For the first time in many years a terrorist bomb has exploded in central Jerusalem, murdering one person and injuring at least 30.
Interestingly, this was not a suicide bomber; someone apparently left a small bag on the sidewalk. Are Palestinian terror gangs running out of dupes willing to commit suicide to perpetrate mass murder?
1 |
theheat Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:32:46am |
Are Palestinian terror gangs running out of dupes willing to commit suicide to perpetrate mass murder?
It's awful, but I have no doubt this was a crime of opportunity, and not an indication there aren't plenty of available and up-and-coming suicide bombers.
| 3 |
lawhawk Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:35:59am |
The Israelis are pretty good at sniffing out people who are acting out of the ordinary and thwarting suicide bombing attacks. That leaves the terrorists with kassam/mortar attacks, or leaving bombs along the side of the road (IEDs).
Moreover, I think the terror groups may be starting to realize that if they want to continue a war, they've got to have people who can not just blow themselves up, but who can carry out multiple operations - meaning that terror attacks like kassams, mortars, or dropping bombs by the side of the road may not result in the mass casualties of a suicide bomber, but you can have more of them.
It improves operational security and enables them to carry out more attacks. So, will it could mean that the terror groups scraped the dregs and lack additional suicide bomber candidates, I think the terrorists found an easier way to kill Israelis without putting themselves at risk - allowing them to carry out more attacks.
| 4 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:36:09am |
re: #2 Obdicut
Has anyone claimed responsibility yet?
No, but the Amish said they are releasing a statement soon.
| 5 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:36:12am |
Interestingly, this was not a suicide bomber; someone apparently left a small bag on the sidewalk.
It seems that people are no longer as vigilant as they used to be. When my son was in the IDF, he trained civilians to be aware of "khefetz khashood" (unattended package). He spotted several himself, and the area was cleared within seconds.
| 7 |
Ericus58 Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:38:39am |
re: #5 Alouette
It seems that people are no longer as vigilant as they used to be. When my son was in the IDF, he trained civilians to be aware of "khefetz khashood" (unattended package). He spotted several himself, and the area was cleared within seconds.
I'm not sure there was sufficient time to react to the package being left there. It appears that an individual and car was I.D.'s as possibly involved - seems it was just dropped off and shortly detonated.
| 8 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:38:48am |
re: #5 Alouette
It seems that people are no longer as vigilant as they used to be. When my son was in the IDF, he trained civilians to be aware of "khefetz khashood" (unattended package). He spotted several himself, and the area was cleared within seconds.
Its one of those "They only have to be lucky once" scenarios.
| 9 |
lawhawk Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:40:15am |
re: #6 lawhawk
And additional reports indicate that the mortars contained phosphorus - prohibited under international law (for all who claimed that Israel used phosphorus against civilians - what say you now about the Gazans using them) explicitly with the purpose of harming civilians and/or setting fires to farm/forest lands.
| 10 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:41:21am |
re: #9 lawhawk
(for all who claimed that Israel used phosphorus against civilians - what say you now about the Gazans using them) explicitly with the purpose of harming civilians and/or setting fires to farm/forest lands.
Probably something along the lines of "See what you made them do?"
| 11 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:41:37am |
re: #6 lawhawk
More mortars fired into Israel from Gaza.
This must all be part of that cease fire they've been asking Israel for.
[Link: www.jpost.com...]
I hope the IDF hurts them bad.
| 12 |
Political Atheist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:44:17am |
Looks like the wind up to another war, and the way Hezbollah has been re arming may indicate this is just what they are looking for.
| 13 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:44:53am |
re: #9 lawhawk
Israel did irresponsibly use phosphorus. This is much worse use of it.
After Israel acknowledged it has used phosphorus in civilian areas, it changed it's rules of use to prevent it from happening again.
Little likelihood that those who shell and rocket Israel will do so.
| 14 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:45:16am |
re: #3 lawhawk
The Israelis are pretty good at sniffing out people who are acting out of the ordinary and thwarting suicide bombing attacks. That leaves the terrorists with kassam/mortar attacks, or leaving bombs along the side of the road (IEDs).
Moreover, I think the terror groups may be starting to realize that if they want to continue a war, they've got to have people who can not just blow themselves up, but who can carry out multiple operations - meaning that terror attacks like kassams, mortars, or dropping bombs by the side of the road may not result in the mass casualties of a suicide bomber, but you can have more of them.
It improves operational security and enables them to carry out more attacks. So, will it could mean that the terror groups scraped the dregs and lack additional suicide bomber candidates, I think the terrorists found an easier way to kill Israelis without putting themselves at risk - allowing them to carry out more attacks.
My thought about the lack of homicide bomber attacks (heh), is that they don't play well in the media. I'm not sure why missiles play better, but I think it does.
I don't really think they care about putting themselves at risk. They're bred to kill Jews and are happy to martyr themselves for it.
| 15 |
NervyNews Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:45:40am |
Also, Egypt is warning Israel to show SELF-RESTRAINT in response to Gaza rocket fire (like when Egyptian forces killed hundreds of protesters)... HERE.
| 16 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:46:11am |
The photos of the Gaza celebrations haven't hit Daylife yet.
| 17 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:46:46am |
| 18 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:47:01am |
Hateful insanity is heavy at HuffPo today.
Gaza And Israel Have New Rocket Exchange, Leaving 1 Dead
Jerusalem Explosion Reported: Blast Near Bus In Israel
There is plenty of support for the murderous terrorists in the comments and a few who are calling them out for it.
| 19 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:47:06am |
re: #11 marjoriemoon
This must all be part of that cease fire they've been asking Israel for.
[Link: www.jpost.com...]
I hope the IDF hurts them bad.
Escalating a situation, one that is already bad enough, won't solve anything.
| 20 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:47:35am |
re: #9 lawhawk
And additional reports indicate that the mortars contained phosphorus - prohibited under international law (for all who claimed that Israel used phosphorus against civilians - what say you now about the Gazans using them) explicitly with the purpose of harming civilians and/or setting fires to farm/forest lands.
Probably presents from Iran.
| 21 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:47:45am |
re: #12 Rightwingconspirator
Looks like the wind up to another war, and the way Hezbollah has been re arming may indicate this is just what they are looking for.
But surely the UN troops have been verifying that Hezbollah hasn't been rearming?
/
| 22 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:47:58am |
re: #19 Darlington
Escalating a situation, one that is already bad enough, won't solve anything.
You happen to be wrong about that. When Israel hits back hard, they usually back off for awhile.
Or maybe you think that if Mexico lobbed a few missiles into California or Arizona, we should send them an FTD bouquet.
| 23 |
lawhawk Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:49:02am |
re: #13 Obdicut
The ICRC would disagree with your assessment. They found that Israel used it in accordance with international law and norms of warfare.
And that Israel further tightened its use of phosphorus shows that it will go above and beyond international law and bend over backwards but its opponents will never do any such thing.
| 24 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:50:05am |
re: #18 NJDhockeyfan
Hateful insanity is heavy at HuffPo today.
Gaza And Israel Have New Rocket Exchange, Leaving 1 Dead
Jerusalem Explosion Reported: Blast Near Bus In Israel
There is plenty of support for the murderous terrorists in the comments and a few who are calling them out for it.
I'll take your word. I can't read it.
Israeli casualties are always met with indifference. Dead Jews are acceptable. Dead Arabs aren't.
This stuff makes me crabby and very much un-PC.
| 25 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:50:10am |
re: #19 Darlington
Escalating a situation, one that is already bad enough, won't solve anything.
And taking it on the chin, again and again, solves what exactly?
| 27 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:51:48am |
re: #24 marjoriemoon
I'll take your word. I can't read it.
Israeli casualties are always met with indifference. Dead Jews are acceptable. Dead Arabs aren't.
This stuff makes me crabby and very much un-PC.
I posted a few on the last thread if your interested. The ones blasting the haters are great posts.
| 28 |
Winny Spencer Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:53:49am |
re: #19 Darlington
Escalating a situation, one that is already bad enough, won't solve anything.
Let me guess - Ron Paul 2012?
| 29 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:54:12am |
The UNHRC: Hard at work condemning Israel
The Council is poised to adopt six resolutions this week condemning just Israel – the highest number of resolutions dedicated to bashing the Jewish state at a single session.
I haven't found any reports of resolutions condemning the terrorist that have been attacking Israel. Did I miss something?
| 30 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:55:48am |
re: #23 lawhawk
The ICRC would disagree with your assessment. They found that Israel used it in accordance with international law and norms of warfare.
I didn't say it was used illegally, so no, the Red Cross would not disagree with my assessment. I said they used it irresponsibly. Israel agrees, in that they're modifying their future use of it. The Red Cross is of the opinion that all uses of white phosphorus against human beings should be banned, and the Geneva Convention on Conventional Weapons does ban its use; Israel is not a signatory to that convention.
| 31 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:55:53am |
re: #1 theheat
It's awful, but I have no doubt this was a crime of opportunity, and not an indication there aren't plenty of available and up-and-coming suicide bombers.
There have been strategy changes in the past, though. Suicide bombings were an innovation at one point. The security situation may make them more difficult now.
| 32 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:56:48am |
re: #29 NJDhockeyfan
I missed it, too. They're pigs (which is an insult to pigs).
The meeting on Monday at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva helps explain how it is possible for the horrifying murder of the Fogel family by Palestinian terrorists on March 11 to have been so easily minimized by the “civilized” world. Slashing the throat of a three-month old baby and stabbing a three-year old twice in the heart has sickened and anguished Jews everywhere, but the steady pounding of anti-Semitism at the United Nations has not skipped a beat.
| 33 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:57:16am |
Meanwhile, Pamela Geller is calling for genocide.
| 34 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:58:14am |
| 35 |
_RememberTonyC Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:58:18am |
Isn't it interesting that as peaceful protesters in the mideast begin to see political gains as a result of their actions, only the palestinians continue to think violence is the way to go. It kind of tells you what their real motives are, doesn't it?
By the way .... I wonder if this attack was carried out by the radicals or the "moderates?"
| 36 |
Baier Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:58:23am |
re: #29 NJDhockeyfan
The UNHRC: Hard at work condemning Israel
I haven't found any reports of resolutions condemning the terrorist that have been attacking Israel. Did I miss something?
If the UN has the power to make a war legal, surely they have the moral authority to condemn Israel.
/
| 37 |
Jack Burton Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:58:48am |
re: #33 Charles
Meanwhile, Pamela Geller is calling for genocide.
In other news....
Pope still Catholic.
Bears still shit in the woods.
| 38 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 10:59:14am |
re: #33 Charles
Meanwhile, Pamela Geller is calling for genocide.
As if they couldn't have flattened them 10x over. They will never do that.
Whatever Israel does, they will be condemned.
| 39 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:02:02am |
re: #19 Darlington
Escalating a situation, one that is already bad enough, won't solve anything.
Any thoughts on what might de-escalate the situation?
| 40 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:02:59am |
re: #28 Winny Spencer
Let me guess - Ron Paul 2012?
Sorry, that's really very funny. I'm sitting giggling and saying to myself, "It's not funny!" (It's so awfully sad, it's funny.)
| 41 |
wrenchwench Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:04:14am |
re: #28 Winny Spencer
Let me guess -
RonRand Paul 2012?
FTFY.
Actually, messed it up further for you, in accordance with reality.
| 42 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:05:33am |
re: #33 Charles
Meanwhile, Pamela Geller is calling for genocide.
You know that SNL skit, where it's the parody of Al-Jazeera, and everyone finishes their sentences with "Death to America"?
Pam is the homegrown equivalent.
| 43 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:06:08am |
re: #36 Baier
If the UN has the power to make a war legal, surely they have the moral authority to condemn Israel.
/
They called this attack today "unacceptable." Yesterday, however, they had much stronger language to say about Israel...
Israel UN envoy slams Falk over accusation of 'ethnic cleansing'
Israel's United Nations Envoy Aharon Leshno Yaar called Richard Falk an "embarrassment to the United Nations," after the academic charged Israel with ethnic cleansing on Monday.
Falk, who is also an investigator for the UN, said earlier in the day that Israel's expansion of settlements in East Jerusalem and eviction of Palestinians from their homes is a form of ethnic cleansing.
Speaking to Haaretz, Leshno Yaar said Falk is the man who "claims that it is unclear who stands behind the terror attacks of 9/11 and calls IDF soldiers Nazis."
They got some swell people working over there at the UN.
[spit]
| 44 |
_RememberTonyC Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:07:53am |
re: #19 Darlington
Escalating a situation, one that is already bad enough, won't solve anything.
not true, if the escalator is serious about kicking the living shit out of the people who started things.
| 45 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:09:30am |
re: #36 Baier
If the UN has the power to make a war legal, surely they have the moral authority to condemn Israel.
/
In all seriousness, there is legality to war. You aren't supposed to sit there and take it when someone attacks you. It's not morally or ethically proper either. In fact, it is a sin to allow another country to destroy (or attempt to destroy) your civilization and annihilate you. You are obligated to stand up against tyrants. And if your fists are bigger and stronger, so be it.
| 46 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:10:40am |
re: #45 marjoriemoon
In all seriousness, there is legality to war. You aren't supposed to sit there and take it when someone attacks you. It's not morally or ethically proper either. In fact, it is a sin to allow another country to destroy (or attempt to destroy) your civilization and annihilate you. You are obligated to stand up against tyrants. And if your fists are bigger and stronger, so be it.
It's called defending yourself.
| 47 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:10:48am |
re: #43 NJDhockeyfan
More on Falk's moonbattyness:
[Link: www.thewashingtonnote.com...]
Mr. Falk's comments are despicable and deeply offensive, and I condemn them in the strongest terms. I have registered a strong protest with the UN on behalf of the United States. The United States has in the past been critical of Mr. Falk's one-sided and politicized approach to his work for the UN, including his failure to condemn deliberate human rights abuses by Hamas, but these blog comments are in another category altogether.
In my view, Mr. Falk's latest commentary is so noxious that it should finally be plain to all that he should no longer continue in his position on behalf of the UN. I would note that U.S. and many other diplomats walked out in protest in September 2010 when Iranian President Ahmadinejad made similarly slanderous remarks before the UN General Assembly.
The United States is deeply committed to the cause of human rights and believes that cause will be better advanced without Mr. Falk and the distasteful sideshow he has chosen to create.
That's Obama's appointment as UN Rep, Susan Rice, saying that.
| 48 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:12:06am |
This must be why they blew up a bus in Israel today.
UN: Gaza's youth 'denied higher education' by Israeli blockade
The next generation in the Gaza Strip may be less educated, less professional and perhaps more radical because an Israeli blockade has restricted educational and employment opportunities, say UN and other sources.
| 49 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:12:52am |
re: #47 Obdicut
More on Falk's moonbattyness:
[Link: www.thewashingtonnote.com...]
That's Obama's appointment as UN Rep, Susan Rice, saying that.
This is actually my argument about why we stay in the UN and on the Security Council. Someone with a lick of sense has to be there. Not just to watch what they do, but to speak out when necessary. Kudos to Rice.
| 50 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:14:16am |
re: #48 NJDhockeyfan
Did the fukking Guarniad bother reporting on the refusal of Hamas to allow Holocaust to be taught at Gaza schools?
| 51 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:15:00am |
Israel complains to UN over J'lem attack, Hamas missiles
Israel's Permanent Mission to the United Nations sent a complaint letter to the UN Secretary General and the relieving president of the Security Council over the Jerusalem terror attack and the firing of rockets and mortar shells from Gaza on Israel's southern cities.
"I write to express my grave concern in the face of a very serious escalation of Palestinian terrorist attacks targeting innocent Israeli civilians, which threatens to undermine stability in our region," wrote Ambassador Meron Reuben.
Good luck getting anything more than an "unacceptable" comment from them.
| 52 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:15:52am |
re: #51 NJDhockeyfan
Israel complains to UN over J'lem attack, Hamas missiles
Good luck getting anything more than an "unacceptable" comment from them.
I don't know.... I understand they (the UN) are warming up the strongly worded letter machine....
| 53 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:16:04am |
Of course blame the Jews murdered by this. OF course, no mention of the mortar attacks or the Fogels. OF course, no mention of the realities of the war. It is plainly obvious that the Palestinians, in the wake of Arab unrest wish to show they are relevant and rile up whatever new governments arise in the M.E. It is obvious that this murder and stepped up pace of attack is a callous political calculation.
But that would require looking at the truth.
The one thing that the activists on the far left and the far right have in common is utter intellectual laziness, arrogant ignorance and the false sense that their preaching without substance can substitute for actual knowledge. The main difference is that the right can organize effectively, set goals and act on them, while the left is still too whiny and preachy and disorganized to realize just how castrated and useless they are. It is not about great causes, rather malignant and childish narcissism and a desire for un-earned accolades, a sense of purpose without effort and a sense of importance when there is nothing important about themselves. The difference is in flavor. The left has made being a eunuch into an honor, while the right revels in abusing others. Both are cowardly louts. The left revels in victim hood and the right responds to perceived victim hood by endless bullying. Both are simply spoiled children trying to console their wounded egos that they do not have control. In so doing, they make an even greater mess of things, because neither side ever cared about the facts or the actual causes more than themselves in the first place.
If one really cared about the Palestinians, they would be forced to be held accountable for the decisions they have made in voting and their evil government. They would pay the price for war rather than being the constant recipient of just enough aid that nothing changes while their corrupt leadership lives in mansions. If one really cared about Israel, they would not be expected to suck up attack after attack. No other nation would be required to.
| 54 |
_RememberTonyC Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:16:10am |
re: #47 Obdicut
More on Falk's moonbattyness:
[Link: www.thewashingtonnote.com...]
That's Obama's appointment as UN Rep, Susan Rice, saying that.
Good job, Ambassador Rice.
| 55 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:17:33am |
re: #52 Buck
I don't know... I understand they (the UN) are warming up the strongly worded letter machine...
...to condemn violence on all sides especially the blockade of Gaza and construction of the security fence.
| 56 |
Sol Berdinowitz Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:18:32am |
re: #48 NJDhockeyfan
This must be why they blew up a bus in Israel today.
UN: Gaza's youth 'denied higher education' by Israeli blockade
Hamas refuses to acknowledge any conection between the blockade and their actions.
"I was just standing there, copying pages out of my sister's diary, and suddenly she starts freaking out for like no reason!"
| 57 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:18:35am |
re: #53 LudwigVanQuixote
The one thing that the activists on the far left and the far right have in common is utter intellectual laziness, arrogant ignorance and the false sense that their preaching without substance can substitute for actual knowledge.
| 59 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:19:10am |
re: #49 marjoriemoon
Yeah, I like that she directly compared his views to those of Ahmadinejad.
Seriously, this is the guy who is "United Nations Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967"?
He's a nutjob. The UN isn't seriously trying to help out the Palestinians by having this guy in charge of human rights in Palestine. They seem to prefer appeasing the more radical elements.
I am in no way a reflexive UN-basher, but bullshit like this stinks. This guy has no interest in the truth, in helping Palestinians. This fucker supported Ruhollah Khomeini and said he wasn't a religious fanatic, for fuck's sake! This guy is a fucking joke, a Buchanan-level lover of tyrants.
| 60 |
_RememberTonyC Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:19:39am |
Israel is "damned if they do," and "damned if they don't." So they have made the obvious choice to be "damned if they do." The history of persecution against their people is not lost on them.
| 61 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:20:03am |
re: #25 Alouette
And taking it on the chin, again and again, solves what exactly?
That's a strawman. I didn't say that Israel should do nothing. My opinion is this - Israel should find the persons or groups responsible, and hold them to account.
Hoping that the IDF "hurts them bad" is hoping for the conflict to flare up and cause even more deaths.
| 62 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:20:41am |
re: #61 Darlington
That's a strawman. I didn't say that Israel should do nothing. My opinion is this - Israel should find the persons or groups responsible, and hold them to account.
Hoping that the IDF "hurts them bad" is hoping for the conflict to flare up and cause even more deaths.
War is not a police action.
| 63 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:21:10am |
re: #61 Darlington
That's a strawman. I didn't say that Israel should do nothing. My opinion is this - Israel should find the persons or groups responsible, and hold them to account.
Hoping that the IDF "hurts them bad" is hoping for the conflict to flare up and cause even more deaths.
Israel knows who is responsible. They hide behind civilians and hospitals. Pay attention.
| 64 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:21:15am |
re: #61 Darlington
What do you think of Falk's position at the UN?
Who is the 'them' in the statement "I hope the IDF hurts them bad'?
| 65 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:21:47am |
re: #28 Winny Spencer
Let me guess - Ron Paul 2012?
Erm. I don't appreciate being linked to a far right-wing nutjob.
| 66 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:21:50am |
re: #59 Obdicut
Yeah, I like that she directly compared his views to those of Ahmadinejad.
Seriously, this is the guy who is "United Nations Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967"?
He's a nutjob. The UN isn't seriously trying to help out the Palestinians by having this guy in charge of human rights in Palestine. They seem to prefer appeasing the more radical elements.
I am in no way a reflexive UN-basher, but bullshit like this stinks. This guy has no interest in the truth, in helping Palestinians. This fucker supported Ruhollah Khomeini and said he wasn't a religious fanatic, for fuck's sake! This guy is a fucking joke, a Buchanan-level lover of tyrants.
Actually, I'm kind of a UN basher heh. I don't find them very helpful on most things. Or rather they're as destructive as they are helpful.
| 67 |
lawhawk Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:23:43am |
Video from today's attack:
Explosive was in a small suitcase left next to a bus stop, containing 1-2kg of explosives. Authorities are looking for additional attacks.
| 68 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:23:46am |
re: #61 Darlington
That's a strawman. I didn't say that Israel should do nothing. My opinion is this - Israel should find the persons or groups responsible, and hold them to account.
Hoping that the IDF "hurts them bad" is hoping for the conflict to flare up and cause even more deaths.
I wouldn't shed a tear if they blasted away every member of Hamas who had anything to do with firing, making or planning anything to do with these attacks. If you think that makes me a hideous person, then I'm a hideous person.
| 69 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:23:51am |
re: #66 marjoriemoon
Actually, I'm kind of a UN basher heh. I don't find them very helpful on most things. Or rather they're as destructive as they are helpful.
I don't think we can really judge how history would have gone post-WWII if there hadn't been a UN. I think we would have had a nuclear exchange, and a lot more conventional wars as well.
As a group that prevents human rights abuses, they fail quite dismally.
As a group that prevents large-scale wars, I feel they're quite successful.
| 70 |
jaunte Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:23:56am |
re: #61 Darlington
That's a strawman. I didn't say that Israel should do nothing. My opinion is this - Israel should find the persons or groups responsible, and hold them to account.
Hoping that the IDF "hurts them bad" is hoping for the conflict to flare up and cause even more deaths.
I think that post was referring to the targets stated in the linked news article:
The IDF Spokesman Unit overnight Monday confirmed that IAF aircraft attacked two terror tunnels, two sites used for the manufacturing and storage of weapons and two further terrorist targets in the Gaza Strip. [Link: www.jpost.com...]
| 71 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:25:09am |
re: #64 Obdicut
What do you think of Falk's position at the UN?
Who is the 'them' in the statement "I hope the IDF hurts them bad'?
What position?
| 72 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:25:51am |
re: #68 marjoriemoon
I wouldn't shed a tear if they blasted away every member of Hamas who had anything to do with firing, making or planning anything to do with these attacks. If you think that makes me a hideous person, then I'm a hideous person.
I want to join your hideous party.
| 73 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:26:34am |
re: #71 Darlington
Are you just not bothering to read the thread?
Falk's position is the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967.
and again: Who is 'them' in the statement "I hope the IDF hurts them bad"?
| 74 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:27:12am |
| 75 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:27:18am |
Here are some solutions.
1. Bomb the shit out of the mansions of the HAMAS leadership in Gaza. Let the UN explain the broken swimming pools, and the fat Swiss bank accounts.
2. Without apology set up a tracking array that calculates the trajectories and origins of a mortar or rocket. The second a rocket or mortar is detected, automated artillery will open a barrage. Announce the system is automated and designed to take out a .5 mile radius. Announce that any civilians killed in the barrgae were killed by the actions of the terrorists since the system is automated.
3. Do not flinch when they launch from a school. Say calmly that Hamas killed those people. Do this enough and people will not want rockets launched near them.
| 76 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:27:47am |
re: #71 Darlington
What position?
Here's three:
Falk, who is also an investigator for the UN, said earlier in the day that Israel's expansion of settlements in East Jerusalem and eviction of Palestinians from their homes is a form of ethnic cleansing.
Speaking to Haaretz, Leshno Yaar said Falk is the man who "claims that it is unclear who stands behind the terror attacks of 9/11 and calls IDF soldiers Nazis."
| 77 |
kmg Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:27:55am |
They may have run out of suicide bombers, but they still have plenty of people willing to commit murder for their cause.
| 78 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:28:22am |
I am not preaching genocide, but enough is enough.
How long?
| 79 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:28:48am |
re: #75 LudwigVanQuixote
Difference between us and them, LVQ. They would do that. We can't.
| 80 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:29:23am |
re: #73 Obdicut
Are you just not bothering to read the thread?
Falk's position is the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967.
and again: Who is 'them' in the statement "I hope the IDF hurts them bad"?
When you said "Falk's position at the UN", I assumed you meant one of Falk's statements discussed in the links on this thread.
I don't support Falk's comments, but just because he's the wrong person for the job does not mean that the job shouldn't exist.
| 81 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:30:00am |
From the comments at HuffPo:
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
WoolStreet 18 minutes ago (1:59 PM)
71 Fans
seems the jews taught the nazis everything they know
| 82 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:30:25am |
re: #80 Darlington
When you said "Falk's position at the UN", I assumed you meant one of Falk's statements discussed in the links on this thread.
I don't support Falk's comments, but just because he's the wrong person for the job does not mean that the job shouldn't exist.
Fascinating. Define "Palestinian Territory". Please provide historical and legal basis for your definition.
| 83 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:30:54am |
re: #78 LudwigVanQuixote
I am not preaching genocide, but enough is enough.
How long?
You are a physicist.
For every action there has to be an equal and opposite reaction.
To be clear, there can be no disproportionate response to calls for genocide.
| 84 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:31:16am |
| 85 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:31:44am |
| 86 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:34:09am |
re: #61 Darlington
That's a strawman. I didn't say that Israel should do nothing. My opinion is this - Israel should find the persons or groups responsible, and hold them to account.
Hoping that the IDF "hurts them bad" is hoping for the conflict to flare up and cause even more deaths.
I have not one ounce of respect for Muslims living in the territories. Not a hair. They are radicals bent on destroying Israel when they could be living side by side, trading and enjoying a great economic boom. Gaza sits on the Mediterranean. Think of the tourism. Instead they make their choices to kill. And no, sorry, Israel will not lay down as much as the world hopes they would.
Recently I was reading an article here
[Link: www.hudson-ny.org...]
from one of the Pages written by a Palestinian living in the U.K. who is critical of the situation in Gaza and the West Bank. It's very good, although the Arab world will ignore it for a multitude of reasons.
I am not anti-Muslim or anti-Islam and I have been very vocal in my support of American Muslims. I believe that in my heart. But I will give no sanction to terror. I don't care who it comes from.
| 87 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:34:18am |
re: #84 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
That doesn't even make sense.
Here's a couple of beauties:
Joseph Mustich 7 minutes ago (2:22 PM)
6 Fans
Life goes on....it's time for a no-fly zone over Israel-Palestine....Look what happened in Gaza, a few years ago when Israeli Jews attacked the Gaza ghetto....
or attacked the Turkish ship, or killed Rachel Courey, an American college student from Oregon.....
...
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
WoolStreet 10 minutes ago (2:19 PM)
71 Fans
no israe!=no wartrillions in american budget saved
What a wonderful blog.
//
| 88 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:35:28am |
re: #87 NJDhockeyfan
Here's a couple of beauties:
What a wonderful blog.
//
I never go there. The comments make me wan to puke.
| 89 |
lawhawk Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:36:32am |
Let's get something straight. Egypt calls for Israel to exercise restraint after the latest bus bombing that killed 1 and injured more than 50 people.
That's after dozens of rockets and mortars were fired (and another 10 or so were fired after the bombing) causing damage to farms and communities within range of Gaza.
That's after the Fogel family was murdered in cold blood - including an infant and two other young children.
That's after dozens upon dozens of rockets and mortars fired into Israel from Gaza since the beginning of the year.
That's after hundreds of kassams, mortars, and grads fired at Israel in 2010.
That Israel hasn't attacked Gaza in a coordinated way in the size and scope of Cast Lead is an inherent sign of restraint. Every time Israel shows restraint, Israel's enemies read it as a sign of weakness, but the moment Israel unleashes its military capabilities, these same countries and anti-Israel usual suspects will claim that Israel is using disproportionate force to eliminate the threat to Israel even as Israel's enemies seek nothing less than Israel's ultimate elimination.
Israel appears to be getting goaded into action, as the kassams didn't get a serious response, nor did the Fogel murders, but this bombing may lead to Netenyahu to call up the reserves and mobilize for another push into Gaza to deal with Hamas and PIJ. Israel may also have to deal with the West Bank at the same time - particularly if these attacks lead back to Fatah/PLO/AAMB, which is bad news for Abbas who has been trying to play this as a PIJ/Hamas thing (the triangle offense at work).
| 90 |
Jeff Zazlow Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:37:16am |
The Palestinians have been itching and itching and itching to get into the headlines.... rockets from Gaza, attempted terror attacks and now a bomb in Jerusalem..... I MEAN WHO THE HELL DO THESE LIBYANS, EGYPTIANS, BAHRAINESE, SYRIANS ETC... THINK THEY ARE??? DON'T THEY KNOW THE ONLY PITY CAUSE IN THE WORLD WORTHY OF ATTENTION, MONEY, CHARITY, FOOD, PROPOGANDA AND GENERATING SCORN IS THE PITY A STENIANS?
| 91 |
JEA62 Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:37:52am |
The Palestinians kill Israelis. The Israelis kill Palestinians.
I'm truly beyond caring for either side; they can both go to hell, and they can go without my tax money.
| 93 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:38:12am |
re: #89 lawhawk
There have been op/ed piece in Israeli papers recently discussing the fact that the effect of Cast Lead seems to be wearing off, and that a renewed offensive may be necessary.
| 94 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:38:37am |
re: #91 JEA62
Thanks for your enlightened comment. Now go fuck off.
| 95 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:38:49am |
| 96 |
Baier Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:39:00am |
re: #91 JEA62
The Palestinians kill Israelis. The Israelis kill Palestinians.
I'm truly beyond caring for either side; they can both go to hell, and they can go without my tax money.
Wow, LGF has changed in my absence...
| 97 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:39:28am |
re: #91 JEA62
The Palestinians kill Israelis. The Israelis kill Palestinians.
I'm truly beyond caring for either side; they can both go to hell, and they can go without my tax money.
It's refreshing to see so much clear stupidity in one comment.
Usually, it isn't easy to discern the morons so quickly.
| 99 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:39:35am |
re: #86 marjoriemoon
"I have not one ounce of respect for Catholics living in Northern Ireland. Not a hair. They are radicals bent on destroying Great Britain when they could be living side by side, trading and enjoying a great economic boom."
| 100 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:39:45am |
| 101 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:40:31am |
re: #99 Darlington
"I have not one ounce of respect for Catholics living in Northern Ireland. Not a hair. They are radicals bent on destroying Great Britain when they could be living side by side, trading and enjoying a great economic boom."
Is there is something wrong with you? Who is throwing missiles into the U.K. and slaughtering little babies?
| 102 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:40:32am |
re: #95 Darlington
Wrong. Read about the history of the British Mandate, the creation of Israel, and subsequent UN Resolutions before you bother trying again.
| 103 |
lawhawk Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:40:33am |
re: #95 Darlington
Would that be A areas, B areas, and C areas? /do you even know what I'm referring to?
| 104 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:40:55am |
re: #96 Baier
Wow, LGF has changed in my absence...
I think one of the HuffPo rats might have gotten loose. Anyone got a rat trap?
| 105 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:41:01am |
re: #99 Darlington
"I have not one ounce of respect for Catholics living in Northern Ireland. Not a hair. They are radicals bent on destroying Great Britain when they could be living side by side, trading and enjoying a great economic boom."
That is the most breathtakingly fucked-up analogy I have ever seen.
| 106 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:41:17am |
re: #101 marjoriemoon
Is there is something wrong with you? Who is throwing missiles into the U.K. and slaughtering little babies?
And when the IRA was engaging in terror, the English were not shy about their response.
| 107 |
Randall Gross Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:42:11am |
A lot of provocatively pushing the bubble in various places ... except the North. Is that next?
| 109 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:43:04am |
re: #107 Thanos
A lot of provocatively pushing the bubble in various places ... except the North. Is that next?
I had thought not, given that Syria, Hizbullah and Lebanon are tied up in domestic issues. But now I am not so sure.
| 110 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:44:20am |
re: #80 Darlington
I don't support Falk's comments, but just because he's the wrong person for the job does not mean that the job shouldn't exist.
Who said that it does mean that?
| 111 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:44:33am |
I apologize to those present for my deleted comment. The sentiment expressed, however, stands.
| 112 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:44:40am |
re: #61 Darlington
That's a strawman. I didn't say that Israel should do nothing. My opinion is this - Israel should find the persons or groups responsible, and hold them to account.
Hoping that the IDF "hurts them bad" is hoping for the conflict to flare up and cause even more deaths.
"Find the persons or groups responsible". OK. Now, if they are residents of Gaza or the West Bank, areas not under Israeli jurisdiction, as seems likely, what should Israel do to locate them or to hold them accountable?
| 113 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:45:55am |
re: #101 marjoriemoon
Is there is something wrong with you? Who is throwing missiles into the U.K. and slaughtering little babies?
Perhaps not now.
But apparently you don't see the problem in demeaning an entire ethnic group as supporters of terror. To me, that's not an acceptable statement. Perhaps it is to you.
| 114 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:46:00am |
| 115 |
kmg Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:46:12am |
While I strongly disagree with JEA62, people have these opinions because the media reports on the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians as if their actions/reactions are morally equivalent. They are absolutely not!!! The Palestinians and their allies target civilians while the Israelis target their enemies' fighters (terrorists) and military target and always have. Yet the accidental killing of Palestinian human shields get the same condemnation as when the Palestinians purposely target and kill Israeli civilians. They are not morally or even legally equivalent.
| 116 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:47:26am |
re: #114 SanFranciscoZionist
This WoolStreet person seems to be a real gem.
After going through the comments I think WoolStreet's whole fucking family is there.
| 117 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:47:41am |
re: #96 Baier
Wow, LGF has changed in my absence...
I don't know when you were here last, but watch the dings.
| 118 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:47:47am |
re: #101 marjoriemoon
Is there is something wrong with you? Who is throwing missiles into the U.K. and slaughtering little babies?
The IRA really did kill children. And saying that you have no respect for any Muslim living in the territories-- many of them have no choice but to live there. They don't have the means to move anywhere. So even those who might loathe Hamas cannot necessarily get out of there. So it's painting with a broad brush to condemn all of those living there.
| 119 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:48:12am |
re: #110 Obdicut
Who said that it does mean that?
Nobody, but that was the presumed intent of the question. You seemed to be attacking the credibility of the position.
| 120 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:48:19am |
re: #113 Darlington
Perhaps not now.
But apparently you don't see the problem in demeaning an entire ethnic group as supporters of terror. To me, that's not an acceptable statement. Perhaps it is to you.
"Residents of Gaza and the West Bank" are not an ethnic group. To the extent they represent a single ethnicity, that is because of their habit of murdering any others who dare live amongst them. I don't see a lot of Palestinians standing up and decrying the murderous actions of Hamas. Mainly, because those that do disappear.
| 121 |
Political Atheist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:49:00am |
re: #13 Obdicut
Israel did irresponsibly use phosphorus. This is much worse use of it.
After Israel acknowledged it has used phosphorus in civilian areas, it changed it's rules of use to prevent it from happening again.
Little likelihood that those who shell and rocket Israel will do so.
Agreed, plus lets remember they often use suicide bombers laced with diseases, and bombs with rat poison to worsen the suffering. And the only reason Israel ever shells civilian areas is the Palestinian militants hide among them, sometimes at gunpoint. Now Israel can not use phosphorous shells as target marking at least in Gaza. A small but very telling (IMO) tactical victory for the Palestinian militants.
| 122 |
The Mountain That Blogs Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:49:37am |
re: #115 kmg
Yet the accidental killing of Palestinian human shields get the same condemnation as when the Palestinians purposely target and kill Israeli civilians
Nah. It's usually condemned much more harshly
| 123 |
Romantic Heretic Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:51:33am |
re: #24 marjoriemoon
I'll take your word. I can't read it.
Israeli casualties are always met with indifference. Dead Jews are acceptable. Dead Arabs aren't.
This stuff makes me crabby and very much un-PC.
Neither are acceptable to me.
It's why I always end up with everyone mad at me.
| 124 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:51:34am |
re: #118 Obdicut
The IRA really did kill children. And saying that you have no respect for any Muslim living in the territories-- many of them have no choice but to live there. They don't have the means to move anywhere. So even those who might loathe Hamas cannot necessarily get out of there. So it's painting with a broad brush to condemn all of those living there.
This. Much as anger may sometimes blind me to it.
| 125 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:51:58am |
Darlington, you've dodged this question three times now.
I'd really like an answer.
Who is 'them' in the statement "I hope the IDF hurts them bad"?
| 126 |
Winny Spencer Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:52:18am |
re: #113 Darlington
Perhaps not now.
But apparently you don't see the problem in demeaning an entire ethnic group as supporters of terror. To me, that's not an acceptable statement. Perhaps it is to you.
Not now? Not ever.
| 127 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:53:04am |
re: #113 Darlington
Perhaps not now.
But apparently you don't see the problem in demeaning an entire ethnic group as supporters of terror. To me, that's not an acceptable statement. Perhaps it is to you.
Then you missed my statement upthread.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 128 |
iossarian Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:53:06am |
re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist
"Find the persons or groups responsible". OK. Now, if they are residents of Gaza or the West Bank, areas not under Israeli jurisdiction, as seems likely, what should Israel do to locate them or to hold them accountable?
I would much rather have this conversation, namely what can actually be done to reduce the ongoing carnage, than the one about who is to blame.
Because unfortunately, no matter how much we may think we're in the right, the other side is equally sure of their own rectitude.
Note: I am not saying this to rule out the use of force. But it should be borne in mind that the use of force alone is unlikely to resolve conflict, except in the short term.
| 129 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:53:17am |
re: #126 Winny Spencer
The IRA really did commit a long series of terrorist actions against the UK, and really did kill children while doing so.
That none of those attacks took the form of a missile seems rather trivial to me.
| 130 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:53:54am |
re: #125 Obdicut
Darlington, you've dodged this question three times now.
I'd really like an answer.
@Darlington: You really should answer the question. Obdicut doesn't let go; he'll be asking you in a week if you haven't been banned by then.
| 131 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:54:17am |
re: #126 Winny Spencer
Not now? Not ever.
Not now.
Wikipedia:
Provisional Irish Republican Army campaign 1969–1997
British Armed Forces: 655
RUC: 272 dead
621-644 civilians killed by Provisional IRA.
| 132 |
iossarian Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:54:21am |
re: #125 Obdicut
Darlington, you've dodged this question three times now.
I'd really like an answer.
I think the original comment was made not by Darlington, but by marjoriemoon?
re: #11 marjoriemoon
This must all be part of that cease fire they've been asking Israel for.
[Link: www.jpost.com...]
I hope the IDF hurts them bad.
| 133 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:54:31am |
re: #118 Obdicut
The IRA really did kill children. And saying that you have no respect for any Muslim living in the territories-- many of them have no choice but to live there. They don't have the means to move anywhere. So even those who might loathe Hamas cannot necessarily get out of there. So it's painting with a broad brush to condemn all of those living there.
I don't buy it Obdi. They do get out and when I read about Palestinians living outside the territories in the Western world with educations, then I know THEY know the score and chose terror instead. I have no love for them nor sympathy.
| 134 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:56:05am |
re: #132 iossarian
Yes. And Darlington interpreted that in this form:
Hoping that the IDF "hurts them bad" is hoping for the conflict to flare up and cause even more deaths.
Which is a heavy accusation-- an accusation that Marjorie wants more deaths.
| 135 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:56:19am |
re: #125 Obdicut
Darlington, you've dodged this question three times now.
I'd really like an answer.
Well, marjoriemoon posted that with a link relating to Hamas - but now she's also posted that she thinks that all Muslims living in the territories are guilty of supporting/enabling terror.
| 136 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:57:38am |
re: #75 LudwigVanQuixote
Here are some solutions.
1. Bomb the shit out of the mansions of the HAMAS leadership in Gaza. Let the UN explain the broken swimming pools, and the fat Swiss bank accounts.
2. Without apology set up a tracking array that calculates the trajectories and origins of a mortar or rocket. The second a rocket or mortar is detected, automated artillery will open a barrage. Announce the system is automated and designed to take out a .5 mile radius. Announce that any civilians killed in the barrgae were killed by the actions of the terrorists since the system is automated.
3. Do not flinch when they launch from a school. Say calmly that Hamas killed those people. Do this enough and people will not want rockets launched near them.
Many of the "mansions" are in Syria (Khaled Mashaal).
I don't think automatic targeting systems are quite legal. I am pretty sure that you have to do everything you can to NOT allow the targeting of civilian areas. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but it can't be on purpose or just because a human didn't actually aim.
The people do not want rockets launched near them now. Your number 3 seems to assume they have a choice.
| 137 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:57:39am |
Palestinian behavior is utterly predictable. They have been victimized by their own leadership for decades, by way of institutionalized bigotry, racism and hatred taught in schools, published and broadcast in media and often preached from pulpits.
That said, at some point a society must be held accountable, especially when the weapons of terror become more sophisticated.
Further, the Palestinians do not live in a bubble as they might have in the past. Technology has made the world a much smaller place and ideas once unknown are now commonplace.
The Arab world and the Palestinians have run out of excuses. The time for change has arrived- be it it Tunis, Cairo, Tripoli, Damascus or Gaza.
| 138 |
Winny Spencer Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:58:04am |
re: #131 Darlington
Not now.
Wikipedia:
"throwing missiles"
"slaughtering little babies"
Not ever. 30-year long conflict and you can not find one incident like the one in the West Bank 11 days ago. Not one.
| 139 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:58:15am |
re: #133 marjoriemoon
I don't buy it Obdi. They do get out and when I read about Palestinians living outside the territories in the Western world with educations, then I know THEY know the score and chose terror instead. I have no love for them nor sympathy.
We cannot let hatred and grief blind us to the fact that there are certainly Palestinians who decry the killing and wish to live in peace. Hamas is doing their utmost to raise successive generations of poorly educated, anti-Semitic potential jihadists. But there are reasonable voices amongst expatriate Palestinians, notably writing and blogging at Hudson New York and other places.
| 140 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:58:37am |
re: #133 marjoriemoon
I don't buy it Obdi. They do get out and when I read about Palestinians living outside the territories in the Western world with educations, then I know THEY know the score and chose terror instead. I have no love for them nor sympathy.
That is a huge mistake on your part. Yes, some do get out-- those with the money or connections or sheer chutzpah to pull it off. But many more really don't. Without a visa, they'll be illegal immigrants. Where can they go to legally? To the stinking, abusive refugee camps-- which have terrorists actively recruiting in them anyway? Western Europe and the US only take so many Palestinians.
It may be preferable to think everyone in the territories chose to be there, but it's not true. Not unless you can show me a place where every Palestinian who wanted to leave could go.
| 141 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 11:58:46am |
re: #135 Darlington
Well, marjoriemoon posted that with a link relating to Hamas - but now she's also posted that she thinks that all Muslims living in the territories are guilty of supporting/enabling terror.
BTW, I would still like an answer to MY question. If Israel is able to establish that, say, the bomber resides in Gaza City, and was sent by Hamas leadership, what is their next move to hold him and them to account?
| 142 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:00:33pm |
re: #135 Darlington
Well, marjoriemoon posted that with a link relating to Hamas - but now she's also posted that she thinks that all Muslims living in the territories are guilty of supporting/enabling terror.
Yes, but you interpreted it that way before she said anything of that nature. So I'd prefer your honest answer to a more convenient one-- that being 'Hamas'.
So, you think the statement "I hope the IDF hurts Hamas bad" is a call for the conflict to flare up? Israel can never attack Hamas's terrorist groups, because it causes more violence and more death than not doing so?
| 143 |
iossarian Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:01:56pm |
re: #138 Winny Spencer
"throwing missiles"
"slaughtering little babies"Not ever. 30-year long conflict and you can not find one incident like the one in the West Bank 11 days ago. Not one.
I don't think there's much to be gained by comparing levels of atrocity. The IRA committed acts of terrorism. If they weren't "as bad" as acts committed by Palestinian terrorists, does that really make much of a difference?
The point remains the same: characterizing an entire population as being in league with a terrorist group is not going to lead to a long-term solution, or even much of an improvement.
| 144 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:03:05pm |
re: #135 Darlington
Well, marjoriemoon posted that with a link relating to Hamas - but now she's also posted that she thinks that all Muslims living in the territories are guilty of supporting/enabling terror.
What do you know about it? Your ignorance speaks volumes.
They learn the hatred as soon as they can walk. Sooner.
Image: peace-sign_suicide_bomber_belt.png
Image: mom%20bomb%20w%20baby.jpg
Go find me Jews who do this. I'm done with your moral equivalence.
| 145 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:03:44pm |
ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN TENSIONS ESCALATING: A SPECIAL REPORT
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has reportedly delayed his March 23 trip to Moscow following a bombing at bus stop in central Jerusalem that injured as many as 34 people. The bombing follows a series of recent mortar and rocket attacks emanating from the Gaza Strip reaching as far as the outskirts of Ashdod and Beersheba, as well as the March 11 massacre of an Israeli family in the West Bank settlement of Itamar.
Netanyahu, already facing a political crisis at home in trying to hold his fragile coalition government together, now faces a serious dilemma. There were strong hints that Netanyahu may hold a meeting with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in Moscow to restart the peace process and avoid becoming entrapped in another military campaign in the Palestinian territories, but that plan is now effectively derailed. Though the precise perpetrators and their backers remain unclear, a Palestinian faction or factions appear to be deliberately escalating the crisis and thus raising the potential for Israel to mount another military operation in the Palestinian territories.
Attacks in Jerusalem, while rare, raise concerns in Israel that a more capable militant presence is building in Fatah-controlled West Bank in addition to Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip. Even before the Jerusalem bombing, Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Silvan Shalom told Israeli citizens in a March 23 Israel Radio broadcast that “we may have to consider a return” to a second Operation Cast Lead in Gaza. He added, “I say this despite the fact that I know such a thing would, of course, bring the region to a far more combustible situation.” The past few years of Palestinian violence against Israel has been mostly characterized by Gaza-based rocket attacks as well as a spate of attacks in 2008 in which militants used bulldozers to plow into both civilian and security targets in Jerusalem. Though various claims and denials were issued for many of the incidents, the perpetrators of these attacks — likely deliberately — remained unclear.
The names of shadowy groups such as the “al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade-Imad Mughniyah” also began circulating, raising suspicions of a stronger Hezbollah — and by extension, Iranian — link to Palestinian militancy. (Imad Mughniyah, one of Hezbollah’s most notorious commanders, was killed in February 2008 in Damascus.) The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades-Imad Mughniyah group claimed the March 11 West Bank attack, which Hamas denied. Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s (PIJ) armed wing, the al-Quds Brigades, has meanwhile claimed responsibility for the recent rocket attacks launched from Gaza that targeted Ashkelon and Sderot. PIJ spokesman Abu Hamad said March 23 prior to the Jerusalem bus bombing that his group intends to begin targeting cities deep within Israeli territory as it enters a “new phase of the resistance.” This is notable, as PIJ, out of all the Palestinian militant groups, has the closest ties to Iran.
The wider regional context is pertinent to the building crisis in Israel and the Palestinian territories. Iran has been pursuing a covert destabilization campaign in the Persian Gulf region to undermine its Sunni Arab rivals, particularly in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. The Saudis reacted swiftly to the threat with the deployment of troops to Bahrain and are now engaging in a variety of measures to try to suppress Shiite unrest within the kingdom itself. The fear remains, however, that Iran has retained a number of covert assets in the region that it can choose to activate at an opportune time. Iran opening another front in the Levant, using its already well-established links to Hezbollah in Lebanon and its developing links to Hamas and other players in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, remains a distinct possibility and is likely being discussed in the crisis meetings under way in Israel at this time.
| 146 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:03:55pm |
re: #134 Obdicut
Yes. And Darlington interpreted that in this form:
Which is a heavy accusation-- an accusation that Marjorie wants more deaths.
I do. Everyone in Hamas.
| 147 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:03:55pm |
re: #138 Winny Spencer
What are you talking about?
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Bomb killed children. Baby died at the scene.
What is the huge difference?
| 148 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:06:08pm |
re: #135 Darlington
Well, marjoriemoon posted that with a link relating to Hamas - but now she's also posted that she thinks that all Muslims living in the territories are guilty of supporting/enabling terror.
I'd like to add something here. Marjorie is talking about sympathy. She's out of it. I'm damn close.
Does this mean that we don't understand that not all Palestinians have the moral standing of Hamas? No, it doesn't. We get that. But as an American Jew, I have to tell you, I'm exhausted. This goes on, with no hope in sight, the number of the dead that I carry around in my soul goes up, and every time another horror like this bus bombing, like Itamar, like the dozens and hundreds that came before it, long before the State of Israel even existed, then a good chunk of the world promptly screams that Israel had it coming, that any response is disproportionate, and I am once again asked to be the bigger person, and understand the humanity of a society that denies mine.
I'm tired. Damn tired. And I don't even live in Israel. Consider this.
| 149 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:06:10pm |
BBL. Chores to do, and I have not yet been able to account for all friends and family in Jerusalem. Phone calls.
| 150 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:07:24pm |
re: #146 marjoriemoon
I do. Everyone in Hamas.
I shed no tears for anyone in Hamas, but you're still absolutely wrong about everyone in the territories being collectively guilty.
I mean, Hamas tortures and beats the shit out of people who oppose them. Just making it known that you want to leave the territories is probably an invitation to have someone come by and break your legs.
| 151 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:07:43pm |
re: #140 Obdicut
That is a huge mistake on your part. Yes, some do get out-- those with the money or connections or sheer chutzpah to pull it off. But many more really don't. Without a visa, they'll be illegal immigrants. Where can they go to legally? To the stinking, abusive refugee camps-- which have terrorists actively recruiting in them anyway? Western Europe and the US only take so many Palestinians.
It may be preferable to think everyone in the territories chose to be there, but it's not true. Not unless you can show me a place where every Palestinian who wanted to leave could go.
I don't know and quite frankly, I don't think you know. I had a Palestinian hairdresser years ago. We didn't talk politics except to rib each other over being Jewish and Muslim. He was gay and came to the states through Israel. He was thrilled to be in Miami. We always said we'd go have coffee and dish the political dirt, but it never happened. My loss.
Anyway, Palestinians are well educated out of the territories. Most end up in Britain. I imagine they do not have good things to say about their brethren. I'll try to research it more.
| 152 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:07:53pm |
re: #149 imp_62
BBL. Chores to do, and I have not yet been able to account for all friends and family in Jerusalem. Phone calls.
Many prayers. I hope everyone's safe and sound.
| 153 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:08:12pm |
re: #143 iossarian
I don't think there's much to be gained by comparing levels of atrocity. The IRA committed acts of terrorism. If they weren't "as bad" as acts committed by Palestinian terrorists, does that really make much of a difference?
The point remains the same: characterizing an entire population as being in league with a terrorist group is not going to lead to a long-term solution, or even much of an improvement.
Obviously you can't even say that the ENTIRE population of a country supports it's own armed forces....
However a the citizens of the country must take responsibility for what their leaders do. The Palestinian people, as a group, have had many opportunities to show that they don't support these murdering blood addicted leaders, and have again and again instead made the conscience effort to support them.
| 154 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:08:35pm |
re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist
That Falk holds that UN position really is spitting in the face of not just Israel, bu the US as well for his 9/11 trutherism bullshit and his "the Khomeni isn't that bad" asininity.
| 155 |
shutdown Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:09:23pm |
re: #153 Buck
Obviously you can't even say that the ENTIRE population of a country supports it's own armed forces...
However a the citizens of the country must take responsibility for what their leaders do. The Palestinian people, as a group, have had many opportunities to show that they don't support these murdering blood addicted leaders, and have again and again instead made the conscience effort to support them.
I have been rude to you in the past. I probably will be again, in future. But today, I like you.
| 156 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:09:37pm |
re: #144 marjoriemoon
What do you know about it? Your ignorance speaks volumes.
They learn the hatred as soon as they can walk. Sooner.
Image: peace-sign_suicide_bomber_belt.png
Image: mom%20bomb%20w%20baby.jpg
Go find me Jews who do this. I'm done with your moral equivalence.
Suicide bombers are considered heros among the Palis. Women having children who become suicide bombers is looked upon as their 'holy duty'. It can also make you so popular that you can be elected to the Pali Parlament.
| 157 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:09:44pm |
re: #79 imp_62
Difference between us and them, LVQ. They would do that. We can't.
Actually we can. It is high time we fight to win. War is ugly.
| 158 |
iossarian Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:10:40pm |
re: #156 NJDhockeyfan
Suicide bombers are considered heros among the Palis. Women having children who become suicide bombers is looked upon as their 'holy duty'. It can also make you so popular that you can be elected to the Pali Parlament.
What's a Pali?
Is it like a Paki?
| 159 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:11:34pm |
| 160 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:11:40pm |
re: #151 marjoriemoon
I don't know and quite frankly, I don't think you know.
What don't I know? I do definitely know there is no nation on earth that allows unlimited immigration from anywhere, and I do know that it takes money to get from point A to point B.
I have a good friend who is a Palestinian corner store owner in San Francisco, who spends most of his time and spare income working to get his relatives out of Palestine, to somewhere peaceful. It is not easy to do. I don't know if any of his relatives are in Gaza, but in this case, his whole family wants to leave, they have financial support, and still they're not all out.
| 161 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:12:02pm |
re: #144 marjoriemoon
What do you know about it? Your ignorance speaks volumes.
They learn the hatred as soon as they can walk. Sooner.
Image: peace-sign_suicide_bomber_belt.png
Image: mom%20bomb%20w%20baby.jpg
Go find me Jews who do this. I'm done with your moral equivalence.
Okay. Let's not talk about examples of terrorism. We're both against that.
You're talking about an entire people in general. I'm getting that you think the typical Palestinian Muslim living in the West Bank or elsewhere is guilty of supporting terror? Do you? Simple question here.
| 162 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:12:19pm |
re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist
I'd like to add something here. Marjorie is talking about sympathy. She's out of it. I'm damn close.
Does this mean that we don't understand that not all Palestinians have the moral standing of Hamas? No, it doesn't. We get that. But as an American Jew, I have to tell you, I'm exhausted. This goes on, with no hope in sight, the number of the dead that I carry around in my soul goes up, and every time another horror like this bus bombing, like Itamar, like the dozens and hundreds that came before it, long before the State of Israel even existed, then a good chunk of the world promptly screams that Israel had it coming, that any response is disproportionate, and I am once again asked to be the bigger person, and understand the humanity of a society that denies mine.
I'm tired. Damn tired. And I don't even live in Israel. Consider this.
Word!
I wouldn't be so damn tired if the world at least acknowledged the fact that the suffering isn't one sided. I have family in Israel. I have cousins in the service. It's quite personal for me but I think if I was a Christian, I'd feel the same. It's a terrible injustice done to the Jews and it's getting worse instead of better.
It makes me super happy we have heavy fire power. Without it, it would be another Holocaust. It's never going to happen again.
| 163 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:12:19pm |
re: #157 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually we can. It is high time we fight to win. War is ugly.
Win what, though? What's the end goal of the war?
| 164 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:13:54pm |
re: #163 Obdicut
Win what, though? What's the end goal of the war?
Same goal as any war, that the enemy fully surrenders.
| 165 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:14:46pm |
re: #164 Buck
Same goal as any war, that the enemy fully surrenders.
That's not actually the goal of every war, Buck.
But even if it is: Who is the enemy in this case?
| 166 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:16:58pm |
re: #163 Obdicut
Win what, though? What's the end goal of the war?
We could start with installation of a government willing to sign a peace treaty with Israel, one that will not turn blind eye to terror and a government that is committed to living side by side with Israel in peace.
Perhaps we might hope for a government that will not tolerate or countenance institutionalized bigotry, racism and hate in schools, media or from religious pulpits and soapboxes.
Just a thought.
| 167 |
NervyNews Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:18:27pm |
re: #17 marjoriemoon
Sorry for not warning about blood. Also, the guy pictured is not dead and hopefully survives.
Check this out:- What are the odds? One of the many people wounded in the bombing in Jerusalem on today was also wounded in a terrorist attack eight years earlier.
| 168 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:18:41pm |
re: #166 researchok
We could start with installation of a government willing to sign a peace treaty with Israel,
How do you achieve that through military action?
Perhaps we might hope for a government that will not tolerate or countenance institutionalized bigotry, racism and hate in schools, media or from religious pulpits and soapboxes.
How do you achieve that through military action?
And to be clear-- are you talking about Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, Oman, Bahrain, etc. etc. here? Because those qualities are as much present there as in Palestine.
| 169 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:19:29pm |
re: #165 Obdicut
That's not actually the goal of every war, Buck.
But even if it is: Who is the enemy in this case?
In this case multiple enemies. Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah....
IMO, cease fire agreements are immoral, and only extend war and make for more deaths. War is only truly ended when one side gives up. Very few wars really end until one side wins.
| 170 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:19:59pm |
re: #161 Darlington
Okay. Let's not talk about examples of terrorism. We're both against that.
You're talking about an entire people in general. I'm getting that you think the typical Palestinian Muslim living in the West Bank or elsewhere is guilty of supporting terror? Do you? Simple question here.
Well?
| 171 |
iossarian Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:20:50pm |
re: #166 researchok
Perhaps we might hope for a government that will not tolerate or countenance institutionalized bigotry, racism and hate in schools, media or from religious pulpits and soapboxes.
You've just made the case for government restriction of freedom of speech in the interest of combating bigotry (a position with which I am sympathetic).
| 172 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:20:53pm |
re: #169 Buck
So you want Israel to have a war, a total war until unconditional surrender, with the rest of the Middle East?
| 173 |
iossarian Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:21:23pm |
re: #169 Buck
In this case multiple enemies. Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah...
IMO, cease fire agreements are immoral, and only extend war and make for more deaths. War is only truly ended when one side gives up. Very few wars really end until one side wins.
Northern Ireland being the exception?
| 174 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:21:32pm |
re: #170 Darlington
Well?
Dude, since you dodge questions left and right in every thread, you calling out other people for not answering your questions is hilarious jack-assery on your part.
Fucking laughable.
| 175 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:23:04pm |
re: #161 Darlington
Okay. Let's not talk about examples of terrorism. We're both against that.
You're talking about an entire people in general. I'm getting that you think the typical Palestinian Muslim living in the West Bank or elsewhere is guilty of supporting terror? Do you? Simple question here.
Yes, I do. I didn't used to, but my mind has changed about it.
There's an excellent documentary here, called Tiny Piece of Land. If you're in LA, you might be able to catch it. I have not seen it, but heard great things.
[Link: www.picoplayhouse.com...]
It's a documentary where a team of Israeli doctors rescue an Arab woman and her infant son from the territories. Her baby has an immune deficiency disease and will not survive if he doesn't receive a bone marrow transplant which he cannot get in Gaza. True story, btw.
Lots of drama, apparently, including a lot of confusion from the woman about why the Jews want to save her baby in the first place.
At one point, they ask her if she will ever send her son on a suicide mission. She responds by saying something to the effect, "If he grows up and wants to do that, I won't stop him." The director wanted to cancel the project on the spot, but was convinced to keep going.
I don't know how it ends up, but this a real story about real people in a very real and raw situation. I'm hoping they bring it to Miami.
| 176 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:23:48pm |
re: #161 Darlington
You're talking about an entire people in general. I'm getting that you think the typical Palestinian Muslim living in the West Bank or elsewhere is guilty of supporting terror? Do you? Simple question here.
With very few and far between exceptions, there is no evidence to show that the typical (majority) Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank does NOT support terrorism against jews.
| 177 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:24:59pm |
re: #174 Obdicut
I don't try to dodge questions. It's just that people tend to throw out dozens of questions at me at the same time.
| 178 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:26:04pm |
re: #167 GNIDAthe#seCond
Sorry for not warning about blood. Also, the guy pictured is not dead and hopefully survives.
Check this out:- What are the odds? One of the many people wounded in the bombing in Jerusalem on today was also wounded in a terrorist attack eight years earlier.
It's probably not so unusual giving the area isn't all that big and the attacks are usually in the same areas.
| 179 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:26:21pm |
re: #172 Obdicut
So you want Israel to have a war, a total war until unconditional surrender, with the rest of the Middle East?
I would have liked that much earlier of course. But yes. Each conflict we have been in since '48 ended without a resolution, and meant that it was extended to today.
| 180 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:26:51pm |
re: #169 Buck
IMO, cease fire agreements are immoral, and only extend war and make for more deaths. War is only truly ended when one side gives up. Very few wars really end until one side wins.
Er, you are aware of the many, many wars throughout history that have ended with treaties and not unconditional surrender, right?
| 181 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:27:08pm |
re: #168 Obdicut
How do you achieve that through military action?
How do you achieve that through military action?
And to be clear-- are you talking about Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, Oman, Bahrain, etc. etc. here? Because those qualities are as much present there as in Palestine.
Same way we cleaned out the Nazis. Make supporting them a losing proposition.
| 182 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:27:09pm |
re: #161 Darlington
Okay. Let's not talk about examples of terrorism. We're both against that.
You're talking about an entire people in general. I'm getting that you think the typical Palestinian Muslim living in the West Bank or elsewhere is guilty of supporting terror? Do you? Simple question here.
They voted in a terrorist gang to run their government. That enough for me to know that most of them support terrorism.
| 183 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:27:53pm |
re: #179 Buck
I would have liked that much earlier of course. But yes. Each conflict we have been in since '48 ended without a resolution, and meant that it was extended to today.
You seriously advocate Israel fighting to subdue the entire rest of the Middle East?
Does it bother you that Israel wouldn't win? Or do you think other nations should join with Israel in this third World War?
| 185 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:28:20pm |
re: #177 Darlington
I don't try to dodge questions. It's just that people tend to throw out dozens of questions at me at the same time.
For someone who doesn't try, you're amazingly fucking good at it.
| 186 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:28:42pm |
re: #168 Obdicut
How do you achieve that through military action?
How do you achieve that through military action?
And to be clear-- are you talking about Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, Oman, Bahrain, etc. etc. here? Because those qualities are as much present there as in Palestine.
To be clear, I was only talking about the Palestinians.
| 187 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:30:04pm |
re: #186 researchok
To be clear, I was only talking about the Palestinians.
Okay. That doesn't really answer the question, then, since, first of all, you're not explaining how such a government can come about through Israeli military action, and, second of all, how that will end Israel's problems, since they will still be surrounded by hostile states that fund terrorism and propaganda against them.
| 188 |
Feline Fearless Leader Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:30:15pm |
re: #180 Obdicut
Er, you are aware of the many, many wars throughout history that have ended with treaties and not unconditional surrender, right?
I'd say that the number of unconditional surrenders ending wars are greatly outnumbered by ones with negotiated endings, truces, etc.
Fighting to the last ditch is generally due to uncommon fanaticism, or being faced with a situation where quitting is viewed as worse than dying to defend home and hearth. And that is often due to the conflict actively being viewed as one of annihilation - one has been backed into a corner and has no choice beyond selecting method of dying; passively or fighting tooth and nail.
| 189 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:31:00pm |
A Palestinian writer who gets it, writer Mudar Zahran.
[Link: www.hudson-ny.org...]
| 190 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:32:34pm |
re: #182 NJDhockeyfan
They voted in a terrorist gang to run their government. That enough for me to know that most of them support terrorism.
That's tarring an entire nation with the guilt of the minority that voted said gang into power.
| 191 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:32:48pm |
re: #185 Obdicut
For someone who doesn't try, you're amazingly fucking good at it.
I'm guessing that's not a compliment.
| 192 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:34:59pm |
re: #190 Darlington
That's tarring an entire nation with the guilt of the minority that voted said gang into power.
The said gang would not be able to achieve and maintain power if they were a tiny, marginalized minority.
| 193 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:35:44pm |
re: #191 Darlington
Nope. You make arguments that are often so hyperbolic you make me thing you're a troll designed to make leftists look bad. You dodge questions-- even to the point of answering one question in a post, but not another one-- and your only excuse is that people are asking you a lot of questions. Most of the time your arguments are simple assertions, with no actual argument made.
It's not impressive.
| 194 |
dubi Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:36:04pm |
Interesting. On Israeli tv news they're playing a recording of a man reporting to the police a suspicious object in Jerusalem today. As he's reporting it, it detonates.
| 196 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:38:04pm |
re: #195 Obdicut
You mean a second bomb just went off?
What he's saying is that an alert citizen reported a "hefetz hashood" just moments before it detonated.
| 198 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:38:20pm |
re: #163 Obdicut
Win what, though? What's the end goal of the war?
The goal of any war. To secure the land and break the will of the enemy to fight. This is accomplished by killing enough of them that they seek alternatives.
It worked great on Germany and Japan.
| 199 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:38:21pm |
re: #187 Obdicut
Okay. That doesn't really answer the question, then, since, first of all, you're not explaining how such a government can come about through Israeli military action, and, second of all, how that will end Israel's problems, since they will still be surrounded by hostile states that fund terrorism and propaganda against them.
Make supporting Hamas and the PA too costly for the average Palestinian. The Palestinians will either find a new government from within or a someone who will take the bull by the horns.
As for the other states, they are dealing with problems of their own at the moment- and Israel isn't a really big part of the problem.
In any event, one day at a time.
Wars usually end with the disproportionate use of force.
| 200 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:39:03pm |
re: #198 LudwigVanQuixote
The goal of any war. To secure the land and break the will of the enemy to fight. This is accomplished by killing enough of them that they seek alternatives.
It worked great on Germany and Japan.
I like that subtle and nuanced way of yours.
| 201 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:39:36pm |
re: #183 Obdicut
You seriously advocate Israel fighting to subdue the entire rest of the Middle East?
Does it bother you that Israel wouldn't win? Or do you think other nations should join with Israel in this third World War?
I do think that other nations should join in, yes. If you believed that Israel has an unconditional right to this land, then I think you would as well.
YES, in 1967 for example, there was a chance to force peace with the entire arab middle east. The cease fire agreement only extended the war, it did not end it.
| 202 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:39:44pm |
IN fact, lets, be clear. The automated system is a first step. Ratcheting up from that is cutting off their power and water for the duration of hostilities.
| 203 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:40:03pm |
re: #190 Darlington
That's tarring an entire nation with the guilt of the minority that voted said gang into power.
First, Hamas won an election handily, although they have not bothered to have another election since then.
Secondly, that's true, but unimportant. The issue of exactly how many Palestinians-in-the-street really support Hamas or Fatah, really support terror, really hate all Jews, is infinitely fascinating to some people, but it's something of a red herring in terms of political and military matters. Israel cannot deal with Mrs. Salwa al-Misri on an individual basis, they have to deal with political parties, and groups in power.
| 204 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:40:45pm |
| 205 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:41:35pm |
re: #202 LudwigVanQuixote
IN fact, lets, be clear. The automated system is a first step. Ratcheting up from that is cutting off their power and water for the duration of hostilities.
Wars end when the cist of waging war becomes too high to bear.
"Men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other options"- Abba Eban.
| 206 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:41:49pm |
re: #190 Darlington
That's tarring an entire nation with the guilt of the minority that voted said gang into power.
They won by a landslide. They ran on a we kill more Jews campaign. The eople democratically voted for war. It is only from the restraint of Israel they have not been given one.
| 207 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:42:12pm |
re: #205 researchok
Wars end when the cist of waging war becomes too high to bear.
"Men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other options"- Abba Eban.
Exactly.
| 208 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:42:41pm |
re: #198 LudwigVanQuixote
The goal of any war. To secure the land and break the will of the enemy to fight. This is accomplished by killing enough of them that they seek alternatives.
It worked great on Germany and Japan.
The enemy is not just the Palestinians, though. It is basically the rest of the Middle East.
Even if all of Palestine was conquered and every Palestinian either expelled or a good Israeli citizen, the attacks on Israel would continue. They might be less severe, they might not be-- the bordering Arab states might, if Israel had fully annexed Palestine, be more than happy to provide self-haven for those mortars and rockets. Hell, they might finally create a new Palestine, just for that purpose.
| 209 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:43:42pm |
re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist
I'd like to add something here. Marjorie is talking about sympathy. She's out of it. I'm damn close.
Does this mean that we don't understand that not all Palestinians have the moral standing of Hamas? No, it doesn't. We get that. But as an American Jew, I have to tell you, I'm exhausted. This goes on, with no hope in sight, the number of the dead that I carry around in my soul goes up, and every time another horror like this bus bombing, like Itamar, like the dozens and hundreds that came before it, long before the State of Israel even existed, then a good chunk of the world promptly screams that Israel had it coming, that any response is disproportionate, and I am once again asked to be the bigger person, and understand the humanity of a society that denies mine.
I'm tired. Damn tired. And I don't even live in Israel. Consider this.
Damn Straight!
| 210 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:44:36pm |
re: #208 Obdicut
The enemy is not just the Palestinians, though. It is basically the rest of the Middle East.
Even if all of Palestine was conquered and every Palestinian either expelled or a good Israeli citizen, the attacks on Israel would continue. They might be less severe, they might not be-- the bordering Arab states might, if Israel had fully annexed Palestine, be more than happy to provide self-haven for those mortars and rockets. Hell, they might finally create a new Palestine, just for that purpose.
Ohh but they would be fewer and further between. The Palestinians are the problem they are because the Arab nations had direct conflict knocked out of them.
| 211 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:45:47pm |
re: #201 Buck
I do think that other nations should join in, yes. If you believed that Israel has an unconditional right to this land, then I think you would as well.
I don't think the phrase "Israel has an unconditional right to this land" makes any sense. I think Israel is a completely valid state, and a democracy, and deserves to exist and survive. I think it is much more valid than the failed Palestinian state.
You do realize this would become World War, right? If the US were to join Israel in attacking every other Middle Eastern nation, China and Russia would not remain on the sidelines. Even if they did not, what is your plan for these nations after you conquer them?
| 212 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:46:14pm |
re: #210 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohh but they would be fewer and further between. The Palestinians are the problem they are because the Arab nations had direct conflict knocked out of them - and use the Palis as a proxy. I am talking about taking chess pieces off the board. IF the Palis loose the will to fight, then the others either must contend directly, in a war they will loose, or they must find other ways.
| 213 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:46:17pm |
re: #208 Obdicut
The enemy is not just the Palestinians, though. It is basically the rest of the Middle East.
Even if all of Palestine was conquered and every Palestinian either expelled or a good Israeli citizen, the attacks on Israel would continue. They might be less severe, they might not be-- the bordering Arab states might, if Israel had fully annexed Palestine, be more than happy to provide self-haven for those mortars and rockets. Hell, they might finally create a new Palestine, just for that purpose.
Actually that is exactly what they did. Create the Palestinians. Israel could not have annexed Palestine, as there was no such country or land.
The Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” and only came into Israeli possession as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all massed forces at Israel’s border in order to “push the Jews into the sea”?
A great majority of that land has been given back, but only to countries who have made peace with Israel.
| 214 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:47:04pm |
re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist
First, Hamas won an election handily, although they have not bothered to have another election since then.
Secondly, that's true, but unimportant. The issue of exactly how many Palestinians-in-the-street really support Hamas or Fatah, really support terror, really hate all Jews, is infinitely fascinating to some people, but it's something of a red herring in terms of political and military matters. Israel cannot deal with Mrs. Salwa al-Misri on an individual basis, they have to deal with political parties, and groups in power.
I don't think the election thing is a good measure of much. It was orchestrated by Bush and Abbas for the most part to separate Hamas from Fatah so Fatah could massacre the lot of them. And we and Israel would only have to deal with the P.A.... a less violent alternative.
Unfortunately it didn't work out that way, but not half bad a plan.
Besides, Cuba had an election too. Did you know that 99% of Cubans voted for Castro! It's true!
Iran had elections too!
Elections, shmelections.
| 215 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:47:29pm |
re: #210 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohh but they would be fewer and further between. The Palestinians are the problem they are because the Arab nations had direct conflict knocked out of them.
They might be fewer. They might be more intense than ever, coming from the Palestinian refugee camps, from fanatics able to triumphantly say "See, we knew the Jews would annex all the land in the end", etc.
It is facile to say that it would reduce the number of attacks. It might. It might not.
| 216 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:48:29pm |
re: #212 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohh but they would be fewer and further between. The Palestinians are the problem they are because the Arab nations had direct conflict knocked out of them - and use the Palis as a proxy. I am talking about taking chess pieces off the board. IF the Palis loose the will to fight, then the others either must contend directly, in a war they will loose, or they must find other ways.
The Palestinians have been kept going on charity, big promises, and the fact that they can't get out of the region.
| 217 |
What, me worry? Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:49:42pm |
re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist
First, Hamas won an election handily, although they have not bothered to have another election since then.
Secondly, that's true, but unimportant. The issue of exactly how many Palestinians-in-the-street really support Hamas or Fatah, really support terror, really hate all Jews, is infinitely fascinating to some people, but it's something of a red herring in terms of political and military matters. Israel cannot deal with Mrs. Salwa al-Misri on an individual basis, they have to deal with political parties, and groups in power.
I'm sorry. Very good point, nonetheless (meant to add that heh).
| 219 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:50:18pm |
re: #193 Obdicut
Nope. You make arguments that are often so hyperbolic you make me thing you're a troll designed to make leftists look bad. You dodge questions-- even to the point of answering one question in a post, but not another one-- and your only excuse is that people are asking you a lot of questions. Most of the time your arguments are simple assertions, with no actual argument made.
It's not impressive.
Whatever, but I don't think half a dozen people are demanding you to answer questions. I've tried to state my opinion without being accused of ignoring any replies. But clearly that hasn't worked.
I appreciate that you might disagree with me, but I do ask that you don't accuse me of being a troll or a dodger of questions. Thanks.
BTW: I have nothing against you. I don't think I disagree with you on everything, and indeed have up-rated several of your posts.
| 220 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:50:23pm |
re: #214 marjoriemoon
I don't think the election thing is a good measure of much. It was orchestrated by Bush and Abbas for the most part to separate Hamas from Fatah so Fatah could massacre the lot of them. And we and Israel would only have to deal with the P.A... a less violent alternative.
Unfortunately it didn't work out that way, but not half bad a plan.
Besides, Cuba had an election too. Did you know that 99% of Cubans voted for Castro! It's true!
Iran had elections too!
Elections, shmelections.
Hamas was elected, alright and they made no secret about what they stood for and what their plans were.
Being elected does not confer legitimacy on the winner.
Hitler came to power by manipulating the democratic electoral process.
| 221 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:50:58pm |
re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist
The Palestinians have been kept going on charity, big promises, and the fact that they can't get out of the region.
Who keeps the Palestinians in refugee camps? There are "refugee camps" in Gaza and in the PA-controlled areas of the West Bank--specifically where they keep people who demand a "right of return" into pre-1967 Israel. There people are not allowed to move out of the "refugee" camps into other areas of Gaza or the PA.
| 222 |
dubi Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:51:01pm |
Here is the recording of the man reporting a suspicious object today in Jerusalen when the suspicious object detonates. The video was recoded later. In other words there is no time connection between what you see and hear. Also, it's in Hebrew.
| 223 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:52:09pm |
re: #215 Obdicut
They might be fewer. They might be more intense than ever, coming from the Palestinian refugee camps, from fanatics able to triumphantly say "See, we knew the Jews would annex all the land in the end", etc.
It is facile to say that it would reduce the number of attacks. It might. It might not.
Then you crush those camps until it stops.
IT is not facile. It is about ending the status quo of attrition and attack after attack. IN the long run it will save more lives and force the Palis to actually join the modern world. There is no way to make it pretty. War is not pretty.
| 224 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:52:47pm |
re: #211 Obdicut
I don't think the phrase "Israel has an unconditional right to this land" makes any sense. I think Israel is a completely valid state, and a democracy, and deserves to exist and survive. I think it is much more valid than the failed Palestinian state.
You do realize this would become World War, right? If the US were to join Israel in attacking every other Middle Eastern nation, China and Russia would not remain on the sidelines. Even if they did not, what is your plan for these nations after you conquer them?
In 1967, and 1973 Russia and China did not send troops.
I do not accept your theory that it would be a world war. The enemy has never shown that kind resilience.
| 225 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:53:23pm |
re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist
The Palestinians have been kept going on charity, big promises, and the fact that they can't get out of the region.
The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don’t give a damn whether the refugees live or die. (Ralph Galloway, UNRWA, as quoted by Terence Prittie in The Palestinians: People, History, Politics, p 71)
| 226 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:55:13pm |
re: #220 researchok
Hamas was elected, alright and they made no secret about what they stood for and what their plans were.
Being elected does not confer legitimacy on the winner.
Hitler came to power by manipulating the democratic electoral process.
And there is no reason to believe that the German (and even Austrian) people did not support him.
| 227 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:56:38pm |
Palestinian legislative election, 2006
Hamas won 44.45% of the vote in elections. 44% isn't a massive majority.
Massive majority of seats doesn't necessarily confer a massive majority of votes.
Party | Hamas | Fatah
Popular vote | 440,409 |410,554
Percentage | 44.45% | 41.43%
| 228 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:56:58pm |
"Occupations are ended when there is peace. We did not leave Germany or Japan before they had secure and democratic governments and were well on their way to building productive societies. We are staying the course in Iraq until a government can prove it’s inclusiveness and stability, and we will not leave until violence is subdued by Iraq troops, if not entirely ended.
The Israelis are being asked to end their occupation of territory won in a succession of wars they did not want or ask for, before any promise or guarantee of peace with her neighbors. Indeed, Palestinian factions and the Arabs nations who support and encourage them are promising more violence and the ‘slaughter of Jews’ in the future. The lessons learned- or not learned, is that in the Arab world, wars can be started and lost with impunity, and that there are no negative consequences for such behavior. The Arab world has learned that civilized behaviors and exchanges among nations are irrelevant"
The Arab hatred of Jews began long before the establishment of the State of Israel. Jew hatred will still be an integral part of Arab identity and a necessary component of the Arab psyche, because hatred of Jews in their collective mind explains their total dysfunction and inability to launch in the civilized world. There is no arena in which the Arabs have made a positive contribution to the betterment of mankind."
| 229 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:57:23pm |
re: #213 Buck
That's great, Buck, but it has little to do with my actual point. re: #219 Darlington
I appreciate that you might disagree with me, but I do ask that you don't accuse me of being a troll or a dodger of questions. Thanks.
You do dodge questions, though. You may say that it's simply because a lot of people are asking them, but that doesn't actually make any sense. You still are choosing not to answer some of them. And they usually are the ones that are the most problematic for you to answer.
I've yet to see you make an actual argument, beyond just a reflexive assertion. Until you do, I'm not really going to have any respect for you.
| 230 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:58:50pm |
re: #223 LudwigVanQuixote
Then you crush those camps until it stops.
IT is not facile. It is about ending the status quo of attrition and attack after attack. IN the long run it will save more lives and force the Palis to actually join the modern world. There is no way to make it pretty. War is not pretty.
Then new camps spring up in new areas. And lo and behold, you have another war of attrition going on.
War is not pretty. Neither is, unfortunately, the realities of the world. War, even a crushingly successful war, does not mean that the winning nation gets to decide what the future holds.
| 231 |
lostlakehiker Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:59:03pm |
re: #161 Darlington
Okay. Let's not talk about examples of terrorism. We're both against that.
You're talking about an entire people in general. I'm getting that you think the typical Palestinian Muslim living in the West Bank or elsewhere is guilty of supporting terror? Do you? Simple question here.
Flashback to September 2001.
In Iran, there was a brief candlelight vigil for the victims of 911, lasting until the police forcibly dispersed it.
In the West Bank, we have footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets and handing out candy.
| 232 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:59:26pm |
re: #230 Obdicut
Then new camps spring up in new areas. And lo and behold, you have another war of attrition going on.
War is not pretty. Neither is, unfortunately, the realities of the world. War, even a crushingly successful war, does not mean that the winning nation gets to decide what the future holds.
Tell that to Germany and Japan.
| 233 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:00:20pm |
re: #231 lostlakehiker
Flashback to September 2001.
In Iran, there was a brief candlelight vigil for the victims of 911, lasting until the police forcibly dispersed it.
In the West Bank, we have footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets and handing out candy.
AND most importantly there is no indication that anyone forced them to hand out candy. OR that anyone opposed the action.
| 234 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:00:35pm |
re: #221 Alouette
Who keeps the Palestinians in refugee camps? There are "refugee camps" in Gaza and in the PA-controlled areas of the West Bank--specifically where they keep people who demand a "right of return" into pre-1967 Israel. There people are not allowed to move out of the "refugee" camps into other areas of Gaza or the PA.
Excellent point.
| 235 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:01:05pm |
re: #226 Buck
And there is no reason to believe that the German (and even Austrian) people did not support him.
If they did not, what would it have changed?
| 236 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:01:57pm |
re: #232 LudwigVanQuixote
Tell that to Germany and Japan.
That there have been good results does not mean good results always occur. There are reasons for Japan and Germany's success not present in the Arab states.
| 237 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:02:01pm |
re: #227 Darlington
Palestinian legislative election, 2006
Hamas won 44.45% of the vote in elections. 44% isn't a massive majority.
Massive majority of seats doesn't necessarily confer a massive majority of votes.
OK. They won by 44%. What does this prove or show? They control Gaza, and will for the foreseeable future.
| 238 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:02:32pm |
re: #228 researchok
Honestly, I am all for sending the Egyptians of Gaza back to Egypt and the Jordanians of the West Bank of Jordan back to Jordan. They were a gift to us from the Arab world. I say regift it.
And yes, I am talking about the forcible expulsion of millions.
| 239 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:02:44pm |
re: #229 Obdicut
When you say If "Israel had fully annexed Palestine", you are reciting their version of history.
| 240 |
beartiger Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:03:15pm |
Are Palestinian terror gangs running out of dupes willing to commit suicide to perpetrate mass murder?
For as long as human beings are human beings and religion (and religious-like ideologies) holds sway, there will be no end to such dupes, in my opinion.
| 241 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:03:19pm |
re: #236 Obdicut
That there have been good results does not mean good results always occur. There are reasons for Japan and Germany's success not present in the Arab states.
Fine. It would still be better than the current state of affairs if only because those whowould fight will be fewer in number by dint of being dead.
| 242 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:04:25pm |
re: #238 LudwigVanQuixote
Honestly, I am all for sending the Egyptians of Gaza back to Egypt and the Jordanians of the West Bank of Jordan back to Jordan. They were a gift to us from the Arab world. I say regift it.
And yes, I am talking about the forcible expulsion of millions.
Many arabs and muslims have chosen to live in Israel as good and productive citizens. I would like to extend that choice first.
| 244 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:05:33pm |
re: #237 SanFranciscoZionist
OK. They won by 44%. What does this prove or show? They control Gaza, and will for the foreseeable future.
Seriously, this is my basic question to you. If I concede the point you are hammering on, that there are Palestinian civilians, perhaps lots, who aren't terrorists, don't like the extremists, and just want peace, love and understanding, what does this change about the present situation? Why is it important from a political perspective?
| 245 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:05:40pm |
re: #242 Buck
Many arabs and muslims have chosen to live in Israel as good and productive citizens. I would like to extend that choice first.
Indeed hence the discussion of the West Bank and Gaza and not Israel proper..
| 246 |
Ericus58 Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:06:02pm |
re: #227 Darlington
Palestinian legislative election, 2006
Hamas won 44.45% of the vote in elections. 44% isn't a massive majority.
Massive majority of seats doesn't necessarily confer a massive majority of votes.
Dude - neither of those two groups are Partners in Peace for Israel.
Fact.
| 247 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:06:14pm |
re: #242 Buck
Many arabs and muslims have chosen to live in Israel as good and productive citizens. I would like to extend that choice first.
Right of Return?
;)
| 248 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:06:38pm |
re: #230 Obdicut
even a crushingly successful war, does not mean that the winning nation gets to decide what the future holds.
Actually that is exactly what happens.
| 249 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:07:40pm |
re: #238 LudwigVanQuixote
Honestly, I am all for sending the Egyptians of Gaza back to Egypt and the Jordanians of the West Bank of Jordan back to Jordan. They were a gift to us from the Arab world. I say regift it.
And yes, I am talking about the forcible expulsion of millions.
Stones my ass. You got watermelons.
While I don't believe that will happen, if the Palestinians believe the Israelis have reached the end of their rope, they will back down.
One Arab writer years ago noted that Palestinian kids throw rocks at Israelis because they know the Israelis won't fire back. Change that reality and Palestinian moms will keep their kids indoors.
| 250 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:09:16pm |
re: #245 LudwigVanQuixote
Indeed hence the discussion of the West Bank and Gaza and not Israel proper..
Think of the Swiss model- it can take 2 or 3 generations before citizenship is granted.
Misbehave and back you go.
| 251 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:09:23pm |
re: #249 researchok
Stones my ass. You got watermelons.
While I don't believe that will happen, if the Palestinians believe the Israelis have reached the end of their rope, they will back down.
One Arab writer years ago noted that Palestinian kids throw rocks at Israelis because they know the Israelis won't fire back. Change that reality and Palestinian moms will keep their kids indoors.
Indeed.
| 252 |
lawhawk Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:09:45pm |
re: #227 Darlington
Break that out by who won the majority in Gaza versus who won in the West Bank and abroad. By geography, except for a few enclaves, the "Change and Reform" - which was Hamas, won the elections handily.
Fatah won a majority in only Rafah (the Gaza district adjacent to Sinai), Jericho (West Bank), and Qaliylia (West Bank north of Jerusalem). Jenin was a split between Hamas and Fatah.
This map from 2007 shows population density for Gaza.
The proportional election system meant that Hamas won 75 seats versus the 45 seats Fatah won (popular vote was 440k v. 410k).
| 253 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:10:36pm |
re: #237 SanFranciscoZionist
OK. They won by 44%. What does this prove or show? They control Gaza, and will for the foreseeable future.
This proves that 66% of Palestinians are against Hamas.
| 254 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:11:26pm |
re: #253 Darlington
This proves that 66% of Palestinians are against Hamas.
Er, 56. That was a major fail.
| 255 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:11:44pm |
| 256 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:12:52pm |
re: #253 Darlington
This proves that 66% of Palestinians are against Hamas.
And that does not mean that 66% does not support terrorism against Israel.
Only the most naive trust Fatah to be any different than the PA they came from.
| 257 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:13:09pm |
re: #252 lawhawk
Break that out by who won the majority in Gaza versus who won in the West Bank and abroad. By geography, except for a few enclaves, the "Change and Reform" - which was Hamas, won the elections handily.
Fatah won a majority in only Rafah (the Gaza district adjacent to Sinai), Jericho (West Bank), and Qaliylia (West Bank north of Jerusalem). Jenin was a split between Hamas and Fatah.
This map from 2007 shows population density for Gaza.
The proportional election system meant that Hamas won 75 seats versus the 45 seats Fatah won (popular vote was 440k v. 410k).
The point isn't the proportion of seats won, or the breakdown of votes by region. Yes, Hamas had a plurality in almost all regions. That's not the point. The point is that the Hamas landslide was the result of the parliamentary system which you noted in your last sentence.
I'm not saying that Hamas didn't win a landslide, I'm saying that Hamas didn't get a majority of votes.
| 258 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:13:20pm |
re: #241 LudwigVanQuixote
Fine. It would still be better than the current state of affairs if only because those whowould fight will be fewer in number by dint of being dead.
That's not at all necessarily true. The numbers of those willing to fight might also grow. There's really not much of a shortage.
| 259 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:13:53pm |
Peace among nations is arrived at when the cost of war becomes ovewhelming. Racism, bigotry and hate are overcome when the cost of racism, bigotry and hate becomes too great for a society to bear.As long as nations and peoples perceive the cost of war as acceptable, then we will have war, racism, bigotry and hate.
It interesting to note that the hate directed at Israel and Jews is never referred to as ‘disproportionate.’ It is also true that the lopsided voting record against Israel by the United Nations Human Rights Commission (an assembly that includes some of the most oppressive and failed nation-states in the world) is never referred to as ‘disproportionate’ despite the admonition of three successive United Nations Secretaries- General. The same applies to United Nations General Assembly, now a forum for over the top racism, bigotry and hate- none of which seems to qualify as ‘disproportionate.’
None of the institutionalized hate and bigotry of the Arab world is ‘disproportionate.’ In fact, the Arabs will tell you that there are not enough calls to genocide and there is not enough hate and racism directed at Israel and Jews. In schools, media and from the pulpit, calls for genocide, bigotry and hate are considered ‘proportionate’ and reasonable.
The NGO’s for whom anti Jewish and anti Israel sentiment are daily bread, compete with other over who is more anti Jewish and more anti Israel, taking pride in their ‘originality’ or ablity to pass that hate as rational and reasoned.
The psychotic Arab media routinely whip themselves and their readers/viewers into a frenzy, denying the Holocaust as a ‘Jewish plot’ on the one hand while promising another very real holocaust a few moments later, in the same breath. Tales of outrageous Jewish conspiracies are sandwiched by pronouncements that Muslims are strategizing and will soon control the world and the destiny of all mankind.
I only wish the Arab world liberation from the evil men who have created their hell on earth.
| 260 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:14:16pm |
re: #248 Buck
Actually that is exactly what happens.
No, it doesn't, Buck. You can't control the future destiny of a nation because you conquered it. You can try. But France and England didn't mean to create Nazi Germany.
| 261 |
lawhawk Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:15:29pm |
re: #253 Darlington
Check your math for starters (it's 56%, not 66% -or else you end up with 110%).
Then, there's the fact that 56% were not opposed to Hamas because they were a terror group. For a percentage that didn't vote for Hamas or Fatah, it was because they didn't go far enough in their violence towards Israel.
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine got ~4% of the vote.
The other parties included portions of the PLO that didn't go along with Fatah.
| 262 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:15:40pm |
re: #250 researchok
Think of the Swiss model- it can take 2 or 3 generations before citizenship is granted.
Misbehave and back you go.
Send them to the nearest Arab or Muslim country.... Don't wait for permission, just drop them off.... (ok from 5000 feet).
/
| 263 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:15:42pm |
re: #253 Darlington
This proves that 66% of Palestinians are against Hamas.
Lack of voting for them doesn't mean they were against them. Why on earth would you assert that it does?
| 264 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:15:56pm |
May the L-rd remember the souls
of the fighters of the Israel Defense Force
who gave their lives
for the sanctification of the Name, the People, and the Land;
who died a heroic death
in missions of liberation, defense and security.
They were quicker than eagles and stronger than lions
as they volunteered to assist the people
and with their pure blood soaked
the clods of our holy earth.
The memory of their self-sacrifice
and heroic deeds
will never perish from us.
May their souls be bound in the Bond of Life
together with the souls of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
and with the souls of
the other Jewish heroes and martyrs who are in the Garden of Eden.
Now let us respond: Amen.
| 265 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:16:21pm |
re: #258 Obdicut
That's not at all necessarily true. The numbers of those willing to fight might also grow. There's really not much of a shortage.
Depends on how many bullets you are willing to use.
| 266 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:18:37pm |
re: #265 LudwigVanQuixote
Depends on how many bullets you are willing to use.
No, seriously, Ludwig. That's my point. You're just trading one war of attrition for another one, unless you really think that Israel should go off and militarily subdue other Middle Eastern nations. Then you're trading a war of attrition for World War III.
| 267 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:18:50pm |
re: #260 Obdicut
No, it doesn't, Buck. You can't control the future destiny of a nation because you conquered it. You can try. But France and England didn't mean to create Nazi Germany.
By allowing them to militarize, and then not taking them seriously when they threatened war? I think they did. Lesson learned, and Germany will never rise up again to threaten the world.
| 268 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:19:44pm |
re: #253 Darlington
This proves that 66% of Palestinians are against Hamas.
Actually, it proves that 66% of Palestinians voted for another political party. When I vote for the Democrats it does not means I am 'against' the Republican Party. But OK, where does this get us? How should that fact influence Israel's actions as Hamas uses the territory they control to ramp up attacks on Israel?
| 269 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:19:58pm |
| 270 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:20:44pm |
re: #266 Obdicut
No, seriously, Ludwig. That's my point. You're just trading one war of attrition for another one, unless you really think that Israel should go off and militarily subdue other Middle Eastern nations. Then you're trading a war of attrition for World War III.
You assume that there would be a large number of nations that would support the Arab and Muslim side against the allies. I don't.
Yes the Russians and Chinese would be screaming for a cease fire, but fool me once, shame on you....
| 271 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:21:44pm |
re: #267 Buck
No, Buck. You don't actually think Britain and France wanted Nazi Germany to arise. That wasn't the result they wanted, a militarily aggressive, strong Germany.
I mean, I hope you don't think that. You don't really think what Britain and France wanted was a military power to attack them start another World War, do you?
| 272 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:22:01pm |
re: #266 Obdicut
No, seriously, Ludwig. That's my point. You're just trading one war of attrition for another one, unless you really think that Israel should go off and militarily subdue other Middle Eastern nations. Then you're trading a war of attrition for World War III.
No seriously this is my point. The Saudis and the Egyptians and the Syrians will not attack directly because they were beaten. They will run out of willing fighters before we run out of bullets. It means fighting to win.
| 273 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:22:14pm |
re: #270 Buck
They wouldn't give a shit about the Arab and Muslim side. They'd give a shit about the US and Israel conquering the nations where the oil is.
| 274 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:22:40pm |
| 275 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:24:33pm |
re: #274 Darlington
re: #263 Obdicut
Well, if they supported Hamas, they'd vote for Hamas, and not parties that are against Hamas such as Fatah.
I appreciate the fact that some of the small parties were even more radical, but then again some of the other small parties are also less radical than Fatah.
What is your understanding of why Fatah is 'against' Hamas?
| 276 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:24:37pm |
re: #272 LudwigVanQuixote
No seriously this is my point. The Saudis and the Egyptians and the Syrians will not attack directly because they were beaten. They will run out of willing fighters before we run out of bullets. It means fighting to win.
Yeah. They won't attack directly. But everywhere Israel has a border, they'll get attacked over it by rockets. They don't have any shortage of displaced peoples, refugees, and other desperate folk.
| 277 |
researchok Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:24:55pm |
re: #265 LudwigVanQuixote
Depends on how many bullets you are willing to use.
Wars end when the cost of waging war becomes to high.
| 278 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:25:15pm |
re: #274 Darlington
But that's not what you said. You claimed that a vote for anyone else was being against Hamas. That is eye-rollingly logically unsound.
| 279 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:26:27pm |
re: #275 SanFranciscoZionist
What is your understanding of why Fatah is 'against' Hamas?
Well, the deaths from the clashes between Fatah and Hamas supporters was my first clue.
| 280 |
Winny Spencer Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:28:32pm |
re: #147 Obdicut
What are you talking about?
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Bomb killed children. Baby died at the scene.
What is the huge difference?
Ok, fair point.
| 281 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:28:44pm |
re: #279 Darlington
Well, the deaths from the clashes between Fatah and Hamas supporters was my first clue.
Sure, they hate each other. They fight viciously for control of the area. But what do you understand the distinction between their platforms to be, and why is it so incredibly significant that 56 percent of Palestinians voted for another party?
You've carefully established that not all Palestinians are supporters of Hamas. What I'm trying to get to is what broader principle you're deriving from that.
| 282 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:30:20pm |
re: #271 Obdicut
No, Buck. You don't actually think Britain and France wanted Nazi Germany to arise. That wasn't the result they wanted, a militarily aggressive, strong Germany.
I mean, I hope you don't think that. You don't really think what Britain and France wanted was a military power to attack them start another World War, do you?
Fault and desire are two different things. Certainly I did not mean that they meant it to happen, but only that it was certainly their fault (Neville Chamberlain). The unintended consequence of peace at all costs.
| 283 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:33:20pm |
re: #281 SanFranciscoZionist
Sure, they hate each other. They fight viciously for control of the area. But what do you understand the distinction between their platforms to be, and why is it so incredibly significant that 56 percent of Palestinians voted for another party?
You've carefully established that not all Palestinians are supporters of Hamas. What I'm trying to get to is what broader principle you're deriving from that.
The principle I'm deriving from that is that the majority of people in Palestine are NOT Hamas supporters.
The argument was used on this thread that all or nearly all of the Palestinians were supporters of Hamas and therefore guilty of their crimes.
| 284 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:34:40pm |
re: #227 Darlington
Palestinian legislative election, 2006
Hamas won 44.45% of the vote in elections. 44% isn't a massive majority.
Massive majority of seats doesn't necessarily confer a massive majority of votes.
Party | Hamas | Fatah
Popular vote | 440,409 |410,554
Percentage | 44.45% | 41.43%
44.45 + 41.43 = 85.88
Fatah are as much of a terrorist organization as Hamas. This is like comparing the Crips vs the Bloods and 85.88% voted for both of the hate groups.
| 285 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:35:18pm |
re: #282 Buck
Please don't start just fucking up WWII history now, Buck. The rise of Nazi Germany cannot be placed solely at the feet of Neville Chamberlain, nor at the feet of desire for peace at any cost.
| 286 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:37:23pm |
re: #283 Darlington
The principle I'm deriving from that is that the majority of people in Palestine are NOT Hamas supporters.
The argument was used on this thread that all or nearly all of the Palestinians were supporters of Hamas and therefore guilty of their crimes.
No. That wasn't said. Hamas is not the only group fostering terror, and they are very far from the only group in Palestinian politics stalling the peace process.
| 287 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:37:50pm |
In Response to Rocket Fire, IAF Targets Terror Sites Across Gaza Strip
Posted on March 22, 2011 by Israel Defense Forces
Overnight, IAF aircraft targeted two terror tunnels, two weapons manufacturing and storage facilities and two additional terror activity sites across the Gaza Strip. Direct hits were confirmed.
The terror tunnels were intended for the infiltration of terrorists into Israeli territory and for the execution of terror attacks against Israeli civilians and IDF soldiers.
The targeting of these sites was in response to the barrage of mortar shells, Qassam and Grad rockets fired from Gaza at the Israeli home front over the past week.
Over 130 mortar shells, Qassam rockets and Grad rockets were fired from the Gaza Strip and landed in Israeli territory since the beginning of the year, 56 of which were fired just this week.
The IDF will not allow the Israeli southern communities to continue living under constant threat, and will respond with determination to any attempt to use terror against the citizens of Israel. The IDF holds the Hamas terrorist organization solely responsible for any terrorist activity emanating from the Gaza Strip.
The IDF warns Hamas not to continue its aggression.
| 288 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:37:54pm |
re: #285 Obdicut
Please don't start just fucking up WWII history now, Buck. The rise of Nazi Germany cannot be placed solely at the feet of Neville Chamberlain, nor at the feet of desire for peace at any cost.
But Chamberlain has been dead for seventy years, and makes such an easy target.
| 289 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:38:05pm |
| 290 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:43:18pm |
Lets go back in time....this is the kind of people Israel is living next to. How can peace happen when this is how they think?
Suicide Bombers' Mother Elected to Palestinian Parliament
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]
Mariam Farahat, who was elected to the Palestinian parliament, can work a crowd like a veteran politician -- shaking hands and greeting supporters. When she gets on the stage at a Hamas rally, she is the star attraction. She was one of Hamas' most popular candidates in Wednesday's election.
In Gaza, Farahat is known as Um Nidal, or Mother of the Struggle -- a mother who sent three of her six sons on Hamas suicide missions against Israeli targets.
"We consider it holy duty," she told ABC News. "Our land is occupied. You take all the means to banish the occupier. I sacrificed my children for this holy, patriotic duty. I love my children, but as Muslims we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedence to the personal interest."
She is most famous for her presence in a Hamas video, showing her 17-year-old how to attack Israelis and telling him not to return. Shortly afterward, he killed five students in a Jewish settlement before he was killed himself.
Um Nidal's home has become a shrine to her dead sons, with admirers and other members of Hamas often dropping by.
Um Nidal is not your typical Hamas candidate, but she does represent an extreme wing of the party -- one that is wildly popular despite being downplayed in this election.
"I had no desire to join the parliament or the political arena," she said. "It was enough ... the pride of jihad, and I found that I have to complete my social and political duty."
Destroying Israel is not something Hamas has promoted much during this election campaign. But at the grassroots level in Gaza, where Um Nidal campaigns, most Palestinian supporters believe it was the violent attacks against Israel that forced them to pull out from the Gaza Strip last fall.
"This is our strategy," she said. "We are working on two parallel lines -- the political and the jihadist."
Um Nidal is now a politician, but she says violence is still an option. And she does have three sons who are still alive. If necessary, she says, they will follow in their brothers' footsteps.
| 291 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:43:46pm |
re: #289 Obdicut
Dude, you said that it meant that many people were 'against' Hamas. That's what you actually said.
re: #253 Darlington
See?
Well, 41% voted for Fatah. It's not that much in doubt that Fatah aren't big fans of Hamas. Even if you accept that some of the 56% that didn't vote for Hamas did so because they are more radical than Hamas, the number will still come out to a majority. And of course, 100% of the population didn't turn out to vote.
| 292 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:47:36pm |
re: #291 Darlington
Well, 41% voted for Fatah. It's not that much in doubt that Fatah aren't big fans of Hamas. Even if you accept that some of the 56% that didn't vote for Hamas did so because they are more radical than Hamas, the number will still come out to a majority. And of course, 100% of the population didn't turn out to vote.
Who gives a fuck? Fatah is also an anti-Israel Jew-hating terrorist organization. The vast majority voted for them or Hamas. Their blood is running full of hate & violence. Why are you trying to defend that?
| 293 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:54:39pm |
re: #292 NJDhockeyfan
Who gives a fuck? Fatah is also an anti-Israel Jew-hating terrorist organization. The vast majority voted for them or Hamas. Their blood is running full of hate & violence. Why are you trying to defend that?
I already made my point above. People were claiming that all Palestinians supported the terrorist actions of Hamas.
| 294 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:55:25pm |
re: #292 NJDhockeyfan
Who gives a fuck? Fatah is also an anti-Israel Jew-hating terrorist organization. The vast majority voted for them or Hamas. Their blood is running full of hate & violence. Why are you trying to defend that?
Thank you. I was trying to figure out how to say that delicately. Apparently there is no way. So, yes, that.
| 295 |
Buck Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:57:42pm |
re: #285 Obdicut
Please don't start just fucking up WWII history now, Buck. The rise of Nazi Germany cannot be placed solely at the feet of Neville Chamberlain, nor at the feet of desire for peace at any cost.
Once again we disagree. I believe that the rise of an expansionist Germany could have been nipped in the bud if England, France and other countries had shown a united front and been very clear about the repercussions of any German military action outside of it's own border. Of course I feel that it should have been spelled out in the Treaty of Versailles.
It simply was not harsh enough to prevent Germany from becoming the dominant military continental power again.
But failing that, IMO turning a blind eye to Hitlers aggressive war actions over and over again directly allowed WW2 to happen.
Just as the world who keeps allowing the jihadist and their aggressive war actions over and over again will cause another war in the middle east.
| 296 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:59:46pm |
re: #290 NJDhockeyfan
That woman is disgusting.
| 297 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:03:23pm |
re: #294 SanFranciscoZionist
Thank you. I was trying to figure out how to say that delicately. Apparently there is no way. So, yes, that.
Again, I'm not defending Hamas or Fatah. I'm trying to attack the notion that all Palestinians are guilty of terrorism, and should be punished as such. Which seemed to be advocated by a handful of people here, such as marjoriemoon and LudwigVanQuixote.
I am not, in any way, endorsing Fatah or their policies.
| 298 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:03:50pm |
re: #294 SanFranciscoZionist
Thank you. I was trying to figure out how to say that delicately. Apparently there is no way. So, yes, that.
My pleasure. I had to get that off my chest.
:)
| 299 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:04:35pm |
I have to go do some work. Later lizards!
| 300 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:06:06pm |
re: #295 Buck
I believe that the rise of an expansionist Germany could have been nipped in the bud if England, France and other countries had shown a united front and been very clear about the repercussions of any German military action outside of it's own border.
This would have necessitated Britain and France having armed enough already to do that. Or to have actually not allowed Germany to develop armed forces. Or to release the stifling economic sanctions on Germany. Etc. etc.
It is not as simple as saying it was because of peace at all costs and Neville Chamberlain. Entire books are written about this. I'm sure you can't actually think you can sum up the cause of WWII that simply.
| 301 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:06:52pm |
re: #297 Darlington
Again, I'm not defending Hamas or Fatah. I'm trying to attack the notion that all Palestinians are guilty of terrorism, and should be punished as such. Which seemed to be advocated by a handful of people here, such as marjoriemoon and LudwigVanQuixote.
I am not, in any way, endorsing Fatah or their policies.
Great. Not all Palestinians are guilty of terrorism.
That point, laboriously established for the thousandth time, still doesn't get us anywhere.
| 302 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:07:34pm |
re: #297 Darlington
Again, I'm not defending Hamas or Fatah. I'm trying to attack the notion that all Palestinians are guilty of terrorism, and should be punished as such. Which seemed to be advocated by a handful of people here, such as marjoriemoon and LudwigVanQuixote.
I am not, in any way, endorsing Fatah or their policies.
Especially since the proof you've established seems to consist solely of many Palestinians not voting for Hamas.
| 303 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:07:56pm |
re: #301 SanFranciscoZionist
Great. Not all Palestinians are guilty of terrorism.
That point, laboriously established for the thousandth time, still doesn't get us anywhere.
Okay. So what rationale is there, then, for punishing the Palestinian people as a whole?
| 304 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:08:05pm |
re: #238 LudwigVanQuixote
Honestly, I am all for sending the Egyptians of Gaza back to Egypt and the Jordanians of the West Bank of Jordan back to Jordan. They were a gift to us from the Arab world. I say regift it.
And yes, I am talking about the forcible expulsion of millions.
Doubleplusungood, Ludwig.
I say, empty out the refugee camp hell holes, and resettle them in the countries where the camps are located.
| 305 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:10:10pm |
re: #293 Darlington
I already made my point above. People were claiming that all Palestinians supported the terrorist actions of Hamas.
In general, the support for rocket attacks against Israel fluctuates between 50 and 60% support in Palestine, with much higher numbers in Gaza.
I'm trying to attack the notion that all Palestinians are guilty of terrorism, and should be punished as such. Which seemed to be advocated by a handful of people here, such as marjoriemoon and LudwigVanQuixote.
Even when you had a decent point to make-- that Marjoriemoon had said that she considered all palestianans guilty of supporting terror-- you couldn't leave well enough alone, and had to transform that into 'guilty of terrorism'.
Why did you do that?
| 306 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:11:22pm |
re: #303 Darlington
Okay. So what rationale is there, then, for punishing the Palestinian people as a whole?
To the extent that Israel has ever done that: the fact that they are, effectively, a national group, and there is no way in this day and age for one nation to fight another while letting uninvolved civilians sit it out on the sidelines. Would God there were, it would save a hell of a lot of heartache.
| 307 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:14:03pm |
re: #305 Obdicut
In general, the support for rocket attacks against Israel fluctuates between 50 and 60% support in Palestine, with much higher numbers in Gaza.
Even when you had a decent point to make-- that Marjoriemoon had said that she considered all palestianans guilty of supporting terror-- you couldn't leave well enough alone, and had to transform that into 'guilty of terrorism'.
Why did you do that?
The idea (not my idea that is) was that all persons who support terror would enable it. That was the main point. I was responding to that.
| 308 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:17:19pm |
re: #307 Darlington
Try answering the question.
Marjoriemoon wrote that she considered all Muslims living in the territories to be guilty of supporting terror. A position with which I strongly disagree, and have argued with her about.
You changed that to accuse her-- and Ludwig-- of saying that all Palestinians were guilty of terrorism. A false accusation.
Why did you do that?
| 309 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:22:45pm |
re: #308 Obdicut
Try answering the question.
Marjoriemoon wrote that she considered all Muslims living in the territories to be guilty of supporting terror. A position with which I strongly disagree, and have argued with her about.
You changed that to accuse her-- and Ludwig-- of saying that all Palestinians were guilty of terrorism. A false accusation.
Why did you do that?
As to that post that you quoted, I was talking about both of them were in favor of the idea of collective guilt of an entire population for the terroristic crimes of a minority, and the collective punishment of that population.
When you discuss forced deportation of millions (as LudwigVanQuixote did in this thread), the vast majority of whom committed NO crime, well, yes, I do think that that proves my assertion. As for marjoriemoon, she tried to pass of the guilt of a few on all of Palestine. (See #144).
| 310 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:28:34pm |
re: #309 Darlington
I'm not sure why you can't understand the question. Let's try it again.
Marjoriemoon wrote that she considered all Muslims living in the territories to be guilty of supporting terror. A position with which I strongly disagree, and have argued with her about.
You changed that to accuse her-- and Ludwig-- of saying that all Palestinians were guilty of terrorism. A false accusation.
Why did you do that?
I understand that you changed it. You don't need you to remind me that you were talking about collective guilt. What I'm asking about is why you changed their actual charge of collective guilt in support of terrorism, to the charge of collective guilt in terrorism itself.
That is what I would like answered.
Can you try?
| 311 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:32:26pm |
re: #310 Obdicut
I'm not sure why you can't understand the question. Let's try it again.
Marjoriemoon wrote that she considered all Muslims living in the territories to be guilty of supporting terror. A position with which I strongly disagree, and have argued with her about.
You changed that to accuse her-- and Ludwig-- of saying that all Palestinians were guilty of terrorism. A false accusation.
Why did you do that?
I understand that you changed it. You don't need you to remind me that you were talking about collective guilt. What I'm asking about is why you changed their actual charge of collective guilt in support of terrorism, to the charge of collective guilt in terrorism itself.
That is what I would like answered.
Can you try?
Fine. Take out the one post in which I said that. Does that change the facts any? I don't think so.
Both of them support collective punishment of the Palestinian people.
| 312 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:33:12pm |
re: #304 Alouette
Doubleplusungood, Ludwig.
I say, empty out the refugee camp hell holes, and resettle them in the countries where the camps are located.
I mean Gaza and the West Bank. The countries, where the camps are located if you believe the Arabs are Jordan and Egypt.
| 313 |
Jeff Zazlow Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:35:01pm |
re: #90 Jeff Zazlow
The Palestinians have been itching and itching and itching to get into the headlines... rockets from Gaza, attempted terror attacks and now a bomb in Jerusalem... I MEAN WHO THE HELL DO THESE LIBYANS, EGYPTIANS, BAHRAINESE, SYRIANS ETC... THINK THEY ARE??? DON'T THEY KNOW THE ONLY PITY CAUSE IN THE WORLD WORTHY OF ATTENTION, MONEY, CHARITY, FOOD, PROPOGANDA AND GENERATING SCORN IS THE PITY A STENIANS?
I now amend this somewhat... the people driving this are the Iranians, Syrians and Arab states to a large degree... they are seeing MASSIVE uprisings throughout the Arab world revealing in blazing clarity for the first time the REAL ire of the Arab man on the street.... and they of course don't like it and FEAR it... so they dsperately try to stoke the "JEW" bad guy in Israel...
This is one time I PRAY Israel choke this faucet without a conflict so the snake of the Arab street can continue to choke and scare the shit out of they Arab despotic states especially Syria..... and hopefully Iran in the future....
An uprising in Syria would be so helpful to the MEast from an American and Israeli perspective..... not to mention a g-d send to Lebanon especially.....
G-d Speed......
Mike
| 314 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:38:00pm |
re: #312 LudwigVanQuixote
I mean Gaza and the West Bank. The countries, where the camps are located if you believe the Arabs are Jordan and Egypt.
Given the fact that me and Obdicut have been arguing over this for the past half hour, let's simplify this.
Do you think that the Palestinians - or as you call them, Jordanians and Egyptians.. should be collectively punished for acts of terrorism in that country(Palestine), on the grounds of supporting, enabling, or engaging in acts of terror?
| 315 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:39:36pm |
re: #311 Darlington
Fine. Take out the one post in which I said that. Does that change the facts any? I don't think so.
Both of them support collective punishment of the Palestinian people.
What are you talking about? Why can't you answer the question?
Why did you change what they said?
| 316 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:40:28pm |
re: #314 Darlington
Given the fact that me and Obdicut have been arguing over this for the past half hour, let's simplify this.
Do you think that the Palestinians - or as you call them, Jordanians and Egyptians.. should be collectively punished for acts of terrorism in that country(Palestine), on the grounds of supporting, enabling, or engaging in acts of terror?
Does something like Operation Cast Lead count as 'collective punishment' in your book?
| 317 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:41:41pm |
re: #316 SanFranciscoZionist
Does something like Operation Cast Lead count as 'collective punishment' in your book?
What about Israel refusing to let people cross the border from Gaza?
What about the blockade?
Are these 'collective punishment'?
| 318 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:42:01pm |
re: #315 Obdicut
I was attempting to cut to the point, and I don't think it's that inaccurate. Besides, as I said in #311, I did that in one post.
I think you're blowing this out of its proportion.
| 319 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:44:47pm |
re: #316 SanFranciscoZionist
Does something like Operation Cast Lead count as 'collective punishment' in your book?
re: #317 SanFranciscoZionist
What about Israel refusing to let people cross the border from Gaza?
What about the blockade?
Are these 'collective punishment'?
No and no on the first two points, and no on the third for as long as the blockades are directed primarily at military munitions and so forth.
I was specifically referring to things like mass deportations, the cutting off of food/water/electricity, all things that have been discussed above.
| 320 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:45:14pm |
re: #314 Darlington
Given the fact that me and Obdicut have been arguing over this for the past half hour, let's simplify this.
Do you think that the Palestinians - or as you call them, Jordanians and Egyptians.. should be collectively punished for acts of terrorism in that country(Palestine), on the grounds of supporting, enabling, or engaging in acts of terror?
Well since you seem to have a fairy-tale view of war, let me start by pointing out that all war is collective punishment.
If a people actively supports and votes for a government that levies war and makes acts of war, then those people suffer for it. It is a two edged sword really.
Even if the people were not 100% in support, it does not matter. This is the point that SFZ has made to you again and again.
Let me give you an example.
I am perfectly willing to count an 18 year old German kid who was drafted into the Wehrmacht and didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground as another victim of Hitler. However the cost of letting him win outweighs the sadness anyone should feel for him. He too had to be killed. War is ugly. the only way to make it less ugly is to win it as quickly as possible.
That means killing enough so quickly that the enemy reconsiders. That is how it works.
As to hitting the civilian population directly and intentionally in hostilities, of course, that should be avoided. As to a pie in the sky notion that a war can be fought without any civilian suffering, particularly when the enemy uses them as shields - that is ludicrous.
| 321 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:46:01pm |
re: #319 Darlington
re: #317 SanFranciscoZionist
No and no on the first two points, and no on the third for as long as the blockades are directed primarily at military munitions and so forth.
I was specifically referring to things like mass deportations, the cutting off of food/water/electricity, all things that have been discussed above.
People are pretty raw today. It's been a bad week.
| 322 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:47:29pm |
re: #318 Darlington
I was attempting to cut to the point, and I don't think it's that inaccurate. Besides, as I said in #311, I did that in one post.
I think you're blowing this out of its proportion.
You don't think that 'support for terrorism' is different than 'terrorism'?
Seriously?
| 323 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:55:44pm |
re: #320 LudwigVanQuixote
Well since you seem to have a fairy-tale view of war, let me start by pointing out that all war is collective punishment.
If a people actively supports and votes for a government that levies war and makes acts of war, then those people suffer for it. It is a two edged sword really.
Even if the people were not 100% in support, it does not matter. This is the point that SFZ has made to you again and again.
Let me give you an example.
I am perfectly willing to count an 18 year old German kid who was drafted into the Wehrmacht and didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground as another victim of Hitler. However the cost of letting him win outweighs the sadness anyone should feel for him. He too had to be killed. War is ugly. the only way to make it less ugly is to win it as quickly as possible.
That means killing enough so quickly that the enemy reconsiders. That is how it works.
As to hitting the civilian population directly and intentionally in hostilities, of course, that should be avoided. As to a pie in the sky notion that a war can be fought without any civilian suffering, particularly when the enemy uses them as shields - that is ludicrous.
Okay, I get your point. War is suffering, and collateral damage is impossible to avoid. I get both points and agree with them.
My question was very clear. You said you were in favor of deporting millions of people from Palestine, and cutting off water and electricity supplies. That has nothing about defeating Hamas or their soldiers. That's about hitting the civilian population.
Do you think that Palestinians as a whole should be DIRECTLY (not in the indirect way that you talked about) collectively punished or not?
| 324 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:56:58pm |
re: #322 Obdicut
You don't think that 'support for terrorism' is different than 'terrorism'?
Seriously?
Yes, I do. You're not reading my post. I meant that I don't think the charge in itself is inaccurate. Not that the two things are equivalent.
| 325 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 3:04:09pm |
re: #323 Darlington
Okay, I get your point. War is suffering, and collateral damage is impossible to avoid. I get both points and agree with them.
My question was very clear. You said you were in favor of deporting millions of people from Palestine, and cutting off water and electricity supplies. That has nothing about defeating Hamas or their soldiers. That's about hitting the civilian population.
Do you think that Palestinians as a whole should be DIRECTLY (not in the indirect way that you talked about) collectively punished or not?
Yes because that is still less horrible than all out war. Don't pretend they haven't asked for it either.
| 326 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 3:05:36pm |
re: #323 Darlington
Or let me turn that around, do you think the collective punishment of every Israeli by the threat of random terror attack is ok?
| 327 |
Bob Levin Wed, Mar 23, 2011 3:08:06pm |
re: #135 Darlington
Actually, that's not how she feels. I frequently post instances of Israelis and Palestinians working together on important projects and Marjorie, if I recall, is supportive of those efforts.
| 328 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 3:13:07pm |
re: #325 LudwigVanQuixote
Yes because that is still less horrible than all out war. Don't pretend they haven't asked for it either.
Well, it might be less horrible than "all out war", but it's not moral, and it certainly isn't legal.
re: #326 LudwigVanQuixote
Or let me turn that around, do you think the collective punishment of every Israeli by the threat of random terror attack is ok?
No, and that has nothing to do with my point.
| 329 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 3:13:24pm |
re: #312 LudwigVanQuixote
I mean Gaza and the West Bank. The countries, where the camps are located if you believe the Arabs are Jordan and Egypt.
There are camps in Gaza and the West Bank.
| 330 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 3:14:37pm |
Darlington is setting up an army of straw men.
| 331 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 3:20:08pm |
| 332 |
Bob Levin Wed, Mar 23, 2011 3:27:42pm |
re: #187 Obdicut
Let's try another route. Everyone knows that the food and water problems in the region are going to get worse. Millions of people will be threatened with famine, dehydration, disease.
Israel spends a great deal of time and effort to develop technologies that would alleviate these upcoming--plagues (it's going to be that bad). So these nations will have a choice, to knock off the hatred and live, or die from their hatred.
Israel just has to keep inventing.
| 333 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 4:07:41pm |
re: #332 Bob Levin
Those nations may also choose, once their food crisis grows too great, to attack Israel. Famine is not a thing that makes for good neighbors.
| 334 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 4:08:39pm |
re: #324 Darlington
Yes, I do. You're not reading my post. I meant that I don't think the charge in itself is inaccurate. Not that the two things are equivalent.
Ah. So you're content to charge people with things that you derived through your psychic powers, rather than what they actually said.
Thought so.
| 335 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Mar 23, 2011 4:16:18pm |
re: #329 Alouette
There are camps in Gaza and the West Bank.
My point exactly! Those folks should be the Jordanians and Egyptians they were always claimed to be!
| 336 |
Darlington Wed, Mar 23, 2011 4:16:18pm |
re: #334 Obdicut
Ah. So you're content to charge people with things that you derived through your psychic powers, rather than what they actually said.
Thought so.
I've been clear about my main charge except perhaps in one post. Which you jumped on.
| 337 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 4:21:17pm |
re: #336 Darlington
I've been clear about my main charge except perhaps in one post. Which you jumped on.
You have just reafirrmed that you really are making that charge, which requires you to somehow 'know' that Ludwig and Marjoriemoon really are accusing all Palestinians of being guilty of terrorism, rather than what Marjorie actually said-- which was that she thought Palestinians were collectively guilty of support for terrorism.
Why are you saying she's lying, and how is it that you know that your charge against her really is accurate?
| 338 |
Bob Levin Wed, Mar 23, 2011 4:27:43pm |
re: #333 Obdicut
We have a disagreement on psychology. Hatred is actually a luxury, after food and water are taken care of, food and water being so very basic. There is no way that, at that level of being, you attack another nation in the hopes that your soil will magically become fertile and that you will have potable water.
Here's the paradox, kiddo. I'm saying that underneath the antisemitic mishigas, there is humanity that behaves rationally. You are arguing that this very basic level of humanity is not there.
Famine is not a thing that makes for good neighbors.
Israel will help them grow food and purify water. That's on the table right now.
| 339 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 4:34:20pm |
re: #338 Bob Levin
We have a disagreement on psychology. Hatred is actually a luxury, after food and water are taken care of, food and water being so very basic. There is no way that, at that level of being, you attack another nation in the hopes that your soil will magically become fertile and that you will have potable water.
That's not why they would attack. They'd attack because of a breakdown in the civil order caused by the famine, along with literally attacking in order to get food.
Here's the paradox, kiddo.
Yeah. Don't call me kiddo.
I'm saying that underneath the antisemitic mishigas, there is humanity that behaves rationally. You are arguing that this very basic level of humanity is not there.
No, I am not, at all. I don't think that humanity behaves rationally, though. I'm not sure why you do.
We are capable of doing so. We do so sometimes. That doesn't mean that doing so is our most basic level.
If humanity behaved rationally, there would be no lottery tickets and no antisemitism.
Israel will help them grow food and purify water. That's on the table right now.
Yep. And if there is sudden massive change in the Middle East, like a string of revolutions that wind up making the culture less anti-semitic, it's a possibly that will be accepted. But right now, no.
| 340 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 4:44:52pm |
You know what, fuck this. GAZE the asshole troll.
| 341 |
Ming Wed, Mar 23, 2011 5:14:31pm |
The explosion in Jerusalem is a shame. I believe that Israel has in recent years done a very good job of preventing terrorist attacks from the West Bank. Obviously this one attack did succeed, but hopefully, Israel will continue to be able to prevent many more attacks.
I hope I'm wrong, but the violence that we're seeing across the "greater Middle East", e.g. Libya, Bahrain, Yemen, may continue to grow and engulf more countries, and be joined by increasing violence between Israel and Iran. I don't have any reason to expect this, but we've seen recently that the area has "flared up". Also, we've seen with Japan that even "a little" radiation can be a very big deal; some parts of Japan may be declared uninhabitable. What I'm trying to say is, there is a great potential for lots of bad things to happen in that region. I hope we win quickly in Libya (not that I'm optimistic), that the Arab countries become a little more democratic, and that Israel's enemies are discouraged from any more violent escalations.
| 342 |
Bob Levin Wed, Mar 23, 2011 5:21:30pm |
re: #339 Obdicut
Really, a downding? I didn't mean anything by the 'kiddo', it was purely intended as a friendly remark. I use it in real life, no problems. Usually we laugh afterward.
So I'm sorry for the remark, it won't happen again.
I think that a breakdown in civil order usually means that you are attacking the person right next to you. I can see that happening in just such a crisis.
Like I said, we disagree on psychology. I think we are made of layers, and you're right, a lot of those layers are nutty and dangerous. But underneath all of that, at the foundation, so to speak, I think there is rationality, kindness, and compassion. I can't prove it or convince anyone else that this is truth.
I'm just saying that if this very real possibility were to occur (not anytime soon, but not that far away either), then many people in completely dysfunctional cultures will change.
That is one idea on how an all out war can be avoided. It doesn't mean that there won't be pain or suffering, just that Israel doesn't have to inflict it. I don't think Israel and the Jewish people want to inflict it.
| 343 |
Obdicut Wed, Mar 23, 2011 5:27:26pm |
re: #342 Bob Levin
Like I said, we disagree on psychology. I think we are made of layers, and you're right, a lot of those layers are nutty and dangerous. But underneath all of that, at the foundation, so to speak, I think there is rationality, kindness, and compassion.
I think there's kindness and compassion. Rationality has nothing to do with those qualities. Rationality is a very, very different kettle of fish. I don't think talking about terms of layers makes any sense at all, frankly, either. Humans don't come in layers. They come in what they are, individual humans. They have some rational beliefs, some irrational ones, and make some rational and some irrational decisions. That's humanity. The way to improve that is through enlightenment-style civics.
It is not something that will spontaneously spring forth in famine situations. There's famine in Somalia, and yet the fighting there does not stop.
I'm just saying that if this very real possibility were to occur (not anytime soon, but not that far away either), then many people in completely dysfunctional cultures will change.
The culture would have to change first.
| 344 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Mar 23, 2011 5:31:32pm |
I like to read Cracked.com just for a laugh. But there are asshole anti-Semites posting there too.
| 345 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Mar 23, 2011 6:04:52pm |
re: #335 LudwigVanQuixote
My point exactly! Those folks should be the Jordanians and Egyptians they were always claimed to be!
If you can get Jordan and Egypt to sign on to that, more power to you.
| 346 |
Westward Ho Wed, Mar 23, 2011 6:31:31pm |
| 347 |
Westward Ho Wed, Mar 23, 2011 6:37:52pm |
I see only the following options for Israel, and all of them carry high political risks
1. Operation cast lead 2 - this risks handing the odious Hamas a propaganda coup.
2. Regime change in Gaza - this would risk the same propaganda coup as in 1. but if successful could eliminate the group. The flipside is prolonged occupation with loss of Israeli lives and worse it might not be successful as it happened before in Lebanon.
2. Business as usual with tit for tat strikes. But in this case the day of reckoning draws near when the missile range begins to increase and the Israeli leadership will have to choose between 1 & 2.
Does any body envisage less bleaker scenarios?
| 348 |
Westward Ho Wed, Mar 23, 2011 7:26:39pm |
This article posted by someone else on this thread requires to be reposted.
No other nation has received the amount of scrutinizing, criticism, coverage, demonization and delegitimization. In fact the question to be asked is not whether there is bias against Israel; but rather why there is bias against Israel?
More than 80 human rights non-governmental organizations operate within Israel, constantly monitoring and criticizing it with nothing to worry about -- either professionally or politically
The recent governmental meltdowns in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya have exposed that Arab dictators keep cash and property in Western countries, where they are able to roam freely, while many Israeli politicians have to think twice before they set a foot in Europe for fear of being arrested for "war crimes."
| 349 |
sliv_the_eli Wed, Mar 23, 2011 8:56:24pm |
re: #9 lawhawk
And additional reports indicate that the mortars contained phosphorus - prohibited under international law (for all who claimed that Israel used phosphorus against civilians - what say you now about the Gazans using them) explicitly with the purpose of harming civilians and/or setting fires to farm/forest lands.
Well, the UN Human Rights Council will be recommending referring Israel to the ICC over some imgained matter or other. Does that count?
| 350 |
sliv_the_eli Wed, Mar 23, 2011 9:06:15pm |
re: #24 marjoriemoon
I'll take your word. I can't read it.
Israeli casualties are always met with indifference. Dead Jews are acceptable. Dead Arabs aren't.
This stuff makes me crabby and very much un-PC.
Just one tweak to your comment. To too many in the West, dead Arabs are acceptable when they are killed by our enemies, and are only unacceptable when killed by Jews who are defending themselves.
| 351 |
Girl with a Pearl Earring Thu, Mar 24, 2011 12:38:23am |
"Are Palestinian terror gangs running out of dupes willing to commit suicide to perpetrate mass murder?"
No, but Hamas is once again demonstrating why peace with them is impossible. Meanwhile, the UN and 99% of the world ignores that fact.
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