Conservatives have come a very long way since the presidency of George W. Bush — a very long way in a bad direction. Rachel Maddow lets right wingers speak for themselves on the subject of Egypt, and it’s not pretty.
1 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:29:50am |
And I bet Ron Paul will win the CPAC presidential straw poll again.
| 3 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:35:05am |
Beck may be the most obviously crazy, but the others are really saying the same thing.
| 4 |
Varek Raith Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:35:13am |
| 5 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:40:39am |
Beck on this mythical insurrection: “I don’t know how long it will take. It could happen overnight. It could take months or years.”
Well gee. Thanks for the specifics, Nostradamus. How have we survived without you until now? =P
It’s also convenient that having such a vague timeline allows Beck to keep fearmongering about this caliphate of his indefinitely, which is the point. The more rubes who buy gold, store food, and buy seeds, the richer he gets.
| 6 |
Jimmah Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:42:04am |
Beck desperately WANTS Egypt to succumb to Islamism. Or ‘Islamocommiefeminism’, to more closely approximate his ‘thinking’.
| 7 |
Varek Raith Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:42:27am |
Why is Beck dressed like he’s going to go adventuring in some goblin infested dungeon???
| 8 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:43:06am |
re: #7 Varek Raith
Why is Beck dressed like he’s going to go adventuring in some goblin infested dungeon???
He’s a prophet, don’tcha know.
| 9 |
Varek Raith Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:44:10am |
| 10 |
Jimmah Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:44:28am |
re: #7 Varek Raith
Why is Beck dressed like he’s going to go adventuring in some goblin infested dungeon???
lol I thought maybe it was some kind of ‘Moses’ costume.
| 11 |
Varek Raith Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:45:01am |
| 12 |
okonkolo Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:46:34am |
Frank Gaffney is basically 50s john Birch Society 2.0, swapping communists for Muslims. Beck is easy to dismiss as a buffoon, but guys like Gaffney are purported “experts” that are taken seriously by some and they are just off the rails.
| 13 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:46:46am |
| 14 |
Tigger2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:46:49am |
If this had happened under Bush all of those right wing pundits would have been screaming how great it is that Egypt wants a Demacratic Government in their country.
They would be praising Bush for spreading Democracy.
| 15 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:48:04am |
| 16 |
TedStriker Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:49:24am |
Wow…while the other wingnuts in that piece were not making any sense, Beck takes the cake. He is definitely batshit crazy…and taking his audience for the ride.
/Glenn, you say I can go to hell, you’ll be going there first on a E ticket…
| 17 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:50:12am |
re: #6 Jimmah
Beck desperately WANTS Egypt to succumb to Islamism. Or ‘Islamocommiefeminism’, to more closely approximate his ‘thinking’.
Well, yes. Crisis is good for business.
I myself am pretty worried about where Egypt is going…although clearly not as worried as Mr. Beck.
| 18 |
Varek Raith Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:51:04am |
re: #16 talon_262
Wow…while the other wingnuts in that piece were not making any sense, Beck takes the cake. He is definitely batshit crazy…and taking his audience for the ride.
/Glenn, you say I can go to hell, you’ll be going there first on a E ticket…
Whoa, now!
We don’t need the likes of Beck down here in Hell!
| 19 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:52:23am |
re: #8 Lidane
He’s a prophet, don’tcha know.
I would not be all that surprised if he claimed the title in all earnestness one of these fine days.
What DO you have to do to get booted from the LDS church, anyway?
| 20 |
Gus Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:52:55am |
So if you watch the commentators from around 3:00 the reasoning you find there is counter to our efforts at nation building in Iraq. So what about the efforts in Iraq to install a democracy?
| 21 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:54:28am |
re: #20 Gus 802
So if you watch the commentators from around 3:00 the reasoning you find there is counter to our efforts at nation building in Iraq. So what about the efforts in Iraq to install a democracy?
The POTUS is a Democrat. These people have to suddenly argue against everything they spent eight years arguing for when Bush was in office.
| 22 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:55:00am |
re: #20 Gus 802
So if you watch the commentators from around 3:00 the reasoning you find there is counter to our efforts at nation building in Iraq. So what about the efforts in Iraq to install a democracy?
Misguided! Unconstitutional! Waste of money! Democratism!
/Paulian
| 24 |
Gus Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:55:46am |
Fox News (version 2011) to Middle Easterners — no democracy for you! In other words, all of the rhetoric regarding Iraq before 2009 was a bunch of lies. The option out after they didn’t find any WMDs (which there wasn’t any) was to say it was to bring “freedom” to the Iraqis and remove Saddam Hussein from power. If form follows function (or something like that) then they shouldn’t have ever removed Saddam Hussein from power and instead supported his “secular” form of government.
| 26 |
Targetpractice Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:56:44am |
re: #20 Gus 802
So if you watch the commentators from around 3:00 the reasoning you find there is counter to our efforts at nation building in Iraq. So what about the efforts in Iraq to install a democracy?
It’s because the people of Egypt deposed Mubarak and have set the course for democracy in their nation without “Shock and Awe.” The Right seems to believe that the only regime change that works is when you drop a 2,000lb JDAM down on the head a dictator who used to be our ally-of-convenience.
| 27 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:56:53am |
re: #14 Tigger2
If this had happened under Bush all of those right wing pundits would have been screaming how great it is that Egypt wants a Demacratic Government in their country.
They would be praising Bush for spreading Democracy.
I much prefer Obama’s Dignity Doctrine to the Bush Doctrine.
Obama yesterday: “This is the power of human dignity and it can never be denied. The Egyptians have inspired us and they’ve done so by putting the lie to the idea that justice is best gained through violence.”
Refuting Bin Laden and Bush at the same time.
| 28 |
Gus Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:57:36am |
re: #26 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
It’s because the people of Egypt deposed Mubarak and have set the course for democracy in their nation without “Shock and Awe.” The Right seems to believe that the only regime change that works is when you drop a 2,000lb JDAM down on the head a dictator who used to be our ally-of-convenience.
I think so. It’s the military fetish. Or something.
| 29 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:58:55am |
Could Glenn Beck, Frank Gafferty, and all those people be any more of douchebags?
| 30 |
blueraven Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:59:27am |
Obama wants to give Muslims the right to vote!!!
| 31 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:59:38am |
Meanwhile, yesterday on Sproul Plaza, a young man informed me, shouting and laughing and showing off for his friends, that ‘the Zionists’ should be scared of democracy in Egypt, because ‘now they’re free to hate you’.
| 32 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:00:00am |
re: #26 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
It’s because the people of Egypt deposed Mubarak and have set the course for democracy in their nation without “Shock and Awe.
In other words, they chose it for themselves without having an invading army do it for them. That should give people hope that Egypt will stabilize faster, IMO. They wanted Mubarak gone, and they got it, on their terms.
If any country has a chance of creating a more stable democracy in the ME right now, it’s Egypt, because of the way all this came about.
| 33 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:00:32am |
her gig is kinda sloppy, it needs to be cleaned up around the edges….she has a long way to go to match Becks clean, smooth delivery but obviously she’s trying her best to Beck up
| 34 |
okonkolo Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:00:56am |
re: #27 recusancy
The refuting Bin Laden point is excellent. He claimed that only his type of extreme Islamic uprising could free Muslims from their corrupt leaders (and ones friendly with the West). This really is potentially a legitimate blow to Bin Laden’s ideology.
| 35 |
Targetpractice Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:01:06am |
re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist
Meanwhile, yesterday on Sproul Plaza, a young man informed me, shouting and laughing and showing off for his friends, that ‘the Zionists’ should be scared of democracy in Egypt, because ‘now they’re free to hate you’.
That seems to have been the second reason why we should all be cringing and shivering in fear about Egypt right now, that this might mean *GASP!* that a new Arab-Israeli War will break out!
| 36 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:01:50am |
re: #33 albusteve
her gig is kinda sloppy, it needs to be cleaned up around the edges…she has a long way to go to match Becks clean, smooth delivery but obviously she’s trying her best to Beck up
Steve! How are you?
| 37 |
blueraven Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:03:27am |
re: #33 albusteve
her gig is kinda sloppy, it needs to be cleaned up around the edges…she has a long way to go to match Becks clean, smooth delivery but obviously she’s trying her best to Beck up
Who? Maddow?
Glad to see you posting again. Hope you are well!
| 38 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:03:29am |
re: #35 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
That seems to have been the second reason why we should all be cringing and shivering in fear about Egypt right now, that this might mean *GASP!* that a new Arab-Israeli War will break out!
Depending on what emerges over the next year, I can see some potential there.
| 39 |
jaunte Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:03:49am |
re: #33 albusteve
If that’s her goal she’s way too skimpy on the blackboard diagrams and armageddon/antichrist mumbo.
| 40 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:03:50am |
re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist
Meanwhile, yesterday on Sproul Plaza, a young man informed me, shouting and laughing and showing off for his friends, that ‘the Zionists’ should be scared of democracy in Egypt, because ‘now they’re free to hate you’.
I see it as just the opposite. Being more free from their government’s propaganda makes them free to not hate Zionists.
| 41 |
researchok Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:04:10am |
re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist
Depending on what emerges over the next year, I can see some potential there.
Now is the time to be hopeful.
| 42 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:05:07am |
re: #40 wrenchwench
The poll results about support for the treaty and not blaming Israel were very encouraging.
| 43 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:06:12am |
re: #40 wrenchwench
I see it as just the opposite. Being more free from their government’s propaganda makes them free to not hate Zionists.
All that’s happened is that Mubarak is stepping down, and elections are going to be called. A freer Egypt is a possibility. Not a certainty.
| 44 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:06:14am |
George W. Bush must be a very happy man right now. The Egyptian people have affirmed his belief in global democracy and at the same time have rejected the “realist” theory that Arabs love a tyrannical strongman.
“Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow beyond the reach of liberty? Are millions of men and women and children condemned by history or culture to live in despotism? Are they alone never to know freedom and never even to have a choice in the matter?”
The massive and violent demonstrations underway in Egypt, the smaller ones in Jordan and Yemen, and the recent revolt in Tunisia that inspired those events, have affirmed that the answer is no and are exploding, once and for all, the myth of Arab exceptionalism. Arab nations, too, yearn to throw off the secret police, to read a newspaper that the Ministry of Information has not censored and to vote in free elections. The Arab world may not be swept with a broad wave of revolts now, but neither will it soon forget this moment.
Lyndon Johnson’s doctrine of “he’s a son of a bitch, but he’s our son of a bitch” is now defunct.
My congratulations to the Egyptian people. You won.
| 45 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:06:27am |
re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist
Steve! How are you?
pooped out…spent the last week in the hospital, now I’m probably sick…had my 10th surgery to graft my leg wound for good…all’s well, thanks
| 46 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:06:35am |
| 47 |
Targetpractice Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:07:20am |
re: #32 Lidane
In other words, they chose it for themselves without having an invading army do it for them. That should give people hope that Egypt will stabilize faster, IMO. They wanted Mubarak gone, and they got it, on their terms.
If any country has a chance of creating a more stable democracy in the ME right now, it’s Egypt, because of the way all this came about.
I’d say, given our track record as a nation, that I have more hope for Egypt building a successful democratic government than I do for the ones we’ve imposed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Perhaps that will be the Obama Doctrine: Supporting democratic efforts around the globe, regardless of what form they may take.
| 48 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:08:03am |
re: #39 jaunte
If that’s her goal she’s way too skimpy on the blackboard diagrams and armageddon/antichrist mumbo.
well, one step at a time comrade…she might go straight to the power point method
| 49 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:09:12am |
re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist
All that’s happened is that Mubarak is stepping down, and elections are going to be called. A freer Egypt is a possibility. Not a certainty.
That, plus the young folks with electronic devices have a sense of themselves as a political entity. That’s new.
Of course, things could go terribly wrong, or change very little. But there are more possibilities today than there were last week.
| 50 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:09:48am |
re: #42 Obdicut
The poll results about support for the treaty and not blaming Israel were very encouraging.
a shooting war with Israel would be a disaster for Egypt….an impossibility really
| 51 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:10:03am |
I guess for some there will never be any acknowledgment for G.W. that he was correct or had the best intentions…..
The right to having a voice by the People in their government is a wonderful empowerment - but it comes with responsibility.
I think what happened in Gaza and even in Iraq can not be held as a sign of what’s to come in Egypt - but it cannot be ignored either.
I think the likelihood of the MB taking the majority role in Egypt is slim-to-none. But the anti-Israeli feelings could sway future decisions.
| 52 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:10:19am |
It’s fascinating to see all the range of opinions on Egypt from all around the political spectrum, with interesting intersections and opposites. No, really.
| 53 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:10:46am |
re: #37 blueraven
Who? Maddow?
Glad to see you posting again. Hope you are well!
I’m fine thanks….just a little nip and tuck
| 54 |
researchok Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:11:21am |
re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist
I’m hopeful, I’m just not real optimistic.
I have to agreed with you on that.
| 55 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:11:35am |
re: #47 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I’d say, given our track record as a nation, that I have more hope for Egypt building a successful democratic government than I do for the ones we’ve imposed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That’s because we forced the issue in those countries. At the end of the day, the Iraqis and Afghans aren’t going to take kindly to our opinion on how they should run their country, and they’re going to be more hostile to us for it.
Egypt did this entirely on their own. We stayed out of it as much as possible, and really got caught flat-footed in a lot of ways, given the floundering over how to play things before wisely deciding to STFU and let things unfold on their own.
Perhaps that will be the Obama Doctrine: Supporting democratic efforts around the globe, regardless of what form they may take.
That would be interesting. And it definitely gives Beck and the other howler monkeys fits, so it’s at least entertaining in that regard. Heh.
| 56 |
ProBosniaLiberal Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:11:37am |
Again I say good luck to Egypt in their endeavor. I also pray that Algeria follows suit.
Off topic, but I wanted to make a comment about immune systems. Different people have immune systems of different strengths. In my case, mine is fairly good (I hug people with Strep Throat for example, to make them feel a little better, and don’t end up catching it). However, when my immune system fails, it fails hard. I have horrible cold, and my entire body feels like it is falling apart. So there is my spiel about Immune Systems.
| 57 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:11:48am |
Ok, at least she acknowledged towards the end that nobody really knows how this is going to turn out. There’s no doubt that communist-Islamist New world order stuff in nonsense but it’s hard to get around the fact that the Muslim world does have difficulty with democracy and free society. We have propped up dictators but the despotic regimes in the middle east are not all our creations. So far the only real “successful” democracy in the Muslim world has been Turkey. Ataturk specifically designed their constitution to prevent an Islamist takeover and he was correct in doing so. Nutty overblown hysteria aside, this is a valid concern.
| 58 |
researchok Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:12:01am |
re: #50 albusteve
a shooting war with Israel would be a disaster for Egypt…an impossibility really
That is probably true.
| 59 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:13:45am |
re: #40 wrenchwench
I see it as just the opposite. Being more free from their government’s propaganda makes them free to not hate Zionists.
Sorry Wrench but it wasn’t propaganda from Mubarak or his government that perpetrated an anti-Zionist/Israel/Jew mindset.
In fact, it was just the opposite by signing and abiding to the Peace terms.
| 60 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:13:50am |
I think it is important that we keep in mind that this kind of revolt could have never occurred in Iraq under Saddam Hussein.
If you read Kanan Makiya’s Republic of Fear you’ll understand how Saddam’s torture machine exterminated any pro-democratic movement that even showed vital signs of life.
| 61 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:13:51am |
re: #51 Ericus58
I guess for some there will never be any acknowledgment for G.W. that he was correct or had the best intentions…
Good intentions paired with shitty policy.
It’s one thing to try and force democracy, like we did with Iraq. It’s another when it happens without our interference, like in Egypt.
| 62 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:14:22am |
re: #50 albusteve
There you are. I’ was wonder how you were doing just last night. Is all well?
| 63 |
Gus Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:14:59am |
Let’s face it. When push comes to shove the wingnuts and Teabaggers hate George W. Bush. They’ve always hated John McCain who recently applauded Mubarak’s relinquishment of power. Again, if we follow this current round of extremist right wing rhetoric then we should tell the people of Afghanistan that we will, as soon as possible, install a strong arm right wing dictatorship because “democracy is not possible in the Middle East”. Although Afghanistan is actually in South Asia.
| 64 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:15:35am |
re: #44 Max D. Reinhardt
George W. Bush must be a very happy man right now. The Egyptian people have affirmed his belief in global democracy and at the same time have rejected the “realist” theory that Arabs love a tyrannical strongman.
Lyndon Johnson’s doctrine of “he’s a son of a bitch, but he’s our son of a bitch” is now defunct.
My congratulations to the Egyptian people. You won.
He has been vindicated.
| 65 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:17:08am |
re: #64 Winny Spencer
He has been vindicated.
On his general statement with which many will agree? Yeah. On anything else of note, like the Iraq war or torture? No.
| 66 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:17:37am |
re: #64 Winny Spencer
He has been vindicated.
Not really, given that this happened without American interference, and the two countries that Bush tried to impose democracy on — Iraq and Afghanistan — are far from stable after all these years.
Now, if those countries had taken the same path that Egypt has, then yeah. He’d be vindicated. But for now, no. He’s not.
| 67 |
Targetpractice Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:18:22am |
re: #61 Lidane
Good intentions paired with shitty policy.
It’s one thing to try and force democracy, like we did with Iraq. It’s another when it happens without our interference, like in Egypt.
Exactly. Bush may have been right in believing the democracy could be brought to the Middle East, but doing so at the end of a rifle barrel has not worked. It remains to be seen where it can happen in Egypt without our interference, but I am optimistic as to the final result.
| 68 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:18:39am |
re: #62 Killgore Trout
There you are. I’ was wonder how you were doing just last night. Is all well?
yeah, I’ve turned a sharp corner this time…I’m really excited to be healing and healthy again…in a few weeks I should be back to normal, minus half a leg of course, but that’s just a bump in the road bro
| 69 |
researchok Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:18:45am |
re: #59 Ericus58
Sorry Wrench but it wasn’t propaganda from Mubarak or his government that perpetrated an anti-Zionist/Israel/Jew mindset.
In fact, it was just the opposite by signing and abiding to the Peace terms.
I’m not so WW is totally off the mark.
The opponents of the treaty have always exploited the treaty as a foundation for their hate.
If that kind of behavior is less acceptable (admittedly, a big if) there will be changes in what isw socially acceptable.
This is not pie in the sky- Iranian dissidents are pointedly not anti Israel or anti semitic.
| 70 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:19:13am |
re: #63 Gus 802
During the Bush years, “democracy is not possible in the Middle East” was a prevailing argument on the left as well, IIRC.
| 71 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:19:40am |
re: #66 Lidane
Not really, given that this happened without American interference, and the two countries that Bush tried to impose democracy on — Iraq and Afghanistan — are far from stable after all these years.
Now, if those countries had taken the same path that Egypt has, then yeah. He’d be vindicated. But for now, no. He’s not.
You mean this statement made by Bush was false… “Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow beyond the reach of liberty? Are millions of men and women and children condemned by history or culture to live in despotism? Are they alone never to know freedom and never even to have a choice in the matter?”
| 72 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:20:17am |
I’m not sure Egypt and Iraq are really comparable at all. Before the US invasion, Iraq was a closed society ruled by an absolute monster of a dictator. They had very little contact with the outside world, no political freedom, and religious rivalries kept in check by brutal repression.
Egypt is a much more open society, even with Mubarak’s despotic rule; they have a thriving tourist industry, a real middle class, and secularism is much more prevalent than in Iraq.
Iraq never would have had a revolution, as long as Saddam and his family were in charge, which would have been forever.
Egypt’s revolution arose on its own, from the real grassroots, with no leaders — that could only happen in a society with a degree of openness in the first place.
I think Egypt has a good chance to come out of this better than they were before.
| 73 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:20:43am |
re: #70 Winny Spencer
During the Bush years, “democracy is not possible in the Middle East” was a prevailing argument on the left as well, IIRC.
Not anyplace on the left I was hanging out at.
| 74 |
Gus Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:20:53am |
re: #70 Winny Spencer
During the Bush years, “democracy is not possible in the Middle East” was a prevailing argument on the left as well, IIRC.
Ah, you might be correct. Well, I guess we can’t say anything then can we?
| 75 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:21:21am |
re: #60 Max D. Reinhardt
I think it is important that we keep in mind that this kind of revolt could have never occurred in Iraq under Saddam Hussein.
If you read Kanan Makiya’s Republic of Fear you’ll understand how Saddam’s torture machine exterminated any pro-democratic movement that even showed vital signs of life.
Afghanistan, Iraq and Egypt are all totally different situations…as for me, Bush deserves credit for shoving the ME into a new paradigm that might benefit everyone involved
| 76 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:21:34am |
re: #68 albusteve
yeah, I’ve turned a sharp corner this time…I’m really excited to be healing and healthy again…in a few weeks I should be back to normal, minus half a leg of course, but that’s just a bump in the road bro
Good news!
| 77 |
Jadespring Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:22:22am |
re: #49 wrenchwench
That, plus the young folks with electronic devices have a sense of themselves as a political entity. That’s new.
Of course, things could go terribly wrong, or change very little. But there are more possibilities today than there were last week.
One thing I have noticed over the course of the past couple of weeks and following those with the electronic devices is that a good lot of them while Egyptian have spent time in ‘the West’ or connected with the west. Many list in their profiles dual locations including the US. Many have done part of their schooling outside of the country. They’re not isolated in this regard. . One of the consequences of this 30 year regime is that a lot of Egyptians and young ones sought opportunities elsewhere. Lots of talk about brothers and sisters, sons and daughters who no longer feel like they have to leave to get somewhere. And lots of calls for people to come back now or comments that now people feel they can think about coming back whether because now they won’t be under threat because of their ‘thinking’ about the regime and democracy or now there is the possibility of actually building something there.
This dynamic is one way that ‘democracy’ and ‘democratic values’ are exported or better imported. An unintended consequence of a regime that over the years has either forced people out or made people feel they needed to get out to get the type of life they desired.
| 78 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:22:30am |
re: #71 Walter L. Newton
You mean this statement made by Bush was false… “Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow beyond the reach of liberty? Are millions of men and women and children condemned by history or culture to live in despotism? Are they alone never to know freedom and never even to have a choice in the matter?”
Sure. Bush had a special vision, and now Egypt is reaping the profits.
Never mind that his administration (like Clinton’s before him and Obama’s after him) left Mubarak in place, and continued to give him money and validation.
Clearly, Bush’s rhetoric took us straight to this moment in time. The Egyptians would never have thought to take to the streets without his inspiration words.
Or something.
| 79 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:22:36am |
re: #71 Walter L. Newton
You mean this statement made by Bush was false… “Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow beyond the reach of liberty? Are millions of men and women and children condemned by history or culture to live in despotism? Are they alone never to know freedom and never even to have a choice in the matter?”
As a general statement? No. He’s not wrong. Obama has said much the same thing since taking office, which Maddow points out at the beginning of her segment.
HOWEVER, where Bush has NOT been vindicated is in the imposition of democracy in the ME. He tried doing it by force in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that hasn’t worked. Egypt, OTOH, did this entirely without us interfering. It was their fight, their voices, and their people who overthrew Mubarak on their own terms. We had nothing to do with it.
That’s the difference, and where Bush has most definitely not been vindicated.
| 80 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:22:52am |
re: #66 Lidane
Not really, given that this happened without American interference, and the two countries that Bush tried to impose democracy on — Iraq and Afghanistan — are far from stable after all these years.
Now, if those countries had taken the same path that Egypt has, then yeah. He’d be vindicated. But for now, no. He’s not.
Was anyone apart from Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan against the excursion into Afghanistan? It was hardly a war waged solely with the purpose of “imposing democracy”.
| 81 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:23:08am |
re: #72 Charles
I think Egypt has a good chance to come out of this better than they were before.
I think so too.
| 82 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:23:31am |
re: #70 Winny Spencer
During the Bush years, “democracy is not possible in the Middle East” was a prevailing argument on the left as well, IIRC.
No. The argument was against flattening a nation and rebuilding it. Not democracy. Nice spin though.
| 83 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:23:49am |
re: #63 Gus 802
Let’s face it. When push comes to shove the wingnuts and Teabaggers hate George W. Bush.
Whenever I tell a Tea Partier that I like Dubya more than Reagan, they look at me like I’m from Massachusetts. I can defend Medicare Part-D, the No Child Left Behind Act, the USA PATRIOT Act, and the Iraq War until I’m blue in the face, but they’ll never listen.
After reading (well, at least skimming) through Sean Hannity’s latest book of talking points, he tries to convince his audience that Bush deviated from “conservative principles” when Bush passed NCLB and Medicare Part-D, but he and his subordinates were cheerleaders for them back in the day.
Oh how easily we forget.
| 84 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:23:51am |
I will give Bush credit, the man does seem to genuinely value smal letter d, democracy, and that’s more than can be said about many others like Palin, Huckabee who have given the Obama administration a hard time for its position on this. I don’t know if he’s vindicated or not but I think GW Bush will appear more and more in coming years to be seen like his father is, at least that’s what he’s shown me thus far.
| 85 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:24:06am |
re: #82 recusancy
No. The argument was against flattening a nation and rebuilding it. Not democracy. Nice spin though.
Yeah, this.
| 86 |
Targetpractice Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:25:26am |
re: #82 recusancy
No. The argument was against flattening a nation and rebuilding it. Not democracy. Nice spin though.
The Left, as far as I remember, seemed to point out that the old adage of “Once your have’em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow” didn’t work in Vietnam, and it wasn’t going to work in Iraq.
So far, they seem to be right. The government in Iraq may be democratic, but it is by no means stable or free.
| 87 |
researchok Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:25:57am |
re: #79 Lidane
As a general statement? No. He’s not wrong. Obama has said much the same thing since taking office, which Maddow points out at the beginning of her segment.
HOWEVER, where Bush has NOT been vindicated is in the imposition of democracy in the ME. He tried doing it by force in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that hasn’t worked. Egypt, OTOH, did this entirely without us interfering. It was their fight, their voices, and their people who overthrew Mubarak on their own terms. We had nothing to do with it.
That’s the difference, and where Bush has most definitely not been vindicated.
So we are meant to be the world’s policemen?
| 88 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:26:22am |
re: #80 Winny Spencer
Was anyone apart from Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan against the excursion into Afghanistan? It was hardly a war waged solely with the purpose of “imposing democracy”.
I’m a liberal and I favored going into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. After all these years, though, you really have to ask if we’re just wasting our time and money.
Iraq, OTOH, was entirely a war of choice and one that was done to try and force regime change into one we liked better. It’s still not stable there, because we forced the issue and destabilized them first.
| 89 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:27:25am |
re: #81 Killgore Trout
I think so too.
absolutely….there is a huge pool of intellectual and progressive thinking people in Egypt where leadership will emerge….Egypt’s future is very bright
| 90 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:28:15am |
I’ve also been thinking about what might happen with Gaza and Israel. When the Israelis left Gaza they tried to encourage Egypt to establish a presence in the strip to maintain security and Egypt wanted no part of it. It would be great if Egypt could somehow get Gaza under control and open the border to trade and supplies after the Israelis lift the blockade. I think there’s a real possibility of some sort of peace.
| 91 |
Tigger2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:28:46am |
re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist
Sure. Bush had a special vision, and now Egypt is reaping the profits.
Never mind that his administration (like Clinton’s before him and Obama’s after him) left Mubarak in place, and continued to give him money and validation.
Clearly, Bush’s rhetoric took us straight to this moment in time. The Egyptians would never have thought to take to the streets without his inspiration words.
Or something.
I dont think President Obama’s Speech In Cairo can be forgotten in this
matter.
| 92 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:28:53am |
re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist
Never mind that his administration (like Clinton’s before him and Obama’s after him) left Mubarak in place, and continued to give him money and validation.
I don’t really think that’s fair. The entrenched State Department bureaucracy tends to drag its feet whenever a President tries to make a major adjustment to our foreign policy.
A lot of State workers still have a Cold War mentality where they think we should prop up a dictator to stop a takeover by an unfriendly group.
| 93 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:29:03am |
re: #87 researchok
So we are meant to be the world’s policemen?
Of course not. We’re not in charge of the world, as much as the American Exceptionalists would like to believe we are.
We have to be engaged in the world, since things are far too globalized and interconnected to ever isolate ourselves. We have to maintain our interests. HOWEVER, we don’t have the right to force democracy on others, like we did in Iraq. We have to let countries come to it on their own, like Egypt did.
| 94 |
researchok Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:29:13am |
re: #90 Killgore Trout
I’ve also been thinking about what might happen with Gaza and Israel. When the Israelis left Gaza they tried to encourage Egypt to establish a presence in the strip to maintain security and Egypt wanted no part of it. It would be great if Egypt could somehow get Gaza under control and open the border to trade and supplies after the Israelis lift the blockade. I think there’s a real possibility of some sort of peace.
I don’t think Egypt wants anything to do with Gaza.
Lots of bad blood between them and Hamas.
| 95 |
blueraven Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:29:34am |
re: #57 Killgore Trout
Ok, at least she acknowledged towards the end that nobody really knows how this is going to turn out. There’s no doubt that communist-Islamist New world order stuff in nonsense but it’s hard to get around the fact that the Muslim world does have difficulty with democracy and free society. We have propped up dictators but the despotic regimes in the middle east are not all our creations. So far the only real “successful” democracy in the Muslim world has been Turkey. Ataturk specifically designed their constitution to prevent an Islamist takeover and he was correct in doing so. Nutty overblown hysteria aside, this is a valid concern.
It is a real concern, but these people (Beck and the others) make us appear to be a bunch of quivering idiots, so afraid of the freedom of other people.
At the same time they demand freedom to carry weapons, with no regulations whatsoever, practice hate speech without retribution, and so on.
It makes us look like weak, scared hypocrites. The radicals can smell the fear.
| 96 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:30:46am |
re: #88 Lidane
I’m a liberal and I favored going into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. After all these years, though, you really have to ask if we’re just wasting our time and money.
I’m starting to faith too. I see more hope for Iraq than Afghanistan.
| 97 |
justaminute Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:31:05am |
Any religion imposed on a free society can look like an Islamic one. When a particular religion is codified into law it brings resentment. Iran is not making more faithful Muslims it’s driving people from that religion. The first book of the Bible said that in the Garden of Eden that God put a tree there for Adam and Eve and told them not to eat, which they did. God gave them a choice and now it seems that men are always trying to take it away.
| 98 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:31:43am |
“They had this ideology that he bought in to, this ideology that somehow the United States in waging war and taking over countries somehow was fighting for freedom, and somehow in doing so we would encourage a moderation in the Arab world. Well, history would have taught him, and I know he just put down history by quoting Jefferson which was unfair to Jefferson, history would have told him that in the Arab world, it’s the Arab street, it’s the regular people out there, the vast population in numbers, who oppose the state of Israel, who have always been radicalized. It’s been the leaders that you could deal with, the potentates, the kings we set up over there, the British did, the people that were propped up with oil wealth. We could deal with those people, but the minute the street had a hand in the politics over there, it was radical.”
“The idea that somehow the mechanical nature of holding elections, somehow moderates a country. He said it again in his speech tonight that somehow elections and democracy and freedom lead to a moderation on the part of these people. Well, these people have a problem in the Middle East. They want to fight. They don’t like Israel. They don’t like the West. There’s a real seething anger over there towards the West. We better start to figure it out instead of retreating to these notions that he’s been carrying around with him ever since he met Dick Cheney and the neo-conservatives.”
- Chris Matthews
| 99 |
CuriousLurker Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:32:06am |
Ah, yes, Beck and his Islamicommies.
Last summer (who knows, maybe even earlier) the right decided on making Islamophobia their platform for the 2012 election cycle; apparently they didn’t have a Plan B.
I’m sure it never occurred to them (as it didn’t to most people) that some Arab countries would suddenly stand up and start taking steps toward democracy on their own. That wouldn’t be a problem if they weren’t so inflexible and didn’t require a boogieman to scare people into voting for them.
They’ve done a fine job of painting themselves into a corner that requires them to be against democracy in the Middle East. I’m sure the religious far-right doesn’t mind a bit as they’d love nothing better than to be the star actors in a production of The Crusades: Redux, but the more realistic (if cowed) members of the GOP & their strategists must be desperately brainstorming for a way to salvage things.
I’m sure the Arab media is reporting on all the crap being spewed, and the Arab world is taking note of who is voicing moral support to the efforts of the Tunisians & Egyptians and who isn’t. It’ll make things very tricky for the GOP in the future when/if they ever manage to regain the White House. Talk about bad karma.
I really hate to see this, but what can I say? GOP, decades ago you got in bed with some really bad partners, then beginning in 2008 you invited even worse characters to get under the sheets with you. Now you’re going to have to deal with your choices. Sorta reminds me of Looking for Mr. Goodbar, and we all know how THAT turned out.
Oh, and hi, everyone. *waves at room*
| 100 |
researchok Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:32:19am |
re: #93 Lidane
Of course not. We’re not in charge of the world, as much as the American Exceptionalists would like to believe we are.
We have to be engaged in the world, since things are far too globalized and interconnected to ever isolate ourselves. We have to maintain our interests. HOWEVER, we don’t have the right to force democracy on others, like we did in Iraq. We have to let countries come to it on their own, like Egypt did.
I absolutely agree.
That said, Bush’s remarks were on point. He planted the seeds in a lot of ways in my opinion.
I recall reading a while back an Iraqi blogger who noted that even if the governments fails, they understood Bush believed in them enough to try and feed them freedom. No one else had done that, he wrote.
| 101 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:32:26am |
re: #94 researchok
I don’t think Egypt wants anything to do with Gaza.
Lots of bad blood between them and Hamas.
I think much of that is because Mubarak sided with the PA instead of Hamas. I think maybe now there’s a chance that Egypt might be able to influence the situation in Gaza. The people of Gaza could have peace and prosperity instantly if they wanted it and maybe a new Egyptian government could convince them of that.
| 102 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:32:44am |
re: #88 Lidane
I’m a liberal and I favored going into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. After all these years, though, you really have to ask if we’re just wasting our time and money.
Iraq, OTOH, was entirely a war of choice and one that was done to try and force regime change into one we liked better. It’s still not stable there, because we forced the issue and destabilized them first.
so what was the alternative, using your convenient 20/20 hindsight?…allowing continued genocide and a possibly nuclear armed maniac?
| 103 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:32:47am |
re: #93 Lidane
HOWEVER, we don’t have the right to force democracy on others, like we did in Iraq. We have to let countries come to it on their own, like Egypt did.
It worked for Germany, Italy, Japan, Panama, and to some extent South Korea (but it happened differently there, through sanctions).
| 104 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:34:32am |
re: #93 Lidane
Of course not. We’re not in charge of the world, as much as the American Exceptionalists would like to believe we are.
We have to be engaged in the world, since things are far too globalized and interconnected to ever isolate ourselves. We have to maintain our interests. HOWEVER, we don’t have the right to force democracy on others, like we did in Iraq. We have to let countries come to it on their own, like Egypt did.
impossible regarding Iraq
| 105 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:34:43am |
re: #102 albusteve
so what was the alternative, using your convenient 20/20 hindsight?…allowing continued genocide and a possibly nuclear armed maniac?
What “continued genocide”?
| 106 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:35:30am |
World’s best news photo is Time cover of disfigured Afghan woman
[Link: news.yahoo.com…]
The accompanying article was titled: “What happens if we leave Afghanistan”.
“The image was captured by Jodi Bieber, a photographer from South Africa. The woman it depicts is Bibi Aisha, who was 18 when she left her husband, a Taliban fighter, over claims of domestic abuse. In an act of retribution, the Taliban allowed him to cut off her ears and nose. Aisha’s husband abandoned her after the assault; American soldiers and aid workers later rescued her and transported her to the United States—where she now lives—for reconstructive surgery.
Time ignited a firestorm of debate over the suitability of the woman’s photo when the magazine’s editors featured it on the cover last August. Detractors called it “emotional blackmail” and “war porn,” according to the New York Times, while others saw it as “a powerful appeal to conscience.”“
The reasons for sending our military into Afghanistan in the first place were valid and just. And seeing how the previous Clinton Administration and how Democratic leaders were also stating Saddam’s intentions towards WMD’s… well, I guess Iraq will always be where good people can disagree.
| 107 |
researchok Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:35:39am |
re: #101 Killgore Trout
I think much of that is because Mubarak sided with the PA instead of Hamas. I think maybe now there’s a chance that Egypt might be able to influence the situation in Gaza. The people of Gaza could have peace and prosperity instantly if they wanted it and maybe a new Egyptian government could convince them of that.
Maybe- but recall Hamas is the Palestinian chapter of the MB- and that is a whole other set of baggage.
They deliberately set out to usurp Mubarak and the military and there were terror attacks by Hamas on Egyptian targets.
Still, I really hope you are right about all this. Like SFZ, I’m hopeful but not altogether optimistic.
| 108 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:36:38am |
re: #102 albusteve
so what was the alternative, using your convenient 20/20 hindsight?…allowing continued genocide and a possibly nuclear armed maniac?
I had 20/20 foresight, since anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together could have told you that invading Iraq and overthrowing Saddam without any kind of plan in place, like we did, would lead to the current destabilized clusterfuck that still exists there today. It was the bullshit artists trying to suggest that it would be easy and that we’d be greeted as liberators that got it all wrong.
Also, the idea that he was ever anywhere close to nuclear is laughable. There were no WMD. Ever. It was all a lie.
| 109 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:36:54am |
re: #90 Killgore Trout
I’ve also been thinking about what might happen with Gaza and Israel. When the Israelis left Gaza they tried to encourage Egypt to establish a presence in the strip to maintain security and Egypt wanted no part of it. It would be great if Egypt could somehow get Gaza under control and open the border to trade and supplies after the Israelis lift the blockade. I think there’s a real possibility of some sort of peace.
Walk me through that. Who do you envision coming in who will have influence over Hamas, willingness to get involved in the hot mess that is Gaza, and the intent to use that to work cooperatively and peacefully with Gaza and Israel?
| 110 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:37:12am |
re: #102 albusteve
You better get to your local recruiters office. We’re going to need you when we invade all the despots throughout the world.
| 111 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:37:57am |
re: #103 Max D. Reinhardt
It worked for Germany, Italy, Japan, Panama, and to some extent South Korea (but it happened differently there, through sanctions).
Germany, Italy and Japan became democracies after WW2. That’s hardly a fair comparison to either Egypt or Iraq.
| 112 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:38:05am |
re: #72 Charles
I’m not sure Egypt and Iraq are really comparable at all. Before the US invasion, Iraq was a closed society ruled by an absolute monster of a dictator. They had very little contact with the outside world, no political freedom, and religious rivalries kept in check by brutal repression.
Egypt is a much more open society, even with Mubarak’s despotic rule; they have a thriving tourist industry, a real middle class, and secularism is much more prevalent than in Iraq.
Iraq never would have had a revolution, as long as Saddam and his family were in charge, which would have been forever.
Egypt’s revolution arose on its own, from the real grassroots, with no leaders — that could only happen in a society with a degree of openness in the first place.
I think Egypt has a good chance to come out of this better than they were before.
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
| 113 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:38:34am |
Continued genocide, LOL. Such an excuse with 20/20 hindsight, indeed. Too bad Colin Powell did not mention the ongoing “genocide” during his UN presentation. Somehow it was all about the mythical WMD.
| 114 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:39:07am |
re: #108 Lidane
I had 20/20 foresight, since anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together could have told you that invading Iraq and overthrowing Saddam without any kind of plan in place, like we did, would lead to the current destabilized clusterfuck that still exists there today. It was the bullshit artists trying to suggest that it would be easy and that we’d be greeted as liberators that got it all wrong.
Also, the idea that he was ever anywhere close to nuclear is laughable. There were no WMD. Ever. It was all a lie.
Well, Cheney was right before he was wrong on Iraq.
| 115 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:39:40am |
re: #94 researchok
I don’t think Egypt wants anything to do with Gaza.
Lots of bad blood between them and Hamas.
There is actually more favorable views of Hamas ( and Hezbollah) in JORDAN than in Egypt.
Jordan has the potential of being very problematic…
| 116 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:39:49am |
re: #96 Max D. Reinhardt
I’m starting to faith too. I see more hope for Iraq than Afghanistan.
Afghanistan is a black hole….all options last year were bad, we simply cannot continue to shed lives over there for so little in return…if Karzai does not answer the bell with regard to the Taliban, there is nothing we can do for them…the guy is monumentally corrupt and life is cheap these days
| 117 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:40:33am |
re: #113 Sergey Romanov
Continued genocide, LOL. Such an excuse with 20/20 hindsight, indeed. Too bad Colin Powell did not mention the ongoing “genocide” during his UN presentation. Somehow it was all about the mythical WMD.
Exactly. And I see people here are still clinging to the “he might get nukes” bs. Saddam’s rag tag team couldn’t even get conventional war fare right.
| 118 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:41:42am |
re: #110 recusancy
You better get to your local recruiters office. We’re going to need you when we invade all the despots throughout the world.
There was no despot in 2003 with a worse track record than Saddam.
| 119 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:41:44am |
re: #109 SanFranciscoZionist
Walk me through that. Who do you envision coming in who will have influence over Hamas, willingness to get involved in the hot mess that is Gaza, and the intent to use that to work cooperatively and peacefully with Gaza and Israel?
I’m not sure who specifically could do this but I suspect the Egyptian people don’t want to participate in the blockade of Gaza and they would probably want to open the border without the possibility of Palestinian terrorists blowing up resorts in the Sinai again. Egypt has a vested interest in seeing a peaceful and prosperous Gaza.
| 120 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:41:52am |
re: #92 Max D. Reinhardt
I don’t really think that’s fair. The entrenched State Department bureaucracy tends to drag its feet whenever a President tries to make a major adjustment to our foreign policy.
A lot of State workers still have a Cold War mentality where they think we should prop up a dictator to stop a takeover by an unfriendly group.
I think it’s entirely fair. Mubarak was our guy until he landed on his ass.
| 121 |
researchok Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:42:12am |
re: #115 Ericus58
There is actually more favorable views of Hamas ( and Hezbollah) in JORDAN than in Egypt.
Jordan has the potential of being very problematic…
Huge problems for a whole lot of reasons, not the least of which is the resident Palestinian population and the attempt by Arafat’s PLO on King Hussein’s life.
| 122 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:42:16am |
re: #105 Sergey Romanov
What “continued genocide”?
do you want to argue that Hussein was not killing his own people at will?…are you going to somehow spin that?
| 123 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:43:02am |
re: #113 Sergey Romanov
Continued genocide, LOL. Such an excuse with 20/20 hindsight, indeed. Too bad Colin Powell did not mention the ongoing “genocide” during his UN presentation. Somehow it was all about the mythical WMD.
I personally do not find genocidal dictators particularly funny, but each to his own.
| 124 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:43:23am |
re: #122 albusteve
do you want to argue that Hussein was not killing his own people at will?…are you going to somehow spin that?
You claimed a “continued genocide”, please substantiate your bizarre claim.
| 125 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:43:40am |
re: #108 Lidane
Also, the idea that he was ever anywhere close to nuclear is laughable. There were no WMD. Ever. It was all a lie.
Why would Bush lie about something that would be disprove as soon as we invaded?
Saddam Hussein destroyed most of his WMDs after the First Gulf War, but he kept the knowledge and the infrastructure. He could’ve started again if his “sanctions are killing babies” propaganda had worked. (The sanctions weren’t killing the Iraqi people, it was Saddam and his cronies who were stealing and re-selling all the food and medical aid being sent to Iraq under Oil-for-Food.)
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
| 126 |
researchok Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:43:52am |
re: #119 Killgore Trout
I’m not sure who specifically could do this but I suspect the Egyptian people don’t want to participate in the blockade of Gaza and they would probably want to open the border without the possibility of Palestinian terrorists blowing up resorts in the Sinai again. Egypt has a vested interest in seeing a peaceful and prosperous Gaza.
Yup.
The question however is, does Hamas have a lot to gain with an open and peaceful border with Egypt and the peace treaty recognized?
| 127 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:44:06am |
re: #102 albusteve
so what was the alternative, using your convenient 20/20 hindsight?…allowing continued genocide and a possibly nuclear armed maniac?
We allow continued genocide all the time.
If that’s the standard we’re now using to justify Iraq, wake me up when we bring democracy to the Congo. I’ll cheer for that one.
| 128 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:44:38am |
re: #99 CuriousLurker
Oh, and hi, everyone. *waves at room*
Where ya been?? You have a life or something?
| 129 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:44:55am |
re: #123 Winny Spencer
I personally do not find genocidal dictators particularly funny, but each to his own.
Way to miss the point and raise an idiotic strawman, doofus.
| 130 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:45:26am |
re: #106 Ericus58
World’s best news photo is Time cover of disfigured Afghan woman
[Link: news.yahoo.com…]
The accompanying article was titled: “What happens if we leave Afghanistan”.
“The image was captured by Jodi Bieber, a photographer from South Africa. The woman it depicts is Bibi Aisha, who was 18 when she left her husband, a Taliban fighter, over claims of domestic abuse. In an act of retribution, the Taliban allowed him to cut off her ears and nose. Aisha’s husband abandoned her after the assault; American soldiers and aid workers later rescued her and transported her to the United States—where she now lives—for reconstructive surgery.
Time ignited a firestorm of debate over the suitability of the woman’s photo when the magazine’s editors featured it on the cover last August. Detractors called it “emotional blackmail” and “war porn,” according to the New York Times, while others saw it as “a powerful appeal to conscience.”“
The reasons for sending our military into Afghanistan in the first place were valid and just. And seeing how the previous Clinton Administration and how Democratic leaders were also stating Saddam’s intentions towards WMD’s… well, I guess Iraq will always be where good people can disagree.
I backed Afghanistan, but the idea that we went into save women and children from tribal brutality is absolutely ridiculous.
| 131 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:46:03am |
Just wish I could have been more politically mature in 2003. I have to admit that a lot of my opposition ot Iraq was driven by my dislike for Bush and that administration. I do wish they had planned things better though, I will say that.
| 132 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:46:16am |
re: #108 Lidane
I had 20/20 foresight, since anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together could have told you that invading Iraq and overthrowing Saddam without any kind of plan in place, like we did, would lead to the current destabilized clusterfuck that still exists there today. It was the bullshit artists trying to suggest that it would be easy and that we’d be greeted as liberators that got it all wrong.
Also, the idea that he was ever anywhere close to nuclear is laughable. There were no WMD. Ever. It was all a lie.
Mysteriously, however, we never seemed to come to any official realization of that. The shit just wasn’t there, and we never blinked.
| 133 |
CuriousLurker Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:46:48am |
re: #113 Sergey Romanov
Continued genocide, LOL. Such an excuse with 20/20 hindsight, indeed. Too bad Colin Powell did not mention the ongoing “genocide” during his UN presentation. Somehow it was all about the mythical WMD.
Must be a reference to Kurdish genocide/Helabja, except—oopsie!—we were still supporting Saddam back then due to the Iran-Iraq War.
| 134 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:46:55am |
re: #122 albusteve
do you want to argue that Hussein was not killing his own people at will?…are you going to somehow spin that?
And before substantiating your claim of “continued genocide” you might want to re-read the 1948 convention.
| 135 |
researchok Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:47:04am |
re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist
I backed Afghanistan, but the idea that we went into save women and children from tribal brutality is absolutely ridiculous.
What so you have against feel good, touchy feely journalism?
//
| 136 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:47:43am |
re: #127 SanFranciscoZionist
If that’s the standard we’re now using to justify Iraq, wake me up when we bring democracy to the Congo. I’ll cheer for that one.
In a way, we did try to democratize the Congo. In the 1990s, the Clinton Administration cut off all aid to Mobutu Sese Seko’s kleptocratic regime which brought about his downfall in 1995.
| 137 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:48:03am |
re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist
Mysteriously, however, we never seemed to come to any official realization of that. The shit just wasn’t there, and we never blinked.
It amazes me that people still argue that Saddam had WMD.
| 138 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:48:28am |
re: #127 SanFranciscoZionist
We allow continued genocide all the time.
If that’s the standard we’re now using to justify Iraq, wake me up when we bring democracy to the Congo. I’ll cheer for that one.
true enough, but that’s my point…either shit or get off the pot and some here refuse to address the alternatives to allowing Hussein to mock the UN, slaughter Iraqis and pursue his mythical WMDs…they mock me instead, typical
| 139 |
Varek Raith Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:48:32am |
re: #127 SanFranciscoZionist
We allow continued genocide all the time.
If that’s the standard we’re now using to justify Iraq, wake me up when we bring democracy to the Congo. I’ll cheer for that one.
Or half the freaking planet where this crap occurs.
| 140 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:48:42am |
re: #133 CuriousLurker
Must be a reference to Kurdish genocide/Helabja, except—oopsie!—we were still supporting Saddam back then due to the Iran-Iraq War.
It cannot be a reference to that since it was a past genocide, not a continued one. Still waiting.
PS: past genocides of course cannot serve as a justification for a war, since such only increases the number of dead and maimed people, and does nothing to bring the dead back to life.
| 141 |
CuriousLurker Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:48:49am |
re: #128 wrenchwench
Where ya been?? You have a life or something?
Sorta. More like politics of the ME fatigue combined with being busy at work.
It’s good to see you—I missed you guys. ;-)
| 142 |
CuriousLurker Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:49:44am |
re: #140 Sergey Romanov
It cannot be a reference to that since it was a past genocide, not a continued one. Still waiting.
PS: past genocides of course cannot serve as a justification for a war, since such only increases the number of dead and maimed people, and does nothing to bring the dead back to life.
Good points.
| 143 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:49:59am |
re: #122 albusteve
do you want to argue that Hussein was not killing his own people at will?…are you going to somehow spin that?
Are you going to argue that we invaded Iraq to stop Saddam from killing Iraqis? Are you somehow trying to spin that?
| 144 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:50:23am |
re: #133 CuriousLurker
Must be a reference to Kurdish genocide/Helabja, except—oopsie!—we were still supporting Saddam back then due to the Iran-Iraq War.
Therefore it doesn’t count!
Stellar logic there, applied with zero compassion for the victims.
| 145 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:50:36am |
re: #138 albusteve
true enough, but that’s my point…either shit or get off the pot and some here refuse to address the alternatives to allowing Hussein to mock the UN, slaughter Iraqis and pursue his mythical WMDs…they mock me instead, typical
Yes, that’s why Bush had to start his war, to stop the slaughter of Iraqis (what slaughter, you might say? Nevermind). Of course, that at the very least 100,000 Iraqis have been slaughtered during the war itself, as well as countless other lives were otherwise ruined, doesn’t count.
| 146 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:51:20am |
re: #139 Varek Raith
Or half the freaking planet where this crap occurs.
then I would expect more outrage at our continued military activity in Afghanistan…where is it?…we need to get out of there ASAP
| 147 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:51:35am |
re: #144 Winny Spencer
Therefore it doesn’t count!
Stellar logic there, applied with zero compassion for the victims.
So you went to war to stop the genocide that… has already been stopped? Guy, you’re not in the Back to the Future movie.
| 148 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:53:38am |
re: #141 CuriousLurker
politics of the ME fatigue
I think that’s going around….
Of course, some are immune.
| 149 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:53:39am |
re: #126 researchok
Yup.
The question however is, does Hamas have a lot to gain with an open and peaceful border with Egypt and the peace treaty recognized?
Hamas certainly won’t be helpful but I think the people of Gaza might see the freedoms and prosperity in Egypt and vote for non-terrorist political parties who could create an environment suitable for business and economic activity.
| 150 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:53:47am |
re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist
Are you going to argue that we invaded Iraq to stop Saddam from killing Iraqis? Are you somehow trying to spin that?
I’m not spinning anything…yes, I would say that was one reason…if invading Iraq was wrong, then invading Afghanistan was just as wrong
| 151 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:54:13am |
re: #145 Sergey Romanov
Yes, that’s why Bush had to start his war, to stop the slaughter of Iraqis (what slaughter, you might say? Nevermind). Of course, that at the very least 100,000 Iraqis have been slaughtered during the war itself, as well as countless other lives were otherwise ruined, doesn’t count.
How do you regret saving lives?
According to estimates from human rights organizations, from 1979 to 2003, Saddam Hussein probably killed 800,000 to 1 million people, many through methods similar to the ones detailed above. This puts his annual average in the neighborhood of 45,000 murders. At that rate, if he were left in power, he would have killed 360,000 since 2003. As of today, the website Iraqbodycount.org puts the total number of civilian deaths caused by the Iraq War between 98,585 and 107,594. In what universe is 100,000 dead worse than 360,000?
| 152 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:54:19am |
re: #150 albusteve
I’m not spinning anything…yes, I would say that was one reason…if invading Iraq was wrong, then invading Afghanistan was just as wrong
One was the base for an attack on us. The other not so much.
| 153 |
KingKenrod Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:54:31am |
re: #137 recusancy
It amazes me that people still argue that Saddam had WMD.
Yeah, Saddam really punked the US on that one. I’ll bet he’s still somewhere laughing his ass of…oh, wait.
| 154 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:54:55am |
re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist
I backed Afghanistan, but the idea that we went into save women and children from tribal brutality is absolutely ridiculous.
I’ve never said it was, SFZ.
However, knowing what our leaving before people in Afghanistan - like this women - are able to assert/protect themselves will be subjected too… That is what stays in my mind.
| 155 |
bratwurst Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:55:29am |
| 156 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:55:29am |
I’m still waiting for the evidence that there was a “continued genocide” of Iraqis right before the invasion.
| 157 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:55:49am |
re: #131 HappyWarrior
Just wish I could have been more politically mature in 2003. I have to admit that a lot of my opposition ot Iraq was driven by my dislike for Bush and that administration. I do wish they had planned things better though, I will say that.
Yeah, that goes without saying.
| 158 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:56:13am |
re: #137 recusancy
It amazes me that people still argue that Saddam had WMD.
Besides Hitchens, who else believes that?
| 159 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:56:36am |
re: #137 recusancy
It amazes me that people still argue that Saddam had WMD.
Who here is making that claim?
| 160 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:56:52am |
People sure are happy to send others to bleed and die for their ideology.
| 161 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:58:09am |
re: #123 Winny Spencer
I personally do not find genocidal dictators particularly funny, but each to his own.
Than Shwe has been in power in Burma since 1992. When are we going to invade?
Mugabe has been in in Zimbabwe since 1980. According to Amnesty, his government killed or tortured 70,000 people in the year before we went into Iraq. When are we going to invade?
Sudan. Equatorial Guinea. I’m leaving North Korea off the list, since I acknowledge that taking them out would actually be dangerous.
I do not object to the idea that the United States may choose to reserve military intervention for situations in which we believe our own national interests to be at stake.
I SERIOUSLY object to pretending that humanitarian concerns were our real justification in such a situation.
| 162 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:58:45am |
re: #152 recusancy
One was the base for an attack on us. The other not so much.
that didn’t take long…pretty weak
maybe we should have invaded the KSA, the premier brewery for antiAmerican satanism LOL!
| 163 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:58:54am |
re: #151 Max D. Reinhardt
What utter, braindead, complete bullshit. How many people did Saddam kill in, say, 2000? 2001? 2002? 2003? Summing up everything from 1979 to 2003 and then dividing it evenly is a reprehensible manipulation. There is no evidence that Saddam was engaging in mass murder (much less genocide) in the last years of his reign, nor that he was going to repeat.
| 164 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:58:57am |
re: #158 Max D. Reinhardt
Besides Hitchens, who else believes that?
You implied it by saying he kept the knowledge and infrastructure.
| 165 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:59:31am |
re: #160 recusancy
People sure are happy to send others to bleed and die for their ideology.
It’s not about ideology, it’s about social justice.
We gave Saddam Hussein weapons of mass destruction and he used them to slaughter hundreds of Kurds. The CIA also allegedly met with Saddam during his exile in Cairo and helped return him to Iraq.
Reagan knew about Saddam’s brutal internal policies and his use of chemical weapons.
It was time for us to do the right thing. We created that monster and we needed to take him out.
| 166 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:59:43am |
Oh god, I hate to post this, but oh well. From Breitbart’s CPAC speech.
He described how he’s found that the people in protests “are not individuals. They’ve been community organized.”
“They’re not Americans,” Breitbart said later. “They’re animals.”
Breitbart went on to describe how a “collusion” has developed between the SEIU, OFA, Acorn, and the Obama Administration. “The President is using these thugs,” he said.“It’s vulgar to think that the President” has “his fingerprints all over” protest groups, Breitbart said
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]
| 167 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:01:32pm |
re: #151 Max D. Reinhardt
In what universe is 100,000 dead worse than 360,000?
In the universe in which these “360,000” are the result of delusional calculations not based on fact, while 100,000 dead are real dead people.
| 168 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:01:49pm |
re: #156 Sergey Romanov
I’m still waiting for the evidence that there was a “continued genocide” of Iraqis right before the invasion.
yeah, I bet you are…the genocide had stopped….the very same way that the Taliban providing a ‘base’ to launch 9/11 was stopped….you only convolute the argument…well I guess there is no debate, I concede
| 169 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:02:17pm |
| 170 |
Targetpractice Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:02:32pm |
re: #166 Stanley Sea
Oh god, I hate to post this, but oh well. From Breitbart’s CPAC speech.
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]
Stay classy, Andy.
///
| 171 |
CuriousLurker Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:02:35pm |
re: #149 Killgore Trout
Hamas certainly won’t be helpful but I think the people of Gaza might see the freedoms and prosperity in Egypt and vote for non-terrorist political parties who could create an environment suitable for business and economic activity.
I think this is a really important point. The entire ME is watching the events in Egypt closely. Egypt is a very popular country with the Arabs (movies, singers, TV shows, vacations, etc.), so IMO if they can successfully create a new, more open government that benefits ALL their people it will go a long way towards inspiring others to do the same.
IOW, I think change will mean a lot more to people in the ME if the see it as a grassroots thing coming from within their ranks rather than something imposed by foreigners who don’t really understand them (the way they understand themselves).
| 172 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:02:50pm |
re: #160 recusancy
People sure are happy to send others to bleed and die for their ideology.
You don’t get to make that bullshit statement and get a free pass from me.
There are several of us here on LGF’s that have given, I have given, and the most precious part of my Soul is taking on the responsibility next.
| 173 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:02:55pm |
re: #165 Max D. Reinhardt
It’s not about ideology, it’s about social justice.
We gave Saddam Hussein weapons of mass destruction and he used them to slaughter hundreds of Kurds. The CIA also allegedly met with Saddam during his exile in Cairo and helped return him to Iraq.
Reagan knew about Saddam’s brutal internal policies and his use of chemical weapons.
It was time for us to do the right thing. We created that monster and we needed to take him out.
And I’m sure you were at the recruitment office filling out paper work to back up your desire for justice.
| 174 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:03:12pm |
re: #167 Sergey Romanov
In the universe in which these “360,000” are the result of delusional calculations not based on fact, while 100,000 dead are real dead people.
It is impossible for us to know how many are dead. The secret police records were largely destroyed during the war, so we are forced to make estimates.
| 175 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:03:16pm |
re: #154 Ericus58
I’ve never said it was, SFZ.
However, knowing what our leaving before people in Afghanistan - like this women - are able to assert/protect themselves will be subjected too… That is what stays in my mind.
I understand that, but things just as bad are happening all over the world, in countries that are our allies, in countries we will never, ever invade, because they’re unimportant on a global scale…
And I don’t think we can fix Afghanistan.
| 176 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:03:56pm |
re: #162 albusteve
that didn’t take long…pretty weak
maybe we should have invaded the KSA, the premier brewery for antiAmerican satanism LOL!
I wouldn’t mind.
| 177 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:04:40pm |
re: #173 recusancy
And I’m sure you were at the recruitment office filling out paper work to back up your desire for justice.
I was, but I have albinism. My visual impairment disqualified me from joining the military.
| 178 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:04:46pm |
re: #165 Max D. Reinhardt
It’s not about ideology, it’s about social justice.
We gave Saddam Hussein weapons of mass destruction and he used them to slaughter hundreds of Kurds. The CIA also allegedly met with Saddam during his exile in Cairo and helped return him to Iraq.
Reagan knew about Saddam’s brutal internal policies and his use of chemical weapons.
It was time for us to do the right thing. We created that monster and we needed to take him out.
We took out the monster when it turned on us.
That may be sensible, but calling it morality leaves a real bad taste in my mouth.
| 179 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:05:21pm |
re: #166 Stanley Sea
Oh god, I hate to post this, but oh well. From Breitbart’s CPAC speech.
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]
The fact that he’s speaking at all tells you everything that is wrong with CPAC. Proven to be a fraud with ACORN and his boy O’Keefe? Check, proven to be a liar regarding Shirley Sherrod, check, and they give him a speaking spot? Really if I were a conservative, I’d want nothing to do with this asshole.
| 180 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:05:31pm |
re: #172 Ericus58
You don’t get to make that bullshit statement and get a free pass from me.
There are several of us here on LGF’s that have given, I have given, and the most precious part of my Soul is taking on the responsibility next.
Then I commend you. Far too many have not followed you and your Soul’s lead.
| 181 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:06:02pm |
re: #167 Sergey Romanov
In the universe in which these “360,000” are the result of delusional calculations not based on fact, while 100,000 dead are real dead people.
yes, the vast majority of which can be blamed on AQ and all the other freaks rushing in for the kill….you make it sound as tho all those deaths can be attributed to US forces
| 182 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:06:20pm |
re: #164 recusancy
You implied it by saying he kept the knowledge and infrastructure.
Yes, he had the knowledge and the infrastructure to build weapons of mass destruction once the UN sanctions were lifted. I never said that he had stockpiles of WMDs before the invasion.
| 183 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:06:20pm |
re: #166 Stanley Sea
Oh god, I hate to post this, but oh well. From Breitbart’s CPAC speech.
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]
Is he suggesting that animals are not Americans?
Is he suggesting that this dog was not a true American hero?
Speciesist bastard.
| 184 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:08:29pm |
re: #168 albusteve
yeah, I bet you are…the genocide had stopped…the very same way that the Taliban providing a ‘base’ to launch 9/11 was stopped…you only convolute the argument…well I guess there is no debate, I concede
Good that you conceded that “continued genocide” was a figment of your imagination and cannot serve as a basis for the invasion. I’m sure you will also benefit from reading this authoritative article:
War in Iraq: Not a Humanitarian Intervention
But if Saddam Hussein committed mass atrocities in the past, wasn’t his overthrow justified to prevent his resumption of such atrocities in the future? No. Human Rights Watch accepts that military intervention may be necessary not only to stop ongoing slaughter but also to prevent future slaughter, but the future slaughter must be imminent. To justify the extraordinary remedy of military force for preventive humanitarian purposes, there must be evidence that large-scale slaughter is in preparation and about to begin unless militarily stopped. But no one seriously claimed before the war that the Saddam Hussein government was planning imminent mass killing, and no evidence has emerged that it was. There were claims that Saddam Hussein, with a history of gassing Iranian soldiers and Iraqi Kurds, was planning to deliver weapons of mass destruction through terrorist networks, but these allegations were entirely speculative; no substantial evidence has yet emerged. There were also fears that the Iraqi government might respond to an invasion with the use of chemical or biological weapons, perhaps even against its own people, but no one seriously suggested such use as an imminent possibility in the absence of an invasion.That does not mean that past atrocities should be ignored. Rather, their perpetrators should be prosecuted. Human Rights Watch has devoted enormous efforts to investigating and documenting the Iraqi government’s atrocities, particularly the Anfal genocide against Iraqi Kurds. We have interviewed witnesses and survivors, exhumed mass graves, taken soil samples to demonstrate the use of chemical weapons, and combed through literally tons of Iraqi secret police documents. We have circled the globe trying to convince some government�any government�to institute legal proceedings against Iraq for genocide. No one would. In the mid-1990s, when our efforts were most intense, governments feared that charging Iraq with genocide would be too provocative�that it would undermine future commercial deals with Iraq, squander influence in the Middle East, invite terrorist retaliation, or simply cost too much money.
But to urge justice or even criminal prosecution is not to justify humanitarian intervention. Indictments should be issued, and suspects should be arrested if they dare to venture abroad, but the extraordinary remedy of humanitarian intervention should not be used simply to secure justice for past crimes. This extreme step, as noted, should be taken only to stop current or imminent slaughter, not to punish past abuse.
In stating that the killing in Iraq did not rise to a level that justified humanitarian intervention, we are not insensitive to the awful plight of the Iraqi people. We are aware that summary executions occurred with disturbing frequency in Iraq up to the end of Saddam Hussein’s rule, as did torture and other brutality. Such atrocities should be met with public, diplomatic, and economic pressure, as well as prosecution. But before taking the substantial risk to life that is inherent in any war, mass slaughter should be taking place or imminent. That was not the case in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq in March 2003.
| 185 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:10:00pm |
re: #181 albusteve
yes, the vast majority of which can be blamed on AQ and all the other freaks rushing in for the kill…you make it sound as tho all those deaths can be attributed to US forces
Uh, that was the result of the invasion. You broke it, you bought it.
| 186 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:10:37pm |
re: #185 Sergey Romanov
Uh, that was the result of the invasion. You broke it, you bought it.
As Colin Powell so aptly pointed out in his Pottery Barn analogy.
| 187 |
Max Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:11:32pm |
re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist
We took out the monster when it turned on us.
That may be sensible, but calling it morality leaves a real bad taste in my mouth.
You’re treating the American people, and the government, like they are a collective with no individual thoughts. Peter Galbreith led the crusade against the Reagan administration’s support for Saddam Hussein. He presented exhaustive research that proved that Saddam was using our military aid to wage a genocide against the Iraqi Kurds.
You’re right about Reagan and Bush 41, they knew what was happening and did nothing.
| 188 |
tradewind Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:11:43pm |
Fact-checking a Maddow Fox fact, finding it false:
[Link: www.politifact.com…]
She’s usually very professional. Getting punked twice in one month by fake videos, and now this? Did she really think no one would check?
Maybe it was just the Spell of Letterman.
| 189 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:11:48pm |
re: #174 Max D. Reinhardt
It is impossible for us to know how many are dead. The secret police records were largely destroyed during the war, so we are forced to make estimates.
The “numbers” you quoted are not even estimates. “They are not even wrong”.
| 190 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:13:23pm |
re: #187 Max D. Reinhardt
You’re treating the American people, and the government, like they are a collective with no individual thoughts. Peter Galbreith led the crusade against the Reagan administration’s support for Saddam Hussein. He presented exhaustive research that proved that Saddam was using our military aid to wage a genocide against the Iraqi Kurds.
You’re right about Reagan and Bush 41, they knew what was happening and did nothing.
I am not ‘treating the American people, and the government, like they are a collective’. I am commenting on our foreign policy.
| 191 |
tradewind Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:13:46pm |
re: #151 Max D. Reinhardt
You’re gonna throw facts in there? Have you learned Nuh-think?/
| 192 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:14:15pm |
re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist
I understand that, but things just as bad are happening all over the world, in countries that are our allies, in countries we will never, ever invade, because they’re unimportant on a global scale…
And I don’t think we can fix Afghanistan.
And we may not be able to. Indeed.
But if not us, then who?
I know, it’s not an easy deal.
| 193 |
bratwurst Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:14:18pm |
re: #188 tradewind
Fact-checking a Maddow Fox fact, finding it false:
[Link: www.politifact.com…]
She’s usually very professional. Getting punked twice in one month by fake videos, and now this? Did she really think no one would check?
Maybe it was just the Spell of Letterman.
Go back to telling everyone how Reagan reacted to the fall of the Berlin wall.
| 194 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:14:24pm |
re: #188 tradewind
Fact-checking a Maddow Fox fact, finding it false:
[Link: www.politifact.com…]
She’s usually very professional. Getting punked twice in one month by fake videos, and now this? Did she really think no one would check?
Maybe it was just the Spell of Letterman.
But how did this get on PolitiFact? I thought they just existed to nitpick stuff Sarah Palin said.
| 195 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:14:34pm |
re: #184 Sergey Romanov
are you saying that Hussein stopped killing his own people at the threat of invasion?….he would still be killing them if he were alive…”continued genocide” didn’t agree with you and that’s fine with me, all your cut and paste is wasted on me tho…the guy was a super maniac, totally demented and you have not posted any alternative to invasion, even tho the entire world thought he was pursuing WMDs…I’m sure there are, but you’d rather split hairs than cop to the fundamentals here
| 196 |
Summer Seale Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:14:34pm |
re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist
I backed Afghanistan, but the idea that we went into save women and children from tribal brutality is absolutely ridiculous.
Yea, but I was for the saving of women and children from tribal brutality before we went into Afghanistan, and I didn’t care what reason the government gave as long as it did go in - just as I don’t think the slaves of the south cared much whether Lincoln was originally fighting for them or not, or whether Jews in the camps cared if FDR was doing it entirely for them or not.
I still stand by that. =)
| 197 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:15:04pm |
I’m proud to say I was ahead of Rachel on this one yesterday ….
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
| 198 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:15:25pm |
re: #188 tradewind
Fact-checking a Maddow Fox fact, finding it false:
[Link: www.politifact.com…]
She’s usually very professional. Getting punked twice in one month by fake videos, and now this? Did she really think no one would check?
Maybe it was just the Spell of Letterman.
It’s important to keep everyone honest, “even” the best. What were the fake videos?
| 200 |
bratwurst Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:15:37pm |
re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist
But how did this get on PolitiFact? I thought they just existed to nitpick stuff Sarah Palin said.
She likes them when they agree with her.
| 201 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:15:39pm |
earnestly believing that their every brain fart expresses the ‘will of the overwhelming majority of the american people’, wingnuts have no clue when they are seriously damaging the credibility of the conservative movement
| 202 |
tradewind Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:18:43pm |
re: #198 Sergey Romanov
Maddow admitted herself she had been fooled, which was classy of her. One was about Palin, the other, I forget….. you can easily google. Maybe both were.
| 203 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:19:30pm |
re: #195 albusteve
are you saying that Hussein stopped killing his own people at the threat of invasion?…he would still be killing them if he were alive…”continued genocide” didn’t agree with you and that’s fine with me, all your cut and paste is wasted on me tho…the guy was a super maniac, totally demented and you have not posted any alternative to invasion, even tho the entire world thought he was pursuing WMDs…I’m sure there are, but you’d rather split hairs than cop to the fundamentals here
Every “super maniac” despot tries to pursue WMD’s. We shouldn’t be acting on that. We should be acting on their ability to get them. We had inspectors on the ground. I know the IAEA didn’t tell you what you wanted to here so you dismissed them. Why did we have to work so hard to sell the WMD angle if everyone already agreed?
| 204 |
tradewind Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:20:33pm |
re: #193 bratwurst
Oh come ON. Getting caught up in the Letterman mystique and exaggerating on SeeBS doesn’t make her a bad person. Just over-enthusiastic.
| 205 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:21:42pm |
re: #203 recusancy
Every “super maniac” despot tries to pursue WMD’s. We shouldn’t be acting on that. We should be acting on their ability to get them. We had inspectors on the ground. I know the IAEA didn’t tell you what you wanted to here so you dismissed them. Why did we have to work so hard to sell the WMD angle if everyone already agreed?
I have no idea…am I supposed to know this for some reason?
| 206 |
bratwurst Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:23:15pm |
re: #204 tradewind
Oh come ON. Getting caught up in the Letterman mystique and exaggerating on SeeBS doesn’t make her a bad person. Just over-enthusiastic.
A mea culpa about how you posted about REAGAN’s reaction to the fall of the Berlin Wall yesterday would be in order, genius.
| 207 |
tradewind Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:24:11pm |
re: #156 Sergey Romanov
[Link: hubpages.com…]
Few adjectives were used out of respect for those who had suffered Saddam’s crimes against humanity. What Elie Weisel calls, “describing the unspeakable.” They told me of the horrors of Genocide, the gassed city of Halabja where 5,000 Kurds were killed in minutes, the five stages of Anfal, the massacres, the harvesting of body organs, to say nothing of the “disappeared” and the mass internal displacement of hundreds of thousands of Kurds. To hear these stories up close, by men with great restraint and empathy, is profound.
Just one of a hundred examples, too many to list.
| 208 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:24:39pm |
re: #195 albusteve
are you saying that Hussein stopped killing his own people at the threat of invasion?…he would still be killing them if he were alive…”continued genocide” didn’t agree with you and that’s fine with me, all your cut and paste is wasted on me tho…the guy was a super maniac, totally demented and you have not posted any alternative to invasion, even tho the entire world thought he was pursuing WMDs…I’m sure there are, but you’d rather split hairs than cop to the fundamentals here
Alternative to invasion: not invading.
The “entire world” didn’t believe in WMD, and those who did did not necessarily see the need to invade. But leaving faith in WMDs aside as a separate issue, “killing one’s people” is a weasel phrase. He was not committing mass murder during the years after he did commit the genocide on Kurds, certainly not in the years before the invasion. Executions - yes, like any authoritarian/totalitarian state. Executions and torture have never been considered an excuse for invasion and for risking the lives of ten thousand times more people. Heck, Mubarak was “killing his own people” by this standard, the US didn’t invade. I’m not “splitting hairs”, I’m objecting to historical revisionism and false claims.
| 209 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:26:54pm |
re: #207 tradewind
[Link: hubpages.com…]
Just one of a hundred examples, too many to list.
You have a trouble with chronology. Halabja was not in 2003. And read the thread before responding, this has all been covered in detail.
| 210 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:27:38pm |
I watched MSNBC, CNN and Fox (least) on Egypt pretty much all day Friday, not to mention the previous days. The one impression I came away with regarding Fox was that they could not speak two sentences without having a reference to Obama and his actions or speeches during the past two years.
Seriously; everything they see or say can only be in the overall context of Obama. There needs to be a word for this that doesn’t include TEA.
| 211 |
bratwurst Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:27:44pm |
re: #209 Sergey Romanov
You have a trouble with chronology. Halabja was not in 2003. And read the thread before responding, this has all been covered in detail.
This is the same person who thinks Reagan responded to the fall of the Berlin Wall, so what do you expect?
| 212 |
tradewind Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:28:10pm |
re: #206 bratwurst
Yeah, mea maxima typo.
The point was that the US sent massive amounts of aid, research assistance, and development to prevent problems with emerging democracies in contrast to Carter sitting on his hands after the Iranian revolution, which began as secular.
| 213 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:28:38pm |
re: #125 Max D. Reinhardt
Why would Bush lie about something that would be disprove as soon as we invaded?
Saddam Hussein destroyed most of his WMDs after the First Gulf War, but he kept the knowledge and the infrastructure. He could’ve started again if his “sanctions are killing babies” propaganda had worked. (The sanctions weren’t killing the Iraqi people, it was Saddam and his cronies who were stealing and re-selling all the food and medical aid being sent to Iraq under Oil-for-Food.)
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
Ugh. So this is one of the places that believed the crap that Saddam could have been nuclear in months.
| 214 |
bratwurst Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:29:15pm |
re: #212 tradewind
Yeah, mea maxima typo.
The point was that the US sent massive amounts of aid, research assistance, and development to prevent problems with emerging democracies in contrast to Carter sitting on his hands after the Iranian revolution, which began as secular.
So typing “Reagan” instead of “Bush” is a typo on planet Tradewind, eh? LOL
| 215 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:29:38pm |
re: #195 albusteve
the entire world thought he was pursuing WMDs
i thought from the beginning we wouldn’t find anything more than the poison gas that the reagan administration sold him
and even tho i’m just some shmuck on the street, people like me turned out to be more correct than all those foreign policy experts on the teevee
| 216 |
tradewind Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:29:58pm |
re: #209 Sergey Romanov
But your contention is that there was no genocide of Iraqis by Saddam Hussein?
Okey-doke.
Who can argue with that logic?
| 217 |
tradewind Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:30:36pm |
re: #214 bratwurst
Stretch this one out as long as you wish. You know what the point was, you just don’t like it.
| 219 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:31:15pm |
1. Saddam was a mass murderer and an overall a bad guy.
2. This by itself does not justify the invasion.
3. This would have justified invasion, say, in 1988, when he was committing genocide.
4. He was not committing genocide or other forms of mass murder in 2000s.
5. There is no evidence that he was going to commit such in the future.
6. Therefore mass murder cannot serve as a justification of the invasion in 2003.
How difficult is it to understand?
| 220 |
bratwurst Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:31:39pm |
re: #217 tradewind
Stretch this one out as long as you wish. You know what the point was, you just don’t like it.
Your Reagan fetish is showing. You are not alone though, all of your friends at CPAC have the same fetish.
| 221 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:31:54pm |
re: #208 Sergey Romanov
Alternative to invasion: not invading.
But continue to enforce the no-fly zones, or?
| 222 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:32:09pm |
re: #215 engineer dog
i thought from the beginning we wouldn’t find anything more than the poison gas that the reagan administration sold him
and even tho i’m just some shmuck on the street, people like me turned out to be more correct than all those foreign policy experts on the teevee
This schmuck was called a traitor.
| 223 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:32:14pm |
re: #216 tradewind
But your contention is that there was no genocide of Iraqis by Saddam Hussein?
Okey-doke.
Who can argue with that logic?
Are you being intentionally obtuse? Have you not been following what Sergey has been saying?
| 224 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:33:25pm |
| 225 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:33:41pm |
re: #216 tradewind
But your contention is that there was no genocide of Iraqis by Saddam Hussein?
Okey-doke.
Who can argue with that logic?
Of course there had been a genocide. There was no continued genocide that was going to be stopped by the invasion. I really don’t understand why some people have such trouble what I write here very explicitly.
| 226 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:33:48pm |
re: #212 tradewind
Yeah, mea maxima typo.
The point was that the US sent massive amounts of aid, research assistance, and development to prevent problems with emerging democracies in contrast to Carter sitting on his hands after the Iranian revolution, which began as secular.
I’m going to assume that, the evil that is Jimmy Carter to one side, this means that you feel that Obama ought to immediately provide aid and finance to the new Egyptian government. I do not disagree, although I’d like to see this new government before making up my mind, however:
a. We financed and backed Mubarak, as we had financed and backed the Shah. This makes it a little harder to get in on the ground level with friendly advice, as opposed to Eastern Europe, where we had been in a throw-down with old management for decades and had bona fides.
b. If Obama props up the new government, and they go apeshit problematic in any way, it will, if course, all be his fault.
| 227 |
recusancy Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:34:52pm |
re: #226 SanFranciscoZionist
b. If Obama props up the new government, and they go apeshit problematic in any way, it will, if course, all be his fault.
And then we’ll have to invade.
| 228 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:35:16pm |
re: #215 engineer dog
i thought from the beginning we wouldn’t find anything more than the poison gas that the reagan administration sold him
and even tho i’m just some shmuck on the street, people like me turned out to be more correct than all those foreign policy experts on the teevee
yeah, the same people who stated a few weeks ago that Egypt was stable…I think we have a problem with intelligence these days, like the MB is a secular organization etc etc
| 229 |
tradewind Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:37:22pm |
re: #226 SanFranciscoZionist
Let’s face it: if Egypt works, ( please), POTUS will take all the credit. If it goes to hell, he didn’t have a thing to do with it.
Re the aid, there’s probably nothing to be done now while the military is in charge, but there will be forces immediately chipping away at them from within, so we had better be ready to send help to any true impulses of democracy that emerge.
That’s all. Who knows?
| 230 |
CuriousLurker Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:37:36pm |
re: #225 Sergey Romanov
Of course there had been a genocide. There was no continued genocide that was going to be stopped by the invasion. I really don’t understand why some people have such trouble what I write here very explicitly.
Classic straw man.
| 231 |
Summer Seale Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:38:33pm |
re: #208 Sergey Romanov
Again, these issues have been rehashed over and over again here and in the world at large for eight years now. People are going to be for or against the invasion with set points of view at this point and almost nothing will shake them from it.
But, I’ll tell you something that I’ve said before, during, and ever since the invasion: If the US Government had come to me and told me that they had a plan for getting me into Iraq and setting up a sniper’s nest and pulling the trigger on Saddam myself, that it was extremely risky and there was little chance of survival after the bullet had gone through his head, I’d have accepted the mission.
The fact is: like in Afghanistan, I don’t care what the reason was for going to Iraq. I honestly barely care if Iraq stayed a united country or not after the fact. There are certain people in the world, and I counted Saddam amongst them, who really have to be made an example of. Needless to say, we totally screwed that up. We did get him, but it would have been better to toss a grenade down his spider hole before we pulled him out. I say the same about Mullah Omar, Kim Jong Il, and a few others out there.
It is extra-judicial justice, and I make absolutely no bones about it. Is it murder? Absolutely - and you won’t find me caring one bit about it.
I do care that Iraq is a mess today, but there are some things that I won’t stand for. There are many societies which may fall apart when we kill their dictators and madmen, but that doesn’t excuse allowing them to remain in power.
There are many reasons why we claim to have gone into Iraq, and there are even more reasons that people attribute to the reasons behind those reasons, but it makes no difference to me. The reason I wanted us to go into Iraq was to kill Saddam Hussein. That the Iraqis can’t figure out what to do afterwards really is their enigma to sort out on their own.
I know that sounds pretty hard-headed but…again…I don’t compromise with some things involving certain people in the world who are so utterly evil and cruel that they really have forfeited the benefits a civilized society has to offer them. And every opportunity that I see where we can take action against them, regardless of other reasons surrounding it, I will tend to support.
| 232 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:38:48pm |
re: #229 tradewind
Let’s face it: if Egypt works, ( please), POTUS will take all the credit. If it goes to hell, he didn’t have a thing to do with it.
Re the aid, there’s probably nothing to be done now while the military is in charge, but there will be forces immediately chipping away at them from within, so we had better be ready to send help to any true impulses of democracy that emerge.
That’s all. Who knows?
How does one identify a ‘true impulse of democracy’?
BTW, my bet is that the military will stay in charge.
| 233 |
tradewind Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:39:08pm |
re: #228 albusteve
A problem with intelligence: for sure. One of the most ironic hashtags on twitter now is
#futureclapper. Example: Al-What?
| 234 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:39:12pm |
re: #215 engineer dog
all those foreign policy experts on the teevee
It was much more than “all those foreign policy experts on the teevee”
GOOGLE the long Long LONG list of UN resolutions re: them
| 235 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:39:18pm |
Heck, there are executions in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq now, for all the wrong reasons, like being an atheist or gay. This should count as “killing one’s own people”, genocide, and should be a reason for toppling the current governments. Or not?
| 237 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:39:51pm |
re: #228 albusteve
yeah, the same people who stated a few weeks ago that Egypt was stable…I think we have a problem with intelligence these days, like the MB is a secular organization etc etc
i’m not “the same people” and i dislike it when people assume they know what my opinions are
| 238 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:40:21pm |
re: #234 sattv4u2
all those foreign policy experts on the teeveeIt was much more than “all those foreign policy experts on the teevee”
GOOGLE the long Long LONG list of UN resolutions re: them
Is it longer than the list of resolutions shaking a finger at Israel?
| 239 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:40:44pm |
re: #234 sattv4u2
all those foreign policy experts on the teeveeIt was much more than “all those foreign policy experts on the teevee”
GOOGLE the long Long LONG list of UN resolutions re: them
i don’t care how long the list of idiots was, and how many democrats were on it
we were right and they were wrong
| 240 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:40:48pm |
re: #223 recusancy
Are you being intentionally obtuse? Have you not been following what Sergey has been saying?
by that same logic, we should never have invaded Afghanistan since their days of ‘providing a base’ for those Arabians who whacked us on 9/11 was past…or is there some cut off date?….it’s just semantics at this point…why invade Iraq the first time, since Kuwait was a done deal?….not worth arguing over
| 241 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:41:30pm |
re: #231 Summer
Hey, I actually partially agree. Bumping Saddam off would have been a much better solution. Invasion? Not so much.
| 242 |
CuriousLurker Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:42:19pm |
re: #234 sattv4u2
I read about your loss while I was lurking one day recently, so I just want to take a moment to offer my condolences. {sattv4u2}
| 243 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:42:35pm |
re: #240 albusteve
by that same logic, we should never have invaded Afghanistan since their days of ‘providing a base’ for those Arabians who whacked us on 9/11 was past…or is there some cut off date?…it’s just semantics at this point…why invade Iraq the first time, since Kuwait was a done deal?…not worth arguing over
Neither the occupation of Kuwait, nor the sheltering of al-Qaeda in Afghanistan was over when the invasions took place.
And Arabians are horses.
That is all.
| 244 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:42:38pm |
re: #238 SanFranciscoZionist
Is it longer than the list of resolutions shaking a finger at Israel?
If you see no difference, that’s a you problem, not a me problem.
The UN was pushed kicking and screaming to write resolutions against Saddam
The UN has a “form letter” already for any slight they think Israel has committed. They just fill in the dates!
| 245 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:42:40pm |
re: #225 Sergey Romanov
Of course there had been a genocide. There was no continued genocide that was going to be stopped by the invasion. I really don’t understand why some people have such trouble what I write here very explicitly.
LOL…others seem to have that same problem
| 246 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:42:59pm |
re: #242 CuriousLurker
I read about your loss while I was lurking one day recently, so I just want to take a moment to offer my condolences. {sattv4u2}
Thank you. It means a lot!
| 250 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:45:04pm |
re: #240 albusteve
by that same logic, we should never have invaded Afghanistan since their days of ‘providing a base’ for those Arabians who whacked us on 9/11 was past…or is there some cut off date?…it’s just semantics at this point…why invade Iraq the first time, since Kuwait was a done deal?…not worth arguing over
Afghanistan was justified exactly because it was done so quickly, they were still sheltering Al-Qaida, which attacked the US. No comparison.
| 251 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:45:09pm |
re: #232 SanFranciscoZionist
How does one identify a ‘true impulse of democracy’?
BTW, my bet is that the military will stay in charge.
of course…the military has always been in charge….Mu is their stooge, nothing more since they have all the guns
| 252 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:45:28pm |
re: #231 Summer
Again, these issues have been rehashed over and over again here and in the world at large for eight years now. People are going to be for or against the invasion with set points of view at this point and almost nothing will shake them from it.
But, I’ll tell you something that I’ve said before, during, and ever since the invasion: If the US Government had come to me and told me that they had a plan for getting me into Iraq and setting up a sniper’s nest and pulling the trigger on Saddam myself, that it was extremely risky and there was little chance of survival after the bullet had gone through his head, I’d have accepted the mission.
The fact is: like in Afghanistan, I don’t care what the reason was for going to Iraq. I honestly barely care if Iraq stayed a united country or not after the fact. There are certain people in the world, and I counted Saddam amongst them, who really have to be made an example of. Needless to say, we totally screwed that up. We did get him, but it would have been better to toss a grenade down his spider hole before we pulled him out. I say the same about Mullah Omar, Kim Jong Il, and a few others out there.
It is extra-judicial justice, and I make absolutely no bones about it. Is it murder? Absolutely - and you won’t find me caring one bit about it.
I do care that Iraq is a mess today, but there are some things that I won’t stand for. There are many societies which may fall apart when we kill their dictators and madmen, but that doesn’t excuse allowing them to remain in power.
There are many reasons why we claim to have gone into Iraq, and there are even more reasons that people attribute to the reasons behind those reasons, but it makes no difference to me. The reason I wanted us to go into Iraq was to kill Saddam Hussein. That the Iraqis can’t figure out what to do afterwards really is their enigma to sort out on their own.
I know that sounds pretty hard-headed but…again…I don’t compromise with some things involving certain people in the world who are so utterly evil and cruel that they really have forfeited the benefits a civilized society has to offer them. And every opportunity that I see where we can take action against them, regardless of other reasons surrounding it, I will tend to support.
Summer, you are quite a person.
From your hilarious renditions of Palin and others…. this this post.
I sure enjoy you.
| 253 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:45:36pm |
re: #239 engineer dog
i don’t care how long the list of idiots was, and how many democrats were on it
we were right and they were wrong
Reub/ Dem,,, right/wrong had nothing to do with what I posted about UN resolutions
But thanks for not understanding!
| 254 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:45:42pm |
re: #245 albusteve
LOL…others seem to have that same problem
It’s a very definite subset of people. Most got what I wrote.
| 255 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:45:49pm |
| 256 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:46:49pm |
| 257 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:47:06pm |
| 258 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:47:21pm |
| 259 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:47:50pm |
re: #231 Summer
Again, these issues have been rehashed over and over again here and in the world at large for eight years now. People are going to be for or against the invasion with set points of view at this point and almost nothing will shake them from it.
But, I’ll tell you something that I’ve said before, during, and ever since the invasion: If the US Government had come to me and told me that they had a plan for getting me into Iraq and setting up a sniper’s nest and pulling the trigger on Saddam myself, that it was extremely risky and there was little chance of survival after the bullet had gone through his head, I’d have accepted the mission.
The fact is: like in Afghanistan, I don’t care what the reason was for going to Iraq. I honestly barely care if Iraq stayed a united country or not after the fact. There are certain people in the world, and I counted Saddam amongst them, who really have to be made an example of. Needless to say, we totally screwed that up. We did get him, but it would have been better to toss a grenade down his spider hole before we pulled him out. I say the same about Mullah Omar, Kim Jong Il, and a few others out there.
It is extra-judicial justice, and I make absolutely no bones about it. Is it murder? Absolutely - and you won’t find me caring one bit about it.
I do care that Iraq is a mess today, but there are some things that I won’t stand for. There are many societies which may fall apart when we kill their dictators and madmen, but that doesn’t excuse allowing them to remain in power.
There are many reasons why we claim to have gone into Iraq, and there are even more reasons that people attribute to the reasons behind those reasons, but it makes no difference to me. The reason I wanted us to go into Iraq was to kill Saddam Hussein. That the Iraqis can’t figure out what to do afterwards really is their enigma to sort out on their own.
I know that sounds pretty hard-headed but…again…I don’t compromise with some things involving certain people in the world who are so utterly evil and cruel that they really have forfeited the benefits a civilized society has to offer them. And every opportunity that I see where we can take action against them, regardless of other reasons surrounding it, I will tend to support.
Also, about extra-judicial stuff. I think assassinating Saddam would have been justified exactly as a matter of defense of the lives of those few people he was indeed killing late in the game.
| 260 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:48:09pm |
| 261 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:49:15pm |
re: #253 sattv4u2
Reub/ Dem,,, right/wrong had nothing to do with what I posted about UN resolutions
But thanks for not understanding!
ok, maybe that’s two posts i was misunderstanding
i must be in Quick MisReaction Mode today
however - in that case, i don’t see the point you were making…
| 262 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:50:00pm |
OT
SO ,, tomorrow I go experience STICKER SHOCK
There’s a college fair downtown Atlanta and my son has interviews with 8 of them and wants to talk to about 12 others
| 263 |
prairiefire Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:50:45pm |
re: #262 sattv4u2
OT
SO ,, tomorrow I go experience STICKER SHOCK
There’s a college fair downtown Atlanta and my son has interviews with 8 of them and wants to talk to about 12 others
Tens of thousands of dollars.
| 264 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:50:47pm |
re: #244 sattv4u2
If you see no difference, that’s a you problem, not a me problem.
The UN was pushed kicking and screaming to write resolutions against Saddam
The UN has a “form letter” already for any slight they think Israel has committed. They just fill in the dates!
The UN is not who I trust for foreign policy decisions. They are not unbiased, and they are not without an agenda.
But I guess that’s a ‘me problem’.
| 265 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:51:05pm |
re: #261 engineer dog
ok, maybe that’s two posts i was misunderstanding
i must be in Quick MisReaction Mode today
however - in that case, i don’t see the point you were making…
You were saying something about how smart all the “we know there are no WMD” crowd is (20/20 hindsight is more like it imho)
It went WAY beyond that a few American politicians thought it
| 266 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:52:22pm |
re: #263 prairiefire
Tens of thousands of dollars.
I know
I’ve already checked a few out
IF he goes to a state funded college (Georgia,, he has his eye on Georgia Tech) I’ll actually be paying LESS than I am right now for his high school!
| 267 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:52:26pm |
re: #262 sattv4u2
OT
SO ,, tomorrow I go experience STICKER SHOCK
There’s a college fair downtown Atlanta and my son has interviews with 8 of them and wants to talk to about 12 others
budget freefall…sorry man, putting two kids through college wiped out my entire adult life savings/earnings…but so far it’s been worth every penny
| 268 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:52:28pm |
re: #259 Sergey Romanov
Also, about extra-judicial stuff. I think assassinating Saddam would have been justified exactly as a matter of defense of the lives of those few people he was indeed killing late in the game.
Justified on moral grounds or according to International Law? I presume that it’s not the latter.
| 270 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:53:35pm |
re: #264 SanFranciscoZionist
The UN is not who I trust for foreign policy decisions. They are not unbiased, and they are not without an agenda.
But I guess that’s a ‘me problem’.
And that was the point I was making
As biased AGAINST Israel and the US as the UN is, they STILL had a pile of resolutions against Saddam/ Iraq
| 271 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:53:50pm |
re: #268 Winny Spencer
Justified on moral grounds or according to International Law? I presume that it’s not the latter.
Clawhammer case. I would be willing to overlook international law for the opportunity to kill him myself. With a clawhammer.
| 272 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:53:50pm |
re: #265 sattv4u2
You were saying something about how smart all the “we know there are no WMD” crowd is (20/20 hindsight is more like it imho)
It went WAY beyond that a few American politicians thought it
if anybody ever catches me saying that i am smarter than other people, please whack me upside the head a few times
| 273 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:53:55pm |
re: #262 sattv4u2
OT
SO ,, tomorrow I go experience STICKER SHOCK
There’s a college fair downtown Atlanta and my son has interviews with 8 of them and wants to talk to about 12 others
Hi Satt …. My condolences on your loss …
I feel you on the sticker shock thing …. I have a junior in college and a HS senior right now … next year is gonna be brutal.
| 274 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:53:59pm |
| 275 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:54:43pm |
re: #271 SanFranciscoZionist
Clawhammer case. I would be willing to overlook international law for the opportunity to kill him myself. With a clawhammer.
yikes!
| 276 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:54:53pm |
re: #270 sattv4u2
And that was the point I was making
As biased AGAINST Israel and the US as the UN is, they STILL had a pile of resolutions against Saddam/ Iraq
Saddam had a few other enemies.
| 277 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:55:01pm |
re: #219 Sergey Romanov
4. He was not committing genocide or other forms of mass murder in 2000s.5. There is no evidence that he was going to commit such in the future.
Regardless of the argument for invasion, he was committing 4: anytime anyone displeased him. How many constitutes “mass” ?
5: One has every reason to think he would do so in the future. The reason is the same one that we use to justify locking some people up for life, or executing them.
| 278 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:55:06pm |
re: #273 _RememberTonyC
Hi Satt … My condolences on your loss …
I feel you on the sticker shock thing … I have a junior in college and a HS senior right now … next year is gonna be brutal.
Thanks
If my son wants a school in your state, can I use your address as where he “lives” !?!?!
| 279 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:55:15pm |
re: #265 sattv4u2
There’s a 20/20 hindsight, and there’s a 17/20 probable conclusion one could’ve made from all the available data, especially Powell’s UN speech (I think understood there were probably no WMDs after all after reading it back then, so impotent the data was).
| 281 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:55:30pm |
| 282 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:55:47pm |
| 283 |
prairiefire Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:55:48pm |
re: #266 sattv4u2
I know
I’ve already checked a few out
IF he goes to a state funded college (Georgia,, he has his eye on Georgia Tech) I’ll actually be paying LESS than I am right now for his high school!
Fingers crossed. Georgia tech is a good school.
| 284 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:56:00pm |
| 285 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:56:24pm |
re: #278 sattv4u2
Thanks
If my son wants a school in your state, can I use your address as where he “lives” !?!?!
is he considering UCONN?
| 286 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:57:23pm |
re: #277 Naso Tang
Regardless of the argument for invasion, he was committing 4: anytime anyone displeased him. How many constitutes “mass” ?
Concrete examples of committed genocide in 2000-2003? Also, genocide is not committed simply when anyone anytime displeases someone. Genocide has to have a genocidal intent to be such, so you’re probably misusing the term to say “mass murder”.
5: One has every reason to think he would do so in the future.
No, no reason.
| 287 |
Ojoe Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:57:59pm |
Lincoln’s contemporaries said of him that his compassion was infinite.
BBL
| 288 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:58:07pm |
re: #281 SanFranciscoZionist
It’s normally my standard for death penalty cases.
and here I thought you’d be the ‘poke them to death with tatting needles’ type
| 289 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:58:52pm |
re: #285 _RememberTonyC
is he considering UCONN?
No
He wants to go into engineering and all the ones on his “list” are in the Top 50 in the country
| 290 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:59:04pm |
re: #268 Winny Spencer
Justified on moral grounds or according to International Law? I presume that it’s not the latter.
We’re not touching intlaw here, which is a whole other can of eels when discussing the Iraq war. It would still have been a lesser evil.
| 291 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:59:05pm |
RT @joshuamneff: “I resign as leader of Egypt. No, not RESIGN! I REIGN! REIGN! DAMN YOU AUTOCORRECT!” — Hosni Mubarak
| 292 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:59:16pm |
| 293 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:00:18pm |
Speaking of Lincoln, Darwin. Always thought it was a neat coincidence of history that they were born on the same day. Kinda like Jefferson and Adams dying on the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Anyone know of any more interesting coincidences like that?
| 294 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:00:29pm |
re: #277 Naso Tang
Regardless of the argument for invasion, he was committing 4: anytime anyone displeased him. How many constitutes “mass” ?
5: One has every reason to think he would do so in the future. The reason is the same one that we use to justify locking some people up for life, or executing them.
So when are we taking out Mugabe?
Saddam Hussein was a bloody-handed monster. He deserved to die. No argument here.
But people just as bad, or worse, get to go on killing people forever and ever if they don’t attract the concern or antagonism of the big powers of the world.
We didn’t stop him because he killed his own people.
I may seem as though I am banging on a pointless drum here (are there any pointy drums?), but this is an important issue to me. I will NOT pretend that my tax dollars took down Saddam because he hurt Iraqi civilians. I may have hopped out of bed to watch him be flushed out of his hidey-hole because of that, but that’s not why I ended up paying for it in the long run.
I will not hide behind that. I will not pretend that this is why we invaded Iraq.
| 295 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:01:00pm |
re: #278 sattv4u2
Thanks
If my son wants a school in your state, can I use your address as where he “lives” !?!?!
If Satty Jr. can get into Berkeley, tell him to give us a call.
| 296 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:01:32pm |
re: #266 sattv4u2
I know
I’ve already checked a few out
IF he goes to a state funded college (Georgia,, he has his eye on Georgia Tech) I’ll actually be paying LESS than I am right now for his high school!
Georgia Tech accepted me. I applied because it was the only college with a free application. I ended up going to a hippy dippy touchy feely liberal arts college.
| 297 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:01:40pm |
re: #289 sattv4u2
No
He wants to go into engineering and all the ones on his “list” are in the Top 50 in the country
i imagine he’s looking at Virginia Tech. I don’t go there myself but i have friends who studied engienering there.
| 298 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:01:44pm |
re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist
If Satty Jr. can get into Berkeley, tell him to give us a call.
Will do
(it’s on his list, but they don’t have a rep at tomorrows fair)
| 299 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:01:52pm |
re: #291 wrenchwench
RT @joshuamneff: “I resign as leader of Egypt. No, not RESIGN! I REIGN! REIGN! DAMN YOU AUTOCORRECT!” — Hosni Mubarak
“Damn you, Zionist Bill Gates!”
/
| 300 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:01:57pm |
re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist
If Satty Jr. can get into Berkeley, tell him to give us a call.
Or USF…. ;)
| 301 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:02:11pm |
re: #297 HappyWarrior
i imagine he’s looking at Virginia Tech. I don’t go there myself but i have friends who studied engienering there.
Yup
Thats #4 on his list, I think
| 302 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:02:45pm |
re: #286 Sergey Romanov
Concrete examples of committed genocide in 2000-2003? Also, genocide is not committed simply when anyone anytime displeases someone. Genocide has to have a genocidal intent to be such, so you’re probably misusing the term to say “mass murder”.
No, no reason.
You said mass murder, not genocide. Mass murder in my book means anything over, say, two and counting.
On the latter you are entitled to think he saw the light or something. Personally I have no reason to think his spots changed and experience of human nature backs me up.
| 303 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:03:05pm |
re: #288 albusteve
and here I thought you’d be the ‘poke them to death with tatting needles’ type
Takes forever, and less blood spatter.
| 304 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:03:09pm |
re: #301 sattv4u2
Yup
Thats #4 on his list, I think
Cool stuff, best of luck to him regardless of where he decides. I’m finishing up my BA in history and minor in english at GMU in the fall.
| 305 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:04:21pm |
I took my son to his first University of Michigan football game when he was eight…from that day on he was going to graduate from UofM, it was settled right then and there when he walked into the Big House that day
| 306 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:04:34pm |
re: #304 HappyWarrior
Cool stuff, best of luck to him regardless of where he decides. I’m finishing up my BA in history and minor in english at GMU in the fall.
he visited GMU last year on a class trip and loved it
| 307 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:04:52pm |
re: #294 SanFranciscoZionist
I will not hide behind that. I will not pretend that this is why we invaded Iraq.
I’m not arguing that issue here, just taking pedantic issue with the two points mentioned.
| 308 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:04:53pm |
| 309 |
Ming Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:05:01pm |
Some “conservatives” seem fine with looking down on people who aren’t “like them”. They’re happy to GIVE democracy to people in other countries. They seem very unhappy when people in other countries, people who are not “like them”, give democracy to themselves. Perhaps some American conservatives really want to look down on these other people. They don’t mind the Muslim Brotherhood. What scares them to death are Muslims who are peaceful, who aren’t waving Korans and shouting “Death to America”, who just want to be normal, free people. American “conservatives” are not at all enthusiastic about that.
| 310 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:05:40pm |
| 312 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:06:16pm |
re: #300 Ericus58
Or USF… ;)
I did my teaching credential at USF, but I don’t know if they have much of an engineering department.
| 313 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:06:50pm |
| 314 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:07:34pm |
re: #313 sattv4u2
He hasn’t mentioned it, but (sorry) he does have interest in U of Miami
Miami is definitely in the $$$ factor!
| 315 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:08:20pm |
re: #302 Naso Tang
You said mass murder, not genocide. Mass murder in my book means anything over, say, two and counting.
On the latter you are entitled to think he saw the light or something. Personally I have no reason to think his spots changed and experience of human nature backs me up.
My bad. As for over 2 and counting, see my #208 and #235. I can rephrase it with qualifiers every time, like “the type of m.m. justifying invasion”, but we’re not in court. And of course he was the same bastard to the end, this still doesn’t mean he was going to commit more mass murders (*ding ding ding* see the previous sentence) or genocides. There were no pre-requisites for this. If such pre-requisites were to appear (e.g. another war with another state), then yes, it was probable.
| 316 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:08:26pm |
re: #313 sattv4u2
He hasn’t mentioned it, but (sorry) he does have interest in U of Miami
good grief…better to send him to Purdue and be done with it
| 317 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:08:30pm |
re: #306 sattv4u2
he visited GMU last year on a class trip and loved it
Gllad he enjoyed it. I have to say JMU (James Madison) out in Harrisonburg, Va was my original first choice but I’ve come to love it here: Good history program, close to DC, and I’ve met a lot of interesting people here. Plus I would have never found out about the study abroad program I did in IRish history/Irish film and lit if I had gone to MAdison.
| 318 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:08:40pm |
re: #312 SanFranciscoZionist
I did my teaching credential at USF, but I don’t know if they have much of an engineering department.
Yeah, can’t say it’s their top tier department. Not bad, just not as good as Stanford/Cal Poly…..
| 319 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:09:07pm |
re: #312 SanFranciscoZionist
I did my teaching credential at USF, but I don’t know if they have much of an engineering department.
Bingo
Like I stated, he wants to go into engineering so he started by looking at a “Top 50” list when he was a freshman in H.S. and he’s been narrowing it down ever since.
It’s down to about 20 now (he’s a junior) and between the college fairs we’re attending plus campus visits this spring/ fall that will be cut down to a handful
| 320 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:09:36pm |
re: #314 Stanley Sea
Miami is definitely in the $$$ factor!
:(,, yeah,, I know !! :(
Hell,, he REALLY wants MIT!
| 321 |
austin_blue Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:09:45pm |
Afternoon, all!
Loved Beck in his Moses get-up.
I thought Mormons believed AmerIndians were the lost tribe of Israel.
| 322 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:10:24pm |
re: #317 HappyWarrior
Gllad he enjoyed it. I have to say JMU (James Madison) out in Harrisonburg, Va was my original first choice but I’ve come to love it here: Good history program, close to DC, and I’ve met a lot of interesting people here. Plus I would have never found out about the study abroad program I did in IRish history/Irish film and lit if I had gone to MAdison.
He went there on the same field trip
| 324 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:11:47pm |
re: #316 albusteve
good grief…better to send him to Purdue and be done with it
see 320
he’s aiming for MIT
I’m aiming NOT to live in a cardboard box
| 325 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:12:54pm |
re: #324 sattv4u2
see 320
he’s aiming for MIT
I’m aiming NOT to live in a cardboard box
then have him go to Stanford…. at least it will be warmer weather in your box for the most part ;)
| 326 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:14:02pm |
re: #325 Ericus58
then have him go to Stanford… at least it will be warmer weather in your box for the most part ;)
Hell,,, we have nice boxes AND warm weather here in Georgia so he can go to Ga Tech or Emory and I get to stay here!
| 327 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:14:06pm |
BTW, intlaw and all that aside, I would have been in favor of the invasion with one catch: the number of casualties would have to be guaranteed to be very small (no, won’t define it, but definitely not anywhere near 100,000). That it couldn’t have been guaranteed was clear without any benefit of hindsight. One just need not have to be delusional enough to think that the Iraq war was going to be a cakewalk.
| 328 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:14:59pm |
re: #321 austin_blue
Afternoon, all!
Loved Beck in his Moses get-up.
I thought Mormons believed AmerIndians were the lost tribe of Israel.
I believe there’s something like that in there, but I generally don’t assume that anything Beck is doing is normatively Mormon.
BTW, Walter, you still on? Do Mennonites or Amish believe in the Rapture?
| 329 |
austin_blue Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:17:24pm |
re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist
I believe there’s something like that in there, but I generally don’t assume that anything Beck is doing is normatively Mormon.
BTW, Walter, you still on? Do Mennonites or Amish believe in the Rapture?
It would explain why they have so many kids.
Oh, wait. Different kind of Rapture.
Sorry. Never mind.
| 330 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:19:57pm |
re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist
I believe there’s something like that in there, but I generally don’t assume that anything Beck is doing is normatively Mormon.
BTW, Walter, you still on? Do Mennonites or Amish believe in the Rapture?
i’m not sure america is ready for a merman president
| 331 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:20:42pm |
An interesting tidbit from CPAC….
Father and son Ron and Rand Paul wow the crowd at CPAC.
At another event later in the evening, Woods takes a stage with both Pauls and Jack Hunter, a radio host who helped write Rand’s upcoming book (working title: The Tea Party Comes to Washington.). Some of the crowd has been warmed up by an animated film, The American Dream, all about the dangers and abuses of central banking. (A staffer warns me that it’s “pretty fringe.”) Members of the crowd are more interested in a rare chat among four of their heroes.
Here are the villains of the film
The “Supreme Master Leader” is symbolic of International Jewish banking cartels. This movie was shown at Cpac. Lovely.
| 332 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:21:13pm |
re: #330 engineer dog
i’m not sure america is ready for a merman president
Why Not?
We need someone to cheer us up!!
| 333 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:22:44pm |
re: #330 engineer dog
i’m not sure america is ready for a merman president
Would he have to deliver the SOTU from a tank on the floor of the House?
| 334 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:22:58pm |
re: #331 Killgore Trout
An interesting tidbit from CPAC…
Father and son Ron and Rand Paul wow the crowd at CPAC.Here are the villains of the film
The “Supreme Master Leader” is symbolic of International Jewish banking cartels. This movie was shown at Cpac. Lovely.
When you get a better source than “SLATE” for WOWS THE CROWD I’ll care
| 335 |
Ericus58 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:23:00pm |
My time has come to a close for now - take care all.
My thought’s for those with personal loss and grief in their lives.
Steve - very glad to hear you are doing better.
To those who I might disagree with in politics and the world - I respect your positions.
Satt - hope you enjoy the box in your future ;)
| 336 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:24:43pm |
re: #334 sattv4u2
When you get a better source than “SLATE” for WOWS THE CROWD I’ll care
We’ll now the results of the straw poll soon enough. RP will win, of course.
| 337 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:24:54pm |
re: #335 Ericus58
My time has come to a close for now - take care all.
My thought’s for those with personal loss and grief in their lives.
Steve - very glad to hear you are doing better.
To those who I might disagree with in politics and the world - I respect your positions.Satt - hope you enjoy the box in your future ;)
double corrugated
two entrances (top and bottom flaps)
| 338 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:25:01pm |
Must repost best tweet from last night (h/t Jadespring)
mand0z Mohannad
The number of drunk Egyptians tonight is the answer to all the islamists-taking-over theories. #Jan25
| 339 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:25:06pm |
re: #336 Winny Spencer
We’ll now the results of the straw poll soon enough. RP will win, of course.
pimf
| 340 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:25:42pm |
| 341 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:26:03pm |
re: #336 Winny Spencer
We’ll now the results of the straw poll soon enough. RP will win, of course.
Of course, when “his” people are the only ones that vote, how could he not?
everyone else will have gone back to their lives !
“His” people don’t HAVE lives to go back TOO!
| 342 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:26:24pm |
re: #340 Winny Spencer
No, I’ll just leave it at that. What a
foolfuel.
| 343 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:26:24pm |
re: #334 sattv4u2
When you get a better source than “SLATE” for WOWS THE CROWD I’ll care
You should read the article. The Cpac leadership is pretty annoyed with the Paulians.
| 344 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:27:11pm |
re: #343 Killgore Trout
You should read the article. The Cpac leadership is pretty annoyed with the Paulians.
Hence, my point about SLATES headline!
| 345 |
RadicalModerate Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:30:03pm |
re: #331 Killgore Trout
An interesting tidbit from CPAC…
Father and son Ron and Rand Paul wow the crowd at CPAC.Here are the villains of the film
The “Supreme Master Leader” is symbolic of International Jewish banking cartels. This movie was shown at Cpac. Lovely.
Read the description under John F Kennedy:
Perhaps more than any other President, JFK captures our attention. His storied life and famous exploits are the stuff of books and movies. His assassination stopped the nation. Everyone who witnessed it knows where they were when it happened. And while we’ve all been told about Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby, most Americans polled believe there is something more to his murder, but no one really knows what. Ironically, most Americans don’t really care. Or to be fair, don’t have enough information to understand why JFK had to die.
Simply stated, John Kennedy opposed the establishment. Kennedy’s economic policies were publicly bashed by New York Governor Nelson Rockefeller and his brother and CFR member David Rockefeller. Kennedy’s own Secretary of Treasury, Douglas Dillon was part of Rockefeller’s CFR and joined forces with the crew who were determined to control America for their own interests. One of those interests we know now was the Vietnam War. Another CFR interest was continued Federal Reserve System domination. Kennedy hit them in other areas involving tax reform and eliminating foreign tax havens, directly spitting in the face of the elite bankers.
Kennedy, for all his right and wrong, determined to fight against the machine. People can talk all they want today about doing something and talk is cheap. Everyone runs their mouth on the Hill today. But Kennedy did something that no one had dared to do before or after. He started printing real money again. Red ink issued dollars printed directly from the United States Treasury. These notes did not go through the Federal Reserve System. If this treasury money were allowed to continue, the entire Rockefeller-Morgan-Rothschild scam would be revealed.
They wouldn’t let that happen.
That’s right. Jewish bankers were responsible for JFK’s assassination.
| 346 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:30:30pm |
“It’s been more than I ever could have anticipated,” he says. “I used to think, maybe I’d serve in Congress, then I’d leave, and no one would remember I was ever there.” - Ron Paul
If only.
| 347 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:32:11pm |
re: #338 Stanley Sea
Must repost best tweet from last night (h/t Jadespring)
mand0z Mohannad
The number of drunk Egyptians tonight is the answer to all the islamists-taking-over theories. #Jan25
Yeah ,, except in all my years I’ve never seen so much booze flow as one night with locals in Amman Jordan (most of the locals I was with were muslim, btw)
| 348 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:34:48pm |
re: #345 RadicalModerate
Read the description under John F Kennedy:
That’s right. Jewish bankers were responsible for JFK’s assassination.
Agh, yeah I read that. Crazy stuff.
| 349 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:34:55pm |
re: #346 Winny Spencer
“It’s been more than I ever could have anticipated,” he says. “I used to think, maybe I’d serve in Congress, then I’d leave, and no one would remember I was ever there.” - Ron Paul
If only.
he should at least try!
| 350 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:35:03pm |
re: #345 RadicalModerate
That’s right. Jewish bankers were responsible for JFK’s assassination.
The JBS is back in a big way.
| 351 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:35:43pm |
re: #347 sattv4u2
Yeah ,, except in all my years I’ve never seen so much booze flow as one night with locals in Amman Jordan (most of the locals I was with were muslim, btw)
Interesting concordance: the degree to which they share our western vices shows the degree to which they are fit to share our virtues…
| 352 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:36:11pm |
re: #345 RadicalModerate
That’s right. Jewish bankers were responsible for JFK’s assassination.
re: #350 Killgore Trout
The JBS is back in a big way.
JBS??
Jewish Bankers Society!?!?!
| 353 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:37:30pm |
This appears to be the movie….
he American Dream
| 354 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:37:37pm |
I wonder what a Ron Paul presidency would look like. Perhaps the nutty and truther, Andrew Napolitano at AG or a spot on the Supreme Court?
| 355 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:38:03pm |
re: #351 ralphieboy
Interesting concordance: the degree to which they share our western vices shows the degree to which they are fit to share our virtues…
Kinda shocked me. 1st time I was there I was doing some work for Thuraya Satellite services based in Amman. I figured I might be able to find some westerners to hang out with after work (and there were many around) but the locals wanted to take me out and the debauchery I found that was available was amazing!
| 356 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:40:25pm |
re: #354 HappyWarrior
I wonder what a Ron Paul presidency would look like. Perhaps the nutty and truther, Andrew Napolitano at AG or a spot on the Supreme Court?
For some reason, I don’t think his supporters would fare particularly well.
| 357 |
Linden Arden Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:40:30pm |
Just sat down for the Ron Paul speech entertainment at CPAC and caught about 10 minutes of Pawlenty.
The guy is a dipshit.
| 358 |
RadicalModerate Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:42:34pm |
re: #350 Killgore Trout
The JBS is back in a big way.
I’d probably go further than that, since these guys are literally sprinting to the right of the John Birch Society. As repugnant as Birchers are, I don’t ever remember seeing them rubbing elbows with folks like the Youth for Western Civilization - btw, if you look at the links on the YWC webpage, not only are groups like VDare there, but also non-apologetic White Nationalists “American Renaissance”. Birchers also didn’t tie themselves to the likes of the AFA, or other religious-based hate groups.
| 359 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:42:52pm |
re: #355 sattv4u2
We will know they are capable of real democracy when their elected representatives start sending shirtless photos to Craiglist contacts…
But really, concervative arguments about how an “Islamic country cannot embrace a foreign ideology like democracy” are amazing in light of what we have spent billions of dollars and thousands of lives for in Iraq and Afghanistan.
And the other comment offered about “We should be spreading liberty, not democracy” struck me as one of the most amazingly disconnected statements made on the subject.
| 360 |
prairiefire Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:43:31pm |
re: #359 ralphieboy
I thought that under arm curl thing was just a cliche. I guess I was wrong.
| 361 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:43:37pm |
re: #359 ralphieboy
We will know they are capable of real democracy when their elected representatives start sending shirtless photos to Craiglist contacts…
But really, concervative arguments about how an “Islamic country cannot embrace a foreign ideology like democracy” are amazing in light of what we have spent billions of dollars and thousands of lives for in Iraq and Afghanistan.
And the other comment offered about “We should be spreading liberty, not democracy” struck me as one of the most amazingly disconnected statements made on the subject.
That was a weird ass comment: “We should be spreading liberty, not democracy.” Uh ok.
| 362 |
zora Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:44:46pm |
re: #345 RadicalModerate
Read the description under John F Kennedy:
That’s right. Jewish bankers were responsible for JFK’s assassination.
oh shit. i heard some crazy conspiracy theories. that’s in the top ten. the bigotry of it is outshone by the stupidity.
| 363 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:45:46pm |
re: #360 prairiefire
I thought that under arm curl thing was just a cliche. I guess I was wrong.
I remember footage from the first Gulf War of 1991 which showed the “liberation of Kuwait” at which point I had to ask: “liberation? liberty? Kuwait is a dictatorship, the emir had dissolved Parliament in 1986”.
We are just replacing hostile dictator with friendly dictator.
I believe that is the sort of “liberty” this fellow is advocating.
| 364 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:47:16pm |
re: #358 RadicalModerate
I’d probably go further than that, since these guys are literally sprinting to the right of the John Birch Society. As repugnant as Birchers are, I don’t ever remember seeing them rubbing elbows with folks like the Youth for Western Civilization - btw, if you look at the links on the YWC webpage, not only are groups like VDare there, but also non-apologetic White Nationalists “American Renaissance”. Birchers also didn’t tie themselves to the likes of the AFA, or other religious-based hate groups.
That’s not so. JBS considered the civil rights movement to be the work of communist agitators.
Here’s the president of JBS yesterday at CPAC talking about how god is going to kill the homosexuals (at about 4:30)
| 365 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:47:19pm |
re: #361 HappyWarrior
That was a weird ass comment: “We should be spreading liberty, not democracy.” Uh ok.
Well, more democracy doesn’t equal more liberty, cf. Gaza. Democracy is more of a pre-requisite, although in certain cases there is more liberty under an “enlightened despot” than there is under a “rule of the majority”.
| 366 |
Linden Arden Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:47:30pm |
re: #362 zora
oh shit. i heard some crazy conspiracy theories. that’s in the top ten. the bigotry of it is outshone by the stupidity.
You’re right. That’s a ridiculous pile of CT.
Can’t tell if the comment was serious or not.
| 367 |
Kronocide Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:50:04pm |
re: #327 Sergey Romanov
Sergey, I’m just reading to catch up and don’t have time to engage (if there’s any meat left on the bone at all), but you’ve sustained a compelling point. Catch me later if there’s something to pick up.
The primary reason for Iraq was a long term geopolitical hedge based on a hunch. Probably a rational hunch. The problem is the way in which it was sold based on faulty rationale, and once information started returning that maybe the WMD’s really weren’t there they engaged in internal and external denial. I think history will recognize that.
The only real success of it was the initial invasion and securing of the country, a relative ‘cakewalk.’ Nothing else has been a cakewalk. The only redemption is if Iraq succeeds in staying stable and evolving into a relatively democratic and consistent government with Western sensibilities. It would be amazing if that happened despite the failures of the US in initiating and administrating the process.
| 368 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:52:05pm |
re: #365 Sergey Romanov
Well, more democracy doesn’t equal more liberty, cf. Gaza. Democracy is more of a pre-requisite, although in certain cases there is more liberty under an “enlightened despot” than there is under a “rule of the majority”.
As long as that despot is “enlightened” in our interests.
Democracy does require a certain amount of stability in order to exist: there cannot be free and fair elections in a corrupt country, nor can there be stable elected governments in a socially, politically or militarily economically unstable country. Gaza is proof of that.
So was Germany in 1918, France in 1789, Russia in 1917, China in 1912, Mexico in 1824, etc…
But when we start installing dictators in the name of “liberty” we are opening ourselves up to a lot of seriously unpleasant consequences. We are going to be seeing a lot more of them in the future.
| 369 |
RadicalModerate Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:55:00pm |
re: #364 Killgore Trout
That’s not so. JBS considered the civil rights movement to be the work of communist agitators.
Here’s the president of JBS yesterday at CPAC talking about how god is going to kill the homosexuals (at about 4:30)[Video]
That may be a result of today’s JBS moving further to the social right then. Back in the 50’s/60’s, they were no friends of the Klan/CoCC, or of fundamentalist Christians.
Antisemitic, racist, anti-Mormon, anti-Masonic, and religious groups criticized the group’s acceptance of Jews, non-whites, Masons, and Mormons. These opponents accused Welch of harboring feminist, ecumenical, and evolutionary ideas.[33][34][35]
Keep in mind, Birchers from the 50s/60s thought that EVERYONE who was part of their group was part of the International Communist Conspiracy.
| 370 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:55:35pm |
re: #368 ralphieboy
It’s more of an academic point, where are you gonna find an enlightened tyrant these days? ;)
Another issue is that this is said by the same people who are not very much pro-liberty at home. Oh, they’re all for having a liberty to teach the Bible in public schools, to take away women’s reproductive rights, to throw gays in jail (the opposition to Lawrence v. Texas is still there), to not let atheists be officials, etc., etc. I mean, what kind of liberty would they want to spread?
| 371 |
RadicalModerate Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:55:51pm |
re: #369 RadicalModerate
*pimf* “everyone who was NOT part of their group”.
| 372 |
Single-handed sailor Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:56:45pm |
re: #359 ralphieboy
And the other comment offered about “We should be spreading liberty, not democracy” struck me as one of the most amazingly disconnected statements made on the subject.
WTF does that even mean? What is liberty without democracy?
| 373 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:58:38pm |
re: #370 Sergey Romanov
In the good old days of the Cold War, anyone who was anti-communist was “enlightened” enough for our tastes. With Mubarak, it was someone who was anti-Islamist enough for our tastes.
| 374 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:59:20pm |
re: #372 mracb
WTF does that even mean? What is liberty without democracy?
It means we should continue to support dictators who support our foreign policy agenda, regardless of how corrupt and disconnected they are.
| 375 |
Amory Blaine Sat, Feb 12, 2011 1:59:24pm |
re: #163 Sergey Romanov
What utter, braindead, complete bullshit. How many people did Saddam kill in, say, 2000? 2001? 2002? 2003? Summing up everything from 1979 to 2003 and then dividing it evenly is a reprehensible manipulation. There is no evidence that Saddam was engaging in mass murder (much less genocide) in the last years of his reign, nor that he was going to repeat.
Exactly. We had Saddam locked down and were patrolling the no fly zone for a decade before the invasion. I was screaming at my tv for REAL photos of these weapons. How can the worlds most powerful military patrol and detain an entire country for a decade and not come up with irrefutable proof of WMDs? Along with those bullshit cave diagrams of sophisticated Dr evil technologies. We were lied to plain and simple.
| 376 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:01:04pm |
re: #373 ralphieboy
True, but that’s enlightened in scarequotes v. really enlightened, and by the latter I mean someone who forces upon the unwilling people a de facto secular state and the acceptance of minority rights.
| 377 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:01:55pm |
Conservatives have come a very long way since the presidency of George W. Bush
In some ways, yes. The Republican Party is catering more to the loons, and there are more loons that have been elected to office - but from where I sit “conservatives” have been pretty wacked-out for a while now.
I mean, sure, people refer to folks like Buckley as a standard to show the decline, and Buckley was smart, gifted with language, and could formulate an extremely coherent argument and all… something fairly rare among conservatives these days - but he also was initially a supporter of segregation, whined about “communists” and the “welfare state,” etc.
| 378 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:03:20pm |
re: #376 Sergey Romanov
True, but that’s enlightened in scarequotes v. really enlightened, and by the latter I mean someone who forces upon the unwilling people a de facto secular state and the acceptance of minority rights.
You mean like the role of the Army in Turkey and Pakistan?
On the other hand, that’s also what we had with the Shah of Iran, and look where that got us.
| 379 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:04:57pm |
| 380 |
lostlakehiker Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:05:02pm |
re: #277 Naso Tang
Regardless of the argument for invasion, he was committing 4: anytime anyone displeased him. How many constitutes “mass” ?
5: One has every reason to think he would do so in the future. The reason is the same one that we use to justify locking some people up for life, or executing them.
And then there’s the “habitat” genocide. The forcible removal of Kurds from any halfway nice area, and the destruction of the marshes between the Tigris and the Euphrates, which had the effect of utterly ruining the “marsh Arabs”.
And now for an observation on the original post: what the guys in Maddow’s clip are saying is not pretty. But this is not the only face of conservatism in general, or of “neocons” in particular. Fox News, of all places if you’re thinking along the lines of the post, had an interview with Paul Wolfowitz this morning. Wolfowitz was saying that we should celebrate this revolution and be glad for the people of Egypt rather than constantly fretting that it might somehow turn bad.
And reminding his interlocutor that some people had been saying in 1989 that the fall of the Berlin wall was a bad thing and scary because you just knew a united Germany would get up to no good.
Revolutions don’t ALWAYS go bad. There can be happy endings, and now is not the time to be raining on Egypt’s parade. Down the road, he said, if things do take a turn for the worse, we can bring it up then. And that if it came to that, we’d have a more sympathetic audience than if we took a line now that gained for ourselves a name as enemies of the people.
| 381 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:05:08pm |
re: #377 Talking Point Detective
In some ways, yes. The Republican Party is catering more to the loons, and there are more loons that have been elected to office - but from where I sit “conservatives” have been pretty wacked-out for a while now.
I mean, sure, people refer to folks like Buckley as a standard to show the decline, and Buckley was smart, gifted with language, and could formulate an extremely coherent argument and all… something fairly rare among conservatives these days - but he also was initially a supporter of segregation, whined about “communists” and the “welfare state,” etc.
LOL, nice that you mention that, it fits with the theme of democracy as being discussed above.
A quote from Buckley:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
Also some other stuff:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
| 382 |
Romantic Heretic Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:12:25pm |
re: #361 HappyWarrior
That was a weird ass comment: “We should be spreading liberty, not democracy.” Uh ok.
Freedom is Slavery, dontcha know? /
| 384 |
Kronocide Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:15:40pm |
Wow, I can’t help to think about the benefits of democracy 10 years ago when we were selling the Iraq invasion. Now all these Muslims are too stupid and backwards to have democracy.
I’ll noodle on this while I roust about town with Wifey. BBL.
(shakes head….)
| 385 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:18:30pm |
re: #331 Killgore Trout
An interesting tidbit from CPAC…
Father and son Ron and Rand Paul wow the crowd at CPAC.
From that article:
The many events hosted by the Campaign for Liberty reinforce this. They’re reinforcing theories that have leapt from Pauls’ obsessions into frequent Fox News topics. But that’s the intro-level stuff. This is the hard stuff. Early on Thursday, an overflowing room is given over to Tom Woods, a paleoconservative scholar who helped Ron Paul write his books and who’d subsequently seen his own books become best-sellers.
More about Thomas Woods:
…Woods was present at the founding of the League of the South,[5] and has contributed to its newsletter.[6] His past membership in the group has generated criticism,[7] but Woods asserts his involvement was limited…External links
* Thomas Woods Official web site (with appearances schedule)
* Thomas Woods archive at LewRockwell.com
* Thomas Woods media archive at Mises.org
* Thomas Woods archive at TakiMag.com
* Thomas Woods archive at HumanEvents.com
* Thomas Woods archive at Independent.org
* Thomas Woods archive at ISI.org
* The Catholic Church: Builder of Civilization
| 386 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:20:48pm |
re: #361 HappyWarrior
That was a weird ass comment: “We should be spreading liberty, not democracy.” Uh ok.
It makes sense in Teahadi.
Seriously, it does. Remember that communication among the cult is not about words - it’s about the feelings imparted. That’s why Sarah Palin is a great orator to them; she can make random noises and because they have an appropriate emotional response, it’s pure music. To be fair, this is not limited to Conservative culties - all humans feel more than they think like this, but the cult has made it a virtue and given themselves entirely over to this as a substitute for rational thought.
In this case, Obama can be heard using the word ‘democracy’. Therefore, a cult demagogue must explain in feelings why democracy is bad when Obama says it, even though democracy is otherwise a good word. This phrase does that job - it substitutes another word that they know is a good word, and they can thus feel that Obama’s democracy is bad, because ‘liberty’ is the noise that gives them a good feeling instead.
Had he used the word ‘liberty’, they would simply substitute another noise. Freedom, perhaps.
| 387 |
lostlakehiker Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:21:32pm |
re: #208 Sergey Romanov
Alternative to invasion: not invading.
The “entire world” didn’t believe in WMD, and those who did did not necessarily see the need to invade. But leaving faith in WMDs aside as a separate issue, “killing one’s people” is a weasel phrase. He was not committing mass murder during the years after he did commit the genocide on Kurds, certainly not in the years before the invasion. Executions - yes, like any authoritarian/totalitarian state. Executions and torture have never been considered an excuse for invasion and for risking the lives of ten thousand times more people. Heck, Mubarak was “killing his own people” by this standard, the US didn’t invade. I’m not “splitting hairs”, I’m objecting to historical revisionism and false claims.
There is just no comparison between Saddam and Mubarak. M was a run of the mill oppressive S.O.B. He didn’t go in for mass murder, he didn’t start wars, his police didn’t [well, they did.] But you get the main idea. Mr. Not Over The Top. Saddam, on the other hand, was doing a remarkable imitation of evil incarnate.
The human cost to ordinary Iraqis of keeping Saddam in the box we’d put him in after the first war has to be factored into any accounting of the merits of the second war. The prospect of Uday or Qusay at the helm down the road has to be factored in too. A straight line extrapolation of Saddam and sons as things stood, them boxed in, has a lot of Iraqis living miserable lives, and a lot dying for lack of basic sanitation and the like.
An extrapolation of Saddam out of his box must include other lamentable outcomes. Run the tape of history back to January 2003 and play the game the other way and don’t invade, and it will frequently turn out worse still than the path we did choose.
A sufficiently cruel police state is immune from a velvet revolution. It can grow weak, as nobody trusts anybody and nobody has any zest for life, but nations can carry on that way for a long time if there are no major external shocks. Who can say how long the North Korean Kim dynasty may last?
| 388 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:25:44pm |
re: #387 lostlakehiker
IOW, if not for the invasion, the Iraqis would have been miserable. Of course now they’re miserable PLUS at least 100,000 dead PLUS hundreds of thousands lives ruined by the war one way or another (wounded, maimed, lost relatives, lost property etc.).
| 392 |
TedStriker Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:29:53pm |
| 393 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:30:15pm |
re: #386 Renaissance_Man
In one sense, it makes sense: democracies need a few basic things, like literacy, a stable legal system, a working infrastructure, etc. in order to be able to hold free and fair elections in in order for the elected parties to be able to govern.
What did we do in Iraq? We embargoed them for decades, bombed the sh*t out of them, invaded them, and then declared them a “democracy”.
As for Afghanistan, we hardly make the pretense that Karzai is more than an appointed figurehead and that the Loya Jirga is just a cartel of local powerbrokers.
| 394 |
freetoken Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:35:14pm |
Closer… closer…
Sarah Palin Hires Former Bob Dole Campaigner, Readies for Possible Presidential Run
Sarah Palin is making news on the final day of the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) and she didn’t even attend. CNN announced late Feb. 11 that Palin hired former Bob Dole aide Michael Glassner as her chief of staff.
The move is seen as moving forward with Palin’s plans to seek the Republican nomination for president in 2012 by Politico and Slate. Glassner also served on Sen. John McCain’s staff during his campaign for president in 2008.
The announcement came on the day before Palin could have been a keynote speaker at the CPAC in Washington in front of thousands of her adoring fans. ABC News reports those attending the conference don’t really miss her presence and understand if she has other obligations.
Texan Nick Burt told ABC of Palin’s absence, “Sarah is probably on TV. I don’t know, but I really don’t care. She’s just a media personality to me.”
[…]
| 395 |
freetoken Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:38:05pm |
Interesting slide show:
How Does China Feed So Many People?How Does China Feed So Many People?
| 396 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:38:22pm |
TheFix The Fix
#cpac11 straw poll results: Ron Paul 30, Romney 23, Gary Johnson 6, Christie 6, Gingrich 5, Pawlenty 4, Bachmann 4, Daniels 4.
Was Sister Sarah on the ballot?
| 397 |
freetoken Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:39:01pm |
re: #396 Stanley Sea
She wasn’t there… see the news article just above.
| 398 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:39:07pm |
re: #395 freetoken
Interesting slide show:
How Does China Feed So Many People?How Does China Feed So Many People?
General Tso’s Chicken?
| 399 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:40:58pm |
re: #397 freetoken
She wasn’t there… see the news article just above.
Got it. So you have to be there to be on the ballot?
| 400 |
Amory Blaine Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:41:21pm |
re: #398 Killgore Trout
I’m lookin to buy a wok this weekend. Does anyone know of a chain store that might have a decent one for sale?
| 401 |
freetoken Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:41:59pm |
re: #398 Killgore Trout
I imagine that is how Portland’s wholesale food market will look, later on in this century when 2 million Californians flee to Portland for refuge.
You’re going to need lots more frogs to supply the crowd…
| 402 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:43:49pm |
WestWingReport West Wing Report
President has been working the phones today, discussing Egypt w/British PM Cameron, Jordan’s King Abdullah & Turkish PM Erdogan
| 403 |
freetoken Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:44:21pm |
re: #397 freetoken
re: #399 Stanley Sea
No, not necessarily, but she only got a token vote:
Texas Rep. Ron Paul: 30 percent
Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney: 23 percent
Former New Mexico Gov. Gary Johnson: 6 percent
New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie: 6 percent
Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich: 5 percent
Former Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty: 4 percent
Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann: 4 percent
Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels: 4 percent
Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin: 3 percent
Former talk show host Herman Cain: 2 percent
Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee: 2 percent
Former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum: 2 percent
South Dakota Sen. John Thune: 2 percent
U.S. Ambassador to China Jon Huntsman: 1 percent
Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour: 1 percent
Others: 5 percent
Undecided: 1 percent
| 404 |
freetoken Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:44:57pm |
Because she wasn’t there her people weren’t there. This is a relatively small crowd and one’s entourage of fans makes a difference.
| 405 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:45:30pm |
re: #399 Stanley Sea
Got it. So you have to be there to be on the ballot?
daveweigel daveweigel
More straw poll: Palin 3%, Drudge coverboy Mitch Daniels 4%, Huntsman and Barbour last with 1% eac
| 406 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:45:44pm |
re: #400 Amory Blaine
I’m lookin to buy a wok this weekend. Does anyone know of a chain store that might have a decent one for sale?
Any decent store will have a serviceable wok. I personally like the stainless steel ones myself but most cooks would probably opt for the standard non stick ones. Buy the biggest and heaviest one you can get.
| 407 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:47:19pm |
Those results don’t bode well for Daniels or anyone else who actually wants to have a primary focus on fiscal issues rather than going on about how those damn gays and muslims are bringing down this country. I know it’s just a strawpoll but this isn’t a good sign for Daniels.
| 408 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:48:14pm |
re: #407 HappyWarrior
Those results don’t bode well for Daniels or anyone else who actually wants to have a primary focus on fiscal issues rather than going on about how those damn gays and muslims are bringing down this country. I know it’s just a strawpoll but this isn’t a good sign for Daniels.
Or Huntsman.
But he can get the indies, that’s what should count.
| 409 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:48:51pm |
re: #401 freetoken
I imagine that is how Portland’s wholesale food market will look, later on in this century when 2 million Californians flee to Portland for refuge.
You’re going to need lots more frogs to supply the crowd…
It’s a bummer that the farmer’s market haven’t taken off here yet. They try to get them started from time to time but they don’t last very long. Eventually they’ll catch on. For now the big craze is food carts on every corner.
| 410 |
freetoken Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:49:06pm |
I’m assuming that Romney’s support comes not only from his name recognition but that groups like GOProud would flock to him as one of the few non-hostile-to-gays Republicans.
| 411 |
freetoken Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:51:05pm |
re: #409 Killgore Trout
One of the many things I liked about living in Japan were the local markets, usually older couples who still practice neighborhood businesses, and how they’d know just which farmer/supplier to get for the seasonal fruits. They’re knowledgeable and find the best figs, mandarins, etc.
| 412 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:52:17pm |
re: #408 Stanley Sea
Or Huntsman.
But he can get the indies, that’s what should count.
They don’t care, they want a “true conservative” whatever that really meanes.
| 413 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:52:49pm |
Heh
Sandmonkey Sandmonkey
It’s also feels weird watching CNN or BBC and watch them talk about something else than us. #attentionwhorewithdrawels
| 414 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:53:16pm |
re: #346 Winny Spencer
“It’s been more than I ever could have anticipated,” he says. “I used to think, maybe I’d serve in Congress, then I’d leave, and no one would remember I was ever there.” - Ron Paul
If only.
How can we miss him if he won’t go away?
| 415 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:53:37pm |
| 416 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:55:22pm |
re: #411 freetoken
One of the many things I liked about living in Japan were the local markets, usually older couples who still practice neighborhood businesses, and how they’d know just which farmer/supplier to get for the seasonal fruits. They’re knowledgeable and find the best figs, mandarins, etc.
I think one of the major stumbling block is the amount of food regulations here in the states. I’m pretty sure that to sell anything you’d have to be an FDA approved and inspected farm.
If there was a guerrilla market where backyard growers could show up and sell it would probably do pretty well.
| 417 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:55:55pm |
re: #351 ralphieboy
Interesting concordance: the degree to which they share our western vices shows the degree to which they are fit to share our virtues…
One of my dad’s friends from his local bar is a Turkish lady who will lecture all and sundry about how her dad and uncles were perfectly good Muslims, who drank scotch except during Ramadan, ‘because we don’t buy into that Arab extremist nonsense’.
| 418 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:56:32pm |
re: #359 ralphieboy
We will know they are capable of real democracy when their elected representatives start sending shirtless photos to Craiglist contacts…
I think Putin disproves that theory.
| 419 |
Usually refered to as anyways Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:57:13pm |
Iraqi officials say a mass grave containing more than 150 bodies has been uncovered north-east of Baghdad.
| 420 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:57:35pm |
re: #361 HappyWarrior
That was a weird ass comment: “We should be spreading liberty, not democracy.” Uh ok.
Well, coming from the People of the Tea, it would make perfect sense. (I don’t know who said it.) After all, democracy put Obama into office, and has taken away their liberty!!
| 421 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:57:55pm |
re: #417 SanFranciscoZionist
One of my dad’s friends from his local bar is a Turkish lady who will lecture all and sundry about how her dad and uncles were perfectly good Muslims, who drank scotch except during Ramadan, ‘because we don’t buy into that Arab extremist nonsense’.
heh.
I want to meet this lady.
| 422 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:58:09pm |
re: #408 Stanley Sea
Or Huntsman.
But he can get the indies, that’s what should count.
It would, in a more representative political system. In the binary current system, however, it’s about making your own side turn up.
| 423 |
freetoken Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:58:36pm |
re: #416 Killgore Trout
Not sure about the FDA thing… but I’ve been to places in this country where little “farmers” markets pop up with what appeared to be small time operations.
Even here in San Diego, years ago, there was a large building downtown that housed a “farmers market”, which was mostly dominated by Mexicans (including buyers). I don’t know if it still exists, as the last time I was there was probably 20 years ago.
| 424 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:59:11pm |
re: #365 Sergey Romanov
Well, more democracy doesn’t equal more liberty, cf. Gaza. Democracy is more of a pre-requisite, although in certain cases there is more liberty under an “enlightened despot” than there is under a “rule of the majority”.
As a friend commented to me yesterday, there’s more to democracy than having elections once.
That’s the Gaza problem.
| 425 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:59:25pm |
| 426 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:59:47pm |
re: #423 freetoken
Not sure about the FDA thing… but I’ve been to places in this country where little “farmers” markets pop up with what appeared to be small time operations.
Even here in San Diego, years ago, there was a large building downtown that housed a “farmers market”, which was mostly dominated by Mexicans (including buyers). I don’t know if it still exists, as the last time I was there was probably 20 years ago.
I believe it’s still there. But we have a local one here now on Wednesdays in Mission Hills, so I haven’t make the trek. Need to make a point. CHEAP FLOWERS!!!!
| 427 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Feb 12, 2011 2:59:59pm |
re: #420 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, coming from the People of the Tea, it would make perfect sense. (I don’t know who said it.) After all, democracy put Obama into office, and has taken away their liberty!!
The first hardcore proto-TP I ran into, in the 70’s, was firmly committed to the theme: “America is a republic, not a democracy.” He was my boss, for 6 weeks.
| 428 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:00:33pm |
re: #369 RadicalModerate
That may be a result of today’s JBS moving further to the social right then. Back in the 50’s/60’s, they were no friends of the Klan/CoCC, or of fundamentalist Christians.
Keep in mind, Birchers from the 50s/60s thought that EVERYONE who was part of their group was part of the International Communist Conspiracy.
Now there’s no one that we’re certain the Kremlin doesn’t touch
We think that Westbrook Pegler doth protest a bit too much
We only hail the hero from whom we got our name
We’re not sure what he did but he’s our hero just the same
| 429 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:02:05pm |
re: #371 RadicalModerate
*pimf* “everyone who was NOT part of their group”.
Your version works too. Ah, and then there’s Dylan…
Well, I was feelin’ sad and feelin’ blue
I didn’t know what in the world I wus gonna do
Them Communists they wus comin’ around
They wus in the air
They wus on the ground
They wouldn’t gimme no peace …
So I run down most hurriedly
And joined up with the John Birch Society
I got me a secret membership card
And started off a-walkin’ down the road
Yee-hoo, I’m a real John Bircher now!
Look out you Commies!
| 430 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:02:36pm |
re: #372 mracb
WTF does that even mean? What is liberty without democracy?
You’re free to do what you want, just not make any decisions about what that is.
///
| 431 |
freetoken Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:02:42pm |
| 432 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:03:02pm |
re: #373 ralphieboy
In the good old days of the Cold War, anyone who was anti-communist was “enlightened” enough for our tastes. With Mubarak, it was someone who was anti-Islamist enough for our tastes.
Mubarak got on the gravy train long before we were all that worried about Islamists.
| 433 |
freetoken Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:03:24pm |
re: #426 Stanley Sea
I believe it’s still there. But we have a local one here now on Wednesdays in Mission Hills, so I haven’t make the trek. Need to make a point. CHEAP FLOWERS!!!
All around the county there are 1-day things… and from what I’ve seen flowers do seem to be a staple of these short-term markets.
| 434 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:04:54pm |
re: #398 Killgore Trout
General Tso’s Chicken?
There’s a delightful Simpson’s episode where they all go to China so Marge’s sister can adopt a little girl. As they descend into Beijing, they spot the General Tsao Memorial, which is a giant take-out box.
| 435 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:05:13pm |
re: #420 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, coming from the People of the Tea, it would make perfect sense. (I don’t know who said it.) After all, democracy put Obama into office, and has taken away their liberty!!
If I recall SFZ it was one of the Fox pundits. Not Beck but some other blowhard.
| 436 |
freetoken Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:05:40pm |
Speaking of flowers:
Florists squeezed by higher rose prices
U.S. florists say they have been paying more for roses wholesale as Valentine’s Day approaches.
At Star Florist in Kendall, Fla., Enaya and Mason Lewis say they are not passing the higher price along to their customers, The Miami Herald reports. Instead, it is cutting into their profits from a holiday that is to florists what Christmas is to department stores.
“The economy is bad and people are not spending like they used to,” said Enaya Lewis. “People are shopping around a lot more. They keep coming in here, they look at the flowers and the prices and keep saying, ‘We’ll be back, we’ll be back’ .”
Florists say about 40 percent of their annual profits come from Valentine’s Day with long-stemmed red roses the big seller. About 65 percent of roses in the United States come from Colombia.
A combination of flooding in Colombia, higher shipping costs and a weaker dollar have sent wholesale prices up 5 to 25 percent, florists said. In the Miami area, a dozen long-stemmed roses are retailing from under $20 at supermarkets to $100 or more at upscale florists.
| 437 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:05:52pm |
| 438 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:06:54pm |
re: #433 freetoken
All around the county there are 1-day things… and from what I’ve seen flowers do seem to be a staple of these short-term markets.
They are too expensive - the ones @ that market downtown are cheaper!
| 439 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:07:13pm |
re: #369 RadicalModerate
That may be a result of today’s JBS moving further to the social right then. Back in the 50’s/60’s, they were no friends of the Klan/CoCC, or of fundamentalist Christians.
Keep in mind, Birchers from the 50s/60s thought that EVERYONE who was part of their group was part of the International Communist Conspiracy.
If anyone wants to pull on a few more conspiratorial threads, start tracking the foundation and compadres of the Church League of America. All our current crap has deep roots.
Here’s a start:
[Link: sites.google.com…]
| 440 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:07:17pm |
re: #423 freetoken
Not sure about the FDA thing… but I’ve been to places in this country where little “farmers” markets pop up with what appeared to be small time operations.
Even here in San Diego, years ago, there was a large building downtown that housed a “farmers market”, which was mostly dominated by Mexicans (including buyers). I don’t know if it still exists, as the last time I was there was probably 20 years ago.
We’ve got a small farmer’s market that meets twice a week in the parking lot of the minimall near my house—and a BIG weekly one in downtown San Francisco, near Civic Center.
| 441 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:09:59pm |
re: #395 freetoken
Interesting slide show:
How Does China Feed So Many People?How Does China Feed So Many People?
OMG.
That meat isn’t in a nice foam tray with nice sanitary shrink-wrap over it!
OMG.
I have a suspicion many Americans wouldn’t go near such a market; they would have no clue what it would normally smell like, and I suspect the odors would be overwhelming. Weird thing to think of, I guess, but we are just so far removed from the production of our food, most of us have no clue what happens to it before it shows up in a store.
| 442 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:10:08pm |
re: #427 Decatur Deb
The first hardcore proto-TP I ran into, in the 70’s, was firmly committed to the theme: “America is a republic, not a democracy.” He was my boss, for 6 weeks.
There are people obsessed with that catchphrase, and I’ve yet to get one of them to actually connect it to a real idea. OK. We are a Republic, this is true. (I must insist that we are also a democracy, we are just not a DIRECT democracy.) What does that MEAN to you?
I can’t get a real answer.
| 443 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:10:13pm |
| 444 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:10:31pm |
Sandmonkey Sandmonkey
I await the “HOW THE FUCK DID WE LET THIS MONSTER RULE US FOR 30 YEARS? HOW?” conversations with some people. They are coming. #JAN25
| 445 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:12:59pm |
| 446 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:13:21pm |
re: #441 reine.de.tout
OMG.
That meat isn’t in a nice foam tray with nice sanitary shrink-wrap over it!
OMG.
I have a suspicion many Americans wouldn’t go near such a market; they would have no clue what it would normally smell like, and I suspect the odors would be overwhelming. Weird thing to think of, I guess, but we are just so far removed from the production of our food, most of us have no clue what happens to it before it shows up in a store.
Aside from the scale, it doesn’t look that different from SF’s Chinatown markets.
| 448 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:15:05pm |
re: #442 SanFranciscoZionist
There are people obsessed with that catchphrase, and I’ve yet to get one of them to actually connect it to a real idea. OK. We are a Republic, this is true. (I must insist that we are also a democracy, we are just not a DIRECT democracy.) What does that MEAN to you?
I can’t get a real answer.
Well, what it means to me doesn’t really matter.
As I understand it, the founders didn’t want the majority to run rampant over the minority, so they set us up as we are.
| 449 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:15:20pm |
| 450 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:15:21pm |
re: #442 SanFranciscoZionist
There are people obsessed with that catchphrase, and I’ve yet to get one of them to actually connect it to a real idea. OK. We are a Republic, this is true. (I must insist that we are also a democracy, we are just not a DIRECT democracy.) What does that MEAN to you?
I can’t get a real answer.
We traveled together through the South, doing baby pictures (me with stuffed frog on head), so I was in no position to educate him. He was sure the words were mutually exclusive. Guy was also a deeply-fundamental ex-Canadian League football player. We didn’t drink much together.
| 451 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:15:24pm |
re: #444 Stanley Sea
Sandmonkey Sandmonkey
I await the “HOW THE FUCK DID WE LET THIS MONSTER RULE US FOR 30 YEARS? HOW?” conversations with some people. They are coming. #JAN25
good question and instead of looking for blame here in the US, the Egyptians should look inward for the answer….like I said two weeks ago, just because Mu signed the CDAccords doesn’t mean they have to put up with him….I get tired of that shit
| 453 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:16:54pm |
re: #448 ggt
Well, what it means to me doesn’t really matter.
As I understand it, the founders didn’t want the majority to run rampant over the minority, so they set us up as we are.
Exactly. Quite a smart decision, too.
I’m just baffled by the way this simple statement of fact gets flung around with such fury, and yet, it’s almost impossible to connect it to a real argument.
| 454 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:17:46pm |
re: #450 Decatur Deb
We traveled together through the South, doing baby pictures (me with stuffed frog on head), so I was in no position to educate him.
Laughing so hard I’m coughing, here.
| 455 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:18:43pm |
re: #453 SanFranciscoZionist
Exactly. Quite a smart decision, too.
I’m just baffled by the way this simple statement of fact gets flung around with such fury, and yet, it’s almost impossible to connect it to a real argument.
Word are arbitrary, concepts are not.
| 456 |
BishopX Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:19:22pm |
re: #411 freetoken
FDA regs typically kick in based on size of the operation. Also, farmers markets are far and away the best places for fresh produce in the US, outside of farm gate sales.
| 457 |
Jadespring Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:21:45pm |
re: #451 albusteve
good question and instead of looking for blame here in the US, the Egyptians should look inward for the answer…like I said two weeks ago, just because Mu signed the CDAccords doesn’t mean they have to put up with him…I get tired of that shit
And what makes you think that Egyptians and those involved this past week don’t or haven’t looked inward? Sure the US is mentioned at times but it sure doesn’t mesh with everything I’ve been reading that those Egyptians have been putting out.
| 458 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:22:37pm |
freepy freeps greet cpac
Losertarians trying to give the next election to the donkeys. Thanks.
It’s a pro gay, pro open borders and pro pot, meet.
Those straw polls are rigged because Ron Paul and Mitt Romney bus in their groupies, pay their lodging and pay their admission.
I believe it. Both are underhanded skunks.
and react to the fox poll
Guess I will have to write in who I want this year.
The GOP seems to be suicidal and going with the losers from the last time.
Face it, Huckleberry is a spineless wuss and would be putty in the hands of obama. He’d end up like McCain, telling us what a good guy Obama is and we don’t need to be afraid of his second term. No thank yew.
Recent history tells us that it’s a coalition of the main stream media and democrat operatives that decide the GOP presidential candidate.
Real conservatives have figured out that MSFox News is really just as bad as the other news networks
| 459 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:29:35pm |
re: #458 engineer dog
freepy freeps greet cpac
Losertarians trying to give the next election to the donkeys. Thanks.
It’s a pro gay, pro open borders and pro pot, meet.
Those straw polls are rigged because Ron Paul and Mitt Romney bus in their groupies, pay their lodging and pay their admission.
I believe it. Both are underhanded skunks.
and react to the fox poll
when I trashed Fox 3-4 years ago, the republicans howled with indignity…I hate the MSM and that includes Fox
Guess I will have to write in who I want this year.
The GOP seems to be suicidal and going with the losers from the last time.
Face it, Huckleberry is a spineless wuss and would be putty in the hands of obama. He’d end up like McCain, telling us what a good guy Obama is and we don’t need to be afraid of his second term. No thank yew.
Recent history tells us that it’s a coalition of the main stream media and democrat operatives that decide the GOP presidential candidate.
Real conservatives have figured out that MSFox News is really just as bad as the other news networks
| 460 |
RadicalModerate Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:29:39pm |
re: #458 engineer dog
So, the CPAC attendees weren’t isolationist, bigoted, or nationalistic enough for the freepers?
And apparently anyone to the left of NewsMax, Brietbart, or WND aren’t to be trusted now.
| 461 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:30:38pm |
re: #459 albusteve
when I would trash Fox 3-4 years ago, the republicans howled with indignation….I hate the MSM and that includes Fox
| 462 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:30:59pm |
re: #403 freetoken
re: #399 Stanley Sea
No, not necessarily, but she only got a token vote:
Sure is a lot of “formers” on that list. I think when it comes to being president they will all be “never was”.
| 463 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:32:38pm |
What does this mean? How can they have President, when they don’t have a country?
Palestinians Announce Plans For Presidential Election
“The timing is to divert people’s attention from the corruption of the [Palestinian] Authority,” said a spokesman, Ismail Radwan.
Erekat, meanwhile, said he resigned as chief negotiator because the internal documents about negotiations with Israel were leaked by someone from his office. Al-Jazeera has said it obtained more than 1,600 documents it alleged showed that Palestinian negotiators secretly offered far-reaching concessions to Israel.
The documents showed that during peace negotiations with Israel in 2008, the Palestinians were prepared to make significant concessions on the final borders of a Palestinian state and on the fate of millions of Palestinian refugees and their descendants.
| 464 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:34:18pm |
I’d love to see the GOP lose their collective minds and nominate Ron Paul, but that won’t happen. The guy couldn’t get out of single digits in the last election and would fail miserably against Obama. He’s older than McCain, for crying out loud.
| 465 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:36:27pm |
“How I Killed Pluto and Why It Had It Coming.”
poor Pluto …
| 466 |
RadicalModerate Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:36:41pm |
re: #464 Lidane
I’d love to see the GOP lose their collective minds and nominate Ron Paul, but that won’t happen. The guy couldn’t get out of single digits in the last election and would fail miserably against Obama. He’s older than McCain, for crying out loud.
I can’t see Ron Paul making a serious run. RAND on the other hand - I could see an attempt to draft him onto the ticket.
| 467 |
Jadespring Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:37:21pm |
Okay I’m taking a poll. What should I have for dinner?
This bag of doritos or this can of chickpeas?
| 468 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:37:45pm |
All right. Who has my 5 mm allen wrench? It was right here. Now there are two floating around somewhere….
| 469 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:38:26pm |
re: #467 Jadespring
Okay I’m taking a poll. What should I have for dinner?
This bag of doritos or this can of chickpeas?
Whip chickpeas into hummus, eat on Doritos.
| 470 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:39:06pm |
re: #463 ggt
What does this mean? How can they have President, when they don’t have a country?
But how can they have a country, when they don’t have a president?
/
| 471 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:39:23pm |
re: #467 Jadespring
Okay I’m taking a poll. What should I have for dinner?
This bag of doritos or this can of chickpeas?
Both. Just turn the can of chickpeas into hummus first:
[Link: mideastfood.about.com…]
| 472 |
Jadespring Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:40:05pm |
re: #469 Decatur Deb
Whip chickpeas into hummus, eat on Doritos.
Whipping sounds like way too much work right now. Maybe I’ll just mush them with a fork and add a bit of garlic powder and lemon juice.
I’m really wishing I had some sort of delivery right now.
| 473 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:40:08pm |
re: #460 RadicalModerate
So, the CPAC attendees weren’t isolationist, bigoted, or nationalistic enough for the freepers?
And apparently anyone to the left of NewsMax, Brietbart, or WND aren’t to be trusted now.
i wonder how they would react to a gop candidate who would sign a bill raising social security taxes, send his special envoy to the middle east to shake saddam hussein’s hand and sell him poison gas, retreat ignominiously after suffering a terrorist attack on a marine base, and never served in the military?
| 474 |
Lidane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:40:41pm |
re: #466 RadicalModerate
I can’t see Ron Paul making a serious run. RAND on the other hand - I could see an attempt to draft him onto the ticket.
Oh, that would be fun. Let’s have Rand Paul explain his whacked out budget and its effects on this country in a national election.
| 475 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:40:49pm |
Researchers Link Marijuana And Earlier Onset Of Psychosis
Can marijuana use lead to mental health problems popping up sooner?
The question weighs on the minds of parents and doctors. Now there’s more evidence, culled from more than 80 different studies, that marijuana can speed up development of serious psychotic illness.
Australian researchers found that marijuana users who developed psychosis were 2.7 years younger than nonusers who became psychotic. Other sorts of substance abuse sped up psychosis by 2 years, but alcohol alone showed no effect. The result were published online by the Archives of General Psychiatry.
What’s going on?
| 476 |
nissane Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:41:19pm |
seriously though, democrats where much harsher on Bush when he touted a democratic middle east.
Apart from the fact that there will always be some crazies, she had a lot of one liners from people that were undoubtably taken out of context and/or selectively chosen comments.
| 477 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:41:23pm |
re: #467 Jadespring
Okay I’m taking a poll. What should I have for dinner?
This bag of doritos or this can of chickpeas?
chickpeas, mix in a little italian salad dressing (oil and vinegar). Let sit for a while then eat.
| 478 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:43:19pm |
re: #477 ggt
chickpeas, mix in a little italian salad dressing (oil and vinegar). Let sit for a while then eat.
OR, leave out the vinegar, add a little garlic as well as the olive oil, and mash it all up.
Hummus.
You can then dip your doritos.
OR, I would just go for the chocolate ice cream.
| 479 |
justaminute Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:43:26pm |
My husband just talked to his brother in Iran. They are trying to block satellite service. Internet service is completely out. Even telephone service is spotty. In the papers and on TV the government announced that if you came out to protest you and your whole family will be arrested. Everyone is scared to even leave their house.
| 480 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:44:06pm |
re: #476 nissane
seriously though, democrats where much harsher on Bush when he touted a democratic middle east.
cite?
i think democrats were harsh on bush when he suggested invading another country that hadn’t attacked us
| 481 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:44:09pm |
re: #479 justaminute
My husband just talked to his brother in Iran. They are trying to block satellite service. Internet service is completely out. Even telephone service is spotty. In the papers and on TV the government announced that if you came out to protest you and your whole family will be arrested. Everyone is scared to even leave their house.
WTF?
| 483 |
Jadespring Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:46:15pm |
re: #481 ggt
WTF?
It’s because protests are planned (like Egypt) and the gov’t is looking at Egypt and saying “NO WAY” and doing everything they can to prevent it from happening.
Algeria is trying to do the same and sent over 30,000 police out to squash the protests that happened today.
| 484 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:46:21pm |
re: #479 justaminute
My husband just talked to his brother in Iran. They are trying to block satellite service. Internet service is completely out. Even telephone service is spotty. In the papers and on TV the government announced that if you came out to protest you and your whole family will be arrested. Everyone is scared to even leave their house.
OOH, {justaminute}
that does awful.
| 485 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:46:55pm |
re: #465 ggt
“How I Killed Pluto and Why It Had It Coming.”
poor Pluto …
Meh, I’m not Korean so what do I care. Donald Duck is much tastier as far as I’m concerned.
/
| 486 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:46:57pm |
re: #483 Jadespring
It’s because protests are planned (like Egypt) and the gov’t is looking at Egypt and saying “NO WAY” and doing everything they can to prevent it from happening.
Algeria is trying to do the same and sent over 30,000 police out to squash the protests that happened today.
thought so
| 488 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:47:52pm |
re: #465 ggt
“How I Killed Pluto and Why It Had It Coming.”
poor Pluto …
| 489 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:50:15pm |
re: #480 engineer dog
cite?
i think democrats were harsh on bush when he suggested invading another country that hadn’t attacked us
I also think there was much justified criticism of the wild shift from ‘nation-building is stupid’ to, “I’m going to bring democracy to the Middle East, and it won’t even cost a lot!”
| 490 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:50:18pm |
| 491 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:50:39pm |
re: #482 wrenchwench
“Welcome”, “hatchling”.
These terms to be withdrawn later, if it proves necessary?
| 492 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:50:54pm |
re: #490 reine.de.tout
The quotes indicate you’re wondering about things?
I have a new suspect re: my allen wrench…
| 493 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:51:03pm |
| 494 |
justaminute Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:51:13pm |
re: #481 ggt
The Green movement was planning a protest for Monday. They wanted everyone to go on their roofs Saturday and Sunday night like they did last time.
It’s one thing to work up the courage to go out on your own and protest but this threat to take your entire family is pure evil on the part of the government.
| 495 |
austin_blue Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:52:27pm |
re: #490 reine.de.tout
The quotes indicate you’re wondering about things?
Joined up in 8/08. First post.
| 496 |
RadicalModerate Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:53:53pm |
re: #483 Jadespring
It’s because protests are planned (like Egypt) and the gov’t is looking at Egypt and saying “NO WAY” and doing everything they can to prevent it from happening.
Algeria is trying to do the same and sent over 30,000 police out to squash the protests that happened today.
There were protests in both Yemen and Algeria today, that had their respective governments attempt to supress (in Yemen’s case - violently) protesters. Yemen is a tough call, becuase they have a strong Al Qaeda presence there, so a power vacuum there might not be the best thing to happen at the present time.
Iran is supposed to have a Egypt-inspired solidarity protest on Monday, which the government is threatening to come down hard against. Problem is, the Greens in Iran have had over a full year to reorganize, and create new communication lines.
| 497 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:56:34pm |
| 498 |
Jadespring Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:57:57pm |
re: #496 RadicalModerate
There were protests in both Yemen and Algeria today, that had their respective governments attempt to supress (in Yemen’s case - violently) protesters. Yemen is a tough call, becuase they have a strong Al Qaeda presence there, so a power vacuum there might not be the best thing to happen at the present time.
Yes Yemen is a country where I would be really concerned about a radical takeover. Not that it’s my call to make in any way or form. If the people there figure out and overthrow their regime like in Egypt then all the power to them as far as I’m concerned.
| 499 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 3:59:03pm |
re: #494 justaminute
The Green movement was planning a protest for Monday. They wanted everyone to go on their roofs Saturday and Sunday night like they did last time.
It’s one thing to work up the courage to go out on your own and protest but this threat to take your entire family is pure evil on the part of the government.
and yet some people think that if left to their own devices, the Iraqis could have deposed that cupcake, Saddam Hussein….the possibilities are endless, eh?
| 500 |
Jadespring Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:00:35pm |
re: #499 albusteve
and yet some people think that if left to their own devices, the Iraqis could have deposed that cupcake, Saddam Hussein…the possibilities are endless, eh?
Yes it’s bad. So you wanna invade Iran now to help the people out?
| 501 |
austin_blue Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:02:25pm |
re: #493 Killgore Trout
There was a study out a few months ago about that. Apparently the ratio of CBD and THC is an important factor. IIRC more CBD is more gooder. Not all weed is created equal.
Man, KT, that was a quick and informative response.
Soup for you!re: #497 albusteve
well according to the feds, if you toke a coil of rope, you are in the heroin/cocaine danger zone
The most important Gateway Drugs in America:
Nicotine, THC, and caffeine.
.5/
| 502 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:03:17pm |
re: #499 albusteve
and yet some people think that if left to their own devices, the Iraqis could have deposed that cupcake, Saddam Hussein…the possibilities are endless, eh?
I don’t think anyone thought that…except possible the CIA, who spent a small fortune experimenting with the idea.
| 503 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:03:52pm |
re: #495 austin_blue
Joined up in 8/08. First post.
Which prompts two thoughts.
1) How do they remember their password?
2) After two and a half years, I’d expect a bit more from a first post.
Now here’s a first post.
He flounced later. Oh, well.
| 504 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:04:53pm |
re: #442 SanFranciscoZionist
There are people obsessed with that catchphrase, and I’ve yet to get one of them to actually connect it to a real idea. OK. We are a Republic, this is true. (I must insist that we are also a democracy, we are just not a DIRECT democracy.) What does that MEAN to you?
I can’t get a real answer.
To the average cultie, it means that Republicans are more American than Democrats, because they have the word ‘republic’ in their name, while Democrats have ‘democrat’, and we’re a republic, not a democracy. Which is a very important point, if you happen to be a moron.
In more general terms, however, there is a school of ‘thought’ (and I use the term loosely) on the Right that ‘democracy’ actually means absolute mob rule, with Communist-style negation of property rights and ultimately resulting in anarchy. Whereas ‘republic’ means a Constitutional, representative government, of the People, by the People, and for the People, with One Nation, Under God, and other good, important words. Which completely misses the idea that this in fact describes a representative democracy, or, stated otherwise, a democratic republic.
In short, it basically means that when Democrats or liberals get elected, that is tyranny of the majority and fundamentally unAmerican, whereas when Republicans get elected, the people have spoken.
| 505 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:05:15pm |
re: #497 albusteve
well according to the feds, if you toke a coil of rope, you are in the heroin/cocaine danger zone
Yeah, that’s about right. I went out and explored Portland’s legal pot scene earlier this week. Pretty interesting but it’s still illegal to the Feds and it seems kinda silly to pay the state of Oregon to put your name on a government computer so you can use “legal” pot. The feds will still throw you in jail.
| 506 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:07:25pm |
re: #500 Jadespring
Yes it’s bad. So you wanna invade Iran now to help the people out?
no, just bomb the shit out of their nuke infrastructure….show the Iranian people their mullahs are not so tough after all…then maybe pick off a few Republican Guard units that flock to the rescue
| 507 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:09:06pm |
re: #492 wrenchwench
I have a new suspect re: my allen wrench…
Need to put a leash on those sorts of things.
| 508 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:09:30pm |
re: #506 albusteve
Because when you bomb people, they just start fucking loving you. It’s like magnets.
| 509 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:09:51pm |
| 510 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:11:06pm |
re: #509 wrenchwench
I just found it…in my pocket…
hahaha.
That’s what I said … a leash. Then you’da known where it was right away.
| 511 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:11:09pm |
re: #505 Killgore Trout
Yeah, that’s about right. I went out and explored Portland’s legal pot scene earlier this week. Pretty interesting but it’s still illegal to the Feds and it seems kinda silly to pay the state of Oregon to put your name on a government computer so you can use “legal” pot. The feds will still throw you in jail.
just another scrap over who gets the tax revenue….they won’t legalize it on principle, it’s all about bailing out failing state budgets….kinda makes the whole moral argument go up in smoke….
BASTIDS!
| 512 |
austin_blue Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:11:37pm |
re: #506 albusteve
no, just bomb the shit out of their nuke infrastructure…show the Iranian people their mullahs are not so tough after all…then maybe pick off a few Republican Guard units that flock to the rescue
Quickly followed by the closing of the Strait of Hormuz and $400/bbl oil.
Although it’s a nice fantasy. It really is. But direct action has consequences.
At some point, it may come to that, but now isn’t that point.
| 513 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:12:16pm |
re: #508 Obdicut
Because when you bomb people, they just start fucking loving you. It’s like magnets.
the RG are not people…who told you that?
| 514 |
Jadespring Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:12:22pm |
re: #506 albusteve
no, just bomb the shit out of their nuke infrastructure…show the Iranian people their mullahs are not so tough after all…then maybe pick off a few Republican Guard units that flock to the rescue
Well good luck with that.
| 515 |
jordash1212 Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:13:28pm |
Didn’t Krauthammer make a joke a few days ago that a couple years ago the only people who thought democracy in the Middle East was possible were George W. Bush and some neocons? Now it turns out they were quite right.
Yes, the right has come a long way — and just think at how so many commentators dismissed Bush’s actions in the Middle East as heavy-handed and lacking nuance. Who could have thought someone like Beck would come along and claim the emergence of the caliphate all over again.
| 516 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:13:58pm |
re: #512 austin_blue
Quickly followed by the closing of the Strait of Hormuz and $400/bbl oil.
Although it’s a nice fantasy. It really is. But direct action has consequences.
At some point, it may come to that, but now isn’t that point.
it would be futile to hold my half jest up for scrutiny…but hey, we can keep the straits open….we have a bad ass Navy
| 517 |
Jadespring Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:14:36pm |
I made some hummus. Didn’t take that long. I forgot I had a hand mixer.
I used a bit of peanut butter since I didn’t have any sesame paste. Wasn’t sure about that but it tastes good. :)
Thanks for the suggestions all.
**dunks a dorito***
| 518 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:15:55pm |
re: #516 albusteve
it would be futile to hold my half jest up for scrutiny…but hey, we can keep the straits open…we have a bad ass Navy
It won’t be the Iranian navy that closes the Straits—it will be US and British insurance companies.
| 519 |
austin_blue Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:16:09pm |
re: #515 jordash1212
Didn’t Krauthammer make a joke a few days ago that a couple years ago the only people who thought democracy in the Middle East was possible were George W. Bush and some neocons? Now it turns out they were quite right.
Yes, the right has come a long way — and just think at how so many commentators dismissed Bush’s actions in the Middle East as heavy-handed and lacking nuance. Who could have thought someone like Beck would come along and claim the emergence of the caliphate all over again.
The Turks have believed in it for decades. So have the israelis. Cabbageslugger is a loon.
| 520 |
justaminute Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:16:23pm |
re: #499 albusteve
and yet some people think that if left to their own devices, the Iraqis could have deposed that cupcake, Saddam Hussein…the possibilities are endless, eh?
I hope that the government showing exactly how oppressive they are is going to work against them. The Shah was a pretty ruthless character too. They eventually overcame him. In Iraq the people were a mix of tribes and were never united. Remember the boundaries of Iraq were drawn for them. They were never united like the people of Iran. American help has never befitted the Iranian people before. To the people of Iran they separate the American people from the government. They don’t consider our government to be the “good guys.”
| 521 |
austin_blue Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:16:39pm |
re: #519 austin_blue
The Turks have believed in it for decades. So have the israelis. Cabbageslugger is a loon.
Israelis.
pimf
| 522 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:18:43pm |
re: #518 Decatur Deb
It won’t be the Iranian navy that closes the Straits—it will be US and British insurance companies.
then bomb them too…problem solved
speaking of Joe Walsh
| 523 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:21:29pm |
re: #517 Jadespring
I made some hummus. Didn’t take that long. I forgot I had a hand mixer.
I used a bit of peanut butter since I didn’t have any sesame paste. Wasn’t sure about that but it tastes good. :)
Thanks for the suggestions all.
**dunks a dorito***
I’ve also used ground up Fenugreek instead of sesame paste. very tasty.
| 524 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:25:08pm |
re: #522 albusteve
then bomb them too…problem solved
speaking of Joe Walsh[Video]
I’m glad Ravel’s Boléro has been restored to it’s original glory…… my vinyl copy has it edited out.
On the initial pressings of James Gang Rides Again, a 1:25 electric rendition of Ravel’s “Boléro” is interpolated into the song “The Bomber.” However, Ravel’s estate (which still owns copyright on the work) objected, and threatened suit against both the James Gang and ABC Records for its unauthorized use.[1] As a result, the track was edited, and the “Boléro” section was removed on subsequent pressings of the album until the late 1970s. The edited song’s running time on such pressings is 5:39. CD re-issues of Rides Again contain the full version of “The Bomber,” with the “Boléro” section restored.
| 525 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:31:45pm |
re: #499 albusteve
and yet some people think that if left to their own devices, the Iraqis could have deposed that cupcake, Saddam Hussein…the possibilities are endless, eh?
so iraqis are a bunch of wimps?
| 526 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:44:46pm |
re: #524 Mr Pancakes
I’m glad Ravel’s Boléro has been restored to it’s original glory… my vinyl copy has it edited out.
On the initial pressings of James Gang Rides Again, a 1:25 electric rendition of Ravel’s “Boléro” is interpolated into the song “The Bomber.” However, Ravel’s estate (which still owns copyright on the work) objected, and threatened suit against both the James Gang and ABC Records for its unauthorized use.[1] As a result, the track was edited, and the “Boléro” section was removed on subsequent pressings of the album until the late 1970s. The edited song’s running time on such pressings is 5:39. CD re-issues of Rides Again contain the full version of “The Bomber,” with the “Boléro” section restored.
I never knew that, the Bolero was soul of the song to begin with….my copy was hot off the press at the time and yes, it was as good or better performed live, James Gang was one of my favorites and they could really light it up…thanks for that factoid
| 527 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:45:39pm |
re: #525 engineer dog
so iraqis are a bunch of wimps?
you’d have to ask others, the people that vehemently opposed the invasion
| 528 |
engineer cat Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:47:30pm |
re: #527 albusteve
you’d have to ask others, the people that vehemently opposed the invasion
when some other country comes to save us from the liberal fascist muslim socialist dictatorship, will you greet them as liberators?
| 529 |
calochortus Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:51:29pm |
re: #516 albusteve
it would be futile to hold my half jest up for scrutiny…but hey, we can keep the straits open…we have a bad ass Navy
And our bad ass Navy will run quick salvage operations after someone sinks a ship in the straights and closes them that way? What could it take-a few minutes?//
| 530 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:52:00pm |
re: #528 engineer dog
when some other country comes to save us from the liberal fascist muslim socialist dictatorship, will you greet them as liberators?
why are you asking me?….I’m not the “some people”
| 531 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:54:27pm |
New Egyptian twitter hashtag #thingsivelearned
yasseralaa Yasser Alaa
by Sandmonkey
@Sandmonkey how to fight a guy over a camel #thingsIvelearned
| 532 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 4:56:00pm |
re: #529 calochortus
And our bad ass Navy will run quick salvage operations after someone sinks a ship in the straights and closes them that way? What could it take-a few minutes?//
don’t be ridiculous…it’d take all day at least
| 534 |
Jadespring Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:02:43pm |
re: #531 Stanley Sea
New Egyptian twitter hashtag #thingsivelearned
yasseralaa Yasser Alaa
by Sandmonkey@Sandmonkey how to fight a guy over a camel #thingsIvelearned
I’m glad I’m not the only one who is enjoying all the humor. These folks are hysterical.
| 535 |
Gus Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:08:10pm |
re: #508 Obdicut
Because when you bomb people, they just start fucking loving you. It’s like magnets.
And remember! All you have to do is call up one bombing run and the problem’s solved! Just like in a John Wayne movie.
Seriously though. This whole bombing fetish is so 2003. No one is going to bomb anybody until all peaceful options are extinguished.
I can see a time in the future when the USA becomes so belligerent acting unilaterally that one day it will face international sanctions itself. This of course would happen if one of those far right wingnuts ever became president.
| 536 |
sagehen Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:14:28pm |
re: #506 albusteve
no, just bomb the shit out of their nuke infrastructure…show the Iranian people their mullahs are not so tough after all…then maybe pick off a few Republican Guard units that flock to the rescue
You mean their dispersed, underground, located beneath major population centers, nuke infrastructure? That’s what you want to bomb?
| 537 |
TedStriker Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:15:50pm |
re: #508 Obdicut
Because when you bomb people, they just start fucking loving you. It’s like magnets.
How do fucking magnets works?
///
| 538 |
albusteve Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:19:53pm |
re: #536 sagehen
You mean their dispersed, underground, located beneath major population centers, nuke infrastructure? That’s what you want to bomb?
I think you missed the context of the post
| 539 |
Skeetghazi Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:21:24pm |
re: #534 Jadespring
I’m glad I’m not the only one who is enjoying all the humor. These folks are hysterical.
I am loving it. Totally.
| 540 |
sagehen Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:28:04pm |
On CNN right now, they’re showing bunches of people — ordinary street clothes, looks like a bunch of volunteers, with brooms and mops and buckets, cleaning up Tahrir Square. I’m getting misty-eyed.
| 541 |
prairiefire Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:35:10pm |
re: #540 sagehen
On CNN right now, they’re showing bunches of people — ordinary street clothes, looks like a bunch of volunteers, with brooms and mops and buckets, cleaning up Tahrir Square. I’m getting misty-eyed.
I love every minute of it. I’m leaving the cynicism alone as far as Egypt goes until proven otherwise.
| 542 |
calochortus Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:35:19pm |
re: #540 sagehen
I know, I just saw a piece on NBC with a guy putting paving stones back down in the street. Who doesn’t love protesters who clean up after themselves.
| 543 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:42:18pm |
re: #542 calochortus
I know, I just saw a piece on NBC with a guy putting paving stones back down in the street. Who doesn’t love protesters who clean up after themselves.
That’s sacred turf now. With any luck the kids will be worse than Woodstock veterans in a few decades.
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