Right Wing Terrorists Arrested in Plot to Murder Judge, State Troopers

What violent right wing extremism?
US News • Views: 30,055

Five members and associates of an Alaskan right wing militia have been arrested and charged in an alleged plot to kidnap and/or murder state troopers and a Fairbanks judge.

Oddly, none of them seem to be Muslims.

Francis “Schaeffer” Cox, Lonnie Vernon, Karen Vernon, Coleman Barney and Michael Anderson are accused of conspiring to commit murder, kidnapping, and arson, as well as weapons misconduct, hindering prosecution and tampering with evidence, according to trooper spokeswoman Megan Peters in a written statement late Thursday.

An investigation “revealed extensive plans to kidnap or kill Alaska state troopers and a Fairbanks judge,” the statement said. The plans included “extensive surveillance” on the homes of two Fairbanks troopers, the statement said.

“Investigation also revealed that extensive surveillance on troopers in the Fairbanks area had occurred, specifically on the locations of the homes for two Alaska state troopers,” the statement said. “Furthermore, Cox et. al. had acquired a large cache of weapons in order to carry out attacks against their targeted victims. Some of the weapons known to be in the cache are prohibited by state or federal law.”

U.S. Attorney Karen Loeffler said Lonnie Vernon, 55, was arrested for threatening to kill a federal judge. She said more information about federal charges would be released today Fairbanks Police Chief Loren Zager said the operation involved multiple police actions related to Fairbanks-area members of the “sovereign citizen” movement.

The SPLC has more details on the group: Alaska Militia Leader Arrested in Plot to Kill Troopers and a Judge.

And here’s a video discovered by Killgore Trout, in which militia leader Francis “Schaeffer” Cox meets with Republican Rep. Don Young:

Youtube Video

At about 1:00 into the clip, an audience member asks Rep. Young, “If any government should decide that we have to register certain of our arms or turn them in, what would your recommendation be?”

Young replies, “Don’t do it. I sincerely mean that.”

Yes, that’s right; a GOP representative advised these militia nutjobs to break the law.

Related
BREAKING: Alaska Militia Members Arrested for Plot to Kidnap or Kill Police

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257 comments
1 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:45:56am

It's nice to know that Rep Young really values the law. And I am sure some idiot will say these guys were really left wing nuts and another nut will try to justify the plot.

2 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:46:34am

I would like to think there would be some fallout for a GOP official appearing with a terrorist and advising him to illegally hide his guns but I'm not sure if the MSM will even pick up on this.

3 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:47:15am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

I would like to think there would be some fallout for a GOP official appearing with a terrorist and advising him to illegally hide his guns but I'm not sure if the MSM will even pick up on this.

Maybe he'll be invited to appear at Peter King's panel. Oh wait, terrorists are only Muslims, sorry.

4 Kronocide  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:48:02am

Law and Order types, them R's.

5 Mocking Jay  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:48:23am

Wait... are they meeting in a fast food restaurant? Really?

6 Gus  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:49:32am

Yes. Because if you register your gunz the black helicopters will soon begin surveillance and the mind control will begin!

7 Targetpractice  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:50:22am

re: #1 HappyWarrior

It's nice to know that Rep Young really values the law. And I am sure some idiot will say these guys were really left wing nuts and another nut will try to justify the plot.

My guess is they'll go for the "They're Left Wing Nutjobs!" angle, then when they fail that, shift gears and go with the "They're Just Random Nutjobs!" excuse. Right wing terrorists? Come now, we know that there are simply no such things.

/

8 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:51:18am

re: #7 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

My guess is they'll go for the "They're Left Wing Nutjobs!" angle, then when they fail that, shift gears and go with the "They're Just Random Nutjobs!" excuse. Right wing terrorists? Come now, we know that there are simply no such things.

/

I lean on random nutjobs but I ahve to say after the attempt by some pepole on the right's attempt to make Von Brunn (the nut sho shot up the Holocaust Museum) in to a left winger nothing would surprise me.

9 jaunte  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:51:42am

re: #5 JasonA

They remember their dads talked a lot about a 'Burger court'.

10 Achilles Tang  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:52:59am

... but are they doing it for the Constitution or for a God?//

11 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:53:14am

Here's another one of the arrested terrorists.....
[Link: newsminer.com...]

Image: L19Second04.jpg

Coleman Barney stands with an AK-47 as he listens to the speaker during the Second Amendment March on Monday, April 19, 2010, in Veterans Memorial Park. Barney, a member of the local Second Amendment Task Force,


Pantaloons!

12 martinsmithy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:53:15am

If you're a Muslim, and you want to commit terror, you are part of an international problem related to militant Islam.

But if you're a non-Muslim, and you want to commit terror, then you're an "isolated loner."

Or, in this case, "five isolated loners."

13 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:54:00am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Here's another one of the arrested terrorists...
[Link: newsminer.com...]

Image: L19Second04.jpg


Pantaloons!

Attention Wingnut Militias!
AK-47s are commie weapons.

14 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:54:24am

re: #12 martinsmithy

If you're a Muslim, and you want to commit terror, you are part of an international problem related to militant Islam.

But if you're a non-Muslim, and you want to commit terror, then you're an "isolated loner."

Or, in this case, "five isolated loners."

If you're white/christian and want to commit terror then you are an
"isolated loner" who will become a "martyr"/"Hero".

15 Mocking Jay  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:54:25am

re: #13 Varek Raith

Attention Wingnut Militias!
AK-47s are commie weapons.

Wolverines!

16 Bulworth  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:54:35am

re: #3 HappyWarrior

Maybe he'll be invited to appear at Peter King's panel. Oh wait, terrorists are only Muslims, sorry.

Maybe they can be invited to appear to express how worried they are that Muslim extremists and their Shariah law will take away their guns.

17 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:55:01am

re: #13 Varek Raith

Attention Wingnut Militias!
AK-47s are commie weapons.

And better ones than the M16, in my opinion.

18 sagehen  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:56:07am

What's the over/under on somebody finding photographic evidence to connect some of these guys directly to Sarah Palin?

19 Gus  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:56:13am

Clearly we need a congressional hearing on the growing problem of Christian extremists in America.

[crickets]

"//"

20 Targetpractice  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:57:32am

re: #18 sagehen

What's the over/under on somebody finding photographic evidence to connect some of these guys directly to Sarah Palin?

Why can't you just leave Sarah alone?! It's because you're afraid of her, aren't ya? Damned liberal stalker, can't leave the woman alone for a minute!

///

21 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:57:37am

re: #18 sagehen

What's the over/under on somebody finding photographic evidence to connect some of these guys directly to Sarah Palin?

Or Todd.

22 Mocking Jay  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:58:10am

re: #18 sagehen

What's the over/under on somebody finding photographic evidence to connect some of these guys directly to Sarah Palin?

Really, Sage, that would only help her street cred with her fans.

23 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:58:12am

Read the Alaskan blogs, Don Young is just thoroughly corrupt. But they keep on electing him.

24 webevintage  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 11:58:50am

re: #15 JasonA

Wolverines!

hahahahahaha
That was on TV today and yes, we watched it....

“Don't you ever cry again, as long as you live,”
Pure comedy gold.

25 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:02:02pm

re: #23 Stanley Sea

Read the Alaskan blogs, Don Young is just thoroughly corrupt. But they keep on electing him.

[Link: www.themudflats.net...]

"Coconut Don Young slips out of the net as feds drop investigation."

26 Girth  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:02:19pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

re: #13 Varek Raith

Attention Wingnut Militias!
AK-47s are commie weapons.

I know it's the caption on the photo from that site, but that's not an AK-47.

27 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:02:24pm

Aren't these the same nuts some guy running for office in Alaska was using as 'security' last year?

28 Mocking Jay  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:04:19pm

re: #26 Girth

re: #13 Varek Raith

I know it's the caption on the photo from that site, but that's not an AK-47.

We were all blinded by the pants.

29 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:05:15pm

re: #26 Girth

re: #13 Varek Raith

I know it's the caption on the photo from that site, but that's not an AK-47.

Oop. My bad. I should have checked the picture.

That's an H&K I believe. They're pretty good weapons too.

30 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:05:49pm

re: #27 Romantic Heretic

Aren't these the same nuts some guy running for office in Alaska was using as 'security' last year?

Different group, same neighborhood & M.O.

31 garhighway  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:07:05pm

re: #24 webevintage

hahahahahaha
That was on TV today and yes, we watched it...

“Don't you ever cry again, as long as you live,”
Pure comedy gold.

"It's gold, Jerry! Gold!"

32 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:07:15pm

re: #30 Stanley Sea

Different group, same neighborhood & M.O.

Thanks.

33 Girth  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:08:18pm

re: #29 Romantic Heretic

Oop. My bad. I should have checked the picture.

That's an H&K I believe. They're pretty good weapons too.

That was my first thought too, but then I thought it couldn't be that either, because clearly that is a replica of the weapon that General Washington's army carried against the British.

34 Mocking Jay  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:11:07pm

re: #33 Girth

That was my first thought too, but then I thought it couldn't be that either, because clearly that is a replica of the weapon that General Washington's army carried against the British.

In a Harry Turtledove novel, perhaps...

35 Gus  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:12:02pm

Yo! SDC, are you just going to downding this article and not comment on the arrests? Come on in and say something.

36 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:14:32pm

re: #26 Girth

re: #13 Varek Raith

I know it's the caption on the photo from that site, but that's not an AK-47.

Aw, man!
You ruined it!
/

37 dmon  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:16:21pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

What's up with the uniform?...Is it a combination Confederate General/ Jedi Knight?

38 Achilles Tang  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:17:20pm

re: #37 dmon

What's up with the uniform?...Is it a combination Confederate General/ Jedi Knight?

Official Tea Party.

39 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:25:41pm

re: #28 JasonA

We were all blinded by the pants.

It's not an HK G3... it's an optical illusion.
It's the pattern in the pants. The Pleats. Not flattering in the crotchal region.
I'm going to take them back to the pants store.

40 AK-47%  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:26:30pm

re: #12 martinsmithy

If you're a Muslim, and you want to commit terror, you are part of an international problem related to militant Islam.

But if you're a non-Muslim, and you want to commit terror, then you're an "isolated loner."

Or, in this case, "five isolated loners."

The argument from the American religious is that if you are Muslim and commiting acts of terror, you are following the precepts of your religion as dictated by the Koran.


If you are not a terrorist, then you are not a "true Muslim".

41 makeitstop  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:32:44pm

re: #37 dmon

What's up with the uniform?...Is it a combination Confederate General/ Jedi Knight?

There's nothing in the Constitution that says you have to have any fashion sense.

42 Achilles Tang  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:34:33pm

re: #40 ralphieboy

The argument from the American religious is that if you are Muslim and commiting acts of terror, you are following the precepts of your religion as dictated by the Koran.

If you are not a terrorist, then you are not a "true Muslim".

Actually after reading a little more on the sayings of these nuts, there is the following quote

"God gave you rights, just as a human being He didn't give rights to a government that they can then give to you if they want,"

I suppose that means, according to one logic, that they are not true Christians, but those words also seem strangely familiar. Something about recent speeches and something to do with forgiveness of sins, like infidelity, maybe...

43 jea62  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:35:23pm

Strangely enough, we never hear about all those violent liberal plots to kill conservatives...

44 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:36:36pm

re: #41 makeitstop

There's nothing in the Constitution that says you have to have any fashion sense.

They only had parts of two costumes left at the store, a 200 year old military outfit and a clown costume.

45 jaunte  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:37:19pm

Schaeffer Cox has some serious issues.

Schaeffer Cox, 26, pleaded guilty Friday to a reduced charge of reckless endangerment, a misdemeanor, as part of a plea agreement. He was originally charged with second-degree assault, a felony.

Cox, who has no prior criminal record, was placed on probation for two years and received a one-month suspended sentence. He will also have to attend classes in alternatives to violence.

Cox’s wife told Alaska State Troopers that the couple and their young son were on their way to Anchorage last week when they began to argue. The argument escalated, and Cox reportedly punched and choked the woman when she threatened to leave him.
[Link: www.newsminer.com...]


Convincing argument!

46 AK-47%  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:37:21pm

re: #42 Naso Tang

A key argument from reoligious fundamentalists is that our rights are "God-given", which means that if one decides that the the laws and rights established by our government are in conflict with one's religious convictions, then one has the right and even the duty to violate them.

47 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:37:40pm

Schaffer also thinks that his going to prison will give him the opportunity to recruit more to his cause:

Youtube Video

He doesn't consider the courts to have any jurisdiction over him either:

If you've been following the ongoing matter of the misdemeanor weapons misconduct charges against Fairbanks militia leader Schaeffer Cox since hearings began this month, you know it has been unusual. The Fairbanks Daily News-Miner reported that at a recent hearing, Cox argued on his own behalf that Alaska's court system is a for-profit corporation and has no authority over him because he is a "sovereign citizen." He also presented District Judge Patrick Hammers with "criminal papers" and a restraining order issued by "a de jure" court. After the hearing Cox told the News-Miner he's not concerned about jail time: “Worst case, I go to jail for 30 days and educate all the prisoners and leave a screaming bee hive behind me." Also after the hearing, Cox told a trooper that militia members have the Alaska State Troopers "outmanned and outgunned" and "could probably have [them] all dead in one night." Read much, much more from the News-Miner's Dec. 15 report, here. And read the latest, here.

This guy believes that Lincoln replaced the US Constitution with one that incorporated the US:

Cox claims he and all Americans are sovereigns, or kings and queens, and no one is required to obey laws unless not doing so would directly harm other sovereigns. Much of his claims center around the belief President Lincoln subverted the original Constitution and replaced it with a copy that incorporated the United States.

Over the summer, the Southern Poverty Law Center released a report estimating that as many 300,000 Americans consider themselves sovereign citizens. The movement has grown with the poor economy, the growth of the Internet and the election of President Obama.

Cox believes the federal government will fail soon and a de jure — or legally established — republic will be at the ready to replace it. Cox also claims to be the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff in the de jure republic.

*double facepalm* - when one simply wont do.

This guy is a loony bin of crazy:

Cox, a carpenter by trade, leads a group called the Second Amendment Task Force. Its website features combat footage from Afghanistan alongside videos detailing a United Nations-orchestrated plot to deprive Americans of their constitutional right to bear arms.

Earlier this year, Cox founded a second organization, the Fairbanks-based Alaska Peacemakers Militia. Its members pledge to keep “thugs” from doing “stupid, lawless stuff” in the event of a natural disaster or the collapse of civil society. They also warn of dire consequences if the federal government crosses a rather loosely defined “line in the sand.”

I think I hear helicopters in the background... whoomp, whoomp, whoomp....

48 Kronocide  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:38:28pm

re: #43 jea62

What left wing violence Oh Great Equivocatus Maximus al-Socky?

49 Mocking Jay  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:41:17pm

re: #48 BigPapa

What left wing violence Oh Great Equivocatus Maximus al-Socky?

Oh no, not another Weathermen mention...

50 ozbloke  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:42:18pm

OT: Japan declares atomic emergency

The Japanese government declared an atomic emergency and told thousands of residents living near a nuclear plant in Fukushima to evacuate, warning a small amount of radiation could be released.

Trade minister Banri Kaieda said authorities were nearing a decision to release radioactive steam from a troubled nuclear reactor in a bid to ease a pressure build-up after its cooling system was damaged by a massive earthquake.

"Pressure has risen in the container of the reactor and we are trying to deal with it, "a spokesman for Tokyo Electric Power, which operates the plant, said.

The government had earlier said no radiation leaks were detected among its reactors after the 8.9-magnitude earthquake struck on Friday, Japan's biggest on record, triggering huge tsunamis.

More...

51 Interesting Times  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:42:56pm

re: #48 BigPapa

What left wing violence Oh Great Equivocatus Maximus al-Socky?

Actually, if you look at his prior comments, I think he just left the sarc tag off that one.

52 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:44:36pm

re: #48 BigPapa

What left wing violence Oh Great Equivocatus Maximus al-Socky?

Liberals are way too busy organizing bulk abortions, giving criminals massages, smoking dope, talking to psychics, sitting under pyramids, drinking green tea and buying Birkenstocks to worry about killing conservatives.

53 Kronocide  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:46:07pm

re: #49 JasonA

Oh no, not another Weathermen mention...

I wondered if it was a James J Lee mention.

54 Girth  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:48:15pm

re: #52 b_sharp

Liberals are way too busy organizing bulk abortions, giving criminals massages, smoking dope, talking to psychics, sitting under pyramids, drinking green tea and buying Birkenstocks to worry about killing conservatives.

I wouldn't call myself a liberal but smoking dope and drinking green tea sounds like a lovely afternoon.

55 AK-47%  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:50:43pm

re: #54 Girth

I wouldn't call myself a liberal but smoking dope and drinking green tea sounds like a lovely afternoon.

A great way to get me in the mood for killing babies, stifling personal liberties and expanding government meddling in our lives and businesses...

56 BishopX  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:51:40pm

re: #55 ralphieboy

A great way to get me in the mood for killing babies, stifling personal liberties and expanding government meddling in our lives and businesses...

Oh, I thought that was what the sodomy was for...

57 AK-47%  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 12:54:56pm

re: #56 BishopX

Oh, I thought that was what the sodomy was for...


No, that's for chilling out after another successful day of pushing the deficit to new records...

58 Kronocide  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:02:05pm

I thought smoking dope caused liberals to eat cheetos and play video games, not plan the socialist takeover of the USA.

59 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:02:50pm

Thank you for shining a light on the crazies, Charles.

60 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:03:01pm

OT: Tsunami updates - one man was swept out to sea and there was damage in ports up and down the West Coast from the tidal surge.

61 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:04:38pm

re: #50 ozbloke

Power reactors are at base a faustian bargain.

62 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:05:46pm

re: #60 lawhawk

It churned up the harbor mud a bit in Fort Bragg California near here.

63 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:05:51pm

re: #60 lawhawk

OT: Tsunami updates - one man was swept out to sea and there was damage in ports up and down the West Coast from the tidal surge.

Sorry for the guy, but damn, Darwin.

64 celticdragon  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:06:15pm

re: #6 Gus 802

Yes. Because if you register your gunz the black helicopters will soon begin surveillance and the mind control will begin!

Unfortunately, gun registration lists were used for confiscatory purposes in New York some years back, which is why there is considerable resistance to registration now. Also, no study I am aware of has ever been able to link crime reduction to gun registration. You inevitably end up creating a new class of criminals since they feel ( with some justification, I think) that their property will be taken and thusly refuse to abide by the law.

65 celticdragon  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:07:52pm

re: #63 Stanley Sea

Sorry for the guy, but damn, Darwin.

Yeah. Not the brightest thing to be doing.

66 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:08:59pm

re: #61 Ojoe

Huh???

67 Kruk  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:11:37pm

re: #37 dmon

What's up with the uniform?...Is it a combination Confederate General/ Jedi Knight?

"If you strike the South down, we'll rise again more powerfull than ever before?"

68 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:12:00pm

re: #66 Varek Raith

A bargain with the devil of the nucleus, of which our bodies cannot know, as our own chemistry works on the electron shells.

Every other way to generate power is safer.

69 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:12:21pm

re: #58 BigPapa

I thought smoking dope caused liberals to eat cheetos and play video games, not plan the socialist takeover of the USA.

Our deception is working.

70 Kruk  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:15:13pm

re: #46 ralphieboy

A key argument from reoligious fundamentalists is that our rights are "God-given", which means that if one decides that the the laws and rights established by our government are in conflict with one's religious convictions, then one has the right and even the duty to violate them.

Yet, these are the same people who claim Muslim Americans are loyal to their faith first and America second. Who was the guy who was talking about motes and beams again?

71 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:15:32pm

The man missing in California reminds me of the people who died up at Mt. St. Helens.

Warnings do not mean go look.

72 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:15:40pm

re: #68 Ojoe

A bargain with the devil of the nucleus, of which our bodies cannot know, as our own chemistry works on the electron shells.

Every other way to generate power is safer.

Or if the nuclear reactions are done at a far enough remove from us? Perhaps about 1 AU?

73 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:16:16pm

Maddow on good Gov Snyder here in Michigan:

Youtube Video

Poor people and seniors sure have had it too good for too long. //

74 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:17:43pm

re: #72 oaktree

There's a good one at that location already!

75 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:18:16pm

re: #74 Ojoe

There's a good one at that location already!


I can take care of that.

76 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:18:45pm

re: #68 Ojoe

A bargain with the devil of the nucleus, of which our bodies cannot know, as our own chemistry works on the electron shells.

Every other way to generate power is safer.

So the atomic nucleus is the devil??

77 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:18:48pm

re: #46 ralphieboy

A key argument from reoligious fundamentalists is that our rights are "God-given", which means that if one decides that the the laws and rights established by our government are in conflict with one's religious convictions, then one has the right and even the duty to violate them.

That argument is one of the silliest ever. If one bases one's rights on "God" one lacks all those rights. Because there is no credible intersubjective evidence of God's existence, hence this lack of evidence supervenes on the "God-given" rights.

78 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:20:03pm

re: #75 Varek Raith

I can take care of that.

How about you go light up Jupiter for us instead.

79 The Left  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:20:06pm

re: #77 Sergey Romanov

That argument is one of the silliest ever. If one bases one's rights on "God" one lacks all those rights. Because there is no credible intersubjective evidence of God's existence, hence this lack of evidence supervenes on the "God-given" rights.

Rights are predicated upon our status as persons; this is why they are ínalienable'.

80 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:20:24pm

re: #76 recusancy

Your cells think so when the nucleus fires out ionizing radiation.

81 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:20:32pm

re: #76 recusancy

So the atomic nucleus is the devil??

The devil is in the details.

82 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:20:49pm

re: #78 b_sharp

How about you go light up Jupiter for us instead.

Sure. Fireworks are fireworks.
FIREFIREFIRE!!!

83 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:21:31pm

re: #79 iceweasel

If rights are not based on God, then they are subject to human modification...

84 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:21:46pm

re: #79 iceweasel

Rights are predicated upon our status as persons; this is why they are ínalienable'.

Yep. Moreover, rights don't mean anything outside of society.

85 Kronocide  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:21:58pm

re: #76 recusancy

So the atomic nucleus is the devil??

No, Dark Matter is the Devil. Or Anti Matter? Let me check the authority on the matter, the modern King James Bible.....

86 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:22:13pm

re: #83 Ojoe

If rights are not based on God, then they are subject to human modification...

Reply to #77 then.

87 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:22:19pm

re: #83 Ojoe

If rights are not based on God, then they are subject to human modification...

Who's god do we choose?

88 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:22:44pm

re: #87 recusancy

Who's god do we choose?

Me.

89 Kronocide  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:23:01pm

re: #83 Ojoe

If rights are not based on God, then they are subject to human modification...

Wrong. Since God does not have a court they are still subject to human modification.

Instead of Men/Women in black robes, then it's old white men in white robes.

90 The Left  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:23:05pm

re: #83 Ojoe

If rights are not based on God, then they are subject to human modification...

Not at all. They supervene on our status as persons, they may be infringed upon by humans or government, but that doesn't make it right (hee) to do so.

91 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:23:12pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

Sure. Fireworks are fireworks.
FIREFIREFIRE!!!

Thanks, that should help warm Mars up. Now go pound it with a few thousand comets and it will be just about ready for me to build my house.

92 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:23:14pm

This is pretty damned spectacular and cool. Tokyo and other areas of the country received alerts of the impending massive 8.9 quake before it could be felt.

In Tokyo, because of its distance from northern Japan, the warning message reached people before the quake actually jolted the capital.

When an earthquake occurs, seismometers near its source detect the first shockwave, which is usually mild and harmless. This wave is followed by another wave that travels more slowly and is much stronger and potentially destructive.

The agency's computer system analyzes the first, faster-traveling wave and quickly estimates how powerful the second wave will be; if it is likely to be very powerful, the system immediately issues a warning message.

The message comes on TV and radio, and many Japanese cellphones can receive and display the message. Some power and gas facilities as well as railway and industrial systems automatically halt their operations the moment they receive the warning message, the spokesman said.

In places relatively far from the seismic center, people can receive the warning up to half a minute or so before the quake reaches those areas.

Japan is the only country that has such an early warning system, according to the meteorological agency. The agency developed the system with help from scientists and launched it in December 2007.

The system is designed to send out the warning only if the intensity of the quake is lower 5 or stronger on the Japanese scale. (The scale has three levels for each number, so there's lower 5, 5 and upper 5.) Friday's quake was 7 on that scale, and the system sent out the warning message 8.6 seconds after it detected the very first shock wave.

Note that this was developed by the Japanese equivalent to the American NOAA.

30 seconds might not seem like a lot - but that's enough time to duck and cover or get others to a safer location. It can also help shut down chemical processes before the tremor hits - limiting damage further.

93 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:23:19pm

re: #83 Ojoe

If rights are not based on God, then they are subject to human modification...

And by the way, you're correct - they absolutely are subject to human modification. So?

94 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:23:57pm

re: #93 Sergey Romanov

Better if they weren't

95 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:24:16pm

re: #83 Ojoe

If rights are not based on God, then they are subject to human modification...

That's the whole point. It allows us to adjust them when social structure changes.

96 Kruk  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:24:23pm

re: #88 Varek Raith

Me.

Sorry, no Sith allowed.

97 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:24:26pm

re: #94 Ojoe

Better if they weren't

Sure, and I would like to have a billion dollars. So?

98 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:24:27pm

re: #94 Ojoe

Better if they weren't

Is that the official Whig position?

99 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:24:47pm

re: #93 Sergey Romanov

And by the way, you're correct - they absolutely are subject to human modification. So?

Human beings have been known to believe and do some awfully silly things.

I prefer the idea of rights that do not ebb and flow with the latest fads.

100 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:24:53pm

re: #87 recusancy

Who's god do we choose?

The first green one that walks by.

101 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:25:12pm

re: #98 recusancy

Yes.

102 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:25:34pm

re: #101 Ojoe

Yes.

So it's essentially a religious based party?

103 Interesting Times  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:25:46pm

re: #94 Ojoe

Better if they weren't

So the old-fashioned right of some people to own others as slaves should have left as it was?

104 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:26:07pm

re: #90 iceweasel

Not at all. They supervene on our status as persons, they may be infringed upon by humans or government, but that doesn't make it right (hee) to do so.

If you are going to play with words like that, it may be time to torture you with the comfy chair.

105 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:26:16pm

re: #99 EmmmieG

Human beings have been known to believe and do some awfully silly things.

I prefer the idea of rights that do not ebb and flow with the latest fads.

This is just an idea, without any connection to reality. Humans will violate rights regardless of this idea. So why the need for the idea in the first place?

106 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:26:16pm

re: #102 recusancy

It supports the Declaration of Independence.

107 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:26:23pm

re: #85 BigPapa

Ah, but what about red matter?

108 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:26:24pm

re: #99 EmmmieG

Human beings have been known to believe and do some awfully silly things.

I prefer the idea of rights that do not ebb and flow with the latest fads.

Well, until god shows herself and appoints us our rights we have to rely on people.

109 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:26:32pm

re: #2 Killgore Trout

Why should there be fallout for the GOP wonk that answered the question of someone he probably does not even know correctly? If the gov passed a law requiring me to turn over my guns I would ignore it too, and I can attest that I am no terrorist except to dove and deer during hunting season.

110 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:26:51pm

re: #89 BigPapa

Wrong. Since God does not have a court they are still subject to human modification.

Instead of Men/Women in black robes, then it's old white men in white robes.

If it's 30-year-olds in red robes... you're watching _Logan's Run_

;)

111 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:27:08pm

re: #107 lawhawk

Ah, but what about red matter?

Commies.
Next!

112 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:27:12pm

re: #94 Ojoe

Better if they weren't

Nonsense.

113 The Left  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:27:14pm

re: #94 Ojoe

Better if they weren't

But isn't this just a wish that no governments or people would infringe on anyone else's rights? I don't see what any of this has to do with God or why you'd need to appeal to one.

114 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:27:58pm

re: #108 recusancy

Well, until god shows herself and appoints us our rights we have to rely on people.

Notoriously unreliable.

115 garhighway  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:28:22pm

re: #92 lawhawk

This is pretty damned spectacular and cool. Tokyo and other areas of the country received alerts of the impending massive 8.9 quake before it could be felt.

Note that this was developed by the Japanese equivalent to the American NOAA.

30 seconds might not seem like a lot - but that's enough time to duck and cover or get others to a safer location. It can also help shut down chemical processes before the tremor hits - limiting damage further.

Just more liberal government bullshit. They should suck it up and die like sovereign citizens.

/

116 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:28:42pm

re: #105 Sergey Romanov

This is just an idea, without any connection to reality. Humans will violate rights regardless of this idea. So why the need for the idea in the first place?

Actually, ideals, stated and believed by men, can become reality.

When they wrote the Declaration of Independence, men (or women) were not equal. They wrote it down, and repeated it, held it up as an ideal, and we've tried to work towards it. (Slowly and imperfectly, but usually in a forwards direction.)

Just because we can't be perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be better.

117 Kronocide  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:28:51pm

re: #92 lawhawk

Note that this was developed by the Japanese equivalent to the American NOAA.

30 seconds might not seem like a lot - but that's enough time to duck and cover or get others to a safer location. It can also help shut down chemical processes before the tremor hits - limiting damage further.

Wow, that 30 seconds is HUGE. That system could be hugely beneficial to California/Oregon/Washington.

118 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:29:07pm

re: #114 Ojoe

Notoriously unreliable.

When did god layout the list of rights?

119 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:29:12pm

re: #113 iceweasel

or why you'd need to appeal to one.

Strongest safeguard in an imperfect world.

120 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:29:35pm

re: #108 recusancy

Do you really think that God has a sex. If he made "man" in his image I would think he would be neither or both male and female.

Loves the post btw

121 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:29:37pm

re: #107 lawhawk

Ah, but what about red matter?

Ask Spock.

122 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:29:41pm

more footage....

Youtube Video
123 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:30:32pm

re: #116 EmmmieG

Actually, ideals, stated and believed by men, can become reality.

When they wrote the Declaration of Independence, men (or women) were not equal. They wrote it down, and repeated it, held it up as an ideal, and we've tried to work towards it. (Slowly and imperfectly, but usually in a forwards direction.)

Just because we can't be perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be better.

But, as I stated initially, there is no credible intersubjective evidence of God's existence. This means that if the rights are based on God, there is no credible intersubjective evidence of right's existence. Frankly, people, however unreliable, are a less shaky foundation.

124 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:30:32pm

re: #117 BigPapa

Wow, that 30 seconds is HUGE. That system could be hugely beneficial to California/Oregon/Washington.

And think of the benefit if it could be adapted to provide 30 seconds warning of other things...

125 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:30:33pm

re: #118 recusancy

10 commandments...

no one is supposed to murder you

tell lies about you


etc.

126 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:30:38pm

re: #120 haavamaal

Do you really think that God has a sex. If he made "man" in his image I would think he would be neither or both male and female.

Loves the post btw

You just called god a "he" and "him". Why do you get to give god a sex but I don't?

127 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:30:50pm

re: #125 Ojoe

10 commandments...

no one is supposed to murder you

tell lies about you

etc.

Written by man.

128 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:30:58pm

re: #109 haavamaal

Why should there be fallout for the GOP wonk that answered the question of someone he probably does not even know correctly? If the gov passed a law requiring me to turn over my guns I would ignore it too, and I can attest that I am no terrorist except to dove and deer during hunting season.

Are your guns registered? I'm pretty sure you are required by law to register your guns.

129 MarkAM  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:31:13pm

This situation is, at least potentially, very, very serious:

[Link: blogs.forbes.com...]

re: #50 ozbloke

OT: Japan declares atomic emergency

The Japanese government declared an atomic emergency and told thousands of residents living near a nuclear plant in Fukushima to evacuate, warning a small amount of radiation could be released.

Trade minister Banri Kaieda said authorities were nearing a decision to release radioactive steam from a troubled nuclear reactor in a bid to ease a pressure build-up after its cooling system was damaged by a massive earthquake.

"Pressure has risen in the container of the reactor and we are trying to deal with it, "a spokesman for Tokyo Electric Power, which operates the plant, said.

The government had earlier said no radiation leaks were detected among its reactors after the 8.9-magnitude earthquake struck on Friday, Japan's biggest on record, triggering huge tsunamis.

More...

130 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:31:28pm

fox's neil cavuto has michael "heck of a job" brownie on to talk about japanese nuke plants. fail.

131 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:31:38pm

The fallacy being promoted here is one of wishful thinking. Just because one would like to have an absolute basis for human rights does not mean that such basis is possible.

132 The Left  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:31:40pm

re: #119 Ojoe

Strongest safeguard in an imperfect world.

Hardly! Looking at events like the tsunami makes it difficult to believe that god can be both all powerful and all good. This is an old old argument and I don't expect either of us to change our minds, btw. No reason we can't agree to disagree.

133 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:32:15pm

re: #125 Ojoe

10 commandments...

no one is supposed to murder you

tell lies about you

etc.

I say we use the 8 buddhist precepts instead of the 10 commandments.

134 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:32:35pm

re: #127 recusancy

As you wish.

135 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:32:42pm

re: #114 Ojoe

Notoriously unreliable.

Since those same unreliable people also invented everything about god(s) and made up those god given rights, I guess we're SOL.

136 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:32:56pm

re: #131 Sergey Romanov

The fallacy being promoted here is one of wishful thinking. Just because one would like to have an absolute basis for human rights does not mean that such basis is possible.

Arguing with people who think the bible was written by a supreme being.

137 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:33:01pm

re: #133 recusancy

Those are very good also.

138 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:33:10pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

In Texas only hand guns need be registered. Of course I am certainly not referring to full auto stuff that requires a class 3 firearms license. I'm not a gun nut, and only own a couple shotguns and a couple rifles for hunting with the family.

139 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:33:50pm

re: #137 Ojoe

Those are very good also.

How about Leviticus?

140 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:33:53pm

re: #136 recusancy

Arguing with people who think the bible was written by a supreme being.

butterflies, daffodils, nipples on men...

141 Kronocide  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:34:10pm

re: #127 recusancy

Written by man.

Written on stone blocks by a man who lived to be well over 900 years old.

But we don't live that long now because of sin.

142 Kruk  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:34:18pm

re: #120 haavamaal

Do you really think that God has a sex. If he made "man" in his image I would think he would be neither or both male and female.

Loves the post btw

Old joke, but a good one:

God: Adam, I'm going to make you a perfect companion. She's going to be smart, charming, sexy, everything you've ever dreamed of.

Adam: What's the catch?

God: Well, it's going to cost you an arm and a leg.

Adam: Okay, so what can I get for a rib?

[And then God created woman]

This is the perfect comeback to women who joke God created man first as practice, before creating his masterpiece.

143 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:34:30pm

Does anyone else find Brooke Baldwin of CNN (currently anchoring their coverage) absolutely smokin hot?

144 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:34:43pm

re: #140 oaktree

butterflies, daffodils, nipples on men...

Youtube Video
145 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:35:24pm

re: #107 lawhawk

Ah, but what about red matter?

The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of The Farce.

146 Kruk  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:36:04pm

re: #145 negativ

Intentional or typo?

147 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:36:08pm

re: #125 Ojoe

10 commandments...

no one is supposed to murder you

tell lies about you

etc.

All formalizations of culturally evolved conventions and large group control.

148 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:37:01pm

re: #126 recusancy

You just called god a "he" and "him". Why do you get to give god a sex but I don't?

In all works of fiction, the author gets to determine the gender of the characters.

149 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:37:05pm

re: #135 b_sharp

If you ask any small boy weather he would rather have overlords or enemies, he will always say enemies, because automatically in his heart from day one is the desire for freedom.

That's pretty close in my book to a desire for freedom authored by God, or if you are not willing to go that far, then by nature.

BBL, I have to get some work done.

150 AK-47%  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:37:22pm

re: #136 recusancy

Arguing with people who think the bible was written by a supreme being.

You cannot argue with people who believe that their Holy Scriptures were dictated by a divine being and merely written down and compiled by mere humans.

And these are the people who believe that their rights and laws derive from said Divine Being and can be found in said Holy Scriptures - and then proceed to start killing each other ove differences arising from their respective choices and/or interpretations of their Holy Scriptures.

151 sagehen  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:37:30pm

re: #109 haavamaal

Why should there be fallout for the GOP wonk that answered the question of someone he probably does not even know correctly? If the gov passed a law requiring me to turn over my guns I would ignore it too, and I can attest that I am no terrorist except to dove and deer during hunting season.

And if some pseudonym on the internet attests, that's proof enough for me.

152 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:39:38pm

re: #126 recusancy

You just called god a "he" and "him". Why do you get to give god a sex but I don't?

OMG!!! My bad!! Good point. I am fine with you calling god a "she", and with me calling god a "he". I would think that many would be terribly upset if we referred to god as "heshe" or "shehe"

Then some religious wing nut would come after us.

153 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:40:14pm

Photos of Japanese quake destruction

154 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:40:49pm

re: #146 Kruk

Intentional or typo?

A Mel Brooksism.

155 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:41:04pm

re: #153 negativ

Image: s_j12_11116542.jpg

156 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:41:18pm

re: #138 haavamaal

In Texas only hand guns need be registered. Of course I am certainly not referring to full auto stuff that requires a class 3 firearms license. I'm not a gun nut, and only own a couple shotguns and a couple rifles for hunting with the family.

He is telling a domestic terrorist to not comply with gun laws. If this was an imam talking to a Muslim terrorist would you feel differently about this? He was planing on kidnapping and killing police officers. That makes him an asshole.

157 MinisterO  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:41:59pm

re: #43 jea62

Strangely enough, we never hear about all those violent liberal plots to kill conservatives...

Your detractors have missed your point entirely. I apologize on their behalf.

158 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:42:05pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

He is telling a domestic terrorist to not comply with gun laws. If this was an imam talking to a Muslim terrorist would you feel differently about this? He was planing on kidnapping and killing police officers. That makes him an asshole.

It makes him more than an asshole.

159 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:42:26pm

re: #151 sagehen

point taken. I think I get to see some of those terrorist peeps from time to time running crap across my ranch by Laredo. They scare the hell outta my neighbors. Glad I don't live there.

160 Kruk  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:42:34pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

He is telling a domestic terrorist to not comply with gun laws. If this was an imam talking to a Muslim terrorist would you feel differently about this? He was planing on kidnapping and killing police officers. That makes him an asshole.

I'm waiting for someone to claim these arrest were politically motivated, or at least politically timed.

161 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:43:27pm

The idea that the rights are God-given is incoherent.

If these rights are not safe-guarded by God (and they're aren't because rights are violated on a continuous basis), in which way is the phrase "God-given rights" is meaningful? These rights don't grow on trees, you can't touch them, they're just ideas. They don't begin to exist unless they're agreed on by humans. But they can be agreed on by humans without being God-given either. So God is an unnecessary link.

The idea that the rights are God-given is also dangerous.

What God? Christian God? If so, then only the Christian-delineated norms are to be enforced? Let's take a single example. If we read the Bible we will see quite a restrictive sexual morality, with lots of activity being prohibited. So if we're to follow the "God-given" rights logic in this context, then there is no right for two adults to engage in consensual sexual relations. (Look at history.) The same can be applied to other Gods and some other rights.

So "God" is quite a poor basis for human rights even aside from the grave problem of lack of evidence of existence.

162 eastsider  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:44:33pm

Charles,

Any thoughts on the bill going through the Michigan legislature right now?

Eastsider

163 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:45:52pm

re: #161 Sergey Romanov

Computer God

Youtube Video
164 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:47:19pm

re: #160 Kruk

That would be intellectually dishonest, not that that doesn't happen. These A'holes need to be shipped to gitmo with the rest of their kind. Terrorists are terrorist.

Mr Trout,

I was not arguing your point, but he was obviously (well from the clip) just answering some schmuck. He never even turned to look at the guy. You do have a VERY good point that this would be treated very different if the guy was an Imam even though it shouldn't. There are good people from every religion and A'holes from them all too

165 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:47:30pm

re: #149 Ojoe

If you ask any small boy weather he would rather have overlords or enemies, he will always say enemies, because automatically in his heart from day one is the desire for freedom.

That's pretty close in my book to a desire for freedom authored by God, or if you are not willing to go that far, then by nature.

BBL, I have to get some work done.

Every small boy has overlords who are essential to his survival - his parents. Universal traits, if they in fact exist, are not evidence of a supreme being (beyond Milla Jovovich).

166 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:47:33pm

re: #161 Sergey Romanov

but yeah, we don't need a made-up entity to tell us how to treat each other in a reasonable and functioning society

167 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:47:46pm

re: #165 b_sharp

mooltipass

168 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:49:08pm

re: #161 Sergey Romanov

The idea that the rights are God-given is incoherent.

If these rights are not safe-guarded by God (and they're aren't because rights are violated on a continuous basis), in which way is the phrase "God-given rights" is meaningful? These rights don't grow on trees, you can't touch them, they're just ideas. They don't begin to exist unless they're agreed on by humans. But they can be agreed on by humans without being God-given either. So God is an unnecessary link.

The idea that the rights are God-given is also dangerous.

What God? Christian God? If so, then only the Christian-delineated norms are to be enforced? Let's take a single example. If we read the Bible we will see quite a restrictive sexual morality, with lots of activity being prohibited. So if we're to follow the "God-given" rights logic in this context, then there is no right for two adults to engage in consensual sexual relations. (Look at history.) The same can be applied to other Gods and some other rights.

So "God" is quite a poor basis for human rights even aside from the grave problem of lack of evidence of existence.

Two points: I have been sitting here considering if there is anything I can say about the existence of God that would make any difference whatsoever in what anyone believes. Probably not.

Secondly, the idea of God-given rights was in contrast to the idea that the state gives the rights. What the state gives, the state can take. The idea that the founders stated was that their rights were not something the state could take at will, not legitimately at any rate, and this gave them the right to fight for those rights, and made the taking of those rights an offense.

The idea here is that if certain rights are taken away by the state, this is an illegitimate act which people have the right to fight against. This stands in contrast with the absolute monarch ideal, which states that God wants this monarch to rule, so he has all rights over you.

169 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:50:25pm

Look at the Christian Dark Ages. Or look at the countries where political Islam rules now. God-fearing societies all around. How about the human rights there?

170 The Left  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:50:27pm

This by the way -- the notion that our rights are due to our status as persons-- is exactly why anti-choice yobbos are so eager to grant personhood status to fetuses. Then they could have a 'right'to not be aborted.

171 kirkspencer  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:50:30pm

re: #152 haavamaal

OMG!!! My bad!! Good point. I am fine with you calling god a "she", and with me calling god a "he". I would think that many would be terribly upset if we referred to god as "heshe" or "shehe"

Then some religious wing nut would come after us.

Perhaps she-he-it?

(could not resist...)///

172 leftynyc  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:51:07pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

Are your guns registered? I'm pretty sure you are required by law to register your guns.


Can't speak for the other 49 states but in NY it's only handguns that need to be registered. Shotguns for hunting and such do not.

173 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:51:53pm

BreakingNews Breaking News

Japan says radiation levels surges outside nuclear plant, expands area subject to evacuation - AP

174 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:52:05pm

re: #168 EmmmieG

I understand this and this was a progress for its time, even if coached in theological language. It's a mistake however to draw some philosophical lessons from this.

175 Kronocide  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:52:25pm

re: #157 MinisterO

Your detractors have missed your point entirely. I apologize on their behalf.

Actually a sarc tag or a reputation for it would have helped.

176 AK-47%  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:52:29pm

re: #161 Sergey Romanov


You are ignoring the basic premise of the religious right that America is a Christian Nation, that our status as the richest and most powerful nation in the world owes itself to His Grace because our laws and society reflect His Divine Will.

Which is why they are so hell-bent (so to speak) on stifling homosexuality, abortion, prostitution, gambling (except on the stock market) and most anything else they see as dimishing us in His sight, which will necessarily lead to our downfall.

177 Mocking Jay  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:52:38pm

re: #172 leftynyc

Can't speak for the other 49 states but in NY it's only handguns that need to be registered. Shotguns for hunting and such do not.

I thought the city had different rules.

178 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:53:22pm

re: #167 WindUpBird

mooltipass

What are you, a meat popsicle?

179 leftynyc  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:53:43pm

re: #173 Stanley Sea

BreakingNews Breaking News

Japan says radiation levels surges outside nuclear plant, expands area subject to evacuation - AP


Oy vey - that doesn't sound good at all. Any idea how many people live in the immediate area?

180 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:54:04pm

re: #176 ralphieboy

You are ignoring the basic premise of the religious right that America is a Christian Nation, that our status as the richest and most powerful nation in the world owes itself to His Grace because our laws and society reflect His Divine Will.

Which is why they are so hell-bent (so to speak) on stifling homosexuality, abortion, prostitution, gambling (except on the stock market) and most anything else they see as dimishing us in His sight, which will necessarily lead to our downfall.

Your Founding Fathers ignored this premise too, so... :P

181 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:54:22pm

re: #133 recusancy

I say we use the 8 buddhist precepts instead of the 10 commandments.

Well there are 10 Buddhist Precepts too, and I could not live with at least 3 of them and one is illegal I think as far as kids are concerned. A list:

I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from ...
1....harming living beings. -- OK
2....taking things not freely given. -- OK
3....sexual misconduct. -- Ok, but needs defined
4....false speech. -- Ok
5....intoxicating drinks and drugs causing heedlessness. --No way I need me beer/wine/whiskey from time to time.
6....taking untimely meals. -- Ok
7....dancing, singing, music and watching grotesque mime. -- Where is the fun in this are they Baptist?
8....use of garlands, perfumes and personal adornment. -- Ok, hell I'm a guy
9....use of high seats. -- Very convenient for kids (joke)
10....accepting gold or silver.

182 leftynyc  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:54:57pm

re: #177 JasonA

I thought the city had different rules.


That's possible and I will look it up later but I don't live in the city. Just work here. I know even republican mayors were very into gun control in the city.

183 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:56:06pm

re: #181 haavamaal

Well there are 10 Buddhist Precepts too, and I could not live with at least 3 of them and one is illegal I think as far as kids are concerned. A list:

I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from ...
1...harming living beings. -- OK
2...taking things not freely given. -- OK
3...sexual misconduct. -- Ok, but needs defined
4...false speech. -- Ok
5...intoxicating drinks and drugs causing heedlessness. --No way I need me beer/wine/whiskey from time to time.
6...taking untimely meals. -- Ok
7...dancing, singing, music and watching grotesque mime. -- Where is the fun in this are they Baptist?
8...use of garlands, perfumes and personal adornment. -- Ok, hell I'm a guy
9...use of high seats. -- Very convenient for kids (joke)
10...accepting gold or silver.

Buddhists are against midnight snacks? No can do. They also seem to be against Valentine's day. Were women allowed to vote on these?

184 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:57:02pm

re: #183 EmmmieG

Given the history of that region I doubt that women voted on these.

185 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:57:10pm

re: #168 EmmmieG

BTW, Emmie, do I remember correctly that you're of LDS background?

186 leftynyc  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:57:42pm

re: #177 JasonA

I thought the city had different rules.


Found something pretty quickly:

State Requirements
Rifles and Shotguns
•Permit to purchase rifles and shotguns? No.

•Registration of rifles and shotguns? No, except in New York City.

•Licensing of owners of rifles and shotguns? No, except in New York City.

•Permit to carry rifles and shotguns? No, except in New York City.

Handguns

•Permit to purchase handgun? Yes.

•Registration of handguns? Yes.

•Licensing of owners of handguns? Yes.

•Permit to carry handguns? Yes.

Other Requirements

•Is there a State waiting period? Up to 6-month wait to acquire permit to purchase a handgun.

•Is there a FBI *NICS check for firearm transactions? Yes.

•Permit to carry a concealed weapon required? Yes.

•Record of sale: Yes.
*NICS - National Instant Check System

Caution: This summary is meant for general purposes only. Firearm laws frequently change.

187 General Nimrod Bodfish  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:57:47pm

re: #173 Stanley Sea

#
2149: The Kyodo news agency is now citing a safety panel as saying that the radiation level inside one of the reactors at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant is 1,000 times higher than normal.

188 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:57:59pm

re: #185 Sergey Romanov

BTW, Emmie, do I remember correctly that you're of LDS background?

Yes.

189 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:58:23pm

re: #17 Romantic Heretic

And better ones than the M16, in my opinion.

FN-FAL for the win.

190 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:59:23pm

re: #189 wlewisiii

Personally I think H&K is better.

191 AK-47%  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 1:59:44pm

re: #180 Sergey Romanov

The Founding Fathers (TM) serve exactly one purpose to the Religious Right: they are a name to be invoked whenever they want to turn the clock back to the late XVIII century.

I remember when Barbara Walters questioned Sarah Palin (who is also found of mentioning the FF's whever she sees fit) to name her favorite Founding Father.

"I guess it was all of them" was her answer, in an attempt to evade the fact that she does not know enough about any of them individually to give any sort of coherent response...

192 Mocking Jay  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:00:24pm

re: #186 leftynyc

Yeah, that sounds right to me. Just imagine how much safer NYC would be if everyone were packin' heat...

193 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:00:31pm

re: #191 ralphieboy

The Founding Fathers (TM) serve exactly one purpose to the Religious Right: they are a name to be invoked whenever they want to turn the clock back to the late XVIII century.

I remember when Barbara Walters questioned Sarah Palin (who is also found of mentioning the FF's whever she sees fit) to name her favorite Founding Father.

"I guess it was all of them" was her answer, in an attempt to evade the fact that she does not know enough about any of them individually to give any sort of coherent response...

I love it when people say Lincoln.

194 Gus  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:00:32pm

This is hilarious coming from him:

@Michael_Yon Michael Yon
Don't Trust to Government... [Link: fb.me...]

and he follows up with:

@Michael_Yon Michael Yon
Radioactive Lies Starting: Trust nothing If these reports are correct, they have lost control of the reactor:... [Link: fb.me...]

Yeah, "don't trust to government" unless they're driving you into a war based on known unknowns. From war mongering cheer leader to "don't trust to government." That's ironic.

195 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:01:38pm

re: #193 recusancy

I love it when people say Lincoln.

Is it the tongue showing between the lips when the initial 'L' is formed that turns you on?

196 Gus  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:01:59pm

Iraq has WMDs! Elevnety!

Don't trust to government!

lol

197 AK-47%  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:02:02pm

re: #195 b_sharp

Is it the tongue showing between the lips when the initial 'L' is formed that turns you on?


It's the logs...

198 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:02:11pm

re: #193 recusancy

As a conservative I still have yet to discover why the right (of which I don't consider myself one of) is so enamored with that moron.

199 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:02:16pm

re: #191 ralphieboy

The Founding Fathers (TM) serve exactly one purpose to the Religious Right: they are a name to be invoked whenever they want to turn the clock back to the late XVIII century.

I remember when Barbara Walters questioned Sarah Palin (who is also found of mentioning the FF's whever she sees fit) to name her favorite Founding Father.

"I guess it was all of them" was her answer, in an attempt to evade the fact that she does not know enough about any of them individually to give any sort of coherent response...

I'm waiting for the woman who can say "I'm torn between Mercy Otis Warren and Abigail Adams."

I'll probably keep waiting.

200 sagehen  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:02:33pm

re: #182 leftynyc

That's possible and I will look it up later but I don't live in the city. Just work here. I know even republican mayors were very into gun control in the city.

Since that gun control has reduced our homicide rate by 75% in the last 20 years, I have to say it's working as planned.

There's still plenty of guns around; getting a license is about as difficult as getting a driver's license (can you pass a written test and demonstrate competence? Are you not a convicted felon? Here you go then.), and I don't know anybody who's been turned down.

Banks, office buildings, hotels and large apartment buildings all have on-site armed private security, most cabbies and retailers keep a weapon handy while they're working, and nobody really cares if you keep even an unregistered gun in your own home. But people who are caught carrying unlicensed go to jail.

201 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:03:08pm

re: #198 haavamaal

As a conservative I still have yet to discover why the right (of which I don't consider myself one of) is so enamored with that moron.

That moron, being Lincoln??

203 General Nimrod Bodfish  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:04:24pm

re: #179 leftynyc

According to this Wikipedia article on Okuma (the city the NPP is in), it's about 10,945.

204 engineer cat  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:05:00pm

re: #43 jea62

Strangely enough, we never hear about all those violent liberal plots to kill conservatives...

i think jea62 meant to be sarcastic here

205 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:05:05pm

re: #190 haavamaal

Personally I think H&K is better.

Depends on if you reload. H&K is seriously harsh on the brass. ;) What I really want is a FAL based rifle in 5.56 but they're few and far between.

206 Gus  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:05:41pm

bbl

207 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:05:45pm

re: #202 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The lyrics tell the story of a man who looks up and whistles while he is walking so that his tears won't fall. The verses of the song describe his memories and feelings.

I just want to cry.

I would offer you a piece of cake, but I have none. I don't even have a panookie*, because we ate it all.

I can offer you the last spoon of cookie dough.

At least Japan is a country with enough wealth to put itself back together.

*A panookie, for those of you who don't live and die by desserts, is a chocolate chip cookie made about 12" in diameter in a pizza pan.

208 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:06:12pm

re: #188 EmmmieG

Yes.

OK. I was just thinking about one of your sentences above. Unlike, say, evangelicals, LDS don't have a problem with an infinite past, there are even some nifty articles by Mormon Blake Ostler online taking issue with Bill Craig's Kalam argument, and Kalam is usually invoked along with improbability of life arguments in existence of God debates by evangelicals, so I was just curious what arguments are used - if any - in such debates by the Mormons. (This is not a bait to start a debate :P).

209 MinisterO  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:08:41pm

re: #175 BigPapa

Actually a sarc tag or a reputation for it would have helped.

It was pretty obvious. Perhaps you need one of these.

[Link: www.sarcasmmeter.com...]

211 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:09:56pm

re: #205 wlewisiii

Depends on if you reload. H&K is seriously harsh on the brass. ;) What I really want is a FAL based rifle in 5.56 but they're few and far between.

There is a problem whenever reloaders gets too much say in military weapon design...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Excerpt:
Another drawback was that the gun was fed by 20-round strips of cartridges. This limited continuous fire, as the gun could only be fired rapidly when a second crew member fed in one ammunition strip after another. The rounds still had to be oiled to stop the cases sticking in the chamber, with all the disadvantages this entailed. Another peculiarity of the design is that the spent cases were reinserted into the strip as each round was fired. The mechanical energy required to perform this function substantially reduced the rate of fire, and the weapon tended to jam whenever a case was reinserted even slightly out of line. It also meant that in the event the metal clips had to be reused, the gunner's assistant had to first remove the empty cases from the strips.

(bolding added)

212 recusancy  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:11:07pm

re: #198 haavamaal

As a conservative I still have yet to discover why the right (of which I don't consider myself one of) is so enamored with that moron.

Can you expand on this?

213 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:11:14pm

re: #201 recusancy

That moron, being Lincoln??

That moron being Palin.

214 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:11:49pm

re: #138 haavamaal

In Texas only hand guns need be registered. Of course I am certainly not referring to full auto stuff that requires a class 3 firearms license. I'm not a gun nut, and only own a couple shotguns and a couple rifles for hunting with the family.

There is no handgun registration in Texas. You do need a permit if you wish to carry concealed.

215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:11:53pm

re: #213 haavamaal

That moron being Palin.

Often compared to Lincoln, though.
/

216 engineer cat  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:12:28pm

Francis “Schaeffer” Cox, Lonnie Vernon, Karen Vernon, Coleman Barney and Michael Anderson are accused of conspiring to commit murder, kidnapping, and arson

anybody know what these members of the Sovereign Sociopaths movement hoped to accomplish by these actions?

217 AK-47%  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:13:26pm

re: #213 haavamaal

That moron being Palin.


One of the roles of a politician is to serve as a screen onto which people can project their personal ideals.
Sarah is good at that: the self-reliant, hardy, non-intellectual outsider. Lots of folks like to buy into that image, and Sarah is their ticket.

218 Kronocide  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:13:59pm

re: #209 MinisterO

It was pretty obvious. Perhaps you need one of these.

[Link: www.sarcasmmeter.com...]

It was pretty obvious to 4 people and not pretty obvious to 9 people.

219 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:14:15pm

re: #208 Sergey Romanov

OK. I was just thinking about one of your sentences above. Unlike, say, evangelicals, LDS don't have a problem with an infinite past, there are even some nifty articles by Mormon Blake Ostler online taking issue with Bill Craig's Kalam argument, and Kalam is usually invoked along with improbability of life arguments in existence of God debates by evangelicals, so I was just curious what arguments are used - if any - in such debates by the Mormons. (This is not a bait to start a debate :P).

Actually, most Mormons don't get particularly philosophical. We're usually pretty practical. (People with large families tend to have to live in the here and now most of the time.)

We not only don't have a problem with an infinite past, we believe in an infinite past. We also usually don't debate the existence of God. If Brother Ostler wants to, fine, but most Mormons believe in God because they have felt the Holy Spirit, not because someone else convinced them to. It's a matter of faith.

220 jaunte  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:14:16pm

re: #216 engineer dog

I think their goal is not to pay Federal taxes.

221 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:14:28pm

re: #205 wlewisiii

I was referring to rifles, but I have shot the FN Five-seveN which I think you are referring to. Nice gun. However, that particular gun was designed to penetrate tactical police armor, and I see no real use for it as a practical civilian weapon.

222 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:14:54pm

[Link: fbihop.tumblr.com...]

"Actual signs going up on Wisconsin highways. Apparently the DOT workers are displeased."

Think it's real?

223 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:16:00pm

re: #218 BigPapa

It was pretty obvious to 4 people and not pretty obvious to 9 people.

I abstained.

No button for that, yet.

224 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:16:02pm

re: #214 negativ

There is defacto registration at the time of purchase. However the personal sale of weapons is unrestricted.

225 Mocking Jay  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:16:21pm

More Union busting!!!


@CBSNews
CBS News
The NFL players' union has decertified, threatening the 2011 season. DEVELOPING

226 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:18:23pm

re: #225 JasonA

More Union busting!!!

@CBSNews
CBS News
The NFL players' union has decertified, threatening the 2011 season. DEVELOPING

Keep Walker away from sports.

227 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:18:50pm

re: #225 JasonA

More Union busting!!!


@CBSNews
CBS News
The NFL players' union has decertified, threatening the 2011 season. DEVELOPING

I would think that "We're really big and used to smashing into people" would work well as a collective bargaining tool.

228 albusteve  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:19:01pm

as for the post...another big win for LE
I tell you, we are very good, possibly the best in the world....
I continue to be impressed

230 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:19:10pm

re: #225 JasonA

Great!! At least maybe there will be some opportunity for some poor schmuck to be a "replacement player"

231 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:19:46pm

re: #219 EmmmieG

Actually, most Mormons don't get particularly philosophical. We're usually pretty practical. (People with large families tend to have to live in the here and now most of the time.)

We not only don't have a problem with an infinite past, we believe in an infinite past. We also usually don't debate the existence of God. If Brother Ostler wants to, fine, but most Mormons believe in God because they have felt the Holy Spirit, not because someone else convinced them to. It's a matter of faith.

Thanks. I figured as much, since the missionaries don't try to engage in rational apologetics (like some evangelicals do) but rather ask to pray about the truth of the BoM.

232 Mocking Jay  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:20:15pm

re: #230 haavamaal

Great!! At least maybe there will be some opportunity for some poor schmuck to be a "replacement player"

I really can't muster any sympathy for the owners or the players. *shrug*

233 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:21:01pm

re: #232 JasonA

me either

234 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:21:05pm

re: #221 haavamaal

I was referring to rifles, but I have shot the FN Five-seveN which I think you are referring to. Nice gun. However, that particular gun was designed to penetrate tactical police armor, and I see no real use for it as a practical civilian weapon.

I meant rifles as well.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

;)

235 General Nimrod Bodfish  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:21:30pm
#
2156: The Onagawa nuclear power plant also suffered a fire in a non-nuclear turbine building, which took eight hours to extinguish, according to the World Nuclear Association. A minor fire burned in a non-nuclear service building of the Fukushima-Daini plant, but this was extinguished within two hours, the WNA added.

#
2217: The Associated Press is also now citing Japanese nuclear safety agency officials as saying that radiation levels inside one of the reators at the Fukushima-Daini nuclear power plant have surged to 1,000 times their normal levels after the cooling system failed. Pressure inside the reactor has risen to 1.5 times the level considered normal.

236 albusteve  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:22:14pm

re: #232 JasonA

I really can't muster any sympathy for the owners or the players. *shrug*

I can...the owners really want the 18 game season and I think it's a ludicrous, out and out money grab....fuck them

237 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:22:40pm

re: #232 JasonA

I really can't muster any sympathy for the owners or the players. *shrug*

I definitely have sympathy for the journeymen players. There is no way their short playing time / possibility for injury compares to the bank the owners make off of us, the fans.

238 AK-47%  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:22:47pm

Read some of the fellow's rambling.

"...whenever a government abandons the purpose for which we have created it...it is our right and duty to entrust this power to new Stewards who will not depart from the laws we have given them..."

Now the first part is full-on from the Declaration of independence, but the second part about "entrusting power to new stewards" is not.

As long as our government is legally and farily elected, these arguments are flawed.

If I were to be faced with a choice between the law and my conscience, I might opt to follow my conscience, but I would have to accept the ruling of the law.

I might choose to ignore the law, but I do not place myself above it, as I recognize no other persons who would place themselves above it.

239 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:23:50pm

re: #222 Stanley Sea

[Link: fbihop.tumblr.com...]

"Actual signs going up on Wisconsin highways. Apparently the DOT workers are displeased."

Think it's real?

Probably fake but someone went to the trouble to paint, professionally, a very correct looking sign. Definitely not a Photoshop. Serious anger channeled well, I'd say.

240 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:24:53pm

re: #234 wlewisiii

5.56 is too small to hunt deer and hogs in TX. There is too much wounding the animal and not the fast kill. I am a hunter, but don't want to hurt the poor thing. FN does not (to my knowledge) make a larger caliber rifle where as HK makes a real nice .308.

241 MinisterO  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:27:29pm

re: #218 BigPapa

It was pretty obvious to 4 people and not pretty obvious to 9 people.

That's pathetic. Some people can't admit they're wrong.

242 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:28:52pm

re: #234 wlewisiii

I have not seen that particular rifle. I don't do the assault gun thing. In the army I got enough of that. I just get hunting stuff, and shoot with some guys in the hood.

243 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:29:45pm

re: #240 haavamaal

5.56 is too small to hunt deer and hogs in TX. There is too much wounding the animal and not the fast kill. I am a hunter, but don't want to hurt the poor thing. FN does not (to my knowledge) make a larger caliber rifle where as HK makes a real nice .308.

A hunting rifle is my Marlin 7-08 or my 7x57 Spanish Mauser bolt actions. Other firearms have other purposes.

The FAL is a .308 action - that's why it's so hard to find a 5.56 variant. Not a big deal, my bolts are quite sufficient to my real world needs.

244 albusteve  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:30:18pm

re: #242 haavamaal

I have not seen that particular rifle. I don't do the assault gun thing. In the army I got enough of that. I just get hunting stuff, and shoot with some guys in the hood.

I used to hunt deer up north, but I'd shoot a hog in a heartbeat if they taste good

245 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:30:52pm

re: #221 haavamaal

[citation needed]

re: #240 haavamaal

5.56 is too small to hunt deer and hogs in TX. There is too much wounding the animal and not the fast kill. I am a hunter, but don't want to hurt the poor thing. FN does not (to my knowledge) make a larger caliber rifle where as HK makes a real nice .308.


The FN FAL is chambered in 7.62x51 NATO, which is extremely similar to .308 Winchester.

246 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:32:59pm

re: #243 wlewisiii

My dad uses the Marlin, I like Savage, but that's just a personal preference for comfort. I'll bet the Mauser is nice!!!

247 ContinentalOp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:34:31pm

Michelle Malkin will soon explain that these folks are liberals.

248 haavamaal  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:45:18pm

Hope everyone has a great weekend. Its spring break for the kiddo, so going to the ranch for some R&R with a bunch of her friends. Wife wants me to get waivers for her friends if they fall off a horse or something. Jeeze how did we come to be so litigious?

249 Achilles Tang  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:51:52pm

re: #80 Ojoe

Your cells think so when the nucleus fires out ionizing radiation.

Reminds me of the comments from the moon astronauts long ago. They would see flashes of light often (see "stars") which came from alpha particles zipping through their eyeballs and triggering the optic cells.

The reason we don't hear about that from the space station or the shuttle is that it is low enough orbit to be shielded by the earth's magnetic field.

250 Kronocide  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 2:51:57pm

re: #241 MinisterO

That's pathetic. Some people can't admit they're wrong.

What's pathetic is your obsession over the issue. So what if I am wrong, it's over, done. Move on.

251 b_sharp  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 3:00:09pm

re: #249 Naso Tang

Reminds me of the comments from the moon astronauts long ago. They would see flashes of light often (see "stars") which came from alpha particles zipping through their eyeballs and triggering the optic cells.

The reason we don't hear about that from the space station or the shuttle is that it is low enough orbit to be shielded by the earth's magnetic field.

With a little practice, they should be able to catch those particles in their teeth.

252 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 4:09:57pm

re: #73 recusancy

Maddow on good Gov Snyder here in Michigan:


[Video]

Poor people and seniors sure have had it too good for too long. //

The GOP more and more resembles the Communists they claim to hate.

253 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Mar 11, 2011 4:22:19pm

re: #211 oaktree

There is a problem whenever reloaders gets too much say in military weapon design...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Excerpt:
Another drawback was that the gun was fed by 20-round strips of cartridges. This limited continuous fire, as the gun could only be fired rapidly when a second crew member fed in one ammunition strip after another. The rounds still had to be oiled to stop the cases sticking in the chamber, with all the disadvantages this entailed. Another peculiarity of the design is that the spent cases were reinserted into the strip as each round was fired. The mechanical energy required to perform this function substantially reduced the rate of fire, and the weapon tended to jam whenever a case was reinserted even slightly out of line. It also meant that in the event the metal clips had to be reused, the gunner's assistant had to first remove the empty cases from the strips.

(bolding added)

Also, you had to oil the cartridges for it to work properly. A smart thing to do in a desert environment.

254 Dan M.  Sat, Mar 12, 2011 8:32:43am

What's the big deal about telling someone not to comply with some hypothetical law that is unconstitutional?

There is no gun registration law in this country, and certainly not in Alaska. Don Young was not telling anyone to break any existing law, and he wasn't telling a "terrorist" to do anything. He was telling a citizen to disobey some unconstitutional law if it were passed in the future. That citizen later turned out to be a suspected terrorist. Big deal. How does this make Don Young a nutcase?

Guess what? I'm not going to register my guns if anyone tells me to, either. The government has no more of a right to know every gun that I own than they have a right to know every word that comes out of my mouth or every thought that enters my head.

If someone passed a law saying you had to buy a permit to speak or that you were forbidden from locking your doors, and someone recommended disobedience, would you cream your pants and exclaim "YES THAT'S RIGHT! A RIGHT-WING NUTJOB TOLD THESE PEOPLE TO SPEAK WITHOUT PERMISSION AND TO LOCK THEIR DOORS! WHAT HAPPENED TO LAW AND ORDER IN THIS COUNTRY!?"

255 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 12, 2011 5:31:04pm

re: #254 Dan M.

Gun registration isn't unconstitutional. And since he specifically said-- "If any government should decide that we have to register certain of our arms"-- there are definitely arms that are illegal, as should be.


Guess what? I'm not going to register my guns if anyone tells me to, either. The government has no more of a right to know every gun that I own than they have a right to know every word that comes out of my mouth or every thought that enters my head.

Why not?

256 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 13, 2011 11:14:25am

I knew eventually someone would show up and defend this idiocy. It's inevitable.

257 garhighway  Mon, Mar 14, 2011 5:22:56am

re: #254 Dan M.

What's the big deal about telling someone not to comply with some hypothetical law that is unconstitutional?

There is no gun registration law in this country, and certainly not in Alaska. Don Young was not telling anyone to break any existing law, and he wasn't telling a "terrorist" to do anything. He was telling a citizen to disobey some unconstitutional law if it were passed in the future. That citizen later turned out to be a suspected terrorist. Big deal. How does this make Don Young a nutcase?

Guess what? I'm not going to register my guns if anyone tells me to, either. The government has no more of a right to know every gun that I own than they have a right to know every word that comes out of my mouth or every thought that enters my head.

If someone passed a law saying you had to buy a permit to speak or that you were forbidden from locking your doors, and someone recommended disobedience, would you cream your pants and exclaim "YES THAT'S RIGHT! A RIGHT-WING NUTJOB TOLD THESE PEOPLE TO SPEAK WITHOUT PERMISSION AND TO LOCK THEIR DOORS! WHAT HAPPENED TO LAW AND ORDER IN THIS COUNTRY!?"

You're way wrong, but that's OK. Second Amendment absolutists aren't known for their reading comprehension skills.


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Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
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