American Taliban Leader David Barton: The Bible Should Rule the World

Mainstream Republican theocratic craziness
Wingnuts • Views: 31,058

Here’s American Taliban leader David Barton, a man who is very influential with top Republican politicians and the Tea Party base (thanks to Glenn Beck’s relentless promotion), explaining that everything should operate according to Biblical principles, because America’s founding fathers wanted it that way. This bizarre revisionist view of America’s founding is completely false, but it has become accepted dogma in the religious right echo chamber.

And he does mean everything. Barton wants to see a Christian theocracy covering the entire world. “Insane” doesn’t even begin to describe people like Barton — and his is the dominant religious ideology in today’s GOP.

Youtube Video
Related
Glenn Beck Promotes Theocracy and Interviews David Barton - Speaker at Neo-Nazi Rallies

(h/t: Right Wing Watch, via iceweasel.)

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261 comments
1 The Left  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:16:50am

Wow! Thanks for the hat tip, Charles.

I never heard of David Barton til I was reading here. What a crazyman.

2 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:19:47am

And I am sure the people who have been so eager to ban Sharia Law despite Muslims making up only a handful of the population don't know who Barton is or if they knew of his plans it wouldn't matter to them since it's fine because Barton is a Christian. The guy's a lunatic. He is exact;y why separation of church and state is a cherished ideal to me.

3 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:19:54am

There are days I almost wish that the Founding Fathers would rise from their graves, appear before Congress, and declare that all those claiming that this was always intended to be a "Christian nation" are a pack of morons.

4 Big Joe  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:20:23am

I'm not about to follow a "God" that was AOK with slavery.

5 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:20:34am

re: #2 HappyWarrior

And I am sure the people who have been so eager to ban Sharia Law despite Muslims making up only a handful of the population don't know who Barton is or if they knew of his plans it wouldn't matter to them since it's fine because Barton is a Christian. The guy's a lunatic. He is exact;y why separation of church and state is a cherished ideal to me.

Oh and politicians like Gingrich pander to this asshole too.

6 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:21:18am

David Barton, No. Barton's Chocolates for Passover, Yes.

7 blueraven  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:21:18am

Say what? He is insane, and the fact that he is so revered by many instead of widely repudiated is scary indeed.

8 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:24:09am

Every American should be forced to listen to this at gunpoint.

/Huckabee

9 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:24:11am

I got to boil some eggs. bbl.

10 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:26:46am

re: #8 publicityStunted

/Huckabee

Agh just agh.

11 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:29:35am

re: #8 publicityStunted

/Huckabee

Thanks for the Tweet idea:

@Gus_802
Mike Huckabee: Every American should be forced to listen to [David Barton] at gunpoint. [Link: lgf.bz...] #LGF #tcot #tlot #p2 #gop #dnc

12 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:29:52am

I knew Hot Air's audience was getting nuttier and nuttier, but when did they get overrun by Birthers?

A hate mailer sent me this link to let me know that Allahpundit was "apparently as sociopathic as you."

[Link: hotair.com...]

13 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:33:05am

re: #4 mracb

I'm not about to follow a "God" that was AOK with slavery.

I don't follow any mystical and mythical concept like god. And this nation, and any others would be better off without their gods. Ever notice how "gods" are some of the most major flash points between cultures? Something that can't be proven, can't be touched or seen, doesn't speak back or communicate in a first person, something that has the consistency of fog, yet this something guides, commands, demands and seeks worship by humans the world over.

And many of use do it. Sick.

14 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:34:01am

re: #12 Charles

I knew Hot Air's audience was getting nuttier and nuttier, but when did they get overrun by Birthers?

A hate mailer sent me this link to let me know that Allahpundit was "apparently as sociopathic as you."

[Link: hotair.com...]

Seems to be a natural progression for them.

I don't ever recall you ever advocating for the repeal of the natural born citizen clause, but I guess any lie will do.

15 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:36:06am

Wow. I don't believe how crazy that Hot Air thread is.

16 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:36:44am

re: #13 Walter L. Newton

I don't follow any mystical and mythical concept like god. And this nation, and any others would be better off without their gods. Ever notice how "gods" are some of the most major flash points between cultures? Something that can't be proven, can't be touched or seen, doesn't speak back or communicate in a first person, something that has the consistency of fog, yet this something guides, commands, demands and seeks worship by humans the world over.

And many of use do it. Sick.

One could argue that plenty of folks see God and religion as a source of grace, mercy and compassion, too, so it ain't all bad.

17 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:38:22am

re: #5 HappyWarrior

Oh and politicians like Gingrich pander to this asshole too.

I'm hoping the politicians are just checking to see which side of their bread is buttered and conniving to have it always land butter side up.

If my hopes are baseless then the politicians are mad.

18 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:39:55am

re: #15 Charles

Wow. I don't believe how crazy that Hot Air thread is.

I think we should repeal the natural-born citizen clause. All it does is perpetuate xenophobia -- amongst other things -- and it's a form of natural born "supremacy".

19 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:40:31am

Ergh. Watching stuff like this makes me ill. I'm just amazed they can't see that the so-called 'creeping sharia' that doesn't exist is exactly what they seem to want. Except theirs is ok, because their God has a white beard and fair skin.

20 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:40:38am

re: #16 marjoriemoon

One could argue that plenty of folks see God and religion as a source of grace, mercy and compassion, too, so it ain't all bad.

That source of grace, mercy and compassion requires a BELIEF too. Unless you're telling me that it's fine to be a hypocrite, sit in church, get all that grace, mercy and compassion but know in your heart that the whole basis behind the show is a bunch of mythical rot passed down by cultures who, at the time, found a way to deal with the unknown.

It's not 3500 BC anymore. You can get all of the grace, mercy and compassion from your interactions with your fellow man. You don't need some mystical referee in the sky keeping score.

21 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:41:37am

re: #16 marjoriemoon

One could argue that plenty of folks see God and religion as a source of grace, mercy and compassion, too, so it ain't all bad.

Aren't those three available without religion?

22 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:42:13am

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

That source of grace, mercy and compassion requires a BELIEF too. Unless you're telling me that it's fine to be a hypocrite, sit in church, get all that grace, mercy and compassion but know in your heart that the whole basis behind the show is a bunch of mythical rot passed down by cultures who, at the time, found a way to deal with the unknown.

It's not 3500 BC anymore. You can get all of the grace, mercy and compassion from your interactions with your fellow man. You don't need some mystical referee in the sky keeping score.

Yep... I'm sorry, I find believers suffering from the same condition that the anti-science conservatives deal with. You can't have it both ways, even though it makes you feel good.

23 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:43:27am

re: #21 b_sharp

Aren't those three available without religion?

Crap. I've been doing it wrong. I've been being a good person for all the wrong reasons...you know, because it's the right thing to do.

24 Big Joe  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:44:32am

My daughter wants BBQ for her birthday dinner. To facilitate that I have the baby back ribs covered in rub, the rum finishing sauce reducing, the smoker coming up to 230F, and poured my first beer. I'm also going to make a batch of garlic knots.

25 SpaceJesus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:45:11am

Image: l8Xr0.jpg

26 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:45:17am

re: #18 Gus 802

I think we should repeal the natural-born citizen clause. All it does is perpetuate xenophobia -- amongst other things -- and it's a form of natural born "supremacy".

We have enough problems as it is. Foreign born supremacy is better?

The reason it's there was basically to prevent a foreign monarchy from coming in and taking over since they had far more money than early Americans. I think the same rings true today, although Meacham believes times have changed.

27 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:45:24am

re: #23 deadletterboy

Crap. I've been doing it wrong. I've been being a good person for all the wrong reasons...you know, because it's the right thing to do.

You can always repent and become evil like the rest of us.

28 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:45:45am

re: #24 mracb

My daughter wants BBQ for her birthday dinner. To facilitate that I have the baby back ribs covered in rub, the rum finishing sauce reducing, the smoker coming up to 230F, and poured my first beer. I'm also going to make a batch of garlic knots.

I would off-topic this, but that sounds delicious. I'm in Michigan and the idea of going outside in the bitter cold to do anything is fear inducing.

29 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:46:05am

re: #21 b_sharp

Aren't those three available without religion?

Agreed... of course they are... as I point out in #20 above. And guess what, it's all the same thing. Supporting a belief in the nexus of the concept is no different than being the wild-eye theocrat.

What is this, a battle between my belief is better than your belief because I don't see my god the same way as you see yours? No, forget that, if you believe in god then you are keeping alive the same myths that fuel people like David Barton.

You can't have it both ways... intelligent, logical science based thinking or folk stories... make a choice.

30 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:46:19am

re: #27 b_sharp

But then I'll be one of those evil gnu-atheists the religious right is going on about...oh wait...

31 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:46:58am

Allahpundit is in an abusive relationship with his own readers.

I'd feel sorry for him if he wasn't such a dick himself.

32 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:47:08am

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

That source of grace, mercy and compassion requires a BELIEF too. Unless you're telling me that it's fine to be a hypocrite, sit in church, get all that grace, mercy and compassion but know in your heart that the whole basis behind the show is a bunch of mythical rot passed down by cultures who, at the time, found a way to deal with the unknown.

It's not 3500 BC anymore. You can get all of the grace, mercy and compassion from your interactions with your fellow man. You don't need some mystical referee in the sky keeping score.

That's fine and it's your argument for atheism and you're entitled to it. I'm just saying that that sort of corruption doesn't exist in all people of faith. In fact, the exact opposite is true for those who "use" God to inspire them to do good works.

33 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:47:49am

re: #26 marjoriemoon

We have enough problems as it is. Foreign born supremacy is better?

The reason it's there was basically to prevent a foreign monarchy from coming in and taking over since they had far more money than early Americans. I think the same rings true today, although Meacham believes times have changed.

I'd like to see Arnold become POTUS.
'I'll be back'!

34 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:47:55am

re: #26 marjoriemoon

We have enough problems as it is. Foreign born supremacy is better?

The reason it's there was basically to prevent a foreign monarchy from coming in and taking over since they had far more money than early Americans. I think the same rings true today, although Meacham believes times have changed.

No. Being against natural born supremacy doesn't mean being for foreign born supremacy. People should be judged on their character and not on something as feeble as where they were born. And yes, times have changed and there is no longer a credible threat of foreign monarchies. Eventually it will change but not in my lifetime. Perhaps it will take 100 years.

35 teleskiguy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:48:01am

I would like to fill my comment space with words from the late great Frank Zappa:

You can't run a country by a book of religion
Not by a heap or a lump or a smidgeon of foolish rules of ancient date, designed to make you all feel great while you fold, spindle and mutilate those unbelievers from a neighboring state
36 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:48:30am

re: #33 b_sharp

I'd like to see Arnold become POTUS.
'I'll be back'!

These days, it's "Ow, my back."

37 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:48:34am

re: #31 Charles

Allahpundit is in an abusive relationship with his own readers.

I'd feel sorry for him if he wasn't such a dick himself.

"You make the bed you lie in."

38 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:48:45am

re: #21 b_sharp

Aren't those three available without religion?

Of course, but I don't believe in slamming entire religions because they inherently corrupt people. I don't believe that. Do I believe people misuse spiritual teachings for their own egotistical purposes? To conquer? Oh yea they do.

39 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:48:47am

re: #30 deadletterboy

But then I'll be one of those evil gnu-atheists the religious right is going on about...oh wait...

Actually, I don't see the religious right going on too much about atheist at all. Atheist are basically ignored by the religious right. You'll see an article here or there, a annual sermon on the subject, but there is not really a all out battle between evangelicals and atheists. For a matter of fact, the most shit stirring between those two groups are usually instigated by certain atheists.

40 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:49:33am

re: #32 marjoriemoon

That's fine and it's your argument for atheism and you're entitled to it. I'm just saying that that sort of corruption doesn't exist in all people of faith. In fact, the exact opposite is true for those who "use" God to inspire them to do good works.

If you believe in god, you are keeping the same myth alive for misuse by people like David Barton.

41 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:50:44am

re: #32 marjoriemoon

That's fine and it's your argument for atheism and you're entitled to it. I'm just saying that that sort of corruption doesn't exist in all people of faith. In fact, the exact opposite is true for those who "use" God to inspire them to do good works.

That's fair. I'm simultaneously pretty much an atheist and a buddhist. However contradictory that might be, I think my moral compass is both society and the way my parents and environment raised me. I just wonder though, as a person of faith do you feel that you "need" God? I hope that doesn't come across as insulting at all.

42 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:50:51am

re: #33 b_sharp

I'd like to see Arnold become POTUS.
'I'll be back'!

Well as Meacham pointed out in that video, the idea gained a lot of traction when he was running for gov (towards a possible Pres run in the future).

43 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:51:42am

I can remember a time when there was talk albeit small talk about repealing the US born part to allow Arnold to run. Of course, Arnold would never get nominated by the GOP. Honestly, I don't know. I guess I agree with Meacham to drop the US born requirement. I mean can we really blame people who are Americans but have parents in the military and foreign service and happen to be born out of the US because of that? I mean I understand why we require people to have a certain amount of residency in the US before allowing them to run for office.

44 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:51:50am

"Sorry folks, park's party's closed. Moose out front should have told you."

45 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:52:09am

re: #12 Charles

I knew Hot Air's audience was getting nuttier and nuttier, but when did they get overrun by Birthers?

A hate mailer sent me this link to let me know that Allahpundit was "apparently as sociopathic as you."

[Link: hotair.com...]

Also check out the thread in the Hot Air Green Room section about the racist Tea Party Email. Predictably most don't seem to understand why depicting a black man as a monkey is racist.

46 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:52:16am

re: #34 Gus 802

No. Being against natural born supremacy doesn't mean being for foreign born supremacy. People should be judged on their character and not on something as feeble as where they were born. And yes, times have changed and there is no longer a credible threat of foreign monarchies. Eventually it will change but not in my lifetime. Perhaps it will take 100 years.

Well ok, let's repeal the natural born citizen clause with a secondary clause saying the Pres can't come from Kenya. MMmkay? Everybody's happy!!

lol

47 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:52:19am

re: #38 marjoriemoon

Of course, but I don't believe in slamming entire religions because they inherently corrupt people. I don't believe that. Do I believe people misuse spiritual teachings for their own egotistical purposes? To conquer? Oh yea they do.

And you never see me slamming whole religions about anything. But when the subject comes up, I will defend my position. That's funny, I was under the impression that all evangelicals are knuckle dragging neanderthals. I wonder where I got that idea from?

48 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:53:04am

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

Actually, I don't see the religious right going on too much about atheist at all. Atheist are basically ignored by the religious right. You'll see an article here or there, a annual sermon on the subject, but there is not really a all out battle between evangelicals and atheists. For a matter of fact, the most shit stirring between those two groups are usually instigated by certain atheists.

And I do love those atheists! However, there are a significant group of idiots that instigate the gnus the most, and those are the anti-science idiots. AIG and their like antagonize atheists simply because by putting forth their troglodytian view of the world, they're damaging education and children through religiously tainted misinformation. And that, my friend, is shit stirring.

49 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:53:13am

re: #43 HappyWarrior

I can remember a time when there was talk albeit small talk about repealing the US born part to allow Arnold to run. Of course, Arnold would never get nominated by the GOP. Honestly, I don't know. I guess I agree with Meacham to drop the US born requirement. I mean can we really blame people who are Americans but have parents in the military and foreign service and happen to be born out of the US because of that? I mean I understand why we require people to have a certain amount of residency in the US before allowing them to run for office.

I'll be blunt. The natural born clause is territorial and animalistic.

50 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:53:23am

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

Actually, I don't see the religious right going on too much about atheist at all. Atheist are basically ignored by the religious right. You'll see an article here or there, a annual sermon on the subject, but there is not really a all out battle between evangelicals and atheists. For a matter of fact, the most shit stirring between those two groups are usually instigated by certain atheists.

Except they are attempting to get creationism into the schools with the goal of removing evolution which they associate with atheism.

That certainly isn't something started by atheists, gnu or not.

51 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:53:36am

re: #44 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"Sorry folks, park's party's closed. Moose out front should have told you."

I think you're all fucked in the head. We're ten hours from the fucking fun park and you want to bail out. Well I'll tell you something. This is no longer a vacation. It's a quest. It's a quest for fun. I'm gonna have fun and you're gonna have fun. We're all gonna have so much fucking fun we'll need plastic surgeory to remove our godamn smiles. You'll be whistling 'Zip-A-Dee Doo-Dah' out of you're assholes! I gotta be crazy! I'm on a pilgrimage to see a moose. Praise Marty Moose! Holy Shit!

52 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:54:00am

re: #29 Walter L. Newton

No, Walter.

There is an enormous difference between people who believe in god and yet do not think that governance should be based on those belief, and those, like Barton, who do.

Furthermore, there is a huge difference between people for whom their belief is metaphysical, not denying science in any way but instead positing an unprovable 'other' nature to existence, and those who reject science because it conflicts with their belief.

I don't know why you want to conflate these different aspects of religious people. It is rather tone-deaf of you to do so; it's the kind of thing that makes people feel that atheism, itself, is a religion. If your analysis of religion can't tell the difference between, say, Reine, and David Barton, your analysis isn't worth much.

53 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:54:13am

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

If you believe in god, you are keeping the same myth alive for misuse by people like David Barton.

If you don't believe in God, you're keeping the myth alive for misuse by people like Ayn Rand. I can play that game too :)

54 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:54:35am

re: #49 Gus 802

I'll be blunt. The natural born clause is territorial and animalistic.

I am tempted to go a step further and say I am fine with someone foreign born being able to run for president provided they've become a citizen and all that. I mean if we can trust governorships, senate/house seats, cabinet posts, etc to foreign born people why not the presidency? I realize that's a radical position.

55 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:55:21am

re: #53 marjoriemoon

If you don't believe in God, you're keeping the myth alive for misuse by people like Ayn Rand. I can play that game too :)

I can help! I won't say they replace God with Richard Dawkins and tunderf00t.

//

56 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:55:22am

re: #53 marjoriemoon

If you don't believe in God, you're keeping the myth alive for misuse by people like Ayn Rand. I can play that game too :)

Man, I wish I could get involved in this game. I can't so I guess I should just scream 'Charles Darwin' and run out of the room.

57 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:55:50am

re: #56 deadletterboy

Fun fact: this is actually how I win all arguments.

58 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:56:12am

re: #50 b_sharp

Except they are attempting to get creationism into the schools with the goal of removing evolution which they associate with atheism.

That certainly isn't something started by atheists, gnu or not.

I wasn't talking about atheist who fight creationism in schools. That is a battle that is comprised of a larger flavor of people than just atheists. It includes even believers.

When I was referencing shit-stirring atheists, I was more thinking of the folks who want to take "in god we trust" off coins and other (what I consider) insignificant freedom from religion positions.

59 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:56:26am

re: #21 b_sharp

Aren't those three available without religion?

Yes.
But neither are those incompatible with faith.

Strange conversation going on here.
Are some of you folks actually proselytizing FOR atheism? Sure seems like it.
(not necessarily you b-sharp, just a general observation thrown in with my response to you).

60 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:56:37am

re: #57 deadletterboy

It doesn't win the argument "What was the name of Charles Darwin's brother?" but other than that, it's good.

61 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:56:49am

re: #41 deadletterboy

That's fair. I'm simultaneously pretty much an atheist and a buddhist. However contradictory that might be, I think my moral compass is both society and the way my parents and environment raised me. I just wonder though, as a person of faith do you feel that you "need" God? I hope that doesn't come across as insulting at all.

Need? I'd have to think about that! It's more of a choice really. I mean as a Jew, I was born into it. I didn't have much choice there. I went away from it for many years and then chose to come back.

62 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:57:22am

re: #52 Obdicut

No, Walter.

There is an enormous difference between people who believe in god and yet do not think that governance should be based on those belief, and those, like Barton, who do.

Furthermore, there is a huge difference between people for whom their belief is metaphysical, not denying science in any way but instead positing an unprovable 'other' nature to existence, and those who reject science because it conflicts with their belief.

I don't know why you want to conflate these different aspects of religious people. It is rather tone-deaf of you to do so; it's the kind of thing that makes people feel that atheism, itself, is a religion. If your analysis of religion can't tell the difference between, say, Reine, and David Barton, your analysis isn't worth much.

Too bad. Go ahead and believe... or not... I'll stick with facts.

63 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:57:25am

re: #60 Obdicut

In that case I just shorten it to 'DARWIN' and moon them.

64 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:57:51am

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Also check out the thread in the Hot Air Green Room section about the racist Tea Party Email. Predictably most don't seem to understand why depicting a black man as a monkey is racist.

Don't most of them claim Darwin was a racist because of a misreading of the minor title of OoS and a passage from Descent of Man? Surely they must know why they make that claim and can extrapolate to that e-mail.

Then again, I have heard interpolation described as a statistical trick so maybe extrapolation is evil too.

65 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:58:10am

I apologize for my poor relationship with punctuation today. I've been at work since 5:30 am and will be here til 6 pm. Yay for two jobs.

66 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:58:18am

And who said atheists were all anti-authoritarian.

//

67 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:59:06am

re: #62 Walter L. Newton

Too bad. Go ahead and believe... or not... I'll stick with facts.

That wasn't in the least the point, Walter. I'm an atheist. I'm just pointing out that by ignoring the vast difference between religious people who don't feel that their religious views should be imposed on anyone else, and people like Barton, who do, you're being willfully blind.

68 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:59:49am

re: #67 Obdicut

I agree heartily Obdicut.

69 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:00:08am

re: #67 Obdicut

That wasn't in the least the point, Walter. I'm an atheist. I'm just pointing out that by ignoring the vast difference between religious people who don't feel that their religious views should be imposed on anyone else, and people like Barton, who do, you're being willfully blind.

Your opinion... big whoop.

70 allegro  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:01:31am

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Also check out the thread in the Hot Air Green Room section about the racist Tea Party Email. Predictably most don't seem to understand why depicting a black man as a monkey is racist.

Heh. SFZ called it yesterday. About the 5th comment is this:

Not both of his parents are black, so how is it racial if one of the three people featured isn’t even black? Poor taste, maybe. Racial/racist? Only if it’s already in your head that everyone should tiptoe around noticing that he’s black when he’s made such a BFD out of trying to draw attention to the fact.

71 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:03:17am

re: #56 deadletterboy

Man, I wish I could get involved in this game. I can't so I guess I should just scream 'Charles Darwin' and run out of the room.

Maimonides, a great Jewish, 12th century scholar, once said that if science proves the Torah wrong, than it isn't that science is wrong, it's that we have misunderstood the Torah and we have to go back to it. (He was also a physician and scientist).

I think my religion has a lot of depth.

72 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:04:58am

re: #71 marjoriemoon

Maimonides, a great Jewish, 12th century scholar, once said that if science proves the Torah wrong, than it isn't that science is wrong, it's that we have misunderstood the Torah and we have to go back to it. (He was also a physician and scientist).

I think my religion has a lot of depth.

He was also a believer.

73 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:06:04am

re: #71 marjoriemoon

It's nice to hear something like that. It'd be nice if someone with some religious authority had once said something similar about the Bible, it would have saved on a lot of this 'THE BIBLE MEANS WHAT IT SAYS QUITE LITERALLY' nonsense.

Shit, am I one of those apologist atheists I'm always reading about?

74 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:06:12am

re: #71 marjoriemoon
One of the many resaons Judiasm has a lot of depth is because we ask a lot of questions about everything. That includes the four that are going to be asked tomorrow evening.

75 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:06:20am

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

Your opinion... big whoop.

His opinion is backer up by fact. About 75-80% of Americans are Christian. Why wouldn't they just vote in a government of religious figures and priests? Even if the constitution got in the way there would still be an easy majority to repeal the establishment clause. It hasn't happened and it never will happen because the vast majority of religious people in this country don't want a religion based government.

76 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:07:41am

re: #54 HappyWarrior

I am tempted to go a step further and say I am fine with someone foreign born being able to run for president provided they've become a citizen and all that. I mean if we can trust governorships, senate/house seats, cabinet posts, etc to foreign born people why not the presidency? I realize that's a radical position.

In the modern world, it's a silly rule. It means someone born outside the U.S. to non-American parents, but who moved here at age 3 months, has lived in the States for their entire life, and is as dedicated, qualified, and 'American' as anyone born here cannot be president, while someone born here but who has spent most of their life outside the country in a culture opposed to our values will still be able to.

The president probably should need to be citizen (If we can't find one qualified, we have some other issues) and maybe should need to have been here for so long or whatever, but birth status makes no sense to me. If someone has ideas so foreign as to be a concern, I highly doubt they'd have a chance to be elected, anyway.

77 Artist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:08:05am

His plan is to, you guessed it, take over the world!

Youtube Video
78 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:08:37am

re: #71 marjoriemoon

Also, your religion may not like atheists, but it seems to respect their right to exist. The religious right wants a theocracy, plain and simple.

79 Egregious Philbin  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:09:54am

Never did like the talibornagains.

80 allegro  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:10:45am

re: #78 deadletterboy

The religious right wants a theocracy, plain and simple.

At gunpoint yet, if Huckabee had his way. That is so wrong on so many different levels...

81 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:11:06am

re: #75 Killgore Trout

His opinion is backer up by fact. About 75-80% of Americans are Christian. Why wouldn't they just vote in a government of religious figures and priests? Even if the constitution got in the way there would still be an easy majority to repeal the establishment clause. It hasn't happened and it never will happen because the vast majority of religious people in this country don't want a religion based government.

I've never argued that point, so I don't know what you are even talking about? I'm talking about the general belief in a god.. that's it. But just because someone doesn't try to push their religion or belief on matters of government, doesn't change my opinion of their belief.

82 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:11:29am

re: #76 Simply Sarah

In the modern world, it's a silly rule. It means someone born outside the U.S. to non-American parents, but who moved here at age 3 months, has lived in the States for their entire life, and is as dedicated, qualified, and 'American' as anyone born here cannot be president, while someone born here but who has spent most of their life outside the country in a culture opposed to our values will still be able to.

The president probably should need to be citizen (If we can't find one qualified, we have some other issues) and maybe should need to have been here for so long or whatever, but birth status makes no sense to me. If someone has ideas so foreign as to be a concern, I highly doubt they'd have a chance to be elected, anyway.

Right, I was thinking about cases like that honestly. I mean there are plenty of people who come to this country at a very young age and are as American as me. I guess I understand why this was done but we've had many foreign people prove to be able Americans. I am not sure how true this is but I heard the US born part was done to prevent Hamilton who was born in the Virgin ISlands from running since many of the founders thought he was a nut.

83 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:13:21am

re: #80 allegro

And that's why they have their lovely militias. It's a weird, weird world anymore.

84 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:14:10am

re: #78 deadletterboy

Also, your religion may not like atheists, but it seems to respect their right to exist. The religious right wants a theocracy, plain and simple.

After the Holocaust, a lot of Jews turned atheist, including many members of that generation in my family - maybe even all, but Judaism is complex as far as there is The Word, but also the culture. My grandfather, born in 1902 in Poland and witnessed a lot of evil acts himself, confessed to me that he didn't believe in God, but yet he said all the prayers at the family gatherings. So to whom was he praying? I concluded that he didn't so much disbelieve as he was angry.

85 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:15:52am

re: #78 deadletterboy

Also, your religion may not like atheists, but it seems to respect their right to exist. The religious right wants a theocracy, plain and simple.

You see, this is where you make a big mistake. There are hundreds and thousands of evangelical's, who, in the matters of religion, would be consider very conservative and right leaning, in religious matter... many black baptist churches, noon-denominational churches in the south, charismatic catholic churches with a primarily Hispanic make up of their congregation... there is a lot of bible believing, conservative religionist who are Democrats.

There is a certain element of bible believing evangelical's who can fall into the category of David Barton... there are many who do not.

Don't be so broad brushed.

86 allegro  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:17:08am

re: #84 marjoriemoon

My grandfather, born in 1902 in Poland and witnessed a lot of evil acts himself, confessed to me that he didn't believe in God, but yet he said all the prayers at the family gatherings. So to whom was he praying? I concluded that he didn't so much disbelieve as he was angry.

Ritual can be comforting, a connection to past and ancestry as well as carrying lovely traditions forward. They are also bonding experiences that tie families and friends together. I can see why no belief in a deity would be necessary to believe in the power of the rituals themselves.

87 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:19:25am

re: #82 HappyWarrior

Right, I was thinking about cases like that honestly. I mean there are plenty of people who come to this country at a very young age and are as American as me. I guess I understand why this was done but we've had many foreign people prove to be able Americans. I am not sure how true this is but I heard the US born part was done to prevent Hamilton who was born in the Virgin ISlands from running since many of the founders thought he was a nut.

The part about Hamilton is false, since he was qualified to be president. Article 2, Section 1 states:

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President

Hamilton was a citizen at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. He was also one of the most important founders.

88 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:19:47am

re: #84 marjoriemoon

After the Holocaust, a lot of Jews turned atheist, including many members of that generation in my family - maybe even all, but Judaism is complex as far as there is The Word, but also the culture. My grandfather, born in 1902 in Poland and witnessed a lot of evil acts himself, confessed to me that he didn't believe in God, but yet he said all the prayers at the family gatherings. So to whom was he praying? I concluded that he didn't so much disbelieve as he was angry.

That's an unfortunate theme among believers, however it isn't accurate. Atheists are atheists, they aren't believers angry at god. It is very difficult to get mad at the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, leprachauns and god when they are all viewed as fairy tales.

Your grandfather was likely not praying but going through the motions to show his respect for the beliefs of his family.

89 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:22:00am

re: #84 marjoriemoon

After the Holocaust, a lot of Jews turned atheist, including many members of that generation in my family - maybe even all, but Judaism is complex as far as there is The Word, but also the culture. My grandfather, born in 1902 in Poland and witnessed a lot of evil acts himself, confessed to me that he didn't believe in God, but yet he said all the prayers at the family gatherings. So to whom was he praying? I concluded that he didn't so much disbelieve as he was angry.

We will be celebrating Passover tomorrow evening. There will be secular Jews at the table, atheists, a few christian believers, I will be the host... what's wrong with this picture... nothing... I never imply that someone shouldn't have their religious heritage, their gatherings, their holy days.

I will pipe up when the subject turns to god.

How can a diverse bunch like I mention above celebrate Passover. Because we celebrate one of the main themes of Passover... freedom... which most anyone, believer or not, can understand the concept.

Our Haggadah follows the basic outline, the basic stories and prayers, but we also have included information about the American Revolution, the formation of the State of Israel, the Civil War and the fight to free slaves.

That's the grace, mercy and compassion that we find in Passover.

90 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:22:58am

re: #88 b_sharp

I've definitely gone through the motions of praying. I do it, in particular, to avoid offending my very Catholic family members. I have some very religious friends as well, but they respect me and know my own thoughts well enough that they aren't offended when I just twiddle my thumbs during grace.

91 S'latch  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:23:21am

And all this time I thought our country's founding fathers were influenced by the Enlightenment, Age of Reason, Hobbes, Locke, Adam Smith, Rousseau, etc.

92 Desert Fox  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:23:50am

re: #82 HappyWarrior

I am not sure how true this is but I heard the US born part was done to prevent Hamilton who was born in the Virgin ISlands from running since many of the founders thought he was a nut.

From Article Two, Section 1 of the U. S. Constitution:

“No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President..."

So Hamilton, nutty though he may have been, was eligible.

93 Summer Seale  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:26:50am

I just have to say something:

One reason that you haven't heard more of Sarah Palin from me is because it's becoming impossible to parody the parody that is the Republican Party. They've gone so over the top and beyond that it all seems like a total joke these days.

Case and point: I told some people at the office here in France what Republicans are lately given to believe, and their eyes popped out. They thought I was completely joking. They had no idea that anyone could believe such nonsense. What was even more shocking to them was how politicians can state the things they can state and not end up in the loony house.

Almost every single completely radical extremist statement that I have tried to come up with in the last two years has been met with real statements and beliefs on their side which make mine look tame in comparison.

The only thing I could think about saying at this point is some crazy statement such as "Nuke the whole world" - only, it's not even that extreme anymore either because you have people who really believe that this is a good idea, what with Jesus coming down on the 21st of next month and all.

So yea, forgive my not being around to make the extremists seem even more silly than they already are, but they've gone and done every humorist's job for them at this point.

Not quite sure what else I could possibly add to make them seem even more insane than they already are.

94 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:27:14am

re: #92 Desert Fox

From Article Two, Section 1 of the U. S. Constitution:

“No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President..."

So Hamilton, nutty though he may have been, was eligible.

Yeah I see that. He's a guy that interests me since of the Founders, he was the first one I started viewing with dosages of nuance. Jefferson & Washington were always hard to analyze with nuance when I first started taking post high school history classes but Hamilton I was able to see the man for all his complexites early on.

95 calochortus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:28:10am

Presumably these religious government fans base their opinion on the inerrancy of the Bible. As a totally non-religious person, it seems to me that it should be fairly easy to disprove the literal truth of the New Testament.
For instance the Gospel of John states more than once that if you ask for something in Jesus' name it will be granted. Now, assuming God wants everyone to be a Christian, I would invite believers to pray that I see their beliefs are true, become a believer and confess my faith on the spot.

I haven't actually had occasion to try that on anyone as my philosophy is not to annoy those who aren't annoying me and no one has tried to proselytize me in decades, but I think it avoids the "God won't grant your wish for a million dollars because its not part of his plan" responses that one generally sees.

96 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:30:42am

re: #88 b_sharp

That's an unfortunate theme among believers, however it isn't accurate. Atheists are atheists, they aren't believers angry at god. It is very difficult to get mad at the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, leprachauns and god when they are all viewed as fairy tales.

Your grandfather was likely not praying but going through the motions to show his respect for the beliefs of his family.

Allegro got it more as a source of ritual and tradition. But I also knew my grandad as a really strong individual (physically and mentally) so I don't think he would have just gone through the motions of anything without some belief.

I told my grandfather at the time that men have choices, to do evil acts or do good acts, but I don't think he was satisfied with that explanation.

OTOH, I absolutely understand that experiencing the Holocaust first hand can surely make you a non-believer.

97 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:32:04am

re: #93 Summer

Agreed. Fox news and the wingnuts have become a parody of themselves. They've become almost immune to criticism because it has just become a known fact that their entire belief system is based on lies, revisionist history and conspiracy theories. It's become like arguing with 9-11 truthers. No mater how much you laugh at them or debunk the bs it will never change them. It becomes pretty futile after a while.

98 Big Joe  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:33:23am

Which 'Biblical Laws' would they like to make us follow? Is it going to be a Catholic or Baptist or Quaker interpretation? Are we going to have the moral police like Saudi Arabia? Death for homosexuals and adulterers? I can't think of any upside to theocracy.

99 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:34:08am

re: #93 Summer

Outrageous claims...wait birtherism....violent rhetoric...crap, point of a gun bible learnin'....Silly hats...wait no, they were wearing tea bags on their hats.....

I got nothing.

100 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:34:28am

re: #95 calochortus

Presumably these religious government fans base their opinion on the inerrancy of the Bible. As a totally non-religious person, it seems to me that it should be fairly easy to disprove the literal truth of the New Testament.
For instance the Gospel of John states more than once that if you ask for something in Jesus' name it will be granted. Now, assuming God wants everyone to be a Christian, I would invite believers to pray that I see their beliefs are true, become a believer and confess my faith on the spot.

I haven't actually had occasion to try that on anyone as my philosophy is not to annoy those who aren't annoying me and no one has tried to proselytize me in decades, but I think it avoids the "God won't grant your wish for a million dollars because its not part of his plan" responses that one generally sees.

While it's pretty much impossible to 'prove' the existence of god, simply because there is no way to falsify it, it is possible to subject specific claims of religious adherents to testing, such as the efficacy of prayer.

101 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:36:23am

re: #96 marjoriemoon

Allegro got it more as a source of ritual and tradition. But I also knew my grandad as a really strong individual (physically and mentally) so I don't think he would have just gone through the motions of anything without some belief.

I told my grandfather at the time that men have choices, to do evil acts or do good acts, but I don't think he was satisfied with that explanation.

OTOH, I absolutely understand that experiencing the Holocaust first hand can surely make you a non-believer.

But for some reason, you found it difficult to believe him when he told you point blank he didn't believe. Was your grandfather so untrustworthy?

102 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:36:59am

re: #89 Walter L. Newton

We will be celebrating Passover tomorrow evening. There will be secular Jews at the table, atheists, a few christian believers, I will be the host... what's wrong with this picture... nothing... I never imply that someone shouldn't have their religious heritage, their gatherings, their holy days.

I will pipe up when the subject turns to god.

How can a diverse bunch like I mention above celebrate Passover. Because we celebrate one of the main themes of Passover... freedom... which most anyone, believer or not, can understand the concept.

Our Haggadah follows the basic outline, the basic stories and prayers, but we also have included information about the American Revolution, the formation of the State of Israel, the Civil War and the fight to free slaves.

That's the grace, mercy and compassion that we find in Passover.

That's great and freedom from oppression is what Passover is all about.

I would only add that if someone cares to interject God (which, you know, is the "reason for the season" as my Christian brothers and sisters say), I would let them have their peace. It's probably not the most appropriate time to argue the point.

103 calochortus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:37:48am

re: #100 b_sharp

I think the question is whether people will simply continue to believe every word is true despite it being disproved. Confirmation bias is a powerful force.

Without the inerrancy, it would be hard to come up with a compelling reason for Biblical law.

104 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:44:04am

re: #103 calochortus

I think the question is whether people will simply continue to believe every word is true despite it being disproved. Confirmation bias is a powerful force.

Without the inerrancy, it would be hard to come up with a compelling reason for Biblical law.

Which biblical law? The is over 600 laws in Deuteronomy, many dealing with cultural motifs which would make no sense in a modern culture. Then again, there are certain laws which are very humanistic, and would certainly fall with in the standards of human rights.

Throwing out the bible with the bath water just because the book can be proven to be compiled of some history, myth and magical thinking doesn't make all of the tenets in the scripture invalid.

I don't agree with your statement above.

105 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:45:17am

re: #101 b_sharp

But for some reason, you found it difficult to believe him when he told you point blank he didn't believe. Was your grandfather so untrustworthy?

Jewish ritual and tradition is part of a lifestyle that can be part of actual belief in God or not. I was just giving him a little food for thought when I said that evil men (Hitlerl) made a choice to do what they did and that had nothing to do with God. OTOH, I wasn't there. He was.

I don't know where you came up with trustworthiness. It's about an opinion, not that fact that I assumed he was "lying".

106 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:45:53am

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

Er... and Leviticus.

107 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:46:10am

re: #93 Summer

I feel your pain.

About "nuking the world" -- they're already saying that.

Check this Hot Air comment page, in which a commenter says that when Barack Obama is revealed as the imposter/traitor he is, he'll react by ordering a nuclear strike ... on America.

[Link: hotair.com...]

If he DOES release it [the birth certificate] it could very likely cost him his freedom. A friend of mine pointed out a year ago that if he knowingly usurps the office of Presidency, and swears the oath of office, he has effectively committed treason. He would have by his “affirmative act” of taking the office that he KNOWS he’s not eligible for, INTENTIONALLY committed treason against the nation.

Yeah, i’m thinking he may not show that birth certificate no matter what he is threatened with. I likewise think some people in Hawaii and the DNC may be going to jail if that thing ever gets into the public eye.

I literally expect him to order Nuke strikes on the country before he releases anything which will put him in prison.

DiogenesLamp on April 15, 2011 at 11:25 PM

Pamela Geller has also spread this creepy meme.

108 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:47:49am

re: #103 calochortus

I think the question is whether people will simply continue to believe every word is true despite it being disproved. Confirmation bias is a powerful force.

Without the inerrancy, it would be hard to come up with a compelling reason for Biblical law.

Indeed. The component of religion that makes up arbitrary rules and demands that people follow them is an interesting one. In Judaism, it's about belonging-- Jews practice Judaism by following these strictures and rules. It's about adherence.

I don't get why people would take those laws, those rules which believers are supposed to follow, and demand that non-believers follow them. Is it supposed to make them believe?

Even those who are calling for Biblical law based on inerrancy are ignoring the actual text; the laws from the Old Testament apply to Jews. It's quite clear about that.

109 calochortus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:49:37am

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

Walter, I never said that any law that appears in the Bible should be thrown out. I said that it seemed to me the basis for instituting Biblical law was the supposed inerrancy of the Bible. Since it can be shown to have errors that argument for Biblical law fails.

I don't think most proponents of Biblical law actually have much understanding of the concept anyway. As you say, many of the laws are totally incompatible with modern life.

110 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:50:19am

re: #105 marjoriemoon

Jewish ritual and tradition is part of a lifestyle that can be part of actual belief in God or not. I was just giving him a little food for thought when I said that evil men (Hitlerl) made a choice to do what they did and that had nothing to do with God. OTOH, I wasn't there. He was.

I don't know where you came up with trustworthiness. It's about an opinion, not that fact that I assumed he was "lying".

MM, you earlier stated your grandfather told you he didn't believe, yet because he followed ritual, you felt he didn't disbelieve, but that he was just angry, I assume you meant he was angry at god. If he told you he disbelieved, but you didn't believe that statement then that says something about how you viewed him, does it not?

If I misunderstand what you are saying, I apologize.

111 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:50:37am

re: #107 Charles

Because that's how it works. The president just orders a nuclear launch on the US, and everyone in the chain of command would just go along with it.

Well, maybe if he targeted Schenectady. I've never heard anyone say anything good about Schenectady

112 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:51:01am

Here's the Shrieking Harpy's version of "nuke the world:"

Pamela Geller: Obama is Planning to Nuke the US

113 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:51:52am

re: #112 Charles

Obama is Planning to Nuke the US

... said the crazy person on the streetcorner.

114 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:52:06am

re: #107 Charles

I feel your pain.

About "nuking the world" -- they're already saying that.

Check this Hot Air comment page, in which a commenter says that when Barack Obama is revealed as the imposter/traitor he is, he'll react by ordering a nuclear strike ... on America.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Pamela Geller has also spread this creepy meme.

Doesn't he have to be an American before he can commit treason?

115 calochortus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:52:48am

re: #111 Obdicut

Not only that-without actually reading Ms. Geller I'm not sure what good it would do to nuke America. That might clue people in that he was hiding something...

116 Digital Display  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:53:07am

re: #107 Charles

I literally expect him to order Nuke strikes on the country before he releases anything which will put him in prison

Boy that's going to be difficult because nuclear fire control systems don't allow strikes on America or it's territories

117 deadletterboy  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:53:43am

re: #107 Charles

Do these people really think he somehow avoided the whole natural born citizen clause with magic or sleight of hand? I honestly don't understand this...unless...I've got it! The hollywood liberals, the birth certificate...it all makes sense.

Barack Obama is Andy Serkis in a motion capture suit!

118 calochortus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:54:03am

re: #116 HoosierHoops

I literally expect him to order Nuke strikes on the country before he releases anything which will put him in prison

Boy that's going to be difficult because nuclear fire control systems don't allow strikes on America or it's territories

Maybe he'll order his shadowy terrorist associates to do it.

119 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:56:06am

re: #118 calochortus

Maybe he'll order his shadowy terrorist associates to do it.

It could be a long haul rewriting all that firmware and software for the control systems.

120 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:57:17am

re: #108 Obdicut

Indeed. The component of religion that makes up arbitrary rules and demands that people follow them is an interesting one. In Judaism, it's about belonging-- Jews practice Judaism by following these strictures and rules. It's about adherence.

I don't get why people would take those laws, those rules which believers are supposed to follow, and demand that non-believers follow them. Is it supposed to make them believe?

Even those who are calling for Biblical law based on inerrancy are ignoring the actual text; the laws from the Old Testament apply to Jews. It's quite clear about that.

The way many christians co-opt the hebrew scriptural laws is by finding a corollary in the Greek scriptures. That's why the Ten Words hold up in christian thought, because you can find Jesus (or one of the apostles) reiterating or referencing a Hebrew scriptural law. These sorts of christians do not see themselves under any law not mirrored in the Greek scriptures.

Many of the of the more conservative evangelical bent actually see themselves as inheritors of the promise to the Jews, they see themselves as the new people of the book, and that's why you will find some of these groups picking and choosing which Hebrew laws they want to follow. This is most seen in some conservative evangelicals thoughts about gays and women.

It's not a black and white issue about the way christians sees the laws and rules in the whole of scripture, there are a number of schools of thoughts. Bottom line, some christian do see some of the Hebrew scriptures laws as applying to them, others do not.

121 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:58:26am

re: #110 b_sharp

MM, you earlier stated your grandfather told you he didn't believe, yet because he followed ritual, you felt he didn't disbelieve, but that he was just angry, I assume you meant he was angry at god. If he told you he disbelieved, but you didn't believe that statement then that says something about how you viewed him, does it not?

If I misunderstand what you are saying, I apologize.

No, but I misrepresented myself. My grandfather was more likely agnostic, not atheist. He personally didn't use either of those words, but I came to that conclusion long after his death when I was contemplating that conversation.

No apology necessary :)

122 calochortus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:58:30am

re: #119 b_sharp
But this has probably been planned for years, generations even. They are evil, but patient. Eleventy.

123 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:03:07pm

re: #112 Charles

Here's the Shrieking Harpy's version of "nuke the world:"

Pamela Geller: Obama is Planning to Nuke the US

Pam posted pics of her big tea party appearance in Texas, looks like about 6 people showed up to the event but on by about 8 organizers. Her book signing show a line of people.

124 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:03:45pm

re: #121 marjoriemoon

No, but I misrepresented myself. My grandfather was more likely agnostic, not atheist. He personally didn't use either of those words, but I came to that conclusion long after his death when I was contemplating that conversation.

No apology necessary :)

Gottcha.

I get a bit annoyed on occasion because I've been told to my face I'm not an atheist, I'm just mad at god, which is equivalent to calling me a liar. If I see a bud going down that path I try to get her/him to see the implications.

125 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:05:58pm

The Al-Jazeera Live Blog today for Libya has turned into a war between the various sides in the Balkans. You've got the Russian, Greek, and Serbian commenting on one side, and everybody else on the other.

126 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:07:27pm

re: #125 ProLifeLiberal

The Al-Jazeera Live Blog today for Libya has turned into a war between the various sides in the Balkans. You've got the Russian, Greek, and Serbian commenting on one side, and everybody else on the other.

Balkanization is such a treat.

127 allegro  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:07:28pm

re: #124 b_sharp

I get a bit annoyed on occasion because I've been told to my face I'm not an atheist, I'm just mad at god, which is equivalent to calling me a liar.

I've had that experience as well. I can only surmise that those who manage to come to that conclusion in their own minds are those whose beliefs aren't very strong. If they were secure in their convictions they wouldn't require such convoluted reasoning to deny that someone else doesn't buy into the fairy tale.

128 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:09:32pm

re: #120 Walter L. Newton

The way many christians co-opt the hebrew scriptural laws is by finding a corollary in the Greek scriptures. That's why the Ten Words hold up in christian thought, because you can find Jesus (or one of the apostles) reiterating or referencing a Hebrew scriptural law. These sorts of christians do not see themselves under any law not mirrored in the Greek scriptures.

Many of the of the more conservative evangelical bent actually see themselves as inheritors of the promise to the Jews, they see themselves as the new people of the book, and that's why you will find some of these groups picking and choosing which Hebrew laws they want to follow. This is most seen in some conservative evangelicals thoughts about gays and women.

It's not a black and white issue about the way christians sees the laws and rules in the whole of scripture, there are a number of schools of thoughts. Bottom line, some christian do see some of the Hebrew scriptures laws as applying to them, others do not.

Addendum: If you want to look into the evangelical groups that consider themselves to be heirs to the Jewish promises and frequently co-opt certain Deuteronomic and Levitical laws as part of their christian dogma, see groups like Covenant groups, Idenity groups, World Wide Church of God, british-Israelism groups and Anglo-Israelism groups.

129 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:10:36pm

re: #126 b_sharp

I have to admit that I even did a few comments. Pointed out that Greeks were present at the Srebrenica massacre, and pointing out that all three were tacitly supporting Ethnic Cleansing (at the least).

130 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:12:03pm

re: #124 b_sharp

Gottcha.

I get a bit annoyed on occasion because I've been told to my face I'm not an atheist, I'm just mad at god, which is equivalent to calling me a liar. If I see a bud going down that path I try to get her/him to see the implications.

Ahh well, I'll put this out then, maybe they threw it out there to get you to think about it? I wouldn't say that to someone because it is insensitive. But you know... I'll just post it on a blog :p

Years ago I worked for a man who is the most moral and ethical person I've ever met. He told me he was agnostic because atheism was too committal. heh

131 Digital Display  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:12:26pm

re: #127 allegro

I've had that experience as well. I can only surmise that those who manage to come to that conclusion in their own minds are those whose beliefs aren't very strong. If they were secure in their convictions they wouldn't require such convoluted reasoning to deny that someone else doesn't buy into the fairy tale.

I used to be like Lt. Dan in Forrest Gump years ago...
/In my best Forrest Gump voice/
I think Lt. Dan made his peace with God

132 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:12:41pm

re: #127 allegro

I've had that experience as well. I can only surmise that those who manage to come to that conclusion in their own minds are those whose beliefs aren't very strong. If they were secure in their convictions they wouldn't require such convoluted reasoning to deny that someone else doesn't buy into the fairy tale.

It's also possibly they just cannot believe someone doesn't view god the same way they do. They find the existence of god self evident.

133 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:18:02pm

Here's the crowd at Pam's Tea Party appearance yesterday...
[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

134 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:19:29pm

re: #133 Killgore Trout
More like company than a crowd. /

135 allegro  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:19:29pm

re: #132 b_sharp

It's also possibly they just cannot believe someone doesn't view god the same way they do. They find the existence of god self evident.

That is an excellent point. Thank you. I suppose I came to the conclusion I did because in the experiences I've had with that particular argument, almost always phrased as "Why are you mad at God?" it has had nothing to do with the specifics of the conversation at the time and has come when they've got nothing else to use to convince me to embrace their beliefs. I've always felt that if someone has to work that hard to convince someone else that they're right, that they aren't so sure of it themselves.

136 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:21:01pm

re: #130 marjoriemoon

Ahh well, I'll put this out then, maybe they threw it out there to get you to think about it? I wouldn't say that to someone because it is insensitive. But you know... I'll just post it on a blog :p

Years ago I worked for a man who is the most moral and ethical person I've ever met. He told me he was agnostic because atheism was too committal. heh

I've done a lot of thinking about my belief system, probably more than most. I didn't pull my belief system out of a popular meme, I worked it out, so them getting me to 'think about it' is a bit condescending.

I have a friend who is a philosopher of science that claims it is impossible to be an atheist because there will always be some doubt. My perspective is, he's demanding more from the definition of atheist than he would from the definition of science. Science doesn't demand 100% surety before adopting an hypothesis, why should atheists need to be 100% sure before concluding there is no god?

137 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:21:04pm

re: #133 Killgore Trout

You use the word "crowd". I am not sure that word means what you think that means.

138 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:21:59pm

re: #133 Killgore Trout

Here's the crowd at Pam's Tea Party appearance yesterday...
[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

That looks like the lunch brigade.

139 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:23:05pm

re: #138 b_sharp
LOL

140 allegro  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:23:34pm

re: #136 b_sharp

I've done a lot of thinking about my belief system, probably more than most. I didn't pull my belief system out of a popular meme, I worked it out, so them getting me to 'think about it' is a bit condescending.

Well said! This is the same argument used against women who seek to terminate unwanted pregnancies, used to justify the waiting periods, counseling from anti-choicers, etc. It is condescending as hell.

141 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:25:27pm

re: #135 allegro

That is an excellent point. Thank you. I suppose I came to the conclusion I did because in the experiences I've had with that particular argument, almost always phrased as "Why are you mad at God?" it has had nothing to do with the specifics of the conversation at the time and has come when they've got nothing else to use to convince me to embrace their beliefs. I've always felt that if someone has to work that hard to convince someone else that they're right, that they aren't so sure of it themselves.

Trying to tie belief systems down to a simple explanation is difficult. I always (mostly (frequently)) look for other explanations beyond my first intuitive jump when it come to people.

Getting lost in the complexity is where I usually end up.

142 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:25:29pm

OH WHAT A QUAINT AND ANCIENT MYTHOLOGICAL TALE:

Pelias usurps the throne of Thessaly by killing King Aristo. However, there is a prophecy that he will be overthrown by a child of Aristo wearing one sandal. When he kills one of Aristo's daughters after she had sought and been granted the protection of Hera, Pelias makes an enemy of the goddess.

Twenty years later, Jason, Aristo's son grown to manhood, saves the life of Pelias during a chance encounter, but loses a sandal doing so. He does not know that he has rescued his father's murderer, but Pelias recognizes his nemesis. Pelias keeps his identity secret. However, he cannot just kill Jason; the prophecy also says that he himself would die.

When he learns that Jason is undertaking a dangerous quest to obtain the fabled Golden Fleece to rally the people of Thessaly, Pelias encourages him, hoping that he will be killed in the attempt. Men from all over Greece compete for the honor of joining Jason. Since their ship is named the Argo after the ship's builder Argos, they are dubbed the Argonauts. Among those chosen are Hercules and Acastus, the son of Pelias, who is sent by his father to sabotage the voyage.

etc, etc, etc.


OH, LET US COMPORT OURSELVES IN REVERENCE TO THE ACTUAL TRULY TRUE TRUTH AS REVEALED BY THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE!

*The text of the Torah and/or the New Testament*

143 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:26:08pm

re: #137 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You use the word "crowd". I am not sure that word means what you think that means.

heh. The folks at Americans for Prosperity are certainly going to stop financing these Tea Party events. It probably cost a few thousand dollars to book that theater at the convention center and only six people showed up. The were probably family of the organizers.
This went on all over the country yesterday. It's an enormous amount of money.

144 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:27:45pm

re: #112 Charles

Here's the Shrieking Harpy's version of "nuke the world:"

Pamela Geller: Obama is Planning to Nuke the US

Wow, she's even more unhinged than I thought. I can't wait to hear what he's going to do next according to her.

145 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:27:46pm

re: #143 Killgore Trout

heh. The folks at Americans for Prosperity are certainly going to stop financing these Tea Party events. It probably cost a few thousand dollars to book that theater at the convention center and only six people showed up. The were probably family of the organizers.
This went on all over the country yesterday. It's an enormous amount of money.

Where did you get the numbers from?

146 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:29:56pm

re: #145 b_sharp

Where did you get the numbers from?

The pics on her blog. It's a rough guess but you can recognize individuals in each shot. You can even recognize the people in the front row od the theater are the same ones waiting in line at the book signing show their shirts.

147 Summer Seale  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:31:18pm

re: #107 Charles

Reading any Right-Wing site at this point is sort of like walking into the asylum in the introduction of Amadeus. (Starting around 4:30 on the scrubber).

148 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:31:54pm

By the way I love the narrative Pam and others have created that Obama is this angry man who hates this country so much that he wants to destroy it. I mean really. Question his policies all you want but to believe as Pam and her legion of idiots believe that he's an angry man desperate for revenge against this country is unbelievably absurd even for them.

149 MarkAM  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:33:58pm

Meanwhile, Trump just gets more crazier, calls the US a "laughingstock" and calls for seizing Libya's olil:

"Look at Libya. Look at this mess," an exasperated Trump said.
"We go in, we don't go in, he shouldn't be removed, we don't want to remove him, we don't want to touch him, but he should be removed. Nobody knows what they're doing on Kadhafi," he added.
"I'd do one thing. Either I'd go in and take the oil or I don't go in at all," he said. "In the old days, when you have a war and you win, that nation is yours."

[Link: www.google.com...]

150 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:34:06pm

re: #143 Killgore Trout

They fucked themselves. The rhetoric seemed like it was getting some traction.. so it increased... then people started to hear how insane they were starting to sound... then people stopped coming.

151 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:34:31pm

oh GOD Jesse Jackson Jr, please stop talking when it comes to technology, your brain doesn't seem to be able to wrap itself around the concept of technology: [Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

so so fucking stupid and embarrassing

152 MarkAM  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:34:34pm

crazier. . .PIMF

153 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:35:14pm

re: #151 WindUpBird

BORDERS! Really?

We're crying tears for fucking Borders? A book store so corporate as to chew all the flavor out of the bookbuying experience?

154 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:35:20pm

Myself? I'm an agnostic.

From my point of view believers and atheists are flip sides of the same coin. One says there is a God, Allah to Zeus, take your pick. The other says there is not.

Both positions are matters of faith for neither side can offer proof of either the existence or non-existence of God. As I said, it's a matter of faith.

A faith which I lack. So I'm an agnostic, and I'll thank both sides to keep their noses out of my business.

155 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:35:33pm

re: #149 MarkAM

Meanwhile, Trump just gets more crazier, calls the US a "laughingstock" and calls for seizing Libya's olil:

"Look at Libya. Look at this mess," an exasperated Trump said.
"We go in, we don't go in, he shouldn't be removed, we don't want to remove him, we don't want to touch him, but he should be removed. Nobody knows what they're doing on Kadhafi," he added.
"I'd do one thing. Either I'd go in and take the oil or I don't go in at all," he said. "In the old days, when you have a war and you win, that nation is yours."

[Link: www.google.com...]

he's crazy like a rock star.

meaning he's punking us all :D

156 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:35:41pm

re: #3 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

There are days I almost wish that the Founding Fathers would rise from their graves, appear before Congress, and declare that all those claiming that this was always intended to be a "Christian nation" are a pack of morons.

I'd settle for the Zombie Founders to go medieval on Barton and his ilk and beat the ever-loving shit out of them...put it on pay-per-view and someone could make out like bandits.

/a man can dream, right?

157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:36:21pm

re: #151 WindUpBird

It burns, teh stupid.

158 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:36:50pm

re: #151 WindUpBird

oh GOD Jesse Jackson Jr, please stop talking when it comes to technology, your brain doesn't seem to be able to wrap itself around the concept of technology: [Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

so so fucking stupid and embarrassing

I love bookstores as much as the next person but he sounds so unbelievably ignorant right here. Glad I am not his constituent.

159 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:37:55pm

re: #158 HappyWarrior

I love bookstores as much as the next person but he sounds so unbelievably ignorant right here. Glad I am not his constituent.

I like good bookstores. Borders deserved to die in a ditch. They literally gave their business model away to Amazon and B&N

160 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:38:26pm

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

I think you're all fucked in the head. We're ten hours from the fucking fun park and you want to bail out. Well I'll tell you something. This is no longer a vacation. It's a quest. It's a quest for fun. I'm gonna have fun and you're gonna have fun. We're all gonna have so much fucking fun we'll need plastic surgeory to remove our godamn smiles. You'll be whistling 'Zip-A-Dee Doo-Dah' out of you're assholes! I gotta be crazy! I'm on a pilgrimage to see a moose. Praise Marty Moose! Holy Shit!

You want an aspirin?

161 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:38:58pm

re: #158 HappyWarrior

I love bookstores as much as the next person but he sounds so unbelievably ignorant right here. Glad I am not his constituent.

this is a good bookstore: Image: PowellsBookstore.jpg

162 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:40:15pm

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

"it's a quest! a quest for fun!"

is one of my favorite movie quotes of all time, especially so on any road trip to a con that has gone poorly


more than once, standing in the snow in the dark, putting chains on the station wagon (literally) in the mountains, turning to the SO and going "It's a quest! a quest for fun!"

and then screaming.

163 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:40:23pm

re: #161 WindUpBird
Where is this bookstore located?

164 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:40:35pm

re: #159 WindUpBird

I like good bookstores. Borders deserved to die in a ditch. They literally gave their business model away to Amazon and B&N

Is Borders officially going out of business? Seems like whenever I stop by one, it's going out of business. Means for great discounts but of course more difficult to find what I want. There were like 30 copies of Mike Huckabee's Christmas book at the Borders I was at yesterday. No, thanks. Ended up going to Barnes and Noble instead and finally got a Mao Zedong biography since I've been wanting to read one due to my recent interest in 20th century China.

165 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:40:52pm

"the principles that the founding fathers used are biblical principles"

this is sufficiently vague!

166 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:41:11pm

re: #163 PhillyPretzel

Where is this bookstore located?

about 10 minutes from me, in downtown Portland, Oregon. Pretty sure it's the largest independent bookstore in the entire USA.

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:41:14pm

re: #15 Charles

Wow. I don't believe how crazy that Hot Air thread is.

Alas, I do.

168 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:41:40pm

re: #164 HappyWarrior

Is Borders officially going out of business? Seems like whenever I stop by one, it's going out of business. Means for great discounts but of course more difficult to find what I want. There were like 30 copies of Mike Huckabee's Christmas book at the Borders I was at yesterday. No, thanks. Ended up going to Barnes and Noble instead and finally got a Mao Zedong biography since I've been wanting to read one due to my recent interest in 20th century China.


BANKRUPT

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

169 allegro  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:41:43pm

I can never grieve the loss of a big box store, regardless of the product theme. I DO grieve the loss of the small, family owned businesses that once filled small town downtown shops that are now boarded up since the WalMart et al came to town.

170 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:42:00pm

re: #166 WindUpBird
TY. I have to find something like that in Philly.

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:43:33pm

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

That source of grace, mercy and compassion requires a BELIEF too. Unless you're telling me that it's fine to be a hypocrite, sit in church, get all that grace, mercy and compassion but know in your heart that the whole basis behind the show is a bunch of mythical rot passed down by cultures who, at the time, found a way to deal with the unknown.

It's not 3500 BC anymore. You can get all of the grace, mercy and compassion from your interactions with your fellow man. You don't need some mystical referee in the sky keeping score.

I'm starting to think this may be the difference between enjoying a fine cheese, and chowing down on rotted, bacterial milk.

172 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:44:29pm

re: #168 WindUpBird

BANKRUPT

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

That explains my experiences the past year quite well then. I really like Amazon as a place for book shopping. My god, private sellers selling rare books for cheap. Plus with my English professor's very specific instructions on certain editions of novels, that was also very helpful.

173 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:44:39pm

re: #153 WindUpBird

BORDERS! Really?

We're crying tears for fucking Borders? A book store so corporate as to chew all the flavor out of the bookbuying experience?

Absolutely right!

There used to be a bookstore here called "Little Professor". Small bookstore; and I believe it was part of a chain, but they ran a real bookstore. They hired people who actually READ BOOKS. They had an employee who loved detective/thriller type of fiction and knew all the authors. Ditto science-fiction. Ditto non-fiction. Ditto all the genres. You could go in to that store with a book title, or even a PIECE OF A BOOK TITLE, and there would be someone there who could tell you the full title and the author and whether they had it or could order it.

Out of business now - Borders, BooksAMillion, etc. put those sorts of bookstores exist anymore.

174 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:44:40pm

re: #135 allegro

That is an excellent point. Thank you. I suppose I came to the conclusion I did because in the experiences I've had with that particular argument, almost always phrased as "Why are you mad at God?" it has had nothing to do with the specifics of the conversation at the time and has come when they've got nothing else to use to convince me to embrace their beliefs. I've always felt that if someone has to work that hard to convince someone else that they're right, that they aren't so sure of it themselves.

I wouldn't assume that someone is mad at God for their non-belief. My grandad, however, had real reasons for anger. I didn't tell the story accurately, which is my fault.

On his 90th birthday, he and I went for a walk after dinner and he started talking being ready for death which kinda freaked me out. He never discussed such things with anyone in the family .He said that he didn't believe in hell, but he believed in heaven which he said was a place where he could talk politics and philosophy with the greatest minds in the universe (we laughed).

Then he said he didn't believe in God because no God could make a man like Hitler. That's when I brought up choice and free will and some people make the choice to commit evil acts, but he just shook his head. It was after his death, thinking about him and that conversation, I concluded he was more likely agnostic.

175 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:45:14pm

Went to the store to get some grub, snacks and cigs.

Here's something to read: Sand Creek massacre

Learn about how the Americans massacred over 100 women and children during their conquest of North America. The president at the time was Lincoln.

176 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:45:46pm

re: #173 reine.de.tout

Absolutely right!

There used to be a bookstore here called "Little Professor". Small bookstore; and I believe it was part of a chain, but they ran a real bookstore. They hired people who actually READ BOOKS. They had an employee who loved detective/thriller type of fiction and knew all the authors. Ditto science-fiction. Ditto non-fiction. Ditto all the genres. You could go in to that store with a book title, or even a PIECE OF A BOOK TITLE, and there would be someone there who could tell you the full title and the author and whether they had it or could order it.

Out of business now - Borders, BooksAMillion, etc. put those sorts of bookstores exist anymoreout of business.

PIMF.
Hell.

177 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:46:49pm

re: #170 PhillyPretzel

TY. I have to find something like that in Philly.

There's gotta be some sweet bookstores in Philly :D

178 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:46:51pm

re: #173 reine.de.tout

Absolutely right!

There used to be a bookstore here called "Little Professor". Small bookstore; and I believe it was part of a chain, but they ran a real bookstore. They hired people who actually READ BOOKS. They had an employee who loved detective/thriller type of fiction and knew all the authors. Ditto science-fiction. Ditto non-fiction. Ditto all the genres. You could go in to that store with a book title, or even a PIECE OF A BOOK TITLE, and there would be someone there who could tell you the full title and the author and whether they had it or could order it.

Out of business now - Borders, BooksAMillion, etc. put those sorts of bookstores exist anymore.

Little Professor? We had one of those at the shopping center where I grew up. It went out of business not long after it opened. I don't recall the selection that well but I just remember loving having a bookstore that close to my house. There was an independent bookstore in town too. The owner gave me Solzhenitsyn Gulag Archipelago triology as well as Shelby Foote's Civil War trilogy for a very nice price.

179 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:47:18pm

Oh hai lizards.

My daughter is in the kitchen, cooking up a storm. My grandkids are in the TV room, watching their way through the entire collection of Disney and Dreamworks animations. They have already watched "Bee Story," "Despicable Me," "Up," "Finding Nemo," "Cars," and now they're watching "Princess and the Frog."

My daughter has said they are not allowed to watch "Shrek" because the last time they were here, I let them watch all 3 films, and they memorized all the off-color parts that were supposed to go "over the kids' heads" and repeated them to all their classmates whose parents don't allow their kids to watch movies or TV.

Also, the "National Geographic" educational animals video shows some R-rated action amongst the wild okapi. Two males fight for dominance and the winner gets a "golden shower" from the female. My grandkids watched this. Science!

180 The Yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:47:29pm

Can't Congress call a hearing over Obama's Birth Certificate. If so what is stopping them?

181 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:47:31pm

re: #170 PhillyPretzel

TY. I have to find something like that in Philly.

is it the blogger Atrios/Eschaton who lives in Philly? Not that I could call him up and say FIND ME A BOOKSTORE FAMOUS BLOG DUDE! but if he mentions one, I'll try and retain it ^^

182 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:47:59pm

re: #173 reine.de.tout

Absolutely right!

There used to be a bookstore here called "Little Professor". Small bookstore; and I believe it was part of a chain, but they ran a real bookstore. They hired people who actually READ BOOKS. They had an employee who loved detective/thriller type of fiction and knew all the authors. Ditto science-fiction. Ditto non-fiction. Ditto all the genres. You could go in to that store with a book title, or even a PIECE OF A BOOK TITLE, and there would be someone there who could tell you the full title and the author and whether they had it or could order it.

Out of business now - Borders, BooksAMillion, etc. put those sorts of bookstores exist anymore.

And now Amazon is putting all these out of business.

183 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:48:04pm

re: #136 b_sharp

I've done a lot of thinking about my belief system, probably more than most. I didn't pull my belief system out of a popular meme, I worked it out, so them getting me to 'think about it' is a bit condescending.

I have a friend who is a philosopher of science that claims it is impossible to be an atheist because there will always be some doubt. My perspective is, he's demanding more from the definition of atheist than he would from the definition of science. Science doesn't demand 100% surety before adopting an hypothesis, why should atheists need to be 100% sure before concluding there is no god?

You're right there and probably why the anger thing never occurred to me really with my other agnostic/atheist friends.

There is, however, people who have had such miserable experiences with religion, that they come to the conclusion so I can't say that anger doesn't factor into the equation for all non-believers. Surely and without some "proof" of the anger (say molested by clergy) it's a rude thing to assume.

184 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:48:30pm

Letter from Thomas Jefferson to Dr Joseph Priestly

What an effort, my dear Sir, of bigotry in Politics & Religion have we gone through! The barbarians really flattered themselves they should be able to bring back the times of Vandalism, when ignorance put everything into the hands of power & priestcraft. All advances in science were proscribed as innovations. They pretended to praise and encourage education, but it was to be the education of our ancestors. We were to look backwards, not forwards, for improvement; the President himself declaring, in one of his answers to addresses, that we were never to expect to go beyond them in real science.

185 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:49:10pm

re: #179 Alouette

kids are always smarter about culture and movies and entendre than we give them credit for

partially because jokes are set up in such a way as to draw attention to subversive elements, because that's the nature of comedy

once upon a time, I got some detentions for repeating fairly inappropriate lines I heard in horror movies at school *_*

186 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:49:38pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Also check out the thread in the Hot Air Green Room section about the racist Tea Party Email. Predictably most don't seem to understand why depicting a black man as a monkey is racist.

They get it. They just can't admit that they get it, because they've got too much invested in believing that no one on 'their side' ever does anything plain wrong.

187 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:49:57pm

re: #173 reine.de.tout

There used to be a bookstore here called "Little Professor". Small bookstore; and I believe it was part of a chain, but they ran a real bookstore. They hired people who actually READ BOOKS. They had an employee who loved detective/thriller type of fiction and knew all the authors. Ditto science-fiction. Ditto non-fiction. Ditto all the genres. You could go in to that store with a book title, or even a PIECE OF A BOOK TITLE, and there would be someone there who could tell you the full title and the author and whether they had it or could order it.

Out of business now - Borders, BooksAMillion, etc. put those sorts of bookstores exist anymore.

It's happening in my business too, although I'm in a service industry that makes $ on products that I sell.

Now you have big box stores selling electronics at thinner and thinner margins, sometimes staffed by 'experts' and sometimes not even that.

All it does is kill the real profession and remove the choice from the consumer.

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:49:57pm

re: #47 Walter L. Newton

And you never see me slamming whole religions about anything. But when the subject comes up, I will defend my position. That's funny, I was under the impression that all evangelicals are knuckle dragging neanderthals. I wonder where I got that idea from?

Speaking of having it both ways...

189 jaunte  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:50:32pm

Barton pretends everything should operate according to Biblical principles, but he won't go so far as to wear his hair like Jesus.

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:51:42pm

re: #70 allegro

Heh. SFZ called it yesterday. About the 5th comment is this:

I know my wingnuts.

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:52:23pm

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

He was also a believer.

Hence, Maimonides was responsible for David Barton. But does that mean that David Barton is responsible for Maimonides?

192 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:52:54pm

I think religion I guess affects people different. When I was an atheist in middle school and early high school, it was because I felt disgust with the way people used their religion to promote bigotry. Most of the really religious people I knew were some of the most closed minded individuals I ever knew. I started believing in God again I guess when I was in 10-11th grade. It's funny. I never really had much of a Catholic upbringing. Yeah I was baptized and briefly did CCD and all that but I still grew to as I still do feel culturally Catholic. Like even with my current skepticism on religion, I still wear a St. Patrick medallion. Part of me wants to believe in God and a Heaven so I can meet my relatives I never knew but another part of me sees the evils of the world and wonder what God would allow for that. I think I'm Agnostic personally. I did let my Dad whos is sort of spiritual but a former Catholic parochial school student about how from what I've read the Jewish people don't believe in a hell but do a heaven and he said you know what son, they may be on to something there.

193 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:53:00pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

His opinion is backer up by fact. About 75-80% of Americans are Christian. Why wouldn't they just vote in a government of religious figures and priests? Even if the constitution got in the way there would still be an easy majority to repeal the establishment clause. It hasn't happened and it never will happen because the vast majority of religious people in this country don't want a religion based government.

Americans are smarter than we give them credit for.

194 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:53:29pm

re: #181 WindUpBird
I found one a little while ago and I wrote it down and put it in my Rolodex. I just found it. Head House Books.

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:53:47pm

re: #84 marjoriemoon

After the Holocaust, a lot of Jews turned atheist, including many members of that generation in my family - maybe even all, but Judaism is complex as far as there is The Word, but also the culture. My grandfather, born in 1902 in Poland and witnessed a lot of evil acts himself, confessed to me that he didn't believe in God, but yet he said all the prayers at the family gatherings. So to whom was he praying? I concluded that he didn't so much disbelieve as he was angry.

There's a joke that ends "Atheist, schmathiest, that's no reason not to go to shul and daven."

196 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:53:51pm

re: #154 Romantic Heretic

Myself? I'm an agnostic.

From my point of view believers and atheists are flip sides of the same coin. One says there is a God, Allah to Zeus, take your pick. The other says there is not.

Both positions are matters of faith for neither side can offer proof of either the existence or non-existence of God. As I said, it's a matter of faith.

A faith which I lack. So I'm an agnostic, and I'll thank both sides to keep their noses out of my business.

You seem to have missed a couple of my comments.

Specific claims for the existence of god can be tested, such as the efficacy of prayer.

Why should atheists need 100% surety to conclude god does not exist. We accept quantum mechanics yet there is still some doubt about the how.

The claim atheism is based on faith is nonsense.

197 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:53:57pm

re: #182 Alouette

And now Amazon is putting all these out of business.

Not Powells :)

Indie bookstores need to do more than sell books to stay in business. they need to offer experiences impossible on a kindle. Powells is that experience times a thousand. Bookstores aren't just business, they need to be community and culture. They need to get further into the art and into their communities than just hosting readings.


I can walk into Powells tomorrow and leave with a big binder techincal manual of CAD-3D, the original 3d modelling program for the ancient and mostly unknown Atari ST personal computer, I believe, created in the mid 80's. They have one! Within their satellite technical book store, which is as large as a Barnes and Noble. And that's just the tech manuals!

198 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:54:47pm

re: #169 allegro

I can never grieve the loss of a big box store, regardless of the product theme. I DO grieve the loss of the small, family owned businesses that once filled small town downtown shops that are now boarded up since the WalMart et al came to town.

This.

199 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:55:26pm

Hilariously off topic, but we need to have a Genealogical Open Thread at some point.

200 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:55:35pm

gtg bbl.

201 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:56:54pm

re: #197 WindUpBird

Not Powells :)

Indie bookstores need to do more than sell books to stay in business. they need to offer experiences impossible on a kindle. Powells is that experience times a thousand. Bookstores aren't just business, they need to be community and culture. They need to get further into the art and into their communities than just hosting readings.

I can walk into Powells tomorrow and leave with a big binder techincal manual of CAD-3D, the original 3d modelling program for the ancient and mostly unknown Atari ST personal computer, I believe, created in the mid 80's. They have one! Within their satellite technical book store, which is as large as a Barnes and Noble. And that's just the tech manuals!

Nothing beats a book you can read in bed. Hence why I like paperbacks. You can fold them over in half and read one page while you lie in bed on your side. No need to start at the television screen computer monitor. No need to feed the Apple trough and keep Steve Jobs wealthy beyond imagination. No need to "keep up with the Jones" buying the latest Apple gadget that has to be updated and powered.

202 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:57:28pm

re: #169 allegro

I can never grieve the loss of a big box store, regardless of the product theme. I DO grieve the loss of the small, family owned businesses that once filled small town downtown shops that are now boarded up since the WalMart et al came to town.

I agree, but honestly, walmart us part of the problem, every other box store is as well.

Lowes

Home Depot

Best Buy

Pet Smart

babies R Us

and whetever else you can think of

and it'll always be this way until box stores are illegal.

203 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:57:58pm

Technology evangelists. Now there's another annoying modern phenomenon.

204 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:58:15pm

re: #199 ProLifeLiberal

Hilariously off topic, but we need to have a Genealogical Open Thread at some point.

Yeah, that stuff fascinates me too. Found out that my grandmother's maternal grandmother was born in Scotland. We had long thought that side of the family was exclusively Irish though as I pointed out to my brother who I was doing research with, they easily could have been Irish emigrants to Scotland who went there because we theorize that my great great grandmother was born around the time of the famine.

205 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:58:18pm

re: #201 Gus 802

Nothing beats a book you can read in bed. Hence why I like paperbacks. You can fold them over in half and read one page while you lie in bed on your side. No need to start at the television screen computer monitor. No need to feed the Apple trough and keep Steve Jobs wealthy beyond imagination. No need to "keep up with the Jones" buying the latest Apple gadget that has to be updated and powered.

yeah, reading on an ipad, NO. No LCD screen for reading books, not good. eyestrain hell :(

206 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:58:27pm

re: #203 Gus 802

Technology evangelists. Now there's another annoying modern phenomenon.

yessssssssssssssss

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:58:42pm

re: #107 Charles

I feel your pain.

About "nuking the world" -- they're already saying that.

Check this Hot Air comment page, in which a commenter says that when Barack Obama is revealed as the imposter/traitor he is, he'll react by ordering a nuclear strike ... on America.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Pamela Geller has also spread this creepy meme.

It's sort of worrisome, the number of people who seem to think they're living in a badly plotted thriller.

208 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:59:02pm

re: #187 BigPapa

It's happening in my business too, although I'm in a service industry that makes $ on products that I sell.

Now you have big box stores selling electronics at thinner and thinner margins, sometimes staffed by 'experts' and sometimes not even that.

All it does is kill the real profession and remove the choice from the consumer.

Yep.
And the big box stores are not necessarily less expensive.

I wanted new countertops in my kitchen, so I checked Lowe's offerings and made a selection, and went to the computer and put in the measurements I took, which I knew may or may not have been right; AND I wanted a 15" backsplash.

Well: Before they would send an expert out to take real measurements, they wanted me to put up 1/2 my estimated cost FIRST, AND they told me I could not have a 15" backsplash, it could be no more than 4". WTF?

I got pissed off and called a local company that installs countertops. They came RIGHT out, did the measurements, gave me an estimate, talked to me about how they would handle the problem areas I had AND told me I could indeed have a 15" backsplash if that's what I wanted. And it came to $2000 less than the Lowe's estimate. That's not an insubstantial difference.

209 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:59:18pm

re: #204 HappyWarrior

I'm the world's biggest mutt. No nationality accounts for majority of lineage. Largest is under 40%

210 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:59:40pm

re: #182 Alouette

And now Amazon is putting all these out of business.

And Best Buy. Best Buy is referred to in many circles as "Amazon.com's Show Room."

211 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:59:43pm

re: #203 Gus 802

Technology evangelists. Now there's another annoying modern phenomenon.

anyone else checking out this class action lawsuit vs Apple?


My friends the iphone developers are rooting the suit on, they know ALL ABOUT this shit [Link: arstechnica.com...]

212 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 12:59:53pm

re: #206 WindUpBird

yesss

Worship at the altar of Google, Microsoft, or Apple!

Ollllmmmmmm.

213 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:00:25pm

Kinda OT but I don't see too many people bemoaning the death of the tape and CD with the rise of digital music. I will admit this though. When I make mixes on ITunes, I try to do it like I am making a CD. A nice feature of ITunes though I will say is how it will print out a cover. I've been using my own photographs for album covers. My St. Patrick's Day mix cover is a photo I took in County Kerry while my mix entitled Storeis From The City is a photo I took from the rooftop of a friend's apartment in Brooklyn.

214 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:00:41pm

re: #208 reine.de.tout

So true.

215 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:00:50pm

re: #201 Gus 802

Nothing beats a book you can read in bed. Hence why I like paperbacks. You can fold them over in half and read one page while you lie in bed on your side. No need to start at the television screen computer monitor. No need to feed the Apple trough and keep Steve Jobs wealthy beyond imagination. No need to "keep up with the Jones" buying the latest Apple gadget that has to be updated and powered.

An e-reader works great, and you don't have to worry about breaking the spine.

216 Big Joe  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:01:06pm

Off topic... Ribs so far...

Image: ribs.jpg

217 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:01:09pm

re: #212 Gus 802

Worship at the altar of Google, Microsoft, or Apple!

Olllmmm.

Can I worship at my tiny Wacom altar instead?

if there's a technology I evangelize, it's the Wacom drawing tablet. Changed my life

218 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:01:10pm

re: #215 b_sharp

An e-reader works great, and you don't have to worry about breaking the spine.

Meh. More toys.

219 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:01:51pm

re: #201 Gus 802

Nothing beats a book you can read in bed. Hence why I like paperbacks. You can fold them over in half and read one page while you lie in bed on your side. No need to start at the television screen computer monitor. No need to feed the Apple trough and keep Steve Jobs wealthy beyond imagination. No need to "keep up with the Jones" buying the latest Apple gadget that has to be updated and powered.

I just made Steve Jobs richer.. I made almost a grand cash last week on my part time, off and on, programming gig for Kaiser... so, I took a bit of that unexpected money and upgraded myself... to an Ipod Touch 4th generation.

Goody... ISO 4.3.2 here I come.

I've never been a big fan of Apple computers, but the Touch is a gem, no two ways about it.

220 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:02:22pm

re: #209 ProLifeLiberal

I'm the world's biggest mutt. No nationality accounts for majority of lineage. Largest is under 40%

Yeah same with me. I considered myself more less a "pie" though until I found out about the Scots. Since it was 25-25-25-25 down the line. A guy I know who understands German and German surnames told me he was perplexed by my surname until I mentioned the long rumors of Swiss-German. I don't know. I would love to hire a professional genealogist but with a student's salary that's tough. Been trying to get relatives interested in it though.

221 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:02:54pm

re: #218 Gus 802

Meh. More toys.

What's wrong with toys?

222 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:03:25pm

re: #217 WindUpBird

Can I worship at my tiny Wacom altar instead?

if there's a technology I evangelize, it's the Wacom drawing tablet. Changed my life

I had one for a bit but I forgot why I returned it. Maybe my mouse went out or something. I'll try it again.

223 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:03:33pm

re: #218 Gus 802

Meh. More toys.

I love my Kindle.
Love love love love it.

224 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:03:56pm

re: #220 HappyWarrior

There's one of those? I want hire one eventually too now. I can only account for something like 85-90% of my genealogy.

225 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:04:18pm

re: #221 b_sharp

What's wrong with toys?

Nothing. Just that Americans are defined by their gadgets and the overt consumerism. Everything is about buying crap.

226 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:04:27pm

re: #208 reine.de.tout

Hiya Toots! I sell countertops too.

I sell them consistently, even though I am consistently higher than Big Boxes in pricing. It's all about showing up and showing folks that you can handle their problems.

The rest is easy.

227 jaunte  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:05:06pm

re: #217 WindUpBird

I like the Wacom, helps with my rsi to work either right handed or left-handed.

228 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:05:55pm

re: #213 HappyWarrior

Kinda OT but I don't see too many people bemoaning the death of the tape and CD with the rise of digital music. I will admit this though. When I make mixes on ITunes, I try to do it like I am making a CD. A nice feature of ITunes though I will say is how it will print out a cover. I've been using my own photographs for album covers. My St. Patrick's Day mix cover is a photo I took in County Kerry while my mix entitled Storeis From The City is a photo I took from the rooftop of a friend's apartment in Brooklyn.

Awesome! keeping the idea of an "album" is important to me.

the song-by-song thing itunes and mp3-players have popularized is the opposite of how I listen to music. i listen to albums, full records because when you listen to weirdo outsider bands, you are basically into the whole experience. Some of these songs are 20 minutes long apiece.

I don't hardly ever use Itunes, I use a service called emusic which eschews DRM, is a lot cheaper and sends more money to its artists, and I buy albums at a time, never individual songs

Itunes is occasionally good for the odd thing I want, but usually I either buy the CD by mail order because I want all the art and such, or I go on emusic because paradoxically it's cheaper and yet the artist cut is larger than itunes.

229 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:06:12pm

re: #216 mracb

disgusting.
/

230 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:06:35pm

re: #219 Walter L. Newton

I just made Steve Jobs richer.. I made almost a grand cash last week on my part time, off and on, programming gig for Kaiser... so, I took a bit of that unexpected money and upgraded myself... to an Ipod Touch 4th generation.

Goody... ISO 4.3.2 here I come.

I've never been a big fan of Apple computers, but the Touch is a gem, no two ways about it.

The touch is a gem *_*

ITUNES SUCKS, but the Ipod touch rules, I use it daily for several different tasks

231 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:07:14pm

re: #227 jaunte

I like the Wacom, helps with my rsi to work either right handed or left-handed.

yeah! you could probably score a cheap cintiq on ebay these days, prices, they are goin' down *_*

232 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:07:20pm

re: #224 ProLifeLiberal

There's one of those? I want hire one eventually too now. I can only account for something like 85-90% of my genealogy.

Yeah I think you can hire people to do family trees. As with most historical research, the more I learn, the more I want to know. Like for example, I saw on the 1930 census form for my mom's mom that the primary language of her parents was listed as Russian which struck us as odd given that my great grandparents on that side were Czechoslovakian and thus products of the former Austro-Hungarian empire at the time of their births. There is the family story about my great grandfather going to Russia as a boy which puzzles me further since the Czech Republic and Slovakia as I said were part of the Austrian-Hungarian empire and are closer to Vienna. I've been to Bratislava. It's not that far away from Vienna at all yet he want to Russia. This combined with some other stuff has me suspecting that there's some Russian/Ukrainian ties in there somehwere.

233 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:07:22pm

re: #218 Gus 802

Meh. More toys.

What's wrong with toys? If you're making a lot of money, paying your obligations, not spending every last penny, a toy at times is fine.

I'm not making a lot of money right now, I still make sure I take care of my obligations first, I don't spend every last penny, and if an opportunity comes along like last week, an unexpected grand, I look over what needs to be, and if I see a toy in the mix, I get the toy...

I like toys... tech toys and even toys literally... I'll spend 3 dollars on an actual toy if it amuses me and I'm not just wasting needed money.

A toy doesn't have to be wasteful or expensive. Self pleasure is worth it's wieght in good health.

234 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:07:55pm

re: #226 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hiya Toots! I sell countertops too.

I sell them consistently, even though I am consistently higher than Big Boxes in pricing. It's all about showing up and showing folks that you can handle their problems.

The rest is easy.

EXACTLY, FBV!
Through Lowe's, I couldn't even get in touch with anyone who could talk to me about my problem areas, or that damned 15" backsplash, UNTIL I had paid them 1/2 the estimate FIRST. Well, I was not about to part with any money UNTIL I knew I would be able to get what I wanted, and that the problem areas could be worked out with minimum fuss & bother. Which they could be, according to the counter company, but NOT according to Lowe's. pfft. Lowe's was telling me I would have to remove my WALLS in order to have the granite installed. geez. No way.

235 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:09:05pm

re: #222 Gus 802

I had one for a bit but I forgot why I returned it. Maybe my mouse went out or something. I'll try it again.

I would recommend looking around for something at least 6x8, I had a 4x5 graphire and it was actually cramping my hands to use it because it wa slike doing all my art on a note card

then I got a used, beat to shit Cintiq 15x, and the real fun began *_*

236 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:09:44pm

re: #235 WindUpBird

I would recommend looking around for something at least 6x8, I had a 4x5 graphire and it was actually cramping my hands to use it because it wa slike doing all my art on a note card

then I got a used, beat to shit Cintiq 15x, and the real fun began *_*

I think that was it. Couldn't afford the bigger one so I got the smaller one which was too small.

237 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:09:50pm

Olllmmmm.

238 jaunte  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:10:29pm

re: #234 reine.de.tout

I just got back from standing around in Lowes unsuccessfully looking for someone to take a lumber order. I decided just to go to the lumberyard on Monday.

239 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:10:35pm

re: #236 Gus 802

I think that was it. Couldn't afford the bigger one so I got the smaller one which was too small.

yes, my mistake as well :P

An Intuos 2 will be pretty cheap (they';re up to the Intuos 4 which is overkill) and you cna get them in all kind of insane sizes. And the 2 has all the power you'll ever need

240 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:11:51pm

re: #225 Gus 802

Nothing. Just that Americans are defined by their gadgets and the overt consumerism. Everything is about buying crap.

That's true of the western world. I'm not defined by the gadgets I buy, but by the gadgets I use.

I tell myself that every day.

241 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:12:25pm

re: #222 Gus 802

I had one for a bit but I forgot why I returned it. Maybe my mouse went out or something. I'll try it again.

Olllmmm.

242 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:12:33pm

re: #226 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hiya Toots! I sell countertops too.

I sell them consistently, even though I am consistently higher than Big Boxes in pricing. It's all about showing up and showing folks that you can handle their problems.

The rest is easy.

Wouldn't a counter top be a bottom?

243 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:12:50pm

re: #241 Walter L. Newton

Olllmmm.

Ollllllllmmmmmmmmna.

244 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:13:27pm

re: #243 Gus 802

Olllmmmna.

Always have to get the last mantra in, don't you :)

245 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:13:42pm

re: #234 reine.de.tout

Those Big Box folks make 8-10 bucks an hour. Don't be surprised when they aren't Bob Villa.

The funny thing? The Big Boxes are still GIGANTIC! People don't tend to research as thoroughly as you did, and get into the middle of it and lose their minds! "I've seen things that would turn you white!"

246 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:13:48pm

Oh man I don't know where I'd be without my iPod. I remember when I was a kid in the mid 90's being amazed at CD players that could play six CDs at a time. Now I have over 16,000 songs on a device that I can put in my pocket. I am not part of the cult of Apple but hte iPod and MP3 player as a whole are wonderful, wonderful products.

247 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:13:48pm

re: #208 reine.de.tout

That's surprising, but the perception that the large stores are cheaper is ever present.

I've created proposals for elaborate electronic systems and have had very wealthy clients ask why I couldn't purchase Vizio TV's at Costco.

248 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:15:16pm

re: #247 BigPapa

That's surprising, but the perception that the large stores are cheaper is ever present.

I've created proposals for elaborate electronic systems and have had very wealthy clients ask why I couldn't purchase Vizio TV's at Costco.

people are so funny

249 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:16:37pm

re: #238 jaunte

I just got back from standing around in Lowes unsuccessfully looking for someone to take a lumber order. I decided just to go to the lumberyard on Monday.

I prefer Home Despot.

250 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:17:01pm

re: #246 HappyWarrior

Oh man I don't know where I'd be without my iPod. I remember when I was a kid in the mid 90's being amazed at CD players that could play six CDs at a time. Now I have over 16,000 songs on a device that I can put in my pocket. I am not part of the cult of Apple but hte iPod and MP3 player as a whole are wonderful, wonderful products.

I will say this: I prefer having a dedicated boring MP3 player for the car. The ipod touch has this ONE thing it does I hate, that album view flip thing that it does whenever the device is horizontal

everything else, it rules. I wish I could kill that album flip thing to death

251 jaunte  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:17:23pm

re: #249 Gus 802

They're actually closer, but they didn't have the cedar.

252 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:17:50pm

Hmm....this might just seem to apply here...

Image: 080424-holy-bible-550.jpg

253 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:18:18pm

re: #248 WindUpBird

people are so funny

People are also... well... ... stupid?...

254 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:18:43pm

re: #251 jaunte

They're actually closer, but they didn't have the cedar.

Mmm cedar. They used that a lot in South Jersey. Of course there's also a lot of naturally growing cedar in the area.

255 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:21:07pm

re: #253 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

People are also... well... ... stupid?...

you win ^_^


I loved Stanley Spadowski, I don't care how much of an ass Michael Richards was, that guy is too funny to believe

256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:24:50pm

re: #255 WindUpBird

you win ^_^

What do I win?

257 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:26:51pm

re: #250 WindUpBird

I will say this: I prefer having a dedicated boring MP3 player for the car. The ipod touch has this ONE thing it does I hate, that album view flip thing that it does whenever the device is horizontal

everything else, it rules. I wish I could kill that album flip thing to death

In 3rd Gen there's an orientation lock.

258 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:33:29pm

re: #218 Gus 802

Meh. More toys.

My sentiment exactly until I serendipitously got an Android-powered smartphone and realized it's the closest thing to a Tricorder I'm likely to see unless I live till the 24th Century. And you can (relatively) easily write your own apps for it using Java.

A device I viewed as frivolous fewer than 6 months ago has become one of those things that I would hate having to go without.

259 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:35:58pm

re: #252 ausador

Hmm...this might just seem to apply here...

Image: 080424-holy-bible-550.jpg

Frank Zappa's version of the Tipper Sticker, circa 1986.

Image: warning_sticker.jpg

260 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 1:36:46pm

re: #257 goddamnedfrank

In 3rd Gen there's an orientation lock.

fuck :(

261 hellosnackbar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 11:03:14am

American Taliban?
I seem to recall that it was Richard Dawkins?? coined that description of daft
Christian fundamentalists;and was castigated for exaggeration.
Seems that this lad Barton ticks all the boxes!
The lunacy gets more extreme by the day!
At one time hot air seemed an entertaining polemic;but the right seems to have
fallen of the cliff of reason.


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