Live Video: President Obama’s Budget Address
Politics • Views: 30,041
Here’s a thread to discuss the President’s budget speech, which is about to begin…
[Live video concluded…]
582 comments
1 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:35:56am |
So, what’s the drinking rules this time?
2 |
iceweasel Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:37:58am |
re: #1 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So, what’s the drinking rules this time?
Do a shot anytime he says “Let me be clear”.
Two shots for “bi-partisan”.
Alternatively, you can bang your head on the wall.
3 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:39:18am |
re: #2 iceweasel
Do a shot anytime he says “Let me be clear”.
Two shots for “bi-partisan”.Alternatively, you can bang your head on the wall.
Chug if he tells the car/Slurpee story again.
4 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:39:40am |
re: #1 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So, what’s the drinking rules this time?
Every time a Andrea Mitchell says Ryan is serious and wonders if The President is not….
Oh, wait that is for before the speech begins.
(and really Maddow you are getting on my nerves lately…)
| 5 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:41:35am |
Yes, truly amazing this video…if I listen closely, I can hear the audience cough almost in tune.
6 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:42:05am |
If he cuts defense spending and raises taxes on the wealthy, the Dems will forgive any of his other ills.
World According to Moon
7 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:42:08am |
Damnit, I can’t watch it here at work, and I would really like to hear what he has to say regarding this whole budget fracas.
8 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:42:24am |
I wonder how many reporters are currently playing solitaire or sudoku on their phones?
| 9 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:42:41am |
re: #8 EmmmieG
I wonder how many reporters are currently playing solitaire or sudoku on their phones?
A post that would have made no sense whatsoever 20 years ago.
| 10 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:42:45am |
re: #7 Fozzie Bear
Damnit, I can’t watch it here at work, and I would really like to hear what he has to say regarding this whole budget fracas.
Can you get youtube? They have a link on the front page.
| 11 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:42:45am |
re: #6 marjoriemoon
If he cuts defense spending and raises taxes on the wealthy, the Dems will forgive any of his other ills.
World According to Moon
Yeah, and if wishes were horses…
| 12 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:43:37am |
re: #11 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yeah, and if wishes were horses…
That’s where my money is! My Prez won’t let me down!
13 |
elisabeth Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:45:04am |
He’s late ~ must be rewriting the speech because the Left threw hissy fits over an unsourced WaPo article.
| 14 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:45:10am |
Does he think he can keep us waiting like Stone Temple Pilots? Git yer ass on stage!
| 15 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:45:31am |
This is actually an elaborate prank whereby the President is staging John Cage’s 4’33”.
| 16 |
makeitstop Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:45:34am |
The country needs a reality check. I want the president to forcefully make the case for tax increases somewhere in the mix. He’ll get hammered by the Right if he does, but then again he’ll get hammered by the Right if he doesn’t.
May as well go for it.
| 17 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:46:02am |
“Yes, we’re gutting the EPA, throwing the poor to the winds, and cutting sweet deals for the wealthy and connected. But these are tough times and we all got to sacrifice…I, for example, will be giving up arugula.”
//
| 18 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:46:20am |
re: #10 marjoriemoon
Can you get youtube? They have a link on the front page.
I could physically watch it, but it looks bad. I wouldn’t get in trouble or anything, but it just sends the wrong message. (I’m the IT guy here, and we have no filters on the internet here. The boss and I both feel it sends to wrong message to employees to block access to any websites. Nobody abuses that trust, so I don’t want to be “that guy”)
| 19 |
brennant Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:47:21am |
| 20 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:48:21am |
re: #18 Fozzie Bear
I could physically watch it, but it looks bad. I wouldn’t get in trouble or anything, but it just sends the wrong message. (I’m the IT guy here, and we have no filters on the internet here. The boss and I both feel it sends to wrong message to employees to block access to any websites. Nobody abuses that trust, so I don’t want to be “that guy”)
I can understand that. You can minimize the screen and just listen while you’re working maybe? Or read about it here later :)
| 22 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:49:24am |
| 25 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:50:30am |
I guess i’ll watch it later, then try to make sense of the comments here in retrospect.
| 26 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:51:00am |
How does one be an outstanding Vice President?
There isn’t anything to do, really, just check on the president’s vital statistics.
| 27 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:51:35am |
Free market. Rugged. Self reliant. Too much government.
Yegods, who wrote his speech, Palin?
| 28 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:51:45am |
As per our discussion last night:
Barack Obama. Same height as Andrew Jackson. Whole lot more sanity.
| 29 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:52:03am |
re: #26 EmmmieG
How does one be an outstanding Vice President?
There isn’t anything to do, really, just check on the president’s vital statistics.
Quayle was probably not all that outstanding. hehe
| 30 |
elisabeth Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:52:21am |
re: #27 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Got to get that American Exceptionalism out of the way.
| 31 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:52:32am |
re: #27 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Free market. Rugged. Self reliant. Too much government.
Yegods, who wrote his speech, Palin?
This is the kind of thing I was complaining about yesterday. Why must the man use the bully pulpit to act like a lower-calorie republican?
| 32 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:52:49am |
re: #29 marjoriemoon
Quayle was probably not all that outstanding. hehe
His job could have been to make Bush look good, in which case he was outstanding.
33 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:53:12am |
re: #28 EmmmieG
As per our discussion last night:
Barack Obama. Same height as Andrew Jackson. Whole lot more sanity.
I would like to think that Andrew Jackson would be more willing to walk up to Boehner and slap him silly for crying all the time.
34 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:53:15am |
re: #31 Fozzie Bear
He’s saying something rather different now.
| 35 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:53:36am |
re: #33 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I would like to think that Andrew Jackson would be more willing to walk up to Boehner and slap him silly for crying all the time.
Naw, he’d just shoot him.
| 37 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:53:51am |
re: #33 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I would like to think that Andrew Jackson would be more willing to walk up to Boehner and slap him silly for crying all the time.
Yes. That.
| 38 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:54:11am |
Uh-oh, he’s treading he in dangerous territory.
| 39 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:54:39am |
He’s justifying social programs and why he actually has to is awful to me, but I guess he does.
40 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:55:05am |
Transcript of the speech:
| 41 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:55:12am |
42 |
I Earned My Sodomy Merit Badge! Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:55:17am |
Hmm. I don’t know if i would call myself a rugged individual, unless you count 1 month and no Mani-Pedi and 1 week without shaving my legs as ‘rugged’.
| 43 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:55:18am |
Obama just said we wouldn’t be a great country without commitments to the poor, sick, and needy.
| 44 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:55:25am |
| 45 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:55:26am |
Uhm, Mr. President, our politicians in the 80s declared that “deficits don’t matter” and spent us into oblivion.
| 46 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:56:08am |
re: #40 Charles
Transcript of the speech:
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]
Oooo cheat sheet! I like it!
| 47 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:56:31am |
49 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:56:51am |
Uh oh! I can here it now. They’re going to say “he’s blaming Bush”.
| 50 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:57:06am |
re: #49 Gus 802
Uh oh! I can here it now. They’re going to say “he’s blaming Bush”.
Hear not here. Woops.
| 52 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:58:11am |
| 53 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:58:32am |
Wow.
The fact is, their vision is less about reducing the deficit than it is about changing the basic social compact in America. As Ronald Reagan’s own budget director said, there’s nothing “serious” or “courageous” about this plan. There’s nothing serious about a plan that claims to reduce the deficit by spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires. There’s nothing courageous about asking for sacrifice from those who can least afford it and don’t have any clout on Capitol Hill. And this is not a vision of the America I know.
Bam.
| 54 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:58:43am |
re: #52 Charles
This is the kind of idiocy being posted at Twitter:
Why are there so many insane people on the right?
Fluoridated water.
///
| 55 |
I Earned My Sodomy Merit Badge! Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:59:00am |
re: #52 Charles
Don’t they call that schizophrenia?
56 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 10:59:12am |
re: #52 Charles
This is the kind of idiocy being posted at Twitter:
Why are there so many insane people on the right?
drugs?
59 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:00:29am |
re: #26 EmmmieG
How does one be an outstanding Vice President?
There isn’t anything to do, really, just check on the president’s vital statistics.
Don’t get falling down drunk at state dinners.
Don’t get caught in flagrante with any member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in a broom closet.
No sex scandals in general.
Don’t snicker loudly or throw peanuts during the SOTU.
It’s really a job about not doing anything too embarassing.
| 60 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:00:51am |
re: #28 EmmmieG
As per our discussion last night:
Barack Obama. Same height as Andrew Jackson. Whole lot more sanity.
He had, pace the birthers, a much more normal upbringing.
| 61 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:01:19am |
re: #29 marjoriemoon
Quayle was probably not all that outstanding. hehe
Quayle was great. He got everyone in America praying for Bush’s health.
| 62 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:01:28am |
This part is awesome:
We will cut spending on prescription drugs by using Medicare’s purchasing power to drive greater efficiency and speed generic brands of medicine onto the market. We will work with governors of both parties to demand more efficiency and accountability from Medicaid. We will change the way we pay for health care – not by procedure or the number of days spent in a hospital, but with new incentives for doctors and hospitals to prevent injuries and improve results. And we will slow the growth of Medicare costs by strengthening an independent commission of doctors, nurses, medical experts and consumers who will look at all the evidence and recommend the best ways to reduce unnecessary spending while protecting access to the services seniors need.
| 65 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:01:56am |
Ok I read the speech, and I am most pleased. He is saying exactly what I have been screaming for years.
I take back about half my cynicism regarding this presidency that I expressed yesterday.
| 66 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:01:58am |
re: #59 SanFranciscoZionist
Don’t get falling down drunk at state dinners.
Don’t get caught in flagrante with any member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in a broom closet.
No sex scandals in general.
Don’t snicker loudly or throw peanuts during the SOTU.It’s really a job about not doing anything too embarassing.
Al Gore was a Most Awesome VP.
| 67 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:02:11am |
re: #36 brennant
Dan Quayle: The hot chick’s fat girlfriend.
Probably the only time in his life that George Herbert Walker Bush was ever ‘the hot chick’ in any sense of the words.
68 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:02:27am |
re: #2 iceweasel
Do a shot anytime he says “Let me be clear”.
Two shots for “bi-partisan”.Alternatively, you can bang your head on the wall.
Dunkirk was not a victory. This was a Dunkirk.
| 69 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:03:01am |
re: #65 Fozzie Bear
Ok I read the speech, and I am most pleased. He is saying exactly what I have been screaming for years.
I take back about half my cynicism regarding this presidency that I expressed yesterday.
Of all the great reasons for LGF, one is to allow some venting and your cynicism always makes me think.
| 70 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:03:12am |
re: #42 Cankles McCellulite
Hmm. I don’t know if i would call myself a rugged individual, unless you count 1 month and no Mani-Pedi and 1 week without shaving my legs as ‘rugged’.
I am a zaftig quasi-suburban individual who gets tetchy when her latte isn’t half skinny.
Honesty, here.
| 71 |
brennant Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:03:18am |
re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist
Probably the only time in his life that George Herbert Walker Bush was ever ‘the hot chick’ in any sense of the words.
GHWB was a looker. >_
72 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:03:21am |
re: #65 Fozzie Bear
Ok I read the speech, and I am most pleased. He is saying exactly what I have been screaming for years.
I take back about half my cynicism regarding this presidency that I expressed yesterday.
Now he has to walk the walk.
But the speech is definitely what I want to hear.
| 73 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:03:22am |
re: #43 Obdicut
Obama just said we wouldn’t be a great country without commitments to the poor, sick, and needy.
He is correct.
| 74 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:03:26am |
Wait, is the president going to suggest we actually have to make tough choices and truly sacrifice.
I may start shedding manly tears here.
| 75 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:03:55am |
re: #65 Fozzie Bear
Yep. It has actual ideas, too, rather than just feel-good rhetoric.
76 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:04:04am |
re: #74 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Wait, is the president going to suggest we actually have to make tough choices and truly sacrifice.
I may start shedding manly tears here.
Oh barf.
| 77 |
I Earned My Sodomy Merit Badge! Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:04:10am |
re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist
Were rugged chic.
| 78 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:04:35am |
re: #74 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Wait, is the president going to suggest we actually have to make tough choices and truly sacrifice.
I may start shedding manly tears here.
**SLAP**
Now at least you have a reason.
| 79 |
Iwouldprefernotto Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:05:21am |
re: #48 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Time for the Bush bashing!
What’s wrong with Bush bashing? It’s not like he’s a saint.
| 80 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:05:31am |
re: #78 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
**SLAP**
Now at least you have a reason.
Thank you, sir, may I have another?
///
| 81 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:06:04am |
re: #75 Obdicut
Yep. It has actual ideas, too, rather than just feel-good rhetoric.
Yep. I’m impressed with the man once again. I just hope he follows up on this, forcefully. I want him to take a stand. I want him to refuse to participate in any more fiscal stupidity.
If he does this, I will be enthusiastic about voting for him again in 2012. I remain cautiously pessimistic, but somewhat less so than yesterday.
| 82 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:06:20am |
re: #79 Iwouldprefernotto
What’s wrong with Bush bashing? It’s not like he’s a saint.
Well… if that’s all you have in your quiver… go for it.
| 83 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:06:47am |
re: #79 Iwouldprefernotto
What’s wrong with Bush bashing? It’s not like he’s a saint.
God forbid anyone mention how we got into the situation we are in.
| 84 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:07:25am |
re: #81 Fozzie Bear
It requires the Democrats in congress to act as well. He can’t do it alone. All of this means nothing without legislative action. And that won’t happen without active organizing on the left, pressuring them to do so.
| 86 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:07:28am |
re: #83 Fozzie Bear
God forbid anyone mention how we got into the situation we are in.
And it’s not like those who whine about Bush bashing don’t blame Democrats for shit too.
| 87 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:08:20am |
OK… great speech.
Now if only the Dems start saying this in unison and actually back up the president.
Otherwise it will be fruitless.
| 88 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:08:36am |
Of course, there will be those who disagree with my approach. Some will argue we shouldn’t even consider raising taxes, even if only on the wealthiest Americans. It’s just an article of faith for them. I say that at a time when the tax burden on the wealthy is at its lowest level in half a century, the most fortunate among us can afford to pay a little more. I don’t need another tax cut. Warren Buffett doesn’t need another tax cut. Not if we have to pay for it by making seniors pay more for Medicare. Or by cutting kids from Head Start. Or by taking away college scholarships that I wouldn’t be here without. That some of you wouldn’t be here without. And I believe that most wealthy Americans would agree with me. They want to give back to the country that’s done so much for them. Washington just hasn’t asked them to.
Fuck yeah.
| 89 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:08:42am |
re: #84 Obdicut
It requires the Democrats in congress to act as well. He can’t do it alone. All of this means nothing without legislative action. And that won’t happen without active organizing on the left, pressuring them to do so.
I was just thinking that.
| 90 |
brennant Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:08:47am |
re: #87 LudwigVanQuixote
OK… great speech.
Now if only the Dems start saying this in unison and actually back up the president.
Otherwise it will be fruitless.
Agreed. Totally agreed. They need one voice in this…
| 91 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:09:06am |
re: #86 HappyWarrior
And it’s not like those who whine about Bush bashing don’t blame Democrats for shit too.
It’s not even “bashing” to point out that the policies the GOP is supporting now were tried under Bush, and failed miserably. It’s insanity to ignore this fact.
| 92 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:09:33am |
hahahaha
He is slamming Ryan’s “serious” plan….awesome.
| 93 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:09:59am |
re: #92 webevintage
hahahaha
He is slamming Ryan’s “serious” plan…awesome.
That’s what he’s doing. ;)
| 94 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:10:00am |
re: #91 Fozzie Bear
It’s not even “bashing” to point out that the policies the GOP is supporting now were tried under Bush, and failed miserably. It’s insanity to ignore this fact.
110% agree.
| 95 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:10:41am |
CLASS WARFARE FUCK YEAH!
Here we go. This is what needs to be said.
| 96 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:10:41am |
re: #81 Fozzie Bear
Yep. I’m impressed with the man once again. I just hope he follows up on this, forcefully. I want him to take a stand. I want him to refuse to participate in any more fiscal stupidity.
If he does this, I will be enthusiastic about voting for him again in 2012. I remain cautiously pessimistic, but somewhat less so than yesterday.
So well said. I honestly think he doesn’t have the balls, or the support from behind to have the balls.
| 97 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:10:41am |
Worst of all, this is a vision that says even though America can’t afford to invest in education or clean energy; even though we can’t afford to care for seniors and poor children, we can somehow afford more than $1 trillion in new tax breaks for the wealthy. Think about it. In the last decade, the average income of the bottom 90% of all working Americans actually declined. The top 1% saw their income rise by an average of more than a quarter of a million dollars each. And that’s who needs to pay less taxes? They want to give people like me a two hundred thousand dollar tax cut that’s paid for by asking thirty three seniors to each pay six thousand dollars more in health costs? That’s not right, and it’s not going to happen as long as I’m President.
FUCK YEAH
| 98 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:10:57am |
re: #87 LudwigVanQuixote
OK… great speech.
Now if only the Dems start saying this in unison and actually back up the president.
Otherwise it will be fruitless.
The other side of that coin is that the Democrats in Congress have been looking for a president who is leading the way. This speech shows he can do that.
| 100 |
iceweasel Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:11:01am |
They want to give people like me a two hundred thousand dollar tax cut that’s paid for by asking thirty three seniors to each pay six thousand dollars more in health costs? That’s not right, and it’s not going to happen as long as I’m President.
GoBama! GoBama!
| 101 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:11:04am |
Applause in the room for his comments about Ryan’s giveaways to the wealthy.
| 102 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:11:05am |
“That’s not going to happen as long as I’m President”
Line in the sand. Let’s hope it stands.
103 |
Randy W. Weeks Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:11:13am |
re: #65 Fozzie Bear
Ok I read the speech, and I am most pleased. He is saying exactly what I have been screaming for years.
I take back about half my cynicism regarding this presidency that I expressed yesterday.
Good…because you were depressing me yesterday. ;)
| 104 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:11:51am |
re: #100 iceweasel
They want to give people like me a two hundred thousand dollar tax cut that’s paid for by asking thirty three seniors to each pay six thousand dollars more in health costs? That’s not right, and it’s not going to happen as long as I’m President.
GoBama! GoBama!
I bought my Ferrari by making 33 senior citizens suffer.
God bless Murica!
//
| 105 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:12:04am |
They want to give people like me a two hundred thousand dollar tax cut that’s paid for by asking thirty three seniors to each pay six thousand dollars more in health costs? That’s not right, and it’s not going to happen as long as I’m President.
Woot woot!
| 107 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:12:38am |
What’s that grinding sound? Oh, it’s the Right gnashing their collective teeth.
| 108 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:12:53am |
re: #102 Obdicut
“That’s not going to happen as long as I’m President”
Line in the sand. Let’s hope it stands.
Lets hope he stands by it, and just refuses, completely fucking refuses, to sign a budget that doesn’t deal sanely with the budget. Say it loud and often: “I will veto any such budget”. Take the heat. Refuse to meet halfway between sane and stupid.
That would be a course of action that would get me manning a phone bank for the guy, rather than just casting one vote.
| 110 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:13:03am |
I was expecting this top be a dull and boring speech. He’s really knocking it out of the park.
| 111 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:13:56am |
Doing the Happy Democrat Snoopy Dance.
| 112 |
iceweasel Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:13:59am |
re: #107 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
What’s that grinding sound? Oh, it’s the Right gnashing their collective
teethfangs.
Fixed.
I’m kidding, the partisan in me comes out sometimes though!
| 114 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:14:46am |
Yeah, that’s right. He said defense.
Good job.
Man, this is a speech that a Democrat has needed to give for a long time.
| 115 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:15:06am |
Awesome speech. He’s not pulling any punches. About time.
The wingnuts on Twitter are completely losing it.
Obama just said he wants America to be like China, Korea, and Brazil
| 116 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:15:18am |
I’m glad he’s pointed out the need to cut from Defense. This is a good speech.
| 117 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:15:31am |
re: #114 Obdicut
Yeah, that’s right. He said defense.
Good job.
Man, this is a speech that a Democrat has needed to give for a long time.
I am still kind of ticked off that he has not said this before now, but i’ll take a late loaf rather than no loaf at all.
| 118 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:15:37am |
re: #115 Charles
Awesome speech. He’s not pulling any punches. About time.
The wingnuts on Twitter are completely losing it.
Cocaine is one hell of a drug.
| 119 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:17:01am |
Use Medicare’s purchasing power to drive down costs! Increase use of generic drugs!
TAKE THAT PHARMA BITCHES!
| 120 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:17:34am |
re: #112 iceweasel
Fixed.
I’m kidding, the partisan in me comes out sometimes though!
Ice, when it comes to the current crop of GOP, it is not about partisanship anymore at all. It ia about wanting to see the plans of evil thwarted. There is no shame in hating evil or calling evil what it is.
The GOP is ignorant, arrogant, heartless, greedy and cruel. They revel in these sins as if they were virtues, spread fear and hatred and lie to deluded masses while stealing from them. They steal the wealth of this nation and destroy its very land all in the name of serving their own sociopathic wants and cravings. They invoke the name of a God who considers kindness, charity and duty to be the highest virtues while promoting greed, hatred, cruelty and corruption.
There is no partisanship in hating evil.
| 121 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:17:52am |
re: #117 Fozzie Bear
He did plead with Democrats in congress to raise taxes before. He really did. They punted. That is a large part of the problem we’re facing.
122 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:17:55am |
Koch brothers are pissed that they can’t squeeze an extra million out of forcing elderly poor to pay for their own meds.
| 123 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:18:18am |
Nice shout to parents of kids with disabilities.
| 124 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:18:26am |
I will not allow Medicare to become a voucher program that leaves seniors at the mercy of the insurance industry, with a shrinking benefit to pay for rising costs.
Paul Ryan GFY.
| 125 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:18:28am |
I will not allow Medicare to become a voucher program that leaves seniors at the mercy of the insurance industry, with a shrinking benefit to pay for rising costs.
Translation: “Fuck you Ryan, you heartless greedy piece of shit”
| 126 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:18:33am |
re: #115 Charles
Awesome speech. He’s not pulling any punches. About time.
The wingnuts on Twitter are completely losing it.
Obama just said he wants America to be like China, Korea, and Brazil
What you mean growing economies with a well funded tech sector that produce goods rather than just services?
| 127 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:18:51am |
And the Ryan Plan goes up in smoke. HA!
| 128 |
barflytom Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:18:54am |
About all you need to hear to understand how lefties think is the phrase
“…spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.”
So letting someone keep some of their own money is “spending” ?
Contrast that with his use of the term “investing” which he was spouting about a few weeks ago - investment in this definition meaning “giving generous pay and benefits to unionized public employees”.
| 129 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:20:20am |
re: #128 barflytom
About all you need to hear to understand how lefties think is the phrase
“…spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.”
So letting someone keep some of their own money is “spending” ?
.
Yes, letting Dad spend his money in the bar rather than on food on the table for the kids is spending money.
| 130 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:20:42am |
Wow. I wonder if he’s serious about refusing the tax breaks for the rich. I don’t think the Wingnuts are willing to give that up.
| 131 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:20:43am |
re: #128 barflytom
investment in this definition meaning “giving generous pay and benefits to unionized public employees”.
What the fuck?
| 132 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:20:43am |
Tax code reform! Hitting all the right notes with this speech.
| 133 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:20:49am |
re: #114 Obdicut
Yeah, that’s right. He said defense.
Good job.
Man, this is a speech that a Democrat has needed to give for a long time.
Obama, as I said yesterday, still has some rockstar left in him.
| 134 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:21:11am |
re: #121 Obdicut
He did plead with Democrats in congress to raise taxes before. He really did. They punted. That is a large part of the problem we’re facing.
Again. It all comes down to if the spineless, disorganized and self serving Dem pols can put their own craven political fears and anglings aside long enough to serve the country as one voice and do what is right. IF they can support the president and they really mean this, we can get back in this game. However, the budget negotiations gave away way too much and didn’t call nearly enough BS at the table. This is a great speech, but after nearly three years of caving to the GOP and castrating themselves, it is empty words to me until the Dems actually fight - and I have seen precious little evidence of them doing so even now.
| 135 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:21:16am |
re: #118 HappyWarrior
CocaineOutrage is one hell of a drug.
| 136 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:21:21am |
If rich people can’t accept a return to Clinton era tax levels than frankly they can go to hel. Why shouldn’t they have to make sacrifices? Others are sacrificing via the spending cuts.
| 137 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:21:44am |
re: #128 barflytom
About all you need to hear to understand how lefties think is the phrase
“…spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.”
So letting someone keep some of their own money is “spending” ?
Contrast that with his use of the term “investing” which he was spouting about a few weeks ago - investment in this definition meaning “giving generous pay and benefits to unionized public employees”.
Yay! we have a troll!
| 138 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:21:45am |
All you need to understand about right-wing thought is that it fails to understand that, if you’re going to live in a society, part of your productivity is due to and therefore remains the property of that society.
| 141 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:23:05am |
re: #128 barflytom
About all you need to hear to understand how lefties think is the phrase
“…spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.”
So letting someone keep some of their own money is “spending” ?
Except they made that money because of the money all the rest of us put into roads and such so yeah, it is not all “their money” and they need to pony up.
I bet you read a lot of Rand….
142 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:23:19am |
New code phrase for tax increases? Spending Reductions in the Tax Code?
| 143 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:23:24am |
re: #128 barflytom
About all you need to hear to understand how lefties think is the phrase
“…spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.”
So letting someone keep some of their own money is “spending” ?
Contrast that with his use of the term “investing” which he was spouting about a few weeks ago - investment in this definition meaning “giving generous pay and benefits to unionized public employees”.
‘Letting someone keep some of their own money’—because previously, we took it all, and laughed when the wealthy came pleading for money to buy a cup of coffee.
It was an evil, and raucous laugh.
| 144 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:23:39am |
re: #129 iossarian
Yes, letting Dad spend his money in the bar rather than on food on the table for the kids is spending money.
I sit in rap anticipation waiting for the government to tell me what I can do with my money.
| 145 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:23:44am |
Thank you, Mr. President for pointing out the obvious regarding tax cuts.
| 146 |
barflytom Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:23:49am |
re: #131 Obdicut
What the fuck?
My point is the dishonest use of language - not raising taxes is called “spending”, spending on recurring costs like wages is called “investment”.
| 147 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:23:50am |
re: #128 barflytom
You are right that cutting taxes is not ‘spending’. It is reduced revenue. From a budget standpoint, reduced revenue and spending look nearly identical.
Claiming that Obama’s definition of ‘investment’ is ‘giving generous pay and benefits to unionized public employees’ is goddamn moronic of you.
| 148 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:24:16am |
re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist
‘Letting someone keep some of their own money’—because previously, we took it all, and laughed when the wealthy came pleading for money to buy a cup of coffee.
It was an evil, and raucous laugh.
Do you realize how hard it is to raise of family of 4 when you only make 250K a year?
//
| 149 |
blueraven Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:24:20am |
re: #144 Walter L. Newton
I sit in rap anticipation waiting for the government to tell me what I can do with my money.
As do the seniors under Ryan’s plan.
| 150 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:24:22am |
re: #136 HappyWarrior
If rich people can’t accept a return to Clinton era tax levels than frankly they can go to hel. Why shouldn’t they have to make sacrifices? Others are sacrificing via the spending cuts.
Yes, but rich people create jobs. When they feel safe enough to do so.
//
| 151 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:24:23am |
re: #128 barflytom
About all you need to hear to understand how lefties think is the phrase
“…spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.”
So letting someone keep some of their own money is “spending” ?
Contrast that with his use of the term “investing” which he was spouting about a few weeks ago - investment in this definition meaning “giving generous pay and benefits to unionized public employees”.
Witness the flailing wingnut. This is exactly the mindset we have to bury in an avalanche of vociferous criticism, or the fruits of this kind of abject stupidity will bury us.
| 152 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:24:35am |
You are going to hear such a howl of outrage from the right wing after this. The wingnut blogs are going to shriek like wounded banshees.
153 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:24:37am |
re: #128 barflytom
About all you need to hear to understand how lefties think is the phrase
“…spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.”
So letting someone keep some of their own money is “spending” ?
Contrast that with his use of the term “investing” which he was spouting about a few weeks ago - investment in this definition meaning “giving generous pay and benefits to unionized public employees”.
It is “spending” in the sense that if it wasn’t given it would be revenue that the government could spend elsewhere.
The same way that a company would be “spending” its money if it decided to give a rebate to everyone who bought their product.
Do you have any non semantics related problems with Obama’s speech?
| 154 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:25:15am |
re: #146 barflytom
My point is the dishonest use of language - not raising taxes is called “spending”, spending on recurring costs like wages is called “investment”.
How on earth can you claim to call out dishonest language while using language dishonestly? Doesn’t the irony of that cause you any pain?
The things Obama listed as ‘investment’ was far, far, far more than wages for union employees.
So why are you claiming that that’s what his definition of ‘investment’? Why lie about that, while claiming you just care about misuse of language?
What the fuck?
| 155 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:25:16am |
re: #144 Walter L. Newton
I sit in rap anticipation waiting for the government to tell me what I can do with my money.
After you pay your taxes, you can spend it all on Hummel figurines, and no one will mind.
| 156 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:25:24am |
re: #149 blueraven
As do the seniors under Ryan’s plan.
I don’t like Ryans plan. But I take care of myself. Fuck Ryan.
| 157 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:25:29am |
re: #144 Walter L. Newton
I sit in rap anticipation waiting for the government to tell me what I can do with my money.
Part of your productivity is yours, part of it belongs to everyone. That is the definition of living in a society.
Obviously we argue about the percentage split. But if you think the society portion should be zero percent, you can go and live on an island somewhere and see how far that gets you.
| 158 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:25:34am |
re: #152 Charles
You are going to hear such a howl of outrage from the right wing after this. The wingnut blogs are going to shriek like wounded banshees.
Yep. “How dare you suggest we should raise taxes?! Or keep these entitlement programs when we can’t afford them!? Or go after our national defense?! Fucking socialists!”
| 159 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:25:40am |
re: #152 Charles
You are going to hear such a howl of outrage from the right wing after this. The wingnut blogs are going to shriek like wounded banshees.
We already heard from a few here.
| 160 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:25:51am |
re: #128 barflytom
About all you need to hear to understand how lefties think is the phrase
“…spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.”
So letting someone keep some of their own money is “spending” ?
Contrast that with his use of the term “investing” which he was spouting about a few weeks ago - investment in this definition meaning “giving generous pay and benefits to unionized public employees”.
Letting someone “keep some of their own money” that they earned all by themselves by shitting infrastructure out of their own bowels so that the vast working classes can have roads to travel on to get to their dreary jobs, if they are lucky enough to have jobs to get to.
| 161 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:26:02am |
re: #150 SanFranciscoZionist
Yes, but rich people create jobs. When they feel safe enough to do so.
//
Yep. By buying foreign luxury cars, foreign wines, designer clothing from France, and undocumented workers to work on their plantations.
//
| 162 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:26:06am |
re: #152 Charles
You are going to hear such a howl of outrage from the right wing after this. The wingnut blogs are going to shriek like wounded banshees.
Yeah, but they do that when nothing is happening, so it’s hard to be excited about it.
| 163 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:26:44am |
re: #128 barflytom
Actually, let’s take this apart…
“…spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.”
Yes money needs to come from somewhere. Those people were given tremendous tax breaks - more than the rest of America in order to stimulate the economy. It didn’t work. They now get to like the rest of us - and in particular, the oil and coal companies should have their protected tax status reviewed the most.
So letting someone keep some of their own money is “spending” ?
If it was gained through the exploitation of an unfair system that can only be bought into, how is it really theirs?
Contrast that with his use of the term “investing” which he was spouting about a few weeks ago - investment in this definition meaning “giving generous pay and benefits to unionized public employees”.
The unions built the middle class of America by preventing greedy bastards at the top from choking the golden goose. But investing really means, tech development and infrastructure.
Care to comment?
| 164 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:26:54am |
re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist
Yeah, but they do that when nothing is happening, so it’s hard to be excited about it.
It’s a preexisting condition.
//
| 165 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:27:20am |
re: #160 Alouette
Letting someone “keep some of their own money” that they earned all by themselves by shitting infrastructure out of their own bowels so that the vast working classes can have roads to travel on to get to their dreary jobs, if they are lucky enough to have jobs to get to.
Love the imagery! Very Pink Floyd/The Wall.
| 166 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:27:22am |
re: #138 iossarian
All you need to understand about right-wing thought is that it fails to understand that, if you’re going to live in a society, part of your productivity is due to and therefore remains the property of that society.
Social contracts and all…
167 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:27:43am |
re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist
Obama, as I said yesterday, still has some rockstar left in him.
Either that, or he’s been following @AngryBlackLady on twitter.
| 168 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:27:58am |
re: #128 barflytom
About all you need to hear to understand how lefties think is the phrase
“…spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.”
So letting someone keep some of their own money is “spending” ?
Contrast that with his use of the term “investing” which he was spouting about a few weeks ago - investment in this definition meaning “giving generous pay and benefits to unionized public employees”.
Naw, killing granny by increasing her Medicare expenses by $6,000 when she brings in maybe $10,000 a year is a far better idea.
| 169 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:28:25am |
re: #146 barflytom
My point is the dishonest use of language - not raising taxes is called “spending”, spending on recurring costs like wages is called “investment”.
Your “point” is entirely semantic in nature. You have no point. You have a confluence of grammatical equivalence.
| 170 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:28:30am |
re: #155 SanFranciscoZionist
After you pay your taxes, you can spend it all on Hummel figurines, and no one will mind.
My goodness… I didn’t realize that… thanks for clearing that up.
| 171 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:28:37am |
re: #168 marjoriemoon
Naw, killing granny by increasing her Medicare expenses by $6,000 when she brings in maybe $10,000 a year is a far better idea.
Screw granny! I need that new Audi!
//
| 172 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:28:46am |
re: #161 Gus 802
Yep. By buying foreign luxury cars, foreign wines, designer clothing from France, and undocumented workers to work on their plantations.
//
Stop talking like that! You’ll hurt their feelings!
//The rich are very delicate, and have to be handled carefully. How people this neurotic made all this money to begin with is unclear. I always thought you had to be kind of tough in business.
| 173 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:29:27am |
re: #152 Charles
You are going to hear such a howl of outrage from the right wing after this. The wingnut blogs are going to shriek like wounded banshees.
The record will show… that when the verdict was announced, special witness Kristoph Gavin… laughed.
A laugh louder than any ever heard before… or since.
A laugh that echoed in the halls of justice, lingering for what seemed like hours.
| 174 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:30:01am |
re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist
Stop talking like that! You’ll hurt their feelings!
//The rich are very delicate, and have to be handled carefully. How people this neurotic made all this money to begin with is unclear. I always thought you had to be kind of tough in business.
You’re right! Forget that. Let’s go after teachers making 45K a year instead!
//
| 175 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:30:27am |
re: #170 Walter L. Newton
My goodness… I didn’t realize that… thanks for clearing that up.
You’re welcome. I’m more of a Lladro girl myself.
| 176 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:31:07am |
re: #161 Gus 802
Yep. By buying foreign luxury cars, foreign wines, designer clothing from France, and undocumented workers to work on their plantations.
//
But they’re creating jobs! And it trickles down to the rest of us.
Or pisses down to the rest of us, one of the two.
| 177 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:31:27am |
re: #174 Gus 802
You’re right! Forget that. Let’s go after teachers making 45K a year instead!
//
That’s what I don’t get. They expect teachers to make sacrifices but if you so much as suggest that we raise taxes on the wealthy, you get a lot of bullshit. It’s nonsense, pure and simple.
| 178 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:31:38am |
re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist
Stop talking like that! You’ll hurt their feelings!
//The rich are very delicate, and have to be handled carefully. How people this neurotic made all this money to begin with is unclear. I always thought you had to be kind of tough in business.
That is actually a really good point. The actual rich know full well that their fortunes are usually built on exploitation. They are hard as nails.
Barfly Tom is one of the true belivers. In other words, he is a stupid delusional who thinks he will be rich one day too in the current system, despite a lack of talents. He looks forward to avowing his own ubermenschdom and pissing on us on a day that will never come.
| 179 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:31:46am |
re: #176 marjoriemoon
But they’re creating jobs! And it trickles down to the rest of us.
Or pisses down to the rest of us, one of the two.
Trickle down economics. The urinal cake of economic theory.
//
| 180 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:31:48am |
I bet you $5 there will be a FOIA request for that letter Obama got.
| 181 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:31:54am |
re: #174 Gus 802
You’re right! Forget that. Let’s go after teachers making 45K a year instead!
//
Oh, teachers are pretty neurotic too. Trust me on this.
| 183 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:32:17am |
re: #167 negativ
Either that, or he’s been following @AngryBlackLady on twitter.
She has been all kinds of awesome the last week or so.
Her Twitter fight with Joan Walsh was a thing of beauty….
| 184 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:32:19am |
re: #174 Gus 802
You’re right! Forget that. Let’s go after teachers making 45K a year instead!
//
And who needs educated kids in an evolving technological world! We’ll just hire the brain guys… They grow on trees!
| 186 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:32:53am |
re: #165 iossarian
Love the imagery! Very Pink Floyd/The Wall.
No, it’s just a riff on a comment that Fozzie Bear made, about John Galt going to Japan and taking a dump on the Fukushima plant.
| 187 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:33:04am |
re: #179 Gus 802
Trickle down economics. The urinal cake of economic theory.
//
Oh I have to remember that one!
| 188 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:33:08am |
Man. Not only was the speech in general great, but he really called Ryan out. Dismissed him. As he should be.
189 |
Sol Berdinowitz Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:33:52am |
re: #179 Gus 802
Trickle down economics. The urinal cake of economic theory.
//
make the cake higher!
| 190 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:34:02am |
re: #184 LudwigVanQuixote
And who needs educated kids in an evolving technological world! We’ll just hire the brain guys… They grow on trees!
Or do what we’re doing now: outsource them.
| 191 |
mr.fusion Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:34:03am |
re: #188 Obdicut
Man. Not only was the speech in general great, but he really called Ryan out. Dismissed him. As he should be.
…..and for the first time of his Presidency he defined the benefits of social programs. Sounds like he’s ready to fight
| 192 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:34:13am |
re: #188 Obdicut
Man. Not only was the speech in general great, but he really called Ryan out. Dismissed him. As he should be.
Like he was flicking a piece of lint off his suit…..
Muwahahahahahaha
| 193 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:34:27am |
Is “prosterity” the new pronunciation of prosperity now? Both Obama and this dude talking now pronounced it that way.
| 194 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:34:34am |
re: #185 researchok
Best Obama speech yet.
Yep. This is a great display of his rhetorical talents, but this time with much more meat on the bones. Concrete policy. Lines in the sand.
As I said before, he can make the DNC follow this script, by absolutely refusing to sign a budget that includes any tax cuts for the rich, and that doesn’t contain any attempt to address the revenue side of the budget.
Sure, the DNC has to make a bill. He can make them make that bill.
| 195 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:34:45am |
re: #188 Obdicut
Man. Not only was the speech in general great, but he really called Ryan out. Dismissed him. As he should be.
Yep, he just it clear that the Ryan Plan is DOA and any talk about going forward with it will go nowhere.
| 196 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:34:55am |
re: #182 jaunte
re: #171 Gus 802
The folks some people are interested in protecting are probably thinking about buying 4 or 5 colors of Bugatti Veyrons.
I was going to say that all you need is a red one and a black one. Then I imagined having one in orange. And maybe one in hot pink.
Then I Googled it, and decided I don’t really want one. Too flat.
(You can tell I’m not much of a car person, can’t you?)
| 197 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:35:13am |
re: #191 mr.fusion
…and for the first time of his Presidency he defined the benefits of social programs. Sounds like he’s ready to fight
Again… Please God the Dems fight too. The budget “Agreement” was a Dunkirk. It was very far from a victory.
| 198 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:35:17am |
re: #184 LudwigVanQuixote
And who needs educated kids in an evolving technological world! We’ll just hire the brain guys… They grow on trees!
No, they grow in China. Which is part of the problem.
| 199 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:35:59am |
re: #176 marjoriemoon
But they’re creating jobs! And it trickles down to the rest of us.
Or pisses down to the rest of us, one of the two.
We laid off eight people yesterday in fact, and just like always, it was chalked up to insufficient demand for our services. Nary a peep was peeped about any other causes, least of all taxes. Hell, thanks to state and local incentives — corp HQ lives here — we pretty much don’t pay any taxes as it is.
| 200 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:36:30am |
re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist
No, they grow in China. Which is part of the problem.
In America, we sacrifice the higher education of our children for the riches of a few.
| 201 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:36:52am |
re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist
No, they grow in China. Which is part of the problem.
Well we did sell them the rope they are going to hang us with. Unfortunately, the GOP wants to put out heads into the noose more quickly.
| 202 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:36:59am |
re: #182 jaunte
re: #171 Gus 802
The folks some people are interested in protecting are probably thinking about buying 4 or 5 colors of Bugatti Veyrons.
My bosses all make between $700,000 and $1M and they no like The O. They say that taxing them won’t create jobs and “that’s the biggest problem. We need jobs in this bad economy!” Like they give a shit. Not one of them had to sell a yacht or the house in the Hamptons, but I was barely paying my utilities two years ago.
Anyway, I asked them how cutting welfare, medicare, the environment, blah blah blah creates jobs and they had no answer. Surprise surprise.
| 203 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:37:25am |
Whiny Freshman Republican now whining on MSNBC….
| 204 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:37:45am |
re: #202 marjoriemoon
My bosses all make between $700,000 and $1M and they no like The O. They say that taxing them won’t create jobs and “that’s the biggest problem. We need jobs in this bad economy!” Like they give a shit. Not one of them had to sell a yacht or the house in the Hamptons, but I was barely paying my utilities two years ago.
Anyway, I asked them how cutting welfare, medicare, the environment, blah blah blah creates jobs and they had no answer. Surprise surprise.
Then they should hire people. I wonder why they don’t? /
| 205 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:37:50am |
re: #200 Gus 802
In America, we sacrifice the higher education of our children for the riches of a few.
Those college graduates are too uppity to work for the wages we want to pay. A few years of unemployment and they’ll be begging at our doorstep.
| 206 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:37:51am |
One other thing that Obama addressed was any talk about how he has “no alternative” to the Ryan Plan. I’d say that this is a pretty clear alternative, one that does not throw the elderly and least able to the wolves in the name of the wealthy and powerful.
207 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:37:56am |
The speech placed America on war footing, the enemy to be vanquished an out of control budget.
He focused on the goal, not the political ideologies. He made clear all Americans are in the same boat, all Americans will have to sacrifice and he even acknowledged Social Security will have to be dealt with as well as defense and Medicare.
That took stones.
| 208 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:38:28am |
re: #200 Gus 802
In America, we sacrifice the higher education of our children for the riches of a few.
But we don’t need no Godless education that teaches us that we came from monkeys and makes kids all accepting of perversions of the family.
Well that is what the wingnut masses think. The ones at the top, realize an ignorant and fearful society has no social mobility without education and is easily led and exploited.
| 209 |
iceweasel Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:38:40am |
re: #178 LudwigVanQuixote
That is actually a really good point. The actual rich know full well that their fortunes are usually built on exploitation. They are hard as nails.
Barfly Tom is one of the true belivers. In other words, he is a stupid delusional who thinks he will be rich one day too in the current system, despite a lack of talents. He looks forward to avowing his own ubermenschdom and pissing on us on a day that will never come.
Joe the Plumber Dumber types, you mean.
| 210 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:38:44am |
re: #205 Alouette
Those college graduates are too uppity to work for the wages we want to pay. A few years of unemployment and they’ll be begging at our doorstep.
Until then they can apply for a sales position at the H&M store.
//
| 211 |
What, me worry? Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:39:09am |
re: #204 Fozzie Bear
Then they should hire people. I wonder why they don’t? /
Actually they cut staff nationally for two years running. 100s of people.
| 212 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:39:18am |
re: #205 Alouette
Those college graduates are too uppity to work for the wages we want to pay. A few years of unemployment and they’ll be begging at our doorstep.
That is the plan… it is a market correction. Like all parasitic systems though, it kills the host, because very quickly no one can afford college.
| 213 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:39:50am |
re: #194 Fozzie Bear
Yep. This is a great display of his rhetorical talents, but this time with much more meat on the bones. Concrete policy. Lines in the sand.
As I said before, he can make the DNC follow this script, by absolutely refusing to sign a budget that includes any tax cuts for the rich, and that doesn’t contain any attempt to address the revenue side of the budget.
Sure, the DNC has to make a bill. He can make them make that bill.
I couldn’t agree more. I’d also add he made clear there will; be spending cuts, no two bits about it. When it’s all said and done, he’s a realist.
In a town that resembles Oz, that alone gets my backing.
| 214 |
blueraven Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:39:51am |
re: #203 webevintage
Whiny Freshman Republican now whining on MSNBC…
Idiot woman on Fox says, there is no evidence that tax benefits to the wealthy hurt any other group.
Doh…if you are making those cuts by gutting medicare, medicaid and other social programs, it does affect them directly.
| 215 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:39:52am |
and now whiny Republican is upset that Democrat was “tacky” for pointing out that he did not give a real answer…..
| 216 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:39:54am |
re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist
Stop talking like that! You’ll hurt their feelings!
//The rich are very delicate, and have to be handled carefully. How people this neurotic made all this money to begin with is unclear. I always thought you had to be kind of tough in business.
Ask Trump how. He got it from daddy, and when something went bad he shafted the investors with a bankruptcy. You try to get a loan if you have a bankruptcy on your record…/
I don’t have the numbers, but with few exceptions like Microsoft, Google etc, nearly every billionaire out there started with at least millions.
Any fool can make money if they inherit enough that their personal needs are insignificant in relation to what they have.
| 217 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:40:17am |
re: #210 Gus 802
Until then they can apply for a sales position at the H&M store.
//
If they’re one of the lucky ones. When America has a more “business friendly” environment, we can get back some of those manufacturing jobs that went over to Bangladesh.
//
| 218 |
Sol Berdinowitz Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:40:30am |
re: #204 Fozzie Bear
Then they should hire people. I wonder why they don’t? /
They are hiring people: in Bangladesh, the Philippines, Hong Kong, just not here.
| 219 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:40:56am |
re: #211 marjoriemoon
Actually they cut staff nationally for two years running. 100s of people.
Well, if those people hadn’t been such leeches on the TRUE producers of wealth, they wouldn’t have had to fire them. /
(This is where I go full Marxists and point out that labor is the source of ALL wealth, ALL capital, and ALL production.)
| 220 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:41:17am |
re: #217 Alouette
If they’re one of the lucky ones. When America has a more “business friendly” environment, we can get back some of those manufacturing jobs that went over to Bangladesh.
//
Once we get rid of the EPA and OSHA all of those manufacturing jobs will return to America!
//
| 221 |
barflytom Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:42:08am |
re: #163 LudwigVanQuixote
If it was gained through the exploitation of an unfair system that can only be bought into, how is it really theirs?
Ah, so life isn’t fair, and the government should have some role in producing a “fair” outcome. And your suggestion that someones legally acquired money isn’t really theirs because you don’t approve of “the system” that enabled them to earn it is a bit Stalinist, doncha think ?
The unions built the middle class of America…
It’s not as if they’re now primarily concerned with stopping child labour in coal mines is it ? Public employees should accept a trade-off between pay and job security, not expect to be paid more than private sector workers who have less secure jobs. Unions in the end are just protection rackets - “nice little corporation you got here…. wouldn’t want anything to happen to it would we….”.
| 222 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:42:26am |
re: #220 Gus 802
Once we get rid of the EPA and OSHA all of those manufacturing jobs will return to America!
//
Children back to the coal mines! And to the mills! And don’t you go bitchin’ about black lung or a missin’ arm, or you’ll be without a job!
//
| 223 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:42:48am |
OMG!
Now on MSNBC…head of Texas TeaParty…
I wonder what he thinks about “shared burden”?
Oh and he just compared Obama to Carter because he thinks rich should pay more and just dissed New Jersey. Oh and he just claimed Texas has a surplus…..hahahahahaha.
| 224 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:43:35am |
re: #223 webevintage
OMG!
Now on MSNBC…head of Texas TeaParty…
I wonder what he thinks about “shared burden”?Oh and he just compared Obama to Carter because he thinks rich should pay more and just dissed New Jersey. Oh and he just claimed Texas has a surplus…hahahahahaha.
Somebody take the bong away from him.
| 225 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:43:53am |
re: #221 barflytom
Do you think levying taxes on people is something the government is ethically allowed to do?
If so, then what are you quibbling about? The particular percentage assessed against a certain level of income?
How is that “Stalinist”?
| 227 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:44:04am |
re: #221 barflytom
Ah, so life isn’t fair, and the government should have some role in producing a “fair” outcome. And your suggestion that someones legally acquired money isn’t really theirs because you don’t approve of “the system” that enabled them to earn it is a bit Stalinist, doncha think ?
It’s not as if they’re now primarily concerned with stopping child labour in coal mines is it ? Public employees should accept a trade-off between pay and job security, not expect to be paid more than private sector workers who have less secure jobs. Unions in the end are just protection rackets - “nice little corporation you got here… wouldn’t want anything to happen to it would we…”.
Unions may sometimes be bad/do bad things/hurt the economy in some way, but if there is one lesson history has taught us, its that the human cost of trying to live without unions is a 100 to a 1000 times worse.
| 228 |
mr.fusion Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:44:08am |
TX Tea Party leader going bananas on MSNBC right now. He actually just said Texas has a budget surplus
| 229 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:44:33am |
| 230 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:44:33am |
re: #223 webevintage
OMG!
Now on MSNBC…head of Texas TeaParty…
I wonder what he thinks about “shared burden”?Oh and he just compared Obama to Carter because he thinks rich should pay more and just dissed New Jersey. Oh and he just claimed Texas has a surplus…hahahahahaha.
Texas made massive cuts in January to try to close their even more massive deficit. What the hell is this dude smoking?
231 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:44:55am |
re: #221 barflytom
BlahblahblahTaxes!BlahTooHigh!BlahBlah.
TeaParty!
| 232 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:44:57am |
I’m just happy he talked about health care costs, not just how we pay for those health care costs. And he proposed an actual solution.
| 233 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:45:02am |
I think Obama’s more generous to his critics than I would be. I mean, personally I think many of his right wing critics seem to want an oligarchial society where a select few control nearly everything and the middle class and poor control very little. They’re the real elitists.
| 235 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:45:15am |
Yeah. The super rich never get any perks from “the government”. It’s just those poor “inner city” people.
//
| 236 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:45:27am |
re: #230 SanFranciscoZionist
Texas made massive cuts in January to try to close their even more massive deficit. What the hell is this dude smoking?
Bad shit, man!
/
| 237 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:45:31am |
re: #228 mr.fusion
TX Tea Party leader going bananas on MSNBC right now. He actually just said Texas has a budget surplus
He did not mean that as a factual statement…just an illustration.
| 238 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:45:35am |
re: #229 Killgore Trout
It’s so weird that the factual statement ‘The rich can afford to give back a bit more” is somehow spun into something terrible.
| 239 |
insert name here Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:46:24am |
re: #221 barflytom
It’s not as if they’re now primarily concerned with stopping child labour in coal mines is it ? Public employees should accept a trade-off between pay and job security, not expect to be paid more than private sector workers who have less secure jobs. Unions in the end are just protection rackets - “nice little corporation you got here… wouldn’t want anything to happen to it would we…”.
I’m not sure where your number regarding “paid more than the private sector workers” is coming from, but I can tell you that, as a private sector worker, I was making much more (over 2x) than my “age equivalent” public sector friends here in California.
| 240 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:46:31am |
re: #228 mr.fusion
TX Tea Party leader going bananas on MSNBC right now. He actually just said Texas has a budget surplus
It does.
…
..
.
If you step through the quantum mirror to an alternate reality.
| 241 |
blueraven Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:46:34am |
re: #235 Gus 802
Yeah. The super rich never get any perks from “the government”. It’s just those poor “inner city” people.
//
If we could just get rid of all the poor folks we wouldn’t be in this mess!
//
| 242 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:46:41am |
Stalinism! Round ‘em up and put ‘em in the Gulags FEMA camps!!11ty
| 243 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:46:44am |
re: #209 iceweasel
Joe the
PlumberDumber types, you mean.
Yes… most of them.
I am just going to say this and it will feel good.
How dumb do you have to be to believe the horseshit that spews from Fox.
How unbelievably stupid is someone who doubts that gigatons of melting ice means noting is getting warmer?
How utterly moronic do you have to be to think that the GOP cares about the little guy? Or is fiscally responsible?
What brain damage does it take to think that banks or credit card companies or insuruance companies are there to help you, produce any product or should be protected when they get more greedy? How can anyone think that this helps them or their families?
How fucking retarded are you if you can’t find major nations on a map or think that what they do is unimportant?
How stupid are you to think that sending all of our jobs overseas helps us?
How utterly brain damaged is someone who thinks that the biggest issue facing America is whether or not gay people can have civil unions, that the universe is less than 6,000 years old or that women can’t do any intellectual job a man can do?
How stupid is someone who thinks that skin color determines intelligence or honesty or goodness?
How fucking stupid is someone who thinks Palin or Bachman or Rush is clever?
No, the short form is that the GOP base is retarded. They are stupid. They are mean, fearful, ignorant wastes of protein.
| 244 |
mr.fusion Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:47:14am |
| 245 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:48:55am |
THey’re seriously calling what the president talked about Stalinist? Boy if I didn’t have a couple other classes today, I’d gladly partake in the drinking game. That’s just absurd. Seriously, Obama’s right wing critics to be totally honest are stupid morons by and large. They wouldn’t know real Stalinism if it hit them on their heads.
| 247 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:49:49am |
re: #239 insert name here
I’m not sure where your number regarding “paid more than the private sector workers” is coming from, but I can tell you that, as a private sector worker, I was making much more (over 2x) than my “age equivalent” public sector friends here in California.
I think he is upset that public sector job security means that people who still have jobs are paid more than private sector workers who got laid off.
It’s a very pervasive piece of cognitive dissonance whereby people who took the “get rich quick” side of the deal for years then turn around and bitch about the “steady and slow” folks who now happen to be doing better than them.
| 248 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:50:18am |
re: #229 Killgore Trout
Fox: He Still Wants to Spread the Wealth Around … Rich ‘Can Afford to Give Back a Little Bit More’
What… the… fuck…
Fox has effectively become a tool of economic repression. So disgusting.
| 249 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:50:30am |
re: #230 SanFranciscoZionist
Texas made massive cuts in January to try to close their even more massive deficit. What the hell is this dude smoking?
Actually, I know what he’s smoking. There’s a weird meme that these guys get into, where it’s assumed that any red state has a healthy budget, and they just get ripped off by the blue states. That this has absolutely nothing to do with either whose budget balances, or where money goes within the United States does not seem to bother them—they just like the idea that the blue states are all ‘on welfare’.
| 250 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:50:36am |
re: #245 HappyWarrior
THey’re seriously calling what the president talked about Stalinist? Boy if I didn’t have a couple other classes today, I’d gladly partake in the drinking game. That’s just absurd. Seriously, Obama’s right wing critics to be totally honest are stupid morons by and large. They wouldn’t know real Stalinism if it hit them on their heads.
Actually, most of them would admire Stalin as a strong leader as long as he promised to back traditional marriage and ban abortions.
| 252 |
Sol Berdinowitz Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:51:18am |
re: #250 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Actually, most of them would admire Stalin as a strong leader as long as he promised to back traditional marriage and ban abortions.
and increse defense spending
| 253 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:51:51am |
re: #250 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Actually, most of them would admire Stalin as a strong leader as long as he promised to back traditional marriage and ban abortions.
And strong on defense :D. I actually didn’t want to go there but for all the comps of Obama and the American left to Stalin and Mao, I’ve seen more Maoist and Stalinist attitudes in the American right. By the way, right wingers who hate on elites, you know who else did, Mao.
| 254 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:52:10am |
re: #247 iossarian
I think he is upset that public sector job security means that people who still have jobs are paid more than private sector workers who got laid off.
It’s a very pervasive piece of cognitive dissonance whereby people who took the “get rich quick” side of the deal for years then turn around and bitch about the “steady and slow” folks who now happen to be doing better than them.
“A rising tide lifts all boat, but if the tide goes back down I have a right to drag you down with me!”
To paraphrase Stephen Colbert on the subject of making public sector employee salaries/benefits need to match private sector ones.
| 256 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:52:34am |
This follow-up speaker is doing a good job too.
| 257 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:52:44am |
“Americans unite. You have nothing to lose but your hope and change!”
| 258 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:53:18am |
re: #249 SanFranciscoZionist
Actually, I know what he’s smoking. There’s a weird meme that these guys get into, where it’s assumed that any red state has a healthy budget, and they just get ripped off by the blue states. That this has absolutely nothing to do with either whose budget balances, or where money goes within the United States does not seem to bother them—they just like the idea that the blue states are all ‘on welfare’.
Yeah, I keep hearing that more and more. “Well, the red states are in great financial state! If it wasn’t for all those public unions, sucking up my tax dollars, they’d be running surpluses! We don’t need a bailout, unlike those blue states!”
| 259 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:53:45am |
re: #221 barflytom
Ah, so life isn’t fair, and the government should have some role in producing a “fair” outcome. And your suggestion that someones legally acquired money isn’t really theirs because you don’t approve of “the system” that enabled them to earn it is a bit Stalinist, doncha think ?
It’s not as if they’re now primarily concerned with stopping child labour in coal mines is it ? Public employees should accept a trade-off between pay and job security, not expect to be paid more than private sector workers who have less secure jobs. Unions in the end are just protection rackets - “nice little corporation you got here… wouldn’t want anything to happen to it would we…”.
I just want to point out that this is the language of actual, literal class warfare.
| 260 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:54:02am |
| 261 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:54:07am |
I’m surprised no one seems to be talking about the positive aspects of the speech.
It really was quite remarkable.
Even for me, someone right of center, the reaction of the morons of the right are quite unimportant and irrelevant.
Obama’s speech was the best presidential address in over a decade.
| 262 |
The Yankee Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:54:15am |
How many corpartion make big pretty much exist because the government is their customer: Lockheed Martin, GE, Boeing,
| 263 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:54:20am |
re: #258 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yeah, I keep hearing that more and more. “Well, the red states are in great financial state! If it wasn’t for all those public unions, sucking up my tax dollars, they’d be running surpluses! We don’t need a bailout, unlike those blue states!”
2 words.
Farm Subsidies.
| 264 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:54:26am |
Some getting nervous about the GOP’s war on the elderly….
Some in GOP squirm over Paul Ryan budget
Rep. Tim Murphy, a fifth-term Republican who represents a western Pennsylvania district south of Pittsburgh with roughly 17 percent of residents older than 65, is still undecided. Susan Mosychuk, Murphy’s chief of staff, said it’s a “high-profile vote” that they are “still taking a look at.”
Rep. Gus Bilirakis, a Republican from western Florida with a district in which roughly 20 percent of its residents are older than 65, is “still looking it over and trying to decide.”
| 265 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:54:53am |
re: #259 Fozzie Bear
I just want to point out that this is the language of actual, literal class warfare.
You ever notice that the ones engaging in class warfare are usually the ones who have no class?
266 |
CuriousLurker Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:55:43am |
Dead thread birther troll alert: littlegreenfootballs.com
| 267 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:56:16am |
re: #265 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
You ever notice that the ones engaging in class warfare are usually the ones who have no class?
Wingnuts are always engaging in class warfare. By attacking the poor and the middle class. And the irony is that most wingnuts are poor and middle class. They’re just being manipulated by the Republican Party.
| 268 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:56:22am |
| 269 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:56:40am |
The people who whine loudest about “union thuggery” are the same people who have NO problem with corporations engaging in thuggish behavior. It’s bullshit and they know it.
| 270 |
CuriousLurker Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:57:11am |
| 271 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:57:27am |
re: #261 researchok
I’m surprised no one seems to be talking about the positive aspects of the speech.
It really was quite remarkable.
Even for me, someone right of center, the reaction of the morons of the right are quite unimportant and irrelevant.
Obama’s speech was the best presidential address in over a decade.
If only it were actually irrelevant. unfortunately, sanity can not win the day until this insanity is so thoroughly refuted that it dare not be uttered for fear of being publicly shamed and marginalized.
| 272 |
The Yankee Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:57:43am |
re: #221 barflytom
A
It’s not as if they’re now primarily concerned with stopping child labour in coal mines is it ? Public employees should accept a trade-off between pay and job security, not expect to be paid more than private sector workers who have less secure jobs. Unions in the end are just protection rackets - “nice little corporation you got here… wouldn’t want anything to happen to it would we…”.
They are not making that much money when you compare them to people who went to school for 4 years like most of the better paid public sector people are. You shouldn’t compare a teacher to a McDonalds cook.
| 274 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:58:06am |
re: #262 The Yankee
How many corpartion make big pretty much exist because the government is their customer: Lockheed Martin, GE, Boeing,
Boeing, definitely. Take the recent bit over the Air Force tankers, which has been one convoluted joke from beginning to end. First they managed to talk the government into buying a few and leasing the rest, at least until some sane Congress critters demanded to know why were “leasing” aircraft, only to find out that the woman in charge of procurement was on Boeing’s payroll. Then they were one of only two competitors for an actual contract, but when they lost due to having an inferior product (assuming that they’d just be handed the contract), they demanded and got a second competition, where they won outright.
And they’re not alone, ask the Army why they’re still using M16s and M4s to this day, while superior rifles (most recently the XM8) have been canceled without warning or logical reason.
| 275 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:58:17am |
re: #221 barflytom
Ah, so life isn’t fair, and the government should have some role in producing a “fair” outcome. And your suggestion that someones legally acquired money isn’t really theirs because you don’t approve of “the system” that enabled them to earn it is a bit Stalinist, doncha think ?
NO not at all. What is Stalinist is creating a repressive thought controlled oligarchy who controls all the wealth of a nation and puts it into the hands of a cynical few who repress keep the masses fearful and fed on propaganda. That would be the GOP. As to a system that enables them to earn.. If you meant that someone born into a certain class can get an ever diminishing piece of the pie while social mobility stagnates and the roads to actually earning for themselves are destroyed you might have a piece of the truth.
The reality is that we are not in any system where those without an in from birth have much of a shot. over 40% of this nation’s wealth is controlled by 1% of the populace. There is no trickle down, only accumulation with the occasional tech discovery/firm braking into the big boys club.
It’s not as if they’re now primarily concerned with stopping child labour in coal mines is it ?
Well it is as if they are interested in maintaining a livable wage for their families and allowing American production to continue, rather than outsourcing everything to third world labor where it is so cheap because they do use kids in sweat shops.
Public employees should accept a trade-off between pay and job security, not expect to be paid more than private sector workers who have less secure jobs. Unions in the end are just protection rackets - “nice little corporation you got here… wouldn’t want anything to happen to it would we…”.
What a load of shit. Remember that bit about child labor? Do you like weekends? Do you like having a working class that can afford to buy your goods and keep the economy going? You are a moron.
And as to life isn’t fair. No one said it isn’t fair. However, it is the job of government to protect the citizen from wolves foreign and domestic. There is such a thing as not being evil or thinking that exploitation is acceptable.
As soon as you say such things, you mark yourself as evil.
In fact you mark yourself as repulsive scum of the sort that lived in Sodom.
And no, I am not joking.
Scum.
Who deserves to be blotted out with all the other evil bloodsucking scum like you, who honestly thinks that you earned what you have and that God gave you nothing. Scum like you who feels no cmpassion for the sick or the old or the poor.
Scum like you who sees other humans as abstractions to be exploited.
Scum like you who thinks he is better and more uber.
Scum like you whom one day, Moshiach will blot out when Hashem schects the yetzer ha ra.
| 276 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 11:59:03am |
re: #271 Fozzie Bear
If only it were actually irrelevant. unfortunately, sanity can not win the day until this insanity is so thoroughly refuted that it dare not be uttered for fear of being publicly shamed and marginalized.
In my opinion, they are best ignored. They are all about pandering and self service, nothing more.
They sure as hell don’t represent any of my views.
| 277 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:00:05pm |
I hope people are listening to this follow-up speaker. He’s very good.
Did anyone catch his name?
| 278 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:00:07pm |
That birther is weird. Lincoln? Lincoln was born in Kentucky 10+ years after statehood was acheived. And frankly, I don’t know of any big efforts to get GOldwater knocked off the ballot because of him being born in a then therritory and furthermore, Obama himself supported making the children of military members ala McCain born on military bases in foreign countries having hte same constituional eligibility as kids born in the geographical US. His reward? Oh that’s right. The fuckheads on the right accused him of doing this only to cover his own bases and to draw attention to McCain’s situation. Fucking fuckers.
| 279 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:00:16pm |
re: #270 CuriousLurker
Heh. Indeed.
Going back into lurk mode now…
Sure….lurk…..see if I care.
//
Nice to have you back, even in lurk mode.
| 282 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:01:41pm |
re: #275 LudwigVanQuixote
Scum like you whom one day, Moshiach will blot out when Hashem schects the yetzer ha ra.
Which means that when the Anointed One arrives, the inclination to do evil will be removed, and all humans will achieve their true potential.
It doesn’t mean Jesus will return to torture and kill everybody that I don’t like.
| 283 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:01:49pm |
Ed Morrisey….
If it was possible to fail to meet the already-low expectations set for this speech beforehand, Obama managed to do it. Not only did Obama fail to resurrect his own deficit commission’s plan, he offered nothing specific in response to the specifics Paul Ryan and the GOP have already laid on the table. It’s almost impossible to present a substantive criticism of the proposal because it contains nothing substantive, an impression that more and more people have of this White House.
| 284 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:02:14pm |
Well, the problem is these people comprise a large part of the GOP electorate. These are the people who are voting and nominating the crazies. I for one would love to see more rational right of center people in the Republcian Party and I know there are some left but their voices are drowned out by the loony toons by and large. Look at my own district here. We went from having a reasonable moderate Republican in Tom Davis as the Republican candidate to a nut like Keith Finian.
| 285 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:02:40pm |
re: #280 jaunte
To the NuGOP, Eisenhower = Lenin.
FDR let the Japanese Pearl Harbor so he could have an excuse to get us involved in WW2.
Actually heard that a few times.
| 286 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:02:50pm |
re: #276 researchok
In my opinion, they are best ignored. They are all about pandering and self service, nothing more.
They sure as hell don’t represent any of my views.
This won’t go away until sane conservatives get angry, and make themselves heard. Otherwise there is no political risk for the idiots pushing the kind of garbage Ryan is pushing. Why should they care what the left thinks? The left would never vote for them anyway.
This will not and can not stop until enough of the right pushes back. People like myself aren’t “real Americans” anyway. Why should they listen to me?
| 287 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:02:51pm |
re: #283 Killgore Trout
Ed Morrisey…
Hey Ed, here’s a few tic tacs, should help get the smell (and taste) of that bullshit out of your mouth.
| 288 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:02:51pm |
re: #283 Killgore Trout
I love this part “an impression that more and more people have of this White House”.
When in doubt, claim that ‘more and more’ people agree with you.
| 289 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:02:56pm |
| 290 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:03:13pm |
| 291 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:03:36pm |
re: #283 Killgore Trout
Ed Morrisey…
Clueless. Obama’s not going to be specific in a speech. No president was ever specific on these issues when giving a speech. Are they really that stupid?
| 292 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:03:38pm |
| 293 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:03:52pm |
re: #290 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And a hippy, with his EPA and “endangered species”.
and a feminazi- Title IX, appointed many women to important positions, and came very close to putting one on the court.
| 294 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:04:14pm |
re: #291 Gus 802
Clueless. Obama’s not going to be specific in a speech. No president was ever specific on these issues when giving a speech. Are they really that stupid?
Short answer, yes.
Long answer, yes.
| 295 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:04:15pm |
re: #288 Obdicut
I love this part “an impression that more and more people have of this White House”.
When in doubt, claim that ‘more and more’ people agree with you.
“Some people say.”
| 296 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:04:54pm |
| 297 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:04:56pm |
re: #286 Fozzie Bear
This won’t go away until sane conservatives get angry, and make themselves heard. Otherwise there is no political risk for the idiots pushing the kind of garbage Ryan is pushing. Why should they care what the left thinks? The left would never vote for them anyway.
This will not and can not stop until enough of the right pushes back. People like myself aren’t “real Americans” anyway. Why should they listen to me?
I hear you, but I’ll let you in on something.
A lot more conservatives are share my views than those of of the nut jobs.
It’s always like that, be they left or right. The center is always pretty reasonable.
The loud nut jobs get the attention.
| 298 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:04:57pm |
| 299 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:05:19pm |
re: #275 LudwigVanQuixote
PIMF and expansion.
NO not at all. What is Stalinist is creating a repressive thought controlling oligarchy that controls all the wealth of a nation. The wealth is not obtainable from hard work. It is put into the hands of a cynical few who repress the people and keep the masses fearful and fed on propaganda.
That would be the GOP.
As to a system that enables people to earn.. If you meant that someone born into a certain class can get an ever diminishing piece of the pie while social mobility stagnates and the roads to actually earning for themselves are destroyed you might have a piece of the truth.
The reality is that we are not in any system where those without an in from birth have much of a shot. over 40% of this nation’s wealth is controlled by 1% of the populace. There is no trickle down, only accumulation with the occasional tech discovery/firm breaking into the big boys club.
And as to life isn’t fair. No one said it isn’t fair. However, it is the job of government to protect the citizen from wolves foreign and domestic. There is such a thing as not being evil or thinking that exploitation is acceptable.
As soon as anyone says such things, they mark themselves as evil.
To repeat to our barfly:
In fact you mark yourself as repulsive scum of the sort that lived in Sodom.
And no, I am not joking.
Scum.
You deserve to be blotted out with all the other evil bloodsucking scum like you, who honestly think that you earned what you have and that God gave you nothing. Scum like you feel no compassion for the sick or the old or the poor. The world only exists for you.
Scum like you who sees other humans as abstractions to be exploited.
Scum like you who thinks he is better and more uber.
Scum like you whom one day, Moshiach will blot out when Hashem schects the yetzer ha ra.
| 300 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:05:22pm |
| 301 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:05:50pm |
re: #291 Gus 802
Clueless. Obama’s not going to be specific in a speech. No president was ever specific on these issues when giving a speech. Are they really that stupid?
Yes.
And you didn’t know this?
| 302 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:06:14pm |
re: #291 Gus 802
Clueless. Obama’s not going to be specific in a speech. No president was ever specific on these issues when giving a speech. Are they really that stupid?
Nope. Politically, they are brilliant.
They are talking to people who would never listen to the speech themselves, so they can pretend it says whatever they want it to say, and Fox, the only source of information for most of the right, will back them up on it.
None of this makes sense until you realize that the right exists in a media bubble. Everything outside the bubble is lies and distortion. Anything that disagrees only reinforces the impression that this is true. In propaganda terms, Fox doesn’t just lie, it inoculates the viewers against contrary facts.
303 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:06:21pm |
re: #277 Obdicut
I hope people are listening to this follow-up speaker. He’s very good.
Did anyone catch his name?
I’m behind, defense dept guy if I can recall tweet I saw.
| 304 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:06:50pm |
re: #278 HappyWarrior
That birther is weird. Lincoln? Lincoln was born in Kentucky 10+ years after statehood was acheived. And frankly, I don’t know of any big efforts to get GOldwater knocked off the ballot because of him being born in a then therritory and furthermore, Obama himself supported making the children of military members ala McCain born on military bases in foreign countries having hte same constituional eligibility as kids born in the geographical US. His reward? Oh that’s right. The fuckheads on the right accused him of doing this only to cover his own bases and to draw attention to McCain’s situation. Fucking fuckers.
I believe there was some effort to challenge Goldwater’s status. Nice, normal political dirty tricks.
However, Goldwater really, actually, was born in Arizona, and no one challenged that. With Obama, you’ve got this demented attempt to rewrite his life story that simply will not die, and keeps mutating. A bit different from “Can we kick him off the ballot because he wasn’t born in the U.S.? We can’t? Shit.”
| 305 |
barflytom Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:07:14pm |
re: #225 Obdicut
Do you think levying taxes on people is something the government is ethically allowed to do?
If so, then what are you quibbling about? The particular percentage assessed against a certain level of income?
I’m “quibbling” about the mindset of people who think the government has a claim on every penny of wealth or income in the country if it can justify it with some programme or other that “helps” someone.
I’d generally prefer that consumption and assets were taxed, rather than income, although that would actually be against my own interests at the moment (plenty of assets, 80% less income than a few years ago and large bar tabs…).
The objection to taxing either corporate or individual income is the intrusiveness of the IRS, the time wasted on paperwork and the mis-allocation of resources because of the rather perverse incentives that complicated tax codes always produce.
A sales tax to discourage spending and (modest) asset taxes, including on trusts, would be better than taxing income and capital gains in my opinion.
| 306 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:07:17pm |
re: #302 Fozzie Bear
Nope. Politically, they are brilliant.
They are talking to people who would never listen to the speech themselves, so they can pretend it says whatever they want it to say, and Fox, the only source of information for most of the right, will back them up on it.
None of this makes sense until you realize that the right exists in a media bubble. Everything outside the bubble is lies and distortion. Anything that disagrees only reinforces the impression that this is true. In propaganda terms, Fox doesn’t just lie, it inoculates the viewers against contrary facts.
Some truth in that.
Lots of people only sing/listen to choirs.
| 307 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:07:40pm |
re: #291 Gus 802
Clueless. Obama’s not going to be specific in a speech. No president was ever specific on these issues when giving a speech. Are they really that stupid?
I was impressed that he got as specific as he did about the approach to cutting medical costs, that we need to change away from a procedure-based payment system.
Funny, that’s exactly what I said.
Obama plagiarized me!
| 308 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:07:50pm |
re: #282 Alouette
Which means that when the Anointed One arrives, the inclination to do evil will be removed, and all humans will achieve their true potential.
It doesn’t mean Jesus will return to torture and kill everybody that I don’t like.
Well said and seriously thank you for adding that.
However one look at Gog and Magog, or any of the later prophesies will show what Hashem will do to those whose avodah zarah is gold. Honestly,they are so far from righteousness and honor they think that their greed and pitiful possessions will save them.
| 309 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:08:10pm |
The majority of Fortune 500s made their riches through government programs. Banks could not exist if wasn’t for the Fed.
| 310 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:09:16pm |
re: #309 Gus 802
The majority of Fortune 500s made their riches through government programs. Banks could not exist if wasn’t for the Fed.
Yup.
And for the record, banks own the Fed, not the US government.
| 311 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:09:28pm |
And defense contracts = government program. Whether the wingnuts want to admit this or not.
| 312 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:09:30pm |
re: #305 barflytom
I’m “quibbling” about the mindset of people who think the government has a claim on every penny of wealth or income in the country if it can justify it with some programme or other that “helps” someone.
I’d generally prefer that consumption and assets were taxed, rather than income, although that would actually be against my own interests at the moment (plenty of assets, 80% less income than a few years ago and large bar tabs…).
The objection to taxing either corporate or individual income is the intrusiveness of the IRS, the time wasted on paperwork and the mis-allocation of resources because of the rather perverse incentives that complicated tax codes always produce.
A sales tax to discourage spending and (modest) asset taxes, including on trusts, would be better than taxing income and capital gains in my opinion.
“I’m “quibbling” about the mindset of people who think the government has a claim on every penny of wealth or income in the country if it can justify it with some programme or other that “helps” someone.”
Who do you know who actually has this mindset?
| 313 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:09:31pm |
re: #304 SanFranciscoZionist
I believe there was some effort to challenge Goldwater’s status. Nice, normal political dirty tricks.
However, Goldwater really, actually, was born in Arizona, and no one challenged that. With Obama, you’ve got this demented attempt to rewrite his life story that simply will not die, and keeps mutating. A bit different from “Can we kick him off the ballot because he wasn’t born in the U.S.? We can’t? Shit.”
Yeah, I mean I wasn’t doubting that occured but the birtherism that we’ve been seeing I think is racism of the highest level. It’s an concerted effort to paint Obama as somehow not being a real American.
| 314 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:09:42pm |
re: #309 Gus 802
The majority of Fortune 500s made their riches through government programs. Banks could not exist if wasn’t for the Fed.
And lest’s talk about oil and coal subsidies or corporate farm subsidies or for that matter endless tax breaks to the wealthy and deregulation of markets….
315 |
jaunte Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:09:45pm |
re: #305 barflytom
I’m “quibbling” about the mindset of people who think the government has a claim on every penny of wealth or income in the country if it can justify it with some programme or other that “helps” someone.
Every penny? I believe we’re talking about marginal rates.
| 316 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:09:50pm |
re: #305 barflytom
A sales tax to discourage spending and (modest) asset taxes, including on trusts, would be better than taxing income and capital gains in my opinion.
Sales tax mainly affects the purchasing habits of the poor; so you’re saying tax the poor more.
| 317 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:10:27pm |
re: #311 Gus 802
And defense contracts = government program. Whether the wingnuts want to admit this or not.
Nuh-uh!
| 318 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:10:35pm |
re: #309 Gus 802
The majority of Fortune 500s made their riches through government programs. Banks could not exist if wasn’t for the Fed.
Who Owns The Federal Reserve?
The Fed is privately owned. Its shareholders are private banks
| 319 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:10:43pm |
re: #310 researchok
Yup.
And for the record, banks own the Fed, not the US government.
But it’s also regulated and administered by the government.
| 320 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:11:23pm |
re: #305 barflytom
I’m “quibbling” about the mindset of people who think the government has a claim on every penny of wealth or income in the country if it can justify it with some programme or other that “helps” someone.
But that doesn’t exist. That’s a hyperbolic strawman.
What people are saying is that the government has a claim to a portion of the wealth or income in the country, in order to pay for programs that are to the benefit of the country.
Do you disagree with that?
| 321 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:11:34pm |
re: #314 LudwigVanQuixote
And lest’s talk about oil and coal subsidies or corporate farm subsidies or for that matter endless tax breaks to the wealthy and deregulation of markets…
Free, or almost free, access to federal lands. That also includes lumber companies. They get access with pennies on the dollar.
| 322 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:11:53pm |
re: #316 Alouette
Sales tax mainly affects the purchasing habits of the poor; so you’re saying tax the poor more.
Yep, it always amuses me that those who rail left and right about high income taxes have no problem with a high sales tax. It’s the whole fuck you, I’ve got mine mentality. The poor and middle classes would be hurt heavily by a higher sales tax. If I had it my way, we’d have higher income taxes and lower sales taxes honestly.
| 323 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:12:06pm |
re: #305 barflytom
Major strawman is major.
Or a lieutenant colonel.
| 324 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:12:21pm |
re: #305 barflytom
The reason GOP types like sales taxes is because the wealthy consume basic goods at the same rate as the poor, so in the end the poor pay more money.
Like I said, you are scum.
Let me be clear. Evil scum.
| 325 |
Sol Berdinowitz Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:12:38pm |
A “free market” needs a functioning infrastructure: not just a physical one, but a legal infrastructure, and one that ensures that the workforce is educated and healthy.
And who benefits most from that infrastructure, from having an educated, healthy workforce to employ and a reliable, relatively just and fair legal system?
| 326 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:12:43pm |
re: #321 Gus 802
Free, or almost free, access to federal lands. That also includes lumber companies. They get access with pennies on the dollar.
And those lands are owned by who? Oh yes, you and me!
| 327 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:13:27pm |
re: #311 Gus 802
And defense contracts = government program. Whether the wingnuts want to admit this or not.
Yep, just ask GE, who got funding for the F136 jet engine, the alternative engine that much fuss was made about for 4 years, despite the DoD saying they didn’t want it. Why? Because the Congress critters who either have GE plants in their districts or wanted to seem “strong on defense” argued that funding it was an “insurance policy,” to have it ready “just in case.”
Now? GE is continuing the work, and will likely sell the engines as alternatives if the F-35 is exported, or modify it and sell it as a civilian engine. And we’ll never see any of the billions of government money spent in its initial development ever again.
| 328 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:13:41pm |
re: #319 Gus 802
But it’s also regulated and administered by the government.
Yeah, but the reality that it is a private entity is rather quite astonishing.
More on FactCheck:
Who owns the Federal Reserve Bank?
There are actually 12 different Federal Reserve Banks around the country, and they are owned by big private banks. But the banks don’t necessarily run the show. Nationally, the Federal Reserve System is led by a Board of Governors whose seven members are appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate.
The stockholders in the 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks are the privately owned banks that fall under the Federal Reserve System. These include all national banks (chartered by the federal government) and those state-chartered banks that wish to join and meet certain requirements. About 38 percent of the nation’s more than 8,000 banks are members of the system, and thus own the Fed banks.
| 329 |
Sol Berdinowitz Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:13:53pm |
re: #324 LudwigVanQuixote
The reason GOP types like sales taxes is because the wealthy consume basic goods at the same rate as the poor, so in the end the poor pay more money.
Poor people buy a car, it is a purchase. Wealthy “invest” in a company car and write it off as a business cost.
| 330 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:14:26pm |
Once again, channeling Marx: The time has come for the American people to achieve what he referred to as “class consciousness”. I.e., the realization that absolutely nothing that the rich have would be possible without the working class. Nothing. The realization that labor is the source of all wealth, and all production.
We have the democratic institutions to roll back the crazy without violence, but the working class has to wake up from their long stupor. They have to realize they hold the wheel, and have always held the wheel. There has t be a shift in culture.
(No, I am not endorsing a revolution. I am endorsing a mashup of democratic processes and widespread fundamental economic awareness of what money really is, and from whence it gains its value. We don’t need socialism, we just need a progressive tax code, a population that understands its value, and that the rich most certainly do not share the same interests as labor.)
| 331 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:14:46pm |
re: #323 Varek Raith
Major strawman is major.
Or a lieutenant colonel.
No, you’re think lieutenant commander, the Navy designation for an 0-4. Lieutenant Col is an 0-5.
| 332 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:15:38pm |
re: #311 Gus 802
And defense contracts = government program. Whether the wingnuts want to admit this or not.
Why yes they do.. Would you believe the military is a government agency (well several government agencies)!
Of course they only like that as part of the money chain. Actually caring about soldiers enough to not deploy them on fools errands or see to it they have body armor or enough ammo is beneath the radar of the GOP. Actually listening to the military when they warn about future deployments due to the consequences of our disastrous energy policies is also beneath eh GOP. After all, the military has lots of expendable people in it. So many are brown or poor…
| 333 |
The Yankee Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:15:52pm |
re: #327 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yep, just ask GE, who got funding for the F136 jet engine, the alternative engine that much fuss was made about for 4 years, despite the DoD saying they didn’t want it. Why? Because the Congress critters who either have GE plants in their districts or wanted to seem “strong on defense” argued that funding it was an “insurance policy,” to have it ready “just in case.”
Now? GE is continuing the work, and will likely sell the engines as alternatives if the F-35 is exported, or modify it and sell it as a civilian engine. And we’ll never see any of the billions of government money spent in its initial development ever again.
And the plane they are making the engine for the F-22 is not going to be used in any of the 3 wars we are in. 3 WARS and no use for the F-22.
| 334 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:16:36pm |
To me, a higher sales tax is bad for several reasons. One, it directly hurts the poor and middle class. Secondly, it discourages people from buying consumer goods. Example as a gamer, I’m much more willing to pay for a game that’s 50 bucks versus one that is 70. The very wealthy aren’t going to be bothered by a high sales tax. It may be a bothersome inconvincence but at the end of the day, they’ll be able to afford what they want but the same cannot be said about the poor and middle class. I don’t think high tax brackets is the solution but a progressive income tax is the right idea and in times like this, the very rich can afford to pay a litlte bit more. Warren Buffet agrees with that.
| 335 |
barflytom Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:16:45pm |
re: #320 Obdicut
But that doesn’t exist. That’s a hyperbolic strawman.
What people are saying is that the government has a claim to a portion of the wealth or income in the country, in order to pay for programs that are to the benefit of the country.
Do you disagree with that?
I think you and I would disagree hugely on what that portion should be.
If someone can call tax cuts “spending”, what does that say about them ?
The implication there is that the money is the government’s in the first place, and that they are “spending” it by graciously allowing someone to keep a bit more of their ill-gotten gains.
| 336 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:17:12pm |
re: #333 The Yankee
And the plane they are making the engine for the F-22 is not going to be used in any of the 3 wars we are in. 3 WARS and no use for the F-22.
Not much use for a stealth air superiority fighter against enemies who don’t have an air force.
| 337 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:18:23pm |
re: #328 researchok
Yeah, but the reality that it is a private entity is rather quite astonishing.
More on FactCheck:
A quasi private entity which of course it has to be — I assume. But it was created by congress and is regulated and run by political appointees. There are also federal reserve funds that are pumped into it. The Fed would be nothing without Treasury, US govt. securities. It’s 50/50 overall but neither could exist without the other. Thus, banks benefit and profit from the mechanics inherent in the Fed which was a creation of the US government.
| 338 |
The Yankee Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:18:33pm |
re: #336 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Not much use for a stealth air superiority fighter against enemies who don’t have an air force.
Exactly so isn’t that like a bridge to no where. I mean we are building for a war against China or and Russia.
| 339 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:19:01pm |
re: #327 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yep, just ask GE, who got funding for the F136 jet engine, the alternative engine that much fuss was made about for 4 years, despite the DoD saying they didn’t want it. Why? Because the Congress critters who either have GE plants in their districts or wanted to seem “strong on defense” argued that funding it was an “insurance policy,” to have it ready “just in case.”
Now? GE is continuing the work, and will likely sell the engines as alternatives if the F-35 is exported, or modify it and sell it as a civilian engine. And we’ll never see any of the billions of government money spent in its initial development ever again.
Excellent comment.
| 340 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:19:04pm |
re: #335 barflytom
I think you and I would disagree hugely on what that portion should be.
If someone can call tax cuts “spending”, what does that say about them ?
The implication there is that the money is the government’s in the first place, and that they are “spending” it by graciously allowing someone to keep a bit more of their ill-gotten gains.
Once again DO YOU HAVE ANY NON SEMANTIC PROBLEMS WITH OBAMA’S PROPOSALS?
WOULD YOU HAVE SUPPORTED HIS PLANS IF HE HAD JUST TAKEN THE TIME TO PHRASE THEM DIFFERENTLY?
| 341 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:19:14pm |
re: #336 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Not much use for a stealth air superiority fighter against enemies who don’t have an air force.
If we can’t find an enemy we’ll create one!
//
| 342 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:20:42pm |
re: #335 barflytom
I think you and I would disagree hugely on what that portion should be.
That’s what I said. You’re just arguing about the particular percentage point.
I think it should be set to a point that actually meets the real needs of government, arranged in a progressive taxation system that keeps wealth mobile and increases innovation and a strong domestic middle class.
If someone can call tax cuts “spending”, what does that say about them ?
That they realize that was money the government had coming to them, and decided to ‘spend’ that portion of their income by cutting it? So on a balance sheet, whether you call it “tax cut” or “spending on a tax cut”, it looks exactly the same: before you did this, you had a lot more money coming in.
The implication there is that the money is the government’s in the first place, and that they are “spending” it by graciously allowing someone to keep a bit more of their ill-gotten gains.
If you’re paranoid, sure.
Again: How can you pretend that you’re worried about this political use of language when you did exactly the same thing in your first post, calling all of Obama’s investments simply spending on union jobs?
Doesn’t being an obvious hypocrite in a single post bug you?
| 343 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:20:43pm |
re: #335 barflytom
I think you and I would disagree hugely on what that portion should be.
If someone can call tax cuts “spending”, what does that say about them ?
The implication there is that the money is the government’s in the first place, and that they are “spending” it by graciously allowing someone to keep a bit more of their ill-gotten gains.
The implication is that if we don’t levy taxes, it all falls apart. The whole thing. And if it falls apart, wealth in the monetary sense is meaningless. The implication is that wealth cannot be acquired at all without the institutions that allow for sufficient stability to accumulate it, and that those that benefit disproportionately, should pay a larger portion of that which they make than those who are just getting by.
In conservative parlance, it is common sense. In liberal parlance, it is social justice. In human terms, it is compassion, and gratitude.
That’s right motherfucker. Gratitude.
| 344 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:21:52pm |
re: #341 Gus 802
If we can’t find an enemy we’ll create one!
//
All those Canadians are massing on our Northern border…
| 345 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:22:18pm |
re: #343 Fozzie Bear
The implication is that if we don’t levy taxes, it all falls apart. The whole thing. And if it falls apart, wealth in the monetary sense is meaningless. The implication is that wealth cannot be acquired at all without the institutions that allow for sufficient stability to accumulate it, and that those that benefit disproportionately, should pay a larger portion of that which they make than those who are just getting by.
In conservative parlance, it is common sense. In liberal parlance, it is social justice. In human terms, it is compassion, and gratitude.
That’s right motherfucker. Gratitude.
Very well said.
| 346 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:22:25pm |
re: #333 The Yankee
And the plane they are making the engine for the F-22 is not going to be used in any of the 3 wars we are in. 3 WARS and no use for the F-22.
The F-22, like the F-35, is one of the leftovers of the Cold War era, built for an enemy that no longer exists. A very flash showpiece that the Air Force isn’t going to risk in war any time soon, reserved almost exclusively for air shows.
Meanwhile, the Army, Marines, and Navy have had similar programs either cut back or killed entirely. Probably because you can’t fly a Seawolf-class sub or a next-gen tank over crowds of brain dead yokels.
| 347 |
jaunte Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:22:50pm |
re: #343 Fozzie Bear
Let me just repeat that, louder:
…wealth cannot be acquired at all without the institutions
that allow for sufficient stability to accumulate it,
and that those that benefit disproportionately,
should pay a larger portion of that which they make
than those who are just getting by.
| 348 |
barflytom Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:23:23pm |
re: #334 HappyWarrior
To me, a higher sales tax is bad for several reasons. One, it directly hurts the poor and middle class. Secondly, it discourages people from buying consumer goods. Example as a gamer, I’m much more willing to pay for a game that’s 50 bucks versus one that is 70. The very wealthy aren’t going to be bothered by a high sales tax. It may be a bothersome inconvincence but at the end of the day, they’ll be able to afford what they want but the same cannot be said about the poor and middle class. I don’t think high tax brackets is the solution but a progressive income tax is the right idea and in times like this, the very rich can afford to pay a litlte bit more. Warren Buffet agrees with that.
But I note that he arranges his affairs to keep his and his shareholders tax liability to an absolute minimum - as he should too.
If assets (i.e. existing wealth, in whatever from) were taxed rather than the process of acquiring those assets, then you really would be getting “the rich” to pay their share.
A bit less consumer spending would be better for long term prosperity, don’t you think ? It’s one of the reasons so many people are broke these days.
| 349 |
The Yankee Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:23:59pm |
re: #346 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
The F-22, like the F-35, is one of the leftovers of the Cold War era, built for an enemy that no longer exists. A very flash showpiece that the Air Force isn’t going to risk in war any time soon, reserved almost exclusively for air shows.
Meanwhile, the Army, Marines, and Navy have had similar programs either cut back or killed entirely. Probably because you can’t fly a Seawolf-class sub or a next-gen tank over crowds of brain dead yokels.
Oh yea I forgot the F-22 has missed 3 wars. But it has been in about 20-30 movies.
| 350 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:24:11pm |
re: #348 barflytom
But I note that he arranges his affairs to keep his and his shareholders tax liability to an absolute minimum - as he should too.
If assets (i.e. existing wealth, in whatever from) were taxed rather than the process of acquiring those assets, then you really would be getting “the rich” to pay their share.
A bit less consumer spending would be better for long term prosperity, don’t you think ? It’s one of the reasons so many people are broke these days.
Yes the reason people are broke is because they keep spending like on I don’t know FOOD or CLOTHES!
| 351 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:24:18pm |
re: #348 barflytom
But I note that he arranges his affairs to keep his and his shareholders tax liability to an absolute minimum - as he should too.
But he openly advocates that he be taxed more.
A bit less consumer spending would be better for long term prosperity, don’t you think ? It’s one of the reasons so many people are broke these days.
You fail the economy.
| 352 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:24:49pm |
re: #348 barflytom
But I note that he arranges his affairs to keep his and his shareholders tax liability to an absolute minimum - as he should too.
If assets (i.e. existing wealth, in whatever from) were taxed rather than the process of acquiring those assets, then you really would be getting “the rich” to pay their share.
A bit less consumer spending would be better for long term prosperity, don’t you think ? It’s one of the reasons so many people are broke these days.
Taxing wealth is a great idea.
The GOP is absolutely, categorically, will-shit-on-anyone-from-a-great-height-for-suggesting-it opposed to it.
| 353 |
Stanley Sea Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:25:09pm |
Lame!!!
DanaHoule Dana Houle
fearfearfearfearfearfearfear!! RT @HaleyBarbour: President Obama doesn’t get it: The fear of higher taxes tomorrow hurts job creation today.
| 354 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:25:29pm |
re: #348 barflytom
A bit less consumer spending would be better for long term prosperity, don’t you think ? It’s one of the reasons so many people are broke these days.
You raging fucktard. People are broke nowadays because they don’t have freaking jobs. Not because they are overspending.
I’m hyperventilating now.
| 355 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:25:37pm |
re: #346 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
The EFV is in the same F-22 limbo
The EFV was designed to replace the aging AAV-7A1 Assault Amphibious Vehicle (AAV),[2] which entered service in 1972,[3] and was the Marine Corps’ number one priority ground weapon system acquisition. It has three times the speed in water and about twice the armor of the AAV, as well as superior fire power. The vehicle was planned to be deployed in 2015;[4] however, on 6 January 2011, SECDEF Robert Gates announced that he recommends the EFV program be canceled.[5][6] The program, which is projected to cost $15 billion, has thus far cost $3 billion.[7][8]The Marines have asked for the EFV to be canceled in favor of the Assault Amphibian Vehicle Service Life Extension Program, the Marine Personnel Carrier and the Amphibious Combat Vehicle.[9]
| 356 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:26:30pm |
Gratitude.
Good times gone but you missed them
What’s gone wrong in your system
Things they bounce just like a spaulding
What’d you think you miss your calling
It’s so free this kind of feeling
It’s like life it’s so appealing
When you got so much to say
It’s called gratitude
Good times gone but you feed it
Hate’s grown strong you feel you need it
Just one thing do you know
What you think that the world owes you
What’s gonna set you free
Look inside and you’ll see
When you got so much to say
It’s called gratitude, and that’s right
| 357 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:26:56pm |
re: #349 The Yankee
Oh yea I forgot the F-22 has missed 3 wars. But it has been in about 20-30 movies.
Yep, I still remember reading one article on the eve of operations in Libya, saying “This will be the F-22’s war debut! Finally get to see it in action!” Weeks later, still no sighting of the Raptor in action, probably because they’re still trying to decide what it’s main mission is and working bugs out of the software.
| 358 |
iossarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:27:12pm |
| 359 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:27:27pm |
re: #348 barflytom
The taxation of wealth is mainly done through the gift/estate tax.
How do you feel about the estate tax?
| 360 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:27:44pm |
re: #357 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yep, I still remember reading one article on the eve of operations in Libya, saying “This will be the F-22’s war debut! Finally get to see it in action!” Weeks later, still no sighting of the Raptor in action, probably because they’re still trying to decide what it’s main mission is and working bugs out of the software.
Its a stealth fighter. If you don’t see it in action, that means its working, right?
| 361 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:28:08pm |
re: #346 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
The F-22, like the F-35, is one of the leftovers of the Cold War era, built for an enemy that no longer exists. A very flash showpiece that the Air Force isn’t going to risk in war any time soon, reserved almost exclusively for air shows.
Meanwhile, the Army, Marines, and Navy have had similar programs either cut back or killed entirely. Probably because you can’t fly a Seawolf-class sub or a next-gen tank over crowds of brain dead yokels.
The F-22 is a nice machine but it is overdesigned and the biggest problem is that it’s overpriced. It is mainly an air superiority aircraft created to go up against the Mig-29 and SU-30. Otherwise sending an F-22 to Libya for example would be like sending an F-104 to Vietnam. I read the other day that some Eurofighter took out a tank in Libya. That’s another case where the aircraft isn’t really matching its designed program.
| 362 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:28:13pm |
Governor Mitt Romney released the following statement:
“President Obama’s proposals are too little, too late. Instead of supporting spending cuts that lead to real deficit reduction and true reform of Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, the President dug deep into his liberal playbook for ‘solutions’ highlighted by higher taxes. With over 20 million people who are unemployed or who have stopped looking for work, the last thing we should be doing is raising taxes on job-creators, entrepreneurs, and small business owners across America.”
363 |
Justaminute Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:28:19pm |
We, my husband and I as well as at least 10 others I know, started our business under the Clinton administration. Paying higher taxes did not figure in our decision to start a business. Our market is the average working and retired American. When they don’t have money, I don’t either. They are the Free Market.
| 364 |
The Yankee Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:28:25pm |
re: #350 jamesfirecat
Yes the reason people are broke is because they keep spending like on I don’t know FOOD or CLOTHES!
No the reason why the people are broke is because they don’t know how to build an F-22 or F-35. Useless people
\
| 365 |
blueraven Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:28:37pm |
re: #348 barflytom
But I note that he arranges his affairs to keep his and his shareholders tax liability to an absolute minimum - as he should too.
If assets (i.e. existing wealth, in whatever from) were taxed rather than the process of acquiring those assets, then you really would be getting “the rich” to pay their share.
A bit less consumer spending would be better for long term prosperity, don’t you think ? It’s one of the reasons so many people are broke these days.
Talk about regulating you how to spend your money. Yeah, all those groceries and stuff…they are bad for us!
| 366 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:28:43pm |
re: #330 Fozzie Bear
Once again, channeling Marx: The time has come for the American people to achieve what he referred to as “class consciousness”. I.e., the realization that absolutely nothing that the rich have would be possible without the working class. Nothing. The realization that labor is the source of all wealth, and all production.
THIS.
| 367 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:28:53pm |
I think I have just had an epiphany.
This really does all come to to gratitude. Either you appreciate what you have, and are thankful for it, or you think the world owes you more, always more. So much of conservative politics makes sense through this lens.
368 |
Nevertires Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:30:40pm |
re: #344 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
We’re all over your blogs too!
| 369 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:30:45pm |
re: #365 blueraven
Talk about regulating you how to spend your money. Yeah, all those groceries and stuff…they are bad for us!
Buying clothing for your family is clearly Marxist :D.
| 370 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:30:49pm |
re: #357 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yep, I still remember reading one article on the eve of operations in Libya, saying “This will be the F-22’s war debut! Finally get to see it in action!” Weeks later, still no sighting of the Raptor in action, probably because they’re still trying to decide what it’s main mission is and working bugs out of the software.
Nah. It’s like you said earlier, more or less. The AF brass will not send the F-22 to Libya. For obvious reasons which make sense regardless of how one feels about the F-22 budget. Right now you want something low and slow like choppers and/or A-10s.
| 371 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:31:11pm |
re: #353 Stanley Sea
Lame!!!
DanaHoule Dana Houle
fearfearfearfearfearfearfear!! RT @HaleyBarbour: President Obama doesn’t get it: The fear of higher taxes tomorrow hurts job creation today.
Haley “for horn leg horn” Barbour is so full of shit.
What employers have realized in the last 2 years is that when times are tough they can get less people to do more work for fear of being unemployed.
That’s why corporations who are making tons of money are not hiring more people…they don’t need too.
372 |
dog philosopher Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:31:34pm |
obama to republicans: Are You Fucking Kidding With This Bullshit?
this is why i vote for democratic presidents
| 373 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:31:43pm |
| 374 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:32:01pm |
re: #370 Gus 802
Nah. It’s like you said earlier, more or less. The AF brass will not send the F-22 to Libya. For obvious reasons which make sense regardless of how one feels about the F-22 budget. Right now you want something low and slow like choppers and/or A-10s.
The Warthog, what you get when you take a huge gun and decide “hey lets build a plane around this!”
Seriously the A-10’s center line is built around its gun ….
| 375 |
blueraven Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:32:25pm |
re: #367 Fozzie Bear
I think I have just had an epiphany.
This really does all come to to gratitude. Either you appreciate what you have, and are thankful for it, or you think the world owes you more, always more. So much of conservative politics makes sense through this lens.
Kind of the opposite of objectivism, where only “me” counts, and you owe nothing back to the society in which you prosper.
| 376 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:32:31pm |
re: #367 Fozzie Bear
I think I have just had an epiphany.
This really does all come to to gratitude. Either you appreciate what you have, and are thankful for it, or you think the world owes you more, always more. So much of conservative politics makes sense through this lens.
Or the “I got mine, fuck the rest of you” lens….
377 |
wrenchwench Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:32:41pm |
re: #363 Justaminute
We, my husband and I as well as at least 10 others I know, started our business under the Clinton administration. Paying higher taxes did not figure in our decision to start a business. Our market is the average working and retired American. When they don’t have money, I don’t either. They are the Free Market.
If you’re like me, you find dealing with the credit card processors more costly and annoying than dealing with the government.
| 378 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:32:53pm |
The thing seems to me is that many conservatives (not all) seem to think shit just happens. I’m sorry but we get no where when we have a bunch of politicians who take pledges to never to vote for tax increases. Sometimes spending cuts are necessary too and the president realizes this. Why can’t the right give a little leverage on this? I am sorry but I am sick of a bunch of people who act like any tax increase is a personal attack on them.
| 379 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:33:20pm |
re: #361 Gus 802
The F-22 is a nice machine but it is overdesigned and the biggest problem is that it’s overpriced. It is mainly an air superiority aircraft created to go up against the Mig-29 and SU-30. Otherwise sending an F-22 to Libya for example would be like sending an F-104 to Vietnam. I read the other day that some Eurofighter took out a tank in Libya. That’s another case where the aircraft isn’t really matching its designed program.
The contrast between the F-22 and Eurofighter is a lot like the one between it and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, what the armchair generals like myself have dubbed “Generation 4.5.” The Navy has not been sold totally on stealth, mostly because the compromises necessary (speed, weapons load, maintenance) are simply too much. Likewise the Europeans haven’t been sold totally on stealth, but mostly because it just costs too damn much to build and maintain. The solution, as it were, has been to build stealth into older designs, in order to achieve cost savings while putting new aircraft into production.
| 380 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:33:24pm |
re: #370 Gus 802
Nah. It’s like you said earlier, more or less. The AF brass will not send the F-22 to Libya. For obvious reasons which make sense regardless of how one feels about the F-22 budget. Right now you want something low and slow like choppers and/or A-10s.
A multi-purpose fighter is a much more economical and tactically flexible choice for the types of wars we’re engaged in.
| 381 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:33:34pm |
re: #331 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
No, you’re think lieutenant commander, the Navy designation for an 0-4. Lieutenant Col is an 0-5.
Roger that.
| 382 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:33:56pm |
re: #348 barflytom
A bit less consumer spending would be better for long term prosperity, don’t you think ? It’s one of the reasons so many people are broke these days.
All capitalist economies rely entirely on consumer spending for any hope of prosperity.
| 383 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:34:40pm |
re: #374 jamesfirecat
The Warthog, what you get when you take a huge gun and decide “hey lets build a plane around this!”
Seriously the A-10’s center line is built around its gun …
And a titanium bathtub around the pilot, proof up to small cannon fire. It’s not a plane, it’s a flying tank.
| 384 |
dog philosopher Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:34:52pm |
re: #335 barflytom
I think you and I would disagree hugely on what that portion should be.
If someone can call tax cuts “spending”, what does that say about them ?
The implication there is that the money is the government’s in the first place, and that they are “spending” it by graciously allowing someone to keep a bit more of their ill-gotten gains.
as a progressive and as somebody who’s family income is over $250k/yr, i call continued historically low taxes for the wealthy at a time when the budget is strained to the breaking point “being idiotic and childish and refusing to pay for what we want and need”
that’s what i call it. do you have a problem with that?
| 385 |
webevintage Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:34:55pm |
re: #363 Justaminute
We, my husband and I as well as at least 10 others I know, started our business under the Clinton administration. Paying higher taxes did not figure in our decision to start a business. Our market is the average working and retired American. When they don’t have money, I don’t either. They are the Free Market.
If my husband did not have a job with health insurance I would have hesitated in being self employed…but taxes really is not part of the equation.
| 386 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:35:21pm |
re: #382 negativ
All capitalist economies rely entirely on consumer spending for any hope of prosperity.
Wasn’t our consumer economy a big reason why the West by and large was so appealing to so many people who emigrated from the Communist bloc? I mean democratic rights aside, I’d say that was a big reason. A strong consumer economy is a strong economy, period.
| 387 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:35:46pm |
re: #380 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
A multi-purpose fighter is a much more economical and tactically flexible choice for the types of wars we’re engaged in.
Which was supposed to be the F-35. But that’s turned into a long drawn out mess when you come down to it. The biggest problem at first was that it was overweight. Now, Lockheed has lost a lot of international customers. The Hornet is actually a pretty good multi-role aircraft in the mean time. As is the F-15E which can be used for air defense.
| 388 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:36:21pm |
From a practical point of view, do you want to spend your money on one top of the line unit, where if anything goes wrong, you’ve got nothing left, or do you invest in multiple, slightly less advanced units, which are still more than adequate to the tasks at hand?
Seems like a no brainer to me.
389 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:36:46pm |
re: #383 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
And a titanium bathtub around the pilot, proof up to small cannon fire. It’s not a plane, it’s a flying tank.
It’s a near perfect army airplane which is why the zoomies hate it with a passion. Hell with the F22 & F35, cut them and reopen the A10 line.
| 390 |
justaminute Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:37:45pm |
re: #377 wrenchwench
If you’re like me, you find dealing with the credit card processors more costly and annoying than dealing with the government.
That is the truth. About 48% pay with their bankcards now.
| 391 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:37:47pm |
re: #386 HappyWarrior
Wasn’t our consumer economy a big reason why the West by and large was so appealing to so many people who emigrated from the Communist bloc? I mean democratic rights aside, I’d say that was a big reason. A strong consumer economy is a strong economy, period.
Yep, which is what ultimately brought down the USSR. They had spent decades shoveling billions yearly into defense spending, while the average Soviet had no access to more than the most basic of modern amenities. When the boys in the Kremlin started to notice that they were losing the ideological war due to the West’s wealth of consumer goods, they tried to match it by investing in such goods for the common man.
A decade later, the wall came tumblin’ down.
| 392 |
jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:38:35pm |
re: #389 wlewisiii
It’s a near perfect army airplane which is why the zoomies hate it with a passion. Hell with the F22 & F35, cut them and reopen the A10 line.
The A-10, it’s ugly as sin (hence the name Warthog) it’s not going to go supersonic while people ooh and ahh, it’s not going to do a fancy little barrel roll for your amusement, its not going to dog fight, it’s going to show up, f*** up the shit of everyone on the bad guys side on the ground, and then it’ll go home.
| 393 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:39:23pm |
re: #392 jamesfirecat
The A-10, it’s ugly as sin (hence the name Warthog) it’s not going to go supersonic while people ooh and ahh, it’s not going to do a fancy little barrel roll for your amusement, its not going to dog fight, it’s going to show up, f*** up the shit of everyone on the bad guys side on the ground, and then it’ll go home.
Actually, they’re pretty good for barrel rolls.
| 394 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:39:47pm |
re: #391 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yep, which is what ultimately brought down the USSR. They had spent decades shoveling billions yearly into defense spending, while the average Soviet had no access to more than the most basic of modern amenities. When the boys in the Kremlin started to notice that they were losing the ideological war due to the West’s wealth of consumer goods, they tried to match it by investing in such goods for the common man.
A decade later, the wall came tumblin’ down.
Yeah, it’s been a while since I’ve read about the East during the Cold War but I remember reading in How We Survived Communism and Even Laughed about how the crippling lack of consumer goods was a big reason why people grew dissatifised with Communism.
| 395 |
blueraven Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:40:00pm |
| 396 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:40:08pm |
re: #363 Justaminute
I’m a small business owner. I’d actually like to see taxes raised as far down as my level (well under $250,000). I can afford it. I’d love, however, for the extremely complex tax code to get reformed sot hat my business taxes were easier to calculate. I waste a lot of time, and it’s clear the exemptions can be gamed easily.
| 397 |
The Yankee Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:40:12pm |
re: #382 negativ
All capitalist economies rely entirely on consumer spending for any hope of prosperity.
Well the American economy of the last maybe 20 yearre: #389 wlewisiii
It’s a near perfect army airplane which is why the zoomies hate it with a passion. Hell with the F22 & F35, cut them and reopen the A10 line.
I heard that they were going to retire the fleet but that was in the 90’s seems like they might of changed their minds about the A-10.
| 398 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:40:29pm |
re: #393 Gus 802
Actually, they’re pretty good for barrel rolls.
Can we get it to go VTOL like the Cobra Rattler?
/
| 399 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:41:04pm |
re: #393 Gus 802
Actually, they’re pretty good for barrel rolls.
I love the gun.
Has a nice “FUCK YOU” ring to it.
Youtube Video
| 400 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:41:52pm |
re: #387 Gus 802
Which was supposed to be the F-35. But that’s turned into a long drawn out mess when you come down to it. The biggest problem at first was that it was overweight. Now, Lockheed has lost a lot of international customers. The Hornet is actually a pretty good multi-role aircraft in the mean time. As is the F-15E which can be used for air defense.
The F-35 is the Aardvark II, it’s an Air Force plane trying to masquerade as something it’s not, which is a Navy bomb truck or a Marine jump jet.
| 401 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:43:38pm |
re: #397 The Yankee
Well the American economy of the last maybe 20 yearre: #389 wlewisiii
I heard that they were going to retire the fleet but that was in the 90’s seems like they might of changed their minds about the A-10.
The A-10 is too useful for it to be retired at this point without a replacement model fielded.
| 402 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:44:01pm |
| 403 |
The Yankee Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:44:29pm |
re: #387 Gus 802
Which was supposed to be the F-35. But that’s turned into a long drawn out mess when you come down to it. The biggest problem at first was that it was overweight. Now, Lockheed has lost a lot of international customers. The Hornet is actually a pretty good multi-role aircraft in the mean time. As is the F-15E which can be used for air defense.
I heard that the Prime Minister is getting thrown out partly because of mis-leading people on purchasing the F-35, about how much it will actually cost.
| 404 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:45:03pm |
re: #394 HappyWarrior
Yeah, it’s been a while since I’ve read about the East during the Cold War but I remember reading in How We Survived Communism and Even Laughed about how the crippling lack of consumer goods was a big reason why people grew dissatifised with Communism.
Yeah, it was a sharp contrast in the East and West. In the East, if you wanted a car, you went to one of the handful of state-owned auto manufacturers, you put down your money, and you were added to the waiting list that stretched anywhere from months to years. The only way you walked away the same day with a new car is if you were a rich party member or a politician.
In the West, if you wanted a car, you went to one of the private auto dealerships, either with cash in hand or a bank loan, picked out the car you wanted, and drove away the same day. Even if it was the most basic model, it was still yours from the moment you signed on the dotted line.
| 405 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:46:06pm |
re: #397 The Yankee
Well the American economy of the last maybe 20 yearre: #389 wlewisiii
I heard that they were going to retire the fleet but that was in the 90’s seems like they might of changed their minds about the A-10.
The Air Force has been trying to kill the A-10 for years, but they have no real alternative in stock to replace it. The most fanciful idea I heard was the suggestion that they’d slap a 30mm gun pod on F-16 for such missions. They’re now talking about doing the same with the F-35, but that’s even more laughable.
| 406 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:47:18pm |
Every few years, designers try to come up with “The Perfect Air Combat Plane”, but somehow completely disregard how wars are actually fought. Its the same great logic which led the the F-4 Phantom being designed without cannons because “they would no longer be needed”.
| 407 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:47:21pm |
re: #405 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
The Air Force has been trying to kill the A-10 for years, but they have no real alternative in stock to replace it. The most fanciful idea I heard was the suggestion that they’d slap a 30mm gun pod on F-16 for such missions. They’re now talking about doing the same with the F-35, but that’s even more laughable.
Gun pod? What the hell is that an F-4J? Watch it shake, rattle and roll on the hard points. Flaying all over the place and missing the target.
| 408 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:47:28pm |
The problem with the DoD is that they stick too many fancy, ie $$$, advanced toys on designs. They become so expensive that we can only purchase a handful.
| 409 |
barflytom Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:47:38pm |
re: #359 Obdicut
The taxation of wealth is mainly done through the gift/estate tax.
How do you feel about the estate tax?
It’s rather arbitrary, to say the least.
If I was re-writing the tax code from scratch, I’d drop it, and tax assets over “X” amount at a very small annual rate, like 1%, which would raise several hundred billions depending on how exactly it was structured, and on how much money left the country to avoid it.
I think you’d also get a lot of capital coming in though, if the capital gains tax was zero, and that would be taxed at the rate of say 1% or so annually.
Then I’d replace income, corporate and capital gains taxes with a national sales tax.
I’d also drastically reduce the scope of SS, medicare etc which just seem to me to be very inefficient transfer payments which shuffle money around among basically the same people.
I just can’t see why Federal spending needs to be 25 % or so of GDP.
None of it gonna happen of course, and the reality is that if, say, a VAT was introduced, we’d be stuck with that in addition to, rather than instead of, the current tax system.
| 410 |
blueraven Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:47:44pm |
OT Rebels hijack Gadhafi cell phone network.
411 |
prairiefire Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:48:00pm |
Obama finally voiced his opinions on the budget battle today. The likelihood of reaching those goals ~ who knows.
It’s a bit vague.
| 412 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:48:24pm |
re: #408 Varek Raith
The problem with the DoD is that they stick too many fancy, ie $$$, advanced toys on designs. They become so expensive that we can only purchase a handful.
Apparently they never adhere to the K.I.S.S. principle.
| 414 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:49:29pm |
re: #409 barflytom
It’s rather arbitrary, to say the least.
How is it arbitrary? I thought you liked taxes on wealth. It’s a tax on wealth.
I just can’t see why Federal spending needs to be 25 % or so of GDP.
See, this is the thing. Spending needs to be whatever it needs to be in order to address the actual problems we have. People who think of it in terms of percentages confuse me. The goal shouldn’t be figuring out how much we want to spend, it should be figuring out what we need to do.
Like combat AGW, which is going to take a fuckton of government spending.
| 415 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:49:56pm |
re: #409 barflytom
I’d also drastically reduce the scope of SS, medicare etc which just seem to me to be very inefficient transfer payments which shuffle money around among basically the same people.
Yes, a very inefficient system of using the poor as mules to transfer cash to Big Pharma and the insurance companies.
| 416 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:49:57pm |
re: #412 Gus 802
Apparently they never adhere to the K.I.S.S. principle.
I’m a numbers guy. We put too few eggs in the basket.
| 417 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:50:07pm |
re: #412 Gus 802
Apparently they never adhere to the K.I.S.S. principle.
White makeup and fireworks?
| 418 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:50:22pm |
| 420 |
justaminute Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:51:38pm |
re: #396 Obdicut
I’m a small business owner. I’d actually like to see taxes raised as far down as my level (well under $250,000). I can afford it. I’d love, however, for the extremely complex tax code to get reformed sot hat my business taxes were easier to calculate. I waste a lot of time, and it’s clear the exemptions can be gamed easily.
Our taxes are done by an accountant/lawyer. We also have a firm that does our payroll. They are well worth the money. But I know you have to be able to afford to hire them in the first place. That is why I think accounting should be required in high school and a required basic subject in college.
The only time our taxes actually decrease is when we spend money on our business. Remodeling a restaurant is a huge expense, sometimes you have to close to accomplish it. It’s painful when taxes are due on personal on April 15 and your quarterlies are due for the business.
| 421 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:51:43pm |
re: #419 Gus 802
Scare the enemy?
//
Obama Axes Pentagon Plan To Build Billion Dollar Tank In Shape Of Dragon
| 422 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:52:04pm |
re: #418 negativ
That thing sounds like what I imagine Cthulhu would sound like.
Yeah, it even sounds scary. But damn. Seeing that ammo hit so close is nothing like observing it from afar. That will mess you up rather quick.
| 423 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:52:09pm |
| 424 |
The Yankee Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:52:14pm |
re: #415 Alouette
Yes, a very inefficient system of using the poor as mules to transfer cash to Big Pharma and the insurance companies.
That is what Obama should start saying over and over again. Trickle up economics. Like it or not what ever money the old and poor gets always ends up in the hands of the rich.
| 425 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:52:38pm |
re: #65 Fozzie Bear
Ok I read the speech, and I am most pleased. He is saying exactly what I have been screaming for years.
I take back about half my cynicism regarding this presidency that I expressed yesterday.
Maybe we shouldn’t go emo and slash our wrists at the drop of a hat next time?
426 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:52:55pm |
re: #414 Obdicut
Do you mean a metric “fuckton”, Harbour “fuckton” or a short “fuckton”?
| 427 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:53:17pm |
How about a helicopter with huge speakers that plays the sound of a GAU-8 over enemy territory?
//
| 429 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:54:23pm |
re: #425 recusancy
Maybe we shouldn’t go emo and slash our wrists at the drop of a hat next time?
I still think it took him WAY too long to make the points he made in the speech today. I still think it means precisely nothing if he doesn’t also apply pressure to get it done. As in: make sure everyone knows he will veto any bill which doesn’t address the revenue problem. Today was a good step, but it wasn’t action. Now its time to act,
| 430 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:54:41pm |
| 432 |
MinisterO Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:55:38pm |
re: #415 Alouette
Yes, a very inefficient system of using the poor as mules to transfer cash to Big Pharma and the insurance companies.
Damn well-said. I’m going to have to steal it.
| 433 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:56:04pm |
re: #429 Fozzie Bear
I still think it took him WAY too long to make the points he made in the speech today. I still think it means precisely nothing if he doesn’t also apply pressure to get it done. As in: make sure everyone knows he will veto any bill which doesn’t address the revenue problem. Today was a good step, but it wasn’t action. Now its time to act,
My point is, the people Obama needs to lean on are the democrats. He needs to ride them like a stolen mule, and not let up until they do what has to be done. That’s how he can win back his base, and that’s how he can get shit done.
| 434 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:56:44pm |
re: #431 Gus 802
Clear the way for your morning commute?
/
OK I want Rowan Atkinson to play that part.
/
| 435 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:58:10pm |
Wealth redistribution is only a good thing when it flows uphill, apparently.
| 436 |
barflytom Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:58:20pm |
re: #414 Obdicut
How is it arbitrary? I thought you liked taxes on wealth. It’s a tax on wealth.
Because it can be avoided, and is set at what I think is too high a rate. Some people who actually pay it are getting grossly overtaxed, others escape it completely.
I’m curious to know how much in death taxes the Kennedy family has paid over the years, and whether any of them volunteered to hand over any extra to the IRS in order to be paying their “fair share”.
| 437 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:58:21pm |
| 438 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:58:36pm |
re: #426 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Do you mean a metric “fuckton”, Harbour “fuckton” or a short “fuckton”?
A long fuckton, of course.
| 439 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:59:44pm |
re: #436 barflytom
I’m tired of corporations like GE and Exxon not paying any fucking taxes at all.
In fact, GE got money back.
| 440 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 12:59:55pm |
re: #436 barflytom
Because it can be avoided, and is set at what I think is too high a rate. Some people who actually pay it are getting grossly overtaxed, others escape it completely.
I’m curious to know how much in death taxes the Kennedy family has paid over the years, and whether any of them volunteered to hand over any extra to the IRS in order to be paying their “fair share”.
WTF do the Kennedys have to do with anything?
| 441 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:00:38pm |
re: #436 barflytom
Because it can be avoided, and is set at what I think is too high a rate.
See, this is what i mean. In the end, your opposition is about rates. You’re just arguing about the percentage. That’s because you’re not actually thinking about what we should spend our money on, but about what the rate of collection should be.
And that is ass-backwards.
I’m curious to know how much in death taxes the Kennedy family has paid over the years, and whether any of them volunteered to hand over any extra to the IRS in order to be paying their “fair share”.
Seriously? The Kennedys?
It’s 2011, man.
| 442 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:00:55pm |
re: #343 Fozzie Bear
The implication is that if we don’t levy taxes, it all falls apart. The whole thing. And if it falls apart, wealth in the monetary sense is meaningless. The implication is that wealth cannot be acquired at all without the institutions that allow for sufficient stability to accumulate it, and that those that benefit disproportionately, should pay a larger portion of that which they make than those who are just getting by.
In conservative parlance, it is common sense. In liberal parlance, it is social justice. In human terms, it is compassion, and gratitude.
That’s right motherfucker. Gratitude.
A stable society is a profitable society.
| 443 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:01:10pm |
re: #344 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
All those Canadians are massing on our Northern border…
That’s because they’re cold.
| 444 |
MinisterO Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:01:36pm |
re: #409 barflytom
If I was re-writing the tax code from scratch, I’d drop it, and tax assets over “X” amount at a very small annual rate, like 1%, which would raise several hundred billions depending on how exactly it was structured, and on how much money left the country to avoid it.
How do you propose to evaluate a person’s assets precisely?
| 445 |
barflytom Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:01:42pm |
re: #414 Obdicut
See, this is the thing. Spending needs to be whatever it needs to be in order to address the actual problems we have. People who think of it in terms of percentages confuse me. The goal shouldn’t be figuring out how much we want to spend, it should be figuring out what we need to do.
There’s so much I disagree with in that statement that there really isn’t any point in replying to you. We just don’t see the world the same way.
I’m off for a beer……
| 446 |
blueraven Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:01:59pm |
re: #433 Fozzie Bear
My point is, the people Obama needs to lean on are the democrats. He needs to ride them like a stolen mule, and not let up until they do what has to be done. That’s how he can win back his base, and that’s how he can get shit done.
I think in the same vein, the democrats, not just the politicians, but the citizens need to be out there as a party. He needs our support to carry this off.
Look at what the tea party accomplished.
| 447 |
wrenchwench Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:02:06pm |
re: #318 researchok
Who Owns The Federal Reserve?
The Fed is privately owned. Its shareholders are private banks
Your link is to a person who is grinding a big ax. I don’t trust anything she says about the Fed, based on a scan of her work as it appears on the internet. I also would not trust her for medical advice, which she also dispenses. Another case of the common convergence of anti-Fed and “non-toxic cancer treatments” advocates.
| 448 |
Kragar Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:02:10pm |
| 449 |
The Yankee Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:02:18pm |
re: #433 Fozzie Bear
My point is, the people Obama needs to lean on are the democrats. He needs to ride them like a stolen mule, and not let up until they do what has to be done. That’s how he can win back his base, and that’s how he can get shit done.
What happens if it gets to the point that it seems that the GOP will let the country default if their bill doesn’t pass. What happens if it gets to the point that we only have 3 hours for a bill to pass or we default.
Really want to know something though I doubt that will actually happen cause I think that the stock market is going to move up and down depending on how the brokers feel about the likely hood of us defaulting during the last week.
| 450 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:02:46pm |
Apparently. The “logic” is that if you support the expiration of the Bush tax cuts you should voluntarily pay more taxes. Or something.
| 451 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:03:38pm |
“If you hate them there Bush tax cuts then why don’t you pay more taxes then you already pay!!11ty.”
Dey tuk r jobs!
//
| 452 |
dog philosopher Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:04:07pm |
re: #409 barflytom
I just can’t see why Federal spending needs to be 25 % or so of GDP.
we’re never going to have realistic discussions about the budget until we stop thinking about money as a solid that disappears after you spend it, and start realizing that it is like a liquid, that flows from one place to another
economic activity, and therefore people producing and being able to consume the things they need, increases with the velocity of money, not the amount
government programs of any kind, social security, medicare, the military, anything, and, conversely, taxes, simply increase the velocity of money and channel it into places that we as a people consider worthwhile. if “gummint spending” is 25% of gdp, that merely means that 25% of gdp was channeled through the government this year
the money didn’t disappear - if we paid it out to seniors, doctors or hospitals, or military contractors, it’s still here
| 453 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:05:45pm |
The one thing I wish Obama had talked about: How much money we spend on prisons and incarcerating a higher percentage of our people than any other country ever has.
| 454 |
recusancy Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:06:38pm |
re: #453 Obdicut
The one thing I wish Obama had talked about: How much money we spend on prisons and incarcerating a higher percentage of our people than any other country ever has.
Totally would have gotten off focus if he did that. One issue at a time.
| 455 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:07:07pm |
re: #412 Gus 802
Apparently they never adhere to the K.I.S.S. principle.
Ed Heinemann did with the A-4, designed an aircraft a 1/4 of the size the Navy thought it would need to be to fulfill the mission, and though it had one or two faults, it was still such a simple design that it remains in service with some air arms to this day.
| 456 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:07:09pm |
re: #445 barflytom
There’s so much I disagree with in that statement that there really isn’t any point in replying to you.
What? How on earth is saying we should spend the amount of money we need to fix the problems we have at all contentious?
| 457 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:07:21pm |
re: #453 Obdicut
The one thing I wish Obama had talked about: How much money we spend on prisons and incarcerating a higher percentage of our people than any other country ever has.
Definitely. I’d love to see him call for scaling back the Drug War honestly. It’s a waste of resources that should go to fighting real crimes.
| 459 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:08:34pm |
re: #453 Obdicut
We kind of disagree there. We do have a bunch of prisoners… but we keep them in much much better conditions that can be found in most other parts of the world.
| 460 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:08:42pm |
re: #454 recusancy
Totally would have gotten off focus if he did that. One issue at a time.
He tackled about ten, as far as I saw. Prison and justice reform is an issue dear to my heart. I hope that he, or someone else, takes it up as a cause. It’s a prime example of government waste and inefficiency.
| 461 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:08:54pm |
re: #376 webevintage
Or the “I got mine, fuck the rest of you” lens…
Well, it’s a bit like Galt’s magical energy source. If only, somehow, an economy could allow people to only take, and not give…
| 462 |
MinisterO Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:09:13pm |
re: #452 engineer dog
the money didn’t disappear - if we paid it out to seniors, doctors or hospitals, or military contractors, it’s still here
Most of it finds its way back to the hands in deep pockets after a few transactions, producing a great deal of economic activity in the process.
The alternative - leaving the money in the deep pockets - produces no economic activity, other than bidding up the price of gold.
| 463 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:09:30pm |
re: #450 Gus 802
Apparently. The “logic” is that if you support the expiration of the Bush tax cuts you should voluntarily pay more taxes. Or something.
I have heard this exact argument made, many times. It leaves me wondering if I am talking to a child.
| 464 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:09:38pm |
re: #457 HappyWarrior
Definitely. I’d love to see him call for scaling back the Drug War honestly. It’s a waste of resources that should go to fighting real crimes.
He just recently pledged another 200 million for Central America to fight the drug war there.
| 465 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:10:00pm |
re: #382 negativ
All capitalist economies rely entirely on consumer spending for any hope of prosperity.
If folks don’t buy, producers, importers, retailers and etc. don’t earn.
| 466 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:10:56pm |
re: #459 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
We kind of disagree there. We do have a bunch of prisoners… but we keep them in much much better conditions that can be found in most other parts of the world.
It’s still a problem that we imprison a higher percentage of our society than any other country. We have a bigger slice of our people in jail than the Soviet Union did.
It’s a problem both in terms of economics— those are unproductive people, in our jails, except where they’re being exploited— and in terms of morality. Prison should be reformative; it is not.
That we treat people better than other places is good, but it’s not as good as not having them in jail in the first place.
| 467 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:11:10pm |
re: #459 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
We kind of disagree there. We do have a bunch of prisoners… but we keep them in much much better conditions that can be found in most other parts of the world.
That’s not the point. The fact is, we do so with more people, both in absolute numbers and in percentages, than any other country in the world. That’s fucked up.
It’s doubly fucked up that so many of those people are in there for victimless crimes.
| 468 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:11:45pm |
re: #463 Fozzie Bear
I have heard this exact argument made, many times. It leaves me wondering if I am talking to a child.
I support more government funding of scientific research, so obviously I should donate all my spare income to scientific research.
//
| 469 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:12:32pm |
re: #394 HappyWarrior
Yeah, it’s been a while since I’ve read about the East during the Cold War but I remember reading in How We Survived Communism and Even Laughed about how the crippling lack of consumer goods was a big reason why people grew dissatifised with Communism.
The Eastern Bloc managed to create a terrible situation—an industrialized urban population that couldn’t buy stuff. Kind of surreal.
| 470 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:12:32pm |
| 471 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:12:54pm |
re: #468 Obdicut
I support more government funding of scientific research, so obviously I should donate all my spare income to scientific research.
//
Fantastic!
Your contribution will go a long way in ensuring that my patented device asplodes the universe!
| 472 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:13:59pm |
| 473 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:14:08pm |
re: #469 SanFranciscoZionist
The Eastern Bloc managed to create a terrible situation—an industrialized urban population that couldn’t buy stuff. Kind of surreal.
Meanwhile, industrial pioneers like Henry Ford believed that the best way to build a business was to pay your employees enough so that they could afford to buy your products.
What a moron.
///
| 474 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:14:20pm |
re: #470 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Oh, I could go on.
But I’ve got a ton of work to assassinate right now.
Prompt me later and I’ll be happy to lay it out for you.
| 475 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:14:40pm |
| 476 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:14:44pm |
re: #436 barflytom
Because it can be avoided, and is set at what I think is too high a rate. Some people who actually pay it are getting grossly overtaxed, others escape it completely.
I’m curious to know how much in death taxes the Kennedy family has paid over the years, and whether any of them volunteered to hand over any extra to the IRS in order to be paying their “fair share”.
Accusing the Kennedys of cheating on their taxes is not actually a criticism of the estate tax.
| 477 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:14:47pm |
re: #471 Varek Raith
“Where’s the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!”
| 478 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:14:53pm |
I think the biggest joke about the Bush tax cuts (and I’m limiting my thoughts to the wealthy) is that a) they were meant to expires and b) the bullshit talk about it creating jobs. Right now we’re seeing record profits by the big corporations, record cash at hand, and record wealth generation by the top 2 percent. Is that creating any employment? The answer so far is either a resounding “no” or just barely.
| 479 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:15:01pm |
re: #470 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
re: #467 Fozzie Bear
Agreed. The laws need to be changed. That is the only thing that will unclog the system and reduce the numbers.
But, there’s the hard part. What laws?
Decriminalize marijuana and decriminalize simple possession of harder drugs. That would free a hell of a lot of people, right off the bat. Replace incarceration for possession of harder drugs with treatment programs. Open those treatment programs to anyone who wishes to voluntarily participate.
That right there would take a huge bite out of the prison population.
| 480 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:15:20pm |
re: #440 Gus 802
WTF do the Kennedys have to do with anything?
Wealthy liberals. Must be hypocrites. Must be. Must be.
| 481 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:15:35pm |
re: #476 SanFranciscoZionist
Accusing the Kennedys of cheating on their taxes is not actually a criticism of the estate tax.
You would think he’d admire that.
| 482 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:16:17pm |
re: #479 Fozzie Bear
Who pays for the treatment programs? They’re pretty expensive.
| 483 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:16:19pm |
re: #469 SanFranciscoZionist
The Eastern Bloc managed to create a terrible situation—an industrialized urban population that couldn’t buy stuff. Kind of surreal.
Yeah, I’ve heard stories about what happened in Moscow when the first McDonalds opened up there. Crazy stuff.
| 484 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:16:34pm |
re: #448 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
because they have no soul.
I thought it was just because they’re in Canada.
| 485 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:16:37pm |
Yeah. Taxes, taxes, taxes cry the Republicans. That’s why they’ve been so focused on abortion, Moozlims!, and gays.
| 486 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:16:43pm |
re: #478 Gus 802
I think the biggest joke about the Bush tax cuts (and I’m limiting my thoughts to the wealthy) is that a) they were meant to expires and b) the bullshit talk about it creating jobs. Right now we’re seeing record profits by the big corporations, record cash at hand, and record wealth generation by the top 2 percent. Is that creating any employment? The answer so far is either a resounding “no” or just barely.
Oh, I heard the mother of all asinine arguments the other day regarding the Bush Tax Cuts and job creation. His assertion? That they actually did work, that there were over 8 million jobs created, but those were all wiped out by the Housing Bust and so we should only grade said cuts by where job growth sat before 2007.
| 487 |
prairiefire Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:16:54pm |
re: #478 Gus 802
Karl Rove et al where a bit surprised they got those cuts so easily. They knew they were not sustainable. Just like they knew Medicare D was not paid for. $400B cost?
| 488 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:18:00pm |
re: #475 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Isn’t that a redneck’s last words?
That and “Hey! Watch this!”
Not just rednecks… Darwinism.
| 489 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:18:13pm |
re: #477 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
“Where’s the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!”
Ah, crap.
Blew up the wrong universe.
My bad universe 2657a
| 490 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:18:33pm |
re: #482 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Who pays for the treatment programs? They’re pretty expensive.
They are a small fraction of the cost of incarceration. A tiny fraction, per person treated per time period over which they are treated.
| 491 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:19:13pm |
re: #468 Obdicut
I support more government funding of scientific research, so obviously I should donate all my spare income to scientific research.
//
By the same token, if you support our various wars, you should have spent the past decade donating extra taxes so we could have a fancier war.
| 492 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:19:20pm |
re: #490 Fozzie Bear
They are a small fraction of the cost of incarceration. A tiny fraction, per person treated per time period over which they are treated.
What is the success rate of treatment programs?
| 493 |
justaminute Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:19:26pm |
Cutting the budget of the IRS by the Republican house shows how unserious they are at tackling the deficit. The IRS was my last job before I became self employed. They were the only part of government that takes in revenue and the most hated. It is time to lose the loopholes and make taxes simpler for the average American to do. But you do know a whole mega business and jobs revolve around complex taxes. H&R Block and others to name a few. The IRS has trouble keeping agents who know what they are doing because the quit after one year of training and go to work at firms. It was always a bad headache and left the agency with many that should not have been there in the first place.
| 494 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:19:34pm |
re: #486 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Oh, I heard the mother of all asinine arguments the other day regarding the Bush Tax Cuts and job creation. His assertion? That they actually did work, that there were over 8 million jobs created, but those were all wiped out by the Housing Bust and so we should only grade said cuts by where job growth sat before 2007.
So let’s hold a hearing on AARP.
//
| 495 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:19:54pm |
re: #488 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
That and “Hey! Watch this!”
Not just rednecks… Darwinism.
| 496 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:20:13pm |
re: #490 Fozzie Bear
I’m sure that therapists and the companies that provide the therapies could find a way to make it much more expensive if it were under a federal mandate.
| 497 |
blueraven Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:20:59pm |
re: #492 Walter L. Newton
What is the success rate of treatment programs?
Not sure, but I bet it has a better rate than incarceration. Recidivism rates are outrageously high.
| 498 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:21:09pm |
re: #492 Walter L. Newton
What is the success rate of treatment programs?
I think this is the wrong question to ask. “What are we accomplishing by incarcerating people with what is essentially a medical problem?” might be more apt, imo.
The success rate is fairly low, but then, what’s the goal? Is it to eliminate the problem, or mitigate it? I suggest elimination is impossible, a fool’s errand, and that mitigation is all that we could ever hope to achieve.
| 499 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:21:51pm |
re: #496 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I’m sure that therapists and the companies that provide the therapies could find a way to make it much more expensive if it were under a federal mandate.
Only if these treatment programs were run by private industries. I’m sure the federal government could set up the treatment programs themselves.
| 500 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:22:17pm |
re: #496 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
The easy way to stop that is to not pay them more. Cost controls. Much of anything we’re going to do isn’t how much we should spend, it’s how we should control the costs.
It’s the challenge, but it’s not a reason for defeat.
| 501 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:22:27pm |
re: #493 justaminute
And all those people who make money by dressing up as the Statue of Liberty and Uncle Sam dancing on the street corners trying to drum up tax filing business.
| 502 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:22:48pm |
re: #498 Fozzie Bear
I think this is the wrong question to ask. “What are we accomplishing by incarcerating people with what is essentially a medical problem?” might be more apt, imo.
The success rate is fairly low, but then, what’s the goal? Is it to eliminate the problem, or mitigate it? I suggest elimination is impossible, a fool’s errand, and that mitigation is all that we could ever hope to achieve.
It’s not the wrong question to ask, because I fucking asked it. You don’t have a fucking answer, that’s your problem.
| 503 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:22:50pm |
re: #498 Fozzie Bear
I’m glad the harm reduction model is really taking off. It’s so much more sensible than the absolute abstention variety.
| 504 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:22:58pm |
re: #496 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I’m sure that therapists and the companies that provide the therapies could find a way to make it much more expensive if it were under a federal mandate.
Who said anything about private entities? It’s time we as a culture wake up to the fact that in many cases, the government is far more efficient than any private entity could ever be, because they don’t have to produce profits. I don’t think it has to be perfect, it just has to be better than prison. Almost anything is better than prison as a drug treatment program, and you would have to make monumental effort to make it cost more than prison.
| 505 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:23:42pm |
re: #502 Walter L. Newton
It’s not the wrong question to ask, because I fucking asked it. You don’t have a fucking answer, that’s your problem.
I must once again express my deepest sympathies for that stick lodged in your ass.
| 507 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:24:38pm |
re: #504 Fozzie Bear
Who said anything about private entities? It’s time we as a culture wake up to the fact that in many cases, the government is far more efficient than any private entity could ever be, because they don’t have to produce profits. I don’t think it has to be perfect, it just has to be better than prison. Almost anything is better than prison as a drug treatment program, and you would have to make monumental effort to make it cost more than prison.
They don’t have to produce results either… once a federal program is in place… it’s autopilot all the way.
| 508 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:26:16pm |
re: #507 Walter L. Newton
They don’t have to produce results either… once a federal program is in place… it’s autopilot all the way.
Good thing the penal system isn’t a federal program.
| 509 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:26:41pm |
Can we fix it by legalizing drugs, offering drug treatment programs and drug testing folks who get government assistance.
Cut them off if they fail the drug tests?
| 510 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:30:07pm |
re: #509 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Crap. Everyone left.
| 511 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:30:14pm |
re: #509 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Can we fix it by legalizing drugs, offering drug treatment programs and drug testing folks who get government assistance.
Cut them off if they fail the drug tests?
Then that would have to apply for any and all government assistance. Getting an SBA loan? Get drug tested. Getting a farm subsidy? Get drug tested. Heck, we’d have drug testing all over the place if it wasn’t for… Meanwhile, America drinks like a fish… Sometimes I think we should just let Darwin take over.
| 512 |
justaminute Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:30:28pm |
re: #509 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Can we fix it by legalizing drugs, offering drug treatment programs and drug testing folks who get government assistance.
Cut them off if they fail the drug tests?
Do you suggest the government provide those tests? A certain Governor in Florida has required that as well as state workers and what a coincidence he owns drug testing facilities.
| 513 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:31:24pm |
TARP should have come with a requirement of drug testing for all Wall Street CEOs.
The trace amounts of cocaine was measured in tonnage.
//
| 514 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:32:10pm |
re: #509 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Can we fix it by legalizing drugs, offering drug treatment programs and drug testing folks who get government assistance.
Cut them off if they fail the drug tests?
For drugs harder than marijuana, I agree. As far as pot goes, it was just dumb to involve the law, at all, in the first place. It’s a plant, people can grow it themselves at almost no cost, and for many people, it makes their lives happier. It helps me tremendously deal with anxiety, and it’s cheaper and safer than anti-anxiety drugs.
I don’t have a good answer for what to do if they fail the tests. Letting them starve isn’t good, and jailing them won’t achieve anything other than wasting money, either. I think all you can do is educate people, and do what we can to give them opportunities which make drug abuse less appealing. I’ve known more than one addict that cleaned up because of a great opportunity. People need hope, and sometimes, cocaine or heroin can be a shitty substitute for hope. I know that sounds nuts, but that’s been my experience.
| 515 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:32:14pm |
re: #501 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
And all those people who make money by dressing up as the Statue of Liberty and Uncle Sam dancing on the street corners trying to drum up tax filing business.
The problem is that Liberty Tax only buys their Statue of Liberty dresses in one length. Fine on the teenage girl popping gum on the corner. Knee-length on some of the men who have the job in my neighborhood.
My husband applied for a job leafleting cars from them, but refused to submit a resume to be a Statue of Liberty.
| 516 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:33:18pm |
re: #501 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
And all those people who make money by dressing up as the Statue of Liberty and Uncle Sam dancing on the street corners trying to drum up tax filing business.
I feel so fucking bad for people who have been reduced to that. it’s just humiliating and dehumanizing, imo.
| 517 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:33:53pm |
Drug testing. Better make sure you don’t eat any poppy seed bagels.
| 518 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:34:50pm |
re: #516 Fozzie Bear
I feel so fucking bad for people who have been reduced to that. it’s just humiliating and dehumanizing, imo.
It’s a job. Honest day’s work. No education required. I admire the hell out of those folks.
| 519 |
HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:34:56pm |
re: #517 Gus 802
Drug testing. Better make sure you don’t eat any poppy seed bagels.
Praise be you, cinnamon raisin bagels. On a completely serious note, how awful for that woman.
| 520 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:35:08pm |
re: #517 Gus 802
Drug testing. Better make sure you don’t eat any poppy seed bagels.
| 521 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:36:12pm |
re: #514 Fozzie Bear
I don’t have a good answer for what to do if they fail the tests.
Incarcerate them?
IT’S THE CIRCLE! THE CIRCLE OF LIIIFE!!!
| 522 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:36:47pm |
re: #518 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
It’s a job. Honest day’s work. No education required. I admire the hell out of those folks.
It’s a way to pay the bills, sure, but seriously, I would rather eat from a dumpster than dance like a moron in an uncle sam costume all day by the side of the road.
| 523 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:37:41pm |
| 524 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:37:45pm |
re: #521 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Incarcerate them?
IT’S THE CIRCLE! THE CIRCLE OF LIIIFE!!!
I don’t know what’s worse. Morally speaking. Some guy on drugs or sticking someone in an 8 foot by 10 foot room for 23 hours a day for several years.
| 525 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:37:56pm |
re: #523 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Don’t get elitist on me. Would you rather flip burgers?
Same pay.
Yes, I absolutely would rather flip burgers.
| 526 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:38:08pm |
re: #522 Fozzie Bear
It’s a way to pay the bills, sure, but seriously, I would rather eat from a dumpster than dance like a moron in an uncle sam costume all day by the side of the road.
Not so much dancing from the ones I’ve seen at the local shop. Mostly just standing on the corner, earbuds firmly planted in ears, holding up a sign and (no doubt) silently praying to whatever deity they believe in that nobody they know sees them.
| 528 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:39:50pm |
re: #523 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Don’t get elitist on me. Would you rather flip burgers?
Same pay.
Do I have to dress up like the Statue of Liberty to flip the burgers?
Actually, I think I would go for the waving gig, at least around here. Less grease, and you’re outdoors.
In an area that was a lot hotter or colder, I might have to rethink that.
| 529 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:40:26pm |
re: #525 Fozzie Bear
Yes, I absolutely would rather flip burgers.
I feel like I can take pride in making a good burger, even if it’s not exactly a monumental task. I would make the best fucking burger I could make. But dancing in an uncle sam costume on the side of the road? I don’t know how to take pride in that. It just doesn’t compute for me.
| 530 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:40:35pm |
re: #525 Fozzie Bear
Honesty ding.
Can you imagine your friends pulling up beside you on the side of the road. It would be embarrassing for sure. But again, the folks I’ve seen doing this? Not sure I’d want them handling my fries.
| 531 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:40:54pm |
| 532 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:41:02pm |
re: #528 SanFranciscoZionist
Do I have to dress up like the Statue of Liberty to flip the burgers?
Actually, I think I would go for the waving gig, at least around here. Less grease, and you’re outdoors.
In an area that was a lot hotter or colder, I might have to rethink that.
Or flipping burgers while wearing baseball mitts on both hands. That’s the worst.
| 533 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:42:03pm |
re: #531 researchok
Have tofu.
It’s good for you.
If done right. Needs lots of sauce, spices… Pan fried.
| 534 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:42:24pm |
| 535 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:42:59pm |
re: #534 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
wrapped in bacon…
2 pounds of cheese for every 1/2 pound of tofu.
Does cheese go with tofu?
| 536 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:43:03pm |
re: #533 Gus 802
If done right. Needs lots of sauce, spices… Pan fried.
Oh yeah.
Tofu is tasty.
///
There ain’t enough sauce…
| 537 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:43:36pm |
re: #535 Gus 802
2 pounds of cheese for every 1/2 pound of tofu.
Does cheese go with tofu?
Nope. Animal product.
Sprouts. Mmmmm
| 538 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:43:44pm |
re: #530 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Honesty ding.
Can you imagine your friends pulling up beside you on the side of the road. It would be embarrassing for sure. But again, the folks I’ve seen doing this? Not sure I’d want them handling my fries.
The wavers in my neighborhood look OK. College kids from the area, and middle-aged folks making a few bucks, mostly.
| 539 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:44:25pm |
re: #535 Gus 802
2 pounds of cheese for every 1/2 pound of tofu.
Does cheese go with tofu?
Or lentils…double Mmmmm
| 540 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:44:44pm |
re: #535 Gus 802
2 pounds of cheese for every 1/2 pound of tofu.
Does cheese go with tofu?
Probably not.
| 542 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:45:19pm |
re: #536 researchok
Oh yeah.
Tofu is tasty.
///There ain’t enough sauce…
Really fresh, braised tofu—oh God, there is nothing better. With black mushrooms.
| 543 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:45:19pm |
| 544 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:45:39pm |
re: #540 SanFranciscoZionist
Probably not.
Yeah. That’s why I prefer my tofu with chicken or beef. ;)
| 545 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:45:46pm |
re: #542 SanFranciscoZionist
Really fresh, braised tofu—oh God, there is nothing better. With black mushrooms.
Do I know you? Who are you?
| 547 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:46:13pm |
re: #544 Gus 802
Yeah. That’s why I prefer my tofu with chicken or beef. ;)
It’s official.
You are redeemed.
| 549 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:46:31pm |
re: #537 researchok
Nope. Animal product.
Sprouts. Mmmm
Tofu isn’t used solely in vegetarian dishes by Asian chefs. You’ll find a lot of beef-and-tofu or pork-and-tofu plates out there.
But cheese isn’t a thing in East Asian cuisine, except way the hell up in the Himalayas.
| 550 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:46:37pm |
re: #537 researchok
Nope. Animal product.
Sprouts. Mmmm
Reminds me of this old Bloom County comic, involving then Surgeon General Coop nattering on to Opus about how he couldn’t indulge in things like red meat, loud music, casual sex, or sporting dandelions (heh), as they were all unhealthy.
Only to be promptly crushed under a falling block of tofu topped with sprouts.
| 551 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:47:47pm |
re: #544 Gus 802
“I’m not a strict vegetarian. I do eat beef and pork. But not fish ‘cause that’s disgusting! How do you know when fish goes bad, it still smells like fish?! ‘Hey this smells like a dumpster, lets eat it!”
-Jim Gaffigan
| 552 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:48:35pm |
re: #549 SanFranciscoZionist
Tofu isn’t used solely in vegetarian dishes by Asian chefs. You’ll find a lot of beef-and-tofu or pork-and-tofu plates out there.
But cheese isn’t a thing in East Asian cuisine, except way the hell up in the Himalayas.
On every plate there has to be the equivalent of a disliked green vegetable, even in Asia.
/
| 554 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:49:17pm |
re: #553 Gus 802
What’s for dinner mom?
Oh, fungus and deep fried tree grubs.
I didn’t climb to the top of the food chain to eat grass.
| 556 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:49:46pm |
re: #546 Gus 802
Vegetarian dishes taste great with meat in it.
//
The best cooking advice I ever got was from an asian tourist when bartending. (not sure what country she was from) “Why do Americans use SO MUCH meat when they cook? It’s expensive, and really you only need a little for flavor. Too much fat and it drowns out the flavor of the vegetables.”
Since then I have tried to use less meat and more veggies when I cook, and I feel like not only am I healthier, but food just tastes better.
| 557 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:50:11pm |
| 558 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:50:53pm |
| 559 |
dog philosopher Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:51:03pm |
re: #523 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Don’t get elitist on me. Would you rather flip burgers?
Same pay.
i did a ton of working in restaurants, mostly cooking, when i was in college. it’s ingrained in my sould
| 560 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:51:12pm |
re: #556 Fozzie Bear
The best cooking advice I ever got was from an asian tourist when bartending. (not sure what country she was from) “Why do Americans use SO MUCH meat when they cook? It’s expensive, and really you only need a little for flavor. Too much fat and it drowns out the flavor of the vegetables.”
Since then I have tried to use less meat and more veggies when I cook, and I feel like not only am I healthier, but food just tastes better.
Close your eyes and imagine a great juicy burger within reach…..
Now, what were you saying?
| 561 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:51:21pm |
re: #555 Gus 802
A restaurant I used to frequent had a dish called, “Three molds and a fungus”.
Chicken smothered with three cheeses and mushrooms.
It was delicious.
| 562 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:51:38pm |
re: #556 Fozzie Bear
The best cooking advice I ever got was from an asian tourist when bartending. (not sure what country she was from) “Why do Americans use SO MUCH meat when they cook? It’s expensive, and really you only need a little for flavor. Too much fat and it drowns out the flavor of the vegetables.”
Since then I have tried to use less meat and more veggies when I cook, and I feel like not only am I healthier, but food just tastes better.
I don’t eat that much meat because it’s a mess to cook. I get it in my microwave meals but nothing like what people have at BBQs. So, I like beef because of that. Except some peoples BBQs smell pretty gross sometimes. They don’t clean their grills right if at all.
| 563 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:51:45pm |
re: #560 researchok
Close your eyes and imagine a great juicy burger within reach…
Now, what were you saying?
With bacon…and pepperjack cheese…God, now I’m getting hungry again.
| 564 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:51:46pm |
re: #555 Gus 802
Street poll test idea.
Question: Would you eat a fungus?
I love fungi. I especially love the black crunchy fungus Chinese restaurants put in soup. Nom. Nom.
| 565 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:52:16pm |
re: #563 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
With bacon…and pepperjack cheese…God, now I’m getting hungry again.
We understand each other.
| 566 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:53:00pm |
re: #564 SanFranciscoZionist
I love fungi. I especially love the black crunchy fungus Chinese restaurants put in soup. Nom. Nom.
Yeah. My brother turned me on to straight fungi back in the 80s. Otherwise, mushrooms are a fungus as well. But I’m sure if you asked people on the street, “would you eat a fungus” they’d no doubt answer “no!”
| 567 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:54:06pm |
re: #562 Gus 802
I don’t eat that much meat because it’s a mess to cook. I get it in my microwave meals but nothing like what people have at BBQs. So, I like beef because of that. Except some peoples BBQs smell pretty gross sometimes. They don’t clean their grills right if at all.
Close your eyes…you are waiting to be seated at the Buckhorn Exchange….
| 568 |
Targetpractice Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:54:18pm |
re: #566 Gus 802
Yeah. My brother turned me on to straight fungi back in the 80s. Otherwise, mushrooms are a fungus as well. But I’m sure if you asked people on the street, “would you eat a fungus” they’d no doubt answer “no!”
Hell, wanna really squick them out? Read the ingredients on a bag of M&Ms, then ask them if they’d want to eat something with all that in it.
| 569 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:56:22pm |
re: #560 researchok
Close your eyes and imagine a great juicy burger within reach…
Now, what were you saying?
I do LOVE a good slab of meat from time to time. I’m just making an effort in the past few years to moderate it, because heart disease runs in my family. While I love burgers, they aren’t so delicious I want to check out 30 years early.
That said, now I want a burger. Perhaps tonight I will indulge.
| 570 |
Gus Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:56:45pm |
re: #567 researchok
Close your eyes…you are waiting to be seated at the Buckhorn Exchange…
Fancy. I’ve been to Ted’s Montana Grill a few times. Good burgers. Really a chain owned by Ted Turner. Which you might already know. ;)
| 572 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:58:11pm |
re: #569 Fozzie Bear
I do LOVE a good slab of meat from time to time. I’m just making an effort in the past few years to moderate it, because heart disease runs in my family. While I love burgers, they aren’t so delicious I want to check out 30 years early.
That said, now I want a burger. Perhaps tonight I will indulge.
You are a good man.
Once a month is OK, given family history.
Now go, eat and enjoy for tomorrow is micro greens and buckwheat.
| 573 |
dog philosopher Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:59:01pm |
i really enjoyed the elk burger i had at this ‘fudrucker’s” place
they have bear burgers and ostrich burgers there too
| 574 |
researchok Wed, Apr 13, 2011 1:59:24pm |
re: #573 engineer dog
i really enjoyed the elk burger i had at this ‘fudrucker’s” place
they have bear burgers and ostrich burgers there too
I’ve tried bear.
ONCE.
| 575 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 2:00:08pm |
Buffalo is delicious, and very lean. It’s a little harder to cook because of the low fat content (dries out and burns easily) but WOW is it good if done right.
| 576 |
prairiefire Wed, Apr 13, 2011 2:10:14pm |
re: #518 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
It’s a job. Honest day’s work. No education required. I admire the hell out of those folks.
On the corner by our house, the four different guys doing that all look around 20. The heavier ones looked like they were staying warmer.
577 |
Lidane Wed, Apr 13, 2011 2:14:29pm |
re: #152 Charles
You are going to hear such a howl of outrage from the right wing after this. The wingnut blogs are going to shriek like wounded banshees.
They do that every time Barack Obama wakes up in the morning. This is going to be a special, more girlie shriek, like when you’re taking a favorite toy away from a five year old.
| 578 |
Lidane Wed, Apr 13, 2011 2:15:34pm |
re: #440 Gus 802
WTF do the Kennedys have to do with anything?
Nothing. They’re just the default go to “rich lefty” family. That’s all.
| 579 |
Fozzie Bear Wed, Apr 13, 2011 2:43:05pm |
My delicious burger is sizzling on my little hibachi, over a bed of charcoal. (The only proper way to grill, in my humble opinion)
Researchok, I dedicate this feast to you.
| 580 |
barflytom Thu, Apr 14, 2011 12:23:12am |
re: #452 engineer dog
we’re never going to have realistic discussions about the budget until we stop thinking about money as a solid that disappears after you spend it, and start realizing that it is like a liquid, that flows from one place to another
economic activity, and therefore people producing and being able to consume the things they need, increases with the velocity of money, not the amount
government programs of any kind, social security, medicare, the military, anything, and, conversely, taxes, simply increase the velocity of money and channel it into places that we as a people consider worthwhile. if “gummint spending” is 25% of gdp, that merely means that 25% of gdp was channeled through the government this year
the money didn’t disappear - if we paid it out to seniors, doctors or hospitals, or military contractors, it’s still here
You really don’t have a clue what you’re talking about do you ?
You can increase the velocity of money, or the amount of economic activity by paying people to dig holes in the ground and then paying some other people to fill the holes in.
The point is that government spending diverts money from productive uses to almost entirely unproductive uses. Exhibit ‘A’ might be paying Michelle Obama three hundred grand a year for a completely pointless non-job, although in fairness to your “money is like a liquid” argument, it no doubt created plenty of work for Chinese handbag manufacturers.
581 |
Interesting Times Thu, Apr 14, 2011 5:51:41am |
Note the kochsucking troll above doesn’t have the guts to address this.
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Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ... Cheechako
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Views: 571 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 5- A Closer Look at the Eastman State Bar DecisionTaking a few minutes away from work things to read through the Eastman decision. As I'm sure many of you know, Eastman was my law school con law professor. I knew him pretty well because I was also running in ...KGxvi
4 weeks ago
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The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ... Cheechako
2 days ago
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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ... Cheechako
2 weeks ago
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