An Attack on the Existence of Labor Unions

The Republican war on workers’ rights
Politics • Views: 27,549

Ezra Klein cuts through the noise and tells you what is actually being proposed in Wisconsin — and the bottom line is simple. Gov. Scott Walker isn’t only proposing to reign in the salaries of government workers; he’s staging an attack on the very existence of labor unions.

The best way to understand Walker’s proposal is as a multi-part attack on the state’s labor unions. In part one, their ability to bargain benefits for their members is reduced. In part two, their ability to collect dues, and thus spend money organizing members or lobbying the legislature, is undercut. And in part three, workers have to vote the union back into existence every single year. Put it all together and it looks like this: Wisconsin’s unions can’t deliver value to their members, they’re deprived of the resources to change the rules so they can start delivering value to their members again, and because of that, their members eventually give in to employer pressure and shut the union down in one of the annual certification elections.

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759 comments
1 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:32:14am

I’m pretty sure this would be unconstitutional.

2 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:34:55am

It is hard, very hard, to bring a union into existence in the first place. US Courts have, in recent history, been turning a blind eye to illegal attempts at preventing unions. Wal-mart is one of the biggest offenders on this.

Even if there weren’t dirty tricks at work, a union takes a lot of organization, facing an already-organized management.

Requiring the union to re-up its members yearly is a sure way to eventually bust the union. And once busted, given these incredibly severe restrictions on activity, what point would there be in reforming it? What could the union promise?

What quality of employees does Wisconsin think they’ll attract with this sort of relationship?

3 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:39:20am

re: #1 Killgore Trout

I’m pretty sure this would be unconstitutional.

Unions fall outside our normal definitions of what is and is not constitutional and lawful. They are granted specific anti-trust exemptions since they are allowed to collaborate to fix prices and the like (to wit: see SAG & AFTRA).

The unions in America need reform. The benefits packages states have been cowed into giving need to be revisited. That being said, Walker’s draconian methods are six or seven bridges too far. Unions have a place in America and should not be driven out entirely.

4 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:40:24am

re: #3 Cineaste

Why do people talk about states being ‘cowed’ into accepting benefits packages? What is the mechanism by which they ‘cow’ people?

5 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:40:30am

THis is beyond anything I can absorb right now. So much is happening.

My little grey cells are weary.

6 prairiefire  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:40:47am

Well done, Mr. Klein.

7 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:41:18am

re: #1 Killgore Trout

I’m pretty sure this would be unconstitutional.

Though what becomes an interesting question is the extent to which there is federal jurisdiction. The unions fall into interstate trade & commerce but the locals could reasonably be argued do not since they are only negotiating deals that affect work within a given state.

8 b_sharp  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:41:28am

re: #4 Obdicut

Why do people talk about states being ‘cowed’ into accepting benefits packages? What is the mechanism by which they ‘cow’ people?

Big signs and dirty looks.

9 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:41:51am

re: #4 Obdicut

Why do people talk about states being ‘cowed’ into accepting benefits packages? What is the mechanism by which they ‘cow’ people?

Live through a garbage strike in August in New York City and you’ll see it.

10 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:42:41am

re: #2 Obdicut

I
What quality of employees does Wisconsin think they’ll attract with this sort of relationship?

Desperate ones. Ones who won’t make waves, will work overtime without pay, are terrified of losing that income.
And illegals to exploit, you betcha.

11 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:43:44am

re: #9 Cineaste

Live through a garbage strike in August in New York City and you’ll see it.

So, striking, to you, is a tactic that ‘cows’.

What mechanism do you think that a union could actually use, then?

12 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:44:06am

re: #4 Obdicut

Why do people talk about states being ‘cowed’ into accepting benefits packages? What is the mechanism by which they ‘cow’ people?

But let me also state for the record, states are entirely complicit in their own situations. This is not just about unions at all. I also want to reiterate that I’m not condemning unions writ large.

13 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:46:45am

re: #1 Killgore Trout

I’m pretty sure this would be unconstitutional.

Yes it is a violation of the 1st amendment’s right to assembly and free association. However the current SCUSA really doesn’t care about that tiny detail unless you’re incorporated.

14 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:47:35am

I wish the SIEU bus was outside my house right now. I’d be there in support so damn quick.

This is a very very important issue, as you all know.

15 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:48:07am

re: #3 Cineaste

Unions fall outside our normal definitions of what is and is not constitutional and lawful. They are granted specific anti-trust exemptions since they are allowed to collaborate to fix prices and the like (to wit: see SAG & AFTRA).

The unions in America need reform. The benefits packages states have been cowed into giving need to be revisited. That being said, Walker’s draconian methods are six or seven bridges too far. Unions have a place in America and should not be driven out entirely.

Wish I’d known how to use my union to cow the state while I worked there. I might have gotten a raise once in awhile.

16 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:48:20am

Unions can be ugly.

Union busting is always ugly.

17 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:49:20am

re: #6 prairiefire

Well done, Mr. Klein.

Ezra Klein is pretty amazing at cutting through the noise. I learned a lot from his posts in the runup to the health care debates.

18 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:49:49am

re: #15 wlewisiii

Wish I’d known how to use my union to cow the state while I worked there. I might have gotten a raise once in awhile.

wlewisiii - do you have any twitter feeds that I should follow to keep up?

20 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:52:58am

re: #11 Obdicut

So, striking, to you, is a tactic that ‘cows’.

What mechanism do you think that a union could actually use, then?

Well the incentive structure that guides union leadership is often not directly aligned with the best interests of the members. Take, for example, the reason negotiation between the union representing uniformed police in Newark and Cory Booker’s administration. The city wanted to keep more cops working which would a) make the city safer, b) reduce the workload for each individual police officer, and c) keep more of the current police force employed. To do that would require some relatively small roll backs that would be spread pretty widely, and those roll backs were only occurring after every other department in the city. The union leadership said no. The administration said the only other alternative was to let go 145 officers which would have the affect of a, b, and c, above. The city asked the union to put it to a vote of their members and the union leadership refused.

Now why would they not let their own members vote? Self preservation. If the union leaders agree to any sort of roll back then they know they may face a challenger in the future who will say they hurt the members. However if they let 145 officers get fired they know that those officers will leave the union either because they are unemployed and can’t pay the dues or they find work in another jurisdiction and find another union. Thus they won’t be around anymore to vote the leaders out.

You see this dynamic repeated in everything from autoworkers to teachers. There have been a number of academic articles that look at the misaligned incentives of union leadership. It’s unfortunate because, just like politicians, they make short term political survival maneuvers rather than long-term general welfare maneuvers.

21 sizzleRI  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:53:32am

re: #7 Cineaste

Though what becomes an interesting question is the extent to which there is federal jurisdiction. The unions fall into interstate trade & commerce but the locals could reasonably be argued do not since they are only negotiating deals that affect work within a given state.

Yeah, state public sector employees are explicitly outside of federal jurisdiction. It is all on a state by state basis.

22 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:53:53am

re: #18 Stanley Sea

wlewisiii - do you have any twitter feeds that I should follow to keep up?

Can’t help with twitter. It drives me nuts to try and use it. I’m too old school (pre-“September that lasted forever”) internet for it, I guess.

23 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:53:55am

re: #16 wrenchwench

Unions can be ugly.

Union busting is always ugly.

I agree, I have mixed opinions on unions in general. They are often good and sometimes not. However, in today’s climate of overblown right wing conspiracy theories about communist plots and the New World Order I think the anti-union rhetoric is way off base. The teacher’s unions are not the main problem with the budget or with education in general.

24 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:55:02am

Folks in red states, take note: Wisconsin won’t be alone. If your governor and his buddies in the legislature think they have the votes, they will work to follow Walker’s example. This not about “fiscal responsibility,” about “sacrifice,” or about “budget repair.” This is about killing unions, first in the public workplace, then in the private one. Just because it’s not happening in your state now doesn’t mean it can’t or that it won’t.

25 lostlakehiker  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:55:32am
Gov. Scott Walker isn’t only proposing to reign rein in the salaries of government workers;


fixed

26 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:56:56am

re: #20 Cineaste

You didn’t actually answer my question, you know.

27 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:57:51am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Unions often wind up needing unions.

The principle they embody is always needed; collective bargaining from labor, in contrast to the by-its-nature collective bargaining of capital.

28 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:59:11am

re: #24 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Folks in red states, take note: Wisconsin won’t be alone. If your governor and his buddies in the legislature think they have the votes, they will work to follow Walker’s example. This not about “fiscal responsibility,” about “sacrifice,” or about “budget repair.” This is about killing unions, first in the public workplace, then in the private one. Just because it’s not happening in your state now doesn’t mean it can’t or that it won’t.

Another note— Walker is notably avoiding picking fights with the unions that supported him publicly, like the police and firefighters.

This is nothing but a political attack on his perceived enemies, busting the teachers unions and other public workers because they didn’t align themselves with him during the election. It’s a nakedly cynical bit of political gaming that should be tossed out on its ass and set on fire.

Collective bargaining is a fundamental right for workers. Just because you work in the public sector, that doesn’t mean you suddenly lose your voice.

29 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:59:26am

Ice - email alert.

30 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:00:18am

re: #26 Obdicut

You didn’t actually answer my question, you know.

But…but….WORDS! Lots and lots of words! How could all those words be written without ever answering the question?

///

31 JoyousMN  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:01:15am

Our grandparents fought so hard for the right to organize and for collective bargaining. Our parents reaped the rewards with defined pensions and higher wages and benefits. Somehow we’ve let it slip through of our fingers.

The NAFTA stuff that Clinton promoted, the ability of corporations to ship jobs overseas and not pay a living wage, the vilification of unions by the right…it’s become harder and harder to stop the downward slide of wages and benefits. Unions, by advocating for their workers raised everyone’s standard of living. Without an upward pressure on compensation I don’t see how we can keep our standard of living.

Even skilled workers are finding that they can be replaced at lower cost by younger workers, or workers from overseas. It can’t all be about the free-market, there have to be some protections and regulations or corporations will do everything in their power to maximize profits for short term gains.

32 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:03:47am

re: #26 Obdicut

You didn’t actually answer my question, you know.

Well if strikes are the only means of negotiation wouldn’t you see them much more often? I am supportive of laws that restrict public service union’s ability to strike since it may have a massive affect on the general welfare. Unions can organize political campaigns to support and elect politicians who are supportive of their agendas, just like the rest of us. If they don’t like the proposals of the current administration, organize and throw your support behind a new administration next time. They do it all the time.

In the private sector unions have no other recourse in negotiation. They cannot change the leadership of a company by vote (barring the ability to purchase a majority share of the company’s stock if it is publicly listed but then the union itself would be management and you have another ball of wax) so they can affect the company’s success in the market through labor actions.

33 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:04:39am

Another Sarah Palin fail….
Union Brothers and Sisters: Seize Opportunity to Show True Solidarity
by Sarah Palin

You can join millions of other union members in a commonsense movement to help fight for the right causes in our great country – for budgets that share the burden in a truly fair way and for commonsense reforms that take power away from vested interests like union bosses and big business lobby groups, and put it back where it belongs – with “We the People.”

What do the the tax paying voters of Wisconsin want?
Poll: Majority don’t side with Walker; senators should come home

The poll asked respondents if they approve or disapprove of Walker’s plans. According to the poll, 43.05% approved and 51.9% disapproved. 5.05% were uncertain. Females and union households registered higher disapproval.

34 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:04:54am

I found some twitter feeds to follow. Apparently the teachers are helping the tea baggers correct their misspelled signs.

35 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:05:08am

re: #31 JoyousMN

At least for my parents, they believe the only legitimate unions are the ones they belonged to. Everything else is a scheme. Better yet if somehow Obama is at the bottom of it.

36 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:05:27am

re: #32 Cineaste

Well if strikes are the only means of negotiation wouldn’t you see them much more often? I am supportive of laws that restrict public service union’s ability to strike since it may have a massive affect on the general welfare. Unions can organize political campaigns to support and elect politicians who are supportive of their agendas, just like the rest of us. If they don’t like the proposals of the current administration, organize and throw your support behind a new administration next time. They do it all the time.

Are you also supportive of laws restricting government shutdowns like we may be seeing soon from the Repubs? That’s going to hurt the general welfare quite a bit.

37 wee fury  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:05:44am

The Air Traffic Controllers strike.
eightiesclub.tripod.com
That worked real well for the Union.

38 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:05:53am

re: #31 JoyousMN

Even skilled workers are finding that they can be replaced at lower cost by younger workers, or workers from overseas.

I don’t think a lot of people realize this. Damn near EVERYTHING can be outsourced or sent overseas. Just because you have to have extra schooling or training to do your job, that doesn’t mean you’re immune. Things like tax preparation, and interpreting your CT scans or MRI tests can all be done by someone in a different part of the world, and often IS done by someone outside of the States.

39 Idle Drifter  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:06:01am

I believe collective bargaining has its place within a capitalist system. I believe this despite that I’ve been on the receiving end of union animosity towards contract workers and because I’ve also benefited from my dad’s union when I was a kid. The strange twist is these two experiences came with the same union but I digress. What’s going on in Wisconsin should have the entire nation on edge as I believe employees should have the right to choose to belong to organized labor or not.

40 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:06:13am

re: #20 Cineaste

Well the incentive structure that guides union leadership is often not directly aligned with the best interests of the members.

You make this example and then give one example which, theoretically proves your point (unless you can show that the union membership disagreed with the leadership’s position, your conclusion is speculative).

How do you back up your qualifier of “often?”

41 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:07:17am

@steveweinstein Maybe if Joe-duh-Plumber was in a real union & was a real plumber he would have had a real job. #wiunion #TeaParty #dunces

42 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:07:30am

People on Twitter are saying there are only about 300 Teabaggers in Wisconsin, and they’re screaming “homo” and “commie” at the protesters.

43 JoyousMN  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:08:20am

re: #35 theheat

At least for my parents, they believe the only legitimate unions are the ones they belonged to. Everything else is a scheme. Better yet if somehow Obama is at the bottom of it.

I firmly believe that for some of my relatives Obama could cure cancer and they would scream about how he’s putting doctors out of work.

44 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:08:29am

re: #32 Cineaste

Well if strikes are the only means of negotiation wouldn’t you see them much more often?

I never claimed they were the only means of negotiation. I didn’t even claim they were a means of negotiation. They are the penalty for a breakdown in negotiations.

I am supportive of laws that restrict public service union’s ability to strike since it may have a massive affect on the general welfare.

Me too. Restrict.

Unions can organize political campaigns to support and elect politicians who are supportive of their agendas, just like the rest of us.

What does that have to do with negotiating a contract with your employer? You’re seriously suggesting the way unions should negotiate a contract is through campaigning for people?

They cannot change the leadership of a company by vote (barring the ability to purchase a majority share of the company’s stock if it is publicly listed but then the union itself would be management and you have another ball of wax) so they can affect the company’s success in the market through labor actions.

Think about your analagoy for a second. Unions can’t change the leadership of a state by vote either— barring the ability of unions to make up a majority of the citizens in the state. You have the right analogy, but you have it absolutely fucking backwards. Union members get one vote apiece, just like the rest of us.

45 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:09:05am

re: #20 Cineaste

re: #40 Talking Point Detective

Sorry. That should read…. ‘You make this assertion and then provide one example….”

46 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:09:28am

re: #34 Stanley Sea

Apparently the teachers are helping the tea baggers correct their misspelled signs.

That’s awesome. Red Sharpie pens FTW! :D

47 SpaceJesus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:09:48am

re: #42 Charles

sounds about right

48 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:09:55am

re: #42 Charles

People on Twitter are saying there are only about 300 Teabaggers in Wisconsin, and they’re screaming “homo” and “commie” at the protesters.

*deadpan* However will the protesters survive under such an awe-inspiring onslaught?

49 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:10:05am

More hidden consquences of Scooter’s Union Busting:

“Even though it won’t save taxpayers any cash, several thousand workers at the University of Wisconsin Hospital and Clinics could lose their right to collectively bargain under Gov. Scott Walker’s budget repair bill.

On Friday, UWHC President and CEO Donna Katen-Bahensky sent a letter to Walker expressing concern about this issue, as 5,000 of the hospital’s 7,500 workers bargain collectively.”

host.madison.com

50 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:10:39am

Oh look at this sign in Egypt

twitpic.com

cjdamico Chris Damico

Egypt supports WI workers. I love my state, and this photo. We’re international! twitpic.com #wiunion

51 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:10:47am

re: #38 Lidane

And when “Made in the USA” costs five times as much for virtually identical items, which are most people going to buy?

The pro-American sector usually screams “it’s just cheap imported crap” but the fact is it’s often as good, depending on the item. I’ve watched the quality of several agri-based imported items make a complete turnaround in as little as a year’s time. If consumers demanded more quality, the overseas manufacturers delivered, and still kept the costs down.

52 Idle Drifter  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:11:04am

re: #42 Charles

People on Twitter are saying there are only about 300 Teabaggers in Wisconsin, and they’re screaming “homo” and “commie” at the protesters.

They wouldn’t happen to be from Westboro, Kansas?

53 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:11:18am

re: #36 recusancy

Are you also supportive of laws restricting government shutdowns like we may be seeing soon from the Repubs? That’s going to hurt the general welfare quite a bit.

I think the government shutdown is a wildly immature stunt and last time it happened the Republicans saw what happened to them. If they do it again they’re f-ing idiots. That being said, I don’t think there’s a need to pass a law to prevent that since a government shutdown does not truly mean everything in the government is shut down. If it did then every airport in america would close, so too every border, so too every federal prison, etc, etc, etc…

Passing a law to prevent that would be akin to the moronic idea of a balanced budget amendment - if the law (or amendment) is broken what is the recourse? You throw everyone in congress in jail? I mean, that would be tons of fun to watch (I’m serious, that’d be awesome) but it’s unclear how that would even work. If congress refused to pass a law to continue funding for the government exactly what agency would act? I guess the Federal Marshalls since they are from the judiciary. But once they arrest all of congress who gets the government going again? The judiciary doesn’t have the power to write a law, only to rule on it, so it’s really unclear what that would mean.

I appreciate that my answer is ad absurdum, but the question is too in a way.

54 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:11:50am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

I agree, I have mixed opinions on unions in general. They are often good and sometimes not. However, in today’s climate of overblown right wing conspiracy theories about communist plots and the New World Order I think the anti-union rhetoric is way off base. The teacher’s unions are not the main problem with the budget or with education in general.

I think confuses me the most about this issue is my idea that the rank ‘n file worker won’t have representation (lobbyists) without unions. Then we hear that the union leaders work for their own interests and not the workers.

In theory, the workers should have their elected officials as their representation, no?

I liken the whole think to a snake pit or the old “oh, what a tangled web we weave . . “

55 JoyousMN  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:12:03am

re: #38 Lidane

I don’t think a lot of people realize this. Damn near EVERYTHING can be outsourced or sent overseas. Just because you have to have extra schooling or training to do your job, that doesn’t mean you’re immune. Things like tax preparation, and interpreting your CT scans or MRI tests can all be done by someone in a different part of the world, and often IS done by someone outside of the States.

I think this hasn’t sunk in for everyone…

As Frank Zappa used to say, “It can’t happen here.” *grin*

56 Tigger2  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:12:14am

re: #14 Stanley Sea

I wish the SIEU bus was outside my house right now. I’d be there in support so damn quick.

This is a very very important issue, as you all know.


I saw a great sign in the photos of the protesters, all it had on it was.
“Screw us and we multiply”

57 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:12:22am

re: #42 Charles

People on Twitter are saying there are only about 300 Teabaggers in Wisconsin, and they’re screaming “homo” and “commie” at the protesters.

Also Breitfuck might have been seen wearing a union shirt in the hopes of causing some trouble he can then film.

58 wee fury  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:12:44am

re: #42 Charles

Well.
Could just be a ice fisherman who hates tea and loves beer, for all the ‘twitterers’ know.

59 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:13:16am

re: #42 Charles

People on Twitter are saying there are only about 300 Teabaggers in Wisconsin, and they’re screaming “homo” and “commie” at the protesters.

They gotta go with what they know. Plus, it’s fewer words to misspell.

60 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:13:54am

re: #57 webevintage

Also Breitfuck might have been seen wearing a union shirt in the hopes of causing some trouble he can then film.

Sad thing is, that wouldn’t surprise me in the least. It’d be assured top-billing on Fox News for the rest of the week.

61 wee fury  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:14:14am

Speaking of ice fishing … must go.

62 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:15:05am

On Twitter:

@DanaHoule
Teapartiers are suckers: in the old days, people shipped in to undermine unions at least got paid.

63 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:15:27am

By the way, Wisconsin is not broke.

64 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:15:50am

re: #51 theheat

The pro-American sector usually screams “it’s just cheap imported crap” but the fact is it’s often as good, depending on the item. I’ve watched the quality of several agri-based imported items make a complete turnaround in as little as a year’s time. If consumers demanded more quality, the overseas manufacturers delivered, and still kept the costs down.

What I always find ironic is people complaining about jobs being outsourced or off-shored and about “cheap imported crap” while on their computers. It’s as if they don’t realize that most of the manufacturing supply chains for American businesses, including tech companies, are overseas.

65 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:16:47am

So is 300 hundred the number of TPers that showed up? I haven’t seen or read anything about it.

Just wondering what the comparison is between the two groups.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:17:22am

re: #41 Stanley Sea

@steveweinstein Maybe if Joe-duh-Plumber was in a real union & was a real plumber he would have had a real job. #wiunion #TeaParty #dunces

I think the ‘real plumber’ place would be a good one to start.

I didn’t dislike Joe, you know? But I was baffled at how he became some sort of symbol overnight, when he was asking about a hypothetical situation, and had all his facts wrong anyway.

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:17:38am

re: #42 Charles

People on Twitter are saying there are only about 300 Teabaggers in Wisconsin, and they’re screaming “homo” and “commie” at the protesters.

That’ll convince people. No question.

68 JoyousMN  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:18:24am

re: #51 theheat

And when “Made in the USA” costs five times as much for virtually identical items, which are most people going to buy?

The pro-American sector usually screams “it’s just cheap imported crap” but the fact is it’s often as good, depending on the item. I’ve watched the quality of several agri-based imported items make a complete turnaround in as little as a year’s time. If consumers demanded more quality, the overseas manufacturers delivered, and still kept the costs down.

Look, no one says that there are easy answers to this stuff. But even Henry Ford understood that it was in his own best interest if his workers could afford his products. It’s the Walmart conundrum: “I can’t afford to shop somewhere else, even though I know that Walmart doesn’t pay their workers a living wage.” (I’m not just singling out Walmart, they are just a well-known example).

69 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:18:31am

I hear about the Tea Partiers showing up and my first thought is the reports of thousands of “pro-Mubarak protesters” who were little more than paid thugs, bussed in from the rural communities and paid to crack heads and stir up violence in an effort to discredit the movement.

70 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:19:06am

re: #63 Charles

By the way, Wisconsin is not broke.

Gotta love it when even the opposition’s newspaper won’t go along with the lie.

71 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:19:14am

The complaint about out-sourcing boggles my mind as well. We work to improve the status of individuals and countries all over the world —what would be the outcome?

Either we want a competitive marketplace or we don’t.

Seems people who scream against isolationism in one area are for it in others.

72 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:19:16am

re: #56 Tigger2

I saw a great sign in the photos of the protesters, all it had on it was.
“Screw us and we multiply”

Excellent!

73 gamark  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:19:22am

re: #36 recusancy

Are you also supportive of laws restricting government shutdowns like we may be seeing soon from the Repubs?

We are already seeing a government shutdown in WI as the Dems ran away from their responsibility.

74 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:19:36am

re: #52 Idle Drifter

They wouldn’t happen to be from Westboro, Kansas?

God, what did Topeka ever DO that they were punished with Fred Phelps?

My grandpa was from Kansas. Kansans have always struck me as nice people.

75 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:19:42am

re: #64 Lidane

One American company went so far as to spread rumors about the supposedly substandard materials used in an imported competitor’s products. The rumor spread like wildfire, akin to OMG! melamine in food!

It was completely false. In fact, I know the product, I know who makes it, and I know what goes in it (it’s a metal-based item). But do you think that stopped any of the rumor spreading by Real Americans™?

76 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:19:54am

re: #73 gamark

What responsibility did they run away from?

77 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:20:06am

About “Joe the Plumber:” Joe the Plumber Speaks Out Against ‘Queers’.

He’s a bigoted reactionary idiot. That explains how he became a right wing symbol.

78 JoyousMN  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:20:12am

re: #50 Stanley Sea

Oh look at this sign in Egypt

[Link: twitpic.com…]

cjdamico Chris Damico

Egypt supports WI workers. I love my state, and this photo. We’re international! [Link: twitpic.com…] #wiunion

Somewhere out there, Glenn Beck is swooning. HE WAS RIGHT!!!111!!

/

79 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:20:17am

re: #65 Jadespring

So is 300 hundred the number of TPers that showed up? I haven’t seen or read anything about it.

Just wondering what the comparison is between the two groups.

300!11!

Youtube Video

81 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:21:34am

re: #42 Charles

People on Twitter are saying there are only about 300 Teabaggers in Wisconsin, and they’re screaming “homo” and “commie” at the protesters.

Given the historical homophobia of the Commies this sounds a bit strange.

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:21:38am

re: #68 JoyousMN

Look, no one says that there are easy answers to this stuff. But even Henry Ford understood that it was in his own best interest if his workers could afford his products. It’s the Walmart conundrum: “I can’t afford to shop somewhere else, even though I know that Walmart doesn’t pay their workers a living wage.” (I’m not just singling out Walmart, they are just a well-known example).

Costco pays pretty well, and their prices are perfectly good.

//Fucking Costco. How does it work?

83 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:22:32am

re: #80 jaunte

Spanakopita!

mmmmmmm, spanakopita……

84 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:22:35am

re: #73 gamark

We are already seeing a government shutdown in WI as the Dems ran away from their responsibility.

I prefer ‘went on the lam’.

I’m sure the State Police could have prevented them from getting across the border but…since their collective bargaining rights were also in jeopardy…

85 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:23:09am

re: #44 Obdicut

Me too. Restrict.

I think we’re on similar ground on that point Obdi.

What does that have to do with negotiating a contract with your employer? You’re seriously suggesting the way unions should negotiate a contract is through campaigning for people?

Yes, democracy in action. You want a result, vote for the people that will give you that result!

Think about your analagoy for a second. Unions can’t change the leadership of a state by vote either— barring the ability of unions to make up a majority of the citizens in the state. You have the right analogy, but you have it absolutely fucking backwards. Union members get one vote apiece, just like the rest of us.

I don’t agree. Well - to be clear - I agree that it’s one person, one vote - but I don’t agree that political consequences is not an effective negotiation tactic. If Unions couldn’t affect their negotiations by political means why would roughly 2/3rds of the top 20 campaign donors from 1989-2010 be unions or trade associations? And if supporting unions’ desires wasn’t important to politicians why would so many court them so heavily. Unions can pour their collective resources (both financial and manpower) into helping the candidates they believe in and that can have real affect on their prospects in negotiations.

86 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:23:14am

re: #82 SanFranciscoZionist

Costco pays pretty well, and their prices are perfectly good.

//Fucking Costco. How does it work?

It just loves you.

Youtube Video

87 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:23:38am

re: #73 gamark

We are already seeing a government shutdown in WI as the Dems ran away from their responsibility.

They are fulfilling their responsibility to do what is best for the state - stopping Scooter’s rather naked power grab.

Run Senators Run! As before, so again - Solidarity!

88 reidr  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:23:50am

I’m curious about the big picture. (And I hope this doesn’t sound too Beckian.) Have the far-right powers decided that they’ve laid enough propaganda groundwork that people are anti-union enough and that this will work? Did things get out of hand on them? Is the gubner going out on his own here?

I feel like this could be a big battle or turning point in the left-right wars that have been developing over the last 30 years….

89 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:23:51am

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

I prefer ‘went on the lam’.

I’m sure the State Police could have prevented them from getting across the border but…since their collective bargaining rights were also in jeopardy…

Filibuster.

90 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:25:04am

re: #50 Stanley Sea

Oh look at this sign in Egypt

[Link: twitpic.com…]

cjdamico Chris Damico

Egypt supports WI workers. I love my state, and this photo. We’re international! [Link: twitpic.com…] #wiunion

Yes!!!

91 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:25:49am

re: #87 wlewisiii

They are fulfilling their responsibility to do what is best for the state - stopping Scooter’s rather naked power grab.

Run Senators Run! As before, so again - Solidarity!

Go, old white guys in suits, go!

(I tell you. This has ‘road trip movie’ written all over it.)

92 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:26:02am

re: #88 reidr

I’m curious about the big picture. (And I hope this doesn’t sound too Beckian.) Have the far-right powers decided that they’ve laid enough propaganda groundwork that people are anti-union enough and that this will work? Did things get out of hand on them? Is the gubner going out on his own here?

I feel like this could be a big battle or turning point in the left-right wars that have been developing over the last 30 years…

Just spoke to friend, totally anti union based on nothing more than GOP/right wing spin. No clue whatsoever about unions except the talking points.

I tried to educate. I tried.

93 Tigger2  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:26:09am

re: #73 gamark

We are already seeing a government shutdown in WI as the Dems ran away from their responsibility.


And I consider those Dem Senators Hero’s for standing up for the middle class workers.

94 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:26:13am

re: #90 wlewisiii

Yes!!!

THIS is our Brave New World!

and I am feeling very old, but still optimistic until proven otherwise.

95 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:26:19am

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

I prefer ‘went on the lam’.

I’m sure the State Police could have prevented them from getting across the border but…since their collective bargaining rights were also in jeopardy…

They’re just having an “off-site”.

96 Idle Drifter  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:26:48am

re: #74 SanFranciscoZionist

God, what did Topeka ever DO that they were punished with Fred Phelps?

My grandpa was from Kansas. Kansans have always struck me as nice people.

There’s nut jobs everywhere and they always make the most noise. Michigan Militia, Branch Davidian, Heven’s Gate, etc they’ll always be there to make life miserable or just weird for the rest of us.

97 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:27:21am

re: #20 Cineaste

I have to run, and I’m wondering if you can actually answer this question - so I’ll ask it again:

You give one example of a union theoretically voting against the interests of the membership (an example where, unless you can actually show that the union membership disagreed with the leadership’s position, your conclusion is speculative), and then assert that it happens “often.”

How do you back up your qualifier of “often?”

98 Winny Spencer  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:27:30am

re: #81 Sergey Romanov

Given the historical homophobia of the Commies this sounds a bit strange.

Yeah, that would be something your average teabagger would be aware of. Not!

99 RadicalModerate  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:27:35am

So, what we have from the GOP in regards to labor laws this year is the following:

1. In Missouri, a proposal is in the legislature to repeal most significant child labor laws.
2. In Wisconsin, we have this bill that Governor Walker attempted to ramrod through the legislature without debate, which removes workers’ ability to collectively bargain - the very foundation of workers’ rights.
3. There is a renewed effort at the federal level to weaken, or outright repeal OSHA worker safety laws.
4. In multiple states (Nevada, West Virginia, among others) there are proposals on the table to repeal minimum wage laws. This has also been brought up again recently by GOP representatives.

And the Tea Partiers are so disconnected from reality that they think that these people represent their best interests.

100 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:27:36am

Looks like Ohio will be the next battle to protect collective bargaining:

balloon-juice.com

101 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:27:36am

This is what’s coming out of right wingers on Twitter:

RT @slicedsky: RT @jbtalker: #WI Fire all teachers TODAY! They do not deserve our hard earned dollars. // I 2nd that!

102 albusteve  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:28:14am

the wheels on the bus go round and round, til they fall off as they have in Wisconsin…so much for the divine process of govt, but I have to say that it’s high entertainment when you try to take down a union with the formidable sized club Walker is weilding….go big or stay at home, and this cage match should be a good one

103 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:28:38am

re: #99 RadicalModerate

So, what we have from the GOP in regards to labor laws this year is the following:

1. In Missouri, a proposal is in the legislature to repeal most significant child labor laws.
2. In Wisconsin, we have this bill that Governor Walker attempted to ramrod through the legislature without debate, which removes workers’ ability to collectively bargain - the very foundation of workers’ rights.
3. There is a renewed effort at the federal level to weaken, or outright repeal OSHA worker safety laws.
4. In multiple states (Nevada, West Virginia, among others) there are proposals on the table to repeal minimum wage laws. This has also been brought up again recently by GOP representatives.

And the Tea Partiers are so disconnected from reality that they think that these people represent their best interests.

You forgot the House voted to defund Planned Parenthood.

How could you?

104 jaunte  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:28:45am

Walker’s Trojan Horse

Governor Scott Walker’s manufactured $3.6 billion state budget deficit in the next biennium is rapidly unraveling as a bogus figure. Yesterday I pointed out that the figure is based on $3.9 billion in new agency requests (Table 1) for a spending increase of 6.2%, a figure we noted is never approved by the legislature. Those are REQUESTS, not actual dollars expended.
105 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:29:08am

re: #68 JoyousMN

Look, no one says that there are easy answers to this stuff. But even Henry Ford understood that it was in his own best interest if his workers could afford his products. It’s the Walmart conundrum: “I can’t afford to shop somewhere else, even though I know that Walmart doesn’t pay their workers a living wage.” (I’m not just singling out Walmart, they are just a well-known example).

It’s also worth noting that most cars in America are made in America. States and companies that have more contemporary agreements with labor have built new manufacturing facilities like the massive Tacoma truck plant outside San Antonio. Unfortunately the dynamics of production have hurt the economics of older manufacturers. They once had a workforce of thousands to support a truckline. Now it’s hundreds because of robotics and improved production techniques. So you have thousands of retirees being supported by hundreds of active labor and the retirement plans topple over. The deals that were negotiated 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago assumed that the amount of people required to make a given item would stay constant and the quantity of items would increase, thus the number of people would increase but the dynamic has gone the other way and they can’t figure out how to maintain it.

106 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:29:42am

re: #99 RadicalModerate

As the sayin’ goes, “we get the government we deserve.” In this case, folks can’t say they didn’t know the GOP wouldn’t use the very deficits they helped to engineer to fuck over the working man. They been doing it since the days of Reagan, why would they stop now?

107 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:29:55am

re: #98 Winny Spencer

Yeah, that would be something your average teabagger would be aware of. Not!

But surely at least some of them have read this great book!

djvu-books.narod.ru

Homosexual

Male homosexuality is illegal under all Communist regimes. The usual sentence will be five to ten years in a labor camp. As with other regulations, this will not be invariably enforced if political considerations make it convenient in individual cases to proceed otherwise. The regime occasionally prefers to secure the collaboration of the homosexual by holding the other alternative over him. In the takeover period, the police will probably be too busy to pay much attention to the persecution of [108] homosexuals in general, but gay liberation and organizations designed to promote their interests will at once be banned, and those who attempt to persist with them will be instantly arrested.

108 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:30:08am

re: #81 Sergey Romanov

Given the historical homophobia of the Commies this sounds a bit strange.

Commies like Federico Garcia Lorca?

109 Idle Drifter  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:30:47am

OT My little cousins are listening to their High School Musical CD. In the next room. Damn you, Disney! DAMN YOU!

110 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:30:47am

There’s a live stream from Wisconsin here:

channel3000.com

A lot of people there!

111 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:31:10am

Here in AR the budget is doing fine, BUT the R’s are trying to create a crisis by passing tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy which will cost the state money and cause a crisis. It helps that the Gov is a Dem who is not interested in having a deficit or cutting anymore services.

112 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:31:11am

re: #99 RadicalModerate

So, what we have from the GOP in regards to labor laws this year is the following:

1. In Missouri, a proposal is in the legislature to repeal most significant child labor laws.
2. In Wisconsin, we have this bill that Governor Walker attempted to ramrod through the legislature without debate, which removes workers’ ability to collectively bargain - the very foundation of workers’ rights.
3. There is a renewed effort at the federal level to weaken, or outright repeal OSHA worker safety laws.
4. In multiple states (Nevada, West Virginia, among others) there are proposals on the table to repeal minimum wage laws. This has also been brought up again recently by GOP representatives.

And the Tea Partiers are so disconnected from reality that they think that these people represent their best interests.

That’s the thing. It’s not just about the unions. There’s a developing pattern of deciding that worker rights and protections—those very things that only came into existence because the unions were willing to go out there and risk life and limb to protect them—need to go.

A lot of people died for the forty hour workweek, and laws that said nine-year-olds should be in school rather than a coal mine.

I do not want them to have died in vain.

113 JoyousMN  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:31:15am

re: #71 ggt

re: #64 Lidane

re: #75 theheat

As I said, there aren’t always easy answers on this stuff. You are right, countries with cheap labor can make well made products, and we do want (well I do anyway) to live in a global market. But there HAVE to be regulations and protections or people get screwed.

114 reidr  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:31:36am

re: #92 Stanley Sea

Just spoke to friend, totally anti union based on nothing more than GOP/right wing spin. No clue whatsoever about unions except the talking points.

I tried to educate. I tried.

That’s all you can do, sadly. Nothing worse than a closed, angry mind. Kudos for trying.

115 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:31:38am

Walker’s “multi-billion dollar budget deficit” is just like “there are WMDs in Iraq”.

Nothing in this hand. And nothing in this hand.

Magic!

116 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:31:59am

re: #101 Charles

Does that mean all the wingnuts are going to stay home from their altruistic non-police non-fireman non-union jobs Tuesday and begin homeskoolng their young’uns? I suppose that isn’t too much an inconvenience for True Patriots™.

It isn’t like their kids are going to slack or have premarital sex behind their backs if they collectively decide to be stay-at-home parents.
//

117 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:32:22am

re: #108 Decatur Deb

Commies like Federico Garcia Lorca?

I didn’t write “historically” for nothing. There is, of course, nothing in Communist theory that calls for persecution of gays. The fact of persecution remains.

118 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:33:02am

re: #115 Gus 802

Walker’s “multi-billion dollar budget deficit” is just like “there are WMDs in Iraq”.

Nothing in this hand. And nothing in this hand.

Magic!

It’s the Invisible Hand of the market!11!

119 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:33:04am

re: #80 jaunte

Speaker John Boehner led the GOP in lashing out at President Obama’s “allies,” who he says are backing “Greece-style” protests in Madison, Wis.

“I want to help you, Lemon, but this is not the week. Avery’s maternity leave has been cut short so she could go cover the collapse of Greece’s banking system. Since inventing democracy, those guys have been… coasting.”

- Jack Donaghy, 30 Rock

120 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:34:05am

re: #110 Charles

There’s a live stream from Wisconsin here:

[Link: www.channel3000.com…]

A lot of people there!

I still wish an Al-Jazeera truck would set up. Wouldn’t that freak out the Teabaggers!!

121 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:34:19am

re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s the thing. It’s not just about the unions. There’s a developing pattern of deciding that worker rights and protections—those very things that only came into existence because the unions were willing to go out there and risk life and limb to protect them—need to go.

A lot of people died for the forty hour workweek, and laws that said nine-year-olds should be in school rather than a coal mine.

I do not want them to have died in vain.

That’s because you’ve got Big Business, which has gotten a great deal of flak in recent years for out-sourcing so much labor, deciding that they need to handle the propaganda angle. So, do they bring back the jobs and find ways to make a profit while maintaining safe workplaces and well-paid employees? Frak no, they’ve decided they want to keep the same level of profits by simply turning America into China-lite.

122 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:34:23am

A few years ago a couple of us lizards were talking about the different unions we had been in.. Some jerk came on line and just spewed shit..
Charles logged in and humbled him and told him to apologize to each lizard he trashed or else…
Charles supports our unions that I know for a fact..
Kudos sir

123 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:34:44am

re: #118 iceweasel

It’s the Invisible Hand of the market!11!

Es un milagro!

So. Has Karl Rove shown up yet? ;)

124 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:34:50am

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m sure the State Police could have prevented them from getting across the border but…since their collective bargaining rights were also in jeopardy…

Wait, the politicians are hiding out with Watson? //

125 reidr  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:34:50am

re: #97 Talking Point Detective

I have to run, and I’m wondering if you can actually answer this question - so I’ll ask it again:

You give one example of a union theoretically voting against the interests of the membership (an example where, unless you can actually show that the union membership disagreed with the leadership’s position, your conclusion is speculative), and then assert that it happens “often.”

How do you back up your qualifier of “often?”

This seems to be a common technique (not to pick on cineaste). The right feeds the outrage against an organization based on a few isolated incidents. I don’t know all that much about Planned Parenthood, but I’ve been reading on the blogs and hearing on shows how they’ve been involved in sex rings and other craziness. I have to believe it isn’t widespread, but I guess the whole thing needs to be canned. See also ACORN!!1

126 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:35:08am

re: #117 Sergey Romanov

I didn’t write “historically” for nothing. There is, of course, nothing in Communist theory that calls for persecution of gays. The fact of persecution remains.

That’s authoritarianism, whether left or right. I don’t know the date of your quote, but I’ll bet homosexual behavior carried a similar sentence throughout the United States at the time.

127 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:35:37am

re: #85 Cineaste

Yes, democracy in action. You want a result, vote for the people that will give you that result!


That is insane. Workers should not have to vote people into office in order to get a contract signed.

I don’t agree. Well - to be clear - I agree that it’s one person, one vote - but I don’t agree that political consequences is not an effective negotiation tactic.

That’s not what I said.

What I said was that you had constructed a false analogy. The analogy that you made implied that union members were the only people voting in general elections. They are not. Your analogy fails.

Just as normal workers can’t vote on the leadership of their company except to the extent they own stock, unions can’t vote on new government except to the extent that they have members.

You don’t appear to be bothering to read what I’m writing, instead preferring to have a completely different conversation. I’m not surprised.

128 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:36:04am

re: #110 Charles

There’s a live stream from Wisconsin here:

[Link: www.channel3000.com…]

A lot of people there!

Screw us and we will multiply.

129 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:36:55am

I just posted a page with the text of the most recent letter, that I know of, from the Democratic Senators to the Governor. Check it out!

Thank you, Senator Miller!

130 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:37:07am

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m sure the State Police could have prevented them from getting across the border but…since their collective bargaining rights were also in jeopardy…

Actually, they aren’t. The police and firefighters are exempted from the crap that Walker is trying to pull because they endorsed him for office.

131 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:37:10am

re: #113 JoyousMN

Yes, but I can’t regulate China or India or Pakistan or Malaysia, or any other country we buy a lot of imports from. Global regulations are pretty delicate, particularly if it only serves to protect the US.

132 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:37:57am

re: #110 Charles

There’s a live stream from Wisconsin here:

[Link: www.channel3000.com…]

A lot of people there!

Breitbart has a live feed of his goons over at Breitbart TV.

Should I post the link?

133 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:37:58am

re: #125 reidr

This seems to be a common technique (not to pick on cineaste). The right feeds the outrage against an organization based on a few isolated incidents. I don’t know all that much about Planned Parenthood, but I’ve been reading on the blogs and hearing on shows how they’ve been involved in sex rings and other craziness. I have to believe it isn’t widespread, but I guess the whole thing needs to be canned. See also ACORN!!1

I’m sure that cineaste will explain how his highly speculative conclusion about one example is characteristic of what happens “often.”

Any minute now.

134 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:38:04am

re: #128 Stanley Sea

Screw us and we will multiply.

Yeah baby.

Image: hmmm.jpg

135 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:38:22am

re: #123 Gus 802

Es un milagro!

So. Has Karl Rove shown up yet? ;)


He’s holding hands with the invisible hand right now….

136 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:38:29am

repost from previous thread #463 regarding Planned Parenthood:

“It’s one thing to propose to reduce funding as every category of the budget is getting it. To try to eliminate funding for a particular category based soley only on a ideological difference is irresponsible.”

correction mine.

137 albusteve  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:38:56am

re: #130 Lidane

Actually, they aren’t. The police and firefighters are exempted from the crap that Walker is trying to pull because they endorsed him for office.

nothing new or even wrong with that…it’s a tradition and legal, no sense in hiding or playing pretend….you pay off those that bought you, it’s the way it works

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:39:11am

re: #135 iceweasel

He’s holding hands with the invisible hand right now…

There’s also an invisible hand of marriage, according to Andy Schlafly. But it doesn’t work for gay marriage.

139 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:39:36am

re: #126 Decatur Deb

That’s authoritarianism, whether left or right. I don’t know the date of your quote, but I’ll bet homosexual behavior carried a similar sentence throughout the United States at the time.

The quote was just for fun, it’s a joke book (though not literally), an example of the right-wing anti-Commie paranoia, but not without some facts thrown in. Male homosexuality was outlawed from 1933 and until USSR fell apart (it was made legal in different republics at different times after the collapse, in Russia in 1993).

140 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:39:49am

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

There’s also an invisible hand of marriage

My mind is in the gutter today.

141 Idle Drifter  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:39:56am

re: #131 theheat

Yes, but I can’t regulate China or India or Pakistan or Malaysia, or any other country we buy a lot of imports from. Global regulations are pretty delicate, particularly if it only serves to protect the US.

Not to mention any attempt to tariff imported goods will just start a trade war. Yes, I’ve heard people argue for tariffs.

142 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:40:41am

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

There’s also an invisible hand of marriage, according to Andy Schlafly. But it doesn’t work for gay marriage.

There is, but it’s called fisting.
//

To them, it’s all about teh butt sex.

143 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:40:44am

re: #141 Idle Drifter

We have a lot of tarrifs on goods.

144 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:41:00am

re: #137 albusteve

At the same time, however, workers don’t suddenly lose their rights because their union endorsed the other guy for office.

What Walker is trying to pull is still wrong.

145 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:41:22am

re: #131 theheat

Yes, but I can’t regulate China or India or Pakistan or Malaysia, or any other country we buy a lot of imports from. Global regulations are pretty delicate, particularly if it only serves to protect the US.

Actually, wasn’t part of the agreements Obama made with China recently about exactly that. Our federal departments can go into their factories and “consult” on conditions.

No, it’s not the whole world, but a significant start.

Corporations can also refuse to buy from factories that don’t follow certain standards. Some do, some don’t.

We also have import regulations.

Again, as we work to bring the rest of the world up to our standards, it will make the rest of the world our competitor.

Growing pains … .

146 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:41:45am

re: #132 Gus 802

Breitbart has a live feed of his goons over at Breitbart TV.

Should I post the link?

Tweeted.

147 Idle Drifter  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:41:51am

re: #143 Obdicut

I stand corrected.

148 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:42:19am

re: #143 Obdicut

We have a lot of tarrifs on goods.

Yep, such as on ethanol imports from countries like Brazil, which the Right never mentions in their assertions that ethanol isn’t economical and a dead-end.

149 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:42:33am

re: #139 Sergey Romanov

The quote was just for fun, it’s a joke book (though not literally), an example of the right-wing anti-Commie paranoia, but not without some facts thrown in. Male homosexuality was outlawed from 1933 and until USSR fell apart (it was made legal in different republics at different times after the collapse, in Russia in 1993).

only male?

hmmmmmm, guess that left the brothels alone then huh?

150 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:43:00am

back later— crappy laptop. Have a good day folks.

151 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:43:18am

re: #141 Idle Drifter

Not to mention any attempt to tariff imported goods will just start a trade war. Yes, I’ve heard people argue for tariffs.

Yes, and many of those same people shop at Wal-Mart… at night. They don’t want to acknowledge how tariffs affect everything from what we pay for goods - living on the same income - and how it impacts foreign relations.

152 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:43:21am

re: #149 ggt

Did you mean “lesbians” instead of “brothels”? ;)

153 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:43:24am

re: #145 ggt

I’d like to see us do a lot more of that. Too often, however, the US works to secure the opposite.

154 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:44:32am

re: #97 Talking Point Detective

Here is a paper that shows that Union leadership (specifically AFL-CIO) will act in ways that harm shareholder value, even when the shareholders are union pension holders, in order to obtain short-term labor benefits:

blogs.law.harvard.edu

155 albusteve  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:44:47am

re: #144 Lidane

At the same time, however, workers don’t suddenly lose their rights because their union endorsed the other guy for office.

What Walker is trying to pull is still wrong.

it’s hardball, not a matter of right or wrong, it’s the way govt works in some form or another and unions are the masters of greasing the wheels to their favor….I don’t agree with this bill as it’s written, but it is interesting to watch

156 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:44:53am

re: #152 Sergey Romanov

Did you mean “lesbians” instead of “brothels”? ;)

No, I meant the pleasure domes of the males. I meant to imply that lesbian sex is ok if they get to watch … .

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:46:05am

re: #156 ggt

No, I meant the pleasure domes of the males. I meant to imply that lesbian sex is ok if they get to watch …

I think I mentioned this a while back, here, but I finally got around to reading Sholem Asch’s play, God of Vengeance. It’s set in a brothel, and has a lesbian relationship as part of the plot.

Banned in the US in the 20s!! Yiddish smut!!

158 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:46:06am

re: #97 Talking Point Detective

I have to run, and I’m wondering if you can actually answer this question - so I’ll ask it again:

You give one example of a union theoretically voting against the interests of the membership (an example where, unless you can actually show that the union membership disagreed with the leadership’s position, your conclusion is speculative), and then assert that it happens “often.”

And yes, it’s speculative, but, if it is not wildly speculative. The true arbiter of whether I’m correct in my speculation would have been a vote. The only logical reason not to vote is that the leadership might not have gotten the result they wanted. Yes, that is drawing a conclusion, but the data at hand I think points to it not being a wildly unreasonable conclusion.

159 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:46:25am

micahuetricht Micah Uetricht

CONFIRMED: Further violence in WI Capitol. A woman just entered hallway, unsolicited, and gave us all homemade cookies #WIunion #killthisbill

160 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:46:51am

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

I think I mentioned this a while back, here, but I finally got around to reading Sholem Asch’s play, God of Vengeance. It’s set in a brothel, and has a lesbian relationship as part of the plot.

Banned in the US in the 20s!! Yiddish smut!!

Is it a good read?

161 Idle Drifter  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:47:09am

usitc.gov

The longer I live the more I realize how much I don’t know.

162 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:47:13am

re: #156 ggt

OK, I asked because there is really no connection - both brothels and male h-ty were illegal, just for different reasons.

163 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:47:46am

Now they have Tim Phillips up from American’s for Prosperity.

Americans for Prosperity (AFP) is an astroturf front group started by oil billioniare David Koch and Richard Fink (a member of the board of directors of Koch Industries). AFP works together with the Koch family’s other conservative foundations and think tanks to disrupt Barack Obama’s presidency. Accordingly, AFP has opposed health care reform, stimulus spending, and cap-and-trade legislation, which is aimed at making industries pay for the air pollution that they create. AFP was also involved in the attacks on Obama’s “green jobs” czar, Van Jones, and has crusaded against international climate talks. According to an article in the August 30, 2010 issue of The New Yorker, the Kochs are known for “creating slippery organizations with generic-sounding names,” that “make it difficult to ascertain the extent of their influence in Washington.”

164 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:48:15am

re: #145 ggt

Again, as we work to bring the rest of the world up to our standards, it will make the rest of the world our competitor.

I understand what you’re saying, but in many cases, it isn’t necessary for other countries’ manufacturers to rise to our standards in order to be competitive and sell globally.

That would be up to their work forces and their own domestic demands, which can only be influenced by every country purchasing from them to demand the same conditions.

Probably not going to happen soon enough to benefit us to the degree we need.

165 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:48:26am

re: #159 Stanley Sea

micahuetricht Micah Uetricht

CONFIRMED: Further violence in WI Capitol. A woman just entered hallway, unsolicited, and gave us all homemade cookies #WIunion #killthisbill

When will the madness end?! Won’t somebody PLEASE think of the children?!

///

166 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:48:33am

Hah! We made the BBC!

bbc.co.uk

167 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:48:36am

re: #125 reidr

This seems to be a common technique (not to pick on cineaste). The right feeds the outrage against an organization based on a few isolated incidents. I don’t know all that much about Planned Parenthood, but I’ve been reading on the blogs and hearing on shows how they’ve been involved in sex rings and other craziness. I have to believe it isn’t widespread, but I guess the whole thing needs to be canned. See also ACORN!!1

First: no worries, you’re not picking on me.

Second: I missed him in the thread before, but I tried to respond below.

Third: I’m not “the right”. Historically you’ll see I’m pretty clearly center-left.

168 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:49:37am

re: #162 Sergey Romanov

OK, I asked because there is really no connection - both brothels and male h-ty were illegal, just for different reasons.

right, but brothels, like homosexuality, always exist.

I was making the connection that in male-dominated societies, men often see lesbianism as benign because it fulfils a fantasy.

Why would the law be written to make illegal specifically “male” homosexuality?

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:49:53am

re: #160 ggt

Is it a good read?

It’s interesting. Quite short. I found it fascinating from the perspective of an American Jew who was raised on the myth of the wholesome shtetl that was like an American suburb, but with chickens and piety. You can find it online, I believe.

170 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:49:57am

The Koch brothers are largely bank rolling today’s opposition rally.

171 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:50:25am

re: #146 Gus 802

Tweeted.

How can we watch it without cybercooties?

172 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:51:01am

re: #171 Decatur Deb

How can we watch it without cybercooties?

That’s up to you. It’s better to know IMO.

173 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:51:29am

re: #170 Gus 802

The Koch brothers are largely bank rolling today’s opposition rally.

And could only draw in 300 mouth-breathers? Hope they kept the receipt.

174 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:51:36am

LOL!!!

Jim Hoft is next!

175 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:51:40am

re: #146 Gus 802

Tweeted.

I think I just had a seizure looking at your twitter background.

176 reidr  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:52:09am

re: #167 Cineaste

First: no worries, you’re not picking on me.

Second: I missed him in the thread before, but I tried to respond below.

Third: I’m not “the right”. Historically you’ll see I’m pretty clearly center-left.

The discussion you were having just reminded me of my point; I didn’t even really know if it was relevant to you. Thanks for being a good sport about it.

I’m an irregular here (and in life), so I don’t have a good idea of everyone’s political leanings. In general, the whole shebang seems to be moving left, which makes me happy since I’m center-left (AKA moderate) these days, too.

177 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:52:16am

re: #172 Gus 802

That’s up to you. It’s better to know IMO.

I’ll wait and go to an online vid that doesn’t give him a hit.

178 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:52:28am

Tea Party sign:
twitpic.com

179 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:52:28am

re: #164 theheat

I understand what you’re saying, but in many cases, it isn’t necessary for other countries’ manufacturers to rise to our standards in order to be competitive and sell globally.

That would be up to their work forces and their own domestic demands, which can only be influenced by every country purchasing from them to demand the same conditions.

Probably not going to happen soon enough to benefit us to the degree we need.

Now, I’m confused. Do you mean manufacturing standards or “treatment of workers” standard?

Slaves can produce satisfactory goods that would be much cheaper …

Isn’t that really the subject at hand? Without organized labor, the working conditions for the average laborer could be eroded (in theory) to the level of slavery?

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:52:31am

re: #168 ggt

right, but brothels, like homosexuality, always exist.

I was making the connection that in male-dominated societies, men often see lesbianism as benign because it fulfils a fantasy.

Why would the law be written to make illegal specifically “male” homosexuality?

A charming legend has it that lesbianism was not outlawed in Victorian England because when Victoria was asked her opinion on the proposed bill, she inquired, “What could two women do together?” and no one wanted to get explicit with the Queen.

This is almost assuredly not true, but you can just see Victoria asking this with a straight face, and the politicians looking nervously at one another.

181 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:52:44am

And a column in The Guardian:

guardian.co.uk

182 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:53:18am

He has a high pitched voice.

183 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:53:30am

re: #125 reidr

This seems to be a common technique (not to pick on cineaste). The right feeds the outrage against an organization based on a few isolated incidents. I don’t know all that much about Planned Parenthood, but I’ve been reading on the blogs and hearing on shows how they’ve been involved in sex rings and other craziness. I have to believe it isn’t widespread, but I guess the whole thing needs to be canned. See also ACORN!!1

I read a year or so ago on CNN how two separate churches in Texas were involved in sex rings. “I have to believe it isn’t widespread.”

184 reidr  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:53:31am

re: #175 recusancy

I think I just had a seizure looking at your twitter background.

Yeah, that freaked me out a bit, too. I was able to close the tab after about ten minutes.

185 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:53:41am

So is it true that only 300 or Tea Party folks showed up and most were bused from other areas?

(I’m sure Malkin will report it was 300,000.)

186 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:54:06am

OT: How ate up with basketball am I? I’m watching All-Star practice on NBA TV…How hard could it be as a coach?
Pops: OK pass the ball to Kobe and double screen! LOL
I swear I missed my calling
*wink*
/Players are in a union also.. of course teachers max contract are not for 60 million

187 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:54:12am

re: #182 Gus 802

He has a high pitched voice.

3 seconds. That’s all I could handle. Keep reporting Gus, you are appreciated.

188 reidr  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:54:59am

re: #183 theheat

I read a year or so ago on CNN how two separate churches in Texas were involved in sex rings. “I have to believe it isn’t widespread.”

I’m starting to see the wisdom of uncalled-for extrapolation, hm….

/

189 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:55:05am

re: #187 Stanley Sea

3 seconds. That’s all I could handle. Keep reporting Gus, you are appreciated.

Thanks. Good to hear as opposed to a couple of folks complaining about the background.

190 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:55:18am

re: #173 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And could only draw in 300 mouth-breathers? Hope they kept the receipt.

Back when people actually thought the Teabaggers were sane, the only drew 4,500 to Madison at their biggest. 300 sounds about right for a state that is getting pissed off at being lied to by Scooter.

191 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:55:53am

re: #168 ggt

Apparently they just did not see a symmetrical phenomenon in female homosexuality. Male homosexuality was perceived as a right-wing, bourgeois manifestation, and there was such a perception. There is some data about gay circles among Russian mid-to-high strata (e.g. a famous Tsarist police report giving lots of names of “known” homosexuals), despite the Church influence, so it was probably seen as some sort of a sign of decay. I’m not even sure that the people who wrote the law even conceptualized the female homosexuality as a separate phenomenon.

192 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:57:35am

re: #191 Sergey Romanov

Apparently they just did not see a symmetrical phenomenon in female homosexuality. Male homosexuality was perceived as a right-wing, bourgeois manifestation, and there was such a perception. There is some data about gay circles among Russian mid-to-high strata (e.g. a famous Tsarist police report giving lots of names of “known” homosexuals), despite the Church influence, so it was probably seen as some sort of a sign of decay. I’m not even sure that the people who wrote the law even conceptualized the female homosexuality as a separate phenomenon.

You are probably right. Women were not really seen, legally anyway, as people.

193 reidr  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:59:00am

re: #189 Gus 802

Thanks. Good to hear as opposed to a couple of folks complaining about the background.

Not complaining, just good-natured poking fun. I don’t twit, but I understand the rest of the world runs on it, so keep up the good work.

194 Girl with a Pearl Earring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:59:05am

re: #116 theheat

‘re: #101 Charles

“Does that mean all the wingnuts are going to stay home from their altruistic non-police non-fireman non-union jobs Tuesday and begin homeskoolng their young’uns? I suppose that isn’t too much an inconvenience for True Patriots™.”

Perhaps they might do what they did in Sierra Vista, AZ in the fall of 1980, when teachers at all the schools in Sierra Vista went on strike for approximately six weeks. Officers’ wives (those with college degrees) from the Army post at Ft. Huachuca stepped in and became substitute teachers. There were enough of them to fulfill the job until the strike was over. No, they didn’t get paid; they volunteered.

How many parents in WI could/would do the same thing? I’m sure the little kiddies would love to be back in school. :)

195 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:59:06am

re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist

It’s interesting. Quite short. I found it fascinating from the perspective of an American Jew who was raised on the myth of the wholesome shtetl that was like an American suburb, but with chickens and piety. You can find it online, I believe.

Nothing on audio :(

196 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:59:26am

re: #179 ggt

Now, I’m confused. Do you mean manufacturing standards or “treatment of workers” standard?


Treatment of workers.

Slaves can produce satisfactory goods that would be much cheaper …

And they often are, if you look at their pay and working conditions.

Unless every nation purchasing from that company (or country) demands a certain level of treatment by its work force, they will continue to manufacture competitively priced goods importers are more than happy to redistribute, no matter how much blood might be on them.

I know people from the US that have gone to China, for example, to personally oversee some of the manufacturing. They come home with tales of peopleworking for nothing without complaining and abusing dogs in live animal for sale markets, yet excited about the swinging deal they just closed and how much more money they planned to make.

Where corporations are concerned, yes, you really do have to legislate conscience.

197 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:59:27am

“One final thought”

Yeah, you just had it. *Hits the close button on the tab*

198 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:59:53am

re: #192 ggt

In the Soviet society they were. And even Stalin, a social conservative, was explicitly going against the old patriarchal order (on this see e.g. Sheila Fitzpatrick’s Stalin’s peasants).

199 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:59:58am

re: #176 reidr

Here’s another example from the last year where Union leaders will willing to see several hundred city worker laid off rather than put it to a member vote:

scpr.org

200 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:03:20pm

re: #194 Girl with a Pearl Earring

But how well did they actually do at teaching?

201 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:03:22pm

re: #199 Cineaste

And here’s a case from this past year of members choosing to save jobs over benefits when they were allowed to vote on it:

nydailynews.com

202 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:03:38pm

re: #199 Cineaste

Here’s another example from the last year where Union leaders will willing to see several hundred city worker laid off rather than put it to a member vote:

[Link: www.scpr.org…]

The take away is: Whenever you have a centralized power structure sometimes the few holding power will not use it for the overall good. Sometimes government is corrupt. Sometimes companies are corrupt. Sometimes unions are corrupt. What’s your point?

203 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:03:50pm

I take some comfort in the fact that oil will be ridiculously expensive within a decade or two, and the cost of shipping goods from China will exceed the difference between Chinese and American wages. With the global energy crisis will come reduced American unemployment.

Of course, it will suck in a huge way for many other reasons, but there’s that small silver lining.

204 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:04:16pm

re: #198 Sergey Romanov

In the Soviet society they were. And even Stalin, a social conservative, was explicitly going against the old patriarchal order (on this see e.g. Sheila Fitzpatrick’s Stalin’s peasants).

Then the wording of the legislation totally baffles me.

Perhaps male homosexuality wasn’t seen as a “romantic” or “love” act, but an act of violence or domination?

205 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:04:41pm

re: #200 Obdicut

But how well did they actually do at teaching?

Pfft. As if that matters.

206 reidr  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:04:54pm

re: #199 Cineaste

Here’s another example from the last year where Union leaders will willing to see several hundred city worker laid off rather than put it to a member vote:

[Link: www.scpr.org…]

I think most everyone admits there are problems with unions. This heavy-handed, ideologically-driven attempt to squash them is what’s pissed everyone off. If Walker had just negotiated lower benefits, none of this would have happened, I bet. Wingnuts tend to overestimate their popular support; combined with their fundamental sureness that they’re right, they overstep their bounds. Fortunately.

207 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:05:01pm

Tea partiers cheering for union-busting. Absolutely bizarre.

208 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:05:02pm

re: #203 Fozzie Bear

I take some comfort in the fact that oil will be ridiculously expensive within a decade or two, and the cost of shipping goods from China will exceed the difference between Chinese and American wages. With the global energy crisis will come reduced American unemployment.

Of course, it will suck in a huge way for many other reasons, but there’s that small silver lining.

Oil will just be subsidized more.

209 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:05:20pm

Chickenhawk and novelist goon Brad Thor is speaking now.

210 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:05:22pm

Opposing sides meet as Capitol protests enter sixth day

“Tens of thousands of people are descending on the state Capitol Saturday for the sixth day of protests targeting a controversial budget repair bill that effectively strips public workers of their collective bargaining rights.”

host.madison.com

211 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:05:24pm

re: #202 recusancy

The take away is: Whenever you have a centralized power structure sometimes the few holding power will not use it for the overall good. Sometimes government is corrupt. Sometimes companies are corrupt. Sometimes unions are corrupt. What’s your point?

That unions must all be busted and broken up because they’re evil, of course.

212 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:05:31pm

re: #201 Cineaste

You read that backwards, you know, right?

Members of the union representing Queens Library workers have overwhelmingly rejected a plan to cut their benefits to save the jobs of 46 fellow employees facing layoffs next month.


Union leaders said members rejected the plan because library officials were unable to make important promises.

“Queens Library workers are willing to sacrifice to help their co-workers and friends keep their jobs with the caveat all concessions must be temporary and guarantee no layoffs for the fiscal year,” said John Hyslop, president of the Queens Library Guild, Local 1321.

Did you bother to read the story?

213 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:06:15pm

re: #207 Charles

Tea partiers cheering for union-busting. Absolutely bizarre.

Seriously. Talk about voting against your own interests.

214 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:06:26pm

re: #207 Charles

Tea partiers cheering for union-busting. Absolutely bizarre.

Not really. The Tea Party has always stood for the right of the working man to get shafted, while praising the shafters for their good American values.

215 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:06:28pm

re: #207 Charles

Tea partiers cheering for union-busting. Absolutely bizarre.

Only if you think they exercise autonomous intelligence.

216 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:06:38pm

It think there is a meme that equates Unions with Organized Crime.

Like any other organization, corruption is there.

We could also equate Organized Crime with other institutions, but such comparisons are usually ridiculous.

History is history.

217 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:06:41pm

re: #158 Cineaste

And yes, it’s speculative, but, if it is not wildly speculative. The true arbiter of whether I’m correct in my speculation would have been a vote. The only logical reason not to vote is that the leadership might not have gotten the result they wanted. Yes, that is drawing a conclusion, but the data at hand I think points to it not being a wildly unreasonable conclusion.

I don’t know - you haven’t provided anything specific about the nature of the vote and/or the likely position of the members that supports your conclusion. Maybe the leadership was so sure of their position that they felt it wasn’t necessary to put it to a vote.

But the larger conclusion that you draw - that the leadership of unions “often” vote against the interests of the membership seems counter-intuitive. If leadership “often” votes against the interests of the members, it would seem likely that they would get voted out of office.

Sure, I’d say that lower-income social conservatives “often” vote against their economic best interests because of demagoguing and demonizing of libz, issues like abortion, etc., but unless you can explain a similar parallel, it sure seems like in the absolute best case you’re overgeneralizing from one example.

218 RadicalModerate  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:07:10pm

re: #194 Girl with a Pearl Earring

Sierra Vista, Arizona - 1980 Population: ~32,000
State of Wisconsin - 2010 Population: 5.7 million

I really don’t think your solution of having volunteers coming in as unpaid substitutes is going to work very well at this scale.

219 reidr  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:07:13pm

re: #211 Lidane

That unions must all be busted and broken up because they’re evil, of course.

Psssst, I hear they’ve been involved in sex rings….

/

220 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:07:30pm

Head asshole is up next.

221 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:07:53pm

re: #217 Talking Point Detective

See my 212. His last example proves the opposite of his point; members overwhelmingly rejected a cut to benefits even though it meant job losses.

222 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:07:55pm

re: #202 recusancy

The take away is: Whenever you have a centralized power structure sometimes the few holding power will not use it for the overall good. Sometimes government is corrupt. Sometimes companies are corrupt. Sometimes unions are corrupt. What’s your point?

No, I didn’t say corrupt. There’s nothing corrupt about what I’m describing. It’s just a misalignment of incentives. Yes, some unions may be corrupt but that’s a wholly separate issue.

223 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:08:04pm

re: #214 SanFranciscoZionist

Not really. The Tea Party has always stood for the right of the working man to get shafted, while praising the shafters for their good American values.

Not to mention the delusion that, if they help the shafters, they’ll get helped in return.

224 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:08:23pm

re: #206 reidr

I think most everyone admits there are problems with unions.

There are problems with ALL organizations because people are involved.

I always laugh when I read someone complaining about a “bad” teacher not getting fired because of the union when I can think of 2 or 3 people at any non-union job I have had that everyone thought should be fired but they never were.

225 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:08:31pm

re: #206 reidr

I think most everyone admits there are problems with unions. This heavy-handed, ideologically-driven attempt to squash them is what’s pissed everyone off. If Walker had just negotiated lower benefits, none of this would have happened, I bet. Wingnuts tend to overestimate their popular support; combined with their fundamental sureness that they’re right, they overstep their bounds. Fortunately.

Nothing about that statement I would disagree with whatsoever.

+1

226 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:08:38pm

re: #220 Gus 802

Head asshole is up next.

Yeah, worst case of cranial-rectal inversion that I’ve ever seen.

227 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:08:39pm

re: #218 RadicalModerate

Sierra Vista, Arizona - 1980 Population: ~32,000
State of Wisconsin - 2010 Population: 5.7 million

I really don’t think your solution of having volunteers coming in as unpaid substitutes is going to work very well at this scale.

It’s not a viable option. In the short term, it could be great. In the long term—not a-gonna happen.

228 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:09:00pm

re: #223 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Not to mention the delusion that, if they help the shafters, they’ll get helped in return.

They are most likely retired, living off pensions.

I want to see some photos of the baggers.

229 Interesting Times  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:09:05pm

re: #220 Gus 802

Head asshole is up next.

Such a beautifully apt description for the position of breitbart and his followers :P

230 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:09:26pm

re: #211 Lidane

That unions must all be busted and broken up because they’re evil, of course.

Read… it does a mind good.

But if you’d rather, just say random shit that has nothing to do with the conversation in the hopes of getting up-dings.

231 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:09:58pm

re: #229 publicityStunted

Such a beautifully apt description for the position of breitbart and his followers :P

My live feed just went belly up.

232 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:10:06pm

re: #230 Cineaste

Speaking of reading, did you notice my 212?

One of the stories you claimed showed members voting to save jobs at the cost of benefits, actually said the exact opposite.

Before you get all sarcastic with others, perhaps following your own advice would be a good idea?

233 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:10:22pm

re: #231 Gus 802

My live feed just went belly up.

Koch Brothers must have figured out they’d been suckered and pulled the plug.

234 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:10:41pm

re: #222 Cineaste

No, I didn’t say corrupt. There’s nothing corrupt about what I’m describing. It’s just a misalignment of incentives. Yes, some unions may be corrupt but that’s a wholly separate issue.

But there’s misalignment of incentives in government and companies and yes, unions. My point stands. So what? You aren’t going to find a perfect system. The best you can do it strive to make it better. Again, what is your point? What are you arguing? I’d prefer an imperfect union to no union. What’s your suggestion?

235 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:10:44pm

Breitbart: “America is going to be community organized no more.”

236 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:10:45pm

re: #231 Gus 802

My live feed just went belly up.

Union electricians.

237 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:10:51pm

re: #224 webevintage

There are problems with ALL organizations because people are involved.

I always laugh when I read someone complaining about a “bad” teacher not getting fired because of the union when I can think of 2 or 3 people at any non-union job I have had that everyone thought should be fired but they never were.

It is difficult for a large corporation to fire anyone as well. HR has to have all the “i’s” dotted and the the “t’s” crossed. The usual alternative is to make the working conditions of that particular employee such that they quit.

Not a good situation either way.

238 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:11:04pm

LOL! He’s talking about home skooling!

239 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:11:50pm

Breitbart lecturing about lying.
Heh

240 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:01pm

re: #217 Talking Point Detective

But the larger conclusion that you draw - that the leadership of unions “often” vote against the interests of the membership seems counter-intuitive. If leadership “often” votes against the interests of the members, it would seem likely that they would get voted out of office.

To be precise, you’re misquoting me. I said that union leaderships’ incentives were often misaligned. First of all, Union leaders don’t “vote” against their members. But more importantly, just because your incentives are misaligned does not mean that you will act in concordance with those incentives. They are incentives, not rules.

241 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:02pm

re: #235 Charles

Breitbart: “America is going to be community organized no more.”

Yeah! Who needs community organizing in a country of 300+ million? People should be able to pull themselves up by the bootstraps entirely on their own.

///

242 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:05pm

re: #194 Girl with a Pearl Earring

The roll up their sleeves sewing circle of volunteer teachers isn’t a long term solution, unless private and faith based institutions become the only alternative to a shut down public school system.

Which may be exactly what those patriots in Wisconsin believe. Perhaps they can follow Oklahoma, and propose Muslims won’t take over when theocracy becomes the new learning institution.

243 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:11pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

Breitbart lecturing about lying.
Heh

Well, one often learns best when being taught by a master.

244 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:14pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

Finally, he’s speaking to his strengths.

245 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:21pm

Anarchists!

246 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:25pm

re: #199 Cineaste

Here’s another example from the last year where Union leaders will willing to see several hundred city worker laid off rather than put it to a member vote:

[Link: www.scpr.org…]

Is that an example of union leaders working against the interests of the members? How so? Do you have evidence that the members were in disagreement with the leadership’s decision??

If you had an example where after initially refusing to put it to a vote, it was later put to a vote without the conditions of the terms having changed, and it was then approved by the membership, then you’d have proof of your assertion.

247 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:39pm

re: #208 recusancy

Oil will just be subsidized more.

When demand exceeds supply by a large margin, it won’t be possible to subsidize it enough to make it affordable.

A gallon of gas contains the caloric energy of about 700 hours of human labor. So, (700 * wage) is a good rough estimate of the “ceiling” price for gasoline. At 5 bucks an hour, that’s 3500 bucks. Considering that much of the work energy we derive from oil just can’t be replaced by human labor, that represents a gap which cannot simply be subsidized away.

Global oil production has not increased since 2004-2005. It remains flat, despite massive extraction efforts. Demand continues to rise exponentially. The global economy is going to crater in the next 10-20 years, unless we can dramatically reduce our dependence on oil for transportation energy, now. As that doesn’t seem likely, we are fucked.

BUT, all that work energy will need to be replaced, and there are lots of unemployed people. So, small silver lining.

248 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:42pm

re: #194 Girl with a Pearl Earring


How many parents in WI could/would do the same thing? I’m sure the little kiddies would love to be back in school. :)

Not many.
Most officers wives at that time were probably not working moms, but gals who stayed home so they were able to step in.
Poor/working/middle class parents can not just stay home from work….most moms are working moms, in my neighborhood I am one of 2 stay at home moms.
Normally in a long strike the schools are open and staffed with staff.

249 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:46pm

Anti-gummy bears!

250 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:46pm

Chemtrails!

251 Idle Drifter  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:48pm

re: #203 Fozzie Bear

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

Nothing like the Apocalypse to end unemployment.

252 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:12:57pm

re: #221 Obdicut

See my 212. His last example proves the opposite of his point; members overwhelmingly rejected a cut to benefits even though it meant job losses.

Trying to catch up..

Imagine my surprise!!

253 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:13:35pm

re: #247 Fozzie Bear

When demand exceeds supply by a large margin, it won’t be possible to subsidize it enough to make it affordable.

A gallon of gas contains the caloric energy of about 700 hours of human labor. So, (700 * wage) is a good rough estimate of the “ceiling” price for gasoline. At 5 bucks an hour, that’s 3500 bucks. Considering that much of the work energy we derive from oil just can’t be replaced by human labor, that represents a gap which cannot simply be subsidized away.

Global oil production has not increased since 2004-2005. It remains flat, despite massive extraction efforts. Demand continues to rise exponentially. The global economy is going to crater in the next 10-20 years, unless we can dramatically reduce our dependence on oil for transportation energy, now. As that doesn’t seem likely, we are fucked.

BUT, all that work energy will need to be replaced, and there are lots of unemployed people. So, small silver lining.

High speed electric rail?

254 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:14:06pm

Breitbart: “The mainstream media is trying to provoke Tea Partiers to violence.”

255 Idle Drifter  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:14:13pm

re: #235 Charles

Breitbart: “America is going to be community organized no more.”

Fuck the What?

256 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:14:45pm

re: #221 Obdicut

See my 212. His last example proves the opposite of his point; members overwhelmingly rejected a cut to benefits even though it meant job losses.

That’s not what the article said. It said they agreed to benefit cuts so long as they were not permanent and their fellow employees stayed on the job. They collectively agreed to short-term benefits reductions in exchange for greater employment. That is entirely in alignment with my points above.

257 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:15:04pm

re: #204 ggt

Then the wording of the legislation totally baffles me.

Perhaps male homosexuality wasn’t seen as a “romantic” or “love” act, but an act of violence or domination?

Basically what was punished is the voluntary act of sodomy (up to 5 years) or involuntary act of sodomy (up to 8 years). According to pseudology.org the initiator of the law was OGPU chief Genrikh Yagoda, who wrote to Stalin about a network of homosexual brothels and groups busted recently and warned that caste system of “pederasts” will likely be used for counter-revolutionary activity, and will try to get into the Army and the Navy. Stalin’s resolution was to punish those busted as well as to amend the law. Soon Politburo confirmed Yagoda’s proposal to introduce anti-sodomy law (with the exception of Kalinin, who was against amending but for extrajudicial measures).

(In the same article there is a mention of what is basically a precursor to the Pink Swastika - in 1934 Maksim Gor’ky wrote about the “connection” between homosexuality and fascism, noting that there is an (alleged) saying among people “Destroy homosexuality - and fascism will vanish!”.)

258 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:15:11pm

re: #254 Charles

Breitbart: “The mainstream media is trying to provoke Tea Partiers to violence.”

That tells you his script and explains the taunting: He wants video of some old TP getting stomped.

259 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:15:45pm

Now he’s rambling.

260 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:16:08pm

re: #259 Gus 802

Now he’s rambling.

So, in other words, his natural state of being?

261 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:16:08pm

It’s all the media’s fault!

Eleventy!!11ty

262 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:16:22pm

re: #259 Gus 802

Now he’s rambling.

He’s trying to pimp long dead outrageous outrages.

263 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:16:28pm

re: #254 Charles

Breitbart: “The mainstream media is trying to provoke Tea Partiers to violence.”

MSM called for a Spelling Bee at eleven. Pissed the whole lot off.
//

264 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:17:04pm

re: #256 Cineaste

It said they rejected a plan to cut their benefits, that would have saved jobs.

That they would have been willing to take a temporary cut in benefits to save jobs was not, actually, your claim.

You said this:

And here’s a case from this past year of members choosing to save jobs over benefits when they were allowed to vote on it:

Did they vote to save jobs, or benefits?

Why did you say ‘allowed’, as though union leadership was trying to prevent the vote?

265 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:17:04pm

Joe “The Idiot” Plumber!

266 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:17:45pm

re: #254 Charles

Breitbart: “The mainstream media is trying to provoke Tea Partiers to violence.”

Give me an example, Mr. Breitbart. Are they, for example, screaming “homo” and “commie” at the Tea Partiers? Because if you have footage of people from NBC doing that, I would be very interested to see it.

267 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:18:19pm

re: #234 recusancy

But there’s misalignment of incentives in government and companies and yes, unions. My point stands. So what? You aren’t going to find a perfect system. The best you can do it strive to make it better. Again, what is your point? What are you arguing? I’d prefer an imperfect union to no union. What’s your suggestion?

My point was solely that misaligned incentives can lead to poor results. Nothing more. I said repeatedly I’m not against unions but that doesn’t mean we can’t discuss the problems that unions have. I didn’t realize we could only discuss something if there was a perfect solution on the table.

268 reidr  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:18:21pm

re: #237 ggt

It is difficult for a large corporation to fire anyone as well. HR has to have all the “i’s” dotted and the the “t’s” crossed. The usual alternative is to make the working conditions of that particular employee such that they quit.

Not a good situation either way.

Don’t worry, they’re probably planning on targeting all of those annoying “i” and “t” regulations next. More power to the CEOs!

269 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:18:46pm

re: #266 SanFranciscoZionist

Give me an example, Mr. Breitbart. Are they, for example, screaming “homo” and “commie” at the Tea Partiers? Because if you have footage of people from NBC doing that, I would be very interested to see it.

I met he can “edit” you some….

270 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:18:57pm

And this asshole is talking about accountability? And he’s at a rally against unions?

Weird. These people are odd.

271 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:19:02pm

re: #253 ggt

High speed electric rail?

That would help, a little. As would electric cars, since electricity generation is more easily transitioned to renewables than transportation fuels.

Regardless, it’s not really possible any longer to do anything other than soften the blow. Will will be in a global depression orders of magnitude worse than the great depression within 20 years, and it will last for decades. What is happening now is just the first twinges of that pain.

We have a long way to fall, and we will spend the rest of our lives watching it all fall apart, i’m afraid. Of course, we could spend massive amounts of money RIGHT FUCKING NOW to transition as rapidly as possible, build a few hundred nuclear plants, spend a trillion or so a year on research, and we might be able to significantly soften the blow. But, there isn’t the political will for that, so we’re fucked. Absolutely fucked.

And here we are fighting each other, instead of dealing with the future. Humans are so fantastically stupid.

272 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:19:09pm

Nobody mentions the fact that the air traffic controllers union came back stronger than ever as NATCA.

re: #37 wee fury

273 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:19:21pm

re: #269 webevintage

I met he can “edit” you some…

Rotating title candidate.

274 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:19:31pm

re: #254 Charles

Breitbart: “The mainstream media is trying to provoke Tea Partiers to violence.”

“There, you have your excuse. Now just remember to keep that violence to where I can film it.”

275 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:19:40pm

re: #240 Cineaste

To be precise, you’re misquoting me. I said that union leaderships’ incentives were often misaligned. First of all, Union leaders don’t “vote” against their members. But more importantly, just because your incentives are misaligned does not mean that you will act in concordance with those incentives. They are incentives, not rules.

Ok, seems like the intent of saying that incentives were misaligned is to suggest that the leaderships actions worked in contradiction to the interests of the membership. And yes, obviously the leaders don’t vote.

As for this, your logic is a bit hard for me to follow:

, just because your incentives are misaligned does not mean that you will act in concordance with those incentives.

I assume that your point is that it is possible for the leadership to act in the best interest of the members even if their incentives are “misaligned?”

Ok, I guess that’s true. But certainly you seemed to be suggesting that the leaders were not working in the best interests of the members. Otherwise, I’m really struggling to figure out your point. Was your point that union leaders are “often” so noble that they do what’s in the interest of their membership even when it isn’t in their own (the leadership’s) best interest?

276 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:19:54pm

I can feel my IQ dropping as he talks.

“Military veterans are the only people who deserve anything from the federal government.”

Good lord.

277 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:20:05pm

re: #270 Gus 802

And this asshole is talking about accountability? And he’s at a rally against unions?

Weird. These people are odd.

It’s cognitive dissonance. That’s about the only way the modern right can function.

278 ProTARDISLiberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:20:33pm

I’m really sorry to go off topic, but what is happening in Libya? The nation seems to be capsizing, with the Military fracturing, and Benghazi now in control of the opposition. News culled from Wikipedia.

279 Professor Chaos  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:20:33pm

re: #235 Charles

Breitbart: “America is going to be community organized no more.”

Excerpt from the Audubon Field Guide to Birds:

“The North American Wingnut lives in such perfect epistemic closure and has internalized the talking points that bounce around inside its habitat that it cannot even recognize the irony in what it says in public.”

At what level then shall we be organized, Mr. Breitbart? State? National? I think community is a pretty good level myself. Or are we not to be organized? Anarchy? Step outside of your stupid talking points and quick little right-wing laugh lines if you can.

280 reidr  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:20:40pm

re: #259 Gus 802

Now he’s rambling.

Is he laying across the podium?

281 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:20:59pm

re: #276 Charles

I can feel my IQ dropping as he talks.

“Military veterans are the only people who deserve anything from the federal government.”

Good lord.

If only the R’s were not constantly trying to figure out a way to screw them too.

282 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:21:06pm

re: #275 Talking Point Detective

Hell, the interests of a guy who’s been in the union five years are misaligned with those of a guy who’s been in it one year; the former will favor seniority.

The point of a union is to try to make fair deals for all workers, with everyone compromising on their interests.

Union leaders do, often, get corrupted, and turn basically into another layer of management. That’s what I meant when I said unions need unions. That point isn’t wrong; but it’s not a natural factor unions.

283 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:22:08pm

re: #37 wee fury

The Air Traffic Controllers strike.
[Link: eightiesclub.tripod.com…]
That worked real well for the Union.

The is one of the reasons I refuse to fawn over Ronald Reagan like others do.

284 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:22:36pm

All the speakers seem to be from out of state. I wonder if the audience is local of are they bused in?

285 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:23:22pm

re: #276 Charles

“Military veterans are the only people who deserve anything from the federal government.”

I feel dumber just reading that sentence.

I almost feel obligated to go listen to an audiobook or a TED podcast just to make up for the brain cells that died just now.

286 RadicalModerate  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:23:30pm

Wow, this “American Majority” guy is a freaking scumbag.

287 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:23:35pm

re: #284 Killgore Trout

All the speakers seem to be from out of state. I wonder if the audience is local of are they bused in?

They were bussed in. Someone at the rally mentioned it earlier.

288 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:23:37pm

re: #267 Cineaste

My point was solely that misaligned incentives can lead to poor results. Nothing more. I said repeatedly I’m not against unions but that doesn’t mean we can’t discuss the problems that unions have. I didn’t realize we could only discuss something if there was a perfect solution on the table.

I’d say that is no more or less true of unions than any other organization with leadership and members. You seem to be singling out unions as an imperfect type of organization. Given that no organizations are perfect, I don’t really get your point.

What would be significant is if you could actually show where union leaders tried to prevent a vote, and then when a later vote was held, it showed that because of misaligned incentives, the leaders were actually misrepresenting the interests of the members. But even then, I don’t see why unions would be particularly prone to that type of a problem.

289 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:23:58pm

re: #276 Charles

They made the short list of people to nominate to sainthood. The wingnuts love nothing better than to say “God bless the troops!” after making excuses why they’re so poorly equipped (“You go with the military you got!”) and come home in pieces. They can’t even decide if they’re still pro Bush’s war or against Obama’s war.

Somewhere, I see fireman and police waving their arms, “But what about us, asshole? Did you forget us?”

290 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:24:10pm

re: #286 RadicalModerate

Wow, this “American Majority” guy is a freaking scumbag.

“He blends.”

291 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:24:39pm

re: #287 Gus 802

They were bussed in. Someone at the rally mentioned it earlier.

That wouldn’t surprise me. Especially if it’s a relatively small crowd of a few hundred.

292 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:24:47pm

re: #276 Charles
Minnesota Crazy Lady disagrees.

293 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:25:35pm

re: #275 Talking Point Detective

I assume that your point is that it is possible for the leadership to act in the best interest of the members even if their incentives are “misaligned?”

Ok, I guess that’s true. But certainly you seemed to be suggesting that the leaders were not working in the best interests of the members. Otherwise, I’m really struggling to figure out your point. Was your point that union leaders are “often” so noble that they do what’s in the interest of their membership even when it isn’t in their own (the leadership’s) best interest?

I was merely pointing out one of the oddities of the system that can cause disfunction. I would say that I was suggesting that leaders may not work in the best interests of the members because of an incentives problem. I think, when looking at labor interactions it’s important to look at how everyone’s interests are aligned. If we can figure out better ways to align interests we can figure out better solutions. I never said I had the solution, I was just raising what I’ve long found to be an interesting conundrum. How to ensure that people are incentivized to work for long-term benefits when facing short-term risks. People on the thread seem to have read into what I said that I was condemning all unions or somehow anti-labor which is not the case.

294 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:25:59pm

re: #278 ProLifeLiberal

I’m really sorry to go off topic, but what is happening in Libya? The nation seems to be capsizing, with the Military fracturing, and Benghazi now in control of the opposition. News culled from Wikipedia.

It’s not that far off topic, and I wish I knew more. Last I heard was that some had started flying the pre-coup Libyan flag again.

295 reidr  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:26:01pm

re: #291 Killgore Trout

That wouldn’t surprise me. Especially if it’s a relatively small crowd of a few hundred.

Is there a Tea Party Extras Guild? A Tea Party Rapid Response Team, ready to fly at a moment’s notice?

296 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:26:07pm

re: #267 Cineaste

My point was solely that misaligned incentives can lead to poor results. Nothing more. I said repeatedly I’m not against unions but that doesn’t mean we can’t discuss the problems that unions have. I didn’t realize we could only discuss something if there was a perfect solution on the table.

You seem to be implying that unions are, by default, almost always built for misalignment of incentives. The reason people are taking exception to this is because you can only provide a few random examples. Your sparse evidence doesn’t not give much weight to your argument. Misalignment of incentives are a problem but not a major one. I’m not asking for a perfect solution. Just a better one. Can you provide that?

297 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:26:19pm

re: #260 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So, in other words, his natural state of being?

No, natural is slurring.

298 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:26:36pm

Carpetbaggers

299 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:27:26pm

re: #295 reidr

Is there a Tea Party Extras Guild? A Tea Party Rapid Response Team, ready to fly at a moment’s notice?

Air Assault Hover-rounds.

300 ProTARDISLiberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:27:47pm

re: #278 ProLifeLiberal

By the way, this shows the location of Benghazi in Libya

Image: File:Shabiat_Banghazi_since_2007.png

Tripoli’s location is shown below (roughly).

Image: File:Shabiat_Tripoli_since_2007.png

301 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:27:48pm

re: #254 Charles

Breitbart: “The mainstream media is trying to provoke Tea Partiers to violence.”

This is important because even if NO violence happens by tomorrow the story on FOX will be that violence was provoked or actually happened.
It will be like the “snowstorm street clearing union scandal” in NYC that in the end was all a lie from on city councilman but has now become a part of the myth of union thugs.
Or the guy in St. Louis who fell over his own feet during a pushing scuffle with some union folks and became the guy who was beat up by union thugs when he actually wasn’t BUT a local pastor was beat on by TEAGop types.

302 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:27:58pm

re: #257 Sergey Romanov

Basically what was punished is the voluntary act of sodomy (up to 5 years) or involuntary act of sodomy (up to 8 years). According to [Link: www.pseudology.org…] the initiator of the law was OGPU chief Genrikh Yagoda, who wrote to Stalin about a network of homosexual brothels and groups busted recently and warned that caste system of “pederasts” will likely be used for counter-revolutionary activity, and will try to get into the Army and the Navy. Stalin’s resolution was to punish those busted as well as to amend the law. Soon Politburo confirmed Yagoda’s proposal to introduce anti-sodomy law (with the exception of Kalinin, who was against amending but for extrajudicial measures).

(In the same article there is a mention of what is basically a precursor to the Pink Swastika - in 1934 Maksim Gor’ky wrote about the “connection” between homosexuality and fascism, noting that there is an (alleged) saying among people “Destroy homosexuality - and fascism will vanish!”.)

Ah, a Hitler connection!

303 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:28:33pm

It seems their only local speaker is some chick who called Limbaugh once.

304 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:28:37pm

re: #298 Gus 802

Carpetbaggers

Please… We real carpetbaggers hate to resort to litigation to protect our brand.

305 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:28:39pm

re: #295 reidr

Is there a Tea Party Extras Guild? A Tea Party Rapid Response Team, ready to fly at a moment’s notice?

Yes.
Funded by the Koch Brothers.

306 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:29:30pm

re: #280 reidr

Is he laying across the podium?

LOL

307 RadicalModerate  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:30:12pm

The Tea Party credo:

“First we came for the Socialists, and nobody spoke up against us, because everyone hates socialists”
“Then we came for the Trade Unionists, and nobody important spoke against us”

Any guesses where the next target will be?

308 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:31:02pm

re: #307 RadicalModerate
The middle class in its entirety.

309 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:31:21pm

re: #235 Charles

Breitbart: “America is going to be community organized no more.”

Weren’t the Founders “community organizers” of a sort?

/Why does Brietbart hate America?

310 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:31:37pm

re: #272 the west is the best

Nobody mentions the fact that the air traffic controllers union came back stronger than ever as NATCA.

Really? My pops was an Air Traffic controller for 32 years..List one thing that the union came out stronger after the strike..Besides they now pay them more and health care is better…You know the stress really hurts those professionals…

311 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:31:38pm

re: #294 wlewisiii

It’s not that far off topic, and I wish I knew more. Last I heard was that some had started flying the pre-coup Libyan flag again.

Following a lot on twitter (try it for news wlewisiii)

evanchill Evan Hill
by acarvin

Libyan source abroad: Protesters in Yafran have burned a building belonging to security forces. Army on the streets. #feb17

312 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:31:49pm

re: #293 Cineaste

I was merely pointing out one of the oddities of the system that can cause disfunction. I would say that I was suggesting that leaders may not work in the best interests of the members because of an incentives problem. I think, when looking at labor interactions it’s important to look at how everyone’s interests are aligned. If we can figure out better ways to align interests we can figure out better solutions. I never said I had the solution, I was just raising what I’ve long found to be an interesting conundrum. How to ensure that people are incentivized to work for long-term benefits when facing short-term risks. People on the thread seem to have read into what I said that I was condemning all unions or somehow anti-labor which is not the case.

I’ll take you at your word on that. I can’t speak for anyone else, but to me you seemed to be singling out unions for a conundrum that plagues, basically, all membership organizations.

I’m a huge believer in what can be accomplished by getting all the affected stakeholders at the table to see how interests can be aligned.

313 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:32:25pm

Malkin twittering that there are thousands at the Pro-Walker rally.

314 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:32:26pm

re: #295 reidr

Is there a Tea Party Extras Guild? A Tea Party Rapid Response Team, ready to fly at a moment’s notice?

Yup. American’s for Prosperity and Club for Growth.

315 ProTARDISLiberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:32:28pm

Also, it appears that Helicopters still loyal to Gaddafi were firing into funerals and protests. His government is only equalled in nastiness and brutality by Syria, who flattened their own city (Hama) in the 1980’s.

316 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:33:10pm

re: #297 Stanley Sea

No, natural is slurring.

I thought that was Pamz’ natural state…

317 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:33:16pm

re: #296 recusancy

You seem to be implying that unions are, by default, almost always built for misalignment of incentives. The reason people are taking exception to this is because you can only provide a few random examples. Your sparse evidence doesn’t not give much weight to your argument. Misalignment of incentives are a problem but not a major one. I’m not asking for a perfect solution. Just a better one. Can you provide that?

Sure, but I’m not saying they’re practical, but they may raise interesting points.

What if union leaders were paid their leadership salaries five years after their term as leader was completed. Absurd, absolutely. But at least they would have a very strong incentive to get the best deal possible for their members in the longer term.

What about saying that leadership have to be subject to the same conditions as the lowest ranked union members? In the case of teachers, that would mean layoffs would start with them.

In the case of some unions, like SAG or the WGA, you have a union simultaneously representing people who need collective bargaining power because they have no individual bargaining ability and people who have massive individual bargaining ability and the latter group contributes 95% of the union revenues. Maybe in those cases incentives could be better aligned such that if you can individually bargain for above-scale wages and benefits then you have to leave the union.

Again, these are all thought experiments. I’m not an expert on labor relations. I’m throwing out some food for thought.

318 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:33:19pm

re: #310 HoosierHoops
Better pay and better healthcare, for two. The stress of that position in unavoidable.

319 RadicalModerate  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:33:23pm

re: #313 Jadespring

Malkin twittering that there are thousands at the Pro-Walker rally.

Well, the “Americans for Prosperity” guy said it in his speech, so it must be true!

320 ProTARDISLiberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:33:31pm

re: #311 Stanley Sea

Considering what’s going on in Benghazi, did they say what side?

321 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:33:32pm

re: #313 Jadespring

Malkin twittering that there are thousands at the Pro-Walker rally.

That means hundreds, in the real world.

322 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:33:49pm

WTF? Sarah Palin? Todd Palin is in a union.

323 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:34:05pm

re: #312 Talking Point Detective

I’ll take you at your word on that. I can’t speak for anyone else, but to me you seemed to be singling out unions for a conundrum that plagues, basically, all membership organizations.

I’m a huge believer in what can be accomplished by getting all the affected stakeholders at the table to see how interests can be aligned.

Just point out:

That the topic of this thread seems to be a Union related topic, so any discussion would center around Unions. Including other organizations would and could take several threads.

Every organization as similar problems, each nuanced by the organization’s particular structure and function. I think that has been noted.

324 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:34:34pm

re: #322 Gus 802

WTF? Sarah Palin? Todd Palin is in a union.

But he’s in a Real American union, that doesn’t care if its collective bargaining rights are taken away. =P

325 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:34:50pm

re: #322 Gus 802

That’s why she can talk about her “union brothers and sisters”.

326 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:34:52pm

re: #311 Stanley Sea

Following a lot on twitter (try it for news wlewisiii)

evanchill Evan Hill
by acarvin

Libyan source abroad: Protesters in Yafran have burned a building belonging to security forces. Army on the streets. #feb17

I caught the news on the way home. They had a reporter who was doing what they could to monitor it and said they were getting reports of the sound of heavy fire. People were speculating that they sounded like mortars or artilery. Human rights watch is saying over 80 people have died so far in the protests.

327 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:35:15pm

re: #322 Gus 802

WTF? Sarah Palin? Todd Palin is in a union.

It’s the “for me, not for thee” and “fuck you, I’ve got mine” syndromes of the current TPGOP.

328 Cineaste  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:35:21pm

re: #321 Charles

That means hundreds, in the real world.

and includes police and bystanders who are wondering who the crazy people are…

329 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:35:28pm

re: #322 Gus 802

WTF? Sarah Palin? Todd Palin is in a union.

If it’s OCAW, it’s one of the best unions.

330 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:35:39pm

re: #313 Jadespring

Malkin twittering that there are thousands at the Pro-Walker rally.

That will become “several thousand” then “about ten thousand” then “tens of thousands” then “a hundred thousand” in no time. Beck will be reporting “millions” within a week.

Reality means nothing to these people.

331 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:35:41pm

re: #321 Charles

That means hundreds, in the real world.

That’s what I figured. :)

332 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:35:59pm

re: #278 ProLifeLiberal

I’m really sorry to go off topic, but what is happening in Libya? The nation seems to be capsizing, with the Military fracturing, and Benghazi now in control of the opposition. News culled from Wikipedia.

Here’s the BBC’s latest on Libya:
bbc.co.uk

333 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:36:08pm

re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist

It’s interesting. Quite short. I found it fascinating from the perspective of an American Jew who was raised on the myth of the wholesome shtetl that was like an American suburb, but with chickens and piety. You can find it online, I believe.

Look at the bible and the famous passage from Leviticus that says “Men shall not lay with another man as they do with a woman” and yet doesn’t mention how women shouldn’t lie with another woman as they do with a man…

See also, the many examples of biblical characters having multiple wives and concubines…. those women probably would have gotten a long a lot better if they were at least a 1 on the Kinsey Scale, no?

334 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:36:10pm

re: #330 Fozzie Bear

The current speaker already referred to 10,000.

335 Linden Arden  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:36:43pm

re: #42 Charles

People on Twitter are saying there are only about 300 Teabaggers in Wisconsin, and they’re screaming “homo” and “commie” at the protesters.

I’d like to see them yell the same things to the NFL Players Union when they have a go at solidarity.

336 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:36:50pm

re: #322 Gus 802

WTF? Sarah Palin? Todd Palin is in a union.

But is one of those “good” unions doncha’ know so it is ok.
Just like they get govt. health care for Todd and their kids because he’s got a wee bit of Eskimo in him so that’s OK too.

It is always OK for the Palins to do whatever it is that you should not do.

It is like folks who talk about pain and sacrifice in the budget but they mean pain and sacrifice for YOU and not them.

337 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:37:10pm

re: #327 talon_262

Practically every union worker or retiree I know subscribes to that idea. The only virtuous union is the one they either belonged to or retired with benefits from.

Mind numbing.

338 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:37:17pm

re: #322 Gus 802

WTF? Sarah Palin? Todd Palin is in a union.

He’s unemployed now. He quit too. So she’s in the clear. I guess.

339 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:37:46pm

Why is it that Sarah Palin speaking in person sounds nothing like Sarah Palin’s written word? Weird//

340 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:37:48pm

re: #334 calochortus

The current speaker already referred to 10,000.

Perhaps he was including all the people who are simply there out of morbid curiosity as to what craziness the TPers will say next.

341 ProTARDISLiberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:38:17pm

re: #332 wlewisiii

I hope the protesters win. Gaddafi is using mercenaries against his own people. He needs to be toppled.

GO LIBYANS GO!!

342 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:38:17pm

Rats on a sinking ship, fighting over scraps. That’s us.

On some level this is all really, really funny.

343 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:38:21pm

re: #318 the west is the best

Better pay and better healthcare, for two. The stress of that position in unavoidable.

I know..Pops always seemed stressed from the pressure…But feds can never strike.
when I was a kid his friends would come by and complain about the pressure and working conditions…
Now that I think about it..Your post is correct

344 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:38:33pm

re: #339 calochortus
Ghost writers?

345 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:38:46pm

re: #340 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Perhaps he’s innumerate.

346 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:39:01pm

I wish I could find a picture of the TeaParty crowd in WI.
anyone?

347 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:39:30pm

Sister Sarah is not there is she? She just facebooked from afar?

348 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:39:43pm

re: #344 the west is the best

Ya think?

349 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:40:06pm

re: #347 Stanley Sea

Sent an email or something.

350 theheat  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:40:07pm

re: #338 Stanley Sea

He’s free to ride his snowmobile and have wet dreams about secession while the wife and kids hustle for money. Also known as being the House Bitch. And it’s a great gig if you can get it.

351 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:40:11pm

Now, I have a massive headache.

Have a great afternoon all!

352 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:40:19pm

Koch Industries Slashed WI Jobs, Helped Elect Scott Walker, Now Orchestrating Pro-Walker Protest

Wisconsin’s newly elected Republican Gov. Scott Walker is facing a growing backlash over his attempt to cut pay and eliminate collective bargaining rights for public employees in his state. Although Walker is claiming his power grab is an attempt to close a budget gap, the budget “crisis” was engineered by Walker as soon as he got into office. As Brian Beutler reported, half of the budget shortfall comes from Walker’s own tax cuts for businesses and other business giveaways enacted in January…

353 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:40:38pm

Really sad interview with a woman from Libya on CNN right now. She is so emotional. Describing the military coming into a protesters camp and just started shooting people.
Saying please help us… :( Please help us.

354 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:40:44pm

re: #347 Stanley Sea

Sister Sarah is not there is she? She just facebooked from afar?

Yeah.
I guess they would not pay her enough to show up.

…and she is still thinking about running for office.

355 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:40:59pm

re: #341 ProLifeLiberal

I hope the protesters win. Gaddafi is using mercenaries against his own people. He needs to be toppled.

GO LIBYANS GO!!

From your lips to God’s ear, amen.

356 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:41:22pm

re: #343 HoosierHoops
I’ve run contracts in ATCC’s In my experience, as long as the controllers we’re manning the scopes correctly, they ran the entire facility. The union reps were more involved in contract decision making than the contracting officers.

357 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:41:49pm

No God? No religion in our schools?

358 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:42:01pm

The worst thing is that the whole world can watch protest and free speech? Really?

359 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:42:33pm

Fire teachers for speaking their personal views?

360 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:42:34pm

re: #357 Gus 802

No God? No religion in our schools?

As long as surprise exams exist, there will always be prayer in school.

361 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:42:42pm

re: #357 Gus 802

No God? No religion in our schools?

Imagine.

362 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:42:43pm

Holocaust? Germans?

363 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:43:02pm

Holocaust?
Que?

364 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:43:19pm

WFT is she talking about?

365 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:43:23pm

Where the hell is she going with this?

366 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:43:28pm

re: #352 Gus 802

I’m leery about the whole ‘created the crisis’ thing. Politifact is calling that a lie, and their numbers appear to add up. I do think that it doesn’t matter what the deficit is; this is unionbusting, not a serious attempt to reduce governmental costs.

367 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:43:36pm

Describes that military came and were telling people that ‘we are with you’ ‘we stand with you’ then got in amongst people and started yelling and shooting.

Says she’s afraid. “Please help us. I am afraid. ” Says over 60 people were killed.

368 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:44:01pm

Ah, she’s outraged over Hitler comparisons.

369 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:44:30pm

Only the Right gets to employ hyperbole. Don’t you know that?

370 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:44:35pm

Oh brother. It was all about them drawing a Hitler mustache on Gov. Hosni Walker.

371 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:45:13pm

You know who else was outraged over Hitler comparisons?

372 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:45:15pm

She’s fairly incoherent, isn’t she? Even for someone not used to public speaking she’s having trouble reading this stuff off.

373 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:45:19pm

This is embarrassing. Get this chick off the stage.

374 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:45:24pm

gfry Gilles Frydman
by acarvin

@acarvin A picture w. large # of demonstrators in Benghazi #libya ayman.iyobo.com

375 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:45:32pm

Oh dear God. This is heartbreaking….

Fuck.

Fuck

Fuck

376 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:46:20pm

Train wreck!

377 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:46:42pm

So on Twitter the local Koch Brother mouthpiece said this picture is of the 10,000 “real americans” who showed up to support walker:

twitpic.com

why do I have a feeling that there are maybe 500 teaparty folks surrounded by union supporters?

378 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:46:55pm

re: #375 Jadespring

Is it online, Jade, or are you watching it on TV?

379 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:47:24pm

re: #376 Gus 802

Train wreck!

Yeah, watching them speak is much like watching one: You know you should turn away, but you can’t.

380 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:47:31pm

You’re supposed to close with your best comedian. In this case they should have closed with Breitbart.

Strange people.

381 Professor Chaos  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:47:45pm

Now now, let’s take her at her word….there’s thousands of Teabaggers there counter-protesting. They just look tiny next to the hundreds of thousands of pro-union people there.

We can all multiply by ten, Michelle.

382 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:47:49pm

re: #368 Killgore Trout

Ah, she’s outraged over Hitler comparisons.

You know who got rid of the unions when he came into power right?

383 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:48:01pm

Now they’re complaining about crowd size reports.

384 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:48:03pm

re: #377 webevintage
Talk about useful idiots.

385 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:48:20pm

re: #377 webevintage

So on Twitter the local Koch Brother mouthpiece said this picture is of the 10,000 “real americans” who showed up to support walker:

[Link: twitpic.com…]

why do I have a feeling that there are maybe 500 teaparty folks surrounded by union supporters?

Uh because there are quite obviously cops in that picture standing in a line between the two crowds.

386 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:48:24pm

re: #377 webevintage

So on Twitter the local Koch Brother mouthpiece said this picture is of the 10,000 “real americans” who showed up to support walker:

[Link: twitpic.com…]

why do I have a feeling that there are maybe 500 teaparty folks surrounded by union supporters?

The red clothing can be safely assumed to be union supporters, so most of the crowd is NOT pro-Walker. Look at the red hats.

387 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:49:31pm

re: #375 Jadespring

I was busy for a couple of hours, come back and click “new comments (206)” and scan ‘em quickly, and I must say it’s surreal to see the comments about Libya and Wisconsin intertwined.

388 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:51:04pm

re: #373 Killgore Trout

This is embarrassing. Get this chick off the stage.

Where are you watching this?

389 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:51:54pm

re: #388 Fozzie Bear
That’s Entertainment!

390 Eclectic Cyborg  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:52:19pm

Fox was referring to the Wisconsin bill as an austerity measure. Anyone know if other media outlets have called it the same thing?

391 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:52:21pm

Governor Walker wasn’t responsible for the handicapped man’s condition-just for his future institutionalization if Walker cut funds for care.

393 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:52:40pm

Hey everybody, it’s Saturday. Many of you have the day off. Every single one of you who isn’t working can thank unions for that fact.

Just saying.

394 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:54:00pm

re: #392 Killgore Trout

oh god that kid in the Packer’s hat.

Poor guy.

395 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:54:18pm

“Stay the course until everyone pays their fair share” Umm, except for corporations?

396 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:55:15pm

re: #393 Fozzie Bear

Hey everybody, it’s Saturday. Many of you have the day off. Every single one of you who isn’t working can thank unions for that fact.

Just saying.

Sign at rally attached to cab

“Unions, the people that brought you the weekend”

397 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:55:31pm

“Thank you Scott!!”

*vomit*

398 Winny Spencer  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:55:42pm

Scott Walker 2012?

399 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:55:55pm

I hear the TPers do one of their little brain-dead chants and can’t help but hear them chanting “Imhotep” like in The Mummy.

400 jaunte  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:56:07pm

tweet:
RT @cbn2: Wisconsin Bill 11 *requires* workers w families pay $567 PER MONTH for insurance, without any opt out. TCOT sees no prob w this?

401 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:56:12pm

re: #398 Winny Spencer

Walker/Palin !!!11!!1

402 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:56:32pm

re: #398 Winny Spencer

Scott Walker 2012?

He’ll be available.

403 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:56:38pm

re: #398 Winny Spencer

Scott Walker 2012?

Hmm. he might just be crazy enough to win the nomination. Maybe. He’d need to hate on Mexicans and black people a little more openly, then he might have a shot.

404 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:56:46pm

“New class of voters”? No, just the old class with a new coat of paint.

405 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:57:56pm

re: #404 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

We pride ourselves on educating ourselves, learning the facts, and informing others!”*

*when the facts happen to be in our favor and do not conflict with our worldview.

406 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:57:59pm

Paging Glenn Beck: move letters in Sarah Palin’s name around and you get “Sharia Plan”. COINCIDENCE?

407 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:58:11pm

re: #398 Winny Spencer

Scott Walker 2012?

I’ve been wondering in recent days if Walker’s trying to set himself up, if not for a Pres run, then for the VP nod.

408 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:58:42pm

LOL there is no way that is 10,000 people, lady.

409 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:58:52pm

re: #406 Sergey Romanov

Paging Glenn Beck: move letters in Sarah Palin’s name around and you get “Sharia Plan”. COINCIDENCE?

To the chalkboards!

410 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:59:17pm

Where are the camels?

//

411 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:59:23pm

Wave your hands in the air like you just don’t care!

412 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:59:39pm

Heh. “There’s 10,000 of you.”

Sure. Turn the camera around and show us.

413 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:00:11pm

re: #411 Killgore Trout
Word up!

414 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:00:16pm

“You’re dismissed”

A moment of truth leaking through. lol.

415 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:00:29pm

channel3000.com

Here’s a slideshow of view submitted photos of the protests. Not sure if from today or yesterday. But they are good.

416 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:00:34pm

You’re dismissed? OK, I’ll be happy to dismiss what they said too.

417 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:00:42pm

“Remember the count: 10,000.”

Yes, remember to repeat the lie enough time and the media will buy it!

418 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:00:47pm

Drunk asshole grabs the mic.

419 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:01:17pm

re: #418 Gus 802

“I know, it stunks!”

420 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:01:52pm

re: #418 Gus 802

Drunk asshole grabs the mic.

Be more specific. Breitbart?

421 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:02:15pm

re: #412 Obdicut

They did actually do a limited pan earlier-now it was from ground level and there could have been a lot of short people without signs, but it looked to be maybe a dozen people deep at that spot.

422 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:02:15pm

LOL the feed just stops once the TP rally is over. Very telling.

423 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:02:51pm

It’s over!

The one weirdo lady stumbled through her words and said something about “the Holocaust” where “the Nazis killed 6 million Germans”.

424 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:02:54pm

Well, that was fun. Anybody needs me, I’ll be over in the corner, trying to expunge that viewing pleasure with a bottle of brain bleach.

425 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:03:31pm

re: #423 Gus 802

It’s over!

The one weirdo lady stumbled through her words and said something about “the Holocaust” where “the Nazis killed 6 million Germans”.

Palin?

426 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:03:52pm

CircleReader Andrew Wetzel
(thanks webevintage)

Official observer est. 3500 pro-Walker RT @bluecheddar1 60,000 people seems to be going # estimated for today’s #wiunion Madison rally YEAH!

427 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:04:01pm

re: #425 Sergey Romanov

Palin?

Nah. Some lady that took to the podium.

428 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:04:40pm

re: #424 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I suggest strong ale or scotch, depending on your time zone.

429 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:05:16pm

re: #426 Stanley Sea

CircleReader Andrew Wetzel
(thanks webevintage)

Official observer est. 3500 pro-Walker RT @bluecheddar1 60,000 people seems to be going # estimated for today’s #wiunion Madison rally YEAH!

17:1

lol

430 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:05:46pm

re: #427 Gus 802

Nah. Some lady that took to the podium.

Must’ve been that crazy McCain lady…

431 jaunte  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:05:51pm

Dana Goldstein:


The Wisconsin Labor Fight: An Attack on Women, Too
The Wisconsin GOP’s war on public sector unions—except those representing police officers, firefighters, and state troopers—is not only a craven attack on the Democratic base, but sexist, too, since predominantly male professions are deliberately protected while female ones are targeted.

About 80 percent of American teachers, for example, are female; at the elementary school level, nearly 90 percent are women. Nursing is 95 percent female

432 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:06:52pm

So children, what did we take away from that insightful video? That Obama is very, very bad, that Scott Walker is a new Tea Party saint, that unions are evil, and…most importantly…Tea Partiers can’t count worth a damn.

433 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:07:04pm

re: #431 jaunte

Dana Goldstein:

I really don’t think this is about sexism. This is about political payback. The teachers’ union didn’t back Walker, so he went after them.

434 Winny Spencer  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:07:50pm

It’s a brave new tea party world out there.

435 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:10:25pm

re: #420 Decatur Deb

Be more specific. Breitbart?

Nah. I think it was one of the crew. He seemed drunk. Maybe not. He was complaining about a booth the unions set up nearby so their members can get a doctors slip for the days they took off last week.

436 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:10:46pm

It’s almost like the right wants to radicalize the left, and feed it membership.

When the pendulum swing back again, it isn’t going to be pretty,

437 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:11:07pm

Anyone else notice that women often have been paid according to what they “need” and men are paid what their work is “worth”? Its not universal, but the philosophy lingers.

Elementary school teachers in 1970 were frequently assumed to be young single women living with their parents, or perhaps an older married woman who therefore didn’t need enough money to be able to pay rent. I recall hospitals a couple decades ago trying to solve the nursing shortage with all sorts of incentives that didn’t involve paying more.

438 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:11:39pm

You kiddn’ me? It will be GLORIOUIS.re: #436 Fozzie Bear

439 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:11:57pm

From a sign @ that slideshow I posted

“The enemies of labor unions are the enemies of progress” - JFK

440 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:12:12pm

re: #433 Fozzie Bear

I really don’t think this is about sexism. This is about political payback. The teachers’ union didn’t back Walker, so he went after them.

Even if not “about” sexism, it comes out that way. Perhaps it goes back to the sexism of not valuing the professions that are predominantly occupied by women.

441 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:12:41pm

re: #437 calochortus

Anyone else notice that women often have been paid according to what they “need” and men are paid what their work is “worth”? Its not universal, but the philosophy lingers.

Elementary school teachers in 1970 were frequently assumed to be young single women living with their parents, or perhaps an older married woman who therefore didn’t need enough money to be able to pay rent. I recall hospitals a couple decades ago trying to solve the nursing shortage with all sorts of incentives that didn’t involve paying more.

Until the 70s, RNs were exempt from minimum-wage protections, falling under the classification “Domestic Servants”.

442 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:13:06pm

re: #438 the west is the best

You kiddn’ me? It will be GLORIOUIS.

I’ll enjoy the schadenfreude, for sure. But two crazies do not a sane person make.

443 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:13:34pm

re: #441 Decatur Deb

Until the 70s, RNs were exempt from minimum-wage protections, falling under the classification “Domestic Servants”.

Unbelievable, except that I totally believe it.

444 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:13:40pm

re: #423 Gus 802

It’s over!

The one weirdo lady stumbled through her words and said something about “the Holocaust” where “the Nazis killed 6 million Germans”.

Leaving technicalities out of it, (I mean, I suppose you could blame the Nazis for all German deaths during the war, although that’s not normally classified as part of the Holocaust), what exactly was the connection supposed to be there?

445 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:14:33pm

re: #443 wrenchwench

Unbelievable, except that I totally believe it.

Mrs Deb, RN says so.

446 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:14:38pm

re: #444 SanFranciscoZionist

Leaving technicalities out of it, (I mean, I suppose you could blame the Nazis for all German deaths during the war, although that’s not normally classified as part of the Holocaust), what exactly was the connection supposed to be there?

BLARG

LIBERALS BAD NAZI. WALKER POOR JEW.

HERP DERP

447 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:14:49pm

re: #437 calochortus

Anyone else notice that women often have been paid according to what they “need” and men are paid what their work is “worth”? Its not universal, but the philosophy lingers.

Elementary school teachers in 1970 were frequently assumed to be young single women living with their parents, or perhaps an older married woman who therefore didn’t need enough money to be able to pay rent. I recall hospitals a couple decades ago trying to solve the nursing shortage with all sorts of incentives that didn’t involve paying more.

Yes, seen in my corporate job. Guy hired after me, did 1/2 the stuff I did, made 45% more, because “he had a family to support”

Yes, I’m still bitter.

448 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:15:37pm

re: #444 SanFranciscoZionist

Leaving technicalities out of it, (I mean, I suppose you could blame the Nazis for all German deaths during the war, although that’s not normally classified as part of the Holocaust), what exactly was the connection supposed to be there?

I think she was upset that walking was compared to Hitler on one sign:
(Hitler got rid of the unions too! or something like that) so she was proving he was in noway like Hitler because he hadn’t killed a bunch of Germans yet….I think?

449 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:15:41pm

re: #444 SanFranciscoZionist

Leaving technicalities out of it, (I mean, I suppose you could blame the Nazis for all German deaths during the war, although that’s not normally classified as part of the Holocaust), what exactly was the connection supposed to be there?

Right. Typically it’s not described as “when Hitler murdered 6 million Germans” but instead Jews. Oh. It was some short history lesson leading up to the castigation of those the portrayed Scott Walker as Hitler. Sort of a long and stumbling way of saying the pro-union protesters pull a Godwin.

450 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:15:57pm

re: #444 SanFranciscoZionist

She had 2 points 1.) she had access to Wikipedia for statistics in case the assembled multitudes missed the Holocaust. and 2.) Someone had a sign with a Hitler mustache on a picture of Walker, which was so much more shocking than doing the same with an Obama picture.

451 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:16:12pm

re: #447 Stanley Sea

Yes, seen in my corporate job. Guy hired after me, did 1/2 the stuff I did, made 45% more, because “he had a family to support”

Yes, I’m still bitter.

FUCK THAT

Seriously, that shit pisses me off. (You had, and perhaps have, a solid discrimination suit, btw)

452 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:16:46pm

My typing isn’t very good there.

453 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:16:49pm

re: #442 Fozzie Bear
I’m looking forward to an upsurge in union membership, far left crazyness not so much.

Athough seven years ago I thought Amy Goodman, code pinks, etc. were nuts. Looking back, they wern’t as wrong as I thought then.

454 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:18:11pm

re: #451 Fozzie Bear

FUCK THAT

Seriously, that shit pisses me off. (You had, and perhaps have, a solid discrimination suit, btw)

Yeah I probably did. It was total bullshit. I’ve been long gone from that place though.

455 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:18:56pm

Where’s Varek?

plcorbett Patrick L. Corbett

Imperial Walker Star Wars theme FTW - ow.ly #WIunion #wisolidarity #StarWarsGeek

456 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:19:37pm

EANewsFeed EA WorldView

#IranElection: Soundtrack of tonight’s Allah Akbars from rooftops tinyurl.com #1Esfand #Iran

457 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:19:41pm

re: #448 webevintage

I think she was upset that walking was compared to Hitler on one sign:
(Hitler got rid of the unions too! or something like that) so she was proving he was in noway like Hitler because he hadn’t killed a bunch of Germans yet…I think?

Give him time.

//It’s reasonable to point out that although Walker is being an asshole, he is not, in fact, Hitler. It would be hoped that a person could do that in a coherent manner.

458 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:19:43pm

re: #453 the west is the best

Code Pink was and is still nuts.

Amy Goodman is wrong about Israel but a very brave journalist who’s done a lot of good.

459 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:20:03pm

re: #445 Decatur Deb

Mrs Deb, RN says so.

The past SUCKED!

In the 70’s, I was trying to get into wood shop and metal shop, and drafting and graphic arts classes in jr. high and high school. I still haven’t figured out why graphic arts was for boys only.

460 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:20:22pm

Obama Administration Revises ‘Conscience Clause’ Rules: Contraception No Longer Considered Abortion

WASHINGTON — (AP) The government has replaced a Bush-era rule that became a flash point in the debate over abortions, clarifying that doctors and nurses have a long-standing federal right not to participate in the procedures.

Federal laws for years have forbidden discrimination against health care professionals who refuse to perform abortions or sterilizations, or to provide referrals for them on religious or moral grounds.

The regulation, instituted in the last days of the Bush administration, was supposed to strengthen those protections by adding a requirement that institutions that receive federal money certify their compliance with the so-called conscience laws, so that money could be cut off if the law wasn’t being followed.

That regulation was quickly challenged in federal court by several states and medical organizations, in part over concern that its overly broad wording also could be used to refuse birth control, family planning services and a variety of other services.

Continues…

461 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:20:32pm

re: #450 calochortus

She had 2 points 1.) she had access to Wikipedia for statistics in case the assembled multitudes missed the Holocaust. and 2.) Someone had a sign with a Hitler mustache on a picture of Walker, which was so much more shocking than doing the same with an Obama picture.

It may not be shocking, but it’s still stupid. We need to stop Godwinning every damn thing that comes down the pike.

462 Virginia Plain  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:20:42pm

re: #453 the west is the best

I’m looking forward to an upsurge in union membership, far left crazyness not so much.

Athough seven years ago I thought Amy Goodman, code pinks, etc. were nuts. Looking back, they wern’t as wrong as I thought then.

The Left will never be as bad as the Right, even in staunchly liberal areas like Berzerkely. They don’t have guns or a whole bully pulpit network behind them. MSNBC is just not as strong as Fix news.

463 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:21:05pm

re: #453 the west is the best

I’m looking forward to an upsurge in union membership, far left crazyness not so much.

Athough seven years ago I thought Amy Goodman, code pinks, etc. were nuts. Looking back, they wern’t as wrong as I thought then.

Code Pink are, in fact, nuts.

Amy Goodman, I think, is probably sane.

464 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:21:17pm

re: #459 wrenchwench

The past SUCKED!

In the 70’s, I was trying to get into wood shop and metal shop, and drafting and graphic arts classes in jr. high and high school. I still haven’t figured out why graphic arts was for boys only.

It prepared one for a good job?

465 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:22:04pm

Here’s a shot from above at the height of the Tea Party…
Tea party rally
Youtube Video

You can barely see the stage off to the far left. The people around the edges are pro-union marchers. Looks like maybe 500 or so.

466 webevintage  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:22:22pm

re: #459 wrenchwench

The past SUCKED!

In the 70’s, I was trying to get into wood shop and metal shop, and drafting and graphic arts classes in jr. high and high school. I still haven’t figured out why graphic arts was for boys only.

Because you would just end up getting married anyway so why waste a perfectly good graphic arts class on you.
/

467 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:22:56pm

re: #465 Killgore Trout

Here’s a shot from above at the height of the Tea Party…
Tea party rally

[Video]You can barely see the stage off to the far left. The people around the edges are pro-union marchers. Looks like maybe 500 or so.

I’m getting a blank screen there.

468 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:23:01pm

re: #465 Killgore Trout

No pixels.

469 Virginia Plain  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:23:13pm

re: #441 Decatur Deb

Until the 70s, RNs were exempt from minimum-wage protections, falling under the classification “Domestic Servants”.

What the f***?! At least now there are many more protections for RNs. Far from perfect, but I can’t imagine getting paid what a CNA gets paid now for back-breaking, life-in-your-hands work.

470 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:23:39pm

re: #467 Gus 802

I’m getting a blank screen there.

Hmmmm let’s try that again…
Youtube Video

471 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:23:44pm

re: #465 Killgore Trout

It’s photoshopped. I can tell by the lack of pixels. /

472 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:23:59pm

Gah, the teabaggers!

ryan_rainey Ryan Rainey

Drum and fife corps? #wiunion #teaparty yfrog.com

473 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:24:15pm

re: #470 Killgore Trout

Hmmm let’s try that again…

[Video]

Same thing. D’oh!

474 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:24:25pm

re: #462 Virginia Plain
Looking at what’s happened in this country in the past 7-8 years or so, they have a strong case in saying “Told you so!”

475 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:24:27pm

huh, It works in preview,
Here’s a direct link: Tea Party

476 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:24:35pm

re: #470 Killgore Trout

Still blank. :(

477 Winny Spencer  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:24:35pm

re: #458 Obdicut

Code Pink was and is still nuts.

Amy Goodman is wrong about Israel but a very brave journalist who’s done a lot of good.

I refrained from writing the bolded part for fear of downdings.

478 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:25:35pm

re: #466 webevintage

Because you would just end up getting married anyway so why waste a perfectly good graphic arts class on you.
/

In the 80s, in San Francisco public schools, we were all treated absolutely equally in terms of our electives, and they were all essentially useless.

479 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:25:40pm

re: #477 Winny Spencer

I refrained from writing the bolded part for fear of downdings.

Why? Nobody has ever gotten a downding at LGF for saying Code Pink is nuts.

480 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:25:41pm

MusicEdTech Barbara Freedman

RT @TeacherReality: Full text of teacher letter to Obama: dianeravitch.com Make it go viral! #wiunion #edchat

481 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:25:54pm

re: #469 Virginia Plain

What the f***?! At least now there are many more protections for RNs. Far from perfect, but I can’t imagine getting paid what a CNA gets paid now for back-breaking, life-in-your-hands work.

Technology-driven education made the difference. In the 1950’s, teaching hospitals ran convent-like dormitories for their nursing students. Nurses were expected to shut up and stand up when a doctor entered a room.

482 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:26:13pm

Testing…

Youtube Video

483 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:26:21pm

re: #477 Winny Spencer

I refrained from writing the bolded part for fear of downdings.

You must be nuts.

//

484 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:26:44pm

re: #477 Winny Spencer

I refrained from writing the bolded part for fear of downdings.

Aw, don’t hold back.

Code Pink is freaking bananas.

There are some things I agree with them about—I also like sparkly tiaras—but they’re batshit crazy.

485 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:26:55pm

Ooh, I see a freshly baked troll has hatched.

486 Winny Spencer  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:26:58pm

re: #479 Obdicut

Why? Nobody has ever gotten a downding at LGF for saying Code Pink is nuts.

Well, you know things change quickly sometimes. But never mind!

487 Virginia Plain  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:27:08pm

re: #478 SanFranciscoZionist

In the 80s, in San Francisco public schools, we were all treated absolutely equally in terms of our electives, and they were all essentially useless.

Yeah, electives are still useless, though I still wish I had taken the CNA elective class in high school. Only because I could have more experience under my belt. Instead, I was assigned to a food prep elective.

488 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:27:09pm

Speaking of protests, I live a few miles from where Obama had dinner with the techie A List folks the other night. Naturally there was a little piece on the news about it, and it included a few folks who had turned out with some signs protesting our local utility’s decision to install “smart meters”. There is a very slight tie in with the evening’s host, but it got me to wondering-if there is no overriding protest topic (GWB and the Iraq War for example) do these local sorts of protesters turn out everywhere the president goes? Does the Secret Service have a drinking game involving who can figure out what the heck the protest is about?

489 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:27:12pm

re: #485 Sergey Romanov

Ooh, I see a freshly baked troll has hatched.

trollratemeimtryingtosetarecord
Registered since: Feb 19, 2011 at 1:25 pm
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of Pages posted: 0

490 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:27:21pm

re: #480 Stanley Sea

MusicEdTech Barbara Freedman

RT @TeacherReality: Full text of teacher letter to Obama: [Link: dianeravitch.com…] Make it go viral! #wiunion #edchat

Oops, bad link. can’t find the dang letter.

491 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:27:31pm

re: #477 Winny Spencer
Their theatrics are more than annoying, but I’m more willing to consider their positions these days.

492 Virginia Plain  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:27:41pm

re: #486 Winny Spencer

Well, you know things change quickly sometimes. But never mind!

Umm, I think everyone agrees that Code Pink is too far-out.

493 jaunte  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:27:45pm

re: #489 Gus 802

ignoretheoneswhoaretryingtosetarecord

494 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:28:28pm

re: #493 jaunte

If he comments, everyone should tell him that he’s adorable.

495 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:28:38pm

re: #479 Obdicut

Why? Nobody has ever gotten a downding at LGF for saying Code Pink is nuts.

People get downdinged for some rather weird stuff in this world—I was once downdinged for saying that Arab culture had a soppy romantic streak.

But in general, this is a pretty safe place to rag on Code Pink.

496 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:29:08pm

re: #491 the west is the best

Their theatrics are more than annoying, but I’m more willing to consider their positions these days.

Code Pink is just not an “actor”, if you know what I mean. There are far more (relatively) deserving people to consider.

497 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:29:47pm

re: #475 Killgore Trout

re: #488 calochortus

Speaking of protests, I live a few miles from where Obama had dinner with the techie A List folks the other night. Naturally there was a little piece on the news about it, and it included a few folks who had turned out with some signs protesting our local utility’s decision to install “smart meters”. There is a very slight tie in with the evening’s host, but it got me to wondering-if there is no overriding protest topic (GWB and the Iraq War for example) do these local sorts of protesters turn out everywhere the president goes? Does the Secret Service have a drinking game involving who can figure out what the heck the protest is about?

The secret service doesn’t drink. They just shoot each other in the balls for fun on their downtime. They also wrestle bears.

(No seriously, I have known a couple of Secret Service guys, and they are a ridiculously tough group.)

498 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:29:49pm

Varek!

Even better!!

plixi.com

499 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:30:19pm

re: #487 Virginia Plain

Yeah, electives are still useless, though I still wish I had taken the CNA elective class in high school. Only because I could have more experience under my belt. Instead, I was assigned to a food prep elective.

I took sewing, ‘cooking’—we didn’t really cook anything, mechanical drafting, woodshop and typing. We got rotated, so it wasn’t as though you could really learn much, and none of it had courses attached to it in high school.

500 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:30:23pm

re: #497 Fozzie Bear

not sure why i tagged KT on that post.

501 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:31:11pm

News3David David Douglas
by WisconsinRising

Madison Police say “zero arrests” and “we’re very pleased with how everyone is exercising democracy” #wiunion

502 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:32:32pm

My husband just wandered through the living room, stared out the window, and commented, “Day six of forty.”

503 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:32:41pm

re: #498 Stanley Sea

Varek!

Even better!!

[Link: plixi.com…]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

504 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:32:51pm

re: #501 Stanley Sea

News3David David Douglas
by WisconsinRising

Madison Police say “zero arrests” and “we’re very pleased with how everyone is exercising democracy” #wiunion

Good to hear.

505 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:33:22pm

re: #502 SanFranciscoZionist

My husband just wandered through the living room, stared out the window, and commented, “Day six of forty.”

How cryptic. Is it raining or something?

506 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:34:08pm

re: #496 Sergey Romanov
True, but their views deserve consideration prior to dismissal rather than outright dismissal.

507 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:34:45pm

chanadbh Chan’ad Bahraini
by acarvin

amazing.. #Bahrain woman faces riot police alone #lulu #Feb14 plixi.com

(twitter is god)

508 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:35:09pm

re: #502 SanFranciscoZionist

My husband just wandered through the living room, stared out the window, and commented, “Day six of forty.”

I was going to walk down to the store to get some fish for tonight’s dinner, but at 41 degrees and steady rain, a 2+ mile stroll is not on my agenda. It will have to be the car.

509 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:35:11pm

re: #485 Sergey Romanov

Ooh, I see a freshly baked troll has hatched.

If they’re coming pre-baked now, Dark_Falcon and his grill will be unemployed. Maybe he can do sauces.

510 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:35:11pm

I don’t know what everyone here problem is. Code Pink is awesome! Quit dissin the Pink!

511 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:35:13pm

re: #506 the west is the best

True, but their views deserve consideration prior to dismissal rather than outright dismissal.

They bought some instant cred by getting their people into Tahrir Square.

512 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:35:37pm

re: #482 Gus 802

Testing…


[Video]

Huh, I wonder what I has doing wrong.

513 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:35:41pm

re: #506 the west is the best

True, but their views deserve consideration prior to dismissal rather than outright dismissal.

Well, those of their views that are not crazy are simply independent of them. I mean, just because Commies accepted evolution doesn’t mean we should consider it “their” views.

514 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:36:01pm

re: #510 Jadespring

I don’t know what everyone here problem is. Code Pink is awesome! Quit dissin the Pink!

If nothing else they are harmless. I don’t see code pink getting violent any time soon.

515 jaunte  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:36:11pm

Rick Ungar at Forbes:
Koch Brothers Behind Wisconsin Effort To Kill Public Unions

UPDATE: The Americans for Prosperity group, a Tea Party group that is a Koch Brothers front, has put up a website and petition called standwithwalker.com. The website attacks all collective bargaining – not just for public employees’ unions.
516 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:36:31pm

re: #512 Killgore Trout

Huh, I wonder what I has doing wrong.

Might have been something from the link in the URL field of your browser? I used the link from the “share” field.

517 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:36:57pm

You aren’t caught until you’ve had a cat sleeping on your chest while you try to type.

518 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:37:14pm

re: #510 Jadespring

I don’t know what everyone here problem is. Code Pink is awesome! Quit dissin the Pink!

AND LEAVE CODE PINK ALONE SNIFF SNIFF!

//

519 calochortus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:37:58pm

re: #505 Fozzie Bear

Yes.

520 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:38:34pm

re: #515 jaunte

Rick Ungar at Forbes:
Koch Brothers Behind Wisconsin Effort To Kill Public Unions

If you remember the very first TP town hall actions, it’s obvious that the SEIU and other unions have been at the top of their astroturefd target list from the beginning.

521 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:39:40pm

re: #505 Fozzie Bear

How cryptic. Is it raining or something?

Buckets. For days now.

522 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:39:52pm

re: #518 Sergey Romanov

AND LEAVE CODE PINK ALONE SNIFF SNIFF!

//

What do I have to do to prove I was serious with that comment! Yeesh….

Okay….can’t do it…. :)

523 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:40:31pm

re: #521 SanFranciscoZionist

Buckets. For days now.

The story about your husband and the zombie egg drama has made me a fan of the man.

braaaaains

524 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:40:39pm

re: #505 Fozzie Bear

How cryptic. Is it raining or something?

Earlier this week, the hail was so loud we had to crank up the TV to full blast so we could hear NCIS.

525 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:41:17pm

Strange posting on a dead thread below. Radar engaged.

526 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:41:34pm

re: #489 Gus 802

trollratemeimtryingtosetarecord
Registered since: Feb 19, 2011 at 1:25 pm
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of Pages posted: 0

Obvious troll is obvious…

527 Professor Chaos  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:42:55pm

re: #515 jaunte

Rick Ungar at Forbes:
Koch Brothers Behind Wisconsin Effort To Kill Public Unions

I love Ungar’s response in the comments to someone attacking the piece for quoting Mother Jones and ThinkProgress:

Not so big on the whole free speech, explore all sides thing, are you?

Now – while its fun and all to take some shots at these sources, let’s get real-

Do you dispute the facts? And if you do, feel free to provide any authority you like.

Notice that there is no opinion in the sections that are provided by those publications. So, let me ask that one more time because I know you are objectivity challenged- Do…you…dispute…the…facts?

If you cannot dispute the facts then the best you’ve got is to make fun of publications you don’t like?

Big yawn.

528 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:43:05pm

re: #525 Gus 802

Strange posting on a dead thread below. Radar engaged.

re: #526 talon_262

Obvious troll is obvious…

Propose a Cordon Sanitaire.

529 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:43:35pm

re: #525 Gus 802

Strange posting on a dead thread below. Radar engaged.

I think relentless syrupy positivity is the way to go with this one.

530 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:44:17pm

re: #529 Fozzie Bear

I think relentless syrupy positivity is the way to go with this one.

Better be quick, it’s already blocked.

531 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:44:18pm

re: #529 Fozzie Bear

I think relentless syrupy positivity is the way to go with this one.

Is that like saying “good morning everybuggy!”

/

532 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:44:24pm

re: #527 Girth

I love Ungar’s response in the comments to someone attacking the piece for quoting Mother Jones and ThinkProgress:

That’s a keeper. People always attack the source, but never the facts.

533 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:44:38pm

re: #528 Decatur Deb

re: #526 talon_262

Propose a Cordon Sanitaire.

Just kill the damn thing with fire…

534 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:44:49pm

re: #530 wrenchwench

Better be quick, it’s already blocked.

Was that a record?

535 jaunte  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:45:26pm

re: #529 Fozzie Bear

Love-bombing from orbit, to be sure.

536 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:46:01pm

re: #534 Decatur Deb

Was that a record?

I’m hoping not.

537 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:46:07pm

re: #530 wrenchwench

Better be quick, it’s already blocked.

Yep. Too late. Wonder what that was about. I mean the name itself was suspicious including the first post.

538 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:46:14pm

Damnit, not nearly enough time to share my love with out newest friend. :(

539 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:46:52pm

plcorbett Patrick L. Corbett
@
My working conditions are your children’s learning conditions! #wiunion @WEAC plixi.com RT

540 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:46:54pm

re: #538 Fozzie Bear

Damnit, not nearly enough time to share my love with out newest friend. :(

You have learned much from Alfie. GROOM THAT MOUSE!!!

541 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:47:19pm

Aw, troll go down, go boom…

542 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:48:00pm

re: #537 Gus 802

Yep. Too late. Wonder what that was about. I mean the name itself was suspicious including the first post.

annefrance envy.

543 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:48:15pm

re: #541 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Aw, troll go down, go boom…

Charles hit that troll with a flamethrower.

544 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:48:25pm

re: #542 wrenchwench

annefrance envy.

Probably has an IQ of 167.

545 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:48:37pm

re: #540 SanFranciscoZionist

You have learned much from Alfie. GROOM THAT MOUSE!!!

Cleanest and most terrified mouse ever seen by man, I tell you.

546 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:49:09pm

re: #543 talon_262

Charles hit that troll with a flamethrower.

Killed it fire!

547 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:49:26pm

re: #546 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Killed it fire!

Killed it with fire!

PIMF

548 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:49:44pm

Dog stuff. BBL

549 jaunte  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:50:03pm

re: #527 Girth

Another interesting comment from that thread, from ‘bigcheese80’

…The two largest rank and file police and firefighter unions in Wisconsin endorsed Tom Barrett for Gov. The state troopers union, Milwaukee unions and West Allis police union supported Walker. I think the bigger reason Walker wouldn’t dare breaking up those unions is because he can not afford to be blamed for causing a strike by police or firefighters.
Earlier today, members of the Wisconsin Professional Firefighters Association joined the protesters and marched into the capitol rotunda in their parade gear playing bagpipes and drums.

In related news, the majority speakers of the state assembly and senate happen to be brothers and earlier this week, Walker appointed their father State Patrol Superintendent.

More info here:
postcrescent.com

550 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:52:05pm

Breitbart with Tea Baggers: “I Paid For Your Pension and All I Got Was This Lousy T Shirt”

…..And a k-12 education for yourself and your children……and your grandchildren.

551 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:52:16pm

re: #549 jaunte

Another interesting comment from that thread, from ‘bigcheese80’

In related news, the majority speakers of the state assembly and senate happen to be brothers and earlier this week, Walker appointed their father State Patrol Superintendent.

Talk about nepotism…in most places in the private sector, this would be frowned upon, no?

552 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:52:28pm

re: #489 Gus 802

trollratemeimtryingtosetarecord
Registered since: Feb 19, 2011 at 1:25 pm
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of Pages posted: 0

Oh sure — come on in and announce to the world that you’re trying to troll LGF. Good luck with that.

553 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:52:38pm

re: #550 Killgore Trout

Breitbart with Tea Baggers: “I Paid For Your Pension and All I Got Was This Lousy T Shirt”

…And a k-12 education for yourself and your children…and your grandchildren.

He has children?

554 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:52:51pm

DefendWisconsin Defend Wisconsin
by chezzasf

“Concert for Rights” Mon 5PM at Capitol: Tom Morello, The Nightwatchmen, Rage against the Machine, Wayne Kramer, The Street Dogs. #wiunion

555 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:53:12pm

re: #549 jaunte

Another interesting comment from that thread, from ‘bigcheese80’

Lawmakers’ father picked to head Wis. state patrol

MADISON, Wis. —
Steve Fitzgerald, the father of the two most powerful Republican state lawmakers in Wisconsin, will lead the Wisconsin State Patrol, Gov. Scott Walker’s administration announced Tuesday.

Fitzgerald said the fact that his sons are Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald, R-Horicon, and Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald, R-Juneau, didn’t affect his appointment or how he will approach the job leading the 640-member patrol.

“I have my own focus and my own agenda and they have theirs,” Fitzgerald said in an interview, noting that no questions were raised over the past eight years when he served as U.S. marshal for western Wisconsin while his sons were in politics…

556 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:53:15pm

re: #553 Jadespring

He has children?

The protesters with him were wearing the t shirts.

557 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:53:33pm

re: #552 Charles

Oh sure — come on in and announce to the world that you’re trying to troll LGF. Good luck with that.

Yeah. Obvious troll was obvious.

558 jaunte  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:53:42pm

re: #551 talon_262

Heh:

…on Tuesday the governor announced he had hired Steven Fitzgerald, father of state Senate and Assembly majority leaders Scott and Jeff Fitzgerald — two figures Walker needs to advance his agenda through the Legislature — as State Patrol superintendent.

Translation: payback, according to Joe Wineke, former chairman of the state Democratic Party who served as former Gov. Jim Doyle’s chief union negotiator.

“No question in my mind. This isn’t rocket science,” Wineke said.

postcrescent.com

559 blueraven  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:53:48pm

Good Grief. Fox news latest “Breaking News”: Doctors are handing out sick notes for protesting Teachers!!!

This is based on one tea baggin lady who claims she went to a doctor and obtained one, no questions asked. LOL

560 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:54:18pm

re: #553 Jadespring

He has children?

Yeah, 4 of them. No doubt, all in private schools funded by money he’s fleecing from his witless followers.

561 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:57:23pm

re: #520 Decatur Deb

If you remember the very first TP town hall actions, it’s obvious that the SEIU and other unions have been at the top of their astroturefd target list from the beginning.

Which is truly bizarre because the TP is supposed to be made up of “working people” tired of corporate influence and who are championing the little guy.

But they hate unions as much as the robber barons of old. Fancy that.

562 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:57:46pm

a_a_anderson Ashley Anderson
by iamtraceyc

Spotted: Sarah Palin impersonator with sign, “This bill is stupid, and I know stupid!” #wiunion

563 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:58:12pm

re: #555 Gus 802

What blatant nepotism.

564 Eclectic Cyborg  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:58:41pm

Just in case anyone forgot: The right wing view on Unions is this:

Unions should not be necessary. People are capable of negotiating their own employment terms with their employers. The reason wages and benefits are on the decline is NOT because Corporations are being greedy, it’s because the Corporations are crippled by socialistic government regulations that makes it hard form them to be competitive, hence employees suffer because of the Government, NOT because of the company they work for.

They believe Corporations would look after their workers just fine if all those pesky government laws and regulations weren’t in the way.

565 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:00:55pm

re: #564 dragonfire1981

Just in case anyone forgot: The right wing view on Unions is this:

Unions should not be necessary. People are capable of negotiating their own employment terms with their employers. The reason wages and benefits are on the decline is NOT because Corporations are being greedy, it’s because the Corporations are crippled by socialistic government regulations that makes it hard form them to be competitive, hence employees suffer because of the Government, NOT because of the company they work for.

They believe Corporations would look after their workers just fine if all those pesky government laws and regulations weren’t in the way.

Yeah, just ask Upton Sinclair, America was truly a worker’s paradise at the turn of the last century.

567 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:02:16pm

Don’t ya just love this dude?

teapartynation Judson Phillips

We are broke thanks to the unions and the liberals. THey should be the first to feel the pain for the problems they caused. #tcot #wiunion

568 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:02:47pm

re: #565 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, just ask Upton Sinclair, America was truly a worker’s paradise at the turn of the last century.

But if people didn’t like their working conditions, they could just go somewhere else, or refuse to take those jobs…

///

569 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:03:09pm

re: #565 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, just ask Upton Sinclair, America was truly a worker’s paradise at the turn of the last century.

What’s pathetic is that Upton Sinclair is still relevant today, especially if you look at some of the working conditions for migrant farmers and factory farm workers.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Unions are still needed, and are still important.

570 Professor Chaos  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:03:24pm

When the Teabaggers won the House in November I just kinda shrugged. I saw it as nothing more than the nation’s political pendulum swinging back towards the right, even though I was nauseous from all the stupid.

For the first month they haven’t done jack about what they claimed was most important, government spending, but instead there’s been a sustained assault on women’s rights. Now that the first shot in the budget wars has been fired, it’s really just about busting unions.

This country is under assault all right, but it’s not by the liberal socialist marxist commie Islamists.

571 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:05:17pm

re: #567 Stanley Sea

Don’t ya just love this dude?

teapartynation Judson Phillips

We are broke thanks to the unions and the liberals. THey should be the first to feel the pain for the problems they caused. #tcot #wiunion

Nah, he’s broke because he’s too dumb to find his bootstraps.

572 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:06:50pm

re: #555 Gus 802

Lawmakers’ father picked to head Wis. state patrol

I don’t have a problem with Steven Fitzgerald being the head of the WI State Police if he’s qualified (as he seems to be, having been the US Marshal for a big chunk of the state), but the timing and circumstances stink to high heaven with political patronage and nepotism.

573 jaunte  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:07:08pm

re: #567 Stanley Sea

Don’t ya just love this dude?

teapartynation Judson Phillips

We are broke thanks to the unions and the liberals. THey should be the first to feel the pain for the problems they caused. #tcot #wiunion

I think if he’s broke, then according to his principles he can’t vote.

574 Targetpractice  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:07:32pm

re: #569 Lidane

What’s pathetic is that Upton Sinclair is still relevant today, especially if you look at some of the working conditions for migrant farmers and factory farm workers.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Unions are still needed, and are still important.

Yep. The big corporations long ago decided that they liked things before workers had rights, before unions gave the workers a collective voice, before people got worked up over things like clean air and drinkable water. Then free-trade came along and they found out that they could now exploit foreign workers in the same way they’d once exploited domestic ones. Of course, this was after they figured out that they could just replace domestic workers in jobs that couldn’t be outsourced with illegals who are so scared of being deported that they’ll work for slave wages and in hazardous conditions without complaint.

575 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:08:03pm

re: #572 talon_262

How’d he get the state marshal job, I’d ask.

576 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:08:06pm

Speaking of protests over education, there hasn’t been much said about this at all:

Student strike at University of Puerto Rico rocks island and sparks political crisis

A student strike at the University of Puerto Rico has forced the resignation of its president and sparked the second political crisis in a year for the island’s rulers.

José Ramón de la Torre, head of the 60,000-student system, resigned Friday after a series of violent clashes between students and riot police.

Some 200 people have been arrested and scores of students injured, prompting professors and university workers to walk out for two days last week in sympathy with the students.

On Monday, conservative Gov. Luis Fortuño finally relented and pulled back the hundreds of riot police that had been occupying the system’s 11 campuses for weeks.

It was the first police occupation of the university in more than 30 years.

Students began boycotting classes in early December to protest a special $800 annual fee Fortuño imposed this semester to reduce a huge government deficit.

That fee - equal to more than 50% of annual tuition - stunned the university community, given that more than 60% of UPR students have family incomes of less than $20,000 a year.

577 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:10:11pm

re: #56 Tigger2

I saw a great sign in the photos of the protesters, all it had on it was.
“Screw us and we multiply”

That is the best sign slogan I have ever heard :D

578 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:10:33pm

re: #575 Obdicut

The US Marshal position is federal, not state…hopefully, he got that position because he’s a good cop, but you never know.

579 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:10:46pm

Teachers having a field day with this sign t.co #wiunion // LOL!!!!

Where is the red sharpie?

580 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:11:32pm

re: #576 Lidane

Speaking of protests over education, there hasn’t been much said about this at all:

Student strike at University of Puerto Rico rocks island and sparks political crisis

Oh, and no surprise here— the governor was a guest at CPAC.

581 freetoken  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:12:33pm

re: #576 Lidane

I’ve never understood why authorities just don’t let students who want to sit out of class as a protest to just go ahead and do it.

Ultimately (in the long run) simply boycotting class is a losing strategy and the reason it’s done is to try and bait the authorities to overstep - and that is what eventually happens.

582 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:12:35pm

re: #579 Stanley Sea

Teachers having a field day with this sign [Link: t.co…] #wiunion // LOL!!!

Where is the red sharpie?

WHY DO THEY NEVER KNOW HOW TO SPELL?!?! WHY IS THEIR GRAMMAR SO ABYSMAL?!?!


I mean, Christ, I know they don’t read, but do they read anything?

583 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:12:42pm

re: #564 dragonfire1981
Minimum wage is a ball and chain on the economy also.

584 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:13:06pm

re: #577 WindUpBird
HA!

585 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:14:00pm

re: #582 WindUpBird

WHY DO THEY NEVER KNOW HOW TO SPELL?!?! WHY IS THEIR GRAMMAR SO ABYSMAL?!?!

Because education is a liberal plot to undermine America. That’s why.

I mean, Christ, I know they don’t read, but do they read anything?

Pfft. All they need is the Bible and whatever Glenn Beck is selling this week.

586 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:14:28pm

re: #580 Lidane

Oh, and no surprise here— the governor was a guest at CPAC.

ha! ha!

Wisconsin is getting a real taste of the new improved Lipton’s GOP post Obama, have some union busting and racism and misogyny with your Earl Grey

587 Jaerik  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:15:48pm

I’m pretty torn on this one. The existence of unions is the reason most of us have 40 hour days, sick time, safe workplaces, etc.

That being said, the demands of a union are usually met by the realities of a business’ bottom line. Unions at a private company can never ask for more than the business brings in, or everyone goes out of business.

But public unions don’t have that issue. The money coming in is vague, and so is the money going out. And while labor at private companies typically has zero input into the top-level decisions, public labor unions have the power of the public vote to directly influence the makeup of public management.

So I have sympathy with public workers. I worked in education for six years. I think unions are a good thing in general.

But public unions have a great deal of power through multiple paths of collective negotiation already, including the public vote. And like private sector unions, they can’t ignore the realities of the bottom line forever. Abolishing them is wrong, but they do need reform.

588 Professor Chaos  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:15:50pm

re: #585 Lidane

Because education is a liberal plot to undermine America. That’s why.

Pfft. All they need is the Bible and whatever Glenn Beck is selling this week.

Stalin was a Grammar Nazi!

Wait….what?

589 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:16:06pm

re: #583 the west is the best

Minimum wage is a ball and chain on the economy also.

so are child labor laws!

Man, wouldn’t it be great if we could get those 8 year olds in the mines, reach your little hands in there son! Pull out a diamond for us!

590 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:16:06pm

re: #583 the west is the best

Minimum wage is a ball and chain on the economy also.

So is having to let workers go to the bathroom.

591 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:16:29pm

re: #582 WindUpBird

WHY DO THEY NEVER KNOW HOW TO SPELL?!?! WHY IS THEIR GRAMMAR SO ABYSMAL?!?!

I mean, Christ, I know they don’t read, but do they read anything?

I don’t understand why with all the of the fun people have made about their spelling, at every single rally it seems, that people still don’t check their spelling.

592 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:17:11pm

re: #591 Jadespring

I don’t understand why with all the of the fun people have made about their spelling, at every single rally it seems, that people still don’t check their spelling.

I think at this point the insane misspellings may have become a point of pride. Or something.

593 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:17:45pm

re: #583 the west is the best

Minimum wage is a ball and chain on the economy also.

Clean air and clean water is a ball and chain on the economy.

594 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:18:19pm

re: #578 talon_262

Well, the post of US Marshall is by presidential appointment, so it’s still a political job.

I really hate how many of our law enforcement jobs are tied into politics.

595 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:18:39pm

re: #587 Jaerik

No one is saying that unions are immune to reform. Checks and balances are a good thing.

What’s happening in Wisconsin, however, has nothing to do with that. It’s a blatantly political attack on the teachers union because they endorsed the other candidate for office. Walker is deliberately leaving the unions for police and firefighters and emergency workers out of this bill because they endorsed him. It’s nakedly political and cynical and should be stopped.

596 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:19:32pm

re: #585 Lidane

Because education is a liberal plot to undermine America. That’s why.

Pfft. All they need is the Bible and whatever Glenn Beck is selling this week.

well, it is a plot to undermine America! If you believe in their “america”. With a small “a” to denote the lack of facility with the written word :D

I think their “america” is a psychic wasteland, I prefer my America where people speak in complete sentences and don’t eat right after they wipe

597 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:20:05pm

re: #593 Gus 802
Pinochet/Palin in 2012!

598 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:20:37pm

re: #591 Jadespring

I don’t understand why with all the of the fun people have made about their spelling, at every single rally it seems, that people still don’t check their spelling.

It takes two seconds! I’ve made zany signs, many many times. Not for protests, just for various projects, they take a long time to make by hand! Perhaps less time if they just go to kinkos and make them blow it up. :D Amateurs!

599 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:20:55pm

Tea Party Labor Priorities:

• Remove minimum wage.
• No more payed sick days.
• No more payed holidays.
• No breaks.
• 20 minute lunch break.
• No retirement.
• 7 day work weeks.
• No overtime.

600 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:21:19pm

re: #587 Jaerik

And while labor at private companies typically has zero input into the top-level decisions, public labor unions have the power of the public vote to directly influence the makeup of public management.

But only in proportion to their makeup in the population, which is very low. I don’t get why people are bringing up the vote so often.

There’s 385,000 union members in Wisconsin.

There’s 5,654,774 people in Wisconsin.

Even if they all voted as a block, they’re not going to have any sort of overwhelming effect.

601 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:21:36pm

re: #599 Gus 802

I am not going to spell check you.

602 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:21:39pm

re: #578 talon_262

The US Marshal position is federal, not state…hopefully, he got that position because he’s a good cop, but you never know.

The actual US Marshal is a political appointee and is part of the local federal district court or federal appeals court. Most, if not all, are LEO’s but it isn’t a requirement - though I believe it has become traditional to select from a list of qualified LEOs in the district.. Each serves at the discretion of the President.

Deputy Marshals, OTOH, are some of the finest LEO in the nation.

603 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:21:47pm

re: #599 Gus 802
Economic illiteracy for all!

604 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:21:49pm

Well, random historical musing (you knew I would):

Part of the problem was that they tried, in the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, to apply the same working rules to the factories that had applied to the farms.

Farmers worked all day, and nobody was watching for their safety.

However, they worked outdoors, in a variety of tasks, and they were hourly in the sense that more work meant more profit. They worked with and around their families, and they were the ones watching out for their safety.* If something happened, they still had the farm, and often other family members to help. Of course children worked on the farm. The entire family pitched in. The kids also went to school.

This was unlike the factories, where different rules needed to apply, and until the rise of the unions, this fact was not recognized.

All of that said, this is still a complex issue, and I do think that sometimes Unions have gone too far in their demands.

*I had a great-great aunt who was widowed by a farm accident, so I’m not asserting it was always safe.

605 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:21:49pm

re: #587 Jaerik

I’m pretty torn on this one. The existence of unions is the reason most of us have 40 hour days, sick time, safe workplaces, etc.

That being said, the demands of a union are usually met by the realities of a business’ bottom line. Unions at a private company can never ask for more than the business brings in, or everyone goes out of business.

But public unions don’t have that issue. The money coming in is vague, and so is the money going out. And while labor at private companies typically has zero input into the top-level decisions, public labor unions have the power of the public vote to directly influence the makeup of public management.

So I have sympathy with public workers. I worked in education for six years. I think unions are a good thing in general.

But public unions have a great deal of power through multiple paths of collective negotiation already, including the public vote. And like private sector unions, they can’t ignore the realities of the bottom line forever. Abolishing them is wrong, but they do need reform.

votes in a campaign are not collective bargaining. This is a ridiculous notion.

606 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:22:26pm

re: #591 Jadespring

I don’t understand why with all the of the fun people have made about their spelling, at every single rally it seems, that people still don’t check their spelling.

They celebrate ignorance…enough said.

607 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:22:28pm

re: #600 Obdicut

But only in proportion to their makeup in the population, which is very low. I don’t get why people are bringing up the vote so often.

There’s 385,000 union members in Wisconsin.

There’s 5,654,774 people in Wisconsin.

Even if they all voted as a block, they’re not going to have any sort of overwhelming effect.

They bring it up, because it’s the best argument they have, which is still full of hot air.

But it is still the only argument that would past first blink, if someone’s not very bright they might just swlalow it

608 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:23:27pm

re: #599 Gus 802

Tea Party Labor Priorities:

• Remove minimum wage.
• No more payed sick days.
• No more payed holidays.
• No breaks.
• 20 minute lunch break.
• No retirement.
• 7 day work weeks.
• No overtime.

Result: no middle class.

609 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:23:34pm

Tea Party Health Care Plan

• Prayer Room

610 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:23:42pm

re: #599 Gus 802

Tea Party Labor Priorities:

• Remove minimum wage.
• No more payed sick days.
• No more payed holidays.
• No breaks.
• 20 minute lunch break.
• No retirement.
• 7 day work weeks.
• No overtime.

But they champion the little guy and Real America, don’tcha know.

611 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:23:42pm

re: #583 the west is the best

Minimum wage is a ball and chain on the economy also.

Nobody who earns minimum wage has ever expressed that sentiment, only those who pay it. I wonder why that is?

612 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:23:53pm

re: #600 Obdicut

But only in proportion to their makeup in the population, which is very low. I don’t get why people are bringing up the vote so often.

There’s 385,000 union members in Wisconsin.

There’s 5,654,774 people in Wisconsin.

Even if they all voted as a block, they’re not going to have any sort of overwhelming effect.

ding ding

613 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:24:09pm

re: #608 talon_262

Result: no middle class.

Yep! Let’s turn America into serfdom!

614 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:24:14pm

Madison fire dept chiefs: “were at ground zero. What happens here affects the rest of the country.” #wiunion

615 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:24:49pm

re: #539 Stanley Sea

plcorbett Patrick L. Corbett
@
My working conditions are your children’s learning conditions! #wiunion @WEAC [Link: plixi.com…] RT

Damn right!

616 Winny Spencer  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:24:53pm

re: #597 the west is the best

Pinochet/Palin in 2012!

No way Palin would settle for playing second fiddle.

617 freetoken  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:25:20pm

re: #609 Gus 802

Tea Party Health Care Plan

• Prayer Room

SHARIA!!!

618 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:26:01pm

re: #616 Winny Spencer

No way Palin would settle for playing second fiddle.

Which is what rightly scared people away from voting McCain. There’s no way in hell that Caribou Barbie should ever be let near the nuke codes or any actual power.

619 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:26:46pm

re: #611 wrenchwench
Or Minnesota Crazy Ladies.

620 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:26:54pm

re: #611 wrenchwench

Nobody who earns minimum wage has ever expressed that sentiment, only those who pay it. I wonder why that is?

Because they don’t want to pay even that, Alex?

/Jeopardy…only this is for keeps

621 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:27:31pm

re: #616 Winny Spencer
How about Pinochet/Dickens?

622 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:27:35pm

re: #614 Stanley Sea

Madison fire dept chiefs: “were at ground zero. What happens here affects the rest of the country.” #wiunion

Yep, because it WILL spread if it takes hold in Wisconsin, the know-nothing contagion wave is rising

623 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:27:44pm

re: #559 blueraven

Good Grief. Fox news latest “Breaking News”: Doctors are handing out sick notes for protesting Teachers!!!

This is based on one tea baggin lady who claims she went to a doctor and obtained one, no questions asked. LOL

You know, I hope this is true. They need all of the support they can get. It would actually be a really cool way for doctors to help out.

624 jaunte  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:28:13pm

NYT: Monica Davey and A. G. Sulzberger


Dueling Protests in a City Where Nothing Is Getting Done

At times, the two sides seemed to talk past each other. The governor’s supporters said state workers needed to accept increases in their pension and health care costs, just as other Americans have.

Many in the union crowd said they were willing to accept the proposed cuts — and labor leaders have expressed willingness to do so as well — but would not agree to the bill’s broader provisions. Those measures would prohibit unions from bargaining over issues other than wages, stop them from having dues deducted from state paychecks and require them to hold annual elections to stay in existence.

“It’s been an intentional framing of the issue so that it’s hard for people to hear each other,” said Barb Sullivan, a fourth-grade teacher who said she was willing to accept what would amount to less money in her pocket. “If they understood it, they would probably have more open minds,” she said of the bill’s supporters.

625 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:28:16pm

re: #559 blueraven

Good Grief. Fox news latest “Breaking News”: Doctors are handing out sick notes for protesting Teachers!!!

This is based on one tea baggin lady who claims she went to a doctor and obtained one, no questions asked. LOL

ARREST THAT DOCTOR LOLOLOLOLO

626 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:28:39pm

re: #563 Obdicut

What blatant nepotism.

What obvious corruption.

627 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:29:54pm

re: #555 Gus 802

Lawmakers’ father picked to head Wis. state patrol

Just a good ol boy

never meanin no harm

beats all you ever saw been in trouble with the law since the day they was born

628 Winny Spencer  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:30:04pm

re: #621 the west is the best

How about Pinochet/Dickens?

I think that might alleviate some teabag-worries about having a South American at the top of the ticket.

629 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:30:53pm

re: #600 Obdicut

But only in proportion to their makeup in the population, which is very low. I don’t get why people are bringing up the vote so often.

There’s 385,000 union members in Wisconsin.

There’s 5,654,774 people in Wisconsin.

Even if they all voted as a block, they’re not going to have any sort of overwhelming effect.

In pure votes, sure they will. On the order of 2 million votes cast in last election in Wisconsin.

But it’s not primarily their numbers, it is the large percentage of union dues that go into political campaigns, and the use of the pool of labor for get out the vote and campaigning efforts.

There have been nonstop adds running all week here in Madison—only by the unions, a relatively short burst came out the first couple days after the Walker proposal hit the news. That has to cost money.

630 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:31:22pm

re: #627 WindUpBird

Just a good ol boy

never meanin no harm

beats all you ever saw been in trouble with the law since the day they was born

Hey, lay off the Dukes…and Waylon! They didn’t do anything to you…

;-P

631 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:31:32pm

re: #613 WindUpBird

Yep! Let’s turn America into serfdom!

I think this is the point. These people talk about how awesome upward mobility is, but they actually want the old European aristocracy in place.

632 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:32:08pm

re: #630 talon_262

Hey, lay off the Dukes…and Waylon! They didn’t do anything to you…

;-P

haha I watched that show religiously as a kid, no worries :D I even watched when they replaced John Schneider and….the other guy *_*

633 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:33:16pm

re: #632 WindUpBird

haha I watched that show religiously as a kid, no worries :D I even watched when they replaced John Schneider and…the other guy *_*

John Schneider and Tom Wopat were like chocolate and peanut butter…they just went together.

634 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:33:44pm

re: #629 BryanS

Don’t you worry. Americans for Prosperity and Club for Growth and The Chamber of Commerce are busy creating a barrage of ads you’ll see in the next few days.

635 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:33:50pm

Out-Of-State Supporters Pick Up Tab For Protesters

channel3000.com

The slices are on the house at Ian’s Pizza in Madison. Owner Ian Gurfield said he’s received about 40 calls from people who want to buy pizza for the protesters demonstrating a block away at the Wisconsin Capitol. The cost of about 600 slices of pizza were covered on Saturday, Gurfield said.

bluecheddar1 blue cheddar

RT @gopher33j: I just ordered 2 pizzas from Ian’s for all of you in Madison, Chicago supports you, and we support local Madison biz #wiunion

RT @MAJeff Ian’s pizza is delivering pies to #WI protesters.[no phone numbers allowed] Solidarity people! #WIUnion #SolidarityWI #p2 #union #labor

636 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:34:08pm

Check out Reine’s page:

littlegreenfootballs.com

637 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:34:08pm

re: #629 BryanS

In pure votes, sure they will. On the order of 2 million votes cast in last election in Wisconsin.

Now, to prove your contention, provide the number of those votes that were from union members.

But it’s not primarily their numbers, it is the large percentage of union dues that go into political campaigns, and the use of the pool of labor for get out the vote and campaigning efforts.

Compare that with the amount of money spent by corporations and their front groups like the Chamber of Commerce.

Yes, unions use money to influence elections. That’s the system we have, even more so post-Citizen’s United. I’m really weirded out that somehow people have decided that it’s unions are uniquely doing so.

638 dmon  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:34:12pm

re: #629 BryanS

Bryan during every election there are groups that organize a ground game, accept donations to run ads, do you then propose we eliminate all interest groups? Outlaw groups from organizing to push political views? or is it just wrong for unions to do?

639 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:34:27pm

re: #629 BryanS

Unions have power in elections, that does not equal collective bargaining rights. The notion is ridiculous, it’s a talking point.

The idea of “negotiating” by vote. What, so you push for one thing, then wait years for the next election year, then try and push for one thing again? Ludicrous

640 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:34:46pm

re: #633 talon_262

John Schneider and Tom Wopat were like chocolate and peanut butter…they just went together.

why can I never remember Wopat’s name

I liked Knight Rider more

641 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:34:49pm
That’s the question before you tonight. Not, “If I stop to help the sanitation workers, what will happen to all of the hours that I usually spend in my office every day and every week as a pastor?” The question is not, “If I stop to help this man in need, what will happen to me?” “If I do not stop to help the sanitation workers, what will happen to them?” That’s the question.

- MLK

642 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:34:51pm

re: #630 talon_262

Hey, lay off the Dukes…and Waylon! They didn’t do anything to you…

;-P

Oh dear. The Dukes of Hazard….. The reason that during my early teen (and utterly clueless to history) years I had a Confederate flag on the wall in my room.

Later on I was horrified when I figured it all out….

643 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:35:30pm

re: #607 WindUpBird

They bring it up, because it’s the best argument they have, which is still full of hot air.

But it is still the only argument that would past first blink, if someone’s not very bright they might just swlalow it

Right. You can’t just ignore the political influence unions have in elections. Joe Klein articulates the argument well for the problem public employee unions pose and why they are different from unions at private companies:

Public employees unions are an interesting hybrid. Industrial unions are organized against the might and greed of ownership. Public employees unions are organized against the might and greed…of the public? Despite their questionable provenance, public unions can serve an important social justice role, guaranteeing that a great many underpaid workers—school bus drivers, janitors (outside of New York City), home health care workers—won’t be too severely underpaid. That role will be kept intact in Wisconsin. In any given negotiation, I’m rooting for the union to win the highest base rates of pay possible…and for management to win the least restrictive work rules and guidelines governing how much truly creative public employees can be paid.

But we’ve had far too many state legislatures, of both parties, that have been cowed by the political power of the unions and enacted contracts that force state and city governments to be run for the benefit of their employees, rather than for their citizens. This situation is most egregious in far too many school districts across the nation. The events in Wisconsin are a rebalancing of power that, after decades of flush times and lax negotiating, had become imbalanced. That is also something that, from time to time, happens in a democracy.

Read more: swampland.blogs.time.com

644 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:35:42pm

re: #629 BryanS

In pure votes, sure they will. On the order of 2 million votes cast in last election in Wisconsin.

I wasn’t aware that union members were mandated to vote as the union does, or even to vote at all.

645 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:35:57pm

re: #640 WindUpBird

why can I never remember Wopat’s name

I liked Knight Rider more

Ahh, early Hoff…fond childhood memories.

646 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:36:55pm

re: #644 Lidane

I wasn’t aware that union members were mandated to vote as the union does, or even to vote at all.

Someone above posted that there are 385,000 union members in WI. How does that equal 2 million votes?

647 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:37:01pm

re: #638 dmon

Bryan during every election there are groups that organize a ground game, accept donations to run ads, do you then propose we eliminate all interest groups? Outlaw groups from organizing to push political views? or is it just wrong for unions to do?

I think his point is that should be all you get if you’re a public worker. Is the possibility of influencing al election. Yipee! I feel empowered already!


So when a nurse at a state hospital starts realizing that there’s dangerous practices and people are being forced to work crazy hours in a clinical environment where mistakes can easily be made (this has actually happened to friends of mine in HC, which is why I bring it up)

Sorry, you’ll just have to wait two years to try and get some traction on it, because there’s no union!

648 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:37:10pm

re: #635 Stanley Sea

Out-Of-State Supporters Pick Up Tab For Protesters

[Link: www.channel3000.com…]

The slices are on the house at Ian’s Pizza in Madison. Owner Ian Gurfield said he’s received about 40 calls from people who want to buy pizza for the protesters demonstrating a block away at the Wisconsin Capitol. The cost of about 600 slices of pizza were covered on Saturday, Gurfield said.

bluecheddar1 blue cheddar

RT @gopher33j: I just ordered 2 pizzas from Ian’s for all of you in Madison, Chicago supports you, and we support local Madison biz #wiunion

RT @MAJeff Ian’s pizza is delivering pies to #WI protesters.[no phone numbers allowed] Solidarity people! #WIUnion #SolidarityWI #p2 #union #labor

They make a good slice at Ian’s.

649 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:37:42pm

re: #642 Jadespring

Oh dear. The Dukes of Hazard… The reason that during my early teen (and utterly clueless to history) years I had a Confederate flag on the wall in my room.

Later on I was horrified when I figured it all out…

I never had the flag, i think my parents subtlety guided me away from that, I had a lot of toys though!


still liked Knight Rider better, far more west coast

650 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:38:04pm

re: #645 talon_262

Ahh, early Hoff…fond childhood memories.

I’ll never forget the drunken hamburger video.

651 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:38:08pm

re: #646 Decatur Deb

Someone above posted that there are 385,000 union members in WI. How does that equal 2 million votes?

Republican math. That’s how.

Also, it assumes that all union members vote as a hive mind, blindly following the union leadership’s endorsements 100% of the time. It robs the individual union member of their free will and conscience.

652 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:38:16pm

re: #645 talon_262

Ahh, early Hoff…fond childhood memories.

the only Hoff I recognize. The Hamburger Hoff is a false Hoff

653 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:38:23pm

re: #650 Stanley Sea

I’ll never forget the drunken hamburger video.

jinx

654 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:38:44pm

re: #637 Obdicut

Now, to prove your contention, provide the number of those votes that were from union members.

Compare that with the amount of money spent by corporations and their front groups like the Chamber of Commerce.

Yes, unions use money to influence elections. That’s the system we have, even more so post-Citizen’s United. I’m really weirded out that somehow people have decided that it’s unions are uniquely doing so.

So when a politician is elected by union support, there is someone tasked with negotiating wages and terms of employment who is not in an adversarial position like what would be the case at a private company. You see not difference in the two situations?

655 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:38:55pm

re: #651 Lidane

Republican math. That’s how.

Also, it assumes that all union members vote as a hive mind, blindly following the union leadership’s endorsements 100% of the time. It robs the individual union member of their free will and conscience.

that seems to be what Republicans want you to believe

THEY ALL VOTE AS ONE!!

656 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:39:06pm

Documents Show Congressman David Wu’s Staff “Threatened to Shut Down His Campaign”

Documents obtained by WW—emails and photographs sent from Wu’s federally issued BlackBerry in the early-morning hours of Saturday, Oct. 30, 2010—reveal a bizarre portrait of Wu in the days right before the Nov. 2 general election.

Wu’s increasingly odd behavior and communication typified by this set of emails so troubled staff that sources say the employees deliberately hid him from public view during the last three days of Wu’s campaign even as his Republican opponent furiously fought for votes across Oregon’s 1st Congressional District.


Picture at link

657 dmon  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:39:07pm

Yes Bryan, we union member are like the borg, we are instructed how to vote then obediently Obey…… Guess when our Union backed a republican candidate for mayor it just meant we momentarily went off the matrix.

Heres an idea, talk to a few union members and ask them how it works, turn off Limbaug and Beck

658 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:39:41pm

re: #653 WindUpBird

jinx

It was epic

659 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:39:44pm

re: #654 BryanS

So when a politician is elected by union support, there is someone tasked with negotiating wages and terms of employment who is not in an adversarial position like what would be the case at a private company. You see not difference in the two situations?

I know it’s shocking, but sometimes people vote in their own self interest.

660 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:39:47pm

re: #654 BryanS

So when a politician is elected by union support, there is someone tasked with negotiating wages and terms of employment who is not in an adversarial position like what would be the case at a private company. You see not difference in the two situations?

In what world are there only union votes electing a politician?

661 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:40:26pm

re: #659 Fozzie Bear

I know it’s shocking, but sometimes people vote in their own self interest.

if I were union, and the union told me to vote for Bachmann, that wouldn’t happen now or ever

662 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:40:27pm

re: #654 BryanS

So when a politician is elected by union support, there is someone tasked with negotiating wages and terms of employment who is not in an adversarial position like what would be the case at a private company. You see not difference in the two situations?

Why do you feel that someone at a company is in an ‘adverserial position’ with the workers when negotiating wages and terms of employment?

663 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:40:52pm

re: #656 Killgore Trout

weeeird o.o

664 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:40:52pm

re: #634 recusancy

Don’t you worry. Americans for Prosperity and Club for Growth and The Chamber of Commerce are busy creating a barrage of ads you’ll see in the next few days.

And this is their advantage and why they want to get rid of all unions. Unions are just about the only organizations on the opposite side that have the kind of cash to buy ads on the airwaves. I keep hearing about the nefarious George Soros and his leftist activities, but I have yet to see him do what the Koch Brothers have done. I kinds wish he and a few other liberal billionaires would.

665 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:41:09pm

re: #638 dmon

Bryan during every election there are groups that organize a ground game, accept donations to run ads, do you then propose we eliminate all interest groups? Outlaw groups from organizing to push political views? or is it just wrong for unions to do?

It’s not wrong for anyone to organize. My point is simple and I will plainly state it again. When an elected official who was supported by unions is in the position of negotiating terms of employment, there is no adversarial push back on the union demands like there would be for unions in the private sector.

666 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:41:54pm

re: #628 Winny Spencer
Pinochet may not be Fascist enough, after all.

667 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:42:24pm

re: #665 BryanS

It’s not wrong for anyone to organize. My point is simple and I will plainly state it again. When an elected official who was supported by unions is in the position of negotiating terms of employment, there is no adversarial push back on the union demands like there would be for unions in the private sector.

so if an elected official was endorsed by unions and wins, they have no other pressures or duties?

They’re not elected to office, they’re elected as Union Helper Dude!

668 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:42:55pm

re: #665 BryanS

I think you mistakenly think that the relationship between most unions and management is adversarial. It only is in troubled industries. It’s not the norm. You mainly hear about unions when negotiations break down. You don’t hear “Union and management come happily to new agreement” because it’s not news.

669 dmon  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:43:08pm

re: #665 BryanS

When a politician is elected with the support of an industry, he is in a position to negotiate laws, regulations and taxation that affects that industry….are you also against PACs, donations by bussiness owners, etc?

670 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:43:12pm

re: #657 dmon

Yes Bryan, we union member are like the borg, we are instructed how to vote then obediently Obey… Guess when our Union backed a republican candidate for mayor it just meant we momentarily went off the matrix.

Heres an idea, talk to a few union members and ask them how it works, turn off Limbaug and Beck

I get that feeling, like a lot of people here who are bitching about unions are pretty out of the loop

671 Lidane  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:43:14pm

re: #665 BryanS

When an elected official who was supported by unions is in the position of negotiating terms of employment, there is no adversarial push back on the union demands like there would be for unions in the private sector.

Sounds like bullshit to me. Do you have any proof of this?

672 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:43:31pm

re: #668 Obdicut

I think you mistakenly think that the relationship between most unions and management is adversarial. It only is in troubled industries. It’s not the norm. You mainly hear about unions when negotiations break down. You don’t hear “Union and management come happily to new agreement” because it’s not news.

troubled industries make for good news and blog rants about unions, of course

673 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:44:00pm

re: #641 Fozzie Bear

- MLK

That quote is the essence of what Christianity was about. I never lived during the time when there was a Christian left. It must have been awesome to see.

674 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:44:48pm

re: #673 moderatelyradicalliberal

That quote is the essence of what Christianity was about. I never lived during the time when there was a Christian left. It must have been awesome to see.

It’s still here. It just doesn’t get media coverage any more.

675 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:44:48pm

re: #644 Lidane

I wasn’t aware that union members were mandated to vote as the union does, or even to vote at all.

They’re not, but who wouldn’t vote for the side more likely to give them more favorable compensation packages for work. Of course some union members do not support the Dems, but all the union dues and those members who do support the left give unions political power. Or are you arguing unions do not have political power and therefore have no ability to persuade a politician they helped elect to give more pay/benefitcs/etc?

676 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:45:08pm

re: #669 dmon

When a politician is elected with the support of an industry, he is in a position to negotiate laws, regulations and taxation that affects that industry…are you also against PACs, donations by bussiness owners, etc?

But that’s different, because they’re real Americans, not like the ebil yoonyuns

677 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:45:30pm

re: #675 BryanS

but who wouldn’t vote for the side more likely to give them more favorable compensation packages for work

Someone for whom other issues were more important.

678 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:45:35pm

re: #646 Decatur Deb

Someone above posted that there are 385,000 union members in WI. How does that equal 2 million votes?

It doesn’t…about 2 million votes were cast last election. I actually thought the union membership was a bit lower—at 250k.

679 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:46:04pm

re: #673 moderatelyradicalliberal

That quote is the essence of what Christianity was about. I never lived during the time when there was a Christian left. It must have been awesome to see.

Uh, just come to Portland. it’s right here! You have never SEEN more lefty Christians :)


Location matters, community matters. All parts of the country are not created equal.

680 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:47:00pm

re: #657 dmon

You can put words in my mouth if it makes you feel better. But I never suggested union members are automatons.

681 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:47:34pm

re: #673 moderatelyradicalliberal
Well, there’s the Unitarian/Universalists, Congregationalists, etc.

682 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:47:48pm

re: #679 WindUpBird

Uh, just come to Portland. it’s right here! You have never SEEN more lefty Christians :)

Location matters, community matters. All parts of the country are not created equal.

I’m in Texas, so maybe that’s the problem.

And I didn’t mean that there aren’t liberal Christians, I meant an identifiable movement that was at the forefront of politics and policy.

683 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:47:52pm

re: #660 WindUpBird

In what world are there only union votes electing a politician?

Very nice straw man. Did you have fun burning it down?

684 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:47:58pm

re: #675 BryanS

They’re not, but who wouldn’t vote for the side more likely to give them more favorable compensation packages for work. Of course some union members do not support the Dems, but all the union dues and those members who do support the left give unions political power. Or are you arguing unions do not have political power and therefore have no ability to persuade a politician they helped elect to give more pay/benefitcs/etc?

If Santorum promised me $500,000 a year tax-free and a 1 hour work week for voting for him, I’d still spit in his face, dude.

685 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:48:10pm

re: #680 BryanS

You can put words in my mouth if it makes you feel better. But I never suggested union members are automatons.

You said this:


but who wouldn’t vote for the side more likely to give them more favorable compensation packages for work

Implying union members automatically voted for whichever ‘side’ was more likely to give them favorable compensation packages.

Treating them as though they had no other values than who would give them the most money.

Maybe you didn’t think through what you were saying, but that’s how it came out.

686 Jadespring  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:48:18pm

re: #665 BryanS

It’s not wrong for anyone to organize. My point is simple and I will plainly state it again. When an elected official who was supported by unions is in the position of negotiating terms of employment, there is no adversarial push back on the union demands like there would be for unions in the private sector.

Oh that is so not true. The previous Mayor of Toronto who was considered a lefter guy and was supported by unions in his campaign got in a huge fight with them over contracts.

687 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:48:38pm

re: #681 the west is the best

Well, there’s the Unitarian/Universalists, Congregationalists, etc.

On the rare occasions that I go to church, it’s a Unitarian church.

688 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:49:33pm

re: #683 BryanS

Very nice straw man. Did you have fun burning it down?

Your argument is that collective bargaining can be replaced by political campaigns. That it’s some sort of effective substitute.


That’s just stupid! There, no straw man. You are saying foolish things that make no sense, coming from an ideologically rigid position.

689 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:50:07pm

re: #686 Jadespring

Oh that is so not true. The previous Mayor of Toronto who was considered a lefter guy and was supported by unions in his campaign got in a huge fight with them over contracts.

I get the feeling bryanS doens’t actually know anything about unions other than what he reads on blogs


maybe hears on the radio

690 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:50:44pm

Walker’s Trojan Horse

Interesting info I found via FB

691 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:50:52pm

re: #685 Obdicut

You said this:

Implying union members automatically voted for whichever ‘side’ was more likely to give them favorable compensation packages.

Treating them as though they had no other values than who would give them the most money.

Maybe you didn’t think through what you were saying, but that’s how it came out.


Man it’s such a bitch when we read what they’re saying more dilligently than THEY read what they’re saying

it’s like arguing with someone with narcolepsy

692 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:51:24pm

re: #662 Obdicut

Why do you feel that someone at a company is in an ‘adverserial position’ with the workers when negotiating wages and terms of employment?

Isn’t that the case with union versus management? Adversarial doesn’t have to mean contentious. Management wants the least possible expense for employees, unions want the best possible outcome. That is by definition adversarial I think. My point is only that a politician who gets union support would be politically dead if they ticked off the unions. An owner at a private company cannot be voted out of office by the employees.

693 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:51:38pm

re: #690 eclectic infidel

copypasta!

Governor Scott Walker’s manufactured $3.6 billion state budget deficit in the next biennium is rapidly unraveling as a bogus figure. Yesterday I pointed out that the figure is based on $3.9 billion in new agency requests (Table 1) for a spending increase of 6.2%, a figure we noted is never approved by the legislature. Those are REQUESTS, not actual dollars expended.


Well today the non-partisan legislative Fiscal Bureau released a memo showing that in the current state budget, agencies requested a 9.7% increase in GPR dollars, yet were given an actual REDUCTION of 2.6%. That’s a difference of nearly $3.5 billion!

That means this isn’t just a bunch of Democrats looking at the numbers that are being used to put a budget together and crying foul; this is hard and cold reality from a respected, unbiased resource – the non-partisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau.

Further, we also know that there was no statutory requirement for a “budget repair” bill from the same non-partisan source, yet Governor Walker is claiming we needed to act due to impending payments to the state of Minnesota and the money owed the Patient’s

Compensation Fund. Well, chalk up another lie. Walker’s “Repair” bill addresses NEITHER.

So just what is Governor Walker up to?

Remember the Trojan War.

The only way you can slip a bunch of bad public policy into law in Wisconsin is to disguise it as something else.

Create a crisis, claim you are the sole path to resolving that crisis needing to enact whatever measures are necessary and be a hero to the people. Right…

This week Walker is trying to be a darling of the national conservative movement by taking away workers rights, destroying collective bargaining and setting the stage for big cutbacks in Medicaid. Next week he announced a budget that is full of cuts to education, healthcare and funds for police and fire.

All of these actions are hidden in the Trojan horse called the “budget repair” bill.

Back then they warned “Beware Greeks bearing gifts.”

Today the problem is the national conservative special interests get the gifts, while we get what comes from the tail end of this Trojan horse.

(Next blog….How much of the $2 BILLION in tax breaks and loopholes Walker promised the wealthy during the election will be put into his budget causing a REAL budget crisis?)

694 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:52:52pm

re: #684 WindUpBird

If Santorum promised me $500,000 a year tax-free and a 1 hour work week for voting for him, I’d still spit in his face, dude.

I have to say that I might compromise my principles for that deal.

695 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:53:13pm

re: #692 BryanS

Isn’t that the case with union versus management? Adversarial doesn’t have to mean contentious. Management wants the least possible expense for employees, unions want the best possible outcome. That is by definition adversarial I think. My point is only that a politician who gets union support would be politically dead if they ticked off the unions. An owner at a private company cannot be voted out of office by the employees.

Management doesn’t want skilled employees? Just the least expensive? is this how it always works out for you in your workplace?

Now we’re getting somewhere. I’ve worked places where I wasn’t valued, I’ve worked places where I was!

here’s a tip: management sometimes isn’t as concerned about the race to the bottom as they are about long term performance, when they’re a good company. :)

696 Stanley Sea  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:53:39pm

re: #690 eclectic infidel

Walker’s Trojan Horse

Interesting info I found via FB

the figure is based on $3.9 billion in new agency requests (Table 1) for a spending increase of 6.2%, a figure we noted is never approved by the legislature. Those are REQUESTS, not actual dollars expended.


I saw this earlier. People are so stupid.

697 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:53:50pm

re: #692 BryanS

Isn’t that the case with union versus management?

No. No more so than it is with employee vs. management.

Adversarial doesn’t have to mean contentious.

Adversarial is a stronger word than contentious.

Management wants the least possible expense for employees, unions want the best possible outcome.

No, this is not true. Management wants the highest level of productivity at the lowest cost.

That is by definition adversarial I think.

Well, you’re wrong.

My point is only that a politician who gets union support would be politically dead if they ticked off the unions.

And again, you’re acting as though the unions alone elect them. You say you’re not, but you are— what if they tick off the unions, but in doing so, garner support elsewhere?

An owner at a private company cannot be voted out of office by the employees.

And again, you’re acting as though the unions, and only the unions, are voting.

698 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:54:04pm

re: #694 recusancy

I have to say that I might compromise my principles for that deal.

Not me, because then I’d be known as the guy who sold out to Santorum forever, a fate worse than death :D

Also, i hate that guy’s guts, I find it hard to even look at his stupid face

699 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:54:10pm

re: #667 WindUpBird

so if an elected official was endorsed by unions and wins, they have no other pressures or duties?

They’re not elected to office, they’re elected as Union Helper Dude!

Sure seems that way. The stunt pulled by governor Doyle to try and cram the union contracts in Wisconsin through the last week of December and after the elections with the purpose of avoiding negotiating with Walker, well that proves to me it is possible for your favorite special interest to play corrupt political games too. Let’s not pretend corporate interests are the only corrupting influence on government.

700 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:55:21pm

re: #692 BryanS

Isn’t that the case with union versus management? Adversarial doesn’t have to mean contentious. Management wants the least possible expense for employees, unions want the best possible outcome. That is by definition adversarial I think. My point is only that a politician who gets union support would be politically dead if they ticked off the unions. An owner at a private company cannot be voted out of office by the employees.

If he ticked off the unions then the tea baggers would love him. Do you have any evidence to bare out your hypothesis that pro union Gov’s get walked all over?

701 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:56:11pm

re: #699 BryanS

Sure seems that way. The stunt pulled by governor Doyle to try and cram the union contracts in Wisconsin through the last week of December and after the elections with the purpose of avoiding negotiating with Walker, well that proves to me it is possible for your favorite special interest to play corrupt political games too. Let’s not pretend corporate interests are the only corrupting influence on government.

now who the hell is saying that unions don’t play political games?

We’re simply arguing they are necessary. Not that they’re Jesus Christ with his magiclly clean underwear and when Jesus-Union poops, only perfectly formed little pink ovals come out that smell of lilacs


So yeah, for a guy tossing around the straw man label, you sure like lining up the straw men in front of me like they’re the offensive line of the raiders

702 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:56:31pm

re: #671 Lidane

Sounds like bullshit to me. Do you have any proof of this?

Yeah, governor Doyle trying to cram union contracts through to prevent Walker from being able to address labor costs. It was a big brouhaha in state politics here in Wisconsin. It looked so ugly even the Dem leader in the Senate voted against the contracts—quite the brave act considering the howling condemnation he received from union bosses. Ohh, and the Dems had to spring a member of the assembly form jail to get it to pass the assembly.

703 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:56:35pm

re: #694 recusancy

I have to say that I might compromise my principles for that deal.

Have fun with your 30 pieces of silver…

As for me, fuck that.

704 the west is the best  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:56:41pm

re: #687 moderatelyradicalliberal
I’m not very religious, but the Unitarians do have some appeal.

705 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:57:24pm

re: #701 WindUpBird

really, this whole argument was a trojan horse to get that line about poop out

706 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:58:50pm

re: #703 talon_262

Have fun with your 30 pieces of silver…

As for me, fuck that.

I think we’re all just goofing at this point :D

707 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:59:06pm

re: #699 BryanS

Sure seems that way. The stunt pulled by governor Doyle to try and cram the union contracts in Wisconsin through the last week of December and after the elections with the purpose of avoiding negotiating with Walker, well that proves to me it is possible for your favorite special interest to play corrupt political games too. Let’s not pretend corporate interests are the only corrupting influence on government.

Well it looks like Walker never planned on negotiating with the unions. In fact he planned on making it so that negotiating with unions would never happen again. Maybe Doyle knew this would happen? Maybe Doyle shoulf be walking around wearing a t-shirt that says “I told you so”?

708 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:59:24pm

re: #685 Obdicut

You said this:

Implying union members automatically voted for whichever ‘side’ was more likely to give them favorable compensation packages.

Treating them as though they had no other values than who would give them the most money.

Maybe you didn’t think through what you were saying, but that’s how it came out.

Fun times with selective edits edits….you left out my whole statement:

They’re not, but who wouldn’t vote for the side more likely to give them more favorable compensation packages for work. Of course some union members do not support the Dems, but all the union dues and those members who do support the left give unions political power.

709 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:00:28pm

re: #702 BryanS

Yeah, governor Doyle trying to cram union contracts through to prevent Walker from being able to address labor costs. It was a big brouhaha in state politics here in Wisconsin. It looked so ugly even the Dem leader in the Senate voted against the contracts—quite the brave act considering the howling condemnation he received from union bosses. Ohh, and the Dems had to spring a member of the assembly form jail to get it to pass the assembly.

That just disproves yourself. Even with a pro union gov it didn’t get done. These things have to go through the legislature and in this case was killed off by a pro union dem.

710 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:00:30pm

re: #688 WindUpBird

Your argument is that collective bargaining can be replaced by political campaigns. That it’s some sort of effective substitute.

That’s just stupid! There, no straw man. You are saying foolish things that make no sense, coming from an ideologically rigid position.

I made no such argument, but please continue to burn away. It gives a lovely glow.

711 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:02:06pm

re: #691 WindUpBird

Man it’s such a bitch when we selectivelyread what they’re saying more dilligently than THEY read what they’re saying

it’s like arguing with someone with narcolepsy

fixed it for you.

712 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:02:36pm

re: #708 BryanS

Yes, you contradicted yourself.

Nobody is arguing that unions don’t have political power.

That political power does not equal unfair, lavish contracts.

Especially since the corporations— who you say the unions are in an adverserial relationsihp with— are big donors too. And yes, they donate to Democrats as well.

Your argument makes little sense. You have a strange view of employee-employer relationship as simply adversarial. You think workers are motivated solely by money— for most workers, meaningful job with good work environment is more motivating than money— within reason, of course.

713 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:03:39pm

re: #695 WindUpBird

Management doesn’t want skilled employees? Just the least expensive? is this how it always works out for you in your workplace?

Now we’re getting somewhere. I’ve worked places where I wasn’t valued, I’ve worked places where I was!

here’s a tip: management sometimes isn’t as concerned about the race to the bottom as they are about long term performance, when they’re a good company. :)

Best employees for least cost, yeah. What company isn’t like that? Isn’t that one of the reasons why unions came about to begin with?

714 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:04:08pm

re: #698 WindUpBird

Not me, because then I’d be known as the guy who sold out to Santorum forever, a fate worse than death :D

Also, i hate that guy’s guts, I find it hard to even look at his stupid face

I’d take his money, swear up and down i’m voting for him, and then just vote the other way anyway.

Fuck him. I owe no honesty to scumbags.

715 AlexRogan  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:04:54pm

re: #714 Fozzie Bear

I’d take his money, swear up and down i’m voting for him, and then just vote the other way anyway.

Fuck him. I owe no honesty to scumbags.

This I could do…Santorum is a shithead.

716 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:07:05pm

re: #707 moderatelyradicalliberal

Well it looks like Walker never planned on negotiating with the unions. In fact he planned on making it so that negotiating with unions would never happen again. Maybe Doyle knew this would happen? Maybe Doyle shoulf be walking around wearing a t-shirt that says “I told you so”?

We can play the game of whose to blame first, but this happened before Walker was even in office. To be fair, I don’t think either side really wanted to negotiate going into this.

717 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:08:06pm

re: #713 BryanS

Best employees for least cost, yeah. What company isn’t like that? Isn’t that one of the reasons why unions came about to begin with?

No. Most companies didn’t prioritize ‘best’ employees. Unions began with the jobs where industrial accidents were common and there was a large pool of available workers with the requisite skill level, so that they were interchangeable to management.

Unions were formed around quality of life and safety issues as much as they were around wages. These represent costs to the company too, but in the modern day— especially post efficiency-studies— companies have realized that motivated, well-recompensed workers are high producers. So many companies do not attempt to cut costs in terms of workers, but instead cut costs by focusing on retaining workers. This is what Henry Ford did, for example; he paid far more than the average wage to attract the best and retain them.

You have a very simplistic view of unions and industry. The relationship highly depends on the industry, and highly depends on the character of the particular company.

718 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:08:46pm

re: #716 BryanS

To be fair, I don’t think either side really wanted to negotiate going into this.

Why do you think that?

I know why you think it about Walker. Why do you think that about the teachers?

719 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:09:15pm

re: #709 recusancy

That just disproves yourself. Even with a pro union gov it didn’t get done. These things have to go through the legislature and in this case was killed off by a pro union dem.

The Senate Dem leader only voted against the contracts because of how sleazily they were being crammed through and in his words, he was voting the way the state voted when they removed him and and his party from office in the November election. It is good to see politicians on either side with a conscience.

720 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:09:59pm

re: #716 BryanS

We can play the game of whose to blame first, but this happened before Walker was even in office. To be fair, I don’t think either side really wanted to negotiate going into this.

The unions have stated that they will accept the concessions. They will not accept loss of collective bargaining.

721 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:10:24pm

re: #719 BryanS

Where are you from?

722 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:12:52pm

re: #673 moderatelyradicalliberal

That quote is the essence of what Christianity was about. I never lived during the time when there was a Christian left. It must have been awesome to see.

We’re here. If you look to the west side of that big mess of people on the square, you’ll find Grace Episcopal where a few of us hang out once in awhile ;)

723 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:14:10pm

re: #717 Obdicut

No. Most companies didn’t prioritize ‘best’ employees. Unions began with the jobs where industrial accidents were common and there was a large pool of available workers with the requisite skill level, so that they were interchangeable to management.

Unions were formed around quality of life and safety issues as much as they were around wages. These represent costs to the company too, but in the modern day— especially post efficiency-studies— companies have realized that motivated, well-recompensed workers are high producers. So many companies do not attempt to cut costs in terms of workers, but instead cut costs by focusing on retaining workers. This is what Henry Ford did, for example; he paid far more than the average wage to attract the best and retain them.

You have a very simplistic view of unions and industry. The relationship highly depends on the industry, and highly depends on the character of the particular company.

Well, I was responding to WUB’s statement “Management doesn’t want skilled employees? Just the least expensive? is this how it always works out for you in your workplace?”

Of course unions came into being in large part because of work conditions as well. Today, considering employment laws already on the books, that seems less of a primary concern for government employees ( outside of public safety jobs).

724 recusancy  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:17:36pm

re: #723 BryanS

Well, I was responding to WUB’s statement “Management doesn’t want skilled employees? Just the least expensive? is this how it always works out for you in your workplace?”

Of course unions came into being in large part because of work conditions as well. Today, considering employment laws already on the books, that seems less of a primary concern for government employees ( outside of public safety jobs).

And unions still exist to give workers a small bit of power and voice when negotiating pay/benefits against multi-million dollar corporations and, yes, governments.

725 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:17:44pm

re: #718 Obdicut

Why do you think that?

I know why you think it about Walker. Why do you think that about the teachers?

The Doyle situation. That, and public statements by union leaders before Walker took office.

jsonline.com

A November letter sent to WSEU members and obtained Monday by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel appears to confirm that.

“We, along with the bargaining teams, felt that it was important that we have a contract in place before the incoming Walker administration takes over,” reads the letter by WSEU president Robert McLinn and executive director Marty Beil.

726 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:18:26pm

re: #725 BryanS

Nothing you’ve cited there shows the teachers or anyone else unwilling to negotiate.

Did you vote for Walker?

727 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:21:16pm

re: #720 recusancy

The unions have stated that they will accept the concessions. They will not accept loss of collective bargaining.

They say that now. At a minimum, Walker’s move has guaranteed he will get the financial concessions he wanted all along. Going into this past week, unions were not prepared to go as far as they are starting to move now.

728 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:21:26pm

re: #721 Obdicut

Where are you from?

Wisconsin.

729 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:23:13pm

re: #727 BryanS

Why do you say he wanted financial concessions all along, when he already tried to bust the unions by himself only to find he didn’t have the power?

Isn’t that a rather clear sign that that’s what he wanted, not simply financial ‘concessions’?

730 BryanS  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:28:47pm

re: #729 Obdicut

Why do you say he wanted financial concessions all along, when he already tried to bust the unions by himself only to find he didn’t have the power?

Isn’t that a rather clear sign that that’s what he wanted, not simply financial ‘concessions’?

He outlined the percentages he was looking for before taking office. He clearly did want to curtail unions within the government, yes. The unions did not embrace the financial concessions until just in the past couple days.

I don’t think he’s finding he doesn’t have the power— not yet anyhow. Honestly, except perhaps for Madison itself—and even then the reception is mixed—the school closings are not going down well with voters.

731 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:44:41pm

re: #730 BryanS

He outlined the percentages he was looking for before taking office. He clearly did want to curtail unions within the government, yes. The unions did not embrace the financial concessions until just in the past couple days.

He wanted to bust the unions. So saying that he wanted financial concessions is dishonest.

732 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:51:22pm

re: #678 BryanS

It doesn’t…about 2 million votes were cast last election. I actually thought the union membership was a bit lower—at 250k.

And yet the TPer won.

733 dmon  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 4:14:46pm

re: #723 BryanS

Really? So a union that negotiates a mandatory rest period for snow plow drivers shouldnt be primary concern? How about a back hoe operator with unsafe equipment?

In my own personal case, our union agreed to reopen the contract, we agreed to two years of zero percent wage increases, doubling of our insurance contribution, gave up 4 paid holidays…… in return twe were able to get the city to agree to the purchase of a second set of fire gear (putting on wet gear, in January, in Ohio) really sucks……… BTW the city didnt follow thru on the fire gear.

734 dmon  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 4:18:10pm

re: #730 BryanS

If the Governor wanted wage and benefit concessions he could have gotten them….the unions do not control the pension plan the state does

735 Jaerik  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 5:27:36pm

re: #605 WindUpBird

votes in a campaign are not collective bargaining. This is a ridiculous notion.

No it isn’t.

Let’s look at the unsafe and exploitative working conditions that unions first sprang up to stop. The awful abuse of labor we saw centuries ago. The public couldn’t do anything about it even if they wanted to, because the private robber barons could pretty much treat people however they wanted. It took every employee banding together to make them listen.

You can’t do that to public employees even if you wanted to. The public outrage would be such that they wouldn’t allow it. Public employees are not alone in this. Many of us support them and vote in their interests consistently. Wisconsin Democrats are calling for some of these Republicans to be recalled. That’s power, and it won’t be only the public employees voting as a block who accomplish it.

Like I said, it’s not a black and white deal, and the public vote is not a replacement for collective bargaining on its own. Nor did I imply such. I don’t support their abolition, like this asshat does. But I do think they need considerable reform, because there are other ways their rights are protected already, and the financial impact of their demands can be fudged a lot more than they can in private companies.

736 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 5:36:44pm

re: #735 Jaerik

If public outrage wouldn’t allow it, how did Massey Energy get away with its bullshit?

737 Jaerik  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 5:46:35pm

re: #736 Obdicut

If public outrage wouldn’t allow it, how did Massey Energy get away with its bullshit?

Massey Energy is an (evidently pretty evil) private corporation. How they treat their workers is a private decision and the public has only limited and indirect input through the legislative process, meaning the only way their employees can typically fight back is to unionize.

But “management” can’t randomly decide to half public teacher’s pay, revoke their disability coverage, thrust them into unsafe working conditions, or cut out their sick days. They would need approval by the voters or their representatives. Unionizing is not the only protection they have.

738 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 6:05:51pm

re: #737 Jaerik

Massey Energy is an (evidently pretty evil) private corporation. How they treat their workers is a private decision and the public has only limited and indirect input through the legislative process, meaning the only way their employees can typically fight back is to unionize.

What are you talking about?

You said this:

You can’t do that to public employees even if you wanted to. The public outrage would be such that they wouldn’t allow it.

The government can regulate private business very thoroughly. So why on earth do you think public outrage over treatment of public workers is somehow more powerful than outrage over treatment of private workers?

But I do think they need considerable reform, because there are other ways their rights are protected already, and the financial impact of their demands can be fudged a lot more than they can in private companies.

What other ways are their rights protected already? Can you try being more explicit?

739 mph  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 6:26:13pm

I am 100% in favor of eliminating the practice of government agencies automatically collecting union dues directly from employee paychecks. This is an indefensible practice — and losing this special treatment is exactly what the unions are most afraid of.

John Fund in the WSJ:

Labor historian Fred Siegel offers further reasons why unions are manning the barricades. Mr. Walker would require that public-employee unions be recertified annually by a majority vote of all their members, not merely by a majority of those that choose to cast ballots. In addition, he would end the government’s practice of automatically deducting union dues from employee paychecks. For Wisconsin teachers, union dues total between $700 and $1,000 a year.

“Ending dues deductions breaks the political cycle in which government collects dues, gives them to the unions, who then use the dues to back their favorite candidates and also lobby for bigger government and more pay and benefits,” Mr. Siegel told me. After New York City’s Transport Workers Union lost the right to automatic dues collection in 2007 following an illegal strike, its income fell by more than 35% as many members stopped ponying up. New York City ended the dues collection ban after 18 months.

740 mph  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 6:29:19pm

re: #2 Obdicut

What quality of employees does Wisconsin think they’ll attract with this sort of relationship?

They’ll attract better employees, that’s what. 20th century labor unions are designed to protect the mediocre at the expense of the extraordinary.

741 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 6:37:49pm

re: #740 mph

They’ll attract better employees, that’s what. 20th century labor unions are designed to protect the mediocre at the expense of the extraordinary.

So when you offer less money, fewer benefits, and no recourse to collectively lobby for better conditions, you get better employees?

Fun!

743 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 7:03:27pm

UNION MADE

Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor

2009 - You can’t kill F-22, Georgians tell Gates

By Patrik Jonsson, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor / April 8, 2009 Marietta, Ga.

When it came time to name the world’s first fifth-generation jet fighter, the mechanics who assemble the F-22A at Lockheed-Martin’s Marietta plant got the honors.

Their pick? “The Raptor.” “The baddest bird in the sky,” says Jeff Goen, a 30-year employee and local machinists union president.

Now that the Pentagon has said it will cap production of America’s top-of-the-line fighter at 187 aircraft, plane-builders – many of them unionized and staunch Democrats – are “mad as hell,” Mr. Goen says.

744 dmon  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 7:04:50pm

re: #740 mph

I’m a union fire officer…… went to school, on my own initiative, for additional year and a half to become a certified paramedic, for which I receive no additional pay. I didnt go for the pay, I went because i was interested.

I studied for a solid 10 months, 8 hrs a day to score high enough on a promotional exam to make Lieutenant, I had to study that hard because the competition is fierce, the competition is fierce because firefighters cant stand to be second best.

I have 19 years on the job without a single instance of discipline, my “Love me wall” has awards from the department, and several public groups for instances where I was involved in rescuing or resuscitating people.

In my years I have been with my comrades many times frantically searching a junk filled home, in total darkness, extreme heat, not knowing when the floor would cave or the ceiling would fall in…….. but the search went on because we had report of someone trapped inside……

In 19 years I had one service injury (back)… a grand total of 3 duty days

Exactly what are you looking for in a better employee????? Im sorry if those three days bankrupted the state.

745 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 7:13:38pm
746 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 7:23:22pm

UNION MEMBER

Father Mychal F. Judge
May 11, 1933 - September 11, 2001
Uniformed Firefighters Association of Greater New York
Local 94 I.A.F.F. AFL-CIO

747 Gus  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 7:31:34pm

UNION MEMBER

Chesley Burnett “Sully” Sullenberger III
January 23, 1951 -
Air Line Pilots Association
AFL-CIO, IFALPA, CLC

Youtube Video

748 dmon  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 7:37:14pm

UNION MEMBER

Suzzanne Hopper

Clark County Ohio deputy, 38, mother of two. Gunned down on Jan 1 2011 while on duty

749 Amory Blaine  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 8:05:27pm

Someone had a sign in the Rotunda

“This aggression will not stand man”

750 alpuz  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 8:22:29pm

re: #42 Charles

There were more. I’m guessing no more than 1,500. They were calling the protesters ‘commies,’ ‘socialist,’ and ‘freeloaders.’ The deal was they were surrounded by close to 70,000 Wisconsinites who disagreed.

I have video of the ‘exchanges.’ I was there from Thursday morning to today at around 4:30.

On top of the protesting, every local establishment I entered had the national news on covering the rally. It was all pro workers. There was a restaurant we went to on Friday night that had a very interesting story regarding the Tea Party, and their last visit. Supposedly the owner not only gave them the boot, he covered their tab.

It has been an amazing experience. The Firefighters marched with the Unions, the Police marched with the Unions. I have never experienced a moment more honest, than when the Firefighters first entered the square with bagpipes blowing.

Overall, the whole thing was amazing.

751 mph  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 8:43:13pm

Can someone link to a defense of the practice I referenced above — that of government agencies automatically withdrawing union dues directly from employee paychecks?

752 Spocomptonite  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:26:39pm

re: #664 moderatelyradicalliberal

And this is their advantage and why they want to get rid of all unions. Unions are just about the only organizations on the opposite side that have the kind of cash to buy ads on the airwaves. I keep hearing about the nefarious George Soros and his leftist activities, but I have yet to see him do what the Koch Brothers have done. I kinds wish he and a few other liberal billionaires would.

It is against the very nature of a liberal billionaire to act like the Koch brothers do. They use their wealth and power to found/fund organizations that directly address major social problems that they see in the world for those who have no wealth or power of their own (Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Andrew Carnegie immediately pop to mind). They don’t sling mud at other people in order to further increase their already great wealth/power like Koch industries. It’s beneath them.

753 Spocomptonite  Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:33:04pm

My friend, currently a high school teacher in Wisconsin, sent me this.
Youtube Video

754 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 4:02:49am

re: #751 mph

Why do you think it needs a defense? What’s wrong with it?

755 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 4:06:14am

re: #751 mph

Can someone link to a defense of the practice I referenced above — that of government agencies automatically withdrawing union dues directly from employee paychecks?

Convenience—It’s something the workers, union, and management agree to in a negotiated contract. It’s not a law, and not the only way to collect dues. You can also buy a US Savings bond or give to charity via payroll deduction.

756 MPH  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:34:32am

re: #742 Gus 802

It is fair to note that the engineers who actually designed the Lockheed planes you tout are most definitely not union members. I say that not to denigrate unionized employees, but rather my point is that there is no point, positive or negative, to be made about labor unions by way of those examples.

Anyway, until someone starts properly defending the automatic withdrawal of union dues by government agencies, then this debate is useless and boring.

757 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:41:51am

re: #756 MPH

First you need to attack it. You haven’t.

758 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 2:22:38pm

re: #749 Amory Blaine

Someone had a sign in the Rotunda

“This aggression will not stand man”

yay :D

759 jamesfirecat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 3:49:04pm

re: #756 MPH

It is fair to note that the engineers who actually designed the Lockheed planes you tout are most definitely not union members. I say that not to denigrate unionized employees, but rather my point is that there is no point, positive or negative, to be made about labor unions by way of those examples.

Anyway, until someone starts properly defending the automatic withdrawal of union dues by government agencies, then this debate is useless and boring.

You’re not logged in any more but let me take a crack at it….

Its done for convenience.

If you’re a member of a union you have to pay dues.

What do you suggest would be a better system, that people should be given their full paychecks, and then have to waste the necessary time to deliver the money they owe to their local union representative?

Attacking the automatic payment of money you had to pay from ones paycheck to me would seem to argue that you would also be in favor of making people personally hand deliver their social security tax money to some government representative as well…..

Or is there a reason the example I just gave is not like Union dues and if so, why does it fail as an analogy?


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