PZ Myers has a moving and beautifully written post today on the violence in Afghanistan, and on what it means to kill: Shades of gray.
Normally I’d quote a few sentences, but just go read the whole thing. It’s more than worth a few minutes of your time.
1 |
abolitionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 11:58:04am |
I’m an extremist in this debate, I will freely confess. I hold an absolute view that no killing is ever justified, that individuals have the necessity to defend themselves against assailants, but that even that does not grant moral approval to snuffing out the life of another. Don’t even try to pull out a scale and toss a copy of the Koran on one side and the life of a single human being on the other — the comparison is obscene.
This, yes.
| 3 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:10:34pm |
I don’t entirely agree with him but I appreciate the hell out of his point of view.
| 5 |
rwmofo Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:14:05pm |
A Koran Burning Ignored in the U.S. Was News in Afghanistan and Pakistan
This NY Times headline says it all - emphasis on “Ignored in the U.S…”
Imagine if the NY Times had ignored Terry Jones, which some 300 Million Americans will typically do.
At one point the NY Times exceeded 60 different front page stories on the low-level soldiers abusing Iraqis at Abu Ghraib. No telling how many total stories about this episode graced their front page before they lost interest.
…and they have the audacity to ask, “Why do they hate us?”
My question: Why couldn’t the NY Times ignore Terry Jones?
| 6 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:14:05pm |
re: #1 abolitionist
Well, sort of. Here’s his closing…
I’m an extremist in this debate, I will freely confess. I hold an absolute view that no killing is ever justified, that individuals have the necessity to defend themselves against assailants, but that even that does not grant moral approval to snuffing out the life of another. Don’t even try to pull out a scale and toss a copy of the Koran on one side and the life of a single human being on the other — the comparison is obscene. Do not try to tell me that some people are ‘moderates’ when they tolerate or even support and applaud war and death and murder for any cause, whether it is oil, or getting even, or defending the honor of wood pulp and ink.
I can understand the pacifist argument but it has its own moral bankruptcy. Should we have allowed Germany to exterminate the Jews? Were we right to have not interfered in Rawanda? Darfur? Each particular conflict has its own pros and cons but so sit back, as the richest most powerful country in the world, and willfully allow honorific suffering is lazy and selfish. I would also argue that as a foreign policy it would be very very stupid.
| 7 |
recusancy Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:14:26pm |
A gang of fanatics, driven by superstition and ethnic bigotry, kill thousands in a terrorist attack in one country. So zealots stir up their own froth of superstition and ethnic bigotry, and convince the targeted country to attack and kill people of yet another country that had nothing to do with the terrorist attack. What a waste of lives, yet everyone on both sides is smug and confident that the deaths on the other side were warranted.
| 8 |
recusancy Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:15:42pm |
re: #5 rwmofo
A Koran Burning Ignored in the U.S. Was News in Afghanistan and Pakistan
This NY Times headline says it all - emphasis on “Ignored in the U.S…”
Imagine if the NY Times had ignored Terry Jones, which some 300 Million Americans will typically do.
At one point the NY Times exceeded 60 different front page stories on the low-level soldiers abusing Iraqis at Abu Ghraib. No telling how many total stories about this episode graced their front page before they lost interest.
…and they have the audacity to ask, “Why do they hate us?”
My question: Why couldn’t the NY Times ignore Terry Jones?
So you’re blaming the messenger.
| 9 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:17:15pm |
MULTAN, Pakistan — A pair of Taliban suicide bombers struck one of Pakistan’s most important Sufi Muslim shrines on Sunday, killing 42 people and wounding 100 who were celebrating the anniversary of its founder’s death with music, meditation and other practices abhorred by Islamist militant groups.
(MSNBC)
We need more music and dancing, not less.
| 10 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:20:23pm |
re: #5 rwmofo
A Koran Burning Ignored in the U.S. Was News in Afghanistan and Pakistan
This NY Times headline says it all - emphasis on “Ignored in the U.S…”
Imagine if the NY Times had ignored Terry Jones, which some 300 Million Americans will typically do.
At one point the NY Times exceeded 60 different front page stories on the low-level soldiers abusing Iraqis at Abu Ghraib. No telling how many total stories about this episode graced their front page before they lost interest.
…and they have the audacity to ask, “Why do they hate us?”
My question: Why couldn’t the NY Times ignore Terry Jones?
I’m searching for their article on the original incident. Is there one? Can’t find it.
| 11 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:21:04pm |
| 12 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:21:16pm |
The ignoring of the incident by US media was correct, in my opinion.
If a tree shouts incendiary phrases, and there’s no one to hear it, so much the better.
| 13 |
abolitionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:21:42pm |
re: #6 Killgore Trout
I should amend my comment to This, yes, sort of. I agree with you that “the pacifist argument .. has its own moral bankruptcy.” My intent was to leave the scales reference in context as much as practical.
| 14 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:21:55pm |
re: #1 abolitionist
There is a distinction between killing and murder; I’m with you on abhorring murder; killing may be justified in self defense. But that’s an extreme situation, fortunately.
| 16 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:23:06pm |
re: #9 Ojoe
And that fits in perfectly with my earlier argument. I feel no guilt cheering when a Taliban training camp is destroyed by our missiles. Killing terrorists is a positive thing in my view.
| 17 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:31:44pm |
re: #6 Killgore Trout
Yeah. That’s the bit where I think he probably didn’t even actually mean it that way, but got a little lost in his abstraction.
I think the spirit of the rest of the piece is rather more clearly stated. There’s no real cause for celebration even if you kill someone who was trying to kill you. Sure, it’s better that way, but the situation still sucked from the get-go.
My grandfather fought in WWII, and didn’t support any of the wars we were engaged in after that, not even Korea. His attitudes were pretty similar to Myers, though in his case it came from making landings on the islands held by the Japanese, and seeing the death of so many of his comrades. He felt bad for the guys who enjoyed the killing; to him, it was one way of dealing with the trauma of being forced to do so. It wasn’t a good thing, it was a twisted thing, necessary to survive.
Whenever a civilian would say “Go kill some Japs!” or anything of that nature, he’d hate it. Once he snapped at a guy “Go kill them yourself!”.
He said that the concept most lost on the voting public was that they were asking men to kill for them. Dying people kind of understand. But the emotional and psychological cost of killing another human being, he felt, people didn’t understand at all, and he felt that they were far too cavalier in sending men off to kill.
Does this mean we shouldn’t do so, sometimes? No. But it does mean we should take enormous pause before we do so, and when we do so, it shouldn’t be with cheers for the deaths, but regret at their necessity, and the necessity of men coming home killers.
| 18 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:34:51pm |
Its always really easy to say “Go kill X” because the way the human mind works, you can visualize X as an entity completely separated from humanity. Once you dehumanize the victim, killing them is just another task to perform.
| 19 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:36:38pm |
re: #6 Killgore Trout
Well, sort of. Here’s his closing…
I can understand the pacifist argument but it has its own moral bankruptcy. Should we have allowed Germany to exterminate the Jews? Were we right to have not interfered in Rawanda? Darfur? Each particular conflict has its own pros and cons but so sit back, as the richest most powerful country in the world, and willfully allow honorific suffering is lazy and selfish. I would also argue that as a foreign policy it would be very very stupid.
Agreed - that point got a bit too absolutist. I suspect that if pressed on it, Myers would concede the point that absolute pacifism has its own problems.
| 20 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:37:07pm |
I just listened to a podcast of an interview with a professor from BYU. I won’t post a link because it was very much intended for an LDS audience.
The interesting point that he brought up was that in the Muslim point of view—and I hope I have this right—the Koran itself has more holiness than an average book.
As I said, this was a new idea to me a few days ago, so I may be stating it imperfectly.
| 21 |
BryanS Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:39:34pm |
Thank you for posting this. Although hypocritical hatred from the Christian right is offensive, I was somehow less offended by that than by the murders instigated over an insult carried out on the other side of the globe.
That perspective somehow has gotten loss in the Afghanistan brouhaha.
| 22 |
celticdragon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:39:43pm |
re: #6 Killgore Trout
…that individuals have the necessity to defend themselves against assailants
I think you missed that part. By “killing” , I took him to be speaking of murder, not self defense.
| 23 |
Irenicum Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:40:07pm |
Wow. Thank you Charles for posting this. Amazing and powerful.
| 24 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:42:59pm |
re: #17 Obdicut
Our involvement in WWII caused a lot of pacifism and anti-war sentiment. Especially among people like Kurt Vonnegut, Joseph Heller, etc. But I think it was a just and necessary war. I would also make the same case for the war in Afghanistan. I don’t think there were any realistic alternatives. I think PZ is verging too close to moral equivalence. The Taliban and Al Qaeda are really bad people and Americans cheering the deaths of terrorists is not morally equivalent to Palestinians celebrating the 9-11 attacks by passing out candy. His central argument is there are no shades of grey and all deaths are equal. I just can’t buy into that.
| 25 |
celticdragon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:44:08pm |
re: #16 Killgore Trout
And that fits in perfectly with my earlier argument. I feel no guilt cheering when a Taliban training camp is destroyed by our missiles. Killing terrorists is a positive thing in my view.
Want to see who the next batch of Taliban recruits will be? See who shows up at the funeral. If your brother got smeared across a hillside by a hellfire missile, you might want some payback also.
It never frakking stops.
| 26 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:44:49pm |
re: #19 Charles
Agreed - that point got a bit too absolutist. I suspect that if pressed on it, Myers would concede the point that absolute pacifism has its own problems.
I think he would too but it might take a little arm twisting (metaphorically speaking, of course)
| 27 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:45:19pm |
re: #20 EmmmieG
And I should add that this still does not justify killing anyone.
| 28 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:46:49pm |
re: #24 Killgore Trout
Our involvement in WWII caused a lot of pacifism and anti-war sentiment. Especially among people like Kurt Vonnegut, Joseph Heller, etc. But I think it was a just and necessary war. I would also make the same case for the war in Afghanistan. I don’t think there were any realistic alternatives. I think PZ is verging too close to moral equivalence. The Taliban and Al Qaeda are really bad people and Americans cheering the deaths of terrorists is not morally equivalent to Palestinians celebrating the 9-11 attacks by passing out candy. His central argument is there are no shades of grey and all deaths are equal. I just can’t buy into that.
I do not believe there was any other way to stop Hitler, and perhaps the Japanese Army hierarchy.
Also, there are killers that, when I read of their crimes, my response is to feel that they are too dangerous to be allowed to walk among us.
| 29 |
D. Tomeric Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:48:36pm |
I normally respect PZ a great deal, but on this topic as with a few others I find him to be the definition of a liberal elitist. And I say that as someone who’s defining feature in family conversations is to purposely piss off my Beckian family members.
I’m an extremist in this debate, I will freely confess. I hold an absolute view that no killing is ever justified, that individuals have the necessity to defend themselves against assailants, but that even that does not grant moral approval to snuffing out the life of another.
The only reason PZ can get away with this moral system is because he has been blessed with a life that has never forced him into a situation requiring that someone die. Well, I have. When I was 22 I was mugged while hiking at my local state park. In the process of defending myself my attacker pulled a gun and at the end of it all he had a fatal bullet to the shoulder.
Now do I cheer when I think of this? Absolutely not. It causes daily walking nightmares and has fucked me up something fierce. It wasn’t for months that I was even able to reconstruct exactly what transpired during our fight, and then only with the help of investigators. I did everything in my power to save the bastard but there’s only so much you can do when a .380 round punctures someone’s brachial artery a mile from the nearest road.
So for people to compare what I was forced to do by my attacker (and what others in similar situations are forced to do) to the barbarism of those who would murder innocents over a book is, itself, an act of perverted morality. He doesn’t have a clue, he’s too sheltered, and he has absolutely no grounds to judge me or anyone else who’s had to chose between their own death and that of someone else. Life isn’t a fucking movie, and the notion of “disable but don’t kill” is nice in theory but tossed by the wayside the moment you have a gun shoved in your face.
And no Charles, I doubt PZ would concede the point without some major arm twisting. He’s too good of a writer to post something without meaning exactly what he says. He knew what he was saying, and I’ll be shocked if he honestly backs away from it in any way.
| 30 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:50:27pm |
re: #28 EmmmieG
Also, there are killers that, when I read of their crimes, my response is to feel that they are too dangerous to be allowed to walk among us.
One could argue that over the eons the human race has been improved by the judicious use of the death penalty.
This is a dangerous area in which to operate.
But a friend of mine who spent time in the peace corps in Africa, in a very primitive area which did not have the resources to jail anyone, especially for a long time, said that people who were really bad there, and a danger to others, just tended to disappear.
| 31 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:51:09pm |
re: #25 celticdragon
From your article….
“ISAF forces fired on a vehicle carrying insurgents,” said a statement from Helmand governor Muhammad Gulab Mangal’s office.“The explosion hit another vehicle in which civilians were travelling, and as a result two men, two women and three children were killed and a man, a woman and three other children were wounded.”
Which is part of what makes our enemy so evil. They are fighting out of uniform hidden among a civilian population. The Geneva convention was written to condemn this kind of callous disregard from fighters endangering their own people. We take great care to avoid civilian casualties (as do the Israelis) and work very hard to avoid it. Unless there was gross negligence on the part of our soldiers in the indecent I would place the moral guilt for the civilian deaths on the insurgents for using civilians as cover.
| 32 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:52:08pm |
re: #24 Killgore Trout
I don’t think at all that he’s saying all deaths are equal. I think he’s saying all deaths are final, and all deaths are the end of a human being. In that way, we are all equal. None of us is more or less of a human being than others.
When an illiterate farmer in Afghanistan who grew up being preached Whabbism, with never an exterior idea presented to him outside that, signs up with the Taliban and gets killed by our cruise missile, that’s not a reason to cheer. There are certainly some stories where I think the people led themselves into their own evil, but I do think that a lot of people get cowed, led, scared, manipulated into the evil of others. It’s still their fault and responsibility, but we aren’t all equal. Not everyone has the same amount of willpower, the same intelligence and perspicacity about being lied to and manipulated.
A lot of those Japanese kids that died trying to kill my grandfather did so with their hearts full of love for their country, a bursting desire not to let their parents down, a culture that demanded that any doubt be cast aside as a shameful thing, etc. He didn’t hate them nor was he gladded by their deaths. He was very, very glad when Tojo was hanged, though.
| 33 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:52:35pm |
re: #30 Ojoe
One could argue that over the eons the human race has been improved by the judicious use of the death penalty.
This is a dangerous area in which to operate.
But a friend of mine who spent time in the peace corps in Africa, in a very primitive area which did not have the resources to jail anyone, especially for a long time, said that people who were really bad there, and a danger to others, just tended to disappear.
I would definitely state that the death penalty was overused, historically.
| 34 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:54:59pm |
re: #33 EmmmieG
I would definitely state that the death penalty was overused, historically.
The richer we are, the less we will ever need to use it.
BBL
| 35 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Apr 3, 2011 12:59:53pm |
re: #29 Brew Dad
I think he’s not bothering to define terms like ‘justified’ and ‘moral approval’. Does saying that something doesn’t have moral approval mean it’s got moral disapproval? Is something not being justified the same as it being unjustified?
I don’t think that you can posit his pacifism as simply the result of lacking a confrontation. There were and are plenty of Quakers who have faced someone trying to kill them and still hold to their pacifism, even to the most extreme form.
If he does mean that self-defense is justifiable but that a killing in self-defense is not, then he’s just being unrealistic and is contradicted by physics. As you say, you can’t actually know whether your defense will disable or kill an opponent, so his morality and ethics would be impossible to follow if that’s what he means.
| 36 |
blueraven Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:04:12pm |
re: #12 EmmmieG
The ignoring of the incident by US media was correct, in my opinion.
If a tree shouts incendiary phrases, and there’s no one to hear it, so much the better.
The media largely ignored this Koran burning. But Karzai, the jerk, made a speech about it, demanding that the US arrest Jones or some such shit. Knowing that he is protected under the 1st amendment.
There are many who contributed to this slaughter.
| 37 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:05:53pm |
re: #36 blueraven
Yes. Karzai, I feel, shares a huge amount of the blame for this. He threw away those lives for political gain.
| 38 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:08:08pm |
re: #32 Obdicut
When an illiterate farmer in Afghanistan who grew up being preached Whabbism, with never an exterior idea presented to him outside that, signs up with the Taliban and gets killed by our cruise missile, that’s not a reason to cheer.
Good example. However, almost everybody thinks they’re doing good. Hitler didn’t think he was evil, he thought he was improving the human condition. He really believed that. Slave owners in the south thought the same thing. As for your illiterate farmer, I think we have an example of the grey areas Myers says don’t exist. The farmer’s personal story is sad and he’s a victim of his environment, religion, culture, etc but when I see him prematurely explode in a night vision video taken by drone before he reaches his target at the market place, I cheer. His story may be sad but I’m happy to see him end.
| 39 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:08:38pm |
re: #37 Obdicut
Yes. Karzai, I feel, shares a huge amount of the blame for this. He threw away those lives for political gain.
Anything to deflect from his own corruption
| 40 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:09:12pm |
re: #37 Obdicut
Yes. Karzai, I feel, shares a huge amount of the blame for this. He threw away those lives for political gain.
That’s been his M.O. for awhile now. The man seems to be working on establishing himself as a US-supported dictator, which means keeping the people focused on anything other than his own poor leadership record.
| 41 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:11:19pm |
| 42 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:11:59pm |
re: #38 Killgore Trout
Sad has hell, but he needs to die if we can kill him.
| 43 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:13:30pm |
| 44 |
goddamnedfrank Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:13:57pm |
re: #31 Killgore Trout
From your article…
Which is part of what makes our enemy so evil. They are fighting out of uniform hidden among a civilian population. The Geneva convention was written to condemn this kind of callous disregard from fighters endangering their own people. We take great care to avoid civilian casualties (as do the Israelis) and work very hard to avoid it. Unless there was gross negligence on the part of our soldiers in the indecent I would place the moral guilt for the civilian deaths on the insurgents for using civilians as cover.
They see themselves as occupied, maybe they watched to much American cinema like Red Dawn. What about the seven kids killed chopping wood the celticdragon asked you about? I think you have the luxury of placing moral guilt where it’s most convenient for you simply because your own family aren’t the ones being killed. The point has more to do with practicality than morality, at which point an eye for an eye starts to cause mass blindness.
| 45 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:14:17pm |
re: #38 Killgore Trout
I can’t get on board with that happiness, though. To me it’s just another waste of human life. The ending of it prevents harm, so it’s a good thing, but a man’s still dead and his life was a waste. I can cheer the safety of those he was going to attack. Cheering his death, for me, doesn’t work, because I don’t know how he got there, and I don’t know how the person who killed him feels.
| 46 |
Romantic Heretic Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:15:20pm |
re: #38 Killgore Trout
Good example. However, almost everybody thinks they’re doing good. Hitler didn’t think he was evil, he thought he was improving the human condition. He really believed that. Slave owners in the south thought the same thing. As for your illiterate farmer, I think we have an example of the grey areas Myers says don’t exist. The farmer’s personal story is sad and he’s a victim of his environment, religion, culture, etc but when I see him prematurely explode in a night vision video taken by drone before he reaches his target at the market place, I cheer. His story may be sad but I’m happy to see him end.
Such a death may be necessary, but it’s not a good thing. Death shouldn’t be a source of joy.
| 47 |
celticdragon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:16:49pm |
re: #31 Killgore Trout
From your article…
Which is part of what makes our enemy so evil. They are fighting out of uniform hidden among a civilian population. The Geneva convention was written to condemn this kind of callous disregard from fighters endangering their own people. We take great care to avoid civilian casualties (as do the Israelis) and work very hard to avoid it. Unless there was gross negligence on the part of our soldiers in the indecent I would place the moral guilt for the civilian deaths on the insurgents for using civilians as cover.
To some extent, the indig population and the enemy are one and the same…sometimes, and other times not so much.
Confusing?
Yeah, it is. Now, throw in opium druglords, poppy farmers, religious fanatics and millions of old Soviet automatic weapons.
Fun for the whole family.
| 48 |
celticdragon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:17:13pm |
re: #44 goddamnedfrank
They see themselves as occupied, maybe they watched to much American cinema like Red Dawn. What about the seven kids killed chopping wood the celticdragon asked you about? I think you have the luxury of placing moral guilt where it’s most convenient for you simply because your own family aren’t the ones being killed. The point has more to do with practicality than morality, at which point an eye for an eye starts to cause mass blindness.
Exactly.
| 49 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:20:15pm |
re: #45 Obdicut
I can’t get on board with that happiness, though. To me it’s just another waste of human life. The ending of it prevents harm, so it’s a good thing, but a man’s still dead and his life was a waste. I can cheer the safety of those he was going to attack. Cheering his death, for me, doesn’t work, because I don’t know how he got there, and I don’t know how the person who killed him feels.
Loss of life is always tragic, whether it be one fool who didn’t know better or a dozen of his victims. We may take some comfort in that he was not able to complete his mission, but should not take joy in his death.
| 50 |
funky chicken Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:23:32pm |
re: #25 celticdragon
Want to see who the next batch of Taliban recruits will be? See who shows up at the funeral. If your brother got smeared across a hillside by a hellfire missile, you might want some payback also.
It never frakking stops.
And these boys could have been running errands for the Taliban. Who really knows? But I agree that our presence isn’t improving the situation. They don’t want us there, and I don’t think we should stay.
| 51 |
engineer cat Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:23:34pm |
“Obama is not a brown-skinned anti-war socialist who gives away free healthcare. You’re thinking of Jesus.” - John Fugelsang
| 52 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:24:29pm |
re: #44 goddamnedfrank
What about the seven kids killed chopping wood the celticdragon asked you about? I think you have the luxury of placing moral guilt where it’s most convenient for you simply because your own family aren’t the ones being killed.
Not true. If it were my family I would still place the blame on the insurgents for hiding among civilians. Unless there was gross negligence on the part of our military then the moral blame would be on the insurgents. While we’re flipping around hypothetical situations, let’s suppose our military disguised themselves as civilians and stationed themselves in villages and cities. Who would you blame for the resulting civilian casualties?
| 53 |
celticdragon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:26:32pm |
re: #50 funky chicken
And these boys could have been running errands for the Taliban.
Under those kinds of suppositions, we can justify butchering every living human in the country. They might have been on the other side. Safer to kill them all and have done with it, right?
/
| 54 |
goddamnedfrank Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:27:27pm |
re: #49 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Loss of life is always tragic, whether it be one fool who didn’t know better or a dozen of his victims. We may take some comfort in that he was not able to complete his mission, but should not take joy in his death.
We should assume that his death will result in spawning two more just like him, like Sammael from Hellboy, and then try to feel joyous.
| 56 |
celticdragon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:28:14pm |
re: #50 funky chicken
I wasn’t trying to attack you with that. I was just pointing out the logical end of the that line of thinking if taken to the extreme.
| 57 |
Varek Raith Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:28:41pm |
re: #50 funky chicken
And these boys could have been running errands for the Taliban. Who really knows? But I agree that our presence isn’t improving the situation. They don’t want us there, and I don’t think we should stay.
Let’s just carpet bomb them then? Shit, they all may be running errands for the Taliban. We just don’t know.
/Ridiculous.
| 58 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:29:08pm |
I just did a quick scroll through the comments on PZ’s blog. They are interpreting it as fundamentalist pacifism and seem to universally agree.
| 59 |
Lidane Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:30:52pm |
re: #5 rwmofo
So both the Qu’ran burning and the UN killings are the NYT’s fault?
| 60 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:31:12pm |
re: #52 Killgore Trout
Not true. If it were my family I would still place the blame on the insurgents for hiding among civilians. Unless there was gross negligence on the part of our military then the moral blame would be on the insurgents. While we’re flipping around hypothetical situations, let’s suppose our military disguised themselves as civilians and stationed themselves in villages and cities. Who would you blame for the resulting civilian casualties?
I’d blame both sides. They both know what the outcome is, do it anyway, and innocents suffer for it.
| 61 |
Varek Raith Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:31:19pm |
re: #59 Lidane
So both the Qu’ran burning and the UN killings are the NYT’s fault?
It’s what he does.
;)
| 62 |
celticdragon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:31:42pm |
re: #52 Killgore Trout
Not true. If it were my family I would still place the blame on the insurgents for hiding among civilians. Unless there was gross negligence on the part of our military then the moral blame would be on the insurgents. While we’re flipping around hypothetical situations, let’s suppose our military disguised themselves as civilians and stationed themselves in villages and cities. Who would you blame for the resulting civilian casualties?
Would you?
Really?
Keep in the mind the insurgents look like you, speak your language, share your religion and very likely were people you gave known since childhood.
The people who killed your loved one are from a different country, have a very different culture and religious values and do not speak your language at all. They fly around in helicopters and blow stuff up, from your perspective, and your religious leaders whom your were raised to respect tell you that they hate your beliefs and are here to force you to bow to a foreign God.
Now, try your assumptions again…
| 63 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:32:11pm |
re: #54 goddamnedfrank
We should assume that his death will result in spawning two more just like him, like Sammael from Hellboy, and then try to feel joyous.
Seems to be the case, all too often. We kill one guy, only to inspire his father, his brothers, his sons, even his wife and daughters, to take up arms to “avenge” him. In some cases, they didn’t even believe in the whole fundamentalist BS, they’re simply doing it to fight against his “murderers.”
| 64 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:33:09pm |
re: #57 Varek Raith
Let’s just carpet bomb them then? Shit, they all may be running errands for the Taliban. We just don’t know.
/Ridiculous.
In fairness, the site hosting the story is not a credible source. The story may be true, maybe not but as a hypothetical situation I see no problem with that. We’ve seen the radical left and Islamists promote bogus stories of American Imperialist war crimes against civilians for years so I automatically take this stuff with a grain of salt. Just like with the Collateral Murder story from Wikileaks, they’ll promote it as long as it fits their agenda and ignore the truth when it come out. It is what it is,
| 65 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:33:49pm |
| 66 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:34:09pm |
re: #29 Brew Dad
I normally respect PZ a great deal, but on this topic as with a few others I find him to be the definition of a liberal elitist. And I say that as someone who’s defining feature in family conversations is to purposely piss off my Beckian family members.
The only reason PZ can get away with this moral system is because he has been blessed with a life that has never forced him into a situation requiring that someone die. Well, I have. When I was 22 I was mugged while hiking at my local state park. In the process of defending myself my attacker pulled a gun and at the end of it all he had a fatal bullet to the shoulder.
Now do I cheer when I think of this? Absolutely not. It causes daily walking nightmares and has fucked me up something fierce. It wasn’t for months that I was even able to reconstruct exactly what transpired during our fight, and then only with the help of investigators. I did everything in my power to save the bastard but there’s only so much you can do when a .380 round punctures someone’s brachial artery a mile from the nearest road.
So for people to compare what I was forced to do by my attacker (and what others in similar situations are forced to do) to the barbarism of those who would murder innocents over a book is, itself, an act of perverted morality. He doesn’t have a clue, he’s too sheltered, and he has absolutely no grounds to judge me or anyone else who’s had to chose between their own death and that of someone else. Life isn’t a fucking movie, and the notion of “disable but don’t kill” is nice in theory but tossed by the wayside the moment you have a gun shoved in your face.
And no Charles, I doubt PZ would concede the point without some major arm twisting. He’s too good of a writer to post something without meaning exactly what he says. He knew what he was saying, and I’ll be shocked if he honestly backs away from it in any way.
Yeah. This.
I respect greatly what he is saying about the sanctity of life, and the moral weight of taking a life under any circumstances, but (like most of us here), I do feel that there are times when killing is simply what you must do.
As a species, though, I’d say we definitely exceed our ‘must’ quota every fucking day.
| 67 |
Varek Raith Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:34:38pm |
re: #64 Killgore Trout
In fairness, the site hosting the story is not a credible source. The story may be true, maybe not but as a hypothetical situation I see no problem with that. We’ve seen the radical left and Islamists promote bogus stories of American Imperialist war crimes against civilians for years so I automatically take this stuff with a grain of salt. Just like with the Collateral Murder story from Wikileaks, they’ll promote it as long as it fits their agenda and ignore the truth when it come out. It is what it is,
That is true.
Sorry for going off on you, Funky Chicken.
| 68 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:35:20pm |
re: #62 celticdragon
Would you?
Really?
Keep in the mind the insurgents look like you, speak your language, share your religion and very likely were people you gave known since childhood.
The people who killed your loved one are from a different country, have a very different culture and religious values and do not speak your language at all. They fly around in helicopters and blow stuff up, from your perspective, and your religious leaders whom your were raised to respect tell you that they hate your beliefs and are here to force you to bow to a foreign God.
Now, try your assumptions again…
They also tell you that, by taking up arms, your deity of choice will protect you and give you the power to defeat the “infidels.” That yours is a holy mission, and that fighting it will ensure you a place in paradise.
| 69 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:36:45pm |
re: #68 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
They also tell you that, by taking up arms, your deity of choice will protect you and give you the power to defeat the “infidels.” That yours is a holy mission, and that fighting it will ensure you a place in paradise.
They should make cartoons and stuff to do that. Oh, wait…
///
| 70 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:38:08pm |
| 71 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:39:41pm |
re: #58 Killgore Trout
I just did a quick scroll through the comments on PZ’s blog. They are interpreting it as fundamentalist pacifism and seem to universally agree.
I’m not seeing many who are acknowledging the fundamental problem in saying that defense against an aggressor is allowed but no killing is ever justified.
And I saw about four or five comments there diverging from him, one guy (cor) from a rather nutty perspective, but quite a few other posters pointing out the problem.
Like this:
How do we stop those who want to kill, without using violence against them ourselves?
And how do we stop the psychopaths who manipulate others to do the killing — the psychopaths who can read every one of those examples, and feel nothing, absolutely no trace of emotion, except possibly amused contempt or glee?
| 72 |
celticdragon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:41:04pm |
re: #65 Killgore Trout
Yes, that’s why I said it.
Then explain how it is you arrive at an answer that most of the indig population in Afghanistan do not arrive at.
Do you a magical explanation for why your cultural values and assumptions would differ radically from everybody else you grew up with?
Keep in mind that over 90% of Afghans have never heard of the 9/11 attacks.
That’s right. Over 90%. No newspapers, TV or internet.
They have no idea why we are even there to begin with, so they think we are illegal invaders. Tell me again why you arrive at the “blame the insurgents” answer when it looks to all your neighbors like the guys in the helicopters are just another bunch who hate Islam.
You are bringing your attitudes as an informed American into the equation, and that is utter hogwash when you are trying to explain what you would do if you where an Afgan villager. Your fallacy is called ethnocentrism.
| 73 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:45:34pm |
PZ has lost me here.
He has the luxury of his moral position because others will do his killing for him. Now, transferring that responsibility to the state is part of the social contract in a civilized society but it is simply hypocritical to condemn the morality of a process that is necessary for your very survival.
PZ can call the police if kooks show up at this house with the idea of murdering him. Assuming they arrive in time, how would they prevent his murder? With any luck, they could disarm the miscreants and cart them away to jail. Ultimately, though, their ability to do so would rest on at least the implied threat of lethal force.
I do not believe in the sincerity of pacifists. I believe it is usually (though not always) about two things:
Status: I am so superior that I can hire lesser mortals to do my dirty work and even get away with abusing them for it.
Activism: The pacifist is sympathetic to whomever he is trying to persuade us not to kill. Did any pacifist suggest that the NVA were in the wrong for killing American soldiers who were in the country they claimed as theirs?
Has any pacifist said the same about Iraq or Afghanistan? I have not seen it, and I have looked pretty hard. So, obviously, their absolute opposition to killing is no such thing: It is conditional on their own political ideology and objectives. In that, they are no different from the perpetrators of organized aggression.
As much as I have always respected and liked PZ, I cannot believe that even he is sincere about this. His objective though appears to be one I can respect: I think he is trying to draw attention to what a serious thing it is to destroy a human life. To say the least, this society (meaning global society) is far too casual about killing its own kind. Simply destroying opponents or those who offend is a great temptation for the leadership. Worse, they have invented and refined a million ways to rationalize it. It’s tempting to blame this casual acceptance of killing on violent media culture, etc. but it was like this, and often much worse, before modern media even existed.
I really don’t have a solution. What I really suspect is that this is where we are on the evolutionary scale. I think we are making progress, slowly and haltingly, but it will be thousands of years before people stop killing each other, if ever. I would love to be proven wrong but I don’t see much evidence that I am.
| 74 |
abolitionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:46:26pm |
re: #72 celticdragon
I appreciate efforts by that newsman who was showing pics of the 911 attacks to ordinary Afghanis in the first few days after the event.
| 75 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:46:53pm |
re: #3 Obdicut
I don’t entirely agree with him but I appreciate the hell out of his point of view.
Nor do I agree. Killing people is never a good thing, but sometimes it is the only thing that can stop unjust aggression. But I don’t really respect the pacifist point of view. I find supremely unrealistic and demoralizing when there are enemies who have to be killed. But my own thought on such cases can be based summed up by a song by The Police:
“Once that you’ve decided that you’ve decided on a killing,
First, you make a stone of your heart…”
I’m not saying I want or like the idea of killing, but I do think its a rare necessity and when truly needed should be done as ruthlessly as needs be.
| 76 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:47:20pm |
re: #59 Lidane
So both the Qu’ran burning and the UN killings are the NYT’s fault?
I still want to see a link to the NYTimes coverage of the actual Koran burning.
| 77 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:48:54pm |
re: #72 celticdragon
I explained my position and won’t continue to reiterate no matter how many times you ask me to change it. I spoke for myself and nobody else. You’re furiously trying to create a strawman instead of having a serious discussion. I’m not going to adopt your characature of my opinion so just stop trying. I’m not falling for it..
| 78 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:49:54pm |
re: #75 Dark_Falcon
I’m not saying I want or like the idea of killing, but I do think its a rare necessity and when truly needed should be done as ruthlessly as needs be.
Sherman’s approach, which in the big picture is the most humane, actually.
| 79 |
Lidane Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:50:08pm |
re: #75 Dark_Falcon
I’m not saying I want or like the idea of killing, but I do think its a rare necessity and when truly needed should be done as ruthlessly as needs be.
The people who like killing are either in prison for it or are sitting at their keyboards fantasizing about being Rambo taking out all of Al Qaeda on their own.
The rest of us may not care for it, but can see situations where it can be justified.
| 80 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:50:09pm |
re: #73 Shiplord Kirel
I agree with you that PZ’s position is, in the end, unworkable, given that he allows for defending oneself— justifies it— but says no killing is justified. Sometimes, self-defense involves killing, intentional or no. That position of his is either badly stated or simply ingongruent with reality.
I hope he follows up this post and deals with this. It’s a major flaw.
But this bit:
Activism: The pacifist is sympathetic to whomever he is trying to persuade us not to kill. Did any pacifist suggest that the NVA were in the wrong for killing American soldiers who were in the country they claimed as theirs?
Has any pacifist said the same about Iraq or Afghanistan?
Well, yes. Myers spent quite a good deal of this essay saying that, painting the sympathetic portraits of American soldiers dying, saying that the killers were in the wrong, no matter who they are.
| 81 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:50:21pm |
re: #63 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Seems to be the case, all too often. We kill one guy, only to inspire his father, his brothers, his sons, even his wife and daughters, to take up arms to “avenge” him. In some cases, they didn’t even believe in the whole fundamentalist BS, they’re simply doing it to fight against his “murderers.”
Avenging a family member is a solemn obligation in many cultures.
Recall this story, which was posted yesterday. And this dude’s a rugby player from South Africa.
The need to revenge goes deep, and in many societies is not optional.
| 82 |
McSpiff Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:50:38pm |
re: #32 Obdicut
I don’t think at all that he’s saying all deaths are equal. I think he’s saying all deaths are final, and all deaths are the end of a human being. In that way, we are all equal. None of us is more or less of a human being than others.
When an illiterate farmer in Afghanistan who grew up being preached Whabbism, with never an exterior idea presented to him outside that, signs up with the Taliban and gets killed by our cruise missile, that’s not a reason to cheer. There are certainly some stories where I think the people led themselves into their own evil, but I do think that a lot of people get cowed, led, scared, manipulated into the evil of others. It’s still their fault and responsibility, but we aren’t all equal. Not everyone has the same amount of willpower, the same intelligence and perspicacity about being lied to and manipulated.
A lot of those Japanese kids that died trying to kill my grandfather did so with their hearts full of love for their country, a bursting desire not to let their parents down, a culture that demanded that any doubt be cast aside as a shameful thing, etc. He didn’t hate them nor was he gladded by their deaths. He was very, very glad when Tojo was hanged, though.
You are a seriously good writer Obi. Always insightful.
| 83 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:51:07pm |
I think that burning a Koran is a stupid, immature thing to do. The only purpose is to inflame passions. Not self defense, not education, and certainly not promoting understanding.
HOWEVER I remember the violence that came from the RUMOR that someone had placed a Koran in a toilet. It wasn’t even true, and the outrage led to violence.
Like the dog food that makes it’s own gravy, these crazies make their own outrage.
IMO, they don’t have to wait for someone to start… they are self starting.
| 84 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:51:56pm |
re: #69 Cannadian Club Akbar
They should make cartoons and stuff to do that. Oh, wait…
///
Anyone seen the Terry Jones (different Terry Jones) miniseries on the Crusades, where he shows peasants watching a propaganda film on why they should on Crusade?
“The Pope says GO!! Your bishop says GO!!!”
| 85 |
Summer Seale Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:52:02pm |
It’s too late for me to write everything I want to write about this subject. PZ is always a great writer though.
I will just say that Sam Harris has pointed out the essence of this before though: it is a sad fact that we live in a world where religious extremist Christians are the only ones who are calling out the other side for their religious insanity, and that we need to wake up as a moderate community and take the points away from them and have that conversation instead amongst ourselves.
He regularly gets blasted by his own side for saying it when everyone flat out knows just how critical he is of other religions that they are fond of criticizing as well. But I think that he is right.
If you want to see exactly what I mean that he talks about, where he addresses these issues and the issues presented to him (especially in the Q&A afterwards), I suggest you watch this very long presentation that is completely worth seeing more than once to absorb it all:
[Link: fora.tv…]
He is an amazing logician, rationalist, thinker, philosopher, and speaker. I highly recommend viewing it.
Goodnight everyone. =)
| 86 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:52:33pm |
re: #71 Obdicut
I’m not seeing many who are acknowledging the fundamental problem in saying that defense against an aggressor is allowed but no killing is ever justified.
And I saw about four or five comments there diverging from him, one guy (cor) from a rather nutty perspective, but quite a few other posters pointing out the problem.
Like this:
I can go with ‘defense is allowed, but no killing is ever a wholly positive thing’.
| 87 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:53:17pm |
re: #83 Buck
IMO, they don’t have to wait for someone to start… they are self starting.
They did not need a burnt Koran, or a flushed one, or Gitmo, in order to fly planes into the WTC.
| 88 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:53:55pm |
re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist
Avenging a family member is a solemn obligation in many cultures.
Recall this story, which was posted yesterday. And this dude’s a rugby player from South Africa.
The need to revenge goes deep, and in many societies is not optional.
Ayep. Even in our own “civilized” society, you see many instances of revenge being a driving motive (See: Hatfields v. McCoys), though nowadays we tend to frown upon “vigilante justice,” prefering instead to use a more “civilized” manner: suing for “wrongful death.”
| 89 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:54:25pm |
re: #83 Buck
I think that burning a Koran is a stupid, immature thing to do. The only purpose is to inflame passions. Not self defense, not education, and certainly not promoting understanding.
HOWEVER I remember the violence that came from the RUMOR that someone had placed a Koran in a toilet. It wasn’t even true, and the outrage led to violence.
Like the dog food that makes it’s own gravy, these crazies make their own outrage.
IMO, they don’t have to wait for someone to start… they are self starting.
So, holding signs that say ” Behead those who insult Islam” is a bad thing?
/Need I?
| 90 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:55:59pm |
re: #78 Ojoe
Sherman’s approach, which in the big picture is the most humane, actually.
Exactly. He was ruthless as Hell during the war but stopped being so as soon as it was over. However, Sherman’s march does tie into another point about Afghanistan; That of lasting hatred of the enemy. Sherman’s scorched earth tactics eliminated Mississippi, Georgia, and South Carolina’s ability to continue to support the war, but the price was a hatred of the North that has still lives unto this very day. It meant that segregationist Democrats would govern those places for 4 generations before the hate diminished enough for things to change.
| 91 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:56:16pm |
And to Killgore’s point:
Could anyone blame American troops cheering if they saw a german plane get shot down in WWII?
Could anyone blame a father feeling happy if he shot a man attacking his children? And feeling fully justified?
Perhaps Myers could. I couldn’t. I’d be sad that the situation had came about at all, but for anyone actually intimately involved, asking them to react in some ideal emotional way is rather missing the point. I don’t think Myers is talking about combatants as much as spectators.
But even when he’s talking about spectators, he’s overlooking the human capacity for sympathy and empathy. Killgore’s reaction, to me, seems to come from identifying with the victim, with their loved ones. So the cheering is not really the death of the other on its own, but that they died before they could do harm, or do more harm.
I think that is a completely valid moral and ethical point of view that Myers doesn’t treat very well. He seems to place too much moral judgement on an emotional reaction, rather than an actual action, and thus takes away much from his argument.
| 92 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:56:38pm |
re: #83 Buck
I think that burning a Koran is a stupid, immature thing to do. The only purpose is to inflame passions. Not self defense, not education, and certainly not promoting understanding.
HOWEVER I remember the violence that came from the RUMOR that someone had placed a Koran in a toilet. It wasn’t even true, and the outrage led to violence.
Like the dog food that makes it’s own gravy, these crazies make their own outrage.
IMO, they don’t have to wait for someone to start… they are self starting.
I do agree that the act was hardly necessary for the response to take place. My condemnation of Jones stems from the fact that he KNEW the response would take place, and decided that his right to burn a Koran was more important than his obligation not to put innocents in harm’s way.
But a rumor would have worked as well, a lie would have worked—the situation did not depend on Terry Jones being a schmuck, he just was a schmuck.
| 93 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:56:40pm |
re: #83 Buck
IMO, they don’t have to wait for someone to start… they are self starting.
Hypothetical situation: there is a crazy guy that has shot people before and will probably obtain another gun on his own, given enough time.
Should I be critical if you want to give him an assault rifle right now?
| 94 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:57:10pm |
re: #90 Dark_Falcon
That is an excellent point, Dark.
| 95 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:57:52pm |
re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist
That’s gorgeous.
If you like that, you might or might not also like these:
I happened upon that stuff quite by accident when I was about 17 or so (“hey, let’s see what weird stuff we can find in the $1.99 bin at Tower Records”) and I inadvertently became a semi-fan.
| 96 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 1:59:10pm |
But a rumor would have worked as well, a lie would have worked—the situation did not depend on Terry Jones being a schmuck, he just was a schmuck.
Weren’t the Mohammed cartoons in Denmark or where ever 6 months old?
| 97 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:00:08pm |
To put it another way: I find it a lot easier to understand people who support the death penalty because they believe that person will kill again, and killing them prevents this, or that a death penalty serves as a deterrent, than I do someone who supports the death penalty for the purpose of revenge.
| 98 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:02:11pm |
re: #91 Obdicut
And to Killgore’s point:
Could anyone blame American troops cheering if they saw a german plane get shot down in WWII?
Could anyone blame a father feeling happy if he shot a man attacking his children? And feeling fully justified?
Perhaps Myers could. I couldn’t. I’d be sad that the situation had came about at all, but for anyone actually intimately involved, asking them to react in some ideal emotional way is rather missing the point. I don’t think Myers is talking about combatants as much as spectators.
But even when he’s talking about spectators, he’s overlooking the human capacity for sympathy and empathy. Killgore’s reaction, to me, seems to come from identifying with the victim, with their loved ones. So the cheering is not really the death of the other on its own, but that they died before they could do harm, or do more harm.
I think that is a completely valid moral and ethical point of view that Myers doesn’t treat very well. He seems to place too much moral judgement on an emotional reaction, rather than an actual action, and thus takes away much from his argument.
Quite Concur.
| 99 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:03:14pm |
re: #97 Obdicut
The death penalty is carried out because a person or persons plan to carry out a killing. It might just be one person and no others. There are many who just kill for one reason, but then again there are Ted Bundys and other serial killers.
| 100 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:03:47pm |
re: #96 Cannadian Club Akbar
But a rumor would have worked as well, a lie would have worked—the situation did not depend on Terry Jones being a schmuck, he just was a schmuck.
Weren’t the Mohammed cartoons in Denmark or where ever 6 months old?
When the trouble over them began? Quite probably.
| 101 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:05:02pm |
re: #100 SanFranciscoZionist
When the trouble over them began? Quite probably.
And if I remember correctly, brought up by a Muslim Iman after the fact.
| 102 |
abolitionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:05:17pm |
re: #96 Cannadian Club Akbar
But a rumor would have worked as well, a lie would have worked—the situation did not depend on Terry Jones being a schmuck, he just was a schmuck.
Weren’t the Mohammed cartoons in Denmark or where ever 6 months old?
The violence erupted after an imam took the genuine cartoons on an exhibition tour, supplemented by some others. In other words, he lied to stir up shit. Maybe those lies would have been ineffective had the cartoons been more widely published earlier, or maybe not.
| 103 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:06:04pm |
I’m going to post this vid now. It’s sums up some of my feelings of dire circumstances such we are now discussing:
| 104 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:06:11pm |
re: #101 Cannadian Club Akbar
And if I remember correctly, brought up by a Muslim Iman after the fact.
I assume so.
These aren’t grassroots responses to what’s on Yahoo in the morning, no.
| 105 |
Stanley Sea Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:07:05pm |
I totally appreciate the depth and insight in this discussion, with this tough subject.
BUT at this moment I want to lighten it up for a sec.
This is how rich people express their problems. With brunch metaphors.
[Link: notesfromthestall.com…]
| 106 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:08:22pm |
But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for any thing. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter.
W.T. Sherman
| 107 |
recusancy Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:08:33pm |
Time for Peter King to hold a congressional hearing on Irish radicalization? [Link: www.guardian.co.uk…]
| 109 |
blueraven Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:09:07pm |
re: #89 Cannadian Club Akbar
So, holding signs that say ” Behead those who insult Islam” is a bad thing?
/Need I?
So Jones was just testing their resolve?
| 110 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:09:25pm |
re: #103 Dark_Falcon
I’m going to post this vid now. It’s sums up some of my feelings of dire circumstances such we are now discussing:
[Video]
“I’m not a coward,
I’ve just never been tested.
I’d like to think if I was I would pass.
Look at the tested and think:
‘There but for the Grace go I’.
Might be a coward,
I’m afraid of what I might find out.”
| 111 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:10:28pm |
re: #105 Stanley Sea
I totally appreciate the depth and insight in this discussion, with this tough subject.
BUT at this moment I want to lighten it up for a sec.
This is how rich people express their problems. With brunch metaphors.
[Link: notesfromthestall.com…]
You ruined my brunch. I will now be forced to eat what is under my fingernails.
/Ewww!!. Scalp, private places, etc…
| 112 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:11:48pm |
re: #107 recusancy
Time for Peter King to hold a congressional hearing on Irish radicalization? [Link: www.guardian.co.uk…]
| 113 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:11:50pm |
re: #109 blueraven
So Jones was just testing their resolve?
Jones made the top of MyListTM of douche bags. He is his own priivate freak show.
| 114 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:12:47pm |
I made a post on Myers’ blog that was somewhat critical of his position. BUt hopefully showed that I overall appreciated it.
| 116 |
SidewaysQuark Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:13:56pm |
re: #16 Killgore Trout
And that fits in perfectly with my earlier argument. I feel no guilt cheering when a Taliban training camp is destroyed by our missiles. Killing terrorists is a positive thing in my view.
One can solemnly appreciate the necessity of a decisive, violent action without cheering for it….just sayin’….
| 117 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:16:55pm |
re: #109 blueraven
So Jones was just testing their resolve?
Here’s the thing, and if this is moral relativism, so be it:
I can think anything I want about radical imams in Afghanistan and those who listen to them, but I really don’t know who these people are on anything but an intellectual level. We have no common cultural ground. I don’t know what social pressures there are, or what their world picture is, except what I can glean from media reports. So while I may look on in horror at this, or at witch-burning in Kenya, or at slaughter in Congo, or whatever, I really can’t engage in significant dialogue, other than to say “Holy shit”, or “Oh God, that’s awful”, or “What happens to the women and kids now that the UN aid workers are dead or leaving?”
I share a culture with Terry Jones. I share a country, a language, a national context. I can get personal about how he has screwed up, and why. Similarly with Bill Ayers. Or Ovadiah Yosef. These are people close enough to my reality that I can actually denounce them personally, and with anger.
There’s a difference, and it’s not one of letting the Afghan killers off the hook, simply one of not feeling connected enough to them to see them as more than an amorphous Bad Thing.
| 118 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:16:55pm |
re: #116 SidewaysQuark
One can solemnly appreciate the necessity of a decisive, violent action without cheering for it…just sayin’…
But someone is cheering for the violent action to make it happen. It’s called ego. And I cheer when I hear bad people are dead, for full disclosure.
| 119 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:17:54pm |
re: #91 Obdicut
And to Killgore’s point:
Could anyone blame American troops cheering if they saw a german plane get shot down in WWII?
Could anyone blame a father feeling happy if he shot a man attacking his children? And feeling fully justified?
Perhaps Myers could. I couldn’t. I’d be sad that the situation had came about at all, but for anyone actually intimately involved, asking them to react in some ideal emotional way is rather missing the point. I don’t think Myers is talking about combatants as much as spectators.
But even when he’s talking about spectators, he’s overlooking the human capacity for sympathy and empathy. Killgore’s reaction, to me, seems to come from identifying with the victim, with their loved ones. So the cheering is not really the death of the other on its own, but that they died before they could do harm, or do more harm.
I think that is a completely valid moral and ethical point of view that Myers doesn’t treat very well. He seems to place too much moral judgement on an emotional reaction, rather than an actual action, and thus takes away much from his argument.
One miserable afternoon in 1972, I happened to be flying a Huey slick near An Loc in what was then South Vietnam. There was a road to my right and a few hundred feet below. We knew the NVA was using tanks in the area, something of a novelty since I had never actually seen an enemy tank before. I saw something pull onto the road about half a kilometer away. It was hard to see, a dirty green color and overed with branches. I resolved it soon enough and realized that it was in fact, an enemy tank, a T-54 or 55. I had no sooner spotted it than one of our escorting Cobras peeled away, approached to what seemed a suicidally short range and fired a salvo of rockets. At least two of them hit the tank, the unimpressive little puffs they make on metal are easy to distinguish from ground impacts. The tank kept moving for a second or so, then a white hot jet of flame erupted from the turret rim and the hatches and kept burning like some sort of Roman candle. It shot fifty feet in the air and blended into a sinister pall of very black smoke.
My first reaction was not to cheer. It was to think, “Shit, there are four guys in that,” followed immediately by the more usual “Better them than me.”
Then someone cheered on the radio, our sports indoctrination set in, and we joined in. This was brief of course, radio discipline being what it is. It really is joy, at one’s own continued survival, at a success in an appointed task, and in the proof of your comrades’ proficiency. The latter of course is a matter of life and death. The cheering and casual sports motif are mostly ways to mask the horror, though, and keep going until you either die yourself or you return to a world where such things are not the stuff of everyday life.
| 120 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:19:43pm |
“Don’t cheer, boys. The poor devils are dying.”
| 121 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:21:14pm |
re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist
“Don’t cheer, boys. The poor devils are dying.”
“Killing is my business and business is good.”
| 122 |
iceweasel Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:21:29pm |
re: #75 Dark_Falcon
Nor do I agree. Killing people is never a good thing, but sometimes it is the only thing that can stop unjust aggression. But I don’t really respect the pacifist point of view. I find supremely unrealistic and demoralizing when there are enemies who have to be killed. But my own thought on such cases can be based summed up by a song by The Police:
“Once that you’ve decided that you’ve decided on a killing,
First, you make a stone of your heart…”[Video
Yeats, Easter 1916
Too long a sacrifice
Can make a stone of the heart.
O when may it suffice?
That is Heaven’s part, our part
To murmur name upon name,
As a mother names her child
When sleep at last has come
On limbs that had run wild.
What is it but nightfall?
No, no, not night but death;
Was it needless death after all?
For England may keep faith
For all that is done and said.
We know their dream; enough
To know they dreamed and are dead;
And what if excess of love
Bewildered them till they died?
I write it out in a verse -
MacDonagh and MacBride
And Connolly and Pearse
Now and in time to be,
Wherever green is worn,
Are changed, changed utterly:
A terrible beauty is born.
| 123 |
McSpiff Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:22:44pm |
I’m pretty firmly in the “killing changes everything” camp. Changes things in a big way for the person being killed, but also changes everything for those who knew him, etc. And from my limited experience with people who have had to take a life, it generally changes them too. And that cascades out as well.
That’s not a value judgement on my part. Not all those changes are negative. But I think it can be impossible for any of us to know how killing someone will affect us. In some ways I feel that’s equally part of the ultimate sacrifice we ask those in the military to make as laying down their lives. We ask them to step into the unknown.
So I do understand the necessity of some killings. There are absolutely situations in which I’d take a life. But I think the absolute weight of the situation means that it should never be celebrated. The act itself is never a good thing. Needed, with positive outcomes, etc, but never in and of itself a good thing.
| 124 |
SidewaysQuark Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:23:57pm |
I wonder how the commentary here would differ if, instead of a display of religious bigotry, this was an event related to really tasteless art display? Say it was an avant-garde work called “Flaming Koran”, in the vain of “Piss Christ”….
| 125 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:24:17pm |
Really great comments in this thread, folks.
| 126 |
McSpiff Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:25:17pm |
re: #124 SidewaysQuark
I wonder how the commentary here would differ if, instead of a display of religious bigotry, this was an event related to really tasteless art display? Say it was an avant-garde work called “Flaming Koran”, in the vain of “Piss Christ”…
For me it still comes down to intent. Its the difference between the cartoons and this for me.
| 127 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:25:44pm |
re: #124 SidewaysQuark
I wonder how the commentary here would differ if, instead of a display of religious bigotry, this was an event related to really tasteless art display? Say it was an avant-garde work called “Flaming Koran”, in the vain of “Piss Christ”…
Meh. Burn Christian Bibles and the sort. Remember the riots during the Piss Christ fiasco? Me neither.
| 128 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:25:55pm |
re: #93 prononymous
Hypothetical situation: there is a crazy guy that has shot people before and will probably obtain another gun on his own, given enough time.
Should I be critical if you want to give him an assault rifle right now?
I do not understand the relevance of your example to the violence in Afghanistan.
Who is giving weapons to the crazies?
Maybe this is a better example…. if a crazy guy threatens violence, and has in the past been violent when ever anyone does something he disagrees with. AND even when he perceives someone, thousands of miles away has done something he disagrees with.
In fear of violence should you be critical of everyone who might (or might not) do something that the crazy guy disagrees with? OR is he really the only one responsible for the violence he commits?
| 129 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:27:46pm |
re: #127 Cannadian Club Akbar
Meh. Burn Christian Bibles and the sort. Remember the riots during the Piss Christ fiasco? Me neither.
There were a few death threats called in. However, the most important difference, always, is rule of law.
We got it.
Afghanistan does not got it.
| 130 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:28:43pm |
re: #128 Buck
I do not understand the relevance of your example to the violence in Afghanistan.
Who is giving weapons to the crazies?
Maybe this is a better example… if a crazy guy threatens violence, and has in the past been violent when ever anyone does something he disagrees with. AND even when he perceives someone, thousands of miles away has done something he disagrees with.
In fear of violence should you be critical of everyone who might (or might not) do something that the crazy guy disagrees with? OR is he really the only one responsible for the violence he commits?
Do you see Jones’ hands as clean in this? I don’t. He knew exactly what would probably happen if he went ahead, and he went ahead.
| 131 |
lostlakehiker Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:28:55pm |
The truth is that pacifism is morally bankrupt. Sometimes, while it would be nice to talk the SS guard at Buchenwald into surrender, he’s busy shooting inmates and can’t be bothered to hold a conversation with you.
Living human being and all, he is the instrument by which others are dying, and he has to be stopped, and that means killing him.
There really is such a thing as a just war.
There also really is such a thing as a foolish war, for that matter, or a barbarous war. The moral context of decisions about war and peace must be essays such as this. That, and a sober, even sick-to-the-stomach sense that war is fraught with unforeseen consequences and bloody mistakes, and that if worse comes to worst, we get a nuclear winter that could kill most everyone.
Even taking all this into account, I judge that Obama was right to not just twiddle thumbs and watch the sack of Benghazi, and who knows what else, unfold.
| 132 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:30:02pm |
re: #129 SanFranciscoZionist
There were a few death threats called in. However, the most important difference, always, is rule of law.
We got it.
Afghanistan does not got it.
Rudy threatened to hold tax payer money to the museum. Maybe no death threats but some (many) went into freakout mode.
| 133 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:30:38pm |
re: #131 lostlakehiker
The truth is that pacifism is morally bankrupt.
Absolute pacifism, sure. A general preference for peace over war is a good idea.
| 134 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:31:10pm |
re: #132 Cannadian Club Akbar
Rudy threatened to hold tax payer money to the museum. Maybe no death threats but some (many) went into freakout mode.
I thought that was the other thing, the Madonnas.
| 135 |
McSpiff Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:31:25pm |
re: #128 Buck
I think its a spectrum, like most things in life. I’ve seen people refuse to accept any responsibility for their own actions, and I’ve seen the mentally ill goaded into acts of violence. I’m not sure if any analogy will completely capture the subtleties of something like this.
Are there groups of Afghans looking for any excuse they can find to kill westerners in their country? Yep. Did Jones do what he did, hoping to encourage exactly this, to attempt to prove some twisted point about Islam being evil? Yep.
| 137 |
iceweasel Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:32:18pm |
re: #134 SanFranciscoZionist
I thought that was the other thing, the Madonnas.
I think it was both. The Madonna one IIRC they had to remove from the show.
| 138 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:33:17pm |
re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist
Absolute pacifism, sure. A general preference for peace over war is a good idea.
Agree. But when people are asked to look into something and they turn the other cheek for money or other reasons and speak peace, I have no problem with a trial and execution.
| 139 |
iceweasel Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:33:29pm |
re: #136 Stanley Sea
Hello Mrs. Jimmah!
Hey cutie! How goes it? I feel bad sullying such a serious thread by saying that.
| 140 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:34:12pm |
re: #129 SanFranciscoZionist
There were a few death threats called in. However, the most important difference, always, is rule of law.
We got it.
Afghanistan does not got it.
I’d argue that it has more to do with the “maturity” over Christianity over Islam. At the same point in Christianity’s evolution as Islam is at now, dipping a crucifix in a container of urine or burning a Bible would have, at best, lead to anything from banishment to physical torture. At worst, you faced excommunication or even execution.
Nowadays, the worst you face is losing support for your “art” or getting bad reviews in the local papers.
| 141 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:34:28pm |
re: #137 iceweasel
I think it was both. The Madonna one IIRC they had to remove from the show.
I think you’re correct. I forgot about the Elephant Poops that SFZ brought up. My bad, SFZ.
| 142 |
Stanley Sea Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:34:58pm |
re: #139 iceweasel
Hey cutie! How goes it? I feel bad sullying such a serious thread by saying that.
I know, I did too. But it can handle the lightness.
| 143 |
lostlakehiker Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:35:39pm |
re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist
Absolute pacifism, sure. A general preference for peace over war is a good idea.
Indeed. Because all wars are foolish from at least the perspective of the self interest of one of the belligerents, and many are foolish from any perspective. War for the sake of the thrill is madness. War for riches is the road to ruin. Even the best of wars is a terrible thing and peace should be given several chances.
| 144 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:35:54pm |
re: #141 Cannadian Club Akbar
I think you’re correct. I forgot about the Elephant Poops that SFZ brought up. My bad, SFZ.
The Piss Christ thing was 1987.
I would point out that it did have enough cultural impact that people are still bringing it up almost twenty-five years later.
| 145 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:36:40pm |
re: #128 Buck
In fear of violence should you be critical of everyone who might (or might not) do something that the crazy guy disagrees with? OR is he really the only one responsible for the violence he commits?
Even if there were no fear of violence, I would still condemn Terry Jones and anyone else who burns books.
The violence makes what he did even worse, because he knew his hateful stunt would probably cause bloodshed.
| 146 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:36:46pm |
re: #143 lostlakehiker
Indeed. Because all wars are foolish from at least the perspective of the self interest of one of the belligerents, and many are foolish from any perspective. War for the sake of the thrill is madness. War for riches is the road to ruin. Even the best of wars is a terrible thing and peace should be given several chances.
A shlechte sholem is besser vi a guter krig.
A bad peace is better than a good war.
| 147 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:37:21pm |
re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist
Do you see Jones’ hands as clean in this? I don’t. He knew exactly what would probably happen if he went ahead, and he went ahead.
Clean? No. I think that burning a Koran is a stupid, immature thing to do. The only purpose is to inflame passions. Not self defense, not education, and certainly not promoting understanding.
However he was not a necessary part of the violence. That happens with or without him.
| 148 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:37:37pm |
In the end, I have to agree with PZ. I don’t feel that it is ever justified, in certain senses of the term, to kill another person. There are times when it is necessary or happens as the unexpected result of actions/choices. It might even be a good thing for you, others, and/or humanity that a person is dead.
Part of the problem here is that terms like justice, deserve, etc are loaded terms that mean different things to different people.
| 149 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:39:13pm |
re: #147 Buck
Clean? No. I think that burning a Koran is a stupid, immature thing to do. The only purpose is to inflame passions. Not self defense, not education, and certainly not promoting understanding.
However he was not a necessary part of the violence. That happens with or without him.
The hornets are probably going to swarm some time. I’m not sure that means that the guy who kicks the nest is not necessary to the process.
If that makes sense.
| 150 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:39:54pm |
How would the world act if someone burned all religious books in a pile? Just pondering.
| 151 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:40:36pm |
re: #145 Charles
Even if there were no fear of violence, I would still condemn Terry Jones and anyone else who burns books.
The violence makes what he did even worse, because he knew his hateful stunt would probably cause bloodshed.
I condemn the burning of books as well.
The actual incitement to violence was done by other people thousands of miles away from the book burning. I condemn those people more because THEIR incitement certainly caused bloodshed.
| 152 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:42:49pm |
re: #151 Buck
I condemn the burning of books as well.
The actual incitement to violence was done by other people thousands of miles away from the book burning. I condemn those people more because THEIR incitement certainly caused bloodshed.
So it’s your position that those 7 UN workers who were dragged out and lynched would have been killed anyway, so we shouldn’t criticize Jones so much?
| 153 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:43:20pm |
re: #151 Buck
I condemn the burning of books as well.
The actual incitement to violence was done by other people thousands of miles away from the book burning. I condemn those people more because THEIR incitement certainly caused bloodshed.
Somehow, I don’t think they’d have had much luck without an “infidel” burning Korans to begin with.
| 154 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:44:18pm |
re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist
The hornets are probably going to swarm some time. I’m not sure that means that the guy who kicks the nest is not necessary to the process.
If that makes sense.
Sorry if I think that kicking a hornets nest is a direct assault on the hornets, and that it seems to me that what his idiot did was kick a kick an empty nest thousands of miles away.
| 155 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:45:14pm |
re: #140 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I’d argue that it has more to do with the “maturity” over Christianity over Islam. At the same point in Christianity’s evolution as Islam is at now, dipping a crucifix in a container of urine or burning a Bible would have, at best, lead to anything from banishment to physical torture. At worst, you faced excommunication or even execution.
Nowadays, the worst you face is losing support for your “art” or getting bad reviews in the local papers.
I can see that, and I’m familiar with some similar responses from earlier times in Christianity—but I also note that Malaysia is not rioting over this, and the Gulf States are not…there’s clearly more to whether you go fucking berserk over Terry Jones burning a Koran than just whether you’re Muslim or not.
Which is why I think rule of law is a big part of it. Stable society. I think you could get a similar kind of lynch mob of Christians going in certain parts of the world still with this kind of thing. Think of the new fad for witch-hunting in parts of Africa.
| 156 |
iceweasel Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:45:24pm |
re: #154 Buck
Sorry if I think that kicking a hornets nest is a direct assault on the hornets, and that it seems to me that what his idiot did was kick a kick an empty nest thousands of miles away.
It wasn’t empty at all and he knew that.
| 157 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:45:30pm |
re: #128 Buck
I do not understand the relevance of your example to the violence in Afghanistan.Who is giving weapons to the crazies?
You said that they don’t need someone burning a book to find a reason to promote violence. I agree. But Jones is giving them that reason right now, and he knows it. That was his entire intent, to provoke violence so he could say “look how violent they are”.
That you would try to disconnect his words from the resulting violence is laughable.
In fear of violence should you be critical of everyone who might (or might not) do something that the crazy guy disagrees with? OR is he really the only one responsible for the violence he commits?
They are both responsible.
| 158 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:45:43pm |
re: #153 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Somehow, I don’t think they’d have had much luck without an “infidel” burning Korans to begin with.
I bring up the example of the violence that came about from the rumor that a koran was placed in a toilet. It was untrue, and yet people were killed.
| 159 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:46:30pm |
re: #155 SanFranciscoZionist
I can see that, and I’m familiar with some similar responses from earlier times in Christianity—but I also note that Malaysia is not rioting over this, and the Gulf States are not…there’s clearly more to whether you go fucking berserk over Terry Jones burning a Koran than just whether you’re Muslim or not.
Which is why I think rule of law is a big part of it. Stable society. I think you could get a similar kind of lynch mob of Christians going in certain parts of the world still with this kind of thing. Think of the new fad for witch-hunting in parts of Africa.
Hmm, I see your point.
| 160 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:46:32pm |
re: #154 Buck
Sorry if I think that kicking a hornets nest is a direct assault on the hornets, and that it seems to me that what his idiot did was kick a kick an empty nest thousands of miles away.
Like I said yesterday, Jones has figured out how to play with matches and have other people’s fingers be burnt.
| 161 |
Stanley Sea Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:46:35pm |
re: #158 Buck
I bring up the example of the violence that came about from the rumor that a koran was placed in a toilet. It was untrue, and yet people were killed.
They did not know it wasn’t true, correct?
| 162 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:46:59pm |
re: #158 Buck
I bring up the example of the violence that came about from the rumor that a koran was placed in a toilet. It was untrue, and yet people were killed.
Wasn’t there a Time or other mag that had a deceptive cover?
| 163 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:47:16pm |
Like most simple-minded people, fundamentalists have trouble with the concept of shared or distributed responsibility. I’ve encountered this in my personal life more than once. A fundy woman once asked me if I had been a perfect husband to my first wife. I naturally answered no since there is no such thing as a perfect spouse. She acted like she had caught me in a trap: “Then you can’t really blame her for it, can you? It’s as much your fault as hers.” Er, no, the fault was not equivalent, nor does it have to be.
Terry Jones shares in the responsibility for the murders in Afghanistan. He is not entirely at fault, nor is he equally at fault with the actual murderers. He is at fault though, and pointing the finger at the intolerant savages he provoked will not absolve him one bit.
| 164 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:47:40pm |
re: #156 iceweasel
It wasn’t empty at all and he knew that.
It wasn’t an actual assault on a person (hornet), so yes for the purpose of this example it was empty.
| 165 |
blueraven Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:47:44pm |
re: #128 Buck
I do not understand the relevance of your example to the violence in Afghanistan.
Who is giving weapons to the crazies?
Maybe this is a better example… if a crazy guy threatens violence, and has in the past been violent when ever anyone does something he disagrees with. AND even when he perceives someone, thousands of miles away has done something he disagrees with.
In fear of violence should you be critical of everyone who might (or might not) do something that the crazy guy disagrees with? OR is he really the only one responsible for the violence he commits?
If that something is burning a holy book of millions of people, then you have to accept the consequences of your actions.
We do things every day that the Islamic radicals disagree with. We do not adjust our normal lives to appease them.
| 166 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:47:52pm |
re: #163 Shiplord Kirel
Like most simple-minded people, fundamentalists have trouble with the concept of shared or distributed responsibility. I’ve encountered this in my personal life more than once. A fundy woman once asked me if I had been a perfect husband to my first wife. I naturally answered no since there is no such thing as a perfect spouse. She acted like she had caught me in a trap: “Then you can’t really blame her for it, can you? It’s as much your fault as hers.” Er, no, the fault was not equivalent, nor does it have to be.
Terry Jones shares in the responsibility for the murders in Afghanistan. He is not entirely at fault, nor is he equally at fault with the actual murderers. He is at fault though, and pointing the finger at the intolerant savages he provoked will not absolve him one bit.
There’s plenty of blame to go around in all of this.
| 167 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:48:08pm |
re: #158 Buck
I bring up the example of the violence that came about from the rumor that a koran was placed in a toilet. It was untrue, and yet people were killed.
And how long was it between the initial allegation and the final revelation that it was false? You act as though those engaging in the violence were telepaths who knew the allegation bullshit, but took up arms anyway because they had an excuse to do so.
| 168 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:48:18pm |
re: #161 Stanley Sea
They did not know it wasn’t true, correct?
They didn’t try and find out, correct?
| 169 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:49:14pm |
re: #167 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
And how long was it between the initial allegation and the final revelation that it was false? You act as though those engaging in the violence were telepaths who knew the allegation bullshit, but took up arms anyway because they had an excuse to do so.
Not to mention the fact that those engaging in violence probably don’t have access to much varied media—and also that, as we see closer to home with our favorite wingnuts every day, even having access to the truth does not mean that you ever figure it out.
| 170 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:50:16pm |
re: #168 Buck
They didn’t try and find out, correct?
I don’t think the 48-hour rule has ever applied to mobs.
Sadly.
| 171 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:50:51pm |
re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist
Not to mention the fact that those engaging in violence probably don’t have access to much varied media—and also that, as we see closer to home with our favorite wingnuts every day, even having access to the truth does not mean that you ever figure it out.
Yep, we’re talking the poor and illiterate, whose access to the media is limited to local publications or whatever their radios and TV can pick up over the airwaves. If all the sources of information are printing the allegations, what are they supposed to do, await confirmation before rioting?
| 172 |
Stanley Sea Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:50:54pm |
re: #167 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
And how long was it between the initial allegation and the final revelation that it was false? You act as though those engaging in the violence were telepaths who knew the allegation bullshit, but took up arms anyway because they had an excuse to do so.
Exactly.
| 173 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:51:17pm |
re: #167 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
And how long was it between the initial allegation and the final revelation that it was false? You act as though those engaging in the violence were telepaths who knew the allegation bullshit, but took up arms anyway because they had an excuse to do so.
That is exactly what I am saying… except for the telepath part.
The people inciting the violence know that the allegations are only allegations and they are looking for any excuse to whip up people to be violent.
They know that the UN workers did not burn a koran. They know it as clear as they know anything.
| 174 |
Achilles Tang Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:51:24pm |
re: #148 prononymous
Part of the problem here is that terms like justice, deserve, etc are loaded terms that mean different things to different people.
…more accurately, I think, some people have no idea what the terms mean.
| 175 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:51:57pm |
re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist
I don’t think the 48-hour rule has ever applied to mobs.
Sadly.
and that is the fault of the people who are inciting the crowd to violence.
| 176 |
Stanley Sea Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:52:18pm |
re: #168 Buck
They didn’t try and find out, correct?
Yeah, with their internet access and patience to debunk what they know to be bullshit on the web./
I’m not excusing rioting, killing etc., but your mindset has been painted here before, and I see it peeking through.
| 177 |
Achilles Tang Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:52:21pm |
re: #150 Cannadian Club Akbar
How would the world act if someone burned all religious books in a pile? Just pondering.
That would be Orwellian.
| 178 |
jaunte Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:52:50pm |
re: #168 Buck
Newsweek reported the story based on confidential government source.
I don’t think the rioters would have better sources.
Editor Mark Whitaker expressed regret over the item in the magazine’s “Periscope” section, saying it was based on a confidential source — a “senior U.S. government official” — who now says he is not sure whether the story is true.
….
“There had been previous reports about the Koran being defiled, but they always seemed to be rumors or allegations made by sources without evidence,” Whitaker said, referring to reporting by British and Russian news agencies and by the Qatar-based satellite network al-Jazeera. The Washington Post, whose parent company owns Newsweek, reported a similar account in March 2003, attributing it to a group of former detainees. “The fact that a knowledgeable source within the U.S. government was telling us the government itself had knowledge of this was newsworthy,” Whitaker said in an interview. [Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]
| 179 |
Varek Raith Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:53:16pm |
re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist
Not to mention the fact that those engaging in violence probably don’t have access to much varied media—and also that, as we see closer to home with our favorite wingnuts every day, even having access to the truth does not mean that you ever figure it out.
32 WARSHIPS!
| 180 |
SidewaysQuark Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:53:24pm |
re: #163 Shiplord Kirel
Terry Jones shares in the responsibility for the murders in Afghanistan.
No, Terry Jones shares responsibility for setting a small fire to an insignificant piece of parchment in a trash can, and being a hateful dumbass, that’s it.
The only people responsible for the murders are the few individuals in the crowd who did the killing. Jones isn’t responsible, the “mob” isn’t responsible, the Afghans aren’t responsible, just the individuals who did it, period.
| 181 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:53:33pm |
re: #150 Cannadian Club Akbar
How would the world act if someone burned all religious books in a pile? Just pondering.
It would probably get about 10 degrees warmer.
| 182 |
iceweasel Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:53:46pm |
re: #176 Stanley Sea
Yeah, with their internet access and patience to debunk what they know to be bullshit on the web./
I’m not excusing rioting, killing etc., but your mindset has been painted here before, and I see it peeking through.
Yeah.
They’re all animals, animals don’t need any excuse ‘
| 183 |
Achilles Tang Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:53:52pm |
| 184 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:53:58pm |
re: #177 Naso Tang
That would be Orwellian.
What are you talking about, brother? There never were any religious books.
| 185 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:54:37pm |
re: #173 Buck
That is exactly what I am saying… except for the telepath part.
The people inciting the violence know that the allegations are only allegations and they are looking for any excuse to whip up people to be violent.
They know that the UN workers did not burn a koran. They know it as clear as they know anything.
So every paper in the English-speaking world is reprinting the initial allegations of a Koran being flushed down the toilet. You’re supposed to…what?
| 186 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:54:48pm |
re: #176 Stanley Sea
Yeah, with their internet access and patience to debunk what they know to be bullshit on the web./
I’m not excusing rioting, killing etc., but your mindset has been painted here before, and I see it peeking through.
A person does not need internet access to know that the person they are killing is innocent of an alleged crime committed thousands of miles away.
| 187 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:55:10pm |
re: #180 SidewaysQuark
No, Terry Jones shares responsibility for setting a small fire to an insignificant piece of parchment in a trash can, and being a hateful dumbass, that’s it.
The only people responsible for the murders are the few individuals in the crowd who did the killing. Jones isn’t responsible, the “mob” isn’t responsible, the Afghans aren’t responsible, just the individuals who did it, period.
Apparently, nobody is responsible for anything, anymore.
| 188 |
SidewaysQuark Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:55:42pm |
re: #177 Naso Tang
That would be Orwellian.
Burning other people’s books or public books is Orwellian. Burning your own books is just a stupid waste of $5.95 ($6.95 Canada).
| 189 |
Stanley Sea Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:55:49pm |
re: #187 prononymous
Apparently, nobody is responsible for anything, anymore.
Conservatism!
Hark SJesus!
| 190 |
Achilles Tang Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:55:55pm |
| 191 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:56:05pm |
re: #175 Buck
and that is the fault of the people who are inciting the crowd to violence.
Including Terry Jones. Or don’t you think General Petraeus (who warned Jones personally) knows what the hell he’s talking about, either?
| 193 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:57:37pm |
re: #182 iceweasel
Yeah.
They’re all animals, animals don’t need any excuse ‘
No one is saying that, anymore than what you could be saying:
“they are animals, and we can’t expect animals to responsible for their violent actions”.
| 194 |
iceweasel Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:57:55pm |
I still can’t wrap my head around that. Warned by PETRAEUS and he does it anyway.
| 195 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:58:49pm |
re: #186 Buck
A person does not need internet access to know that the person they are killing is innocent of an alleged crime committed thousands of miles away.
I know a good number of Americans who, despite access to a great deal of information, still believe that global warming is a “myth.” Why? Because their leaders, both political and religious, tell them so and say that those saying otherwise are deceitful and greedy.
| 196 |
funky chicken Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:58:53pm |
re: #57 Varek Raith
Let’s just carpet bomb them then? Shit, they all may be running errands for the Taliban. We just don’t know.
/Ridiculous.
Yeah, that’s just what I said. Perhaps read past the first sentence next time before you jump to conclusions.
| 197 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 2:59:02pm |
re: #194 iceweasel
I still can’t wrap my head around that. Warned by PETRAEUS and he does it anyway.
See: Fringe Kooks.
| 198 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:00:04pm |
Remember, incitement is only bad when its done locally, not by some jackass thousands of miles away trying to start shit he knows he’ll be protected from.
| 199 |
jaunte Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:01:17pm |
Interesting Afghan comments from that 2005 riot story:
Ghulam Dastagir, 28, a bird seller who refused to join the demonstration, said: “I don’t think the report is true, but these crises work for those who want to make fights between people.”Del Agha, 47, a dry-goods salesman who joined the protest, said, “Even now, I’m not sure if this was true.” He said he participated because “we just wanted to tell the world that the people who did this should be brought to justice” for “disrespecting the holy Koran… . We wanted to have a peaceful demonstration but the demonstration was like a car and some people who are the enemies of Afghanistan took the steering wheel and turned it in the wrong direction.”
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]
| 200 |
Achilles Tang Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:01:20pm |
re: #191 Charles
Including Terry Jones. Or don’t you think General Petraeus (who warned Jones personally) knows what the hell he’s talking about, either?
What we need to acknowledge in this context is that the planet is full of primitive peoples and beliefs that have no place or future in a civilized planet.
Once we do that we can agree that the Jones actions are deliberate acts no different from the incitements of the Mullahs who respond to it.
| 201 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:03:55pm |
re: #194 iceweasel
Sadly, it probably made him MORE determined to do it.
| 202 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:04:48pm |
re: #193 Buck
Jones isn’t an animal either. He didn’t innocently defecate on the mountain trail for extremists to step in and get outraged. He made a choice to perform an action he knew would result in the deaths of people, including civilians and soldiers.
Why shouldn’t we be critical of that? He knew what he was doing and chose the one that would get people killed. And we are just supposed to shut up about it? He got people killed, but we have to be okay with it because the other guys are worse?
| 203 |
recusancy Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:04:57pm |
re: #200 Naso Tang
What we need to acknowledge in this context is that the planet is full of primitive peoples and beliefs that have no place or future in a civilized planet.
That sounds like a dangerous statement. I get what you’re saying but still… It’s a little “holocausty”.
| 204 |
blueraven Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:05:19pm |
re: #200 Naso Tang
What we need to acknowledge in this context is that the planet is full of primitive peoples and beliefs that have no place or future in a civilized planet.
Once we do that we can agree that the Jones actions are deliberate acts no different from the incitements of the Mullahs who respond to it.
What do you recommend we do with these primitive people and their beliefs?
| 206 |
Stanley Sea Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:08:38pm |
re: #200 Naso Tang
What we need to acknowledge in this context is that the planet is full of primitive peoples and beliefs that have no place or future in a civilized planet.
Holy shit.
How cold.
| 207 |
Varek Raith Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:11:15pm |
re: #196 funky chicken
Yeah, that’s just what I said. Perhaps read past the first sentence next time before you jump to conclusions.
See my #67.
Sorry for losing my temper.
| 208 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:12:44pm |
re: #200 Naso Tang
What we need to acknowledge in this context is that the planet is full of primitive peoples and beliefs that have no place or future in a civilized planet.
Don’t be absurd. There will always be a demand for reality show contestants, at least until TV writers agree to work for minimum wage and no royalties.
| 209 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:14:15pm |
re: #195 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I know a good number of Americans who, despite access to a great deal of information, still believe that global warming is a “myth.” Why? Because their leaders, both political and religious, tell them so and say that those saying otherwise are deceitful and greedy.
???
| 210 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:14:37pm |
re: #208 negativ
Don’t be absurd. There will always be a demand for reality show contestants, at least until TV writers agree to work for minimum wage and no royalties.
Those guys went on strike at such the wrong time, huh?
| 211 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:15:13pm |
re: #202 prononymous
Jones isn’t an animal either. He didn’t innocently defecate on the mountain trail for extremists to step in and get outraged. He made a choice to perform an action he knew would result in the deaths of people, including civilians and soldiers.
Why shouldn’t we be critical of that? He knew what he was doing and chose the one that would get people killed. And we are just supposed to shut up about it? He got people killed, but we have to be okay with it because the other guys are worse?
Who said you shouldn’t be critical of him. I was critical of him… I have no reason to NOT be critical.
| 212 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:15:40pm |
re: #211 Buck
Then what is your point?
| 213 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:17:22pm |
re: #185 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So every paper in the English-speaking world is reprinting the initial allegations of a Koran being flushed down the toilet. You’re supposed to…what?
Not kill people thousands of miles away from where it is alleged to have happened?
I would have thought that was obvious.
| 214 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:19:03pm |
re: #213 Buck
Not kill people thousands of miles away from where it is alleged to have happened?
I would have thought that was obvious.
So then we should not have gone to war with Afghanistan for the actions of 19 hijackers whose crime happened in NYC?
| 215 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:21:21pm |
re: #214 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So then we should not have gone to war with Afghanistan for the actions of 19 hijackers whose crime happened in NYC?
The crime that was happening in Afghanistan was the protecting of the people who committed 9/11.
I really thought you would know that? Do you really think that the USA and it’s allies attacked Afghanistan for revenge?
| 216 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:22:10pm |
re: #180 SidewaysQuark
No, Terry Jones shares responsibility for setting a small fire to an insignificant piece of parchment in a trash can, and being a hateful dumbass, that’s it.
The only people responsible for the murders are the few individuals in the crowd who did the killing. Jones isn’t responsible, the “mob” isn’t responsible, the Afghans aren’t responsible, just the individuals who did it, period.
I’m not buying it. Jones knew this reaction was very likely, yet he went ahead with his stunt anyway. Actions have consequences.
| 217 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:22:38pm |
re: #215 Buck
The crime that was happening in Afghanistan was the protecting of the people who committed 9/11.
I really thought you would know that? Do you really think that the USA and it’s allies attacked Afghanistan for revenge?
You mean there was no element of revenge in our rush to get to Afghanistan? We could not comply with the Taliban’s demand for presentation of evidence that proved OBL and Al-Q responsible for the actions of those 19 hijackers?
| 219 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:25:00pm |
re: #217 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
You mean there was no element of revenge in our rush to get to Afghanistan? We could not comply with the Taliban’s demand for presentation of evidence that proved OBL and Al-Q responsible for the actions of those 19 hijackers?
IIRC, they were on the radar around 1998.
| 220 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:25:34pm |
re: #217 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
You mean there was no element of revenge in our rush to get to Afghanistan? We could not comply with the Taliban’s demand for presentation of evidence that proved OBL and Al-Q responsible for the actions of those 19 hijackers?
No there was no element of revenge. The armed forces did not aim to kill innocent people in order to exact revenge.
I am seriously stunned that you could believe otherwise.
| 222 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:26:34pm |
| 223 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:26:54pm |
| 224 |
Buck Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:29:06pm |
re: #222 prononymous
Around and around we go. I agree that they will eventually find something to be outraged over, if Jones hadn’t supplied them with something right now.
What the hell does that hypothetical have to do with the discussion at hand? What’s the point of #83?
I don’t see a hypothetical in my #83.
| 225 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:30:52pm |
re: #224 Buck
I don’t see a hypothetical in my #83.
The hypothetical was my “if Jones hadn’t supplied them with something right now”.
What is the point of your #83, besides being a red herring?
| 226 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:31:55pm |
Jones would have no responsibility at all if he had burned, say, a copy of the Magna Carta and English mobs had gone on a rampage of murder and mayhem in response.
Burning the Magna Carta is stupid and offensive but he would have had no realistic expectation that it would provoke a lethal riot. English people don’t behave like that (except soccer hooligans and they don’t know jack about the Magna Carta anyway).
| 227 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:35:30pm |
re: #225 prononymous
It’s not a red herring. It’s the way it is. The fundamentalists blow up Sufis as well. (See No. 9.) It’s a big problem for humanity, this fundamentalism + explosives. How will we get beyond it? Either by some miracle, or I shudder to think what.
| 228 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:35:58pm |
re: #220 Buck
No there was no element of revenge. The armed forces did not aim to kill innocent people in order to exact revenge.
I am seriously stunned that you could believe otherwise.
Sure we did, we even went so far as to declare it, via Congressional act, that any Afghani soldier who we considered to be “harboring terrorists” was himself a terrorist and thus not subject to the Geneva Conventions regarding the treatment of prisoners of war. We went in, on Day One of the campaign, treating anybody who brandished arms against our invasion as a terrorist, regardless of their affiliation.
We had an authorization for military action against Afghanistan within days of the attacks. You’re telling me that there was no element of revenge to such swift action?
| 229 |
freetoken Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:38:18pm |
Briefly changing topics…. I mentioned this morning about Rand Paul’s star shining brightly in Iowa on Saturday. And now from today:
Son: Ron Paul won’t be ignored this time
If U.S. Rep. Ron Paul runs for president again, he will get more respect this time, says his son, U.S. Sen. Rand Paul.
[…]
In July 2007, the elder Paul, a Texas congressman, was kept out of a Republican candidates’ forum in Des Moines.
“I think it backfired on people when they tried to exclude him from things because his people became so motivated,” Rand Paul said.
The younger Paul, visiting the crucial caucus state of Iowa, repeated he might run for president himself if his father does not.
“My guess is he’s leaning in the direction of running,” said Paul, who lives with his father in Washington. “But I can’t, and don’t, speak for him. … He’s not told me one way or another.”
Rand Paul has been visible lately in the early voting states of Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina.
“Now we’re in Libya, and suddenly Ron Paul doesn’t look so crazy anymore,” Jeff Angelo, a Republican ex-state senator in Iowa, said. “More and more people say, ‘That guy’s right. I’m really tired of us intervening when there’s no American interest.’”
The GOP is certainly going mad.
| 230 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:39:50pm |
re: #228 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
We knew who was harboring the terrorist and the fact that UBL was behind it. We have war plans for everyone and within days CIA was on the ground. We also haven’t declared war since WW2.
| 231 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:41:59pm |
re: #230 Cannadian Club Akbar
We knew who was harboring the terrorist and the fact that UBL was behind it. We have war plans for everyone and within days CIA was on the ground. We also haven’t declared war since WW2.
We also didn’t even stop for UN authorization, didn’t even seek it. We just made the legal bullshit later that blowing the bejesus out of Afghanistan was “defensive action” because the Taliban was harboring the terrorists we sought.
| 232 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:43:17pm |
re: #227 Ojoe
It’s not a red herring. It’s the way it is. The fundamentalists blow up Sufis as well. (See No. 9.) It’s a big problem for humanity, this fundamentalism + explosives. How will we get beyond it? Either by some miracle, or I shudder to think what.
Yes, it is a red herring. The big HOWEVER (with an unstated THEREFORE, I might add) is attempting to distract from Jones and put the focus back on the Muslim extremists.
What is wrong with discussing the religious extremists within our own country that we might actually have some power to influence?
| 233 |
Stanley Sea Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:45:12pm |
re: #229 freetoken
Channeling Hoosier, OH GAWD.
| 234 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:45:53pm |
re: #231 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Didn’t someone from Afghanistan declare war on us? Maybe not UBL (although he did) but one of the spokes people for the country? Then denied Afghanistan had anything to do with it?
| 235 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:46:13pm |
| 236 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:49:09pm |
re: #232 prononymous
What is wrong with discussing the religious extremists within our own country that we might actually have some power to influence?
Nothing.
Though I might add, in my own mind, my private assessment of the nature of Islam would certainly qualify me for beheading, in some parts of the world. So there is a big problem here.
| 237 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:52:34pm |
re: #234 Cannadian Club Akbar
Didn’t someone from Afghanistan declare war on us? Maybe not UBL (although he did) but one of the spokes people for the country? Then denied Afghanistan had anything to do with it?
None in the 3 days between 9/11 and Congress’ approval of “any and all means” to fight terrorism, or the 8 day between 9/11 and the start of combat operations. Any declarations made in that time frame were warning of what would happen if the US went to war with Afghanistan.
| 238 |
Stanley Sea Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:53:23pm |
re: #236 Ojoe
Nothing.
Though I might add, in my own mind, my private assessment of the nature of Islam would certainly qualify me for beheading, in some parts of the world. So there is a big problem here.
Broad brush danger there bro.
| 239 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:54:37pm |
re: #236 Ojoe
Thank you.
I’d be beheaded in many parts of the world, and that would be before I shared my thoughts about their beliefs.
| 240 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:57:07pm |
re: #229 freetoken
Briefly changing topics… I mentioned this morning about Rand Paul’s star shining brightly in Iowa on Saturday. And now from today:
Son: Ron Paul won’t be ignored this time
The GOP is certainly going mad.
This is definitely another measure of the GOP’s lurch to the far right.
| 241 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:57:20pm |
re: #238 Stanley Sea
One is entitled to one’s own mind. I modify mine when I see things newly. But I am sure I would not pass mental muster in some quarters.
| 242 |
blueraven Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:57:46pm |
re: #229 freetoken
Briefly changing topics… I mentioned this morning about Rand Paul’s star shining brightly in Iowa on Saturday. And now from today:
Son: Ron Paul won’t be ignored this time
The GOP is certainly going mad.
Why not? The slate is full of crazies already. maybe the craziest will win the nomination.
I have to say I was pleasantly surprised this morning with two republican officials on Meet the Press, who were quite sane.
One was Representative Mike Rogers (R-Mich.) chairman of the House Select Committee on Intelligence. He didn’t try to politicize the actions in Libya and blast the President over it. Another was Mike Murphy, republican strategist, who is warning his party over their policy and rhetoric concerning minorities, especially the growing Hispanic population.
We need more republicans who think like this, to speak out and stop the insanity.
| 243 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:57:47pm |
re: #237 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I thought we didn’t get after them until October. I may be wrong.
| 244 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Apr 3, 2011 3:58:06pm |
This, too, is just another form of fundamentalism and is an attitude that can cause just as much evil in the world. He seems to be terribly, in an older sense of the word, convinced of his righteousness and that is always a very dangerous thing.
| 245 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:01:36pm |
| 246 |
Targetpractice Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:04:43pm |
re: #243 Cannadian Club Akbar
I thought we didn’t get after them until October. I may be wrong.
No, you’re right, we didn’t start operations until Oct. 7th, only to wait until later to declare that operations had officially begun on Sept 19th. Between the two dates, the Taliban requested any information and evidence as to OBL’s guilt before entering negotiations for his extradition.
Our response was to tell them to fork him over, as well as destroy all Al-Q camps in their territory, or we’d do it for them.
| 247 |
b_sharp Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:10:38pm |
re: #220 Buck
No there was no element of revenge. The armed forces did not aim to kill innocent people in order to exact revenge.
I am seriously stunned that you could believe otherwise.
The element of revenge does not require the aim of killing innocent people. I think your definition of revenge is wrong. Given your confusion I can understand you being stunned.
The revenge was against al-Qaeda, and was transferred to the Taliban because they were perceived as protecting and siding with al-Qaeda. The Taliban became al-Qaeda by proxy so the revenge extended to them, but it was never directed at the population of Afghanistan who were considered the victims of the Taliban.
| 248 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:13:35pm |
re: #145 Charles
Even if there were no fear of violence, I would still condemn Terry Jones and anyone else who burns books.
The violence makes what he did even worse, because he knew his hateful stunt would probably cause bloodshed.
{In passing, because I have to go}
Agreed. He knew he was getting people killed and he didn’t care. He didn’t care about anything but his beliefs and what he wanted. That is Ego taken to its final and most destructive extremes.
| 249 |
b_sharp Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:14:40pm |
I’m too late to the discussion to go into detail, but I do believe PZ is wrong in completely rejecting nuance.
| 250 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:22:39pm |
re: #249 b_sharp
I would contend that most have actually missed the nuance. He says that taking lives isn’t justified (something I agree with, in some sense). But he admits that it is necessary in certain circumstances, and lists self defense as one.
| 251 |
blueraven Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:31:30pm |
re: #248 Dark_Falcon
{In passing, because I have to go}
Agreed. He knew he was getting people killed and he didn’t care. He didn’t care about anything but his beliefs and what he wanted. That is Ego taken to its final and most destructive extremes.
It is also religious extremism. If this guy could get away with doing what the imams did in Afghanistan (inciting the rioting and violence there) does anyone think he wouldn’t do it?
| 252 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:33:40pm |
re: #251 blueraven
If this guy could get away with doing what the imams did in Afghanistan (inciting the rioting and violence there) does anyone think he wouldn’t do it?
I don’t know, you’d have to ask him.
| 253 |
blueraven Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:36:02pm |
re: #252 Ojoe
I don’t know, you’d have to ask him.
I dont know either, but going by his views and actions so far, my guess would be yes. Yes, he would.
| 254 |
b_sharp Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:36:34pm |
re: #250 prononymous
I would contend that most have actually missed the nuance. He says that taking lives isn’t justified (something I agree with, in some sense). But he admits that it is necessary in certain circumstances, and lists self defense as one.
The nuance PZ is talking about isn’t the difficulty in justifying killing in self defence, he’s talking about the nuance in determining guilt and responsibility. He wants to dispense with the consideration of cultural and psychological causal links and the potential that those may absolve the killer of his actions, when it comes to the analysis of humans killing humans. He prefers we just condemn it.
| 255 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:38:52pm |
| 256 |
theheat Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:41:10pm |
Terry Jones is an inflammatory fundie douche. Apparently, this was the result he was looking for. He put the torch to gasoline and watched it burn, just so he could say, “See - you see how gasoline is?”
In the end, Terry Jones got the result he was looking for, and the religious freaks that freak over their religious books being desecrated did not disappoint; they behaved exactly how he anticipated, and they did precisely what Terry Jones was warned they’d do.
People who murder innocent people over books being burned are unhinged animals.
They’re books. Just books. And anyone bent enough to kill over books being burned is a fucking lunatic. This was a mob a mob of lunatics. Lunatics plural.
Whether it’s a Piss Christ or Koran being burned, or a thousand Piss Christs and religious books burned, it doesn’t excuse the behavior of those who are so incensed they commit cold blooded murder for being offended.
People offend, and get offended, all the time. They don’t usually murder people over being offended. There is no justification for murder because you were offended, whether your mother, your hairstyle, or your religion was the subject of offense. Religious offense doesn’t it make it any more defensible, or real.
And after all this, the upshot is Terry Jones is convinced the religion he follows is superior to the religion he offended. People will defend his right to free speech. Religious zealots will keep killing in the name of religion.
It’s all sickening, from soup to nuts.
| 257 |
Achilles Tang Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:47:51pm |
re: #203 recusancy
That sounds like a dangerous statement. I get what you’re saying but still… It’s a little “holocausty”.
If you want to read exterminate into it, that is your problem, not what I said. I simply don’t support political correctness in any circumstance. A spade is a spade, always.
| 258 |
b_sharp Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:53:03pm |
re: #257 Naso Tang
If you want to read exterminate into it, that is your problem, not what I said. I simply don’t support political correctness in any circumstance. A spade is a spade, always.
Define political correctness.
| 259 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:56:13pm |
re: #257 Naso Tang
But my spade isn’t necessarily your spade.
How do you define politically correct?
Is it the same as politically expedient?
| 260 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:57:15pm |
re: #254 b_sharp
The nuance PZ is talking about isn’t the difficulty in justifying killing in self defence, he’s talking about the nuance in determining guilt and responsibility. He wants to dispense with the consideration of cultural and psychological causal links and the potential that those may absolve the killer of his actions, when it comes to the analysis of humans killing humans. He prefers we just condemn it.
Normally I prefer to take things on a case by case basis. Absolutes don’t often apply in the real world. I’m with PZ on that part though. The responsibility for someones death is on the person that killed them. I see no reason why social considerations should absolve someone of taking responsibility for their own actions.
Where I break with PZ would be that I find many more instances where killing may be necessary. I’d be okay with assassinating Q-daffy, for example. The grim reality is that killing is a horrible thing, and that we are going to have to do it anyway. What should the punishment be, if any? That’s a different issue.
I find it quite interesting that many (most?) people reject the concept that the end justifies the means. But then they get around that by justifying the means directly.
Shall we move upthread?
| 261 |
Stanley Sea Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:57:26pm |
| 262 |
b_sharp Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:59:10pm |
re: #260 prononymous
Normally I prefer to take things on a case by case basis. Absolutes don’t often apply in the real world. I’m with PZ on that part though. The responsibility for someones death is on the person that killed them. I see no reason why social considerations should absolve someone of taking responsibility for their own actions.
Where I break with PZ would be that I find many more instances where killing may be necessary. I’d be okay with assassinating Q-daffy, for example. The grim reality is that killing is a horrible thing, and that we are going to have to do it anyway. What should the punishment be, if any? That’s a different issue.
I find it quite interesting that many (most?) people reject the concept that the end justifies the means. But then they get around that by justifying the means directly.
Shall we move upthread?
We probably should.
| 263 |
b_sharp Sun, Apr 3, 2011 4:59:55pm |
re: #261 Stanley Sea
And the spade.
Once he defines PC, I have some more questions and points to make about that comment.
| 264 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Apr 3, 2011 5:00:03pm |
re: #262 b_sharp
Why?
You can continue discussions for days, on dead threads.
Or you can choose to move on.
| 265 |
b_sharp Sun, Apr 3, 2011 5:04:18pm |
re: #264 Floral Giraffe
Why?
You can continue discussions for days, on dead threads.
Or you can choose to move on.
Quick, bring the paddles.
Clear!
Kathnk!
Again!
| 266 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Sun, Apr 3, 2011 5:05:12pm |
Well, it’s not that dead. Hell, it’s still going stronger than the new one. ;)
| 267 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 5:12:40pm |
re: #253 blueraven
I would have more respect for him had he burnt a Koran and a Bible in tandem, as an experiment.
Which someone needs to do, except add all the other holy books.
Maybe at “burning man.”
Call it the peace bonfire, and say, “everyone get over this, worldwide.”
Won’t ever happen, though.
| 268 |
Jeff In Ohio Sun, Apr 3, 2011 5:18:52pm |
re: #5 rwmofo
My question: Why couldn’t the NY Times ignore Terry Jones?
Because they are part of the Media-Democrat party. I mean, duh!
| 269 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 5:20:10pm |
re: #268 Jeff In Ohio
Even if they did, Jones streamed the event on his website.
| 270 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 5:26:19pm |
re: #171 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yep, we’re talking the poor and illiterate, whose access to the media is limited to local publications or whatever their radios and TV can pick up over the airwaves. If all the sources of information are printing the allegations, what are they supposed to do, await confirmation before rioting?
Well, it would be nice of them…highly unlikely in the real world, though.
| 271 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 5:28:44pm |
re: #185 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So every paper in the English-speaking world is reprinting the initial allegations of a Koran being flushed down the toilet. You’re supposed to…what?
Well, perfectly ideally, I suppose, you’re supposed to shake your head, and go on with life.
However, this is not about what people do under ideal conditions. This is about Afghanistan.
| 272 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 5:29:45pm |
re: #194 iceweasel
I still can’t wrap my head around that. Warned by PETRAEUS and he does it anyway.
I think Petraeus thought he was warning him.
I think Jones thought he was promising him.
It’s all about perspective.
| 273 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 3, 2011 5:30:28pm |
re: #199 jaunte
Interesting Afghan comments from that 2005 riot story:
Apparently there is some disagreement about the value of truthiness, even in Afghanistan.
I guess some stuff is universal.
| 274 |
b_sharp Sun, Apr 3, 2011 5:44:03pm |
re: #271 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, perfectly ideally, I suppose, you’re supposed to shake your head, and go on with life.
However, this is not about what people do under ideal conditions. This is about Afghanistan.
Not just Afghanistan, this kind of reaction to ‘desecration’ isn’t all that unusual through time. It’s our late 20th and early 21st century sensibilities that have made it look unusual and extreme.
| 275 |
Ojoe Sun, Apr 3, 2011 5:56:20pm |
re: #274 b_sharp
Thus, the folks of Monty Python are some of the most advanced human beings ever.
| 276 |
Basho Sun, Apr 3, 2011 10:00:21pm |
This is probably Myers’ most poetic, but least thought out, post he’s ever written. I imagine the pointlessness of the UN workers murder left him flabbergasted. I think it’s time the US gives up on its social engineering experiment over there.
| 277 |
Basho Sun, Apr 3, 2011 10:07:16pm |
re: #274 b_sharp
Not just Afghanistan, this kind of reaction to ‘desecration’ isn’t all that unusual through time. It’s our late 20th and early 21st century sensibilities that have made it look unusual and extreme.
Everyone is secretly aware of that but can’t admit it in public. Britain’s Defense Secretary described Afghanistan as a 13th century country and was accused of racism and disrespect and damaging Britain’s relationship with the country.
| 278 |
Areozol Mon, Apr 4, 2011 2:06:34am |
If we can’t make sense from really messy situation (read: NATO involvement in Afghanistan), then, why we are getting involved in it in the first place?
Just a random thought.
| 279 |
Buck Mon, Apr 4, 2011 7:36:31am |
re: #255 WindUpBird
what about this is difficult to understand, I’m honestly curious
I simply do not understand what Global Warming has to do with anything I was talking about. You seem to be replying to something I posted, and yet I can not see any relationship whatsoever to global warming.
| 280 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 4, 2011 8:02:20am |
re: #279 Buck
I simply do not understand what Global Warming has to do with anything I was talking about. You seem to be replying to something I posted, and yet I can not see any relationship whatsoever to global warming.
The connection is pretty obvious: People often believe what their leaders tell them, despite ample evidence to the contrary. How else do you explain why so many conservatives are science-deniers, especially on the subject of AGW?
| 281 |
deadletterboy Mon, Apr 4, 2011 9:08:22am |
Myers dealt with the ‘is violence ever necessary’ in the comments on his post. Scroll down to comment number 540 and he gives his thoughts on it. No arm twisting appeared to be required, but honestly? That’s an assload of comments to read through so I could be wrong.
| 282 |
Buck Tue, Apr 5, 2011 12:54:37pm |
re: #280 Obdicut
The connection is pretty obvious: People often believe what their leaders tell them, despite ample evidence to the contrary. How else do you explain why so many conservatives are science-deniers, especially on the subject of AGW?
I am keeping this one close to me as an example of how you like to completely change the subject, hoping for a debate.
In this case I think you are trying to compare the mob who killed UN workers to Conservatives (and others) who don’t accept the line of AGW.
Again, I don’t see it at all. If anything I think the questioning of AGW came from the bottom up, not the top down. AND despite your best effort the people questioning AGW are doing it peacefully, and without rioting.
| 283 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Apr 7, 2011 6:51:24am |
re: #282 Buck
I am keeping this one close to me as an example of how you like to completely change the subject, hoping for a debate.
In this case I think you are trying to compare the mob who killed UN workers to Conservatives (and others) who don’t accept the line of AGW.
Again, I don’t see it at all. If anything I think the questioning of AGW came from the bottom up, not the top down. AND despite your best effort the people questioning AGW are doing it peacefully, and without rioting.
Buck, the first major politician to notice the importance of AGW was Thatcher. Cap and trade was a Reagan initiative to deal with acid rain. McCain/Palin ran on it! Then that all changed when the GOP decided to bend over for their oil masters. Don’t kid anyone about a propaganda campaign from the top. The typical wingnut would never think to question if ice melts when it gets hot if they were not told to by Fox and other party appartchicks.
Don’t be more stupid than usual.
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