Wisconsin GOP Union-Busting Coalition Falling Apart?

Another term for ‘moderate Republican’ is ‘RINO’
Politics • Views: 23,738

The right wing coalition trying to destroy collective bargaining in Wisconsin is starting to fall apart.

With Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker maintaining a hard line on his budget bill and Democratic senators refusing to return to Madison to vote, attention is turning to a group of moderate Republican senators to negotiate a compromise to the stalemate that has drawn thousands of protesters to the state capital for a sixth straight day.

The proposal, written by Sen. Dale Schultz and first floated in the Republican caucus early last week, calls for most collective bargaining rights of public-employee unions to be eliminated—per Mr. Walker’s bill—but then reinstated in 2013, said Mr. Schultz’s chief of staff Todd Allbaugh.

And this, of course, is enraging the right wing blogosphere; Jim “Dim” Hoft says to his readers:

DERPGood grief…

Don’t look now but Wisconsin Republican Senators are getting wobbly.

Republican Senator Dale Schultz is ready to bail on Governor Scott Walker.

You can send Dale Schultz a respectful email telling him to support Governor Walker here.

I love it! A “respectful email,” indeed. Here’s the title of Hoft’s idiotic post: “Republican Turncoats May Sabotage Governor Walker’s Budget Cut Plans!”

That’s the Tea Party definition of “respectful.”

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70 comments
1 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:45:28am

At least Walker hasn't ordered any air strikes yet.

2 iossarian  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:45:34am

To reiterate from earlier - recent research suggests that, controlling for level of education, WI public-sector employees are paid less than their private-sector counterparts (including benefits).

3 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:47:52am

It's something, but I still don't like it. The proposed "compromise" is still union-busting and seems to serve no other purpose. And I can see the same thing happening with this supposedly temporary measure that happened with the Bush tax cuts: 2013 comes and they "need to be extended to keep Wisconsin afloat".

4 BishopX  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:49:32am

re: #3 Simply Sarah

I also think they're hoping the unions won't be able to survive two votes to renew them selves. If the unions are broken by 2013 the senators can just shrug it off.

5 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:50:04am

re: #4 BishopX

Yep.

6 Laughing Gas  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:54:41am

These people (Tea-Partiers) are like a non-violent version of Mubarak's goons.

7 Big Steve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:55:25am

There is a little talked about unexpected consequence of all this school budget crunching going in in most states. In the 80's and 90's the business world gave up the ghost about the employer - employee loyalty expectations. Wave after wave of layoffs obliterated this. Now a days, in the private sector, employees expect to move from job to job over their career and employers don't bat an eyelash at ordering layoffs.

The public sector, in particular schools have not yet been hit by this. Having been a school board member, I have seen reports on this. Teachers have incredible loyalty to their districts and will stay put even when other districts near by pay better. They get to know their subjects, schools, kids and parents and are not willing to make a school change. Retention rates in most well regarded school districts would be the envy of most private businesses.

Now, however, there will be layoffs of teachers who are actually doing a good job across the country. This will likely lead to the same effect that happened in the private sector over the past two decades.....that the loyalty expectations will be broken. This will then lead, once the tax roles rebound, to more and more teachers willing to job hop for higher pay. This will spiral up teacher pay. Some view this as a good thing, some a bad thing, but the law of unintended consequences will have its day here.

8 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:56:27am

I have to wonder if Walker's whole case, scapegoating unions for allegedly excessive benefits and compensation, is a complete fabrication.
Here in Texas, teachers cannot legally strike and collective bargaining rights are very limited. Even so we end up paying about the same compensation as states where these things do exist, once the cost of living is factored in. It isn't unions that drive these costs, it is the competition for good teachers. If you don't pay well enough, they will go elsewhere. It is as simple as that, the good old GOP value of supply and demand.

9 Kragar  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:56:54am

Just a random thought, does Jim have one bowl he uses for all his haircuts or a variety depending on his schedule?

10 Merryweather  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:57:09am

As usual, the Republican definition of compromise turns out to be "Give us what we want, and we'll talk about throwing you a bone in X years' time, by which time you'll have forgotten about it."

11 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:57:13am

re: #6 Juice

These people (Tea-Partiers) are like a non-violent version of Mubarak's goons.

No kidding... they scare the shit out of me. They are hiding everywhere. It's getting so frighting that I don't even want to leave the house anymore.

12 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:57:22am

right wing blogger betsy newmark titles her propaganda instructions blog post about the teacher's strike this way:

How to think about the political battle in Wisconsin

13 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:57:45am

re: #7 Big Steve

I have always found it ironically amusing that businesses complain of the lack of employee loyalty.

14 Merryweather  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:58:48am

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just a random thought, does Jim have one bowl he uses for all his haircuts or a variety depending on his schedule?

I must say it suits him. Pudding head has a pudding bowl cut.

15 Lidane  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:00:10am

re: #10 Merryweather

As usual, the Republican definition of compromise turns out to be "Give us what we want, and we'll talk about throwing you a bone in X years' time, by which time you'll have forgotten about it."

It dovetails nicely with the Republican definition of bipartisanship, which is, "Democrats giving us what we want no matter the consequences."

16 jaunte  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:02:45am
You can send Dale Schultz a respectful email telling him to support Governor Walker


Go to all the trouble of calling out a torch-carrying mob, and then you have to keep reminding them to be polite.

17 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:03:29am

I love it! A “respectful email,” indeed. Here’s the title of Hoft’s idiotic post: “Republican Turncoats May Sabotage Governor Walker’s Budget Cut Plans!”

That’s the Tea Party definition of “respectful.”

Damn Charles, you sunk his battleship!

18 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:03:33am

I have a feeling republicans are going to seriously regret all this overreach at the next elections.

They have mistaken their election as a mandate to implement all of their platform points, instead of as the simple desire for a more stable economy. They are taking their election as approval of all their ideas. But now that they are trying ram these ideas down the American public's throats, they will find out just how much the public doesn't really care for their thoughts about abortion, unions, etc.

To top it off, they have woken the left wing protest machine. Another mistake on their part. The tea party are childish amateurs by comparison.

19 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:04:13am

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just a random thought, does Jim have one bowl he uses for all his haircuts or a variety depending on his schedule?

I suspect he just keeps using the one his mom lets him lick after she makes brownies.

Although it's a long climb from his basement lair.

20 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:04:53am

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just a random thought, does Jim have one bowl he uses for all his haircuts or a variety depending on his schedule?

That Justin Bieber look is just sooo kewl!

21 Kragar  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:05:25am

re: #20 Alouette

That Justin Bieber look is just sooo kewl!

Why bring her into it?

22 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:05:34am

re: #18 prononymous

I have a feeling republicans are going to seriously regret all this overreach at the next elections.

That's what I keep wondering. Did they really think they would get any kind of pass on creating jobs if they didn't actually create any?

23 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:06:06am

I really think that the whole meme of unions destroying competitiveness is horse manure. For example, we no longer build merchant ships in this country. Practically anyone who knows about this will claim that it happened because of excessive union demands. If that is so, how come countries like Finland and Denmark, where unions are at least as strong as here, remain competitive in shipbuilding? The stock libertarian answer would be that they have government subsidies. However, the industry in this country was (and still is) virtually subsidized by the extensive construction of warships, something that Finland and Denmark don't do on anything like the same scale.

24 Big Steve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:07:05am

re: #8 Shiplord Kirel

I have to wonder if Walker's whole case, scapegoating unions for allegedly excessive benefits and compensation, is a complete fabrication.
Here in Texas, teachers cannot legally strike and collective bargaining rights are very limited. Even so we end up paying about the same compensation as states where these things do exist, once the cost of living is factored in. It isn't unions that drive these costs, it is the competition for good teachers. If you don't pay well enough, they will go elsewhere. It is as simple as that, the good old GOP value of supply and demand.

Actually Texas pays pretty well. When you factor in cost of living, benefits, etc (Comfort level) Texas is in the top 10. Wisconsin is middle of the pack. Teacher Pay by State

25 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:07:05am

re: #8 Shiplord Kirel

I have to wonder if Walker's whole case, scapegoating unions for allegedly excessive benefits and compensation, is a complete fabrication.
Here in Texas, teachers cannot legally strike and collective bargaining rights are very limited. Even so we end up paying about the same compensation as states where these things do exist, once the cost of living is factored in. It isn't unions that drive these costs, it is the competition for good teachers. If you don't pay well enough, they will go elsewhere. It is as simple as that, the good old GOP value of supply and demand.

Well, If you get enough states to ban CBAs, then you can unwind benefits and not have to worry about losing ground to other states. (after all, if enough states stop offering it, then people have no incentive to bolt)

You're seeing a nationwide effort against unions going on right now. It's almost like all these individual states are somehow working under some sort of unified command or something.

there's also an interesting correlation between student performance and the ability for teachers to negotiate CBAs. (states with out the ability to negotiate CBA's tend to the bottom of student performance) No clue if correlation == causation but it is an interesting little tidbit.

26 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:09:55am

re: #11 Walter L. Newton

No kidding... they scare the shit out of me. They are hiding everywhere. It's getting so frighting that I don't even want to leave the house anymore.

You should flee somewhere--maybe France.

27 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:17:12am

re: #22 PT Barnum

That's what I keep wondering. Did they really think they would get any kind of pass on creating jobs if they didn't actually create any?

They probably think that what they are doing will create jobs. Just bust a few unions here, give big businesses a tax cut there. Before you know it the invisible hand of the market has come along and jacked-off last quarter's profit bar graph. And more profits = more jobs, of course.

The reality is that companies hire primarily based on the demand for their products. If consumer confidence is low, for example because of high unemployment and/or having your benefits/bargaining rights/pay cut, then there will be weak demand in those markets. Companies won't hire if they don't expect stronger demand than their current employees can handle.

28 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:17:19am

Well, of course, the joke in all this is that Walker isn't demanding the unions lose collective bargaining because they refused cuts and concessions. He's demanding it while also flatly refusing to even consider bargaining in good faith. I'm not sure how, based on this, any reasonable person can come to any conclusion other than this being an attempt to weaken/kill unions for political purposes. Sadly, I'm not sure how many voters are truly reasonable...

29 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:18:50am

re: #26 Decatur Deb

You should flee somewhere--maybe France.

Why is it every time I comment on this blog, someone tries to change the subject to France?

30 recusancy  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:25:10am

Reading the whole legislative proposal that Walker submitted you'll find:

If this isn't the best summary of the goals of modern conservatism, I don't know what is. It's like a highlight reel of all of the tomahawk dunks of neo-Gilded Age corporatism: privatization, no-bid contracts, deregulation, and naked cronyism. Extra bonus points for the explicit effort to legally redefine the term "public interest" as "whatever the energy industry lobbyists we appoint to these unelected bureaucratic positions say it is."
31 andres  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:25:44am

re: #26 Decatur Deb

You should flee somewhere--maybe France.

If I move out of Puerto Rico, France would be on the top 5 places to go.

32 iossarian  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:29:59am

re: #30 recusancy

Reading the whole legislative proposal that Walker submitted you'll find:

Props for whoever dug that up, and to you for citing it. That should be on the front page.

33 Michael McBacon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:30:55am

re: #30 recusancy

It's ironic how much of "modern" conservatism is actually Paleo-Conservatism, no?

34 recusancy  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:32:25am

re: #32 iossarian

Props for whoever dug that up, and to you for citing it. That should be on the front page.

Via my new favorite blogger E.D. Kain. There's nothing better then a new convert.

35 recusancy  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:33:03am

re: #33 UNIXon

It's ironic how much of "modern" conservatism is actually Paleo-Conservatism, no?

The world is an Ayn Rand novel. We're just living in it.

36 Kragar  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:33:51am

re: #35 recusancy

The world is an Ayn Rand novel. We're just living in it.

Well shit.

37 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:34:24am

re: #35 recusancy

The world is an Ayn Rand novel. We're just living in it.

I'd rather think we're starting Dos Pasos' USA.

38 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:44:31am

I just read a little attitude adjustment over at Facebook.

Consider if you paid teachers what you paid babysitters, $3.00 an hour per kid. Assuming the class size was thirty children and the school year was 180 days a teacher would make $105,300 for the school year.

Under these assumptions considering the average teacher pay nationwide is $50,000 teachers are actually making $1.42 per hour for not just looking after our children but educating them as well.

Lazy overpaid commies! //

39 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:46:38am

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just a random thought, does Jim have one bowl he uses for all his haircuts or a variety depending on his schedule?

Somebody else cuts his hair.

Would you trust him with sharp objects?

40 Kragar  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:48:43am

re: #39 Romantic Heretic

Somebody else cuts his hair.

Would you trust him with sharp objects?

What about these?

41 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:50:45am

re: #35 recusancy

The world is an Ayn Rand novel. We're just living in it.

In other words we're busy proving that Marx was right about how capitalistic societies work. semi/

42 Lidane  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:51:37am

re: #18 prononymous

I have a feeling republicans are going to seriously regret all this overreach at the next elections.

It's 1994 all over again. Seriously. Except none of these idiots remember what happened the last time. They think the teabaggers will carry them to another victory in 2012.

43 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:52:08am

re: #40 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What about these?

That would explain the quality of his hair, yes. A five year old isn't going to be big on complex styling.

44 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:54:26am

re: #7 Big Steve

There is a little talked about unexpected consequence of all this school budget crunching going in in most states. In the 80's and 90's the business world gave up the ghost about the employer - employee loyalty expectations. Wave after wave of layoffs obliterated this. Now a days, in the private sector, employees expect to move from job to job over their career and employers don't bat an eyelash at ordering layoffs.

The public sector, in particular schools have not yet been hit by this. Having been a school board member, I have seen reports on this. Teachers have incredible loyalty to their districts and will stay put even when other districts near by pay better. They get to know their subjects, schools, kids and parents and are not willing to make a school change. Retention rates in most well regarded school districts would be the envy of most private businesses.

Now, however, there will be layoffs of teachers who are actually doing a good job across the country. This will likely lead to the same effect that happened in the private sector over the past two decades...that the loyalty expectations will be broken. This will then lead, once the tax roles rebound, to more and more teachers willing to job hop for higher pay. This will spiral up teacher pay. Some view this as a good thing, some a bad thing, but the law of unintended consequences will have its day here.

I think even the best teachers are overworked, underpaid and under appreciated. The three things that balanced out these negatives were they like kids more than other adults do, relative job stability, and good benefits. If you remove the last two and are left with the first, that will hardly be enough to attract and keep smart, capable people in the teaching profession. We need more incentives to attract and retain teachers not less, and that seems to be lost in the conversation about teachers and teachers unions. There is already a shortage of adults who would want to spend all day with other people's children and we seem to be headed towards decreasing that number even more. If we keep sown this path school districts all over America will be like Detroit with 60 kids per class.

45 LoWil  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:56:04am

re: #38 Romantic Heretic

I think for this assesment to be a little more accurate, you would need to include the cost of benefits in this as well.

46 andres  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:56:45am

re: #23 Shiplord Kirel

I really think that the whole meme of unions destroying competitiveness is horse manure. For example, we no longer build merchant ships in this country. Practically anyone who knows about this will claim that it happened because of excessive union demands. If that is so, how come countries like Finland and Denmark, where unions are at least as strong as here, remain competitive in shipbuilding? The stock libertarian answer would be that they have government subsidies. However, the industry in this country was (and still is) virtually subsidized by the extensive construction of warships, something that Finland and Denmark don't do on anything like the same scale.

It maybe horse manure, but it's simple. Most people, especially those that follow politics casually, like simple concepts.

re: #7 Big Steve

There is a little talked about unexpected consequence of all this school budget crunching going in in most states. In the 80's and 90's the business world gave up the ghost about the employer - employee loyalty expectations. Wave after wave of layoffs obliterated this. Now a days, in the private sector, employees expect to move from job to job over their career and employers don't bat an eyelash at ordering layoffs.

The public sector, in particular schools have not yet been hit by this. Having been a school board member, I have seen reports on this. Teachers have incredible loyalty to their districts and will stay put even when other districts near by pay better. They get to know their subjects, schools, kids and parents and are not willing to make a school change. Retention rates in most well regarded school districts would be the envy of most private businesses.

Now, however, there will be layoffs of teachers who are actually doing a good job across the country. This will likely lead to the same effect that happened in the private sector over the past two decades...that the loyalty expectations will be broken. This will then lead, once the tax roles rebound, to more and more teachers willing to job hop for higher pay. This will spiral up teacher pay. Some view this as a good thing, some a bad thing, but the law of unintended consequences will have its day here.

I think this is also an important, but often ignore, issue. Employee loyalty is highly underrated, and very important. Sure, you can throw more money to keep them, but that's like riding a bear and feeding it with honey treats: the bear will let you ride as long as he isn't hungry. Once you can't feed the bear, you are on your own. And in the case of employees, once you can't offer them more money to stay, they'll leave (thankfully, they won't eat you like the bear). How long they will stay with you will depend on how loyal are to their company.

If you don't try to cultivate that loyalty, don't expect them to stick with you for long. If you do try to cultivate their loyalty, most will stick with you thru thick and thin.

47 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:58:51am

re: #45 LoWil

re: #45 LoWil

I think for this assesment to be a little more accurate, you would need to include the cost of benefits in this as well.

And how much do you think that will increase their hourly pay? $0.50 an hour? $1.00?

How generous of us. /

48 andres  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:12:13pm

re: #47 Romantic Heretic

re: #45 LoWil

And how much do you think that will increase their hourly pay? $0.50 an hour? $1.00?

How generous of us. /

And more importantly, contrary to a babysitter, a teacher isn't only in charge of taking care of your kids. They are suppose to educate them. How much would that rise what we ought to pay a teacher?

49 Gus  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:26:19pm

That seems like it would be a rather controversial compromise with the unions considering that it would create a moratorium on collective bargaining until 2013. However, Sen. Dale Schultz should be lauded for at least offering a compromise which could be either acceptable or utilized as a foundation for modified versions and cooperation.

Jim Hoft and the rest of the far-right are obviously not interested in a compromise nor fiscal issues as much as they are in the complete dismantling of unions in Wisconsin and across the USA. It's a strange world when these same people see a 2 year moratorium on collective bargaining as a "liberal" offer.

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:36:25pm

re: #41 Romantic Heretic

In other words we're busy proving that Marx was right about how capitalistic societies work. semi/

Marx observed, very accurately, how capitalism worked in the nineteenth century. Love the man, hate him, blame him for the Soviet Union and Mao...he was hardly the only one who noticed that capitalism was killing people.

In the decades following his observations, a lot of people made similar observation, and worked for change. We created a new kind of capitalism in the West, one in which the rule of law, and the rights of man balanced the soulless drive to profit.

Now there are scumbags abroad who want to take us back.

51 LoWil  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:42:29pm

So when the economy takes a turn for the worst, is it fair that every other profession that's not on the government's payroll has to tighten their belts and purse strings but not those on the public payroll?

Is it unreasonable for teacher's to pay half the cost of their pensions?

Is it unreasonable that they contribute more to their health insurance premiums?

Why stop there though? If it's not fair to ask this of teacher's, there are other professions out there that are equally valuable to society that are not immune to the changing economy, should the tax payers also not take care of them as well (Doctors?? Nurses??)?

Here's a link to the total compensation of teacher's, and as you can see, some districts do compensate over $100,000.00 a year.

[Link: www.wasb.org...]

52 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:44:54pm

re: #51 LoWil

The Teachers' Union has offered to accept amended contracts. Walker refuses to negotiate.

So, the Teachers' Union agrees with you. Take it up with Walker.

53 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:44:55pm

re: #51 LoWil

So when the economy takes a turn for the worst, is it fair that every other profession that's not on the government's payroll has to tighten their belts and purse strings but not those on the public payroll?

Since this doesn't happen, I have no idea what you're talking about.

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:46:16pm

re: #51 LoWil

So when the economy takes a turn for the worst, is it fair that every other profession that's not on the government's payroll has to tighten their belts and purse strings but not those on the public payroll?

Is it unreasonable for teacher's to pay half the cost of their pensions?

Is it unreasonable that they contribute more to their health insurance premiums?

Why stop there though? If it's not fair to ask this of teacher's, there are other professions out there that are equally valuable to society that are not immune to the changing economy, should the tax payers also not take care of them as well (Doctors?? Nurses??)?

Here's a link to the total compensation of teacher's, and as you can see, some districts do compensate over $100,000.00 a year.

[Link: www.wasb.org...]

Two things here--one, I agree that the unions may have to make some real sacrifices of things that they want, even knowing that getting back some of this in better times may be a struggle.

But giving up collective bargaining is a whole different ball of wax.

55 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:46:22pm

re: #51 LoWil

Sure, it's fair to ask them to make some concessions. It's just, you know, not what is happening here, where the unions are, you know, agreeing to the cuts. That's not what Walker actually cares about. He wants to bust unions, not actually save the state money.

56 LoWil  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:51:09pm

I agree that collective bargaining shouldn't be completely dismantled, although I believe the pendulum has swung too far in the union's favor in recent years, I don't think it should swing too far the other way either. Both sides need to work together to find that middle ground, and that involves the Democrats coming back to make a vote and Walker being able to compromise on some points.

That being said, I would work for pennies if I could be a high school art teacher. I think that would be the best job in the whole word.

57 recusancy  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:53:35pm

re: #56 LoWil

I agree that collective bargaining shouldn't be completely dismantled, although I believe the pendulum has swung too far in the union's favor in recent years, I don't think it should swing too far the other way either. Both sides need to work together to find that middle ground, and that involves the Democrats coming back to make a vote and Walker being able to compromise on some points.

That being said, I would work for pennies if I could be a high school art teacher. I think that would be the best job in the whole word.

You wouldn't work for pennies because you wouldn't be able to feed yourself. That's such a bullshit statement. If you want it so bad go for it. No one's stopping you from becoming an art teacher.

58 recusancy  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:55:16pm

re: #56 LoWil

I agree that collective bargaining shouldn't be completely dismantled, although I believe the pendulum has swung too far in the union's favor in recent years, I don't think it should swing too far the other way either. Both sides need to work together to find that middle ground, and that involves the Democrats coming back to make a vote and Walker being able to compromise on some points.

That being said, I would work for pennies if I could be a high school art teacher. I think that would be the best job in the whole word.

What pendulum? What do you think should happen. The unions have agreed to compensatory concessions. What else do you want from them if you don't want to take away their bargaining rights?

59 Gus  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:56:37pm

re: #51 LoWil

So when the economy takes a turn for the worst, is it fair that every other profession that's not on the government's payroll has to tighten their belts and purse strings but not those on the public payroll?

Is it unreasonable for teacher's to pay half the cost of their pensions?

Is it unreasonable that they contribute more to their health insurance premiums?

Why stop there though? If it's not fair to ask this of teacher's, there are other professions out there that are equally valuable to society that are not immune to the changing economy, should the tax payers also not take care of them as well (Doctors?? Nurses??)?

Here's a link to the total compensation of teacher's, and as you can see, some districts do compensate over $100,000.00 a year.

[Link: www.wasb.org...]

So the notion that high salaries attract the best and the brightest only applies to Wall Street business executive and not the rest of our citizens? 100-thousand a year full compensation probably hovers around a salary of approximately 70,000 a year. This would be for an experienced teacher with an advanced degree.

That, sounds like a reasonable salary for any professional with talent and experience and one that I would expect, even without an advanced degree, it I was working full time.

On of the districts with 100K full compensation is Paris J1 in Kenosha, WI. That very same school district gets a rating of 10 out of 10 indicating that it is an excellent school. Others give it a rating of 5 stars:

Nominated for the U.S. Department of Education's 2011 Blue Ribbon Schools Award, Paris School embodies all that makes a school GREAT--superior K-8 academic and social standards, superior student achievement, ongoing character education, and a positive and peaceful school environment. The school's progressive administrator and exemplary teaching staff put students first. As a result, Paris School students believe in themselves, believe that it's "cool" to do their best, work hard, be kind, and, best of all, be SMART!

Higher compensation usually come along with excellence. This is not only common sense but reflective of free-market and capitalist principles. To argue that these teachers should be payed average to below average salaries is not only against common sense but against the notion of free-market compensation.

60 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:58:56pm

re: #56 LoWil

I agree that collective bargaining shouldn't be completely dismantled, although I believe the pendulum has swung too far in the union's favor in recent years, I don't think it should swing too far the other way either. Both sides need to work together to find that middle ground, and that involves the Democrats coming back to make a vote and Walker being able to compromise on some points.

That being said, I would work for pennies if I could be a high school art teacher. I think that would be the best job in the whole word.

What? "Swung too far in the union's favor in recent years"? Where on Earth do you get that idea from? Unions have been on the decline for decades. If anything, unions just appear to be living high now due to the fact that, in many cases, they're the only jobs left with real benefits, pensions, wages, etc. I mean, if we want to continue our race to the bottom in how we treat our workforce, I guess it's true that unions need to be weakened.

61 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:59:18pm

Given that it takes a specific amount of energy to look after one child and the amount of energy per child drops as the number of children goes up, then eventually the amount of energy necessary to look after a particular child goes negative. It only makes sense to fire as many teachers as necessary to make the class size conducive to negative energy expenditure and recoup some education costs from the teachers lucky enough to have oversize classes.

62 Gus  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:02:56pm

And furthermore on Kenosha, WI:

Public schools

The Kenosha Unified School District operates 24 public elementary schools, six middle schools, seven charter schools, and seven major high schools: Mary D. Bradford High School, George Nelson Tremper High School, Indian Trail Academy, Indian Trail High School, Lakeview Tech Academy, Reuther Central High School and Harborside Academy, the latter a research school that uses the Expeditionary Learning Outward Bound model; it was funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. 80% of Kenosha's fourth-graders score 'proficient' and 'advanced' gradings on reading tests, according to National Assessment of Educational Progress tests. According to the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction, Kenosha's 2008 public-school graduation rate of 84.1% was ahead of the national average.

63 blueraven  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:03:05pm

re: #51 LoWil

So when the economy takes a turn for the worst, is it fair that every other profession that's not on the government's payroll has to tighten their belts and purse strings but not those on the public payroll?

Is it unreasonable for teacher's to pay half the cost of their pensions?

Is it unreasonable that they contribute more to their health insurance premiums?

Why stop there though? If it's not fair to ask this of teacher's, there are other professions out there that are equally valuable to society that are not immune to the changing economy, should the tax payers also not take care of them as well (Doctors?? Nurses??)?

Here's a link to the total compensation of teacher's, and as you can see, some districts do compensate over $100,000.00 a year.

[Link: www.wasb.org...]

Try to keep up. This is not about compensation since the teachers union have already agreed to the cuts.

64 andres  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:09:45pm

re: #56 LoWil

That being said, I would work for pennies if I could be a high school art teacher. I think that would be the best job in the whole word.

Then do what you preach. Quit your current job, go to your local high school, and tell them that you will be their art teacher working for pennies.

65 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 2:28:29pm

re: #56 LoWil

I agree that collective bargaining shouldn't be completely dismantled, although I believe the pendulum has swung too far in the union's favor in recent years, I don't think it should swing too far the other way either. Both sides need to work together to find that middle ground, and that involves the Democrats coming back to make a vote and Walker being able to compromise on some points.

That being said, I would work for pennies if I could be a high school art teacher. I think that would be the best job in the whole word.

Some of my art teachers did work for pennies.

And then they left the district, because they couldn't make ends meet. One now works as a building manager because he couldn't afford to teach.

And yeah, he was awesome.

66 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 2:29:52pm

re: #63 blueraven

Try to keep up. This is not about compensation since the teachers union have already agreed to the cuts.

just more talking points being repeated by someone we've mever seen before


I wonder if every guy that does this knows he was exactly like the last 30 guys that came to LGF, let loose some GOP talking points, and then disappeared?

67 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:12:07pm

re: #66 WindUpBird

just more talking points being repeated by someone we've mever seen before

I wonder if every guy that does this knows he was exactly like the last 30 guys that came to LGF, let loose some GOP talking points, and then disappeared?

Amazing, isn't it? I especially liked the guy who popped up out of nowhere to say that no federal money should go to Planned Parenthood for abortions, then just vanished when people pointed out that PP already gets no federal money for abortions.

68 Steve Dutch  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:57:23pm

Before everyone gets all giddy about Walker's platform collapsing, note this. The governor in Wisconsin has very broad line-item veto powers. The final bill might have a provision restoring collective bargaining at some point, but all Walker has to do is cross it out. The Legislature can try to override it, but that's an uphill battle.

69 Steve Dutch  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:59:36pm

re: #66 WindUpBird

Yeah, let's not click on his link and contaminate all these nice pristine opinions with actual information.

70 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:13:58pm

re: #69 SteveDutch

Yeah, let's not bother to understand why this isn't about compensation.


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