Syrian Forces Fire on Demonstrators Again

Baby Bashar kills to hold on to power
Middle East • Views: 25,168

In Syria today, government forces opened fire on a funeral procession and on a sit-in demonstration: Syrian Forces Open Fire on Demonstrators in Two Cities.

In Dara’a, the security forces fired to disperse a funeral march for some of the 37 people killed in protests across the country a day earlier, a human rights group said.

Several people were wounded, said Ammar Qurabi, who runs Syria’s National Organization for Human Rights. The group’s information was gathered from residents and witnesses in the city. Further details on the shootings were not immediately available. Telephone calls to Dara’a, which has been rocked by violence, were not going through, and the government has placed severe restrictions on media coverage in the country.

Earlier, security forces fired live ammunition to break up a sit-in in the port city of Latakia, in the heartland of Syria’s ruling elite. Residents reported hearing hours of heavy gunfire overnight as the security forces forcefully dispersed hundreds of protesters.

“The shooting went on for almost two hours; it was frightening,” said one resident, speaking on the condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals. There was no immediate word on casualties.

Bashar Assad is following the example of his Iranian pals and his father, meeting popular demonstrations with uncompromising brutality. The international community’s commitment to Middle Eastern change is about to be tested again.

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284 comments
1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:07:12pm

Cowards.

2 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:10:33pm

Baby Assad just following in his old man's footsteps.

3 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:12:17pm

re: #2 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Baby Assad just following in his old man's footsteps.

It worked for Dad.

4 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:15:13pm

Government sponsored terrorism.

5 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:17:51pm

At least a "Domino Theory" has not been mentioned. Wait, is it?

6 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:24:08pm

Maybe not a straight-up domino effect, but it would be hard to claim this hasn't become a regional phenomenon.

7 Buck  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:26:47pm

But he doesn't have oil, and he is backed up by Iran (and has proxies in Gaza, the WB, and Lebanon).

Not so easy. Not as easy a decision as Libya (everyone hates Gadaffi). Even Iraq was an easier decision.

8 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:29:27pm

re: #5 prairiefire

At least a "Domino Theory" has not been mentioned. Wait, is it?

Well, the fall of the Assad regime would actually shake things up. It would be a very good thing for Israel and Lebanon.

9 Westward Ho  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:30:07pm

I work in the oil industry and our company has shut down offices in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Bahrain, Yemen and Syria. Tunisia and Egypt have opened again just a couple of weeks back. It's not looking good at all. Libya was terrible our international staff had to escape using a ferry because armed gangs were robbing people outside the international airport.

10 Political Atheist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:31:08pm

Syria plays Lebanon like a fiddle, and has long been ruthless on any opposition movement. Interesting as hell they took that Israeli air strike almost without complaint. Perhaps that motivated them to help re arm Hezbollah. If the populace can overthrow that government it will be a miracle. Could get far more brutal as in Saddam Hussein style brutal.

11 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:32:50pm

Ugh. The whole region is a powderkeg. Bad stuff. Bad for everyone.

12 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:34:21pm

The fact this kind of shit has been going on throughout human history doesn't make it any easier to accept. I keep hoping humans will reject the habits of our Chimp ancestors and do what is necessary to make Earth livable and comfortable but I keep being disappointed.

Monkeys may have been a bad choice of ancestors.

13 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:35:33pm

re: #12 b_sharp

The fact this kind of shit has been going on throughout human history doesn't make it any easier to accept. I keep hoping humans will reject the habits of our Chimp ancestors and do what is necessary to make Earth livable and comfortable but I keep being disappointed.

Monkeys may have been a bad choice of ancestors.

Tigers would've been my first choice.

14 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:36:06pm

re: #12 b_sharp

The fact this kind of shit has been going on throughout human history doesn't make it any easier to accept. I keep hoping humans will reject the habits of our Chimp ancestors and do what is necessary to make Earth livable and comfortable but I keep being disappointed.

Monkeys may have been a bad choice of ancestors.

Well, I wanted cephalopods, but noooo, I got outvoted because nobody wanted to go without skulls.

15 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:36:35pm

re: #13 JasonA

Tigers would've been my first choice.

Richardson ground squirrels would have been good.

16 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:37:32pm

re: #2 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Baby Assad just following in his old man's footsteps.

Does this mean he's not a reformer?

(sorry if we've beaten that to death already. i've been a stranger.)

17 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:37:53pm

re: #14 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Well, I wanted cephalopods, but nooo, I got outvoted because nobody wanted to go without skulls.

Too many tentacles. Hard to multitask with more than 7 tasks.

18 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:41:20pm

re: #16 Aceofwhat?

Does this mean he's not a reformer?

(sorry if we've beaten that to death already. i've been a stranger.)

No, he's no reformer. He's a accidental dictator, who was never planned as the heir to the throne. He was an eye doctor in London till his elder brother Basil went on a drug-fueled joyride and ended up killing himself. So Bashar Assad got called home and was named heir in his brother's stead.

19 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:44:09pm

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

No, he's no reformer. He's a accidental dictator, who was never planned as the heir to the throne. He was an eye doctor in London till his elder brother Basil went on a drug-fueled joyride and ended up killing himself. So Bashar Assad got called home and was named heir in his brother's stead.

And that was years after his uncle decided to try staging a coup, while the elder Assad was in the hospital due to a heart attack, and ended up forced into exile.

20 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:48:39pm

I make jokes on a serious thread because the violence and the hate is getting me down. I'm almost at a point where I pull the blankets over my head and sleep for a dozen years in the hopes the future will be better.

21 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:49:44pm

I wonder if this is enough to jeopardize their application for a seat on the UN Human Rights Council.

22 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:50:23pm

re: #20 b_sharp

I make jokes on a serious thread because the violence and the hate is getting me down. I'm almost at a point where I pull the blankets over my head and sleep for a dozen years in the hopes the future will be better.

I know exactly what you mean.

And for just that reason, I posted a completely unserious page today.

23 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:51:45pm

re: #20 b_sharp

I make jokes on a serious thread because the violence and the hate is getting me down. I'm almost at a point where I pull the blankets over my head and sleep for a dozen years in the hopes the future will be better.

updinged, because i'm a fan of gallows humor too. some of this stuff is so intense in all of the wrong ways...a little deflection never hurts.

24 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:58:19pm

'unwashed masses' has logged in. Will today be their first comment? The world wants to know.

25 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:59:34pm

re: #24 Aceofwhat?

'unwashed masses' has logged in. Will today be their first comment? The world wants to know.

I have unwashed masses on my body that would scare the shit out of me if they made comments.

26 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:00:35pm

Raw Video: Deadly Day of Protests in Syria

27 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:01:18pm

re: #24 Aceofwhat?

'unwashed masses' has logged in. Will today be their first comment? The world wants to know.

I washed my masses and they still stink.

28 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:02:35pm

re: #27 Killgore Trout

I washed my masses and they still stink.

Then you're posting under the wrong nic.
Need to pull out "Killgore Trout Stinks".

29 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:03:39pm

re: #23 Aceofwhat?

updinged, because i'm a fan of gallows humor too. some of this stuff is so intense in all of the wrong ways...a little deflection never hurts.

It used to be deflection for me. Now I think I really am going crazy...

30 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:04:24pm

re: #29 JasonA

It used to be deflection for me. Now I think I really am going crazy...

Insanity is believing oneself sane in an insane world.

31 KT Smells like Roses and Ranbows  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:04:57pm

re: #28 reine.de.tout

Then you're posting under the wrong nic.
Need to pull out "Killgore Trout Stinks".

Thou shalt not mock mah Fish Hat Avatar!

32 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:05:50pm

re: #25 b_sharp

I have unwashed masses on my body that would scare the shit out of me if they made comments.

they make an ointment for that, i think/

33 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:07:33pm

re: #27 Killgore Trout

I washed my masses and they still stink.

but they just want to dialogue...

34 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:08:46pm

re: #27 Killgore Trout

I washed my masses and they still stink.

EWWW.

35 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:20:37pm

Great music to kick ass by.

You're welcome.

36 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:23:58pm

re: #35 JasonA

Great music to kick ass by.

[Video]You're welcome.

Here's another:

37 JAFO  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:26:33pm

mmmmm...

Make Love Not War.

The world would be better if more people took LSD.

38 KT Smells like Roses and Ranbows  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:29:07pm

brewing

39 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:29:49pm

re: #37 mracb

mmm...

Make Love Not War.

[Video]The world would be better if more people took LSD.

I think G'Daffy has already taken too much.

40 JAFO  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:33:53pm

re: #39 b_sharp

I think G'Daffy has already taken too much.

Judging by his nose, I'd say he is a big coke fiend. I'm thinking like the end of Scarface.

41 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:43:29pm

re: #40 mracb

Judging by his nose, I'd say he is a big coke fiend. I'm thinking like the end of Scarface.

I think that's how he'd like to go out: Spraying death from a AKM (though Tony Montana used an M-16), firing a grenade at his attackers screaming "Say hello to my little friend!". His ego is big enough for that.

42 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:44:21pm

Evening lizards!

How fucking sad. I hope John Kerry doesn't still believe Syria is committed to peace.

43 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:45:02pm

re: #35 JasonA

Great music to kick ass by.

[Video]You're welcome.

that was good.

i'm more of a 'sweeping, building classical theme' guy

44 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:45:24pm

re: #42 NJDhockeyfan

Evening lizards!

How fucking sad. I hope John Kerry doesn't still believe Syria is committed to peace.

Kerry is delusional enough to think that. Hell, he even thought he could get elected president.

45 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:45:49pm

re: #40 mracb

Judging by his nose, I'd say he is a big coke fiend. I'm thinking like the end of Scarface.

He's the Charlie Sheen of the Mideast.

46 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:46:38pm

re: #45 Aceofwhat?

He's the Charlie Sheen of the Mideast.

Yeah, but with Sheen I hear tell it's crystal meth.

47 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:47:28pm

re: #44 Dark_Falcon

Kerry is delusional enough to think that. Hell, he even thought he could get elected president.

You know, he got close enough that I think it's quite ridiculous to think he was "delusional."

48 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:48:19pm

re: #43 Aceofwhat?

that was good.

i'm more of a 'sweeping, building classical theme' guy

[Video]

I still think this is one of the best pieces of video game music ever:

49 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:49:46pm

re: #43 Aceofwhat?

that was good.

i'm more of a 'sweeping, building classical theme' guy

[Video]

Then don't listen to this. It'll kick your teeth out and stomp your face in.

50 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:51:19pm

re: #47 JasonA

You know, he got close enough that I think it's quite ridiculous to think he was "delusional."

You're right. He's delusional for saying things like whether the U.S. would benefit from the downfall of Assad “depends on which Assad you are talking about.” To say nothing of how much the people of Syria would benefit from the downfall of Assad.

51 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:51:48pm

re: #50 Aceofwhat?

And that's how you do it.

52 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:52:11pm

re: #48 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I still think this is one of the best pieces of video game music ever:

[Video]

yup.

53 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:52:24pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout Stinks

brewing

[Video]

Stinks!
LOL!

54 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:53:08pm

re: #51 JasonA

And that's how you do it.

sorry...can't hear you over the Requiem...i'm a fan

55 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:53:09pm

re: #50 Aceofwhat?

You're right. He's delusional for saying things like whether the U.S. would benefit from the downfall of Assad “depends on which Assad you are talking about.” To say nothing of how much the people of Syria would benefit from the downfall of Assad.

"Syria is an essential player in bringing peace and stability to the region."
~ John Kerry

56 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:53:58pm

re: #55 NJDhockeyfan

"Syria is an essential player in bringing peace and stability to the region."
~ John Kerry

What does the rest of the quote say?

57 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:57:23pm

re: #56 b_sharp

What does the rest of the quote say?

"Both the United States and Syria have a very deep interest... in having a very frank exchange on any differences (and) agreements that we have about the possibilities of peace in this region"

58 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:57:31pm

re: #47 JasonA

You know, he got close enough that I think it's quite ridiculous to think he was "delusional."

I love ragging on John Kerry. His loss to George W. Bush was one of the highlights of 2004, which was the best year of my life so far. Most of the years since have sucked in some way.

59 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:58:16pm

re: #58 Dark_Falcon

I love ragging on John Kerry. His loss to George W. Bush was one of the highlights of 2004, which was the best year of my life so far. Most of the years since have sucked in some way.

Bush wins. Your life starts to suck. Got it.

/

60 simoom  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:58:40pm

NYT gives Trump a soapbox:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

His grandmother from Kenya stated, on tape, that he was born in Kenya and she was there to watch the birth.

False.

He has not been able to produce a “birth certificate” but merely a totally unsigned “certificate of live birth”-which is totally different and of very little significance.

False.

Unlike a birth certificate, a certificate of live birth is very easy to obtain.

False.

Equally of importance, there are no records in Hawaii that a Barack Hussein Obama was born there-no bills, no doctors names, no nurses names, no registrations, no payments, etc.

False... oh and real smooth with the 'Hussein'. ///

As far as the two notices placed in newspapers, many things could have happened, but some feel the grandparents put an ad in order to show that he was a citizen of the U.S. with all of the benefits thereto.

False.

The term used by Ms. Collins-“birther”-is very derogatory and is meant in a derogatory way.

OK, that much is true... BIRTHER.

61 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:00:17pm

re: #59 JasonA

Bush wins. Your life starts to suck. Got it.

/

sorry DF, i had to upding that...you did sorta softball that one up into his zone...

62 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:00:19pm

That Trump is actually being taken seriously as a real candidate is scary shit.

63 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:01:43pm

re: #62 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

That Trump is actually being taken seriously as a real candidate is scary shit.

I dunno. The guy is just working with what's already there. That it's there is the scary part.

64 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:01:52pm

re: #62 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

That Trump is actually being taken seriously as a real candidate is scary shit.

Trump will never be the GOP nominee
Trump..Your Fired!

65 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:02:27pm

re: #62 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

That Trump is actually being taken seriously as a real candidate is scary shit.

Fricken hilarious, though. The counterproductively irreverent part of me wants him to hang in the race for a while. The debates...just imagine...

66 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:03:10pm

re: #63 JasonA

I dunno. The guy is just working with what's already there. That it's there is the scary part.

True, Trump's playing to the base, feeding them the red meat they so desire. That birtherism is actually enough to get him towards the top of the polls says a lot for how far the GOP has fallen.

67 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:03:50pm

re: #62 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

That Trump is actually being taken seriously as a real candidate is scary shit.

I don't know a phrase more frightening, than Trump is the candidate!

68 Interesting Times  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:04:33pm

re: #67 Floral Giraffe

I don't know a phrase more frightening, than Trump is the candidate president!

There you go.

69 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:04:42pm

re: #59 JasonA

Bush wins. Your life starts to suck. Got it.

/

No, it was Cingular's merger with AT&T Wireless that started to send my life down the tubes. I was stuck at a mall kiosk that had lost it's sales to the now-Cingular store front in the center of the mall. I lost the commissions I needed and things went downhill from there. In part because I was still one of the two go-to guys to fix customer problems (because I was one the two people who knew the computer system the best), which meant that I had less selling time than my co-workers.

Still, with the budget resolved (provided travel budget have not been cut entirely, which I do not expect) I can finally get back to selling to military attendees and finally make my current job the thing I've wanted since 2005. This year isn't going to be as good as 2004, but I think I'm finally set for a decent year again.

70 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:04:50pm

re: #67 Floral Giraffe

I don't know a phrase more frightening, than Trump is the candidate!

Trump/Palin 2012: Pray The Mayans Were Right!

71 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:04:53pm

re: #68 publicityStunted

There you go.

All too easy.

72 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:05:15pm

Kick ass music, AWOLNATION Burn It Down

73 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:07:08pm

re: #68 publicityStunted

There you go.

Trump hates Floral. All people who like to climb the Stupid Tree do. They don't like that she eats the tree's leaves, and thus they are exposed to the whole world rather than hiding in the foliage.

74 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:07:34pm

re: #57 NJDhockeyfan

"Both the United States and Syria have a very deep interest... in having a very frank exchange on any differences (and) agreements that we have about the possibilities of peace in this region"

That's what I thought. You've taken a statement of fact and presented it as a pro-Syria value judgment on Kerry's part.

75 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:07:57pm

Lemme run this one up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes...


Knights of the Old Republic Soundtrack - The Sith

76 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:09:07pm

re: #75 JasonA

Lemme run this one up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes...

Knights of the Old Republic Soundtrack - The Sith

[Video]

i'm twitching over here.

77 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:09:11pm

re: #74 b_sharp

That's what I thought. You've taken a statement of fact and presented it as a pro-Syria value judgment on Kerry's part.

Well, to be fair there is also Kerry's favoring of communist North Vietnam and his anti-American antic, both during the early 70's. Those tend to cause his words to be read in a certain tainted light.

78 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:09:33pm

re: #75 JasonA

Lemme run this one up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes...

Knights of the Old Republic Soundtrack - The Sith

[Video]

Is Varek here?

79 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:09:54pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

Is Varek here?

In spirit, my feathery friend.

80 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:10:03pm

re: #75 JasonA

Lemme run this one up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes...

Knights of the Old Republic Soundtrack - The Sith

[Video]

oh, Bastila. you bitch.

81 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:10:18pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

Well, to be fair there is also Kerry's favoring of communist North Vietnam and his anti-American antic, both during the early 70's. Those tend to cause his words to be read in a certain tainted light.

What are you talking about?

82 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:11:25pm

re: #81 b_sharp

What are you talking about?

His visit to North Vietnam, his anti-military rant on Capitol Hill, that sort of thing.

83 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:11:37pm

re: #72 prairiefire

Kick ass music, AWOLNATION Burn It Down

[Video]

AWOLNATION explains the real story behind Glenn Beck's departure:

84 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:12:36pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Trump Floral hates Floral.Trump All people who like to climb the Stupid Tree doFinance the NYC speculative real estate market do. They don't like that she eats the tree's leaves, and thus they are exposed to the whole world rather than hiding in the foliage.the brokers really make the money , while the Trump makes the "fame"

85 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:14:21pm

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

His visit to North Vietnam, his anti-military rant on Capitol Hill, that sort of thing.

Because a veteran has a different political view to the 'right' they are anti-american?

You seem to be calling half the younger generation of the 60's anti-american, because they didn't support a war you were losing.

86 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:14:51pm

re: #74 b_sharp

That's what I thought. You've taken a statement of fact and presented it as a pro-Syria value judgment on Kerry's part.

You better tell Hillary. She thinks he believes he's some sort of reformer along with other Congressmen.

“There’s a different leader in Syria now. Many of the members of Congress of both parties who have gone to Syria in recent months have said they believe he’s a reformer.”

--Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, on “Face the Nation,” March 27, 2011

87 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:15:03pm

re: #84 Floral Giraffe

It rubs the lotion on its skin...

88 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:16:19pm

re: #87 JasonA

Eww, but, yes.

89 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:16:49pm

re: #85 ozbloke

Because a veteran has a different political view to the 'right' they are anti-american?

You seem to be calling half the younger generation of the 60's anti-american, because they didn't support a war you were losing.

The ones that spit on the returning soldiers, called them baby killers, and treated them like shit are anti-American as far as I'm concerned.

90 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:18:36pm

OT, but it's Springtime.
Have you considered adopting a rescue animal?
You should think about it!

91 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:18:38pm

re: #89 NJDhockeyfan

The ones that spit on the returning soldiers, called them baby killers, and treated them like shit are anti-American as far as I'm concerned.

I have never been to the states, but I have read LGF for many years.

Did we ever find the evidence that the returning soldiers were spat on?
I may be mistaken, but I think that has been argued here before.

92 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:19:31pm

re: #89 NJDhockeyfan

The ones that spit on the returning soldiers, called them baby killers, and treated them like shit are anti-American as far as I'm concerned.

Would you like to take away their rights too?

93 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:19:48pm

re: #91 ozbloke

I think the more critical question would be: Did Kerry ever do those things?

94 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:19:53pm

re: #91 ozbloke

I have never been to the states, but I have read LGF for many years.

Did we ever find the evidence that the returning soldiers were spat on?
I may be mistaken, but I think that has been argued here before.

It's a fact. Everyone knows it.

95 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:19:55pm

re: #92 ozbloke

Would you like to take away their rights too?

que?

96 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:20:59pm

re: #92 ozbloke

Would you like to take away their rights too?

No but I would tell them to their faces that they are American piles of garbage. I have that right.

97 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:22:17pm

Not that I'm telling you all what to chat about, but if I never heard John Kerry's name mentioned on this board again, it would be too soon.

98 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:23:17pm

re: #97 marjoriemoon

Not that I'm telling you all what to chat about, but if I never heard John Kerry's name mentioned on this board again, it would be too soon.

hey girl!

99 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:23:34pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

Well, to be fair there is also Kerry's favoring of communist North Vietnam and his anti-American antic, both during the early 70's. Those tend to cause his words to be read in a certain tainted light.

In order to be anti-American the Vietnam War would have had to have been a truly American cause. Which it wasn't. It's all relative. And no where is it written that in order to be a "true American" one must be silent. As you recall this a republic with guaranteed freedom of speech.

100 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:23:42pm

re: #97 marjoriemoon

Not that I'm telling you all what to chat about, but if I never heard John Kerry's name mentioned on this board again, it would be too soon.

No. He's too important.

101 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:23:49pm

re: #98 Aceofwhat?

hey girl!

Whaaazzzup? How ya doin?

102 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:23:59pm

re: #97 marjoriemoon

Not that I'm telling you all what to chat about, but if I never heard John Kerry's name mentioned on this board again, it would be too soon.

LOL...I'm with that!

103 sizzleRI  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:24:06pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

I grew up with a Vietnam vet. 68-70. Never heard that was a fact, sorry.

104 Iwouldprefernotto  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:24:06pm

re: #91 ozbloke

I have never been to the states, but I have read LGF for many years.

Did we ever find the evidence that the returning soldiers were spat on?
I may be mistaken, but I think that has been argued here before.

There is no evidence. conservatives love this myth because they think it makes liberals look bad.

105 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:24:24pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

It's a fact. Everyone knows it.

I was a kid during Vietnam..Grew up in Napa Valley..About 20 minutes away from Travis AFB...Yes returning Vets were spit upon and called baby killers...I can't forget those reports on the news in the bay area..

106 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:24:27pm

re: #97 marjoriemoon

Why? Do you not think he is a patriot?

107 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:24:49pm

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

His visit to North Vietnam, his anti-military rant on Capitol Hill, that sort of thing.

When did he visit North Vietnam?

He met with North Vietnam reps, as well as South Vietnam reps in Paris in '71.

108 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:24:56pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

It's a fact. Everyone knows it.

I'm trying snopes, this is where I'm at.
[Link: message.snopes.com...]

Perhaps you may have some links that would help.

109 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:25:17pm

re: #97 marjoriemoon

Not that I'm telling you all what to chat about, but if I never heard John Kerry's name mentioned on this board again, it would be too soon.

Seriously. It's like if people were still upset at Bob Dole. Who gives a shit?

110 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:25:28pm

re: #101 marjoriemoon

Whaaazzzup? How ya doin?

weeks in Ohio, weekends in Florida. could be worse!

111 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:25:42pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

It's a fact. Everyone knows it.

Nope. There are zero documented cases. There are almost no claims from vets that they were spat on, and those that there are aren't highly credible.

Many vets were treated terribly, especially by the left anti-war movement. They were not given the re-entry therapy and work that they needed, but the reception by many on the left increased their PTSD.

The number one predictor for recovery from PTSD is community support.

112 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:25:46pm

re: #103 sizzleRI

I grew up with a Vietnam vet. 68-70. Never heard that was a fact, sorry.

I know a Vietnam vet who told me he was spit on the first day he arrived back in the states. I don't believe he made it up.

113 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:25:49pm

re: #95 Aceofwhat?

que?

Que what?
Elaborate for me.

114 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:26:07pm

re: #106 Floral Giraffe

Why? Do you not think he is a patriot?

Oh I like John Kerry, but for some reason, he's the Most Important Person Evah and I really don't get that.

John Kerry discussions never end well. And they give me serious deja vu.

115 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:26:50pm

re: #105 HoosierHoops

I was a kid during Vietnam..Grew up in Napa Valley..About 20 minutes away from Travis AFB...Yes returning Vets were spit upon and called baby killers...I can't forget those reports on the news in the bay area..

Iwouldprefernotto, ozbloke...read the above post.

116 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:27:04pm

re: #114 marjoriemoon

At least no one's brought up Carter.

Oh shit...

117 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:27:13pm

re: #113 ozbloke

Que what?
Elaborate for me.

somehow i missed the part where someone wanted to take rights away.

thus...que?

118 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:27:22pm

re: #114 marjoriemoon

I agree discussions of John Kerry never end well.
I do, however feel he deserves respect for serving our country.
As EVER ONE who has served, deserves respect.

119 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:27:53pm

re: #96 NJDhockeyfan

No but I would tell them to their faces that they are American piles of garbage. I have that right.

And I wouldn't stop you, I'm struggling with the view that antiwar protesters are anti-american.

John Kerry fought for his country, and because he became 'against the war' you consider him anti-american.

120 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:27:58pm

What's un-American is throwing Pat Tillman and his family under the bus after the truth came out.

121 sizzleRI  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:28:05pm

re: #112 NJDhockeyfan

I don't believe he made it up either. i'm just saying there is an argument that it wasn't all that common.

122 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:28:06pm

re: #115 NJDhockeyfan

Iwouldprefernotto, ozbloke...read the above post.

There really aren't any credible cases of vets being spat on.

That doesn't mean that they weren't treated very shabbily.

123 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:28:30pm

re: #116 JasonA

At least no one's brought up Carter.

Oh shit...

Is he still running away from the rabbits?

124 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:28:34pm

re: #116 JasonA

At least no one's brought up Carter.

Oh shit...

quick...ummm...Luke Skywalker was a whiny little girl...discuss.

125 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:28:58pm

Oh, and John Kerry never called anyone a "baby killer".

126 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:29:13pm

Eleventy!

127 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:29:15pm

re: #119 ozbloke

And I wouldn't stop you, I'm struggling with the view that antiwar protesters are anti-american.

John Kerry fought for his country, and because he became 'against the war' you consider him anti-american.

I never said he was anti-American.

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:29:18pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

It's a fact. Everyone knows it.

It may be a fact that it happened. That doesn't mean that more than a handful of people who were against the war actually did such things.

And I'm willing to bet that John Kerry was not in that handful.

129 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:29:38pm

Is it too late to rekindle the videogame music thread? Just listen to this and try not to beat the crap out of anyone standing within 50 feet of you.

Jack Wall- Fury, Hammer, & Tongs (Jade Empire)

130 Stanghazi  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:30:45pm

re: #119 ozbloke

And I wouldn't stop you, I'm struggling with the view that antiwar protesters are anti-american.

John Kerry fought for his country, and because he became 'against the war' you consider him anti-american.

It's that 'your either with us or against us' mindset. It totally disallows us to be American.

131 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:31:50pm

re: #117 Aceofwhat?

somehow i missed the part where someone wanted to take rights away.

thus...que?

Thats ok, cos I missed that part too.

132 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:32:31pm

re: #115 NJDhockeyfan

Iwouldprefernotto, ozbloke...read the above post.

Most transportation to Vietnam came through Travis..Planes after planes after planes fucking day and night flew over the Valley..I was just a little kid..But there were no parades for soldiers and horrible reports about their treatment upon return.. I remember

133 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:33:06pm

re: #118 Floral Giraffe

I agree discussions of John Kerry never end well.
I do, however feel he deserves respect for serving our country.
As EVER ONE who has served, deserves respect.

Well, it depends. :) Timothy McVeigh and John Allen Muhammad for example were veterans and don't deserve any respect.

134 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:33:35pm

re: #120 Gus 802

What's un-American is throwing Pat Tillman and his family under the bus after the truth came out.

Don't try to change the topic. Defend your man, don't try to fling blame at others.

135 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:33:49pm

re: #86 NJDhockeyfan

You better tell Hillary. She thinks he believes he's some sort of reformer along with other Congressmen.

We were talking about Kerry, not Clinton.

Your quote mine misrepresented Kerry's attitude in an attempt at well poisoning.

136 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:34:06pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

Don't try to change the topic. Defend your man, don't try to fling blame at others.

Thanks for the advice DF but as you know, I'm a free agent. ;)

137 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:34:38pm

re: #133 Gus 802

Well, it depends. :) Timothy McVeigh and John Allen Muhammad for example were veterans and don't deserve any respect.

Yeah, but thankfully those two are now the only good kind of terrorists: dead ones.

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:34:51pm

re: #118 Floral Giraffe

I agree discussions of John Kerry never end well.
I do, however feel he deserves respect for serving our country.
As EVER ONE who has served, deserves respect.

Absolutely. I do not believe in minimizing or being disrespectful of someone's service because I disagree with them politically.

And frankly, I was appalled at the way Kerry was attacked over his.

139 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:35:36pm

re: #125 Gus 802

Oh, and John Kerry never called anyone a "baby killer".

No, he only claimed this about our soldiers who were still on the battlefield:

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."

He hasn't given any names of those vets who told him these 'stories' as far as I know.

140 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:35:37pm

re: #118 Floral Giraffe

I agree discussions of John Kerry never end well.
I do, however feel he deserves respect for serving our country.
As EVER ONE who has served, deserves respect.

And well decorated.

141 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:35:46pm

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

Absolutely. I do not believe in minimizing or being disrespectful of someone's service because I disagree with them politically.

And frankly, I was appalled at the way Kerry was attacked over his.

Jerome Corsi is a lying, disgraceful sack of shit.

Discuss.

142 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:36:16pm

re: #127 NJDhockeyfan

I never said he was anti-American.

You are right, you didn't, apologies, but I would still like some links of where the returning vets were spat on please.

143 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:36:49pm

re: #132 HoosierHoops

Most transportation to Vietnam came through Travis..Planes after planes after planes fucking day and night flew over the Valley..I was just a little kid..But there were no parades for soldiers and horrible reports about their treatment upon return.. I remember

I don't remember things like that. I was crazy about the AF and Navy back then and used to love visiting McGuire AFB, Lakehurst NAS, and Fort Dix. Partied with a few Vietnam vets in the late 70s and of course they were all different people.

144 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:36:55pm

re: #119 ozbloke

And I wouldn't stop you, I'm struggling with the view that antiwar protesters are anti-american.

John Kerry fought for his country, and because he became 'against the war' you consider him anti-american.

The sort of false allegations that Kerry hurled and suborned against the US military marks him as anti-American in my eyes. He stabbed his comrades and his nation in the back. To me he will always be the Back-Stabbing Back-Bencher.

145 Stanghazi  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:37:04pm

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

Absolutely. I do not believe in minimizing or being disrespectful of someone's service because I disagree with them politically.

And frankly, I was appalled at the way Kerry was attacked over his.

It was so fucking hypocritical. People so blindly support the troops in all other circumstances, but Kerry? It was Lee Atwater politics.

146 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:37:25pm

re: #133 Gus 802

I disagree, they deserve respect for their service.
They deserve criticisms for their later acts.

147 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:37:40pm

re: #139 NJDhockeyfan

No, he only claimed this about our soldiers who were still on the battlefield:

He hasn't given any names of those vets who told him these 'stories' as far as I know.

Right. But hey. What he said is by and large true. It wasn't no picnic over there. It wasn't a sanitized movie version.

148 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:38:23pm

re: #89 NJDhockeyfan

The ones that spit on the returning soldiers, called them baby killers, and treated them like shit are anti-American as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, of course. Disagree with the war, recognize that in addition to normal war, atrocities were committed by both sides, including the one claiming the moral high ground, and you are un-American.

Didn't the government treat the vets like shit after their return?

149 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:38:28pm

re: #146 Floral Giraffe

I disagree, they deserve respect for their service.
They deserve criticisms for their later acts.

No way! You must agree with me! //

150 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:39:31pm

re: #145 Stanley Sea

I know the man who pulled John Kerry from the river.
Never met a finer man.
Don't adore his politics, but, I sure do adore the man.
Yesterday, today & tomorrow.
He's a true hero, IMO.

151 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:39:52pm

re: #121 sizzleRI

I don't believe he made it up either. i'm just saying there is an argument that it wasn't all that common.

Probably the larger problem was that Vietnam vets often didn't get the care they needed relating to PTSD or even physical problems when they came home. They often became homeless and forgotten. I don't know if they're paying more attention to it now. I think there are private organizations, non-profits, trying to help them now.

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:40:23pm

re: #122 Obdicut

There really aren't any credible cases of vets being spat on.

That doesn't mean that they weren't treated very shabbily.

By the government that sent them to fight as well as by civilians who made them a stand-in for their hatred of the war.

A friend's husband is in group therapy for his PTSD at the VFW. He's in his early forties. There are guys in his group, Vietnam vets, who have JUST BEEN DIAGNOSED.

Jesus. Can you imagine the string of failed relationships, broken families, drug abuse, and general despair that sentence implies?

153 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:40:29pm

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

Mai Lai was real.

154 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:40:34pm

re: #124 Aceofwhat?

quick...ummm...Luke Skywalker was a whiny little girl...discuss.

Agreed. Now, about Jimmy Carter...

155 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:40:48pm

re: #143 Gus 802

I don't remember things like that. I was crazy about the AF and Navy back then and used to love visiting McGuire AFB, Lakehurst NAS, and Fort Dix. Partied with a few Vietnam vets in the late 70s and of course they were all different people.

It's what I remember..I was a kid...That doesn't mean Kerry was wrong for disagreeing with our Government over a unjust and stupid war..
Who gives a fuck if rice farmers were democratic or socialist? It wasn't worth one Americans life..Period..

156 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:40:51pm

re: #139 NJDhockeyfan

No, he only claimed this about our soldiers who were still on the battlefield:

He hasn't given any names of those vets who told him these 'stories' as far as I know.

Actually, the NCIS was tasked to investigate the claims for the "Winter Soldier Investigation" Kerry took part in. Of all the charges they looked into, only two ended up with enough supporting evidence to be referred for prosecution and only one of those two actually resulted in a conviction. Kerry had sold the Senate a bag of bullshit, that turned out to have far fewer facts than baseless allegations.

157 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:41:16pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

It's a fact. Everyone knows it.

More crappy fallacies.

I remember quite a few anti-war demonstrations in the '60s, but I don't remember your 'fact'. Perhaps you can produce a better source for your fact than a generic 'everybody'?

158 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:41:22pm

It is anti-harmonic to disagree with me. You aren't an anti-harmonic are you?!

159 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:41:29pm

re: #142 ozbloke

You are right, you didn't, apologies, but I would still like some links of where the returning vets were spat on please.

I'll take the word from the vets that told me which is good enough for me. I don't need a link.

160 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:42:51pm

But! That doesn't mean that's all that went on in Vietnam. What Kerry described was one aspect.

161 sizzleRI  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:43:03pm

re: #151 marjoriemoon

Probably the larger problem was that Vietnam vets often didn't get the care they needed relating to PTSD or even physical problems when they came home. They often became homeless and forgotten. I don't know if they're paying more attention to it now. I think there are private organizations, non-profits, trying to help them now.

That is probably the saddest thing at this point. Everyone uses the vets for political points. So few ever care about how many veterans are in the streets. And its bad out there.

162 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:43:06pm

re: #141 JasonA

Jerome Corsi is a lying, disgraceful sack of shit.

Discuss.

Agreed. Now, about Luke Skywalker...

163 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:43:28pm

re: #139 NJDhockeyfan

What they do know is that when you don't have a volunteer army, you tend to get young men who shouldn't be soldiers. I'm not going to say it never happens now, but I don't think it has near as often.

And yea, I think it did happen in Vietnam.

164 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:43:29pm

Sooo... who here is in favor of spitting on vets, please raise your hands?

What the hell are you guys fighting about?

165 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:43:44pm

re: #129 JasonA

Is it too late to rekindle the videogame music thread? Just listen to this and try not to beat the crap out of anyone standing within 50 feet of you.

Jack Wall- Fury, Hammer, & Tongs (Jade Empire)

[Video]

This one wasn't in the game. It should have been.

166 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:43:53pm

re: #147 Gus 802

Right. But hey. What he said is by and large true. It wasn't no picnic over there. It wasn't a sanitized movie version.

There is no proof of what he claimed. Until he brings forward some vets who told him those stories I'll consider him a fucking liar.

167 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:43:56pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

Agreed. Now, about Luke Skywalker...

He's a whiny little bitch.

Now, about Gordon Freeman...

168 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:44:05pm

re: #164 JasonA

Sooo... who here is in favor of spitting on vets, please raise your hands?

What the hell are you guys fighting about?

I don't think we're fighting. :)

169 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:44:08pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

Agreed. Now, about Luke Skywalker...

Whiny little girl?

He gets it from his father.

End of discussion.

170 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:44:10pm

re: #132 HoosierHoops

Most transportation to Vietnam came through Travis..Planes after planes after planes fucking day and night flew over the Valley..I was just a little kid..But there were no parades for soldiers and horrible reports about their treatment upon return.. I remember

Hi HH,
I'm that old too, I marched in the 1969 anti Vietnam March in Melbourne Australia.

I agree with you, the returning Vets were sometimes treated appallingly.
I just have never seen any news stories where Vets were spat on.
I wasn't everywhere, so I don't know whether it happened, but if it did it would be great if I had something to show people who disbelieve it.

I think Obi said it best up thread, the Vietnam Vets needed support, I don't think that they were well received by the under 35's of that era, but I also don't believe the government did enough for them either.

I have not met a Vietnam Vet that has not been affected for life through their service.

If we are going to send kids to war, we sure want to make sure they are looked after, lip service doesn't cut it.

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:44:24pm

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

The sort of false allegations that Kerry hurled and suborned against the US military marks him as anti-American in my eyes. He stabbed his comrades and his nation in the back. To me he will always be the Back-Stabbing Back-Bencher.

How have these allegations been determined to be false?

172 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:44:34pm

re: #150 Floral Giraffe

Any 18 year old, green beret, that came home at 100 pounds, having lived behind the lines, and SURVIVED. Married his childhood sweetheart, just married off his first kid, and is today, a healthy, balanced human being, is a miracle, and a testament to the strength of the human spirit.

173 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:45:14pm

re: #148 b_sharp


Didn't the government treat the vets like shit after their return?

Not that I'm aware of.

174 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:45:21pm

re: #166 NJDhockeyfan

There is no proof of what he claimed. Until he brings forward some vets who told him those stories I'll consider him a fucking liar.

I was a bartender at a bar that had a lot of Vietnam vets. They all had atrocity stories.

One of them had committed an atrocity. He was the worst off.

One of them threw a pint glass through a TV when McNamara was on it.

175 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:45:28pm

re: #166 NJDhockeyfan

There is no proof of what he claimed. Until he brings forward some vets who told him those stories I'll consider him a fucking liar.

OK We'll have to leave it at that then.

176 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:45:31pm

Music like this would make me attend church more often:

177 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:45:47pm

re: #151 marjoriemoon

Probably the larger problem was that Vietnam vets often didn't get the care they needed relating to PTSD or even physical problems when they came home. They often became homeless and forgotten. I don't know if they're paying more attention to it now. I think there are private organizations, non-profits, trying to help them now.

It has gotten a little better, but I'm worried that the new generation of soldiers will be screwed up in all-new ways. We're keeping people in the field too long.

178 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:45:50pm

re: #173 NJDhockeyfan

Not that I'm aware of.

Well, they did. They didn't give them any support on returning to society, no attempts to get them off the drugs that they'd often become addicted to.

179 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:45:52pm

re: #153 Obdicut

Mai Lai was real.

I've never said it wasn't. But it was an aberration, it was by no means the norm.

180 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:46:12pm

re: #174 Obdicut

I was a bartender at a bar that had a lot of Vietnam vets. They all had atrocity stories.

One of them had committed an atrocity. He was the worst off.

One of them threw a pint glass through a TV when McNamara was on it.

The fog of war McNamara.

//

Universally disliked.

181 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:47:08pm

re: #180 Gus 802

The fog of war McNamara.

//

Universally disliked.

Aw come on now, we have a lot of things to thank McNamara for...like the F-111...oh wait...

182 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:47:09pm

re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist

Agreed. Now, about Jimmy Carter...

You mean the Hamas supporter guy?

183 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:47:41pm

re: #165 Aceofwhat?

This one wasn't in the game. It should have been.

[Video]

Listening to that would make me beg the Locusts to put me down.

184 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:47:41pm

War, is not what most people are meant for.
They come home broken, in ways that we, can't imagine.
We as a society, sent these folks to fight.
We as a society have a duty to help them.
We are not doing enough to help them.

185 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:48:28pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

Actually, the NCIS was tasked to investigate the claims for the "Winter Soldier Investigation" Kerry took part in. Of all the charges they looked into, only two ended up with enough supporting evidence to be referred for prosecution and only one of those two actually resulted in a conviction. Kerry had sold the Senate a bag of bullshit, that turned out to have far fewer facts than baseless allegations.

In other words he was a fucking liar.

186 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:48:36pm

re: #169 JasonA

Whiny little girl?

He gets it from his father.

End of discussion.

The sins of the father were a thousand times worse. Luke was a freaking saint comparatively speaking.

Now one thing I've recently noticed, is that the writers of the "Clone Wars" cartoon seem to want to make Anakin a decent fellow. A good Jedi and an honorable man. In some ways that's worse than the shitbird of Lukas' movies because it makes his fall harder to take.

187 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:48:41pm

re: #181 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Aw come on now, we have a lot of things to thank McNamara for...like the F-111...oh wait...

Yeah but they're good for a "dump and burn" show.

/

188 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:48:41pm

re: #164 JasonA

Sooo... who here is in favor of spitting on vets, please raise your hands?

What the hell are you guys fighting about?

Just go with it...

John Kerry's a POS.

Discuss....

189 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:48:43pm

re: #176 prononymous

Music like this would make me attend church more often:

[Video]

Christ, I'm having flashbacks.

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:48:50pm

re: #159 NJDhockeyfan

I'll take the word from the vets that told me which is good enough for me. I don't need a link.

I've heard some pretty awful stories about shit that happened in Vietnam from vets who were there, but I'm being asked to believe that Kerry made everything up.

191 Stanghazi  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:49:16pm

re: #139 NJDhockeyfan

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

What gets me is your sunny side view about American soldiers, but you can imagine Islamist folks doing exactly the same shit without a blink of an eye.

We are all people. There are bad people everywhere.re: #163 marjoriemoon

What they do know is that when you don't have a volunteer army, you tend to get young men who shouldn't be soldiers. I'm not going to say it never happens now, but I don't think it has near as often.

And yea, I think it did happen in Vietnam.

JEREMY MORLOCK et al.

I'm leaving my original typing here. I've been typing and deleting since Kerry came up. Oh well, ya'll know me.

192 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:49:34pm

re: #189 JasonA

Christ, I'm having flashbacks.

Bullshit! I did NOT miss that jump!!!

193 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:50:34pm

re: #187 Gus 802

Yeah but they're good for a "dump and burn" show.

/

Well, the F-111 wasn't all bad. When it worked, it did its job well. But the problem was it didn't want to work reliably, especially if you tried to fly it anything other than in a straight line.

194 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:50:58pm

re: #185 NJDhockeyfan

In other words he was a fucking liar.

[Link: www.archives.gov...]

195 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:50:59pm

re: #177 SanFranciscoZionist

It has gotten a little better, but I'm worried that the new generation of soldiers will be screwed up in all-new ways. We're keeping people in the field too long.

Actually, I worded that wrong. I meant that this generation of soldiers are getting more help. There was a program recently, probably Nova, that talked about a non-profit in NY who were helping vets get jobs, housing, etc. I think they were purchasing an apt building for the purpose. I can't recall the details.

196 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:51:17pm

I'm logging off.
Before I go, please do remember, that the warriors being discussed are real people like you & me.
Going, because this isn't to my taste.
Warriors deserve respect.

197 sizzleRI  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:52:07pm

re: #190 SanFranciscoZionist

I've heard some pretty awful stories about shit that happened in Vietnam from vets who were there, but I'm being asked to believe that Kerry made everything up.

Thank you.

I've heard the most sanitized versions. But there is no real question that interrogation over there was...inappropriate.

198 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:52:30pm

re: #196 Floral Giraffe

I'm logging off.
Before I go, please do remember, that the warriors being discussed are real people like you & me.
Going, because this isn't to my taste.
Warriors deserve respect.

No one really points the finger at the soldiers. It's mostly about government policy. Ironically, or perhaps not so ironic, we're also looking at LBJ and JFK here.

199 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:52:56pm

re: #179 Dark_Falcon

I've never said it wasn't. But it was an aberration, it was by no means the norm.

The vets I talked to said that there were some places that it was the norm. It wasn't the norm everywhere.

Those guys had no reason to lie and make themselves look worse for it.

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:53:08pm

re: #173 NJDhockeyfan

Not that I'm aware of.

Guy who tried to get disability over their Agent Orange exposure might disagree.

201 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:53:43pm

If you're in the front line and your CO tells you to raze a village you're not exactly going to flip him the bird.

202 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:53:48pm

re: #186 wlewisiii

The sins of the father were a thousand times worse. Luke was a freaking saint comparatively speaking.

Now one thing I've recently noticed, is that the writers of the "Clone Wars" cartoon seem to want to make Anakin a decent fellow. A good Jedi and an honorable man. In some ways that's worse than the shitbird of Lukas' movies because it makes his fall harder to take.

You think so? Lucas' take makes the rest of the Jedi look like complete dumbasses to me. I'd rather Anakin did it because he thought he had to in order to win, as opposed to a silly self-fulfilling dream about Padme dying.

203 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:54:08pm

re: #178 Obdicut

Well, they did. They didn't give them any support on returning to society, no attempts to get them off the drugs that they'd often become addicted to.

And denied, for years, that Agent Orange could have possibly caused any physical problems.

204 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:54:29pm

re: #201 Gus 802

If you're in the front line and your CO tells you to raze a village you're not exactly going to flip him the bird.

I would.

205 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:55:03pm

re: #185 NJDhockeyfan

In other words he was a fucking liar.

Because NCIS could not find court-ready evidence for his claims about crimes committed in an active war zone? Did they interview the veterans he spoke to, or rely on his testimony for data?

206 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:55:09pm

re: #159 NJDhockeyfan

I'll take the word from the vets that told me which is good enough for me. I don't need a link.

Then thats fine, don't be surprised though if you don't win many people over with your claim.

I'm would like to know if its true, you can't do that for me, thats not your fault. I will still be open to believing its true if any one can provide some links.

207 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:55:23pm

re: #204 prononymous

I would.

Let's have a word in private about "fragging," shall we?

208 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:55:56pm

re: #139 NJDhockeyfan

No, he only claimed this about our soldiers who were still on the battlefield:

He hasn't given any names of those vets who told him these 'stories' as far as I know.

My Lai never happened?

209 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:56:55pm

re: #208 b_sharp

My Lai never happened?

...

*bites his tongue*

210 KT Smells like Roses and Ranbows  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:57:01pm

Weezer Vinyl Manufacturing


Namaste, y'all
211 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:57:13pm

re: #207 JasonA

Let's have a word in private about "fragging," shall we?

Digital warfare is a reasonable way to express the aggression in my primitive human brain, IMO.

Since Wolf3D :D

212 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:58:25pm

re: #211 prononymous

Digital warfare is a reasonable way to express the aggression in my primitive human brain, IMO.

Since Wolf3D :D

Yeah, I never understood all the outrage over "violent video games." If anything, playing a few hours of Fallout a week keeps me from beating people stupid at work.

213 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:58:49pm

re: #202 JasonA

You think so? Lucas' take makes the rest of the Jedi look like complete dumbasses to me. I'd rather Anakin did it because he thought he had to in order to win, as opposed to a silly self-fulfilling dream about Padme dying.

and apparently the Jedi can sense strong emotions...except for lust, affection, love and concern. no one figures out that the golden child is banging a senator? fricken TMZ could have dug that up.

214 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 8:59:36pm

re: #201 Gus 802

If you're in the front line and your CO tells you to raze a village you're not exactly going to flip him the bird.

Not to mention the sheer stress of the situation. Look at the kind of things like the Oakland 'Riders' case--you'll sometimes see cops back each other up on wildly inappropriate actions, because the psychology of being 'at war' is so intense. And those are guys that get to go home and sleep in their own bed.

Some people who commit wartime atrocities are probably just sociopaths who got a good opportunity, but I suspect most of them are normal people put in abnormal circumstances.

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:00:23pm

re: #203 sagehen

And denied, for years, that Agent Orange could have possibly caused any physical problems.

They were shunned by veterans of earlier wars as well. A lot of guys recall being iced out of the VFW events.

216 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:01:27pm

re: #206 ozbloke

Then thats fine, don't be surprised though if you don't win many people over with your claim.

I'm would like to know if its true, you can't do that for me, thats not your fault. I will still be open to believing its true if any one can provide some links.

If you're doubting it ever happened, that would be wrong. I've read reports from vets (yes, all internet) who claim they've been spat on and anti-war protesters who admitted they spat. So...But it probably didn't happen as often as it's made to sound.

The real problem is how the government treated them on their return, and that was shitty. No two ways about it.

217 Four More Tears  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:01:29pm

re: #213 Aceofwhat?

and apparently the Jedi can sense strong emotions...except for lust, affection, love and concern. no one figures out that the golden child is banging a senator? fricken TMZ could have dug that up.

Frankly I think the whole vow of chastity thing was ridiculous. Smelled like a plot fabrication to me.

218 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:02:21pm

re: #214 SanFranciscoZionist

Not to mention the sheer stress of the situation. Look at the kind of things like the Oakland 'Riders' case--you'll sometimes see cops back each other up on wildly inappropriate actions, because the psychology of being 'at war' is so intense. And those are guys that get to go home and sleep in their own bed.

Some people who commit wartime atrocities are probably just sociopaths who got a good opportunity, but I suspect most of them are normal people put in abnormal circumstances.

Right. There a lot of things involved. Someone that's been in country for months and has seen his friends die at the hands of the enemy. Then it transcends any notion of patriotism and can become a rather personal experience. You're out there, all alone, with your friends.

219 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:02:40pm

re: #212 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, I never understood all the outrage over "violent video games." If anything, playing a few hours of Fallout a week keeps me from beating people stupid at work.

The one thing about games that does give me some pause is something I read in a book about the invasion of Iraq. Apparently this generation of soldiers does not have the percentage of guys who won't fire when first put into a combat situation that had persisted for generations and was seen as normal. It's been suggested that first person shooters have something to do with that.

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:03:04pm

re: #213 Aceofwhat?

and apparently the Jedi can sense strong emotions...except for lust, affection, love and concern. no one figures out that the golden child is banging a senator? fricken TMZ could have dug that up.

Probably did, except that the Jedi don't watch fluff like that.

221 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:03:24pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

Guy who tried to get disability over their Agent Orange exposure might disagree.

But that doesn't fit the narrative, does it?

When I was first in the army back in 82-85 there were a whole lot of E6 & E7's, who had been badly damaged by Vietnam, being allowed to coast to their 20 because they needed their retirement. Everyone knew they couldn't trust in the VA or the Government to take care of them. At least that way they would have a little something. It was damn good we didn't go to war in those days except for that live fire exercise in Grenada.

222 ElCapitanAmerica  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:03:56pm

Sarah Palin showing support for Trump ... and asking "What is Obama hiding", but still making it sound like she's not a birther but trying to sound like one. Having it both ways!

Video here

[Link: www.mediaite.com...]

223 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:04:13pm

re: #178 Obdicut

Well, they did. They didn't give them any support on returning to society, no attempts to get them off the drugs that they'd often become addicted to.

I met a Vietnam vet at a Sbarros in the mall once. I asked him why the WWII vets came back as heroes and generally led a normal life afterward but alot of the Vietnam vets came back with mental problems.
He explained it like this. When the soldiers came back from fighting during WWII they spent time together on a ship talking about what they just went through. It gave them time to reflect what happened with others who had experienced the same thing and helped them deal with it. During the Vietnam war he said they would be fighting in the jungle then suddenly flown home on a plane and to the states the next day. They had no fellow soldiers to talk with on the way back. He believed coming back on ships for weeks helped the WWII soldiers where the flights back from Vietnam hurt those guys.

224 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:05:56pm

re: #190 SanFranciscoZionist

I've heard some pretty awful stories about shit that happened in Vietnam from vets who were there, but I'm being asked to believe that Kerry made everything up.

I'm not asking you you to believe that. I said I believe he's a fucking liar, and I do.

225 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:06:27pm

Did the UN condemn what Quacky Kaddafi did in Libya? I ask because I was about to comment about hearing crickets from the UN but now I realize that I have nothing to base that on (save for the obvious Israel bashing it does on a regular basis).

226 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:06:33pm

re: #179 Dark_Falcon

I've never said it wasn't. But it was an aberration, it was by no means the norm.

Did Kerry claim atrocities were the norm?

227 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:07:14pm

nighty-night, all. be good.

228 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:07:21pm

re: #218 Gus 802

Right. There a lot of things involved. Someone that's been in country for months and has seen his friends die at the hands of the enemy. Then it transcends any notion of patriotism and can become a rather personal experience. You're out there, all alone, with your friends.

I think it really falls back on the draft. When you don't have a volunteer army, you don't have as well trained soldiers. Also, there was a lot of reported drug abuse by soldiers in Vietnam.

229 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:07:55pm

re: #188 marjoriemoon

Just go with it...

John Kerry's a POS.

Discuss...

Burp.

230 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:08:02pm

re: #224 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not asking you you to believe that. I said I believe he's a fucking liar, and I do.

Fair enough.

I wasn't there, and he was, so unless I see some sort of proof, I'm not going to go there.

231 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:08:10pm

re: #219 SanFranciscoZionist

The one thing about games that does give me some pause is something I read in a book about the invasion of Iraq. Apparently this generation of soldiers does not have the percentage of guys who won't fire when first put into a combat situation that had persisted for generations and was seen as normal. It's been suggested that first person shooters have something to do with that.

Helps when you have items like America's Army, which you can either download online or pick up at your local Army recruiter.

232 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:08:33pm

re: #223 NJDhockeyfan

I met a Vietnam vet at a Sbarros in the mall once. I asked him why the WWII vets came back as heroes and generally led a normal life afterward but alot of the Vietnam vets came back with mental problems.
He explained it like this. When the soldiers came back from fighting during WWII they spent time together on a ship talking about what they just went through. It gave them time to reflect what happened with others who had experienced the same thing and helped them deal with it. During the Vietnam war he said they would be fighting in the jungle then suddenly flown home on a plane and to the states the next day. They had no fellow soldiers to talk with on the way back. He believed coming back on ships for weeks helped the WWII soldiers where the flights back from Vietnam hurt those guys.

The other thing to remember though is that a lot of WWII vets did come back with mental health issues. It just wasn't socially acceptable back then for most anyone to talk about such things. So they kept things bottled up inside for decades. It could also be that it wasn't on the forefront as much because of the prevalence of the modern media during the Vietnam era.

233 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:09:20pm

re: #216 marjoriemoon

If you're doubting it ever happened, that would be wrong. I've read reports from vets (yes, all internet) who claim they've been spat on and anti-war protesters who admitted they spat. So...But it probably didn't happen as often as it's made to sound.

The real problem is how the government treated them on their return, and that was shitty. No two ways about it.

Hi Marjoriemoon,

I would not be surprised if it happened, all groups have nutters.
I'm surprised by how often it comes up when talking about Vietnam, yet I can not find any stories from the time when it is alleged it happened.

I understand that today, most people knew a person who had a photo of someone who saw Lochy, what I would like is any archival stories from the era of Vets from any credible media of the day.

234 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:09:27pm

re: #228 marjoriemoon

I think it really falls back on the draft. When you don't have a volunteer army, you don't have as well trained soldiers. Also, there was a lot of reported drug abuse by soldiers in Vietnam.

One of my father's cousins was a liquor distribution quartermaster, or whatever they called them, in Vietnam. He had a lovely war. Behind the lines, lots of shipping work, no combat, and all the whiskey he could drink.

235 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:09:58pm

re: #228 marjoriemoon

I think it really falls back on the draft. When you don't have a volunteer army, you don't have as well trained soldiers. Also, there was a lot of reported drug abuse by soldiers in Vietnam.

Yep. I would not want to get high in Vietnam as many did. But the draft played a big role since they took people to Vietnam literally against their will.

236 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:10:22pm

re: #202 JasonA

You think so? Lucas' take makes the rest of the Jedi look like complete dumbasses to me. I'd rather Anakin did it because he thought he had to in order to win, as opposed to a silly self-fulfilling dream about Padme dying.

yeah, I think we're saying the same thing in a way, because the idea of what they are showing in CW is the basis of tragedy. It is actually drama. Unlike the crap that Lukas produces, it makes you care that Anakin is on the Lost Highway. George never did that and the only reason we care about Luke is the stuff Leigh Brackett got in there before she died.

237 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:10:39pm

re: #230 SanFranciscoZionist

Fair enough.

I wasn't there, and he was, so unless I see some sort of proof, I'm not going to go there.

A bunch of vets who fought along side him said he was full of shit if I remember correctly. I haven't looked it up but I think I remember seeing them on TV talking about it when he was running for President.

238 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:11:42pm

re: #232 Gus 802

The other thing to remember though is that a lot of WWII vets did come back with mental health issues. It just wasn't socially acceptable back then for most anyone to talk about such things. So they kept things bottled up inside for decades. It could also be that it wasn't on the forefront as much because of the prevalence of the modern media during the Vietnam era.

My grandmother once described my grandfather trying to strangle her in his sleep, screaming about Japs coming over the hill. They divorced less than a decade after he got back from the war, Catholic virtue and small-town gossip be damned.

That generation drank a lot.

239 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:12:05pm

re: #177 SanFranciscoZionist

It has gotten a little better, but I'm worried that the new generation of soldiers will be screwed up in all-new ways. We're keeping people in the field too long.

I can answer that, as I talked to some of their caregivers in the course of putting together an event that dealt with PTSD earlier this year. They are getting re: #177 SanFranciscoZionist

It has gotten a little better, but I'm worried that the new generation of soldiers will be screwed up in all-new ways. We're keeping people in the field too long.

I can actually speak to that. I spoke to a number of people who treat PTSD while working on a Military Health conference earlier this year. Today's troops have access to new treatments that are more effective that before and the military is making every effort to ensure that they are treated and do not feel any stigma for having sought treatment.

But just because its much better now, doesn't mean this war hasn't broken a small number of our soldiers. That has happened, I know as a fact. But some men coming home lost is a sad fact of war. For me, working on that conference is a reminder of the cost of the polices I advocated for. But I did my best with it, and did whatever small things I could do to bring caregivers together to find solutions.

240 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:12:29pm

re: #223 NJDhockeyfan

I'd say that was part of it. But the community reception was a big part of it, too. Not to mention that the black soldiers were often going back to the same racism they'd left behind.

Those WWII black veterans, man, it always burns me up to think of how they were treated. We were damn lucky that any black men and women signed up for the armed forces in WWII. Without the Red Bull Express, the Bulge would have been a lot bloodier.

241 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:12:35pm

re: #226 b_sharp

Did Kerry claim atrocities were the norm?

Yes, he did.

242 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:13:09pm

re: #237 NJDhockeyfan

A bunch of vets who fought along side him said he was full of shit if I remember correctly. I haven't looked it up but I think I remember seeing them on TV talking about it when he was running for President.

Yes. And I'm supposed to believe them, and not him. I do understand that.

I just think it's crap.

243 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:14:20pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

I can answer that, as I talked to some of their caregivers in the course of putting together an event that dealt with PTSD earlier this year. They are getting re: #177 SanFranciscoZionist

I can actually speak to that. I spoke to a number of people who treat PTSD while working on a Military Health conference earlier this year. Today's troops have access to new treatments that are more effective that before and the military is making every effort to ensure that they are treated and do not feel any stigma for having sought treatment.

But just because its much better now, doesn't mean this war hasn't broken a small number of our soldiers. That has happened, I know as a fact. But some men coming home lost is a sad fact of war. For me, working on that conference is a reminder of the cost of the polices I advocated for. But I did my best with it, and did whatever small things I could do to bring caregivers together to find solutions.

I hope you're right. I do not think we can keep people in the field this long and not pay for it for years to come.

244 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:15:12pm

re: #233 ozbloke

Hi Marjoriemoon,

I would not be surprised if it happened, all groups have nutters.
I'm surprised by how often it comes up when talking about Vietnam, yet I can not find any stories from the time when it is alleged it happened.

I understand that today, most people knew a person who had a photo of someone who saw Lochy, what I would like is any archival stories from the era of Vets from any credible media of the day.

Hi ozbloke :)

I'm not talking about my mother's cousin's brother... Look here. It's just a blog I found, but there's others.

[Link: pushingrope.blogspot.com...]

The thing is, the war was so incredibly unpopular and everything was anti-war. The music, drug, love, love love, the whole hippie thing, the soldiers were often seen as monsters by the public and I guess the government for as much as they helped them.

The VA Hospital, btw, in Miami is awesome and has some of the finest doctors in the nation.

245 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:16:02pm

re: #235 Gus 802

Yep. I would not want to get high in Vietnam as many did. But the draft played a big role since they took people to Vietnam literally against their will.

True. And those problems motivated Donald Rumsfeld to work to end the draft. The reult was that by the time Rumsfeld's second turn as SecDef came, America had men fighting who were (in the main) better suited to withstanding the stress of combat.

246 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:16:04pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

I can answer that, as I talked to some of their caregivers in the course of putting together an event that dealt with PTSD earlier this year. They are getting re: #177 SanFranciscoZionist

I can actually speak to that. I spoke to a number of people who treat PTSD while working on a Military Health conference earlier this year. Today's troops have access to new treatments that are more effective that before and the military is making every effort to ensure that they are treated and do not feel any stigma for having sought treatment.

But just because its much better now, doesn't mean this war hasn't broken a small number of our soldiers. That has happened, I know as a fact. But some men coming home lost is a sad fact of war. For me, working on that conference is a reminder of the cost of the polices I advocated for. But I did my best with it, and did whatever small things I could do to bring caregivers together to find solutions.

Despite all the occasional bad publicity war fighter care is the best it's ever been. That includes suicide outreach. It's not perfect but it's still the best ever.

247 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:16:29pm

re: #235 Gus 802

Yep. I would not want to get high in Vietnam as many did. But the draft played a big role since they took people to Vietnam literally against their will.

I don't know if there's been studies on that, per se. Volunteer v. a drafted army, but I've heard comments about it.

248 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:17:11pm

re: #243 SanFranciscoZionist

I hope you're right. I do not think we can keep people in the field this long and not pay for it for years to come.

Oh, we'll pay. But because we've put in so much time and effort helping our veterans the price will not be nearly as high this time.

249 Iwouldprefernotto  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:17:32pm

re: #173 NJDhockeyfan

Not that I'm aware of.

If the govt. doesn't treat vets like crap how come there are so many homeless ones? Vets, especially during Nam were ignored be the "patriots" that sent them.

250 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:17:56pm

re: #232 Gus 802

The other thing to remember though is that a lot of WWII vets did come back with mental health issues. It just wasn't socially acceptable back then for most anyone to talk about such things. So they kept things bottled up inside for decades. It could also be that it wasn't on the forefront as much because of the prevalence of the modern media during the Vietnam era.

I had always wondered why a bunch of Vietnam vets appeared to have mental issues. That guy, who admitted he did, was the first person to say something that made sense to me of reasons why. It was an interesting lunch that day, a lunch I will never forget. He was a very nice guy and was happy to explain it to me. He also said during WWII the soldiers pretty much know who the enemy was, the Germans, Italians, or the Japs. In Vietnam they didn't know. During the day they could purchase food & other things at a village near where he was from people who were very friendly. At night those same friendly people were the ones firing at them.

251 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:18:09pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

Sorry about the messed up post. Firefox did a belly-flop on me.

252 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:19:30pm

re: #223 NJDhockeyfan

I met a Vietnam vet at a Sbarros in the mall once. I asked him why the WWII vets came back as heroes and generally led a normal life afterward but alot of the Vietnam vets came back with mental problems.
He explained it like this. When the soldiers came back from fighting during WWII they spent time together on a ship talking about what they just went through. It gave them time to reflect what happened with others who had experienced the same thing and helped them deal with it. During the Vietnam war he said they would be fighting in the jungle then suddenly flown home on a plane and to the states the next day. They had no fellow soldiers to talk with on the way back. He believed coming back on ships for weeks helped the WWII soldiers where the flights back from Vietnam hurt those guys.

There's also the fact that *everybody* was in WWII. The draft was every healthy male 18-34 with very few exceptions -- including all of Major League Baseball, the Harvard student body, movie stars... so as vets, everybody they ever met in their age group was another vet. All the guys in the neighborhood, all the guys at work...

Plus of course, it was a war that came to a satisfying finish.

253 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:19:36pm

re: #237 NJDhockeyfan

A bunch of vets who fought along side him said he was full of shit if I remember correctly. I haven't looked it up but I think I remember seeing them on TV talking about it when he was running for President.

Then you remember bald faced propaganda and are spreading it.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

254 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:21:15pm

re: #237 NJDhockeyfan

A bunch of vets who fought along side him said he was full of shit if I remember correctly. I haven't looked it up but I think I remember seeing them on TV talking about it when he was running for President.

Are you referring to Stephen Gardner who admits he wasn't there? Or are you talking about Larry Thurlow whose lies are contradicted by his own medal citation?

255 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:21:59pm

re: #253 prononymous

Then you remember bald faced propaganda and are spreading it.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #254 goddamnedfrank

Are you referring to Stephen Gardner who admits he wasn't there? Or are you talking about Larry Thurlow whose lies are contradicted by his own medal citation?

I didn't look it up so I don't know.

256 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:22:22pm

re: #244 marjoriemoon

Hi ozbloke :)

I'm not talking about my mother's cousin's brother... Look here. It's just a blog I found, but there's others.


Sorry Marj if it came across as speaking about you.

I preceded that statement with:
"I'm surprised by how often it comes up when talking about Vietnam, yet I can not find any stories from the time when it is alleged it happened."

This is the first time we have discussed this...

Also re you link, I was looking to find stories of Vets returning from Vietnam and being spat on in archived stories from the media of the time.

I'm old, yet I have not seen any links to such stories. Or been pointed to anywhere where they may exist.

In a puff, they were gone ~ keyser soze

257 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:22:23pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

I hope you are right. I have a family member that works in the VA as a psychiatrist helping vets. They have to see so many vets and can spend so little time working with them that the treatment is significantly less effective then it could be. And with further cuts coming down the line I don't suspect we are really doing them justice in this regard.

258 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:22:45pm

re: #247 marjoriemoon

I don't know if there's been studies on that, per se. Volunteer v. a drafted army, but I've heard comments about it.

And the difference between a selective draft and an everybody draft.

259 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:23:14pm

re: #250 NJDhockeyfan

I had always wondered why a bunch of Vietnam vets appeared to have mental issues. That guy, who admitted he did, was the first person to say something that made sense to me of reasons why. It was an interesting lunch that day, a lunch I will never forget. He was a very nice guy and was happy to explain it to me. He also said during WWII the soldiers pretty much know who the enemy was, the Germans, Italians, or the Japs. In Vietnam they didn't know. During the day they could purchase food & other things at a village near where he was from people who were very friendly. At night those same friendly people were the ones firing at them.

Yes. It would depend on which theater of operation the vet took part in. Vietnam was pretty intense and by and large jungle warfare. During WWII in the ETO you have Hurtgen or Bastogne and the Pacific was rather challenging as well. The fighting in the Pacific during WWII -- on the islands -- was perhaps one of the worst next to trench warfare during WWI. WWI of course was the beginning of awareness for "shell shock" victims.

260 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:23:57pm

re: #255 NJDhockeyfan

re: #254 goddamnedfrank

I didn't look it up so I don't know.

Well now you do. And knowing is half...

Ah, fuck it. Why are we still talking about that douchenozzle?

261 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:24:50pm

re: #248 Dark_Falcon

Oh, we'll pay. But because we've put in so much time and effort helping our veterans the price will not be nearly as high this time.

I think the modern armor will keep more soldiers alive, but with worse injuries than ever before, where once they died, the cost now because they survive will be higher.

262 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:25:10pm

re: #248 Dark_Falcon

Oh, we'll pay. But because we've put in so much time and effort helping our veterans the price will not be nearly as high this time.

Republicans studying plan to cut spending on health care for veterans.

263 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:26:29pm

re: #250 NJDhockeyfan

I had always wondered why a bunch of Vietnam vets appeared to have mental issues. That guy, who admitted he did, was the first person to say something that made sense to me of reasons why. It was an interesting lunch that day, a lunch I will never forget. He was a very nice guy and was happy to explain it to me. He also said during WWII the soldiers pretty much know who the enemy was, the Germans, Italians, or the Japs. In Vietnam they didn't know. During the day they could purchase food & other things at a village near where he was from people who were very friendly. At night those same friendly people were the ones firing at them.

I think there's a lot to that. The Germans were a harder foe man-for-man than any we've faced since. But they were a known enemy. To return to Donald Rumsfeld, its the unknowns that really drive up the fear and stress.

264 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:26:38pm

re: #252 sagehen

There's also the fact that *everybody* was in WWII. The draft was every healthy male 18-34 with very few exceptions -- including all of Major League Baseball, the Harvard student body, movie stars... so as vets, everybody they ever met in their age group was another vet. All the guys in the neighborhood, all the guys at work...

Plus of course, it was a war that came to a satisfying finish.

They understood when someone broke. Sure you had asshole moments like Patton's but overall someone with "issues" after the war got cut slack by his peers because they knew that "there but for the grace of god, goes me". The average vet of WWII that I knew (& still know) tended to feel they were all living on borrowed time and celebrated life as a result. They all seemed to feel that none of them really deserved to survive when their friends died. So those who were broken where given extra consideration. They all knew, in their souls, it could just as easily been them.

265 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:26:53pm

re: #255 NJDhockeyfan

re: #254 goddamnedfrank

I didn't look it up so I don't know.

So you're speaking from a position of deliberate ignorance. Now would be a good time for you to shut the fuck up then.

266 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:27:58pm

re: #262 goddamnedfrank

Republicans studying plan to cut spending on health care for veterans.

Well, I won't support that. And I'll make sure my entire family sends emails to Senator Kirk and Congressman Roskum urging them not to support such measures either.

267 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:29:32pm

re: #265 goddamnedfrank

So you're speaking from a position of deliberate ignorance. Now would be a good time for you to shut the fuck up then.

Fuck off asshole.
[spit]

268 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:29:47pm

re: #260 prononymous

Well now you do. And knowing is half...

Ah, fuck it. Why are we still talking about that douchenozzle?

I started because misinformation annoys me. The subject is irrelevant for the most part.

269 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:31:15pm

re: #256 ozbloke

Sorry Marj if it came across as speaking about you.

I preceded that statement with:
"I'm surprised by how often it comes up when talking about Vietnam, yet I can not find any stories from the time when it is alleged it happened."

This is the first time we have discussed this...

Also re you link, I was looking to find stories of Vets returning from Vietnam and being spat on in archived stories from the media of the time.

I'm old, yet I have not seen any links to such stories. Or been pointed to anywhere where they may exist.

In a puff, they were gone ~ keyser soze

I didn't think you were talking about me. I gave you a link to stories of by vets.

I also don't think you or anyone is going to find stories written by vets at the time. How would they write them? Like books you mean at the time of the war?

270 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:31:47pm

re: #258 sagehen

And the difference between a selective draft and an everybody draft.

What's a selective draft?

271 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:33:04pm

re: #262 goddamnedfrank

Republicans studying plan to cut spending on health care for veterans.

Means-testing veterans' benefits!?!?! Assholes.

If veterans are too expensive, maybe that's something to think about before invading another country.

272 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:35:20pm

re: #270 marjoriemoon

What's a selective draft?

The cold air that comes in around the door knob.

273 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:36:55pm

re: #223 NJDhockeyfan

I think there's something to that. However, my grandmother's brother was in the Army in WWII (mop-up crew on Guadalcanal after the Marines did their thing; I'm utterly clueless on details, sadly). He received a letter of commendation having to do with some situation that involved him killing a couple of Japanese soldiers, one apparently in a hand-to-hand situation. Again, details elude me. But that was the one thing he would never talk about. He would not display the commendation, and the only time I ever saw him get angry (and he did get fiercely angry) was when my dad pressed him to talk about it.

He died when I was 13 or 14 years old. Old enough to grasp that he was a WWII veteran, but not old enough to really appreciate what that meant, and too clueless to pick his brain about it. That's one of my huge regrets.

/coolstorybro

274 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:36:58pm

re: #269 marjoriemoon

I didn't think you were talking about me. I gave you a link to stories of by vets.

I also don't think you or anyone is going to find stories written by vets at the time. How would they write them? Like books you mean at the time of the war?

I was more thinking from the news media, incidents filmed, reporters reporting what they saw, that sort of thing.

I remember in Australia, the media would often show stories of the protesters heckling returning Vets in Australia at the airports and docks.

It must have been bloody awful for them.
It still erks me that we send them so young.

275 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:39:21pm

re: #270 marjoriemoon

What's a selective draft?

One that only effects people who don't know some one ;)

276 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:44:12pm

re: #206 ozbloke

Then thats fine, don't be surprised though if you don't win many people over with your claim.

I'm would like to know if its true, you can't do that for me, thats not your fault. I will still be open to believing its true if any one can provide some links.

I found one for ya...

Vietnam vet Geiger organizes 'Welcome Home' events Wednesday

Ron Geiger was in Vietnam in April of 1971, when his military commanders told him he had to hurry home. His father had died.

Geiger arrived at the Seattle-Tacoma Airport, wearing his jungle fatigues.

A man with long hair and an angry look saw the soldier in his uniform and headed toward him. The conversation that followed is too vulgar to repeat in its entirety here.

"That man spit in my face and called me a baby-killer," recalled Geiger.

Geiger, of Vinton shard those memories on Monday morning, as he worked to organize the "Welcome Home Vietnam Veterans" parade and ceremony which take place this Wednesday, March 30.

Geiger said that after that airport encounter, he just put his hands in his pockets and walked away, although it is not what he felt like doing. He returned to Vietnam a couple weeks after burying his father.

277 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:49:21pm

re: #270 marjoriemoon

What's a selective draft?

The Vietnam draft was selective -- there was the birthday lottery and they only needed about 1/4 to 1/3 of any given year; but then anybody in college got an exemption, or people who could pull strings to get in the National Guard instead, or if you hurried up and got married, then hurried to have a baby, and you were only at risk for a few years... Dick Cheney got 5 exemptions for example.

In WWII, the draft was every able-bodied male, 18-34. All of them. Physicists or aircraft designers would work stateside, but everybody served. Did you ever see "A League of Their Own"? The reason there was women's baseball is because all the Dodgers and Yankees and Red Sox were off to war. Jimmy Stewart and Clark Gable were bomber pilots.

278 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 10:01:09pm

re: #277 sagehen

The Vietnam draft was selective -- there was the birthday lottery and they only needed about 1/4 to 1/3 of any given year; but then anybody in college got an exemption, or people who could pull strings to get in the National Guard instead, or if you hurried up and got married, then hurried to have a baby, and you were only at risk for a few years... Dick Cheney got 5 exemptions for example.

In WWII, the draft was every able-bodied male, 18-34. All of them. Physicists or aircraft designers would work stateside, but everybody served. Did you ever see "A League of Their Own"? The reason there was women's baseball is because all the Dodgers and Yankees and Red Sox were off to war. Jimmy Stewart and Clark Gable were bomber pilots.

Jimmy Stewart flew fighters, not bombers. And Clark Gable served as a waist gunner, not as a pilot.

Everyone served, but not everyone was in uniform. Oil workers and coal miners were generally exempt, though they could not leave their jobs or strike. This was because they had special skills needed for the war effort and were more valuable where they were.

279 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 10:14:02pm

re: #276 NJDhockeyfan

Thank you.

280 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 10:19:20pm

re: #279 ozbloke

Thank you.

Your welcome.

281 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 10, 2011 5:54:42am

re: #120 Gus 802

What's un-American is throwing Pat Tillman and his family under the bus after the truth came out.

That would be reprehensible but I don't recall anyone doing any such thing. Refresh my memory?

282 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Apr 10, 2011 6:46:06am
"The international community’s commitment to Middle Eastern change is about to be tested again."

Sorry I'm late to the dance on this one, but I expect the "international community" to respond to this with a big yawn. Or perhaps a demand that Israel return the Golan to Syria ...

283 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 10, 2011 3:55:25pm

re: #281 RogueOne

That would be reprehensible but I don't recall anyone doing any such thing. Refresh my memory?

oh come on, look it up

284 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 10, 2011 3:56:13pm

I see we had a big stupid waste of time John Kerry thread, some things never change


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