Tea Partiers Planning to Infiltrate Wisconsin Protests

Tea Party racist openly plans sleazy tricks
Wingnuts • Views: 29,871

Remember radio host and Tea Party Express chairman Mark Williams, and his astoundingly racist “letter to Abe Lincoln” from “the coloreds?”

Well, Williams has a new idea. Now he’s going to infiltrate pro-union protests pretending to be a supporter, then try to get in front of cameras and make outrageous statements to discredit the demonstrators. And with that toxic mix of vitriol, low cunning, and pure stupidity for which he’s infamous, he posted his plans on his website and invited others to do the same thing: FIGHT THE SEIU WITH TACTIC THEY USE AGAINST US – THIS WEEK! | Mark Williams News & Commentary.

http://action.seiu.org/page/s/solidarityaction

That link will take you to an SEIU page where you can sign up as an “organizer” for one of their upcoming major rallies to support the union goons in Wisconsin.

Here is what I am doing in Sacramento, where they are holding a 5:30 PM event this coming Tuesday:  (1) I signed up as an organizer (2) with any luck they will contact me and I will have an “in”  (3) in or not I will be there and am asking as many other people as can get there to come with, all of us in SEIU shirts (those who don’t have them we can possibly buy some from vendors likely to be there)  (4) we are going to target the many TV cameras and reporters looking for comments from the members there  (5) we will approach the cameras to make good pictures… signs under our shirts that say things like “screw the taxpayer!”  and “you OWE me!” to be pulled out for the camera (timing is important because the signs will be taken away from us) (6) we will echo those slogans in angry sounding tones to the cameras and the reporters.  (7) if I do get the ‘in’ I am going to do my darnedest to get podium access and take the mic to do that rant from there…with any luck and if I can manage the moments to build up to it, I can probably get a cheer out of the crowd for something extreme.

WARNING: When around these union events do NOT instigate ANY physical confrontation, walk away from anyone who tries to start one with you. These people WILL have a mob mentality and ARE dangerous …

Several Tea Party chapters around the country are planning to join with me, if you are a member of one in your area please contact them for details.  If they are not participating get them to!

*****UPDATE:  IOWA, COLORADO, MASSACHUSETTS AND SEVERAL OTHER STATES HAVE CHECKED IN…. Tea Party Patriot groups and individuals are flooding me with emails vowing to participate and come up with their own creative ruses!   Several have also reminded me that we have a distinct advantage in that the SEIU primarily represents non-English speaking illegal aliens so we will be the ones whose comments will make air!!!!*****

******Help me keep this going!  I need to travel beyond Sacramento to the other SEIU rally cities and then Madison, and in short order!  Please contribute!!!  Click here for secure link*****

Chances are that because I am publishing this they’ll catch wind, but it is worth the chance if you take it upon yourself to act…there’s only one of me but there are millions of you and I know that you CAN do this!

Our goal is to make the gathering look as greedy and goonish as we know that it is, ding their credibility with the media and exploit the lazy reporters who just want dramatic shots and outrageous quotes for headlines.  Even if it becomes known that we are plants the quotes and pictures will linger as defacto truth.

What a sleazy creep.

Also see
Mark Williams: It’s Impossible for Tea Partiers to Be Racists Tea Party Leader Mark Williams: The NAACP is a ‘Vile Racist Group’ Tea Party Leader Mark Williams: Hoist With His Own Petard What Racism at the Tea Parties?

Jump to bottom

375 comments
1 HappyWarrior  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:10:34pm

Hmmm something tells me that Williams would be crying like the little baby of a man that he is if some liberal bragged about infiltrating the Tea Party. What a pathetic guy he is really. I hope his little Tea Party goes up in flames.

2 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:10:39pm

Well I guess they would be easy to identify not having a union card & all, no?

3 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:12:11pm

What a shithead...

4 webevintage  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:12:17pm

What the hell is the matter with these people?

5 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:12:26pm

What a brilliant plan! Bonus Derp for posting it publicly on the internet.

6 jamesfirecat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:13:28pm

" Even if it becomes known that we are plants the quotes and pictures will linger as defacto truth"

That last one seems to have been the GOPs strategy for much of the time since Obama was elected, it doesn't mater if it is true or not, just spread the meme....

7 Lidane  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:13:37pm

re: #4 webevintage

What the hell is the matter with these people?

They didn't outgrow the mean kid phase from middle/high school.

8 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:14:42pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

What a brilliant plan! Bonus Derp for posting it publicly on the internet.

I am starting to think that almost every action nowadays is for the sake of the internet... think about it.

9 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:15:22pm

Teabaggers repeat after me.........

"closed email list"

10 HappyWarrior  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:16:02pm

re: #6 jamesfirecat

" Even if it becomes known that we are plants the quotes and pictures will linger as defacto truth"

That last one seems to have been the GOPs strategy for much of the time since Obama was elected, it doesn't mater if it is true or not, just spread the meme...

Of course, it's a popular one popularized by Breitbart: "Ruin people becasue they're liberal."

11 nines09  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:16:09pm

Great idea. Post publicly that you plan to lie, cheat and steal. Why I'll bet they can even prove some of these protesters don't even own property and shouldn't be allowed to vote anyway! Nice party. Nice guy.Nice.

12 jamesfirecat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:18:07pm

By the way I know I created LOL-troll cats to get around this kind of thing, but just for reference, has there been any thread in the last few days that this guy wouldn't have been topical in?

13 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:18:14pm

re: #1 HappyWarrior

Hmmm something tells me that Williams would be crying like the little baby of a man that he is if some liberal bragged about infiltrating the Tea Party. What a pathetic guy he is really. I hope his little Tea Party goes up in flames.

I expect he thinks of himself as being so attacked and threatened by the liberals that nothing he could do would be improper. It's just defense of self and country.

14 albusteve  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:18:44pm

re: #8 brookly red

I am starting to think that almost every action nowadays is for the sake of the internet... think about it.

instant recognition....AmIdol politics

15 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:18:54pm

re: #2 brookly red

Well I guess they would be easy to identify not having a union card & all, no?

Unless there's a vote, I don't think they're checking cards at these things.

16 Kragar  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:20:15pm

I love how they take every paranoid conspiracy theory they've ever had and decided to use them as justification as paying them back.

17 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:20:47pm

re: #15 SanFranciscoZionist

Unless there's a vote, I don't think they're checking cards at these things.

yeah, I guess you are right , no way they could pass all those kids off as rank & file...

18 Big Joe Ghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:20:48pm

I'm pretty sure the right has been taken over by some sort of autonomous performance art experiment that has escaped into the wild and taken on a life of it's own.

19 HappyWarrior  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:21:25pm

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

I expect he thinks of himself as being so attacked and threatened by the liberals that nothing he could do would be improper. It's just defense of self and country.

Yep, sounds right to me.

20 researchok  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:22:11pm

None of this really surprises me.

Business as usual.

21 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:22:56pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

What a brilliant plan! Bonus Derp for posting it publicly on the internet.

I have nothing but the most vile contempt for people who attempt shenanigans without the slightest idea how to keep a fuckin' secret.

The first rule of Fight Club, etc. etc.

22 Lidane  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:23:47pm

re: #18 mracb

I'm pretty sure the right has been taken over by some sort of autonomous performance art experiment that has escaped into the wild and taken on a life of it's own.

Nah. It's just devolved since the black guy with the African name beat the old white guy to become POTUS. They've been headed in this direction for years, but 2008 punched the devolution of the modern American right forward by a few orders of magnitude.

23 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:24:58pm

You know, lying is really a sleazy thing to do.

Why don't you try going on air as yourself and explaining yourself lucidly? Without bolded text and sixteen exclamation points.

24 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:25:44pm

re: #23 EmmmieG

You know, lying is really a sleazy thing to do.

Why don't you try going on air as yourself and explaining yourself lucidly? Without bolded text and sixteen exclamation points.

One wonders what Christine O'Donnell would have to say about it all........

25 Lidane  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:26:45pm

re: #24 wozzablog

One wonders what Christine O'Donnell would have to say about it all...

She'd say that it was lying to stop the evil soshulist unions from having any rights, so therefore it's moral and totally justified. You know, because the Tea Party is doing it. IOKIYAR, after all.

26 Kragar  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:27:08pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

What a brilliant plan! Bonus Derp for posting it publicly on the internet.

First, we build a large wooden rabbit...

27 Amory Blaine  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:28:53pm

Teabag scum.

28 Big Joe Ghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:29:36pm

re: #25 Lidane

She'd say that it was lying to stop the evil soshulist unions from having any rights, so therefore it's moral and totally justified. You know, because the Tea Party is doing it. IOKIYAR, after all.

This was the girl who wouldn't lie to save a Jew from the Nazis.

/not a Godwin, really

29 Idle Drifter  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:29:59pm
Youtube Video
30 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:30:17pm

re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

First, we build a large wooden rabbit duck...

31 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:31:33pm
Several have also reminded me that we have a distinct advantage in that the SEIU primarily represents non-English speaking illegal aliens so we will be the ones whose comments will make air!

What an insane racist.

32 jamesfirecat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:31:52pm

re: #18 mracb

I'm pretty sure the right has been taken over by some sort of autonomous performance art experiment that has escaped into the wild and taken on a life of it's own.

And now.... the sound of one freakazoid bitiching....

33 jamesfirecat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:32:13pm

re: #30 brookly red

A badger, that's the ticket!

34 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:32:13pm

re: #30 brookly red

First, we build a large wooden rabbit duck...

thats a quackers suggestion.

35 Amory Blaine  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:32:16pm

re: #2 brookly red

Well I guess they would be easy to identify not having a union card & all, no?

Uh yeah because they're out there in 70,000 person crowds checking for IDs. I know it's an obsession for the republicans to check IDs, but this crowd isn't that group of selfish, unamerican rubes.

36 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:32:41pm

re: #34 wozzablog

thats a quackers suggestion.

Who do we send the bill?

37 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:33:54pm

re: #35 Amory Blaine

Uh yeah because they're out there in 70,000 person crowds checking for IDs. I know it's an obsession for the republicans to check IDs, but this crowd isn't that group of selfish, unamerican rubes.

*sigh* I don't think you are going to like the near future very much...

38 Jadespring  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:34:28pm

re: #35 Amory Blaine

Uh yeah because they're out there in 70,000 person crowds checking for IDs. I know it's an obsession for the republicans to check IDs, but this crowd isn't that group of selfish, unamerican rubes.

Well this and also not everyone protesting is necessarily a union members. Families, friends and heck I bet even one or two non-union people who support the cause.

39 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:34:30pm

re: #36 EmmmieG

Who do we send the bill?

to the taxpayers, same as it ever was.

40 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:34:33pm

re: #25 Lidane

She'd say that it was lying to stop the evil soshulist unions from having any rights, so therefore it's moral and totally justified. You know, because the Tea Party is doing it. IOKIYAR, after all.

Last night I found a Catholic blog whose sophisitcated writer showed 10-11 ways that Lila Rose's PP bullshit was immoral. Many of his commenters tried to find ways around that. Learned a new word, "consequentialism".

41 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:36:29pm

re: #39 brookly red

to the taxpayers, same as it ever was.

(That was a pun)

BTW, when noting the county of the Bronx, is it the Bronx, or is there another county I'm unaware of?

42 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:36:39pm

re: #40 Decatur Deb

Last night I found a Catholic blog whose sophisitcated writer showed 10-11 ways that Lila Rose's PP bullshit was immoral. Many of his commenters tried to find ways around that. Learned a new word, "C".

/smacks Deb's knuckles with ruler...

43 Amory Blaine  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:38:04pm

re: #37 brookly red

*sigh* I don't think you are going to like the near future very much...

Me and millions of others.

44 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:38:07pm

re: #41 EmmmieG

(That was a pun)

BTW, when noting the county of the Bronx, is it the Bronx, or is there another county I'm unaware of?

da Bronx is correct... it was at one time a private estate belonging to the Bronx family.

45 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:38:33pm

This has to be one the most sophomoric political movements in modern political history. Maybe it's a sign of the times. Maybe it's a certain demographic. They're typically white males over the age 40. And by "they" I'm thinking of the 3 most recent clowns that have surfaced over the situation in Wisconsin: Williams, Bretibart, and Hoft.

46 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:39:39pm

re: #44 brookly red

da Bronx is correct... it was at one time a private estate belonging to the Bronx family.

Thanks. Now indexing WWII draft registrations (for men that were too old to serve, but might have been seen as a reserve.)

47 Lidane  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:40:19pm

re: #45 Gus 802

This has to be one the most sophomoric political movements in modern political history. Maybe it's a sign of the times. .

It's the same rubes that fell for Perot's incoherent populist bullshit back in 1992, mixed with some overt racism and sexism, post-9/11 xenophobia, and even more ignorance because of the 24/7 idiocy of Fox News and AM talk radio.

48 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:40:35pm

re: #46 EmmmieG

Thanks. Now indexing WWII draft registrations (for men that were too old to serve, but might have been seen as a reserve.)

no it was long before that...

49 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:41:10pm

re: #23 EmmmieG

You know, lying is really a sleazy thing to do.

Why don't you try going on air as yourself and explaining yourself lucidly? Without bolded text and sixteen exclamation points.

Because they are not capable of defending their positions.

50 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:41:18pm

Mark Williams is competing with Dim Hoft for Most Moronic Winger Ever.

51 Amory Blaine  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:44:05pm

I'm trying out this Google Chrome beta 10 and man is it snappy.

52 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:49:24pm

The Republican Party and their right wing followers are diving into the gutter because their sole objective is regaining power. They'll say and do anything to make that happen.

We wonder how they can lie without a guilty conscience -- it's because they see themselves in an all-out war to preserve their privileged white lifestyles against the encroachment of the evil dusky hordes. You can see this attitude just reeking out of Williams' post.

And I strongly suspect this is one of the main reasons for the right's opposition to what's happening in Wisconsin.

53 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:50:10pm

re: #45 Gus 802

This has to be one the most sophomoric political movements in modern political history. Maybe it's a sign of the times. Maybe it's a certain demographic. They're typically white males over the age 40. And by "they" I'm thinking of the 3 most recent clowns that have surfaced over the situation in Wisconsin: Williams, Bretibart, and Hoft.

It's a midlife crisis turned into a political movement.

It's the political equivalent of a toupee, a red Miata, and an affair with a waitress.

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:50:49pm

re: #31 Obdicut

What an insane racist.

Yeah. The majority of SEIU members in Wisconsin don't speak English? I'd be surprised.

55 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:51:37pm

re: #53 Obdicut

It's a midlife crisis turned into a political movement.

It's the political equivalent of a toupee, a red Miata, and an affair with a waitress.

Theres a whole new meaning to "always tip your waitress"

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:52:04pm

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. The majority of SEIU members in Wisconsin don't speak English? I'd be surprised.

Even more so that most of them are illegal.

57 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:52:30pm

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. The majority of SEIU members in Wisconsin don't speak English? I'd be surprised.

cabezas del queso?

58 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:52:31pm

re: #45 Gus 802

This has to be one the most sophomoric political movements in modern political history. Maybe it's a sign of the times. Maybe it's a certain demographic. They're typically white males over the age 40. And by "they" I'm thinking of the 3 most recent clowns that have surfaced over the situation in Wisconsin: Williams, Bretibart, and Hoft.

I'm constantly amazed at how much the behavior of the right wing resembles the behavior of a spoiled child.

59 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:53:50pm

Williams could be hoist by his own petard yet again.
What happens when militant tea-partiers infiltrate the SEIU and find that everything they have heard from Williams, Limbaugh, etc. is complete horse manure?
Will we see a Damascus moment or do the tea partiers lack the self-respect to even care when they realize they've been had?

60 Big Joe Ghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:53:54pm

re: #58 Charles

I'm constantly amazed at how much the behavior of the right wing resembles the behavior of a spoiled child.

...and such a young child at that. Say 3-4?

61 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:53:55pm

I keep reading it: unreal. I'd never believe this if I didn't read it for myself.

This must be a false flag OP to give Comedy Central more material. There's no other possible explanation. This stuff is made for satire and mockery.

62 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:55:20pm

Looks like he closed down the comments: "Comments are disabled."

63 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:58:00pm

re: #60 mracb

...and such a young child at that. Say 3-4?

Would have to be the terrible 2s.

//

64 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:58:39pm

If the union members are 1/10th as thuggish as the TP insist, this is a good formula for a visit to the emergency room.

65 jaunte  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:59:03pm
Our goal is to make the gathering look
as greedy and goonish as we know that it is


Amazing.

66 Big Joe Ghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:59:31pm

re: #63 Gus 802

Would have to be the terrible 2s.

//

my kids were so awesome I really have little to go by, besides some others' kids.

67 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 5:59:49pm

Interesting. Funny...

[Link: yfrog.com...]

68 Amory Blaine  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:00:10pm

re: #58 Charles

I'm constantly amazed at how much the behavior of the right wing resembles the behavior of a spoiled child.

There are people in this state that make under 20,000 a year who will spit in your face how "Obama Care" has destroyed the country.

69 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:00:40pm

Headline with comment from prominent right wing site...
Words fail me!

The View from Wisconsin: 'Our Political Process
has been Stopped by a Mob'


Now We Know: A mob, ginned up, directed and paid for by
the President of the United States.

70 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:01:12pm

re: #68 Amory Blaine

There are people in this state that make under 20,000 a year (who will have had a tax cut) who will spit in your face how "Obama Care" has destroyed the country.

71 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:03:49pm

re: #69 Floral Giraffe

Headline with comment from prominent right wing site...
Words fail me!

The View from Wisconsin: 'Our Political Process
has been Stopped by a Mob'

Now We Know: A mob, ginned up, directed and paid for by
the President of the United States.

Which is a bunch of bologna. I can find just as much Republican influence regarding the opposition groups (i.e. the pro-Walker forces). Yesterday's little Tea Party demo was effectively a Republican op.

72 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:04:30pm

Shades of Sinclair Lewis: all that's missing is a Buzz Windrip.

73 jamesfirecat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:04:54pm

re: #55 wozzablog

Theres a whole new meaning to "always tip your waitress"


I believe its most commonly known as the "always tap your waitress" policy...

74 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:05:30pm

This was funny:

Tea Party = ACORN.

75 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:05:47pm

re: #69 Floral Giraffe

Did Obama order them pizza?

76 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:06:09pm

re: #74 BigPapa

This was funny:

Tea Party = ACORN.

minus the gubermint funding...

77 recusancy  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:06:35pm

Whole lot'a win here:

More than 400 amendments were filed Monday night. Among them were a proposal from Rep. Steve Womack, R-Ark., to eliminate funding for the president's Teleprompter and one from Rep. Randy Neugebauer, R-Texas, to strip funding for the alteration, repair or improvement of the executive residence of the White House and instead divert that amount to deficit reduction.
78 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:06:45pm

re: #75 Obdicut

Did Obama order them pizza?

what? who? where?

79 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:07:02pm

re: #74 BigPapa

This was funny:

Tea Party = ACORN.

Tea Party = Grass Roots = organising in communities......noooooOO!!!!!!

ACORN = soros! (big and evil)

80 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:07:12pm

re: #76 brookly red

minus the gubermint funding...

Minus tobacco money.

81 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:07:12pm

re: #75 Obdicut

Did Obama order them pizza?

I think he might have forgotten the anchovies, or, something!

82 Amory Blaine  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:07:14pm

re: #71 Gus 802

Which is a bunch of bologna. I can find just as much Republican influence regarding the opposition groups (i.e. the pro-Walker forces). Yesterday's little Tea Party demo was effectively a Republican op.

LOL no shit. Yeah, Breitbart just happened to be hanging around downtown Madison this weekend. He wanted to play beer pong with his bro's.

83 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:07:32pm

re: #76 brookly red

minus the gubermint funding...

So is ACORN.

84 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:07:59pm

re: #78 brookly red

what? who? where?

A lot of people have apparently ordered pizzas for the protesters.

So I was making fun of this idea that the protesters are 'funded' by Obama.

85 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:08:06pm

re: #81 Floral Giraffe

I think he might have forgotten the anchovies, or, something!

(deleted)

86 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:08:47pm

re: #79 wozzablog

Tea Party = Grass Roots = organising in communities...noooOO!!!

ACORN = soros! (big and evil)

The Tea Party is a grass roots movement and I'm Wendell Willkie!

//

87 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:09:44pm

"In a bold counterstroke, the SEIU is dressing its demonstration marshals in tricorn hats and revolutionary war uniforms to redirect their pale, old, hover-round bound members away from the cameras."

88 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:09:49pm

re: #86 Gus 802

The Tea Party is a grass roots movement and I'm Wendell Willkie!

//

I also have a bridge for sale. Couple actually.

89 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:10:17pm

re: #84 Obdicut

A lot of people have apparently ordered pizzas for the protesters.

So I was making fun of this idea that the protesters are 'funded' by Obama.

in the end it all comes down to pizza... told you so!

90 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:12:09pm

re: #88 Gus 802

I also have a bridge for sale. Couple actually.

oh, I guess that stimulus thing didn't work out so good...

how much for the statehouse?

91 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:12:19pm

re: #62 Gus 802

Looks like he closed down the comments: "Comments are disabled."

Looks like he had his "Oh shit!" moment, when he realized that people were watching...

92 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:13:23pm

re: #76 brookly red

minus the gubermint funding...

No, but the Tea Party has a massive propaganda arm called Fox News.

Not to mention ACORN actually helps poor people instead of attacks them.

Not to mention ACORN's total funding is a fucking pittance compared to all the free press the Tea Party has gotten from Fox News.

Not a very good contrast.

93 Amory Blaine  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:13:31pm

I wanted to sit in front of the capitol yesterday with a Lucy style booth passing out hot water. I wanted to have a sign that said:

"Weak Tea 5 cents. Non Negotiable"

Ran around putting out fires all day instead.

94 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:13:50pm

re: #85 brookly red

(deleted)

LOL! He forgot the pineapple!

95 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:14:03pm

re: #91 talon_262

Looks like he had his "Oh shit!" moment, when he realized that people were watching...

seems to be epidermic these days...

96 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:16:55pm

re: #95 brookly red

seems to be epiDERPmic these days...

FTFY ;-P

97 Bob Levin  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:17:58pm

From the article:

WARNING: When around these union events do NOT instigate ANY physical confrontation, walk away from anyone who tries to start one with you. These people WILL have a mob mentality and ARE dangerous …

This sentence is just BS. They are going to there to start a fight.

98 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:18:16pm

re: #96 talon_262

FTFY ;-P

shakes head, pops longneck...

99 rikzilla  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:20:18pm

"defacto truth"

What a concept! No wonder climate denial is such a walk in the park for them, they simply are not interested in objective reality...

100 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:21:20pm

re: #97 Bob Levin

From the article:

This sentence is just BS. They are going to there to start a fight.

They're going there to make a scene. They hope to start shit and get more camera time. It's a complete farce.

101 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:24:08pm

re: #3 talon_262

What a shithead...

Like most Mobys, Mark Williams is a dick.

102 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:24:57pm

US entering direct talks with Taliban...
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

"We are launching a diplomatic surge to move this conflict toward a political outcome that shatters the alliance between the Taliban and al Qaeda, ends the insurgency and helps produce a stable Afghanistan and a peaceful region," Clinton said.

pardon my skepticism...

103 albusteve  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:26:36pm

the question for me is, is the GOP steaming into a long term soire or can we hope that they burn out from their long over reach...and how gullible is half of America, or is it even half?....what are the long term penalties involved?....how crazy can the socons and insecure power mongers get?....fear is a powerful buzz

104 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:27:04pm

re: #97 Bob Levin

From the article:

This sentence is just BS. They are going to there to start a fight.

It's not entirely BS. Some unions can be quite dangerous in 'labor crisis' situations, the Teamsters being the most famous example. But even if Williams means what he says about avoiding a physical fight, his entire idea is dishonest and dishonorable.

105 Amory Blaine  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:28:04pm

re: #53 Obdicut

It's a midlife crisis turned into a political movement.

It's the political equivalent of a toupee, a red Miata, and an affair with a waitress.

The American Dream?
///

106 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:28:15pm

re: #92 BigPapa


Not to mention ACORN actually helps poor people instead of attacks them.

I can't in good conscience let you get away with that - they don't "help poor people", they only disenfranchise rich white people.

(i really shouldn't have to................/)

107 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:28:18pm

re: #102 brookly red

From the link...

The United States has entered into direct talks with leaders of the Taliban in Afghanistan, but contacts are exploratory and not yet a peace negotiation, according to an article on Saturday in The New Yorker magazine.


Sure why not? Exploring their willingness to negotiate and how much they'll give in concession could indicate their morale and willingness to continue fighting.

108 Bob Levin  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:28:41pm

re: #100 BigPapa

When this first started I said that unions have been here before, they know what to do. The Tea Party doesn't understand that they are fighting with people whose first concern is their mortgage. I suspect they might learn what that's like.

109 albusteve  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:29:08pm

re: #102 brookly red

US entering direct talks with Taliban...
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

"We are launching a diplomatic surge to move this conflict toward a political outcome that shatters the alliance between the Taliban and al Qaeda, ends the insurgency and helps produce a stable Afghanistan and a peaceful region," Clinton said.

pardon my skepticism...

good god, what tripe...this admin is dumber than a box of rocks....meanwhile people are dying and we cut deals with their killers....how much will this harebrained bullshit cost?

110 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:30:09pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

It's not entirely BS. Some unions can be quite dangerous in 'labor crisis' situations, the Teamsters being the most famous example. But even if Williams means what he says about avoiding a physical fight, his entire idea is dishonest and dishonorable.

Yes. The Teamsters can be sons of bitches--they broke our line on the 101 day GE strike. (My wife was a Teamster, selling books at Doubleday.)

111 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:30:55pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

From the link...


Sure why not? Exploring their willingness to negotiate and how much they'll give in concession could indicate their morale and willingness to continue fighting.

of course you could be right but I am skeptical about concessions made by people who do suicide bombings... but hey that is just me.

112 Kronocide  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:31:06pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

It's not entirely BS. Some unions can be quite dangerous in 'labor crisis' situations, the Teamsters being the most famous example. But even if Williams means what he says about avoiding a physical fight, his entire idea is dishonest and dishonorable.

It's outright dangerous. William's best chance for gain is to take advantage of emotionally charged situations. He's too lazy to engage in the mundane task of sustaining modulated, measured, and fundamentally logical rhetoric. And, he's probably too stupid as well.

113 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:31:16pm

re: #109 albusteve

good god, what tripe...this admin is dumber than a box of rocks...meanwhile people are dying and we cut deals with their killers...how much will this harebrained bullshit cost?

You do realise that the allied troops on the ground aren't laying down their arms for the duration of these talks.........

If we can get Afghanistan away from a narco-economy and turn the taliban against the foreign fighters it has to be worth a try.

114 albusteve  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:32:04pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

From the link...


Sure why not? Exploring their willingness to negotiate and how much they'll give in concession could indicate their morale and willingness to continue fighting.

and you would trust these people?...c'mon KT, the Talis are natural born killers that live in the moment....they hate our guts with a passion, why believe them?

115 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:32:58pm

re: #114 albusteve

and you would trust these people?...c'mon KT, the Talis are natural born killers that live in the moment...they hate our guts with a passion, why believe them?

We talked to the VC and NVA--they weren't Amish.

116 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:33:08pm

re: #113 wozzablog

You do realise that the allied troops on the ground aren't laying down their arms for the duration of these talks...

If we can get Afghanistan away from a narco-economy and turn the taliban against the foreign fighters it has to be worth a try.

you mean like we did in Mexico?

117 Bob Levin  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:33:22pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

He's just using that sentence for cover. "We said there shouldn't be violence, we didn't start it." But they are going to start it. And yeah, they're (unions) can be dangerous, they're fighting for their mortgages. They'd better be dangerous.

118 albusteve  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:34:19pm

re: #113 wozzablog

You do realise that the allied troops on the ground aren't laying down their arms for the duration of these talks...

If we can get Afghanistan away from a narco-economy and turn the taliban against the foreign fighters it has to be worth a try.

how are we gonna get them away from their narco economy?...voodo?
Agent Orange?....not gonna happen unless we nuke the poppies and buy the difference.....every year that is, for eternity?

119 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:34:42pm

re: #112 BigPapa

It's outright dangerous. William's best chance for gain is to take advantage of emotionally charged situations. He's too lazy to engage in the mundane task of sustaining modulated, measured, and fundamentally logical rhetoric. And, he's probably too stupid as well.

Well, I can agree with that. I could also see him, or a unionist creating a confrontation to blame the other side, though i think the Tea Party would be more likely to do that. But this does mean that any confrontation or "attack" seen in Madison will need to be scrutinized very closely. Stakes are high, and in such times deceit is often to be found.

120 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:34:51pm

re: #89 brookly red

There's pie?

121 Big Joe Ghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:35:01pm

re: #118 albusteve

how are we gonna get them away from their narco economy?...voodo?
Agent Orange?...not gonna happen unless we nuke the poppies and buy the difference...every year that is, for eternity?

it is probably cheaper.

122 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:36:07pm

re: #120 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There's pie?

you need to be faster than that...

123 Bob Levin  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:36:17pm

re: #110 Decatur Deb

What was that about? Did they want control of the union? How did it work out that they were fighting you?

124 Stanghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:36:38pm

Did you see this speech on the Wisconsin floor by Rep. Gordon Hintz?

Holy hell, it's awesome. And the Gov. of Wisconsin and Club for Growth are slime.

Youtube Video
125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:36:38pm

re: #122 brookly red

Kiss my fat ass. I just got here.

126 albusteve  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:36:43pm

re: #115 Decatur Deb

We talked to the VC and NVA--they weren't Amish.

no, we bombed the shit out of Hanoi and forced them to save their country...not pretty but that's what went down, then we talked....they were shot out at that point

127 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:37:32pm

re: #109 albusteve

Hey!
Hope you are doing well!

128 webevintage  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:37:44pm

re: #108 Bob Levin

When this first started I said that unions have been here before, they know what to do. The Tea Party doesn't understand that they are fighting with people whose first concern is their mortgage. I suspect they might learn what that's like.

Nonononono they are all thugs, thugs I tell you....
/

129 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:37:54pm

re: #125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Kiss my fat ass. I just got here.

but we finished the pies... your fat ass will need to call out for delivery.

130 albusteve  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:38:08pm

re: #121 mracb

it is probably cheaper.

fuck the Afghanis...get out of there and let them have whatever comes about

131 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:38:15pm

re: #113 wozzablog

You do realise that the allied troops on the ground aren't laying down their arms for the duration of these talks...

If we can get Afghanistan away from a narco-economy and turn the taliban against the foreign fighters it has to be worth a try.

It's either that or we continue to spend nearly 3.8 billion dollars a month to kill 4 Taliban or AQ insurgents a month. Deadline is now 2014. By then it will be close to 13 years we've been throwing money at Afghanistan and fighting an ever elusive enemy. Have the talks and see where it goes.

132 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:38:23pm

re: #116 brookly red

you mean like we did in Mexico?

One is hoping there are a lot of lessons learned from that.

In Afghanistan Poppies are a lively hood for thousands- if we can institute something that creates more money for the poppy farmers than opiates - they will switch.

133 albusteve  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:38:50pm

re: #127 Floral Giraffe

Hey!
Hope you are doing well!

one can hope!
thanks

134 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:39:06pm

re: #123 Bob Levin

What was that about? Did they want control of the union? How did it work out that they were fighting you?

The Teamsters were under Hoffa at the time--they bolted the coalition of several other unions and signed a sweet sister contract. We knew we had won when a union railroad crew stopped their train at the railroad gate and walked away.

135 austin_blue  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:40:18pm

re: #58 Charles

I'm constantly amazed at how much the behavior of the right wing resembles the behavior of a spoiled child.

Or Fifth Columnists.

136 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:40:44pm

re: #126 albusteve

no, we bombed the shit out of Hanoi and forced them to save their country...not pretty but that's what went down, then we talked...they were shot out at that point

I think we've bombed about everything worth the ordnance in SWA. Talk is cheap.

137 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:41:03pm

Cost of War:

Taxpayers in State of Wisconsin will pay $1.7 billion for Proposed Afghanistan war spending for FY2011. For the same amount of money, the following could be provided:

* 1.3 million Children Receiving Low-Income Healthcare for One Year OR
* 27,358 Elementary School Teachers for One Year OR
* 37,703 Firefighters for One Year OR
* 245,320 Head Start Slots for Children for One Year OR
* 502,135 Households with Renewable Electricity - Solar Photovoltaic for One Year OR
* 1.3 million Households with Renewable Electricity-Wind Power for One Year OR
* 235,099 Military Veterans Receiving VA Medical Care for One Year OR
* 235,099 Military Veterans Receiving VA Medical Care for One Year OR
* 372,502 People Receiving Low-Income Healthcare for One Year OR
* 26,500 Police or Sheriff's Patrol Officers for One Year OR
* 205,929 Scholarships for University Students for One Year OR
* 308,338 Students receiving Pell Grants of $5550

138 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:41:10pm

re: #126 albusteve

no, we bombed the shit out of Hanoi and forced them to save their country...not pretty but that's what went down, then we talked...they were shot out at that point

But we'd been talking for years before Operation: Linebacker II was ordered. OLB2 was launched because they would not agree to an immediate release of POWs and were trying to gain additional advantage over the South. So Nixion order SAC to hammer them so hard they'd cave in. And they did cave.

139 Stanghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:41:21pm

acarvin Andy Carvin

My God, what is going on in Tripoli?

Youtube Video
#libya
140 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:41:32pm

re: #132 wozzablog

One is hoping there are a lot of lessons learned from that.

In Afghanistan Poppies are a lively hood for thousands- if we can institute something that creates more money for the poppy farmers than opiates - they will switch.

OK, like we did in Colombia?

141 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:42:52pm

re: #137 Gus 802

Cost of War:

It is what it is. We can't leave in defeat. Better a war lasting 30 years than that.

142 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:43:00pm

Their is no equivalent to Hanoi in AFPAK. There's barely anything to bomb unless you consider flattening small villages.

143 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:43:32pm

re: #118 albusteve

how are we gonna get them away from their narco economy?...voodo?
Agent Orange?...not gonna happen unless we nuke the poppies and buy the difference...every year that is, for eternity?

Cut off the drugs and you cut off funding and the power base for swathes of the bad guys.

I don't care how it's done. Smarter people than me are working on it - i don't have all the answers.

144 Bob Levin  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:43:32pm

re: #134 Decatur Deb

Ah. I understand. This is a little different.

145 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:44:17pm

This isn't about balancing a budget. This is a continuation of the 90 year old battle between unions and the gop.

A century ago the Republicans busted trusts and monopolies; now they bust unions. To some teabaggers, that's progress.

146 Stanghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:44:48pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. We can't leave in defeat. Better a war lasting 30 years than that.

Wha?

All America Fuck Yeah

147 recusancy  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:44:53pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. We can't leave in defeat. Better a war lasting 30 years than that.

Thank god you're not in charge.

148 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:45:03pm

re: #124 Stanley Sea

Did you see this speech on the Wisconsin floor by Rep. Gordon Hintz?

Holy hell, it's awesome. And the Gov. of Wisconsin and Club for Growth are slime.


[Video]

Damn straight. Lower than snakeshit.

149 Four More Tears  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:45:21pm

re: #146 Stanley Sea

Wha?

All America Fuck Yeah

Well spoken from someone not fighting in it, huh?

150 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:45:35pm

re: #140 brookly red

OK, like we did in Colombia?

Well, Columbia is different. The FARC has been cut way back, the country is much safer, and cocaine production is greatly reduced. But Columbia had Uribe, who worked to provide non-criminal opportunities for his countrymen, and kept corruption from strangling the resultant growth. Hamid Karzai is not half the the leader Uribe is.

151 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:45:45pm

re: #143 wozzablog

Cut off the drugs and you cut off funding and the power base for swathes of the bad guys.

I don't care how it's done. Smarter people than me are working on it - i don't have all the answers.

well we could start hanging people for possession, I am sure that would reduce the demand but it is kinda harsh.

152 Stanghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:45:50pm

re: #149 JasonA

Well spoken from someone not fighting in it, huh?

30 years, his kid will be. Ooops.

153 austin_blue  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:45:55pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. We can't leave in defeat. Better a war lasting 30 years than that.

Thirty years? Really, DF? Thirty years?

Volunteer! I had the honor of serving my country in the AF. You should volunteer your time for similar service.

154 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:45:59pm

re: #144 Bob Levin

Ah. I understand. This is a little different.

No, I mean they physically broke our line, as well. Drove the raw materials trucks into the plant. People were hurt, none killed.

155 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:46:07pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. We can't leave in defeat. Better a war lasting 30 years than that.

Right. 30 years. That's 30 X 12 X 3.8 billion or 1,368,000,000,000 dollars.

Not gonna happen. We can keep spending all of this money to get revenge for 911. It's over.

156 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:46:23pm

re: #130 albusteve

fuck the Afghanis...get out of there and let them have whatever comes about

We've only been there 10 years. Let's stay at least another decade, it's been such fun.

Hate to say it, but old Soviets are having a nice laugh at us right about now. We find ourselves in the same predicament in Afghanistan they did 30 years ago.

157 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:46:34pm

re: #153 austin_blue

Thirty years? Really, DF? Thirty years?

Volunteer! I had the honor of serving my country in the AF. You should volunteer your time for similar service.

Bring back the draft.

158 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:46:43pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. We can't leave in defeat. Better a war lasting 30 years than that.

lol

I only laugh because it masks the pain of reading things as dumb as this.

159 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:47:03pm

re: #146 Stanley Sea

Wha?

All America Fuck Yeah

No, it's my calculation that the cost of a perceived defeat would nullify any savings from withdrawal.

160 Four More Tears  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:47:34pm

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

No, it's my calculation that the cost of a perceived defeat would nullify any savings from withdrawal.

Defeat's already been perceived.

161 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:47:42pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. We can't leave in defeat. Better a war lasting 30 years than that.

We don't leave in defeat--we hold a big ceremony, fireworks, little girls with bouquets, local dignitaries. There's a "Mission Accomplished" sign around here somewhere.

162 recusancy  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:47:54pm

re: #135 austin_blue

Or Fifth Columnists.

Be careful with that term. I didn't much appreciate it being thrown at the left for being against the war.

163 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:47:54pm

NATO Airstrike Is Said to Kill Afghan Civilians

JALALABAD, Afghanistan — NATO airstrikes killed at least 35 people in a remote mountainous area of eastern Afghanistan last week in an attack that NATO officers say was a successful mission against Taliban insurgents, but that Afghan officials have condemned as causing mass civilian casualties...

164 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:48:06pm

re: #131 Gus 802

It's either that or we continue to spend nearly 3.8 billion dollars a month to kill 4 Taliban or AQ insurgents a month. Deadline is now 2014. By then it will be close to 13 years we've been throwing money at Afghanistan and fighting an ever elusive enemy. Have the talks and see where it goes.

I dunno. I think that partnering with misogynist, religiously fanatic, terrorists has not really worked out to well for us in the past.

I like the way that the military has adopted strategy to begin listening to the tribal leaders and learning how not to alienate the local Afghanis with arrogance and insensitivity, so I'm generally inclined to give the newer counter-insurgency tactics the benefit of the doubt. But partnering with the Taliban may be where I draw the line. As far as I'm concerned, eliminating the Taliban is really the only legitimate reason for us to be in Afghanistan.

165 austin_blue  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:48:08pm

re: #157 Gus 802

Bring back the draft.

Well, yes, that would bring the cost of war, on a visceral level, to those supporting it.

166 Stanghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:48:17pm

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

No, it's my calculation that the cost of a perceived defeat would nullify any savings from withdrawal.

They are fucking tribes. The only perceived defeat is with the Patriots For America Fuck Yeah.

167 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:48:21pm

re: #152 Stanley Sea

30 years, his kid will be. Ooops.

I have no children, nor will I ever have any.

168 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:48:29pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. We can't leave in defeat. Better a war lasting 30 years than that.

How long is too long?

I'm afraid this 30 Years War wouldn't turn out any better than the one in the 17th century.

169 Targetpractice  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:48:38pm

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

No, it's my calculation that the cost of a perceived defeat would nullify any savings from withdrawal.

"Perceived defeat"? So it's better that we continue to feed men and resources into this meat grinder, so long as we're not "defeated"?

170 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:48:48pm

re: #140 brookly red

OK, like we did in Colombia?

Afghanistan is the worlds biggest producer - getting it down to Colombian levels would be great.

There have been huge failures in Colombia - for sure, as long as the same mistakes aren't made again and we can do the work with the boots on the ground to make some sort of difference to the farmers, i think we've got a sot at getting production down.

I don't believe for a second that production in Afghanistan will ever be eradicated - i want to make that clear though.

171 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:49:30pm

re: #164 Talking Point Detective

I dunno. I think that partnering with misogynist, religiously fanatic, terrorists has not really worked out to well for us in the past.

I like the way that the military has adopted strategy to begin listening to the tribal leaders and learning how not to alienate the local Afghanis with arrogance and insensitivity, so I'm generally inclined to give the newer counter-insurgency tactics the benefit of the doubt. But partnering with the Taliban may be where I draw the line. As far as I'm concerned, eliminating the Taliban is really the only legitimate reason for us to be in Afghanistan.

Sounds like Pakistan.

We won't be able to eliminate the Taliban or AQ. Won't happen. Ever. This mission will fail.

172 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:49:53pm

re: #157 Gus 802

Bring back the draft.

Oh, you'd like that. That would increase casualties greatly. We left the draft behind for a very good reason, and as a result we have much more effective army.

173 austin_blue  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:49:54pm

re: #162 recusancy

Be careful with that term. I didn't much appreciate it being thrown at the left for being against the war.

Well, I'm a Leftie and a military vet. When in doubt, click the nick.

174 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:50:28pm

re: #160 JasonA

Defeat's already been perceived.

well more like scheduled...

175 Stanghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:50:40pm

re: #172 Dark_Falcon

Oh, you'd like that. That would increase casualties greatly. We left the draft behind for a very good reason, and as a result we have much more effective army.

omg.

176 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:50:50pm

re: #171 Gus 802

Sounds like Pakistan.

We won't be able to eliminate the Taliban or AQ. Won't happen. Ever. This mission will fail.

Not if we have enough bouquets.

177 Bob Levin  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:50:57pm

re: #154 Decatur Deb

I understand, really. My dad was in the IBEW. Guys in a union know what they are ultimately about, they might argue and fight about who is going to be the main representative. And it's serious. This whole episode with the Tea Party isn't like that. Big difference between fighting for representation and fighting people trying to bust the union. That's just the hard reality.

178 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:51:17pm

re: #167 Dark_Falcon

I have no children, nor will I ever have any.

You better not let your fellow Republicans hear this. God put you hear to be fruitful and multiply.

/////

179 theheat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:51:18pm
*****UPDATE: IOWA, COLORADO, MASSACHUSETTS AND SEVERAL OTHER STATES HAVE CHECKED IN…. Tea Party Patriot groups and individuals are flooding me with emails [you know every fucking one of them has at least two FW FWs to it] vowing to participate and come up with their own creative ruses! Several have also reminded me that we have a distinct advantage in that the SEIU primarily represents non-English speaking illegal aliens so we will be the ones whose comments will make air!!!!*****

They're all checking in pledging creative ruses? What a fucking brain trust that must be, complete with the typical hysterical punctuation and capitalized STRENGTH words. An expression of real creativity is if these idiots ever came up with something outside their predictable factless drivel they label as "defacto truth."

And know a good number of people cheering these assholes are on Fox News viewers on their union retirement plans, because the union they belonged to was the only union with integrity, not like these fancy schmancy touchy feely leechy unions of today that only advance a godless gay commie liberal agenda.

180 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:51:33pm

re: #172 Dark_Falcon

Oh, you'd like that. That would increase casualties greatly. We left the draft behind for a very good reason, and as a result we have much more effective army.

Effective at what?

Afghanistan is a lost cause. It was never within our grasp to "win".

181 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:51:51pm

re: #177 Bob Levin

I understand, really. My dad was in the IBEW. Guys in a union know what they are ultimately about, they might argue and fight about who is going to be the main representative. And it's serious. This whole episode with the Tea Party isn't like that. Big difference between fighting for representation and fighting people trying to bust the union. That's just the hard reality.

We were IUE. IBEW are uppity.

182 austin_blue  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:51:55pm

re: #172 Dark_Falcon

Oh, you'd like that. That would increase casualties greatly. We left the draft behind for a very good reason, and as a result we have much more effective army.

What? Boots are boots.

183 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:51:57pm

re: #151 brookly red

well we could start hanging people for possession, I am sure that would reduce the demand but it is kinda harsh.

If Europe deals more effectively with it's addicts in terms of rehabbing them effectively - demand will be reduced. Afghanistan is Europe's main supplier.

184 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:52:10pm

re: #163 Gus 802

NATO Airstrike Is Said to Kill Afghan Civilians

Here's the skinny...

“According to our information 64 people were killed: 13 armed opposition, 22 women, 26 boys and 3 old men,” Mr. Wahidi said.

So they went ahead with a multi million dollar air-strike and ended up killing 64 people of which only 13 were insurgents. Where's the logic in that? You think that's going to go over well on the PR front?

This isn't a John Wayne movie where all of the natives can't think.

185 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:52:54pm

re: #170 wozzablog

Afghanistan is the worlds biggest producer - getting it down to Colombian levels would be great.

There have been huge failures in Colombia - for sure, as long as the same mistakes aren't made again and we can do the work with the boots on the ground to make some sort of difference to the farmers, i think we've got a sot at getting production down.

I don't believe for a second that production in Afghanistan will ever be eradicated - i want to make that clear though.

well yeah in a free market maybe... but when the local warlord tells you what to grow you do it. so this is really an all or nothing game.

186 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:53:05pm

re: #175 Stanley Sea

omg.

Well, what? It's a fact. An all-volunteer force has resulted in higher-quality, better motivated, more skilled Army.

187 recusancy  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:53:30pm

re: #173 austin_blue

Well, I'm a Leftie and a military vet. When in doubt, click the nick.

Still, be careful when calling large groups traitorous.

188 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:53:33pm

re: #114 albusteve

and you would trust these people?...c'mon KT, the Talis are natural born killers that live in the moment...they hate our guts with a passion, why believe them?

Why trust them? Why trust us? Suppose we learn they're eager to negotiate and then bomb them into oblivion because we know they're weak. I don't trust anybody.

189 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:53:35pm

re: #172 Dark_Falcon

Oh, you'd like that. That would increase casualties greatly.


What did you mean by 'you'd like that'?

190 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:53:36pm

re: #184 Gus 802

Here's the skinny...

“According to our information 64 people were killed: 13 armed opposition, 22 women, 26 boys and 3 old men,” Mr. Wahidi said.

So they went ahead with a multi million dollar air-strike and ended up killing 64 people of which only 13 were insurgents. Where's the logic in that? You think that's going to go over well on the PR front?

This isn't a John Wayne movie where all of the natives can't think.

That's how "victory" is achieved.

*vomit*

191 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:53:53pm

re: #180 Fozzie Bear

Effective at what?

Afghanistan is a lost cause. It was never within our grasp to "win".

What does victory there even look like? No one, right or left, seems to have much of an answer. If they did, I'd be much more supportive.

192 Targetpractice  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:54:03pm

re: #172 Dark_Falcon

Oh, you'd like that. That would increase casualties greatly. We left the draft behind for a very good reason, and as a result we have much more effective army.

We also left ourselves with an Army that's slowly being stressed to the breaking point. Even with the increase in ranks, we're seeing men spending a year or more at a time in that sandbox, special forces have seen their number increase and yet are being redeployed practically overnight because they're in such high demand.

Meanwhile, jihadis can grab a kid off the street, slap an AK-47 into his arms or a bomb on his chest, and throw him at our soldiers. Their investment? The cost of materials, no training necessary.

193 recusancy  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:54:05pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

Well, what? It's a fact. An all-volunteer force has resulted in higher-quality, better motivated, more skilled Army.

And a lot of yellow elephants.

194 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:54:26pm

re: #190 Fozzie Bear

That's how "victory" is achieved.

*vomit*

Collateral damage.

For pro-lifers.

195 Bob Levin  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:54:49pm

re: #181 Decatur Deb

Ha! :-) Fabulous, medical plan.

196 Stanghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:55:07pm

re: #190 Fozzie Bear

That's how "victory" is achieved.

*vomit*

Ditto on the vomit.

197 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:55:10pm

re: #185 brookly red

well yeah in a free market maybe... but when the local warlord tells you what to grow you do it. so this is really an all or nothing game.

We are there - and while we are there we have to try. Simple as.

198 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:55:31pm

re: #194 Gus 802

Collateral damage.

For pro-lifers.

They don't count foreigners as human, so it's ok to them. No inconsistency. Humans = fetuses. Everybody else is fair game to kill.

199 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:55:40pm

re: #176 Decatur Deb

Not if we have enough bouquets.

Tosses a bunch of parrot tulips DDeb's way!

200 theheat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:56:02pm

re: #131 Gus 802

The Russians kept up the rah rah for something like 20 years. I honestly don't know why we thought we'd fare any better picking insurgents off by groups of a dozen or less, other than to show commitment.

201 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:56:10pm

Remember when Iraq was unwinnable? Ah, those were the good old days.
Surge? Unpossible!

202 albusteve  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:56:25pm

re: #188 Killgore Trout

Why trust them? Why trust us? Suppose we learn they're eager to negotiate and then bomb them into oblivion because we know they're weak. I don't trust anybody.

especially our State Dept and war makers...I see nothing to negotiate, nothing except buying them off with money and weapons

203 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:56:33pm

re: #171 Gus 802

Sounds like Pakistan.

We won't be able to eliminate the Taliban or AQ. Won't happen. Ever. This mission will fail.

Could be. I haven't seen enough evidence to feel confident one way or the other. If it's a given that we can't defeat the Taliban, we shouldn't be there. But from what I've seen, the Taliban is not popular at all, and we made a lot of mistakes for years that the military has learned from.

204 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:56:51pm

re: #191 palomino

What does victory there even look like? No one, right or left, seems to have much of an answer. If they did, I'd be much more supportive.

well victory used to mean completely crushing your enemy... but since that is not an option I kind of have to agree with you, there is no victory.

205 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:57:02pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Remember when Iraq was unwinnable? Ah, those were the good old days.
Surge? Unpossible!

Do you think Iraq is over?

206 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:57:28pm

re: #191 palomino

What does victory there even look like? No one, right or left, seems to have much of an answer. If they did, I'd be much more supportive.

When you don't define your goals, you can't ever win, and you can't ever lose.

We have always been at war with EastAsia.

207 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:57:30pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Remember when Iraq was unwinnable? Ah, those were the good old days.
Surge? Unpossible!

It is, amazing to see the changes in our times.
Things that, like a free Libya, weren't even considered possible.
And now, they are possible.

208 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:57:39pm

re: #205 Decatur Deb

Do you think Iraq is over?

No, It's only just begun.

209 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:57:46pm

re: #189 Obdicut

What did you mean by 'you'd like that'?

I meant it as sarcasm. I don't think anyone here would actually like that.

210 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:58:06pm

re: #204 brookly red

well victory used to mean completely crushing your enemy... but since that is not an option I kind of have to agree with you, there is no victory.

That worked better when the enemy wore red coats and stood still to be crushed.

211 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:58:09pm

re: #157 Gus 802

Bring back the draft.

Genealogically speaking, that would be great.

Not sure about all other facets.

212 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:58:14pm

re: #198 Fozzie Bear

They don't count foreigners as human, so it's ok to them. No inconsistency. Humans = fetuses. Everybody else is fair game to kill.

That's kind of insane hyperbole.

I don't like the pro-life position. I think it's logically inconsistent. But what you just said is nutty.

My parents, sadly, are pro-life. My parents are also strongly, strongly anti-war. They're old-school Catholics.

213 recusancy  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:58:32pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Remember when Iraq was unwinnable? Ah, those were the good old days.
Surge? Unpossible!

Yay we toppled a country, allowed it to be ethnically cleansed, and now there's a disfunctional, islamic government in place with our troops still in harms way after almost a decade. WIN!

214 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:58:52pm

re: #205 Decatur Deb

Do you think Iraq is over?

no it seems to be spreading...

215 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:58:58pm

re: #204 brookly red

well victory used to mean completely crushing your enemy... but since that is not an option I kind of have to agree with you, there is no victory.

Yeah, we could have completely crushed them in a month or less. Why the extra 10 years?

216 krypto  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:59:02pm

I see the Mark Williams has disabled comments on his blog, after leaving just a few of what were probably the milder ones. I guess he doesn't want his hypocrisy being denounced where his usual followers will read it.

217 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:59:06pm

re: #207 Floral Giraffe

It is, amazing to see the changes in our times.
Things that, like a free Libya, weren't even considered possible.
And now, they are possible.

It is entirely possible that we could see an entirely new Middle East in the next year or two. It's exciting to imagine the possibilities.

218 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:59:10pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Remember when Iraq was unwinnable? Ah, those were the good old days.
Surge? Unpossible!

Thank you for that, Killgore.

219 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:59:21pm

re: #209 Dark_Falcon

I meant it as sarcasm. I don't think anyone here would actually like that.

Thank you for explaining. However, it wasn't clear you were being sarcastic, so it reads simply as an accusation that Gus would prefer higher casualties.

220 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:59:26pm

re: #184 Gus 802

Here's the skinny...

“According to our information 64 people were killed: 13 armed opposition, 22 women, 26 boys and 3 old men,” Mr. Wahidi said.

So they went ahead with a multi million dollar air-strike and ended up killing 64 people of which only 13 were insurgents. Where's the logic in that? You think that's going to go over well on the PR front?

This isn't a John Wayne movie where all of the natives can't think.

That sure won't get it done. No question about that.

221 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:59:44pm

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

No, it's my calculation that the cost of a perceived defeat would nullify any savings from withdrawal.

What a joke. Your "calculations" really don't factor in anything other than your own chickenhawk military fetishism. Otherwise you wouldn't blithely advocate spending lives and limbs to conquer people you don't even give a shit about.

re: #172 Dark_Falcon

Oh, you'd like that.

Yes, I would. It would mean military industrial parasites like you would have to factor your own self interest into the equation somewhere beyond a desire to sell more conference seats. It would force you to wake up and say "there but for the grace of God go I."

222 theheat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:59:46pm

re: #192 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Meanwhile, jihadis can grab a kid off the street, slap an AK-47 into his arms or a bomb on his chest, and throw him at our soldiers. Their investment? The cost of materials, no training necessary.

It's hard to threaten people so eager to die with the possibility of death, with thousands more in line behind them to take their place.

223 Stanghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 6:59:57pm

re: #213 recusancy

Yay we toppled a country, allowed it to be ethnically cleansed, and now there's a disfunctional, islamic government in place with our troops still in harms way after almost a decade. WIN!

Oh, and we have budget problems here @ home. No affect, none whatsoever.

Gah. (I've never been so fired up. Better than 2008, so watch out, I'm just a sampling of what's going on)

224 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:00:05pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Remember when Iraq was unwinnable? Ah, those were the good old days.
Surge? Unpossible!

What did we "win" in Iraq?

225 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:00:38pm

re: #215 palomino

Yeah, we could have completely crushed them in a month or less. Why the extra 10 years?

hey we could have nuked em out in half a day... but again, harsh.

226 Big Joe Ghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:00:43pm

re: #214 brookly red

no it seems to be spreading...

I don't think Iraq has anything to do with what's going on in the other countries, in fact I think what is happening in other countires could spread to Iraq.

227 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:00:43pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Remember when Iraq was unwinnable? Ah, those were the good old days.
Surge? Unpossible!

Afghanistan is not Iraq.

228 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:00:45pm

re: #213 recusancy

Yay we toppled a country, allowed it to be ethnically cleansed, and now there's a disfunctional, islamic government in place with our troops still in harms way after almost a decade. WIN!


Europe is a quagmire!
/We've been there 70 years

229 albusteve  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:00:46pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Remember when Iraq was unwinnable? Ah, those were the good old days.
Surge? Unpossible!

the surge was a mere 30k troops last June after over a year of contemplation....the effect? no surge and even more enemy combatants...Afghanistan is not winnable by ordinary logistics, even tho we can get the Taliban to stop their murderous rampage...no war does not mean peace

230 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:00:46pm

re: #205 Decatur Deb

Do you think Iraq is over?

We arbitrarily declared victory after the worst of the ethnic cleansing and have left Iran the power in the region.

Well, i thought it went well..............

/

231 austin_blue  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:00:54pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Remember when Iraq was unwinnable? Ah, those were the good old days.
Surge? Unpossible!

The surge came at the Golden Moment when the Sunni tribes decided they were tired being blown up. Did the surge help the movement that stopped the random slaughter at the time? Yes. Would it have been successful without the buy-in of the Sunnis?

Open for discussion, but I have my doubts. An additional 30,000 troops in a population of 26 million is...well, you do the math.

232 Targetpractice  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:01:23pm

re: #224 Talking Point Detective

What did we "win" in Iraq?

The "honor" of continuing our occupation for the foreseeable future. The numbers may have declined, but we'll never truly leave Iraq. Just like we're still in Kosovo, a decade later.

233 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:01:27pm

re: #214 brookly red

no it seems to be spreading...

Iran is spreading, into Iraq.

234 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:01:51pm

re: #228 Killgore Trout

Europe is a quagmire!
/We've been there 70 years

I would love to see the day that a deployment to Afghanistan or Iraq was like a deployment to Germany, with the entire family going, and excited to experience a new culture.

235 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:02:19pm

re: #225 brookly red

hey we could have nuked em out in half a day... but again, harsh.

There's gotta be something in between nukes and an indefinite occupation that lasts decades.

236 recusancy  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:02:44pm

re: #228 Killgore Trout

Europe is a quagmire!
/We've been there 70 years

Not even close to the same thing.

237 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:02:55pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Remember when Iraq was unwinnable? Ah, those were the good old days.
Surge? Unpossible!

Remember when the reduction in violence predated the increase of actual boots on the ground and the Surge took credit for the efforts of Sunni Awakening Councils? Of course you don't, you got sold by the marketing department, hook, line, sinker, tackle box.

238 Stanghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:02:58pm

re: #226 mracb

I don't think Iraq has anything to do with what's going on in the other countries, in fact I think what is happening in other countires could spread to Iraq.

It's the old I'm for Bush so I must equate Iraq with what's happening now in the ME. Total complete dementia to come up with that.

I'm following the tweets, there is NOTHING regarding Iraq in these uprisings. Holy cover our ass Batman.

239 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:03:01pm

re: #214 brookly red

no it seems to be spreading...

Just curious - have you heard one interview with one Egyptian, Tunisian, Arab involved in any of the demonstrations anywhere mention anything, at all, about Iraq being even the slightest bit inspirational?

240 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:03:03pm

re: #226 mracb

I don't think Iraq has anything to do with what's going on in the other countries, in fact I think what is happening in other countires could spread to Iraq.

really? Iraq the first in the hood with (somewhat) free elections? Like no one else noticed that?

241 Targetpractice  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:03:25pm

re: #235 palomino

There's gotta be something in between nukes and an indefinite occupation that lasts decades.

You ever figure it out, let the rest of us know.

242 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:03:37pm

re: #235 palomino

There's gotta be something in between nukes and an indefinite occupation that lasts decades.

Yes, there, is. It's what Clinton did. No fly zones, pressure, sanctions.

243 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:03:37pm

re: #239 Talking Point Detective

Sandmonkey did. I don't agree with everything he says, but he definitely did.

244 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:04:28pm

re: #221 goddamnedfrank

You can go take a 1/2 mile walk off a quarter-mile pier.

245 jamesfirecat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:04:32pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. We can't leave in defeat. Better a war lasting 30 years than that.

You got to know when to hold em and know when to fold em Dark.

A refusal to ever give up old grudges is part of what got the Middle East into the condition it is in today if you want my opinion.

246 Big Joe Ghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:04:34pm

re: #240 brookly red

really? Iraq the first in the hood with (somewhat) free elections? Like no one else noticed that?

I'm pretty sure the rest of the Muslim world see Iraq as an occupied territory.

247 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:04:48pm

re: #224 Talking Point Detective

What did we "win" in Iraq?

A fairly stable democracy. There have been a few protests in this recent wave but nothing compared to what's going on in the region's dictatorships. If Saddam were in power today he'd be gassing the fuck out of freedom seeking protesters like he did with the Kurds. Udday and Qussay would rocking out in the torture rooms. Business would be booming for construction equipment do dig all those mass graves.

248 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:05:44pm

Speaking of military matters, here's an admiral speaking well about DADT

Comedy Central Video
249 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:05:46pm

re: #243 Obdicut

Sandmonkey did. I don't agree with everything he says, but he definitely did.

Gotta link?

250 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:05:58pm

re: #240 brookly red

really? Iraq the first in the hood with (somewhat) free elections? Like no one else noticed that?

Oh, people noticed. But you'll never hear about that from the left, since that might mean that something George W. Bush did had a positive result. And they can't have that.

251 Stanghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:06:04pm

re: #239 Talking Point Detective

Just curious - have you heard one interview with one Egyptian, Tunisian, Arab involved in any of the demonstrations anywhere mention anything, at all, about Iraq being even the slightest bit inspirational?

Not a fucking peep. It's a right wing dream perpetuated, repeated, swallowed hole.

I regret the lack of insight of our fellow Americans.

252 Big Joe Ghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:06:14pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

A fairly stable democracy. There have been a few protests in this recent wave but nothing compared to what's going on in the region's dictatorships. If Saddam were in power today he'd be gassing the fuck out of freedom seeking protesters like he did with the Kurds. Udday and Qussay would rocking out in the torture rooms. Business would be booming for construction equipment do dig all those mass graves.

No he wouldn't, he has't had any WMDs since the end of the first Gulf War.

253 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:06:19pm

re: #235 palomino

There's gotta be something in between nukes and an indefinite occupation that lasts decades.

well not really, you can fight to win, or you can fight to suppress... re: #246 mracb

I'm pretty sure the rest of the Muslim world see Iraq as an occupied territory.

funny that was not mentioned in Egypt or Tunisia, or Libya...

254 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:06:22pm

Quoting from elsewhere, but it's interesting...

Barrett Brown
February 20, 2011 at 5:35 pm
Quadddafi is fleeing to Venezuela. #OpVenezuela has been rekindled as of five minutes ago. irc.anonops.in #opvenezuela. Hope to see our conservative friends as we hassle Chavez and Khaddafi all at once.

255 recusancy  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:06:43pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

A fairly stable democracy. There have been a few protests in this recent wave but nothing compared to what's going on in the region's dictatorships. If Saddam were in power today he'd be gassing the fuck out of freedom seeking protesters like he did with the Kurds. Udday and Qussay would rocking out in the torture rooms. Business would be booming for construction equipment do dig all those mass graves.

Sure. Things get real stable when the population ethnically cleanses itself.

256 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:07:04pm

We got a shitload of snow this afternoon and evening, all of the snow which was predicted for the great "Groundhog Day Snowpocalypse" and then some.

I may or may not go in to work tomorrow. Driving in the snow is not a problem, but driving over ice is a big problem. I'll go in an hour later, hope the freeway gets plowed and salted.

257 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:07:31pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

There's still torture, and people still disappear.

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

258 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:07:43pm

re: #250 Dark_Falcon

Oh, people noticed. But you'll never hear about that from the left, since that might mean that something George W. Bush did had a positive result. And they can't have that.

Cleaning up the pile of feces resulting from taking a crap on the floor isn't doing something that has a positive result. It's mitigating damage you created.

259 andres  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:07:53pm

re: #4 webevintage

What the hell is the matter with these people?

Ya know, I've been wondering the same thing for a while now, after learning the each one of the Republican plans.

260 Bob Levin  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:08:11pm

re: #254 Floral Giraffe

Really? Is this reliable? That's news.

261 austin_blue  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:08:31pm

re: #250 Dark_Falcon

Oh, people noticed. But you'll never hear about that from the left, since that might mean that something George W. Bush did had a positive result. And they can't have that.

Horseshit. I'll acknowledge it. I just question the cost in gold and blood.

262 Targetpractice  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:08:31pm

re: #254 Floral Giraffe

Quoting from elsewhere, but it's interesting...

Barrett Brown
February 20, 2011 at 5:35 pm
Quadddafi is fleeing to Venezuela. #OpVenezuela has been rekindled as of five minutes ago. irc.anonops.in #opvenezuela. Hope to see our conservative friends as we hassle Chavez and Khaddafi all at once.

Interesting if true.

263 Big Joe Ghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:08:44pm

re: #253 brookly red

well not really, you can fight to win, or you can fight to suppress... re: #246 mracb

funny that was not mentioned in Egypt or Tunisia, or Libya...

And yet neither their free elections as a beacon of democracy in the Mid-East.

264 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:08:55pm

re: #221 goddamnedfrank

What a joke. Your "calculations" really don't factor in anything other than your own chickenhawk military fetishism. Otherwise you wouldn't blithely advocate spending lives and limbs to conquer people you don't even give a shit about.

re: #172 Dark_Falcon

Yes, I would. It would mean military industrial parasites like you would have to factor your own self interest into the equation somewhere beyond a desire to sell more conference seats. It would force you to wake up and say "there but for the grace of God go I."

Why can't you get it through your thick skull that God wants us to run the world forever? Recessions and debt crises be damned.

265 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:08:58pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

A fairly stable democracy. There have been a few protests in this recent wave but nothing compared to what's going on in the region's dictatorships. If Saddam were in power today he'd be gassing the fuck out of freedom seeking protesters like he did with the Kurds. Udday and Qussay would rocking out in the torture rooms. Business would be booming for construction equipment do dig all those mass graves.

You're aware of the list. A fairly stable democracy for the time being while we still have troops there. We have absolutely no idea what it's going to be like after we leave. We spent trillions. Suffered tens of thousands of casualties. Millions fled the country. Women are regularly harassed. Christians are regularly harassed. Hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties. Iran has enlarged its sphere of influence. Many neighborhoods ethnically cleansed. High unemployment there. Terrible infrastructure damage.

That's not something that registers as a "win" in my book.

266 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:09:07pm

re: #262 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

My thoughts, exactly.

267 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:09:18pm

re: #250 Dark_Falcon

Oh, people noticed. But you'll never hear about that from the left, since that might mean that something George W. Bush did had a positive result. And they can't have that.

"Painful as it may be to admit, it was the despised former U.S. President George W. Bush who believed in the democratization of the Muslim world and incurred the scorn and mockery of the Left for his conviction," says the piece by Jan Fleischhauer.

- Der Spiegel magazine

268 Stanghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:09:27pm

re: #260 Bob Levin

Really? Is this reliable? That's news.

It's being tossed around the twitter feed. We will see.

BTW, where is Mubarak?

269 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:09:50pm

re: #260 Bob Levin

I don't know how reliable it is.
BB has been both a good source & a not so good source.
Only time will tell.

270 jaunte  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:09:55pm

re: #254 Floral Giraffe

This blogger said he was leaving, but now he's staying:
[Link: ianbone.wordpress.com...]

271 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:10:14pm

re: #254 Floral Giraffe

Quoting from elsewhere, but it's interesting...

Barrett Brown
February 20, 2011 at 5:35 pm
Quadddafi is fleeing to Venezuela. #OpVenezuela has been rekindled as of five minutes ago. irc.anonops.in #opvenezuela. Hope to see our conservative friends as we hassle Chavez and Khaddafi all at once.

I wouldn't trust a single thing that comes from Barrett Brown.

272 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:10:15pm

re: #253 brookly red

well not really, you can fight to win, or you can fight to suppress... re: #246 mracb

funny that was not mentioned in Egypt or Tunisia, or Libya...

It's not possible to fight to win without nukes?

273 Bob Levin  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:10:32pm

re: #268 Stanley Sea

I just read something about that today. Time to open a new window and take a look.

274 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:10:37pm

re: #254 Floral Giraffe

Quoting from elsewhere, but it's interesting...

Barrett Brown
February 20, 2011 at 5:35 pm
Quadddafi is fleeing to Venezuela. #OpVenezuela has been rekindled as of five minutes ago. irc.anonops.in #opvenezuela. Hope to see our conservative friends as we hassle Chavez and Khaddafi all at once.

I'd be very wary of anything BB has to say...he's fruit loops and a dick.

275 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:10:58pm

re: #271 Charles

I wouldn't trust a single thing that comes from Barrett Brown.

Well, there you have a better source!
Thanks, Charles!

276 Targetpractice  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:10:59pm

re: #268 Stanley Sea

It's being tossed around the twitter feed. We will see.

BTW, where is Mubarak?

If the world were fair, the lowest depths of Hell.

277 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:11:09pm

re: #268 Stanley Sea

It's being tossed around the twitter feed. We will see.

BTW, where is Mubarak?

it was your turn to watch him...

278 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:11:32pm

re: #267 brookly red

"Painful as it may be to admit, it was the despised former U.S. President George W. Bush who believed in the democratization of the Muslim world (from without) and incurred the scorn and mockery of the Left for his conviction," says the piece by Jan Fleischhauer.

- Der Spiegel magazine

279 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:11:34pm

re: #249 Talking Point Detective

I think it was on one of his tweets. Sorry, no link.

He's a rather odd guy.

280 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:11:50pm

re: #255 recusancy

Sure. Things get real stable when the population ethnically cleanses itself.

Given how things were under Saddam, ethnic cleansing was inevitable at some point. When 20% of the population lords over the other 80% for around 30 years as brutally as the Sunni Ba'athists did, there is going to be hell to pay when the majority finally gets some ability to decide things. That's not a good thing, but that's The Way It Is.

281 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:12:09pm

re: #274 talon_262

If BB was saying it was sunny outside, I'd look out to verify...

282 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:12:20pm

re: #250 Dark_Falcon

Oh, people noticed. But you'll never hear about that from the left, since that might mean that something George W. Bush did had a positive result. And they can't have that.

It's just a question of whether those semi-free elections were worth the cost. You think so, but for most Americans that train left the station at least five years ago.

283 Big Joe Ghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:12:24pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Given how things were under Saddam, ethnic cleansing was inevitable at some point. When 20% of the population lords over the other 80% for around 30 years as brutally as the Sunni Ba'athists did, there is going to be hell to pay when the majority finally gets some ability to decide things. That's not a good thing, but that's The Way It Is.

I have to give you that point.

284 Targetpractice  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:13:01pm

re: #263 mracb

And yet neither their free elections as a beacon of democracy in the Mid-East.

I think it's time we were honest, the elections in Iraq and Afghanistan were for show more than a sign that both nations were truly "free." In Iraq, the government's slowly being infiltrated by Iran, no doubt with the ultimate goal of bringing it into the fold, either as a client state or as a full-time partner. In Afghanistan, it's slowly becoming another autocracy that we're supporting simply because of our fear of what happens if we pull that support.

285 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:13:03pm

re: #272 palomino

It's not possible to fight to win without nukes?

of course... we did it in Europe, but it is not possible to fight and win with out fighting & winning.

286 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:13:08pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Really? I don't remember there being massacres of whites when apartheid was finally ended in South Africa.

287 jamesfirecat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:13:09pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Given how things were under Saddam, ethnic cleansing was inevitable at some point. When 20% of the population lords over the other 80% for around 30 years as brutally as the Sunni Ba'athists did, there is going to be hell to pay when the majority finally gets some ability to decide things. That's not a good thing, but that's The Way It Is.

We managed to avoid Ethnic Cleansing hear in the south after the civil war..... or was that just because there were still more white people than black ones?

288 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:13:17pm

re: #271 Charles

I wouldn't trust a single thing that comes from Barrett Brown.

Nor would I. He's not only proven deceitful, but he also hangs out with the Stalkers.

289 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:13:29pm

re: #272 palomino

It's not possible to fight to win without nukes?

Possible, but lethally expensive.

290 jaunte  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:13:29pm

Varied reports on Gaddafi's whereabouts:

The German news site TT.com is now reporting that opposition groups in Libya are now saying that "Muammar Al-Gaddafi had to leave the country for Brazil or Venezuela." Al Jazeera refused to take on the issue straight on, but their reports suggested that Gaddafi is no longer in his country.

Doha, a news site linked with Al Jazeera, is reporting that Gaddafi has in fact fled the country. [Link: punditpress.blogspot.com...]

291 recusancy  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:13:40pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Given how things were under Saddam, ethnic cleansing was inevitable at some point. When 20% of the population lords over the other 80% for around 30 years as brutally as the Sunni Ba'athists did, there is going to be hell to pay when the majority finally gets some ability to decide things. That's not a good thing, but that's The Way It Is.

So... We spent all the blood and treasure for a situation that was inevitable either way.

292 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:14:07pm

NATO disputes...

293 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:14:26pm

re: #267 brookly red

"Painful as it may be to admit, it was the despised former U.S. President George W. Bush who believed in the democratization of the Muslim world and incurred the scorn and mockery of the Left for his conviction," says the piece by Jan Fleischhauer.

- Der Spiegel magazine

"The left" scorned Bush for believing in the democratization of the Muslim world? I thought he got scorned for trying to force democratization at the end of a gun, based on a rationale that was proven to be false.

294 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:14:39pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. We can't leave in defeat. Better a war lasting 30 years than that.

So we do the same thing the Russians did there - declare Victory and leave. "We Won", Bye. Same effect now as it would have 30 years from now DF.

"Mission Accomplished" Mk II?

// only half.

295 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:14:45pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Given how things were under Saddam, ethnic cleansing was inevitable at some point. When 20% of the population lords over the other 80% for around 30 years as brutally as the Sunni Ba'athists did, there is going to be hell to pay when the majority finally gets some ability to decide things. That's not a good thing, but that's The Way It Is.

That's one of many reasons you don't topple all the bureaucracies of a government without the ability to replace the functions they perform.

There as nothing "inevitable" about the ethnic cleansing that happened in Iraq. It was caused by incompetence and poor planning.

296 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:14:47pm

re: #285 brookly red

it is not possible to fight and win with out fighting & winning.

Can't argue with that logic.

297 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:15:11pm

re: #293 Talking Point Detective

"The left" scorned Bush for believing in the democratization of the Muslim world? I thought he got scorned for trying to force democratization at the end of a gun, based on a rationale that was proven to be false.

take that up with Der Spiegel magazine

298 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:15:16pm

If I had the money I'd move next door to Gore Vidal. Or perhaps Normandy, France...

299 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:15:19pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Given how things were under Saddam, ethnic cleansing was inevitable at some point. When 20% of the population lords over the other 80% for around 30 years as brutally as the Sunni Ba'athists did, there is going to be hell to pay when the majority finally gets some ability to decide things. That's not a good thing, but that's The Way It Is.

Fair enough - we lifted the lid off a powder keg, but after we had dropped in a match ourselves.

300 simoom  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:15:37pm

According to a number of articles, there was a statement up at the Wisconson Law Enforcement Union's website withdrawing support from Walker, but I don't see it there anymore. Here's a part of it that I've pieced together from various excerpted bits:

I specifically regret the endorsement of the Wisconsin Trooper's Association for Gov. Scott Walker," executive board president Tracy Fuller writes in a statement dated February 16. "I regret the governor's decision to 'endorse' the troopers and inspectors of the Wisconsin State Patrol. I regret being the recipient of any of the perceived benefits provided by the governor's anointing.

I think everyone's job and career is just as significant as the others. Everyone's family is just as valuable as mine or any other persons, especially mine. Everyone's needs are just as valuable. We are all great people!!

I don’t believe that the Troopers Associatio­n could have possibly predicted, or comprehend­ed the events that are unfolding in front of us at this time. I can agree that it was a tragic mistake for the Trooper’s Associatio­n to endorse the Governor,

Tracy Fuller, Executive Board President
Wisconsin Law Enforcemen­t Associatio­n

I guess it was on the front page of here:
[Link: www.wlea.org...]

One of the articles mentioning it: [Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

301 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:15:54pm

re: #286 Obdicut

Really? I don't remember there being massacres of whites when apartheid was finally ended in South Africa.

There you have the greatness of Nelson Mandela.

I am serious.

302 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:16:11pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Given how things were under Saddam, ethnic cleansing was inevitable at some point. When 20% of the population lords over the other 80% for around 30 years as brutally as the Sunni Ba'athists did, there is going to be hell to pay when the majority finally gets some ability to decide things. That's not a good thing, but that's The Way It Is.

And everyone in the administration was warned about this. They all ignored the warnings. At best, you're excusing incompetence.

303 Bob Levin  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:16:13pm

re: #268 Stanley Sea

I just posted something on the big board about that. He's still in Egypt, the military is protecting him.

304 jamesfirecat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:16:31pm

re: #295 Fozzie Bear

That's one of many reasons you don't topple all the bureaucracies of a government without the ability to replace the functions they perform.

There as nothing "inevitable" about the ethnic cleansing that happened in Iraq. It was caused by incompetence and poor planning.

At the very least we could have followed the example of what happened to India, where we split up all major groups into their own different states....

305 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:16:34pm

re: #298 Gus 802

If I had the money I'd move next door to Gore Vidal. Or perhaps Normandy, France...

Take Normandy. I hear Gore Vidal throws loud parties with rap music.

306 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:16:46pm

re: #289 Decatur Deb

Possible, but lethally expensive.

We've certainly found that out the hard way over the last decade.

307 Targetpractice  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:16:48pm

re: #303 Bob Levin

I just posted something on the big board about that. He's still in Egypt, the military is protecting him.

Probably want first crack at him when it comes time to decide whether to let him disappear into exile or be put on trial.

308 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:17:02pm

re: #301 EmmmieG

And Desmond Tutu.

309 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:17:07pm

re: #301 EmmmieG

There you have the greatness of Nelson Mandela.

I am serious.

We had Curveball and Chalabi.

310 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:17:37pm

re: #286 Obdicut

Really? I don't remember there being massacres of whites when apartheid was finally ended in South Africa.

And what Saddam did made the Boers look positively humanitarian by comparison. Moreover, South Africa was lucky, having in Nelson Mandela a leader who was both strong enough to govern and decent enough to avoid being vindictive. Nor did South Africa have outside interests like Iran and Al Qaeda trying to stir the pot.

311 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:17:39pm

re: #304 jamesfirecat

At the very least we could have followed the example of what happened to India, where we split up all major groups into their own different states...

Are you serious, James? Do you not know what a fucking nightmarish, stupid, bloodbath the partition of India was?

312 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:18:11pm

re: #294 wlewisiii

So we do the same thing the Russians did there - declare Victory and leave. "We Won", Bye. Same effect now as it would have 30 years from now DF.

"Mission Accomplished" Mk II?

// only half.

We'll spend trillions to avenge the 3000 deaths of 911 and sacrifice the lives of 100,000s of thousands of Americans in the 30 years as a result of a war economy. Or as is typically said that 40,000 Americans die a year due to lack of health insurance. So 40,000 x 30 = 1,200,000.

313 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:18:32pm

re: #279 Obdicut

I think it was on one of his tweets. Sorry, no link.

He's a rather odd guy.

Thanks anyway. I think I remember something about it, but as I recall it was far below the bar of calling the invasion inspirational. Could be wrong, though.

314 brookly red  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:18:34pm

re: #311 Obdicut

Are you serious, James? Do you not know what a fucking nightmarish, stupid, bloodbath the partition of India was?

it seems to still be an issue, no?

315 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:19:06pm

re: #310 Dark_Falcon

And what Saddam did made the Boers look positively humanitarian by comparison.

What the fuck do you mean?

I'm going to assume you don't know that much about what apartheid was, am I right?

316 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:19:29pm

re: #300 simoom

According to a number of articles, there was a statement up at the Wisconson Law Enforcement Union's website withdrawing support from Walker, but I don't see it there anymore. Here's a part of it that I've pieced together from various excerpted bits:

I guess it was on the front page of here:
[Link: www.wlea.org...]

One of the articles mentioning it: [Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

It's getting really ugly in LEO circles.
Law enforcement union members 'at each other's throats' over budget plan

Gov. Scott Walker's plan to end collective bargaining for most state employees is tearing one labor organization apart.
The Wisconsin Law Enforcement Association, which represents about 900 state troopers, inspectors, police communication operators, Motor Vehicle Department field agents and other state police, includes some members who have been exempted from Walker's plan, said WLEA President Tracy Fuller on Sunday.
"Our union is being torn apart about this," said Fuller, who is a State Patrol inspector from Madison. "We've got members at each other's throats."

[Link: host.madison.com...]

317 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:19:43pm

re: #310 Dark_Falcon

And what Saddam did made the Boers look positively humanitarian by comparison. Moreover, South Africa was lucky, having in Nelson Mandela a leader who was both strong enough to govern and decent enough to avoid being vindictive. Nor did South Africa have outside interests like Iran and Al Qaeda trying to stir the pot.

Too bad that Winnie went bad...

318 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:19:48pm

re: #302 palomino

And everyone in the administration was warned about this. They all ignored the warnings. At best, you're excusing incompetence.

I'd call it wishful thinking. Wishful thinking that I myself was guilty of at the time, even if to a slightly lesser degree.

319 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:19:51pm

Typical wingnut comment at Yahoo:

Line up about 100 B-52s and flatten that land,educate whats left.Maybe a little Agent Orange on the Popi plants too.

320 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:20:18pm

re: #311 Obdicut

Are you serious, James? Do you not know what a fucking nightmarish, stupid, bloodbath the partition of India was?

The last act of the last great Empire and it was truly one of the most awful things in the history of mankind.

321 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:20:36pm

We just should never have gone there in the first place, for all the reasons predicted before the war. For all the reasons Bush was warned it would be a quagmire. For all the reasons Bush Sr. and Cheney knew before the war.

There's a reason we didn't invade Baghdad in Desert Storm. There's a reason Dick Cheney said during the elder Bush administration that an occupation in Iraq would take a decade or more and cost many thousands of lives.

There's also a reason that Cheney said it would take "months, not years" in 2003. He was fucking lying.

322 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:20:48pm

Would take a lot more than 100 B-52s to "flatten the land". Americans are always looking at violence for answers. And the funny thing is that they don't think that the rest of the world notices.

323 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:20:53pm

A word of free advice for Williams and other tea party operatives:

Ethics aside, infiltration and false flag tactics will only work if YOU KEEP THEM A SECRET.

324 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:20:56pm

re: #319 Gus 802

Typical wingnut comment at Yahoo:

A variation of the old chestnut, "turn the ME into a self-lighting glass-floored parking lot." Very classy, indeed...

325 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:21:12pm

re: #286 Obdicut

Seen this?
[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]
excerpt
Death has stalked South Africa’s white farmers for years. The number murdered since the end of apartheid in 1994 has passed 3,000.

In neighbouring Zimbabwe, a campaign of intimidation that began in 2000 has driven more than 4,000 commercial farmers off their land, but has left fewer than two dozen dead.

The vulnerability felt by South Africa’s 40,000 remaining white farmers intensified earlier this month when Julius Malema, head of the African National Congress’s (ANC’s) youth league, opened a public rally by singing Dubula Ibhunu, or Shoot the Boer, an apartheid-era anthem, that was banned by the high court last week.

326 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:21:53pm

re: #315 Obdicut

What the fuck do you mean?

I'm going to assume you don't know that much about what apartheid was, am I right?

I don't know much, I admit. But it was my understanding that there weren't Saddam-type mass killing and gas attacks. I know the abuses of the Boers were brutal and legion, but as I understand it Saddam Hussein was far worse.

327 jamesfirecat  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:22:09pm

re: #311 Obdicut

Are you serious, James? Do you not know what a fucking nightmarish, stupid, bloodbath the partition of India was?

Sorry my bad, I'll admit the extent of my knowledge of India's history is extremely lacking. I suppose giving individual religious groups their own states (especially ones right next to each other) is probably no more effective in the long run than leaving them all together in one single state....

328 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:22:09pm

re: #310 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to simply presume that you have never studied the history down there in any depth. That was centuries of mankind at it's ugliest.

329 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:22:18pm

re: #302 palomino

And everyone in the administration was warned about this. They all ignored the warnings. At best, you're excusing incompetence.

That's what gets me about the apologists for the invasion the most. I can understand differing views on the rationale for the invasion, but it was done incompetently from top to bottom. Empowering lackeys to do important jobs. Systematically undermining any conflicting information from experts. It's a long list. Why anyone would be an apologist for such complete incompetence is beyond me.

330 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:22:37pm

re: #326 Dark_Falcon

I don't know much, I admit. But it was my understanding that there weren't Saddam-type mass killing and gas attacks. I know the abuses of the Boers were brutal and legion, but as I understand it Saddam Hussein was far worse.

Ok you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

331 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:22:48pm

re: #322 Gus 802

Would take a lot more than 100 B-52s to "flatten the land". Americans Chickenhawk wingnuts who have little clue what it really means to wage war are always looking at violence for answers. And the funny thing is that they don't think that the rest of the world notices.

FTFY...

332 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:23:40pm

re: #318 Dark_Falcon

I'd call it wishful thinking. Wishful thinking that I myself was guilty of at the time, even if to a slightly lesser degree.

Since when does "wishful thinking" become the foundation for war planning? And why would those people who engaged in such thinking deserve credit?

Like I said, the ship has sailed. Trying to convince people that Iraq was a great success is like trying to justify any other war that went badly...a lost cause.

333 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:24:05pm

re: #318 Dark_Falcon

I'd call it wishful thinking. Wishful thinking that I myself was guilty of at the time, even if to a slightly lesser degree.

Maybe for you it was wishful thinking. For people who were entrusted to make well though out decisions through a thorough analysis process, it was incompetence.

334 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:24:28pm

re: #326 Dark_Falcon

It's comparing evil with evil. Not gassing people? Great. Instead, they herded them onto barren lands, denied them medical treatment, and whipped and hung political activists.

Sure, it wasn't as 'bad'. It wasn't humanitarian by comparison. At all. They still killed, stole, oppressed, and abused, relentlessly and without compassion.

335 recusancy  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:24:42pm

re: #326 Dark_Falcon

I don't know much, I admit. But it was my understanding that there weren't Saddam-type mass killing and gas attacks. I know the abuses of the Boers were brutal and legion, but as I understand it Saddam Hussein was far worse.

He was far worse when Rumsfeld was giving him reach arounds back in the 80's.

336 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:25:13pm

re: #327 jamesfirecat

Well, start with the Wiki article, but anywhere up to a million people died in the violence following the partition. It's not a model of how to do things.

337 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:25:31pm

re: #323 Shiplord Kirel

A word of free advice for Williams and other tea party operatives:

Ethics aside, infiltration and false flag tactics will only work if YOU KEEP THEM A SECRET.

Shhh.
You're giving it away!

338 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:26:17pm

re: #322 Gus 802

Would take a lot more than 100 B-52s to "flatten the land". Americans are always looking at violence for answers. And the funny thing is that they don't think that the rest of the world notices.

Wingnut militarism is comically ill-informed. We don't have 100 B-52s. There are 93, all H models, still available. Of these, 66 are operational, and 27 are held in short response reserve. Of the 659 other B-52s built, 30 were combat losses, 74 were lost in accidents, and the rest were scrapped or consigned to museums, usually in accord with arms reduction treaties.

339 Gus  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:27:37pm

re: #338 Shiplord Kirel

Wingnut militarism is comically ill-informed. We don't have 100 B-52s. There are 93, all H models, still available. Of these, 66 are operational, and 27 are held in short response reserve. Of the 659 other B-52s built, 30 were combat losses, 74 were lost in accidents, and the rest were scrapped or consigned to museums, usually in accord with arms reduction treaties.

Thanks. I was going to check.

340 palomino  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:29:26pm

re: #335 recusancy

He was far worse when Rumsfeld was giving him reach arounds back in the 80's.

Correct AND funny.

341 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:30:38pm

re: #338 Shiplord Kirel

Wingnut militarism is comically ill-informed. We don't have 100 B-52s. There are 93, all H models, still available. Of these, 66 are operational, and 27 are held in short response reserve. Of the 659 other B-52s built, 30 were combat losses, 74 were lost in accidents, and the rest were scrapped or consigned to museums, usually in accord with arms reduction treaties.

I had the same discussion here some time back about the seemingly limitless reserves of american foot soldiers available for the Afghan surge that Obama wimped out on........ (if you didn't count brigades that were not combat ready, had no equipment or already been through 5 tours).

342 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:31:39pm

re: #334 Obdicut

It's comparing evil with evil. Not gassing people? Great. Instead, they herded them onto barren lands, denied them medical treatment, and whipped and hung political activists.

Sure, it wasn't as 'bad'. It wasn't humanitarian by comparison. At all. They still killed, stole, oppressed, and abused, relentlessly and without compassion.

I apologize for the error. I was not intending to exonerate the Boers.

343 austin_blue  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:33:00pm

re: #339 Gus 802

Thanks. I was going to check.

I used to fly those H's. Four to five years younger than I was. Remarkable airplanes. Loved 'em.

344 Stanghazi  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:34:56pm

re: #309 wozzablog

We had Curveball and Chalabi.

Oh yeah, we were on TOP of it.

345 Obdicut  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:34:58pm

re: #342 Dark_Falcon

Not just Boers, remember. The British also colonized there.

Anyway, thanks for the apology.

346 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:38:04pm

re: #345 Obdicut

Not just Boers, remember. The British also colonized there.

Anyway, thanks for the apology.

Yeah, but I read about the Zulu War of 1879 and the Boer War, so I did know the stuff the British did.

347 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:38:51pm

re: #321 Fozzie Bear

We just should never have gone there in the first place, for all the reasons predicted before the war. For all the reasons Bush was warned it would be a quagmire. For all the reasons Bush Sr. and Cheney knew before the war.

There's a reason we didn't invade Baghdad in Desert Storm. There's a reason Dick Cheney said during the elder Bush administration that an occupation in Iraq would take a decade or more and cost many thousands of lives.

There's also a reason that Cheney said it would take "months, not years" in 2003. He was fucking lying.

Do you have a link to that Cheney quote? I was looking for it the other day and couldn't find it. Actually, I thought it was "...weeks, not months." This was the closest I could find:

A senior administration official who briefed reporters Monday on condition of anonymity said Rumsfeld "has right along said that he thought that fighting was likely to last weeks, not months." Rumsfeld told troops last month that "it could last, you know, six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." Rumsfeld also contradicted the Army chief of staff, who told the Senate that "several hundred thousand" troops would be needed to occupy Iraq. "Far off the mark," Rumsfeld said.

Some officials' predictions may yet be realized, even if early signs have not been encouraging. For example, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul D. Wolfowitz said in a speech earlier this month that "the Iraqi people understand what this crisis is about. Like the people of France in the 1940s, they view us as their hoped-for liberator." Wolfowitz said yesterday that "we probably did underestimate the willingness of this regime to commit war crimes," but he said other forecasts were on course.

This is the kind of incompetence that folks are trying to excuse by holding up present day Iraq as a shining example?

348 sod  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:42:09pm

re: #338 Shiplord Kirel

Wingnut militarism is comically ill-informed. We don't have 100 B-52s. There are 93, all H models, still available. Of these, 66 are operational, and 27 are held in short response reserve. Of the 659 other B-52s built, 30 were combat losses, 74 were lost in accidents, and the rest were scrapped or consigned to museums, usually in accord with arms reduction treaties.

One (1) B-52H, with 12 nuclear Advanced Cruise Missiles (ACMs), 6 per wing pylon, and 8 nuclear Air Launched Cruise Missiles (ALCMs) on a rotary launcher in the bomb bay will go a long way toward flattening something.

349 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:42:28pm

re: #97 Bob Levin

From the article:

This sentence is just BS. They are going to there to start a fight.

He's also trying to instill a sense in the people doing this that they're in danger, which raises the probability that they will overreact to any conflict that arises.

350 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:48:36pm

re: #347 Talking Point Detective

OK - I found this.

This is the incompetence that some folks feel compelled to make excuses for:

"You're going to find Iraqis out cheering American troops."
-- Paul Wolfowitz, February 23, 2003
"There is no question but that they would be welcomed."
-- Donald Rumsfeld, February 20, 2003
"My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators."
-- Dick Cheney, March 16, 2003
"Given the chance to throw off a brutal dictator like Saddam Hussein, people will rejoice."
-- Ari Fleischer, March 21, 2003
Source: The War in Quotes, by G.B. Trudeau, p. 47 Oct 1, 2008
2005: Iraq is in the last throes of the insurgency

"I think we're on the brink of success."
_Gen. Richard B. Myers, Armed Services Committee, May 21, 2004
"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency."
-- Dick Cheney, July 20, 2005
"My fellow citizens: Not only can we win the war in Iraq, we are winning the war in Iraq."
--George W. Bush, August 17, 2005
"We're on the road to victory here."
-- George W. Bush, November 19. 2005
Source: The War in Quotes, by G.B. Trudeau, p. 78-79 Oct 1, 2008
2003: Iraq occupation will last weeks rather than months

"I can't tell you if the use of force in Iraq today would last five days, or five weeks, or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that."
--Donald Rumsfeld, November 14, 2002
"It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months"
-- Donald Rumsfeld, February 7, 2003
"I think it will go relatively quickly. Weeks rather than months."
-- Dick Cheney, March 16, 2003
"No one is talking about occupying Iraq for five to ten years."
-- Richard Perle, March 9, 2003
"It could be that, absolutely."
-- George W. Bush, when asked of the United States would have troops in Iraq for the next ten years, January 11, 2008

351 Fozzie Bear  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:49:07pm

re: #350 Talking Point Detective

Compare that to this:

Youtube Video
352 Bob Levin  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 7:53:13pm

re: #349 SanFranciscoZionist

Any adult should know, you don't go screwing around with unions when they are fighting for their existence. These Tea Party people are like children playing politics. Man, this is a grown-up issue.

And you're right, he's setting up his own people to get hurt.

353 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:03:02pm

re: #351 Fozzie Bear

Compare that to this:


[Video]

Wow! I haven't seen that clip before. Unbelievably damning.

Well, to anyone who isn't a Republican toady.

354 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:07:48pm

Sounds like somebody is afraid the anti-union protesters and the governor are losing the pr war.

355 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:15:03pm

re: #52 Charles

The Republican Party and their right wing followers are diving into the gutter because their sole objective is regaining power. They'll say and do anything to make that happen.

We wonder how they can lie without a guilty conscience -- it's because they see themselves in an all-out war to preserve their privileged white lifestyles against the encroachment of the evil dusky hordes. You can see this attitude just reeking out of Williams' post.

And I strongly suspect this is one of the main reasons for the right's opposition to what's happening in Wisconsin.

Truthfully, this is why I'm glad this is happening in such a white state like Wisconsin. If these protesters where mostly black or Hispanic, I don't think I could stomach the comments or the spin from the media. Especially when I here how they are already being talked about with words like "lazy", "greedy" and suggestions that they only take from tax payers and don't pay taxes themselves being thrown around. The fact that the pro-union protesters are almost as white as the TPers is a bit of a relief. I'm not proud of this feeling, but it's there.

356 krypto  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:26:16pm

I hope lots of people all over the web have captured and saved that web page by Mark Williams. Eventually he will get a clue of how badly he discredits himself and his followers. He deserves to have it used in the future to expose what sort of slimy dishonesty he practices.

357 sagehen  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:28:26pm

re: #46 EmmmieG

Thanks. Now indexing WWII draft registrations (for men that were too old to serve, but might have been seen as a reserve.)

Are you doing geneology stuff? My mom grew up on 166th, just off the Grand Concourse -- if any of your relatives went to school with her, we're almost mishpocha.

358 sagehen  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:35:17pm

re: #84 Obdicut

A lot of people have apparently ordered pizzas for the protesters.

So I was making fun of this idea that the protesters are 'funded' by Obama.

So that's one category of small business owners who'd like the protests to go on and on and on...

359 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:42:08pm

re: #172 Dark_Falcon

Oh, you'd like that. That would increase casualties greatly. We left the draft behind for a very good reason, and as a result we have much more effective army.

My brother-in-law has now served more time overseas in a shooting war than all three of my grandfathers combined did during the Second World War. He's cracking up. Effective? We're creating a generation of men and women who are being completely destroyed through war, and carrying the burden of unnecessary fighting for the rest of us.

360 blueraven  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:44:27pm

re: #98 brookly red

shakes head, pops longneck...

You leave Floral alone!

361 Decatur Deb  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:46:35pm

re: #356 krypto

I hope lots of people all over the web have captured and saved that web page by Mark Williams. Eventually he will get a clue of how badly he discredits himself and his followers. He deserves to have it used in the future to expose what sort of slimy dishonesty he practices.

It's on Memorandum blog headline aggregator now--

362 sagehen  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:51:06pm

re: #231 austin_blue

The surge came at the Golden Moment when the Sunni tribes decided they were tired being blown up. Did the surge help the movement that stopped the random slaughter at the time? Yes. Would it have been successful without the buy-in of the Sunnis?

Open for discussion, but I have my doubts. An additional 30,000 troops in a population of 26 million is...well, you do the math.

For comparison purposes...

NYC has 30,000 cops, policing 8 million mostly peaceful people in 200 square miles.

363 alpuz  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:58:20pm

re: #358 sagehen

I was in Madison from Thursday morning through Saturday evening. The businesses were packed and running out of stock. The Tea Party bused in the 'brown baggers.'

While at a brew pub on Friday night, the waitress told us stories about the last time the Tea Party arrived in Madison... apparently it didn't go over well with some of the owners.

364 Amory Blaine  Sun, Feb 20, 2011 10:45:50pm

re: #359 SanFranciscoZionist

My brother-in-law has now served more time overseas in a shooting war than all three of my grandfathers combined did during the Second World War. He's cracking up. Effective? We're creating a generation of men and women who are being completely destroyed through war, and carrying the burden of unnecessary fighting for the rest of us.

Just want to add that their children are being affected as well causing intergenerational damage.

365 hugh59  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:13:14am

I am a conservative Republican and I strongly disapprove of behavior like this. Mark Williams is not doing his side any favors.

However, I wonder if there are any liberals here who are complaining about Williams who would gladly cheer on some leftist activists using similar tactics against a conservative group?

Let's all be consistent and oppose these kinds of antics, no matter who does it.

366 Bob Levin  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:34:56am

re: #365 hugh59

What conservative group could possible fill the analogy to a labor union? A labor union is a necessary cog in the economy, as necessary as a bank or a credit union. He's supposed to have some understanding of how the economy works--at least in his own state.

If you read about consumer confidence, consumer demand, sales of durable goods, factory use, factory orders--all of these numbers are relevant because people have the purchasing power to make the economy run. And one of the main reasons that they have the purchasing power, labor unions.

367 Snauhi  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:41:25am

As on observer from Finland i find it shocking how dirty the conservatives play.. I mean cmon!

368 Tigger2005  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:43:08am

re: #118 albusteve

how are we gonna get them away from their narco economy?...voodo?
Agent Orange?...not gonna happen unless we nuke the poppies and buy the difference...every year that is, for eternity?

Afghanistan didn't have anywhere near the "narco economy" before the Russians, the muj and the Taliban as it does now. The country fed itself and exported food crops.

369 Tigger2005  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:47:16am

re: #362 sagehen

For comparison purposes...

NYC has 30,000 cops, policing 8 million mostly peaceful people in 200 square miles.

Despite appearances, NYC cops don't shoot to kill on a daily basis.

370 Tigger2005  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:51:28am

re: #365 hugh59

I am a conservative Republican and I strongly disapprove of behavior like this. Mark Williams is not doing his side any favors.

However, I wonder if there are any liberals here who are complaining about Williams who would gladly cheer on some leftist activists using similar tactics against a conservative group?

Let's all be consistent and oppose these kinds of antics, no matter who does it.

I think you would find that the "liberals" in here would largely disapprove of such antics. Of course, every time a Tea Partier at a debate or demonstration says or does something outrageous, the TP brings out the old "He/she was a liberal plant" canard.

Thing is, such a liberal plant wouldn't really have to say anything particularly outrageous, relatively speaking. He/she would have a hard time topping an exact quote from, say, Glenn Beck.

371 S'latch  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:19:11am

Top Secret Plans? Post them on the Internets!!!!!!!!11ty

372 I Am Kreniigh!  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:44:12am

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. The majority of SEIU members in Wisconsin don't speak English? I'd be surprised.

Goldurn Hmongs!

373 krypto  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:57:00am

So how come the Mark Williams site with the infiltrator recruitment webpage is no longer reachable? Hackers? Cowardice?

374 Racialite  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:08:13am

This is already happening. There are couple of signs being showcased by the hateway pundits which I believe to be false flags.

375 krypto  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:21:04pm

First prize for investigative photo-journalism should go to the news channel or blog that gets and publicizes the photo of Mark Williams dressed in his SEIU tee shirt carrying one of the fake "pro-union" signs. He said that he too was personally signing up as a union organizer to try it himself.

That should be a real classic.

Unfortunately, his claim that he would do it himself was probably a bluff.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 56 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
4 days ago
Views: 161 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1