UN Dispatch: This Attack Was Different

‘The day has come for us to leave’
World • Views: 36,265

Here’s a report at UN Dispatch on what today’s slaughter of UN workers in Afghanistan means: This Attack is Different.

Foreigners committed to assisting in the rebuilding of Afghanistan have long accepted the possibility that they might die at the hands of warring parties, but this degree of violence from ordinary citizens is not something most of us factored into our decision to work here.

Tonight, the governor of Balkh province, of which Mazar-i-Sharif is the capital, is telling the international media that the men who sacked the UN compound were Taliban infiltrators. That’s rubbish. Local clerics drove around the city with megaphones yesterday, calling residents to protest the actions of a small group of attention-seeking, bigoted Americans. Then, during today’s protest, someone announced that not just one, but hundreds of Korans had been burned in America. A throng of enraged men rushed the gates of the UN compound, determined to draw blood. �Had the attackers been gunmen, they would likely have been killed before they could breach the compound.

I was sharing a meal with aid worker friends when I heard the news. Phones began buzzing. Security officers were demanding that my friends return to their compounds immediately. Cars had already been sent to retrieve them. Lockdown was in force.

This is not the beginning of the end for the international community in Afghanistan. This is the end. Terry Jones and others will continue to pull anti-Islam stunts and opportunistic extremists here will use those actions to incite attacks against foreigners. Unless we, the internationals, want our guards to fire on unarmed protestors from now on, the day has come for us to leave Afghanistan.

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533 comments
1 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 6:57:11pm

we need to kiss that commitment away...I am not at all happy with the situation over there

2 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 6:58:22pm

Sigh!

3 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:00:03pm

This attack has caused me to believe that maybe we should leave Afghanistan.

4 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:02:45pm
5 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:03:47pm

Terry Jones and others will continue to pull anti-Islam stunts and opportunistic extremists here will use those actions to incite attacks against foreigners

sometimes i think josephus must have felt the same way as he watched his fellow countrymen and the romans escalate their conflict

6 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:04:04pm

re: #3 ProLifeLiberal

This attack has caused me to believe that maybe we should leave Afghanistan.

Maybe radical Islam can't be defeated
/Quagmire

7 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:05:37pm
8 Max  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:05:50pm

OT: Hate to go offtopic so early in the thread, but here is a really interesting video I found on Vimeo about the only native Japanese Imam in Tokyo.

Meet Abdullah Taqy, tattoo artist, body piercer, and the only native Japanese Imam in Tokyo. He is one in thirteen million.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

9 darthstar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:06:57pm

We should have left Afghanistan years ago. Now the Joneses/Becks/Palins of the world will feel validated. Assholes.

10 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:07:48pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

What's interesting is the fact that the fanatics came out of the Blue Mosque. The Blue Mosque is Shia Mosque.

Iranian Incitement possible?

11 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:07:55pm

re: #9 darthstar

We should have left Afghanistan years ago. Now the Joneses/Becks/Palins of the world will feel validated. Assholes.

Exactly. They are looking for their next one though, so don'tca worry. They'll be on the other side once again.

12 jaunte  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:08:47pm

Maybe we can leave a gift before we go.
[Link: www.abc.net.au...]

13 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:10:31pm

re: #4 MikeySDCA

William Brydon

He was not the only member of that army to survive, though. A small number of the 44th Foot survived and were taken prisoner. They were not abused, because the Afghans respected their courage. Which reminds me; You hear lots about fierce Afghan fighters, but not enough about the brave and competent British Soldier (who even if he died still normally killed multiple Afghans first).

14 Max  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:12:46pm

re: #10 ProLifeLiberal

What's interesting is the fact that the fanatics came out of the Blue Mosque. The Blue Mosque is Shia Mosque.

Iranian Incitement possible?

Not to paint an entire religion with broad brushes, but Shiite Islam does place more deference on clerics than other sects of Islam; so it is possible that the community could be relying on the word of one irresponsible firebrand Imam.

15 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:16:58pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

He was not the only member of that army to survive, though. A small number of the 44th Foot survived and were taken prisoner. They were not abused, because the Afghans respected their courage. Which reminds me; You hear lots about fierce Afghan fighters, but not enough about the brave and competent British Soldier (who even if he died still normally killed multiple Afghans first).

two words....
Zulu

16 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:18:45pm

me thinks DF knows all about Roarke's Drift

17 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:19:52pm

re: #14 Max D. Reinhardt

Not to paint an entire religion with broad brushes, but Shiite Islam does place more deference on clerics than other sects of Islam; so it is possible that the community could be relying on the word of one irresponsible firebrand Imam.

From the post

Local clerics drove around the city with megaphones yesterday, calling residents to protest the actions of a small group of attention-seeking, bigoted Americans. Then, during today’s protest, someone announced that not just one, but hundreds of Korans had been burned in America.

18 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:24:28pm

re: #16 albusteve

me thinks DF knows all about Roarke's Drift

Roarke's Drift, and Isandlwana and Hlobane and Khambula as well. I've got a good bit of material on the Zulu War of 1879.

19 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:27:25pm

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

Roarke's Drift, and Isandlwana and Hlobane and Khambula as well. I've got a good bit of material on the Zulu War of 1879.

yeah, the Brits survived their Little Big Horn...good for them

20 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:28:30pm

I think it's very sad, that one bigoted jerk, can ruin the efforts of so many people, and destroy the help that other people need so badly. And be fundraising out of his bad behavior.*spit*

21 Political Atheist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:28:54pm

re: #3 ProLifeLiberal

And Florida maybe...
//

22 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:30:28pm

I weep tears for what this will mean for the people of Afghanistan who will be shut off from a constructive source of help they no doubt badly need and for the UN workers who have been trying so hard to help improve that war torn nation...

23 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:31:21pm

And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause there's bugger all down here on earth.

24 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:31:53pm

Unfortunately in that part of the world it is hard to tell who the good guys are. Sometimes it simply seems like it is bad guys vs worse guys. Of course jones deserves his share of the blame for this atrocity, but it is hardly the first time we have seen bloodshed on a mass scale in that part of the world.

25 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:32:59pm

re: #22 jamesfirecat

I weep tears for what this will mean for the people of Afghanistan who will be shut off from a constructive source of help they no doubt badly need and for the UN workers who have been trying so hard to help improve that war torn nation...

the Talis are currently the nastiest people on the planet....we cannot control the ground, we cannot save innocents, we cannot defeat them....time to boogie back to Ft Bragg

26 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:34:36pm

re: #19 albusteve

yeah, the Brits survived their Little Big Horn...good for them

Actually, no. Isandlwana was their equivalent and, for many of the same reasons (arrogance, incompetence, splitting their force) got handed their asses just as Custer did.

Rourke's Drift was a very different tactical situation and was fought competently by all the ranks. A determined defense of a partially fortified location with a significantly higher technological level in weapons is hard for any force to overcome.

27 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:36:15pm

re: #26 wlewisiii

Actually, no. Isandlwana was their equivalent and, for many of the same reasons (arrogance, incompetence, splitting their force) got handed their asses just as Custer did.

Rourke's Drift was a very different tactical situation and was fought competently by all the ranks. A determined defense of a partially fortified location with a significantly higher technological level in weapons is hard for any force to overcome.

please recognize a non historically accurate post....there were survivors, that was the point

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:37:26pm

re: #25 albusteve

the Talis are currently the nastiest people on the planet...we cannot control the ground, we cannot save innocents, we cannot defeat them...time to boogie back to Ft Bragg

The Taliban ain't shit in the International Nasties Sweepstakes...but I fear that we cannot actually fix up Afghanistan to what you or I would consider an acceptable condition.

29 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:38:22pm

re: #19 albusteve

yeah, the Brits survived their Little Big Horn...good for them

That isolated company was some of the few who did. The rifle companies at the main camp at Isandlwana were killed to the man.

Fun fact about Roarke's Drift: The Zulu amabutho (age based units roughly equivalent to regiments) at Roarke's Drift were the reserves of the Zulu field army, composed of older, married men. Most were in their late 30's to early 40's, and the Uthulwana amabutho still contained at least two half-brothers of King Cetshwayo.

30 Political Atheist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:39:02pm

re: #20 Floral Giraffe

That jerk should be forcible taken to the Afghanistan morgue, and kept long enough to observe the results of his actions. My next suggestion will be withheld in due respect to rule #4. For the new lizards that refers to the rule about not ever advocating violence here.

31 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:39:23pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

The Taliban ain't shit in the International Nasties Sweepstakes...but I fear that we cannot actually fix up Afghanistan to what you or I would consider an acceptable condition.

no?....who else burns children to death for ideological ends?....Republicans?

32 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:39:29pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

That would take a massive amount of effort and rebuilding. Money simply no one has would be needed too.

Someone needs to confront this Cleric on his bullcrap about "hundreds of Qurans" being burned. At the very least, someone maybe able to ruin his life.

33 justaminute  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:40:14pm

I've been in little villages in Afghanistan. You cannot expect them to have Western sensibilities like you do when nothing in their life corresponds even remotely to a Western lifestyle. There is not one place in America today that I could point out to you that even is remotely like Afghanistan villages.

If those UN workers and other humanitarian organizations leave, well I don't really want to think about it. Especially with the turmoil in other countries. Good luck to us all, we are going to need it.

34 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:41:02pm

re: #32 ProLifeLiberal

That would take a massive amount of effort and rebuilding. Money simply no one has would be needed too.

Someone needs to confront this Cleric on his bullcrap about "hundreds of Qurans" being burned. At the very least, someone maybe able to ruin his life.

They don't give a shit about the truth ... Lies work better in their narrative.

35 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:41:54pm

re: #33 justaminute

I've been in little villages in Afghanistan. You cannot expect them to have Western sensibilities like you do when nothing in their life corresponds even remotely to a Western lifestyle. There is not one place in America today that I could point out to you that even is remotely like Afghanistan villages.

If those UN workers and other humanitarian organizations leave, well I don't really want to think about it. Especially with the turmoil in other countries. Good luck to us all, we are going to need it.

never been to a Pueblo rez?

36 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:41:57pm

re: #20 Floral Giraffe

I think it's very sad, that one bigoted jerk, can ruin the efforts of so many people, and destroy the help that other people need so badly. And be fundraising out of his bad behavior.*spit*

re: #22 jamesfirecat

I weep tears for what this will mean for the people of Afghanistan who will be shut off from a constructive source of help they no doubt badly need and for the UN workers who have been trying so hard to help improve that war torn nation...

And it'll be the innocent & vulnerable—women & children who—suffer most from the loss of help. I say innocent because I find it highly unlikely that any Afghan women would have been out in the street with the mob that attacked the UN compound.

37 justaminute  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:43:50pm

re: #35 albusteve

never been to a Pueblo rez?

Well to they not know what life is like outside the reservation.? I bet they do.

38 freetoken  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:43:57pm

I think it would be accurate to summarize all of this as a collaboration in religious warfare between two extremely self centered and delusional groups - the "Islamic" fundamentalist leaders in Afghanistan, and the "Christian" fundamentalist leaders like Jones in the US. Both groups need to validate their own hatred and have found a partner to do so.

39 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:44:06pm

re: #36 CuriousLurker

Our continued presence there would probably exacerbate it as it is. Funny how things work out.

Not in a ha-ha way.

40 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:45:39pm

re: #35 albusteve

never been to a Pueblo rez?

The ones in northern WIsconsin, Minnesota & the Dakotas aren't exactly happy fun spas either.

41 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:45:47pm

re: #36 CuriousLurker

re: #22 jamesfirecat

And it'll be the innocent & vulnerable—women & children who—suffer most from the loss of help. I say innocent because I find it highly unlikely that any Afghan women would have been out in the street with the mob that attacked the UN compound.

It's not like we haven't tried ... We have given almost 10 years of blood and treasure to that country ...

42 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:45:50pm

re: #37 justaminute

Well to they not know what life is like outside the reservation.? I bet they do.

it was a yes or no question....have you any firsthand knowledge of life on an indian rez?

43 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:46:51pm

re: #41 _RememberTonyC

It's not like we haven't tried ... We have given almost 10 years of blood and treasure to that country ...

And all it takes is one lunatic with some gas and a handful of matches to show we're not welcome.

44 austin_blue  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:46:56pm

The level of tribalism/factionalism in The Big A is astounding. The only way we were ever going to get a handle on it was to go in, toss out the Taliban, secure the country, and get everybody at a big ass table, including the Taliban, to divide the country and its resources so that everybody got their piece of the vig. It has always and will remain a loose republic of tribes and ethnic groups, at best.

We are dancing about architecture in that benighted country. We have no concept of their culture. We just need to get the fuck out and kill the whack jobs from the air until they understand that they are are just another western Pakistan.

Which sucks. But that kind of Islamism cannot be allowed to flower again. If that pisses the Pakistanis and Afghanis off, fuck 'em. We can't let a bunch of Madrasah-trained ignorant fucktards dictate to the west.

Wow. And I'm a Liberal. A dyed in the wool Liberal.

Color me pissed as shit right now.

45 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:47:11pm

re: #38 freetoken

I think it would be accurate to summarize all of this as a collaboration in religious warfare between two extremely self centered and delusional groups - the "Islamic" fundamentalist leaders in Afghanistan, and the "Christian" fundamentalist leaders like Jones in the US. Both groups need to validate their own hatred and have found a partner to do so.

So let's airdrop Jones and his ilk into Afghanistan and let Allah sort it out.

46 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:49:26pm

re: #35 albusteve

never been to a Pueblo rez?

I haven't been to Afghanistan, but I've been to a Pueblo reservation (when I was in my early teens). Sat down, a resident close to my age came & sat next to me and sparked up a...smoke...we shared it, chatted, then each went on our way. The setting was exotic, but it was a 100% American experience. I can't picture that happening in Afghanistan.

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:50:28pm

re: #31 albusteve

no?...who else burns children to death for ideological ends?...Republicans?

Kenya

India

God knows what's going on in North Korea.

Or the Congo.

48 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:50:54pm

re: #41 _RememberTonyC

It's not like we haven't tried ... We have given almost 10 years of blood and treasure to that country ...

I'm not saying we haven't tried. I'm just commenting about who I think is going to suffer the most, i.e. the innocent, as usual.

49 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:51:06pm

I have not been a supporter of the Afghan fight since 04...I'm highly critical of Bush and congress to have allowed us to slug it out over there for little reason past that time...I was hoping BO the peacenik would end that fight, but he didn't and in the end it will all be for nothing...bet me

50 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:51:27pm

re: #44 austin_blue

The sad thing is that Afghanistan and Pakistan used to be better. Afghanistan was destroyed by the Soviet Invasion, and Pakistan ruined by Zia ul-Haq

51 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:51:28pm

re: #31 albusteve

no?...who else burns children to death for ideological ends?...Republicans?

The Nazis did that, so did Stalin and Mao.

52 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:52:16pm

re: #41 _RememberTonyC

It's not like we haven't tried ... We have given almost 10 years of blood and treasure to that country ...

And it's not like they wanted us there to begin with. Well some of them maybe,. but...

I hated that war from day one. I mean, come on, the Russian experience?

We were idiots, and then chickenshits not to "accept defeat" and leave.

53 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:52:29pm

re: #51 Dark_Falcon

The Nazis did that, so did Stalin and Mao.

now, not then...I'm in the present

54 justaminute  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:52:43pm

re: #42 albusteve

it was a yes or no question...have you any firsthand knowledge of life on an indian rez?

I've gone to one and hear about them. I do live in Oklahoma and am 1/16 Indian. But the borders of a reservation do not extend to the whole state like they do in Afghanistan.

55 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:53:00pm

re: #43 laZardo

And all it takes is one lunatic with some gas and a handful of matches to show we're not welcome.

Yes, but it's not like they were "oh so close" to reaching any semblance of a civilized society and this ruined it all. They were/are a long way from reaching a level of behavior as a society that is close to western standards. Jones did a terrible thing and bears much blame, but brutality is far too common in that part of the world.

56 freetoken  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:53:31pm

re: #44 austin_blue

The level of tribalism/factionalism in The Big A is astounding.

re: #47 SanFranciscoZionist


Sad to say but the nature of humans is to be violent - we're rather violent apes, more violent than many primates.

Cultures all over the world have killed people for believing or saying the wrong thing.

That's why I wonder how long "modernity" - the universal spread of, dare I say it, liberal thinking - will survive.

57 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:53:39pm

re: #48 CuriousLurker

I'm not saying we haven't tried. I'm just commenting about who I think is going to suffer the most, i.e. the innocent, as usual.

Yes ... You are right. I do not disagree

58 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:53:42pm

re: #44 austin_blue

Fundamentalist Islam is an existential threat to any western system of personal freedom. They don't believe in it. And I am afraid this will play out very badly in the end.

59 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:54:59pm

re: #49 albusteve

I have not been a supporter of the Afghan fight since 04...I'm highly critical of Bush and congress to have allowed us to slug it out over there for little reason past that time...I was hoping BO the peacenik would end that fight, but he didn't and in the end it will all be for nothing...bet me

No bet here.

60 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:56:04pm

re: #58 Ojoe

Fundamentalist Islam is an existential threat to any western system of personal freedom. They don't believe in it. And I am afraid this will play out very badly in the end.

Quite Concur. But there's nothing for it: We cannot negotiate or refuse to fight. It's win or die.

61 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:56:36pm

re: #14 Max D. Reinhardt

so it is possible that the community could be relying on the word of one irresponsible firebrand Imam.

Need to put him in a cage fight with the Florida pastor.

62 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:57:23pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Yes its win or die.

Not popular to say that on this blog I suppose.

63 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:58:12pm

re: #54 justaminute

I've gone to one and hear about them. I do live in Oklahoma and am 1/16 Indian. But the borders of a reservation do not extend to the whole state like they do in Afghanistan.


come visit NM and get back with me about 'remotely like an Afghanistan village'...the Pueblo generally live in abject squalor...not at all like your America...and I stand by any similarities

64 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:58:55pm

All right, now I'm going to ask a question that's kinda boggled me. It's not a very good question to ask, and if it's too offensive then please delete it. I'm sorry if it causes too much trouble but I've been meaning to get it off my head for a while.

What's the difference between what Terry Jones did and what Kurt Westergaard did?

65 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:58:57pm

re: #62 Ojoe

Yes its win or die.

Not popular to say that on this blog I suppose.

It's never 'popular', its just true.

66 freetoken  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:59:11pm

re: #58 Ojoe

It's any type of "fundamentalism". What you call the "western system of personal freedom" is based on Enlightenment and later thinking, where reason is the basis for law and "rights" are assigned to people independent of any other single person (such as a king or religious leader) having the ability to declare them away.

The radical Hindus in India who go and kill muslims are just as destructive to democracy and freedom in India as the fundamentalist muslims.

And so forth.

Modern society, in the West and btw in the East too, is based on overcoming old superstitions and hatreds and using reason and cooperation.

67 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:59:53pm

re: #64 laZardo

All right, now I'm going to ask a question that's kinda boggled me. It's not a very good question to ask, and if it's too offensive then please delete it. I'm sorry if it causes too much trouble but I've been meaning to get it off my head for a while.

What's the difference between what Terry Jones did and what Kurt Westergaard did?

None, in my mind.

68 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 7:59:58pm

Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

Some church members were surprised by the violent reaction in Afghanistan on Friday, said Fran Ingram, an assistant at the church. She explained that it was decided in the weeks leading up to the burning that a jury of churchgoers and volunteers would hear both sides before deciding what to do.

In a statement, Mr. Jones demanded that the United States and United Nations take “immediate action” against Muslim nations in retaliation for the deaths. “The time has come to hold Islam accountable,” he said.

“It is not that we burn the Koran with some type of vindictive motive,” Mr. Jones said. “We do not even burn it with great pleasure or any pleasure at all. We burn it because we feel a deep obligation to stay with the court system of America. The court system of America does not allow convicted criminals to go free. And that is why we feel obligated to do this.”

69 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:00:09pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. But there's nothing for it: We cannot negotiate or refuse to fight. It's win or die.

re: #62 Ojoe

Yes its win or die.

Not popular to say that on this blog I suppose.

So how do you define "win" and how do you propose we go about doing it? Obviously, what we've been doing up till now isn't working.

70 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:00:12pm

re: #66 freetoken

Yes, fundamentalism of any stripe is the problem.

71 freetoken  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:00:46pm

re: #68 negativ

Jones wants his Holy War, and he wants it now.

72 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:00:57pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. But there's nothing for it: We cannot negotiate or refuse to fight. It's win or die.

what is the scenario where radical islam "wins" in a way that destroys the "western system of personal freedom"?

73 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:01:10pm

re: #67 Stanley Sea

Kurt Westergaard was a better artist. In fact I have his cartoon pinned to the cork board here in the office.

74 austin_blue  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:02:12pm

re: #50 ProLifeLiberal

The sad thing is that Afghanistan and Pakistan used to be better. Afghanistan was destroyed by the Soviet Invasion, and Pakistan ruined by Zia ul-Haq

I'd like to think so, but Zia in Pakistan is just the easiest target in a narrative that includes a series of military/civilian rulers who have consistently raided the Treasury. India has the second largest Muslim population in the world, and they are generally doing better and better, thank you, over the large majority of the country. Problems, yes, but it's getting better. Look at Bollywood. Huge Muslim influence.

I don't know that Afghanistan was ever "better". In the past, it was just largely ignored. Opium and the truly idiotic Soviet invasion made them relevant to the west.

75 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:03:19pm

re: #69 CuriousLurker

re: #62 Ojoe

So how do you define "win" and how do you propose we go about doing it? Obviously, what we've been doing up till now isn't working.

Sounds like gibberish to me

There's no winning, there's just people, and attitudes, all being shaped by each other and world events and water and resources and land and so on and so on

there are no victory conditions unless we abstract it into a game

76 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:03:43pm

re: #72 engineer dog

what is the scenario where radical islam "wins" in a way that destroys the "western system of personal freedom"?

sounds like a video game to me

WE CAN'T LET THE NECROMONGERS WIN

77 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:03:50pm

re: #69 CuriousLurker

If we would get away from needing any of the natural resources of the fundamentalist Islamic areas, that would be a start. It looks like to me that if you pull back far away & do not present yourself as a target, they will fight each other. Tragic, but better for us.

78 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:04:19pm

re: #76 WindUpBird

sounds like a video game to me

WE CAN'T LET THE NECROMONGERS WIN

Escape from Butcher Bay was better.

79 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:05:37pm

re: #65 Dark_Falcon

It's never 'popular', its just true.

so you are willing to 'die' in Astan?....for the children?
as a country, the most elite force of power on earth....die over there?....how many and for how long?, what is victory?....BO has no clue and good men are dying....that was Ho's point and you called him a troll, so call me one as well

80 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:05:39pm

re: #77 Ojoe

If we would get away from needing any of the natural resources of the fundamentalist Islamic areas, that would be a start. It looks like to me that if you pull back far away & do not present yourself as a target, they will fight each other. Tragic, but better for us.

might it occur to you that our need of their resources is precisely WHY they have such a problem with fundamentalism?

when we want their oil, we just care that they do our bidding :)

81 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:05:55pm

re: #64 laZardo

All right, now I'm going to ask a question that's kinda boggled me. It's not a very good question to ask, and if it's too offensive then please delete it. I'm sorry if it causes too much trouble but I've been meaning to get it off my head for a while.

What's the difference between what Terry Jones did and what Kurt Westergaard did?

Westergaard drew that cartoon to illustrate the problem of violent Islamists. He didn't do it out of bigotry, like Jones did. He wasn't condemning Islam, per se, but he was making a point about a problem with nutcases. Jones himself is a nutcase.

82 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:07:49pm

We defeated industrialized Nazis and the Soviets, but a small group of religious fanatics are an existential threat? Bullshit.

They are to be dealt with, not feared.

83 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:07:57pm

re: #81 Dark_Falcon

Westergaard drew that cartoon to illustrate the problem of violent Islamists. He didn't do it out of bigotry, like Jones did. He wasn't condemning Islam, per se, but he was making a point about a problem with nutcases. Jones himself is a nutcase.

how do you know Westies motives?...too much is simply assumed around here

84 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:07:59pm

Instead of actually saying what I am going to say, I'll just say this

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

85 celticdragon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:08:05pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

That isolated company was some of the few who did. The rifle companies at the main camp at Isandlwana were killed to the man.

Fun fact about Roarke's Drift: The Zulu amabutho (age based units roughly equivalent to regiments) at Roarke's Drift were the reserves of the Zulu field army, composed of older, married men. Most were in their late 30's to early 40's, and the Uthulwana amabutho still contained at least two half-brothers of King Cetshwayo.

I have an excellent book on Rourke's Drift.

Like Wolves on the Fold: The Defense of Rourke's Drift

86 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:08:22pm

re: #77 Ojoe

If we would get away from needing any of the natural resources of the fundamentalist Islamic areas, that would be a start. It looks like to me that if you pull back far away & do not present yourself as a target, they will fight each other. Tragic, but better for us.

That would certainly help, but it doesn't look like something that's going to happen any time soon. And even if we weaned ourselves from ME oil that whole area (particularly Central Asia) would still be of strategic importance geographically, so it wouldn't automatically remove our interest in the region.

87 freetoken  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:08:23pm

I've always called what we're trying to do in Afghanistan as "nation building", though GWB hated that term and his administration refused to use it.

It should be clear now why "nation building" is such a difficult job - most every little group and vested party ends up against it, sooner or later.

Multi-ethnic and multi-tribal countries tend to break apart. We discovered that at the beginning of our own nation, and during the Civil War.

It's a tough row we have chose to hoe. I'm not convinced we'll see it through.

88 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:08:23pm

re: #68 negativ

Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

So now he wants a generalized reprisal to "hold Islam accountable". Reminds me of the sort of thing the Germans did in both World Wars (Yes, I said both. The German Army engaged in reprisal killings of civilians during both World Wars.)

89 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:08:34pm

re: #80 WindUpBird

might it occur to you that our need of their resources is precisely WHY they have such a problem with fundamentalism?

I don't think that's true at all, they seem to have been fanatics for centuries.

Or, their own fundamentalism is just a minor problem if they don't have a lot of money, you mean.

90 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:08:48pm

re: #74 austin_blue

I've heard it said that the way the Soviets handled the occupation of Afghanistan, they dissolved the glue that held the nation together tribal wise. This occurred while the nation itself was being ravaged and wrecked physically.

In regards to Pakistan, I think Zia ul-Haq did have a wreck effect on Pakistan. I have no idea why he went with Islamization.

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:09:07pm

oh yeah and also this

The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, on August 19, 1953 (known as the 28 Mordad coup[1] in Iran), was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh orchestrated by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom and the United States.[2] The coup saw the transition of Mohammad-Rezā Shāh Pahlavi from a constitutional monarch to an authoritarian dictator who relied heavily on U.S. support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979.[3]

92 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:09:56pm

re: #91 WindUpBird

we forgot it quickly - indeed, most americans never knew about it - but the iranians never did

93 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:10:06pm

re: #84 WindUpBird

What? If not for that we would all just get along?

94 celticdragon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:10:17pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

So now he wants a generalized reprisal to "hold Islam accountable". Reminds me of the sort of thing the Germans did in both World Wars (Yes, I said both. The German Army engaged in reprisal killings of civilians during both World Wars.)

To some degree in Belgium during WW I, but probably nothing like what the propagandists in France made out.

In WW II, it was the other way around. The propagandists came nowhere close to how frakking bad the Germans were.

95 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:10:27pm

re: #89 Ojoe

I don't think that's true at all, they seem to have been fanatics for centuries.

Or, their own fundamentalism is just a minor problem if they don't have a lot of money, you mean.

We are empowering their fundamentalism as the US. I cannot be more clear than that. We are creating the precise conditions by which religious fanaticism can rise to more power.

96 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:10:47pm

re: #93 Naso Tang

What? If not for that we would all just get along?

?

97 austin_blue  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:10:51pm

re: #62 Ojoe

Yes its win or die.

Not popular to say that on this blog I suppose.

Really? You insult many of us. Given DF's position, the only way to "win" is to kill any potential terrorist, anywhere, which would practically mean destroying entire populations in numerous countries to make sure we got all of the bastards. Otherwise we will die. Unless I'm misreading you, DF?

What do we do about Oklahoma City?

I will suggest a third way:

Physical isolation from the west.

98 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:11:16pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

So now he wants a generalized reprisal to "hold Islam accountable". Reminds me of the sort of thing the Germans did in both World Wars (Yes, I said both. The German Army engaged in reprisal killings of civilians during both World Wars.)

and what of the Soviets, Churchills butt buddy Stalin?

99 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:11:46pm

A lot of the Middle East's recent history has been influenced by the decision of the British to switch their navy from coal burning to oil.

100 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:11:57pm

re: #89 Ojoe

The big problem is with Saudi Arabia. They seem to be a locus for all of this. In order for the Muslim World to recover from the past century, the Saudi State must disappear. Without their monetary support, many of the nutballs will recede into the darkness.

101 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:12:02pm

re: #92 engineer dog

we forgot it quickly - indeed, most americans never knew about it - but the iranians never did

yup! anyone who speaks of the middle east and what we should and should not be doing there, without knowing at least what Operation Ajax was and acknowledging our crimes against Iran really has absolutely zero credibility

102 celticdragon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:12:39pm

re: #98 albusteve

and what of the Soviets, Churchills butt buddy Stalin?

Not cool or accurate. I have little real love for Churchill, but he was not particularly friendly to Stalin. It was an alliance of convenience, and everybody knew it.

103 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:12:45pm

re: #91 WindUpBird

oh yeah and also this

That was actually a good idea when we did it. We needed to keep Iran in the fold, and Mosaddegh was leaning in the Soviet Union's direction. It could have worked entirely had Pahlavi governed better.

104 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:12:48pm

re: #97 austin_blue

Physical isolation from the West seems ideal to me.

Means from modern India too though.

105 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:13:06pm

re: #95 WindUpBird

We are empowering their fundamentalism as the US. I cannot be more clear than that. We are creating the precise conditions by which religious fanaticism can rise to more power.

yuppers...get used to it, it's the new pink

106 celticdragon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:13:19pm

BBL. Stuff to do.

107 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:13:44pm

re: #92 engineer dog

we forgot it quickly - indeed, most americans never knew about it - but the iranians never did

The question is what to do now, in 2011. Leaving them alone is giving them room to expand their influence.

108 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:14:01pm

re: #100 ProLifeLiberal

many of the nutballs will recede into the darkness.

Well I hope so.

109 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:14:04pm

re: #97 austin_blue

Really? You insult many of us. Given DF's position, the only way to "win" is to kill any potential terrorist, anywhere, which would practically mean destroying entire populations in numerous countries to make sure we got all of the bastards. Otherwise we will die. Unless I'm misreading you, DF?

What do we do about Oklahoma City?

I will suggest a third way:

Physical isolation from the west.

Abstract silliness. "Win!" Like it's a game. We install these dictator puppets of ours, ruin their countries and take all their shit, and then stand there like a kid with ice cream on his shirt when they finally rage up. "Look at them go! Take all their stuff! Then get outraged as fat rich white Americans who don't understand why they hate us so much! Whee!"


seriously, what the fuck

110 freetoken  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:14:26pm

re: #99 Ojoe

I can see where that was a factor, but I also know that the US was the leading oil producing nation for the first century of oil. Yes, the British occupation of parts of SW Asia and N. Africa played into the British Empire's need for oil, but I suspect they would have wanted to keep those areas under their control even without the oil there, given the strategic location between West and the Far East.

111 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:14:28pm

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

That was actually a good idea when we did it. We needed to keep Iran in the fold, and Mosaddegh was leaning in the Soviet Union's direction. It could have worked entirely had Pahlavi governed better.

Oh God I cannot deal with this right wing silliness right now, sorry

112 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:14:46pm

re: #97 austin_blue

Really? You insult many of us. Given DF's position, the only way to "win" is to kill any potential terrorist, anywhere, which would practically mean destroying entire populations in numerous countries to make sure we got all of the bastards. Otherwise we will die. Unless I'm misreading you, DF?

What do we do about Oklahoma City?

I will suggest a third way:

Physical isolation from the west.

You are misreading me. Actual threats have to be dealt with, but you don't use mass killings. I've never supported that. Sorry I wasn't clear.

113 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:14:46pm

re: #105 albusteve

New pink ?

114 Political Atheist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:14:56pm

re: #101 WindUpBird
Would you consider this though?
Call it western values being imposed if you want but... Women and Jews were far better off.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: www.jewishjournal.com...]

115 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:15:04pm

re: #102 celticdragon

Not cool or accurate. I have little real love for Churchill, but he was not particularly friendly to Stalin. It was an alliance of convenience, and everybody knew it.

I didn't say he was friendly, which is why he hid his agreements with Joe from the US concerning Poland and Greece etc...Winston gobbled one

116 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:15:45pm

So if you kick a dog and torture it with a cigarette lighter over and over, and then it finally bites you?

And then you shoot it to death for biting you? Is that what we call winning?

117 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:16:04pm

re: #110 freetoken

Especially after the completion of the Suez Canal in 1869.

118 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:17:17pm

re: #36 CuriousLurker

re: #22 jamesfirecat

And it'll be the innocent & vulnerable—women & children who—suffer most from the loss of help. I say innocent because I find it highly unlikely that any Afghan women would have been out in the street with the mob that attacked the UN compound.

That's the problem. The people who need these folks most are not the people who attacked them, or have any control over the situation.

119 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:17:20pm

re: #94 celticdragon

To some degree in Belgium during WW I, but probably nothing like what the propagandists in France made out.

In WW II, it was the other way around. The propagandists came nowhere close to how frakking bad the Germans were.

John Keegan wrote well about it in his one volume history of WWI. It was inflated by propaganda, but the German Army clearly did engage in atrocities in Belgium and did so as acts of deliberate policy. Hitler adopted the reprisal policy of the army he served in and took it to new and terrifying heights.

120 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:17:25pm

re: #114 Rightwingconspirator

Would you consider this though?
Call it western values being imposed if you want but... Women and Jews were far better off.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: www.jewishjournal.com...]

yeah, that totally means we did a great thing by installing a dictator puppet. No, I am sorry, no.

121 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:17:38pm

re: #95 WindUpBird

We are empowering their fundamentalism as the US. I cannot be more clear than that. We are creating the precise conditions by which religious fanaticism can rise to more power.

Are we also responsible for Pakistanis killing anyone who opposes death for blasphemy, for example?

I think it is more correct to say that primitive cultural fanaticism cannot survive in this global world without external enemies and excuses. If not one it will be another.

122 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:17:38pm

re: #113 Ojoe

New pink ?

it's the new passion

123 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:19:32pm

I'm still trying to figure out how you physically isolate "them". Them who? All Muslims or just radical Islamists? If just the Islamists, then how do you sieve them out?

124 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:19:36pm

re: #71 freetoken

Jones wants his Holy War, and he wants it now.

But apparently he's not willing to fight in it. Seriously, let him get his ass to Afghanistan and be martyred for his faith if he wants to, but this nonsense just puts innocent people in harm's way.

And it's not like harm's way is hard to find from the main road in Afghanistan.

125 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:19:57pm

re: #108 Ojoe

I don't think you (or most others) understand how much the Saudis have put their fingers into. Let's not forget that alot of this started in the late 70's-early 80's, whenever they started spending money on materials spreading Wahhabism and Salafist "ideas."

The Ottoman Empire tried for the last 100 or so years of their existence to stamp it out. They saw it as a threat after the the Ottoman-Saudi War in the 1810's. They didn't know how right they were.

126 Political Atheist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:20:04pm

re: #120 WindUpBird

You seem to presume the choice to be of two extremes. The Shah was good or he was bad. Well, it's just not that simple, as in unfair to look at the real effect the fall of the Shah has had on Women and minorities including Jewish Iranians. Reality includes the whole picture.

127 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:20:06pm

re: #114 Rightwingconspirator

Would you consider this though?
Call it western values being imposed if you want but... Women and Jews were far better off.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: www.jewishjournal.com...]

especially because it didn't exactly take, did it? Spirit of '79

128 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:20:26pm

re: #121 Naso Tang

I think they don't need the modern world to sustain their fanaticism, nor external enemies; Shia and Sunni have been at odds since almost the beginning.

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:20:27pm

re: #79 albusteve

so you are willing to 'die' in Astan?...for the children?
as a country, the most elite force of power on earth...die over there?...how many and for how long?, what is victory?...BO has no clue and good men are dying...that was Ho's point and you called him a troll, so call me one as well

No, I think Ho's point was that anyone who goes to a dangerous place to do good is an idiot. I took exception to that.

130 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:20:43pm

re: #107 laZardo

The question is what to do now, in 2011. Leaving them alone is giving them room to expand their influence.

trying to "fix" them doesn't seem to have worked out as a solution either

131 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:21:10pm

re: #100 ProLifeLiberal

The big problem is with Saudi Arabia. They seem to be a locus for all of this. In order for the Muslim World to recover from the past century, the Saudi State must disappear. Without their monetary support, many of the nutballs will recede into the darkness.

They are one source of funds, mostly private, just as Iran is another, mostly state.

You cannot wish Saudi away without likely regretting what you wish for. Given that one cannot wish things away, at this time Saudi is a stabilizing influence more than the other.

132 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:21:36pm

re: #122 albusteve

Fighting urge to hate on mid-90's Aerosmith...

133 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:21:48pm

re: #127 WindUpBird

Also, I'm pretty sure things under Mossadegh were not bad for either group. In any case, the US committed a great wrong by doing that.

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:22:25pm

re: #82 Girth

We defeated industrialized Nazis and the Soviets, but a small group of religious fanatics are an existential threat? Bullshit.

They are to be dealt with, not feared.

Said it before, I'll say it again. We took down the Nazis, and we brought the Japanese Empire to its knees. We kicked the ass of the USSR, and still had time for lunch and dinner.

These people ain't shit.

I feel horribly sorry for those who live within reaching distance of their tribal brutality, but an existential threat to America they ain't.

135 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:22:51pm

re: #109 WindUpBird

Abstract silliness. "Win!" Like it's a game. We install these dictator puppets of ours, ruin their countries and take all their shit, and then stand there like a kid with ice cream on his shirt when they finally rage up. "Look at them go! Take all their stuff! Then get outraged as fat rich white Americans who don't understand why they hate us so much! Whee!"

seriously, what the fuck

Don't we pay them for their stuff? Around a hundred bucks a barrel? And didn't we also help them develop those resources?

136 Lidane  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:23:00pm

I've been out of the house all day today (New phone! Woo!) and just saw this thread and the one before it, so apologies for the late entry.

So let me see if I understand what happened. Basically, a bunch of crazy fundamentalists here in America burned the Qu'ran, pissing off fundamentalists in Afghanistan who then attacked UN workers in overwhelming numbers, killing people in the process. Now the UN is going to leave because it's too dangerous, and the crazy fundamentalists here think that Islam is to blame for what happened. Does that about sum things up?

Gee. I can't imagine why anyone would get angry when you burn their sacred text. That doesn't justify the UN worker deaths, of course, but there's a reason that the military and high level people here in government were begging Jones and his idiots not to burn the Qu'ran in the first place.

137 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:23:04pm

re: #126 Rightwingconspirator

You seem to presume the choice to be of two extremes. The Shah was good or he was bad. Well, it's just not that simple, as in unfair to look at the real effect the fall of the Shah has had on Women and minorities including Jewish Iranians. Reality includes the whole picture.

Installing authoritarian dictators and taking the wealth of countries is bad, yes.

I honestly don't care how great Jewish people had it under Iran under the shah.

because, and I emphasize

THE VERY FACT THAT WE INSTALLED THE SHAH MEANT THE 79 REVOLUTION WAS 100% INEVITABLE.


We Americans, we...don't look far ahead. We're dumb animals. "I'm America! I'll make you stop being bigots! Dumb fatso has a gun to your head!"

yeah, that wasn't destined for disaster, noooooo

138 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:23:06pm

re: #123 CuriousLurker

I'm still trying to figure out how you physically isolate "them". Them who? All Muslims or just radical Islamists? If just the Islamists, then how do you sieve them out?

Why that's easy. Show them cartoons. Koran burning is crude and uses more paper than necessary.

139 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:23:17pm

re: #119 Dark_Falcon

In WW1 the Germans burnt the whole city of Louvain, library included.

140 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:24:13pm

re: #132 Girth

Fighting urge to hate on mid-90's Aerosmith...

I'm not a huge fan, but they survived and some of their stuff is pretty good...I consider 'Pink' to be a monster classic...
'I want to wrap you in rubba!'

141 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:24:31pm

BBL

142 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:24:42pm

re: #134 SanFranciscoZionist

Said it before, I'll say it again. We took down the Nazis, and we brought the Japanese Empire to its knees. We kicked the ass of the USSR, and still had time for lunch and dinner.

These people ain't shit.

I feel horribly sorry for those who live within reaching distance of their tribal brutality, but an existential threat to America they ain't.

Amen, sister.

143 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:25:06pm

re: #120 WindUpBird

yeah, that totally means we did a great thing by installing a dictator puppet. No, I am sorry, no.

Not to mention that when said puppet went down, things got worse than they had previously been.

144 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:25:11pm

re: #134 SanFranciscoZionist

Said it before, I'll say it again. We took down the Nazis, and we brought the Japanese Empire to its knees. We kicked the ass of the USSR, and still had time for lunch and dinner.

These people ain't shit.

I feel horribly sorry for those who live within reaching distance of their tribal brutality, but an existential threat to America they ain't.

I like your tude....
come get some!

145 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:25:25pm

re: #131 Naso Tang

re: #131 Naso Tang

Putting it bluntly, I think the Saudi government needs to be liquidated. They are still spending tons of money trying to spread fanaticist and poisoned forms of Islam at the expense of Traditional forms.

146 Political Atheist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:26:18pm

re: #127 WindUpBird

The secular, women, the Jewish population, and the numerous other religious minorities all were better off then than now. The recent unrest there showed the secular progressive Persian spirit still lives. Didn't stick but lives.

147 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:26:21pm

re: #140 albusteve

I'm not a huge fan, but they survived and some of their stuff is pretty good...I consider 'Pink' to be a monster classic...
'I want to wrap you in rubba!'

Pink is my exception to the rule.

148 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:26:27pm

re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist

Not to mention that when said puppet went down, things got worse than they had previously been.

PRECISELY, EXACTLY

149 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:26:36pm

re: #146 Rightwingconspirator

The secular, women, the Jewish population, and the numerous other religious minorities all were better off then than now. The recent unrest there showed the secular progressive Persian spirit still lives. Didn't stick but lives.

you are not listening to me

150 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:26:36pm

re: #138 Naso Tang

Why that's easy. Show them cartoons. Koran burning is crude and uses more paper than necessary.

Oh jeeze.

151 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:26:49pm

re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist

Not to mention that when said puppet went down, things got worse than they had previously been.

UNPOSSIBLE!

152 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:27:01pm

re: #146 Rightwingconspirator

The secular, women, the Jewish population, and the numerous other religious minorities all were better off then than now. The recent unrest there showed the secular progressive Persian spirit still lives. Didn't stick but lives.

maybe at least listen to SFZ? You know, the ZIONIST? ;-)

153 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:27:13pm

re: #139 Ojoe

In WW1 the Germans burnt the whole city of Louvain, library included.

in WW2 they demolished Warsaw and killed over 200k people...nice guys, eh?

154 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:28:10pm

re: #134 SanFranciscoZionist

Said it before, I'll say it again. We took down the Nazis, and we brought the Japanese Empire to its knees. We kicked the ass of the USSR, and still had time for lunch and dinner.

These people ain't shit.

I feel horribly sorry for those who live within reaching distance of their tribal brutality, but an existential threat to America they ain't.

We couldn't face down a bunch of farmers with AKs in their rice paddies.

155 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:28:30pm

re: #138 Naso Tang

Why that's easy. Show them cartoons. Koran burning is crude and uses more paper than necessary.

Sure, let's insult all Muslims and assume that the radicals are so stupid they won't smell a trap and save their revenge for later.. Yeah, uh-huh, that'll work. I wonder why we haven't tried it yet?

156 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:29:19pm

re: #147 Girth

Pink is my exception to the rule.

on behalf of you, the Girth, I will refrain from posting anymore ASmith....
respect, mon

157 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:29:25pm

re: #154 laZardo

We couldn't face down a bunch of farmers with AKs in their rice paddies.

We're still here.

158 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:30:14pm

re: #123 CuriousLurker

I'm still trying to figure out how you physically isolate "them". Them who? All Muslims or just radical Islamists? If just the Islamists, then how do you sieve them out?

I vote for just the radicals. It's a whole different issue in the M.E. Afghanistan, Iran, the Israeli territories. But to me, in Afghanistan, it's still sometimes 1 step forward, 2 steps back. It could certainly get a lot worse and the more reason we need some kind of presence there still.

Incitement is a real thing though and why we have some kind of hate laws in the U.S. Why Facebook finally took down that anti-Semitic page that got real violent. I think Terry Jones needs another phone call from DoJ.

159 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:30:52pm

re: #154 laZardo

We couldn't face down a bunch of farmers with AKs in their rice paddies.

you are another poor misinformed child of the media....you know nothing

160 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:30:53pm

re: #154 laZardo

We couldn't face down a bunch of farmers with AKs in their rice paddies.

we would have handled them in short order if they had made the mistake of trying go take over and fight in other people's countries

instead, we were the ones who made that mistake

"amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics"

161 Political Atheist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:31:50pm

re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist
re: #152 WindUpBird

maybe at least listen to SFZ? You know, the ZIONIST? ;-)

Yes, the next regime was worse than the Shah. I do not deny that at all. I do not even claim the people who were better off was reason to install the Shah. My point is the situation included the facts I linked and the whole issue far more nuanced than what WindUpBird presented.

162 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:32:32pm

re: #137 WindUpBird

Installing Pahlavi did not make his overthrow inevitable. There are many things Pahlavi could have done better. he should have 'disappeared' Khomeini instead of exiling him, for example. Another idea would have been to not push for social change quite as fast.

163 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:32:37pm

re: #156 albusteve

on behalf of you, the Girth, I will refrain from posting anymore ASmith...
respect, mon

Oh, don't be like that dude.

164 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:32:42pm

re: #137 WindUpBird

No it wasn't inevitable, but it happened. One could just as easily claim that without Ataturk Turkey would be an Islamist state, or one can claim that there were many revolutionaries who then, and even now, wanted a revolution. In Iran it succeeded and in Turkey, so far, it has not.

If predicting cause and effect was as easy as you claim human history would be unrecognizable compared with what it is.

165 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:32:45pm

re: #146 Rightwingconspirator

They were well off under Mossadegh too. Again, we made a massive mistake with the coup against Mossadegh, and the backlash caused the government you see now.

166 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:33:00pm

re: #160 engineer dog

we would have handled them in short order if they had made the mistake of trying go take over and fight in other people's countries

instead, we were the ones who made that mistake

"amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics"

we clobbered the Viet Cong, then fucked up the NVA so bad they couldn't even field a combat regiment for 3 years...so wtf are you talking about?

167 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:34:31pm

re: #154 laZardo

We couldn't face down a bunch of farmers with AKs in their rice paddies.

We could and we did. But we didn't have a plan to win till 1969, and even then we didn't have the competent South Vietnamese government that was needed for any lasting victory.

168 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:34:40pm

I think I'll go read the sermon on the mount.

Good night.

169 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:35:16pm

re: #158 marjoriemoon

I vote for just the radicals. It's a whole different issue in the M.E. Afghanistan, Iran, the Israeli territories. But to me, in Afghanistan, it's still sometimes 1 step forward, 2 steps back. It could certainly get a lot worse and the more reason we need some kind of presence there still.

Incitement is a real thing though and why we have some kind of hate laws in the U.S. Why Facebook finally took down that anti-Semitic page that got real violent. I think Terry Jones needs another phone call from DoJ.

I was actually referring to the ME, not the West. I don't see how we could isolate radicals in the U.S. unless they broke some laws. If not, they'd enjoy the same free speech as everyone else. Hate speech laws would have to be tougher, and would have to be applied across the board.

170 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:35:21pm

re: #166 albusteve

Also, I think the Vietnamese may just be naturally badass. Not even a few years after we left, they went in and attack the Khmer Rouge. China, in response, attacked, trying to force out the Vietnamese government. The Vietnamese won on both fronts. And they had everything against them. So the fact we fought them to a draw is impressive on its own.

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:36:12pm

re: #146 Rightwingconspirator

The secular, women, the Jewish population, and the numerous other religious minorities all were better off then than now. The recent unrest there showed the secular progressive Persian spirit still lives. Didn't stick but lives.

Is there reason to believe that the Shah represented a distinct improvement over what came before?

172 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:36:25pm

re: #168 Ojoe

I think I'll go read the sermon on the mount.

Good night.

Oh, it's blessed are the MEEK! Oh, I'm glad they're getting something, they have a hell of a time.

173 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:37:03pm

re: #170 ProLifeLiberal

Also, I think the Vietnamese may just be naturally badass. Not even a few years after we left, they went in and attack the Khmer Rouge. China, in response, attacked, trying to force out the Vietnamese government. The Vietnamese won on both fronts. And they had everything against them. So the fact we fought them to a draw is impressive on its own.

And because China also backed the Khmer Rouge and America was trying to build relationships with China, guess who we ended up backing.

174 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:37:11pm

I think this is relevant and important:

It's about the notion that ideas (fundamentalist Islam, in this case) operate much like genes. A gene's purpose is to propagate itself. So too with an idea. A gene doesn't have to be beneficial to its host, and in fact can be fatally harmful to its host. So too with an idea.

We will never, ever stop terrorism -- probably not at all, but certainly not by military means alone. The only hope is to make the idea of it unappealing to those who are most likely to carry it out. You can't bomb an idea. You can, however, make an idea shameful.

Continuing to behave as though the ultimate solution is to Git Tuff and Git 'r Done and Don't Blink and bomb the shit out of everyone will ensure that the problem continues and grows. The task is to figure out how to change an idea that is going to fight tooth and nail to avoid changing.

175 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:37:24pm

re: #154 laZardo

We couldn't face down a bunch of farmers with AKs in their rice paddies.

True, but when we packed that one in, international Communism didn't creep over us all like it was supposed to.

And the VC didn't follow us home.

Except for Phred. Whatever happened to Phred?

176 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:37:32pm

re: #173 laZardo

Mind, there are never any easy choices. But I think it was Kissinger that once asked, "Can't they both lose?"

177 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:37:38pm

re: #166 albusteve

we clobbered the Viet Cong, then fucked up the NVA so bad they couldn't even field a combat regiment for 3 years...so wtf are you talking about?

considering that we were the most technologically advanced and wealthy nation on the face of the earth, with 4 times the population of vietnam, and that we expended ten years or so and a very large number of american lives, only to decide in the end that we weren't making any progress, and ultimately had to leave the battlefield in possession of our opponents, i'd say wtf are you talking about?

178 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:38:37pm

re: #177 engineer dog

considering that we were the most technologically advanced and wealthy nation on the face of the earth, with 4 times the population of vietnam, and that we expended ten years or so and a very large number of american lives, only to decide in the end that we weren't making any progress, and ultimately had to leave the battlefield in possession of our opponents, i'd say wtf are you talking about?

We merely advanced in the opposite direction.

179 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:39:34pm

Are we seriously discussing that we didn't lose in Vietnam?
Or that installing the Shah was a mistake?

180 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:39:35pm

re: #170 ProLifeLiberal

Also, I think the Vietnamese may just be naturally badass. Not even a few years after we left, they went in and attack the Khmer Rouge. China, in response, attacked, trying to force out the Vietnamese government. The Vietnamese won on both fronts. And they had everything against them. So the fact we fought them to a draw is impressive on its own.

I get tired of the pop history....our men severely ruined the NVA, we WON that fight in the field...the goddamned donks sold the RSVN down the river and tossed it all away...one long reason I'm distrustful of fucking democrats...they have no guts, no nerve, and cutting is their strategy when things get tough...BO has been a welcome surprise

181 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:39:52pm

re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but when we packed that one in, international Communism didn't creep over us all like it was supposed to.

And the VC didn't follow us home.

Except for Phred. Whatever happened to Phred?

That's mainly because the US then shored up nearby dictatorships to cushion the domino effect. Marcos, for example. That and building diplomacy with China, to make them "our s.o.b's."

182 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:40:16pm

re: #179 Varek Raith

Are we seriously discussing that we didn't lose in Vietnam?
Or that installing the Shah was a mistake?

amazing, isn't it?

183 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:40:30pm

re: #173 laZardo

Yeah, not a proud moment in our history. Of course, I despise Kissinger for a number of reasons. He may have saved Israel, but other things he did more than compensated for that little bit of good.

184 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:40:33pm

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

Is there reason to believe that the Shah represented a distinct improvement over what came before?

If it was an "improvement," it was due to the fact that we threw our new "friend" plenty of money, firepower, and technology in exchange for preferential access to the country's oil resources. We didn't care that the Shah was little more than a dictator, because he was our dictator.

185 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:40:40pm

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

Is there reason to believe that the Shah represented a distinct improvement over what came before?

Yes, because he was loyal to us and more stable than Mosaddegh. Mosaddegh was a loose cannon and we couldn't risk him siding with the USSR.

Interesting fact: Kermit Roosevelt (grandson of TR) was the driving force behind the removal of Mosaddegh. The coup would have failed had he not shown the force of character his family was famous for.

186 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:41:05pm

re: #179 Varek Raith

Are we seriously discussing that we didn't lose in Vietnam?
Or that installing the Shah was a mistake?

"SHUT UP!!! We did not lose Vietnam!! It was a tie!!"

God, I love that movie.

187 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:41:19pm

re: #169 CuriousLurker

I was actually referring to the ME, not the West. I don't see how we could isolate radicals in the U.S. unless they broke some laws. If not, they'd enjoy the same free speech as everyone else. Hate speech laws would have to be tougher, and would have to be applied across the board.

This is the issue, isn't it. Is this Terry Jones' free speech rights? I'm very big on the first amendment even if it's bad speech. But this has gone international and blown out of proportion. I honestly haven't sorted it out. It's reminiscent of the Danish cartoons.

188 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:41:20pm

re: #145 ProLifeLiberal

re: #131 Naso Tang

Putting it bluntly, I think the Saudi government needs to be liquidated. They are still spending tons of money trying to spread fanaticist and poisoned forms of Islam at the expense of Traditional forms.

OK. You liquidate them, along with a major portion of the population that shares whatever you mean by "poisoned forms", and there are many many of them. (Genocide?)

Then what do you envisage takes the place?

Let's try to stick to realities and practicalities here. The best scenario for Saudi is gradual change from within. Half their population under 20 and it can go towards the west gradually or it can collapse into dictatorship (it is not that now, it is a monarchy) and chaos.

189 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:41:42pm

re: #179 Varek Raith

Are we seriously discussing that we didn't lose in Vietnam?
Or that installing the Shah was a mistake?

hahahahah I KNOW RITE? :D


what can ya do

190 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:42:35pm

re: #177 engineer dog

considering that we were the most technologically advanced and wealthy nation on the face of the earth, with 4 times the population of vietnam, and that we expended ten years or so and a very large number of american lives, only to decide in the end that we weren't making any progress, and ultimately had to leave the battlefield in possession of our opponents, i'd say wtf are you talking about?

you're an idiot on the subject....read up if you want to contribute...your media slant is all wrong....by 71 there was nobody to fight...get a book

191 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:43:14pm

re: #186 SanFranciscoZionist

"SHUT UP!!! We did not lose Vietnam!! It was a tie!!"

God, I love that movie.

K-K-K-K-K-KEN! COMING TO k-K-K-K-K-K-K-KILL ME

192 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:43:23pm

re: #186 SanFranciscoZionist

"SHUT UP!!! We did not lose Vietnam!! It was a tie!!"

God, I love that movie.

I'm tellin' ya baby, they kicked your little ass there. Boy, they whooped yer hide REAL GOOD!

193 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:43:30pm

re: #190 albusteve

you're an idiot on the subject...read up if you want to contribute...your media slant is all wrong...by 71 there was nobody to fight...get a book

this is a very poor argument

194 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:43:39pm

re: #179 Varek Raith

Are we seriously discussing that we didn't lose in Vietnam?
Or that installing the Shah was a mistake?

are you stupid too?....tell me how the US was defeated in the field...do it

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:43:51pm

re: #185 Dark_Falcon

Yes, because he was loyal to us and more stable than Mosaddegh. Mosaddegh was a loose cannon and we couldn't risk him siding with the USSR.

Interesting fact: Kermit Roosevelt (grandson of TR) was the driving force behind the removal of Mosaddegh. The coup would have failed had he not shown the force of character his family was famous for.

Hold it. You're talking about the American advantage, which, I will remind you, didn't last either.

RWC was talking about the benefit to the women and Jews of the region.

196 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:44:03pm

re: #185 Dark_Falcon

Yes, because he was loyal to us and more stable than Mosaddegh. Mosaddegh was a loose cannon and we couldn't risk him siding with the USSR.

Interesting fact: Kermit Roosevelt (grandson of TR) was the driving force behind the removal of Mosaddegh. The coup would have failed had he not shown the force of character his family was famous for.

Is it any wonder that so few take us seriously when we talk about lofty things like democracy and freedom, when we've spent decades bankrolling dictators and warlords, so long as they way Ol' Glory when accepting the checks we write them?

197 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:44:27pm

re: #177 engineer dog

considering that we were the most technologically advanced and wealthy nation on the face of the earth, with 4 times the population of vietnam, and that we expended ten years or so and a very large number of american lives, only to decide in the end that we weren't making any progress, and ultimately had to leave the battlefield in possession of our opponents, i'd say wtf are you talking about?

We didn't leave them the battlefield. When we withdrew, it was intended that we would continue to support South Vietnam materially and from the air if needed. But that plan foundered when its architect, Richard Nixon, lost his bargaining power with Congress by covering up a shabby third-rate burglary. Had Watergate not happened, the denoument of the Vietnam War might have been very different.

198 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:44:38pm

re: #193 engineer dog

this is a very poor argument

you deserve less....you are typically uninformed, yet know all the donk talking points, which are worthless

199 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:44:41pm

re: #195 SanFranciscoZionist

Hold it. You're talking about the American advantage, which, I will remind you, didn't last either.

this

200 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:44:56pm

re: #194 albusteve

are you stupid too?...tell me how the US was defeated in the field...do it

South Vietnam no longer exists.
We had to retreat.
Fall of Saigon.
Ring any bells?
Face it, we lost.

201 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:45:00pm

re: #96 WindUpBird

?

Do you need me to use sarcs more?

202 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:45:00pm

re: #188 Naso Tang

No, you allow the old forms to come back to the front. Saudi Arabia oppresses the other forms of Islam, even other Sunni groups. Without the money to support the fanatics, they will have a much harder time getting their message across, and other forms of Sunni Islam will come back in at take care of the rest.

203 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:45:30pm

re: #196 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Is it any wonder that so few take us seriously when we talk about lofty things like democracy and freedom, when we've spent decades bankrolling dictators and warlords, so long as they way Ol' Glory when accepting the checks we write them?

And now it seems we're about to do the same with Libya.

204 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:45:43pm

re: #187 marjoriemoon

This is the issue, isn't it. Is this Terry Jones' free speech rights? I'm very big on the first amendment even if it's bad speech. But this has gone international and blown out of proportion. I honestly haven't sorted it out. It's reminiscent of the Danish cartoons.

I do not really see a way in which we can or should take away free speech from U.S. citizens on the grounds that it may cause people to cause crimes.

205 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:46:06pm

re: #137 WindUpBird

We Americans, we...don't look far ahead.

We think in 4-year election cycles, and that's 75% of our Big Problem. There's never a thought for The Big Picture, and with the way history is[n't] taught in US schools, it's no fucking wonder.

Once upon a time, there was a country whose currency was the world standard; that had the world's most powerful military; and that was the dominant political influence across most of the world. That country was Great Britain, circa 1900. The idea of "American exceptionalism" has an entirely too huge influence on how we interact with the rest of the world, and ultimately it will serve to relegate us to 2nd or 3rd place, where we will stay.

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:46:07pm

re: #191 WindUpBird

K-K-K-K-K-KEN! COMING TO k-K-K-K-K-K-K-KILL ME

AVENGE WANDA!!!!

207 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:46:21pm

re: #200 Varek Raith

South Vietnam no longer exists.
We had to retreat.
Fall of Saigon.
Ring any bells?
Face it, we lost.

Think of it like talkin' to a Neo-Confederate, Varek. We didn't lose, we had them where we wanted them, but then we went and surrendered instead of pressing on to victory!

208 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:46:46pm

re: #194 albusteve

are you stupid too?...tell me how the US was defeated in the field...do it

tell us how our objective of supporting a vietnamese government allied with the united states was achieved?

or perhaps we fought in vietnam so that the soviet or communist chinese allied government would have the opportunity to kill several hundred thousand americans before they did it

209 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:47:03pm

re: #174 negativ

I think this is relevant and important:

[Video]It's about the notion that ideas (fundamentalist Islam, in this case) operate much like genes. A gene's purpose is to propagate itself. So too with an idea. A gene doesn't have to be beneficial to its host, and in fact can be fatally harmful to its host. So too with an idea.

We will never, ever stop terrorism -- probably not at all, but certainly not by military means alone. The only hope is to make the idea of it unappealing to those who are most likely to carry it out. You can't bomb an idea. You can, however, make an idea shameful.

Continuing to behave as though the ultimate solution is to Git Tuff and Git 'r Done and Don't Blink and bomb the shit out of everyone will ensure that the problem continues and grows. The task is to figure out how to change an idea that is going to fight tooth and nail to avoid changing.

It's not genetic, it's cultural which goes to the core, the lifestyle, the thought process. I'm talking about the Taliban, AlQ, Hamas, not all followers of Islam. There's only one way to deal with it and that's defeat it as much as you can to let the moderates rise up. Which actually they seem to be doing, hopefully.

Our problem may be who to support. We haven't always done that well in the past (i.e Sadaam Hussein). I don't know what's going on with Karzai.

210 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:47:33pm

re: #200 Varek Raith

South Vietnam no longer exists.
We had to retreat.
Fall of Saigon.
Ring any bells?
Face it, we lost.

bullshit...you have no clue either it seems, but rant on

211 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:47:55pm

re: #198 albusteve

you deserve less...you are typically uninformed, yet know all the donk talking points, which are worthless

when you're trying to get out of a hole, stop digging

212 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:48:00pm

re: #210 albusteve

bullshit...you have no clue either it seems, but rant on

Okely dokely neighborino.

213 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:48:04pm

re: #196 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Is it any wonder that so few take us seriously when we talk about lofty things like democracy and freedom, when we've spent decades bankrolling dictators and warlords, so long as they way Ol' Glory when accepting the checks we write them?

I don't expect them to take us seriously. We've got ideals that practical considerations prevent us from living up to. I sometimes think we'd be better off just admitted some actions were taken out of amoral strategic calculus with no real concern for those directly affected. But then I wake up, because its better to be seen as a hypocrite than a sociopath.

214 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:48:07pm

We are trying so hard to get #uterus trending on twitter.

Zirgar ZIRGAR
by AngryBlackLady

The Flaming Lips #UterusPunkBands

215 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:48:15pm

re: #203 laZardo

And now it seems we're about to do the same with Libya.

Did anybody really expect differently? Before he started raining death on his people's heads, we were already working to polish the turd that is Gaddafi, painting him as a "friend" after decades of being a loony dictator. Regardless of who wins, you really believe the status quo will change? Not so long as the human race remains dependent on "cheap" oil.

216 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:48:38pm

re: #187 marjoriemoon

This is the issue, isn't it. Is this Terry Jones' free speech rights? I'm very big on the first amendment even if it's bad speech. But this has gone international and blown out of proportion. I honestly haven't sorted it out. It's reminiscent of the Danish cartoons.

Yeah, this whole freedom thing can get pretty sticky sometimes.

217 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:48:48pm

re: #138 Naso Tang

Why that's easy. Show them cartoons. Koran burning is crude and uses more paper than necessary.

Oh give me a break with the dings folks. I answered what could only have been a facetious question with a facetious answer.

218 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:49:07pm

We won Vietnam!
ALRIGHT!
Or something.

219 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:49:23pm

re: #208 engineer dog

tell us how our objective of supporting a vietnamese government allied with the united states was achieved?

or perhaps we fought in vietnam so that the soviet or communist chinese allied government would have the opportunity to kill several hundred thousand americans before they did it

those questions are not what I'm addressing...I'm talking military success

220 calochortus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:49:44pm

re: #194 albusteve

are you stupid too?...tell me how the US was defeated in the field...do it

OK, I can't stand it any longer. My husband was on the Midway when Saigon fell. Yes, fell. We lost. When anyone who can is flying out on anything they can get to fly, landing on an aircraft carrier where they are shoving the aircraft off the deck as fast as they can to let other aircraft land. That is a defeat. What don't you understand about that?

221 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:49:48pm

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

I don't expect them to take us seriously. We've got ideals that practical considerations prevent us from living up to. I sometimes think we'd be better off just admitted some actions were taken out of amoral strategic calculus with no real concern for those directly affected. But then I wake up, because its better to be seen as a hypocrite than a sociopath.

Yeah, it's better that folks die under the lash of a dictator thousands of miles away, so long as he's buyin' the lash from us. If he sends demonstrators who wish to overthrow him and install a democratic government off to be tortured and executed, we pay no mind, because hey, at least he's "on our side."

222 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:49:50pm

re: #214 Stanley Sea

We are trying so hard to get #uterus trending on twitter.

Zirgar ZIRGAR
by AngryBlackLady

The Flaming Lips #UterusPunkBands

I like AngryBlackLady quite a bit. Isn't she the one who found WUB's furries?

223 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:50:03pm

re: #177 engineer dog

considering that we were the most technologically advanced and wealthy nation on the face of the earth, with 4 times the population of vietnam, and that we expended ten years or so and a very large number of american lives, only to decide in the end that we weren't making any progress, and ultimately had to leave the battlefield in possession of our opponents, i'd say wtf are you talking about?

It is a bullshit myth to conflate "Vietnam" in general with the enemy in that war. We didn't leave the battlefield in the possession of our enemies. They didn't take possession until two years after the last Americans left, and only after the US Congress shut off military aid to the Republic of Vietnam. The people of Vietnam; again, contrary to much Kremlin and media bullshit; were not our opponents. Neither the Vietcong or their allies, the North Vietnamese army, were any kind of popular mlitia composed of courageous farmers defending their rice paddies. These are all facts of history, not in serious dispute by anyone who has looked at the situation in any detail. The Republic of Vietnam had some problems but it was at least as legitimate a government as the Stalinist north and was recognized as such in a raft of international treaties.

224 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:50:26pm

re: #219 albusteve

those questions are not what I'm addressing...I'm talking military success

We won the battle but lost the war.
Ergo, we lost.

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:50:32pm

re: #197 Dark_Falcon

We didn't leave them the battlefield. When we withdrew, it was intended that we would continue to support South Vietnam materially and from the air if needed. But that plan foundered when its architect, Richard Nixon, lost his bargaining power with Congress by covering up a shabby third-rate burglary. Had Watergate not happened, the denoument of the Vietnam War might have been very different.

I must say, with the clear vision that hindsight brings, that any plan that required Richard Nixon not to be a weasel did have some inherent design flaws.

226 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:50:57pm

re: #197 Dark_Falcon

We didn't leave them the battlefield. When we withdrew, it was intended that we would continue to support South Vietnam materially and from the air if needed. But that plan foundered when its architect, Richard Nixon, lost his bargaining power with Congress by covering up a shabby third-rate burglary. Had Watergate not happened, the denoument of the Vietnam War might have been very different.

this theory presupposes that it was actually possible to shore up the vietnamese "government" that we left with some influx of cash

you know, when i worked for the army, we talked about vietnam. what the army guys in the Army Research Institute told me was that the way the Vietnam was is taught in the Army these days is that we lost because we tried to shore up a government that didn't have the support of the people there

but not everybody gets to hear the accepted army version of its experience, i suppose

227 Political Atheist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:51:27pm

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

Hard to say... I suspect about the same really. Either would need very strong domestic measures & a powerful military while in power given the history of the nation. Highly speculative in any case.

228 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:51:28pm

re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist

I do not really see a way in which we can or should take away free speech from U.S. citizens on the grounds that it may cause people to cause COMMIT crimes.

229 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:51:41pm

re: #155 CuriousLurker

Sure, let's insult all Muslims and assume that the radicals are so stupid they won't smell a trap and save their revenge for later.. Yeah, uh-huh, that'll work. I wonder why we haven't tried it yet?

Damned you are touchy. You asked how to sieve them out. Obviously the only way to sieve people is to get them to sieve themselves, and that concept belongs in a cartoon too. I answered appropriately, and you need to grow thicker skin if you want to have an adult conversation.

230 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:52:06pm

re: #218 Varek Raith

We won Vietnam!
ALRIGHT!
Or something.

I didn't say that Varek. We didn't win, but they didn't kick our butts either. When we left we'd set up a system we thought would keep South Vietnam independent. That system failed, thanks in large part to Nixon's foolish actions. One alternate history short story I'd like to write is Vietnam with no Watergate.

231 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:52:16pm

re: #211 engineer dog

when you're trying to get out of a hole, stop digging

and you continue your highschool slant....it's laughable because you need to reduce the argument to political objectives...we won that fight, defeated the enemy and that cannot be disputed no matter how far you move the goalposts

232 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:52:29pm

re: #219 albusteve

those questions are not what I'm addressing...I'm talking military success

military success would be, at minimum, being in control of the country

you might notice that this was never the case at the best of times

233 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:53:11pm

re: #217 Naso Tang

Oh give me a break with the dings folks. I answered what could only have been a facetious question with a facetious answer.

My question most certainly was not a facetious one. There was talk of "isolating" people from the West and I wanted to know how one would propose doing that.

234 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:53:24pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

I didn't say that Varek. We didn't win, but they didn't kick our butts either. When we left we'd set up a system we thought would keep South Vietnam independent. That system failed, thanks in large part to Nixon's foolish actions. One alternate history short story I'd like to write is Vietnam with no Watergate.

I was responding to Steve.
All things being said, we lost in Vietnam. Our goal was not achieved.

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:53:31pm

re: #219 albusteve

those questions are not what I'm addressing...I'm talking military success

Will you acknowledge a complete failure to achieve political goals?

236 boxhead  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:53:55pm

re: #64 laZardo

All right, now I'm going to ask a question that's kinda boggled me. It's not a very good question to ask, and if it's too offensive then please delete it. I'm sorry if it causes too much trouble but I've been meaning to get it off my head for a while.

What's the difference between what Terry Jones did and what Kurt Westergaard did?

Burning books has always been looked upon as something enlightened people do not do.

Expressing ones self in art is looked upon with a bit more respect.

The results of the two seem to be about the same.

237 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:54:01pm

re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist

I do not really see a way in which we can or should take away free speech from U.S. citizens on the grounds that it may cause people to cause crimes.

Oh I agree, but even creating an international incident? One could say if we don't stand by our principles then they aren't much of principles, are they. OTOH, I don't like seeing people getting killed over it. Maybe those of us who despise Terry Jones need a louder voice.

238 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:54:20pm

re: #231 albusteve

and you continue your highschool slant...it's laughable because you need to reduce the argument to political objectives...we won that fight, defeated the enemy and that cannot be disputed no matter how far you move the goalposts

please note that, above, i relate what the soldiers told the u.s. army's position on it is

239 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:54:33pm

re: #223 Shiplord Kirel

It is a bullshit myth to conflate "Vietnam" in general with the enemy in that war. We didn't leave the battlefield in the possession of our enemies. They didn't take possession until two years after the last Americans left, and only after the US Congress shut off military aid to the Republic of Vietnam. The people of Vietnam; again, contrary to much Kremlin and media bullshit; were not our opponents. Neither the Vietcong or their allies, the North Vietnamese army, were any kind of popular mlitia composed of courageous farmers defending their rice paddies. These are all facts of history, not in serious dispute by anyone who has looked at the situation in any detail. The Republic of Vietnam had some problems but it was at least as legitimate a government as the Stalinist north and was recognized as such in a raft of international treaties.

Quoted for Truth.

It's important to remember that South Vietnam did not fall to a popular uprising. It fell to a crushing conventional assault from North Vietnam, as assault not lead by peasants but by Soviet supplied T-55s.

240 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:55:00pm

re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist

I must say, with the clear vision that hindsight brings, that any plan that required Richard Nixon not to be a weasel did have some inherent design flaws.

heh

241 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:55:48pm

We didn't install the fucking shah of Iran either. He was installed (at age 18) by the British and the Soviets when they invaded the country and deposed his father in 1941.
He was the last in a long line of shahs, though only the second of his so-called dynasty. To go back "before the shah" you have to go back to the middle ages and the time of the Mongol invasions.

242 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:56:01pm

re: #220 calochortus

OK, I can't stand it any longer. My husband was on the Midway when Saigon fell. Yes, fell. We lost. When anyone who can is flying out on anything they can get to fly, landing on an aircraft carrier where they are shoving the aircraft off the deck as fast as they can to let other aircraft land. That is a defeat. What don't you understand about that?

what don't you understand?...the fall of Saigon was an entirely different matter....you three sound like bots repeating the donk history....had we funded the RSVN beyond 73 things would be different, but to diss our military with regard to Viet Nam is deceitful

243 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:56:45pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

Quoted for Truth.

It's important to remember that South Vietnam did not fall to a popular uprising. It fell to a crushing conventional assault from North Vietnam, as assault not lead by peasants but by Soviet supplied T-55s.

you're ignoring that it was pellucidly clear to everybody there at the time that hardly anybody in south vietnam had supported the "government" there since the early 60s at least

244 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:56:53pm

I have to work but I came back to share my favorite web april fools jokes:

1) Hulu goes Web 1.0 [Link: www.hulu.com...] lol crawler, frames, gifs

2) Think Geek's Playmobil Apple Store [Link: www.pcworld.com...]

245 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:57:14pm

re: #224 Varek Raith

We won the battle but lost the war.
Ergo, we lost.

wrong...the feds gave Viet Nam to the North...plain and simple...there was no defeat about it

246 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:57:41pm

re: #244 WindUpBird

(note that Thinkgeek has a habit of taking their april fools jokes and using the reponse to determine whether to make them real products)

247 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:58:22pm

re: #242 albusteve

you three sound like bots repeating the donk history...

between your version and the way i heard it from the army, i'll take the army's version

248 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:58:44pm

re: #241 Shiplord Kirel

We didn't install the fucking shah of Iran either. He was installed (at age 18) by the British and the Soviets when they invaded the country and deposed his father in 1941.
He was the last in a long line of shahs, though only the second of his so-called dynasty. To go back "before the shah" you have to go back to the middle ages and the time of the Mongol invasions.

well, what I mean by that is we created the coup along with the British ;-) (not a foreign policy wonk)

249 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 8:59:58pm

re: #243 engineer dog

you're ignoring that it was pellucidly clear to everybody there at the time that hardly anybody in south vietnam had supported the "government" there since the early 60s at least

No, I'm not. I'm saying that despite the apathy of the South Vietnamese population, it took a massive conventional assault by North Vietnam to overthrow the South Vietnamese government.

250 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:00:14pm

re: #233 CuriousLurker

My question most certainly was not a facetious one. There was talk of "isolating" people from the West and I wanted to know how one would propose doing that.

If you had wanted to discuss it non facetiously you should have elaborated with an opinion, or at the very least quoted someone's opinion.

Non facetiously speaking the only way to do it is by nation. All other methods will simply have the opposite effect in the good old principle of "my enemy's enemy is my friend".

251 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:00:14pm

re: #247 engineer dog

between your version and the way i heard it from the army, i'll take the army's version

that's what idiots do...be my guest

252 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:00:14pm

re: #244 WindUpBird

I have to work but I came back to share my favorite web april fools jokes:

1) Hulu goes Web 1.0 [Link: www.hulu.com...] lol crawler, frames, gifs

2) Think Geek's Playmobil Apple Store [Link: www.pcworld.com...]

I like Hulu....very 1996.

253 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:00:29pm

re: #223 Shiplord Kirel

It is a bullshit myth to conflate "Vietnam" in general with the enemy in that war. We didn't leave the battlefield in the possession of our enemies. They didn't take possession until two years after the last Americans left, and only after the US Congress shut off military aid to the Republic of Vietnam. The people of Vietnam; again, contrary to much Kremlin and media bullshit; were not our opponents. Neither the Vietcong or their allies, the North Vietnamese army, were any kind of popular mlitia composed of courageous farmers defending their rice paddies. These are all facts of history, not in serious dispute by anyone who has looked at the situation in any detail. The Republic of Vietnam had some problems but it was at least as legitimate a government as the Stalinist north and was recognized as such in a raft of international treaties.

So basically, we lost nearly 60,000 troops, scarred thousands more for life, the only legal political party in Vietnam today is the Commies, and Saigon is now Ho Chi Minh City, but we should consider it a resounding military victory anyway?

Or is this merely an objection to the original poster's characterization of the enemy?

254 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:00:34pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

I didn't say that Varek. We didn't win, but they didn't kick our butts either. When we left we'd set up a system we thought would keep South Vietnam independent. That system failed, thanks in large part to Nixon's foolish actions. One alternate history short story I'd like to write is Vietnam with no Watergate.

Would have ultimately led to the same fate, as the Case-Church Amendment meant further military intervention was impossible, and a severe lack of competency on the part of the ARVN meant defeat was all but inevitable.

255 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:00:39pm

re: #222 prairiefire

I like AngryBlackLady quite a bit. Isn't she the one who found WUB's furries?

yup! She was at the same con I was at, yes. She just happened to hit that hotel, which is a way fancy-ass hotel in downtown San Jose called the Fairmont. I actually left her a blog comment from a room party at the con. I think it was on Bloon Juice and everyone was going "WHATS WITH THESE GUYS" and we posted and said "lol Balloon Juice furries here we drink heavily and wear silly costumes"

256 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:00:48pm

re: #229 Naso Tang

Damned you are touchy. You asked how to sieve them out. Obviously the only way to sieve people is to get them to sieve themselves, and that concept belongs in a cartoon too. I answered appropriately, and you need to grow thicker skin if you want to have an adult conversation.

LOL, yeah, okay. I'll gladly stick to talking to the other temperamental children here from now on.

257 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:01:00pm

re: #249 Dark_Falcon

No, I'm not. I'm saying that despite the apathy of the South Vietnamese population, it took a massive conventional assault by North Vietnam to overthrow the South Vietnamese government.

forget it....they don't care about the truth

258 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:01:08pm

re: #252 Girth

I like Hulu...very 1996.

X-files 32 color gifs! :D

259 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:02:04pm

re: #257 albusteve

forget it...they don't care about the truth

Was Vietnam a victory or a loss for the US?

260 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:02:32pm

re: #253 SanFranciscoZionist

So basically, we lost nearly 60,000 troops, scarred thousands more for life, the only legal political party in Vietnam today is the Commies, and Saigon is now Ho Chi Minh City, but we should consider it a resounding military victory anyway?

Or is this merely an objection to the original poster's characterization of the enemy?

call it what you will...you figure it out
and yes, it was a military victory....DUH!

261 calochortus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:02:46pm

re: #242 albusteve
I am not dissing the soldiers in our military, but the leadership had some issues. Remember the "body counts" that they could barely get through with a straight face? The people did not support governments in the South that we supported. We didn't care how corrupt they were as long as they were "anti communist".

By the way, I am not familiar with the term "donk". Perhaps you could define it for me? I'd hate to have an insult go to waste.


re: #245 albusteve

I don't recall that we owned it in the first place to give to anyone...

262 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:03:03pm

re: #256 CuriousLurker

LOL, yeah, okay. I'll gladly stick to talking to the other temperamental children here from now on.

Don't limit yourself to children by any means. Temperamental adults are more interesting and less predictable.

Goodnight.

263 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:03:14pm

re: #259 Varek Raith

Was Vietnam a victory or a loss for the US?

go upthread and figure it out

264 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:03:34pm

re: #258 WindUpBird

X-files 32 color gifs! :D

Netscape requirements! :3

265 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:03:35pm

re: #259 Varek Raith

Was Vietnam a victory or a loss for the US?

We won the war on the battlefield, but the politicians threw it all away! Don't you get it, we won!

//

266 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:03:39pm

re: #242 albusteve

what don't you understand?...the fall of Saigon was an entirely different matter...you three sound like bots repeating the donk history...had we funded the RSVN beyond 73 things would be different, but to diss our military with regard to Viet Nam is deceitful

It's funny how we hear this from people who never served and were never there. My first step dad was in Viet Nam, Marine Force Recon. He's got the Purple Heart and Oak Leaf Cluster to prove it. He volunteered because he had a shit draft number and knew he'd get called up anyway, figured he'd be safer fighting with the Marines who were all volunteer and knew what the fuck they were doing. The Viet Nam era US draft army wasn't all that good, drug use, corruption and morale was pure shit. Of course he's a donk now, so it's probably all some crap talking point to you. After all you know everything, you're not like the rest of the ignoramus chickenhawks because you've read a book.

267 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:04:19pm

re: #254 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Would have ultimately led to the same fate, as the Case-Church Amendment meant further military intervention was impossible, and a severe lack of competency on the part of the ARVN meant defeat was all but inevitable.

Case-Church might not have happened had Nixon acted more wisely. Given better support and more time, the ARVN might well have worked out its problems. They were doing much better in 1972 than they had done in 1963.

268 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:04:34pm

re: #263 albusteve

go upthread and figure it out

How about you just answer with a simple yes or no?

269 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:04:51pm

re: #248 WindUpBird

well, what I mean by that is we created the coup along with the British ;-) (not a foreign policy wonk)

We had no involvement at all. This was in the fall of 1941, well before the US entered the war and it was not a coup but an invasion. Churchill and Stalin could well have been justified in doing this, since the reigning shah (the last one's father) was suspected of Axis sympathies. Less altruistically, they though the Trans-Iranian railway would be a great way to get lend-lease supplies to Russia, as indeed it turned out to be. Young Reza, whose reign ended in 1979, was much more amenable to allied objectives.

270 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:05:05pm

re: #257 albusteve

forget it...they don't care about the truth

have you ever even set foot in vietnam?

271 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:05:20pm

re: #261 calochortus

I am not dissing the soldiers in our military, but the leadership had some issues. Remember the "body counts" that they could barely get through with a straight face? The people did not support governments in the South that we supported. We didn't care how corrupt they were as long as they were "anti communist".

By the way, I am not familiar with the term "donk". Perhaps you could define it for me? I'd hate to have an insult go to waste.

re: #245 albusteve

I don't recall that we owned it in the first place to give to anyone...

if you cannot figure out a donk is short for donkey, the mascot of the democrat party....whatever

272 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:06:05pm

re: #267 Dark_Falcon

Case-Church might not have happened had Nixon acted more wisely. Given better support and more time, the ARVN might well have worked out its problems. They were doing much better in 1972 than they had done in 1963.

I keep seeing the word "might" a lot. Do you have anything to back this speculation up, besides wishful thinking?

273 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:06:29pm

re: #251 albusteve

that's what idiots do...be my guest

noted, you think that thinking that the united states army would know more about what happened in vietnam than you do is "what idiots do"

274 calochortus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:07:03pm

re: #271 albusteve

if you cannot figure out a donk is short for donkey, the mascot of the democrat party...whatever

I thought it might be something more exotic than that. One never knows.

275 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:07:37pm

re: #266 goddamnedfrank

It's funny how we hear this from people who never served and were never there. My first step dad was in Viet Nam, Marine Force Recon. He's got the Purple Heart and Oak Leaf Cluster to prove it. He volunteered because he had a shit draft number and knew he'd get called up anyway, figured he'd be safer fighting with the Marines who were all volunteer and knew what the fuck they were doing. The Viet Nam era US draft army wasn't all that good, drug use, corruption and morale was pure shit. Of course he's a donk now, so it's probably all some crap talking point to you. After all you know everything, you're not like the rest of the ignoramus chickenhawks because you've read a book.

I don't give a shit about your family heros...point out our humiliating military defeat

276 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:07:46pm

re: #237 marjoriemoon

Oh I agree, but even creating an international incident? One could say if we don't stand by our principles then they aren't much of principles, are they. OTOH, I don't like seeing people getting killed over it. Maybe those of us who despise Terry Jones need a louder voice.

I will say that if Terry Jones did not exist, he would be invented. This is the principle of outrageous outrage, drawn large and deadly. A guy in Florida burns a Koran, or someone just tells you that a guy in Florida burned a Koran...this is just grist for political mills.

But we cannot compromise the First Amendment over this, any more than we could when people were insisting that it was treasonous to protest against the war, because it would encourage the enemy and endanger our troops. Terry Jones is within his legal rights. He is a callous, bigoted SOB, but he's within his legal rights. He didn't actually kill anyone. He didn't even call for them to be killed. He's just a schmuck who's figured out how to play with matches at home and have someone else's fingers get burned.

277 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:08:15pm

re: #261 calochortus

I am not dissing the soldiers in our military, but the leadership had some issues. Remember the "body counts" that they could barely get through with a straight face? The people did not support governments in the South that we supported. We didn't care how corrupt they were as long as they were "anti communist".

By the way, I am not familiar with the term "donk". Perhaps you could define it for me? I'd hate to have an insult go to waste.

re: #245 albusteve

I don't recall that we owned it in the first place to give to anyone...

"Donk" is a shortened version of "Donkey". It refers to Democrats, who use it as their symbol.*

*: Both the Democratic Donkey and Republican Elephant derive from a 19th century political cartoon by Thomas Nast.

278 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:08:20pm

re: #268 Varek Raith

How about you just answer with a simple yes or no?

no...go back there yourself for your answer

279 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:08:21pm

re: #269 Shiplord Kirel

I am referring to Operation Ajax, we seem to be talking about different things

280 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:08:55pm

Gawd, VietNam again. I can remember when "Deer Hunter" came out. A lancing of the festering wound.

281 lostlakehiker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:09:34pm

re: #64 laZardo

All right, now I'm going to ask a question that's kinda boggled me. It's not a very good question to ask, and if it's too offensive then please delete it. I'm sorry if it causes too much trouble but I've been meaning to get it off my head for a while.

What's the difference between what Terry Jones did and what Kurt Westergaard did?

Some. Westergaard didn't express hatred for Islam and the Koran. Just some impertinence with respect to M.

But it's silly to think that this is about Terry. This, or something like it, was in the works. Baked in the cake. It's intrinsic to extremist Islam.

As with the fable of the wolf and the sheep, there's always some way the lamb affronts the wolf.

282 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:09:52pm

re: #273 engineer dog

noted, you think that thinking that the united states army would know more about what happened in vietnam than you do is "what idiots do"

you are not trustworthy with anecdotal Army bullshit...the history is irrefutable, except to drones like you

283 calochortus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:09:59pm

re: #277 Dark_Falcon

As does our popular version of Santa Claus, but I hope they weren't all in the same cartoon. ;-)

284 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:10:26pm

re: #275 albusteve

I don't give a shit about your family heros...point out our humiliating military defeat

Mai Lai. We lost any semblance of legitimacy at Mai Lai.

285 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:10:35pm

re: #278 albusteve

no...go back there yourself for your answer

So we weren't defeated on the fields of battle. Meaningless, considering we left it to the North to roll on in. In the grand scheme of things, our goals were not met.
A victory it was not.

286 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:10:57pm

re: #253 SanFranciscoZionist

So basically, we lost nearly 60,000 troops, scarred thousands more for life, the only legal political party in Vietnam today is the Commies, and Saigon is now Ho Chi Minh City, but we should consider it a resounding military victory anyway?

Or is this merely an objection to the original poster's characterization of the enemy?

It's really a response to the popular mythology of the war. We have the Vietnam War Institute here at Texas Tech. Among other things, it is the official repository for all captured enemy documents from the war. I've heard graduate students and researchers there, people too young to have direct memories of the war, express their amazement at how different the truth is from the assumptions they had been encouraged to make about the war.

287 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:11:25pm

re: #284 goddamnedfrank

Mai Lai. We lost any semblance of legitimacy at Mai Lai.

legitimacy?....what's that? some diversion?

288 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:11:47pm

re: #242 albusteve

to diss our military with regard to Viet Nam is deceitful

No one is being disrespectful of the military. To be deployed in a military action that was ultimately a political disaster is no shame.

It's no great honor, either.

289 Bob Dillon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:11:49pm

Well, I was there. 66-70 as resident in Saigon and off and on in country till the end of 72. To my knowledge and on the ground experience we never lost a fight. All the rest is a pissing contest.

290 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:11:51pm

re: #275 albusteve

I don't give a shit about your family heros...point out our humiliating military defeat

Point out the humiliating defeat that lost Germany WWII.

291 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:12:32pm

re: #260 albusteve

call it what you will...you figure it out
and yes, it was a military victory...DUH!

ಠ_ಠ

292 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:12:50pm

re: #286 Shiplord Kirel

It's really a response to the popular mythology of the war. We have the Vietnam War Institute here at Texas Tech. Among other things, it is the official repository for all captured enemy documents from the war. I've heard graduate students and researchers there, people too young to have direct memories of the war, express their amazement at how different the truth is from the assumptions they had been encouraged to make about the war.

no fucking shit....just follow the thread

293 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:13:22pm

Well fuck, I've stirred up a hornet's nest. I suppose this is a good time to go to lunch. Cheers.

294 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:14:15pm

The real problem with Vietnam is not did we win the war, but rather that 40 years later people still argue about whether we did.

295 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:14:55pm

re: #272 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I keep seeing the word "might" a lot. Do you have anything to back this speculation up, besides wishful thinking?

The ARVN's record in the 1972 Easter invasion would back it up. The NVA assault was comprehensively defeated. The ARVN had massive US air support but most US troops had left by the that time. As we had seen earlier in the war, massive air support was not the crushing advantage it was alleged to be. The ARVN won on the ground.

296 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:15:26pm

re: #280 prairiefire

Gawd, VietNam again. I can remember when "Deer Hunter" came out. A lancing of the festering wound.

Maybe we should throw Israel into the mix.

297 calochortus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:15:57pm

re: #296 marjoriemoon

I'm sure that would help.//

298 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:15:59pm

re: #294 Girth

The real problem with Vietnam is not did we win the war, but rather that 40 years later people still argue about whether we did.

6th grade, Miss Booth's class. I cried tears of relief for my younger brothers when she announced Nixon had declared US efforts were ending.

299 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:16:10pm

re: #282 albusteve

you are not trustworthy with anecdotal Army bullshit...the history is irrefutable, except to drones like you

i suppose there are a lot of germans sitting around arguing that germany didn't really lose wwii militarily... why, just think of all those crushing military defeats they inflicted... it was really just internal traitors that sold them out...

your arguments match exactly those of the germans who refused to accept that they were defeated in wwi

300 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:16:25pm

re: #260 albusteve

call it what you will...you figure it out
and yes, it was a military victory...DUH!

You figure it out. What exactly the fuck did we win? Don't tell me whose fault it was, or that I've been brainwashed by the donks and the media, or how it could have worked if the government that deployed our troops had been better or smarter--tell me what we gained in exchange for those dead, and those resources we expended.

What I'm hearing you do right now is very narrowly define the Vietnam war as a series of military actions entirely devoid of a political goal, and saying that the actual outcome--a Communist Vietnam--is not relevant to whether we won or lost the war.

Winning something, to me, has usually seemed to consist of reaching objectives.

301 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:17:24pm

re: #282 albusteve

you are not trustworthy with anecdotal Army bullshit...the history is irrefutable, except to drones like you

and what is your source of information?

302 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:18:01pm

re: #299 engineer dog

i suppose there are a lot of germans sitting around arguing that germany didn't really lose wwii militarily... why, just think of all those crushing military defeats they inflicted... it was really just internal traitors that sold them out...

your arguments match exactly those of the germans who refused to accept that they were defeated in wwi

you blab, but you refuse to back it up....post where US forces were defeated and how we lost the war....POST IT

303 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:19:02pm

I hate these fucking "escort the dumbass Senator who dies if he brushes up against a twig and also don't be detected" missions in Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood.

304 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:19:31pm

re: #295 Shiplord Kirel

The ARVN's record in the 1972 Easter invasion would back it up. The NVA assault was comprehensively defeated. The ARVN had massive US air support but most US troops had left by the that time. As we had seen earlier in the war, massive air support was not the crushing advantage it was alleged to be. The ARVN won on the ground.

And yet, North Vietnam made strategic gains that not only put them on equal footing in the Paris Peace Accords, but also served as staging grounds for future offensives. Likewise, while the ARVN had shown competency in the Offensive, it quickly went back to business as usual once the threat had passed. The weaknesses that led to South Vietnam's downfall were evident in the aftermath of such a "victory."

305 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:19:32pm

re: #301 engineer dog

and what is your source of information?

I suggest YOU begin with 'Fire In The Lake' by FitzGerald

306 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:19:42pm

re: #299 engineer dog

i suppose there are a lot of germans sitting around arguing that germany didn't really lose wwii militarily... why, just think of all those crushing military defeats they inflicted... it was really just internal traitors that sold them out...

your arguments match exactly those of the germans who refused to accept that they were defeated in wwi

Well, the Wehrmacht did not leave the field two full years before the allies moved in.

307 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:20:20pm

re: #255 WindUpBird

yup! She was at the same con I was at, yes. She just happened to hit that hotel, which is a way fancy-ass hotel in downtown San Jose called the Fairmont. I actually left her a blog comment from a room party at the con. I think it was on Bloon Juice and everyone was going "WHATS WITH THESE GUYS" and we posted and said "lol Balloon Juice furries here we drink heavily and wear silly costumes"

OMG I LOVE THIS NEW KNOWLEDGE. link it!

308 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:20:29pm

re: #305 albusteve

I suggest YOU begin with 'Fire In The Lake' by FitzGerald

oh, you read a book! well, that settles it
///

309 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:20:40pm

re: #280 prairiefire

Gawd, VietNam again. I can remember when "Deer Hunter" came out. A lancing of the festering wound.

I came to a realization about Vietnam, about four years into Iraq. After two of my college friends had lost brothers there.

I wasn't afraid of it any more. All through my childhood and teens and twenties, Vietnam was this special haunted horror of the older generation. I could never understand. I didn't know what it had been like back then.

The draft, of course, is the key thing that's totally different, but I had this sudden realization that my generation was going to have lost men and be scarred up by our own war, and that I wasn't feeling deferential toward Vietnam any more.

I know that sounds totally nuts. I'm not even sure what the hell I mean by it.

But something shifted in my head.

310 Bob Dillon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:20:48pm

re: #280 prairiefire

Gawd, VietNam again. I can remember when "Deer Hunter" came out. A lancing of the festering wound.

It sure lanced mine. I sat on the curb in front of the theater afterwards and bawled like a baby - first indication that I might have PTSD.

311 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:20:56pm

re: #303 negativ

I hate these fucking "escort the dumbass Senator who dies if he brushes up against a twig and also don't be detected" missions in Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood.

I hate escort missions, period. When the unit/person you're escorting doesn't have the constitution of a cotton swab, their AI is absolutely stupid.

312 lostlakehiker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:20:59pm

re: #233 CuriousLurker

My question most certainly was not a facetious one. There was talk of "isolating" people from the West and I wanted to know how one would propose doing that.

That's impossible. As a society, we are not configured to quarantine a religion. Or a region.

313 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:22:30pm

re: #300 SanFranciscoZionist

You figure it out. What exactly the fuck did we win? Don't tell me whose fault it was, or that I've been brainwashed by the donks and the media, or how it could have worked if the government that deployed our troops had been better or smarter--tell me what we gained in exchange for those dead, and those resources we expended.

What I'm hearing you do right now is very narrowly define the Vietnam war as a series of military actions entirely devoid of a political goal, and saying that the actual outcome--a Communist Vietnam--is not relevant to whether we won or lost the war.

Winning something, to me, has usually seemed to consist of reaching objectives.

have it anyway you want...militarily, in the field, US forces were victorious by a wide margine...you want me to commit to more than that and I have no desire to

314 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:23:18pm

re: #304 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And yet, North Vietnam made strategic gains that not only put them on equal footing in the Paris Peace Accords, but also served as staging grounds for future offensives. Likewise, while the ARVN had shown competency in the Offensive, it quickly went back to business as usual once the threat had passed. The weaknesses that led to South Vietnam's downfall were evident in the aftermath of such a "victory."

all true....AFTER we left the field

315 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:23:51pm

re: #295 Shiplord Kirel

The ARVN's record in the 1972 Easter invasion would back it up. The NVA assault was comprehensively defeated. The ARVN had massive US air support but most US troops had left by the that time. As we had seen earlier in the war, massive air support was not the crushing advantage it was alleged to be. The ARVN won on the ground.

True. but part of that was that the Easter Offensive was the kind of conventional offensive the US knew how to fight and could effectively train an army to resist. The NVA had shown good use of infantry tactics, but their armor tactics were standard Soviet tactics that proved greatly inferior to American tactics.

316 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:23:52pm

I take off for a few hours and come back to this?

317 Westward Ho  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:24:41pm

The egyptian revolution could be hijacked.... it would be a catastrophe if it happened.

Post revolutionary jitters

318 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:24:46pm

re: #308 engineer dog

oh, you read a book! well, that settles it
///

good, I hope you're smarter for it
I was there bro for every inch of that dustup

319 lostlakehiker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:24:46pm

re: #289 Bobibutu

Well, I was there. 66-70 as resident in Saigon and off and on in country till the end of 72. To my knowledge and on the ground experience we never lost a fight. All the rest is a pissing contest.

The Germans outshot the Russians at Kursk. So what? The Russians had the numbers.

Recruiting is part of war, and numbers are part of war. Losing the chance to recruit committed soldiers is a form of quantitative defeat.

320 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:25:16pm

re: #305 albusteve

I suggest YOU begin with 'Fire In The Lake' by FitzGerald

Twenty-eight years after publication, and 25 after the war's end, Fire in the Lake remains one of the very best books on the Viet Nam war. Sadly, Americans are woefully ignorant of the rest of the world. We have little real knowledge of our own history; but for the rest of the world's history and culture, we have neither knowledge nor regarad. We do not even do the Vietnamese people the courtesy of respecting the name of their country--Viet Nam, not Vietnam; Sai Gon, not Saigon. FitzGerald helps to correct some of this ignorance and arrogance. She begins examining the U.S. in Viet Nam from the perspective of Vietnamese history and culture; and in the process, demonstrating the tenacity and courage of the Vietnamese people, as well as their determination to rid themselves of any foreign invaders, even if, as with the Chinese, it takes 1,000 years. Another great strength of FitzGerald's book is, with her attention to Viet Nam's history and culture and their 20th century struggle against the French, she demonstrates, in an almost matter of fact way, a fundamental tenent of U.S. foreign policy which has been repeated numerous times in the post World War II era. That central tenent is to support thugs over patriots, to elevate to power those who will sell out their people for 30 pieces of silver rather than work with those committed to the well being of their people. Ho Chi Minh was our ally during WWII; his hero was Thomas Jefferson, not Karl Marx or Stalin. He was very pro-American; yet he was a nationalist and a patriot first, which meant, from the perspective of the U.S., he was not only unreliable, but someone who had to be destroyed. And though FitzGerald does not carry her analysis beyond Viet Nam, an informed or a curious reader quickly can draw the parallels between U.S. policy in Viet Nam and U.S. policy in Africa, the Middle East, the Pacific rim (Indonesia specifically), South America, the Caribbean, and most obviously of all, Central America. Thus FitzGerald gives us not only the means of understanding the war in Viet Nam, and why we were doomed to lose, but also a point of departure for understanding the travesty of U.S. foreign policy for the last 100 years. Simply stated, the United States is an (economic) empire which cares nothing about democracy, self determination in other countries, which sees other people's patriotism and love of country as a threat to U.S. imperial interests. We can learn a lot from what FitzGerald has to say, about the Vietnames, and especially about ourselves.

321 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:25:22pm

re: #311 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I hate escort missions, period. When the unit/person you're escorting doesn't have the constitution of a cotton swab, their AI is absolutely stupid.

My favorite game of all time was the Wing Commander series. HATED when you got to the briefing and it was an escort. It usually meant some slow-ass freighter with no defenses that got blown to shit if you A) didn't kill your first target within 5 seconds or B) got more than .5 km away from it.

And of course those conditions got tested at least 3 times over the course of the mission.

322 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:25:33pm

re: #313 albusteve

have it anyway you want...militarily, in the field, US forces were victorious by a wide margine...you want me to commit to more than that and I have no desire to

It is beyond me how 'militarily in the field' can be considered to matter, given the actual outcome of the conflict.

All those dead, whose lives were sacrificed to a goal that was never reached--that's not victory.

323 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:25:40pm

re: #309 SanFranciscoZionist

{{SFZ}} You are living your reality. I'm sorry for your friends' loss. As a child, the looming threat of the draft was very scary. My brothers were only 9 and 7, but I was going to get out there and protest march if someone would just drive me to the event.

324 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:25:51pm

re: #314 albusteve

all true...AFTER we left the field

Precisely. It's a bit like saying that we've won the Second Iraq War, even though we're still there, pulling occupation duty years after the fighting supposedly came to an end. Why? Because if we'd pulled out after combat operations had been declared "over," Iraq would have fallen over like a house of cards and we'd either be looking at a new Ayatollah or a new Taliban.

Vietnam was "won" so long as we stayed there as an occupational entity, propping up the ARVN with our own soldiers and the government with our material and political support. Once both disappeared, the North Vietnamese rolled over them like a steamroller.

325 Bob Dillon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:26:01pm

re: #316 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I take off for a few hours and come back to this?

I absolutely relate. ;-)

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:26:08pm

re: #314 albusteve

all true...AFTER we left the field

FUCK the field.

Sorry. I realize we're talking at cross purposes here, but seriously...

327 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:26:09pm

re: #312 lostlakehiker

That's impossible. As a society, we are not configured to quarantine a religion. Or a region.

That's precisely why I asked the question. I couldn't think of any realistic way to accomplish what was being proposed.

328 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:26:48pm

re: #317 Westward Ho

The egyptian revolution could be hijacked... it would be a catastrophe if it happened.

Post revolutionary jitters

This news surprised someone?

The Middle East is giving me hives this month.

329 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:26:58pm

re: #321 Girth

My favorite game of all time was the Wing Commander series. HATED when you got to the briefing and it was an escort. It usually meant some slow-ass freighter with no defenses that got blown to shit if you A) didn't kill your first target within 5 seconds or B) got more than .5 km away from it.

And of course those conditions got tested at least 3 times over the course of the mission.

Yep, hence why I save spam during escort missions, especially before the half-way point.

330 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:27:25pm

re: #305 albusteve

I suggest YOU begin with 'Fire In The Lake' by FitzGerald

are you sure that you read it?

In my opinion, this work is a must read for anyone interested in studying American and Western involvement in Vietnam. This book studies the influence and power Ho Chi Minh and suggests that the US ignored the will of the Vietnamese people, who looked to Ho as 18th century Americans looked to George Washington - as the acknowledged leader of their country.

By supporting dummy regimes that encouraged Western Market Capitalism, but did not have the support of the Vietnamese population, America failed to learn from the mistakes of the French and ended up backing the losing side in the Vietnamese civil war.
...
This landmark work, based on Frances FitzGerald's own research and travels, takes us inside Vietnam-into the traditional, ancestor-worshiping villages and the corrupt crowded cities, into the conflicts between Communists and anti-Communists, Catholics and Buddhists, generals and monks -and reveals the country as seen through Vietnamese eyes. With a clarity and authority unrivaled by any book before it or since, Fire in the Lake shows how America utterly and tragically misinterpreted the realities of Vietnam.
...
this book portrays the tragic collision of two cultures unable to understand one another. Arguing that American values of freedom, democracy and optimism were inconsistent with Vietnam's values, culture, and above all, its bloody history and essentially agrarian existence, the effort was doomed from the start. THe Vietnamese's sense of government, history,politics and even conflict is completely different from our own, as is their cultural tradition of ancestor worship and their belief in what constitutes effective government (i.e. the mandate of heaven) and we never took these differences into account. Whether this is the fault of the military or the U.S government is really irrelevant, either way it was a crucial factor in the tragedy. Fitzgerald's book is of course an incomplete picture of the reasons we failed there, but is one of the most important and overlooked. While other books focus on the flawed military strategy of endless bombing, destruction and body counts, or the corruption of both Vietnamese regimes, or the arogance of the US military establishment, this book hones in on the cultural issue

331 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:27:34pm

re: #322 SanFranciscoZionist

It is beyond me how 'militarily in the field' can be considered to matter, given the actual outcome of the conflict.

All those dead, whose lives were sacrificed to a goal that was never reached--that's not victory.

gets complicated eh?....the fact remains we completely ruined the VC and rendered the NVA to bits and pieces

332 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:28:31pm

re: #331 albusteve

gets complicated eh?...the fact remains we completely ruined the VC and rendered the NVA to bits and pieces

True.
The reason it's an overall loss is that our political goals, the whole fucking reason we were there, were not met.

333 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:28:53pm

re: #306 Shiplord Kirel

Well, the Wehrmacht did not leave the field two full years before the allies moved in.

the wehrmacht was the army of germany. the arvn was the army of south vietnam

334 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:29:09pm

re: #323 prairiefire

{{SFZ}} You are living your reality. I'm sorry for your friends' loss. As a child, the looming threat of the draft was very scary. My brothers were only 9 and 7, but I was going to get out there and protest march if someone would just drive me to the event.

I get that, completely. It's just that I grew up in the shadow of the grown folks' memories of Vietnam--and Iraq changed how I saw it, somehow. Probably for the better, I think I got some more perspective on the history, as opposed to the weight of remembered fear.

I'm still not describing this sensibly. It makes sense inside my head. Really!

335 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:29:40pm

re: #316 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I take off for a few hours and come back to this?

It happens every now and again, you know.

/some men just want to watch the world burn
//why so serious?

336 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:29:59pm

re: #331 albusteve

gets complicated eh?...the fact remains we completely ruined the VC and rendered the NVA to bits and pieces

that explains why they ended up taking control of the country

337 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:30:53pm

re: #305 albusteve

I suggest YOU begin with 'Fire In The Lake' by FitzGerald

i suggest that you re-read this book, since by all accounts it does not support your point of view

338 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:31:10pm

Military victories aren't made by kill ratios or amount of territory controlled. They're made by destroying the enemies will to fight, either by turning them to your side or demoralizing them.

We've done neither apparently.

339 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:31:17pm

re: #336 engineer dog

that explains why they ended up taking control of the country

Partly. We left. The VietCong had no serious opposition after that.

340 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:31:33pm

re: #336 engineer dog

that explains why they ended up taking control of the country

we allowed them to...are you really that dense?

341 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:31:36pm

Good night, lizards. Have a peaceful and productive weekend.

342 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:31:38pm

re: #331 albusteve

gets complicated eh?...the fact remains we completely ruined the VC and rendered the NVA to bits and pieces

I'm actually giggling like a crazy person right now. Nervous energy.

If you reject the idea that we lost the war, can we at least agree that the South Vietnamese government did not win the war?

343 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:32:23pm

re: #336 engineer dog

that explains why they ended up taking control of the country

The NVA was like the liquid metal Terminator. Rendering them into bits and pieces only slows them down for a while.

344 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:32:28pm

re: #340 albusteve

we allowed them to...are you really that dense?

We "allowed" them do so? Why, because we got tired of being unpaid mercenaries for the South Vietnamese government, packed our shit up, and left?

345 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:32:29pm

re: #296 marjoriemoon

Maybe we should throw Israel into the mix.

How about we also toss in some John Kerry?

346 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:32:31pm

re: #330 engineer dog

I love the passionate of LGF.
Kusds to you all, passionate believers.
A *smoomch* for everyone.

347 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:33:03pm

re: #333 engineer dog

the wehrmacht was the army of germany. the arvn was the army of south vietnam

The Varangian Guard were an elite unit within the Byzantine army.

348 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:33:12pm

re: #346 Floral Giraffe

I love the passionate of LGF.
Kusds to you all, passionate believers.
A *smoomch* for everyone.

Them's fightin' words!
:)

349 Bob Dillon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:33:57pm

re: #319 lostlakehiker

The Germans outshot the Russians at Kursk. So what? The Russians had the numbers.

Recruiting is part of war, and numbers are part of war. Losing the chance to recruit committed soldiers is a form of quantitative defeat.

No argument. It was a mess from the top down. I and many others have no lost love for LBJ or congress. In spite of that the majority who served in Nam and the general area (that I personally had contact with) were honorable and professional whether career or drafted.

350 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:34:00pm

re: #337 engineer dog

i suggest that you re-read this book, since by all accounts it does not support your point of view

I'm trying to help you out to get smart...the book is a fine overview of our entanglement in SE Asia....take it or leave it, but you mocking gets zero traction with me

351 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:34:35pm

Militarily, one can certainly argue that we did not lose the Vietnamese War.

Politically, I don't see how one can make that argument.

352 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:34:54pm

Say what you want about Vietnam but we weren't in there to fight for the Vietnamese people. Dominos anyone?

353 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:35:22pm

re: #352 Gus 802

Say what you want about Vietnam but we weren't in there to fight for the Vietnamese people. Dominos anyone?

Pepperoni please.

354 calochortus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:35:56pm

It never ceases to amaze me how 2 people can read (or hear) exactly the same thing and draw diametrically opposed conclusions. The human mind is a fascinating thing.

355 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:36:23pm

re: #341 prairiefire

Good night, lizards. Have a peaceful and productive weekend.

Same to you. And on that note I'm going to go fill out my time sheet and read a book or watch a movie. Try not to solve the world's problem's without me.

G'nite, everyone.

356 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:36:26pm

re: #342 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm actually giggling like a crazy person right now. Nervous energy.

If you reject the idea that we lost the war, can we at least agree that the South Vietnamese government did not win the war?

I never addressed the 'war'....I say we defeated the VC and the NVA, bigtime, and our fighting men and women deserve the credit for it

357 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:37:06pm

re: #352 Gus 802

Say what you want about Vietnam but we weren't in there to fight for the Vietnamese people. Dominos anyone?

Ayep, our only concern in Vietnam was in the ideological fight between capitalism and communism. We couldn't have cared less who was running South Vietnam or how much of a bloodthirsty bastard he was, so long as he was taking his money in dollars instead of rubles.

358 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:37:37pm

re: #340 albusteve

we allowed them to...are you really that dense?

you might care to notice that we fought in vietnam FOR LONGER THAN WE FOUGHT IN ANY OTHER WAR, WITH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN DEATHS, AND YET IN THE END WE DID NOT ATTAIN OUR OBJECTIVES

or did those little details escape the fine toothed comb of your scrutiny?

359 Bob Dillon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:37:49pm

re: #345 Gus 802

How about we also toss in some John Kerry?

Don't even go there. /

360 lostlakehiker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:37:52pm

re: #331 albusteve

gets complicated eh?...the fact remains we completely ruined the VC and rendered the NVA to bits and pieces

But that's irrelevant. That's just weasels killing for the joy of killing. If you cannot achieve your political objective, or if it's made of brass and worth nothing even if achieved, any killing along the way is a tragedy or a crime.

GOING into the war with the aim of resisting Communism is OK. Fighting on, when that's not gonna happen, is really problematic.

361 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:37:56pm

re: #356 albusteve

I never addressed the 'war'...I say we defeated the VC and the NVA, bigtime, and our fighting men and women deserve the credit for it

Oy.
We've been talking about two very different things, and I completely read you wrong.
Sorry man.

362 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:38:42pm

re: #350 albusteve

I'm trying to help you out to get smart...the book is a fine overview of our entanglement in SE Asia...take it or leave it, but you mocking gets zero traction with me

perhaps i have read a few books on vietnam myself - eh?

besides which, as far as i can tell, the particular book you cite does not seem to support your contention

363 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:38:57pm

re: #344 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

We "allowed" them do so? Why, because we got tired of being unpaid mercenaries for the South Vietnamese government, packed our shit up, and left?

not sure...it revolved around Nixon and his feud with congress at the time....after we ruined the NVA, funding for air support was cut off and in 75 the renewed NVA took over....that had nothing to do with our victories

364 lostlakehiker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:39:16pm

re: #349 Bobibutu

No argument. It was a mess from the top down. I and many others have no lost love for LBJ or congress. In spite of that the majority who served in Nam and the general area (that I personally had contact with) were honorable and professional whether career or drafted.

Second that.

365 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:39:17pm

I need to put a movie on, but I don't want to watch anything that I actually have to pay attention to. That means I need to watch something I've already seen >9000 times.

Right now, I'm looking at:
Jason and the Argonauts
The Fly (Cronenberg version)
Glengary GlenRoss
Blade Runner
Willard
Goodfellas
The Man with Two Brains

What say ye, o wise and worthy internets?

366 calochortus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:39:17pm

Seems like an excellent time to start winding down before bedtime.
'Night all.

367 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:40:03pm

re: #365 negativ

I need to put a movie on, but I don't want to watch anything that I actually have to pay attention to. That means I need to watch something I've already seen >9000 times.

Right now, I'm looking at:
Jason and the Argonauts
The Fly (Cronenberg version)
Glengary GlenRoss
Blade Runner
Willard
Goodfellas
The Man with Two Brains

What say ye, o wise and worthy internets?

I'd go for the gangsta flick.

368 lostlakehiker  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:40:05pm

There's a book about John Paul Vann and Vietnam that sheds a lot of light.

369 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:40:31pm

re: #357 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Ayep, our only concern in Vietnam was in the ideological fight between capitalism and communism. We couldn't have cared less who was running South Vietnam or how much of a bloodthirsty bastard he was, so long as he was taking his money in dollars instead of rubles.

Exactly. In a wider sense it was also to curb the perceived threat of Communist expansionism -- hence the dominos. One thing that happens here is that we go to a country like Vietnam but we are still strangers even to those fighting against the North and living in the South. The so called enemy of those in the south were relatives, friends and fellow countrymen. We were foreign invaders in a sense.

370 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:40:32pm

One of world's largest concrete pumps headed from U.S. to Japan

Atlanta (CNN) -- One of the world's largest concrete pumps is being readied to get on a massive cargo plane and head to Japan, all part of the effort to address the crisis at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The 190,000-pound truck pump was moved off a job on the Savannah River on Wednesday and, two days later, was in Hanahan, South Carolina. Once preparations are complete, it will head about 7,000 miles toward Asia aboard a Russian Antonov 225 cargo plane, which is considered among the world's biggest aircrafts.

The U.S. Department of Energy had been using the big pumper at a mixed oxide fuel plant construction site in southeastern Georgia. Eventually, nuclear waste is to be disposed of here.

But the decision was made to transfer it to Japan -- along with several other such large pumps, from around the world -- in order to deal with a disaster that has been brewing since a March 11 earthquake and tsunami wreaked havoc at the plant and stoked fears about massive releases of radiation.

371 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:40:33pm

re: #365 negativ

I need to put a movie on, but I don't want to watch anything that I actually have to pay attention to. That means I need to watch something I've already seen >9000 times.

Right now, I'm looking at:
Jason and the Argonauts
The Fly (Cronenberg version)
Glengary GlenRoss
Blade Runner
Willard
Goodfellas
The Man with Two Brains

What say ye, o wise and worthy internets?

The Man with two Brains.

372 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:41:03pm

re: #371 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Man with two Brains.

Pffft. what does he know!

373 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:41:07pm

re: #358 engineer dog

you might care to notice that we fought in vietnam FOR LONGER THAN WE FOUGHT IN ANY OTHER WAR, WITH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN DEATHS, AND YET IN THE END WE DID NOT ATTAIN OUR OBJECTIVES

or did those little details escape the fine toothed comb of your scrutiny?

so what?....how is that germain?

374 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:41:22pm

ok, time for me to stop spamming up the thread, and go see a moving picture show

take care, all!

375 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:41:23pm

re: #365 negativ

I need to put a movie on, but I don't want to watch anything that I actually have to pay attention to. That means I need to watch something I've already seen >9000 times.

Right now, I'm looking at:
Jason and the Argonauts
The Fly (Cronenberg version)
Glengary GlenRoss
Blade Runner
Willard
Goodfellas
The Man with Two Brains

What say ye, o wise and worthy internets?

"He say you brade runna!"

376 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:41:38pm

re: #336 engineer dog

that explains why they ended up taking control of the country

Actually, that is explained by the massive Chinese and Soviet support they received. Without that, there would have been no North Vietnam to begin with.

377 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:41:45pm

re: #360 lostlakehiker

But that's irrelevant. That's just weasels killing for the joy of killing. If you cannot achieve your political objective, or if it's made of brass and worth nothing even if achieved, any killing along the way is a tragedy or a crime.

GOING into the war with the aim of resisting Communism is OK. Fighting on, when that's not gonna happen, is really problematic.

War is a continuation of politics by other means.

If the conflict fails to support your politics than the war is a failure. That is no reflection on the ability or honor of your fighting forces.

378 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:42:24pm

re: #365 negativ

I need to put a movie on, but I don't want to watch anything that I actually have to pay attention to. That means I need to watch something I've already seen >9000 times.

Right now, I'm looking at:
Jason and the Argonauts
The Fly (Cronenberg version)
Glengary GlenRoss
Blade Runner
Willard
Goodfellas
The Man with Two Brains

What say ye, o wise and worthy internets?

Blade Runner

379 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:42:29pm

re: #356 albusteve

I never addressed the 'war'...I say we defeated the VC and the NVA, bigtime, and our fighting men and women deserve the credit for it

But not the rampant opium abuse or officer fragging. We're a bunch of big winners here and don't want to remember the bad bits.

380 Westward Ho  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:42:32pm

re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist

It did surprise me a bit because I watched the entire thing 24/7 and all you could see were the cool folks speaking fluent english. There was no blood curdling Islamic rhetoric or slogans. It was led by guys who you would have a beer with.... no salafist / wahabi monsters. I suppose this can be attributed to the selection bias of the western media where they mostly talk to the westernized crowd. Any how the best that can be hoped for is that the islamists turn into a conservative party working within a democratic framework.

381 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:42:38pm

re: #361 Varek Raith

Oy.
We've been talking about two very different things, and I completely read you wrong.
Sorry man.

right, it's cool

382 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:43:09pm

re: #368 lostlakehiker

There's a book about John Paul Vann and Vietnam that sheds a lot of light.

"A Bright, Shining Lie" is the name of the book.

383 Bob Dillon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:44:07pm

Report: Afghanistan War Costs Average $6.7 Billion Per Month
DefenseAlert, April 1, 2011 -- U.S. operations in Afghanistan cost $6.7 billion a month in fiscal year 2010 -- an average of $223 million per day, according to a new congressional war-spending analysis.
DOCUMENT: CRS War-Cost Report

384 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:44:15pm

re: #363 albusteve

not sure...it revolved around Nixon and his feud with congress at the time...after we ruined the NVA, funding for air support was cut off and in 75 the renewed NVA took over...that had nothing to do with our victories

We lost Vietnam because, in the end, there simply was no support to see it go further. We routinely pounded the NVA to a pulp, but there was no visible gain to be made. By the time we finally pulled up sticks and left, it'd become essentially a stalemate, with no side making serious gains that would have seen an end to the fighting. It's hard to argue for a continuation of a fight where the only thing people can see is money going in and pine coffins coming out.

385 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:44:16pm

I also think there's a misconception that if you think the Vietnam War was a mistake that you either hate the military, soldiers or veterans. Not true of course. There are many who have served that also think it was a mistake.

386 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:44:25pm

Let's now argue about the Battle of Thermopylae.
GO!
/

387 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:44:46pm

Honor is doing the right thing. It's sometimes hard to do the right thing.
It's sometimes hard to decide what the right thing is. It is better to do the right thing, if you are US Marine. They know & do, the right thing. They operate with Honor.

388 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:45:02pm

re: #386 Varek Raith

Let's now argue about the Battle of Thermopylae.
GO!
/

I can only make shit up on the fly while reading Wiki.

//

389 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:45:49pm

re: #352 Gus 802

Say what you want about Vietnam but we weren't in there to fight for the Vietnamese people. Dominos anyone?

Once upon a time, I ordered from Domino's. To make a long story short, the pizza finally arrived 3 hours later, after I had already called and cancelled, and successfully ordered from some other place.

Apparently, cancelling an order under those circumstances triggers some sort of customer service response squad at Domino's corporate, because I got a call from someone who wanted me to tell them all about my horrifically traumatic pizza experience, and offer me some coupons for free stuff. The funny part is that it took them THREE MONTHS to call. I thought it was funny in a pathetic sort of way, and said as much to the poor person on the phone.

Years later, having failed to learn that lesson, I ordered from Domino's again. Different city even. They gave me someone else's pizza. It was one of those BLASPHEMY PIZZAS with pineapple pieces on it.

The moral of the story is, never order pizza from Domino's. I strongly suspect that incompetence is corporate policy which is strictly enforced.

390 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:45:54pm

re: #388 Gus 802

I can only make shit up on the fly while reading Wiki.

//

THIS IS MADNESS!
NO, THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!!

391 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:46:17pm

re: #384 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

We lost Vietnam because, in the end, there simply was no support to see it go further. We routinely pounded the NVA to a pulp, but there was no visible gain to be made. By the time we finally pulled up sticks and left, it'd become essentially a stalemate, with no side making serious gains that would have seen an end to the fighting. It's hard to argue for a continuation of a fight where the only thing people can see is money going in and pine coffins coming out.

we pounded the NVA to get them to the table in Paris...I understand all the peripheral stuff

392 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:46:18pm

re: #379 goddamnedfrank

But not the rampant opium abuse or officer fragging. We're a bunch of big winners here and don't want to remember the bad bits.

Very true, but there were/are some good folks.

393 Bob Dillon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:46:22pm

re: #385 Gus 802

I also think there's a misconception that if you think the Vietnam War was a mistake that you either hate the military, soldiers or veterans. Not true of course. There are many who have served that also think it was a mistake.

How it was prosecuted was the mistake.

394 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:46:29pm

re: #386 Varek Raith

Let's now argue about the Battle of Thermopylae.
GO!
/

We need more Themistocles and fewer Leonidas.

395 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:46:30pm

re: #356 albusteve

I never addressed the 'war'...I say we defeated the VC and the NVA, bigtime, and our fighting men and women deserve the credit for it

OK. I'm addressing the war.

We, as a county, lost that one.

I hear what you're saying, but it seems beside the point to me. So, we spent 58,000 lives of a fantastic and successful fighting force, and still failed to achieve our objectives in the region.

You're hearing the idea that we lost, somehow, as a slur on the troops. I see it as a slur on those who sent them to die.

396 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:47:04pm

re: #394 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

We need more Themistocles and fewer Leonidas.

MADNESS

397 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:47:08pm

re: #359 Bobibutu

Don't even go there. /

Yeah. If we start fighting about Kerry again, I'm going to get under the table until it's over.

398 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:47:35pm

re: #393 Bobibutu

How it was prosecuted was the mistake.

Yep. It's very complicated. I like at the here and now more often than not. Vietnam turned out to be a pretty good country.

399 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:48:12pm

re: #396 Varek Raith

MADNESS

OK, if that is what you want...

400 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:48:25pm

re: #373 albusteve

so what?...how is that germain?

Military victories involve accomplishing objectives. Otherwise we wouldn't call it war, we'd call it killing people for sport.

401 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:48:27pm

re: #391 albusteve

we pounded the NVA to get them to the table in Paris...I understand all the peripheral stuff

We got them to the table in Paris, without saying out loud that it was a temporary ceasefire being negotiated, not a permanent peace. North Vietnam wasn't looking for peaceful coexistence, they were looking for a time-out so that they could rebuild and rearm, as well as prepare staging points for the next push to Saigon.

402 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:48:39pm

re: #398 Gus 802

Yep. It's very complicated. I like LOOK at the here and now more often than not. Vietnam turned out to be a pretty good country.

Sometimes it seems like I'm just typing a string of words. Like?

403 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:49:13pm

re: #402 Gus 802

Sometimes it seems like I'm just typing a string of words. Like?

Blond moment?

404 Bob Dillon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:49:42pm

re: #398 Gus 802

Yep. It's very complicated. I like at the here and now more often than not. Vietnam turned out to be a pretty good country.

I saw some recent photos of Saigon - mind blowing modern.

405 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:49:57pm

Indulge me.

The Battle of Blenheim

It was a summer evening;
Old Kaspar’s work was done,
And he before his cottage door
Was sitting in the sun;
And by him sported on the green
His little grandchild Wilhelmine.

She saw her brother Peterkin
Roll something large and round,
Which he beside the rivulet
In playing there had found.
He came to ask what he had found,
That was so large, and smooth, and round.

Old Kaspar took it from the boy,
Who stood expectant by;
And then the old man shook his head,
And with a natural sigh,
“‘Tis some poor fellow’s skull,” said he,
“Who fell in the great victory.

“I find them in the garden,
For there’s many here about;
And often, when I go to plow,
The plowshare turns them out;
For many thousand men,” said he,
“Were slain in that great victory.”

“Now tell us what ‘twas all about,”
Young Peterkin, he cries;
And little Wilhelmine looks up
With wonder-waiting eyes;
“Now tell us all about the war,
And what they fought each other for.”

“It was the English,” Kaspar cried,
“Who put the French to rout;
But what they fought each other for,
I could not well make out;
But everybody said,” quoth he,
“That ‘twas a famous victory.

“My father lived at Blenheim then,
Yon little stream hard by;
They burnt his dwelling to the ground,
And he was forced to fly;
So with his wife and child he fled,
Nor had he where to rest his head.

“With fire and sword the country round
Was wasted far and wide,
And many a childing mother then,
And new-born baby, died;
But things like that, you know, must be
At every famous victory.

“They say it was a shocking sight
After the field was won;
For many thousand bodies here
Lay rotting in the sun;
But things like that, you know, must be
After a famous victory.

“Great praise the Duke of Marlboro’ won,
And our good Prince Eugene.”
“Why, ‘twas a very wicked thing!”
Said little Wilhelmine.
“Nay, nay, my little girl,” quoth he;
“It was a famous victory.

“And everybody praised the Duke
Who this great fight did win.”
“But what good came of it at last?”
Quoth little Peterkin.
“Why, that I cannot tell,” said he;
“But ‘twas a famous victory.”

--Robert Southey

406 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:50:36pm

re: #398 Gus 802

Yep. It's very complicated. I like at the here and now more often than not. Vietnam turned out to be a pretty good country.

my good friend went back a year ago....he was treated like royalty, and even talked with some people that recalled his Riverine group that sailed up and down the Mekong...he speaks very highly of VN today

407 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:51:00pm

re: #394 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

We need more Themistocles and fewer Leonidas.

Without Themistocles, Leonidas wouldn't have been able to hold off the Persians for as long as he did. The reason the Persians were unable to go around him by sea is that the Athenian Navy had blocked the Artemisum Straights the Perians needed to pass through.

408 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:51:25pm

re: #401 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

We got them to the table in Paris, without saying out loud that it was a temporary ceasefire being negotiated, not a permanent peace. North Vietnam wasn't looking for peaceful coexistence, they were looking for a time-out so that they could rebuild and rearm, as well as prepare staging points for the next push to Saigon.

politics

409 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:51:29pm

re: #375 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

re: #378 Girth

And so it is. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.

410 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:51:44pm

re: #407 Dark_Falcon

Without Themistocles, Leonidas wouldn't have been able to hold off the Persians for as long as he did. The reason the Persians were unable to go around him by sea is that the Athenian Navy had blocked the Artemisum Straights the Perians needed to pass through.

That wasn't in 300!
///

411 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:52:15pm

re: #373 albusteve

so what?...how is that germain?

We have reached the end of mutual understanding.

That's going to have to be OK, I suppose.

412 Westward Ho  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:52:41pm

re: #407 Dark_Falcon

You know your Herodotus.

413 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:52:47pm

I'm fairly ashamed to admit this... the folks who put themselves in danger?

Much braver folks than I am.

RIP for the brave.

414 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:53:44pm

re: #386 Varek Raith

Let's now argue about the Battle of Thermopylae.
GO!
/

I don't know much about Thermopylae, but I do know two things:

1. People who see the Spartans as some kind of role model for the West are funny.

2. I want to see a movie made about Marathon.

415 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:54:12pm

re: #404 Bobibutu

I saw some recent photos of Saigon - mind blowing modern.

Saigon development and construction blog. Looks like they're doing very well.

416 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:54:21pm

re: #411 SanFranciscoZionist

We have reached the end of mutual understanding.

That's going to have to be OK, I suppose.

fine with me...now go fetch me a Redstripe

417 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:54:47pm

Amusingly enough, I've never seen all of 300.
Saw Meet the Spartans though.
Lol.
:/

418 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:55:20pm

re: #416 albusteve

fine with me...now go fetch me a Redstripe

Sure thing. You want some crisps with that?

419 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:55:48pm

re: #417 Varek Raith

Amusingly enough, I've never seen all of 300.
Saw Meet the Spartans though.
Lol.
:/

I am seriously wanting to downding you for this.

420 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:56:04pm

re: #405 SanFranciscoZionist

Indulge me.

The Battle of Blenheim


She saw her brother Peterkin
Roll something large and round,
Which he beside the rivulet
In playing there had found.
He came to ask what he had found,
That was so large, and smooth, and round.

Old Kaspar took it from the boy,
Who stood expectant by;
And then the old man shook his head,
And with a natural sigh,
“‘Tis some poor fellow’s skull,” said he,
“Who fell in the great victory.

“I find them in the garden,
For there’s many here about;
And often, when I go to plow,
The plowshare turns them out;
For many thousand men,” said he,
“Were slain in that great victory.”

“Now tell us what ‘twas all about,”
Young Peterkin, he cries;
And little Wilhelmine looks up
With wonder-waiting eyes;
“Now tell us all about the war,
And what they fought each other for.”

“It was the English,” Kaspar cried,
“Who put the French to rout;
But what they fought each other for,
I could not well make out;
But everybody said,” quoth he,
“That ‘twas a famous victory.

“My father lived at Blenheim then,
Yon little stream hard by;
They burnt his dwelling to the ground,
And he was forced to fly;
So with his wife and child he fled,
Nor had he where to rest his head.

“With fire and sword the country round
Was wasted far and wide,
And many a childing mother then,
And new-born baby, died;
But things like that, you know, must be
At every famous victory.

“They say it was a shocking sight
After the field was won;
For many thousand bodies here
Lay rotting in the sun;
But things like that, you know, must be
After a famous victory.

“Great praise the Duke of Marlboro’ won,
And our good Prince Eugene.”
“Why, ‘twas a very wicked thing!”
Said little Wilhelmine.
“Nay, nay, my little girl,” quoth he;
“It was a famous victory.

“And everybody praised the Duke
Who this great fight did win.”
“But what good came of it at last?”
Quoth little Peterkin.
“Why, that I cannot tell,” said he;
“But ‘twas a famous victory.”

--Robert Southey

The Duke of Marlborough, John Churchill, was fortunate indeed to have his most famous descendant as his greatest biographer. With "The Life of Marlborough", Winston Churchill overcame poems such as that and the verdics of other historians and established the Duke as a hero once more.

421 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:56:08pm

re: #415 Gus 802

Saigon development and construction blog. Looks like they're doing very well.

a major player now across the pacific realm...good for them, I always support indigenous people....freedom and liberty etc

422 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:56:17pm

re: #419 Girth

I am seriously wanting to downding you for this.

Xerxes Tron will avenge me!

423 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:56:19pm

re: #408 albusteve

politics

Are what lost us the war. Militarily, we won the majority of the battles that mattered, but politically we were propping up a government that was corrupt, dictatorial, and changed hands more often than a $1 bill. And as soon as we left, South Vietnam folded like a cheap suit and we were left looking like idiots for having pumping so much money and manpower into a government that simply was too stupid to live.

424 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:56:45pm

re: #414 SanFranciscoZionist

The candy bar?

425 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:56:55pm

re: #421 albusteve

a major player now across the pacific realm...good for them, I always support indigenous people...freedom and liberty etc

Kind of reminds me of San Francisco...

Image: dsc_0073.jpg

426 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:57:26pm

re: #419 Girth

I am seriously wanting to downding you for this.

I don't know, it's strange. I usually enjoy over-the-top movies. 300? Not so much.

427 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:57:47pm

re: #413 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm fairly ashamed to admit this... the folks who put themselves in danger?

Much braver folks than I am.

RIP for the brave.

Or danger finds you.
You are a brave sort of guy
If you are promised pie.

I bet :>

428 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:58:15pm

re: #417 Varek Raith

Amusingly enough, I've never seen all of 300.
Saw Meet the Spartans though.
Lol.
:/

Here, watch this, then you can say you did:

429 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:58:34pm

re: #414 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know much about Thermopylae, but I do know two things:

1. People who see the Spartans as some kind of role model for the West are funny.

2. I want to see a movie made about Marathon.

We need a good movie about the Punic Wars.

430 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:58:54pm

re: #425 Gus 802

Kind of reminds me of San Francisco...

Image: dsc_0073.jpg

fer sure it's not ABQ

431 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:59:20pm

re: #426 Varek Raith

I don't know, it's strange. I usually enjoy over-the-top movies. 300? Not so much.

Eh...300 was entertaining. The downding urge comes more from the fact that you've seen Meet the Spartans.

432 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:59:21pm

re: #427 marjoriemoon

Or danger finds you.
You are a brave sort of guy
If you are promised pie.

I bet :>

crap

Or danger finds you.
You are a brave sort of guy
If then promised pie.

433 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:59:28pm

re: #417 Varek Raith

Amusingly enough, I've never seen all of 300.
Saw Meet the Spartans though.
Lol.
:/

My husband brought it home because he loved the graphic novel.

It was pretty to watch, but I've always liked the Spartans, despite their many failings, and they never do them well in movies--this was no exception--and the way they portrayed Xerxes was just too damn weird.

And I had some real issues with the modern political stuff people read into it, although I guess that was sort of inevitable.

434 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:59:48pm

re: #410 Varek Raith

That wasn't in 300!
///

No, it wasn't. It would have made the story larger and more complex than Frank Miller wanted it to be. It also would have made Sparta look much worse by comparing it to Athens (though neither were any prize unless you were a male citizen).

435 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:00:06pm

re: #418 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure thing. You want some crisps with that?

sure, and some catfish too

436 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:00:16pm

re: #429 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

We need a good movie about the Punic Wars.

Full of the blood and carthage common to brutal ancient wars like these.

437 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:00:28pm

re: #430 albusteve

fer sure it's not ABQ

I can be famous in Japan Vietnam!

/

438 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:00:30pm

re: #425 Gus 802

Kind of reminds me of San Francisco...

Image: dsc_0073.jpg

Looks a bit like. Or parts of downtown San Diego.

439 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:00:54pm

re: #431 Girth

Eh...300 was entertaining. The downding urge comes more from the fact that you've seen Meet the Spartans.

Oh, yeah, lol.
I can't explain that.
:)

440 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:01:10pm

re: #429 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

We need a good movie about the Punic Wars.

That would be impossible. The war was too long and its events too many. A good movie might take one of its biggest battles and dramatise that, though.

441 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:01:36pm

re: #437 Gus 802

I can be famous in Japan Vietnam!

/

I spent a month in HCM City one night.....
bada boom!

442 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:02:39pm

Gucci Hanoi grand opening.

This is not your father's Hanoi. ;)

443 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:02:58pm

re: #440 Dark_Falcon

That would be impossible. The war was too long and its events too many. A good movie might take one of its biggest battles and dramatise that, though.

Perhaps the Roman victory at the Metarus River would be a good place to set a movie.

444 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:03:03pm

There's a movie coming out that seems to be banking on the premise that men will go see Natalie Portman in a bikini.

So I'm thinking of going to see this movie where Natalie Portman is in a bikini...

445 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:03:51pm

re: #442 Gus 802

Gucci Hanoi grand opening.

This is not your father's Hanoi. ;)

"please step this way Senator McCain"

446 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:04:19pm

re: #440 Dark_Falcon

That would be impossible. The war was too long and its events too many. A good movie might take one of its biggest battles and dramatise that, though.

2 parts, First starting with Lake Trasimene and ending with Cannae, the second starting with the stalemate and ending with Zama.

447 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:04:37pm

re: #444 Girth

There's a movie coming out that seems to be banking on the premise that men will go see Natalie Portman in a bikini.

So I'm thinking of going to see this movie where Natalie Portman is in a bikini...

Your Highness.

448 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:04:52pm

re: #447 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Your Highness.

Yes?

/

449 albusteve  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:05:07pm

re: #443 Dark_Falcon

Perhaps the Roman victory at the Metarus River would be a good place to set a movie.

I just love anything Roman

450 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:05:12pm

re: #448 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yes?

/

**SLAP**

451 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:05:15pm

re: #444 Girth

Right there with ya.

452 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:05:36pm

re: #440 Dark_Falcon

That would be impossible. The war was too long and its events too many. A good movie might take one of its biggest battles and dramatise that, though.

They could try in the form of a weird anime like Reign: The Conqueror.

453 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:05:42pm

re: #450 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

**SLAP**

What? Striking royalty?! How dare you! Off with your head!

/

454 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:05:53pm
455 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:06:03pm

re: #445 albusteve

"please step this way Senator McCain"

He's been there more than once since the war ended. John McCain is many things, but he's not a bitter man.

456 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:06:12pm

re: #413 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm fairly ashamed to admit this... the folks who put themselves in danger?

Much braver folks than I am.

RIP for the brave.

I think, that this is how most folks enter the war, whatever branch, they are there to learn, and they ar scares, UNTIL they learn & see how strong, and powerfull they can be as a group.
Veggie, you could be this strong, too.

457 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:06:50pm

re: #452 Varek Raith

They could try in the form of a weird anime like Reign: The Conqueror.

You can tell who the heroes are because they're effeminately handsome.

458 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:06:52pm

re: #452 Varek Raith

They could try in the form of a weird anime like Reign: The Conqueror.

SMACK!

459 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:07:16pm

I'm happy about a Gucci opening. Jot it down on your calendar. ;)

460 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:07:27pm

re: #434 Dark_Falcon

No, it wasn't. It would have made the story larger and more complex than Frank Miller wanted it to be. It also would have made Sparta look much worse by comparing it to Athens (though neither were any prize unless you were a male citizen).

The thing to remember about 300, I have to remind myself, is that it's deliberately simplified and larger than life.

I'm always interested that so little is made in literature and film of Spartan women, and the odd way they set up family units in the city. It was a very interesting culture. Ugly in many ways, but fascinating in others. Women married later than in most other Greek cities (so did men), and I've always been curious as to whether that, and the emphasis on women's athletics, kept their childbirth mortality down.

The very antithesis of Judaism in so many ways, but at the same time, there's a line from a book by, I think, Kitto, where he's talking about how to the modern person, Athens seems like the greater civilization because of the stuff they left behind--but the Spartans would have told you that they built men, not things. That seems very familiar, somehow.

Weirdness.

461 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:08:25pm

re: #452 Varek Raith

They could try in the form of a weird anime like Reign: The Conqueror.

I saw very little of Reign, but what I did see was freakin' sweet.

462 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:08:39pm

re: #457 laZardo

You can tell who the heroes are because they're effeminately handsome.

It's a culture thing.

re: #458 Dark_Falcon

SMACK!

What?!
:P

463 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:09:03pm

re: #461 Girth

I saw very little of Reign, but what I did see was freakin' sweet.

I liked it.

464 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:09:20pm

re: #444 Girth

There's a movie coming out that seems to be banking on the premise that men will go see Natalie Portman in a bikini.

So I'm thinking of going to see this movie where Natalie Portman is in a bikini...

I'm pretty sure that men will go to see Natalie Portman in a bikini. Although I did try to get my husband to see "Erin Brockovich" by promising Julia Roberts in low-cut blouses, and he told me that unless there was full frontal nudity, he wasn't interested.

465 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:10:23pm

You could build a very strong story about the relationship between Fabius Maximus and Marcus Minucius.

466 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:10:25pm

re: #449 albusteve

I just love anything Roman

They do the Romans in sixth grade, and I really wanted to show my little guys some clips from "Rome", the series, but once you've cut out the sex and the violence, there is no show left.

467 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:10:36pm
468 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:10:53pm

re: #464 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #465 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And Nieman Marcus!

469 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:11:38pm

Ugh. I have that party and clubbing urge I used to get in my 30s and early 40s. Wish I was healthy.

470 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:11:39pm

re: #460 SanFranciscoZionist

The thing to remember about 300, I have to remind myself, is that it's deliberately simplified and larger than life.

I'm always interested that so little is made in literature and film of Spartan women, and the odd way they set up family units in the city. It was a very interesting culture. Ugly in many ways, but fascinating in others. Women married later than in most other Greek cities (so did men), and I've always been curious as to whether that, and the emphasis on women's athletics, kept their childbirth mortality down.

The very antithesis of Judaism in so many ways, but at the same time, there's a line from a book by, I think, Kitto, where he's talking about how to the modern person, Athens seems like the greater civilization because of the stuff they left behind--but the Spartans would have told you that they built men, not things. That seems very familiar, somehow.

Weirdness.

The Spartan women citizens were indeed freer than any others in Greece, but they were also oppressors of a nasty sort. They were as fit ass they were so that they could keep the helot serfs under control while the men were away. The helots themselves would have done much better under Xerxes, since the Persian Empire would have taken about 20% of their harvest, compared with the 50% the Spartan citizens took. That may be a reason Leonidas chose to engage the Persians so far from Sparta.

471 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:12:23pm

re: #465 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You could build a very strong story about the relationship between Fabius Maximus and Marcus Minucius.

That could definitely help build a fangirlbase.

...I'm sorry.

472 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:13:27pm

re: #460 SanFranciscoZionist

I believe it was Frank Miller who said it should be read as it was "intended" - a propaganda story told by the soldier-narrator to rally the armies for the Battle of Plataea at the end.

473 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:13:31pm

re: #470 Dark_Falcon

The Spartan women citizens were indeed freer than any others in Greece, but they were also oppressors of a nasty sort. They were as fit ass they were so that they could keep the helot serfs under control while the men were away. The helots themselves would have done much better under Xerxes, since the Persian Empire would have taken about 20% of their harvest, compared with the 50% the Spartan citizens took. That may be a reason Leonidas chose to engage the Persians so far from Sparta.

Sure, the whole thing ran on the labor of the helots, and the terror directed against them. Which is one of the reasons I thought it was so ironic that people saw Sparta, when 300 came out, as this icon of the free West.

474 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:14:48pm
475 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:15:24pm

re: #466 SanFranciscoZionist

They do the Romans in sixth grade, and I really wanted to show my little guys some clips from "Rome", the series, but once you've cut out the sex and the violence, there is no show left.

I remember early 80s, they had a TV miniseries about Masada and the siege.

476 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:15:50pm

So much of what I thought I had forgotten about ancient history is coming back to me.
Neat.

477 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:17:15pm

And here it is...

Masada 7.9/10

Stars:
Peter O'Toole, Peter Strauss and Barbara Carrera

478 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:18:15pm
479 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:19:13pm
480 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:20:15pm

I'll say this for my parents. As long as their was a historical or classical reference to the story, I could watch it. I think I was the only 8 year old to see Excalibur in the theater opening weekend.

481 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:22:17pm
482 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:22:18pm

I've got to head to bed. Great discussion, though.

Goodnight, all.

483 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:26:04pm
484 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:27:56pm

re: #483 Gus 802

Leonard Cohen - Hallelujah

[Video]

More partial to The Future

485 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:29:26pm

Good night everyone.

486 Girth  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:31:09pm

Goodnight ladies and gentlemen.

487 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:32:01pm

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
The blizzard, the blizzard of the world
has crossed the threshold
and it has overturned
the order of the soul

Thats some damn fine singing right there.

488 KingKenrod  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:35:01pm

re: #44 austin_blue

The level of tribalism/factionalism in The Big A is astounding. The only way we were ever going to get a handle on it was to go in, toss out the Taliban, secure the country, and get everybody at a big ass table, including the Taliban, to divide the country and its resources so that everybody got their piece of the vig. It has always and will remain a loose republic of tribes and ethnic groups, at best.

We are dancing about architecture in that benighted country. We have no concept of their culture. We just need to get the fuck out and kill the whack jobs from the air until they understand that they are are just another western Pakistan.

Which sucks. But that kind of Islamism cannot be allowed to flower again. If that pisses the Pakistanis and Afghanis off, fuck 'em. We can't let a bunch of Madrasah-trained ignorant fucktards dictate to the west.

Wow. And I'm a Liberal. A dyed in the wool Liberal.

Color me pissed as shit right now.

Ace is talking about nuking civilian population centers in retaliation. You're still way to the left of that.

489 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:36:34pm

Another stupid search options update at Youtube.

490 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:38:39pm

I'm about to get slammed as a clueless liberal on another list I'm on.

Deep breaths. Deep breaths.

491 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:39:14pm

re: #490 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm about to get slammed as a clueless liberal on another list I'm on.

Deep breaths. Deep breaths.

post the talking points here! We'll help you bash them back :D

492 laZardo  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:39:47pm

re: #490 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm about to get slammed as a clueless liberal on another list I'm on.

Deep breaths. Deep breaths.

Could be worse. You could be dealing with Friedman-Paulites.

493 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:40:08pm

re: #491 WindUpBird

which honestly is more fun than actually arguing, the whole "these guys on this thread hate me! Help me figure out something funny to say!"

494 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:42:24pm

re: #488 KingKenrod

Ace is talking about nuking civilian population centers in retaliation. You're still way to the left of that.

That's not even left or right, that's just a guy with a 80 IQ doing his thing

495 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:42:32pm

re: #490 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm about to get slammed as a clueless liberal on another list I'm on.

Deep breaths. Deep breaths.

You're not clueless.

496 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:48:27pm

re: #491 WindUpBird

post the talking points here! We'll help you bash them back :D

Just an ideological/operational disagreement between Zionist activists.

I used to be on this Jewish feminist list where I was the most right-wing nut on Israel that any of the moonbats had ever encountered. I hurt people's feelers a lot. I even made fun of the woman who wanted to sleep with an IDF guy--just a generic one--who refused to serve in the territories. The folks who were in my ballpark called ourselves the 'relative rightniks'.

Now I'm working with some folks--good folks--who think that political correctness has eaten my brain.

It's all relative. Relative rightnik, relative leftnik...

497 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:48:55pm

re: #495 Walter L. Newton

You're not clueless.

Thank you. That's encouraging.

498 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:52:58pm

Used to love this song.

"El Reloj" -Luis Miguel

499 freetoken  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:57:00pm

re: #498 Gus 802

Good for Rumba/Bolero dancing, which btw is on the menu for next week's DWTS.

500 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:58:32pm

re: #499 freetoken

Good for Rumba/Bolero dancing, which btw is on the menu for next week's DWTS.

You ever take dance lessons? I actually used to like the dance.

501 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 10:59:59pm

This is another good one.

Luis Miguel - La Bikina

502 Flavia  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:01:27pm

re: #64 laZardo

What's the difference between what Terry Jones did and what Kurt Westergaard did?

Westergaard wasn't fundraising, Westergaard very clearly stated he wanted to exercise freedom of expression, Westergaard didn't try to change what he did after the fact, &, if anything, comparing the two actually exonerates Jones more than I am willing to do (even tho' yes, I do hold the murderers responsible - no one MADE them do ANYTHING).

503 Querent  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:01:36pm

Outreach my arse -- looks more like out-lash...

504 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:01:58pm

re: #501 Gus 802

This is another good one.

Luis Miguel - La Bikina

[Video]

and on the other hand

505 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:03:07pm

re: #504 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

and on the other hand

[Video]

Ha. I was thinking Irish when it opened.

506 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:04:03pm

re: #505 Gus 802

Ha. I was thinking Irish when it opened.

And then we have shaddap you face

507 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:07:25pm

re: #506 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And then we have shaddap you face

[Video]

For a minute there I thought I was looking at Uncle Floyd.

508 Kragar  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:12:18pm

re: #507 Gus 802

For a minute there I thought I was looking at Uncle Floyd.

509 Gus  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:23:49pm

'Night.

510 efuseakay  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:32:09pm

Someone needs to go to Terry Jone's hate-church, dump a truck load of Bibles there, and burn them. I wonder how he'd react.

511 freetoken  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:49:31pm

re: #500 Gus 802

Used to do a lot dancing. I've taken classes in just about everything but hip hop.

512 Mr Pancakes  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:53:00pm

re: #511 freetoken

Used to do a lot dancing. I've taken classes in just about everything but hip hop.

Hula?

513 Mr Pancakes  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:56:51pm

re: #506 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And then we have shaddap you face

[Video]

That was a hit here.....ah shadup a ya face!

514 freetoken  Fri, Apr 1, 2011 11:58:14pm

re: #513 Mr Pancakes

That was a hit here...ah shadup a ya face!

Not directly, but I had a dance acquaintance/partner who did South Pacific dances. This was before it became a (short lived) exercise fad.

515 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:00:30am

re: #514 freetoken

Not directly, but I had a dance acquaintance/partner who did South Pacific dances. This was before it became a (short lived) exercise fad.

My wife loves to dance (she's Mexican) I find it a chore. Mexicans are born with the dance gene..... gringos are not.

516 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:02:07am

re: #510 efuseakay

Someone needs to go to Terry Jone's hate-church, dump a truck load of Bibles there, and burn them. I wonder how he'd react.

But that's not fun. A few fly-bys that shower the church with hundreds of thousands of gay pr0n fliers. Graphic ones. Now that's good clean fun!

517 freetoken  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:37:20am

re: #515 Mr Pancakes

. Mexicans are born with the dance gene... gringos are not.

Au contraire my friend.

518 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:46:12am

re: #517 freetoken

Au contraire my friend.

Hmmmm....... Well the dance gene escaped me and most gringos I've ever known. When I worked in TJ my boss referred them as "hoppers".

519 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:43:20am

re: #510 efuseakay

Someone needs to go to Terry Jone's hate-church, dump a truck load of Bibles there, and burn them. I wonder how he'd react.

Well... I suspect he wouldn't go to the local mosque and shoot it up and burn it down... just a hunch.

520 tnguitarist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:59:09am

re: #519 Walter L. Newton

Well... I suspect he wouldn't go to the local mosque and shoot it up and burn it down... just a hunch.

No, he would just incite someone else to do it for him.

521 Achilles Tang  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 6:30:41am

re: #123 CuriousLurker

I'm still trying to figure out how you physically isolate "them". Them who? All Muslims or just radical Islamists? If just the Islamists, then how do you sieve them out?

Good morning.

Still asking the same question without attempting to contribute to the answer, I see.

I gave a facetious answer to try to prod you last night and all you could do was ding.

The only real answer, other than burn a koran a day until they get tired of rioting (facetiously said, in case you don't understand), is for their own community to isolate them and do what civilized countries would do to rabble rousers.

Namely arrest the instigators and and anyone else identified and charge them with murder. However since their culture is not what we call civilized, that doesn't leave us many options except except to show contempt, does it?

522 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 7:18:24am

The only shame about seeing a Quran desecrated is that it wasn't someone smarter doing it.

The real shame lies in the murderous mindset of the mob members who killed these workers because of the combustion of a small amount of ink and paper on another continent.

523 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 7:23:28am

re: #522 SidewaysQuark

The only shame about seeing a Quran desecrated is that it wasn't someone smarter doing it.

Can you explain the purpose of desecrating a Koran, no matter who is doing the desecrating?

524 SD-B  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 8:37:16am
re: #82 Girth

We defeated industrialized Nazis and the Soviets, but a small group of religious fanatics are an existential threat? Bullshit.

They are to be dealt with, not feared.

I agree. They should not be as big a problem to take down as they have proven so far to be but I think the big differences between the days of the Nazis, Soviets, is that we are now dealing with a much larger problem of political correctness that tends to tie our hands.

Secondly, the news media today, partly due to political correctness, is there on the scene 24/7 on our side, not the enemies side and this has constricted soldiers far too much i believe.

As long as we are involved in wars that the masses dont support, everything from the media to the internet now works against "our side" and eventually it takes a huge toll.
I am a firm believer that war should not be viewable to the world. I am not sure what the answer is in the times of CNN, but i just dont think its working for us in any way whatsoever to have minute by minute reporting taking place.

525 claire  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:25:18am

re: #523 Obdicut

I reject the idea that it's possible to make scared in the first place an inantimate object, mass produced by another inantimate object, that is wholly owned by another and has no historical, or even sentimental value. Thus you can't desecrate something that isn't sacred in the first place. And I would submit that your right to declare something sacred ends with your own property. Not anybody elses, since it's a fake construct.

They don't have the right to declare my property as special to them in any way.

I don't do supernatural.

526 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:34:33am

re: #523 Obdicut

Because it's funny? Who cares what the reason is.

Point is, the idiot in Florida set a small fire in a garbage can. A small group of barbarians in Afghanistan beheaded innocent people. The "offenses" aren't even comparable.

The problem isn't "desecration" (a rather pointless term invented by superstitionalists in the first place), it's how people react to the burning of a commonly found book. I mean, Jesus, it's not like he burned an original copy of Newton's Principia.

527 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:59:04am

re: #525 claire

So what? I'm an atheist. I believe anything is sacred.

That's not the reason to not burn it.

528 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:02:02am

re: #526 SidewaysQuark

Because it's funny? Who cares what the reason is.

Reasons are kind of important.

Did Jones burn the Koran because it was funny?


Point is, the idiot in Florida set a small fire in a garbage can. A small group of barbarians in Afghanistan beheaded innocent people. The "offenses" aren't even comparable.

Jones, an American, coming from one of the most privileged nations on earth, having grown up with the Constitution and tolerance of religion as cultural values, chose to burn a Koran to symbolize his hatred for Islam after having been told by General Petraeus that it would lead to harm.

I don't have to compare that to anything. It's fucking stupid, hateful, and selfish.

The problem isn't "desecration" (a rather pointless term invented by superstitionalists in the first place), it's how people react to the burning of a commonly found book.

The problem is both. I'm not sure why that's a hard concept to grasp. Burning the book of a specific religion is a hateful, bigoted attack on that religion and its members. It's not value-free.

529 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:15:10pm

re: #528 Obdicut

Setting a book on fire is no reason to kill people. I'm not sure why that's a hard concept to grasp. Attacking the beliefs of a religion isn't the same thing as attacking its members. If a person wants to take an attack on their irrational beliefs as a personal attack on himself/herself, that's really the individual's problem, and if he/she gets mad and kills people, there's no one else to blame.
The Reverand Jones is a dumbass, but where would you draw the line? Is "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day" 'hateful'? Is the South Park episode with Muhammad 'forbidden art'?

All other ideas are open to criticism. Religion doesn't deserve special treatment just because superstitionalists call it "sacred™", and attacking a religious belief doesn't automatically become "bigotry™" just because of that label. Instead of getting worked up of stupid stuff, people around the world would be better off learning that their religion isn't really that special and getting thicker skin.

Calling attention to a "bigot" when the elephant in the room is "multiple murder" is just acting as enabler to the problem.

530 claire  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:43:00pm

re: #528 Obdicut

Didn't say it was. To even use the term "desecration" buys into their argument that the paper in the trash can can be claimed by them to possess value.

531 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 3, 2011 10:07:01am

re: #530 claire

Didn't say it was. To even use the term "desecration" buys into their argument that the paper in the trash can can be claimed by them to possess value.

Religious texts do have value, both as symbols and as the actual text, to those who believe in that religion. It's like 'sentimental value', but in a larger sense.

532 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 3, 2011 10:21:47am

re: #529 SidewaysQuark

Setting a book on fire is no reason to kill people. I'm not sure why that's a hard concept to grasp. Attacking the beliefs of a religion isn't the same thing as attacking its members. If a person wants to take an attack on their irrational beliefs as a personal attack on himself/herself, that's really the individual's problem, and if he/she gets mad and kills people, there's no one else to blame.
The Reverand Jones is a dumbass, but where would you draw the line? Is "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day" 'hateful'? Is the South Park episode with Muhammad 'forbidden art'?

All other ideas are open to criticism. Religion doesn't deserve special treatment just because superstitionalists call it "sacred™", and attacking a religious belief doesn't automatically become "bigotry™" just because of that label. Instead of getting worked up of stupid stuff, people around the world would be better off learning that their religion isn't really that special and getting thicker skin.

Calling attention to a "bigot" when the elephant in the room is "multiple murder" is just acting as enabler to the problem.

Oh, bullshit. Some of us can hold two concepts in our heads at one time -- that the rioters in Afghanistan are responsible for their actions just as much as Terry Jones is responsible for his.

Jones deliberately, with full knowledge of what would happen, put other people's lives on the line to pull this bigoted stunt. Why is this a difficult concept for some people to grasp? He did this on purpose. He didn't kill those people himself, but he absolutely did set their deaths in motion.

533 Claire  Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:37:36pm

re: #531 Obdicut

Religious texts do have value, both as symbols and as the actual text, to those who believe in that religion. It's like 'sentimental value', but in a larger sense.

It's like lunacy, but in a larger sense. Especially if the one they've developed a sudden deep affection for was bought by me at a Borders for $7.99 in paperback.


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