Nebraska Anti-Abortion Law Forces Mother to Watch Her Baby Die

Inhuman
Politics • Views: 36,870

Witness the inhumanity of the right wing anti-choice movement: Abortion Law: Mother Denied Abortion, Then Had To Watch Baby Die.

Nebraska’s new abortion law forced Danielle Deaver to live through ten excruciating days, waiting to give birth to a baby that she and her doctors knew would die minutes later, fighting for breath that would not come.

And that’s what happened. The one-pound, ten-ounce girl, Elizabeth, was born December 8th. Deaver and husband Robb watched, held and comforted the baby as it gasped for air, hoping she was not suffering. She died 15 minutes later.

The sponsor of the controversial Nebraska statute, Sen. Mike Flood of Norfolk, told the Des Moines Register that the law worked as it was intended in the Deavers’ case.

“Even in these situations where the baby has a terminal condition or there’s not much chance of surviving outside of the womb, my point has been and remains that is still a life,” Flood said in an interview with the Iowa newspaper.

The law, the only one of its kind in America, prohibits abortions after the 20th week. It is based on the disputed argument that a fetus may feel pain at that stage. It took effect last October.

“Our hands were tied,” Danielle Deaver of Grand Island told The Register in a story published Sunday.  “The outcome of my pregnancy, that choice was made by God. I feel like how to handle the end of my pregnancy, that choice should have been mine, and it wasn’t because of a law.”

And again, we see the fanatic’s absolute lack of empathy for the woman who was forced to bear a doomed child, and watch it die in agony.

Julie Schmit-Albin, who heads Nebraska Right to Life, told the AP in a Sunday interview that the tragic outcome was better than an abortion:

“We acknowledge the tragedy that occurs with a poor prenatal diagnosis for the baby. But isn’t it more humane for the baby to die in a loving manner with comfort care and in the arms of her parents than by the intentional painful death through abortion?”

So heartless it boggles the mind.

Jump to bottom

342 comments
1 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:12:28pm

Holy crap. What a fuck up.

2 Lidane  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:13:16pm

If I said what I thought about these people I’d get banned. What a bunch of heartless assholes for subjecting those people to such a horrible experience.

3 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:13:37pm

as long as the GOP insists on trying to overturn a woman’s right to choose, I can never register as a republican or give them a dime, even though there are other issues on which I agree with republicans. this type of story disgusts me

4 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:13:53pm

Read this morning on one of the pages. My heart breaks for that family. As the head of Nebraska Right to Life as well as the state legislator that got this passed in to law, you people are monsters. You care more about making women feel guilty as hell then babies.

5 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:14:38pm

All right! So I guess Nebraska is also run by sick fucks, awesome

6 122 Year Old Obama  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:15:11pm

Inhuman.

7 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:15:29pm

re: #2 Lidane

If I said what I thought about these people I’d get banned. What a bunch of heartless assholes for subjecting those people to such a horrible experience.

It’s all about a life doncha know. Not the woman’s and not her husband’s, and not a viable life, but it is all about a life.

A life that suffered before being extinguished.

Might I say torture?

8 albusteve  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:15:43pm

such a grotesque event…this is not a reflection of enlightened man

9 makeitstop  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:15:43pm

So, they denied this woman and abortion because the fetus may feel pain.

Never mind the pain that woman will feel for the rest of her life.

It’s hard not to hate those who enacted this law. Really hard.

10 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:15:59pm

There’s going to be a lot more of this, because there are states where they really just do not give shit one about the constititution in this regard

But we already knew that! 9/11! America! Freedom! Awesome!

11 theheat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:16:14pm

Lateral post: The people that think abortion laws like this are reasonable are the types that buy the bumper stickers that say, “God doesn’t make no junk.” Yes, to them, even suffering, short lives are glorious. They think this is part of God’s plan that all life is precious, and all life is some kind of glowing homage to God’s work.

Well, obviously some life is more precious than others. Some is engineered better. Some is doomed to suffer and die. No amount of prayer and rose colored glasses changes the inevitable outcome. Yet, these are the very same lives fundies celebrate, make excuses for, and explain away as part of some mysterious “plan.”

And this is precisely why fundies shouldn’t be in charge of any policy that deals in science. They don’t live in the real world, where “junk” gets made all the time.

12 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:17:39pm

re: #9 makeitstop

So, they denied this woman and abortion because the fetus may feel pain.

Never mind the pain that woman will feel for the rest of her life.

It’s hard not to hate those who enacted this law. Really hard.

It’s ABOUT making women feel pain

That is the entire point of these laws, that’s what we have in this purportedly great country

13 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:18:50pm

Charles,

Please clarify, was the fetus a child/alive or not? I believe your position is it is not a human/child/alive until birth as well as many liberals here. So you may want to update your post to say the mother was forced to deliver a non living fetus and *not* watch the death of a child

Just for the record before the dogs are released

1)I’m Pro-Choice in the first trimester*
2) I also think she should have had the right to abort a doomed Fetus and think what happened here is horrible
3) *Anytime in cases of rape, incest, or physical harm to the mother.

14 Simply Sarah  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:18:50pm
The sponsor of the controversial Nebraska statute, Sen. Mike Flood of Norfolk, told the Des Moines Register that the law worked as it was intended in the Deavers’ case.

Julie Schmit-Albin, who heads Nebraska Right to Life, told the AP in a Sunday interview that the tragic outcome was better than an abortion:
“We acknowledge the tragedy that occurs with a poor prenatal diagnosis for the baby. But isn’t it more humane for the baby to die in a loving manner with comfort care and in the arms of her parents than by the intentional painful death through abortion?”

After consulting attorneys, doctors told Deaver and her husband that the Nebraska law prohibited an abortion in their case. She had to wait, give birth, and watch the infant die.

Ironically, the Deavers’ sought an abortion because of concern that the infant would suffer while it died, trying to breathe.

What…the…fuck? Just…WHAT THE FUCK?!? How does this help *anyone*? You have parents that are already heartbroken over the fact that the child they wished to bring into the world has almost no chance of survival and would, likely, suffer a painful death if things were allowed to proceed naturally…and you have people here saying that making them wait for birth just to watch in agony as the newborn slowly dies is the law “working as intended” and “better than an abortion”? Like, its not even a tragic result of the law, it’s the exact case the law is there to address? That’s disgusting. That’s inhuman. That’s…I need to calm myself down a bit before continuing.

15 jaunte  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:20:17pm

re: #12 WindUpBird

It’s ABOUT making women feel pain
That is the entire point of these laws

As the Sen. says:
The sponsor of the controversial Nebraska statute, Sen. Mike Flood of Norfolk, told the Des Moines Register that the law worked as it was intended in the Deavers’ case.

16 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:20:17pm

This is despicable. That this woman had to carry, to term, a baby that she knew was going to die moments after birth is one of the most god awful things I could imagine doing to someone. And that sick fuck saying that the bill worked as intended can go DIAF as far as I’m concerned.

17 Lidane  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:20:18pm

re: #12 WindUpBird

It’s ABOUT making women feel pain

That is the entire point of these laws, that’s what we have in this purportedly great country

Exactly.

Abortion laws like these exist solely to punish women and traumatize them. There’s no other reason for them.

18 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:20:25pm

re: #11 theheat

Lateral post: The people that think abortion laws like this are reasonable are the types that buy the bumper stickers that say, “God doesn’t make no junk.” Yes, to them, even suffering, short lives are glorious. They think this is part of God’s plan that all life is precious, and all life is some kind of glowing homage to God’s work.

Well, obviously some life is more precious than others. Some is engineered better. Some is doomed to suffer and die. No amount of prayer and rose colored glasses changes the inevitable outcome. Yet, these are the very same lives fundies celebrate, make excuses for, and explain away as part of some mysterious “plan.”

And this is precisely why fundies shouldn’t be in charge of any policy that deals in science. They don’t live in the real world, where “junk” gets made all the time.

They don’t live in the real world, but they vote, and there’s a whole lot of them in a lot of states, like it or not, we seem to be stuck with these people, THANKS TO THE GOP

If you’re a mother and your daughter lives in Nebraska, just think on what Nebraska might force her against her will to endure in the future

19 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:21:09pm

re: #13 changomo

Charles,

Please clarify, was the fetus a child/alive or not? I believe your position is it is not a human/child/alive until birth as well as many liberals here. [snip]

Straw. Piles of straw.

20 iossarian  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:21:16pm

re: #18 WindUpBird

They don’t live in the real world, but they vote, and there’s a whole lot of them in a lot of states, like it or not, we seem to be stuck with these people, THANKS TO THE GOP

If you’re a mother and your daughter lives in Nebraska, just think on what Nebraska might force her against her will to endure in the future

I would GTFO at the first opportunity, I can tell you that much.

Fucking lunatic bastards.

21 theheat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:21:37pm

re: #7 b_sharp

It’s all about a life doncha know. Not the woman’s and not her husband’s, and not a viable life, but it is all about a life.

Then these absolutist shitheads should grow yogurt cultures, where their deranged viewpoints can’t impact anyone else. As is, these people inflict their bullshit all over the damned place, like those big fertilizer sprayers in crop fields.

22 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:21:44pm
Julie Schmit-Albin, who heads Nebraska Right to Life, told the AP in a Sunday interview that the tragic outcome was better than an abortion:

“We acknowledge the tragedy that occurs with a poor prenatal diagnosis for the baby. But isn’t it more humane for the baby to die in a loving manner with comfort care and in the arms of her parents than by the intentional painful death through abortion?”

[…]

After consulting attorneys, doctors told Deaver and her husband that the Nebraska law prohibited an abortion in their case. She had to wait, give birth, and watch the infant die.

Ironically, the Deavers’ sought an abortion because of concern that the infant would suffer while it died, trying to breathe.

That’s not irony, that’s tragedy. That’s also cruelty at the hands of the lawmakers and people like Julie Schmit-Albin. She should be ashamed. There is probably no way to make her feel shame.

23 Bulworth  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:21:51pm

Yeah, but I’m sure the RTL’s, and the government that enforces their legislation, know better than this couple what is best for them. The RTL’s feel better, that’s all that matters (to them).

24 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:22:06pm

re: #15 jaunte

As the Sen. says:
The sponsor of the controversial Nebraska statute, Sen. Mike Flood of Norfolk, told the Des Moines Register that the law worked as it was intended in the Deavers’ case.

Yep!

This is America! This is what the pigs want to do to American women.

25 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:22:45pm

I swear, these people seem like they won’t be happy till women are dieing in alleys with coat hangers in their hands….

26 theheat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:23:41pm

re: #18 WindUpBird

I deal with farmers from that area, and I’ve written them off as a collective of backwards idiots long ago. They’ve honed sanctimonious dominionism to a shiny point. My advice: don’t live in Nebraska, don’t vote Republican.

27 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:23:53pm

b_sharp,

It’s not a strawman. What’s your position? Is it alive or not? Is it a child or not? Is it human or not?

Hey again, I’m pro-choice with certain restrictions, but I bring up the point because understanding your opponent is the first step in any argument - Knee Jerk accusations that the pro-life movement simply all want to destroy/hurt women is as enlightened as assuming the pro-choice movement are all a bunch of eugenics supporters

28 Eclectic Cyborg  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:23:59pm

Part me can’t help but think even Jesus would feel this is messed up

29 jaunte  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:24:16pm

re: #13 changomo

Charles,

Please clarify, was the fetus a child/alive or not? I believe your position is it is not a human/child/alive until birth as well as many liberals here. So you may want to update your post to say the mother was forced to deliver a non living fetus and *not* watch the death of a child.

The story is in the links provided.

A nurse at Mary Lanning Memorial Hospital in Hastings instructed the couple to closely monitor their daughter’s breathing so when it stopped the staff could accurately record the death.
desmoinesregister.com
30 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:24:21pm

re: #20 iossarian

I would GTFO at the first opportunity, I can tell you that much.

Fucking lunatic bastards.

it just makes my skin craw that I can just hop in my car and drive to a state where they behave like cavemen, codified into law, barbarism and insanity

Well done, nebraska! Just rape her while she’s on the table, that seems to be where this is heading

31 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:25:07pm

re: #26 theheat

I deal with farmers from that area, and I’ve written them off as a collective of backwards idiots long ago. They’ve honed sanctimonious dominionism to a shiny point. My advice: don’t live in Nebraska, don’t vote Republican.

I’d sooner live in my car than live in Nebraska

(not joking at all)

32 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:25:48pm

re: #14 Simply Sarah

What…the…fuck? Just…WHAT THE FUCK?!? How does this help *anyone*? You have parents that are already heartbroken over the fact that the child they wished to bring into the world has almost no chance of survival and would, likely, suffer a painful death if things were allowed to proceed naturally…and you have people here saying that making them wait for birth just to watch in agony as the newborn slowly dies is the law “working as intended” and “better than an abortion”? Like, its not even a tragic result of the law, it’s the exact case the law is there to address? That’s disgusting. That’s inhuman. That’s…I need to calm myself down a bit before continuing.

Can’t be aborted because it might feel pain during the abortion. That it certainly felt pain during and after delivery, and while gasping for breath as it died, I guess is irrelevant.

33 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:25:50pm

It’s really hard not to be angry about this. And the attitudes of the Nebraska RTL chair as well as the legislator make me even more angered. These people have no right to act like this was the best outcome for this couple. What this couple had to go through would be something I wouldn’t even wish on my worst enemy.

34 Lidane  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:26:33pm

re: #27 changomo

Knee Jerk accusations that the pro-life movement simply all want to destroy/hurt women

They’re not knee jerk accusations if they’re true. And these assholes aren’t pro-life. They’re anti-choice, anti-reason, and anti-woman.

35 Interesting Times  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:27:08pm

re: #13 changomo

Read this post^^

…and then compare it to this one by “Gepetto” and this one by “MH”.

Sockpuppets? They’re all spewing the exact same strawman talking point.

36 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:27:42pm

re: #13 changomo

Charles,

Please clarify, was the fetus a child/alive or not? I believe your position is it is not a human/child/alive until birth as well as many liberals here. So you may want to update your post to say the mother was forced to deliver a non living fetus and *not* watch the death of a child

Just for the record before the dogs are released

1)I’m Pro-Choice in the first trimester*
2) I also think she should have had the right to abort a doomed Fetus and think what happened here is horrible
3) *Anytime in cases of rape, incest, or physical harm to the mother.

Do you believe in changing the law to outlaw abortions in the second trimester?

37 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:28:00pm

re: #27 changomo

b_sharp,

It’s not a strawman. What’s your position? Is it alive or not? Is it a child or not? Is it human or not?

Hey again, I’m pro-choice with certain restrictions, but I bring up the point because understanding your opponent is the first step in any argument - Knee Jerk accusations that the pro-life movement simply all want to destroy/hurt women is as enlightened as assuming the pro-choice movement are all a bunch of eugenics supporters


I am actually watching these people hurt women, now. And violating the hippocratic oath, I may add

It’s not an accusation, its the truth, it is what they want, it is their goal, period, end of fucking story, dude

38 Simply Sarah  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:28:07pm

Now that I’ve had a moment to collect myself, let us take another look at this quote:

“We acknowledge the tragedy that occurs with a poor prenatal diagnosis for the baby. But isn’t it more humane for the baby to die in a loving manner with comfort care and in the arms of her parents than by the intentional painful death through abortion?”

So…instead of a “painful”, quick death through abortion, the mother had to carry until a premature birth and then the newborn had to suffocate (With comfort care!) to death, because that was better for the parents and for the (un)born. Yes, that makes complete sense to me. I know that’s how I’d like to go given the choice, slowly gasping for air as my body shut down, instead of it all ending swiftly.

39 theheat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:28:12pm

re: #32 b_sharp

Can’t be aborted because it might feel pain during the abortion. That it certainly felt pain during and after delivery, and while gasping for breath as it died, I guess is irrelevant.

“Oh, but baby Jesus calls home the precious ones early.” Oddly enough, a higher power is always the silver lining to these people, but never the cause of the junk wiring in the first place.

And it’s this kind of fucked up thinking they expect everyone else to get on board with.

40 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:28:27pm

re: #34 Lidane

They’re not knee jerk accusations if they’re true. And these assholes aren’t pro-life. They’re anti-choice, anti-reason, and anti-woman.

BUT THERE’S TWOO SIIIIIIIDES

I HAVE TO PRETEND TO BE SERIOUS AND EXAMINE BOTH SIIIIIIIDES

41 iossarian  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:28:31pm

re: #13 changomo

It is exactly this kind of black/white right/wrong bullshit that should disqualify the speaker from inveighing on any issue that involves the shades of gray we see in abortion specifically, and life in general.

“But, but, you said that before birth it’s just a fetus! So you shouldn’t have any problem with making a woman watch the thing die in her arms.”

The point is that the fetus/child is dead whatever. So we try to come up with ways of dealing with this fact so as to cause the least amount of physical and psychological trauma to the mother (and indeed the father and other associated people).

Maybe the logical next step is to force the parents of children who are determined to be dead in hospital to themselves physically pull the plug out of the life support machine. That’ll show them for not believing in Sky God Megachrist!

42 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:29:21pm

re: #35 publicityStunted

Read this post^^

…and then compare it to this one by “Gepetto” and this one by “MH”.

Sockpuppets? They’re all spewing the exact same strawman talking point.

I must say I agree that birth does not entail personhood (personhood begins either much earlier or much later). (I’m not saying these are not strawmen arguments - that would depend on what they’re replying to.)

43 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:29:27pm

re: #27 changomo

b_sharp,

It’s not a strawman. What’s your position? Is it alive or not? Is it a child or not? Is it human or not?

Hey again, I’m pro-choice with certain restrictions, but I bring up the point because understanding your opponent is the first step in any argument - Knee Jerk accusations that the pro-life movement simply all want to destroy/hurt women is as enlightened as assuming the pro-choice movement are all a bunch of eugenics supporters

I believe that a child is alive and a human being with all the other rights of a human being from a moment of conception.

Do you believe a child has a right to use its mother’s organs without her permission?

44 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:29:42pm

Man, I sure am glad we’re enlightened here in the greatest country on earth, America!

And certainly this doesn’t make us appear like a bunch of backwoods hillbilly lunatics to the civilized world, no, not at all

45 albusteve  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:29:57pm

re: #31 WindUpBird

I’d sooner live in my car than live in Nebraska

(not joking at all)

I have no clue what the details of abortion law is here in New Mexico, but whatever they are I assure you, it would not make me leave the state…humanizing geographical regions is just bizarre

46 blueraven  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:31:09pm

re: #13 changomo

Charles,

Please clarify, was the fetus a child/alive or not? I believe your position is it is not a human/child/alive until birth as well as many liberals here. So you may want to update your post to say the mother was forced to deliver a non living fetus and *not* watch the death of a child

Just for the record before the dogs are released

1)I’m Pro-Choice in the first trimester*
2) I also think she should have had the right to abort a doomed Fetus and think what happened here is horrible
3) *Anytime in cases of rape, incest, or physical harm to the mother.

I believe you have no idea what many “liberals here” think, and therefore do not get to define their position on abortion.

47 iossarian  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:31:24pm

re: #45 albusteve

I have no clue what the details of abortion law is here in New Mexico, but whatever they are I assure you, it would not make me leave the state…humanizing geographical regions is just bizarre

Would you leave if it were legal to stone your daughter to death for smiling at a man in the street?

‘Cause that’s the way it’s going in Nebraska by all appearances.

48 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:31:55pm

re: #29 jaunte

Angry villagers,

I know what the story said, I’m asking what Charles’ opinion is on abortion. I don’t know, maybe I am wrong. Maybe he thinks fetus’ are alive and human but a women should have the right to terminate it nonetheless. I personally don’t think they are alive or human during the early stages - in this particularly story - it said she was at 20 weeks, this is past the first trimester and I do believe it is human and alive at that point. I do think after the first trimester, abortions should be banned because there is a point where I do label a fetus as a human/child. Again, that is the crux of my question. It would appear that Charles also shares this, but agrees it should be terminating. That’s fine - I just want clarity.

As I said in the past, I still agree what happened was wrong, but I”m trying to reconcile people’s positions of allowing said “alive/baby” to be terminated in cases where it is not doomed.

Again, I simply want illumination from Charles and his position. If this warrants chiding- it’s unfortunate as I hope you can see my posts have been very respectful and intellectually honest.

49 Lidane  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:33:09pm

re: #45 albusteve

I have no clue what the details of abortion law is here in New Mexico, but whatever they are I assure you, it would not make me leave the state…humanizing geographical regions is just bizarre

No offense, but you’re not a woman. Your rights aren’t the ones being trampled on with laws like these.

50 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:33:31pm

re: #46 blueraven

blue raven,

Good point, let me re-phrase - most liberals in America (not necessarily on this board)

Thanks for allowing me to clarify.

51 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:33:47pm

re: #42 Sergey Romanov

I must say I agree that birth does not entail personhood (personhood begins either much earlier or much later). (I’m not saying these are not strawmen arguments - that would depend on what they’re replying to.)

To elaborate. I believe personhood begins much earlier, after the cerebral cortex forms. But it is also possible to maintain a philosophical position that the personhood begins much later in infancy, when the child begins to show personal traits. I don’t believe the latter position is compatible with our modern society, though I don’t believe it necessarily entails that any bad thing could be done to an infant.

52 iossarian  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:34:12pm

re: #48 changomo


Again, I simply want illumination from Charles and his position. If this warrants chiding- it’s unfortunate as I hope you can see my posts have been very respectful and intellectually honest.

I’m not angry, I’m laughing at you. You seem to be saying that you would have no problem with abortion-as-birth-control in the first trimester.

But heck, if that’s your position, run with it. I’m sure the “liberals” on here will be with you all the way.

53 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:34:13pm

re: #27 changomo

b_sharp,

It’s not a strawman. What’s your position? Is it alive or not? Is it a child or not? Is it human or not?

Hey again, I’m pro-choice with certain restrictions, but I bring up the point because understanding your opponent is the first step in any argument - Knee Jerk accusations that the pro-life movement simply all want to destroy/hurt women is as enlightened as assuming the pro-choice movement are all a bunch of eugenics supporters

Is it alive? I know of no lefties here or anywhere else that would dispute it being alive, most of us have at least a middling grasp of the definition of life. Your comment is a straw man. Burn away.

Is it human? Again, no leftie I know claims life starts at delivery, so yes it is human. Another straw man argument.

You will not get an honest characterization of ‘lefties’ from many right wing sites.

I suggest you failed at understanding your opponent. Time to go back to class.

54 theheat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:34:17pm

re: #48 changomo

this is past the first trimester and I do believe it is human and alive at that point….

As I said in the past, I still agree what happened was wrong

If you don’t agree with her being able to terminate the pregnancy because it’s a human, then how do you agree that what happened is wrong? This is a contradiction.

55 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:34:23pm

re: #48 changomo

Angry villagers,

I know what the story said, I’m asking what Charles’ opinion is on abortion. I don’t know, maybe I am wrong. Maybe he thinks fetus’ are alive and human but a women should have the right to terminate it nonetheless. I personally don’t think they are alive or human during the early stages - in this particularly story - it said she was at 20 weeks, this is past the first trimester and I do believe it is human and alive at that point. I do think after the first trimester, abortions should be banned because there is a point where I do label a fetus as a human/child. Again, that is the crux of my question. It would appear that Charles also shares this, but agrees it should be terminating. That’s fine - I just want clarity.

As I said in the past, I still agree what happened was wrong, but I”m trying to reconcile people’s positions of allowing said “alive/baby” to be terminated in cases where it is not doomed.

Again, I simply want illumination from Charles and his position. If this warrants chiding- it’s unfortunate as I hope you can see my posts have been very respectful and intellectually honest.

”.

As I said in the past, I still agree what happened was wrong, but I”m trying to reconcile people’s positions of allowing said “alive/baby” to be terminated in cases where it is not doomed.”

The child has every rights of a living human being.

No human has the right to use another person’s organs without their permission.

Thus no right to use the mother’s organs without her permission.

Thus the mother is not committing a crime by denying the child access to her organs any more than you are to a refuse to let a man who comes to your door in a snow storm sleep inside your house.

Done.

56 S'latch  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:34:38pm

This Nebraska law failed miserably here. What a horrible outcome for the Deavers.

57 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:34:42pm

re: #45 albusteve

I have no clue what the details of abortion law is here in New Mexico, but whatever they are I assure you, it would not make me leave the state…humanizing geographical regions is just bizarre

I just wouldn’t feel safe in a state where that was acceptable, basically. I certainly wouldn’t want to contribute to their coffers with my tax dollars

Because in Oregon, if this happened, there’d be a thousand angry women in Salem raising hell the next day, there would actually probably be real civil unrest

And thus I’d feel safe! Because the populace would be informed and rightfully furious

58 albusteve  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:34:53pm

re: #49 Lidane

No offense, but you’re not a woman. Your rights aren’t the ones being trampled on with laws like these.

I knew that

59 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:35:12pm

Fucking primitives.

60 Simply Sarah  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:35:21pm

re: #56 Lawrence Schmerel

This Nebraska law failed miserably here. What a horrible outcome for the Deavers.

Nope! According to the sponsor it worked exactly as it was planned and designed to work!

61 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:35:30pm

re: #48 changomo

nice troll dude, you do seem to have the board all paying attention to you! You must be very proud

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:35:42pm

re: #32 b_sharp

Can’t be aborted because it might feel pain during the abortion. That it certainly felt pain during and after delivery, and while gasping for breath as it died, I guess is irrelevant.

I can’t imagine that being born is a walk in the park. It literally smooshes your skull. Normally, of course, this is totally worth it. In this case, it’s a trauma chosen for the child out of ideology, not compassion.

What I cannot imagine is the agony of going through labor knowing that the child cannot survive.

63 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:35:50pm

re: #60 Simply Sarah

Nope! According to the sponsor it worked exactly as it was planned and designed to work!

That’s how you know they’re actually evil!

64 steve_davis  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:36:01pm

And isn’t it really better in a completely lost game of chess to pick your king off the board and fire it randomly across the tournament hall, killing some poor GM up on one of the top boards, rather than simply tilting your king over on its side and shaking your opponent’s hand while saying, “Well played, young man”?

65 Interesting Times  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:36:15pm

re: #42 Sergey Romanov

I must say I agree that birth does not entail personhood (personhood begins either much earlier or much later). (I’m not saying these are not strawmen arguments - that would depend on what they’re replying to.)

Look at them in context - they’re strawmen in that none of the abortion threads had anyone making the claim that it’s a fetus one moment and a person the next. Also seems like far too much of a coincidence that 3 hardly-ever-around posters should pop up on abortion threads trying to muddy up and derail the conversation with practically identical talking points.

66 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:36:59pm

re: #35 publicityStunted

Read this post^^

…and then compare it to this one by “Gepetto” and this one by “MH”.

Sockpuppets? They’re all spewing the exact same strawman talking point.

A trinity of ignorance.

67 blueraven  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:37:09pm

re: #50 changomo

blue raven,

Good point, let me re-phrase - most liberals in America (not necessarily on this board)

Thanks for allowing me to clarify.

Fail

68 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:37:11pm

re: #65 publicityStunted

I suspected as much, thus the comment in the brackets.

69 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:37:27pm

I think what angers me most is the response of the bill’s sponsor to the story. “Worked how it intended.” How dipshit? That woman and her husband had to watch their daughter die in front of them. People like him act like women who choose to get abortions got to the abortion doctor and act like it’s this mundane event.

70 S'latch  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:37:39pm

re: #60 Simply Sarah

“… isn’t it more humane for the baby to die in a loving manner with comfort care and in the arms of her parents than by the intentional painful death through abortion?”

The Deavers should have been allowed to answer that question for themselves.

71 brookly red  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:38:20pm

re: #56 Lawrence Schmerel

This Nebraska law failed miserably here. What a horrible outcome for the Deavers.

I think that yes, the law is the point here. Perhaps the law will now be revisited, at least I would think it should be.

72 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:38:44pm

re: #13 changomo

Charles,

Please clarify, was the fetus a child/alive or not?

When does the woman carrying the child become a human being?

73 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:38:55pm

re: #66 b_sharp

A trinity of ignorance.

The usual behavior from people who weep for the fact that LGF was stolen from them, hahaha

74 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:39:14pm

re: #53 b_sharp

Is it alive? I know of no lefties here or anywhere else that would dispute it being alive, most of us have at least a middling grasp of the definition of life. Your comment is a straw man. Burn away.

Is it human? Again, no leftie I know claims life starts at delivery, so yes it is human. Another straw man argument.

You will not get an honest characterization of ‘lefties’ from many right wing sites.

I suggest you failed at understanding your opponent. Time to go back to class.

It’s human “all the way down”, it has human DNA, BUT if you chop someone’s hand off it’s also human - it has human DNA. What matters is a personhood.

75 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:40:02pm

re: #34 Lidane

yes Lidane,

I do believe you feel ALL pro-life supporters hate women, have no reason, and hate freedom of choice.

I’m being honest when I say believe you, and I’m not trying to patronize your belief.

76 JRCMYP  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:41:00pm

As someone who had a poor prenatal diagnosis and had to have a selective reduction, and who also knows literally hundreds of women through a message board who have chosen to terminate pregnancies because of poor prenatal diagnoses, let me just say that this is cruel and disgusting.

What *should* have happened was a humane death. That humane death would have resulted from a needle to the fetuses heart. Death would have been instant.

We treat our fucking dogs and cats better than that poor baby and her family were treated.

Horrible. Monstrous.

77 blueraven  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:41:45pm

re: #72 Charles

When does the woman carrying the child become a human being?

Oh, she was a human being up until the time she was born. Then her rights were slowly taken away, especially during child bearing years.

78 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:41:48pm

re: #48 changomo

Angry villagers,

That’s fine - I just want clarity.

You want answers?

You can’t handle the truth!.

79 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:41:50pm

re: #72 Charles

When does the woman carrying the child become a human being?

Never according to some.

80 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:42:14pm

changomo do you intend to get around to respond to me an my presentation of the “violinist argument” any time soon on this thread? Because I would love to have a discussion with you if you have an argument to make that could explain to me why the child has a right to use its mother’s organs against her will, a right no other human being has at any point in its life….

81 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:42:18pm

re: #35 publicityStunted

Well, I can say I don’t know how gestepo or MH are, but they did make good points - that said - Charles should have logs of IP addresses and history of posts etc….he’s a smart guy - he should know if I’m those folks or not. Btw, I’ve been registered a long time and have been following LGF when it was center-right….about 9 years now I think I’ve been reading it.

82 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:42:30pm

re: #70 Lawrence Schmerel

“… isn’t it more humane for the baby to die in a loving manner with comfort care and in the arms of her parents than by the intentional painful death through abortion?”

The Deavers should have been allowed to answer that question for themselves.

I remember this Terri Schiavo thing, I remember a whole lot of crazy snake handlers waving bibles and crosses, I remember Bush hoppin’ to it and signing laws at a moments notice to keep the preachermen happy, and also a fakeass GOP doctor doing his fakeass GOP diagnosis over a camera before going home to his fakeass wife

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:42:46pm

re: #46 blueraven

I believe you have no idea what many “liberals here” think, and therefore do not get to define their position on abortion.

Of course, if you wanted to ask me what my belief about when life begins actually is…

84 Simply Sarah  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:42:54pm

What’s even worse is that there’s a move in Iowa to enact the same or similar law, based on this article linked from the story.

85 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:43:03pm

re: #75 changomo

and the troll kept on trollin

Are you one of the old guys who got banned?

86 Lidane  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:43:19pm

re: #75 changomo

GAZE

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:43:21pm

re: #50 changomo

blue raven,

Good point, let me re-phrase - most liberals in America (not necessarily on this board)

Thanks for allowing me to clarify.

Nonsense.

88 Kronocide  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:43:24pm

This is one step away from neglecting medical care because ‘it’s in God’s hands.’

This is totally insane, sick.

89 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:44:32pm

re: #81 changomo

What’s your rationale for the arbitrary-seeming ‘first trimester’ cutoff?

90 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:44:41pm

re: #40 WindUpBird

well windupbird,

there are actually more then two sides, and unfortunately, since have many opinions on when a fetus becomes a human - and it’s not something anybody can prove definitively That’s what I’m asking Charles. I’m not saying that I can prove that my view is right. I’m asking Charles’ what is his opinion.

91 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:45:07pm

re: #88 BigPapa

This is one step away from neglecting medical care because ‘it’s in God’s hands.’

This is totally insane, sick.

Funny how God’s plan never seems to include getting responsible effective medical attention.

92 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:45:40pm

re: #90 changomo

Why is ‘when it becomes human’ even relevant, though?

93 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:45:49pm

re: #90 changomo

troll kept a trollin

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:45:55pm

re: #70 Lawrence Schmerel

“… isn’t it more humane for the baby to die in a loving manner with comfort care and in the arms of her parents than by the intentional painful death through abortion?”

The Deavers should have been allowed to answer that question for themselves.

Bingo. If they had decided that this was how they wanted to end the pregnancy, that would have been their right as well. There’s really no right answer in a situation like this.

The wrong one is traumatizing the hell out of the family and taking away their rights for no sane reason.

95 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:46:25pm

re: #90 changomo

well windupbird,

there are actually more then two sides, and unfortunately, since have many opinions on when a fetus becomes a human - and it’s not something anybody can prove definitively That’s what I’m asking Charles. I’m not saying that I can prove that my view is right. I’m asking Charles’ what is his opinion.

Why does it matter when the fetus becomes a human being exactly?

I will concede it is a human being form conception if you will explain to me how this maters legally.

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:47:04pm

re: #75 changomo

yes Lidane,

I do believe you feel ALL pro-life supporters hate women, have no reason, and hate freedom of choice.

I’m being honest when I say believe you, and I’m not trying to patronize your belief.

Except that isn’t remotely what she said, dude.

97 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:47:11pm

re: #88 BigPapa

This is one step away from neglecting medical care because ‘it’s in God’s hands.’

This is totally insane, sick.

well, even Christian Scientists aren’t forcing others to undergo their craziness

Nebraska actually is!

Maybe Nebraska will bring back stocks! And drawing and quartering! Maybe we’ll chain women up in the town square when they get too uppity! Yay!

98 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:47:22pm

re: #96 SanFranciscoZionist

Except that isn’t remotely what she said, dude.

troll is troll

99 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:47:27pm

re: #81 changomo

Well, I can say I don’t know how gestepo or MH are, but they did make good points - that said - Charles should have logs of IP addresses and history of posts etc…he’s a smart guy - he should know if I’m those folks or not. Btw, I’ve been registered a long time and have been following LGF when it was center-right…about 9 years now I think I’ve been reading it.

9 years? Wow.

You must have started reading LGF when you were 5.

100 Blue Point  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:47:46pm

As the Sen. says:
The sponsor of the controversial Nebraska statute, Sen. Mike Flood of Norfolk, told the Des Moines Register that the law worked as it was intended in the Deavers’ case.
I am sure if the Honorable Senator had a similar heart wrenching situation befall a female family member the same judgment would be called. I’m sure. I can say no more.

101 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:49:19pm

There is no real concern for the mother here, or the child, or anything that smacks of intelligence, these god believing morons are at still at the evolutionary level of knuckle dragging savages. It’s all in deference to a mythical deity. Their ideology is corrupted. It must be so much easier to live putting your faith in fairy tales and magic beings.

102 brookly red  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:49:40pm

re: #99 b_sharp

9 years? Wow.

You must have started reading LGF when you were 5.

/I was abandoned as a child & raised by the internet…

103 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:49:46pm

re: #99 b_sharp

9 years? Wow.

You must have started reading LGF when you were 5.

I love people who brag about reading a blog for a long time like it grants them seniority, as if that’s an accomplishment, hahaha

YOU MUST BE VERY PROUD, WOULD YOU LIKE A MEDAL

104 Kronocide  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:49:51pm

Radio Winger was crowing about how irritated and frothy the liberulz got when they brought in the ‘witnesses’ that were 9 and 12 week fetuses with the beating hearts.

It was not evidence, as it would be in a rationale world. They were ‘witnesses’ and winger guy thought that was clever.

But why didn’t the ‘witnesses’ get cross examined with pictures/ultrasound so everyone could see they have tails?

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:50:02pm

re: #91 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Funny how God’s plan never seems to include getting responsible effective medical attention.

The case that blew my mind was one maybe fifteen years ago, where a woman went in for fertility treatment, got pregnant with multiples, and then refused selective abortion, even though the doctors felt carrying all the multiples posed a threat to her life.

She said it was God’s will.

Dan Savage commented, meanly but accurately, “No, it was God’s will that you be barren.”

106 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:50:23pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

Lots of people manage to have faith in a deity without forcing women to bear children and watch them die in their arms, Walter. You’re kind of missing the point.

107 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:50:27pm

re: #92 Obdicut

Why is ‘when it becomes human’ even relevant, though?

Cause humans shouldn’t be killed indiscriminately like fetuses are.

Really, I got nothin’.

I’m just hoping the confusion leaking out of changomo isn’t contagious.

108 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:50:36pm

re: #102 brookly red

/I was abandoned as a child & raised by the internet…

Impossible, you are capable of proper grammar and don’t make repeated porn references.

109 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:51:23pm

re: #106 Obdicut

Lots of people manage to have faith in a deity without forcing women to bear children and watch them die in their arms, Walter. You’re kind of missing the point.

No I’m not… but good try. Your trying to protect your mythical god. Boring.

110 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:51:31pm

re: #102 brookly red

/I was abandoned as a child & raised by the internet…

So that’s why you speak in binary.

111 brookly red  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:51:57pm

re: #108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Impossible, you are capable of proper grammar and don’t make repeated porn references.

well your right about the porn thing, grammar? no contest.

112 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:52:02pm

re: #37 WindUpBird

yes WindUpBird, like lidane - I will not refute that you believe the agenda of the pro-life movement is to hurt women and cause them pain. I know you believe this, and I’m not going to attempt to change your mind. It doesn’t offend me since the pro-life movement does not agree with my view either.

113 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:52:03pm

re: #100 nines09

As the Sen. says:
The sponsor of the controversial Nebraska statute, Sen. Mike Flood of Norfolk, told the Des Moines Register that the law worked as it was intended in the Deavers’ case.
I am sure if the Honorable Senator had a similar heart wrenching situation befall a female family member the same judgment would be called. I’m sure. I can say no more.

Oh yeah, it’s barbarism for the citizens, but not for them! They’ll just quietly fly the female family member off to the west coast, because we aren’t barbarians and we believe in professional medical care, she’d have her abortion, poof, done, taken care of! A Republican abortion isn’t really an abortion. it’s a gift! A gift from Jesus.

These guys never use their own supply ;-)

114 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:52:08pm

re: #92 Obdicut

Why is ‘when it becomes human’ even relevant, though?

I THINK the logic goes like this:

‘Liberals’ believe that a fetus is not human and not alive until it is born.

Therefore, anyone who is indignant about what happened to this family is a hypocrite, since we supposedly didn’t believe the child was a child, so who cares if it suffers?

The fact that you could drive a truck through about four or five major misapprehensions and logical problems with that argument may or may not bother anyone.

115 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:52:09pm

re: #35 publicityStunted

Read this post^^

…and then compare it to this one by “Gepetto” and this one by “MH”.

Sockpuppets? They’re all spewing the exact same strawman talking point.

That’s the definition of “talking point”. They are issued to those who are either incapable or not allowed to think for themselves. There may be a single source that these posters got their points from.

116 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:52:29pm

re: #111 brookly red

well your right about the porn thing, grammar? no contest.

I did say capable.

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:52:38pm

re: #112 changomo

tl:dr

118 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:52:59pm

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

No I’m not… but good try. Your trying to protect your mythical god. Boring.

I’m an atheist, Walter. I don’t believe in any god, or anything beyond physical reality.

However, it is obviously true that there are plenty of people who believe in a deity without believing that other people should have to live by the rules of their religion, for whom their religion is private.

You’re just trolling on a very strange thread to troll. It’s rather perverse of you.

119 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:53:35pm

re: #114 SanFranciscoZionist

I THINK the logic goes like this:

‘Liberals’ believe that a fetus is not human and not alive until it is born.

Therefore, anyone who is indignant about what happened to this family is a hypocrite, since we supposedly didn’t believe the child was a child, so who cares if it suffers?

The fact that you could drive a truck through about four or five major misapprehensions and logical problems with that argument may or may not bother anyone.

I think that truck is a honey wagon.

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:55:17pm

re: #104 BigPapa

Radio Winger was crowing about how irritated and frothy the liberulz got when they brought in the ‘witnesses’ that were 9 and 12 week fetuses with the beating hearts.

It was not evidence, as it would be in a rationale world. They were ‘witnesses’ and winger guy thought that was clever.

But why didn’t the ‘witnesses’ get cross examined with pictures/ultrasound so everyone could see they have tails?

Perhaps everyone could leave the fetuses alone, so they can absorb their tails on schedule, and get on with the whole process of development? They have a shitload of work to do, and being asked to give statements to the press is just going to slow them down.

121 Lidane  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:55:51pm

re: #112 changomo

GAZE

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:56:10pm

re: #110 b_sharp

So that’s why you speak in binary.

I liked the Onion story about the little girl who was raised by Wolf Blitzer.

123 Big Steve  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:56:18pm

From my understanding of the biochemical gestation process it is fantastically complex choreographed set of chemical reactions that are often sequentially auto catalytic. Meaning that reaction A has to occur and then the molecules created in that reaction participate in reaction B without being consumed. Systems are built independently from different cell sources that then have to connect later in the process. Given this, there is too numerous to count interim reactive states. The result being that the process is by definition seamless. Just from the chemistry alone, one is NEVER…..repeat NEVER….going to be able to define a precise step in the process to which the entire process has reacted into something else. Therefore there is NO single place, step, date, system start-up, or whatever that one can say that the fetus has become “human” or not. The debate that one can find a date where before abortion is allowable and after it is not is not every going to be scientifically valid. Given that abortion is legal, then abortion at any state of the fetus development from egg meets sperm to delivery carries no more nor less difference.

124 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:56:33pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

Perhaps everyone could leave the fetuses alone, so they can absorb their tails on schedule, and get on with the whole process of development? They have a shitload of work to do, and being asked to give statements to the press is just going to slow them down.

All I know is that if I was a fetus and I knew someone in the outside world wanted me to give testimony seven months before I was born, they’d have to pry me out of my mother’s womb with the jaws of life….

125 Blue Point  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:56:34pm

re: #113 WindUpBird
It would be proprietary of them to do so. Money talks and you will never change that.

126 albusteve  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:56:45pm

re: #118 Obdicut

I’m an atheist, Walter. I don’t believe in any god, or anything beyond physical reality.

However, it is obviously true that there are plenty of people who believe in a deity without believing that other people should have to live by the rules of their religion, for whom their religion is private.

You’re just trolling on a very strange thread to troll. It’s rather perverse of you.

bullshit…you did not comprehend his post
by “morons” it’s obvious he is referring to the people that support this law

127 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:56:53pm

re: #41 iossarian

iossarian,

I did say I agree that doomed children should be abortable. So I don’t see where we disagree?

Thanks

128 AlexRogan  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:58:08pm

re: #32 b_sharp

Can’t be aborted because it might feel pain during the abortion. That it certainly felt pain during and after delivery, and while gasping for breath as it died, I guess is irrelevant.

Exactly…the RTLers don’t give a shit about fetuses/babies suffering, but they want the mother to feel as guilty as inhumanly possible. That poor baby suffered more, IMO, in its short 15 minutes of life than it ever would have if the mother had been allowed to abort waaayyy before it ever got this far.

RTLers, if you’re gonna be like this, I hope Ol’ Scratch has a special room assigned for you when your time is up. And, BTW, you ghouls can kiss my ass…

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:58:23pm

re: #127 changomo

iossarian,

I did say I agree that doomed children should be abortable. So I don’t see where we disagree?

Thanks

But you really, really, need to know when Charles believes that human life begins?

If you’ve been reading this blog for nine years, you understand why our ears have gone back.

130 McSpiff  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:58:25pm

Have we figured out who’s sock this one is?

131 iossarian  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:58:46pm

re: #127 changomo

iossarian,

I did say I agree that doomed children should be abortable. So I don’t see where we disagree?

Thanks

To clarify: where we disagree is on whether you are a dickhead or not.

132 Lidane  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:58:46pm

The troll is getting boring. Where is our grillmaster? I missed lunch.

133 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:59:39pm

re: #126 albusteve

I didn’t say he was using ‘morons’ for anyone else, Steve.

His comment about people placing their faith in fairy tales is a general comment about religious people, not reserved for those who impose their religious views on others.

134 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:59:39pm

re: #123 Big Steve

The debate that one can find a date where before abortion is allowable and after it is not is not every going to be scientifically valid. Given that abortion is legal, then abortion at any state of the fetus development from egg meets sperm to delivery carries no more nor less difference.

That science cannot answer a question does not mean that the question cannot be answered. In this case it is a social process. I disagree with your last sentence.

135 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 1:59:43pm

re: #128 talon_262

Exactly…the RTLers don’t give a shit about fetuses/babies suffering, but they want the mother to feel as guilty as inhumanly possible. That poor baby suffered more, IMO, in its short 15 minutes of life than it ever would have if the mother had been allowed to abort waaayyy before it ever got this far.

RTLers, if you’re gonna be like this, I hope Ol’ Scratch has a special room assigned for you when your time is up. And, BTW, you ghouls can kiss my ass…

I feel the same way. I am convinced not just by this story but other ones that the RTLers seem to value making women feel guilty as hell. Bunch of assholes if you ask me.

136 iossarian  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:01:09pm

re: #133 Obdicut

I didn’t say he was using ‘morons’ for anyone else, Steve.

His comment about people placing their faith in fairy tales is a general comment about religious people, not reserved for those who impose their religious views on others.

Agreed - attempting to shoehorn the whole belief/atheism argument into the thread is pretty sad.

137 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:01:17pm

re: #52 iossarian

iossarian,

That is correct, I’m okay with abortion in the first trimester, anytime in cases of incest, rape, physical health of the mother or if the child is doomed.

I didn’t think you were laughing at me as well.

Thanks for your thoughts.

138 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:01:45pm

re: #123 Big Steve

It’s a sorites paradox, any cut-off point is going to be arbitrary. It doesn’t mean that the fetus/embryo is always a human person, like anti-choicers like to argue. It’s just when selecting the cut-off point one must take the best data available. E.g. I think reasonable people should agree that before the cerebral cortex is formed the fetus cannot be considered a person since it has no functioning brain, which is a necessary pre-requisite. Even here the sorites paradox is in place since there is no single moment of “conversion”.

139 albusteve  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:02:19pm

re: #133 Obdicut

I didn’t say he was using ‘morons’ for anyone else, Steve.

His comment about people placing their faith in fairy tales is a general comment about religious people, not reserved for those who impose their religious views on others.

the comment relates to the original post, not a general comment

140 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:03:48pm

re: #53 b_sharp

b_sharp,

My State Senator for multiple terms believes in all the things you said liberals do not believe in

Source: Newsweek
newsweek.com

I need to go back to school?

141 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:03:59pm

re: #123 Big Steve

I also take issue with your last sentence since it entails that killing infants is OK - not in the law’s eyes of course, but in principle. Since there is no real change in the fetus/infant at the exit point.

142 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:04:38pm

re: #54 theheat

thehead - I think you got my positions mixed up - start at post 1

Thanks

143 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:06:37pm

re: #140 changomo

The Supreme Court has ruled that the first breath is what determines legal personhood.

Are you ever going to explain why this is an important point, when the fetus ‘becomes’ human?

144 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:06:55pm

Barbara Boxer link, lol

145 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:07:23pm

Spendocrats!

Where’s my grunge records? let’s bitch about Bill Clinton!

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:07:39pm

re: #140 changomo

b_sharp,

My State Senator for multiple terms believes in all the things you said liberals do not believe in

Source: Newsweek
[Link: www.newsweek.com…]

I need to go back to school?

Yes, I think you do.

147 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:07:45pm

Columbine!

148 iossarian  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:08:30pm

re: #145 WindUpBird

Spendocrats!

Where’s my grunge records? let’s bitch about Bill Clinton!

You know, it was conservative white males that gave black people their rights.

EAT THAT LIBERALS!

149 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:09:25pm

re: #148 iossarian

You know, it was conservative white males that gave black people their rights.

EAT THAT LIBERALS!

Grandpa said so! He said the freemasons control the government!

150 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:10:55pm

re: #138 Sergey Romanov

sorites paradox

You are so educational. Thanks.

151 iossarian  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:10:56pm

HALLO, I WOULD LIKE TO INTRODUCE MYSELF, MY LGF SCREEN NAME IS JOPANGEE AND I AM KIND OF NOT A LIBERAL, EXACTLY, BUT NOT A CONSERVATIVE EITHER.

I BELIEVE THAT ABORTION SHOULD BE LEGAL, BUT I HAVE ONE SIMPLE QUESTION FOR YOU LIBE^D^D^D LIZARDS OUT THERE:

WHY DOES MINOR TECHNICAL POINT OF NO IMPORTANCE INFLUENCE YOUR VIEW ON SPECIFIC CONSTITUTIONAL LEGAL RIGHTS OF MINORITIES? PLEASE TO GO ON THE RECORD?

LIKE I SAID, I AGREE WITH YOU! I AM NOT A CONSERVATIVE!

CAN WE BE FRIENDS? HALOL!

152 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:11:22pm

re: #142 changomo

I just heard of this new band, they’re called Hootie and the Blowfish

153 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:11:37pm

re: #55 jamesfirecat

James,

nice perspective - I never looked at it that way.

Thanks for your viewpoint.

However, your analogy misses one key element. Human B created the conditions Human A *would* be required to rely on Human B for existence - if your analogy is valid - there would be no moral expectation that parents feed/clothe/support their children until they are 18.

In fact many do not meet this obligation, and these children become warrants of the state.

154 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:11:50pm

re: #151 iossarian

While he listens to the swingin’ sounds of Ace of Base

155 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:11:57pm

This is so repulsive and sick as a bit of inhuman and compassionless law, that I simply do not have the words for it.

What will happen is that poor people will be forced to bear this sort of cruelty, while wealthier people will simply travel to more civilized states.

156 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:12:12pm

re: #153 changomo

did you hear? they’re gonna impeach Clinton! Paw said so!

157 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:13:08pm

re: #153 changomo

No, human B didn’t ‘create’ those conditions. Those conditions exist, biologically.

158 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:13:20pm

re: #61 WindUpBird

I’m a troll? WindUpBird - charles does a very good job at booting trolls. If you look at my posts, (even in the past) they have always been respectful and intellectually honest. Please do not categorize all your ideological opponents as bad people. Do not forget, this site once was of a very different political ideology.

159 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:13:52pm

re: #158 changomo

There’s this awesomely funny new show on TV, it’s called “Friends”

160 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:14:20pm

re: #67 blueraven

I don’t understand Fail…was I wrong that most liberals are pro-choice with very little restrictions?

161 iossarian  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:14:38pm

re: #158 changomo

Do not forget, this site once was of a very different political ideology.

THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!!!

To think that just a short while ago I was complaining about the lack of real high-quality trolls.

162 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:15:13pm

re: #159 WindUpBird

There’s this awesomely funny new show on TV, it’s called “Friends”

They’re canceling Seinfeld soon though and I am not liking this Yankees dynasty. Oh and it sucks being 12 with this 23 year old body.

163 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:15:13pm

re: #158 changomo

I’m a troll? WindUpBird - charles does a very good job at booting trolls. If you look at my posts, (even in the past) they have always been respectful and intellectually honest. Please do not categorize all your ideological opponents as bad people. Do not forget, this site once was of a very different political ideology.

You obviously have forgotten Gordon. Before your time, I guess. Remember?

164 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:15:22pm

re: #161 iossarian

THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!!!

To think that just a short while ago I was complaining about the lack of real high-quality trolls.

He’s doing the genteel act!

The genteel act is one of my favorite conservative troll acts

165 theheat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:15:30pm

Perplexed troll is perplexed.

166 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:15:34pm

re: #158 changomo

You’ve been demonstrably intellectually dishonest in this thread, with your strawman characterization of Lidane’s position, as well as your claim about what most liberals believe.

So, bullshit.

167 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:15:41pm

re: #161 iossarian

THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!!!

To think that just a short while ago I was complaining about the lack of real high-quality trolls.

I think we’re still lacking in high quality trolls…

168 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:16:20pm

re: #72 Charles

I believe a mother is always Human and has full rights under the constitution Charles. My question is, - when you do feel a fetus becomes a human being with rights under the constitution? and “don’t know” is a fair answer - because truth is I can prove your answer being right or wrong anyway. I’ve followed this site too long Charles and agree with you 90+ percent of the time and I respect your viewpoints enough to ask.

169 theheat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:17:04pm

Obtuse troll is willfully obtuse.

170 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:17:16pm

re: #153 changomo

Wards of the state - not warrants.

Further, need to ask you this…

Since most abortions, occur in the first trimester, how does a fetus, which does not have anything close to a functioning human brain - because it hasn’t grown enough of one yet for that in the first trimester count the same as a full human?

If you would disconnect life support from someone who is brain dead, then why is an abortion at this stage not exactly the same thing at least in terms of whether or not you are killing someone at that point? And no, of course a fetus if left to itself and normal would become a full human. That is not the point. The pont is, it isn’t brain alive yet in the same way, and you are discontinuing life support. How is that comparable to murder like the right wing claims?

171 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:17:39pm

re: #169 theheat

Obtuse troll is willfully obtuse.

Rude, too.

172 jaunte  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:17:47pm

re: #164 WindUpBird

Slipped a little with the ‘angry villagers’ comment, though.

173 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:18:19pm

re: #168 changomo

I believe a mother is always Human and has full rights under the constitution Charles. My question is, - when you do feel a fetus becomes a human being with rights under the constitution? and “don’t know” is a fair answer - because truth is I can prove your answer being right or wrong anyway. I’ve followed this site too long Charles and agree with you 90+ percent of the time and I respect your viewpoints enough to ask.

As far as the Constitution is concerned? When they’re born.

Next question.

174 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:18:20pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

really? Most liberals are not pro-choice?

175 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:18:23pm

re: #168 changomo

I believe a mother is always Human and has full rights under the constitution Charles. My question is, - when you do feel a fetus becomes a human being with rights under the constitution? and “don’t know” is a fair answer - because truth is I can prove your answer being right or wrong anyway. I’ve followed this site too long Charles and agree with you 90+ percent of the time and I respect your viewpoints enough to ask.

As far as purely legal personhood goes, I think Obdi already answered that.

176 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:18:34pm

re: #172 jaunte

Slipped a little with the ‘angry villagers’ comment, though.


The problem with the genteel act is that they can’t keep it up :D

177 theheat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:18:50pm

Redundant troll is redundant.

178 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:19:05pm

re: #173 JasonA

Slight modification— when they take their first breath.

179 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:19:06pm

re: #89 Obdicut

Judaism - Mishna.

I feel first trimester is a reasonable compromise.

180 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:19:34pm

re: #179 changomo

Can you try to actually answer? Compromise between what and what?

181 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:19:58pm

re: #92 Obdicut

good question, because I do believe in Judaism and a God.

182 theheat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:20:23pm

re: #180 Obdicut

Can you try to actually answer? Compromise between what and what?

Between its first claim it thought only in the first trimester. The opinion hasn’t changed. Just repeated. Endlessly.

183 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:20:48pm

re: #173 JasonA

As far as the Constitution is concerned? When they’re born.

Next question.

He doesn’t need to know what you think. He needs to know what Daddy thinks.

184 iossarian  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:20:49pm

re: #180 Obdicut

Can you try to actually answer? Compromise between what and what?

OOPS!

185 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:21:02pm

re: #174 changomo

really? Most liberals are not pro-choice?

Oh please do answer my question. Liberal or conservative really has nothing at all to do with neurology.

Is a fetus, which does not yet have a fully formed - or even close to fully formed brain the same as a person with a fully formed brain?

Further, how do you explain that the Bible clearly does not consider an abortion murder because the penalty for causing a miscarriage is not death.

How do you defend the pro-life position on either scientific or religious grounds?

186 Four More Tears  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:21:09pm

re: #178 Obdicut

Slight modification— when they take their first breath.

Wait, isn’t that when the wingnuts stop caring about them?

/

187 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:21:17pm

re: #129 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, sorry - I don’t know. I assumed at birth, that’s why I was asking why he would call the fetus alive or child.

188 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:21:42pm

re: #181 changomo

good question, because I do believe in Judaism and a God.

Poketroll just pokevolved

189 KingKenrod  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:21:58pm

re: #179 changomo

Judaism - Mishna.

I feel first trimester is a reasonable compromise.

Some (maybe most) serious fetal defects can’t be detected in the first trimester - like this case. So it’s not reasonable.

190 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:22:03pm

re: #131 iossarian

….sigh….and I’m the troll.

191 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:22:06pm

re: #186 JasonA

Wait, isn’t that when the wingnuts stop caring about them?

/

Yeah! No poison control for them… besides that’s when the original sin kicks in.

192 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:22:11pm

When I was in high school, I thought I was a republican. As I grew older, I realized I disagreed with their proposed policies more often than I agreed, and I realized I was probably more liberal than the average GOP member, so I switched my registration at the age of 22. For years that was my feeling: the GOP is wrong on most issues, but not out of malice.

In the past few years, I have woken up and realized that the GOP, today, is the face of unrestrained evil. It is a sick, twisted, and depraved shell of its former self. As far as I am concerned, anyone who still votes for GOP candidates, with exception of literally a handful of candidates, is advocating for evil.

This goes so far beyond simple disagreement. This is depraved and sick. This is evil.

193 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:22:25pm

re: #181 changomo

Can you explain how your belief in God and Judaism is relevant to whether or not you think abortion after the first trimester should be legal?

Or are you going to continue pathetically dodging?

I’ve got $5 on pathetic dodges.

194 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:22:59pm

well, it’s been fun guys, I gotta go work, I get paid by the job, not the hour ;-)

195 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:23:13pm

re: #179 changomo

Nonsense. All sorts of really terrible maladies in the fetus are only detectable later.

Further as per Mishna and Gemara, you pointed out Jewish law, the Baby is not a baby until it is born.

196 iossarian  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:23:52pm

Outtahere! Enjoy the party, everyone!

197 JRCMYP  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:23:58pm

And may I also add that this is why I want to scream when I hear politicians punt and say that abortion law should be left up to the states. No, it should not. We should have a strong federal law that protects the rights of women to make their own medical decisions with the help of their doctors. No asshole right to life activist should ever be in a position to tell me that I need to carry a pregnancy to term for any reason. I’m not a fucking incubator and I’m not going to give birth to a terminally ill baby and watch it die because you think it glorifies god or some other hideously delusional and sick fantasy.

I feel so badly for this family. This never should have happened. And for anyone who thinks that the family could have simply gotten on a plane and flown to another state to have the procedure done, let me say this: it happens all the time. and they have to spend thousands of dollars doing it. Which means that unless you have that money, you’re screwed. And they have to stay in a fucking hotel not a hospital or their home because only Planned Parenthood will help with late term terminations—if they will. Not everyone of them does.Plus, Dr. Tiller is dead. And no one else wants to get shot by the fucking right to life terrorists.

And I also want to point out that the freaks that think it’s such a great idea to force a woman to carry to term and watch a wanted child die? They actually don’t have to watch that with you, do they? They have no actual responsibility for the twisted morality that they are imposing on you.

They are sick, twisted misogynistic fucks.

198 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:24:33pm

re: #181 changomo

good question, because I do believe in Judaism and a God.

OK so if you are Jewish then you know about the relevant Jewish law yes?

A baby is not a baby until it is born under Jewish Law. Do you need me to cite the relevant gemarra?

199 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:26:16pm

re: #197 JRCMYP

I’d like to quote that whole thing in bold. Maybe if the comments go on for another 50 or so I will, just so it doesn’t get missed.

200 blueraven  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:27:04pm

re: #160 changomo

I don’t understand Fail…was I wrong that most liberals are pro-choice with very little restrictions?

Fail means Fail. You still paint with a broad brush on a subject you seem to know little about. Your picture is flat, one dimensional and quite boring.

Every pro-choice person I know will tell you a slightly different story about how they came to their position, and they have varying degrees of support for abortion.

201 JRCMYP  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:28:58pm

re: #199 wrenchwench

That’s fine.

202 theheat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:29:36pm

re: #197 JRCMYP

Beautiful. Perfect.

203 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:30:39pm

re: #174 changomo

really? Most liberals are not pro-choice?

No, most liberals do not believe “it is not a human/child/alive until birth”, which is what you actually said.

204 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:31:33pm

re: #187 changomo

Yeah, sorry - I don’t know. I assumed at birth, that’s why I was asking why he would call the fetus alive or child.

No one is suggesting that a fetus isn’t alive. Unless it’s dead, of course.

205 William of Orange  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:39:34pm

Coincidentally yesterday Dutch scientist revealed a new method to see if a baby was suffering from a birth defect very early on. Previous methods meant that a puncture had to be made to find out if a child was having difficulties. And those methods sometimes lead to terminated pregnancies.

With the new method you can tell with a 100% certainty if a child is having Down syndrome. There is certainty on the condition of the child and a decision to terminate the pregnancy can be made between doctors and parents to be. Abortion is legal over here. It’s even covered in insurance.
Over here you can decide yourself if you think your child is worth it living a life in agony and dependency. Bringing a child in need can be a very demanding task. Mind you, the decision to end a pregnancy is still not easy but at least you don’t have to make the child suffer once it’s born.

206 William of Orange  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:40:47pm

I said Down syndrome as an example but other birth defects are also traceable.

207 William of Orange  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:48:52pm

Charge the religious right with “Murder by indifference.”

208 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:55:31pm

re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist

that’s absolutely true, the same way that it’s impossible to say definitively there is a right or wrong unless their some macro structure beyond secular humanism.

209 Kid A  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:56:55pm

re: #3 _RememberTonyC

as long as the GOP insists on trying to overturn a woman’s right to choose, I can never register as a republican or give them a dime, even though there are other issues on which I agree with republicans. this type of story disgusts me

And if I said that I was going to pray tonight for these heartless bastards that made this couple watch, WATCH! this child gasp for air and die in their arms, I’d be lying. You made your bed, GOP. Now watch your pathetic party go the way of the dinosaurs.

210 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:57:01pm
211 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:57:50pm

re: #208 changomo

that’s absolutely true, the same way that it’s impossible to say definitively there is a right or wrong unless their some macro structure beyond secular humanism.

True, right and wrong are subjective. This doesn’t change with introduction of any “macro structure” or religion. Because, for example, God-given definitions of right and wrong are still subjective - it’s God’s opinion.

212 William of Orange  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:57:51pm

re: #27 changomo

b_sharp,

It’s not a strawman. What’s your position? Is it alive or not? Is it a child or not? Is it human or not?

Hey again, I’m pro-choice with certain restrictions, but I bring up the point because understanding your opponent is the first step in any argument - Knee Jerk accusations that the pro-life movement simply all want to destroy/hurt women is as enlightened as assuming the pro-choice movement are all a bunch of eugenics supporters

If you want to call a desperate attempt to breathe, suffering 15 minutes in pain and die a life… Yes, it’s a life. Bur it could have ended way earlier and much more dignified. This echo’s that clip posted here a few months back from a father to be who had the difficult task of bringing his wife to an abortion clinic because their baby was in a similar condition. He had to face two anti-abortion drones outside the hospital who failed to see nuance. Not every abortion is an act of convenience!!

And to wake you up once more here’s that clip.

213 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:58:37pm

re: #205 William of Orange

Not to mention that in America, you can be really quite fucked financially if you’re the parent of a child with disabilities, our system being what it is

214 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 2:59:45pm

re: #13 changomo

Please clarify, was the fetus a child/alive or not? I believe your position is it is not a human/child/alive until birth as well as many liberals here.

Wrong question and stupid assumption. It never stopped being alive. Do you think sperm and oocytes are dead?

I value all life. Bacteria. Arthropods. Plants. Molluscs. Flagellated protists. And yes, even fetuses. But it would be stupid of me to value those things above the practical consequences of trying to preserve them no matter cost. I still need to eat, for example, and a plant/animal plus millions of bacteria need to die for that to happen.

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:05:02pm

re: #208 changomo

that’s absolutely true, the same way that it’s impossible to say definitively there is a right or wrong unless their some macro structure beyond secular humanism.

How did secular humanism get into this?

216 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:07:11pm

that’s I beleieve where you got my previousre: #212 William of Orange

I agree William of Orange, she should have been allowed to terminate the pregnancy.

217 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:08:07pm

re: #215 SanFranciscoZionist

How did secular humanism get into this?

Because trololo.

218 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:09:56pm

re: #198 LudwigVanQuixote

I’m not orthodox, but I based it on Yev. 69b, e.g. Schiff 33

Source:
en.wikipedia.org

Thanks for your question.

Shalom.

219 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:10:40pm

re: #195 LudwigVanQuixote

see above.

Thanks

220 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:11:18pm

re: #218 changomo

I’m not orthodox, but I based it on Yev. 69b, e.g. Schiff 33

Source:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Thanks for your question.

Shalom.

Ugh. You do understand that “e.g. Schiff 33” is not part of the Talmudic citation, right?

221 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:12:13pm

re: #193 Obdicut

see above

thx

and please afford me the same civility I have been giving all of you.

222 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:13:31pm

re: #220 Sergey Romanov

yes, but I highlighted the ref on wiki.

However, did it not answer LudwigVanQuixote question/challenge?

Thanks

223 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:16:46pm

re: #222 changomo

yes, but I highlighted the ref on wiki.


So? You posted it all together. This indicates that you don’t understand what exactly you have posted (which is partially a reference to Yevamoth and partially a short reference to Schiff’s book, nonsensical without the full reference) and calls your claim about being serious about Judaism into question.

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:18:58pm

Changomo, let us sum up:

It appears that Charles is not planning to discuss his thoughts about the beginning of life with you.

You appear to agree with the general sentiment on this thread that this family should not have been prevented from seeking a late-term abortion under the unusual circumstances presented.

And Barbara Boxer is still pro-choice.

I miss anything here?

225 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:19:32pm

re: #185 LudwigVanQuixote

ludwig, on your first question - see above - I answered it.

on your second question - I used to believe the same thing - until I looked at the original Hebrew. NRSV, and RSV, NASB (pre99) have said ‘miscarriage’ - but the Hebrew word for miscarriage is shakal”, that is not used here - nor is “nephel” (another Hebrew world - the word used is “yatsa”, this is ordinarily used to refer to live birth.

take that what you will, but it was an interesting discovery.

Hope this clarifies my position.

226 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:22:34pm

re: #225 changomo

barbara boxer

227 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:22:48pm

re: #221 changomo

also, barbara boxer, did I mention?

228 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:23:07pm

re: #218 changomo

I heard that Barbara Boxer is about

229 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:23:24pm

re: #208 changomo

who knows what evil lurks in the mind of Barbara Bxer

230 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:24:02pm

re: #223 Sergey Romanov

Sergey, Ludwig asked me why I thought abortion was okay in the first trimester. I told him because I believe in Judaism. Ludwig responded that there is nothing in Judaism that says it’s okay to have an abortion in the first trimester and like you, challenged my understanding of Jewish Law.

I agree, I am no super scholar, - but Talmud states in a passage on priestly rules that the fetus “is considered to be mere water” until its 40th day…

I posted the link from Wiki to that. Now whether you believe I’m serious about Judaism or not, I don’t think I can (nor will I try to convince you) but I hope this clarifies the post.

Thanks

231 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:24:04pm

re: #153 changomo

James,

nice perspective - I never looked at it that way.

Thanks for your viewpoint.

However, your analogy misses one key element. Human B created the conditions Human A *would* be required to rely on Human B for existence - if your analogy is valid - there would be no moral expectation that parents feed/clothe/support their children until they are 18.

In fact many do not meet this obligation, and these children become warrants of the state.

Except that here’ is the problem…

How do you know that human be was created the conditions intentionally?

In our society we are allowed to put children up for adoption without it being a crime.

Thus clearly society is willing to let people wash their hands of those they should be looking after, they just are not allowed to mistreat those they have agreed to look after.

A woman getting an abortion is washing her hands of the situation and refusing to look after a child just like a woman giving the child up for adoption is….

232 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:24:44pm

re: #230 changomo

Barbara Boxer is going to steal your underwear from your drawers while you sleep

233 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:25:33pm

re: #218 changomo

Barbara Boxer is coming for you in the darkness

234 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:25:42pm

re: #189 KingKenrod

see post #230

Thanks

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:25:58pm

re: #229 WindUpBird

who knows what evil lurks in the mind of Barbara Bxer

The SHADOW knows!

Didn’t we used to have a guy around here who used that as his nic?

Also, the classic mishearing, “Who knows what evil lurks in the hot cement?” always reminds me of Los Angeles.

236 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:26:01pm

re: #233 WindUpBird

again…and I am ‘supposedly’ the troll here.

237 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:27:46pm

re: #176 WindUpBird

that’s a strange comment since I’ve been a member for a while now, and you, Charles, and anybody can take a look at my history and see if I’m polite or not….

238 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:28:08pm

re: #232 WindUpBird

Barbara Boxer is going to steal your underwear from your drawers while you sleep

My father still has a pair of boxer shorts with Boxer’s name all over them. He bought them at a fundraiser for one of her campaigns.

They’re Boxer boxers.

So, technically, if she stole them out of his drawers while he slept, it could be argued that they were sort of hers to begin with. Except that he paid for them.

Of course, my father being my father, he’d be thrilled to wake up in the night and find Barbara Boxer rummaging in his dresser.

239 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:28:31pm

re: #175 Sergey Romanov

you are correct, I’m not debating the legal status however…

240 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:29:07pm

re: #170 LudwigVanQuixote

damn, how embarrassing for me. Sorry - you’re right wards.

Thanks

241 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:30:41pm

re: #163 wrenchwench

I have no clue who “gordon” but you guys can scan my previous posts in past threads and make your own conclusions if I’m trying to troll or not, a sock puppet, or some Charles stalker that some how was able to get past all the defenses all this time….

242 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:31:13pm

re: #230 changomo

Ludwig responded that there is nothing in Judaism that says it’s okay to have an abortion in the first trimester

That’s just a stupid lie.

243 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:32:21pm

re: #237 changomo

Lying about what others have said is, indeed, rather rude.

244 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:33:02pm

re: #239 changomo

you are correct, I’m not debating the legal status however…

What, precisely, are you debating?

245 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:34:53pm

re: #230 changomo

I agree, I am no super scholar, - but Talmud states in a passage on priestly rules that the fetus “is considered to be mere water” until its 40th day…

You can’t be impregnated by water nor does water develop into a human being. Are you saying you don’t consider sperm, oocytes, zygotes, blastulas, etc to be alive?

246 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:35:47pm

re: #98 WindUpBird

really?

I said-> Knee Jerk accusations that the pro-life movement simply all want to destroy/hurt women

Lidance said->They’re not knee jerk accusations if they’re true. And these assholes aren’t pro-life. They’re anti-choice, anti-reason, and anti-woman

WindUpBird, I don’t mind debating honestly, but when you create your own reality or truth - it’s hard to continue a constructive dialog. Everything is here on this blog to verify, so it’s not exactly like I can put things in people’s mouths that is not recorded and easily re quoted.

Please keep it honest.

247 martinsmithy  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:36:48pm

Abortion is a tough issue. I refuse to acknowledge that a fetus is only a “thing” until it exits it’s mother’s womb through the vaginal canal or through a caesarian section. By the logic of some pro-choicers, a woman could have an abortion while in labor with a perfectly healthy child, perhaps because she was upset that the child wasn’t male.

But I think this logic is a result of a belief that the absolutism of the anti-abortion side must be met with an equally firm absolutism. It’s unfortunate that this is the case, but I think the primary fault of this is the intransigence of the anti-abortion forces, who will gladly admit that they would like to stop most forms of birth control, because they are the moral equivalent of abortion.

I’m sure we could come up with a messy, but livable compromise on this issue, which acknowledged a mother’s right to make the decision, but put some limits on it (no third term abortion of a healthy fetus except if the mother’s life is in danger, no abortion for purposes of gender selection, etc), but the compromise would remain under constant attack by the fanatical anti-abortion zealots. So we must remain with our polarized politics on this issue indefinitely.

248 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:37:22pm

re: #246 changomo

Do you think Lidane’s ‘these assholes’ referred to everyone who has pro-life opinions, or these assholes who made this law and support it?

249 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:38:10pm

re: #247 martinsmithy

By the logic of some pro-choicers, a woman could have an abortion while in labor with a perfectly healthy child, perhaps because she was upset that the child wasn’t male.

Please point out one of these people.

250 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:38:46pm

re: #246 changomo

really?

I said-> Knee Jerk accusations that the pro-life movement simply all want to destroy/hurt women

Lidance said->They’re not knee jerk accusations if they’re true. And these assholes aren’t pro-life. They’re anti-choice, anti-reason, and anti-woman

WindUpBird, I don’t mind debating honestly, but when you create your own reality or truth - it’s hard to continue a constructive dialog. Everything is here on this blog to verify, so it’s not exactly like I can put things in people’s mouths that is not recorded and easily re quoted.

Please keep it honest.

‘These assholes’ was not, IMHI, meant to cover the entire pro-life movement. You might want to ask Lidane for clarification on that.

251 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:39:40pm

re: #247 martinsmithy

Abortion is a tough issue. I refuse to acknowledge that a fetus is only a “thing” until it exits it’s mother’s womb through the vaginal canal or through a caesarian section. By the logic of some pro-choicers, a woman could have an abortion while in labor with a perfectly healthy child, perhaps because she was upset that the child wasn’t male.

But I think this logic is a result of a belief that the absolutism of the anti-abortion side must be met with an equally firm absolutism. It’s unfortunate that this is the case, but I think the primary fault of this is the intransigence of the anti-abortion forces, who will gladly admit that they would like to stop most forms of birth control, because they are the moral equivalent of abortion.

I’m sure we could come up with a messy, but livable compromise on this issue, which acknowledged a mother’s right to make the decision, but put some limits on it (no third term abortion of a healthy fetus except if the mother’s life is in danger, no abortion for purposes of gender selection, etc), but the compromise would remain under constant attack by the fanatical anti-abortion zealots. So we must remain with our polarized politics on this issue indefinitely.

Does the fetus have a right to the mother’s organs against her will?

If so why?

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:39:49pm

re: #247 martinsmithy


I’m sure we could come up with a messy, but livable compromise on this issue, which acknowledged a mother’s right to make the decision, but put some limits on it (no third term abortion of a healthy fetus except if the mother’s life is in danger, no abortion for purposes of gender selection, etc)

I think we call that “Roe v. Wade.”

but the compromise would remain under constant attack by the fanatical anti-abortion zealots.

Yep.

253 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:45:03pm

So changomo, are they alive?

*crickets*

254 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:45:20pm

re: #231 jamesfirecat

I’m okay with abortion in cases of rape though…

255 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:45:37pm

re: #253 prononymous

I’m sorry, is who alive?

256 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:46:24pm

re: #254 changomo

I’m okay with abortion in cases of rape though…

Good.

Now as a thought experiment, explain to me why, in detail.

257 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:48:49pm

re: #247 martinsmithy

no abortion for purposes of gender selection

How so? Before the third trimester - for any reason whatsoever.

258 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:48:51pm

re: #255 changomo

I’m sorry, is who alive?


Sperm, oocytes, zygotes, blastulas, etc.

259 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:49:42pm

re: #258 prononymous

nope, I don’t consider them alive.

260 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:49:58pm

re: #140 changomo

b_sharp,

My State Senator for multiple terms believes in all the things you said liberals do not believe in

Source: Newsweek
[Link: www.newsweek.com…]

I need to go back to school?

You are conflating a legal definition with a moral definition. The fetus, while still in the womb is not accessible as a separate entity from the mother so giving it constitutional protections is difficult. That does not mean the fetus is not a child, nor does it mean the fetus is not a human as you keep suggesting some liberals believe. The term ‘fetus’ is a descriptive technical term that has been defined as a mammal from viability to birth and has no moral connotation.

BTW, picking an non-representative extreme view and using it to characterize a group in general is a bit disingenuous.

261 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:50:45pm

re: #259 changomo

nope, I don’t consider them alive.

Because of the passage you mentioned? Or do you really think that they are inanimate until then?

262 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:51:24pm

re: #256 jamesfirecat

well, first because it’s not by choice, and it can be done in the 1st trimester, a time period that I think the fetus is not a human yet.

263 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:52:11pm

re: #262 changomo

well, first because it’s not by choice, and it can be done in the 1st trimester, a time period that I think the fetus is not a human yet.

Okay then.

Now is the choice to have sex the same as the choice to bear a child?

264 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:52:41pm

re: #261 prononymous

both, and inanimate in the sense that there is no sentience in them.re: #263 jamesfirecat

nope

265 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:53:10pm

re: #264 changomo

Can you explain why you lied about what Ludwig said, please?

266 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:54:08pm

re: #264 changomo

both, and inanimate in the sense that there is no sentience in them.


Inanimate doesn’t mean without sentience. Do you think that those cells are literally dead until then?

267 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:54:57pm

re: #174 changomo

really? Most liberals are not pro-choice?

Read for comprehension, not bias confirmation.

268 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:57:00pm

re: #197 JRCMYP

And may I also add that this is why I want to scream when I hear politicians punt and say that abortion law should be left up to the states. No, it should not. We should have a strong federal law that protects the rights of women to make their own medical decisions with the help of their doctors. No asshole right to life activist should ever be in a position to tell me that I need to carry a pregnancy to term for any reason. I’m not a fucking incubator and I’m not going to give birth to a terminally ill baby and watch it die because you think it glorifies god or some other hideously delusional and sick fantasy.

I feel so badly for this family. This never should have happened. And for anyone who thinks that the family could have simply gotten on a plane and flown to another state to have the procedure done, let me say this: it happens all the time. and they have to spend thousands of dollars doing it. Which means that unless you have that money, you’re screwed. And they have to stay in a fucking hotel not a hospital or their home because only Planned Parenthood will help with late term terminations—if they will. Not everyone of them does.Plus, Dr. Tiller is dead. And no one else wants to get shot by the fucking right to life terrorists.

And I also want to point out that the freaks that think it’s such a great idea to force a woman to carry to term and watch a wanted child die? They actually don’t have to watch that with you, do they? They have no actual responsibility for the twisted morality that they are imposing on you.

They are sick, twisted misogynistic fucks.

QFT

269 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:59:02pm

re: #264 changomo

both, and inanimate in the sense that there is no sentience in them.re: #263 jamesfirecat

nope

Then if it isn’t… how is a child of rape different from any other child, in the sense of weather or not the mother wants to bring it to term or not?


It may be a tautology but at the end of the day, the only way the mother can consent to carry the child to term, is for her to consent to carry the child to term.

No actions she has taken part in, or has had done to her before it can make a difference.

I believe that at any point the mother should have the right to have the child removed from her body in as humane a way as possible.

In turn, if the state wishes and is willing to put up the money the child can be put on a life support machine to try and keep it alive long enough to put up for adoption.

We can’t impose laws on what people can do with their organs without setting some very dark precedents…

270 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:59:04pm

re: #214 prononymous

Wrong question and stupid assumption. It never stopped being alive. Do you think sperm and oocytes are dead?

I value all life. Bacteria. Arthropods. Plants. Molluscs. Flagellated protists. And yes, even fetuses. But it would be stupid of me to value those things above the practical consequences of trying to preserve them no matter cost. I still need to eat, for example, and a plant/animal plus millions of bacteria need to die for that to happen.

I agree, although I’m not so sure about the self Flagellating protists.

271 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:59:47pm

re: #260 b_sharp

lidane, sfzionist, b_sharp,

If there is one thing I concede, it is this - I agree it is unfair to characterize liberals as not thinking a fetus is a child, human, alive. As you 3 assert, many liberals believe a fetus is alive/human/child - and it was short sighted of me to state that liberals feel fetuses don’t believe they are alive, human or children.

To be completely honest, this was a arrogant assumption on my part - caused by my (admittedly narrow) mindset that a person would never feel it would be morally or pragmatically okay to terminate a living human child; that only the destruction of a mass of cells was the issue at hand…

272 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 3:59:51pm

re: #266 prononymous

Inanimate doesn’t mean without sentience. Do you think that those cells are literally dead until then?

Bear in mind that unless you’re one of the “Chazal said it, I believe it, and that settles it” sorts of people, the Talmud deals in law, rather than strict scientific fact. “As water” does not mean it’s abiotic, I would argue, it means that legally, it is not considered as a developing child would be.

273 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:00:18pm

re: #270 b_sharp

I agree, although I’m not so sure about the self Flagellating protists.

Lol. I value fundamentalist protist life as well.

274 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:00:45pm

I know many are expecting lighting fast posts from your questions, you must realize I am addressing about 10 different people at the same time. So please be patient with my responses.

275 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:02:49pm

re: #272 SanFranciscoZionist

Bear in mind that unless you’re one of the “Chazal said it, I believe it, and that settles it” sorts of people, the Talmud deals in law, rather than strict scientific fact. “As water” does not mean it’s abiotic, I would argue, it means that legally, it is not considered as a developing child would be.

I understand. It is a question that leads to better questions depending on the answer. I’m not here to put down or challenge their faith - I just need to know where they are coming from before I can dig into the meat of the discussion.

276 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:03:40pm

re: #274 changomo

Nobody is expecting any sort of genuine response from you, dude, so don’t worry.

I mean, you just finally, laboriously pushed your troll-cart over the finish line with this new-found surprise and shock that those evil, evil liberals want to kill children; subtlety is not your strong suit.

277 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:04:01pm

re: #265 Obdicut

Certainly, in post #195 - Ludwig says my assertion that I gain my view on abortion from Judaism being okay in early pregnancy as “Nonsense”

278 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:05:10pm

re: #276 Obdicut

Obdicut, I know you desperately want me to be a troll. But I’ve consistently stated my pro-choice for early pregnancy, doesn’t that make me also an enemy of the religious right?

279 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:07:02pm

re: #239 changomo

you are correct, I’m not debating the legal status however…

Why did you bring up the Constitutional rights then?

280 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:08:06pm

re: #277 changomo

Certainly, in post #195 - Ludwig says my assertion that I gain my view on abortion from Judaism being okay in early pregnancy as “Nonsense”

You’re intentionally misrepresenting his post, though, which is a lie. It’s very obvious. nobody believes otherwise. I don’t get the point of this lie.

I asked what the point of your arbitrary cut-off was. You cited something. Ludwig called it nonsense, pointing out that there is reason to allow abortion past that point according to Jewish law. You then lied and transformed this into:


Ludwig responded that there is nothing in Judaism that says it’s okay to have an abortion in the first trimester

Which is just a flat-out, obvious, stupid, shitty lie.

Why do you think people won’t notice you lying all the time?

281 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:08:34pm

re: #279 Sergey Romanov

No, I posted that link when I was told no liberal feels that a fetus is not a human being, child, alive, until they are born.

282 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:09:05pm

re: #266 prononymous

Inanimate doesn’t mean without sentience. Do you think that those cells are literally dead until then?

As long as cells are absorbing energy and replicating they aren’t inanimate. Even before conception, inanimate is not an accurate description and changomo should know that.

283 Lidane  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:09:19pm

re: #246 changomo

Lidane said->They’re not knee jerk accusations if they’re true. And these assholes aren’t pro-life. They’re anti-choice, anti-reason, and anti-woman.

Yes. These assholes. The ones who passed this barbaric, inhuman, morally ubankrupt law in Nebraska and the anti-choice, anti-reason, anti-woman nutjobs who said that the law worked as intended and who minimized the horror that they inflicted on this couple. The ones who have made it their mission in life to punish and traumatize women with punitive abortion laws like these because they hate women and want to control them.

How hard is that to understand again?

284 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:09:54pm

re: #283 Lidane

Lidane, I’m not challenging you - I said in my previous posts - I know this is what you believe.

285 Lidane  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:10:51pm

re: #284 changomo

You don’t know shit about what I believe or what I think. You’re just trolling this thread.

STFU and go away. You’re boring.

286 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:11:06pm

re: #282 b_sharp

As long as cells are absorbing energy and replicating they aren’t inanimate. Even before conception, inanimate is not an accurate description and changomo should know that.

Whoa man, stop right there! You are spoiling the ending. ;)

287 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:11:53pm

re: #280 Obdicut

Ludwig, Obdicut:

If I misunderstood your post, I apologize - Let’s start fresh.

Okay Ludwig - do you still think that my views on the first 40 days and the status of said fetus has no connection to Judaism?

Is that Fair?

288 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:12:29pm

re: #281 changomo

No, I posted that link when I was told no liberal feels that a fetus is not a human being, child, alive, until they are born.

What? Let me reconstruct the sequence of events.

1. littlegreenfootballs.com

You:

I believe a mother is always Human and has full rights under the constitution Charles. My question is, - when you do feel a fetus becomes a human being with rights under the constitution?

2. littlegreenfootballs.com

Me:

As far as purely legal personhood goes, I think Obdi already answered that.

3. littlegreenfootballs.com

You:

you are correct, I’m not debating the legal status however…

4. Me:

Why did you bring up the Constitutional rights then?

5. You:

No, I posted that link when I was told no liberal feels that a fetus is not a human being, child, alive, until they are born.

6. Me: WTF?

289 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:12:59pm

re: #278 changomo

Obdicut, I know you desperately want me to be a troll. But I’ve consistently stated my pro-choice for early pregnancy, doesn’t that make me also an enemy of the religious right?

Your relationship with the religious right is up to you.

My question to you is this—in what way do you think your views on abortion distinguish you from most people posting here? Or do I misunderstand where you’re coming from? You seem to assume that there’s some sort of deep gap here, as you essentially state normal pro-life views that essentially match the general majority around here.

290 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:13:13pm

re: #271 changomo

lidane, sfzionist, b_sharp,

If there is one thing I concede, it is this - I agree it is unfair to characterize liberals as not thinking a fetus is a child, human, alive. As you 3 assert, many liberals believe a fetus is alive/human/child - and it was short sighted of me to state that liberals feel fetuses don’t believe they are alive, human or children.

To be completely honest, this was a arrogant assumption on my part - caused by my (admittedly narrow) mindset that a person would never feel it would be morally or pragmatically okay to terminate a living human child; that only the destruction of a mass of cells was the issue at hand…

An appeal to emotion with only slightly feigned sarcasm, well done.

291 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:13:16pm

re: #267 b_sharp

I don’t understand b_sharp - are there not certain truths for all political spectrums? Is that statement false?

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:13:58pm

re: #284 changomo

Lidane, I’m not challenging you - I said in my previous posts - I know this is what you believe.

What do YOU believe?

293 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:15:45pm

re: #288 Sergey Romanov

Sergey, thanks for the clarification - that is my mistake - I thought you were referencing my post regarding Barbara Boxer, when you have a dialogue with 10 different people at once, things can get confusing.

My fault.

But as far as legal rights, you’re right.

294 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:16:24pm

re: #293 changomo

When you lie constantly, things get even more confusing.

295 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:16:47pm

re: #292 SanFranciscoZionist

I stated earlier in this post

1) Abortion should be allowed in first trimester*
2) In cases where the baby is doomed (anytime during pregnancy)
3) In cases where the physical health of the mother is in question at anytime.

I’m for stem cell research too.

296 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:16:49pm

Seven replies to others without a response to my question.

Avoidance is common when someone anticipates they are about to get logically grilled and eaten.

297 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:18:15pm

re: #278 changomo

Obdicut, I know you desperately want me to be a troll. But I’ve consistently stated my pro-choice for early pregnancy, doesn’t that make me also an enemy of the religious right?

Your stated position, whether accurate or not, does not ameliorate your subsequent arguments. It is those arguments, and your stated basis for those arguments that is being questioned. Bad, uninformed arguments are bad, uninformed arguments irrespective of the political stance.

298 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:19:11pm

re: #266 prononymous

I’m sorry prononymous - it’s hard to manage 10 threads at simultaneously - to answer your question - no, I think they are alive. Now Virsus’ that’s sort of a half/half.

299 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:19:40pm

re: #286 prononymous

Whoa man, stop right there! You are spoiling the ending. ;)

Did I let the catalyst out of the bag again?

300 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:21:03pm

re: #294 Obdicut

Obdicut, I did not intend to misunderstand Ludwig’s post. As I stated to another person, I know these threads are recorded so past statements can easily be re-quoted. I believe the question is whether my view had any basis in Judaism. Was that question answered sufficiently for you and Ludwig?

301 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:21:33pm

re: #295 changomo

I stated earlier in this post

1) Abortion should be allowed in first trimester*
2) In cases where the baby is doomed (anytime during pregnancy)
3) In cases where the physical health of the mother is in question at anytime.

I’m for stem cell research too.

I think then that you have a mainstream pro-choice stance which closely matches most liberal and centrist Americans’.

And yet, you address this crowd as though you were an outsider, likely to rile us up, and you occasionally use language that seems straight out of an attack playbook on ‘liberals wanting abortion on demand’. As an example, your comment in #271 “To be completely honest, this was a arrogant assumption on my part - caused by my (admittedly narrow) mindset that a person would never feel it would be morally or pragmatically okay to terminate a living human child; that only the destruction of a mass of cells was the issue at hand…”

This does not sound like the thinking of someone with the stances you actually claim.

So, what gives?

302 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:23:22pm

re: #290 b_sharp

b_sharp, It’s sad but I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic - the question I’ve posed since the beginning of this thread is when/if do people feel a fetus becomes a human child? In fact that was the direct question I posed to Charles’

It wasn’t loaded at all since I think abortion is okay in certain circumstances. So characterizations that I’m sort of right-wing religious wing nut I think is un-fair.

303 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:23:44pm

re: #300 changomo

You can give up trying to convince me you’re an honest debater. It’s never going to work. You’re a very, very obvious liar, from the way you intentionally misunderstood Lidane to the way you ‘misunderstood’ Ludwig’s post— a post arguing for abortion to be rabbinically allowed beyond the first trimester— as calling your view that abortion was allowed in the first trimester ‘nonsense’. Or your lie about not talking about legal status, when referencing constitutional rights.

It’s not going to work. Nobody is going to believe you. I’m not sure why you think anyone will actually fall for your transparent bullshit.

304 sagehen  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:23:53pm

re: #247 martinsmithy

I’m sure we could come up with a messy, but livable compromise on this issue, which acknowledged a mother’s right to make the decision, but put some limits on it (no third term abortion of a healthy fetus except if the mother’s life is in danger, no abortion for purposes of gender selection, etc), but the compromise would remain under constant attack by the fanatical anti-abortion zealots. So we must remain with our polarized politics on this issue indefinitely.

We have a messy but livable compromise on this issue; it’s called Roe v. Wade.

Wow, that was easy.

And yes, it has remained under constant attack by the fanatical anti-abortion zealots.

You just “predicted” the last 40 years. Well done.

305 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:24:17pm

re: #302 changomo

So characterizations that I’m sort of right-wing religious wing nut I think is un-fair.

Another lie.

306 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:26:36pm

re: #298 changomo

I’m sorry prononymous - it’s hard to manage 10 threads at simultaneously - to answer your question - no, I think they are alive. Now Virsus’ that’s sort of a half/half.

Well then we can put an end to your misconception right here. Sperm, oocytes, blastulas, etc all are alive as far as biology is concerned.

They all have metabolisms. They convert certain molecules into ATP to power cellular functions. They have DNA that gets coded into proteins. Et cetera, et cetera. By the biological definition, they are alive.

307 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:27:11pm

re: #291 changomo

I don’t understand b_sharp - are there not certain truths for all political spectrums? Is that statement false?

You are thinking in binary terms. Although we categorize, sometimes in stark contrasts, to save energy in making decisions, most things, including political beliefs, exist in a continuum. The concept of truth itself is not absolute.

Political beliefs are based on an extremely large pool of ideas where two people of the same political intent will differ on some and agree on others.

308 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:28:10pm

re: #301 SanFranciscoZionist

Hi SFZionist, thanks for your post - I’m not trying to be offensive - passive or overt - I know a lot of people that think it’s okay to abort a baby late term. I can’t wrap my head around that, in the sense I feel there is a point where a fetus is a human being. As I stated, it appeared to me that Charles’ had this view (I may be incorrect) hence I asked him direct. Now, whether he answers me or not - I found it odd he would label a 20 week old an “Alive Baby” (his words) yet be okay with terminating it in a different circumstance.

I hope this clarifies things.

309 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:28:47pm

re: #306 prononymous

uh…..I said I believed they *are* alive?

*confused*

310 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:29:46pm

re: #308 changomo

I found it odd he would label a 20 week old an “Alive Baby” (his words)

Another lie.

Man, you keep them coming fast and furious.

311 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:30:15pm

re: #309 changomo

uh…I said I believed they *are* alive?

*confused*

OOPS. My mistake.

I’ll revise and repost my point in a minute.

312 changomo  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:30:21pm

alright, thanks all for the comments - going to take a nap now. If I missed your comment - I’m sorry, I’ll try to answer them another time.

Cheers

313 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:33:27pm

Or not. The point would have been about why you should be allowed to apply your own definition of what you “consider” human life when that is a cultural or personal concept that others don’t agree with.

But I won’t bother now.

314 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:35:19pm

re: #302 changomo

b_sharp, It’s sad but I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic - the question I’ve posed since the beginning of this thread is when/if do people feel a fetus becomes a human child? In fact that was the direct question I posed to Charles’

It wasn’t loaded at all since I think abortion is okay in certain circumstances. So characterizations that I’m sort of right-wing religious wing nut I think is un-fair.

I didn’t characterize you as that, did someone else?

I characterized you as uninformed with a tendency to over simplify. Both states can be rectified.

Reasons and timing of abortion changes with each situation and trying to stick with some hard and fast rule in all cases is neither practical nor ethical.

Your argument requires we justify a hard and fast rule that doesn’t exist, at least in my mind. (fast as in fixed)

315 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:36:54pm

re: #306 prononymous

Well then we can put an end to your misconception right here. Sperm, oocytes, blastulas, etc all are alive as far as biology is concerned.

They all have metabolisms. They convert certain molecules into ATP to power cellular functions. They have DNA that gets coded into proteins. Et cetera, et cetera. By the biological definition, they are alive.

OK, smartypants, how about viruses and/or prions. ;P

316 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:39:24pm

re: #311 prononymous

OOPS. My mistake.

I’ll revise and repost my point in a minute.

I ruined the punch line for you didn’t I. Sorry.

(Hangs head and kicks stone)

317 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:40:29pm

re: #308 changomo

Hi SFZionist, thanks for your post - I’m not trying to be offensive - passive or overt - I know a lot of people that think it’s okay to abort a baby late term. I can’t wrap my head around that, in the sense I feel there is a point where a fetus is a human being. As I stated, it appeared to me that Charles’ had this view (I may be incorrect) hence I asked him direct. Now, whether he answers me or not - I found it odd he would label a 20 week old an “Alive Baby” (his words) yet be okay with terminating it in a different circumstance.

I hope this clarifies things.

1. I don’t think ‘a lot of people’ think late term abortions are ‘OK’, except in extreme medical circumstances such as this one. You have stated that you also believe in late-term abortion under such circumstances.

2. This woman’s water broke at 22 weeks, and she gave birth to a live infant, hence the term ‘live baby’. The child died, because she was not viable.

3. You state that you consider abortion acceptable after the first trimester if the baby is ‘doomed’, or the mother’s life or health are in jeopardy. How can Charles’ use seem odd to you when you appear to hold the same belief?

318 Lidane  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:40:40pm

Because I’m officially on spring break until the 21st and this troll is incredibly boring, here’s something to liven up the joint:

Yes, I’m a kid at heart. Heh. :D

319 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:41:19pm

re: #315 b_sharp

OK, smartypants, how about viruses and/or prions. ;P

Personally, I put the cutoff at having a metabolism. But of course that is far from universally accepted.

re: #316 b_sharp

I ruined the punch line for you didn’t I. Sorry.

(Hangs head and kicks stone)

No problem. I don’t really see that we were going to get any kind of thoughtful debate out of them.

320 lanaty  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 4:59:54pm

re: #43 jamesfirecat

I believe that a child is alive and a human being with all the other rights of a human being from a moment of conception.

Do you believe a child has a right to use its mother’s organs without her permission?

Thank you for this. This is such a good point. I’m pro-choice and always have been and always will be. I do think a baby is alive and human in utero—it’s growing, it moves around, it has human DNA, etc. It certainly isn’t sentient for a good portion of pregnancy but sentience isn’t the point to argue when discussing the right to life—after all, patients with dementia aren’t necessarily sentient either. The point to argue is precisely the one you mentioned. Thank you for succinctly making that clear.

Will pro-lifers ever move away from the middle ages and buy the concept that the quality of a woman’s life matters?

321 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 5:08:43pm

re: #320 lanaty

Thank you for this. This is such a good point. I’m pro-choice and always have been and always will be. I do think a baby is alive and human in utero—it’s growing, it moves around, it has human DNA, etc. It certainly isn’t sentient for a good portion of pregnancy but sentience isn’t the point to argue when discussing the right to life—after all, patients with dementia aren’t necessarily sentient either. The point to argue is precisely the one you mentioned. Thank you for succinctly making that clear.

Will pro-lifers ever move away from the middle ages and buy the concept that the quality of a woman’s life matters?

Good points.

It isn’t just the quality of life of the woman that is affected by being forced to have a baby they don’t want or can’t support. It goes directly to the quality of life of the subsequent child as well.

322 lanaty  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 5:09:48pm

re: #153 changomo

James,

nice perspective - I never looked at it that way.

Thanks for your viewpoint.

However, your analogy misses one key element. Human B created the conditions Human A *would* be required to rely on Human B for existence - if your analogy is valid - there would be no moral expectation that parents feed/clothe/support their children until they are 18.

In fact many do not meet this obligation, and these children become warrants of the state.

There is no moral or legal expectation that parents feed/clothe/support their children until they are 18. Parents freely have the right to make their babies warrants of the state—precisely the “wonderful” alternative that pro-lifers promote.

323 lanaty  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 5:10:54pm

re: #321 prononymous

Good points.

It isn’t just the quality of life of the woman that is affected by being forced to have a baby they don’t want or can’t support. It goes directly to the quality of life of the subsequent child as well.

You’re absolutely right. Unwanted and forgotten children are nothing to celebrate.

324 lanaty  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 5:13:06pm

re: #230 changomo

Sergey, Ludwig asked me why I thought abortion was okay in the first trimester. I told him because I believe in Judaism. Ludwig responded that there is nothing in Judaism that says it’s okay to have an abortion in the first trimester and like you, challenged my understanding of Jewish Law.

I agree, I am no super scholar, - but Talmud states in a passage on priestly rules that the fetus “is considered to be mere water” until its 40th day…

I posted the link from Wiki to that. Now whether you believe I’m serious about Judaism or not, I don’t think I can (nor will I try to convince you) but I hope this clarifies the post.

Thanks

I am not a Talmud/Torah scholar either, but I was under the impression that Judaism requires abortion in the case where a mother’s life is in danger.

You could technically make the argument that a mother’s life is always in danger during pregnancy. It’s not a trivial condition.

325 Querent  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 7:38:05pm

re: #192 Fozzie Bear


This goes so far beyond simple disagreement. This is depraved and sick. This is evil.

Moral Derpitude!

326 Bubblehead II  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 7:54:49pm

Lizards, I know I am chiming in late on this thread, but after reading 3/4 of it, I haven’t seen this very relevant question asked.

If they (The Parents) wanted to terminate (abort) the pregnancy because they knew in advance the Child would not survive, why the hell didn’t they just go across State line(s) into a State that would allow such a procedure?

Yes, the law is barbaric. Yes, those who support it are knuckle dragging neanderthals.

But the point is, the Couple had a choice. Remain in Nebraska and carry the Child until birth and a certain death or go somewhere out of State and have the pregnancy terminated. Why did they do the former instead of the latter?

There is no Law that prevented them from doing this.

If I am wrong about not seeing this questioned asked, please point me to the post.

327 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 8:47:23pm

re: #326 Bubblehead II

Do we know the couple’s situational and financial means?

328 Bubblehead II  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 8:52:09pm

re: #327 WindUpBird

Unknown to me (as well as everyone else) at this time. But I will take the plunge that since they looked into it, they had the economic means to do it.

329 sagehen  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 9:00:33pm

re: #328 Bubblehead II

Unknown to me (as well as everyone else) at this time. But I will take the plunge that since they looked into it, they had the economic means to do it.

So they should travel someplace that’s too far to drive, but most airlines won’t allow women that far along to board… to a city where they don’t know anybody, and a doctor they find by referral but have never met, and check into a hotel, to go through something they know is going to be emotionally devastating but their families and close friends aren’t going to be able to visit and bring a casserole…

330 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 9:03:01pm

re: #326 Bubblehead II

Lizards, I know I am chiming in late on this thread, but after reading 3/4 of it, I haven’t seen this very relevant question asked.

If they (The Parents) wanted to terminate (abort) the pregnancy because they knew in advance the Child would not survive, why the hell didn’t they just go across State line(s) into a State that would allow such a procedure?

Yes, the law is barbaric. Yes, those who support it are knuckle dragging neanderthals.

But the point is, the Couple had a choice. Remain in Nebraska and carry the Child until birth and a certain death or go somewhere out of State and have the pregnancy terminated. Why did they do the former instead of the latter?

There is no Law that prevented them from doing this.

If I am wrong about not seeing this questioned asked, please point me to the post.

Briefly, I do not know their financial situation. However, my understanding is that the woman’s water broke at 22 weeks, and she gave birth ten days later. She may not have been able to travel, and I do not think that it’s the easiest thing in the world, even if you have unlimited money, to get to a brand-new hospital or clinic in a different state, to get a mid-second-trimester abortion for a woman already going into labor.

Assuming they didn’t have unlimited money, but instead had normal health coverage, it may have simply been out of the question.

On a more general note, I really don’t like the idea that people need to cross state lines to get adequate health care.

331 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 9:05:01pm

re: #328 Bubblehead II

Unknown to me (as well as everyone else) at this time. But I will take the plunge that since they looked into it, they had the economic means to do it.

Did they look into it? Didn’t see that in the article.

332 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 9:06:39pm

re: #328 Bubblehead II

Unknown to me (as well as everyone else) at this time. But I will take the plunge that since they looked into it, they had the economic means to do it.

I know people with advanced college degrees who are living hand to mouth, so don’t be so certain of that

333 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 9:07:25pm

re: #330 SanFranciscoZionist

Briefly, I do not know their financial situation. However, my understanding is that the woman’s water broke at 22 weeks, and she gave birth ten days later. She may not have been able to travel, and I do not think that it’s the easiest thing in the world, even if you have unlimited money, to get to a brand-new hospital or clinic in a different state, to get a mid-second-trimester abortion for a woman already going into labor.

if you have bad credit and no money, it is impossible

334 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 9:08:59pm

re: #329 sagehen

So they should travel someplace that’s too far to drive, but most airlines won’t allow women that far along to board… to a city where they don’t know anybody, and a doctor they find by referral but have never met, and check into a hotel, to go through something they know is going to be emotionally devastating but their families and close friends aren’t going to be able to visit and bring a casserole…

Ask anyone here, quick! what are the first steps to getting an abortion in another state in a matter of days, with no budget?

I have no idea!

335 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 9:24:34pm

re: #334 WindUpBird

Ask anyone here, quick! what are the first steps to getting an abortion in another state in a matter of days, with no budget?

I have no idea!

Assuming I was able to travel, I’d get Greyhound or a driving friend to take me to Nevada or Oregon, and call ahead to Planned Parenthood.

If I wasn’t, I’d be screwed, and if PP said they weren’t equipped to do later term, which they probably wouldn’t be, I’d also be screwed. Maybe just show up at Tahoe General Hospital and scream “HEELLLLLLPPPP!!”

336 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 9:30:07pm

re: #335 SanFranciscoZionist

Assuming I was able to travel, I’d get Greyhound or a driving friend to take me to Nevada or Oregon, and call ahead to Planned Parenthood.

If I wasn’t, I’d be screwed, and if PP said they weren’t equipped to do later term, which they probably wouldn’t be, I’d also be screwed. Maybe just show up at Tahoe General Hospital and scream “HEELLLPPP!!”

I’m just speculating here but there could have been an issue with even finding a place in the state next door, like you suggest, that was capable and willing to deal with this specific case. Contrary to a lot of anti-abortion blabbing getting a later term abortion can be quite difficult. A lot of abortion clinics don’t do them.

337 sagehen  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 9:31:04pm

re: #335 SanFranciscoZionist

Assuming I was able to travel, I’d get Greyhound or a driving friend to take me to Nevada or Oregon, and call ahead to Planned Parenthood.

If I wasn’t, I’d be screwed, and if PP said they weren’t equipped to do later term, which they probably wouldn’t be, I’d also be screwed. Maybe just show up at Tahoe General Hospital and scream “HEELLLPPP!!”

Kansas is much closer to Nebraska, didn’t there used be a place there? oh yeah, I remember now why that option won’t work…

338 Lidane  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 9:55:19pm

re: #326 Bubblehead II

If they (The Parents) wanted to terminate (abort) the pregnancy because they knew in advance the Child would not survive, why the hell didn’t they just go across State line(s) into a State that would allow such a procedure?

For that matter, why not go to Mexico and find some quack to do it? I mean, it’s just so simple and affordable to travel to get an abortion, especially when you’re that far along in a pregnancy.

///

339 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 8, 2011 11:36:42pm

re: #230 changomo

Ludwig responded that there is nothing in Judaism that says it’s okay to have an abortion in the first trimester and like you, challenged my understanding of Jewish Law.

I said no such thing. That is a strange lie. In fact what I said was that the baby does not count as a full fledged baby until it is born.

I agree, I am no super scholar

Clearly.

but Talmud states in a passage on priestly rules that the fetus “is considered to be mere water” until its 40th day…

It is more complicated then that. It is at that point the Tradition ays the embryo gets a level of ensoulment.

I posted the link from Wiki to that.

Read the actual gemarra.

340 boxhead  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:19:25am

Aside from the obvious disgust of this law, one would hope that the backlash from voters will be extremely severe.

DAMN…. I am at a loss for words…. This assault on the Rights of women is sickening… arrrrr… I cannot believe this…
(I wrote and deleted far too many responses in order to be correct as far as the rules here request…)

but DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

341 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:48:34am

re: #208 changomo

that’s absolutely true, the same way that it’s impossible to say definitively there is a right or wrong unless their some macro structure beyond secular humanism.

You could have just said “I don’t know a single thing about secular humanism”, rather than proving it.

342 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:18:04am

re: #241 changomo

I have no clue who “gordon” but you guys can scan my previous posts in past threads and make your own conclusions if I’m trying to troll or not, a sock puppet, or some Charles stalker that some how was able to get past all the defenses all this time…

I took you up on the invitation to scan your previous posts. My conclusion is that you are relentlessly annoying, and not very good at intellectual discussions. And possibly not entirely truthful. You don’t remember Gordon, yet you make this claim:

I’ve been following LGF now for nearly 8 years and have found it a source of enjoyment.

The date of that comment is 9/01/2010. You would have known of Gordon had you been “following” that long. And don’t tell me you only read the front page posts. You also show a relentless interest in exactly what Charles might be thinking. Kinda creepy, that is. That doesn’t make you an official stalker, necessarily, but I can see how someone would get that idea.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 68 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
4 days ago
Views: 167 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1