Wisconsin Republicans Ram Through Union-Busting Bill

The GOP’s war on workers’ rights takes a nasty turn
Politics • Views: 34,093

Wisconsin Republicans have passed the union-busting sections of Gov. Scott Walker’s “budget repair” bill, by stripping out all the sections related to fiscal matters that required a quorum of Democrats: Wisconsin Senate passes public-sector union ban.

This isn’t over; Democrats are outraged over this surprise strong-arm maneuver, and there’s going to be a fight.

Whatever the outcome, this certainly does expose the Republican Party’s and Scott Walker’s true agenda. It was never about the budget. Very clearly, the real intent of this bill was to destroy the political power of public unions, from the start.

When the chips were down, the Republican Party sacrificed the budget to attack schoolteachers.

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1175 comments
1 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:15:48pm

The #wiunion feed is going OFF.

2 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:16:04pm

Can we stop pretending that any of this was ever about fiscal matters now?

3 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:16:21pm

What a Pyrrhic victory for WI republicans. They got what they wanted, but they tainted their brand for cheeseheads. The public doesn't support what they are doing. Passing the law in this way only reaffirms the perception that they are doing this out of political spite rather than for any budgetary concerns.

They got at least one of the things they wanted. But it probably will only last until they lose their majority - the next election, or sooner. I hope the democratic senators stay away and deny republicans their other goal - no-bid sales of Wisconsin public property.

4 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:16:47pm

They won.

5 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:17:56pm

bendimiero

Once the GOP is done destroying unions and defunding Planned Parenthood, NPR, and PBS, then they can focus first on jobs.

6 albusteve  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:18:00pm

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

They won.

now it will go off to the courts

7 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:18:04pm

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

They won.

The battle.

Lets see if they can hold the territory they just claimed.

8 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:18:11pm

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

They won.

There was no way they couldn't win. Now they've won so ugly that they'll lose.

9 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:18:26pm

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

They won.

King Pyrrhus won also.

10 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:19:46pm

State Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller (D) who has been in Illinois, released this statement:

"In thirty minutes, 18 State Senators undid fifty years of civil rights in Wisconsin.

"Their disrespect for the people of Wisconsin and their rights is an outrage that will never be forgotten.

"Tonight, 18 Senate Republicans conspired to take government away from the people.

"Tomorrow we will join the people of Wisconsin in taking back their government."

That "take back the government" sentiment, finally makes sense.

Wow.

11 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:19:56pm

re: #9 prononymous

King Pyrrhus won also.

Cornwallis' epitaph is a paraphrase of Caesar: "He defeated the Americans with great slaughter".

12 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:20:22pm

re: #5 Stanley Sea

bendimiero

Once the GOP is done destroying unions and defunding Planned Parenthood, NPR, and PBS, then they can focus first on jobs.

Nah. Focusing first on jobs can wait until they're done defending DOMA in court and trying to impeach Obama for not invading Libya. =P

13 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:21:18pm

Their moral cowardice is astonishing. This war has only just begun.

14 avanti  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:21:54pm

They violated their own rules on public hearing in the process. 24 hours, unless it's a "emergency" I guess union busting is a emergency to the GOP. The shit will hit the fan over this IMHO.

15 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:22:52pm

So can liberals start using the term "rammed it down our throats"?

16 thatthatisis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:23:10pm

It's naked class warfare: come into office with a surplus, pass a huge tax break for the rich, then - because there is now a budget shortfall - accuse the $50,000 per year workers of greed and selfishness. And on that pretext, do away with public unions.

This is, and always has been, about class warfare. The SCOTUS Citizens United opinion gives corporations unlimited power to affect elections; and this will ensure the Wisconsin unions and their middle class members will have none.

17 researchok  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:23:22pm

Legislation by political stunt.

No one an say they didn't see that coming.

18 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:23:24pm

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

They won.

If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.....

19 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:23:30pm

ThePlumLineGS

RT @EricKleefeld I congratulate Gov.-elect Russ Feingold, (D-WI), on his victory in the 2012 recall.

20 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:23:42pm

re: #15 moderatelyradicalliberal

So can liberals start using the term "rammed it down our throats"?

Can conservatives start using the term "obstructionist democrats?"

21 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:24:06pm

re: #18 jamesfirecat

If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...

Poof! You're making me laugh...

22 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:24:20pm

There is also a growning boycott movement in Wisconsin.

Boycott of businesses that supported Walker gains steam on Facebook

[Link: host.madison.com...]

It won't make much impact to the Koch family, but it will make those with smaller businesses decide which side they're willing to stand on.

23 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:24:21pm

Give the WI TP/GOP some credit. When they're bought, they stay bought.

24 SpaceJesus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:24:38pm

get your recalls ready

25 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:24:40pm

re: #17 researchok

Legislation by political stunt.

No one an say they didn't see that coming.

Calling this a political stunt is an insult to political stunts....

26 researchok  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:25:04pm

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

Can conservatives start using the term "obstructionist democrats?"

This was inevitable and political grandstanding will only escalate.

27 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:25:14pm

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

Can conservatives start using the term "obstructionist democrats?"

Too many syllables.

28 Opal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:25:17pm

Just got the telephone call from my brother. He and my niece are driving to Madison tomorrow in support of my niece (teacher in Michigan) and of my brother's two nephews (by marriage) both of whom are teachers in Wisconsin. I think that there will be a big protest.

29 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:25:20pm

re: #18 jamesfirecat

If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...

It would probably be better to use a quote from real life, not fiction.

History is real. Fiction is whatever the writer wanted it to be.

Surely there are some really great union quotes out there from real life.

30 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:25:20pm

re: #19 Stanley Sea

ThePlumLineGS

RT @EricKleefeld I congratulate Gov.-elect Russ Feingold, (D-WI), on his victory in the 2012 recall.

Your lips to God's ear. Amen.

31 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:25:42pm

Well, remember this when you want to "play nice" Democrats. Next time don't fuck around and play hard ball just like the Republicans do. Just like they did with the public option.

32 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:26:03pm

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

Can conservatives start using the term "obstructionist democrats?"

I think Liberals may retort -
"demagogic, union busting, inhumane, class warfare mongering GOP pond scum"

33 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:26:28pm

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

Can conservatives start using the term "obstructionist democrats?"

Go ahead. Obstructing something that is hugely unpopular isn't much of a dig.

34 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:26:34pm

re: #32 wozzablog

I think Liberals may retort -
"demagogic, union busting, inhumane, class warfare mongering GOP pond scum"

That sort of language would be par for the course.

35 researchok  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:26:41pm

re: #25 jamesfirecat

Calling this a political stunt is an insult to political stunts...

James, I wish that were so.

Manipulating the rules and the game is the new game in town.

Governance is now a secondary proposition.

36 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:27:03pm

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

That sort of language would be par for the course.

Nah. It was still too polite.

37 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:27:30pm

re: #36 wozzablog

Nah. It was still too polite.

You just made my point..., thanks.

38 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:28:16pm

re: #28 Opal

Just got the telephone call from my brother. He and my niece are driving to Madison tomorrow in support of my niece (teacher in Michigan) and of my brother's two nephews (by marriage) both of whom are teachers in Wisconsin. I think that there will be a big protest.

Spring break road trip - my teacher housemate is gathering folks up.

39 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:28:30pm

Why are the GOP so insistent on making sure President Obama carries Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Pennsylvania and basically the entire Northeast and upper Midwest....AGAIN!?!

Seriously, these are angry middle class white people who will probably never vote GOP again as long as they live. Not even the GOP leaning white middle class cops and firefighters. The GOP is doing with these voters what they did to black, gays, Hispanics, and non-Christians: turning most of them into lifelong Democrats whether the Democrats deserve it or not.

40 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:28:36pm

re: #29 EmmmieG

It would probably be better to use a quote from real life, not fiction.

History is real. Fiction is whatever the writer wanted it to be.

Surely there are some really great union quotes out there from real life.

In our hands is placed a power greater than their hoarded gold,
Greater than the might of armies, magnified a thousand-fold.
We can bring to birth a new world from the ashes of the old
For the union makes us strong.


This quote would be much less creepy to me if I hadn't heard it for the first time in Bioshock 2....

41 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:29:07pm

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

You just made my point..., thanks.

Quit thread jacking Walter.

42 mr.fusion  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:30:07pm

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

They won.

They did, and it sucks....

But at what cost? How many cycles before another Republican is the Governor of Wisconsin? How fired up are the Democrats/unions going to be in Wisconsin and across the nation in 2012?

I do feel for the public workers of Wisconsin, I really do and if I was in WI I would be standing side by side with them......

But I can pretty much guarantee that nowhere near the majority of those protesting went out to vote....only a sliver of those made phone calls, knocked on doors, and spoke with their friends and family about voting.....I hope this wakes up the middle class.


Let us never forget that government is ourselves and not an alien power over us. The ultimate rulers of our democracy are not a President and senators and congressmen and government officials, but the voters of this country.
43 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:30:29pm

re: #41 Stanley Sea

Quit thread jacking Walter.

Are you the new hall monitor?

44 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:30:56pm

And conservatives who screamed "TYRANNY!" and "Ramming it down our throats!" when Democrats in the US Senate used their supermajority to pass stuff will have no trouble squaring that with supporting this underhanded, genuine 'ram it through' move. Because they're that intellectually dishonest.

45 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:31:03pm

re: #41 Stanley Sea

Quit thread jacking Walter.

Thread jacking? You want thread jacking?

*Goes looking for the picture of the piglet in boots*

46 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:31:11pm

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

Can conservatives start using the term "obstructionist democrats?"

Sure, why not? This role reversal might be fun. Except of course we are obstructing things that are truly harmful and awful for middle and working class Americans.

47 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:32:06pm

re: #46 moderatelyradicalliberal

Sure, why not? This role reversal might be fun. Except of course we are obstructing things that are truly harmful and awful for middle and working class Americans.

Oh... I get it... (wink... wink... snicker... snicker).

48 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:32:15pm

re: #44 Merryweather

And conservatives who screamed "TYRANNY!" and "Ramming it down our throats!" when Democrats in the US Senate used their supermajority to pass stuff will have no trouble squaring that with supporting this underhanded, genuine 'ram it through' move. Because they're that intellectually dishonest.

"It's the will of the people!"

///

49 rwmofo  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:32:17pm

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?

50 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:32:32pm

re: #39 moderatelyradicalliberal

Why are the GOP so insistent on making sure President Obama carries Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Pennsylvania and basically the entire Northeast and upper Midwest...AGAIN!?!

Seriously, these are angry middle class white people who will probably never vote GOP again as long as they live. Not even the GOP leaning white middle class cops and firefighters. The GOP is doing with these voters what they did to black, gays, Hispanics, and non-Christians: turning most of them into lifelong Democrats whether the Democrats deserve it or not.

I think you're probably right. This isn't popular with the voters of Wisconsin and if they think it's important enough they'll vote Dem in the next election. I think this union busting bill is just temporary.

51 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:33:04pm

re: #49 rwmofo

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?

I don't know how many of us speak for the "democrat" party............

52 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:33:31pm

The GOP doesn't care about the working man. Never did.

53 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:33:38pm

re: #49 rwmofo

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?

Why don't you read the story. Catch up.


I bet tradewind will be here in a minute to join you.

54 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:33:46pm

re: #49 rwmofo

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?

Seeing as there's no such thing as the 'Democrat Party', I'm not surprised none showed up.

55 Opal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:33:51pm

re: #39 moderatelyradicalliberal

"Why are the GOP so insistent on making sure President Obama carries Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Pennsylvania and basically the entire Northeast and upper Midwest...AGAIN!?!"

Yup...my brother is driving from Grand Rapids, MI to Madison. Union workers don't like having their rights crushed.

This is a trick to get union workers to do something naughty and overreact. This is a trick to get Obama to stand with those who overreact. Union workers DO know that they need to control themselves. They also know that is about the 2012 elections. They think that if unions can be busted all over the country, that Republicans will win by large majorities all over the country. The unions should remain calm and protest calmly in very large numbers.

56 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:33:56pm

re: #53 Stanley Sea

Why don't you read the story. Catch up.

I bet tradewind will be here in a minute to join you.

I'll email her to make sure.

57 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:34:14pm

re: #49 rwmofo

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?

Why don't you ask the republic party?

58 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:34:22pm

re: #49 rwmofo

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?

Well, the fact that a "democrat" party doesn't exist might have something to do with it.

59 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:34:33pm

re: #49 rwmofo

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?

The Democrats were out of the state and thus couldn't vote.

Its sorta kinda been in the news a lot, even on this site.

Were you not paying attention?

60 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:34:45pm

Personally, I'm surprised it took this long for the Wisconsin GOP to make this move. Perhaps they decided that they're losing the PR battle, so best to just get it over and done with. Pick up the pieces tomorrow and hope to assemble them into something resembling a decent excuse.

61 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:35:08pm

re: #52 Gus 802

The GOP doesn't care about the working man. Never did.

Scott Walker doesn't care about union people!

62 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:35:47pm

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

That sort of language would be par for the course.

And well deserved. This is an attempt to make a one party state...and a GOP legislator admitted as much today when he said the bill was designed to cripple Dem fund raising and deny votes to the other party.

So think about that, Walter. One party is using the law and the power of the state to keep themselves in permanent power and keep other parties crippled.

We used to have a few words to describe that sort of situation in other countries.

63 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:35:48pm

re: #15 moderatelyradicalliberal

So can liberals start using the term "rammed it down our throats"?


No. This is a bend over, no lube, no reacharound. Much worse than a throat-jamming.

64 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:36:05pm

re: #61 jamesfirecat

Scott Walker doesn't care about union people!

Champagne and caviar with the Koch brothers tonight.

So who are the real Czars now?

65 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:36:06pm

re: #60 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Personally, I'm surprised it took this long for the Wisconsin GOP to make this move. Perhaps they decided that they're losing the PR battle, so best to just get it over and done with. Pick up the pieces tomorrow and hope to assemble them into something resembling a decent excuse.

JOBS!

66 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:36:27pm

re: #59 jamesfirecat

The Democrats were out of the state and thus couldn't vote.

Its sorta kinda been in the news a lot, even on this site.

Were you not paying attention?

Yeah, he was. This is just obvious troll is trolling again.

67 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:36:43pm

re: #60 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Personally, I'm surprised it took this long for the Wisconsin GOP to make this move. Perhaps they decided that they're losing the PR battle, so best to just get it over and done with. Pick up the pieces tomorrow and hope to assemble them into something resembling a decent excuse.

They were being humiliated and wanted to declare victory in the face of a tremendous political backlash. Nothing more.

The damage control will have to be absolutely spectacular.

68 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:36:46pm

re: #60 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Personally, I'm surprised it took this long for the Wisconsin GOP to make this move. Perhaps they decided that they're losing the PR battle, so best to just get it over and done with. Pick up the pieces tomorrow and hope to assemble them into something resembling a decent excuse.

This was going to be a disaster for Walker either way. Stick to his guns and he taints his brand. Blink and he can forget about his base supporting presidential run.

69 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:36:48pm

re: #65 Stanley Sea

JOBS!

My guess is tomorrow, they'll say "Okay, the impasse is out of the way, now any Democrat that doesn't come back and help us pass this budget is putting the state's finances in danger!"

70 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:36:54pm

The GOP can't even get behind any Wall Street reform yet they're quick to attack working people, women, Muslims, gays, and the poor.

Vote Democrat in 2012.

71 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:37:07pm

re: #64 Gus 802

Champagne and caviar with the Koch brothers tonight.

So who are the real Czars now?

oligarhy?

72 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:37:22pm

I wonder if any of the GOP senators even considered the irony that they were doing this on Ash Wednesday?

73 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:37:36pm

re: #39 moderatelyradicalliberal

Why are the GOP so insistent on making sure President Obama carries Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Pennsylvania and basically the entire Northeast and upper Midwest...AGAIN!?!

Seriously, these are angry middle class white people who will probably never vote GOP again as long as they live. Not even the GOP leaning white middle class cops and firefighters. The GOP is doing with these voters what they did to black, gays, Hispanics, and non-Christians: turning most of them into lifelong Democrats whether the Democrats deserve it or not.

They have awakened a sleeping giant.

74 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:37:50pm

re: #70 Gus 802

The GOP can't even get behind any Wall Street reform yet they're quick to attack working people, women, Muslims, gays, and the poor.

Vote Democrat in 2012.

The GOP are against the wall street reform that wall street is proposing because Obama may eventually get behind it.

It's fucking-pathetic.

75 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:37:55pm

re: #49 rwmofo

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?

Are you Hannitized™?

76 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:38:00pm

re: #73 sagehen

They have awakened a sleeping giant.

Strike!

77 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:38:05pm

re: #49 rwmofo

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?

What the fuck is a democrat party?

Is that anything like the Grizzled Old Pervert Party? We can all play that little game.

78 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:38:16pm

re: #72 wlewisiii

I wonder if any of the GOP senators even considered the irony that they were doing this on Ash Wednesday?

Too busy repairing their sackcloths.

79 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:38:18pm

TPM Reader SG checks in from Wisconsin:

It's not just the budget bill needs a quorum -- the big issue is that *any* bill with fiscal implications is supposed to have a quorum in the Wisconsin state Senate. So there are two choices here:
1. Collective bargaining has fiscal implications, and so the bill will be blocked in the courts and ruled unconstitutional.

2. Collective bargaining DOES NOT have direct fiscal implications, and Gov. Walker has been lying this entire time by making the case that it's fiscally necessary.

So either the state R's just passed an illegal bill, or Walker has been lying this entire time and really is just interested in union-busting.

80 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:38:25pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

I think you're probably right. This isn't popular with the voters of Wisconsin and if they think it's important enough they'll vote Dem in the next election. I think this union busting bill is just temporary.

All I'm saying is I haven't seen this many not young, not far left white people pissed off at the GOP in a long time and we are still a country in which the white middle and working class decides elections. I think the GOP has screwed the pooch. So far they have manage to only piss off people who weren't voting or weren't ever going to vote for them anyway. These people may not be their base, but the GOP got 40% of all union votes in the last couple of election cycles because those voters didn't believe that the GOP would ever come after them. A shift down to just getting 30-25% would be devastating and it's highly plausible after this.

81 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:38:27pm

re: #74 wozzablog

The GOP are against the wall street reform that wall street is proposing because Obama may eventually get behind it.

It's fucking-pathetic.

Poo flinging on a national scale! whee!

82 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:38:52pm

re: #73 sagehen

They have awakened a sleeping giant.

TEAMSTER SMASH PUNY GOVERNOR!

83 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:38:58pm

re: #73 sagehen

They have awakened a sleeping giant.

Hope so.

Youtube Video
84 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:38:58pm

re: #70 Gus 802

The GOP can't even get behind any Wall Street reform yet they're quick to attack working people, women, Muslims, gays, and the poor.

Vote Democrat in 2012.

Their attacks are easy to understand, they're trying to cripple the Democratic Party as an opposition to them in future elections. Union funding, college voters, etc, etc. They know they can't win 2012 without trickery, so they're throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the DNC's voter base.

85 jc717  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:38:59pm

Elections have consequences. Hopefully people will start to see that today's GOP and Dems really are different and the choice is pretty stark and it matters.
It's not a matter of voting for the lesser evil, it's like a choice between Cthulhu and Mr. Rogers.

86 Opal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:39:17pm

re: #73 sagehen

"They have awakened a sleeping giant."

I hope you're right.

87 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:39:24pm

Will this finally kill off the 'both parties are the same/just as bad' meme?

Seeing as the sky-high mound of evidence saying NO hasn't worked so far, my hopes are not high.

88 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:40:04pm

re: #49 rwmofo

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?


Maybe they didn't show because there is no such party. In this country we have a Democratic Party, a Republican Party and a few other minor parties.

89 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:40:25pm

re: #84 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Their attacks are easy to understand, they're trying to cripple the Democratic Party as an opposition to them in future elections. Union funding, college voters, etc, etc. They know they can't win 2012 without trickery, so they're throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the DNC's voter base.

I can't wait to hear how Jan Brewer's Army turns out!

90 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:41:40pm

re: #62 celticdragon

And well deserved. This is an attempt to make a one party state...and a GOP legislator admitted as much today when he said the bill was designed to cripple Dem fund raising and deny votes to the other party.

So think about that, Walter. One party is using the law and the power of the state to keep themselves in permanent power and keep other parties crippled.

We used to have a few words to describe that sort of situation in other countries.

We still have those words, but the corporate media would prefer not to say them out loud about us. Kind of like torture that way.

91 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:41:50pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

I think you're probably right. This isn't popular with the voters of Wisconsin and if they think it's important enough they'll vote Dem in the next election. I think this union busting bill is just temporary.

I think there will a general strike that shuts down parts of the state, imo.

I would walk out of class tomorrow if I were teaching there. They want to hand out fucking tax breaks to their buddies and then scream that the teachers need to get kicked in the ass?

Fuck 'em. The National Guard can take over teaching English Lit and Earth Science.

92 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:42:24pm

re: #91 celticdragon

I think there will a general strike that shuts down parts of the state, imo.

I would walk out of class tomorrow if I were teaching there. They want to hand out fucking tax breaks to their buddies and then scream that the teachers need to get kicked in the ass?

Fuck 'em. The National Guard can take over teaching English Lit and Earth Science.

Fuckin' A!

93 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:42:27pm

re: #84 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Their attacks are easy to understand, they're trying to cripple the Democratic Party as an opposition to them in future elections. Union funding, college voters, etc, etc. They know they can't win 2012 without trickery, so they're throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the DNC's voter base.

There is no way they expected a Marxist Kenyan to still have a positive poll rating at this point - and they have no named candidate who beats him yet.

They are bricking it and will burn what they can not loot.

94 moose9t9  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:42:47pm

Can we also stop pretending the average voter isn't an idiot. I'm sorry if I offend some sensibilities here but you'd think that after we (collectively) elect the 3rd, 4th or 5th idiot into office we would realize this.

Every cycle someone is elected that couldn't be elected deputy hallway monitor in a 2 child home-school and yet it keeps happening. My pessimism tells me that public interest/intensity on this will wane the Walker et all will win.

So there we have it. You get what you vote for.

Again sorry. Getting really tired of watching this happen time after time.

95 Big Joe  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:43:16pm

re: #15 moderatelyradicalliberal

So can liberals start using the term "rammed it down our throats"?

We're not closeted gays, we're out.

96 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:43:31pm

re: #85 jc717

Elections have consequences. Hopefully people will start to see that today's GOP and Dems really are different and the choice is pretty stark and it matters.
It's not a matter of voting for the lesser evil, it's like a choice between Cthulhu and Mr. Rogers.

This sort of thing will also bring all but the left-most Democats back home--those who were getting sick of Iraq, Gitmo, and the Wall-Street cabinet posts.

97 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:43:59pm

re: #73 sagehen

They have awakened a sleeping giant.

And as soon as they are awake... they will all move to Illinois. LOL.

98 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:44:03pm

How history will remember Gov. Scott Walker:

Image: stupidscottwalker.jpg

Read the accompanying rant here.

99 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:45:28pm

re: #94 moose9t9

Can we also stop pretending the average voter isn't an idiot. I'm sorry if I offend some sensibilities here but you'd think that after we (collectively) elect the 3rd, 4th or 5th idiot into office we would realize this.

Every cycle someone is elected that couldn't be elected deputy hallway monitor in a 2 child home-school and yet it keeps happening. My pessimism tells me that public interest/intensity on this will wane the Walker et all will win.

So there we have it. You get what you vote for.

Again sorry. Getting really tired of watching this happen time after time.

I regret that I have but one upding to give.

Yeah, I can't tell you how angry I am in particular with the progressives who stayed at home after pissing and moaning about how Dems didn't deserve their vote because they didn't get their personalized sparkly pony.

ELECTIONS MATTER.

100 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:45:45pm

re: #97 Walter L. Newton

And as soon as they are awake... they will all move to Illinois. LOL.

Sure, make DF's day why don't you........

101 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:45:52pm

since collective bargaining is as of this bill no longer a 'budget repair' issue, uh, what will the new justification be for banning it?

102 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:46:19pm

RT @danpotacke

I can't make a baked potato in the time that it took to strip away rights. #wiunion

103 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:46:50pm

re: #98 wrenchwench

How history will remember Gov. Scott Walker:

Image: stupidscottwalker.jpg

Read the accompanying rant here.

Too photogenic I think something more like this will be how history remembers him.

104 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:47:06pm

re: #101 engineer dog

since collective bargaining is as of this bill no longer a 'budget repair' issue, uh, what will the new justification be for banning it?

nee-ner.

105 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:47:40pm

re: #98 wrenchwench

How history will remember Gov. Scott Walker:

Image: stupidscottwalker.jpg

Read the accompanying rant here.

I was just about to post that mugshot. Walker's a fucking mutant.

106 Big Joe  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:48:02pm

It sucks to work for a living and come home to tons of good threads full of awesome posts, like happened to me today. I tried to read as many as I could and still skipped 85%. I've finally caught up to real time . It took me 90 minutes. You guys are awesome.

107 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:48:08pm

Hearing on Twitter a general strike is being discussed.

108 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:48:26pm

SHIT! Just heard through the grapevine that the Dem Senators are rushing back to Madison to get their voices heard. Fuckers are heading right into a trap. The Republicans could just as easily drop this separate bill, once at least one Democrat is in hand, and have their quorum to pass the full budget.

Keep a close watch, because as dumb as he may seem, Walker may have just pulled the rug out from under the Wisconsin DNC.

109 Tigger2  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:49:02pm

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

They won.

They sure did Walter.

"We must close union offices. Confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike!" -Adolf Hitler 5/2/1933

110 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:49:45pm

re: #108 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

SHIT! Just heard through the grapevine that the Dem Senators are rushing back to Madison to get their voices heard. Fuckers are heading right into a trap. The Republicans could just as easily drop this separate bill, once at least one Democrat is in hand, and have their quorum to pass the full budget.

Keep a close watch, because as dumb as he may seem, Walker may have just pulled the rug out from under the Wisconsin DNC.

That wouldn't surprise me. But if the rumours of a general strike being discussed come even halfway to realisation all bets one everything are off.

111 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:50:26pm

re: #108 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

SHIT! Just heard through the grapevine that the Dem Senators are rushing back to Madison to get their voices heard. Fuckers are heading right into a trap. The Republicans could just as easily drop this separate bill, once at least one Democrat is in hand, and have their quorum to pass the full budget.

Keep a close watch, because as dumb as he may seem, Walker may have just pulled the rug out from under the Wisconsin DNC.

I'm seeing reports on Twitter that one of the Dem Senators is saying they're NOT coming back tomorrow, so I don't think we need to worry about that just yet.

112 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:51:34pm

News3David David Douglas

Press room shaking as ppl bang on doors to building one floor down.

zschultz15 zac schultz
by bluecheddar1

[Link: twitgoo.com...] singing solidarity forever.#wiunion

Check out the photo.

114 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:52:28pm

re: #49 rwmofo

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?


Maybe they didn't show because there is no such party. In this country we have a Democratic Party, a Republican Party and a few other minor parties.
re: #91 celticdragon

I think there will a general strike that shuts down parts of the state, imo.

I would walk out of class tomorrow if I were teaching there. They want to hand out fucking tax breaks to their buddies and then scream that the teachers need to get kicked in the ass?

Fuck 'em. The National Guard can take over teaching English Lit and Earth Science.

Speaking of teachers, I know several, some of them only teaching for a few years and they are all worried about whether or not teaching will become such an unattractive profession that America won't have enough teachers in the near future. Can you imagine being a teaching student right now? We are in a time in which we need to make teaching as attractive a profession as we can and not only are we taking away incentives to teach, but we are treating and talking about them like a hated minority group. Who in their right mind would want to deal with that kind of disrespect and hostility if they could avoid it?

115 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:52:53pm

You've got to hand it to Walker though. He's managed to be a worse governor than Sarah Palin in a fraction of the time, and she was governor for only half a term.

116 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:53:30pm

Election 2012

The GOP - making you watch your child die in your arms and an end to the right of free association.

The Democrats - higher taxes for those earning over $250,000 and generally not wanting the planet to be consumed in a ball of human constructed fire.

117 mr.fusion  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:53:31pm

re: #91 celticdragon

I think there will a general strike that shuts down parts of the state, imo.

I would walk out of class tomorrow if I were teaching there. They want to hand out fucking tax breaks to their buddies and then scream that the teachers need to get kicked in the ass?

Fuck 'em. The National Guard can take over teaching English Lit and Earth Science.

I totally disagree with this.....

I mean, I'm as liberal as I come and I'm infuriated with what took place tonight, but there's a chance to correct this in 4 years....and it sucks that this battle is lost. But that energy needs to be channeled into working within the system. Donate money to every Dem in WI....call their campaign offices and ask if you can make phone calls.....but don't walk off the job. Don't punish the citizens that depend on the public union members to educate their kids, protect their homes, and maintain their cities

118 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:53:32pm

re: #73 sagehen

They have awakened a sleeping giant.

And filled him with a terrible resolve.

Yamamoto Isoruku knew what he was talking about.

The GOP and the Tea Party remind me of the Axis these days. "Effete liberal weaklings who won't fight."

We know how that turned out.

119 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:53:50pm

re: #114 moderatelyradicalliberal

Maybe they didn't show because there is no such party. In this country we have a Democratic Party, a Republican Party and a few other minor parties.
re: #91 celticdragon

Speaking of teachers, I know several, some of them only teaching for a few years and they are all worried about whether or not teaching will become such an unattractive profession that America won't have enough teachers in the near future. Can you imagine being a teaching student right now? We are in a time in which we need to make teaching as attractive a profession as we can and not only are we taking away incentives to teach, but we are treating and talking about them like a hated minority group. Who in their right mind would want to deal with that kind of disrespect and hostility if they could avoid it?

How fucked up is that?

120 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:54:22pm

I'll be honest with you though. The left has been sitting on their ass ever since Obama was sworn in. Stop being so passive. Get up and fight like you did before November of 2008.

121 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:54:34pm

What Wisconsin can look forward to....

122 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:55:27pm

plcorbett Patrick L. Corbett

Word is that Madison police refuse to assist clearing the #WI State Capitol of protesters tonight. MT @wicapaccess #WIunion #p2 #Mar09

123 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:55:29pm

re: #117 mr.fusion

I totally disagree with this...

I mean, I'm as liberal as I come and I'm infuriated with what took place tonight, but there's a chance to correct this in 4 years...and it sucks that this battle is lost. But that energy needs to be channeled into working within the system. Donate money to every Dem in WI...call their campaign offices and ask if you can make phone calls...but don't walk off the job. Don't punish the citizens that depend on the public union members to educate their kids, protect their homes, and maintain their cities

We saw what the system delivered. The system needs a wake up call.

124 Insanity  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:56:09pm

re: #111 Merryweather

I'm seeing reports on Twitter that one of the Dem Senators is saying they're NOT coming back tomorrow, so I don't think we need to worry about that just yet.

Whew. Thanks -- I hadn't heard that yet. That's good news.

I came here to post what TargetPractice (#108) said -- the Republicans might have passed this bill illegally as a ploy to get the Dems to return to fight it, and then they would have their quorum to pass a legal version. I hope the dems stay away and let the people fight this.

125 mikefromArlington  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:56:13pm

What scum.

He just stole food off the table of teachers to give to Koch.

Congratulations lazy Dem voters and those thinking they were teaching Obama a lesson by not voting.

The crazies are now in charge.

126 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:56:31pm

re: #117 mr.fusion

I totally disagree with this...

I mean, I'm as liberal as I come and I'm infuriated with what took place tonight, but there's a chance to correct this in 4 years...and it sucks that this battle is lost. But that energy needs to be channeled into working within the system. Donate money to every Dem in WI...call their campaign offices and ask if you can make phone calls...but don't walk off the job. Don't punish the citizens that depend on the public union members to educate their kids, protect their homes, and maintain their cities

If the citizens depend on those union members, maybe the governor and legislature shouldn't have kicked them in the ass.

127 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:56:41pm

re: #122 Stanley Sea

plcorbett Patrick L. Corbett

Word is that Madison police refuse to assist clearing the #WI State Capitol of protesters tonight. MT @wicapaccess #WIunion #p2 #Mar09

Look for the National Guard to show up soon. Mubarak...er, Walker will not allow his rule to continue being questioned by the peasants.

128 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:57:46pm

Has Walker just stimulated a joyous discharge from a Koch?

129 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:58:07pm

re: #127 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Look for the National Guard to show up soon. Mubarak...er, Walker will not allow his rule to continue being questioned by the peasants.

Reported at Balloon Juice from Twitter that police are refusing to clear away protesters.

130 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:58:12pm

re: #121 jamesfirecat

What Wisconsin can look forward to...

knitmomwi lisa

Singing 'solidarity forever' at King St entrance

131 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:58:44pm

re: #118 Romantic Heretic

And filled him with a terrible resolve.

Yamamoto Isoruku knew what he was talking about.

The GOP and the Tea Party remind me of the Axis these days. "Effete liberal weaklings who won't fight."

We know how that turned out.

I distinctly recall the story of one Japanese Admiral who said that if he was unleashed against the US he would win a string of victories, but if the war dragged on longer than that he feared for Japan...

Pearl Harbor was December 7th 1941

The Battle of Midway ended June 7th 1942.

Jan
Feb
Mar
April
May
June.


That was a man who knew his limits....

132 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:58:58pm

re: #94 moose9t9

Can we also stop pretending the average voter isn't an idiot.

To paraphrase Heinlein here, "They aren't stupid, just ignorant and prejudiced by their environment."

133 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 5:59:49pm

re: #94 moose9t9

Can we also stop pretending the average voter isn't an idiot. I'm sorry if I offend some sensibilities here but you'd think that after we (collectively) elect the 3rd, 4th or 5th idiot into office we would realize this.

Every cycle someone is elected that couldn't be elected deputy hallway monitor in a 2 child home-school and yet it keeps happening. My pessimism tells me that public interest/intensity on this will wane the Walker et all will win.

So there we have it. You get what you vote for.

Again sorry. Getting really tired of watching this happen time after time.

I'm having to fight these kinds of thoughts and feelings as well. And yes these states are getting exactly what they voted for. They were told not to give the GOP the keys and now they and all of the rest of us will have to deal with the consequences.

134 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:00:01pm

re: #126 sagehen

If the citizens depend on those union members, maybe the governor and legislature shouldn't have kicked them in the ass.

My worry is that Walker's going to look to capitalize on a general strike, playing it up as "proof" that unions need to be busted, because they hold too much power. Try to convince folks angry that their lives have been disrupted by the strike that this is why unions need to go.

135 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:00:20pm

re: #119 Stanley Sea

How fucked up is that?

Most teaching graduates never stick it out to retirement as it is (I'll ask my union thug daughter for confirmation).

136 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:00:39pm

re: #132 Romantic Heretic

To paraphrase Heinlein here, "They aren't stupid, just ignorant and prejudiced by their environment."

Oh, nice quote. And very true.

137 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:02:01pm

re: #131 jamesfirecat

I distinctly recall the story of one Japanese Admiral who said that if he was unleashed against the US he would win a string of victories, but if the war dragged on longer than that he feared for Japan...

Pearl Harbor was December 7th 1941

The Battle of Midway ended June 7th 1942.

Jan
Feb
Mar
April
May
June.

That was a man who knew his limits...

"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."

- Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto.

138 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:02:33pm

Right, come on people, time to focus on what's actually important here - Charlie Sheen's meltdown.

////

Sweet Jesus, the media sucks.

140 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:03:04pm

re: #135 Decatur Deb

Most teaching graduates never stick it out to retirement as it is (I'll ask my union thug daughter for confirmation).

Teaching will soon have the same turnover rate as the fast food industry. How could such an exceptional country have managed that?

141 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:03:08pm

Unplugging for the time being, lizards. I'm angry as hell right now and I need to do something else for a bit.

142 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:03:13pm

re: #113 celticdragon

I believe it

143 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:03:30pm

re: #139 Gus 802

Report: Major DC Lobby Firm Throwing Fundraiser For Wisconsin GOP Leaders

Corporatist scum.

144 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:04:15pm

re: #2 Lidane

Can we stop pretending that any of this was ever about fiscal matters now?

I don't see why not. Republicans just did.

145 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:04:40pm

re: #139 Gus 802

Report: Major DC Lobby Firm Throwing Fundraiser For Wisconsin GOP Leaders

Of course. And thanks to the CU decision they will have plenty of cash and the unions will have none.

Face it. This country is an Oligarchy that wants us all to be ignorant, docile serfs.

146 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:04:43pm

re: #140 moderatelyradicalliberal

Lots of big corporate contributors don't need a highly educated workforce.

147 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:04:58pm

OT, but Weigel tweet just now:

daveweigel daveweigel

MT @Ombudsman: #NPR Schiller said in the full two hour video he is a Republican, and was raised as a Republican. that didn't make it in

148 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:05:22pm

re: #141 celticdragon

Unplugging for the time being, lizards. I'm angry as hell right now and I need to do something else for a bit.

Understand. I think I need a drink.

149 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:06:06pm

re: #143 wozzablog

Corporatist scum.

This is not a democracy. It is only in that we have a right to vote but the majority of the time we vote for the highest bidders. Ergo, the primary representation is for corporate interests and the super rich.

150 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:07:08pm

I am so angry right now. I've been fuming since our illustrious governor announced all state education funds from the budget will be cut by almost 50% (PA.) Yet, ZERO increase on permits for Marcellus Shale Drilling. Honestly, I'm not only angry, but scared. My DH is a public school teacher "union thug" too...in the arts. He's our main source of income; although I have a M.S. in Physiology, I taught (non tenure) at Pitt for a long time, and now am mostly a freelance writer and SAHM...that wants to go back to work in 2 years. I'm afraid there won't be anything for me to go back to, and we're hanging on as it is.

151 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:07:09pm

re: #148 moderatelyradicalliberal

Understand. I think I need a drink.

"One bourbon, one scotch, one beer ..."

152 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:07:15pm

re: #146 jaunte

Lots of big corporate contributors don't need a highly educated workforce.

Yeah, I know. That's why so many of them outsource because even in our current general ignorance American workers are still a bit too uppity. The union workers being the most uppity. It's a race to the bottom.

153 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:07:23pm

New twitter hash tag:

#walkerville

Talking about camping out there.

154 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:07:40pm

re: #139 Gus 802

Report: Major DC Lobby Firm Throwing Fundraiser For Wisconsin GOP Leaders

$1000 a plate? Wouldn't cover the hooker bill.

155 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:07:54pm

re: #115 Merryweather

You've got to hand it to Walker though. He's managed to be a worse governor than Sarah Palin in a fraction of the time, and she was governor for only half a term.

You know what that means-- he'll be the GOP's 2012 VP nominee.

156 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:08:18pm

re: #151 wlewisiii

"One bourbon, one scotch, one beer ..."

And an apple teeny for my friend.

157 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:08:54pm

re: #150 abbyadams

I am so angry right now. I've been fuming since our illustrious governor announced all state education funds from the budget will be cut by almost 50% (PA.) Yet, ZERO increase on permits for Marcellus Shale Drilling. Honestly, I'm not only angry, but scared. My DH is a public school teacher "union thug" too...in the arts. He's our main source of income; although I have a M.S. in Physiology, I taught (non tenure) at Pitt for a long time, and now am mostly a freelance writer and SAHM...that wants to go back to work in 2 years. I'm afraid there won't be anything for me to go back to, and we're hanging on as it is.

Are you in PA?

158 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:09:13pm

re: #155 Lidane

You know what that means-- he'll be the GOP's 2012 VP nominee.

Seeing as the GOP's MO on everything is "If it pisses off liberals, do it", I wouldn't put it beyond them.

159 Interesting Times  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:09:17pm

re: #155 Lidane

You know what that means-- he'll be the GOP's 2012 VP nominee.

Palin/Walker 2012! Into the depths of derpness delve!

160 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:09:30pm

re: #149 Gus 802

This is not a democracy. It is only in that we have a right to vote but the majority of the time we vote for the highest bidders. Ergo, the primary representation is for corporate interests and the super rich.

Citizens United gave the corporatist interests an infinite amount of potential spending power.

Corporatists can use unlimited amounts of revenue gained from the workers labours to elect candidates to crush their own employees dreams.

Citizens United = some form of Kafkaesque torture.

161 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:09:32pm

re: #152 moderatelyradicalliberal

Yeah, I know. That's why so many of them outsource because even in our current general ignorance American workers are still a bit too uppity. The union workers being the most uppity. It's a race to the bottom.

The public unions are now being dismantled, the private ones are next. They've pretty much driven them to the point of extinction already, so it shouldn't be too hard. Once that's done, then the final obstacle in ripping apart decades of blood, sweat, and tears is gone and the transformation of America into China-lite can truly begin.

162 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:09:36pm

re: #147 Stanley Sea

OT, but Weigel tweet just now:

daveweigel daveweigel

MT @Ombudsman: #NPR Schiller said in the full two hour video he is a Republican, and was raised as a Republican. that didn't make it in

This could be a huge blunder for O'Keefe and friends, if Schiller to comes out and states such publicly.

163 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:10:01pm

re: #155 Lidane

You know what that means-- he'll be the GOP's 2012 VP nominee.

Poor Marco Rubio is crying in his beer right now.

164 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:10:22pm

re: #157 moderatelyradicalliberal

I am.

165 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:10:39pm

re: #131 jamesfirecat

I distinctly recall the story of one Japanese Admiral who said that if he was unleashed against the US he would win a string of victories, but if the war dragged on longer than that he feared for Japan...

Pearl Harbor was December 7th 1941

The Battle of Midway ended June 7th 1942.

Jan
Feb
Mar
April
May
June.

That was a man who knew his limits...

The Japanese admiralty knew what limits they were up against:
- US Naval building program was ramping up and was going to swamp them
- Fuel oil shortage (due to US embargo among other things) - A year or so of reserves, despite the fact they were stockpiling extra oil and not telling the government and army they were doing so.

Their limited advantage was fleeting and rapidly disappearing. And rather than accepting that they were going to be economically put into 2nd-level power status they convinced themselves they could win a short, victorious war due to superior moral values and that they were fighting decadent western powers.

166 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:10:47pm

re: #122 Stanley Sea

plcorbett Patrick L. Corbett

Word is that Madison police refuse to assist clearing the #WI State Capitol of protesters tonight. MT @wicapaccess #WIunion #p2 #Mar09

Didn't the president of the fraternal order of police in WI get mad at Walker over all this stuff? I seem to recall him releasing a statement about how they stood with the teachers and public workers in solidarity.

I can only imagine what's going through his mind tonight.

167 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:10:55pm

re: #155 Lidane

You know what that means-- he'll be the GOP's 2012 VP nominee.

Chris Cristie is saying a lot of words, most of them of the four-letter variety, over this right now. He thought he was being big by throwing away federal money, but Scott Walker just eclipsed him and is now the mark to beat.

168 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:11:09pm

re: #159 publicityStunted

Palin/Walker 2012! Into the depths of derpness delve!

The GOP dug too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of cable ... Palin and Beck." (energyandcapital.com)

169 Big Joe  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:11:26pm

re: #154 Decatur Deb

$1000 a plate? Wouldn't cover the hooker bill.

Hookers come out of the expense account, not the political contribution account.

170 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:11:46pm

re: #161 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

The public unions are now being dismantled, the private ones are next. They've pretty much driven them to the point of extinction already, so it shouldn't be too hard. Once that's done, then the final obstacle in ripping apart decades of blood, sweat, and tears is gone and the transformation of America into China-lite can truly begin.

I believe that's been the plan for 30 years or so. I just can't believe that so many Americans voted to give them this last chance to do it.

171 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:12:14pm

re: #166 Lidane

Didn't the president of the fraternal order of police in WI get mad at Walker over all this stuff? I seem to recall him releasing a statement about how they stood with the teachers and public workers in solidarity.

I can only imagine what's going through his mind tonight.

Yep, and yep.

172 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:13:10pm

re: #170 moderatelyradicalliberal

I believe that's been the plan for 30 years or so. I just can't believe that so many Americans voted to give them this last chance to do it.

Terry Gross on the devil show Fresh Air had a union historian on yesterday. Very very interesting.

173 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:13:11pm

re: #170 moderatelyradicalliberal

I believe that's been the plan for 30 years or so. I just can't believe that so many Americans voted to give them this last chance to do it.

Because people who make under $250k have allowed themselves to be fooled into believing that the Republican party gives a fuck about them or their interests.

174 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:13:21pm

re: #170 moderatelyradicalliberal

I believe that's been the plan for 30 years or so. I just can't believe that so many Americans voted to give them this last chance to do it.

Hey now, don't be so glum. It's Good Morning in America...circa 1850.

//

175 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:13:44pm

re: #164 abbyadams

I am.

Another blue/purple state that lost it's mind and went blood red. Note to blue/purple states: if you don't want to be like the Deep South, don't vote like it. I'm here in Texas and I know of what I speak. You guys up North should not be eclipsing us in rightwing foolishness.

176 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:14:33pm

re: #173 Lidane

Because people who make under $250k have allowed themselves to be fooled into believing that the Republican party gives a fuck about them or their interests.

"Most men with nothing would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich than face the reality of being poor."

1776

177 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:14:40pm

re: #49 rwmofo

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?

Straight from Rush's mouth to mofo's keyboard. Tool.

178 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:14:46pm

Oh, the sleeping dragon and all that

Wisconsin, Anonymous is listening. Tell us what you need: [Link: bit.ly...] #wisconsin #wiunion #solidarity #opwisconsin

179 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:14:58pm

But don't forget folks - it's the workers who are destroying America. Community organisers and union members are bringing the country to it's knees.

The highly paid bods at the credit ratings agencies who were asleep at the switch when shit was pushed under their noses and told it was lavender get a pass in Teabagger world.

180 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:14:58pm

re: #175 moderatelyradicalliberal

Another blue/purple state that lost it's mind and went blood red. Note to blue/purple states: if you don't want to be like the Deep South, don't vote like it. I'm here in Texas and I know of what I speak. You guys up North should not be eclipsing us in rightwing foolishness.

Seriously. Leave the far right idiocy to the states that are filled with bitter rednecks who can't get over losing the Civil War.

181 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:15:00pm

re: #174 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Hey now, don't be so glum. It's Good Morning in America...circa 1850.

//

S'OK, History is easier the second time around.

182 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:15:15pm

re: #174 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Hey now, don't be so glum. It's Good Morning in America...circa 1850.

//

Oh shit, I'm a slave! Talk about lack of worker's rights.

I need a plane ticket to Canada!

//

183 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:16:12pm

Between this, the anti-woman shit in every red state, and MO state senator Jane Cunningham's pro-child labor bill, it really does feel as if America's on the verge of tumbling back into the Middle Ages.

184 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:16:19pm

re: #182 moderatelyradicalliberal

Oh shit, I'm a slave! Talk about lack of worker's rights.

I need a plane ticket to Canada!

//

Follow the Drinkin' Gourd.

185 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:16:29pm
Youtube Video

Better music in Canada!

186 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:16:29pm

re: #176 jamesfirecat

"Most men with nothing would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich than face the reality of being poor."

1776

Jesus, these quotes are awesome tonight. I think many people would gladly wallow in mud if they knew somebody else they didn't like was wallowing in shit.

187 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:17:14pm

re: #175 moderatelyradicalliberal

Blue on both ends and red in the middle. I'm about 22 miles east of Pgh. Blood, blood red. McMansions and rednecks. One of the only counties to go redder in the 2008 election than in the 2004 one. When this education bill gets passed (Penn State already announced it will probably have to close some branch campuses,) we'll start our race to the bottom of the pile.

188 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:17:41pm

daveweigel daveweigel

RT @MikeElk MT @IljusMaximus: While Wisconsin is going nuclear, @CNN has yet another special on Charlie Sheen. Worse than Gaddafi state TV

189 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:18:20pm

re: #167 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Chris Cristie is saying a lot of words, most of them of the four-letter variety, over this right now. He thought he was being big by throwing away federal money, but Scott Walker just eclipsed him and is now the mark to beat.

So that means that so far none of the GOP candidates has a chance of beating Obama and non of their potential VP candidates could win their own states?

190 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:18:32pm

re: #188 Stanley Sea

daveweigel daveweigel

RT @MikeElk MT @IljusMaximus: While Wisconsin is going nuclear, @CNN has yet another special on Charlie Sheen. Worse than Gaddafi state TV

The "liberal" media in action. WTF.

191 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:18:34pm

re: #188 Stanley Sea

daveweigel daveweigel

RT @MikeElk MT @IljusMaximus: While Wisconsin is going nuclear, @CNN has yet another special on Charlie Sheen. Worse than Gaddafi state TV

UFB

192 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:18:35pm

I already know all the words to O Canada, and hockey's my favorite sport. In preparation.

193 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:18:36pm

plcorbett Patrick L. Corbett

Just got a report that UWPD has delivered hundreds of plastic handcuffs to Capitol in preparation for mass arrests #wiunion #p2 MT @WORTnews

194 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:20:01pm

re: #84 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Their attacks are easy to understand, they're trying to cripple the Democratic Party as an opposition to them in future elections. Union funding, college voters, etc, etc. They know they can't win 2012 without trickery, so they're throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the DNC's voter base.

A more constructive approach for the gop would be to reach out to some of the groups of voters they traditionally lose. But that would be a lot more difficult and time consuming than just trying to kill the unions.

Today's Republicans are so short-sighted I seriously doubt that they really care about long-term deficit reduction; it's just their current rhetorical ploy to energize disaffected whites and, of course, their base.

195 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:20:04pm

re: #188 Stanley Sea

daveweigel daveweigel

RT @MikeElk MT @IljusMaximus: While Wisconsin is going nuclear, @CNN has yet another special on Charlie Sheen. Worse than Gaddafi state TV

It's the definition of Yellow Journalism.

196 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:20:11pm

re: #187 abbyadams

Blue on both ends and red in the middle. I'm about 22 miles east of Pgh. Blood, blood red. McMansions and rednecks. One of the only counties to go redder in the 2008 election than in the 2004 one. When this education bill gets passed (Penn State already announced it will probably have to close some branch campuses,) we'll start our race to the bottom of the pile.

Sounds like Murraysville. I used to live in Penn Hills.

197 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:20:11pm

re: #187 abbyadams

Blue on both ends and red in the middle. I'm about 22 miles east of Pgh. Blood, blood red. McMansions and rednecks. One of the only counties to go redder in the 2008 election than in the 2004 one. When this education bill gets passed (Penn State already announced it will probably have to close some branch campuses,) we'll start our race to the bottom of the pile.

I just can't believe it's morally and politically easier to gut education, than raise taxes on the top 1%.

Yep, I need this vodka right now.

198 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:20:24pm

re: #189 moderatelyradicalliberal

So that means that so far none of the GOP candidates has a chance of beating Obama and non of their potential VP candidates could win their own states?

Hence why they're hard at work with the time and support they have remaining, tearing at the foundation of the Dems financial and public support. They can't win on their own, so their next option is to kneecap the opposition.

199 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:20:28pm

re: #188 Stanley Sea

daveweigel daveweigel

RT @MikeElk MT @IljusMaximus: While Wisconsin is going nuclear, @CNN has yet another special on Charlie Sheen. Worse than Gaddafi state TV

They can't be giving the plebs any ideas as to whats happening. Some of them might wake up.

I mean seriously - can't CNN now just start sharing staff with TMZ?

Even the folks who host shows on E! (Joel Mchale and Chelsea Handler) have more of a fucking clue.

200 Opal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:20:28pm

re: #108 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"SHIT! Just heard through the grapevine that the Dem Senators are rushing back to Madison to get their voices heard. "

No, they're not heading back. Rachel Maddow just had one on, and he said it could be like walking into a trap, so they're staying in Illinois until further notice.

201 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:21:34pm

Wisc. GOP State Senators escorted from Capitol
[Link: www.wisn.com...]

202 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:21:45pm

re: #196 oaktree

Close...Westmoreland County, not Allegheny.

203 blueraven  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:22:30pm

Wow this whole maneuver was uglier than I even imagined. Did anyone else see the video of the vote on Rachel Maddow?

It was Insane!

204 moose9t9  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:22:44pm

My guess here is Walker will get stronger in the short term because his supporters will come out of the woodwork and the wound-licking among Democrats will commence. My hope is that the voters are angry and serious enough to follow through on some of their threats i.e. recalls or voting for the other guy.

Please let this be a bad political thriller from the early 90's. The 80's and 70's ones totally rock.

205 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:22:46pm

re: #187 abbyadams

re: #196 oaktree

Our family lived 2 miles, line-of sight, from Jones & Laughlin Steel.

206 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:22:50pm

re: #198 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Hence why they're hard at work with the time and support they have remaining, tearing at the foundation of the Dems financial and public support. They can't win on their own, so their next option is to kneecap the opposition.

This makes sense. The Democrats have effectively won the demographic battle and won't be ceding it anytime soon, so the GOP has to attack the Democrat's infrastructure. I guess we'll find out how much of a counter balance it will be in 2012.

207 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:22:51pm

re: #197 moderatelyradicalliberal

I never used to buy the notion that there was some sort of plan to keep people stupid so you can tell them anything, and they'd do it.

I am reconsidering this. Join you in that vodka, if you don't mind.

208 Big Joe  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:23:17pm

Yeah, I started thinking of retiring to Vancouver Island instead of the mid-west US recently. Besides, I don't think I'd fit in in Missouri, and Canada is looking better every month. I just wonder what happens to my pension and if I'd have to buy into their health care. I can easily move back, I was born there.

209 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:23:47pm

re: #120 Gus 802

I'll be honest with you though. The left has been sitting on their ass ever since Obama was sworn in. Stop being so passive. Get up and fight like you did before November of 2008.

That's right... let's get something going, something moving, like moving somewhere... like Illinois maybe.

210 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:24:00pm
The lone Democrat present on the conference committee, Rep. Tony Barca, shouted that the surprise meeting was a violation of the state's open meetings law, but Republicans voted over his objections. The Senate then convened within minutes and passed it without discussion or debate.

"This is outrageous. It's illegal," Democratic state Rep. Tamara Grigsby said.[Link: www.wisn.com...]

Anyone here know what the law says?

211 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:24:16pm

re: #200 Opal

"SHIT! Just heard through the grapevine that the Dem Senators are rushing back to Madison to get their voices heard. "

No, they're not heading back. Rachel Maddow just had one on, and he said it could be like walking into a trap, so they're staying in Illinois until further notice.

Fine. Then they can watch their followers get laid off. Walker offered them concessions, which they refused. So now its time for the hammer to come down.

212 Big Joe  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:24:17pm

re: #197 moderatelyradicalliberal

I just can't believe it's morally and politically easier to gut education, than raise taxes on the top 1%.

Yep, I need this vodka right now.

I've sucked down 3 beers since seeing the popup about this on my iphone.

213 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:24:19pm

News3David David Douglas

Car horns blaring wildly outside. Feels like being in Chile after last Presidential election. I have never seen it like this.

214 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:24:21pm

re: #205 Decatur Deb

re: #196 oaktree

Our family lived 2 miles, line-of sight, from Jones & Laughlin Steel.

Before it became a vast wasteland in the 80s I assume. (Though now it's been remediated into tech park and such in the last decade or so.)

215 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:24:39pm

And suddenly, a potential summer internship abroad is looking like a good idea. I think I need a mental health break from this country for a while.

216 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:24:41pm

re: #175 moderatelyradicalliberal

Another blue/purple state that lost it's mind and went blood red. Note to blue/purple states: if you don't want to be like the Deep South, don't vote like it. I'm here in Texas and I know of what I speak. You guys up North should not be eclipsing us in rightwing foolishness.

Interesting thing about TX: it has virtually the same ethnic/racial mix as CA. Nonwhite votes are about the same in each state. But in CA the Dems get roughly half the white vote; in TX, Dems get only 25% of the white vote (higher in the cities, lower in rural areas). And that's the difference between a deep red and deep blue state.

217 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:24:54pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

Fine. Then they can watch their followers get laid off. Walker offered them concessions, which they refused. So now its time for the hammer to come down.

So, for the record, you approve of this?

218 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:25:14pm

katierosenberg Katie Rosenberg
by News3David

RT @WSJ_CityEditor: Police have pulled back from the State Street doors to the Capitol and are letting protesters in unfettered.

219 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:25:39pm

re: #213 Stanley Sea

News3David David Douglas

Car horns blaring wildly outside. Feels like being in Chile after last Presidential election. I have never seen it like this.

Shit's gonna hit the fan tomorrow.

I hope so at least.

220 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:25:47pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

I'll never, ever understand how anyone can look at what just happened and see a good thing. It makes no sense.

221 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:25:50pm

re: #206 moderatelyradicalliberal

This makes sense. The Democrats have effectively won the demographic battle and won't be ceding it anytime soon, so the GOP has to attack the Democrat's infrastructure. I guess we'll find out how much of a counter balance it will be in 2012.

Half of all children in CA are now Latino........... thats a bunch of house seats gone in a dozen years is the GOP continue the way they are.

Unless the GOP tack center and pretty fucking soon they will have no constituency left. Old white men only live so long.

222 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:25:58pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

Fine. Then they can watch their followers get laid off. Walker offered them concessions, which they refused. So now its time for the hammer to come down.

What concessions did Walker offer?

223 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:26:07pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

That's right... let's get something going, something moving, like moving somewhere... like Illinois maybe.

If he's willing to vote for honest Dems, Gus would be more than welcome in my eyes. I'd rather Illinois have two honest parties rather than the current one corrupt party and one semi-corrupt party.

224 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:27:02pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

Fine. Then they can watch their followers get laid off. Walker offered them concessions, which they refused. So now its time for the hammer to come down.

Walker offered concessions? That's news to me.

225 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:27:08pm

re: #222 palomino

What concessions did Walker offer?

The ones where unions deliberately slit their own throats and he got his way.

226 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:27:24pm

re: #202 abbyadams

Close...Westmoreland County, not Allegheny.

Murraysville right on the county line essentially. East on 22 runs you out through Delmont eventually. North on 286 puts you in Holiday Park and then eventually up into North Washington and the area around PSNK and the Alcoa Tech Ctr once the goofy merge with 380 takes place.

;)

Old stomping grounds since my parents lived in Allegheny Twp for 7-8 years and I learned to drive on those roads. And then golfing and lots of other running about once I moved back there in 1990.

227 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:27:32pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

Fine. Then they can watch their followers get laid off. Walker offered them concessions, which they refused. So now its time for the hammer to come down.

Dark they offered to take cuts if they could keep collective bargaining and Walker refused.

Step up your game Dark you are so much better than this!

I think it's time that somebody posted this because this is how I got to know the song...

Sort of captures the true spirit of the labor unions struggle for existence a lot better doesn't it?

(Non sarcasm)

228 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:27:35pm

re: #224 Merryweather

Walker offered concessions? That's news to me.

"Look at me funny again and lose your job, son".

229 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:27:37pm

re: #219 Gus 802

Shit's gonna hit the fan tomorrow.

I hope so at least.

So long as it doesn't result in riots, I welcome it. But the last thing we need is to give Walker the sort of punch-throwing and curb-stomping that a move like this seems intended to stir up.

To quote a wise man, "Don't give the prick the satisfaction."

230 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:27:43pm

re: #214 oaktree

Before it became a vast wasteland in the 80s I assume. (Though now it's been remediated into tech park and such in the last decade or so.)

40's, before our house on the Bluff became a Duquesne parking lot.

231 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:27:57pm

re: #224 Merryweather

He 'offered'-- though not in any firm way-- the unions having to recertify every three years instead of every one. Meaningless compromise. Forcing recertification is a way to kill the union.

232 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:28:10pm

STIRKE BABY!


Anarchy!

Youtube Video
233 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:28:16pm

re: #222 palomino

What concessions did Walker offer?

According to CNN (and the state Dems confirmed this) he offered to continue to allow collective bargaining on a number of issues other than salary and require reauthorization of unions once every three years instead of once a year. The Dems still refused to return.

234 blueraven  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:28:17pm

re: #210 jaunte

Anyone here know what the law says?

24 hr notice is the law in WI for a vote as noted by the house democrat that was present. He got shouted down and the vote was cast as he was objecting to the procedure. They wouldn't even tell him what was in the bill. It was ugly!

235 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:29:13pm

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

Do you understand that requiring reauthorization of the union every three years rather than every year is not a meaningful concession?

Do you think this bill has no fiscal aspect?

236 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:29:13pm

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

You mean the same CNN that would rather show a special about Charlie Sheen instead of what's going on in WI?

Yeah. Real reliable source there. =P

237 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:29:16pm

re: #230 Decatur Deb

40's, before our house on the Bluff became a Duquesne parking lot.

:p

Ouch. Pity to lose that view along the Blvd of the Allies. One of the better ones. At least once the pollution cleared up.

238 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:29:52pm

re: #226 oaktree

Oh, yeah - I know right were Murraysville is. I take 286 to IUP every now and then.

239 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:30:22pm

re: #224 Merryweather

Walker offered concessions? That's news to me.

IIRC, this is the story that broke today. Walker supposedly offered the Dem Senators on the run, through email, to "revise" the union-busting provisions to allow a couple extra items be allowed for collective bargaining. He would still maintain, however, the bit about dues and the bit about annual recertification votes.

In short, his concessions were a joke, but the fact that he "offered" was supposed to be proof that it's the Dems were the ones who didn't want to bargain.

240 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:30:30pm

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

According to CNN (and the state Dems confirmed this) he offered to continue to allow collective bargaining on a number of issues other than salary and require reauthorization of unions once every three years instead of once a year. The Dems still refused to return.

Dark collective bargaining is not something that SHOULD EVER be taken away for any reason.

Unless Walker was willing to take removing collective bargaining off the table, it wasn't a concession it was an offer to stab them with a knife instead of impale them with a sword.

241 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:30:38pm

re: #230 Decatur Deb

Whoops. Probably parked on your living room, then, at least once.

242 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:31:29pm

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

Also- no offer was ever made. Discussions were had. That is not the same thing in any way.

243 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:31:35pm

re: #232 Gus 802

Sleep Now In The Fire

Youtube Video
244 Spocomptonite  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:31:57pm

They way they did this, you'd think the Republicans were honey badgers. THEY DON'T CARE.

Dear Republicans thinking about another term: How many honey badgers have been elected to any position in the U.S.?

245 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:32:00pm

re: #231 Obdicut

He 'offered'-- though not in any firm way-- the unions having to recertify every three years instead of every one. Meaningless compromise. Forcing recertification is a way to kill the union.

And the Dems offered to OK Walker's cuts if he'd drop the union-busting crap (which is the definition of a fair offer).

Saying Walker's the reasonable one here is pure BS.

246 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:32:03pm

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

According to CNN (and the state Dems confirmed this) he offered to continue to allow collective bargaining on a number of issues other than salary and require reauthorization of unions once every three years instead of once a year. The Dems still refused to return.

Care to specify those "number of issues other than salary" where CB would still be allowed. Do you really consider those "concessions" to be meaningful? Clearly the intent was to kill unions, the budget was already balanced. You'd be screaming bloody murder if the Dems tried a naked power grab at the expense of the middle class; in fact, you probably have in the past.

247 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:32:45pm

re: #246 palomino

Heh. Here they are:

Unions would be allowed to bargain over certain economic issues, including mandatory overtime, performance bonuses, hazardous duty pay and classroom size. On this set of issues, both labor and management would have to agree to discuss them for bargaining to happen.


• Unions could bargain over workplace safety, but that would be limited to workers' physical health and safety. It would not allow bargaining over hours, overtime, sick leave or family leave, work schedules or vacation
248 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:32:54pm

re: #185 oaktree

[Video]

Better music in Canada!

Only because you foisted Celine Dion and Justin Bieber on us; if we could put them back on your scorecard our average music quality would skyrocket and yours would plummet.

249 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:33:04pm

re: #240 jamesfirecat

Dark collective bargaining is not something that SHOULD EVER be taken away for any reason.

Unless Walker was willing to take removing collective bargaining off the table, it wasn't a concession it was an offer to stab them with a knife instead of impale them with a sword.

I disagree. I've made it clear from the start with this issue that I oppose collective bargaining for public sector workers.

250 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:33:19pm

re: #240 jamesfirecat

Dark collective bargaining is not something that SHOULD EVER be taken away for any reason.

Unless Walker was willing to take removing collective bargaining off the table, it wasn't a concession it was an offer to stab them with a knife instead of impale them with a sword.

Public unions do not collectively bargain... they collectively glad hand between their friends the liberal legislators. Bargaining implies a give and take, not a take and take.

251 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:33:40pm

re: #249 Dark_Falcon

You've never actually provided a coherent reason why, though.

252 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:34:14pm

re: #247 Obdicut

So if management refuses to talk, there's no point in being in a union under those rules.

253 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:34:15pm

re: #247 Obdicut

Heh. Here they are:

*deadpan* My, how generous he is. Truly he is a saint.

254 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:34:15pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

Fine. Then they can watch their followers get laid off. Walker offered them concessions, which they refused. So now its time for the hammer to come down.

since the unions had already conceeded on the money issues long ago, can you explain to me, dark, why it is important to you and you think that it's a good thing that collective bargaining rights be taken away?

255 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:34:32pm

re: #194 palomino

Today's Republicans are so short-sighted I seriously doubt that they really care about long-term deficit reduction; it's just their current rhetorical ploy to energize disaffected whites and, of course, their base.

Most of them are over 60; they don't have a long-term.

256 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:34:51pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

Speaking of incoherent reasoning.

It's somehow bad for unions to influence politics, since they can benefit from it, but it's fine for corporations to influence politics, since they can benefit from it.

Weeee.

257 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:34:52pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

Public unions do not collectively bargain... they collectively glad hand between their friends the liberal legislators. Bargaining implies a give and take, not a take and take.

Downding man, sorry.

258 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:34:53pm

Wisconsin Senate Leader Admits Purpose Of Union Busting Is To Defeat Obama

If we win this battle, and the money is not there under the auspices of the unions, certainly what you’re going to find is President Obama is going to have a much difficult, much more difficult time getting elected and winning the state of Wisconsin.

Youtube Video
259 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:35:05pm

re: #239 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

IIRC, this is the story that broke today. Walker supposedly offered the Dem Senators on the run, through email, to "revise" the union-busting provisions to allow a couple extra items be allowed for collective bargaining. He would still maintain, however, the bit about dues and the bit about annual recertification votes.

In short, his concessions were a joke, but the fact that he "offered" was supposed to be proof that it's the Dems were the ones who didn't want to bargain.

Yeah, and the right runs with the word OFFER.

Utter bullshit, non thinking, brainwashing.

260 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:35:06pm

re: #237 oaktree

:p

Ouch. Pity to lose that view along the Blvd of the Allies. One of the better ones. At least once the pollution cleared up.

Pollution? Environmental art--red glowing skies for iron, glowing green for copper. (And the streetlights on at noon in the Point.)

261 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:35:24pm

re: #223 Dark_Falcon

If he's willing to vote for honest Dems, Gus would be more than welcome in my eyes. I'd rather Illinois have two honest parties rather than the current one corrupt party and one semi-corrupt party.

Oh. I get it now. "The left" and Illinois. Of course that wasn't my point. When I say "the left" I'm not including the Democratic Party as a whole.

262 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:35:31pm

re: #249 Dark_Falcon

I disagree. I've made it clear from the start with this issue that I oppose collective bargaining for public sector workers.

Yes and you can have that opinion you have a right to have your own opinion as an American Citizen.

I feel that opinion is WRONG !!! with every ounce of my being and will say so over and over again.

But thank you for effectively calling my ENTIRE PUBLIC SECTOR UNION BELONGING TO DIRECT FAMILY (mother, father and brother) part of my states budget issues...

263 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:35:47pm

re: #249 Dark_Falcon

I disagree. I've made it clear from the start with this issue that I oppose collective bargaining for public sector workers.

why?

264 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:35:54pm

re: #257 wozzablog

Downding man, sorry.

I'm suppose to give a shit? You're not that important man. So what, you don't agree with me... I'm devastated.

265 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:35:59pm

re: #255 sagehen

Most of them are over 60; they don't have a long-term.

Ageist punk.

266 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:36:01pm

re: #255 sagehen

Right. Saw this comment today under an article announcing that the new PA budget is going to gut the PA EPA:

...

you hit the nail on the head with your comment regarding the fact that so many Americans no longer care about the environment. They make no connection between their own health and that of their loved ones with environmental degradation. I was playing beach volleyball one day with a group of people. Somehow the talk got around to the environmental issues and a few conservative types began bashing “hippies and tree huggers”. One woman flatly said she didn’t care if there were trees along the coast or anywhere for that matter because she would be dead in forty years anyway. Her four year old daughter sat just a few feet away playing in the sand.

Short term only.

267 Merryweather  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:36:07pm

re: #247 Obdicut

Heh. Here they are:

Great. "We'll technically allow you to bargain, but only if we give you permission." Some deal.

268 blueraven  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:36:23pm

Here is the video of the vote. Tell me this is DEMOCRACY!

MSNBC Video
269 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:36:33pm

It's raining

270 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:36:36pm

re: #255 sagehen

Most of them are over 60; they don't have a long-term.

Which is all the more ironic because they always use their grandchildren as the group they're fighting to supposedly protect.

271 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:36:47pm

re: #255 sagehen

Most of them are over 60; they don't have a long-term.

All depends at how effective Obama care proves at making sure everyone can get the treatments they need to stay alive doesn't it?

272 Spocomptonite  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:36:57pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

Public unions do not collectively bargain... they collectively glad hand between their friends the liberal legislators. Bargaining implies a give and take, not a take and take.

In a world with inflation and a country with skyrocketing health insurance rates, not getting any increases is a 'give'.

273 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:36:59pm

re: #267 Merryweather

We'll discuss your issues on Feb 31 next year.

274 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:37:10pm

daveweigel daveweigel

Maddow talking about #wiunion; Hannity talking about "Atlas Shrugged" movie. Kinda fitting.

275 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:37:40pm

re: #267 Merryweather

Great. "We'll technically allow you to bargain, but only if we give you permission." Some deal.

Sure is. The union gets the opportunity to say "We want to change these things," and management says "Sorry, you take what you get." After all, isn't that the American way?

///

276 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:37:43pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

Fine. Then they can watch their followers get laid off. Walker offered them concessions, which they refused. So now its time for the hammer to come down.

What concessions? He was never negotiating in bad faith. He flat out lied when he said that busting unions was about the budget. This was passed in a non-budgetary measure. What more proof is needed?

277 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:37:53pm

re: #267 Merryweather

Great. "We'll technically allow you to bargain, but only if we give you permission." Some deal.

Sounds like an abusive spouse saying they'll allow you to patch up the bruises, but only after they beat you first.

278 Spocomptonite  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:38:04pm

re: #264 Walter L. Newton

I'm suppose to give a shit? You're not that important man. So what, you don't agree with me... I'm devastated.

I give you 10,000 stuck-up points, though. Not that you care about that, either.

279 quiet reader  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:38:14pm

Why would Walker offer any meaningful concessions to the unions?

KochRoaches don't negotiate, they dictate.

280 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:38:19pm

re: #274 Stanley Sea

daveweigel daveweigel

Maddow talking about #wiunion; Hannity talking about "Atlas Shrugged" movie. Kinda fitting.

what's more relevant than a horribly acted Ayn Rand movie? :D

281 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:38:25pm

re: #264 Walter L. Newton

I'm suppose to give a shit? You're not that important man. So what, you don't agree with me... I'm devastated.

You have one of those ivory towers with the unrestricted view?.

282 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:38:41pm

re: #261 Gus 802

Oh. I get it now. "The left" and Illinois. Of course that wasn't my point. When I say "the left" I'm not including the Democratic Party as a whole.

Sorry, I got in late. I'm on my association's board, and we were having a meeting, so I didn't see your earlier posts. My intention was to say that as an honest man who tends to vote Democratic, I feel you'd ultimately be beneficial to the state by helping to make the Dems more honest.

283 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:38:56pm

re: #268 blueraven

Here is the video of the vote. Tell me this is DEMOCRACY!

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Wow, looks like a clusterfuck to me.

284 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:39:14pm

re: #274 Stanley Sea

daveweigel daveweigel

Maddow talking about #wiunion; Hannity talking about "Atlas Shrugged" movie. Kinda fitting.

Yeah, I've seen the Right flagellating over such a "masterpiece" finally being brought to cinema. Thanks, I'll stick to Bioshock, personally.

285 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:39:35pm

Let us pray to the god of corporations! Soon we shall privatize everything in America and it will be under corporate rule! No more unions, not more public services. Everything will be based on a private subscription to services!

//

286 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:39:48pm

re: #216 palomino

Interesting thing about TX: it has virtually the same ethnic/racial mix as CA. Nonwhite votes are about the same in each state. But in CA the Dems get roughly half the white vote; in TX, Dems get only 25% of the white vote (higher in the cities, lower in rural areas). And that's the difference between a deep red and deep blue state.

That's because Texas is culturally more Southern so white voters here vote like they do in the Deep South. CA is more liberal than Texas even without it's demographics.

287 blueraven  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:40:14pm

re: #283 Killgore Trout

Wow, looks like a clusterfuck to me.

That's an apt description.

288 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:40:15pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

Public unions do not collectively bargain... they collectively glad hand between their friends the liberal legislators. Bargaining implies a give and take, not a take and take.

i can assert a lot of things if i never have to prove them

prove it

289 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:40:18pm

re: #284 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I predict a lot of pained complaints about liberal movie critics.

290 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:40:22pm

re: #280 WindUpBird

what's more relevant than a horribly acted Ayn Rand movie? :D

The Bioshock movie?

Assuming its ever going to come out...

291 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:40:24pm

re: #285 Gus 802

Let us pray to the god of corporations! Soon we shall privatize everything in America and it will be under corporate rule! No more unions, not more public services. Everything will be based on a private subscription to services!

//

Adam Smith be praised!

//

292 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:41:04pm

re: #258 negativ

Wisconsin Senate Leader Admits Purpose Of Union Busting Is To Defeat Obama

[Video]

Obama won WI by 13 points in 2008; it would be a tough pickup for the gop, especially if their gov and state legislature are unpopular. There's gonna be plenty of money to spend in WI, because there's no need to spend a dime of all that money raised in NY, CA, IL, MA, etc. in those respective states. IF WI turns out to be a battleground, it's unlikely the state will just go to the highest bidder.

293 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:41:09pm

re: #291 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Adam Smith Ayn Rand be praised!

//

FTFY

294 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:41:13pm

re: #285 Gus 802

Let us pray to the god of corporations! Soon we shall privatize everything in America and it will be under corporate rule! No more unions, not more public services. Everything will be based on a private subscription to services!

//

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

295 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:41:29pm

re: #288 engineer dog

i can assert a lot of things if i never have to prove them

prove it

My statement in itself is proof. Deal with it. Reading is comprehension.

296 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:41:41pm

re: #291 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Adam Smith be praised!

//

So much for John Galt. I think it's pretty funny. That so many self described Randians would replace government bureaucracy with a private bureaucracy.

297 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:41:56pm

re: #284 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, I've seen the Right flagellating over such a "masterpiece" finally being brought to cinema. Thanks, I'll stick to Bioshock, personally.

The "right" won't watch it, it's obviously a terrible film, it's like that underground Christian fundie film market, Megiddo, Omega Code, etc, but without the actual so-con megachurch-based marketing shove

298 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:42:17pm

re: #294 jamesfirecat

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

Not if it's done on my land! In my building! Under my watch!

//Authoritarian

299 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:42:20pm

re: #296 Gus 802

So much for John Galt. I think it's pretty funny. That so many self described Randians would replace government bureaucracy with a private bureaucracy.

FREE MARKETS SOLVE EVERYTHING!!!eleventy!!1!1!!

300 freetoken  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:43:25pm

re: #296 Gus 802

I think it is even funnier that so many fundamentalist Christian Tea Partiers embrace one of the more rabid anti-Christian authors of their lifetime.

301 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:43:29pm

re: #296 Gus 802

So much for John Galt. I think it's pretty funny. That so many self described Randians would replace government bureaucracy with a private bureaucracy.

I wouldn't. I like some of the jobs that local and federal governments perform. I wouldn't clean sewers, plow streets, probably wouldn't much enjoy holding a gun and shooting at someone. Law enforcement and public safety services are neat things.

302 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:43:33pm

re: #299 Lidane

FREE MARKETS SOLVE EVERYTHING!!!eleventy!!1!1!!

///Why do we have some kind of government funded socialist army made up of government employees? If America wants to win wars it is going to need to start employing private citzens willing to fight for the highest bidder that's how you get real quality fighting men!

303 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:43:34pm

re: #295 Walter L. Newton

My statement in itself is proof. Deal with it. Reading is comprehension.

if i ever wanted to be taken seriously again in a public forum, i would never make statements like this

304 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:43:48pm

gah

305 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:44:00pm

re: #258 negativ

Wisconsin Senate Leader Admits Purpose Of Union Busting Is To Defeat Obama

[Video]

It's all about that black dude in the White House.

306 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:44:14pm

re: #300 freetoken

I think it is even funnier that so many fundamentalist Christian Tea Partiers embrace one of the more rabid anti-Christian authors of their lifetime.

That's because they're idiots who just read whatever Fox News tells them to. Context? History? Pfft.

307 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:44:14pm

re: #292 palomino

Obama won WI by 13 points in 2008; it would be a tough pickup for the gop, especially if their gov and state legislature are unpopular. There's gonna be plenty of money to spend in WI, because there's no need to spend a dime of all that money raised in NY, CA, IL, MA, etc. in those respective states. IF WI turns out to be a battleground, it's unlikely the state will just go to the highest bidder.

Not true. The Dems got hammered in Illinois in 2010, and given the clueless budget Gov. Quinn put out, they've got a good chance of being hammered again. Any Illinois Dems who think they can relax are in for a rue awakening.

308 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:44:54pm

re: #249 Dark_Falcon

I disagree. I've made it clear from the start with this issue that I oppose collective bargaining for public sector workers.

why?

309 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:45:14pm

re: #302 jamesfirecat

///Why do we have some kind of government funded socialist army made up of government employees? If America wants to win wars it is going to need to start employing private citzens willing to fight for the highest bidder that's how you get real quality fighting men!

Even Ayn Rand allowed for military defense as a legitimate state action.

310 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:45:22pm

re: #303 engineer dog

if i ever wanted to be taken seriously again in a public forum, i would never make statements like this

Then don't. And you're not me, and you're not telling me what I can or can't say, or what my opinion should or should be... you're not doing that are you? And any sort of berating doesn't work, just makes you look like a slug.

You got my opinions, too bad, so sad.

311 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:46:09pm

News3David David Douglas

Downtown is pandemonium right now.

312 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:46:12pm

re: #307 Dark_Falcon

Not true. The Dems got hammered in Illinois in 2010, and given the clueless budget Gov. Quinn put out, they've got a good chance of being hammered again. Any Illinois Dems who think they can relax are in for a rue awakening.

The problem Dark is that bigger issues trickle down Dark.

If the Republicans run someone crazy pants (and who aren't they running that are crazy pants at the moment?) people will run to the polls to vote against them and then stay to vote D on other issues also...

313 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:46:27pm

re: #280 WindUpBird

what's more relevant than a horribly acted Ayn Rand movie? :D

How could it not be horribly acted? They book sucked dog balls.

314 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:46:41pm

daveweigel daveweigel

RT @MikeElk: Madison Ithmus only 8 blocks wide, protestors speaking of forming human chain to strech it and shut down all traffic #wiunion

315 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:46:48pm

re: #311 Stanley Sea

News3David David Douglas

Downtown is pandemonium right now.


Oh MAN where's the FOOTAGE

316 freetoken  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:46:54pm

To me, if the so called "conservatives" really were concerned about the over-reach of government they'd be out protesting something like this:

Home Gene Test Kits May Need Doctor Review, U.S. Rules, FDA Official Says

But no, instead, they're out targeting one of the lowest paid professions in the country.

317 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:47:04pm

re: #314 Stanley Sea

daveweigel daveweigel

RT @MikeElk: Madison Ithmus only 8 blocks wide, protestors speaking of forming human chain to strech it and shut down all traffic #wiunion

cool

318 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:47:08pm

re: #309 Dark_Falcon

Even Ayn Rand allowed for military defense as a legitimate state action.

She also liked welfare. Just as long as no one knew about it.

319 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:47:24pm

re: #314 Stanley Sea

daveweigel daveweigel

RT @MikeElk: Madison Ithmus only 8 blocks wide, protestors speaking of forming human chain to strech it and shut down all traffic #wiunion

Anarchy!

;)

320 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:47:34pm

lol, weigel is on a ROLL

daveweigel daveweigel

Y'all, Piers Morgan has a TIMELY interview with Todd Bridges right now.

321 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:48:08pm

re: #291 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Adam Smith be praised!

//

Adam Smith had much more time for government than a lot of people think. He credited that Government should undertake such schemes as the private man alone can not handle.
He is abused by corporatists - Smith understood very well the need for Government to maintain the market place.

322 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:48:16pm

Now the braindead "watchers" are going to think I'm an anarchist. Dipshits.

323 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:48:28pm

re: #286 moderatelyradicalliberal

That's because Texas is culturally more Southern so white voters here vote like they do in the Deep South. CA is more liberal than Texas even without it's demographics.

The interesting thing is that even though whites only make up about 45% of the TX population, they're 60% of the state's electorate. That's largely because the black and Hispanic populations are disproportionately young (can't vote yet) while the white population is disproportionately old.

You don't need a PhD in math to see where this is headed: in a decade or two, TX is likely to become a competitive state as old white people die off and younger nonwhites become old enough to vote.

324 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:48:36pm

re: #316 freetoken

To me, if the so called "conservatives" really were concerned about the over-reach of government they'd be out protesting something like this:

Home Gene Test Kits May Need Doctor Review, U.S. Rules, FDA Official Says

But no, instead, they're out targeting one of the lowest paid professions in the country.

they're targeting teachers because the notion of education is a threat to the GOP

325 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:48:38pm

re: #315 WindUpBird

Oh MAN where's the FOOTAGE

rioting or gtfo

/

326 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:48:44pm

re: #309 Dark_Falcon

Even Ayn Rand allowed for military defense as a legitimate state action.

"Defense" being the operative word. Does providing defense for this nation require that we have military bases in all 4 corners of the Earth?

327 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:49:00pm

re: #322 Gus 802

Now the braindead "watchers" are going to think I'm an anarchist. Dipshits.

If you were an anarchist, you wouldn't be on a blog claiming you are an anarchist.

328 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:49:14pm

re: #322 Gus 802

Now the braindead "watchers" are going to think I'm an anarchist. Dipshits.

You can't feel responsible for the slow, God loves them in their own way

329 thatthatisis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:49:20pm

I just watched the end of the Big East basketball game.

The Wisconsin people are kind of like the Rutgers team right now. Losing, and for all the wrong reasons.

330 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:49:42pm

re: #326 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"Defense" being the operative word. Does providing defense for this nation require that we have military bases in all 4 corners of the Earth?

defense, no.

Domination, yes!

331 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:49:49pm

re: #299 Lidane

FREE MARKETS SOLVE EVERYTHING!!!eleventy!!1!1!!


Youtube Video
332 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:50:18pm

re: #322 Gus 802

Now the braindead "watchers" are going to think I'm an anarchist. Dipshits.

Well, at least you aren't attacking military instillation and endangering the families of servicemen.

333 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:50:39pm

re: #323 palomino

The interesting thing is that even though whites only make up about 45% of the TX population, they're 60% of the state's electorate. That's largely because the black and Hispanic populations are disproportionately young (can't vote yet) while the white population is disproportionately old.

You don't need a PhD in math to see where this is headed: in a decade or two, TX is likely to become a competitive state as old white people die off and younger nonwhites become old enough to vote.

For fun, check out the number of TX Blacks and Hispanics that have no-vote felony convictions.

334 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:50:52pm

re: #332 Killgore Trout

Well, at least you aren't attacking military instillation and endangering the families of servicemen.

You mean like their new buddy BB?

335 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:51:24pm

re: #312 jamesfirecat

The problem Dark is that bigger issues trickle down Dark.

If the Republicans run someone crazy pants (and who aren't they running that are crazy pants at the moment?) people will run to the polls to vote against them and then stay to vote D on other issues also...

That's an 'if', James. There are sane GOP candidates, like Mitt Romney. And I will remind you that voters in my state are capable of cross-ballot voting. Last year Pat Quinn (D) was elected as Governor (he had previously stepped up from being vice-gov when Blago was impeached) but Mark Kirk (R) was elected Senator. In the end, it came down to people who didn't want a socon as governor (Bill Brady) but also wanted a non-crooked senator (the Dem contender had mob ties). So the GOP is entirely capable of of taking some additional legislature seats in my state, and I'll be doing my part to help them do just that.

336 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:51:47pm

re: #333 Decatur Deb

For fun, check out the number of TX Blacks and Hispanics that have no-vote felony convictions.


yeah, no kidding

337 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:52:05pm

re: #335 Dark_Falcon

There are sane GOP candidates, like Mitt Romney.

LOL

338 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:52:16pm

I don't give a f**k anymore, as soon as I get Mom and Dad's estate settled I am getting the hell out of here. I'm just way too tired of the cynical lies, I can't do this anymore, at least not right now...

I need to go start over, maybe southern Africa, maybe Indonesia, who knows?

I need to do something for myself again, help others with my skills, I need the ego boost.

339 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:52:33pm

re: #307 Dark_Falcon

Not true. The Dems got hammered in Illinois in 2010, and given the clueless budget Gov. Quinn put out, they've got a good chance of being hammered again. Any Illinois Dems who think they can relax are in for a rue awakening.

Apples and oranges. First, I'm talking about the prez election only. Obama won't lose IL, and doesn't really need to spend a lot of money there. But he will raise a lot of cash there to be spent in swing states.

Second, if this comes down to Dems being hammered on issues, then what difference would some more union money make? Didn't they have plenty of that in 2010?

340 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:52:41pm

re: #335 Dark_Falcon

That's an 'if', James. There are sane GOP candidates, like Mitt Romney. And I will remind you that voters in my state are capable of cross-ballot voting. Last year Pat Quinn (D) was elected as Governor (he had previously stepped up from being vice-gov when Blago was impeached) but Mark Kirk (R) was elected Senator. In the end, it came down to people who didn't want a socon as governor (Bill Brady) but also wanted a non-crooked senator (the Dem contender had mob ties). So the GOP is entirely capable of of taking some additional legislature seats in my state, and I'll be doing my part to help them do just that.

Too bad Romney will be ripped to shreds by the Christian tribalists who demand their own chieftan get the nod

341 Big Joe  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:53:07pm

re: #335 Dark_Falcon

That's an 'if', James. There are sane GOP candidates, like Mitt Romney. And I will remind you that voters in my state are capable of cross-ballot voting. Last year Pat Quinn (D) was elected as Governor (he had previously stepped up from being vice-gov when Blago was impeached) but Mark Kirk (R) was elected Senator. In the end, it came down to people who didn't want a socon as governor (Bill Brady) but also wanted a non-crooked senator (the Dem contender had mob ties). So the GOP is entirely capable of of taking some additional legislature seats in my state, and I'll be doing my part to help them do just that.

The problem with Mitt is the Bible Belt voters think of Mormons as a Cult with a capital C.

342 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:53:17pm

re: #338 ausador

I don't give a f**k anymore, as soon as I get Mom and Dad's estate settled I am getting the hell out of here. I'm just way too tired of the cynical lies, I can't do this anymore, at least not right now...

I need to go start over, maybe southern Africa, maybe Indonesia, who knows?

I need to do something for myself again, help others with my skills, I need the ego boost.

Move to Illinois.

343 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:53:22pm

re: #322 Gus 802

Now the braindead "watchers" are going to think I'm an anarchist. Dipshits.

Of course they are. All they can do is hate on someone like you, since they've lost the capacity for rational argument.

[waves to the Stalkers]

344 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:53:29pm

re: #302 jamesfirecat

///Why do we have some kind of government funded socialist army made up of government employees? If America wants to win wars it is going to need to start employing private citzens willing to fight for the highest bidder that's how you get real quality fighting men!

"America: We've Won All the Wars We Ever Fought"*

*except for the last 60 years

345 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:53:37pm

re: #334 Gus 802

You mean like their new buddy BB?

I'm surprised the guy is still walking free.

346 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:53:38pm

re: #333 Decatur Deb

For fun, check out the number of TX Blacks and Hispanics that have no-vote felony convictions.

Florida too.

347 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:53:46pm

re: #338 ausador

I don't give a f**k anymore, as soon as I get Mom and Dad's estate settled I am getting the hell out of here. I'm just way too tired of the cynical lies, I can't do this anymore, at least not right now...

I need to go start over, maybe southern Africa, maybe Indonesia, who knows?

I need to do something for myself again, help others with my skills, I need the ego boost.

Portland is strange enough that it may appear to be another country to you

348 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:53:59pm

re: #341 mracb

The problem with Mitt is the Bible Belt voters think of Mormons as a Cult with a capital C.

takes one to know one :D

349 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:54:03pm

re: #337 Lidane

LOL

Romney's only "sane" in comparison to the field he's currently sitting in. When you're sitting next to a guys like Huckabee and Pawlenty, saying that you don't think Obama is Kenyan makes you seem a lot more electable.

350 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:54:46pm

re: #346 moderatelyradicalliberal

Florida too.

"shhhhh! don't mention Florida"

"it's ok, i mentioned it once, but i think i got away with it"


/fawlty towers.

351 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:55:12pm

re: #335 Dark_Falcon

That's an 'if', James. There are sane GOP candidates, like Mitt Romney. And I will remind you that voters in my state are capable of cross-ballot voting. Last year Pat Quinn (D) was elected as Governor (he had previously stepped up from being vice-gov when Blago was impeached) but Mark Kirk (R) was elected Senator. In the end, it came down to people who didn't want a socon as governor (Bill Brady) but also wanted a non-crooked senator (the Dem contender had mob ties). So the GOP is entirely capable of of taking some additional legislature seats in my state, and I'll be doing my part to help them do just that.

Mitt Romney is a flip flopping Patrician From Massachusetts good luck with running that in a Presidential Election.

We Democrats tried it in 2004...

352 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:55:24pm

re: #337 Lidane

LOL

I know, right? DF probably couldn't even tell you what Mitt Romney believes. Hell, Mitt Romney doesn't even know what he believes. LOL!

353 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:55:39pm

re: #345 Killgore Trout

I'm surprised the guy is still walking free.

What's funny is the he's now managed to alienate himself from "Anonymous".

354 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:55:57pm

re: #349 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

He's quite the pander bear, though. I don't think he'd make it through the primaries.

355 Big Joe  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:56:07pm

re: #348 WindUpBird

takes one to know one :D

I try not do demean a persons' religious views. I shied away from going where you went.

356 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:56:07pm

re: #341 mracb

The problem with Mitt is the Bible Belt voters think of Mormons as a Cult with a capital C.

Bingo. The LDS is considered a cult by most evangelical christian apologists, and there is no way Mitt or anyone else is going to change that. It will be a problem, unless the christian right does a large about face and holds it's nose, and forgets all about the Mormon church for a while.

It's a major problem for any conservative GOP candidate if they profess a faith other than a mainstream christian denomination.

357 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:56:07pm

re: #351 jamesfirecat

Mitt Romney is a flip flopping Patrician From Massachusetts good luck with running that in a Presidential Election.

We Democrats tried it in 2004...

Especially with Romneycare hanging over his head. Plus, he's a Mormon, which means the fundies in the South won't vote for him.

358 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:56:23pm

re: #352 moderatelyradicalliberal

I know, right? DF probably couldn't even tell you what Mitt Romney believes. Hell, Mitt Romney doesn't even know what he believes. LOL!

He will, just as soon as he knows what the rest of the pack believes. Instead of a propeller, his bennie has a weather vane atop it.

359 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:56:23pm

re: #341 mracb

The problem with Mitt is the Bible Belt voters think of Mormons as a Cult with a capital C.

Thankfully, the primary is a national series of elections. So the southern vote can be outweighed. Also, Romney can counter attitudes like that with ads and by showing how well he'd do as president.

360 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:56:24pm

re: #351 jamesfirecat

Mitt Romney is a flip flopping Patrician From Massachusetts good luck with running that in a Presidential Election.

We Democrats tried it in 2004...

Zing. Congratulations - you win an internet.

It gets better -

A patrician flip flopper from Mass uncomfortable with the wave of public anger driving the base of his campaign to an ultimately doomed end.......

361 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:56:28pm

re: #338 ausador

I don't give a f**k anymore, as soon as I get Mom and Dad's estate settled I am getting the hell out of here. I'm just way too tired of the cynical lies, I can't do this anymore, at least not right now...

I need to go start over, maybe southern Africa, maybe Indonesia, who knows?

I need to do something for myself again, help others with my skills, I need the ego boost.

Take a rest, it's no better anywhere else.

Never Tire of the Road

Youtube Video
362 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:56:40pm

re: #349 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Romney's only "sane" in comparison to the field he's currently sitting in. When you're sitting next to a guys like Huckabee and Pawlenty, saying that you don't think Obama is Kenyan makes you seem a lot more electable.

I actually had no problem with his health care ideas

which of course is the thing he'll now lie about if he runs, and pretend he didn't do because the GOP sprayed their crazy all over HCR

363 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:56:55pm

re: #355 mracb

I try not do demean a persons' religious views. I shied away from going where you went.

It's common around here... don't be a spoiled sport... play along.

364 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:56:57pm

re: #357 Lidane

Especially with Romneycare hanging over his head. Plus, he's a Mormon, which means the fundies in the South won't vote for him.

And he puts out this metrosexual vibe you know.

365 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:57:20pm

re: #333 Decatur Deb

For fun, check out the number of TX Blacks and Hispanics that have no-vote felony convictions.

The gop will do anything they can to hold on there. But eventually the sheer numbers will overwhelm them. There's no doubting this; the only solution for gop long term is outreach, where they've actually gone in reverse, alienating nonwhites.

366 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:57:46pm

re: #357 Lidane

Especially with Romneycare hanging over his head. Plus, he's a Mormon, which means the fundies in the South won't vote for him.

He's already tried running away from that, screaming that Obama's idea was wrong because it's against states rights, dontchaknow.

It's hilarious, trying to watch him suddenly shed his RINO veneer, when it sticks to him like white on rice.

367 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:57:49pm

re: #351 jamesfirecat

Mitt Romney is a flip flopping Patrician From Massachusetts good luck with running that in a Presidential Election.

We Democrats tried it in 2004...

Mitt Romney's dad was governor of Michigan.

368 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:58:52pm

re: #359 Dark_Falcon

Thankfully, the primary is a national series of elections. So the southern vote can be outweighed. Also, Romney can counter attitudes like that with ads and by showing how well he'd do as president.

Dark... you don't win shit with out the southern vote, not when it comes to a candidate with a less than acceptable (in their eyes) religious affiliation.

369 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:59:08pm

re: #355 mracb

I try not do demean a persons' religious views. I shied away from going where you went.

It's more of my cynicism about anyone with religious beliefs calling anyone else a cult, everyone is a cult to someone else who is religious, especially so when various Christians are calling each other cultists

And Mormons are every bit as mainstream as any other widely practiced flavor of Christianity in America, if anything they're more American than any other

370 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:59:17pm

re: #353 Gus 802

What's funny is the he's now managed to alienate himself from "Anonymous".

...and everybody else. Even Crazy Pam turned on him after she learned about his plans to harass military member's families. Our stalkers are the only ones depraved enough to still give him a platform.

371 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:59:21pm

re: #335 Dark_Falcon

There are sane GOP candidates, like Mitt Romney.

mitt romney has the dubious distinction of being so obviously artifically manufactured that not only democrats but even the freepers call him a used car salesman

372 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 6:59:22pm

re: #367 Alouette

Mitt Romney's dad was governor of Michigan.

and?

373 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:00:22pm

re: #359 Dark_Falcon

Thankfully, the primary is a national series of elections. So the southern vote can be outweighed. Also, Romney can counter attitudes like that with ads and by showing how well he'd do as president.

You're right Mitt Romney can over come a lack of props with the religious right.

After all the socons are decreasing in power and the new rising star of the right is the Tea Party and we all know how well Mittens... gets... along... with the... tea party.... (cue awkward yanking at ones collar)

374 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:00:39pm

re: #372 recusancy

and?

that's what we need, another dynasty political family in the white house, just more kings and queens and kingdoms

One of my favorite things about Obama is he's NOT part of a dynasty :P

375 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:00:51pm

re: #371 engineer dog

mitt romney has the dubious distinction of being so obviously artifically manufactured that not only democrats but even the freepers call him a used car salesman

He's also a former banker.

376 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:00:54pm

re: #335 Dark_Falcon

That's an 'if', James. There are sane GOP candidates, like Mitt Romney. And I will remind you that voters in my state are capable of cross-ballot voting. Last year Pat Quinn (D) was elected as Governor (he had previously stepped up from being vice-gov when Blago was impeached) but Mark Kirk (R) was elected Senator. In the end, it came down to people who didn't want a socon as governor (Bill Brady) but also wanted a non-crooked senator (the Dem contender had mob ties). So the GOP is entirely capable of of taking some additional legislature seats in my state, and I'll be doing my part to help them do just that.

Your party is going off the rails when you have to defensively make statements like, "There are sane gop candidates." Shouldn't the default position for the gop be that their candidates are not insane? And yet there's so much evidence that insanity is prevalent in the gop across the country. Places like IL, ME, MA with some sane gopers are now anomalies.

377 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:01:11pm

re: #374 WindUpBird

that's what we need, another dynasty political family in the white house, just more kings and queens and kingdoms

One of my favorite things about Obama is he's NOT part of a dynasty :P

Are we sure his father wasn't secretly a Kenyan Prince?

378 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:01:19pm

re: #376 palomino

Your party is going off the rails when you have to defensively make statements like, "There are sane gop candidates." Shouldn't the default position for the gop be that their candidates are not insane? And yet there's so much evidence that insanity is prevalent in the gop across the country. Places like IL, ME, MA with some sane gopers are now anomalies.

I like having a party that is mostly sane! it's cool!

379 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:01:44pm

re: #377 jamesfirecat

Are we sure his father wasn't secretly a Kenyan Prince?

McDowell's!

380 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:01:54pm

re: #373 jamesfirecat

You're right Mitt Romney can over come a lack of props with the religious right.

After all the socons are decreasing in power and the new rising star of the right is the Tea Party and we all know how well Mittens... gets... along... with the... tea party... (cue awkward yanking at ones collar)

A man so uncomfortable with public displays of emotion will not be a teaparty favourite.

They need their candidates in the raw and unfiltered (i.e, completely unelectable on a national/statewide level)

381 blueraven  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:01:55pm

re: #338 ausador

I don't give a f**k anymore, as soon as I get Mom and Dad's estate settled I am getting the hell out of here. I'm just way too tired of the cynical lies, I can't do this anymore, at least not right now...

I need to go start over, maybe southern Africa, maybe Indonesia, who knows?

I need to do something for myself again, help others with my skills, I need the ego boost.

Maybe you should look into some things like Americorp or other such agencys, if you want to get outside of yourself and help others at the same time. If you are so inclined, and are in a position to do so of course.

382 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:02:17pm

re: #377 jamesfirecat

Are we sure his father wasn't secretly a Kenyan Prince?

Maybe of the British colonial variety. Who knows?

///

383 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:02:24pm

The GOP's in the dubious position of having a pack of candidates who could win the primaries but will bomb in the actual election, with one or two that could win the election but will be eviscerated in the primaries.

Hence the effort to tear down the DNC's voter base, by hook and by crook.

384 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:02:44pm

re: #370 Killgore Trout

...and everybody else. Even Crazy Pam turned on him after she learned about his plans to harass military member's families. Our stalkers are the only ones depraved enough to still give him a platform.

They're deranged. Those idiots put up some dopey blog post about one stupid flying comment I made regarding Zionism (in which I really didn't state how I felt about it one way or the other) and meanwhile they've opened up that forum for Barrett Brown who would sell Israel up the river six ways to Sunday. They're fucking (insert r-word here). One dumb comment and they blog it and that some freak Tweets it.

385 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:02:48pm

Live stream from Madison
[Link: www.livestream.com...]

386 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:03:20pm

re: #359 Dark_Falcon

Thankfully, the primary is a national series of elections. So the southern vote can be outweighed. Also, Romney can counter attitudes like that with ads and by showing how well he'd do as president.

Ads about what? Romneycare and the Utah Winter Olympics? His back peddling and flip flopping on abortion and gay rights? Also, there is no region that outweights the South in GOP politics. Face it. Romney has the charm, warmth, and looks of a used car salesman and he will never, ever be president. I'll bet you can't even say you like him as a person. Nobody can tell who he is as a person, with his disingenuous, phony ass.

387 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:03:28pm

bluecheddar1 blue cheddar

RT @punditnation: Since this thing will end up in court, Walker's also creating jobs for lawyers. #wiunion

388 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:03:32pm

G'night everyone.

Maybe hearing about a job tomorrow- while on training for my fall back april gig.

Oh well.

Pleasant dreams all.

389 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:03:39pm

re: #384 Gus 802

They're deranged. Those idiots put up some dopey blog post about one stupid flying comment I made regarding Zionism (in which I really didn't state how I felt about it one way or the other) and meanwhile they've opened up that forum for Barrett Brown who would sell Israel up the river six ways to Sunday. They're fucking (insert r-word here). One dumb comment and they blog it and that some freak Tweets it.

What did you say regarding Zionism?

390 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:03:52pm

re: #385 jaunte

Live stream from Madison
[Link: www.livestream.com...]

The chant of "Shame! Shame! Shame!" is echoing off the walls.

391 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:04:16pm

re: #381 blueraven

Maybe you should look into some things like Americorp or other such agencys, if you want to get outside of yourself and help others at the same time. If you are so inclined, and are in a position to do so of course.

The bastards have targeted Americorps for elimination--perhaps the most evil of their intents. The kids were spectacular.

392 morrisab  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:04:29pm

re: #76 Gus 802

Strike!

My personal and apparently more anarchist than I realized feelings are this: big giant strike. All the teachers and professors. Fire every teacher and professor in the Univ of Wisconsin system!

Then go try to find replacements. Go ahead... I'll wait. Especially those engineers and doctors and physicists. Those guys are a dime a dozen. They can't wait to take university jobs... Oh, what? Those jobs pay a lot less than their current jobs? Okay, well, I'll still be over here. Waiting.

Oh, the accreditation boards won't wait, though. In fact, you're going to lose accreditation in at least a third of your programs. Maybe even more. And if you lose too much accreditation too fast, oops, guess what? You're no longer a state university! Bye bye Big Ten! Bye bye endowments! Bye bye athletic program donations and lucrative media contracts. Have fun in your new, union less, and university-less, state.

394 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:05:07pm

re: #359 Dark_Falcon

Thankfully, the primary is a national series of elections. So the southern vote can be outweighed. Also, Romney can counter attitudes like that with ads and by showing how well he'd do as president.

Are you kidding? The South IS the gop. You're not gonna have a nominee who's unpopular with your base.

395 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:05:09pm

re: #387 Stanley Sea

bluecheddar1 blue cheddar

RT @punditnation: Since this thing will end up in court, Walker's also creating jobs for lawyers. #wiunion

Hey, it's a jobs creation bill. If things work out right, there will be 8 jobs open in the Wisconsin Senate between now and 2013.

396 blueraven  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:05:20pm

re: #391 Decatur Deb

The bastards have targeted Americorps for elimination--perhaps the most evil of their intents. The kids were spectacular.

That is evil!

397 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:05:36pm

re: #389 Walter L. Newton

What did you say regarding Zionism?

That people have a right to oppose it if they wish. But in a very round about way. This is a democracy you know. 1st Amendment rights and all that jazz. Freedom of speech. There's no right to be not offended by people's beliefs. There's a billion people out there that don't agree with everything I agree with.

398 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:06:27pm

I need a drink.

399 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:06:40pm

re: #397 Gus 802

That people have a right to oppose it if they wish. But in a very round about way. This is a democracy you know. 1st Amendment rights and all that jazz. Freedom of speech. There's no right to be not offended by people's beliefs. There's a billion people out there that don't agree with everything I agree with.

Hey man, fuck you and your opinion!

///

400 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:06:48pm

re: #383 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

The GOP's in the dubious position of having a pack of candidates who could win the primaries but will bomb in the actual election, with one or two that could win the election but will be eviscerated in the primaries.

Hence the effort to tear down the DNC's voter base, by hook and by crook.

I'd say Tim Pawlenty could also do well in the general election. Heck, he might even be able to win Minnesota, which would really knock the Dems for a loop. Plus he's socially conservative, but not insane or southern, so he'd be harder to chactiture.

401 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:07:36pm

re: #384 Gus 802

Ignore them, and you deprive them of oxygen.

402 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:07:49pm

re: #399 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Hey man, fuck you and your opinion!

///

Right. I was just thinking and would add, just because someone has an opinion doesn't mean they're going to get their way either.

403 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:08:01pm

re: #400 Dark_Falcon

I'd say Tim Pawlenty could also do well in the general election. Heck, he might even be able to win Minnesota, which would really knock the Dems for a loop. Plus he's socially conservative, but not insane or southern, so he'd be harder to chactiture.

Pawlenty is a bigot and a creationist.

404 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:08:22pm

re: #384 Gus 802

Ignore them, and you deprive them of oxygen.

Thanks. I didn't go there but saw it flash by on Twitter.

405 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:08:47pm

re: #393 Buck

I repeat, this law gives WI employees more bargaining rights than federal workers.

Glad to see you, Buck. It was getting a bit lonely for me.

406 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:09:15pm

re: #403 recusancy

Pawlenty is a bigot and a creationist.

Sure, but will that help him in the general election?

407 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:09:55pm

re: #400 Dark_Falcon

I'd say Tim Pawlenty could also do well in the general election.

LOL! Pawlenty is so boring that he went into the 2008 RNC expecting to be the VP nominee, since he'd been carefully vetted for weeks, only to be cast aside for Caribou Barbie.

The guy blends into the furniture. He's about as much of a milquetoast as Dukakis was.

Plus he's socially conservative, but not insane or southern, so he'd be harder to chactiture.

He's a creationist nutjob who's spent the last couple of years pandering to the religious whackjobs and fundamentalists bigots.

408 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:10:06pm

He was also co-founder and head of the spin-off company Bain Capital, a private equity investment firm which became highly profitable and one of the largest such firms in the nation

maybe mitt will use his business experience to show us how to invest our tax money in the most profitable up and coming countries

why govern when you can invest?

409 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:10:11pm

re: #385 jaunte

Live stream from Madison
[Link: www.livestream.com...]

Thank you for this.

The people.

410 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:10:54pm

re: #366 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

He's already tried running away from that, screaming that Obama's idea was wrong because it's against states rights, dontchaknow.

It's hilarious, trying to watch him suddenly shed his RINO veneer, when it sticks to him like white on rice.

Except he's on tape saying Romneycare should be a national model.

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Romney is now keen on distinguishing his state’s mandate from federal reform, but in October of 2009, he urged Democrats to use the Massachusetts law as a model to expand coverage:

ROMNEY: We have found that we can get everybody insured without breaking the bank and without a public option…Massachusetts is a model for getting everybody insured in a way that doesn’t break the bank, doesn’t put the government in the driver’s seat and allows people to own their own insurance policies and not to have to worry about losing coverage. That’s what Massachusetts did.”

At that point, the former Massachusetts governor was busy attacking the public option and didn’t give too much thought to distancing himself from the mandate, which some national Republicans still supported. He berated Democrats for not using Massachusetts as a model. They did, and now he’s pretending that they didn’t.

411 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:11:05pm

rainydaygoods Mary-Heather Cogar
by knitmomwi

I just - what? WHAT? RT @fbihop: Scott Walker appointee says protests are the "holocaust" #wiunion [Link: bit.ly...]

412 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:11:10pm

re: #393 Buck

Before I respond to you, my Professor and I were chatting after class today and he said something that caused things to click in my head. He made a statement that Left and Right don't really work in the United States anymore. We are now operating owith a Modernist vs. Traditionalist politics. The moment I heard this, I thought of the Middle East. Our political culture is now similar to many Middle East nations. This has brought me to the conclusion that the Republicans are basically a Christian version of the Muslim Brotherhood, or worse.

And to you Buck, quit spewing your lies. Oh, and I honestly want to say that your hero Reagan was race-baiting pig who greatly harmed the US. I've completely had it with the right.

413 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:11:14pm

re: #400 Dark_Falcon

I'd say Tim Pawlenty could also do well in the general election. Heck, he might even be able to win Minnesota, which would really knock the Dems for a loop. Plus he's socially conservative, but not insane or southern, so he'd be harder to chactiture.

Tim Pawlenty carries far less baggage than Newt, Sarah, Mitt, Haley, et al. But at some point he has to catch fire with the base in order to get the nod. Hard to do when your lack of charisma makes all the other candidates magnetic by comparison.

414 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:11:42pm

Walker appointee describes Wisconsin Capitol protests as a "holocaust:"
[Link: www.wlsam.com...]

415 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:12:24pm

re: #414 jaunte

Walker appointee describes Wisconsin Capitol protests as a "holocaust:"
[Link: www.wlsam.com...]

Gee. That's not insane hyperbole at all. What a douche.

416 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:12:43pm

re: #393 Buck

I repeat, this law gives WI employees more bargaining rights than federal workers.

omg.

You have a contrarian love lust.

417 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:12:53pm

re: #412 ProLifeLiberal

And to you Buck, quit spewing your lies. Oh, and I honestly want to say that your hero Reagan was race-baiting pig who greatly harmed the US. I've completely had it with the right.

And yet it was a Democrat that took away the federal workers right to collectively bargain... how about that?

418 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:13:07pm

re: #415 Lidane

Magnified by his walkback:

After his speech Brancel told WKOW-TV his use of the word 'holocaust' was "a bad word." He says he should have said "total confusion in the Capitol."
419 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:13:22pm

re: #410 moderatelyradicalliberal

Except he's on tape saying Romneycare should be a national model.

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Yeah, the man's going to have a fun time trying to explain why his being no different than Obama somehow makes him different from Obama.

I got plenty of popcorn and a DVR.

420 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:13:26pm

re: #393 Buck

I repeat, this law gives WI employees more bargaining rights than federal workers.

"So other people have it worse" is not an excuse to take away other people's rights.

In fact... give me a moment...

Person A has it worse than you so the government should see to it that the two of you are balanced out... I think I've heard of this philosophy somewhere before but I can't recall what it is called....

421 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:13:41pm

oooh! Look at those scary evil teachers.

Unbelievable.

422 Digital Display  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:13:41pm

This is my opinion..
I was a public sector union member for the feds for 20 years...I will always support the unions..period..Amen
What pisses me the hell off is every time one side disagrees with the other whether unions or any Political issue at all..The first weapon some people pull out is comparisons to Hitler.. I'm so sick of that..Nobody is drug into the streets and shot or hung or gassed..
I think it is an immature augment to make and it really bothers me..
GO UNIONS!

423 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:14:20pm

re: #422 HoosierHoops

This is my opinion..
I was a public sector union member for the feds for 20 years...I will always support the unions..period..Amen
What pisses me the hell off is every time one side disagrees with the other whether unions or any Political issue at all..The first weapon some people pull out is comparisons to Hitler.. I'm so sick of that..Nobody is drug into the streets and shot or hung or gassed..
I think it is an immature augment to make and it really bothers me..
GO UNIONS!

Hitler... Hitler... Hitler... Hitler... Hitler... Hitler...Hitler...

424 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:14:44pm

re: #414 jaunte

Walker appointee describes Wisconsin Capitol protests as a "holocaust:"
[Link: www.wlsam.com...]

GODWIN FAIL!

425 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:14:49pm

re: #421 Stanley Sea

oooh! Look at those scary evil teachers.

Unbelievable.

But. But. They teach evil things to children like science and evolution and stuff. And things about Manifest Destiny and how the Americans killed a lot of Indians when they invaded North America.

//

426 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:15:25pm

re: #424 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

GODWIN FAIL!

Vocabulary fail.

427 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:15:37pm

re: #424 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

GODWIN FAIL!

No Godwins around here... "This has brought me to the conclusion that the Republicans are basically a Christian version of the Muslim Brotherhood, or worse."

428 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:15:38pm

re: #420 jamesfirecat

"So other people have it worse" is not an excuse to take away other people's rights.

In fact... give me a moment...

Person A has it worse than you so the government should see to it that the two of you are balanced out... I think I've heard of this philosophy somewhere before but I can't recall what it is called...

I can help you with that, comrade. I hear Siberia is nice this time of year.

///

429 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:15:41pm

re: #420 jamesfirecat

"So other people have it worse" is not an excuse to take away other people's rights.

In fact... give me a moment...

Person A has it worse than you so the government should see to it that the two of you are balanced out... I think I've heard of this philosophy somewhere before but I can't recall what it is called...

They don't have it worse!!!!! That is just false. It is not taking away people god given rights.... it is perfectly ok to place limits on the collective bargaining process. It is done all the time.

430 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:15:51pm

re: #407 Lidane

LOL! Pawlenty is so boring that he went into the 2008 RNC expecting to be the VP nominee, since he'd been carefully vetted for weeks, only to be cast aside for Caribou Barbie.

The guy blends into the furniture. He's about as much of a milquetoast as Dukakis was.

He's a creationist nutjob who's spent the last couple of years pandering to the religious whackjobs and fundamentalists bigots.

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

431 prairiefire  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:15:51pm

re: #338 ausadorI need to do something for myself again, help others with my skills, I need the ego boost.

Costa Rica or the Dominican Republic would be nice.

432 Big Joe  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:15:53pm

re: #422 HoosierHoops

This is my opinion..
I was a public sector union member for the feds for 20 years...I will always support the unions..period..Amen
What pisses me the hell off is every time one side disagrees with the other whether unions or any Political issue at all..The first weapon some people pull out is comparisons to Hitler.. I'm so sick of that..Nobody is drug into the streets and shot or hung or gassed..
I think it is an immature augment to make and it really bothers me..
GO UNIONS!

well nobody on the right, anhyway.
Image: Head-stomp.jpg

433 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:16:13pm

re: #427 Walter L. Newton

No Godwins around here... "This has brought me to the conclusion that the Republicans are basically a Christian version of the Muslim Brotherhood, or worse."

I thought Pam Geller said that.

434 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:16:30pm

re: #426 Decatur Deb

Vocabulary fail.

"I picked the wrong week to quit sniffin' glue."

/

435 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:16:40pm

re: #427 Walter L. Newton

No Godwins around here... "This has brought me to the conclusion that the Republicans are basically a Christian version of the Muslim Brotherhood, or worse."

Who said that.

436 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:16:45pm

CPAC is teh binz invaded by teh Moozlim Brotherhood!!11ty

437 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:16:52pm

Mudflats Mudflats

RT @MikeElk: Madison Police & Dane County Sheriff have refused 2 remove protesters, Walker has called in State Troopers 2 do job #wiunion

438 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:17:08pm

re: #437 Stanley Sea

Mudflats Mudflats

RT @MikeElk: Madison Police & Dane County Sheriff have refused 2 remove protesters, Walker has called in State Troopers 2 do job #wiunion

hopefully twitter rumor.

439 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:17:13pm

re: #393 Buck

I repeat, this law gives WI employees more bargaining rights than federal workers.

this law makes wi employees helpless in the face of the state government

why are conservatives always in favor of increasing the power of government?

440 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:17:38pm

re: #433 Gus 802

I thought Pam Geller said that.

I think she did.
[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

441 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:17:44pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

Not if the Republicans shut down the government over Planned Parenthood.

Give the GOP time. They're well on track to shooting themselves in the foot in 2012.

442 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:17:45pm

re: #361 Decatur Deb

Not expecting anything to be better, hell considering the places I am considering going it is almost guaranteed to be worse. I also stand a small chance of getting killed just for being an American, regardless of my religious beliefs.

What it will be is something different and interesting, that is pretty much all I am looking for.

443 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:18:03pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

He'll be up against a corporatist centrist who saved American capitalism just like FDR did.

444 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:18:03pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

Social issues better be off the table... that is a worthless millstone on the GOP neck. If they are really interested in fiscal issues and small government, they better get out of the business of worrying about gay marriages, what I do in the bedroom, and whether or not I believe in the magic man in the sky.

445 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:18:19pm

re: #429 Buck

They don't have it worse!!! That is just false. It is not taking away people god given rights... it is perfectly ok to place limits on the collective bargaining process. It is done all the time.

Collective bargaining should be a 'god given" right in my book and NOTHING you can say will change my mind on the issue Buck.

446 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:18:30pm

re: #440 jaunte

I think she did.
[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

They've been saying the MB has invaded the WH for years now. And the Pentagon. Started in the mid 00s. Wingnuts were first! Woot!

447 McSpiff  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:18:46pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

Socialist? Really? Your mask is slipping D_F...

448 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:18:55pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

obama qualifies as a socialist less than nixon or eisenhower

449 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:19:00pm

re: #435 Dark_Falcon

Who said that.

re: #433 Gus 802

I thought Pam Geller said that.

re: #412 ProLifeLiberal

450 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:19:01pm

re: #434 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"I picked the wrong week to quit sniffin' glue."

/

I picked the wrong week to stop dropping acid...

451 albusteve  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:19:43pm

re: #439 engineer dog

this law makes wi employees helpless in the face of the state government

why are conservatives always in favor of increasing the power of government?

they are not conservatives...they, and you just use that handle
but, no big deal, call them whatever you want

452 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:19:50pm

re: #448 engineer dog

obama qualifies as a socialist less than nixon or eisenhower

Seriously. Nixon was more of a socialist than Obama has been.

453 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:19:55pm

re: #442 ausador

Not expecting anything to be better, hell considering the places I am considering going it is almost guaranteed to be worse. I also stand a small chance of getting killed just for being an American, regardless of my religious beliefs.

What it will be is something different and interesting, that is pretty much all I am looking for.

Get a hammer, go down to Habitat for a year of weekends. When you're done there will be a couple real houses standing there.

454 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:20:00pm

re: #412 ProLifeLiberal

Before I respond to you, my Professor and I were chatting after class today and he said something that caused things to click in my head. He made a statement that Left and Right don't really work in the United States anymore. We are now operating owith a Modernist vs. Traditionalist politics. The moment I heard this, I thought of the Middle East. Our political culture is now similar to many Middle East nations. This has brought me to the conclusion that the Republicans are basically a Christian version of the Muslim Brotherhood, or worse.

And to you Buck, quit spewing your lies. Oh, and I honestly want to say that your hero Reagan was race-baiting pig who greatly harmed the US. I've completely had it with the right.

Not so sure about comparisons to the ME, but yes, we have a Two Americas right now (just not the one that John Edwards, RIP, talked about).

One is predominantly urban, secular, diverse and doesn't see govt as intrinsically evil. The other is predominantly rural, white, very religious and suspicious of modernity in general. It's a culture war, and 2012 is likely to be its ugliest year yet.

455 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:20:14pm

re: #435 Dark_Falcon

I said it. I'll admit to it. They want to force religion into politics. When it comes to economics, they seem to be very heavily into putting us back into the 1800's. I've had it with the actions of the Republican Party.

456 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:20:19pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

The yellow journalism meme. SOCIALIST! I'm actually laughing because it's so bizarre.

457 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:21:00pm

re: #441 Lidane

Not if the Republicans shut down the government over Planned Parenthood.

Give the GOP time. They're well on track to shooting themselves in the foot in 2012.

It won't be about Planned Parenthood. if there's a shutdown, it'll be because the Dems insist on a bloated budget. So far, both sides are still talking, so I'm hopeful on the Congress front.

458 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:21:06pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

459 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:21:16pm

re: #400 Dark_Falcon

I'd say Tim Pawlenty could also do well in the general election. Heck, he might even be able to win Minnesota, which would really knock the Dems for a loop. Plus he's socially conservative, but not insane or southern, so he'd be harder to chactiture.

LOL! T-Paw? Or should I say the Notorious T-Paw-T? Are you kidding? If by "do well" you mean at least 40% of the country will vote GOP no matter what, then I guess so. Have you seen his new manly man ranting and raving he's been doing lately to shed his boring dull man image? It's comedy gold, he's going all out trying to make a caricature of a fiery teabagger. He knows he can't win being himself. He couldn't even win his home state, he's so lame. Romney is your John Kerry and Pawlenty is your Al Gore! Oh, you are too funny tonight and I and I really needed the laughs.

460 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:22:06pm

re: #457 Dark_Falcon

You honestly think the GOP cares about the budget? LOL!

They haven't cared about fiscal issues in decades. Keep dreaming.

461 McSpiff  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:22:08pm

re: #457 Dark_Falcon

It won't be about Planned Parenthood. if there's a shutdown, it'll be because the Dems insist on a bloated budget. So far, both sides are still talking, so I'm hopeful on the Congress front.

Bloated being a budget with anything other than war spending and tax cuts, of course.

462 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:22:19pm

re: #459 moderatelyradicalliberal

Pawlenty is your Al Gore!

LOCKBOX!

463 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:22:37pm

re: #338 ausador

I don't give a f**k anymore, as soon as I get Mom and Dad's estate settled I am getting the hell out of here. I'm just way too tired of the cynical lies, I can't do this anymore, at least not right now...

I need to go start over, maybe southern Africa, maybe Indonesia, who knows?

I need to do something for myself again, help others with my skills, I need the ego boost.

I and my spouse are looking seriously at Canada or France.

464 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:22:43pm

re: #457 Dark_Falcon

It won't be about Planned Parenthood. if there's a shutdown, it'll be because the Dems insist on a bloated budget. So far, both sides are still talking, so I'm hopeful on the Congress front.

I think Reagan proved that deficits don't matter...

465 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:22:51pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

Now you sound like the wingnuts you pretend to detest. Obama's no more a socialist than any other moderate in the Democratic Party. Or Mitt Romney. Or Richard Nixon for that matter.

466 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:23:00pm

This is our house!

467 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:23:01pm

re: #456 Stanley Sea

The yellow journalism meme. SOCIALIST! I'm actually laughing because it's so bizarre.

I mostly used 'socialist' to highlight how easily counter-charges can be made. Mud got throw at Pawlenty, so I threw some back.

468 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:23:01pm

It is funny that people here are supporting the group doing the most undemocratic thing.

This bill is designed to SAVE MONEY for the budget of WI. In the exact same way as Jimmy Carter did all those years ago.

469 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:23:16pm

re: #439 engineer dog

this law makes wi employees helpless in the face of the state government

why are conservatives always in favor of increasing the power of government?

not true

470 Big Joe  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:23:52pm

I've got to get my Dark Shadows fix for the evening. I may be back. You've all been at the top of your game today. It's been a good read for me.

471 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:23:53pm

re: #459 moderatelyradicalliberal

Romney is your John Kerry and Pawlenty is your Al Gore!

Except that Kerry is more personable and sincere than Romney can manage to be, and Al Gore is self-aware enough to make fun of himself. Pawlenty? Not so much.

472 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:23:56pm

re: #460 Lidane

You honestly think the GOP cares about the budget? LOL!

They haven't cared about fiscal issues in decades. Keep dreaming.

Then what do you call the last election?

473 McSpiff  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:24:21pm

re: #468 Buck

It is funny that people here are supporting the group doing the most undemocratic thing.

This bill is designed to SAVE MONEY for the budget of WI. In the exact same way as Jimmy Carter did all those years ago.

So its a fiscal bill and therefore unconstitutional.

Just wait till morning, you'll have updated talking points by then. I'm sure you'll look slightly less stupid with those.

474 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:24:31pm

re: #468 Buck

Except that this bill IS SEPARATE FROM the budget. The Republicans stripped all fiscal issues from it before voting.

Try again.

475 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:24:42pm

re: #468 Buck

It is funny that people here are supporting the group doing the most undemocratic thing.

This bill is designed to SAVE MONEY for the budget of WI. In the exact same way as Jimmy Carter did all those years ago.

Yeah, the Continental Army revolting against the British was rather undemocratic wasn't it? Of course that's not the same but what's undemocratic about a street demonstration?

476 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:24:46pm

re: #413 palomino

Tim Pawlenty carries far less baggage than Newt, Sarah, Mitt, Haley, et al. But at some point he has to catch fire with the base in order to get the nod. Hard to do when your lack of charisma makes all the other candidates magnetic by comparison.

Oh don't worry he's been yelling a lot until the veins in his neck pop so I'm sure that will help him catch on fire or something.

"Mr. President stop apologzing!!111!!!" LOL! He's so lame. Bless his heart.

477 Spocomptonite  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:24:47pm

re: #422 HoosierHoops

This is my opinion..
I was a public sector union member for the feds for 20 years...I will always support the unions..period..Amen
What pisses me the hell off is every time one side disagrees with the other whether unions or any Political issue at all..The first weapon some people pull out is comparisons to Hitler.. I'm so sick of that..Nobody is drug into the streets and shot or hung or gassed..
I think it is an immature augment to make and it really bothers me..
GO UNIONS!

At this rate, Future Godwin's Law will be excessive and hyperbolic comparisons to Walker.

478 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:25:01pm

re: #468 Buck

It is funny that people here are supporting the group doing the most undemocratic thing.

This bill is designed to SAVE MONEY for the budget of WI. In the exact same way as Jimmy Carter did all those years ago.

You are so uneducated. All you read/follow are the talking points of the right. There have been many many many thoughtful, sourced, articles directly disproving your statement. You are way to wrapped in your ideology. GAH

479 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:25:13pm

re: #439 engineer dog

this law makes wi employees helpless in the face of the state government

why are conservatives always in favor of increasing the power of government?

re: #469 Buck

not true

because?

480 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:25:45pm

re: #457 Dark_Falcon

It won't be about Planned Parenthood. if there's a shutdown, it'll be because the Dems insist on a bloated budget. So far, both sides are still talking, so I'm hopeful on the Congress front.

The GOP has no problem with a bloated budget, they just want it to be bloated with things they support. Tax breaks for oil companies? Funding for NASCAR and NHRA? Beats helping the poor and sick any day!

/

481 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:25:50pm

re: #472 Dark_Falcon

Then what do you call the last election?

Another stab at culture war and kicking the shit out the faggots, unions and baby killing abortionists, by all appearances.

482 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:25:51pm

re: #472 Dark_Falcon

Then what do you call the last election?

delusional

USA USA USA

483 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:25:55pm

re: #467 Dark_Falcon

I mostly used 'socialist' to highlight how easily counter-charges can be made. Mud got throw at Pawlenty, so I threw some back.

Pawlenty is an actual bigot and an actual creationist. Obama is not an actual socialist.

484 freetoken  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:25:55pm

re: #448 engineer dog

obama qualifies as a socialist less than nixon or eisenhower

Indeed.

Eisenhower established that the federal government is responsible for transportation and energy.

Nixon established that the federal government is responsible for the environment, economic activity (especially prices/inflation).

Obama? The most "socialist" thing he's done so far is to increase the number of customers for health insurance companies. Some "socialist."

485 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:26:08pm

re: #338 ausador

I don't give a f**k anymore, as soon as I get Mom and Dad's estate settled I am getting the hell out of here. I'm just way too tired of the cynical lies, I can't do this anymore, at least not right now...

I need to go start over, maybe southern Africa, maybe Indonesia, who knows?

I need to do something for myself again, help others with my skills, I need the ego boost.

Go to Spain, go to Italy, go to Ireland. Go to Israel, Australia and Japan.

You spent years caring for your feeble, helpless parents, and from what I understand it must have been extremely difficult and physically and emotionally exhausting.

Now go and live for yourself.

486 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:26:12pm

re: #475 Gus 802

Yeah, the Continental Army revolting against the British was rather undemocratic wasn't it? Of course that's not the same but what's undemocratic about a street demonstration?

If it's a protest, then they're nothing wrong. But when they turn to blocking traffic and trying to shut down a city, things change.

487 avanti  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:26:26pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

Don't confuse liberalism with socialism, FDR was far more liberal than Obama. Obama is pretty much a middle of the road leftie. BTW, don't count on the economy being bad much longer, the recovery has started.

488 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:26:54pm

re: #467 Dark_Falcon

I mostly used 'socialist' to highlight how easily counter-charges can be made. Mud got throw at Pawlenty, so I threw some back.

But Pawlenty IS a creationist. And no one here called him a fascist.

What's next? You gonna start talking about Kenya and birth certificates? You're only one step away.

489 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:26:59pm

re: #472 Dark_Falcon

Then what do you call the last election?

A repeat of Clinton's first term. The Dems lost big in 1994. The Republicans promptly overreached on social issues and also shut down the government in a pathetic attempt to humiliate the POTUS, and they lost badly in 1996.

At the rate the GOP is going, it's going to be 1996 all over again.

490 McSpiff  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:27:04pm

re: #467 Dark_Falcon

I mostly used 'socialist' to highlight how easily counter-charges can be made. Mud got throw at Pawlenty, so I threw some back.

Heh I love that you admit you've run out of valid points, and have resorted to lying.

491 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:27:04pm

re: #486 Dark_Falcon

If it's a protest, then they're nothing wrong. But when they turn to blocking traffic and trying to shut down a city, things change.

Good. About fucking time.

492 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:27:45pm

news3jessica Jessica Arp

DOA Spokesman with correction: Reports of broken windows and doors MAY NOT be true. He walked around bldg, didnt see broken glass outside.

Be sure to alert Fox News.

493 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:27:49pm

re: #467 Dark_Falcon

I mostly used 'socialist' to highlight how easily counter-charges can be made. Mud got throw at Pawlenty, so I threw some back.

Because nothing will make us take you seriously like pointless Tu quoques!

STEP UP YOUR GAME DARK!

494 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:28:16pm

re: #482 Stanley Sea

delusional

USA USA USA

oog. I'd call it a desire by the public to start getting our fiscal house in order.

495 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:28:26pm

It's a mistake on the Republicans' part to assume that all Wisconsin state employees must always be Wisconsin state employees no matter what the rewards offered them.

496 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:28:34pm

daveweigel daveweigel

RT @MikeElk: Mayor of Madison Dave Cieslewicz among protesters currently occupying the Capitol #wiunion

497 freetoken  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:28:54pm

re: #472 Dark_Falcon

Then what do you call the last election?

A mid-term election in which it has been shown the turnout of younger voters declined substantially from the 2008 election, while the turnout of older voters did not. This swung many close congressional districts, and that is how the GOP took the House.

498 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:29:07pm

re: #445 jamesfirecat

Collective bargaining should be a 'god given" right in my book and NOTHING you can say will change my mind on the issue Buck.

First of all this bill does not take away the collective bargaining rights of the teachers, so you can breath a sigh of relief. It only limits it.

and many workers, including federal works don't have it at ALL, and don't suffer.

499 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:29:20pm

re: #472 Dark_Falcon

Then what do you call the last election?

A midterm. The results of which don't prove anything regarding what the GOP really cares about.

They've spent decades playing the part of fiscal conservatives, and delivering the exact opposite. Why would this time be different?

500 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:29:21pm

re: #488 palomino

But Pawlenty IS a creationist. And no one here called him a fascist.

What's next? You gonna start talking about Kenya and birth certificates? You're only one step away.

Horseshit. I've never been a nirther, nor will I ever be one.

501 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:29:28pm

re: #494 Dark_Falcon

oog. I'd call it a desire by the public to start getting our fiscal multi national corporate fellating house in order.

New and improved!

502 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:29:50pm

re: #479 engineer dog

re: #439 engineer dog

this law makes wi employees helpless in the face of the state government

why are conservatives always in favor of increasing the power of government?

because?

Well, I read the bill, and that is not in it.....???

503 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:29:50pm

re: #500 Dark_Falcon

Horseshit. I've never been a nirther, nor will I ever be one.

I give you 6 months.

504 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:29:59pm

re: #494 Dark_Falcon

oog. I'd call it a desire by the public to start getting our fiscal house in order.

This has nothing AT ALL to do with fiscal responsibility. Nothing. Please read some of the things posted here. We are not blind partisans, I really trust that we learn, and adjust.

Unless our idiology gets in the way.

505 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:30:11pm

re: #137 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."

- Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto.

And he was right...

506 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:30:12pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

Hmm, I seem to recall republicans getting into office on the premise that they were going to fix something or another...

507 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:30:18pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

Second place for who? At this point I don't think I would vote for an anti-choice candidate even if they were a Democrat. The social issues will be front and center and not just for the socons.

508 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:30:21pm

re: #437 Stanley Sea

Mudflats Mudflats

RT @MikeElk: Madison Police & Dane County Sheriff have refused 2 remove protesters, Walker has called in State Troopers 2 do job #wiunion

aren't they unionized too?

509 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:30:44pm

re: #472 Dark_Falcon

Then what do you call the last election?

an election that took place in the depths of the worst recession since the great depression

510 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:30:46pm

re: #508 sagehen

aren't they unionized too?

yup

511 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:30:58pm

re: #487 avanti

BTW, don't count on the economy being bad much longer, the recovery has started.

Our new GOP run House can fix that!

512 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:31:23pm

re: #478 Stanley Sea

You are so uneducated. All you read/follow are the talking points of the right. There have been many many many thoughtful, sourced, articles directly disproving your statement. You are way to wrapped in your ideology. GAH

Many Many union generated propagandistic articles you mean.

513 webevintage  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:31:49pm

re: #511 jamesfirecat

Our new GOP run House can fix that!

Or that credit for it...

514 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:32:00pm

re: #508 sagehen

aren't they unionized too?

That would be a yes. If they refuse, then Walker's next move is to call in the National Guard. That happens, all bets are off.

515 McSpiff  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:32:24pm

re: #512 Buck

Many Many union generated propagandistic articles you mean.

Charles does propaganda now?

516 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:32:35pm

re: #505 talon_262

And he was right...

And he died before he could find out just how wrong he was. But even his death pointed the way to Japan's doom, with America's swift fielding of the P-38 Lightning.

517 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:32:45pm

re: #514 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

That would be a yes. If they refuse, then Walker's next move is to call in the National Guard. That happens, all bets are off.

He threatened it before. I have no doubt he will blame any bloodshed on "union thugs".

518 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:32:50pm

re: #381 blueraven

Maybe you should look into some things like Americorp or other such agencys, if you want to get outside of yourself and help others at the same time. If you are so inclined, and are in a position to do so of course.

They won't have anything to do with me, I was a very troublesome kid and ended up with some adult legal charges even before my sixteenth birthday. Yes it was more than 30 years ago, but it doesn't matter, they cannot take someone with a record just in case he goes "postal" later. Sigh...same reason I couldn't get into the military except through the back door.

519 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:33:21pm

re: #515 McSpiff

Charles does propaganda now?

According to the stalkers and their socks, yes.

520 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:33:21pm

re: #498 Buck

First of all this bill does not take away the collective bargaining rights of the teachers, so you can breath a sigh of relief. It only limits it.

and many workers, including federal works don't have it at ALL, and don't suffer.

Rights should not be removed should not be abridged should not be limited SHOULD NOT BE TOUCHED!

People should have the right to collectively baragain on EVERYTHING ALWAYS!

Just as you can not be convinced OLD LFG made Islamaphobes comfy, I can not be convinced that this is not HOW THINGS SHOULD BE.

That may not be how they are, but its how I want them to be and how I will argue for them to be every chance I get.

521 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:33:33pm

re: #515 McSpiff

Charles does propaganda now?

That's a stretch Spiffy, grab the wheel and get the car back on the road.

522 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:33:48pm

re: #506 prononymous

Hmm, I seem to recall republicans getting into office on the premise that they were going to fix something or another...

They're working on the budget now. Congressman Ryan is even now working on the GOP's budget proposal for next year.

523 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:33:58pm

re: #508 sagehen

aren't they unionized too?

Yes, but excluded from this new bill. Solidarity!

524 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:34:01pm

re: #503 recusancy

I give you 6 months.

Dark is saying a lot of poorly thought things on this thread, but that's bad form.

525 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:34:51pm

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

According to CNN (and the state Dems confirmed this) he offered to continue to allow collective bargaining on a number of issues other than salary and require reauthorization of unions once every three years instead of once a year. The Dems still refused to return.

I would have, too.

526 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:34:51pm

re: #500 Dark_Falcon

Horseshit. I've never been a nirther, nor will I ever be one.

Your socialism comment was uncalled for, and I think you know it. The only righties out there using that lie on a consistent basis are the ones also dog whistling about Kenya, birth certificates, etc.

527 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:34:52pm

re: #502 Buck

Well, I read the bill, and that is not in it...???

if you are an individual, and you lose your right to band together with other individuals in the same situation so that you can deal with a large insitituion such as a state government on more equal terms, then you have been rendered less powerful, nearly powerless, in negotiating for your livelyhood, and the state government rendered that much more powerful

i remember when i worked for the army how scared the army guys were to offend the command - there isn't any other u.s. army for them to go and work for

528 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:34:55pm

re: #522 Dark_Falcon

They're working on the budget now. Congressman Ryan is even now working on the GOP's budget proposal for next year.

If it's anything like his "Plan for America," then it should be good for a laugh.

529 KingKenrod  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:35:20pm

re: #486 Dark_Falcon

If it's a protest, then they're nothing wrong. But when they turn to blocking traffic and trying to shut down a city, things change.

The extension of collective bargaining privileges to public employees unions is an acknowledgement that thriving unions are more important than the public good & safety. I wouldn't expect them to start worrying about the public now...

530 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:35:43pm

re: #442 ausador

Not expecting anything to be better, hell considering the places I am considering going it is almost guaranteed to be worse. I also stand a small chance of getting killed just for being an American, regardless of my religious beliefs.

What it will be is something different and interesting, that is pretty much all I am looking for.

Try Ghana. It's an emerging African nation with no war and a good relationship with the US for a longtime. They are a democracy and need help building their infrastructure with shared oil revenues. They don't have negative feelings towards Americans, probably because it's a hot travel spot for so many AAs. Just wear lots of Obama t-shirts and you will be ok. They love him there. You would be relatively safe and welcome. Also, they speak English.

531 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:36:35pm

re: #520 jamesfirecat

Rights should not be removed should not be abridged should not be limited SHOULD NOT BE TOUCHED!

People should have the right to collectively baragain on EVERYTHING ALWAYS!

SO if the managment wants to take away the employees 2 week vacation, and overtime pay.... they should be able to "bargain" over those things right?

OR there are limits with in every bargaining unit must negotiate. In the teachers case, they can't ask for more of a raise beyond inflation.

Now you might think that is horrible... but in fact it is very reasonable.

532 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:37:19pm

re: #498 Buck

First of all this bill does not take away the collective bargaining rights of the teachers, so you can breath a sigh of relief. It only limits it.

and many workers, including federal works don't have it at ALL, and don't suffer.

so why are conservatives in favor of limiting the rights of workers?

us progressives are getting pretty used to hearing about how conservatives are against more government power while agitating for more government power

533 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:37:23pm

re: #529 KingKenrod

The extension of collective bargaining privileges to public employees unions is an acknowledgement that thriving unions are more important than the public good & safety. I wouldn't expect them to start worrying about the public now...

Horseshit. Tell that to your police and firefighters.

534 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:37:24pm

re: #527 engineer dog

if you are an individual, and you lose your right to band together with other individuals in the same situation so that you can deal with a large insitituion such as a state government on more equal terms, then you have been rendered less powerful, nearly powerless, in negotiating for your livelyhood, and the state government rendered that much more powerful

OK, and that is NOT in the bill.

535 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:38:12pm

re: #531 Buck

SO if the managment wants to take away the employees 2 week vacation, and overtime pay... they should be able to "bargain" over those things right?

OR there are limits with in every bargaining unit must negotiate. In the teachers case, they can't ask for more of a raise beyond inflation.

Now you might think that is horrible... but in fact it is very reasonable.

They should always have a right to bargain.

They may not get to keep them and may bargain them away for something else, but they should always have a right to sit at the table and discuss issues with the people who are employing them as a group.

536 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:38:12pm

re: #503 recusancy

I give you 6 months.

Oh, for fuck sakes, stop with the bullshit. Read D_Fs past posts, he's done nothing but call out the birthers and other crazies.

537 prairiefire  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:38:29pm

re: #486 Dark_Falcon

If it's a protest, then they're nothing wrong. But when they turn to blocking traffic and trying to shut down a city, things change.

So will the leftists be put down hard?

538 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:38:46pm

re: #531 Buck

SO if the managment wants to take away the employees 2 week vacation, and overtime pay... they should be able to "bargain" over those things right?

OR there are limits with in every bargaining unit must negotiate. In the teachers case, they can't ask for more of a raise beyond inflation.

Now you might think that is horrible... but in fact it is very reasonable.

Reasonable to whom? A guy who's been getting the shaft from Corporate America for 30+ years?

539 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:39:08pm

re: #532 engineer dog

so why are conservatives in favor of limiting the rights of workers?

us progressives are getting pretty used to hearing about how conservatives are against more government power while agitating for more government power

Conservatives are authoritarians. The only government they don't like is the kind that helps the poor and/or people "other" then them.

540 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:39:13pm

re: #532 engineer dog

so why are conservatives in favor of limiting the rights of workers?

us progressives are getting pretty used to hearing about how conservatives are against more government power while agitating for more government power

not limiting the rights of workers. In fact this bill strengthens some rights. In the teachers case it just limits their raises to inflation, unless there are special circumstances.

541 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:39:46pm

re: #536 b_sharp

Oh, for fuck sakes, stop with the bullshit. Read D_Fs past posts, he's done nothing but call out the birthers and other crazies.

I'm on the other side. The 'Socialist' comment was over the top, and right there in the RWC land.

thanks to SFZ, that's right wing crazy.

It was.

SOCIALIST? really?

542 darthstar  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:39:47pm

Wisconsin teachers are welcome in California. The cheese is better here, too.

543 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:39:51pm

re: #534 Buck

OK, and that is NOT in the bill.

Actually, by not allowing them to bargain for wages, that is *exactly* what is in the bill, you encephalic little person, you. I fart in your general direction!

544 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:40:03pm

re: #536 b_sharp

Oh, for fuck sakes, stop with the bullshit. Read D_Fs past posts, he's done nothing but call out the birthers and other crazies.

OK, but when he calls Obama a socialist, then he deserves to be called out on it. It's a cheap shot and not even close to being true. For most of the right, it's pure dog whistle stuff, the kind of rhetoric best avoided entirely.

545 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:40:15pm

re: #533 austin_blue

Horseshit. Tell that to your police and firefighters.

Seriously.

Also, don't forget the paramedics. Last I checked, they're public sector union workers too.

546 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:40:18pm

re: #535 jamesfirecat

They should always have a right to bargain.

They may not get to keep them and may bargain them away for something else, but they should always have a right to sit at the table and discuss issues with the people who are employing them as a group.

Well that has never been true in the past 70 years. There are always limits. Always have been.

547 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:40:31pm

re: #534 Buck

OK, and that is NOT in the bill.

um, you just said it limits their rights:

re: #498 Buck

First of all this bill does not take away the collective bargaining rights of the teachers, so you can breath a sigh of relief. It only limits it.

and many workers, including federal works don't have it at ALL, and don't suffer.

548 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:40:48pm

re: #538 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Reasonable to whom? A guy who's been getting the shaft from Corporate America for 30+ years?

The anti's are always on the side of "he has more than me, so I'm pissed"

549 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:41:15pm

re: #537 prairiefire

So will the leftists be put down hard?

I certainly hope not. I don't like to see people get hurt. I know I've advocated a hard-line approach on rioters, but this isn't a riot. I want this resolved without any violence.

550 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:41:41pm

re: #239 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

IIRC, this is the story that broke today. Walker supposedly offered the Dem Senators on the run, through email, to "revise" the union-busting provisions to allow a couple extra items be allowed for collective bargaining. He would still maintain, however, the bit about dues and the bit about annual recertification votes.

In short, his concessions were a joke, but the fact that he "offered" was supposed to be proof that it's the Dems were the ones who didn't want to bargain.

I wonder what he was willing to allow collective bargaining on, the number of urinals in the toilets?

551 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:41:56pm

re: #524 jamesfirecat

Dark is saying a lot of poorly thought things on this thread, but that's bad form.

Maybe that's because "Liberals today might be more educated, fair and balanced than conservatives,"

552 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:42:09pm

re: #518 ausador

They won't have anything to do with me, I was a very troublesome kid and ended up with some adult legal charges even before my sixteenth birthday. Yes it was more than 30 years ago, but it doesn't matter, they cannot take someone with a record just in case he goes "postal" later. Sigh...same reason I couldn't get into the military except through the back door.

Habitat isn't choosey--I've run crews of volunteers from the county jails. (We do Police Dept Builds, too. I always wanted to run "cops n' robbers" on one site, but cooler heads prevail).

553 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:42:21pm

re: #547 engineer dog

um, you just said it limits their rights:

re: #498 Buck

Ya, remove and limit are not the same thing.

554 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:42:58pm

re: #551 Walter L. Newton

Maybe that's because "Liberals today might be more educated, fair and balanced than conservatives,"

Huh?

555 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:43:05pm

re: #526 palomino

Your socialism comment was uncalled for, and I think you know it. The only righties out there using that lie on a consistent basis are the ones also dog whistling about Kenya, birth certificates, etc.

So because you believe D_F made a bad call, it becomes acceptable to go one step farther?

You want to deal with D_F's use of socialist, then deal with it, don't put words into his mouth just because you have evidence of a connection in other people.

556 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:43:15pm

Oh brother.

Stand back to avoid the castoff from the frenzied right wing spinning.

557 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:43:30pm

re: #554 jamesfirecat

Huh?

You figure it out.

558 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:43:54pm

re: #553 Buck

Ya, remove and limit are not the same thing.

Sort of like how severing a limb and placing someone in chains aren't the same thing.

559 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:44:13pm

re: #553 Buck

Being able to negotiate only when managment feels like it? Not much difference then between removing and limiting.

560 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:44:24pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

Fine. Then they can watch their followers get laid off. Walker offered them concessions, which they refused. So now its time for the hammer to come down.

It is we who plowed the prairies; built the cities where they trade;
Dug the mines and built the workshops, endless miles of railroad laid;
Now we stand outcast and starving midst the wonders we have made;
But the union makes us strong.

561 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:44:47pm

re: #532 engineer dog

so why are conservatives in favor of limiting the rights of workers?

us progressives are getting pretty used to hearing about how conservatives are against more government power while agitating for more government power

That's a good question.

The answer is, conservatives of a certain bent value ideology over consistency.

562 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:45:30pm

re: #555 b_sharp

So because you believe D_F made a bad call, it becomes acceptable to go one step farther?

You want to deal with D_F's use of socialist, then deal with it, don't put words into his mouth just because you have evidence of a connection in other people.

I didn't put words into his mouth. I pointed out that he's in really shitty company if he's gonna peddle the lie that Obama's a socialist.

563 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:45:30pm

re: #559 jaunte

Being able to negotiate only when managment feels like it? Not much difference then between removing and limiting.

Also not true.

564 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:45:50pm

re: #553 Buck

Ya, remove and limit are not the same thing.

limiting bargaining rights makes the employees less powerful and the state government more powerful

wisconsin state employees don't have another wisconsin state government to go apply to work for if they don't like the compensation they get currently, and now they have to swallow what the government decides more than ever before

that's a more powerful state government

565 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:46:23pm

re: #558 Lidane

Sort of like how severing a limb and placing someone in chains aren't the same thing.

ya, that is not over the top. Thank you for the huge leap.

566 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:46:33pm

re: #544 palomino

OK, but when he calls Obama a socialist, then he deserves to be called out on it. It's a cheap shot and not even close to being true. For most of the right, it's pure dog whistle stuff, the kind of rhetoric best avoided entirely.

I did use 'socialist' as a dog whistle, I used it because I got pissed. I'm tired and my foot hurts, so I got cross. Sorry for the over-the-top stuff. But I maintain that Obama is firmly left-liberal.

567 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:46:50pm

re: #556 Charles

Oh brother.

Stand back to avoid the castoff from the frenzied right wing spinning.

You are an AFM union man. My wife is an AFM Unionwoman. Care to explain to some of these pinheads just how important that is?

Start with axe insurance.

568 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:47:24pm

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

I did use 'socialist' as a dog whistle, I used it because I got pissed. I'm tired and my foot hurts, so I got cross. Sorry for the over-the-top stuff. But I maintain that Obama is firmly left-liberal.

And there's nothing unamerican about that don't you agree?

569 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:47:26pm

re: #565 Buck

It's over the top, but it's pretty much as absurd as your own argument that removing and limiting aren't the same thing.

You're going into "the definition of is" territory here.

570 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:47:37pm

re: #563 Buck

"Some of the items in Walker's compromise plan could only be bargained if both sides agree to take them up."

Which items?

571 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:47:47pm

re: #564 engineer dog

limiting bargaining rights makes the employees less powerful and the state government more powerful

wisconsin state employees don't have another wisconsin state government to go apply to work for if they don't like the compensation they get currently, and now they have to swallow what the government decides more than ever before

that's a more powerful state government

You said "if you are an individual, and you lose your right to band together with other individuals if you are an individual, and you lose your right to band together with other individuals". Well that was simply NOT in the bill.

The teachers did not lose their right to band together..

572 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:48:00pm

re: #567 austin_blue

I'm someone who is a little on the young side and hasn't heard of the AFM Union. What are they, and what do they do?

573 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:48:16pm

re: #571 Buck

You said "if you are an individual, and you lose your right to band together with other individuals if you are an individual, and you lose your right to band together with other individuals". Well that was simply NOT in the bill.

The teachers did not lose their right to band together..

They do in regards to certain issues.

574 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:48:41pm

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

I did not use 'socialist' as a dog whistle, I used it because I got pissed. I'm tired and my foot hurts, so I got cross. Sorry for the over-the-top stuff. But I maintain that Obama is firmly left-liberal.

Geeze, that's a goof.

575 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:48:42pm

re: #573 jamesfirecat

They do in regards to certain issues.

Which ones?

576 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:48:44pm

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

I did use 'socialist' as a dog whistle, I used it because I got pissed. I'm tired and my foot hurts, so I got cross. Sorry for the over-the-top stuff. But I maintain that Obama is firmly left-liberal.

Fair enough. From what I've seen, you're better than the dog whistlers.

Yeah, he's a liberal like Clinton. He says liberal stuff, then governs as a centrist.

577 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:48:51pm

technically, socialism is a form of economic and political organization where the government owns and operates the major industries

i've been trying, unsuccessfully, to get people to use the term in a way that wouldn't describe every government on earth since the roman empire

578 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:48:52pm

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

I did use 'socialist' as a dog whistle, I used it because I got pissed. I'm tired and my foot hurts, so I got cross. Sorry for the over-the-top stuff. But I maintain that Obama is firmly left-liberal.

So he says, but I'm waiting for the results.

579 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:49:29pm

re: #572 ProLifeLiberal

I'm someone who is a little on the young side and hasn't heard of the AFM Union. What are they, and what do they do?

American Federation of Musicians

580 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:49:51pm

re: #578 Decatur Deb

So he says, but I'm waiting for the results.

Above all, he's a pragmatist, getting what he can and leaving the ideological battles to others.

581 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:50:34pm

re: #575 Walter L. Newton

Which ones?

Hours, overtime, sick leave or family leave, work schedules or vacation

582 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:50:34pm

re: #285 Gus 802

Let us pray to the god of corporations! Soon we shall privatize everything in America and it will be under corporate rule! No more unions, not more public services. Everything will be based on a private subscription to services!

//

In the future there will no longer be war. But there will be Rollerball™.

Youtube Video
583 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:50:49pm

re: #573 jamesfirecat

They do in regards to certain issues.

Again, there are always limits in every negotiation. On both Management and union. Always have been.

584 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:51:24pm

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

I did use 'socialist' as a dog whistle, I used it because I got pissed. I'm tired and my foot hurts, so I got cross. Sorry for the over-the-top stuff. But I maintain that Obama is firmly left-liberal.

In his heart this is true, but not always in practice. The closest thing to socialist Obama has done is attempt to create universal access to health care and he did it using the most conservative approach: the individual mandate. Which was actually once championed by many conservatives. See Romneycare. Conservatives used to like the idea of mandates because the only other alternative to create universal health care is single payer.

585 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:51:24pm

re: #571 Buck

You said "if you are an individual, and you lose your right to band together with other individuals if you are an individual, and you lose your right to band together with other individuals". Well that was simply NOT in the bill.

The teachers did not lose their right to band together..

okay, i give up, thousands of people have been camping out in the wisconsin state capital for weeks because the state workers are not losing any collective bargaining power at all

what were we thinking?

586 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:51:38pm

re: #583 Buck

Again, there are always limits in every negotiation. On both Management and union. Always have been.

I look forward to your arguments for limiting no bid contracts.

587 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:51:43pm

re: #537 prairiefire

So will the leftists be put down hard?

This comment is more for D_F, not so much for you prairiefire.

The US was built on organizing against the reigning government and the use of civil unrest to force change. Protests have a long history in the US and the use of public acts such as blocking traffic is a world recognized symbol of the freedoms Americans have above most other countries.

Why would you want to change that?

Have the right decided economic gains are more import than hard fought for freedoms?

588 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:51:48pm

re: #583 Buck

Again, there are always limits in every negotiation. On both Management and union. Always have been.

What limits have been placed on Management?

589 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:52:17pm

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

But I maintain that Obama is firmly left-liberal.

Hardly. The guy's a centrist, through and through. That's how he's governed so far.

Nixon was more of a liberal than Obama has been so far.

590 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:52:30pm

re: #579 Lidane

Am I the only one who thinks that Musician belonging to this should disallow Republicans from using any music from Associated artists?

591 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:52:49pm

re: #572 ProLifeLiberal

I'm someone who is a little on the young side and hasn't heard of the AFM Union. What are they, and what do they do?

The American Federation of Musicians.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

My wife is listed around three names below Willie Nelson in the Local.

592 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:53:33pm

re: #590 ProLifeLiberal

Am I the only one who thinks that Musician belonging to this should disallow Republicans from using any music from Associated artists?

That would be wonderful.

The question is what songs are Republicans most likely to want to use, and who do they belong to?

593 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:53:36pm

And here's an old favorite for Stalker 'Malachi Mulligan', for his homophobic insult of James:

Youtube Video
594 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:53:41pm

re: #578 Decatur Deb

So he says, but I'm waiting for the results.

Give him more liberals in Congress. Conservadems killed the public option, the Dream Act, and closing Guantanamo.

595 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:53:41pm

re: #585 engineer dog

okay, i give up, thousands of people have been camping out in the wisconsin state capital for weeks because the state workers are not losing any collective bargaining power at all

what were we thinking?

Union generated protests. Extreme astro turf. People have been bused in from as far as out of state.

Read the bill for yourself, the union would rather you didn't.

596 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:53:47pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

Fine. Then they can watch their followers get laid off. Walker offered them concessions, which they refused. So now its time for the hammer to come down.

That's BS and you know it...it was publicly stated by the unions that they were willing to compromise, as long as collective bargaining was left alone. Walker and the GOP senators decided to double down, so here we are, on the precipice.

It seems like Walker is not letting a crisis go to waste...

597 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:54:15pm

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

I did use 'socialist' as a dog whistle, I used it because I got pissed. I'm tired and my foot hurts, so I got cross. Sorry for the over-the-top stuff. But I maintain that Obama is firmly left-liberal.

Are you kidding? Now, if you said he lied to the firmly left liberals to make them think he was in their camp, you would be correct. But President Obama a left liberal... no way.

598 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:54:38pm

re: #589 Lidane

Hardly. The guy's a centrist, through and through. That's how he's governed so far.

Nixon was more of a liberal than Obama has been so far.

Shit Nixon wanted to guarantee poor families a certain amount of income. The only reason why it never happened was opposition from the left (didn't go far enough) and from the right for obvious reasons. If Nixon were still with us today, he'd be considered a bleeding heart. I'm a left liberal. The president is a centrist.

599 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:54:41pm

re: #590 ProLifeLiberal

Am I the only one who thinks that Musician belonging to this should disallow Republicans from using any music from Associated artists?

Most artists don't already.

600 Spocomptonite  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:54:50pm

re: #486 Dark_Falcon

If it's a protest, then they're nothing wrong. But when they turn to blocking traffic and trying to shut down a city, things change.

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

I did use 'socialist' as a dog whistle, I used it because I got pissed. I'm tired and my foot hurts, so I got cross. Sorry for the over-the-top stuff. But I maintain that Obama is firmly left-liberal.

Oh yeah. And so are moderates. And independents. And Science. And reality. Because they aren't as right-leaning as right-leaners want them to be.

601 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:55:20pm

re: #581 jamesfirecat

I can only assume that Buck doesn't particularly care about the fact that in his ideal world, the teachers ould be worked to the bone, and have a hard time getting a raise for their work, just as long as he didn't have to pay more tax money.

I'm so livid at Republicans right now. I've had it with them.

602 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:55:28pm

re: #15 moderatelyradicalliberal

So can liberals start using the term "rammed it down our throats"?

Let's not. There's something sexual about the overuse of the phrase that bothers me.

603 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:55:52pm

Fair and balanced headline

[Link: nation.foxnews.com...]

604 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:56:36pm

re: #588 jamesfirecat

What limits have been placed on Management?

management is not actually allowed to eviscerate and behead union representatives while they are in the conference room together

605 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:56:43pm

re: #594 moderatelyradicalliberal

Give him more liberals in Congress. Conservadems killed the public option, the Dream Act, and closing Guantanamo.

Not gonna happen. Liberalism isn't very popular right now. It's too expensive and we can't afford it.

606 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:57:07pm

re: #541 Stanley Sea

I'm on the other side. The 'Socialist' comment was over the top, and right there in the RWC land.

thanks to SFZ, that's right wing crazy.

It was.

SOCIALIST? really?

I'm not concerned with what D_F said. I am concerned that a political opponent's comments are apparently justification for an all out shitfest.

I don't agree with a lot of D_F's political ideals, but I'm more than willing to argue the points with him without whinging about his words. And yes I will and do call him out when he says something outrageous.

BTW, what exactly is a socialist?

607 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:57:27pm

re: #604 engineer dog

management is not actually allowed to eviscerate and behead union representatives while they are in the conference room together

Ahh.

Maybe if we keep at it we can also force them to admit where they buried Jimmy Hoffa?

608 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:57:36pm

re: #588 jamesfirecat

What limits have been placed on Management?

Quite a few. You know that 4%, or two week vacation you get? Ever wonder why everyone has it... every job, every employee? You can't be denied it. It is an example of a limit placed on management.

In the teachers case, they have job securities that cannot be touched, and only in extreme cases can they be fired. That is a limit on Management.

I could list more... but I hope you get the point.

609 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:58:04pm

Insane live video from inside the WI capitol

[Link: www.livestream.com...]

610 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:58:27pm

re: #605 Dark_Falcon

Not gonna happen. Liberalism isn't very popular right now. It's too expensive and we can't afford it.

Was it too expensive in the Great Depression?

611 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:58:44pm

re: #606 b_sharp

I'm not concerned with what D_F said. I am concerned that a political opponent's comments are apparently justification for an all out shitfest.

I don't agree with a lot of D_F's political ideals, but I'm more than willing to argue the points with him without whinging about his words. And yes I will and do call him out when he says something outrageous.

BTW, what exactly is a socialist?

Not Obama, that's for sure.

Bernie Sanders of VT.

612 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:59:16pm

re: #605 Dark_Falcon

Not gonna happen. Liberalism isn't very popular right now. It's too expensive and we can't afford it.

Yeah people sure do hate Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, civil rights, clean air and clean water.

613 bratwurst  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:59:20pm

re: #608 Buck

Quite a few. You know that 4%, or two week vacation you get? Ever wonder why everyone has it... every job, every employee? You can't be denied it.

Tears of joy! Ever wonder why people don't work 16 hour days and children no longer work in factories? More limits!

614 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 7:59:35pm

re: #605 Dark_Falcon

Not gonna happen. Liberalism isn't very popular right now. It's too expensive and we can't afford it.

Oh yeah that's right all of those liberal wars and that liberal trickle down economics are what bankrupted the country. It was liberals spending all of that money for the last 10 years.

615 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:00:07pm

re: #610 jamesfirecat

Was it too expensive in the Great Depression?

Haven't you heard, man? FDR's policies dragged out the Depression! If it hadn't been for the New Deal, the economy would have been booming in a year, maybe two. Instead, we had to wait for WWII to drag us out, and even then it didn't really work!

//

616 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:00:19pm

re: #605 Dark_Falcon

Not gonna happen. Liberalism isn't very popular right now. It's too expensive and we can't afford it.

Dark you're being penny wise pound foolish.

You know how they say there are no atheists in fox holes?

Well in a perfect world, there should be no Austrians (economists) in a recession....

The government needs to keep priming the pump till unemployment is back under control.

617 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:00:25pm

re: #587 b_sharp


Have the right decided economic gains are more import than hard fought for freedoms?

Depends whose economic gains and whose freedoms.

618 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:00:32pm

re: #612 recusancy

Yeah people sure do hate Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, civil rights, clean air and clean water.

They don't hate it, they just hate having to pay for it.

619 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:00:40pm

re: #613 bratwurst

Tears of joy! Ever wonder why people don't work 16 hour days and children no longer work in factories? More limits!

Mangement figured out that Asian people we don't know would still work that way.

620 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:00:51pm

re: #605 Dark_Falcon

How did the hyper free-market work for Iceland and Ireland again? Oh right.

Notice how Sweden and Finland were not nearly as affected by the recession as we were. Perhaps going to the left is a good idea.

(I don't include Norway, as they sit on a large amount of oil.)

621 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:01:29pm

re: #619 jaunte

I meant to type management; I guess mangement will have to do.

622 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:01:35pm

re: #598 HappyWarrior

If Nixon were still with us today, he'd be considered a bleeding heart.

And if Goldwater was alive today, he'd be a filthy RINO.

I'm a left liberal. The president is a centrist.

Seriously. Anyone who thinks this president is a left-liberal hasn't checked in with their left-liberal friends lately. Mine are apoplectic these days about a whole host of things.

Obama's a centrist. He ran as one, and he's governing as one. Anyone who thinks this guy has ever been a left-liberal didn't pay attention to anything he said during the election.

623 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:01:49pm

re: #604 engineer dog

management is not actually allowed to eviscerate and behead union representatives while they are in the conference room together

No beatings with cat o' nine tails either. That was once so effective you could get people to work for free and never complain about anything.

624 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:01:52pm

re: #544 palomino

OK, but when he calls Obama a socialist, then he deserves to be called out on it. It's a cheap shot and not even close to being true. For most of the right, it's pure dog whistle stuff, the kind of rhetoric best avoided entirely.

Yes, call him out. Make him show evidence that Obama is a socialist. Maybe even get him to explain his definition of socialist, and show him he's using the term to get away without addressing specific actions. Using a label like socialist, without sufficiently defining it, is a lazy argument.

Personally I don't take the label as a insult. Socialism is part of being human.

625 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:01:53pm

From Eisenhower: "Only a fool would try to deprive working men and women of their right to join the union of their choice."

626 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:01:53pm

re: #596 talon_262

That's BS and you know it...it was publicly stated by the unions that they were willing to compromise, as long as collective bargaining was left alone. Walker and the GOP senators decided to double down, so here we are, on the precipice.

It seems like Walker is not letting a crisis go to waste...

Can you not see that elections have consequences? The Dem 14 ran away, and acted undemocratically.

You know how those other, federal, protests were? Peaceful? You think the union generated protests will be as peaceful?

627 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:02:11pm

re: #619 jaunte

Mangement figured out that Asian people we don't know would still work that way.

And now are trying to convince folks back here that it's good for us too. Hey, why should Junior settle for a paper route when he can be working the register at McDonald's at 14? At less than minimum wage, of course.

/

628 Spocomptonite  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:02:16pm

re: #605 Dark_Falcon

Not gonna happen. Liberalism isn't very popular right now. It's too expensive and we can't afford it.

"We can't afford it." is the excuse to wage an ideological war against ACORN, Education, Immigrants, Health care, Unions, the poor, etc.

Yet what is our income tax rate relative to other developed countries? How about our military budget in relation to the rest of the world? How many personnel to we have in how many bases in how many countries? How many conflicts are we in right now? And to top it off, how many of the same people using the "we can't afford it" excuse are also advocating for further armed intervention by us in how many different places across the world?

WTF, mate? I'd say Republicans are too expensive and we can't afford them, not only financially but especially socially.

629 KingKenrod  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:02:23pm

They're getting the chants and drum circles going in the state capitol...

And now they've closed the bathrooms...

630 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:02:30pm

re: #612 recusancy

Yeah people sure do hate Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, civil rights, clean air and clean water.

They also hate unions, collective bargaining rights, five day work weeks, overtime pay, maternity and child leave, and the end of child labor.

631 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:02:33pm

re: #590 ProLifeLiberal

Am I the only one who thinks that Musician belonging to this should disallow Republicans from using any music from Associated artists?

Like how Rand Paul kept using other people's copyrighted music for his campaign rallies and commercials, without permission. He was served a whole collection of restraining orders.

632 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:02:34pm

Jon Stewart is ripping the Prez on Gitmo closure.

633 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:02:56pm

re: #625 SanFranciscoZionist

From Eisenhower: "Only a fool would try to deprive working men and women of their right to join the union of their choice."

No one is denying the teachers the right to join a union. That is the proverbial red herring.

634 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:03:07pm

re: #546 Buck

Well that has never been true in the past 70 years. There are always limits. Always have been.

Why are the rights of the employer more 'correct' than those of the employees?

635 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:03:28pm

Wow. I just turned on Fox Business Channel and Judge Andrew is screaming like a lunatic about shutting down the government.

The Alex-Jonesification of Fox News is proceeding.

636 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:03:36pm

re: #625 SanFranciscoZionist

From Eisenhower: "Only a fool would try to deprive working men and women of their right to join the union of their choice."

“It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.” (George Meany -- the former president of the A.F.L.-C.I.O -- 1955)

637 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:03:44pm

re: #595 Buck

Union generated protests. Extreme astro turf. People have been bused in from as far as out of state.

Read the bill for yourself, the union would rather you didn't.

oh BULLSHIT.

Tens of thousands of people standing in the snow for weeks on end is very much not astroturf.

638 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:03:47pm

re: #625 SanFranciscoZionist

From Eisenhower: "Only a fool would try to deprive working men and women of their right to join the union of their choice."

RINO!!!

/wingnut

639 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:03:54pm

Chanting crowds (with or without percussion instruments) creep me the hell out, regardless of whether I might agree with them or not.

640 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:04:02pm

re: #633 Buck

No one is denying the teachers the right to join a union. That is the proverbial red herring.

This is true. What is happening is an attempt to make union membership politically and economically useless.

641 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:04:09pm

Also, wasn't St. Ronald of Reagan a union man?

642 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:04:10pm

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

I did use 'socialist' as a dog whistle, I used it because I got pissed. I'm tired and my foot hurts, so I got cross. Sorry for the over-the-top stuff. But I maintain that Obama is firmly left-liberal.

Thank you for the apology, DF. But you are wrong about Obama. He is, as I've said since I knew he'd be president after Iowa, totally centrist, center right. He's what they call "Christian Democrat" in Europe. Admittedly that's leftist by the standards of the GOP but not even close to real Socialism.

A real socialist making a serious attempt at running for president wouldn't survive till November. Too many haters would be freaking like it was Armageddon.

643 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:04:17pm

re: #302 jamesfirecat

///Why do we have some kind of government funded socialist army made up of government employees? If America wants to win wars it is going to need to start employing private citzens willing to fight for the highest bidder that's how you get real quality fighting men!

Until the mercs realize a) They have no money and do have guns and b) their employers have money and no guns.

Happened all the time in Renaissance Italy.

644 prairiefire  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:04:22pm

re: #592 jamesfirecat

That would be wonderful.

The question is what songs are Republicans most likely to want to use, and who do they belong to?

Kid Rock
Brittney Spears
Jessica Simpson
Snookie

645 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:04:39pm

re: #626 Buck

Keep on being delusional Buck. There hasn't been violence yet. Oh, and what about the counter protestors bused in by the Tea Party? I'm guessing that didn't happen in your world.

646 Spocomptonite  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:04:39pm

re: #632 Decatur Deb

Jon Stewart is ripping the Prez on Gitmo closure.

He rightly deserves that.

647 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:04:45pm

re: #605 Dark_Falcon

Not gonna happen. Liberalism isn't very popular right now. It's too expensive and we can't afford it.

from what i've seen, conservatism is vastly more expensive and unpopular

not to mention dangerous

648 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:04:45pm

re: #632 Decatur Deb

Jon Stewart is ripping the Prez on Gitmo closure.

Get him a Congress that will fund the closure.

649 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:04:51pm

re: #625 SanFranciscoZionist

From Eisenhower: "Only a fool would try to deprive working men and women of their right to join the union of their choice."

I would like to call a Miss Franziska Von Karma to the stand to offer her opinion on Scott Walker....

650 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:04:51pm

re: #601 ProLifeLiberal

I can only assume that Buck doesn't particularly care about the fact that in his ideal world, the teachers ould be worked to the bone, and have a hard time getting a raise for their work, just as long as he didn't have to pay more tax money.

I'm so livid at Republicans right now. I've had it with them.

You can only assume that you can make shit up, and people will believe you.

651 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:05:03pm

re: #633 Buck

No one is denying the teachers the right to join a union. That is the proverbial red herring.

No, they're just denying the union the ability to negotiate for anything other than pay raises that are tied to COLA, making dues voluntary so that if you want union goodies but don't want to pay dues you can do that, and require that unions hold votes every year to stay in business.

Nah, they're not denying you the right to join a union. After all, why join one when you can just enjoy all the perks and none of the costs?

652 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:05:04pm

re: #641 Lidane

Also, wasn't St. Ronald of Reagan a union man?

A union president no less who promoted Solidarity as president. Tell me if unions are so bad, why did Reagan first join one and support the hell out of Solidarity as president?

653 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:05:29pm

re: #606 b_sharp

BTW, what exactly is a socialist?

Really? See [Link: www.dsausa.org...] for examples of modern Democratic Socialism in America.

654 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:05:48pm

re: #650 Buck

You can only assume that you can make shit up, and people will believe you.

The GOP does this all of the time.

655 Kronocide  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:05:55pm

How facts backfire

In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger.

This bodes ill for a democracy, because most voters — the people making decisions about how the country runs — aren’t blank slates. They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their minds. The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct information, such people react very, very differently than the merely uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct information, they can entrench themselves even deeper.

656 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:05:58pm

OK, I had to take a break. Thanks to the Lizard who turned me onto this site. I die laughing every day I visit. Again, muchas gracias #wiunion

[Link: damnyouautocorrect.com...]

check this one out.

657 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:06:06pm

re: #610 jamesfirecat

Was it too expensive in the Great Depression?

It was seriously problematic even then. The backslide recession of the late 30's was evidence of that. And some of the New Deal went too far, such as the National Recovery Act that the Supreme Court threw out that ended up forbidding those wanting to buy a chicken from picking the one they wanted.

That is however, not to say that FDR was a net minus, because that idea cannot be sustained. He was wrong about some things, but he was positive and decisive. And those were needed traits after Herbert Hoover's irresolution. And when World War II broke out, FDR was needed as never before. He prove equal to the task, though the task did kill him in the end. But in that death he had proved his willingness to give the last full measure of devotion to his nation, and such a man as that must be honored.

658 Spocomptonite  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:06:10pm

re: #633 Buck

Oh sure, they can join a union.

A useless, powerless union.

659 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:06:19pm

re: #651 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

No, they're just denying the union the ability to negotiate for anything other than pay raises that are tied to COLA, making dues voluntary so that if you want union goodies but don't want to pay dues you can do that, and require that unions hold votes every year to stay in business.

Nah, they're not denying you the right to join a union. After all, why join one when you can just enjoy all the perks and none of the costs?

Not voluntary, just not collected by the state. The unions have to collect their own dues.

660 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:06:31pm

re: #624 b_sharp

Yes, call him out. Make him show evidence that Obama is a socialist. Maybe even get him to explain his definition of socialist, and show him he's using the term to get away without addressing specific actions. Using a label like socialist, without sufficiently defining it, is a lazy argument.

Personally I don't take the label as a insult. Socialism is part of being human.

I agree with that last part 100%. And if conservatives were honest about it, they'd admit that we already have some socialism that even they wouldn't dare get rid of. But in our political discourse, it's a slur used by the right to demonize as un-American, foreign, debased those on the left who favor any social programs.

661 prairiefire  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:06:37pm

re: #609 negativ

Insane live video from inside the WI capitol

[Link: www.livestream.com...]

Fantastic. The r's have started a storm.

662 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:06:45pm

re: #636 Walter L. Newton

“It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.” (George Meany -- the former president of the A.F.L.-C.I.O -- 1955)

Our Fed unions had the right to "Consult". In essence we accepted that in exchange for Civil Service protections, which have been eroded since my buddy Prez Jimmah.

663 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:07:10pm

re: #641 Lidane

Also, wasn't St. Ronald of Reagan a union man?

Fink.

664 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:07:24pm

re: #662 Decatur Deb

Our Fed unions had the right to "Consult". In essence we accepted that in exchange for Civil Service protections, which have been eroded since my buddy Prez Jimmah.

Up through the 1950s, unions widely agreed that collective bargaining had no place in government. But starting with Wisconsin in 1959, states began to allow collective bargaining in government. The influx of dues and members quickly changed the union movement’s tune, and collective bargaining in government is now widespread. As a result unions can now insist on laws that serve their interests – at the expense of the common good.

665 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:07:35pm

re: #626 Buck

Can you not see that elections have consequences? The Dem 14 ran away, and acted undemocratically.

Abraham Lincoln once jumped out a window (second story one at that point) to try and deny his political opponents a Quorum after the other side locked the doors to the capital window.

Did he act undemocratically?

666 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:07:35pm

re: #659 Buck

Not voluntary, just not collected by the state. The unions have to collect their own dues.

Like I said, why join the union when you're not getting anything out of it? Especially when the management is telling you that if you vote against it next time it comes up for recertification, you'll get a nice juicy bonus in your next paycheck?

667 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:07:39pm

re: #562 palomino

I didn't put words into his mouth. I pointed out that he's in really shitty company if he's gonna peddle the lie that Obama's a socialist.

It didn't read that way.

I suspect D_F really believes Obama is a socialist. I also suspect most conservatives that use the label are doing so because they either don't have valid arguments against Obama, or they're too lazy to dig into the arguments.

668 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:07:43pm

re: #338 ausador

I don't give a f**k anymore, as soon as I get Mom and Dad's estate settled I am getting the hell out of here. I'm just way too tired of the cynical lies, I can't do this anymore, at least not right now...

I need to go start over, maybe southern Africa, maybe Indonesia, who knows?

I need to do something for myself again, help others with my skills, I need the ego boost.

Call me biased, but I'm in favor of the starting over in Indonesia option myself.

669 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:07:45pm

re: #613 bratwurst

Tears of joy! Ever wonder why people don't work 16 hour days and children no longer work in factories? More limits!

i did a paper in college that mentioned all the arguments that the conservatives of the late 19th century ponied up to defend child labor as an obvious benefit to society

670 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:07:55pm

re: #622 Lidane

And if Goldwater was alive today, he'd be a filthy RINO.

Seriously. Anyone who thinks this president is a left-liberal hasn't checked in with their left-liberal friends lately. Mine are apoplectic these days about a whole host of things.

Obama's a centrist. He ran as one, and he's governing as one. Anyone who thinks this guy has ever been a left-liberal didn't pay attention to anything he said during the election.

It's amazing really to me to hear people act like Obama is some radical leftist. Shit people if you really think that then you must think that Nixon by extension is a Commie.

671 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:08:20pm

re: #650 Buck

Your the one making shit up here. For one, ther has been no violence at the protests. This has been a transparent attempt to shove us back to the 19th century by crippling the unions to the point of non-existance. Your side must be defeated.

672 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:08:20pm

re: #664 Walter L. Newton

Up through the 1950s, unions widely agreed that collective bargaining had no place in government. But starting with Wisconsin in 1959, states began to allow collective bargaining in government. The influx of dues and members quickly changed the union movement’s tune, and collective bargaining in government is now widespread. As a result unions can now insist on laws that serve their interests – at the expense of the common good.

Sorry... the above paragraph should have been in quotes. Not my words.

673 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:08:37pm

re: #665 jamesfirecat

Abraham Lincoln once jumped out a window (second story one at that point) to try and deny his political opponents a Quorum after the other side locked the doors to the capital window.

Did he act undemocratically?

Well the GOP does hate Lincoln now.

//kinda

674 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:08:51pm

re: #603 negativ

Fair and balanced headline

[Link: nation.foxnews.com...]

They're worse than Drudge.

675 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:08:57pm

re: #665 jamesfirecat

Abraham Lincoln once jumped out a window (second story one at that point) to try and deny his political opponents a Quorum after the other side locked the doors to the capital window.

Did he act undemocratically?

Come on, you know what really happened....he didn't skip the state for 3 weeks.... Come on, tell the rest of the story...

676 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:09:36pm

re: #664 Walter L. Newton

Up through the 1950s, unions widely agreed that collective bargaining had no place in government. But starting with Wisconsin in 1959, states began to allow collective bargaining in government. The influx of dues and members quickly changed the union movement’s tune, and collective bargaining in government is now widespread. As a result unions can now insist on laws that serve their interests – at the expense of the common good.

There's the other half of that upding.

677 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:09:36pm

re: #652 HappyWarrior

A union president no less who promoted Solidarity as president. Tell me if unions are so bad, why did Reagan first join one and support the hell out of Solidarity as president?

Because St. Ronnie was the ultimate opportunist. When it was expedient to praise unions (Poland), he did so, when it necessary to do buisness, he joined (SAG), when it was expedient for them to be bad guys, they were (PATCO).

He only gave a rats ass about wealth and power.

678 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:09:48pm

re: #672 Walter L. Newton

James Sherk, of the Heritage Foundation
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

679 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:10:25pm

re: #670 HappyWarrior

It's amazing really to me to hear people act like Obama is some radical leftist. Shit people if you really think that then you must think that Nixon by extension is a Commie.

I don't know if you have noticed, but every GOP president aside form Reagan has been declared a progressive and is not longer admired by the GOP rank and file.

//kinda

680 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:10:30pm

re: #673 moderatelyradicalliberal

Well the GOP does hate Lincoln now.

//kinda

It will be interesting to see if they fly the "Party of Lincoln" flag at the next convention.

681 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:10:41pm

re: #667 b_sharp

It didn't read that way.

I suspect D_F really believes Obama is a socialist. I also suspect most conservatives that use the label are doing so because they either don't have valid arguments against Obama, or they're too lazy to dig into the arguments.

But, honestly, has Obama done anything that could be fairly characterized as socialist?

682 quiet reader  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:11:27pm

re: #637 sagehen

oh BULLSHIT.

Tens of thousands of people standing in the snow for weeks on end is very much not astroturf.

Sounds more like they are fans of the socialist community owned Green Bay Packers. I wonder how long it will be before the Packers are sold off to the public sector?
///

683 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:11:30pm

re: #678 jaunte

James Sherk, of the Heritage Foundation
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

So what... F.D.R of the democratic party. "F.D.R. Warned: Allowing Public Sector Unions Collective Bargaining Rights “Unthinkable and Intolerable.”"

684 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:11:33pm

re: #659 Buck

Not voluntary, just not collected by the state. The unions have to collect their own dues.

//Sounds like the union is going to need a lot more thugs...

685 freetoken  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:11:34pm

re: #681 palomino

But, honestly, has Obama done anything that could be fairly characterized as socialist?

IMO, no. Or at least, no more so than any preceding President.

686 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:11:34pm

re: #679 moderatelyradicalliberal

I don't know if you have noticed, but every GOP president aside form Reagan has been declared a progressive and is not longer admired by the GOP rank and file.

//kinda

Yeah I have noticed that come to think of it. It's just, I re-read my paper I wrote on Nixon a couple years ago and man does that guy look like a liberal.

687 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:11:46pm

re: #657 Dark_Falcon

It was seriously problematic even then. The backslide recession of the late 30's was evidence of that.

That backslide was due, solely, to budget cuts. Had we stayed the course, the depression would have ended without the massive Keynesian expenditures called WWII.

688 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:12:19pm

re: #683 Walter L. Newton

So what... F.D.R of the democratic party. "F.D.R. Warned: Allowing Public Sector Unions Collective Bargaining Rights “Unthinkable and Intolerable.”"

What was the context? That wouldn't happen to have been during WWII would it?

689 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:12:35pm

re: #681 palomino

But, honestly, has Obama done anything that could be fairly characterized as socialist?

He's rich. His kids go to a rich school. His fuckn' dog is a rich dog.

690 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:12:36pm

re: #666 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Like I said, why join the union when you're not getting anything out of it? Especially when the management is telling you that if you vote against it next time it comes up for recertification, you'll get a nice juicy bonus in your next paycheck?

So workers should be forced to be in unions even if the majority doesn't want to be? You are making it sound like no one will want to be in a union, and yet they should be forced to.

691 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:12:40pm

re: #683 Walter L. Newton

A comment in the NYT thread:

The snippet from FDR that Mr. Sherk quotes is from a letter that also includes the following paragraph:

"The desire of Government employees for fair and adequate pay, reasonable hours of work, safe and suitable working conditions, development of opportunities for advancement, facilities for fair and impartial consideration and review of grievances, and other objectives of a proper employee relations policy, is basically no different from that of employees in private industry. Organization on their part to present their views on such matters is both natural and logical, but meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government."

692 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:13:03pm

re: #688 Gus 802

What was the context? That wouldn't happen to have been during WWII would it?

Even President Franklin Roosevelt, a friend of private-sector unionism, drew a line when it came to government workers: “Meticulous attention,” the president insisted in 1937, “should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government….The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service.” The reason? F.D.R. believed that “[a] strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied. Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable.”

693 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:13:21pm

re: #685 freetoken

IMO, no. Or at least, no more so than any preceding President.

According to the American far-right Eisenhower and Nixon were socialists.

694 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:13:23pm

re: #657 Dark_Falcon

recusancy, PLL, was what I said wrong? I was trying for a balanced and reasonable analysis of FDR, and I took care to keep everything supportable.

695 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:13:50pm

re: #668 Surabaya Stew

I'm favoring Albania, Turkey, Morocco, and Bangladesh in the Muslim World, and Canada, Norway, Sweden, and Finland otherwise.

696 justaminute  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:13:52pm

Don't forget the Republican Congress is putting my fellow Americans, Muslim Americans, on trial tomorrow.

697 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:13:56pm

re: #691 jaunte

A comment in the NYT thread:

You stopped short of the rest of that quote... didn't you? "The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service.”"

"

698 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:14:20pm

re: #688 Gus 802

What was the context? That wouldn't happen to have been during WWII would it?

No, he said it in 1937.

699 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:14:41pm

re: #675 Buck

Come on, you know what really happened...he didn't skip the state for 3 weeks... Come on, tell the rest of the story...

He didn't skip the state because not enough people followed his example so the other side had enough people trapped inside the building to get a Quorum....

So yeah...

700 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:14:46pm

re: #182 moderatelyradicalliberal

Oh shit, I'm a slave! Talk about lack of worker's rights.

I need a plane ticket to Canada!

//

Damn. I just lost the vote. Plus, now I'm an 'Asiatic'.

701 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:14:59pm

re: #692 Walter L. Newton

an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied.


That would be like 'shutting down the government.'

702 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:15:13pm

re: #686 HappyWarrior

Yeah I have noticed that come to think of it. It's just, I re-read my paper I wrote on Nixon a couple years ago and man does that guy look like a liberal.

Yeah, EPA, affrimative action, tried to pass universal health insurance, etc. It's easy to forget that the dividing line between liberals and conservatives was more regional than partisan. Plenty of R's were liberals and plenty of conservatives were D's, but either way the conservatives were almost always on the wrong side of history and they often still are.

703 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:15:15pm

re: #692 Walter L. Newton

Even President Franklin Roosevelt, a friend of private-sector unionism, drew a line when it came to government workers: “Meticulous attention,” the president insisted in 1937, “should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government….The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service.” The reason? F.D.R. believed that “[a] strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied. Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable.”

He also drew a line when it came to race. Some things he wasn't very progressive on.

704 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:15:31pm

re: #692 Walter L. Newton

re: #698 Dark_Falcon

OK. So, what's the point? FDR wasn't a fan of collective bargaining for public employees.

705 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:15:47pm

re: #192 abbyadams

I already know all the words to O Canada, and hockey's my favorite sport. In preparation.

I only know a bit of "O Canada" because they sang it in the episode of West Wing where Donna became a Canadian for a couple of hours.

706 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:15:56pm

re: #703 recusancy

He also drew a line when it came to race. Some things he wasn't very progressive on.

Tap... tap... tap...

707 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:15:57pm

re: #603 negativ

Fair and balanced headline

[Link: nation.foxnews.com...]

To Fox, it's only balanced when the news is weighted heavily in favour of the right.

They're trying to counter their perception of all the left leaning the MSM does, all by themselves. Take 15 MSM sources, each with a weighting of 55/45 left/right and Fox figures it has to go 0/150 left/right.

708 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:16:01pm

re: #679 moderatelyradicalliberal

I don't know if you have noticed, but every GOP president aside form Reagan has been declared a progressive and is not longer admired by the GOP rank and file.

//kinda

not to mention the probable nominee of the republican party in 2012

709 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:16:05pm

re: #671 ProLifeLiberal

Your the one making shit up here. For one, ther has been no violence at the protests. This has been a transparent attempt to shove us back to the 19th century by crippling the unions to the point of non-existance. Your side must be defeated.

They eventually will be defeated, but it's gonna take a long time. Decades for America's changes to really kick in. And it's gonna be really ugly in the meantime.

710 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:16:09pm

re: #694 Dark_Falcon

Because the reason for the double dip during the Great Depression was the fact that programs were cut. Things were generally getting better until that point. Also, I'm slightly ticked right now, so I'm twitchy with the dinger.

711 freetoken  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:16:25pm

It should be noted that federal government employees (and the few unions that exist that service them) do not negotiate for wages or benefits, but that they are set by Congress.

Teachers working for local school districts are a different kind of thing.

Some people are mixing apples and oranges here.

712 andres  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:16:29pm

re: #650 Buck

You can only assume that you can make shit up, and people will believe you.

Let's be honest: you have never cared about facts. You look for tangents to derail, and deny when call upon.

713 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:16:42pm

re: #665 jamesfirecat

Abraham Lincoln once jumped out a window (second story one at that point) to try and deny his political opponents a Quorum after the other side locked the doors to the capital window.

Did he act undemocratically?

Seriously.... tell the rest of the story... did it work? Did he block the bill?

I know the answer, but by posting only the first half, you are cheating everyone else...

714 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:16:44pm

re: #677 wlewisiii

Because St. Ronnie was the ultimate opportunist. When it was expedient to praise unions (Poland), he did so, when it necessary to do buisness, he joined (SAG), when it was expedient for them to be bad guys, they were (PATCO).

He only gave a rats ass about wealth and power.

He didn't just join SAG, he was their president for years. He was the union rep when negotiating with the studios for health care and retirement benefits.

715 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:17:01pm

re: #689 Decatur Deb

He's rich. His kids go to a rich school. His fuckn' dog is a rich dog.

But it's the same breed of dog Teddy Kennedy had, so Obama much be a socialist.

716 prairiefire  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:17:11pm

re: #689 Decatur Deb

He's rich. His kids go to a rich school. His fuckn' dog is a rich dog.

Portuguese Water dog? WTH?

717 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:17:15pm

re: #712 andres

Let's be honest: you have never cared about facts. You look for tangents to derail, and deny when call upon.

You don't know me at all. I am all about the facts.

718 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:17:27pm

re: #611 palomino

Not Obama, that's for sure.

Bernie Sanders of VT.

I would really like a conservative give a definition of socialist. Really.

719 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:17:33pm

Hey. Might as well throw in military contractor employees while we're at it. Some unions went on strike during WWII. Of course the context then was an extreme national emergency. Logically the next step would be to strip all federal contact employees from collective bargaining and thus begin the end of those unions as well. So, tell that to the people building our ships and aircraft for the armed services?

720 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:17:38pm

re: #690 Buck

So workers should be forced to be in unions even if the majority doesn't want to be? You are making it sound like no one will want to be in a union, and yet they should be forced to.

If the majority don't want to be a union, then they file a petition with the NLRB to hold a decertification vote. If you're in the minority and don't like that, then feel free to seek employment elsewhere.

721 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:17:38pm

re: #215 Lidane

And suddenly, a potential summer internship abroad is looking like a good idea. I think I need a mental health break from this country for a while.

Nonsense. America is good for you. It keeps you on your toes.

722 Kragar  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:17:50pm

re: #705 SanFranciscoZionist

I only know a bit of "O Canada" because they sang it in the episode of West Wing where Donna became a Canadian for a couple of hours.

O Canada, O Canada,
Thy leaves are so unchanging;
O Canada! O Canada!
Thy candles shine so brightly!

Wait, that's the Christmas tree song.

723 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:18:04pm

re: #703 recusancy

He also drew a line when it came to race. Some things he wasn't very progressive on.

Civil liberties too.

724 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:18:26pm

re: #720 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

If the majority don't want to be a union, then they file a petition with the NLRB to hold a decertification vote. If you're in the minority and don't like that, then feel free to seek employment elsewhere.

OK, this bill does not change that at all.

725 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:18:36pm

re: #707 b_sharp

To Fox, it's only balanced when the news is weighted heavily in favour of the right.

They're trying to counter their perception of all the left leaning the MSM does, all by themselves. Take 15 MSM sources, each with a weighting of 55/45 left/right and Fox figures it has to go 0/150 left/right.

Fox News is also color blind.

They only see varying shades of white.

//

726 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:18:52pm

re: #221 wozzablog

Half of all children in CA are now Latino... thats a bunch of house seats gone in a dozen years is the GOP continue the way they are.

Unless the GOP tack center and pretty fucking soon they will have no constituency left. Old white men only live so long.

The Latinos are a natural GOP constituency, but they're going to have to work for it. So far, they're working in the other direction.

727 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:18:55pm

re: #692 Walter L. Newton

Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable.”

Wonder what he would say about the GOP house that is demanding budget cuts or else they won't fund the government....

728 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:19:13pm

re: #702 moderatelyradicalliberal

Yeah, EPA, affrimative action, tried to pass universal health insurance, etc. It's easy to forget that the dividing line between liberals and conservatives was more regional than partisan. Plenty of R's were liberals and plenty of conservatives were D's, but either way the conservatives were almost always on the wrong side of history and they often still are.

Yeah, I am telling you I was astounded at some of the stuff I learned writing that paper.I mean the guy was a huge jerk but I took great pleasure in showing just how far we've come where a guy like Nixon looks a liberal. We don't need big or small government I feel ultimately, I feel we need smart government.

729 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:19:56pm

re: #723 moderatelyradicalliberal

Yeah, I'm thinking of our internament of Japanese in WWII (is there anything else I'm not thinking of?). FDR may have been a good president, but he had MAJOR flaws.

730 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:20:28pm

And JFK was a hawk by today's liberal Democrat standards.

Next!

731 andres  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:20:31pm

re: #717 Buck

You don't know me at all. I am all about the facts.

You're right. And I'm tall, blonde with a perfect Scottish accent.

732 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:20:40pm

re: #716 prairiefire

Portuguese Water dog? WTH?

My wife and I have one. We got it before the Obamas. It's a great breed, they were bred to herd fish into nets and retrieve. Filled with energy, loves to swim, has webbed feet. Best of all, no shedding so hypoallergenic (as much as a dog can be anyway).

733 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:20:44pm

re: #727 jamesfirecat

Wonder what he would say about the GOP house that is demanding budget cuts or else they won't fund the government...

They have to get the votes to do it....big difference. Having the votes is democracy.

734 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:20:46pm

re: #724 Buck

OK, this bill does not change that at all.

No, because now the minority doesn't need to build up support to decertify a union. They just wait until apathy sets in and folks get tired of being part of a union that's unable to do squat but "bargain" for pay raises that are tied to COLA. Then, when 51% of the folks in that union decide that the union is too pointless to continue existing, they just vote to dissolve it at the next recertification vote.

735 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:20:59pm

re: #703 recusancy

He also drew a line when it came to race. Some things he wasn't very progressive on.

He had to. It's important to remember that the South of the 1930's was openly racist and many of its senators and congressmen reflected that fact. FDR had to deal with the Democratic party of his time and that party still had a large racist component.

736 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:21:22pm

re: #727 jamesfirecat

Wonder what he would say about the GOP house that is demanding budget cuts or else they won't fund the government...

Ask him.

737 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:21:26pm

re: #729 ProLifeLiberal

Yeah, I'm thinking of our internament of Japanese in WWII (is there anything else I'm not thinking of?). FDR may have been a good president, but he had MAJOR flaws.

Would his silence on lynching count? After all lynchings prevented many people from receiving not just fair trials but trials period.

738 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:21:31pm

re: #718 b_sharp

I would really like a conservative give a definition of socialist. Really.

Anyone to their left.

739 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:21:42pm

re: #729 ProLifeLiberal

Arguments from authority aren't what they used to be.

740 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:22:21pm

re: #736 Walter L. Newton

Ask him.

He's dead Jim.

741 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:22:23pm

re: #727 jamesfirecat

Wonder what he would say about the GOP house that is demanding budget cuts or else they won't fund the government...

I wonder why you are suddenly changing the subject from FDR and unions to something else?

742 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:22:25pm

re: #696 justaminute

Don't forget the Republican Congress is putting my fellow Americans, Muslim Americans, on trial tomorrow.

I wish I could get them to call some of the Iraqis I worked with.

743 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:23:02pm

re: #714 sagehen

He didn't just join SAG, he was their president for years. He was the union rep when negotiating with the studios for health care and retirement benefits.

As I said, when necessary, he did anything he had to do, to do business. St. Ronnie was the nearly perfect hypocrite.

744 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:23:09pm

re: #726 SanFranciscoZionist

The Latinos are a natural GOP constituency, but they're going to have to work for it. So far, they're working in the other direction.

Well, they have the ability to go the right way. Marco Rubio proved that, but he needs to get the rest of the party around to his line of thinking on Latinos.

745 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:23:29pm

re: #653 wlewisiii

Really? See [Link: www.dsausa.org...] for examples of modern Democratic Socialism in America.

Thanks for the link, but I'm more interested in what definition the right uses. I suspect it contains a shit load of straw.

746 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:23:33pm

re: #733 Buck

Respect for the minority is another facet of democracy. One you seem to be failing to catch. Republicans in Congress are having a problem with it too, as they seem to be going after every minority right now. Muslims are next in Congress. I hope any Muslim brought up ther is going bring up his past with the IRA.

747 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:23:52pm

re: #718 b_sharp

I would really like a conservative give a definition of socialist. Really.

On what day? Hard to tell any more. None of them are really speaking out against the extremists like Beck and Limbaugh. So if you use their standards and the standards of the religious right and the Tea Party extremists. Take a look at what doesn't make some folks a conservative according to them. Those that support gay marriage, abortion, Randian pseudo-economics.

748 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:24:16pm

re: #695 ProLifeLiberal

I'm favoring Albania, Turkey, Morocco, and Bangladesh in the Muslim World, and Canada, Norway, Sweden, and Finland otherwise.

For 1st world options, I'd choose Hong Kong myself. Closest thing to my beloved NYC in the world, IMHO. But my heart is set on the country with 17,000 islands and 300 languages.

749 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:24:20pm

re: #741 Walter L. Newton

I wonder why you are suddenly changing the subject from FDR and unions to something else?

I just thought it was an interesting point to make.

Either way, you were the one who changed the subject to FDR in the first place.

I respect and like a lot about FDR, but I don't feel the need to take his words and actions as what 100% must be the baseline for democrats.

I disagree with him over his thought on public sector unions.

I also disagree with him over the interment of Japanese Americans.

750 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:24:36pm

re: #746 ProLifeLiberal

Respect for the minority is another facet of democracy. One you seem to be failing to catch. Republicans in Congress are having a problem with it too, as they seem to be going after every minority right now. Muslims are next in Congress. I hope any Muslim brought up ther is going bring up his past with the IRA.

Minorities? The 14 dems are minorities? You are mixing up your terms.

751 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:24:53pm

re: #734 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

No, because now the minority doesn't need to build up support to decertify a union. They just wait until apathy sets in and folks get tired of being part of a union that's unable to do squat but "bargain" for pay raises that are tied to COLA. Then, when 51% of the folks in that union decide that the union is too pointless to continue existing, they just vote to dissolve it at the next recertification vote.

It's not just counting people who vote yes against people who vote no; people who don't send back their ballot count as a vote to dissolve.

752 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:25:08pm

re: #737 HappyWarrior

Why didn't I think of that. Well, I think that's a stupid moment on my part.

753 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:25:34pm

re: #726 SanFranciscoZionist

The Latinos are a natural GOP constituency, but they're going to have to work for it. So far, they're working in the other direction.

Why do you see them as a natural gop constituency? Even before the latest gop lurch to the xenophobic right, Hispanics traditionally voted Democrat. It was seen as a huge victory for Bush that he got 35% of the Hispanic vote.

754 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:25:56pm

re: #681 palomino

But, honestly, has Obama done anything that could be fairly characterized as socialist?

Socialist as I believe the right uses it? No. Not at all.

755 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:26:07pm

re: #749 jamesfirecat

I just thought it was an interesting point to make.

Either way, you were the one who changed the subject to FDR in the first place.

I respect and like a lot about FDR, but I don't feel the need to take his words and actions as what 100% must be the baseline for democrats.

I disagree with him over his thought on public sector unions.

I also disagree with him over the interment of Japanese Americans.

No... we were talking about public unions and collective bargaining, weren't we. Where have you been? I didn't change jack shit.

756 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:26:10pm

re: #746 ProLifeLiberal

Respect for the minority is another facet of democracy. One you seem to be failing to catch. Republicans in Congress are having a problem with it too, as they seem to be going after every minority right now. Muslims are next in Congress. I hope any Muslim brought up ther is going bring up his past with the IRA.

OK, on second thought... respect for the minority should be the most important part of democracy. AND as McCain got the minority of the votes in the 2008 election, he should be president. Its only fair.

//////////////////////////////////

757 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:26:22pm

re: #729 ProLifeLiberal

Yeah, I'm thinking of our internament of Japanese in WWII (is there anything else I'm not thinking of?). FDR may have been a good president, but he had MAJOR flaws.

He didn't sign an anti-lynching bill that would have made terrorism against blacks a federal crime and allowed Southern Democrats to exclude domestic and farm workers (blacks) from many New Deal programs like Social Security. He also didn't allow Jews into the US who were trying to escape the coming Holocaust. I don't say this to degrade him, but to simply point out that there has never been a perfectly progressive American President. It comes in handy when manic-progressives lament the fact that Obama isn't quite FDR.

758 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:26:29pm

re: #750 Buck

Minorities? The 14 dems are minorities? You are mixing up your terms.

The 14 dems are in the minority.

The same way that the 41 Republicans in the Senate were in the minority and yet managed to "outvote" the Democrats on many issues.

759 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:26:35pm

re: #753 palomino

Why do you see them as a natural gop constituency? Even before the latest gop lurch to the xenophobic right, Hispanics traditionally voted Democrat. It was seen as a huge victory for Bush that he got 35% of the Hispanic vote.

Maybe the religious conservatism.

760 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:27:06pm

I love credit card companies!

/

761 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:27:11pm

re: #700 SanFranciscoZionist

Damn. I just lost the vote. Plus, now I'm an 'Asiatic'.

Huh?

762 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:27:27pm

re: #752 ProLifeLiberal

Why didn't I think of that. Well, I think that's a stupid moment on my part.

Well, it happens that it's one of the things I like least about FDR :). Conversely, it's one of the things I like most about Truman. Truman condemned lynchings as president and it pissed the hell out of what became the Dixiecrats. He pointed out that he (Truman) was the descendant of Confederates and it horrified him to hear of Black American WWII vets being lynched in uniform. Hell my family became Democrats in large part because of FDR And the New Deal but he was a coward on that issue for refusing to condemn lynching.

763 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:27:42pm

re: #760 Gus 802

I love credit card companies!

/

Why... what did they do to you?

764 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:27:51pm

re: #732 palomino

My wife and I have one. We got it before the Obamas. It's a great breed, they were bred to herd fish into nets and retrieve. Filled with energy, loves to swim, has webbed feet. Best of all, no shedding so hypoallergenic (as much as a dog can be anyway).

That's why they got him. Their oldest daughter has dog allergies so they couldn't get a mutt from the shelter.

765 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:27:54pm

I love real estate speculators! Gentrification of neighborhoods is wonderful!

//

766 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:28:05pm

I love collection agencies!

767 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:28:08pm

re: #755 Walter L. Newton

No... we were talking about public unions and collective bargaining, weren't we. Where have you been? I didn't change jack shit.

We were talking about unions yes, but you were the one who brought up a Politician who has been dead for 70 years...

768 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:28:08pm

re: #750 Buck

Minorities both politically, and in the ethnic and religous ways. Generally, in Liberal Democracies, you respect their rights, and try to compromise with them if needed in legislature in politics, and other meanings, they are given the normal freedoms everyone has. You seem to like the idea of tyranny of the majority.

769 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:28:16pm

re: #705 SanFranciscoZionist

I only know a bit of "O Canada" because they sang it in the episode of West Wing where Donna became a Canadian for a couple of hours.

I don't know all the words to 'Oh Canuckville'.

770 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:28:23pm

re: #763 Walter L. Newton

Why... what did they do to you?

Oh. I'm just doing my Teabagger impersonation.

771 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:29:12pm

re: #722 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

O Canada, O Canada,
Thy leaves are so unchanging;
O Canada! O Canada!
Thy candles shine so brightly!

Wait, that's the Christmas tree song.

Works for me.

772 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:29:16pm

re: #758 jamesfirecat

The 14 dems are in the minority.

The same way that the 41 Republicans in the Senate were in the minority and yet managed to "outvote" the Democrats on many issues.

BECAUSE they got the votes! Are you really that stupid? There were Democrats that voted with them (Blue Dogs).... They didn't skip the country, or threaten to force their way.

THEY GOT THE VOTES!!!!!!

773 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:29:24pm

I think we should bring back debtors prisons. Repeal the Civil Rights Act of 1964. And outlaw bankruptcy.

//Teabagger

774 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:30:16pm

Protestant Christianity should be the official state religion.

//Teabagger

775 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:30:18pm

'Nite, all. Won't be on much for a week.

776 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:30:47pm

re: #756 Buck

Notice,how in the last Congrss, the Democrats tried to negotiate a reasonable compromise on Health Care?

Didn't think you did.

777 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:30:49pm

re: #772 Buck

BECAUSE they got the votes! Are you really that stupid? There were Democrats that voted with them (Blue Dogs)... They didn't skip the country, or threaten to force their way.

THEY GOT THE VOTES!!!

The Democrats can't filibuster on the state senate level but they can deny the Republicans a Quorum.

Are you opposed to the idea of needing a Quorum?

778 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:30:50pm

re: #767 jamesfirecat

We were talking about unions yes, but you were the one who brought up a Politician who has been dead for 70 years...

Is that any different than someone bringing up Hitler? He's fucking dead too, isn't he... I think I saw this up thread...

They sure did Walter.

"We must close union offices. Confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike!" -Adolf Hitler (#109 Tigger2)

So... what's your point?

779 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:31:06pm

re: #768 ProLifeLiberal

Minorities both politically, and in the ethnic and religous ways. Generally, in Liberal Democracies, you respect their rights, and try to compromise with them if needed in legislature in politics, and other meanings, they are given the normal freedoms everyone has. You seem to like the idea of tyranny of the majority.

OK, so the loser of the election should be given more votes.... to make it even and that is respect...

/that is the craziest shit I have ever heard. And I have heard a lot of crazy shit.

780 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:31:07pm

re: #757 moderatelyradicalliberal

He didn't sign an anti-lynching bill that would have made terrorism against blacks a federal crime and allowed Southern Democrats to exclude domestic and farm workers (blacks) from many New Deal programs like Social Security. He also didn't allow Jews into the US who were trying to escape the coming Holocaust. I don't say this to degrade him, but to simply point out that there has never been a perfectly progressive American President. It comes in handy when manic-progressives lament the fact that Obama isn't quite FDR.

Shit, I forgot it was an actual law that he forgot to sign even worse. Honestly, there's a lot I like about FDR but there's a lot that's left to be desired too. I've noticed that too by the way with some progressives who bemoan the fact that Democrats of today aren't FDR. FDR had a lot of great thingsg he did (his wartime leadership is right up there with Lincoln in US history) but he had a lot of other prolbems too. A lot of people on the left were upset when Bush II criticized FDR for Yalta and his naivete regarding Stalin. I was not among them. Also don't like the court packing plan he tried. Just comes across as desperate and pathetic.

781 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:31:11pm

re: #770 Gus 802

Oh. I'm just doing my Teabagger impersonation.

Stunk.

782 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:31:23pm

re: #774 Gus 802

Protestant Christianity should be the official state religion.

//Teabagger

Which version of Protestant Christianity?

(Runs for cover)

783 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:31:24pm

re: #738 palomino

Anyone to their left.

That's what I think too. Any chance they will admit it?

784 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:31:26pm

In order to save money. We should let people that don't have health insurance die.

/Teabagger

785 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:31:33pm

re: #776 ProLifeLiberal

Notice,how in the last Congrss, the Democrats tried to negotiate a reasonable compromise on Health Care?

Didn't think you did.

THEY DIDN"T... funny that you think they did.

786 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:32:10pm

re: #778 Walter L. Newton

Is that any different than someone bringing up Hitler? He's fucking dead too, isn't he... I think I saw this up thread...

So... what's your point?

I got nothing Walter, you're right I did meander pointlessly in my previous post.

787 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:32:17pm

re: #767 jamesfirecat

The Heritage Foundation argumnet that is being supported by FDR's quote is this:

The founders of the labor movement viewed unions as a vehicle to get workers more of the profits they help create. Government workers, however, don’t generate profits. They merely negotiate for more tax money. When government unions strike, they strike against taxpayers. F.D.R. considered this “unthinkable and intolerable.”


...but that argument depends on the fallacious assumption that union workers add no value to the society by doing their jobs, and are simply an expense sucking up tax money.

788 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:32:28pm

re: #759 recusancy

Maybe the religious conservatism.

Which is largely a generational thing. Younger Hispanics here in Cali were actually slightly MORE likely to vote in favor of gay marriage than their white counterparts. They may largely still agree with the Church's teachings on abortion, but there's a great deal of Catholic theology on social/economic justice and war in general that leans decidedly left.

789 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:32:53pm

re: #503 recusancy

I give you 6 months.

Nah, dude. Dark's diametrically opposed to me on most domestic issues, but he's careful about keeping his feet out of the crazy.

790 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:33:15pm

re: #744 Dark_Falcon

Well, they have the ability to go the right way. Marco Rubio proved that, but he needs to get the rest of the party around to his line of thinking on Latinos.

I don't mean to diminish Rubio being a minority Senator, but he's from Florida and a member of a Latino group that already votes Republican. In other states were GOP Latinos won statewide elections, they didn't win a majority of Latinos votes. They did about as poorly as white GOP candidates. I'm afraid Rubio is still an anomaly and not necessarily a litmus test for the GOP's future with Latinos.

791 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:33:19pm

re: #764 moderatelyradicalliberal

That's why they got him. Their oldest daughter has dog allergies so they couldn't get a mutt from the shelter.

Yeah, I remember Obama saying, "I'm a mutt and we'd like to get one from a shelter, but..."

792 blueraven  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:33:47pm

re: #736 Walter L. Newton

Ask him.

From the NYT artcile posted...a comment

As is typical with right wing talking points from places like the Heritage Foundation, Mr. Sherk has taken a single snippet of a quote out of context to suggest that FDR was against public employee unions. In fact, all FDR was against was public employees striking, which is a far different question than the issue of whether public employees should have the right to negotiate and bargain collectively over their wages, benefits, and working conditions.

The snippet from FDR that Mr. Sherk quotes is from a letter that also includes the following paragraph:

"The desire of Government employees for fair and adequate pay, reasonable hours of work, safe and suitable working conditions, development of opportunities for advancement, facilities for fair and impartial consideration and review of grievances, and other objectives of a proper employee relations policy, is basically no different from that of employees in private industry. Organization on their part to present their views on such matters is both natural and logical, but meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government."

[Link: www.presidency.ucsb.edu......]

I'll leave it to the reader to decide where they think FDR stands.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

793 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:34:22pm

re: #781 Walter L. Newton

Stunk.

It was kind of an inside joke. If you recall I remember when I first started calling out credit card companies here at LGF I remember many of the members that are now gone used to jump to their defense. It was pretty funny to watch so many credit card company lackies that used to populate this place.

794 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:34:27pm

re: #747 Gus 802

On what day? Hard to tell any more. None of them are really speaking out against the extremists like Beck and Limbaugh. So if you use their standards and the standards of the religious right and the Tea Party extremists. Take a look at what doesn't make some folks a conservative according to them. Those that support gay marriage, abortion, Randian pseudo-economics.

From my perspective, the highly visible right is trying their damnedest to go back to tribes, largely patterned on our chimp cousins.

795 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:34:34pm

re: #777 jamesfirecat

The Democrats can't filibuster on the state senate level but they can deny the Republicans a Quorum.

Are you opposed to the idea of needing a Quorum?

Can you really not think of a better, more democratic way, to effect the change you want in a state senate? Or is take my ball and bat and leave the best way?

796 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:34:53pm

re: #783 b_sharp

That's what I think too. Any chance they will admit it?

No, the word is loaded with shock value, especially with older voters conditioned to associate it with Russia.

797 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:34:55pm

Ah, too long for here.
My page to quote my priest about this mess is here:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Amen.

798 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:35:16pm

re: #795 Buck

Can you really not think of a better, more democratic way, to effect the change you want in a state senate? Or is take my ball and bat and leave the best way?

Okay then.

Do you also oppose the Senate Filibuster?

799 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:35:20pm

re: #788 palomino

Which is largely a generational thing. Younger Hispanics here in Cali were actually slightly MORE likely to vote in favor of gay marriage than their white counterparts. They may largely still agree with the Church's teachings on abortion, but there's a great deal of Catholic theology on social/economic justice and war in general that leans decidedly left.

I didn't know that about Hispanic youth voters. Not too surprised I guess since youth voters as a whole tend to be much more socially liberal than older ones. And it's because of that very fact that I think the GOP is stupid as hell for wanting to stick with rigid social conservatism. They're as stubborn as the liberals who in the 1970's wanting to stick with a New Deal outlook.

800 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:36:10pm

re: #779 Buck

No, I'm saying that when the majority is trying to get legislation through alegislative body, the majority must take into accont the minority, especially when the Minority has the power to hold up things in said body. The Republicans seem to have a problem comprehending this.

I'm hoping your being purposely obtuse on this.

801 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:36:14pm

re: #794 b_sharp

From my perspective, the highly visible right is trying their damnedest to go back to tribes, largely patterned on our chimp cousins.

That's part of the revanchist value principles. Most of it is based on white trash cultural values that have become almost genetically ingrained.

802 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:36:55pm

re: #799 HappyWarrior

I didn't know that about Hispanic youth voters. Not too surprised I guess since youth voters as a whole tend to be much more socially liberal than older ones. And it's because of that very fact that I think the GOP is stupid as hell for wanting to stick with rigid social conservatism. They're as stubborn as the liberals who in the 1970's wanting to stick with a New Deal outlook.

Like I heard growing up in Texas, "You gotta dance with the one that brought you."

803 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:37:29pm

re: #756 Buck

OK, on second thought... respect for the minority should be the most important part of democracy. AND as McCain got the minority of the votes in the 2008 election, he should be president. Its only fair.

///

Generally reductio ad absurdum requires a logical connection. I think you screwed up.

804 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:37:59pm

Keep taxes for the rich low! Someday I might win the lottery.

//Murican

805 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:38:16pm

re: #607 jamesfirecat

Ahh.

Maybe if we keep at it we can also force them to admit where they buried Jimmy Hoffa?

Mario Batalli gave that up on the Daily Show last night.

806 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:38:31pm

re: #774 Gus 802

Protestant Christianity should be the official state religion.

//Teabagger

Sorry, I understand your sarc. But I am a protestant christian of the Episcopalian flavor. I will not surrender the catholic faith to them!

807 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:39:16pm

re: #798 jamesfirecat

Okay then.

Do you also oppose the Senate Filibuster?

IF I was so sure of my position, that the voters of the state would support me, and my view I would find away to mobilize voters to call and right their representatives and express their opinion. IF I could not get the support, then I would vote my conscience knowing that a NAY vote shows my opposition publicly . BUT trying to force my clearly unpopular view on the state would be wrong.

808 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:39:24pm

re: #793 Gus 802

It was kind of an inside joke. If you recall I remember when I first started calling out credit card companies here at LGF I remember many of the members that are now gone used to jump to their defense. It was pretty funny to watch so many credit card company lackies that used to populate this place.

Ok... I don't think there is anything wrong with credit card companies. And I don't find it at all difficult to understand that if you have a card, and use it, you are going to pay a lot of money for that privilege. And I easily understand that you can get into a lot of financial trouble using a credit card. The interests rates, the rules, the clever fees and penalties all work against the credit card holder and the user of the card can place themselves in a very precarious financial situation.

Is that what you meant?

809 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:39:26pm

re: #766 Gus 802

I love collection agencies!

I love zombies, but I wouldn't invite one to dinner.

I wrote a database program called Apollo for a credit company.

I have no ethics.

810 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:40:19pm

re: #807 Buck

IF I was so sure of my position, that the voters of the state would support me, and my view I would find away to mobilize voters to call and right their representatives and express their opinion. IF I could not get the support, then I would vote my conscience knowing that a NAY vote shows my opposition publicly . BUT trying to force my clearly unpopular view on the state would be wrong.

So you believe that in whatever the situation barring things that the rules expressly say should take 2/3rds or some other percentage to pass the elected majority should be able to have its way.

Am I correct?

811 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:40:29pm

re: #806 wlewisiii

Sorry, I understand your sarc. But I am a protestant christian of the Episcopalian flavor. I will not surrender the catholic faith to them!

Cool beans. You know what I mean though. I grew up during the old school days when Catholics were still considered a bit of outsiders. I grew up a Catholic until I was about 8 years old and pulled a silent Hitchens. Heck, I remember we also grew up hearing "the Jews killed Jesus!" over and over again.

I'm rambling.

812 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:40:33pm

re: #807 Buck

IF I was so sure of my position, that the voters of the state would support me, and my view I would find away to mobilize voters to call and right their representatives and express their opinion. IF I could not get the support, then I would vote my conscience knowing that a NAY vote shows my opposition publicly . BUT trying to force my clearly unpopular view on the state would be wrong.


Um, that's what Scott Walker just did.

813 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:40:59pm

Why do people continue to engage Buck??

814 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:41:17pm

re: #803 b_sharp

Generally reductio ad absurdum requires a logical connection. I think you screwed up.

Why the person I was replying to said that the minorities should be given their way because they are the minority. And they were talking about the dem 14. Who didn't have the votes, but should be able to decide state policy anyway.

815 jaunte  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:41:31pm

Now is the time when we watch SanFranciscoZionist make her way through the thread...

816 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:41:46pm

re: #807 Buck

IF I was so sure of my position, that the voters of the state would support me, and my view I would find away to mobilize voters to call and right their representatives and express their opinion. IF I could not get the support, then I would vote my conscience knowing that a NAY vote shows my opposition publicly . BUT trying to force my clearly unpopular view on the state would be wrong.

so you oppose governer walker forcing his clearly unpopular view on the state of wisconsin?

817 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:41:59pm

re: #773 Gus 802

I see that Gus is rollin' like Bluto in Animal House.

/That's not an insult, BTW.

818 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:42:02pm

re: #809 b_sharp

I love zombies, but I wouldn't invite one to dinner.

I wrote a database program called Apollo for a credit company.

I have no ethics.

Damn you! Oh well. I actually have done some gentrification projects too. One had the potential to displace a lot of poor people. Of course, I didn't make any big money by any means. Most I ever got for any project in my life has been 5K. And that was like pulling teeth.

819 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:42:19pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

re: #506 prononymous

Hmm, I seem to recall republicans getting into office on the premise that they were going to fix something or another...

re: #522 Dark_Falcon

They're working on the budget now. Congressman Ryan is even now working on the GOP's budget proposal for next year.

So? Is this a tacit admission that the republicans wont fix the economy?

820 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:42:27pm

re: #810 jamesfirecat

So you believe that in whatever the situation barring things that the rules expressly say should take 2/3rds or some other percentage to pass the elected majority should be able to have its way.

Am I correct?

I don't know what you are talking about, but yes.... NOT showing up is NOT the same thing as not voting, it is a dodge.

821 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:42:35pm

re: #818 Gus 802

Damn you! Oh well. I actually have done some gentrification projects too. One had the potential to displace a lot of poor people. Of course, I didn't make any big money by any means. Most I ever got for any project in my life has been 5K. And that was like pulling teeth.

What do/did you do?

822 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:42:37pm

re: #807 Buck

IF I was so sure of my position, that the voters of the state would support me, and my view I would find away to mobilize voters to call and right their representatives and express their opinion. IF I could not get the support, then I would vote my conscience knowing that a NAY vote shows my opposition publicly . BUT trying to force my clearly unpopular view on the state would be wrong.


The runaway dems have seen their approval ratings go up every single day since they've been gone, while the governor's has gone down every single day. Does that tell you something about what the people of Wisconsin think of this bill?

823 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:42:43pm

re: #817 Dark_Falcon

I see that Gus is rollin' like Bluto in Animal House.

/That's not an insult, BTW.

Toga! Toga! Toga!

824 Digital Display  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:42:55pm

re: #815 jaunte

Now is the time when we watch SanFranciscoZionist make her way through the thread...

She is the Lizard whisperer

825 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:43:10pm

re: #817 Dark_Falcon

I see that Gus is rollin' like Bluto in Animal House.

/That's not an insult, BTW.

A little bit. I'm sipping the whisky. Been bummed out all day and I think I'm running a fever.

826 blueraven  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:43:19pm

re: #792 blueraven

ooops...correct link

FDR Letter on the Resolution of Federation of Federal Employees Against Strikes in Federal Service

Read more at the American Presidency Project: [Link: www.presidency.ucsb.edu...]

827 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:43:30pm

re: #796 palomino

No, the word is loaded with shock value, especially with older voters conditioned to associate it with Russia.

The USSR was totalitarian, statist and communist, not socialist.

828 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:43:33pm

re: #820 Buck

I don't know what you are talking about, but yes... NOT showing up is NOT the same thing as not voting, it is a dodge.

Okay.

Just to be clear, do you support the minitority's right to filibuster in the Unite Sates Senate?

829 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:43:49pm

re: #816 engineer dog

so you oppose governer walker forcing his clearly unpopular view on the state of wisconsin?

He has the votes. The idea that the voters are stupid, and elected him and the other republicans in a drunken stupor doesn't work for me.

830 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:43:59pm

re: #824 HoosierHoops

This thread is getting a little long. My computer is lagging in showing wwhat I'm typing.

831 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:44:05pm

re: #821 recusancy

What do/did you do?

Mostly I do what an architect does but I don't sell myself as one.

832 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:44:15pm

Good night all. The vodka has made me sleepy. ;)

833 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:44:51pm

re: #829 Buck

He has the votes. The idea that the voters are stupid, and elected him and the other republicans in a drunken stupor doesn't work for me.

How about the idea that he never talked about his plan to limit Unions rights until after he was elected.

Does that idea work for you?

834 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:45:18pm

re: #818 Gus 802

Damn you! Oh well. I actually have done some gentrification projects too. One had the potential to displace a lot of poor people. Of course, I didn't make any big money by any means. Most I ever got for any project in my life has been 5K. And that was like pulling teeth.

Gus... you got to think bigger than that. How about some of those shelters on Colfax? You should be able to go to the ciry with some drawings and proposals to tear those ugly eyesores down and put up some places based on your designs? For a matter of fact, do the designs, pitch it to some developers, get in good with some of the city people, get the financing from the developers and you be the go-to-point-man... I bet you can pull 150-175 thou from the deal and clean up some of that crap on the east side of town. Hell, it's your neighborhood. Do something about it.

//

835 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:45:21pm

re: #822 sagehen

The runaway dems have seen their approval ratings go up every single day since they've been gone, while the governor's has gone down every single day. Does that tell you something about what the people of Wisconsin think of this bill?

IF that were true, then the voters in WI would be pressuring the republican members. Walker would NOT still have the votes he needs.

836 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:45:23pm

re: #753 palomino

Why do you see them as a natural gop constituency? Even before the latest gop lurch to the xenophobic right, Hispanics traditionally voted Democrat. It was seen as a huge victory for Bush that he got 35% of the Hispanic vote.

Socially conservative, responsive to family values arguments, small business owners...

837 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:45:33pm

re: #827 b_sharp

The USSR was totalitarian, statist and communist, not socialist.

Shit some of the biggest opponents of hte USSR were socialists. Rosa Luxemburg came out against the USSR I believe as early as 1919, Norman Thomas was a huge opponent, and there were many others. The thing I resent about many on the right is their attempt to lump socialism and communism in to one size fits all shoe. BY the way, if anyone's curious, there was a great documentary on PBS I believe called Heaven and Earth and it traces the history of socialism from its early years as an experiment under Robert Owen to the present.

838 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:45:37pm

re: #829 Buck

He has the votes. The idea that the voters are stupid, and elected him and the other republicans in a drunken stupor doesn't work for me.

One doesn't necessarily have to be "stupid" to believe in a lie, but it helps.

839 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:45:39pm

re: #829 Buck

Newsflash, governor Walker and his guys the Wisconsin Congress aren't so popular anymore. So claiming they have popular support is delusional.

840 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:45:51pm

re: #761 b_sharp

Huh?

If it's 1850.

841 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:45:57pm

re: #811 Gus 802

Cool beans. You know what I mean though. I grew up during the old school days when Catholics were still considered a bit of outsiders. I grew up a Catholic until I was about 8 years old and pulled a silent Hitchens. Heck, I remember we also grew up hearing "the Jews killed Jesus!" over and over again.

I'm rambling.

There are a hell of a lot of reasons I'd never swim the Tiber no matter my mother's sorrow over that. The official antisemitism was a big part for me.

But by the same token, I lit a candle for my mother this afternoon after the noon Ash Wednesday service...

842 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:46:52pm

I guess if we're entering a new gilded age that means we can at least look forward to a new progressive age right after.

843 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:47:09pm

re: #828 jamesfirecat

Okay.

Just to be clear, do you support the minitority's right to filibuster in the Unite Sates Senate?

I think you are speaking gibberish again.

844 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:47:13pm

re: #839 ProLifeLiberal

Newsflash, governor Walker and his guys the Wisconsin Congress aren't so popular anymore. So claiming they have popular support is delusional.

They had popular support long enough to get into office. Anything after that, well, shit happens.

/

845 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:47:15pm

re: #835 Buck

If they lsitened to their constituants, you'd be right. But they're not.

846 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:47:22pm

re: #839 ProLifeLiberal

Newsflash, governor Walker and his guys the Wisconsin Congress aren't so popular anymore. So claiming they have popular support is delusional.

Sez you.

847 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:47:32pm

re: #829 Buck

He has the votes. The idea that the voters are stupid, and elected him and the other republicans in a drunken stupor doesn't work for me.

So if the tea partyers spend a summer afternoon in lawn chairs on the mall, that outweighs the 2008 election and never mind that the health care bill had the votes. But if just as many Wisconsinites stand in the snow for weeks, their view is irrelevant because the 2010 election invalidates them. Got it.

848 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:47:33pm

Well, it looks as though there has been quite a discussion since I left.

How is everyone?

849 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:47:33pm

re: #827 b_sharp

The USSR was totalitarian, statist and communist, not socialist.

QFT. Bold added.

850 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:47:47pm

re: #845 ProLifeLiberal

If they lsitened to their constituants, you'd be right. But they're not.

That seems counter intuitive....

851 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:47:55pm

re: #829 Buck

He has the votes. The idea that the voters are stupid, and elected him and the other republicans in a drunken stupor doesn't work for me.

but you just said this:

BUT trying to force my clearly unpopular view on the state would be wrong.

852 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:48:13pm

re: #848 ggt

Well, it looks as though there has been quite a discussion since I left.

How is everyone?

Don't give me any crap tonight :) The last thing we need is another conservative on this thread.

853 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:48:23pm

re: #843 Buck

I think you are speaking gibberish again.

Answer the question and then I'll explain.

Simple question.

Do you think that from 2008 to 2010 the 41 Republicans should have been able to obstruct Obama's agenda by filibustering bills and defeating them unless sixty votes could be found.


Do you not understand the question?

854 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:48:55pm

re: #835 Buck

IF that were true, then the voters in WI would be pressuring the republican members. Walker would NOT still have the votes he needs.

The voters of WI *are* pressuring the Republican members. Only one rolled; the rest are sticking with party discipline. Eight of them will be recalled.

855 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:49:02pm

re: #847 sagehen

So if the tea partyers spend a summer afternoon in lawn chairs on the mall, that outweighs the 2008 election and never mind that the health care bill had the votes. But if just as many Wisconsinites stand in the snow for weeks, their view is irrelevant because the 2010 election invalidates them. Got it.

Originally the health care bill did not have the votes. You did read about the deals that were made to get votes on board right? I mean I don't have to document that again do I?

856 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:49:03pm

re: #845 ProLifeLiberal

If they lsitened to their constituants, you'd be right. But they're not.

They're listening to their Constituants, one is named David and the other Charles.

857 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:49:09pm

re: #825 Gus 802

A little bit. I'm sipping the whisky. Been bummed out all day and I think I'm running a fever.

Then get some Nyquil and lay off the whiskey is my suggestion. It'll help you sleep and if you're ill, rest is what you need. Stay home if you're running a fever in the morning.

858 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:49:19pm

re: #851 engineer dog

but you just said this:

BUT trying to force my clearly unpopular view on the state would be wrong.

Only if it's unpopular with his buddies in the legislature. The voters only matter during election season, and that's what corporate-funded ads are for.

/

859 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:49:23pm

re: #846 Buck

Sez you.

Buck Rogers. Crusader from an alternate reality to bring us the truth.

860 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:49:31pm

re: #846 Buck

Says all relevant recent polling, even Rasmussen has bad news or Walker. Unforunately, me trying to but a link on my post here I think could result in my IE 7 or 8 seizing up and going kaboom.

861 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:49:34pm

re: #815 jaunte

Now is the time when we watch SanFranciscoZionist make her way through the thread...

Damnit, I'm almost here!!!!

862 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:50:11pm

RE: The Catholic Church. I always found on a personal level interesting how my two sets of grandparents were involved with the church. My dad's parents sent him and his brothers/sisters to Catholic school. They later pulled my Dad out. He was a little bit of a troublemaker heh but they were growing disillusioned with the church due to the church's steadfast opposition to birth control. I read my late grandmother's writings that she wrote a few years before she started losing her memories and she talks about how she felt more spirtual than religious at that point in her life. Though I can remember her with her rosary to the end and she of cousre had a priest for a brother. My mom's parents weren't as financially well off as my Dad's folks and my mom and her brother were public school all the way and my grandparents stayed devout Catholics. Culturally I think I identify as Catholic. I guess it's because I was baptized, went to CCD, have been to a couple masses, and I find Catholicism hard to separate from my identity as an Irish American. Plus I like the appeal of social justice too.

863 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:50:21pm

re: #834 Walter L. Newton

Gus... you got to think bigger than that. How about some of those shelters on Colfax? You should be able to go to the ciry with some drawings and proposals to tear those ugly eyesores down and put up some places based on your designs? For a matter of fact, do the designs, pitch it to some developers, get in good with some of the city people, get the financing from the developers and you be the go-to-point-man... I bet you can pull 150-175 thou from the deal and clean up some of that crap on the east side of town. Hell, it's your neighborhood. Do something about it.

//

Good one. You know. I have mixed feelings about all of this. On the one hand I hate the run down part but on the other I hate the gentrification parts (read, yuppies). Why can't we develop things down the middle the way we used to do. Middle of the road for all to enjoy. Well, I guess it's just a reflection of the great divide in this country -- financially. We go from the poor to the wealthy with not much in the middle. Cities are the worst in that they're target marketed towards the so called "young urban elite."

864 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:50:32pm

re: #829 Buck

He has the votes. The idea that the voters are stupid, and elected him and the other republicans in a drunken stupor doesn't work for me.

Hmmm. Did you argue like this when Obamacare was being rammed down the throats of America?

///

865 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:50:32pm

re: #814 Buck

Why the person I was replying to said that the minorities should be given their way because they are the minority. And they were talking about the dem 14. Who didn't have the votes, but should be able to decide state policy anyway.

No he didn't. What was said is that although democracies work through vote, meaning the majority dictates the rules, steps are also taken in most democracies, including the US, to protect the rights of minorities, something the current GOP seems to have forgotten.

I went back through the sub-thread and found no connection from that original statement to the Dem 14.

866 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:50:44pm

re: #857 Dark_Falcon

Then get some Nyquil and lay off the whiskey is my suggestion. It'll help you sleep and if you're ill, rest is what you need. Stay home if you're running a fever in the morning.

Ok... Dark... you don't recommend Nyquil to someone who has been drinking this evening... got it. That's potent enough to make someone pass out before they even manage to hit the bed.

867 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:51:54pm

re: #864 SanFranciscoZionist

Hmmm. Did you argue like this when Obamacare was being rammed down the throats of America?

///

Now, this is what I wonder about.

868 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:52:01pm

re: #855 Buck

Originally the health care bill did not have the votes. You did read about the deals that were made to get votes on board right? I mean I don't have to document that again do I?

AAAAHHHHH! Deals took place in DC? SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!

869 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:52:36pm

re: #867 HappyWarrior

Now, this is what I wonder about.

Yeah, I remember when the call was "Up or Down Votes!" Funny how that call died away as soon as the majority went with it...

870 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:53:04pm

re: #857 Dark_Falcon

Then get some Nyquil and lay off the whiskey is my suggestion. It'll help you sleep and if you're ill, rest is what you need. Stay home if you're running a fever in the morning.

Thanks. I work at home. Well, I do when I have work -- ran dry again. I don't need any Nyquil though. Think this might be a reaction or a flip side from taking two Ibuprofens everyday. I've been waiting to see the "free" doctor for two months now. It's not really free. Called up early this week and they said it might be another two months.

871 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:54:23pm

re: #863 Gus 802

Good one. You know. I have mixed feelings about all of this. On the one hand I hate the run down part but on the other I hate the gentrification parts (read, yuppies). Why can't we develop things down the middle the way we used to do. Middle of the road for all to enjoy. Well, I guess it's just a reflection of the great divide in this country -- financially. We go from the poor to the wealthy with not much in the middle. Cities are the worst in that they're target marketed towards the so called "young urban elite."

My opinion... the yuppies are destroying the quint parts of your neighborhood, because they are getting rid of a lot of the charm INSIDE of those older single family homes and mini-mansions. These "kids" are not into restoration as much as they are into modernization.

I've seen to many of those wonderful homes all north and south of "you know where I'm talking about" (trying to preserve your locational information)... ruined (imo) by the gentrification of these yuppies.

872 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:54:38pm

re: #829 Buck

He has the votes. The idea that the voters are stupid, and elected him and the other republicans in a drunken stupor doesn't work for me.

perhaps we missed where walker campaigned on creating a budget crisis, blaming it disingenuously on the unions, and then insisting on taking away collective bargaining rights even after they consented to help him with the budget problems he created

can i see the campaign flyers on that?

873 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:54:43pm

re: #855 Buck

Yeah, making deals to pass legislation is supposed to happen. It's called compromise.

874 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:55:14pm

re: #846 Buck

Sez you.

Says the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel

A solid majority of likely voters in Wisconsin now disapprove of Gov. Scott Walker’s job performance, a poll released Friday found.

The poll by Rasmussen Reports surveyed 800 likely voters and had a margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points. The survey found that the new Republican governor received positive reviews from 43% of likely voters and negative reviews from 57%.

(that was last friday; he's dropped even more since then)

875 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:55:42pm

re: #865 b_sharp

No he didn't. What was said is that although democracies work through vote, meaning the majority dictates the rules, steps are also taken in most democracies, including the US, to protect the rights of minorities, something the current GOP seems to have forgotten.

I went back through the sub-thread and found no connection from that original statement to the Dem 14.

Yes they did. #746

Respect for the minority is another facet of democracy. One you seem to be failing to catch. Republicans in Congress are having a problem with it too, as they seem to be going after every minority right now. Muslims are next in Congress. I hope any Muslim brought up ther is going bring up his past with the IRA.

876 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:55:47pm

re: #864 SanFranciscoZionist

Why do Republicans have such an oral fixation?

877 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:56:30pm

re: #876 ProLifeLiberal

Why do Republicans have such an oral fixation?

Sexual repression? Come on dude, Gingrich claims his passion for his country caused him to be a serial adulterer.

878 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:57:07pm

re: #870 Gus 802

Thanks. I work at home. Well, I do when I have work -- ran dry again. I don't need any Nyquil though. Think this might be a reaction or a flip side from taking two Ibuprofens everyday. I've been waiting to see the "free" doctor for two months now. It's not really free. Called up early this week and they said it might be another two months.

These more than one clinic on your side of town, and try the other counties. I've known people in Denver Country who has used the Adams country clinic.

879 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:57:15pm

re: #871 Walter L. Newton

My opinion... the yuppies are destroying the quint parts of your neighborhood, because they are getting rid of a lot of the charm INSIDE of those older single family homes and mini-mansions. These "kids" are not into restoration as much as they are into modernization.

I've seen to many of those wonderful homes all north and south of "you know where I'm talking about" (trying to preserve your locational information)... ruined (imo) by the gentrification of these yuppies.

Now you're talking. Yep. Exactamundo. Take a look at what's going on in the Highlands or near Zuni St. They're scraping off a lot of the old bungalows that you could get for under 150K and putting up these pseudo-cubist neo-modernist duplexes with aluminum storefront windows. And then it's the bars, bars, and bars. Hickenlooper didn't help at all. He's one of them so to speak. And this whole thing about "beer tasting" was kind of BS move on his part too.

880 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:58:10pm

re: #878 Walter L. Newton

These more than one clinic on your side of town, and try the other counties. I've known people in Denver Country who has used the Adams country clinic.

You're right. I've been waiting for the Webb Clinic right at Denver General. I'll call around tomorrow.

881 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:58:39pm

re: #874 sagehen

Says the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
A solid majority of likely voters in Wisconsin now disapprove of Gov. Scott Walker’s job performance, a poll released Friday found.

(that was last friday; he's dropped even more since then)

Ya, They probably think he should have pushed through the bill three weeks ago, and not been lead by the nose of the dem 14 and the unions. He should at least been able to make the bill better understood, and not allowed people to make it seem like it is union busting, or taking away rights.

I am disappointed by his job performance too.

882 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:59:43pm

re: #879 Gus 802

Now you're talking. Yep. Exactamundo. Take a look at what's going on in the Highlands or near Zuni St. They're scraping off a lot of the old bungalows that you could get for under 150K and putting up these pseudo-cubist neo-modernist duplexes with aluminum storefront windows. And then it's the bars, bars, and bars. Hickenlooper didn't help at all. He's one of them so to speak. And this whole thing about "beer tasting" was kind of BS move on his part too.

I know... I didn't even go into the the the stuff that they are tearing down, I was just talking about the crap they do to the older original structures they buy, and then modernize, instead of restoring.

You're right.

883 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:59:53pm

re: #838 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

One doesn't necessarily have to be "stupid" to believe in a lie, but it helps.

Bias confirmation encourages many to believe in lies.

The idea that all voters are informed, politically rational and interested in what is best for the country is naive.

If people were purely rational in all things, creationism wouldn't be as prominent as it is.

884 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 8:59:55pm

re: #876 ProLifeLiberal

Why do Republicans have such an oral fixation?

Weaned too early. You see that in cats, too.

885 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:00:19pm

Okay I have to get to bed so let me close with this.

Buck if you support the Minority's right to filibuster in the senate, but not the right of the democrats to flee to avoid a Quorum then I really don't understand your thought process.

Because in my eyes you're supporting one elected minorities right to use a arcane procedural tactic in order to halt a government from getting anything done without a large super majority... and then decrying another minorities attempt to use an arcane procedural tactic to prevent the government form getting anything done without a large super majority...

I don't believe that anyone can find a logically consistent reason to defend one and attack the other...

If you're against both then applaud your logical consistency though...

886 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:02:30pm

re: #861 SanFranciscoZionist

Damnit, I'm almost here!!!

Pedal to the metal.

887 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:02:36pm

re: #880 Gus 802

You're right. I've been waiting for the Webb Clinic right at Denver General. I'll call around tomorrow.

Come on Gus, that's the busiest clinic in town. I should know, that's where I get my medical service even when I had coverage through the city policy because my ex-wife works there. I got a little special service because I got appointments through the employee health clinic, but all my labs and referrals and surgical visits I had to schedule in line with the rest of the patients in the system. A lot of the treatment there is first come, first served.

888 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:03:06pm

re: #882 Walter L. Newton

I know... I didn't even go into the the the stuff that they are tearing down, I was just talking about the crap they do to the older original structures they buy, and then modernize, instead of restoring.

You're right.

Oh, that too. I did some work on one nearby me. As is typical I did whatever the client wanted. You can't argue with these guys and Denver doesn't have any architectural review -- it's also "use by right" which is kind of nice sometimes. The client ended up putting EIFS as siding and the thing looms! OK, it's kind of nice inside. I did work on a landmark home and that was "by the book". I do know some developers that do scrape offs and have gotten accolades from the landmark people in town.

889 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:03:12pm

re: #861 SanFranciscoZionist

Damnit, I'm almost here!!!

NEW THREAD... hurry...

890 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:03:50pm

re: #888 Gus 802

Oh, that too. I did some work on one nearby me. As is typical I did whatever the client wanted. You can't argue with these guys and Denver doesn't have any architectural review -- it's also "use by right" which is kind of nice sometimes. The client ended up putting EIFS as siding and the thing looms! OK, it's kind of nice inside. I did work on a landmark home and that was "by the book". I do know some developers that do scrape offs and have gotten accolades from the landmark people in town.

Shit... too bad... progress.. yes?

891 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:03:51pm

re: #866 Walter L. Newton

Ok... Dark... you don't recommend Nyquil to someone who has been drinking this evening... got it. That's potent enough to make someone pass out before they even manage to hit the bed.

And forget to get up to go to the bathroom.

892 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:04:19pm

re: #887 Walter L. Newton

Come on Gus, that's the busiest clinic in town. I should know, that's where I get my medical service even when I had coverage through the city policy because my ex-wife works there. I got a little special service because I got appointments through the employee health clinic, but all my labs and referrals and surgical visits I had to schedule in line with the rest of the patients in the system. A lot of the treatment there is first come, first served.

GOT MY MEDICAL COVERAGE... PIMF.

893 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:04:30pm

re: #868 SanFranciscoZionist

AAAHHH! Deals took place in DC? SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!

OK, I'm collecting this sarcasm.

894 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:04:39pm

re: #890 Walter L. Newton

Shit... too bad... progress.. yes?

It's a living. When push comes to shove I'm still rather pro-development. It pays the bills and it's nice work when you can get it.

895 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:05:35pm

re: #870 Gus 802

Thanks. I work at home. Well, I do when I have work -- ran dry again. I don't need any Nyquil though. Think this might be a reaction or a flip side from taking two Ibuprofens everyday. I've been waiting to see the "free" doctor for two months now. It's not really free. Called up early this week and they said it might be another two months.

I still find the wait a bit weird. I thought the US system had no wait times.

896 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:05:41pm

re: #894 Gus 802

It's a living. When push comes to shove I'm still rather pro-development. It pays the bills and it's nice work when you can get it.

I got impatient. The votes count, unless the votes don't count, unless it's something good, but not if it's something bad...

I'm OK with partisan. Splitting hairs to make your guy right gets annoying.

897 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:05:44pm

re: #866 Walter L. Newton

Ok... Dark... you don't recommend Nyquil to someone who has been drinking this evening... got it. That's potent enough to make someone pass out before they even manage to hit the bed.

Sorry. I don't drink, so I had forgotten that.

898 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:06:05pm

re: #895 b_sharp

I still find the wait a bit weird. I thought the US system had no wait times.

It's one of the things that distinguishes us from hell-holes like Canada and the UK.

899 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:06:27pm

re: #885 jamesfirecat


I don't believe that anyone can find a logically consistent reason to defend one and attack the other...

If you're against both then applaud your logical consistency though...

Do you even know what filibustering is? I don't see how it compares to leaving the state to get your way. There are limits to filibustering. Has anyone done it for three weeks? I think the longest has been 24 hours and 18 minutes.

900 Gus  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:06:43pm

re: #896 SanFranciscoZionist

I got impatient. The votes count, unless the votes don't count, unless it's something good, but not if it's something bad...

I'm OK with partisan. Splitting hairs to make your guy right gets annoying.

Was that for 894? :)

901 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:06:44pm

re: #897 Dark_Falcon

Sorry. I don't drink, so I had forgotten that.

That's alright... general rule, medicine and booze doesn't mix... over the counter stuff included.

902 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:06:55pm

re: #884 SanFranciscoZionist

Now I've got a train of thougt about Republicans and an Oedipus Complex. I've laughing my ass off at "Damn You Auto Correct."

903 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:07:51pm

re: #875 Buck

Yes they did. #746

I don't think you understood #746.

904 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:08:39pm

re: #898 SanFranciscoZionist

It's one of the things that distinguishes us from hell-holes like Canada and the UK.

Wow open and on display for all to see, Canadaophobia....sickening...what is this website becoming?

905 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:09:03pm

re: #903 b_sharp

I don't think you understood #746.

seems very clear to me.

906 kirkspencer  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:11:38pm

I've read the bill that was under this. I've also read the analysis of the bill made by the state's legislative reference bureau. As a result:

It is literally true that collective bargaining is not being removed. It is equally literally true that Saddam Hussein was elected to his position on a regular basis. Lying by telling the truth but only part of the truth is a well-developed technique.

Everyone who is not a public safety employee are reduced to solely bargaining for basic wage. That is further restricted to not exceed the change in the previous year's CPI.

Unless, of course, the individual is an employee of the university system. Their right to collective bargaining is completely removed.

Since nobody else seems to have done so, allow me to provide a link so you don't have to take my word (or anyone else's) for what is and is not there.

907 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:15:15pm

re: #899 Buck

Do you even know what filibustering is? I don't see how it compares to leaving the state to get your way. There are limits to filibustering. Has anyone done it for three weeks? I think the longest has been 24 hours and 18 minutes.

That was the longest by a single Senator.


The longest filibuster came in spring of 1964 when the U.S. Senate was weighing Lyndon Johnson's Civil Rights Bill. The bill had been introduced by President Kennedy a year earlier but not taken up for debate until after his death. Debate began in March of 1964. Before it was over, Southern senators had filibustered for 534 hours, 1 minute, and 51 seconds. When the Senate finally mustered enough votes to end the filibuster, an aging California senator was wheeled onto the floor and voted by winking his eye. With the filibuster ended, the Senate approved the bill on June 20 and it was signed into law on July 2, 1964.

[unknown]

908 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:15:30pm

re: #899 Buck

Do you even know what filibustering is? I don't see how it compares to leaving the state to get your way. There are limits to filibustering. Has anyone done it for three weeks? I think the longest has been 24 hours and 18 minutes.

please. they did it for two solid years.

909 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:15:31pm

re: #906 kirkspencer

I've read the bill that was under this. I've also read the analysis of the bill made by the state's legislative reference bureau. As a result:

It is literally true that collective bargaining is not being removed. It is equally literally true that Saddam Hussein was elected to his position on a regular basis. Lying by telling the truth but only part of the truth is a well-developed technique.

Everyone who is not a public safety employee are reduced to solely bargaining for basic wage. That is further restricted to not exceed the change in the previous year's CPI.

Unless, of course, the individual is an employee of the university system. Their right to collective bargaining is completely removed.

Since nobody else seems to have done so, allow me to provide a link so you don't have to take my word (or anyone else's) for what is and is not there.

What page is the Saddam thing? I can't find it. Oh that was the added rhetoric.... Sometimes I can't see it it right away.

Why do you think the "employees of the university system" not the ones being talked about? Why are we only hearing about the teachers?

910 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:16:16pm

re: #901 Walter L. Newton

That's alright... general rule, medicine and booze doesn't mix... over the counter stuff included.

Thanks. That was actually an issue for me a couple of weeks ago, when i needed meds for vertigo. The BP meds I'm taking now don't have a problem with alcohol, so the info had slipped back to the back of my mind. Thanks for reminding me and looking out for Gus, Walter.

911 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:17:00pm

re: #908 sagehen

please. they did it for two solid years.

Not true....You must not know what filibuster means.

AND you clearly can't count. The dems didn't have the votes.... remember?

912 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:17:55pm

re: #899 Buck

Do you even know what filibustering is? I don't see how it compares to leaving the state to get your way. There are limits to filibustering. Has anyone done it for three weeks? I think the longest has been 24 hours and 18 minutes.

A record set by Strom Thurmond to obstruct a civil rights bill. It should also have earned him a record of longest number of minutes of continuously being a shithead, too.

913 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:19:53pm

re: #912 Dark_Falcon

A record set by Strom Thurmond to obstruct a civil rights bill. It should also have earned him a record of longest number of minutes of continuously being a shithead, too.

I agree. Although I think he was a shit head for much longer.

914 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:20:23pm

re: #911 Buck

Yeah, they didn't have the votes. Much of the time due to unfortunate circumstances, whether it be the Franken recount, or the illnesses of Byrd and Kennedy.

915 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:20:33pm

re: #911 Buck

Not true...You must not know what filibuster means.

AND you clearly can't count. The dems didn't have the votes... remember?

The filibuster rules have changed some since the days of the Civil Rights Act... McConnell could just announce a filibuster and nobody had to talk at all. From the day Scott Brown joined the Senate all the way through to today, the R's have filibustered almost everything, bills, nominations, down to the most trivial procedural matters. Even John Roberts has complained about how few federal judge nominees have been able to get voted on.

916 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:21:00pm

re: #914 ProLifeLiberal

Yeah, they didn't have the votes. Much of the time due to unfortunate circumstances, whether it be the Franken recount, or the illnesses of Byrd and Kennedy.

They always had a majority. They just didn't always have a super majority.

917 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:21:54pm

re: #913 Buck

I agree. Although I think he was a shit head for much longer.

Quite Concur.

918 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:23:37pm

re: #914 ProLifeLiberal

Yeah, they didn't have the votes. Much of the time due to unfortunate circumstances, whether it be the Franken recount, or the illnesses of Byrd and Kennedy.

Or they were not finished with the DC "lets make a deal" to get their own members on board. BUT who cares.... if you have the votes you get to vote.

919 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:24:12pm

re: #916 recusancy

We had a theoretical super majority we could never use.

920 recusancy  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:25:15pm

re: #919 ProLifeLiberal

We had a theoretical super majority we could never use.

I meant we always had 51 votes or more for everything.

921 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:25:31pm

re: #915 sagehen

The filibuster rules have changed some since the days of the Civil Rights Act... McConnell could just announce a filibuster and nobody had to talk at all. From the day Scott Brown joined the Senate all the way through to today, the R's have filibustered almost everything, bills, nominations, down to the most trivial procedural matters. Even John Roberts has complained about how few federal judge nominees have been able to get voted on.

You believe everything you read on the internet right? When they had the votes, they voted. When they didn't have the votes to win, they didn't.

922 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:26:02pm

re: #920 recusancy

I thought that was rather implied. :)

923 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:26:59pm

Ok, I left again for a short while.

I'm back, hopefully for a few.

924 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:28:01pm

re: #852 Walter L. Newton

Don't give me any crap tonight :) The last thing we need is another conservative on this thread.

hmmmmm . . .

925 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:30:46pm

re: #862 HappyWarrior

RE: The Catholic Church. I always found on a personal level interesting how my two sets of grandparents were involved with the church. My dad's parents sent him and his brothers/sisters to Catholic school. They later pulled my Dad out. He was a little bit of a troublemaker heh but they were growing disillusioned with the church due to the church's steadfast opposition to birth control. I read my late grandmother's writings that she wrote a few years before she started losing her memories and she talks about how she felt more spirtual than religious at that point in her life. Though I can remember her with her rosary to the end and she of cousre had a priest for a brother. My mom's parents weren't as financially well off as my Dad's folks and my mom and her brother were public school all the way and my grandparents stayed devout Catholics. Culturally I think I identify as Catholic. I guess it's because I was baptized, went to CCD, have been to a couple masses, and I find Catholicism hard to separate from my identity as an Irish American. Plus I like the appeal of social justice too.

Being RC is a lot like being Jewish in that sense. It is part of your identity. Whether you practice or not.

926 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:31:13pm

The majority leaders job is to keep the members of his party in line.... keep them voting the party line....

In Canada they actually appoint someone to do it, and call them "The Whip!"

Reid and whats her name were often unable to get the votes from their own party members. Just because they blamed the Republicans doesn't mean it was true. You can know the truth IF you can count.

927 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:34:05pm

re: #926 Buck

The majority leaders job is to keep the members of his party in line... keep them voting the party line...

In Canada they actually appoint someone to do it, and call them "The Whip!"

Reid and whats her name were often unable to get the votes from their own party members. Just because they blamed the Republicans doesn't mean it was true. You can know the truth IF you can count.

Well they have whips here, too. In fact, Illinois congressman Peter Roskum is the Deputy Majority Whip in the house.

928 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:37:41pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

And he'll be up against a socialist who'll have to defend a bad economy. I'm betting that social issues will take second place.

lol

929 ozbloke  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:39:51pm

re: #485 Alouette

Go to Spain, go to Italy, go to Ireland. Go to Israel, Australia and Japan.

You spent years caring for your feeble, helpless parents, and from what I understand it must have been extremely difficult and physically and emotionally exhausting.

Now go and live for yourself.

A very thoughtful response.

930 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:42:08pm

re: #921 Buck

You believe everything you read on the internet right? When they had the votes, they voted. When they didn't have the votes to win, they didn't.

yeah... when they had enough votes to break the filibuster.

Not a single bill the last congress passed with less than 63 votes in the Senate; some had more than 90. But it was like pulling teeth to get the 60 on a motion to proceed to a vote. They were filibustering things they even intended to vote for once the vote happened. (this all ties in to my "please stop calling Lieberman a Democrat" rant)

931 Stephen T.  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:42:13pm

re: #376 palomino

Your party is going off the rails when you have to defensively make statements like, "There are sane gop candidates." Shouldn't the default position for the gop be that their candidates are not insane? And yet there's so much evidence that insanity is prevalent in the gop across the country. Places like IL, ME, MA with some sane gopers are now anomalies.

I'm not sure if I would include ME in there. While I don't consider either GOP senator "fringe" or "insane", both are to easily manipulatable. They both changed how they would normally vote during the Bush administration, by following the party line as blindly as others. They've done that once, I'm sure they'll do it again. Then there is our governor, he's a whole other story.

932 sagehen  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:46:23pm

re: #926 Buck

The majority leaders job is to keep the members of his party in line... keep them voting the party line...

In Canada they actually appoint someone to do it, and call them "The Whip!"

Reid and whats her name were often unable to get the votes from their own party members. Just because they blamed the Republicans doesn't mean it was true. You can know the truth IF you can count.

Once Scott Brown took his seat, a unified Dem caucus wasn't enough break the filibuster. Which was used on *every* *single* *thing*. Eventually Brown or Snowe or Collins or Voinovich would deem the bill sufficiently watered down, or enough concessions had been made, or enough phone calls or newspaper editorials would get McConnell to back off for a minute and let a bill get to the floor.

933 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 9:50:09pm

re: #925 ggt

Being RC is a lot like being Jewish in that sense. It is part of your identity. Whether you practice or not.

Yeah, I think there's some truth to that. For some reason culturally, I've always felt I could identify more with Jews than I could people of Protestant background. Could be that the Jewish people and my Catholic ethnic ancestors enjoy much of the same foods and drink. The traditional Irish St. Patrick's Day meal is bacon and cabbage but because most Irish immigrants were too poor to afford it, legend is that their Jewish neigbors shared the corned beef. Not sure if that's just a legend but I love me some corned beef.

934 celticdragon  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 10:00:20pm

re: #583 Buck

Again, there are always limits in every negotiation. On both Management and union. Always have been.

Sure, like being paid in script and whether or not your wife will be pulled into the rape room in back of the company store while trying to buy rancid meat with the worthless script.

Youbetcha!

935 Lidane  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 10:04:04pm

re: #925 ggt

Being RC is a lot like being Jewish in that sense. It is part of your identity. Whether you practice or not.

True. Especially if you're Hispanic/Latino. It's cultural on a very deep level.

I'm an atheist. Haven't set foot in a church except for weddings and funerals since I was 18. I still have parts of myself that are culturally Catholic even in spite of my lack of belief. It's just there.

I think I've always related to friends that are Jewish more than my Protestant friends. Partly because some of my ancestors way way way back were Sephardic Jews and partly because my Jewish friends understand how deeply a religion can be a part of your life even if you don't practice it or believe in a God.

936 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 10:04:05pm

re: #925 ggt

Being RC is a lot like being Jewish in that sense. It is part of your identity. Whether you practice or not.

Even if you aren't RC yourself. My mother was, left & returned. Growing up I got enough christmas & easter to get at taste for smells & bells and to be able to empathize with the Irish. That said, when I found the need for a church as an adult I ended up in Canterbury rather than Rome. My mother was not happy. I will always be catholic. Just not Catholic... (sigh)

937 palomino  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 10:07:54pm

re: #836 SanFranciscoZionist

Socially conservative, responsive to family values arguments, small business owners...

Some of that social conservatism may be waning with the younger generation. And Hispanics tilt left on economic issues; they supported single payer by a larger margin than any other group.

Regardless I think the right's immigration policy and xenophobia trumps all the rest.

938 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 10:16:46pm

re: #936 wlewisiii

Even if you aren't RC yourself. My mother was, left & returned. Growing up I got enough christmas & easter to get at taste for smells & bells and to be able to empathize with the Irish. That said, when I found the need for a church as an adult I ended up in Canterbury rather than Rome. My mother was not happy. I will always be catholic. Just not Catholic... (sigh)

eh, the sacraments count for RC. That's all that matters.

939 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 10:17:55pm

re: #935 Lidane

True. Especially if you're Hispanic/Latino. It's cultural on a very deep level.

I'm an atheist. Haven't set foot in a church except for weddings and funerals since I was 18. I still have parts of myself that are culturally Catholic even in spite of my lack of belief. It's just there.

I think I've always related to friends that are Jewish more than my Protestant friends. Partly because some of my ancestors way way way back were Sephardic Jews and partly because my Jewish friends understand how deeply a religion can be a part of your life even if you don't practice it or believe in a God.

Yeah, I find the same thing with Jewish people. We relate much better. Lutherans are always ready to tell me some bad thing about the RC church. I don't get that.

940 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 10:26:57pm

re: #904 Buck

Wow open and on display for all to see, Canadaophobia...sickening...what is this website becoming?

Buck, relax.

941 Boyo  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 10:31:30pm

re: #593 Dark_Falcon

And here's an old favorite for Stalker 'Malachi Mulligan', for his homophobic insult of James:


[Video]

why do you always engage the stalkers?
they thrive on attention and you give it to them always.

942 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 10:34:30pm

re: #935 Lidane

True. Especially if you're Hispanic/Latino. It's cultural on a very deep level.

I'm an atheist. Haven't set foot in a church except for weddings and funerals since I was 18. I still have parts of myself that are culturally Catholic even in spite of my lack of belief. It's just there.

I think I've always related to friends that are Jewish more than my Protestant friends. Partly because some of my ancestors way way way back were Sephardic Jews and partly because my Jewish friends understand how deeply a religion can be a part of your life even if you don't practice it or believe in a God.

You know I am glad you said this since I thought it was just me being weird. I think for me part of it is that as a relatively "new" American, I feel I can identify with many Jews who like me had their first ancestors arrive to the US not in the colonial period but well in to the history of the country. I also don't know for certain but I probably have some distant Jewish ancestry myself. It was interesting though. I was talking with my uncle about my great great grandfather, German immigrant, Civil War vet, and owner of a blacksmith shop in Pittsburgh who was sadly later murdered and my uncle said you know he may have been Jewish. Now my uncle's known to be a little nuts but it was an interesting comment I thought.

943 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 10:50:18pm

re: #934 celticdragon

Sure, like being paid in script and whether or not your wife will be pulled into the rape room in back of the company store while trying to buy rancid meat with the worthless script.

Youbetcha!

no worries, none of that is in the bill either.

944 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 11:02:32pm

Scott Walker: Why I'm Fighting in Wisconsin

We ask government workers to make a 5.8% contribution to their pensions and a 12.6% contribution to their health-insurance premium, both of which are well below what other workers pay for benefits. Our plan calls for Wisconsin state workers to contribute half of what federal employees pay for their health-insurance premiums. (It's also worth noting that most federal workers don't have collective bargaining for wages and benefits.)

The unions say they are ready to accept concessions, yet their actions speak louder than words. Over the past three weeks, local unions across the state have pursued contracts without new pension or health-insurance contributions. Their rhetoric does not match their record on this issue.

945 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 11:48:44pm

That's right Walker, actions DO speak louder than words. They agreed to those concessions if you would agree to the concession of taking the anti-bargaining, re-certification, etc out of the bill. So you'd get to "fix the budget", as if that's what it was about, while they would still have the ability to bargain for better benefits again once the economy recovers.

But of course the main point was about taking away their bargaining ability, not fixing the budget. He is a liar, or they just broke the law.

946 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 4:20:16am

re: #899 Buck

Do you even know what filibustering is? I don't see how it compares to leaving the state to get your way. There are limits to filibustering. Has anyone done it for three weeks? I think the longest has been 24 hours and 18 minutes.

There is no time limit to the gentlemen's filibuster Buck.

947 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 4:27:26am

re: #944 Buck

Scott Walker: Why I'm Fighting in Wisconsin

Last I heard they agreed to those cuts if he'd let them keep their collective bargaining do you have a link that says otherwise Buck?

948 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 4:41:32am

re: #946 jamesfirecat

Buck doesn't really know or understand much about the way American politics works.

949 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 4:56:11am

re: #827 b_sharp

The USSR was totalitarian, statist and communist, not socialist.

I think the description of the Soviet system as a state capitalism is apt. Formally USSR was socialist. But formally it was also democratic. If USSR discredits socialism then it also discredits democracy. It does neither because it was neither. (Not that I'm a fan of a pure socialism.)

950 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 5:07:23am

re: #904 Buck

Wow open and on display for all to see, Canadaophobia...sickening...what is this website becoming?

You wouldn't see sarcasm if it hit you between the eyes. Also: Canadaphobia is a US right-wing thing.

951 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 5:08:28am

re: #944 Buck

Scott Walker: Why I'm Fighting in Wisconsin

Geez, Buck, why be a shill?

It's as plain as the nose on your face that this is NOT about the budget. The unions agreed to concessions. The GOP only passed the bill by expressly conceding that it was NOT a budgetary measure.

This isn't about the state budget, and never has been.

952 leftynyc  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:10:11am

re: #49 rwmofo

The vote was 18-1? You would think the democrat party would have had a stronger showing. Whazzup with that?


I know republicans can be slow but is the extra syllable in DemoratIC really so difficult for you?

953 leftynyc  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:20:03am

re: #97 Walter L. Newton

And as soon as they are awake... they will all move to Illinois. LOL.


Do you support what the republicans did last night? Do you support union busting? Have you even thought of any of these things or are you content behaving like a teenager on a political board?

954 Yashmak  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:25:55am

I don't know how this move by the Republicans can be considered a "surprise". The moment I heard the Democrats had fled the state to stall the thing, I asked my wife "How long you think it'll take before the Republicans strip out the spending provisions and vote on the rest of it?"

And I'm not even in politics.

The Dems could have (in my humble opinion) far more effectively villified the Republicans for this if they'd stuck around and done their jobs.

955 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:29:15am

re: #954 Yashmak

I don't know how this move by the Republicans can be considered a "surprise". The moment I heard the Democrats had fled the state to stall the thing, I asked my wife "How long you think it'll take before the Republicans strip out the spending provisions and vote on the rest of it?"

And I'm not even in politics.

The Dems could have (in my humble opinion) far more effectively villified the Republicans for this if they'd stuck around and done their jobs.

I respectfully disagree. If they had stayed there and taken the bad vote a couple of weeks ago, this issue would not have gotten nearly the coverage. This issue deserves a lot of scrutiny, and delaying it helped generate that scrutiny.

956 wee fury  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:39:51am

Good for the Wisconsin Senate.
Good for Gov. Walker.

957 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:40:58am

re: #956 wee fury

Good for the Wisconsin Senate.
Good for Gov. Walker.

Bad for the people of Wisconsin.

958 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:48:01am

re: #16 thatthatisis

It's naked class warfare: come into office with a surplus, pass a huge tax break for the rich, then - because there is now a budget shortfall - accuse the $50,000 per year workers of greed and selfishness. And on that pretext, do away with public unions.

This is, and always has been, about class warfare. The SCOTUS Citizens United opinion gives corporations unlimited power to affect elections; and this will ensure the Wisconsin unions and their middle class members will have none.

Um, the right number is $80000. That's the average cost to the state, counting benefits, of employing a teacher for one year in Wisconsin.

Here's some supporting links: big numbers

another source
The second source is a debunking of a Fox report that gave yet higher figures. Their debunking consists in showing that average salary+benefits is only $81000.

959 Yashmak  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:48:03am

re: #955 garhighway

I respectfully disagree. If they had stayed there and taken the bad vote a couple of weeks ago, this issue would not have gotten nearly the coverage. This issue deserves a lot of scrutiny, and delaying it helped generate that scrutiny.

But at least they would have stood up for their beliefs, rather than abdicating their responsibility by fleeing the state. It would have (again, in my opinion) left them in a far more sympathetic position with alot of voters.

960 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:57:32am

re: #959 Yashmak

But at least they would have stood up for their beliefs, rather than abdicating their responsibility by fleeing the state. It would have (again, in my opinion) left them in a far more sympathetic position with alot of voters.

Fleeing the state is the state level version of filibustering.

Abraham Lincoln once JUMPED OUT A SECOND STORY WINDOW to try and deny his political opponents a quorum after they locked the doors to the building.

I think the fact that they did everything in their power to try and prevent this from happening is the exact opposite of abdicating their responsibility.

961 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:10:42am

re: #118 Romantic Heretic

And filled him with a terrible resolve.

Yamamoto Isoruku knew what he was talking about.

The GOP and the Tea Party remind me of the Axis these days. "Effete liberal weaklings who won't fight."

We know how that turned out.

Politics is not war, much less a Manichean war in which absolute Good fights absolute Evil. You've gone Godwin squared.

962 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:17:10am

Buck,

Have you ever had a conversation with a member of a public union? Ever read a union contract? Or do you get all your information from Fox News?

I'm a union firefighter, our total contract is printed in book form that is less than 50 pages (5 x 7) total (22 pages of the contract outline the random drug testing, which the city insisted on, and the union agreed to during bargaining)

We have exactly one work rule (each fire engine has to have a fire officer on board), otherwise, if an officer tells you to do something, you do it, if you dont, good luck getting any sympathy from the union or its members.

Of course we o do other horrible things, like go to the press when we have equipment in need of repair, it embarssed the city, the city then repairs the pump on the engine. I know that might sound unreasonable to you, but we do consider it to be a matter of our safety, and the publics safety.

Once Kasich blows up unions here in Ohio, we will no longer be able to advocate for the public when the city refuses to what is right, bring up a safety issue, or explain to the public how policies will degrade services, bring it up and youre fired.

963 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:18:29am

re: #960 jamesfirecat

Fleeing the state is the state level version of filibustering.

Abraham Lincoln once JUMPED OUT A SECOND STORY WINDOW to try and deny his political opponents a quorum after they locked the doors to the building.

I think the fact that they did everything in their power to try and prevent this from happening is the exact opposite of abdicating their responsibility.

Again with that stupid story..... James.... be honest, tell people how it ended. Did Abe REALLY deny his opponents a quorum? Is that really what happened?

I suspect most history buffs know the story, but it is misleading to apply it here. Tell how it ended, and let everyone know.

964 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:21:36am

re: #963 Buck

Again with that stupid story... James... be honest, tell people how it ended. Did Abe REALLY deny his opponents a quorum? Is that really what happened?

I suspect most history buffs know the story, but it is misleading to apply it here. Tell how it ended, and let everyone know.

Here's how it ended...

"For a while Lincoln's escape denied the House its quorum, but it didn't last long. He was returned to the chambers and the House voted to adjourn."

Now can you tell me why knowing the ending to this story maters Buck?

965 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:23:55am

re: #964 jamesfirecat

I guess the answer then is, yes, he really denied the opposition a quorum

966 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:24:16am

re: #962 dmon

We have exactly one work rule (each fire engine has to have a fire officer on board), otherwise, if an officer tells you to do something, you do it, if you dont, good luck getting any sympathy from the union or its members.

Each engine has to have a fire officer on board? Fucking outrageous.

Commie.

/

967 wee fury  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:24:24am

re: #957 jamesfirecat

No. Good for the people of WI who elected Gov. Walker to do what he said he would.

968 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:24:49am

re: #967 wee fury

No. Good for the people of WI who elected Gov. Walker to do what he said he would.

When did he talk about busting unions before being elected?

969 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:25:19am

re: #966 garhighway

Each engine has to have a fire officer on board? Fucking outrageous.

Commie.

/

And notice how the trucks are all painted.... RED?

970 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:25:23am

re: #962 dmon

Buck,

Have you ever had a conversation with a member of a public union? Ever read a union contract? Or do you get all your information from Fox News?

I'm a union firefighter, our total contract is printed in book form that is less than 50 pages (5 x 7) total (22 pages of the contract outline the random drug testing, which the city insisted on, and the union agreed to during bargaining)

We have exactly one work rule (each fire engine has to have a fire officer on board), otherwise, if an officer tells you to do something, you do it, if you dont, good luck getting any sympathy from the union or its members.

Of course we o do other horrible things, like go to the press when we have equipment in need of repair, it embarssed the city, the city then repairs the pump on the engine. I know that might sound unreasonable to you, but we do consider it to be a matter of our safety, and the publics safety.

Once Kasich blows up unions here in Ohio, we will no longer be able to advocate for the public when the city refuses to what is right, bring up a safety issue, or explain to the public how policies will degrade services, bring it up and youre fired.

I have been a member of a union multiple times. The last time was in the Canadian Federal public sector. I have even served in a bargaining unit while on strike.

Do you have vacation pay? What about holiday pay? Of course you do. You have all the same rights as every other worker in your state. Including that you cannot be fired without cause. You don't actually need a union for those rights.

Now, it sounds like you do not have a very good union NOW, and haven't for a long time.

971 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:30:39am

re: #970 Buck

Actually our union does a good job, unions do NOT have some over reaching power over their employer. So what you are saying is that you have no experience with unionsunder U.S. or Wisconsin law but you are expert on them?

Yes I have vacation that has been bargained for over decades, those benefits were obtained by taking less pay. Now the governor of Ohio is going to unilaterally wipe out half the vacation leave we bargained by for by fiat.

972 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:30:55am

re: #970 Buck

Do you have vacation pay? What about holiday pay? Of course you do. You have all the same rights as every other worker in your state. Including that you cannot be fired without cause. You don't actually need a union for those rights.

In the USA, if you are at "at will" employee (which is what you generally are in the absence of a union), you can be fired without cause. The only restriction on the firing of "at will" employees is that they can't be fired for certain forbidden reasons (discrimination due to race, etc..., and whistleblowing are the two that come to mind). Beyond that, if the boss doesn't like you, you're gone.

973 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:32:12am

re: #972 garhighway

Where di you come up with the "without cause " part, is that from the same place that told you there some kind of time limit on a senate fillibuster?

974 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:34:36am

re: #973 dmon

Where di you come up with the "without cause " part, is that from the same place that told you there some kind of time limit on a senate fillibuster?

That was intended for Buck, right?

975 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:35:57am

re: #974 garhighway

Yes sorry.

976 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:36:30am

I still don't understand why employees should be forced to pay dues to a partisan political group they don't agree with, so the partisan group can help elect politicians they don't want elected.

How is ending this practice destructive to democracy?

977 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:37:19am

re: #964 jamesfirecat

Here's how it ended...

"For a while Lincoln's escape denied the House its quorum, but it didn't last long. He was returned to the chambers and the House voted to adjourn."

Now can you tell me why knowing the ending to this story maters Buck?

That is not the way history reports it. I learned it differently in school.

It was to save the Illinois State Bank, Wikipedia has it this way:

Lincoln and several others jumped out of a first story window, but the Speaker counted them as present and “the bank was killed".

It was a stunt, and it was completely ineffective. It was a desperate act to get his own way, when he didn't have the support of the house. He didn't have the votes. The other representatives disagreed with him in such numbers to vote against the bank. And two years later he told people that killing the bank was "better sooner than later".

SO, the story is completely irrelevant to todays lesson.

978 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:39:52am

re: #976 spool32

If you look at the crowds, and the polls, these guys are fighting like hell to continue paying dues.

If a union member does not want his dues going toward political contributions, he can elect not to pay that part.

979 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:41:28am

re: #977 Buck

That is not the way history reports it. I learned it differently in school.

It was to save the Illinois State Bank, Wikipedia has it this way:

It was a stunt, and it was completely ineffective. It was a desperate act to get his own way, when he didn't have the support of the house. He didn't have the votes. The other representatives disagreed with him in such numbers to vote against the bank. And two years later he told people that killing the bank was "better sooner than later".

SO, the story is completely irrelevant to todays lesson.

Your right there was a big difference.

The Democrats are succeeding at what they're doing.

I did a little math and a quorum is just over 60% of the state legislature.

(20 out of 32)

Gee 60%

Do you support the senate filibuster which requires 60% to break as well Buck?

Because I don't see how you can be against one trick that requires 60% vote to break and for another...

You said that there were limits on how long a filibuster can go for, but you did not provide any proof.

Could you give me some proof or another reason Buck?

980 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:42:42am

re: #972 garhighway

In the USA, if you are at "at will" employee (which is what you generally are in the absence of a union), you can be fired without cause. The only restriction on the firing of "at will" employees is that they can't be fired for certain forbidden reasons (discrimination due to race, etc..., and whistleblowing are the two that come to mind). Beyond that, if the boss doesn't like you, you're gone.

You really think I am stupid. Thirty-seven U.S. states (and the District of Columbia) recognize an implied contract as an exception to at-will employment.

And WI, and OH are on that list of 37. [Link: www.bls.gov...]

I really think everyone knows this.

981 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:45:26am

re: #976 spool32

I still don't understand why employees should be forced to pay dues to a partisan political group they don't agree with, so the partisan group can help elect politicians they don't want elected.

How is ending this practice destructive to democracy?


How about we also end the idea that employees don't get to vote on who their corporation gives money to?

982 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:45:45am

re: #980 Buck

Yes, I really think you are stupid....any other questions?

983 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:46:20am

re: #978 dmon

So what you're saying is that a member can elect not to contribute to political activity he opposes but he is forced to pay for the operating costs of a group that opposes him politically. This seems like a distinction without a difference.

Corollary question: are public sector union dues a flat amount, or a percentage of of the member's income?

984 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:48:56am

re: #983 spool32

The part of dues that are not political go towards costs, union officers are paid, contract negotiations cost money. Leal fees are incurred when the employer violates contract language.

My union dues are 1% of base pay, that rate is voted on by the members

985 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:49:17am

re: #980 Buck

You really think I am stupid. Thirty-seven U.S. states (and the District of Columbia) recognize an implied contract as an exception to at-will employment.

And WI, and OH are on that list of 37. [Link: www.bls.gov...]

I really think everyone knows this.

The implied contract exception requires the right predicate facts. So if your boss makes a promise, he has to live up to it. If the employee handbook promises a certain degree of due process, then they have to give it to you. Do you want to hazard a guess as to how often that doctrine provides meaningful relief?

Most companies (mine included) lawyer the shit out of that handbook. There are disclaimers to beat the band in there. trust me on this, Buck: I know. The implied contract exception is not terribly meaningful. In the USA, "at will" means "at will".

And I do not have an opinion of whether you are stupid or not. You say things that are incorrect. That doesn't necessarily make you stupid.

986 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:49:27am

re: #984 dmon

The part of dues that are not political go towards costs, union officers are paid, contract negotiations cost money. Legal fees are incurred when the employer violates contract language.

My union dues are 1% of base pay, that rate is voted on by the members

pimf

987 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:51:43am

re: #981 jamesfirecat

How about we also end the idea that employees don't get to vote on who their corporation gives money to?

False equivalence. Firstly, employees don't own "their" corporation - your sloppy language exposes a fundamental misunderstanding of corporations. They are owned by shareholders, who can and do vote on how the corporate political money is spent.

Secondly, employees aren't forced to contribute part of their paychecks to corporate funds used for political purposes.

Thirdly, saying "hey look over there!" is not a valid response to a question.

988 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:52:33am

re: #979 jamesfirecat

Your right there was a big difference.

The Democrats are succeeding at what they're doing.

I did a little math and a quorum is just over 60% of the state legislature.

(20 out of 32)

Gee 60%

Do you support the senate filibuster which requires 60% to break as well Buck?

Because I don't see how you can be against one trick that requires 60% vote to break and for another...

You said that there were limits on how long a filibuster can go for, but you did not provide any proof.

Could you give me some proof or another reason Buck?

I do not consider the filibuster to be the same thing as skipping the state.

Can you explain to me why a bill that has a majority of the votes should be held back or modified so that the minority can rewrite it, and make changes?

Do you really not understand democracy? Do you really value it so little that you are willing to throw it away for the unions?

In a democracy, sometimes you don't get your way. Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. It comes down to votes.

Democracy.... votes. In the end, if you can't get enough representatives to vote your way, then you lose that vote, and you move on.

Is there anyway for me to get you to support democracy and not the powerful fat cat unions?

989 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:53:15am

The biggest concern for me personally is preventing layoff by seniority, I have 6 years until I get my sevirce time toward my pension.

While I have contributed 10% of my pay toward the pension for 19 years, the city has paid $0.00, they do not pay until I draw benefits, it would be in the city's financial interest to lay me off shortly before I get my time in.

990 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:53:17am

re: #987 spool32

They are owned by shareholders, who can and do vote on how the corporate political money is spent.

Really? I own shares in several, and that has NEVER been on the shareholder ballot.

991 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:53:38am

re: #986 dmon

pimf

In WI, the teachers union dues are $1000 a year.

992 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:54:40am

re: #988 Buck

I do not consider the filibuster to be the same thing as skipping the state.

Can you explain to me why a bill that has a majority of the votes should be held back or modified so that the minority can rewrite it, and make changes?

Do you really not understand democracy? Do you really value it so little that you are willing to throw it away for the unions?

In a democracy, sometimes you don't get your way. Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. It comes down to votes.

Democracy... votes. In the end, if you can't get enough representatives to vote your way, then you lose that vote, and you move on.

Is there anyway for me to get you to support democracy and not the powerful fat cat unions?

You can if you can provide a convincing argument why the filibuster is different than skipping the state.

"Can you explain to me why a bill that has a majority of the votes should be held back or modified so that the minority can rewrite it, and make changes?"


I honestly don't Buck.

That's why I don't understand why we spent the better part of a year trying to figure out how to get 60 senators to vote on Healthcare reform when 50 should have been enough.

993 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:56:36am

re: #988 Buck

I do not consider the filibuster to be the same thing as skipping the state.

Please Buck explain this to me in detail, because this is the crux of our disagreement.

I feel that both are political tools which can give the minority too much power. Why do you support one but not the other?

994 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:56:47am

re: #985 garhighway

The implied contract exception requires the right predicate facts. So if your boss makes a promise, he has to live up to it. If the employee handbook promises a certain degree of due process, then they have to give it to you. Do you want to hazard a guess as to how often that doctrine provides meaningful relief?

Most companies (mine included) lawyer the shit out of that handbook. There are disclaimers to beat the band in there. trust me on this, Buck: I know. The implied contract exception is not terribly meaningful. In the USA, "at will" means "at will".

And I do not have an opinion of whether you are stupid or not. You say things that are incorrect. That doesn't necessarily make you stupid.

Well, this bill is not taking away any rights from the teachers that will allow the state to fire them at will. So I cannot really know what your personal circumstance is, you can tell me anything you want. However the topic is the WI teachers, and this bill does not do what you are talking about.

995 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:01:28am

re: #994 Buck

No but it allows the school board to lay them off if they dont like the color of their socks, whats the difference.

996 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:01:29am

re: #994 Buck

Well, this bill is not taking away any rights from the teachers that will allow the state to fire them at will. So I cannot really know what your personal circumstance is, you can tell me anything you want. However the topic is the WI teachers, and this bill does not do what you are talking about.

I am describing the general state of labor law in the US.

You were taking a stab at it, too, for a little while. You have retreated from that part of the conversation, and for good reason.

The general rule in this country is that if you don't have a union or some sort of statutory protection, you are an at will employee, with the consequences I described above.

I have not looked at the Wisconsin teacher's contract nor have I looked at Wisconsin civil service law, so I cannot comment on their particular situation. If you have, please share.

997 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:02:12am

re: #992 jamesfirecat

You can if you can provide a convincing argument why the filibuster is different than skipping the state.

"Can you explain to me why a bill that has a majority of the votes should be held back or modified so that the minority can rewrite it, and make changes?"

I honestly don't Buck.

That's why I don't understand why we spent the better part of a year trying to figure out how to get 60 senators to vote on Healthcare reform when 50 should have been enough.

Wow, let me clear it up for you. US Constitution, Article I, Section 5
Each House [of Congress] may determine the Rules of its proceedings.

Now for a huge part of the two years, the democrats had that supermajority, they had the majority in both houses, and the presidency. What you are really wondering is how come they were still having trouble passing just about anything they wanted. You are going to your default, which is to blame the republicans, but IF you can count, then you know that democrats did not have the votes. They didn't have a unified caucus. You should be asking why THAT is.

998 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:03:38am

re: #997 Buck

Wow, let me clear it up for you. US Constitution, Article I, Section 5
Each House [of Congress] may determine the Rules of its proceedings.

Now for a huge part of the two years, the democrats had that supermajority, they had the majority in both houses, and the presidency. What you are really wondering is how come they were still having trouble passing just about anything they wanted. You are going to your default, which is to blame the republicans, but IF you can count, then you know that democrats did not have the votes. They didn't have a unified caucus. You should be asking why THAT is.

How about a compromise then Buck.

If the sate senates had a filibuster which required a 60% super majority to break, would you be okay with the democrats filibustering this bill?

999 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:04:14am

re: #996 garhighway

I am describing the general state of labor law in the US.

You were taking a stab at it, too, for a little while. You have retreated from that part of the conversation, and for good reason.

The general rule in this country is that if you don't have a union or some sort of statutory protection, you are an at will employee, with the consequences I described above.

I have not looked at the Wisconsin teacher's contract nor have I looked at Wisconsin civil service law, so I cannot comment on their particular situation. If you have, please share.

I am trying to stay on topic. The WI teachers have union, and have given up the right to strike and in return cannot be fired without good cause. They have a whole bunch of other benefits.

1000 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:05:43am

re: #984 dmon

The part of dues that are not political go towards costs, union officers are paid, contract negotiations cost money. Leal fees are incurred when the employer violates contract language.

My union dues are 1% of base pay, that rate is voted on by the members

So what you're saying is that while a member can decline to contribute to direct political action, he is in fact forced to help pay the operating costs for a group that opposes him politically. This seems like a distinction without a difference, wouldn't you agree?

You're basically saying that while an employee doesn't have to buy signs for a political rally, he does have to buy the gas used to pick up the signs and deliver them, the electricity used to run the computers used to design them, the salaries of the people doing the artwork for them, etc. How is it fair to force an individual to do this?

Further corollary: Since you pay 1% of your salary, when your salary goes up your dues paid also increase, correct? Is it not the case, then, that political action to increase salary directly and automatically benefits the union itself? If so, is it not also the case that electing politicians willing to spend taxpayer money on increased salary for union members will directly and automatically benefit the unions themselves?

How is it fair to force all taxpaying Wisconsinites to pay for automatic increases in financial benefit to a union engaged in political efforts to elect politicians they oppose?

1001 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:06:51am

re: #997 Buck

The Wisconsin constitution says there must be a quorum to vote on financial matters,

again whats the difference between a fillibuster and leaving to prevent a quorum?

The quorum provision was obviously put in place to for a reason.

1002 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:08:36am

re: #1000 spool32

How is it fair to force all taxpaying Wisconsinites to pay for automatic increases in financial benefit to a union engaged in political efforts to elect politicians they oppose?

Because at the end of the day they're still getting benefits from being union members.

People have to keep paying taxes for our military spending even if they're conscientious objector.

That is just as "unfair" isn't it?

If you don't support the union then don't be a member of it...

1003 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:09:08am

re: #990 garhighway

Really? I own shares in several, and that has NEVER been on the shareholder ballot.


Board members are on the shareholder ballots, and you're welcome to discover how they believe the corporation should contribute before you cast your ballot. If you own enough shares, you can determine the course of the corporate political activity more directly, because as your ownership stake (or your ability to build a coalition) increases, so also does your influence over the corporate behavior.

1004 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:09:09am

re: #998 jamesfirecat

How about a compromise then Buck.

If the sate senates had a filibuster which required a 60% super majority to break, would you be okay with the democrats filibustering this bill?

Again, I don't think you understand what filibustering is. It is NOT the ability to hijack a bill and make changes to it if you don't have the votes. It is not some magical "give more power to the minority" in order to pass bills that are not supported by the majority.

It is only an attempt at stalling legislation. Usually just for show and lasts a relatively short period of time.

1005 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:10:36am

re: #1002 jamesfirecat


If you don't support the union then don't be a member of it...


The option to not be a member was unavailable in Wisconsin before the senate acted last night.

1006 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:11:04am

re: #1001 dmon

The Wisconsin constitution says there must be a quorum to vote on financial matters,

again whats the difference between a fillibuster and leaving to prevent a quorum?

The quorum provision was obviously put in place to for a reason.

Yes, there was a reason. So that fair notice would be given for a vote, and everyone would have time to show up and vote. It is to stop secret voting, without letting all the members a chance to read the bill, debate it and then vote.

1007 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:11:47am

re: #1000 spool32

Why is the compensation package payed to employee considered to belong to the people of Wisconsin?

Once that employee is paid the money belongs to the employee, and I see no reason why the taxpayer would care, or be able dictate what they spend it on.

I really am trying to understand why people insist on treating their employees (public sector), differently than thy would tolerate thier own employer treating them, or are you saying that your employee should be able to reduce your pay if he inds out you contributed to a particular candidate or party?

1008 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:12:07am

re: #1005 spool32

The option to not be a member was unavailable in Wisconsin before the senate acted last night.

Worse, the bill provides that the union has to show it is supported by a majority each year. Kinda like having regular elections.... horror.

1009 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:13:38am

re: #1004 Buck

Again, I don't think you understand what filibustering is. It is NOT the ability to hijack a bill and make changes to it if you don't have the votes. It is not some magical "give more power to the minority" in order to pass bills that are not supported by the majority.

It is only an attempt at stalling legislation. Usually just for show and lasts a relatively short period of time.

Tell you what Buck, can we at least agree that the gentlemen's filibuster makes it too easy for a minority to stall legislation and in a highly polarized political environment can be used to stifle rather than encourage debate?

1010 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:17:03am

re: #1003 spool32

Board members are on the shareholder ballots, and you're welcome to discover how they believe the corporation should contribute before you cast your ballot. If you own enough shares, you can determine the course of the corporate political activity more directly, because as your ownership stake (or your ability to build a coalition) increases, so also does your influence over the corporate behavior.

So when you said "They are owned by shareholders, who can and do vote on how the corporate political money is spent." you meant something entirely different, right?

1011 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:18:29am

re: #1008 Buck

Worse, the bill provides that the union has to show it is supported by a majority each year. Kinda like having regular elections... horror.

Unions have regular elections, and US labor law (sorry to invoke that difficult concept again for you) has ample provisions for employees to get rid of the union if they don't like it.

Horror, indeed.

1012 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:20:03am

re: #1009 jamesfirecat

Tell you what Buck, can we at least agree that the gentlemen's filibuster makes it too easy for a minority to stall legislation and in a highly polarized political environment can be used to stifle rather than encourage debate?

Not at all. All it takes to break a filibuster is a vote. If you have the votes (support, democracy remember?) then it stifles nothing. Place ads in the newspaper, ask the voters to call their representatives.

Despite the union lies to the contrary, even WI republicans want to be re-elected, and will listen to their constituents .

This is only about UNION fat cats worried about their phony baloney jobs. Not the workers, not the tax payers. The UNIONS gave millions of dollars to the 14 Dems. The 14 Dems are not acting in representing the people of WI. They are acting in the best interest of the UNION management.

1013 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:20:08am

re: #1004 Buck

, to fillibuster a bill a senator simply states he is doing so, unless the majority can find 60 votes the bill is stopped, that stoppage can be temporary or permanant. Their is absolutely nothing that stops the obstruction from being permanent.

It is a tool the minority uses to force changes to a bill they dont like. If cha

1014 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:22:32am

re: #1012 Buck

First of all the union members are citizens of wisconsin, unless you feel that public employees are below citizenship status.

Secondly how the hell is a public employee a fat cat?

1015 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:23:09am

re: #1012 Buck

Not at all. All it takes to break a filibuster is a vote. If you have the votes (support, democracy remember?) then it stifles nothing. .


Why does it stifle democracy in Wisconsin to demand their Senate have 60% super majority to vote for a bill but not when the same thing is demanded on a federal level?

1016 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:24:15am

re: #1011 garhighway

Unions have regular elections, and US labor law (sorry to invoke that difficult concept again for you) has ample provisions for employees to get rid of the union if they don't like it.

Horror, indeed.


Union elections is not anywhere the same thing as a vote to show support for the union. It is to elect the Union Management /representatives.

How is it decided if the majority members still want to be in a union? Regular Secret ballot? Or does someone have to actually organize it? Imagine the threat against anyone who would publicly stand up against the union.

Do you really not see the difference? It should be automatic. And secret ballot.

1017 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:26:44am

re: #1016 Buck

How is it decided if the majority members still want to be in a union?

They can quit the union, you know.

Imagine the threat against anyone who would publicly stand up against the union.

What are you talking about?


Do you really not see the difference? It should be automatic. And secret ballot.

This is just union-busting. It's what people like you want. It's not ideological. You just don't want unions. You're not subtle.

1018 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:27:10am

Threat??????


Youve watched way too many movies, Ive been an IAFF member for almost 20 years, we are a brotherhood, do you honestly think that if someone broached the subject of disbanding the union they would be physically threatened?

And yes it would be a secret ballot

1019 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:27:40am

re: #1015 jamesfirecat

Why does it stifle democracy in Wisconsin to demand their Senate have 60% super majority to vote for a bill but not when the same thing is demanded on a federal level?

It is fine to ask for a quorum. But it is an abuse to leave the state in order to get your way, against the will of the majority or the representatives.

The quorum is there to prevent secret votes, and votes without notice. The states business must proceed. If proper notice is given, the member should show up and vote. Otherwise they are taking away the other members right to vote. The majority has spoken and wants to pass a bill.

Democracy, look into it.

1020 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:28:13am

re: #1004 Buck


It is only an attempt at stalling legislation. Usually just for show and lasts a relatively short period of time.

Absolutely false. Just a plain lie. Many filibusters are successful and prevent bills from ever being voted on.

Why on earth do you think you can get away with just lying like that?

1021 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:28:29am

After the "theat" comment, its apparent that you have no clue.

1022 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:28:38am

re: #1016 Buck

Union elections is not anywhere the same thing as a vote to show support for the union. It is to elect the Union Management /representatives.

How is it decided if the majority members still want to be in a union? Regular Secret ballot? Or does someone have to actually organize it? Imagine the threat against anyone who would publicly stand up against the union.

Do you really not see the difference? It should be automatic. And secret ballot.

I understand the difference. I also understand that union decertification votes are not as unusual as you think. At least in this country.

[Link: bnalaborplus.bna.com...]

1023 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:29:59am

re: #1019 Buck

It is fine to ask for a quorum. But it is an abuse to leave the state in order to get your way, against the will of the majority or the representatives.

The quorum is there to prevent secret votes, and votes without notice. The states business must proceed. If proper notice is given, the member should show up and vote. Otherwise they are taking away the other members right to vote. The majority has spoken and wants to pass a bill.

Democracy, look into it.

Okay let me try this one more time then Buck.

Would you support a motion to make it so that as long as person is given a suitable notice about votes ahead of time, they count toward a quorum weather they are physically able or not to make the vote ?

1024 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:30:00am

re: #1018 dmon

Threat???

Youve watched way too many movies, Ive been an IAFF member for almost 20 years, we are a brotherhood, do you honestly think that if someone broached the subject of disbanding the union they would be physically threatened?

And yes it would be a secret ballot

Really can you please link to any legislation that says that unions must have regular votes on if there should be a union or not? In WI not only was it mandatory, but the state was forced to collect the union dues from your salary.

1025 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:31:19am

re: #1010 garhighway

So when you said "They are owned by shareholders, who can and do vote on how the corporate political money is spent." you meant something entirely different, right?

No, I meant exactly what I said. Shareholders own the corporation. The only reason a corporation wouldn't put its political donations directly on a ballot is that the shareholders haven't demanded it do so. Corporations are owned by their shareholders, just as this red herring is owned by those who wish to answer my question by speculating about Chinese tea futures.

1026 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:32:13am

re: #1023 jamesfirecat

Okay let me try this one more time then Buck.

Would you support a motion to make it so that as long as person is given a suitable notice about votes ahead of time, they count toward a quorum weather they are physically able or not to make the vote ?

Well suitable notice is relative. I just think professional mature members should show up and vote. Even if they are going to lose. That is democracy.

1027 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:35:16am

re: #1022 garhighway

I understand the difference. I also understand that union decertification votes are not as unusual as you think. At least in this country.

[Link: bnalaborplus.bna.com...]

Your link mentions "Decertification", but I don't see anywhere that it shows a number of decertifications. Do you?

1028 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:35:21am

re: #1024 Buck

No I cant, In th US its pretty much assumed that once something is voted in, it stays that way until people decide to bring it up for vote again.

The city I live in voted to incorporate in 1864, not one time have the people needed to vote again to reaffirm that vote. Now at any time the peole could put it on the ballot.

Why would any entity have to vote on its continued existance? The act that it is till their affirms it.

Youre basic stance is that since you dont like unions, they should have to jump thru hoops that you wouldnt expect of any other entity. Hell, lets vote every year on whether the United States should still exist.

1029 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:37:17am

re: #1025 spool32

No, I meant exactly what I said. Shareholders own the corporation. The only reason a corporation wouldn't put its political donations directly on a ballot is that the shareholders haven't demanded it do so. Corporations are owned by their shareholders, just as this red herring is owned by those who wish to answer my question by speculating about Chinese tea futures.

I will allow you to gracefully end your display of ignorance about corporate governance by accepting your insertion of the word "directly" into your prior remarks. Because I gotta tell you, I have never seen such a shareholder vote ever, and I see a lot of that stuff.

As for the Jeffersonian ideal of corporate democracy you speak of, either you are posturing, or you really don't understand that the topic is way more complicated than you let on.

1030 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:37:59am

re: #1027 Buck

Your link mentions "Decertification", but I don't see anywhere that it shows a number of decertifications. Do you?

For crying out loud. Go to page three. There's a list. Do you need me to add them up for you, too?

Yeesh.

1031 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:38:28am

re: #1007 dmon

Why is the compensation package payed to employee considered to belong to the people of Wisconsin?
Once that employee is paid the money belongs to the employee, and I see no reason why the taxpayer would care, or be able dictate what they spend it on.

In this case, it is not the compensation package but the fund from which it's paid that belongs to the people of Wisconsin. Since the union contribution was (until last night) automatic and mandatory, the employee had no ability to exercise choice. Since the employee's opinion was irrelevant to the flow of money from the taxpayer directly and automatically to the union, and onward to the politicians the union supports, the taxpayer who does not wish to support his own opponents has a clear interest in creating some break in the finance chain.

Moreover, you've been sloppy in your language again. Taxpayers don't wish to dictate how a public employee wishes to spend his money - it's exactly the opposite. They wish to allow the employee a decision he currently doesn't have.

1032 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:38:44am

re: #1030 garhighway

It wasnt on fox News so it didnt happen

1033 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:39:27am

re: #1029 garhighway

Most shareholders are at one remove; they are hedge funds, mutual funds, or other group funds that are the actual decision-makers, with the shareholders having little to no interest in the running of the company that they own.

No relationship at all to the immediacy of union membership.

1034 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:40:38am

re: #1031 spool32

It is really hilarious how you're positing union-busting as increasing employee choice.

Sheesh.

1035 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:43:13am

re: #1031 spool32

The employees voted to form a union, the bylaws were estblished before they voted,since no one signed a petition to decertify, one can assume that the majority still agrees with the certification.

The dues come out of money that the employee earned in exchange for their labor, the source of th funds doesnt matter anymore than tax funds that go to a business owner that does contract work for the state. Unless you are in favor of the citizens of a state dictating to a contractor what he can do with HIS money

1036 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:45:01am

My god, how hard is it to comprehend that once an employee earns his salary the employer has no right to dictate what they do with that salary.

1037 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:45:19am

re: #1028 dmon

No I cant, In th US its pretty much assumed that once something is voted in, it stays that way until people decide to bring it up for vote again.

Right so the votes are NOT regular and automatic. AND you admit that someone would have to set out into the light and organize a petition.

You see that blowback that Walker is experiencing. Imagine a few WI teachers trying to organize against the union.

AND I do not accept your initial premise that "once something is voted in, it stays that way".

Voting to incorporate is not the same thing as voting to have someone represent you. An "incorporation" cannot act outside of your interests. It is not a person or group that might have a different interest than the city does. It is a legal term. Not anything like a UNION.

1038 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:46:25am

Once the salary is paid, that money no longer belongs to the employer. But for some reason if you are a public employee the tax payer retains all rights to the money until the end of time.

1039 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:47:49am

re: #1037 Buck

Voting to incorporate is not the same thing as voting to have someone represent you. An "incorporation" cannot act outside of your interests. It is not a person or group that might have a different interest than the city does.

You fail at analogies. The city can certainly had a different interest than the citizens of that city do.


Right so the votes are NOT regular and automatic. AND you admit that someone would have to set out into the light and organize a petition.

He didn't 'admit' it. It's just a fact. It's not some dark secret.


You see that blowback that Walker is experiencing. Imagine a few WI teachers trying to organize against the union.

Okay. I'm imagining that the union has become unresponsive to the needs of the members, and that some of the union members petition to dissolve it.

I'm not seeing a mass outrage, given that there would be no attempt to strip the union of collective bargaining rights.

You really are bad at analogies. Just terrible.

1040 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:47:50am

re: #1029 garhighway

I will allow you to gracefully end your display of ignorance about corporate governance by accepting your insertion of the word "directly" into your prior remarks. Because I gotta tell you, I have never seen such a shareholder vote ever, and I see a lot of that stuff.

As for the Jeffersonian ideal of corporate democracy you speak of, either you are posturing, or you really don't understand that the topic is way more complicated than you let on.

Of course I'm posturing! The entire thread was a distraction from my original question, an intentional distraction meant to imply moral equivalence or hypocrisy by virtue of playing on people's lazy thinking and tendency to stereotype. I question the union line of reasoning, therefore I must be a corporate shill.

However, you might've seen a lot but I guess you ain't seen it all yet. Here's an investor group exercising its muscle to do exactly what I suggested.
[Link: minify.me...]

It's too bad [Link: www.govtrack.us...] didn't pass, I supported it.

1041 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:48:12am

re: #1030 garhighway

For crying out loud. Go to page three. There's a list. Do you need me to add them up for you, too?

Yeesh.

Ok, my PDF reader only loaded 2 pages....

Workers lost... wow, that is such a small number. less than 3000 people in the top 15 unions. I am curious about that. I wonder what percentage that is? I would also hazard a guess that these are mostly decertify a very small bargaining group in order to join a larger bargaining group.

1042 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:48:24am

re: #1037 Buck

Just as someone would have to set out for a petition to unincorporate a city..... tell me ANY other entity that would be required to reaffirm its existance every year?

1043 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:50:26am

re: #1037 Buck

Right so the votes are NOT regular and automatic. AND you admit that someone would have to set out into the light and organize a petition.

You see that blowback that Walker is experiencing. Imagine a few WI teachers trying to organize against the union.

AND I do not accept your initial premise that "once something is voted in, it stays that way".

Voting to incorporate is not the same thing as voting to have someone represent you. An "incorporation" cannot act outside of your interests. It is not a person or group that might have a different interest than the city does. It is a legal term. Not anything like a UNION.

I did the math for you, Buck. In the first three quarters of 2008, among the 15 largest union groups there were 165 decertification elections, resulting in 76 decertifications, including 44 such elections in the big, bad Teamsters. That process works just fine.

1044 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:51:13am

re: #1043 garhighway

The number of people in unions has dropped slowly over time.

Obviously this shows the growing power of unions.

What?

1045 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:52:00am

re: #1040 spool32

Of course I'm posturing! .

Thanks.

1046 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:53:07am

re: #1042 dmon

Just as someone would have to set out for a petition to unincorporate a city... tell me ANY other entity that would be required to reaffirm its existance every year?

Every year national conservatives have to go to CPAC and kiss their ass. Does that count?

1047 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:53:26am

re: #1042 dmon

Just as someone would have to set out for a petition to unincorporate a city... tell me ANY other entity that would be required to reaffirm its existance every year?

Reaffirm their support to represent a group of people? Really? You find that strange?

wow, the whole regular elections thing is just passing you by isn't it?

Give me a break.

1048 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:54:02am

re: #1034 Obdicut

It is really hilarious how you're positing union-busting as increasing employee choice.

Sheesh.


It's only union busting if the union would be busted without mandatory membership and mandatory dues. Surely such a benevolent and wonderful thing as a union will be supported by all its membership voluntarily!

But isn't a law allowing employees a choice a bill that increases employee choice, just by virtue of the reflexive property? It seems to me that what you mean is that it increases choices you don't like, and by "hilarious" I think you mean "scarybad".

1049 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:54:20am

re: #1047 Buck

We do have regular elections to determine who represents us.

1050 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:54:21am

re: #1043 garhighway

But that's impossible! Surely there would be threats from the union against those people organizing decertification votes, it can't possibly happen! Buck proved it through the logic of simply making assertions based on his ideological stance!

1051 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:55:05am

re: #1050 Obdicut

But that's impossible! Surely there would be threats from the union against those people organizing decertification votes, it can't possibly happen! Buck proved it through the logic of simply making assertions based on his ideological stance!

And his in-depth knowledge of US labor law.

1052 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:55:06am

re: #1047 Buck

Do we vote to recertify being a nation, being a state, having the form of government that we do? No. We vote for the people to fill those offices.

Exactly the fucking same with a union.

1053 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:56:11am

re: #1043 garhighway

I did the math for you, Buck. In the first three quarters of 2008, among the 15 largest union groups there were 165 decertification elections, resulting in 76 decertifications, including 44 such elections in the big, bad Teamsters. That process works just fine.

You missed the number of workers. See how they are so very low per vote? Tiny. Often a small bargaining unit is decertified in order to move the workers from the small union group to incorporate them into a larger unit. I suspect if you dug a little deeper you would find that those workers are NOT suddenly without a union representation.

1054 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:56:31am

re: #1045 garhighway

Thanks.

Now that we've got that out of the way, do you care to take a crack at the actual question?

1055 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:56:42am

re: #1052 Obdicut

No Obi.... according to Buck, unions are not the same as any other organization or entity, they are evil, therefor they are the ONLY entity in this nation that should have to vote to reaffirm their existance

1056 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:57:14am

re: #1048 spool32

It's only union busting if the union would be busted without mandatory membership and mandatory dues.

I'm sorry, but are you just really unfamiliar with unions? Given what a union does, collectively bargain, the only possible way for their existence to make any sense is to either have workers be members of the union, or to have workers pay the union for the negotiations done that benefit them. Otherwise, you'd have people not in the union benefiting from the work that the union did in bargaining.

You get that, right?

1057 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:57:31am

re: #1053 Buck

You missed the number of workers. See how they are so very low per vote? Tiny. Often a small bargaining unit is decertified in order to move the workers from the small union group to incorporate them into a larger unit. I suspect if you dug a little deeper you would find that those workers are NOT suddenly without a union representation.

Most bargaining units are small. Unions are pretty local beasts. That's why they usually refer to "the local".

Funny how that works.

1058 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:58:36am

re: #1052 Obdicut

Do we vote to recertify being a nation, being a state, having the form of government that we do? No. We vote for the people to fill those offices.

Exactly the fucking same with a union.

So what you're saying is that the existence of a public union is Constitutionally enshrined in Wisconsin, just like the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial branches of government.

Glad that's all cleared up...

1059 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:59:27am

Im still waiting for Buck to show me any other organization that is required by law to reaffirm its existance every year

1060 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:59:43am

re: #1058 spool32

So what you're saying is that the existence of a public union is Constitutionally enshrined in Wisconsin

You're not really understanding it, no. Do we vote on whether or not we want to have the US constitution be the law of the land? I've never voted on it. Not once in my life. Some people did a long, long time ago.

Why is that?

1061 garhighway  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:02:12am

Gotta go.

Seeya.

1062 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:02:23am

re: #1059 dmon

Im still waiting for Buck to show me any other organization that is required by law to reaffirm its existance every year

The question is loaded. The bill we are talking about does not require unions "to reaffirm its existance".

1063 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:02:35am

re: #1058 spool32

Why dont the people of Wisconsin have to vote evry year on whether they want the state constitution to continue in effect?

The reason is that in all cases, once a group votes to enact something, it stays in effect until they decide to put it back on a ballot.

1064 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:02:55am

re: #1062 Buck

It requires them to do it annually

1065 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:04:39am

If Wisconsin does not require any other group in the state to vote annually to sty in exitance, its pretty hard to argue that the requirement is meant to do anything except bust unions

1066 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:04:43am

re: #1064 dmon

It requires them to do it annually

No, not to reaffirm the existence of the union. Check again.

1067 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:05:27am

Yes Buck, they have to vote to recertify annually

1068 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:08:18am

re: #1067 dmon

Yes Buck, they have to vote to recertify annually

You are being purposely alarmist. The unions will not be crushed, dead, or fail to exist. They will simply have less members IF they fail to get support.

All that is happening is that a regular vote will take place. In secret ballot, and no one will be able to have undo influence.

1069 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:08:25am

re: #1056 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but are you just really unfamiliar with unions? Given what a union does, collectively bargain, the only possible way for their existence to make any sense is to either have workers be members of the union, or to have workers pay the union for the negotiations done that benefit them. Otherwise, you'd have people not in the union benefiting from the work that the union did in bargaining.


So what you're saying is that without mandatory membership, there's a free rider problem. OK, I can see that's an issue of concern. The union will naturally shrink in size (and financial wherewithal) as employees quit the union while also enjoying the benefit of the contracts they negotiate. Over time, the contracts will begin to favor the taxpayer over the employees as the union declines in influence through its inability to elect politicians who represent the union when bargaining with the union, rather than representing the citizens.

When you look at the situation in the private sector, the sides line up differently because there is no analog to the taxpayer. Surely it's not bad to begin by admitting that the equation is different when discussing public employees?

The free rider problem, in this case, could be solved by requiring mandatory union membership and banning all political activity for public sector unions, thereby breaking the finance chain that forces citizens to support their political opponents. Would that be acceptable as a compromise? If not, why not?

1070 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:08:48am

The legislation would require each public employee union to hold an annual election to see if a majority of the members want to continue to be represented by it. If they do, it continues; if not, it's pffft to the union leaders and their comfy incomes.


[Link: spectator.org...]

1071 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:10:24am

re: #1069 spool32

So what you're saying is that without mandatory membership, there's a free rider problem. OK, I can see that's an issue of concern.

Holy crap, that had honestly never occurred to you before?

Have you thought of, you know, reading up on the subject rather than trying to reason it out from first principles.

Man.


The free rider problem, in this case, could be solved by requiring mandatory union membership and banning all political activity for public sector unions, thereby breaking the finance chain that forces citizens to support their political opponents. Would that be acceptable as a compromise? If not, why not?

Your premise is jackass false. Citizens aren't forced to support their political opponents. They're forced to pay people for work they do.

1072 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:13:24am

re: #1069 spool32

Once again, the employee earns a salary in exchnge for work, once the salary is paid, the money the property of the employee, if he choses to donate that to a political opponent of an individual taxpayer, tough shit, the money doesnt belong to the taxpayer....or do you fell you should have input into how a citizn spends his money?

1073 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:16:12am

The unions will have to collect the dues from their members. Just like the cable company has to collect from their customers. Just like the phone company has to collect from their customers.

Is it a scary thought to the UNION fat cats? Yes. Will they have to campaign and show real value to their members? You bet.

Is it a crime to expect them to do this?

Nope.

1074 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:16:54am

re: #1063 dmon

Why dont the people of Wisconsin have to vote evry year on whether they want the state constitution to continue in effect?

The reason is that in all cases, once a group votes to enact something, it stays in effect until they decide to put it back on a ballot.

The analog to electing union representatives isn't correct, though... what you're suggesting is that if the people of Wisconsin elect one political party, they should stay in power until the people decide to have another election.

The people of Wisconsin don't vote to continue using their Constitution every year because they don't want to. If they wanted to, they could change the Constitution such that it needed to be "recertified" every year - that would probably be very dumb, but it's not impossible.

My point is that there's nothing inherent to public sector union existence that should confer upon it any more permanence than the people of Wisconsin, through the actions of their representatives, wish the union to have. They could choose to have no unions at all, if they wanted, or to have what they have now, or any number of configurations in between. Trying to portray the union as analogous to a State Constitution is incorrect.

1075 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:17:07am

re: #1073 Buck

You're mixing up two things there, buck. If the collection wasn't automatic, members would still owe it. They couldn't just not pay it.

1076 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:17:20am

You know public employees agree to give up many rights.

I am prevented for running for any city public office, I may not have a political bumper sticker on my car if I park in the city lot, until 2 years ago I was required to live within the city..... I decided to give up those rights in exchange for my career,

Now your telling me I cant contribute to the politician or cause of my chosing?

1077 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:19:06am

re: #1026 Buck

Well suitable notice is relative. I just think professional mature members should show up and vote. Even if they are going to lose. That is democracy.


As long as the loophole exists I don't mind people taking advantage of it for a good cause.

If you wish to argue that we should close this loophole then I'll agree with you Buck.

Either way have a pleasant day.

1078 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:19:11am

re: #1072 dmon

Once again, the employee earns a salary in exchnge for work, once the salary is paid, the money the property of the employee, if he choses to donate that to a political opponent of an individual taxpayer, tough shit, the money doesnt belong to the taxpayer...or do you fell you should have input into how a citizn spends his money?


This is incorrect. Until last night, the employee had no choice in whether he contributed to a union, and thus had no choice in whether some of his salary supported political candidates with whom he disagreed. Likewise the Wisconsin taxpayer, because its employees had no choice, also had no choice in whether or not they supported politicians with whom they disagree.

1079 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:19:25am

re: #1074 spool32

The analog to electing union representatives isn't correct, though... what you're suggesting is that if the people of Wisconsin elect one political party, they should stay in power until the people decide to have another election.

Well said.

1080 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:19:42am

re: #1074 spool32

The people of Wisconsin don't vote to continue using their Constitution every year because they don't want to. If they wanted to, they could change the Constitution such that it needed to be "recertified" every year - that would probably be very dumb, but it's not impossible.

And we dont vote to recertify every year because we dont want to....once again.....show me any entity that is required by law to recertify annually

1081 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:21:34am

re: #1074 spool32

The analog to electing union representatives isn't correct, though... what you're suggesting is that if the people of Wisconsin elect one political party, they should stay in power until the people decide to have another election.

No, that analogy makes no sense whatsoever. A union is not in the least bit similar to a political party. At all. In any way.

It's a goddamn bad analogy competition between you and Buck now. He's got experience, but you're a hip newcomer. Give it your best shot.

Trying to portray the union as analogous to a State Constitution is incorrect.

Try making an argument other than just assertion; the Constitution represents an agreement that governs a group who never voted for that agreement. They are bound by that rules, despite never having voted for them. They can modify them-- just as union membership can modify their union.

1082 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:23:02am

"The analog to electing union representatives isn't correct, though... what you're suggesting is that if the people of Wisconsin elect one political party, they should stay in power until the people decide to have another election."

What does this have to do with the arguement? The unions dont elect someone as president that stays in power until we decide to have an election. The union Bylaws require a new election every two years to pick leadership.

Why should they also be required to reaffirm their existnce annually if no other group is required to?

1083 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:23:55am

re: #1078 spool32

Likewise the Wisconsin taxpayer, because its employees had no choice, also had no choice in whether or not they supported politicians with whom they disagree.

You should really stop using arguments that have already been shown to be flawed. It doesn't do much for you.

Until last night, the employee had no choice in whether he contributed to a union,

Again: Free rider problem. There isn't a way to operate a union in any way other than them receiving money from all employees. You just learned this, so it's kind of funny you forgot it so quickly.

1084 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:25:44am

re: #1077 jamesfirecat

As long as the loophole exists I don't mind people taking advantage of it for a good cause.

If you wish to argue that we should close this loophole then I'll agree with you Buck.

Either way have a pleasant day.

It is only a good cause when YOU agree with it. Basically when your tribe wants to hold a vote, and use procedural methods to push through a bill with the majority (Obama care) you support that, but if your tribe is in the minority and are going to lose, you support violence (windows have been broken), and fraud (I bet you thought we forgot the doctors notes).

1085 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:27:26am

re: #1078 spool32

This is incorrect. Until last night, the employee had no choice in whether he contributed to a union, and thus had no choice in whether some of his salary supported political candidates with whom he disagreed. Likewise the Wisconsin taxpayer, because its employees had no choice, also had no choice in whether or not they supported politicians with whom they disagree.

The Union members elect leadership, we also vote on who we will support politically..... or do ya think we just hand over our dues and let em do what they want?

Once again.....why does the taxpayer have some claim as to what the employee does with his money?

1086 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:29:58am

re: #1071 Obdicut

So what you're saying is that without mandatory membership, there's a free rider problem. OK, I can see that's an issue of concern.
Holy crap, that had honestly never occurred to you before?

I'm just trying to frame things clearly, and strip away the nonsense. I'd be willing to bet that most people reading this had to google "free rider problem" to understand what we're talking about.


My premise isn't false - because dues are taken by force of law from the employee and given to the union regardless of his feelings on the matter, the taxpayer is certainly forced to support the union. The union has a vested financial interest in increasing salary because it automatically increases union mandatory dues paid, so it supports political candidates friendly to its interests. Many of those union-supported politicians are opposed by the taxpayers who fund the union donations.

Breaking the finance chain by removing mandatory dues has the direct effect of legitimizing union political activity because it is severed (by new employee choice) from the taxpayer. This creates the free rider problem, though - one solution might be to reverse things, and require union membership and deduct dues automatically but ban public unions from some or all political activity.

1087 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:30:13am

re: #1085 dmon

His argument is amusingly similar to the dumb double-taxation one, which identifies only capital gains tax as having been double taxed.

I'm against capital punishment. I pay my taxes. Some of my tax money is used to execute people. That's how it works; some of the things done with my money is going to wind up being things I don't agree with. And that's only one remove; the government directly doing things with my money. In this case, it's at two removes-- the money leaves the government and goes to private citizens. Yet somehow, according to people like him, it's somehow still magically the taxpayer's money.

1088 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:31:09am

re: #1080 dmon

And we dont vote to recertify every year because we dont want to...once again...show me any entity that is required by law to recertify annually

Actually... teachers have to recertify on a regular basis. A company wanting to be 9001 certified, has to recertify on a regular basis.

EMTs have to recertify on a regular basis.

1089 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:31:20am

re: #1086 spool32

I believe you're sincere. That's the most that I can say for you.

Please read my post below yours. Your logic is completely faulty, and reasserting it over and over isn't going to achieve anything.

1090 Interesting Times  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:31:33am

re: #1081 Obdicut

No, that analogy makes no sense whatsoever. A union is not in the least bit similar to a political party. At all. In any way.

It's a goddamn bad analogy competition between you and Buck now. He's got experience, but you're a hip newcomer. Give it your best shot.

Try making an argument other than just assertion; the Constitution represents an agreement that governs a group who never voted for that agreement. They are bound by that rules, despite never having voted for them. They can modify them-- just as union membership can modify their union.

spool32

(Logged in)
Registered since: Jun 18, 2004 at 7:03 am
No. of comments posted: 16
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Is it a sock being spun from the threads of this spool? :)

1091 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:32:47am

re: #1086 spool32

1092 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:33:34am

re: #1085 dmon

The Union members elect leadership, we also vote on who we will support politically... or do ya think we just hand over our dues and let em do what they want?

Once again...why does the taxpayer have some claim as to what the employee does with his money?

The tax payer does not have claim. However why does the UNION have to force the state to collect their dues? Why not simply bill and collect from their members? What are they afraid of? No one is saying that paying that bill is voluntary. It has to be paid... $1000 just like any other bill.

1093 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:33:46am

Unions dues are not forced, the members vote to pay dues, we could just as easily vote to pay no dues tomorrow

1094 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:36:31am

re: #1092 Buck


My God Buck, so what, in the 2011 its a line of Code in computer program, the cost is a few bucks a year, if it makes you fell better we'll pitch in the cost for you.

1095 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:37:49am

re: #1094 dmon

My God Buck, so what, in the 2011 its a line of Code in computer program, the cost is a few bucks a year, if it makes you fell better we'll pitch in the cost for you.

Right... so what? let the unions collect it. just like any other vendor.

1096 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:37:55am

And why do you keep capitalizing "UNION"

Is it a dirty word or something......

1097 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:39:08am

re: #1095 Buck

Why does the state force all employers to collect stte taxes, couldnt all the state contractors just send every taxpayer a bill every month?

1098 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:39:47am

re: #1095 Buck

Except, you know, health insurance, dental insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, 401(k) contributions, etc. etc. etc.

1099 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:40:55am

Elections have consequences when democrats win, but don't when republicans win.

1100 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:43:49am

re: #1099 Buck

Just as when the Democrats won, they had to reach compromises, compromises, that doesnt mean the minority gets their way, it just means they get some of what they want

As witnessed by no single payer in the health care bill

1101 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:45:23am

well gotta go

1102 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:46:54am

re: #1100 dmon

Just as when the Democrats won, they had to reach compromises, compromises, that doesnt mean the minority gets their way, it just means they get some of what they want

As witnessed by no single payer in the health care bill

If they had the votes for single payer they would have passed single payer. they didn't have the votes because they didn't have a unified caucus.

You can think they made compromises with republicans, but if you can count you will see the truth. They made deals with democrats.

1103 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:51:13am
"So the bad news, or depending on your point of view, the good news, is that NEA and its affiliates will continue to be attacked by conservative and right-wing groups as long as we continue to be effective advocates for public education, for education employees, and for human and civil rights. And that brings me to my final and most important point. Which is why, at least in my opinion, NEA and its affiliates are such effective advocates. Despite what some among us would like to believe, it is not because of our creative ideas. It is not because of the merit of our positions. It is not because we care about children. And it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child. NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power. And we have power because there are more than 3.2 million people who are willing to pay us hundreds of millions of dollars in dues each year because they believe that we are the unions that can most effectively represent them, the unions that can protect their rights and advance their interests as education employees."

AND that is why unions want the state to collect the union dues directly from their paycheck. (Which by the way the state will continue to do for employees that request it)

Millions of dollars are spent buying politicians. You can think the Koch brothers are some kind of political force, but next to the unions they are tiny specs.

1104 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:52:28am

re: #1081 ObdicutGive it your best shot.
Try making an argument other than just assertion; the Constitution represents an agreement that governs a group who never voted for that agreement. They are bound by that rules, despite never having voted for them. They can modify them-- just as union membership can modify their union.

I can't believe I'm writing this, but I figure I'll play along.

Ways a State Constitution is different from a union:
A Constitution is a document codifying the framework by which a state operates its government, and sometimes enumerating rights held by all the citizens of the State. A union is a special interest organization representing a narrow group of individuals, dedicated to advancing the interests of the members and the group itself. It enumerates no inherent rights, but exists as a result of the recognition of those rights (assembly, speech).

A State Constitution is a universal legal requirement for statehood under Federal law as specified by the US Constitution. A union is an organization legally required some places, and not others, depending on the political influence of the union's representatives.

Shall I go on? There is nothing inherent in a public union's existence that should confer on it the same permanence of a State Constitution, and much inherent in its existence (narrow focus, special interest, derivative progeny) that would not.

1105 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:54:10am

re: #1104 spool32

If I'd claimed the State Constitution and a union were exactly the same, then listing points of difference might have some merit.

But I didn't.

So why are you listing differences between them?

1106 webevintage  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:56:31am

re: #1099 Buck

Elections have consequences when democrats win, but don't when republicans win.

They do as we see in WI or Ohio or PA which is why I do not understand why working and middle class people vote for Republicans.

1107 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:58:24am

re: #1090 publicityStunted

spool32

(Logged in)
Registered since: Jun 18, 2004 at 7:03 am
No. of comments posted: 16
No. of Pages posted: 0

Is it a sock being spun from the threads of this spool? :)

Hardly.
Also me: [Link: disqus.com...]
You can dig around if you like, I've got a tolerably findable web presence if you don't mind sifting through the windows printing error false positives.

Simply never been motivated to comment here before.

1108 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:59:42am

re: #1106 webevintage

They do as we see in WI or Ohio or PA which is why I do not understand why working and middle class people vote for Republicans.

let me clear it up for you. They are tax payers.

1109 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:02:37am

re: #1105 Obdicut

If I'd claimed the State Constitution and a union were exactly the same, then listing points of difference might have some merit.

But I didn't.

So why are you listing differences between them?


Because you suggested they were similar enough for a good analogy. I'm saying they're not - that in fact no Constitution, or Constitutionally established elected body's permanence has any bearing on whether a union should be forced to recertify itself.

1110 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:02:40am

re: #1090 publicityStunted

spool32

(Logged in)
Registered since: Jun 18, 2004 at 7:03 am
No. of comments posted: 16
No. of Pages posted: 0

Is it a sock being spun from the threads of this spool? :)

That is really a rude stunt. You disagree with what someone says, and then accuse them of being a sock puppet? What is next? A troll, a stalker?

You are trying to shut someone up just because they disagree with you. Bad form.

1111 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:05:19am

re: #1109 spool32

I made one, and only one point of analogy: They are both agreements that govern groups of people that those people did not explicitly vote for or endorse.

They are both modifiable, and, eventually, reject-able by those people, as well.

I'm not sure why that was hard to grasp. I made it very explicitly clear.

1112 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:15:54am

re: #1087 Obdicut

I'm against capital punishment. I pay my taxes. Some of my tax money is used to execute people. That's how it works; some of the things done with my money is going to wind up being things I don't agree with. And that's only one remove; the government directly doing things with my money. In this case, it's at two removes-- the money leaves the government and goes to private citizens. Yet somehow, according to people like him, it's somehow still magically the taxpayer's money.

You're certainly welcome to oppose the State doing things with your money that you disagree with, and that's a perfectly legitimate basis on which to begin your objection. How is this different from opposing a public sector union? It's not.

Secondly, we've established that "the money goes to private citizens" is a legal fiction. The money goes from the government directly to the union (mandatory dues deducted from paychecks), and then directly to the politicians who support the union and its ability to get money directly from the government.

1113 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:22:22am

re: #1111 Obdicut

I made one, and only one point of analogy: They are both agreements that govern groups of people that those people did not explicitly vote for or endorse.

They are both modifiable, and, eventually, reject-able by those people, as well.

I'm not sure why that was hard to grasp. I made it very explicitly clear.


Come now. What you did was declare I should make arguments instead of assertions - the assertion being that unions are not analogous to State Constitutions. Then you offered an argument contrary to my assertion. Now I've replied with one of my own. Are you confused on how this argument thing works?

I guess I need to make clear that there are no useful analogies to be drawn between them? I mean, a whale and a needle both have eyes but that's not very useful to point out.

1114 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:23:06am

re: #1112 spool32

You're certainly welcome to oppose the State doing things with your money that you disagree with, and that's a perfectly legitimate basis on which to begin your objection. How is this different from opposing a public sector union? It's not.

Exactly. And it doesn't matter in the least if I personally oppose it. Or if, for example, a politician, who's salary I pay, works very hard to make sure capital punishment is the law of the land. I pay his salary for him to work directly against my interests. That's how it works.

Secondly, we've established that "the money goes to private citizens" is a legal fiction.

Heh. No, we haven't. It's simply reality.

The money goes from the government directly to the union

That is an irrelevancy; might as well say the government is a direct investor in whatever 401(k) they've got going on. Completely irrelevant.

and then directly to the politicians who support the union and its ability to get money directly from the government.

Wow, now you're just flat-out lying. Union dues are not solely used for the purposes of donations to politicians, any more than my tax money is solely used to pay the salaries of politicians who hold positions I abhor.

Your entire argument here is the false premise that since the union dues are automatically deducted it somehow remains connected to the taxpayer. That's simply, and obviously, bullshit.

You haven't actually modified your argument in the least during this conversation, despite having numerous flaws in it pointed out. Not a good sign.

1115 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:25:07am

re: #1113 spool32

Come now. What you did was declare I should make arguments instead of assertions - the assertion being that unions are not analogous to State Constitutions. Then you offered an argument contrary to my assertion. Now I've replied with one of my own. Are you confused on how this argument thing works?

I think you don't understand what an analogy is, I guess. When something is said to be analogous, it's meant that there is a similarity, not an exact analog. Listing differences doesn't disprove an analogy.

Fatuous and being snarky about it-- weird combo.

I guess I need to make clear that there are no useful analogies to be drawn between them? I mean, a whale and a needle both have eyes but that's not very useful to point out.


Yeah. Try addressing the actual analogy I made, and explain why it's not true.

Here it is again, because it apparently keeps escaping your notice:

They are both agreements that govern groups of people that those people did not explicitly vote for or endorse.

They are both modifiable, and, eventually, reject-able by those people, as well.

1116 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:29:16am

"The lungs are like a bellows"

"What a terrible analogy: bellows aren't even made of living tissue!"

1117 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:42:56am

re: #1115 Obdicut
I'm not ignoring the analogy - your points are irrelevant to the discussion, which was whether there's some inherent property of unions that should prevent them from needing annual recertification.

Yes, Constitutions and unions are both "agreements", but one is a Constitutionally required agreement between the citizens of a state and the Federal Government, and the other is a statutory agreement between a narrow group and the citizens for whom they work. They are quite dissimilar in their foundations and purpose.

Yes, both these (dissimilar) agreements were forged by people other than those currently affected today, but unions members are governed by the agreement, where citizens are not governed by their Constitution - they are governed by themselves, through a process defined in the Constitution, by representative bodies restricted by the Constitution in their form and methods.

Yes, both can be modified and eventually dissolved by the people, but dissolving a union does not trigger a legal crisis demanding the rapid re-formation of a new union, whereas dissolving a Constitution does.

Closer examination of your "analogy" shows that there are fundamental differences underlying your comparison that render the analogy useless, much as the fact that whales and needles both have eyes is useless to a discussion of marine mammal behavior. There are no inherent properties of a union that require permanence or suggest it should be enshrined with permanence in the same way a state Constitution is. .

1118 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:45:57am

Every paycheck the state forces my employer to withhold state taxes from my pay, a portion of that money goes to pay businesses that have contracts with the state.

Many of the owners of those businesses make political contributions I disagree with, therefore the state is forcing me as a taxpayer to make a political contribution that I am opposed to.

I propose that the state have each contractor bill me separately for my share of the cost, each bill will clearly how much of this payment will be donated and to whom it will be donated. If I disagree with their politics, I simply send the business the amount of my share minus the campaign contribution.

1119 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:47:01am

re: #1117 spool32

I'm not ignoring the analogy - your points are irrelevant to the discussion, which was whether there's some inherent property of unions that should prevent them from needing annual recertification.

No, that's not the discussion. You're begging the question. There is no reason to suppose that unions should need annual recertification, and what I've shown-- and what others have shown-- is that group agreements, in general, do not require that grou-- even a group that has never explicitly endorsed that agreement-- to reaffirm it.

They are quite dissimilar in their foundations and purpose.

Their foundations and purpose aren't relevant.

but unions members are governed by the agreement, where citizens are not governed by their Constitution - they are governed by themselves, through a process defined in the Constitution, by representative bodies restricted by the Constitution in their form and methods.

What's your definition of 'governed' here? It appears wildly inconsistent and bizarre.

There are no inherent properties of a union that require permanence or suggest it should be enshrined with permanence in the same way a state Constitution is.

Not requiring recertification yearly doesn't enshrine permanence, so i have no clue what you're talking about at this point.

Since you're unable to change or adapt your argument, I'm going to stop talking to you now.

1120 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:48:25am

re: #1116 Obdicut

"The lungs are like a bellows"

"What a terrible analogy: bellows aren't even made of living tissue!"


That is a terrible analogy, if you're talking about the purpose of a lung.

1121 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:49:41am

re: #1117 spool32

Then you are also in favor of every other non governmental organization voting to recertify each year, every club, corporation, LLC, Doctors group, every non-profit, and hospital.

None of these are required to be permanent, if only unions are required to, its simply union busting for political purposes

1122 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:49:44am

re: #1120 spool32

Yeah. That's why it's referred to as a 'bellows lung' by doctors. Because it's a terrible analogy.

Seeya next time you fail.

1123 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:55:59am

re: #1118 dmon

Every paycheck the state forces my employer to withhold state taxes from my pay, a portion of that money goes to pay businesses that have contracts with the state.

Many of the owners of those businesses make political contributions I disagree with, therefore the state is forcing me as a taxpayer to make a political contribution that I am opposed to.

You sure? Money gets deducted from your paycheck that goes to businesses in order to make political contributions? That does sound strange. I would certainly object to that.

Maybe the money goes to an insurance company who covers you with some form of group insurance. AND your employer can pick and choose which insurance company they use. AND I doubt that you pay the full amount. Maybe you do... but the teachers we are discussing don't. They only pay a small portion. So when the state collects that small percentage, they add it to their contribution, and pay the entire bill.

The teachers do pay the entire union dues... not a percentage, but the whole thing. The state does not contribute towards that cost.

Maybe you think union dues are like taxes, but not many other people would think so.

1124 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:59:13am

re: #1119 Obdicut

No, that's not the discussion. You're begging the question. There is no reason to suppose that unions should need annual recertification, and what I've shown-- and what others have shown-- is that group agreements, in general, do not require that group-- even a group that has never explicitly endorsed that agreement-- to reaffirm it.


All the examples used to show this were dissimilar groups! I have to recap this?

What it boils down to is that you're saying there's no reason to suppose unions should need recertification even if the members aren't pushing for it. What I'm saying is that there's nothing about a union that should prevent us from deciding it ought to be forced to.

is that a clear enough position to work from?

1125 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:01:49pm

re: #1124 spool32


Then your saying they need to, unlike the others.... because the governor doesnt like unions?

Maybe he can force the Wisconsin NAACP to re-register as a nonprofit every year too

1126 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:06:03pm

re: #1122 Obdicut

Yeah. That's why it's referred to as a 'bellows lung' by doctors. Because it's a terrible analogy.

Seeya next time you fail.


They call it that because its action is similar to a bellows, not because its purpose is to force oxygen into an a fire to make it hotter. Closer reading will see you're off the mark here. They also call that thing on a guy's neck an Adam's Apple even though creationism is a myth and there's no fruit stuck in his throat.

1127 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:06:47pm

re: #1123 Buck

So you contend that none of the money paid to state contractors is donated to politicians or parties.

1128 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:09:57pm

re: #1125 dmon

Then your saying they need to, unlike the others... because the governor doesnt like unions?

Maybe he can force the Wisconsin NAACP to re-register as a nonprofit every year too


They already have to do that, just like every other 501(c)(3). NFPs are required to prove every year in their tax filings that they still qualify for the designation.

But I'm not saying they "need to, unlike the others", I'm saying that there's no comparison between them and the others. If they shouldn't be forced to recertify, it must be for some other reason.

The main reasons both for and against forced recertification seem to be identical: "It'll eventually damage the union's influence if you make 'em do that."

1129 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:12:31pm

Notice how I ignore the "Walker is a dirty racist" subtext from dmon. You're not as witty as you think, mate.

1130 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:14:01pm

re: #1128 spool32

The main reasons both for and against forced recertification seem to be identical: "It'll eventually damage the union's influence if you make 'em do that."


Thats exactly the point, is it the place of the executive of a state to attempt, thru law, to damage a groups political influence?

I would disagree just as adamantly with a Democratic governor attempting to damage the influence of the chamber of commerce or the NRA, passing laws in an attempt to silence first amendment rights is abhorrent

1131 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:16:17pm

re: #1129 spool32

Didnt say he was a dirty racist, the point I was making is that all groups need to be treated the same, you cant change the rules for one just cause you dont like em

1132 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:18:16pm

re: #1127 dmon

So you contend that none of the money paid to state contractors is donated to politicians or parties.

OK, like what do you mean? What comes off your paycheck and goes to politicians or parties?

If it is so obvious, you should be able to list them?

1133 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:20:56pm

re: #1126 spool32

They also call that thing on a guy's neck an Adam's Apple even though creationism is a myth and there's no fruit stuck in his throat.

I like this guy..... You mean that lump in my throat is not "like" an apple? And if someone said that it was like an apple, it would be a bad analogy?

Smart.

1134 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:22:37pm

re: #1132 Buck

Sure, A company called White Hat is payed by the state to manage charter schools in the state, White Hat made a donation to State senator Shannon Jones who introduced the union busting bill here in Ohio.

I pay state taxes so a portion of the taxes I paid were used pay White Hat, out of White Hats profits a contribution was made to politician I disagree with

1135 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:26:26pm

re: #1130 dmon

The main reasons both for and against forced recertification seem to be identical: "It'll eventually damage the union's influence if you make 'em do that."

Thats exactly the point, is it the place of the executive of a state to attempt, thru law, to damage a groups political influence?

I would disagree just as adamantly with a Democratic governor attempting to damage the influence of the chamber of commerce or the NRA, passing laws in an attempt to silence first amendment rights is abhorrent

That's a good question. Firstly, your analogy is bad because neither the CoC nor the NRA are employed by the State. Also, forgive me if I'm skeptical of your statement - how did you feel about the Citizen's United decision? I take your point, though.

The main difference here between the public union and other groups, even private unions, is that they have the ability to capture the group that should be regulating them. Just as regulatory capture is a problem in the corporate world, the quid pro quo between lawmakers and the unions who support them is a problem that should be addressed. So, in the case of a public sector union, I do believe it's proper for government to try and reframe its relationship to the union such that it's less able to capture representatives who will then act in the interests of the unions funding them.

1136 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:28:50pm

re: #1131 dmon

Didnt say he was a dirty racist, the point I was making is that all groups need to be treated the same, you cant change the rules for one just cause you dont like em


No, you implied that Walker doesn't like the NAACP. It had nothing to do with "all groups should be treated the same", which is silly anyway. All groups should definitely not be treated the same, because they are not all the same.

1137 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:29:32pm

re: #1134 dmon

Sure, A company called White Hat is payed by the state to manage charter schools in the state, White Hat made a donation to State senator Shannon Jones who introduced the union busting bill here in Ohio.

I pay state taxes so a portion of the taxes I paid were used pay White Hat, out of White Hats profits a contribution was made to politician I disagree with

White Hat is paid to do a job. They probably have to bid for that contract on a regular basis. However if you can show that they donate or make contributions directly to the people who decide their contract I think you would have a case.

UNLESS they are a union, then you can absolutely document them contributing to the exact people who decide on the contracts they negotiate... and that is perfectly legal.

America... what a country.

1138 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:31:08pm

re: #1137 Buck

Then fuck off and quit taking an interest in us, Canadian.

Seriously.

1139 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:32:28pm

re: #1135 spool32

I honestly wouldnt have bit of a problem with preventing unions from making donations if at the same time, any corporation that receives state money from contributing. The problem is, how far do you go, If the union cant contribute, how about its members individually, likewise, how about the employees of the corporation doing state contracts?

Each have the ability to influence representatives.

Personally I dont think ANY group, or corporation should be able to contribute, only individuals, and they should be limited a few thousand dollars

1140 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:34:30pm

re: #1137 Buck

But your point earlier is that since unions contribute, the taxpayer is indirectly forced to make contributions they disagree with......how is that different than White Hat contributing, the taxpayers are indirectly making the contribution.

1141 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:36:05pm

re: #1137 Buck

The union contributions are can also be documented, again, whats the difference

1142 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:36:12pm

re: #1140 dmon

But your point earlier is that since unions contribute, the taxpayer is indirectly forced to make contributions they disagree with...how is that different than White Hat contributing, the taxpayers are indirectly making the contribution.

I don't think I made that point. I think I said that unions should have to collect their dues directly from the members.

1143 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:37:10pm

re: #1142 Buck

Then the contractor should have to collect payment directly from the taxpayer....again whats the difference

1144 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:44:32pm

re: #1141 dmon

The union contributions are can also be documented, again, whats the difference

If a Politician is seen taking a "contribution" directly from a business who they are deciding on a contract bid, and there are no "blind" or lowest bid requirements, then I think you would have a case of political interference, and maybe accepting a bribe.

Unless it is a union, then the Politician can do just about anything they want. The dem 14 are a perfect example. They took millions in union contributions, and are acting not on the states best interest, budget repair, but are taking orders from the unions to try and keep the money flowing.

Same with Obama when he gave unions the multi-million dollar gift by making them (and only them) exempt from the Cadillac health plan tax. You can draw a line directly between them, and it is all legal.

1145 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:45:35pm

re: #1143 dmon

Then the contractor should have to collect payment directly from the taxpayer...again whats the difference

The individual tax payer is not the customer. White Hat works for the state. Has a contract directly with the state.

1146 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:47:27pm

re: #1145 Buck

The individual tax payer is not the customer. White Hat works for the state. Has a contract directly with the state.

and clearly the Union is the vendor for the union member, not the state.

1147 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:50:35pm

re: #1146 Buck

My credit union is also a vendor for the employee not the City, i havent seen a state law preventing the City from handling the transaction.......this law doesnt give the City the choice of whether they want to handle the transaction for me, it prohibits it.

1148 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:51:32pm

re: #1147 dmon

Should the state be in the business of dictating who an employer can or cannot make payroll deductions for?

1149 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:53:06pm

How about the annual United Way drive? Is it OK if the city deducts my contribution? Or should that be illegal too

1150 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:53:29pm

re: #1147 dmon

My credit union is also a vendor for the employee not the City, i havent seen a state law preventing the City from handling the transaction...this law doesnt give the City the choice of whether they want to handle the transaction for me, it prohibits it.

Which transaction? To deposit your cheque? I assume you requested it.

1151 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:53:55pm

re: #1149 dmon

How about the annual United Way drive? Is it OK if the city deducts my contribution? Or should that be illegal too

Do you request it, or do they do it without your consent?

1152 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:53:59pm

re: #1150 Buck

Yep, requested union dues be deducted too

1153 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:54:48pm

re: #1144 Buck

If a Politician is seen taking a "contribution" directly from a business who they are deciding on a contract bid, and there are no "blind" or lowest bid requirements, then I think you would have a case of political interference, and maybe accepting a bribe.

That's hilarious. The GOP literally lets energy companies draft regulatory laws, and you think that this level of separation is achieved. What a loon.

1154 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:54:52pm

Signed the form for the union deduction in 1992, of my own free will

1155 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:55:13pm

re: #1152 dmon

Yep, requested union dues be deducted too

and IF the employee makes the request, they might still be. The law only prohibits from being automatically done.

1156 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:56:58pm

re: #1154 dmon

Signed the form for the union deduction in 1992, of my own free will

were you really given a choice? What if you hadn't signed it?

1157 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:58:23pm

re: #1155 Buck

I believe your wrong.......... it will be illegal. And the union is prevented from even requested it because it isnt included in what thy are allowed to bargain for.

Our union already has it worked out where the credit union will automatically transfer my dues into the union account....if the governor doesnt outlaw that too

1158 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:59:48pm

re: #1156 Buck

I wouldnt have been a member of the union, by state law I dont have to join...the funny part is, they would still required to repreent me, and I would benfit from any negotiations they had with the city, same pay, same benefits,,,,no dues

1159 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:00:21pm

re: #1158 dmon

I wouldnt have been a member of the union, by state law I dont have to join...the funny part is, they would still required to represent me, and I would benfit from any negotiations they had with the city, same pay, same benefits,,,no dues

pimf

1160 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:01:44pm

re: #1157 dmon

I believe your wrong... it will be illegal. And the union is prevented from even requested it because it isnt included in what thy are allowed to bargain for.

Our union already has it worked out where the credit union will automatically transfer my dues into the union account...if the governor doesnt outlaw that too

"And the union is prevented from even requested it"

Pulled out for emphasis.

1161 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:03:15pm

Im curious what business the state has in telling a city what they can and cannot bargain over.

1162 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:08:05pm

re: #1158 dmon

I wouldnt have been a member of the union, by state law I dont have to join...the funny part is, they would still required to repreent me, and I would benfit from any negotiations they had with the city, same pay, same benefits,,,no dues

Well the teachers in WI don't have the freedom you have.

1163 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:13:09pm

re: #1162 Buck

Judging by the protests......none of them are viewing this as some new freedom


Lets see....... they cut their pay by 15%.......permanently prevented them from getting any raise over the CPI, prevented the citizens from increasing local property taxes to offset stte cuts in funding

Gave the school boards to ability cut their sick leave, vacation, and tenure. Have no input on class size, mandatory overtime, no bargaining for insurance coverage.

Didnt you notice all them outside the capital screaming "Free at last"

1164 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:23:40pm

re: #1163 dmon

Judging by the protests...none of them are viewing this as some new freedom

Lets see... they cut their pay by 15%...

Starting off with a lie is a bad way to make a point.

In fact they are NOT cutting their pay. They are making a 5.8% contribution to their pensions and a 12.6% contribution to their health-insurance premium. These figures are not a percentage of their gross pay, but a percentage of the pension contribution and health insurance premiums.

So, for example if their health insurance premium is $2000 a year (for example only), the teacher would pay $240 a year.

permanently prevented them from getting any raise over the CPI,

Also not entirely true, there is a provision for exceptions. However is that really so bad? I mean if the state needs to get control of their budgets, don't you think that is a fair way to do it?


prevented the citizens from increasing local property taxes to offset stte cuts in funding

Gave the school boards to ability cut their sick leave, vacation, and tenure. Have no input on class size, mandatory overtime, no bargaining for insurance coverage.

A lot of stuff thrown in there just for the fear factor. Most of which I don't actually see in the bill. I wont comment on what I don't actually see in the bill.

1165 dmon  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:25:51pm

re: #1164 Buck


You are partly right the percentage of the pension is truly a percentage of pay.....but I do stand corrected on the insurance.

Accusing someone of a lie isnt the best way to have a conversation

1166 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:39:43pm

re: #1165 dmon


You are partly right the percentage of the pension is truly a percentage of pay...but I do stand corrected on the insurance.

Accusing someone of a lie isnt the best way to have a conversation

You knew better. EVEN if they are getting some less in their paychecks, it isn't a pay cut. They are paying a little more for their own benefits. You know that it is not the same. You have made these sort of alarmist statements multiple times.

You can pretend if you want, but I can tell you knew better.

AND you know what? Right now they are not saying free at last, but the ones that received layoff notices last week are plenty grateful. It is not nice to be out of work in this economy.

Let's you and me revisit this in 6 months. the unions and dem party supporters have raised millions on the back of this. (DKOS raised a cool quarter mil) We will see where that money goes. If they can't really get support for the recall they are fundraising for then I will take that to mean they are saying "free at last", just in secret.

Anyway in 6 months we will start to see the impact on the WI budget. Not just state but municipalities. We will also see who wins the language battle.

Everytime you hear someone on TV say that this bill took away the teachers collective bargaining, think of me. Everytime you hear someone say that the teachers lost the right to be in a union, think of me. Everytime you hear someone say that the teachers took a 15% pay cut, think of me.

1167 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:43:47pm

re: #1162 Buck

Well the teachers in WI don't have the freedom you have.

I love how lunatic-fringies like yourself selectively ignore the benefits of union membership when it serves their arguments, and hype it up to extremes when it serves other arguments.

Either union members are overcompensated and are sucking the government dry, OR they are deprived of freedoms unnecessarily. Choose one, because you are at odds with yourself.

1168 Buck  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:46:39pm

re: #1167 Fozzie Bear

I love how lunatic-fringies like yourself selectively ignore the benefits of union membership when it serves their arguments, and hype it up to extremes when it serves other arguments.

Either union members are overcompensated and are sucking the government dry, OR they are deprived of freedoms unnecessarily. Choose one, because you are at odds with yourself.

I did not ignore anything. dmon said he had a choice in his membership in the union. The teachers in WI don't. It is a simple as that. I don't see that as extreme anything.

1169 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:49:38pm

re: #1153 Obdicut

That's hilarious. The GOP literally lets energy companies draft regulatory laws...

This is dead true. Regulatory capture is a serious problem on both sides of the aisle.

1170 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:52:08pm

re: #1168 Buck

I did not ignore anything. dmon said he had a choice in his membership in the union. The teachers in WI don't. It is a simple as that. I don't see that as extreme anything.

80% of Canadian government employees are unionized. It must be so hellish up there. How do you guys survive? Shouldn't you be out struggling against the communism that is clearly oppressing you and your family?

1171 spool32  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:53:24pm

re: #1167 Fozzie Bear

Either union members are overcompensated and are sucking the government dry, OR they are deprived of freedoms unnecessarily


What, it's impossible to be overpaid and still lack the freedom to choose whether or not you want to give some of your overpayment to a union?

1172 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 2:17:42pm

re: #1166 Buck

wow, the fat cat arguing against the union EMT!

Sorry fat cat, I'm with the guy who works for a living

1173 robdouth  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 9:15:26am

re: #1108 Buck

How about those of us also (that are middle class) that don't view the interest of the unions as being directly in line with the interests of our children. I love hearing the assinine sophistry that if we don't support collective bargaining we are immediately anti-teacher. Then it's basically inferred that anti-teacher is anti-child.

There is so much wrong with thinking that being against the power of the unions means republicans hate teachers. I'll quote the inimitable Dennis Prager who has made it increasingly clear and has talked about how his deeply held Jewish beliefs cause him to revere teachers accordingly: We love teachers, we despise your unions. I also believe exactly as he does that unions do not make better people or employees. You can perhaps not become a worse person, but joining a union will not make you a better person.

1174 robdouth  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 9:25:58am

re: #1172 WindUpBird

Then why aren't any of the pro-union people fighting for unions for federal employees? Why stop collective bargaining from being taken from one group in Wisconsin, but not fight for it to be given to all government workers at the national level? Why is it seen as anti-teacher, or even through twisted logic by some as anti-child, when Wisconsin scores lower than states like Texas which doesn't have teachers unions. I would think a non-union state would be much much worse if teachers need unions to survive.

1175 robdouth  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 9:41:45am

re: #13 wlewisiii

So the people that faced the yelling and angry mobs, but continued to show up to work to do their jobs are the cowards, and the people that fleed the state to avoid a quorum are the brave ones.

War is Peace, and ignorance is strength I guess also.

Next you'll tell me we've always been at war with Eurasia.


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