Fox Executive Pushed ‘Obama’s a Socialist’ Meme Even Though He Knew It Was False

Bill Sammon worked hard to promote a falsehood
Media • Views: 31,798

It’s not the slightest bit shocking to find out that Fox News executive Bill Sammon repeatedly pushed the idea that Barack Obama was a “socialist” — even though he himself thought the notion was “far-fetched.”

And even worse, when Sammon was confronted, he defended himself by saying that even though he knew the accusation was ridiculous, he doesn’t regret promoting it — because the false characterization caught on with the right wing base.

Sammon, a former Washington Times reporter, also made sure his troops got out the word. On Oct. 27, he sent an email to staffers highlighting what he described as “Obama’s references to socialism, liberalism, Marxism and Marxists” in his 1995 autobiography, Dreams From My Father.

In an interview, Sammon says his reference to “mischevious speculation” was “my probably inartful way of saying, ‘Can you believe how far this thing has come?’” The socialism question indeed “struck me as a far-fetched idea” in 2008. “I considered it kind of a remarkable notion that we would even be having the conversation.” He doesn’t regret repeatedly raising it on the air because, Sammon says, “it was a main point of discussion on all the channels, in all the media”—and by 2009 he was “astonished by how the needle had moved.”

The cynicism is astonishing, in someone who’s supposed to be a journalist. He knew he was promoting a “far-fetched” and dishonest smear, yet he did it anyway — and now says there was nothing wrong with it because the smear worked.

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131 comments
1 Kragar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:26:30pm

Define "false".
///

2 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:27:08pm

These are callous lying propagandists who openly admit it, and their robotic brainwashed base doesn't notice?

3 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:29:07pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

These are callous lying propagandists who openly admit it, and their robotic brainwashed base doesn't notice?

Nope, because they are far past the point of being able to tell real, tangible fact from fiction.

4 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:30:43pm

@DavidShuster

Spoke with a friend at Fox News. This reporter says several DC staffers are "aghast and embarassed" over Sammon + wish he'd resign.


Seriously? Are there Fox employees who aren't aware their whole job is spreading bogus bullshit?

5 lostlakehiker  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:30:56pm

Speaking of frauds...

"I was there. And now, Worby Groner Edelman & Napoli Bern is there for me."

That's the money line in an ad posted by the law firm WGENB.

Who was where? The photo shows a firefighter in uniform, holding a photo of the 911 scene.

But the man in question didn't give his consent to be used in that ad, he wasn't hired until 2004 and was not there, and the photo is a photoshop.

Fauxtography at its crudest.

Lawyers being who they are.

story here.

6 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:31:49pm

That last tag is right. Corruption.

People complain about media bias, but this goes way beyond bias.

7 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:33:04pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

These are callous lying propagandists who openly admit it, and their robotic brainwashed base doesn't notice?

Are you talking about Republican legislators?

8 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:33:09pm

Is it any wonder that politics these days seem less like polite disagreement and more like bloodsport when you have such dishonest journalism?

9 McSpiff  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:33:55pm

At what point does lying become libel?

10 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:34:27pm

re: #9 McSpiff

At what point does lying become libel?

Only when it is not political.

11 Alexzander  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:35:46pm

I suspect in excess of 90 percent of Americans support some forms of 'socialism' be it libraries, police and fire departments or even the military. The whole conversation is kind of a false start. Sure, Obama, like all presidents, endorses a balance between socialist and capitalist considerations.

12 aagcobb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:37:16pm

Goebbels would be proud.

13 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:38:38pm

This is yet another reason why Fox is such a sorry ass news outlet. The guy knew that this was bullshit but pushed it anyway and has no regrets since the right wing base bought the bullshit hook, line, & sinker. You know a professor of mine made an interesting point recently quoting an old professor of his. He said that there really is no such thing as a purely capitalistic or communist society. That really got me thinking that what we're truly arguing isn't so much ideology but degrees.

14 garhighway  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:41:06pm

re: #5 lostlakehiker

Speaking of frauds...

"I was there. And now, Worby Groner Edelman & Napoli Bern is there for me."

That's the money line in an ad posted by the law firm WGENB.

Who was where? The photo shows a firefighter in uniform, holding a photo of the 911 scene.

But the man in question didn't give his consent to be used in that ad, he wasn't hired until 2004 and was not there, and the photo is a photoshop.

Fauxtography at its crudest.

Lawyers being who they are.

story here.

Wow. Off topic in 5 posts.

Look at the squirrel!

15 garhighway  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:42:03pm

What's the over-and-under on "MSNBC does it, too!"?

16 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:43:17pm

It wasn't just Sammon who pushed this, of course -- he encouraged everyone at Fox News to do it, and practically every right wing media source joined in.

I have to apologize for falling for this line of crap myself during the campaign. I learned a lesson about Republican political tactics and the lowest common denominator, though, that I won't forget.

17 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:44:48pm

re: #15 garhighway

What's the over-and-under on "MSNBC does it, too!"?

That's a given. "So what if Fox did it, all the 'liberal' news stations do it too!" My guess? They'll point to Memogate as their proof...which, sadly, is a bit hard to argue against.

18 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:47:07pm

re: #17 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

That's a given. "So what if Fox did it, all the 'liberal' news stations do it too!" My guess? They'll point to Memogate as their proof...which, sadly, is a bit hard to argue against.

It's different, though, because in case of the fake memos, CBS News wasn't pushing something they knew to be false.

19 Jaerik  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:52:14pm

re: #3 Dreggas

Nope, because they are far past the point of being able to tell real, tangible fact from fiction.

More accurately, they don't care.

Being told all of your preconceptions are correct is far more entertaining than them actually being true.

20 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:53:28pm

re: #18 Charles

It's different, though, because in case of the fake memos, CBS News wasn't pushing something they knew to be false.

It's also different in the sense that it's not quite as tangible a fraud as pimping a forged document.

Fox will get away with this likely for the same reasons that people can get away with calling Hitler's brand of fascism a far-left ideology.

21 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:54:46pm

re: #18 Charles

It's different, though, because in case of the fake memos, CBS News wasn't pushing something they knew to be false.

Hmm, good point.

22 zora  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:57:28pm

re: #19 Jaerik

More accurately, they don't care.

Being told all of your preconceptions are correct is far more entertaining than them actually being true.

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

More than twice as many Tea Party conservatives desire to see the president’s policies fail (76%) than non-Tea Party conservatives (32%). (As a corollary, 53% of non-Tea Party conservatives wish to see the president’s policies succeed versus 18% of Tea Party conservatives.) Why might this be the case? Why do so many Tea Party conservatives wish to see the president’s policies fail, relative to non-Tea Party conservatives? Perhaps it’s because three quarters (75 %) of Tea Party conservatives believe that President Obama’s policies are socialist compared to 40% of non-Tea Party conservative, a disparity of 35 % points.

i believe that tea party conservatives=fox news conservatives.

23 Simply Sarah  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:58:37pm

re: #4 Killgore Trout

@DavidShuster


Seriously? Are there Fox employees who aren't aware their whole job is spreading bogus bullshit?

No, no. They're embarrassed that he's publicly admitting it. It's all supposed to be wink-nod stuff.
/maybe-kinda-probably not

24 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:58:46pm

Ain't no money in saying that the President is an American Centrist Democrat.

25 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:59:18pm

People always lack perspectivere: #22 zora

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

i believe that tea party conservatives=fox news conservatives.

It's an interesting correlation. Frankly to me as a student of history, the attempts to brand Obama as a radical leftist are laughable at their core.

26 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:00:35pm

re: #24 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ain't no money in saying that the President is an American Centrist Democrat.

Yeah, that is fairly boring.

27 Simply Sarah  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:03:57pm

re: #18 Charles

It's different, though, because in case of the fake memos, CBS News wasn't pushing something they knew to be false.

That being said, I think Rather had/has convinced himself that they were legit. Or so he claims. It sort of ended his career, so I guess I can understand he might have some trouble letting go. He's in goo...er, let's just say he clearly has a lot of company in that sort of thing.

28 thecommodore  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:05:02pm

re: #15 garhighway

What's the over-and-under on "MSNBC does it, too!"?

Take the over....WAY over...if you're talking about the number of times conservatives will say that in defense of what Sammon has been shown to do. The hypocrisy card is the biggest dodge in the conservative playbook. Even is MSNBC did it too, does that justify what Fox has done? Ask that of a conservative playing the hypocrisy card and their eyes will glaze over.

29 Girth  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:05:55pm

re: #25 HappyWarrior

People always lack perspective

It's an interesting correlation. Frankly to me as a student of history, the attempts to brand Obama as a radical leftist are laughable at their core.

Anyone to the left of Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe is a radical leftist these days, and quite frankly, we've got our eye on those two as well.

30 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:05:56pm

re: #24 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ain't no money in saying that the President is an American Centrist Democrat.

Fox, not alone, but more so than the others I'd guess, has led the way morphing politics into some bastard, quasi infomercial new form of entertainment predicated on misinformation, bias and lies....they have an agenda and are well compensated to express it....Fox is an enemy of freedom...I hate the MSM

31 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:06:22pm

re: #28 thecommodore

Take the over...WAY over...if you're talking about the number of times conservatives will say that in defense of what Sammon has been shown to do. The hypocrisy card is the biggest dodge in the conservative playbook. Even is MSNBC did it too, does that justify what Fox has done? Ask that of a conservative playing the hypocrisy card and their eyes will glaze over.

"Hey, if it helps get Obama out of office, I'm all for it."

/

32 Ming  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:07:19pm

Due to work, I spend many evenings in a hotel room, and often CNN and Fox are the only news channels available (the hotel doesn't get MSNBC). I find that Fox is practically unwatchable these days. The only theme I get from Fox is: let's see who can whine the loudest about what that bad, bad, evil boy Barack did today. If it's not time for CBS, NBC, or ABC news, I'll try to watch CNN, which may or may not be watchable. I might even channel-surf to Fox for a few seconds, but often I have to squeeze the remote control to get out of there as soon as possible. With Libya, Obama went in too early, and he went in too late, and he doesn't understand that America is unique, and he's doing something in concert with France (which on the face of it is BAD in the world of Fox), and of course he's spending a trillion dollars a day on all this because he hates America.

Worst of all is to later overhear people in conversations, parroting exactly these Fox News talking points.

33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:08:31pm

re: #28 thecommodore

The hypocrisy card is the biggest dodge in the conservative political playbook.

34 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:08:36pm

re: #29 Girth

Anyone to the left of Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe is a radical leftist these days, and quite frankly, we've got our eye on those two as well.

Yep, these idiots don't know anything about socialism or the fact that nunance exists within socialism and other ideologies.

35 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:10:19pm

re: #30 albusteve

Damn Steve! Great post!

36 thecommodore  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:10:30pm

re: #33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The hypocrisy card is the biggest dodge in the conservative political playbook.

Indeed, but conservatives use it so flagrantly without drawing any distinctions between the two situations. They are the kings of false equivilance.

37 Simply Sarah  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:11:19pm

re: #34 HappyWarrior

Yep, these idiots don't know anything about socialism or the fact that nunance exists within socialism and other ideologies.

When all you have is a copy of Atlas Shrugged, everyone looks like a socialist.

38 Girth  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:12:29pm

re: #34 HappyWarrior

Yep, these idiots don't know anything about socialism or the fact that nunance exists within socialism and other ideologies.

'Nuance' and 'compromise' are four-letter words you secular socialist commie bastard! Real Americans see things in black and white, and we all know that white is right.

39 TedStriker  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:13:22pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

These are callous lying propagandists who openly admit it, and their robotic brainwashed base doesn't notice?

re: #3 Dreggas

Nope, because they are far past the point of being able to tell real, tangible fact from fiction.

Not all who believe Fox News' most patently false shit are stupid, but they all really want to believe it. It's all about feelings, don'tchaknow?

40 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:13:25pm

re: #37 Simply Sarah

When all you have is a copy of Atlas Shrugged, everyone looks like a socialist.

That's because they, like Rand, seem to believe that only they matter, everybody else is a "parasite" looking to take away what's "theirs."

41 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:14:37pm

re: #36 thecommodore

I think we just notice it more when the other side's doing it.

42 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:15:11pm

institutions that knowingly create and support divisive agendas really suck....profit is a hell of an addiction, Fox would sell it's own mother for a buck and the more turmoil the better, just disregard the fact that deception and partisan bluster is the fuel that drives the engine of profit

43 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:15:12pm

re: #37 Simply Sarah

When all you have is a copy of Atlas Shrugged, everyone looks like a socialist.

Ha, funny you mention Atlas Shrugged since I have a friend re-reading it as a means for debate.

44 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:15:15pm

Sheesh. Reading the comments for Jim Hoft's brainless post about this story will make you lose all hope for humanity.

[Link: gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com...]

Hoft doesn't get it, again. He completely misses the point of the story, that Sammon knew he was promoting a "far-fetched" smear, and thinks it's all about a "Fox contributor" who said Obama is a socialist.

The density.

45 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:17:02pm

re: #44 Charles

Sheesh. Reading the comments for Jim Hoft's brainless post about this story will make you lose all hope for humanity.

[Link: gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com...]

Hoft doesn't get it, again. He completely misses the point of the story, that Sammon knew he was promoting a "far-fetched" smear, and thinks it's all about a "Fox contributor" who said Obama is a socialist.

The density.

Denial is a hell of a drug.

46 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:17:22pm

re: #44 Charles

Sheesh. Reading the comments for Jim Hoft's brainless post about this story will make you lose all hope for humanity.

[Link: gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com...]

Hoft doesn't get it, again. He completely misses the point of the story, that Sammon knew he was promoting a "far-fetched" smear, and thinks it's all about a "Fox contributor" who said Obama is a socialist.

The density.

Jim Hoft....Prince of Stupid

47 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:17:35pm

Just because he knew it was a lie and pushed a falsehood doesn't mean it's not true.

Ugh.

48 Girth  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:18:03pm

re: #44 Charles

Dude keeps tipping my "Stupid or Evil" scale back and forth from day to day. I really wish he'd just pick one and stick with it.

49 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:18:14pm

re: #44 Charles

Sheesh. Reading the comments for Jim Hoft's brainless post about this story will make you lose all hope for humanity.

[Link: gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com...]

Hoft doesn't get it, again. He completely misses the point of the story, that Sammon knew he was promoting a "far-fetched" smear, and thinks it's all about a "Fox contributor" who said Obama is a socialist.

The density.


Derp turns sarcasm into fact.

50 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:18:42pm

re: #48 Girth

Dude keeps tipping my "Stupid or Evil" scale back and forth from day to day. I really wish he'd just pick one and stick with it.

Set it in the window on hot days and you can cool your house with it.

51 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:18:49pm

re: #38 Girth

'Nuance' and 'compromise' are four-letter words you secular socialist commie bastard! Real Americans see things in black and white, and we all know that white is right.

Didn't Romney recently say nuance was a bad word in his eyes? Using nuance frankly has made history and my study of it that more fascinating to me.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:19:42pm

re: #41 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think we just notice it more when the other side's doing it.

This is true, and the emotional factor is different.

53 Jaerik  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:20:25pm

re: #43 HappyWarrior

Ha, funny you mention Atlas Shrugged since I have a friend re-reading it as a means for debate.

Be sure to point out how, even after 1000+ pages of extremely compelling dot-connecting on her ideology, Rand had to break the rules of physics and resort to inventing a unexplainable font of endless energy, tucked in two paragraphs just towards the back, to explain how the titans of industry in Galt's Gulch could survive without the contributions of the very moochers they have chose to leave behind.

54 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:21:33pm

re: #47 darthstar

Just because he knew it was a lie and pushed a falsehood doesn't mean it's not true.

Ugh.

assholes are fucking around with free speech, for a hefty paycheck
the epitome of despicable....responsibility is dead over there

55 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:23:08pm

re: #53 Jaerik

Be sure to point out how, even after 1000+ pages of extremely compelling dot-connecting on her ideology, Rand had to break the rules of physics and resort to inventing a unexplainable font of endless energy, tucked in two paragraphs just towards the back, to explain how the titans of industry in Galt's Gulch could survive without the contributions of the very moochers they have chose to leave behind.

I am not even gonna touch Atlas Shrugged. I remember reading the Fountainhead in high school philosophy then seeing an interview of Ayn Rand on Phil Donohue. My big problem with Randian philosophy isn't so much they don't think the government should help people (that's a legitmate pov, I may disagree with it but it's legit), it's that Rand actually thinks personal charity is immoral. I just remember being 16 years old and seeing that and thinking that she was out of her mind for thinking that.

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:23:09pm

re: #53 Jaerik

Be sure to point out how, even after 1000+ pages of extremely compelling dot-connecting on her ideology, Rand had to break the rules of physics and resort to inventing a unexplainable font of endless energy, tucked in two paragraphs just towards the back, to explain how the titans of industry in Galt's Gulch could survive without the contributions of the very moochers they have chose to leave behind.

For real? Good Lord. I have to read this book some day, but perhaps after being sedated.

57 Girth  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:23:42pm

re: #51 HappyWarrior

Didn't Romney recently say nuance was a bad word in his eyes? Using nuance frankly has made history and my study of it that more fascinating to me.

Black and white thinking is lazy. I have a real hard time respecting anyone who wants to take the whole world and sort it into two boxes.

58 aagcobb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:23:45pm

re: #27 Simply Sarah

That being said, I think Rather had/has convinced himself that they were legit. Or so he claims. It sort of ended his career, so I guess I can understand he might have some trouble letting go. He's in goo...er, let's just say he clearly has a lot of company in that sort of thing.

That's another difference from Fox. Sammon probably got a promotion for successfully pushing a falsehood.

59 celticdragon  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:23:56pm
The cynicism is astonishing, in someone who’s supposed to be a journalist. He knew he was promoting a “far-fetched” and dishonest smear, yet he did it anyway — and now says there was nothing wrong with it because the smear worked.

This is why I am terrified for the future of this country.

Propaganda works, and the American people are largely gullible and ignorant enough to buy it.

60 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:24:12pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

For real? Good Lord. I have to read this book some day, but perhaps after being sedated.

hurry hurry hurry before I go insane.

61 Simply Sarah  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:25:06pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

For real? Good Lord. I have to read this book some day, but perhaps after being sedated.

I'm pretty sure trying to do that would result in nap time after about 3 pages.

62 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:25:08pm

re: #54 albusteve

assholes are fucking around with free speech, for a hefty paycheck
the epitome of despicable...responsibility is dead over there

There's no law that says the news has to report the truth. As a public figure, President Obama is subject to these kinds of attacks. Fox merely needs to add a question mark and they are free to say whatever they want:
President Obama is a socialist?
President Obama is Kenyan born?
President Obama doesn't like American mustard?
Guilty.
Guilty.
Guitly.

63 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:25:51pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

For real? Good Lord. I have to read this book some day, but perhaps after being sedated.

I think Atlas Shrugged is highly over rated....just another post war blurb on political ideology and boring to the max...I don't think you are missing much, but then Madonna made a billion for no reason either....people are stupid

64 Girth  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:26:04pm

re: #53 Jaerik

Be sure to point out how, even after 1000+ pages of extremely compelling dot-connecting on her ideology, Rand had to break the rules of physics and resort to inventing a unexplainable font of endless energy, tucked in two paragraphs just towards the back, to explain how the titans of industry in Galt's Gulch could survive without the contributions of the very moochers they have chose to leave behind.

I read it when I was a teenager. I've recently been thinking of reading it again. I just started on The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo though, so I've got at least those three somewhat large books in front of me.

65 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:26:08pm

re: #60 HappyWarrior

hurry hurry hurry before I go insane.

I can't control my fingers, I can't control my brain.

66 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:27:34pm

re: #16 Charles

It wasn't just Sammon who pushed this, of course -- he encouraged everyone at Fox News to do it, and practically every right wing media source joined in.

I have to apologize for falling for this line of crap myself during the campaign. I learned a lesson about Republican political tactics and the lowest common denominator, though, that I won't forget.

I fell for it in the beginning too. I think most of us did.

67 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:28:29pm

Bah, if I wanna see Randian philosophy in action, I'll boot up my XBox and play another round of Bioshock.

68 freetoken  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:28:45pm

Meanwhile, back in Japan...


Fukushima radioactive fallout nears Chernobyl levels

Specifically, the amount of iodine and cesium the plant has released is of the same order of magnitude as that of Chernobyl, but the latter also released other material, including U and Pu.

Elsewhere it is being noted that the one reactor in which air pressure has not reached essentially that of the outdoors, specifically unit 1, is looking dangerous. Unit 1's reactor containment vessel and the inner reactor pressure vessel is believed to be intact, but now the pressure has risen too much. If they release the pressure (steam+air) to the outside then there will be another large emission of I and Cs, but if they don't release the pressure the containment vessel/RPV may blow anyway.

69 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:29:37pm

re: #66 Killgore Trout

I fell for it in the beginning too. I think most of us did.

Not me. Of course, I always thought the Republicans ran a desperate cocksucker who would sell his soul to the devil for a vote if he thought it would help him win, and instead simply put lipstick on a pig and still lost the election because he had no fucking clue what he would do if he became President, and America knew it.

70 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:30:34pm

re: #62 darthstar

There's no law that says the news has to report the truth. As a public figure, President Obama is subject to these kinds of attacks. Fox merely needs to add a question mark and they are free to say whatever they want:
President Obama is a socialist?
President Obama is Kenyan born?
President Obama doesn't like American mustard?
Guilty.
Guilty.
Guitly.

They used to do the "just asking questions and some people say" schticks back before they realized they could just drop all pretense of fairness, accuracy or honest reporting. It is an easy game to play...

Some people say that Republicans are scum who have no morality other than servitude to the almighty dollar.

Is it true that Sarah Palin quit being governor because she was an utterly self serving and craven incompetent who saw more earning potential at Fox?

Does Newt actually believe his own bullshit when he tells us his serial cheating and lying is a good thing that makes him a strong candidate?

Of course, all of those assertions are based in fact as opposed to the malicious fictions of the propagandists at Fox.

71 celticdragon  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:31:08pm

re: #55 HappyWarrior

I am not even gonna touch Atlas Shrugged. I remember reading the Fountainhead in high school philosophy then seeing an interview of Ayn Rand on Phil Donohue. My big problem with Randian philosophy isn't so much they don't think the government should help people (that's a legitmate pov, I may disagree with it but it's legit), it's that Rand actually thinks personal charity is immoral. I just remember being 16 years old and seeing that and thinking that she was out of her mind for thinking that.

Considering her infatuation with kidnapper/killer William Hickman, who became the basis for her ideal objectivist man, I would have to agree that she was out of her mind.

72 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:33:08pm

Heh, I guess I'm lucky. I never read any of Rand's crap in my younger years. Mostly just King and Lovecraft.

73 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:33:16pm

re: #71 celticdragon

Considering her infatuation with kidnapper/killer William Hickman, who became the basis for her ideal objectivist man, I would have to agree that she was out of her mind.

I had vaguely heard about this, wow that's really telling even more than her assertation that charity is immoral. I've said it a lot here but I always chuckle a little ot myself when a supposed devout religious person sings Rand's praises given that Rand not only was an Atheist but totally depised religion.

74 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:33:27pm

re: #70 LudwigVanQuixote

Palin knew her days as governor were numbered. The campaign did two things: First, it put her in the limelight and made her a cash cow beyond her wildest dreams. Second, it shined a light on her failures as a governor and suddenly people were going to pay attention to the fact that she had no clue what she was doing and was as corrupt as the day is long in June in Fairbanks. She had to quit, or she would have been run out of town long before the 2010 election.

75 zora  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:34:02pm

re: #71 celticdragon

Considering her infatuation with kidnapper/killer William Hickman, who became the basis for her ideal objectivist man, I would have to agree that she was out of her mind.

serial killer fan-girl turned conservative/libertarian icon. go figure.

76 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:34:19pm

re: #67 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Bah, if I wanna see Randian philosophy in action, I'll boot up my XBox and play another round of Bioshock.

Yeah that turned out really well...

77 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:34:34pm

re: #72 Slumbering Behemoth

Heh, I guess I'm lucky. I never read any of Rand's crap in my younger years. Mostly just King and Lovecraft.


Can't go wrong with either...unless you value nightmare-less sleep.

78 Jaerik  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:34:54pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

For real? Good Lord. I have to read this book some day, but perhaps after being sedated.

I went through a major Rand phase in my late teenage years. I still respect how well she takes an ideology and convinces you of its unerring truth via sympathetic fictional protagonists.

The combination of the reader's investment in the characters and the internal consistency in her ideological argument is so strong, you utterly miss how it fails to come together at the end. But once you start picking apart at the loose ends, the whole thing unravels.

79 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:35:50pm

re: #68 freetoken

Meanwhile, back in Japan...

Fukushima radioactive fallout nears Chernobyl levels

Specifically, the amount of iodine and cesium the plant has released is of the same order of magnitude as that of Chernobyl, but the latter also released other material, including U and Pu.

Elsewhere it is being noted that the one reactor in which air pressure has not reached essentially that of the outdoors, specifically unit 1, is looking dangerous. Unit 1's reactor containment vessel and the inner reactor pressure vessel is believed to be intact, but now the pressure has risen too much. If they release the pressure (steam+air) to the outside then there will be another large emission of I and Cs, but if they don't release the pressure the containment vessel/RPV may blow anyway.

Tanks for keeping up on this. I suppose this too has lasted longer than the News cycle's attention span...

80 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:36:03pm

I didn't read much fiction when I was younger but I have come to enjoy some literature from wirters who were riting about a decade or so before Rand. I just remember reading some short stories from the 1920's and becoming real interested in that era's literature. I think it stemmed from having read All Quiet on the Western front the summer between my sophomore and junior year. I was and am interested about how that generation responded to WWI. I was and still naturally interested in the WWII generation but I was interetsed in the struggles and experiences of their parents.

81 Simply Sarah  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:36:55pm

re: #78 Jaerik

I went through a major Rand phase in my late teenage years. I still respect how well she takes an ideology and convinces you of its unerring truth via sympathetic fictional protagonists.

The combination of the reader's investment in the characters and the internal consistency in her ideological argument is so strong, you utterly miss how it fails to come together at the end. But once you start picking apart at the loose ends, the whole thing unravels.

It's a lot easier to win debates when you only invite yourself. She's not close to the first, nor the last, to try and sell a line of thinking that way.

82 Girth  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:38:28pm

re: #78 Jaerik

I went through a major Rand phase in my late teenage years. I still respect how well she takes an ideology and convinces you of its unerring truth via sympathetic fictional protagonists.

The combination of the reader's investment in the characters and the internal consistency in her ideological argument is so strong, you utterly miss how it fails to come together at the end. But once you start picking apart at the loose ends, the whole thing unravels.

It feels so great to have a firm ideology and conviction in your intellectual principles. Then you test them against the real world and have to take a big step back.

83 Kragar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:38:50pm

re: #72 Slumbering Behemoth

Heh, I guess I'm lucky. I never read any of Rand's crap in my younger years. Mostly just King and Lovecraft.

Plus some Heinlein, Niven, and Barker.

84 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:39:36pm

re: #77 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Can't go wrong with either...unless you value nightmare-less sleep.

Bah! I've had horrific nightmares since early childhood, long before I ever read any horror novels or started listening to that satanic heavy metal. It's like my subconscious mind hates me.

Meh, most of my nightmares a pretty entertaining, though.

85 Jaerik  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:39:53pm

re: #81 Simply Sarah

It's a lot easier to win debates when you only invite yourself. She's not close to the first, nor the last, to try and sell a line of thinking that way.

The problem is, once you see how her argument fails to come together at the end, but watch hordes of people willingly leap across the remaining logical gaps purely for the sake of feeling they belong to an enlightened, cohesive ideology, it's really hard to conceptually separate it from a cult.

86 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:40:35pm

When I was 20, during the Cretaceous, I read The Fountainhead (we would never allow such in Catholic school). I had enough residual Christianity to be utterly repulsed, moved on to Dos Pasos.

87 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:41:35pm

re: #83 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Plus some Heinlein, Niven, and Barker.

just deleted a post referring to Heinlein as socio/politico commentary....you can sink your teeth into his stuff

88 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:42:12pm

re: #84 Slumbering Behemoth

Bah! I've had horrific nightmares since early childhood, long before I ever read any horror novels or started listening to that satanic heavy metal. It's like my subconscious mind hates me.

Meh, most of my nightmares a pretty entertaining, though.

For some reason, mine always seem to involve either spiders or zombies.

89 freetoken  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:42:50pm

re: #79 LudwigVanQuixote

Tanks for keeping up on this. I suppose this too has lasted longer than the News cycle's attention span...

And could last far longer. Even though the decay of the shortest lived isotopes now puts the radiation level down quite a bit from March 11, when the reactors shut down automatically and thus (theoretically anyway) the chain reactions stopped, the reality is that the rods in the reactors have since partially been destroyed by the oxidation of the zirconium alloy cladding, and some of the pellets may have melted.

TEPCO has been absolutely horrible in how they have managed the workers on the site, and now TEPCO's stock trading is halted. The company should probably be nationalized and criminal charges investigated for some of the management.

The French are sending in their heavy hitters, the US is sending more equipment (including robots)... and this story could go on for months. Much longer than the traditional American news cycle.

In the meantime global commerce is being affected, both by the tsunami and by Fukushima. Ships in Tokyo bay are collecting minute (very very small amounts) of radioactive particles (I and Cs), so when they enter other ports will set off alarms (put in place to counter terrorism), so now some companies are moving their shipping to Osaka... and so on and so on...

It is a real mess of a proportion that some are playing down, while others in the blogosphere (and media) are trying to be scaremongers.

Somehow the truth gets lost in between the cracks.

90 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:44:51pm

Fox News, helping making our country shittier and stupider every day. Thanks, Fox news!

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:45:17pm

re: #72 Slumbering Behemoth

Heh, I guess I'm lucky. I never read any of Rand's crap in my younger years. Mostly just King and Lovecraft.

Clive Barker? *__*

92 dragonfire1981  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:45:40pm

Since it's now been confirmed by those in power there, we can say with near 100% certainty that Fox IS the Ministry of Truth in America today.

93 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:46:29pm

re: #92 dragonfire1981

Since it's now been confirmed by those in power there, we can say with near 100% certainty that Fox IS the Ministry of Truth in America today.

yeah

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:47:27pm

re: #87 albusteve

just deleted a post referring to Heinlein as socio/politico commentary...you can sink your teeth into his stuff

Some of Heinlein's stuff is the worst sort of tripe if you actually break it down, and his attitudes about sex are frankly silly, but he could spin a yarn.

95 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:50:05pm

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

Some of Heinlein's stuff is the worst sort of tripe if you actually break it down, and his attitudes about sex are frankly silly, but he could spin a yarn.

unlike modern Americans, he does not fuck around....tripe is in the mind of the beholder

96 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:50:21pm

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

Some of Heinlein's stuff is the worst sort of tripe if you actually break it down, and his attitudes about sex are frankly silly, but he could spin a yarn.

It depends on if you are reading pre breakdown Heinlein or post breakdown. He cracked up while writing Stranger in a Strange Land.

IT is very hard to beat things like Past through Tomorrow, Starship Troopers or the Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Number of the Beast is best forgotten though...

97 Girth  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:50:52pm

re: #91 WindUpBird

Clive Barker? *__*

If you want to watch a hilariously bad movie with tons and tons of CGI blood, get your hands on The Midnight Meat Train. Based on a short story from vol. 1 of Books of Blood.

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

98 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:53:20pm

re: #97 Girth

If you want to watch a hilariously bad movie with tons and tons of CGI blood, get your hands on The Midnight Meat Train. Based on a short story from vol. 1 of Books of Blood.

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

Already own it, haven't watched it yet! Because I'm an idiot :D I've been looking forward to carving some time out for that and a couple other films

99 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:54:20pm

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

Some of Heinlein's stuff is the worst sort of tripe if you actually break it down, and his attitudes about sex are frankly silly, but he could spin a yarn.

I always wonder what Heinlein fans would think of Stephen Aylett. it must be like the guy in the escher painting as he steps between axes and ends up on the wall

100 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:54:45pm

re: #98 WindUpBird

Already own it, haven't watched it yet! Because I'm an idiot :D I've been looking forward to carving some time out for that and a couple other films

is that the new take on Custer?....I like cowboys and indians

101 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:56:39pm

re: #100 albusteve

is that the new take on Custer?...I like cowboys and indians

What, haven't you heard? Now it's Cowboys and Aliens.

102 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:58:15pm

re: #83 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I never really got into the sci-fi stuff, though I may pick up some Heinlein in future.

103 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:01:32pm

re: #102 Slumbering Behemoth

I never really got into the sci-fi stuff, though I may pick up some Heinlein in future.

The most fun I've had with any author has been Simon R. Green's "Nightside" series. The premise of the books pleases sci-fi fans, fantasy fans and those who like detective novels. And very funny.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

104 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:01:50pm

re: #101 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

What, haven't you heard? Now it's Cowboys and Aliens.

good grief....is Hollywood innovative or what?

105 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:02:25pm

re: #100 albusteve

is that the new take on Custer?...I like cowboys and indians

that reminds me, this KOREAN WESTERN (not kidding)


is a riot, and well made!

106 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:03:20pm

re: #105 WindUpBird

fans of Six String Samurai...well, fuck they've all already seen it

107 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:03:42pm

re: #62 darthstar

It's not "news" anymore. It's "infotainment".

108 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:03:49pm

re: #106 WindUpBird

fans of Six String Samurai...well, fuck they've all already seen it

One of these days, I have got to get around to watching that.

109 zora  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:06:08pm

re: #105 WindUpBird

i've actually seen this one. it's on netflix streaming. two stars, imo,

110 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:08:23pm

I think sci fi is just one of those genres I've never been able to get in to in both film and literature. I think I was one of the few kids in my generation that was not a Star Wars fan. Then again I did enjoy the Aliens & John Carpenter's The Thing though I wouldn't classify myself as a megafan of either except maybe The Thing but it's the genre transcending themes of paranoia and not being able to trust anyone that appeal to me more than the alien element. Though the idea of "the thing" is a fascinating one I admit. I tell you this much as I get older, I start to value great acting & dialog more and more. I really enjoyed the latest Christian Bale & Mark Wahlberg, The Fighter.

111 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:08:38pm

re: #105 WindUpBird

don't do cartoons anymore

112 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:13:25pm

re: #111 albusteve

don't do cartoons anymore

You would if you had kids or young adults floating around the house. Can you say anime?

113 RadicalModerate  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:16:31pm

Oh look, another case of a Wisconsin GOP member being a hypocritical douche:

GOP Rep: I'm 'Struggling' On My $174K Salary (VIDEO)

At a town hall meeting in Polk County, Wisconsin earlier this year, Rep. Sean Duffy (R-WI) was asked whether he'd vote to cut his $174,000 annual salary. Duffy sort of hedged, and went on to talk about how $174,000 really isn't that much for his family of seven to live on. Then he went on to say he supports cutting compensation for all public employees, along the lines of what Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R) has proposed for the Badger State.

Here's what Duffy says about his salary:

I can guarantee you, or most of you, I guarantee that I have more debt than all of you. With 6 kids, I still pay off my student loans. I still pay my mortgage. I drive a used minivan. If you think I'm living high on the hog, I've got one paycheck. So I struggle to meet my bills right now. Would it be easier for me if I get more paychecks? Maybe, but at this point I'm not living high on the hog.

Like all House members, Duffy makes $174,000 in taxpayer-funded salary every year. The Speaker makes a lot more ($223,500) and the party leaders and president pro tempore of the Senate make a bit more ($193,400.)

All of them make way more than most people in Polk County, Wisconsin do. The median household income there was $50,520 in 2008, according to Census data.

Whether or not Duffy is rich is a matter for debate. But that's apparently not a debate the Polk County GOP wanted to have, at least not on the wider Internet. Here's a screenshot of what the page containing the video looked like on Monday. Today, the video is gone.

114 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:21:39pm

re: #113 RadicalModerate

Oh look, another case of a Wisconsin GOP member being a hypocritical douche:

GOP Rep: I'm 'Struggling' On My $174K Salary (VIDEO)

Yet he's probably just fine with cutting the salaries of teachers. I am sorry but I have a hard time feeling bad for the economic plight of anyone who makes over 150K. I know it's different than being a billionaire or even millionaire but Duffy's a whiny hypocrite.

115 Simply Sarah  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:25:07pm

re: #113 RadicalModerate

Oh look, another case of a Wisconsin GOP member being a hypocritical douche:

GOP Rep: I'm 'Struggling' On My $174K Salary (VIDEO)

Well, of course. When it's his pay, it's *his* money. All the other public servants, however, are just taking *his* money from him. Now excuse me while I go hit my head against the wall.

116 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:30:03pm

re: #103 Walter L. Newton

Well, of course I like funny. Thanks for the link.

Your description reminded me of this film I haven't thought about in years, "Cast a Deadly Spell".

117 Martinsmithy  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:44:21pm

I would suggest an alternative title for this post.

"Dog bites man."

118 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:49:37pm

Reminds me of the journolist debacle.

119 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:55:47pm

What is ethics next to power? Nothing!

120 abolitionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:57:27pm

re: #16 Charles

[snip] I have to apologize for falling for this line of crap myself during the campaign. [snip]

I too would like to apologize for falling for such lines of crap during the campaign. Such lines as ..fifty-seven states ..bankrupt the coal industry ..sought out socialist professors ..constitution flawed ..my muslim faith ..a guy in the neighborhood, and Obama's reluctance/slowness to distance himself from extremist supporters such as Wright, Farrakhan, Ayers, etc.

I don't know if there was ever any serious intent to follow thru with the campaign rhetoric about "war crimes" indictments for Pres. Bush and members of his administration. I do know that that was fear-mongering in the first degree, and that had it happened, it would have done irreparable damage to our tradition of peaceful transitions of power. I also expect that such events would greatly undermine our national sovereignty.

I believe that most American voters are good and decent people, and that most tend to be willing, in the face of personal uncertainty and doubt, to give an unknown candidate the benefit of such doubt.

I also believe that Obama's campaign strategy was fine-tuned to abuse such decent tendencies, and that Obama was complicit in that strategy. In simple terms: More doubt + more controversy = more benefit. It worked quite well. Once.

Of course, nothing of that sort is going to work for the GOP. The theocracy meme isn't going to fly. I'm nuts so vote for me. Not going to fly. Special protections for creationist beliefs, ditto.

I personally believe that Obama will win the next election, and that he deserves to, on the basis of his leadership and performance during his first term.

121 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:57:41pm

re: #116 Slumbering Behemoth

Well, of course I like funny. Thanks for the link.

Your description reminded me of this film I haven't thought about in years, "Cast a Deadly Spell".

Damn. I love that flick. Like Who Framed Roger Rabbit? except being set in 1940s LA where toons are real it's set in 1940s LA and magic is real.

First time I saw Julianna Moore. Yummy.

122 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:30:02pm

re: #11 Alexzander

I suspect in excess of 90 percent of Americans support some forms of 'socialism' be it libraries, police and fire departments or even the military. The whole conversation is kind of a false start. Sure, Obama, like all presidents, endorses a balance between socialist and capitalist considerations.

Forgive me if I am in and out of this conversation, and sometimes late, but I do other things too.

I suspect you are wrong. You assume that almost all (90+%) Americans know the difference between government and business. If this were true there would be no Tea Party, and there would be precious few Republicans.

Come to think of it, there would be precious few Justices of the Supreme Court either who don't know the difference between a corporation and an individual citizen under the constitution.

123 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:48:14pm

These people are lying, liars who tell lies. Which simply means they are who we thought they were.

124 unrememberable  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:17:41pm

re: #11 Alexzander

I suspect in excess of 90 percent of Americans support some forms of 'socialism' be it libraries, police and fire departments or even the military. The whole conversation is kind of a false start. Sure, Obama, like all presidents, endorses a balance between socialist and capitalist considerations.

Are you saying that government-run military is a form of socialism? If not, then can you please clarify?

125 haakondahl  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:46:29pm

I don't care what he wrote in 1995. I watched the President's 2011 speech to the Chamber of Commerce, and the man is a Socialist. I was squeamish (oh, off and on) about it until then, but after that speech, who am I supposed to believe? The Socialist, or my own lyin' eyes?

126 haakondahl  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:54:11pm

re: #11 Alexzander

I suspect in excess of 90 percent of Americans support some forms of 'socialism' be it libraries, police and fire departments or even the military. The whole conversation is kind of a false start. Sure, Obama, like all presidents, endorses a balance between socialist and capitalist considerations.

None of the things you have mentioned are socialism. Very few American Presidents endorse any such corruption of our system. You seem to think that Socialism is the only thing which separates good people from hand-to-hand combat in the streets.

127 haakondahl  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:57:52pm

re: #122 Naso Tang
Gotta differ with you, NT (How ya been?). If more people knew (and valued) the difference between govt and business, there would be no public sector unions and no individual mandate. If you mean that those realities would necessitate less reaction to set things right, then I agree.

128 S'latch  Wed, Mar 30, 2011 6:21:02am

Socialism is a matter of degree. The United States of America is socialist to some degree. Every president of the United States of America held and followed some notions and concepts of governance which are socialist to some degree.

The error is to label President Obama as merely a Socialist. He isn't. The correct inquiry is the degree to which President Obama is led by socialist concepts and notions of governance.

President Obama's Socialist notions and concepts of governance are no greater in number or significance than those which were held by Presidents Thomas Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Lyndon Baines Johnson, or Richard Milhous Nixon.

It reminds me of this quote:

If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.

— Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow

129 Achilles Tang  Wed, Mar 30, 2011 6:50:18am

re: #127 haakondahl

Gotta differ with you, NT (How ya been?). If more people knew (and valued) the difference between govt and business, there would be no public sector unions and no individual mandate. If you mean that those realities would necessitate less reaction to set things right, then I agree.

Just fine. How ya been yourself? I did have a bit of a sabbatical, but people got stupid where I was so there I am back again. Funny thing, nobody noticed. Where have you been?

I'm not sure I follow you. Unions might or might not exist regardless (except where banned).

My point is simply that politicians who think a nation is to be run on the same basis and principles as a for profit business don't know what government or nation means. They are fools.

130 unrememberable  Wed, Mar 30, 2011 2:58:19pm

re: #128 Lawrence Schmerel

Every president of the United States of America held and followed some notions and concepts of governance which are socialist to some degree.

Can you give a few examples of how what you write would apply to, say, the first 5 POTUS's?

131 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 30, 2011 4:15:21pm

re: #130 unrememberable

Try engaging in a life thread instead of dropping in at the end.


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