Indiana Republican: Women Will Pretend to Be Raped to Get Free Abortions

Appalling
Health • Views: 43,416

Indiana Republicans are about to force through one of the most restrictive abortion bills in the country; the law would make all abortions illegal after 20 weeks.

When state Rep. Gail Riecken (D) introduced an amendment that would create exceptions for victims of rape or incest, the sponsor of the bill, Rep. Eric Turner (R), took the podium and said Riecken was trying to create a “giant loophole” — because women “could simply say they’ve been raped.”

Youtube Video

TURNER: With all do respect to Rep. Riecken, I understand what she’s trying to do. But as you know that when the federal health care bill was going through Congress there was a lot of discussion whether this would allow for abortion coverage and of course we were all told it would not. And the bill, my house bill 1210, would prevent that for any insurance company to provide abortion coverage under federal health care bill. This [amendment] would open that window and I would ask you to oppose this amendment.

I just want you to think about this, in my view, giant loophole that could be created where someone who could — now i want to be careful, I don’t want to disparage in any way someone who has gone through the experience of a rape or incest — but someone who is desirous of an abortion could simply say that they’ve been raped or there’s incest.

The amendment was voted down.

Jump to bottom

277 comments
1 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:20:19pm

Of course it doesn't bother them that someone could lie and stop a completely legal abortion. In fact I wager they would be happy about that. It's all about incrementally removing and weakening women's abortion rights, until they have none.

2 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:25:04pm

Allow me to translate: "I don’t want to disparage in any way someone who has gone through the experience of a rape or incest, but I am opposed to making any legal allowances for their situation, on account of lying whores who haven't really been raped might tell whoppers so we'd let them abort their babies."

3 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 30, 2011 11:25:31pm

"now i want to be careful, I don’t want to disparage in any way someone who has gone through the experience of a rape or incest, but since they've already been fucked once against their will I say we fuck 'em again for good measure, just in case they're lying sluts in need of a good shaming."

Too crude? Maybe, but this is essentially the man's position.

4 SpaceJesus  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:07:19am

i can't wait till 20 years from now

5 freetoken  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:18:12am

re: #4 SpaceJesus

i can't wait till 20 years from now

By which time women will be required to keep their heads covered and hair long and plain:

I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,
6 laZardo  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:36:36am

Not true conservatism? HAH.

7 Spocomptonite  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:37:36am

What should we expect from someone with this kind of background:

Organizations:
Member, Gas City Area Chamber of Commerce, present
Member, Marion-Grant County Chamber of Commerce, present
Board member, Taylor University Hall of Fame, present
Board Member, Taylor University Trojan Club, present
Former Board Member, College Wesleyan Church
Former Board Member, Connection Youth Ministry
Former Member, Small Business Advisory Council, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, present
Former Board Member, Kingdom Building Ministries of Denver, Colorado
Former Board Member, Lakeview Christian School
Former Board Member, North Central Indiana Youth for Christ, present
Former Board Member, Taylor University Recruiting Foundation

and is rated a 100% by Advance America, a group that describes itself as, "the state's largest pro-family, pro-church, pro-private and home school, and pro-tax reform organization."

And don't let the current business organizations he's on fool you--when it comes down to either listening to business interests or his own interpretations of religious doctrines, religious "values" still win.

How about an amendment where pro-life people like this are forced against their will to directly pay for the mother and baby's care to bring the baby to term, any medical expenses as a result of giving birth, and then adopt the resulting babies that they force to be born? Then, despite still trampling all over women's rights, they'd at least be doing something "pro-life" themselves instead of just telling others what to do and expecting them to do it. And forcing them to comply with it seems like the fitting way to go about it.

8 theheat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:39:02am

I was just making the case with some animal peeps that women's rights and animal rights (and environmentalism, for that matter) are taking a gigantic step backward.

Normal things, like women's decisions being private, or the fact dckheads convicted of animal cruelty should actually face penalties, have been pretty much wiped out, or are in the process of being wiped out, with this latest knuckle dragging surge by Republicans.

"But I'm a Republican and I don't think the state should put their nose in anybody's business." Or try, "I'm a Republican but I think people who abuse animals should face real penalties."

Supposedly, stuff like this is offered to show not all Republicans are Neanderthals. Here's a hint: try living in the real fucking world. If you care about those things, why the fuck are you still voting Republican? Lemme guess, you still believe the lines about fiscal responsibility and job creation? Why not just hang a GULLIBLE sign on your forehead.

It's that ridiculous at this juncture. The Heartland™ mentality is running the party, and it's time the idiot holdouts and denialists face it.

9 Spocomptonite  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:42:53am

/end rant.

Sorry, the underlying hypocrisy and implied superiority of nearly every anti-abortion argument just makes my blood boil. And I'm a guy. I couldn't imagine being a woman and having to personally put up with this crap. And this is m.f.'ing AMERICA, dammit. It shouldn't be this way anywhere, and especially not here.

10 laZardo  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:44:36am

re: #9 Spocomptonite

/end rant.

Sorry, the underlying hypocrisy and implied superiority of nearly every anti-abortion argument just makes my blood boil. And I'm a guy. I couldn't imagine being a woman and having to personally put up with this crap. And this is m.f.'ing AMERICA, dammit. It shouldn't be this way anywhere, and especially not here.

At least you don't live in a part of the world that bans contraceptives as well as abortions.

/living in the p.i. where catholics are crustier than most South Americans

11 Spocomptonite  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:45:41am

Given recent events and things like this particular example, I think this will be my new mantra: "America: FUCK, NO!"

12 Spocomptonite  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:59:38am

re: #10 laZardo

At least you don't live in a part of the world that bans contraceptives as well as abortions.

/living in the p.i. where catholics are crustier than most South Americans

Where's P.I.?
And it's been my experience that South Americans are not "crusty"... but then again I only know Brazilians. :)

Fun fact: Brazil's health department gave out 89 million free condoms during Carnival this year.

13 freetoken  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 2:03:44am
14 EdDantes  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 2:15:46am

re: #13 freetoken

Caravan?

15 freetoken  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 2:23:00am

re: #14 EdDantes

yup

16 EdDantes  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 2:25:59am

re: #15 freetoken

It sounded familiar. I think the Ventures covered around 1962.

17 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 2:57:41am

Morning, all

18 Artist  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:03:14am

Greetings.

19 EdDantes  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:06:57am

By the way, to any lizards who were here last night I offer my apologies for my behavior. What to me seemed an innocent comment transmogrified into something I was unprepared to debate.
I remain agnostic on the climate change debate.
I meant no offense to Obdicut, any lizards reading and especially Charles.
Next time I wittingly pick a fight I will be prepared.
Again, my apologies.

20 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:13:39am

re: #19 EdDantes

By the way, to any lizards who were here last night I offer my apologies for my behavior. What to me seemed an innocent comment transmogrified into something I was unprepared to debate.
I remain agnostic on the climate change debate.
I meant no offense to Obdicut, any lizards reading and especially Charles.
Next time I wittingly pick a fight I will be prepared.
Again, my apologies.

I missed the party but overall, lizards are a forgiving lot.

21 EdDantes  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:15:34am

Good morning, reaserchokre: #20 researchok

Good to hear. Thanks, I needed that.

22 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:17:02am

re: #21 EdDantes

Good morning, reaserchok

Good to hear. Thanks, I needed that.

That's one of the better features of the LGF community.

23 EdDantes  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:20:40am

re: #22 researchok

As a long time reader I am thankful for that.

24 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:30:52am

re: #23 EdDantes

As a long time reader I am thankful for that.

If you're looking at AGW, check in with LVQ.

I was in a quandary- I didn't doubt the reality of global warming but could not understand how to distinguish between what might be a natural phenomena and what might be human contributions.

LVQ explained the ways to measure rates of natural change and how that is changed and impacted by human influence.

In other words, there may indeed be a natural phenomena at work here. That said, it appears the rate of change is influenced by human activity.

LVQ's explanation of AGW was the best I had ever heard. He took the time to be clear, answered my questions and follow up queries.

He and I may not always agree on all things political, but he has always been a stand up guy in our exchanges.

If you have any AGW questions, he really is the go to guy.

25 laZardo  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:35:14am

re: #12 Spocomptonite

Where's P.I.?
And it's been my experience that South Americans are not "crusty"... but then again I only know Brazilians. :)

Fun fact: Brazil's health department gave out 89 million free condoms during Carnival this year.

P.I. = Philippine Islands. The old sailors' name for the Philippines.

Sorry for the delay, had to commute home from college.

26 EdDantes  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:37:32am

re: #24 researchok

I will indeed!

27 lockjawcanbefun  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:41:31am
"I don’t want to disparage in any way someone who has gone through the experience of a rape or incest — but"

A new variant on the always classic "I'm not racist, but". Nice to see them expand into a wordier variation.

28 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:43:47am

re: #26 EdDantes

I will indeed!

If that doesn't work, blame Ice.
//

29 The Left  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:43:56am

KS GOP Rep. Slams Anti-Abortion Bill: I’m ‘Embarrased To Be A State That Bases Its Laws On Untruths’

The nationwide war on a woman’s right to choose secured significant victories this week. Yesterday, Arizona became the first state in the nation to criminalize abortions based on a problem that doesn’t exist. Virginia will now force 80 percent of its clinics to close. Not to be outdone, the Kansas legislature swiftly approved not one, but two anti-abortion bills yesterday. HB 2218, the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act, strictly limits abortions after 22 weeks “based on disputed research that fetuses can feel pain at that point of development.” Though only 1.5 percent of abortions are performed after this period, the bill marks a significant victory for anti-choice activists who “have turned fetal pain into a new front in their battle to restrict or ban abortion.”

But not all Republicans bought the Republican argument that “this is a significant advancement” and “a more appropriate benchmark for late-term abortions.” “It’s based on false research,” said GOP Rep. Barbara Bollier who joined 8 other Republicans who voted against the bill:

“No one really knows and it’s based on false research,” said Rep. Barbara Bollier, R-Mission Hills. “It’s not universally held and I would be embarrassed to be a state that bases its laws on untruths.”

It's nice to see a republican speak out against the increasing use of outright lies to undo Roe, however:

Kansas’s second anti-abortion bill, HB 2035, would require parental consent for anyone under 18 to have an abortion. Current law requires that one parent be notified, but neither parent can veto a daughter’s abortion. Unsatisfied with tightening parental control, the GOP included provisions that allow family members to sue doctors and force women to agree that they’re terminating a human being:

* Allow a woman’s close family members to sue if they believe an illegal abortion was performed.

* Require providers of abortions to provide patients with a newly revised informed consent statement including wording that abortion “terminates the life of a whole, separate, unique, living human being.”

Both bills go directly to Kansas Gov. Sam Brownback (R). Brownback, “who is pro-life, has promised to sign” the fetal pain measure into law. Florida, Arkansas, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, and Kentucky are mulling similar “fetal pain” bills.

This is the American Taliban in action.

30 EdDantes  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:44:22am

I am grateful that no one said,"Shuuuuun the nonbeliver!
Shuuuunuh!
I'm joking!

31 The Left  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:44:31am

re: #28 researchok

If that doesn't work, blame Ice.
//

Ha! Thanks.
Morning all.

32 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:46:12am

re: #29 iceweasel

KS GOP Rep. Slams Anti-Abortion Bill: I’m ‘Embarrased To Be A State That Bases Its Laws On Untruths’

It's nice to see a republican speak out against the increasing use of outright lies to undo Roe, however:

This is the American Taliban in action.

If the country goes to hell, we won't be able to blame China.

We will have done it ourselves.

That said, America's greatest blessing is her ability to self correct.

33 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:47:22am

re: #31 iceweasel

Ha! Thanks.
Morning all.

You needed a laugh.

You got one.

How's life and what's his name, that Irish fellow...?

34 The Left  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:56:08am

re: #33 researchok

You needed a laugh.

You got one.

How's life and what's his name, that Irish fellow...?

It's pretty good! Very windy and wet today though. My honey just started a new job which significantly cuts into his lgf time though. I'm just trying to figure out a good time to go to the shops-- or 'do the messages' as they say here.
How's by you?

35 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:58:54am

re: #34 iceweasel

It's pretty good! Very windy and wet today though. My honey just started a new job which significantly cuts into his lgf time though. I'm just trying to figure out a good time to go to the shops-- or 'do the messages' as they say here.
How's by you?

I'm good, doing a whole lot of nothing, meaningless stuff.

Plus ca change, plus ca reste la meme.

I do miss your part of the world, though.

Crazy as it sounds, I even miss the food.

Growing up in the UK, we had to ask grandma not to cook for us...

36 The Left  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:02:06am

re: #35 researchok

I'm good, doing a whole lot of nothing, meaningless stuff.

Plus ca change, plus ca reste la meme.

I do miss your part of the world, though.

Crazy as it sounds, I even miss the food.

Growing up in the UK, we had to ask grandma not to cook for us...

Really? I didn't know you grew up here!
I might make scones later today to surprise Jimmah. This is a good recipe. I'm adding raisins. He loves that.

37 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:02:14am

re: #34 iceweasel

It's pretty good! Very windy and wet today though. My honey just started a new job which significantly cuts into his lgf time though. I'm just trying to figure out a good time to go to the shops-- or 'do the messages' as they say here.
How's by you?

By the way, re Jimmah's new position, tell him I said selling plastic sporans to tourists will not afford him a lot of room for growth...

/

38 EdDantes  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:03:45am

Good night. everyone.

39 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:04:54am

re: #19 EdDantes

I hope you don't feel I was too jerky too you. All I really want is for you to read up on the issue. The site I linked, [Link: skepticalscience.com...] is a really really good one for that.

40 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:05:32am

re: #36 iceweasel

Really? I didn't know you grew up here!
I might make scones later today to surprise Jimmah. This is a good recipe. I'm adding raisins. He loves that.

Use the yellow raisins if you can get them.

Yup, I grew up in the UK.

My grandfather and I ate so much F&C (our favorite outing) I have Telegraph ink in my blood.

41 Dan M.  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:07:30am

So, you don't think women ever lie about rape? What would a woman have to do in order to justify an abortion on account of rape? If some women will lie about rape simply in order to destroy a former lover, why wouldn't some women lie about rape if it were a convenient way to obtain an abortion?

42 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:13:29am

re: #40 researchok

Use the yellow raisins if you can get them.

Yup, I grew up in the UK.

My grandfather and I ate so much F&C (our favorite outing) I have Telegraph ink in my blood.

I suspect Jimmah might relate to this

School Daze

43 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:15:19am

re: #41 Dan M.

I think you're missing the point by a broad mile.

Do you believe that women who have raped should be able to obtain an abortion?

44 laZardo  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:17:19am

re: #43 Obdicut

I think you're missing the point by a broad mile.

Do you believe that women who have been raped should be able to obtain an abortion?

PIYF

45 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:28:35am

re: #43 Obdicut

I think you're missing the point by a broad mile.

Do you believe that women who have raped should be able to obtain an abortion?

Women who have been raped must prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were not just "asking for it".

/

46 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:37:21am

re: #41 Dan M.

Women are teh debbil.

47 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:43:13am

re: #41 Dan M.

So, you don't think women ever lie about rape? What would a woman have to do in order to justify an abortion on account of rape? If some women will lie about rape simply in order to destroy a former lover, why wouldn't some women lie about rape if it were a convenient way to obtain an abortion?

Its better to let a thousand unraped women get abortions than to prevent one truly raped one from getting one.


--My new take on an old expression.

48 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:51:33am

re: #41 Dan M.

Actually when I finished reading your post (then I read it again) I, for some reason, heard the voice of Frank Booth. You have obviously been deeply hurt by a woman, and feel a great anger toward them.

What was your point, anyway?

49 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:54:26am

More about the bill from the local news:

[Link: www.indystar.com...]


The House and Senate bills would give Indiana some of the toughest abortion restrictions in the country, according to statistics compiled by the Guttmacher Institute, a group that tracks state policies on reproductive issues.
.....
The Senate abortion bill, Senate Bill 328, sponsored by Sen. Patricia Miller, R-Indianapolis, was approved 39-9 in February. Like the House bill, it would require abortion providers to tell women that the procedure carries a risk of breast cancer and that a fetus can feel pain. Women also must be told that couples are "willing and waiting" to adopt children and that those couples might pay for prenatal care and childbirth.
......
Abortions would be illegal after 20 weeks, except to preserve the life of the woman. Current state law prohibits abortions after viability, which is determined by the doctor, usually at about 24 weeks. Ninety-seven percent of abortions in the state occur before 13 weeks, according to Planned Parenthood of Indiana.
....
While speaking on the bill Wednesday, Turner, the author, apologized for saying during debate Tuesday that a woman might falsely claim she had been raped in order to obtain health coverage for an abortion. Turner made the comment while trying to persuade House members to vote down a Democratic amendment that would have allowed certain insurance plans to cover abortion in the case of rape or incest. Representatives voted down the amendment.

50 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:55:48am

re: #47 jamesfirecat

In a way, this guy is right. I mean, he's absolutely wrong on any sort of moral level, but he-- and other anti-abortion fanatics-- are showing their true colors more and more often.

If you allow any exceptions for abortion, then women will be able to claim that-- this is what McCain meant by mocking the 'health of the mother' provision in allowing for abortion.

The rational response to this is to realize that criminalizing abortion simply is unworkable.

51 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:56:11am

re: #49 RogueOne

The amendment was voted down.

52 The Left  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:58:30am

re: #50 Obdicut


If you allow any exceptions for abortion, then women will be able to claim that-- this is what McCain meant by mocking the 'health of the mother' provision in allowing for abortion.

The rational response to this is to realize that criminalizing abortion simply is unworkable.

Another rational response is to realise that being forced to carry a pregnancy to term does damage the health and well-being of a mother.

At this time I always remember that quote: "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." Rose Kennedy I believe-- too lazy to google.

53 The Left  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:00:19am

re: #52 iceweasel

Another rational response is to realise that being forced to carry a pregnancy to term does damage the health and well-being of a mother woman.

At this time I always remember that quote: "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." Rose Kennedy I believe-- too lazy to google.

Women should be free to choose the conditions under which they will become mothers. Also I'm referring to unwanted pregnancies, obviously, in the above.

54 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:04:19am

re: #48 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The fact that it happens isn't up for debate, it happens.
[Link: www.theforensicexaminer.com...]
[Link: winteryknight.wordpress.com...]

The question is how often. I was at a party with a group of friends. We left the party and went to a buddies apartment with a girl a buddy had met. The next morning she went home to her HUSBAND that none of us knew she had and told him she was out all night because she had been raped. The next afternoon the cops show up and arrested him in front of all of us because the husband insisted that if she had been raped she needed to report it. My buddy lost his job and had to spend money on an attorney before the charges were finally dropped almost a year later. No one would give him a job with a rape arrest on his record so he had to re-join the army. It happens.

55 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:05:08am

re: #51 Obdicut

I'm not sure what you mean. Wasn't that in both stories?

56 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:06:46am

re: #54 RogueOne

Well, on theohter hand, this would never have happened under Sharia law unless she had four witnesses.

/

57 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:06:59am

re: #55 RogueOne

I'm not understanding why he's apologizing when they still voted the amendment down.

What reason would there be to vote the amendment down, if he didn't believe what he was saying?

58 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:07:50am

re: #56 ralphieboy

Well, on theohter hand, this would never have happened under Sharia law unless she had four witnesses.

/

Under Sharia law it wouldn't have mattered. She would have been dead regardless of it being consensual or not.

59 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:08:48am

re: #58 RogueOne

Under Sharia law it wouldn't have mattered. She would have been dead regardless of it being consensual or not.


Makes the aborthion a moot issue, then...

/

60 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:09:00am

re: #54 RogueOne

The fact that it happens isn't up for debate, it happens.
[Link: www.theforensicexaminer.com...]
[Link: winteryknight.wordpress.com...]

The question is how often. I was at a party with a group of friends. We left the party and went to a buddies apartment with a girl a buddy had met. The next morning she went home to her HUSBAND that none of us knew she had and told him she was out all night because she had been raped. The next afternoon the cops show up and arrested him in front of all of us because the husband insisted that if she had been raped she needed to report it. My buddy lost his job and had to spend money on an attorney before the charges were finally dropped almost a year later. No one would give him a job with a rape arrest on his record so he had to re-join the army. It happens.

Moral of the story: don't stay out drinking and then go to some guy's apartment with some girl that he picked up. Your buddy was a dumbass.

61 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:09:00am

re: #57 Obdicut

I'm not understanding why he's apologizing when they still voted the amendment down.

What reason would there be to vote the amendment down, if he didn't believe what he was saying?

My guess is he was getting a ration of shit for saying women would fake rape. He's from Cicero and I've never heard of him so I don't know if this is typical of him or not.

62 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:10:48am

re: #60 Alouette

How do you figure? There were dozens of witnesses willing to say they hit it off immediately and were all over each other the whole night. She wasn't forced to come back to the apartment, she wanted to. Are men supposed to get consent in writing before they hook up with a woman?

63 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:13:07am

re: #62 RogueOne

How do you figure? There were dozens of witnesses willing to say they hit it off immediately and were all over each other the whole night. She wasn't forced to come back to the apartment, she wanted to. Are men supposed to get consent in writing before they hook up with a woman?


You don't have to have written consent, but if you fail to obtain it, you should be aware of potential risks and consequences...

64 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:13:49am

re: #62 RogueOne

How do you figure? There were dozens of witnesses willing to say they hit it off immediately and were all over each other the whole night. She wasn't forced to come back to the apartment, she wanted to. Are men supposed to get consent in writing before they hook up with a woman?

I think that it's kind of stupid to hit the sack with somebody you just met at a party and don't even know. Unless she was a professional, in which case she was running a scam.

65 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:16:54am

re: #60 Alouette

I've got more. My brother's ex-wife is diagnosed bi-polar. One night after work he comes home and goes to bed. He gets woken up in the middle of the night by the cops who said his wife had called and said he had raped her. The cops look around at a perfectly kept house, the kids are both sleeping, there isn't a mark on her and he's stone cold sober. The police told her up front that they didn't believe her but if she insisted they would have to arrest him and do a rape kit on her. She insisted, he was arrested, and the charges were dropped when the rape kit came back saying she hadn't even had sex. She had claimed rape before, in Michigan, during their child custody dispute. He lost the kids for almost a year while the investigation went on. It happens. There are hundreds of examples out there. My argument isn't that it's rampant but, especially after the Duke soccer case, I would expect people to understand it does happen.

66 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:17:27am

re: #64 Alouette

I think that it's kind of stupid to hit the sack with somebody you just met at a party and don't even know. Unless she was a professional, in which case she was running a scam.

You're old school//

67 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:20:18am

re: #65 RogueOne

I've got more. My brother's ex-wife is diagnosed bi-polar. One night after work he comes home and goes to bed. He gets woken up in the middle of the night by the cops who said his wife had called and said he had raped her. The cops look around at a perfectly kept house, the kids are both sleeping, there isn't a mark on her and he's stone cold sober. The police told her up front that they didn't believe her but if she insisted they would have to arrest him and do a rape kit on her. She insisted, he was arrested, and the charges were dropped when the rape kit came back saying she hadn't even had sex. She had claimed rape before, in Michigan, during their child custody dispute. He lost the kids for almost a year while the investigation went on. It happens. There are hundreds of examples out there. My argument isn't that it's rampant but, especially after the Duke soccer case, I would expect people to understand it does happen.

Scottsboro

68 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:20:23am

For the record I don't think an Indiana woman would go through the hassle of filing a rape claim in order to get an abortion. We're only a couple hours from every surrounding state, it would be much easier to jump in a car and go to Michigan, IL, or KY. Back in the day people used to go to KY to get abortions, I have no idea if that's still the same.

69 The Left  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:24:51am

re: #68 RogueOne

For the record I don't think an Indiana woman would go through the hassle of filing a rape claim in order to get an abortion. We're only a couple hours from every surrounding state, it would be much easier to jump in a car and go to Michigan, IL, or KY. Back in the day people used to go to KY to get abortions, I have no idea if that's still the same.

That only applies to women who have cars, money, and the ability to take time off work. Those are also the same women who really need resources like Planned Parenthood. Outlawing abortion (or making it difficult to obtain one) in any state will always disproportionately impact women who are poor.

70 Ericus58  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:25:43am

re: #2 SanFranciscoZionist

Allow me to translate: "I don’t want to disparage in any way someone who has gone through the experience of a rape or incest, but I am opposed to making any legal allowances for their situation, on account of lying whores who haven't really been raped might tell whoppers so we'd let them abort their babies."

I'm struggling to write the word that truly imparts to everyone the disgust I feel at these vile morons.
To even entertain, much less speak this shit, about someone who has been traumatized by a rape or incest and that somehow this would be an "excuse"....

The belief that it is for someone's own good to carry to term a fetus from one of these crimes is just fucked up and hearkens back to a mindset not unlike that found during the Inquisition.

I do not for one moment think that "God" is a hateful and subjugating force.
That is West Baptist shit.
If "God" is a Being that embraces his followers and is one of compassion and forgiveness, then this "God" sure wouldn't demand from his faithful to take on the suffering from an evil act in his name.

I am just fed up to freakin' HERE with this ideology based claptrap these morons are trying to enforce on us.

71 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:26:25am

Lets talk about something nicer regarding Hoosiers:

Matt Howard hometown steps up for family
[Link: espn.go.com...]


The family of Butler forward Matt Howard is expecting to attend the Final Four with some financial assistance from its hometown, as a pep rally in downtown Connersville, Ind., is scheduled for today to help raise money for the trip to Houston, according to The News-Examiner.

The money will help defray the travel cost for Howard's parents and nine siblings, so every little bit counts, and many people want to help even in tough economic times. In fact, WXIN-TV followed his father, Stan, on his mail route and found that people left him donations at their mailboxes.

Indianapolis Colts owner Jim Irsay tweeted that he wanted to fly the family to Houston, but the NCAA prohibited it. He did indicate would be able to donate to the Connersville fund.

72 HappyWarrior  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:28:42am

I grow politically more pro choice everyday due to assholes like Turner.

73 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:29:13am

re: #69 iceweasel

That's true. Personally, I think the state has too many things to get accomplished to be wasting time dealing with a non-issue. Abortion laws may get the farmers riled up but everyone else is focused on the unemployment rate, taxes, education, and the reworking of our county government levels.

74 HappyWarrior  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:29:36am

re: #71 RogueOne

Lets talk about something nicer regarding Hoosiers:

Matt Howard hometown steps up for family
[Link: espn.go.com...]

Now this is an awesome story. Thanks for sharing.

75 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:30:01am

re: #70 Ericus58

It is the unique ability to combine sanctimonius moral certainty with an ongoing obsession about other peoples' private lives, bodies and sexual conduct that makes these attitudes so attractive to them.

76 Ericus58  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:32:11am

re: #41 Dan M.

So, Mr. Balance Dick.
You think that due to a SMALL number of individuals that have lied about a pregnancy should then entail the subjugation of every woman in their ability not to carry to term the result of a crime?

Fucktard.

77 The Left  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:33:12am

re: #73 RogueOne

That's true. Personally, I think the state has too many things to get accomplished to be wasting time dealing with a non-issue. Abortion laws may get the farmers riled up but everyone else is focused on the unemployment rate, taxes, education, and the reworking of our county government levels.

My take? The Republicans got nothin' when it comes to the economy, unemployment, education and more -- except ODS. They're willingly going full on Culture Wars because it used to work.
My bet is that it doesn't work any more, the culture has already changed. Homophobia isn't the rallying call it used to be either. So they're back with this Operation Rescue/Moral Majority rhetoric.

When they idolise Reagan, what they're longing for is a return to the winning coaltion he built that included the so-cons and the religious right.

78 Ericus58  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:33:26am

re: #49 RogueOne

More about the bill from the local news:

[Link: www.indystar.com...]

That bell once rung can't be un-rung.
Turner, screw you.

79 The Left  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:35:18am

Out for a while-- have a good day, Lizard Nation.

80 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:36:24am

re: #41 Dan M.


The point is that no woman should have to "justify" an abortion on any account. That is what is being lost in the debate in Indiana and all over the nation these days.

81 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:37:34am

re: #41 Dan M.

Thank God men NEVER lie about raping a woman!!

"officer ,, I swear,, I heard her say yes!!"

You deserve the Karma you currently have!

82 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:37:38am

re: #77 iceweasel

In the case of Indiana, Daniels has a very pro-active reform agenda he's trying to get through this year. They really pushed hard during the last election and they picked up a ton of seats. He's said repeatedly that the states legislature has to prioritize and things like this (and the RTW bill) are a distraction to what he wants to get done.

At the county level Indiana operates like it's still 1882. I'd love to see them get the reforms through and my belief is this is a distraction. Basically they're picking a big fight to shorten the abortion window by just 4 weeks. It's a waste of time and energy.

83 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:38:01am

re: #78 Ericus58

That bell once rung can't be un-rung.
Turner, screw you.

He accomplished his goal, the amendment was rejected. 'Morning, all.

84 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:39:07am

re: #77 iceweasel

When they idolise Reagan, what they're longing for is a return to the winning coaltion he built that included the so-cons and the religious right.

The Religious Right felt very put out by Reagan when they saw that he pretty much ignored their social agenda, and even more when they found out about Nancy's house astrologer.

They have since moved on, and it is now the Republican Party that somehow seems to see the need to embrace their political priorities.

85 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:40:56am

re: #83 Decatur Deb

He accomplished his goal, the amendment was rejected. 'Morning, all.

If he were smart he would have kept his mouth shut since it didn't stand a chance anyway. After bailing for 6 weeks the dems are not going to get anything this year and everyone knows it. Also, this state is almost ruled by farmers. I can't find the vote totals but I would be surprised if some of the dems didn't vote with the repubs.

86 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:42:02am

re: #36 iceweasel

Really? I didn't know you grew up here!
I might make scones later today to surprise Jimmah. This is a good recipe. I'm adding raisins. He loves that.

I make oatmeal scones all the time (using rolled oats). Or are those a heresy in Scotland for mixing food groups?

;)

87 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:43:21am

re: #86 oaktree

I make oatmeal scones all the time (using rolled oats). Or are those a heresy in Scotland for mixing food groups?

;)

It's only heresy if it tastes good.//

88 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:44:25am

re: #86 oaktree

I make oatmeal scones all the time (using rolled oats). Or are those a heresy in Scotland for mixing food groups?

;)

If in doubt, deep-fry it, that purges all sin...

89 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:56:55am

More bad news in IN. Prosecutors knew there were major problems with their lab but kept the info to themselves. Color me shocked.:

Critics: Potential problems at toxicology lab weren't disclosed
[Link: www.indystar.com...]


Leaders of the state prosecuting attorneys association and other prosecutors were told more than two years ago about concerns regarding Indiana State Department of Toxicology test results, which are used as evidence in criminal cases.

More troubling, say legal experts and defense attorneys, is that the prosecutors kept that information to themselves.

Instead of informing defense attorneys or pushing for an investigation of the lab's work, prosecutors continued to use the results -- often critical to winning convictions or leveraging plea agreements.

90 Mr.Boots  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:04:30am

Meanwhile, a question to federally and state-elected Republicans: Where are the jobs?

91 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:06:33am

re: #85 RogueOne

If he were smart he would have kept his mouth shut since it didn't stand a chance anyway. After bailing for 6 weeks the dems are not going to get anything this year and everyone knows it. Also, this state is almost ruled by farmers. I can't find the vote totals but I would be surprised if some of the dems didn't vote with the repubs.

Would this be a reason that Indiana isn't currently pushing heavy anti-immigration legislation as well? The farmers know darn well that they're getting cheap migrant labor and don't want to threaten the supply?

(sorta /)

92 Artist  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:07:22am

re: #90 Mr.Boots

I don't know, but it appears they don't want to talk about it anymore...

93 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:07:54am

re: #90 Mr.Boots

Meanwhile, a question to federally and state-elected Republicans: Where are the jobs?

Why are you8 asking them? Why aren't you asking the man that stated if he got his stimulus bill the rate wouldn't go above 8%??

94 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:09:05am

I have to get going. My saudi nephew is meeting me in Indy this afternoon to hang out. He's grown his beard out completely and, well, he sorta looks like this guy:

Image: Angry-Muslim-Guy.jpg

He's driving in from NY. With his look and last name (too many "a"'s and "w"'s) it's less stressful to get a rental car than to get on a non-saudi owned airplane. I'm taking him to an upscale restaurant in all-white Carmel and it ought to be fun seeing all the looks we'll get. I love to stir shit!

Cya people!

95 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:11:00am

re: #91 oaktree

Would this be a reason that Indiana isn't currently pushing heavy anti-immigration legislation as well? The farmers know darn well that they're getting cheap migrant labor and don't want to threaten the supply?

(sorta /)

You would think but I'm not hopeful. My rep is a dem and during the last election I got a ton of big shiny fliers talking about how big a problem illegal immigration is in this state. My guess is they'll easily push through something similar to AZ eventually. They've been talking about it but it's one of those things Daniels would rather not deal with right not.

96 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:11:02am

re: #93 sattv4u2

Why are you8 asking them? Why aren't you asking the man that stated if he got his stimulus bill the rate wouldn't go above 8%??

Easy one. The load of crap he was left to shovel, with TPGOP resistance every step of the way, was larger than it appeared.

97 sagehen  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:11:28am

re: #52 iceweasel

At this time I always remember that quote: "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." Rose Kennedy I believe-- too lazy to google.

Pretty sure that was Gloria Steinem.

98 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:11:31am

re: #90 Mr.Boots

Meanwhile, a question to federally and state-elected Republicans: Where are the jobs?

And btw,, jobs ARE going top states that have favorable business climates

99 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:11:39am

re: #65 RogueOne

I've got more. My brother's ex-wife is diagnosed bi-polar. One night after work he comes home and goes to bed. He gets woken up in the middle of the night by the cops who said his wife had called and said he had raped her. The cops look around at a perfectly kept house, the kids are both sleeping, there isn't a mark on her and he's stone cold sober. The police told her up front that they didn't believe her but if she insisted they would have to arrest him and do a rape kit on her. She insisted, he was arrested, and the charges were dropped when the rape kit came back saying she hadn't even had sex. She had claimed rape before, in Michigan, during their child custody dispute. He lost the kids for almost a year while the investigation went on. It happens. There are hundreds of examples out there. My argument isn't that it's rampant but, especially after the Duke soccer case, I would expect people to understand it does happen.

My problem Rouge is that the issue is not "does it happen" but "do these cases justify what is being done"

Do instances of women claiming to have been raped when they're not justify preventing women WHO ACTUALLY HAVE BEEN RAPED from getting abortions?

100 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:12:24am

re: #98 sattv4u2

And btw,, jobs ARE going top states that have favorable business climates

damn fat thumb

101 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:13:39am

re: #98 sattv4u2

And btw,, jobs ARE going top states that have favorable business climates

Many are coming here to business-friendly Alabama, but they are chicken processing and advertised in Spanish.

102 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:17:03am

re: #98 sattv4u2

And btw,, jobs ARE going top states that have favorable business climates

How do you define "favorable business climates"?

103 sagehen  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:20:12am

re: #77 iceweasel

When they idolise Reagan, what they're longing for is a return to the winning coaltion he built that included the so-cons and the religious right.

Democrats could get a lot of mileage out of a cry to "bring back Reagan's tax rates!" The GOP would want to be vocally anti-something-Reagan, by name, but it would mean substantially raising income tax, corporate tax, inheritance tax, capital gains tax....

104 kirkspencer  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:20:53am

My first test of integrity when talking to anti-abortion folk these days is their stance on contraceptive education.

Often I discover their base stance is that sex for anything but procreation is evil.

That's the core. Not enslavement of women or any of the rest. Just sex for anything but procreation is evil.

That teaching contraceptives means fewer abandoned babies, fewer teen parents who had to abort their educations and personal development, is immaterial. That the forced birth may be emotionally and/or physically destructive to the mother is secondary. Yes, and underneath this leads to the belief that if you were raped it is your fault. If you had sex it must be for procreation, period - if you wanted you could have prevented it.

I do not know how to fight that particular mindworm, not really.

105 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:24:35am

Here's a hometown newspaper columnist who gets the problem:

American Workers Got What They Deserved

[Link: www.hollandsentinel.com...]

106 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:28:03am

re: #101 Decatur Deb

Many are coming here to business-friendly Alabama, but they are chicken processing and advertised in Spanish.

and car plants
[Link: www.siteselection.com...]

[Link: www.hmmausa.com...]

107 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:28:47am

re: #102 jamesfirecat

How do you define "favorable business climates"?

see 106

real estate concessions,, short term tax breaks ,,, ect

108 Stephen T.  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:30:02am

re: #65 RogueOne

The lesson one should learn from this is "Don't stick your dick in crazy."

But if crazy gets pregnant and wants an abortion, she should be allowed to have one.

109 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:30:57am

re: #107 sattv4u2

see 106

real estate concessions,, short term tax breaks ,,, ect

How do we create a "favorable business climates" without getting into a race to the bottom between all 50 states if not the world at large?

110 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:32:45am

@HoneyBadgerNYC Honey Badger
Oh great, @BronxZoosCobra is a "morning snake." Can't wait to smack the shit out of #snakeonthetown. #cobrahunting #hungry

111 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:32:48am

re: #109 jamesfirecat

How do we create a "favorable business climates" without getting into a race to the bottom between all 50 states if not the world at large?

Huh?? "race to the bottom"? By giving your citizens a chance to get jobs thereby getting off gov't programs and becoming tax payers thereby making up the short term loss via concessions?

wow ,, just ,,, wow

112 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:33:54am

re: #107 sattv4u2

see 106

real estate concessions,, short term tax breaks ,,, ect

Yup. We bought the jobs with a billion in state money while we are ready to cut the school budgets because of proration.

"Incentives have been a major hammer in jumpstarting Yellowhammer State auto manufacturing. Alabama by AAMA estimates has ponied up some $872 million in landing major plants for DaimlerChrysler, Honda and Hyundai.
Suppliers, of course, don't merit subsidies that rich. Nonetheless, Mobis garnered about $1.1 million in local-area incentives, including discounted land, water and sewer extensions to the site, and site preparation, according to officials with the Montgomery Area Chamber of Commerce (www.montgomerychamber.com).
In addition, Mobis's Montgomery workers will be trained free of charge through the Alabama Industrial Development Training Institute (www.aidt.edu), according to the Alabama Development Office (www.ado.state.al.us) - which is currently setting up an operation focused on recruiting South Korean firms.
"

113 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:35:25am

re: #111 sattv4u2

Huh?? "race to the bottom"?

Quick questions:

1) Do you think we need more or less regulation of child labor?

2) Do you think we need more or less regulation of workplace safety?

114 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:35:58am

re: #112 Decatur Deb


And the state will get nothing back in increased revenues from the newly employed, who will now be able to buy homes, cars, products all taxed by the state?

115 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:36:20am

re: #111 sattv4u2

Huh?? "race to the bottom"? By giving your citizens a chance to get jobs thereby getting off gov't programs and becoming tax payers thereby making up the short term loss via concessions?

wow ,, just ,,, wow

Sorry, I may be unfairly extrapolating your logic.

Your plan for how to make business set up shop is to give them benefits like short term tax breaks and easy access/low costs for places to build their factories am I correct?

116 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:38:17am

re: #113 iossarian

Quick questions:

1) Do you think we need more or less regulation of child labor?

2) Do you think we need more or less regulation of workplace safety?

WTF does "child labor" or "more or less workplace safety" have to do with giving corporation "X" a tax break IF they move to a state???

117 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:38:32am

re: #114 sattv4u2

And the state will get nothing back in increased revenues from the newly employed, who will now be able to buy homes, cars, products all taxed by the state?

We are using state dollars to subsidize Korean corporations. What happened to the Free Market cult? Does that only work in one direction? Subsidies are Walmart deals on a large scale, and they often bail when the goodies run out.

118 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:39:42am

re: #117 Decatur Deb

We are using state dollars to subsidize Korean corporations. What happened to the Free Market cult? Does that only work in one direction? Subsidies are Walmart deals on a large scale, and they often bail when the goodies run out.

Was there an answer in there somewhere to the question I asked in #114?

Are Hyundai and Mobis (et al) "bailing out"?

119 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:39:44am

re: #116 sattv4u2

WTF does "child labor" or "more or less workplace safety" have to do with giving corporation "X" a tax break IF they move to a state???

Unions. We are a Right to Work Without Unions state.

120 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:40:39am

re: #119 Decatur Deb

Unions. We are a Right to Work Without Unions state.

And because of that there are now sweat shops being set up across the state using 12 year olds??
I did not know that!

121 kirkspencer  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:40:46am

re: #98 sattv4u2

And btw,, jobs ARE going top states that have favorable business climates

hu-huh. LINK is via google to choose-your-state chart of unemployment rates (alabama selected for start). Check the "All US" box, and notice that the last few months are pretty much neck and neck for the two. Add Georgia, considered a /very/ business friendly climate, and notice this is worse than the US rate.

In fact, the rates in most so-called 'business friendly' states are as bad or worse than those in the US as a whole. Which leads me to believe the only way you can claim the above is by being literally accurate - some jobs ARE going to business friendly states - while mistaken in the context.

122 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:40:51am

re: #116 sattv4u2

WTF does "child labor" or "more or less workplace safety" have to do with giving corporation "X" a tax break IF they move to a state???

I don't know.

But it seems that Republican lawmakers in various states (Alabama and Maine spring to mind as recent examples) believe that relaxing regulation of child labor is necessary to provide a "favorable business climate".

So I was wondering whether the creation of a "favorable business climate" on a competitive basis between states is really a good idea.

123 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:40:54am

re: #118 sattv4u2

Was there an answer in there somewhere to the question I asked in #114?

Are Hyundai and Mobis (et al) "bailing out"?

We'll have to watch and see. If Mississippi or Mombai gives them a better deal, they're gone.

124 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:41:57am

re: #120 sattv4u2

And because of that there are now sweat shops being set up across the state using 12 year olds??
I did not know that!

Have you ever seen a Perdue chicken plant?

125 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:42:31am

re: #120 sattv4u2

And because of that there are now sweat shops being set up across the state using 12 year olds??
I did not know that!

Haha. Did you not get beyond item 1 in "38 ways to win an argument"?

[Link: www.indiauncut.com...]

126 kirkspencer  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:42:32am

re: #121 kirkspencer

LINK as mentioned. (PIMF)

127 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:44:30am

re: #124 Decatur Deb

Have you ever seen a Perdue chicken plant?

Actually, I have in North Carolina

Didn't see (m)any 12 year olds there

Saw lots of Latinos
Also saw lots of them BUYING stuff in malls, restaurants, car dealerships

(not saying chicken plucking is THE ideal job ,, but it sure as hell beats gov't assistance, no??)

128 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:45:51am

FREE CHEEESE FOR ALL!!

129 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:45:55am

re: #127 sattv4u2


(not saying chicken plucking is THE ideal job ,, but it sure as hell beats gov't assistance, no??)

At what point does a job not beat government assistance?

If you were a banana plantation employee in Central America being paid $1 a day to work 16 hours and drink contaminated water, would that be better than forming a union and demanding better working conditions?

130 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:46:45am

re: #129 iossarian

At what point does a job not beat government assistance?

If you were a banana plantation employee in Central America being paid $1 a day to work 16 hours and drink contaminated water, would that be better than forming a union and demanding better working conditions?

We have lots of those here in the states, do we?

131 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:47:17am

re: #130 sattv4u2

We have lots of those here in the states, do we?

We did before the unions.

132 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:48:03am

re: #131 Decatur Deb

We did before the unions.

It's almost too easy.

133 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:48:18am

re: #129 iossarian

re: #130 sattv4u2

We have lots of those here in the states, do we?

I think I saw them setting one of those up in Central Park!

134 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:49:01am

re: #131 Decatur Deb

We did before the unions Union Army

FTFY

135 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:49:48am

re: #131 Decatur Deb

We did before the unions.

Yup,, because there was not a SINGLE good job to be had before unions,, yup,, notta one!

136 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:49:49am

re: #125 iossarian

Haha. Did you not get beyond item 1 in "38 ways to win an argument"?

[Link: www.indiauncut.com...]

Huh, number 5 (Use your opponent’s beliefs against him.
If your opponent refuses to accept your premises, use his own premises to your advantage. Example, if the opponent is a member of an organization or a religious sect to which you do not belong, you may employ the declared opinions of this group against the opponent.) actually seems like an actual valid debating strategy to me. Like asking a "small Government Republican" to explain how they support expanding the government so as to monitor every woman's miscarriage to make sure it wasn't really an abortion....

137 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:49:52am

re: #133 sattv4u2

re: #130 sattv4u2

I think I saw them setting one of those up in Central Park!

I worked an ILGWU job a few blocks south of there. 7th Ave, as in 20th Cent sweatshops,
as in Triangle Shirtwaist .

138 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:50:27am

re: #135 sattv4u2

Yup,, because there was not a SINGLE good job to be had before unions,, yup,, notta one!

Not many.

139 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:51:07am

re: #137 Decatur Deb

I worked an ILGWU job a few blocks south of there. 7th Ave, as in 20th Cent sweatshops,
as in Triangle Shirtwaist .

How old are you?

140 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:51:28am

re: #138 Decatur Deb

Not many.

And now that unions make up what, about 18% of the workforce, the other 82% are in sweatshops!?!?!

141 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:51:42am

My issue with your plan sattv4u2 (since you aren't answering my 115) is this...

Assume your state offers a company a good deal on some land and they set up shop.

Now another state offers the company an even better deal and thus they leave.

What should your state do in this case to generate jobs? Should they accept the lost of the company or should they offer them an even sweater deal than the new state is offering them to get them to stay?

142 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:52:56am

re: #139 Alouette

How old are you?

Pushing 67--My building shared a lobby with the ILGWU headquarters. The halls were a sweatshop/child labor museum. We don't forget.

143 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:53:24am

re: #141 jamesfirecat

My issue with your plan sattv4u2 (since you aren't answering my 115) is this...

Assume your state offers a company a good deal on some land and they set up shop.

Now another state offers the company an even better deal and thus they leave.

What should your state do in this case to generate jobs? Should they accept the lost of the company or should they offer them an even sweater deal than the new state is offering them to get them to stay?

Lets say you want to buy a flat screen TV

Best Buy offers it for $1,000
Target offers it for $899 with one year free service
Wal Mart offers it for $799 with two years free service

Where are you buying it from?/

and BTW ,, I moved 5 times in 3 years for WORK!

144 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:53:29am

re: #135 sattv4u2

Yup,, because there was not a SINGLE good job to be had before unions,, yup,, notta one!

Are you really making this argument? That because some people were well-off in the past, before unions, things were better then?

Do you really think that it's OK that in the US, you can be a hard-working person who:

- cannot take time off to vote without losing your job
- will not be paid if you fall ill and are unable to work for a day or two
- has no access to healthcare
- cannot afford to raise a family

?

145 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:53:48am

re: #104 kirkspencer


There seem to be a lot of folks who see unwanted pregnancy as God's Just Punishment for unmarried sex. And that is one of the things that gets them so upset about abortion: they see these people as trying to escape God's Justice.

146 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:53:50am

re: #140 sattv4u2

And now that unions make up what, about 18% of the workforce, the other 82% are in sweatshops!?!?!

The unions are disappearing, and the sweatshops will be back. Then we get to do it all over again.

147 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:54:33am

re: #144 iossarian

Are you really making this argument? That because some people were well-off in the past, before unions, things were better then?

Do you really think that it's OK that in the US, you can be a hard-working person who:

- cannot take time off to vote without losing your job
- will not be paid if you fall ill and are unable to work for a day or two
- has no access to healthcare
- cannot afford to raise a family

?

And are you really making the argument comparing the plight of a central America Banana farm worker with the US workforce?

148 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:55:28am

re: #143 sattv4u2

Lets say you want to buy a flat screen TV

Best Buy offers it for $1,000
Target offers it for $899 with one year free service
Wal Mart offers it for $799 with two years free service

Where are you buying it from?/

Depends. I try to spend as much of my income as I can through businesses that have sustainable employment and production practices.

Electronic goods are particularly hard to source in this way, though.

149 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:56:41am

re: #147 sattv4u2

And are you really making the argument comparing the plight of a central America Banana farm worker with the US workforce?

MinuteMaid was creating those conditions here in America in the 1960's, until the ABC White Paper brought the Feds in.

150 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:57:40am

We cannot take it for granted that those conditions will not return unless we retain the right to form unions and bargain collectively.

151 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:57:43am

re: #143 sattv4u2

Lets say you want to buy a flat screen TV

Best Buy offers it for $1,000
Target offers it for $899 with one year free service
Wal Mart offers it for $799 with two years free service

Where are you buying it from?/

and BTW ,, I moved 5 times in 3 years for WORK!

Yeah I'd buy at Wal Mart.

The problem is what happens when we try to translate these micro economic single person choices to a macro economic long term scale.


Satt, how would you define "a race to the bottom" if you don't mind me asking?

152 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:57:59am

re: #148 iossarian

Depends. I try to spend as much of my income as I can through businesses that have sustainable employment and production practices.

Electronic goods are particularly hard to source in this way, though.

Then choose something else

Lets make it even more local

Car dealer in your town has your "dream car" for $20,000

If you buy it there, your town gets $x. in sales tax

Dealer three towns over has the same car for $17,500 with 1 year free iol changes

Dealer five towns over has it for $16,600 with three years free EVERYTHINg'

Where ya buying from??

153 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:58:08am

re: #147 sattv4u2

And are you really making the argument comparing the plight of a central America Banana farm worker with the US workforce?

History tells us that's how things end up if you do away with labor rights. It's not rocket science, you can see it happening in the past time and time again.

You seem to think that we can just keep promoting a "favorable business climate", as if that doesn't at some point involve reducing the amount of protection that workers have (workers cost money).

So yes, I am saying that, if we continue to go down the path that Republican politicians are so keen to tread, we will end up with the majority of people working shitty jobs in dangerous conditions for little pay.

If you don't think this will happen, I would like to understand what your rationale is for holding that belief.

154 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:58:24am

re: #147 sattv4u2

And are you really making the argument comparing the plight of a central America Banana farm worker with the US workforce?

Right. Because there aren't any migrant farm workers or meat processors in this country working in horrifying conditions, with low pay, almost no benefits, and in an environment that most Real Americans would run screaming from.

155 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:58:45am

re: #149 Decatur Deb

MinuteMaid was creating those conditions here in America in the 1960's, until the ABC White Paper brought the Feds in.

50 years ago,,,,, Have anything a tad more contemporary??

156 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:59:27am

re: #155 sattv4u2

50 years ago,,, Have anything a tad more contemporary??

Perdue and Koch Industries.

157 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:59:37am

re: #155 sattv4u2

50 years ago,,, Have anything a tad more contemporary??

The fifty year rule only counts for asshole politicians.

158 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:59:39am

re: #151 jamesfirecat

Yeah I'd buy at Wal Mart.

The problem is what happens when we try to translate these micro economic single person choices to a macro economic long term scale.


Satt, how would you define "a race to the bottom" if you don't mind me asking?

That was YOUR phase, not mine

159 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 6:59:41am

re: #152 sattv4u2

Then choose something else

Lets make it even more local

Car dealer in your town has your "dream car" for $20,000

If you buy it there, your town gets $x. in sales tax

Dealer three towns over has the same car for $17,500 with 1 year free iol changes

Dealer five towns over has it for $16,600 with three years free EVERYTHINg'

Where ya buying from??

I make this decision often, actually. I shop in town and pay the higher taxes.

I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization.

Fuck the freeloaders (though they are welcome to sit and learn in the public library that my taxes pay for).

160 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:00:16am

re: #155 sattv4u2

50 years ago,,, Have anything a tad more contemporary??

Oh--and 50 years is contemporary at my age.

161 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:01:09am

re: #160 Decatur Deb

Oh--and 50 years is contemporary at my age.

I was 7 then, so (kinda) me too

162 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:01:25am

re: #155 sattv4u2

50 years ago,,, Have anything a tad more contemporary??

Massey mining.

163 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:02:51am

Nannies on temporary visas:

Over the past decade, tens of thousands of women have come to the United States on temporary visas to work as live-in maids and nannies. Usually, they work for foreign diplomats, businesspeople or officials of international organizations. What these women endure sounds like something we expect to hear in accounts of human slavery in Saudi Arabia. Sometimes bosses lie to the women about the terms of their employment and imprison them in their homes, forbidding them to speak to anyone outside the family. These real-life Dickensian sickos could legally be prosecuted under federal human trafficking laws (and it sure would be nice to see them out in the Mississippi sun wearing stripes), but as Debbie Nathan recently reported in The Nation, enforcement agencies and many advocates are slow to act when the cases don't involve prostitution or other lurid sex allegations. Whether they are technically "trafficking" victims or not, workers on these visas are often reluctant to report abuse because if they leave their jobs, they can be deported. Human Rights Watch reports that these workers' wages average about $2.14 an hour, their workday lasts about 14 hours, and they are rarely allowed to leave the employer's home without permission.

[Link: www.alternet.org...]

164 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:04:07am

BTW, here's your "business-friendly" environment at work:

Texas budget could cost 600,000 jobs

Texas could see more than 600,000 jobs disappear if lawmakers adopt the $83.8 billion budget that will go before the state House late next week, according to a state agency.

Harsh spending cuts in the budget could cost more than 263,500 private sector jobs and 343,000 government positions over the next two years, according to estimates released Wednesday by the Legislative Budget Board, a bipartisan committee.

165 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:04:59am

I hate to say it, but if foreign countries want to compete with us on wages and benefits, then I see that as fair competition and our incentive to become more productive.

But if we let them compete with us on matters like health and safety or environmental regulations, then we really are shooting ourselves in the foot.

That is where i see tariffs playing a role: if India wants to sell us chemicals, we should impose a tariff that adds up to the actual cost of producting them according to US environmental and safety standards. That would be their incentive to improve their standards to lose the tariffs.

166 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:06:00am

re: #164 Lidane

Pah. Who needs roads, schools, firefighters, policemen, nurses, post offices, or their garbage hauled away every so often?

MAN UP AND BUILD YOUR OWN ROADS!

167 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:06:03am

re: #164 Lidane

and 343,000 government positions over the next two years

So to try to live within their means, the state will have to cut stuff??

Wow ,,, just like I had to do 15 years ago when I lost my job, insurance, etc

Who woulda thunk!

168 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:06:23am

re: #158 sattv4u2

That was YOUR phase, not mine

Fair enough.

Here is the problem.

There's a famous french business model (can't recall the name) that works like this.

You have two companies selling a good that are exactly the same.

Both companies will try to undercut the other in order to sell more again and again.

Over time the price that both companies are selling the good for will be forced down to $0.01 above, or actively at the cost of production of that item.


If states are going to compete to make themselves attractive to businesses, well like it's been pointed out in discussing why Government employees don't have unions, States don't have to worry about deficits nearly as much as corporations do. Thus states can drive up deficits to appeal to corporations.

However if one state does it then every state will do it.

If every state tries to set itself as having a lower corporate income tax then the next state eventually Maryland would naturally have a 0.001% corporate income tax and Virginia a 0.0001% income tax.

This is what I worry about Satt.

Is there any way in which a state can "go too far" to create a "favorable business climate" to you?

169 lazardo  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:07:04am

re: #165 ralphieboy

I hate to say it, but if foreign countries want to compete with us on wages and benefits, then I see that as fair competition and our incentive to become more productive.

But if we let them compete with us on matters like health and safety or environmental regulations, then we really are shooting ourselves in the foot.

That is where i see tariffs playing a role: if India wants to sell us chemicals, we should impose a tariff that adds up to the actual cost of producting them according to US environmental and safety standards. That would be their incentive to improve their standards to lose the tariffs.

RTW advocate for a moment, wouldn't they just sell to someone else rather than pay the tariffs? We'd still lose out.

170 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:07:19am

re: #167 sattv4u2

Funny how you deliberately ignored the private sector jobs that will be lost. Or did they just not fit into your narrative?

171 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:07:32am

re: #167 sattv4u2

and 343,000 government positions over the next two years

So to try to live within their means, the state will have to cut stuff??

Wow ,,, just like I had to do 15 years ago when I lost my job, insurance, etc

Who woulda thunk!

Stop conflating Micro and Macro economics.

172 harlequinade  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:07:38am

re: #155 sattv4u2

EA Wife and the games industry?

[Link: ea-spouse.livejournal.com...]

173 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:08:36am

re: #171 jamesfirecat

Stop conflating Micro and Macro economics.

Why? It's the only argument he has.

174 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:09:38am

re: #170 Lidane

Funny how you deliberately ignored the private sector jobs that will be lost. Or did they just not fit into your narrative?



This projection, which is based on mathematical calculations,

Funny how it doesn't say anywhere in the article how/why the private sector would be impacted, other than a "mathematical calculations",

175 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:10:27am

re: #172 harlequinade

I worked a 118 hour week at EA, including one 60 hour shift. That was really fucked up. The stories about them are true.

176 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:10:59am

re: #174 sattv4u2

Find me statistical and/or budget projections that are done without math.

I might take you seriously after that.

177 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:11:04am

re: #167 sattv4u2

and 343,000 government positions over the next two years

So to try to live within their means, the state will have to cut stuff??

Wow ,,, just like I had to do 15 years ago when I lost my job, insurance, etc

Who woulda thunk!

The "state as individual" argument for controlling costs is fallacious, because a state depends less on external factors for its production than an individual (the larger the state, the smaller the external factors become).

A more accurate analogy for what's going on right now is: sorry, kids, we're not going to Disneyworld this year. Dad wants to spend more money on hookers and blow.

178 Varek Raith  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:11:19am

re: #176 Lidane

Find me statistical and/or budget projections that are done without math.

I might take you seriously after that.

Lol

179 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:11:33am

re: #174 sattv4u2


This projection, which is based on mathematical calculations,

Funny how it doesn't say anywhere in the article how/why the private sector would be impacted, other than a "mathematical calculations",

///Funny how we've got no real proof that our climate is going to be seriously affect by Global Warming other than some "mathematical calculations"


If you have a problem with the calculations you owe it to us to explain why they're wrong.

180 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:11:58am

it's daylight, and I have work to do, stick-building a garden shed. BBL

181 harlequinade  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:11:58am

re: #175 Obdicut

I just left the industry to start up on my own. It's insane. If there's one place that needs unionising, it's the game's industry.

Crytek. I could tell you stories about them.

182 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:12:22am

re: #176 Lidane

re: #179 jamesfirecat

waytomissthepoint

183 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:13:22am

re: #182 sattv4u2

You don't HAVE a point except to whine about math and to toss words around. You haven't made an argument at all so far.

184 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:13:42am

re: #181 harlequinade

Yep. They take advantage of the passion and the "What we're doing is cool!" and the easy manipulability of geeks in a big way.

by the way, check out [Link: www.freelancersunion.org...] if your'e going into stuff on your own. Where are you located at?

185 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:14:31am

re: #175 Obdicut

I worked a 118 hour week at EA, including one 60 hour shift. That was really fucked up. The stories about them are true.

You worked at EA? The games industry is meant to be fucked up.

186 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:14:41am

re: #175 Obdicut

I worked a 118 hour week at EA, including one 60 hour shift. That was really fucked up. The stories about them are true.

Their attitude seems to be, "This job is so awesome that you should be paying us for allowing you to work here, or at least work for free like we are sure millions of kids would love to do."

187 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:14:43am

And on that note, I have to get back to working at the non-union sweat shop I'm at

188 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:15:54am
189 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:16:24am

re: #186 Alouette


Yep. And when I was a temp there, they dangled the possibility of permanent hire in front of us and somehow got 100 temps believing that they'd each be the one to get one of the, like, 2 permanent positions they'd hire for that year.

Ironically, I didn't think I had any chance at getting hired on permanently, but I did.

190 Varek Raith  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:16:36am

Ah, EA.
Give the workers pitchforks and torches.
/

191 harlequinade  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:16:56am

re: #184 Obdicut

Copenhagen. Native UK who took advantage of that live anywhere in the EU thing :)

Copenhagen, Denmark, as opposed to Copenhagen, NY

192 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:17:27am

re: #183 Lidane

You don't HAVE a point except to whine about math and to toss words around. You haven't made an argument at all so far.

I don't have a point that states that will give businesses incentives to relocate there won't see an increase in employment??

I did not know that!

193 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:18:14am

re: #191 harlequinade

Okay, well never mind then. What are you going to be doing? Casual games, or..?

194 harlequinade  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:19:17am

Crap - that EA thing, I so didn't mean to thread jack.

195 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:19:40am

re: #194 harlequinade

It's morning, there's no real threadjacking.

196 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:20:12am

re: #192 sattv4u2

I don't have a point that states that will give businesses incentives to relocate there won't see an increase in employment?

Let's see -- Texas is doing all their austere budget cuts supposedly to attract jobs and to "live within our means", yet over 600,000 jobs will still be lost.

What was your point again?

197 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:20:16am

Rep. Sean Duffy (R-WI) boo-hooed about struggling to make ends meet on his mere $174,000/yr pittance. Now the GOP wants video footage of it removed from the entire intertubes forever.

In the clip, Duffy is asked whether he'd support cutting his own salary. Duffy says he would, but only as part of a plan where all public employees' salaries would be cut. He then said that the $174,000 in salary (not including benefits) he receives is a squeeze for his family of seven to live on:

I can guarantee you, or most of you, I guarantee that I have more debt than all of you. With 6 kids, I still pay off my student loans. I still pay my mortgage. I drive a used minivan. If you think I'm living high on the hog, I've got one paycheck. So I struggle to meet my bills right now. Would it be easier for me if I get more paychecks? Maybe, but at this point I'm not living high on the hog.

Image: 17jxH.jpg

198 harlequinade  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:20:50am

re: #193 Obdicut

Pervasive, on the whole. People doing things where they are - either with alternate reality browsers or QR codes.

I did a bunch of trial games, and I'm building an AR Pick your own path adventure game now.

199 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:20:50am

re: #195 Obdicut

It's morning, there's no real threadjacking.

It's also after 100 posts!! (or at least, that seemed to always have been the rule of thumb!!)

200 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:20:53am

re: #197 negativ

The GOP still haven't figured out that the Intertubes are forever. LOL!

201 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:21:19am

re: #196 Lidane

Let's see -- Texas is doing all their austere budget cuts supposedly to attract jobs and to "live within our means", yet over 600,000 jobs will still be lost.

What was your point again?

Scroll further back for the start ,, I know you can!

202 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:22:09am

re: #201 sattv4u2

I've gone through the entire thread. You're still not making an argument that stands up under scrutiny.

203 sattv4u2  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:23:22am

re: #202 Lidane

I've gone through the entire thread. You're still not making an argument that stands up under scrutiny.

Well,,, as long as you say so

K ,, back to the grind

Hey ,, you ,,,, yeah ,, you ,, the 12 year old ,, get sewing!!!

204 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:23:38am

re: #198 harlequinade

Cool. my email is just my nick here at gmail if you want to get into contact. And have you read [Link: www.rockpapershotgun.com...]

205 Varek Raith  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:24:39am

Maddow: Slavery Defenders

206 McSpiff  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:29:21am

re: #176 Lidane

Find me statistical and/or budget projections that are done without math.

I might take you seriously after that.

Real businessmen like Perry don't have time for math. They just use their gut.

There's some seriously smart people here, interesting reading this morning.

207 harlequinade  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:29:27am

re: #204 Obdicut

I do.[Link: wonderlandblog.com...] is also quite fun

I tend to read all over the place. This year's GDC was a font of interesting stuff.

I will use that link as soon as I have something to test, and get you running about your area :)

208 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:30:43am

On the original post.

Man, these people live in a major fantasy land, don't they?

209 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:32:27am

re: #208 Romantic Heretic

On the original post.

Man, these people live in a major fantasy land, don't they?

And they want to impose that fantasy land on the rest of us. The only thing they're missing are the body-length veils to keep women from tempting men into rape. =P

210 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:33:56am

re: #192 sattv4u2

I don't have a point that states that will give businesses incentives to relocate there won't see an increase in employment??

I did not know that!

You have a point.

The problem is that if state's keep doing that in an effort to top one another's efforts you can end up with corporations being waited on hand and foot by the state to a degree that the employment they bring in isn't worth it.

211 kirkspencer  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:36:17am

re: #152 sattv4u2

Then choose something else

Lets make it even more local

Car dealer in your town has your "dream car" for $20,000

If you buy it there, your town gets $x. in sales tax

Dealer three towns over has the same car for $17,500 with 1 year free iol changes

Dealer five towns over has it for $16,600 with three years free EVERYTHINg'

Where ya buying from??

Oh, good, we can use this argument. Let's start with the affirmation of your point. IF NO OTHER FACTORS APPLY, I will choose the dealer five towns over. I emphasized that point for the rest of this.

If, however, the dealer five towns over has a reputation of shoddy work - warranties that mysteriously don't cover this and that, and what is covered is back in the shop two or three or a dozen times - then that matters as well. And if the dealer three towns over does excellent work when the only mechanic he has on staff is in, but due to both hours and backlog quantity of work it'll be weeks between when the car is brought in for work and I get it back, that will also matter.

The purpose of government, at least in the US, is not to create a business friendly environment. Instead, "we the people" want a government that will "form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity[.]" Six points, none of which is "create a business-friendly environment."

212 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:36:29am

re: #190 Varek Raith

Ah, EA.
Give the workers pitchforks and torches.
/

I presume there is a FPS skin for that. All the wall decor is EA logos and the pitchfork and torch are the only available weapons. Change the monsters to zombified programmers (they drank the coffee) and various demonic mid-level managers.

213 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:39:10am

This takes balls....
Walker's Office: We're Still Enforcing Anti-Union Law -- Court Order Doesn't Apply To Us

Gov. Scott Walker's (R) administration isn't letting one court order stop them from implementing the new law curtailing public employee unions -- nor do they seem concerned by a second court order, and threats of sanctions, after they had sidestepped the first.

As the Wisconsin State Journal reports, Secretary of Administration Mike Huebsch has announced that the state will continue implementing the law, holding it to still be in effect:

It's starting to look like they're going beyond grey area legal maneuvering and now they're just ignoring the courts.

214 dmon  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:39:18am

At what point does the cost to the state in infrastructure, administration, etc...... out weigh the benefit of a new company that pays no taxes, and pays wages so low,that taxes from employees dont cover the states investment?

215 kirkspencer  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:39:39am

re: #212 oaktree

I presume there is a FPS skin for that. All the wall decor is EA logos and the pitchfork and torch are the only available weapons. Change the monsters to zombified programmers (they drank the coffee) and various demonic mid-level managers.

Ohhh, add the occasional tar-and-feather bomb. Boss fights with heads of personnel, accounting, production...

216 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:40:15am

re: #213 Killgore Trout

This takes balls...
Walker's Office: We're Still Enforcing Anti-Union Law -- Court Order Doesn't Apply To Us


It's starting to look like they're going beyond grey area legal maneuvering and now they're just ignoring the courts.

Who is in charge of enforcing the court order? Someone at the state level already under Walker's control?

217 McSpiff  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:41:42am

re: #214 dmon

At what point does the cost to the state in infrastructure, administration, etc... out weigh the benefit of a new company that pays no taxes, and pays wages so low,that taxes from employees dont cover the states investment?

Isn't that the point behind starve-the-beast? That's the ideal situation, because the state simply won't be able to afford those things anymore.

218 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:42:31am

re: #213 Killgore Trout

This takes balls...
Walker's Office: We're Still Enforcing Anti-Union Law -- Court Order Doesn't Apply To Us

It's starting to look like they're going beyond grey area legal maneuvering and now they're just ignoring the courts.

ACTIVIST JUDGE ZOMG!

219 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:43:14am

re: #216 oaktree

Who is in charge of enforcing the court order? Someone at the state level already under Walker's control?

It the Department of Administration which I assume is under Walker's control. I'm not sure if they have a legitimate legal argument for what they're doing but I sorta doubt it.

220 dmon  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:43:37am

re: #216 oaktree

[Link: news.google.com...]

She issued another order today that they can not implement the law

221 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:45:55am

The judge issued a new clarification this morning....
Judge: Collective bargaining law not in effect

Wisconsin’s new collective bargaining law has not been published and is not in effect, a judge has ordered.

Judge Maryann Sumi ordered Thursday morning that the law “has not been published within the meaning” of Wisconsin law and “is therefore not in effect.”

222 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:46:54am

re: #220 dmon

[Link: news.google.com...]

She issued another order today that they can not implement the law

Yeah, it looks like Walker is outright defying the court. I guess this could be grounds for impeachment.

223 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:48:20am

re: #213 Killgore Trout

This takes balls...
Walker's Office: We're Still Enforcing Anti-Union Law -- Court Order Doesn't Apply To Us

It's starting to look like they're going beyond grey area legal maneuvering and now they're just ignoring the courts.

What Walker's really saying: "Badges? We don' need no stinking badges!"

224 kirkspencer  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:48:29am

Jackson - the court has ruled, now let it enforce its ruling.

225 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:49:16am

re: #213 Killgore Trout

This takes balls...
Walker's Office: We're Still Enforcing Anti-Union Law -- Court Order Doesn't Apply To Us

It's starting to look like they're going beyond grey area legal maneuvering and now they're just ignoring the courts.

That's rather nasty... sort of like telling the Justice Department that the "defense of marriage" act is unconstitutional and to dismiss cases.

226 McSpiff  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:50:41am

re: #225 Walter L. Newton

That's rather nasty... sort of like telling the Justice Department that the "defense of marriage" act is unconstitutional and to dismiss cases.

If by sort of, you mean not legally similar in the slightest...then yes.

227 dmon  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:50:59am

re: #223 Romantic Heretic

The funny part is that there is a Wisc Supreme court election next week, two months ago the re-election of the republican judge was a forgone conclusion......now.....not so much..... and Walker keeps throwing gasoline on the fire

228 dmon  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:52:44am

BTW... the union killing law here in ohio was passed last night, Kasich will sign today or tomorrow.

We'll start collective signatures toward a referendum to repeal on April 9

229 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:53:16am

re: #226 McSpiff

If by sort of, you mean not legally similar in the slightest...then yes.

Well, evidently you already know what "sort of" means since you already decided to down ding the comment before asking the question... there for... fuck it.

230 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:53:49am

re: #225 Walter L. Newton

That's rather nasty... sort of like telling the Justice Department that the "defense of marriage" act is unconstitutional and to dismiss cases.

They're not saying to "dismiss cases" they're saying that the Justice Department won't defend it but someone else can.

DoMA is still in effect even though Obama wishes it wasn't.

This law is in effect because Scott Walker wants it to be at this point.

Big difference.

231 McSpiff  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:55:24am

re: #229 Walter L. Newton

Well, evidently you already know what "sort of" means since you already decided to down ding the comment before asking the question... there for... fuck it.

Yes Walter, we're all use to your shtick. If you care to explain it for any new readers, be my guest. Or you could use the time to read up on the American legal system, and the vast difference between the state in the role of prosecutor and the state in the role of defendant. There's no "sort of similar" here at all.

232 McSpiff  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:01:27am

Obama stopped fighting when he got the desired outcome in court. Walker decided to stop fighting when he lost. One is ignoring the will of the courts, the other is quite happy to accept the court's decision.

233 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:02:14am

re: #211 kirkspencer

Or you know that the dealer 5 towns away doesn't give his kids enough to eat and hates his son because he's gay, you might not want to give an asshole like that your business, too.

234 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:02:34am

re: #232 McSpiff

Obama stopped fighting when he got the desired outcome in court. Walker decided to stop fighting when he lost. One is ignoring the will of the courts, the other is quite happy to accept the court's decision.

Poor analogy.

Walker hasn't stopped fighting.

If he had why would he be pushing through and telling people to act upon his law that isn't a law?

235 McSpiff  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:03:58am

re: #234 jamesfirecat

Poor analogy.

Walker hasn't stopped fighting.

If he had why would he be pushing through and telling people to act upon his law that isn't a law?

Sorry, by 'fighting' I meant purely through the courts. Walker is now very clearly IMO acting extra-judicially.

236 Varek Raith  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:04:07am

Let me know when a judge tells Obama that his admin must defend DOMA.
Otherwise, this is nothing like Walker ignoring a judge's ruling.

237 McSpiff  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:07:48am

re: #235 McSpiff

Sorry, by 'fighting' I meant purely through the courts. Walker is now very clearly IMO acting extra-judicially.

Which is stupidly dangerous. As came up yesterday with Buck, the executive usually has a fair amount of leeway over which court cases it chooses to pursue. I.e a prosecutor can choose not to bring a case to court, or the executive can choose which cases to appeal. I know of no where that gives the executive the power to ignore court orders. That's verge-of-civil-war-Africa kind of stuff.

238 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:08:54am

re: #237 McSpiff

It's actually the duty and job of the prosecutor to not bring a suit they believe is fundamentally flawed or that they lack the evidence to pursue.

239 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:09:00am

re: #237 McSpiff

Which is stupidly dangerous. As came up yesterday with Buck, the executive usually has a fair amount of leeway over which court cases it chooses to pursue. I.e a prosecutor can choose not to bring a case to court, or the executive can choose which cases to appeal. I know of no where that gives the executive the power to ignore court orders. That's verge-of-civil-war-Africa kind of stuff.

Sounds almost dictatorial.

240 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:09:44am

Hey, the state of Virginia ignored the federal order to call up three regiments of militia in 1861 to put down the rebellion in the other slave states, and we all know what that led to...

241 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:10:13am

re: #236 Varek Raith

re: #237 McSpiff

re: #238 Obdicut

My mistake. Sorry.

242 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:10:25am

More details....
Judge Says Union Bargaining Bill Not In Effect

The contentious collective bargaining law, Wisconsin Act 10, which would strip most public workers of nearly all collective bargaining rights and force them to contribute more to their pension and health plans, is not in effect, according to an amended restraining order released on Thursday morning.

243 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:14:02am

re: #240 ralphieboy

Hey, the state of Virginia ignored the federal order to call up three regiments of militia in 1861 to put down the rebellion in the other slave states, and we all know what that led to...

Well, there are a lot of intermediary steps. I think the worst case scenario is probably going to be the Feds stepping in to uphold the court's ruling like Brown v. Board of Education or Gore v. Florida. I suppose that would take a Federal court ruling that Wisconsin is in violation of its own laws. I'm just guessing.

244 McSpiff  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:14:03am

re: #239 oaktree

Sounds almost dictatorial.

Can't speak to the American system, but in Canada if a government was found in contempt of court... if it was a minority government you'd likely see it fall to a no confidence vote (a similar situation led to the fall of our current government, except it was contempt of Parliament)

If it was a majority government... you may see a party revolt or the Governor-General/Lieutenant-Governor use the reserve power of dismissal to call for new elections.

Yay checks and balances.

245 McSpiff  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:18:13am

re: #243 Killgore Trout

Well, there are a lot of intermediary steps. I think the worst case scenario is probably going to be the Feds stepping in to uphold the court's ruling like Brown v. Board of Education or Gore v. Florida. I suppose that would take a Federal court ruling that Wisconsin is in violation of its own laws. I'm just guessing.

Could you argue that by ignoring court orders that WI is in violation of the Equal Protection Clause? Since they're denying citizens the protection of the law?

246 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:24:09am

re: #245 McSpiff

Could you argue that by ignoring court orders that WI is in violation of the Equal Protection Clause? Since they're denying citizens the protection of the law?

I suppose so but this stuff is way over my head. So far they can't even decide if the law was passed properly.

247 dmon  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:24:15am

re: #245 McSpiff

They wont be able to implement it while under court order, the administration can claim they are doing it, but the judge has already threatened penalties for anyone that does.... the legislature has immunity while in session, but there is nothing protecting managers in the state agencies, or Walkers staff. Penalties could include fines and jail time. Also the order would prevent any city or county from enacting it.


My guess is that this isn't going to go over well with the voters next week in the supreme court race, or for the state senators coming up for recall.

248 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:26:41am

We are seeing the first fruits of the Tea party in power. It's gonna be a long legislative session...

250 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:27:23am

re: #248 ralphieboy

We are seeing the first fruits of the Tea party in power. It's gonna be a long legislative session...

Pass the popcorn. It's also going to be wacky.

251 darthstar  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:28:16am

Happy opening day, everyone.

PLAY BALL ! ! !

252 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:32:40am

re: #250 EmmmieG

Pass the popcorn. It's also going to be wacky.

Just wait until the GOP primaries start. Heh.

254 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:35:12am

re: #253 Killgore Trout

Trump on Obama's Birth Certificate: 'Maybe It Says He's a Muslim'

Everyone Else on Trump's Birth Certificate: Maybe It Tells Us What Species Died So His Wig Could Live

255 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:35:53am

re: #249 Killgore Trout

I'm just a kid who wants to know,
Where did all the slavers go?
They had their time, but now I'm sad,
Owning slaves was not so bad.

Those slaves were lucky, they had food,
And some of them were taught to read,
Now there's crime and things are bleak,
Is it so wrong to crush the weak?

Why can't we all just get along?
For now I'll sing my dirge-like song,
And look back fondly at those years.
At least we can still bash the queers.

256 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:40:00am

re: #253 Killgore Trout

Is trump just ignoring the birth certificate that Obama has released? Or is he a full-on "That's a fake, it's all a big conspiracy" birther now?

257 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:40:31am

re: #253 Killgore Trout


I am starting to develop an entirely unsubstantiated person theory about DT.

Since this is the Interwebs, I feel free to float it:

DT could well be in big financial trouble; overleveraged, with his financial empire about to collapse big-time.

Some grey eminences may well have promised to keep him afloat as long as he maintains a steady stream of birther/seekrit Mooslim/manchurian candy-date static.

Just a personal theory, mind you.

Long live innuendo!

258 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:41:21am

re: #249 Killgore Trout

14-Year-Old Singer Is ‘Crying For America’ In Tea Party Ditty

[Video]
lol

I listened to about 30 seconds.

This is what you get when a culture embraces Justin Bieber.

259 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:41:43am

re: #257 ralphieboy

I am starting to develop an entirely unsubstantiated person theory about DT.

Since this is the Interwebs, I feel free to float it:

DT could well be in big financial trouble; overleveraged, with his financial empire about to collapse big-time.

Some grey eminences may well have promised to keep him afloat as long as he maintains a steady stream of birther/seekrit Mooslim/manchurian candy-date static.

Just a personal theory, mind you.

Long live innuendo!

That's as stupid as Birtherism. Why don't you go on Alex Jones with that. You'll be right at home.

260 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:41:59am

re: #256 Obdicut

Is trump just ignoring the birth certificate that Obama has released? Or is he a full-on "That's a fake, it's all a big conspiracy" birther now?

Trump is playing up that, and the minor and silly kerfluffle over his own birth certificate for publicity. Keeping his name in the media spotlight is his goal. I half-expect a claim/rumor shortly that his toupee and is actually Malcolm X's love child.
//

261 AK-47%  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:43:21am

re: #259 Walter L. Newton


Just an unsubstantiated personal theory.

But why is nobody else telling you about this?

(ominous music swells)

/

262 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:44:50am

re: #256 Obdicut

Is trump just ignoring the birth certificate that Obama has released? Or is he a full-on "That's a fake, it's all a big conspiracy" birther now?

I can't tell. He's just spewing crap to get attention as far as I can tell.

263 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:44:53am

re: #259 Walter L. Newton

It's not actually as stupid as birtherism. Birtherism involves ignoring actual evidence that the theory is not true.

So, you're wrong.

264 researchok  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:45:51am

re: #256 Obdicut

Is trump just ignoring the birth certificate that Obama has released? Or is he a full-on "That's a fake, it's all a big conspiracy" birther now?

FactCheck.org:

Born in the U.S.A.- The truth about Obama's birth certificate.

265 Lidane  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:46:02am

re: #262 Killgore Trout

I can't tell. He's just spewing crap to get attention as far as I can tell.

That's my theory. He's just a media whore.

Maybe the ratings for Celebrity Apprentice are down, so he has to say stupid shit to get people to tune in. Who knows?

266 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:46:31am

re: #257 ralphieboy

I think you're right. He's just generating publicity to help him negotiate a better deal for his next reality show contract. I think Palin's doing the same thing.

267 darthstar  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:47:05am

re: #253 Killgore Trout

Trump on Obama's Birth Certificate: 'Maybe It Says He's a Muslim'

I've got a song for anyone who supports the birthers. (h/t to my wife who has been playing TMBG for the last half hour next to me)

268 iossarian  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:47:08am

re: #257 ralphieboy

I am starting to develop an entirely unsubstantiated person theory about DT.

Since this is the Interwebs, I feel free to float it:

DT could well be in big financial trouble; overleveraged, with his financial empire about to collapse big-time.

Some grey eminences may well have promised to keep him afloat as long as he maintains a steady stream of birther/seekrit Mooslim/manchurian candy-date static.

Just a personal theory, mind you.

Long live innuendo!

It's a neat theory, and would be even neater if you called the grey eminences "eminences grises".

Gotta get the French in there somehow. I picture a silver-goateed exiled count smiling to himself in his musty wine cellar.

269 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:48:01am

re: #263 Obdicut

It's not actually as stupid as birtherism. Birtherism involves ignoring actual evidence that the theory is not true.

So, you're wrong.

There goes your humor meter again... broken as usual.

270 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:48:24am

re: #265 Lidane

That's my theory. He's just a media whore.

Maybe the ratings for Celebrity Apprentice are down, so he has to say stupid shit to get people to tune in. Who knows?

Here's my theory. He's been surrounded for a long time by fawners, so he has come to believe he really is special and smarter. Therefore, the ideas in his head carry more weight than other people, and we should all listen, even if it's a subject on which he has on expertise whatsoever.

Either that, or the hairpiece has started talking to him.

271 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:48:55am

re: #270 EmmmieG

no expertise

272 Spocomptonite  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 9:32:37am

re: #98 sattv4u2

And btw,, jobs ARE going top states that have favorable business climates

Again, let me link this article, but this time just for you.

Basically, a couple major employers complained that his social policies would affect their ability to do business. A favorable business climate has a lot to do with a favorable living climate. If Republicans are going to be anti-immigration, anti-gay rights, anti-union rights, and anti-women's rights, businesses are going to have a hell of a time getting any kind of talent to relocate into such conditions and work for them.

But who'd want immigrants or gays or union members or women working for them when they can hire the poor, oppressed, discriminated-against white man instead?

273 allegro  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 9:44:49am

re: #272 Spocomptonite

If Republicans are going to be anti-immigration, anti-gay rights, anti-union rights, and anti-women's rights, businesses are going to have a hell of a time getting any kind of talent to relocate into such conditions and work for them.

Likewise with the Republican anti-education bills companies won't be able to find the educated workforce they need.

274 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:07:45pm

re: #99 jamesfirecat

My problem Rouge is that the issue is not "does it happen" but "do these cases justify what is being done"

Do instances of women claiming to have been raped when they're not justify preventing women WHO ACTUALLY HAVE BEEN RAPED from getting abortions?

I think that's Rogue's larger point. Unfortunately, there are a pretty substantial number of false rape allegations happening all the time, and when they happen, they ruin lives, careers, and families. It's a pretty serious problem, and until you have seen somebody destroyed by an allegation which was later proven to be impossible, it's hard to fully appreciate.

The thing is, laws like the one being discussed here only create more of an incentive to lie about rape, and an allegation against a specific (known) attacker is more likely to be credible than a generic "a total stranger raped me and I never saw any identifying features of my attacker" type of allegation. So, as Turner unwittingly points out, outlawing abortion except in cases of rape or incest is unworkable as a practical matter. The unintended consequences would be extremely ugly.

If the only path to an abortion is to make a rape allegation, then it shouldn't surprise anyone that if such a law were passed, there would be a significant uptick in false rape allegations. False rape allegations aren't victimless. For each false allegation, some guy is going to have his life ruined.

If abortion is legal ONLY in cases of rape and incest, then there are some women who will just lie to gain access, destroying the accused parties' lives. The only workable solution is either abortion is freely available and totally legal, or totally banned and completely illegal. "Splitting the difference" won't work.

275 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:38:00pm

re: #273 allegro

Likewise with the Republican anti-education bills companies won't be able to find the educated workforce they need.

not in the US anyway

276 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 4:55:42pm

re: #274 Fozzie Bear

Exactly. When you start with a bad law that's asking for abuse I can only see bad things happening.

Just to be clear, I think the whole argument is a waste. Republicans ran a very aggressive campaign and picked up a ton of seats this last cycle and this issue that was not a decisive factor in those pickups. We don't have an abortion epidemic in this state. The last studies I've read all say abortions/teen pregnancy are trending downward so why pick this fight now? We have important things to be fighting about and worrying about what I think is basically a non-issue taints the whole process. People need to learn to pick their fights better.

277 Querent  Thu, Mar 31, 2011 8:53:06pm

re: #7 Spocomptonite

How about an amendment where pro-life people like this are forced against their will to directly pay for the mother and baby's care to bring the baby to term, any medical expenses as a result of giving birth, and then adopt the resulting babies that they force to be born? Then, despite still trampling all over women's rights, they'd at least be doing something "pro-life" themselves instead of just telling others what to do and expecting them to do it. And forcing them to comply with it seems like the fitting way to go about it.

I'd vote for that.

Heck, i'd even campaign for it.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 69 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
4 days ago
Views: 169 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1