Here’s a thread to discuss Obama’s shift toward military action in Libya. In President Obama’s statement today, he stressed that no US ground troops would be deployed to Libya.
1 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:01:54pm |
#
2059: Reuters reports that four Spanish F-18 fighters have taken off from Madrid as part of the UN coalition.
| 2 |
Racer X Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:01:55pm |
Now if we just put as much of our resources and energy over in Japan . . . .
| 3 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:02:42pm |
Ground troops or not, the US will be blamed for any bad outcome, unfortunately.
| 4 |
Racer X Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:05:23pm |
re: #3 Sergey Romanov
Ground troops or not, the US will be blamed for any bad outcome, unfortunately.
Most of them will still hate the U.S. no matter what.
How many future martyrs were created today?
| 5 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:05:25pm |
re: #2 Racer X
Now if we just put as much of our resources and energy over in Japan . . .
We have. We sent as much as Japan asked for. If they need more help, we'll send it.
| 6 |
Obdicut Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:05:38pm |
God I hope the effect is Qadaffi's immediately resigning. The likelihood seems low, though.
| 7 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:05:54pm |
re: #5 Dark_Falcon
We have. We sent as much as Japan asked for. If they need more help, we'll send it.
QFT
| 8 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:06:00pm |
re: #2 Racer X
Now if we just put as much of our resources and energy over in Japan . . .
We have far more resources near Japan than we do taking part in this op.
| 9 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:06:19pm |
re: #6 Obdicut
God I hope the effect is Qadaffi's immediately resigning. The likelihood seems low, though.
He could be more cowardly than crazy. Time will tell.
| 10 |
Racer X Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:07:08pm |
re: #5 Dark_Falcon
We have. We sent as much as Japan asked for. If they need more help, we'll send it.
They need more help.
| 11 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:07:42pm |
re: #2 Racer X
Now if we just put as much of our resources and energy over in Japan . . .
Oh, yeah I'm with you on that. But on the topic at hand I hope we put the Libyan forces back to the stone age. If he can't be trusted to stop the violence, and we all know he can't, then he doesn't deserve to have the fire power to commit genocide which is where he undoubtedly has been heading.
| 12 |
Big Joe Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:08:33pm |
| 13 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:09:33pm |
re: #10 Racer X
They need more help.
And we are sending it. But the forces sent to Japan will be force we would not need in Libya. Libya requires combat aircraft and warships, whereas Japan needs relief supplies, civil affairs units, and civilian specialists.
| 14 |
Racer X Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:09:45pm |
Operation Odyssey Dawn.
Let's hope it is swift and effective.
| 15 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:09:48pm |
"From the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..." US Marines Theme
| 16 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:09:53pm |
re: #10 Racer X
They need more help.
There's only so much that can be done. Especially in the containing of the Fukushima reactors.
| 17 |
Bear Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:09:54pm |
I fear that short of using an A-Bomb some ground troops will be needed. Just hope and pray those are not American.
| 19 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:10:55pm |
#
2106: Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriquez Zapatero has also made two military bases available for use in the operation, Reuters adds. It says the country has offered a Boeing 707 refuelling plane, a submarine, a naval frigate and a surveillance plane to the cause."
| 20 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:11:00pm |
| 21 |
AK-47% Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:11:01pm |
re: #17 Bear
I fear that short of using an A-Bomb some ground troops will be needed. Just hope and pray those are not American.
It would only make sense to put French or Arab ground forces in first if they are needed: that is their sphere of influence.
| 22 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:11:24pm |
re: #14 Racer X
Operation Odyssey Dawn.
Let's hope it is swift and effective.
And the minimal number of civilian casualties.
| 24 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:13:23pm |
re: #19 Varek Raith
#
2106: Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriquez Zapatero has also made two military bases available for use in the operation, Reuters adds. It says the country has offered a Boeing 707 refuelling plane, a submarine, a naval frigate and a surveillance plane to the cause."
That socialist pig, I knew he would help his fellow socialist Kadda... wait, what?
| 25 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:13:39pm |
Oh yeah and here comes the rhetoric and mandatory bull shit being spouted by the Libyan gov't spokesman. The crap is truly flying now.
| 26 |
abolitionist Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:14:05pm |
Soon I expect a declaration from the Colonel that the people of Libya are unworthy of him.
| 27 |
Linden Arden Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:14:21pm |
re: #21 ralphieboy
It would only make sense to put French or Arab ground forces in first if they are needed: that is their sphere of influence.
You know its been decided on by now - Obama wouldn't commit otherwise.
And Qaddafi should watch the video of Saddam's last few minutes and negotiate a permanent prison cell.
| 29 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:14:50pm |
re: #26 abolitionist
Soon I expect a declaration from the Colonel that the people of Libya are unworthy of him.
Way to indirectly godwin a thread! ///
| 30 |
Racer X Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:15:04pm |
re: #12 mracb
Shall we bomb them into accepting it?
The people in Japan are in serious distress - and will be for quite some time.
| 31 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:15:35pm |
re: #2 Racer X
We have a lot going on for Japan. Troops, ships, planes, experts...
[Link: blog.usnavyseals.com...]
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
[Link: www.kgun9.com...]
[Link: www.defense.gov...]
| 32 |
AK-47% Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:15:51pm |
re: #28 Gus 802
To celebrate we'll get a bucket of KFC.
//
I will urge all guests at my house to wear button-front jeans: it is a no-fly zone!
| 33 |
Ojoe Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:16:00pm |
This kind of principled international military response, had it occurred in another context in the late 1930s, would have saved millions of lives.
| 34 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:16:26pm |
re: #25 Dragon_Lady
Oh yeah and here comes the rhetoric and mandatory bull shit being spouted by the Libyan gov't spokesman. The crap is truly flying now.
CNN should hire Jon Stewart to translate Libyan government statement from Bullshit to English.
| 35 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:16:33pm |
re: #32 ralphieboy
I will urge all guests at my house to wear button-front jeans: it is a no-fly zone!
Velcro "zip" front swim trunks.
//
| 36 |
AK-47% Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:16:42pm |
re: #33 Ojoe
This kind of principled international military response, had it occurred in another context in the late 1930s, would have saved millions of lives.
It took the events of the first half of the 1940's to teach us all that lesson...
| 37 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:16:46pm |
re: #32 ralphieboy
I will urge all guests at my house to wear button-front jeans: it is a no-fly zone!
Let's make Paris, France a no-fly zone! - Palin
| 38 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:16:52pm |
re: #26 abolitionist
Soon I expect a declaration from the Colonel that the people of Libya are unworthy of him.
We can only hope! Personally I'm not gonna hold my breath, I'm likely to turn blue! A martyr he is not, and never will be.
| 39 |
Lidane Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:17:09pm |
re: #25 Dragon_Lady
Oh yeah and here comes the rhetoric and mandatory bull shit being spouted by the Libyan gov't spokesman. The crap is truly flying now.
I was listening to a BBC News podcast and heard excerpts from an interview that Christiane Amanpour did with one of Gaddafi's sons and it was hilarious. The guy made Baghdad Bob sound like he had his shit together. I laughed.
| 40 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:17:29pm |
re: #39 Lidane
I was listening to a BBC News podcast and heard excerpts from an interview that Christiane Amanpour did with one of Gaddafi's sons and it was hilarious. The guy made Baghdad Bob sound like he had his shit together. I laughed.
Same here.
| 42 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:18:12pm |
re: #32 ralphieboy
I will urge all guests at my house to wear button-front jeans: it is a no-fly zone!
LOL! OMG, if it didn't make cough so hard I'd break down laughing at that one!
| 43 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:18:16pm |
re: #33 Ojoe
This kind of principled international military response, had it occurred in another context in the late 1930s, would have saved millions of lives.
That would have been much harder, as Henry Turtledove is exploring in some of his latest novels. Germany was a far harder foe than a tin-pot dictatorship like Libya.
| 44 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:18:20pm |
"Operation Odyssey Dawn'. Does that mean we spend 10 years getting home?
| 45 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:18:46pm |
| 46 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:19:27pm |
re: #44 Decatur Deb
"Operation Odyssey Dawn'. Does that mean we spend 10 years getting home?
No no. Honda's Odyssey, not Homer's Odyssey.
| 47 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:20:11pm |
re: #33 Ojoe
This kind of principled international military response, had it occurred in another context in the late 1930s, would have saved millions of lives.
Right, and you have to wonder why Obama is so willing to surrender US leadership to the French now, but back then he was all pals with Hitler.
| 48 |
Racer X Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:20:32pm |
re: #44 Decatur Deb
"Operation Odyssey Dawn'. Does that mean we spend 10 years getting home?
The French start shit, then we take over, then . . . . Holy Crap! This is Vietnam Part 2!!!
| 49 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:20:33pm |
re: #39 Lidane
I was listening to a BBC News podcast and heard excerpts from an interview that Christiane Amanpour did with one of Gaddafi's sons and it was hilarious. The guy made Baghdad Bob sound like he had his shit together. I laughed.
Yeah, me too! On a side note, Christiane Amanpour is one of the only talking heads and news reporters on that's worth listening too! Fabulous woman, and talent!
| 50 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:20:45pm |
re: #36 ralphieboy
It took the events of the first half of the 1940's to teach us all that lesson...
In 1939 the US Army was smaller than the NY City police force. We didn't believe in Big Government.
| 51 |
engineer cat Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:20:55pm |
teevee machine sez ghaddafi to rave shortly
| 52 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:21:29pm |
re: #49 Dragon_Lady
Yeah, me too! On a side note, Christiane Amanpour is one of the only talking heads and news reporters on that's worth listening too! Fabulous woman, and talent!
All the CNN and MSNBC foreign correspondents are great.
| 53 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:21:45pm |
re: #15 PhillyPretzel
"From the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..." US Marines Theme
The Halls of Montezuma might be almost as scary as the shores of Tripoli right about now...
| 54 |
AK-47% Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:21:50pm |
| 55 |
Ojoe Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:22:02pm |
re: #43 Dark_Falcon
In the mid 1930s the French Army was way stronger that the German army, if you trust Winston Churchill's analysis in "The Gathering Storm."
| 56 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:22:04pm |
re: #46 wrenchwench
No no. Honda's Odyssey, not Homer's Odyssey.
Omg, please stop! The laughing is making me cough too hard, I'm gonna pass out from lack of oxygen! LOL!
| 57 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:22:18pm |
Crazy Pam sez.....
President Hussein Backs Al Qaeda in Libya
Well, you have to hand it to Obama, he is consistent in his extreme anit-Americanism. Throughout his presdiency and all of the Islamic revolutions sweeping the Middle East and Africa, he has sided with the Islamic supremacists at every turn. His fierce islamophilia threatens free men the world over. Taking his marching orders from vile America hater, Jew hater devout Muslim Sheik Qaradawi, Obama paves the way for an Islamic state in Libya. not the it was good before, hardly. But there are degrees of evil. It can always be worse, but little matches the anti-human brutality of Islamic regimes in the twenty first century.
He backed the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.
He's backed the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, Judea and Samaria.
He backed the brutal mullahcracy in Iran during their bloody march for freedom.
He's backed Hezb'Allah in Lebanon.
He's backed Islamic law at the UN in co-sponsoring a resolution of the restriction of free speech.
And he is backing Al Qaeda in Libya.
| 58 |
AK-47% Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:22:45pm |
re: #55 Ojoe
In the mid 1930s the French Army was way stronger that the German army, if you trust Winston Churchill's analysis in "The Gathering Storm."
It was larger, but strength and size are not identical concepts...
| 59 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:22:51pm |
re: #48 Racer X
The French start shit, then we take over, then . . . Holy Crap! This is Vietnam Part 2!!!
/
| 60 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:22:58pm |
Oh fuck. Fuck. I knew it. I mean, in the comic way. I thought: "Now I will go to Pam's site and will see her backing Kaddafi". Joking, sort of.
But:
President Hussein Backs Al Qaeda in Libya
Well, you have to hand it to Obama, he is consistent in his extreme anit-Americanism. Throughout his presdiency and all of the Islamic revolutions sweeping the Middle East and Africa, he has sided with the Islamic supremacists at every turn. His fierce islamophilia threatens free men the world over. Taking his marching orders from vile America hater, Jew hater devout Muslim Sheik Qaradawi, Obama paves the way for an Islamic state in Libya. not the it was good before, hardly. But there are degrees of evil. It can always be worse, but little matches the anti-human brutality of Islamic regimes in the twenty first century.
He backed the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.
He's backed the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, Judea and Samaria.
He backed the brutal mullahcracy in Iran during their bloody march for freedom.
He's backed Hezb'Allah in Lebanon.
He's backed Islamic law at the UN in co-sponsoring a resolution of the restriction of free speech.
And he is backing Al Qaeda in Libya.
There's no amount of facepalm in this universe...
| 61 |
Summer Seale Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:22:59pm |
I can't remember the last time that the French shot at anything worthwhile...but I'm really glad that they're doing it again today.
| 63 |
Lidane Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:23:21pm |
re: #52 recusancy
All the CNN and MSNBC foreign correspondents are great.
Richard Engel over at MSNBC was spectacular during the events in Egypt. The guy spent a few years after college living in Cairo. He's fluent in Arabic and could interview people and translate on the fly if he had to. I follow his Twitter feed. The guy's cool.
| 64 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:23:26pm |
re: #57 Killgore Trout
Uh. Synchronicity.
| 65 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:23:57pm |
re: #60 Sergey Romanov
Oh fuck. Fuck. I knew it. I mean, in the comic way. I thought: "Now I will go to Pam's site and will see her backing Kaddafi". Joking, sort of.
But:
There's no amount of facepalm in this universe...
Like clockwork!
| 66 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:24:11pm |
re: #57 Killgore Trout
more...
"Only promoting sharia law." So they are OK with honor killing, killing of aposates, clitorectomies, woemn as property, amputations for stealing, stoning for "adultery." hangings for gays, Jewish genocide, ethnic cleasning ........No wrries :)
/Derp
| 67 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:24:39pm |
Because Kaddafi is not an Islamic Supremacist! Here merely runs a theocratic Islamist state.
| 68 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:24:44pm |
| 69 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:25:02pm |
re: #57 Killgore Trout
Well, you have to hand it to Obama, he is consistent in his extreme anit-Americanism. Throughout his presdiency and all of the Islamic revolutions sweeping the Middle East and Africa, he has sided with the Islamic supremacists at every turn. His fierce islamophilia threatens free men the world over. Taking his marching orders from vile America hater, Jew hater devout Muslim Sheik Qaradawi, Obama paves the way for an Islamic state in Libya. not the it was good before, hardly. But there are degrees of evil. It can always be worse, but little matches the anti-human brutality of Islamic regimes in the twenty first century.
He backed the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.
He's backed the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, Judea and Samaria.
He backed the brutal mullahcracy in Iran during their bloody march for freedom.
He's backed Hezb'Allah in Lebanon.
He's backed Islamic law at the UN in co-sponsoring a resolution of the restriction of free speech.
And he is backing Al Qaeda in Libya.
FTFY
| 70 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:25:29pm |
re: #52 recusancy
All the CNN and MSNBC foreign correspondents are great.
I could debate you on that one but I won't. There are a few I can't stand. Most talking heads make mine spin around and spit guacamole.
| 72 |
AK-47% Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:26:02pm |
re: #67 Sergey Romanov
Because Kaddafi is not an Islamic Supremacist! Here merely runs a theocratic Islamist state.
Whatever else you can say about Khadaffi, he is not a theocrat.
But Pamela is truly amazing. So we started this war to aid Al-Qaeda?
| 74 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:26:13pm |
re: #69 Gus 802
Ftfy.
WELL, U HAS 2 HAND IT 2 OBAMA, HE IZ CONSISTENT IN HIS EXTREME ANIT-AMERICANISM. THROUGHOUT HIS PRESDIENCY AN ALL OV TEH ISLAMIC REVOLUSHUNS SWEEPIN TEH MIDDLE EAST AN AFRICA, HE HAS SIDD WIF TEH ISLAMIC SUPREMACISTS AT EVRY TURN. HIS FIERCE ISLAMOFILIA THREATENS FREE DOODZ TEH WURLD OVAR. TAKIN HIS MARCHIN ORDERS FRUM VILE AMERICA HATR, JEW HATR DEVOUT MUSLIM SHEIK QARADAWI, OBAMA PAVEZ TEH WAI 4 AN ISLAMIC STATE IN LIBYA. NOT TEH IT WUZ GUD BEFORE, HARDLY. BUT THAR R DEGREEZ OV EVIL. IT CAN ALWAYS BE WORSE, BUT LIL MATCHEZ TEH ANTI-HOOMAN BRUTALITY OV ISLAMIC REGIMEZ IN DA TWENTY FURST SENTURY.
| 76 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:26:36pm |
re: #57 Killgore Trout
The Lizard Army sees a harpy. They hear the harpy shriek. Shriek, Harpy, Shriek.
| 77 |
Lidane Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:26:44pm |
re: #57 Killgore Trout
Crazy Pam sez...
President Hussein Backs Al Qaeda in Libya
Pam seriously needs to get laid. Or to have some weed. Or something to help her relax. She's far too high strung and stressed out. The fact that she sees a conspiracy in everything can't possibly be healthy.
/hippie librul
| 80 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:28:03pm |
| 81 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:28:51pm |
re: #72 ralphieboy
Whatever else you can say about Khadaffi, he is not a theocrat.
Lybia is an official Islamic state and they're serious about it. Theire courts are Sharia courts. Just because it's a different sort of Islamism it's Islamism nevertheless.
| 82 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:28:52pm |
re: #64 Sergey Romanov
Uh. Synchronicity.
Did you notice her post just before that one is claiming that Obama is pro-Q'Daffy? She can't decide what to be outraged about.
| 83 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:28:53pm |
re: #63 Lidane
Richard Engel over at MSNBC was spectacular during the events in Egypt. The guy spent a few years after college living in Cairo. He's fluent in Arabic and could interview people and translate on the fly if he had to. I follow his Twitter feed. The guy's cool.
You should also follow Ben Wedeman and Arwa Damon and Hala Gorani
| 84 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:28:57pm |
re: #73 jaunte
It's an anit-American presdiency!
I think that's a typo or a good Hebrew/English/birther pun.
| 85 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:29:01pm |
Funny...
@EricBoehlert Eric Boehlert
Hannity, O'Reilly and Beck huddling now to figure out ways for RW to condemn US military action vs. Muslim country. #trickyassignment
| 86 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:29:44pm |
re: #85 Gus 802
Funny...
@EricBoehlert Eric Boehlert
Hannity, O'Reilly and Beck huddling now to figure out ways for RW to condemn US military action vs. Muslim country. #trickyassignment
They'll do it, I have no doubt.
| 87 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:29:47pm |
re: #70 Dragon_Lady
I could debate you on that one but I won't. There are a few I can't stand. Most talking heads make mine spin around and spit guacamole.
Foreign correspondents not talking heads. Who do you not like?
| 88 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:29:51pm |
re: #82 Killgore Trout
Did you notice her post just before that one is claiming that Obama is pro-Q'Daffy? She can't decide what to be outraged about.
She needs to stay away from clear liquids.
//
| 89 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:31:00pm |
re: #85 Gus 802
Funny...
@EricBoehlert Eric Boehlert
Hannity, O'Reilly and Beck huddling now to figure out ways for RW to condemn US military action vs. Muslim country. #trickyassignment
Last I heard, the meme they're likely to go with is "We should have done this 3 weeks ago! Obama's not a strong leader because he didn't go in unilaterally!"
| 90 |
AK-47% Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:31:19pm |
re: #81 Sergey Romanov
Lybia is an official Islamic state and they're serious about it. Theire courts are Sharia courts. Just because it's a different sort of Islamism it's Islamism nevertheless.
As I understand, Khadafi was a secular militarist who simply panders to Islamism. It is also one of the few states in which women are allowed to vote and to serve in the military.
| 91 |
Lidane Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:31:23pm |
re: #88 Gus 802
She needs to stay away from clear liquids.
//
On the contrary. She needs more of them, mixed with Kahlua and milk. White Russians are awesome, man.
/The Dude
| 92 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:31:29pm |
re: #82 Killgore Trout
Did you notice her post just before that one is claiming that Obama is pro-Q'Daffy? She can't decide what to be outraged about.
Like the rest of the cult, she is outraged that Obama. And Democrats. And Muslims. And especially Obama.
| 93 |
Linden Arden Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:31:39pm |
I would love to see crazy Pam on Bill Maher's panel sometime - but would need a politically savvy comedian to ridicule her properly.
I'll go with David Cross. It would be brutal.
| 94 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:32:11pm |
re: #74 Varek Raith
Ftfy.
Ah, the return of the famed "Varek Raith LOLCat Translations". Truly, those are works of art.
| 95 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:32:25pm |
re: #90 ralphieboy
As I understand, Khadafi was a secular militarist who simply panders to Islamism.
Sort of. De facto though? An Islamist.
| 96 |
jaunte Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:32:33pm |
re: #82 Killgore Trout
Did you notice her post just before that one is claiming that Obama is pro-Q'Daffy? She can't decide what to be outraged about.
Hot Air also working both sides of the outrage:
1. This is Your World without Traditional US Leadership
2. Obama: Oh, by the way, we're going to war in Libya
| 97 |
AK-47% Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:33:16pm |
re: #95 Sergey Romanov
Sort of. De facto though? An Islamist.
From what I read, he was rather at odds with fundamentalist Islamists, hence the concessions. Not unlike Saddam in that respect.
| 98 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:33:18pm |
re: #90 ralphieboy
As I understand, Khadafi was a secular militarist who simply panders to Islamism. It is also one of the few states in which women are allowed to vote and to serve in the military.
I'm seeing shades of Saddam here.
| 99 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:33:30pm |
re: #86 Killgore Trout
They'll do it, I have no doubt.
Beck will, O'Reilly won't. I'm not sure what Hannity will do.
| 100 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:33:33pm |
re: #77 Lidane
I think she should go with the weed. Find a nice Jewish hippie guy and mellow out. On a farm far far away.
| 101 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:33:37pm |
re: #96 jaunte
Hot Air also working both sides of the outrage:
They stuck and it's funny. They still have "This is Your World without Traditional US Leadership" and only 42 comments.
| 102 |
Lidane Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:34:34pm |
re: #100 prairiefire
I think she should go with the weed. Find a nice Jewish hippie guy and mellow out. On a farm far far away.
Or go for the White Russians and the weed, with the Jewish hippie guy, the farm, and a comfy bathrobe to walk around in. Heh.
| 103 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:34:51pm |
re: #97 ralphieboy
From what I read, he was rather at odds with fundamentalist Islamists, hence the concessions. Not unlike Saddam in that respect.
The Amazon bodyguard doesn't seem very Islamic.
| 104 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:35:54pm |
re: #102 Lidane
Or go for the White Russians and the weed, with the Jewish hippie guy, the farm, and a comfy bathrobe to walk around in. Heh.
She would feel sooo much better. A comfy bathrobe and also clogs to wear in the fields, harvesting her pot. She should listen to us.
| 105 |
Lidane Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:36:39pm |
re: #104 prairiefire
She would feel sooo much better. A comfy bathrobe and also clogs to wear in the fields, harvesting her pot. She should listen to us.
Totally. Liberals might not have the single-minded discipline of the GOP, but we've got relaxation down to an art form. Haha.
| 106 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:37:32pm |
re: #87 recusancy
Foreign correspondents not talking heads. Who do you not like?
Hate to say this but I tend to turn them all off. Just because I can't tell the difference between them. All I hear is talk talk talk, yak yak yak. And the "foreign correspondents" as you call them seem the same to me as the talking heads. Yak yak yak, all talk, no common sense. Ask RWC, he'll tell you I have absolutely no patience for any of them, with the exception being Ms. Amanpour. A weakness of mine but there it is.
| 107 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:37:47pm |
re: #82 Killgore Trout
Did you notice her post just before that one is claiming that Obama is pro-Q'Daffy? She can't decide what to be outraged about.
Yep. The wingnuts are completely befuddled on what talking point to follow.
Lol.
| 108 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:39:36pm |
re: #99 Dark_Falcon
Beck will, O'Reilly won't. I'm not sure what Hannity will do.
O'Reilly can be completely sane one moment then wingnutty the next.
He confuses me.
| 109 |
Lidane Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:39:43pm |
re: #107 Varek Raith
Yep. The wingnuts are completely befuddled on what talking point to follow.
Lol.
"Obama refuses to attack Libya! He's siding with the terrorists!"
"ZOMG! Obama is siding with the terrorists by attacking Libya!"
For once, you'd think they were Democrats, given the talking point confusion. Hehe.
| 110 |
AK-47% Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:40:11pm |
re: #103 Decatur Deb
The Amazon bodyguard doesn't seem very Islamic.
This is from the "world almanac of islamism" site:
"Qadhafi, who came to power via military coup d’etat in 1969, possesses a secular militant radical ideology which justifies the use of violence and terrorism in order to promote Libyan interests and Qadhafi’s personal ideology. ...
With the emergence of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) in the late 1980s, Qadhafi faced his biggest radical Islamist threat. With a large amount of public support, the LIFG has plotted, albeit unsuccessfully, to overthrow the authoritarian regime in Tripoli. Recent reconciliation efforts between the LIFG and the regime created a tentative truce, although the real future of radical Islam in Libya remains uncertain."
And the future of radical Islam in Libya still remains uncertain...
| 111 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:40:47pm |
Mitga Air Base
32.9,13.283333
Zoom out. It's part of the airport in Tripoli.
| 112 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:40:55pm |
re: #108 Varek Raith
O'Reilly can be completely sane one moment then wingnutty the next.
He confuses me.
O'Really confuses O'Really.
Frequently.
| 113 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:41:21pm |
re: #112 b_sharp
O'Really confuses O'Really.
Frequently.
Truly something that can not be explained.
;)
| 114 |
AK-47% Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:41:38pm |
re: #107 Varek Raith
Yep. The wingnuts are completely befuddled on what talking point to follow.
Lol.
Talking point: BASH OBAMA. The details are irrelevant. We are looking at a Higher Truth here.
| 115 |
Lidane Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:42:07pm |
re: #113 Varek Raith
Truly something that can not be explained.
;)
Ignorance goes in, Bullshit comes out. You can't explain that!
| 116 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:42:08pm |
re: #107 Varek Raith
Yep. The wingnuts are completely befuddled on what talking point to follow.
Lol.
It often takes them a day or two to get their talking points straight when Obama suddenly changes course on them. They've been bitching for weeks that Obama's not a "leader" because a "real leader" would have set up the no-fly zone already and be helping the rebels onward to freedom. Now that the no-fly zone is going up and airstrikes have begun, they're trying to figure out how to make it seem like a bad thing. My guess is they'll go with "He waited too long!," claiming that only by intervening 3 weeks ago could the rebels have been successful.
And if Gadhafi falls? They'll probably then get on his case about badmouthing Bush in the past for the same actions, even if he did them for entirely different reasons.
| 117 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:42:11pm |
re: #111 Gus 802
Mitga Air Base
32.9,13.283333Zoom out. It's part of the airport in Tripoli.
Needs moar craters.
| 118 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:42:33pm |
re: #114 ralphieboy
Talking point: BASH OBAMA. The details are irrelevant. We are looking at a Higher Truth here.
It's in the Bible.
| 119 |
Velvet Elvis Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:42:48pm |
Commenters at Daily Kos are all pissed off about this. It's all for the oil. There's nothing humanitarian about it, it's just feeding the military industrial complex, etc. That place has swung so far left over the past couple years it's absurd.
| 120 |
ProGunLiberal Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:43:12pm |
re: #81 Sergey Romanov
Gaddafi has a serious cult of personality, right?
I'm very happy right now. The Motley Crew is acting. Now, for Gaddafi to fall.
| 122 |
Lidane Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:43:43pm |
re: #118 b_sharp
It's in the Bible.
Which totally doesn't count as foreign law, and it's not from the Middle East. It's clearly written in English, don'tcha know.
| 123 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:43:56pm |
re: #119 Conservative Moonbat
Commenters at Daily Kos are all pissed off about this. It's all for the oil. There's nothing humanitarian about it, it's just feeding the military industrial complex, etc. That place has swung so far left over the past couple years it's absurd.
Can't say they're totally off the mark. We got Bahrain killing protesters using live ammo and blowing up monuments, and the most we've issued is a strongly-worded rebuke. No talk about military intervention there.
| 124 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:44:06pm |
| 126 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:44:24pm |
re: #111 Gus 802
Mitga Air Base
32.9,13.283333Zoom out. It's part of the airport in Tripoli.
Is that in the Human Shield Neighborhood?
| 127 |
AK-47% Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:44:48pm |
re: #122 Lidane
Which totally doesn't count as foreign law, and it's not from the Middle East. It's clearly written in English, don'tcha know.
There are Christian Dominionists who insist that the King James translation was dictated directly by God, yes...
| 128 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:44:58pm |
re: #126 wrenchwench
Is that in the Human Shield Neighborhood?
Don't know. But it does adjoin residential areas.
| 129 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:45:08pm |
re: #111 Gus 802
Mitga Air Base
32.9,13.283333Zoom out. It's part of the airport in Tripoli.
Hey, DF?
Are those MiG 21s and 25s?
| 130 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:45:29pm |
re: #107 Varek Raith
Yep. The wingnuts are completely befuddled on what talking point to follow.
Lol.
Give it time. It took most of a week for the cult media to settle on how Obama was failing in Japan. A decade ago, when Rush was the lone major demagogue that determined the talking points for the cult echo chamber, you just had to wait for the next show to know how to express your hatred for liberals. Now there's a lot of different voices starting echoes, from blogs to FOX and other hosts. It takes a little time for the talking points to be fully formed - fortunately, in the meantime, everyone still knows what emotions to feel.
| 131 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:46:30pm |
re: #128 Gus 802
Don't know. But it does adjoin residential areas.
Yeah, that's what I meant. I guess some of our bases aren't too far from residences, but is does make for tricky targeting if collateral damage is to be avoided.
| 132 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:46:31pm |
re: #129 Varek Raith
Hey, DF?
Are those MiG 21s and 25s?
Looks like 25s. 21s have a delta like wing.
| 133 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:46:53pm |
re: #111 Gus 802
Mitga Air Base
32.9,13.283333Zoom out. It's part of the airport in Tripoli.
Those look like MiG-29s. I hope they take off. We've got French, US, Spanish and Canadian pilots who need some dogfight time and kill markers.
| 134 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:47:33pm |
| 135 |
Obdicut Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:47:42pm |
re: #133 Dark_Falcon
There's a non-zero chance of our pilots dying in such an engagement, Dark. Be careful what you wish for.
| 136 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:47:55pm |
| 137 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:47:56pm |
re: #119 Conservative Moonbat
Commenters at Daily Kos are all pissed off about this. It's all for the oil. There's nothing humanitarian about it, it's just feeding the military industrial complex, etc. That place has swung so far left over the past couple years it's absurd.
Really??? These are recommended diaries: [Link: www.dailykos.com...]
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]
They seem pretty even handed and sober to me. Remember, there are a few hundred thousand commenters there. You're going to find a range of opinions.
| 138 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:48:00pm |
re: #133 Dark_Falcon
Those look like MiG-29s. I hope they take off. We've got French, US, Spanish and Canadian pilots who need some dogfight time and kill markers.
I don't think Libya is a 29 operator. I'm pretty sure they're 25s.
| 139 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:48:53pm |
re: #123 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Can't say they're totally off the mark. We got Bahrain killing protesters using live ammo and blowing up monuments, and the most we've issued is a strongly-worded rebuke. No talk about military intervention there.
I think that would be getting too confrontational with Saudi Arabia, at this point.
| 140 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:49:10pm |
re: #121 Gus 802
Reagan wouldn't have done it this way.
Yes, he would have. That's the fun part. If France and Spain had been willing to help in 1986, Reagan would have gladly worked with them. The wingnut version of Ronald Wilson Reagan bears little resemblance to the real thing.
| 142 |
Interesting Times Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:50:18pm |
re: #106 Dragon_Lady
Ask RWC, he'll tell you I have absolutely no patience for any of them, with the exception being Ms. Amanpour. A weakness of mine but there it is.
It's the accent - automatically makes everything she says sound smarter and more authoritative :)
I daresay she could make Palin's tweets seem sensible if she read them out loud...
| 143 |
webevintage Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:50:29pm |
re: #52 recusancy
All the CNN and MSNBC foreign correspondents are great.
But not the talking heads.
Just a few min ago the Conservative Pundit Lady (who drives me crazy) infered Obama is still a pussy because this is what France and the UK wanted and Obama had to be "brought kicking and screaming" to agree and that Q'Daffy knows it so he will just wait us out because he knows the President has such small balls.
| 144 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:50:48pm |
We will get to watch the war footage on a new TV as my hubby just went out the door to go to Best Buy.
| 145 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:51:01pm |
| 146 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:51:17pm |
re: #134 Decatur Deb
Yup, that's how you do it alright! Go boys, go! Swiss cheese that runway!
| 148 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:53:11pm |
re: #138 Gus 802
I don't think Libya is a 29 operator. I'm pretty sure they're 25s.
You're right. But those did look like 29s to me. MiG-25s are fast, but they're old and NATO knows them right down to the nuts and bolts. The F/A-18 Hornet and Rafale should eat MiGs for lunch.
| 149 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:53:22pm |
re: #138 Gus 802
I don't think Libya is a 29 operator. I'm pretty sure they're 25s.
You are correct.
I sure as hell wouldn't won't them to have 29s.
| 150 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:54:15pm |
re: #97 ralphieboy
From what I read, he was rather at odds with fundamentalist Islamists, hence the concessions. Not unlike Saddam in that respect.
[Link: memory.loc.gov...]
Under the revolutionary government, the role of orthodox Islam in Libyan life has become progressively more important. Qadhafi is a highly devout Muslim who has repeatedly expressed a desire to exalt Islam and to restore it to its proper--i.e., central--place in the life of the people. He believes that the purity of Islam has been sullied through time, particularly by the influence of Europeans during and after the colonial period, and that its purity must be restored--by such actions as the restoration of sharia to its proper place as the basis of the Libyan legal system, the banning of "immodest" practices and dress, and the symbolic purification of major urban mosques that took place in 1978.
The "buts" follow, but they're "buts" of flavor, not of essence.
| 151 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:54:31pm |
re: #149 Varek Raith
You are correct.
I sure as hell wouldn't won't them to have 29s.
Lol, grammar mess!
| 152 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:54:52pm |
re: #147 Gus 802
Yeah. The Mig-25 is kind of a Hunchback.
And its much more angular than the MiG-29. Now that I did a refresher look at the photos, its clear those are MiG-25s.
| 153 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:54:54pm |
re: #149 Varek Raith
You are correct.
I sure as hell wouldn't want them to have 29s.
| 156 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:55:18pm |
Hey, CNN has new images of the actual airstrikes on Libya!
| 157 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:55:31pm |
| 158 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:56:24pm |
| 159 |
Jeff In Ohio Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:56:26pm |
re: #139 prairiefire
I think that would be getting too confrontational with Saudi Arabia, at this point.
Because they have...oil.
Libya is the main supplier of Europe for sweet crude needed for diesel.
So yeah, oil. No ones huffing and puffing about Liberia.
| 160 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:57:01pm |
re: #157 prairiefire
re: #148 Dark_Falcon
Men getting their war on. How many strikes do you think the French will make? Is what they are doing strafing all Libyan planes and runways?
Or blasting them in their hangars with cruise missiles later.
I'm certain they won't take off, as that would be suicide. Their planes are seriously dated and in questionable flying condition.
| 161 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:57:21pm |
US, UK firing, too. Hell ya:[Link: www.cnn.com...]
| 162 |
thecommodore Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:57:34pm |
re: #3 Sergey Romanov
Ground troops or not, the US will be blamed for any bad outcome, unfortunately.
And the right will blame Obama no matter what happens. If this operation is successful, they will still call it a debacle.
| 164 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:58:41pm |
re: #163 prairiefire
Also, pilots have defected.
That too. If any do take off some may just bug off out of there.
| 165 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 2:58:41pm |
re: #119 Conservative Moonbat
Commenters at Daily Kos are all pissed off about this. It's all for the oil. There's nothing humanitarian about it, it's just feeding the military industrial complex, etc. That place has swung so far left over the past couple years it's absurd.
Bullshit. As I wrote earlier, some of the commenters go right there. But they're outnumbered by sane folks.
| 167 |
Zendette Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:00:18pm |
re: #90 ralphieboy
Well, yes, he needs his lovely female bodyguards. Not veiled, are they?
| 168 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:00:24pm |
| 169 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:00:35pm |
[5:45 p.m. ET, 12:45 a.m. in Libya] Moammar Gadhafi is due to make an address soon, according to media reports citing Libyan TV.
He no doubt smoked some seriously bad granola before...
| 170 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:01:17pm |
re: #164 Varek Raith
That too. If any do take off some may just bug off out of there.
The purpose of the whole exercise is to make their commanders review their risk-management matrices and their retirement plans.
| 171 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:01:51pm |
re: #170 Decatur Deb
The purpose of the whole exercise is to make their commanders review their risk-management matrices and their retirement plans.
Put the planes on Ebay, make some profit, retire to nice island.
| 172 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:03:07pm |
Here's a DK diary on the rec list:
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]
Whatever you think of his points, he is clear:
As supporters of freedom from tyranny for everyone I am sure that we are all in support of the Libyan rebels.[and later]
The U.S. and its allies are doing what apparently must be done but it is to be done “with a calm, still mind, without enjoyment.” People are dying.
Yeah, there will be some equivocations, some even justified. But not everybody and not the majority goes for the robotic "oil" routine there.
| 173 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:04:07pm |
re: #135 Obdicut
There's a non-zero chance of our pilots dying in such an engagement, Dark. Be careful what you wish for.
hahaha!...did you really post this?
LOL
| 174 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:04:25pm |
re: #132 Gus 802
Looks like 25s. 21s have a delta like wing.
I think they're likely Mig 23's. According to Wiki, he has Mig 19, 21 and 23s.
| 175 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:04:32pm |
re: #172 Sergey Romanov
Here's a DK diary on the rec list:
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]
Whatever you think of his points, he is clear:
Yeah, there will be some equivocations, some even justified. But not everybody and not the majority goes for the robotic "oil" routine there.
Agreed. Their live blogs are very good and thorough.
| 176 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:04:50pm |
re: #169 Varek Raith
[5:45 p.m. ET, 12:45 a.m. in Libya] Moammar Gadhafi is due to make an address soon, according to media reports citing Libyan TV.
He no doubt smoked some seriously bad granola before...
Prediction: "Join with my, my countrymen, and help me repel the invaders!," or something along those lines. By this point, I don't think Mo's even on speaking terms with reality.
| 177 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:05:26pm |
re: #174 b_sharp
I think they're likely Mig 23's. According to Wiki, he has Mig 19, 21 and 23s.
Can't be. Profile doesn't match.
| 178 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:06:27pm |
Press TV couldn't resist...
Jets pound civilian targets in Tripoli
| 179 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:06:33pm |
Now a rebel flown MiG 23 was downed due to friendly fire from the rebels today.
| 180 |
Obdicut Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:07:30pm |
| 181 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:07:39pm |
re: #174 b_sharp
I think they're likely Mig 23's. According to Wiki, he has Mig 19, 21 and 23s.
LOL, might as well be flying a Spad
he's doomed
| 182 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:07:51pm |
re: #174 b_sharp
I think they're likely Mig 23's. According to Wiki, he has Mig 19, 21 and 23s.
Then Wiki's working with old info, because Global Security says they have 94 MiG-25s.
| 183 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:08:08pm |
From another thread, from the first comments (only headlines):
Vive la France! nm by verasoie, Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 02:41:53 PM EDT (41+ / 0-)
Magnific! Bravo! by Lefty Coaster, Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 02:45:02 PM EDT (17+ / 0-)
& w/ Q too by timewarp, Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 05:06:51 PM EDT (3+ / 0-)
Indeed. by kestrel9000, Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 03:08:17 PM EDT (17+ / 0-)
Look out, "Moo-Mar," by Liberal Panzer, Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 04:13:33 PM EDT (0+ / 0-)
Can Freedom fries go back to being French fries? by Ana Thema, Sat Mar 19, 2011 at 05:19:34 PM EDT (3+ / 0-)
| 184 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:08:57pm |
re: #180 Obdicut
What's funny, Steve?
The 101st Chairborne, Keyboard Division is disagreeing with your assessments.
| 185 |
Linden Arden Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:09:15pm |
Did the US supply ground troops in Bosnia?
I don't remember (nor do I remember much about politics in the 90's - for good reason).
TIA.
| 186 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:10:03pm |
re: #133 Dark_Falcon
Better they get hit on the ground. Some of those pilots are far from loyal.
| 187 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:10:09pm |
| 188 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:11:02pm |
re: #173 albusteve
hahaha!...did you really post this?
LOL
In context, DF thought they were MiG 29s. Obdicut was pointing out that the MiG 29 is a far more formidible foe than the MiG 21,23 and 25.
Thankfully, he doesn't have 29s.
| 189 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:11:13pm |
re: #174 b_sharp
I think they're likely Mig 23's. According to Wiki, he has Mig 19, 21 and 23s.
Sorry, I screwed up. They have 17, 19, and 25s.
I am getting too old for this shit.
| 190 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:11:37pm |
#
2208: Al-Jazeera has said that Libyan authorities have detained a team of its journalists in western Libya, the AP news agency reports. The four correspondents are said to be British, Tunisian, Mauritanian andrNorwegian.r
| 191 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:11:57pm |
re: #169 Varek Raith
[5:45 p.m. ET, 12:45 a.m. in Libya] Moammar Gadhafi is due to make an address soon, according to media reports citing Libyan TV.
He no doubt smoked some seriously bad granola before...
Nah. I hear he just ate some brown acid.
| 192 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:11:58pm |
re: #188 Varek Raith
In context, DF thought they were MiG 29s. Obdicut was pointing out that the MiG 29 is a far more formidible foe than the MiG 21,23 and 25.
Thankfully, he doesn't have 29s.
well duh!...I know what was being pointed out
LOL!
| 193 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:12:07pm |
re: #177 Gus 802
Can't be. Profile doesn't match.
I screwed up, K?
Sheesh. I can only fit so much in my pea-brain.
| 195 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:12:50pm |
re: #192 albusteve
well duh!...I know what was being pointed out
LOL!
You're awfully cheery today.
:)
| 197 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:13:28pm |
re: #87 recusancy
Foreign correspondents not talking heads. Who do you not like?
Ok, you wanted to know which of the CNN reporters drives me nuts? This one! Wolfe Blitzer!!! God that mans a real whack job! He just said this is Pres. Obamas war! Grrr! what's wrong with that man? What part of France is taking the lead on this action does he not get???
| 198 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:13:37pm |
Here is the latest from The Wall Street Journal. [Link: online.wsj.com...]
| 199 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:13:42pm |
re: #194 Gus 802
Yeah. Detain journalist Gaddafi. That should work
What a dildo.
and it's typical....problem is he no longer controls the message and never really did....he fucked up from the very beginning and now he's pissy about it
| 200 |
Velvet Elvis Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:14:07pm |
re: #172 Sergey Romanov
Here's a DK diary on the rec list:
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]
Whatever you think of his points, he is clear:
Yeah, there will be some equivocations, some even justified. But not everybody and not the majority goes for the robotic "oil" routine there.
I was just looking at some of the comments on one of the front page stories. My frustration with the site mainly grows the unquestionable far-left swing the site membership has taken over the past couple years, particularly since Obama has been elected. As a centrist democrat I often find myself at odds with a vast number of posters there.
| 201 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:14:09pm |
U.S. Action in Libya
| 202 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:14:27pm |
re: #195 Varek Raith
You're awfully cheery today.
:)
my usual jolly self....reading the absurd as well as the informative
| 203 |
Obdicut Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:15:03pm |
re: #188 Varek Raith
I'm more pointing out that flying planes over a hostile country where they have SAMs is dangerous, as is flying at the same time as two other nations.
| 204 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:15:20pm |
Hell, even a MiG-29 is not that much of a threat in the hands of piss-poor pilots and poorly maintained. Russians don't tend to sell off the really good shit, they build versions of the same bird specifically for export, removing the cutting-edge gear and substituting lower-grade gear in its place. And didn't somebody point out yesterday that the average Libyan pilot gets only 90 flight hours a year?
| 205 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:15:29pm |
re: #202 albusteve
my usual jolly self...reading the absurd as well as the informative
I try to do both.
Am I succeeding?
| 206 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:15:44pm |
re: #197 Dragon_Lady
Ok, you wanted to know which of the CNN reporters drives me nuts? This one! Wolfe Blitzer!!! God that mans a real whack job! He just said this is Pres. Obamas war! Grrr! what's wrong with that man? What part of France is taking the lead on this action does he not get???
He's not a correspondent. I'm talking about the reporters on the ground. He's just a news host.
| 207 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:15:58pm |
re: #188 Varek Raith
In the hands of a Libyan pilot? Not quite so formidable as in the hands of a Russian pilot.
"It's not the man, it's the crate"
Baron Von Richthofen the Red Baron, and early genius of air to air combat.
| 208 |
Linden Arden Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:16:10pm |
re: #200 Conservative Moonbat
I have 5000 posts there 2006-10 and now am just about done.
| 209 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:16:26pm |
re: #207 Rightwingconspirator
Oh pimf
It's not the crate, it's the man. sheesh.
| 211 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:16:34pm |
re: #201 Killgore Trout
U.S. Action in Libya
[Video]
If the footage is real it's kind of interesting. Camera man in place with night vision. You can hear some radio chatter in the background. A spotter perhaps.
heh, we OWN the night
| 212 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:16:49pm |
re: #200 Conservative Moonbat
I was just looking at some of the comments on one of the front page stories. My frustration with the site mainly grows the unquestionable far-left swing the site membership has taken over the past couple years, particularly since Obama has been elected. As a centrist democrat I often find myself at odds with a vast number of posters there.
I'm having a hard time finding any of these comments you are talking about. You do realize there are hundreds of thousands of commenters there right?
| 213 |
Obdicut Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:17:23pm |
re: #204 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yaeger proved that the pilot matters a hell of a lot more than the machine; I'm certain our pilots are trained as well as a fighter pilot can be.
My brother's brother-in-law is a fighter pilot with the US Navy. He's the cream of the crop, since he was in the Blue Angels, but from what he says, we have a very, very, very highly skilled pilot corp.
| 214 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:18:17pm |
re: #207 Rightwingconspirator
In the hands of a Libyan pilot? Not quite so formidable as in the hands of a Russian pilot.
"It's not the man, it's the crate"
Baron Von Richthofen the Red Baron, and early genius of air to air combat.
True. I was just comparing the planes on a technical basis.
| 215 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:19:04pm |
110319-N-XO436-138 MEDITERRANEAN SEA (March. 19, 2011) The Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Barry (DDG 52) launches a Tomahawk missile in support of Operation Odyssey Dawn on March 19, 2011. This was one of approximately 110 cruise missiles fired from U.S. and British ships and submarines that targeted about 20 radar and anti-aircraft sites along Libya's Mediterranean coast. Joint Task Force Odyssey Dawn is the U.S. Africa Command task force established to provide operational and tactical command and control of U.S. military forces supporting the international response to the unrest in Libya and enforcement of United Nations Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1973. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Jonathan Sunderman/Released)
| 216 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:19:22pm |
re: #206 recusancy
He's not a correspondent. I'm talking about the reporters on the ground. He's just a news host.
See what I mean? Told you I usually tune them ALL out! Host, shmost! He's talking on the boob-tube, babbling on like the idiot he is and making CNN look bad with his b.s. God save me from hosts, talking heads, reporters and the like! Bah!
| 217 |
Simply Sarah Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:19:37pm |
Honestly, I'd be more worried about surface defenses than I would about any aircraft they may have. Assuming they can actually reach high enough to hit the western jets, there's always the very, very slight chance of them getting off a random lucky shot.
| 218 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:19:55pm |
re: #207 Rightwingconspirator
In the hands of a Libyan pilot? Not quite so formidable as in the hands of a Russian pilot.
"It's not the man, it's the crate"
Baron Von Richthofen the Red Baron, and early genius of air to air combat.
Yep. During the early years of Korea, much of the fighting done by MiG-15s was with Soviet WWII veterans behind the controls, aka "honchos." But as the war continued, the Soviets got nervous that one of their pilots might be caught alive or found dead in the wreckage, and so turned over piloting duties to the North Koreans. The sudden drop in proficiency was immediately noticeable.
| 219 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:19:56pm |
re: #207 Rightwingconspirator
In the hands of a Libyan pilot? Not quite so formidable as in the hands of a Russian pilot.
"It's not the man, it's the crate"
Baron Von Richthofen the Red Baron, and early genius of air to air combat.
the 29 is an extremely formidable dog fighter...way ahead of it's time, and lightening fast...a good pilot can make one of those things dance on the air like no other plane except a Raptor
| 220 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:20:01pm |
I am sick and tired of Wolf Blitzer calling this Obamas war. Second or third time.
Chicken Noodle News
| 221 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:20:33pm |
re: #211 albusteve
heh, we OWN the night
I wonder if those are our choppers i hear or theirs. It's also kinda strange the spotter has his radio up that loud. I thought those guys had to maintain ninja like silence.
| 222 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:20:55pm |
re: #200 Conservative Moonbat
I was just looking at some of the comments on one of the front page stories. My frustration with the site mainly grows the unquestionable far-left swing the site membership has taken over the past couple years, particularly since Obama has been elected. As a centrist democrat I often find myself at odds with a vast number of posters there.
True, the front page is often the most sane there (and it's almost always sane there). But on this issue, while there are some critters flinging the usual far-left poo, most folks' hearts are in the right place from what I've seen (you also gotta look at the karma the comments gather. For example:
" I think next week I will check the view (11+ / 0-)
of the 'street' in Paris."
v.
"it may have something to do with (1+ / 0-)
the fact that France gets much of its oil from Libya--and the US doesn't."
Or:
"We are now in 3 wars (9+ / 0-)
Iraq-Afghanistan-Libya.
For anyone who would like to think that any of these wars are happening for "humanitarian" reasons, they are entitled to do so. But if someone checks the facts, reality points to a different direction. And in the case of Libya it has the same name with the one in the case of Iraq. It is called oil."
vs. a reply:
"Now why is it oil exactly? (16+ / 0-)
Every major western oil company already was receiving the oil from Libya. Now I could see that maybe we would try and get the rebels to lend us a favor when they win with our help, and maybe get some better contracts from the corporations' perspectives, but that seems a little tenuous to me. I've seen so many people post comments like this with no real explanation. Yes they have oil. Yes we love oil. But that means we can't possibly be doing this for humanitarian reasons?"
| 223 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:20:58pm |
re: #220 Rightwingconspirator
Don't give Chicken and Noodles a bad name.
| 224 |
Linden Arden Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:21:25pm |
re: #220 Rightwingconspirator
I am sick and tired of Wolf Blitzer calling this Obamas war. Second or third time.
Chicken Noodle News
Wolf made a fool of himself on Celebrity Jeopardy. They even dumb down the questions for them.
| 225 |
Simply Sarah Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:21:29pm |
re: #220 Rightwingconspirator
I am sick and tired of Wolf Blitzer calling this Obamas war. Second or third time.
Chicken Noodle News
Blitzer is still trying to live off his work in the first Gulf war.
| 226 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:22:24pm |
Note to Libyan pilots-Fly today you may well die today. Stay home. Libya will need you after Qaddafi & his sons are gone.
| 227 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:22:43pm |
re: #213 Obdicut
Yaeger proved that the pilot matters a hell of a lot more than the machine; I'm certain our pilots are trained as well as a fighter pilot can be.
My brother's brother-in-law is a fighter pilot with the US Navy. He's the cream of the crop, since he was in the Blue Angels, but from what he says, we have a very, very, very highly skilled pilot corp.
they say Yaeger could see aircraft 100 miles away....he had eyes like an Apache and motor skills off the scales, a terrific gunner....and so young, but his wing always deferred to his judgment
| 228 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:23:27pm |
| 229 |
Obdicut Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:23:56pm |
re: #227 albusteve
He also cared about the engineering of the plane in a way that few other pilots did. That enabled him to survive situations nobody else could have. His autobiography is terrific.
[Link: www.amazon.com...]
| 230 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:24:37pm |
re: #221 Killgore Trout
I wonder if those are our choppers i hear or theirs. It's also kinda strange the spotter has his radio up that loud. I thought those guys had to maintain ninja like silence.
I'd bet those are not US spotters
| 231 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:24:55pm |
re: #228 Dragon_Lady
Thanks. Once in a while I have a really good one.
| 234 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:26:13pm |
re: #220 Rightwingconspirator
I am sick and tired of Wolf Blitzer calling this Obamas war. Second or third time.
Chicken Noodle News
I never liked Blitzer. He seems like a faker.
| 235 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:27:17pm |
| 236 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:27:51pm |
| 238 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:27:59pm |
For fun: Kaddafi's site: [Link: www.algathafi.org...]
| 239 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:28:03pm |
re: #229 Obdicut
He also cared about the engineering of the plane in a way that few other pilots did. That enabled him to survive situations nobody else could have. His autobiography is terrific.
[Link: www.amazon.com...]
agreed, read it...only because my dad's brother was a combat pilot in WW11 and then a teacher and finally a test pilot for many years....he met Yeager several times and worshipped the guy, and my uncle got three kills over France and won the DFC in Korea...Yeager was very special, one in a million
| 240 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:28:06pm |
| 241 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:29:06pm |
| 242 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:29:20pm |
I had heard the Navy de-emphasized ACM or dogfighting in favor of Over The Horizon tactics and ground strike practice. Man on man ACM is said (by a critic I know) to be very little of the training.
Anyone know if this is true or just BS grumbling?
| 243 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:29:22pm |
re: #234 Gus 802
I never liked Blitzer. He seems like a faker.
The man drives me nuts, RWC gets mad at me for yelling at him on the tv when he's babbling his bullshit. Talk about a wacko! Man, why doesn't CNN get rid of him? I'd throw a party!
| 244 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:30:31pm |
re: #241 albusteve
who would call themselves Wolf?...that says it all
Uh, hate to say this but it's his given name. Really, not a nickname or anything.
| 245 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:31:31pm |
re: #234 Gus 802
I never liked Blitzer. He seems like a faker.
He's hilariously square and dull, that's for sure
| 246 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:31:40pm |
Aisha Gaddafi, daughter of Libya's leader Muammar Gaddafi, holds a Libyan flag as she greets supporters at Bab Al-Aziziyah in Tripoli March 19, 2011. Thousands of Libyans packed into Muammar Gaddafi's heavily fortified Tripoli compound on Saturday to form a human shield against possible air strikes by allied forces.
| 247 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:32:39pm |
re: #242 Rightwingconspirator
I had heard the Navy de-emphasized ACM or dogfighting in favor of Over The Horizon tactics and ground strike practice. Man on man ACM is said (by a critic I know) to be very little of the training.
Anyone know if this is true or just BS grumbling?
why fight toe to toe if you don't have to? especially considering the raking speeds etc these days...I don't think an F18 even has a gun....ideally dog fighting is an electronic thing now days, remembering the F14...but if needed, it's a done deal
| 248 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:32:40pm |
re: #229 Obdicut
did you ever play Advanced Flight Trainer? :D
| 249 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:32:52pm |
Wow, I am so proud. The Canadian government is sending 6 CF-18s to help against Ghaddafi. Did you hear that? Six, 6, one half dozen.
Out of 120 functional CF-18As and Bs, we send 6.
| 250 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:33:06pm |
re: #247 albusteve
why fight toe to toe if you don't have to? especially considering the raking speeds etc these days...I don't think an F18 even has a gun...ideally dog fighting is an electronic thing now days, remembering the F14...but if needed, it's a done deal
F-18 has a gun.
| 251 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:33:36pm |
re: #244 Dragon_Lady
Uh, hate to say this but it's his given name. Really, not a nickname or anything.
he calls himself Wolf, not Bob or Jerry....my point stands
| 252 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:33:45pm |
Supporters of Libya's leader Muammar Gaddafi gather in his heavily fortified Tripoli compound in this still image taken from video March 19, 2011. Thousands of Libyans packed into the compound on Saturday to form a human shield against possible air strikes by allied forces.
| 253 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:34:15pm |
re: #251 albusteve
he calls himself Wolf, not Bob or Jerry...my point stands
I always called him Blitz Wolfer
| 254 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:34:21pm |
| 255 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:35:14pm |
re: #251 albusteve
he calls himself Wolf, not Bob or Jerry...my point stands
Point to you my friend. Upding too!
| 256 |
Obdicut Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:35:25pm |
re: #248 WindUpBird
No, the boredom of flight sims crushes me within a few minutes of starting them. I'd be more interested in an in-flight sim where you play a passenger attempting to stave off boredom.
| 257 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:36:01pm |
| 258 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:36:22pm |
re: #249 b_sharp
Wow, I am so proud. The Canadian government is sending 6 CF-18s to help against Ghaddafi. Did you hear that? Six, 6, one half dozen.
Out of 120 functional CF-18As and Bs, we send 6.
more than enough, and my thanks for heading into the fray once more....you Canadians are about the very best neighbors a country could ever ask for.....every time the shit flies, you guys are there with some backup and that says a lot
| 259 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:36:48pm |
| 260 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:37:03pm |
re: #247 albusteve
There is real benefit to training for a fight like that. Of course you hope to not have to fight like that but history has proven depending on advanced weapons is far more dangerous than a more well rounded skill set. One now long retired pilot told me he learned a lot doing the "knife fight in a phone booth" thing with a squadron friend in another fighter.
| 261 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:37:15pm |
re: #250 Gus 802
F-18 has a gun.
after the Phantom debacle in Viet Nam, I suppose they all have guns again
| 262 |
RogueOne Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:37:25pm |
re: #2 Racer X
Now if we just put as much of our resources and energy over in Japan . . .
Why do you want to bomb japan? What'd they do, recently I mean.
| 263 |
Obdicut Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:37:39pm |
re: #258 albusteve
Except Vietnam. To their wisdom. Though a lot of Canadians came over here and signed up to fight.
| 264 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:38:16pm |
re: #261 albusteve
after the Phantom debacle in Viet Nam, I suppose they all have guns again
Yep. Won't make that mistake again. Although that was fixed with the F-4E. Gunpods didn't work for AA fire since they shook all over the place.
| 265 |
RogueOne Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:38:24pm |
I didn't realize cruise missiles counted as "technical support". Technically, they are supporting the effort but that seems a bit of a stretch.
| 266 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:38:31pm |
re: #256 Obdicut
No, the boredom of flight sims crushes me within a few minutes of starting them. I'd be more interested in an in-flight sim where you play a passenger attempting to stave off boredom.
Oh I know it, they get tedious after the novelty wears off, but the important thing about Chuck Yeager's Advanced Flight Trainer is Chuck Yeager berates you personally on your c64 when you fail
| 267 |
McSpiff Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:38:44pm |
re: #213 Obdicut
Yaeger proved that the pilot matters a hell of a lot more than the machine; I'm certain our pilots are trained as well as a fighter pilot can be.
My brother's brother-in-law is a fighter pilot with the US Navy. He's the cream of the crop, since he was in the Blue Angels, but from what he says, we have a very, very, very highly skilled pilot corp.
re: #215 Gus 802
110319-N-XO436-138 MEDITERRANEAN SEA (March. 19, 2011) The Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Barry (DDG 52) launches a Tomahawk missile in support of Operation Odyssey Dawn on March 19, 2011. This was one of approximately 110 cruise missiles fired from U.S. and British ships and submarines that targeted about 20 radar and anti-aircraft sites along Libya's Mediterranean coast. Joint Task Force Odyssey Dawn is the U.S. Africa Command task force established to provide operational and tactical command and control of U.S. military forces supporting the international response to the unrest in Libya and enforcement of United Nations Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1973. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Jonathan Sunderman/Released)
I was on the Barry this summer. Our tour guide was one of the missile officers. Beautiful women with an in-depth knowledge of missile systems. Absolutely had a crush on her. Funny how the world works. Hope she and everyone else over there stays safe.
| 268 |
Shiplord Kirel Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:38:48pm |
re: #132 Gus 802
Looks like 25s. 21s have a delta like wing.
They're definitely 25s. The big boxy intakes are an unmistakable feature.
Color 3 view
| 269 |
McSpiff Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:39:15pm |
re: #267 McSpiff
Whoops, didn't mean to quote Obi there. PIMF.
| 270 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:39:40pm |
re: #263 Obdicut
Except Vietnam. To their wisdom. Though a lot of Canadians came over here and signed up to fight.
good eye
| 271 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:39:40pm |
re: #268 Shiplord Kirel
They're definitely 25s. The big boxy intakes are an unmistakable feature.
Color 3 view
Yep, unmistakably fugly.
/
| 272 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:40:17pm |
re: #247 albusteve
why fight toe to toe if you don't have to? especially considering the raking speeds etc these days...I don't think an F18 even has a gun...ideally dog fighting is an electronic thing now days, remembering the F14...but if needed, it's a done deal
Every fighter has a gun, even the F-22 and F-35. Why? Because the art of dogfighting is neither dead nor in serious danger of becoming so. The Navy and Air Force learned to their displeasure during Vietnam that BVR missiles are far from reliable, and will only become more so as stealth makes its way to the battlefield and engagement ranges again shrink.
| 273 |
RogueOne Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:40:21pm |
re: #249 b_sharp
Wow, I am so proud. The Canadian government is sending 6 CF-18s to help against Ghaddafi. Did you hear that? Six, 6, one half dozen.
Out of 120 functional CF-18As and Bs, we send 6.
I read that the other day. At first I thought that must be the worlds smallest aircraft carrier but I assume they can base them somewhere in Italy.
| 274 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:40:42pm |
re: #256 Obdicut
No, the boredom of flight sims crushes me within a few minutes of starting them. I'd be more interested in an in-flight sim where you play a passenger attempting to stave off boredom.
there'd be something really awesome about a murder mystery game that took place on a jumbo jet in the air, very confined space and lots of character intrigue, Agatha Christie style
| 275 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:40:55pm |
re: #261 albusteve
I dunno if the re: #264 Gus 802
Yep. Won't make that mistake again. Although that was fixed with the F-4E. Gunpods didn't work for AA fire since they shook all over the place.
Wiki
The Raptor carries an M61A2 Vulcan 20 mm rotary cannon, also with a trap door, in the right wing root. The M61A2 is a last ditch weapon, and carries 480 rounds; enough ammunition for approximately five seconds of sustained fire. The opening for the cannon's firing barrel is covered by a door when not in use to maintain stealth.[142] The F-22 has been able to close to gun range in training dogfights without being detected, which can be necessary when missiles are depleted
| 276 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:41:21pm |
re: #264 Gus 802
Yep. Won't make that mistake again. Although that was fixed with the F-4E. Gunpods didn't work for AA fire since they shook all over the place.
That was only for the Air Force. Navy never fielded a Phantom equipped with guns and spent the rest of the war flying by the skin of their teeth.
| 277 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:42:17pm |
[Link: www.channelnewsasia.com...]
TRIPOLI: Libyan state television said a French warplane was shot down on Saturday in the Njela district of Tripoli, as the West launched air strikes against the forces of Libya's leader Muammar Gaddafi.
"Libyan air defences have shot down a French plane in the Njela neighbourhood of Tripoli," it said in the report, without giving further details.
The French military swiftly denied the report.
| 278 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:42:38pm |
re: #276 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
That was only for the Air Force. Navy never fielded a Phantom equipped with guns and spent the rest of the war flying by the skin of their teeth.
Correct. The savior for the Navy Phantoms was Top Gun school training and the Sidewinder missile.
| 279 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:42:56pm |
re: #273 RogueOne
I read that the other day. At first I thought that must be the worlds smallest aircraft carrier but I assume they can base them somewhere in Italy.
They're perched on the head of a pin-head named Harper.
| 280 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:43:35pm |
re: #277 Sergey Romanov
[Link: www.channelnewsasia.com...]
TRIPOLI: Libyan state television said a French warplane was shot down on Saturday in the Njela district of Tripoli, as the West launched air strikes against the forces of Libya's leader Muammar Gaddafi.
"Libyan air defences have shot down a French plane in the Njela neighbourhood of Tripoli," it said in the report, without giving further details.
The French military swiftly denied the report.
"There are no tanks in Baghdad!"
| 281 |
CuriousLurker Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:44:13pm |
OT drive-by - I don't really like Bill Maher, but when I saw this I had to LOL in spite of myself:
He rattled off a list of what he called the "useless distractions that make up the Republican Party agenda" - they included public unions, Sharia law, anchor babies, the "Ground Zero mosque," NPR, and the "war on Christmas," among others. So bad is this problem, Maher said, that trying to govern with Republicans "is like rooming with a meth addict" who, instead of rent, is worrying that police bugged the air conditioner.
| 282 |
McSpiff Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:44:32pm |
re: #249 b_sharp
Wow, I am so proud. The Canadian government is sending 6 CF-18s to help against Ghaddafi. Did you hear that? Six, 6, one half dozen.
Out of 120 functional CF-18As and Bs, we send 6.
Not sure where you're getting the 120 number from, but my understanding is that the number of air frames that can actually transit the Atlantic and conduct ops is quite a bit lower. When you account for ground crews, equipment, etc... if you're flying purely Canadian ops with those planes then yep, that's about the limit of our ability at the moment. I believe Kosovo saw a similar number of Canadian planes.
We also have at least one frigate, 2 C-130s and 2 C-17s in theater as well. Or we did a few weeks ago.
| 283 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:44:40pm |
re: #274 WindUpBird
there'd be something really awesome about a murder mystery game that took place on a jumbo jet in the air, very confined space and lots of character intrigue, Agatha Christie style
Hey, that sounds like fun! Sign me up!
| 284 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:44:59pm |
re: #280 Varek Raith
Though, I must say that this fool that was on Libyan TV makes Baghdad Bob look credible.
| 285 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:45:08pm |
re: #277 Sergey Romanov
[Link: www.channelnewsasia.com...]
TRIPOLI: Libyan state television said a French warplane was shot down on Saturday in the Njela district of Tripoli, as the West launched air strikes against the forces of Libya's leader Muammar Gaddafi.
"Libyan air defences have shot down a French plane in the Njela neighbourhood of Tripoli," it said in the report, without giving further details.
The French military swiftly denied the report.
I doubt that the French would get ahead of AA strikes, or position themselves liable to ground fire....I call bullshit
| 286 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:45:22pm |
I wonder what color of shiny pantsuit Q'Daffy is wearing.
| 287 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:45:25pm |
Gaddafi's police and soldiers "running like mice" when the bombing began. Eyewitness on BBC News. Libyan speaking now.
| 288 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:46:02pm |
re: #278 Gus 802
Correct. The savior for the Navy Phantoms was Top Gun school training and the Sidewinder missile.
and speed....tons of speed
| 289 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:46:12pm |
| 290 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:46:33pm |
re: #278 Gus 802
Correct. The savior for the Navy Phantoms was Top Gun school training and the Sidewinder missile.
Which is ironic in a way, because the Phantom started out on the drawing board as a beefier version of its predecessor the F-3 Demon, equipped with 4 20mm cannons for dogfighting. The Navy, believing the "conventional wisdom" of the time that dogfighting was obsolete, told McDonnell to do away with the guns and use the empty room for more missiles.
Then Vietnam happened and Navy pilots ran into MiG-17s and MiG-21s.
| 291 |
RogueOne Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:46:39pm |
| 292 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:48:22pm |
| 293 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:49:28pm |
re: #277 Sergey Romanov
[Link: www.channelnewsasia.com...]
TRIPOLI: Libyan state television said a French warplane was shot down on Saturday in the Njela district of Tripoli, as the West launched air strikes against the forces of Libya's leader Muammar Gaddafi.
"Libyan air defences have shot down a French plane in the Njela neighbourhood of Tripoli," it said in the report, without giving further details.
The French military swiftly denied the report.
What did they supposedly shoot down and with what? They should be able to be specific.
| 294 |
Tigger2 Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:49:33pm |
re: #212 recusancy
I'm having a hard time finding any of these comments you are talking about. You do realize there are hundreds of thousands of commenters there right?
Over 300,000
| 295 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:50:04pm |
re: #293 b_sharp
What did they supposedly shoot down and with what? They should be able to be specific.
With anti-Zionist rockets, apparently.
| 296 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:50:10pm |
re: #281 CuriousLurker
OT drive-by - I don't really like Bill Maher, but when I saw this I had to LOL in spite of myself:
Bill Maher's kind of like a bitter, mean version of Jon Stewart for the Right. Both generally focus on the other side's actions, but when their own side does something blatantly stupid, they don't hesitate to say so.
| 297 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:51:18pm |
re: #282 McSpiff
Not sure where you're getting the 120 number from, but my understanding is that the number of air frames that can actually transit the Atlantic and conduct ops is quite a bit lower. When you account for ground crews, equipment, etc... if you're flying purely Canadian ops with those planes then yep, that's about the limit of our ability at the moment. I believe Kosovo saw a similar number of Canadian planes.
We also have at least one frigate, 2 C-130s and 2 C-17s in theater as well. Or we did a few weeks ago.
How many CF-18s are there stationed in Europe?
| 298 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:51:36pm |
re: #296 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Bill Maher's kind of like a bitter, mean version of Jon Stewart for the Right. Both generally focus on the other side's actions, but when their own side does something blatantly stupid, they don't hesitate to say so.
Maher is on the right??
| 299 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:51:55pm |
| 300 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:52:03pm |
re: #293 b_sharp
What did they supposedly shoot down and with what? They should be able to be specific.
looked like heavy groundfire to me....quad 50s type MG or some bigger stuff
| 301 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:54:32pm |
re: #298 recusancy
Maher is on the right??
He was back in the day, or at least it seemed that way. Every episode I watched back before I stopped getting HBO was him, two conservatives, and a token liberal that he and the conservatives took turns beating up on.
| 302 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:54:53pm |
re: #286 Killgore Trout
I wonder what color of shiny pantsuit Q'Daffy is wearing.
Yellow! Cluck, cluck, cluck!
| 303 |
McSpiff Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:55:28pm |
re: #297 b_sharp
How many CF-18s are there stationed in Europe?
Honestly I'm not even sure if we have any at the moment.
| 304 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:55:38pm |
...Cruise missiles from U.S. submarines and frigates began the attack on the anti-aircraft system. A senior defense official speaking on background said the attacks will “open up the environment so we could enforce the no-fly zone from east to west throughout Libya.”In addition to the cruise missiles, the United States will provide command and control and logistics. American airmen and sailors also will launch electronic attacks against the systems...
Emphasis added.
| 305 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:55:51pm |
Freakin Wolf. Now calling the other nations "window dressing" claiming "it's really a Americas war" again. Jerk.
| 306 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:56:15pm |
| 307 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:56:17pm |
re: #305 Rightwingconspirator
Freakin Wolf. Now calling the other nations "window dressing" claiming "it's really a Americas war" again. Jerk.
Man, he's going off the rails tonight.
| 309 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:56:51pm |
Here's my translation of a Gaddafi government announcement I just heard on BBC News:
Blah blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, and blah, blah. Blah. And blah, blah.
/
| 311 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:57:34pm |
re: #309 Gus 802
Here's my translation of a Gaddafi government announcement I just heard on BBC News:
Blah blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, and blah, blah. Blah. And blah, blah.
/
What, no use of the word "infidel"?
Null points!
| 312 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:57:43pm |
re: #309 Gus 802
Here's my translation of a Gaddafi government announcement I just heard on BBC News:
Blah blah. Blah, blah, Zionist. Blah, blah, and blah, blah. cheese doodles. And blah, blah.
/
Ftfy
| 313 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:57:54pm |
re: #309 Gus 802
Here's my translation of a Gaddafi government announcement I just heard on BBC News:
Blah blah. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, and blah, blah. Blah. And blah, blah.
/
I didn't know you were blahlingual.
| 314 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:58:01pm |
re: #311 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
What, no use of the word "infidel"?
Null points!
Crusaders!
| 315 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:58:19pm |
re: #304 wrenchwench
Emphasis added.
Mo is severely fucked...I hope he likes it....he messed with the wrong gang this time
| 316 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:58:29pm |
re: #303 McSpiff
Honestly I'm not even sure if we have any at the moment.
We sent 26 in during the Gulf War. Why the huge difference?
| 319 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:59:09pm |
| 320 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:59:30pm |
Wow. Nothing like firepower to stimulate posting. I take a nice little bike ride along the beach before the sun sets, stop a couple of places, have two, no three, beers and by the time I get back I'm 400 some posts in the hole, including the last thread.
So, what up?
| 322 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:59:48pm |
re: #316 b_sharp
We sent 26 in during the Gulf War. Why the huge difference?
not needed...there are tons of aircraft ready to go...one USN carrier could do this entire mission on it's own
| 323 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 3:59:59pm |
re: #320 Naso Tang
Wow. Nothing like firepower to stimulate posting. I take a nice little bike ride along the beach before the sun sets, stop a couple of places, have two, no three, beers and by the time I get back I'm 400 some posts in the hole, including the last thread.
So, what up?
Zionist Cheese Doodles.
| 324 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:00:10pm |
re: #320 Naso Tang
Wow. Nothing like firepower to stimulate posting. I take a nice little bike ride along the beach before the sun sets, stop a couple of places, have two, no three, beers and by the time I get back I'm 400 some posts in the hole, including the last thread.
So, what up?
Libya's getting rocked like a hurricane and we're debating over exactly how fraked The Colonel is.
| 325 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:00:18pm |
| 326 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:00:50pm |
| 327 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:00:58pm |
re: #324 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Libya's getting rocked like a hurricane and we're debating over exactly how fraked The Colonel is.
maxfrake
| 328 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:01:56pm |
re: #323 Varek Raith
Zionist Cheese Doodles.
Homerian mice running towards Zionist Cheese Doodle missiles being launched by infidel Crusaders!!11ty
| 329 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:02:26pm |
re: #328 Gus 802
Homerian mice running towards Zionist Cheese Doodle missiles being launched by infidel Crusaders!!11ty
Libyan State TV in a nutshell.
| 330 |
CuriousLurker Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:02:36pm |
re: #296 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Bill Maher's kind of like a bitter, mean version of Jon Stewart for the Right. Both generally focus on the other side's actions, but when their own side does something blatantly stupid, they don't hesitate to say so.
That's precisely why I don't like him, because he has a mean streak. Same reason I dislike Palin.
| 331 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:02:51pm |
re: #328 Gus 802
Homerian mice running towards Zionist Cheese Doodle missiles being launched by infidel Crusaders!!11ty
Huh, didn't know the Iraqi Information Minister got a new job.
/
| 332 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:03:03pm |
re: #329 Varek Raith
Libyan State TV in a nutshell.
We will be ready for the invaders with sharpened sticks!!11ty
| 333 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:03:18pm |
re: #326 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
How many times I gotta tell you, "Baaah" means "Nooo"?
/
Now that was baaad! I feel sheepish.
| 334 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:03:19pm |
This should be a case where the threat of overpowering coalition firepower shortens the conflict considerably.
Mind you Al is nuts.
| 336 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:04:55pm |
Libyan State Bullshit may beat Baghdad Bob in the category on sputtering crazy nonsense.
| 337 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:04:57pm |
re: #334 b_sharp
This should be a case where the threat of overpowering coalition firepower shortens the conflict considerably.
Mind you Al is nuts.
yes, and I'm waiting for Mo to toss himself into the sea or some similar moment of drama....his time is short (depending)
| 338 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:05:34pm |
re: #334 b_sharp
This should be a case where the threat of overpowering coalition firepower shortens the conflict considerably.
Mind you Al is nuts.
Al Sharpton, Al Franken, Al Jazeera, or Al Hirt?
| 339 |
Darlington Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:05:36pm |
I'm very disappointed in the military action taken in Libya..When I voted in 08, I thought that I was voting against reckless intervention- and for the sensible use of diplomacy wherever possible.
This action against the Libyan government is likely to prove costly - both in terms of money and lives.
It's not a heartening sign that the President has turned towards the failed diplomatic policies of the previous administration.
| 341 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:07:10pm |
re: #339 Darlington
I'm very disappointed in the military action taken in Libya..When I voted in 08, I thought that I was voting against reckless intervention- and for the sensible use of diplomacy wherever possible.
This action against the Libyan government is likely to prove costly - both in terms of money and lives.
It's not a heartening sign that the President has turned towards the failed diplomatic policies of the previous administration.
You prescribe diplomacy here? You mean, speaking with Khadaffi? To what end?
| 342 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:07:39pm |
how will Mo go down?
peacefully or piecefully?
will he fight it out with his pearl handled Peacemakers?
or snivel up and beg for mercy?
who will play Mad Mo in the movie?...I suggest Danny DeVito
| 343 |
Obdicut Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:08:21pm |
re: #339 Darlington
What do you see as reckless about this action?
| 344 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:08:31pm |
| 345 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:08:50pm |
re: #339 Darlington
I'm very disappointed in the military action taken in Libya..When I voted in 08, I thought that I was voting against reckless intervention- and for the sensible use of diplomacy wherever possible.
This action against the Libyan government is likely to prove costly - both in terms of money and lives.
It's not a heartening sign that the President has turned towards the failed diplomatic policies of the previous administration.
I'm curious, how far do you think you can get diplomatically with a man who believes the means of putting down opposition to his rule is through aerial and naval bombardment? What exactly are we supposed to be threatening him with, a harshly-worded letter of disapproval?
| 346 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:09:02pm |
re: #339 Darlington
I'm very disappointed in the military action taken in Libya..When I voted in 08, I thought that I was voting against reckless intervention- and for the sensible use of diplomacy wherever possible.
This action against the Libyan government is likely to prove costly - both in terms of money and lives.
It's not a heartening sign that the President has turned towards the failed diplomatic policies of the previous administration.
Really? What about Clinton and Bosnia. Unless you're suggesting that Clinton and the world should have negotiated with Milosevic.
| 347 |
jamesfirecat Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:09:05pm |
re: #339 Darlington
I'm very disappointed in the military action taken in Libya..When I voted in 08, I thought that I was voting against reckless intervention- and for the sensible use of diplomacy wherever possible.
This action against the Libyan government is likely to prove costly - both in terms of money and lives.
It's not a heartening sign that the President has turned towards the failed diplomatic policies of the previous administration.
"and for the sensible use of diplomacy wherever possible."
Given that Obama and the UN have dotted all the "i"s and crossed all the "t"s I think we've reached a situationw here diplomacy is not possible
If this turns into an occupation/third quagmire then I'll be pissed at Obama also but if all the US needs to do is blow up some tanks/shoot down some plains then stay the hell out of dodge while the rebels take over and set up a new government I'll feel we've done the right thing.
| 348 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:09:09pm |
re: #339 Darlington
I'm very disappointed in the military action taken in Libya..When I voted in 08, I thought that I was voting against reckless intervention- and for the sensible use of diplomacy wherever possible.
This action against the Libyan government is likely to prove costly - both in terms of money and lives.
It's not a heartening sign that the President has turned towards the failed diplomatic policies of the previous administration.
This time, the UN was asked to intervene by the Rebels and Arab neighbours. That puts it into a different ball park than Iraq, and different ends of the ball park than Afghanistan.
| 351 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:10:01pm |
re: #339 Darlington
I'm very disappointed in the military action taken in Libya..When I voted in 08, I thought that I was voting against reckless intervention- and for the sensible use of diplomacy wherever possible.
This action against the Libyan government is likely to prove costly - both in terms of money and lives.
It's not a heartening sign that the President has turned towards the failed diplomatic policies of the previous administration.
idealism will bite you in the ass every time...a bitch eh?
it passes with the years
| 352 |
RogueOne Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:10:27pm |
re: #346 Gus 802
Really? What about Clinton and Bosnia. Unless you're suggesting that Clinton and the world should have negotiated with Milosevic.
This whole thing has that feel about it. A Kosovo with oil.
| 353 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:10:31pm |
re: #339 Darlington
Define reckless for me? I had thought reckless meant unilateral and badly motivated. This looks like neither to me.
| 354 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:11:09pm |
Sniff, sniff. Do I smell troll? Or is that a BBQ being lit?
| 355 |
RogueOne Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:11:19pm |
Butler game is starting, enjoy the night folks.
| 358 |
Darlington Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:12:25pm |
re: #341 wrenchwench
You prescribe diplomacy here? You mean, speaking with Khadaffi? To what end?
There are plenty of available options for the international community here. The "end" would be negotiating a peaceful (emphasis on peaceful) transition and succession of power. Perhaps not immediately, but in the next several months or years.
The diplomatic means available don't simply stop at calling Gaddafi and asking him to resign. There are many ways to place additional pressure on his regime i.e. internationally respected sanctions.
The way in which the U.S. and NATO have opted to go about this will only play into Gaddafi's propaganda, and allow him to paint the rebels as a puppet of the West.
| 359 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:12:26pm |
re: #354 Dragon_Lady
Sniff, sniff. Do I smell troll? Or is that a BBQ being lit?
it's a person with an unpopular opinion here....that used to be quite acceptable
| 360 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:12:38pm |
re: #354 Dragon_Lady
I got the charcoal and the newspaper.
| 362 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:12:46pm |
re: #354 Dragon_Lady
That's the burn of frustration at the "America is always wrong" presumptions.
| 363 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:13:30pm |
re: #358 Darlington
There are plenty of available options for the international community here. The "end" would be negotiating a peaceful (emphasis on peaceful) transition and succession of power. Perhaps not immediately, but in the next several months or years.
The diplomatic means available don't simply stop at calling Gaddafi and asking him to resign. There are many ways to place additional pressure on his regime i.e. internationally respected sanctions.
The way in which the U.S. and NATO have opted to go about this will only play into Gaddafi's propaganda, and allow him to paint the rebels as a puppet of the West.
hey!...try this....think POSITIVE!
| 364 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:13:41pm |
Like I said in the past. I'd bet 100 dollars that if the USA and the UN or whomever intervened military in Darfur we would have heard a lot of rumblings from the usual suspects.
| 366 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:14:22pm |
re: #358 Darlington
There are plenty of available options for the international community here. The "end" would be negotiating a peaceful (emphasis on peaceful) transition and succession of power. Perhaps not immediately, but in the next several months or years.
The diplomatic means available don't simply stop at calling Gaddafi and asking him to resign. There are many ways to place additional pressure on his regime i.e. internationally respected sanctions.
The way in which the U.S. and NATO have opted to go about this will only play into Gaddafi's propaganda, and allow him to paint the rebels as a puppet of the West.
*deadpan* Yeah, because we remember how well sanctions were working at removing Saddam from power.
| 367 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:15:14pm |
re: #358 Darlington
Except he claims or claimed all week they are Al Qaeda. Now puppets of the west? How does that work?
| 368 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:15:37pm |
re: #358 Darlington
There are plenty of available options for the international community here. The "end" would be negotiating a peaceful (emphasis on peaceful) transition and succession of power. Perhaps not immediately, but in the next several months or years.
The diplomatic means available don't simply stop at calling Gaddafi and asking him to resign. There are many ways to place additional pressure on his regime i.e. internationally respected sanctions.
The way in which the U.S. and NATO have opted to go about this will only play into Gaddafi's propaganda, and allow him to paint the rebels as a puppet of the West.
So, we should keep talking while he bombs his civilian population?
| 369 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:15:42pm |
re: #364 Gus 802
Like I said in the past. I'd bet 100 dollars that if the USA and the UN or whomever intervened military in Darfur we would have heard a lot of rumblings from the usual suspects.
my premise is this...when we take on the police roll, whatever ground involves belongs to the US....
think about it, casinos all along the Libyan coast etc
| 370 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:15:46pm |
re: #359 albusteve
it's a person with an unpopular opinion here...that used to be quite acceptable
True. But when the rest of us are trying to be even handed and supportive some one who swings a bat tends to get torched. No?
| 371 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:16:43pm |
re: #359 albusteve
it's a person with an unpopular opinion here...that used to be quite acceptable
Like Avanti and Spacejesus? =)
| 372 |
Obdicut Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:16:54pm |
re: #358 Darlington
What sanctions in particular do you feel should have been used?
| 373 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:17:05pm |
re: #370 Dragon_Lady
True. But when the rest of us are trying to be even handed and supportive some one who swings a bat tends to get torched. No?
So long as he remains civil about it, he can be as wrong as he wants. He starts lighting Molotovs and he'll quickly be shown the door.
| 374 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:17:18pm |
re: #370 Dragon_Lady
True. But when the rest of us are trying to be even handed and supportive some one who swings a bat tends to get torched. No?
isolationism has it's merits....I don't do the childish troll thing, seeing as I'm one myself they say
| 375 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:17:29pm |
re: #358 Darlington
There are plenty of available options for the international community here. The "end" would be negotiating a peaceful (emphasis on peaceful) transition and succession of power. Perhaps not immediately, but in the next several months or years.
The diplomatic means available don't simply stop at calling Gaddafi and asking him to resign. There are many ways to place additional pressure on his regime i.e. internationally respected sanctions.
The way in which the U.S. and NATO have opted to go about this will only play into Gaddafi's propaganda, and allow him to paint the rebels as a puppet of the West.
And how many civilians did you want to sacrifice at the alter of creeping sanctions.
| 376 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:17:32pm |
War was simply the continuation of diplomacy by non-diplomatic means.
Clausewitz
| 377 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:17:40pm |
re: #339 Darlington
I'm very disappointed in the military action taken in Libya..When I voted in 08, I thought that I was voting against reckless intervention- and for the sensible use of diplomacy wherever possible.
This action against the Libyan government is likely to prove costly - both in terms of money and lives.
It's not a heartening sign that the President has turned towards the failed diplomatic policies of the previous administration.
Ah, geez.
Sometimes diplomacy FAILS. When it succeeds, it's likely we never hear about it.
When it fails - what to do?
I'm not the expert. I've not been elected to office. I do assume that our elected officials are privy to information we don't have, and that a President will have a bevy of advisors helping him sort things out and making recommendations, with discussions going on, etc. None of this stuff happens in a vacuum. Not with Clinton. Not with Bush. Not with Obama.
I don't like when US seems to be expected to carry the role of the world's policeman, which isn't necessarily the case here. But that the way things are. And this country acts and responds accordingly.
| 379 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:18:48pm |
re: #371 Gus 802
Like Avanti and Spacejesus? =)
I got along with Avanti just fine.
SpaceJ - well, it depended on the day.
| 380 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:19:17pm |
re: #367 Rightwingconspirator
Except he claims or claimed all week they are Al Qaeda. Now puppets of the west? How does that work?
Al Qaeda are one big black op. Bin Laden is a CIA agent. Didn't you get the memo?
| 381 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:19:31pm |
re: #207 Rightwingconspirator
In the hands of a Libyan pilot? Not quite so formidable as in the hands of a Russian pilot.
"It's not the man, it's the crate"
Baron Von Richthofen the Red Baron, and early genius of air to air combat.
Interestingly, he disliked the Fokker DR I triplane, greatly preferring the faster and more durable Fokker D.VIII .
| 382 |
Darlington Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:19:31pm |
re: #346 Gus 802
Really? What about Clinton and Bosnia. Unless you're suggesting that Clinton and the world should have negotiated with Milosevic.
Milosevic was behind a genocide. Gaddafi is evil, but he hasn't slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people - perhaps several hundred of his opposition. This is horrible in and of itself - yet is it really worth guaranteeing sparking a civil war?
Even while agreeing with the good intentions behind this military intervention, you have to look at the end result of it.
| 383 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:19:32pm |
re: #358 Darlington
There are plenty of available options for the international community here. The "end" would be negotiating a peaceful (emphasis on peaceful) transition and succession of power. Perhaps not immediately, but in the next several months or years.
The diplomatic means available don't simply stop at calling Gaddafi and asking him to resign. There are many ways to place additional pressure on his regime i.e. internationally respected sanctions.
The way in which the U.S. and NATO have opted to go about this will only play into Gaddafi's propaganda, and allow him to paint the rebels as a puppet of the West.
Name the options.
What do you then do if he refuses them?
Do you just let it be and watch as he burns Benghazi?
| 384 |
Kronocide Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:20:43pm |
re: #339 Darlington
I'm very disappointed in the military action taken in Libya..When I voted in 08, I thought that I was voting against reckless intervention- and for the sensible use of diplomacy wherever possible.
A no fly zone enacted by responsible nations against this reckless regime seems like a sensible use of military powers.
| 385 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:21:32pm |
re: #339 Darlington
I'm very disappointed in the military action taken in Libya..When I voted in 08, I thought that I was voting against reckless intervention- and for the sensible use of diplomacy wherever possible.
This action against the Libyan government is likely to prove costly - both in terms of money and lives.
It's not a heartening sign that the President has turned towards the failed diplomatic policies of the previous administration.
There are times when diplomacy does not work to stop the tyrant. This is one of those times.
| 386 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:21:33pm |
re: #382 Darlington
Even while agreeing with the good intentions behind this military intervention, you have to look at the end result of it.
Got a screenshot or something?
| 387 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:21:56pm |
| 388 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:21:58pm |
re: #382 Darlington
Milosevic was behind a genocide. Gaddafi is evil, but he hasn't slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people - perhaps several hundred of his opposition. This is horrible in and of itself - yet is it really worth guaranteeing sparking a civil war?
Even while agreeing with the good intentions behind this military intervention, you have to look at the end result of it.
So the cut-off point is tens of thousands of people? Bombing and bombarding his own people is okay, so long as he doesn't kill tens of thousands of them in the process?
| 389 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:22:10pm |
re: #382 Darlington
Milosevic was behind a genocide. Gaddafi is evil, but he hasn't slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people - perhaps several hundred of his opposition. This is horrible in and of itself - yet is it really worth guaranteeing sparking a civil war?
Even while agreeing with the good intentions behind this military intervention, you have to look at the end result of it.
So you want him to kill as many as Milo did before intervening?
| 390 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:22:10pm |
re: #382 Darlington
Milosevic was behind a genocide. Gaddafi is evil, but he hasn't slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people - perhaps several hundred of his opposition. This is horrible in and of itself - yet is it really worth guaranteeing sparking a civil war?
Even while agreeing with the good intentions behind this military intervention, you have to look at the end result of it.
for people deserving of freedom, yes
might makes right...so we need to project the most might
| 391 |
Buck Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:22:12pm |
I like the idea of airstrikes, but I am unsure that it can be enough.
I might be jaded, but I suspect there are trucks with wedding gear, dead babies, and childrens toys being rushed to the cruise missile targets as we speak.
In a couple of days I suspect we will start to see the results of the 'civilian casualties'.
| 392 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:22:26pm |
re: #374 albusteve
isolationism has it's merits...I don't do the childish troll thing, seeing as I'm one myself they say
Nah, not a troll. Sharp, smart and to the point yes. You make very good points, but to jump in and be immediately condemning tends to be especially annoying. I have yet to see you do that just get a rise out of the Lizards.
| 393 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:22:34pm |
re: #387 reine.de.tout
LOL.
Eagerly awaiting that . . .
Or even, a screenshot of what will happen with NO military intervention.
Either screenshot would be appreciated.
| 394 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:23:12pm |
re: #393 reine.de.tout
Or even, a screenshot of what will happen with NO military intervention.
Either screenshot would be appreciated.
Can you get a screenshot off of a crystal ball?
| 395 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:23:18pm |
re: #382 Darlington
Milosevic was behind a genocide. Gaddafi is evil, but he hasn't slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people - perhaps several hundred of his opposition. This is horrible in and of itself - yet is it really worth guaranteeing sparking a civil war?
Even while agreeing with the good intentions behind this military intervention, you have to look at the end result of it.
Sometimes you have to be practical and pick the lesser of evils. The end result of this action may or may not be costly for the coalition, but doing nothing will definitely be costly for the Libyan people.
| 396 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:23:38pm |
re: #394 wrenchwench
Can you get a screenshot off of a crystal ball?
Magic 8 ball is what I generally use.
| 397 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:24:00pm |
re: #392 Dragon_Lady
Nah, not a troll. Sharp, smart and to the point yes. You make very good points, but to jump in and be immediately condemning tends to be especially annoying. I have yet to see you do that just get a rise out of the Lizards.
I promise to start tomorrow
| 398 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:24:07pm |
re: #394 wrenchwench
No. I tried once. It did not work.
| 399 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:24:13pm |
re: #391 Buck
I like the idea of airstrikes, but I am unsure that it can be enough.
I might be jaded, but I suspect there are trucks with wedding gear, dead babies, and childrens toys being rushed to the cruise missile targets as we speak.
In a couple of days I suspect we will start to see the results of the 'civilian casualties'.
PressTV has a job for you.
//
| 401 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:24:33pm |
re: #330 CuriousLurker
That's precisely why I don't like him, because he has a mean streak. Same reason I dislike Palin.
Perhaps, but there is difference in IQ too.
| 402 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:24:36pm |
re: #391 Buck
In a couple of days I suspect we will start to see the results of the 'civilian casualties'.
We'll probably see that by tomorrow morning. There are reports that Q'Daffy is collecting bodies to stage war crime photo ops.
| 403 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:25:08pm |
| 404 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:25:34pm |
re: #396 reine.de.tout
Magic 8 ball is what I generally use.
Maybe Khadaffi does too.
Reply hazy, try again
| 405 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:26:43pm |
re: #402 Killgore Trout
We'll probably see that by tomorrow morning. There are reports that Q'Daffy is collecting bodies to stage war crime photo ops.
Think maybe they called up Green Helmet Guy to mug for the camera again?
| 406 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:27:40pm |
re: #402 Killgore Trout
This may make the summer war in Lebanon look like responsible journalism/photography. //
Another baby milk factory is in the works. Or bombed ambulances with perfectly unburned seats but a ragged rustoleum black scorched hole in the top.
| 407 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:27:53pm |
White House beehive is ready for spring
I was thinking about a beehive this year but I'm not sure if I'll get around to it. It seems simple enough to build but I'm not sure if I'll get around to researching and learning everything in time.
| 408 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:28:00pm |
re: #402 Killgore Trout
We'll probably see that by tomorrow morning. There are reports that Q'Daffy is collecting bodies to stage war crime photo ops.
fine...what's the temp in Libya right about now?
| 409 |
Buck Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:28:31pm |
re: #406 Rightwingconspirator
...... Or bombed ambulances with perfectly unburned seats but a ragged rustoleum black scorched hole in the top.
Zombies best if I might mention....
| 410 |
danhenry1 Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:28:52pm |
I think our country has done quite well in all of this.
Watch what happens, to the East. I wouldn't be surprised to see some
Iranian vs. Saudi action over Bahrain fairly soon.
What will we do then?
| 411 |
APox Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:29:04pm |
I just don't see how this is really going to work. The media seems very determined to show that it is purely Gaddafi vs. everyone else in the country. If it is, then great. If there are actual factions of people that side with Gaddafi, then they will probably see this as a Western type of invasion.
So, if Gaddafi leaves, then what? Do we stay to make sure everyone plays nice?
I just see this as another quagmire. They call it a no fly zone, but it will quickly become a war, and who knows what follows that.
| 412 |
APox Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:30:31pm |
I'm really glad Obama is president for this though. He was quiet for quite awhile, which allowed for the United Nations to do its thing. We seem to be on the forefront because of our bombings of their surface to air stations, but at least we didn't have another coalition of the unwilling like we had in Iraq.
Hopefully the responsibility doesn't become unbalanced as in the past.
| 413 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:31:08pm |
re: #411 APox
I just don't see how this is really going to work. The media seems very determined to show that it is purely Gaddafi vs. everyone else in the country. If it is, then great. If there are actual factions of people that side with Gaddafi, then they will probably see this as a Western type of invasion.
So, if Gaddafi leaves, then what? Do we stay to make sure everyone plays nice?
I just see this as another quagmire. They call it a no fly zone, but it will quickly become a war, and who knows what follows that.
yup, who knows?...but to see it as a quagmire is such a negative vibe man...c'mon and think positive
| 414 |
Darlington Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:31:48pm |
re: #383 Varek Raith
Name the options.
What do you then do if he refuses them?
Do you just let it be and watch as he burns Benghazi?
Well, several years ago Gaddafi dropped his nuclear weapons program and stopped his support of terrorist groups so that he could make nice with the West, opening Libya up to foreign investment. As it turned out no weapons needed to be turned on him for that change to happen.
Did bombing Libya in 1986 do any good in stopping him? If it didn't then, why would it do anything more now?
We might WANT Gaddafi to go, but the reality is that, (unless he suddenly dropped dead), he isn't going without massive bloodshed.
The US position, from the start, should have been negotiating a peaceful transition to a unity government, one that may very well had allowed him to stay in the short term, but allowed a more free and democratic government to slowly take over in the next several years. The problem is when you get into "black-and-white" views of the world. That's a recipe for disaster.
| 415 |
quiet reader Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:32:57pm |
re: #391 Buck
In a couple of days I suspect we will start to see the results of the 'civilian casualties'.
Gadaffi's puppets have already started playing that card. I am listening to the BBC live feed and just heard one of the colonel's spokesman claiming that the hospitals were overwhelmed by civilian casualties.
| 416 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:33:29pm |
re: #414 Darlington
He did Lockerbie. How much reason can we expect?
| 417 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:34:06pm |
re: #414 Darlington
Well, several years ago Gaddafi dropped his nuclear weapons program and stopped his support of terrorist groups so that he could make nice with the West, opening Libya up to foreign investment. As it turned out no weapons needed to be turned on him for that change to happen.
Did bombing Libya in 1986 do any good in stopping him? If it didn't then, why would it do anything more now?
We might WANT Gaddafi to go, but the reality is that, (unless he suddenly dropped dead), he isn't going without massive bloodshed.
The US position, from the start, should have been negotiating a peaceful transition to a unity government, one that may very well had allowed him to stay in the short term, but allowed a more free and democratic government to slowly take over in the next several years. The problem is when you get into "black-and-white" views of the world. That's a recipe for disaster.
and a comic book approach to geopolitics is a recipe for disaster....Mo negotiate his own demise?...that's laughable
| 418 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:34:29pm |
re: #414 Darlington
I hate to break it to you, but not every Middle Eastern dictatorship is like Egypt. If you expected every dictator there to just roll over and play dead, then you're in for a very long, painful surprise.
| 419 |
Buck Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:34:32pm |
re: #415 quiet reader
In a couple of days I suspect we will start to see the results of the 'civilian casualties'.
Gadaffi's puppets have already started playing that card. I am listening to the BBC live feed and just heard one of the colonel's spokesman claiming that the hospitals were overwhelmed by civilian casualties.
Yes but it might take 48 hours until they get it fully staged for the media.
| 420 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:35:32pm |
re: #414 Darlington
Well, several years ago Gaddafi dropped his nuclear weapons program and stopped his support of terrorist groups so that he could make nice with the West, opening Libya up to foreign investment. As it turned out no weapons needed to be turned on him for that change to happen.
Did bombing Libya in 1986 do any good in stopping him? If it didn't then, why would it do anything more now?
We might WANT Gaddafi to go, but the reality is that, (unless he suddenly dropped dead), he isn't going without massive bloodshed.
The US position, from the start, should have been negotiating a peaceful transition to a unity government, one that may very well had allowed him to stay in the short term, but allowed a more free and democratic government to slowly take over in the next several years. The problem is when you get into "black-and-white" views of the world. That's a recipe for disaster.
Where do you get the idea that attempts at peaceful diplomacy were not tried?
Again, how many civilian deaths are acceptable before an attempt at limiting his military should be made?
| 421 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:37:12pm |
[re: #342 albusteve
how will Mo go down?
peacefully or piecefully?
will he fight it out with his pearl handled Peacemakers?
or snivel up and beg for mercy?
who will play Mad Mo in the movie?...I suggest Danny DeVito
I think he is too spoiled to die for "his" cause.
| 422 |
Kronocide Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:37:16pm |
Yes, if diplomacy doesn't work, just do more of it. Sooner or later it will work!
| 423 |
Buck Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:38:20pm |
re: #420 b_sharp
Where do you get the idea that attempts at peaceful diplomacy were not tried?
Again, how many civilian deaths are acceptable before an attempt at limiting his military should be made?
The Libyan military does not need the jets or even tanks in order to kill civilians. We will see if this "no boots on the ground" policy will reduce civilian casualties.
| 424 |
thecommodore Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:38:40pm |
Even if this results in Khaddifi being overthrown - by us, or as a result of this intervention - I don't see how we'll be better off for having done this.
It's true that Obama hasn't promised that we'll be greeted as liberators, and know glowing predicitions of how the boys will be home by Christmas, and false pretenses weren't used to get us involved. But we're still there, and it's obvious to me that we are going to have to take a prominent role in getting Khaddafi out, and then assisting and/or installing a regime that attempts, however meekly, to implement democratic reforms, all the while our troops remain there, perhaps fighting the rebels we're assisting now, and then Muslim extremists get involved.
Not to mention the fact that we are on the brink of bankruptcy because in large part of the other two wars, for which no end is in sight...
Yadda yadda yadda!
It's terrible what Khaddafi is doing to his people, and I for one would love to see him strung up, but our national interest isn't being served here, and I fear that more people will end up being killed because of what we're doing.
| 425 |
APox Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:39:06pm |
re: #415 quiet reader
In a couple of days I suspect we will start to see the results of the 'civilian casualties'.
Gadaffi's puppets have already started playing that card. I am listening to the BBC live feed and just heard one of the colonel's spokesman claiming that the hospitals were overwhelmed by civilian casualties.
Even if there is no truth in it, if there are enough in that country that side with Gaddafi and want to believe it, I don't see this ending well even if Gaddafi does step down.
I mean, we change a lot of realities here in the United States... Because of belief. Just look at the evolution debate!
/hijack
| 426 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:39:46pm |
re: #358 Darlington
Good points, but the killing of civilians has to stop first.
| 427 |
Digital Display Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:40:20pm |
My Buddy just called me..surprised that the French fired the first shots.. Said they hadn't done that since they took off the back up lights off their tanks
| 428 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:40:56pm |
re: #424 thecommodore
Even if this results in Khaddifi being overthrown - by us, or as a result of this intervention - I don't see how we'll be better off for having done this.
It's true that Obama hasn't promised that we'll be greeted as liberators, and know glowing predicitions of how the boys will be home by Christmas, and false pretenses weren't used to get us involved. But we're still there, and it's obvious to me that we are going to have to take a prominent role in getting Khaddafi out, and then assisting and/or installing a regime that attempts, however meekly, to implement democratic reforms, all the while our troops remain there, perhaps fighting the rebels we're assisting now, and then Muslim extremists get involved.
Not to mention the fact that we are on the brink of bankruptcy because in large part of the other two wars, for which no end is in sight...
Yadda yadda yadda!
It's terrible what Khaddafi is doing to his people, and I for one would love to see him strung up, but our national interest isn't being served here, and I fear that more people will end up being killed because of what we're doing.
So, if it was being done for oil, you'd be for it?
| 429 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:41:00pm |
re: #414 Darlington
Ok, now wait a moment. Step back and think a moment. We have eye witnesses to the fact Khadaffis supporters are knocking on the doors of innocent civilians and demanding they support the regime and when they won't the whole family is slaughtered. And they laugh at the screaming! How do we sit back and allow that to happen? What about Lockerbie? What about all the bombing this mad man has backed? How can you just sit by and not try and put a stop to this mans madness? You don't allow a mad dog to run down the street and bite anyone he wants to, you shoot it! Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one.
| 430 |
Buck Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:42:28pm |
re: #429 Dragon_Lady
You don't allow a mad dog to run down the street and bite anyone he wants to, you shoot it!
Agreed, but can you do it from 30 miles away?
| 431 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:42:46pm |
re: #422 BigPapa
Yes, if diplomacy doesn't work, just do more of it. Sooner or later it will work!
If yelling loud doesn't work, just yell louder.
Esp. if the person doesn't speak the same language you do.
| 433 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:44:00pm |
re: #431 reine.de.tout
Some people like Qaddafi only speak "boom". He's just more used to speaking than listening.
| 434 |
APox Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:44:03pm |
re: #429 Dragon_Lady
Ok, now wait a moment. Step back and think a moment. We have eye witnesses to the fact Khadaffis supporters are knocking on the doors of innocent civilians and demanding they support the regime and when they won't the whole family is slaughtered. And they laugh at the screaming! How do we sit back and allow that to happen? What about Lockerbie? What about all the bombing this mad man has backed? How can you just sit by and not try and put a stop to this mans madness? You don't allow a mad dog to run down the street and bite anyone he wants to, you shoot it! Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one.
It's not that it isn't horrible... I just try to wrap my head around the fact that we will intervene here and not in Africa, where massive genocides have been committed of the sort you talk about, whole families being slaughtered because of a perceived physical difference...
| 435 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:44:19pm |
re: #414 Darlington
Your reasoning is very naive.
Tell me, what evidence do you have that he would accept any kind of transitional government that doesn't include him or his sons? You honestly think he'd just step aside?
| 436 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:44:19pm |
re: #382 Darlington
Milosevic was behind a genocide. Gaddafi is evil, but he hasn't slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people - perhaps several hundred of his opposition. This is horrible in and of itself - yet is it really worth guaranteeing sparking a civil war?
Even while agreeing with the good intentions behind this military intervention, you have to look at the end result of it.
The end result will be a new government in Libya.
| 437 |
jamesfirecat Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:44:56pm |
re: #423 Buck
The Libyan military does not need the jets or even tanks in order to kill civilians. We will see if this "no boots on the ground" policy will reduce civilian casualties.
He may not need the tanks and jets, but they sure do help, especially when the people he's trying to kill are armed and shooting back.
| 438 |
jamesfirecat Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:45:25pm |
re: #430 Buck
Agreed, but can you do it from 30 miles away?
All depends on what kind of hardware you're using doesn't it?
| 439 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:46:12pm |
Ahem...
Security Council Approves ‘No-Fly Zone’ over Libya, Authorizing ‘All Necessary
Measures’ to Protect Civilians, by Vote of 10 in Favour with 5 Abstentions
Demanding an immediate ceasefire in Libya, including an end to the current attacks against civilians, which it said might constitute “crimes against humanity”, the Security Council this evening imposed a ban on all flights in the country’s airspace — a no-fly zone — and tightened sanctions on the Qadhafi regime and its supporters.
Adopting resolution 1973 (2011) by a vote of 10 in favour to none against, with 5 abstentions (Brazil, China, Germany, India, Russian Federation), the Council authorized Member States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to protect civilians under threat of attack in the country, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory — requesting them to immediately inform the Secretary-General of such measures.
Recognizing the important role of the League of Arab States in the maintenance of international peace and security in the region, and bearing in mind the United Nations Charter’s Chapter VIII, the Council asked the League’s member States to cooperate with other Member States in implementing the no-fly zone.
Continues.
To recap: take all necessary measures to protect civilians under threat of attack.
| 440 |
b_sharp Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:47:05pm |
re: #423 Buck
The Libyan military does not need the jets or even tanks in order to kill civilians. We will see if this "no boots on the ground" policy will reduce civilian casualties.
Before Al started using his Air Force, the Rebels were making progress. Since then he's done all he can to wipe them out.
Limit his use of the Air Force and maybe, just maybe he'll exercise the better part of valour.
| 441 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:47:12pm |
No but I do know of a couple AF pilots that can. Very little re: #434 APox
I get it, but we will always have to pick and choose. If we tried everywhere...
| 442 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:47:15pm |
re: #430 Buck
Agreed, but can you do it from 30 miles away?
That bridge needs to be crossed, agreed. Where there's a will, there's definitely a way to get the job done. Send in Seals? Not an ideal solution, but at least we have the option.
| 443 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:47:48pm |
Ahem. Part II...
Libyan regime's claim to abide by ceasefire cannot be verified – UN chief
19 March 2011 – Libya's claim that it will abide by this week's Security Council resolution, which calls for an immediate ceasefire and a halt to all attacks against civilians, still has to be verified, and the regime's current actions are unclear, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said today.
Mr. Ban told reporters in Paris, where international leaders met to discuss the situation in Libya, that he received a phone call last night from Libyan Prime Minister Baghdadi Mahmudi, who said the regime would “strictly abide” by the terms of resolution 1973.
That resolution, imposed by the Council on Thursday, authorizes the use of “all necessary measures” to protect civilians in Libya, where the regime of Muammar al-Qadhafi has conducted a fierce military offensive against a popular uprising.
The Libyan Prime Minister “asked me to intervene to stop military action on the part of the international community,” Mr. Ban said. “Frankly he sounded rather desperate. It is not clear what they are doing. He called for a monitoring team to observe the ceasefire. The Libyan claim has to be verified. There is no doubt the Libyans are trying hard to ward off military action under [resolution] 1973.
“I have spoken with the Foreign Minister of Libya [Musa Kusa] several times to urge the Government to stop the violence and cease fire immediately.”
Continues.
| 444 |
Darlington Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:48:04pm |
re: #435 Varek Raith
Your reasoning is very naive.
Tell me, what evidence do you have that he would accept any kind of transitional government that doesn't include him or his sons? You honestly think he'd just step aside?
Who said that a transitional government could not include Gaddafi?
I'd rather have a transitional government be put in place that includes him for the next 5-10 years, resulting in minimal loss of life, than a civil war starting up that results in massive bloodshed of thousands of innocent people dying, possibly resulting in a breakup of the country, possibly requiring future military intervention from the US in the form of ground troops, with no guarantees that Gaddafi will actually be removed from power, unless an invasion takes place.
The important thing is to remain pragmatic.
| 445 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:48:17pm |
re: #439 Gus 802
Ahem...
Security Council Approves ‘No-Fly Zone’ over Libya, Authorizing ‘All Necessary
Measures’ to Protect Civilians, by Vote of 10 in Favour with 5 AbstentionsTo recap: take all necessary measures to protect civilians under threat of attack.
Ayep. The point of these actions is to remove Gadhafi's ability to slaughter his own people with impunity. If, in the process, doing so strengthens the rebels and leads to his being removed from power, so much the better. The point of these airstrikes and no-fly zone is not the man's removal, simply removing his ability to make war upon his own people.
| 446 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:48:55pm |
re: #434 APox
It's not that it isn't horrible... I just try to wrap my head around the fact that we will intervene here and not in Africa, where massive genocides have been committed of the sort you talk about, whole families being slaughtered because of a perceived physical difference...
Yeah, there is that too. I don't have an answer there, it all gives me the willies. Not to mention nightmares.
| 447 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:49:45pm |
re: #444 Darlington
Who said that a transitional government could not include Gaddafi?
I'd rather have a transitional government be put in place that includes him for the next 5-10 years, resulting in minimal loss of life, than a civil war starting up that results in massive bloodshed of thousands of innocent people dying, possibly resulting in a breakup of the country, possibly requiring future military intervention from the US in the form of ground troops, with no guarantees that Gaddafi will actually be removed from power, unless an invasion takes place.
The important thing is to remain pragmatic.
What in the man's history makes you believe that he can be reasoned with and will willingly give up his power to see a new government brought into power? Hell, what makes you believe that he can be reasoned with, period?
| 448 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:50:00pm |
re: #439 Gus 802
To recap: take all necessary measures to protect civilians under threat of attack.
I'm reminded of that office visit Clinton paid to President Obama. "So these guns, how do they work?" The UN cover is essential, despite dispersions of the UN.[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]
| 449 |
Buck Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:51:06pm |
re: #442 Dragon_Lady
That bridge needs to be crossed, agreed. Where there's a will, there's definitely a way to get the job done. Send in Seals? Not an ideal solution, but at least we have the option.
Which part of "no boots on the ground" is confusing to you?
Obama (and Clinton) have already broadcast to the enemy the whole plan. Boots on the ground are NOT an option.
I am just saying I doubt the ability of the coalition forces to be as effective without using all the dogs of war.
| 450 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:51:21pm |
Image: web_110319-N-7293M-003.jpg
110319-N-7293M-003 MEDITERANEAN SEA (March 19, 2011) Seen through night-vision lenses aboard amphibious transport dock USS Ponce (LPD 15), the guided missile destroyer USS Barry (DDG 52) fires Tomahawk cruise missiles in support of Operation Odyssey Dawn. This was one of approximately 110 cruise missiles fired from U.S. and British ships and submarines that targeted about 20 radar and anti-aircraft sites along Libya's Mediterranean coast. Joint Task Force Odyssey Dawn is the U.S. Africa Command task force established to provide operational and tactical command and control of U.S. military forces supporting the international response to the unrest in Libya and enforcement of United Nations Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1973. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Nathanael Miller/Released)
| 451 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:51:39pm |
re: #444 Darlington
Who said that a transitional government could not include Gaddafi?
I'd rather have a transitional government be put in place that includes him for the next 5-10 years, resulting in minimal loss of life, than a civil war starting up that results in massive bloodshed of thousands of innocent people dying, possibly resulting in a breakup of the country, possibly requiring future military intervention from the US in the form of ground troops, with no guarantees that Gaddafi will actually be removed from power, unless an invasion takes place.
The important thing is to remain pragmatic.
too bad...it's already done, and when you live long enough you will find that no situation is ideal....meanwhile this sniveling about diplomacy is getting old and quit dreaming up negative scenarios
| 452 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:52:36pm |
re: #444 Darlington
You're being idealistic. You're operating under the assumption that he would willingly go along with this. And if he was willing, why has he not already done so? He wants to remain in power at all costs.
| 453 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:52:37pm |
re: #449 Buck
Which part of "no boots on the ground" is confusing to you?
Obama (and Clinton) have already broadcast to the enemy the whole plan. Boots on the ground are NOT an option.
I am just saying I doubt the ability of the coalition forces to be as effective without using all the dogs of war.
That Libyan army is going to shred like a cheap polyester shirt.
| 454 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:53:01pm |
re: #444 Darlington
Who said that a transitional government could not include Gaddafi?
I'd rather have a transitional government be put in place that includes him for the next 5-10 years, resulting in minimal loss of life, than a civil war starting up that results in massive bloodshed of thousands of innocent people dying, possibly resulting in a breakup of the country, possibly requiring future military intervention from the US in the form of ground troops, with no guarantees that Gaddafi will actually be removed from power, unless an invasion takes place.
The important thing is to remain pragmatic.
Watch this, then tell me what "pragmatic" means.
| 455 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:53:15pm |
Relax folks. This is just a preemptive strike to soften Gaddafis air defenses prior to full enforcement of the no-fly zone.
| 456 |
Digital Display Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:54:23pm |
re: #444 Darlington
Who said that a transitional government could not include Gaddafi?
You are kidding right? A dictator sharing Government with others?
That option would make the night of the long knives look like trick or treat..
| 457 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:55:13pm |
OK, I'm looking into my crystal ball. Here's my prediction. The far left and the far right are going to come out in opposition to this action.
| 458 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:55:39pm |
re: #447 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
What in the man's history makes you believe that he can be reasoned with and will willingly give up his power to see a new government brought into power? Hell, what makes you believe that he can be reasoned with, period?
Oh, and before you say "Well, he gave up his nuclear program...," I'll point out that he did that after he's just seen his buddy Saddam get his ass rocked sideways and feared he'd be next on the hit parade. His sudden cooperation and distaste for nuclear ambitions was his survival instinct kicking in.
| 459 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:55:46pm |
re: #457 Gus 802
OK, I'm looking into my crystal ball. Here's my prediction. The far left and the far right are going to come out in opposition to this action.
Oh, please.
You don't need a crystal ball for that.
Show off.
:)
| 460 |
jamesfirecat Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:55:56pm |
re: #449 Buck
Which part of "no boots on the ground" is confusing to you?
Obama (and Clinton) have already broadcast to the enemy the whole plan. Boots on the ground are NOT an option.
I am just saying I doubt the ability of the coalition forces to be as effective without using all the dogs of war.
I don't think you get how powerful modern airpower could be.
Also correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Obama say "no American troops on the ground"?
Sounds like a "no purple dragons" situation waiting to happen isn't it?
| 461 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:56:12pm |
re: #459 Varek Raith
Oh, please.
You don't need a crystal ball for that.
Show off.
:)
You got me! OK, I just rubbed my belly.
//
| 462 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:56:25pm |
re: #457 Gus 802
OK, I'm looking into my crystal ball. Here's my prediction. The far left and the far right are going to come out in opposition to this action.
Yeah, different flavors of the same argument. The Left is going to be pissed because they seem him as "another Bush," while the Right will be pissed that he's "not Bush enough."
| 463 |
abolitionist Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:58:04pm |
| 464 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:59:10pm |
re: #462 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yeah, different flavors of the same argument. The Left is going to be pissed because they seem him as "another Bush," while the Right will be pissed that he's "not Bush enough."
The far right is going to be all over the map with this one.
| 465 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:59:18pm |
re: #449 Buck
Which part of "no boots on the ground" is confusing to you?
Obama (and Clinton) have already broadcast to the enemy the whole plan. Boots on the ground are NOT an option.
I am just saying I doubt the ability of the coalition forces to be as effective without using all the dogs of war.
I seem to remember one of the reporters saying the resolution being open-ended as to that point of no boots on the ground. But there are other countries in on this thing besides us, like oh I don't know, France? England? They all have their own special forces. Were not in the lead here, thank God, let one of them go in after the mad dog and put a bullet into him. The only thing I want is for this to be over fast, and for our boys to stay out as well as Mommar out of power!
| 466 |
jaunte Sat, Mar 19, 2011 4:59:24pm |
re: #457 Gus 802
OK, I'm looking into my crystal ball. Here's my prediction. The far left and the far right are going to come out in opposition to this action.
Washington Times:
EDITORIAL: Obama’s illegal war
Congress, not the U.N., should authorize force against Libya
| 468 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:00:31pm |
| 469 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:00:32pm |
re: #466 jaunte
Washington Times:
Yeah. Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul are going to join hands again. Of course the Teabaggers won't be able to resist the temptation.
| 470 |
Varek Raith Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:01:25pm |
| 471 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:01:25pm |
re: #462 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yeah, different flavors of the same argument. The Left is going to be pissed because they seem him as "another Bush," while the Right will be pissed that he's "not Bush enough."
As a leftie, I see him as another Clinton and Truman. Also, let's see, oh yeah FDR.
| 472 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:01:33pm |
re: #469 Gus 802
Yeah. Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul are going to join hands again. Of course the Teabaggers won't be able to resist the temptation.
Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul agreeing upon something...did I just see four guys on horseback go by?
/
| 473 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:01:34pm |
re: #457 Gus 802
OK, I'm looking into my crystal ball. Here's my prediction. The far left and the far right are going to come out in opposition to this action.
I'm about to unfollow a Cato guy who just tweeted this:
| 474 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:01:51pm |
Let me close by saying that there is no decision I face as your Commander in Chief that I consider as carefully as the decision to ask our men and women to use military force. Particularly at a time when our military is fighting in Afghanistan and winding down our activities in Iraq, that decision is only made more difficult. But the United States of America will not stand idly by in the face of actions that undermine global peace and security. So I have taken this decision with the confidence that action is necessary, and that we will not be acting alone. Our goal is focused, our cause is just, and our coalition is strong. Thank you very much. -- President Obama
| 475 |
webevintage Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:01:57pm |
re: #464 Varek Raith
The far right is going to be all over the map with this one.
I think we have already seen what the talking points on this will be from the right. Earlier on CNN conservative talking head lady basically said:
"Obama is still a pussy because this is what France and the UK wanted and Obama had to be "brought kicking and screaming" to agree and that Q'Daffy knows it so he will just wait us out because he knows the President has such small balls."
| 476 |
jaunte Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:02:24pm |
re: #469 Gus 802
"Why won't Obama do someth...hey, that's illegal!"
| 477 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:03:09pm |
| 479 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:04:40pm |
re: #476 jaunte
They drive me nuts. 20 minutes ago they were complaining about Obama not doing anything.
| 480 |
Donna Ballard Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:05:23pm |
I'm gonna say bye to you all, I have things to get done and dinner to start. Have a great evening and Keep Laughing! 8-)
| 481 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:06:05pm |
re: #479 Gus 802
They drive me nuts. 20 minutes ago they were complaining about Obama not doing anything.
we can see this...beware of becoming so consumed that you are just another conduit for stupidity
| 482 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:06:25pm |
re: #473 wrenchwench
I'm about to unfollow a Cato guy who just tweeted this:
[Video]
Fecking CATO. CATO doesn't want the government to do anything even in our own country.
| 483 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:06:32pm |
re: #411 APox
I just don't see how this is really going to work. The media seems very determined to show that it is purely Gaddafi vs. everyone else in the country. If it is, then great. If there are actual factions of people that side with Gaddafi, then they will probably see this as a Western type of invasion.
So, if Gaddafi leaves, then what? Do we stay to make sure everyone plays nice?
I just see this as another quagmire. They call it a no fly zone, but it will quickly become a war, and who knows what follows that.
I think there is little ideology involved in Gaddafi supporters. Those who support Gaddafi, other than the usual morons who will follow anyone who sounds insane enough, are in it for the money.
If it looks like the money is going to be controlled by someone else, they will bail.
The question is if it too late or not for that.
| 484 |
Kronocide Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:06:53pm |
Napolitano is such a douche. He validates action by determining 'whether they are our friends or not.'
| 485 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:07:23pm |
re: #481 albusteve
They drive me nuts. 20 minutes ago they were complaining about Obama not doing anything.
we can see this...beware of becoming so consumed that you are just another conduit for stupidity
I'm not consumed. I mean nuts in a figurative sense. When I go to sleep at night I usually think about my bills, my neck, and other fun stuff. ;)
| 486 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:07:28pm |
re: #479 Gus 802
They drive me nuts. 20 minutes ago they were complaining about Obama not doing anything.
Yep, the meme's going to be "We should have been there on Day One! The moment he started bombing his own people, we should have had planes in the air! That's what Reagan and Bush would have done!"
| 487 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:07:42pm |
re: #479 Gus 802
They drive me nuts. 20 minutes ago they were complaining about Obama not doing anything.
Well, I was complaining days or more ago, but not 20 minutes.
| 488 |
thecommodore Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:08:00pm |
Andrew Sullivan has a great take:
"This is not going to be a short-term, two-day operation. Even if Ghadafi throws up his hands and gives up, I think it's going to be a long-term event," - the Republican Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Mike Rogers.Rogers doesn't think the Congress needs to be disturbed by something as disruptive as a debate or vote. The president gets to determine alone what what US forces do - even for a long-term commitment, in Rogers' view.
Obama's ratification of this principle is a big deal. It's not that this kind of presidential adventurism is new; but the candidate who vowed to restore America's constitutional balance represents the most powerful example of the resilience of the imperial presidency to date - even after the debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan. McCain's endorsement of presidential war-making would have been totally predictable. Obama's legitimation of it, after explicitly rejecting it in the campaign, is pretty solid proof that it's now an indelible part of the way this country operates.
| 489 |
Darlington Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:09:21pm |
Dozens of workers from sub-Saharan Africa are feared killed, and hundreds are in hiding, as angry mobs of anti-government protesters hunt down "black African mercenaries," according to witnesses.About 90 Kenyans and another 64 citizens from South Sudan, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Lesotho, Zambia, Rwanda, South Africa, Tanzania, Democratic Republic of Congo, Sierra Leone and Burundi landed in Nairobi on Monday, according to officials.
"We were being attacked by local people who said that we were mercenaries killing people. Let me say that they did not want to see black people," Julius Kiluu, a 60-year-old building supervisor, told Reuters.
"Our camp was burnt down, and we were assisted by the Kenyan embassy and our company to get to the airport," he said.
| 490 |
quiet reader Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:10:48pm |
re: #469 Gus 802
Yeah. Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul are going to join hands again. Of course the Teabaggers won't be able to resist the temptation.
The ones who obsessively "watch" this blog are all in with antiwar meme.
| 491 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:10:52pm |
re: #487 Naso Tang
Well, I was complaining days or more ago, but not 20 minutes.
I called for a no fly zone three weeks ago, while BO had his thumb up his ass....timing is everything and I'm not unhappy with his turnabout as much as I dislike the guy as POTUS....he has done the right thing, just real slow about it
| 492 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:11:46pm |
re: #482 Gus 802
Fecking CATO. CATO doesn't want the government to do anything even in our own country.
Yeah, the one I was following was an IT guy or something, and retweeted amusing stuff, but enough is enough. Besides, now I follow Ruth Buzzi.
OK, she's no Nancy Sinatra...
| 493 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:13:27pm |
re: #473 wrenchwench
I'm about to unfollow a Cato guy who just tweeted this:
[Video]
Ah, the Paulified Fox News, Isolationists and 9-11 truthers.
| 494 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:13:35pm |
re: #492 wrenchwench
Gee that is a name from the past.
| 495 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:14:19pm |
re: #484 BigPapa
Napolitano is such a douche. He validates action by determining 'whether they are our friends or not.'
I have never watched him except on Fox, but I stumbled on his show (way up in the 4 digit cable channels where I can't remember any) last night. I thought it amusing that he was strongly against this GOP push to put "In God We Trust" on every wall. He actually sounded like a progressive. "We don't need no government dictating beliefs to us", and "having it on the money is good enough" (paraphrased).
| 496 |
wrenchwench Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:14:41pm |
re: #494 PhillyPretzel
Gee that is a name from the past.
And the present! She just started tweeting, and has been amusing.
| 497 |
Targetpractice Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:14:54pm |
re: #488 thecommodore
Andrew Sullivan has a great take:
Rogers doesn't think the Congress needs to be disturbed by something as disruptive as a debate or vote. The president gets to determine alone what what US forces do - even for a long-term commitment, in Rogers' view.
Obama's ratification of this principle is a big deal. It's not that this kind of presidential adventurism is new; but the candidate who vowed to restore America's constitutional balance represents the most powerful example of the resilience of the imperial presidency to date - even after the debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan. McCain's endorsement of presidential war-making would have been totally predictable. Obama's legitimation of it, after explicitly rejecting it in the campaign, is pretty solid proof that it's now an indelible part of the way this country operates.
What "constitutional balance" has been upset? Obama has 59 days in which to seek Congress' approval, after which he has to bring back the troops. Well within his power as Commander in Chief.
| 498 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:16:53pm |
re: #489 Darlington
And from the same author:
Just kill your own people: The world will turn a blind eye
The Arab revolutions have made two things very clear. First, all positive change has come from within Arab societies, defying all Western stereotypes about Islam and Arab culture and people allegedly not being “compatible” with or “ready” for democracy. Second, Western government have not only failed to support the democracy movements, it has actively supported dictatorships in the region by fostering close economic and military relations. Many governments oppose a No Fly Zone over Libya from the principle of non-interventionism. However, is active support to dictatorships not a form of interventionism?
Doing nothing – letting the carnage continue – also is a choice.
While the state-orchestrated killings in Libya and elsewhere continue, the empty mantras of Western leaders, their endlessly repeated concerns about “stability” and their unwillingness to take a clear stance blatantly show that Western governments they fear democracy in the Middle East and North Africa, because it upsets their cosy relationships with the dictators ruling the region, who serve corporate interests, never mind that they brutally repressed their own people.Yesterday, Fareed Zakaria, editor of Newsweek International, stated on twitter:
“If Gaddafi wins, the message will be: just kill your people. The world will stay away.”
I am afraid he is right.
Let's hope Gaddafi does not win.
But don’t count on the West.
That was written on the 13th. Apparently the author's wish came true. You can count on the West -- sometimes.
| 499 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:19:52pm |
Ron Paul is scheduled on Mike Huckabee's fox show tonight.
| 500 |
jaunte Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:19:56pm |
recent tweet:
Saudi embassy in Tehran attacked by protesters and Basij
[Link: twitter.com...]
| 501 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:20:08pm |
re: #488 thecommodore
Andrew Sullivan has a great take:
Rogers doesn't think the Congress needs to be disturbed by something as disruptive as a debate or vote. The president gets to determine alone what what US forces do - even for a long-term commitment, in Rogers' view.
Obama's ratification of this principle is a big deal. It's not that this kind of presidential adventurism is new; but the candidate who vowed to restore America's constitutional balance represents the most powerful example of the resilience of the imperial presidency to date - even after the debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan. McCain's endorsement of presidential war-making would have been totally predictable. Obama's legitimation of it, after explicitly rejecting it in the campaign, is pretty solid proof that it's now an indelible part of the way this country operates.
That comes of as being rather biased or shall I say an attempt at poisoning the well by ascribing Obama's action and equating it with the John McCain. This is not a unilateral action either and everyone is making it sound like the USA is acting alone. Does Mr. Sullivan have any comments on France or the UK?
| 502 |
Gus Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:21:24pm |
John McCain supports the no fly zone and operation Odyssey Dawn as does President Obama. Therefore, Obama is just like John McCain!
//
| 503 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:21:46pm |
re: #501 Gus 802
That comes of as being rather biased or shall I say an attempt at poisoning the well by ascribing Obama's action and equating it with the John McCain. This is not a unilateral action either and everyone is making it sound like the USA is acting alone. Does Mr. Sullivan have any comments on France or the UK?
He was dead wrong about Iraq when he was a war mongering righty. Seems he learned the wrong lessons and is dead wrong again.
| 504 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:22:41pm |
re: #502 Gus 802
John McCain supports the no fly zone and operation Odyssey Dawn as does President Obama. Therefore, Obama is just like John McCain!
//
Odyssey Dawn. Is she still stripping?
| 507 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:24:16pm |
re: #503 recusancy
He was dead wrong about Iraq when he was a war mongering righty. Seems he learned the wrong lessons and is dead wrong again.
He was right in badgering Rumsfeld for more troops on the ground.
| 510 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:26:15pm |
re: #507 prairiefire
He was right in badgering Rumsfeld for more troops on the ground.
Well, yeah, but that was just obvious from the beginning. Nobody listened to Shinseki or others.
| 511 |
recusancy Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:26:53pm |
re: #509 prairiefire
Oh, maybe you mean Sully?
Yes I mean Sully. McCain is just rambles on and I don't pay much attention to him.
| 512 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:27:11pm |
Watching the Moonocalypse over the Alabama-Georgia border.
| 513 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:30:01pm |
re: #512 Decatur Deb
Watching the Moonocalypse over the Alabama-Georgia border.
can't see it...afternoon clouds over ABQ
| 514 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:31:36pm |
re: #513 albusteve
can't see it...afternoon clouds over ABQ
Just came up through orange funk--you should have an hour or so to clear.
| 515 |
albusteve Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:35:46pm |
re: #514 Decatur Deb
Just came up through orange funk--you should have an hour or so to clear.
one thing about some cloud cover, it lends to amazing sunsets here....every night
| 516 |
webevintage Sat, Mar 19, 2011 5:45:09pm |
re: #512 Decatur Deb
Watching the Moonocalypse over the Alabama-Georgia border.
Can't see it yet...no clouds though.
Has to make it over the trees first.
| 517 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 6:00:32pm |
re: #516 webevintage
Can't see it yet...no clouds though.
Has to make it over the trees first.
It's cloudy here tonight. : (
| 518 |
dragonfire1981 Sat, Mar 19, 2011 6:30:29pm |
Regardless of where folks think the President was born or what God he may worship the heart of it is that innocent people are being slaughtered senselessly in Libya by their own government and we have a duty, not as Americans but as HUMANS to step in and try to stop this. Morally its the right thing to do. Those people have basic rights like all of us. Violations of those rights should rightfully result in strong response.
| 520 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Mar 19, 2011 6:38:34pm |
| 521 |
prairiefire Sat, Mar 19, 2011 6:39:11pm |
re: #519 Naso Tang
And next is North Korea?//
I think it takes a majority of a willing populace for an over throw of their government. That's not the case in NK.
| 522 |
ozbloke Sat, Mar 19, 2011 6:40:56pm |
re: #521 prairiefire
I think it takes a majority of a willing populace for an over throw of their government. That's not the case in NK.
There is a majority in Libya?
| 523 |
areopagitica Sat, Mar 19, 2011 6:41:11pm |
While we all wish that Kadaffi goes the way of the dodo bird, as well as his taste in clothing, the U.S. is going to get a black eye on this and here's why:
this no fly zone operation was in part called for and is supported by the Arab League. But all we have seen is that 5-6 western powers are doing all the heavy lifting. Last I checked, we've sold lots of planes and arms to Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, etc. It's not like these countries have no military. If the Arab states are so gung ho on this, why aren't Saudi air force jets patrolling Lybian skies? To me, it seems like the AL wants the French, British, Spanish, Italians, canadians, and us to do the messy job here and I'm afraid that there is going to be a plethora of propoganda now demonizing the U.S. for participating in this even though the AL supports this.
The pentagon wouldn't even disclose the names of the Arab countries in support of this operation when pressed by reporters! It's time for the Arab countries to get their hands dirty and if they want to stop Kaddafi from killing Lybians, they should be the ones taking the lead in this operation.
| 524 |
ozbloke Sat, Mar 19, 2011 6:43:32pm |
re: #523 areopagitica
They may shortly have some support:
Clovis Maksoud, a former Arab League representative to the UN, tells the BBC that Arab states will soon join the operation in Libya: "They will do it within the framework of the United Nations. Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, perhaps Jordan, will join in one form or another in whatever the leadership of the UN operation requires. There is a willingness to participate in whatever capacity they can. Already they have deployed some of their aircraft to help the coalition."
[Link: twitter.com...]
| 525 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Mar 19, 2011 6:44:33pm |
re: #521 prairiefire
I think it takes a majority of a willing populace for an over throw of their government. That's not the case in NK.
As far as they know the rest of planet Earth is pretty much like them (or the Chinese smugglers they deal with), just worse.
| 526 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Mar 20, 2011 2:14:45am |
Full Thomas interview:
[Link: www.playboy.com...]
| 527 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Mar 20, 2011 7:01:30am |
BTW, folks. Never forget Julius Streicher's last words - "Purimfest 1946!". Antisemites are already connecting the operation against Kaddafi to Purim, like some of their predecessors were connecting some of the "ritual murders" to Purim (along with Pesach).
| 529 |
Mike DeGuzman Mon, Mar 21, 2011 8:51:22pm |
re: #518 dragonfire1981
Regardless of where folks think the President was born or what God he may worship the heart of it is that innocent people are being slaughtered senselessly in Libya by their own government and we have a duty, not as Americans but as HUMANS to step in and try to stop this. Morally its the right thing to do. Those people have basic rights like all of us. Violations of those rights should rightfully result in strong response.
So what will the President will do with Yemen, Syria, Bharain, Saudi Arabia, Iran, when they start to slaughter their own people who are protesting against them? Strong response like in Libya?
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