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1 abolitionist  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:03:47pm

I like the quote from Jefferson.

2 wvng  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:07:29pm

I considered taking up smoking just so I could smoke a cigarette after watching this segment.

3 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:10:50pm

The Bible as a "living document"?
Outrageous!
/Seriously, What a refreshing diatribe on religion. I wish more Christians like him were more outspoken. The loudest Christian voices are so often the worst ones.

4 researchok  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:10:59pm

I like O'Donnell.

He comes across as reasonable and rational, unlike a lot of of the more popular MSNBC show hosts.

5 APox  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:12:47pm

Funny, I grew up in the south and all the Baptist preachers I recall said the Bible was God's living word, and that everything in it was a sacred message from god that would consider it a pretty grave misstep to believe you can "pick and choose" what parts of the Bible you agree with..

6 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:13:01pm

re: #4 researchok

I've never watched him before but he seems like a serious guy. Maddow often does a great job but she's a little too smarmy for me to take too seriously.

7 webevintage  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:16:38pm

O'Donnell has really become a great lead-in to Maddow, his nightly mocking/indignation (with being annoying like Ed Schultz or Oberman) at the bullshit from the TEAGop and Beckites (and Dems too) helps me get though the total emotional drag that the political landscape has become in the past year.

(and Charles really, this site also helps and thank you for not ignoring the TEAGop War on Women 2011. The SD story just really makes me want to punch something.)

8 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:20:17pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

I just find her smirky and wonky. I think the depth of the research she does and the fact she seems to actually understand most subjects she talks about counteracts, for me, any personal 'tude.

9 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:22:16pm

Beck Complains That Drudge Didn't Devote Enough Attention To Latest Conspiracy Theory

I guess drudge is too busy posting links from Alex Jones. Heh.

10 William of Orange  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:23:02pm

Of course Beck's message is "BUY GOLD!!!"

11 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:24:09pm

OT, my poor cat, he had a bad tooth so I took him to the vet and fortunately he shook his head while there and the tooth came out, so no extraction, the bad news is he has to have 3 others removed as well.

12 researchok  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:25:17pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

I've never watched him before but he seems like a serious guy. Maddow often does a great job but she's a little too smarmy for me to take too seriously.

Agreed.

Also, it seems at times every reasonable argument Maddow makes is undermined by another outrageous one- as in the US has no debt crisis. That puts her at odds with

MSNBC .
New York Times.
Washington Post .
LA Times .
Reuters.
CNN .
Business Week.
NPR.

Had she stuck to her union talking points, she'd have been a lot more credible, IMO. Why she got on the Michale Moore bandwagon is beyond me.

13 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:26:04pm

re: #8 Obdicut

I just find her smirky and wonky. I think the depth of the research she does and the fact she seems to actually understand most subjects she talks about counteracts, for me, any personal 'tude.

I'm curious how MSNBC handles the Israel-Palestine issue. I assume their coverage is fairly middle of the road. It'll be interesting to see how they cover it if things heat up after the most recent bombing.

14 Achilles Tang  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:27:50pm

re: #5 APox

Funny, I grew up in the south and all the Baptist preachers I recall said the Bible was God's living word, and that everything in it was a sacred message from god that would consider it a pretty grave misstep to believe you can "pick and choose" what parts of the Bible you agree with..

If nobody did that there would be only one church, and certainly no remake like the one Beck's buddies did less than 200 years ago.

15 Randall Gross  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:30:05pm

re: #5 APox

But at the same time they do not stone their children to death if they diss their parents either.

16 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:30:54pm

re: #5 APox

Funny, I grew up in the south and all the Baptist preachers I recall said the Bible was God's living word, and that everything in it was a sacred message from god that would consider it a pretty grave misstep to believe you can "pick and choose" what parts of the Bible you agree with..

That is a point that a theologian might hold, but it is, fortunatlely, not one that he can force on anyone. Not as long as we insist on a separation of Church and State, at least...

17 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:31:02pm

Related news: Sales of luxe doomsday bunkers up 1,000%


Northwest Shelter Systems, which offers shelters ranging in price from $200,000 to $20 million, has seen sales surge 70% since the uprisings in the Middle East, with the Japanese earthquake only spurring further interest. In hard numbers, that's 12 shelters already booked when the company normally sells four shelters per year.

"Sales have gone through the roof, to the point where we are having trouble keeping up," said Northwest Shelter Systems owner Kevin Thompson.


A lot of people agree with Beck that the end is near.

18 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:31:44pm

It looks like yesterday's hugely outrageous outrage, the SEIU janitor organizer who was going to destroy America, has sunk beneath the waves without a trace.

19 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:32:16pm

re: #17 Killgore Trout

Related news: Sales of luxe doomsday bunkers up 1,000%


A lot of people agree with Beck that the end is near.

Not just Beck's blathering, but earthquakes, tsunamis, nuclear meltdowns and new wars and political upheavals do tend to make people a bit edgy...

20 Darlington  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:33:01pm

Glenn Beck has really gone off the deep end.

Which, given where he was to start with, is quite an achievement in a bad way. Apparently even Fox News viewers have had enough of him and his daily expressions of insanity.. Proving everyone has a limit.

Even Beck's fellows in the asylum have had enough of him.

The sad thing, and the scary thing is that it took too long.

If you don't get the feeling of "batshit crazy" after watching Glenn Beck for 30 seconds, I think there's something wrong with you.

21 researchok  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:33:16pm

re: #18 Charles

It looks like yesterday's hugely outrageous outrage, the SEIU janitor organizer who was going to destroy America, has sunk beneath the waves without a trace.

15 minutes is now 15 seconds.

22 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:34:07pm

re: #17 Killgore Trout

Related news: Sales of luxe doomsday bunkers up 1,000%


A lot of people agree with Beck that the end is near.

We call this baby the withstandanator it can survive a 20 megaton blast, no more, no less.

23 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:34:21pm

re: #12 researchok

No, I don't think it's at all reasonable to say that she matches good stories with outrageous ones. She's got consistent quality, with good research and, when she invites people to talk, she gives them the time to make their case.

The budget thing is the only example I can think of of her even skirting close to being 'outrageous'.

Can you think of another example?

24 APox  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:36:30pm

re: #16 ralphieboy

That is a point that a theologian might hold, but it is, fortunatlely, not one that he can force on anyone. Not as long as we insist on a separation of Church and State, at least...

I agree and am happy for it. But I think he might be underestimating the number of people that are not as "refined" in his faith as he seems to be.

25 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:36:37pm

re: #18 Charles

It looks like yesterday's hugely outrageous outrage, the SEIU janitor organizer who was going to destroy America, has sunk beneath the waves without a trace.

kind of like R'Lyeh, but the madness still remains.

26 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:36:57pm

re: #18 Charles

It looks like yesterday's hugely outrageous outrage, the SEIU janitor organizer who was going to destroy America, has sunk beneath the waves without a trace.

It seems Beck is pissed (and a little embarrassed) that it flopped so bad.

27 Stanghazi  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:37:52pm

re: #17 Killgore Trout

Related news: Sales of luxe doomsday bunkers up 1,000%


A lot of people agree with Beck that the end is near.

[Link: www.terravivos.com...]

Oh my, they are in Del Mar!!!

28 Randall Gross  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:39:01pm

re: #22 jamesfirecat

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

29 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:39:44pm

We've been living in the End TimesTM for thousands of years now. I can only conclude that God is one lazy, procrastinating bastard. That, or He has DADD.

30 Amory Blaine  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:39:46pm

Very good commentary. Beck speaks for the GOP and republicans.

31 Achilles Tang  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:39:51pm

re: #22 jamesfirecat

We call this baby the withstandanator it can survive a 20 megaton blast, no more, no less.

Next, Tsunami proof Arks.

32 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:42:01pm

re: #29 Slumbering Behemoth

We've been living in the End TimesTM for thousands of years now. I can only conclude that God is one lazy, procrastinating bastard. That, or He has DADD.

DUDE. Where have you been?!?

33 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:42:52pm

re: #29 Slumbering Behemoth

That, or He has DADD.

Deity Attention Deficit Disorder?

34 shutdown  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:43:00pm

re: #32 wrenchwench

DUDE. Where have you been?!?

Slumbering, no doubt.

35 leftynyc  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:44:09pm

re: #12 researchok


I'm pretty sure her point was that the republican governors screaming poverty is in direct conflict with the fact they are giving massive tax cuts to businesses and the wealthy which will increase the deficit they're screaming about. While they're giving those tax cuts to the wealthy, they're raising taxes on the middle class and cutting services that would help poor.

36 researchok  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:44:09pm

re: #23 Obdicut

No, I don't think it's at all reasonable to say that she matches good stories with outrageous ones. She's got consistent quality, with good research and, when she invites people to talk, she gives them the time to make their case.

The budget thing is the only example I can think of of her even skirting close to being 'outrageous'.

Can you think of another example?

Nope- i haven't really looked. The budget beaut was enough for me.

I do wonder why she hasn't walked that back, though. She strikes me as pretty stand up, for the most part.

37 Darlington  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:44:09pm

re: #18 Charles

It looks like yesterday's hugely outrageous outrage, the SEIU janitor organizer who was going to destroy America, has sunk beneath the waves without a trace.

re: #26 Killgore Trout

It seems Beck is pissed (and a little embarrassed) that it flopped so bad.

This was probably mentioned before, but...

That so-called bombshell video by the SEIU was from Beck's propaganda site The Blaze.

A week or so ago, The Blaze attacked O'Keefe and his staged videos.

Is Beck trying to take down O'Keefe and become the man behind the fake, overblown right-wing stings?

38 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:44:56pm

re: #32 wrenchwench

DUDE. Where have you been?!?

Been going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

re: #33 wrenchwench

Deity Attention Deficit Disorder?

BINGO!

39 aagcobb  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:46:25pm

re: #12 researchok

We don't have a debt crisis, we have an unemployment crisis. People's lives are being destroyed by unemployment, and DC is fixated on a debt problem that can easily be resolved once the economy recovers.

40 researchok  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:46:28pm

re: #35 leftynyc

I'm pretty sure her point was that the republican governors screaming poverty is in direct conflict with the fact they are giving massive tax cuts to businesses and the wealthy which will increase the deficit they're screaming about. While they're giving those tax cuts to the wealthy, they're raising taxes on the middle class and cutting services that would help poor.

I don't know- she was pretty explicit in saying there was no budget crisis.

41 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:47:17pm

re: #38 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #33 wrenchwench

BINGO!

You made me slobber on my screen....

42 researchok  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:47:36pm

re: #39 aagcobb

We don't have a debt crisis, we have an unemployment crisis. People's lives are being destroyed by unemployment, and DC is fixated on a debt problem that can easily be resolved once the economy recovers.

Are saying monetary policy and budget overages are not really a problem?

43 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:49:36pm

re: #36 researchok

Nope- i haven't really looked. The budget beaut was enough for me.

I do wonder why she hasn't walked that back, though. She strikes me as pretty stand up, for the most part.

Can I get a link to this "budget beaut"?

44 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:49:58pm

re: #36 researchok

Nope- i haven't really looked. The budget beaut was enough for me.

I do wonder why she hasn't walked that back, though. She strikes me as pretty stand up, for the most part.

A single example is enough for you to categorize her as matching every good story with an outrageous one?

That's really weird.

The budget one really isn't that gigantic a deal. It wasn't in any way the crux of her argument. Whether or not there's a deficit or not is moot. She even says that the argument really isn't about the budget.

45 aagcobb  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:51:51pm

re: #42 researchok

Not a major problem. Get people working and revenues will go up as the need for services go down. Then let the Bush tax cuts for the rich expire, and increase the marginal rate if you need to. As long as the economy grows fast enough, the debt will take care of itself. Unemployment at nearly 9%, with millions of long-term unemployed-that is a major problem which is what DC should be addressing.

46 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:53:40pm

re: #42 researchok

Are saying monetary policy and budget overages are not really a problem?

Dude way to strawman his argument.

The way I read it he was simply suggesting that at the moment America's high unemployment is a bigger issue than our deficit.

Do you disagree?

47 leftynyc  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:55:36pm

re: #40 researchok

If there is a budget crisis, where is the reasoning for giving ANY tax cuts which only add to the deficit?

48 shutdown  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:56:26pm

re: #45 aagcobb

We are past being able to spend our way out of this particular crisis:
Concern over US Liquidity

49 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:56:56pm

Wasn't there talk going around awhile back that Fox is considering not renewing Beck's contract when it expires at the end of this year?

50 shutdown  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:57:46pm

re: #49 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Wasn't there talk going around awhile back that Fox is considering not renewing Beck's contract when it expires at the end of this year?

Not talk. Rumour, supposition.

51 Achilles Tang  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:57:50pm

re: #46 jamesfirecat

Dude way to strawman his argument.

The way I read it he was simply suggesting that at the moment America's high unemployment is a bigger issue than our deficit.

Do you disagree?

They kind of go together. Decrease spending and increase tax revenues. The latter is not allowed by increasing tax rates, so the only way is to get more people working, and paying taxes.

52 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:57:54pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout
Seen this?
Glenn Beck talks vague future with Fox News: 'The only thing in life that is constant is change'

[Link: popwatch.ew.com...]

Excerpt
Break out your blackboards: It’s time to analyze those rumors that Glenn Beck is leaving Fox News again. After The New York Times published an article earlier this month claiming that Beck may be being pushed out of the network, Beck used his first show back from vacation to discuss the piece and his vague future with the network. During the show, Beck, whose contract with Fox expires at the end of the year, appeared to hint that he will be severing ties with Fox News, saying “the only thing in life that is constant is change.”

53 shutdown  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:59:00pm

re: #52 Rightwingconspirator

Hold on. I thought the world was about to end. Or not. I guess we just don't know.

54 researchok  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:59:28pm

re: #46 jamesfirecat

Dude way to strawman his argument.

The way I read it he was simply suggesting that at the moment America's high unemployment is a bigger issue than our deficit.

Do you disagree?

Yes- from a purely economic standpoint.

Our unemployment debacle is a direct result of bad fiscal policies (mostly Bush, I would hasten to add. Obama could have done better IMO, notwithstanding the shitty hand he was dealt).

55 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 12:59:35pm

re: #51 Naso Tang

They kind of go together. Decrease spending and increase tax revenues. The latter is not allowed by increasing tax rates, so the only way is to get more people working, and paying taxes.

I agree.

The problem is that creating more jobs will eventually lead to a decrease in the deficit.

It doesn't work in reverse however as penny pinching to try and lower the deficit won't magically create jobs....

56 aagcobb  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:01:31pm

re: #48 imp_62

Corporations have been making huge profits, but not hiring people. DC should be finding ways to put money in the hands of the lower and middle classes, who will spend it, instead of the rich, who speculate with it. Of course they chose the rich over the rest of us.

57 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:02:26pm

re: #55 jamesfirecat

I agree.

The problem is that creating more jobs will eventually lead to a decrease in the deficit.

It doesn't work in reverse however as penny pinching to try and lower the deficit won't magically create jobs...

No, if anything, it destroys them. And that's going to come back to bite us in the ass, as the jobs that will be wiped out by budgetary cuts are not going to magically reappear in the private sector. You're talking anywhere from thousands to millions more people in the unemployment line, which is going to suck even more money out of the economy.

58 albusteve  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:02:40pm

re: #52 Rightwingconspirator

Seen this?
Glenn Beck talks vague future with Fox News: 'The only thing in life that is constant is change'

[Link: popwatch.ew.com...]

Excerpt
Break out your blackboards: It’s time to analyze those rumors that Glenn Beck is leaving Fox News again. After The New York Times published an article earlier this month claiming that Beck may be being pushed out of the network, Beck used his first show back from vacation to discuss the piece and his vague future with the network. During the show, Beck, whose contract with Fox expires at the end of the year, appeared to hint that he will be severing ties with Fox News, saying “the only thing in life that is constant is change.”

he needs to retire to the Keys....get a boat, write a book or whatever....his message runs the risk of becoming diluted and meaningless....maybe start a church

59 shutdown  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:04:00pm

re: #55 jamesfirecat

"Creating Jobs" is a misleading term, though. Government can create jobs in the short term, and attempt to create taxpayers by expending tax money. That is not sustainable in the absence of new private sector employment. Government investment in jobs should be by way of creating a positive environment for economic growth. Simply passing tax dollars to workers so that they can pay taxes on it is not the answer. Assistance programs are good, but should be recognized as such, rather than mislabeled as "job creation".

60 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:04:28pm

re: #53 imp_62
Heh. The world as I knew it ended long ago. Heck, according to this bunch none of us ever existed, as we came after the end time.

[Link: www.religioustolerance.org...]

A few choice examples of end of world FAIL
1736: British theologian and mathematician William Whitson predicted a great flood similar to Noah's for OCT-13 of this year.

bullet 1792: This was the date of the end of the world calculated by some believers in the Shaker movement.

bullet 1794: Charles Wesley, one of the founders of Methodism, thought Doomsday would be in this year.

bullet 1830: Margaret McDonald, a Christian prophetess, predicted that Robert Owen would be the Antichrist. Owen helped found New Harmony, IN.

Of course Nostradamus went for 1999... If anyone read him right.

61 Achilles Tang  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:05:44pm

re: #47 leftynyc

If there is a budget crisis, where is the reasoning for giving ANY tax cuts which only add to the deficit?

The rich people have promised to hire more maids with the taxes they saved.

62 Nevertires  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:06:05pm

Ok - for some strange reason I feel compelled to admit that I have a soft spot for Rachel Maddow - bordering on a minor crush.

Something about strong, smart, intelligent women...and especially ones who are/would be completely unvailable to me!

63 shutdown  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:07:33pm

re: #62 Nevertires

Ok - for some strange reason I feel compelled to admit that I have a soft spot for Rachel Maddow - bordering on a minor crush.

Something about strong, smart, intelligent women...and especially ones who are/would be completely unvailable to me!

Don't beat around the bush, man. Maddow is a big time hottie. Smart and looks... irresistible.

64 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:08:31pm

re: #59 imp_62

"Creating Jobs" is a misleading term, though. Government can create jobs in the short term, and attempt to create taxpayers by expending tax money. That is not sustainable in the absence of new private sector employment. Government investment in jobs should be by way of creating a positive environment for economic growth. Simply passing tax dollars to workers so that they can pay taxes on it is not the answer. Assistance programs are good, but should be recognized as such, rather than mislabeled as "job creation".

Yeah, I've heard this line time and time again. How do we create a "positive environment" without falling back on the failed policies of tax cuts and deregulation?

65 albusteve  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:10:23pm

re: #64 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, I've heard this line time and time again. How do we create a "positive environment" without falling back on the failed policies of tax cuts and deregulation?

reopen deep water drilling, and get moving on more and better nukes...put energy sector people back to work

66 shutdown  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:11:24pm

re: #64 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, I've heard this line time and time again. How do we create a "positive environment" without falling back on the failed policies of tax cuts and deregulation?

Target tax breaks to emerging technologies. Encourage startups. Close loopholes being abused by corporations across the board. Regulate actively, but in such a way that growth is encouraged, not stunted. Deregulation is a stalking horse created during Reagan's day to encourage big business political donations.

67 garhighway  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:12:24pm

re: #12 researchok

Agreed.

Also, it seems at times every reasonable argument Maddow makes is undermined by another outrageous one- as in the US has no debt crisis. That puts her at odds with

MSNBC .
New York Times.
Washington Post .
LA Times .
Reuters.
CNN .
Business Week.
NPR.

Had she stuck to her union talking points, she'd have been a lot more credible, IMO. Why she got on the Michale Moore bandwagon is beyond me.

I only went through the first four links, but they don't refute the statement "the US has no debt crisis", and for that matter, that tends not to be Maddow's message.

Generally, she says that the union-busting measures in Wisconsin and elsewhere "aren't about the budget" and in general she is right. (They are, in the main, about defunding a Democratic constituency.) Often, you see proposed budget cuts paired with or following tax cuts that help create the budget hole. Assuming that the "US" you refer to is the United States government, the precise nature of its fiscal situation is the subject of considerable debate. There are many that say cutting the deficit NOW is a terribly bad idea: we can service that debt for almost nothing, so we ought defer deficit cutting to a time when it is less likely to negatively impact jobs and the economy. (I've posted material about that here from time to time.)

Further, her "it isn't about the budget" theme is also employed to note that the people who went to Washington because the electorate wanted them to work on the economy and job creation have instead worked on anything BUT that, instead filling their days with bills about Planned Parenthood and NPR, holding hearings designed to harass Elizabeth Warren for her crime of looking out for consumers, voting against science, and the like.

Does she bat 1.000? Nope. But find me someone who does much better than her. She can be annoyingly smug, but she is good on the facts.

68 BishopX  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:12:43pm

re: #12 researchok

Your NPR link is broken.
Your business week article doesn't mention a budget crisis, only mentions the deficit in quotes and goes on to say that the collective bargaining bill might save 30-300 million over several years, out of a 3,600,000 million deficit.
CNN only references Walkers stated reasons for union busting and doesn't consider the right or wrong of it.
Rueters again cites Walkers reasoning on the bill, no mention of a crisis, or the expected financial benefit in sight.
NYTimes doesn't mention the budget beyond restating walkers position.
WaPo frames the issue with the budget.
The La Times uses state budget shortfalls as a lens to bring what happening in Wisconsin, and they went and got some out side experts to follow the thread.
The NBC article assumes it's all about the budget.

So three out of the eight news sources you cite back up your contention that the media thinks it's about the budget. I think Maddow might have more support than you think when she says it's not about the budget.

69 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:16:14pm

re: #56 aagcobb

Corporations have been making huge profits, but not hiring people. DC should be finding ways to put money in the hands of the lower and middle classes, who will spend it, instead of the rich, who speculate with it. Of course they chose the rich over the rest of us.

Once again, we see that "trickle-Down" does not work in a global economy: capital follows the path of highest returns, and if those returns are better in Indonesia or Guatemala, that is where the jobs will be created.

The US workers and the US government will see little benefit from these tax cuts.

70 garhighway  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:16:32pm

re: #68 BishopX

Y I think Maddow might have more support than you think when she says it's not about the budget.

Because she's right: it isn't about the budget. It's about nearly everything BUT that.

71 researchok  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:17:41pm

re: #43 jamesfirecat

Can I get a link to this "budget beaut"?

Here is one. There are others.

72 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:17:48pm

re: #63 imp_62

Don't beat around the bush, man. Maddow is a big time hottie. Smart and looks... irresistible.

She's a very sexy woman. My father is smitten. So am I.

73 researchok  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:21:38pm

re: #67 garhighway

I only went through the first four links, but they don't refute the statement "the US has no debt crisis", and for that matter, that tends not to be Maddow's message.

Generally, she says that the union-busting measures in Wisconsin and elsewhere "aren't about the budget" and in general she is right. (They are, in the main, about defunding a Democratic constituency.) Often, you see proposed budget cuts paired with or following tax cuts that help create the budget hole. Assuming that the "US" you refer to is the United States government, the precise nature of its fiscal situation is the subject of considerable debate. There are many that say cutting the deficit NOW is a terribly bad idea: we can service that debt for almost nothing, so we ought defer deficit cutting to a time when it is less likely to negatively impact jobs and the economy. (I've posted material about that here from time to time.)

Further, her "it isn't about the budget" theme is also employed to note that the people who went to Washington because the electorate wanted them to work on the economy and job creation have instead worked on anything BUT that, instead filling their days with bills about Planned Parenthood and NPR, holding hearings designed to harass Elizabeth Warren for her crime of looking out for consumers, voting against science, and the like.

Does she bat 1.000? Nope. But find me someone who does much better than her. She can be annoyingly smug, but she is good on the facts.

My principle quibble with Maddow is on budgetary matters she muddies the waters.

See this as well.

As I noted, she can make her point without having to do that.

74 researchok  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:23:30pm

re: #68 BishopX

Your NPR link is broken.
Your business week article doesn't mention a budget crisis, only mentions the deficit in quotes and goes on to say that the collective bargaining bill might save 30-300 million over several years, out of a 3,600,000 million deficit.
CNN only references Walkers stated reasons for union busting and doesn't consider the right or wrong of it.
Rueters again cites Walkers reasoning on the bill, no mention of a crisis, or the expected financial benefit in sight.
NYTimes doesn't mention the budget beyond restating walkers position.
WaPo frames the issue with the budget.
The La Times uses state budget shortfalls as a lens to bring what happening in Wisconsin, and they went and got some out side experts to follow the thread.
The NBC article assumes it's all about the budget.

So three out of the eight news sources you cite back up your contention that the media thinks it's about the budget. I think Maddow might have more support than you think when she says it's not about the budget.

I'll try andf get the NPR link fixed.

My point was that Maddow implies there is no budget crisis and everything is solvent and that somehow, this is all a smokescreen. That just isn't the case.

As I said, she can make her case without muddying the waters.

75 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:32:06pm

re: #74 researchok

That point was very orthogonal to the one she was making, though. It's still very odd that you originally asserted that Maddow gets things wrong as often as right, then said you were basing that off of one-- and now two-- examples-- the second one of which is very iffy, given that you're citing a free-market think tank that opposes unions and is generally pro-corporate.

76 leftynyc  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:35:40pm

re: #62 Nevertires

Ok - for some strange reason I feel compelled to admit that I have a soft spot for Rachel Maddow - bordering on a minor crush.

Something about strong, smart, intelligent women...and especially ones who are/would be completely unvailable to me!


LOL - I'm a straight woman and feel the same way. I think intelligence turns me on. And her sharp wit. I mostly avoid cable news but her show is the one I make sure to TIVO (also Jon Stewart).

77 garhighway  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 1:36:38pm

re: #73 researchok

My principle quibble with Maddow is on budgetary matters she muddies the waters.

See this as well.

As I noted, she can make her point without having to do that.

I got this far into the Michigan link:

Maddow: “Rick Snyder has proposed an actual tax increase … on seniors and on poor people.”

Reality check:

“He is taking away exemptions on pensions and the earned income tax credit,” Hohman said. “This is not ‘raising taxes’ so much as removing special tax treatment. In fact, his plan lowers the actual tax rate on everyone from 4.35 percent to 4.25 percent, obviously including seniors and poor people. ‘Raising taxes on seniors and poor people’ implies that he’s carving out special niches for higher taxation, when the proposal removes special treatment.”

The "reality check" is incredibly dishonest. In every tax debate I have heard, any proposal to change any aspect of the tax code that would increase anyone's taxes is referred to by the GOP as a tax increase. If that terminology is appropriate when they don't like it, it is appropriate when they do like it. Good for the goose, as they say.

78 BishopX  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 2:45:21pm

re: #74 researchok

I'll try andf get the NPR link fixed.

My point was that Maddow implies there is no budget crisis and everything is solvent and that somehow, this is all a smokescreen. That just isn't the case.

As I said, she can make her case without muddying the waters.

Thanks for the NPR thing. I respect you too much too let you fall into the right wing link spam approach.

With regard to the budget crisis, any significant policy change change is going to have a bugetary impact. The existence of a budget crisis does not mean everything with an impact on the budget is a budget issue. Walker more or less admitted as much, at the start of the showdown Walker was saying that the bill would save 30 million out of a shortfall of 137 million this fiscal year, and 300 million out of a shortfall of 3.3 billion over the next two year budget. If walker had gotten every thing he wanted from the get go, and everything he said was accurate, Wisconsin would still have had a significant budget shortfall. Furthermore, when the state senate passed the final bill as a non-financial item, they pretty much admitted it wasn't about the budget. If it was then the bill would be illegal.

So either Maddow is right and it isn't about the budget or the bill is illegal.

79 wvng  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 3:10:19pm

re: #62 Nevertires

"Something about strong, smart, intelligent women...and especially ones who are/would be completely unvailable to me!" The very definition of a liberal. Conservatives want women they can dominate.

BTW, I agree. Rachel would be an absolute hoot to be around.

80 wvng  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 3:15:29pm

It appears that one cannot baselessly attack Rachel Maddow at LGF.

81 Robert O.  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 4:11:21pm

This is one of the best commentaries I have viewed in a long time!

The religious conservative movement in the US is merely following the ideological trajectory of their Muslim counterpart - they are opposite sides of the same coin. That we have civilized societies in Western countries is because of Bible revisionists. If it was not for them, we would have the death penalty for those who violate the Sabbath, or who blasphemed, or who committed adultery. There is absolutely no difference between Bible literalists and Quran literalists. The religious right in the US is merely a milder Christian version of the Taliban who have yet to reach the natural conclusion of their belief system.

82 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 23, 2011 4:29:03pm

re: #71 researchok

Here is one. There are others.

Except that Maddow Rebutted this on her show and proved that they are wrong!

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]


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