Young Americans for Freedom Give Ron Paul the Boot

The Paulian schism widens
Politics • Views: 37,265

See — this is why conservatives can’t have nice things.

“It’s a sad day in American history when a one-time conservative/libertarian stalwart has fallen more out of touch with America’s needs for national security then our current socialist presidential regime,” said the group’s national director Jordan Marks.

The dispute between Paul and the group seems to stem from Paul’s anti-war activities and the prominence of his supporters at conservative events like CPAC.

“Rep. Paul is clearly off his meds and must be purged from public office. YAF is starting the process by removing him from our national advisory board. Good riddance and he won’t be missed,” added Marks.

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684 comments
1 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:04:43pm

That’s a shocker.

2 joe g.  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:06:07pm
Rep. Paul is clearly off his meds and must be purged

Hang on, I thought Democrats were the ideological heirs to Stalin!

3 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:10:09pm

There’s more to the story that they aren’t talking about…

“It’s a sad day in American history when a one-time conservative/libertarian stalwart has fallen more out of touch with America’s needs for national security then our current socialist presidential regime,” said the group’s national director Jordan Marks.


Ron Paul is no more or less crazy than he’s ever been.I wonder what the real reason is.

4 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:11:31pm

re: #3 Killgore Trout

There’s more to the story that they aren’t talking about…

Ron Paul is no more or less crazy than he’s ever been.I wonder what the real reason is.

I’ll bet they’re very pissed about the Paulian heckling of Rumsfeld and Cheney. And then the Crazy Uncle’s defiant isolationist CPAC speech was the last straw.

5 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:12:10pm

re: #3 Killgore Trout

There’s more to the story that they aren’t talking about…


Ron Paul is no more or less crazy than he’s ever been.I wonder what the real reason is.

More people are listening and paying attention to him now then before. It as okay when he just hung out in his own corner.

6 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:14:38pm

I wonder how “Young” these people are…. sorry just curious given that the GOP’s “Young Guns” group included a guy in his 50’s….

On second thought I wonder how “for freedom” they are also….

7 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:15:32pm

re: #3 Killgore Trout

There’s more to the story that they aren’t talking about…


Ron Paul is no more or less crazy than he’s ever been.I wonder what the real reason is.

I think it’s the budget proposals, etc. Now that the Republicans are expected to actually propose things and get things done, Paul’s brand of insanity— which is shared by his son, and possibly other incoming Tea Party types— Paul has much more of a chance to seriously embarrass the GOP by making them defend spending.

8 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:15:36pm

re: #4 Charles

Ah, I forgot about the heckling.

9 122 Year Old Obama  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:15:39pm

re: #6 jamesfirecat

For me and not for thee.

10 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:16:07pm

re: #5 Jadespring

More people are listening and paying attention to him now then before. It as okay when he just hung out in his own corner.



Old man yells at cloud federal reserve….

11 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:17:53pm

Hard to say who’s the bigger douche. Right now I’m leaning towards YAF. Although, it could be a mutual.

12 talking point detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:19:36pm

Maybe because his fans booed Cheney?

Meanwhile, he won the straw poll at CPAC. Looks like the Republicans are trying to do as much infighting as Democrats?

13 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:20:01pm

I don’t think the “Federal Reserve” tag is needed. I doubt any of these teenagers understand Ron Paul’s insane monetary policy or its historically disastrous effects.

Younglings love Ron Paul because he’ll let them smoke dope and he’ll free them from global responsibility.

14 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:21:02pm

I would pick Dick Cheney over Ron Paul in a heartbeat. That man should never be allowed near the Oval Office, much less a committee in the House of Representatives.

15 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:21:17pm

re: #11 Gus 802

Hard to say who’s the bigger douche. Right now I’m leaning towards YAF. Although, it could be a mutual.

Yeah, it’s hard to take them seriously when they complain about the imminent danger from “our current socialist presidential regime”. They should be run out of conservative politics themselves.

16 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:21:41pm

re: #6 jamesfirecat

I wonder how “Young” these people are… sorry just curious given that the GOP’s “Young Guns” group included a guy in his 50’s…

On second thought I wonder how “for freedom” they are also…

Jordan Marks looks to be mid to later thirties to me.

[Link: washingtonexaminer.com…]

17 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:21:53pm

The comments at Politico are hilarious. There’s already at least one calling the YAF a bunch of liberal plants. Heh.

18 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:22:53pm

re: #17 Lidane

The comments at Politico are hilarious. There’s already at least one calling the YAF a bunch of liberal plants. Heh.

Oh man that is too funny. This is going to be so fun to watch as it develops.

19 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:23:08pm

I don’t know who is more insane- YAF or Ron Paul.

20 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:24:47pm

Still, I don’t believe Ron Paul could ever win the Republican nomination or the Presidency. Groups like Young Americans for Freedom bus in loads of naive college students to vote for the GOP’s Crazy Uncle. And remember, Ron Paul is still booed and shouted down by chants of “U.S.A” at every other mainstream Republican event.

21 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:25:19pm

Just re-listened to this - I really recommend it. John Oliver just nails the insanity of the Tea Party.

[Link: www.npr.org…]

22 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:25:36pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

Yeah, it’s hard to take them seriously when they complain about the imminent danger from “our current socialist presidential regime”. They should be run out of conservative politics themselves.

And the Michigan YAF; their views and activities regarding immigration; Tom Tancredo; Chris Simcox; etc. They’re a far right youth group IMO.

Of course none of them will be run out of conservative politics. Never have and never will.

23 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:26:16pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

Yeah, it’s hard to take them seriously when they complain about the imminent danger from “our current socialist presidential regime”. They should be run out of conservative politics themselves.

from the comments section, it sounds like the YAF has an identity problem and separating themselves from Paul allows them to be somebody with a almost unique agenda…a fear of becoming even more irrelevant than they already are….tough guys that don’t need no stinkin Ron Paul to define who they are

24 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:26:46pm

re: #21 Talking Point Detective

Just re-listened to this - I really recommend it. John Oliver just nails the insanity of the Tea Party.

[Link: www.npr.org…]

Thanks, I really enjoy John Oliver. He’s a really funny dude.

25 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:26:50pm

re: #18 HappyWarrior

Oh man that is too funny. This is going to be so fun to watch as it develops.

This one is my favorite so far:

Young Americans for Freedom are not “conservative.” When I was growing up in Texas conservative Republican presidents never took us to war. Democrats were the war party. World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam were under Democratic presidents. In fact part of Republican campaigns was that if we voted for a Democrat in the White House we’d wind up in a war. Eisenhower did put some advisers in Vietnam, but it was a Democrat president, Lyndon Johnson, who escalated that conflict. Eisenhower also ran on a campaign plank to make peace in Korea, “I will go to Korea. Eisenhower also warned Americans about the “military-industrial complex.”

He’s already getting pushback for it, too. This is great.

26 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:26:57pm

re: #23 albusteve

from the comments section, it sounds like the YAF has an identity problem and separating themselves from Paul allows them to be somebody with a almost unique agenda…a fear of becoming even more irrelevant than they already are…tough guys that don’t need no stinkin Ron Paul to define who they are

Maybe he just reached retirement age.

27 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:28:21pm

re: #14 Max D. Reinhardt

I would pick Dick Cheney over Ron Paul in a heartbeat. That man should never be allowed near the Oval Office, much less a committee in the House of Representatives.

Lets hope the only time there is a choice to be made between Cheney and Paul is when the toilet needs to be cleaned.

28 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:28:57pm

Never trust a Young Republican over 75.

29 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:29:00pm

re: #12 talking point detective

Maybe because his fans booed Cheney?

Meanwhile, he won the straw poll at CPAC. Looks like the Republicans are trying to do as much infighting as Democrats?

Bah, they can try, but we’ve got years more experience at this kind of thing than they do!

30 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:29:04pm

re: #16 Jadespring

Jordan Marks looks to be mid to later thirties to me.

[Link: washingtonexaminer.com…]

Could be wrong though. If he went straight out of high school to college then it looks like around 30 or under 30.

And now I’m wondering why in the heck I’m looking this up….

Yeesh the internet is evil.

31 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:30:59pm

re: #14 Max D. Reinhardt

I would pick Dick Cheney over Ron Paul in a heartbeat. That man should never be allowed near the Oval Office, much less a committee in the House of Representatives.

Oh I would never. Either are horrible.

32 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:31:11pm

re: #21 Talking Point Detective

Just re-listened to this - I really recommend it. John Oliver just nails the insanity of the Tea Party.

[Link: www.npr.org…]

I can’t wait for “John” with an H to get out from under “Jon” without an H’s shadow and get his own full show on Comedy Central “The John Oliver Repourt” as it were….

33 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:31:33pm

re: #25 Lidane

This one is my favorite so far:

He’s already getting pushback for it, too. This is great.

I find it funny he quotes Eisenhower since Eisenhower is the one whose candiancy is why the GOP became less isolationist. Paul and friends are a throwback to Ike’s rival, Robert A. Taft. Paul himself opnely admires “Mr. Republican” who as I said yesterday famously opposed the Nuremberg Trials.

34 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:32:04pm

re: #14 Max D. Reinhardt

I would pick Dick Cheney over Ron Paul in a heartbeat.

That’s the ultimate Douche vs. Turd Sandwich choice. Both are awful.

35 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:32:28pm

re: #23 albusteve

An update on our pot talk from the last thread….

Is the DEA legalizing THC?

In other words, THC in plant form or as an extract, will still be illegal. What won’t be illegal is if a pharmaceutical company buys THC from a government-licensed provider, puts it in a pill, receives the DEA’s stamp of approval, and sells it a price that will likely be far higher than the price of marijuana.
36 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:32:53pm

Gators beat Tennessee! YEAH

37 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:32:54pm

OT, and apropos of nothing, I am using my iPad to surf LGF and to type out comments.

It isnt as easy as with the notebook.

To get back on topic, Paul in the second by a nose.

38 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:34:17pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

An update on our pot talk from the last thread…

Is the DEA legalizing THC?

Wow… it’s like when they said you couldn’t own a tommy gun unless you had the official government seal on it… then neglected to create any such seals….

39 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:34:38pm

re: #25 Lidane

This one is my favorite so far:

He’s already getting pushback for it, too. This is great.

This is mine. You think he’s trying make some POINTS?

What is sad is these “Young Ass Fools”. Evidently, they are dumbed down like a large number of American Idol watching “idiots”.If they didn’t have their “T V (IDIOT BOXES) THEY WOULD BE TOTALLY “LOST”.When I read that DR RON PAUL is being characterized as “OUT OF TOUCH”… I wonder “how old are these “IDIOTS”? DR RON PAUL has stayed TOTALLY convicted to FOLLOW that document… you know the one, “THE SUPREME LAW OF THIS LAND…. THE CONSTITUTION”! IT IS idiots or “TRAITORS” that are attempting to destroy MY NATION! It was written The United States of America could ONLY BE DESTROYED…” FROM WITHIN”. THIS IS CORRUPTED DEVIATE TRAITORS TO MY NATION AND THEY “SHOULD BE… HANGED!
40 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:35:25pm

re: #17 Lidane

The comments at Politico are hilarious. There’s already at least one calling the YAF a bunch of liberal plants. Heh.

*grabs popcorn*

41 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:35:40pm

re: #34 Lidane

That’s the ultimate Douche vs. Turd Sandwich choice. Both are awful.

Eww. I updinged you anyway. And accidentally hearted this comment.

42 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:36:03pm

re: #39 Jadespring

This is mine. You think he’s trying make some POINTS?

I read that in Joad Crestbuckler from the Onion’s voice :). Guy is an idiot though. YAF isn’t some new youth conservative organization. They were founded in the Kennedy years I’d want to say.

43 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:36:29pm

re: #41 b_sharp

Eww. I updinged you anyway. And accidentally hearted this comment.

It’s a South Park reference. They were talking about Bush vs. Kerry, IIRC.

44 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:36:35pm

re: #24 HappyWarrior

Thanks, I really enjoy John Oliver. He’s a really funny dude.

It’s mostly interview-like - but there are definitely LOL sections, particularly when he talks about he batshit crazy people he runs into at Tea Party events.

Also, maybe you saw this - I linked this earlier - but it’s hilarious so it’s worth a re-link.


John Oliver celebrates a new high holiday with the people of Texas after a Jewish Republican is re-elected.

45 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:36:43pm

Speaking of crazy….
Pam Geller: CPAC Infiltrated By ‘Muslim Brotherhood Activist

46 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:37:43pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

An update on our pot talk from the last thread…

Is the DEA legalizing THC?

wow…so the FDA makes a grab for legalized THC by coming through the back door…good grief how silly can they get? nobody wants to smoke a gelatin pill in their bong….this is just too weird

47 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:37:49pm

re: #28 Decatur Deb

Never trust a Young Republican over 75.

Now I know what that song, “Forever young”, was about.

48 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:37:59pm

re: #39 Jadespring

This is mine. You think he’s trying make some POINTS?

Gotta LOVE the random ALL CAPS tossed in for no REASON in the middle of a sentence JUST to sound FORCEFUL.

Heh.

49 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:38:04pm

re: #31 Stanley Sea

Cheney is not as bad as everyone thinks. He’s not a creationist, he supports a state’s right to adopt same-sex marriage, he’s at least willing to make a few exemptions for when abortion is okay (rape, incest, etc; hey, it’s better than the rest of the modern GOP), and I actually agree with his stances on foreign policy and his global outlook.

50 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:38:05pm

Oh oh, they wrote “then” instead of “than.”

Plus, they said “purge.”

I think I’ll keep totally away.

51 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:38:09pm

re: #44 Talking Point Detective

It’s mostly interview-like - but there are definitely LOL sections, particularly when he talks about he batshit crazy people he runs into at Tea Party events.

Also, maybe you saw this - I linked this earlier - but it’s hilarious so it’s worth a re-link.

John Oliver celebrates a new high holiday with the people of Texas after a Jewish Republican is re-elected.

Though they thought he only had enough votes for one district, he carried eight….

52 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:38:47pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Hmmm…looks like only two dozen folks showed up. The room isn’t even half full.

53 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:38:54pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Speaking of crazy…
Pam Geller: CPAC Infiltrated By ‘Muslim Brotherhood Activist

[Video]

I think I’m going to be ill.

54 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:39:02pm

re: #48 Lidane

Gotta LOVE the random ALL CAPS tossed in for no REASON in the middle of a sentence JUST to sound FORCEFUL.

Heh.

I am ANGRY CONSERVATIVE, ARE LEADERS HAVE SOLU US OUT 2 ISLAM

55 RadicalModerate  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:40:00pm

re: #22 Gus 802

And the Michigan YAF; their views and activities regarding immigration; Tom Tancredo; Chris Simcox; etc. They’re a far right youth group IMO.

Of course none of them will be run out of conservative politics. Never have and never will.

Yeah, I was trying to remember where I recently heard about the YAF. They were the ones behind the “catch an illegal immigrant day” during last years’ immigration debates. I think they also were the ones who raised the big stink at CPAC last year regarding GOProud’s being invited, leading to all the Christian Reconstructionist groups pulling out.

56 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:40:29pm

re: #42 HappyWarrior

I read that in Joad Crestbuckler from the Onion’s voice :). Guy is an idiot though. YAF isn’t some new youth conservative organization. They were founded in the Kennedy years I’d want to say.

1960 per their website (which is decorated with images of old dead Young Americans.)

57 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:40:54pm

re: #46 albusteve

wow…so the FDA makes a grab for legalized THC by coming through the back door…good grief how silly can they get? nobody wants to smoke a gelatin pill in their bong…this is just too weird

Well, it fits in nicely with the point you made earlier. They aren’t going to legalize it for people to smoke, enjoy and grow themselves but if there’s money to be made by a large company then that’s a different story.

58 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:40:55pm

YAF my first semester here at GMU had as a guest speaker, Tom Tancredo.

59 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:41:06pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Speaking of crazy…
Pam Geller: CPAC Infiltrated By ‘Muslim Brotherhood Activist

[Video]

Isn’t there a point where your paranoia gives way to self-parody? She can’t possibly be serious. Can she?

60 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:41:15pm

re: #47 Sergey Romanov

Now I know what that song, “Forever young”, was about.

Dylan or Rod Stewart?

61 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:41:31pm

re: #58 HappyWarrior

YAF my first semester here at GMU had as a guest speaker, Tom Tancredo.

Isn’t that school filled with Paulian Austrian economists?

62 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:41:39pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Speaking of crazy…
Pam Geller: CPAC Infiltrated By ‘Muslim Brotherhood Activist

[Video]

Is there ANYTHING, ANYWHERE, that hasn’t been infiltrated by the Muslim Brotherhood?

I feel so much safer knowing that she’s on the watch.

63 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:41:41pm

re: #38 jamesfirecat

Wow… it’s like when they said you couldn’t own a tommy gun unless you had the official government seal on it… then neglected to create any such seals…

the feds had no clue what to do with the Thompson…at the time it was the highest degree of firepower known and they wanted it all for themselves…they never ran out of bizarre ideas for controlling something the public wants

64 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:42:19pm

re: #61 Max D. Reinhardt

Isn’t that school filled with Paulian Austrian economists?

Yep, certainly is. History major/English minor so my contact with em is limited.

65 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:43:21pm

re: #43 Lidane

It’s a South Park reference. They were talking about Bush vs. Kerry, IIRC.

Sorry, I dont do South Park. Homer Simpson is more my style.

66 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:43:32pm

re: #59 Lidane

Isn’t there a point where your paranoia gives way to self-parody? She can’t possibly be serious. Can she?

I find it really hard to get my head around someone thinking that. I just watched though. She is serious and other people clapped when she said it which makes it even worse.

67 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:43:38pm

re: #57 Killgore Trout

Well, it fits in nicely with the point you made earlier. They aren’t going to legalize it for people to smoke, enjoy and grow themselves but if there’s money to be made by a large company then that’s a different story.

Marijuana is currently considered MORE ILLEGAL than Cocaine.

Because Marijuana is a schedule I drug, meaning it has “no medical applications” as far as the federal government is concerned.

If you can say that with a straight face, then you too are an experienced enough at shoveling bullshit that you are qualified to either be a politician or a farm hand….

68 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:44:09pm

re: #64 HappyWarrior

Yep, certainly is. History major/English minor so my contact with em is limited.

Still, I’d recommend reading Rothbard and Von Mises. Very interesting stuff. I’m more of a Chicago School guy, though.

How do you like being a history major? Are you planning on teaching?

69 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:44:13pm

re: #60 Decatur Deb

Dylan or Rod Stewart?

70 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:44:16pm

re: #59 Lidane

Isn’t there a point where your paranoia gives way to self-parody? She can’t possibly be serious. Can she?

I think she really believes that CPAC has been paid off by the Muslim Brotherhood. She’s not a very smart person.

71 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:44:54pm

re: #39 Jadespring

This is mine. You think he’s trying make some POINTS?

The caps…they burn my eyyyyeeeees!!!

72 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:45:09pm

I think Paul’s whole appeal to young people and I say this as a 23 year old is that he talks alot about “freedom” and his opposition to criminalized drugs is a nice part. Plus, the foreign policy ideology appeals to a lot of people. Never did with me even when I was more to the left since I subscribed and still do to a more Wilsonian mindset than Taftian one.

73 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:45:17pm

re: #51 jamesfirecat

Though they thought he only had enough votes for one district, he carried eight…

Classic. And the rabbi was one of the best John Oliver interviews I’ve ever seen. Completely deadpan.

74 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:46:02pm

re: #62 Talking Point Detective

Is there ANYTHING, ANYWHERE, that hasn’t been infiltrated by the Muslim Brotherhood?

Nope. That’s why you need to buy the handy-dandy Glenn Beck Caliphate Survival Kit for your underground bunker, which should be stored with non-hybrid seeds, non-halal foods, guns and ammo, and gold.

Oh, and make sure that everyone in your bunker only speaks English and is a Christian. Can’t take any chances with those brown folks, after all. They’re all out to get you, either by having anchor babies and breeding White America out of existence, or they’re in thrall to the Muslim Brotherhood and will force you to convert to Islam.

/wingnut

75 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:46:14pm

re: #68 Max D. Reinhardt

Still, I’d recommend reading Rothbard and Von Mises. Very interesting stuff. I’m more of a Chicago School guy, though.

How do you like being a history major? Are you planning on teaching?

I enjoy it. Finishing up in the fall. Nah, I want to go in to the state department ideally and be an adviser on European issues. I’ve been building up my knowledge of European history over the years.

76 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:46:21pm

Crazy Pam clarifies…..

Pamela Geller at CPAC

77 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:47:26pm

re: #58 HappyWarrior

YAF my first semester here at GMU had as a guest speaker, Tom Tancredo.

I thought I heard of these guys, it was their banquet for Reagan’s 100th that Sister Sarah spoke at.

78 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:47:28pm

re: #57 Killgore Trout

Well, it fits in nicely with the point you made earlier. They aren’t going to legalize it for people to smoke, enjoy and grow themselves but if there’s money to be made by a large company then that’s a different story.

Zen And The Art Of Revenue

79 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:48:17pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

I think she really believes that CPAC has been paid off by the Muslim Brotherhood. She’s not a very smart person.

She lost her marbles a long time ago. Other than a few talking points Ron Paul is still a right winger. She obviously didn’t listen to the speakers yesterday since she was busy applying 55 gallons of eyeliner or something. CPAC remain a “right wing fest”. She’s probably just angry that she didn’t get a seat in the main venues and that CPAC wasn’t a 100 percent “anti-Jihadist” conference. Her whole world revolves around her crazed view of Islam.

80 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:48:33pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

I think she really believes that CPAC has been paid off by the Muslim Brotherhood. She’s not a very smart person.

On the other hand. If the attendance is 12,000 like she says and she only got that many people to come and listen to her then that’s at least a good thing. I’m also assuming that some of the few people in that room are there to see, like lookeloos and not necessarily believers. Heck if I came across somewhere she was speaking and it was free I’d probably lookeloo too.

81 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:49:05pm

re: #75 HappyWarrior

I enjoy it. Finishing up in the fall. Nah, I want to go in to the state department ideally and be an adviser on European issues. I’ve been building up my knowledge of European history over the years.

Sounds like a great career. Do you know any European languages?

82 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:49:24pm

re: #4 Charles

I’ll bet they’re very pissed about the Paulian heckling of Rumsfeld and Cheney. And then the Crazy Uncle’s defiant isolationist CPAC speech was the last straw.


They’re saying it’s the isolationism.

[…]

“Who would have ever thought that we would see the day when YAF was more aligned with the Obama administration than a formerly conservative Republican congressman? Rep. Paul’s refusal to support our nation’s military and national security interests border on treason, aside from his failure to uphold his oath to the United States Constitution and defend our country and citizens against all enemies, foreign and domestic,” Marks continued.

“Rep. Paul has strayed to the left of Obama and allied himself with the radical anti-war left by laying the blame on America for the unprovoked attacks of Sept. 11th. Additionally, Rep. Paul has not condemned the 9/11 “Truther” conspiracy theorists that support him, and he has repeatedly insisted, that the United States not bring justice to those who have murdered thousands of our civilians and soldiers at home and abroad. This is simply unacceptable. Clearly Rep. Paul cares more about a doomed presidential run than he does our country,” Marks added.

YAF National Chairman Michael Jones issued the following statement on this issue:

“The United States is in a time of economic crisis, but this is no excuse to abandon the principles that have built this great country and spread its ideals to the darkest recesses of the planet. The United States is the world’s leader—a beacon of light for the wretched and the oppressed. God has blessed the United States with liberty and the strength and heart to spread that liberty to all of his children. Rep. Paul has abandoned this mission, abandoned the United States’ citizens, and abandoned the citizens of the world in their quest for their God-given natural rights.”

YAF’s founding document, The Sharon Statement, clearly states: “American foreign policy must be judged by this criterion: does it serve the just interests of the United States?”

“History has shown that periods of freedom are rare, and can exist only when free citizens concertedly defend their rights against all enemies.”

“Freedom and prosperity cannot peacefully exist alongside radical Islam. It is unfortunate that Ron Paul—a member of the U.S. Congress— does not understand this. Surely, our enemies do.”

They must be turning neo-con.

83 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:49:30pm

re: #74 Lidane

Nope. That’s why you need to buy the handy-dandy Glenn Beck Caliphate Survival Kit for your underground bunker, which should be stored with non-hybrid seeds, non-halal foods, guns and ammo, and gold.

Oh, and make sure that everyone in your bunker only speaks English and is a Christian. Can’t take any chances with those brown folks, after all. They’re all out to get you, either by having anchor babies and breeding White America out of existence, or they’re in thrall to the Muslim Brotherhood and will force you to convert to Islam.

/wingnut

Wait. Non-halal? Oh, shit, I’m fucked.

Anyone interested in two cows-worth of halal meat?

84 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:49:53pm

re: #62 Talking Point Detective

Is there ANYTHING, ANYWHERE, that hasn’t been infiltrated by the Muslim Brotherhood?

I feel so much safer knowing that she’s on the watch.

I think the Swedish national beach volleyball team is still OK. I’ll go check.

85 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:50:00pm

There’s Muslim Brotherhoodists in the closet, they’re starving back in China so take a good look at what you got, oh nobody told me there’d be days like these. Strange days indeed. Most peculiar mama.

86 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:50:10pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam clarifies…

Pamela Geller at CPAC

[Video]

See. Just like I said. The twit(s) wanted CPAC to be an anit-Islam conference. Oops, anti-Jihadist conference. They should stay in Long Island.

87 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:50:27pm

re: #81 Max D. Reinhardt

Sounds like a great career. Do you know any European languages?

Taking Spanish right now actually.Not really good at languages overall unfortunately.

88 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:50:50pm

re: #81 Max D. Reinhardt

Sounds like a great career. Do you know any European languages?

Okay. I’m a history major at UMW and plan on applying to W&M’s School of Education. I want to be a social studies teacher.

89 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:51:19pm

re: #84 Decatur Deb

I think the Swedish national beach volleyball team is still OK. I’ll go check.

Mate, do you know how socialist Sweden is? Those chicks are all but wearing hijabs.

90 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:51:58pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam clarifies…

Grover Norquist is a jihadi? Who knew?

91 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:52:45pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

I think she really believes that CPAC has been paid off by the Muslim Brotherhood. She’s not a very smart person.

I don’t think that Beck believes one word of the crap he puts out there, but Gelller does seem like a true believer. Still - she is gaining notoriety…maybe she’ll run for office. Ain’t enough popcorn in the world.

92 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:53:37pm

re: #90 Lidane

Grover Norquist is a jihadi? Who knew?

Well, he has said that he wants to destroy the US Government.

93 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:54:21pm

Family-friendly conservative animation! /

94 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:54:22pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam clarifies…

Pamela Geller at CPAC

[Video]

Right. She’s quoting Sandmonkey? Yet he just said this in his blog:

Save any and all disagreements with any of the groups that operate them. We will disagree with each other, and that will be sweet because no more dictatorship. Tomorrow we squabble,and…tonite?

TONIGHT WE CELEBRATE! :)

FUCK OFF MUBARAK..I HOPE YOU BURN IN HELL! :)

95 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:54:42pm

re: #74 Lidane

Nope. That’s why you need to buy the handy-dandy Glenn Beck Caliphate Survival Kit for your underground bunker, which should be stored with non-hybrid seeds, non-halal foods, guns and ammo, and gold.

Oh, and make sure that everyone in your bunker only speaks English and is a Christian. Can’t take any chances with those brown folks, after all. They’re all out to get you, either by having anchor babies and breeding White America out of existence, or they’re in thrall to the Muslim Brotherhood and will force you to convert to Islam.

/wingnut

If there weren’t so many kernels of truth in your parody of The Great American Wingnut©, personified by Glenn Beck (among others), I’d be ROFL. As it is, I think wingnuts suck…

96 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:55:10pm

Teh Moozlim Brudderhood haz gotten to Sandmonkey!!11ty - Pam Geller

//

97 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:55:18pm

re: #90 Lidane

There’s been wild speculation that he’s been converted by his wife.

98 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:56:11pm

re: #82 wrenchwench

They’re saying it’s the isolationism.

They must be turning neo-con.

There’s nothing new about Paul’s isolationist ideology. How could they know anything about Paul and not have known about his stance on foreign aid, foreign policy, etc.?

99 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:56:33pm

re: #90 Lidane

Grover Norquist is a jihadi? Who knew?

Married to one. He’s toast.

100 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:57:21pm

re: #98 Talking Point Detective

There’s nothing new about Paul’s isolationist ideology. How could they know anything about Paul and not have known about his stance on foreign aid, foreign policy, etc.?

Right. They are the ones who changed (or are claiming to, or are trying to, or something) not Luap Nor.

101 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:57:31pm

re: #96 Gus 802

Teh Moozlim Brudderhood haz gotten to Sandmonkey!!11ty - Pam Geller

//

Get your hands off Sandmonkey you bitch.

102 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:57:35pm

re: #91 Talking Point Detective

I don’t think that Beck believes one word of the crap he puts out there, but Gelller does seem like a true believer. Still - she is gaining notoriety…maybe she’ll run for office. Ain’t enough popcorn in the world.

if Beck didn’t believe his own words, then he’d simply be a world class manipulator who deserves a lot of credit for bullshitting his way to a mega fortune…I think he believes every word he says, therefore he’s a raving lunatic

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:58:11pm

When you’re too nutty for the YAFers to love, it could be time to sit down and seriously consider where your life is going.

104 RadicalModerate  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:59:15pm

As bad-crazy as things were at CPAC, I really am starting to wonder how completely off-the-rails it would have been if groups like the American Family Association, Family Research Council and Media Research Council hadn’t boycotted this year due to their militant religious stances.
Then again the Values Voters Summit is coming up, and only the “pure” will be allowed there…

105 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:59:30pm

re: #84 Decatur Deb

I think the Swedish national beach volleyball team is still OK. I’ll go check.

The Koran tells them they can lie to infidels. The only Muslims who are telling the truth are the ones who say that they’re terrorists. And most of the Swedish national beach volleyball players are sekret Muslim Brotherhood plants - especially on the female team. In case you haven’t heard, 92% of all Europe is now Muslim.

106 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 5:59:47pm

re: #16 Jadespring

Jordan Marks looks to be mid to later thirties to me.

[Link: washingtonexaminer.com…]

If I had more money, I could be a Young Jewish Leader for at least another twenty years.

107 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:00:01pm

I love how LGF has changed.

108 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:01:20pm

re: #102 albusteve

if Beck didn’t believe his own words, then he’d simply be a world class manipulator who deserves a lot of credit for bullshitting his way to a mega fortune…I think he believes every word he says, therefore he’s a raving lunatic

My belief is that he’s an act. He had a fairly long career as a shock jock before he started his current shtick. He’s an entertainer who’s found a good hook.

When he takes off his glasses and tears up, do you really think that he’s expressing one iota of honest emotion? No way.

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:01:40pm

re: #14 Max D. Reinhardt

I would pick Dick Cheney over Ron Paul in a heartbeat. That man should never be allowed near the Oval Office, much less a committee in the House of Representatives.

Quite agreed. I think Cheney may actually be evil, but he’s not stupid and he’s not crazy.

110 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:02:55pm

If Paul were a raving hawk, YAF would love him. Paul’s lunacy isn’t merely his foreign policy views but his backass backwards views on economics.

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:02:56pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Speaking of crazy…
Pam Geller: CPAC Infiltrated By ‘Muslim Brotherhood Activist
[Video]

Blink. Blink. Blink.

112 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:03:09pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam clarifies…

Pamela Geller at CPAC

[Video]

There’s a reason why left wing bloggers are seeking out interviews with the Geller-thing.

113 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:03:29pm

re: #108 Talking Point Detective

My belief is that he’s an act. He had a fairly long career as a shock jock before he started his current shtick. He’s an entertainer who’s found a good hook.

When he takes off his glasses and tears up, do you really think that he’s expressing one iota of honest emotion? No way.

Perhaps the Big Lie works both ways—if you repeat the bull often enough you start to believe it.

114 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:03:29pm

re: #109 SanFranciscoZionist

Quite agreed. I think Cheney may actually be evil, but he’s not stupid and he’s not crazy.

How is Dick Cheney evil?

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:04:11pm

re: #53 Gus 802

I think I’m going to be ill.

I think I need to take Pam to a Bobbi Brown counter and work with her on that eye shadow.

116 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:04:23pm

re: #108 Talking Point Detective

My belief is that he’s an act. He had a fairly long career as a shock jock before he started his current shtick. He’s an entertainer who’s found a good hook.

When he takes off his glasses and tears up, do you really think that he’s expressing one iota of honest emotion? No way.

He may be faking the emotion but he believes what he says.

117 Linden Arden  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:04:48pm

I like that Donald Trump pandered to this crowd with his new found conservative cred and didn’t pull 1% of the vote.

CPAC to Trump “You’re fired.”

And also that 46% of attendees were dissatisfied with the current crop of candidates.

118 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:04:58pm

Hey, isn’t Beck a big Paul fan? Maybe he’ll use his chalkboard to explain to us how YAF is connected to ACORN? Please Glenn, it would make my day.
Love, HW

119 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:06:31pm

Sorry ot, but hell

benrowswell Ben Rowswell
by habibh

Best line of@techatstate so far: Habib Haddad tells crowd “in Egypt the geeks are the leaders today”

120 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:06:36pm

re: #118 HappyWarrior

Hey, isn’t Beck a big Paul fan? Maybe he’ll use his chalkboard to explain to us how YAF is connected to ACORN? Please Glenn, it would make my day.
Love, HW

Young Alinksy Foundation!!11ty

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:06:37pm

re: #62 Talking Point Detective

Is there ANYTHING, ANYWHERE, that hasn’t been infiltrated by the Muslim Brotherhood?

No. The Brotherhood is worldwide. They control the banking, and the media. Their holy books teach them that it is all right to lie to us. They are incredibly wealthy. They control most of the nations of the world. They manipulate our every move, and we don’t know it. They have weird and cruel food requirements, and are sexual perverts who want sleep with innocent European maidens.

//I have a persistent feeling that I’ve heard these charges leveled at…someone else…perhaps another ethnic group…can’t quite recall.

///

122 Alexzander  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:06:42pm

Organizers in Iran plan protests on Monday…


Bizarre how the V for Vendetta Guy Fawkes mask has spread everywhere as the image of resistance. They are using it in Iran now too.

123 Alexzander  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:07:25pm

Wow; complete failure with my link there.

Here is the article about the planned Iranian protests..

124 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:08:03pm

re: #108 Talking Point Detective

My belief is that he’s an act. He had a fairly long career as a shock jock before he started his current shtick. He’s an entertainer who’s found a good hook.

When he takes off his glasses and tears up, do you really think that he’s expressing one iota of honest emotion? No way.

I have no reason to doubt his sincerity…every public person has their shtick…do you doubt Geller’s or Obama’s for that matter?…the shtick is just the vehicle, the method to get their point across

125 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:09:05pm

re: #120 Gus 802

Young Alinksy Foundation!!11ty

“See if you look at this way. You’ll see that YAF stands for Young Americans for Freedom. You know who else courted young people? THat’s right, Karl Marx! And America comes from Amerigo Vespucci who was Italian and Mussolini was Italian and he was a Socialist. Freedom, Obama talks about Freedom.”
There you have it, I connected YAF to Marx, Obama, and Mussolini, and Amerigo Vespuci.

126 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:09:18pm

re: #119 Stanley Sea

Sorry ot, but hell

benrowswell Ben Rowswell
by habibh

Best line of@techatstate so far: Habib Haddad tells crowd “in Egypt the geeks are the leaders today”

Of course as Grant Morrison would tell us, when geeks get power, you get Hitler….

127 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:09:20pm

re: #114 Max D. Reinhardt

How is Dick Cheney evil?

he promoted waterboarding?

128 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:09:21pm
our current socialist presidential regime

I am intensely curious to know what the Tea Party types think constitutes “socialism”. I single out the Tea Partiers because as far as I can remember (which isn’t all that far) the word “SOCIALISM” has only been a boogie-man for the past 3 or so years. If you go back and look at the political controversies of the past several decades, “socialism” doesn’t figure into it.

Which of course means that THE INTERNATIONAL SOCIALIST CONSPIRACY TO SAP AND IMPURIFY ALL OF OUR PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS has been FLYING UNDER THE RADAR ALL THIS TIME.

129 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:09:31pm

re: #116 Jadespring

He may be faking the emotion but he believes what he says.

What he says is nothing but emotion. There’s no actual substance to the words, they’re simply noises that communicate emotions. Much as in that John Oliver interview, what characterises the cult is how completely and passionately they believe. They believe Obama is a tyrannical Muslim. They believe the Communists and the Muslims are banding together and conquering the country even now. They believe the liberals hate them and want to kill their children. They are consumed with fear, and they truly, deeply, believe.

So he can’t be faking the emotion, but believe what he says. It must be one or the other.

130 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:09:53pm

re: #114 Max D. Reinhardt

How is Dick Cheney evil?

No one who looks that much like the Penguin can be pure of heart.

131 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:10:16pm

re: #125 HappyWarrior

“See if you look at this way. You’ll see that YAF stands for Young Americans for Freedom. You know who else courted young people? THat’s right, Karl Marx! And America comes from Amerigo Vespucci who was Italian and Mussolini was Italian and he was a Socialist. Freedom, Obama talks about Freedom.”
There you have it, I connected YAF to Marx, Obama, and Mussolini, and Amerigo Vespuci.

Hey if you keep this up maybe you can get a job as a researcher for Beck.

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:10:50pm

re: #122 Alexzander

133 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:10:54pm

re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist

No one who looks that much like the Penguin can be pure of heart.

TPM posted a photo today in which he looks like Montgomery Burns. A lot.

134 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:10:56pm

re: #122 Alexzander

english.aljazeera.net…]>


Bizarre how the V for Vendetta Guy Fawkes mask has spread everywhere as the image of resistance. They are using it in Iran now too.

The mask is linked to anonymous—they’re not in Iran, THEY’RE EVERYWHERE and nowhere.

135 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:11:17pm

re: #123 Alexzander

Wow; complete failure with my link there.

Here is the article about the planned Iranian protests..

I love this graphic!!!!

Image: 201121214372552140_20.jpg

A Facebook page promoting the February 14 protests reads, ‘Iran’s freedom valentine - don’t forget our date’

Although, please read up to justaminute’s post about her brother in law in Iran. Not going to be easy at all.

136 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:11:19pm

re: #123 Alexzander

Wow; complete failure with my link there.

Here is the article about the planned Iranian protests..

I can haz freedom?

137 talking point detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:11:32pm

re: #124 albusteve

I have no reason to doubt his sincerity…every public person has their shtick…do you doubt Geller’s or Obama’s for that matter?…the shtick is just the vehicle, the method to get their point across

Obama’s a politician. I’m quite sure that he says a lot of things he doesn’t actually believe. Geller, I think is just nuts.

There’s no way to know for sure, but he seems like a complete phony to me - and the tell for me are those crocodile tears. How anyone can not think he is a complete fraud with that shit is beyond me.

138 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:11:46pm

re: #125 HappyWarrior

“See if you look at this way. You’ll see that YAF stands for Young Americans for Freedom. You know who else courted young people? THat’s right, Karl Marx! And America comes from Amerigo Vespucci who was Italian and Mussolini was Italian and he was a Socialist. Freedom, Obama talks about Freedom.”
There you have it, I connected YAF to Marx, Obama, and Mussolini, and Amerigo Vespuci.

Congrats…you win ten internets! ;-P

139 Girth  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:12:18pm

It is my sincere hope that this country, for all our faults, can continue to be a beacon to the world for freedom, a shield from evil and tyranny, and a bastion of opportunity for all who wish to try their best and play by the rules. That future Presidents and Congresses, Democratic and Republican alike, can steer us through these trying times and back to the prosperity of my youth and defend us from those who wish us ill will.

And then we can all point and laugh at these “the sky is falling” dumbfucks.

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:12:22pm

re: #133 wrenchwench

TPM posted a photo today in which he looks like Montgomery Burns. A lot.

He does, however, from the clip I saw of his appearance at CPAC, look in remarkably good health for a man who, to my understanding, was basically put back together with rubber bands and superglue.

141 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:12:40pm

Not everyone at YAF is happy about this.

Name:
Jeremy
Comment:
It’s a sad statement when a once proud organization like YAF has to be reduced to pathetic Neocon hackery. Legitimate disagreements are of course, part of the conservative movement, but somehow YAF couldn’t let itself get in a lather over the past few years when Bush and the rest of the Republicans were selling out conservative principles on the debt and federalism right and left. But along comes Ron Paul and questions the trillions we’ve poured down the tubes in Iraq and Afghanistan and he’s given the boot. Sort of makes you wonder what YAF’s real priorities are?
142 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:12:49pm

re: #112 Charles

There’s a reason why left wing bloggers are seeking out interviews with the Geller-thing.

There is some entertainment value in crazy, and watching someone blindly exposing herself can be quite funny, but only the sane can recognize insanity.

143 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:13:01pm

re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist

Sorry. That was supposed to be: “I’m glad someone is getting some use out of it, because I hated that movie. A lot.”

144 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:13:40pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

He does, however, from the clip I saw of his appearance at CPAC, look in remarkably good health for a man who, to my understanding, was basically put back together with rubber bands and superglue.

No heart, no mas.

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:14:51pm

re: #144 Stanley Sea

No heart, no mas.

And yet, he stands there and snarks happily at the CPACers.

Modern medicine is effing amazing stuff.

146 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:15:13pm

re: #129 Renaissance_Man

What he says is nothing but emotion. There’s no actual substance to the words, they’re simply noises that communicate emotions. Much as in that John Oliver interview, what characterises the cult is how completely and passionately they believe. They believe Obama is a tyrannical Muslim. They believe the Communists and the Muslims are banding together and conquering the country even now. They believe the liberals hate them and want to kill their children. They are consumed with fear, and they truly, deeply, believe.

So he can’t be faking the emotion, but believe what he says. It must be one or the other.

That’s not what I meant by emotion. I thought you were refering to the crying.
If you know what to look for you can tell when someone is talking shit that they don’t believe vs someone who talking shit that they do believe.
Beck is a shit believer.

147 Alexzander  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:15:31pm

I’m really happy Iran may gather a second wind after the events of Egypt. An Iranian friend said that people were massively demoralized after the failure of the last Green Wave.

148 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:16:00pm

re: #127 albusteve

he promoted waterboarding?

I know that if I was George W. Bush or Dick Cheney, and I was responsible for protecting the country after the worst attack on American soil in history, I would use any means necessary to prevent future terrorist attacks.

That may be a very ignoble way to think, but at least it is honest. And don’t kid yourself; if Barack Obama (God forbid) is ever placed in their shoes, he’ll do the same thing.

149 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:16:08pm

Going to try a nap. Later.

150 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:16:10pm

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

And yet, he stands there and snarks happily at the CPACers.

Modern medicine is effing amazing stuff.

The man has NO PULSE! Is that freaky or what?

151 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:18:17pm

re: #147 Alexzander

I’m really happy Iran may gather a second wind after the events of Egypt. An Iranian friend said that people were massively demoralized after the failure of the last Green Wave.

that could be a good thing… my Cuban contacts say they are ready to go… this could go places we didn’t expect.

152 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:18:51pm

re: #150 talon_262

The man has NO PULSE! Is that freaky or what?

Someday he’ll float to the ceiling of the Imperial audience hall and explode.

153 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:19:10pm

re: #151 brookly red

that could be a good thing… my Cuban contacts say they are ready to go… this could go places we didn’t expect.

Yep even to NA too.

154 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:20:36pm

I think it is very cheap to make fun of Dick Cheney’s appearance or his health. The man has suffered five heart attacks. It is a miracle that he is still alive, let alone able to give a speech or write his memoirs.

Whether or not you agree with his post-9/11 decisions is irrelevant. He is still someone’s father, someone’s husband, and someone’s friend.

And just to shoot down the magical balance fairy, I hate it when right wingers poke fun at Obama’s smoking habit and his graying hair.

155 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:20:43pm

re: #148 Max D. Reinhardt

I know that if I was George W. Bush or Dick Cheney, and I was responsible for protecting the country after the worst attack on American soil in history, I would use any means necessary to prevent future terrorist attacks.

That may be a very ignoble way to think, but at least it is honest. And don’t kid yourself; if Barack Obama (God forbid) is ever placed in their shoes, he’ll do the same thing.

maybe so…in any event, regarding Cheney as evil only serves to dilute the definition…it’s pure hyperbole

156 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:20:46pm

I thought Cheney had a striking resemblance to Mr. Potter of It’s a Wonderful Life personally.Maybe it’s the fact that neither man really smiles all that much. Cheney just gives a vibe of mean schoolmaster while his successor, Biden gives a vibe of crazy but lovable uncle. Which reminds me, it was neat to see that Biden enjoys The Onion spoofs of him.

157 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:21:32pm

re: #153 Jadespring

Yep even to NA too.

Slave driver, your table has turned
Catch a fire, your gonna get burned
Slave driver, your table has turned
Catch a fire, your gonna get burned

Marley…

158 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:22:27pm

re: #154 Max D. Reinhardt

I think it is very cheap to make fun of Dick Cheney’s appearance or his health. The man has suffered five heart attacks. It is a miracle that he is still alive, let alone able to give a speech or write his memoirs.

Whether or not you agree with his post-9/11 decisions is irrelevant. He is still someone’s father, someone’s husband, and someone’s friend.

And just to shoot down the magical balance fairy, I hate it when right wingers poke fun at Obama’s smoking habit and his graying hair.

I am certainly not making fun of his health. The fact that he is still alive and making speeches is a flat-out marvel of modern medicine. And probably a testament to his basic toughness.

But he does look a bit like the Penguin, you have to admit, and did before his health declined.

159 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:23:16pm

Excuse me,

floridabuzztap Florida Gators Buzz

Gainesville Sun >> UF beats Tennessee in thriller [Link: buzztap.com…]

160 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:23:18pm

re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist

No one who looks that much like the Penguin can be pure of heart.

He doesn’t have a heart. Or a pulse.

161 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:23:47pm

re: #154 Max D. Reinhardt

I think it is very cheap to make fun of Dick Cheney’s appearance or his health. The man has suffered five heart attacks. It is a miracle that he is still alive, let alone able to give a speech or write his memoirs.

Whether or not you agree with his post-9/11 decisions is irrelevant. He is still someone’s father, someone’s husband, and someone’s friend.

And just to shoot down the magical balance fairy, I hate it when right wingers poke fun at Obama’s smoking habit and his graying hair.

I was not making fun by mentioning the TPM photo. (OK, it is kinda fun.) I like Cheney, although I guess that’s not a popular position here. I loved it when his answer to the question, “What about gay marriage?” was “Freedom is for everyone.”

162 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:24:37pm

re: #160 sagehen

He doesn’t have a heart. Or a pulse.

How does that work, anyway?

(I know I could look this up, I’m just amazed that this is possible.)

163 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:24:52pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

How does that work, anyway?

(I know I could look this up, I’m just amazed that this is possible.)

Machinery.

164 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:24:55pm

re: #156 HappyWarrior

I thought Cheney had a striking resemblance to Mr. Potter of It’s a Wonderful Life personally.Maybe it’s the fact that neither man really smiles all that much. Cheney just gives a vibe of mean schoolmaster while his successor, Biden gives a vibe of crazy but lovable uncle. Which reminds me, it was neat to see that Biden enjoys The Onion spoofs of him.

yeah, at least Biden knows he’s an idiot and not fooling anyone…like a blow up clown that you punch but it just rights itself with the same stupid grin on it’s face

165 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:26:03pm

re: #148 Max D. Reinhardt

I know that if I was George W. Bush or Dick Cheney, and I was responsible for protecting the country after the worst attack on American soil in history, I would use any means necessary to prevent future terrorist attacks.

That may be a very ignoble way to think, but at least it is honest. And don’t kid yourself; if Barack Obama (God forbid) is ever placed in their shoes, he’ll do the same thing.

F*** you for seeding the moral high ground which is what makes America worth defending in the first place.

166 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:26:08pm

re: #164 albusteve

yeah, at least Biden knows he’s an idiot and not fooling anyone…like a blow up clown that you punch but it just rights itself with the same stupid grin on it’s face

Biden makes well publicized gaffs, but the guy is very very successful. Sorry that’s been lost. He can handle it though.

167 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:26:53pm

the young disrespect the old, for but a short time.

168 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:27:00pm

re: #148 Max D. Reinhardt

I know that if I was George W. Bush or Dick Cheney, and I was responsible for protecting the country after the worst attack on American soil in history, I would use any means necessary to prevent future terrorist attacks.

That may be a very ignoble way to think, but at least it is honest. And don’t kid yourself; if Barack Obama (God forbid) is ever placed in their shoes, he’ll do the same thing.

And if I was George W Bush or Dick Cheney, and my incompetence was responsible for allowing that worst attack to happen in the first place, I’d never be able to look in a mirror again.

169 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:27:16pm

I wish Cheney had stood up for gay rights more as VP really. Wish he would have told Bush to hell with the FMA. Now, to be fair to the man, he was a lot better to his daughter than Alan Keyes who disowned his and referred to her as a selfish hedonist or some crap like that but it would have been nice if Cheney had taken a stand in 2004 when the Bush Administration tried to ban gay mrraige everywhere.

170 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:27:17pm

re: #154 Max D. Reinhardt

I think it is very cheap to make fun of Dick Cheney’s appearance or his health. The man has suffered five heart attacks. It is a miracle that he is still alive, let alone able to give a speech or write his memoirs.

Whether or not you agree with his post-9/11 decisions is irrelevant. He is still someone’s father, someone’s husband, and someone’s friend.

And just to shoot down the magical balance fairy, I hate it when right wingers poke fun at Obama’s smoking habit and his graying hair.

Hey, I wasn’t making fun of Cheney, just stating a fact. The heart assist pump he has makes him have no pulse IIRC, since it runs at a more-or-less constant speed all of the time..

Chill…

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:27:21pm

re: #155 albusteve

maybe so…in any event, regarding Cheney as evil only serves to dilute the definition…it’s pure hyperbole

This is true. I stand corrected. Allow me to restate:

“Dick Cheney is, undoubtedly, an asshole, but he is neither crazy, nor stupid.”

This was, BTW, meant to be a compliment to Cheney, who has never characterized himself as a nice guy, but whose brand of assholishness I find infinitely superior to the Paulian Kookiness.

172 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:27:51pm

re: #163 Stanley Sea

Machinery.

He’s more machine than man now
Obi-Wan Kenobi…

173 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:28:26pm

re: #167 brookly red

the young disrespect the old, for but a short time.

you have been warned.

174 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:28:32pm

re: #167 brookly red

FYI, I have a date tonight. Going to an Italian rest. :)

175 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:28:37pm

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

This is true. I stand corrected. Allow me to restate:

“Dick Cheney is, undoubtedly, an asshole, but he is neither crazy, nor stupid.”

This was, BTW, meant to be a compliment to Cheney, who has never characterized himself as a nice guy, but whose brand of assholishness I find infinitely superior to the Paulian Kookiness.

Yeah, at least with Cheney, you get someone who’s smart. Never going to be a fan of his but never have I denied the man’s intelligence.

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:28:42pm

re: #172 jamesfirecat

He’s more machine than man now
Obi-Wan Kenobi…

He actually doesn’t look much older than he did when Bush came into office.

177 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:29:16pm

re: #174 Stanley Sea

FYI, I have a date tonight. Going to an Italian rest. :)

go for it !

178 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:29:31pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

How does that work, anyway?

(I know I could look this up, I’m just amazed that this is possible.)

Instead of a pacemaker that twitches the muscle, it’s a constant flow pump… experimental technology, he’s like the 3rd or 4th person to have it.

179 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:29:47pm

re: #165 jamesfirecat

F*** you for seeding the moral high ground which is what makes America worth defending in the first place.

Upding, but it’s “ceding”.

180 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:30:23pm

re: #179 Decatur Deb

Upding, but it’s “ceding”.

GRAMMAR NAZI!!!11ty

///

181 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:32:38pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

How does that work, anyway?

(I know I could look this up, I’m just amazed that this is possible.)

VAD

182 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:32:46pm

re: #174 Stanley Sea

and yes I am jealous.

183 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:35:41pm

re: #182 brookly red

and yes I am jealous.

I’m anxious. 9pm dinner, nice. We’ll see eee eee

184 BishopX  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:35:48pm

re: #148 Max D. Reinhardt

I know that if I was George W. Bush or Dick Cheney, and I was responsible for protecting the country after the worst attack on American soil in history, I would use any means necessary to prevent future terrorist attacks.

That may be a very ignoble way to think, but at least it is honest. And don’t kid yourself; if Barack Obama (God forbid) is ever placed in their shoes, he’ll do the same thing.

I’m sorry, but no…you’re wrong. America’s use of torture post 9/11 was a sign of hubris on the part of the neo-cons in the Bush administration. The experts told them that the world didn’t work the they thought it did, that wars took time and troops, the democracy had to be built from within, that land wars in Asia were a bad idea and that the best way to get information out of prisoners was to gain their trust and polish their egos. So they found new experts.

In terms of interrogation, they threw out the decades of experience the FBI and CIA had with interrogations and instead they talked to some psychologists employed at SERE who talked some crap about learned helplessness and talked about applying what they were training American soldiers to resist. Water boarding entered the modern military curriculum because the North Koreans water boarded PoWs to make them more complaint for show trials. It was not intended as an interrogation technique. They did this because they were sure that they were smarter than the FBI bureaucrats, and that there had to be a faster way of doing this. If they had wanted America to be safer they should have asked the experts.

185 laZardo  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:35:52pm

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

This is true. I stand corrected. Allow me to restate:

“Dick Cheney is, undoubtedly, an asshole, but he is neither crazy, nor stupid.”

This was, BTW, meant to be a compliment to Cheney, who has never characterized himself as a nice guy, but whose brand of assholishness I find infinitely superior to the Paulian Kookiness.

Dick Cheney Facts:

• When it snows in Washington, Dick Cheney doesn’t put chains on his tires, but instead uses hippies.

• Dick Cheney’s favorite snack? Souls.

• Ants have the proportional strength of Dick Cheney.

• For the past 32 years during his family’s Christmas dinner Dick Cheney has carved and served the turkey pardoned by the President at Thanksgiving.

• In most places where West Texas Intermediate (WTI) crude oil is pumped and sold, it is actually referred to by its more common name, “light, sweet Cheney.”

• Dick Cheney was bitten by a radioactive spider in high school, imparting to the spider Cheney-like powers.

• When a new senator places his hand on the book to be sworn in, very few realize it is actually the Necronomicon until Cheney laughs and tells them “you’re mine now”.

186 Alexzander  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:36:07pm

Iran hinders web searches leading up to planned rally, sources say

They are blocking the word Bahman, the 11th month of the year. The 25th of Bhaman is the Monday.

187 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:36:37pm

re: #184 BishopX

I’m sorry, but no…you’re wrong. America’s use of torture post 9/11 was a sign of hubris on the part of the neo-cons in the Bush administration. The experts told them that the world didn’t work the they thought it did, that wars took time and troops, the democracy had to be built from within, that land wars in Asia were a bad idea and that the best way to get information out of prisoners was to gain their trust and polish their egos. So they found new experts.

In terms of interrogation, they threw out the decades of experience the FBI and CIA had with interrogations and instead they talked to some psychologists employed at SERE who talked some crap about learned helplessness and talked about applying what they were training American soldiers to resist. Water boarding entered the modern military curriculum because the North Koreans water boarded PoWs to make them more complaint for show trials. It was not intended as an interrogation technique. They did this because they were sure that they were smarter than the FBI bureaucrats, and that there had to be a faster way of doing this. If they had wanted America to be safer they should have asked the experts.

Quite concur (d_f)

188 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:37:11pm

re: #165 jamesfirecat

F*** you for seeding the moral high ground which is what makes America worth defending in the first place.

It’s a tragic way to think, but at least I am being honest. I understand what they did and why they did it.

And I don’t think that Barack Obama’s order to assassinate an American citizen or his policy of indefinite detention put America back on the “moral high ground” that he and his fellow Democrats promised to return us to back in 2008.

The presidency is a tough job with some tough decisions, and I am glad that I do not have to make them.

189 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:37:12pm

re: #183 Stanley Sea

I’m anxious. 9pm dinner, nice. We’ll see eee eee

you will do just fine… just don’t talk politics on a first date.

190 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:37:37pm

re: #186 Alexzander

did you read justaminutes post above? On the ground reporting.

191 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:38:29pm

re: #189 brookly red

you will do just fine… just don’t talk politics on a first date.

Are you kidding me? Kiss of death. I just wait for them to spout some Tea Party shit & my mind is made up.

192 Alexzander  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:39:45pm

re: #190 Stanley Sea

did you read justaminutes post above? On the ground reporting.

I apologise; I’m not sure where the post is… Didn’t see anything in this thread.

193 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:40:45pm

Later, lizards.

194 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:41:47pm

re: #191 Stanley Sea

Are you kidding me? Kiss of death. I just wait for them to spout some Tea Party shit & my mind is made up.

where you live the odds are in you favor… the full moon is on the 18th… seafood will be good but not perfect.

195 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:42:32pm

re: #186 Alexzander

Let’s pray that the Iranians will throw off their government. Also hope that the Algerians will rally again. Algeria, after so much pain, needs to have hope and freedom. Yes, I know it’s cheesy.

196 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:42:44pm

re: #192 Alexzander

I apologise; I’m not sure where the post is… Didn’t see anything in this thread.

My LGF search failed. Basically her husband spoke to his bro in Iran. They have shut down the internet, and 1/2 way the phones, while threatening to take away everyone in the family of a protester. Bad shit, tough times.

But hopefully the people will uprise. Know hope.

197 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:43:47pm

re: #188 Max D. Reinhardt

It’s a tragic way to think, but at least I am being honest. I understand what they did and why they did it.

And I don’t think that Barack Obama’s order to assassinate an American citizen or his policy of indefinite detention put America back on the “moral high ground” that he and his fellow Democrats promised to return us to back in 2008.

The presidency is a tough job with some tough decisions, and I am glad that I do not have to make them.

You can understand why they did what they did, and still think they should be on trial (not saying they’re guilty but their should be a trial to get to the bottom of this) at the Hague you know….

198 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:44:29pm

re: #194 brookly red

where you live the odds are in you favor… the full moon is on the 18th… seafood will be good but not perfect.

It’s the 12th. I’m for ziti or calamari regardless.

199 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:44:30pm

re: #184 BishopX

The experts told them that the world didn’t work the they thought it did, that wars took time and troops, the democracy had to be built from within, that land wars in Asia were a bad idea and that the best way to get information out of prisoners was to gain their trust and polish their egos.

The “neo-cons”, along millions of other Americans, were sure that more terrorist attacks were eminent. The old techniques may be better and more morally sound, but I can understand why they didn’t use them. They were afraid, like the rest of us, that if they didn’t act quickly there would be another attack.

I can understand why in retrospect would critique this policy (and I does deserve to be critiqued), but saying that it was all because of hubris is just silly.

200 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:44:42pm

re: #196 Stanley Sea

My LGF search failed. Basically her husband spoke to his bro in Iran. They have shut down the internet, and 1/2 way the phones, while threatening to take away everyone in the family of a protester. Bad shit, tough times.

But hopefully the people will uprise. Know hope.

and perhaps we will support them THIS time…

201 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:44:58pm

re: #197 jamesfirecat

Nevah will happen.

202 Alexzander  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:45:10pm

re: #196 Stanley Sea

My LGF search failed. Basically her husband spoke to his bro in Iran. They have shut down the internet, and 1/2 way the phones, while threatening to take away everyone in the family of a protester. Bad shit, tough times.

But hopefully the people will uprise. Know hope.

That is incredibly scary. It is too bad there isn’t more than can be done by supporters in North America and elsewhere. If they performed a successful revolution it would be to the benefit of the whole world.

203 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:45:17pm

re: #197 jamesfirecat

You can understand why they did what they did, and still think they should be on trial (not saying they’re guilty but their should be a trial to get to the bottom of this) at the Hague you know…

Yikes.

204 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:46:23pm

re: #198 Stanley Sea

It’s the 12th. I’m for ziti or calamari regardless.

ziti & calamari… ahhh if only things were different.

205 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:46:23pm

re: #202 Alexzander

That is incredibly scary. It is too bad there isn’t more than can be done by supporters in North America and elsewhere. If they performed a successful revolution it would be to the benefit of the whole world.

My theory? Know hope, wait patiently, do not interfere. What happens will happen, and the ball is rolling down hill.

206 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:46:56pm

re: #197 jamesfirecat

You can understand why they did what they did, and still think they should be on trial (not saying they’re guilty but their should be a trial to get to the bottom of this) at the Hague you know…

Not at the Hague — convene a Grand Jury in DC.

We should do our own damn laundry.

207 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:47:01pm

re: #196 Stanley Sea

My LGF search failed. Basically her husband spoke to his bro in Iran. They have shut down the internet, and 1/2 way the phones, while threatening to take away everyone in the family of a protester. Bad shit, tough times.

But hopefully the people will uprise. Know hope.

I’d rather they didn’t, considering the results from the last time…I don’t think the Iranians have it in them to make the monumental, bloody sacrifice it will take to bring down the mullahs

208 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:47:12pm

re: #203 Max D. Reinhardt

Yikes.

What? Is authorizing torture not a war crime all of a sudden?

209 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:48:11pm

OK, levity here, I’m going to get beautiful.

Have a good night LGF.

210 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:48:33pm

re: #207 albusteve

I’d rather they didn’t, considering the results from the last time…I don’t think the Iranians have it in them to make the monumental, bloody sacrifice it will take to bring down the mullahs

gosh, it is tough to take it to the streets… people call you racist & all kinds of things.

211 Alexzander  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:48:36pm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/2011/02/wave-of-support-for-demonstrations-on-february-14.html

This page lists a huge number of Iranians that have already been arrested in the lead up to Monday.

212 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:49:21pm

re: #203 Max D. Reinhardt

Yikes.

yup…put a former POTUS on trial for war crimes…chew on that

213 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:49:39pm

re: #202 Alexzander

That is incredibly scary. It is too bad there isn’t more than can be done by supporters in North America and elsewhere. If they performed a successful revolution it would be to the benefit of the whole world.

People are doing things. A really important thing is to help get out and disseminate information. Information and exposure is not good in the eyes of an oppressive regime.

214 BishopX  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:49:43pm

re: #199 Max D. Reinhardt

So lets take the flip side: if there had been a second 9/11, and afterward it came out that the administration had disregarded the experts and consequently missed the second attack because they were unable to get the right intelligence out of AQ detainees. They would have been seen as incompetent morons with the blood of innocent Americans on their hands.

215 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:50:39pm

re: #212 albusteve

yup…put a former POTUS on trial for war crimes…chew on that

I know. America is on its knees and a trial of a former President would break its head.

216 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:51:08pm

re: #212 albusteve

yup…put a former POTUS on trial for war crimes…chew on that

As I have heard said so many times before, the innocent have nothing to fear.

Not to mention no one is above the law…..

217 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:51:26pm

re: #215 Max D. Reinhardt

I know. America is on its knees and a trial of a former President would break its head.

What would “breaking Americas head” mean exactly?

218 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:51:46pm

re: #216 jamesfirecat

your idealism is burning out your brain

219 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:52:06pm

re: #206 sagehen

Not at the Hague — convene a Grand Jury in DC.

We should do our own damn laundry.

That would be fine with me also.

220 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:52:35pm

The purpose of the war crimes trials is not to break anyone’s heads. It’s to prevent future war crimes by persons in similar positions by showing that there is just no immunity in certain cases.

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:52:47pm

re: #210 brookly red

gosh, it is tough to take it to the streets… people call you racist & all kinds of things.

.

222 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:53:04pm

re: #214 BishopX

So lets take the flip side: if there had been a second 9/11, and afterward it came out that the administration had disregarded the experts and consequently missed the second attack because they were unable to get the right intelligence out of AQ detainees. They would have been seen as incompetent morons with the blood of innocent Americans on their hands.

I totally agree, but it never happened.

223 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:53:10pm

re: #216 jamesfirecat

As I have heard said so many times before, the innocent have nothing to fear.

Not to mention no one is above the law…

well for that matter the current admin. is technically in contempt of court for pursuing the health care thing. minor detail.

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:53:31pm

re: #215 Max D. Reinhardt

I know. America is on its knees and a trial of a former President would break its head.

I wouldn’t say we’re on our knees. Our back is giving us trouble.

225 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:53:38pm

re: #212 albusteve

yup…put a former POTUS on trial for war crimes…chew on that

Either the rule of law means something, or it doesn’t.

226 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:54:33pm

re: #225 sagehen

Either the rule of law means something, or it doesn’t.

well for that matter the current admin. is technically in contempt of court for pursuing the health care thing. minor detail.

227 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:54:41pm

re: #223 brookly red

well for that matter the current admin. is technically in contempt of court for pursuing the health care thing. minor detail.

not to mention it’s brazen disregard for securing our borders

228 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:55:12pm

Republican Woman…….. (stay away from me…..)


229 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:55:14pm

re: #222 Max D. Reinhardt

I totally agree, but it never happened.

Except for the entire Anthrax thing….

230 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:55:18pm

re: #25 Lidane

This one is my favorite so far:

He’s already getting pushback for it, too. This is great.

Hopefully, this can be the start of the removal of the Paulians from the GOP. It’s something the party badly needs.

231 Querent  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:55:33pm

re: #94 Gus 802

Sandmonkey’s still blogging?

There is a God after all…

232 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:55:39pm

re: #226 brookly red

well for that matter the current admin. is technically in contempt of court for pursuing the health care thing. minor detail.

Huh? Can you explain this to me in more detail?

233 BishopX  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:55:46pm

re: #222 Max D. Reinhardt

It didn’t happen because some idiot forgot to bring a lighter onto a plane, tried to use matches instead.

Lady luck smiles on children and fools.

234 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:55:54pm

re: #226 brookly red

well for that matter the current admin. is technically in contempt of court for pursuing the health care thing. minor detail.

No they’re not. The case is under appeal, no injunction is in effect.

235 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:55:57pm

re: #217 jamesfirecat

What would “breaking Americas head” mean exactly?

The trial of a former President would shatter the already flimsy confidence that the American people have in their government. We can only speculate, but things would get ugly.

We wouldn’t be all teary-eyed and happy that the evol Imperial warlord ChimpyMcHitlerburton was convicted of war crimes.

236 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:56:10pm

re: #227 albusteve

not to mention it’s brazen disregard for securing our borders

well that has not yet been ruled upon… but I get your point.

237 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:56:30pm

re: #227 albusteve

not to mention it’s brazen disregard for securing our borders

What more do you want it to do before you consider our borders secure?

238 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:57:55pm

re: #225 sagehen

Either the rule of law means something, or it doesn’t.

In this case, it doesn’t.

239 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:58:27pm

re: #237 jamesfirecat

What more do you want it to do before you consider our borders secure?

well we could, like you know secure them…

240 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:58:31pm

re: #235 Max D. Reinhardt

The trial of a former President would shatter the already flimsy confidence that the American people have in their government. We can only speculate, but things would get ugly.

We wouldn’t be all teary-eyed and happy that the evol Imperial warlord ChimpyMcHitlerburton was convicted of war crimes.

The American people survived seeing Nixon quit because he knew he had no chance.

I don’t care how ugly it gets, the truth is worth finding out….

If it shattered Americas sense that we can do no wrong, maybe that is a good thing…

241 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:59:07pm

re: #239 brookly red

well we could, like you know secure them…

By doing what?

242 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:59:18pm

re: #237 jamesfirecat

What more do you want it to do before you consider our borders secure?

I’m not in the mood to debate such stupid notions…go ahead and sop up the HS drool of the day

243 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:59:32pm

re: #214 BishopX

So lets take the flip side: if there had been a second 9/11, and afterward it came out that the administration had disregarded the experts and consequently missed the second attack because they were unable to get the right intelligence out of AQ detainees. They would have been seen as incompetent morons with the blood of innocent Americans on their hands.

I’m not sure our allies in London, Madrid and Bali were really impressed with “better it should happen over there instead of here.”

244 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:59:49pm

re: #229 jamesfirecat

Except for the entire Anthrax thing…

Except that the 2001 Anthrax attacks weren’t committed by Al Qaeda or Islamic terrorists. It most likely came from an American Roman Catholic.

245 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:59:57pm

re: #235 Max D. Reinhardt

The trial of a former President would shatter the already flimsy confidence that the American people have in their government. We can only speculate, but things would get ugly.

We wouldn’t be all teary-eyed and happy that the evol Imperial warlord ChimpyMcHitlerburton was convicted of war crimes.

Not to mention the fact that to go after a president for political actions he took while in office would set a very dangerous precedent. Both sides would always be trying to charge presidents of the other side. Bush has left office and is not active politically. Leave him alone.

246 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:00:18pm

re: #239 brookly red

well we could, like you know secure them…

How?

247 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:00:20pm

I should point out the reason why I am so pro-Morocco, because the US and Morocco have a history together.

Relations between the Kingdom of Morocco and the United States date back to the earliest days of U.S. history. On December 20, 1777, Morocco formally recognized the colonies as a unified sovereign nation. Morocco was the first nation to recognize the United States and so bilateral relations were born.

They thought we were worth recognizing. I distinctly remember seeing the Morocco did some blockade runniong too. I bring up Morocco when anyone says that Islam and the US can’t get along. I’m known by my friends for being very heavily Pro-Moroccan.

248 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:00:28pm

re: #244 Max D. Reinhardt

Except that the 2001 Anthrax attacks weren’t committed by Al Qaeda or Islamic terrorists. It most likely came from an American Roman Catholic.

It was still an example of the Terrorist attack taking place on United States soil that we failed to see coming after 9/11

249 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:00:30pm

Breaking: Multiple people hospitalized after they were exposed to an unknown substance at Powell St. BART Station, SFFD says. More to come. #lgf #SF this is a tweet from Californiabeat [Link: twitter.com…]

Other tweets say there’s a hazmat team there

250 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:00:39pm

re: #234 sagehen

No they’re not. The case is under appeal, no injunction is in effect.

an injunction is only called for in the face of contempt (expect one soon) otherwise judges expect their rulings to be obeyed…

251 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:01:01pm

re: #240 jamesfirecat

The American people survived seeing Nixon quit because he knew he had no chance.

I don’t care how ugly it gets, the truth is worth finding out…

If it shattered Americas sense that we can do no wrong, maybe that is a good thing…

I disagree with the bolded part, vehemently. Sometimes it far better to not know.

252 Interesting Times  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:01:21pm

re: #237 jamesfirecat

What more do you want it to do before you consider our borders secure?

Deportation of illegal immigrants increases under Obama administration

The Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency expects to deport about 400,000 people this fiscal year, nearly 10 percent above the Bush administration’s 2008 total and 25 percent more than were deported in 2007. The pace of company audits has roughly quadrupled since President George W. Bush’s final year in office.

Oh yeah, such “brazen disregard” for the securing the borders… 9_9

253 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:01:43pm

re: #243 sagehen

I’m not sure our allies in London, Madrid and Bali were really impressed with “better it should happen over there instead of here.”

I certainly wasn’t.

But London coped, Madrid coped - Bali coped.

We are still here (and not caking our pants) - just getting on with life as we have in the UK and Spain for the best of the last 4 decades living under terrorist threat from organized groups.

4 decades, i’ll repeat that - 4.

254 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:01:51pm

re: #247 ProLifeLiberal

I should point out the reason why I am so pro-Morocco, because the US and Morocco have a history together.

They thought we were worth recognizing. I distinctly remember seeing the Morocco did some blockade runniong too. I bring up Morocco when anyone says that Islam and the US can’t get along. I’m known by my friends for being very heavily Pro-Moroccan.

Did not know that. Pretty interesting that the first nation to recongize the US as a sovereign nation was a Muslim one. You ever have Moroccan food before? Pretty good stuff. There’s a Morrocan hookah bar that I go to sometimes in Adams Morgan and the food there is great. Really nice people too.

255 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:01:58pm

re: #241 jamesfirecat

By doing what?

I am going to do a Steve & and not discuss the obvious.

256 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:02:04pm

re: #250 brookly red

an injunction is only called for in the face of contempt (expect one soon) otherwise judges expect their rulings to be obeyed…

Except that there have been just as many judges who have said it is legal as it isn’t…. so arguably until a higher court rules on the issue we’re in “contempt of court” no mater what we do….

257 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:02:40pm

re: #251 Dark_Falcon

I disagree with the bolded part, vehemently. Sometimes it far better to not know.

Sorry Dark. Maybe I’ve played too many Phoenix Wright games, but I can’t imagine a truth that is better left concealed.

258 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:03:15pm

re: #252 publicityStunted

Deportation of illegal immigrants increases under Obama administration

Oh yeah, such “brazen disregard” for the securing the borders… 9_9

these are soft, multiple deportees…they have been around for years and should have been jailed long ago….more fluff from HS, it’s bullshit

259 polypam  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:03:22pm

re: #249 Thanos

Scary news, especially in light of tonight’s discussion.

260 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:03:31pm

re: #255 brookly red

I am going to do a Steve & and not discuss the obvious.

“The answer is so obvious that I shouldn’t have to say it” is a piss poor argument strategy….

261 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:03:33pm

re: #256 jamesfirecat

Except that there have been just as many judges who have said it is legal as it isn’t… so arguably until a higher court rules on the issue we’re in “contempt of court” no mater what we do…

Only one judge ruled in favor of the law on the merits. The other suit was tossed because the plaintiffs lacked standing to sue.

262 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:03:44pm

re: #257 jamesfirecat

Sorry Dark. Maybe I’ve played too many Phoenix Wright games, but I can’t imagine a truth that is better left concealed.

You are your own grand’pa…….

263 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:03:59pm

It’s a sad day in American history when a one-time conservative/libertarian stalwart

let me know when the libertarian conservative, the family values conservatives, the neo-cons, and the mainstream conservatives stop excommunicating each other and elect a new pope

264 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:04:12pm

re: #257 jamesfirecat

Sorry Dark. Maybe I’ve played too many Phoenix Wright games, but I can’t imagine a truth that is better left concealed.

Then we disagree.

265 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:04:26pm

re: #240 jamesfirecat

The American people survived seeing Nixon quit because he knew he had no chance.

I don’t care how ugly it gets, the truth is worth finding out…

If it shattered Americas sense that we can do no wrong, maybe that is a good thing…

I’m sorry but campaign crimes and war crimes are not in the same field.

This will not heal any wounds. In all probability, it will inflame anti-Americanism in Europe, Latin America, and the Muslim world. It is best to let sleeping dogs lie.

Barack Obama is right, it is time to “turn the page,” and focus on the future.

266 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:04:38pm

re: #256 jamesfirecat

Except that there have been just as many judges who have said it is legal as it isn’t… so arguably until a higher court rules on the issue we’re in “contempt of court” no mater what we do…

right. so let us go right to the supremes & not delay this another moment.

267 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:04:53pm

re: #240 jamesfirecat

The American people survived seeing Nixon quit because he knew he had no chance.

I don’t care how ugly it gets, the truth is worth finding out…

If it shattered Americas sense that we can do no wrong, maybe that is a good thing…

Same problem everywhere. The “national pride”. “Bastard, but our bastard”.

268 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:05:30pm

re: #261 Dark_Falcon

Only one judge ruled in favor of the law on the merits. The other suit was tossed because the plaintiffs lacked standing to sue.

Fair enough, but still we’ve had a judge rule in favor of the law on its merits, so if we just rolled over and stopped enforcing the law we’d be in contempt of his ruling technically wouldn’t we?

Either way, clearly we need to have a higher court rule on the issue… and it probably won’t be resolved one way or another till it gets to the supreme court where it will be a 5 to 4 vote… don’t know which way…

269 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:05:51pm

re: #264 Dark_Falcon

Then we disagree.

Can you at least give me an example of when a truth is better left unkown?

270 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:05:51pm

re: #260 jamesfirecat

“The answer is so obvious that I shouldn’t have to say it” is a piss poor argument strategy…

and you base that on what facts? just curious?

271 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:05:55pm

re: #248 jamesfirecat

It was still an example of the Terrorist attack taking place on United States soil that we failed to see coming after 9/11

The anthrax attacks were committed by a mentally unstable American. It is likely that they would’ve occurred even if the 9/11 attacks never happened.

272 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:05:56pm

re: #259 polypam

Scary news, especially in light of tonight’s discussion.

Right now they are saying 8 hospitalized, but if you are in SF stay out of BART for now…

273 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:06:37pm

re: #266 brookly red

right. so let us go right to the supremes & not delay this another moment.

Come on… bring it!

274 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:07:28pm

re: #257 jamesfirecat

Sorry Dark. Maybe I’ve played too many Phoenix Wright games, but I can’t imagine a truth that is better left concealed.

you have no clue as to how much you do not know….your position is naive at best…the feds do not operate within parameters of truth…they deal with cost/benefit and it’s nothing new

275 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:09:07pm

re: #260 jamesfirecat

“The answer is so obvious that I shouldn’t have to say it” is a piss poor argument strategy…

and you simply want your desire for argument fed…you are not about reasonable debate, you are about being right….it’s boring

276 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:09:33pm

re: #250 brookly red

an injunction is only called for in the face of contempt (expect one soon) otherwise judges expect their rulings to be obeyed…

considering that the part of the law that they don’t like isn’t scheduled to go into effect until 2014, how’s that supposed to work?

277 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:09:54pm

re: #265 Max D. Reinhardt

I’m sorry but campaign crimes and war crimes are not in the same field.

This will not heal any wounds. In all probability, it will inflame anti-Americanism in Europe, Latin America, and the Muslim world. It is best to let sleeping dogs lie.

Barack Obama is right, it is time to “turn the page,” and focus on the future.

Um how is “authorized torture” only a “campaign crime”?

I’m not saying it would heal wounds.

It would divide America even more…

But I feel like the civil war it would create a stronger America in its wake rather than leaving the wound to fester.

It will never happen of course so this is all pointless conjecture, but what’s the internet for if not pointless conjecture?

///Porn.

278 laZardo  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:10:26pm

re: #263 engineer dog

It’s a sad day in American history when a one-time conservative/libertarian stalwart

let me know when the libertarian conservative, the family values conservatives, the neo-cons, and the mainstream conservatives stop excommunicating each other and elect a new pope


Conservatism is all about purity. They’re probably gonna go to war over something like that.

279 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:10:35pm

re: #227 albusteve

not to mention it’s brazen disregard for securing our borders

Has any administration ever shown regard for securing our borders?

280 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:11:14pm

re: #273 brookly red

Come on… bring it!

You get no argument from me on this.

If we lose we can figure out another way to make it work, if we win, well then the issue is settled.

281 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:11:39pm

re: #276 engineer dog

considering that the part of the law that they don’t like isn’t scheduled to go into effect until 2014, how’s that supposed to work?

well I am glad you asked, the preparation for 2014 needs to be set up and funded…

282 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:11:50pm

re: #233 BishopX

It didn’t happen because some idiot forgot to bring a lighter onto a plane, tried to use matches instead.

Lady luck smiles on children and fools.

“There is a special Providence which watches over drunkards, idiots, children and the United States of America.”

283 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:12:11pm

re: #269 jamesfirecat

Can you at least give me an example of when a truth is better left unknown?

I can think of the Total Information Awareness data mining program that got scrapped because it was outed before it could be made properly ready and explained. It would have been much better had its development continued in secret and the program only made public when it was ready and it could be properly explained to the citizens.

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:12:28pm

re: #239 brookly red

well we could, like you know secure them…

No. We could not. We could do more, but we cannot ‘secure’ the borders in the sense that no one will be able to move across them illicitly.

285 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:12:35pm

re: #279 SanFranciscoZionist

Has any administration ever shown regard for securing our borders?

1860-1865?

286 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:12:43pm

re: #279 SanFranciscoZionist

Has any administration ever shown regard for securing our borders?

no…bring them all up on charges if your going to prosecute presidents

287 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:12:53pm

re: #280 jamesfirecat

You get no argument from me on this.

If we lose we can figure out another way to make it work, if we win, well then the issue is settled.

/da comrade, by any means necessary…

288 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:13:49pm

re: #249 Thanos

Breaking: Multiple people hospitalized after they were exposed to an unknown substance at Powell St. BART Station, SFFD says. More to come. #lgf #SF this is a tweet from Californiabeat [Link: twitter.com…]

Other tweets say there’s a hazmat team there

WTF?

289 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:13:50pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

No. We could not. We could do more, but we cannot ‘secure’ the borders in the sense that no one will be able to move across them illicitly.

we could try?

290 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:14:19pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

Know anything more on what is going on at the Powell St. station of BART? You’re name says San Francisco, so I’m guessing you may know more than we do.

291 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:14:23pm

re: #277 jamesfirecat

Um how is “authorized torture” only a “campaign crime”?

I’m not saying it would heal wounds.

It would divide America even more…

But I feel like the civil war it would create a stronger America in its wake rather than leaving the wound to fester.

It will never happen of course so this is all pointless conjecture, but what’s the internet for if not pointless conjecture?

///Porn.

You’re assuming that the “right side” would win any such clash. It strikes me as more likely that things would end with the left being violently suppressed. Don’t wish for a major split in America, young James.

292 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:14:32pm

re: #277 jamesfirecat

Um how is “authorized torture” only a “campaign crime”?

You referenced Richard Nixon. Comparing Nixon’s sleazy campaign tricks to the perils faced by the Bush administration is an apples to oranges comparison.

But I feel like the civil war it would create a stronger America in its wake rather than leaving the wound to fester.

No. It wouldn’t.

Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going to go to Home Depot to buy some wood and some nails to make you a soap box and a stable to house your high horse in.

293 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:14:59pm

re: #289 brookly red

we could try?

if they made 10,000 extra border guard available somebody would still say that it isn’t enough.

294 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:15:06pm

re: #258 albusteve

these are soft, multiple deportees…they have been around for years and should have been jailed long ago…more fluff from HS, it’s bullshit

You know, sometimes administrations, like children, benefit from ‘that’s better’, rather than ‘that’s not perfect yet’.

295 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:15:16pm

re: #283 Dark_Falcon

I can think of the Total Information Awareness data mining program that got scrapped because it was outed before it could be made properly ready and explained. It would have been much better had its development continued in secret and the program only made public when it was ready and it could be properly explained to the citizens.

That’s a truth dealing with something that would have happened.

So I’ll give you that, there are things we as civilians are not privileged to know as they take place….

But I can’t imagine that there are truths about our past that can be considered better for America not to know…

296 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:15:18pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

No. We could not. We could do more, but we cannot ‘secure’ the borders in the sense that no one will be able to move across them illicitly.

you need percentages…okay, I’d settle for 80-90% success rate at deterring illegals, relatively speaking of course

297 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:16:28pm

re: #286 albusteve

no…bring them all up on charges if your going to prosecute presidents

Greaaaat.

298 Querent  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:16:29pm

re: #249 Thanos

Breaking: Multiple people hospitalized after they were exposed to an unknown substance at Powell St. BART Station, SFFD says. More to come. #lgf #SF this is a tweet from Californiabeat [Link: twitter.com…]

Other tweets say there’s a hazmat team there

oh dear…

299 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:16:52pm

re: #289 brookly red

we could try?

Try how?

300 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:17:06pm

re: #289 brookly red

we could try?

We do try. We try all the time. The current administration has made several sensible and proactive moves toward trying more.

301 brookly red  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:17:07pm

well, it’s Saturday night and well I hope you all have fun here… me I am steeping out, see yah

302 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:17:42pm

re: #291 Dark_Falcon

You’re assuming that the “right side” would win any such clash. It strikes me as more likely that things would end with the left being violently suppressed. Don’t wish for a major split in America, young James.

That’s an objectively anti-American statement AFAIC, though not in intent.

303 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:18:03pm

re: #291 Dark_Falcon

You’re assuming that the “right side” would win any such clash. It strikes me as more likely that things would end with the left being violently suppressed. Don’t wish for a major split in America, young James.

How do you imagine it would end with the left being violently suppressed?

Sorry Dark but as I see things, if Bush was put on trial we’d see an uprising from right against Obama’s government which I just can’t see them winning since “the left” would have the army on their side….

What situation do you see coming Dark?

I don’t doubt that you’re right, maybe I could be wrong and that the pain Bush’s trial would create wouldn’t be worth the results, and that the eyes history will give W what is coming to him even if a trial can’t, but still I would like to understand your thought process better Dark….

304 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:18:22pm

I don’t recall electing the justices in the Hague to be the arbiters of government morality, and I’m not feeding my former president to those Europeans. (They’ve been yearning to tear him for years.)

305 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:18:45pm

re: #290 ProLifeLiberal

Know anything more on what is going on at the Powell St. station of BART? You’re name says San Francisco, so I’m guessing you may know more than we do.

I don’t live in the City any more, but in the East Bay. I go through the Powell Street station several times a month, but right now I don’t know anything more than what I saw above. Not seeing anything on the news about it.

306 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:18:58pm

re: #304 Max D. Reinhardt

I don’t recall electing the justices in the Hague to be the arbiters of government morality, and I’m not feeding my former president to those Europeans. (They’ve been yearning to tear him for years.)

Thank you. I agree.
They’d soon be trying every President as soon as he left office.

307 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:19:17pm

re: #293 wozzablog

if they made 10,000 extra border guard available somebody would still say that it isn’t enough.

we need more physical barriers, more surveillance, and more manpower…setting up a situation where illegals kill themselves trying to get here, and also allowing vast corridors for human traffickers to operate is flat out immoral

308 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:19:45pm

re: #304 Max D. Reinhardt

I don’t recall electing the justices in the Hague to be the arbiters of government morality, and I’m not feeding my former president to those Europeans. (They’ve been yearning to tear him for years.)

I’d be fine with having Bush be tried by an American court as well honestly.

So yeah….

309 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:20:07pm

re: #304 Max D. Reinhardt

I don’t recall electing the justices in the Hague to be the arbiters of government morality, and I’m not feeding my former president to those Europeans. (They’ve been yearning to tear him for years.)

Serbs don’t remember electing them too.

310 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:20:11pm

re: #293 wozzablog

if they made 10,000 extra border guard available somebody would still say that it isn’t enough.

Obama deployed 1,200, and got basically no credit for it.

311 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:20:25pm

re: #300 SanFranciscoZionist

We do try. We try all the time. The current administration has made several sensible and proactive moves toward trying more.

Including a pretty major security agreement being worked on right now.

312 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:20:36pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

Hopefully, this can be the start of the removal of the Paulians from the GOP. It’s something the party badly needs.

The Paulians are the least of the GOP’s worries. The religious nutbars are a much bigger problem.

313 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:20:50pm

re: #296 albusteve

you need percentages…okay, I’d settle for 80-90% success rate at deterring illegals, relatively speaking of course

You got some ideas, send them in.

314 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:21:38pm

re: #309 Sergey Romanov

Serbs don’t remember electing them too.

It is intellectually dishonest to compare Bush’s actions to those of Karadzic or Milosevic.

315 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:21:57pm

re: #310 SanFranciscoZionist

Obama deployed 1,200, and got basically no credit for it.

There are people on the right who will give him no credit for anything. Simples.

316 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:22:08pm

re: #314 Max D. Reinhardt

It is intellectually dishonest to compare Bush’s actions to those of Karadzic or Milosevic.

And I didn’t.

317 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:22:10pm

re: #294 SanFranciscoZionist

You know, sometimes administrations, like children, benefit from ‘that’s better’, rather than ‘that’s not perfect yet’.

yes, administrations benefit, our citizens do not….the issue is totally politicized and I think that’s wrong….some people here harp about nobody being above the law, yes, the rule of law…except when they disagree with the law…I just sit back and chuckle at the disconnect

318 SpaceJesus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:22:51pm

Oh please run Ron Paul as the GOP nomination in 2012, please please please

319 SpaceJesus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:23:11pm

if there are any conservatives left on lgf, please see my 318

320 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:23:14pm

re: #318 SpaceJesus

Oh please run Ron Paul as the GOP nomination in 2012, please please please

But if he gets it than obviously Sarah Palin doesn’t!

321 SpaceJesus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:23:40pm

re: #320 jamesfirecat


no no no, she can still be VP. comedy can be salvaged.

322 laZardo  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:24:05pm

re: #318 SpaceJesus

Oh please run Ron Paul as the GOP nomination in 2012, please please please

He’d get Anonymous’ vote, that’s for sure.

323 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:24:14pm

re: #321 SpaceJesus

no no no, she can still be VP. comedy can be salvaged.

But satire is still dead.

324 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:24:42pm

re: #310 SanFranciscoZionist

Obama deployed 1,200, and got basically no credit for it.

1200 agents is a drop in the bucket and just like his 30k troops into Afghanistan last summer, it’s a political move that has nothing to do with securing the border, or winning the fight in Afghanistan…if BO actually believes that it does, then he is more ignorant than I previously thought….it’s all fluff and people are dying

325 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:25:42pm

re: #315 wozzablog

There are people on the right who will give him no credit for anything. Simples.

Like the security agreement with Canada that is being negotiated right now. It’s major. I’ve posted about it a couple of times and it’s just basically ignored. Hell the talking heads on news ignored even talking about it when they showed the bloody press conference where the Pres. talked about it.

326 laZardo  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:26:26pm

re: #325 Jadespring

Like the security agreement with Canada that is being negotiated right now. It’s major. I’ve posted about it a couple of times and it’s just basically ignored. Hell the talking heads on news ignored even talking about it when they showed the bloody press conference where the Pres. talked about it.

Thousands of miles of unsecured borders. But you know, that’s just not as important…

/

327 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:26:58pm

re: #314 Max D. Reinhardt

It is intellectually dishonest to compare Bush’s actions to those of Karadzic or Milosevic.

why “intellectually dishonest”?

328 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:27:02pm

re: #240 jamesfirecat

The American people survived seeing Nixon quit because he knew he had no chance.

I don’t care how ugly it gets, the truth is worth finding out…

If it shattered Americas sense that we can do no wrong, maybe that is a good thing…

Not in this case, no.

Much as I would have loved to see both Bush and Cheney tossed out for gross incompetence over the botched Iraq War, they’re out of office now. Putting them on trial after the fact would just cause more problems than it’s worth. It’s also why the Dems never took any of the far left’s calls for impeachment seriously.

It’s over and done. No use in digging up that dead horse. Let it rest.

329 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:27:12pm

re: #326 laZardo

Thousands of miles of unsecured borders. But you know, that’s just not as important…

/

It sure looks that way to me from where I sit.

330 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:27:19pm

re: #303 jamesfirecat

How do you imagine it would end with the left being violently suppressed?

Sorry Dark but as I see things, if Bush was put on trial we’d see an uprising from right against Obama’s government which I just can’t see them winning since “the left” would have the army on their side

What situation do you see coming Dark?

I don’t doubt that you’re right, maybe I could be wrong and that the pain Bush’s trial would create wouldn’t be worth the results, and that the eyes history will give W what is coming to him even if a trial can’t, but still I would like to understand your thought process better Dark…

James, given the Army’s involvement in the War on Terror, i don’t think you can be sure they would back the government. Because the next demand would be for the trials of generals. Thus the military might decide to protect itself and turn on the government.

331 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:27:34pm

re: #304 Max D. Reinhardt

I don’t recall electing the justices in the Hague to be the arbiters of government morality, and I’m not feeding my former president to those Europeans. (They’ve been yearning to tear him for years.)

re: #306 reine.de.tout

Thank you. I agree.
They’d soon be trying every President as soon as he left office.

I’d have to agree with this, with conditions. If President Bush, Vice President Cheney, or any of their staff were confronted with solid, watertight evidence of breaking the law in an American court, I could accept that. I wouldn’t like it, because I think it might cause a crisis of conscience in the American body politic, worse that Nixon and Watergate, but the law is the law and no one, even the POTUS or VPOTUS should be above it.

However, I would be very uneasy about the POTUS, any POTUS, being made to stand trial at the Hague or anywhere else overseas…it’s just bad news, IMO.

332 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:27:41pm

re: #313 SanFranciscoZionist

You got some ideas, send them in.

the feds know how to do it…it’s not the epic, undoable task you make it out to be

333 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:28:03pm

re: #324 albusteve

1200 agents is a drop in the bucket and just like his 30k troops into Afghanistan last summer, it’s a political move that has nothing to do with securing the border, or winning the fight in Afghanistan…if BO actually believes that it does, then he is more ignorant than I previously thought…it’s all fluff and people are dying

30,000 was pretty much all the army could stand to deploy at the time.

I have a dear friend who’s brother went many tours in Iraq and has now done several more in Afghanistan with no end in sight. There is not limitless man power.
The draw down in Iraq will give some units time to recoup - but most are bieng ploughed straight into afghanistan now.

334 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:28:12pm

re: #314 Max D. Reinhardt

It is intellectually dishonest to compare Bush’s actions to those of Karadzic or Milosevic.

Your “argument” wasn’t about the actions but about whether or not you “elected” the judges as something or other. If electing the judges were a prerequisite, no war criminal would ever go punished.

Since the argument was about this, and not about comparing war crimes of some personages to war crimes of others, it is you who is being intellectually dishonest here.

335 BishopX  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:28:18pm

re: #296 albusteve

you need percentages…okay, I’d settle for 80-90% success rate at deterring illegals, relatively speaking of course

There are 6 billion people on earth (a little more but we can safely ignore the US population and round down). Lets assume that 1 out of every 100 people wants to come to the US, that’s probably a little high for the developed world and extremely low for the third world. So that’s sixty million potential immigrants. We let 750,000 in per year. Another 500,000 get enter illegally, 450,000 overstay visas and 250-500,000 get in though border crossing cards. That’s around 1.5 million new illegal immigrants per year, which would be 97.5% percent success rate.

336 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:29:18pm

re: #306 reine.de.tout

Thank you. I agree.
They’d soon be trying every President as soon as he left office.

I don’t like the United States setting ourselves up as the sole arbiters of law and morality.

That said, I don’t trust anyone else to do the job.

337 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:29:45pm

re: #307 albusteve

we need more physical barriers, more surveillance, and more manpower…setting up a situation where illegals kill themselves trying to get here, and also allowing vast corridors for human traffickers to operate is flat out immoral

Tend to agree. Paying for all of that is gonna be a bitch.

338 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:30:28pm

re: #333 wozzablog

I have a friend who did multiple tours in Afghanistan. Poor guy’s not even 30 and he’s already dealing with some heavy PTSD. I wouldn’t wish what he’s going through on anyone.

339 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:30:57pm

I cannot believe what is being discussed here. Trying an American President, an armed uprising, a military takeover? This is LGF. We ground our thoughts in reality.

Save this for a sci-fi novel draft. It doesn’t belong here.

340 Bubblehead II  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:31:06pm

Evening Lizards. Mind if I ask what type of fur ball I just dropped into tonight?

341 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:31:21pm

i don’t recall electing an american president to be an arbiter of how iraq should govern itself

342 BishopX  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:31:25pm

re: #337 SanFranciscoZionist

Wouldn’t it just be easier to raise the caps? Maybe establish a special pool of green cards for citizens of neighboring countries?

343 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:31:26pm

re: #338 Lidane

I have a friend who did multiple tours in Afghanistan. Poor guy’s not even 30 and he’s already dealing with some heavy PTSD. I wouldn’t wish what he’s going through on anyone.

Same with my galapals bro.

344 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:32:01pm

re: #332 albusteve

the feds know how to do it…it’s not the epic, undoable task you make it out to be

I think it is, clearly, and I tend to emphasize that, because there’s a perfectionist streak that takes over when people are talking about this.

345 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:32:05pm

re: #333 wozzablog

30,000 was pretty much all the army could stand to deploy at the time.

I have a dear friend who’s brother went many tours in Iraq and has now done several more in Afghanistan with no end in sight. There is not limitless man power.
The draw down in Iraq will give some units time to recoup - but most are bieng ploughed straight into afghanistan now.

too little too late….Afghanistan is a death trap and BO had his window to pull out last year…he choked and sent a measly 30k troops to make 30k more targets

346 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:32:08pm

re: #330 Dark_Falcon

James, given the Army’s involvement in the War on Terror, i don’t think you can be sure they would back the government. Because the next demand would be for the trials of generals. Thus the military might decide to protect itself and turn on the government.

Honestly I’d like to think that if the generals told the army that it needs to oust the duly elected government to protect themselves, then the men on the ground would refuse to obey that order.

The Army is not the Generals, its the people with their boots on the ground, and the vast majority of the military’s soldiers had nothing to do with Guantanamo. I don’t see how the average soldier could be convinced to wage war against the American Government so easily…

That said, it’s over its done, the window when it could have reasonably been moved on has passed, and to do it now would just be petty and pathetic….

So yeah, lets move on, this hypothetical is getting us nowhere besides making a lot of people angry at one another.

347 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:32:26pm

re: #340 Bubblehead II

A weird one. I’m just watching, because I’m have much input of the current debate about US presidents and the Hague.

348 HappyWarrior  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:33:18pm

Got people i know from high school in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I guess that is why I was so outraged when I found out about Bachmann’s plans to cut from the VA. Our policymakers make the decision (And I am not questioning whether it’s right or wrong in this) to send young men and women to war. The very least we could do is help them when they get back. I for one was glad VFW raised a hellstorm over her plans.

349 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:33:27pm

re: #339 Max D. Reinhardt

I cannot believe what is being discussed here. Trying an American President, an armed uprising, a military takeover? This is LGF. We ground our thoughts in reality.

Save this for a sci-fi novel draft. It doesn’t belong here.

Quite Concur.

350 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:33:31pm

This is madness.

351 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:34:30pm

re: #307 albusteve

we need more physical barriers, more surveillance, and more manpower…setting up a situation where illegals kill themselves trying to get here, and also allowing vast corridors for human traffickers to operate is flat out immoral

Great. How do you realistically plan to pay for that?

352 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:34:46pm

re: #342 BishopX

Wouldn’t it just be easier to raise the caps? Maybe establish a special pool of green cards for citizens of neighboring countries?

Well, that’s something else—immigration policy and policing the border are closely linked, but not quite the same thing.

I definitely think we ought to make the citizenship process easier for folks coming from Mexico.

353 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:34:48pm

re: #345 albusteve

too little too late…Afghanistan is a death trap and BO had his window to pull out last year…he choked and sent a measly 30k troops to make 30k more targets

If the previous administration had drawn down in Iraq sooner (rather than sticking it out until after the election for political purposes) there would have been enough troops available to surge properly in Afghanistan. The main problem with the action in Afghanistan has always been Iraq.

You play with the hand you are dealt.

354 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:34:59pm

re: #349 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur.

too many cartoons, action movies and video games….the chickens have come home to roost

355 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:35:10pm

re: #339 Max D. Reinhardt

I cannot believe what is being discussed here. Trying an American President, an armed uprising, a military takeover? This is LGF. We ground our thoughts in reality.

Save this for a sci-fi novel draft. It doesn’t belong here.

There’s only a few people discussing it. Everyone else is ignoring it.

356 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:35:40pm

re: #339 Max D. Reinhardt

I cannot believe what is being discussed here. Trying an American President, an armed uprising, a military takeover? This is LGF. We ground our thoughts in reality.

Save this for a sci-fi novel draft. It doesn’t belong here.

////I’m in favor of reordering the justice system to get rid of trial by jury, instead lets let a judge oversee everything. On top of that, clearly we should see to it that that trials can only last for three days at most….

357 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:35:46pm

re: #350 Max D. Reinhardt

This is madness.

THIS…IS SPARTA!!!

/Sorry, I had to say it.

358 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:36:09pm

re: #352 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that’s something else—immigration policy and policing the border are closely linked, but not quite the same thing.

I definitely think we ought to make the citizenship process easier for folks coming from Mexico.

And green cards, work visas…all that stuff.

359 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:36:49pm

re: #350 Max D. Reinhardt

This is madness.

THIS IS SPARTA!!!!

360 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:36:55pm

re: #355 Jadespring

There’s only a few people discussing it. Everyone else is ignoring it.

Or, kicking it around idly.

361 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:37:37pm

re: #338 Lidane

I have a friend who did multiple tours in Afghanistan. Poor guy’s not even 30 and he’s already dealing with some heavy PTSD. I wouldn’t wish what he’s going through on anyone.

PTSD is no fun. For many if not most it never completely goes away either. Can get better but it’s there.

362 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:37:51pm

re: #307 albusteve

we need more physical barriers, more surveillance, and more manpower…setting up a situation where illegals kill themselves trying to get here, and also allowing vast corridors for human traffickers to operate is flat out immoral

this must be some of that smaller, less intrusive, and radically cheaper government that the gop is always talking about

363 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:38:15pm

re: #358 SanFranciscoZionist

And green cards, work visas…all that stuff.

Ick.

Don’t talk to me about those.

I have no chance of any of them and all i can hope for is that my girlfriend is transferred to Canada.

364 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:38:17pm

re: #350 Max D. Reinhardt

This is madness.

What the hell are you flipping out about? As far as I can tell, no one here was advocating Bush being frogmarched into court or the US military disobeying the civilian leadership.

We’re just discussing “what ifs”, nothing more…just brain droppings.

/chill, Leonidas…

365 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:38:39pm

re: #348 HappyWarrior

Got people i know from high school in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I guess that is why I was so outraged when I found out about Bachmann’s plans to cut from the VA. Our policymakers make the decision (And I am not questioning whether it’s right or wrong in this) to send young men and women to war. The very least we could do is help them when they get back. I for one was glad VFW raised a hellstorm over her plans.

Me too. My current event is at work is Military Health, and I’m learning about what PTSD and brain injury do to a person. Any proposals cut spending to help veterans suffering from such wounds will meet with my strongest opposition. If keeping a program like that means a tax increase, then that would one of very few times where I would favor raising taxes.

366 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:39:07pm

re: #351 Lidane

Great. How do you realistically plan to pay for that?

don’t know….how is the BO admin gonna pay for the 3-4 trillion in debt he laid on the voters?….I say let the feds take in private contractor bids for a few hundred miles of decent barriers before I’d wonder how it’s gonna be paid for….the feds will fuck up a wet dream, and the border is just another example

367 laZardo  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:39:37pm

re: #360 SanFranciscoZionist

Or, kicking it around idly.

Into pits of death.

368 BishopX  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:40:00pm

To me, all this stuff about trying a president is interesting stuff….The US doesn’t really have answer to what happens when a sitting president ignores the law as a policy. Prior to GWB I thought it wasn’t that big a deal, the last time it was a major issue was Jackson or Lincoln depending on who you ask. But between the wiretapping controversies, the torture and the signing statements…I’m not so sure now.

I think having the machinery in place for when the honor system fails is probably a good thing.

369 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:40:19pm

re: #339 Max D. Reinhardt

I cannot believe what is being discussed here. Trying an American President, an armed uprising, a military takeover? This is LGF. We ground our thoughts in reality.

Save this for a sci-fi novel draft. It doesn’t belong here.

could you do me a favor and tell that to the tea party, glen beck, the nra, and fox news?

370 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:40:37pm

re: #366 albusteve

don’t know…how is the BO admin gonna pay for the 3-4 trillion in debt he laid on the voters?…I say let the feds take in private contractor bids for a few hundred miles of decent barriers before I’d wonder how it’s gonna be paid for…the feds will fuck up a wet dream, and the border is just another example

*he* wanted to pay for it by asking rich people to pay more tax.

371 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:41:15pm

re: #363 wozzablog

Ick.

Don’t talk to me about those.

I have no chance of any of them and all i can hope for is that my girlfriend is transferred to Canada.

and i don’t even live in canada……..(yet)

372 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:41:19pm

re: #364 talon_262

We’re just discussing “what ifs”, nothing more…just brain droppings.

And these “what ifs” are completely insane and frightening.

373 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:41:54pm

re: #362 engineer dog

this must be some of that smaller, less intrusive, and radically cheaper government that the gop is always talking about

fail….one has nothing to do with the other, but rather than discuss it you snark….do you have a solution for the bodies scattered across the desert?…to you it’s just politics?

374 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:43:02pm

re: #370 wozzablog

*he* wanted to pay for it by asking rich people to pay more tax.

and actually - the super mega rich - (buffet, gates, soros) - said they would………. the republicans said they wouldn’t.

in other news:
[Link: www.theonion.com…]

375 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:43:03pm

re: #372 Max D. Reinhardt

And these “what ifs” are completely insane and frightening.

Military insurrection is completely insane and frightening…

But I also find the idea that we should look the other way or not prosecute when the president breaks the law insane and frightening as well….

376 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:43:37pm

re: #366 albusteve

don’t know…how is the BO admin gonna pay for the 3-4 trillion in debt he laid on the voters?.

You mean the debt that landed on his head due to the financial meltdown that happened before he took office? He could get rich people to pay for their own malfeasance by getting them to pay taxes, but that tends to go nowhere fast, since people want government to do everything, but don’t want to pay for it.

377 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:43:40pm

re: #371 wozzablog

and i don’t even live in canada…(yet)

Well here’s hoping you make it over. It’s great here. Well except for having a PM who describes what happened in Egypt as a tube of toothpaste.

378 jaunte  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:44:45pm

tweet:

Emergency_In_SF
HAZARDOUS MATERIAL (update): Haz Mat Team now on scene (Powell Bart ) trying to identify substance that now is sending 8 ppl to hospital.
[Link: twitter.com…]
379 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:44:47pm

re: #362 engineer dog

this must be some of that smaller, less intrusive, and radically cheaper government that the gop is always talking about

It’s a government focused solely on killing brown people who speak with funny accents. Of course it’s smaller and less intrusive.

380 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:45:05pm

re: #375 jamesfirecat

Military insurrection is completely insane and frightening…

But I also find the idea that we should look the other way or not prosecute when the president breaks the law insane and frightening as well…

And arrogant as hell too. Someone is above law simply because he is an American President? ONOZ, is nothing sacred?!

381 Max  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:45:26pm

re: #375 jamesfirecat

But I also find the idea that we should look the other way or not prosecute when the president breaks the law insane and frightening as well…

I really should get back to work on that soapbox and that horse stable.

Goodnight, Lizards!

382 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:45:42pm

re: #311 Jadespring

Including a pretty major security agreement being worked on right now.

Democrats getting stuff done.

383 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:45:57pm

re: #377 Jadespring

Well here’s hoping you make it over. It’s great here. Well except for having a PM who describes what happened in Egypt as a tube of toothpaste.

It’s easier for me to move to canada from the Uk and start working than it is to the US - if i could find a job. And Canada is closer to my GF’s elederly parents than the UK.

It’s work out - we’d both lose our immediate support networks, but we’d be in the sameplace and working without her being 18hrs from her parents.

384 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:46:14pm

re: #379 Lidane

It’s a government focused solely on killing brown people who speak with funny accents. Of course it’s smaller and less intrusive.

Its not focused solely on that… it is also extremely interested in the making sure that women don’t get abortions!

385 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:46:42pm

re: #383 wozzablog

It’s easier for me to move to canada from the Uk and start working than it is to the US - if i could find a job. And Canada is closer to my GF’s elederly parents than the UK.

It’s work out - we’d both lose our immediate support networks, but we’d be in the sameplace and working without her being 18hrs from her parents.

Do you have any idea where you’d be yet?

386 BishopX  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:46:48pm

re: #381 Max D. Reinhardt

Have a good one.

387 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:46:55pm

re: #366 albusteve

don’t know…how is the BO admin gonna pay for the 3-4 trillion in debt he laid on the voters?

back in the 80s i spent a lot of time asking the same question about the reagan debt, but republicans told me that “reagan proved that deficits don’t matter”

and if you don’t think the reagan debt was comparable, note how the percentage of the federal budget devoted to interest went up from 6% to 10% for a while because of the 80s

thw fact is, the debt has never been paid down, and the american government gets the best interest rate in the world

388 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:47:11pm

re: #376 Lidane

You mean the debt that landed on his head due to the financial meltdown that happened before he took office? He could get rich people to pay for their own malfeasance by getting them to pay taxes, but that tends to go nowhere fast, since people want government to do everything, but don’t want to pay for it.

no, I mean the debt he needelessly quadrupled

389 Single-handed sailor  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:47:11pm

re: #378 jaunte

tweet:

Hmmm, still hasn’t hit local news iphone apps yet.

390 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:47:27pm

To sugar the pill: I’d love my former president to be tried too. Why doesn’t everybody? //

391 Bubblehead II  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:47:46pm

re: #347 ProLifeLiberal

A weird one. I’m just watching, because I’m have much input of the current debate about US presidents and the Hague.

In other words, A usual day at LGF. (at least) 3 threads to go thru, plus the pages

Information Ovrerload. ………………………………………………..

392 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:47:59pm

re: #388 albusteve

no, I mean the debt he needelessly quadrupled

Because Republicans did not want to tax the rich?

393 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:48:25pm

re: #373 albusteve

fail…one has nothing to do with the other, but rather than discuss it you snark…do you have a solution for the bodies scattered across the desert?…to you it’s just politics?

not an answer

it’s intrusive and very expensive government and you know it

394 Single-handed sailor  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:48:28pm

Ah found it on KTVU 4 people pepper sprayed at Powell street BART station.

395 jaunte  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:48:50pm

re: #389 mracb

One tweeter thinks it’s a pr stunt:

Lazybastid Jeff Lester
The whole hazardous material thing is also interestingly timed since Contagion is filming downtown in SF, by the way.
1 hour ago Favorite Retweet Reply
396 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:48:51pm

re: #388 albusteve

no, I mean the debt he needelessly quadrupled

30 million americans didn’t need health insurance?

And it wasn’t him that quadrupled it - the senate minority refused to allow bills to the floor for votes that would have payed for a big swathe of it.

397 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:49:08pm

re: #387 engineer dog

back in the 80s i spent a lot of time asking the same question about the reagan debt, but republicans told me that “reagan proved that deficits don’t matter”

and if you don’t think the reagan debt was comparable, note how the percentage of the federal budget devoted to interest went up from 6% to 10% for a while because of the 80s

thw fact is, the debt has never been paid down, and the american government gets the best interest rate in the world

so what’s the big fuss all about then?…there is simply no limit, I got it now

398 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:51:31pm

re: #372 Max D. Reinhardt

And you noticed that those topics petered out and didn’t gain any real traction or support in the room, right? This ain’t Free Republic, Stormfront, or any of the cesspools where shit like this has a real audience. For us, it’s a fleeting thought exercise…for the cesspools, it’s a way of life.

Like I said, chill and all will be groovy…

399 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:51:57pm

re: #385 Jadespring

Do you have any idea where you’d be yet?

Oh, Ottawa.

400 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:53:21pm

re: #399 wozzablog

Oh, Ottawa.

Oh cool. I like Ottawa. It’s a pretty city. It gets cold in the winter though. :)

401 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:54:13pm

*sigh*

It seems the GOP have their priorities in order again:

Killing Big Bird: GOP budget would end PBS / NPR funding

402 BishopX  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:55:07pm

re: #388 albusteve

no, I mean the debt he needelessly quadrupled

you’re just plain wrong about this. The US debt (total money owed) is currently around 14 trillion. The deficit (the difference between budgeted spending and projected income) was 1.9 trillion in FY09 and 1.7 trillion in FY10.

The US has been running a deficit of approx. 500 billion since FY03, so if you compare Obama’s deficit to Bush’s average deficit (ignoring the fact that Bush ran a 1 trillion deficit in FY08) then Obama would have tripled the deficit.

But under no circumstances did Obama quadruple the debt. That’s pure wingnut talk.

403 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:55:33pm

re: #400 Jadespring

Oh cool. I like Ottawa. It’s a pretty city. It gets cold in the winter though. :)

Cold i can deal with. Excess heat i can’t - kind of one of the reasons why TX may not quite be my preferred option of settling down (i don’t tan, i bake and could be peeled for chips).

404 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:56:33pm

re: #401 Lidane

*sigh*

It seems the GOP have their priorities in order again:

Killing Big Bird: GOP budget would end PBS / NPR funding

Death Panels for Elmo.

We got em.

405 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:56:51pm

re: #336 SanFranciscoZionist

I don’t like the United States setting ourselves up as the sole arbiters of law and morality.

That said, I don’t trust anyone else to do the job.

The people of this nation the arbiters of our law and morality. We do this through elections.

We open that door to having our elected officials actions tried in an outside court - in quick order every President would have his trial ready to go as soon as he left office.

406 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:56:52pm

re: #388 albusteve

no, I mean the debt he needelessly quadrupled

You need to work on your math.

It was over 11T when he took office; it’s due to hit 14T in a few months. That’s not quadrupled, not even by Conservative Math.

407 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:57:00pm

re: #403 wozzablog

Cold i can deal with. Excess heat i can’t - kind of one of the reasons why TX may not quite be my preferred option of settling down (i don’t tan, i bake and could be peeled for chips).

Well it can and does get hot and humid in the summer but I don’t think it’s Texas type hot.

408 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:57:03pm

re: #401 Lidane

*sigh*

It seems the GOP have their priorities in order again:

Killing Big Bird: GOP budget would end PBS / NPR funding

No big bird won’t fly
Or sing
Because we broke
His left wing…


Next thing you know they’re gonna be asking to see the Swedish Chef’s green card….

409 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:57:11pm

re: #402 BishopX

you’re just plain wrong about this. The US debt (total money owed) is currently around 14 trillion. The deficit (the difference between budgeted spending and projected income) was 1.9 trillion in FY09 and 1.7 trillion in FY10.

The US has been running a deficit of approx. 500 billion since FY03, so if you compare Obama’s deficit to Bush’s average deficit (ignoring the fact that Bush ran a 1 trillion deficit in FY08) then Obama would have tripled the deficit.

But under no circumstances did Obama quadruple the debt. That’s pure wingnut talk.

And - Obama reduced the deficit in his first budget.

And - of the last 6 Presidents all the Democrats out perform Republicans in debt growth slowing/reduction haste.

410 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:58:08pm

re: #331 talon_262

re: #306 reine.de.tout

I’d have to agree with this, with conditions. If President Bush, Vice President Cheney, or any of their staff were confronted with solid, watertight evidence of breaking the law in an American court, I could accept that. I wouldn’t like it, because I think it might cause a crisis of conscience in the American body politic, worse that Nixon and Watergate, but the law is the law and no one, even the POTUS or VPOTUS should be above it.

However, I would be very uneasy about the POTUS, any POTUS, being made to stand trial at the Hague or anywhere else overseas…it’s just bad news, IMO.

I have no disagreement with anything you said.

It’s the whole having our President subject to the whims of the Hague. We elect our President. That puts ALL OF US on trial.

411 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:58:39pm

re: #409 wozzablog

And - Obama reduced the deficit in his first budget.

And - of the last 6 Presidents all the Democrats out perform Republicans in debt growth slowing/reduction haste.

Here it is In chart form…

412 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:59:11pm

re: #407 Jadespring

Well it can and does get hot and humid in the summer but I don’t think it’s Texas type hot.

IN San Antone last year it was 104f

413 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:59:21pm

re: #380 Sergey Romanov

And arrogant as hell too. Someone is above law simply because he is an American President? ONOZ, is nothing sacred?!

Quite honestly, I’d prefer not to go first in the procession of sending my leaders to the Hague. If Bush is liable, who else among the elected heads of the nations of the world has to step up? No one helped? No one supplied a plane? No one was complicit?

I’ve got a feeling this whole thing will seem less attractive to many people once we figure out who goes second if poor ol’ George W. is first.

414 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:59:38pm

re: #411 jamesfirecat

Here it is In chart form…

I love that chart. I would marry it and have it’s babies.

415 albusteve  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:59:45pm

re: #406 sagehen

You need to work on your math.

It was over 11T when he took office; it’s due to hit 14T in a few months. That’s not quadrupled, not even by Conservative Math.

I meant the 3-4 trillion he added to the existing debt….my bad

416 jaunte  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:00:27pm

From mona eltahawy: That’s a wrap!

417 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:00:45pm

“bodies scattered arcross there: #397 albusteve

so what’s the big fuss all about then?…there is simply no limit, I got it now

god forbid people making half a mil per year should have to pony up a few extra dollars to pay for what we need

apparantly that would be worse than borrowing

and where did bush get the trillion we spent on iraq and afghanistan?

418 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:01:01pm

re: #415 albusteve

I meant the 3-4 trillion he added to the existing debt…my bad

It wasn’t *him*.

It’s not his fault if the senate likes his plans but doesn’t want to fund them without resorting to debt. He can’t do a helluva lot about that.

419 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:01:36pm

re: #411 jamesfirecat

Here it is In chart form…

However, it the responsibility of Congress to raise money and approve it’s expenditure. If one redrew that chart with who was in majority in Congress one would find much less correlation to Party.

420 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:01:48pm

lol

acarvin Andy Carvin

RT @salmaeldaly: Today my American friend was yelling at her BF saying maybe I should go to Egypt & find a man who makes real things happen.

421 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:02:09pm

re: #414 wozzablog

I love that chart. I would marry it and have it’s babies.

Maybe you and Doctor Cox can have a double wedding where he gets married to his favorite moment….

422 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:02:42pm

re: #408 jamesfirecat

No big bird won’t fly
Or sing
Because we broke
His left wing…

Next thing you know they’re gonna be asking to see the Swedish Chef’s green card…

Fine. We’re in serious trouble-money, and I do think PBS funding should be on the ‘cut’ list.

423 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:02:46pm

re: #412 wozzablog

IN San Antone last year it was 104f

Uh well last summer it got to 108 F. Broke a record. Usually though it’s high 80’s.

424 Querent  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:03:07pm

re: #356 jamesfirecat

///I’m in favor of reordering the justice system to get rid of trial by jury, instead lets let a judge oversee everything. On top of that, clearly we should see to it that that trials can only last for three days at most…

And death penalty for parking violations. Hey, as long as we’re throwing around the H2SO4 balloons in here…

(oops. timer. gotta go check on that fresh batch of nutbars…)

425 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:03:37pm
426 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:03:38pm

re: #422 Dark_Falcon

Fine. We’re in serious trouble-money, and I do think PBS funding should be on the ‘cut’ list.

Farm subsidies. Nevah, no. Elmo. Priorities, folks.

427 jaunte  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:04:32pm

Leroy Grannis and a moment of zen: [Link: www.surfermag.com…]

428 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:04:33pm

re: #420 Stanley Sea

One of the most awesome tweets ever. Though the women there are certainly attractive in my eyes for holding out in the protests for more than two weeks. Palin has nothing on them.

429 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:04:33pm

re: #425 Lidane

Hehehe:

[Link: news.icanhascheezburger.com…]

LOL

430 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:04:38pm

re: #422 Dark_Falcon

Fine. We’re in serious trouble-money, and I do think PBS funding should be on the ‘cut’ list.

PBS funding is chump change compared to what it offers in value.

If you really want to cut serious money, aim higher, like cutting some of the waste and graft in the defense budget.

431 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:05:14pm

re: #417 engineer dog

“bodies scattered arcross the

god forbid people making half a mil per year should have to pony up a few extra dollars to pay for what we need

apparantly that would be worse than borrowing

and where did bush get the trillion we spent on iraq and afghanistan?

He kept the wars off the books. Special republican presidential cyphering.

432 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:05:28pm

re: #430 Lidane

PBS funding is chump change compared to what it offers in value.

If you really want to cut serious money, aim higher, like cutting some of the waste and graft in the defense budget.

SACRED COW!!!

433 calochortus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:05:31pm

re: #378 jaunte

tweet:

I don’t see where anyone else has posted, the BART incident was pepper spray. Forgive me if I’m redundant.

434 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:05:57pm

re: #423 Jadespring

Uh well last summer it got to 108 F. Broke a record. Usually though it’s high 80’s.

Ouch.

Mind you - london’s last couple of summers have been horrobly hot by our standards.

97f last year in the shade - well over a 100 in the sun.

435 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:06:00pm

re: #431 prairiefire

He kept the wars off the books. Special republican presidential cyphering.

HE KEPT THE WARS OFF THE BOOKS.

Oh the ignorance of us.

436 laZardo  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:06:27pm

re: #433 calochortus

Oh, so it wasn’t a biological attack at a BART station?

437 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:06:54pm

re: #430 Lidane

PBS funding is chump change compared to what it offers in value.

If you really want to cut serious money, aim higher, like cutting some of the waste and graft in the defense budget.

Cutting that would be much harder. I’m all for it, but the problem is that the graft goes to pay for congressional campaigns.

438 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:06:55pm

re: #415 albusteve

I meant the 3-4 trillion he added to the existing debt…my bad

More than one trillion of that was from Bush’s final budget (there was a 1.3T deficit the day Obama walked in the door, before he brought anything to Congress).

The economic meltdown also mean revenue was way, way down for 09 and 10.

Bush, during supposedly good times, all his partisans crowing about how grand the economy was doing, having walked into office with a surplus waiting on his desk… added 5.5T to the debt during his time.

Let’s keep a little perspective.

439 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:07:06pm

re: #436 laZardo

Oh, so it wasn’t a biological attack at a BART station?

No Muslim Brotherhood involved. As of yet.

440 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:07:07pm

re: #413 SanFranciscoZionist

You got somewhat of a point there. It wouldn’t be completely fair if Bush&Co were the only ones held responsible for torture if they had a helping hand or two. On the other hand, we don’t know that they did, and in any case they are the only ones to basically confess. I also understand the feelings involved, but personally when it comes to torture, it doesn’t matter to me who or what. If it turned out that Obama authorized something like that, I would call for his head. It’s bad enough that he is covering it up, though he is in a bind of course.

441 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:07:26pm

re: #433 calochortus

Wow, talk about epic over-reaction.

442 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:07:55pm

re: #437 Dark_Falcon

Cutting that would be much harder. I’m all for it, but the problem is that the graft goes to pay for congressional campaigns.

And that’s the end of the story. (farm subsidies)

443 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:08:25pm

re: #433 calochortus

I don’t see where anyone else has posted, the BART incident was pepper spray. Forgive me if I’m redundant.

Thanks!

444 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:08:46pm

re: #434 wozzablog

Ouch.

Mind you - london’s last couple of summers have been horrobly hot by our standards.

97f last year in the shade - well over a 100 in the sun.

Well summers are generally getting hotter and hotter around here. It seems to be a trend.

Hmm I wonder why that is…..

445 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:08:57pm

Anyways, hep cats and kittens.

Stay groovy.

I’m signing out for the night.

446 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:09:15pm

re: #430 Lidane

If you think the 20 or 30 million dollars is “chump change”, then what about $500,000?

That’s the amount an auditor, whom the Republicans brought in for testimony last week on the spending habits of certain agencies, including the NSF, figured out that the NSF was spending on coffee and donuts annually at conferences.

It was declared “waste” because those on travel budgets to NSF meetings already have their meals reimbursed (which is pretty standard in travel accounts.)

It’s all part of the GOP plan to paint scientists as wasteful spending, so they can feel better about cutting billions of dollars, as proposed.

447 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:09:21pm

re: #437 Dark_Falcon

Cutting that would be much harder. I’m all for it, but the problem is that the graft goes to pay for congressional campaigns.

Not my problem. Let them bootstrap their way through life like they want the rest of us to do. =P

Besides, the brass would love to be able to kill projects they know are wasteful, inefficient, outdated, or useless and which just line some congressman’s pockets. I say let them.

448 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:09:49pm

re: #422 Dark_Falcon

Fine. We’re in serious trouble-money, and I do think PBS funding should be on the ‘cut’ list.

Why exactly Dark?

449 Interesting Times  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:10:01pm

re: #442 Stanley Sea

And that’s the end of the story. (farm subsidies)

Watch the video I linked to last night. Illuminating to say the least. GOP cost-cutting = Spending on me, but not on thee.

450 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:10:04pm

re: #439 Stanley Sea

No Muslim Brotherhood involved. As of yet.

Nah, they’re too busy debriefing after CPAC.

451 calochortus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:10:13pm

re: #436 laZardo

Oh, so it wasn’t a biological attack at a BART station?

No, it was a chemical attack. /
Who used the pepper spray and why is evidently a mystery.

452 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:10:41pm

re: #439 Stanley Sea

No Muslim Brotherhood involved. As of yet.

That’s because they’re all at CPAC and infiltrating ur GOP.

453 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:11:28pm

re: #450 Jadespring

Nah, they’re too busy debriefing after CPAC.

Now, here’s my thing. I feel that you should either be able to fret about GOProud seducing your son over wine and nibbles at CPAC, or worry that the Muslim Brotherhood has infiltrated. Fretting about both seems self-indulgent to me.

454 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:11:31pm

re: #449 publicityStunted

Watch the video I linked to last night. Illuminating to say the least. GOP cost-cutting = Spending on me, but not on thee.

Oh gah. Saved for tomorrow. Tonight is happy time.

455 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:11:32pm

re: #430 Lidane

PBS funding is chump change compared to what it offers in value.

If you really want to cut serious money, aim higher, like cutting some of the waste and graft in the defense budget.

Remember, government never created any jobs. Only private industry creates jobs. Unless it’s military spending, in which case we can’t cut back because OMG SO MANY JOBS WILL BE LOST!!!

456 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:12:01pm

re: #451 calochortus

No, it was a chemical attack. /
Who used the pepper spray and why is evidently a mystery.

Some pissed off lady. My bet.

457 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:12:50pm

re: #436 laZardo

Oh, so it wasn’t a biological attack at a BART station?

pretty sure pepper is biological.

458 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:13:23pm

What is a crack about the GOP cuts is all the unemployed it’s going to create.

JOBS! JOBS!

459 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:13:36pm

i think i’ll put an electrified fence around my property with gun turrets staffed by security guards, then complain that our family budget is outta control and demand that the kids stop spending money going to the movies

460 bratwurst  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:13:50pm

re: #458 Stanley Sea

What is a crack about the GOP cuts is all the unemployed it’s going to create.

JOBS! JOBS!

[Link: whenarethejobs.com…]

461 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:14:34pm

re: #457 sagehen

pretty sure pepper is biological.

I just looked. It’s on the chemical list.

462 calochortus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:14:54pm

re: #456 Stanley Sea

Or kids.

re: #457 sagehen

Its a chemical weapon AND a biological one!

463 Querent  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:15:52pm

re: #462 calochortus

Or kids.

re: #457 sagehen

Its a chemical weapon AND a biological one!

It’s a floor wax AND a dessert topping!

464 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:16:17pm

re: #460 bratwurst

[Link: whenarethejobs.com…]

Idiot fail. I cannot believe they do not account for the unemployment affect from their cuts.

465 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:16:20pm

re: #447 Lidane

Not my problem. Let them bootstrap their way through life like they want the rest of us to do. =P

Besides, the brass would love to be able to kill projects they know are wasteful, inefficient, outdated, or useless and which just line some congressman’s pockets. I say let them.

I agree. But getting Congress to agree would be very hard.

466 calochortus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:16:22pm

re: #461 Jadespring

I suspect they make it synthetically.

467 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:16:44pm

re: #462 calochortus

Or kids.

re: #457 sagehen

Its a chemical weapon AND a biological one!

Kids never count. Unless the zygote type.

468 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:16:50pm

re: #461 Jadespring

I just looked. It’s on the chemical list.

A lachrymatory agent like tear gas.


Cool I learned a new word. :)

469 calochortus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:17:16pm

re: #467 Stanley Sea

Zygotes with pepper spray?!

470 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:17:39pm

re: #469 calochortus

Zygotes with pepper spray?!

Bing!

471 Interesting Times  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:18:20pm

re: #454 Stanley Sea

Oh gah. Saved for tomorrow. Tonight is happy time.

No problem. It’s only a two-min ABC World News report. I actually had to pick my jaw up off the floor after watching it - the MSM, actually pointing out republican hypocrisy on this issue?? Flabbergasting :) And the look on Boehner’s face is priceless as always :P

472 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:18:44pm

re: #469 calochortus

Zygotes with pepper spray?!

They’re defending themselves from abortions.

473 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:19:29pm

re: #472 sagehen

They’re defending themselves from abortions.

Oh that poor poor womb.

474 BishopX  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:19:34pm

re: #469 calochortus

They’re not terrorists, they’re fetal fighters!

475 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:20:33pm

re: #473 Stanley Sea

Oh that poor poor womb.

Womb Wars of the 21st Century!

Makes kind of a neat movie title, no?

476 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:21:20pm

re: #475 freetoken

Womb Wars of the 21st Century!

Makes kind of a neat movie title, no?

My mind is reeling from my post. Oh MY

477 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:22:35pm

re: #475 freetoken

Womb Wars of the 21st Century!

Makes kind of a neat movie title, no?

No.

478 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:23:12pm

re: #477 Dark_Falcon

No.

Dude, unfortunately we are living this movie.

Again.

479 calochortus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:24:18pm

re: #478 Stanley Sea

Sadly so.

480 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:24:30pm

Well after butting heads with much of LGF, I’m more or less running on empty so I’m calling it a night good luck to all my fellow lizards who still have enough energy to remain awake!

481 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:25:51pm

re: #480 jamesfirecat

Well after butting heads with much of LGF, I’m more or less running on empty so I’m calling it a night good luck to all my fellow lizards who still have enough energy to remain awake!

Sleep well, James.

482 Interesting Times  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:26:11pm

re: #475 freetoken

Womb Wars of the 21st Century!

Makes kind of a neat movie title, no?

A Womb with a View

Panic Womb

The Situation Womb

483 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:26:35pm

Stop it.

484 jaunte  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:26:55pm

Conservatives queue up for peek at ‘Atlas Shrugged’ at CPAC

“Hollywood does not think enough people” are interested in the message of “Atlas Shrugged,” says executive producer Harmon Kaslow to the room. This is why he has brought the film clips to CPAC - to prompt a grass-roots groundswell of demand for the film at theaters, “spread through the technology of freedom.”
485 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:27:03pm
486 BishopX  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:27:16pm

G’night all.

487 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:27:31pm

the politics of the tarp thing are utterly bizarre

somehow a republican bailout of the most uber capitalist institutions in the history of the universe became a socialist plot by a democratic president

wtf?

488 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:30:19pm

re: #487 engineer dog

the politics of the tarp thing are utterly bizarre

somehow a republican bailout of the most uber capitalist institutions in the history of the universe became a socialist plot by a democratic president

wtf?

That’s always fascinated me too. I think it may because people just don’t have enough words in there vocab to describe what it actually was. Socialist already was considered negative so people just go with that.

489 jaunte  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:32:54pm

re: #485 SanFranciscoZionist

Not the most comforting clip I’ve ever seen.

I think after their excitement dies down a little the majority of Egyptians will become focused on their own varied self interests and not their perceived (taught) enemies.

490 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:33:22pm

re: #485 SanFranciscoZionist

Not the most comforting clip I’ve ever seen.

That element is certainly a factor. Hopefully their influence will remain fairly weak.

491 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:33:23pm

re: #482 publicityStunted

A Womb with a View

Panic Womb

The Situation Womb

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Womb

492 calochortus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:35:38pm

And on that note, time to have a little wine and watch the Iron Chef America contestants do things with chocolate. Mmmmm, chocolate.

493 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:35:53pm

re: #489 jaunte

I think after their excitement dies down a little the majority of Egyptians will become focused on their own varied self interests and not their perceived (taught) enemies.

Hopefully, but in the Arab world it has often not worked out that way.

494 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:37:54pm

re: #485 SanFranciscoZionist

Not the most comforting clip I’ve ever seen.

Certainly a reality that can’t be escaped - there will be anti-Israel elements to whatever Egyptian gov’t comes about, assuming it is a representative one, because there are elements in Egyptian society that are either/both anti-Jew or anti-Western.

495 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:38:59pm

re: #494 freetoken

Certainly a reality that can’t be escaped - there will be anti-Israel elements to whatever Egyptian gov’t comes about, assuming it is a representative one, because there are elements in Egyptian society that are either/both anti-Jew or anti-Western.

Quite Concur.

496 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:42:08pm

re: #224 SanFranciscoZionist

I wouldn’t say we’re on our knees. Our back is giving us trouble.

I’d say it’s more like the US has IBS and ulcers.

497 jaunte  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:42:36pm

re: #493 Dark_Falcon

Yes, I’m being optimistic. I think when people are allowed to pursue their individual self interest, it’s more difficult to get them enthusiastic about having a war. That said, the future government in Egypt is most likely to be difficult for Israel, because it’s just too politically convenient for whoever is in power.

498 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:43:56pm
499 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:49:09pm

re: #498 Lidane

This is too funny:

Ann Coulter: ‘The Left Is Trying To Co-opt Gays’

I’m not going to watch but how does this…

the left is trying to co-opt gays. They should be on our side. We watched this for 30 years. The left keeps using one group after another to destroy the family. That is their goal, to destroy the family. Liberals want the family destroyed. Then you have loyalty directly to the state.”

……make sense.

Why should gays (in her logic) be on their side?

500 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:51:23pm

re: #498 Lidane

This is too funny:

Ann Coulter: ‘The Left Is Trying To Co-opt Gays’

WOW.

501 jaunte  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:51:38pm

re: #499 Jadespring

What is this ‘logic’ of which you speak?

502 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:52:18pm

re: #501 jaunte

What is this ‘logic’ of which you speak?

I don’t think there’s any.

I just have to stop trying to figure it out.

503 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:53:04pm

re: #499 Jadespring

I’m not going to watch but how does this…

…make sense.

Why should gays (in her logic) be on their side?

Maybe…

Hmmm…

(scratches head)….No….

I got nothing. Maybe Ann figures that the gays will be on her side once they realize that the left is only using them to destroy the family, and doesn’t care about them as people.

504 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:54:35pm

re: #503 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe…

Hmmm…

(scratches head)…No…

I got nothing. Maybe Ann figures that the gays will be on her side once they realize that the left is only using them to destroy the family, and doesn’t care about them as people.

Okay that sorta makes sense.

505 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:54:43pm

hey all

How is your Saturday Night?

506 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:55:07pm

re: #505 ggt

hey all

How is your Saturday Night?

Live.

507 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:55:59pm

re: #499 Jadespring

I’m not going to watch but how does this…

…make sense.

Why should gays (in her logic) be on their side?

The in thing on the right is to sound like Palin, throw talking points into the wind and hope nobody notices the incoherence while pretending to deep thoughts.

508 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:56:16pm

re: #499 Jadespring

I’m not going to watch but how does this…

…make sense.

Why should gays (in her logic) be on their side?

It’s a weird talking point. They use the same “logic” to claim that blacks, Hispanics and Jews should vote Republican.

509 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:56:24pm

re: #505 ggt

hey all

How is your Saturday Night?

I’m listening to Sarit Hadad sing soppy Arabic love songs.

510 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:57:24pm

re: #499 Jadespring

I’m not going to watch but how does this…

…make sense.

Why should gays (in her logic) be on their side?

Money —a lot of gays have high incomes.

The thinking is that they should be fiscally conservative and therefore on the “Right” side of things.

511 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:57:42pm

re: #508 Killgore Trout

It’s a weird talking point. They use the same “logic” to claim that blacks, Hispanics and Jews should vote Republican.

There are, actually, rational arguments to be made for why those groups should vote Republican, although they tend to disregard some key bits.

This one doesn’t hold together that much.

512 jaunte  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:57:53pm

Since it’s Saturday night, here’s a little early Valentine music:
Otis Redding - Try A Little Tenderness

513 Kragar (Antichrist )  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:58:23pm

re: #498 Lidane

This is too funny:

Ann Coulter: ‘The Left Is Trying To Co-opt Gays’

My puzzler hurts.

514 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:58:28pm

re: #498 Lidane

This is too funny:

Ann Coulter: ‘The Left Is Trying To Co-opt Gays’

Calling it self-parody would be too generous.

515 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:59:07pm

re: #505 ggt

hey all

How is your Saturday Night?

I’m tired, but I’m in decent spirits.

516 Kragar (Antichrist )  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:59:41pm

re: #508 Killgore Trout

It’s a weird talking point. They use the same “logic” to claim that blacks, Hispanics and Jews should vote Republican.

They should accept their place as outcasts cut off from polite society and help win one for the team.

/

517 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:00:08pm

re: #510 ggt

Money —a lot of gays have high incomes.

The thinking is that they should be fiscally conservative and therefore on the “Right” side of things.

Makes sense, although I’m not sure how effective that argument is, coming from someone who appears to be arguing that Democrats are only nice to gays because they destroy the family.

“You’re hardworking/family oriented/supporters of Israel/pro-life/etc. and should therefore vote Republican,” is a potentially persuasive argument.

“You’re out to destroy the family, which is what the Democrats want, and should therefore vote Republican,” is slightly less so.

518 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:01:04pm

Oh okay is it basically?— They should be on our side because their side is just using them for their nefarious agenda and don’t actually care about them.

519 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:01:39pm

re: #517 SanFranciscoZionist

Makes sense, although I’m not sure how effective that argument is, coming from someone who appears to be arguing that Democrats are only nice to gays because they destroy the family.

“You’re hardworking/family oriented/supporters of Israel/pro-life/etc. and should therefore vote Republican,” is a potentially persuasive argument.

“You’re out to destroy the family, which is what the Democrats want, and should therefore vote Republican,” is slightly less so.

It’s the only argument I could think of. I don’t have the same vested interest as does Ann, so I can’t begin to strangle my mind as she does.

520 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:02:10pm

re: #517 SanFranciscoZionist

Makes sense, although I’m not sure how effective that argument is, coming from someone who appears to be arguing that Democrats are only nice to gays because they destroy the family.

“You’re hardworking/family oriented/supporters of Israel/pro-life/etc. and should therefore vote Republican,” is a potentially persuasive argument.

“You’re out to destroy the family, which is what the Democrats want, and should therefore vote Republican,” is slightly less so.

Agreed.

521 Kragar (Antichrist )  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:02:31pm

re: #518 Jadespring

Oh okay is it basically?— They should be on our side because their side is just using them for their nefarious agenda and don’t actually care about them.

The Left is lying to them, but the GOP lets them know straight up they’re second class citizens.

/

522 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:02:33pm

I guess, I’d need to know Ann’s definition of “family”.

523 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:03:14pm

re: #521 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Left is lying to them, but the GOP lets them know straight up they’re second class citizens.

/

:D

524 HoosierHoops  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:03:32pm

re: #505 ggt

hey all

How is your Saturday Night?

Hi You…I spent all my Christmas Gift cards today
I got everything from running shoes to a new shower head and lots of clothes..
I’d say today was pretty cool for shopping

525 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:05:22pm

look what showed-up on npr.org’s front page:

The Civil Wars: A Chance Meeting, An Internet Sensation

iirc, Lizards saw/heard it a while ago.

cue evil laugh.

526 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:05:58pm

re: #524 HoosierHoops

Hi You…I spent all my Christmas Gift cards today
I got everything from running shoes to a new shower head and lots of clothes..
I’d say today was pretty cool for shopping

I am seething with jealously.

Good for you, glad you had fun with it.

:)

527 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:06:53pm

I guess I just find the USian fixation on gayness just weird sometimes. Sure we have anti-gay stuff up here but there have been ‘gay’ politicians, even righties both open and those where it’s known but just not talked about-mostly because it’s just not as politically important as other things.

528 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:08:09pm

OT

I must say, I am disappointed in the iPad version of Safari. No tabs and no multitasking/threading so I can’t open more than one LGF thread.

The hype is empty.

Bleh.

529 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:09:26pm

re: #527 Jadespring

I guess I just find the USian fixation on gayness just weird sometimes. Sure we have anti-gay stuff up here but there have been ‘gay’ politicians, even righties both open and those where it’s known but just not talked about-mostly because it’s just not as politically important as other things.

There are a (ahem) group of people who equate homosexuality with promiscuity. Trying to explain that most gays are not hanging out on the corners in New Orleans dressed in drag—or that even the people who are aren’t necessarily gay—is usually met with glazed eyes.

530 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:09:42pm

re: #527 Jadespring

I guess I just find the USian fixation on gayness just weird sometimes. Sure we have anti-gay stuff up here but there have been ‘gay’ politicians, even righties both open and those where it’s known but just not talked about-mostly because it’s just not as politically important as other things.

We’re too sexy for that.

531 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:10:39pm

re: #527 Jadespring

I guess I just find the USian fixation on gayness just weird sometimes. Sure we have anti-gay stuff up here but there have been ‘gay’ politicians, even righties both open and those where it’s known but just not talked about-mostly because it’s just not as politically important as other things.

I honestly have no idea why when or why we fixated so relentlessly on this particular thing.

I hope we get the hell over it.

532 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:11:30pm

re: #527 Jadespring

I guess I just find the USian fixation on gayness just weird sometimes. Sure we have anti-gay stuff up here but there have been ‘gay’ politicians, even righties both open and those where it’s known but just not talked about-mostly because it’s just not as politically important as other things.

It’s not so much a fixation on gays, IMO, but on sex in general, and gays represent they most hedonistic for the folks with the hangups.

It’s also all that family values garbage that’s made its way into politics.

533 Single-handed sailor  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:12:33pm

Ah yes, the old ‘Join us because the democrats are just using you, but we still hate you because you are family destroying abominations before God’ fig leaf to the gay community ploy.

534 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:13:18pm

re: #530 b_sharp

We’re too sexy for that.

Yeah that must be it. :)

Seriously though don’t you just find it bizarre sometimes that we’re so close to each and yet there is such a difference? When was the last time you heard any major politician or party promoter talk anti-gay in any instance that gets widespread attention? I know they’re out there it’s just seems to barely blip in our political discourse.

535 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:14:42pm

re: #531 SanFranciscoZionist

I honestly have no idea why when or why we fixated so relentlessly on this particular thing.

I hope we get the hell over it.

I hope so too. For everyone’s sake. It just seems like such a waste of time and air.

536 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:15:01pm

re: #512 jaunte

Since it’s Saturday night, here’s a little early Valentine music:
Otis Redding - Try A Little Tenderness

I really like this version.

537 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:16:41pm

I hope my comments don’t come across as America bashing. I don’t mean them that way at all. Just pondering the difference.

538 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:17:55pm

Btw, family values isn’t garbage :) It just doesn’t belong in politics. There are too many kinds of families. We aren’t a nation of mom + dad + 2.5 kids anymore.

539 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:18:23pm

re: #524 HoosierHoops

Hi You…I spent all my Christmas Gift cards today
I got everything from running shoes to a new shower head and lots of clothes..
I’d say today was pretty cool for shopping

Hey!
That sounds fun!
What did Winston get?

540 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:18:31pm

re: #537 Jadespring

I hope my comments don’t come across as America bashing. I don’t mean them that way at all. Just pondering the difference.

Maybe because it’s cold up there, ya’ll have more important things to worry about :)

541 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:19:21pm

re: #537 Jadespring

I hope my comments don’t come across as America bashing. I don’t mean them that way at all. Just pondering the difference.

Nah. We’re decidedly a different country in a lot of ways…and comparing notes with, say, Canada, with whom we have a lot in common, is a good way to figure ourselves out a bit more.

542 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:20:12pm

re: #538 marjoriemoon

Btw, family values isn’t garbage :) It just doesn’t belong in politics. There are too many kinds of families. We aren’t a nation of mom + dad + 2.5 kids anymore.

Family is important, and values are important, it’s just that anyone promoting ‘family values’ is usually a problem.

;)

543 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:21:34pm

re: #528 b_sharp

OT

I must say, I am disappointed in the iPad version of Safari. No tabs and no multitasking/threading so I can’t open more than one LGF thread.

The hype is empty.

Bleh.

I lied.
I found tabs.

544 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:22:37pm

re: #541 SanFranciscoZionist

Nah. We’re decidedly a different country in a lot of ways…and comparing notes with, say, Canada, with whom we have a lot in common, is a good way to figure ourselves out a bit more.

I do think it does have a lot to do with the influence of the religious right or the so-con segment. We do have that here but as of yet they just haven’t got the same amount of traction in politics like they seem to in the States. Not for want of trying though.

545 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:23:24pm

re: #538 marjoriemoon

Btw, family values isn’t garbage :) It just doesn’t belong in politics. There are too many kinds of families. We aren’t a nation of mom + dad + 2.5 kids anymore.

We never really were —only on TV and in the Movies.

546 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:24:26pm

re: #545 ggt

We never really were —only on TV and in the Movies.

The year we had the most divorces per capita in the United States was 1946.

547 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:25:46pm

re: #546 SanFranciscoZionist

The year we had the most divorces per capita in the United States was 1946.

Really? Interesting. Because of the War possibly?

548 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:26:43pm

re: #527 Jadespring

I guess I just find the USian fixation on gayness just weird sometimes.

It is difficult for us as a nation to come to terms with just how much has changed. The one thing Canada has going for it is that as a smaller and in some ways younger nation it is less trapped by the past.

We’re still dealing with the results of the Great Awakenings I and II.

549 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:26:55pm

Waking up here. Coulter said something and no one was there to pay any attention save a few old white people. This has to have been the strangest CPACs ever.

550 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:27:03pm

re: #534 Jadespring

Yeah that must be it. :)

Seriously though don’t you just find it bizarre sometimes that we’re so close to each and yet there is such a difference? When was the last time you heard any major politician or party promoter talk anti-gay in any instance that gets widespread attention? I know they’re out there it’s just seems to barely blip in our political discourse.

We’re less vocal than the US. I hear some of the right wing stuff on radio shows and it’s being expressed more openly all the time here on the prairies.
I’m afraid we’ll get there.

551 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:27:55pm

re: #547 Jadespring

Really? Interesting. Because of the War possibly?

I suspect so. Everyone got married because he was going off to war, and then he got home, with PTSD, except no one called it that then, and, well, it wasn’t the best idea in the first place.

My grandparents hung on until the mid-50s, but the marriage never really flew.

552 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:29:10pm

re: #550 b_sharp

We’re less vocal than the US. I hear some of the right wing stuff on radio shows and it’s being expressed more openly all the time here on the prairies.
I’m afraid we’ll get there.

Ugh. I’m hoping we don’t. That would be going backwards.

553 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:29:21pm

re: #550 b_sharp

Yeah, it’s been my impression that Alberta and Manitoba have emerging theocon movements. Certainly Alberta politically seems to be drifting in a Reagan-esque direction.

554 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:29:28pm

re: #199 Max D. Reinhardt

The “neo-cons”, along millions of other Americans, were sure that more terrorist attacks were eminent. The old techniques may be better and more morally sound, but I can understand why they didn’t use them. They were afraid, like the rest of us, that if they didn’t act quickly there would be another attack.

I can understand why in retrospect would critique this policy (and I does deserve to be critiqued), but saying that it was all because of hubris is just silly.


They panicked, and solicited the help from novices in interrogation to justify their pre-conceived notions about what would and wouldn’t work. They rejected the advise of seasoned interrogators, and hired hack lawyers and instructed them to provide legal cover. I’d say that qualifies as hubris. They thought that they knew better than experienced professionals. They acted similarly in developing their plans for the post invasion process. They developed and implemented some of the most seriously flawed policies in the history of the country. Why someone would feel compelled to excuse their ineptness is beyond me.

555 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:30:25pm

re: #551 SanFranciscoZionist

I suspect so. Everyone got married because he was going off to war, and then he got home, with PTSD, except no one called it that then, and, well, it wasn’t the best idea in the first place.

My grandparents hung on until the mid-50s, but the marriage never really flew.

That makes sense. Possibly some ‘dear john’ things happening while they were away too.

556 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:30:29pm

re: #538 marjoriemoon

Btw, family values isn’t garbage :) It just doesn’t belong in politics. There are too many kinds of families. We aren’t a nation of mom + dad + 2.5 kids anymore.

Even for people who are… the idea of Mom staying home to raise the kids is not a universal value.

In my family for at least four generations the rule has been that moms have careers, and grandmas hang around the house raising kids (and telling the kids stories about their careers, encouraging the little girls to aspire to professions and the little boys to marry professionals). I think the most recent housewife in our family tree was a 19th century Romanian.

557 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:30:57pm

re: #552 Jadespring

Ugh. I’m hoping we don’t. That would be going backwards.

I’m hoping it stays restricted to the west.

558 sagehen  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:31:44pm

re: #546 SanFranciscoZionist

The year we had the most divorces per capita in the United States was 1946.

Yeah, but that was 4 years of backlog…

559 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:32:21pm

re: #555 Jadespring

That makes sense. Possibly some ‘dear john’ things happening while they were away too.

A lot of women had to learn to be independent while their men were away. Many never had to work full-time and figure-out how to pay the bills etc. before. Men came home to a different women than he left.

560 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:32:28pm

re: #553 freetoken

Yeah, it’s been my impression that Alberta and Manitoba have emerging theocon movements. Certainly Alberta politically seems to be drifting in a Reagan-esque direction.

Sask. Is the same.
I just hope we don’t get the Wild Rose party here.

561 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:34:49pm

re: #553 freetoken

Yeah, it’s been my impression that Alberta and Manitoba have emerging theocon movements. Certainly Alberta politically seems to be drifting in a Reagan-esque direction.

Yeah I guess I forgot about Alberta in my first comment. Didn’t know about Manitoba. I know there’s a lot of stuff on right wing radio here in Ontario I just don’t see it manifesting higher up in the political discourse, well at least not this anti-gay type stuff.

Probably helps that our Armed Forces have been accepting of gays for years now so there’s no national argument about that.

562 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:35:44pm

re: #556 sagehen

There is nothing wrong with raising good kids. Grandparents or parents, the kids are the future. Education matters.

563 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:36:10pm

re: #556 sagehen

Even for people who are… the idea of Mom staying home to raise the kids is not a universal value.

In my family for at least four generations the rule has been that moms have careers, and grandmas hang around the house raising kids (and telling the kids stories about their careers, encouraging the little girls to aspire to professions and the little boys to marry professionals). I think the most recent housewife in our family tree was a 19th century Romanian.

Indeed. My father’s mother had a college degree. She was born in 1890.

The sexual revolution in the 60s (we’ve talked about that here before) probably pushed everything forward a lot faster, when many more woman decided they didn’t HAVE to marry to either have a family, be successful or fulfilled with their lives. Rather, it was ok to chose. Our unsung heroines, lots of brave, pioneering women contributed to that.

564 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:37:00pm

re: #513 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My puzzler hurts.

And I’m far too sober to try and make sense of it.

Personally, I’m more inclined to point and laugh. She’s saying that gays should be on the right because liberals want to destroy the family…by giving rights to gay people. It’s hilariously twisted and so incoherent that you can’t do anything but roll your eyes.

565 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:37:05pm

I think a lot of the anti-gay stuff is that men don’t trust themselves. Some know they need social pressure to keep themselves in line especially after alcohol enters the picture.

566 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:37:20pm

re: #563 marjoriemoon

Indeed. My father’s mother had a college degree. She was born in 1890.

The sexual revolution in the 60s (we’ve talked about that here before) probably pushed everything forward a lot faster, when many more woman decided they didn’t HAVE to marry to either have a family, be successful or fulfilled with their lives. Rather, it was ok to choOse. Our unsung heroines, lots of brave, pioneering women contributed to that.

Alex, I’ll buy an O for $500.

567 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:37:24pm

re: #561 Jadespring

Creationism or evolution? Your passport may hold the answer

Mario Canseco with Angus Reid says there is still a lot of controversy, especially in the US where the work of Charles Darwin is left out of the curriculum in some schools. “What we see right now when it comes to Canada, aside from Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan, is that not a lot of people believe that God created human beings at this time.”

568 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:39:12pm

re: #549 Gus 802

Waking up here. Coulter said something and no one was there to pay any attention save a few old white people. This has to have been the strangest CPACs ever.

I’ve been checking out the FrumForum “take” on it and yes - the strangest CPAC ever.

569 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:40:06pm

From the survey mentioned in that news article:

In Canada, three-in-five respondents (61%) select evolution from the two options provided, while one-in-four (24%) pick creationism. Quebec (66%) and British Columbia (64%) hold the highest proportion of respondents who believe human beings evolved, while three-in-ten Albertans (31%) think God created human beings in their present form.

I see Alberta is almost ready to become the 51st state.

570 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:40:06pm

re: #563 marjoriemoon

Indeed. My father’s mother had a college degree. She was born in 1890.

The sexual revolution in the 60s (we’ve talked about that here before) probably pushed everything forward a lot faster, when many more woman decided they didn’t HAVE to marry to either have a family, be successful or fulfilled with their lives. Rather, it was ok to chose. Our unsung heroines, lots of brave, pioneering women contributed to that.

The WWII changed a lot of things. There were a lot of pioneering woman at the turn of the century and after. Then we had all these GI’s coming back and using the benefits to get college degrees. Men who would never have entered the workforce at a professional were competing for jobs. Women didn’t stand a chance in the workplace and didn’t have to as her husband was able to make a good wage. More good hourly wage jobs as well—car production etc. …

Any women with a brain that wanted an education and career that wasn’t nursing or education was hosed.

571 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:40:24pm

Geez I just checked because I wasn’t sure. In our military gays were openly accepted in 1992. That’s almost 20 years. Didn’t realize it was that long ago.

572 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:40:27pm

re: #568 reine.de.tout

I’ve been checking out the FrumForum “take” on it and yes - the strangest CPAC ever.

I imagine it might be a pleasant place to be drunk, if you locked up your guns beforehand.

573 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:41:23pm

re: #571 Jadespring

Geez I just checked because I wasn’t sure. In our military gays were openly accepted in 1992. That’s almost 20 years. Didn’t realize it was that long ago.

Twenty years of unchecked terror in the showers, as gay soldiers openly leer at the butts of straight soldiers.

///

574 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:41:32pm

re: #567 freetoken

Creationism or evolution? Your passport may hold the answer

I love being an atheist in the middle of Canada’s bible belt.

575 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:41:35pm

re: #565 ggt

I think a lot of the anti-gay stuff is that men don’t trust themselves. Some know they need social pressure to keep themselves in line especially after alcohol enters the picture.

Pretty much.

They should just get a GGG partner who will indulge their fantasies from time to time. It would definitely ease up on all the anti-gay vitriol.

576 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:42:25pm

re: #568 reine.de.tout

I’ve been checking out the FrumForum “take” on it and yes - the strangest CPAC ever.

Ever wake up from a nap and think to yourself, “man, that was strange”. Only it wasn’t because of a dream but because of something you saw or heard. Well, for me it was thinking about CPAC especially after reading what Coulter said.

CPAC: man, that was strange.

577 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:43:03pm

re: #576 Gus 802

Ever wake up from a nap and think to yourself, “man, that was strange”. Only it wasn’t because of a dream but because of something you saw or heard. Well, for me it was thinking about CPAC especially after reading what Coulter said.

CPAC: man, that was strange.

I an blissfully ignorant this year. Didn’t see any of it.

578 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:43:22pm

re: #574 b_sharp

That survey I just linked called out Alberta. But, looking at the table on pg 4, the Manitoba/Sasks. number is even higher - 39% believe in creationism.

579 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:45:07pm

re: #577 ggt

I an blissfully ignorant this year. Didn’t see any of it.

I listened to most of the day when Rick Perry spoke. Yeah, that was strange too. Glad I missed Breitbart. :) Frankly I wouldn’t really to anything like this whether it be left or right wing. This more like a “study”.

580 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:45:08pm

I still don’t understand the controversy. Evolution vs. Creationism.

I don’t see how the two are mutually exclusive and probably never will.

581 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:45:34pm

re: #565 ggt

I think a lot of the anti-gay stuff is that men don’t trust themselves. Some know they need social pressure to keep themselves in line especially after alcohol enters the picture.

We live in a very diverse area and part of that are a lot of gay folks.

We go to a lot of neighborhood parties, some where we’re the only straight couple. Hubby has no problem with any of this, except for one fellow who’s 6’7” and I’m pretty sure has developed a little crush on him. That unnerves him a bit. I don’t help any by telling him things like “I wonder if your boyfriend is coming to the party tonight.” But I’m just evil that way :)

582 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:46:02pm

re: #569 freetoken

From the survey mentioned in that news article:

I see Alberta is almost ready to become the 51st state.

I just looked at the survey and there wasn’t two options. There was three. 61% humans evolved, 24% created within 10,000 years and 15% not sure.

583 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:46:20pm

re: #578 freetoken

That survey I just linked called out Alberta. But, looking at the table on pg 4, the Manitoba/Sasks. number is even higher - 39% believe in creationism.

If it was broken down into rural/urban, rural would be much higher than 39%.

584 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:46:43pm

re: #581 marjoriemoon

We live in a very diverse area and part of that are a lot of gay folks.

We go to a lot of neighborhood parties, some where we’re the only straight couple. Hubby has no problem with any of this, except for one fellow who’s 6’7” and I’m pretty sure has developed a little crush on him. That unnerves him a bit. I don’t help any by telling him things like “I wonder if your boyfriend is coming to the party tonight.” But I’m just evil that way :)

teehee

585 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:47:26pm

re: #580 ggt

I still don’t understand the controversy. Evolution vs. Creationism.

I don’t see how the two are mutually exclusive and probably never will.

Read the bible literally. That makes them exclusive.

586 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:47:45pm

re: #573 SanFranciscoZionist

Twenty years of unchecked terror in the showers, as gay soldiers openly leer at the butts of straight soldiers.

///

Yes it’s been a disaster. :)

Here’s some conclusion that a US study found..

The study is the most comprehensive academic study by US researchers of homosexuality in a foreign military ever compiled and reflects an exhaustive inventory of relevant data and research. Its title is “Effects of the 1992 Lifting of Restrictions on Gay and Lesbian Service in the Canadian Forces; Appraising the Evidence”.

* Lifting of restrictions on gay and lesbian service in the Canadian Forces has not led to any change in military performance, unit cohesion, or discipline.
* Self-identified gay, lesbian, and transsexual members of the Canadian Forces contacted for the study describe good working relationships with peers.
* The percent of military women who experienced sexual harassment dropped 46% after the ban was lifted. While there were several reasons why harassment declined, one factor was that after the ban was lifted women were free to report assaults without fear that they would be accused of being a lesbian.

* Before Canada lifted its gay ban, a 1985 survey of 6,500 male soldiers found that 62% said that they would refuse to share showers, undress or sleep in the same room as a gay soldier. After the ban was lifted, follow-up studies found no increase in disciplinary, performance, recruitment, sexual misconduct, or resignation problems.

* None of the 905 assault cases in the Canadian Forces from November, 1992 (when the ban was lifted) until August, 1995 involved gay bashing or could be attributed to the sexual orientation of one of the parties.

587 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:48:08pm

re: #585 b_sharp

Read the bible literally. That makes them exclusive.

nah, I still don’t buy it.

Probably because I’m RC.

:0

588 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:48:29pm

re: #580 ggt

I still don’t understand the controversy. Evolution vs. Creationism.

I don’t see how the two are mutually exclusive and probably never will.

In order to accept Creationism, you have to believe that a deity created the world we live in out of whole cloth, as it is now. Dinosaurs, fossils, the idea that the Earth is more than a few thousand years old, etc. — these are tricks being played by the devil to fool you into not seeing God in everything.

Evolution disagrees with all that, so it’s a threat to the biblical fundamentalists who embrace Creationism.

589 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:48:43pm

re: #582 Jadespring

Yup. Unlike the major US surveys, it didn’t give people an “out”. It separated the YEC from the science/modernists.

590 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:50:18pm

re: #580 ggt

I still don’t understand the controversy. Evolution vs. Creationism.

I don’t see how the two are mutually exclusive and probably never will.

I was brought up in a church. It really wasn’t. Most seemed to hold the belief that God did indeed create and the mechinism was evolution. The Genesis creation stories weren’t taken literally.

591 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:51:37pm

re: #587 ggt

nah, I still don’t buy it.

Probably because I’m RC.

:0

I was raised Catholic. They tend to embrace evolution to an extent, but still maintain that God is guiding and controlling it. That’s known as Intelligent Design.

Creationism is a whole different animal. ID is basically an attempt to inject a respectable sheen to Creationism, but neither is scientifically valid.

592 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:52:27pm

re: #573 SanFranciscoZionist

Twenty years of unchecked terror in the showers, as gay soldiers openly leer at the butts of straight soldiers.

///

That’s hilarious. Gays make up what? 10 percent of the population? Now consider the percentage of men that will join the Marines. I don’t know the number but I’m guess it would mean that 1 in 100 Marines might be gay. Who were probably there all along during DADT.

593 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:53:19pm

re: #587 ggt

nah, I still don’t buy it.

Probably because I’m RC.

:0

A literal reading requires a 6000 - 10000 year old Earth, while evolution requires significantly more. If evolution is correct then the Bible is wrong, meaning it is not the literal word of God.

594 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:53:24pm

re: #588 Lidane

In order to accept Creationism, you have to believe that a deity created the world we live in out of whole cloth, as it is now. Dinosaurs, fossils, the idea that the Earth is more than a few thousand years old, etc. — these are tricks being played by the devil to fool you into not seeing God in everything.

Evolution disagrees with all that, so it’s a threat to the biblical fundamentalists who embrace Creationism.

I guess, for me, that would take the mystery out of it. And belief in any higher power is intrinsic with the mystery of creation. A power so great to create life is far beyond the human mind to grasp. Anyone who thinks they KNOW anything about it is fooling themselves, iirc.

We have brains and figured out the mechanics of evolution and the sperm and the egg, but we can’t create the spark. We can only put all of the factors together and hope. We can play with animal husbandry and get it right most of the time, maybe. We can work with plants and create GMO seeds that increase yields, but may have consequences.

595 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:53:52pm

re: #586 Jadespring

* Before Canada lifted its gay ban, a 1985 survey of 6,500 male soldiers found that 62% said that they would refuse to share showers, undress or sleep in the same room as a gay soldier.

Part of our argument to get rid of DADT was that the same was said about Blacks before they were allowed to serve.

Like I say, we have a lot of sexual hangups.

596 Kragar (Antichrist )  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:54:52pm

re: #593 b_sharp

A literal reading requires a 6000 - 10000 year old Earth, while evolution requires significantly more. If evolution is correct then the Bible is wrong, meaning it is not the literal word of God.

“Beware of the person of one book.”
- Thomas Aquinas

597 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:55:52pm

re: #595 marjoriemoon

Part of our argument to get rid of DADT was that the same was said about Blacks before they were allowed to serve.

Like I say, we have a lot of sexual hangups.

We have a lot of sexual hangups, but there’s enough gay military porn out there to suggest that gays in the military has been an obvious fact of life for a while now.

598 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:57:27pm

re: #593 b_sharp

A literal reading requires a 6000 - 10000 year old Earth, while evolution requires significantly more. If evolution is correct then the Bible is wrong, meaning it is not the literal word of God.

My Mom would say well if you consider each day to be a millions of years then it works out pretty good.

She nor the Church is not a literal based one obviously.

599 Kragar (Antichrist )  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:57:42pm

re: #597 Lidane

We have a lot of sexual hangups, but there’s enough gay military porn out there to suggest that gays in the military has been an obvious fact of life for a while now.

600 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:58:31pm

re: #597 Lidane

We have a lot of sexual hangups, but there’s enough gay military porn out there to suggest that gays in the military has been an obvious fact of life for a while now.

The concept of two opposite and exclusive sexes is another example of typical binary thinking. Science is showing gender is pretty damn messy.

601 Single-handed sailor  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:58:40pm

re: #594 ggt

I guess, for me, that would take the mystery out of it. And belief in any higher power is intrinsic with the mystery of creation. A power so great to create life is far beyond the human mind to grasp. Anyone who thinks they KNOW anything about it is fooling themselves, iirc.

We have brains and figured out the mechanics of evolution and the sperm and the egg, but we can’t create the spark. We can only put all of the factors together and hope. We can play with animal husbandry and get it right most of the time, maybe. We can work with plants and create GMO seeds that increase yields, but may have consequences.

Give us another decade and we will be creating real life.

602 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 9:59:08pm

re: #593 b_sharp

A literal reading requires a 6000 - 10000 year old Earth, while evolution requires significantly more. If evolution is correct then the Bible is wrong, meaning it is not the literal word of God.

But the Bible has been wrong in all scientific cases. Which is odd because once the Bible said the Earth was flat yet most Christian accept that it is round and the Bible was in error. And they all accept that you can’t “build a tower to the heavens.”

603 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:02:46pm

re: #602 Gus 802

But the Bible has been wrong in all scientific cases. Which is odd because once the Bible said the Earth was flat yet most Christian accept that it is round and the Bible was in error. And they all accept that you can’t “build a tower to the heavens.”


Does the Bible say the earth is flat?

604 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:02:49pm

re: #602 Gus 802

But the Bible has been wrong in all scientific cases. Which is odd because once the Bible said the Earth was flat yet most Christian accept that it is round and the Bible was in error. And they all accept that you can’t “build a tower to the heavens.”

Creationists are the most self delusional people and are more prone to confirmation bias than any human.

605 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:02:54pm

re: #593 b_sharp

A literal reading requires a 6000 - 10000 year old Earth, while evolution requires significantly more. If evolution is correct then the Bible is wrong, meaning it is not the literal word of God.

Maybe it depends on the religion :)

I have to go back to Maimonides who said that if science proves the Bible (Torah) wrong, it’s not that the Book is wrong, but it’s the Book we don’t understand and we have to go back and look again at the interpretation.

606 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:03:11pm

re: #591 Lidane

I still don’t get the either/or scenerio. From the Vatican Website “Pontifical Academy of Sciences:

blockquote>Nature is a book whose history, whose evolution, whose “writing” and meaning, we “read” according to the different approaches of the sciences, while all the time presupposing the foundational presence of the author who has wished to reveal himself within.

Benedict XVI

IMHO, the Creationists lack the ability to think metaphysically.

607 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:03:43pm

re: #603 SanFranciscoZionist

Does the Bible say the earth is flat?

It says it’s square. Four corners.

608 Kragar (Antichrist )  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:04:25pm

re: #606 ggt

I still don’t get the either/or scenerio. From the Vatican Website “Pontifical Academy of Sciences:

blockquote>Nature is a book whose history, whose evolution, whose “writing” and meaning, we “read” according to the different approaches of the sciences, while all the time presupposing the foundational presence of the author who has wished to reveal himself within.

Benedict XVI

IMHO, the Creationists lack the ability to think metaphysically.

Creationists lack faith because if they don’t understand the science, they think God couldn’t do it.

609 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:04:30pm

re: #602 Gus 802

But the Bible has been wrong in all scientific cases. Which is odd because once the Bible said the Earth was flat yet most Christian accept that it is round and the Bible was in error. And they all accept that you can’t “build a tower to the heavens.”

This is why even people that proclaim that they follow the ‘literal’ word don’t. They’ll talk about metaphor and analogy if you bring these up. Don’t bother asking how you’re supposed to know that okay in this instance it’s literal and in this one it’s metaphor. You’re just supposed to know.

610 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:05:02pm

Creationism: the last hold out.re: #604 b_sharp

Creationists are the most self delusional people and are more prone to confirmation bias than any human.

Yeah. Seems highly selective. They choose to take creationism (Genesis) literally yet don’t take the rest of the “scientific pronouncements” in the Bible literally. It can’t be either/or. Otherwise they should denounce medicine and choose the healing capabilities of prayer and God.

611 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:05:03pm

re: #593 b_sharp

A literal reading requires a 6000 - 10000 year old Earth, while evolution requires significantly more. If evolution is correct then the Bible is wrong, meaning it is not the literal word of God.

From a book that has been passed from word of mouth in many languages and then written and translated in many languages decided on by politicans and further decided on by theologians and politicans for how long?

The idea of taking anything from it literally is, well, STUPID.

612 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:05:04pm

re: #602 Gus 802

But the Bible has been wrong in all scientific cases. Which is odd because once the Bible said the Earth was flat

Well, technically it doesn’t say that.

I think a better, and more comprehensive, way of looking at this is to accept that bronze age and early iron age human understanding of the world was overly simplistic and served an immediate purpose of unifying society, not actually understanding how our world and the universe works.

That there are people today who want to take this 2500 year old view of everything and claim it is absolutely true is explanatory for why they also, say, hate gays.

The ability to change is a human trait, but we prefer being comfortable and when the two conflict (change vs. comfort) we tend to pick comfort.

It is comforting to creationists to accept multi-millennial old stories rather than to accept modern science.

613 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:05:15pm

re: #606 ggt

IMHO, the Creationists lack the ability to think metaphysically.

They’re literalists. Either every word in the Bible is inviolate, or it’s all bullshit. There’s no middle ground for them.

614 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:06:09pm

re: #601 mracb

Give us another decade and we will be creating real life.

maybe, maybe not.

615 Kragar (Antichrist )  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:06:22pm

re: #613 Lidane

They’re literalists. Either every word in the Bible is inviolate, or it’s all bullshit. There’s no middle ground for them.

I love fucking with them about the necromancer who raises an army of the undead in the Bible.

616 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:06:46pm

re: #609 Jadespring

This is why even people that proclaim that they follow the ‘literal’ word don’t. They’ll talk about metaphor and analogy if you bring these up. Don’t bother asking how you’re supposed to know that okay in this instance it’s literal and in this one it’s metaphor. You’re just supposed to know.

This is the meaning of Kabbalah, the deeper, esoteric or allegorical meanings. Abstract or spiritual.

617 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:07:40pm

re: #603 SanFranciscoZionist

Does the Bible say the earth is flat?

Guess not. Find another example.

618 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:09:34pm

re: #607 b_sharp

It says it’s square. Four corners.

Hmmm. I had never thought of that as meaning anything but ‘from all directions’.

Also, the expression doesn’t seem to come up in the Torah at all.

619 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:09:52pm

re: #617 Gus 802

Guess not. Find another example.

rabbits, chewing cud.

Or, assigning certain sea creatures as unclean because they don’t have scales… but they really do.

One can come up with a long list.

Point is, it’s 2500 year old, or in some cases 4000 year old, beliefs that have long been shown to be untrue.

It’s hard to accept if one builds one’s own life around certain beliefs just because it makes one feel safe.

620 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:10:07pm

re: #616 marjoriemoon

This is the meaning of Kabbalah, the deeper, esoteric or allegorical meanings. Abstract or spiritual.

I read a few books on Kabbalah. It’s interesting, IMO. Never got any further than that, though. I’m not Jewish, so really understanding Kabbalah would be beyond me, and the celebrity version that people like Madonna follow is so obviously fake. It’s neat though.

621 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:10:24pm

re: #617 Gus 802

Guess not. Find another example.

A spherical earth is described in Isaiah 40:21-22—“the circle of the earth.”

622 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:10:34pm

re: #617 Gus 802

Guess not. Find another example.

The idea that the ground we are standing is not literally flat seems to defy the senses. Few people have ever used surveying equipment or even understand the purpose of it. Without scientific experience or technical experience with such instrunments, it is difficult to comprehend.

623 Single-handed sailor  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:10:48pm

I’m so happy today. I thought I lost all my music when my HD crashed a year ago. I found my daughter had a large section of my collection on her linux drive. I recovered 11.5 GB of music, 2000 songs. I’m drinking the night away and listening to music.

624 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:11:01pm

re: #605 marjoriemoon

Maybe it depends on the religion :)

I have to go back to Maimonides who said that if science proves the Bible (Torah) wrong, it’s not that the Book is wrong, but it’s the Book we don’t understand and we have to go back and look again at the interpretation.

This is one of the reasons that I really respect the way Jews approach the Bible (Torah). From my outside perspective it seems like they work with it as a living document. It’s ‘truth’ is more then just about it’s literal words.

I could be way off but that’s how it appears to me.

625 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:11:24pm

re: #612 freetoken

Well, technically it doesn’t say that.

I think a better, and more comprehensive, way of looking at this is to accept that bronze age and early iron age human understanding of the world was overly simplistic and served an immediate purpose of unifying society, not actually understanding how our world and the universe works.

That there are people today who want to take this 2500 year old view of everything and claim it is absolutely true is explanatory for why they also, say, hate gays.

The ability to change is a human trait, but we prefer being comfortable and when the two conflict (change vs. comfort) we tend to pick comfort.

It is comforting to creationists to accept multi-millennial old stories rather than to accept modern science.

What I’ve always said is, if God had given us a detailed biochemical textbook explaining life on earth, we might have built a shrine to it, or eaten it, but we wouldn’t have done much else.

A narrative, on the other hand, can be understood by a child, and go on forever.

626 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:11:59pm

re: #623 mracb

Heh… I’ve concluded that any piece of music I want can be streamed from somewhere online…

627 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:12:54pm

re: #625 SanFranciscoZionist

What I’ve always said is, if God had given us a detailed biochemical textbook explaining life on earth, we might have built a shrine to it, or eaten it, but we wouldn’t have done much else.

A narrative, on the other hand, can be understood by a child, and go on forever.

EXACTLY. Do unto others as you would have done to you.

Don’t kill, honor your parents etc

Make it simple and maybe people will behave.

628 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:13:28pm

re: #625 SanFranciscoZionist

A narrative, on the other hand, can be understood by a child, and go on forever.

Especially when one accepts that what we call the Bible (the OT) today is just that - a story compiled post-exile by Jews in order to keep their old beliefs/traditions from passing away while under occupation by foreign cultures.

629 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:13:39pm

re: #614 ggt

maybe, maybe not.

If you view life as set of interacting processes, then as soon as we produce self replicating complex molecules that pull energy from their environment, we’ve created life.

Ten years might just do it.

630 Single-handed sailor  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:14:23pm

re: #626 freetoken

Heh… I’ve concluded that any piece of music I want can be streamed from somewhere online…

Yeh I’ve been doing that for a year. I how have music on my iphone. for the past month I’ve only had 3 songs on there to loop. They get pretty tiring after the 5th time through. Now I have six full days worth of music.

631 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:14:36pm

re: #623 mracb

I’m so happy today. I thought I lost all my music when my HD crashed a year ago. I found my daughter had a large section of my collection on her linux drive. I recovered 11.5 GB of music, 2000 songs. I’m drinking the night away and listening to music.

Check these babies out:

[Link: www.amazon.com…]

Lifesavers and cheap.

632 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:14:39pm

re: #629 b_sharp

If you view life as set of interacting processes, then as soon as we produce self replicating complex molecules that pull energy from their environment, we’ve created life.

Ten years might just do it.

amoebas? complex life forms or artificial intelligence.

Could be very cool!

633 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:14:58pm

re: #602 Gus 802

But the Bible has been wrong in all scientific cases. Which is odd because once the Bible said the Earth was flat the sun revolves around the Earth yet most Christians accept that it is round the Earth revolves around the sun and the Bible was in error. And they all accept that you can’t “build a tower to the heavens.”

Burp

634 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:15:13pm

re: #615 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I love fucking with them about the necromancer who raises an army of the undead in the Bible.

Ezekiel was an interesting guy. If nothing else, he introduced the word now used for ‘electricity’ in Hebrew. We don’t know what it meant to him, but apparently it gathers around the throne of God, and it’s blue. Close enough for jazz.

I personally prefer Elijah’s pray-off with the priests of Ba’al. Although SOMEONE had to introduce some logic into another part of Elijah’s story for me by pointing out a possible vowel issue in the text.

635 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:15:35pm

re: #621 Walter L. Newton

A spherical earth is described in Isaiah 40:21-22—“the circle of the earth.”

Spherical or disk.

636 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:16:03pm

re: #629 b_sharp

If you view life as set of interacting processes, then as soon as we produce self replicating complex molecules that pull energy from their environment, we’ve created life.

Ten years might just do it.

Just a thought on that—-could we do something like that and solve our fossil fuel problem?

637 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:16:25pm

re: #620 Lidane

I read a few books on Kabbalah. It’s interesting, IMO. Never got any further than that, though. I’m not Jewish, so really understanding Kabbalah would be beyond me, and the celebrity version that people like Madonna follow is so obviously fake. It’s neat though.

It’s late, and I’d like to find you a better site, but I’m referring to PaRDeS which is the reading of the Torah on many levels. And you’re correct. Red string bracelets and $8 bottles of holy water have nothing to do with it :)

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

638 Single-handed sailor  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:16:35pm

re: #631 Conservative Moonbat

Check these babies out:

[Link: www.amazon.com…]

Lifesavers and cheap.

I’d need three because I’d drop at least one on the concrete floor in the garage. That’s what happened to my last archive drive.

639 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:19:48pm

re: #616 marjoriemoon

This is the meaning of Kabbalah, the deeper, esoteric or allegorical meanings. Abstract or spiritual.

The traditional teaching is that each verse of Torah has four types of meaning:

Peshat—the literal, or intended meaning, what the verse says.

Remez—the alluded-to meaning, what you learn if you read between the lines.

Drash—the interpreted meaning, the understanding you pull from the text

Sod—the mystical, or hidden meaning

(Conveniently, in Hebrew, this turns into the acronym ‘Pardes’, which means ‘orchard’, and by common literary allusion ‘paradise’.)

The idea that there can be one, single, literal understanding of what the text means is just antithetical to Jewish understanding of text.

640 Single-handed sailor  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:20:06pm

This is about where we are in creating life.

[Link: www.livescience.com…]

641 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:20:24pm

re: #624 Jadespring

This is one of the reasons that I really respect the way Jews approach the Bible (Torah). From my outside perspective it seems like they work with it as a living document. It’s ‘truth’ is more then just about it’s literal words.

I could be way off but that’s how it appears to me.

Exactly. I mean, we’re trying to wrap our heads around concepts that are way beyond us. Things that science is still exploring and I imagine will always be exploring.

And yes, why I really dig Judaism.

642 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:23:59pm

re: #630 mracb

I’m not even talking about downloading mp3s.

On iTunes there are hundreds and hundreds of online “radio” stations (a few really are broadcast stations) ready to be streamed, for free.

643 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:24:00pm

re: #636 ggt

Just a thought on that—-could we do something like that and solve our fossil fuel problem?

We don’t need to do that, existing life can be used. We still need to get away from carbon based energy.

644 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:24:07pm

re: #639 SanFranciscoZionist

The traditional teaching is that each verse of Torah has four types of meaning:

Peshat—the literal, or intended meaning, what the verse says.

Remez—the alluded-to meaning, what you learn if you read between the lines.

Drash—the interpreted meaning, the understanding you pull from the text

Sod—the mystical, or hidden meaning

(Conveniently, in Hebrew, this turns into the acronym ‘Pardes’, which means ‘orchard’, and by common literary allusion ‘paradise’.)

The idea that there can be one, single, literal understanding of what the text means is just antithetical to Jewish understanding of text.

Ya Ya Ya!

645 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:26:19pm

You religious types are just so weird.

646 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:26:36pm

re: #645 b_sharp

You religious types are just so weird.

Ya Ya Ya!

647 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:26:39pm

re: #645 b_sharp

You religious types are just so weird.

How so?

648 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:28:23pm

I haven’t set foot in a church except for weddings and funerals since I was 18. In fact, I’m an atheist. Still, I find religion an interesting topic of discussion. It’s had such an effect on the world that it’s impossible to ignore, even if I don’t believe in it myself.

649 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:28:42pm

Ugh. This Butterfinger © I just had kind of wiped me out.

650 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:29:21pm

re: #647 ggt

How so?

Because I can’t fathom how you think. That means you have to be weird.

651 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:29:28pm

re: #646 marjoriemoon

Ya Ya Ya!

To me, in a non-condemnatory approach, creationists are just humans are trying to find some safety and reassurance in a life that is full of disappointment, despair, and eventually death.

It’s not even a matter of intellect.

My working assertion is that creationism serves a social need among people who are desperately afraid of the world around them.

The exceptions to this would be certain creationist leaders who are clearly working the crowd for power. They are just plain immoral.

652 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:29:35pm

re: #639 SanFranciscoZionist

The traditional teaching is that each verse of Torah has four types of meaning:

Peshat—the literal, or intended meaning, what the verse says.

Remez—the alluded-to meaning, what you learn if you read between the lines.

Drash—the interpreted meaning, the understanding you pull from the text

Sod—the mystical, or hidden meaning

(Conveniently, in Hebrew, this turns into the acronym ‘Pardes’, which means ‘orchard’, and by common literary allusion ‘paradise’.)

The idea that there can be one, single, literal understanding of what the text means is just antithetical to Jewish understanding of text.

This is similar to how the Bible was approached in the Church I grew up in. Though not laid out this plainly. I went to Bible study quite a bit and the discussion usually went from literal meaning, to looking at the context that the passages occurred in, how we each interpreted it and what understanding could be drawn from it that was applicable to today or similarities to today. Interpretation could range from literal to allegorical and metaphorical. I tended to always end up looking at the political and social aspects.

653 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:32:07pm

I think what frustrates me most about the Religious Whackos is that such simple commandments —I mean it could be any plainer:

Do unto others as you would have done to you.

have to be qualifed and rationalized. First they objectify people and decide to whom that actually applies. Anyone not exactly like them is ruled out, by some strangled interpretation of scripture.

To enforce this they use some really whacked out version of an afterlife and then follow it up with punishment in this life. When the rest of society doesn’t co-operate, they try to use the law or justify taking matters into their own hands.

THey want a literal world, but can’t abide within their own rules. (I’m thinking of Dr. Tiller)

655 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:32:36pm

Ugh. What happened to NOVA? I miss the old “serious” NOVA.

656 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:32:36pm

re: #651 freetoken

To me, in a non-condemnatory approach, creationists are just humans are trying to find some safety and reassurance in a life that is full of disappointment, despair, and eventually death.

It’s not even a matter of intellect.

My working assertion is that creationism serves a social need among people who are desperately afraid of the world around them.

The exceptions to this would be certain creationist leaders who are clearly working the crowd for power. They are just plain immoral.

Indeed. My problem in general is the mixing of politics with religion (church and state). Religion has always been a good tool to control the masses, although that’s not really the intent. The intent is spiritual fulfillment, although I suppose most atheists would argue that point :)

657 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:33:18pm

re: #650 b_sharp

Because I can’t fathom how you think. That means you have to be weird.

Well, in my case it’s a LOVE all the branches philosophy.

658 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:35:33pm

re: #655 Gus 802

Ugh. What happened to NOVA? I miss the old “serious” NOVA.

BOOORRRING! lol

A little over-produced, but we still Tivo it faithfully.

659 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:35:59pm

re: #654 Gus 802

NOVA scienceNOW: Where Did We Come From | Preview | PBS

[Video]

OK, how the hell do I watch embedded YouTube on iPad

660 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:36:17pm

re: #659 b_sharp

OK, how the hell do I watch embedded YouTube on iPad

Got me.

661 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:36:55pm

re: #655 Gus 802

Ugh. What happened to NOVA? I miss the old “serious” NOVA.

I call it “sciencetainment”. There is almost no TV audience for serious science, so what some producers/media companies offer is a sort of hyped-adventure music-video mix. What usually happens is a handful of basic conclusions from science (such that meteorites could bring organic molecules to Earth) gets wrapped up in music and fast paced videos, with maybe a narrator throwing in quickly spoken sentences of 10 words or less.

662 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:37:12pm

re: #658 marjoriemoon

BOOORRRING! lol

A little over-produced, but we still Tivo it faithfully.

Old or new? I don’t like that “reality TV” shaky-cam style of the new one. Too goofy. It’s like watching “Reading Rainbow”.

663 freetoken  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:37:36pm

re: #659 b_sharp

OK, how the hell do I watch embedded YouTube on iPad

Don’t you need to set up Youtube to offer you HTML5 video, rather than Flash?

664 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:38:31pm

re: #661 freetoken

I call it “sciencetainment”. There is almost no TV audience for serious science, so what some producers/media companies offer is a sort of hyped-adventure music-video mix. What usually happens is a handful of basic conclusions from science (such that meteorites could bring organic molecules to Earth) gets wrapped up in music and fast paced videos, with maybe a narrator throwing in quickly spoken sentences of 10 words or less.

Yep. If I want music I’ll listen to music. Guess that’s what it’s become. A dorky music video.

665 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:39:00pm

re: #651 freetoken

To me, in a non-condemnatory approach, creationists are just humans are trying to find some safety and reassurance in a life that is full of disappointment, despair, and eventually death.

It’s not even a matter of intellect.

My working assertion is that creationism serves a social need among people who are desperately afraid of the world around them.

The exceptions to this would be certain creationist leaders who are clearly working the crowd for power. They are just plain immoral.

I’m not sure if it’s a social or personal need.

People have a lot invested in their concept of “God”. Some get seriously insulted when scientists or others discount their belief. There are those who are seriously rude in that.

I think beliefs about God are highly personal and don’t think they are anyone business. Some, I’d say those who are really grounded in their faith, really feel the need to defend their beliefs and go WAY overboard in doing so (i.e interfering with the science curriculum in schools)

666 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:39:12pm

re: #660 Gus 802

Got me.

I guess it’s time to RTFM.

667 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:39:59pm

best streaming radio station ever: [Link: bootliquor.com…]

country music the way it’s supposed to be

668 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:41:20pm

re: #662 Gus 802

Old or new? I don’t like that “reality TV” shaky-cam style of the new one. Too goofy. It’s like watching “Reading Rainbow”.

New, I believe. Yea, the shaky, reality style producing makes me crazy. I don’t watch them all. They did a good program on artificial intelligence the other day, the making of “Watson” by IBM, who will be competing on Jeopardy starting tomorrow night, I believe.

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com…]

669 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:41:52pm

re: #653 ggt

I think what frustrates me most about the Religious Whackos is that such simple commandments —I mean it could be any plainer:

have to be qualifed and rationalized. First they objectify people and decide to whom that actually applies. Anyone not exactly like them is ruled out, by some strangled interpretation of scripture.

It’s not just deciding to whom it applies. I’ve had many a religious conversation with literal fundies. One time I accidentally stumbled across a really religious right wing forum and posted something which I thought was pretty bland before I knew where I was. Got jumped on and ended up diving right in.
The number one response I got when I referenced that passage was something along the lines of “Well is I was mistaken as you I would WANT someone like me to tell me the truth even if it was harsh and brutal”. So in their minds they are treating people how they would want to be treated. If they were on the road to hell they would sure want to be set straight.

Another typical response to say something like expressing love and tolerance to homosexuals was “Who do you think you are? You’re trying to be more loving then God. That’s blashphemous.”

Figure that one out…..

670 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:43:43pm

re: #669 Jadespring

It’s not just deciding to whom it applies. I’ve had many a religious conversation with literal fundies. One time I accidentally stumbled across a really religious right wing forum and posted something which I thought was pretty bland before I knew where I was. Got jumped on and ended up diving right in.
The number one response I got when I referenced that passage was something along the lines of “Well is I was mistaken as you I would WANT someone like me to tell me the truth even if it was harsh and brutal”. So in their minds they are treating people how they would want to be treated. If they were on the road to hell they would sure want to be set straight.

Another typical response to say something like expressing love and tolerance to homosexuals was “Who do you think you are? You’re trying to be more loving then God. That’s blashphemous.”

Figure that one out…

I’d say they were already there.

671 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:43:49pm

re: #663 freetoken

Don’t you need to set up Youtube to offer you HTML5 video, rather than Flash?

Right.
I use four different systems to go on line. Do I have to change it each time?

That reminds me, why does logging in to LGF on a system log me off LGF on the other systems?

672 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:45:20pm

Goodnight folks.

673 Gus  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:46:07pm

Same here. Time to watch some Hulu or something. Later folks.

674 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:47:49pm

re: #669 Jadespring

It’s not just deciding to whom it applies. I’ve had many a religious conversation with literal fundies. One time I accidentally stumbled across a really religious right wing forum and posted something which I thought was pretty bland before I knew where I was. Got jumped on and ended up diving right in.
The number one response I got when I referenced that passage was something along the lines of “Well is I was mistaken as you I would WANT someone like me to tell me the truth even if it was harsh and brutal”. So in their minds they are treating people how they would want to be treated. If they were on the road to hell they would sure want to be set straight.

Another typical response to say something like expressing love and tolerance to homosexuals was “Who do you think you are? You’re trying to be more loving then God. That’s blashphemous.”

Figure that one out…

Really, they are trying to justify their own superiority. Nothing else.

More loving than God, indeed.

675 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:55:24pm

re: #674 ggt

More loving than God, indeed.

Yes I got accused of this all of the time there. I took it as a compliment. :)


Another thing I learned is that you can never win and argument or at least not in the conventional sense. Basically you won or got them to place where there was no where else to go when the being in league with or legalistic like Satan accusations came out. Can’t win by logical argument? SATAN!

Me: Woo!

676 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:59:55pm

re: #675 Jadespring

Yes I got accused of this all of the time there. I took it as a compliment. :)

Another thing I learned is that you can never win and argument or at least not in the conventional sense. Basically you won or got them to place where there was no where else to go when the being in league with or legalistic like Satan accusations came out. Can’t win by logical argument? SATAN!

Me: Woo!

probably off using the Socratic Method, try to plant seeds that may eventually take root.

677 Lidane  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:59:58pm

Time to read a bit before bed. Good night Lizards!

678 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 11:00:23pm

My bed-time too!

have a great night/morning all!

679 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 13, 2011 3:52:21am

re: #439 Stanley Sea

No Muslim Brotherhood involved. As of yet.

Just to follow up the mystery substance was confirmed by Hazmat crews as plain old pepper spray.

[Link: www.californiabeat.org…]

San Francisco Police officers and firefighters briefly cleared the Powell Street BART and MUNI Metro Station after numerous people were overcome by pepper spray, a fire dispatcher said.

Emergency personnel received a call about an unknown irritant that was disturbing passengers at the station shortly after 6 p.m., according to the fire department. Four of the affected victims — including two passengers and two MUNI Metro station agents — were sent to the hospital for treatment, but all were expected to recover, an agency spokesman said.

680 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 13, 2011 3:57:34am

re: #603 SanFranciscoZionist

Does the Bible say the earth is flat?

It really depends. If the intent of the authors is taken into account, then maybe yes. Are the passages re-interpretable? Also maybe yes.

[Link: www.lhup.edu…]

681 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 13, 2011 4:03:02am

re: #593 b_sharp

A literal reading requires a 6000 - 10000 year old Earth, while evolution requires significantly more. If evolution is correct then the Bible is wrong, meaning it is not the literal word of God.

While “10000” is sometimes thrown around, it’s (appr.) 6000 and no more, because the genealogies are fixed. If they’re not fixed and there are gaps, you can fit any number there.

682 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 13, 2011 4:04:27am

re: #598 Jadespring

My Mom would say well if you consider each day to be a millions of years then it works out pretty good.

She nor the Church is not a literal based one obviously.

She is wrong since the order of creation is then still wrong. It’s not about simply the time.

683 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Feb 13, 2011 4:07:40am

re: #633 Gus 802

Strictly speaking, I think there is a better case for biblical flat-earthism. Geocentric descriptions in the Bible can be explained as phenomenal language, which we still use (the Sun “sets”, etc.) and what revolves around what is, strictly speaking, dependent on the chosen point of reference.

684 stonesean  Sun, Feb 13, 2011 8:38:19am

Young Americans for Freedom

Young Americans for Liberty

“WE’RE the Peoples Front Of Judea!”


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