Second Day of Deadly Protests Over Koran Burning

Psycho preacher’s stunt triggers more violence and death
World • Views: 42,339

Terry Jones’s bigoted stunt has now triggered violence in Kandahar, as hard-line imams and Taliban leaders exploit the Koran-burning to whip up hatred against Americans and other foreigners: Deadly Protests for Koran Burning Reach Kandahar.

I notice today that the usual right wing idiots are screaming that I blame Terry Jones for the violence, but not the Muslim protesters — and that’s nonsense.

The rioters who murdered UN workers and ran amok today in Kandahar are responsible for their actions. But Terry Jones, who was warned repeatedly by top US officials that violence would be the result, is also responsible for his actions. Jones is a pathetic coward who put the lives of others on the line in order to make a statement of pure bigotry. And more than a dozen are now dead because of it.

In this country, Jones has the constitutional right to burn any book he feels like burning. Should he be punished for this? Not legally, no. But this disgusting, deliberately provocative act does not deserve anyone’s support, and Jones is no hero for free speech. He’s a twisted, amoral man hiding behind religion — just like the Afghan imams who incited these crowds to violence.

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345 comments
1 laZardo  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 8:58:40am

And it is religion continuing to fuel this bigotry from East to West and back again.

2 Lidane  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:03:52am
He’s a pathetic coward who put the lives of others on the line in order to make a statement of pure bigotry.

You're being far too kind, Charles. The real words to describe him would be completely unprofessional and would set more delicate ears on fire.

3 Mattand  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:04:51am

What laZardo said. When I see religious-driven hatred like this, I always wonder why I didn't become an atheist sooner.

4 simoom  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:08:11am

Karzai...

Both Afghan and international news media had initially played down or ignored the actions of Mr. Jones, the Florida pastor. On Thursday, however, President Karzai made a speech and issued statements condemning the Koran burning and calling for the arrest of Mr. Jones for his actions. On Friday, that theme was picked up in mosques throughout Afghanistan.

...

"Karzai brought this issue back to life, and he has to take some responsibility for starting this up,” said a prominent Afghan businessman, who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of retribution if he was identified as a critic of the president.

“Karzai’s speech itself provoked people to take such actions,” said Qayum Baabak, a political analyst in Mazar-i-Sharif. “Karzai should have called on people to be patient rather than making people more angry.”

Idiot:

In Kandahar, several thousand young men, shouting slogans calling for death to Americans and to the government of President Hamid Karzai, were still rioting after several hours on Saturday, setting tires on fire throughout the city, burning cars and attacking journalists trying to cover the disorder.
5 beartiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:10:07am

He was at least being consistent with his faith. In unrelated reading yesterday, I was somewhat surprised to learn that the book of Acts in the Bible condones the burning of books as a bellwether of spreading the word of the lord (Acts 19:19-20). This is one of the many reasons I'm not a Christian, I guess, since I consider the very thought of burning a book, even one I disagree with as much as the Koran, repugnant.

6 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:11:01am

re: #5 beartiger

He was at least being consistent with his faith. In unrelated reading yesterday, I was somewhat surprised to learn that the book of Acts in the Bible condones the burning of books as a bellwether of spreading the word of the lord (Acts 19:19-20). This is one of the many reasons I'm not a Christian, I guess, since I consider the very thought of burning a book, even one I disagree with as much as the Koran, repugnant.

How about flags?

7 laZardo  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:15:01am

re: #5 beartiger

Interesting.

Act 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all [men]: and they counted the price of them, and found [it] fifty thousand [pieces] of silver.

Act 19:20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.

Can't hide behind the New Testament anymore, can they. :D

8 allegro  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:16:56am

re: #5 beartiger

I consider the very thought of burning a book, even one I disagree with as much as the Koran, repugnant.

What part of the Koran do you find disagreeable?

9 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:17:33am

Does anyone recall the destruction of the Buddha statues in Afghanistan by the Taliban? The Taliban and it's adherents could learn a valuable lesson from the worlds reaction to that. No violence. Just profound disgust and jaw dropping sadness.

Nobody ran around attacking Mosques or killing Afghan people. A telling difference, imo.

10 Kronocide  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:17:57am

If Terry Jones was his Afghan equivalent, he'd be lying through the bullhorn or rioting himself right now.

He's about as culpable as the local leaders and imams who shout through the bullhorns agitating the actual rioters. Those bullhorn agitators aren't responsible, are they? They aren't rioting or murdering UN members, no?

11 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:19:04am

re: #7 laZardo

Interesting.

Can't hide behind the New Testament anymore, can they. :D

I'm confused by your "take" on this scripture. This is in reference to books and implements of "magical arts," "pagan" writings and other offensive secular material. The way this reads, it was acceptable to the lord.

This would be a scripture that dome christians would use to prove that burning a "pagan" book like the koran is acceptable to god.

12 Lidane  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:20:08am

re: #10 BigPapa

The rioters are responsible for their actions. So is Terry Jones, since his actions are what the rioters are reacting to.

It's epic fail and ignorance on both sides, but let's face facts here-- these attacks most likely wouldn't have happened without the provocation of the Qu'ran burning.

13 laZardo  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:20:26am

re: #9 Rightwingconspirator

Does anyone recall the destruction of the Buddha statues in Afghanistan by the Taliban? The Taliban and it's adherents could learn a valuable lesson from the worlds reaction to that. No violence. Just profound disgust and jaw dropping sadness.

Nobody ran around attacking Mosques or killing Afghan people. A telling difference, imo.

Did they ever find the third one?

14 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:21:14am

What is the life expectancy of a non Islamic but very religious person or group in Afghanistan?

Seems to me only a primitivist would see the book itself as holy, rather than the lessons it contains. Only a primitivist would forget we can print the holy books as fast as our machines can run.

15 laZardo  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:22:03am

re: #11 Walter L. Newton

I'm confused by your "take" on this scripture. This is in reference to books and implements of "magical arts," "pagan" writings and other offensive secular material. The way this reads, it was acceptable to the lord.

This would be a scripture that dome christians would use to prove that burning a "pagan" book like the koran is acceptable to god.

I followed beartiger's reference, looked it up just to see if he was quoting the right one. To "dome Christians," any book that ISN'T the Bible (or written by approved religious writers) can just as well be burned, and they have the scripture to "justify" it.

Hence, religion promoting bigotry.

16 Kronocide  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:24:16am

re: #12 Lidane

The rioters are responsible for their actions. So is Terry Jones, since his actions are what the rioters are reacting to.

It's epic fail and ignorance on both sides, but let's face facts here-- these attacks most likely wouldn't have happened without the provocation of the Qu'ran burning.

Of course. Jones broke no law and did not riot or murder. Yet we are breaking no law by pointing out that '... these attacks most likely wouldn't have happened without the provocation of the Qu'ran burning.'

If Jones gets a pass, I suppose all the provocateurs do as well. So does Muhammed.

17 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:27:08am

re: #15 laZardo

I followed beartiger's reference, looked it up just to see if he was quoting the right one. To "dome Christians," any book that ISN'T the Bible (or written by approved religious writers) can just as well be burned, and they have the scripture to "justify" it.

Hence, religion promoting bigotry.

Well... first off... there was no "bible" when this scripture was recorded, or verbally passed on... no greek scriptures anyway (new testament).

I still don't understand why you said "Can't hide behind the New Testament anymore, can they" Considering this scripture, and the attitude of some christians to other religious books being of "pagan" origins, I'm still not sure what they are hiding behind?

18 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:27:51am

re: #13 laZardo

Maybe... A smaller one. Nothing on the big one.

Same link

Another giant statue unearthed

On 8 September 2008 archeologists searching for a legendary 300-metre statue at the site of the already dynamited Buddhas announced the discovery of an unknown 19-metre (62-foot) reclining Buddha, a pose representing Buddha's passage into nirvana.[38]

19 Lidane  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:29:01am

re: #16 BigPapa

I'm an atheist. I blame magical thinking and reliance on Bronze Age scriptures on all sides for what happened. Jones doesn't get a pass, and neither do the rioters. Both are equally ignorant, bigoted assholes, and both sides have blood on their hands, since it was the Qu'ran burning that directly led to the deaths of those UN workers at the hands of the rioters.

I'm not sure what the point of blaming Muhammad is, but whatever. Are you saying that if he'd never written the Qu'ran in the first place that none of this would have happened at all?

20 laZardo  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:29:44am

re: #17 Walter L. Newton

Well... first off... there was no "bible" when this scripture was recorded, or verbally passed on... no greek scriptures anyway (new testament).

I still don't understand why you said "Can't hide behind the New Testament anymore, can they" Considering this scripture, and the attitude of some christians to other religious books being of "pagan" origins, I'm still not sure what they are hiding behind?

Oh, that. I meant there a lot of modern Christians who would say their beliefs promote harmony and acceptance. That it's the New Testament they're living by, "love thy neighbor" and all.

21 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:37:01am

re: #20 laZardo

Oh, that. I meant there a lot of modern Christians who would say their beliefs promote harmony and acceptance. That it's the New Testament they're living by, "love thy neighbor" and all.

Ok... I couldn't quite understand your connection... now I do. There are many passages in the greek scriptures that promote and promise harsh measures to be taken by believers and christian leaders. The greek scriptures are not a "can't we all get along" document.

And that's where liberal christians and fundamentalist christians confuse each other. Typically, liberal christians ignore or try to pass off the more demanding scriptures as pertinent only to the times they were written, and that the basic message is love and harmony.

Where as fundamentalist christians, who tend to read the scriptures in a more literal way, understand that there is times of disharmony and in the least spiritual warfare in a believers life.

You have to understand those two distinctions to understand how certain variations of christianity can seem to contradict itself.

22 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:37:45am

re: #17 Walter L. Newton

Of course attitudes & actions often conflict with scripture, or twist Bible passages like pretzels. Kinda hard to blame the scripture for it's abuse for gain. I do not think you can make a good case from scripture than one must or even should burn a Koran. Particularly given the results.

23 stockman  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:38:54am

Jones' action was certainly provocative, but it unfortunately reinforced the impression of fanatical Muslim hypersensitivity to perceived insult, and the tendency for violent murderous reaction, whether to a Koran burning or a cartoon drawing.

24 Kronocide  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:40:10am

re: #19 Lidane


I'm not sure what the point of blaming Muhammad is, but whatever. Are you saying that if he'd never written the Qu'ran in the first place that none of this would have happened at all?

No, maybe I'm not being clear.

I'm making the point that if Jones gets a pass (those 'defending' him, not you), so does the guys with the bullhorns driving around lying to the crowds about '100's of Qurans' being burned. By that extension, Islam and Muhammed are not to blame either, it's pretty much the 'magical thinking' you deplore. As an atheist, I have little quarrel with that.

Another point I'm making is that I see little difference between Terry Jones and those rioting in Afghanistan. Take away the language and redneckiness and you're left with the same hatred based bigotry at it's core.

25 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:40:54am

re: #23 stockman

That's not an impression it is a reality, of a certain fanatical subset of Muslim people. The same subset would be violent and fanatical regardless of anything else I suspect.

26 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:41:39am

re: #24 BigPapa


Another point I'm making is that I see little difference between Terry Jones and those rioting in Afghanistan. Take away the language and redneckiness and you're left with the same hatred based bigotry at it's core.

QFT

27 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:42:28am

re: #22 Rightwingconspirator

Of course attitudes & actions often conflict with scripture, or twist Bible passages like pretzels. Kinda hard to blame the scripture for it's abuse for gain. I do not think you can make a good case from scripture than one must or even should burn a Koran. Particularly given the results.

Of course you can... and that scripture that Lazardo linked to and quoted HAS BEEN USED NUMEROUS TIMES IN THE PAST.

How can you even make a statement like " I do not think you can make a good case from scripture." Did you read the whole chapter. That is exactly what is being discussed in that chapter. Paul preaching to the folks, they repent of there pagan ways and burn and destroy their magical "books" and implements.

That's the company line on that chapter, I'm not making it up, it's not interpretation, standard dogma and theological understanding of that scripture.

And I have heard christians use that very chapter as an example of why it can be proper to burn other religious texts.

Really, this is a no brainer.

28 Kronocide  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:42:37am

re: #23 stockman

Jones reinforced some impressions and realities himself with this stunt.

And to that, I have to go off and commit capitalism.

29 laZardo  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:43:11am

re: #21 Walter L. Newton

I suppose I've seen it as the liberal Christians in their "passing off" of certain parts of the scripture as less faithful and thus less representative of their faith than the fundamentalists.

30 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:44:31am

re: #29 laZardo

I suppose I've seen it as the liberal Christians in their "passing off" of certain parts of the scripture as less faithful and thus less representative of their faith than the fundamentalists.

That would be the fundamentalist's position, yes... it's not my position, I'm just explaining the situation and how these things are perceived with in the various denominations of christianity.

31 dubi  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:45:27am

Look at how much damage one idiot can do.

I'm talking about Goldstone of course.

32 elizajane  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:47:15am

re: #19 Lidane

I'm an atheist. I blame magical thinking and reliance on Bronze Age scriptures on all sides for what happened. Jones doesn't get a pass, and neither do the rioters. Both are equally ignorant, bigoted assholes, and both sides have blood on their hands, since it was the Qu'ran burning that directly led to the deaths of those UN workers at the hands of the rioters.

I'm not sure what the point of blaming Muhammad is, but whatever. Are you saying that if he'd never written the Qu'ran in the first place that none of this would have happened at all?

Religions are like any ideology: they can be misused as an excuse for exercises of power, and to rally people to move against those you dislike. Twentieth-century history is replete with non-religious violence incited on ideological grounds. Islam is the violence-inspiring ideology of the moment; this does not make it unique in its potential to produce violence.

In the whole blame-game cycle yesterday, I am with the person (I forget who it was) who said that Jones bears greater responsibility because he started with the advantage of being born in America, an advanced nation where he had infinite opportunities to learn the virtues of tolerance. The people who rioted in Afghanistan lacked those advantages. They are not, though, absolved of all responsibility because of that.

There is still PLENTY of blame for everyone! Heaps! Take a shovel-full and give it to the candidate of your choice!

33 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:52:25am

re: #5 beartiger

He was at least being consistent with his faith. In unrelated reading yesterday, I was somewhat surprised to learn that the book of Acts in the Bible condones the burning of books as a bellwether of spreading the word of the lord (Acts 19:19-20). This is one of the many reasons I'm not a Christian, I guess, since I consider the very thought of burning a book, even one I disagree with as much as the Koran, repugnant.

"Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all [men]: and they counted the price of them, and found [it] fifty thousand [pieces] of silver."

I would say that's a description of converts burning books (of magic?) to exhibit their new commitment. Still skeeves me out, but a bit different to burning someone else's holy text as an act of public assholery.

Either way, the mainstream of Christian faith in the modern age does not advocate such an interpretation. You can find justification for damn near anything in Scripture, but the mores of the society that lives by that text also count.

So Jones is not being consistent, just a vindictive schmuck.

34 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:53:36am

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

After re reading, I see it tells of what was done then. Where is the passage that says this must be repeated for all time and against all the religions apart from Christianity? Who gave Paul's authority to the rest of the Christians for all time?

It's a leap to claim this as a current call to actions.

35 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:53:56am

And I think we need to be very careful of what we say here, re: #33 SanFranciscoZionist

"Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all [men]: and they counted the price of them, and found [it] fifty thousand [pieces] of silver."

I would say that's a description of converts burning books (of magic?) to exhibit their new commitment. Still skeeves me out, but a bit different to burning someone else's holy text as an act of public assholery.

Either way, the mainstream of Christian faith in the modern age does not advocate such an interpretation. You can find justification for damn near anything in Scripture, but the mores of the society that lives by that text also count.

So Jones is not being consistent, just a vindictive schmuck.

because we wouldn't want to start another riot.

You're wrong...

Book Burning: A True Christian® Tradition

[Link: www.landoverbaptist.org...]

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:54:21am

re: #14 Rightwingconspirator

What is the life expectancy of a non Islamic but very religious person or group in Afghanistan?

Seems to me only a primitivist would see the book itself as holy, rather than the lessons it contains. Only a primitivist would forget we can print the holy books as fast as our machines can run.

Count me as a primitivist then. Jones also talked about burning the Talmud, and I almost screamed.

Too much bad history with book burning. Too much.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:57:05am

re: #23 stockman

Jones' action was certainly provocative, but it unfortunately reinforced the impression of fanatical Muslim hypersensitivity to perceived insult, and the tendency for violent murderous reaction, whether to a Koran burning or a cartoon drawing.

So, basically,

1. Jones is happy because everyone is looking at him.
2. Inflammatory imams and such are happy, because they can say the word, and riots break out.
3. People who hate Muslims are happy because they're getting bias reinforcement.
4. Aid workers, the U.S. Military, women and children in Afghanistan, Gurkhas, and anyone who was hoping we could get through the next couple of months without another one of these are SOL.

38 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:57:08am

re: #33 SanFranciscoZionist

"Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all [men]: and they counted the price of them, and found [it] fifty thousand [pieces] of silver."

I would say that's a description of converts burning books (of magic?) to exhibit their new commitment. Still skeeves me out, but a bit different to burning someone else's holy text as an act of public assholery.

Either way, the mainstream of Christian faith in the modern age does not advocate such an interpretation. You can find justification for damn near anything in Scripture, but the mores of the society that lives by that text also count.

So Jones is not being consistent, just a vindictive schmuck.

ccording to scholar Elaine Pagels, "In AD 367, Athanasius, the zealous bishop of Alexandria… issued an Easter letter in which he demanded that Egyptian monks destroy all such unacceptable writings, except for those he specifically listed as 'acceptable' even 'canonical' — a list that constitutes the present 'New Testament'".[citation needed] Although Pagels cites Athanasius's Paschal letter (letter 39) for 367 AD, there is no order for monks to destroy heretical works contained in that letter.[1]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

In his 1821 play, Almansor, the German writer Heinrich Heine — referring to the burning of the Muslim holy book, the Qur'an, during the Spanish Inquisition — wrote, "Where they burn books, so too will they in the end burn human beings." ("Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen.")

Some supporters have celebrated book burning cases in art and other media. Such is the bas-relief by Giovanni Battista Maini of The Burning of Heretical Books over a side door on the façade of Santa Maria Maggiore, Rome, which depicts the burning of 'heretical' books as a triumph of righteousness.[2]

39 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:57:36am

Scriptural and religious considerations aside; Islam retains too many elements of a cargo cult. Even in wealthy or affluent countries like Saudi Arabia or Egypt they have little understanding of the environment in the West that is brought to them by Satellite TV or the internet. The problem is worse in insular poor countries like Afghanistan. The youth in Egypt were inspired by the freedom of information provided by the technology and open exchange of information. In places like Afghanistan information from the outside world is still too shocking and they don't know how to process it properly. Like it or not we are going to see more of this but it will eventually fade as they get used to seeing cartoons and blasphemy from the outside world.

40 bratwurst  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:57:49am

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

Count me as a primitivist then. Jones also talked about burning the Talmud, and I almost screamed.

Too much bad history with book burning. Too much.

As Heinrich Heine said:

"Dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen."

(Where they burn books, at the end they also burn people.)

41 laZardo  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:58:56am

1 AM, headan to bed. Nighty!

42 Chrysicat  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:59:18am

re: #35 Walter L. Newton

And I think we need to be very careful of what we say here,

because we wouldn't want to start another riot.

You're wrong...

Book Burning: A True Christian® Tradition

[Link: www.landoverbaptist.org...]

OK, that's it...I'll finally make my appearance with this one...You are aware that's a parody site, right?

(longtime lurker; finally managed to hit an open registration thread last summer; couldn't justify popping in before because I usually find that by the time I find a thread, the action is long-gone, or I just have nothing to contribute...which has hurt 'cause there've been a few times I at least wished I had dinging capability)

43 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 9:59:51am

re: #34 Rightwingconspirator

After re reading, I see it tells of what was done then. Where is the passage that says this must be repeated for all time and against all the religions apart from Christianity? Who gave Paul's authority to the rest of the Christians for all time?

It's a leap to claim this as a current call to actions.

Well... you have to have a total understanding of scripture and a overview of the various proclamations and saying available...

"Apostle Paul wrote, "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ" " (1 Corinthians 11:1)

That should do it.

44 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:00:45am

re: #42 Chrysicat

OK, that's it...I'll finally make my appearance with this one...You are aware that's a parody site, right?

(longtime lurker; finally managed to hit an open registration thread last summer; couldn't justify popping in before because I usually find that by the time I find a thread, the action is long-gone, or I just have nothing to contribute...which has hurt 'cause there've been a few times I at least wished I had dinging capability)

No I didn't, but my other links to wiki article on religious reasons for book burnings makes my point... good catch on your part.

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:00:55am

re: #35 Walter L. Newton

And I think we need to be very careful of what we say here,

because we wouldn't want to start another riot.

You're wrong...

Book Burning: A True Christian® Tradition

[Link: www.landoverbaptist.org...]

OK, Walter. I surrender. Book-burning is a genuine old Christian tradition, I have absolutely no grounds to criticize Jones' interpretation, and also, the Landover Baptists are the benchmark of American Christianity.

It is absolutely irrelevant that book-burning is advocated by no major Christian denomination in the Western World, plus, you are an expert on Christian groups, and no one should ever dare challenge your interpretation of scripture.

Now that we've established what a terrific Christian Terry Jones is...

46 chandsolo  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:02:01am

re: #42 Chrysicat

OK, that's it...I'll finally make my appearance with this one...You are aware that's a parody site, right?

(longtime lurker; finally managed to hit an open registration thread last summer; couldn't justify popping in before because I usually find that by the time I find a thread, the action is long-gone, or I just have nothing to contribute...which has hurt 'cause there've been a few times I at least wished I had dinging capability)

I'm sure Walter knows exactly what the link was.

47 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:02:03am

re: #42 Chrysicat

OK, that's it...I'll finally make my appearance with this one...You are aware that's a parody site, right?

(longtime lurker; finally managed to hit an open registration thread last summer; couldn't justify popping in before because I usually find that by the time I find a thread, the action is long-gone, or I just have nothing to contribute...which has hurt 'cause there've been a few times I at least wished I had dinging capability)

Now... are you telling me christians have no scriptural or historical admonitions to burn what they consider "pagan" material?

48 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:02:20am

re: #38 Walter L. Newton

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Walter, you didn't actually understand what I was saying, did you?

I know the history of Christians and burning books. Pretty fucking well.

49 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:02:27am

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, truly very sorry if I offend. But I did note you would scream. Not kill.So, I should back up a bit.

Only a primitivist would kill over the burning of a book. BTW, how could Jones possibly justify burning a Talmud with the passages in Acts as linked above? That shows how nutty and removed from scripture this guy really is.

Take notice of that Walter...

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:02:39am

re: #40 bratwurst

As Heinrich Heine said:

"Dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen."

(Where they burn books, at the end they also burn people.)

He was right.

51 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:02:48am

re: #46 chan

I'm sure Walter knows exactly what the link was.

No I didn't... I was looking for historical and topical information about christians and book burnings, and I didn't look close enough at that site.

52 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:03:30am

re: #48 SanFranciscoZionist

Walter, you didn't actually understand what I was saying, did you?

I know the history of Christians and burning books. Pretty fucking well.

Well... no then... you didn't make yourself very clear...

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:03:33am

re: #47 Walter L. Newton

Now... are you telling me christians have no scriptural or historical admonitions to burn what they consider "pagan" material?

No one said that.

54 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:04:00am

re: #42 Chrysicat

Welcome, hatchling.

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:04:31am

re: #49 Rightwingconspirator

Well, truly very sorry if I offend. But I did note you would scream. Not kill.So, I should back up a bit.

Only a primitivist would kill over the burning of a book. BTW, how could Jones possibly justify burning a Talmud with the passages in Acts as linked above? That shows how nutty and removed from scripture this guy really is.

Take notice of that Walter...

Oh, burning the Talmud has a long and ugly history in Christianity. The Talmud absolutely unnerved medieval Christians, for a variety of reasons.

56 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:04:31am

re: #48 SanFranciscoZionist

Walter, you didn't actually understand what I was saying, did you?

I know the history of Christians and burning books. Pretty fucking well.

Then why don't you tell us?

57 chandsolo  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:05:22am

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, I was being facetious. I respect your religious knowledge so I assumed you were on top of it.

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:05:37am

re: #52 Walter L. Newton

Well... no then... you didn't make yourself very clear...

Or, you were looking for something else, and saw it.

59 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:06:44am

re: #49 Rightwingconspirator

Well, truly very sorry if I offend. But I did note you would scream. Not kill.So, I should back up a bit.

Only a primitivist would kill over the burning of a book. BTW, how could Jones possibly justify burning a Talmud with the passages in Acts as linked above? That shows how nutty and removed from scripture this guy really is.

Take notice of that Walter...

I never implied this guy wasn't nutty, nor was I giving him any support... did I? But to ignore the various mindsets that are part of certain christians communities is dishonest.

I have gone to churches where book burning is a frequent and viable topic.

60 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:07:45am

re: #57 chan

Sorry, I was being facetious. I respect your religious knowledge so I assumed you were on top of it.

No... I made a mistake in my effort to find some references for my position. Sorry about that.

Looking back quickly over that site... that's a hoot.

61 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:07:53am

Burning books is repugnant. He should have used a shredder.

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:08:31am

re: #56 Walter L. Newton

Then why don't you tell us?

Why bother? I have no point to make with it, except that history is full of horrors, and Jones is apparently determined to drag us back in his own suburban, lackluster way.

63 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:08:46am

re: #61 SidewaysQuark

Burning books is repugnant. He should have used a shredder.

Clever... are you going to be playing this venue for the next few weeks... I have some monkeys that would love to come see your show.

64 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:09:30am

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

That tie in is subjective. One can take it to mean the lessons of Christ or a call to duplicate his every act. One can abuse scripture with hostile intent. That's what Terry Jones is doing. The very nature of that intent takes him away from scripture. Terry Jones is abusing scripture. That's why & how his crap is so fringe.

65 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:09:34am

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

Why bother? I have no point to make with it, except that history is full of horrors, and Jones is apparently determined to drag us back in his own suburban, lackluster way.

Agreed. One of many who are determined to drag us back in his own suburban, lackluster way. I wonder who is going to win?

66 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:11:56am

re: #64 Rightwingconspirator

That tie in is subjective. One can take it to mean the lessons of Christ or a call to duplicate his every act. One can abuse scripture with hostile intent. That's what Terry Jones is doing. The very nature of that intent takes him away from scripture. Terry Jones is abusing scripture. That's why & how his crap is so fringe.

Subjective of what?

67 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:12:03am

Okay my photo excursion today is a white sky blowout, so I'm off to some chores.

Be well one and all...

68 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:13:01am

re: #67 Rightwingconspirator

Okay my photo excursion today is a white sky blowout, so I'm off to some chores.

Be well one and all...

Take care.

69 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:13:09am

re: #64 Rightwingconspirator

That tie in is subjective. One can take it to mean the lessons of Christ or a call to duplicate his every act. One can abuse scripture with hostile intent. That's what Terry Jones is doing. The very nature of that intent takes him away from scripture. Terry Jones is abusing scripture. That's why & how his crap is so fringe.

Ok... this is NOT a parody site...

[Link: www.amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com...]

Get a clue.

70 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:14:37am

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

We will be serving fried chicken, and all the sides.


Sounds nice.

71 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:16:27am

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Sounds nice.

What... no marshmallows?

72 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:17:34am

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

Ok... this is NOT a parody site...

[Link: www.amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com...]

Get a clue.

One clue, in the ongoing rant...

Last of all, we would ask that whatever way you decide to get involved to please let us know. Simply by telling us who you are and which of the four ways you are going to participate. If you don’t want your name mention, the date of your event, then please let us know when you write. We would like to list all that are involved for the very fact the media, Bible perverts, the world and others think that we are the only people that believe that the KJB is the only Bible for the English speaking people. We would like to show the world that we are not the only church that stands for God’s Word. Even in our own county we didn’t have one person (outside our church members) or church to stand for God’s Word. The reason for this is because they just tote a KJB and use it, but they don’t believe it or willing to stand for it for the world to see. Paul tells us not to be ashamed of the Gospel. Neither should we be ashamed of the KJB that contains within its pages the Blessed Gospel. Are the preachers in this area ashamed that they carry a KJB? If one is not going to stand for the Bible what good does it do to carry one? The Bible tells us in these last days that there will be a turning from God’s Word which is Truth. The Bible calls these people Apostates that turn from the Truth, that deny His Word, and deny His name.

Shorter version: None of the rural Kentuckyites who don't belong to our tiny nutjob church would participate with us!! WE ARE NOT FRINGE!! WE ARE NOT FRINGE!! WE ARE RIGHT!!

73 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:17:42am

re: #42 Chrysicat

OK, that's it...I'll finally make my appearance with this one...You are aware that's a parody site, right?

(longtime lurker; finally managed to hit an open registration thread last summer; couldn't justify popping in before because I usually find that by the time I find a thread, the action is long-gone, or I just have nothing to contribute...which has hurt 'cause there've been a few times I at least wished I had dinging capability)

Welcome. It looks like we came in through the same window—it'll be one year tomorrow since we registered:

Chrysicat
Registered since: Apr 3, 2010 at 4:16 pm

CuriousLurker
Registered since: Apr 3, 2010 at 11:42 am

And with that I think I'll step away and make this an analog weekend...maybe bust out the acrylic paints, play with my new electronic die cutter, design something purely for fun...

74 jaunte  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:18:20am

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Another definitive statement from the site:

"A true scholar is one who believes the Bible (KJV) whether he understands it or not."
75 Chrysicat  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:19:47am

re: #73 CuriousLurker

Hadn't realized I'd been here that long...amazing that I couldn't find anything to say for a whole year...

76 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:19:47am

re: #73 CuriousLurker

Welcome. It looks like we came in through the same window—it'll be one year tomorrow since we registered:

Chrysicat
Registered since: Apr 3, 2010 at 4:16 pm

CuriousLurker
Registered since: Apr 3, 2010 at 11:42 am

And with that I think I'll step away and make this an analog weekend...maybe bust out the acrylic paints, play with my new electronic die cutter, design something purely for fun...

Happy Lizardversary! Two from the same nest! Some shells are thicker than others...

77 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:20:33am

It's easy to see how, over the years, that christians have found justification for burning what they considered pagan books and offensive material. My goodness, they even went as far as burning humans for offensives such as printing books (example... the bible in the vernacular) and woman and men they considered witches and warlocks. And they took care of some of those nasty Templars with a good barbecue.

Christian history is ripe with burnings of all sorts.

78 diamonda2u  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:20:45am

The verses in question, if one would read the verses prior to19, are talking about people who are new believers, burning the magic books they once believe in or practiced. It does not infer or command any Christian to go around burning books just because (ala Terry Jones). The verse infer they burned their books etc, as a show that they no longer believed in them or the practices.

79 blueraven  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:20:50am

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

Ok... this is NOT a parody site...

[Link: www.amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com...]

Get a clue.

It may not be parody, but it is hardly mainstream. It is a whack KJV fundamentalist site.

We will also be burning Satan's popular books written by heretics like Westcott & Hort , Bruce Metzger, Billy Graham , Rick Warren , Bill Hybels , John McArthur, James Dobson , Charles Swindoll , John Piper , Chuck Colson , Tony Evans, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swagart , Mark Driskol, Franklin Graham , Bill Bright, Tim Lahaye, Paula White , T.D. Jakes, Benny Hinn , Joyce Myers , Brian McLaren , James White, Robert Schuller, Mother Teresa , The Pope , Rob Bell, Erwin McManus , Donald Miller, Shane Claiborne, Brennan Manning, William Young, Will Graham , and many more.

Pretty extreme.

80 dragonfire1981  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:20:59am

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

It might not be a parody site but it is one of the ugliest and most poorly designed websites I've ever seen.

Though I am sure there are worse out there.

81 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:21:08am

re: #75 Chrysicat

Hadn't realized I'd been here that long...amazing that I couldn't find anything to say for a whole year...

So folks would wish that on me... :)

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:21:38am

re: #75 Chrysicat

Hadn't realized I'd been here that long...amazing that I couldn't find anything to say for a whole year...

It's like the kid who doesn't talk until he's six--the parents are desperate, try everything--one night, he says, over dinner, "I hate spinach."

The parents are ecstatic. "You can talk! Why didn't you ever speak before?"

"Everything was OK until the spinach," the kid says.

83 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:22:25am

re: #75 Chrysicat

Hadn't realized I'd been here that long...amazing that I couldn't find anything to say for a whole year...

Well, I've been babbling pretty much non-stop. I'm sure some folks wish I'd just stuff a sock in it for a while, heh.

re: #76 wrenchwench

Happy Lizardversary! Two from the same nest! Some shells are thicker than others...

Thanks! It seems like a lot longer than one year. ;o)

84 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:22:59am

re: #80 dragonfire1981

It might not be a parody site but it is one of the ugliest and most poorly designed websites I've ever seen.

Though I am sure there are worse out there.

Many. This has the look of something the pastor put together himself with very limited knowledge of website design.

Probably everyone who might be able to help him improve it is considered to be of the devil. It's always a problem.

85 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:23:23am

re: #78 diamonda2u

The verses in question, if one would read the verses prior to19, are talking about people who are new believers, burning the magic books they once believe in or practiced. It does not infer or command any Christian to go around burning books just because (ala Terry Jones). The verse infer they burned their books etc, as a show that they no longer believed in them or the practices.

Are you going to deny that this scripture, this chapter, has been used as validation by certain christians to burn books?

86 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:23:31am

re: #20 laZardo

Oh, that. I meant there a lot of modern Christians who would say their beliefs promote harmony and acceptance. That it's the New Testament they're living by, "love thy neighbor" and all.

And that always cracks me up. Yeah sure, the NT is all sunshine, lollypops, and puppydogs. Proof that even "liberal" religious individuals can ignore the parts of their religion they don't like.

87 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:24:27am

re: #83 CuriousLurker

Well, I've been babbling pretty much non-stop. I'm sure some folks wish I'd just stuff a sock in it for a while, heh.

Not a sock, for heaven's sake. Maybe a t-shirt, or a tennis ball, but no socks, please.

88 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:24:28am

re: #86 prononymous

And that always cracks me up. Yeah sure, the NT is all sunshine, lollypops, and puppydogs. Proof that even "liberal" religious individuals can ignore the parts of their religion they don't like.

Agreed... see re: #21 Walter L. Newton

89 dragonfire1981  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:26:04am

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

Walter, not a direct response to your comment here, but a reply to something you posted yesterday about people who talk about the Bible as if they know every last thing about it when in reality they don't have a clue.

This drives me insane too, even moreso when as a Christian I see it in my CHURCH all the time. If you're a Christian and you know squat about the Bible...then what's the point?

90 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:26:05am

re: #87 wrenchwench

Not a sock, for heaven's sake. Maybe a t-shirt, or a tennis ball, but no socks, please.

Oh, ewww! I just realized what I said. NO SOCKS! *gag*

91 BenghaziHoops  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:30:48am

`Very well Said Charles...You have staked out a lucid and sensible position...That's why the wingnuts don't get it..

92 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:32:26am

re: #89 dragonfire1981

Walter, not a direct response to your comment here, but a reply to something you posted yesterday about people who talk about the Bible as if they know every last thing about it when in reality they don't have a clue.

This drives me insane too, even moreso when as a Christian I see it in my CHURCH all the time. If you're a Christian and you know squat about the Bible...then what's the point?

And I make mistakes too. As I did on that link above and in my understating the other day on a point prononymous was trying to make.

93 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:34:32am

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

understating = understanding (PIMF)

94 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:35:42am

re: #5 beartiger

He was at least being consistent with his faith.

So? Consistency is not a virtue in and of itself.

95 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:36:49am

re: #6 Walter L. Newton

How about flags?

A flag is a chunk of cloth and can be used as kindling or a symbol.

96 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:37:50am

Hey all,

I really don't understand book burning.

I mean, if you don't want it, sell it on e-bay or donate it and take the write-off.

But burning? Unless you are really desperate for heat.

How is everyone?

97 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:38:40am

re: #95 b_sharp

A flag is a chunk of cloth and can be used as kindling or a symbol.

Good answer... but I was wondering what beartiger thought.

98 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:39:15am

couldn't book burning in this case be an act of instigation or even terrorism?

Like yelling fire in a burning theatre?

I think this idiot knew the probably outcome and burned the book knowing people would be injured or killed.

99 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:42:45am

re: #14 Rightwingconspirator

What is the life expectancy of a non Islamic but very religious person or group in Afghanistan?

Seems to me only a primitivist would see the book itself as holy, rather than the lessons it contains. Only a primitivist would forget we can print the holy books as fast as our machines can run.

For some reason people worship the symbol as much or more than the symbolized.

100 BenghaziHoops  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:43:59am

re: #95 b_sharp

A flag is a chunk of cloth and can be used as kindling or a symbol.

I see our flag as a symbol of the hundreds of thousands that have gave the full measure of themselves for our freedom..Those that fought for civil rights for every American...I could go on but it means a lot to me

101 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:44:43am

re: #99 b_sharp

For some reason people worship the symbol as much or more than the symbolized.

I think they see it as a gesture of "respect". I see it as idolatry.

102 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:44:50am

re: #89 dragonfire1981

Walter, not a direct response to your comment here, but a reply to something you posted yesterday about people who talk about the Bible as if they know every last thing about it when in reality they don't have a clue.

This drives me insane too, even moreso when as a Christian I see it in my CHURCH all the time. If you're a Christian and you know squat about the Bible...then what's the point?

Yeah, this really drives me insane. If someone hasn't read their holy book at least once all the way through, how could they be sure they are following its precepts? Unfortunately, I run into it all the time when debating theism and it really kills the discussion and my faith in humanity.

I have read the Bible, among other holy books, a few times, and I certainly don't remember it all nor claim to understand it perfectly. But at least I'm trying, and I'm an atheist. If you don't even make an effort, then what's the point of being a member of a religion? To get invited to the social events?

103 allegro  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:46:04am

re: #98 ggt

I think this idiot knew the probably outcome and burned the book knowing people would be injured or killed.

I suspect you give him too much credit. I have little doubt he's just thrilled with the outcome cuz it makes him feel like such a big influential dude, but I imagine his motivation was simply to get attention. It worked for him last Sept and he wanted another 15 minutes.

104 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:46:30am

re: #102 prononymous

Yeah, this really drives me insane. If someone hasn't read their holy book at least once all the way through, how could they be sure they are following its precepts? Unfortunately, I run into it all the time when debating theism and it really kills the discussion and my faith in humanity.

I have read the Bible, among other holy books, a few times, and I certainly don't remember it all nor claim to understand it perfectly. But at least I'm trying, and I'm an atheist. If you don't even make an effort, then what's the point of being a member of a religion? To get invited to the social events?

Yeah, basically. Or because your Mom and now your spouse make you do it.

Most people, I am learning, don't think deep thoughts. They don't wanna think deep thoughts. They just want to get home, eat dinner and relax before they have another day of worries.

105 BenghaziHoops  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:46:59am

re: #102 prononymous

Yeah, this really drives me insane. If someone hasn't read their holy book at least once all the way through, how could they be sure they are following its precepts? Unfortunately, I run into it all the time when debating theism and it really kills the discussion and my faith in humanity.

I have read the Bible, among other holy books, a few times, and I certainly don't remember it all nor claim to understand it perfectly. But at least I'm trying, and I'm an atheist. If you don't even make an effort, then what's the point of being a member of a religion? To get invited to the social events?

You don't need to be a biblical scholar to live a righteous life and love God in your Heart

106 allegro  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:47:12am

re: #102 prononymous

If someone hasn't read their holy book at least once all the way through, how could they be sure they are following its precepts?

That's what they pay the preacher for.

107 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:48:08am

re: #104 ggt

Yeah, basically. Or because your Mom and now your spouse make you do it.

Most people, I am learning, don't think deep thoughts. They don't wanna think deep thoughts. They just want to get home, eat dinner and relax before they have another day of worries.

And on that point... I have an overnight shift tonight, so... I think a good 8 hours in bed is called for... night all.

108 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:48:25am

re: #103 allegro

I suspect you give him too much credit. I have little doubt he's just thrilled with the outcome cuz it makes him feel like such a big influential dude, but I imagine his motivation was simply to get attention. It worked for him last Sept and he wanted another 15 minutes.

I think he likes the idea that there might be one or two less muslims because of the riots--that he provoked.

Seriously bad mojo, IMHO.

Objectifying individuals based on the fact that they are non-Christian. No credit for being one of the People of the Book.

WWJD? obviously Jones has no clue.

109 BenghaziHoops  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:48:40am

re: #107 Walter L. Newton

And on that point... I have an overnight shift tonight, so... I think a good 8 hours in bed is called for... night all.

Sweet dreams

110 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:49:15am

re: #105 HoosierHoops

You don't need to be a biblical scholar to live a righteous life and love God in your Heart

What does being a scholar have anything to do with reading the book? Am I a "Feast for Crows" scholar because I'm currently reading that again?

111 jaunte  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:50:37am

re: #98 ggt

His church members may just be coming to understand the danger he may have put them in.

Some church members were surprised by the violent reaction in Afghanistan on Friday, said Fran Ingram, an assistant at the church. She explained that it was decided in the weeks leading up to the burning that a jury of churchgoers and volunteers would hear both sides before deciding what to do.
..................

Some members of the Dove World Outreach Center said they feared they would be attacked.

“We have a huge stack of death threats,” Ms. Ingram said. “We take precautions. I have a handgun. A lot of us have concealed weapons permits. We’re a small church, and we don’t have money to hire security.” [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

112 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:51:57am

re: #100 HoosierHoops

I see our flag as a symbol of the hundreds of thousands that have gave the full measure of themselves for our freedom..Those that fought for civil rights for every American...I could go on but it means a lot to me

Burning, or damaging a flag in any other way does nothing to those thousands of sacrifices or your memory of those sacrifices. The symbol is not the symbolized.

Those people who gave their time, their blood and even their lives did not do so for the flag, they did it for the people who shared the same values.

113 BenghaziHoops  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:51:57am

re: #110 prononymous

What does being a scholar have anything to do with reading the book? Am I a "Feast for Crows" scholar because I'm currently reading that again?

Maybe I didn't address that right..Some Christians think the more they know the holier they are...
Regards

114 allegro  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:52:22am

re: #111 jaunte

Some members of the Dove World Outreach Center said they feared they would be attacked.

“We have a huge stack of death threats,” Ms. Ingram said. “We take precautions. I have a handgun. A lot of us have concealed weapons permits. We’re a small church, and we don’t have money to hire security.” [Link: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]...]

ZOMG!!! There are CONSEQUENCES for being bigoted, hateful assholes? Who knew??

115 jaunte  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:54:02am

re: #114 allegro

It's kind of sad that she thinks setting up a mock 'jury trial' makes things better.

116 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:54:41am

re: #103 allegro

I suspect you give him too much credit. I have little doubt he's just thrilled with the outcome cuz it makes him feel like such a big influential dude, but I imagine his motivation was simply to get attention. It worked for him last Sept and he wanted another 15 minutes.

Actually, no -- he absolutely did know this was a likely result. He was warned about it by the Secretary of Defense. General Petraeus made a statement about it too.

He did know what would happen, and he got exactly what he wanted.

117 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:55:02am

re: #113 HoosierHoops

Maybe I didn't address that right..Some Christians think the more they know the holier they are...
Regards

"Some Animals are More Equal than Others"

118 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:55:55am

re: #113 HoosierHoops

Maybe I didn't address that right..Some Christians think the more they know the holier they are...
Regards

Ok. I suppose I'm not really following your point. I'm not sure how that really has anything to do with what I was saying.

119 BenghaziHoops  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:56:02am

re: #112 b_sharp

Burning, or damaging a flag in any other way does nothing to those thousands of sacrifices or your memory of those sacrifices. The symbol is not the symbolized.

Those people who gave their time, their blood and even their lives did not do so for the flag, they did it for the people who shared the same values.

The first 4 words of my post said..I see our flag
Others see it different I'm sure..some as a means of political protest..Whatever...This is my personal experience

120 BenghaziHoops  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:57:10am

re: #118 prononymous

Ok. I suppose I'm not really following your point. I'm not sure how that really has anything to do with what I was saying.

Sparked a thought..That's all

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:57:10am

re: #94 b_sharp

So? Consistency is not a virtue in and of itself.

Hobgoblin of small minds.

122 BongCrodny  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:58:00am

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

Ok... this is NOT a parody site...

[Link: www.amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com...]

Get a clue.


Words cannot adequately express how much I love this part:

We will also be burning Satan's popular books written by heretics like Westcott & Hort, Bruce Metzger, Billy Graham, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, John McArthur, James Dobson, Charles Swindoll, John Piper , Chuck Colson, Tony Evans, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swagart, Mark Driskol, Franklin Graham, Bill Bright, Tim Lahaye, Paula White, T.D. Jakes, Benny Hinn, Joyce Myers, Brian McLaren, James White, Robert Schuller, Mother Teresa, The Pope, Rob Bell, Erwin McManus, Donald Miller, Shane Claiborne, Brennan Manning, William Young, Will Graham , and many more.

We will be serving fried chicken, and all the sides.

123 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:58:39am

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

Hobgoblin of small minds.

So, you've been peeking into my mind have you? Did my wife show you what's in there?

124 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:58:40am

re: #122 BongCrodny

Words cannot adequately express how much I love this part:

Benny Hinn?

125 allegro  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 10:59:01am

re: #116 Charles

Actually, no -- he absolutely did know this was a likely result. He was warned about it by the Secretary of Defense. General Petraeus made a statement about it too.

He did know what would happen, and he got exactly what he wanted.

Ah, good point. He just doesn't at all impress me as a guy who has a clue of a world outside of his tiny church of deluded and ignorant followers. The shock of his church assistant that people are genuinely pissed off at them is telling.

126 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:00:16am

re: #122 BongCrodny

Words cannot adequately express how much I love this part:

Mother Theresa?

These people are Uber-Whacko™

127 BongCrodny  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:03:42am

re: #124 ggt

Benny Hinn?

I'm a chicken man, myself.

128 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:04:36am

God damn it.

Petraeus warned him.

129 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:06:08am

re: #128 Obdicut

God damn it.

Petraeus warned him.

Yeah, I think I'd pay attention.

130 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:07:10am

Someone, somewhere, was bound to burn a Koran, or flush one; too bad the two events could not have happened simultaneously, and cancelled each other out.

131 BongCrodny  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:08:25am

More awesomeness from that Amazing Grace website Walter linked to:

I am not saying that these people are going to hell because of things they have done. They will go to hell if they don't accept Christ as their Saviour before they die.

Bon Jovi
Britney Spears
Bruce Springsteen
Chad Kroeger
Eddie Van Halen
Elvis Presley
Jesus is King not Elvis (Sermon by J. Harold Smith)
Kid Rock
Pete Doherty
Richie Sambora
Rod Stewart
Ron Wood
Scott Weiland
Steven Page
Steven Tyler

I'm thinking it might be a bit difficult at this stage for Elvis to repent.

132 Gus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:08:29am

The burning of the Koran by Terry Jones has become a catalyst for the animosity felt by the people of Afghanistan towards the American occupation of their country for the past 10 years. It could be seen as the proverbial straw that broke the camels back if at least with a significant portion of the people in Afghanistan.

They see this act by Jones as being representational of America's attitudes towards their religion but most importantly, their culture and heritage. If Jones does not represents the attitudes of the majority of American he certainly represent the attitudes of a significant segment of American society who are not only antagonistic if not hostile towards Muslims on foreign soil but American Muslims.

Combined with the Koran burning we also have the recent congressional hearing on "Muslim" led by Rep. Peter King. We also have the continuing drumbeat from the likes of Fox News; Pam Geller and her cadre of SIOA; Bob Spencer; Frank Gafney; and the countless statements from members of the official Republican Party.

When Mr. Jones burned the Koran he effectively became the voice of Americans in the eyes of the people of Afghanistan. In many ways, he is.

133 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:09:26am

re: #100 HoosierHoops

It is all we have left of some people, my uncle Jim for instance.

134 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:09:28am

A comment at Jim Hoft's hate site:

Mark1957 commented:

There is no such thing as a moderate muslim, only those who commit atrocities like this and those that keep their mouths shut when atrocities happen. The only good muslim is a dead one.

135 BenghaziHoops  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:09:59am

re: #128 Obdicut

God damn it.

Petraeus warned him.

I'll never forget standing in the kitchen with my son ready to deploy to Iraq talking and he said they had been trained that the only way to win this war was to win the hearts and minds of the people...you do not win their hearts burning their most Holy Book

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:10:15am

re: #96 ggt

Hey all,

I really don't understand book burning.

I mean, if you don't want it, sell it on e-bay or donate it and take the write-off.

But burning? Unless you are really desperate for heat.

How is everyone?

Pretty good. Staying on track with my new workout plan, so I'm pleased with me.

Book burning is appealing for a lot of reasons. It's a spectacle. Nothing brings humans together like building a big fire and throwing stuff into it, as everyone from Og through the Nazis (and Terry Jones), has discovered.

It's also symbolically cleansing, both of the evils in the books, and of the people who sacrifice their own impure texts and such. Botticelli threw his own canvases on Savonarola's fires. People bring their Rick Warren books and their Amy Grant tapes to things like this book-burning in Kentucky, and feel cleansed.

And if you gave it to Goodwill, someone else might read this filth, so that's not OK.

;)

137 jaunte  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:11:39am

re: #135 HoosierHoops

Terry Jones doesn't care about our soldiers, or UN staff, or anything but his own ego.

138 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:11:54am

re: #130 Ojoe

Someone, somewhere, was bound to burn a Koran, or flush one; too bad the two events could not have happened simultaneously, and cancelled each other out.

PZ 'desecrated' a page from one a few years ago, along with a Eucharist biscuit and a page from Origin of Species.

139 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:13:27am

re: #134 Charles

A comment at Jim Hoft's hate site:

Mark1957 commented:

There is no such thing as a moderate muslim, only those who commit atrocities like this and those that keep their mouths shut when atrocities happen. The only good muslim is a dead one.

We have one of those.

Mark1957

Karma: 90
Registered since: Nov 12, 2005 at 3:46 pm

No. of comments posted: 472
No. of links posted: 0
Recent comments

140 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:13:39am

re: #135 HoosierHoops

Or by saying you'd never employ one in the government.

In the end, the extremism of Islam in Afghanistan has always been a long shot for us to be able to overcome. Things like this, and the general "We hate Islam" attitude so many people in the West have, makes it nearly impossible.

141 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:13:39am

re: #134 Charles

A comment at Jim Hoft's hate site:

The only good bigot is a dead bigot.

142 Varek Raith  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:14:01am

re: #139 wrenchwench

We have one of those.

Busted.
;)

143 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:14:19am

Good lord. I almost can't believe the comments being posted at Hoft's site.

ar05075 commented:

Islaminals don’t need an excuse to murder, they’re disgusting vermin and ALL of them should be shot on site. Everywhere and anywhere. Now, I’ve got to get back to my bonfire of the rag book.

144 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:14:28am

re: #134 Charles

A comment at Jim Hoft's hate site:

Lovely. We are back to post 9-11 shock and outrage.

We are coming up on 10 years folks. There hasn't been another 9-11 type attack. Partially do to the work the FBI and other federal agencies have done and partially because MOST OF US ARE PAST THE SHOCK AND OUTRAGE.

We know that there are American's who are wonderful citizens and good people.

145 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:14:43am

re: #142 Varek Raith

Totally OT, this is for you:

Image: NcJwy.jpg

146 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:15:14am

It just feels really weird to have conservatives try and ignore/minimize actions that someone took knowing would result in the deaths of soldiers and civilians. And liberals supporting a war effort.

The past ~4 years has felt like some crazy alternate reality that I can't escape from.

147 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:15:36am

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

Pretty good. Staying on track with my new workout plan, so I'm pleased with me.

Book burning is appealing for a lot of reasons. It's a spectacle. Nothing brings humans together like building a big fire and throwing stuff into it, as everyone from Og through the Nazis (and Terry Jones), has discovered.

It's also symbolically cleansing, both of the evils in the books, and of the people who sacrifice their own impure texts and such. Botticelli threw his own canvases on Savonarola's fires. People bring their Rick Warren books and their Amy Grant tapes to things like this book-burning in Kentucky, and feel cleansed.

And if you gave it to Goodwill, someone else might read this filth, so that's not OK.

;)

In RC elementary school, I was taught that things were THINGS.

I like to make money on things, or at least know they were usefully recycled.

148 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:15:44am

re: #98 ggt

couldn't book burning in this case be an act of instigation or even terrorism?

Like yelling fire in a burning theatre?

I think this idiot knew the probably outcome and burned the book knowing people would be injured or killed.

The 'fire in a theater' test is based on the idea that it will cause immediate panic, and hence, probable injury or death.

I do not think there's any positive way to extend control on someone's First Amendment rights to the extent that they can't do something legal that might piss off someone seven thousand miles away, and cause them to commit a crime.

And yes, I think that Jones probably knew what the result would be, unless he thought everyone who told him what the result would be was lying to him. And yes, I think that blood is on his hands, in some degree, as well as on the hand of those who actually took lives.

But I think God, rather than a U.S. court, is going to have to judge that sort of thing. We can't restrict speech on the grounds that people will kill over it.

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:16:11am

re: #99 b_sharp

For some reason people worship the symbol as much or more than the symbolized.

That's how symbols work. They are concrete expressions of ideas that are hard for us to grasp all at once.

150 Varek Raith  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:16:30am

re: #145 Obdicut

Totally OT, this is for you:

Image: NcJwy.jpg

Lol.
It's funny cause it's true!
:)

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:16:44am

re: #101 ggt

I think they see it as a gesture of "respect". I see it as idolatry.

It can be, especially if you refuse to actually separate the symbol from the concept in your mind.

152 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:16:56am

re: #137 jaunte

Terry Jones doesn't care about our soldiers, or UN staff, or anything but his own ego.

It's his immortal soul, and the souls of his followers that concerns him.

And you can donate to help him in his good work . . . .

//////

153 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:17:18am

re: #140 Obdicut

Oh yeah it's impossible. I think the best move would be for us to isolate ourselves from it in as many ways as we can, and just let it fizz along on its own. If they can't fight us, they will probably fight each other.

154 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:18:43am

re: #146 prononymous

It just feels really weird to have conservatives try and ignore/minimize actions that someone took knowing would result in the deaths of soldiers and civilians. And liberals supporting a war effort.

The past ~4 years has felt like some crazy alternate reality that I can't escape from.

Brave New World evokes a lot of cognitive dissonance.

I, myself, have difficulty.

155 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:19:02am

re: #112 b_sharp

Burning, or damaging a flag in any other way does nothing to those thousands of sacrifices or your memory of those sacrifices. The symbol is not the symbolized.

Those people who gave their time, their blood and even their lives did not do so for the flag, they did it for the people who shared the same values.

True, but someone who burns the flag is also making a symbolic statement, and that's what people respond to. No one just casually sets fire to a flag for no special reason.

(Although my mother did once almost set fire to a (very small) Soviet flag at a dinner. There were candles on the table, and her friends were egging her on. And I think she'd had a couple of sips of wine.)

156 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:19:21am

re: #144 ggt

And, in fact, during that entire time we've been engaging in military missions in Muslim lands. And many of the Islamacists who hate the US, who really do hate us for our freedoms, use our presence there as a rallying cry, claiming that we're there engaged in a war against Islam. And it's very hard to explain to people who do not have a background of Western enlightenment principles why it serves society better to let this asshole burn the Koran than it does to forbid such an action. It's a long, complex conversation, and it's really hard to get across while members of the GOP are holding hearings on Muslims, when Ann Coulter and others put it in terms of a religious war.

Support for our mission in Afghanistan means supporting the US's stance of secular tolerance. The GOP, and far too many on the right, have totally failed in this.

157 jaunte  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:19:30am

re: #152 ggt

Here's why I say it's only about his ego:

“It is not that we burn the Koran with some type of vindictive motive,” Mr. Jones said. “We do not even burn it with great pleasure or any pleasure at all. We burn it because we feel a deep obligation to stay with the court system of America. The court system of America does not allow convicted criminals to go free. And that is why we feel obligated to do this.”
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]


The Jones Court of America rules: 'Guilty.'

158 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:20:07am

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

The 'fire in a theater' test is based on the idea that it will cause immediate panic, and hence, probable injury or death.

I do not think there's any positive way to extend control on someone's First Amendment rights to the extent that they can't do something legal that might piss off someone seven thousand miles away, and cause them to commit a crime.

And yes, I think that Jones probably knew what the result would be, unless he thought everyone who told him what the result would be was lying to him. And yes, I think that blood is on his hands, in some degree, as well as on the hand of those who actually took lives.

But I think God, rather than a U.S. court, is going to have to judge that sort of thing. We can't restrict speech on the grounds that people will kill over it.

If he evoked a riot domestically?

It would be difficult to prosecute him for a riot on foreign land, I understand that.

I think he might get his come-uppance in the Court of Public Opinion.

159 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:20:51am

UN launches investigation into Afghanistan murders

Eyewitnesses said armed Afghan riot police watched passively as a mob overran the compound.

Seven UN employees were killed, including four Gurkha guards and three international officials. One police chief said two of the victims had been beheaded, while other reports said some had had their throats slit with knives or been shot in the head.

Attack on UN office in Mazar i Sharif after burned Quran by pastor Terry Jones

Liveleak Video

The police appear to be part of the mob. They do fire into the air but it seems more as part of the celebration rather than warning shots.

160 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:21:15am

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

That's how symbols work. They are concrete expressions of ideas that are hard for us to grasp all at once.

That is true, but it isn't a reason to conflate the two to the extent of massive outrage if the symbol is attacked.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, nor that it's not a fundamental part of human nature, I'm saying we should be beyond it.

161 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:21:30am

re: #124 ggt

Benny Hinn?

I deeply apologize to anyone who is offended by this. I find it incredibly funny.

I find Hinn fascinating. This throwing chi thing that he does, or whatever he calls it, is wildly interesting to watch.

162 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:22:36am

re: #156 Obdicut

And, in fact, during that entire time we've been engaging in military missions in Muslim lands. And many of the Islamacists who hate the US, who really do hate us for our freedoms, use our presence there as a rallying cry, claiming that we're there engaged in a war against Islam. And it's very hard to explain to people who do not have a background of Western enlightenment principles why it serves society better to let this asshole burn the Koran than it does to forbid such an action. It's a long, complex conversation, and it's really hard to get across while members of the GOP are holding hearings on Muslims, when Ann Coulter and others put it in terms of a religious war.

Support for our mission in Afghanistan means supporting the US's stance of secular tolerance. The GOP, and far too many on the right, have totally failed in this.

And how are the women of the ME ever going to be treated like humans if we don't?

GOP is losing on all counts this election.

163 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:23:32am

re: #161 SanFranciscoZionist

I deeply apologize to anyone who is offended by this. I find it incredibly funny.

I find Hinn fascinating. This throwing chi thing that he does, or whatever he calls it, is wildly interesting to watch.

groupthink?

164 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:23:33am

re: #153 Ojoe

Oh yeah it's impossible. I think the best move would be for us to isolate ourselves from it in as many ways as we can, and just let it fizz along on its own. If they can't fight us, they will probably fight each other.

Surround the US with a deadly radioactive 10Km tall plasticrete wall.

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:24:48am

re: #131 BongCrodny

More awesomeness from that Amazing Grace website Walter linked to:

I'm thinking it might be a bit difficult at this stage for Elvis to repent.

Well, that's a complicated theological issue.

166 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:25:07am

re: #164 b_sharp

Surround the US with a deadly radioactive 10Km tall plasticrete wall.

At least building that would create jobs. /

167 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:25:18am

re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that's a complicated theological issue.

Well, he could still be in Limbo.

168 Varek Raith  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:25:29am

re: #164 b_sharp

Surround the US with a deadly radioactive 10Km tall plasticrete wall.

And lasers.
And sharks.
And, well, you see where I'm going...

169 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:26:01am

If the real Amazing Grace hymm get's a bad wrap and becomes non-PC over this guy, I'm going to be really pissed.

I love that song.

170 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:26:31am

re: #168 Varek Raith

And lasers.
And sharks.
And, well, you see where I'm going...

no tigers and bears?

171 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:26:40am

re: #168 Varek Raith

And lasers.
And sharks.
And, well, you see where I'm going...

And sharks with frikkin' lasers on their heads.

172 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:26:49am

re: #167 ggt

Well, he could still be in Limbo.

How low can you go?

173 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:27:49am

re: #172 Ojoe

How low can you go?

How low can you go?

/;)

174 Gus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:28:16am

re: #159 Killgore Trout

UN launches investigation into Afghanistan murders

Attack on UN office in Mazar i Sharif after burned Quran by pastor Terry Jones

[Video]The police appear to be part of the mob. They do fire into the air but it seems more as part of the celebration rather than warning shots.

See, the fact that the police is part of the mob should tell us something. All the king's horses and all the kings men -- 6 billions dollars a month down the drain. To win the "heart and minds" of the people of Afghanistan while we have Terry Jones, Peter King, sniper scopes with Biblical inscriptions; collateral damage flippancy; and the "Kill Team".

175 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:28:16am

I have to give the puppy a bath.

Have a great day all!

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:29:16am

re: #138 b_sharp

PZ 'desecrated' a page from one a few years ago, along with a Eucharist biscuit and a page from Origin of Species.

Did the Darwinists riot?

One of these things is not like the others...

177 Varek Raith  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:29:54am

re: #176 SanFranciscoZionist

Did the Darwinists riot?

One of these things is not like the others...

Feces were thrown.
///

178 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:30:20am

I see there are a number of ex-lizards at Hoft's site. One looks reasonable (as he often did here), one has a blogspot site with "lgfonevolution" in the URL, but has "bible" in the name and is a typical stalker site.

179 Gus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:30:28am

Terry Jones "Propaganda War" Scorecard:

Taliban: 1
USA: 0

180 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:30:30am

re: #173 ggt

Not too low, I'm a geezer.

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:31:02am

re: #147 ggt

In RC elementary school, I was taught that things were THINGS.

I like to make money on things, or at least know they were usefully recycled.

Which is a good thing.

But would you, say, casually donate The Turner Diaries to Goodwill?

I don't know as I'd burn it, but I wouldn't let it out into the world on its own.

182 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:31:10am

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

Ok... this is NOT a parody site...

[Link: www.amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com...]

Get a clue.

Oh look! Another fundie fringe church got the intent wrong again. What a surprise. (Not)

183 Gus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:31:26am

re: #176 SanFranciscoZionist

Did the Darwinists riot?

One of these things is not like the others...

That's true. The Darwinists aren't under occupation in Greater Darwin.

184 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:32:03am

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

Some books, it were better had they never been written.

185 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:33:04am

re: #143 Charles

Good lord. I almost can't believe the comments being posted at Hoft's site.

ar05075 commented:

Islaminals don’t need an excuse to murder, they’re disgusting vermin and ALL of them should be shot on site. Everywhere and anywhere. Now, I’ve got to get back to my bonfire of the rag book.

I would have thought a sick fuck like that would prefer to go off site for that kind of disgusting thing. Unless of course that sick fuck is planning on building nazi-style concentration camps.

186 lostlakehiker  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:33:17am

re: #174 Gus 802

See, the fact that the police is part of the mob should tell us something. All the king's horses and all the kings men -- 6 billions dollars a month down the drain. To win the "heart and minds" of the people of Afghanistan while we have Terry Jones, Peter King, sniper scopes with Biblical inscriptions; collateral damage flippancy; and the "Kill Team".

We will always have eccentrics, fools, and knaves, mixed in with a remarkably high fraction of good folk. No nation is peopled by angels. If the project required that, it was doomed from the start.

187 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:34:18am

re: #157 jaunte

Here's why I say it's only about his ego:


The Jones Court of America rules: 'Guilty.'

Huh? How did the court system get into this?

188 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:34:39am

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

Which is a good thing.

But would you, say, casually donate The Turner Diaries to Goodwill?

I don't know as I'd burn it, but I wouldn't let it out into the world on its own.

A local used junk store had a copy of "The Protocols..." on a shelf for $10. I couldn't decide what to do. I hid it behind a bunch of other books.

189 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:36:02am

I'm on board with this reaction to the Koran-burning.

so.....

As much as I think that cartoonists should certainly have the right to draw whatever cartoons they want, and as much as I find it abhorrent that anyone would commit violence because their religious icons were negatively portrayed in a cartoon - I also hold at least some of the Danish cartoonists involved responsible for the violence that ensued because some of the cartoons were drawn to be deliberately provocative.

Is there some distinction between the Koran burning and the cartoons that I'm missing?

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:37:17am

re: #158 ggt

If he evoked a riot domestically?

It would be difficult to prosecute him for a riot on foreign land, I understand that.

I think he might get his come-uppance in the Court of Public Opinion.

I think, once again, there's a real distinction between yelling "Lynch 'im, boys!" to an assembled mob, and doing something like this which then leads to other people behaving violently.

If he (God forbid) burned the Talmud and the JDL responded by bombing something, is he legally liable for that? If I write an article denouncing the EDL and they respond by beating up old Muslim ladies in the street, am I responsible?

There's a difference between incitement and pissing people off, legally speaking.

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:39:26am

re: #163 ggt

groupthink?

Probably. A heightened state of awareness, religious ecstasy--some sort of group experience.

I remember a while ago, some big 'Christian rave' came to town, and one of the local pastors said he wasn't crazy about them. Said he thinks the kids get all worked up on the energy of the crowd, "and they think that's the Holy Spirit".

I'm not sure what I think about that, but it sure is interesting.

192 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:39:41am

re: #164 b_sharp

Surround the US with a deadly radioactive 10Km tall plasticrete wall.

How much do those cost?

193 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:39:55am

re: #189 Talking Point Detective

I'm on board with this reaction to the Koran-burning.

so...

As much as I think that cartoonists should certainly have the right to draw whatever cartoons they want, and as much as I find it abhorrent that anyone would commit violence because their religious icons were negatively portrayed in a cartoon - I also hold at least some of the Danish cartoonists involved responsible for the violence that ensued because some of the cartoons were drawn to be deliberately provocative.

Is there some distinction between the Koran burning and the cartoons that I'm missing?

Yes, I think there is a big distinction. First, those cartoons were not uniformly negative about Islam -- several of them made positive statements. Political cartoons are much easier to see as a valid expression of free speech.

Burning a religion's holy book is a very different thing. The only reason to do it is as an expression of hatred. It doesn't make any point aside from this. It's not criticism. It's intended only to insult and degrade.

Both of these things are protected by the US constitution as they should be. But burning books is NOT the same as drawing political cartoons.

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:41:45am

re: #182 Rightwingconspirator

Oh look! Another fundie fringe church got the intent wrong again. What a surprise. (Not)

If there were any disappointments, it was that there were no other Independent Fundamental Baptist churches or individuals standing with us locally on the KJV. They hook up with the Southern Baptist and the Freewill Baptist to fight the liquor crowd, and the abortionist, but will not stand with the KJV, the Word of God. Next year we will have others standing with us, as you will see. We have heard from hundreds of churches and individuals from around the world that will be happy to do the same thing next year.

195 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:43:04am

First chores done, Truck is clean and new headlights bought.

So-Also in response to comment #69-"Get a clue" I'll take my clues from a better set of individuals than Terry Jones and the fundies.
A couple mainstream Christian responses to the Koran burning and or anti Muslim bigotry.

Terry Jones is a tic on an elephants ass.

[Link: www.getreligion.org...]

In a news conference Tuesday on the plan to burn Korans, Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick, the archbishop emeritus of Washington, said, “Religious leaders cannot stand by in silence when things like this are happening.” Burning the Koran, he warned, could be “taken by some as the real story of America, and it is not.”

Actions and hate speech against Muslims “bring dishonor to the name of Jesus Christ,” said the Rev. Richard Cizik, president of the New Evangelical Partnership for the Common Good and a former lobbyist for the National Association of Evangelicals.

Said the Rev. Gerald Durley, pastor at Providence Missionary Baptist Church in Atlanta: “From a Christian perspective, this is not what we stand for. This is a fringe group of individuals.”

And this link
[Link: www.examiner.com...]

Or this one.
[Link: www.trinitygnv.org...]

196 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:44:54am

re: #193 Charles

Yes, I think there is a big distinction. First, those cartoons were not uniformly negative about Islam -- several of them made positive statements. Political cartoons are much easier to see as a valid expression of free speech.

Burning a religion's holy book is a very different thing. The only reason to do it is as an expression of hatred. It doesn't make any point aside from this. It's not criticism. It's intended only to insult and degrade.

Both of these things are protected by the US constitution as they should be. But burning books is NOT the same as drawing political cartoons.

That might be true for some of the Danish cartoons - but as I recall there was also a rightwing/anti-Muslim agenda driving what happened there to some extent. I remember reading some evidence making that case, and would appreciate any links that might shed light on whether, in fact, it was.

197 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:45:52am

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

I doubt he'll be willing to wait a full year before pulling another stunt.

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:45:59am

re: #189 Talking Point Detective

I'm on board with this reaction to the Koran-burning.

so...

As much as I think that cartoonists should certainly have the right to draw whatever cartoons they want, and as much as I find it abhorrent that anyone would commit violence because their religious icons were negatively portrayed in a cartoon - I also hold at least some of the Danish cartoonists involved responsible for the violence that ensued because some of the cartoons were drawn to be deliberately provocative.

Is there some distinction between the Koran burning and the cartoons that I'm missing?

There's probably some distinction, but I was never all that enthralled with the Danish cartoons. Some of them were disrespectful and obnoxious. Not killing nuns in Nigeria level obnoxious, mind you, but I would have been pissed off had I been Muslim. I was pissed off anyway.

Some of them were, I thought, kind of cute.

The MAJOR difference is that while both actions were provoked by a spirit of shit-disturbing, Jones was warned, by, among other luminaries, David Petraeus himself, that this would have exactly this effect. He went ahead anyway.

I don't think the Danish cartoonists thought that people would die over what they did.

Jones knew it.

199 lostlakehiker  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:47:28am

re: #155 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but someone who burns the flag is also making a symbolic statement, and that's what people respond to. No one just casually sets fire to a flag for no special reason.

(Although my mother did once almost set fire to a (very small) Soviet flag at a dinner. There were candles on the table, and her friends were egging her on. And I think she'd had a couple of sips of wine.)

An American who publicly burns the American flag, in protest against, say, "oppression", admits by his actions that which he denies in word: that we are free.

Along with other reasons, the flag deserves not to be treated thus, precisely because even burning it is tolerated. There's a religious lesson here: if a book is holy and good, then doing evil in the name of defending the honor and reputation of the book achieves the opposite of the intended effect. The book gets a bad reputation not by being burned, but by being used as justification for the murder of innocents. So who, in the final analysis, has shown the least respect for the book? Eh?

200 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:50:00am

re: #199 lostlakehiker

So who, in the final analysis, has shown the least respect for the book?

Well the answer to thatwill be divided exactly along religious lines.

BBL

201 lostlakehiker  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:52:25am

re: #200 Ojoe

Well the answer to thatwill be divided exactly along religious lines.

BBL

See post 195 above.

In a news conference Tuesday on the plan to burn Korans, Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick, the archbishop emeritus of Washington, said, “Religious leaders cannot stand by in silence when things like this are happening.” Burning the Koran, he warned, could be “taken by some as the real story of America, and it is not.”

Actions and hate speech against Muslims “bring dishonor to the name of Jesus Christ,” said the Rev. Richard Cizik, president of the New Evangelical Partnership for the Common Good and a former lobbyist for the National Association of Evangelicals.

Said the Rev. Gerald Durley, pastor at Providence Missionary Baptist Church in Atlanta: “From a Christian perspective, this is not what we stand for. This is a fringe group of individuals.”

I would think that if some Baptists can figure this sort of thing out, then so can some Muslims.

202 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:53:27am

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think the Danish cartoonists thought that people would die over what they did.

Jones knew it.

OK - even if (at least some of the cartoons and the intent of some of the cartoonists) were like Jones in engaging deliberately provocative acts, then yes, I can also see a clear distinction there.

I would think that the cartoonists may have had a very real sense that the reaction would be strong (in fact, the strong response was their point), but I think that there is little reason to believe that they were warned by high-level experts that the reaction would be as violent as it was.

203 Gus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:53:49am

This might be obvious but people burn flags or books for different reasons. An American burning a flag to protest the draft is not the same as an Iraqi burning the flag to protest the invasion or occupation of Iraq. Sometimes if can be for a virulent self-interest and other times it is almost burned in effigy. A person can burn the Koran out of hatred for the religion itself or out of hatred for adherents of Islam. When Jones burned the Koran it became symbolic for hatred of a people not so much a religion.

204 McSpiff  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:54:06am

re: #193 Charles

Yes, I think there is a big distinction. First, those cartoons were not uniformly negative about Islam -- several of them made positive statements. Political cartoons are much easier to see as a valid expression of free speech.

Burning a religion's holy book is a very different thing. The only reason to do it is as an expression of hatred. It doesn't make any point aside from this. It's not criticism. It's intended only to insult and degrade.

Both of these things are protected by the US constitution as they should be. But burning books is NOT the same as drawing political cartoons.

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on Islam or Islamic culture, but for many Muslims depicting the Prophet is nearly as insulting and degrading from my understanding. I think its easier for us to appreciate burning the Qur'an as offensive because that more closely aligns with Western sensibilities.

It's a tough call, because that same argument also means that Jones is more likely to have known how his actions would be perceived than the Danish cartoonists.

I would say Jones's act was worse not because of the perceived level of offense but because he also violated our own cultural norms, whereas political cartoons are somewhat of a hallowed institution in the West.

For me, its a Venn diagram. "Things that offend the West", "Things that offend the Muslim World", and the overlap is "Things that offend both". Falling in that middle area really makes you an asshole, but falling in the wings will simply lead to various degrees of endless debate.

205 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:56:13am

re: #204 McSpiff

Falling in that middle area really makes you an asshole, but falling in the wings will simply lead to various degrees of endless debate.


Hah! Best use of a Venn diagram in some time.

206 McSpiff  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 11:57:07am

re: #205 Rightwingconspirator

Hah! Best use of a Venn diagram in some time.

I'm an engineer, I can't help it sometimes!

207 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:03:24pm

re: #204 McSpiff

I think that SFZ's point is a good one. Probably, there cartoonists weren't as aware of the likelihood for violent reaction - and in that sense the intent may have been different. In fact, with the cartoons, it wasn't simply the fact that they were published that was linked to the violent reactions (notice I didn't say "caused"), but also how the situation was handled subsequent to their being published.

But your point also relates: in general, the reaction of the Danish society to the cartoons was quite different than the reaction here to the Koran-burning. Support for the cartoons was not limited to raving extremists as is the support for the Koran-burning.

208 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:07:42pm

One more thing gets me on this, and it adds to my discomfort. The 1st amendment is something that we have as Americans. Usually when the 1st is abused (Funeral protests, racial hate speech, etc) we pay the price for it ourselves. Right here at home. This time our amendment has cost many lives that are not American, very far from our own shores. That hurts more somehow, that "our" amendment has cost lives that had little or nothing to do with free speech, America, or certainly terry Jones. The cost has exceeded the boundaries.

209 McSpiff  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:22:54pm

re: #208 Rightwingconspirator

One more thing gets me on this, and it adds to my discomfort. The 1st amendment is something that we have as Americans. Usually when the 1st is abused (Funeral protests, racial hate speech, etc) we pay the price for it ourselves. Right here at home. This time our amendment has cost many lives that are not American, very far from our own shores. That hurts more somehow, that "our" amendment has cost lives that had little or nothing to do with free speech, America, or certainly terry Jones. The cost has exceeded the boundaries.

When the 1st amendment was ratified, what are the odds that a story like that would have ever made it to Afghanistan? And if it did it would have taken months anyways. We live in a very different world.

210 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:23:34pm

re: #204 McSpiff


I'm not going to claim to be an expert on Islam or Islamic culture, but for many Muslims depicting the Prophet is nearly as insulting and degrading from my understanding. I think its easier for us to appreciate burning the Qur'an as offensive because that more closely aligns with Western sensibilities.

Sounds like maybe cultures need to lighten up.

211 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:26:27pm

re: #210 SidewaysQuark

Sounds like maybe cultures need to lighten up.

What an incredibly useful suggestion.

How do we go about getting cultures to lighten up?

212 Gus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:26:40pm

re: #210 SidewaysQuark

Sounds like maybe cultures need to lighten up.

Which one?

213 McSpiff  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:27:20pm

re: #210 SidewaysQuark

Sounds like maybe cultures need to lighten up.

I agree, why can we show violence on TV but a nipple results in thousands of dollars in fines?

Cultural superiority arguments always end up being pointless naval gazing. Every culture has its sacred cows.

214 treasured people  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:27:23pm

During the Middle Ages, burning Jewish books was an obsession of Christian clerics. In one incident in the 1200's in Paris, 24 wagonloads of thousands of volumes, especially the Talmud, were burned. Today, more Jews are learning Talmud than ever before. Burning books is a tragedy but, if those books are of value, burning them will only intensify their study. I wonder if people will still read the Koran in the future since the reaction to its burning is so violent. No religion, if it sanctions gratuitous violence, can endure. Only recently, the Pope made the strongest statement yet exculpating Jews from the death of Jesus. Catholocism has changed and no longer regards Jews as enemies. So I suppose it's possible that Islam will change as well and one day regard America and Israel differently than it does today.

215 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:28:00pm

I think the comment from Charles at the top of this thread says it perfectly. Well done.

216 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:31:23pm

In some ways Jones is like John Brown: mad; dabbling in forces much greater than himself; and an agent of change probably involving a war, perhaps a big one.

217 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:33:41pm

re: #213 McSpiff

Cultural superiority arguments always end up being pointless naval nipple gazing. Every culture has its sacred cows.

In this case, FIFY.

218 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:34:40pm

re: #211 Obdicut

How do we go about getting cultures to lighten up?

Get Mel Brooks to make a movie about them.

220 Gus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:38:00pm

Image: InGodWeTrust.jpg

221 Stanghazi  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:38:01pm

re: #219 Gus 802

Image: Trijicon_AimingSolutions_BibleCode_JesusRifle2.jpg

Oh yeah, I remember that.

222 Gus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:40:02pm

re: #221 Stanley Sea

Oh yeah, I remember that.

Trijicon was ordered to end this practice but that mentality is still there.

223 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:40:35pm

re: #216 Ojoe

In some ways Jones is like John Brown: mad; dabbling in forces much greater than himself; and an agent of change probably involving a war, perhaps a big one.

OTOH, John Brown had a righteous cause, and was willing to put himself in harm's way for it. Insane, but not nearly as puerile as Jones.

224 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:43:12pm

re: #213 McSpiff


I agree, why can we show violence on TV but a nipple results in thousands of dollars in fines?

Completely absurd, I agree. Our culture's not free of idiocy either (in this case, again caused by "religion"). But I think I missed the Janet Jackson Superbowl Beheading riots...


Cultural superiority arguments always end up being pointless naval gazing. Every culture has its sacred cows.

Yes, the 'sacred cows' should all be put out of their misery.

225 Gus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:44:58pm

Anyway. It's supposed to get up to 80 degrees here today. That can only mean one thing. Stupid humans. Maybe that's what the ME and The South needs. Some kind of dome to AC the place.

/

226 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:45:33pm

Officials struggle to plug leak at Japan nuclear plant

A first attempt to plug a cracked concrete shaft that is leaking highly radioactive water into the ocean off Japan failed Saturday, so officials are now exploring alternatives, spokesmen for Tokyo Electric Co. said.

227 treasured people  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:45:52pm

re: #220 Gus 802
A rich man was once asked to reveal how much he was worth. He quoted a considerable sum but the one who asked was unimpressed. "I know you are worth a lot more than that. Your real estate alone is worth more than that." The rich man answered. "You asked me how much I am worth. The sum I quoted is the amount I have given to charity. That is an expression of my true value. All the property I own is not a measure of my true worth since it can be taken back by the bank or destroyed tomorrow. But what I have given to charity will always be accounted to my name."

228 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:49:30pm

re: #225 Gus 802

Anyway. It's supposed to get up to 80 degrees here today. That can only mean one thing. Stupid humans. Maybe that's what the ME and The South needs. Some kind of dome to AC the place.

/

I think it's 80 here today. I'm going to walk around the block, then return to my cave here and resume working and lurking.

I think I'll walk around a couple of blocks.

Whee!

229 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:51:00pm

re: #223 SanFranciscoZionist

Brown actually deserves to be remembered well.

230 Gus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:51:13pm

re: #228 wrenchwench

I think it's 80 here today. I'm going to walk around the block, then return to my cave here and resume working and lurking.

I think I'll walk around a couple of blocks.

Whee!

If things ever get rolling again I'd like to lease my own office space. Just to get away from being in the same place for such a long time.

231 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:51:42pm

re: #212 Gus 802

What an incredibly useful suggestion.

How do we go about getting cultures to lighten up?

My first suggestion would be for Americans to unmuzzle the entertainment issue from fear and political correctness, and allow them to make the same unrestrained commentary and mockery of Islam that they do for every other religion. Then, after an initial period of discord, they'll become desensitized to it through sheer necessity.

232 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:52:58pm

re: #231 SidewaysQuark

I meant industry, not issue. Bad edit. Ugh.

233 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:53:57pm

Here is some perspective on this story from John Avlon of the Daily Beast ...

[Link: www.thedailybeast.com...]

It comes from someone who essentially a centrist, it is not a political piece.

234 Gus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:55:33pm

re: #231 SidewaysQuark

My first suggestion would be for Americans to unmuzzle the entertainment issue from fear and political correctness, and allow them to make the same unrestrained commentary and mockery of Islam that they do for every other religion. Then, after an initial period of discord, they'll become desensitized to it through sheer necessity.

Looks that quote was misattributed from #211. Anyway, that desensitization process is probably already happening.

235 McSpiff  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:57:23pm

re: #231 SidewaysQuark

My first suggestion would be for Americans to unmuzzle the entertainment issue from fear and political correctness, and allow them to make the same unrestrained commentary and mockery of Islam that they do for every other religion. Then, after an initial period of discord, they'll become desensitized to it through sheer necessity.

You really think the majority of the Muslim world is exposed to American entertainment? For some reason I can't imagine the Daily Show has a very large following in Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

236 Gus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 12:59:31pm

Back later. Watch out for the inevitable trolling.

237 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:04:42pm

re: #231 SidewaysQuark

My first suggestion would be for Americans to unmuzzle the entertainment issue from fear and political correctness, and allow them to make the same unrestrained commentary and mockery of Islam that they do for every other religion. Then, after an initial period of discord, they'll become desensitized to it through sheer necessity.

Let us hypothetically say that the mainstream media is liberal, and then suppose that both they and the entertainment industry indulge in unrestrained commentary and mockery of modern American Conservatives. This is clearly not the general case, but it certainly is one of the tenets of the Conservative faith that such is in fact true. Have modern American Conservatives become desensitised to it, or have they become more radicalised?

238 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:07:10pm

This is such bullshit. There are swarms of people right here in Lubbock, and in the rest of the USA, who would similarly riot and commit murder if the long arm of the law weren't so intimidating. My friend the Big Box security guard tells stories that would curl your hair, especially about drunken college students. The only difference between these ignorant Afghan savages and our ignorant savages is the relative weakness of the law in that part of the world.

239 McSpiff  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:13:09pm

re: #238 Shiplord Kirel

I suspect that if America ever tried to impose gun control like what much of the western world has, 2nd amendment not withstanding, you'd see similar scenes. Like I said, each culture has their own sacred cows. Saying "but guns are different!" doesn't really do it for me.

240 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:18:46pm

re: #238 Shiplord Kirel

And our fundamentalism, here, often works through the law, as in the case of the woman being arrested for attempted murder of her fetus-- because she committed suicide.

I do think that modern fundamentalism Islam is more violent and more promoting of violence than any other (reasonably widespread) faith. Modern Christian fundamentalists in the US may have horrifying vies on a large number of subjects, bu the combination of having been brought up in a country with a first amendment, and a prosperousness country where they're engaged in the political process, I think has prevented their radicalization.

241 webevintage  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:25:31pm

I'll say this again.
Jones is nothing more then an evil conman using religion to make money...which makes him an even more despicable human being.

242 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:26:44pm

re: #239 McSpiff

I suspect that if America ever tried to impose gun control like what much of the western world has, 2nd amendment not withstanding, you'd see similar scenes. Like I said, each culture has their own sacred cows. Saying "but guns are different!" doesn't really do it for me.

Speaking of cultural hot buttons, a SF Giants fan is in a coma after being beaten unconscious at Dodgers Stadium last night.
Even this is nothing compared to the antics of soccer hooligans in supposedly civilized Europe.
A couple of years ago, a nitwit I knew was arrested for threatening to kill people who publicly criticized the Dixie Chicks. He was an engineer and a noted rock musician. Other Chickolaters rushed to his defense.
Our idiots react just as Muslims do when their true religion is threatened. This is not to excuse the Koran rioters, of course, but to blunt the many attempts we see to use these riots and murders as evidence of our inherent cultural superiority. If we have a better society, it is because we have the institutions and the will to crush the violently intolerant before they really get started.

243 beartiger  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:32:49pm

re: #6 Walter L. Newton
I find the existence of flags repugnant, too.

244 engineer cat  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:33:50pm

A proposal that would permanently divert at least $194 million annually in real estate-related taxes from Florida's affordable housing program to general state spending won approval Friday from the Senate Budget Committee.

The panel also voted to slash health care spending for transplant recipients and other "medically needy" patients with catastrophic illness but who lack sufficient insurance coverage.

Those were among several cost-cutting bills the committee approved that would conform state law to a $69.8 billion budget the panel approved Thursday for the fiscal year beginning July 1.

"cost cutting"

245 allegro  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:35:27pm

re: #244 engineer dog

The panel also voted to slash health care spending for transplant recipients and other "medically needy" patients with catastrophic illness but who lack sufficient insurance coverage.

I do believe this is the very definition of "evil".

246 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:36:01pm

re: #240 Obdicut

And our fundamentalism, here, often works through the law, as in the case of the woman being arrested for attempted murder of her fetus-- because she committed suicide.

I do think that modern fundamentalism Islam is more violent and more promoting of violence than any other (reasonably widespread) faith. Modern Christian fundamentalists in the US may have horrifying vies on a large number of subjects, bu the combination of having been brought up in a country with a first amendment, and a prosperousness country where they're engaged in the political process, I think has prevented their radicalization.

I think you're right about Christian fundamentalism in this country. See my #242 though. I think the real counterpart to Muslim fundamentalism in this country is not Christianity but other powerful sources of affiliation like sports, popular culture, and general choices about lifestyle. As McSpiff points out, we would almost certainly see a violent reaction if we violated the tenets of the gun culture by trying to institute European style gun control. This would happen in spite of the power of our laws. I suspect there are people who would resist violently if we tried to get them out of their gas-guzzling SUVs, or banned line-dancing, or forced Two and a Half Men off the air.

247 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:38:53pm

re: #246 Shiplord Kirel

There was also a time when marching for civil rights was enough to start riots and murders.

Not a time that long in our past, either.

With great struggle, it was overcome.

248 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:40:42pm

re: #229 Ojoe

Brown actually deserves to be remembered well.

A violent, unstable man, but I can't fault what he fought for. Very hard man to categorize.

A young-adult novel I highly recommend is "Mine Eyes Have Seen", which is the story of the summer leading up to Harper's Ferry, told by the teenage daughter Brown brought along to keep house for him and the troops. Very well imagined.

249 McSpiff  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:41:43pm

re: #247 Obdicut

There was also a time when marching for civil rights was enough to start riots and murders.

Not a time that long in our past, either.

With great struggle, it was overcome.

The segregationist movement might be the closet we've seen to Muslim extremism to be honest.

250 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:41:56pm

re: #231 SidewaysQuark

My first suggestion would be for Americans to unmuzzle the entertainment issue from fear and political correctness, and allow them to make the same unrestrained commentary and mockery of Islam that they do for every other religion. Then, after an initial period of discord, they'll become desensitized to it through sheer necessity.

What would that look like? Can you give me an examples of mockery and commentary on other religions that has not been applied to Islam?

251 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:42:27pm

re: #235 McSpiff

You really think the majority of the Muslim world is exposed to American entertainment? For some reason I can't imagine the Daily Show has a very large following in Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

For all I know, they may. And Stewart does not use a light hand when it comes to Islam.

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:43:39pm

re: #238 Shiplord Kirel

This is such bullshit. There are swarms of people right here in Lubbock, and in the rest of the USA, who would similarly riot and commit murder if the long arm of the law weren't so intimidating. My friend the Big Box security guard tells stories that would curl your hair, especially about drunken college students. The only difference between these ignorant Afghan savages and our ignorant savages is the relative weakness of the law in that part of the world.



Rabbi Chanina taught: "Pray for the welfare of the government, for without fear of governmental authorities people would swallow each other alive."

253 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:45:08pm

re: #247 Obdicut

There was also a time when marching for civil rights was enough to start riots and murders.

Not a time that long in our past, either.

With great struggle, it was overcome.

There was a time when a black man registering to vote was targeted for death in some of our tribal regions. In my parent's lifetime.

Cultures can and do move forward.

254 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:48:08pm

This is not to suggest this thread is boring, but I fell asleep sitting in my chair with my laptop on my lap.

I apologize to anyone expecting a response to their response.

Or something.

255 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:51:32pm

For those of you who may have been following the unfolding tale of Rebecca Black and "Friday", possibly the worst pop song since the height of the Roman Empire, I bring to your attention, Stephen Colbert, singing "Friday" with his friends on the Jimmy Fallon show.

256 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 1:54:51pm

re: #255 SanFranciscoZionist

That's a lot of autotune going on there... Autodealership-tune more like. Girl is flat as can be. Err, her voice I mean.

257 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:02:19pm

re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist


Rabbi Chanina taught: "Pray for the welfare of the government, for without fear of governmental authorities people would swallow each other alive."

That's one reason the runaway vilification of "gummint" in this country bothers me. Heaven knows there is plenty to criticize in government at every level in this country, but current attitudes seem to go well beyond that. Hatred of, and opposition to, the very idea of government seems to have become the cultural norm among some elements of society. A lot of this is rooted in the kind of individualistic mythology we see among the more radical adherents of survivalism. Their cherished fantasy is that they would actually do better in a world where their individual strength and will were not thwarted by collective forces. In crude terms, this is the belief that once society collapses, Jim Bob the macho man will be free to take whatever he likes at gunpoint or with just the manly force of his best John Wayne stare.

258 Stanghazi  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:12:38pm

very slow day isn't it?

waiting for the GAME.

259 Stanghazi  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:18:27pm

Today in Wisconsin is the zombie themed protest.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

260 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:22:47pm

re: #257 Shiplord Kirel


That's one reason the runaway vilification of "gummint" in this country bothers me. Heaven knows there is plenty to criticize in government at every level in this country, but current attitudes seem to go well beyond that. Hatred of, and opposition to, the very idea of government seems to have become the cultural norm among some elements of society. A lot of this is rooted in the kind of individualistic mythology we see among the more radical adherents of survivalism. Their cherished fantasy is that they would actually do better in a world where their individual strength and will were not thwarted by collective forces. In crude terms, this is the belief that once society collapses, Jim Bob the macho man will be free to take whatever he likes at gunpoint or with just the manly force of his best John Wayne stare.

For those who prefer to live in a society completely free of the 'evils' of government, I hear Somalia is nice....

261 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:22:52pm

re: #258 Stanley Sea

I'm looking at saving gas in my truck. Maybe an aftermarket cold air air-filter system to eke out better mileage. Maybe a "cat-back" exhaust for still a little more mileage. Looks like a 3 year payback or less if gas hits $5. That and extra bright highbeam light elements for those darker remote roads.

262 Stanghazi  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:25:11pm

re: #261 Rightwingconspirator

I'm looking at saving gas in my truck. Maybe an aftermarket cold air air-filter system to eke out better mileage. Maybe a "cat-back" exhaust for still a little more mileage. Looks like a 3 year payback or less if gas hits $5. That and extra bright highbeam light elements for those darker remote roads.

Very interesting. I'm looking into taking the coaster. I paid 4.09 yesterday. ugh.

263 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:27:24pm

re: #250 SanFranciscoZionist


What would that look like? Can you give me an examples of mockery and commentary on other religions that has not been applied to Islam

Sure. For those who prefer commentary, Scorcese's "The Last Temptation of Christ" was great. "The Life of Brian" was good, too. Similar movies focusing on Muhammad and Islam would be entertaining.

For those who prefer outright mockery, South Park does a pretty vicious hack job on Jesus on a regular basis. It's usually pretty funny. They even showed Muhammad once, but wussed out the last time 'round. They shouldn't have.

264 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:29:07pm

re: #248 SanFranciscoZionist

Thank you for the info about the novel "Mine Eyes have Seen."

265 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:30:26pm

re: #261 Rightwingconspirator

I'm looking at saving gas in my truck. Maybe an aftermarket cold air air-filter system to eke out better mileage. Maybe a "cat-back" exhaust for still a little more mileage. Looks like a 3 year payback or less if gas hits $5. That and extra bright highbeam light elements for those darker remote roads.

Best way to save gas is travel downhill.

266 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:31:54pm

John Brown's portrait in the National Portrait Gallery.

I suppose the Islamic world is still looking for its own John Brown.

267 b_Snark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:34:30pm

BBML

268 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:35:02pm

re: #265 b_sharp

Best way to save gas is travel downhill.

I have racked up 100 miles on my commuter bike from 1-14-11 to today. Half of that was down hill.

269 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:43:19pm

BBL

270 Varek Raith  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:49:51pm

re: #261 Rightwingconspirator

I'm looking at saving gas in my truck. Maybe an aftermarket cold air air-filter system to eke out better mileage. Maybe a "cat-back" exhaust for still a little more mileage. Looks like a 3 year payback or less if gas hits $5. That and extra bright highbeam light elements for those darker remote roads.

Techno-babble.
;)

271 albusteve  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:51:26pm

here in NM we have a wind advisory and a fire advisory, both across the entire state, every inch...never seen this before...
forest fires out here worry me

272 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:53:35pm

re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist


Rabbi Chanina taught: "Pray for the welfare of the government, for without fear of governmental authorities people would swallow each other alive."

QFT & Copied into my prayer book.

273 albusteve  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:53:41pm

85 and breezy
9% humidity, dry as a popcorn fart
(I knew you'd want to know)

274 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:54:44pm

Good Atlantic article about nuclear power. I made a page about it.

This is part of the scary bit:


Nonetheless, only two U.S. nuclear sites are in compliance with federal fire regulations; all others continue to operate with exemptions, a stopgap system that was implemented more than thirty years ago and was never intended as a permanent solution.
275 albusteve  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:54:52pm

re: #272 wlewisiii

QFT & Copied into my prayer book.

pray for the welfare of the NFL so fans do not have to try and detox from the strike

276 Varek Raith  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:55:04pm

re: #273 albusteve

85 and breezy
9% humidity, dry as a popcorn fart
(I knew you'd want to know)

Never heard it put like that before.
*Jots that down*

We go a little bit of snow last night and hail a few hours ago.
Mid-Atlantic weather patterns are fun.

277 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:55:09pm

re: #272 wlewisiii

QFT & Copied into my prayer book.

Thanks again for your page on your minister's Ash Wed. homily. It has been quite a Lenten season for me.

278 albusteve  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:56:02pm

re: #276 Varek Raith

Never heard it put like that before.
*Jots that down*

We go a little bit of snow last night and hail a few hours ago.
Mid-Atlantic weather patterns are fun.

snow?
SNOW?
bwahahaha

279 Varek Raith  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:56:54pm

re: #278 albusteve

snow?
SNOW?
bwahahaha

Be quiet you...
You and your 85 degree weather!

280 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:57:48pm

re: #263 SidewaysQuark

Sure. For those who prefer commentary, Scorcese's "The Last Temptation of Christ" was great. "The Life of Brian" was good, too. Similar movies focusing on Muhammad and Islam would be entertaining.

For those who prefer outright mockery, South Park does a pretty vicious hack job on Jesus on a regular basis. It's usually pretty funny. They even showed Muhammad once, but wussed out the last time 'round. They shouldn't have.

Thanks, I get your idea now. Those are good examples, and great movies, but one of the things I'd add on is that those movies came out of a whole film tradition made in a Christian culture for a Christian audience. There isn't a Muslim 'Last Temptation', but there's also not a Muslim "Jesus of Nazareth", or a Muslim "Seventh Heaven", or a Muslim "Greatest Story Ever Told", or a Muslim "The Best Christmas Pageant Ever".

There is a developing film tradition in Iran, at least, and certainly many movies made that are critical of things in modern Muslim society. "Osama", "The Stoning of Soraya M.", that sort of thing.

But some British guys from Christian backgrounds making a "Life of Brian", feels really different from the same guys making a Muslim equivalent. It feels more like an attack from outside. Because it would be an attack from outside.

Also, I don't know if these movies would be of immediate interest to Westerners. I mean, I would totally go to see a biopic about Aisha, controversial or no, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be financially or artistically successful in the West outside of the small-film indy world that liked the ones I mention above. And I wouldn't go to a rollicking edgy comedy about how funny Islam is, made by non-Muslims, because that would just be jerky.

So the question is, who would make these movies, and what for? Something made just to get Muslims used to watching non-Muslims making funny jokes about Mohammed is just going to piss everyone off, and be a bad movie. Muslims will hate it because it's disrespectful. Non-Muslims will hate it either because it's disrespectful, or because they don't get the jokes, or both. And Pam Geller will hate it because INTERNATIONAL JIHAD ISN'T FUNNY, GOD DAMN IT!!!!

I have to note in passing, the fact that a number of wingnuts really hated the infamous Doritos as communion ad earlier this year. I didn't care for it myself, but many of them felt that the maker should have made one about Islam instead, or said no one would have dared. That may be true, but also, no one would have got it. So it didn't get made. Instead, a devout Catholic made one about a church. Because it's funny if you're in the culture, and you get it.

Please note, I have written this entire response without using the term 'bombing at the box office' once. This took some doing. Praise me.

281 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:59:09pm

re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist

Sorry, that was really long. Didn't mean to ramble quite so much.

282 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 2:59:39pm

re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist

Praises, SFZ.

283 albusteve  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:00:06pm

re: #279 Varek Raith

Be quiet you...
You and your 85 degree weather!

the air out here, even in the city, is so clear and dry that 85 can feel like 105...it burns like a laser til you get used to it....it's okay to feel sorry for me

284 albusteve  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:01:20pm

re: #281 SanFranciscoZionist

Sorry, that was really long. Didn't mean to ramble quite so much.

generally I scroll past such windy posts...you are one of like one of 3 exceptions....just don't make a habit of it

285 John Q  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:03:29pm

re: #31 dubi

Look at how much damage one idiot can do.

I'm talking about Goldstone of course.


Goldstone is a decent and honorable man. Attacks on him are an example of blaming the messenger for bringing unwanted news.

You can take the measure of the man from the interview with him here: [Link: conversations.berkeley.edu...]

286 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:03:29pm

re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist


Please note, I have written this entire response without using the term 'bombing at the box office' once. This took some doing. Praise me.

Hehe.
It was an excellent and well-worded post, one that might actually affect my opinion on the matter in your direction. Thanks.

287 Stanghazi  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:03:36pm

re: #281 SanFranciscoZionist

Sorry, that was really long. Didn't mean to ramble quite so much.

re: #284 albusteve

generally I scroll past such windy posts...you are one of like one of 3 exceptions...just don't make a habit of it

Ditto

288 calochortus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:07:11pm

re: #273 albusteve

Now there's something I don't miss from my Colorado days. Stay safe.

289 Stanghazi  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:07:41pm

FINAL FOUR

290 BenghaziHoops  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:09:58pm

re: #289 Stanley Sea

FINAL FOUR

I hope you root for Butler with me

291 Stanghazi  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:10:49pm

re: #290 HoosierHoops

I hope you root for Butler with me

I am! Absolutely. Been yelling their name all morning. Neighbors afraid.

292 albusteve  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:14:17pm

[Link: autoya.info...]

[Link: www.beirutnightlife.com...]

modern American art.....190+ mph
$70K+
mines dark red

293 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:22:34pm

re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist

Good points. I would like to mention Four Lions as a movie spoofing radical Islam. Although it was a western movie, it caused little or no outrage and was very well received in the UK. I just checked the credits and there are a lot of Muslim names involved in the production of the movie. I think it will happen more in Muslim countries in the foreseeable future. People in Iran want to go back to a modern secular country. When they do I get the feeling that art and music critical of Islam is going to be pretty popular.

294 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:23:38pm

re: #293 Killgore Trout

Good points. I would like to mention Four Lions as a movie spoofing radical Islam. Although it was a western movie, it caused little or no outrage and was very well received in the UK. I just checked the credits and there are a lot of Muslim names involved in the production of the movie. I think it will happen more in Muslim countries in the foreseeable future. People in Iran want to go back to a modern secular country. When they do I get the feeling that art and music critical of Islam is going to be pretty popular.

Never heard of it. I'll check it out.

295 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:26:19pm

I just watched the remake of True Grit. Is there an implied sexual relationship between the girl and LeBoeuf? Was there one in the original movie? A lot of those old westerns had some stuff that seems really odd today. Clint Eastwood raped a chick in a barn in one film (Fist Full of Dollars?) and she loved him for it.

296 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:27:30pm

re: #295 Killgore Trout

I just watched the remake of True Grit. Is there an implied sexual relationship between the girl and LeBoeuf? Was there one in the original movie? A lot of those old westerns had some stuff that seems really odd today. Clint Eastwood raped a chick in a barn in one film (Fist Full of Dollars?) and she loved him for it.

Rape was pretty much considered an acceptable way of winning a woman's heart in American cinema until about 1978.

Sad but true.

297 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:27:42pm

re: #294 SanFranciscoZionist

Never heard of it. I'll check it out.

I really liked the movie. The trailer makes it seem like a whacky slapstick thing but I found it to be a very thoughtful black comedy. Stinging at time but very funny.

298 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:29:32pm

re: #297 Killgore Trout

I'll have to check it out. A friend of mine who is Muslim actually recommended it to me as well; he's religious, but very much about US secular values, too.

299 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:37:56pm

re: #298 Obdicut

I'll have to check it out. A friend of mine who is Muslim actually recommended it to me as well; he's religious, but very much about US secular values, too.

Hey, I read your post about your political volunteering. I knew you would not let moss grow under your feet! I am going to poke my cousin for you.
Perhaps it won't work out on my end, Sorry.

300 zora  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:40:07pm

re: #296 SanFranciscoZionist

Rape was pretty much considered an acceptable way of winning a woman's heart in American cinema until about 1978.

Sad but true.

i remember that's how luke and laura got started on "general hospital". one of daytime tv's greatest romances.

301 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:40:38pm

re: #299 prairiefire

It's okay if it doesn't; I'm having fun getting in on the very grassroots level. We're doing fundraising at the Freelancers Union for the PAC, and our goal is all of $5,000. I'm hoping we do significantly better than that, but it's good experience nonetheless.

302 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:47:47pm

re: #301 Obdicut

It's okay if it doesn't; I'm having fun getting in on the very grassroots level. We're doing fundraising at the Freelancers Union for the PAC, and our goal is all of $5,000. I'm hoping we do significantly better than that, but it's good experience nonetheless.

Great! When I was doing fund raising for Human Rights Campaign, I found if I could distill the goal down to a sentence or two that covered the hot buttons, I could make a lot of phone calls and get good results.

303 zora  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:48:42pm

[Link: www.politico.com...]

Glenn Beck: Donald Trump's making me 'uncomfortable'

When O'Reilly noted that Trump is "getting a massive amount of attention quickly" by espousing the "birther" claims and saying he would aggressively go after China as president, Beck argued there should be a push for "serious candidates who could shake things up by not saying provocative things."

And he added the nation doesn't need a "show boat."

Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

ha!

304 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:50:16pm

re: #303 zora

Thank you for the post, I needed the belly laugh.
Pass a tissue, I can't see...

305 albusteve  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:50:35pm

re: #303 zora

[Link: www.politico.com...]

Glenn Beck: Donald Trump's making me 'uncomfortable'

When O'Reilly noted that Trump is "getting a massive amount of attention quickly" by espousing the "birther" claims and saying he would aggressively go after China as president, Beck argued there should be a push for "serious candidates who could shake things up by not saying provocative things."

And he added the nation doesn't need a "show boat."

Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

ha!

proof he has the insecurities of a child....twittle pours forth and he has no clue

306 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:52:29pm

re: #302 prairiefire

Yep. It's fun brainstorming ideas to get people to work together and understand each other's issues. A good antidote to the Fox/Beck/Permanent Outrage flotilla.

I'd still love to hear from your cousin, but I'm not twiddling my thumbs. Except during this song, of course:

Youtube Video
307 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:55:38pm

re: #303 zora

[Link: www.politico.com...]

Glenn Beck: Donald Trump's making me 'uncomfortable'

When O'Reilly noted that Trump is "getting a massive amount of attention quickly" by espousing the "birther" claims and saying he would aggressively go after China as president, Beck argued there should be a push for "serious candidates who could shake things up by not saying provocative things."

And he added the nation doesn't need a "show boat."

Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

ha!

The Liberals, caught out in lie.
They always say the right can't do humor...

308 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:55:43pm

re: #306 Obdicut

You Captains of Industry in NYC are busy folks. I'll try again.
Has your wife dissected a corpse, yet? Med students do that, right?

309 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:58:01pm

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

Count me as a primitivist then. Jones also talked about burning the Talmud, and I almost screamed.

Too much bad history with book burning. Too much.

THIS

Book burning is evil, period

310 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 3:59:01pm

re: #308 prairiefire

Yes, she's doing her anatomy section right now.

It's hard on her for three reasons:

1. It's very technically challenging, and the names for most anatomical features are semi-arbitrary and disorganized. Lots of rote learning and tricky surgery.

2. Dealing with the fact that she's dealing with a dead body.

3. Dealing with the attitudes of her classmates, many of whom she finds insufficientlycognizant of what a... privilege it is to be able to learn in this way.

They're having a memorial for the people who gave their bodies, and her biggest worry is that her classmates are going to not treat the occasion with proper respect. The family of some of them will be there.

311 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:00:26pm

re: #293 Killgore Trout

Good points. I would like to mention Four Lions as a movie spoofing radical Islam. Although it was a western movie, it caused little or no outrage and was very well received in the UK. I just checked the credits and there are a lot of Muslim names involved in the production of the movie. I think it will happen more in Muslim countries in the foreseeable future. People in Iran want to go back to a modern secular country. When they do I get the feeling that art and music critical of Islam is going to be pretty popular.

Iran is beginning to have a legitimate metal scene, with internationally signed acts: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

312 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:01:46pm

re: #310 Obdicut

Oh, a few spoiled ones, huh. She should practice up on her piercing glare.

313 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:01:51pm

re: #310 Obdicut

Yes, she's doing her anatomy section right now.

It's hard on her for three reasons:

1. It's very technically challenging, and the names for most anatomical features are semi-arbitrary and disorganized. Lots of rote learning and tricky surgery.

2. Dealing with the fact that she's dealing with a dead body.

3. Dealing with the attitudes of her classmates, many of whom she finds insufficientlycognizant of what a... privilege it is to be able to learn in this way.

They're having a memorial for the people who gave their bodies, and her biggest worry is that her classmates are going to not treat the occasion with proper respect. The family of some of them will be there.

A friend of mine who's a nurse (and going back to get her doctorate as a NP) had a similar experience with classmates (usually younger) who were just not treating the program with respect

314 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:03:32pm

re: #312 prairiefire

Oh, a few spoiled ones, huh. She should practice up on her piercing glare.

Oh god. Some of them.. about an eighth of her total class-- saw, in a thought experiment, absolutely nothing wrong with giving a pelvic exam to an unconscious, sedated woman, without her consent.

Why? Because they might find cervical cancer, and it's a great learning opportunity anyway!

Scary how thoughtless some of them are. My wife and I are much older than most of them, so that's part of the disconnect.

Luckily, there are some very cool and ethical ones in the group as well. Just a surprising number of thoughtless ones.

315 calochortus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:03:34pm

re: #310 Obdicut

My daughter's experience was that it was a meaningful and appropriately observed occasion at her med school. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the students' discomfort made them act flippant in lab.

316 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:05:18pm

I hope this is true.

Libya: Woman Who Claims Rape Is Now Free

A woman who rushed into a hotel to tell foreign reporters that Libyan troops had raped her is free and with her family, a Libyan government spokesman said Sunday. He said that four men have been interrogated in the case.

Video at link...

Meanwhile from an allied nation:
Brisbane rape victim sues UAE luxury hotel

A Brisbane woman is suing a five-star hotel in the United Arab Emirates after she was drugged and raped by co-workers and jailed for eight months.

In a landmark case, Alicia Gali, 29, is seeking compensation from her former employer, Le Meridien Al Aqah Beach Resort, for breaching its workplace duty of care.

In June 2008 Ms Gali had her drink spiked and was raped by up to four co-workers while working as a beauty salon manager at the international resort.

When she reported the assault to authorities she was jailed on an adultery charge and spent eight months in prison because it is illegal in the UAE to have sex outside marriage.

More at link...

f##kin spit.

317 calochortus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:05:18pm

re: #314 Obdicut

]
Scary how thoughtless some of them are. My wife and I are much older than most of them, so that's part of the disconnect.

Luckily, there are some very cool and ethical ones in the group as well. Just a surprising number of thoughtless ones.

with luck they will manage to mature during their medical education. It is, apparently, a sobering experience.

318 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:05:28pm

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

Many. This has the look of something the pastor put together himself with very limited knowledge of website design.

Probably everyone who might be able to help him improve it is considered to be of the devil. It's always a problem.

or more likely, has someone make for him with volunteer labor ;-)

even very limited HTML is tough to make work if you're not used to code at all

319 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:06:37pm

re: #317 calochortus

with luck they will manage to mature during their medical education. It is, apparently, a sobering experience.

once they have to do their residency, they'll get mature quick :D

320 calochortus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:09:16pm

re: #319 WindUpBird

Or die trying. The good news from residency-land is that the 30 hour "call" shift is about to be a thing of the past, although the prohibition only applies to the incoming interns in July. More enlightened hospitals are instituting it across the board. The hours will still be long, but there will be less sleep deprivation-good for residents and good for patients.

321 albusteve  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:13:32pm

re: #313 WindUpBird

A friend of mine who's a nurse (and going back to get her doctorate as a NP) had a similar experience with classmates (usually younger) who were just not treating the program with respect

in my nursing program, I was horrified at how poor the staff treated the students....allied health programs are notorious havens for Sekrit Nazi Bitches

322 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:14:17pm

re: #311 WindUpBird

Iran is beginning to have a legitimate metal scene, with internationally signed acts: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


They also have a pretty cool rap scene as well...
Khashayar Ey Vay

Youtube Video
323 BenghaziHoops  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:18:03pm

I just called Indiana... There is a huge party going on at Paulies house.. I miss those guys..I can't wait to go back there for the race in May

324 abolitionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:18:48pm

re: #316 ozbloke

Same story..
Libyan woman claims rape by 15 soldiers

I cannot imagine an iota of practical difference between tyranny and theocracy.

325 albusteve  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:21:53pm

re: #323 HoosierHoops

I just called Indiana... There is a huge party going on at Paulies house.. I miss those guys..I can't wait to go back there for the race in May

know what you mean...I've not seen my out of state buddies in almost three years

326 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:29:41pm

re: #320 calochortus

Or die trying. The good news from residency-land is that the 30 hour "call" shift is about to be a thing of the past, although the prohibition only applies to the incoming interns in July. More enlightened hospitals are instituting it across the board. The hours will still be long, but there will be less sleep deprivation-good for residents and good for patients.

Not really. 30 hours a shift isn't really that long. The uncomfortable truth of the situation is that if the situation is dire and things are critical (ie. the time when fatigue may well cause a serious mistake), nobody's going home, 30 hours or 60 hours or more. In situations like that, changing over to a new person is more likely to introduce a serious error, rather than just staying yourself.

In surgical specialties, 80 hours a week isn't long enough. It just isn't, especially when you're a resident. You can't learn all you need to in that short a period. Surgical specialties are debating pulling out of the ACGME over the 80 hour week and no call restrictions, because their interns simply won't be functional with so few hours. Limiting hours is actually pretty unpopular among students and residents, because a) you're only delaying the baptism by fire that everyone has to go through, and b) it will result in longer residencies, which nobody wants.

327 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:30:34pm

Libya was an inside job manufactured by the CIA. Ron Paul? Close, it's his buddy Dennis Kucinich...

Youtube Video
328 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:35:27pm

re: #314 Obdicut

Scary how thoughtless some of them are. My wife and I are much older than most of them, so that's part of the disconnect.

Remember, the frontal cortex doesn't finish developing until age 26 or 27 on average. Many people really don't self edit like they should before that. Facebook stands as a testament to this fact.

329 abolitionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:40:23pm

re: #327 Killgore Trout

Libya was an inside job manufactured by the CIA. Ron Paul? Close, it's his buddy Dennis Kucinich...

[Video]

At 2:06 "On November second, 2011, France and Great Britain signed a mutual defense treaty..."

Dennis Kucinich, time traveler? /

330 calochortus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:40:23pm

re: #326 Renaissance_Man

It may work well for some people and you're entitled to your opinion, but it is a situation where it is easy to forget to follow up on a test, or just not be as sharp as you need to be.
Most physicians do not work those kinds of hours without a break in their professional lives. ER doctors and some surgeons may, but they usually get to go home and sleep at some point.

For the vast majority of people, learning while seriously sleep deprived isn't really effective. One is exposed to information but it just doesn't 'stick'. Besides, doctors of all people should know that sleep deprivation is very bad for one's health.

331 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:42:25pm

re: #329 abolitionist

At 2:06 "On November second, 2011, France and Great Britain signed a mutual defense treaty..."

Dennis Kucinich, time traveler? /

Heh, nice catch.

332 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:46:29pm

Well, I have to give Ron Paul credit. He does this every years and it sure is awesome....
Ron Paul returns over $140,000 from his office budget to the U.S. Treasury

333 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:49:52pm

re: #332 Killgore Trout

And, if he can do it, couldn't the other Congressmen & women?

334 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:55:13pm

re: #330 calochortus

It may work well for some people and you're entitled to your opinion, but it is a situation where it is easy to forget to follow up on a test, or just not be as sharp as you need to be.
Most physicians do not work those kinds of hours without a break in their professional lives. ER doctors and some surgeons may, but they usually get to go home and sleep at some point.

For the vast majority of people, learning while seriously sleep deprived isn't really effective. One is exposed to information but it just doesn't 'stick'. Besides, doctors of all people should know that sleep deprivation is very bad for one's health.

It is. But there just isn't any other way in medicine.

There's just too much to be done, especially in a teaching hospital. Nobody wants to stay longer than they have to. Yes, if we stay, we might make a couple of mistakes. With any luck, someone else will catch them before they get out of control. But if we go, things don't get done at all, and then people die.

335 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:55:35pm

re: #333 Floral Giraffe

And, if he can do it, couldn't the other Congressmen & women?

Sure, but nobody else does. I'm sure they just blow whatever excess they have on parties trips, bonuses etc.

336 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:58:57pm

re: #335 Killgore Trout

Well, 2 of them do!
From your link:

Congressman Bill Owens (D-NY), who joined the ranks of Congress after winning the hotly-contested NY-23 special election in 2009, has also returned a portion of his congressional office budget this year. Last month, his office reported a surplus of over $230,000- 15% of his annual allotment and even more than Congressman Paul's surplus.
337 calochortus  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:58:57pm

re: #334 Renaissance_Man

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

338 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 5:10:37pm

re: #336 Floral Giraffe

Well, 2 of them do!
From your link:

Ah, nice.

339 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 6:01:33pm

re: #311 WindUpBird

This is actually true in a large part of the Middle East overall.

340 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 7:52:00pm

re: #339 ProLifeLiberal

This is actually true in a large part of the Middle East overall.

you are correct

(saw Orphaned Land live ^_^ )

341 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 2, 2011 8:37:49pm

re: #327 Killgore Trout

Libya was an inside job manufactured by the CIA. Ron Paul? Close, it's his buddy Dennis Kucinich...

[Video]

Dennis is really in his element with this Libya thing.

342 Petero1818  Sun, Apr 3, 2011 8:28:23pm

re: #14 Rightwingconspirator

What is the life expectancy of a non Islamic but very religious person or group in Afghanistan?

Seems to me only a primitivist would see the book itself as holy, rather than the lessons it contains. Only a primitivist would forget we can print the holy books as fast as our machines can run.

While that may be true, there are no shortage of folks who believe that the burning of an American flag should be punishable by law. Even when that flag was one of 200 made that day in China by an 8 year old making a dollar a day.

343 Petero1818  Sun, Apr 3, 2011 8:31:22pm

re: #332 Killgore Trout

Well, I have to give Ron Paul credit. He does this every years and it sure is awesome...
Ron Paul returns over $140,000 from his office budget to the U.S. Treasury

Great, so he is a fiscally responsible lunatic.

344 Ming  Mon, Apr 4, 2011 12:42:27pm

I have mixed feelings about the Koran burning in Florida. Of course, I completely agree with everything that Charles said in his post. Terry Jones was warned that his action would cause violence, and he still went ahead with it. This makes him a terrible human being. I absolutely feel that way.

But I'm very uncomfortable with how things now stand: that no good person should ever, ever knowingly do something that can be predicted to offend a Muslim. We've seen this with the Danish cartoons, and with the moviemaker Theo Van Gogh. I'm not the personality type to do this myself, but I really do like it that there are people who are willing to do things that offend others, to make sure that robust free speech is alive and well. So I'm glad there are people who do shows like South Park, or that art exhibit where a crucifix was submerged in urine. I'm glad there are people who burn American flags, because then there can be people who burn Soviet flags.

I conclude that even the contemptibility of Terry Jones is drawfed by the pure evil of those Muslims who are provoked into violence by cartoons, or movies, or the burning of a book. Yes, of course, something is very, VERY wrong with Terry Jones. But looking at the Muslims who are so offended, there is something much, much worse there.

345 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 4, 2011 2:04:01pm

re: #344 Ming

I disagree with the comparisons. There is not other message than of hate for burning the Koran.


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