Republicans Plan to Call Their Gov't Shutdown a 'Slowdown'

Republicans Plan to Call Their Gov’t Shutdown a ‘Slowdown’

PoliticsMarch 2011 • Views: 32,528

Republicans are getting ready to shut down the government, as they seem to do every time a Democrat is President. But this time they’re also trying to avoid blame for the actions they take; they think they can fool people by calling their shutdown something else: Dems say calling it a ‘slowdown’ won’t help GOP message.

Conservatives are turning to a new message in the escalating budget fight: A government shutdown is not actually a shutdown.

It’s a “slowdown,” according to the new refrain from Tea Party leader Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.). Or as House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) put it on Monday, the stalemate over spending could cause the government “to partially shut down.”

This is what happens when your entire world-view is based on irrational magical thinking. You think you can actually change things in the real world by giving them different names.

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130 comments

jamesfirecat Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:44:42am

A cat can have kittens in the oven but that don't make em biscuits...

iceweasel Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:45:19am

This is what happens when your entire world-view is based on irrational magical thinking. You think you can actually change things in the real world by giving them different names.

It's also Orwellian: let's call it the Ministry of Truth and we'll define 'truth'.

Ericus58 Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:47:08am

nope.... no Eisenhower to be found still.

Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:47:41am

This is a great strategy. I'm sure governments only employ liberals.

Kragar Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:47:44am

I can't wait to hear Bachmann's next poorly researched comparison. Maybe she'll say they're on strike.

moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:47:54am

Unfortunately, how the GOP spins words tends to work. I'll bet money that every news organization will call it a 'slowdown' instead of a shutdown. I'm sure the memo has certainly gone out around FOX News. Those Luntz talking points work, sad to say.

Varek Raith Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:50:31am

Up is cat.
Down is 42.
Left is :P
Right is quark.

HappyWarrior Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:50:32am

Do they actually think the American people want this and will respond positively to it?

Charles Johnson Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:51:31am

re: #8 HappyWarrior

Do they actually think the American people want this and will respond positively to it?

Of course not. That's why they're already trying to sleaze their way out of being blamed for it.

Kragar Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:52:35am

re: #7 Varek Raith

Up is cat.
Down is 42.
Left is :P
Right is quark.

One on't cross beams gone owt askew on treadle.

Girth Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:53:29am

Little children aren't getting what they want and of course their leader says that 'compromise' is a dirty word, so it's time to take their ball and go home.

HappyWarrior Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:53:39am

re: #9 Charles

Of course not. That's why they're already trying to sleaze their way out of being blamed for it.

Yeah I can see that. I am just amazed that after the first time they did and the backlash that they're stupid enough to try it again. It's going to make them look like brats who shut down the government whenever they don't get their way.

iceweasel Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:57:45am

The way to get people to buy what you're selling isn't to sell shit sandwiches and call them something else. Just stop selling shit sandwiches.

Killgore Trout Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:58:53am

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I can't wait to hear Bachmann's next poorly researched comparison. Maybe she'll say they're on strike.

Wait no longer......
Bachmann: Left 'Terribly Afraid' of Tea Party; Schumer, Dems Want Government Shutdown
(video)

Kragar Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:59:27am

re: #13 iceweasel

The way to get people to buy what you're selling isn't to sell shit sandwiches and call them something else. Just stop selling shit sandwiches.

Its a fecundi wrap.

iceweasel Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:00:13am

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its a fecundi wrap.

It's a falafel of fail.

Ericus58 Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:00:16am

re: #13 iceweasel

The way to get people to buy what you're selling isn't to sell shit sandwiches and call them something else. Just stop selling shit sandwiches.

can I get that with a dill pickle please?!
/

Seriously.... for whatever reason there was a change in the political make-up of Congress this past election - it sure wasn't for gridlock.
Fail.

moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:00:26am

re: #8 HappyWarrior

Do they actually think the American people want this and will respond positively to it?

I think the GOP has a successful record of making things that should be popular unpopular and vice versa, by using certain phrases. People like the idea of advanced directives, until you call them death panels. People like the public option until you call it government run health care. I'll bet money they have already done focus groups and have found that people don't like government shutdowns, but they do like the idea of a government slowdown. Like it or not, the GOP had a way with words. There are too many things that the GOP has promoted that caught on with the public that I didn't believe would to not be concerned that this bullshit won't either.

jamesfirecat Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:00:33am

re: #10 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

One on't cross beams gone owt askew on treadle.

My brain hurts!

Kragar Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:01:09am

re: #16 iceweasel

It's a falafel of fail.

The Pita Pocket of Pomposity

Girth Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:01:26am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

See, it's not a shutdown, it's a slowdown. Also, too, the Dems are the ones who are really causing it because they won't give us everything we want.

wrenchwench Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:02:35am

re: #20 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Pita Pocket of Pomposity

The Hamburger of Humbug.

Girth Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:02:44am

re: #16 iceweasel

It's a falafel of fail.

That almost sounds like it would be worth trying once.

iceweasel Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:03:40am

re: #20 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Pita Pocket of Pomposity

The brave patriots of the tea party are choking on the toast of tyranny!1

darthstar Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:04:02am

re: #10 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

One on't cross beams gone owt askew on treadle.

Funny you should say that...I'm watching Pootie Tang right now in fact.

moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:04:25am

re: #21 Girth

John Boehner like, Newt Gingrich is a terrible Speaker of the House. He doesn't have control of his people.

Cankles McCellulite Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:05:16am

re: #18 moderatelyradicalliberal

I was thinking the exact same thing. I am pretty sure they have done their homework on this.

Killgore Trout Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:05:25am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Wait no longer...
Bachmann: Left 'Terribly Afraid' of Tea Party; Schumer, Dems Want Government Shutdown
(video)

Hmmm.. If I'm understanding her correctly the Republicans are going to vote to shutdown the government if healthcare reform is not repealed. What a bunch of assholes.

Girth Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:05:49am

re: #25 darthstar

Funny you should say that...I'm watching Pootie Tang right now in fact.

*cough* Monty Python, the beginning of the Spanish Inquisition sketch *cough*

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:07:00am

re: #26 moderatelyradicalliberal

John Boehner like, Newt Gingrich is a terrible Speaker of the House. He doesn't have control of his people.

The house has passed a budget, it's the senate (Harry Reid, remember?) that hasn't. It's going to be a tougher argument this time around for the dems to blame the repubs. It's going to be hard to blame republicans for the democrats failure to pass a budget last year. The senate hasn't passed a budget since April of '09. Kinda hard to get around that.

HappyWarrior Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:07:07am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Wait no longer...
Bachmann: Left 'Terribly Afraid' of Tea Party; Schumer, Dems Want Government Shutdown
(video)

Call it a political pet peeve but I had when politicans say one side is afraid of the other. I don't want Republicans to fear Obama or the Democratic leadership. Just a personal peeve of mine. I just find it lame and part of the WWFing of politics where showmanship matters more than results.

moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:07:07am

re: #25 darthstar

Funny you should say that...I'm watching Pootie Tang right now in fact.

LOL! You don't know what he's saying, but you always know what he means!

Kragar Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:08:12am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Wait no longer...
Bachmann: Left 'Terribly Afraid' of Tea Party; Schumer, Dems Want Government Shutdown
(video)

Listen...They're snickering in abject terror.

RIRedinPA Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:09:01am

re: #8 HappyWarrior

Yes, yes they do.

BishopX Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:10:13am

re: #30 RogueOne

The trick I think is going to be having the senate pass the budget on at the 11th hour, then get it vetoed.

moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:10:13am

re: #30 RogueOne

The house has passed a budget, it's the senate (Harry Reid, remember?) that hasn't. It's going to be a tougher argument this time around for the dems to blame the repubs. It's going to be hard to blame republicans for the democrats failure to pass a budget last year. The senate hasn't passed a budget since April of '09. Kinda hard to get around that.

Then why are they playing word games by calling a showdown a slowdown? Sounds like the GOP is worried about the Democrats being able to get around it. Why not just stand by the budget the House passed instead of bullshitting?

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:12:10am

re: #35 BishopX

The trick I think is going to be having the senate pass the budget on at the 11th hour, then get it vetoed.

That wouldn't surprise me. I see dems and repubs both agitating for a shutdown because they both think it's politically advantageous. The dems can say the repubs are evil and repubs can say dems aren't serious about the deficit. Win/Win for them, semi-lose for us.

Girth Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:12:28am

re: #31 HappyWarrior

Call it a political pet peeve but I had when politicans say one side is afraid of the other. I don't want Republicans to fear Obama or the Democratic leadership. Just a personal peeve of mine. I just find it lame and part of the WWFing of politics where showmanship matters more than results.

That's not how it's meant. It's political chest-thumping.

It's saying that the reason that the left laughs at things that people like Palin or Bachmann say is not because Palin and Bachmann say ridiculously stupid things, but that they actually say powerful things and the left is afraid of their ideas. It's a combination of drinking the Kool-Aid and rallying the base.

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:13:27am

re: #37 RogueOne

Can you point out the Democrats who are agitating for a shutdown?

HappyWarrior Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:13:50am

re: #38 Girth

That's not how it's meant. It's political chest-thumping.

It's saying that the reason that the left laughs at things that people like Palin or Bachmann say is not because Palin and Bachmann say ridiculously stupid things, but that they actually say powerful things and the left is afraid of their ideas. It's a combination of drinking the Kool-Aid and rallying the base.

Right, I just think it's stupid to act as if me as a liberal am "afraid" of Palin and Bachmann and their ideas. Big difference between being afraid and thinking their ideas are lunancy.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:14:07am

re: #36 moderatelyradicalliberal

Are you asking why do politicians make up phrases to stretch the truth? It's quicker to explain why the sky is blue.//

Ericus58 Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:14:24am

re: #30 RogueOne

The house has passed a budget, it's the senate (Harry Reid, remember?) that hasn't. It's going to be a tougher argument this time around for the dems to blame the repubs. It's going to be hard to blame republicans for the democrats failure to pass a budget last year. The senate hasn't passed a budget since April of '09. Kinda hard to get around that.

There is some truth to that. I'll give you the point.

BUT - when an "Emergency Session" is called specific to some piddly-ass idea on de-funding NPR.....

In my world, an emergency session is called to respond to a National issue of major proportion. NOT to be wasted on a partisan stunt.
EPIC FAIL.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:14:28am

re: #39 Obdicut

Can you point out the Democrats who are agitating for a shutdown?

You don't think Schumer wants a shutdown?

iossarian Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:14:36am

re: #39 Obdicut

Can you point out the Democrats who are agitating for a shutdown?

By not agreeing to do everything that the Republicans demand, it is clear that the Democrats are deliberately bringing us to a shutdown.

recusancy Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:14:57am

re: #39 Obdicut

Can you point out the Democrats who are agitating for a shutdown?

Not bloggers. Actual elected officials with actual power.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:15:25am

re: #42 Ericus58

There is some truth to that. I'll give you the point.

BUT - when an "Emergency Session" is called specific to some piddly-ass idea on de-funding NPR...

In my world, an emergency session is called to respond to a National issue of major proportion. NOT to be wasted on a partisan stunt.
EPIC FAIL.

That's the house bill. The senates job is to pass a bill then negotiate with the house. Until they can get a bill of their own passed none of this is going anywhere.

jamesfirecat Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:15:49am

re: #43 RogueOne

You don't think Schumer wants a shutdown?

Based on what facts do you draw this conclusion on?

I mean there's are Republicans who will OUT AND OUT SAY that they want a shut down....

Varek Raith Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:17:36am

re: #43 RogueOne

You don't think Schumer wants a shutdown?

You're a mind reader?
Neat.

iossarian Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:17:38am

re: #43 RogueOne

You don't think Schumer wants a shutdown?

I think he may well believe that the Dems will do well politically out of a shutdown, but that doesn't mean he wants one.

On the other hand, I wonder if you can name one item of disagreement in the past 12 months on which Republicans have compromised in order to reach a deal with Democrats.

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:18:37am

re: #43 RogueOne

You don't think Schumer wants a shutdown?

No, I don't. And I don't think he's agitating for it, either.

Can you show me any Democrat who's agitating for a shutdown?

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:19:34am

re: #47 jamesfirecat

Based on what facts do you draw this conclusion on?

I mean there's are Republicans who will OUT AND OUT SAY that they want a shut down...

Let's be a little realistic here. If the dems think the repubs will get blamed for a shutdown, and they do, why would they work to get a decent compromise passed? All they've talked about for weeks is how there is a shutdown coming and it's the repubs fault.

Secondly, why did they choose to hold this fight this year instead of last year when they had an overwhelming majority? This budget fight should have been over 8 months ago.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:20:42am

re: #49 iossarian

I think he may well believe that the Dems will do well politically out of a shutdown, but that doesn't mean he wants one.

On the other hand, I wonder if you can name one item of disagreement in the past 12 months on which Republicans have compromised in order to reach a deal with Democrats.

They voted on 2 budgets at the beginning of march and the senate republican bill got more votes than the dem version. The dems are in charge of the senate, it's their responsibility to get something passed not the repubs.

moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:21:10am

re: #38 Girth

That's not how it's meant. It's political chest-thumping.

It's saying that the reason that the left laughs at things that people like Palin or Bachmann say is not because Palin and Bachmann say ridiculously stupid things, but that they actually say powerful things and the left is afraid of their ideas. It's a combination of drinking the Kool-Aid and rallying the base.

I am afraid of their ideas. I think they are horrible for the poor, the working class and the middle class. I think they want to go back to the Victorian era both economically and socially. I think every non-rich, non-white, non-male, non-Christian, and non-heterosexual American should be deathly afraid of these people and their policies. As far as I'm concerned we are one president and 4 senators away from the US turning back the clock back 100 years. If the left feared the right like the right fears the left, 2010 would not have played out like it did. There are a lot of people in OH, WI, MI and FL who sure wish they had taken what the GOP was planning on doing in their states a little more seriously and gotten off their asses. I don't need to be in love with Democrats all of the time, I just know I don't want to live in a country in which these radicals get their way.

Lidane Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:21:37am

re: #4 prononymous

This is a great strategy. I'm sure governments only employ liberals.

Heh.

BishopX Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:22:23am

re: #51 RogueOne

This isn't a budget fight. This is a continuing resolution fight. The democrats have so far agreed to about 30 billion in cuts. The House republicans are holding out for 60 which is 30 more than the original HR 1 bill included. That's pretty good optics for the democrats.

Kronocide Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:22:28am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

What a moron. Bachmann calls the 'Japan nuclear issue' 'fallout.'

She doesn't understand the nuclear issue.

Is she this stupid on budgetary issues? She seems to campaign on Fox endlessly, though she also said 'we don't want this thing political, we're focused on dealing with problems.'

Girth Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:22:56am

Reminds me of last night, was watching Maddow while finishing up on the treadmill at the gym. When I was done, guy asks if I'm done with the TV, say sure it's all yours and he flips over to Hannity. I smiled and chuckled a little and within five seconds Hannity is going off on how the Dems won't submit a serious budget. A serious budget, he says would basically give the Repubs all the cuts that they want. That's when I left, because I was about to say out loud, "No you dumb shit, a serious budget would cut defense, which you wouldn't touch in a million years."

The GOP talks the talk about deficits, but that's all. They will never walk the walk.

goddamnedfrank Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:23:48am

re: #51 RogueOne

Secondly, why did they choose to hold this fight this year instead of last year when they had an overwhelming majority?

Because the Republicans filibustered damned near everything, remember? You get to play stupid or dishonest, pick one.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:24:36am

re: #50 Obdicut

No, I don't. And I don't think he's agitating for it, either.

Can you show me any Democrat who's agitating for a shutdown?

I think that's naive. Howard Dean even said publicly that they should be rooting for a shutdown and he's right. If they think it's the first budget battle and it will immediately damage the republicans why would they even try to get a compromise. As far as I can tell, they haven't tried very hard.....they haven't passed a budget since april of '09. Why is that?

HappyWarrior Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:26:03am

re: #57 Girth

Reminds me of last night, was watching Maddow while finishing up on the treadmill at the gym. When I was done, guy asks if I'm done with the TV, say sure it's all yours and he flips over to Hannity. I smiled and chuckled a little and within five seconds Hannity is going off on how the Dems won't submit a serious budget. A serious budget, he says would basically give the Repubs all the cuts that they want. That's when I left, because I was about to say out loud, "No you dumb shit, a serious budget would cut defense, which you wouldn't touch in a million years."

The GOP talks the talk about deficits, but that's all. They will never walk the walk.

Of course, they won't cut the defense budger and if they did agree, they'd try to blame the Democrats for it. But yeah they talk about being the fiscally responsible ones and I see no proof that they are any more fiscally responsible than Democrats.

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:26:53am

re: #59 RogueOne

So the answer is "No", you can't actually show democrats agitating for the shutdown.

Didn't think so.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:27:22am

re: #55 BishopX

This isn't a budget fight. This is a continuing resolution fight. The democrats have so far agreed to about 30 billion in cuts. The House republicans are holding out for 60 which is 30 more than the original HR 1 bill included. That's pretty good optics for the democrats.

No, this is the '11 budget fight, a budget that was supposed to be passed by sept '10. The repubs have said they've allowed 2 continuances and they aren't going to allow anymore.

The dems might be right on this, they were the last time. The repubs could take a beating over a shutdown. The risk as I see it is the world (i.e., the media) has changed a lot since 1995 and the dems might be shooting themselves in the foot.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:30:23am

re: #61 Obdicut

So the answer is "No", you can't actually show democrats agitating for the shutdown.

Didn't think so.

You read between the lines a lot and somehow the idea that the dems are quietly rooting for a shutdown has passed you by? Maybe you can explain to me how it's the republicans fault that the dems didn't pass a budget last year. If you believe a shutdown would be the fault of republicans you're going to have to explain that portion somehow.

moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:31:05am

re: #62 RogueOne

No, this is the '11 budget fight, a budget that was supposed to be passed by sept '10. The repubs have said they've allowed 2 continuances and they aren't going to allow anymore.

The dems might be right on this, they were the last time. The repubs could take a beating over a shutdown. The risk as I see it is the world (i.e., the media) has changed a lot since 1995 and the dems might be shooting themselves in the foot.

I think Congress as a whole is pretty unpopular, the person who will win if a showdown occurs will be the president, not either party in the House. The Congress is dysfunctional no matter who runs it. And it's of their own making because they make their own rules. They will all look like children who can't do their jobs and the president will come across as a grown up who is waiting for the children to send him a budget he can sign.

Kronocide Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:32:47am

re: #59 RogueOne

Howard Dean even said publicly that they should be rooting for a shutdown and he's right.

That's not what he said literally or in context. Why do you assume since Howard Dean says so every other Democrat believes so?

Buck Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:33:35am

re: #61 Obdicut

So the answer is "No", you can't actually show democrats agitating for the shutdown.

Didn't think so.

I think he did answer you. And the answer was yes he can name a democrat that "is agitating for the shutdown".

I mean the word "agitating" is imprecise, but the Howard Dean example is a good one. Sen. Charles Schumer admitting that the caucus has instructed it's members to use the word "extreme" as it relates to the tea party and the spending cuts.... that sounds like agitation.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:33:36am

re: #64 moderatelyradicalliberal

I think you're right. The congress and the senate are going to take a beating in the polls but their numbers are already so low both sides see themselves walking away a winner in the long run. The person who would come out looking the best in all of this would be the president and a shutdown would set him up perfectly for the '12 budget fight which starts fairly soon.

Kronocide Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:35:32am

re: #63 RogueOne

You read between the lines a lot and somehow the idea that the dems are quietly rooting for a shutdown has passed you by?

Projection, you want to believe this just like you are potraying Dems to wanting to believe this.

Maybe you can explain to me how it's the republicans fault that the dems didn't pass a budget last year.

None of us have forgotten the Filibuster Marathon of last year. Have you?

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:35:57am

re: #65 BigPapa

That's not what he said literally or in context. Why do you assume since Howard Dean says so every other Democrat believes so?

No, I think it makes sense politically. They could have completely avoided this whole argument by getting it done last year, like they were supposed to, and they chose not to. If the dems thought they were the ones who were going to get blamed they'd get a bill passed.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:37:40am

re: #68 BigPapa

Projection, you want to believe this just like you are potraying Dems to wanting to believe this.

None of us have forgotten the Filibuster Marathon of last year. Have you?

There was no budget filibuster and they had 59 votes if they chose to try. They didn't bring a budget up for a vote until March 9 of this year.

moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:38:38am

re: #69 RogueOne

No, I think it makes sense politically. They could have completely avoided this whole argument by getting it done last year, like they were supposed to, and they chose not to. If the dems thought they were the ones who were going to get blamed they'd get a bill passed.

I'll admit it would seem to create an unfortunate pattern for what happens when there is a GOP House or Congress and a Democratic president. But overall the entire Congress will take a beating for being the most dysfunctional branch of government.

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:38:50am

re: #63 RogueOne

You read between the lines a lot and somehow the idea that the dems are quietly rooting for a shutdown has passed you by?

Yes, it has. A shutdown will fuck up all sorts of things. No matter how much it'll benefit the Democrats politically, I don't think they want it to happen. What's bizarre is how much the GOP appears to want it.

Maybe you can explain to me how it's the republicans fault that the dems didn't pass a budget last year.

It's not. They should have, as Obama begged them to do, back when they had a filibuster-proof majority. They dropped the ball in a big way.

If you believe a shutdown would be the fault of republicans you're going to have to explain that portion somehow.

Um, no. That's not really all that connected. I mean, sure, the Democrats could have looked into the future and seen that enough crazies would be elected as Republicans to make a shutdown an actual possibility. But I don't think anyone expected them to be as crazy as they are.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:39:52am

re: #65 BigPapa

That's not what he said literally or in context. Why do you assume since Howard Dean says so every other Democrat believes so?

That is what he said, I didn't take anything out of context. I also said he's right.

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:40:05am

re: #66 Buck

Dean is not a Democratic official.

Sen. Charles Schumer admitting that the caucus has instructed it's members to use the word "extreme" as it relates to the tea party and the spending cuts... that sounds like agitation.

Agitation for what?

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:40:45am

re: #73 RogueOne

You did, in fact, take it out of context.

“From a partisan point of view, I think it would be the best thing in the world to have a shutdown,” said Dean. He added that as a statesman, he is not rooting for a shutdown because of its harmful effect on the country.

Charles Johnson Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:42:52am

re: #73 RogueOne

That is what he said, I didn't take anything out of context. I also said he's right.

In the very next sentence, Dean said he was not in favor of a shutdown.

Yes, you did take it out of context.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:46:20am

re: #72 Obdicut

Yes, it has. A shutdown will fuck up all sorts of things. No matter how much it'll benefit the Democrats politically, I don't think they want it to happen. What's bizarre is how much the GOP appears to want it.

You're more idealistic than I am obviously. I don't think senators start off every morning going to work to do what's best for the country, they do what's best for their re-election and their party. Schumer is in charge of getting dem senators re-elected and he see's an easy way to tar the repubs without getting any of the mess on him.

The bottom line is, right now, the only people responsible for not getting a budget passed are the senate dems. I might be guilty of being overly cynical but it looks like a semi-smart political move on their part and it would set them up nicely for the '12 budget battle.

HappyWarrior Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:47:29am

Yeah, seems like the Dean quote was taken out of context and I say that as someone who is not a fan of his.

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:50:00am

re: #77 RogueOne

I'm not at all idealistic. I'm not sure what you think idealism has to do with this.

I don't think senators start off every morning going to work to do what's best for the country, they do what's best for their re-election and their party.

You seriously think in terms that black and white?

No senator has any issue that's actually important to them?

The bottom line is, right now, the only people responsible for not getting a budget passed are the senate dems.

Yes, that's what Boehner is saying. It's weird to see it spring up and get repeated all over the blogosphere so quickly. It's such a transparent attempt to put blame on the Democrats by seizing a particular moment in the narrative and saying 'See, they're the ones screwing everything up!'

Bizarre.

I still can't believe that we're seriously trying to cut lots of stuff from the budget right as we shakily come out of a recession. It's like we didn't learn jack shit from the recovery from the Great Depression.

Charleston Chew Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:50:28am

This is what happens when your entire world-view is based on irrational magical thinking. You think you can actually change things in the real world by giving them different names.

I have to grudgingly admit that they've made it work for them many times before. Frank Luntz made his career out of it. He helped get the estate tax to be called the death tax, and help change global warming into climate change.

He's the guy who literally redefined the term "Orwellian" to have positive connotations. Surely that's a level of double-talk so powerful it would tear the very fabric of space and time.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:50:36am

re: #76 Charles

In the very next sentence, Dean said he was not in favor of a shutdown.

Yes, you did take it out of context.

I disagree. My exact words:

Howard Dean even said publicly that they should be rooting for a shutdown and he's right.

Politically it would be the smart move if they believe they won't get any of the blame.

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:51:10am

re: #78 HappyWarrior

Dean is also not anything in the Democratic party.

goddamnedfrank Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:51:28am

re: #73 RogueOne

That is what he said, I didn't take anything out of context. I also said he's right.

I see you chose dishonest, bad call, you should have stuck with stupid.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:52:02am

re: #79 Obdicut

You believe a politician will set a political win aside for the good of the country, I don't see that happening with more than a very few politicians. It certainly is not the norm.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:54:21am

re: #83 goddamnedfrank

I see you chose dishonest, bad call, you should have stuck with stupid.

What context do you believe I missed? Did dean not say it would be the politically smart move? Did he not say that they "should be rooting for a shutdown"?

The link from the National Journal says:

Howard Dean, the former chairman of the Democratic National Committee, sees an upside to a looming government shutdown – at least politically.

“If I was head of DNC, I would be quietly rooting for it,” said Dean, speaking on a National Journal Insider’s Conference panel Tuesday morning. “I know who’s going to get blamed – we’ve been down this road before.”

That sounds exactly like what I said.

Varek Raith Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:55:13am

re: #85 RogueOne

Funny how you're turning this all on the Dems.
Come on, be proud of the GOP!

HappyWarrior Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:55:15am

re: #82 Obdicut

Dean is also not anything in the Democratic party.

Yep, when I saw the story last night. It was the first time I've heard of anything involving him in quite some time.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:56:33am

re: #86 Varek Raith

Funny how you're turning this all on the Dems.
Come on, be proud of the GOP!

How about assigning blame where it's due? Who had the responsibility to pass a budget last year and didn't get it done? Who hadn't held a budget vote for almost 2 years? How is the senate dems failure to do their jobs the fault of house republicans?

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:57:22am

re: #84 RogueOne

You believe a politician will set a political win aside for the good of the country, I don't see that happening with more than a very few politicians. It certainly is not the norm.

Again: That's a simplistic black-and-white view that doesn't even begin to approach the complexities of governance.

iossarian Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:57:30am

re: #85 RogueOne

What context do you believe I missed? Did dean not say it would be the politically smart move? Did he not say that they "should be rooting for a shutdown"?

The link from the National Journal says:

That sounds exactly like what I said.

No, he did not say that they "should be rooting for a shutdown", unless I've missed that quotation somewhere. Those appear to be your words, not Dean's.

If you're going to be putting things in quotation marks, the usual convention is that they are actual quotations. As in, things people actually said.

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:58:00am

re: #88 RogueOne

It's not. The Democrats dropped the ball on getting a budget passed.

The budget that the GOP is now trying to pass is, entirely, their own deal. Arbitrary, asinine spending cuts that will wind up costing us more money in the end-- weee.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:58:11am

re: #89 Obdicut

Again: That's a simplistic black-and-white view that doesn't even begin to approach the complexities of ~~governance~~ politics.

You were almost right./

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:59:16am

re: #90 iossarian

Again, from the link provided by someone else:

Howard Dean: Democrats Should Be 'Quietly Rooting' for Shutdown
[Link: www.nationaljournal.com...]

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:01:23am

re: #92 RogueOne

Whatever. Seriously, thinking that politicians simply always slavishly follow some reflexive sense of what's politically best is as dumb as thinking that any given business only does what's profitable, and there's nothing else about it.

There's plenty of businesses which, while making money, set out to actually make a good product too. There's plenty of politicians who, while being political animals, have their pet projects and directions they want to see government go in. I may think that he's crazy and tiredly sophomoric, but Rand Paul's vision for government seems entirely sincere to me. He really believes that the Civil Rights legislation overstepped the bounds of what federal government should do.

iossarian Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:01:27am

re: #93 RogueOne

Again, from the link provided by someone else:

Howard Dean: Democrats Should Be 'Quietly Rooting' for Shutdown
[Link: www.nationaljournal.com...]

Nowhere in that article is Dean quoted using the word "should". The text you use for the link clearly has that word outside of its quotation marks, which speaks for itself IMO.

Charles Johnson Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:02:20am

re: #81 RogueOne

I disagree. My exact words:

Politically it would be the smart move if they believe they won't get any of the blame.

You can disagree all you like, but it's obvious that you're quoting out of context to promote a dishonest frame.

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:03:01am

re: #91 Obdicut

It's not. The Democrats dropped the ball on getting a budget passed.

The budget that the GOP is now trying to pass is, entirely, their own deal. Arbitrary, asinine spending cuts that will wind up costing us more money in the end-- weee.

I think you're confusing 2 different issues.

A.) The house republicans passed their budget, the senate dems have not. The last budget vote they had more votes went to the senate republicans plan than the dems. It's the dems responsibility to get a budget passed in the senate. If the senate had passed a budget bill and this fight were going on in reconciliation you would have a point, but it's not.

B.) The current fight is over the 2011 budget which they should have passed last september.

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:03:27am

re: #93 RogueOne

So again, your answer, is no, Dean did not say that "Democrats Should Be Quietly Rooting for Shutdown".

What he said was that if he was the head of the DNC, he would be. He added that he, now, as a statesman, is not rooting for a government shutdown.

So you have a hypothetical example of someone who is not anyone in the Democratic establishment saying that if he were in a different job, he'd vote for the shutdown-- but that he's not, actually, rooting for a shutdown.

He's correctly assessing that the Tea Party and the GOP will be blamed for the shutdown, and that that will partisanly benefit the Democrats.

Kronocide Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:03:59am

“If I was head of DNC, I would be quietly rooting for it,” said Dean, speaking on a National Journal Insider’s Conference panel Tuesday morning. “I know who’s going to get blamed – we’ve been down this road before.”

100

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:06:36am

re: #97 RogueOne

What are you talking about? I know the Senate hasn't passed their budget. I also know that the spending levels in the House bill are set at levels that Obama said he would veto if it were submitted to him.

Let me guess-- now you're going to say that if Obama vetoed it, he'd be responsible for the government shutdown.

101

Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:09:39am

Within the political sphere I think it is accurate to say that a partisan democrat should hope for a government shutdown. Poll numbers show that Republicans will take most of the flack for a shutdown. A partisan on either side would love to press an advantage like that.

However, Republicans will take most of the flack for a shutdown because they they actually think a shutdown would be a good thing for our America. They aren't trying to avoid a shutdown because they don't seem to think government does anything useful besides preventing abortions.

102

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:13:18am

re: #96 Charles

You can disagree all you like, but it's obvious that you're quoting out of context to promote a dishonest frame.

Again, I disagree. I have the same view of deans words as the National Journal,
RCP: [Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

Yahoo: [Link: news.yahoo.com...]

and Politico: [Link: www.politico.com...]

and TPM:
Howard Dean: 'Quietly Rooting' For Gov't Shutdown
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

If I'm taking him out of context I'm in good company.

103

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:14:30am

re: #100 Obdicut

What are you talking about? I know the Senate hasn't passed their budget. I also know that the spending levels in the House bill are set at levels that Obama said he would veto if it were submitted to him.

Let me guess-- now you're going to say that if Obama vetoed it, he'd be responsible for the government shutdown.

No. You would be able to blame republicans if the dems had already passed a budget and this fight was about how to consolidate the two. Until that time the only people responsible for the senate bill are the dems.

104

Kronocide Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:16:17am

I disagree. My exact words:
Howard Dean even said publicly that they should be rooting for a shutdown and he's right.

“If I was head of DNC, I would be quietly rooting for it,” said Dean, speaking on a National Journal Insider’s Conference panel Tuesday morning.

They is not I is not they.

105

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:17:55am

re: #101 prononymous

Within the political sphere I think it is accurate to say that a partisan democrat should hope for a government shutdown. Poll numbers show that Republicans will take most of the flack for a shutdown. A partisan on either side would love to press an advantage like that.

However, Republicans will take most of the flack for a shutdown because they they actually think a shutdown would be a good thing for our America. They aren't trying to avoid a shutdown because they don't seem to think government does anything useful besides preventing abortions.

I think you're dead on with the first part, I disagree with the second. I don't think republicans think it would be good for the country for a shutdown. I think they believe it would be good for them politically. Their objective is to show the people who voted them in that they're serious about spending cuts and if it takes a shutdown so be it.

106

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:18:06am

re: #103 RogueOne

Yes. As I said:

Yes, that's what Boehner is saying. It's weird to see it spring up and get repeated all over the blogosphere so quickly. It's such a transparent attempt to put blame on the Democrats by seizing a particular moment in the narrative and saying 'See, they're the ones screwing everything up!'

107

Kronocide Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:19:48am

The winger talking point machinations have taken Dean's comments out of context and spun it to their means. It's worked on at least one lizard. Will it work on a few of the others?

108

Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:20:35am

re: #105 RogueOne

I'm not going into depth because I have to run in a moment. But I disagree. Their past words reveal what they are thinking. And that trend continues right up till the present where they are trying to cast a government shutdown in favorable terms as a "government slowdown". What proper conservative wouldn't be for that, after all?

109

Spocomptonite Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:22:28am

If Republican politicians shut down the government, do they still get paid to be the government?

110

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:22:39am

re: #107 BigPapa

The winger talking point machinations have taken Dean's comments out of context and spun it to their means. It's worked on at least one lizard. Will it work on a few of the others?

Yahoo, Politico, and RCP are now part of the winger brigade? Seriously?

111

iceweasel Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:27:36am

re: #102 RogueOne

Politico does very little other than shill for drudge-- post drudge-bait items.

112

Kronocide Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:28:19am

re: #110 RogueOne

Yahoo, Politico, and RCP are now part of the winger brigade? Seriously?

That's not what I said. Although two of your four links were erroneous in their reporting.

RCP: "Howard Dean: Democrats Should Be "Rooting" For A Shutdown"
Yahoo: "The U.S. is ambling toward an April 8 government shutdown, and former Democratic National Committee head Howard Dean says his party should "be quietly rooting for it."

Clearly erroneous.

TPM and Politico correctly quoted Dean but interpreted it incorrectly.

113

Cankles McCellulite Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:34:39am

re: #109 Spocomptonite

No silly. They just want to slow down Government. So maybe their pay checks should be direct deposited very s l o w l y.

114

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:36:19am

re: #111 iceweasel

Politico does very little other than shill for drudge-- post drudge-bait items.

I'm going to disagree. I've seen them attacked from the left and right which, to me, means they must be doing something right.

115

RogueOne Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:37:18am

C'ya people, enjoy the rest of your day.

116

Cankles McCellulite Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:38:01am

re: #114 RogueOne

White supremacists are attacked by both right wingers and left wingers, so....

117

Kronocide Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:38:36am

re: #114 RogueOne

I'm going to disagree. I've seen them attacked from the left and right which, to me, means they must be doing something right.

Merely being attacked from the left and the right doesn't mean much. Why they are attacked and what they are reporting/saying means much more.

118

Fozzie Bear Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:45:34am

I have a super wacky idea! Let's raise taxes back to a reasonable level, so it's possible to balance the budget without draconian cuts to basic services.

What's this you say? People don't want to pay taxes? Well, no shit! People don't like to take injections when they are sick, they don't like to use condoms, and they don't like to go to work either. That's life.

It's time to deal with reality.

119

Obdicut Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:47:20am

re: #118 Fozzie Bear

I like going to work.

120

suchislife Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:47:58am

re: #119 Obdicut

Me too.

121

suchislife Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:48:19am

re: #120 suchislife

Lucky us.

122

Charles Johnson Wed, Mar 30, 2011 12:18:57pm

re: #102 RogueOne

This is one of the dumbest attempts to flip things around I've seen yet.

Howard Dean said he would be "quietly rooting" for a shutdown if he were a partisan, because the public would rightly blame the Republicans for it. He's right about that, because the Republicans are to blame.

Then he continued on -- in the next sentence -- and said that he would not want a shutdown because of the damage it would do to the country.

You took it out of context, and now you're denying taking it out of context, even though it's dead obvious that you are.

Do you think this kind of transparent spinning is fooling someone?

123

What, me worry? Wed, Mar 30, 2011 1:19:19pm

re: #105 RogueOne

Did you see Dean's comment in the article about Clinton and the government shutdown during his term?

The former Vermont governor and presidential candidate [Howard Dean] was alluding to 1995 and 1996, when two government shutdowns under a Republican Congress helped improve President Clinton’s reelection chances. The scenario could repeat this year as budget negotiations continue to falter, and Dean said he thinks the public will blame Republicans again.

It's like when Democrats (myself included) want Huckabee, Palin and Bachmann on the Rep ticket. No Democrat wants to see these people win the election. We want them on the ticket because they are so incredibly unelectable, it will further increase Obama's chances.

Dean wasn't being literal. There's nothing to agree or disagree about.

124

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Mar 30, 2011 3:18:38pm

re: #102 RogueOne

Again, I disagree. I have the same view of deans words as the National Journal,
RCP: [Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

Yahoo: [Link: news.yahoo.com...]

and Politico: [Link: www.politico.com...]

and TPM:
Howard Dean: 'Quietly Rooting' For Gov't Shutdown
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

If I'm taking him out of context I'm in good company.

it's like you didn't even understand what dDean said

What a boring life we'd all leave if nobody who was every in power could ever posit or speak of strategic hypotheticals what they would do in a given position which they are not in. You gotta wipe your political skidmarks over it and play false equivalency, weak sauce

125

cminmn Wed, Mar 30, 2011 8:03:07pm

Shut it down. Critical services will stay in operation. Drastic measures need to be taken. Charles, your dismissal of the right is a bit over exaggerated.
I think both parties are full of s*&t but come on you can't just keep picking on the right. It almost seems that you built this site based on catering to the extreme right and now you abandon all "conservative" thought. When does this stop? When do these people start to make tough decisions? It is too bad that some citizens will lose subsidies but it has to happen.

126

allah this Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:04:34pm

"This is what happens when your entire world-view is based on irrational magical thinking. You think you can actually change things in the real world by giving them different names."

You mean like "man-caused disasters"? Oh wait. That's nuance, right?

127

Charles Johnson Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:28:03pm

Dead thread derp.

128

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Mar 30, 2011 10:33:10pm

re: #124 WindUpBird

it's like you didn't even understand what dDean said

What a boring life we'd all leave if nobody who was every in power could ever posit or speak of strategic hypotheticals what they would do in a given position which they are not in. You gotta wipe your political skidmarks over it and play false equivalency, weak sauce

wow should probably have previewed that

129

allah this Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:06:54pm

re: #127 Charles

Dead thread derp.

Thanks for the clarification, Charles. This goes a long way in explaining how my example is not applicable here. How very progressive of you. Rock on with your new buds.

130

jamesfirecat Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:37:12pm

re: #129 allah this

Thanks for the clarification, Charles. This goes a long way in explaining how my example is not applicable here. How very progressive of you. Rock on with your new buds.

Okay then fine I'll step up to the plate.

Everyone knows that a man caused disaster is a terrorist attack.

It was a name change made for the sake of helping us fight a war the same way that we started calling them "freedom fries".

What we're seeing here is an honest to god attempt to confuse and ill inform people the same way when Sarah Palin started referring to end of life counciling as "death panels"

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