The Lessons of ‘Climategate’

A textbook case of right wing anti-science propaganda
Science • Views: 34,941

On February 18, the Department of Commerce released the results of yet another independent investigation into the “Climategate” nontroversy, and again (as in the previous four investigations by various agencies) the climate scientists involved were totally cleared of wrongdoing.

The latest redundant investigation was requested by arch climate denier Sen. James Inhofe, who promptly ignored its conclusions and went right back to raving about evil tricksy scientists.

Here’s a good piece by David Roberts at Grist, looking back at this appalling right wing attempt to discredit the science of climate change: What we have and haven’t learned from ‘Climategate’.

It’s a numbingly familiar pattern in media coverage. The conservative movement that’s been attacking climate science for 20 years has a storied history of demonstrable fabrications, distortions, personal attacks, and nothingburger faux-scandals — not only on climate science, but going back to asbestos, ozone, leaded gasoline, tobacco, you name it. They don’t follow the rigorous standards of professional science; they follow no intellectual or ethical standards whatsoever. Yet no matter how long their record of viciousness and farce, every time the skeptic blogosphere coughs up a new “ZOMG!” it’s as though we start from zero again, like no one has a memory longer than five minutes.

Here’s the basic question: At this point, given their respective accomplishments and standards, wouldn’t it make sense to give scientists the strong benefit of the doubt when they are attacked by ideologues with a history of dishonesty and error? Shouldn’t the threshold for what counts as a “scandal” have been nudged a bit higher?

Jump to bottom

449 comments
1 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:41:50pm

That’s a really, really good point. Time and time again, scientists are shown to have been in the right and to have been dishonestly attacked.

Yet nobody ever has to pay any penalty for this dishonesty, nobody has their careers interrupted, harmed, or slowed because of it.

But the scientists do. They have to waste time responding to these inquiries, they face political battles at their universities, etc.

2 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:43:34pm

Science, it works bitches.

3 nines09  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:44:30pm
4 Ming  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:45:15pm

Yes, some people just don’t like climate science. Just like some people didn’t like Einstein’s theory of relativity. Einstein never got the Nobel prize for his theory of relativity; it was too controversial at the time. And some people don’t like vaccines. This is the province of psychology, not science. Let’s not get to the point where Iran’s kids learn more science than American kids.

5 freetoken  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:46:51pm

Thing is, Inhofe and the rest of his followers were never really interested in the actual science to begin with - all they wanted to do is have yet another fishing expedition.

6 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:50:06pm

In reading up on the Curry Dustup, Dr Benjamin Santer thoroughly debunks Steven McIntyre on his petty FOIA requests, and then some.

What it appears to me is guys like Santer, Dr Richard Alley, and Dr John Abraham, who would rather do science and not PR, need to go on PR campaigns against Inhofe, McIntyre, and Monckton.

They’re demeanor and grounding in actual science are the antidote to the idiocy and exploitation going on with the deniers.

Guys, I know you don’t want to do this crap. You want to do science. But… we need you. Everybody on the planet needs you. I hate to put it on you…. but I’m putting it on you.

7 iossarian  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:50:21pm

re: #5 freetoken

Thing is, Inhofe and the rest of his followers were never really interested in the actual science to begin with - all they wanted to do is have yet another fishing expedition.

Exactly. And this is what will keep happening in the immediate future:

The tobacco thing only got sorted out because, in the end, everyone knew someone who smoked and died of lung cancer.

Once the temperature goes up, people will realize that global warming is real, and we’ll be able to do something about it.

(I’m sorry if this sounds overly pessimistic, and obviously I understand the need to take action now on global warming.)

8 mr.fusion  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:51:52pm

The report is inconsequential. They’ll still say “climate-gate” discredits all evidence pointing towards global warning.

It’s not just amazing that they ignore being discredited, it’s amazing that it works. I guess it’s the fault of the media more than anything….I saw a poll from over the weekend that a quarter of Americans believe Health Care Reform has now been repealed. No question the reason for that is the media coverage given to the judges decision in Florida…….and little to no coverage of all the other judges who have upheld it.

I guess ignorance really is bliss.

9 avanti  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:52:18pm

The fact that Climategate was much ado about nothing won’t move opinions of the deniers. They still talk about measuring stations next to AC units, the mini ice age and other “gates” that were found to be BS, thus Climategate will live on.

10 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:52:43pm

Inhofe is the epitome of evil. History will not be kind to him, nor Monckton, or McIntyre.

11 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:54:14pm

re: #8 mr.fusion

Media - and Dems. They should forcefully denounce Inhofe et al. as frauds. They don’t do that.

12 garhighway  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:54:36pm

re: #10 BigPapa

Inhofe is the epitome of evil. History will not be kind to him, nor Monckton, or McIntyre.

But by the time this is clear, they will be long gone, and a whole bunch of big oil and coal companies will have had many more quarters unencumbered by the true costs of their products. And that is what this is about: Imhofe is their whore, and everyone knows it.

13 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:55:20pm

re: #11 Sergey Romanov

Media - and Dems. They should forcefully denounce Inhofe et al. as frauds. They don’t do that.

“comity”

//

14 eastsider  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:56:34pm

How do you win an argument with people who can’t perceive a world in which they are wrong?

The best question to ask people like this is: “What could I do to convince you that your position is incorrect?” I don’t think the deniers would have a plausible answer.

15 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:57:49pm

re: #5 freetoken

Thing is, Inhofe and the rest of his followers were never really interested in the actual science to begin with - all they wanted to do is have yet another fishing expedition.

Right. Since they don’t get penalized for being wrong (Again and again), they just keep hammering away, wasting time and resources and doing that thing where if people hear the same lie repeated enough times, they start to believe it, regardless of the evidence against it.

16 garhighway  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:57:57pm

Meanwhile, in the real world, lodgepole pines are dying due to climate change and its related effects.

[Link: green.blogs.nytimes.com…]

17 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:58:23pm

re: #13 kirkspencer

“comity”

//

The Rethugs’ successes often boil down to them being the Energizer bunnies of stupid. They go and go and go and they only way to slow them down is to stand athwart idiots yelling “Frauds!”.

18 mr.fusion  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:59:36pm

re: #11 Sergey Romanov

Media - and Dems. They should forcefully denounce Inhofe et al. as frauds. They don’t do that.

Great point…..the dems sure do suck at going for the jugular don’t they?

19 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:00:23pm

re: #18 mr.fusion

Great point…the dems sure do suck at going for the jugular don’t they?

“Civility”, “biparthisanship”, :barf:, weak-kneed wimps.

20 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:02:57pm

re: #17 Sergey Romanov

The Rethugs’ successes often boil down to them being the Energizer bunnies of stupid. They go and go and go and they only way to slow them down is to stand athwart idiots yelling “Frauds!”.

now that is funny!

21 mr.fusion  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:03:50pm

re: #19 Sergey Romanov

“Civility”, “biparthisanship”, :barf:, weak-kneed wimps.

There’s nothing uncivil about pointing out your political opponents are liars….particularly when the facts are on your side

22 iossarian  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:04:06pm

re: #19 Sergey Romanov

If you don’t preserve those things there is nothing worth fighting for anyway.

It’s the paradox of liberalism.

23 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:05:20pm

re: #22 iossarian

Sorry, don’t get it. Liberalism isn’t about civility and bipartisanship in Congress.

24 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:06:37pm

re: #21 mr.fusion

There’s nothing uncivil about pointing out your political opponents are liars…particularly when the facts are on your side

Exactly. It’s not like they should crush the Rs, see the Rs driven before them , and hear the lamentations of their women. Simply pointing out facts will do.

25 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:08:26pm

re: #19 Sergey Romanov

“Civility”, “biparthisanship”, :barf:, weak-kneed wimps.

It’s not just that, though. It’s a culture that has been conditioned on not thinking for itself and not actually researching things to get at the truth. As a result, just throwing up some nonsense numbers or statements with little or no grounding in reality is enough to cloud the waters for many people. Since the positions are “The Earth is warming and we’re about as certain as we can be about it and we’re the cause” and “We don’t know for sure”, that puts the deniers at a huge advantage.

The average person doesn’t seem to be interested in learning why most denier positions are completely bunk with no ground to stand on, all they care is that someone, somewhere, through out some confusion. It’s like how people confuse climate and weather, even if you try to hammer the difference into their heads. Anti-intellectual ‘thinking’ has taken root such that all it takes are some snide remarks from some shill or idiot and suddenly much of the population will dismiss good and well supported science.

And, of course, people seem to like certainties. So when the realm of science goes and says “OK, we’ve learned something new, so we need to refine this theory to fit it”, it makes them uncomfortable and doubtful of the ability of science to really ‘answer questions’.

And I think I’m going to stop myself before I totally go off on a rant.

26 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:08:53pm

re: #24 Sergey Romanov

The main problem is most of the Dems are beholded to large corporate interests, too.

The money involved in politics is killing the process.

27 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:09:45pm

re: #26 Obdicut

The main problem is most of the Dems are beholded to large corporate interests, too.

The money involved in politics is killing the process.

That pretty much nails it.

28 iossarian  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:09:49pm

re: #23 Sergey Romanov

Sorry, don’t get it. Liberalism isn’t about civility and bipartisanship in Congress.

I can’t really stick around and debate this right now, unfortunately.

My best analogy is to compare Republicans/conservatives to 4 year olds. You can’t debate or reason with them, but equally you can’t just descend to their level and start shouting and screaming at them either.

You just have to be incredibly patient, and hope for incremental progress. It sucks, but the problem is that every other approach sucks even more.

On that note, I’m outta here.

29 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:11:50pm

OT, but funny:

“A unionized public employee, a member of the Tea Party, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table there is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across, takes 11 cookies, looks at the Tea Partier, and says, ‘Look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie.’”

(taken from a friend’s FB status)

30 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:12:01pm

re: #25 Simply Sarah

It’s not just that, though. It’s a culture that has been conditioned on not thinking for itself and not actually researching things to get at the truth. As a result, just throwing up some nonsense numbers or statements with little or no grounding in reality is enough to cloud the waters for many people. Since the positions are “The Earth is warming and we’re about as certain as we can be about it and we’re the cause” and “We don’t know for sure”, that puts the deniers at a huge advantage.

The average person doesn’t seem to be interested in learning why most denier positions are completely bunk with no ground to stand on, all they care is that someone, somewhere, through out some confusion. It’s like how people confuse climate and weather, even if you try to hammer the difference into their heads. Anti-intellectual ‘thinking’ has taken root such that all it takes are some snide remarks from some shill or idiot and suddenly much of the population will dismiss good and well supported science.

And, of course, people seem to like certainties. So when the realm of science goes and says “OK, we’ve learned something new, so we need to refine this theory to fit it”, it makes them uncomfortable and doubtful of the ability of science to really ‘answer questions’.

And I think I’m going to stop myself before I totally go off on a rant.

One of the simple things I do and teach others to do is follow the sources. When someone says “such and so says”, go read what such and so actually said. It has ceased to amaze me (but still boggles me) how often that it turns out what they said is different from what is reported.

31 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:12:13pm
it’s as though we start from zero again, like no one has a memory longer than five minutes.

It’s because they don’t.

If people had a memory longer than 5 minutes, Republicans would be unelectable, IMO.

32 martinsmithy  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:12:15pm

The real question isn’t whether the world is heating up, and that humankind is responsible. Any sane objective scientist has figured out that the answer to that question is “yes.”

The real question is: what do we do about it? I suspect that as regards the more radical solutions, “the cure is worse than the disease.”

33 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:13:10pm

re: #28 iossarian

I can’t really stick around and debate this right now, unfortunately.

My best analogy is to compare Republicans/conservatives to 4 year olds. You can’t debate or reason with them, but equally you can’t just descend to their level and start shouting and screaming at them either.

You just have to be incredibly patient, and hope for incremental progress. It sucks, but the problem is that every other approach sucks even more.

On that note, I’m outta here.

Nobody talks about descending to their level. Every allegation of fraud and dishonesty can and should be substantiated with fact. Calling it like it is is what the liberal approach should be about. Plus added forcefulness. Of course, if the Dems have been bought and paid for…

34 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:13:21pm

re: #30 kirkspencer

One of the simple things I do and teach others to do is follow the sources. When someone says “such and so says”, go read what such and so actually said. It has ceased to amaze me (but still boggles me) how often that it turns out what they said is different from what is reported.

It’s an important skill and habit that we’ve somehow fallen down on imprinting into people.

35 eastsider  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:14:16pm

re: #32 martinsmithy

The real question isn’t whether the world is heating up, and that humankind is responsible. Any sane objective scientist has figured out that the answer to that question is “yes.”

The real question is: what do we do about it? I suspect that as regards the more radical solutions, “the cure is worse than the disease.”

relevant:

Image: bZ516.jpg

36 eastsider  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:18:53pm

our society has evolved to a place where the following gets you rewarded politically:

-connections with large companies (gain $)
-loud, talking point speeches with as much press as possible (name recognition)
-taking a popular short term position

Where the following, which are necessary, have neutral to negative benefit:

-thoughtful analysis and nuanced approaches to legislation/issues
-advocating long term stability and successs
-advocating for a dispersed public interest (e.g., everyone benefits a little, and collectively we benefit a lot) at the expense of a single entity of questionable benefit

Its really no surprise that our discourse and policies reflect this value system.

37 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:18:56pm
The real question is: what do we do about it? I suspect that as regards the more radical solutions, “the cure is worse than the disease.”

So developing new technologies and some industries taking an economic hit until green tech can be implemented is worse than the spread of tropical diseases to new areas, epidemics of crop and forest pests, drought, changing weather patterns, and having an effect on the biodiversity of every biosphere worldwide?


Yeah, depends on your perspective I suppose. /

38 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:21:02pm

re: #32 martinsmithy

The real question isn’t whether the world is heating up, and that humankind is responsible. Any sane objective scientist has figured out that the answer to that question is “yes.”

The real question is: what do we do about it? I suspect that as regards the more radical solutions, “the cure is worse than the disease.”

The end result of unchecked AGW is mass extinction. So no, not really.

39 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:21:24pm

re: #32 martinsmithy

The real question isn’t whether the world is heating up, and that humankind is responsible. Any sane objective scientist has figured out that the answer to that question is “yes.”

The real question is: what do we do about it? I suspect that as regards the more radical solutions, “the cure is worse than the disease.”

Climate engineering gives a sort of a chance in regard to the warming itself, but what to do with, for example, the acidification of the ocean?

40 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:21:46pm

re: #38 Obdicut

The end result of unchecked AGW is mass extinction. So no, not really.

There are no jobs on a dead planet.

41 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:22:48pm

re: #33 Sergey Romanov

Nobody talks about descending to their level. Every allegation of fraud and dishonesty can and should be substantiated with fact. Calling it like it is is what the liberal approach should be about. Plus added forcefulness. Of course, if the Dems have been bought and paid for…

See, in this case I don’t actually see it so much as Democrats being bought off (Although some are, for sure) as I do as it being a case of the energy companies tossing billions out in general to politicians and in PR, plus selling the line that “It will cost jobs and it will make things more expensive”. That…is very hard to overcome, especially with an American people that seems to only react to things when they get a shock. Climate change is harder to see for the average person and can be written off more easily by those that want to pretend it isn’t there.

42 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:23:35pm

Question: what is the Chinese line on the climate change?

43 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:24:51pm

re: #40 ozbloke

There are no jobs on a dead planet.

Try to be more positive. If you are the last person alive on earth, you have have anyone’s job you like.

44 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:25:20pm

*could have

OBVIOUSLY. >:(

45 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:25:24pm

re: #32 martinsmithy

The real question isn’t whether the world is heating up, and that humankind is responsible. Any sane objective scientist has figured out that the answer to that question is “yes.”

The real question is: what do we do about it? I suspect that as regards the more radical solutions, “the cure is worse than the disease.”

I dunno, I kinda like having humans in existence, but whatever works for you is cool, too.

46 mr.fusion  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:28:36pm

re: #30 kirkspencer

One of the simple things I do and teach others to do is follow the sources. When someone says “such and so says”, go read what such and so actually said. It has ceased to amaze me (but still boggles me) how often that it turns out what they said is different from what is reported.

The problem with that is there has been a relentless campaign to discredit any and all sources that don’t back up what they “believe” to be true. Look at the pedestal the right put Charles on…..until he challenged what he felt needed to be challenged. Now, in their eyes, he’s a liberal, traitor, Obama sycophant, or some such nonsense.

47 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:28:45pm

re: #43 prononymous

Try to be more positive. If you are the last person alive on earth, you have have anyone’s job you like.

Bugger that, I’d be a fat looter with the fastest car.

48 garhighway  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:32:07pm

re: #32 martinsmithy

The real question isn’t whether the world is heating up, and that humankind is responsible. Any sane objective scientist has figured out that the answer to that question is “yes.”

The real question is: what do we do about it? I suspect that as regards the more radical solutions, “the cure is worse than the disease.”

Is this the carbon industry’s fall-back position? “Yeah, we’re fucking up the planet, but there’s really nothing practical you can do about it, so leave us alone.”

49 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:34:41pm

re: #32 martinsmithy


The real question is: what do we do about it? I suspect that as regards the more radical solutions, “the cure is worse than the disease.”

Which ‘cure is worse than the disease’ are you talking about?

It seems that deniers freak out about a world government at the mere mention of a tax (or a capitalist inspired carbon market…?), but the ‘disease’ is a really screwed up world bringing us back to the stone age, or worse.

50 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:37:14pm

re: #49 BigPapa

Which ‘cure is worse than the disease’ are you talking about?

It seems that deniers freak out about a world government at the mere mention of a tax (or a capitalist inspired carbon market…?), but the ‘disease’ is a really screwed up world bringing us back to the stone age, or worse.

You have to take into account that they’re fucking idiots and it just falls into place.

51 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:39:20pm

Off topic, but I see Gov. Walker is celebrating the upcoming centennial of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire by welding the windows shut at the state capitol.

Life is simpler without history…

52 mr.fusion  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:45:02pm

Kind of OTre: #24 Sergey Romanov

Exactly. It’s not like they should crush the Rs, see the Rs driven before them , and hear the lamentations of their women. Simply pointing out facts will do.

Case in point:

Politico.com

Republicans’ efforts to cut billions of dollars from the federal budget between now and October could cost the country as many as 700,000 jobs by the end of next year, a nonpartisan economic analysis released Monday found.

….

A Goldman Sachs analysis released last Wednesday also concluded that Republicans’ 2011 cuts would be detrimental to the economic recovery. The House GOP’s plan, the analysis found, could cut the nation’s economic growth by 1.5 percent to 2 percent during the second and third quarters of this year. Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) called that report proof that the House GOP’s budget plan was “a recipe for a double-dip recession” and said it plunged “a dagger through the heart of their ‘cut-and-grow’ fantasy.”

WHY ARENT THE DEMS SHOUTING THIS FROM THE HIGHEST MOUNTAIN TOPS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

53 Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown(New Dance Craze)  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:46:58pm

It’s time like this that i wish Carl Sagan was still around. Not just because we were to be married one day but because he was such a tremendous spokesman and debater for the scientific community.

54 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:48:16pm

re: #52 mr.fusion

You need more Weiners and Frankens.

55 researchok  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:48:18pm

re: #53 Cankles McCellulite

It’s time like this that i wish Carl Sagan was still around. Not just because we were to be married one day but because he was such a tremendous spokesman and debater for the scientific community.

“Billions and billions…”

I do great impressions.

56 freetoken  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:51:29pm

re: #42 Sergey Romanov

Question: what is the Chinese line on the climate change?

Officially - that it exists and is a problem. Pragmatically speaking, they like all developing countries are trying a variety of schemes. Bottom line for them - with 1.34 billion people (and counting) there is no way around the conflict of development vs. AGW.

57 Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown(New Dance Craze)  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:53:46pm

re: #55 researchok

“Billions and billions” Those words are like warm fudge syrup dripping over home made vanilla ice cream to me.

58 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:54:34pm

re: #57 Cankles McCellulite

“Billions and billions” Those words are like warm fudge syrup dripping over home made vanilla ice cream to me.

I’m describing everything like this forever

59 mr.fusion  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:55:02pm

re: #54 Sergey Romanov

You need more Weiners and Frankens.

I want us all to close our eyes and imagine what would be going on today if Goldman and Moody’s came out with reports saying Obama’s economic plans were going to cost us 2% GDP growth and 700,000 jobs.

60 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:55:14pm

re: #52 mr.fusion

Kind of OT

Case in point:

Politico.com

WHY ARENT THE DEMS SHOUTING THIS FROM THE HIGHEST MOUNTAIN TOPS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

one wonders!

61 freetoken  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:56:00pm

Really, for the entire world, the problem is one of sunk costs.

In other words, we’ve bought the cow, we’ve drank the milk - we can’t escape that we’re in this deeply.

Modern civilization is built upon the use of large amounts of energy/day/person.

The greatest mineral wealth of all time has been the stored carbon-hydrogen bonds of 400 million years of photosynthesis.

We’ve exploited that wealth to build a civilization.

There are some unintended consequences, however.

62 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:56:03pm

Thinking that a cabal of crazy scientists numbering in the tens of thousands globally are acting in concert to fool the world is as dumb as Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened.

63 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:57:43pm

re: #59 mr.fusion

I want us all to close our eyes and imagine what would be going on today if Goldman and Moody’s came out with reports saying Obama’s economic plans were going to cost us 2% GDP growth and 700,000 jobs.

I’ve long since given up making sense of it. If our country wants to will itself to become shit through the votes of its largely dumb citizens, I guess there’s not much any of us can do about it

64 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:00:17pm

re: #62 Kid A

Thinking that a cabal of crazy scientists numbering in the tens of thousands globally are acting in concert to fool the world is as dumb as Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened.

Well, they’re total morons, so they’re up to the challenge

People are drawn to conspiracies to explain things that make them uncomfortable, and that was exploited very well by the GOP, weak minds looking for absolute meaning everywhere, because they can’t stand the truth

So well in fact that we may not recover from it!

65 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:00:19pm

re: #59 mr.fusion

I want us all to close our eyes and imagine what would be going on today if Goldman and Moody’s came out with reports saying Obama’s economic plans were going to cost us 2% GDP growth and 700,000 jobs.

The Orangeanator would be the first to the microphone, balling his eyes out screaming “WHERE…ARE…THE…JOBS??!!”

66 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:01:09pm

re: #65 Kid A

The Orangeanator would be the first to the microphone, balling his eyes out screaming “WHERE…ARE…THE…JOBS??!!”

You want that guy’s hand on the tiller, he sounds like an oak, hahahaha

67 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:01:35pm

A revolution against neoliberalism?

To describe blatant exploitation of the political system for personal gain as corruption misses the forest for the trees. Such exploitation is surely an outrage against Egyptian citizens, but calling it corruption suggests that the problem is aberrations from a system that would otherwise function smoothly. If this were the case then the crimes of the Mubarak regime could be attributed simply to bad character: change the people and the problems go away. But the real problem with the regime was not necessarily that high-ranking members of the government were thieves in an ordinary sense. They did not necessarily steal directly from the treasury. Rather they were enriched through a conflation of politics and business under the guise of privatization. This was less a violation of the system than business as usual. Mubarak’s Egypt, in a nutshell, was a quintessential neoliberal state.

What is neoliberalism? In his Brief History of Neoliberalism, the eminent social geographer David Harvey outlined “a theory of political economic practices that proposes that human well-being can best be advanced by liberating individual entrepreneurial freedoms and skills within an institutional framework characterised by strong private property rights, free markets, and free trade.” Neoliberal states guarantee, by force if necessary, the “proper functioning” of markets; where markets do not exist (for example, in the use of land, water, education, health care, social security, or environmental pollution), then the state should create them.

Guaranteeing the sanctity of markets is supposed to be the limit of legitimate state functions, and state interventions should always be subordinate to markets. All human behavior, and not just the production of goods and services, can be reduced to market transactions.

And the application of utopian neoliberalism in the real world leads to deformed societies as surely as the application of utopian communism did.

68 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:05:17pm

re: #62 Kid A

Thinking that a cabal of crazy scientists numbering in the tens of thousands globally are acting in concert to fool the world is as dumb as Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened.

That would be Alex Jones who believes in both of those conspiracies.

69 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:07:04pm

911 was an inside job!

AGW is an inside job!

It’s part of the great plan to create a NWO!

“Mom! Can I have more Cheetos?”

70 Linden Arden  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:08:01pm

Already tired of the right-wing idiots yelling ‘Drill Baby Drill’ and ‘Obama won’t let us drill here’?

CUERO, Texas—Oil-drilling activity in the U.S. has accelerated to a pace not seen in a generation as energy companies, oilfield contractors and landowners rush to exploit newly profitable sources of crude.

The number of rigs aiming for oil in the U.S. is the highest since at least 1987, according to Baker Hughes Inc. The 818 rigs tallied by the oilfield-service company last week are nearly double last year’s count and about 10 times the number that were drilling for oil in the late 1990s.


Wall St Journal - Feb 10, 2011

71 researchok  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:08:04pm

re: #69 Gus 802

911 was an inside job!

AGW is an inside job!

It’s part of the great plan to create a NWO!

“Mom! Can I have more Cheetos?”

You make Mondays tolerable.

72 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:08:15pm

re: #67 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The story should sound familiar to Americans as well. For example, the vast fortunes of Bush era cabinet members Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney, through their involvement with companies like Halliburton and Gilead Sciences, are the product of a political system that allows them — more or less legally — to have one foot planted in “business” and another in “government” to the point that the distinction between them becomes blurred. Politicians move from the office to the boardroom to the lobbying organization and back again.

As neoliberal dogma disallows any legitimate role for government other than guarding the sanctity of free markets, recent American history has been marked by the steady privatization of services and resources formerly supplied or controlled by the government. But it is inevitably those with closest access to the government who are best positioned to profit from government campaigns to sell off the functions it formerly performed. It is not just Republicans who are implicated in this systemic corruption. Clinton-era Secretary of Treasury Robert Rubin’s involvement with Citigroup does not bear close scrutiny. Lawrence Summers gave crucial support for the deregulation of financial derivatives contracts while Secretary of Treasury under Clinton, and profited handsomely from companies involved in the same practices while working for Obama (and of course deregulated derivatives were a key element in the financial crisis that led to a massive Federal bailout of the entire banking industry).

So in Egyptian terms, when General Secretary of the NDP Ahmad Ezz cornered the market on steel and was given contracts to build public-private construction projects, or when former Minister of Parliament Talaat Mustafa purchased vast tracts of land for the upscale Madinaty housing development without having to engage in a competitive bidding process (but with the benefit of state-provided road and utility infrastructure), they may have been practicing corruption logically and morally. But what they were doing was also as American as apple pie, at least within the scope of the past two decades.

73 tigger2005  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:08:15pm

I’ve mentioned this before…there’s this guy “Bob King” who has a degree in marketing (which really qualifies you to be a climate scientist I guess) on Facebook who has been putting up post after post in a very systematic fashion, claiming to discredit AGW. He has a bunch of dittoheads who agree with everything he says. Here’s what one of them had to say:

Liberals do not believe in creation. They believe in evolution. I maintain that if one believes in evolution then all entities on the planet are equal and if trees are sacred and can cause no harm then mankind is sacred can cause no harm; he is a naturally evolved entity and shares an equal position with all others.

But, if mankind is here through intelligent design or some other creation he does hold dominion over the planet and as such can be held accountable for not husbanding the planet.

To me this is the liberal conundrum and it illustrates the evil intent of the warming alarmists. The warming alarmist have no sincere beliefs. They go in whatever direction is necessary to exert control … from waring to climate change to .. what next ?

Bob has been laying out a logical well documented argument that is going nowhere with many who have commented because their intentions are evil. Those with evil intentions (e.g. warming alarmists) cannot be reasoned with; they must be thwarted at every turn for our way of life, our very survival is at stake.

74 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:08:57pm

re: #71 researchok

You make Mondays tolerable.

It’s Monday?

/

75 researchok  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:10:29pm

re: #74 Gus 802

It’s Monday?

/

According to Alex Jones…

76 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:11:41pm

re: #73 tigger2005

To me this is the liberal conundrum and it illustrates the evil intent of the warming alarmists. The warming alarmist have no sincere beliefs. They go in whatever direction is necessary to exert control … from waring to climate change to .. what next ?

Bad grammar. Automatically removed from debate. Next!!!

77 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:12:14pm

re: #75 researchok

According to Alex Jones…

Mondays are a conspiracy…

78 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:12:18pm

re: #73 tigger2005

Wow, that would make sense if only it weren’t utter nonsense.

79 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:12:28pm

re: #73 tigger2005

I’ve mentioned this before…there’s this guy “Bob King” who has a degree in marketing (which really qualifies you to be a climate scientist I guess) on Facebook who has been putting up post after post in a very systematic fashion, claiming to discredit AGW. He has a bunch of dittoheads who agree with everything he says. Here’s what one of them had to say:

Beside Bob King being a moron I still have to laugh when I see people equate “believing” in evolution with liberalism. As if though a conservative can’t believe in evolution and reject creationism.

80 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:13:14pm

re: #79 Gus 802

Beside Bob King being a moron I still have to laugh when I see people equate “believing” in evolution with liberalism. As if though a conservative can’t believe in evolution and reject creationism.

That’s the new space program, actually. Get a bunch of people in a ship and convince them not to believe in gravity.

81 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:14:07pm

re: #80 Simply Sarah

That’s the new space program, actually. Get a bunch of people in a ship and convince them not to believe in gravity.

I have just the right person to be the ship’s commander. Meet Captain Bill O’Reilly.

//

82 tigger2005  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:14:16pm

re: #79 Gus 802

Beside Bob King being a moron I still have to laugh when I see people equate “believing” in evolution with liberalism. As if though a conservative can’t believe in evolution and reject creationism.

Bob King didn’t write that, it was one of his dittoheads. King himself is actually pretty intelligent, but absolutely convinced he has a solid case that AGW is a crock.

83 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:14:23pm

re: #80 Simply Sarah

That’s the new space program, actually. Get a bunch of people in a ship and convince them not to believe in gravity.

They float, Georgie… They float… and when your down here, with me… YOU FLOAT TOO!

84 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:14:35pm

re: #80 Simply Sarah

That’s the new space program, actually. Get a bunch of people in a ship and convince them not to believe in gravity.

that works fine on launch… landings are more difficult.

85 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:14:53pm

re: #80 Simply Sarah

That’s the new space program, actually. Get a bunch of people in a ship and convince them not to believe in gravity.

If you’re on the same evacuation ark with the telephone sanitizers you might be in trouble…

86 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:15:04pm

re: #80 Simply Sarah

That’s the new space program, actually. Get a bunch of people in a ship and convince them not to believe in gravity.

Step 1) train astronaut to lift his own bodyweight.

Step 2) Have astronaut sit in chair.

Step 3) Have astronaut lift the chair as he sits in it.

Step 4) FLIGHT!

87 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:15:10pm

re: #79 Gus 802

Beside Bob King being a moron I still have to laugh when I see people equate “believing” in evolution with liberalism. As if though a conservative can’t believe in evolution and reject creationism.

Exactly. Sen. Jim DeMint (R-Confederacy) recently said that you can’t be a fiscal conservative without being a social conservative first. Does that clown know how stupid that sounds? Way to bring in my sister’s generation (she’s 21) to your cause, Jim, where being gay to them (and me) is as irrelevant as being left-handed.

88 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:15:17pm

re: #82 tigger2005

Bob King didn’t write that, it was one of his dittoheads. King himself is actually pretty intelligent, but absolutely convinced he has a solid case that AGW is a crock.

Oops. There I go again. I always make these mistakes whenever I’m mulling a nap. Just call me Gus Reagan.

//

89 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:15:29pm

re: #84 brookly red

that works fine on launch… landings are more difficult.

Well, no one ever said it was a well designed program.

90 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:15:33pm

re: #81 Gus 802

I have just the right person to be the ship’s commander. Meet Captain Bill O’Reilly.

//

Nah, it will be a normal steampunk, what with all the hot air.

91 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:16:30pm

re: #86 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Baron Muenchhausen had that method patented. Only it involved hair.

92 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:19:19pm

I remember Limbaugh railing about the so-called hoax, and the krazy konspiracy recently, then yelling “THERE IS NO CONSENSUS IN SCIENCE!!!” The first thing I thought of when I heard that was “So, if one person, ONE! comes out and says the earth is flat, that makes the - ahem - argument relevant?”

93 webevintage  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:19:24pm

re: #52 mr.fusion

Kind of OT

Case in point:

Politico.com

WHY ARENT THE DEMS SHOUTING THIS FROM THE HIGHEST MOUNTAIN TOPS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Because you can only shout so long if no one is paying attention.
This weekend there were (from what I understand) no Dems on the Sunday shows nor any labor leaders. This weekend there were protests all over the country in support of public union workers and they hardly made a blip on the news…but get 10 tea party folks together on a street corner and it’s all over the media.

94 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:20:14pm

re: #87 Kid A

Exactly. Sen. Jim DeMint (R-Confederacy) recently said that you can’t be a fiscal conservative without being a social conservative first. Does that clown know how stupid that sounds? Way to bring in my sister’s generation (she’s 21) to your cause, Jim, where being gay to them (and me) is as irrelevant as being left-handed.

The litmus test on stupid. The new RNC chairman said you can’t be a Republican without being pro-life.

95 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:20:42pm

OK, which one of you jokers covered the “Place Reaction Mass for the Anti-Matter Generator Here” sign with the hand-lettered “This Wya to the Tea Parti” Sign?

;) (misspelling made on purpose)

96 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:21:18pm

re: #94 Gus 802

The litmus test on stupid. The new RNC chairman said you can’t be a Republican without being pro-life.

Can’t be Republican and pro-union.//

97 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:21:48pm

Public service announcement…

“Prescribed Burn in the Pine and Foxton Areas


The Colorado State Forest Service will be conducting prescribed fire operations on the Lower North Fork Project (on Denver Water Board lands) near Foxton, which is south of Reynolds Open Space Park. Burns are planned for Tuesday, March 1, with Wednesday, March 2, as a backup. Clean-up operations will probably take the remainder of the week. ”

There’s gonna be some smoke hanging around here. Your tax dollars at work. Another public service announcement.

Kenosha Pass open/high wind advisory.

US 285 Kenosha Pass OPEN with high wind advisory for high profile vehicles

Perfect storm… controlled burn, high winds… ?

98 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:22:09pm

re: #96 Kid A

Can’t be Republican and pro-union.//

Can’t be a Republican if you “smear” Pamela Geller.

//

99 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:22:39pm

re: #5 freetoken

Thing is, Inhofe and the rest of his followers were never really interested in the actual science to begin with - all they wanted to do is have yet another fishing expedition.

I hate to be pedantic about your choice of words, but Inhofe and friends don’t understand what the word science means.

To them, facts are simply something to be interpreted in the light of what is already known.

100 ProBosniaLiberal  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:22:40pm

I have to go to a function soon, but I just found this on Wikipedia about the Libya situation.

British Prime Minister David Cameron suggested the U.K. would seek international cooperation to enforce a no-fly zone, which the Italian government indicated it may offer its military bases to abet.[97] Though the no-fly zone proposal attracted the support of the Australian government, the foreign ministers of Italy and France suggested the option required further study.

France I understand, as they usually act badly when it comes to Human Rights (I’ve said this before). I think what’s going on with Italy is that Berlesconi hasn’t met an autocrat he doesn’t like.

101 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:22:48pm

re: #97 Walter L. Newton

Public service announcement…

“Prescribed Burn in the Pine and Foxton Areas

There’s gonna be some smoke hanging around here. Your tax dollars at work. Another public service announcement.

Kenosha Pass open/high wind advisory.

Perfect storm… controlled burn, high winds… ?

They are from the government & they are here to help.

102 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:22:54pm

Can’t be a Republican if you comment at Little Green Footballs!!11ty

//

103 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:24:22pm

re: #98 Gus 802

Can’t be a Republican if you “smear” Pamela Geller.

//

Can’t be a Republican if you’re pro-business and pro-financial oversight.
//

104 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:25:29pm

re: #102 Gus 802

Can’t be a Republican if you comment at Little Green Footballs!!11ty

//

Can’t be a Republican if you post at LGF and frequently read Kos and Fire Dog.
//

105 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:25:46pm

re: #103 Kid A

Can’t be a Republican if you’re pro-business and pro-financial oversight.
//

Can’t be a Democrat if you hate taxes and the IRS!

//

106 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:26:13pm

Now I’ve done it. The “agents” have my number now.

//

107 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:26:18pm

re: #87 Kid A

Exactly. Sen. Jim DeMint (R-Confederacy) recently said that you can’t be a fiscal conservative without being a social conservative first. Does that clown know how stupid that sounds? Way to bring in my sister’s generation (she’s 21) to your cause, Jim, where being gay to them (and me) is as irrelevant as being left-handed.

Personally, I continue to find it hilarious that St. Reagan, he who apparently moved Heaven and Earth while in office, would have utterly failed to pass the GOP’s litmus tests of what a “true Republican” is.

108 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:26:21pm

re: #105 Gus 802

Can’t be a Democrat if you hate taxes and the IRS!

//

Can’t be an independent if you think for your self!!!!
///

109 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:26:59pm

re: #106 Gus 802

Now I’ve done it. The “agents” have my number now.

//

Come with us, comrade. We have nice new home for you…in Siberia.

/

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:27:36pm

re: #32 martinsmithy

The real question isn’t whether the world is heating up, and that humankind is responsible. Any sane objective scientist has figured out that the answer to that question is “yes.”

The real question is: what do we do about it? I suspect that as regards the more radical solutions, “the cure is worse than the disease.”

I don’t know what sort of radical solutions you’re thinking of, but the disease is pretty bad.

111 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:27:47pm

Since today (March 1) Russia is officially a police state. /
Now we have police (politsiya) instead of militsiya.

112 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:28:04pm

re: #109 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Come with us, comrade. We have nice new home for you…in Siberia.

/

I’m off to the reeducation camp to learn how to play the violin and make watercolor paintings!

113 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:28:32pm

re: #109 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Come with us, comrade. We have nice new home for you…in Siberia Detroit.

/

fify

114 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:29:38pm

re: #111 Sergey Romanov

Since today (March 1) Russia is officially a police state. /
Now we have police (politsiya) instead of militsiya.

This becomes fitting again:

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:29:53pm

re: #39 Sergey Romanov

Climate engineering gives a sort of a chance in regard to the warming itself, but what to do with, for example, the acidification of the ocean?

Pour lots and lots of peroxide into the water. That will balance the Ph right out!

/////////////////////////////////////////

116 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:30:09pm

re: #107 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Personally, I continue to find it hilarious that St. Reagan, he who apparently moved Heaven and Earth while in office, would have utterly failed to pass the GOP’s litmus tests of what a “true Republican” is.

Exactly. He legalized abortion as Governor (and served his terms to their end, Bard of Wasilla), got out of Lebanon and raised taxes several times.

117 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:30:14pm

re: #111 Sergey Romanov

Since today (March 1) Russia is officially a police state. /
Now we have police (politsiya) instead of militsiya.

Oh?
What’d I miss?

118 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:30:51pm

re: #51 calochortus

Off topic, but I see Gov. Walker is celebrating the upcoming centennial of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire by welding the windows shut at the state capitol.

Life is simpler without history…

They are going to get their asses so fined—and possibly the building evacuated until the windows are fixed.

119 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:31:11pm

re: #116 Kid A

Exactly. He legalized abortion as Governor (and served his terms to their end, Bard of Wasilla), got out of Lebanon and raised taxes several times.

Yep. And the first time he raised them, he did it during a recession! Oh, the humanity!!!!!!!!1111

/

120 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:31:12pm

re: #115 SanFranciscoZionist

Pour lots and lots of peroxide into the water. That will balance the Ph right out!

///

/look Flipper’s gone blond!

121 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:31:44pm

re: #118 SanFranciscoZionist

They are going to get their asses so fined—and possibly the building evacuated until the windows are fixed.

Check this:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:32:00pm

re: #68 Gus 802

That would be Alex Jones who believes in both of those conspiracies.

And who sings my MIL’s bedtime lullaby.

123 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:32:10pm

re: #107 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Personally, I continue to find it hilarious that St. Reagan, he who apparently moved Heaven and Earth while in office, would have utterly failed to pass the GOP’s litmus tests of what a “true Republican” is.

The goal should be to improve upon your predecessors. You would hope that your children succeed beyond what you achieved. So they’re simply better Republicans than St Ronnie by building upon his legacy. And they await the newest iteration of the “new and improved” St Ronnie to lead them to the so-con promised land.

124 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:32:24pm

re: #118 SanFranciscoZionist

They are going to get their asses so fined—and possibly the building evacuated until the windows are fixed.

Good grief.
What’s next? Smoking them out?
What a jackass.
Call the fire marshal.

125 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:32:30pm

re: #117 Varek Raith

Oh?
What’d I miss?

Not much, really. Same shit, different name.

[Link: www.latimes.com…]

126 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:32:36pm

re: #119 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yep. And the first time he raised them, he did it during a recession! Oh, the humanity!!!1111

/

You can’t explain that!!!
//

127 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:32:41pm

re: #101 brookly red

They are from the government & they are here to help.

It’s happened before, controlled burn, high winds, equals out of control burn. We’ll see. Most of us in the hills here are wary of control burns. We understand the necessity of the procedure, but wild fire is the is on the top of our list for natural disasters. You have earthquakes in Ca., in the mountains of Colorado we worry about wild fire.

128 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:33:45pm

re: #106 Gus 802

Now I’ve done it. The “agents” have my number now.

//

How do you do the small type like that?

129 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:33:59pm

re: #128 Kid A

How do you do the small type like that?

130 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:34:12pm

re: #128 Kid A

How do you do the small type like that?

Very small keyboard.

132 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:34:21pm

re: #128 Kid A

How do you do the small type like that?

Oops…

< sub >

Without the spaces.

133 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:34:24pm

re: #130 oaktree

Very small keyboard.

And tiny, tiny fingers.

134 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:34:33pm

re: #124 Varek Raith

Good grief.
What’s next? Smoking them out?
What a jackass.
Call the fire marshal.

Someone got excited, Had to call the State Militia,
Wanna move.

135 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:34:35pm

re: #128 Kid A

sub and sup tags.

136 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:34:49pm

re: #128 Kid A

How do you do the small type like that?

Magic.magicmagic

137 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:34:58pm

re: #121 Gus 802

That would be good, if true. One really ought not make windows inoperable. When I posted, I didn’t see any info to the contrary, though the story always went back to an AFL-CIO blog.

138 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:35:26pm

re: #133 reine.de.tout

And tiny, tiny fingers.

I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking

139 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:35:35pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

Pam and Glenn Beck are on the same page…
Beck Claims “Shariah 4 America” Event Is The Moment When “The Enemies All Around The World” Will Attack America

And by not bombing the frak out of them, Obama shows he’s a Muslim!

///

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:35:36pm

In other news, Iran is upset about London’s logo for the summer Olympics.

Rorschach, you should have been here at this hour…

141 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:35:49pm

...

142 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:35:53pm

re: #73 tigger2005

[snip]
Here’s what one of them had to say:

[snip] I maintain that if one believes in evolution then all entities on the planet are equal and if trees are sacred and can cause no harm then mankind is sacred can cause no harm; he is a naturally evolved entity and shares an equal position with all others.[snip]

Lol, this guy is dumb and proud of it.

All entities are equal and sacred if evolution is true? WTF.

Ever hear of carnivory? Ever hear of survival of the fittest? But if everything is equal then I suppose we shouldn’t mind kudzu smothering the southern landscape, Fireants causing trouble in the southwest, or salt cedar choking out native species in the Rio Grande river basin, etc.

143 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:35:55pm

re: #138 Gus 802

I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking

Lol.

144 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:36:08pm

re: #136 Varek Raith

Magic.magicmagic

HERETIC!

145 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:36:11pm

re: #127 Walter L. Newton

It’s happened before, controlled burn, high winds, equals out of control burn. We’ll see. Most of us in the hills here are wary of control burns. We understand the necessity of the procedure, but wild fire is the is on the top of our list for natural disasters. You have earthquakes in Ca., in the mountains of Colorado we worry about wild fire.

We in CA have fire and earthquakes to worry about. Jealous yet?

146 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:36:17pm

re: #138 Gus 802

I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking I’m shrinking

Gus, just a word of warning: If I find you caught in a spider web, screaming “Help me!,” I’m hauling out a can of Raid.

147 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:36:19pm

...

148 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:36:23pm

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

149 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:36:40pm

re: #141 Kid A

[Link: www.w3schools.com…]
:)

150 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:36:54pm

re: #145 calochortus

We in CA have fire and earthquakes to worry about. Jealous yet?

Isn’t that the four seasons in California? Earthquakes, Fires, Floods, and Mud?

151 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:36:57pm

So let’s please be really clear about some things:

1. The science was always kosher.

2. Each time another review goes and re-analyzes the results - only to find the science is kosher - the science is shown to be correct.

3. The deniers are not interested in what is true or right or correct. They are interested in protecting the bottom lines of their corporate masters.

4. The objections raised to the papers and emails in question, even if true beyond the wildest dreams of the deniers still would not get rid of millions of measurements taken from around the world for decades - that all show clear signs of man caused warming at a catastrophic if unchecked rate.

5. Catastrophic includes:

a. Billions of people with insufficient food, water and shelter, with attendant political and social unrest. A first hint of this were the food riots in the Middle East.

b. Billions of unwanted climate refugees who will try to enter other nations. Those other nations will have an increasingly difficult time feeding, housing and supplying fresh water to their own people. Put two and two together when millions of Mexicans try to enter the US because their other choice is starvation. Put two and two together when US crops fail. Put two and two together as our military has to bounce from flash point to flash point.

c. Numerous major coastal cities wiped out by flooding. And what would losing NY do to our economy anyway?

d. Increased devastating storms. Storms of the century will become common place.

e. Massive spread of contagion. Critters migrate with climate shifts into populations without immunities. We had Dengue fucking fever in MIAMI last year.

f. If methane and SO2 tipping points are crossed, ocean anoxia and atmospheric toxicity might mean the actual extinction of our species.

6. Get real about this for the love of G-d. We have a window now this decade! where aggressive measures to deploy new technologies (like wind, solar, nuclear smart grids,) will actually make us money and increase national security - while saving our civilization. If we start this decade.

The other option is a slow choking of our civilization that will get really intolerable globally in the 2030’s and become harsh in America by the 2040s. It will completely crash our civilization as we know it by 2100. If you think that is a harsh statement, or out of the park or over the top, then ask yourself this: What will America look like when it produces only enough food for 1 in 5, has refugees from the coastal cities trying to find a new home and monster storms ripping apart the dustbowl heartland? What kind of democracy would we have then?

152 garhighway  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:37:02pm

re: #142 prononymous

Lol, this guy is dumb and proud of it.

All entities are equal and sacred if evolution is true? WTF.

Ever hear of carnivory? Ever hear of survival of the fittest? But if everything is equal then I suppose we shouldn’t mind kudzu smothering the southern landscape, Fireants causing trouble in the southwest, or salt cedar choking out native species in the Rio Grande river basin, etc.

You may think that, but somewhere a slime mold disagrees, and since you are equal…

153 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:37:11pm

GOP 2012GOP2016GOP2020GOP2024

154 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:37:16pm

re: #145 calochortus

We in CA have fire and earthquakes to worry about. Jealous yet?

and mud slides… don’t forget the mud slides

155 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:37:19pm

re: #137 calochortus

That would be good, if true. One really ought not make windows inoperable. When I posted, I didn’t see any info to the contrary, though the story always went back to an AFL-CIO blog.

I don’t know. That’s from the official city of Madison website. Can’t believe everything you read within the first 24 hours.

156 martinsmithy  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:37:23pm

If your solution to global warming is “green” technologies (including, btw, nuclear power) replacing fossil fuels, then count me in.

If your solution is a luddite return to a primitive economy, and resulting mass starvation and misery in developing nations and continents that will dwarf impacts from global warming, then count me out.

157 Kid A  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:37:38pm

re: #149 Varek Raith

[Link: www.w3schools.com…]
:)

Thanks!

158 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:38:22pm

Subscripting is why we can’t have nice things.

159 garhighway  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:38:31pm

re: #156 martinsmithy

If your solution is a luddite return to a primitive economy, and resulting mass starvation and misery in developing nations and continents that will dwarf impacts from global warming, then count me out.

Who here has proposed this?

160 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:38:31pm

Denialism has become a religion, pure and simple.

161 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:38:31pm

Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working.

162 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:38:33pm

re: #150 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Isn’t that the four seasons in California? Earthquakes, Fires, Floods, and Mud?

don’t forget drought

163 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:38:39pm

re: #142 prononymous

Lol, this guy is dumb and proud of it.

All entities are equal and sacred if evolution is true? WTF.

Ever hear of carnivory? Ever hear of survival of the fittest? But if everything is equal then I suppose we shouldn’t mind kudzu smothering the southern landscape, Fireants causing trouble in the southwest, or salt cedar choking out native species in the Rio Grande river basin, etc.

And therein lies the problem. The question isn’t whether a tree more sacred than I am, it’s whether we’d like to have a decent quality of life.

164 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:39:18pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

Pam and Glenn Beck are on the same page…
Beck Claims “Shariah 4 America” Event Is The Moment When “The Enemies All Around The World” Will Attack America

“Extremist cleric to lead White House protest calling for Muslims to ‘rise up and establish Islamic state in America’ “

A hardline Muslim cleric who sparked anger across the U.S. with his anti-American comments in a television interview this month is to hold a protest outside the White House.
British extremist Anjem Choudary - who once said ‘the flag of Islam will fly over the White House’ - has announced he will lead a demonstration calling on Muslims to establish the Sharia law across America.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk…]

165 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:39:29pm

re: #152 garhighway

You may think that, but somewhere a slime mold disagrees, and since you are equal…

I’ll just wait till their colonial phase is over.

“Try thinking now that your cells are spread all over the place you little bastards!”

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:39:29pm

re: #121 Gus 802

Check this:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Ah, much better.

167 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:39:30pm

re: #32 martinsmithy

The real question isn’t whether the world is heating up, and that humankind is responsible. Any sane objective scientist has figured out that the answer to that question is “yes.”

The real question is: what do we do about it? I suspect that as regards the more radical solutions, “the cure is worse than the disease.”

Malarky.

Actually, Denmark creates 23% of its power from wind alone and created 200,000 jobs to do it. They save billions each year on not having to buy il because of ths. Scale that up to America and what you have bought is energy independence from horrible dictatorships, massive job creation in a sector that will always grow and stay at home and a revitalized economy with a peace deficit because we don’t have to fight for oil with those dictators.

168 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:39:38pm

re: #154 brookly red

and mud slides… don’t forget the mud slides

Yea, us!

169 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:40:10pm

re: #156 martinsmithy

If your solution to global warming is “green” technologies (including, btw, nuclear power) replacing fossil fuels, then count me in.

If your solution is a luddite return to a primitive economy, and resulting mass starvation and misery in developing nations and continents that will dwarf impacts from global warming, then count me out.

I…huh? Where are you getting this from? No one is suggesting that. And mass starvation and misery is exactly what will occur if we don’t do something about global warming.

170 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:40:12pm

re: #161 Gus 802

Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working.

Whoa, you broke the comment box…
I’m telling!

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:40:14pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

Pam and Glenn Beck are on the same page…
Beck Claims “Shariah 4 America” Event Is The Moment When “The Enemies All Around The World” Will Attack America

When we’re all distracted by some loon with fifty followers prancing around in DC?

172 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:40:21pm

re: #160 Sergey Romanov

Denialism has become a religion, pure and simple.

Good fit.

173 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:40:31pm

re: #161 Gus 802

Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working. Viagra stopped working.

NO IT HASN’TNO IT HASN’TNO IT HASN’TNO IT HASN’TNO IT HASN’TNO IT HASN’Toopsoopsoopsoopsoopsoopsoopsoopsoops

174 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:40:41pm

re: #168 calochortus

Yea, us!

But mudslides in the 12oz glass size are good…

175 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:40:43pm

re: #154 brookly red

and mud slides… don’t forget the mud slides

And the Santa Ana winds.

176 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:41:17pm

re: #168 calochortus

Yea, us!

And hail, and frogs, and locust … where have we heard this before?

177 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:41:23pm

re: #175 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And the Santa Ana winds.

And alien invaders.

178 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:41:38pm

re: #175 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And the Santa Ana winds.

Not in Northern CA. We rule.

179 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:42:07pm

re: #170 Varek Raith

Whoa, you broke the comment box…
I’m telling!

Who do Sith go to to tell on somebody? The midichlorans?

:p

180 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:42:16pm

re: #163 calochortus

Lol, this guy is dumb and proud of it.

All entities are equal and sacred if evolution is true? WTF.

Ever hear of carnivory? Ever hear of survival of the fittest? But if everything is equal then I suppose we shouldn’t mind kudzu smothering the southern landscape, Fireants causing trouble in the southwest, or salt cedar choking out native species in the Rio Grande river basin, etc.

And therein lies the problem. The question isn’t whether a tree more sacred than I am, it’s whether we’d like to have a decent quality of life.

They are all proud of their ignorance and stupidity on that side of the aisle.

Democracy fails when morons are allowed to think their fantasies are the same as facts and then vote on them. It fails worse when unchecked soulless, evil, plutocrats play on the fears and base emotions of those morons to get what they want.

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:42:19pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

“Extremist cleric to lead White House protest calling for Muslims to ‘rise up and establish Islamic state in America’ “

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk…]

So, how many people do you think he can get to show up for this?

182 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:42:22pm

re: #173 Sergey Romanov

NO IT HASN’TNO IT HASN’TNO IT HASN’TNO IT HASN’TNO IT HASN’TNO IT HASN’Toopsoopsoopsoopsoopsoopsoopsoopsoops

If you stop that I am going click on inspect elements & expose you to the world ;)

183 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:42:28pm

re: #176 brookly red

And hail, and frogs, and locust … where have we heard this before?

That’s just to keep everyone in the whole country from moving here because of our incredible awesomeness.

184 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:42:28pm

re: #177 Varek Raith

And alien invaders.

Haven’t you heard? They come in peace! I saw it on the TV!

/

185 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:42:42pm

re: #178 calochortus

Not in Northern CA. We rule.

Yeah, but you’re practically Southern Oregon up there.

186 garhighway  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:43:04pm

re: #184 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Haven’t you heard? They come in peace! I saw it on the TV!

/

It’s a cookbook!

187 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:43:17pm

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

So, how many people do you think he can get to show up for this?

32 young beardos.

/

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:43:26pm

re: #185 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yeah, but you’re practically Southern Oregon up there.

Don’t try and tell Oregon that.

189 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:43:27pm

re: #182 brookly red

If you stop that I am going click on inspect elements & expose you to the world ;)

Hey! Inspect your own elements!

190 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:43:31pm

re: #186 garhighway

It’s a cookbook!

Mmmm…Soylent Green…*drools*

191 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:43:45pm

re: #186 garhighway

It’s a cookbook!

So, what are the new “V” lizards eating nowadays?

192 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:43:51pm

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

So, how many people do you think he can get to show up for this?

I don’t know, why are you asking me? I was supplying supplemental material to Killgore’s comment. Call them us, ask them or something.

193 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:43:57pm

re: #187 Gus 802

32 young beardos.

/

Is anyone going to take pictures? I want pictures!!

194 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:43:59pm

re: #183 calochortus

That’s just to keep everyone in the whole country from moving here because of our incredible awesomeness.

seems you may have left the back door unlocked…

195 garhighway  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:44:26pm

re: #191 oaktree

So, what are the new “V” lizards eating nowadays?

I don’t know, and their women are so hot I really don’t care.

196 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:44:27pm

re: #190 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Mmmm…Soylent Green…*drools*

Soylent Green™ … now in three cheese flavors.

/

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:44:45pm

re: #192 Walter L. Newton

I don’t know, why are you asking me? I was supplying supplemental material to Killgore’s comment. Call them us, ask them or something.

I was asking the list in general.

198 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:45:00pm

re: #163 calochortus

And speaking of evolution, right now we are in a Darwinian trial where the intelligence, educability and socialization of humanity is the crucial factor.

That should keep you up at night.

199 Lidane  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:45:57pm

re: #94 Gus 802

The new RNC chairman said you can’t be a Republican without being pro-life.

That’s been the default position of the party base for decades. Might as well make it official.

200 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:46:03pm

And try our new Soylent Green Spread™

Fortified with essential calcium.

201 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:46:17pm

re: #198 LudwigVanQuixote

And speaking of evolution, right now we are in a Darwinian trial where the intelligence, educability and socialization of humanity is the crucial factor.

That should keep you up at night.

With a nice self-inflicted population bottleneck tossed in. When various religions talk about “the Elect” I do not think this is what they had in mind.

202 garhighway  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:46:26pm

re: #200 Gus 802

And try our new Soylent Green Spread™

Fortified with essential calcium.

And it’s a dessert topping, too!

203 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:46:30pm

re: #198 LudwigVanQuixote

And speaking of evolution, right now we are in a Darwinian trial where the intelligence, educability and socialization of humanity is the crucial factor.

That should keep you up at night.

GAAAAAHHHHHH! Thanks Ludwig.

204 garhighway  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:47:08pm

Outta here. Seeya.

205 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:48:11pm

re: #198 LudwigVanQuixote

And speaking of evolution, right now we are in a Darwinian trial where the intelligence, educability and socialization of humanity is the crucial factor.

That should keep you up at night.

I’ll refrain from posting my original comment due to its extreme cynicism and pessimistic attitude about my fellow man.

206 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:48:21pm

Earlier I picked up some Underwood Deviled Ham. I might as well be eating Soylent Green.

207 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:48:28pm

re: #200 Gus 802

And try our new Soylent Green Spread™

Fortified with essential calcium.

And new Soylent Lite

208 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:48:30pm

re: #196 Gus 802

Soylent Green™ … now in three cheese flavors.

/

So, what is on the dinner menu in the Lizard-dom tonight?

Out my way it was penne pasta in a spicy homemade red sauce with cooked chicken. Topped with freshly grated parmesan cheese and a glass of red wine (New York State).

209 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:48:55pm

re: #165 prononymous

I’ll just wait till their colonial phase is over.

“Try thinking now that your cells are spread all over the place you little bastards!”

Also as a side note for the biology geeks. Slime molds are some of the few organisms on earth, besides humans, that conduct agriculture. A few of the other animals that do so are certain ants, termites, some damselfish, and a snail.

210 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:49:30pm

re: #208 oaktree

So, what is on the dinner menu in the Lizard-dom tonight?

Out my way it was penne pasta in a spicy homemade red sauce with cooked chicken. Topped with freshly grated parmesan cheese and a glass of red wine (New York State).

Souplantation. Got a coupon for 2 adults and 2 kids meal for $19.99.

211 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:49:50pm

re: #208 oaktree

So, what is on the dinner menu in the Lizard-dom tonight?

Out my way it was penne pasta in a spicy homemade red sauce with cooked chicken. Topped with freshly grated parmesan cheese and a glass of red wine (New York State).

Underwood Deviled Ham.

So instead of Soylent Green is people! I’m having Underwood Deviled Him is pig parts!

212 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:49:52pm

re: #209 prononymous

Also as a side note for the biology geeks. Slime molds are some of the few organisms on earth, besides humans, that conduct agriculture. A few of the other animals that do so are certain ants, termites, some damselfish, and a snail.

Must be one talented snail.
/

213 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:49:52pm

re: #207 brookly red

And new Soylent Lite

All that good flavor, but half the fat! You won’t believe your tastebuds!

214 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:50:03pm

re: #206 Gus 802

Earlier I picked up some Underwood Deviled Ham. I might as well be eating Soylent Green.

well yeah, people taste just like pork, you would neve…

uh, well that’s what I heard.

215 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:50:38pm

re: #213 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

All that good flavor, but half the fat! You won’t believe your tastebuds!

Yes, trust those on the product itself…

216 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:51:31pm

re: #213 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

All that good flavor, but half the fat! You won’t believe your tastebuds!

We have newer products coming up. For instance we should be releasing Soylent Naval Jelly™ in time for boating season. Help remove rust.

217 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:52:15pm

re: #216 Gus 802

We have newer products coming up. For instance we should be releasing Soylent Naval Jelly™ in time for boating season. Help remove rust.

For a moment there I thought it said “Soylent New Jersey”…

218 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:52:29pm

re: #203 calochortus

re: #205 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yeah, the short form is that een though we have the technology and the capacity to avoid a catastrophe that people have seen coming for decades - the first major National Academy report about AGW went to President Johnson in 1965!- we are dependent on the votes and power plays of those driven by a tragedy of the commons mentality.

219 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:53:08pm

re: #208 oaktree

So, what is on the dinner menu in the Lizard-dom tonight?

Out my way it was penne pasta in a spicy homemade red sauce with cooked chicken. Topped with freshly grated parmesan cheese and a glass of red wine (New York State).

We grilled planked salmon earlier, with Frascati. (Our first two asparagus of the year came up today.)

220 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:53:30pm

re: #197 SanFranciscoZionist

I was asking the list in general.

I hope you get an answering to your probing and pressing question.

221 Four More Tears  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:53:50pm

The ACLU Defends The Ten Commandments In School, heads of people who don’t understand the ACLU asplode.

222 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:53:54pm

re: #217 oaktree

For a moment there I thought it said “Soylent New Jersey”…

Hey man, even I draw the line somewhere. Hard to get that “baked-in smoked flavoring” taste out of my mouth.

223 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:54:04pm

re: #218 LudwigVanQuixote

Gee, we haven’t all died yet. Must not be a problem…

224 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:54:13pm

re: #217 oaktree

For a moment there I thought it said “Soylent New Jersey”…

…topped with Velveeta

225 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:54:24pm

re: #221 JasonA

The ACLU Defends The Ten Commandments In School, heads of people who don’t understand the ACLU asplode.

Wait, you mean the ACLU fights for conservatives as well as liberals! This news has destroyed my fragile little mind.

/

226 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:54:26pm

Gus_802 Promotes Soylent products at LGF!!11ty #LGF #blogwars

Eleventy!

Brought to you by…

Soylent Condoms™ — Feels just like a second skin.

227 Four More Tears  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:56:08pm

re: #226 Gus 802

Gus_802 Promotes Soylent products at LGF!!11ty #LGF #blogwars

Eleventy!

Brought to you by…

Soylent Condoms™ — Feels just like a second skin.

Well I’m done with safe sex thanks to that thought…

228 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:56:22pm

Byyyyy Mennen Soylent Green.

229 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:56:49pm

re: #218 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #205 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yeah, the short form is that een though we have the technology and the capacity to avoid a catastrophe that people have seen coming for decades - the first major National Academy report about AGW went to President Johnson in 1965!- we are dependent on the votes and power plays of those driven by a tragedy of the commons mentality.

[comment deleted]

230 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:56:51pm

re: #224 brookly red

…topped with Velveeta

Hmm.. ya gotta wonder. (Looks over at nearby Philly Cheesesteak shop…)

231 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:57:17pm

re: #226 Gus 802

Gus_802 Promotes Soylent products at LGF!!11ty #LGF #blogwars

Eleventy!

Brought to you by…

Soylent Condoms™ — Feels just like a second skin.

so the other guy was just a tad bigger than you… oh well.

232 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:57:54pm

re: #148 Sergey Romanov

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

OK, now how do you make it do that wave thing?

Use sup sup sup the sub sub sub?

233 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:58:02pm

re: #223 calochortus

Gee, we haven’t all died yet. Must not be a problem…

The tried and true method for dealing with limited resources in human history.

Kill all those other bastards using them.

234 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:58:09pm

re: #230 oaktree

Hmm.. ya gotta wonder. (Looks over at nearby Philly Cheesesteak shop…)

no that’s soylent wiz…

235 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:58:24pm

re: #223 calochortus

Gee, we haven’t all died yet. Must not be a problem…

Yeah… LOL that too is a standard denier line… They are such fucking idiots.

236 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:59:22pm

re: #233 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The tried and true method for dealing with limited resources in human history.

Kill all those other bastards using them.

it ain’t broke don’t fix it…

237 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:59:35pm

re: #233 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The tried and true method for dealing with limited resources in human history.

Kill all those other bastards using them.

They’ve got oil! We must “liberate” them!

/

238 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 3:59:54pm

re: #232 reine.de.tout

Sure. You can “quote” that comment to see the code.

239 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:00:52pm

hahahahahaha

Not as pretty as Sergey’s wave.
But impressive all the same, if I do say so myself.

240 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:01:59pm

re: #237 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

They’ve got oil! We must “liberate” them!

/

cool, when do we liberate Canada?

241 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:02:13pm

Soylent Condoms

i’m not gonna touch this thread

242 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:03:16pm

re: #240 brookly red

cool, when do we liberate Canada?

Soon my friend. Soon, we shall have their maple syrup…and the oil.

/

243 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:03:20pm

re: #238 Sergey Romanov

Sure. You can “quote” that comment to see the code.

YesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYes

244 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:03:30pm

re: #241 engineer dog

Soylent Condoms

i’m not gonna touch this thread

too late… it’s transmitted through your mouse.

245 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:03:37pm

re: #148 Sergey Romanov

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Ah.
So when you’re ending the series, you have to include the number of ends for each one of the opens that you used?

246 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:04:19pm

re: #242 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Soon my friend. Soon, we shall have their maple syrup…and the oil.

/

can we take their beer while we are at it?

247 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:04:41pm

test

248 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:05:18pm

re: #245 reine.de.tout

Ah.
So when you’re ending the series, you have to include the number of ends for each one of the opens that you used?

I just tested and LGF engine actually adds the closing tags automatically. Heh.

249 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:05:32pm

re: #221 JasonA

The ACLU Defends The Ten Commandments In School, heads of people who don’t understand the ACLU asplode.

The ACLU has a single goal. They don’t serve the gay agenda. They don’t serve the liberal agenda. They don’t serve the anti-Christian agenda. They don’t serve anyone else’s agenda. They merely have a fanatical devotion to the broadest possible interpretation of the First Amendment.

250 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:06:33pm

re: #248 Sergey Romanov

I just tested and LGF engine actually adds the closing tags automatically. Heh.

you just ate from the tree of knowledge… don’t stand next to me.

251 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:06:45pm

re: #249 SanFranciscoZionist

The ACLU has a single goal. They don’t serve the gay agenda. They don’t serve the liberal agenda. They don’t serve the anti-Christian agenda. They don’t serve anyone else’s agenda. They merely have a fanatical devotion to the broadest possible interpretation of the First Amendment.

THOSE BASTARDS!
/

252 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:07:20pm

I had the misfortune of catching about 10 minutes of Megyn Kelly and Michelle Malkin talking today about the ‘violent leftist thugs’ in Madison and how the violence was spreading all over, all thanks to Obama’s ‘community organising’ and how he was preparing for major violence in 2012. Not to mention how the left was attacking the First Amendment and how the vile liberals were daring to attack the Tea Party, and why Obama was suddenly silent and not calling for civility, after daring to blame the Tea Party for lack of civility.

Holy shit.

FOX is bizarre. You can’t satirise this. I swear I could watch the hate and fear spread throughout the cafeteria I was in, on every face. I half-expected someone watching to stand up and yell, ‘let’s git them libz before they get us!’ and half the people in the room to storm out chanting behind him.

253 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:08:45pm

re: #252 Renaissance_Man

I had the misfortune of catching about 10 minutes of Megyn Kelly and Michelle Malkin talking today about the ‘violent leftist thugs’ in Madison and how the violence was spreading all over, all thanks to Obama’s ‘community organising’ and how he was preparing for major violence in 2012. Not to mention how the left was attacking the First Amendment and how the vile liberals were daring to attack the Tea Party, and why Obama was suddenly silent and not calling for civility, after daring to blame the Tea Party for lack of civility.

Holy shit.

FOX is bizarre. You can’t satirise this. I swear I could watch the hate and fear spread throughout the cafeteria I was in, on every face. I half-expected someone watching to stand up and yell, ‘let’s git them libz before they get us!’ and half the people in the room to storm out chanting behind him.

/Illinois Nazis are out, Wisconsin Commies are in!

254 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:10:03pm

255 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:10:23pm

re: #246 brookly red

can we take their beer while we are at it?

Yes. And that ham that they claim is “bacon”!

256 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:10:26pm

re: #254 Gus 802

Show off!

257 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:12:11pm

re: #255 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yes. And that ham that they claim is “bacon”!

and we could liberate the lobster farms too? yes?

258 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:12:34pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

“Extremist cleric to lead White House protest calling for Muslims to ‘rise up and establish Islamic state in America’ “

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk…]

Choudary is a notorious extremist and he is indeed dangerous. However, Beck does not help by claiming that America is now so weak that American Muslims are going to rise up and overthrow the government. It’s stupid.

259 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:12:38pm

re: #148 Sergey Romanov

ѾѾѾѾѾѾѾѾѾѾѾ

260 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:12:59pm

re: #248 Sergey Romanov

I just tested and LGF engine actually adds the closing tags automatically. Heh.

cool! I “quoted” mine, and the ending tags were added.

261 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:13:09pm

( | )

262 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:13:42pm

OK, I need a nap. Hasta later.

263 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:14:14pm

re: #259 Sergey Romanov

ѾѾѾѾѾѾѾѾѾѾѾ

re: #260 reine.de.tout

cool! I “quoted” mine, and the ending tags were added.

Grow up!
/

264 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:14:24pm

re: #257 brookly red

and we could liberate the lobster farms too? yes?

Yes, my friend! For the glory of Comrade Obama!

/

265 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:14:48pm

re: #263 Varek Raith

re: #260 reine.de.tout

Grow up!
/

Dammit, sorry Reine!
Meant to qoute the one below.
:/

266 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:15:53pm

re: #258 Killgore Trout

Choudary is a notorious extremist and he is indeed dangerous. However, Beck does not help by claiming that America is now so weak that American Muslims are going to rise up and overthrow the government. It’s stupid.

actually I don’t give much credence to the notion that right wing media promotes violence BUT I can’t help think that that rally might not go off with out a hitch.

267 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:15:56pm

re: #263 Varek Raith

re: #260 reine.de.tout

Grow up!
/

Nevah!
re: #265 Varek Raith

Dammit, sorry Reine!
Meant to qoute the one below.
:/

Ah.
Still,
NEVAH.

268 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:16:50pm

re: #264 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yes, my friend! For the glory of Comrade Obama!

/

OK, you lost me.

269 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:18:24pm

re: #268 brookly red

OK, you lost me.

Yeah, I kinda lost my train of thought. Well, not so much “lost it” as allowed it to go careening into a wall.

270 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:19:44pm

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

So, how many people do you think he can get to show up for this?

Probably not many but about 5-10% will be FBI agents. I think the Feds probably like these events just so they can monitor who shows up.

271 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:20:59pm

I am hungry. I want something spicy… Hmmmm

272 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:21:03pm

Time to go do something constructive.

273 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:21:54pm

re: #270 Killgore Trout

Probably not many but about 5-10% will be FBI agents. I think the Feds probably like these events just so they can monitor who shows up.

It’s going to look like a Code Pink rally, without the sex appeal.

274 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:22:06pm

re: #270 Killgore Trout

Probably not many but about 5-10% will be FBI agents. I think the Feds probably like these events just so they can monitor who shows up.

ehhh they don’t bother going to the rally… they just read the FB pages.

275 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:28:47pm


276 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:31:11pm

re: #275 Sergey Romanov


Hey where did you get my EKG?

277 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:31:44pm

re: #276 brookly red

From your safe…

278 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:32:11pm

re: #277 Sergey Romanov

From your safe…

How do you know my language?!

279 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:32:50pm

re: #278 Varek Raith

Your language is Arabic?

280 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:34:15pm

re: #277 Sergey Romanov

From your safe…

hahaha! I don’t have a safe… that musta been Tony’s safe.

281 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:34:28pm

This one should be more symmetric.


PS: Image: collegehumor.66e699acca574a805e59c81d948d617b.jpg

282 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:35:03pm

re: #279 Sergey Romanov

Your language is Arabic?

sekrit mooslems are every where

283 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:35:58pm

re: #282 brookly red

Indeed, there is Allah (ﷲ) in your EKG…

284 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:37:35pm

re: #282 brookly red

Not only.

[Link: www.theforce.net…]

285 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:38:50pm

re: #283 Sergey Romanov

Indeed, there is Allah (ﷲ) in your EKG…

must be the Persian girl I am kissing

286 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:39:08pm

re: #284 Sergey Romanov

Not only.

[Link: www.theforce.net…]

nerd.

287 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:40:09pm

re: #286 brookly red

nerd.

Waited since two days ago, huh?

:P

288 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:40:14pm

re: #48 garhighway

Is this the carbon industry’s fall-back position? “Yeah, we’re fucking up the planet, but there’s really nothing practical you can do about it, so leave us alone.”

There’s nowhere left to hide on the question of whether or not AGW is real and substantial, whether or not, as time goes by and CO2 atmospheric levels rise, temperatures will rise more.

Harping on the “uncertainty” in the forecast is a losing game; as the facts trot into the stadium to do their I told you so victory lap, the forecasts are, one after the other, proving to have been, if anything, conservative.

Uncertainty cuts both ways, and if the forecasts are uncertain, that means not only that things might not turn out as bad as they’re saying, but that things might just as well turn out substantially worse.

If you can’t argue the problem away, what to say? Argue the solution away. Argue that there’s nothing we can do. Argue that money spent addressing AGW is money taken from

(i) union benefits [if you’re talking to a union leader]
(ii) tax receipts, [if you’re talking to a Democrat]
(iii) dividends, [if you’re talking to a Republican]
(iv) medicare, [if you’e talking to an old person]
(v) charity, [if you’re talking to a philanthropist]

And so forth. Every cost of addressing AGW can spawn a dozen costs in the imaginations of your audience.

Argue that the cost will be insanely high.

Argue that the discount rate applied to future costs should be 7 percent per year. (This is totally insane. At 3 percent per year, running discount rates backward 2400 years, we’d conclude that one drachma, [basically, the wages of one man-day, or roughly $50 U.S. 2011], invested by a Greek then, would have grown to 3*10 to the power 32 dollars today. That’s 6.7 times 10^27 kg of gold. That’s a cube of gold 70 thousand kilometers on a side. In other words, it weighs more than Jupiter. The deep future cannot be discounted at 3 percent, or 1 percent, or 1/2 of one percent.)

Argue that we will have godlike powers shortly, and needn’t worry about anything because we can simply put up e.g. space shields and deflect the sun’s heat. (This is totally insane. Things may get to the point where we must attempt such measures. But even if they work, will our civilization stand for fifty thousand years?)

Argue that the warming would be good for Nome, AK. (Yeah, maybe so. Until it’s flooded. But so what?) And so on and so forth.

One of the answers to all this is that no, it’s not insanely expensive to adjust. Right now, we can produce electricity from wind power at a cost that, while higher than coal fired electricity, is bearable. Civilization would hold up.

Another answer is that we should push hard with R&D. One or two more doublings of the efficiency of alternative energy, and it wins flat out. It becomes cheaper than coal-fired electricity. Hit that target, and the whole debate just evaporates.

A multi-trillion dollar crash project to convert much of our energy infrastructure to alternative energy is probably not the best course. We’re still making progress with the R&D. Best to build some now, and then, as we get better, build more, and build it better and cheaper. Repeat until we’ve got the problem corralled.

289 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:40:58pm

re: #287 Sergey Romanov

Waited since two days ago, huh?

:P

I am patient… that is why I always win.

290 martinsmithy  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:42:31pm

Actually, Denmark creates 23% of its power from wind alone and created 200,000 jobs to do it. They save billions each year on not having to buy il because of ths. Scale that up to America and what you have bought is energy independence from horrible dictatorships, massive job creation in a sector that will always grow and stay at home and a revitalized economy with a peace deficit because we don’t have to fight for oil with those dictators.

I agree with your sentiments. My one caveat regarding the U.S. is that, under current technologies, we will all be spending more for the energy independence that you advocate.

That’s not the end of the world for us. But it’s a much bigger impact for third world nations, who haven’t yet gotten a significant energy infrastructure of any kind, much less wind or other renewable resources. To blithely say that solutions appropriate for the U.S. and other developed nations are also appropriate for Bangladesh, or Burkina Faso, or even China and India, is to be unrealistic and condemn these nations to a continued misery instead of a path of economic prosperity approaching ours.

291 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:43:05pm

re: #249 SanFranciscoZionist

SFZ, if you’re still here, I left the sources you asked for in the other thread.

All that typing made me hungry, so I’m gonna go eat dinner…

292 martinsmithy  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:43:29pm

#290 is a response to Ludwig Van Quixote in #167. The first paragraph is his. I inadvertently deleted that information. Sorry for the confusion.

293 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:43:45pm

re: #290 martinsmithy

Actually, Denmark creates 23% of its power from wind alone and created 200,000 jobs to do it. They save billions each year on not having to buy il because of ths. Scale that up to America and what you have bought is energy independence from horrible dictatorships, massive job creation in a sector that will always grow and stay at home and a revitalized economy with a peace deficit because we don’t have to fight for oil with those dictators.

I agree with your sentiments. My one caveat regarding the U.S. is that, under current technologies, we will all be spending more for the energy independence that you advocate.

That’s not the end of the world for us. But it’s a much bigger impact for third world nations, who haven’t yet gotten a significant energy infrastructure of any kind, much less wind or other renewable resources. To blithely say that solutions appropriate for the U.S. and other developed nations are also appropriate for Bangladesh, or Burkina Faso, or even China and India, is to be unrealistic and condemn these nations to a continued misery instead of a path of economic prosperity approaching ours.

Denmark has a smaller population than NYC…

294 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:46:45pm

Cute animal.

295 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:49:08pm

re: #294 Varek Raith

Cute animal.

[Video]

“Oh, it runs backwards!”

296 darthstar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:49:42pm

Who says a black president doesn’t help inspire programs for white people?

Only white men with a 3.0 grade-point average can apply for a new scholarship being offered by a Texas nonprofit group, the Austin American-Statesman reports.

Colby Bohannan, a Texas State University student, said he founded the Former Majority Association for Equality group after fighting in the Iraq war and returning home to find no college scholarships available for white males like himself — only women and minorities.

297 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:50:04pm

re: #293 brookly red

Denmark has a smaller population than NYC…

your point being

298 brookly red  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:52:48pm

re: #297 engineer dog

your point being

If you don’t need much power & you happen to be located in the North Sea, wind power makes a lot more sense.

299 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:54:26pm

re: #293 brookly red

Denmark has a smaller population than NYC…

Your point? Yes, converting a lot of our power grid to wind power would be a big project. We built the TVA. We were the arsenal of democracy. We built the interstate highway system. We can do this. We even have idle capacity.

Done right, done over time and with course corrections as we went, we’d put ourselves in a position where our downside would be nothing worse than slightly higher prices for electricity than if we’d stayed with coal. Our upside would be that when we came to the day where further use of coal was simply out of the question, the climate emergency had become so dire…we’d have POWER. Instead of having to go cold turkey and scrape by on our 20% of nuclear and hydro, we could cruise along at 60% or 80% of what we had before we gave up on coal.

And if it really worked well? We’d be able to sail into a future of plentiful electricity, balmy but not scorching summers, arguing vehemently about medicare and the revolution in the Spanish Sahara and the high cost of nanobot surgery.

300 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:54:58pm

re: #275 Sergey Romanov

GodGod
AllhallhallhallhallhallhGodاللهاللهاللهاللهاللهاللهاللهاللهاللهاللهاللهاللهاللهاللهاللهالله

that’s how I messed it up with my Google Translate Add-on. If I selected one character, it gave me “God”, if I selected a string, it gave me “AllahAllahAllah”, then when I quoted it, I got the html shortcuts, or whatever you call those.

301 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:55:34pm

re: #298 brookly red

If you don’t need much power & you happen to be located in the North Sea, wind power makes a lot more sense.

the six million people in denmark need about the same amount of power as any group of six million people in the united states, and we have a whole lot more windy plains and coastline to generate power from than they do

monetize nebraska!

302 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:55:53pm

re: #290 martinsmithy

What is their path to economic prosperity going to look like when AGW occurs?

Mass starvation and millions of refugees doesn’t make for good economics for the 3rd world.

303 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:56:39pm

re: #300 wrenchwench

that’s how I messed it up with my Google Translate Add-on. If I selected one character, it gave me “God”, if I selected a string, it gave me “AllahAllahAllah”, then when I quoted it, I got the html shortcuts, or whatever you call those.

Alphabet soup. Dinner is ready!

;)

304 mr.fusion  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:56:48pm

re: #288 lostlakehiker

See, this is what drives me absolutely nuts about the fact that we’re even having an argument about this. And it has nothing to do with the fact that the science is 100% settled. It’s that there’s no reason not to do this. I think if deniers were asked the overwhelming majority of them would agree that it would be extremely beneficial from a national security standpoint to become more energy independent. Of course that usually turns into a fight about turning our land and seas into one giant oil rig…..

I think our best chance for coming together on this was September 12, 2001. Had President Bush come out and made the factual case that our dependency on foreign oil contributes mightily to our enemies coffers and asked us all to sacrifice and put together a Manhattan Project like effort for new technologies think of where we would be today.

Instead he asked us to buy duct tape and invaded Iraq.

Meanwhile the cost of gas has risen 60 cents a gallon in the last six months or so. Imagine the outrage had President Obama come out six months ago and proposed a 60 cent increase to the gas tax to go toward R & D. Calls of socialism and job killing would no doubt ensue…….but put that money into the pockets of foreign companies and nary a peep.

:sigh:

305 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:57:06pm

re: #42 Sergey Romanov

Question: what is the Chinese line on the climate change?

Mixed. China is building coal fired plants like mad. They’re also one of the leaders in wind power. They just need a lot more electricity, and they need it now, and yet…the climate is fucking them over hard already. They’re worried. So they build wind power capacity too. And solar. They’ve placed bets on every horse.

306 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:57:15pm

re: #299 lostlakehiker

Your point? Yes, converting a lot of our power grid to wind power would be a big project. We built the TVA. We were the arsenal of democracy. We built the interstate highway system. We can do this. We even have idle capacity.

Done right, done over time and with course corrections as we went, we’d put ourselves in a position where our downside would be nothing worse than slightly higher prices for electricity than if we’d stayed with coal. Our upside would be that when we came to the day where further use of coal was simply out of the question, the climate emergency had become so dire…we’d have POWER. Instead of having to go cold turkey and scrape by on our 20% of nuclear and hydro, we could cruise along at 60% or 80% of what we had before we gave up on coal.

And if it really worked well? We’d be able to sail into a future of plentiful electricity, balmy but not scorching summers, arguing vehemently about medicare and the revolution in the Spanish Sahara and the high cost of nanobot surgery.

And take a good chunk out of unemployment in the process, but we might have to (gasp) raise taxes.

307 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:57:56pm

re: #303 Sergey Romanov

Alphabet soup. Dinner is ready!

;)

We’ve had to cut back. We only eat punctuation soup now.

/Mr. w made that up last night….

308 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:58:46pm

re: #298 brookly red

If you don’t need much power & you happen to be located in the North Sea, wind power makes a lot more sense.

Well if you are in the windy plains, wind power makes sense. And if you are in the desert southwest perhaps a mix of solar and wind would be better. If you are by the Ocean, wave power or thermal gradients might be a good choice. If you live somewhere wet and cloudy, hydro power might be a good choice. If you live somewhere geologically active geothermal power might be a good choice. And so on.

309 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:58:48pm

re: #307 wrenchwench

We’ve had to cut back. We only eat punctuation soup now.

/Mr. w made that up last night…

word salad as a starter?

310 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:59:38pm

re: #309 wozzablog

word salad as a starter?

Great idea! That’s in good supply at our house.

311 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:00:59pm

wind power

diversification makes for robust systems

our overwhelming reliance on oil and coal makes our energy infrastructure fragile

312 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:02:12pm

re: #290 martinsmithy

That’s not the end of the world for us. But it’s a much bigger impact for third world nations, who haven’t yet gotten a significant energy infrastructure of any kind, much less wind or other renewable resources. To blithely say that solutions appropriate for the U.S. and other developed nations are also appropriate for Bangladesh, or Burkina Faso, or even China and India, is to be unrealistic and condemn these nations to a continued misery instead of a path of economic prosperity approaching ours.

Exactly right. They are in a different situation. Instead of building an infrastructure on oil and then having to painfully switch later, they can do it right the first time. We should encourage developing countries to invest in renewable energy from the very start.

313 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:02:44pm

re: #311 engineer dog

wind power

diversification makes for robust systems

our overwhelming reliance on oil and coal makes our energy infrastructure fragile

And hey - there should be no need to ever raise bills due to “market spikes”.

The sun doesn’t go out or become harder to utilise as time goes by and the tides will not stop…….

314 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:03:22pm

re: #304 mr.fusion

Thing is, Big Oil’s got their hands far up the GOP’s backsides, so that the GOP’s answer to the problem of energy independence is always the same: “Drill Baby, Drill!” That our energy problems are solely due to “tree huggers” who are standing in the way of getting at oil and coal cheaply and in plentiful supply. So the answer is not to invest in alternative energies, it’s to kill the EPA, to amend or simply repeal items like Clean Air Act, so that we can get at those reserves quickly and cheaply. So what if we’re choking on noxious fumes and living next to lakes that could ignite from a cigarette, we need to get that oil and coal out of the ground…and into China’s hands!

315 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:04:13pm

re: #252 Renaissance_Man

I had the misfortune of catching about 10 minutes of Megyn Kelly and Michelle Malkin talking today about the ‘violent leftist thugs’ in Madison and how the violence was spreading all over, all thanks to Obama’s ‘community organising’ and how he was preparing for major violence in 2012. Not to mention how the left was attacking the First Amendment and how the vile liberals were daring to attack the Tea Party, and why Obama was suddenly silent and not calling for civility, after daring to blame the Tea Party for lack of civility.

Holy shit.

FOX is bizarre. You can’t satirise this. I swear I could watch the hate and fear spread throughout the cafeteria I was in, on every face. I half-expected someone watching to stand up and yell, ‘let’s git them libz before they get us!’ and half the people in the room to storm out chanting behind him.

The Geller-thing is raving like a loon, too. In other words, her usual state.

It’s every day now. Every. Day. The left is itching for civil war. What decent Americans would call themselves members of this party?

316 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:05:21pm

re: #314 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Thing is, Big Oil’s got their hands far up the GOP’s backsides, so that the GOP’s answer to the problem of energy independence is always the same: “Drill Baby, Drill!” That our energy problems are solely due to “tree huggers” who are standing in the way of getting at oil and coal cheaply and in plentiful supply. So the answer is not to invest in alternative energies, it’s to kill the EPA, to amend or simply repeal items like Clean Air Act, so that we can get at those reserves quickly and cheaply. So what if we’re choking on noxious fumes and living next to lakes that could ignite from a cigarette, we need to get that oil and coal out of the ground…and into China’s hands!

Prices will inevitably go up over time as the reserves become depleted - all they do is kick the can down the road and push America backwards in creating renewables.

317 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:05:29pm

re: #311 engineer dog

wind power

diversification makes for robust systems

our overwhelming reliance on oil and coal makes our energy infrastructure fragile

The southwest had a near disaster a few weeks ago. It started in El Paso and spread all the way to Tucson and Taos. Demand for heat jumped when the temperature dropped unseasonably, pressure dropped in the natural gas lines, and they couldn’t keep electricity generation up high enough, which made the gas problem worse, which made the electric problem worse, etc… They’re still investigating and pointing fingers over it.

318 Stan the Demanded Plan  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:08:27pm

re: #315 Charles

The Geller-thing is raving like a loon, too. In other words, her usual state.

Heh, they are actually mobilizing us. Idiots.

319 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:09:35pm

re: #318 stanley sea

Heh, they are actually mobilizing us. Idiots.

We are not idiots.

320 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:10:24pm

re: #304 mr.fusion

See, this is what drives me absolutely nuts about the fact that we’re even having an argument about this. And it has nothing to do with the fact that the science is 100% settled. It’s that there’s no reason not to do this. I think if deniers were asked the overwhelming majority of them would agree that it would be extremely beneficial from a national security standpoint to become more energy independent. Of course that usually turns into a fight about turning our land and seas into one giant oil rig…

I think our best chance for coming together on this was September 12, 2001. Had President Bush come out and made the factual case that our dependency on foreign oil contributes mightily to our enemies coffers and asked us all to sacrifice and put together a Manhattan Project like effort for new technologies think of where we would be today.

Instead he asked us to buy duct tape and invaded Iraq.

Meanwhile the cost of gas has risen 60 cents a gallon in the last six months or so. Imagine the outrage had President Obama come out six months ago and proposed a 60 cent increase to the gas tax to go toward R & D. Calls of socialism and job killing would no doubt ensue…but put that money into the pockets of foreign companies and nary a peep.

:sigh:

Commodities are rising across the board. Part of the problem is plain old inflation. We’ve doubled and redoubled the monetary base in just a few short years. This has to be passing through into M1, and thence into the price pipeline.

Now, the observation that “M0” has grown so much so fast has been called insane, so I’ll provide exact details. First, what is the “monetary base”? read it hereSecond, who says so? Laurence J. Kotlikoff, Jimmy Stewart is Dead, ISBN 978-0-470-58155-1, pp 4-5.

The printing presses are already running overtime. The monetary base measures the amount of money Uncle Sam prints in order to buy things, whether those things are financial securities, tanks, space ships, or lunch for the president. On January 1, 2008, the monetary base totaled $831 billion. On June 1, 2009, it stood at $1.8 trillion!

Uncle Sam printed more money (just shy of $1 trillion) over those 18 months than was printed in the entire history of the republic. And it’s just revving up. The Federal Reserve has pledged to print another … ($1.75 trillion) during 2009 to lower long-term interest rates and thereby continue to bail out the economy. …and could, if banks start lending again, culminate in a quadrupling of the nation’s M1 money supply and, ultimately, of prices!

Wikipedia reports different figures, but Kotlikoff’s book has been favorably reviewed by several heavy hitting financial gurus. He probably got this right.

321 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:11:19pm

re: #316 wozzablog

Prices will inevitably go up over time as the reserves become depleted - all they do is kick the can down the road and push America backwards in creating renewables.

Hell, we’ve been doing that for decades, why stop now? We’ve had energy crisis after energy crisis, yet we keep telling ourselves that the problem isn’t that we’re relying the slowly flattening production of a fuel source with a finite supply, it’s just that we haven’t “invested” enough, that we haven’t exploited all our options, and that investing in alternative energies is “too expensive.”

You want to see our national deficits decline and our budget balanced? Take the shitload of money spent protecting our oil interests and invest it in alternative energy research. Start turning swords in plowshares and we’ll achieve energy independence.

322 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:11:19pm

re: #315 Charles

re: #252 Renaissance_Man

The propaganda is always three steps ahead of a disorganized and apathetic middle and left.

Remember the trade unionists were the very first target of the Nazis. They were serving their corporate masters then as well.

The next step is for a charismatic and very dangerous leader to take the right away from both Fox and the plutocrats and bend it to his will. Then it gets very interesting. Right now we are seeing test shots of how far America will go with the most outrageous legislation out in the open. We are seeing how far the right can be brainwashed and we are seeing them getting primed to purge the “fake” ‘merikans…

Don’t discount these calls for civil war.

This is all the same ploy the Palestinians use. Accuse the other side of your sins early and often. Make it seem ridiculous when the other side points out that they are the only ones doing it.

The time is going to come where either enough people stand up to this and speak out enough to quash it (and it is almost too late for that) or violence will be inevitable.

323 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:11:48pm

re: #317 wrenchwench

The southwest had a near disaster a few weeks ago. It started in El Paso and spread all the way to Tucson and Taos. Demand for heat jumped when the temperature dropped unseasonably, pressure dropped in the natural gas lines, and they couldn’t keep electricity generation up high enough, which made the gas problem worse, which made the electric problem worse, etc… They’re still investigating and pointing fingers over it.

Oh yeah, that was a bunch of fun. I’m just glad my house in abq was spared losing gas or power. It would have killed of most of the organisms I’m culturing and destroyed 6 months of business development.

I need to buy a backup generator as soon as I can afford it…

324 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:12:01pm

re: #306 Decatur Deb

And take a good chunk out of unemployment in the process, but we might have to (gasp) raise taxes.

Most huge infrastructure projects have been paid for with bonds. Can we not structure this so that it’s partly paid for with bonds, and only partly with taxes?

325 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:13:15pm

re: #320 lostlakehiker

Commodities are rising across the board. Part of the problem is plain old inflation. We’ve doubled and redoubled the monetary base in just a few short years. This has to be passing through into M1, and thence into the price pipeline.

Now, the observation that “M0” has grown so much so fast has been called insane, so I’ll provide exact details. First, what is the “monetary base”? read it hereSecond, who says so? Laurence J. Kotlikoff, Jimmy Stewart is Dead, ISBN 978-0-470-58155-1, pp 4-5.

Wikipedia reports different figures, but Kotlikoff’s book has been favorably reviewed by several heavy hitting financial gurus. He probably got this right.

The price of oil will continue to climb past the demand curve as it becomes harder to extract - it will become so much more scarce over the coming decades that it will become the major driver of inflation, not just a component of it.

326 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:13:41pm

re: #315 Charles

The Geller-thing is raving like a loon, too. In other words, her usual state.

‘One liberal bad, all liberals bad.’

‘Who run Bartertown? I run Bartertown. Two men enter, one man leave.’

327 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:14:19pm

re: #304 mr.fusion

See, this is what drives me absolutely nuts about the fact that we’re even having an argument about this. And it has nothing to do with the fact that the science is 100% settled. It’s that there’s no reason not to do this. I think if deniers were asked the overwhelming majority of them would agree that it would be extremely beneficial from a national security standpoint to become more energy independent. Of course that usually turns into a fight about turning our land and seas into one giant oil rig…

I think our best chance for coming together on this was September 12, 2001. Had President Bush come out and made the factual case that our dependency on foreign oil contributes mightily to our enemies coffers and asked us all to sacrifice and put together a Manhattan Project like effort for new technologies think of where we would be today.

Instead he asked us to buy duct tape and invaded Iraq.

Meanwhile the cost of gas has risen 60 cents a gallon in the last six months or so. Imagine the outrage had President Obama come out six months ago and proposed a 60 cent increase to the gas tax to go toward R & D. Calls of socialism and job killing would no doubt ensue…but put that money into the pockets of foreign companies and nary a peep.

:sigh:

Reagan, Thatcher especially, and Bush Sr. came out about the importance of this in terms of AGW. The fossil fuel oligarchy is too powerful. As to getting off of foreign oil, Nixon was the first to really scream about it.

Again, the fossil fuel oligarchy was too powerful.

328 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:15:04pm

re: #324 lostlakehiker

Most huge infrastructure projects have been paid for with bonds. Can we not structure this so that it’s partly paid for with bonds, and only partly with taxes?

Probably could, but just as unacceptable to Rep Cantor and Ryan types.

329 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:15:32pm

re: #327 LudwigVanQuixote

Reagan, Thatcher especially, and Bush Sr. came out about the importance of this in terms of AGW. The fossil fuel oligarchy is too powerful. As to getting off of foreign oil, Nixon was the first to really scream about it.

Again, the fossil fuel oligarchy was too powerful.

The trilobites and brachipods own your souls!

/

330 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:16:39pm

re: #323 prononymous

Oh yeah, that was a bunch of fun. I’m just glad my house in abq was spared losing gas or power. It would have killed of most of the organisms I’m culturing and destroyed 6 months of business development.

I need to buy a backup generator as soon as I can afford it…

People were getting their natural gas cut off without warning and at random to supposedly prevent the problem from getting worse. El Paso was having rolling blackouts for two days and nights. Good thing most people who live here are accustomed to living as though it’s still territorial days, or there would have been more suffering then and a LOT more complaining now.

331 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:16:51pm

re: #329 oaktree

The trilobites and brachipods own your souls!

/

And ironically, they were wiped out by a similar carbon driven extinction event - only that time is was a massive series of volcanic eruptions in the Siberian sheet.

332 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:18:54pm

g’night all

333 Stan the Demanded Plan  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:19:04pm

re: #324 lostlakehiker

Most huge infrastructure projects have been paid for with bonds. Can we not structure this so that it’s partly paid for with bonds, and only partly with taxes?

No one wants bonds tho, too stable, can’t make quick bank like betting on unregulated gambles. Sigh.

334 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:19:46pm

re: #331 LudwigVanQuixote

And ironically, they were wiped out by a similar carbon driven extinction event - only that time is was a massive series of volcanic eruptions in the Siberian sheet.

They were guilty of listening to Jindal and Palin and deciding to ignore volcano monitoring. Thus they ended up buried by sudden sediment slides and having no recourse beyond curling up into a ball to die of suffocation…

335 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:20:29pm

re: #331 LudwigVanQuixote

And ironically, they were wiped out by a similar carbon driven extinction event - only that time is was a massive series of volcanic eruptions in the Siberian sheet.

I recall that there is evidence that a massive asteroid shot off of Australia caused the Siberian Steppes to upwell lava.

336 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:23:13pm

T.R.Malthus. P.R.Ehrlich. Limited resources. Unlimited resource usage. Production rate orders of magnitude slower than use. Oil peak. Priority of plastics over fuel. Easily accessed resources used first. Difficult access destroys environment.

Hidden somewhere in there is a mathematical equation. The result of that equation is obvious.

Why can’t most conservatives do the math?

337 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:23:19pm

re: #331 LudwigVanQuixote

And ironically, they were wiped out by a similar carbon driven extinction event - only that time is was a massive series of volcanic eruptions in the Siberian sheet.

Some brachiopods are still with us. The question: Are they the liberal, bleeding heart brachiopods, or the robber baron brachiopods?

338 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:23:28pm

re: #331 LudwigVanQuixote

And ironically, they were wiped out by a similar carbon driven extinction event - only that time is was a massive series of volcanic eruptions in the Siberian sheet.

Hello, Ludwig. Glad I got in before you left tonight.

339 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:24:33pm

re: #337 calochortus

Some brachiopods are still with us. The question: Are they the liberal, bleeding heart brachiopods, or the robber baron brachiopods?

The secret Mooselim ones of course!

340 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:25:56pm

re: #339 oaktree

The secret Mooselim ones of course!

Of course! How silly of me to have missed that vital fact. Perhaps they were the ones who wiped out the good, pious trilobites?

341 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:27:07pm

re: #340 calochortus

Of course! How silly of me to have missed that vital fact. Perhaps they were the ones who wiped out the good, pious trilobites?

If you listen closely you can hear them clack ‘Allah Akbar’ with their shells while they stealthily advance to destroy Amerika.
/

342 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:27:22pm

re: #336 b_sharp

T.R.Malthus. P.R.Ehrlich. Limited resources. Unlimited resource usage. Production rate orders of magnitude slower than use. Oil peak. Priority of plastics over fuel. Easily accessed resources used first. Difficult access destroys environment.

Hidden somewhere in there is a mathematical equation. The result of that equation is obvious.

Why can’t most conservatives do the math?

By definition conservatives are committed to the status quo, some so strongly that they cannot bring themselves to perceive the elements of the equation.

343 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:27:24pm

re: #336 b_sharp

T.R.Malthus. P.R.Ehrlich. Limited resources. Unlimited resource usage. Production rate orders of magnitude slower than use. Oil peak. Priority of plastics over fuel. Easily accessed resources used first. Difficult access destroys environment.

Hidden somewhere in there is a mathematical equation. The result of that equation is obvious.

Why can’t most conservatives do the math?

The problem is that Ehrlich was orders of magnitude wrong in many of his predictions and came out looking foolish when he was proven wrong. Thus I don’t really consider him a reliable analyst.

344 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:28:13pm

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

The problem is that Ehrlich was orders of magnitude wrong in many of his predictions and came out looking foolish when he was proven wrong. Thus I don’t really consider him a reliable analyst.

You missed the equation.

345 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:28:14pm

re: #338 Dark_Falcon

Hello, Ludwig. Glad I got in before you left tonight.

Great to see you too.

346 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:28:59pm

re: #337 calochortus

Some brachiopods are still with us. The question: Are they the liberal, bleeding heart brachiopods, or the robber baron brachiopods?

Indeed! I’m still thinking about the Permian extinction event.

347 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:29:11pm

re: #320 lostlakehiker

I’m glad to see your insane claims have now been moderated slightly. You previously claimed the monetary base had expanded by a factor of four since 2008. It’s nice to see you now acknowledge this claim was wrong, even as you are making— or rather, transmitting another claim.

However, this sentence:

The monetary base measures the amount of money Uncle Sam prints in order to buy things, whether those things are financial securities, tanks, space ships, or lunch for the president.

Is just flat out wrong, and makes me doubt Kotlikoff’s credibilty entirely.

The monetary base is not simply the amount of money that the US government ‘prints’. If a bank makes a profit on an investment, that increases the monetary base. If the bank simply claims an asset is worth more, that increases the monetary base. Neither of those necessitates any action on the part of the US government. They are both affected highly by the monetary supply, but neither of them is the US government printing money to buy anything.

Finally, in order to actually understand the monetary base, you have to take into account the velocity of money.

348 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:29:37pm

re: #336 b_sharp

T.R.Malthus. P.R.Ehrlich. Limited resources. Unlimited resource usage. Production rate orders of magnitude slower than use. Oil peak. Priority of plastics over fuel. Easily accessed resources used first. Difficult access destroys environment.

Hidden somewhere in there is a mathematical equation. The result of that equation is obvious.

Why can’t most conservatives do the math?

Because they are fucking stupid enough to believe that the numbers bend to their will.

349 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:30:23pm

re: #341 oaktree

Too bad they have a hard time out of water. Have they developed little brachiopod shaped wet suits? Ones that let them open their shells and expose their lophophores?

350 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:30:39pm

re: #347 Obdicut

Oh dear god, Kortlitoff is a supporter of the “FairTax”.

Never goddamn mind.

351 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:31:10pm

re: #349 calochortus

Too bad they have a hard time out of water. Have they developed little brachiopod shaped wet suits? Ones that let them open their shells and expose their lophophores?

Sexy.

352 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:31:12pm

re: #348 LudwigVanQuixote

Because they are fucking stupid enough to believe that the numbers bend to their will.

The equation informs us, we don’t inform the equation.

We ignore the equation at our peril.

353 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:31:52pm

re: #348 LudwigVanQuixote

Because they are fucking stupid enough to believe that the numbers bend to their will.

re: #342 Decatur Deb

By definition conservatives are committed to the status quo, some so strongly that they cannot bring themselves to perceive the elements of the equation.

Piano, Ludwig, piano.

354 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:32:15pm

re: #344 b_sharp

You missed the equation.

I’m charging that Ehrlich got the parameters of the equation grotesquely wrong and thus is unreliable.

355 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:32:35pm

re: #347 Obdicut

I’m glad to see your insane claims have now been moderated slightly.

In view of the bivalve comments, I read that as “insane clams” having been moderated. LOL

356 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:33:13pm

re: #349 calochortus

They’ve cut a deal with the cuttlefish…

[Link: www.xkcd.com…]

357 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:34:12pm

re: #355 calochortus

In view of the bivalve comments, I read that as “insane clams” having been moderated. LOL

Bivalves have no need for the Magical Balance Fairy

358 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:34:34pm

re: #351 prononymous

Sexy.

Only if filter-feeding apparatus is sexy. Of course there is that lusty-eating/sex convergence.

359 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:38:09pm

re: #358 calochortus

Only if filter-feeding apparatus is sexy. Of course there is that lusty-eating/sex convergence.

Of course filter feeding organs are sexy. Shesh.

PS. brachiopods aren’t bivalves. :)

360 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:38:18pm

re: #355 calochortus

In view of the bivalve comments, I read that as “insane clams” having been moderated. LOL

to judge by the results, all these so called financial “experts” might just as well be insane clams

361 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:41:05pm

re: #359 prononymous

Of course filter feeding organs are sexy. Shesh.

PS. brachiopods aren’t bivalves. :)

How embarrassing. You are, of course, correct. Well, I’ve been out of school for a long, long time now…

362 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:42:01pm

re: #354 Dark_Falcon

I’m charging that Ehrlich got the parameters of the equation grotesquely wrong and thus is unreliable.

Ehrlich used the equation in a restricted application that used the wrong constraints. He made a prediction, not a prophecy, based on narrow values extant at the time. The equation has a larger and more general application.

You are using Ehrlich’s failed prediction to discount the general equation. Because of your focus on Ehrlich, you have missed seeing how the equation still applies.

363 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:42:04pm

re: #360 engineer dog

to judge by the results, all these so called financial “experts” might just as well be insane clams

So outrageous that you’re demanding their scallops?

364 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:43:35pm

re: #361 calochortus

How embarrassing. You are, of course, correct. Well, I’ve been out of school for a long, long time now…

No worries, it is an easy mistake to make. I have been thinking a lot about marine organisms lately so it was just sitting there in the back of my head.

365 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:47:02pm

re: #362 b_sharp

Ehrlich used the equation in a restricted application that used the wrong constraints. He made a prediction, not a prophecy, based on narrow values extant at the time. The equation has a larger and more general application.

You are using Ehrlich’s failed prediction to discount the general equation. Because of your focus on Ehrlich, you have missed seeing how the equation still applies.

What is this equation you speak of? I got to this thread late.

366 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:50:19pm

re: #364 prononymous

No worries, it is an easy mistake to make. I have been thinking a lot about marine organisms lately so it was just sitting there in the back of my head.

Walking a beach last week with my brother I commented to him that a neat name for a seafood produce company would be “Decapods-R-Us”, but that no one would get it.

Also commented to my niece after finding a small arthopod burrowing at the surfline which looked like a large pale pillbug that she got squeamish about that if it was 4-5 times larger it would probably be cooked and eaten.

367 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:55:04pm

re: #6 BigPapa

In reading up on the Curry Dustup, Dr Benjamin Santer thoroughly debunks Steven McIntyre on his petty FOIA requests, and then some.

What it appears to me is guys like Santer, Dr Richard Alley, and Dr John Abraham, who would rather do science and not PR, need to go on PR campaigns against Inhofe, McIntyre, and Monckton.

They’re demeanor and grounding in actual science are the antidote to the idiocy and exploitation going on with the deniers.

Guys, I know you don’t want to do this crap. You want to do science. But… we need you. Everybody on the planet needs you. I hate to put it on you… but I’m putting it on you.

Great post. Thanks for the links.

368 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:56:52pm

re: #366 oaktree

I wonder what a giant isopod would taste like:

Image: Giant_isopod.jpg

369 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:58:16pm

re: #53 Cankles McCellulite

It’s time like this that i wish Carl Sagan was still around. Not just because we were to be married one day but because he was such a tremendous spokesman and debater for the scientific community.

Plus, it was really great when he said “Billions and billions……”

370 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 5:59:49pm

re: #368 prononymous

I wonder what a giant isopod would taste like:

Image: Giant_isopod.jpg

My bet would be more likely to take like shrimp than tuna*.

Tuna = chicken of the sea.

371 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:03:09pm

re: #365 Dark_Falcon

What is this equation you speak of? I got to this thread late.

The basic idea behind both Malthus and Ehrlich is that populations can grow fast enough to outpace the supply of food and other resources. These ideas have been shown in species other than humans, but both of those men applied it to human populations. They made predictions, which are not prophecies, that rely on conditions following a set pattern. If the pattern changes, as it did with food production, because our technology improved, and with population, because China enacted population controls and higher education in western countries resulted in smaller family sizes, then the predictions become null.

The modern application of the equation is that resources are limited, and use of those resources has a time limit that we are rapidly encroaching on when it comes to oil. We need oil to build the technology that will allow us to break away from oil use for transportation, heating and electrical production. If we don’t slow down on our use of oil for those uses now, we run the risk of not being able to produce alternative technologies to supply energy. This means we will be accessing oil that is increasingly difficult to get to and one of the consequences of that is damage to the ecology will increase.

There is a tendency for some conservatives to assume a prediction is a prophecy and to discount not only the use of the equation but the equation itself when that ‘prophecy’ fails.

372 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:07:38pm

re: #371 b_sharp

The basic idea behind both Malthus and Ehrlich is that populations can grow fast enough to outpace the supply of food and other resources. These ideas have been shown in species other than humans, but both of those men applied it to human populations. They made predictions, which are not prophecies, that rely on conditions following a set pattern. If the pattern changes, as it did with food production, because our technology improved, and with population, because China enacted population controls and higher education in western countries resulted in smaller family sizes, then the predictions become null.

The modern application of the equation is that resources are limited, and use of those resources has a time limit that we are rapidly encroaching on when it comes to oil. We need oil to build the technology that will allow us to break away from oil use for transportation, heating and electrical production. If we don’t slow down on our use of oil for those uses now, we run the risk of not being able to produce alternative technologies to supply energy. This means we will be accessing oil that is increasingly difficult to get to and one of the consequences of that is damage to the ecology will increase.

There is a tendency for some conservatives to assume a prediction is a prophecy and to discount not only the use of the equation but the equation itself when that ‘prophecy’ fails.

The equation I accept. I wasn’t trying to dispute that. I was suggesting you don’t employ Ehelich, due to his repeated “ELEVENTY!!1” predictions. He’s just too easy to parry by citing those errors (even if that means willfully misreading your point, most people will focus on the failures and ignore the basic theory), and it leaves you open to ridicule. Call it tactical advice, and give it the weight you think its worth. Just know it comes from an honest place.

373 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:08:08pm

re: #368 prononymous

I wonder what a giant isopod would taste like:

Image: Giant_isopod.jpg

That question, or one like it, is the foundationstone of Pleistocene science.

374 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:12:33pm

re: #370 oaktree

My bet would be more likely to take like shrimp than tuna*.

Tuna = chicken of the sea.

It would be awesome if it tasted like a giant shrimp.

re: #373 Decatur Deb

That question, or one like it, is the foundationstone of Pleistocene science.


Science was so much more fun in the early days.

A: Will this kill me if I eat it?
B: I don’t know, we have never seen anything like it.
A: Want to split it?
B: Sure.

375 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:12:37pm

re: #371 b_sharp

the only reason malthus’ prediction about population and food didn’t come true a long time ago is that in about 1910 fritz haber invented a method to capture nitrogen, leading to vast quantities of artificial fertilizer. without the haber process, we’d all starve, since we have long since outrun our ability to produce enough food using only natural fertilizers

so we damned well better figure out how to implement the haber process without requiring fossil fuels for it pdq

376 freetoken  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:15:08pm

re: #375 engineer dog

It can be done but again the problem is energy. You can create ammonia out of our atmosphere, but you have to add lots of energy.

There’s a company back in Iowa that has been pushing the idea of using wind power to do just that, thus to reduce the fossil fuel consumption for farming (since the nitrogen which is applied, in very large quantities, is normally made starting with natural gas.)

377 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:16:45pm

re: #373 Decatur Deb

That question, or one like it, is the foundationstone of Pleistocene science.

Also sorta the driving force for a lot of evolutionary developments. Tasty critters constantly coming up with adaptations to make themselves harder to catch and eat. Hard shells, spines, poison, digging, etc.

Heck, quick paragraph on clam predation just from walking a beach. The gulls are walking the surf line catching and eating donax before they get deep into the sand. Gull is big enough, and with a strong enough bill to crack the donax shell. See a lot of clam shells with holes drilled in them. This is often the sign of predation by a snail using a rasping tongue. And the starfish have the neat method of using their arms to pry open the clam a bit - and then extending their stomach into the clam to do the digesting work. Nature is a true work of art.

378 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:17:52pm

re: #368 prononymous

I wonder what a giant isopod would taste like:

Image: Giant_isopod.jpg


Lobster.
(The Roi has eaten one)

379 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:19:34pm

re: #378 reine.de.tout

Lobster.
(The Roi has eaten one)

Let me set the scene:

Beer
Cajun jokes
Dare

380 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:23:55pm

re: #377 oaktree

Nature is a true work of art.


Indeed. This is what gets me. Nature is incredibly beautiful and complex. And I can’t understand having a cavalier attitude about the well being of nature, regardless of who you think made it or how it came to be.

Why would anyone want to destroy something so beautiful?

re: #378 reine.de.tout

Lobster.
(The Roi has eaten one)


Good enough for me. Mmmm.

381 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:26:39pm

re: #380 prononymous


Why would anyone want to destroy something so beautiful?

a wingnut once said to me “conservatives need clean air too, but if there is a conflict between the environment and jobs - bambi must die”

382 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:30:06pm

re: #381 engineer dog

a wingnut once said to me “conservatives need clean air too, but if there is a conflict between the environment and jobs - bambi must die”

Well, he understands that there is a trade-off, and that’s important. So that fellow is not delusional. Wrong-headed, possibly, but not delusional.

383 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:54:52pm

re: #372 Dark_Falcon

The equation I accept. I wasn’t trying to dispute that. I was suggesting you don’t employ Ehelich, due to his repeated “ELEVENTY!!1” predictions. He’s just too easy to parry by citing those errors (even if that means willfully misreading your point, most people will focus on the failures and ignore the basic theory), and it leaves you open to ridicule. Call it tactical advice, and give it the weight you think its worth. Just know it comes from an honest place.

D_F, I always value your input, even when I disagree with it.

384 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 7:08:33pm

re: #347 Obdicut

I’m glad to see your insane claims have now been moderated slightly. You previously claimed the monetary base had expanded by a factor of four since 2008. It’s nice to see you now acknowledge this claim was wrong, even as you are making— or rather, transmitting another claim.

However, this sentence:

Is just flat out wrong, and makes me doubt Kotlikoff’s credibilty entirely.

The monetary base is not simply the amount of money that the US government ‘prints’. If a bank makes a profit on an investment, that increases the monetary base. If the bank simply claims an asset is worth more, that increases the monetary base. Neither of those necessitates any action on the part of the US government. They are both affected highly by the monetary supply, but neither of them is the US government printing money to buy anything.

Finally, in order to actually understand the monetary base, you have to take into account the velocity of money.

You should read the wikipedia link. The term “monetary base” has a technical meaning, and you’re using it in an entirely different sense from that technical meaning.

The velocity of money is not figured into any calculation of the numerical value of the “monetary base”.

The monetary base is highly liquid money that consists of coins, paper money (both as bank vault cash and as currency circulating in the public), and commercial banks’ reserves with the central bank.[1] Measures of money are typically classified as levels of M, where the monetary base is smallest and lowest M-level: M0. Base money can be described as the most acceptable (or liquid) form of final payment. Broader measures of the money supply also include money that does not count as base money, such as demand deposits (included in M1), and other deposit accounts like the less liquid savings accounts (included in M2) etc.

385 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 7:51:57pm

re: #379 Decatur Deb

Let me set the scene:

Beer
Cajun jokes
Dare

HEHE.
When I put a picture of one of those on my FB page, all my Louisiana friends went “YUM!”. All of my non-Louisiana friends said, “EWWWWW”.

LOL.

386 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 7:57:48pm
You should read the wikipedia link. The term “monetary base” has a technical meaning, and you’re using it in an entirely different sense from that technical meaning.

No, I’m not. The technical meaning of monetary base is not just money the government prints in order to buy things. That is simply wrong.

The velocity of money is not figured into any calculation of the numerical value of the “monetary base”.

I didn’t say it was. I said it was necessary to understand the velocity of money to understand the monetary base.

You’re promoting a dude who likes the FairTax, the biggest pile of crap in economics going. Congrats.

387 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 8:11:34pm

re: #381 engineer dog

a wingnut once said to me “conservatives need clean air too, but if there is a conflict between the environment and jobs - bambi must die”

re: #382 Dark_Falcon

Well, he understands that there is a trade-off, and that’s important. So that fellow is not delusional. Wrong-headed, possibly, but not delusional.

I don’t think such views are delusional. Just perhaps wrong and too rigid.

I recognize that there is a balance to be struck between preserving life and expanding economic activity. Simply walking from point A to point B I may kill millions bacteria and arthropods. But thinking that “bambi” MUST die if its existence conflicts with jobs is too rigid, IMO. I would take it on a case by case basis. There will be cases where maintaining the remaining genetic diversity in a population is more important in the long run then the jobs it is blocking. Other times the Jobs will be more important than the life put at risk.

388 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 8:27:24pm

re: #386 Obdicut

No, I’m not. The technical meaning of monetary base is not just money the government prints in order to buy things. That is simply wrong.

I didn’t say it was. I said it was necessary to understand the velocity of money to understand the monetary base.

You’re promoting a dude who likes the FairTax, the biggest pile of crap in economics going. Congrats.


That is not what you said.
Your exact words:

The monetary base is not simply the amount of money that the US government ‘prints’. If a bank makes a profit on an investment, that increases the monetary base.


This is just flat wrong. Period. No way around it WRONG. There comes a point at which debating skills do not replace some combination of actual knowledge, and humility. Welcome to that point.

389 sagehen  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 9:37:28pm

re: #384 lostlakehiker

You should read the wikipedia link. The term “monetary base” has a technical meaning, and you’re using it in an entirely different sense from that technical meaning.

The velocity of money is not figured into any calculation of the numerical value of the “monetary base”.


um… you’re forgetting that we were in a deflationary spiral, home values and other asset values were crashing. Monetary expansion was needed to keep everyone from going underwater on their mortgages… it’s bad enough it’s happened to people who bought at bubble prices, but at least they sort of deserve it and it’s a reasonable market correction; it would be crushingly awful if it also happened to tens of millions of people who bought their homes pre-bubble and have kept up their payments.

390 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 9:59:58pm

re: #389 sagehen

um… you’re forgetting that we were in a deflationary spiral, home values and other asset values were crashing. Monetary expansion was needed to keep everyone from going underwater on their mortgages… it’s bad enough it’s happened to people who bought at bubble prices, but at least they sort of deserve it and it’s a reasonable market correction; it would be crushingly awful if it also happened to tens of millions of people who bought their homes pre-bubble and have kept up their payments.

I’m not saying that this expansion was without justification. I’m saying IT HAPPENED. I’m also saying that if and when money velocity and bank lending pick back up, if they reach the same unreasonable multiple between M0 and M1 or M2 that was in place in 2007 say, we’ll then be facing a huge inflation. The seeds for that inflation have been sown. Now the question is, will they be watered?

Every great inflation in history is accompanied by diversionary tactics. Look at the speculators. Look at the bad weather. Look at this or that falling price. Greedy businessmen. Greedy unions. etc. etc.

So I’m suggesting, look at the prices that move first in an inflation: commodities. Here, the evidence is disturbing. Any one commodity can move because of the weather in Kansas or Florida. But that doesn’t (much) affect the price of cotton, or oil.

Also, I’m not endorsing Kotlikoff’s tax reform. Marginal rates of 22 percent, on top incomes, are not high enough. The right number is more like 35 percent, give or take.

But K. is a serious scholar with a lot of technical expertise in his field. He can’t be all wrong or he wouldn’t enjoy the reputation he does. In liberal circles, I might add, as well as in conservative circles, and in apolitical circles.

391 ElSuerte  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:25:13pm

re: #151 LudwigVanQuixote


e. Massive spread of contagion. Critters migrate with climate shifts into populations without immunities. We had Dengue fucking fever in MIAMI last year.

This is bullshit in respect to dengue fever. Total bullshit. The vector of that virus is a mosquito, aedes aegyptis, which is endemic in Florida. The mosquito’s preferred habitat is warm, between 35 deg N and 35 deg S, below 1000 Ft, and plenty of still water to breed in. This describes Florida well before any global warming.

What likely happened is this: a traveler got infected with dengue abroad, traveled to Florida, and infected the local mosquitoes with the virus. The mosquitoes then passed it on to other people. The CDC found Dengue in 2 of the 407 mosquito pools they tested.

[Link: www.cdc.gov…]

What absolutely did NOT happen is this: Mosquitoes invaded Florida because the globe got warmer and brought Dengue fever with them.

The mosquitoes were already there.

This tendency to over attribute things to global warming is really hurting our case and it will doom us all. I should really do a LGF Page about it

392 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:57:58pm

re: #391 ElSuerte

This is bullshit in respect to dengue fever. Total bullshit. [snip for length]

While I agree that this particular Florida incident might not have anything to do with global warming. It certainly can’t be proven that it didn’t.

There is a correlation between dengue infection and temperature. From the CDC page on the subject:

Dengue viruses are transmitted by Aedes mosquitoes, which are highly sensitive to environmental conditions. Temperature, precipitation, and humidity are critical to mosquito survival, reproduction, and development and can influence mosquito presence and abundance. Additionally, higher temperatures reduce the time required for the virus to replicate and disseminate in the mosquito. This process, referred to as the “extrinsic incubation period,” must occur before the virus can reach the mosquito’s salivary glands and be transmitted to humans. If the mosquito becomes infectious faster because temperatures are warmer, it has a greater chance of infecting a human before it dies.

The range of the vector mosquitoes does depend highly on climate. Dengue getting a foothold in Florida would be bad no matter how it happened. Having vector mosquito populations further north would only aggravate the problem.

393 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:59:04pm

Forgot the link: [Link: www.cdc.gov…]

394 boxhead  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:01:26am

I am always shocked when talking to people who are fully convinced that AGW is a conspiracy by smart people to do something that makes no sense to me. I would be willing to be more skeptical if the consensus was 60% - 40%. But it is like 95%+ consensus! PhDs are not known to agree with their colleagues just because. They actually like exposing faulty research. Now with any science, as new data becomes available, new observations will be made. Voices that differ will be looked at with the same critical eye as long as the research is proper.

The main problem is that people who vote and do not know the scientific method may believe the tripe promoted by news outlets that they think is practically oracle worthy in their pronouncements. Convincing these believers is not an easy task….

*sigh*

395 ElSuerte  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:16:12am

re: #392 prononymous

While I agree that this particular Florida incident might not have anything to do with global warming. It certainly can’t be proven that it didn’t. [I just did-ElSuerte]

There is a correlation between dengue infection and temperature. From the CDC page on the subject:

The range of the vector mosquitoes does depend highly on climate. Dengue getting a foothold in Florida would be bad no matter how it happened. Having vector mosquito populations further north would only aggravate the problem.

Again, I am not sure how tightly coupled one can claim climate is with dengue. The link you post seems to suggest that weather and viral types are more responsible for rates of transmission. Additionally, the link points to epidemics occurring in the US during the forties as far north as Boston, which I would attribute to soldiers returning from dengue regions vis a vis WWII.

As further evidence against the global warming theory of dengue fever I would point to the dengue fever epidemic of 1780 that occurred in Philadelphia right smack in the Little Ice Age.

396 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:32:49am

re: #395 ElSuerte

[I just did-ElSuerte]


Again, I am not sure how tightly coupled one can claim climate is with dengue. The link you post seems to suggest that weather and viral types are more responsible for rates of transmission. Additionally, the link points to epidemics occurring in the US during the forties as far north as Boston, which I would attribute to soldiers returning from dengue regions vis a vis WWII.

As further evidence against the global warming theory of dengue fever I would point to the dengue fever epidemic of 1780 that occurred in Philadelphia right smack in the Little Ice Age.

You have proven nothing of the sort (that the incident had zero to do with AGW). You have shown that there are more factors, and some more important ones, at work here. But you can’t decouple it from the fact that dengue incidence is indeed influenced by climate. It states it plainly as day in the passage I cited.

Unless you were there watching the specific individual vectors at work you can’t say for sure that, for example, the virus would have replicated fast enough in the specific individual vector mosquito before it was predated, etc without warmer temperatures.

You are making a probabilistic argument and then attempting to equate low probability with zero probability.

As for the other incidences of infection, travelers can definitely spread it. But the mosquito population in Philly dies back in the winter. It would be something completely different to have year-round populations of mosquitoes move farther north. The prevalence of Aedes aegypti, the primary host for dengue, is highly dependent on the climate.

397 ElSuerte  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:33:39am

re: #394 boxhead

I am always shocked when talking to people who are fully convinced that AGW is a conspiracy by smart people to do something that makes no sense to me.

It’s undeniable that the science has been hijacked by people for rentseeking or for ideological ends.

For example these subsidized under global warming laws Spanish solar power plants that have been generating power IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FREAKING NIGHT!!!!!!! [Link: www.elmundo.es…]

Care to tell me what the scientific consensus and the scientific method have to say about this miracle break though of modern science?

I am not surprised people are skeptical of the science when they are shown that the ‘solution’ are things like scams and massive wealth transfers. Or blatantly rigged schemes like Kyoto that would do nothing to solve the problem.

398 boxhead  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:38:53am

re: #397 ElSuerte

It’s undeniable that the science has been hijacked by people for rentseeking or for ideological ends.

For example these subsidized under global warming laws Spanish solar power plants that have been generating power IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FREAKING NIGHT!!! [Link: www.elmundo.es…]

Care to tell me what the scientific consensus and the scientific method have to say about this miracle break though of modern science?

I am not surprised people are skeptical of the science when they are shown that the ‘solution’ are things like scams and massive wealth transfers. Or blatantly rigged schemes like Kyoto that would do nothing to solve the problem.

Businesses looking for profit versus pure research… I will take research. No one is getting rich publishing papers for Universities.

399 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:41:25am

re: #397 ElSuerte

I deny it. How does showing that businesses are using loopholes and/or outright fraud to deceive the government and public for the sake of extra profits indicate in any way that the science is flawed?

Sounds more like a case of business corruption and fraud as well as a lack of proper oversight and regulation of them by the government.

400 ElSuerte  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:48:17am

re: #396 prononymous

You have proven nothing of the sort (that the incident had zero to do with AGW). You have shown that there are more factors, and some more important ones, at work here. But you can’t decouple it from the fact that dengue incidence is indeed influenced by climate. It states it plainly as day in the passage I cited.

uhhhh…..

From the article

These associations, however, do not describe the occurrence every few years of major epidemics in these areas, suggesting that long-term climate variability does not regulate long-term patterns in transmission.
———-
Although climate may play a role in changing dengue incidence and distribution, it is one of many factors; given its poor correlation with historical changes in incidence, its role may be minor.

Your source does not appear to supporting your case, ol’ chap.

Mosquito range is controlled by climate
Dengue fever within the mosquito population is independent of climate.
Mosquito bites, and blood and tissue transplants are the only reliable sources of infection.
Mosquitoes acquire the virus from biting an infected human.
The mosquito population in Florida predates AGW.

ERGO We can say that the AGW was not to blame for the dengue episode, because the mosquito range was UNAFFECTED by AGW. They were already there. They only thing that changed was the introduction of the virus. Some thing that can’t be caused by AGW.

401 ElSuerte  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:49:57am

re: #399 prononymous

I deny it. How does showing that businesses are using loopholes and/or outright fraud to deceive the government and public for the sake of extra profits indicate in any way that the science is flawed?

Sounds more like a case of business corruption and fraud as well as a lack of proper oversight and regulation of them by the government.

Think of it like Pamela Geller giving Charles Johnson a bad reputation, and maybe you’ll understand my point.

402 boxhead  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:52:02am

re: #401 ElSuerte

Think of it like Pamela Geller giving Charles Johnson a bad reputation, and maybe you’ll understand my point.

sounds like a bad case of the clap!

403 ElSuerte  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:53:22am

re: #402 boxhead

sounds like a bad case of the clap!

CRAP I’m all out of Braino :(

404 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:56:45am

re: #400 ElSuerte

[snip]
Dengue fever within the mosquito population is independent of climate.
[snip]

From the part you quoted:

it is one of many factors

ERGO, your conclusion is flawed.

re: #401 ElSuerte

Think of it like Pamela Geller giving Charles Johnson a bad reputation, and maybe you’ll understand my point.

Sorry, I don’t follow. Please be more explicit.

405 ElSuerte  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 1:28:35am

re: #404 prononymous

The climate related portions of the article are talking about mosquito population range, which is a separate issue from the virus itself. The only environmental factor pertinent to the virus is temperature, the warmer it is, the shorter it’s incubation time in the mosquito. However, this is a function of weather. Climate being a different thing then weather, right? This does not change the fact that if a mosquito can live there, so can dengue, regardless of how long or short it’s incubation time may be.


As for the other stuff. See guilt by association, also fool me once, etc. I do not think the scientific leaders have distanced themselves enough from the charlatans in the movement. There might not be any ‘there there’ to the deniers claims, IMHO the scientists have not helped themselves, us, or the planet by acting pretty shabbily and in conduct unbecoming of scientists. It is costing us vital credibility at a time when we need it most. Also, Glen Beck/Alex Jones style paranoid rants don’t help either.

Someone one told me that he would believe in global warming when ‘they’ ( I assume he meant the various bureaucrats and politicians backing agw stuff) acted like it was happening. I have to admit, he’s got a point. How could you expect the average joe to take being told he has to give up his light bulbs and pay way more in electricity for carbon taxes, when the UN Climate Delegees emit needless tonnes of carbon for their conference in Cancun instead of teleconferencing or using the Net, and the Obamas, the most AGW aware administration evah in the US conspicuously jet around and burn up a lot of carbon wastefully, instead of taking staycations and conserving. It’s kind of like sermonizing people about their fatass kids while chowing down on ribs and fatty waygu beef. Plank in the eye and all that.

406 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 2:20:16am

re: #405 ElSuerte

The climate related portions of the article are talking about mosquito population range, which is a separate issue from the virus itself. The only environmental factor pertinent to the virus is temperature, the warmer it is, the shorter it’s incubation time in the mosquito. However, this is a function of weather. Climate being a different thing then weather, right? This does not change the fact that if a mosquito can live there, so can dengue, regardless of how long or short it’s incubation time may be.


Climate is weather over time. So while any particular hotter day isn’t evidence of global warming, GW will result in warmer days on average, globally.

The rate at which dengue reproduces is dependent on the temperature. That is stated clearly in the page I linked.

Global warming raises the average temperature.

So unless you can prove for a fact that the average temperature during the dengue outbreak in Florida was completely unaffected by AGW, you can’t rightfully claim AGW has no factor in that outbreak. At best it is indeterminate. Having a low probability of being a factor isn’t the same as not being a factor.

My point is that you are taking what may be a valid inductive argument and turning it into an invalid deductive argument. I’d probably agree if you were to rephrase it in inductive terms. But then again, an inductive argument doesn’t have the same force against LVQ’s original point.

Also, the side point you seem to have missed is that the vector population, Aedes aegypti, is strongly dependent on climate. Even if the Florida outbreak had zero to do with AGW, it could still turn into an issue later if unchecked. AGW would mean the ability of Aedes aegypti to exist year-round farther north than was possible before. Thus the result would be a larger year-round population of the preferred vector species for quite a number of different tropical diseases, not just dengue. And AGW also means more months of population viability in areas still too cold for a permanent population. Thus the amount of time available for mosquitoes to transmit disease is lengthened. You have taken exception to a single point and missed the big picture.

As for guilt by association, or blaming the victim, it is illogical I don’t like it. I would no more blame Charles for Gellar’s hateful ranting then I would blame science and scientists for perversion by business and politics. The science hasn’t been hijacked, it is still as sound as it was before politics/business got involved. It is the political/implementation process that got hijacked.

As for hypocrisy, I don’t like it either. No argument there. I just don’t think that is enough of a reason do to nothing and let the world suffer for it.

407 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 2:21:33am

PS. I’m heading to bed soon so I will continue this discussion tomorrow.

408 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 2:34:39am

re: #388 lostlakehiker

This is just flat wrong. Period. No way around it WRONG. There comes a point at which debating skills do not replace some combination of actual knowledge, and humility. Welcome to that point.

You’re right, I actually meant money supply. My apologies for using the terms wrong.

However, it is still wrong to claim that the monetary base is the money that the government prints in order to pay for things. The only purpose in expanding the monetary base is the purchase of financial securities, not buying tanks, space ships, or lunch for the president. So the statement is still bafflingly wrong.

Continued appeals to authority don’t constitute an argument of any sort.

409 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 2:37:58am

re: #390 lostlakehiker

I love that you’re actually endorsing a Paulian ‘they’re trying to create inflation on purpose’ conspiracy, and simultaneously accusing me of arguing without humility.

Jesus.

410 freetoken  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 2:39:15am

re: #405 ElSuerte

.. and the Obamas, the most AGW aware administration evah in the US conspicuously jet around and burn up a lot of carbon wastefully, instead of taking staycations and conserving. It’s kind of like sermonizing people about their fatass kids while chowing down on ribs and fatty waygu beef.

I figured under all those words the real purpose would be found, buried.

Your just parroting more rightwing rant-points about the President and his wife.

411 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 2:58:10am

re: #410 freetoken

Yeah, and this bit:

As for the other stuff. See guilt by association, also fool me once, etc. I do not think the scientific leaders have distanced themselves enough from the charlatans in the movement.

Nameless ‘charlatans’ in the AGW ‘movement’.

Subtle, he ain’t.

412 boxhead  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 3:05:00am

re: #411 Obdicut

Yeah, and this bit:

Nameless ‘charlatans’ in the AGW ‘movement’.

Subtle, he ain’t.

more like sharpening his skills in FOX Speak… :(

413 Neo_  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 5:15:24am

Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat. Thirty years ago everybody knew if only Israel would recognize a Palestinian state, we would have peace in the Middle East. Ten years ago everybody knew that all Climate Change was due to man made CO2. Three years ago everybody knew that America would be post racial if only we had a Black President, and a year ago everybody knew that Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats would control the House for a generation.
Imagine what you’ll know tomorrow.

414 garhighway  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 5:17:28am

re: #413 Neo_

Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat. Thirty years ago everybody knew if only Israel would recognize a Palestinian state, we would have peace in the Middle East. Ten years ago everybody knew that all Climate Change was due to man made CO2. Three years ago everybody knew that America would be post racial if only we had a Black President, and a year ago everybody knew that Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats would control the House for a generation.
Imagine what you’ll know tomorrow.

We all love Men In Black, but are you implying that Climate Change (I note your avoidance of the term AGW) is NOT due to “man made CO2”?

415 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 5:19:19am

re: #413 Neo_

Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat.

This is totally false. Why do you think this is true?

Ten years ago everybody knew that all Climate Change was due to man made CO2.

This is also a false change. The current warming that we’re experiencing is due to the forcing caused by man-made CO2. Yes. We knew that ten years ago, and we know it now, too.

416 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 5:21:33am

re: #413 Neo_

Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat. Thirty years ago everybody knew if only Israel would recognize a Palestinian state, we would have peace in the Middle East. Ten years ago everybody knew that all Climate Change was due to man made CO2. Three years ago everybody knew that America would be post racial if only we had a Black President, and a year ago everybody knew that Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats would control the House for a generation.
Imagine what you’ll know tomorrow.

I won’t be as civil as Obdicut and will just point out that your claim that “Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat” shows that you’re an ignorant idiot. No need to comment on the rest after that.

417 Kronocide  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 9:08:08am

re: #413 Neo_


And despite clear evidence, people still thought the earth was flat.

And despite clear evidence, people still think the Earth is the center of the universe.

And despite clear evidence, people still think AGW is a farce.

So what is your point? Make one instead of trying to sound wise.

418 Kronocide  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 9:11:50am

re: #415 Obdicut

This is also a false change. The current warming that we’re experiencing is due to the forcing caused by man-made CO2. Yes. We knew that ten years ago, and we know it now, too.

Actually this was predicted 100 years ago, the study of which started in earnest 30 years ago. In the last 10 years we’ve confirmed it to be true. As time goes on, we only reconfirm how true it is and how the effect will play out.

Science is well past proving the theory and into finding out how bad it will be. The current morons who can’t deal with reality are decades behind, if not centuries.

419 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 9:28:15am

re: #413 Neo_

Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat. Thirty years ago everybody knew if only Israel would recognize a Palestinian state, we would have peace in the Middle East. Ten years ago everybody knew that all Climate Change was due to man made CO2. Three years ago everybody knew that America would be post racial if only we had a Black President, and a year ago everybody knew that Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats would control the House for a generation.
Imagine what you’ll know tomorrow.

So the upshot of your comment is:

Science is always changing! Heck! Those scientists don’t know anything! All this AGW stuff might just go away tomorrow! It’s just a fad!

Since you are clearly have no concept of how science works, I’ll try to explain a few things.

Once observations of the physical world are verified, they don’t go away. If you coupe that with the fact that the universe really does follow certain set physical laws, you can make predictions. The trick which people like you seem to have difficulty with is consistent thinking. Consider that those who thought the Earth was flat never went out and measured it. That was non-scientific (though you seem to think it is). Science was going out and measuring it in a number of different ways.

Thermometers don’t lie. They are a rather simple technology. But maybe one thermometer was messed up some how? That is why we take multiple measurements. Millions of thermometers don’t lie. Changing weather patterns don’t lie. Melting glaciers don’t have political parties, they are just melting. Changing migration patterns don’t lie. The birds are not part of political parties. The spectra that directly measure gas concentrations in the atmosphere, don’t lie.

The fact that natural climate change patterns happen on the scale of thousands of years (because of orbital variations) while this is happening in a century is not a lie.

The fact that those orbital variations had us going into a cooling phase, and yet we warmed is not a lie.

The sun has not increased its output.

There have not been more volcanic eruptions.

Yet, CO2 s a potent greenhouse gas. We’ve known this since 1896. We’ve known the underlying physics of why this is since the 30’s. The full IR properties of CO2 in all of its different bands, were extensively studied through the 50’s and 60’s in order to make heat seeking missiles.

And we have been dumping gigatons of CO2 into the atmosphere.

Do you think that would have no effect?

The first people to think this might be a problem were actually around the turn of the last century. The first major report on this being a serious problem from the National Academy was delivered to President Johnson in 1965. The science was secure and sound enough that Margaret Thatcher, an arch conservative, took up the call to make changes before the UN in 1989 and Bush Sr. helped form the IPCC!

But the simple fact is that science is not something that comes and goes or gets tossed out tomorrow. The data are still the data. AGW is real. We are causing it. We know this from over 100 years of investigation. The effects of not changing course will be catastrophic. That is the science. It won’t go away.

420 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 9:40:30am

re: #391 ElSuerte

You did not read your own link did you?

The only way that Dengue gets spread is if a mosquito bites an infected human you claimed?

Mosquitoes acquire the virus from biting an infected human.

Yes you did claim that.

If that were so, and no-one had Dengue, then no mosquito could bite an infected human and ever spread the disease.

You are a moron.

You also are neglecting the spread of Dengue in Italy, France and Spain coming up from Africa.

Yes, infected mosquitoes migrate. If the climate conditions are better for them, then yes, you have more of them for longer. That means more people get bitten.

Now it is true that someone who was infected can get bitten and then the mosquitoes that bit him can bite someone else. If you have more mosquitoes for longer because the climate has changed, then you have more infections by that route also because there is more chance for it to happen.

421 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 9:50:46am

re: #405 ElSuerte

It’s kind of like sermonizing people about their fatass kids while chowing down on ribs and fatty waygu beef.

They’re like parrots. They just can’t help themselves. The talking points get all mixed up, reflecting their mixed-up thought processes, and out comes stupid crap like this.

And he was doing so well trying to sound knowledgeable up to the point where the obsession took over.

422 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 10:09:21am

re: #407 prononymous

PS. I’m heading to bed soon so I will continue this discussion tomorrow.

Excellent job dealing with the troll. Good on you.

Just to give some hard science on the matter, this is from the World Health Organization:

Climate change and human health RISKS AND RESPONSES (2003)

This review was cited 861 times. This is from the preface. The infectious disease information is in chapters 6 and 7.

Note: the nineties were the warmest decade until the 2000’s

The last decade was the warmest since instrumental records began in the nineteenth century, and contained 9 of the 10 warmest years ever recorded. The causes of this change are increasingly well understood. The Third Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, published in 2001, goes further than its predecessors, stating that “There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is likely to be attributable to human activities”, most importantly the release of greenhouse gases from fossil fuels. Stresses on the climate system are already causing impacts on Earth’s surface. These include not only rising surface temperatures, but also increasingly frequent floods and droughts, and changes in natural ecosystems, such as earlier flowering of plants, and poleward shifts in the distribution of several species. All of these changes are inextricably linked to the health of human societies. Climatic conditions affect human well-being both directly, through the physical effects of climatic extremes, and indirectly, through influences on the levels of pollution in the air, on the agricultural, marine and freshwater systems that provide food and water, and on the vectors and pathogens that cause infectious diseases.

[Link: www.who.int…]

And then there is this from the Journal of Health Science a virology viewpoint:

[Link: www.jstage.jst.go.jp…]

And we should note that disease disease vectors kill crops too. From Proceedings of the Royal Society.

Range and severity of a plant disease increased by global warming

Neal Evans, Andreas Baierl, Mikhail A. Semenov, Peter Gladders
and Bruce D. L. Fitt

[Link: www.rothamsted.bbsrc.ac.uk…]

Abstract:

Climate change affects plants in natural and agricultural ecosystems throughout the world but little work has been done on the effects of climate change on plant disease epidemics. To illustrate such effects, a weather-based disease forecasting model was combined with a climate change model predicting UK temperature and rainfall under high- and low-carbon emissions for the 2020s and 2050s. Multi-site data collected over a 15-year period were used to develop and validate a weather-based model forecasting severity of phoma stem canker epidemics on oilseed rape across the UK. This was combined with climate change scenarios to predict that epidemics will not only increase in severity but also spread northwards by the 2020s. These results provide a stimulus to develop models to predict the effects of climate change on other plant diseases, especially in delicately balanced agricultural or natural ecosystems. Such predictions can be used to guide policy and practice in adapting to effects of climate change on food security and wildlife.

423 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 10:16:39am

re: #405 ElSuerte

Wow, I just got to this… So there really is no doubt where you are coming from then. You really think this is all a scientific conspiracy to take away your light bulbs?

It is now not worth trying to explain anything to you.

424 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 10:20:16am

re: #421 Charles

They’re like parrots. They just can’t help themselves. The talking points get all mixed up, reflecting their mixed-up thought processes, and out comes stupid crap like this.

And he was doing so well trying to sound knowledgeable up to the point where the obsession took over.

Only he wasn’t sounding that knowledgeable. Really. He’s the sort who read just enough and cherry picked enough words to be especially foolish.

425 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:32:55am

re: #413 Neo_

Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat. Thirty years ago everybody knew if only Israel would recognize a Palestinian state, we would have peace in the Middle East. Ten years ago everybody knew that all Climate Change was due to man made CO2. Three years ago everybody knew that America would be post racial if only we had a Black President, and a year ago everybody knew that Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats would control the House for a generation.
Imagine what you’ll know tomorrow.

What a load of ignorant bullshit. The first thing that jumps out is that this is a thinly veiled argument from ignorance, a type of logical fallacy.

We don’t know what we will know tomorrow……therefore AGW is wrong? *bzzzzt* wrong. Go back to school and come back here when when you can frame an argument in a way other than a flagrant violation of logical principles.

Secondly, your points are factually invalid, as others have pointed out. People thought the earth was flat because they ignored the evidence and measurements in favor of dogmatism - as you are doing here. By the 6th century BC, B fucking C, Greek philosophers such as Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle (maybe you have heard of them) had already claimed the earth was spherical based on basic observation. And in around 240BC Eratosthenes measured the earth to a remarkable degree using the angle of shadows.

Go get a new education because the one you have now isn’t serving you very well.

426 ElSuerte  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 5:50:34pm

re: #421 Charles

They’re like parrots. They just can’t help themselves. The talking points get all mixed up, reflecting their mixed-up thought processes, and out comes stupid crap like this.

And he was doing so well trying to sound knowledgeable up to the point where the obsession took over.

I was making a point about the importance of leading by example. It is extremely important to do so if people are going to think you’re credible.

A case in point, how can the average guy think of the dangers global warming based on the actions of people in the know. Like Rajendra K. Pachauri the guy in charge of the IPCC who would jet off all the time in a private jet to India for a couple days of cricket practice and back.

You have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

You really need to dump this myopic tendency to dismiss any criticism or reflection as ZOMG!!!111!!!ty RIGHTWINGER TALKING POINTS!!!! It’s stupid, and unproductive, and it just leads to echo chamber disease, and that is not good for any movement.

427 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 5:58:43pm

re: #401 ElSuerte

Think of it like Pamela Geller giving Charles Johnson a bad reputation, and maybe you’ll understand my point.

Yep, I understand.
You’re an idiot.

428 ElSuerte  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:00:40pm

re: #423 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow, I just got to this… So there really is no doubt where you are coming from then. You really think this is all a scientific conspiracy to take away your light bulbs?

It is now not worth trying to explain anything to you.

You fail at reading comprehension. I was merely pointing out the negative effect on the AGW movement that such punitive and unpopular actions have, especially when contrasted which such profligate displays like that Cancun conference. As I said in the above post, one must lead by example. You must walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

429 ElSuerte  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:01:13pm

re: #427 Varek Raith

Yep, I understand.
You’re an idiot.

Feel free to bite me.

430 Kronocide  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:06:40pm

Please tell us how bad Al Gore was for AGW.

431 Kronocide  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:08:27pm
I do not think the scientific leaders have distanced themselves enough from the charlatans in the movement.

What charlatans ElSuerte?

432 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:12:36pm

re: #426 ElSuerte

I was making a point about the importance of leading by example. It is extremely important to do so if people are going to think you’re credible.

So if the Obamas switched all their lightbulbs over to CFL (if they haven’t already) and stopped flying around so much then the whole industry built up around denying the science would just reverse itself and say that not only AGW is real but that we have to take some major steps to curtail it? Rather than just using it as another point to mock them over, and continuing to deny the need for any change?

Get real.

433 austin_blue  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:14:18pm

re: #413 Neo_

Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat. Thirty years ago everybody knew if only Israel would recognize a Palestinian state, we would have peace in the Middle East. Ten years ago everybody knew that all Climate Change was due to man made CO2. Three years ago everybody knew that America would be post racial if only we had a Black President, and a year ago everybody knew that Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats would control the House for a generation.
Imagine what you’ll know tomorrow.

I’ll know that you are still an idiot and a fool. Does it whoosh inside your empty little head when the wind blows? You are a willfully ignorant, useless little pissant.

434 austin_blue  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:19:13pm

re: #407 prononymous

PS. I’m heading to bed soon so I will continue this discussion tomorrow.

Ooh, logical arguments! Look at the big brain on prononymous!

Well done, my man!

435 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:23:49pm

re: #434 austin_blue

I made a deal with the devil. All of my social skills, and soul of course, for a handful of extra neurons.

436 Kronocide  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:26:01pm
A case in point, how can the average guy think of the dangers global warming based on the actions of people in the know. Like Rajendra K. Pachauri the guy in charge of the IPCC who would jet off all the time in a private jet to India for a couple days of cricket practice and back.


The average guy has no idea of who Pachauri is unless he reads about them on rightwinger talking point sights. Do you have any credible information about Mr. Pauchauri’s air travel?

You really need to dump this myopic tendency to dismiss any criticism or reflection as ZOMG!!!111!!!ty RIGHTWINGER TALKING POINTS!!!


Wait… what?

You have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

Indeed.

437 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:32:56pm

ElSuerte, you’ve made a lot of assertions without any evidence save your word.
Care to walk the walk?

438 b_sharp  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:42:17pm

re: #425 prononymous

What a load of ignorant bullshit. The first thing that jumps out is that this is a thinly veiled argument from ignorance, a type of logical fallacy.

We don’t know what we will know tomorrow…therefore AGW is wrong? *bzzzt* wrong. Go back to school and come back here when when you can frame an argument in a way other than a flagrant violation of logical principles.

Secondly, your points are factually invalid, as others have pointed out. People thought the earth was flat because they ignored the evidence and measurements in favor of dogmatism - as you are doing here. By the 6th century BC, B fucking C, Greek philosophers such as Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle (maybe you have heard of them) had already claimed the earth was spherical based on basic observation. And in around 240BC Eratosthenes measured the earth to a remarkable degree using the angle of shadows.

Go get a new education because the one you have now isn’t serving you very well.

He was also mixing ideas without an evidentiary basis with an idea, AGW which does have a basis in evidence in order to poison the well.

439 Kronocide  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:48:41pm

It would be nice if ElSuerte held the same level of accountability to the climate denialists.

440 b_sharp  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:53:16pm

re: #426 ElSuerte

I was making a point about the importance of leading by example. It is extremely important to do so if people are going to think you’re credible.

A case in point, how can the average guy think of the dangers global warming based on the actions of people in the know. Like Rajendra K. Pachauri the guy in charge of the IPCC who would jet off all the time in a private jet to India for a couple days of cricket practice and back.

You have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

You really need to dump this myopic tendency to dismiss any criticism or reflection as ZOMG!!!111!!!ty RIGHTWINGER TALKING POINTS!!! It’s stupid, and unproductive, and it just leads to echo chamber disease, and that is not good for any movement.

It is a radical right trait to ignore cold hard data in favour of accepting or rejecting information based on the personal attributes of the messenger. Contrary to what they may believe, this is an emotional, not logical position.

The requirement that proponents of climate science eschew daily energy use and, say, bicycle to work or avoid using modern transport is a false requirement. What is required is that proponents communicate the science and impress upon society the inevitability of severe problems if our species does not take a different, more intelligent, technological path. What is expected of the denialosphere is that they take the time to learn the science, and deal directly with the data, before shooting their mouths off.

441 b_sharp  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:53:52pm

re: #427 Varek Raith

Yep, I understand.
You’re an idiot.

Short, concise and to the point. Well done.

442 b_sharp  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:54:46pm

re: #435 prononymous

I made a deal with the devil. All of my social skills, and soul of course, for a handful of extra neurons.

I suppose you keep them in a jar beside your bed.

443 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:58:58pm

re: #438 b_sharp

Indeed, there are quite a large number of problems with his post. I thought of several by the time I was done reading the post. But I just addressed two of the major ones to save time. I’m not going to waste my energy and wall-of-text™ writing skills countering his drivel.

re: #439 BigPapa

It would be nice if ElSuerte held the same level of accountability to the climate denialists.

No kidding. He could have something, anything, to say about the mountain of lies from deniers. But instead we get treated to whining over absolutely insignificant points veiled as concern for the credibility movement.

The half the population that doesn’t believe AGW isn’t that way because some politicians fly too much. They are that way because they are constantly exposed to propaganda by about the supposed controversy when no such controversy actually exists within the science.

re: #442 b_sharp

I suppose you keep them in a jar beside your bed.

What good would they do me there? I keep them in my tightly clenched fist.

444 b_sharp  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 7:05:37pm

re: #443 prononymous

Indeed, there are quite a large number of problems with his post. I thought of several by the time I was done reading the post. But I just addressed two of the major ones to save time. I’m not going to waste my energy and wall-of-text™ writing skills countering his drivel.

re: #439 BigPapa

No kidding. He could have something, anything, to say about the mountain of lies from deniers. But instead we get treated to whining over absolutely insignificant points veiled as concern for the credibility movement.

The half the population that doesn’t believe AGW isn’t that way because some politicians fly too much. They are that way because they are constantly exposed to propaganda by about the supposed controversy when no such controversy actually exists within the science.

re: #442 b_sharp

What good would they do me there? I keep them in my tightly clenched fist.

Ah, you have grasped my sense of humour quickly.

445 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 7:11:25pm

re: #444 b_sharp

Ah, you have grasped my sense of humour quickly.

Proof, I suppose, that humor isn’t a social skill.

446 b_sharp  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 7:50:28pm

re: #445 prononymous

Proof, I suppose, that humor isn’t a social skill.

Mine certainly isn’t.

447 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 8:43:30pm

re: #428 ElSuerte

You fail at reading comprehension.

Excuse me. Your parroted right wing talking points were pretty clear, if stupid.

I was merely pointing out the negative effect on the AGW movement that such punitive and unpopular actions have…

No. You started by claiming that spread of contagion being effected by climate change was garbage. Actually you said bullshit. You then got utterly owned when it turned out you had no clue what you were talking about, failed to comprehend your own link and then failed to realize that of course, here on LGF, we back up such things with actual science when challenged. That is where you got owned by the WHO report, the Journal of Public Health paper and such. Care to address the actual science? Of course not.

especially when contrasted which such profligate displays like that Cancun conference.

Ahh yes always shifting to a new talking point as if getting schooled on the last one never happened.

So scientists ought not go to meetings? People around the world are working on this. They have to meet somewhere. Yeah that Cancun conference was a wild ride… let me tell you. Hundreds of scientists presenting data about how billions of lives are in danger. Then there are all the talks about extinctions. And then there are the fun talks about refugees and crop impacts. Flooding of major cities is also a real uplifting discussion.

This is all washed down by the realization of how morons like you help to prevent any useful action and how the situation keeps getting worse.

Real fun times.

As I said in the above post, one must lead by example. You must walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

This is just slimy, condescending and slithery enough to be written by a former poster here named Bagua. It is not a compliment.

448 ElSuerte  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 8:58:06pm

re: #443 prononymous
re: #439 BigPapa

No kidding. He could have something, anything, to say about the mountain of lies from deniers. But instead we get treated to whining over absolutely insignificant points veiled as concern for the credibility movement.

I figure other people here have already talked enough about that. So I figured I should talk about something different. Like it or not, there is a credibility problem with the movement. Read Judith Curry much? It won’t go away just cause you ignore it and whine about denier lies with addressing the problems on our side.

449 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 1, 2011 9:12:14pm

re: #448 ElSuerte

re: #439 BigPapa

No kidding. He could have something, anything, to say about the mountain of lies from deniers. But instead we get treated to whining over absolutely insignificant points veiled as concern for the credibility movement.

I figure other people here have already talked enough about that. So I figured I should talk about something different. Like it or not, there is a credibility problem with the movement. Read Judith Curry much? It won’t go away just cause you ignore it and whine about denier lies with addressing the problems on our side.

Our side?

It is Bagua! How are you? Long time no hear?

Tell me, how have you been? Still miserable that you had no date on Valentines day and spent that whole night hate-blogging. And if it isn’t Bagua, then still miserable you spent the whole of Valentines day hate blogging rather than being with someone? Honestly which of you is it?

Now as to Judith Curry, which of her claims do you think is valid?

She has been thoroughly debunked by the legitimate scientific community and in very harsh terms. So please… make your case.

You asses are always whining for a chance to debate me, so here I am…

Go for it.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 64 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
4 days ago
Views: 165 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1