CBS News’ Lara Logan Assaulted in Egypt

Separated from her crew and attacked in Tahrir Square on the day Mubarak stepped down

This is an awful story; in Tahrir Square on the day Mubarak stepped down, CBS News reporter Lara Logan was separated from her crew, sexually assaulted, and beaten in a sustained attack that only ended when Egyptian soldiers stormed the mob. Here’s the CBS News statement.

(CBSNews) On Friday February 11, the day Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak stepped down, CBS correspondent Lara Logan was covering the jubilation in Tahrir Square for a 60 MINUTES story when she and her team and their security were surrounded by a dangerous element amidst the celebration. It was a mob of more than 200 people whipped into frenzy.

In the crush of the mob, she was separated from her crew. She was surrounded and suffered a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating before being saved by a group of women and an estimated 20 Egyptian soldiers. She reconnected with the CBS team, returned to her hotel and returned to the United States on the first flight the next morning. She is currently in the hospital recovering.

There will be no further comment from CBS News and Correspondent Logan and her family respectfully request privacy at this time.

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241 comments

1 mr.fusion  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:27:25pm

Just saw this on Drudge....clicked through and the first comment was

by rickre February 15, 2011 4:09 PM EST

ah yes. the religion of peace.

Ugh

2 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:27:42pm

I hope the desire for privacy is respected. I'm glad to see that among those who rescued her were women.

3 Sionainn  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:28:07pm

Thank goodness for the women and soldiers who saved her.

4 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:29:33pm

re: #1 mr.fusion

Just saw this on Drudge...clicked through and the first comment was

Ugh

Yes, because no woman in the US ever gets beaten and sexually assaulted by anyone other then Muslims.


///obviously

5 HappyWarrior  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:30:17pm

re: #1 mr.fusion

Just saw this on Drudge...clicked through and the first comment was

Ugh

So, I wonder what commentor has to say on the fact it was probably Muslims who saved her.

6 Kragar  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:31:05pm

re: #1 mr.fusion

Just saw this on Drudge...clicked through and the first comment was


Ugh

Douchebag.

7 recusancy  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:31:30pm

re: #1 mr.fusion

Why do you read Drudge?

8 S'latch  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:32:24pm

It is particularly a shame because most everyone has been very proud of these protesters. It seems there is always an evil element lurking in every crowd.

9 Kronocide  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:33:01pm

re: #1 mr.fusion

Just saw this on Drudge...clicked through and the first comment was....

Yes, use a beating and rape as pretext for justification of bigotry. No class at all.

Horrific story, just nasty all the way around. I'm glad she had saviors come to her aid.

10 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:34:04pm

Good lord, the comments at CBS News are freaking unbelievable. Why don't they delete some of that sick garbage?

Example:

by Bmoney1234 February 15, 2011 4:22 PM EST

MUSLIMS ARE, HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AND WILL ALWAYS BE SAVAGES. THE WEST HAS BEEN FIGHTING THESE PEOPLE FOR YEAR. WAKE UP

11 shutdown  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:35:25pm

re: #10 Charles

Good lord, the comments at CBS News are freaking unbelievable. Why don't they delete some of that sick garbage?

Example:

Flies always rush to the freshest crap.

12 Kronocide  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:37:01pm

re: #10 Charles

MUSLIMS ARE, HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AND WILL ALWAYS BE SAVAGES. THE WEST HAS BEEN FIGHTING THESE PEOPLE FOR YEAR. WAKE UP

There is little difference between the person writing that post and the 'savages' he potrays. The event is disgusting enough, the continued discussion of it continues to disgust me.

What's the matter with people?

13 Kragar  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:37:05pm

I particulary enjoy the comments that imply she should have expected it being a dumb blind liberal. Very classy.

14 shutdown  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:37:07pm

Meanwhile, Spurs are up 1-0 over Milan.

15 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:37:52pm

I was, and am, impressed by the reporters that actually went to the square to report. It made it harder for Mubarak to claim the crowd was different than it was.

As this shows us, it was courageous.

16 Interesting Times  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:38:20pm

Horrible :(

As to the culprits, remember all the prisoners who got out of jail earlier on? Wouldn't the most logical guess be that they were among the ones who assaulted her, taking full advantage of a chaotic situation?

17 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:38:52pm

re: #1 mr.fusion

Just saw this on Drudge...clicked through and the first comment was

Ugh

Because no one has ever been sexually assaulted and beaten by non-Muslims. Ever.

Eejits.

18 Kronocide  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:39:24pm

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I particulary enjoy the comments that imply she should have expected it being a dumb blind liberal. Very classy.

I think it's time to walk away from this thread and find something productive to do. I'm glad she got out and is back home. Aloha Lizards.

19 recusancy  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:39:33pm

It's sad to look back and read articles like this:Operation Desert Snipe Back when I was a "traitor".

20 recusancy  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:39:49pm

re: #19 recusancy

It's sad to look back and read articles like this:Operation Desert Snipe Back when I was a "traitor".

Woops.. that was meant for the thread below.

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:39:57pm

re: #5 HappyWarrior

So, I wonder what commentor has to say on the fact it was probably Muslims who saved her.

She was saved by the Church Ladies of Cairo, and the Special All-Copt Army Brigade.

//

22 engineer cat  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:40:05pm

holy moley

our prayers for her

23 HappyWarrior  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:40:12pm

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I particulary enjoy the comments that imply she should have expected it being a dumb blind liberal. Very classy.

I would say those are even worse than the comments attacking Muslims. No one and I mean no one deserves to get raped.

24 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:40:25pm

re: #8 Lawrence Schmerel

It is particularly a shame because most everyone has been very proud of these protesters. It seems there is always an evil element lurking in every crowd.

You pack a million people together, you're gonna get problems. And a crowd that big attracts predators.

25 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:42:25pm

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I particulary enjoy the comments that imply she should have expected it being a dumb blind liberal. Very classy.

"Look dude, just because YOU don't have the guts to be a front-line international reporter doesn't mean you get to rag on people who do when they get hurt."

26 palomino  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:42:58pm

re: #12 BigPapa

There is little difference between the person writing that post and the 'savages' he potrays. The event is disgusting enough, the continued discussion of it continues to disgust me.

What's the matter with people?

For these commenters, it's apparently not enough to demonize all members of one religion. Non-Muslims, like Logan, get the same treatment for simply showing some sympathy and respect towards the mostly Muslim population of Egypt.

It's the new paranoid zeitgeist on the right; they no longer have political opponents, just enemies.

27 Varek Raith  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:43:13pm

Dammit.

28 webevintage  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:43:50pm

Dear God.....

When she was missing I was worried about this happening.

29 Ericus58  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:43:57pm

Fuckin' Animals.
Damn, this makes me see red.

May Lara Logan find the Healing and Love to help her mend through this heinous event.

30 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:45:32pm

re: #25 SanFranciscoZionist

"Look dude, just because YOU don't have the guts to be a front-line international reporter doesn't mean you get to rag on people who do when they get hurt."

weekend warriors, fake tough guys

31 makeitstop  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:45:55pm

Words fail.

What happened to Lara Logan is horrible. Shame on those commenters on Drudge and CBS' site who can't drop the goddamn partisanship for even a second.

She showed more courage in just getting out of bed to do her job than any of those punk commenters will know in their entire lives.

32 Locker  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:45:58pm

re: #14 imp_62

Meanwhile, Spurs are up 1-0 over Milan.

Nice! I'm anxiously awaiting Barca and Arsenal tomorrow. My two favorite sides!

33 palomino  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:46:05pm

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I particulary enjoy the comments that imply she should have expected it being a dumb blind liberal. Very classy.

How do we even know she's a liberal? Is that just assumed because she works for CBS? Or because she's a reporter? More importantly, why does her political label even matter here? What horseshit.

34 Bulworth  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:46:54pm

Awful. Be well, Lara.

35 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:46:55pm

re: #31 makeitstop

Words fail.

What happened to Lara Logan is horrible. Shame on those commenters on Drudge and CBS' site who can't drop the goddamn partisanship for even a second.

She showed more courage in just getting out of bed to do her job than any of those punk commenters will know in their entire lives.

every day it just gets more and more apparent, the secret and hideous emotional lives of Americans who can now let it all out on comments on the internet

36 Kragar  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:46:59pm

Yeah, we all know is just those Muslims who are like that...

U.S. veterans sue Pentagon 'after they were raped and sexually abused by comrades'

Dumb liberals should have known better than to join the armed services.
/

37 Kragar  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:47:44pm

re: #33 palomino

How do we even know she's a liberal? Is that just assumed because she works for CBS? Or because she's a reporter? More importantly, why does her political label even matter here? What horseshit.

Duh, Reporter is just a code word for liberal. If she wasn't, she would be over at Fox.
/

38 Alexzander  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:47:54pm

Anyone watching the latest fallout from the HBGary story?

There is growing evidence the DoJ is involved with BoA in an attempt to ruin the professional and private life of Glenn Greenwald who supports Wikileaks.

See also this story on Forbes: HBGary Execs Run For Cover As Hacking Scandal Escalates
.

I know Greenwald isn't popular around here but I am glad this was uncovered as its a terrifying precedent (if it is the first time such a strategy has been planned that is.)

39 b_sharp  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:48:12pm

BBL.

I'm going to go get the wife.

/// Just so she can feed me.

40 shutdown  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:48:31pm

re: #32 Locker

Nice! I'm anxiously awaiting Barca and Arsenal tomorrow. My two favorite sides!

I love to watch Barca, but am a Gooner all the way...

41 webevintage  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:49:38pm

re: #33 palomino

How do we even know she's a liberal?

I guess unless one works for FOX they must be a lib in their eyes.

I've admired her willingness to put herself in dangerous situations to do her job and get the truth for a long time. Bad ass chick.

42 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:50:28pm

re: #38 Alexzander

Anyone watching the latest fallout from the HBGary story?

There is growing evidence the DoJ is involved with BoA in an attempt to ruin the professional and private life of Glenn Greenwald who supports Wikileaks.

See also this story on Forbes: HBGary Execs Run For Cover As Hacking Scandal Escalates
.

I know Greenwald isn't popular around here but I am glad this was uncovered as its a terrifying precedent (if it is the first time such a strategy has been planned that is.)

I was highly amused that HBGary was taken apart by Anonymous [Link: arstechnica.com...]

By late afternoon on the 5th, Barr was angry and perhaps a little scared, and he asked his PR person to "help moderate me because I am getting angry. I am planning on releasing a few names of folks that were already arrested." It's not clear that Barr ever did this, however; he admitted in another e-mail that he could get a bit "hot" in private, though he would generally cool down before going public.

Hours later, the attack escalated from some odd DDoS traffic to a full-scale break-in of HBGary Federal systems, one that showed tremendous skill. "What amazes me is, for a security company - you had such a basic SQL vulnerability on your website," wrote one Anonymous member later.

Days afterward, the company has still not managed to restore its complete website.

43 mr.fusion  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:51:55pm

re: #7 recusancy

Why do you read Drudge?

It's basically so I can see what the newest talking points are going to be....ever notice how when they show the video of El Rushbo doing his broadcast his computer is ALWAYS on Drudge? Seriously.....I mean ALWAYS on Drudge. That and I'm just always amazed at the discrepancy between his headlines and the actual stories. My pops uses Drudge as his main source of news so it makes it easier when he says "Did you see Obama allowed 40 Mexicans into the US?" I can say "Yea, he was meeting with the Mexican delegation."

Or maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment.

44 iossarian  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:52:00pm

re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yeah, we all know is just those Muslims who are like that...

U.S. veterans sue Pentagon 'after they were raped and sexually abused by comrades'

Dumb liberals should have known better than to join the armed services.
/

Why do you hate America, bringing that up like that?

45 Alexzander  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:53:07pm

re: #42 WindUpBird

Heh, yeah that ArsTechnica article makes for extremely fun reading.

46 mr.fusion  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:53:34pm

And this is timely, no?

"What do you mean, 'knowing that there are jailed journalists?'" Coulter answered. "I think there should be more jailed journalists."

Link

47 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:53:47pm
ronically, when Anonymous later commandeered Greg Hoglund’s separate security site rootkit.com, it did so through a spear phishing e-mail attack on Hoglund’s site administrator — who promptly turned off the site’s defenses and issued a new password (“Changeme123″) for a user he believed was Hoglund. Minutes later, the site was compromised.

After the Anonymous attacks and the release of Barr’s e-mails, his partners furiously distanced themselves from Barr’s work. Palantir CEO Dr. Alex Karp wrote, “We do not provide — nor do we have any plans to develop — offensive cyber capabilities… The right to free speech and the right to privacy are critical to a flourishing democracy. From its inception, Palantir Technologies has supported these ideals and demonstrated a commitment to building software that protects privacy and civil liberties. Furthermore, personally and on behalf of the entire company, I want to publicly apologize to progressive organizations in general, and Mr. Greenwald in particular, for any involvement that we may have had in these matters.”

Man, the backpedaling could be harnessed to provide power to Detroit

48 Locker  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:54:09pm

re: #40 imp_62

I love to watch Barca, but am a Gooner all the way...

He says, as I sit here in my number 23 Arshavin Home Side jersey. It's been almost 2 weeks and I'm still unable to get over the collapse against New Castle.

49 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:54:18pm

re: #45 Alexzander

Heh, yeah that ArsTechnica article makes for extremely fun reading.

My friends and I were just gathered around the monitor, reading that story, giggling like children

50 HappyWarrior  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:56:12pm

re: #46 mr.fusion

And this is timely, no?

Link

Can't say I am shocked. Coulter's mindset would fit in great for an authoritarian regime.

51 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:56:48pm

re: #46 mr.fusion

And this is timely, no?

Link

Is it wrong of me to wish that she was one of them?

52 recusancy  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:57:21pm

re: #51 jamesfirecat

Is it wrong of me to wish that she was one of them?

Yes.

53 RadicalModerate  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:58:19pm

re: #38 Alexzander

Anyone watching the latest fallout from the HBGary story?

There is growing evidence the DoJ is involved with BoA in an attempt to ruin the professional and private life of Glenn Greenwald who supports Wikileaks.

See also this story on Forbes: HBGary Execs Run For Cover As Hacking Scandal Escalates
.

I know Greenwald isn't popular around here but I am glad this was uncovered as its a terrifying precedent (if it is the first time such a strategy has been planned that is.)

It appears that one correction on your link may be needed.

It isn't the Department of Justice that appears to be directly involved in the smear campaign against Greenwald, but the US Chamber of Commerce - which is not a US agency, as some people mistakenly believe, but a private organization comprising of business owners.

54 Kragar  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:58:20pm

re: #51 jamesfirecat

Is it wrong of me to wish that she was one of them?

No jail can hold Ann. She would turn sideways and slide thru the bars.

55 shutdown  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:58:21pm

re: #48 Locker

He says, as I sit here in my number 23 Arshavin Home Side jersey. It's been almost 2 weeks and I'm still unable to get over the collapse against New Castle.

And the same day that ManU lost to Wolves. I could not believe my eyes. Third string goalie and all that, but still...

56 justaminute  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:58:24pm

I am afraid that she was just a convenient symbol for them to attack. The police and others have lost a lot of perceived power. The Egyptian military is as heavily invested in future outcomes as the Revolutionary Guard is in Iran. Do you really know who "they" are?

57 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:58:51pm

re: #50 HappyWarrior

Can't say I am shocked. Coulter's mindset would fit in great for an authoritarian regime.

Well, her fake mindset, it's a mindste n the sense that it's a stage persona

Ann Coulter hangs out in gay-run restaurants in the heart of San Francisco, it's all a scam, she's no more real than Alice Cooper's stage persona is real

58 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:59:22pm

re: #51 jamesfirecat

Is it wrong of me to wish that she was one of them?

Well, yes, in the same way it's wrong for her to wish it.

59 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:59:50pm

re: #53 RadicalModerate

It appears that one correction on your link may be needed.

It isn't the Department of Justice that appears to be directly involved in the smear campaign against Greenwald, but the US Chamber of Commerce - which is not a US agency, as some people mistakenly believe, but a private organization comprising of business owners.

YES.

Too bad the US Chamber of Commerce and their goonery were defeated by a 16 year old girl :D

60 HappyWarrior  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 1:59:53pm

re: #51 jamesfirecat

Is it wrong of me to wish that she was one of them?

Yeah, she's a terrible person but wouldn't deserve this. It is a shame though that Coulter has made millions off writing books that compare liberals to god knows what.

61 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:00:30pm

re: #60 HappyWarrior

Yeah, she's a terrible person but wouldn't deserve this. It is a shame though that Coulter has made millions off writing books that compare liberals to god knows what.

In the future, which is now, there will be a mini-Father Coughlin on every streetcorner

62 Alexzander  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:01:57pm

re: #53 RadicalModerate

Thanks for pointing that out.

63 engineer cat  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:02:43pm

re: #61 WindUpBird

In the future, which is now, there will be a mini-Father Coughlin on every streetcorner

it's ironic that the internet spreads ignorance faster than ever thought possbile

64 HappyWarrior  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:03:15pm

re: #61 WindUpBird

In the future, which is now, there will be a mini-Father Coughlin on every streetcorner

Yeah, Beck, Coulter, and the whole lot of them are very analgesia to Father Coughlin. When I go to the bookstore which is a lot, I stare at those books and wonder to myself, who reads that shit? When I get a new book I want something that will teach me something new or more about something I already know. Not "Oh my god liberals are evil." For that reason I've never been a big reader of Michael Moore either.

65 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:03:53pm

re: #63 engineer dog

it's ironic that the internet spreads ignorance faster than ever thought possbile

The internet makes it so much easier to coalesce into paranoid tribes where no contrary information can find its way to the tribe

Narrowcasting to cretins!

66 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:04:35pm

re: #64 HappyWarrior

Yeah, Beck, Coulter, and the whole lot of them are very analgesia to Father Coughlin. When I go to the bookstore which is a lot, I stare at those books and wonder to myself, who reads that shit? When I get a new book I want something that will teach me something new or more about something I already know. Not "Oh my god liberals are evil." For that reason I've never been a big reader of Michael Moore either.

I know who reads that shit, and I just elect not to go to the states and towns where those people reside

67 kmg  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:04:55pm

I hear that women in Egypt are regularly harassed and assaulted in public. As to the why it happens, I'll leave that to others to figure out.

68 Alexzander  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:05:55pm

re: #65 WindUpBird

The internet makes it so much easier to coalesce into paranoid tribes where no contrary information can find its way to the tribe

Narrowcasting to cretins!

This is why I think it is important to take part in several (politically diverse) online environments.

69 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:06:05pm

re: #67 kmg

Huh?

70 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:06:49pm

re: #67 kmg

As to the why it happens, I'll leave that to others to figure out.

Why is that?

71 kmg  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:07:08pm

@69

There is no huh about it. It's a problem. And I heard about it from Egyptians.

72 mr.fusion  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:07:52pm

re: #64 HappyWarrior

Yeah, Beck, Coulter, and the whole lot of them are very analgesia to Father Coughlin. When I go to the bookstore which is a lot, I stare at those books and wonder to myself, who reads that shit? When I get a new book I want something that will teach me something new or more about something I already know. Not "Oh my god liberals are evil." For that reason I've never been a big reader of Michael Moore either.

Whenever I think of this current crew this comes to mind:

Link

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:08:22pm

re: #67 kmg

I hear that women in Egypt are regularly harassed and assaulted in public. As to the why it happens, I'll leave that to others to figure out.

I understand that women in India are so regularly harassed and assaulted that they demanded separate women-only trains compartments. As to why that happens, I'll also leave to others to figure out.

(Hint, it doesn't start with an "I".)

74 RadicalModerate  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:08:25pm

re: #67 kmg

I hear that women in Egypt are regularly harassed and assaulted in public. As to the why it happens, I'll leave that to others to figure out.

Yeah, and it happens in places like Tokyo, Hong Kong, London, Mexico City, Rio de Janeiro, and Moscow too.

Your point?

75 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:08:46pm

re: #71 kmg

And violence against women is a problem in the US, as well.

What's your point?

76 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:08:52pm

re: #71 kmg

@69

There is no huh about it. It's a problem. And I heard about it from Egyptians.

Sure, I'm sure it is a problem. It's a big problem, a lot of places.

77 kmg  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:10:24pm

Maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe it has to do with societies where women are not considered equal to men or are not valued like men. Yeah, women are raped in North America and women are beaten by their husbands. But I have no fears walking down the street where I live, but would be fearful to do it in a large city in Egypt. Now if the if people have a problem hearing me say that, then tough.

78 Kragar  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:10:30pm

re: #75 Obdicut

And violence against women is a problem in the US, as well.

What's your point?

MUSLIMS!!!11!ELEVENTY!1

79 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:11:18pm

re: #77 kmg

Maybe it has to do with societies where women are not considered equal to men or are not valued like men.

Are you talking about South Dakota?

80 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:11:24pm

I read some stuff during the past week from some women in Egypt. They said it was actually nicer when the police were off the streets or otherwise engaged as they felt safer walking down the streets and didn't get harassed as much.

I'll leave people to figure that one out too. Like SF comments about India it doesn't start with "I."

I could also talk about my friends and cousin's experience in Italy. No "I" there either.

81 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:12:06pm

Hey all, I get to be here for a short while.

How is everything?

82 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:12:36pm

re: #76 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure, I'm sure it is a problem. It's a big problem, a lot of places.

Sandmonkey's take.

83 engineer cat  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:13:27pm

can i haz o.t.?

by this time in the 2008 election cycle, all the major contenders had declared

if smiley poodle doesn't run, then it's mooselini and a 48 state loss for the gop!

whassamatter with these republican hopefuls? askeered to run?

84 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:13:59pm

re: #77 kmg

Maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe it has to do with societies where women are not considered equal to men or are not valued like men. Yeah, women are raped in North America and women are beaten by their husbands. But I have no fears walking down the street where I live, but would be fearful to do it in a large city in Egypt. Now if the if people have a problem hearing me say that, then tough.

I don't have a problem with saying that in a lot of places, women are in danger in public places, and odds are that many parts of Egypt are some of those places.

However, this wasn't a normal daily situation, it was a bring-down-the-goverment-level mob scene, so I'm not sure much of a connection can be made to normal everyday cultural patterns.

85 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:14:09pm

re: #81 ggt

That Mitchell and Webb Look is brilliant.

86 engineer cat  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:14:10pm

re: #68 Alexzander

This is why I think it is important to take part in several (politically diverse) online environments.

most right wing sites will ban contrary opinions in an augenblick

87 ozbloke  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:14:43pm

re: #71 kmg

@69

There is no huh about it. It's a problem. And I heard about it from Egyptians.

Well you are now hearing the same thing about Americans from Americans.
Its a real problem, I leave that to you to figure out.

88 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:15:08pm

re: #77 kmg

Maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe it has to do with societies where women are not considered equal to men or are not valued like men. Yeah, women are raped in North America and women are beaten by their husbands. But I have no fears walking down the street where I live, but would be fearful to do it in a large city in Egypt. Now if the if people have a problem hearing me say that, then tough.

That's great that you feel safe where you are. Not the case in all places in NA though. There are places I wouldn't walk when I lived in a couple of cities.

89 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:16:34pm

re: #82 researchok

Man, those comments got racist and bigoted quickly.

90 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:16:35pm

re: #82 researchok

Sandmonkey's take.

Ggghah.

Reminds me of this, on a larger scale.

Being a woman is damn dangerous. End of story.

91 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:16:47pm

re: #88 Jadespring

Or bars that I would go into for that matter.

Ever been to a frat party? Yuck. Did that once. Never went to one again.

92 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:17:14pm

re: #85 Obdicut

That Mitchell and Webb Look is brilliant.

Like this?

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:17:18pm

re: #83 engineer dog

can i haz o.t.?

by this time in the 2008 election cycle, all the major contenders had declared

if smiley poodle doesn't run, then it's mooselini and a 48 state loss for the gop!

whassamatter with these republican hopefuls? askeered to run?

No one one who can actually the presidency win wants to run this round, because they probably won't win.

94 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:17:27pm

re: #83 engineer dog

can i haz o.t.?

by this time in the 2008 election cycle, all the major contenders had declared

if smiley poodle doesn't run, then it's mooselini and a 48 state loss for the gop!

whassamatter with these republican hopefuls? askeered to run?


The must keep their Fox paycheck. Don't want to give up that easy platform/money.

95 justaminute  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:17:42pm

re: #77 kmg

Maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe it has to do with societies where women are not considered equal to men or are not valued like men. Yeah, women are raped in North America and women are beaten by their husbands. But I have no fears walking down the street where I live, but would be fearful to do it in a large city in Egypt. Now if the if people have a problem hearing me say that, then tough.

I've walked down the streets of many Middle Eastern cities and never had a problem and I am a woman with blond hair and a "Okie American accent." The only time I have ever been nervous was at a gas station with a couple of drunk Texans.

96 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:17:45pm

Speaking of assault...

Gates, Rumsfeld Sued Over U.S. Military's Rape Epidemic


A landmark lawsuit filed Tuesday against Defense Secretary Robert Gates and his predecessor, Donald Rumsfeld, alleges that the military's repeated failures to take action in rape cases created a culture where violence against women was tolerated, violating the plaintiffs’ Constitutional rights.

“There are three types of women in the Army,” says Rebecca Havrilla, a former sergeant and explosive-ordnance-disposal technician. “Bitch, dyke, and whore.” During the four years that Havrilla was on active duty, she was called all three—by fellow soldiers, team leaders, even unit commanders. Once, during a sexual-assault prevention training, the 28-year-old South Carolina native claims, she watched a fellow soldier—male—strip naked and dance on top of a table as the rest of the team laughed. While deployed in Afghanistan, Havrilla spent four months working under a man she alleges bit her neck, pulled her into his bed, and grabbed her butt and waist—on a daily basis. When, on the last day of her deployment, she alleges she was raped by a soldier she considered a friend, it was, she says, “the icing on the cake.”

97 Locker  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:18:26pm

re: #55 imp_62

And the same day that ManU lost to Wolves. I could not believe my eyes. Third string goalie and all that, but still...

Ahaha the only thing that made that "draw" easier to take was Man U going down to Wolves. No Invincibles for them this year.

98 Kragar  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:18:30pm

You know, I'm a US citizen and there are plenty of large cities in the US I wouldn't feel safe in at certain times. Saying this is just what Egyptians do is full of crap.

99 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:19:06pm

The bizarre thing is that if Laura had gotten pregnant as a result of the sexual assault, many of the conservative bigots now using this incident as another excuse to paint all Muslims into a woman hating corner would see it as God's will, and oppose her right to control her body.

100 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:19:19pm

re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist

Ggghah.

Reminds me of this, on a larger scale.

Being a woman is damn dangerous. End of story.

The words 'horror show' come to mind.

101 Locker  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:19:50pm

re: #57 WindUpBird

Well, her fake mindset, it's a mindste n the sense that it's a stage persona

Ann Coulter hangs out in gay-run restaurants in the heart of San Francisco, it's all a scam, she's no more real than Alice Cooper's stage persona is real

She's definitely a fag hag and I've always thought she was just an actor who never breaks character. Gonna be hard to come back to the other side though for as bad as she's been while "in character".

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:20:47pm

re: #87 ozbloke

Well you are now hearing the same thing about Americans from Americans.
Its a real problem, I leave that to you to figure out.

This happened a couple of miles from my home, across a football field from the school where I used to work.

And believe me, in a lot of Richmond, women don't want to walk on the streets alone.

There was a sexual assault at the school I did my student teaching at, and one at our local middle school.

This is not to say that harassment and sexual assault are not MUCH bigger problems in many parts of the world, and that the Arab world has a lousy record on women's rights--but they are also damn near universal.

103 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:21:06pm

Until rape is considered a crime on the level of murder, it will not be taken seriously.

just my .02.

104 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:21:32pm

re: #89 Obdicut

Man, those comments got racist and bigoted quickly.


I saw that.

That's as depressing as the post itself.

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:21:35pm

re: #93 SanFranciscoZionist

No one one who can actually the presidency win wants to run this round, because they probably won't win.

No one who can actually WIN THE PRESIDENCY.

Why did I suddenly Yiddish begin to gespeak?

106 engineer cat  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:23:20pm

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

No one who can actually WIN THE PRESIDENCY.

Why did I suddenly Yiddish begin to gespeak?

throw mama from the train a kiss!

(a person wouldn't die from it...)

107 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:23:26pm

re: #103 ggt

Until rape is considered a crime on the level of murder, it will not be taken seriously.

just my .02.

Read a column once in Guns and Ammo where the writer opined that as long as AIDS is still uncurable, he considered attempted rape as attempted murder, and suggested that women respond accordingly.

108 Gus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:23:28pm

Yes the stupid commentators brought to the CBS News site from Drudge. Here's some facts on the top ten nations with rapes per capita from Nationmaster:

1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people

None of these are "Muslim countries". In fact most of these would be considered "Christian countries".

109 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:23:46pm

Rape, IMHO, is a form of slavery. Which also should be on par with murder in our legal system.

In a world that, supossedly, puts civil rights on a pedestal, we have a terrible track record on the basics.

110 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:24:11pm

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

This happened a couple of miles from my home, across a football field from the school where I used to work.

And believe me, in a lot of Richmond, women don't want to walk on the streets alone.

There was a sexual assault at the school I did my student teaching at, and one at our local middle school.

This is not to say that harassment and sexual assault are not MUCH bigger problems in many parts of the world, and that the Arab world has a lousy record on women's rights--but they are also damn near universal.

We've devalued sexuality into a commodity. While that isn't the only cause, it is a major contributor to the problem.

We teach the mechanics but not the values and responsibilities of a relationship.

111 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:24:24pm

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

It happens. Something came over you maybe. So long as its not a dybbuk, nu?

112 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:24:54pm

re: #108 Gus 802

Yes the stupid commentators brought to the CBS News site from Drudge. Here's some facts on the top ten nations with rapes per capita from Nationmaster:

1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people

None of these are "Muslim countries". In fact most of these would be considered "Christian countries".

Considering the definition of Rape differs in different culture and, of call crimes, it is probably the least reported to authorities, I don't think those figures reflect reality.

113 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:25:28pm

re: #108 Gus 802

Yes the stupid commentators brought to the CBS News site from Drudge. Here's some facts on the top ten nations with rapes per capita from Nationmaster:

1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people

None of these are "Muslim countries". In fact most of these would be considered "Christian countries".

I do wonder about the level of reporting in some countries.

In many places reporting rape/assault is almost non existent, especially in shame based societies.

114 Gus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:25:33pm

re: #112 ggt

Considering the definition of Rape differs in different culture and, of call crimes, it is probably the least reported to authorities, I don't think those figures reflect reality.

Ugh. I knew that was going to come up.

Well, that's how the facts stand.

115 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:26:08pm

re: #112 ggt

Considering the definition of Rape differs in different culture and, of call crimes, it is probably the least reported to authorities, I don't think those figures reflect reality.

ftfme

116 Winny Spencer  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:26:45pm

re: #114 Gus 802

Ugh. I knew that was going to come up.

Well, that's how the facts stand.

Ugh? His comment is correct.

117 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:26:59pm

re: #113 researchok

I'm guessing they aren't reported often here either.

I hope there is a rape room in hell for rapists.

118 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:27:05pm

re: #110 researchok

Rape and sexual assault has been an endemic problem for all of human history.

I don't think that making sexuality into a 'commodity' has much to do with it. It's more the whole 'celebrating violent male sexuality' problem, and 'treating women who complain of rape like whores' problem.

119 BishopX  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:27:08pm

re: #110 researchok

We've devalued sexuality into a commodity. While that isn't the only cause, it is a major contributor to the problem.

We teach the mechanics but not the values and responsibilities of a relationship.

Rape, especially gang rape, isn't about sex. It's about power.

120 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:27:11pm

re: #114 Gus 802

Ugh. I knew that was going to come up.

Well, that's how the facts stand.

Do Syria, China and KSA report? Would you really believe the figures they gave?

121 Kruk  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:27:40pm

Thoughts and prayers for Lara Logan. I think we forget sometimes what reporters brave so we can get news beamed into our living rooms.

122 Gus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:27:52pm

re: #116 Winny Spencer

Ugh? His comment is correct.

Her comment. Yes, ugh. I'm not going to sit here and go through the definitions of rape across nation boundaries. That same nuance can be applied to the USA and not in "our" favor.

123 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:27:53pm

re: #118 Obdicut

Rape and sexual assault has been an endemic problem for all of human history.

I don't think that making sexuality into a 'commodity' has much to do with it. It's more the whole 'celebrating violent male sexuality' problem, and 'treating women who complain of rape like whores' problem.

It is treating another person as if they are property. It is slavery.

124 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:29:25pm

re: #123 ggt

It is treating another person as if they are property. It is slavery.

And a method of control and terrorism against the female population. Rape is used against labor organizers in a lot of countries.

Yay humanity.

125 ozbloke  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:29:40pm

re: #108 Gus 802

Yes the stupid commentators brought to the CBS News site from Drudge. Here's some facts on the top ten nations with rapes per capita from Nationmaster:

1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people

None of these are "Muslim countries". In fact most of these would be considered "Christian countries".

I note we are third on this list (I'm an Aussie).

But its ok we are working on the issues.
Abbott backs anti-Muslim petition MP

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has backed ACT Liberal Senator Gary Humphries, who tabled a petition calling for a moratorium on Muslim immigration.

The petition, signed by three people in Sydney, calls for a review of immigration policy be undertaken to ensure priority is given to Christians.

126 Kruk  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:30:16pm

re: #73 SanFranciscoZionist

I understand that women in India are so regularly harassed and assaulted that they demanded separate women-only trains compartments. As to why that happens, I'll also leave to others to figure out.

(Hint, it doesn't start with an "I".)

My wife grew up in Sri Lanka, and the stories she tells of what women and girls have to endure in any public space would make your hair stand on end.

127 Winny Spencer  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:30:32pm

re: #122 Gus 802

Her comment. Yes, ugh. I'm not going to sit here and go through the definitions of rape across nation boundaries. That same nuance can be applied to the USA and not in "our" favor.

If you want to believe that women are more oppressed in the West than in the Muslim world, then go ahead.

128 Kragar  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:30:58pm

Hosni Mubarak used last 18 days in power to secure his fortune

The former Egyptian president is accused of amassing a fortune of more than £3 billion - although some suggest it could be as much as £40 billion - during his 30 years in power. It is claimed his wealth was tied up in foreign banks, investments, bullion and properties in London, New York, Paris and Beverly Hills.

In the knowledge his downfall was imminent, Mr Mubarak is understood to have attempted to place his assets out of reach of potential investigators.

On Friday night Swiss authorities announced they were freezing any assets Mubarak and his family may hold in the country's banks while pressure was growing for the UK to do the same. Mr Mubarak has strong connections to London and it is thought many millions of pounds are stashed in the UK.

But a senior Western intelligence source claimed that Mubarak had begun moving his fortune in recent weeks.

"We're aware of some urgent conversations within the Mubarak family about how to save these assets," said the source, "And we think their financial advisers have moved some of the money around. If he had real money in Zurich, it may be gone by now."

129 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:31:20pm

re: #118 Obdicut

Rape and sexual assault has been an endemic problem for all of human history.

I don't think that making sexuality into a 'commodity' has much to do with it. It's more the whole 'celebrating violent male sexuality' problem, and 'treating women who complain of rape like whores' problem.

All true.

But I was careful to note that devaluing sexuality is a contributory and not the only factor.

As the father of a daughter I can tell you I was astounded at some of the things I heard as she was growing up. Kids as young as 12-13 were engaging in sex and within a few years, some girls used sex to secure dates, etc.

Have you seen this?

130 Gus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:31:27pm

re: #127 Winny Spencer

If you want to believe that women are more oppressed in the West than in the Muslim world, then go ahead.

Uh. Where did you see me note anything about "women are more oppressed" in the West?

Touchy are we?

131 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:31:34pm

re: #127 Winny Spencer

If you want to believe that women are more oppressed in the West than in the Muslim world, then go ahead.

Well you might have a point if that was what was said, by Gus or anyone.

It wasn't though.

132 Gus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:32:27pm

re: #131 Jadespring

Well you might have a point if that was what was said, by Gus or anyone.

It wasn't though.

Thanks. Yeah, guess he must be reading things I didn't type. Or something.

133 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:32:38pm

re: #117 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm guessing they aren't reported often here either.

I hope there is a rape room in hell for rapists.

As father of daughter you can be sure that is exactly how I feel.

134 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:34:12pm

re: #129 researchok

The thing is, this has been around for a long time. Child prostitution was a huge problem in Victorian society. It used to mainly be confined to the 'lower' classes; that's the main difference.

I don't see a ton of difference between foisting a hypersexualized image on women and foisting a desexualized image on them. Both of them wind up fucking the women over sexually and allowing systematized rape.

135 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:34:47pm

OT: Has anyone seen the film 'Restrepo'?

136 Winny Spencer  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:36:04pm

re: #132 Gus 802

Thanks. Yeah, guess he must be reading things I didn't type. Or something.

So what did you intend to prove by quoting those statistics and then dismissing the obvious flaw of those stats that was pointed out by ggt?

137 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:36:43pm

re: #134 Obdicut

The thing is, this has been around for a long time. Child prostitution was a huge problem in Victorian society. It used to mainly be confined to the 'lower' classes; that's the main difference.

I don't see a ton of difference between foisting a hypersexualized image on women and foisting a desexualized image on them. Both of them wind up fucking the women over sexually and allowing systematized rape.

The media has changed the landscape, I believe.

All kids today, regardless of 'class' are exposed 24/7 to what is often an unhealthy focus on sex.

And then there is the internet (and yes, parents need to be more responsible).

138 lostlakehiker  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:37:56pm

The problem here is that it wasn't an individual thing, but a mob. My guess is that the instigators were agents provocateur, Mubarak supporters watching their chance. When it became clear to them that their side had lost, they "vented".

What is the mindset of a rapist? In general, violence and aggression flow out of anger, an impulse for revenge, that sort of thing. So I'm guessing the rapists were part of the losing side and had bought into Mubarak's line that it was the fault of foreigners stirring up trouble.

His partisans had already a long track record of criminal violence. They did most of the killing during the revolution. Many were recruited from the ranks of common criminals. So we have a different logic. Not: it figures, they're Muslim...it doesn't figure. Instead, it figures, what do you expect from frustrated loser goons?

139 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:38:08pm

re: #108 Gus 802

Yes the stupid commentators brought to the CBS News site from Drudge. Here's some facts on the top ten nations with rapes per capita from Nationmaster:

1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people

None of these are "Muslim countries". In fact most of these would be considered "Christian countries".

To be fair, there's a reportage issue with anything like this, also a matter of war zones--I expect many parts of Central Africa simply have no statistics at all.

140 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:38:35pm

re: #137 researchok

Sure. But in the bad old days, the problem was the opposite; the truth about sex was hidden from kids, if they were upper or middle class, and the assumption was made of lower class women that they were available for sex, especially if you were upper class. It was very hard for a lower-class woman to get a rape charge against an upper-class man.

Which fucks them up more is an academic debate. The constant throughout this has been the celebration of aggressive, predatory male sexuality.

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:38:53pm

re: #110 researchok

We've devalued sexuality into a commodity. While that isn't the only cause, it is a major contributor to the problem.

We teach the mechanics but not the values and responsibilities of a relationship.

Truly, I don't think this is anything new. Sexuality has been a commodity for a very, very long time.

142 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:38:57pm

re: #136 Winny Spencer

So what did you intend to prove by quoting those statistics and then dismissing the obvious flaw of those stats that was pointed out by ggt?

The post/comment is a starting point.

As Gus notes, even here we can'y agree on how to define rape.

The fact that we're talking about it is a good thing. Rape is not about numbers.

143 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:39:03pm

re: #136 Winny Spencer

So what did you intend to prove by quoting those statistics and then dismissing the obvious flaw of those stats that was pointed out by ggt?

The point was to give an example of how rape and 'sexual assault' are hardly Muslim only issues and only issues in Muslim countries.

If you actually take time to read the discussion you'll see it was spawned by comments where people were saying that raping and assaulting was a Muslim thing.

It's not.

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:39:22pm

re: #111 Obdicut

It happens. Something came over you maybe. So long as its not a dybbuk, nu?

I just edited the sentence, and did it without realizing the verb had been transposed.

145 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:39:43pm

re: #136 Winny Spencer

So what did you intend to prove by quoting those statistics and then dismissing the obvious flaw of those stats that was pointed out by ggt?

I didn't see my comments as being dismissed. I was disappointed at Gus's acceptance of the information. It may be what is out there, but it isn't enough on which to debate on or create policy from.

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:39:52pm

re: #114 Gus 802

Ugh. I knew that was going to come up.

Well, that's how the facts stand.

South Africa, reportedly, is having a hideous problem.

147 Gus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:40:11pm

re: #136 Winny Spencer

So what did you intend to prove by quoting those statistics and then dismissing the obvious flaw of those stats that was pointed out by ggt?

That rape and Islamic countries are not corollary. Want me to go through the list of serial rapists in the USA? Perhaps Richard Ramirez the notorious "Night Stalker"? There are some notorious serial rapists known to have raped and murdered 100s of women although not convicted on all alleged counts. Want to check on the stats of Mexico which aren't reported there?

148 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:40:36pm

re: #140 Obdicut

Sure. But in the bad old days, the problem was the opposite; the truth about sex was hidden from kids, if they were upper or middle class, and the assumption was made of lower class women that they were available for sex, especially if you were upper class. It was very hard for a lower-class woman to get a rape charge against an upper-class man.

Which fucks them up more is an academic debate. The constant throughout this has been the celebration of aggressive, predatory male sexuality.

Males have always been predatory. That hasn't changed (bio/hard wire)

What has changed is everything else.

I don't know what the answer is. I really don't.

149 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:40:51pm

re: #137 researchok

The media has changed the landscape, I believe.

All kids today, regardless of 'class' are exposed 24/7 to what is often an unhealthy focus on sex.

And then there is the internet (and yes, parents need to be more responsible).

What was "unhealthy" is the way we used to treat women in America legally. Like in the 90's, in North Carolina, where husbands were still given a spousal exemption for rape.

That's more "unhealthy" than any media anywhere, regardless of the hazy vision of nostalgia and the "good old days."

150 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:41:02pm

re: #143 Jadespring

Women are absolutely more oppressed in Muslim countries in the Middle East than they are in the US and other Western countries. Absolutely.

Strangely enough, that was a cause on the feminist left for a long, long time before the right suddenly discovered they cared about women's rights in the Middle East.

I think, for example, the rape statistics in Saudi Arabia probably cover up the massive amount of abuse and rape committed against foreign domestic servants.

The rate of rape in our society is still a tragedy

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:41:03pm

re: #127 Winny Spencer

If you want to believe that women are more oppressed in the West than in the Muslim world, then go ahead.

I don't think that was alleged by anyone.

152 Winny Spencer  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:42:24pm

re: #148 researchok

Males have always been predatory. That hasn't changed (bio/hard wire)

What has changed is everything else.

I don't know what the answer is. I really don't.

Well, as hard-wired as it may be, most of us aren't rapists.

153 Mr Pancakes  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:42:31pm

re: #139 SanFranciscoZionist

To be fair, there's a reportage issue with anything like this, also a matter of war zones--I expect many parts of Central Africa simply have no statistics at all.

Yea I was wondering about that list too...... per capita Canada is higher than Mexico which is not even on the list?

154 webevintage  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:42:39pm

re: #67 kmg

I hear that women in Egypt are regularly harassed and assaulted in public. As to the why it happens, I'll leave that to others to figure out.

Of course no woman in America is ever regularly harassed and assaulted are they?
Hell just a few weeks ago the GOP House was floating a bill that would re-define what rape is.

155 Gus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:42:54pm

re: #143 Jadespring

The point was to give an example of how rape and 'sexual assault' are hardly Muslim only issues and only issues in Muslim countries.

If you actually take time to read the discussion you'll see it was spawned by comments where people were saying that raping and assaulting was a Muslim thing.

It's not.

It fits into the narrative? "Only Muslim countries have a problem with rape" alongside other fallacies.

156 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:43:23pm

re: #148 researchok

Males have always been predatory. That hasn't changed (bio/hard wire)

What has changed is everything else.

I don't know what the answer is. I really don't.

I'm sorry, but we're humans. We're above bio/hardware. That's why we don't kill each other's children to ensure our genetic supremacy. We don't have to continue to celebrate the ugly side of male sexuality.

What I am also saying is that I don't think that there is more of a problem with sexual assault and rape these days; I think there's less of a problem. Still a huge problem, but now that women can actually admit to having been raped without being seen (except in the more benighted communities) as 'ruined', we've been able to start fighting back more strongly against rape.

Of course, everyone jokes and laughs about rape in the prison system, which is fucking shameful of us too.

157 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:43:35pm

re: #150 Obdicut

Women are absolutely more oppressed in Muslim countries in the Middle East than they are in the US and other Western countries. Absolutely.

Strangely enough, that was a cause on the feminist left for a long, long time before the right suddenly discovered they cared about women's rights in the Middle East.

I think, for example, the rape statistics in Saudi Arabia probably cover up the massive amount of abuse and rape committed against foreign domestic servants.

The rate of rape in our society is still a tragedy

I completely agree that women in general are more oppressed in Muslim countries. Opression is hardly just about rape and assaults a well. So no quibble there. It wasn't, until now what was being discussed though.

158 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:43:51pm

re: #155 Gus 802

It fits into the narrative? "Only Muslim countries have a problem with rape" alongside other fallacies.

I think they probably do have a problem with rape, as we define rape.

159 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:43:54pm

re: #134 Obdicut

The thing is, this has been around for a long time. Child prostitution was a huge problem in Victorian society. It used to mainly be confined to the 'lower' classes; that's the main difference.

Correction, the children of the lower classes were the prostitutes. Men of all social backgrounds abused them.

Also, I suspect the in-family sexual abuse rates of the Victorians were probably horrific, if we could get any sound information. Freud uncovered a little of it, then backpedalled furiously, and ended up doing incredible damage in the process.

160 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:44:16pm

re: #149 WindUpBird

What was "unhealthy" is the way we used to treat women in America legally. Like in the 90's, in North Carolina, where husbands were still given a spousal exemption for rape.

That's more "unhealthy" than any media anywhere, regardless of the hazy vision of nostalgia and the "good old days."

I disagree with your conclusion, though I agree with some of your points.

12. 13 and 14 year olds having sex is not a good thing. I can't imagine anyone would think otherwise.

I do believe we need to teach sex ed, but not just the mechanics. There has to be equal weight put on values, responsibility and relationships.

I will say this- we are in a tough place right now.

161 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:44:50pm

re: #155 Gus 802

It fits into the narrative? "Only Muslim countries have a problem with rape" alongside other fallacies.


It totally does! It gets the racism going and it excuses the west. "Hey ladies, maybe we'll give you a painful and invasive procedure against your will, ho ho but at least we're not raping you in public! Go america! Setting the bar higher!"

162 Gus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:45:37pm

re: #161 WindUpBird

It totally does! It gets the racism going and it excuses the west. "Hey ladies, maybe we'll give you a painful and invasive procedure against your will, ho ho but at least we're not raping you in public! Go america! Setting the bar higher!"

USA! USA! USA!

"There has to be something wrong with those statistics!"

/

163 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:45:40pm

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist

Absolutely. People should remember the enormous amount of sexual assault that's committed inside the family, or by trusted friends, and not by boyfriends/strangers etc.

164 Winny Spencer  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:45:40pm

re: #155 Gus 802

It fits into the narrative? "Only Muslim countries have a problem with rape" alongside other fallacies.

Ok, I overreacted and apologize to Gus.

Those comments are indeed disgusting.

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:46:10pm

re: #148 researchok

Males have always been predatory. That hasn't changed (bio/hard wire)

What has changed is everything else.

I don't know what the answer is. I really don't.

I think very specific things have changes. Some good, some bad. We're in the middle of an enormous societal change in how sexuality is perceived.

166 Winny Spencer  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:46:30pm

re: #162 Gus 802

USA! USA! USA!

"There has to be something wrong with those statistics!"

/

You really think the reservation ggt presented is unreasonable?

167 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:48:11pm

re: #156 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but we're humans. We're above bio/hardware. That's why we don't kill each other's children to ensure our genetic supremacy. We don't have to continue to celebrate the ugly side of male sexuality.

What I am also saying is that I don't think that there is more of a problem with sexual assault and rape these days; I think there's less of a problem. Still a huge problem, but now that women can actually admit to having been raped without being seen (except in the more benighted communities) as 'ruined', we've been able to start fighting back more strongly against rape.

Of course, everyone jokes and laughs about rape in the prison system, which is fucking shameful of us too.

I can't deny the biology.

Now, what you are saying is also true- we ought to be above that. However, that requires a cultural and moral foundation.

My issue is not so much rape (we can all agree on the ugliness and violence of that) but rather the hypersexualiztion of kids.

168 Winny Spencer  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:48:22pm

re: #166 Winny Spencer

You really think the reservation ggt presented is unreasonable?

Or did it simply not fit into your false equivalence-narrative.

169 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:49:12pm

re: #133 researchok

As father of daughter you can be sure that is exactly how I feel.

My daughter (20 and flippin' gorgeous) was at a concert last weekend. A guy standing hear her kept "bumping" into her. Hands "accidentally" touched her butt. She told him several times to back up.

He touched her once too many times. She knocked him out cold, broke his nose.

He was carried out by EMT's.

I am serious.

170 Gus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:49:13pm

re: #168 Winny Spencer

Or did it simply not fit into your false equivalence-narrative.

Now it's false equivalence? OK, do me a favor and stop addressing me. Asshole.

171 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:49:18pm

I'm remembering some of the "tribal" justice we've heard about--in which the rape of a female family member being the punishment for a male member of the family's crime. I wish I could remember then country. I think there was some debate as to whether this was age-old tribal justice or truly Islamic justice.

172 Winny Spencer  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:49:35pm

re: #156 Obdicut

Great comment.

173 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:50:14pm

re: #160 researchok

I disagree with your conclusion, though I agree with some of your points.

12. 13 and 14 year olds having sex is not a good thing. I can't imagine anyone would think otherwise.

I do believe we need to teach sex ed, but not just the mechanics. There has to be equal weight put on values, responsibility and relationships.

I will say this- we are in a tough place right now.

its not a "good" thing, but it is a thing that happens all the damn time. Not to go into the gory details, but I lost my virginity in your 12-14 gamut, and so did a lot of my friends, and they're doing just fine. I'm much more bent out of shape about women's rights, the demonization of such, and access to health care (and that includes morning after pills and abortion providers) than I am at the media supposedly ruining everything.

Sex ed should be taught at a far younger age, with enough detail that it completely demystifies the acts of sex and makes the consequences of sex completely clear. Which would flip out social conservatives, so it'll never happen. See: GLSEN smears by the right wing, claiming kids were being taught how to fist.

174 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:50:55pm

re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist

I think very specific things have changes. Some good, some bad. We're in the middle of an enormous societal change in how sexuality is perceived.

The internet is the casting aside of the veil. "Oh wow! Everyone's into weird stuff!" That's huge. We can't pretend everyone is into square missionary sex anymore. :D

175 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:51:09pm

re: #158 ggt

I think they probably do have a problem with rape, as we define rape.

I'm sure they do. And like anywhere else in the world, it's probably culturally somewhat specific. Women in the Arab world are probably less likely in general to be in public places alone than Western women, but probably more vulnerable to being sexually assaulted by relatives, family friends or employers without feeling that they have recourse, or that it's safe to report. For example. Sexual assault is rampant in any culture in which a woman's value is tied to her chastity. Which was us until a minute ago, and still is in a lot of places.

I will, however, suggest that what happened to this reporter, specifically, could have happened pretty much anywhere in the world that a large, chaotic crowd had gathered, and that it sounds as though both the ladies of Cairo and the Egyptian Army took effective action.

176 The Left  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:51:12pm

re: #162 Gus 802

USA! USA! USA!

"There has to be something wrong with those statistics!"

/

Rape has always been a method of waging war, besides.

177 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:51:16pm

re: #167 researchok


My issue is not so much rape (we can all agree on the ugliness and violence of that) but rather the hypersexualiztion of kids.

But why is the hypersexualization of kids your issue? That's what I'm asking. It seems rather getting upset about a symptom, and not a cause.

178 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:51:20pm

re: #174 WindUpBird

The internet is the casting aside of the veil. "Oh wow! Everyone's into weird stuff!" That's huge. We can't pretend everyone is into square missionary sex anymore. :D

Or that they ever have been . . .

179 Locker  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:52:06pm

re: #173 WindUpBird

its not a "good" thing, but it is a thing that happens all the damn time. Not to go into the gory details, but I lost my virginity in your 12-14 gamut, and so did a lot of my friends, and they're doing just fine. I'm much more bent out of shape about women's rights, the demonization of such, and access to health care (and that includes morning after pills and abortion providers) than I am at the media supposedly ruining everything.

Sex ed should be taught at a far younger age, with enough detail that it completely demystifies the acts of sex and makes the consequences of sex completely clear. Which would flip out social conservatives, so it'll never happen. See: GLSEN smears by the right wing, claiming kids were being taught how to fist.

Yea man I was just thinking about that. After reading a few articles about the "pornification" of America I think it's strange to fight sex education in schools which seem to be the only organized program who's purpose is to dispel much of the misinformation, rumor and attitude portrayed in the media.

180 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:52:07pm

re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist

I think very specific things have changes. Some good, some bad. We're in the middle of an enormous societal change in how sexuality is perceived.

See this- written by a teacher.

181 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:52:15pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Absolutely. People should remember the enormous amount of sexual assault that's committed inside the family, or by trusted friends, and not by boyfriends/strangers etc.

everyone I know personally who have been sexually abused (and it's several people), all of them, it was done by a family member.

182 Interesting Times  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:52:37pm

re: #171 ggt

I'm remembering some of the "tribal" justice we've heard about--in which the rape of a female family member being the punishment for a male member of the family's crime. I wish I could remember then country. I think there was some debate as to whether this was age-old tribal justice or truly Islamic justice.

Sounds like Pakistan (google Mukhtar Mai)

And yes, it's tribal misogyny, which tends to latch on to Islamic extremism to further justify itself.

183 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:52:41pm

re: #179 Locker

Yea man I was just thinking about that. After reading a few articles about the "pornification" of America I think it's strange to fight sex education in schools which seem to be the only organized program who's purpose is to dispel much of the misinformation, rumor and attitude portrayed in the media.

Holy crap, we agree.
//

184 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:52:57pm

re: #181 WindUpBird

Nope. For me, it was the parish priest.

185 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:53:01pm

re: #169 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My daughter (20 and flippin' gorgeous) was at a concert last weekend. A guy standing hear her kept "bumping" into her. Hands "accidentally" touched her butt. She told him several times to back up.

He touched her once too many times. She knocked him out cold, broke his nose.

He was carried out by EMT's.

I am serious.

Good for her. Concerts can be brutal for that sort of thing. "Oh oops, sorry touched you're boob. Oh oops sorry did it again. Oh oops sorry I didn't mean to actually grab it."

I can report from personal experience that a good kneeing in the nuts tends to solve that problem.

186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:53:13pm

re: #169 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
This is from Dear Abby (am I first to cite Dear Abby on LGF?)

That letter reminded me of the classic rape trial in which the defense attorney asserted much the same defense for his client, accused of date rape. To illustrate his point, the defense attorney placed a pop bottle on the floor of the courtroom and sent it spinning. He challenged the prosecuting attorney to stick a pencil through the neck of the bottle as it spun around.

The prosecutor grabbed a heavy object and smashed the spinning bottle into a hundred pieces. He then leisurely stuck the pencil through the neck of the bottle.

Holding the penetrated neck high in the air, he declared, ``This, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is date rape.``

187 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:53:58pm

re: #177 Obdicut

But why is the hypersexualization of kids your issue? That's what I'm asking. It seems rather getting upset about a symptom, and not a cause.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm upset at the cause.

Really upset.

(wait till you have a kid- it'll drive you nuts)

188 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:54:52pm

re: #185 Jadespring

Good for her. Concerts can be brutal for that sort of thing. "Oh oops, sorry touched you're boob. Oh oops sorry did it again. Oh oops sorry I didn't mean to actually grab it."

I can report from personal experience that a good kneeing in the nuts tends to solve that problem.


I had a couple of drunk women behind me at the Clutch/Motorhead show, one of them just full on fell, then in trying to get up just like groped me six ways to sunday because I was the leverage by which they were drunkenly getting back to their feet. I was laughing myself silly :D

189 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:55:11pm

re: #169 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Though it could've ended very badly (which she understands) I was one proud papa.

190 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:55:22pm

re: #181 WindUpBird

everyone I know personally who have been sexually abused (and it's several people), all of them, it was done by a family member.

In my case it was a family friend and someone one I didn't know. Happened to me twice, though the second time was minor compared to the first.

191 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:56:20pm

re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sure they do. And like anywhere else in the world, it's probably culturally somewhat specific. Women in the Arab world are probably less likely in general to be in public places alone than Western women, but probably more vulnerable to being sexually assaulted by relatives, family friends or employers without feeling that they have recourse, or that it's safe to report. For example. Sexual assault is rampant in any culture in which a woman's value is tied to her chastity. Which was us until a minute ago, and still is in a lot of places.

I will, however, suggest that what happened to this reporter, specifically, could have happened pretty much anywhere in the world that a large, chaotic crowd had gathered, and that it sounds as though both the ladies of Cairo and the Egyptian Army took effective action.

But women have been reporting in such situations for a long time and I don't remember any such incidences.

If the perpetrators were men who believed that rape was a plausible punishment for perceived crimes or an acceptable way to behave in certain situations, I'd say it was culturally specific.

It seems to me they were sending a message to the Western World. "Don't mess with us, or we will fuck you up."

I've not heard reports of such behavior from other than Whacko Islamists.

It is Whacko behavior of a certain belief system. Not a representation of everyone of that belief system.

192 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:56:26pm

re: #173 WindUpBird

its not a "good" thing, but it is a thing that happens all the damn time. Not to go into the gory details, but I lost my virginity in your 12-14 gamut, and so did a lot of my friends, and they're doing just fine. I'm much more bent out of shape about women's rights, the demonization of such, and access to health care (and that includes morning after pills and abortion providers) than I am at the media supposedly ruining everything.

Sex ed should be taught at a far younger age, with enough detail that it completely demystifies the acts of sex and makes the consequences of sex completely clear. Which would flip out social conservatives, so it'll never happen. See: GLSEN smears by the right wing, claiming kids were being taught how to fist.

Spot on.

I would only add that in addition to consequences, I'd like to see conversations about responsibility, emotional maturity, relationships, etc added into the mix.

193 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:56:59pm

re: #171 ggt

I'm remembering some of the "tribal" justice we've heard about--in which the rape of a female family member being the punishment for a male member of the family's crime. I wish I could remember then country. I think there was some debate as to whether this was age-old tribal justice or truly Islamic justice.

I think the woman you're thinking of is Mukhtaran Bibi.

It seems to be a Pakistani tribal thing. There've been other cases.

194 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:57:24pm

re: #188 WindUpBird

I had a couple of drunk women behind me at the Clutch/Motorhead show, one of them just full on fell, then in trying to get up just like groped me six ways to sunday because I was the leverage by which they were drunkenly getting back to their feet. I was laughing myself silly :D

Yes well there is a difference between that sort of thing and when someone is quite obviously is doing it on purpose. :)

195 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:57:58pm

re: #194 Jadespring

Yes well there is a difference between that sort of thing and when someone is quite obviously is doing it on purpose. :)

I know, it just made me think of it XD

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:58:53pm

re: #177 Obdicut

But why is the hypersexualization of kids your issue? That's what I'm asking. It seems rather getting upset about a symptom, and not a cause.

It's pretty gross, all by itself.

197 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 2:59:47pm

Kid just called, I have to go

Have a great evening all!

198 The Left  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:00:39pm

re: #191 ggt

But women have been reporting in such situations for a long time and I don't remember any such incidences.

If the perpetrators were men who believed that rape was a plausible punishment for perceived crimes or an acceptable way to behave in certain situations, I'd say it was culturally specific.

It seems to me they were sending a message to the Western World. "Don't mess with us, or we will fuck you up."

I've not heard reports of such behavior from other than Whacko Islamists.

It is Whacko behavior of a certain belief system. Not a representation of everyone of that belief system.

A certain belief system about how mobs of men behave. Nothing cultural or specific about it. Happens during parades in nyc, happens during war, happens anytime you have a group of out of control men and any victim.

199 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:01:16pm

re: #196 SanFranciscoZionist

It's pretty gross, all by itself.

Definitely. I have a host of issues with Disney products because of their treatment of sexuality in their products for children.

200 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:03:41pm

re: #198 iceweasel

A certain belief system about how mobs of men behave. Nothing cultural or specific about it. Happens during parades in nyc, happens during war, happens anytime you have a group of out of control men and any victim.

That behavior really is biological/hardwired.

Cultures can mitigate the behavior. That's what needs to be emphasized.

201 justaminute  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:04:29pm

The only problem I have had traveling in the Middle East is being charged for things at a rate that is laughable. My husband told me that when I shop for anything other than food, to come back and tell him and he will purchase it. It makes me mad but what can you do.

202 The Left  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:05:16pm

re: #200 researchok

That behavior really is biological/hardwired.

Cultures can mitigate the behavior. That's what needs to be emphasized.

involuntary behaviour can be described as hard-wired or biological. Not this sort of thing.

203 Locker  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:07:26pm

re: #198 iceweasel

A certain belief system about how mobs of men behave. Nothing cultural or specific about it. Happens during parades in nyc, happens during war, happens anytime you have a group of out of control men and any victim.

True. I remember the central park videos with the guys pouring water over all those women, pulling their tops up, etc etc. That mob mentality is a strange and vicious beast.

204 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:08:35pm

re: #191 ggt

But women have been reporting in such situations for a long time and I don't remember any such incidences.

If the perpetrators were men who believed that rape was a plausible punishment for perceived crimes or an acceptable way to behave in certain situations, I'd say it was culturally specific.

It seems to me they were sending a message to the Western World. "Don't mess with us, or we will fuck you up."

I've not heard reports of such behavior from other than Whacko Islamists.

It is Whacko behavior of a certain belief system. Not a representation of everyone of that belief system.

Google is your friend here. I just googled. Most hits are not surprisingly about this one Egypt. I found 4 other ones where female reporters were raped or sexually assaulted. One in India, one in Thailand, one in Slovakia and one in Somalia.

205 Locker  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:08:55pm

re: #199 Obdicut

Definitely. I have a host of issues with Disney products because of their treatment of sexuality in their products for children.

South Park handled this one perfectly in the Jonas Brothers episode. The brothers have to wear purity rings so that Disney can sell sex to little girls without getting in trouble.

When they refuse to wear the rings Mickey goes on a tirade of cursing and beats the living crap out of one of the Jonas brothers. Comedic gold.

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:09:11pm

re: #181 WindUpBird

everyone I know personally who have been sexually abused (and it's several people), all of them, it was done by a family member.

I know some people who were abused by non-family members, but generally that's where most abuse of all kinds takes place.

Honestly, from the ancient Greeks to about 1975, there was a core concept in the West that the master of the house had sexual access to everyone living under his roof. We've transformed ourselves as society in the past thirty-five years. Spousal rape laws. Child abuse laws. Making the sexual abuse of children a public concern. Transforming rape laws. Creating the concept of 'date rape'. Making sexual harassment illegal. Calling out abuse by the clergy. We have changed ourselves completely as society, and mostly in very good ways. If the old days look better, I think that's probably because the victims were so completely silenced that it was easy to think everything was OK. (Please note the number of clerical abuse cases coming out now that stretch back to 1950s. Also, read some of Henny Youngman's original material, and marvel at how funny rape was to an audience in his era.)

Do we have a different set of problems now, and are they linked? Maybe. We may be learning that what we actually used to teach girls was that chastity and modesty were good only because if you were a 'bad girl', you wouldn't get married, and would be in deep shit. (Please note the "Pride and Prejudice" chapter in which the 'happy ending' to a fifteen-year-old girl running off with a complete bastard is that he's forced to marry her and save her from absolute ruin. I liked the Aishwarya Rai version better.) Maybe we have to reinvent these concepts for people who don't live in a shame-based society any more.

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:10:24pm

re: #189 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Though it could've ended very badly (which she understands) I was one proud papa.

I'm proud too. And I don't even know her. Rock on, young lady, without the inconvenience of having your butt grabbed.

208 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:10:27pm

re: #202 iceweasel

involuntary behaviour can be described as hard-wired or biological. Not this sort of thing.

I'm not so sure about that. Are you saying there is no biological differences between men and women?

Wed know boys engage in more physical 'rites of passage' than girls.

Also, girls are demonstrably more verbal than boys at a younger age. Their relationships are more interpersonal, etc.

209 HappyWarrior  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:10:43pm

re: #205 Locker

South Park handled this one perfectly in the Jonas Brothers episode. The brothers have to wear purity rings so that Disney can sell sex to little girls without getting in trouble.

When they refuse to wear the rings Mickey goes on a tirade of cursing and beats the living crap out of one of the Jonas brothers. Comedic gold.

THat was a great episode. I learned how to imitate Mickey's voice from that episode. Leads to some pretty funny dialogues.

210 Locker  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:12:32pm

re: #209 HappyWarrior

THat was a great episode. I learned how to imitate Mickey's voice from that episode. Leads to some pretty funny dialogues.

Oh Boy! I just love coming all the way to Colorado to talk about YOUR problems. Ha huh!

211 researchok  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:14:09pm

BBL

212 HappyWarrior  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:15:02pm

re: #210 Locker

Oh Boy! I just love coming all the way to Colorado to talk about YOUR problems. Ha huh!


Ha huh :)
For anyone who hasn't seen it:

213 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:17:18pm

re: #125 ozbloke

Much like Canada, our statistics reflect that all sexual assaults are classified as 'rape'. By comparison, US statistics define 'rape' differently - non-penetrative sexual touching, for instance, is not included.

214 SpaceJesus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:20:34pm

I know a woman who had something similar to this happen to her down in Chiapas Mexico some years ago. Sending a female to a highly volatile part of the world when that part of the world also happens to be lesser developed with little in the way of rule of law, is almost criminal in my opinion.

215 ozbloke  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:21:09pm

re: #213 Renaissance_Man

Much like Canada, our statistics reflect that all sexual assaults are classified as 'rape'. By comparison, US statistics define 'rape' differently - non-penetrative sexual touching, for instance, is not included.

Thanks Renaissance_Man.

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:22:08pm

re: #191 ggt

But women have been reporting in such situations for a long time and I don't remember any such incidences.

If the perpetrators were men who believed that rape was a plausible punishment for perceived crimes or an acceptable way to behave in certain situations, I'd say it was culturally specific.

It seems to me they were sending a message to the Western World. "Don't mess with us, or we will fuck you up."

I've not heard reports of such behavior from other than Whacko Islamists.

It is Whacko behavior of a certain belief system. Not a representation of everyone of that belief system.

Why do you think they were Islamists sending a message to the Western world, rather than, say, straggling pro-Mubarak thugs trying to get Western journalists to leave the country, or escaped prisoners living it up before the army rounds them up again?

I just don't feel as though I have any information at all on who these guys were, or what this was about. Retaliatory rape is not, AFAIK, an Arab thing, and would not make any sense in this context anyway. As for the idea that rape is acceptable in some settings, I think that's probably true for the Arab world, religious or secular, and a hell of a lot of other people as well.

217 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:23:07pm

re: #214 SpaceJesus

I know a woman who had something similar to this happen to her down in Chiapas Mexico some years ago. Sending a female to a highly volatile part of the world when that part of the world also happens to be lesser developed with little in the way of rule of law, is almost criminal in my opinion.

What if she wants to be sent there?

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:23:12pm

re: #200 researchok

That behavior really is biological/hardwired.

Cultures can mitigate the behavior. That's what needs to be emphasized.

I honestly don't think we know enough about human hardwiring to know what's hardwired and what's not.

219 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:23:47pm

re: #204 Jadespring

Google is your friend here. I just googled. Most hits are not surprisingly about this one Egypt. I found 4 other ones where female reporters were raped or sexually assaulted. One in India, one in Thailand, one in Slovakia and one in Somalia.

One in France as well, in a refugee camp.

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:24:58pm

re: #208 researchok

I'm not so sure about that. Are you saying there is no biological differences between men and women?

Wed know boys engage in more physical 'rites of passage' than girls.

Also, girls are demonstrably more verbal than boys at a younger age. Their relationships are more interpersonal, etc.

There are biological differences, but I'm not sure we know what they are yet, as deeply entwined as they are with cultural expectations.

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:25:39pm

re: #214 SpaceJesus

I know a woman who had something similar to this happen to her down in Chiapas Mexico some years ago. Sending a female to a highly volatile part of the world when that part of the world also happens to be lesser developed with little in the way of rule of law, is almost criminal in my opinion.

Reporters go where the story is. Some get beaten up, raped or killed. They know that.

222 SpaceJesus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:27:52pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

Reporters go where the story is. Some get beaten up, raped or killed. They know that.


The Agency responsible should deny them permission to go

223 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:28:34pm

re: #138 lostlakehiker

The problem here is that it wasn't an individual thing, but a mob. My guess is that the instigators were agents provocateur, Mubarak supporters watching their chance. When it became clear to them that their side had lost, they "vented".

What is the mindset of a rapist? In general, violence and aggression flow out of anger, an impulse for revenge, that sort of thing. So I'm guessing the rapists were part of the losing side and had bought into Mubarak's line that it was the fault of foreigners stirring up trouble.

His partisans had already a long track record of criminal violence. They did most of the killing during the revolution. Many were recruited from the ranks of common criminals. So we have a different logic. Not: it figures, they're Muslim...it doesn't figure. Instead, it figures, what do you expect from frustrated loser goons?

I would be careful deciding that this was the fault of the 'losing side' without any evidence. I don't really see any reason to believe that.

The 'bad guys' don't do every bad thing. And the 'good guys' aren't always total angels. People in crowds can do terrible things whether motivated by anger or euphoria.

224 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:29:42pm

re: #222 SpaceJesus

The Agency responsible should deny them permission to go

Jesus, you're getting paternalistic. Men get raped, beat up, and killed, too. Should they also be denied permission?

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:30:07pm

re: #222 SpaceJesus

The Agency responsible should deny them permission to go

All of them, or just the girls?

226 SpaceJesus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:33:38pm

re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist

All of them, or just the girls?


Probably both, but more deference should be given when a female is involved because of the higher threat.

227 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:35:25pm

re: #226 SpaceJesus

And if the girl should insist on going to report, should the big strong protective men kidnap her for her own good?

228 SpaceJesus  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:44:15pm

re: #227 Obdicut


What? The company needs to just say, "You can go if you want, but not on our dime and not with our resources because we are responsible people."

229 Blizard  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:47:49pm

re: #222 SpaceJesus

The Agency responsible should deny them permission to go


Because they are female? I fail to understand your logic. It's a risk understood by female journalists, I'm pretty sure about that. Let women decide and assess their own risk. The last thing that needs to happen is restrictions on women for certain assignments to "prevent things like this from happening."

230 celticdragon  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 3:48:41pm

re: #1 mr.fusion

Just saw this on Drudge...clicked through and the first comment was

Ugh

Lot's of comments mocking her at The Daily Beast. Sick beyond belief.

231 JRCMYP  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 4:25:31pm

That poor woman. A sustained sexual attack? Dear god. I hope she's recovering physically at least. Emotionally--I wish her and her family much strength.

232 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 4:42:44pm

God what I nightmare. Every woman's nightmare. She will be in my prayers.

233 lostlakehiker  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 5:04:28pm

re: #108 Gus 802

Yes the stupid commentators brought to the CBS News site from Drudge. Here's some facts on the top ten nations with rapes per capita from Nationmaster:

1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people

None of these are "Muslim countries". In fact most of these would be considered "Christian countries".

It's not hard to explain why the rate of reported rape is extraordinarily low in Islamic nations. The standard of proof, to gain a conviction, is set higher. And there are other hazards: a search on the text "raped and then charged with adultery" brought up these links.

Bangladesh, maybe nsfw
or Somalia, NYT story
Saudi story
or Pakistan
or UAE story
It takes almost suicidal courage to bring a charge of rape in this kind of a legal environment.

The statistics reported in the original post are qualified: the statistics tell you how many reported-to-the-law rapes.

They don't really say much of anything about the incidence of the crime itself. There's no reliable data.

234 webevintage  Tue, Feb 15, 2011 6:29:02pm

re: #222 SpaceJesus

The Agency responsible should deny them permission to go

Seriously?

235 SpaceJesus  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 12:43:58am

re: #234 webevintage

Yes, if they are responsible employers. It's what I would do in many circumstances. I would never place an employee in a position where something about them would make them more of a target than others. Common sense and safety should trump short sighted greed every time.

236 boxhead  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 3:10:40am

This story is a sad reminder that even though most Egyptians appear to have conducted themselves in an honorable fashion, there will always be some individuals that are completely amoral. That is our fate as humans.

I can only pray for her that she can recover. I can't even imagine the horror.

237 DrBoobooday  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:52:35am

This is horrific, but the morons who blame the victim make it 10x worse. And the morons who blame Islam multiply that again.

238 treasured people  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:11:54am

What happened to this reporter in Egypty is sadly reminiscent of what happened, over the years, to many young women who worked for the Peace Corps. It is tragic that highly compassionate people are taken advantage of by beast like individuals. This animalistic behavior, however, cannot persist in the face of overwhelming sympathy for its victims. Dictatorship, which may be defined as an ongoing assault on personal freedom, will soon be a relic of the past and with it, we can only hope, other types of brutality as well.

239 leftynyc  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:44:03am

re: #108 Gus 802

Yes the stupid commentators brought to the CBS News site from Drudge. Here's some facts on the top ten nations with rapes per capita from Nationmaster:

1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people

None of these are "Muslim countries". In fact most of these would be considered "Christian countries".

Just catching up this morning. Hope fully somebody has already pointed out that in many country's (including our own) most rapes are not reported. I would think that would be especially true in country's that put a large pricetag on "honor".

240 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 9:03:57am
241 lostlakehiker  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 10:05:55am

re: #223 Renaissance_Man

I would be careful deciding that this was the fault of the 'losing side' without any evidence. I don't really see any reason to believe that.

The 'bad guys' don't do every bad thing. And the 'good guys' aren't always total angels. People in crowds can do terrible things whether motivated by anger or euphoria.

Well, here's a news article. written by Michael CalderoneThe article made note of previous instances of abuse of reporters, including Logan. Those responsible for the earlier incidents were Mubarak supporters. By implication, the article seems to be pointing us to the same conclusion I drew.

Has it ever happened that a jubilant crowd just turned on a member of the press, a press that they generally deemed friends and helpers, and just to celebrate, cordoned off one of the reporters and raped her? This is no instance of the whim of one man, or a dozen. With hundreds of persons in on the deal, either they're their own group and not really celebrating, or the whole crowd would be feeling the same way. Which it wasn't. And it just doesn't make sense. Angry crowds do all sorts of things. Crowds rejoicing at the defeat of an enemy do all sorts of things to the vanquished. But what do jubilant crowds do to their friends? Not that.

As to whether it was a good idea to cover the story, and to use women reporters, well, yeah. There are some parts of the story that just can't be covered by men, not if you want to talk to strictly observant women in a casual and relaxed setting. The story is important. Hundreds are dead, and the futures of millions hang in the balance. Reporters, the best of them, have a calling. They take chances because there's no other way to get the story. They know that whenever you take a risk and skate onto thin ice, you may fall in. There's a line between courage and folly but the stakes here were so high that even mortal risk can be acceptable.

Marie Curie died of radiation. Christa McAuliffe and Judith Resnik died in the Challenger explosion. Nobody can live forever anyhow. Some things are worth doing, even if they're dangerous. He who accepts that challenge is truly a man, unless she's a woman. And then, she's no less a woman.

What we're seeing here is remarkable courage and dedication, not folly.


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