Massacres in Libya As Protests Grow

Gaddafi launches a ruthless crackdown

WorldFebruary 2011 • Views: 36,447

Colonel Muammar Gaddafi has apparently decided he’s not going down without murdering a lot of people.

Snipers shot protesters, artillery and helicopter gunships were used against crowds of demonstrators, and thugs armed with hammers and swords attacked families in their homes as the Libyan regime sought to crush the uprising.

“Dozens were killed … We are in the midst of a massacre here,” a witness told Reuters. The man said he helped take victims to hospital in Benghazi.

Libyan Muslim leaders told security forces to stop killing civilians, responding to a spiralling death toll from unrest which threatens veteran leader Muammar Gaddafi’s authority.

Mourners leaving a funeral for protesters in the eastern city of Benghazi came under fire, killing at least 15 people and wounding many more. A hospital official said one of those who died was apparently struck on the head by an anti-aircraft missile, and many had been shot in the head and chest.

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98 comments

albusteve Sun, Feb 20, 2011 9:55:24am

unlimited petro dollars can buy you a lot of sycophants and security goons....Mo has already shown he will be ruthless putting down this squabble...I really feel for the Libyians who are giving it their all right now, in spite of too few numbers, and pot shots at their heads

Man on Fire Sun, Feb 20, 2011 9:59:10am

He's been so careful to stay out of the news since his Supervillain heyday of the 1980s, seemingly getting tired of playing that role, even publicly giving up Libya's nuclear program, so it's almost a surprise to see him resume standard dictator tactics. Almost.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:00:37am

There's no words.

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:01:34am

Check out this site (just came via twitter)

[Link: alive.in...]

Speak to tweet

[deleted] Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:01:42am

albusteve Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:02:22am

re: #2 Man on Fire

He's been so careful to stay out of the news since his Supervillain heyday of the 1980s, seemingly getting tired of playing that role, even publicly giving up Libya's nuclear program, so it's almost a surprise to see him resume standard dictator tactics. Almost.

he's the 'Father of Arab Nationalism' or some such hogwash....he's a true child of the desert, fat and happy sitting there in his kingdom as the world turns...a real throwback

Summer Seale Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:02:23am

I really believe that the Israeli ambassador to the UN should get on network news and clamor for a UN investigation in an emergency session to look into these deaths in Lybia and Bahrain and other places. And I mean that he should do it while literally pointing the finger at Ban Ki Moon and all the other delegates in a mocking and highly insulting way.

Preferably the middle finger.

Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:03:08am

I just can't help but think about how impossible it is for us to have a reasonable foreign policy in the region. The lefties love to botch about us supporting dictators. He isolated and shunned Libya for decades to no avail. We recently opened relations with dictator Gadahfi and now he's in danger from a popular revolt. There are no good choices in our relations. These revolutions could result in some Islamist governments but hopefully there will be some more secular democracies for us to deal with. It beats the hell out of military dictators and monarchs. Let's hope for the best.

Man on Fire Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:04:20am

re: #6 albusteve

True. He's one of many who seems annoyed that he's living in modern times that expect him to act democratically. His form of government was basically the norm 800 years ago.

albusteve Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:06:53am

re: #8 Killgore Trout

I just can't help but think about how impossible it is for us to have a reasonable foreign policy in the region. The lefties love to botch about us supporting dictators. He isolated and shunned Libya for decades to no avail. We recently opened relations with dictator Gadahfi and now he's in danger from a popular revolt. There are no good choices in our relations. These revolutions could result in some Islamist governments but hopefully there will be some more secular democracies for us to deal with. It beats the hell out of military dictators and monarchs. Let's hope for the best.

and for gods sake stay the hell out of their domestic affairs

Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:07:07am

Even al Jaz doesn't have reporters doing live reports from Libya.

jaunte Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:08:06am

The five-day uprising in eastern Libya has been the greatest challenge to the 42-year rule of Col Gaddafi, the world's longest-serving ruler.

Needs an edit.

AK-47% Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:08:51am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Even al Jaz doesn't have reporters doing live reports from Libya.

Not even be-bop Jaz?

Man on Fire Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:09:39am

re: #8 Killgore Trout

It does suck. But unlike Egypt or Jordan or elsewhere, the regime in Libya is already pretty theocratic, and a democratic movement is more likely to be more secular than the government it's replacing.

And I happen to agree with my fellow lefties on the supporting dictators point. Is there any reason to think Gadhaffi wouldn't have gotten full-throated US support for decades if he had let oil money flow to US companies? (See: Saudi Arabia, Iran pre-1979, Iraq pre-1991, Egypt, Turkmenistan)

That said, at least the fact that he didn't allowed everyone in the US to agree that he's a brutal bastard.

Charles Johnson Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:12:18am

I see that all the little wingnuts are passing around pictures of the horrible, horrible signs at the Wisconsin demonstrations, signs with awful offensive messages like "Fox Fabricated Nonsense, Inciting Ignorance."

Hate speech! They're persecuting Fox News!

I almost have to laugh at the predictability of it. They spun their idiot heads off to make excuses for the thousands and thousands of signs at Tea Parties advocating racism, violence, conspiracy theories, and worse, but now that they've found a few offensive signs in Wisconsin they're screaming like babies.

Ojoe Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:12:55am

The San Gabriel Mountains of California covered in snow. The Towercam, Pacific time zone.

Man on Fire Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:13:55am

re: #15 Charles

FFNII: the most socialist of all acronyms.

Ojoe Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:14:10am

re: #15 Charles

Politics sure attracts the immature.

Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:14:14am

re: #14 Man on Fire

And I happen to agree with my fellow lefties on the supporting dictators point. Is there any reason to think Gadhaffi wouldn't have gotten full-throated US support for decades if he had let oil money flow to US companies? (See: Saudi Arabia, Iran pre-1979, Iraq pre-1991, Egypt, Turkmenistan)

That said, at least the fact that he didn't allowed everyone in the US to agree that he's a brutal bastard.

Even if we ignore the oil factor there are virtually no legitimate democracies to do business with. When we enact sanctions against the worst dictators in the region (Libya, Iraq, Iran) we are accused of harming the citizens. if we do business with them we're accused of supporting dictators. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. There are no good choices.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:16:40am

Ugly goes all the way to the bone, even if you surround yourself with pretty body guards.

We laughed at him as a clown, but the Libyan people were not laughing.

albusteve Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:16:46am

re: #19 Killgore Trout

Even if we ignore the oil factor there are virtually no legitimate democracies to do business with. When we enact sanctions against the worst dictators in the region (Libya, Iraq, Iran) we are accused of harming the citizens. if we do business with them we're accused of supporting dictators. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. There are no good choices.

just do business as usual, like we have with China for decades....and build 1000 small nuclear power plants

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:18:01am

11:58 into first qtr of Florida/LSU & LSU has 5 fouls already!

AK-47% Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:19:08am

re: #21 albusteve

AK-47% Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:20:40am

re: #21 albusteve

just do business as usual, like we have with China for decades...and build 1000 small nuclear power plants

We have allowed ourselves to bedome dependent on Libya's natural reosurces and on China's financial resources. He have to come to some sort of accomodation with the regimes in power.

Man on Fire Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:22:45am

re: #19 Killgore Trout

The fact that there are no major oil democracies for us to do business with isn't an accident. It's way easier to plunder the heck out of someplace if you have an autocratic dictator as your partner rather than a democracy which could always vote your companies into the poor(er)house.

That's why we played a part in overthrowing Mossadegh in Iran in '53 after he nationalized the oil fields. It's the same story that played out in pretty much every country in Central America and Northern South America (with bananas and coffee rather than oil).

What's the solution? Mine is "support democracy everywhere, hope for the best, and remember that the people likely to pay the price, the giant oil companies, aren't passing that wealth on to the rest of the US anyway." It's not perfect, but it's what I've got.

Tumulus11 Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:23:12am

. This is not Tahrir Square. Libya is in bloody rebellion.
The 'Islamic Emirate of Barqa' has seized a port in Derna, threatening to kill hostages.

'Islamist gunmen have stormed a military arms depot and a nearby port in Libya and seized numerous weapons and army vehicles after killing four soldiers, a security official says.
The group also took several hostages, both soldiers and civilians, and is 'threatening to execute them unless a siege by security forces is lifted' in Al-Baida, the official told AFP on Sunday, asking not to be named.

'This criminal gang assaulted an army weapons depot and seized 250 weapons, killed four soldiers and wounded 16 others' in the Wednesday operation in Derna, which lies east of Al-Baida and 1300km from Tripoli.'

// AFP

calochortus Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:23:38am

re: #19 Killgore Trout

Even if we ignore the oil factor there are virtually no legitimate democracies to do business with. When we enact sanctions against the worst dictators in the region (Libya, Iraq, Iran) we are accused of harming the citizens. if we do business with them we're accused of supporting dictators. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. There are no good choices.

See: Mossadehg 1953

Oil policy trumps democracy.

Winny Spencer Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:23:48am

I wonder how Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi feels right now.

Jadespring Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:25:44am

re: #28 Winny Spencer

I wonder how Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi feels right now.

Hopefully sickly and shitty.

Yukon Digger Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:27:28am

Not sure if this has been posted but it's another Palin story from the Anchorage Daily News -
Former aide rips Palin in leaked book manuscript
You have to love/cry that Todd was such a big player.

calochortus Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:27:29am

Oops, must go out for a bit, BBL

Idle Drifter Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:28:04am

Gaddafi's throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the protesters.

Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:31:44am

re: #27 calochortus

Yes, we do business with dictators in oil rich countries but if the oil and our support was such a factor then why are there so few democracies in the middle east without oil reserves? It's a problem with the region that goes beyond oil.

Idle Drifter Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:31:44am

re: #32 Idle Drifter

Gaddafi's throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the protesters.

I can only admire the protesters dedication in the face of heavy firepower. I mean really how many people in any country would show up knowing that their opponents have artillery sighted in on their positions?

Girl with a Pearl Earring Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:35:34am

re: #34 Idle Drifter

The Libyan people are showing tremendous courage. The Colonel is a complete whack job, but he's still a ruthless murderer. We can only hope that the military (they have families, too) come to their senses and decide en masse to stop pulling the trigger for Gadaffi.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:35:45am

re: #34 Idle Drifter

People with little else to lose, and courage to spare.

efuseakay Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:36:26am

A big part of me kinda wishes the Middle East/etc. would just run out of oil already. Then there'd be no use for them (the thugs in charge). I have more confidence in Western society to survive without oil than I do in the world surviving with oil in the hands of all these assholes.

albusteve Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:39:16am

re: #33 Killgore Trout

Yes, we do business with dictators in oil rich countries but if the oil and our support was such a factor then why are there so few democracies in the middle east without oil reserves? It's a problem with the region that goes beyond oil.

it must have to have something to do with the land...vast nothingness and tribal claims to whatever scant resources there are...if you have an oasis, you are a king

albusteve Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:39:52am

re: #34 Idle Drifter

I can only admire the protesters dedication in the face of heavy firepower. I mean really how many people in any country would show up knowing that their opponents have artillery sighted in on their positions?

the US Marines...but I get your point

APox Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:40:06am

Pretty awful videos out there documenting this stuff in Libya ... Not that it is at all enjoyable watching, but it's a stark reminder to just remember that we are lucky to be where we are. My thoughts go out to these people as they risk everything to try and make a change for themselves and their country.

It's sad in a way that Americans fail so hard at using our change process (voting) where it comes to simply "toughing" it out to get to a polling booth after a day of work/wake up a little early and educate yourself on who you want to bubble in on a ballot.

Meanwhile in these countries people are getting shot in the head from helicopters and getting beat with hammers for voicing a dissenting viewpoint.

Bah.

Jadespring Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:41:20am

re: #39 albusteve

the US Marines...but I get your point

The US Marines have the capability and equipment to fire back.

APox Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:42:21am

re: #36 Obdicut

People with little else to lose, and courage to spare.

Your own life is as valuable here as it is there to the person holding it.

More importantly, someone did ask a protester something along the lines of "Aren't you scared of being shot or dying in these protests?"

He responded (paraphrase) 'A little, but there would be no better place to die than fighting for your countries freedom'

Makes me think of how I'm sure many Americans felt when this country was being established.

albusteve Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:42:34am

re: #37 efuseakay

A big part of me kinda wishes the Middle East/etc. would just run out of oil already. Then there'd be no use for them (the thugs in charge). I have more confidence in Western society to survive without oil than I do in the world surviving with oil in the hands of all these assholes.

the US has done virtually nothing to wean our dependence on oil....when we don't buy it from them, we use other sources...we have not reached the tipping point yet

efuseakay Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:53:13am

re: #43 albusteve

the US has done virtually nothing to wean our dependence on oil...when we don't buy it from them, we use other sources...we have not reached the tipping point yet

I know... and I wish that wasn't the case.

Kronocide Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:57:47am

I'm developing a very cynical world view about geo petro politics in that region.

A 'western style' democracy would probably get too smart for their own good. Big business support with long term contracts could leverage support back at home: long term commitments to low pricing could leverage that big business support.

I hate to think that but positive results of western influence in the region seems marginal, at best. The only bright spot is support for Israel which is unrealted to oil.

Talking Point Detective Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:06:05am

re: #33 Killgore Trout

Yes, we do business with dictators in oil rich countries but if the oil and our support was such a factor then why are there so few democracies in the middle east without oil reserves? It's a problem with the region that goes beyond oil.

Not to say that there aren't other influences, but do you really think that the modern-day problems in the region are not inextricably linked to policies that were been linked to oil - policies from as far back as the 1930s?

moderatelyradicalliberal Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:10:47am

re: #15 Charles

I see that all the little wingnuts are passing around pictures of the horrible, horrible signs at the Wisconsin demonstrations, signs with awful offensive messages like "Fox Fabricated Nonsense, Inciting Ignorance."

Hate speech! They're persecuting Fox News!

I almost have to laugh at the predictability of it. They spun their idiot heads off to make excuses for the thousands and thousands of signs at Tea Parties advocating racism, violence, conspiracy theories, and worse, but now that they've found a few offensive signs in Wisconsin they're screaming like babies.

Speaking of Wisconsin, here's some solidarity from Egypt.

[Link: www.alternet.org...]

albusteve Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:12:39am

re: #46 Talking Point Detective

Not to say that there aren't other influences, but do you really think that the modern-day problems in the region are not inextricably linked to policies that were been linked to oil - policies from as far back as the 1930s?

the post says nothing of the sort...reread it

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:14:15am

re: #26 Tumulus11

. This is not Tahrir Square. Libya is in bloody rebellion.
The 'Islamic Emirate of Barqa' has seized a port in Derna, threatening to kill hostages.

1. What the hell is the 'the Islamic Emirate of Barqa'? Just a bunch of nuts taking advantage of the moment?

2. Note to those here who were asking why the Iraqi people couldn't just rise up and overthrow Saddam like the Egyptians did Mubarak, this. This is why. And I say this as someone who was never more than a very tepid supporter of the Iraq War.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:15:11am

re: #32 Idle Drifter

Gaddafi's throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the protesters.

SOB's kitchen sink is probably made of solid gold. It could kill a few protesters, but the guy who made it said he was never coming back to Libya, ever.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:16:25am

re: #41 Jadespring

The US Marines have the capability and equipment to fire back.

And are, frankly, nuts. In a good way.

Tumulus11 Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:18:53am

49 SanFranciscoZionist
Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:14:15am

. Al Qaeda in Libya.

'The group calls itself the 'Islamic Emirate of Barqa' after the ancient name of a region of northwest Libya, and the official said its leadership is made up of former al-Qaeda fighters previously released from jail.

The official said the same group was responsible for the hanging of two policemen in Al-Baida on Friday that was reported in Oea newspaper.'
//AFP

Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:19:23am

re: #46 Talking Point Detective

Not to say that there aren't other influences, but do you really think that the modern-day problems in the region are not inextricably linked to policies that were been linked to oil - policies from as far back as the 1930s?

The actors might be different but the plot would be essentially the same. Without oil the Middle east would be a little more like subsaharan Africa. Dictatorships, ethnic and religious conflicts, poverty. The key difference is we wouldn't care as much about instability in the region because they wouldn't be economically important enough.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:20:54am

re: #52 Tumulus11

49 SanFranciscoZionist
Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:14:15am

. Al Qaeda in Libya.

Oh, JOY.

Talking Point Detective Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:21:30am

re: #48 albusteve

the post says nothing of the sort...reread it

As I read it, the post was minimizing the influence of oil and our support or the lack thereof on problems in the region. There are multiple influences, but IMO, it would be hard to overstate the influence of oil and our policies (and British policies).

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:22:03am

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Prior to the discovery of oil, the Saudi royal family extorted large amounts of money from those making the pilgrimage to Mecca.

I think a lot of people don't realize that Western Europe and the US are the exception, not the rule, to the outcomes of nations.

Shiplord Kirel Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:22:53am

re: #46 Talking Point Detective

Not to say that there aren't other influences, but do you really think that the modern-day problems in the region are not inextricably linked to policies that were been linked to oil - policies from as far back as the 1930s?

Indeed.
Oil: Modern War God Threatens the World (Popular Mechanix February 1936)

The article is about the Italian invasion of Ethiopia and its implications for the Middle Eastern oil supply.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:25:24am

re: #55 Talking Point Detective

As I read it, the post was minimizing the influence of oil and our support or the lack thereof on problems in the region. There are multiple influences, but IMO, it would be hard to overstate the influence of oil and our policies (and British policies).

It would be very easy to overstate that influence, if you're asking historical questions. The Ottoman empire didn't exactly place the region very well to enter the 20th century.

albusteve Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:27:05am

re: #57 Shiplord Kirel

Indeed.
Oil: Modern War God Threatens the World (Popular Mechanix February 1936)

The article is about the Italian invasion of Ethiopia and its implications for the Middle Eastern oil supply.

Moose was a lover, not a fighter....he got all upside down about it

Talking Point Detective Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:27:34am

re: #53 Killgore Trout

The actors might be different but the plot would be essentially the same. Without oil the Middle east would be a little more like subsaharan Africa. Dictatorships, ethnic and religious conflicts, poverty. The key difference is we wouldn't care as much about instability in the region because they wouldn't be economically important enough.

Maybe. Then again, it's hard to say just what might have been different had we not intervened for the purpose of controlling the oil in Iran. Particularly if you believe in the "shining example" rationale for invading Iraq. I'm not sure that the ME with its history prior to the discover or oil there is really a valid direct comparison to sub-Saharan Africa with its history.

Talking Point Detective Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:29:42am

re: #56 Obdicut

Prior to the discovery of oil, the Saudi royal family extorted large amounts of money from those making the pilgrimage to Mecca.

I think a lot of people don't realize that Western Europe and the US are the exception, not the rule, to the outcomes of nations.

No doubt, the imperialistic policies of Western Europe and the US's foreign policies have had an influence on the outcomes of other nations, and not all of it has been positive.

calochortus Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:30:27am

re: #33 Killgore Trout

Yes, we do business with dictators in oil rich countries but if the oil and our support was such a factor then why are there so few democracies in the middle east without oil reserves? It's a problem with the region that goes beyond oil.

Sorry to post and run before, but the sun was shining, the husband was going for a walk-I couldn't resist.

Anyway, I think there are a lot of reasons for a shortage of democracies in the Middle East, but we haven't helped much, nor did the British.

Talking Point Detective Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:33:14am

re: #58 Obdicut

It would be very easy to overstate that influence, if you're asking historical questions. The Ottoman empire didn't exactly place the region very well to enter the 20th century.

I'm not only asking historical questions, although they certainly are relevant. I'm speculating about whether or not oil and our (or western) policies have influenced the current day situation.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:33:44am

re: #61 Talking Point Detective

No doubt, the imperialistic policies of Western Europe and the US's foreign policies have had an influence on the outcomes of other nations, and not all of it has been positive.

No, that's not what I meant. I meant that, in a weird way, most people today seem to have a Marxist view of history, except instead of seeing Communism as the inevitable end-state that any nation progresses towards, they see Western Democracy as the inevitable end state, the position that best resolves everything, and that people will inevitably seek out.

They don't give enough credit to the individuals who worked to bring it about, or the culture they brought about.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:35:08am

re: #63 Talking Point Detective

I'm not only asking historical questions, although they certainly are relevant. I'm speculating about whether or not oil and our (or western) policies have influenced the current day situation.

Well, of course they have.

But without oil, the area would not necessarily be in better shape. Just different. Impossible to know.

We certainly need to do a better job of not supporting brutal dictators, and the main way to do that is to get off oil.

recusancy Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:36:39am

re: #64 Obdicut

No, that's not what I meant. I meant that, in a weird way, most people today seem to have a Marxist view of history, except instead of seeing Communism as the inevitable end-state that any nation progresses towards, they see Western Democracy as the inevitable end state, the position that best resolves everything, and that people will inevitably seek out.

They don't give enough credit to the individuals who worked to bring it about, or the culture they brought about.

And I think many don't give enough credit to Arabs. There's a soft bigotry of low expectations for them.

Talking Point Detective Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:40:13am

re: #58 Obdicut

It would be very easy to overstate that influence, if you're asking historical questions. The Ottoman empire didn't exactly place the region very well to enter the 20th century.

Consider, for example, how the ME might be different if we hadn't intervened to prevent Communist influence in the region - Iraq being a good example. Needless to say, our intervention was not only driven by ideological opposition to the oppressive nature of the Soviet Union. Oil may have had a tad to do with it.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:40:52am

re: #66 recusancy

And I think many don't give enough credit to Arabs. There's a soft bigotry of low expectations for them.

I agree. However, it's not low expectations to think that someone who's grown up in a theocratic environment and is illiterate is unlikely to accept Jeffersonian Democracy spontaneously.

Ideas matter. Education matters. Exposure to ideas matters. Individuals matter. Leaders matter.

Its kind of like civil rights in this country. The Civil Rights movement had great leaders, spreading great ideas, empowering people, organizing them. It didn't happen spontaneously.

calochortus Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:41:47am

re: #66 recusancy

When we invaded Iraq I actually heard someone talk about us bringing democracy to them in terms of children learning, falling sometimes and scraping their knees... In view of the fact there apparently is an Arab saying that a proud person "walks like a Bagdadi" the Iraqis may not have found this an acceptable view of their society.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:42:23am

re: #67 Talking Point Detective

I can consider it all I like, but it's not going to bring me any closer to understanding how the ME might actually be different if we hadn't. It's just speculation.

It was and is still ethically wrong of us to exploit other countries for national resources and to support dictators for business reasons. Doesn't mean that things would automatically be better if we hadn't.

They probably wouldn't hate the West as much, in general, though.

recusancy Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:44:51am

re: #68 Obdicut

I agree. However, it's not low expectations to think that someone who's grown up in a theocratic environment and is illiterate is unlikely to accept Jeffersonian Democracy spontaneously.

Ideas matter. Education matters. Exposure to ideas matters. Individuals matter. Leaders matter.

Its kind of like civil rights in this country. The Civil Rights movement had great leaders, spreading great ideas, empowering people, organizing them. It didn't happen spontaneously.

Correct. The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice. I'm not saying it's going to happen over night or even this decade, but the longer we meddle the longer that arc will be and the more our bigoted/ignorant stereotypes will be reinforced.

Talking Point Detective Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:44:59am

re: #64 Obdicut

No, that's not what I meant. I meant that, in a weird way, most people today seem to have a Marxist view of history, except instead of seeing Communism as the inevitable end-state that any nation progresses towards, they see Western Democracy as the inevitable end state, the position that best resolves everything, and that people will inevitably seek out.

They don't give enough credit to the individuals who worked to bring it about, or the culture they brought about.

It's an interesting (although basically academic) question: whether or not there is some naturally "evolutionary" nature about a shift towards democracy baring external intervention. I'm not one who generally believes that there is any type of evolutionary direction, societally - but there does seem to me to be a basic logic of power, that eventually there is something unsustainable about disproportionate power held by a tiny minority if that minority is oppressive in nature. Of course, that trend, if there is one, has been thousands of years in the making, but there has basically been a large growth in the number of democratic countries in the last 60 years or so.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:46:02am

re: #72 Talking Point Detective

there has basically been a large growth in the number of democratic countries in the last 60 years or so.

Really? Where?

Talking Point Detective Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:47:56am

re: #70 Obdicut

I can consider it all I like, but it's not going to bring me any closer to understanding how the ME might actually be different if we hadn't. It's just speculation.

It was and is still ethically wrong of us to exploit other countries for national resources and to support dictators for business reasons. Doesn't mean that things would automatically be better if we hadn't.

They probably wouldn't hate the West as much, in general, though.

I'm not suggesting that it would automatically have been better. I'm saying that it is a bit facile to conclude with any certainty that the ME would be identical to sub-Saharan Africa had we, or oil politics, not influenced the region.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:48:54am

re: #74 Talking Point Detective

I'm saying that it is a bit facile to conclude with any certainty that the ME would be identical to sub-Saharan Africa had we, or oil politics, not influenced the region.

That's great. Since no one made that claim, why are you attacking it?

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:49:15am

Apropos:

[Link: amultiverse.com...]

Talking Point Detective Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:49:54am

re: #73 Obdicut

Really? Where?

Without a deep analysis of the definition of terms - from Wikipedia:

According to Freedom House, in 2007 there were 123 electoral democracies (up from 40 in 1972)

Talking Point Detective Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:53:37am

re: #75 Obdicut

That's great. Since no one made that claim, why are you attacking it?

Ok, he said it would be "a little more like" subSaharan Africa. Point taken.

But he seemed to be driving towards a minimization of the influence of oil and/or US/western policy.

You know, I think we're reaching the point where I'm losing interest in this discussion. Catch you on another thread.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:57:07am

re: #77 Talking Point Detective

Ah, I see, electoral democracies regardless of corruption.

I think most of that is attributable to the fall of the Soviet Union-- and some countries subdividing, as well.

Here's there full report, for a little bit more nuanced of a view.

[Link: www.freedomhouse.org...]

Definitely true that the number of free countries appears to be on the rise. That's heartening.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 11:57:39am

re: #78 Talking Point Detective

Ok, he said it would be "a little more like" subSaharan Africa. Point taken.

But he seemed to be driving towards a minimization of the influence of oil and/or US/western policy.

Yeah, people often seem to be driving towards things they're not when you rewrite words for them in order to make your argument.

Why do you do that? It's really shitty of you.

SpaceJesus Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:02:38pm

Somebody clone Rommel, then send him back to North Africa with some tanks to help the protestors

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:03:08pm

re: #81 SpaceJesus

Somebody clone Rommel, then send him back to North Africa with some tanks to help the protestors

You know I love you, SJ, but if zombie Nazis are our only hope, it may be too late.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:04:09pm

re: #82 SanFranciscoZionist

Rommel wasn't very Nazi. Clone him, raise him in the US Marines, and I bet he'd be a fine 'merican.

yasharki Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:05:33pm

Struck on the head with an AA missile? Are they using missiles as clubs now?

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:05:49pm

re: #83 Obdicut

Rommel wasn't very Nazi. Clone him, raise him in the US Marines, and I bet he'd be a fine 'merican.

All right. I'm in. Do we have enough time for this project, though?

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:05:58pm

re: #83 Obdicut

Clone him, raise him in the US Marines, and I bet he'd be a fine 'merican.

Same is true of Hitler. (Well, maybe not the Marines in his case ;). Or of anyone.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:07:46pm

re: #86 Sergey Romanov

Same is true of Hitler. (Well, maybe not the Marines in his case ;). Or of anyone.

Heh. Well, what I mean is that there is good reason to believe that Rommel disobeyed orders related to killing civilians, Jews, POWs, etc, and, being that he was a member of Nazi Germany at that time, that's special.

Am I wrong on that one, by the way? About him being a humane dude?

ProGunLiberal Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:10:22pm

re: #87 Obdicut

I think your correct on that. Certainly, he is part of the reason that the Holocaust didn't really affect North Africa.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:12:44pm

re: #87 Obdicut

Heh. Well, what I mean is that there is good reason to believe that Rommel disobeyed orders related to killing civilians, Jews, POWs, etc, and, being that he was a member of Nazi Germany at that time, that's special.

Am I wrong on that one, by the way? About him being a humane dude?

I really dunno much about Rommel. However, he was somewhat involved with the Einsatzgruppe Aegypten, which would murder Jews in Palestine if the Nazis got to do it.

See [Link: www1.yadvashem.org...]

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:18:54pm

re: #89 Sergey Romanov

I'm glad he never broke through. I was going off of his refusal to deport French Jews, several letters he wrote protesting treatment of jews, and notes from one of his assistants that he refused to execute British commandos or interview civilians to find out who was Jewish.

But yeah, no matter what he personally felt, he was still fighting for a genocidal state. I'm not celebrating him, just saying that he didn't seem to have a natural drive towards evil.

ProGunLiberal Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:21:07pm

re: #89 Sergey Romanov

Didn't know that. I, like Obdicut, went off of the various things I heard about him.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:24:48pm

re: #90 Obdicut

Well, maybe he was just squeamish like Wilhelm Kube, who also did not want to kill various group of Jews (until he did kill them). It's hard for me to see how he could not have known about the purpose of EK Aegypten, and if he did, it could be that he hoped that the SS would do the dirty job instead of Wehrmacht.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:25:12pm

re: #91 ProLifeLiberal

Didn't know that. I, like Obdicut, went off of the various things I heard about him.

I hadn't ever thought of what the actual consequences of him breaking through to Palestine would have been.

I seriously almost blacked out for a second thinking about it.

A fate well avoided.

I take back anything bad I ever said about Monty.

Obdicut Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:26:15pm

re: #92 Sergey Romanov

Or maybe he didn't have the same scruples towards Levantine Jews as he did towards European Jews.

I'll have to reread that book by his subordinate, if I can remember what the hell it was.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:31:02pm

re: #94 Obdicut

Well, in any case commanders couldn't have been in the dark about the purpose of EGs/EKs attached to their armies. And given that it was Walter Rauff who was to head EK Aegypten, the same Rauff who took part in development of the gas vans, it's improbable that he wouldn't inform Rommel about his mission.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Feb 20, 2011 12:37:12pm

re: #95 Sergey Romanov

And tying it to the discussion on one of the recent threads, Rauff ran away to Chile, where he was shielded until his death by Pinochet's regime.

abolitionist Sun, Feb 20, 2011 3:49:52pm

Listed under related articles,
YouTube footage of Libya crackdown 19 Feb 2011

po8crg Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:08:28am

re: #73 Obdicut

Really? Where?

In the last 60 years, there have been lots of new democracies.

Europe: Portugal (1974), Greece (1975), Spain (1978), Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, East Germany, Bulgaria (1989), Slovenia (1991), Romania (1996), Croatia (1999), Serbia (2000), Ukraine (2005), Montenegro (2006). Bosnia and Macedonia are hard to pick a date for, but somewhere around 2000 for each. Kosovo and Albania are trying to clear up their corruption and get effective rule of law, but are both doing better than they were.

Outside Europe, South Africa in 1994, and some of the other sub-Saharan African countries are starting to have real multi-party elections. Kenya's particularly notable for a sitting President losing and then stepping down and handing power over peacefully to his opponent (in 2002), just about the first time that ever happened in Africa.

South America has a lot more democracies than it used to - Chile, Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay were all military dictatorships in the 1970s; they're all democracies now.

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