From the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a graphic illustration of what’s wrong with the Paul Ryan budget plan: Chairman Ryan Gets Roughly Two-Thirds of His Huge Budget Cuts From Programs for Lower-Income Americans.
1 |
Ojoe Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:43:58pm |
Maybe cuts to food banks too?
People’s tummies will make loud noises then.
Corporations aren’t hiring, even though the domestic product is increasing.
We are chasing mammon as a culture, no wonder it isn’t working.
| 2 |
Jeff In Ohio Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:45:11pm |
Not to worry though as the cuts are offset with tax breaks for wealthy Americans and corporations.
Come on, we’re all in this together, let’s share the sacrifice.
| 3 |
Political Atheist Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:45:14pm |
Pity the powerless. This is “Bully” politics.
All you do is avoid the cuts your big contributors object to, and voila! You get the above chart.
| 4 |
RadicalModerate Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:45:43pm |
Exclusive footage from Rep. Ryan’s House Budget Committee meeting:
| 6 |
PT Barnum Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:46:57pm |
Not only that, but TPM has a very good story on the totally unrealistic assumptions behind the numbers.
| 7 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:47:22pm |
| 8 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:47:52pm |
The poor have a difficult time getting organized enough to complain, and when they do, their lack of significant money makes them impotent.
Best time to win in a competition is when the opponent isn’t really there.
| 9 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:49:55pm |
The GOP are flipping nuts.
I just cannot imagine that the only people who want to protect the poor/elderly/fucking downtrodden are Democrats. Really? Really?
| 11 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:51:15pm |
re: #9 Stanley Sea
The GOP are flipping nuts.
I just cannot imagine that the only people who want to protect the poor/elderly/fucking downtrodden are Democrats. Really? Really?
With the GOP as soon as you leave the womb or the army - you are on your own.
| 12 |
PT Barnum Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:51:41pm |
re: #6 PT Barnum
Not only that, but TPM has a very good story on the totally unrealistic assumptions behind the numbers.
To spell this out more explicitly, Ryan is expecting a 2.8% unemployment rate, which isn’t even possible without rates of inflation that will kill the economy.
| 13 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:52:00pm |
re: #10 PT Barnum
Michelle’s turkey farm moment.
You ever wonder what it must be like living in Bachmann’s world? It must be surreal.
She’s permanently stoned.
| 14 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:52:33pm |
Leader of Senate: All fellow members of the Roman senate hear me. Shall we continue to build palace after palace for the rich? Or shall we aspire to a more noble purpose and build decent housing for the poor? How does the senate vote?
Entire Senate: FUCK THE POOR!
| 15 |
PT Barnum Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:52:48pm |
re: #13 b_sharp
You ever wonder what it must be like living in Bachmann’s world? It must be surreal.
She’s permanently stoned.
On Jeeeuh-sus! That’s what gives her the crazy lady look as she views only the reality that Jeeeuh-sus shows her.
| 16 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:53:07pm |
re: #11 wozzablog
With the GOP as soon as you leave the womb or the army - you are on your own.
Unless you already have a cool mil’ in the bank or are an oil company. Or defence contractor.
Exceptions to every rule.
| 17 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:53:18pm |
Meanwhile, the rich and their corporations get to opt into a system where their taxes go from 35% to 25%, with the only other major tax being an 8.5% on the difference between the cost of materials and the sale price of the finished product. No other corporate taxes, taxes on interest and dividends or other capitol gains.
This isn’t a proposal, it’s a joke. Just like the last two times Ryan put it forward.
| 18 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:53:33pm |
re: #12 PT Barnum
To spell this out more explicitly, Ryan is expecting a 2.8% unemployment rate, which isn’t even possible without rates of inflation that will kill the economy.
Krugman caught Heritage changing their charts to omit that number.
Ryan attached that chart to his “plan”
Totally bogus, and they know it.
| 19 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:54:04pm |
re: #3 Rightwingconspirator
Pity the powerless. This is “Bully” politics.
All you do is avoid the cuts your big contributors object to, and voila! You get the above chart.
I’m sorry, I’m not quite understanding you. Do you mean that you don’t think that there’s no meaning to the designation that these programs are for the low-income?
| 20 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:54:42pm |
re: #17 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Meanwhile, the rich and their corporations get to opt into a system where their taxes go from 35% to 25%, with the only other major tax being an 8.5% on the difference between the cost of materials and the sale price of the finished product. No other corporate taxes, taxes on interest and dividends or other capitol gains.
This isn’t a proposal, it’s a joke. Just like the last two times Ryan put it forward.
Oh but remember the left wing media yesterday? Brave! Courageous! Forward thinking!
Then we fact-checked.
| 21 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:54:56pm |
re: #17 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I’d like to note that this tax plan would save me quite a bit of money and I think it’s contemptible asshattery.
| 23 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:55:45pm |
Remember, Ryan requires his staffers to read Atlas Shrugged. But he’s oh so serious. At least that’s what everybody keeps telling me.
| 24 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:56:01pm |
Methinks they’re misunderstanding the “war on poverty” concept.
| 25 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:56:24pm |
re: #18 Stanley Sea
Krugman caught Heritage changing their charts to omit that number.
Ryan attached that chart to his “plan”
Totally bogus, and they know it.
oh noes!!! not Krugman!!!!!
he’s…..he’s…….a nobel laureate in econmics partisan democratic hack who only writes what his paymasters at the NYT want him to think…….
| 26 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:56:25pm |
re: #24 Killgore Trout
Methinks they’re misunderstanding the “war on poverty” concept.
Epic. Many updings.
| 27 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:56:35pm |
re: #19 Obdicut
I’m sorry, I’m not quite understanding you. Do you mean that you don’t think that there’s no meaning to the designation that these programs are for the low-income?
I read it as follow what your donors want
| 28 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:57:03pm |
re: #15 PT Barnum
On Jeeeuh-sus! That’s what gives her the crazy lady look as she views only the reality that Jeeeuh-sus shows her.
My imaginary friend brings me imaginary women I have imaginary sex with.
I think I got the better deal.
| 29 |
Jeff In Ohio Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:57:30pm |
re: #20 Stanley Sea
Oh but remember the left wing media yesterday? Brave! Courageous! Forward thinking!
Then we fact-checked.
Yes, courageous for putting forth a plan that will go no where.
I am brave. I have a plan to build a warp engine that will take us to the stars! You have a plan to build a car that runs on electricity and is powered by the sun? Gee, that’s kind of a chickenshit approach to get to the stars.
| 30 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:57:39pm |
Ryan backed the purchase of over 10,000 septic tanks until he learned they weren’t going to be used in an invasion.
/
| 31 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:58:19pm |
re: #29 Jeff In Ohio
Yes, courageous for putting forth a plan that will go no where.
I am brave. I have a plan to build a warp engine that will take us to the stars! You have a plan to build a car that runs on electricity and is powered by the sun? Gee, that’s kind of a chickenshit approach to get to the stars.
don’t go stealing my idea - my car is powered with chickenshit………….
| 32 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:58:49pm |
From the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a graphic illustration of what’s wrong with the Paul Ryan budget plan: Chairman Ryan Gets Roughly Two-Thirds of His Huge Budget Cuts From Programs for Lower-Income Americans.
Everybody knows that uppity blacks, white trash and those damned long haired hippy students are not real Americans! poor people and college students will have to share in the suffering. Those tax cuts for the rich in 2001 will trickle down and help eventually.
///
| 33 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:58:53pm |
re: #31 wozzablog
don’t go stealing my idea - my car is powered with chickenshit…
Have you begun harvesting Glenn Beck yet?
| 34 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:59:11pm |
re: #24 Killgore Trout
Methinks they’re misunderstanding the “war on poverty” concept.
Extra updings if I could!
| 35 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:59:12pm |
re: #25 wozzablog
oh noes!!! not Krugman!!!
he’s…he’s…a
nobel laureate in econmicspartisan democratic hack who only writes what his paymasters at the NYT want him to think…
Facts is facts.
They changed their report once they saw PEOPLE NOTICED the bogus #’s.
| 36 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:59:31pm |
re: #24 Killgore Trout
Methinks they’re misunderstanding the “war on poverty” concept.
bomb the ghettos?
| 37 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:59:38pm |
re: #10 PT Barnum
Michelle’s turkey farm moment.
Those people weren’t booing you sir they were saying “Bu-urns!”
| 38 |
engineer cat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:59:45pm |
re: #9 Stanley Sea
The GOP are flipping nuts.
I just cannot imagine that the only people who want to protect the poor/elderly/fucking downtrodden are Democrats. Really? Really?
and it’s not just the poor/etc
this plan attacks the middle class, and, for that matter, everybody under the top 5% income
| 39 |
wrenchwench Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:59:51pm |
From “compassionate conservatives” to “corporate Koch-suckers” in a few short election cycles.
| 40 |
Ojoe Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:00:02pm |
re: #12 PT Barnum
What is the unemployment rate that is optimum, say allowing for the few percentage points you would get from counting people who are between jobs, when there is an OK job for anyone who wants one?
IIRC it is around 3-4%?
| 41 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:00:10pm |
re: #36 albusteve
bomb the ghettos?
If they’re are fewer of them, the rest will have more to pass around.
/
| 42 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:00:21pm |
re: #35 Stanley Sea
Facts is facts.
They changed their report once they saw PEOPLE NOTICED the bogus #’s.
Nobody on the modern right will care. At all.
The hate Krugman - irrationally.
| 43 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:00:27pm |
re: #14 Kragar (proud to be kafir)
Leader of Senate: All fellow members of the Roman senate hear me. Shall we continue to build palace after palace for the rich? Or shall we aspire to a more noble purpose and build decent housing for the poor? How does the senate vote?
Entire Senate: FUCK THE POOR!
Beat you seven posts back with video.
| 44 |
Political Atheist Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:01:23pm |
re: #19 Obdicut
Okay your double negative threw me, I’ll just rephrase or explain.
It’s bully politics as in the powerful dominating the weak.
The way he and others get there is budget cutting via the path of least powerful resistance. As in big corporate campaign contributors will scream and holler if corporate tax breaks are removed. High power resistance.
Who lobbies for the poor? Who pours millions into campaign coffers that advocates for the poor? As compares to who lobbies for the rich and powerful, nearly no one lobbies for the poor. Low or no power resistance.
| 45 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:01:35pm |
re: #33 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Have you begun harvesting Glenn Beck yet?
The bluff’n’bluster collectormatic 2000 harvesting device is still in pre-production
| 47 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:01:54pm |
re: #43 jamesfirecat
Beat you seven posts back with video.
Ah, but some people have video issues, so you excluded people, you heartless bastard you. Back to your hole.
| 48 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:02:01pm |
re: #44 Rightwingconspirator
Okay your double negative threw me, I’ll just rephrase or explain.
It’s bully politics as in the powerful dominating the weak.
The way he and others get there is budget cutting via the path of least powerful resistance. As in big corporate campaign contributors will scream and holler if corporate tax breaks are removed. High power resistance.
Who lobbies for the poor? Who pours millions into campaign coffers that advocates for the poor? As compares to who lobbies for the rich and powerful, nearly no one lobbies for the poor. Low or no power resistance.
Who lobbies for the poor? ACORN. Oh wait…
| 49 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:02:07pm |
re: #38 engineer dog
and it’s not just the poor/etc
this plan attacks the middle class, and, for that matter, everybody under the top 5% income
They know who butters their bread. The rot is so pervasive in the system that it is impossible to hide it now.
| 50 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:02:16pm |
re: #45 wozzablog
The bluff’n’bluster collectormatic 2000 harvesting device is still in pre-production
I thought it was still on the chalkboard.
| 51 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:02:23pm |
re: #44 Rightwingconspirator
Okay your double negative threw me, I’ll just rephrase or explain.
It’s bully politics as in the powerful dominating the weak.
The way he and others get there is budget cutting via the path of least powerful resistance. As in big corporate campaign contributors will scream and holler if corporate tax breaks are removed. High power resistance.
Who lobbies for the poor? Who pours millions into campaign coffers that advocates for the poor? As compares to who lobbies for the rich and powerful, nearly no one lobbies for the poor. Low or no power resistance.
Who lobbies for the poor and the middle class?
Well last time I checked unions did…. oh…….
| 52 |
Peter Kaufman Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:02:24pm |
You start out in 1954 by saying, “n*****, n*****, n*****.” By 1968 you can’t say “n*****”— that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now [that] you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I’m not saying that. But I’m saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “n*****, n*****.”
Lee Atwater, Republican architect of the “Southern Strategy”
| 53 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:02:26pm |
The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern.
/Some book
| 54 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:02:50pm |
| 55 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:02:55pm |
re: #39 wrenchwench
From “compassionate conservatives” to “corporate Koch-suckers” in a few short election cycles.
Nah, this is just the next step in the slow march into bankruptcy that the Reaganites started decades ago. We just had an 8 year respite during the 90s and folks forgot what this sort of shit looks like.
| 56 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:02:55pm |
| 57 |
Ojoe Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:03:03pm |
re: #49 celticdragon
They know who butters their bread. The rot is so pervasive in the system that it is impossible to hide it now.
Good argument for the revised Whig party.
| 58 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:03:10pm |
re: #53 Killgore Trout
The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern.
/Some book
You are fire tonight.
| 59 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:03:19pm |
re: #44 Rightwingconspirator
Who lobbies for the poor? Who pours millions into campaign coffers that advocates for the poor? As compares to who lobbies for the rich and powerful, nearly no one lobbies for the poor. Low or no power resistance.
Only the commie community organizers.
| 62 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:03:42pm |
It’s sad that a huge number of Americans won’t see the insanity that he presented here. Gut Medicare (Unless you’re already old) and Medicaid, reduce discretionary several times over, don’t do anything to fix Social Security, don’t touch the military, raise the taxes on most people that aren’t rich while giving big cuts to those that are, repeal the ACA in order to further reduce access to medical care for people (Including for the newly fucked over elderly and poor), etc.
And what does that get us? An increased deficit in the next 10 years from the current plan, with supposed savings after that, largely due to killing almost everything in the budget. And it only works at all due to ass-pull numbers and magical thinking, like saving over a trillion dollars from repealing ACA and massive increases in revenue from the tax cuts.
This is a plan that would lead the U.S. to fiscal, social, and economic ruin, yet I doubt most people will ever see or realize that.
| 63 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:03:42pm |
| 64 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:03:45pm |
I’m sterilizing soil in the oven. Man, that stuff stinks. I might not be doing that again.
| 66 |
Political Atheist Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:04:14pm |
re: #24 Killgore Trout
Sadly the war on poverty has gone like the war on drugs. No end in sight. Lots of poverty. Lots of drugs. The wars attack the symptoms not the causes in both instances.
| 67 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:04:46pm |
re: #65 b_sharp
Isn’t that cute, you think he’s hot.
There is definitely a burning sensation involved.
| 68 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:04:51pm |
re: #59 Stanley Sea
Only the commie community organizers.
The same ones who were mocked at the GOP convention, since only idiots from tree hugging colleges waste their time with smelly poor people who got what they deserved since Jesus doesn’t love them.
/
| 69 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:05:11pm |
re: #66 Rightwingconspirator
Sadly the war on poverty has gone like the war on drugs. No end in sight. Lots of poverty. Lots of drugs. The wars attack the symptoms not the causes in both instances.
At least the war on poverty doesn’t put people in jail last time I checked….
| 70 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:05:13pm |
re: #39 wrenchwench
From “compassionate conservatives” to “corporate Koch-suckers” in a few short election cycles.
This sounds like a job for the Koch-blockers!
| 71 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:05:21pm |
| 72 |
Political Atheist Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:05:26pm |
re: #51 jamesfirecat
Unions lobby for their own, who may not be poverty class poor at all but solid middle class.
| 73 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:05:53pm |
re: #44 Rightwingconspirator
Okay your double negative threw me, I’ll just rephrase or explain.
It’s bully politics as in the powerful dominating the weak.
The way he and others get there is budget cutting via the path of least powerful resistance. As in big corporate campaign contributors will scream and holler if corporate tax breaks are removed. High power resistance.
Who lobbies for the poor? Who pours millions into campaign coffers that advocates for the poor? As compares to who lobbies for the rich and powerful, nearly no one lobbies for the poor. Low or no power resistance.
Thanks, yeah, I’m a little incoherent over the past few days. Apologies. A lot going on.
As to what you say, I completely agree.
I’d like to add that I think that one of the worst inversions in US history is that many in the Protestant clergy, who often before preached about the poor and the destitute and the responsibility of society towards them, have fallen more and more towards the ‘prosperity gospel’ that correlates one’s success and one’s faith. There certainly was some of that in the old days, but I feel it’s gotten much worse even within my lifetime.
| 74 |
Political Atheist Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:06:12pm |
re: #69 jamesfirecat
It should. Like those who hire illegal aliens in order to exploit and underpay them.
| 75 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:06:41pm |
re: #69 jamesfirecat
At least the war on poverty doesn’t put people in jail last time I checked…
The ‘war on poverty’ and the war on drugs are becoming much the same thing.
Not in a good way.
| 76 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:06:49pm |
re: #4 RadicalModerate
Exclusive footage from Rep. Ryan’s House Budget Committee meeting:
[Video]
That’s about the only kind of fucking they’re interested in allowing.
| 77 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:06:56pm |
| 78 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:06:57pm |
re: #74 Rightwingconspirator
It should. Like those who hire illegal aliens in order to exploit and underpay them.
You know what, I’m going to agree with you on this one.
| 79 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:07:05pm |
re: #55 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Nah, this is just the next step in the slow march into bankruptcy that the Reaganites started decades ago. We just had an 8 year respite during the 90s and folks forgot what this sort of shit looks like.
The working poor need their disposable income to restart the spending in the economy - that will not come from the top.
The rich need to kick in extra tax $ to make up for the $ given back to the working poor to start throwing around at bestbuy……..
It’s not rocket science. It’s never been rocket science. Money has to come in to cover whats going out - the GOP only want to see the government losing money. Period.
| 80 |
Ojoe Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:07:11pm |
re: #66 Rightwingconspirator
Well the cause is the human condition.
That is a very very long term project to improve that.
Some religions have a pretty good approach, but lack credibility because of sex scandals, evolution snits, book burnings, & ct. & ct.
| 81 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:07:28pm |
re: #73 Obdicut
Thanks, yeah, I’m a little incoherent over the past few days. Apologies. A lot going on.
We understand bro.
| 82 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:07:28pm |
re: #64 Killgore Trout
LOL!
Friend sterilizes razor blades in the oven.
At $0.03 each, not worth the effort or the smell, IMHO.
| 83 |
Eclectic Cyborg Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:07:55pm |
Isn’t the American dream centered around poor peoplele NOT being poor anymore? I agree that someone needs to work hard to really make it but there’s a fatal flaw in the logic here:
You tell me to work but there are no jobs
You tell me to get private insurance but I either can’t afford it or am denied
You tell me I can make it on my own but make it increasingly difficult for me to do so
You tell me I must eat but cut away my access to food
You tell me you care about me but show that you don’t.
The term “American dream” has never been more appropriate. Because the reality is the American dream no longer exists. It is mere fantasy.
| 84 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:08:21pm |
re: #73 Obdicut
You fought a good fight, with Buck, today!
*salute*
| 85 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:08:31pm |
re: #79 wozzablog
The working poor need their disposable income to restart the spending in the economy - that will not come from the top.
The rich need to kick in extra tax $ to make up for the $ given back to the working poor to start throwing around at bestbuy…
It’s not rocket science. It’s never been rocket science. Money has to come in to cover whats going out - the GOP only want to see the government losing money. Period.
THis is the part that is infuriating to me. It is absolutely obvious that for a strong, healthy economy we need money to have velocity, we need a middle and lower class getting and spending money. If all that they can afford is energy, housing, and food, then the economy stagnates.
| 86 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:08:33pm |
re: #73 Obdicut
Thanks, yeah, I’m a little incoherent over the past few days. Apologies. A lot going on.
As to what you say, I completely agree.
I’d like to add that I think that one of the worst inversions in US history is that many in the Protestant clergy, who often before preached about the poor and the destitute and the responsibility of society towards them, have fallen more and more towards the ‘prosperity gospel’ that correlates one’s success and one’s faith. There certainly was some of that in the old days, but I feel it’s gotten much worse even within my lifetime.
prosperity was certainly a driving ambition with the televangelicals and their masses of drooling tithers
| 87 |
engineer cat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:08:37pm |
re: #74 Rightwingconspirator
It should. Like those who hire illegal aliens in order to exploit and underpay them.
perhaps they would be happier if all americans in the bottom 95% were replaced with illegal aliens and contract workers on limited visas
| 88 |
Political Atheist Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:09:34pm |
re: #73 Obdicut
I’d like to add that I think that one of the worst inversions in US history is that many in the Protestant clergy, who often before preached about the poor and the destitute and the responsibility of society towards them, have fallen more and more towards the ‘prosperity gospel’ that correlates one’s success and one’s faith. There certainly was some of that in the old days, but I feel it’s gotten much worse even within my lifetime.
I agree, and the “join my church and prosper” or “find jesus and prosper” ministers are really con men and women.
“Jesus wants you to be rich” Makes me ill at heart to see that. Everyone who claims to speak for God or Jesus is lying or deluded.
| 89 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:09:58pm |
re: #79 wozzablog
The working poor need their disposable income to restart the spending in the economy - that will not come from the top.
The rich need to kick in extra tax $ to make up for the $ given back to the working poor to start throwing around at bestbuy…
It’s not rocket science. It’s never been rocket science. Money has to come in to cover whats going out - the GOP only want to see the government losing money. Period.
You want to bring jobs back from overseas? Make sure there is a hungry population in the US willing to work for shits and giggles.
| 90 |
Political Atheist Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:12:10pm |
re: #64 Killgore Trout
There has got to be a better way to do that. UV light maybe, like they do to water?
| 91 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:12:30pm |
re: #89 b_sharp
You want to bring jobs back from overseas? Make sure there is a hungry population in the US willing to work for shits and giggles.
true as blue
| 92 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:12:50pm |
OK, couple of questions here.
Doesn’t the Ryan plan basically copy the Health Care Reform law but for people eligible for Medicare, a couple of years out? Why is that not talked about? I remember during the health care debate that we wanted what Congress had, and he has said himself, this new Medicare plan is just like what Congress has. ??
Also, so you’ve got this Medicare fund and you are going to go out and pick your insurance. You are 62 or 65 whatever. What insurance model is going to accept you? The risk is bad. How can that work as a business model?
| 93 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:12:51pm |
I’m wondering if/when we’ll actually get to see a sensible economic plan out of a major player in Washington. The current national GOP is insane and the current national Democratic leadership is scared to death of even suggesting anything remotely resembling something that might increase revenue.
| 94 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:12:54pm |
re: #90 Rightwingconspirator
There has got to be a better way to do that. UV light maybe, like they do to water?
a propane torch maybe?
| 95 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:13:07pm |
re: #85 Obdicut
THis is the part that is infuriating to me. It is absolutely obvious that for a strong, healthy economy we need money to have velocity, we need a middle and lower class getting and spending money. If all that they can afford is energy, housing, and food, then the economy stagnates.
Economic stagnation is not where anyone wants to be - if the rest of the world gets it right and the USA is suffering with a working class that is doing 60hrs a week just to cover bills it’ll be curtains - the end of economic dominance brought about by consistent mass outlays by the middle and lower classes through history in cars and then home appliances will be a thing of the dim and distant past.
| 96 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:13:41pm |
re: #79 wozzablog
The working poor need their disposable income to restart the spending in the economy - that will not come from the top.
The rich need to kick in extra tax $ to make up for the $ given back to the working poor to start throwing around at bestbuy…
It’s not rocket science. It’s never been rocket science. Money has to come in to cover whats going out - the GOP only want to see the government losing money. Period.
It’s their ideology, the belief that the government simply can’t be trusted. Only major corporations can be trusted, because they have to “answer” to their customers. You know, the kinda mindset that saw the days of child labor, unsafe conditions, 12 hr work days, no weekends, and various other practices that died out in the West decades ago due to labor unions, but are prevalent in the overseas markets where jobs are being shipped.
| 97 |
engineer cat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:13:53pm |
re: #89 b_sharp
You want to bring jobs back from overseas? Make sure there is a hungry population in the US willing to work for shits and giggles.
when i heard alan greenspan testify before congress about the problem of “wage pressures”, i knew that that’s the long term plan
| 98 |
simoom Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:13:55pm |
I posted this earlier, but it makes more sense under this story:
CBO: Seniors would pay much more for Medicare under Ryan plan
Seniors and people with disabilities would pay much more for Medicare under a new plan by Republicans in the House of Representatives that’s aimed at curbing the nation’s growing budget deficit, a Congressional Budget Office analysis shows.For example, by 2030, typical 65-year-olds would be required to pay 68 percent of the cost of their coverage, which includes premiums, deductibles and other out-of-pocket costs, according to the CBO. They’d pay 25 percent under current law, the CBO said.
The GOP budget proposal also would raise the eligibility age for the popular program and repeal big chunks of the health care overhaul law that Congress approved last year.
68% 0_0
| 99 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:14:10pm |
re: #87 engineer dog
perhaps they would be happier if all americans in the bottom 95% were replaced with illegal aliens and contract workers on limited visas
Citizens and … well lets just call them Morlocks.
| 100 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:14:28pm |
re: #93 Simply Sarah
I’m wondering if/when we’ll actually get to see a sensible economic plan out of a major player in Washington. The current national GOP is insane and the current national Democratic leadership is scared to death of even suggesting anything remotely resembling something that might increase revenue.
and you pay for this exquisite affair
| 101 |
thatthatisis Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:14:43pm |
America can’t shoot itself in the foot fast enough. Our rich corporations ship jobs overseas to India and China. Americans who lose jobs, healthcare, safety nets, and pay more taxes, will be too poor to purchase goods.
So the consumers will be in India and China.
When will our corporations wake up and realize that one day India and China - where the consumers and the jobs are - will just cut out the middle man?
| 102 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:14:46pm |
re: #92 Stanley Sea
OK, couple of questions here.
Doesn’t the Ryan plan basically copy the Health Care Reform law but for people eligible for Medicare, a couple of years out? Why is that not talked about? I remember during the health care debate that we wanted what Congress had, and he has said himself, this new Medicare plan is just like what Congress has. ??
Also, so you’ve got this Medicare fund and you are going to go out and pick your insurance. You are 62 or 65 whatever. What insurance model is going to accept you? The risk is bad. How can that work as a business model?
Surprise! It can’t! Well, unless you expect the elderly to pay thousands of dollars a month in premiums. Assuming they can get insurance, of course, which will be hard since a repeal of ACA means preexisting conditions will be able to disqualify again. We all know the elderly never have preexisting health conditions, right?
| 103 |
Political Atheist Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:14:48pm |
re: #89 b_sharp
Nah, just have trade tariff reciprocity. We charge their tariffs they put on our goods to their goods coming in here. No more of this free trade coming in and 40% tariffs on our goods going there. (In this example jewelry to and from China, excluding Hong Kong)
| 105 |
Political Atheist Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:16:29pm |
Have a good evening folks I’m off to meet my Dad and LeftWingConspirator for beers and wings. Play nice!
| 106 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:16:34pm |
re: #93 Simply Sarah
I’m wondering if/when we’ll actually get to see a sensible economic plan out of a major player in Washington. The current national GOP is insane and the current national Democratic leadership is scared to death of even suggesting anything remotely resembling something that might increase revenue.
Ending the Bush tax cuts wouldn’t raise revenue???
| 107 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:17:05pm |
re: #83 dragonfire1981
Isn’t the American dream centered around poor peoplele NOT being poor anymore? I agree that someone needs to work hard to really make it but there’s a fatal flaw in the logic here:
You tell me to work but there are no jobs
You tell me to get private insurance but I either can’t afford it or am denied
You tell me I can make it on my own but make it increasingly difficult for me to do so
You tell me I must eat but cut away my access to food
You tell me you care about me but show that you don’t.The term “American dream” has never been more appropriate. Because the reality is the American dream no longer exists. It is mere fantasy.
It always has been, to some degree. We are a class based society, and we are tied with Great Britain in dead last for social mobility in the industrialized world.
Dead last.
The whole notion that we are taught in school where immigrants get off the boat, have a couple of tough years and then become prosperous through hard work and boot strapping makes for a great moral fable…but it is a fabrication. It is propaganda. It didn’t happen that way. Most immigrants, even from Europe, were not even considered white to begin with (They were called wops, hunkies, Mongolians etc…and were absolutely not considered white) They were shunted into horrible, low paying and dangerous jobs, and children as young as 6 years old were doffing and running machines in the huge, Satanic looking mills right here in North Carolina even in 1908 as long as 12 hours at a time.
Immigrants did not start getting better pay and better conditions for their children until they formed unions. That was how the American Dream started becoming real. Of course, the backlash was immediate and predictably racist, since joining a union became akin to being a foreign agitator. That then became the pretext for bringing in Pinkertons with .30 caliber machine guns at various strike locations.
This story is not new, but I had thought we were beyond it now. My bad.
| 108 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:17:32pm |
re: #106 recusancy
Ending the Bush tax cuts wouldn’t raise revenue???
You talk as if there’s any chance they’ll actually end. I’ll believe it when I see it.
| 109 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:17:42pm |
re: #96 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
It’s their ideology, the belief that the government simply can’t be trusted. Only major corporations can be trusted, because they have to “answer” to their customers. You know, the kinda mindset that saw the days of child labor, unsafe conditions, 12 hr work days, no weekends, and various other practices that died out in the West decades ago due to labor unions, but are prevalent in the overseas markets where jobs are being shipped.
And yet the left are the onces accused of class warfare.
The Boss Class is funding and running the TeaGOP now lock stock and barrel.
I don’t believe there are any (in UK terms) “One Nation” left at all.
| 110 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:18:21pm |
re: #108 Simply Sarah
You talk as if there’s any chance they’ll actually end. I’ll believe it when I see it.
Ok. But they did try last December. They’ll try again at the end of this year.
| 111 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:18:28pm |
re: #109 wozzablog
And yet the left are the onces accused of class warfare.
The Boss Class is funding and running the TeaGOP now lock stock and barrel.
I don’t believe there are any (in UK terms) “One Nation” Republicans left at all.
| 113 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:19:13pm |
re: #92 Stanley Sea
It doesn’t. It just moves the goal posts.
| 114 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:19:24pm |
Last I heard, the Ryan Plan v3.0 can’t even be examined in its entirety by the CBO for the purposes of giving a final price tag, because a lot of it remains vague and subject to “further revision.” Such as promises of a “bipartisan” answer to Social Security and other matters.
| 115 |
engineer cat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:19:34pm |
re: #93 Simply Sarah
I’m wondering if/when we’ll actually get to see a sensible economic plan out of a major player in Washington. The current national GOP is insane and the current national Democratic leadership is scared to death of even suggesting anything remotely resembling something that might increase revenue.
well, the extension of the bush tax cuts is due to run out at about election time 2012
i’m hoping that obama’s agreement to the extension last december turns out to be a brilliant ploy to wrap it around the necks of the gop come november
| 116 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:20:36pm |
re: #114 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Last I heard, the Ryan Plan v3.0 can’t even be examined in its entirety by the CBO for the purposes of giving a final price tag, because a lot of it remains vague and subject to “further revision.” Such as promises of a “bipartisan” answer to Social Security and other matters.
It’s hard to give specifics when the generalities are already clearly held together by scotch tape and pixie dust.
| 117 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:20:38pm |
re: #95 wozzablog
Economic stagnation is not where anyone wants to be - if the rest of the world gets it right and the USA is suffering with a working class that is doing 60hrs a week just to cover bills it’ll be curtains - the end of economic dominance brought about by consistent mass outlays by the middle and lower classes through history in cars and then home appliances will be a thing of the dim and distant past.
The economic elites don’t give a shit about that. I read a quote in the Atlantic last month from some millionaire at the Aspen Institute who was of the opinion that the Middle Class is overdue for a pay cut. He said something to the effect that if they want twice the pay of somebody in India, they fucking well better deliver twice the value.
He wasn’t the only millionaire with that attitude either, apparently.
| 118 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:20:40pm |
re: #107 celticdragon
It always has been, to some degree. We are a class based society, and we are tied with Great Britain in dead last for social mobility in the industrialized world.
Dead last.
The whole notion that we are taught in school where immigrants get off the boat, have a couple of tough years and then become prosperous through hard work and boot strapping makes for a great moral fable…but it is a fabrication. It is propaganda. It didn’t happen that way. Most immigrants, even from Europe, were not even considered white to begin with (They were called wops, hunkies, Mongolians etc…and were absolutely not considered white) They were shunted into horrible, low paying and dangerous jobs, and children as young as 6 years old were doffing and running machines in the huge, Satanic looking mills right here in North Carolina even in 1908 as long as 12 hours at a time.
Immigrants did not start getting better pay and better conditions for their children until they formed unions. That was how the American Dream started becoming real. Of course, the backlash was immediate and predictably racist, since joining a union became akin to being a foreign agitator. That then became the pretext for bringing in Pinkertons with .30 caliber machine guns at various strike locations.
This story is not new, but I had thought we were beyond it now. My bad.
I dispute this entirely…something for everybody and maybe even financial success is a direct result of our western expansion
| 119 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:21:26pm |
re: #117 celticdragon
The economic elites don’t give a shit about that. I read a quote in the Atlantic last month from some millionaire at the Aspen Institute who was of the opinion that the Middle Class is overdue for a pay cut. He said something to the effect that if they want twice the pay of somebody in India, they fucking well better deliver twice the value.
He wasn’t the only millionaire with that attitude either, apparently.
Race to the bottom is the name of the game. And it has worked fantastically well for them.
| 120 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:21:41pm |
re: #116 Simply Sarah
It’s hard to give specifics when the generalities are already clearly held together by scotch tape and pixie dust.
Yeah, but we’re basically supposed to take the Plan, as is, and expect Congress to fix it later on. Hmm, where have I heard that before…
| 121 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:21:45pm |
re: #101 thatthatisis
America can’t shoot itself in the foot fast enough. Our rich corporations ship jobs overseas to India and China. Americans who lose jobs, healthcare, safety nets, and pay more taxes, will be too poor to purchase goods.
So the consumers will be in India and China.
When will our corporations wake up and realize that one day India and China - where the consumers and the jobs are - will just cut out the middle man?
The consumers are the top 10% of Americans. The US is a net importer, where most other countries are net exporters.
| 122 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:23:08pm |
re: #118 albusteve
I dispute this entirely…something for everybody and maybe even financial success is a direct result of our western expansion
Good for you. I look forward to the paper you wrote on it in your US social history class. I can back my work up. I can email it if you like.
| 123 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:23:47pm |
re: #117 celticdragon
The economic elites don’t give a shit about that. I read a quote in the Atlantic last month from some millionaire at the Aspen Institute who was of the opinion that the Middle Class is overdue for a pay cut. He said something to the effect that if they want twice the pay of somebody in India, they fucking well better deliver twice the value.
He wasn’t the only millionaire with that attitude either, apparently.
Was he the millionaire owner of a company that produces things people on lower and middle incomes will buy? - hopefully not or he is the dumbest piece of sit on the planet.
Millions of working people are below the poverty line - millions more are one or two paychecks away, tens of millions more are a medical bill away…..
It’s just plain fucking nuts in economic terms.
| 124 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:24:15pm |
re: #103 Rightwingconspirator
Nah, just have trade tariff reciprocity. We charge their tariffs they put on our goods to their goods coming in here. No more of this free trade coming in and 40% tariffs on our goods going there. (In this example jewelry to and from China, excluding Hong Kong)
Labour here gets paid $10.00/hr, over there they get paid $10.00 a day.
Who can afford the tariffs better?
| 125 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:24:18pm |
re: #122 celticdragon
Good for you. I look forward to the paper you wrote on it in your US social history class. I can back my work up. I can email it if you like.
well…TOUCHE!
| 126 |
kirkspencer Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:25:09pm |
re: #92 Stanley Sea
OK, couple of questions here.
Doesn’t the Ryan plan basically copy the Health Care Reform law but for people eligible for Medicare, a couple of years out? Why is that not talked about? I remember during the health care debate that we wanted what Congress had, and he has said himself, this new Medicare plan is just like what Congress has. ??
Also, so you’ve got this Medicare fund and you are going to go out and pick your insurance. You are 62 or 65 whatever. What insurance model is going to accept you? The risk is bad. How can that work as a business model?
To the first question, yes it does. Here’s the thing - remember all the calls for “single payer?” And how they were told they couldn’t get that, but they could get this as a compromise? Medicare is single payer - it’s what some of us wanted. So the key isn’t what the plan is, it’s where it’s moving from.
| 127 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:26:02pm |
re: #117 celticdragon
The economic elites don’t give a shit about that. I read a quote in the Atlantic last month from some millionaire at the Aspen Institute who was of the opinion that the Middle Class is overdue for a pay cut. He said something to the effect that if they want twice the pay of somebody in India, they fucking well better deliver twice the value.
He wasn’t the only millionaire with that attitude either, apparently.
Reminds me of the frontpage article in the Virginian Pilot ‘bout a week back, which I only had a chance to skim. Basically it said what should be obvious to everybody, which is that the “recovery” happening in this nation stands in stark contrast with the ones going on in other major Western nations. Why? Because while they’ve started putting on jobs and getting people back to work, our corporations have either kept the same number of jobs or shed some. So how is it we’re “recovering”? Because workers who still have jobs are expected to produce twice the productivity as before, but with no corresponding increase in wages or benefits.
The elite of this nation truly do believe that the workers in their factories are no different than the machines that they run. Oh wait, my mistake, they do think they’re different: the machines don’t ask for raises or time off.
| 128 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:26:05pm |
re: #116 Simply Sarah
It’s hard to give specifics when the generalities are already clearly held together by scotch tape and pixie dust.
And deleted charts.
| 129 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:26:16pm |
re: #124 b_sharp
Labour here gets paid $10.00/hr, over there they get paid $10.00 a day.
Who can afford the tariffs better?
Marco Polo all over again
| 130 |
kirkspencer Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:26:40pm |
re: #114 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Last I heard, the Ryan Plan v3.0 can’t even be examined in its entirety by the CBO for the purposes of giving a final price tag, because a lot of it remains vague and subject to “further revision.” Such as promises of a “bipartisan” answer to Social Security and other matters.
The promise that tax loopholes will be closed without discussing which — or the statement they’ll consolidate tax brackets with the highest being 25%, but not saying how many brackets will remain or (if it’s more than a flat tax) what they’ll be. Oh, yeah, the list goes on.
| 131 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:27:09pm |
re: #127 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Reminds me of the frontpage article in the Virginian Pilot ‘bout a week back, which I only had a chance to skim. Basically it said what should be obvious to everybody, which is that the “recovery” happening in this nation stands in stark contrast with the ones going on in other major Western nations. Why? Because while they’ve started putting on jobs and getting people back to work, our corporations have either kept the same number of jobs or shed some. So how is it we’re “recovering”? Because workers who still have jobs are expected to produce twice the productivity as before, but with no corresponding increase in wages or benefits.
The elite of this nation truly do believe that the workers in their factories are no different than the machines that they run. Oh wait, my mistake, they do think they’re different: the machines don’t ask for raises or time off.
Welcome to the Japan of the last decade and a half.
| 132 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:28:00pm |
The non partisan CBO says Ryan’s plan would lead to rationing. I swear everything the Republicans accuse the Democrats of doing they actually do.
| 133 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:28:11pm |
re: #130 kirkspencer
The promise that tax loopholes will be closed without discussing which — or the statement they’ll consolidate tax brackets with the highest being 25%, but not saying how many brackets will remain or (if it’s more than a flat tax) what they’ll be. Oh, yeah, the list goes on.
Yep, everything that the Right supposedly reviled and hated about the ACA, the Ryan Plan is in spades.
| 134 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:28:52pm |
What we need right now is a god damn socialist movement. Like, real socialists. Not because I think all the ideas will be the best, but because I’m starting to think that the only way people will ever realize that the choices they’re being offered right now are between a conservative viewpoint and a wacky ultra-right viewpoint is for there to be a legitimate force coming from the *actual* left.
| 135 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:29:17pm |
re: #133 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yep, everything that the Right supposedly reviled and hated about the ACA, the Ryan Plan is in spades.
The Right wrote the ACA - and then refused to vote for it.
| 136 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:29:19pm |
re: #123 wozzablog
Was he the millionaire owner of a company that produces things people on lower and middle incomes will buy? - hopefully not or he is the dumbest piece of sit on the planet.
Millions of working people are below the poverty line - millions more are one or two paychecks away, tens of millions more are a medical bill away…
It’s just plain fucking nuts in economic terms.
According to Citigroup, the UNited States is a plutonomy run by and on the behalf of, the top 5% in terms of wealth. The document suggests that so much wealth is concentrated at the top that it is now advisable to ignore investing in consumer products for the lower and middle classes and steer investments towards high end luxury items.
| 137 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:31:08pm |
re: #125 albusteve
well…TOUCHE!
Again, I researched the topic and wrote about it. You respond with…nothing. I am willing to forward my work to you or put it on Scribd if you prefer.
If you have any documented work to rebut mine, I am willing to read it.
| 138 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:31:55pm |
Hmmm. Remember the preemptive strike on the AARP?
| 139 |
engineer cat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:31:56pm |
re: #134 Simply Sarah
What we need right now is a god damn socialist movement. Like, real socialists. Not because I think all the ideas will be the best, but because I’m starting to think that the only way people will ever realize that the choices they’re being offered right now are between a conservative viewpoint and a wacky ultra-right viewpoint is for there to be a legitimate force coming from the *actual* left.
if we had real socialists, and even communists in this country, not only might americans have a realistic idea of what the words mean, but we might even be able to begin to move the overton window back towards the center again
| 140 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:32:38pm |
re: #136 celticdragon
According to Citigroup, the UNited States is a plutonomy run by and on the behalf of, the top 5% in terms of wealth. The document suggests that so much wealth is concentrated at the top that it is now advisable to ignore investing in consumer products for the lower and middle classes and steer investments towards high end luxury items.
Honestly - i’m not surprised.
Younger middle class consumers do not have the disposable income their parents did in the same professions.
| 141 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:33:00pm |
re: #132 recusancy
The non partisan CBO says Ryan’s plan would lead to rationing. I swear everything the Republicans accuse the Democrats of doing they actually do.
Don’t worry! It won’t be the evil government doing the rationing, only honorable private businesses! Democracy and capitalism is saved!
| 142 |
avanti Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:33:09pm |
re: #3 Rightwingconspirator
Pity the powerless. This is “Bully” politics.
All you do is avoid the cuts your big contributors object to, and voila! You get the above chart.
Redistribution of wealth is OK, if you take from the poor to help the rich.
| 143 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:33:38pm |
re: #93 Simply Sarah
I’m wondering if/when we’ll actually get to see a sensible economic plan out of a major player in Washington. The current national GOP is insane and the current national Democratic leadership is scared to death of even suggesting anything remotely resembling something that might increase revenue.
This could be magical thinking because the Democrats would have to get smart and learn to frame and argument, but here goes.
This budget is so awful in it’s radical unfairness and immorality that the Democrats may actually be able to put forth a counter plan that includes tax increases for the rich, cuts in defense spending and reforms to SS and Medicare like means testing, a raise in the eligibility age, and paying doctors more for outcomes and in fees for services. Under normal circumstances these types of changes could also be unpopular, but in comparison to the Ayn Ryan proposal they would be much more acceptable.
The Democrats have an opportunity to put together a long term deficit reduction plan that will include sacrifices for everyone, but with the bulk of those sacrifices on those who can most afford them. But like I said, they may not be that smart or capable of making the argument.
| 144 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:33:51pm |
re: #136 celticdragon
According to Citigroup, the UNited States is a plutonomy run by and on the behalf of, the top 5% in terms of wealth. The document suggests that so much wealth is concentrated at the top that it is now advisable to ignore investing in consumer products for the lower and middle classes and steer investments towards high end luxury items.
Holy shit. They actually admitted it.
| 145 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:34:49pm |
re: #138 Stanley Sea
Hmmm. Remember the preemptive strike on the AARP?
Yep, I figured they were going to wait a little longer before doing this. But it seems they’ve decided that, with the shutdown coming, their “solution” is to pimp the Ryan Plan as being “on the table,” saying that there’s no Democrat alternative. Even with the Plan being savaged as it is, they’re likely to declare that “This is just to get a ‘dialogue’ started. What are the Democrats offering?”
| 146 |
Renaissance_Man Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:34:53pm |
It’s actually kind of hard to believe that here, in the most powerful country in history, with such a huge number of educated people, that a sweeping economic plan that is so obviously, provably, based on total fantasy can not only be presented as fact, but will be uncritically accepted as fact by something approaching 50% of the adult population.
I’m not even sure where the fault lies. Is it the religion of Objectivism? Is it deliberate propaganda on the part of a small group of very wealthy people that stand to gain a lot? Is it massive public ennui? I don’t know. This economic plan won’t happen this year anyway. Nor will it happen next year. And probably not for another five, six years. But it might happen late in the next decade. And by then, Americans may well be so thoroughly indoctrinated that it won’t just be a significant minority that will believe that the failures and ruin brought about by a plan like this will still be the fault of liberals.
| 147 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:35:05pm |
re: #137 celticdragon
Again, I researched the topic and wrote about it. You respond with…nothing. I am willing to forward my work to you or put it on Scribd if you prefer.
If you have any documented work to rebut mine, I am willing to read it.
to me it’s not scholar worthy, not that I doubt you….but without such a huge amount of real estate, packed with natural resources, there would never have been an American dream….and those resources were sought after from east to west for the most part
| 148 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:35:59pm |
re: #143 moderatelyradicalliberal
This could be magical thinking because the Democrats would have to get smart and learn to frame and argument, but here goes.
This budget is so awful in it’s radical unfairness and immorality that the Democrats may actually be able to put forth a counter plan that includes tax increases for the rich, cuts in defense spending and reforms to SS and Medicare like means testing, a raise in the eligibility age, and paying doctors more for outcomes and in fees for services. Under normal circumstances these types of changes could also be unpopular, but in comparison to the Ayn Ryan proposal they would be much more acceptable.
The Democrats have an opportunity to put together a long term deficit reduction plan that will include sacrifices for everyone, but with the bulk of those sacrifices on those who can most afford them. But like I said, they may not be that smart or capable of making the argument.
Maybe. I suppose I’m still pretty sold on the idea that the American public (Or, at least, a very vocal part of it) has been conditioned to have a knee-jerk ultra negative reaction to anything involving the words “tax” and “increase” (Or which can be somehow associated with said words).
| 149 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:36:00pm |
re: #146 Renaissance_Man
Selfishness, IMHO.
| 150 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:37:08pm |
re: #132 recusancy
The non partisan CBO says Ryan’s plan would lead to rationing. I swear everything the Republicans accuse the Democrats of doing they actually do.
I’ve said this many times. If a Republican tells you someone stole $20 from you, check the Republican’s pocket for your $20.
| 151 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:37:21pm |
(I’m way too young to be this bitter, cynical and disillusioned.)
| 153 |
engineer cat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:37:49pm |
re: #137 celticdragon
Again, I researched the topic and wrote about it. You respond with…nothing. I am willing to forward my work to you or put it on Scribd if you prefer.
If you have any documented work to rebut mine, I am willing to read it.
also, of course, the promise of free land for american settlers in the time before the 1890s, that was so different than what was available in europe, and made such a difference at first, had turned sour by the 2nd half of the 19th century, when the original settler stock farmers became more and more under the thumb of the trusts and the banks, and barely squeezing out a living - and responded with the grange, the populist party and other related movements
but, unfortunately, if you dare to recall the facts of the industrial revolution and the impoverishment of american farmers in the 19th cen, wingnuts are empowered to wish it all away with the magic phrase “revisionist history”
| 154 |
wrenchwench Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:37:50pm |
Maybe he’s here to explain this:
conservativedanKarma: 0
Registered since: Jun 25, 2007 at 8:24 am
(Logged in)No. of comments posted: 1
No. of links posted: 0
| 155 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:38:05pm |
re: #136 celticdragon
According to Citigroup, the UNited States is a plutonomy run by and on the behalf of, the top 5% in terms of wealth. The document suggests that so much wealth is concentrated at the top that it is now advisable to ignore investing in consumer products for the lower and middle classes and steer investments towards high end luxury items.
There is one alternative. Buy Chinese company stocks (on the US exchanges), and I see some on Wall Street are now touting Egyptian stocks.
| 156 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:38:45pm |
re: #151 Simply Sarah
(I’m way too young to be this bitter, cynical and disillusioned.)
enjoy it while it lasts!
| 157 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:38:48pm |
re: #154 wrenchwench
Or, this..
Karma: -27
hugh59
(Logged in)
Registered since: Sep 12, 2004 at 4:02 pm
No. of comments posted: 47
No. of Pages posted: 0
| 159 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:39:42pm |
| 160 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:40:06pm |
re: #155 Naso Tang
There is one alternative. Buy Chinese company stocks (on the US exchanges), and I see some on Wall Street are now touting Egyptian stocks.
Egypt is a very smart long term buy.
Any investor will have to ride out the structural problems with the economy - but once the young people there are put to work on building infrastructure outside Cairo and Alexandria - the potential to grow is pretty good.
| 161 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:40:11pm |
| 162 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:40:23pm |
| 164 |
engineer cat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:40:43pm |
re: #143 moderatelyradicalliberal
This budget is so awful in it’s radical unfairness and immorality
repeated for truth and to highlight the important word: ‘immorality’
| 165 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:40:45pm |
re: #159 Simply Sarah
The youth!
Being bitter, cynical & disillusioned can wait!
Scatter rosepetals while you may!
| 166 |
rwmofo Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:40:48pm |
Man, has anyone noticed how much Obama has increased the price for a gallon of gas?
| 167 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:40:57pm |
re: #159 Simply Sarah
My youth or being bitter, cynical and disillusioned?
Youth! I appreciate someone younger being involved, opinionated. Fuck. the times are calling for bitter, cynical and disillusioned. (Although they always call for that) Enjoy the ride and contribute.
| 168 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:41:25pm |
re: #166 rwmofo
Man, has anyone noticed how much Obama has increased the price for a gallon of gas?
Why do you think Obama has increased the price of gas?
| 169 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:41:49pm |
re: #168 Floral Giraffe
Why do you think Obama has increased the price of gas?
He’s trolling. Don’t pay attention.
| 170 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:41:58pm |
re: #166 rwmofo
Man, has anyone noticed how much
ObamaOPEC has increased the price for a gallon of gas?
FIFY
| 171 |
wrenchwench Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:42:05pm |
re: #157 Floral Giraffe
Or, this..
Karma: -27hugh59
(Logged in)
Registered since: Sep 12, 2004 at 4:02 pm
No. of comments posted: 47
No. of Pages posted: 0
At least he has recent comments to look at. I didn’t want to go searching for Dan’s single comment. It didn’t come up in the “recent” category.
| 172 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:42:37pm |
LOL!
I swear I see that dude’s nic as ROTFLMAO, and the photo is of St. Ronnie.
| 173 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:42:47pm |
re: #166 rwmofo
Man, has anyone noticed how much Obama has increased the price for a gallon of gas?
I pay $1.25/litre. A month ago it was $1.19/litre.
Damned Obama.
What do you mean $.06 is less than $1.19?
| 174 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:43:17pm |
re: #172 Stanley Sea
LOL!
I swear I see that dude’s nic as ROTFLMAO, and the photo is of St. Ronnie.
LOL!
I need to get those goggles on!
| 175 |
rwmofo Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:43:38pm |
I’m trying to do a comparison, but can’t find last year’s fiscal budget - when the Democrat Party was totally in charge of congress. I’ll keep looking.
| 176 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:43:44pm |
Do not change the sub to gas. Please. The ipitomy of troll success.
| 177 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:44:01pm |
re: #172 Stanley Sea
LOL!
I swear I see that dude’s nic as ROTFLMAO, and the photo is of St. Ronnie.
What are you drinking?
| 178 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:44:06pm |
re: #175 rwmofo
I’m trying to do a comparison, but can’t find last year’s fiscal budget - when the Democrat Party was totally in charge of congress. I’ll keep looking.
WHY, why? (Nancy Kerrigan voice)
| 179 |
wrenchwench Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:44:27pm |
re: #175 rwmofo
I’m trying to do a comparison, but can’t find last year’s fiscal budget - when the Democrat Party was totally in charge of congress. I’ll keep looking.
Take your time….
| 180 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:44:31pm |
| 181 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:45:03pm |
re: #176 Stanley Sea
Do not change the sub to gas. Please. The ipitomy of troll success.
what’s the subject again?
| 182 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:45:10pm |
re: #148 Simply Sarah
Maybe. I suppose I’m still pretty sold on the idea that the American public (Or, at least, a very vocal part of it) has been conditioned to have a knee-jerk ultra negative reaction to anything involving the words “tax” and “increase” (Or which can be somehow associated with said words).
Actually, polls on the question of ending the Bush tax cuts for the top 2% have shown that a solid majority of Americans are consistently in favor it. Even a sizable chunk of Republicans are in favor. I agree with you that the normal knee-jerk response would be to be against tax increase, but Americans aren’t stupid or heartless all of the time. I saw a poll today showing that most Americans (59%) don’t even want severe cuts to Medicaid and it’s supposed to be the most unpopular entitlement program because it is a social welfare program. The base of the TeaGOP is loud and motivated, but they are not a majority of Americans. Nowhere near in fact.
| 183 |
celticdragon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:45:10pm |
re: #147 albusteve
to me it’s not scholar worthy, not that I doubt you…but without such a huge amount of real estate, packed with natural resources, there would never have been an American dream…and those resources were sought after from east to west for the most part
The resources were worked by immigrants from Eastern Europe, Italy, China and sometimes Mexico for pennies on every dollar earned by the owners. If you got killed in the mines, that was tough shit for you and your family. You were paid in script that could only be redeemed at a company store to buy wildly inflated goods. Wives and daughters were sometimes pulled into ‘rape rooms’ in the back of stores and assaulted by company thugs who then threatened their husbands’ or fathers’ jobs if they told. Children under the age of ten were not in school. They were in the mills and mines getting an early start on brown lung and black lung. Doors were locked in sweatshops, leading to agonizing death when fires broke out in the clothing factories.
People came because things were even worse in Europe, as hard as that is to believe, and because they were told that America was rich.
They ended up in overcrowded tenement firetraps without sanitation, or in company owned shotgun shacks that they were perpetually in debt to since the company was sure to pay less then the mortgage. They put up with the bullshit as best as they could, and their kids had to make do as well with the 10 and 12 hour shifts and the accidents that cut off tiny feet or hands.
| 184 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:45:20pm |
| 185 |
avanti Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:45:20pm |
I’d support raising the SS retirement age slowly, but not to effect those say 15-20 years away from retiremnt. Maybe raise the level of SS withholding to say 250K incomes, perhaps even reduced/eliminated payments to the truly wealthy that don’t need it. Yep, it’s wealth redistribution, sorry, but I am a Commie after all./
| 186 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:45:27pm |
re: #175 rwmofo
I’m trying to do a comparison, but can’t find last year’s fiscal budget - when the Democrat Party was totally in charge of congress. I’ll keep looking.
A budget has to pass the senate, by February of 2010 when the Democrats had their budget ready Scott Brown had gotten elected and so any plan they tried to pass needed his or some other Republican’s approval.
Filibusters suck, next question?
| 188 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:46:00pm |
re: #167 Stanley Sea
Youth! I appreciate someone younger being involved, opinionated. Fuck. the times are calling for bitter, cynical and disillusioned. (Although they always call for that) Enjoy the ride and contribute.
Well, it’s true that a huge part of the problem is that a lot of people my age *aren’t* involved and *don’t* have real informed opinions. If we could organize in any amount, things would be a changing.
| 190 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:46:33pm |
| 191 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:46:50pm |
re: #185 avanti
I do think SS payments should be tied to recipients incomes, in some way. Starting now. If you make $300K in income, why are you receiving SS payments? You don’t need them.
| 192 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:46:59pm |
re: #175 rwmofo
I’m trying to do a comparison, but can’t find last year’s fiscal budget - when the Democrat Party was totally in charge of congress. I’ll keep looking.
Will there be anything approaching a cogent and arguable point in any of our near futures?
| 193 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:47:08pm |
re: #182 moderatelyradicalliberal
Actually, polls on the question of ending the Bush tax cuts for the top 2% have shown that a solid majority of Americans are consistently in favor it. Even a sizable chunk of Republicans are in favor. I agree with you that the normal knee-jerk response would be to be against tax increase, but Americans aren’t stupid or heartless all of the time. I saw a poll today showing that most Americans (59%) don’t even want severe cuts to Medicaid and it’s supposed to be the most unpopular entitlement program because it is a social welfare program. The base of the TeaGOP is loud and motivated, but they are not a majority of Americans. Nowhere near in fact.
so representation in DC sucks…I get it
if you want some influence, become a rich lobby
| 194 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:47:15pm |
re: #182 moderatelyradicalliberal
Actually, polls on the question of ending the Bush tax cuts for the top 2% have shown that a solid majority of Americans are consistently in favor it. Even a sizable chunk of Republicans are in favor. I agree with you that the normal knee-jerk response would be to be against tax increase, but Americans aren’t stupid or heartless all of the time. I saw a poll today showing that most Americans (59%) don’t even want severe cuts to Medicaid and it’s supposed to be the most unpopular entitlement program because it is a social welfare program. The base of the TeaGOP is loud and motivated, but they are not a majority of Americans. Nowhere near in fact.
The difference is that the TPGOP went out and voted. Too many of the more rational people don’t.
| 195 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:47:30pm |
| 197 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:48:07pm |
| 200 |
wrenchwench Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:48:16pm |
re: #194 Simply Sarah
The difference is that the TPGOP went out and voted. Too many of the more rational people don’t.
And especially the YOUNG rational people. Organizing is key!
| 202 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:48:34pm |
re: #146 Renaissance_Man
I’m not even sure where the fault lies.
At the risk of sounding pompous, the fault lies with a tendency to tribalism which is inherent in human nature.
Tribalism gives importance to people because they can measure themselves against other tribes, and they can easily find blame for problems in the others. We evolved in groups where everyone knew everyone who mattered and the only real danger came from other groups. When our leaders tell us that it is the others who are the problem, instead of telling us that the others are just like us then we revert easily.
Our leaders are becoming populists acting in their own best interests instead of the collective, and we like it.
| 203 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:48:59pm |
re: #200 wrenchwench
And especially the YOUNG rational people. Organizing is key!
one step at a time comrade
| 204 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:50:05pm |
re: #197 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Communist! We got a red right here! Somebody call the FBI!
///
Ketel One, The Netherlands. Great place to represent. They have socialized medicine right?
| 205 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:50:12pm |
re: #200 wrenchwench
And especially the YOUNG rational people. Organizing is key!
Well, that’s why in New Hampshire they were talking about restricting/removing the right of college students to vote. Too “liberal”. God, every time I think of that, I cannot fathom that I’m not actually making that up.
| 206 |
wrenchwench Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:51:53pm |
re: #205 Simply Sarah
Well, that’s why in New Hampshire they were talking about restricting/removing the right of college students to vote. Too “liberal”. God, every time I think of that, I cannot fathom that I’m not actually making that up.
That’s a battle from the 70’s being re-fought. Right after 18 year olds were given the vote it became an issue. Mr. w was an organizer in Pennsylvania at the time….
| 207 |
rwmofo Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:52:09pm |
Jeez. I was just listening to Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. I think it’s fair to say she is quickly becoming the nation’s leading cause of erectile dysfunction.
| 208 |
engineer cat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:52:12pm |
re: #166 rwmofo
Man, has anyone noticed how much Obama has increased the price for a gallon of gas?
i knew there had to be a universe where obama was the ceo of exxon!
| 209 |
avanti Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:53:07pm |
re: #191 Floral Giraffe
I do think SS payments should be tied to recipients incomes, in some way. Starting now. If you make $300K in income, why are you receiving SS payments? You don’t need them.
To take the conservative side of the argument, it’s at least partially your money that you paid in. I get the principle, but than again the extra 1K/month would not buy a decent suit for the truly rich so they won’t miss it as much as someone needs it to keep food on the table. (My Commie side again)
| 210 |
wrenchwench Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:53:09pm |
re: #202 Naso Tang
At the risk of sounding pompous, the fault lies with a tendency to tribalism which is inherent in human nature.
Tribalism gives importance to people because they can measure themselves against other tribes, and they can easily find blame for problems in the others. We evolved in groups where everyone knew everyone who mattered and the only real danger came from other groups. When our leaders tell us that it is the others who are the problem, instead of telling us that the others are just like us then we revert easily.
Our leaders are becoming populists acting in their own best interests instead of the collective, and we like it.
It’s not genetic. We may have evolved in groups, but genes do not determine behavior as clearly as your comment implies.
| 212 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:53:18pm |
re: #164 engineer dog
repeated for truth and to highlight the important word: ‘immorality’
President Obama, and I think he could do this, needs to make this a moral issue. Budgets are not just a list of spending, they are a list of priorities based on values. He needs to make Americans decide: Are we a country that wants to throw it’s most vulnerable and powerless citizens under the bus while giving huge tax cuts to it’s richest and therefor most advantaged and privileged citizens? We created a safety net because it was needed and it’s still needed. About 40% of the country won’t listen, but I’m betting a good 60% will. Ryan’s budget is immoral and not even truly conservative. It is even dare I say, un-Christian. The president doesn’t have to lie about what this budget will do, he just needs to tell the truth. The truth is often worse than any lie you can tell.
| 214 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:54:21pm |
re: #4 RadicalModerate
Baloney. Paul Ryan put together ideas to reform Medicare, so that it is able to keep working without drastic cuts to care or rationing. His block grant idea isn’t any species of ‘war’, its a serious reform idea. But the left will call it ‘war on the poor’, because their strategy is to scare seniors into think republicans are trying to kill them.
| 215 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:54:34pm |
re: #209 avanti
To take the conservative side of the argument, it’s at least partially your money that you paid in. I get the principle, but than again the extra 1K/month would not buy a decent suit for the truly rich so they won’t miss it as much as someone needs it to keep food on the table. (My Commie side again)
Yeah, the paid into it thing I totally get.
| 216 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:55:20pm |
re: #208 engineer dog
i knew there had to be a universe where obama was the ceo of exxon!
Infinite universes, everything happens at least once.
| 217 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:55:30pm |
re: #214 Dark_Falcon
Baloney. Paul Ryan put together ideas to reform Medicare, so that it is able to keep working without drastic cuts to care or rationing. His block grant idea isn’t any species of ‘war’, its a serious reform idea. But the left will call it ‘war on the poor’, because their strategy is to scare seniors into think republicans are trying to kill them.
Do you think the overall break down of cuts qualifies as a “war” of sorts Dark?
| 218 |
avanti Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:55:35pm |
re: #207 rwmofo
I think she’s sorta cute with that big liberal brain in a nice Jewish package. ( My sexist side)
| 219 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:55:41pm |
re: #214 Dark_Falcon
Baloney. Paul Ryan put together ideas to reform Medicare, so that it is able to keep working without drastic cuts to care or rationing. His block grant idea isn’t any species of ‘war’, its a serious reform idea. But the left will call it ‘war on the poor’, because their strategy is to scare seniors into think republicans are trying to kill them.
‘Reform’ means ‘to obliterate’ now? Man, I’m behind the times. I had better get a new dictionary.
| 221 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:56:06pm |
re: #214 Dark_Falcon
Do you think this is false?
For example, by 2030, typical 65-year-olds would be required to pay 68 percent of the cost of their coverage, which includes premiums, deductibles and other out-of-pocket costs, according to the CBO. They’d pay 25 percent under current law, the CBO said.
| 222 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:56:32pm |
re: #214 Dark_Falcon
Baloney. Paul Ryan put together ideas to reform Medicare, so that it is able to keep working without drastic cuts to care or rationing. His block grant idea isn’t any species of ‘war’, its a serious reform idea. But the left will call it ‘war on the poor’, because their strategy is to scare seniors into think republicans are trying to kill them.
Some form of rationing is required - every health service in the world acknowledges this and for no worse outcomes for a third less cost.
Americans are the most tested and least healthy.
Tackling the structural problems within the care system will provide as much if not more saving.
| 223 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:56:33pm |
re: #207 rwmofo
Dude, that’s not cool. Go after her arguments, not her looks.
| 225 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:56:54pm |
| 226 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:56:58pm |
| 227 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:57:00pm |
re: #207 rwmofo
Jeez. I was just listening to Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. I think it’s fair to say she is quickly becoming the nation’s leading cause of erectile dysfunction.
Don’t blame her if you can’t get it up, limp dick.
| 229 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:57:46pm |
| 230 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:58:12pm |
re: #214 Dark_Falcon
Baloney. Paul Ryan put together ideas to reform Medicare, so that it is able to keep working without drastic cuts to care or rationing. His block grant idea isn’t any species of ‘war’, its a serious reform idea. But the left will call it ‘war on the poor’, because their strategy is to scare seniors into think republicans are trying to kill them.
How do we at 62 purchase a plan on the open market that will cover our pre-existings and future illnesses? What insurance companies have signed on to this idea??
Medicare is a safety net, and to change it will remove the safety net.
| 232 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:58:39pm |
Let’s see…
- Obscenely wealthy upper class, where the rich and well-connected buy and sell influence, operating businesses and factories that little better than sweat shops, with a general disdain the working man.
- An increasingly useless ruling class, with the few voices in favor of the working class and poor drowned out by those in the pockets of upper classes, arguing that poor, dumb workers are better for the country because they provide a great wealth of cheap labor to industries.
- A history of going into futile war after futile war, spending mountains of treasure and manpower for little gain, except for the gains made by the upper class who control the arms industries.
- And an increasingly impoverished working class, which has little political power, but is expected to bear the burden of the state’s taxes and fees. Yet they’re told that their desires for basic needs, from food and shelter to medical care, are too expensive for the government to provide, but the market prices out of their reach.
Funny, I’m sure I’ve seen this scenario before. The word “Romanov” keeps popping into my head.
| 233 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:59:40pm |
| 235 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:00:46pm |
re: #219 Simply Sarah
‘Reform’ means ‘to obliterate’ now? Man, I’m behind the times. I had better get a new dictionary.
He proposed a system of grants that would lead to cost savings. It’s designed to be easier to administer and use and thus allow for the system to be run by a smaller workforce and consume less doctor and patient time.
As for jobs training, what Congressman Ryan proposed was consolidation. His view is that there are too many programs and that they are duplicating each other’s functions. He wants reform to reduce overhead and administrative staff, while still providing the job training. The reason this gets objections is that some in politics use those administrative positions as political plums.
| 236 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:00:48pm |
| 238 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:01:00pm |
re: #230 Stanley Sea
How do we at 62 purchase a plan on the open market that will cover our pre-existings and future illnesses? What insurance companies have signed on to this idea??
Medicare is a safety net, and to change it will remove the safety net.
I would like to see Medicare and Medicaid eliminated. Single Payer.
| 239 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:01:18pm |
re: #232 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Let’s see…
- Obscenely wealthy upper class, where the rich and well-connected buy and sell influence, operating businesses and factories that little better than sweat shops, with a general disdain the working man.
- An increasingly useless ruling class, with the few voices in favor of the working class and poor drowned out by those in the pockets of upper classes, arguing that poor, dumb workers are better for the country because they provide a great wealth of cheap labor to industries.
- A history of going into futile war after futile war, spending mountains of treasure and manpower for little gain, except for the gains made by the upper class who control the arms industries.
- And an increasingly impoverished working class, which has little political power, but is expected to bear the burden of the state’s taxes and fees. Yet they’re told that their desires for basic needs, from food and shelter to medical care, are too expensive for the government to provide, but the market prices out of their reach.
Funny, I’m sure I’ve seen this scenario before. The word “Romanov” keeps popping into my head.
A large gap between the rich and the poor never ends well.
| 240 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:01:54pm |
re: #238 Decatur Deb
I would like to see Medicare and Medicaid eliminated. Single Payer.
You mean expanded. Medicare is single payer. And yes I agree. Single payer!
| 241 |
engineer cat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:02:12pm |
re: #214 Dark_Falcon
Baloney. Paul Ryan put together ideas to reform Medicare, so that it is able to keep working without drastic cuts to care or rationing. His block grant idea isn’t any species of ‘war’, its a serious reform idea. But the left will call it ‘war on the poor’, because their strategy is to scare seniors into think republicans are trying to kill them.
i have an idea to reform medicare:
did you know that bush’s medicare drug benefit law specifically forbids the u.s government from negotiating down the price we (taxpayers) pay for these drugs? i call it the “for god’s sake preserve the right of the drug companies to charge americans the maximum possible for drugs!!!” plan. recall that, before bush put this drug benefit in, there was a growing movement of american seniors to get those prescription drugs that were still under patent for the 1/2 of the price that they are available at in canada. OMG we can’t have that!!!
does somebody have the dollar figure for how much the drug benefit under these terms has blown out the already stressed medicare budget?
so, what do you say? why don’t we start there with medicare reform?
| 242 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:02:35pm |
re: #210 wrenchwench
It’s not genetic. We may have evolved in groups, but genes do not determine behavior as clearly as your comment implies.
I spoke of tendencies, and like other animals we have tendencies towards socialization that I dare say don’t come from the gods.
Tribalism as such is alive and well in a great many parts of the world, and a cause of many problems. I don’t think we are immune.
| 244 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:03:32pm |
re: #238 Decatur Deb
I would like to see Medicare and Medicaid eliminated. Single Payer.
Works for me.
| 245 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:03:32pm |
re: #238 Decatur Deb
I would like to see Medicare and Medicaid eliminated. Single Payer.
But - you do realise as a consequence - there would be “raioning”.
By which the number of MRI’s and CAT scans would be reduced to those which were strictly medically required and could be provided anywhere not just at approved insurer locations.
| 246 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:04:00pm |
re: #230 Stanley Sea
How do we at 62 purchase a plan on the open market that will cover our pre-existings and future illnesses? What insurance companies have signed on to this idea??
Medicare is a safety net, and to change it will remove the safety net.
That’s a decent objection but its one that can be worked through. What Ryan has is a plan. The plan needs to be studied to see if such plans would be economical to create. Change does not have to mean removing the net, it just means that we are reducing its cost.
| 247 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:04:35pm |
re: #246 Dark_Falcon
Again:
For example, by 2030, typical 65-year-olds would be required to pay 68 percent of the cost of their coverage, which includes premiums, deductibles and other out-of-pocket costs, according to the CBO. They’d pay 25 percent under current law, the CBO said.
| 248 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:04:35pm |
re: #239 b_sharp
A large gap between the rich and the poor never ends well.
and it never ends…it’s almost the natural course of events, unless govt contributes meaningfully otherwise eh?…so look around and what do you see? a govt that creates and promotes disparity?
| 249 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:04:45pm |
re: #235 Dark_Falcon
He proposed a system of grants that would lead to cost savings. It’s designed to be easier to administer and use and thus allow for the system to be run by a smaller workforce and consume less doctor and patient time.
As for jobs training, what Congressman Ryan proposed was consolidation. His view is that there are too many programs and that they are duplicating each other’s functions. He wants reform to reduce overhead and administrative staff, while still providing the job training. The reason this gets objections is that some in politics use those administrative positions as political plums.
Let’s stick to his privatizing of Medicare for now. Yes, it would decrease direct government spending, but it would basically push seniors into bankruptcy trying to pay for insurance due to subsidies set to increase at a rate well below the rate of medical inflation. It would also increase costs, since the current Medicare system is fantastically efficient compared to private plans, and because without the government there to try and hold down costs, they’d all rise just as rapidly as the rest of private insurance costs are currently.
| 250 |
Renaissance_Man Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:06:01pm |
re: #235 Dark_Falcon
He proposed a system of grants that would lead to cost savings. It’s designed to be easier to administer and use and thus allow for the system to be run by a smaller workforce and consume less doctor and patient time.
Explain how this works, if you will.
I see nothing in the plan that reduces administrative cost or consumes less doctor or patient time.
| 251 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:06:29pm |
| 252 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:07:03pm |
re: #249 Simply Sarah
Let’s stick to his privatizing of Medicare for now. Yes, it would decrease direct government spending, but it would basically push seniors into bankruptcy trying to pay for insurance due to subsidies set to increase at a rate well below the rate of medical inflation. It would also increase costs, since the current Medicare system is fantastically efficient compared to private plans, and because without the government there to try and hold down costs, they’d all rise just as rapidly as the rest of private insurance costs are currently.
Somebody always ends up paying - and if it isn’t shared risk through a pool it is everybody paying more individually.
It doesn’t make any sense to do it that way. At all.
| 253 |
Varek Raith Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:07:42pm |
His plan is complete fantasy.
It assumes a 2.8% unemployment rate,
150billion + a year growth…
Yeah, right.
| 254 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:07:45pm |
re: #220 b_sharp
Who are the bait people?
You are a bait person, as are we all!
//sardines got nothing on us!
| 255 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:07:50pm |
re: #246 Dark_Falcon
That’s a decent objection but its one that can be worked through. What Ryan has is a plan. The plan needs to be studied to see if such plans would be economical to create. Change does not have to mean removing the net, it just means that we are reducing its cost.
Any old knucklehead can propose a plan. Personally, I’m going to continue waiting for a plan based in reality that doesn’t involve tossing the old and the poor of the country (You know, the ones generally the most in need of help with health care) under the bus because we can’t stand to raise taxes a little bit or to cut military spending.
| 256 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:08:00pm |
re: #214 Dark_Falcon
Baloney. Paul Ryan put together ideas to reform Medicare, so that it is able to keep working without drastic cuts to care or rationing. His block grant idea isn’t any species of ‘war’, its a serious reform idea. But the left will call it ‘war on the poor’, because their strategy is to scare seniors into think republicans are trying to kill them.
It’s not a “reform”. It’s a dismantlement. I would have a lot more respect for those who support Ryan’s proposals if you would call it what it is. Ryan’s plan is an end to Medicare as it has been known and loved since it was created. The conservative movement has always been against the social safety net that liberals created starting with the New Deal. You have always wanted destroy it so just admit and then maybe we can have a real argument about it. Besides any plan based on 2.9% unemployment is about as serious as a unicorn sighting. Both are the result of magical thinking. Oh, and as far as scaring seniors goes, who was talking about death panels in 2009? Fair trade is not robbery.
| 257 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:09:01pm |
| 258 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:09:01pm |
re: #245 wozzablog
But - you do realise as a consequence - there would be “raioning”.
By which the number of MRI’s and CAT scans would be reduced to those which were strictly medically required and could be provided anywhere not just at approved insurer locations.
Rationing is not a bugaboo. I’ve had a decade or so of rationed (socialized) medicine in the Italian, Israeli, and US DoD systems. (Even the 121 Evac of MASH fame.)
| 259 |
avanti Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:09:20pm |
re: #215 Stanley Sea
Yeah, the paid into it thing I totally get.
True, but our tax code is based on taxing the rich at a higher level than the poor, so we are already taking from the rich to help the poor. In spite of that, the gap between the have and have not’s is growing.
My wife and I like watching the secret millionaire, and she gets all weepy when a multi-millionair writes a check to help someone, but I see it as chump change for them. Sure it’s great that they help by writing a nice check, but it’s like us giving $25 to a charity. i.e. the one guy had two matching hot air balloons and a chooper in his backyard. I’m glad he’s willing to see how much he can help without a lot of pain, good Karma payback for his success IMHO.
Lots of respect too for the billionaires that have agreed to give much of their wealth away too. If you are a multi-billionaire, nice to just leave a few million to the kids, but give the rest to foundation.
| 260 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:09:51pm |
| 261 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:10:15pm |
| 262 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:10:19pm |
re: #260 albusteve
Got change for a quarter?
| 263 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:10:58pm |
| 264 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:10:58pm |
re: #258 Decatur Deb
Rationing is not a bugaboo. I’ve had a decade or so of rationed (socialized) medicine in the Italian, Israeli, and US DoD systems. (Even the 121 Evac of MASH fame.)
‘Rationing’ is often a good thing. Wasteful tests cost the patient time and, in some cases, are harmful or risky. Treatments that don’t work can have dangerous side effects and delay the use of treatments that are actually effective.
| 265 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:11:45pm |
re: #258 Decatur Deb
Rationing is not a bugaboo. I’ve had a decade or so of rationed (socialized) medicine in the Italian, Israeli, and US DoD systems. (Even the 121 Evac of MASH fame.)
The UK hasn’t killed me yet.
Present to the doctors with mild head pains without causal injury - given painkillers — pain goes away.
Or
Present with same symptoms proceed directly to MRI where nothing is found - sent home with painkillers.
| 266 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:11:53pm |
| 267 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:12:44pm |
re: #264 Simply Sarah
‘Rationing’ is often a good thing. Wasteful tests cost the patient time and, in some cases, are harmful or risky. Treatments that don’t work can have dangerous side effects and delay the use of treatments that are actually effective.
Over prescribing kills - flat out.
| 268 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:12:51pm |
re: #265 wozzablog
The UK hasn’t killed me yet.
Present to the doctors with mild head pains without causal injury - given painkillers — pain goes away.
Or
Present with same symptoms proceed directly to MRI where nothing is found - sent home with painkillers.
That’s only because it’s too busy trying to kill Stephen Hawking.
/
| 269 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:13:25pm |
re: #266 Dark_Falcon
Not sure. Though such figures should be fact-checked.
Fact check this figure.
Image: female-figure-reference.jpg
| 270 |
engineer cat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:13:34pm |
re: #238 Decatur Deb
Single Payer.
single payer works on an eminently sound market principle: economy of scale
the real problem with medicare, of course, is that the price of medical care has gone through the roof. in canada, medical care is bought essentially in bulk by the government. in industry, if you are a giant bulk purchaser, you can negotiate the price down - or, to look at it another way, canada buys medical care and drugs at CostCo!
single payer should be backed enthusiastically by any republican who is honest about their wish that the government be run like a business
| 271 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:13:45pm |
re: #268 Simply Sarah
That’s only because it’s too busy trying to kill Stephen Hawking.
/
No no no no no - Stephen Hawking is American, he’d be dead by now if he were British.
| 272 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:14:13pm |
| 273 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:14:25pm |
re: #264 Simply Sarah
‘Rationing’ is often a good thing. Wasteful tests cost the patient time and, in some cases, are harmful or risky. Treatments that don’t work can have dangerous side effects and delay the use of treatments that are actually effective.
It also creates a strong incentive for preventive medicine, instead of our current system, which incentivizes mostly the repair work.
| 274 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:14:34pm |
re: #266 Dark_Falcon
Can you answer any of the questions put to you in this thread?
As in:
A) Where will seniors be able to purchase a health plan on the open market?
B) Why won’t health care costs for seniors rise once the cost controls for medicare are removed?
| 276 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:15:34pm |
re: #266 Dark_Falcon
Not sure. Though such figures should be fact-checked.
funny how they come out with these devastating conclusions so soon after the budget was made public….how long has the CBO had the stuff?…must be a monster to crunch all those numbers so fast
| 277 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:15:37pm |
re: #270 engineer dog
single payer works on an eminently sound market principle: economy of scale
the real problem with medicare, of course, is that the price of medical care has gone through the roof. in canada, medical care is bought essentially in bulk by the government. in industry, if you are a giant bulk purchaser, you can negotiate the price down - or, to look at it another way, canada buys medical care and drugs at CostCo!
single payer should be backed enthusiastically by any republican who is honest about their wish that the government be run like a business
I also love it when people price a single payer system based on expanding the cost of Medicare to the whole population as if the average American would cost the same amount as the average Medicare recipient.
| 278 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:16:48pm |
re: #269 b_sharp
Fact check this figure.
Image: female-figure-reference.jpg
Fact: Her little streetmap is printed in a place where she can’t see it.
| 279 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:17:20pm |
re: #263 b_sharp
Damn unicorns.
LOL! My dad took me and my sister to the circus when we were really little to see a “unicorn”. It was a damn goat with a horn glued to his head. They couldn’t even find a pretty white horse to try and fool us with. I was mad as hell. I fought my deep phobia of clowns and all I got was to see some smelly ass goat! And that’s what this Ryan budget is: a smelly ass goat being passed off as a unicorn.
| 280 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:17:50pm |
Uh oh. CBO says things people don’t like so they must be wrong or conspirators.
| 281 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:17:51pm |
re: #276 albusteve
funny how they come out with these devastating conclusions so soon after the budget was made public…how long has the CBO had the stuff?…must be a monster to crunch all those numbers so fast
Steve, they have computers that have a great deal of information in them and software that analyses the data. Adding more data takes very little added work.
| 282 |
Renaissance_Man Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:17:51pm |
re: #264 Simply Sarah
‘Rationing’ is often a good thing. Wasteful tests cost the patient time and, in some cases, are harmful or risky. Treatments that don’t work can have dangerous side effects and delay the use of treatments that are actually effective.
The US system is rationed. All health care systems are rationed.
Countries with universal health care ration it based on need. The US system rations it based on wealth. Comparisons clearly demonstrate that rationing based on wealth produces a less efficient, less equitable system, less medical advancement, and a less healthy populace. It does, however, make a small number of people very rich, and also provides superb care to a tiny, wealthy, percentage of the population.
Some people are okay with this, and want to ration further based on wealth. That’s a shame.
| 283 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:17:57pm |
re: #266 Dark_Falcon
Not sure. Though such figures should be fact-checked.
Yes they should be, but they should also be respected.
The CBO is a non partisan group that exists to referee this sort of thing, attacks on them should not be launched lightly….
| 284 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:18:24pm |
re: #277 Simply Sarah
I also love it when people price a single payer system based on expanding the cost of Medicare to the whole population as if the average American would cost the same amount as the average Medicare recipient.
Tens of millions of thrusting 20somethings entering the insurance pool…….. yup. All just about due for those new hips and knee joints.
| 285 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:18:31pm |
re: #276 albusteve
funny how they come out with these devastating conclusions so soon after the budget was made public…how long has the CBO had the stuff?…must be a monster to crunch all those numbers so fast
Not really that surprising. It’s actually common for the CBO to be working with the Chair of the House Budgetary Committee when a budget is being drafted. So they were able to react because they already knew the basics of the proposal. They may have errors, but nothing nefarious happened.
| 286 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:19:01pm |
re: #279 moderatelyradicalliberal
LOL! My dad took me and my sister to the circus when we were really little to see a “unicorn”. It was a damn goat with a horn glued to his head. They couldn’t even find a pretty white horse to try and fool us with. I was mad as hell. I fought my deep phobia of clowns and all I got was to see some smelly ass goat! And that’s what this Ryan budget is: a smelly ass goat being passed off as a unicorn.
Speaking of clowns, and I don’t mean Beck, have you seen Killer Klowns from Outer Space?
| 287 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:19:04pm |
re: #276 albusteve
funny how they come out with these devastating conclusions so soon after the budget was made public…how long has the CBO had the stuff?…must be a monster to crunch all those numbers so fast
Do you not understand what the CBO is? The CBO gets the figures from Ryan and runs this analysis. So, he provided them with the numbers.
They are a bipartisan, independent institution who reports on the realities of costs given the inputs. If there is a problem with the numbers— as many people claimed there were for the CBO’s output on the HCR plan— it is due to the numbers put into it.
So, take it up with Ryan. Or with the incredibly economically blinkered Heritage Institute, who’s numbers he’s using.
| 288 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:20:00pm |
re: #273 Decatur Deb
It also creates a strong incentive for preventive medicine, instead of our current system, which incentivizes mostly the repair work.
In the UK general practitioners and family doctors are paid based on their ability to provide preventative medical care and keep their patients from needing to go to specialists. What a radical concept.
| 289 |
Varek Raith Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:20:06pm |
When’s the last time, if ever, the US had a 2.8% unemployment rate???
| 290 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:20:12pm |
re: #282 Renaissance_Man
The US system is rationed. All health care systems are rationed.
Countries with universal health care ration it based on need. The US system rations it based on wealth. Comparisons clearly demonstrate that rationing based on wealth produces a less efficient, less equitable system, less medical advancement, and a less healthy populace. It does, however, make a small number of people very rich, and also provides superb care to a tiny, wealthy, percentage of the population.
Some people are okay with this, and want to ration further based on wealth. That’s a shame.
There are people on this board who are privately insured but only given 10 family doctor visits a year per there insurance - for the whole family, after that costs mount considerably - which is also rationing.
| 291 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:20:47pm |
re: #274 Obdicut
Can you answer any of the questions put to you in this thread?
As in:
A) Where will seniors be able to purchase a health plan on the open market?
B) Why won’t health care costs for seniors rise once the cost controls for medicare are removed?
A. Those can be designed. If Obama can get the insurance industry to come around on his ideas, Republicans closer to the industry ought to be able to work with them to design such plans. Such plans would require close federal oversight, so some regulatory apparatus would still be needed.
| 292 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:20:53pm |
re: #287 Obdicut
Do you not understand what the CBO is? The CBO gets the figures from Ryan and runs this analysis. So, he provided them with the numbers.
They are a bipartisan, independent institution who reports on the realities of costs given the inputs. If there is a problem with the numbers— as many people claimed there were for the CBO’s output on the HCR plan— it is due to the numbers put into it.
So, take it up with Ryan. Or with the incredibly economically blinkered Heritage Institute, who’s numbers he’s using.
Which just shows how bad Ryan’s numbers were. He put one type of garbage in and *still* got garbage out.
| 293 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:21:04pm |
re: #274 Obdicut
Can you answer any of the questions put to you in this thread?
As in:
A) Where will seniors be able to purchase a health plan on the open market?
B) Why won’t health care costs for seniors rise once the cost controls for medicare are removed?
I’m 61, got a few troubles. You know, age, and all that comes with it.
What insurance company, on the open market, is going to be able to cover me profitably? NONE. NADA.
This is where, like it or not, the whole Medicare system was founded on. Old people will need help to cover their medical costs.
We are (still?) the richest nation. Fuck it, give me a break.
| 294 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:21:08pm |
re: #289 Varek Raith
When’s the last time, if ever, the US had a 2.8% unemployment rate???
It might have gone down that low during World War two… at least if you count being employed by the government (say as a solider) as a real job….
| 296 |
Renaissance_Man Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:21:20pm |
re: #289 Varek Raith
When’s the last time, if ever, the US had a 2.8% unemployment rate???
Of course it’s never happened. That’s because the US has always been polluted by too many liberals. If we would only stop burdening the producers and weighing them down with parasites, we would be so blessed.
| 297 |
avanti Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:21:24pm |
re: #283 jamesfirecat
Yes they should be, but they should also be respected.
The CBO is a non partisan group that exists to referee this sort of thing, attacks on them should not be launched lightly…
The only criticism I can make of the CBO is they have to rely on figures submitted to them. i.e., either side can feed them optimistmistic growth figures for example and they just crunch the numbers.
| 298 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:21:24pm |
re: #289 Varek Raith
When’s the last time, if ever, the US had a 2.8% unemployment rate???
I believe people were busy liking Ike at the time.
| 299 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:22:17pm |
re: #293 Stanley Sea
Isn’t it FUN to buy private insurance on the open market?
//there aren’t enough sarc tags for this!
| 300 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:22:19pm |
re: #291 Dark_Falcon
A. Those can be designed.
How? This is not an answer. How can they be profitable, when serving an inherently unhealthy population with significant medical costs?
| 301 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:22:34pm |
re: #287 Obdicut
Do you not understand what the CBO is? The CBO gets the figures from Ryan and runs this analysis. So, he provided them with the numbers.
They are a bipartisan, independent institution who reports on the realities of costs given the inputs. If there is a problem with the numbers— as many people claimed there were for the CBO’s output on the HCR plan— it is due to the numbers put into it.
So, take it up with Ryan. Or with the incredibly economically blinkered Heritage Institute, who’s numbers he’s using.
Oh come on. The CBO is a commie fascist plot cooked up by this commie fascist administration! Admit it, I say!
| 302 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:23:00pm |
re: #301 marjoriemoon
LOL!
You fascist!
| 303 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:23:35pm |
re: #286 b_sharp
Speaking of clowns, and I don’t mean Beck, have you seen Killer Klowns from Outer Space?
Yes, I was forced to watch it by my evil older cousins who knew I was terrified of clowns. It all started with the clown doll dragging Robby Freeling under the bed and trying to kill him in Poltergeist. Me and clowns are not cool to this day. Seriously, fuck clowns.
| 305 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:23:52pm |
re: #289 Varek Raith
When’s the last time, if ever, the US had a 2.8% unemployment rate???
Eisenhower. I think.
A long time ago, and of course our population was a fraction of today. It’s a fucking joke, and Heritage actually pulled the chart from their website, admitting it in their nice honest way.
| 306 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:24:15pm |
re: #300 Obdicut
How? This is not an answer. How can they be profitable, when serving an inherently unhealthy population with significant medical costs?
This is the dirty secret of private health insurance (Which really shouldn’t be secret at all). It only really works when you can largely pool the high risk with large numbers of low risk people.
| 307 |
Varek Raith Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:24:18pm |
Don’t blame the CBO for Ryan’s numbers not looking good.
Garbage in, garbage out.
| 308 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:24:39pm |
re: #303 moderatelyradicalliberal
Yes, I was forced to watch it by my evil older cousins who knew I was terrified of clowns. It all started with the clown doll dragging Robby Freeling under the bed and trying to kill him in Poltergeist. Me and clowns are not cool to this day. Seriously, fuck clowns.
Um, no thanks.
Clowns are scary!
| 309 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:25:00pm |
re: #291 Dark_Falcon
A. Those can be designed. If Obama can get the insurance industry to come around on his ideas, Republicans closer to the industry ought to be able to work with them to design such plans. Such plans would require close federal oversight, so some regulatory apparatus would still be needed.
Obama didn’t get them to come around on his ideas. They fought him tooth and nail with tons of money in advertising and lobbying. How is it an open market if politicians design and regulate the plans?
Why not just go single payer? What is the use in having for-profit insurance? The whole idea of capitalism and for-profit business is to innovate. How do you innovate insurance?
| 310 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:25:27pm |
re: #298 Simply Sarah
I believe people were busy liking Ike at the time.
Gee, weren’t taxes on the rich much higher than too? Hmmm……………
| 311 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:25:37pm |
For those wondering how the CBO does it’s work you might like to spend time reading the Director’s blog:
[Link: cboblog.cbo.gov…]
| 312 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:25:40pm |
re: #306 Simply Sarah
This is the dirty secret of private health insurance (Which really shouldn’t be secret at all). It only really works when you can largely pool the high risk with large numbers of low risk people.
Thus the wisdom of pooling all the high-risk people with all the low-risks.
| 313 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:26:14pm |
re: #306 Simply Sarah
This is the dirty secret of private health insurance (Which really shouldn’t be secret at all). It only really works when you can largely pool the high risk with large numbers of low risk people.
I will say, however, that I can’t entirely blame the insurance companies here. They’re trying to run a profitable business and this is the *only* way they can do it. The real problem is that we’re stuck with this godawful system to start with.
| 314 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:26:20pm |
re: #300 Obdicut
How? This is not an answer. How can they be profitable, when serving an inherently unhealthy population with significant medical costs?
So far Dark has said “They’ll fix the problems after it’s studied” and “They’ll design a plan to make it work”.
That’s a lot of confidence in government for a conservative.
| 315 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:26:25pm |
| 316 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:26:32pm |
re: #266 Dark_Falcon
Not sure. Though such figures should be fact-checked.
Don’t worry, I’m sure McMegan over at The Atlantic is working on it right now…..
| 317 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:27:19pm |
re: #289 Varek Raith
When’s the last time, if ever, the US had a 2.8% unemployment rate???
1953
[Link: www.miseryindex.us…]
| 318 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:28:00pm |
re: #316 webevintage
Don’t worry, I’m sure McMegan over at The Atlantic is working on it right now…
MacGyver couldn’t make this work…….
| 319 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:28:04pm |
re: #303 moderatelyradicalliberal
Yes, I was forced to watch it by my evil older cousins who knew I was terrified of clowns. It all started with the clown doll dragging Robby Freeling under the bed and trying to kill him in Poltergeist. Me and clowns are not cool to this day. Seriously, fuck clowns.
There are two ways watching that movie can go, it can scare you, or the over the top script and acting can put you on the floor laughing your ass off. It’s too bad it didn’t make you laugh.
Lots of people are afraid of clowns. They are creepy.
| 320 |
Varek Raith Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:28:50pm |
| 321 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:29:28pm |
Oh, Jesus, Our Illustrious Speaker was crying again.
[Link: www.balloon-juice.com…]
John Boehner was driven to tears again today. This time it happened at a closed-door meeting of House Republicans.
According to sources inside the meeting, Boehner it happened while Boehner was speaking to the group about the latest on his negotiations with Democrats over government funding. Boehner talked about his meeting yesterday with President Obama and then, in a rousing conclusion, he thanked the House Republicans for standing by him and supporting him through these tense negotiations.
The Republican conference responded with a standing ovation for their speaker.
As you could imagine, that prompted the Speaker to cry.
“Yes,” said one person at the meeting, “He cried, but only briefly.”
Freaking WATB. Nancy never cried.
| 322 |
goddamnedfrank Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:29:33pm |
re: #300 Obdicut
How? This is not an answer. How can they be profitable, when serving an inherently unhealthy population with significant medical costs?
Oooh, oooh, (raises hand) I know the answer! Pick me!
| 323 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:29:46pm |
G’night everyone.
Play nice while I’m gone - i never like missing the fun ;-)
| 325 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:30:24pm |
re: #309 recusancy
Obama didn’t get them to come around on his ideas. They fought him tooth and nail with tons of money in advertising and lobbying. How is it an open market if politicians design and regulate the plans?
Why not just go single payer? What is the use in having for-profit insurance? The whole idea of capitalism and for-profit business is to innovate. How do you innovate insurance?
it’s probably the most complex social problem the US has ever faced…how do you deliver quality medical care to over 300m people and still allow the principles to rake in billions?….something has to give
| 326 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:31:17pm |
re: #321 moderatelyradicalliberal
Oh, Jesus, Our Illustrious Speaker was crying again.
[Link: www.balloon-juice.com…]
Freaking WATB. Nancy never cried.
Honestly? I don’t have a problem with the idea of the crying. The only issue I have is that I’m not always convinced it’s legit with him.
| 327 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:31:18pm |
| 328 |
Renaissance_Man Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:32:45pm |
re: #291 Dark_Falcon
A. Those can be designed. If Obama can get the insurance industry to come around on his ideas, Republicans closer to the industry ought to be able to work with them to design such plans. Such plans would require close federal oversight, so some regulatory apparatus would still be needed.
This is some serious magical thinking.
These are facts:
1) Seniors require more health care expenditure, not less, than others.
2) Private health insurance runs on the idea of making a profit.
3) Health care costs continue to go up, not down.
The rising costs of health care are ballooning the cost of Medicare as it is, and Medicare is run more efficiently than private insurance, and does not have to turn a profit. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe for a second that private health insurance, which is less efficient and needs to spend less money to make a profit, can pay for the health care costs of senior citizens (which cost more money than other clients), and do so for less money than the more efficient government plan can do now?
| 329 |
albusteve Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:32:55pm |
re: #326 Simply Sarah
Honestly? I don’t have a problem with the idea of the crying. The only issue I have is that I’m not always convinced it’s legit with him.
there is no crying in baseball!
| 330 |
angel Graham Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:33:37pm |
So what happens to me if this is passed?
I live in Public Housing, have food stamps, receive Disability, Medicaid. Why, because I CANNOT work. Not WILL NOT work, but cannot. If this passes, my disability will be gone, which means no place to live. No food stamps=No eating. No Medicaid=No counseling, meds needed to live, no meds to keep me living.
That means, I end up in a homeless shelter, of which there is only one to my knowledge in the city where I live. Which only allows living there for 2 weeks in any 12 month period. So, I could sleep at the Bus Terminal, except I would arrested for loitering. I could sleep at City Hall, or a Senator or Congressman’s office, but again. Loitering arrest. So where do I go if this passes.
I want to work. I would love to work. I cannot. I would love to make my own way in life and not be beholden to the Federal Government. I cannot.
These GOP are claiming to be Christians. If so, then what do they plan to say to God when they face the Judgement Seat? When HE asks them; “When they were hungry, did you feed them? Thirsty, Give them drink? Naked? Clothe Them?” No, they will have to say that they voted to take all these things away from the poor and needy. The reason for which Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. Not carrying for the poor and needy, being arrogant and proud, self indulgent, lazy, haughty. It was not homosexuality. Why Sodom & Gomorrah were really Destroyed.
| 331 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:34:01pm |
re: #309 recusancy
How do you innovate insurance?
By finding new and inventive ways to rip off the customer.
| 332 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:34:27pm |
re: #326 Simply Sarah
Honestly? I don’t have a problem with the idea of the crying. The only issue I have is that I’m not always convinced it’s legit with him.
I’m sure it’s not, but I have a huge problem with the crying. What the hell? Can you imagine if a woman cried, what they’d say?
| 333 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:35:42pm |
re: #326 Simply Sarah
Honestly? I don’t have a problem with the idea of the crying. The only issue I have is that I’m not always convinced it’s legit with him.
I’m sorry that crying has to stop. No wonder he can’t control his caucus.
| 334 |
Romantic Heretic Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:36:31pm |
re: #330 sadangel
I love my wife very much. She’s so passionate and caring.
Not to worry, sweetie. You’ll be here in Canada with me soon. We’re not nearly as nasty to the poor and sick. *kiss* *HUGS*
| 335 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:36:56pm |
re: #333 moderatelyradicalliberal
I’m sorry that crying has to stop. No wonder he can’t control his caucus.
Stuck in “Compassionate Conservative” mode.
| 336 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:37:08pm |
re: #332 marjoriemoon
I’m sure it’s not, but I have a huge problem with the crying. What the hell? Can you imagine if a woman cried, what they’d say?
Oh, she’d be ravaged. To me, though, the problem is that people don’t want to admit that crying is natural and normal, rather than some sign of weakness. I tear up over all sorts of silly things, so I tend to be pretty non-judgemental of it in others.
| 337 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:37:49pm |
re: #335 Decatur Deb
Stuck in “Compassionate Conservative” mode.
The only thing he has compassion for is himself. That’s all he cries about.
| 338 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:38:46pm |
re: #337 recusancy
The only thing he has compassion for is himself. That’s all he cries about.
Got Proof?
| 339 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:39:43pm |
re: #338 Dark_Falcon
Got Proof?
Every time he’s cried he was talking about how hard he has worked. The only time he mentioned someone else was to say he wants them to be like him.
| 340 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:43:52pm |
re: #338 Dark_Falcon
Do you have an explanation of how the government paying for-profit plans for seniors, the group with the highest health care costs, is going to save us money?
Either we’re going to be paying for what you’d pay for the equivalent of medicare on the open market— which is more expensive. Or we’ll be paying the same amount of money, and seniors will get less care.
Why is that a good scenario, to you?
| 341 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:44:31pm |
re: #336 Simply Sarah
Oh, she’d be ravaged. To me, though, the problem is that people don’t want to admit that crying is natural and normal, rather than some sign of weakness. I tear up over all sorts of silly things, so I tend to be pretty non-judgemental of it in others.
Well yea, but you’re not the speaker of the house.
I don’t want to see this from folks who are supposed to have it together, not over this BS. Someone dies maybe.
| 342 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:45:28pm |
re: #341 marjoriemoon
Well yea, but you’re not the speaker of the house.
I don’t want to see this from folks who are supposed to have it together, not over this BS. Someone dies maybe.
I dunno. I kinda wish it didn’t seem that women in politics were expected to act just like men with breasts and a u*****.
| 343 |
angel Graham Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:45:40pm |
I think I shall be putting my money where my mouth is tomorrow. I am going to find out who my Congressman/Senators are, and addresses/emails/phone to let them know just what happens to me if this passes. I shall send it also to the White House. I will post what I say on my own blog at Hubpages. Post it where I can think of. Maybe here also. Who knows.
I’m not the only one out here that is going to face this same situation. There are others who will be worse off than me, because they have children also to have to take care of. Or elderly parents…or someone else. I have only myself, so I know I am actually luckier than many.
I am willing to put a face to this. One that the Congress/Senate/White House can see. Not some abstract thought.
| 344 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:46:07pm |
re: #342 Simply Sarah
I dunno. I kinda wish it didn’t seem that women in politics were expected to act just like men with breasts and a u***.
Welcome to the big time, baby :)
| 345 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:46:59pm |
re: #342 Simply Sarah
I dunno. I kinda wish it didn’t seem that women in politics were expected to act just like men with breasts and a u***.
Btw, that applies to men AND women. I wouldn’t feel any better seeing Pelosi cry.
| 346 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:47:30pm |
re: #342 Simply Sarah
Uterus, come on, you can say it, or spell it.
It’s no worse than “dick”!
| 347 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:48:07pm |
re: #346 Floral Giraffe
Uterus, come on, you can say it, or spell it.
It’s no worse than “dick”!
Oh no! My poor virgin eyes!
| 348 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:48:44pm |
re: #343 sadangel
I think I shall be putting my money where my mouth is tomorrow. I am going to find out who my Congressman/Senators are, and addresses/emails/phone to let them know just what happens to me if this passes. I shall send it also to the White House. I will post what I say on my own blog at Hubpages. Post it where I can think of. Maybe here also. Who knows.
I’m not the only one out here that is going to face this same situation. There are others who will be worse off than me, because they have children also to have to take care of. Or elderly parents…or someone else. I have only myself, so I know I am actually luckier than many.
I am willing to put a face to this. One that the Congress/Senate/White House can see. Not some abstract thought.
If you get heard above the background noise, prepare for some freakin’ pathological reactions.
| 349 |
b_sharp Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:49:14pm |
re: #343 sadangel
I think I shall be putting my money where my mouth is tomorrow. I am going to find out who my Congressman/Senators are, and addresses/emails/phone to let them know just what happens to me if this passes. I shall send it also to the White House. I will post what I say on my own blog at Hubpages. Post it where I can think of. Maybe here also. Who knows.
I’m not the only one out here that is going to face this same situation. There are others who will be worse off than me, because they have children also to have to take care of. Or elderly parents…or someone else. I have only myself, so I know I am actually luckier than many.
I am willing to put a face to this. One that the Congress/Senate/White House can see. Not some abstract thought.
Put a page up here.
| 350 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:49:46pm |
re: #331 jamesfirecat
By finding new and inventive ways to rip off the customer.
I’m doing $385 a month for private health insurance. It’s basically catastrophic insurance. Saves me, if I get thrown under a bus!
| 351 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:49:54pm |
re: #345 marjoriemoon
Btw, that applies to men AND women. I wouldn’t feel any better seeing Pelosi cry.
Well, I guess I don’t want to see a waterworks every week, but I don’t have a problem with some people tearing up a little when talking about something important to them.
| 352 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:50:21pm |
re: #346 Floral Giraffe
Uterus, come on, you can say it, or spell it.
It’s no worse than “dick”!
But it’s new and unsettling—we have a long tradition of Dicks in politics.
| 353 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:52:36pm |
re: #352 Decatur Deb
Think “the vagina monologues”!
New age, new vernacular!
(Same old parts…)
| 354 |
Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:54:54pm |
re: #352 Decatur Deb
But it’s new and unsettling—we have a long tradition of Dicks in politics.
Oh, that’s a good point. The Florida House should ban anyone named Richard from being a member.
| 355 |
Renaissance_Man Wed, Apr 6, 2011 7:03:59pm |
re: #340 Obdicut
Do you have an explanation of how the government paying for-profit plans for seniors, the group with the highest health care costs, is going to save us money?
Either we’re going to be paying for what you’d pay for the equivalent of medicare on the open market— which is more expensive. Or we’ll be paying the same amount of money, and seniors will get less care.
Why is that a good scenario, to you?
Going to need to wait a few days till the appropriate talking points are disseminated and a short, simple, flimsy justification with a lot of right-sounding words in it is put out before you get an answer.
| 356 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 6, 2011 7:11:14pm |
RepPaulRyan Paul Ryan
by daveweigel
House Budget Committee just voted to approve FY12 budget, taking first step on the path to prosperity - [Link: bit.ly…]
Prosperity for ME, not for YOU.
wha
| 357 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Apr 6, 2011 7:26:05pm |
re: #134 Simply Sarah
What we need right now is a god damn socialist movement. Like, real socialists. Not because I think all the ideas will be the best, but because I’m starting to think that the only way people will ever realize that the choices they’re being offered right now are between a conservative viewpoint and a wacky ultra-right viewpoint is for there to be a legitimate force coming from the *actual* left.
This is late but still, there is the Democratic Socialists of America. We’re the late Mike Harrington’s old group and heirs of a long tradition.
www.dsausa.org
| 358 |
angel Graham Wed, Apr 6, 2011 7:58:42pm |
re: #348 Decatur Deb
I know. I have one good Senator. At least I think on this issue. Senator Mary Landrieu. I hate the thought of sending anything to David Vitter or Rodney Alexander. They are both smarmy, pieces of…
Anyway…I’m expecting just the same ole, Thank you for writing. I’ll consider it. I vote for my constituents. (BULL* Those last two haven’t voted for their constituents. They’ve voted for themselves)
| 359 |
angel Graham Wed, Apr 6, 2011 7:59:43pm |
re: #349 b_sharp
Put a page up here.
I’ll give it serious consideration. I’ll let Charles give me a Yes or No if I should if he would, then I’ll know which way to go.
| 360 |
RogueOne Thu, Apr 7, 2011 4:39:09am |
re: #334 Romantic Heretic
I love my wife very much. She’s so passionate and caring.
Not to worry, sweetie. You’ll be here in Canada with me soon. We’re not nearly as nasty to the poor and sick. *kiss* *HUGS*
Exactly how long have you lived in Canada? Their budget cutting (20% of their budget in the late ‘90’s) is the role model for the UK and the US:
[Link: www.bbc.co.uk…]
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk…]
At the height of the Canadian debt crisis in 1994, the country had a budget deficit of around 9 per cent of GDP.The following year, Jean Chrétien, the Liberal prime minister, unveiled what became known as the “bloodbath budget”, in which departmental spending was reduced by an average of 20 per cent.
By 1997 the deficit had been eradicated. However, health and education budgets were slashed and thousands in the public sector lost their jobs.
| 361 |
Baier Thu, Apr 7, 2011 7:10:21am |
re: #330 sadangel
Are you writing this post from a public computer, like at the library or something?
| 362 |
unwashed masses Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:38:38pm |
re: #330 sadangel
Hate to be negative (God knows you don’t need it) but you can blog but you can’t work?
| 363 |
CuriousLurker Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:49:32pm |
re: #362 unwashed masses
re: #330 sadangel
Hate to be negative (God knows you don’t need it) but you can blog but you can’t work?
WTF? That’s pretty damned rude.
| 364 |
CuriousLurker Sun, Apr 10, 2011 12:46:46pm |
For those of you (#361 & #362) questioning sadangel’s internet access in response to her comment about her disability & precarious financial situation:
There are programs that provide free computers to low-income families.
There are also ways to get free dial-up access and low-cost broadband internet access (along with a reduced price netbook).
There’s also free cell phone service available to those who qualify.
I’m sure if I spent another 10 minutes searching, I could find more.
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