Islam, Sharia Law, and Paranoia

Drawing the line between rational criticism of reactionary Islam and paranoid bigotry
Opinion • Views: 21,492

Here’s an excellent post at ScienceBlogs by Ed Brayton, on his view of Islam and Sharia Law. I could have written this myself; I agree with every word.

Let me first state the obvious: Radical Islam — which probably should be called reactionary Islam instead — is the single most dangerous and malevolent ideology on the planet today. Any ideology that contains the idea that one is justified in killing those who disagree with us or who “insult” — i.e. criticize — our views is fundamentally dangerous from the very start.

Reactionary Islam is opposed to every core value I hold — liberty, equality, decency, rationality. It is anti-science and anti-reason. It is fundamentally barbaric in its treatment of women, sexual minorities, infidels, heretics and apostates (which happen to be some of my favorite kinds of people).

I’ll go further: Anyone who thinks that God tells them to kill people for being apostates or unbelievers is a barbarian, and quite likely insane. Anyone who thinks it is okay to kill those who criticize their religion is a barbarian, and quite likely insane. Anyone who thinks that it is okay to beat women for being disobedient or stone someone for being gay is evil in a way that I will never comprehend.

And no, I do not think that modern Christianity, even at its worst, is anywhere near the threat that Islam is. Yes, there are Christian Reconstructionists with their own dangerous — and remarkably similar — ideology. But they are a tiny fringe with little power. Meanwhile there are whole nations like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia that enforce the most barbaric aspects of Islamic law.

I am the last person on Earth that wants to see anything like Islamic law imposed anywhere, for the obvious reason that my head would be among the first on the chopping block after such a system was established. As someone who has reprinted the Danish cartoons and has defended victims of reactionary Islam like Salman Rushdie, I do not take such possibilities as an idle threat.

But here’s the thing. None of what I said above logically leads one to conclude either that all Muslims believe in such barbarism or that America is on the verge — or even, in our wildest dystopic imaginations, could be on the verge — of being taken over by Muslim radicals who will impose Sharia law on us. Nor does it logically flow from anything I’ve said above that Muslims in this country are suddenly no longer covered by either statutory or constitutional protections of their equal rights.

This is why I mock those who insist that there are no moderate or reasonable Muslims in the world — because I actually know some of them. The morning that the Prop 8 ruling came down a few months ago overturning the anti-gay law in California, the first phone call I got celebrating that fact was from a Muslim friend.

Read the whole thing…

Jump to bottom

504 comments

1 researchok  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:43:27pm

Brayton makes an excellent point overall.

Geography plays a big role in religious expression.

For which we all ought to be most grateful.

2 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:47:41pm

re: #1 researchok

Brayton makes an excellent point overall.

Geography plays a big role in religious expression.

For which we all ought to be most grateful.

I am most grateful for oceans.

3 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:48:25pm

What is this guy talking about...

And no, I do not think that modern Christianity, even at its worst, is anywhere near the threat that Islam is. Yes, there are Christian Reconstructionists with their own dangerous — and remarkably similar — ideology. But they are a tiny fringe with little power. Meanwhile there are whole nations like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia that enforce the most barbaric aspects of Islamic law.

Bullshit... that's the American Taliban he's talking about. Hide your women and children.

4 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:50:18pm

You're being extra dickish today, Walter. Somebody pee in your cornflakes this morning?

5 researchok  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:51:10pm

re: #3 Walter L. Newton

What is this guy talking about...

Bullshit... that's the American Taliban he's talking about. Hide your women and children.

What- you expected no relativism and perfect analysis?

I'll take the overall point.

And by the way, are have chipmunked any pastry?

6 researchok  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:51:37pm

re: #5 researchok

PIMF

7 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:52:03pm

re: #6 researchok

PIMF

I was wondering...

8 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:52:15pm

re: #7 brookly red

I was wondering...

I still am?

9 researchok  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:52:42pm

re: #7 brookly red

I was wondering...

Again with the phone and commenting.

10 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:54:04pm

re: #9 researchok

Again with the phone and commenting.

I nominate "are have chipmunked any pastry?" for a rotating title... anyone care to second that?

11 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:55:03pm

re: #10 brookly red

I nominate "are have chipmunked any pastry?" for a rotating title... anyone care to second that?

I still want a translation of what he meant to say.

12 researchok  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:55:39pm

re: #10 brookly red

I nominate "are have chipmunked any pastry?" for a rotating title... anyone care to second that?

When Walter was on holidays I'd think about all the patesseries.

I have no willpower in that regard.

13 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:55:49pm

re: #10 brookly red

I nominate "are have chipmunked any pastry?" for a rotating title... anyone care to second that?

I would, but I'd rather not end my streak of disagreeing with you.

/

14 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:56:07pm
As an example, if there is a dispute between two Jewish butchers in a Jewish community over which one of them is following the proper procedure for kosher butchering, I have no problem with having a religious court decide such things. The same would be true of Muslim butchers and halal food.


Halal soup iz islamification!
/crazy pam

15 researchok  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:56:41pm

re: #11 Walter L. Newton

I still want a translation of what he meant to say.

I wanted to ask if you stashed any pastries from Paris in your freezer.

Chipmunking- its a verb.

16 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:56:59pm

re: #12 researchok

When Walter was on holidays I'd think about all the patesseries.

I have no willpower in that regard.

oh, thats right... he went to France how could I have forgotten?

now about those chipmunks?

17 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:58:48pm

re: #3 Walter L. Newton

What is this guy talking about...

Bullshit... that's the American Taliban he's talking about. Hide your women and children.

really? Christian Reconstructionists are rounding up women and killing them for not being modest enough?

18 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:59:52pm

re: #17 eclectic infidel

really? Christian Reconstructionists are rounding up women and killing them for not being modest enough?

Walk around the Walter trap.

19 Man on Fire  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:01:06pm

re: #17 eclectic infidel

No, they aren't, and mercifully they never will, because the rest of us can keep them on the fringe.

But reading them and reading about them sometimes, it gets hard not to wonder what they would be capable of if they had a cohesive force behind policies other than tax cuts for the rich and systemwide deregulation.

Would Bryan Fischer stone a gay man if he knew he could avoid punishment? I have no idea. But that's the point, I can't say he wouldn't.

20 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:01:15pm

re: #18 JasonA

Walk around the Walter trap.

I know, I know. Just having fun. Taking a break from studying is all.

21 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:01:42pm

I feel the same way as the OP. IMO, radical Islam is the worst religious threat we face today. Not to diminish the social conservative threat.

But the right wing reaction to all Islam is just lunacy. Islam spans a rich constellation of cultures with an interesting history and good food. We can fight radical Islam without alienating the good people from these wonderful cultures.

22 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:02:05pm

daddy's little girl just sent me this music vid to see what I thought...I dig it, alot

makes me wonder what else her producer has up his sleeve

23 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:02:23pm

re: #15 researchok

I wanted to ask if you stashed any pastries from Paris in your freezer.

Chipmunking- its a verb.

Ok... the "chipmunking" totally threw me. No, the only food stuff we brought home from Paris was 2 jars of Dijon mustard, 1 jar of a date jelly and a "brick" of fig pate', which looks like a kilo of opiated hash.

The closest bakery was about 10 feet from the door of our hotel, run by a nice Turkish family... we couldn't pass by the place either coming or going without stopping in. It got to the point the owner was putting freebies into the bag as a thank you for our patronage.

To die for.

24 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:05:31pm

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Ok... the "chipmunking" totally threw me. No, the only food stuff we brought home from Paris was 2 jars of Dijon mustard, 1 jar of a date jelly and a "brick" of fig pate', which looks like a kilo of opiated hash.

The closest bakery was about 10 feet from the door of our hotel, run by a nice Turkish family... we couldn't pass by the place either coming or going without stopping in. It got to the point the owner was putting freebies into the bag as a thank you for our patronage.

To die for.

what is this?
fig pate you peasant!,
please step over here sir... and keep your hands where I can see them.

25 researchok  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:07:08pm

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Ok... the "chipmunking" totally threw me. No, the only food stuff we brought home from Paris was 2 jars of Dijon mustard, 1 jar of a date jelly and a "brick" of fig pate', which looks like a kilo of opiated hash.

The closest bakery was about 10 feet from the door of our hotel, run by a nice Turkish family... we couldn't pass by the place either coming or going without stopping in. It got to the point the owner was putting freebies into the bag as a thank you for our patronage.

To die for.

Just so you know, I hate you.
//

26 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:07:26pm

re: #4 Charles

You're being extra dickish today, Walter. Somebody pee in your cornflakes this morning?

He needs more fiber

27 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:07:40pm

re: #25 researchok

Just so you know, I hate you.
//

Most people do... get in line.

28 zora  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:08:14pm

re: #22 albusteve

her voice is incredible. love her singing "make you feel my love".

29 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:08:55pm

re: #26 sattv4u2

He needs more fiber

no he seems quite regular...

30 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:09:10pm

re: #22 albusteve

daddy's little girl just sent me this music vid to see what I thought...I dig it, alot


[Video]makes me wonder what else her producer has up his sleeve

That was effen awesome!

31 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:10:09pm

Hmmmm... my outgoing email server has been screwed up all afternoon... I'm getting mail, can't send anything.

32 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:10:16pm

re: #28 zora

her voice is incredible. love her singing "make you feel my love".


[Video]

hey, thanks for that....surfing here

33 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:11:03pm

re: #31 Walter L. Newton

Hmmm... my outgoing email server has been screwed up all afternoon... I'm getting mail, can't send anything.

maybe it needs more fiber!!

34 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:11:16pm

re: #30 HoosierHoops

That was effen awesome!

yeah....she's got the sort of chops that I dig

35 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:13:20pm

re: #31 Walter L. Newton

Hmmm... my outgoing email server has been screwed up all afternoon... I'm getting mail, can't send anything.

have you noticed any helicopters around?

36 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:15:20pm

re: #35 brookly red

have you noticed any helicopters around?

the tinfoil on the roof keeps them away.............

37 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:16:09pm

re: #36 wozzablog

the tinfoil on the roof keeps them away...

no I think they have found you...

38 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:17:16pm

re: #33 sattv4u2

re: #35 brookly red

Maybe I need to piss on it!

I just called support... they're working on it. I've been on this ISP for about two years now, own a number of domains hosted there, rarely ever a problem.

39 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:17:54pm

re: #33 sattv4u2

maybe it needs more fiber!!

chipmunks don't have much fiber :(

40 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:19:09pm

re: #39 brookly red

chipmunks don't have much fiber :(

Chipmunks

The other OTHER white meat!

41 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:19:30pm

re: #38 Walter L. Newton

re: #35 brookly red

Maybe I need to piss on it!

I just called support... they're working on it. I've been on this ISP for about two years now, own a number of domains hosted there, rarely ever a problem.

I don't know all that much about electrical things, but I do know that you should unplug them before pissing on them. Just saying.

42 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:20:07pm

re: #38 Walter L. Newton

re: #35 brookly red

Maybe I need to piss on it!

I just called support... they're working on it. I've been on this ISP for about two years now, own a number of domains hosted there, rarely ever a problem.

Just pour some from your bowl of Cornflakes!

43 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:20:49pm

re: #41 brookly red

I don't know all that much about electrical things, but I do know that you should unplug them before pissing on them. Just saying.

I've never pissed on nor plugged in a chipmunk

(that I'm aware of)

44 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:23:27pm

I am not paranoid, but I can just feel some one out there is making a chipmunk pizza... I am not paranoid.

45 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:23:39pm

re: #38 Walter L. Newton

re: #35 brookly red

Maybe I need to piss on it!

I just called support... they're working on it. I've been on this ISP for about two years now, own a number of domains hosted there, rarely ever a problem.

How are things in India today!?!?

46 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:25:43pm

re: #44 brookly red

I am not paranoid, but I can just feel some one out there is making a chipmunk pizza... I am not paranoid.


Haven't seen chipmunk here--could probably get you squirrel.

47 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:26:36pm

re: #46 Decatur Deb

Haven't seen chipmunk here--could probably get you squirrel.

He's easy to find

Just look for Moose

48 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:26:37pm

re: #44 brookly red

I am not paranoid, but I can just feel some one out there is making a chipmunk pizza... I am not paranoid.

System Of A Chipmunk - Pizza Pie

49 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:26:45pm

re: #22 albusteve

daddy's little girl just sent me this music vid to see what I thought...I dig it, alot


[Video]makes me wonder what else her producer has up his sleeve

That's way cool. It's nice when the words sound like words.

50 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:26:45pm

re: #46 Decatur Deb

Haven't seen chipmunk here--could probably get you squirrel.

same difference

51 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:27:14pm

re: #45 sattv4u2

How are things in India today!?!?

LOL... you nailed that.

52 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:27:32pm

re: #47 sattv4u2

He's easy to find

Just look for Moose

kill moose, kill squirrel.

53 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:28:04pm

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

LOL... you nailed that.

An easy one

My company has an entire dept based there (called "Cable Protection")

54 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:28:15pm

Speaking of Islam and paranoid bigotry.....

Buffalo's Muslims Battle Stereotype After Murder
by DINA TEMPLE-RASTON

February 21, 2011
It only took a Buffalo, N.Y., jury an hour earlier this month to find Muzzamil "Mo" Hassan, the founder of a Muslim-oriented suburban television station, guilty of beheading his wife, Aasiya. The killing received national attention not just because it was brutal — but because both the killer and his victim were Muslim.

When Aasiya Hassan was murdered in 2009, some journalists immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was an honor killing — but it wasn't. And the Muslim community in the Buffalo area has been fighting the stereotype for the last two years.

[Link: www.npr.org...]

55 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:29:04pm

Sort of on topic...

"Extremist cleric to lead White House protest calling for Muslims to 'rise up and establish Islamic state in America' "

British extremist Anjem Choudary - who once said 'the flag of Islam will fly over the White House' - has announced he will lead a demonstration calling on Muslims to establish the Sharia law across America.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

56 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:30:11pm

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Sort of on topic...

"Extremist cleric to lead White House protest calling for Muslims to 'rise up and establish Islamic state in America' "

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

he has a squirrel!?!?!

57 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:31:16pm

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Sort of on topic...

"Extremist cleric to lead White House protest calling for Muslims to 'rise up and establish Islamic state in America' "

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Glory be.

I wonder how many people he can get together for this protest?

58 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:32:11pm

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Sort of on topic...

"Extremist cleric to lead White House protest calling for Muslims to 'rise up and establish Islamic state in America' "

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

I am not worried till they form a cleric's union... then it's on!

59 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:32:24pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

Glory be.

I wonder how many people he can get together for this protest?

I have no idea.

60 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:32:41pm

re: #47 sattv4u2

He's easy to find

Just look for Moose

I've posted this before, but it shows that squirrels are an important medium of exchange here. We don't hold with fiat currency.

Man Offers Dead Squirrels in Prostitution Sting
Associated Press
Dateline:XXXXXX, Ala.

Two women walking aXXXXX street in the wee hours got quite an offer from a good ol’ boy driving a pickup: How about sex in return for SOME of the squirrels he’d shot. The women brushed off the offer, but the man soon returned to sweeten the pot. How about the broken down washing machine he was hauling in the bed of his pickup truck? That didn’t work either, so persistent fellow made his final offer. $6 in cash. Luckily for the man, the two women – working undercover in a prostitution sting for XXXX police and the Alabama Bureau of Investigation – sent him on his way without any charges. But police said six other men were willing to produce an appropriate amount of cash Tuesday morning, and they were arrested on misdemeanor charges of soliciting prostitution.

61 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:33:28pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

Glory be.

I wonder how many people he can get together for this protest?

NO falafel for you!

62 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:35:45pm

re: #56 sattv4u2

he has a squirrel!?!?!

(((Anjem Choudary,,, not Walter,,, I have no idea if Walter has a squirrel, but I have my suspicions!!)))

63 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:36:50pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

Glory be.

I wonder how many people he can get together for this protest?

Maybe this will help...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

These seem to be isolated events, only one of the events have a number of protestors mentioned...

"On Feb 18, 2006, the Islamic Thinkers Society participated in a demonstration against Danish cartoons that portrayed the Prophet Muhammed as a terrorist.[9] The rally, which was organized by the Muslim Leadership Council, brought over one thousand Muslims to protest the cartoons across from the Danish Consulate in Manhattan."

Anyone's guess, I suspect.

64 danhenry1  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:38:58pm

Sorry Charles went to the site, meant to put it here. I sometimes type faster than I think...often. May have to clean up a bit. No offense meant to anyone, other than!
Maybe off the path maybe not.
And for a great sailing adventure. Seems that the folks on the sailing yacht,"Quest", were on a voyage to distribute the Bible throughout the world...Great, you want to do that then go ahead. So they sail into known Pirate waters, and now it may be up to the US Navy, or another navy, or marines or whom ever to go rescue their butts. I can understand policing the seas, but to have to put at risk our fighting men and women, and those of other nations, for the sake of 'ones own' religious beliefs...seems a real spiral downward.
Well then maybe saving someone from Wahhabism?

65 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:40:55pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

Glory be.

I wonder how many people he can get together for this protest?

I want to see them in Lafayette Square, just to see which side of the street Pam G. stands on.

66 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:41:41pm

re: #64 danhenry1

I'm sure all that means something to someone somewhere!

67 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:42:00pm

on the bright side my local assembly people just voted down a 1.3 million dollar proposal to install lifts to aid obese squirrels back into their trees...

68 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:43:05pm

re: #67 brookly red

on the bright side my local assembly people just voted down a 1.3 million dollar proposal to install lifts to aid obese squirrels back into their trees...

But on the down side is that they approved 2.6 million dollars to lower the trees!!!

69 Linden Arden  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:43:45pm

Ed Brayton is a superb Liberaltarian writer - I read Science blogs as well.

A Liberaltarian is a rational Libertarian - by the way.

70 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:43:49pm

re: #64 danhenry1

Sorry Charles went to the site, meant to put it here. I sometimes type faster than I think...often. May have to clean up a bit. No offense meant to anyone, other than!
Maybe off the path maybe not.
And for a great sailing adventure. Seems that the folks on the sailing yacht,"Quest", were on a voyage to distribute the Bible throughout the world...Great, you want to do that then go ahead. So they sail into known Pirate waters, and now it may be up to the US Navy, or another navy, or marines or whom ever to go rescue their butts. I can understand policing the seas, but to have to put at risk our fighting men and women, and those of other nations, for the sake of 'ones own' religious beliefs...seems a real spiral downward.
Well then maybe saving someone from Wahhabism?

I'm half attempted to say screw those lunatics, but they are our people, Americans....we need to get them back to safety regardless

71 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:44:08pm

re: #68 sattv4u2

But on the down side is that they approved 2.6 million dollars to lower the trees!!!

f'en tree lowerers union has the district wrapped up.

72 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:45:49pm

re: #69 Linden Arden

Ed Brayton is a superb Liberaltarian writer - I read Science blogs as well.

A Liberaltarian is a rational Libertarian - by the way.

Is that the same as the old "Left-Libertarian" distinction?

73 ThomasLite  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:46:27pm

...wow. that's actually a rational, nuanced piece on islamic law. not easy to come by, indeed.

and as with all rational, nuanced speech, it got about 2 or 3 on topic comments before everyone drifted off about something to do with chipmunks.
and yet we wonder why nuance is, sometimes, so hard to find, hehe.

74 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:47:04pm

re: #72 Decatur Deb

Is that the same as the old "Left-Libertarian" distinction?

Free the people!
Regulate the money!

Works for me :)

75 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:48:45pm

OK,
spinach check,
onions check,
mushrooms check,
olives check,
anchovies check,

time to get a plain cheese pizza.

76 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:49:43pm

sailing music....chill

77 Linden Arden  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:49:52pm

re: #72 Decatur Deb

Is that the same as the old "Left-Libertarian" distinction?

Yes - but no left-liberaltarian wants 1800's "sound money" like the archaic driftwood old Ron Paul does.

We accept the modern notion of a central bank that prioritizes growth.

78 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:50:27pm

re: #73 ThomasLite

...wow. that's actually a rational, nuanced piece on islamic law. not easy to come by, indeed.

and as with all rational, nuanced speech, it got about 2 or 3 on topic comments before everyone drifted off about something to do with chipmunks.
and yet we wonder why nuance is, sometimes, so hard to find, hehe.

Well mama always said, ' Nuanced is what nuanced does '
*wink*

79 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:51:28pm

re: #75 brookly red

time to get a plain cheese pizza.

Sorry, these guys beat you to it.

80 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:51:58pm

re: #73 ThomasLite

...wow. that's actually a rational, nuanced piece on islamic law. not easy to come by, indeed.

and as with all rational, nuanced speech, it got about 2 or 3 on topic comments before everyone drifted off about something to do with chipmunks.
and yet we wonder why nuance is, sometimes, so hard to find, hehe.

Yea, some of us are just too stupid to understand the nuance, and we go right to being fascinated by bright shiny objects... I just learned to walk upright last week.

81 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:52:20pm

re: #79 publicityStunted

Sorry, these guys beat you to it.

who do you think Brookly was getting it for??

82 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:52:39pm

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

Yea, some of us are just too stupid to understand the nuance, and we go right to being fascinated by bright shiny objects... I just learned to walk upright last week.

show off!

83 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:54:28pm

re: #73 ThomasLite

Weren't you (one of) the guy that was stealthily downdinging a few threads ago!?!?

84 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:55:01pm

re: #81 sattv4u2

who do you think Brookly was getting it for??

ack! look at how thick the crust was... that photo was taken in Chicago for sure.

85 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:55:36pm

re: #84 brookly red

ack! look at how thick the crust was... that photo was taken in Chicago for sure.

Maybe it's not really thick

Maybe the squirrels are just really tiny!

86 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:55:53pm

re: #77 Linden Arden

Yes - but no left-liberaltarian wants 1800's "sound money" like the archaic driftwood old Ron Paul does.

We accept the modern notion of a central bank that prioritizes growth.

Reading the wiki--way too many "sub-ism's" with unique eponyms.

Note: There is a 'Charles W. Johnson' in the wiki discussion. Has someone been a naughty editor?

87 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:56:31pm

re: #84 brookly red

re: #85 sattv4u2

Maybe it's not really thick

Maybe the squirrels are just really tiny!

And the one on the left looks like (s)he's holding a wedding ring

88 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 4:57:31pm

re: #85 sattv4u2

Maybe it's not really thick

Maybe the squirrels are just really tiny!

what, they are under nourished cause of cuts in the school lunch program?

89 danhenry1  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:00:52pm

66 and 70...I know, somewhere...and those 'are our people', agreed.

Sailing music, yes..I gotta chill...I'm out of my element.

90 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:00:52pm

re: #87 sattv4u2

re: #85 sattv4u2

And the one on the left looks like (s)he's holding a wedding ring

even the squirrels can read the writing on the walls & are buying gold.

91 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:01:44pm

wow, that Brayton post was good stuff. Lawd i've missed this place.

92 ThomasLite  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:02:08pm

re: #83 sattv4u2

had a bit of a debate about that since; I think I adequately defended my dinging practice, it's at the end of the overnight thread.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
entirely tl;dr I realize, but if you perchance are wondering as to my motivation for the dinging, there it is.
(I managed to write 4000 characters without gravely insulting anyone, my mommy will be so proud!)

93 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:02:09pm

re: #91 Aceofwhat?

wow, that Brayton post was good stuff. Lawd i've missed this place.

Whereyabeen?

94 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:05:26pm

re: #92 ThomasLite

had a bit of a debate about that since; I think I adequately defended my dinging practice, it's at the end of the overnight thread.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
entirely tl;dr I realize, but if you perchance are wondering as to my motivation for the dinging, there it is.
(I managed to write 4000 characters without gravely insulting anyone, my mommy will be so proud!)

SO ,, you post a 4000 word tome on a dead thread 5 HOURS after the fact and that means you

adequately defended my dinging practice,


{sigh}

95 Linden Arden  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:07:06pm

Once someone says "Libertarian" it sets off conniption fits amongst the fans of such.

Authoritarian wingnuts think it means tax rates are being slashed while a police state moves in for moral purposes.

Leftists see the ACLU/Bill of Rights crowd in control where weed is legal and social issues are all cool now.

Net result = LP gets 1% of the vote nationwide.

96 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:07:16pm

re: #83 sattv4u2

Weren't you (one of) the guy that was stealthily downdinging a few threads ago!?!?

it would seem that there are stealthy updingers too...

97 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:07:17pm

re: #89 danhenry1

66 and 70...I know, somewhere...and those 'are our people', agreed.

Sailing music, yes..I gotta chill...I'm out of my element.

never sailed in deep water?...if not, do it before you die, and thank me later

98 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:08:07pm

re: #92 ThomasLite

had a bit of a debate about that since; I think I adequately defended my dinging practice, it's at the end of the overnight thread.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
entirely tl;dr I realize, but if you perchance are wondering as to my motivation for the dinging, there it is.
(I managed to write 4000 characters without gravely insulting anyone, my mommy will be so proud!)

It's polite to say stuff like that in a live thread. Burying it in a dead thread just makes it look like your covering yourself.

99 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:08:37pm

re: #92 ThomasLite

((((and btw ,,, shhhh,,, you're "explanation" is horse hockey pucks,,, you were downdinging in real time on the current subject matter to posters that were still active in the discussion,, but nice try))

Johnny ,,, do we have any parting gifts for this player!?!?!

100 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:08:49pm

re: #93 sattv4u2

Whereyabeen?

lots of traveling = lots of catching up with kids and wife. LGF, like my Xbox, suffers from deprioritization...

101 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:08:52pm

re: #96 brookly red

it would seem that there are stealthy updingers too...

I owe my new condo to those guys on a penny per-ding basis............

102 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:09:25pm

re: #98 wozzablog

It's polite to say stuff like that in a live thread. Burying it in a dead thread just makes it look like your covering yourself.

Hey! I just explained to him (on the dead thread) why it's ok to post on a dead thread!

Oh, well.

103 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:09:37pm

re: #98 wozzablog

It's polite to say stuff like that in a live thread. Burying it in a dead thread just makes it look like your covering yourself.

Zaccly ,, (see 94 and 99!!)

104 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:09:42pm

bbiab

105 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:09:51pm

re: #100 Aceofwhat?

lots of traveling = lots of catching up with kids and wife. LGF, like my Xbox, suffers from deprioritization...

Were they on the on again?

106 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:10:15pm

re: #102 wrenchwench

Hey! I just explained to him (on the dead thread) why it's ok to post on a dead thread!

Oh, well.

he'll downding it tomorrow, no worries...

107 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:10:47pm

re: #105 Walter L. Newton

Were they on the on again?

Were they on the run again? (PIMF)

108 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:11:24pm

re: #101 wozzablog

I owe my new condo to those guys on a penny per-ding basis...

yes, I have left here many a time with the scorn of most logged in posters only to return with a higher score. Silent majority?

109 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:11:35pm

re: #105 Walter L. Newton

Were they on the on again?

i'll have what he's having.

(unless that makes sense to everyone but me, in which case i'll just have another)

110 ThomasLite  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:11:43pm

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

Yea, some of us are just too stupid to understand the nuance, and we go right to being fascinated by bright shiny objects... I just learned to walk upright last week.

so if I understand correctly, you actually learned to call in airstrikes before you learned to walk upright. wow!
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #94 sattv4u2
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
wrenchwrench seems to disagree with you; what is it now? am refrain from posting in an old thread because it is futile, am I to post hoping someone will still spot it or am I supposed to just curl up in a little ball and cry because actually I don't have the time to be behind my PC all day (was halfway that thread when I had to go off to violin lessons) and that will make you guys hate me NO MATTER WHAT I DO? I replied where it was relevant as soon as I saw the attack on my person, posted a link here, saying he could read up on my explanation there...
what was I to do, barge in on an unrelated thread with my life's story? I'd think it'd be unpolite to do that :S
now I see theres a lot of new replies; I'll just click post and reply to the next in a further post.

111 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:12:58pm

re: #102 wrenchwench

Hey! I just explained to him (on the dead thread) why it's ok to post on a dead thread!

Oh, well.

Madam - i challenge you to netiquette at dawn..... choose your second.

112 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:13:12pm

By the way, if I disagree with Brayton on anything, it's that Dominionists are a "tiny fringe with little power." The fact is that there are quite a few highly placed Republican politicians who are Dominionists -- to name one, James Inhofe.

It's true they don't have much power as Dominionists, in the sense that their crazy beliefs are not mainstream and not accepted. But it's hard to deny that they have an outsized influence on policy -- and the current all-out war against women's rights is just one example.

113 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:13:56pm

re: #108 brookly red

yes, I have left here many a time with the scorn of most logged in posters only to return with a higher score. Silent majority?

A couple people, like SFZ, are very conscientious about reading all the way through a thread as they catch up. It looks like an invasion of army ants, if you watch in Masterspy.

114 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:14:08pm

re: #107 Walter L. Newton

Were they on the run again? (PIMF)

No, i run to Columbus (OH) each week. Also, my grandfather passed away a few weeks ago; i haven't had the time or desire to be on the internetz much recently.

115 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:15:19pm

re: #110 ThomasLite

wrenchwrench seems to disagree with you

Heres a word for you to look up

SARCASM!!

116 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:15:32pm

re: #3 Walter L. Newton

What is this guy talking about...

Bullshit... that's the American Taliban he's talking about. Hide your women and children.

Actually, I'd say that American Christian fundies do have a lot of power, and do represent a very significant threat.

117 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:15:39pm

re: #112 Charles

By the way, if I disagree with Brayton on anything, it's that Dominionists are a "tiny fringe with little power." The fact is that there are quite a few highly placed Republican politicians who are Dominionists -- to name one, James Inhofe.

It's true they don't have much power as Dominionists, in the sense that their crazy beliefs are not mainstream and not accepted. But it's hard to deny that they have an outsized influence on policy -- and the current all-out war against women's rights is just one example.

If he's talking about Christian Reconstructionists, they are a fragment of a fragment--and it's best to keep them that way.

118 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:15:42pm

re: #112 Charles

By the way, if I disagree with Brayton on anything, it's that Dominionists are a "tiny fringe with little power." The fact is that there are quite a few highly placed Republican politicians who are Dominionists -- to name one, James Inhofe.

It's true they don't have much power as Dominionists, in the sense that their crazy beliefs are not mainstream and not accepted. But it's hard to deny that they have an outsized influence on policy -- and the current all-out war against women's rights is just one example.

The majority of lower level Bush appointees (who are still hanging around in the professional GOP) were, if memory serves, from the southern christian universities.

119 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:15:59pm

re: #112 Charles

By the way, if I disagree with Brayton on anything, it's that Dominionists are a "tiny fringe with little power." The fact is that there are quite a few highly placed Republican politicians who are Dominionists -- to name one, James Inhofe.

It's true they don't have much power as Dominionists, in the sense that their crazy beliefs are not mainstream and not accepted. But it's hard to deny that they have an outsized influence on policy -- and the current all-out war against women's rights is just one example.

that's all it takes bro...like hedging a bet in Vegas, over time you will win out....these pukes do not need to be overt about it

120 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:16:22pm

re: #97 albusteve

never sailed in deep water?...if not, do it before you die, and thank me later

Did some test dives in a nuclear submarine...Not as fun as you would think

121 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:17:10pm

re: #114 Aceofwhat?

No, i run to Columbus (OH) each week. Also, my grandfather passed away a few weeks ago; i haven't had the time or desire to be on the internetz much recently.

Sorry about your Grandfather. Glad to see you back.

122 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:17:16pm

re: #112 Charles

re: #116 Talking Point Detective

I hate it when that happens.

123 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:17:25pm

re: #21 prononymous

I feel the same way as the OP. IMO, radical Islam is the worst religious threat we face today. Not to diminish the social conservative threat.

But the right wing reaction to all Islam is just lunacy. Islam spans a rich constellation of cultures with an interesting history and good food. We can fight radical Islam without alienating the good people from these wonderful cultures.

what do you mean "we"? Radical Islam isn't taking away my rights in Orgeon, that's so-con Christians.

124 ThomasLite  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:17:43pm

re: #106 Aceofwhat?

he'll downding it tomorrow, no worries...

gee. thanks. where did that come from? I don't see why some people seem to actually try to NOT try to actually give me a fighting chance here :S
and yet you WONDER why I'm hesitant to post at times?

re: #99 sattv4u2

(((and btw ,,, shhh,,, you're "explanation" is horse hockey pucks,,, you were downdinging in real time on the current subject matter to posters that were still active in the discussion,, but nice try))

Johnny ,,, do we have any parting gifts for this player!?!?!

I was reading up through that thread. as you might notice there are, of now, 375 posts. I do not have the godlike power to read hundreds of posts in a matter of minutes. aside from that I was defending a more general practice on my part, not limited to that thread, but often also encompassing threads several days old. excuse me for actually finding the debate here interesting :S

re: #113 Decatur Deb

A couple people, like SFZ, are very conscientious about reading all the way through a thread as they catch up. It looks like an invasion of army ants, if you watch in Masterspy.

are you saying that's actually an exception?

@everyone
so, next time I'm interested in a subject, I should just read the latest 50 or so posts and start firing of replies without reading the entire conversation first? sort of sounds like a recipe to just get violently smashed just like today, again :S

125 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:18:12pm

re: #112 Charles

By the way, if I disagree with Brayton on anything, it's that Dominionists are a "tiny fringe with little power." The fact is that there are quite a few highly placed Republican politicians who are Dominionists -- to name one, James Inhofe.

It's true they don't have much power as Dominionists, in the sense that their crazy beliefs are not mainstream and not accepted. But it's hard to deny that they have an outsized influence on policy -- and the current all-out war against women's rights is just one example.


There's dominionists, and then there's more mainstream so-cons, between them, they have a great deal of power

126 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:18:36pm

re: #112 Charles

By the way, if I disagree with Brayton on anything, it's that Dominionists are a "tiny fringe with little power." The fact is that there are quite a few highly placed Republican politicians who are Dominionists -- to name one, James Inhofe.

This comment on Brayton's original post (emphasis mine) sums it up well:

"reactionary Islam...is the single most dangerous and malevolent ideology on the planet today."

Yet it is also among the least influential ideologies in American politics, no matter how much the wingnuts insist that "Iraq Hussein Osama" supports the Islamist agenda. Meanwhile, while radical Christianity is certainly a far less malevolent ideology and much less dangerous on the world scene, it has a far greater impact in American politics. That's why we complain about Christianity so much, conservatives. Do you hear anyone complain about the Marquis de Sade's influence on today's youth?

127 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:19:02pm

re: #116 Talking Point Detective

Actually, I'd say that American Christian fundies do have a lot of power, and do represent a very significant threat.

Meh. Take it from a Christian. They're losing a demographic battle. The long run favors the tolerant.

128 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:19:43pm

re: #117 Decatur Deb

If he's talking about Christian Reconstructionists, they are a fragment of a fragment--and it's best to keep them that way.

But their influence is disproportionate to their numbers.

129 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:20:33pm

re: #120 HoosierHoops

Did some test dives in a nuclear submarine...Not as fun as you would think

Hoops....sail sometime, in stiff downwind air, off shore....with 1000ft of freezing black death under you, surface all crazy and spray everywhere, bright blue sky and total calm above you, sails humming and the boat flexing from the stress....it is a hell of a buzz

130 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:20:44pm

re: #124 ThomasLite

Yes, it looks like an exception. The topics of our threads shift so rapidly that we often have difficulty honoring the "100 posts on-topic" convention. Jumping in at the end is common, and a source of great strife and hilarity.

131 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:20:46pm

re: #124 ThomasLite


just stick to a thread where you're aware of the spread of what's being discussed, as someone who has been posting online since I was a kid in the late 1980's, from the BBS, Compuserve and GEnie days, sometimes, it just ain't worth jumping into a 500 comment thing where shit's flying

132 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:20:49pm

The law is the law is the law, and Sharia law ought not, and we need not fear that it ever might, intrude on the proper domain of civil law.

OK, that's this man's view. Now, for another view, we have Theodore Dalrymple.

Source article, highly recommended.

...[snip, we come into the article mid-stream] Juliet’s plea to her mother to abrogate an unwanted marriage to Paris, arranged and forced on her by her father, Capulet—would so uncannily capture the predicament of some of my Muslim patients in Britain more than a third of a century after my visit to Afghanistan, and four centuries after they were written:

Is there no pity sitting in the clouds
That sees into the bottom of my grief?
O sweet my mother, cast me not away!
Delay this marriage for a month, a week,
Or if you do not, make the bridal bed
In that dim monument where Tybalt lies.

How often have I been consulted by young Muslim women patients, driven to despair by enforced marriages to close relatives (usually first cousins) back “home” in India and Pakistan, who have made such an unavailing appeal to their mothers, followed by an attempt at suicide!

Capulet’s attitude to his refractory daughter is precisely that of my Muslim patients’ fathers:

Look to’t, think on’t, I do not use to jest.
Thursday is near, lay hand on heart, advise:
And you be mine, I’ll give you to my friend;
And you be not, hang, beg, starve, die in the streets,
For by my soul, I’ll ne’er acknowledge thee,
Nor what is mine shall ever do thee good.

In fact the situation of Muslim girls in my city is even worse than Juliet’s. Every Muslim girl in my city has heard of the killing of such as she back in Pakistan, on refusal to marry her first cousin, betrothed to her by her father, all unknown to her, in the earliest years of her childhood. The girl is killed because she has impugned family honor by breaking her father’s word, and any halfhearted official inquiry into the death by the Pakistani authorities is easily and cheaply bought off. And even if she is not killed, she is expelled from the household—O sweet my mother, cast me not away!—and regarded by her “community” as virtually a prostitute, fair game for any man who wants her.

This pattern of betrothal causes suffering as intense as any I know of. It has terrible consequences. One father prevented his daughter, highly intelligent and ambitious to be a journalist, from attending school, precisely to ensure her lack of Westernization and economic independence. He then took her, aged 16, to Pakistan for the traditional forced marriage (silence, or a lack of open objection, amounts to consent in these circumstances, according to Islamic law) to a first cousin whom she disliked from the first and who forced his attentions on her. Granted a visa to come to Britain, as if the marriage were a bona fide one—the British authorities having turned a cowardly blind eye to the real nature of such marriages in order to avoid the charge of racial discrimination—he was violent toward her.

Emphasis mine. The point is, it is not in fact true that aspects of Sharia law never, or effectively never, penetrate into the real-world workings of western courts.

Bold-facing mine.

133 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:20:55pm

re: #110 ThomasLite

I have two ways of doing things - others vary.
Either - i will ding a thread i missed (on the salient points) - rarely downward.

Or - I will drop a comment onto the end of it.

However - if a question was raised over my conduct during a thread and that thread is now dead - it is only polite to acknowledge such in a live thread and link to the dead thread.

HOWEVER - you take a lot less flak for dinging threads if you are a regular contributor. Then people know you may have an opinion but are too pressed for time to express it or have missed the boat on a thread but still wanna give props.

134 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:21:01pm

re: #124 ThomasLite

gee. thanks. where did that come from? I don't see why some people seem to actually try to NOT try to actually give me a fighting chance here :S
and yet you WONDER why I'm hesitant to post at times?

was a joke. sometimes i'm funny, sometimes i'm not. roll with it, girlfriend.

135 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:21:17pm

re: #124 ThomasLite

[snip]

so, next time I'm interested in a subject, I should just read the latest 50 or so posts and start firing of replies without reading the entire conversation first? sort of sounds like a recipe to just get violently smashed just like today, again :S

Oh stop with the martyr routine. Violently implies contact, no one touched you. Mr. Hyperbole.

136 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:21:30pm

re: #127 Aceofwhat?

Meh. Take it from a Christian. They're losing a demographic battle. The long run favors the tolerant.

I hope you're right - but I'm not sure that's the evidence I've seen based on what's been happening in recent years.

I wonder what the polls show over the last 10 years or so on numbers who believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old, for example.

137 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:22:29pm

re: #131 WindUpBird

just stick to a thread where you're aware of the spread of what's being discussed, as someone who has been posting online since I was a kid in the late 1980's, from the BBS, Compuserve and GEnie days, sometimes, it just ain't worth jumping into a 500 comment thing where shit's flying

or jump in late and discuss knee-high socks. i found that to be an enjoyable tactic, myself. =p

138 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:22:57pm

re: #136 Talking Point Detective

I hope you're right - but I'm not sure that's the evidence I've seen based on what's been happening in recent years.

I wonder what the polls show over the last 10 years or so on numbers who believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old, for example.

you go to church much?

139 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:23:45pm

re: #137 Aceofwhat?

or jump in late and discuss knee-high socks. i found that to be an enjoyable tactic, myself. =p

heeheehee ^_^

It can offer a break :D I just passed by the actual Sock Dreams store today, it's a little house in the Sellwood distrct of portland, I would have stopped but I was too buy buying artisan gin *_*

140 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:24:02pm

re: #128 Talking Point Detective

But their influence is disproportionate to their numbers.

I'm trying to read him with a very tight definition of the Reconstructionists. They are asort of subset of Dominionists, and pretty freaky even in that world. Personally, I'm convinced that any religion or ideology, given the power, will eventually mount an auto-da-fe. I know my teachers at the seminary would have.

We need a good taxonomy of the RW religious groups.

141 Surabaya Stew  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:24:15pm

re: #113 Decatur Deb

A couple people, like SFZ, are very conscientious about reading all the way through a thread as they catch up. It looks like an invasion of army ants, if you watch in Masterspy.

Frankly, that's half of the fun of LGF!

142 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:24:17pm

re: #138 Aceofwhat?

you go to church much?

Every day!

143 Linden Arden  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:24:32pm

Is the liberal media reporting this?

CUERO, Texas—Oil-drilling activity in the U.S. has accelerated to a pace not seen in a generation as energy companies, oilfield contractors and landowners rush to exploit newly profitable sources of crude.

The number of rigs aiming for oil in the U.S. is the highest since at least 1987, according to Baker Hughes Inc. The 818 rigs tallied by the oilfield-service company last week are nearly double last year's count and about 10 times the number that were drilling for oil in the late 1990s.

Wall Street Journal

144 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:27:09pm

re: #139 WindUpBird

heeheehee ^_^

It can offer a break :D I just passed by the actual Sock Dreams store today, it's a little house in the Sellwood distrct of portland, I would have stopped but I was too buy buying artisan gin *_*

You know, for someone who likes gin as much as i do (as in, guess what i'm drinking right this second...), i am chagrined to have not yet tasted Artisan...what would you compare it to?

145 ThomasLite  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:28:00pm

re: #131 WindUpBird

just stick to a thread where you're aware of the spread of what's being discussed, as someone who has been posting online since I was a kid in the late 1980's, from the BBS, Compuserve and GEnie days, sometimes, it just ain't worth jumping into a 500 comment thing where shit's flying

yeah. had little choice though, seeing I was being accused of being a stalker and what not. still, you have a point.

re: #133 wozzablog

I have two ways of doing things - others vary.
Either - i will ding a thread i missed (on the salient points) - rarely downward.

Or - I will drop a comment onto the end of it.

However - if a question was raised over my conduct during a thread and that thread is now dead - it is only polite to acknowledge such in a live thread and link to the dead thread.

HOWEVER - you take a lot less flak for dinging threads if you are a regular contributor. Then people know you may have an opinion but are too pressed for time to express it or have missed the boat on a thread but still wanna give props.

okay, sorry! if I had known that, I would have dropped it in a live thread with a link in a dead one. I honestly did not know (thought doing so would have been impolite, even!)

re: #134 Aceofwhat?

was a joke. sometimes i'm funny, sometimes i'm not. roll with it, girlfriend.

in that case, sorry. I was being a bit defensive. my bad!

re: #135 Walter L. Newton

Oh stop with the martyr routine. Violently implies contact, no one touched you. Mr. Hyperbole.

not being a martyr, it just seems that I do A, I get attacked for doing A, I do ¬A, I get attacked for doing ¬A. some consistency would be nice ;)

anyway, good night everyone (or good morning, or whatever) - I'm off.

146 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:28:01pm

re: #138 Aceofwhat?

you go to church much?

Well, I'm jewish.

Is there a point there? Are you saying that since Bush decided to specifically focus on getting votes from the religious right, the power of fundies hasn't grown? Are you saying that there wasn't a clear change in orientation of the evangelical movement to begin becoming more political?

Because if you'd like to debate the truth of those trends, I'm game.

147 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:28:03pm

re: #70 albusteve

I'm half attempted to say screw those lunatics, but they are our people, Americans...we need to get them back to safety regardless

The Navy is in a position to prevent their capture. It can, perhaps, attempt a rescue. If I were in the boat, I'd rather take my chances in a rescue attempt than hope that I'd be ransomed so that more pirates could get better weapons with which to capture more victims and hold them, too, for ransom. And kill them, in case it weren't coughed up.

If rescue were impossible, I'd rather they just sink the boat and kill me and the pirates, than let them make shore with a trophy.

Not one penny for tribute. We already had this argument, and the upshot is written into the Marine Corps anthem.

148 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:28:47pm

re: #144 Aceofwhat?

You know, for someone who likes gin as much as i do (as in, guess what i'm drinking right this second...), i am chagrined to have not yet tasted Artisan...what would you compare it to?

Fruitier notes, smokier, more sorta small batch, more flavorful, this is what I get: [Link: www.rogue.com...]

I use Bombay for G&Ts, this is more of a sipping thing :D

149 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:28:59pm

re: #143 Linden Arden

Is the liberal media reporting this?

Wall Street Journal

And on that topic:

The 2010 Deepwater Horizon oil spill "devastated" life on and near the seafloor, a marine scientist has said.

Studies using a submersible found a layer, as much as 10cm thick in places, of dead animals and oil...knocking these animals out of the food chain will, in time, affect species relevant to fisheries...

"I didn't see a living (sea cucumber) around on any of the wellhead dives. They're typically everywhere, and we saw none."

Organisms on the seafloor stimulate the activity of micro-organisms and oxygenate the sediments, two tasks at the bottom of the aquatic food chain that will inevitably have longer-term effects on species nearer the surface - including the ones we eat.

Yay.

150 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:29:01pm

re: #142 WindUpBird

Every day!


[Video]

nicely done!

(and bangs on men are overrated...but musicians are allowed to make some bad decisions)

151 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:30:29pm

re: #143 Linden Arden

Is the liberal media reporting this?

Wall Street Journal

Our school was on the fringe of the very first oil fields in NW Pennsylvania. We were surrounded by very old 'abandoned' family-owned wells that would be put back into service when oil prices hit very high levels. Some produced as little as 2-3 barrels a day, some were driven by Ford Model T wrecks on blocks.

152 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:30:49pm

re: #145 ThomasLite

re: #133 wozzablog

okay, sorry! if I had known that, I would have dropped it in a live thread with a link in a dead one. I honestly did not know (thought doing so would have been impolite, even!)

It's just simpler and saves time and aggravation.

We all learn these lessons through bitter experience - and saying "sorry" gets you a long way here. I like it.

153 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:31:46pm

re: #150 Aceofwhat?

nicely done!

(and bangs on men are overrated...but musicians are allowed to make some bad decisions)

haha well, 22 year old album, what can ya do, it's in the late 80's, oh the hair!

154 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:31:48pm

re: #132 lostlakehiker

The law is the law is the law, and Sharia law ought not, and we need not fear that it ever might, intrude on the proper domain of civil law.

OK, that's this man's view. Now, for another view, we have Theodore Dalrymple.

Source article, highly recommended.

Emphasis mine. The point is, it is not in fact true that aspects of Sharia law never, or effectively never, penetrate into the real-world workings of western courts.

Bold-facing mine.

I do not think that Ed Brayton's argument is that it does not.

But here’s the thing. None of what I said above logically leads one to conclude either that all Muslims believe in such barbarism or that America is on the verge — or even, in our wildest dystopic imaginations, could be on the verge — of being taken over by Muslim radicals who will impose Sharia law on us. Nor does it logically flow from anything I’ve said above that Muslims in this country are suddenly no longer covered by either statutory or constitutional protections of their equal rights.

What we're discussing here is the extent to which the law can protect people from family pressure, criminal threats from family, or old-country customs. Assess that high or low, I have to agree with Brayton that the fantasy that Sharia will be 'imposed' upon Western countries is absolutely ridiculous.

Girls from Chinese or Indian families who are not Muslims face similar problems, and problems they are, and to be taken very seriously.

155 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:31:56pm

re: #143 Linden Arden

Is the liberal media reporting this?

Wall Street Journal

duh, the ME is exploding... you do want food delivered to your local stores, don't you?

156 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:32:05pm

Off topic, but anymore news out of Libya? I was in class until a few minutes ago.

157 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:32:05pm

re: #146 Talking Point Detective

Well, I'm jewish.

Is there a point there? Are you saying that since Bush decided to specifically focus on getting votes from the religious right, the power of fundies hasn't grown? Are you saying that there wasn't a clear change in orientation of the evangelical movement to begin becoming more political?

Because if you'd like to debate the truth of those trends, I'm game.

no. just saying that i go to church a lot. and while data isn't the plural of anecdote, regular observations only make me more confident that my generation (X) is, on balance, far less Dominionist than our predecessors.

158 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:32:22pm

re: #148 WindUpBird

Fruitier notes, smokier, more sorta small batch, more flavorful, this is what I get: [Link: www.rogue.com...]

I use Bombay for G&Ts, this is more of a sipping thing :D

My g&t's are doubles of gordons gin, lashings of ice, tonic and a slice of good lemon.

159 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:32:30pm

re: #151 Decatur Deb

Our school was on the fringe of the very first oil fields in NW Pennsylvania. We were surrounded by very old 'abandoned' family-owned wells that would be put back into service when oil prices hit very high levels. Some produced as little as 2-3 barrels a day, some were driven by Ford Model T wrecks on blocks.

occasionally the Clash would show up and play a few songs in front of one

160 Linden Arden  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:32:47pm

re: #149 publicityStunted

You are right on.

Every wingnut Con I hear lie about "We can't drill here!" is followed by a rational explanation from EPA/Minerals.

161 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:33:05pm

re: #140 Decatur Deb

I'm trying to read him with a very tight definition of the Reconstructionists. They are asort of subset of Dominionists, and pretty freaky even in that world. Personally, I'm convinced that any religion or ideology, given the power, will eventually mount an auto-da-fe. I know my teachers at the seminary would have.

We need a good taxonomy of the RW religious groups.

Ok, you seem to know about the specifics, and my knowledge of that very specific group is certainly limited - but this bit from Wiki is consistent with my general impression:

Although relatively insignificant in terms of the number of self-described adherents, Christian Reconstructionism has played a role in promoting the trend toward explicitly Christian politics in the larger U.S. Christian Right.[10] This is the wider trend to which some critics refer, generally, as Dominionism. They also allegedly have influence disproportionate to their numbers among the advocates of the growth of the Christian homeschooling and other Christian education movements that seek independence from the direct oversight or support of the civil government. Because their numbers are so small compared to their influence, they are sometimes accused of being secretive and conspiratorial

162 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:34:44pm

re: #159 WindUpBird

occasionally the Clash would show up and play a few songs in front of one

Not in those days. We'd have been happy with Paul Anka.

163 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:35:51pm

Off topic again, but Canterbury, NZ was heavily damaged my another earthquake. The Spire of ChristChurch Cathedral has collapsed may have collapsed.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

164 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:36:12pm

re: #157 Aceofwhat?

no. just saying that i go to church a lot. and while data isn't the plural of anecdote, regular observations only make me more confident that my generation (X) is, on balance, far less Dominionist than our predecessors.

Then maybe you can help me to put that together with the larger trend towards conservative, politically active Christians seeking to gain influence over civil society.

165 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:37:24pm

re: #161 Talking Point Detective

Ok, you seem to know about the specifics, and my knowledge of that very specific group is certainly limited - but this bit from Wiki is consistent with my general impression:

Yeah--you can see how the purest, most radical, ideologues pull the larger group along. That's how the fairly few monks of the Middle Ages had far more sympathizers than imitators.

166 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:40:33pm

re: #148 WindUpBird

Fruitier notes, smokier, more sorta small batch, more flavorful, this is what I get: [Link: www.rogue.com...]

I use Bombay for G&Ts, this is more of a sipping thing :D

I couldn't agree more...i'm having Bombay and tonic right now, and good gin is meant to be enjoyed cold and up, not diluted or mixed.

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:40:43pm

re: #164 Talking Point Detective

Then maybe you can help me to put that together with the larger trend towards conservative, politically active Christians seeking to gain influence over civil society.

Think of it this way--on the one hand, you have mainstream Christians who go to church, aren't insane, believe in science, and vote Democrat or Republican depending on their personal background and beliefs, as opposed to the extremely hard-core socon highly politically active minority--and then, somewhere in between, members of the first group who can be convinced that the second is improving America. The numbers favor the first group. The funding, and highly focused political agenda, favors the second.

168 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:41:19pm

re: #143 Linden Arden

re: #149 publicityStunted

And on a somewhat related topic, my governor, who received some $875,000 in campaign contributions from gas companies, has taken the steps below in the only state that doesn't charge gas companies an excise tax (even though the state is deeply in debt).

In one of the first promised reversals of former Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell's Marcellus Shale policy, the Corbett administration has rescinded a policy in effect for the past four months that effectively put a moratorium on new leasing for natural gas drilling in state forests.

Read more: Corbett lifts ban on Marcellus Shale drilling in state forests | Pittsburgh Business Times

169 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:42:45pm

re: #164 Talking Point Detective

Then maybe you can help me to put that together with the larger trend towards conservative, politically active Christians seeking to gain influence over civil society.

sure. it's not a larger trend.

anything else i can help with;)

170 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:43:56pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

Think of it this way--on the one hand, you have mainstream Christians who go to church, aren't insane, believe in science, and vote Democrat or Republican depending on their personal background and beliefs, as opposed to the extremely hard-core socon highly politically active minority--and then, somewhere in between, members of the first group who can be convinced that the second is improving America. The numbers favor the first group. The funding, and highly focused political agenda, favors the second.

I think the first group, even if unaware of demographics, senses that this is no longer the white Christian nation they imagined they grew up in decades ago. Hence the over the top backlash we've seen over everything from immigration to mosques to a president whose father and name aren't Christian or white.

171 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:44:06pm

re: #169 Aceofwhat?

sure. it's not a larger trend.

anything else i can help with;)

lol

This reminds me of the recent Geico commercial.

172 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:44:25pm

re: #168 Talking Point Detective

re: #149 publicityStunted

And on a somewhat related topic, my governor, who received some $875,000 in campaign contributions from gas companies, has taken the steps below in the only state that doesn't charge gas companies an excise tax (even though the state is deeply in debt).

Woo! Flammable tap water for everyone! 9_9

173 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:44:26pm

re: #169 Aceofwhat?

sure. it's not a larger trend.

anything else i can help with;)


Yes!

174 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:45:06pm

Has anyone else played the Bulletstorm demo? I think I may be in love...

176 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:45:38pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

Think of it this way--on the one hand, you have mainstream Christians who go to church, aren't insane, believe in science, and vote Democrat or Republican depending on their personal background and beliefs, as opposed to the extremely hard-core socon highly politically active minority--and then, somewhere in between, members of the first group who can be convinced that the second is improving America. The numbers favor the first group. The funding, and highly focused political agenda, favors the second.

Fair enough - except that these candidates are getting so far out there, and openly so, that it's getting a bit hard to believe that there is the ideological differences between the mainstream and the extremists that you're speaking to. Mind you, I'm not saying in any way that Christian beliefs are by definition extremist - but there are a lot of Republicans these days who are putting their religious extremism front and center. I live in the state of Santorum. Yeah, he lost, but it seems to me that since his lost the Republican Party has on the whole moved even further to appealing to religious extremism as a political strategy. I don't think they would have had the success they've had if there wasn't an increasing trend towards religious extremism. The 24/7 of Fox News and rightwing talk radio has an affect on people.

177 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:46:19pm

re: #171 Fozzie Bear

lol

This reminds me of the recent Geico commercial.

[Video]

nice. good to see you-

178 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:46:50pm

re: #170 palomino

I think the first group, even if unaware of demographics, senses that this is no longer the white Christian nation they imagined they grew up in decades ago. Hence the over the top backlash we've seen over everything from immigration to mosques to a president whose father and name aren't Christian or white.

Dunno--there's an awful lot of liberal Christians out there who are actively cheering on the new world.

179 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:46:54pm

re: #177 Aceofwhat?

nice. good to see you-

You too dude. I hope life finds you well.

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:47:54pm

re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist

Dunno--there's an awful lot of liberal Christians out there who are actively cheering on the new world.

And a lot of people who just 'feel' that people like them are better for America, without having any notable religious beliefs.

181 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:48:03pm

Nilsson covers Randy Newman.....Sail Away

land lubbers

182 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:48:03pm

re: #176 Talking Point Detective

Fair enough - except that these candidates are getting so far out there, and openly so, that it's getting a bit hard to believe that there is the ideological differences between the mainstream and the extremists that you're speaking to. Mind you, I'm not saying in any way that Christian beliefs are by definition extremist - but there are a lot of Republicans these days who are putting their religious extremism front and center. I live in the state of Santorum. Yeah, he lost, but it seems to me that since his lost the Republican Party has on the whole moved even further to appealing to religious extremism as a political strategy. I don't think they would have had the success they've had if there wasn't an increasing trend towards religious extremism. The 24/7 of Fox News and rightwing talk radio has an affect on people.

What's going on in American Christianity is the decline of traditional Protestantism and Catholicism, and the rise of more explicitly conservative sects, such as evangelicals and Mormons.

183 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:48:58pm

re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist

Dunno--there's an awful lot of liberal Christians out there who are actively cheering on the new world.

Yeah, but for whatever reason, they get totally drowned out by right wing evangelicals.

184 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:49:15pm

re: #174 JasonA

Has anyone else played the Bulletstorm demo? I think I may be in love...

made time for a little Dead Space 2 today...but that's just biding time until Dragon Age 2 comes out.

185 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:49:28pm

re: #169 Aceofwhat?

sure. it's not a larger trend.

anything else i can help with;)

It's not a larger trend of conservative, politically active Christians seeking to gain influence over civil society?

Really?

We're talking about the U.S., right?

186 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:49:38pm

I just found this on Wikipedia on Libya Protests:

Italy sends reconnaissance vessels: The Italian defence minister confirmed the dispatch of at least one Italian electronic warfare and recon naval vessel near Libyan territorial waters. It is believed that some special forces may be aboard the ship, although their purpose is as yet unknown.

Italy has a plan to deal with this? I wouldn't have expected Italy to be the country to do something.

187 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:50:25pm

re: #186 ProLifeLiberal

I just found this on Wikipedia on Libya Protests:

Italy has a plan to deal with this? I wouldn't have expected Italy to be the country to do something.

They are geographically very close.

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:50:55pm

re: #183 palomino

Yeah, but for whatever reason, they get totally drowned out by right wing evangelicals.

Law-abiding Muslims get drowned out by the suicide-bombing radicals. The more noise you make, and the more you insist that YOU represent your group, the more attention you draw.

People like Jim Wallis do their best, but it's an uphill row to hoe.

189 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:51:28pm

re: #176 Talking Point Detective

Fair enough - except that these candidates are getting so far out there, and openly so, that it's getting a bit hard to believe that there is the ideological differences between the mainstream and the extremists that you're speaking to. Mind you, I'm not saying in any way that Christian beliefs are by definition extremist - but there are a lot of Republicans these days who are putting their religious extremism front and center. I live in the state of Santorum. Yeah, he lost, but it seems to me that since his lost the Republican Party has on the whole moved even further to appealing to religious extremism as a political strategy. I don't think they would have had the success they've had if there wasn't an increasing trend towards religious extremism. The 24/7 of Fox News and rightwing talk radio has an affect on people.

If you look, the ideological differences among the RW religious are distinct, complex, and sometimes very bitter. I watched Dominionism a while back, during the time following the Lakeland Revival Summer. The pathway was very confused, and littered with good folk damning each other to Hell. While this strain can be traced all the way back to Calvin and earlier, most of the American action actually stems from a few leaders in the 1950s.

190 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:51:37pm

re: #172 publicityStunted

Woo! Flammable tap water for everyone! 9_9

Actually, I left out the most important part:

When it went into effect in October, the policy required any operators who wanted to drill on public land to get an assessment of environmental impacts from the Department of Conservation and National Resources before applying for a permit with the Department of Environmental Protection.

This is unreal. They can drill in state parks without even having to do an environmental impact statement. PA has had, a lot of beautiful state parks.

191 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:52:33pm

re: #185 Talking Point Detective

It's not a larger trend of conservative, politically active Christians seeking to gain influence over civil society?

Really?

We're talking about the U.S., right?

i'd ask you for the data to back it up, except that i'm fairly confident that no such thing exists. i know that you feel that there is a larger trend...but your feelings, like my anecdotes, are not the foundation of data.

192 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:52:37pm

re: #186 ProLifeLiberal

I just found this on Wikipedia on Libya Protests:

Italy has a plan to deal with this? I wouldn't have expected Italy to be the country to do something.

Libya was an Italian colony until 1951. They probably have connections, and feel some responsibility toward the country.

193 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:53:12pm

re: #186 ProLifeLiberal

re: #187 wrenchwench

They are geographically very close.

Italy has a long history with Libya

wars ,, treaties ,, commerce

194 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:53:29pm

re: #186 ProLifeLiberal

I just found this on Wikipedia on Libya Protests:

Italy has a plan to deal with this? I wouldn't have expected Italy to be the country to do something.

They have the most to lose--a small boat can make it across the Med to Sicily and Calabria

195 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:53:32pm

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

gmta

197 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:53:45pm

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

Italy just didn't strike me as the nation to step forward and take action. Honestly, they were the last country I would think of to do something.

198 joe90  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:54:52pm

Off topic but another major quake in Christchurch NZ. Reports of multiple fatalities.Spoken to my family in the city and so far so good.

[Link: www.stuff.co.nz...]

199 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:54:58pm

re: #191 Aceofwhat?

i'd ask you for the data to back it up, except that i'm fairly confident that no such thing exists. i know that you feel that there is a larger trend...but your feelings, like my anecdotes, are not the foundation of data.

What? You don't think that conservative, politically active Christians are attempting to legislate positions based on their faith?

200 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:55:46pm

re: #197 ProLifeLiberal

Italy just didn't strike me as the nation to step forward and take action. Honestly, they were the last country I would think of to do something.

Wag the Dog maneuver by Silvio Berlusconi.

/

201 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:56:15pm

re: #198 joe90

Off topic but another major quake in Christchurch NZ. Reports of multiple fatalities.Spoken to my family in the city and so far so good.

[Link: www.stuff.co.nz...]

All my best to everyone.

202 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:56:55pm

re: #188 SanFranciscoZionist

Law-abiding Muslims get drowned out by the suicide-bombing radicals. The more noise you make, and the more you insist that YOU represent your group, the more attention you draw.

People like Jim Wallis do their best, but it's an uphill row to hoe.

There's an important lesson there for America, I think.

203 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:57:23pm

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

Libya was an Italian colony until 1951. They probably have connections, and feel some responsibility toward the country.

Yep. Just as immigration policy in France is different for, say, Algerians (as opposed to Rwandans, Kenyans, etc.). Relationships with ex-colonies are...complicated.

(Reminds me of how much i chuckle when the US gets the 'imperialist' accusation...)

204 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:57:25pm

An Australian band I had the pleasure of doing some tour photography for has a big new hit for the best reason. The drummers (Jason Pinfold) mother contracted breast cancer. He flew home, and she sent him back out after a visit insisting he keep playing and touring. She is a huge rock fan. "Make me proud out there" she said. The front man Toby wrote Brightest Star an inspirational love song from a son to a mother. By sheer luck I know these guys and I'd like to help spread the message. Proceeds from this song available on tunes go to March For The Cure.
These guys come from the heart always. Please enjoy the photography, the youtube link. Then, if you can, go to Itunes and buy the song. You'll be glad you did. A survivor's anthem.

205 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:57:38pm

re: #198 joe90

Damage looks worst than last year's quake. Hope the casulties are minimal, and the damage to the historic buildings restored (or if needed, outright rebuilt).

206 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:58:13pm

re: #191 Aceofwhat?

i'd ask you for the data to back it up, except that i'm fairly confident that no such thing exists. i know that you feel that there is a larger trend...but your feelings, like my anecdotes, are not the foundation of data.

This is from 1996:

For example, only 38 percent of the nation's conservative evangelicals say they have read or heard much about the religious right; fewer than half say support it. While 74 percent know enough about Pat Robertson, the founder of the Christian Coalition, one of the most prominent organizations in the movement, to give him a rating, only 18 percent know enough about Ralph Reed, the executive director of the coalition, to rate him.

Do you really think that only 38% of the nation's conservative evangelicals in 2011 have heard about the religious right?

207 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:58:13pm

re: #199 Obdicut

What? You don't think that conservative, politically active Christians are attempting to legislate positions based on their faith?

more than they were earlier in the 1900's? nope.

208 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:58:49pm

re: #203 Aceofwhat?

And France had a relation to the Rwandan Genocide. Which is interesting because they criticize us for Human Rights violations. Hypocrisy much?

209 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:58:52pm

re: #202 Fozzie Bear

There's an important lesson there for America, I think.

We need more radical moderates?

210 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:59:02pm

re: #207 Aceofwhat?

more than they were earlier in the 1900's? nope.

Oh. Um, I didn't realize we were comparing things to the 1900s.

Why are we comparing things to the 1900s?

211 joe90  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:59:09pm

re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist

All my best to everyone.


Thanks mate, appreciated.

212 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:59:42pm

re: #123 WindUpBird

what do you mean "we"? Radical Islam isn't taking away my rights in Orgeon, that's so-con Christians.

They would if they could though. But you are right, the level of threat varies locally. My frame was more global. But I certainly don't want to downplay the threat by social conservatives here, as the OP does.

213 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:00:39pm

re: #120 HoosierHoops

Did some test dives in a nuclear submarine...Not as fun as you would think

Test diving a sub? Not enough money in the world. Sail a schooner or sloop somewhere? I'd go & bust ass for room & board.

214 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:00:47pm

re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist

We need more radical moderates?

The more involved moderates are, the less often the fringes have control, imo. I like the phrase "radical moderates".

215 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:00:49pm

re: #210 Obdicut

Oh. Um, I didn't realize we were comparing things to the 1900s.

Why are we comparing things to the 1900s?

they were only 10 years ago. religious trends are like climate. ten years is an insufficient horizon.

216 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:02:01pm

re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist

We need more radical moderates?

Here's a start... ;)

217 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:03:09pm

re: #215 Aceofwhat?

they were only 10 years ago. religious trends are like climate. ten years is an insufficient horizon.

I'm lost.

A) The 1900s were 100 years ago, not 10.

B) I don't think we're talking about religious trends so much as political trends. And political trends can be very short-spanned. The Tea Party, for example.

There is, right now, in this country, a huge problem with a set of conservative Christians attempting to legislate based on their beliefs, in reference to gay marriage, climate change, abortion, creationism, and a host of other issues.

218 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:04:06pm

re: #215 Aceofwhat?

they were only 10 years ago. religious trends are like climate. ten years is an insufficient horizon.

There is no way your statement bears any truth. The simple ability to reach people and spread what ever message has increased a 100 fold since the early 1900's. With a single purchased email list and an attractive message, I could reach two million people in a manner of seconds.

219 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:04:44pm

re: #215 Aceofwhat?

they were only 10 years ago. religious trends are like climate. ten years is an insufficient horizon.

So the fact that rightwing Christians were close advisors to Bush for 8 years was of no significance?

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:04:53pm

re: #208 ProLifeLiberal

And France had a relation to the Rwandan Genocide. Which is interesting because they criticize us for Human Rights violations. Hypocrisy much?

IOKIYF

(It's OK If You're France).

France has a really interesting political culture, in many ways.

One of Alisa Valdes-Rodriguez's characters describes France as a country that turns out hundreds of thousands in anti-nuclear protests, but keeps one of the world's largest nuclear arsenals--just to be on the safe side.

Since she's talking about her French mother, it's more of a personal observation, but it does say something about the country. A first-class national mind, in F. Scott Fitzgerald's definition.

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:05:16pm

re: #211 joe90

Thanks mate, appreciated.

I'm from earthquake country myself.

222 joe90  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:07:29pm

re: #205 ProLifeLiberal

Damage looks worst than last year's quake. Hope the casulties are minimal, and the damage to the historic buildings restored (or if needed, outright rebuilt).

Way worse than last Septembers big one which struck in the weekend early hours when everybody was in bed and miraculously no lives were lost.
This time it struck at lunch time when the city was packed and even relatively modern buildings have collapsed with the landmark Christchurch Cathedral severely damaged.
Horrible.

223 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:07:34pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

Bad thing about quakes is that they cannot be predicted with any accuracy. Hurricanes can be seen well in advance, and even Volcanic Eruptions and Tornadoes can be predicted to a point. But Earthquakes? Hit without warning and stop with minutes. Mother Nature's Hit-and-Run.

224 Gus  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:09:01pm

Just had me a microwaved rib sandwich. Burp.

It's all Michelle's fault.

No wait. I also had one yesterday.

225 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:09:20pm

re: #222 joe90

Way worse than last Septembers big one which struck in the weekend early hours when everybody was in bed and miraculously no lives were lost.
This time it struck at lunch time when the city was packed and even relatively modern buildings have collapsed with the landmark Christchurch Cathedral severely damaged.
Horrible.

It's a beautiful city. Have other parts of NZ been seriously affected?

226 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:09:23pm

re: #217 Obdicut

A) The 1900s were 100 years ago, not 10

1999 was in the "1900's"

just sayin!

227 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:11:16pm

re: #224 Gus 802

Just had me a microwaved rib sandwich. Burp.

It's all Michelle's fault.

No wait. I also had one yesterday.

you can't blame that on on her... if she was involved she would have eaten yours.

228 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:11:36pm

re: #226 sattv4u2

A) The 1900s were 100 years ago, not 10

1999 was in the "1900's"

just sayin!

the decade, not century, was 100+ years ago...is this really that complex?

229 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:11:53pm

re: #215 Aceofwhat?

By the way, a lot of climate stuff operates on a scale smaller than ten years. Like El Nino/La Nina, which has five year periods.

230 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:12:13pm

re: #228 palomino

the decade, not century, was 100+ years ago...is this really that complex?

I n that ACE stated he was talking about 10 years ago, I guess it was

for you!

231 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:12:15pm

re: #217 Obdicut

I'm lost.

A) The 1900s were 100 years ago, not 10.

B) I don't think we're talking about religious trends so much as political trends. And political trends can be very short-spanned. The Tea Party, for example.

There is, right now, in this country, a huge problem with a set of conservative Christians attempting to legislate based on their beliefs, in reference to gay marriage, climate change, abortion, creationism, and a host of other issues.

how long ago was 1999?

232 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:12:39pm

re: #228 palomino

re: #231 Aceofwhat?

how long ago was 1999?

see!?!?!

233 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:12:58pm

re: #231 Aceofwhat?

how long ago was 1999?

23.9 Trillion dollars ago...

234 joe90  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:13:01pm

re: #225 Talking Point Detective

It's a beautiful city. Have other parts of NZ been seriously affected?

Felt from one end of the South Island to the other with damage reported in a 10-15+KM radius.

235 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:13:05pm

oops, didn't see 226. sorry.

236 Gus  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:13:17pm

re: #227 brookly red

you can't blame that on on her... if she was involved she would have eaten yours.

True. Plus, I never eat any fruit and barely touch vegetables. D'oh! OK, maybe a few bananas and avocado here and there. Typically, I buy fruits and vegies so I can let them rot in the frig.

237 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:13:36pm

re: #235 Aceofwhat?

oops, didn't see 226. sorry.

n/p

238 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:14:15pm

re: #229 Obdicut

By the way, a lot of climate stuff operates on a scale smaller than ten years. Like El Nino/La Nina, which has five year periods.

so, for the record, you're comfortable making climate change assertions based on a time window of one decade?

239 justaminute  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:14:58pm

Charles,

Thanks for the article and the link. His words express exactly what my husband and I feel, as well as our friends. We are a group of five couples, all friends for the past 30 years. All couples compose of an American wife married to an Iranian-American husband. We have all been married to our spouses for at least 29 years. We are not unique, there are alot more of us out there. We are also not subservient wives either. Ha Ha, to bad you can't ask our husbands.

Sharia, really, one of my friends thought it was an old American song. Americans are really blowing this out of proportion. It makes for good jokes though. Thanks again.

240 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:15:03pm

re: #231 Aceofwhat?

Again, since I don't think we're really talking about a religious trend-- nor do I agree that either religious, political, or climactic trends necessarily need a longer period than ten years, that's kinda moot.

But even if we just take 1999: Since 1999, we have seen an increase in the push for creationism in the classroom, anti-abortion laws, anti-AGW attitudes, et al., all from conservative Christians.

241 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:15:17pm

re: #236 Gus 802

True. Plus, I never eat any fruit and barely touch vegetables. D'oh! OK, maybe a few bananas and avocado here and there. Typically, I buy fruits and vegies so I can let them rot in the frig.

small time... when I buy fruits & veggies I need to go through a lobbyist.

242 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:15:39pm

re: #232 sattv4u2

re: #231 Aceofwhat?

see!?!?!

wow, you got me, genius////

243 Gus  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:16:31pm

re: #241 brookly red

small time... when I buy fruits & veggies I need to go through a lobbyist.

No wait! Hang on. I'm about to have some fruit.

It's a Little Debbie lemon pie.

244 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:16:40pm

re: #217 Obdicut

I don't think we're talking about religious trends so much as political trends. And political trends can be very short-spanned. The Tea Party, for example.

There are three questions - both of which I'm interested in. The first is whether the power of fundamentalist, conservative Christians have grown. That anyone could dispute that seems positively absurd to me.

The second question is whether that increase in influence is reflective of a demographic shift towards fundamentalism. That question is one I think is much more open to question. My sense is that the numbers in a general sense has grown.

I guess the third question is whether, assuming that the influence of conservative, fundamentalists has grown, there is an important politicaldistinction to be made there between the growth in influence of fundamentalism in a more general sense, and the growth of sub-categories like the Reconstuctionists.

245 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:16:47pm

re: #242 palomino

wow, you got me, genius///

Not really

Just read what he (Ace) wrote,,, not what I wanted to attribute to him

246 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:17:09pm

re: #238 Aceofwhat?

so, for the record, you're comfortable making climate change assertions based on a time window of one decade?

No. I'm pointing out that climatic trends often occur in smaller timeframes than ten years. Showing that El Nino/La Nina is a repeating trend takes longer, of course, but is also predictable.

I'm not really sure what you're asking, or why you're asking it.

247 compound idaho  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:17:14pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm from earthquake country myself.

I was in Sunnyvale on October 17, 1989, at 5:04 p.m. Quite a learning experience.

We have a pretty good understanding of where major earthquakes may occur so can take many of the precautions and engineering measures that will be beneficial. Beyond that, unless you can predict the hour or day, earthquake prediction is of little use. You cannot evacuate SF or turn off the gas for a year, month, or even a week.

248 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:18:13pm

re: #234 joe90

Felt from one end of the South Island to the other with damage reported in a 10-15+KM radius.

Wow! Did it affect the volcanoes? I guess they're on the Northern Island, eh?

249 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:18:35pm

re: #245 sattv4u2

Not really

Just read what he (Ace) wrote,,, not what I wanted to attribute to him

I read what the other guy wrote, not what I wanted to attribute to HIM. Oh, well, you say tomato...

250 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:18:41pm

re: #247 compound idaho

Heh. Having moved to New York from SF, I don't think of this place as a place that doesn't get earthquakes, but just one that gets them rarely-- and if it does, it'll be disastrous.

251 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:19:18pm

re: #249 palomino

I read what the other guy wrote, not what I wanted to attribute to HIM. Oh, well, you say tomato...

And I said what he wrote!

252 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:19:19pm

But they are a tiny fringe with little power

i see them more as sharp little whiplike appendages on a nightmarish hallucination of a B&D outfit with their own little source of electric power just enough to deliver a painful shock

253 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:19:44pm

re: #251 sattv4u2

And I said what he wrote!

dittohead

254 joe90  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:20:15pm

Video from Sumner, a few km from the city centre.

255 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:20:17pm

re: #240 Obdicut

Again, since I don't think we're really talking about a religious trend-- nor do I agree that either religious, political, or climactic trends necessarily need a longer period than ten years, that's kinda moot.

But even if we just take 1999: Since 1999, we have seen an increase in the push for creationism in the classroom, anti-abortion laws, anti-AGW attitudes, et al., all from conservative Christians.

that's fine. i disagree that noteworthy trends as a rule can be properly identified, in religious, political or climactic trends, with only ten years or less as context.

so that explains why we disagree. no problem. i agree to disagree. and this Bombay is hitting the spot...

256 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:21:20pm

re: #247 compound idaho

I was in south S.F. near the airport that day, and in the valley in early 1971-(Sylmar quake) and of course at home for the big Northridge quake. 3 big ones and they all scared the heck out of me. I'm lucky-Never got a scratch. I hope L.A sends some of our highly trained earthquake rescue guys over there.

257 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:21:31pm

re: #247 compound idaho

I was in Sunnyvale on October 17, 1989, at 5:04 p.m. Quite a learning experience.

We have a pretty good understanding of where major earthquakes may occur so can take many of the precautions and engineering measures that will be beneficial. Beyond that, unless you can predict the hour or day, earthquake prediction is of little use. You cannot evacuate SF or turn off the gas for a year, month, or even a week.

never seen a tornado or rode out a hurricane, no quaking or flooding for me....but I've had a life load of mean asses women

258 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:21:42pm

re: #244 Talking Point Detective

There are three questions - both of which I'm interested in. The first is whether the power of fundamentalist, conservative Christians have grown. That anyone could dispute that seems positively absurd to me.

The second question is whether that increase in influence is reflective of a demographic shift towards fundamentalism. That question is one I think is much more open to question. My sense is that the numbers in a general sense has grown.

I guess the third question is whether, assuming that the influence of conservative, fundamentalists has grown, there is an important politicaldistinction to be made there between the growth in influence of fundamentalism in a more general sense, and the growth of sub-categories like the Reconstuctionists.

There's a complicator in there--in terms of a hundred years ago, the power (social control) of Christians has declined rather radically. In 1910, much of what today's RW is struggling to establish was taken as a matter of course. Abortion, homosexuality, blue laws, a strangle-hold on political office were already in place.

259 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:21:49pm

Lindt chocolate Truffles

I highly recommend them!

260 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:22:09pm

re: #242 palomino

wow, you got me, genius///

easy. he's right. in conventional speech, a person who says "in the 1700's" is properly understood as referring to the century, not the decade. we're just not used to referring to the 1900's as such because it did imply the decade of 1900-1910 when we were still in that century.

261 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:23:05pm

re: #257 albusteve

never seen a tornado or rode out a hurricane, no quaking or flooding for me...but I've had a life load of mean asses women

[Video]

/till you rode one through a quake you just a school boy...

262 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:23:06pm

re: #260 Aceofwhat?

again ,, n/p

(but thanks)

263 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:23:14pm

re: #258 Decatur Deb

There's a complicator in there--in terms of a hundred years ago, the power (social control) of Christians has declined rather radically. In 1910, much of what today's RW is struggling to establish was taken as a matter of course. Abortion, homosexuality, blue laws, a strangle-hold on political office were already in place.

bingo

264 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:23:20pm

Oh Oregon *_* [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Yep, that's my state, bringing it

265 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:23:34pm

re: #258 Decatur Deb

There's a complicator in there

That's why we can't have nice things!

266 compound idaho  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:24:08pm

re: #250 Obdicut

Heh. Having moved to New York from SF, I don't think of this place as a place that doesn't get earthquakes, but just one that gets them rarely-- and if it does, it'll be disastrous.

That is very true. We know that there have been large earthquakes in places usualy not considered earthquake country. Building codes have saved more lives than almost anything I can think of regarding earthquakes. After all, earthquakes don't kill people; buildings do.

267 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:24:33pm

Good essay. The point it makes is of the highest import. Sorry I'm late, the driver of the Pace bus I rode tonight inability to keep a constant speed led to a back-and-forth motion on the bus that left my vertigo to make a minor comeback.

268 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:24:34pm

re: #255 Aceofwhat?

that's fine. i disagree that noteworthy trends as a rule can be properly identified, in religious, political or climactic trends, with only ten years or less as context.

I think you're applying a blanket definition to the word 'trend' that doesn't apply.

For example, you can characterize a place as having a drought by noting a trend of far less than average rainfall over a course of a few years. Doing so requires a long-term knowledge of the trends of rainfall in that region, but the drought is characterized by a short-term trend.

so that explains why we disagree. no problem. i agree to disagree. and this Bombay is hitting the spot...

I don't really think it does explain why we disagree, no. I'm not even sure what you're disagreeing about, frankly. I have no idea what you're asserting.

You think that one can't simply say that since 1999, the influence of the radical Christian right has grown in the GOP, and that influence has had actual legislative ramifications? That's not a legitimate statement?

269 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:24:47pm

re: #264 WindUpBird

Oh Oregon *_* [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Yep, that's my state, bringing it

ahaaa, i saw that on Shep today (the only Fox show that i like, but i stand by it). forgot to give you sh$t about it...

270 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:24:48pm

re: #261 brookly red

/till you rode one through a quake you just a school boy...

I went to Disney MGM Studios....why doesn't that count?

271 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:26:14pm

re: #270 albusteve

I went to Disney MGM Studios...why doesn't that count?

THATS why you had your leg whopped off!!
So you could cut in line!!
//

272 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:26:31pm

re: #270 albusteve

I went to Disney MGM Studios...why doesn't that count?

did you pay for it?

273 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:26:55pm

re: #272 brookly red

did you pay for it?

Yes ,, a bag of squirrels per ride!

274 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:27:10pm

re: #260 Aceofwhat?

easy. he's right. in conventional speech, a person who says "in the 1700's" is properly understood as referring to the century, not the decade. we're just not used to referring to the 1900's as such because it did imply the decade of 1900-1910 when we were still in that century.

Of course. I was just trying to wring some humor out of a topic that apparently doesn't really lend itself to such. At least not in my hands.

But it does bring up the question--never really settled--of what we call the decade that just ended. Back in the early 20th century they called their first decade the "aughts". That sounds antiquated today and hasn't caught on with anyone whose sensibility is more modern than George Will's. So we've got people calling it the "double-zeros" or the "2000's" meaning the decade, not century.

275 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:27:20pm

re: #272 brookly red

did you pay for it?

of course...Disney is not what you call cheap

276 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:28:04pm

re: #270 albusteve

I went to Disney MGM Studios...why doesn't that count?

Not really. But you've been through enough in life you don't need to engage in any resume padding.

277 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:28:04pm

re: #273 sattv4u2

Yes ,, a bag of squirrels per ride!

how many squirrels in a bag?

278 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:28:13pm

re: #258 Decatur Deb

There's a complicator in there--in terms of a hundred years ago, the power (social control) of Christians has declined rather radically. In 1910, much of what today's RW is struggling to establish was taken as a matter of course. Abortion, homosexuality, blue laws, a strangle-hold on political office were already in place.

Good point. And we could go back even further and compare the early 1900s to earlier periods in our history. But back to the start of the discussion, the original issue in question was measuring the power/influence of fundies and/or Reconstructionists in the U.S. today. Maybe less than the early 1900s, but certainly more than the early 1980s, IMO - to the point where it represents a very real danger. For example, religious fundamentalism is very closely linked to climate change denial. It certainly is closely linked to the anti-science stream of the Republican Party.

279 joe90  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:28:20pm

re: #248 Talking Point Detective

Wow! Did it affect the volcanoes? I guess they're on the Northern Island, eh?

Aye, the central plateau of the North Island and I live about 150km from Mt Ruapehu. Here's a video of the 1995 Mt Ruapehu eruption.

280 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:28:23pm

re: #269 Aceofwhat?

ahaaa, i saw that on Shep today (the only Fox show that i like, but i stand by it). forgot to give you sh$t about it...

Believe me, I take full ownership, if this is what happens to Oregon Dems when they tip over, well AWESOME

281 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:28:42pm

re: #277 brookly red

how many squirrels in a bag?

Depends on the size of the bag

and the size of the squirrels

You really should know that!

282 compound idaho  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:29:07pm

re: #257 albusteve

never seen a tornado or rode out a hurricane, no quaking or flooding for me...but I've had a life load of mean asses women

[Video]

I've done the earthquake and hurricane things both while on business travel. You know one of the things I remember most. Shit I'm glad the cook and waitress came to work today. I'm hungry and every single f.....n store is closed!

283 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:30:24pm

re: #240 Obdicut

Again, since I don't think we're really talking about a religious trend-- nor do I agree that either religious, political, or climactic trends necessarily need a longer period than ten years, that's kinda moot.

But even if we just take 1999: Since 1999, we have seen an increase in the push for creationism in the classroom, anti-abortion laws, anti-AGW attitudes, et al., all from conservative Christians.

I've seen a huge increase in this kind of craziness since the 2010 election. The forces of atavism are emboldened -- there are regressive efforts going on in every state, trying to roll back progress on women's rights, climate change, science, tolerance, you name it. The nuts are in charge of the Republican Party.

284 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:30:36pm

re: #276 Dark_Falcon

Not really. But you've been through enough in life you don't need to engage in any resume padding.

all real men have to do a quake, a cane, or a tornado to be stout, heroic etc....man against nature

285 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:31:02pm

re: #268 Obdicut

I think you're applying a blanket definition to the word 'trend' that doesn't apply.

For example, you can characterize a place as having a drought by noting a trend of far less than average rainfall over a course of a few years. Doing so requires a long-term knowledge of the trends of rainfall in that region, but the drought is characterized by a short-term trend.

but short-term trends are not a cause for alarm unless their context (i.e. long-term history) would indicate a cause for alarm. therefore, you are either alarmed about a short-term trend without understanding the longer-term context, or you believe that the longer-term context...for example, the past century...should lead us to look upon the last decade with alarm. in that case, please illuminate the longer-term context for me.

and that's even if i accept the premise that there is "more"...what was your term...'influence of the radical religious right'...which i don't.

286 miclaine  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:31:34pm

Very interesting perspective.
Thank Charles.

287 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:31:41pm

re: #283 Charles

I've seen a huge increase in this kind of craziness since the 2010 election. The forces of atavism are emboldened -- there are regressive efforts going on in every state, trying to roll back progress on women's rights, climate change, science, tolerance, you name it. The nuts are in charge of the Republican Party.

Despite all the talk of his extremism, George W Bush was actually a moderating force in the GOP.

288 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:32:22pm

re: #255 Aceofwhat?

that's fine. i disagree that noteworthy trends as a rule can be properly identified, in religious, political or climactic trends, with only ten years or less as context.

so that explains why we disagree. no problem. i agree to disagree. and this Bombay is hitting the spot...

My observation is that the so-con fury in America has been awakened politically in the last three years. They are now applying pressure from the grassroots in a way they weren't before. two terms of Bush and the Iraq war kept them placated and sorta swimming in circles, believing they were getting traction on abortion when they really were not.

Instead we got THE SCHIAVO which was theater and distraction. Giving the anti-abortion so-cons a fake cause instead of their real, more troublesome cause.

Now Obama is in office and they are like GAAAAAAAAAAH full steam ahead. they're empowered because they no longer have the zookeepers of a republican-dominated house/senate/presidency

289 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:33:08pm

re: #287 palomino

Despite all the talk of his extremism, George W Bush was actually a moderating force in the GOP.

I ABSOLUTELY AGREE, 100%

When Bush wa sin charge, there wasn't their urgency, see my 288 etc etc

290 compound idaho  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:34:06pm

re: #284 albusteve

all real men have to do a quake, a cane, or a tornado to be stout, heroic etc...man against nature

But what if I screamed like a little girl? Do they still count?

291 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:34:27pm

re: #274 palomino

Of course. I was just trying to wring some humor out of a topic that apparently doesn't really lend itself to such. At least not in my hands.

But it does bring up the question--never really settled--of what we call the decade that just ended. Back in the early 20th century they called their first decade the "aughts". That sounds antiquated today and hasn't caught on with anyone whose sensibility is more modern than George Will's. So we've got people calling it the "double-zeros" or the "2000's" meaning the decade, not century.

i'll be the last to spurn an attempt to squeeze a drop of humor out of a topic stone!

i think that the current date matters. the 1900's = the decade when the date was 19xx. the 2000's = the decade when the date is 20xx. once it's 2100, saying "the 2000's" should imply the century, where before it used to imply the decade.

or maybe we'll all be speaking binary and making offerings to Overlord Watson in 2100...who knows...

292 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:34:32pm

re: #285 Aceofwhat?

but short-term trends are not a cause for alarm unless their context (i.e. long-term history) would indicate a cause for alarm.

Why do you think that?

and that's even if i accept the premise that there is "more"...what was your term...'influence of the radical religious right'...which i don't.

But why don't you? Why are you dismissing the attempts to get creationism into schools, the attacks on abortion rights, the religiously-based objections to AGW?

293 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:34:50pm

re: #284 albusteve

I've been through a feelable Earthquake in Norman in the past 6 months, a tornado through my backyard when I was six, and Lived through Hurricane Erin in 1995. (I was born in Florida, and my family moved when my father got a job in Colorado when I was 7.)

294 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:35:27pm

re: #287 palomino

Despite all the talk of his extremism, George W Bush was actually a moderating force in the GOP.

Not in terms of the linkage between the party mainstream and Christian fundamentalists.

295 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:35:34pm

re: #278 Talking Point Detective

Good point. And we could go back even further and compare the early 1900s to earlier periods in our history. But back to the start of the discussion, the original issue in question was measuring the power/influence of fundies and/or Reconstructionists in the U.S. today. Maybe less than the early 1900s, but certainly more than the early 1980s, IMO - to the point where it represents a very real danger. For example, religious fundamentalism is very closely linked to climate change denial. It certainly is closely linked to the anti-science stream of the Republican Party.

Seriously, they look like a revitalistic movement like the Ghost Dance or the African Kahkists. That is, they are under stress and reacting to losing their grip on the culture. I blame the Warren court, Radio, talking pictures, and Rock & Roll.

296 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:35:43pm

Off topic, but funny nonetheless .


Yes, a camel in Madison

297 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:36:36pm

re: #295 Decatur Deb

Pimf: Khakists.

298 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:36:42pm

re: #287 palomino

Despite all the talk of his extremism, George W Bush was actually a moderating force in the GOP.

Quite Concur.

299 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:37:14pm

re: #296 BryanS

Off topic, but funny nonetheless .

Yes, a camel in Madison

/ you scoff at the notion of sharia creep!

300 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:37:18pm

re: #289 WindUpBird

I ABSOLUTELY AGREE, 100%

When Bush wa sin charge, there wasn't their urgency, see my 288 etc etc

Bush, and more specifically, Rove, were basically responsible for making the Christian right such an influential force in American politics. I agree that it's gotten far worse, but their role in putting this trend into place shouldn't be overlooked.

301 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:37:57pm

re: #295 Decatur Deb

Seriously, they look like a revitalistic movement like the Ghost Dance or the African Kahkists. That is, they are under stress and reacting to losing their grip on the culture. I blame the Warren court, Radio, talking pictures, and Rock & Roll.

you left out poodle dogs, mixed drinks, close dancing, and baptism without full immersion

302 albusteve  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:38:06pm

poor Elvis...stuck in Hollywood, satirizing himself

303 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:38:32pm

a brief music break (courtesy of Louis Bellson and Wardell Gray) -

The Jeep Is Jumpin'


(im heading to bed. g'night all)

304 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:38:45pm

re: #285 Aceofwhat?

but short-term trends are not a cause for alarm unless their context (i.e. long-term history) would indicate a cause for alarm.

Short-term trends are a cause for alarm when they're capable of doing long-term damage.

305 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:38:45pm

re: #300 Talking Point Detective

Bush, and more specifically, Rove, were basically responsible for making the Christian right such an influential force in American politics. I agree that it's gotten far worse, but their role in putting this trend into place shouldn't be overlooked.

That was a trend that started with Reagan.

306 Gus  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:39:09pm

Breaking News!

John Travolta without his hair piece...

Image: 0221-john-travolta-bald-00-480x720.jpg

307 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:39:24pm

re: #300 Talking Point Detective

Bush, and more specifically, Rove, were basically responsible for making the Christian right such an influential force in American politics

Nah. It really started back in the 1990s.

This is a nifty site with a good history of it, though more aggressively biased than I am.

[Link: www.theocracywatch.org...]

308 freetoken  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:39:35pm

re: #300 Talking Point Detective

Not sure about that. It was Reagan who used the religious right in 1980, and it was the ensconcing of people like Dobson, LaHaye, etc. into the inner workings of GOP politically machinery back then that paved the way for what happened 20 years later.

309 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:39:58pm

re: #304 publicityStunted

Short-term trends are a cause for alarm when they're capable of doing long-term damage.

so I guess the recent spending spree is cause for concern?

310 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:40:13pm

re: #295 Decatur Deb

How could you forget the Gap?
Khakiests par excellence!

311 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:40:30pm

re: #300 Talking Point Detective

Bush, and more specifically, Rove, were basically responsible for making the Christian right such an influential force in American politics. I agree that it's gotten far worse, but their role in putting this trend into place shouldn't be overlooked.

There is a degree to whicch the wingnuts are also pissed because Bush didn't deliver their agenda lock stock and barrel, some of them admit it and some don't.

312 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:40:39pm

re: #285 Aceofwhat?

but short-term trends are not a cause for alarm unless their context (i.e. long-term history) would indicate a cause for alarm.

The short term trend of climate change denial may have ramifications for the humankind for centuries into the future.

The short term trend of abortion/marriage legislation affects millions of Americans on a daily basis.

It's small consolation that you think that the importance of the short term trend is outweighed by the larger trend.

313 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:40:40pm

re: #308 freetoken

Yeah, I'd say they got invited in in a serious way in the 80s, and started taking over in the 90s.

314 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:41:04pm

re: #304 publicityStunted

re: #312 Talking Point Detective

I hate it when that happens.

315 freetoken  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:41:06pm

And even back 12 more years, it was Nixon who made the South a base for Republican politics, a party that up to that time was dominated by NE industrialists, Midwestern professionals, and Western libertarians.

316 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:41:48pm

“This is history,” Andrew Breitbart declared in a speech to the pro-Walker faction. “We are going to let the American people know, in every single state, that we have every governor and every legislator’s back. We are the modern-day peace movement. This is the peace movement.” He pointed across the square to where union supporters marched and concluded: “that is where the anarchists are.”

apparantly the same anarchists who are in favor of big government regulating every aspect of our lives that we hear the right wing talking about so much

but i'm permanently confused anyway so what the hell...

317 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:42:03pm

re: #309 brookly red

so I guess the recent spending spree is cause for concern?

The deficit went down in Obama's first year.

He's batting 50/50 on that score ;-)

a.5 average ain't all that bad considering the previous 8 years.

318 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:43:10pm

re: #315 freetoken

Big Government anarchists! They're the problem.

319 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:43:13pm

re: #317 wozzablog

The deficit went down in Obama's first year.

He's batting 50/50 on that score ;-)

a.5 average ain't all that bad considering the previous 8 years.

ummm, link please.

320 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:43:30pm

re: #296 BryanS

Off topic, but funny nonetheless .

Yes, a camel in Madison

The Midwest has much colder weather than Cairo, and the beast fell down. I do hope it's alright.

321 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:43:32pm

re: #316 engineer dog

“This is history,” Andrew Breitbart declared in a speech to the pro-Walker faction. “We are going to let the American people know, in every single state, that we have every governor and every legislator’s back. We are the modern-day peace movement. This is the peace movement.” He pointed across the square to where union supporters marched and concluded: “that is where the anarchists are.”


Hang on - "organised" labour are anarchists?

:p


yo can not satirize this shit.

322 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:44:02pm

re: #317 wozzablog

The deficit went down in Obama's first year.

He's batting 50/50 on that score ;-)

a.5 average ain't all that bad considering the previous 8 years.

Care to back that claim up? I'm not saying it was all his fault--the emergency spending was set in motion by Bush and embraced by Obama. That claim just seems made up is all.

323 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:44:50pm

re: #320 Dark_Falcon

The Midwest has much colder weather than Cairo, and the beast fell down. I do hope it's alright.

He is...you can see the videos. Madison fire came to the rescue, and the camel got back up and was able to stand/walk.

324 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:44:56pm

re: #308 freetoken

Not sure about that. It was Reagan who used the religious right in 1980, and it was the ensconcing of people like Dobson, LaHaye, etc. into the inner workings of GOP politically machinery back then that paved the way for what happened 20 years later.

This is consistent with my take on it:

No one realized the importance of pleasing the Religious Right more than Karl Rove, the president’s top political strategist, and no one exploited religion more effectively for political gain. In addition to specific policy concessions which I will review in a moment., Rove systematically began packing the government with evangelicals and social conservatives. The priority was getting them into agencies and departments such as the FDA, Health and Human Services, Justice and Education that deal with priority issues for the Religious Right.

For Evangelicals, one of the most welcomed appointments was that of John Ashcroft as attorney general. Ashcroft is a Pentecostal who once declared that “America has no King but Jesus,” and who has accused liberal judges of turning church-state separation into what he called “a wall of oppression.” On important occasions, Ashcroft anoints himself with cooking oil as King David did in the Bible, and one of his first moves was to cover a bare breast on a statue of the Spirit of Justice outside his office.As significant as the appointments was a new practice at the White House of consultation with the Religious Right on all initiatives affecting its agenda. Weekly conference calls were held with evangelical leaders, and a religious outreach team was set up in the West Wing to inform Christian Conservative leaders of forthcoming presidential events and, on occasion, to seek their help in drafting legislation.

The Office of Faith-Based Initiatives

Much higher-profile was the new Office of Faith-Based Initiatives that was also established in the White House. It was designed to be the cornerstone of Bush’s campaign promise of a so-called “compassionate conservatism.” Its major theorist is a former Marxist and Jewish convert to Christianity named Marvin Olasky with whom I spent an intriguing afternoon in Texas just prior to Bush’s election. Olasky explained to me that poor people, drug-addicts and criminals cannot be helped much by government social programs. They must recognize their sinfulness and be redeemed by Christ. Taxpayers’ money therefore must be transferred away from government programs and into church-based charities that offer redemption along with conventional social services.

[Link: www.trinity.utoronto.ca...]

325 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:44:57pm

re: #283 Charles

I've seen a huge increase in this kind of craziness since the 2010 election. The forces of atavism are emboldened -- there are regressive efforts going on in every state, trying to roll back progress on women's rights, climate change, science, tolerance, you name it. The nuts are in charge of the Republican Party.

And i simultaneously agree with the recent craziness increase but disagree that the long-term demographics favor the the forces of atavism.

326 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:45:13pm

re: #320 Dark_Falcon

The Midwest has much colder weather than Cairo, and the beast fell down. I do hope it's alright.

a bit stringy but not too bad...

327 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:46:05pm

re: #316 engineer dog

“This is history,” Andrew Breitbart declared in a speech to the pro-Walker faction. “We are going to let the American people know, in every single state, that we have every governor and every legislator’s back. We are the modern-day peace movement. This is the peace movement.” He pointed across the square to where union supporters marched and concluded: “that is where the anarchists are.”

apparantly the same anarchists who are in favor of big government regulating every aspect of our lives that we hear the right wing talking about so much

but i'm permanently confused anyway so what the hell...

What you need to do is think of any speech Andrew Breitbart gives in Wisconsin or Illinois as the equivalent of a sewer pipe spewing sludge into Lake Michigan, then it all makes sense.

328 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:46:50pm

re: #310 Floral Giraffe

How could you forget the Gap?
Khakiests par excellence!

That's where only the wealthier Khakists get their khakis. (The name does come from the uniform the devotees adopted--another 'God's Army' kind of shtick.)

329 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:47:16pm

re: #292 Obdicut

But why don't you? Why are you dismissing the attempts to get creationism into schools, the attacks on abortion rights, the religiously-based objections to AGW?

I did not dismiss it. I said that the long-term trends do not favor the Reconstructionists. There is no established long-term data to contradict me, as far as i know. If you have some, be my guest.

You haven't seen me here dismissing the recent crazy episodes, and i'm not starting now.

330 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:47:44pm

re: #324 Talking Point Detective

From the same source:

Well, Rove’s strategy may have been cynical but it paid off handsomely. In 2004 Republican candidates won nineteen of twenty targeted Congressional races in which faith-based money had been promised or delivered. Rove also arranged with the Religious Right to have electors in key states such as Ohio vote on banning gay marriage at the same time as they voted for president. The ballot initiatives were designed to maximize the voting strength of hard-line evangelicals for whom homosexuality is regarded as a dire threat to the country.

This was Rove's genius.

331 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:47:44pm

re: #326 brookly red

a bit stringy but not too bad...

[smiles]

332 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:48:53pm

re: #319 brookly red

ummm, link please.

easy as pie

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

333 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:49:08pm

re: #322 BryanS

Care to back that claim up? I'm not saying it was all his fault--the emergency spending was set in motion by Bush and embraced by Obama. That claim just seems made up is all.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

334 joe90  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:49:18pm

re: #283 Charles

I've seen a huge increase in this kind of craziness since the 2010 election. The forces of atavism are emboldened -- there are regressive efforts going on in every state, trying to roll back progress on women's rights, climate change, science, tolerance, you name it. The nuts are in charge of the Republican Party.

Here in NZ we have more than a few crazies who hang off every word uttered by your nuts and then regurgitate their lunacy, verbatim. Example below.

[Link: webcache.googleusercontent.com...]

335 freetoken  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:49:38pm

re: #330 Talking Point Detective

From the same source:

This was Rove's genius.

Yes, by motivating a voting segment through hot-button issues, thus increasing turnout of that block of voters.

336 freetoken  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:50:39pm

Nothing scares the RR like teh ghey. It appears to be the utter abomination to them, so it's a great motivator to float something to fight it.

337 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:50:51pm

re: #304 publicityStunted

Short-term trends are a cause for alarm when they're capable of doing long-term damage.

your concern is duly noted.

338 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:50:58pm

re: #334 joe90

Message to the Religious Right in the United States:

Please stop speaking your derpy shit. You're exporting it, and that is not really needed.

PLL

339 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:51:15pm

re: #329 Aceofwhat?

I did not dismiss it. I said that the long-term trends do not favor the Reconstructionists. There is no established long-term data to contradict me, as far as i know. If you have some, be my guest..

No, long-term trends don't favor them. I'm really unsure what the import of that is, though.

You haven't seen me here dismissing the recent crazy episodes, and i'm not starting now

Well, saying that short term trends aren't a cause for alarm is rather dismissive. You may not be dismissing their craziness, but saying they're not a cause for alarm seems rather blasé.

340 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:51:19pm

re: #332 wozzablog

easy as pie

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

OK, I will buy that...now lets see 2011.

341 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:51:33pm

re: #333 wozzablog

The link does not support your claim that "The deficit went down in Obama's first year."

The budget deficit for fiscal 2010 narrowed to $1.294 trillion from last year's record $1.416 trillion as tax collections started to recover and bailout spending fell sharply.

Obama's first year was a record deficit--the next your would have also been that if not for his first year.

342 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:52:38pm

re: #339 Obdicut

You may not be dismissing their craziness, but saying they're not a cause for alarm seems rather blasé.

Ya' think?

343 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:53:14pm

re: #339 Obdicut

No, long-term trends don't favor them. I'm really unsure what the import of that is, though.

Then you should scroll up and read. It's what we were talking about.

344 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:53:21pm

re: #341 BryanS

The link does not support your claim that "The deficit went down in Obama's first year."

Obama's first year was a record deficit--the next youryear would have also been that if not for his first year.

PIMF

345 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:53:29pm

re: #341 BryanS

The link does not support your claim that "The deficit went down in Obama's first year."

Obama's first year was a record deficit--the next your would have also been that if not for his first year.

well semantics all... we are in way over our heads and the solution ain't pretty.

346 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:54:08pm

re: #337 Aceofwhat?

your concern is duly noted.

So let's condescend to people who are concerned about the influence of religious fundamentalism in today's legislature?

347 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:55:01pm

re: #341 BryanS

The link does not support your claim that "The deficit went down in Obama's first year."

Obama's first year was a record deficit--the next your would have also been that if not for his first year.

Bush's last budgetary year had a deficit of 1.4trillion.

Obama's first had a deficit of 1.2trillion (despite all the gloom over his spending programmes).

2011's deficit will be needlessly revised upwards because of he obstructionism over the upperclass tax rates and other revenue enhancing meausres the Democrats wanted to enact.

348 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:55:03pm

re: #341 BryanS

The link does not support your claim that "The deficit went down in Obama's first year."

Obama's first year was a record deficit--the next your would have also been that if not for his first year.

it's like saying that my tennis game sucked a little less this week than last week...it's not exactly the same as saying that i played well.

349 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:55:22pm

re: #343 Aceofwhat?

Then you should scroll up and read. It's what we were talking about.

What do you mean "we," white man?

350 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:55:35pm

re: #346 Talking Point Detective

So let's condescend to people who are concerned about the influence of religious fundamentalism in today's legislature?

you're complaining about sarcasm at LGF? really?

351 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:55:44pm

re: #349 Talking Point Detective

What do you mean "we," white man?

LOL!

352 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:55:54pm

re: #349 Talking Point Detective

What do you mean "we," white man?

now that's funny. updinged-

353 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:56:18pm

re: #346 Talking Point Detective

So let's condescend to people who are concerned about the influence of religious fundamentalism in today's legislature?

well like it or not religious people do have the right to vote.

354 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:56:41pm

re: #291 Aceofwhat?

i'll be the last to spurn an attempt to squeeze a drop of humor out of a topic stone!

i think that the current date matters. the 1900's = the decade when the date was 19xx. the 2000's = the decade when the date is 20xx. once it's 2100, saying "the 2000's" should imply the century, where before it used to imply the decade.

or maybe we'll all be speaking binary and making offerings to Overlord Watson in 2100...who knows...

But what do we call this past decade--the one that started in 2000, or if you're a real stickler, in 2001? Either way, now that it's over, I think we should all get a handle on this.

355 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:57:06pm

re: #346 Talking Point Detective

So let's condescend to people who are concerned about the influence of religious fundamentalism in today's legislature?

in all seriousness, the short-term wackos are concerning. they'll die eventually, but it would be better to not have to wait that long to rid ourselves of teh crazy.

(how's that for an olive branch...)

356 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:57:18pm

re: #348 Aceofwhat?

it's like saying that my tennis game sucked a little less this week than last week...it's not exactly the same as saying that i played well.

Good analogy. But i'd take a better game over a good game if it got some sort of result - if that makes sense.

357 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:57:24pm

re: #339 Obdicut

No, long-term trends don't favor them. I'm really unsure what the import of that is, though.

Well, saying that short term trends aren't a cause for alarm is rather dismissive. You may not be dismissing their craziness, but saying they're not a cause for alarm seems rather blasé.

I'm not blase about them, just pick my panics from a large menu. Let's say they're "cause for concern". Mostly they're just interesting to watch.

358 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:57:46pm

re: #345 brookly red

well semantics all... we are in way over our heads and the solution ain't pretty.

Yeah, we're seeing that right now in Wisconsin.

359 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:58:17pm

re: #345 brookly red

well semantics all... we are in way over our heads and the solution ain't pretty.

No, the solutions are not pretty. When more than 60% of the federal budget is entitlements and interest on the debt, and we are spending 1.5 times what we take in for income, everything other than entitlements can be set to $0 and we still would not be out of our hole.

360 freetoken  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:59:08pm

re: #359 BryanS

Raise taxes.

361 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:59:21pm

re: #358 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, we're seeing that right now in Wisconsin.

and that is just the start of the inevitable.

362 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 6:59:57pm

re: #294 Talking Point Detective

Not in terms of the linkage between the party mainstream and Christian fundamentalists.

True, and I'm no huge fan of George Bush, but he looks pretty good in the rear view mirror compared to the blowhard extremists who now lead the party.

I don't think "compassionate conservatism" was a totally empty slogan. But the current GOP has nothing but disdain for that phrase.

363 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:00:12pm

re: #354 palomino

But what do we call this past decade--the one that started in 2000, or if you're a real stickler, in 2001? Either way, now that it's over, I think we should all get a handle on this.

i still like "the 2000's". and then in 2100, we can call it 1100010011010101/

364 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:00:13pm

re: #353 brookly red

well like it or not religious people do have the right to vote.

Who questioned their right to vote? Not me. I don't question their right to organize either.

I'm not sure why that would be exclusive with concerns about the political influence of the religious right.

365 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:00:18pm

re: #343 Aceofwhat?

Then you should scroll up and read. It's what we were talking about.

I think we're perfectly capable about talking about multiple things.

That there's a long-term demographical trend against the dominionists doesn't mean that the actions of dominonists can't affect those very demographics. They're trying to by, for example, ending birthright citizenship.

Demographics aren't a constant. I don't think the dominionists will win, but I believe that is because they are actively opposed, not simply because the blind will of demographics churns along.

And before they are rendered politically impotent, they will do huge amounts of damage. They already have, in spreading AGW denial far and wide.

366 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:00:20pm

re: #360 freetoken

Raise taxes.

No.

/

367 calochortus  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:00:35pm

re: #328 Decatur Deb

That's where only the wealthier Khakists get their khakis. (The name does come from the uniform the devotees adopted--another 'God's Army' kind of shtick.)

I had to go look up Kakist. I learned something new :-) But khaki is a different word entirely, comes from the Sanskrit for "dust colored". A very practical color in that neck of the woods. Kakist comes from the Greek for "worst".

368 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:00:43pm

re: #300 Talking Point Detective

Bush, and more specifically, Rove, were basically responsible for making the Christian right such an influential force in American politics. I agree that it's gotten far worse, but their role in putting this trend into place shouldn't be overlooked.

no way, it was Reagan, 100%

Bush/Rove just rode the roller coaster than Reagan already built

Thanks, Reagan! Thanks for empowering these guys! We appreciate it!

369 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:00:47pm

re: #360 freetoken

Raise taxes. Kill Productivity and Competitiveness.

Fixed

370 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:00:59pm

re: #347 wozzablog

Bush's last budgetary year had a deficit of 1.4trillion.

Obama's first had a deficit of 1.2trillion (despite all the gloom over his spending programmes).

2011's deficit will be needlessly revised upwards because of he obstructionism over the upperclass tax rates and other revenue enhancing meausres the Democrats wanted to enact.

So you're calling Obama's first year "Bush's" last year? In a way that's true, but Obama was responsible for shepherding through the spending increases with the $1 trillion stimulus bill. As I say, not all his fault, but a bit disingenuous to claim none of it was Obama's call.

371 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:01:16pm

re: #356 wozzablog

Good analogy. But i'd take a better game over a good game if it got some sort of result - if that makes sense.

i'm just bluffing. it's been me vs. the ball machine during the past two weekends...i never win that battle!

372 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:01:21pm

re: #306 Gus 802

Breaking News!

John Travolta without his hair piece...

Image: 0221-john-travolta-bald-00-480x720.jpg

still looks pretty good for a 57-year old. we should all be so unlucky.

373 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:01:39pm

re: #359 BryanS

No, the solutions are not pretty. When more than 60% of the federal budget is entitlements and interest on the debt, and we are spending 1.5 times what we take in for income, everything other than entitlements can be set to $0 and we still would not be out of our hole.

indeed... we are about to see some things that a lot of people are not going to like.

374 freetoken  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:01:47pm

re: #366 wozzablog

No.

375 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:01:51pm

re: #369 Dark_Falcon

Dark:

A) Do you think that all tax raises kill productivity?

B) Do you remember when we had a conversation about progressive taxation, and I explained to you how progressive taxation actually operates?

376 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:02:04pm

re: #353 brookly red

well like it or not religious people do have the right to vote.

Yeah, and enough of them get guys into office that mandate the sexual violation of any woman who dares want an abortion

America, fuck yeah

377 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:02:16pm

re: #360 freetoken

Raise taxes.

And reform entitlements.

378 freetoken  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:02:37pm

re: #377 BryanS

And reform entitlements.

Meaning....?

379 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:02:37pm

re: #362 palomino

True, and I'm no huge fan of George Bush, but he looks pretty good in the rear view mirror compared to the blowhard extremists who now lead the party.

I don't think "compassionate conservatism" was a totally empty slogan. But the current GOP has nothing but disdain for that phrase.

I don't think the term was completely empty for Bush. It was completely empty for Rove, however:

From the same source:

One of the best inside sources we have on the issue is David Kuo, who published a book last year entitled Tempting Faith. Kuo is an evangelical with impeccable conservative credentials who became second in command of the White House Office of Faith-Based Initiatives. He writes that Karl Rove and others would bestow hugs and kisses on religious leaders then, in private, dismiss them as quote “ nuts” and “goofy.” According to Kuo, far less money was spent on faith-based initiatives than promised, and much of it went to ostensibly non-partisan events that were designed to win support in key swing states.

I'm not inclined to give Bush the pass that some of the folks here seem to be inclined to do. I suspect it's because some of them weren't concerned about what Bush was doing when he was doing it. For others, what we have today was the logical extension of what was happening back then.

380 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:02:50pm

re: #372 palomino

still looks pretty good for a 57-year old. we should all be so unlucky.

He's had his bad luck, too. I'm sure he'd trade every aspect of his good looks for his son back again.

381 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:02:51pm

re: #359 BryanS

No, the solutions are not pretty. When more than 60% of the federal budget is entitlements and interest on the debt, and we are spending 1.5 times what we take in for income, everything other than entitlements can be set to $0 and we still would not be out of our hole.

Rationalise (not blindly cut) spending on defence, ss and medicare/medicaid (the big areas of the budget).

Stop pansying around with the 3% of the non-defence discretionary spending and return tax rates on those earning over $250,000 to where they were under Cilnton.........

382 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:02:53pm

re: #375 Obdicut

Dark:

A) Do you think that all tax raises kill productivity?

B) Do you remember when we had a conversation about progressive taxation, and I explained to you how progressive taxation actually operates?

Ah, memories

383 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:03:15pm

re: #378 freetoken

Meaning...?

health care, you know, stuff that keeps you alive

384 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:03:21pm

re: #375 Obdicut

Dark:

A) Do you think that all tax raises kill productivity?

B) Do you remember when we had a conversation about progressive taxation, and I explained to you how progressive taxation actually operates?

A) I think they all hurt it, at least in the short term.

B) No, I do not remember that conversation in any detail.

385 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:03:26pm

re: #316 engineer dog

“This is history,” Andrew Breitbart declared in a speech to the pro-Walker faction. “We are going to let the American people know, in every single state, that we have every governor and every legislator’s back. We are the modern-day peace movement. This is the peace movement.” He pointed across the square to where union supporters marched and concluded: “that is where the anarchists are.”

apparantly the same anarchists who are in favor of big government regulating every aspect of our lives that we hear the right wing talking about so much

but i'm permanently confused anyway so what the hell...

People like Father Coughlin, George Wallace, Pat Robertson and a lot of other reactionaries made similar speeches over the years. History almost never proved them right.

386 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:04:00pm

re: #374 freetoken

Is that Gaddhafi's umbrella? Cool.

387 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:04:16pm

re: #367 calochortus

I had to go look up Kakist. I learned something new :-) But khaki is a different word entirely, comes from the Sanskrit for "dust colored". A very practical color in that neck of the woods. Kakist comes from the Greek for "worst".

We might have two different groups here--In 60s African anthro classes it was "Khakist", from the (dust-colored) uniforms. I'll check, though in the past Googling didn't produce much.

388 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:04:23pm

Hey, Dark, remember when we were so unproductive during Clinton? :D :D


man, i sure would hate to be back in the mid to late 90's with all that lack of productivity

389 joe90  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:04:26pm

First quake 6.3 on the Richter scale at 12:51pm at a depth of 5km.

Aftershocks and lots of em.


[Link: www.geonet.org.nz...]

390 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:04:57pm

re: #365 Obdicut

I think we're perfectly capable about talking about multiple things.

That there's a long-term demographical trend against the dominionists doesn't mean that the actions of dominonists can't affect those very demographics. They're trying to by, for example, ending birthright citizenship.

Demographics aren't a constant. I don't think the dominionists will win, but I believe that is because they are actively opposed, not simply because the blind will of demographics churns along.

And before they are rendered politically impotent, they will do huge amounts of damage. They already have, in spreading AGW denial far and wide.

we certainly are capable of talking about multiple things. but you asked why we were talking about it, which makes the question of capability a non-sequitur.

agree with paragraphs 2 and 3.

paragraph 4: i think you overstate the US's impact on AGW (and thus our potential to slow it). the dominionists could have been silent on the matter and global carbon output over the next 50 years would not necessarily be different. don't forget how much of an impact China, India et al have.

391 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:04:59pm

re: #378 freetoken

Meaning...?

Meaning start raising the retirement age for Social Security, work to reduce Medicare fraud, make the benefits means-tested. That sort of thing.

392 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:05:01pm

I sure would hate to live in a time where we were innovating at rocket speed and actually ahead of the rest of the world


because you know, Democratic president, you know what they say about those evil Democrats

393 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:05:12pm

re: #368 WindUpBird

no way, it was Reagan, 100%

Bush/Rove just rode the roller coaster than Reagan already built

Thanks, Reagan! Thanks for empowering these guys! We appreciate it!


Reagan did not systematically organize and exploit the religious right to nearly the extent that Rove did. Evangelicals at the time were much more likely to see their religious ideology as being exclusive with political activism.

394 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:05:39pm

re: #364 Talking Point Detective

Who questioned their right to vote? Not me. I don't question their right to organize either.

I'm not sure why that would be exclusive with concerns about the political influence of the religious right.

some people here will have a problem with the rights of others... I won't name names, just read on.

395 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:05:39pm

re: #384 Dark_Falcon

B) No, I do not remember that conversation in any detail.

If someone is in a higher tax bracket, is all of their income taxed at that bracket? Yes or No? (think very, very carefully before you answer...)

396 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:05:43pm

re: #378 freetoken

Meaning...?

Raise retirement age, raise medicare age, means test elegibility for benefits, and I'm open to any other ideas. The costs will keep going up--raising taxes will not solve the whole problem alone.

397 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:06:17pm

re: #391 Dark_Falcon

Meaning start raising the retirement age for Social Security, work to reduce Medicare fraud, make the benefits means-tested. That sort of thing.

Or you could actually raise the cutoff income for paying into social sceurity, and then ir fixes itself

So a guy making $300,000 a year pays more into SS than someone making what, $70K?


But that will apparently "impact productivity" in crazy bizarro world or something

398 freetoken  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:06:51pm

re: #391 Dark_Falcon

Meaning start raising the retirement age for Social Security, work to reduce Medicare fraud, make the benefits means-tested. That sort of thing.

Ok, so you brought up SS.

But... BUT... I've been told over and over that SS has been operating in the black all these years, and thus it couldn't have contributed to the actually total debt (enumerated, issued via bonds etc.) outstanding.

399 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:07:06pm

re: #370 BryanS

So you're calling Obama's first year "Bush's" last year? In a way that's true, but Obama was responsible for shepherding through the spending increases with the $1 trillion stimulus bill. As I say, not all his fault, but a bit disingenuous to claim none of it was Obama's call.

Ahem.

Reuters - who know this shit - are saying that.

take it up with them - you wanted a link you got a link.

08/09 was the last year of the Bush Budget (Obama was sworn in on 20th Jan 2009) - how much chance did his spending have to affect the last BUSH budget deficit given that spending decisions are made a year in advance?.

400 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:07:10pm

re: #393 Talking Point Detective

Reagan did not systematically organize and exploit the religious right to nearly the extent that Rove did. Evangelicals at the time were much more likely to see their religious ideology as being exclusive with political activism.

reagan built the machine, Bush/rove perfected it.

401 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:07:34pm

re: #381 wozzablog

Rationalise (not blindly cut) spending on defence, ss and medicare/medicaid (the big areas of the budget).

Stop pansying around with the 3% of the non-defence discretionary spending and return tax rates on those earning over $250,000 to where they were under Cilnton...

Every politician is afraid of touching the big budget areas. Obama just played a round of 'you go first' with his budget proposal...and I would not be surprised to see a bunch of 'no, you go first' from the Repubs in response.

402 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:07:43pm

re: #317 wozzablog

The deficit went down in Obama's first year.

He's batting 50/50 on that score ;-)

a.5 average ain't all that bad considering the previous 8 years.

I think the deficit actually went up, but most of that increase was set in motion years before, so blaming it all on Obama is pure hackery. The deficit today under a President Hillary or McCain would be roughly the same. Structural and stuff, you know.

Causes of deficit.

403 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:07:50pm

re: #393 Talking Point Detective

Reagan did not systematically organize and exploit the religious right to nearly the extent that Rove did. Evangelicals at the time were much more likely to see their religious ideology as being exclusive with political activism.

Meaning, Bush/Rove would not have had the ability to use the RR, had Reagan not already made them a potent force. rove ain't as smart as people think he is, he just saw an opportunity

404 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:07:57pm

re: #384 Dark_Falcon

A) I think they all hurt it, at least in the short term.

B) No, I do not remember that conversation in any detail.

A) So, correspondingly, do you think every tax cut improves productivity and 'competitiveness'?

B) You were under the impression that progressive taxation meant that when your income entered a higher tax bracket, your entire income was then taxed at that rate, rather than just the portion of your income in that bracket.

So, in the simplest example, you thought that a progressive tax of 1% on incomes up to $100 and 2% on incomes above $100 meant that someone making $101 would have to pay $2.02, when in reality they'd have to pay $1.0002.

I had hoped that learning this would have been an important change in your attitude towards taxation, since it obviously is a very, very, very big difference.

405 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:08:09pm

re: #395 publicityStunted

If someone is in a higher tax bracket, is all of their income taxed at that bracket? Yes or No? (think very, very carefully before you answer...)

No, its not. That part I remember.

406 calochortus  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:08:20pm

re: #387 Decatur Deb

Interesting-I didn't get any meaningful results on 'Khakist" from Google. Maybe this is a chance to learn even more...

407 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:08:26pm

re: #399 wozzablog

Ahem.

Reuters - who know this shit - are saying that.

take it up with them - you wanted a link you got a link.

08/09 was the last year of the Bush Budget (Obama was sworn in on 20th Jan 2009) - how much chance did his spending have to affect the last BUSH budget deficit given that spending decisions are made a year in advance?.

slammmm

408 freetoken  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:08:45pm

re: #402 palomino

Illustrative, but I think the universe really doesn't work the way that graph implies.

409 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:09:05pm

re: #390 Aceofwhat?

we certainly are capable of talking about multiple things. but you asked why we were talking about it, which makes the question of capability a non-sequitur.

agree with paragraphs 2 and 3.

paragraph 4: i think you overstate the US's impact on AGW (and thus our potential to slow it). the dominionists could have been silent on the matter and global carbon output over the next 50 years would not necessarily be different. don't forget how much of an impact China, India et al have.

The US's impact on AGW is global in scale, both in terms of the amount of our carbon emissions (U.S. at 20% of the total, China at 22%, India at 5%) and in terms of our influence on climate change legislation. Not having China on board is a huge impediment, but the only way it could ever possibly happen is if the U.S. is on board first.

410 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:09:43pm

alrighty. early flight tomorrow. glad to bump in to you all again...hopefully i'll have time next weekend. i've missed it.

peace-

411 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:09:52pm

re: #390 Aceofwhat?


paragraph 4: i think you overstate the US's impact on AGW (and thus our potential to slow it). the dominionists could have been silent on the matter and global carbon output over the next 50 years would not necessarily be different. don't forget how much of an impact China, India et al have.

You are absolutely wrong about this. The only thing that will possibly stop the growth of AGW is the development of new technology to combat it-- mostly new energy sources, but all sorts of sustainable tech-- and that technology needs to be grown ahead of the market.

That is what the US should be leading the world on, and that is what we are currently falling behind China and India on. And I have no confidence in those societies to actually achieve this task well, given the corruption in India and the lack of academic freedom in China.

412 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:10:11pm

re: #398 freetoken

Ok, so you brought up SS.

But... BUT... I've been told over and over that SS has been operating in the black all these years, and thus it couldn't have contributed to the actually total debt (enumerated, issued via bonds etc.) outstanding.

File that under the heading of "Lies Politicians Tell". They really don't want to face the issue, since politically it's a massive loser.

413 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:10:12pm

re: #396 BryanS

Raise retirement age, raise medicare age, means test elegibility for benefits, and I'm open to any other ideas. The costs will keep going up--raising taxes will not solve the whole problem alone.

Lowering the medicare age and thereby reducing the costs suffered to the wider economy by the bloated private insurance industry which would freeing up money for consumers to pump back into the economy would be better - but to each their own.

414 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:10:21pm

Rent is too damn high.

415 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:10:28pm

I love an argument that comes from the place of "the president is a wizard who can cast budget spells, why didn't he magically undo all the damage, he's omnipotent!"

416 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:10:44pm

re: #395 publicityStunted

If someone is in a higher tax bracket, is all of their income taxed at that bracket? Yes or No? (think very, very carefully before you answer...)

No...of course not. We all know that. But those who do have high incomes also have disposable income to invest/speculate on new businesses or expansion of current ones. Right now, I can say without hesitation that money for financing business growth is definitely not coming from banks who still need to reign in balance sheets.

417 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:10:45pm

re: #363 Aceofwhat?

i still like "the 2000's". and then in 2100, we can call it 1100010011010101/

that's a mouthful...thankfully we'll all be dead by then, and won't have to deal with such a horrific problem.

418 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:11:06pm

re: #412 Dark_Falcon

File that under the heading of "Lies Politicians Tell". They really don't want to face the issue, since politically it's a massive loser.

SS isn't part of the debt. It has contributed nothing to our debt, at any point.

419 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:11:27pm

re: #406 calochortus

Interesting-I didn't get any meaningful results on 'Khakist" from Google. Maybe this is a chance to learn even more...

Same people, different spelling (probably through the French). The only things I find are in .pdf, can't copy to here. I t was Simon Mpedi's people and probably others, if that's what you found. I've got "The Religions of the Oppressed" around here somewhere.

420 brookly red  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:12:33pm

re: #418 Obdicut

SS isn't part of the debt. It has contributed nothing to our debt, at any point.

that is true, if we add in the SS obligations then we are already bankrupt .

421 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:13:04pm

re: #402 palomino

The deficit he inherited - of 1.4trillion to 1.2trillion is a 200bn reduction.

Wider problems with spending and the GOP fixation on curbing revenue streams are causes of a fresh expansion.

422 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:13:18pm

re: #416 BryanS

No...of course not. We all know that.

Actually, we found out awhile ago that some people didn't actually know that.

But those who do have high incomes also have disposable income to invest/speculate on new businesses or expansion of current ones.

This is not true. People with high wealth have the capital for investment. That's not the same as people with high incomes, by any means.

Furthermore, demand is as important as supply; without a large pool of disposable income at the moderate and low income levels, it's not possible to start successful new businesses. If everyone's income is locked into, say, oil, housing, food, health care, those are the only industries that can really be very profitable.

That

423 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:13:58pm

re: #398 freetoken

Ok, so you brought up SS.

But... BUT... I've been told over and over that SS has been operating in the black all these years, and thus it couldn't have contributed to the actually total debt (enumerated, issued via bonds etc.) outstanding.

I thought I read starting this year, it went negative, though it is thought to be a temporary condition due to fewer payrol tax contributions from high unemployment. Otherwise, the deficit in the program is coming soon.

There is no lock box, to coin an Al Gore-ism. SS is paid out of current operating funds, and the surplus has been used as a gimmick to hide deficits for years by all parties in power.

424 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:14:09pm

re: #420 brookly red

that is true, if we add in the SS obligations then we are already bankrupt .

No, SS is funded by the social security tax. At the current moment, the SS fund is in the black. It will go into the red in the future, for a period of time, and then go back into the black. So your statement is wrong.

425 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:14:13pm

re: #379 Talking Point Detective

I don't think the term was completely empty for Bush. It was completely empty for Rove, however:

From the same source:

I'm not inclined to give Bush the pass that some of the folks here seem to be inclined to do. I suspect it's because some of them weren't concerned about what Bush was doing when he was doing it. For others, what we have today was the logical extension of what was happening back then.

I think Kuo left the administration in disgust pretty quickly when it became clear that his organization was going to get a budget of only 1% of what they wanted.

The GOP was a pretty conservative party in 2000. But it's lurched far to the right over the last 3 years. Purely anecdotal, but I know plenty of people--from all walks of life--who voted for Bush at least once but now view the GOP as poison.

426 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:14:13pm

re: #413 wozzablog

Lowering the medicare age and thereby reducing the costs suffered to the wider economy by the bloated private insurance industry which would freeing up money for consumers to pump back into the economy would be better - but to each their own.

You can fix the problem, or ignore the problem.

If our health care costs are higher than other countries and yet our quality of car is less, less widespread? That's our problem.

The problem isn't "We spend too much". the problem is "our system is badly broken."

and just cutting shit out and raising retirement ages, and cutting prescription beneifts so more senior citizens have to choose between rent and meds, is not fixing the problem, it's ignoring it. Because of course, many many politicians are invested in the problem (private insurance) getting bigger, and also worse. :)

427 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:15:20pm

re: #380 Obdicut

He's had his bad luck, too. I'm sure he'd trade every aspect of his good looks for his son back again.

If only we could make such trades. He seems like a good guy, but the Scientology thing creeps me out.

428 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:15:47pm

re: #418 Obdicut

SS isn't part of the debt. It has contributed nothing to our debt, at any point.

It's still something that has to be dealt with.

429 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:15:55pm

re: #355 Aceofwhat?

in all seriousness, the short-term wackos are concerning. they'll die eventually, but it would be better to not have to wait that long to rid ourselves of teh crazy.

(how's that for an olive branch...)

As an olive branch, not so bad. I wish I could say the same about it as an argument.

/

430 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:16:10pm

re: #399 wozzablog

Ahem.

Reuters - who know this shit - are saying that.

take it up with them - you wanted a link you got a link.

08/09 was the last year of the Bush Budget (Obama was sworn in on 20th Jan 2009) - how much chance did his spending have to affect the last BUSH budget deficit given that spending decisions are made a year in advance?.

Well, perhaps the $1 trillion in new spending on top of the old budget, passed by the Dems and Obama AFTER he was sworn in, had something to do with the $1.4 trillion debt? I'm not saying it was all his fault, but it's silly to claim he had nothing to do with it when he sheparded $1trillion in additional spending before the end of "Bush's" last fiscal year.

431 compound idaho  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:16:20pm

re: #407 WindUpBird

slammm

On February 17, 2009, President Barack Obama signed the Recovery Act into Law. He owns much of 2009 too.

432 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:16:25pm

re: #427 palomino

Celebrities like Cruise and Travolta etc. are the victims, I feel. I don't mean to patronize, but I think Scientology is very good at finding and exploiting vulnerability, and celebrities have a big, big vulnerability.

433 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:16:26pm

re: #416 BryanS

No...of course not. We all know that. But those who do have high incomes also have disposable income to invest/speculate on new businesses or expansion of current ones. Right now, I can say without hesitation that money for financing business growth is definitely not coming from banks who still need to reign in balance sheets.

Hey, don't you get tax breaks for investment? I mean, i'm investing in my business....I don't know if you have an accountant, but mine told me that some stuff is deductible! COOL, HUH?!?!?!?!?!?!?! :D :D

I'd love for there to be more incentives on investment, and them slam the shit out of people who hoard or buy luxury items.

But you know, actually making it into a law, scares the shit out of Republicans so here we are, whee hoarding

434 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:16:49pm

re: #428 Dark_Falcon

It's still something that has to be dealt with.

Sure. And we have a lot of various ways we could deal with it. Raising the cap on contributions would be simplest.

435 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:16:54pm

re: #428 Dark_Falcon

It's still something that has to be dealt with.

yeah, raise the income cut off, there! dealt with

Took me five seconds to deal with that

436 calochortus  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:17:38pm

re: #419 Decatur Deb

Same people, different spelling (probably through the French). The only things I find are in .pdf, can't copy to here. I t was Simon Mpedi's people and probably others, if that's what you found. I've got "The Religions of the Oppressed" around here somewhere.

Got it. You are absolutely correct-when I Googled Khakist, I got nothing, Kakist got me Kakistocracy which seemed to fit the context. I'm just a little anal retentive about the origin of "Khaki" because I've heard so many stupid stories about the origin of the word...

437 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:17:39pm

re: #406 calochortus

Interesting-I didn't get any meaningful results on 'Khakist" from Google. Maybe this is a chance to learn even more...

Here ya go--Simon Mpadi is the string to pull:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

438 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:17:42pm

re: #414 brookly red

Rent is too damn high.

Baahhhhh...though it would be a bit of comic relief if that guy got the nomination from a major party :)

439 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:17:52pm

re: #434 Obdicut

Sure. And we have a lot of various ways we could deal with it. Raising the cap on contributions would be simplest.

ding!

BUT OH GOD A GUY WHO MAKES SIX FIGURES WON'T INVEST NOW :(

440 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:18:24pm

re: #418 Obdicut

SS isn't part of the debt. It has contributed nothing to our debt, at any point.

to date....

441 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:18:42pm

re: #425 palomino

I think Kuo left the administration in disgust pretty quickly when it became clear that his organization was going to get a budget of only 1% of what they wanted.

The GOP was a pretty conservative party in 2000. But it's lurched far to the right over the last 3 years. Purely anecdotal, but I know plenty of people--from all walks of life--who voted for Bush at least once but now view the GOP as poison.

Not to say that such people don't exist, I think that statistically we can see that they are in the minority. The GOP has not shrunk in size over the past 3 years.

And again, there were plenty o' folks who fully expected what we are seeing now as the logical extension of the craziness under Bush. I don't question that there are considerably more extremists in office now than there were four, six, eight years ago. No question. But Bush greased the skids.

442 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:18:56pm

you know what would be awesome? A few less castles and yachts and conspicuous hypermegamansions, and a lot more money being spent on cool projects and businesses


that would be awesome!

ah well, go America, right down the shitter

443 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:19:51pm

re: #408 freetoken

Illustrative, but I think the universe really doesn't work the way that graph implies.

I don't think the universe works the way that any graph implies. By its very nature, a graph is reductive on multiple levels.

Still, the idea that a Republican president and Congress could have instantly given us FAR lower deficits in the 2010's is simply not supported by economic data. There's too much built-in spending, and too much revenue lost from the Great Recession.

444 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:20:12pm

re: #430 BryanS

Well, perhaps the $1 trillion in new spending on top of the old budget, passed by the Dems and Obama AFTER he was sworn in, had something to do with the $1.4 trillion debt? I'm not saying it was all his fault, but it's silly to claim he had nothing to do with it when he sheparded $1trillion in additional spending before the end of "Bush's" last fiscal year.



see...........


The 2009 Budget Deficit
How did we get here?
[Link: www.epi.org...]
By John Irons, Kathryn Edwards, and Anna Turner


Contrary to popular assumption, stimulus spending under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act has been a very small factor in the expansion of the federal budget deficit in 2009. Many policies that pre-date the Obama Administration, including Bush-era spending on the wars in Iran and Afghanistan, are key factors in the growing deficit.

NEXT!

445 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:21:39pm

re: #409 Talking Point Detective

The US's impact on AGW is global in scale, both in terms of the amount of our carbon emissions (U.S. at 20% of the total, China at 22%, India at 5%) and in terms of our influence on climate change legislation. Not having China on board is a huge impediment, but the only way it could ever possibly happen is if the U.S. is on board first.

Glad to see that we're more efficient than China. Their economy hasn't even surpassed us in total GDP...yet. But they already pollute more than we do.

446 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:21:56pm

re: #435 WindUpBird

yeah, raise the income cut off, there! dealt with

Took me five seconds to deal with that

I'd rather use means-testing first. Maybe raise (not remove) the cap, or peg it to inflation.

447 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:23:05pm

re: #422 Obdicut

Actually, we found out awhile ago that some people didn't actually know that.

This is not true. People with high wealth have the capital for investment. That's not the same as people with high incomes, by any means.

Furthermore, demand is as important as supply; without a large pool of disposable income at the moderate and low income levels, it's not possible to start successful new businesses. If everyone's income is locked into, say, oil, housing, food, health care, those are the only industries that can really be very profitable.

That


People with high incomes are also that. How many times does a well compensated exec go off and fund a new venture? All the time. If only the already wealthy can generate wealth, then there is no upward mobility. Not all highly compensated employees came from wealth--many of them got that way from their compensation package, including stock based compensation (which is also a form of income and taxed as such already).

448 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:23:26pm

re: #441 Talking Point Detective

Not to say that such people don't exist, I think that statistically we can see that they are in the minority. The GOP has not shrunk in size over the past 3 years.

And again, there were plenty o' folks who fully expected what we are seeing now as the logical extension of the craziness under Bush. I don't question that there are considerably more extremists in office now than there were four, six, eight years ago. No question. But Bush greased the skids.

I saw it coming in the sense that the Schaivo thing really opened my eyes to the possibility of that sort of crazy, uneducated, superstitious socially reactionary energy could truly dominate American politics and leadership

And then the american so-cons pushing for those ugandan anti-gay laws let me know that some of these really would have me hang if they thought they could push it through congress. And these aren't Fred Phelpses. These guys aren't trolls, they have real political shove.

I went from mocking them to respecting the fact that this country could truly turn into a horrible place under them, and I am only as optimistic as I am because Portland will still be Portland.

449 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:23:30pm

re: #442 WindUpBird

you know what would be awesome? A few less castles and yachts and conspicuous hypermegamansions, and a lot more money being spent on cool projects and businesses

that would be awesome!

ah well, go America, right down the shitter

Those buying those yachts own the money, they should be able to use it as they wish. Your words are a call for redistribution, and I am an implacable foe of that.

450 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:23:45pm

re: #444 wozzablog

hahahah you are really good at this :D :D

451 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:24:04pm

re: #449 Dark_Falcon

Those buying those yachts own the money, they should be able to use it as they wish. Your words are a call for redistribution, and I am an implacable foe of that.

I am for a culture that encourages investment. :)

452 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:24:55pm

re: #424 Obdicut

No, SS is funded by the social security tax. At the current moment, the SS fund is in the black. It will go into the red in the future, for a period of time, and then go back into the black. So your statement is wrong.

I think he was thinking about standard accounting practices used in businesses which book future expenses at present day value. If SS had to balance its books in the way corporations are required by law to do, it would be in the red because the current and future revenue streams do not come close to covering future obligations.

453 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:25:18pm

re: #445 palomino

Glad to see that we're more efficient than China. Their economy hasn't even surpassed us in total GDP...yet. But they already pollute more than we do.

True. But I would guess that 5 or 10 years out, our positions might be shifted.

Put together, that we "contribute" 42% of the emissions. Pretty astounding when you think about it.

454 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:25:35pm

re: #432 Obdicut

Celebrities like Cruise and Travolta etc. are the victims, I feel. I don't mean to patronize, but I think Scientology is very good at finding and exploiting vulnerability, and celebrities have a big, big vulnerability.

My dental hygienist is a Scientologist. Sometimes she really sounds brainwashed, repeating catch phrases she doesn't even really understand.

455 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:26:47pm

re: #447 BryanS

People with high incomes are also that.

They may or may not be.

How many times does a well compensated exec go off and fund a new venture?

I don't know. Do you have some data on this?

If only the already wealthy can generate wealth, then there is no upward mobility.

Well, no. There's still the upward mobility of getting paid more, even if you don't become hyperwealthy. My dad is middle class, his father was working class, because my dad has a higher salary, not because he started a business.

And anyway, our social mobility has been slowing; most of Europe is better than us now.

Not all highly compensated employees came from wealth--many of them got that way from their compensation package, including stock based compensation (which is also a form of income and taxed as such already).

I'm not certain why we're now talking about highly compensated employees coming from wealth, since what I said was that those with wealth, rather than those with high incomes, are the ones who invest in companies. I made no claims about highly compensated employees at all.

456 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:27:10pm

re: #432 Obdicut

Celebrities like Cruise and Travolta etc. are the victims, I feel. I don't mean to patronize, but I think Scientology is very good at finding and exploiting vulnerability, and celebrities have a big, big vulnerability.

See: Isaac Hayes.

Scientology used him good...mainly because of the Co$ and how Trey Parker and Matt Stone were lampooning Cruise (and, by extension, Co$), he felt he had to leave the show, despite Chef being one of the most popular recurring characters.

Now, the Co$ has a center here in Nashville...and they're a customer of the company I work for. I've dealt with them a few times and the people I've talked to seem really nice, but, in the back of my mind, I can't help but feel sorry for the poor people who get flim-flimmed into joining up with them.

/FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...

457 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:27:21pm

re: #449 Dark_Falcon

And also, redistribution is EVERYWHERE. Every time my autistic guy who I worked with every day, every time he got his rent paid, that's redistribution of wealth. Hell, conservative states get constant redistribution of wealth!

So yeha, if you're an implacable foe of keeping a roof over peoples' heads who can't defend themselves, well, baby, i'm happy to be the enemy, and I'll be the enemy until I'm dead. Because I'd rather help people than ideology.

Just look at the federal dollars spent on red states versus what they put out. if the federal government stopped "redistributing wealth" to red states, the Republican party would be dust. it would evaporate, because the states where it is strongest would fail and collapse.

Without redistribution of wealth, you have no America. You have Somalia. You have madness.

458 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:27:45pm

re: #449 Dark_Falcon

Those buying those yachts own the money, they should be able to use it as they wish. Your words are a call for redistribution, and I am an implacable foe of that.

Are you simply against all taxation, then? All taxation is a form of redistribution. It takes wealth from some people and redistributes it in a manner best deemed to suit the public.

459 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:27:47pm

re: #454 palomino

My dental hygienist is a Scientologist. Sometimes she really sounds brainwashed, repeating catch phrases she doesn't even really understand.

a dianetic demon is a parasitic circuit

460 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:27:58pm

re: #458 Obdicut

Are you simply against all taxation, then? All taxation is a form of redistribution. It takes wealth from some people and redistributes it in a manner best deemed to suit the public.


461 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:28:19pm

re: #433 WindUpBird

Hey, don't you get tax breaks for investment? I mean, i'm investing in my business...I don't know if you have an accountant, but mine told me that some stuff is deductible! COOL, HUH?!?!?!?!?!?!?! :D :D

I'd love for there to be more incentives on investment, and them slam the shit out of people who hoard or buy luxury items.

But you know, actually making it into a law, scares the shit out of Republicans so here we are, whee hoarding

No, not entirely. I think we've had this debate before. Capital equipment is only deductible up to $150k. That might work for some businesses, but any capital intensive business is only allowed to recognize a portion of their cap ex each year through depreciation. Spend $500k now on 10 year property, only get to recognize $50k each year for your tax return over the next of each subsequent year.

462 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:28:25pm

re: #451 WindUpBird

I am for a culture that encourages investment. :)

I'm all for investment, so long as it is voluntary.

463 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:28:51pm

re: #460 WindUpBird

bolded for truth

"redistribution of wealth", the GOP catchphrase versus what the word actually means


Catchphrases! Obfuscation! Misdirection!

464 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:29:11pm

re: #450 WindUpBird

hahahah you are really good at this :D :D

Now, now young Padawan. It's not a competition.

465 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:29:26pm

re: #456 talon_262

Err, meant "flim-flammed"

466 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:29:33pm

re: #441 Talking Point Detective

Not to say that such people don't exist, I think that statistically we can see that they are in the minority. The GOP has not shrunk in size over the past 3 years.

And again, there were plenty o' folks who fully expected what we are seeing now as the logical extension of the craziness under Bush. I don't question that there are considerably more extremists in office now than there were four, six, eight years ago. No question. But Bush greased the skids.

The GOP has shrunk in some parts of the country, namely NY, New England and the West Coast. But it's effectively used white Christian cultural resentment in the South and Midwest to renew its strength. Teabaggers who claim their movement isn't related to social issues are full of it.

467 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:30:01pm

re: #461 BryanS

No, not entirely. I think we've had this debate before. Capital equipment is only deductible up to $150k. That might work for some businesses, but any capital intensive business is only allowed to recognize a portion of their cap ex each year through depreciation. Spend $500k now on 10 year property, only get to recognize $50k each year for your tax return over the next of each subsequent year.

Which seems about right to me!

OBVIOUSLY IT'S NOT "ENTIRELY", DUDE. Sheesh. :P

468 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:30:18pm

re: #464 wozzablog

Now, now young Padawan. It's not a competition.

You just know this stuff way better than I do *_*

469 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:31:11pm

re: #466 palomino

It's also because of the state system; if we worked by an actual population system, the dominionists would have far less power, since many of the more conservative Christian states would have fewer senators and delegates.

470 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:31:31pm

re: #449 Dark_Falcon

Those buying those yachts own the money, they should be able to use it as they wish. Your words are a call for redistribution, and I am an implacable foe of that.

What about all the redistribution we already have? Should we get rid of all of it?

471 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:32:26pm

re: #462 Dark_Falcon

I'm all for investment, so long as it is voluntary.

Wow, hello, Straw Man! Come in and have tea with me!

it's still voluntary, where did I say I wanted to force investment? I said I wanted to see fewer people buying crap and more people making our country better. I WANT that. So how in the blazes of feathered tarnation did you get that I wanted investment to be involuntary?

I just want investment to be rewarded more than collecting shit and hoarding it.

472 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:32:56pm

re: #452 BryanS

I think he was thinking about standard accounting practices used in businesses which book future expenses at present day value. If SS had to balance its books in the way corporations are required by law to do, it would be in the red because the current and future revenue streams do not come close to covering future obligations.

Yes, if only the federal govt had the rigorous, honest accounting practices of our banks, mortgage brokers and energy companies.

473 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:33:03pm

re: #470 palomino

What about all the redistribution we already have? Should we get rid of all of it?

close what few mental respite facilities we have left!

Sorry schizophrenic guy! That's redistrubution

474 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:33:33pm

re: #472 palomino

Yes, if only the federal govt had the rigorous, honest accounting practices of our banks, mortgage brokers and energy companies.

Enron! American business at its finest!

475 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:34:18pm

re: #453 Talking Point Detective

True. But I would guess that 5 or 10 years out, our positions might be shifted.

Put together, that we "contribute" 42% of the emissions. Pretty astounding when you think about it.

I think it's more astounding for us. China has 22% of the world's emissions, but also about 22% of its people.

476 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:34:43pm

re: #471 WindUpBird

Wow, hello, Straw Man! Come in and have tea with me!

it's still voluntary, where did I say I wanted to force investment? I said I wanted to see fewer people buying crap and more people making our country better. I WANT that. So how in the blazes of feathered tarnation did you get that I wanted investment to be involuntary?

I just want investment to be rewarded more than collecting shit and hoarding it.

Sorry, I think I got a bit trigger-happy.

477 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:34:57pm

re: #466 palomino

The GOP has shrunk in some parts of the country, namely NY, New England and the West Coast. But it's effectively used white Christian cultural resentment in the South and Midwest to renew its strength. Teabaggers who claim their movement isn't related to social issues are full of it.

Overall, GOP affiliation has certainly grown over the past 3 years - pretty much in track with the growth in extremism.

[Link: www.rasmussenreports.com...]

478 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:35:47pm

re: #472 palomino

Yes, if only the federal govt had the rigorous, honest accounting practices of our banks, mortgage brokers and energy companies.

You can't (cough....enron) be disparaging the quality of private (cough Arthur Anderson) institutions (cough... Bear Sterns)......... can you?.

can you really be doing that?

be gone from my vision.

479 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:36:20pm

re: #459 WindUpBird

a dianetic demon is a parasitic circuit

I tried reading Dianetics. I made it threw about 3 pages, then put it down in disgust. Maybe that makes me close minded, but it seemed like the work of a total charlatan. Like anything written by Joel Osteen.

480 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:37:23pm

I hear a lot about how tight businesses are run!


I hear a lot about their tight accounting practices.

And I thought I'd hear less of that while we are in the WAKE OF BANKING CORRUPTION MORTGAGE CREDIT CRISIS H.E.L.STORM

HEY WOUDJA LOOKIT THAT, MERRILL LYNCH COLLAPSES

OH WHOOPS HAYO! THERE GOES WAMU, DOWN LIKE FRAZIER

Sometimes, I can just sit back and the comedy just flows to me like a river

481 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:37:23pm

re: #455 Obdicut

They may or may not be.

I don't know. Do you have some data on this?

Well, no. There's still the upward mobility of getting paid more, even if you don't become hyperwealthy. My dad is middle class, his father was working class, because my dad has a higher salary, not because he started a business.

And anyway, our social mobility has been slowing; most of Europe is better than us now.

I'm not certain why we're now talking about highly compensated employees coming from wealth, since what I said was that those with wealth, rather than those with high incomes, are the ones who invest in companies. I made no claims about highly compensated employees at all.

I made the claim that highly compensated employees also start companies--and they do. I don't think we should go back to the days of 90% marginal rates for the highest income brackets. It probably needs to go higher than it is now, but there is a real effect on economic growth when you cut off an employee's ability to generate income. Those with the highest income tax rates tend to be employees rather than the owners of a business they often run.

Most business owners, and the wealthiest of the wealthy see appreciation in wealth through the increase in value of the company they own. They pay capital gains taxes, not income taxes. It's not terribly unusual to see some CEO/owner to pay themselves $1 (not out of any sense of altruism), since they will pay less on the dividends and capital gains.

482 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:38:04pm

re: #479 palomino

I tried reading Dianetics. I made it threw about 3 pages, then put it down in disgust. Maybe that makes me close minded, but it seemed like the work of a total charlatan. Like anything written by Joel Osteen.

I read some of it, but we were goofing on it with a highlighter and writing 80's rap songs using the terms


And yeah, it otally is a charlatan, no question

483 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:39:51pm

re: #467 WindUpBird

Which seems about right to me!

OBVIOUSLY IT'S NOT "ENTIRELY", DUDE. Sheesh. :P

Can't you imaging why someone would need to invest more than the current tax code allows to deduct 100% in one year? Small businesses need to do that out of current income, because there is no bank money for them to borrow. Raise taxes, and there is less money for investment except for those sitting on a pile of cash.

484 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:40:57pm

re: #472 palomino

Yes, if only the federal govt had the rigorous, honest accounting practices of our banks, mortgage brokers and energy companies.

Funny, but in a way it's sad because the government's accounting standards are worse!

485 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:41:15pm

re: #481 BryanS

I made the claim that highly compensated employees also start companies--and they do.

They do when that high compensation is retained in the form of wealth. If they spent it all already, then no, they don't. That's my point. And also, I would really like data, if you have any, on how many companies are started by the highly-compensated vs. those with wealth, or who acquire wealth through a loan.

It probably needs to go higher than it is now, but there is a real effect on economic growth when you cut off an employee's ability to generate income.

What do you mean by 'cut off'?

Those with the highest income tax rates tend to be employees rather than the owners of a business they often run.

Well, those with the highest capital gains tax rates tend to be the owners. The fact that we separate that out is part of what confuses this discussion.

Most business owners, and the wealthiest of the wealthy see appreciation in wealth through the increase in value of the company they own.

Yes, well, I see you get the income tax/capital gains tax distinction. I'm not sure why you think it's relevant, though.

My point is that having a lot of income at the lower levels is important for the formation of new companies, since demand has to be present. Without income in the low and middle class, there is no demand, and it doesn't matter how much capital is available at the upper levels.

486 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:42:15pm

re: #469 Obdicut

It's also because of the state system; if we worked by an actual population system, the dominionists would have far less power, since many of the more conservative Christian states would have fewer senators and delegates.

Yeah, one thing that keeps the GOP afloat is their overrepresentation numerically in the House and Senate. House's imbalance is due to states like WY and AK, and of course gerrymandering. Senate's imbalance is due to the fact that there are more small red states (SD, ND, ID, AK, WY, UT, etc) than small blue states.

Only on the electoral map do things even out, because the Dakotas (with fewer than 2 million total) don't get twice as many electoral votes as California. They do, however, have twice as many Senators as Cali. That system seems like a 19th century rural anachronism in a modern high tech society.

487 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:45:51pm

re: #477 Talking Point Detective

Overall, GOP affiliation has certainly grown over the past 3 years - pretty much in track with the growth in extremism.

[Link: www.rasmussenreports.com...]

I'd be willing to bet that little of that growth was in Cali or NY. The GOP has busted out the xenophobic whooping stick; it plays best in the heartland unfortunately.

488 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:45:55pm

re: #483 BryanS

Can't you imaging why someone would need to invest more than the current tax code allows to deduct 100% in one year? Small businesses need to do that out of current income, because there is no bank money for them to borrow. Raise taxes, and there is less money for investment except for those sitting on a pile of cash.


obama-signs-bill-giving-tax-cuts-loan-help-to-small-businesses
2010
[Link: www.businessweek.com...]

Obama seeks tax boost for small business
2011
[Link: www.ft.com...]

489 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:46:59pm

re: #486 palomino

Yeah, one thing that keeps the GOP afloat is their overrepresentation numerically in the House and Senate. House's imbalance is due to states like WY and AK, and of course gerrymandering. Senate's imbalance is due to the fact that there are more small red states (SD, ND, ID, AK, WY, UT, etc) than small blue states.

Only on the electoral map do things even out, because the Dakotas (with fewer than 2 million total) don't get twice as many electoral votes as California. They do, however, have twice as many Senators as Cali. That system seems like a 19th century rural anachronism in a modern high tech society.

Interesting point. I've never thought about that.

490 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:47:50pm

re: #487 palomino

I'd be willing to bet that little of that growth was in Cali or NY. The GOP has busted out the xenophobic whooping stick; it plays best in the heartland unfortunately.

Which coupled with your next quote, becomes even more interesting.

491 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:48:46pm

re: #490 Talking Point Detective

In some ways, it may speak to the strong possibility that the Dems will lose the Senate but win the White House.

492 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:48:48pm

re: #483 BryanS

Can't you imaging why someone would need to invest more than the current tax code allows to deduct 100% in one year? Small businesses need to do that out of current income, because there is no bank money for them to borrow. Raise taxes, and there is less money for investment except for those sitting on a pile of cash.

also see


The $250,000 Small Business Tax Question
New data released by the bipartisan Tax Policy Center show that most small business owners won't be taxed at higher rates under Obama's proposed budget


[Link: www.businessweek.com...]

493 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:48:57pm

re: #489 Talking Point Detective

Interesting point. I've never thought about that.


As a Dem (most of the time), I wish it weren't so. But the small rural states tend to be overwhelmingly red. For every Vermont, there are 2-3 Idahos.

494 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:50:02pm

re: #485 Obdicut

They do when that high compensation is retained in the form of wealth. If they spent it all already, then no, they don't. That's my point. And also, I would really like data, if you have any, on how many companies are started by the highly-compensated vs. those with wealth, or who acquire wealth through a loan.

What do you mean by 'cut off'?

Well, those with the highest capital gains tax rates tend to be the owners. The fact that we separate that out is part of what confuses this discussion.

Yes, well, I see you get the income tax/capital gains tax distinction. I'm not sure why you think it's relevant, though.

My point is that having a lot of income at the lower levels is important for the formation of new companies, since demand has to be present. Without income in the low and middle class, there is no demand, and it doesn't matter how much capital is available at the upper levels.

I'd like to have statistics, but I do not have them. Founders of some of the biggest companies came from CEOs who left their previous endeavor to fund or rescue a startup. Ebay, Charter cable, and a number of other companies I'm more familiar with in telecom you'd never hear of.


My point about income taxes is that the really wealthy don't pay them. Raising income taxes on the wealthy will just box in those striving to bounce up another income level.

495 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 7:58:11pm

re: #488 wozzablog

obama-signs-bill-giving-tax-cuts-loan-help-to-smal l-businesses
2010
[Link: www.businessweek.com...]

Obama seeks tax boost for small business
2011
[Link: www.ft.com...]

Your first link is the bonus depreciation. It continues-the ability to expense on your tax return 100% of the first --hey, they made it $500k this year! I'll have to look more into that. And to correct my earlier posts--it was $250k this past couple years.

That is good policy for the very simple reason that it helps small businesses who are successful and generating cash flow to invest this year's earnings into new equipment that can help them expand.

496 BryanS  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 8:01:21pm

re: #492 wozzablog

also see


[Link: www.businessweek.com...]

Same tax incentive, but yeah. This should be permanent. This "bonus depreciation" was enacted a few years ago when the economy went into the crapper. Since small businesses generate most job growth, it makes sense to keep this in place permanently--previously, that bonus depreciation was a paltry $25k limit and reverts to that under current law. They keep extending it, but I think it should be permanent.

497 compound idaho  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 8:06:33pm

re: #493 palomino

As a Dem (most of the time), I wish it weren't so. But the small rural states tend to be overwhelmingly red. For every Vermont, there are 2-3 Idahos.


Idaho was a blue state for a long time. '71-'95 all Democrat Governors. That ended as all the timber and mining jobs left the country. Rightly or not, that is largely blamed on Democrat policies. Sure serving coffee to tourists in Sun Valley is cool, but it is now way to support a family.

498 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 8:06:42pm

re: #495 BryanS

Your first link is the bonus depreciation. It continues-the ability to expense on your tax return 100% of the first --hey, they made it $500k this year! I'll have to look more into that. And to correct my earlier posts--it was $250k this past couple years.

That is good policy for the very simple reason that it helps small businesses who are successful and generating cash flow to invest this year's earnings into new equipment that can help them expand.

My main point is that the Government are not planning to raise taxes on small business - government is (within the climate) trying to help small business as much as possible.

I don't think small business is in much danger (from this admin, although the GOP may feel differently) of lessened revenues caused by Govt - and firms with under 6 employees (true small business/startup) (if memory serves) are xempt from HCR, but that i would have to check.

499 palomino  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 8:23:27pm

re: #497 compound idaho

Idaho was a blue state for a long time. '71-'95 all Democrat Governors. That ended as all the timber and mining jobs left the country. Rightly or not, that is largely blamed on Democrat policies. Sure serving coffee to tourists in Sun Valley is cool, but it is now way to support a family.

Interesting. But isn't there also a strong socially conservative gop base in ID?

Montana, right next door, and demographically similar, still elects a lot of Dems (and was even close in 2008's prez election). Idaho went for McCain by 30 points, while MT went for him by only about 5.

500 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:02:30pm

re: #486 palomino

Yeah, one thing that keeps the GOP afloat is their overrepresentation numerically in the House and Senate. House's imbalance is due to states like WY and AK, and of course gerrymandering. Senate's imbalance is due to the fact that there are more small red states (SD, ND, ID, AK, WY, UT, etc) than small blue states.

Only on the electoral map do things even out, because the Dakotas (with fewer than 2 million total) don't get twice as many electoral votes as California. They do, however, have twice as many Senators as Cali. That system seems like a 19th century rural anachronism in a modern high tech society.


wheee, go america

501 Querent  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:56:55pm

re: #243 Gus 802

No wait! Hang on. I'm about to have some fruit.

It's a Little Debbie lemon pie.

The source of all goodness and light! (No,wait, that's Hostess Lemon Pie)

502 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:08:32pm

re: #174 JasonA

Has anyone else played the Bulletstorm demo? I think I may be in love...

that's the guys who made painkiller, good team

503 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Feb 22, 2011 3:49:30am

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Sort of on topic...

"Extremist cleric to lead White House protest calling for Muslims to 'rise up and establish Islamic state in America' "

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Anjem Choudary - regarded as a clown by everyone except the Daily Mail and the EDL - who of course regard him as the greatest threat to civilisation the world has ever known.

504 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Feb 22, 2011 6:26:35am

So I was checking out the "stalker' blog and read that their fearless leader posted this:

Are you a creationist, Daedalus?

I’m not a creationist and I’m not a Darwinist. I think its possible humans aren’t from this planet. In short, I don’t give a shit how I got here. I’m concerned with the here and now.

and this:

No I always believed in an non Earth origins theory for humanity. It’s possible that Humanity did start here but that humans developed elsewhere and some refugees came 10-20,000 years ago.
All civilizations have legends of people who come from the sky. I don’t think we were create din 6 days nor do I think we come from monkies.
This isn’t an issue I get worked over.

OK - the theory that we "came from monkies [sic]" is too far-fetched.... so he believes we came from another planet?

Too feakin' funny.


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