Tea Party Turns on John Boehner

Boehner the RINO
Wingnuts • Views: 31,704

The Tea Party honeymoon is over for John Boehner.

“You look like a fool,” Tea Party Nation founder Judson Phillips wrote in a post on the group’s website, directing his message at the Ohio Republican. “Charlie Sheen is now making more sense than John Boehner.”

Boehner “did not get the message” from the tea party movement demanding big cuts to federal spending, Phillips said, and “the honeymoon is over.” The movement should respond, he said, by finding “a candidate to run against John Boehner in 2012 and should set as a goal, to defeat in a primary, the sitting Speaker of the House of Representatives.”

Judson Phillips is a full-on crank, in the grand Tea Party tradition; he was previously seen at LGF when he defended bringing loaded weapons to political events.

The Republican Party is riding the teabag tiger, and starting to lose their grip.

Jump to bottom

324 comments
1 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:13:59am

Boehned.

2 HappyWarrior  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:14:57am

Oh Judson, are you really shocked? They used you just like you used them. Hopefully you and Boehner will get to enjoy four more years of President Obama :).

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:15:54am

So...they figured out that he's not technically white?

4 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:16:14am

It's generally best to avoid riding with ultra-extreme wackos if you intend to, at any time, act in an even remotely sensible and responsible manner, such as not cutting half of what the government does all at once.

5 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:16:42am

WASHINGTON BAD! GOVERNMENT BAD! TAX CUTS GOOD! FIRE BAD!

6 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:17:30am

re: #3 EmmmieG

So...they figured out that he's not technically white?

Kinda orange.

7 HappyWarrior  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:18:04am

re: #6 rwdflynavy

Kinda orange.

Kinda? The man could work at Willy Wonka's factory if he so desired to.

8 HappyWarrior  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:19:04am

By the way has a sitting speaker ever been defeated in a primary before? I know that Speakers (Tom Foley) comes to mind as one who lost a general election.

9 Bulworth  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:19:38am

More people must suffer for the teabaggers' ideal nation to be made possible.

10 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:21:06am

re: #9 Bulworth

More people must suffer for the teabaggers' ideal nation to be made possible.

In the teabagger's minds, those that suffer are not people.

11 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:22:28am

re: #7 HappyWarrior

Kinda? The man could work at Willy Wonka's factory if he so desired to.

Ompa-lompa dompa-dee-do
I've got a friendly warning for you
What do you get when you polarize your base?
Crazy people in power and egg on your face!

12 Interesting Times  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:22:52am

re: #3 EmmmieG

So...they figured out that he's not technically white?

Who has the more orange pair of legs? ;)

Image: 316px-Bigbirdnewversion.png

Image: John_Boehner_golf.jpg

13 Kragar  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:24:07am

Gee, I totally did not see the Tea Party turning on the GOP.

///

14 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:25:19am

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Gee, I totally did not see the Tea Party turning on the GOP.

///

//Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

15 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:26:10am

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Gee, I totally did not see the Tea Party turning on the GOP.

///

I'm kinda worried about the Tea Party turning *into* the GOP (Well, more than it already has).

16 garhighway  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:26:15am

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

17 Girth  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:27:16am

re: #7 HappyWarrior

Kinda? The man could work at Willy Wonka's factory if he so desired to.

John Boehner (R - Loompa Land)

18 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:29:03am

And here we see the plutocrats are losing control of the populist theocrstic base.

The question is:

Will the Teabags find that charismatic leader from out of nowhere to completely galvanize them?

Or,

Will the plutocrats remain in control?

Or,

Will the plutocrats over reach and find and pimp a charismatic leader in the false belief that person can be controlled?

19 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:30:23am

The Tea Party commands a solid ~20% of the vote, the GOP has decided tht they need to keep them in the fold. They do not understand that keeping these nuts happy could easily cost them that much support (or more) from the center.

20 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:30:36am

re: #18 LudwigVanQuixote

And here we see the plutocrats are losing control of the populist theocrstic base.

The question is:

Will the Teabags find that charismatic leader from out of nowhere to completely galvanize them?

Or,

Will the plutocrats remain in control?

Or,

Will the plutocrats over reach and find and pimp a charismatic leader in the false belief that person can be controlled?

Given that the defacto leader of the Tea Party movement is Sarah Palin, I'll take Option 3 for $2000 Alex....

21 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:31:20am

re: #18 LudwigVanQuixote

And here we see the plutocrats are losing control of the populist theocrstic base.

The question is:

Will the Teabags find that charismatic leader from out of nowhere to completely galvanize them?

Or,

Will the plutocrats remain in control?

Or,

Will the plutocrats over reach and find and pimp a charismatic leader in the false belief that person can be controlled?

I have rather serious concerns that options 1 and 3 are highly likely.

22 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:31:23am

re: #15 Simply Sarah

I'm kinda worried about the Tea Party turning *into* the GOP (Well, more than it already has).

That is the real question.

At this point, I don't see how that can be avoided without a major party split.

23 garhighway  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:32:01am

Whoa:

Rasmussen says that Walker is losing the battle for public opinion.

Rasmussen. If even they say that, then you know it's beyond dispute.

[Link: www.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

And the age splits are interesting. It used to be that younger voters were less pro-union, but that seems to be changing.

24 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:32:14am

re: #18 LudwigVanQuixote

Will the plutocrats over reach and find and pimp a charismatic leader in the false belief that person can be controlled?

They did that once a few decades ago in a a country in Europe and it all went horribly wrong. But I shall not mention the name of the country or the leader, as I do not want to make those sort of comparisons...

25 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:32:48am

re: #21 Simply Sarah

I have rather serious concerns that options 1 and 3 are highly likely.

Well we can at look at industrialist support, and propping up of the fringe National Socialists and their quest for control of the German government for a parallel.

26 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:33:56am

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

That is the real question.

At this point, I don't see how that can be avoided without a major party split.

Well, it *is* possible that an uneasy alliance could hold in place, with neither group really running things (Sort of like what's going on now, but just with things being a bit cooler). How long that kind of thing could last is hard to say, but it's not unheard of.

27 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:34:09am

re: #24 ralphieboy

They did that once a few decades ago in a a country in Europe and it all went horribly wrong. But I shall not mention the name of the country or the leader, as I do not want to make those sort of comparisons...

Yes, but people with brains on really should look at the many obvious parallels, and not be afraid to point them out.

28 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:36:31am

re: #26 Simply Sarah

Well, it *is* possible that an uneasy alliance could hold in place, with neither group really running things (Sort of like what's going on now, but just with things being a bit cooler). How long that kind of thing could last is hard to say, but it's not unheard of.

Such a thing can last until the primaries at the longest.

Then the daggers come out.

What will likely happen is even more weasly shifting to the far right from teh GOP powers that be, until that becomes "normal." This is likely because we let Rupert Murdoch control all the media these people read. From Fox News to WSJ it is wall to wall propaganda.

It will be a fight between the old guard and whomever Murdoch decides to pimp.

29 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:36:35am

This on MSNBC. A bill to make women subject to the death penalty for maiscarriages. I am gobsmacked:

MSNBC Video

This is beyond a sick joke.

30 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:38:16am

re: #29 ralphieboy

This on MSNBC. A bill to make women subject to the death penalty for maiscarriages. I am gobsmacked:

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

This is beyond a sick joke.

//Clearly this shows the GOP's dedication to creating jobs in our wounded economy... after all think about how many police officers/detectives it will take to investigate each and every miscarriage!

31 BishopX  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:38:46am

re: #28 LudwigVanQuixote

America should take a note of what happening in Italy. When the head of the government has media control, it becomes very hard to stop them.

32 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:39:08am

re: #27 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, but people with brains on really should look at the many obvious parallels, and not be afraid to point them out.

I'm a bit wary of making those comparisons, if only because that tends to cause the entire discussion to derail into "Road to American Nazism: Yes or No" and people often get defensive and become even more difficult to reason with. Sometimes calling a spade a spade doesn't get the best results, I've found. I can't say it doesn't make me uncomfortable dancing around that sort of thing, but diplomacy can be a messy game.

33 BishopX  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:41:28am

re: #30 jamesfirecat

//Clearly this shows the GOP's dedication to creating jobs in our wounded economy... after all think about how many police officers/detectives it will take to investigate each and every miscarriage!

//not only that, but once they abolish the EPA and no one enforces the clean water act, all the chemically induced miscarriages will further stimulate the economy!

34 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:41:32am

"The Republican Party is riding the teabag tiger, and starting to lose their grip"

I just love the imagery in this. Hee!

35 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:41:54am

re: #31 BishopX

America should take a note of what happening in Italy. When the head of the government has media control, it becomes very hard to stop them.

To be fair, it's not just the media control that's doing it. It's that, for some reason I can't quite fathom, a lot Italians seem to be OK with all of Berlusconi's nonsense. I mean, yes, him basically controlling the entire major media players is part of it, for sure, but there seems to be more to it than that.

36 Charles Johnson  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:44:11am

Wow. I just finished watching that video from Yorba Linda. Truly horrible.

The context is that the speakers for this event really are extremists. Amir Abdel Malik Ali is an open supporter of terrorism; I've posted several videos here showing him saying absolutely disgusting things. And Siraj Wahhaj, although he has toned down his rhetoric in recent years, also has a long history of encouraging militant Islamic ideology.

But no context can excuse what those protesters did. That was an open display of pure hatred, and it made me nauseous. And when these Neanderthals behave this way, they make it easier for people like Malik Ali to get away with what they're doing; they give the extremists cover.

The so-called 'anti-jihad movement' has become a movement of unadulterated bigotry, often driven by fundamentalist Christian fanaticism.

37 Bulworth  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:44:13am
Phillips said, and “the honeymoon is over.”

Oh I don't know. Have we heard yet from Tea Party Express? How about Tea Party Patriots? Have we heard from the People's Tea Party Front or the Tea Party Front of America? Gawd I hate the People's Front of Tea Party.

38 BishopX  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:44:50am

re: #35 Simply Sarah

I really wish I knew what that "more" was. Modern Italy confuses me.

39 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:45:08am

re: #37 Bulworth

Oh I don't know. Have we heard yet from Tea Party Express? How about Tea Party Patriots? Have we heard from the People's Tea Party Front or the Tea Party Front of America? Gawd I hate the People's Front of Tea Party.

SPLITTERS!

40 Lidane  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:45:31am

re: #6 rwdflynavy

Kinda orange.

That's not a normal shade of orange. It's "I rolled around in a vat of Doritos/Cheetos dust to get this way" orange.

41 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:45:54am

re: #32 Simply Sarah

I'm a bit wary of making those comparisons, if only because that tends to cause the entire discussion to derail into "Road to American Nazism: Yes or No" and people often get defensive and become even more difficult to reason with. Sometimes calling a spade a spade doesn't get the best results, I've found. I can't say it doesn't make me uncomfortable dancing around that sort of thing, but diplomacy can be a messy game.

Kind of agree.

There are a lot of attitudes re-emerging from an earlier era that were main placed in aspects of American society - and i don't think it's Naziism.

The poster who used the photo of school desegregation in the last thread hit, i think, the nail pretty much on the head. Whats happeneing is to it's very core American, it's an America people like to forget existed, but still simmers closer to the top than people like to think.

42 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:46:56am

re: #23 garhighway

Whoa:

Rasmussen says that Walker is losing the battle for public opinion.

Rasmussen. If even they say that, then you know it's beyond dispute.

[Link: www.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

And the age splits are interesting. It used to be that younger voters were less pro-union, but that seems to be changing.

I've been watching the wingnuts at Hot Air reacting to the polls. With the Rassmuessen poll they are claiming that the results are faulty because the question was phased as "collective bargaining rights". By calling them "rights" biased the results.

43 Girth  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:48:21am

The Tea Party has always been nothing more than the right wing of the GOP with a bullhorn and a cable news channel.

The Tea Party is the expression of the ideas of people like Erick, son of Erick who believe that the "real" America is conservative and that the only way for the GOP to win is to have a never-ending circle-jerk over who is a "real conservative" and who can fill the giant-sized jockstrap that we've made ourselves believe that Ronald Reagan was wearing right before he bent Gorbachev over the Berlin Wall and put his Peacemaker right into Gorby's Red Square. They live in their own world conveniently devoid of pesky nuisances like facts and they will only get louder as they don't get their way.

They will not go away until we have an adult conversation about how to address not only our problems but also their causes, because when that happens the sane part of the country will tell them to STFD and STFU because the grown-ups are talking now.

44 Max  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:50:24am

Boehner and his subordinates couldn't even muster $100 billion in spending cuts. That's a little 6.06% of this year's deficit. He deserves every bit of ridicule he gets, and then some.

The Republican majority was elected to cut down big government, and instead they've launched a full on assault on abortion rights and are aiming to make the government so big that it can monitor every pregnancy in the country.

45 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:50:40am

re: #42 Killgore Trout

I've been watching the wingnuts at Hot Air reacting to the polls. With the Rassmuessen poll they are claiming that the results are faulty because the question was phased as "collective bargaining rights". By calling them "rights" biased the results.

See, I'm not sure I'd simply view Rasmussen as right-leaning. I mean, sure, they tend to be that way, but I think that it might be more accurate to see them as, well, kinda inaccurate. In general, I take most any poll from them with a pretty large grain of salt, regardless of which way it seems to lean.

46 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:50:58am

re: #44 Max D. Reinhardt

Boehner and his subordinates couldn't even muster $100 billion in spending cuts. That's a little 6.06% of this year's deficit. He deserves every bit of ridicule he gets, and then some.

The Republican majority was elected to cut down big government, and instead they've launched a full on assault on abortion rights and are aiming to make the government so big that it can monitor every pregnancy in the country.


Out of the boardroom and into your womb.........

47 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:51:12am

re: #40 Lidane

That's not a normal shade of orange. It's "I rolled around in a vat of Doritos/Cheetos dust to get this way" orange.

Sounds like you need a new hobby//

48 BishopX  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:51:51am

re: #41 wozzablog

Fascism wasn't just a European movement, and it didn't get unpopular around here until the WW2 propaganda started up.

I don't think that we (Americans) have every really dealt with some of the stuff we did in the early twentieth century. No one talks about the occupation of the Philippines, the Palmer raids, the sedition act or the immigration "reforms" of the 1920s. School textbooks still talk about the "return to normalcy" like it was a good thing.

49 Lidane  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:51:54am

re: #29 ralphieboy

This on MSNBC. A bill to make women subject to the death penalty for maiscarriages. I am gobsmacked:

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Not surprising. The anti-abortion nutjobs will go to any length to punish women for not carrying a baby to term, even if she loses a pregnancy through no fault of her own. Women only have one purpose for these fanatics. They're just incubators, not people.

It's why they'll call a fetus as a "witness" to testify instead of the woman carrying said fetus. Women don't matter to them.

This is beyond a sick joke.

It's a perfect distillation of the modern "pro-life" movement. Zygotes > women, and if a baby dies, even if it's a natural death, the woman is obviously at fault.

Ask the same person proposing that bill, and I'll bet money they also oppose birth control and family planning services too. It's blatant misogyny and concern trolling about "life" and nothing more.

50 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:52:14am

re: #36 Charles

The context is that the speakers for this event really are extremists. Amir Abdel Malik Ali is an open supporter of terrorism; I've posted several videos here showing him saying absolutely disgusting things. And Siraj Wahhaj, although he has toned down his rhetoric in recent years, also has a long history of encouraging militant Islamic ideology.

But no context can excuse what those protesters did. That was an open display of pure hatred, and it made me nauseous. And when these Neanderthals behave this way, they make it easier for people like Malik Ali to get away with what they're doing; they give the extremists cover.

That is certainly my take on this. I think pretty much everyone else's here too.

51 recusancy  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:52:24am

re: #45 Simply Sarah

See, I'm not sure I'd simply view Rasmussen as right-leaning. I mean, sure, they tend to be that way, but I think that it might be more accurate to see them as, well, kinda inaccurate. In general, I take most any poll from them with a pretty large grain of salt, regardless of which way it seems to lean.

They always skew right. It gets Mr Rasmussen on tv (Fox). It's good business.

52 mr.fusion  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:52:37am
Youtube Video
53 Max  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:53:32am

I've been telling people the same thing for two years: the Tea Party is a major shakedown. They're not going to cut spending, they're not going to reform entitlements, and they are not going to repeal Obamacare.

The Republican Party will hold Obamacare over the heads of the GOP voters for decades, just like they've done with abortion. It's amazing that people will fall for the same tricks over and over again.

54 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:53:39am

They should have protested the speakers at the event. Screaming, "Go Home!" came across as protesting the ethnicity/nationality of the people attending the event, not the politics of the speakers.

55 Lidane  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:55:04am

re: #53 Max D. Reinhardt

I've been telling people the same thing for two years: the Tea Party is a major shakedown. They're not going to cut spending, they're not going to reform entitlements, and they are not going to repeal Obamacare.

The Republican Party will hold Obamacare over the heads of the GOP voters for decades, just like they've done with abortion. It's amazing that people will fall for the same tricks over and over again.

The Tea Party is nothing but the same incoherent bullshit right-wing populism that Perot peddled back in 1992. The same idiots falling for it now fell for it then. They haven't learned a damned thing at all.

56 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:55:07am

re: #51 recusancy

They always skew right. It gets Mr Rasmussen on tv (Fox). It's good business.

Well, this type of polling is different from a lot of what they did for the election. What *might* be helpful could be to look at how their numbers change if they repeat this polling in the future.

57 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:55:19am

re: #50 LudwigVanQuixote

That is certainly my take on this. I think pretty much everyone else's here too.

Lowest common denominators.

They are all a microcosm of what is wrong with political agendas today.

58 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:57:29am

re: #53 Max D. Reinhardt

I've been telling people the same thing for two years: the Tea Party is a major shakedown. They're not going to cut spending, they're not going to reform entitlements, and they are not going to repeal Obamacare.

The Republican Party will hold Obamacare over the heads of the GOP voters for decades, just like they've done with abortion. It's amazing that people will fall for the same tricks over and over again.

The problem is that Obama care isn't some abstract immoral thing that other people are doing, if Obmacare works the way its intended it will help a lot of people, I think the GOP is afraid that the more people experience Obamacare the more they'll like it just like Social Security and Medicare...

59 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:57:48am

re: #53 Max D. Reinhardt

I've been telling people the same thing for two years: the Tea Party is a major shakedown. They're not going to cut spending, they're not going to reform entitlements, and they are not going to repeal Obamacare.

The Republican Party will hold Obamacare over the heads of the GOP voters for decades, just like they've done with abortion. It's amazing that people will fall for the same tricks over and over again.

I think Rubert Murdoch, Glenn Beck and Rush limbaugh have an interest in keeping the Tea Party and Republicans batshit insane and unrealistic. Their ratings and influence have never been greater. They are making money hand over fist. The need Obama in the white house as long as possible because it's making them lots and lots of money.

60 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:58:29am

BTW, I had an Asian friend have screamed at her "Go Home!" by a nutjob while I was standing near her.

She still lives here (she was raised in Taiwan and Texas both and now lives in Texas) and is a contributing part of our society. He was a sociopathic homeless junkie. While I don't normally like to classify people by their usefulness to society, it was hard to understand why he thought he had the right to tell anyone to leave the US. What gave him the right? His white skin?

Obviously, this bugged me.

Also, he told her to go back to Korea.

Yes, I can back up all of those adjectives.

61 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:59:46am

re: #59 Killgore Trout

I think Rubert Murdoch, Glenn Beck and Rush limbaugh have an interest in keeping the Tea Party and Republicans batshit insane and unrealistic. Their ratings and influence have never been greater. They are making money hand over fist. The need Obama in the white house as long as possible because it's making them lots and lots of money.

And because the crazier the right wing gets the more it is rejected by the mainstream and thus the more unlikely they are to be able to get a president elected they insure the GOP remains the perpetual "oppressed" underdog.

Quite a racket isn't it?

62 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:02:16am

re: #60 EmmmieG

BTW, I had an Asian friend have screamed at her "Go Home!" by a nutjob while I was standing near her.

She still lives here (she was raised in Taiwan and Texas both and now lives in Texas) and is a contributing part of our society. He was a sociopathic homeless junkie. While I don't normally like to classify people by their usefulness to society, it was hard to understand why he thought he had the right to tell anyone to leave the US. What gave him the right? His white skin?

Obviously, this bugged me.

Also, he told her to go back to Korea.

Yes, I can back up all of those adjectives.

About 20 years ago I had an Asian co-worker who told me he was from "The South."

I asked, "South Korea or South Vietnam?"

He said, "South Carolina!"

63 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:03:16am

re: #61 jamesfirecat

And because the crazier the right wing gets the more it is rejected by the mainstream and thus the more unlikely they are to be able to get a president elected they insure the GOP remains the perpetual "oppressed" underdog.

Quite a racket isn't it?

Yup. I think a lot of this is manufactured insanity to manipulate wingnuts. Wining elections for Republicans is the last thing Fox news wants.

64 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:03:17am

re: #58 jamesfirecat

The problem is that Obama care isn't some abstract immoral thing that other people are doing, if Obmacare works the way its intended it will help a lot of people, I think the GOP is afraid that the more people experience Obamacare the more they'll like it just like Social Security and Medicare...

You make a very valid point. If Obama care works as intended it will be regarded as keystone event in American history.

That said, there remain the issues of how to pay for it and the best way to implement the program. Those are my concerns.

I like the idea of universal health care, but I do wish it would be phased in, over time. That way, any kinks and unforeseen problems could be addressed and worked out and how to pay for it all wouldn't be a crap shoot.

65 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:03:33am

re: #62 Alouette

About 20 years ago I had an Asian co-worker who told me he was from "The South."

I asked, "South Korea or South Vietnam?"

He said, "South Carolina!"

One of my favorite Doctor Who quotes:

"If you're from another planet, how come you sound like you're from the North?"

"Lots of planets have a North."

66 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:03:39am

The Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate have voted 19-0 (funny that) to have the missing Democrats arrested.

[Link: host.madison.com...]

I just sent this email to the Senate Majority Leader because of this:

Senator,

I am proud of my Senator, Mark Miller. I am proud to have voted for him.

Your attempts at intimidation of the Senate and the people rightfully protesting against the folly of the Governors so called budget are disgusting.

You are the one who is held in contempt by decent Wisconsin citizens for your nepotism, greed & attempts to destroy this state and turn it into a third world hell hole like Mississippi.

History will not be kind to you and your cronies.

67 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:04:14am

re: #63 Killgore Trout

Yup. I think a lot of this is manufactured insanity to manipulate wingnuts. Wining elections for Republicans is the last thing Fox news wants.

Lots of truth to that.

68 RadicalModerate  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:04:58am

re: #59 Killgore Trout

I think Rubert Murdoch, Glenn Beck and Rush limbaugh have an interest in keeping the Tea Party and Republicans batshit insane and unrealistic. Their ratings and influence have never been greater. They are making money hand over fist. The need Obama in the white house as long as possible because it's making them lots and lots of money.

Actually, that isn't entirely accurate.
FoxNews' ratings have been on a steady decline, and as of the last month's ratings reports, Glenn Becks' ratings are falling. Fast.

[Link: www.businessinsider.com...]

Year over year he posted the biggest loss of any cable news show averaging 1.8 million viewers, down 39% from January 2010. In 25-54 demo he dropped 48%, to 397,000.

Becks ratings have been struggling all month. And by struggling we mean he as been consistently below the 2 million total viewers mark. A first.

69 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:06:22am

re: #62 Alouette

About 20 years ago I had an Asian co-worker who told me he was from "The South."

I asked, "South Korea or South Vietnam?"

He said, "South Carolina!"

I think I'm getting red even thinking about that.

70 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:06:40am

re: #64 researchok

You make a very valid point. If Obama care works as intended it will be regarded as keystone event in American history.

That said, there remain the issues of how to pay for it and the best way to implement the program. Those are my concerns.

I like the idea of universal health care, but I do wish it would be phased in, over time. That way, any kinks and unforeseen problems could be addressed and worked out and how to pay for it all wouldn't be a crap shoot.

Well single payer would obviously be my way of doing it since this is a tested idea that other countries have implemented before, and given how simple it is, the system wouldn't require too much in the way of oversight.

Of course single payer== More Tax && single payer == SOCIALISM which is why we've ended up with the patchwork creature of Obamacare instead....

71 JEA62  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:10:10am

No matter what they do they won't be able to satisfy the rabid-dog folks.

I wonder when the GOP will start repudiating the Tea Party? I'm guessing it's going to be coming soon.

Am I reading events wrong, or has the GOP's veering off to the far-right been killing them thus far?

72 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:11:38am

re: #70 jamesfirecat

Well single payer would obviously be my way of doing it since this is a tested idea that other countries have implemented before, and given how simple it is, the system wouldn't require too much in the way of oversight.

Of course single payer== More Tax && single payer == SOCIALISM which is why we've ended up with the patchwork creature of Obamacare instead...

UK single payer - flat co-pay on drugs of £7.50. I can see a physio for less money than the co-pay on most American health plans. Optometists and dentists are subsidised.

All for 30% less per head than the american system - for 100% coverage.

73 celticdragon  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:12:18am

re: #18 LudwigVanQuixote

And here we see the plutocrats are losing control of the populist theocrstic base.

The question is:

Will the Teabags find that charismatic leader from out of nowhere to completely galvanize them?

Or,

Will the plutocrats remain in control?

Or,

Will the plutocrats over reach and find and pimp a charismatic leader in the false belief that person can be controlled?

History says they will go for curtain number three and fail miserably when populist leader yanks the carpet from out under the plutocrats.

74 blueraven  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:12:36am

re: #68 RadicalModerate

Actually, that isn't entirely accurate.
FoxNews' ratings have been on a steady decline, and as of the last month's ratings reports, Glenn Becks' ratings are falling. Fast.

[Link: www.businessinsider.com...]

Even so, 2 million is an incredibly high number for cable news, especially in his time slot.

75 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:13:18am

re: #71 JEA62

No matter what they do they won't be able to satisfy the rabid-dog folks.

I wonder when the GOP will start repudiating the Tea Party? I'm guessing it's going to be coming soon.

Am I reading events wrong, or has the GOP's veering off to the far-right been killing them thus far?

There is little doubt in my mind that if the GOP had not gone all "teabaggy" and had reached out to independents they would control the Senate as well as the House. Instead they fielded candidates like Engle and Witchipoo.

76 Girth  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:13:40am

re: #72 wozzablog

UK single payer - flat co-pay on drugs of £7.50. I can see a physio for less money than the co-pay on most American health plans. Optometists and dentists are subsidised.

All for 30% less per head than the american system - for 100% coverage.

DEATH PANELZ!!11!

or something...

77 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:13:57am

re: #34 iceweasel

"The Republican Party is riding the teabag tiger, and starting to lose their grip"

I just love the imagery in this. Hee!

Oolong can they hold on?

78 webevintage  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:14:16am

re: #72 wozzablog

UK single payer - flat co-pay on drugs of £7.50. I can see a physio for less money than the co-pay on most American health plans. Optometists and dentists are subsidised.

All for 30% less per head than the american system - for 100% coverage.

but but BUT you have to WAIT to see someone and people DIE waiting and Drs. in the UK health system make MISTAKES and they let Grandma DIE and....
//

79 SpaceJesus  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:15:05am

lol the ron birch party strikes again

80 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:15:15am

re: #75 rwdflynavy

There is little doubt in my mind that if the GOP had not gone all "teabaggy" and had reached out to independents they would control the Senate as well as the House. Instead they fielded candidates like Engle and Witchipoo.

The house was won inspite of teabaggery and the senate was lost because of it.

81 Interesting Times  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:16:07am

re: #66 wlewisiii

The Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate have voted 19-0 (funny that) to have the missing Democrats arrested.

[Link: host.madison.com...]

I just sent this email to the Senate Majority Leader because of this:

Senator,

I am proud of my Senator, Mark Miller. I am proud to have voted for him.

Your attempts at intimidation of the Senate and the people rightfully protesting against the folly of the Governors so called budget are disgusting.

You are the one who is held in contempt by decent Wisconsin citizens for your nepotism, greed & attempts to destroy this state and turn it into a third world hell hole like Mississippi.

I really shouldn't be laughing at that, but can't help it :)

82 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:16:10am

re: #77 oaktree

Oolong can they hold on?

Aren't you just the darjeeling of this thread?//

83 celticdragon  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:16:14am

re: #24 ralphieboy

They did that once a few decades ago in a a country in Europe and it all went horribly wrong. But I shall not mention the name of the country or the leader, as I do not want to make those sort of comparisons...

Actually it happened twice, both in unknown southern European peninsula country number one and in unknown industrialized and well armed European country number two. In both cases, the ruling coalition thought the wackos would bring votes but still be manageable.

84 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:16:15am

re: #78 webevintage

but but BUT you have to WAIT to see someone and people DIE waiting and Drs. in the UK health system make MISTAKES and they let Grandma DIE and...
//

Yeah! Remember: Stephen Hawking would be dead if he had to rely on the UK health care system!
/

85 blueraven  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:17:54am

re: #23 garhighway

Whoa:

Rasmussen says that Walker is losing the battle for public opinion.

Rasmussen. If even they say that, then you know it's beyond dispute.

[Link: www.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

And the age splits are interesting. It used to be that younger voters were less pro-union, but that seems to be changing.

In tea party parlance: Can you hear us now Governor Walker?

86 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:18:00am

re: #84 Simply Sarah

Yeah! Remember: Stephen Hawking would be dead if he had to rely on the UK health care system!
/


*THAT* was my absolute favourite.

87 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:19:53am

re: #70 jamesfirecat

Well single payer would obviously be my way of doing it since this is a tested idea that other countries have implemented before, and given how simple it is, the system wouldn't require too much in the way of oversight.

Of course single payer== More Tax && single payer == SOCIALISM which is why we've ended up with the patchwork creature of Obamacare instead...

Single payer is the way many countries go but in the it isn't ideal (Canada and the UK, for example) with lesser services- and may say quality of care- now the rule of thumb. That's why I like Obama's one size does not fit all idea, allowing the states to craft their own versions (as in populated states versus less populated states having different needs). I believe acknowledging single truth will help get him re elected. That both sides are curiously silent tells me he hit the mark.

Also, the original idea was to make sure 33 million uninsured had access to health care.

I do wonder if we wouldn't have been better offer starting with insurance reform, disallowing insurance companies from offering coverage to anyone. From there we could have moved on to health care reform, absolutely necessary given demographic trends.

What bothers me most is how both sides want to reduce the conversation to slogans as opposed to having a serious discussion.

Have you seen the LGF page on ideas for health care reform? Some really good stuff in there.

88 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:21:54am

re: #81 publicityStunted

I really shouldn't be laughing at that, but can't help it :)

It's a common bit of hyperbola up here that isn't all that funny when you look close at education, infrastructure & social & legal justice in Mississippi. It might as well be in some parts of the third world.

89 iossarian  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:22:14am

re: #87 researchok

Insurance companies don't deny high-risk people coverage.

They just charge them a trillion dollars a year for it.

The concept of health insurance makes no sense at all, when you actually think carefully about it.

90 celticdragon  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:22:38am

re: #36 Charles

Do you have a link to the video?

91 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:23:17am

re: #88 wlewisiii

It's a common bit of hyperbola up here that isn't all that funny when you look close at education, infrastructure & social & legal justice in Mississippi. It might as well be in some parts of the third world.

You could say the same thing about Detroit.

92 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:23:49am

re: #73 celticdragon

History says they will go for curtain number three and fail miserably when populist leader yanks the carpet from out under the plutocrats.

Indeed.

The next question is if the Dems will be in any shape to properly oppose them.

93 Stanghazi  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:24:21am

re: #90 celticdragon

Do you have a link to the video?

Youtube Video

There's also a featured page.

94 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:24:24am

re: #91 Alouette

You could say the same thing about Detroit.

Not really.

95 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:24:36am

Could it be that these poor saps really thought the GOP would just hop to it for them?

96 stevemcg  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:25:22am

re: #90 celticdragon

Do you have a link to the video?

[Link: digbysblog.blogspot.com...]

If this is the one he's talking about.

97 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:25:26am

re: #87 researchok

with lesser services- and may say quality of care- now the rule of thumb.

But this isn't actually true. Why do you think it is?

The time to see a general practitioner in single-payer systems is less. for most, than in the US, and the care give by GPs is better. The time to see a specialist in the US is less than most-- but we're still not the leader.

And in terms of quality, we're not the best by a number of measures.

[Link: theincidentaleconomist.com...]

Image: HPE-Quality-2011.044.jpg

Image: HPE-Quality-2011.42.042.jpg

What is your basis for saying that care in single-payer countries is worse, and that there are 'lesser services'?


I do wonder if we wouldn't have been better offer starting with insurance reform, disallowing insurance companies from offering coverage to anyone. From there we could have moved on to health care reform, absolutely necessary given demographic trends.

The problem is that health insurance is a naturally broken market. There is no incentive at all for a health insurance company to insure, or to provide benefits for, an actually sick person, at least not without making their insurance incredibly expensive.

This makes it different than other forms of insurance. The free market behaves very badly in naturally broken markets.

98 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:25:42am

re: #87 researchok

Single payer is the way many countries go but in the it isn't ideal (Canada and the UK, for example) with lesser services- and may say quality of care- now the rule of thumb. That's why I like Obama's one size does not fit all idea, allowing the states to craft their own versions (as in populated states versus less populated states having different needs). I believe acknowledging single truth will help get him re elected. That both sides are curiously silent tells me he hit the mark.

Also, the original idea was to make sure 33 million uninsured had access to health care.

I do wonder if we wouldn't have been better offer starting with insurance reform, disallowing insurance companies from offering coverage to anyone. From there we could have moved on to health care reform, absolutely necessary given demographic trends.

What bothers me most is how both sides want to reduce the conversation to slogans as opposed to having a serious discussion.

Have you seen the LGF page on ideas for health care reform? Some really good stuff in there.

Honestly? The "health insurance" industry needs to go in general. Why? Because most of what Americans seem to feel should be covered by health insurance, quite simply, cannot be insured. Regular checkups, treatment for known chronic conditions, etc. are all basically known, largely fixed costs. Pretty much the only way you can have a system of insurance is to make it so: 1. People with any pre-existing conditions can be declined. 2. Risk very high premiums because those who feel they need coverage tend to be highest risk.

You know, a system like it has been.

99 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:25:42am

re: #91 Alouette

You could say the same thing about Detroit.

That place is turning around. Eminem says so. Also, I heard they are getting a Robocop statue! If that doesn't fix things, I don't know what will!!//

100 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:25:48am

re: #87 researchok

Single payer is the way many countries go but in the it isn't ideal (Canada and the UK, for example) with lesser services- and may say quality of care- now the rule of thumb. That's why I like Obama's one size does not fit all idea, allowing the states to craft their own versions (as in populated states versus less populated states having different needs). I believe acknowledging single truth will help get him re elected. That both sides are curiously silent tells me he hit the mark.

Also, the original idea was to make sure 33 million uninsured had access to health care.

I do wonder if we wouldn't have been better offer starting with insurance reform, disallowing insurance companies from offering coverage to anyone. From there we could have moved on to health care reform, absolutely necessary given demographic trends.

What bothers me most is how both sides want to reduce the conversation to slogans as opposed to having a serious discussion.

Have you seen the LGF page on ideas for health care reform? Some really good stuff in there.

Everybody in the UK has better access to the full healthcare system than an insured american with Catastrophic Coverage only.
Everybody in the UK has better access to healthcare than people in the US with no insurance.
Employers in the UK are in a considerably better position to ride out the economic problems because they are not saddled with paying for healthcare plans.

Theres a canard that quality of care is nlower - when for even many insured americans the care they need isn't even an option - let alone the quality of it to be a consideration.

I've needed several referrals to consultants recently and all my care has been prompt and of a very good standard - which is the oevr whelming experience of the in the UK healthsystem.

And - if people don't wan to use the NHS, they can go private. Simple.

101 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:25:54am

re: #89 iossarian

Insurance companies don't deny high-risk people coverage.

They just charge them a trillion dollars a year for it.

The concept of health insurance makes no sense at all, when you actually think carefully about it.

What, don't you think it is the G- given right of entrepreneurs to have undue influence on an industry that they add no value to in order to parasitically make money off of other's fears and misfortunes?

102 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:26:49am

re: #89 iossarian

Insurance companies don't deny high-risk people coverage.

They just charge them a trillion dollars a year for it.

The concept of health insurance makes no sense at all, when you actually think carefully about it.

There is such a thing as denial because of pre existing conditions.

103 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:27:04am

re: #63 Killgore Trout

Yup. I think a lot of this is manufactured insanity to manipulate wingnuts. Wining elections for Republicans is the last thing Fox news wants.

Much like how Rush Limbaugh's career was made by Clinton being President, and carrying water for Bush was something Limbaugh eventually complained about on air

104 celticdragon  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:27:20am

re: #89 iossarian

Insurance companies don't deny high-risk people coverage.

They just charge them a trillion dollars a year for it.

The concept of health insurance makes no sense at all, when you actually think carefully about it.

They most absolutely do deny coverage in many states.


(CBS) With 46 million Americans living without health insurance, thousands of uninsured people who can't get insurance contact call centers every month.

Scott Svonkin, an active 41-year-old, never thought he'd be one of them.

"Pacificare rejected me because I'm an expectant father. Blue Shield rejected me because I got a spider bite. And then this one rejected me because of asthma," Svonkin said.

Svonkin has managed his asthma for more than 20 years with $150 a month in medication, making him one of the new "Uninsurables" — people who've been denied individual health insurance, but not for a serious illness, CBS News chief investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian reports.

....
If you have any problem whatsoever, you are on the outside looking in — in the individual market.

"One of the things that you are saying essentially is the perception," said Pisano.

But it's a reality for millions of Americans as well.

"Maybe the perception and the reality are a little different," Pisano conceded.

Not for Svonkin. Ironically, he's a member of Los Angeles County's Insurance Commission.

"I never imagined it would be so hard to get health care," Svonkin said. "It's not a matter (that) I can't afford it. It's a matter that they won't give it to me at any price."

105 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:28:14am

re: #102 researchok

There is such a thing as denial because of pre existing conditions.

Thats being phased out under the Obama legislation.

106 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:28:37am

re: #97 Obdicut

Ah, forgot the wait times image.

Image: HPE-Access-2011-from-MacBook-Pro.018.jpg

Notice-- less than 10% of people in the UK have to wait more than 6 days to see a doctor when sick.

Almost 20% of people in the US do.

Yes, Canada has a criss in terms of wait times. But it's not the only single-payer system out there, and only it and two other countries are worse than the US in terms of wait times.

107 b_sharp  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:28:59am

Socialist medicine is a drag on society. It forces the rich to wait as long as the poor, it takes jobs from medical professionals by catching diseases too early and emptying hospital beds too quickly, and it removes opportunities for peripheral occupations, such as funeral home workers by extending life spans indiscriminately.

108 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:29:06am

re: #29 ralphieboy

This on MSNBC. A bill to make women subject to the death penalty for maiscarriages. I am gobsmacked:

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

This is beyond a sick joke.

Good…fucking…Christ. I do not believe how evil these people can be!

109 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:30:20am

re: #100 wozzablog

Everybody in the UK has better access to the full healthcare system than an insured american with Catastrophic Coverage only.
Everybody in the UK has better access to healthcare than people in the US with no insurance.
Employers in the UK are in a considerably better position to ride out the economic problems because they are not saddled with paying for healthcare plans.

Theres a canard that quality of care is nlower - when for even many insured americans the care they need isn't even an option - let alone the quality of it to be a consideration.

I've needed several referrals to consultants recently and all my care has been prompt and of a very good standard - which is the oevr whelming experience of the in the UK healthsystem.

And - if people don't wan to use the NHS, they can go private. Simple.

Yes, there is the opting out provision of the NHS- which in itself speaks volumes.

Still, the quality of care is spotty at best (recall the patients made to wait in ambulances so ER wait times might be manipulated).

In Canada, it took a Supreme Court opinion to allow citizens to 'opt out'.

Single payer systems are a mixed bag- great for preventative care, no so good for other things.

110 celticdragon  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:30:32am

re: #93 Stanley Sea

[Video]There's also a featured page.

Thanks. I will watch it when I get home from school and can get the volume.

I am sorry to say that Yorba Linda is a hotbed for right wing hate now. Orange County was always conservative...but now it is going crazy it seems.

I really hate to see these people dragging our glorious flag through the mud by associating it with bigotry.

111 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:30:43am

re: #108 Romantic Heretic

Good…fucking…Christ. I do not believe how evil these people can be!

well, at this point it's a pure stunt, in no way does anyone think that will ever happen, but it hypnotizes gullible pro-lifers who think the battle is being waged, it's all theater, it's a GOP tap dance to keep fanatical social conservatives completely invested

112 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:30:43am

re: #94 LudwigVanQuixote

Not really.

Well, Ford is hiring again. Chrysler and GM, not so much.

113 Stanghazi  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:30:51am

This may help the mood.

Testifying fetus refuses to cooperate.

[Link: wonkette.com...]

114 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:31:58am

re: #89 iossarian


The concept of health insurance makes no sense at all, when you actually think carefully about it.

I take it you mean the implementation as a free market for profit function makes no sense; to one party?

115 iossarian  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:32:00am

re: #104 celticdragon

They most absolutely do deny coverage in many states.

I take your point. What I meant was that, if you offered an insurance company a trillion dollars a year, they would insure you. This is a philosophical point about the nature of health insurance that of course does not map exactly to the real world, where people do not have a trillion dollars to spend in this way.

I will endeavor to be more precise with my language next time.

116 webevintage  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:32:00am

re: #100 wozzablog

Theres a canard that quality of care is nlower - when for even many insured americans the care they need isn't even an option - let alone the quality of it to be a consideration.

THIS.

I have a condition, I need surgery, it will make me healthier and help me live longer, I cannot afford the surgery (let alone the scans needed) even with our insurance so I take pills instead (they may or may not be helping) and hope that I'll make it until we win the lottery or get better insurance or I'm old enough for medicare.

117 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:32:19am

re: #113 Stanley Sea

This may help the mood.

Testifying fetus refuses to cooperate.

[Link: wonkette.com...]

Permission to treat the witness as hostile your honor?

118 angel Graham  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:32:28am

re: #29 ralphieboy

Sputter! Gag!

I can't say anything. I could be banned for the language I would use against these...these...

AUGHHHHH!!

119 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:32:35am

re: #97 Obdicut

But this isn't actually true. Why do you think it is?

The time to see a general practitioner in single-payer systems is less. for most, than in the US, and the care give by GPs is better. The time to see a specialist in the US is less than most-- but we're still not the leader.

And in terms of quality, we're not the best by a number of measures.

[Link: theincidentaleconomist.com...]

Image: HPE-Quality-2011.044.jpg

Image: HPE-Quality-2011.42.042.jpg

What is your basis for saying that care in single-payer countries is worse, and that there are 'lesser services'?

The problem is that health insurance is a naturally broken market. There is no incentive at all for a health insurance company to insure, or to provide benefits for, an actually sick person, at least not without making their insurance incredibly expensive.

This makes it different than other forms of insurance. The free market behaves very badly in naturally broken markets.

And many of the arguments for the U.S. is better than other countries have it completely (Or at least partially) backwards.

OK, so maybe for some things you don't get seen as fast as you do in the U.S., but the question is, do you really *need* to be seen/treated right away? I mean, sure, if you're bleeding out you can't wait a week to see a doctor, but a lot of services aren't nearly that time-sensitive. It gets expensive to have to have a ton of people ready to work at any time in order to be able to rush people in and out. And maybe, just maybe, part of the reason that people don't have to wait for some things in the U.S. is because many people that would need or want it can't afford it.

As for "services", well, having more tests or procedures doesn't mean they're helping or giving better results. They might, they might not. What they mean for sure, however, is higher costs and more time spent on them.

120 iossarian  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:33:04am

re: #109 researchok

Yes, there is the opting out provision of the NHS- which in itself speaks volumes.

Still, the quality of care is spotty at best (recall the patients made to wait in ambulances so ER wait times might be manipulated).

In Canada, it took a Supreme Court opinion to allow citizens to 'opt out'.

Single payer systems are a mixed bag- great for preventative care, no so good for other things.

You don't "opt out" in the UK. You are still covered by the NHS and you don't get a tax deduction/credit/whatever.

There are rules about not mixing the NHS and private treatment though (to avoid it becoming a two-tier system).

121 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:34:29am

re: #112 Alouette

Well, Ford is hiring again. Chrysler and GM, not so much.

Ford is more world-diversified than GM is, though GM's sales are way up

122 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:34:41am

re: #112 Alouette

Well, Ford is hiring again. Chrysler and GM, not so much.

And chrysler just sucks :D

123 celticdragon  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:34:50am

re: #108 Romantic Heretic

Good…fucking…Christ. I do not believe how evil these people can be!

And then people get after me for "Godwin" references when I suggest that the far right has started to migrate into actual fascistic territory with these kinds of authoritarian social controls, and institutionalized religious and racial bigotry.

They have taken the playbook from Europe in the 1920's and wrapped it in our flag while carrying a crucifix.

124 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:35:14am

re: #109 researchok

Yes, there is the opting out provision of the NHS- which in itself speaks volumes.

Still, the quality of care is spotty at best (recall the patients made to wait in ambulances so ER wait times might be manipulated).

In Canada, it took a Supreme Court opinion to allow citizens to 'opt out'.

Single payer systems are a mixed bag- great for preventative care, no so good for other things.

And even if the treatment and speed is objectively better in the U.S., what good is that if half the population has limited or no access to it? Is good health care a right reserved solely for the rich or connected or employed? Why is it that the people in the U.S. that most need health care often are the ones most likely to do without (Not counting seniors, who have the single-payer Medicare system)?

125 webevintage  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:35:44am

re: #109 researchok

Yes, there is the opting out provision of the NHS- which in itself speaks volumes.

hahahahahahaha
So because rich people can choose to spend more on their health care then there is something wrong with the system? At least sick working class people in the UK can GO TO THE DOCTOR when they are sick without worrying about whether or not they have enough money to pay up front.

126 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:36:25am

re: #113 Stanley Sea

This may help the mood.

Testifying fetus refuses to cooperate.

[Link: wonkette.com...]

In other news, a lawyer for Focus On The Marriages called a G.I. Joe action figure (allegedly "Shipwreck") to the stand to report on the illicit activities of his child owner

127 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:36:40am

re: #109 researchok

Yes, there is the opting out provision of the NHS- which in itself speaks volumes.

Still, the quality of care is spotty at best (recall the patients made to wait in ambulances so ER wait times might be manipulated).

In Canada, it took a Supreme Court opinion to allow citizens to 'opt out'.

Single payer systems are a mixed bag- great for preventative care, no so good for other things.

The NHS covers the entire population - inherent in all systems with 100% coverage capacity is at a premium and that spaces goes on medical need.

The American system does not offer 100% coverage and abillity to pay is the premium factor.

People have always had the abillity to obtain private insurance here - there are some very funny perceptions.

The vast bulk of people opting to use pricvate treatment - which is provided in NHS hospitals often, are for scans and routine operations.

The General Practioner/Family Doctor service is unrivaled here - no private equivalent will ever get off the ground to a great degree.

And funny story about ambulances - no body taken to Hospital in the UK has ever been bankrupted by the ambulance journey alone. Given the option of being treated by paramedics in an ambulance if there isn't a bed inside or being taken to the "wrong hospital" and being bankrupted - i know what i'd prefer.

128 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:37:42am

re: #126 WindUpBird

In other news, a lawyer for Focus On The Marriages called a G.I. Joe action figure (allegedly "Shipwreck") to the stand to report on the illicit activities of his child owner

The lawyer then provided the witness with an even smaller doll so that it could show exactly where it had been touched....

129 iossarian  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:37:56am

re: #109 researchok


Single payer systems are a mixed bag- great for preventative care, no so good for other things.

Again, this is an unsubstantiated claim.

People who have experienced both European and US health systems tend to favor the former, by a wide margin.

A big part of the problem in the US with public perception of how we might do things differently is that so few people have ever lived abroad, so they really have no first-hand experience of what other systems might actually feel like.

130 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:38:22am

re: #128 jamesfirecat

The lawyer then provided the witness with an even smaller doll so that it could show exactly where it had been touched...

HE TOUCHED ME IN THE H.I.S.S. TANK, YOUR HONOR

131 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:38:29am

re: #97 Obdicut

But this isn't actually true. Why do you think it is?

The time to see a general practitioner in single-payer systems is less. for most, than in the US, and the care give by GPs is better. The time to see a specialist in the US is less than most-- but we're still not the leader.

And in terms of quality, we're not the best by a number of measures.

[Link: theincidentaleconomist.com...]

Image: HPE-Quality-2011.044.jpg

Image: HPE-Quality-2011.42.042.jpg

What is your basis for saying that care in single-payer countries is worse, and that there are 'lesser services'?

The problem is that health insurance is a naturally broken market. There is no incentive at all for a health insurance company to insure, or to provide benefits for, an actually sick person, at least not without making their insurance incredibly expensive.

This makes it different than other forms of insurance. The free market behaves very badly in naturally broken markets.

So patients crossing into the US for medical services isn't an indicator of problems with the Canadian health care system?

Wait times for surgery aren't an issue?

Medical clinics at border cities aren't there to service a real need?

MRI's in Canada can entail a 21 week wait. Not so good.

Canadian politicians often forgo the health care system for American and/or private care.

I could go on and on.

There is no Garden of Eden in Canada when it comes to medical care.

There are some good things and there are some not so good things.

132 webevintage  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:38:33am

re: #109 researchok

Yes, there is the opting out provision of the NHS- which in itself speaks volumes.

Still, the quality of care is spotty at best (recall the patients made to wait in ambulances so ER wait times might be manipulated).

In Canada, it took a Supreme Court opinion to allow citizens to 'opt out'.

Single payer systems are a mixed bag- great for preventative care, no so good for other things.

Like I said:
but but BUT you have to WAIT to see someone and people DIE waiting and Drs. in the UK health system make MISTAKES and they let Grandma DIE and...
//

133 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:39:36am

re: #131 researchok

So patients crossing into the US for medical services isn't an indicator of problems with the Canadian health care system?

Wait times for surgery aren't an issue?

Medical clinics at border cities aren't there to service a real need?

MRI's in Canada can entail a 21 week wait. Not so good.

Canadian politicians often forgo the health care system for American and/or private care.

I could go on and on.

There is no Garden of Eden in Canada when it comes to medical care.

There are some good things and there are some not so good things.

Drugs are cheaper in Canada.

134 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:40:12am

And, finally, even if it were the case that the Canadian an UK health care systems were ones we *didn't* want to emulate...why is that the end of the discussion? There are many, many other countries out there with better, more efficiently run health care systems than the U.S. has. Why can't we look at those for ideas? Why are Canada and the UK the be-all, end-all of possible options?

135 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:40:30am

re: #98 Simply Sarah

Pretty much the only way you can have a system of insurance is to make it so: 1. People with any pre-existing conditions can be declined. 2. Risk very high premiums because those who feel they need coverage tend to be highest risk.

You know, a system like it has been.

You ignore that we don't let people die if they don't have insurance or money. Those who don't have insurance but have modest assets lose their assets and end up with a large percentage of the population that has never had any assets anyway and could care less about collection agencies, and still get care.

Guess who pays for it anyway and then pretends it is not socialism?

136 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:40:39am

re: #131 researchok

So patients crossing into the US for medical services isn't an indicator of problems with the Canadian health care system?


This is the most stupid meme I have ever seen.

The people who cross the border into the US seem to ALWAYS be very important, people like Prime Ministers, people with lots and lots of money, people for who cost is not an issue.

So yeah, the US system is great, if you're rich enough to afford it.

What does it say that Sarah Palin and her middle class family snuck across the border to take advantage of Canada's system?

137 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:40:49am

re: #131 researchok

So patients crossing into the US for medical services isn't an indicator of problems with the Canadian health care system?

What about patients from the US crossing into Mexico for health care?

I thought we were talking about wait times and quality of care. Suddenly it's about anecdotal stuff.

Wait times for surgery aren't an issue?

Sure. Provide some data.


MRI's in Canada can entail a 21 week wait. Not so good.

Why are you still talking about Canada like it's the only single-payer health care system in the world? Didn't you get the point of my post was that every other industrialized nation in the world is a single payer or mixed system? Why continue comparing only to Canada?

There is no Garden of Eden in Canada when it comes to medical care.

Did you really just not bother to read my post?

Seriously, dude.

138 webevintage  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:41:06am

re: #131 researchok

So patients crossing into the US for medical services isn't an indicator of problems with the Canadian health care system?

Canadians with money cross so what, people with money will always get better services then the rest of us.
and then there are Americans who go to Canada for health care.
What's up with that?
Of course there are even MORE Americans who go to Mexico for health care, dental care and prescriptions.
What does that say about the American health care system?

139 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:41:38am

re: #131 researchok

So patients crossing into the US for medical services isn't an indicator of problems with the Canadian health care system?

Wait times for surgery aren't an issue?

Medical clinics at border cities aren't there to service a real need?

MRI's in Canada can entail a 21 week wait. Not so good.

Canadian politicians often forgo the health care system for American and/or private care.

I could go on and on.

There is no Garden of Eden in Canada when it comes to medical care.

There are some good things and there are some not so good things.

is this where we ignore that a whole lot of Americans are completely uninsured, or who have such high deductibles, monthly payments, and co-pays that they may as well be?


is this where we pretend that Canadians with tons o' money equals all Americans?

140 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:41:47am

re: #127 wozzablog

The NHS covers the entire population - inherent in all systems with 100% coverage capacity is at a premium and that spaces goes on medical need.

The American system does not offer 100% coverage and abillity to pay is the premium factor.

People have always had the abillity to obtain private insurance here - there are some very funny perceptions.

The vast bulk of people opting to use pricvate treatment - which is provided in NHS hospitals often, are for scans and routine operations.

The General Practioner/Family Doctor service is unrivaled here - no private equivalent will ever get off the ground to a great degree.

And funny story about ambulances - no body taken to Hospital in the UK has ever been bankrupted by the ambulance journey alone. Given the option of being treated by paramedics in an ambulance if there isn't a bed inside or being taken to the "wrong hospital" and being bankrupted - i know what i'd prefer.

As I said, there are some good things and there are some not so good things about the NHS.

If that weren't true the program wouldn't be in the news so often.

Also, you have to factor in the cost. The NHS is the single largest employer in Britain. That kind of bloat has to impact the delivery of health care.

141 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:41:56am

re: #87 researchok

Single payer is the way many countries go but in the it isn't ideal (Canada and the UK, for example) with lesser services- and may say quality of care- now the rule of thumb.

Really? I've never had any problems with the health care system here. It's worked great even in emergency situations. I get the service I need when I need it.

Shrugs. I'll never convince people who dislike public health care though.

142 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:41:56am

re: #135 Naso Tang

You ignore that we don't let people die if they don't have insurance or money. Those who don't have insurance but have modest assets lose their assets and end up with a large percentage of the population that has never had any assets anyway and could care less about collection agencies, and still get care.

Guess who pays for it anyway and then pretends it is not socialism?

Well, that's exactly the case. Instead of having a sane system to dealing with the providing of care, we have a crazy system where we wait until things are a crises (Or people just decide the ER is their PCP) to deal with them, which just costs even more.

143 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:42:51am

re: #138 webevintage

Canadians with money cross so what, people with money will always get better services then the rest of us.
and then there are Americans who go to Canada for health care.
What's up with that?
Of course there are even MORE Americans who go to Mexico for health care, dental care and prescriptions.
What does that say about the American health care system?

It doesn't say anything.

Americans leave the country, mostly for elective surgery.

Canadians come here for more pressing reasons.

144 iossarian  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:43:11am

re: #140 researchok


Also, you have to factor in the cost. The NHS is the single largest employer in Britain. That kind of bloat has to impact the delivery of health care.

I've had it with this bullshit.

Facts or GTFO.

The non-medical overhead in the NHS is usually around 3%, I believe.

In the US, that figure is between 20% and 30%, depending on the insurance company.

145 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:43:37am

re: #143 researchok

It doesn't say anything.

Americans leave the country, mostly for elective surgery.

Canadians come here for more pressing reasons.

Can you show me links dealing with middle class Canadians coming to the US for such things?

146 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:44:00am

re: #131 researchok

So patients crossing into the US for medical services isn't an indicator of problems with the Canadian health care system?

Wait times for surgery aren't an issue?

Medical clinics at border cities aren't there to service a real need?

MRI's in Canada can entail a 21 week wait. Not so good.

Canadian politicians often forgo the health care system for American and/or private care.

I could go on and on.

There is no Garden of Eden in Canada when it comes to medical care.

There are some good things and there are some not so good things.

If every single American had a RIGHt to a basic level of care that included MRI, x-ray, surgery.....etc etc etc......... you would see wait times in America too.

AND AGAIN - they are waiting times to GET a treatment, many in America EVEN WITH INSURANCE DON'T EVEN HAVE THE OPTION TO WAIT, they have no chance of the treatment - at all!

147 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:44:11am

I think I just heard Boehner sobbing.

148 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:44:11am

re: #138 webevintage

Canadians with money cross so what, people with money will always get better services then the rest of us.
and then there are Americans who go to Canada for health care.
What's up with that?
Of course there are even MORE Americans who go to Mexico for health care, dental care and prescriptions.
What does that say about the American health care system?


it's like, isn't America the very definition of the country where tons of money talks? :D

Why is this surprising?

I mean, if a rich guy comes from another country to the US for medical care, all that tells me is America works as it always has. Pay to play! if you can't pay, later skater!

149 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:44:21am

re: #139 WindUpBird

is this where we ignore that a whole lot of Americans are completely uninsured, or who have such high deductibles, monthly payments, and co-pays that they may as well be?

is this where we pretend that Canadians with tons o' money equals all Americans?

Absolutely not.

See my 87

150 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:44:38am

re: #141 Romantic Heretic

Really? I've never had any problems with the health care system here. It's worked great even in emergency situations. I get the service I need when I need it.

Shrugs. I'll never convince people who dislike public health care though.

Talking points about the UK medical system ABOUND

151 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:44:52am

This is my favorite image ever found while researching health care.

Image: garfieldh.jpg

152 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:44:56am

re: #146 wozzablog

Sorry for shouting. But sometimes - just, sometimes.

153 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:45:52am

re: #10 Romantic Heretic

In the teabagger's minds, those that suffer are not people.

In the teabaggers' minds, only they suffer.

154 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:46:06am

re: #149 researchok

Absolutely not.

See my 87

I just don't see how the Rich Canadian thing is a gotcha, while Americans are flying to India for dental work and routine hernia surgeries

I see all these ACTUAL UK citizens in the thread disputing your claims as well, I think i'm going with the people who live there

155 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:46:12am

re: #140 researchok

As I said, there are some good things and there are some not so good things about the NHS.

If that weren't true the program wouldn't be in the news so often.

Also, you have to factor in the cost. The NHS is the single largest employer in Britain. That kind of bloat has to impact the delivery of health care.

Wasn't there a Canadian lady (I may be getting the person mixed up) that the GOP pulled out in the health care debate to show complaints about the Canadian health care system and how she was pushing for changes in it and all. Just that, in the end, she was all "WTF are you talking about. I want to fix our system, no change to yours".

I may be getting some of the details mixed up, but I do know that many users of those health care systems that have complaints also say they'd much rather have their system, warts and all, than deal with the American one.

156 webevintage  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:46:31am

re: #143 researchok

It doesn't say anything.

Americans leave the country, mostly for elective surgery.

Canadians come here for more pressing reasons.

sigh.
fine.
whatever.
we have the best healthcare in the world if you can afford it and you are right we do not let people die...unless they are folks who just do not go to the doctor because they can't afford it.
you do realize there are people like that, right?
who just.don't.go.
and then they die.

157 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:47:25am

re: #156 webevintage

sigh.
fine.
whatever.
we have the best healthcare in the world if you can afford it and you are right we do not let people die...unless they are folks who just do not go to the doctor because they can't afford it.
you do realize there are people like that, right?
who just.don't.go.
and then they die.

America! We're the can don't nation!

158 iossarian  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:47:25am

re: #156 webevintage

Poor people don't count.

The devil take the hindmost.

Copyright 1970-2011, GOP.

159 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:47:32am

When i was in America - even the most well informed people i spoke to had no idea of the true nature of the UK system and how badly off they were by comparrison - even with "good" plans.

Optometry - in reach of everyone.
Dental - in reach of everyone.
General Practice - in reach of everyone.
Physiotherapy - £40 a session
Drugs - £7.50 per scrip

160 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:47:44am

re: #156 webevintage

sigh.
fine.
whatever.
we have the best healthcare in the world if you can afford it and you are right we do not let people die...unless they are folks who just do not go to the doctor because they can't afford it.
you do realize there are people like that, right?
who just.don't.go.
and then they die.

Yes, we, can....

But that doesn't mean we will!

161 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:48:00am

re: #156 webevintage

sigh.
fine.
whatever.
we have the best healthcare in the world if you can afford it and you are right we do not let people die...unless they are folks who just do not go to the doctor because they can't afford it.
you do realize there are people like that, right?
who just.don't.go.
and then they die.

USA! USA! USA!
/

162 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:48:21am

re: #158 iossarian

I always wonder how they factor in the wait times for those without insurance and with no way to pay, for non-emergency stuff. Functionally, their wait times are infinity unless they live somewhere with some free clinics provided by the city, county, or state.

163 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:48:59am

re: #159 wozzablog

When i was in America - even the most well informed people i spoke to had no idea of the true nature of the UK system and how badly off they were by comparrison - even with "good" plans.

Optometry - in reach of everyone.
Dental - in reach of everyone.
General Practice - in reach of everyone.
Physiotherapy - £40 a session
Drugs - £7.50 per scrip

I assume you also mean like how most Americans think the UK has the worst dental system in the world, when it is actually considered one of the best.

164 iossarian  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:49:03am

re: #159 wozzablog

When i was in America - even the most well informed people i spoke to had no idea of the true nature of the UK system and how badly off they were by comparrison - even with "good" plans.

Optometry - in reach of everyone.
Dental - in reach of everyone.
General Practice - in reach of everyone.
Physiotherapy - £40 a session
Drugs - £7.50 per scrip

Even after dealing with the US system for a while, I didn't realize that there are people with insurance with a lifetime limit. A FUCKING LIFETIME LIMIT!

Sorry, got to turn off the chemo now, bud.

165 celticdragon  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:49:25am

re: #111 WindUpBird

well, at this point it's a pure stunt, in no way does anyone think that will ever happen, but it hypnotizes gullible pro-lifers who think the battle is being waged, it's all theater, it's a GOP tap dance to keep fanatical social conservatives completely invested

Do. Not. Underestimate. Them.

They are deadly serious and they will shove this sort of thing through the moment they get a SCOTUS working majority and another GOP president.

All of the Comstock laws banning birth control? Laws banning even talking about birth control? Yep. Think I'm kidding? We damned near didn't get FDA approval of Plan B.

Things got even more insane with the HPV vaccine. The fundies went berzerk because getting rid of the risk of human papilloma virus (which causes cervical cancer) could encourage female promiscuity...

Much less understandable, though, is the position taken by many opponents: namely, that a cervical-cancer vaccination would "promote promiscuity" among teenage girls. Implicit in this argument is the assumption that good girls don't get cervical cancer; only "loose" ones do—and they may get what they deserve. Earlier this year, State Sen. George Runner of California told the Los Angeles Times that American money would be much better spent on other types of vaccines, since cervical cancer is a result of lifestyle choices, rather than bad genetic luck.

These people are willing to let your daughter die in agony because she had sex with guy who was infected...possibly her own husband...so that they can make an example of her.

They are fucking crazy and they mean business.

166 lawhawk  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:49:55am

re: #151 Obdicut

Well, that would cure that nagging cough and more than explain the tightness I feel in my neck.. ///

167 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:50:10am

re: #155 Simply Sarah

Wasn't there a Canadian lady (I may be getting the person mixed up) that the GOP pulled out in the health care debate to show complaints about the Canadian health care system and how she was pushing for changes in it and all. Just that, in the end, she was all "WTF are you talking about. I want to fix our system, no change to yours".

I may be getting some of the details mixed up, but I do know that many users of those health care systems that have complaints also say they'd much rather have their system, warts and all, than deal with the American one.

They have "warts". Our system OTOH, is gangrenous and rotting to putresecnce


I love this thing where, the standard is total perfection, else we just push back. Never mind that Canada's system is a vast improvement

Also, Canada's life expectancy is quite a bit higher than ours

168 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:51:02am

re: #158 iossarian

Poor people don't count.

The devil take the hindmost.

Copyright 1970-2011, GOP.

The self-employed don't count either! Anyone who is trying to start a small business is essentially fighting a massive uphill battle with regard to their health care, compared to countries where health care isn't a debacle

169 celticdragon  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:51:07am

re: #126 WindUpBird

In other news, a lawyer for Focus On The Marriages called a G.I. Joe action figure (allegedly "Shipwreck") to the stand to report on the illicit activities of his child owner

Did they include the parrot accessory and the antiquated shotgun sidearm?

170 iossarian  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:51:34am

re: #167 WindUpBird

They have "warts". Our system OTOH, is gangrenous and rotting to putresecnce

I love this thing where, the standard is total perfection, else we just push back. Never mind that Canada's system is a vast improvement

Also, Canada's life expectancy is quite a bit higher than ours

One of the best signs, IMO, of a health and functioning organization (of any kind) is that internally people complain about it more or less incessantly, but will then defend it to the death to anyone outside it.

171 Max  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:51:40am

Anjem Choudary and his band of buffoons didn't show up today to call for sharia law in front of the White House, but that didn't stop Frank Gaffney and the anti-Muslim bigot brigade.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:51:57am

re: #41 wozzablog

Kind of agree.

There are a lot of attitudes re-emerging from an earlier era that were main placed in aspects of American society - and i don't think it's Naziism.

The poster who used the photo of school desegregation in the last thread hit, i think, the nail pretty much on the head. Whats happeneing is to it's very core American, it's an America people like to forget existed, but still simmers closer to the top than people like to think.

Yeah, this. They want to roll back the clock.

173 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:54:03am

laters all

174 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:54:03am

re: #171 Max D. Reinhardt

Jesus. This shit is getting out of hand, everywhere.

175 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:54:58am

Jesus! Jesus!

176 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:56:05am

re: #171 Max D. Reinhardt

My comment from your page:

But just as the rally was dying out, a Muslim man who showed up to pray in front of the White House. He was quickly surrounded by a large group of protestors who shouted an array of insults at him: mocking him for drinking Starbucks coffee, telling him to go back to his country and even throwing tiny crosses at his feet as he prayed. I captured the scene in the video below.

I'm not a Christian, but isn't throwing crosses at people's feet kind of sacrilegious unto itself?

177 webevintage  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:56:50am

It really does not matter if Canada and the UK and most of Europe have healthcare systems that are not perfect....what matters is how bad ours sucks in comparison to theirs.
And not in how well we treat the middle and upper class (they, for the most part get phenomenal care) or even the poor who use their medicaide properly. I'm talking about the middle, the working class and the lower middle class and the self employed.
These are the folks our health care system hurts...
They just don't avail themselves of it. They only go if they are so sick they can't work.
They wait until it is too late.

(do you know that we hoard antibiotics at our house? mostly ones we have gotten from the vet for various animals but never finish. You never know when you might get an infection and can't get into the Dr. or clinic)

178 sagehen  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:57:24am

re: #109 researchok

Yes, there is the opting out provision of the NHS- which in itself speaks volumes.

Yeah -- it speaks volumes that people who can afford it are happy to pay for private rooms after surgery and tastier food, or comfier waiting rooms while waiting 15 minutes for an office visit instead of maybe having to wait an hour while a doc might get called downstairs to an emergency. And the private practice validates parking.

But they're getting the exact same medical care from the exact same doctors (UK doctors who go into "private practice" are at their private clinic a couple of days a week and NHS the other days).

179 iossarian  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:57:50am

TTFN

180 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:57:51am

re: #145 jamesfirecat

Can you show me links dealing with middle class Canadians coming to the US for such things?

Sure, start here.

Waiting Your Turn: Wait Times for Health Care in Canada 2010 Report

Statistics Show Canadian Healthcare Is Inferior to American System

Surgical wait times jump to 18.2 weeks, second longest ever as all provinces record greater delays for treatment

Canadian health care wait times highest for orthopaedic surgery procedures

Quebec's Wait Times for Surgery Jump to More Than 18 Weeks, Two Weeks Longer Than in 2009

Canadians visit U.S. to get health care

CANADA'S EXPECTANT MOMS HEADING TO U.S. TO DELIVER

Please understand I am for health care reform.

My point is that I believe Obama hit the nail on the head if gives local governments the wherewithal to deal with health care as best serves their needs. In looking at the 'one size fits all model', it is clear he has drawn his own conclusions

181 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:58:29am

re: #176 Obdicut

My comment from your page:

I'm not a Christian, but isn't throwing crosses at people's feet kind of sacrilegious unto itself?

The whole scene is beyond bizzaire. "Jesus loves you" sign right next to "Burn in Hell". One lady chanting "Jesus" while waving a flag with the Star of David.

182 lawhawk  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:59:05am

re: #180 researchok

Except that the HCR isn't one size fits all and that he's open to giving states all kinds of waivers to put together their own plans that pass muster and meet the goals of improving access to health care.

183 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:59:18am

re: #142 Simply Sarah

Well, that's exactly the case. Instead of having a sane system to dealing with the providing of care, we have a crazy system where we wait until things are a crises (Or people just decide the ER is their PCP) to deal with them, which just costs even more.

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I had the impression you preferred it the way it is (pre Obama).

I think many people wait until there is a crisis even if they have insurance because they are afraid of being dropped if they go for something minor and the insurance company finds out. I am one of them, although I haven't had the crisis, and getting Medicare recently took a big psychological load off my mind.

As an example, for many years I have had my skin regularly checked and small suspicious parts removed or frozen (when young I often looked like I was related to Boehner). One company, that Blue Shield/Cross piece of crap, told me they would give me insurance but not cover anything to do with my skin, even though I never had a malignancy. Another company covered me, but for years I didn't want to have checkups if I didn't think there was a reason to do so.

Insurance companies are the scum of capitalism, and that applies not only to health.

184 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 11:59:35am

re: #156 webevintage

sigh.
fine.
whatever.
we have the best healthcare in the world if you can afford it and you are right we do not let people die...unless they are folks who just do not go to the doctor because they can't afford it.
you do realize there are people like that, right?
who just.don't.go.
and then they die.

My dad is a physician in the UK.

He might disagree as to whether or not the NHS has the best healthcare in the world.

185 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:00:17pm

re: #182 lawhawk

Except that the HCR isn't one size fits all and that he's open to giving states all kinds of waivers to put together their own plans that pass muster and meet the goals of improving access to health care.

Yes, I noted that earlier.

That's where I think he hits the right mark.

186 garhighway  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:00:19pm

re: #131 researchok

So patients crossing into the US for medical services isn't an indicator of problems with the Canadian health care system?

Wait times for surgery aren't an issue?

Medical clinics at border cities aren't there to service a real need?

MRI's in Canada can entail a 21 week wait. Not so good.

Canadian politicians often forgo the health care system for American and/or private care.

I could go on and on.

There is no Garden of Eden in Canada when it comes to medical care.

There are some good things and there are some not so good things.

All anecdotal.

No real data.

Fail.

187 garhighway  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:02:55pm

Here's something that's fun: Anthony Weiner and Megyn Kelly talking about Justice Thomas on Fox.

What's fun is Weiner's insistence that he actually gets to respond to the stuff Megyn says, and her reaction to that.

[Link: wonkette.com...]

188 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:03:08pm

re: #165 celticdragon

Okay. First of all, the bill that guy is pushing says guilty until proven innocent, so it's gonna be shot down way before it meets SCOTUS. it was written by a fringe chimpanzee, a subhuman shitflinger who just wants to grandstand for Maw and Paw and the rest of the shallow gene pool.

I agree they mean business! Much the same way that children mean business when they get mad and break stuff. But it's not in the GOP's interests for that to happen.

What the GOP wants is not for the pro-lifers to win, or to push through a law so Nazi-like in truth that it would make world headlines the instant a woman were arrested under it. There'd probably be riots in Georgia if that became law, honestly. They want the slow trickle of victories and defeats that go back and forth but keep them invested in their GOD BATTLE and their CHRIST WARRIORHOOD or whatever power-fantasy horseshit some guy in a think tank is calling it these days

For if the so-cons got the big payoff, they'd be less energized. The GOP wants a perpetually energized social conservative movement. They want them hungry

And I don't really think about the SCOTUS makeup because there's really nothing I can do about it, if it really came down to the SCOTUS declaring without question that a woman could be put to death in georgia, assumed guilty by a state? My advice is don't go to Georgia again, treat it like a no-man's land, just write it out of your vision of America

189 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:03:52pm

re: #170 iossarian

One of the best signs, IMO, of a health and functioning organization (of any kind) is that internally people complain about it more or less incessantly, but will then defend it to the death to anyone outside it.

of course!

Which then plays into talking points, ah well

190 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:04:52pm

re: #183 Naso Tang

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I had the impression you preferred it the way it is (pre Obama).

I think many people wait until there is a crisis even if they have insurance because they are afraid of being dropped if they go for something minor and the insurance company finds out. I am one of them, although I haven't had the crisis, and getting Medicare recently took a big psychological load off my mind.

As an example, for many years I have had my skin regularly checked and small suspicious parts removed or frozen (when young I often looked like I was related to Boehner). One company, that Blue Shield/Cross piece of crap, told me they would give me insurance but not cover anything to do with my skin, even though I never had a malignancy. Another company covered me, but for years I didn't want to have checkups if I didn't think there was a reason to do so.

Insurance companies are the scum of capitalism, and that applies not only to health.

Ah, no. What I meant is that those were some of the things you'd need to do if you insisted on "health insurance" as the main method of running payments for health care. I don't entirely blame the insurance companies, in that they're basically doing things as would be expected in a for-profit "free market" health insurance world. It's just that the reality of that isn't pretty.

191 celticdragon  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:05:13pm

re: #163 Simply Sarah

I assume you also mean like how most Americans think the UK has the worst dental system in the world, when it is actually considered one of the best.

Because we have been fed a line of horseshit from WW II to today that we are NUMBA ONE AND TEH BESTEST IN TEH WORLD 4EVAH!!ty!!

Bill O'Reilly calls it "exceptionalism", and uses it to ambush guests who think that we are not necessarily the best at everything at all times in human history.

A lot of folks in other countries just think we are being chauvinistic assholes who are riding on faded laurels won by another generation over half a century ago.

I tend to think we are going to take one hell of a hit to our pride and it won't be pretty when we find out that we are not still living in 1948 and the rest of the world isn't scared to death of us. We have been patting ourselves on the back and demanding our politicians tell us that everything American is automatically the best...because we say so.

Our health care system is the best in the world!

Foreign health care experts point out we don't even have a recognizable health care system to begin with. We refuse to take ideas that are smart and innovative from other countries, because that would be an admission that we did not come up with it.

This is frakking crazy, but that is where we are now.

It is time to wake up and start competing again. The hey days of American superpower dominance are fading quickly, and if we want to still be relevant in the next century, then we had better start acting like it.

192 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:05:22pm

re: #187 garhighway

Here's something that's fun: Anthony Weiner and Megyn Kelly talking about Justice Thomas on Fox.

What's fun is Weiner's insistence that he actually gets to respond to the stuff Megyn says, and her reaction to that.

[Link: wonkette.com...]

Megyn Kelly is so off-putting I can't even watch her, sorta like Nancy Grace, just these vocal inflections that make you retch

193 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:05:31pm

re: #117 jamesfirecat

Permission to treat the witness as hostile your honor?

I do not advise yelling at a fetus in utero. Its mother will probably be somewhere close by, and might get you in the head with her handbag.

194 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:05:44pm

re: #186 garhighway

All anecdotal.

No real data.

Fail.

re: #186 garhighway

All anecdotal.

No real data.

Fail.

You didn't read my 180

As you say, FAIL.

195 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:05:48pm

the long predicted breakup of the republican party into two mutually antagonistic sects inches closer

will the gop manage to get through 2012 as one party?

196 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:06:12pm

re: #18 LudwigVanQuixote

And here we see the plutocrats are losing control of the populist theocrstic base.

The question is:

Will the Teabags find that charismatic leader from out of nowhere to completely galvanize them?

Or,

Will the plutocrats remain in control?

Or,

Will the plutocrats over reach and find and pimp a charismatic leader in the false belief that person can be controlled?

None of the above. First, the premise is false. Plutocrats do not control the Republican party, nor, Soros-mongering to the contrary, do they control the Democratic party.

Yes, rich people do have an influence out of proportion to their double digit numerical power. But the middle class, and the upper middle class (let alone the barely rich) have, in the aggregate, far more money than the very rich.

It bears keeping in mind that the lower class, the lower middle class, and the middle class cast most of the votes, and that elections can tip against even the best-funded candidate.

Second, charismatic leadership requires for its success a charisma-tropic public. The U.S. offers no such public. We are not given to wild enthusiasms for our leaders. Quite the opposite. We are always dissatisfied, just more so at some times than at others. This isn't anything new; it's a stable feature of the national culture.

The news item around which this post is built is a case in point: tea party eminence is now not satisfied with mainstream Republican eminence. The feeling is surely mutual.

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:06:13pm

re: #126 WindUpBird

In other news, a lawyer for Focus On The Marriages called a G.I. Joe action figure (allegedly "Shipwreck") to the stand to report on the illicit activities of his child owner

In other news, Batman now has a Muslim sidekick, and there's an element in town that objects.

198 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:07:28pm

re: #196 lostlakehiker

Yes, rich people do have an influence out of proportion to their double digit numerical power. But the middle class, and the upper middle class (let alone the barely rich) have, in the aggregate, far more money than the very rich.

Mind defining these terms?

Kind of useless to talk about such divisions without making it clear what they are.

199 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:08:11pm

re: #180 researchokWaiting Your Turn: Wait Times for Health Care in Canada 2010 ReportPlease understand I am for health care reform.

My point is that I believe Obama hit the nail on the head if gives local governments the wherewithal to deal with health care as best serves their needs. In looking at the 'one size fits all model', it is clear he has drawn his own conclusions

Clicked on the this link. You do realize that The Fraser Institute is Canada's equivalent of The Cato Institute or The American Enterprise Institute?

They are unutterably opposed to Canada's health care system and wish us to adopt the US system. The one every here is pretty much saying is all fucked up.

Plus the health care system here in Canada is suffering the same problem abortion is in the US. Governments opposed to it keep coming into power. As with abortion they don't destroy it, but they chip away at it. The result is it doesn't work nearly as well.

It's their plan and there are enough short sighted voters that they can get away with it.

200 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:08:20pm

re: #131 researchok

So patients crossing into the US for medical services isn't an indicator of problems with the Canadian health care system?

Wait times for surgery aren't an issue?

Medical clinics at border cities aren't there to service a real need?

MRI's in Canada can entail a 21 week wait. Not so good.

Canadian politicians often forgo the health care system for American and/or private care.

I could go on and on.

There is no Garden of Eden in Canada when it comes to medical care.

There are some good things and there are some not so good things.

if you had close relatives and friends who were actual canadians, you wouldn't have been mislead as you have been

the one thing they say they are the most afraid of is that the canadian health care sytem might be made more like the american

201 Interesting Times  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:08:58pm

re: #180 researchok

Most of these links are from the Fraser Institute, the Canadian equivalent of a Koch-style front like the Heritage Foundation or Americans for Prosperity. If they told me the sky was blue, I'd have to look out the window to check.

202 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:09:15pm

re: #128 jamesfirecat

The lawyer then provided the witness with an even smaller doll so that it could show exactly where it had been touched...

Oh dear. If they start calling Barbies to testify about sexual abuse, the little girls of America will have their covers so blown.

"Sugar and spice and everything nice INDEED, your honor! I rest my case."

203 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:09:36pm

re: #196 lostlakehiker

None of the above. First, the premise is false. Plutocrats do not control the Republican party.

coulda fooled me

did you double check?

204 celticdragon  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:09:37pm

re: #188 WindUpBird

I agree they mean business! Much the same way that children mean business when they get mad and break stuff. But it's not in the GOP's interests for that to happen.

You haven't noticed that the concept of rational gain/loss is no longer really operating in the GOP? Isn't that sort of the point of this thread?

205 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:09:42pm

re: #129 iossarian

Again, this is an unsubstantiated claim.

People who have experienced both European and US health systems tend to favor the former, by a wide margin.

A big part of the problem in the US with public perception of how we might do things differently is that so few people have ever lived abroad, so they really have no first-hand experience of what other systems might actually feel like.

I've been on NHS. Worked fine for me.

206 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:09:55pm

re: #180 researchok

Sure, start here.

Waiting Your Turn: Wait Times for Health Care in Canada 2010 Report

Statistics Show Canadian Healthcare Is Inferior to American System

Surgical wait times jump to 18.2 weeks, second longest ever as all provinces record greater delays for treatment

Canadian health care wait times highest for orthopaedic surgery procedures

Quebec's Wait Times for Surgery Jump to More Than 18 Weeks, Two Weeks Longer Than in 2009

Canadians visit U.S. to get health care

CANADA'S EXPECTANT MOMS HEADING TO U.S. TO DELIVER

Please understand I am for health care reform.

My point is that I believe Obama hit the nail on the head if gives local governments the wherewithal to deal with health care as best serves their needs. In looking at the 'one size fits all model', it is clear he has drawn his own conclusions

First link

"This January, the ombudsman ruled in Aucoin’s favor, awarding her the cost of treatment. She represents a dramatic new trend in Canadian health-care advocacy: finding the treatment you need in another country, and then fighting Canadian bureaucrats (and often suing) to get them to pick up the tab."

First link is now invalid since once again all you're showing is that the US is better IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY!

Second link doesn't talk about comparable wait times in America so there's no control group to measure your results against.

Third link has the same problem more or less what is this "median clinic" the Canadian results are being compared against?


Fourth link, once again I don't see comparison against US times if they're in there please point them out to me....

Fifth link: AGAIN NO COMPARISON TO WAIT TIMES IN THE US!

Sixth link: Is there a comparison to the US in this data? Because I don't see it....

Seventh link

""I go to the hospital in Windsor and two hours later, I'm done having angioplasty in Detroit," he said. His $38,000 bill was covered by the Ontario health ministry."

Oh hey look at that, once again COST IS NOT AN ISSUE IN THIS STORY!

"as well as people who pay out of pocket to avoid waiting in Canada."

Okay that's nice, BUT IT DOESN'T TALK AT ALL ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN QUESTION AND WHAT THEIR FINANCIAL STATUS IS!

Last link

"The cost of these airlifts and treatments, paid to U.S. hospitals by the province under Canada's universal health care system, runs upwards of $1,000 a child."

Oh hey once again Canada is picking up the tab and not the patients!

Every one of your links fails!

207 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:09:56pm

re: #199 Romantic Heretic

Waiting Your Turn: Wait Times for Health Care in Canada 2010 ReportPlease understand I am for health care reform.

My point is that I believe Obama hit the nail on the head if gives local governments the wherewithal to deal with health care as best serves their needs. In looking at the 'one size fits all model', it is clear he has drawn his own conclusions

Clicked on the this link. You do realize that The Fraser Institute is Canada's equivalent of The Cato Institute or The American Enterprise Institute?

They are unutterably opposed to Canada's health care system and wish us to adopt the US system. The one every here is pretty much saying is all fucked up.

Plus the health care system here in Canada is suffering the same problem abortion is in the US. Governments opposed to it keep coming into power. As with abortion they don't destroy it, but they chip away at it. The result is it doesn't work nearly as well.

It's their plan and there are enough short sighted voters that they can get away with it.


You don't like their politics so the hard number research is worthless?

208 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:13:37pm

re: #180 researchok

Sure, start here.

Waiting Your Turn: Wait Times for Health Care in Canada 2010 Report

Statistics Show Canadian Healthcare Is Inferior to American System

Surgical wait times jump to 18.2 weeks, second longest ever as all provinces record greater delays for treatment

Canadian health care wait times highest for orthopaedic surgery procedures

Quebec's Wait Times for Surgery Jump to More Than 18 Weeks, Two Weeks Longer Than in 2009

Canadians visit U.S. to get health care

CANADA'S EXPECTANT MOMS HEADING TO U.S. TO DELIVER

Please understand I am for health care reform.

My point is that I believe Obama hit the nail on the head if gives local governments the wherewithal to deal with health care as best serves their needs. In looking at the 'one size fits all model', it is clear he has drawn his own conclusions

how about this:

MILLIONS OF CHILDREN HAVE NO HEALTH INSURANCE AT ALL IN THE UNITED STATES AND WILL DIE FROM NEGLECT

209 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:14:25pm

re: #198 Obdicut

Mind defining these terms?

Kind of useless to talk about such divisions without making it clear what they are.

I read everyday here about how taxing the "rich" will solve our financial issues. You never asked them to define "rich". Why the double standard?

210 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:15:38pm

re: #209 rwdflynavy

I read everyday here about how taxing the "rich" will solve our financial issues. You never asked them to define "rich". Why the double standard?

People making more than $10 million dollars.

That was easy.

211 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:16:39pm

re: #206 jamesfirecat

First link

"This January, the ombudsman ruled in Aucoin’s favor, awarding her the cost of treatment. She represents a dramatic new trend in Canadian health-care advocacy: finding the treatment you need in another country, and then fighting Canadian bureaucrats (and often suing) to get them to pick up the tab."

First link is now invalid since once again all you're showing is that the US is better IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY!

Second link doesn't talk about comparable wait times in America so there's no control group to measure your results against.

Third link has the same problem more or less what is this "median clinic" the Canadian results are being compared against?

Fourth link, once again I don't see comparison against US times if they're in there please point them out to me...

Fifth link: AGAIN NO COMPARISON TO WAIT TIMES IN THE US!

Sixth link: Is there a comparison to the US in this data? Because I don't see it...

Seventh link

""I go to the hospital in Windsor and two hours later, I'm done having angioplasty in Detroit," he said. His $38,000 bill was covered by the Ontario health ministry."

Oh hey look at that, once again COST IS NOT AN ISSUE IN THIS STORY!

"as well as people who pay out of pocket to avoid waiting in Canada."

Okay that's nice, BUT IT DOESN'T TALK AT ALL ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN QUESTION AND WHAT THEIR FINANCIAL STATUS IS!

Last link

"The cost of these airlifts and treatments, paid to U.S. hospitals by the province under Canada's universal health care system, runs upwards of $1,000 a child."

Oh hey once again Canada is picking up the tab and not the patients!

Every one of your links fails!

James-

The right to seek health care outside the country/health care system is new. It was challenged in Quebec and the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that Canadians have the right to seek any health care they can.

That the Canadian government may at times pick up the cost of treatment outside the country is admirable.

You are right to note there is no comparison with US wait times. That said, I would imagine the wait times here are shorter (can you imagine the tantrums if they weren't!)

Now, I never said cost was the only issue- I was also referring to the quality of care.

Overall, the issue of health care reform isn't black and white and I don't see a magic bullet on the horizon. However, as I noted, I believe Obama may be on to something recognizing one size does not fit all.

212 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:16:51pm

re: #159 wozzablog

When i was in America - even the most well informed people i spoke to had no idea of the true nature of the UK system and how badly off they were by comparrison - even with "good" plans.

Optometry - in reach of everyone.
Dental - in reach of everyone.
General Practice - in reach of everyone.
Physiotherapy - £40 a session
Drugs - £7.50 per scrip

Before I left to do grad school in England, I called the consulate to ask about health coverage.

That's when I found out how NHS worked. I'd been aware of it, but I assumed you had to be a citizen.

The conversation that followed was completely mortifying.

213 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:17:19pm

re: #209 rwdflynavy

I read everyday here about how taxing the "rich" will solve our financial issues. You never asked them to define "rich". Why the double standard?

1) i don't believe anybody ever said it would "solve our financial issues"

2) how about 'makes over $500k/yr' for starters?

214 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:18:26pm

re: #206 jamesfirecat

First link

"This January, the ombudsman ruled in Aucoin’s favor, awarding her the cost of treatment. She represents a dramatic new trend in Canadian health-care advocacy: finding the treatment you need in another country, and then fighting Canadian bureaucrats (and often suing) to get them to pick up the tab."

First link is now invalid since once again all you're showing is that the US is better IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY!

Second link doesn't talk about comparable wait times in America so there's no control group to measure your results against.

Third link has the same problem more or less what is this "median clinic" the Canadian results are being compared against?

Fourth link, once again I don't see comparison against US times if they're in there please point them out to me...

Fifth link: AGAIN NO COMPARISON TO WAIT TIMES IN THE US!

Sixth link: Is there a comparison to the US in this data? Because I don't see it...

Seventh link

""I go to the hospital in Windsor and two hours later, I'm done having angioplasty in Detroit," he said. His $38,000 bill was covered by the Ontario health ministry."

Oh hey look at that, once again COST IS NOT AN ISSUE IN THIS STORY!

"as well as people who pay out of pocket to avoid waiting in Canada."

Okay that's nice, BUT IT DOESN'T TALK AT ALL ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN QUESTION AND WHAT THEIR FINANCIAL STATUS IS!

Last link

"The cost of these airlifts and treatments, paid to U.S. hospitals by the province under Canada's universal health care system, runs upwards of $1,000 a child."

Oh hey once again Canada is picking up the tab and not the patients!

Every one of your links fails!

I don't trust giant rows of links about health care from conservatives, because this always happens, the links never add up

After working in the health care field for almost all of my adult life, and being around a dozen people all the time who have worked in health care their adult lives, I have seen all the conservative talking points, every single one

215 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:18:59pm

re: #211 researchok

You are right to note there is no comparison with US wait times. That said, I would imagine the wait times here are shorter (can you imagine the tantrums if they weren't!)

what do you suppose the 'wait time' is if you have no insurance?

this is the only country in the world where there are children with no health insurance

216 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:19:43pm

re: #180 researchok

More:

Most of those links lead to the Frasier Institute, or people using Fraser Institute data. That, to me, means the data is severely flawed. It was gathered not to ask the question, "How is the Canadian Health system working?" It was gathered to prove, "The Canadian health care system is fucked up beyond repair and we must use the system of our heroes, the United States of America, as visualized by the Republican Party."

I don't regard the article about Ontario hospitals using American hospitals for some services as a sign of failure. As intelligent instead. The American hospitals provide the same service as Canadian, but they are closer geographically than the Canadian ones. That saves time and money for the patients. Travelling from Windsor to Toronto is easily an overnight trip. To Detroit, an afternoon.

The last link lead to The Ministry of Truth. I trust them no more than I trust Pravda or Izvestia under the Politburo.

Sorry. I have personal experience with the Canadian healthcare system, and everyone I know has it as well. No complaints that I've ever heard.

217 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:19:57pm

re: #201 publicityStunted

Most of these links are from the Fraser Institute, the Canadian equivalent of a Koch-style front like the Heritage Foundation or Americans for Prosperity. If they told me the sky was blue, I'd have to look out the window to check.

I don't know enough about their politics but they don't seem to fudging the numbers. They are repeated elsewhere by others.

Still, health care is a hot button issue. There is no one size fits all and there is no perfect system.

In a lot of ways it really is a most local of issues.

218 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:20:36pm

re: #190 Simply Sarah

Ah, no. What I meant is that those were some of the things you'd need to do if you insisted on "health insurance" as the main method of running payments for health care. I don't entirely blame the insurance companies, in that they're basically doing things as would be expected in a for-profit "free market" health insurance world. It's just that the reality of that isn't pretty.

There is a place for "for profit" insurance, for example covering voluntary things like oil spills or sky diving or driving, but when it comes to social coverage of things like health or hurricanes that affect an entire nation if only indirectly, then it would be better named as a sharing of risk.

I sometimes wonder why Republicans have not called for the abolition of FEMA Flood Insurance, which is about as socialist a single provider system as one can imagine.

219 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:21:29pm

re: #214 WindUpBird

I don't trust giant rows of links about health care from conservatives, because this always happens, the links never add up

After working in the health care field for almost all of my adult life, and being around a dozen people all the time who have worked in health care their adult lives, I have seen all the conservative talking points, every single one

Are you saying you don't trust the numbers because I posted them or because some of the links are from purportedly conservative sources?

220 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:21:36pm

re: #211 researchok

James-

The right to seek health care outside the country/health care system is new. It was challenged in Quebec and the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that Canadians have the right to seek any health care they can.

That the Canadian government may at times pick up the cost of treatment outside the country is admirable.

You are right to note there is no comparison with US wait times. That said, I would imagine the wait times here are shorter (can you imagine the tantrums if they weren't!)

Now, I never said cost was the only issue- I was also referring to the quality of care.

Overall, the issue of health care reform isn't black and white and I don't see a magic bullet on the horizon. However, as I noted, I believe Obama may be on to something recognizing one size does not fit all.

"You are right to note there is no comparison with US wait times. That said, I would imagine the wait times here are shorter"

Sorry, but what you "imagine" is not a convincing argument.

I will agree with you the ultra premium deluxe tycoon wash service healthcare that US hospitals are capable of providing is of better quality than anything you would find in Canada or the UK, the problem is how many people can afford that level of healthcare?


The problem is that how many people in the US can afford that level of health care?

So far I'm not seeing anything that clearly paints the run of the mill US healthcare as better than its Canadian version and a fair amount to say that it is worse....

221 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:21:57pm

re: #218 Naso Tang

There is a place for "for profit" insurance, for example covering voluntary things like oil spills or sky diving or driving, but when it comes to social coverage of things like health or hurricanes that affect an entire nation if only indirectly, then it would be better named as a sharing of risk.

I sometimes wonder why Republicans have not called for the abolition of FEMA Flood Insurance, which is about as socialist a single provider system as one can imagine.

For-profit insurance only works when you're dealing with something that can properly be insured (My father works in life insurance, which, granted, is also different than most types of insurance). Health care isn't on of those things.

222 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:22:00pm

re: #213 engineer dog

1) i don't believe anybody ever said it would "solve our financial issues"

2) how about 'makes over $500k/yr' for starters?

I would like to hear who actually said anything like 1)


Personally, I think our financial issues are sorta related to all that financial malfeasance I read about in the papers not so long ago, primarily in housing loans and banking. You know, that stuff Canada isn't dealing with because their system was actually regulated?

Oh yeah, and our defense spending, but we all already knew that :)

223 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:22:23pm

re: #177 webevintage

It really does not matter if Canada and the UK and most of Europe have healthcare systems that are not perfect...what matters is how bad ours sucks in comparison to theirs.
And not in how well we treat the middle and upper class (they, for the most part get phenomenal care) or even the poor who use their medicaide properly. I'm talking about the middle, the working class and the lower middle class and the self employed.
These are the folks our health care system hurts...
They just don't avail themselves of it. They only go if they are so sick they can't work.
They wait until it is too late.

(do you know that we hoard antibiotics at our house? mostly ones we have gotten from the vet for various animals but never finish. You never know when you might get an infection and can't get into the Dr. or clinic)

How can you tell if it's strep throat or just a regular sore throat from coughing? Do you know which antibiotics are effective against giardia (most aren't.) Do you know that "too late" can come in a matter of hours, with bacterial meningitis---or MRSA? Do you know how difficult it can be, even for a medical professional, to diagnose appendicitis? Or how much worse it gets if not caught before the thing ruptures?

That for viral infections, antibiotics are generally useless?

That most people, (even, until recently at any rate, most hospital employees) take hand washing less seriously than is ideal and prudent?

If you absolutely have to cut corners, it'd be a good idea to read up on these kinds of things.

Most sickness and illness in the U.S. is lifestyle related. [Recent study: Americans are fatter than Canadians. Even if you "correct" for the demographic differences.] You can do more for your own health, for free, when it comes to lifestyle issues, than any medical system in the world can do to patch up the consequences.

If you've done all that and it just comes down to money, there's no shame in asking for help. I hope you get it. If LGF gets the call, count me in.

224 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:22:25pm

re: #215 engineer dog

what do you suppose the 'wait time' is if you have no insurance?

this is the only country in the world where there are children with no health insurance

Oh that's not true! I'm pretty sure Somalia doesn't have health insurance :D

225 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:22:49pm

re: #215 engineer dog

what do you suppose the 'wait time' is if you have no insurance?

this is the only country in the world where there are children with no health insurance

Well, if they worked harder at finding a nice non-union job with benefits, they wouldn't have that problem, now would they?
/

226 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:24:45pm

re: #215 engineer dog

what do you suppose the 'wait time' is if you have no insurance?

this is the only country in the world where there are children with no health insurance

I have not understood this statement whenever I hear it. Is this not the same as saying there are adults without health insurance, since if they had insurance their children would be covered?

Is there insurance for children only, but not the parents? Under what circumstances can a parent get insurance but be denied it for their children?

227 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:25:23pm

re: #216 Romantic Heretic

More:

Most of those links lead to the Frasier Institute, or people using Fraser Institute data. That, to me, means the data is severely flawed. It was gathered not to ask the question, "How is the Canadian Health system working?" It was gathered to prove, "The Canadian health care system is fucked up beyond repair and we must use the system of our heroes, the United States of America, as visualized by the Republican Party."

I don't regard the article about Ontario hospitals using American hospitals for some services as a sign of failure. As intelligent instead. The American hospitals provide the same service as Canadian, but they are closer geographically than the Canadian ones. That saves time and money for the patients. Travelling from Windsor to Toronto is easily an overnight trip. To Detroit, an afternoon.

The last link lead to The Ministry of Truth. I trust them no more than I trust Pravda or Izvestia under the Politburo.

Sorry. I have personal experience with the Canadian healthcare system, and everyone I know has it as well. No complaints that I've ever heard.

I have no experience with Canadian health care, only with the NHS, so in that sense you're closer than I am.

Still, the fact that the Fraser Institute might be right of center doesn't necessarily mean their numbers are off. Others appear to have validated their findings.

As I have been saying all along, there is no single magic bullet when it comes to health care. Population, distances and other variables play a huge role.

That's why I like Obama's recent proposal. It acknowledges the truth that a one size fits all system doesn't work.

228 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:26:24pm

By the way, a 'Penny a Pill' tax would go a long way in funding comprehensive health care reform.

229 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:28:32pm

all of these "proofs" that we shouldn't improve our health insurance system so that it isn't horribly fucked up amount to two arguments:

1. health insurance systems in other countries are less than absolutely perfect

2. people with plenty of cash might elect to come to america to benefit from our first class medical attention. the fact that most americans can't afford to get this care doesn't seem to factor in to the question...

230 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:29:39pm

re: #207 researchok

You don't like their politics so the hard number research is worthless?

I don't trust their 'hard number research'. They are not a neutral observer. They have a political agenda.

Find me some hard number research by a source without an axe to grind and I'll believe it.

231 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:29:46pm

Also, don't forget when the GOPdemanded that Medicare pay more for prescription drugs, because it wouldn't be fair for the government to negotiate with manufactures on pricing.

232 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:29:57pm

re: #228 researchok

By the way, a 'Penny a Pill' tax would go a long way in funding comprehensive health care reform.

So would a penny a cigarette. A Penny per piece of gum. A penny a gallon of gas, but that is a tax and we can't have taxes paying for things, can we?//

233 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:30:10pm

re: #220 jamesfirecat

"You are right to note there is no comparison with US wait times. That said, I would imagine the wait times here are shorter"

Sorry, but what you "imagine" is not a convincing argument.

I will agree with you the ultra premium deluxe tycoon wash service healthcare that US hospitals are capable of providing is of better quality than anything you would find in Canada or the UK, the problem is how many people can afford that level of healthcare?

The problem is that how many people in the US can afford that level of health care?

So far I'm not seeing anything that clearly paints the run of the mill US healthcare as better than its Canadian version and a fair amount to say that it is worse...

All true- but is our system worse when all is said and done?

There are both federal and state provisions for the uninsured to receive health care and no one is ever turned away from a county hospital (or any hospital if the condition is serious). Here in Raleigh, there was a big brouhaha because an undocumented alien got a liver transplant gratis and then was paid a fortune because of subsequent problems

234 Gus  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:30:19pm

This says a lot more about the Tea Party than it does about John Boehner. Of course this something we've known all along. The Tea Party will once again promote another off kilter candidate like Sharon Angle or Christine O'Donnell to run against Boehner. While Boehner may seem to extreme for some on the left this shows now shows that he is not extreme enough for those on the right. Boehner has been on the Hill for many years now and is probably only displaying a realism based on his experience. In the meantime the Tea Party is going to continue to wish for their wingnut Unicorns.

235 researchok  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:30:22pm

BBL

236 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:32:34pm

re: #198 Obdicut

Mind defining these terms?

Kind of useless to talk about such divisions without making it clear what they are.

Barely rich: 95th percentile to 99.9 percentile.
Upper Middle class: 85 percentile to 95th.
Middle class: 50 to 85.
Lower Middle: 25 to 50.
Lower: less than that.

This is rough and ready and other people might define the terms differently. Asked again, I'd probably give a somewhat different answer.

From year to year, people move back and forth from one quintile to the next, and they'd also move back and forth across these boundaries.

But I don't agree that it's useless to talk about such divisions without putting numbers to them. In making the observation in those terms, I'm saying that I don't think it much matters where you put the dividing bars, within reason...you'll get roughly the same answer anyhow.

237 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:32:45pm

re: #226 Naso Tang

I have not understood this statement whenever I hear it. Is this not the same as saying there are adults without health insurance, since if they had insurance their children would be covered?

Is there insurance for children only, but not the parents? Under what circumstances can a parent get insurance but be denied it for their children?

the thing about obama's health insurance reform bill that i like the most is that it requires companies to provide insurance regardless of pre-existing conditions and without lifetime coverage limits - starting in 2014

for children, this has already gone into effect

so, yes, this fixes situations where the children of people with health insurance were denied insurance because they had pre-existing conditions or had reached a lifetime coverage limit, even though the parents could still get insurance

BUT THE FACT THAT IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THERE ARE CHILDREN WITHOUT HEALTH INSURANCE OR OTHERWISE ARE IMPEDED FROM GETTING THE BEST MEDICAL CARE POSSIBLE IS SHAMEFUL

238 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:33:49pm

re: #236 lostlakehiker

So your plan for avoiding the problem of shrinking middle class is to define middle class in a manner that actually prevents it from shrinking. Brilliant!

239 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:34:33pm

re: #231 Simply Sarah

Also, don't forget when the GOPdemanded that Medicare pay more for prescription drugs, because it wouldn't be fair for the government to negotiate with manufactures on pricing.

ding ding ding ding!

george bush was actually prepared to expand medicare, as long as it kept seniors from buying the same drugs from canada at half price!

240 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:35:58pm

re: #239 engineer dog

ding ding ding ding!

george bush was actually prepared to expand medicare, as long as it kept seniors from buying the same drugs from canada at half price!

We refuse to ensure all Americans have access to health care, but we have no problem subsidizing drugs for the rest of the world.

241 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:36:34pm

re: #226 Naso Tang

I have not understood this statement whenever I hear it. Is this not the same as saying there are adults without health insurance, since if they had insurance their children would be covered?

Is there insurance for children only, but not the parents? Under what circumstances can a parent get insurance but be denied it for their children?


yes, there's insurance for children only, in Oregon, under OHP:

Healthy Kids

Healthy Kids is new program offering free or low-cost health care coverage for Oregon children who don’t have health insurance. Even kids with pre-existing health conditions can enroll. Coverage lasts for at least one full year and can be longer so long as the child is still eligible.

Healthy Kids is based on a family’s income and there are three health coverage options: no-cost, low-cost and affordable.

Who is eligible?
Three key things determine if your child qualifies for no-cost or low-cost coverage:

Age - Child must be under the age of 19 (19th birthday)
Residency - Child must live in Oregon and be a legal resident
Income
Your child must have been without health insurance for two months. However, there are exceptions to this rule for special circumstances, like a parent’s job loss or a child’s serious medical need.

242 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:36:56pm

re: #234 Gus 802

This says a lot more about the Tea Party than it does about John Boehner. Of course this something we've known all along. The Tea Party will once again promote another off kilter candidate like Sharon Angle or Christine O'Donnell to run against Boehner. While Boehner may seem to extreme for some on the left this shows now shows that he is not extreme enough for those on the right. Boehner has been on the Hill for many years now and is probably only displaying a realism based on his experience. In the meantime the Tea Party is going to continue to wish for their wingnut Unicorns.

I didn't really expect the honeymoon to last overly long to begin with. The GOP leadership was too eager to sign on the dotted line with the Tea Party to take time to read the fine print. Now they're left with two shitty choices: Bend to the Tea Party's whims and slowly low the independent vote or go with reasonable moves and have the Tea Party split the party apart by trying to primary out everybody who won't dance to their tune.

243 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:39:53pm

re: #236 lostlakehiker

Barely rich: 95th percentile to 99.9 percentile.
Upper Middle class: 85 percentile to 95th.
Middle class: 50 to 85.
Lower Middle: 25 to 50.
Lower: less than that.

This is rough and ready and other people might define the terms differently. Asked again, I'd probably give a somewhat different answer.

From year to year, people move back and forth from one quintile to the next, and they'd also move back and forth across these boundaries.

But I don't agree that it's useless to talk about such divisions without putting numbers to them. In making the observation in those terms, I'm saying that I don't think it much matters where you put the dividing bars, within reason...you'll get roughly the same answer anyhow.

"percentile" means nothing, why don't we talk $$?

or does that weaken the argument, to talk about millionaires as "barely rich"?

The top one percent in America owns nearly 40% of American wealth, but they're not "rich?"


In the United States at the end of 2001, 10% of the population owned 71% of the wealth and the top 1% owned 38%. On the other hand, the bottom 40% owned less than 1% of the nation's wealth.[13]
According to this 2006 study by the Federal Reserve System, from 1989 to 2004, the distribution in the United States had been changing with indications there was a greater concentration of wealth held by the top 10% and top 1% of the population.[1]

But they're not "rich"

244 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:40:10pm

re: #231 Simply Sarah

Also, don't forget when the GOPdemanded that Medicare pay more for prescription drugs, because it wouldn't be fair for the government to negotiate with manufactures on pricing.


Negotiate?

A pharmaceutical company cannot negotiate with the government. It must simply do as ordered, and if the price that the government negotiates [orders] is less than what is required to maintain an R&D program, that R&D program withers. Pharmaceutical companies don't excite the stock market...because their current prices are insufficient to throw off attractive profits while maintaining R&D so that those profits can be sustained.

The U.S. is at the leading edge in pharmaceutical research for a reason. European nations have already negotiated with their pharmaceutical companies.

What the Left forgets is that bacteria also have their own, massively parallel, R&D effort. If we don't match it, we lose. Bit by bit, all our current arsenal of antibiotics loses its effectiveness.

245 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:41:28pm

re: #236 lostlakehiker

Barely rich: 95th percentile to 99.9 percentile.
Upper Middle class: 85 percentile to 95th.
Middle class: 50 to 85.
Lower Middle: 25 to 50.
Lower: less than that.

according to the information most easily accessed on the web, the people above 'barely rich' in your estimation - the top 0.1 percentile - are making over $1.6 million/yr

does anybody have the figure at hand for what percentage of total american earnings the top 1% and 0.1% make?

246 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:42:36pm

re: #228 researchok

By the way, a 'Penny a Pill' tax would go a long way in funding comprehensive health care reform.

How about 5% across the board on soda and junk food, that'd go even further

247 Gus  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:42:43pm

re: #242 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I didn't really expect the honeymoon to last overly long to begin with. The GOP leadership was too eager to sign on the dotted line with the Tea Party to take time to read the fine print. Now they're left with two shitty choices: Bend to the Tea Party's whims and slowly low the independent vote or go with reasonable moves and have the Tea Party split the party apart by trying to primary out everybody who won't dance to their tune.

If the GOP goes moderate or "reasonable" as you note I think it would be more beneficial for the future of the GOP. They will be able to attract not only independents but some Democrats as has happened in the past. If they go with the Tea Party in the long run they'll lose. I imagine this is pretty similar to what Democrats have to face when dealing with those that are more towards the left in their base.

248 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:43:13pm

re: #244 lostlakehiker

Negotiate?

A pharmaceutical company cannot negotiate with the government. It must simply do as ordered, and if the price that the government negotiates [orders] is less than what is required to maintain an R&D program, that R&D program withers. Pharmaceutical companies don't excite the stock market...because their current prices are insufficient to throw off attractive profits while maintaining R&D so that those profits can be sustained.

The U.S. is at the leading edge in pharmaceutical research for a reason. European nations have already negotiated with their pharmaceutical companies.

What the Left forgets is that bacteria also have their own, massively parallel, R&D effort. If we don't match it, we lose. Bit by bit, all our current arsenal of antibiotics loses its effectiveness.

So...it's OK for every other developed country in the world to negotiate prices, but the U.S. can't because, what, we're special? You're saying that the only options are the U.S. gets whatever price it asks or pays whatever the drug companies request? No give and take? Really?

249 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:44:28pm

re: #244 lostlakehiker

A pharmaceutical company cannot negotiate with the government.

um, bush's medicare drug benefit law specifically states that the federal government MUST NOT negotiate the price of the drugs that it subsidizes under medicare

there have been attempts to change this law SO THAT WE CAN GET COSTS UNDER CONTROL, but republicans have fought back on these attempts since controlling drug costs in medicare is apparently not important

250 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:45:06pm

re: #238 Simply Sarah

So your plan for avoiding the problem of shrinking middle class is to define middle class in a manner that actually prevents it from shrinking. Brilliant!

I would say that the very notion of "middle" precludes it from shrinking. Just as that fraction of the population that has "above median" income is always 50 percent.

If we define "middle class" to mean "can afford the emblems of yesteryear's middle class, i.e. a car, a black and white TV or at least a radio, and indoor plumbing and electricity, then our poor are mostly "upper middle class". The nation has enjoyed spectacular material progress over the last 50 and 100 years. This has just moved the bar for what counts as "middle class". Because, surprise, middle means middle.

251 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:45:20pm

re: #249 engineer dog

um, bush's medicare drug benefit law specifically states that the federal government MUST NOT negotiate the price of the drugs that it subsidizes under medicare

there have been attempts to change this law SO THAT WE CAN GET COSTS UNDER CONTROL, but republicans have fought back on these attempts since controlling drug costs in medicare is apparently not important

The GOP and the government: "If it ain't broke, we can fix that."

252 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:45:20pm

re: #244 lostlakehiker

Negotiate?

A pharmaceutical company cannot negotiate with the government. It must simply do as ordered, and if the price that the government negotiates [orders] is less than what is required to maintain an R&D program, that R&D program withers. Pharmaceutical companies don't excite the stock market...because their current prices are insufficient to throw off attractive profits while maintaining R&D so that those profits can be sustained.

The U.S. is at the leading edge in pharmaceutical research for a reason. European nations have already negotiated with their pharmaceutical companies.

What the Left forgets is that bacteria also have their own, massively parallel, R&D effort. If we don't match it, we lose. Bit by bit, all our current arsenal of antibiotics loses its effectiveness.

My concern isn't with pharmeceutical companies, it's insurance companies. pharma MAKES A PRODUCT, Insurance companies are middle men, parasites, garbage that introduces no value, nothing but waste

And downding for the bolded shit, EVERY SINGLE NURSE I KNOW is a member of "The Left" and they could all lecture you into the ground about bacteria and drug-resistant TB and vaccine effectiveness

253 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:46:13pm

re: #250 lostlakehiker

I would say that the very notion of "middle" precludes it from shrinking. Just as that fraction of the population that has "above median" income is always 50 percent.

If we define "middle class" to mean "can afford the emblems of yesteryear's middle class, i.e. a car, a black and white TV or at least a radio, and indoor plumbing and electricity, then our poor are mostly "upper middle class". The nation has enjoyed spectacular material progress over the last 50 and 100 years. This has just moved the bar for what counts as "middle class". Because, surprise, middle means middle.


Oh, semantic games that ignore the truth, how I love thee

254 dragonfire1981  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:46:16pm

The problem is Boehner alone is not responsible for the federal budget. Any budgetbill still has to go through the democratic controlled senate and Obama himself.
There's no way they'd ever allow a tea party style budget with massive cuts to ever pass.

255 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:46:46pm

re: #250 lostlakehiker

I would say that the very notion of "middle" precludes it from shrinking. Just as that fraction of the population that has "above median" income is always 50 percent.

If we define "middle class" to mean "can afford the emblems of yesteryear's middle class, i.e. a car, a black and white TV or at least a radio, and indoor plumbing and electricity, then our poor are mostly "upper middle class". The nation has enjoyed spectacular material progress over the last 50 and 100 years. This has just moved the bar for what counts as "middle class". Because, surprise, middle means middle.


So what does the top .1% of America make?

And what does the top 1% of America make?

And how come the latter isn't considered rich?

256 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:47:47pm

Remember kids, THE LEFT! The Left doesn't understand anything, even though they're the people keeping your dumb ass alive in the ER when you're about to bleed out


THE LEFT

257 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:48:05pm

re: #250 lostlakehiker

I would say that the very notion of "middle" precludes it from shrinking. Just as that fraction of the population that has "above median" income is always 50 percent.

If we define "middle class" to mean "can afford the emblems of yesteryear's middle class, i.e. a car, a black and white TV or at least a radio, and indoor plumbing and electricity, then our poor are mostly "upper middle class". The nation has enjoyed spectacular material progress over the last 50 and 100 years. This has just moved the bar for what counts as "middle class". Because, surprise, middle means middle.

Uh, percentiles aren't how anyone that is actually serious about things would define the middle class. By that concept. 0.001% of the country could earn %99.9 of the wealth and the rest could work for a penny a month and they'd still qualify as "middle class".

258 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:48:15pm

re: #250 lostlakehiker

I would say that the very notion of "middle" precludes it from shrinking. Just as that fraction of the population that has "above median" income is always 50 percent.

If we define "middle class" to mean "can afford the emblems of yesteryear's middle class, i.e. a car, a black and white TV or at least a radio, and indoor plumbing and electricity, then our poor are mostly "upper middle class". The nation has enjoyed spectacular material progress over the last 50 and 100 years. This has just moved the bar for what counts as "middle class". Because, surprise, middle means middle.

if we define middle class to mean, as it did 50 years ago, that you could buy a suburban home and pay it off within 5-10 years, then there is no middle class in this country any longer

259 Targetpractice  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:49:44pm

re: #247 Gus 802

If the GOP goes moderate or "reasonable" as you note I think it would be more beneficial for the future of the GOP. They will be able to attract not only independents but some Democrats as has happened in the past. If they go with the Tea Party in the long run they'll lose. I imagine this is pretty similar to what Democrats have to face when dealing with those that are more towards the left in their base.

It's why I figure we'll see a rerun of '04 next year. If you remember, the Dems hitched their wagon initially to the "angry" Left, putting so much of their support behind ol' Howie "I have a SCREAM" Dean. They kept playing up how the voters were angry over how Bush was running things, angry over the direction of America, and how they were turning that anger into energy. Then Iowa happened, Dean imploded, and they had to settle for John F'n Kerry and how he was "Not Bush," which is not really all that great of a campaign to run on.

I figure that the Tea Partiers will gain initial momentum, throwing their weight behind a prominent member (not so sure about Palin, since she might decide that making money is too good to pursue the presidency this year), only for them to crash and burn in the primaries, resulting in settling for a "Not Obama" candidate with a Tea Partier in the VP spot as a "compromise" ballot.

260 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:50:09pm

re: #256 WindUpBird

Remember kids, THE LEFT! The Left doesn't understand anything, even though they're the people keeping your dumb ass alive in the ER when you're about to bleed out

THE LEFT

i wish there was some organized, coherent entity called THE LEFT, that had a definite agenda and worked together

it would make things a lot easier for all of us fractious unherded cats who tend to describe ourselves as progressives...

261 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:50:52pm

re: #250 lostlakehiker

I would say that the very notion of "middle" precludes it from shrinking. Just as that fraction of the population that has "above median" income is always 50 percent.

If we define "middle class" to mean "can afford the emblems of yesteryear's middle class, i.e. a car, a black and white TV or at least a radio, and indoor plumbing and electricity, then our poor are mostly "upper middle class". The nation has enjoyed spectacular material progress over the last 50 and 100 years. This has just moved the bar for what counts as "middle class". Because, surprise, middle means middle.

Material progress doesn't mean anything when both parents have to work, and have to work hard, and work overtime to make ends meet

Both parents NEED to work to raise a kid, a kid who doesn't have a whole lot of parenting because again...both parents working their ass off

Both parents together have a hard time affording health care. I've seen those parents! Parents with an income that in theory looks like it'd be middle class until you see how much of their money goes to health insurance

The real actual middle class is shrinking, and of course you know it, and of course your solution is some semantic tapdance to distract and obfuscate, which is how it always goes on the internet

262 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:51:32pm

re: #248 Simply Sarah

So...it's OK for every other developed country in the world to negotiate prices, but the U.S. can't because, what, we're special? You're saying that the only options are the U.S. gets whatever price it asks or pays whatever the drug companies request? No give and take? Really?

The rest of the world enjoys a free ride. We do the pharma R&D, give or take rounding errors.

I don't see how there can be any meaningful give and take. I can't negotiate with the IRS. Not unless I can prove that my house burned down and I sustained severe burns and the medical bills ate my tax money. In other words, you can't negotiate unless paying in full will kill you.

The constitution spells out protections connected to eminent domain seizures. The government must pay fair market value for what it requisitions. Why should pharmaceuticals be any different? And why, especially, should they be different, when our own long term prospects in the endless struggle with bacteria will take a turn for the worse if we choke off the money stream that funds the next new silver bullet?

263 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:52:05pm

re: #250 lostlakehiker

I would say that the very notion of "middle" precludes it from shrinking. Just as that fraction of the population that has "above median" income is always 50 percent.

If we define "middle class" to mean "can afford the emblems of yesteryear's middle class, i.e. a car, a black and white TV or at least a radio, and indoor plumbing and electricity, then our poor are mostly "upper middle class". The nation has enjoyed spectacular material progress over the last 50 and 100 years. This has just moved the bar for what counts as "middle class". Because, surprise, middle means middle.

if we define 'middle class' to mean, as it did 50 years ago, that you could afford to send your kids to college without a punishing long term loan, then there is no middle class anymore

264 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:52:22pm

re: #260 engineer dog

i wish there was some organized, coherent entity called THE LEFT, that had a definite agenda and worked together

it would make things a lot easier for all of us fractious unherded cats who tend to describe ourselves as progressives...

it's just retarded bullshit

Semantic garbage and non-facts, it's the same thing I always hear, avoid data, throw out numbers that themselves obfuscate data, make some joke-point that ignores reality

265 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:52:56pm

re: #263 engineer dog

if we define 'middle class' to mean, as it did 50 years ago, that you could afford to send your kids to college without a punishing long term loan, then there is no middle class anymore


BUT BUt but but BUT But material wealth!

The middle class has bigger TVs! That means they're doing great!

Fucking retarded

266 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:54:07pm

re: #262 lostlakehiker

The rest of the world enjoys a free ride. We do the pharma R&D, give or take rounding errors.

I don't see how there can be any meaningful give and take. I can't negotiate with the IRS. Not unless I can prove that my house burned down and I sustained severe burns and the medical bills ate my tax money. In other words, you can't negotiate unless paying in full will kill you.

The constitution spells out protections connected to eminent domain seizures. The government must pay fair market value for what it requisitions. Why should pharmaceuticals be any different? And why, especially, should they be different, when our own long term prospects in the endless struggle with bacteria will take a turn for the worse if we choke off the money stream that funds the next new silver bullet?

Well, then maybe we should stop taking it up that ass and say "If you want to make your money, you'll just have to charge people in other countries more, since we refuse to keep paying for them." I mean, doesn't what you just described sound kind of...socialist? Is American socialism OK, so long as it doesn't actually help Americans?

267 Gus  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:54:09pm

Bob Dole 2012!

//

268 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:55:29pm

re: #264 WindUpBird

it's just retarded bullshit

Semantic garbage and non-facts, it's the same thing I always hear, avoid data, throw out numbers that themselves obfuscate data, make some joke-point that ignores reality

roger that!

i spend way too much time dealing with the straw man 'liberal' that is so vigorously promoted by the right, that comes stuffed with a bunch of stoopid opinions that wingers are certain we all believe

269 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:56:32pm

I'd actually SUBSIDIZE big pharma, big pharma isn't the problem, uninsured, underinsured, people being trapped in garbage jobs (and thus retarding growth, innovation, small business, and freedom in general) because of the health insurance, people bankrupted because of their kids care

Those are pressing problems, this grandstanding about pharma is useless, it not the problem, it's a red herring

270 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:58:35pm

re: #269 WindUpBird

I'd actually SUBSIDIZE big pharma, big pharma isn't the problem, uninsured, underinsured, people being trapped in garbage jobs (and thus retarding growth, innovation, small business, and freedom in general) because of the health insurance, people bankrupted because of their kids care

Those are pressing problems, this grandstanding about pharma is useless, it not the problem, it's a red herring

Well, and the huge amounts of waste that goes into making sure we keep those people uncovered or undercovered, since paperwork and red tape is an expensive mess. And "options" only make that worse.

271 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 12:59:27pm

re: #262 lostlakehiker

The rest of the world enjoys a free ride. We do the pharma R&D, give or take rounding errors.

Roche is a Swiss firm, Glaxo is a British one.

Also the WHO says this

Private funding for R&D by the pharmaceutical industry is estimated to account for 42% of this total, slightly less than total public funding of health R&D by the high-income and transition countries. Private not-for-profit funding sources also make a measurable contribution to health R&D. In 1998, the two biggest were the Wellcome Trust (UK) and the Howard Hughes Medical Institute (USA). In 2000, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation was established in the USA, and has rapidly become a major source of global health research funds, spending over US$ 500 million on global health in 2002.

272 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:00:15pm

re: #258 engineer dog

if we define middle class to mean, as it did 50 years ago, that you could buy a suburban home and pay it off within 5-10 years, then there is no middle class in this country any longer

You do realize that those very homes are now scorned as sub-standard housing? That people occupy substantially more square feet of housing per capita than they did then?

That the government, in its determination to see to it that everyone could afford a home, fueled a bidding war with liar loans etc. that has not yet wound down?

Yesteryear's middle class made do without washing machines, air conditioning, and so forth, which were the province of the "barely rich". Today's middle range income sector has more "stuff', and better made stuff, than previous generations had.

Home computers, AC, watches that keep near perfect time, fabrics that last longer and shed rain better, autos that give better mileage and are safer, etc. etc.

273 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:01:30pm

re: #209 rwdflynavy

I read everyday here about how taxing the "rich" will solve our financial issues. You never asked them to define "rich". Why the double standard?

What on earth are you talking about? I generally see taxation arguments talking about specific incomes. When they don't, I often do ask people to define them.

274 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:04:11pm

re: #273 Obdicut

What on earth are you talking about? I generally see taxation arguments talking about specific incomes. When they don't, I often do ask people to define them.

This exactly

275 sizzleRI  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:05:16pm

re: #262 lostlakehiker

The rest of the world enjoys a free ride. We do the pharma R&D, give or take rounding errors.

I don't see how there can be any meaningful give and take. I can't negotiate with the IRS. Not unless I can prove that my house burned down and I sustained severe burns and the medical bills ate my tax money. In other words, you can't negotiate unless paying in full will kill you.

The constitution spells out protections connected to eminent domain seizures. The government must pay fair market value for what it requisitions. Why should pharmaceuticals be any different? And why, especially, should they be different, when our own long term prospects in the endless struggle with bacteria will take a turn for the worse if we choke off the money stream that funds the next new silver bullet?

You're absolutely right that the rest of the world gets a free ride. But not off our pharmaceutical companies when it comes to antibiotics. There is no money, and often a loss, to develop antibiotics because per patient they are a one-off 10-day course of medication. Its the NIH that funds this. Until a new antibiotic is far enough along to look like a winner (which is 1 out of 100 or more) and then a pharm company may pick it up at the end.

The real money is in life style and lifelong drugs. Statins, anti-diabetic, heart drugs, and any aging related drugs. Also anti-depressants and ED drugs.

276 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:06:02pm

re: #265 WindUpBird

BUT BUt but but BUT But material wealth!

The middle class has bigger TVs! That means they're doing great!

Fucking retarded

Wow. So, according to you, no amount of material wealth has any bearing on how well, materially speaking, the middle class is doing?

The fraction of the U.S. population that goes to college has moved steadily upward. (The fraction that is prepared for college work has not.)

And you want me to conclude...what? That we're all poorer, despite having way more stuff, including bigger houses? And more degrees?

277 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:06:32pm

re: #272 lostlakehiker

You do realize that those very homes are now scorned as sub-standard housing? That people occupy substantially more square feet of housing per capita than they did then?

That the government, in its determination to see to it that everyone could afford a home, fueled a bidding war with liar loans etc. that has not yet wound down?

Yesteryear's middle class made do without washing machines, air conditioning, and so forth, which were the province of the "barely rich". Today's middle range income sector has more "stuff', and better made stuff, than previous generations had.

Home computers, AC, watches that keep near perfect time, fabrics that last longer and shed rain better, autos that give better mileage and are safer, etc. etc.

And worse health care that now takes two working parents to afford


Also, i see the talking point that it's only the government responsible for the housing crisis!

Zombie talking points! RISE AND STALK THE LIVING

278 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:07:14pm

re: #272 lostlakehiker

You do realize that those very homes are now scorned as sub-standard housing? That people occupy substantially more square feet of housing per capita than they did then?

bullshit. what the hell are you talking about?

That the government, in its determination to see to it that everyone could afford a home, fueled a bidding war with liar loans etc. that has not yet wound down?

bullshit

Yesteryear's middle class made do without washing machines, air conditioning, and so forth, which were the province of the "barely rich". Today's middle range income sector has more "stuff', and better made stuff, than previous generations had.

bullshit

Home computers, AC, watches that keep near perfect time, fabrics that last longer and shed rain better, autos that give better mileage and are safer, etc. etc.

trash at premium prices to distract the exploited

what good is it if your kid can't afford the operation he needs or a decent education?

279 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:07:42pm

re: #276 lostlakehiker

Wow. So, according to you, no amount of material wealth has any bearing on how well, materially speaking, the middle class is doing?

The fraction of the U.S. population that goes to college has moved steadily upward. (The fraction that is prepared for college work has not.)

And you want me to conclude...what? That we're all poorer, despite having way more stuff, including bigger houses? And more degrees?

You are still avoiding my question about what the top .1% richest and the top 1% of the US earns.

Until you answer that question, this conversation is terminated

280 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:08:00pm

re: #276 lostlakehiker

Wow. So, according to you, no amount of material wealth has any bearing on how well, materially speaking, the middle class is doing?

The fraction of the U.S. population that goes to college has moved steadily upward. (The fraction that is prepared for college work has not.)

And you want me to conclude...what? That we're all poorer, despite having way more stuff, including bigger houses? And more degrees?

If poverty is measured by the amount left over after spending on the basics - food, medicine and housing.

Yes, incontrovertibly.

281 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:12:04pm

re: #277 WindUpBird

And worse health care that now takes two working parents to afford

Also, i see the talking point that it's only the government responsible for the housing crisis!

Zombie talking points! RISE AND STALK THE LIVING

Worse health care? Despite our bad habits, we are living longer. If we do things to ourselves that would tend to make our lives shorter, and they nevertheless stretch longer, how does that work if health care is worse?

282 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:12:41pm

re: #272 lostlakehiker

Yesteryear's middle class made do without washing machines, air conditioning, and so forth, which were the province of the "barely rich". Today's middle range income sector has more "stuff', and better made stuff, than previous generations had.

perhaps i should show you the washing machines sold in the 1910s via the sears robuck catalog. did you know that until the 1930s most 'middle class' families could afford 'one in help', usually a cook?

read some american history before you speak

Home computers, AC, watches that keep near perfect time, fabrics that last longer and shed rain better, autos that give better mileage and are safer, etc. etc.

"watches that keep near perfect time"? are your serious???

283 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:12:52pm

re: #276 lostlakehiker

Wow. So, according to you, no amount of material wealth has any bearing on how well, materially speaking, the middle class is doing?

The fraction of the U.S. population that goes to college has moved steadily upward. (The fraction that is prepared for college work has not.)

And you want me to conclude...what? That we're all poorer, despite having way more stuff, including bigger houses? And more degrees?


Still avoiding the actual costa of health care and raising a child, I see!

Family health care at my job if you had two kids actually eclipsed the salary of the worker, if you worked my job. Coverage for two kids, it was the whole paycheck to health care, the entire thing.

conversation over, you're just not arguing from anyplace real

284 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:14:15pm

re: #281 lostlakehiker

Worse health care? Despite our bad habits, we are living longer. If we do things to ourselves that would tend to make our lives shorter, and they nevertheless stretch longer, how does that work if health care is worse?

BECAUSE MILLIONS OF AMERICAN CHILDREN HAVE GONE WITHOUT PROPER HEALTH CARE FOR DECADES

but rich people in canada might come to the united states to get an operation, so fuck the children

285 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:15:43pm

re: #276 lostlakehiker

And you want me to conclude...what? That we're all poorer, despite having way more stuff, including bigger houses? And more degrees?

here's your problem right here, dude -

you think being better off means having more stuff

286 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:16:12pm

re: #281 lostlakehiker

Worse health care? Despite our bad habits, we are living longer. If we do things to ourselves that would tend to make our lives shorter, and they nevertheless stretch longer, how does that work if health care is worse?

"We" the guy on the internet? Or we, the guy without health care? Is the guy who can't get insurance living longer? Or do we just not talk about that?


Lot of "wes" in America. Which we?

287 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:19:22pm

re: #285 engineer dog

here's your problem right here, dude -

you think being better off means having more stuff


I paired down the "stuff" in my life that wasn't directly related to work or making art. Much happier now.

Happiness isn't an AC or a car or a television. it's having time to spend with your family, it's knowing your kids are covered and that you have the space in your life to care for them without working like a dog, it's knowing you won't be randomly bankrupted tomorrow if you need your appendix removed.

That's happiness!

Mixing up convenience with happiness, let's not do that

288 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:20:09pm

OK OK it's all the plutocrats fault. Speculators and plutocrats have caused housing prices to go too high. And also too low. The bad old days when women had to work in the home are gone. And that's bad. Or good. Take your pick.

The middle class cannot afford what the middle class used to be able to afford: an education for their children that put the children in the top 5 or 10 percent. Everybody got that, back in the day.

It cannot afford what the middle class used to be able to afford, a nice big house, fit for today's demands. Just look at the mass of older housing, how big, how spacious, how much better it is than what is now available.

Go into any almanac and check how many square feet per capita we used to use. More, it was. We're being crammed together nowadays.

What will it be like when peak oil really hits, and living standards take an actual downturn across the board? Right now, there's this fury coming my way for not putting on rose colored glasses when viewing the past.

Europe doesn't have the answers, guys. They've got their own problems, and those problems are serious. Worse than ours, really.

289 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:25:38pm

re: #288 lostlakehiker

OK OK it's all the plutocrats fault. Speculators and plutocrats have caused housing prices to go too high. And also too low. The bad old days when women had to work in the home are gone. And that's bad. Or good. Take your pick.

the old days when one income could support a family are gone. how are we supposed to raise children now?

The middle class cannot afford what the middle class used to be able to afford: an education for their children that put the children in the top 5 or 10 percent. Everybody got that, back in the day.

my grandfather could afford to go to CCNY and eventually got a medical degree whil working as a streetcar conductor while his father was a tailor

i repeat, you need to read some american history

Europe doesn't have the answers, guys. They've got their own problems, and those problems are serious. Worse than ours, really.

not actually true. europe, especially 'socialist' western europe, is doing just fine, thank you

290 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:27:35pm

re: #289 engineer dog

the old days when one income could support a family are gone. how are we supposed to raise children now?

my grandfather could afford to go to CCNY and eventually got a medical degree whil working as a streetcar conductor while his father was a tailor

i repeat, you need to read some american history

not actually true. europe, especially 'socialist' western europe, is doing just fine, thank you

Hey, that's not fair. They may have higher standards of living, live longer, have more free/relaxation time, be happier, and have better health care, but they have less, uh, stuff than we do!

291 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:28:35pm

re: #288 lostlakehiker


I see a whole lot of western europe beating us handily for life expectancy.

292 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:30:36pm

re: #290 Simply Sarah

Hey, that's not fair. They may have higher standards of living, live longer, have more free/relaxation time, be happier, and have better health care, but they have less, uh, stuff than we do!

If I didn't have to worry about health care bankrupting me or fucking up my life in a large way, I'd give up my VW, my big TV AND my dishwasher tomorrow. :D
IN A SECOND


I'd give up my air conditioner and my big house too, but I rent a small apartment with no AC. I'm keeping my garage though, I need that for work

293 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:31:05pm

re: #286 WindUpBird

"We" the guy on the internet? Or we, the guy without health care? Is the guy who can't get insurance living longer? Or do we just not talk about that?

Lot of "wes" in America. Which we?

Average life span is moving up. What else would I have meant by "we"?

Let's put magic solutions off the table. No fair making health care cheaper while maintaining quality, say. Especially since tort reform, which is not a magical solution, never seems to get enacted.

Say you had a single payer system, like in Europe. Nobody has to worry about paying their medical bill, it's all covered. Of course, you may wait a year or so for cancer surgery, by which time the surgery wouldn't work, so you don't get it. This saves NHS a bundle. It costs you your life, but at least you didn't pay anything for the free medical care you didn't get.

Europeans ought to have dramatically longer life spans than Americans. Their demographics are different in ways that would correlate with longer life spans. Their obesity statistics, likewise. Their murder rates and auto fatality rates, again likewise. We count infants born alive but hopelessly premature as live births, they don't. And yet, with all those advantages, they barely edge us out. What, other than differences in medical care that tilt our way, could account for that?

294 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:31:20pm

re: #288 lostlakehiker

here's a little thought experiment for you

we'll let you pay a mortgage on a big giant house. you can buy lots of neat stuff, like watches that keep perfect time. we'll make you pay your own health insurance, because that's the only correct free market way, and you have to maintain your own retirement fund because we "can't afford" social security. you have to send two kids to college so they can afford a 401k when they grow up. your have to do this on your income alone because you think it's better for women to work in the home

let me give you a hint: you'll work like a dog until you're 75 and die in debt in a rented room

295 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:31:34pm

re: #289 engineer dog

the old days when one income could support a family are gone. how are we supposed to raise children now?

my grandfather could afford to go to CCNY and eventually got a medical degree whil working as a streetcar conductor while his father was a tailor

i repeat, you need to read some american history

not actually true. europe, especially 'socialist' western europe, is doing just fine, thank you

"Old days"? Punk. I supported a family of four (then) on an assembly line job, and was able to let my wife stay home to keep the kids out of reform school. I was even able to go to college and grad school on the GI bill, but we lived in a 10x45 trailer and never had a car less than 5 yrs old. Times and people have changed.

296 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:32:14pm

re: #290 Simply Sarah

Hey, that's not fair. They may have higher standards of living, live longer, have more free/relaxation time, be happier, and have better health care, but they have less, uh, stuff than we do!

Birth rates here are higher than in Western Europe.

297 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:33:13pm

Say you had a single payer system, like in Europe. Nobody has to worry about paying their medical bill, it's all covered. Of course, you may wait a year or so for cancer surgery

what about YOU'LL NEVER GET THIS SURGERY AT ALL IF YOU DON'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE don't you understand?

298 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:33:47pm

re: #288 lostlakehiker

Europe doesn't have the answers, guys. They've got their own problems, and those problems are serious. Worse than ours, really.

They really are not.


[Link: www.reuters.com...]

299 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:36:01pm

tort reform

tort reform, definition: make it illegal for ordinary people to receive reasonable compensation from large corporations and hospitals when they have had their lives ruined by incompetence, neglect, and downright maliciousness

300 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:36:44pm

re: #293 lostlakehiker

Average life span is moving up. What else would I have meant by "we"?

Let's put magic solutions off the table. No fair making health care cheaper while maintaining quality, say. Especially since tort reform, which is not a magical solution, never seems to get enacted.

Say you had a single payer system, like in Europe. Nobody has to worry about paying their medical bill, it's all covered. Of course, you may wait a year or so for cancer surgery, by which time the surgery wouldn't work, so you don't get it. This saves NHS a bundle. It costs you your life, but at least you didn't pay anything for the free medical care you didn't get.

Europeans ought to have dramatically longer life spans than Americans. Their demographics are different in ways that would correlate with longer life spans. Their obesity statistics, likewise. Their murder rates and auto fatality rates, again likewise. We count infants born alive but hopelessly premature as live births, they don't. And yet, with all those advantages, they barely edge us out. What, other than differences in medical care that tilt our way, could account for that?

barely edge us out? A 5 year gap is pretty huge, dude


So Switzerland's life expectancy is around 82, Japan is above 82, Sweden and Israel are 81. we're down by Portugal at 78.

Syria is 74.

So Switzerland is to us, what we are to SYRIA?

Wow. Big gap if you ask me! And you're okay with that?

301 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:37:07pm

re: #299 engineer dog

tort reform

tort reform, definition: make it illegal for ordinary people to receive reasonable compensation from large corporations and hospitals when they have had their lives ruined by incompetence, neglect, and downright maliciousness

I'm not even opposed to considering some tort changes. It's just that, in general, "tort reform" tends to be a code word for, uh, what you said.

302 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:37:13pm

re: #299 engineer dog

tort reform

tort reform, definition: make it illegal for ordinary people to receive reasonable compensation from large corporations and hospitals when they have had their lives ruined by incompetence, neglect, and downright maliciousness

Tort reform is a red herring

303 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:37:39pm

re: #297 engineer dog

Say you had a single payer system, like in Europe. Nobody has to worry about paying their medical bill, it's all covered. Of course, you may wait a year or so for cancer surgery

what about YOU'LL NEVER GET THIS SURGERY AT ALL IF YOU DON'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE don't you understand?

Don't know how - but it does seem to be possible.

As it is to ignore the fact that the US ambulance service is a lottery.

304 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:38:11pm

We count infants born alive but hopelessly premature as live births, they don't.

if you look into this in detail, as i have, you find out that this only accounts for 0.02% of the difference

you are a propaganda victim

305 Simply Sarah  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:38:11pm

re: #300 WindUpBird

barely edge us out? A 5 year gap is pretty huge, dude

So Switzerland's life expectancy is around 82, Japan is above 82, Sweden and Israel are 81. we're down by Portugal at 78.

Syria is 74.

So Switzerland is to us, what we are to SYRIA?

Wow. Big gap if you ask me! And you're okay with that?

Not just that, but you need to look at the *quality* of those later years.

306 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:39:59pm

re: #295 Decatur Deb

"Old days"? Punk. I supported a family of four (then) on an assembly line job, and was able to let my wife stay home to keep the kids out of reform school. I was even able to go to college and grad school on the GI bill, but we lived in a 10x45 trailer and never had a car less than 5 yrs old. Times and people have changed.

I don't think I'm ever buying a car newer than 5-10 years old again, there's too many fun cars for a quarter of the price with a few miles on them

307 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:40:23pm

re: #305 Simply Sarah

Not just that, but you need to look at the *quality* of those later years.

yeah. :(

308 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:41:58pm

re: #294 engineer dog

let me give you a hint: you'll work like a dog until you're 75 and die in debt in a rented room

Can I at least have a blues harp in the rented room? :D

309 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:43:46pm

re: #306 WindUpBird

I don't think I'm ever buying a car newer than 5-10 years old again, there's too many fun cars for a quarter of the price with a few miles on them

I'm on a Brit Car list whose ethic is "The total age of your cars should exceed your own".

310 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:45:17pm

re: #309 Decatur Deb

I'm on a Brit Car list whose ethic is "The total age of your cars should exceed your own".

The van is at least fifteen years old, but hasn't moved in three, so I'm not entirely sure we can count it as a vehicle. It's really more of a storage unit that we keep in our parking space.

311 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:48:04pm

re: #310 SanFranciscoZionist

The van is at least fifteen years old, but hasn't moved in three, so I'm not entirely sure we can count it as a vehicle. It's really more of a storage unit that we keep in our parking space.

"Investments" count.

312 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:49:18pm

re: #295 Decatur Deb

"Old days"? Punk. I supported a family of four (then) on an assembly line job, and was able to let my wife stay home to keep the kids out of reform school. I was even able to go to college and grad school on the GI bill, but we lived in a 10x45 trailer and never had a car less than 5 yrs old. Times and people have changed.

Mobile Home Prices

New Home Prices
· Park Model, 350 - 450 sq. ft., high-grade construction $50,000

assembly line jobs - no longer available, of course

313 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:57:31pm

re: #312 engineer dog

Mobile Home Prices

New Home Prices
· Park Model, 350 - 450 sq. ft., high-grade construction $50,000

assembly line jobs - no longer available, of course

My old plant is still there, though it employees 6,500 instead of 20,000. Most of that is robotization rather than offshoring. (We can put an equipped 1,000 sq ft Habitat house on a lot for a total of 60,000 dollars (10 yr interest-free mortgage). Of course we don't use "market" philosophies to do it.

314 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 1:59:21pm

re: #262 lostlakehiker

The rest of the world enjoys a free ride. We do the pharma R&D, give or take rounding errors.

This is a false statement. Many of the large pharma companies do a ton of research in Europe. A truer statement would be that private pharma companies get a free ride from state-funded academic research.

315 engineer cat  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 2:05:18pm

re: #313 Decatur Deb

My old plant is still there, though it employees 6,500 instead of 20,000. Most of that is robotization rather than offshoring. (We can put an equipped 1,000 sq ft Habitat house on a lot for a total of 60,000 dollars (10 yr interest-free mortgage). Of course we don't use "market" philosophies to do it.

in 1960, the average price of a house was about twice median income

[Link: www.mybudget360.com...]

by that standard, the average price of a house would be about $110k

this country needs these Habitat houses more and more...

316 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 2:49:51pm

re: #309 Decatur Deb

I'm on a Brit Car list whose ethic is "The total age of your cars should exceed your own".

I'm actually only about ten years off, a friend of mine owns two Volvo 240s, both of whom are older than he is

317 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 2:50:11pm

re: #316 WindUpBird

both of whom? Both of which, rather

318 garhighway  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 2:50:24pm

re: #194 researchok

re: #186 garhighway

You didn't read my 180

As you say, FAIL.

You are right, I hadn't.

But judging by the reception your material got from those that read it, I'm thinking I wasn't far off the first time.

319 garhighway  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 2:56:38pm

re: #302 WindUpBird

Tort reform is a red herring

In the context of the HCR debate, it is offered up as a cost control measure. That makes some sense if you buy that lowering the cost and frequency of med mal awards would reduce the frequency of defensive medicine and thereby eliminate a bunch of unnecessary, duplicative testing. (Which definitely happens now.)

And it isn't like there aren't abuses of the tort system. We now have a system in which pretty much any birth injury (and childbirth, being a difficult process, yields a lot of them) is presumed to be the fault of the doctor.

But the linkage between tort reform and medical cost savings is suspect. Just changing the tort laws probably won't change behavior, since the behavior you are trying to change has been learned by the doctors over decades. You don't unlearn that just because Congress passes a bill.

320 Turkey Jihad  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 3:36:20pm

“You look like a fool,” Tea Party Nation founder Judson Phillips wrote in a post on the group’s website, directing his message at the Ohio Republican. “Charlie Sheen is now making more sense than John Boehner.”

The Orangeanator makes less sense than Charlie Sheen? Now you know you're really fucked.

321 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 4:43:11pm

re: #233 researchok

All true- but is our system worse when all is said and done?

Yes. The metrics say so, as do any measures of common human decency.

re: #244 lostlakehiker

Pharmaceutical companies don't excite the stock market...because their current prices are insufficient to throw off attractive profits while maintaining R&D so that those profits can be sustained.

The U.S. is at the leading edge in pharmaceutical research for a reason. European nations have already negotiated with their pharmaceutical companies.

The rest of the world enjoys a free ride. We do the pharma R&D, give or take rounding errors.

America has never outpaced Europe in pharmaceutical research, and the gap is growing. That would, in fact, be the total opposite of what you were saying. And I quote from that article, "Japan outstripped both Europe and the United States in pharmaceutical research productivity over these twenty years."

Furthermore, life science industries are one of the industries that are bucking the global downturn, and attracting more investment. This is because they are, in fact, attractive to investors.

You are an earnest debater. You have some good points to make. But the vast majority of your 'facts' are total falsehoods. And this is because you do not check your own facts, as you have admitted, but rather just take in an opinion, make it a KnownFactTM, and then repeat it in an earnest fashion.

Seriously, stop presenting blatant falsehoods as facts. Have some respect for this audience.

322 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 5:13:58pm

I see there was a lively thread on health care today. I'm sorry I missed it. I always love these debates, and I am heartened to see so many people realising the virtues of a single-payer system over the American monstrosity.

There are many points that have been made in today's thread, and I won't address them all on a dead thread. I had to respond to a few that were terribly wrong in the post above, but rather than go through more and praise or damn them, I would like instead to tell you about my day.

I saw sixty patients today, in a clinic for a very busy county hospital in one of the unhealthiest counties in the nation. Actually, there were a few more, because sixty were just the ones that had appointments, and a few came in from the attached hospital, and a few that had been seen last week came back for a clarification, and one just walked in with a health problem totally unrelated to the scope of the clinic, but we saw him anyway because he was emergent.

At least half of the patients had various chronic conditions that were simple to treat, but they had never or very rarely seen a primary care doc for them due to lack of insurance, and these conditions had progressed over years, to the point that many are severely impacted, or even permanently crippled, by them.

One patient had been on her husband's insurance the day she went in for surgery. He was abruptly laid off that day. His insurance policy was worded such that it was cancelled the instant he was laid off. She went under anaesthesia with insurance, and woke up without. Read that again. One bill for $25,000 later, she was in the clinic today tearfully begging us to work with her on the bill - a proud, lower middle class woman, reduced to tears and begging. (PS. The doc in question wrote it off as charity.)

One patient had had an abnormal screening test, then lost his job two weeks later, and thus, his insurance. Now, a year later, he has finally become poor enough to qualify for an assistance insurance program. Now, today, we get to tell him about the cancer he's had growing. He may be fortunate and have a slow-growing one that can still be treated. He may not.

One patient was there with his family, a wife and three kids. They had been bankrupted due to medical bills from a previous surgery of his, when he had been employed with insurance, and now he was making ends meet with odd jobs. They were cheerful and happy as anything, and grateful like you wouldn't believe, that they got such excellent care at this county hospital. Given their circumstances, the staff doc had me run quick checkups on the whole family, even though the appointment was just for the father, and give them the appropriate scrips and meds for their various minor conditions.

That's one, reasonably normal clinic day. I wish many of you debating health care could have seen it as a fly on my shoulder or somesuch. I realise the plural of anecdotes is not data. I realise that it is just one snapshot of healthcare in this country, and in the world. I realise that there are many countries much, much worse off than the US. But stories like these don't happen, ever, in the rest of the First World. And the reason is single-payer health care.

323 Spocomptonite  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:14:14pm

re: #98 Simply Sarah

Honestly? The "health insurance" industry needs to go in general. Why? Because most of what Americans seem to feel should be covered by health insurance, quite simply, cannot be insured. Regular checkups, treatment for known chronic conditions, etc. are all basically known, largely fixed costs. Pretty much the only way you can have a system of insurance is to make it so: 1. People with any pre-existing conditions can be declined. 2. Risk very high premiums because those who feel they need coverage tend to be highest risk.

You know, a system like it has been.

Personally, I'd prefer to have a single payer, government-funded system, a la Oceania or Canada. But universal health care is not exclusive of a private health insurance industry. Switzerland has an interesting system utilizing private insurance to offer universal health care through individual mandate. It addresses the problem of making everyone buy something in a for-profit, free market economy: insurance companies must offer a basic plan at a non-profit, government-regulated price in order to offer ANY insurance policies (and thus make any profit) in the country. It addresses the problem of costs to the poor: Subsidies are available based upon income, disability, etc etc.

Like all health care systems, it's not without it's own unique problems, but I think it works better than our patchwork revised system (I hate using the term 'Obamacare') will. But let me say that I do (reluctantly) support the coming/already made changes. When it comes down to it, small steps toward something better are better than none at all.

324 Spocomptonite  Thu, Mar 3, 2011 10:22:30pm

re: #306 WindUpBird

I don't think I'm ever buying a car newer than 5-10 years old again, there's too many fun cars for a quarter of the price with a few miles on them

If you can find them, Volvo 850 t5-R wagons are the ultimate cheap sleeper car.

Image: volvo_850_btcc.jpg

No one expects a 14-year-old grocery-getting box to do 0-60mph in under 6 seconds.


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