Al Gore: The Epic Battle Against Energy Industry Lobbyists

The Republican Party’s total war on the environment
Environment • Views: 33,985

Al Gore gave a speech at Power Shift 2011, a conference for student activists, and stated some powerful truths that will now be mocked and derided by the ignorant, anti-science right wing: Gore to young advocates: Battle industry lobbyists to turn the tide on climate.

“It’s true that governments by and large have been politically paralyzed because the energy companies, the coal companies, the oil companies, the coal-burning utilities, they have spent enormous amounts of money and they have succeeded in many countries in paralyzing the political process,” the former vice president said.

“There are four anti-climate lobbyists on Capitol Hill in this city for every single member of the House and every single member of the Senate,” Gore said Friday night at the opening of the April 15-18 conference.

“What is the answer for this?” Gore asked. “It has to come from you. It has to come at the grassroots level. It has to come from young people, and I believe that you are up to it and that you can do it.” …

Gore said it’s vital to continue pushing for policies that would put a monetary cost on industrial emissions. “Putting a price on carbon” is the goal of cap-and-trade plans and other proposals to ensure emissions cuts, but such measures face gigantic hurdles in the current Congress.

Gore said the Civil Rights movement was fueled by youth questioning their parents about legal discrimination, and he drew a link to climate change.

“When they could not answer that moral question coming straight from the conscience of young people, that is when the laws began to change,” Gore said. “You need to ask, ‘tell me again why its al right to put 90 million tons of global warming pollution into the atmosphere every 24 hours, 20 percent of it will still be there in 20,000 years.’”

“You need to ask that question and other related questions. Don’t they see the evidence, don’t they hear what the scientists are saying, do they actually believe this lying from the large carbon polluters, that the scientists are making this up?” Gore added.

I’ve done my share of Gore-bashing in the past, and it hasn’t always been unwarranted, but he deserves a lot of respect for fighting back against the big corporations who are trying to mislead America into the disastrous mistake of ignoring the inevitable consequences of climate change.

If the human race survives its own nest-fouling, we’ll owe a debt of gratitude to people like Al Gore.

UPDATE at 4/17/11 6:57:48 pm

And speaking of ignoramuses, wingnut blogger Ed Morrissey responds to this call for action by posting a photo of the snow on his porch. Take that, stupid scientists!

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486 comments
1 darthstar  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 6:55:54pm
If the human race survives its own nest-fouling, we’ll owe a debt of gratitude to people like Al Gore.

True, but all the fuckers who have knee-jerk reactions to him and use "invented the internet" as an excuse to dismiss everything he says, or how many square feet his house is to label him a hypocrite, or just think he's boring...all those fuckers will have to die before Al Gore is fully recognized for his contribution to society.

2 Artist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 6:57:28pm

re: #1 darthstar

This.

3 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 6:59:04pm

Wealthy polluters like the Koch brothers sabotage climate change action for the money. You also have religious fanatics who believe God will swoop down from the heavens and save the true believers. To them, I offer the following parable:

A wealthy builder builds two homes. He puts all he has in them as he knows that a family will stay in each. He chooses as wisely as he can to find the best occupants. He leaves them with the request that they treat their home well as respect to him and his work, and that he will return and show them kindness for doing it.

One family neglects that home and ruins it inside and out. They leave it trashed, smelling and torn down. The necessities like heat, electric and water not even working properly. In contrast, the other home is well maintained. It is clean and orderly. It is loved. This family looks forward to the day its owner comes back to check on it. They want him to see it just as it was left to them.

The day comes when the owner does return. To the family that respected his words, he leaves the home for good to them. They are truly blessed. But for the other, this owner has no remorse, for he kicks them out, evicting them. What does this illustration mean to us you may ask? Now you may or may not believe that an almighty God exists; I happen to believe so. And he is the wealthy builder in my story. We are the tenants. Which tenant shall we be then?

Someone should ask the anti-environment "believers" that question.

4 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:02:33pm

re: #1 darthstar

True, but all the fuckers who have knee-jerk reactions to him and use "invented the internet" as an excuse to dismiss everything he says, or how many square feet his house is to label him a hypocrite, or just think he's boring...all those fuckers will have to die before Al Gore is fully recognized for his contribution to society.

Oh, don't worry, they'll raise new fuckers. :) Fools full of hate? They raise kids just like themselves, seen it first hand

5 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:02:54pm

re: #1 darthstar

True, but all the fuckers who have knee-jerk reactions to him and use "invented the internet" as an excuse to dismiss everything he says, or how many square feet his house is to label him a hypocrite, or just think he's boring...all those fuckers will have to die before Al Gore is fully recognized for his contribution to society.

As somebody who will occasionally have fun at his expense for inventing the internet... don't take that from me. That canard is still good enough for cheap fun, but not for serious discussion. He still has his flaws, but over time they seem to be of insignificant consequence.

I cannot dismiss everything he says any more, it's been some time since I could. I'm in Charle's boat: I gotta give the guy some more credit.

6 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:05:08pm

re: #1 darthstar

True, but all the fuckers who have knee-jerk reactions to him and use "invented the internet" as an excuse to dismiss everything he says, or how many square feet his house is to label him a hypocrite, or just think he's boring...all those fuckers will have to die before Al Gore is fully recognized for his contribution to society.

I find Gore to be much more likeable and useful now that he's no longer in politics.

7 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:05:09pm

re: #3 publicityStunted

Wealthy polluters like the Koch brothers sabotage climate change action for the money. You also have religious fanatics who believe God will swoop down from the heavens and save the true believers. To them, I offer the following parable:

Someone should ask the anti-environment "believers" that question.

they wouldn't understand the question

May as well ask a dog the question, the dog is more likely to take it seriously

8 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:07:18pm

re: #6 reine.de.tout

I find Gore to be much more likeable and useful now that he's no longer in politics.

agreed

he was imho, one of the worst democratic presidential candidates of my lifetime. He had it in the bag and he lost to an inferior candidate, because his campaign just SUCKED and he turned his personality into some wooden parody of itself

but I liked him after he left politics, he became charismatic again.

and that's why the dumb beasts hate him so much, because they can't stand that he's A) likable B) brilliant, and C) correct.

9 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:07:46pm

This is just an excuse to post Monckton vs Gore Rap Battle: RAP NEWS

10 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:09:36pm

re: #8 WindUpBird

agreed

he was imho, one of the worst democratic presidential candidates of my lifetime. He had it in the bag and he lost to an inferior candidate, because his campaign just SUCKED and he turned his personality into some wooden parody of itself

but I liked him after he left politics, he became charismatic again.

and that's why the dumb beasts hate him so much, because they can't stand that he's A) likable B) brilliant, and C) correct.

About Gore - I keep thinking - he did not seem very comfortable in politics. I heard, don't know if it's true or not, but I had heard that Gore's political career was his FATHER'S dream for him, not necessarily his own. Anyhow - he's much better out of politics, than he ever was while in it.

11 Big Steve  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:09:50pm

As for Ed Morrissey....be glad to take a picture of my backyard in Galveston in August. As Hank Hill says to neighbor Dale, in King of the Hill, when Dale pooh poohs global warming...."Dale if gets any hotter here, I'm kicking your ass."

12 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:10:56pm

hey you know what i'm sick of?


The inventing the internet shit, because he never said that

he said CREATING

Creation, different word.

WORDS MEAN THINGS, GUYS!!!!!

I can create a pie. I'm not "inventing" it.

I wish people would pay attention to Snopes, but they never do! AND OUR COUNTRY IS DUMBER EACH DAY FOR IT.

13 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:11:07pm

politics beats truth, always

14 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:11:12pm

By the way - jumping in here from the previous thread - if you did not go watch that photographer's other videos, do yourself a huge favor and do it. Just amazing stuff.

15 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:13:49pm

any Republican who harshes on Al Gore about the internet thing, I just do not take them seriously, because it's just the automatic poker tell that they're not adults, not to be taken seriously. Dumb, liars, selfserving, whatever.

it's all over the internet, everywhere I go, people know the truth. But then I go on these right wing blogs, and I watch them bay at the moon, frothing over their Al Gore hate, pathetic and brainwashed fools

16 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:14:47pm

re: #10 reine.de.tout

About Gore - I keep thinking - he did not seem very comfortable in politics. I heard, don't know if it's true or not, but I had heard that Gore's political career was his FATHER'S dream for him, not necessarily his own. Anyhow - he's much better out of politics, than he ever was while in it.

I also agree

it's amazing what happens when you're part of such a powerful family, your life is not your own unless you truly wish to renounce that power.


And we all know people don't like to renounce their power. :)

17 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:15:37pm

re: #12 WindUpBird

hey you know what i'm sick of?

The inventing the internet shit, because he never said that

he said CREATING

Creation, different word.

WORDS MEAN THINGS, GUYS!!!

I can create a pie. I'm not "inventing" it.

I wish people would pay attention to Snopes, but they never do! AND OUR COUNTRY IS DUMBER EACH DAY FOR IT.

He said he helped in the creation by making sure funding was available.

18 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:16:35pm

re: #10 reine.de.tout

About Gore - I keep thinking - he did not seem very comfortable in politics. I heard, don't know if it's true or not, but I had heard that Gore's political career was his FATHER'S dream for him, not necessarily his own. Anyhow - he's much better out of politics, than he ever was while in it.

You know what's cool about Al Gore? He was friends with the guys who started up the Capital Steps, and he even agreed to play "himself" in one or two of their shows!

19 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:16:41pm

My friend's boss created a game. He didn't invent it. he's not a game designer! His team "invented" it. My boss was the guy with the capital to hire people to invent it for him. He gave direction and knew what would sell. he had the power to create that game. he didn't invent it.

Words are great, we should respect their meanings!

20 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:16:47pm

re: #17 b_sharp

He said he helped in the creation by making sure funding was available.

yes!

21 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:17:06pm

re: #8 WindUpBird

agreed

he was imho, one of the worst democratic presidential candidates of my lifetime. He had it in the bag and he lost to an inferior candidate, because his campaign just SUCKED and he turned his personality into some wooden parody of itself

but I liked him after he left politics, he became charismatic again.

and that's why the dumb beasts hate him so much, because they can't stand that he's A) likable B) brilliant, and C) correct.

I presume you're not old enough to remember Mondale or Dukakis? Both made Al look like he ran a tip-top campaign. I did vote for Dukakis but I couldn't bring myself to vote for "Gut Nasa" Mondale or Ronnie. I think that was the first year I voted for the Socialist Party candidate instead.

22 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:17:21pm

Fuck that, I'm gonna look for property on higher ground.

;P

/also good morning

23 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:18:19pm

re: #17 b_sharp

It's as if "inventing the internet" was cooked up in a GOP think tank, because it's a great alliterative slogan. Two of those "in" syllables. it's tailor made for mocking. Like it was created in a lab.

People are so gullible

24 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:19:43pm

Gore was the first presidential candidate I remember really getting interested in. I was 13 and taking civics at the time. I was proud to defend his merits and ideas against Bush's and I still am eleven years later. The man may not be the most charismatic guy in the world but he's done a lot to bring attention to the global warming issue and people who dismiss the issue because they don't like Al are idiots.

25 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:19:55pm

re: #21 wlewisiii

I presume you're not old enough to remember Mondale or Dukakis? Both made Al look like he ran a tip-top campaign. I did vote for Dukakis but I couldn't bring myself to vote for "Gut Nasa" Mondale or Ronnie. I think that was the first year I voted for the Socialist Party candidate instead.

I'm 34, I absolutely remember Mondale and Dukakis. I think Gore was worse. I would watch the mondale and Ferraro debates with my father a s alittle kid. And he'd describe what they appeared to be debating...and then what the real subtext was.

Gore had the potential to kick Bush's ass for drill. Mondale and Dukakis were DOA.


teach your kids to question everything they see, and the motives of every single human being in their lives, they'll thank you after they make their first million

26 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:21:00pm

re: #25 WindUpBird

I'm 34, I absolutely remember Mondale and Dukakis. I think Gore was worse. I would watch the mondale and Ferraro debates with my father a s alittle kid. And he'd describe what they appeared to be debating...and then what the real subtext was.

Gore had the potential to kick Bush's ass for drill. Mondale and Dukakis were DOA.

teach your kids to question everything they see, and the motives of every single human being in their lives, they'll thank you after they make their first million

Every single human being?

I mean, how can we be sure why Grandma gave you the ice cream? Have it x-ray'ed and tested.

27 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:21:30pm

re: #25 WindUpBird

Gore had the potential to kick Bush's ass for drill.

It took either the Supreme Court and/or Ralph Nader to take Gore out.

28 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:21:45pm

re: #23 WindUpBird

It's as if "inventing the internet" was cooked up in a GOP think tank, because it's a great alliterative slogan. Two of those "in" syllables. it's tailor made for mocking. Like it was created in a lab.

People are so gullible

The GOP did invent, indirectly, the 'they changed "global warming" to "climate change" because it wasn't warming' meme.

29 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:23:07pm

"Nest-fouling" - good phrase.

30 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:23:09pm

I do wish Gore had run a better campaign in 2000. It's understandable to give the lefties a hard time who voted for Nader or what happened in Florida even more so but the Clinton administration wasn't exactly unpopular. I think he's better as a spokesman for a cause than he would be president though. I like the guy and all but I think he's found his niche in history and I hope he's happy with that.

31 3cpo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:23:36pm

Water evaporates. Snow falls down. You can't explain that!

32 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:24:21pm

re: #25 WindUpBird

I'm 34, I absolutely remember Mondale and Dukakis. I think Gore was worse. I would watch the mondale and Ferraro debates with my father a s alittle kid. And he'd describe what they appeared to be debating...and then what the real subtext was.

Gore had the potential to kick Bush's ass for drill. Mondale and Dukakis were DOA.

teach your kids to question everything they see, and the motives of every single human being in their lives, they'll thank you after they make their first million

I was only one in '88 WUB but I recall reading that Dukakis had actually been doing quite well at the polls before he flubbed at the debates with Bush I. Agree about Mondale though. I don't think anyone would have beat Reagan in '84.

33 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:24:50pm

re: #10 reine.de.tout

About Gore - I keep thinking - he did not seem very comfortable in politics. I heard, don't know if it's true or not, but I had heard that Gore's political career was his FATHER'S dream for him, not necessarily his own. Anyhow - he's much better out of politics, than he ever was while in it.

Actually, he's lived his entire career in public service, becoming a Congressman at age 28 and then a Senator. His interest in technology influenced him to introduce initiatives promoting technology in government. That's actually the speech he gave when he said "I invented the internet". Anyway, he didn't say that. He said he "created the internet" but he was talking about the government initiatives that he brought to the table. His work in the environment is another life long pursuit.

Gore is a great man and a great public servant.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

34 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:26:38pm

re: #26 EmmmieG

Every single human being?

I mean, how can we be sure why Grandma gave you the ice cream? Have it x-ray'ed and tested.


When i mean "in your lives" I mean day to day. Your boss. Your husband. Your wife. Your coworkers. The company you work for. Your business partners. ESPECIALLY YOUR BUSINESS PARTNERS. Your kids! All parents question the motives of their kids. That's what parents do. I don't mean paranoia. :)


Though your grandma too, if you're my partner's family. My partner's family is a byzantine Dynasty-esque maze of loyalties. , GIANT family, incredibly manipulative, incredibly controlling. Some of them were cool, but some of them are honestly repellent and terrifying. I felt like a country boy amidst all these giant personalities shoving me around

35 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:26:50pm

re: #30 HappyWarrior

Gore though had plenty of problems of his own. For example, he championed his (former) wife's campaign against all sorts of social "evils" that really was part of the whole culture war thing.

His own silver-spoon upraising also kept him kind of aloof. That's what Bill Clinton had over him, Clinton being able to emotionally identify (or, at least portray that he could) with people from more humble beginnings.

36 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:27:38pm

re: #32 HappyWarrior

I was only one in '88 WUB but I recall reading that Dukakis had actually been doing quite well at the polls before he flubbed at the debates with Bush I. Agree about Mondale though. I don't think anyone would have beat Reagan in '84.

I never believed in dukakis, I just assumed Bush had the reagan machine and that polls would lose to campaign infrastructure and the general Reagan ride

probably because my father told me that, ahahaha :D

37 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:28:51pm

re: #35 freetoken

Gore though had plenty of problems of his own. For example, he championed his (former) wife's campaign against all sorts of social "evils" that really was part of the whole culture war thing.

His own silver-spoon upraising also kept him kind of aloof. That's what Bill Clinton had over him, Clinton being able to emotionally identify (or, at least portray that he could) with people from more humble beginnings.

yeah, it didn't help that Tipper Gore is one of the more disgusting human beings on earth, seriously, what a colostomy bag, one of those real honest nazi types

38 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:29:08pm

re: #37 WindUpBird

and yeah, i godwined that shit. Zappa was right.

39 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:29:40pm

re: #35 freetoken

Gore though had plenty of problems of his own. For example, he championed his (former) wife's campaign against all sorts of social "evils" that really was part of the whole culture war thing.

His own silver-spoon upraising also kept him kind of aloof. That's what Bill Clinton had over him, Clinton being able to emotionally identify (or, at least portray that he could) with people from more humble beginnings.

Oh, no doubt about that. And yeah one of the things historically speaking I am not fond of him on is what he and Tipper did in the 80's. Agree about the aloofness too but ironically speaking I prefer someone who is true to themselves rather than being a phony populist.

40 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:29:58pm

re: #25 WindUpBird

I'm 34, I absolutely remember Mondale and Dukakis. I think Gore was worse. I would watch the mondale and Ferraro debates with my father a s alittle kid. And he'd describe what they appeared to be debating...and then what the real subtext was.

Gore had the potential to kick Bush's ass for drill. Mondale and Dukakis were DOA.

I can understand what you're saying and '84 was the absolute low point of the Democratic Party in the 20th Century. However, had Dukakis run a decent campaign and hammered the snot our of Iran-Contra he could have won the election. Instead he road on a tank like a dufus, came out even worse at the debates and provided the blue print for the modern political ad with Mr. Horton. Feh.

41 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:30:19pm

re: #33 marjoriemoon


Gore is a great man and a great public servant.

This.

42 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:30:44pm

re: #36 WindUpBird

I never believed in dukakis, I just assumed Bush had the reagan machine and that polls would lose to campaign infrastructure and the general Reagan ride

probably because my father told me that, ahahaha :D

I just remember reading somewhere that Dukakis had a chance but then he fucked up at the debates. No idea. As I said, I was one and cared more about what Big Bird and company were doing in '88 than the presidential race.

43 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:30:56pm

re: #40 wlewisiii

I can understand what you're saying and '84 was the absolute low point of the Democratic Party in the 20th Century. However, had Dukakis run a decent campaign and hammered the snot our of Iran-Contra he could have won the election. Instead he road on a tank like a dufus, came out even worse at the debates and provided the blue print for the modern political ad with Mr. Horton. Feh.

too many mistakes AND no monentum from the previous president. He wa son the defensive from go

44 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:32:06pm

re: #42 HappyWarrior

I just remember reading somewhere that Dukakis had a chance but then he fucked up at the debates. No idea. As I said, I was one and cared more about what Big Bird and company were doing in '88 than the presidential race.

I was old enough to be interested in politics, because I thought sports were stupid. I loved competition! But competition base don physical ability meant little to me. So I got interested in the maze of politics early

I credit Bloom County for helping me out

45 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:32:09pm

That's something very important about American politics, btw.

Of the post WWII presidents, only 2 (before GWB) were from privileged backgrounds: JFK and GHWB. Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton all had very ordinary and quite humble beginnings. Ike and JBL were not scions of a pseudo-royalty either. And the along comes Obama, another winner who started life from very lowly beginnings.

That's why so many people couldn't identify with Kerry - he and his wife especially come across as being part of the nobility.

46 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:33:32pm

re: #45 freetoken

hahaha OH GOD Kerry's wife was awful in public. AWFUL, came across like Cruella De Ville

47 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:34:02pm

re: #34 WindUpBird

When i mean "in your lives" I mean day to day. Your boss. Your husband. Your wife. Your coworkers. The company you work for. Your business partners. ESPECIALLY YOUR BUSINESS PARTNERS. Your kids! All parents question the motives of their kids. That's what parents do. I don't mean paranoia. :)

Though your grandma too, if you're my partner's family. My partner's family is a byzantine Dynasty-esque maze of loyalties. , GIANT family, incredibly manipulative, incredibly controlling. Some of them were cool, but some of them are honestly repellent and terrifying. I felt like a country boy amidst all these giant personalities shoving me around

How sad. My grandmother just gave out ice cream and hugs.

48 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:36:50pm

re: #40 wlewisiii

I can understand what you're saying and '84 was the absolute low point of the Democratic Party in the 20th Century. However, had Dukakis run a decent campaign and hammered the snot our of Iran-Contra he could have won the election. Instead he road on a tank like a dufus, came out even worse at the debates and provided the blue print for the modern political ad with Mr. Horton. Feh.


I watched a documentary Tuesday evening about Oliver North's run for senate here in Virginia. Yikes, did my state dodge a bullet that year or what. And that election is why I never hated or disliked John Warner when he was senator here, he refused to endorse North.

49 jaunte  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:38:14pm

re: #35 freetoken

Gore though had plenty of problems of his own. For example, he championed his (former) wife's campaign against all sorts of social "evils" that really was part of the whole culture war thing.

However, this would still be true even if Al Gore didn't exist:

“There are four anti-climate lobbyists on Capitol Hill in this city for every single member of the House and every single member of the Senate,”
50 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:39:56pm

The thing I've noticed about most successful presidential candidates of privilege in recent history exempting G.H.W Bush is most of them were able to somewhat convey an everyday man type of image for themselves. Bush was better than Kerry at this even though Bush came from a more well to do background. The old saying is that politics is theatre and that applied well here.

51 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:41:07pm

re: #47 EmmmieG

How sad. My grandmother just gave out ice cream and hugs.

Mine did! My grandmother drove a V8 thunderbird and was the best hugger ever. Miss her terribly.

There are no real power structures in my family. We just live our lives like nerds. My mother crafts and runs her disney fanclub things, my dad practices law full time (he's in his 70's) and writes his novel, my brother raises his kid and plays in his folk band, my sister in law works for NOAA as a scientist SPECIFICALLY on the impact of AGW on fish populations, she travels to Alaska on science vessels constantly. She's a golden goddess who's doing good work that is very stressful and difficult. And I make art. Thats' my family. Most of my extended family I see once a year, and they majority of them work in construction. They're all wonderful people I have nothing in common with.

I think it's my sister in law that really helped me become totally intolerant of AGW denial. It's like I'm listening to people tell me that I have four bodily humors. Like I'm talking to some madman from the dark ages. Some rube some hipster, some joke on some message board who sells shoes or saws wood, who thinks he's a fucking scientist? Nothing but contempt and disgust. Dark ages slugs.

52 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:41:42pm

re: #49 jaunte

However, this would still be true even if Al Gore didn't exist:

we really may be fucked as a species :(

53 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:41:57pm

re: #52 WindUpBird

we really may be fucked as a species :(

or at least, drastically wounded

54 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:43:25pm

re: #32 HappyWarrior

I was only one in '88 WUB but I recall reading that Dukakis had actually been doing quite well at the polls before he flubbed at the debates with Bush I. Agree about Mondale though. I don't think anyone would have beat Reagan in '84.

I just finished this book; The Clothes Have No Emperor.

That author's take was that Bush Sr.'s team found the perfect thing to undermine Dukakis: Willie Horton and the fact that Boston Harbour was seriously polluted.

It made Dukakis sound like a hypocrite on environmentalism, and Horton raised the spectre of black rapists running amok.

Dukakis never really faced thse things as I recall, and so he lost.

55 jaunte  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:43:40pm

re: #52 WindUpBird

It's a good stat to know, though, Gore did everyone a service with that remark.
Being reminded the 'corporate citizens' are paying to have their voices heard and their needs met might help encourage some regular citizens to do the same.

56 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:44:16pm

re: #41 WindUpBird

This.

Not to mention his decision to fight in a war he didn't believe in to spare another from being drafted.

Great Gore article:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

But the conclusion, obvious to others long before he reconciled himself to going to Vietnam, was that he could never seem to stop thinking about the boys his age back in Tennessee, where he was registered for the draft.

The teenagers he had spent summers with did not have the options he and his Harvard buddies had. The guys who had worked alongside him cutting tobacco on the family farm were not thinking, Hmm, body bag or divinity school? And he kept coming back to that.

"He said that if he found a fancy way of not going, someone else would have to go in his place," recalled his college housemate, the actor Tommy Lee Jones.

57 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:45:01pm

re: #55 jaunte

It's a good stat to know, though, Gore did everyone a service with that remark.
Being reminded the 'corporate citizens' are paying to have their voices heard and their needs met might help encourage some regular citizens to do the same.

I just don't know if there's a way to kill the lobbying influence. Too many powerful energy industry machines that can't be stopped, and if they can't be stopped, we're done.

58 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:45:57pm

re: #55 jaunte

Being reminded the 'corporate citizens' are paying to have their voices heard and their needs met might help encourage some regular citizens to do the same.

The best term I ever heard for those types is killionaires.

Killionaire Koch Brothers. Even has alliteration. They should always be referred to as such.

59 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:46:12pm

re: #50 HappyWarrior

The thing I've noticed about most successful presidential candidates of privilege in recent history exempting G.H.W Bush is most of them were able to somewhat convey an everyday man type of image for themselves. Bush was better than Kerry at this even though Bush came from a more well to do background. The old saying is that politics is theatre and that applied well here.

No matter what else, everyone knew that G.H.W Bush joined the Navy and put his ass out there when he didn't have to. I will always respect that he was out there flying Grumman TBF's in combat. Because WWII didn't have the cultural baggage of Vietnam, it was a help for him rather than a hinderance which Kerry's service (and it's controversial aftermath) was.

60 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:46:27pm

re: #54 Romantic Heretic

I just finished this book; The Clothes Have No Emperor.

That author's take was that Bush Sr.'s team found the perfect thing to undermine Dukakis: Willie Horton and the fact that Boston Harbour was seriously polluted.

It made Dukakis sound like a hypocrite on environmentalism, and Horton raised the spectre of black rapists running amok.

Dukakis never really faced thse things as I recall, and so he lost.

Interesting, knew about the Horton case but had no idea about the Boston Harbor issue.

61 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:47:15pm

re: #54 Romantic Heretic

That author's take was that Bush Sr.'s team found the perfect thing to undermine Dukakis: Willie Horton and the fact that Boston Harbour was seriously polluted.

Ahhh Willie Horton, Bush Sr getting a little of that old Jesse Helms racial magic in that old straw hat he found

White republicans always love a black devil

62 Digital Display  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:47:21pm

re: #44 WindUpBird

I was old enough to be interested in politics, because I thought sports were stupid. I loved competition! But competition base don physical ability meant little to me. So I got interested in the maze of politics early

I credit Bloom County for helping me out

My dear brother...I love sports...I grew up loving sports...
I wasn't even adopted till I was 12.. I had passion to compete against kids...Cause I pretty much hated everybody at that point...
I regret I never studied and being smart young...

63 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:48:18pm

re: #59 wlewisiii

No matter what else, everyone knew that G.H.W Bush joined the Navy and put his ass out there when he didn't have to. I will always respect that he was out there flying Grumman TBF's in combat. Because WWII didn't have the cultural baggage of Vietnam, it was a help for him rather than a hinderance which Kerry's service (and it's controversial aftermath) was.

Agree with that about H.W Bush. It's something I respect him for. He's been a good statesman since leaving office too.

64 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:51:15pm

re: #62 HoosierHoops

My dear brother...I love sports...I grew up loving sports...
I wasn't even adopted till I was 12.. I had passion to compete against kids...Cause I pretty much hated everybody at that point...
I regret I never studied and being smart young...

Well, my background's a thing. I'm a skinny guy who's had a great deal of physical health problems that made it completely unable for me to compete in most sports. back problems, balance problems. And ex football coaches as PE teachers who just shouted and screamed at everyone pointlessly

I later became a Seattle Supersonics fan as a teen and went to a few games each season, but only after I got a variance so I'd never have to take PE again, and lost my sourness towards sports. I just told them I'd exercise at home and record it, which I soooorta did. Rode a lot of BMX bike miles on trails in my neighborhood.

Glued to my seat for the Bulls/Sonics finals. Crushed on Detlef Schrempf. :D

65 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:51:30pm

re: #63 HappyWarrior

Agree with that about H.W Bush. It's something I respect him for. He's been a good statesman since leaving office too.

Image: TBF_GeorgeBush.jpg

66 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:54:48pm

re: #62 HoosierHoops

after the fifth time the big guy in the PE class puts you down on your back at home because you're wearing a back brace and he elbows you just right? And the coach just does that big retard ex football coach thing?


You'd think sports were stupid too :)

So I told my doctor I was having vertigo issues related to being forced into PE class with a back brace. Which was easier than saying I was getting beat up and the coach was laughing at the heavy metal weakling. And then my parents just called up the school and said "we're done with PE and that meathead you call a teacher."

67 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:55:17pm

re: #64 WindUpBird

turns out your inner ear is pretty important to balance!

68 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:55:32pm

Speaking of climate change and dealing with it - the Japanese will now not only not agree to an extension of the Kyoto Accord but they will probably have to up their carbon output if they replace the downed nuclear plant with fossil fuel consuming generators.

69 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:56:24pm

And I am also quite convinced that the world will only stop burning fossil fuels when we run out of them.

70 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:57:05pm

re: #67 WindUpBird

turns out your inner ear is pretty important to balance!

Ask anyone with Menier's syndrome.

71 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:57:34pm

re: #66 WindUpBird

after the fifth time the big guy in the PE class puts you down on your back at home because you're wearing a back brace and he elbows you just right? And the coach just does that big retard ex football coach thing?

You'd think sports were stupid too :)

So I told my doctor I was having vertigo issues related to being forced into PE class with a back brace. Which was easier than saying I was getting beat up and the coach was laughing at the heavy metal weakling. And then my parents just called up the school and said "we're done with PE and that meathead you call a teacher."

I was the geek who got beat up and abused until grade 11.

72 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:58:07pm

Didn't GHW Bush's dad's company fund the Nazis?

/checking

73 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:58:08pm

re: #70 EmmmieG

Ask anyone with Menier's syndrome.

Doc from Venture Bros has it, know all about it

74 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:58:33pm

Zedushka and the two grandsons finished the search for chametz (crusts of bread) The boys found 8 pieces, Zedushka found two.

My daughter was cooking all day, while I shopped (for food). She has crashed for the night. She has to get up early to pick up her husband and two oldest sons, coming in on Amtrak. I still have to buy another roll of Reynolds foil, to cover the oven doors, and some half-gallon plastic pitchers to store the gallons of chicken soup.

I might put in half a day of work by logging into my work PC using remote desktop and a SecureID token.

75 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:58:51pm

re: #33 marjoriemoon

Actually, he's lived his entire career in public service, becoming a Congressman at age 28 and then a Senator. His interest in technology influenced him to introduce initiatives promoting technology in government. That's actually the speech he gave when he said "I invented the internet". Anyway, he didn't say that. He said he "created the internet" but he was talking about the government initiatives that he brought to the table. His work in the environment is another life long pursuit.

Gore is a great man and a great public servant.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I don't care about the internet stuff.

As far as his public career - I was not an elected official, but I worked in the public sector, and worked for a few elected officials, and I have respect for the offices, and for most of the people as well. I still believe, however, that his public service career was his dad's dream for him, not necessarily his own, but that doesn't take away from the difficulty of that sort of work or the fact that he served.

As to Gore being a great man - well, ya know . . . I'm reserving judgment for now. We'll see. He's been an effective man, generally, in whatever he's pursued, that I can agree on.

76 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 7:59:46pm

'Three Cups of Tea': Served with a grain of salt?Fact checking opportunities available.

77 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:00:32pm

re: #71 b_sharp

I was the geek who got beat up and abused until grade 11.

For me it was until grade 10, grade 10 was awesome because I found the best thing on earth: THE COMPUTER LAB. Run by a wizard C++ programmer who was an aggressively geek-protective mamabear lesbian with a mullet. who was my hero. Still is.

No more jocks, no more idiots. No more fat ex football players whose glory days are dead, taking it out on students. Just hang out in the lab and make things. And of course play networked Doom deathmatch from hidden folders on the 386s :D

78 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:01:19pm

When I look at this in the context of the recent hoopla by the GOP regarding the AARP as a lobbying group I can only shake my head. Oil and gas is listed as number 6 in lobbying spending at Opensecrets (1998-2010):

Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $2,080,310,642
Insurance $1,499,511,977
Electric Utilities $1,417,711,382
Business Associations $1,178,337,881
Computers/Internet $1,141,987,417
Oil & Gas $1,075,654,908

Total lobbying expenditures by oil and gas for 2010 was $146,577,043.

Then after all of talk of removing lobbying interests in DC all we've seen instead has been a steady increase in lobbying spending.

Lobbying "buys" influences and affects legislation. Unless there is counter lobbying from environmental groups the oil and gas industry tends to get here way.

79 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:04:13pm

re: #78 Gus 802

When I look at this in the context of the recent hoopla by the GOP regarding the AARP as a lobbying group I can only shake my head. Oil and gas is listed as number 6 in lobbying spending at Opensecrets (1998-2010):

Total lobbying expenditures by oil and gas for 2010 was $146,577,043.

Then after all of talk of removing lobbying interests in DC all we've seen instead has been a steady increase in lobbying spending.

Lobbying "buys" influences and affects legislation. Unless there is counter lobbying from environmental groups the oil and gas industry tends to get here way.

And with Total lobbying expenditures by oil and gas for 2010 was $146,577,043.

Compared to $19,900,999 for the environmental lobby.

A difference of 637 percent.

80 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:04:16pm

re: #71 b_sharp

I was the geek who got beat up and abused until grade 11.

I was the geek that who got beat up and abused until grade 11, then fought back and was expelled forcing me to end up with a GED.

Shit sucks bro.

81 the yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:04:17pm

re: #77 WindUpBird

For me it was until grade 10, grade 10 was awesome because I found the best thing on earth: THE COMPUTER LAB. Run by a wizard C++ programmer who was an aggressively geek-protective mamabear lesbian with a mullet. who was my hero. Still is.

No more jocks, no more idiots. No more fat ex football players whose glory days are dead, taking it out on students. Just hang out in the lab and make things. And of course play networked Doom deathmatch from hidden folders on the 386s :D

The thing is she might leave for the private sector if she was being attack like some of these governors are attacking teachers these days.

82 Digital Display  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:04:25pm

re: #66 WindUpBird

after the fifth time the big guy in the PE class puts you down on your back at home because you're wearing a back brace and he elbows you just right? And the coach just does that big retard ex football coach thing?

You'd think sports were stupid too :)

So I told my doctor I was having vertigo issues related to being forced into PE class with a back brace. Which was easier than saying I was getting beat up and the coach was laughing at the heavy metal weakling. And then my parents just called up the school and said "we're done with PE and that meathead you call a teacher."

My dear Brother...
I understand..But I played sports with pure anger...when I got adopted my mom taught me sportsmanship.. It took a few years but she was my inspiration...Mom was a great woman's golfer and taught me a lot about sports...

83 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:05:01pm

re: #78 Gus 802

Will the human race figure it out in time?!?!?!


maybe we don't deserve to. Maybe this is the cycle. We get smart, we overpopulate, we make our world less habitable for ourselves, everything goes to hell, we start from scratch.

84 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:05:45pm

The Zionist Mall has sold some lovely Miriam's Cups for the seder

85 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:06:11pm

re: #18 jamesfirecat

You know what's cool about Al Gore? He was friends with the guys who started up the Capital Steps, and he even agreed to play "himself" in one or two of their shows!

He was in the Senate at the time the group was started by the staff of Senator Charles Percy (RINO, IL).

* Percy was an actual liberal, and I do call a Republican who goes past being a moderate into being a liberal a RINO.

86 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:06:51pm

re: #78 Gus 802

Furthermore, lobbying costs are just part of business, another business expense that is then passed on to their consumers.

So those fancy dinners in Georgetown that are given out so freely - you pay for them in more ways than one.

87 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:07:08pm

re: #83 WindUpBird

Will the human race figure it out in time?!?!?!

maybe we don't deserve to. Maybe this is the cycle. We get smart, we overpopulate, we make our world less habitable for ourselves, everything goes to hell, we start from scratch.

Nope. If the worst-case scenarios come true, humans are extinct in 100-200 years.

Perhaps we'll be replaced by a race of super-intelligence cockroaches.

88 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:07:39pm

re: #79 Gus 802

And with Total lobbying expenditures by oil and gas for 2010 was $146,577,043.

Compared to $19,900,999 for the environmental lobby.

A difference of 637 percent.

Money talks, its a fact.

89 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:08:00pm

re: #80 laZardo

I was the geek that who got beat up and abused until grade 11, then fought back and was expelled forcing me to end up with a GED.

Shit sucks bro.

I know a guy who that happened to, I know several actually

And then one of the bullies of those kids killed himself his senior year playing car tag at very high speeds, terminating his life and the life of an entire family in a headon collision. And the school cried fake fake tears for an awful inhuman scumbag who killed a family of four. And no mention of the family of four, except for my little cabal of geeks who had to keep reminding people that this guy was a murderer.

Shit sucks.

90 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:08:25pm

re: #87 publicityStunted

Nope. If the worst-case scenarios come true, humans are extinct in 100-200 years.

Perhaps we'll be replaced by a race of super-intelligence cockroaches.

God always has a backup plan.

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:08:33pm

re: #87 publicityStunted

Nope. If the worst-case scenarios come true, humans are extinct in 100-200 years.

Perhaps we'll be replaced by a race of super-intelligence cockroaches.

Oh i don't know about extinct, I'm sure some clever or rich bastards will pull through

92 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:09:05pm

re: #83 WindUpBird

Will the human race figure it out in time?!?!?!

maybe we don't deserve to. Maybe this is the cycle. We get smart, we overpopulate, we make our world less habitable for ourselves, everything goes to hell, we start from scratch.

Humans tend to rely on wishful or magical thinking. I am sure you know what I'm referring too. Of course we also should keep in mind that this also includes other issues such as transportation and personal spending and the stranglehold that the automobile has on American society. The other issue being foreign policy and the Middle East most particularly our bizarre relationship with the Saudis and other OPEC nations. Which of course the oil industry supports.

93 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:09:10pm

My only hope at this point is that we as a species survive long enough that, a generation from now, people look back upon the denial crowd the same way we today look back on those who used to argue that cigarette smoking is perfectly safe, if not healthy.

94 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:09:14pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

Money talks, its a fact.

GOP money is helping endanger our human race.

it's a fact.

95 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:09:48pm

re: #89 WindUpBird

I know a guy who that happened to, I know several actually

And then one of the bullies of those kids killed himself his senior year playing car tag at very high speeds, terminating his life and the life of an entire family in a headon collision. And the school cried fake fake tears for an awful inhuman scumbag who killed a family of four. And no mention of the family of four, except for my little cabal of geeks who had to keep reminding people that this guy was a murderer.

Shit sucks.

Let me guess: He was a football player.

96 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:10:35pm

re: #92 Gus 802

I've started writing a new Page entry (that I might finish someday) which I've already titled: The Magick Book and the Cult of Literacy.

97 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:10:43pm

re: #86 freetoken

Furthermore, lobbying costs are just part of business, another business expense that is then passed on to their consumers.

So those fancy dinners in Georgetown that are given out so freely - you pay for them in more ways than one.

Tax free of course.

98 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:11:30pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

Let me guess: He was a football player.

Without knowing the case, I'd say that has a 1000% chance of being the truth.

99 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:11:31pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

He was in the Senate at the time the group was started by the staff of Senator Charles Percy (RINO, IL).

* Percy was an actual liberal, and I do call a Republican who goes past being a moderate into being a liberal a RINO.

The story goes that the Capital Steps were started for a Christmas party... they would have done a nativity play, but they couldn't find three wise men or a virgin in DC no mater how hard they looked...

100 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:11:32pm

re: #92 Gus 802

was it Tolkien who said "for every man, his death is an accident?"


I apply that to our race. For our race, it'll feel like an accident. We couldn;t have known!

Not only did we know, hundreds of millions of us cheered it on. Through republican tribalism, through superstitious nonsense about Jesus sweeping people into heaven and the antichrist and whatever voodoo bullshit some fuck in a suit is telling people.

We are fragile and silly animals, and we might just have managed to blow it all to hell, us maniacs :)

101 sagehen  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:12:05pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

He was in the Senate at the time the group was started by the staff of Senator Charles Percy (RINO, IL).

* Percy was an actual liberal, and I do call a Republican who goes past being a moderate into being a liberal a RINO.


The three best presidents this country ever had were liberal Republicans (Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Eisenhower). It's a proud tradition, worthy of revival.

As recently as the 70's, there were bunches of liberal Republicans in Congress -- Pete McCloskey, Linc Chaffee's dad whose name I forget, John Anderson, Howard Baker, Gerald Ford, all the Rockefeller Republicans.

102 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:12:33pm

re: #91 WindUpBird

Oh i don't know about extinct, I'm sure some clever or rich bastards will pull through

Only if they can build - and maintain - an oxygenated dome or bunker. And then there's that pesky issue of replenishing food/water supplies...

103 jaunte  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:13:22pm

re: #102 publicityStunted

They'll just keep some of us in the basement.
/The Road

104 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:13:35pm

re: #101 sagehen

The three best presidents this country ever had were liberal Republicans (Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Eisenhower). It's a proud tradition, worthy of revival.

As recently as the 70's, there were bunches of liberal Republicans in Congress -- Pete McCloskey, Linc Chaffee's dad whose name I forget, John Anderson, Howard Baker, Gerald Ford, all the Rockefeller Republicans.

Wait, why is FDR not considered among America's best presidents? He helped us beat our worst economic situation and one of the greatest military threats!

105 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:13:39pm

re: #99 jamesfirecat

The story goes that the Capital Steps were started for a Christmas party... they would have done a nativity play, but they couldn't find three wise men or a virgin in DC no mater how hard they looked...

HA! Loves it.

And they really were started at a Christmas party.

106 the yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:15:05pm

re: #93 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

My only hope at this point is that we as a species survive long enough that, a generation from now, people look back upon the denial crowd the same way we today look back on those who used to argue that cigarette smoking is perfectly safe, if not healthy.

There are people a live now that consider Lincoln a dictator, Roosevelt a traitor, Thomas Jefferson not important to the founding of the USA, and even HIV/AID's not being a real disease or alternative ways to cure Cancer. I am sure there will be a good deal of people who will think Global Warming isn't happening if half of the North Pole is gone.

107 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:15:33pm

re: #101 sagehen

TR is tough for me, so I'm going to punt on that one.

I'd call Ike a moderate, not a liberal.

Lincoln can't be classed according to post-WWII classifications, and the political environment was so different back then.

108 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:15:36pm

re: #80 laZardo

I was the geek that who got beat up and abused until grade 11, then fought back and was expelled forcing me to end up with a GED.

Shit sucks bro.

I moved from the richest high school in town to the poorest. At the new school they didn't care I was uncoordinated, said the wrong things, didn't like being touched but got good marks.

I went to parties and got drunk with them.

109 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:15:38pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

Let me guess: He was a football player.

He wasn't. He wouldn't work hard at it. or anything. He was a d-student privileged rich kid who took "business math" because he failed out of everything else. He was a big nasty dude who liked to take sucker punches in the hall at anyone who came from the AP wing. That ended when my friend, the other artist in the school (and a black belt in supreme physical condition) got hit, then swung his arm behind his back, and then slammed an open locker door shut on his face. We talked about that a while :)

So I guess he then took his evil to the roads of Washington state. if only he ran into a tree, ya know?

110 Digital Display  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:15:53pm

re: #104 jamesfirecat

Wait, why is FDR not considered among America's best presidents? He helped us beat our worst economic situation and one of the greatest military threats!

I would go with George Washington.. Lincoln then FDR and Teddy...Just my opinion

111 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:16:06pm

re: #102 publicityStunted

Only if they can build - and maintain - an oxygenated dome or bunker. And then there's that pesky issue of replenishing food/water supplies...

It' wouldn't be cheap :D

112 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:16:09pm

re: #97 Gus 802

Tax free of course.

Some lobbying costs are no doubt tax write-offs. The rest are just passed along.

Back in the day, after work I used to head up to Georgetown to catch a bite ... a little cafe off to the side, I think it was cost the "Peacock Cafe" - anyway, had good snacks. Of course, that the nubile young college coeds doing internships in town would be there had nothing to do with it...

Anyway, all those expensive restaurants in that neighborhood would be packed with people who believed they were important in one way or another, and trying to convince others of that claim.... spending money that some poor person in an obscure location on the planet worked hard.

113 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:16:43pm

re: #104 jamesfirecat

Wait, why is FDR not considered among America's best presidents? He helped us beat our worst economic situation and one of the greatest military threats!

he is among America's best presidents, to a lot of us :)

And all his work is being undone by pigs

114 sagehen  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:17:03pm

re: #104 jamesfirecat

Wait, why is FDR not considered among America's best presidents? He helped us beat our worst economic situation and one of the greatest military threats!

I'll put him in the top 10 for sure, probably top 5, but not top 3. I give that to ones I named.

115 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:17:16pm

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

HA! Loves it.

And they really were started at a Christmas party.

To be fair I stole the joke right out of their own book "Sixteen Scandals". I /my parents remind me to bring it with us to every showing we go....

116 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:17:41pm

re: #90 wlewisiii

God always has a backup plan.

Evolution finds a way.

117 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:17:51pm

Wow, my English is poor tonight - must need more ice cream.

118 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:18:32pm

re: #113 WindUpBird

he is among America's best presidents, to a lot of us :)

And all his work is being undone by pigs

Socialism, dontchaknow? Why, if the Founding Fathers had wanted a social safety net, they'd have written it into the Constitution! It ain't there, it can't be funded!

Oh wait, you say there's no mention of an Air Force either? Well...uhm...falls under defense, so it counts!

///

119 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:19:24pm

re: #89 WindUpBird

I know a guy who that happened to, I know several actually

And then one of the bullies of those kids killed himself his senior year playing car tag at very high speeds, terminating his life and the life of an entire family in a headon collision. And the school cried fake fake tears for an awful inhuman scumbag who killed a family of four. And no mention of the family of four, except for my little cabal of geeks who had to keep reminding people that this guy was a murderer.

Shit sucks.

That's what I hate about rich kids. They're practically guaranteed cushy jobs soon as they're out of school. And the school I went to was full of them because my parents insisted that's where my 151 IQ was best fostered.

120 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:19:40pm

re: #114 sagehen

I'll put him in the top 10 for sure, probably top 5, but not top 3. I give that to ones I named.

Sorry, I'd place FDR above Ike.

Ike did some great things (Sending the federal troops to Little Rock even though he personally was less than thrilled with integration) and the federal highway system, but what else did he do that was so great? (Non sarcastic, I'm not that well informed about Ike's terms...)

121 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:20:00pm

re: #101 sagehen

The three best presidents this country ever had were liberal Republicans (Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Eisenhower). It's a proud tradition, worthy of revival.

As recently as the 70's, there were bunches of liberal Republicans in Congress -- Pete McCloskey, Linc Chaffee's dad whose name I forget, John Anderson, Howard Baker, Gerald Ford, all the Rockefeller Republicans.

I was too young to vote that year, but I eagerly worked for John Anderson's third party run. I still think he would have been better for this nation that either Jimmy or Ronnie.

I also remember the "Preppy Republicans" who ran around pushing Bush senior. They really hated when Ronnie got the nod instead. "Reagan in 80, Bush in 81" was what more than a few of those I knew said referring to the presidential "curse".

122 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:20:01pm

re: #104 jamesfirecat

Wait, why is FDR not considered among America's best presidents? He helped us beat our worst economic situation and one of the greatest military threats!

I thought it was the military threat that ultimately got us out of our worst economic situation.

123 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:20:09pm

re: #108 b_sharp

I moved from the richest high school in town to the poorest. At the new school they didn't care I was uncoordinated, said the wrong things, didn't like being touched but got good marks.

I went to parties and got drunk with them.

I had the rich high school, where there was a poor neighborhood that was fed into the rich high school.

The rich kids (who weren't geeks) thought I was a "satanist" and creepy and wouldn't talk to me.

The poor kids were my bassist, my other bassist, my singer, the guy who sang and played feedback, our actual good guitarist who played Yngwie and Marty friedman licks note for note, the dude who ran the lights, the guy whose Marshall stack we borrowed for a house party, the guy who helped us record our demo...

124 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:20:50pm

re: #119 laZardo

That's what I hate about rich kids. They're practically guaranteed cushy jobs soon as they're out of school. And the school I went to was full of them because my parents insisted that's where my 151 IQ was best fostered.

Montessori schools are where gifted kids go now. Much better than just being warehoused with the privileged and dull

125 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:22:10pm

re: #114 sagehen

I'll put him in the top 10 for sure, probably top 5, but not top 3. I give that to ones I named.

Tough call. My own top 5 would go like this:

1. Lincoln
2. Washington
3. FDR
4. Reagan
5. Eisenhower

126 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:22:28pm

re: #122 laZardo

I thought it was the military threat that ultimately got us out of our worst economic situation.

Ultimately yes, but FDR was still willing to take some major steps in the right direction, by dramatically increasing government spending (except in 1937 when he foolishly decided to go along with Repbulican's plan to place the deficit above the recovery).

America was on the road to a recovery from civilian government spending alone, but WW2 level government spending cranked us into over drive and got us there much faster.

127 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:22:44pm

re: #118 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Socialism, dontchaknow? Why, if the Founding Fathers had wanted a social safety net, they'd have written it into the Constitution! It ain't there, it can't be funded!

Oh wait, you say there's no mention of an Air Force either? Well...uhm...falls under defense, so it counts!

///

Oh these Constitutional literalists. It really is that way these days. "Why if it ain't in the Constitution it wasn't meant to be!"

What a silly notion if we think of it empirically. Is anyone going to suggest that those authors had the future in mind? That we are supposed to maintain the guidelines written within a document written approximately 235 years ago? Would anyone suggest that they adhere to a document written in 1541? The Constitution is a living document. There's no two ways around it.

128 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:22:52pm

re: #122 laZardo

I thought it was the military threat that ultimately got us out of our worst economic situation.

Yeah, I've heard that one more than once from the wingnuts in recent years. According to them, the Great Depression would have fixed itself sooner (just a minor market "fluctuation"), and that it was FDR's "socialist" policies that extended it all the way up til WWII. And that even the war didn't pull us out, but rather the 50s boom that finally "ended" it.

129 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:22:59pm

okay, all the seriousness, I gotta take a break and draw something silly, bbl

130 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:23:17pm

maybe a panda girl, they're pretty fun to draw

131 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:24:18pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

Tough call. My own top 5 would go like this:

1. Lincoln
2. Washington
3. FDR
4. Reagan
5. Eisenhower

Dark, be honest with me, what did Reagan do that was so great exactly? I've never been able to figure it out for myself...

132 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:25:10pm

re: #124 WindUpBird

Montessori schools are where gifted kids go now. Much better than just being warehoused with the privileged and dull

I'll remember that for my kids, if I ever have any. :P

It especially didn't help that my school was one of the two that granted opportunities to foreign colleges after I was done. And the job situation here is so bad that one needs a college degree just for burger-flipping.

Seriously.

133 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:25:25pm

re: #119 laZardo

That's what I hate about rich kids. They're practically guaranteed cushy jobs soon as they're out of school. And the school I went to was full of them because my parents insisted that's where my 151 IQ was best fostered.

151?
Mine's 167.

;)

134 sagehen  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:25:46pm

re: #107 Dark_Falcon

TR is tough for me, so I'm going to punt on that one.

I'd call Ike a moderate, not a liberal.

Lincoln can't be classed according to post-WWII classifications, and the political environment was so different back then.

He opposed slavery; while he didn't enter office with a plan to abolish it (he would have been satisfied to just keep it from expanding into the new territories), he was happy to do it when he had the chance.

He raised taxes enough that the generation that fought the Civil War paid for it. And instituted work on a transcontinental railroad. And built land-grant colleges all over the place. And bought Alaska.

That says liberal to me.

as for Eisenhower --
interstate highways
massive school expansion
1957 Civil Rights Act that was even stronger than the 1964 version (until Senator LBJ locked it up in committee for ages and watered it down and then killed it).
Warned us about the military-industrial complex.
Kept income taxes up to a marginal rate of 91%.
Refused to continue the Korean War.
Appointed Earl Warren.
Did great follow-through on the Marshall Plan
and while he wasn't thrilled with Brown v. Board, he absolutely believed that the Supreme Court is Supreme, and he'd do whatever it took to enforce a decision. Up to and including sending the 101st Airborne into Arkansas to spend an entire year protecting 9 teenagers.

That also says "liberal" to me.

135 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:26:40pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

Tough call. My own top 5 would go like this:

1. Lincoln
2. Washington
3. FDR
4. Reagan
5. Eisenhower

I'll play:

1) Washington (he stepped down. He could have gotten away with not doing so).
2) Lincoln
3) TR (despite some major errors regarding Japan)
4) FDR
5) Jefferson (for grabbing Louisiana when it was offered as well as Lewis & Clark)

136 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:26:43pm

re: #131 jamesfirecat

Dark, be honest with me, what did Reagan do that was so great exactly? I've never been able to figure it out for myself...

He faced down the Soviet Union then spent them under the table. He also presided over the end of stagflation (with able assistance from Carter appointee Paul Volker, it must be noted) and usher in a a major growth period. When he left office America was richer, freer, and more powerful than when he was sworn in.

137 the yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:27:39pm

Before Reagan wasn't there about 3 types of republicans; The Liberal Rockefeller, the Moderate Nixon types and the conservative Goldwater type?

138 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:28:01pm

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

He faced down the Soviet Union then spent them under the table. He also presided over the end of stagflation (with able assistance from Carter appointee Paul Volker, it must be noted) and usher in a a major growth period. When he left office America was richer, freer, and more powerful than when he was sworn in.

The first one honestly seems like luck more than anything else, as the Soviet Union as a nation was bound to deconstruct at some point or another.

In what way was America "freer" when he left office than when he went into it?

139 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:28:14pm

Top 5:

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Esposito
4. Richard
5. Makita

140 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:28:22pm

re: #134 sagehen

as for Eisenhower --
interstate highways
massive school expansion
1957 Civil Rights Act that was even stronger than the 1964 version (until Senator LBJ locked it up in committee for ages and watered it down and then killed it).
Warned us about the military-industrial complex.
Kept income taxes up to a marginal rate of 91%.
Refused to continue the Korean War.
Appointed Earl Warren.
Did great follow-through on the Marshall Plan
and while he wasn't thrilled with Brown v. Board, he absolutely believed that the Supreme Court is Supreme, and he'd do whatever it took to enforce a decision. Up to and including sending the 101st Airborne into Arkansas to spend an entire year protecting 9 teenagers.

That also says "liberal" Marxist to me.

ftfy ;)

141 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:28:41pm

re: #127 Gus 802

Oh these Constitutional literalists. It really is that way these days. "Why if it ain't in the Constitution it wasn't meant to be!"

What a silly notion if we think of it empirically. Is anyone going to suggest that those authors had the future in mind? That we are supposed to maintain the guidelines written within a document written approximately 235 years ago? Would anyone suggest that they adhere to a document written in 1541? The Constitution is a living document. There's no two ways around it.

My favorite way to trip them up is to ask them where "Air Force" or "Marines" is mentioned in the Constitution. You can argue that the Marines falls under the Navy, but that simply opens a whole new can of worms in that the Founding Fathers only intended the Navy to exist for two purposes: protecting commerce and putting down piracy. They certainly didn't intend to station Navy warships across the globe to defend Big Energy's interests. And the Army was not meant to be a permanent force, but rather one called up in a time of war, and only as a defensive measure.

By about the time I get done laying all that out, they've got steam coming out their ears. They try to babble something about the Constitution requiring us to "provide for the common defense," but I point out that that's in the preamble, which also includes "promote the general welfare," which they swear up and down doesn't count.

'bout that time is when the gears finally seize up and the name-calling starts.

142 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:28:58pm

re: #133 Varek Raith

151?
Mine's 167.

;)

Mine is 33.

143 albusteve  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:29:16pm

Polk bilked Mexico out of their entire northern half, coast to coast...if audacity is a measure of greatness Polk had some nads

144 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:30:55pm

re: #135 wlewisiii

I'll play:

1) Washington (he stepped down. He could have gotten away with not doing so).
2) Lincoln
3) TR (despite some major errors regarding Japan)
4) FDR
5) Jefferson (for grabbing Louisiana when it was offered as well as Lewis & Clark)

I'd say

1) Washington
2) Lincoln
3) FDR
4) LBJ (For all his failuers in regards to Vietnam he still managed to see to it that the law which made Jim Crow illegal got passed)
5) Clinton (For managing to put on the path for a budget surplus without needing to seriously slash the services provided by the govenrment)

145 sagehen  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:31:20pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

Tough call. My own top 5 would go like this:

1. Lincoln
2. Washington
3. FDR
4. Reagan
5. Eisenhower

Where do you rank Thomas Jefferson?

146 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:31:47pm

re: #142 b_sharp

Mine is 33.

That was my ACT score.

147 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:31:52pm

re: #141 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

The militia was the "department of defense". That's largely what the 2nd Amendment was about. Firearm possession was second nature for the people of the frontier. It wasn't a sport nor was it a hobby. It was a matter of survival. The 2nd Amendment wasn't written for gun hobbyists. But, it can be interpreted as such. Thus the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment works in favor of gun collectors, etc., and not because it was written for them.

148 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:32:01pm

re: #142 b_sharp

Mine is 33.

ha.
So's mine.

149 jaunte  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:32:23pm

re: #142 b_sharp

Mine is 33.

Add just 1/3 and your vinyl will sound better.

150 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:32:56pm

re: #148 reine.de.tout

ha.
So's mine.

Never been tested. Don't care.

151 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:33:12pm

re: #146 laZardo

That was my ACT score.

I thought we were talking millimetres.

152 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:33:24pm

re: #151 b_sharp

I thought we were talking millimetres.

TMI

153 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:33:29pm

re: #150 EmmmieG

Never been tested. Don't care.

Same here. Seemed pointless.

154 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:33:44pm

With regards to Lincoln it depends on who you ask. You won't hear many American Indians praising President Lincoln.

155 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:33:46pm

re: #148 reine.de.tout

ha.
So's mine.

We're twins!

156 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:35:16pm

re: #153 Varek Raith

Same here. Seemed pointless.

It is.

Mine has ranged from 125 to 147.

A range that wide makes the tests suspect.

157 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:35:22pm

re: #153 Varek Raith

Same here. Seemed pointless.

They really need a WQ. A Weirdness Quotient. I'd take that test.

158 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:35:30pm

re: #144 jamesfirecat

I'd say

1) Washington
2) Lincoln
3) FDR
4) LBJ (For all his failuers in regards to Vietnam he still managed to see to it that the law which made Jim Crow illegal got passed)
5) Clinton (For managing to put on the path for a budget surplus without needing to seriously slash the services provided by the govenrment)

Another reason I don't believe Reagan has any place in the Top Five or Top Ten is because much of what ails us today can be traced back to him:

* rise of the Religious Right and their anti-gay, anti-women's rights-agenda

* deregulation (and all the lovely things in brings, like pollution, the credit default swap fiasco, bank failures, price-gouging, erosion of worker rights, etc)

* Afghanistan (mujaheddin, anyone?)

* Huge, bloated defense budgets and deficits without the revenue to pay for them

159 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:35:38pm

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

He faced down the Soviet Union then spent them under the table. He also presided over the end of stagflation (with able assistance from Carter appointee Paul Volker, it must be noted) and usher in a a major growth period. When he left office America was richer, freer, and more powerful than when he was sworn in.

Sorry DF, He merely got lucky that they went broke first and that was a very near thing. The real roots of our current budget mess have nothing to do with entitlements and everything to do with him selling the soul of the nation to the military industries. It's forgotten that Carter cancelled the B1 for a damn good reason - he wanted us to get several hundred B2's instead. But Ronnie had to have the B1 too and it's cost plust the overruns caused by slowing down the B2 project caused the B2 price to spiral out of control and we only ended up with one squadrons worth. We should have/could have replaced the B52 one for one.

I won't even go into the evil that was the Contras.

Reagan was a bad actor and a worse president. But he could "aw shucks" with the best of them and that lie hid a multitude of sins behind a genial smile.

160 Lidane  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:36:12pm

re: #106 the yankee

There are people a live now that consider Lincoln a dictator, Roosevelt a traitor, Thomas Jefferson not important to the founding of the USA

They're called the Tea Party.

161 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:36:54pm

re: #145 sagehen

Where do you rank Thomas Jefferson?

Number 7. TR is 6. I only consider 7 Presidents 'great'. Even those who were did our nation great service before being President, like Madison and Grant, did not make it to the top tier with their actions while in office. My list of Failures:

William Henry Harrison
James Buchanan
Andrew Johnson
Woodrow Wilson (I may catch flak for this one, but I'll explain it)
Warren Harding
Herbert Hoover
Jimmy Carter

Nixon is very tough to rank. He was in most ways a failure, but he had some great successes.

162 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:37:53pm

re: #158 publicityStunted

Another reason I don't believe Reagan has any place in the Top Five or Top Ten is because much of what ails us today can be traced back to him:

* rise of the Religious Right and their anti-gay, anti-women's rights-agenda

* deregulation (and all the lovely things in brings, like pollution, the credit default swap fiasco, bank failures, price-gouging, erosion of worker rights, etc)

* Afghanistan (mujaheddin, anyone?)

* Huge, bloated defense budgets and deficits without the revenue to pay for them

You forgot Iran Contra.... not sure if that has any fallout on our current problems, but it still feels like we shouldn't discuss the problems that Reagan caused without bringing it up....

163 The Yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:38:03pm

You know off topic a bit but the more I learn about Nixon the more impressed I am. I don't care for his Silent Majority act but he was good for out country. He made the EPA got us out of Vietnam. And from what I understand got China out of a bad situation with Russia with him opening relations with China.

164 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:39:31pm

re: #163 The Yankee

You know off topic a bit but the more I learn about Nixon the more impressed I am. I don't care for his Silent Majority act but he was good for out country. He made the EPA got us out of Vietnam. And from what I understand got China out of a bad situation with Russia with him opening relations with China.

He also gave us HMOs and the never ending multi-trillion dollar Drug War which was followed by the creation of the prison-industrial complex.

165 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:39:51pm

great comic: [Link: attilathe.com...]

166 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:40:56pm

re: #162 jamesfirecat

You forgot Iran Contra... not sure if that has any fallout on our current problems, but it still feels like we shouldn't discuss the problems that Reagan caused without bringing it up...

Given how many there were, can you blame me for forgetting a few? ;)

167 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:41:25pm

I was listening to Cornell West this morning. He said that white youths consume far more marijuana than black youth. However, guess who gets arrested more for marijuana possession? The black youth.

168 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:41:37pm

re: #165 WindUpBird

great comic: [Link: attilathe.com...]

I thought you were off drawing a bath or something.

You were just surfing weren't you?

169 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:41:38pm

re: #158 publicityStunted

Another reason I don't believe Reagan has any place in the Top Five or Top Ten is because much of what ails us today can be traced back to him:

* rise of the Religious Right and their anti-gay, anti-women's rights-agenda

* deregulation (and all the lovely things in brings, like pollution, the credit default swap fiasco, bank failures, price-gouging, erosion of worker rights, etc)

Deregulation was a largely good idea when Reagan did it. and what ever you think of him, do remember that the big deregulations occurred later,
under Clinton and Bush the Younger

* Afghanistan (mujaheddin, anyone?)

Aiding the Afghans was a good idea, and bled the Soviets something fierce. What happened after was the law of unintended consequences in action.

* Huge, bloated defense budgets and deficits without the revenue to pay for them

Partial point. But those high defense budgets ran the Soviets into the ground. We got our money's worth.

170 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:41:52pm

re: #161 Dark_Falcon

Number 7. TR is 6. I only consider 7 Presidents 'great'. Even those who were did our nation great service before being President, like Madison and Grant, did not make it to the top tier with their actions while in office. My list of Failures:

William Henry Harrison
James Buchanan
Andrew Johnson
Woodrow Wilson (I may catch flak for this one, but I'll explain it)
Warren Harding
Herbert Hoover
Jimmy Carter

Nixon is very tough to rank. He was in most ways a failure, but he had some great successes.

I personally consider WW (racist bastich who segregated DC) to be the worst president ever. After there we probably diverge really insanely...

1) WW
2) Buchanan
3) Hoover
4) Coolidge
5) Bush jr.

171 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:42:47pm

re: #167 Gus 802

I was listening to Cornell West this morning. He said that white youths consume far more marijuana than black youth. However, guess who gets arrested more for marijuana possession? The black youth.

Toking while black. Serious shit.

172 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:43:13pm

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

Deregulation was a largely good idea when Reagan did it. and what ever you think of him, do remember that the big deregulations occurred later,
under Clinton and Bush the Younger

Because they still had Reagan's GOP in Congress (1995 shutdown etc.)

Partial point. But those high defense budgets ran the Soviets into the ground. We got our money's worth.

BULLSHIT. I'm still waiting for those space lasers. ;_;

173 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:43:13pm

re: #167 Gus 802

I was listening to Cornell West this morning. He said that white youths consume far more marijuana than black youth. However, guess who gets arrested more for marijuana possession? The black youth.

For CA:

The report released this week by the Drug Policy Alliance confirmed that marijuana law enforcement in California disproportionately targets our youth. Despite consistent evidence that Black youth use marijuana at lower rates than Whites, in every one of the 25 largest counties in California, Blacks are arrested for marijuana possession at higher rates than Whites, typically at double, triple, or even quadruple the rate of Whites.

174 The Yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:44:05pm

re: #158 publicityStunted

Another reason I don't believe Reagan has any place in the Top Five or Top Ten is because much of what ails us today can be traced back to him:

* deregulation (and all the lovely things in brings, like pollution, the credit default swap fiasco, bank failures, price-gouging, erosion of worker rights, etc)

* Afghanistan (mujaheddin, anyone?)

Those 2 are actually Carter's babies, Carter might of been responsible for getting rid of the stupid regulations though.

The one thing that Reagan tried to do and the current GOP is going to stand in the way of again. Is he wanted to get rid of Nuclear Warheads.

175 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:44:07pm

re: #161 Dark_Falcon

Number 7. TR is 6. I only consider 7 Presidents 'great'. Even those who were did our nation great service before being President, like Madison and Grant, did not make it to the top tier with their actions while in office. My list of Failures:

William Henry Harrison
James Buchanan
Andrew Johnson
Woodrow Wilson (I may catch flak for this one, but I'll explain it)
Warren Harding
Herbert Hoover
Jimmy Carter

Nixon is very tough to rank. He was in most ways a failure, but he had some great successes.

How can you consider William Henry Harrison a failure? What did he do in his one month in the White House that offended you so?

"We are the Mediocre Presidents, you won't find our faces on dollars or on cents! There's Taylor, there's Tyler, Filmore, and there's Hays. There's William Henry Harrison...." "I DIED IN THIRTY DAYS!"

176 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:44:12pm

re: #150 EmmmieG

Never been tested. Don't care.

You've been tested. It's available in your school records. If you care. I don't see much point in it, myself.

177 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:44:37pm

re: #171 b_sharp

Toking while black. Serious shit.

You know it. Some bar just opened up two blocks from me. You think I see the cops more these days? No way. It's a yuppie bar. If this had been in Northwest Denver they would have increased patrols. And the yuppies of course still break the law from time to time like most drunkards do. But, because of profiling they look the other way.

178 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:45:00pm

re: #170 wlewisiii

I personally consider WW (racist bastich who segregated DC) to be the worst president ever. After there we probably diverge really insanely...

1) WW
2) Buchanan
3) Hoover
4) Coolidge
5) Bush jr.

We actually agree on three of them. I think Harding did worse than Coolidge, but I can see the argument. I'm not prepared to rank George W. Bush yet. I think that one should wait ten years after a president leaves office before assigning a ranking, in order to see how their decisions play out.

179 Lidane  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:45:41pm

re: #163 The Yankee

Nixon wouldn't get elected in today's GOP. He took us off the gold standard, for one. He also had a hand in the Clean Air and Clean Water acts, OSHA, the EPA, Title IX, the Supplemental Security Income Program, which is a welfare program, the Equal Employment Opportunity Act, and the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

By today's GOP standards, the guy was a bleeding heart pinko hippie. He'd never even make it out of the primaries.

180 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:46:25pm

re: #173 Gus 802

I support the legalization of marijuana, but I'm still kinda iffy about the hard drugs. I would think that like Portugal or the Netherlands we would have to have some kind of widespread treatment infrastructure in place that would "catch" the potential addiction rise.

181 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:46:27pm

Well, I'm going to go do something useful - sleep.

182 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:46:29pm

re: #175 jamesfirecat

How can you consider William Henry Harrison a failure? What did he do in his one month in the White House that offended you so?

"We are the Mediocre Presidents, you won't find our faces on dollars or on cents! There's Taylor, there's Tyler, Filmore, and there's Hays. There's William Henry Harrison..." "I DIED IN THIRTY DAYS!"

Dying in 30 days is what makes him a failure. Also that he made himself sick by nutty things like attending his inauguration on a cold day without a coat.

183 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:47:16pm

Given that I've only been eligible to vote since late 2001, I can't say who I think is great or bad.
:)
Also, I'm very tired.
Night!

184 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:47:30pm

re: #179 Lidane

Nixon wouldn't get elected in today's GOP. He took us off the gold standard, for one. He also had a hand in the Clean Air and Clean Water acts, OSHA, the EPA, Title IX, the Supplemental Security Income Program, which is a welfare program, the Equal Employment Opportunity Act, and the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

By today's GOP standards, the guy was a bleeding heart pinko hippie. He'd never even make it out of the primaries.

And the RINO! James L. Buckley -- William F. Buckley's brother -- a Republican:

He could convince Senator Jim Buckley to cosponsor the 1972 Clean Water Act. Buckley came to understand the relationship between his conservative political philosophy and the concept of conservation under Muskie's tutelage. As a result, he became an articulate supporter of the landmark 1972 Clean Water Act. As Buckley said: "I know of no situation in private life where a newcomer would have been accorded greater consideration, or where differences of opinion would have been given a fairer hearing than that which was characteristic of both the Committee on Public Works and its Subcommittee on Air and Water Pollution. I feel particularly fortunate to be a member of both and to have been able to work with the two chairmen and the committee staff, who have made so great an effort to accommodate differences of approach to common objectives."

185 APox  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:47:47pm

"Dying in 30 days is what makes him a failure."

DAMN YOU DEATH, DAMN YOU!

186 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:47:56pm

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

Deregulation was a largely good idea when Reagan did it. and what ever you think of him, do remember that the big deregulations occurred later,
under Clinton and Bush the Younger

Aiding the Afghans was a good idea, and bled the Soviets something fierce. What happened after was the law of unintended consequences in action.

Partial point. But those high defense budgets ran the Soviets into the ground. We got our money's worth.

Agreeing to Arm the Afghans until they'd driven the Soviets out and then just leaving them alone was a bad idea and we should have been able to see that it would have less than fun results ahead of time.

As for the other two, it sounds like the many of the problems Reagan solved are the results of people following up on Reagan's actions by either extrapolating them past the bounds of reason (his flirting with the religious right, his deregulation) or the result of people following up those actions without realizing the context that they made sense in (Once the USSR went belly up, we obviously should have throttled back the defense budget).

In short, Reagan wouldn't have been such a bad president, if people didn't insist on defying him as the man who had all the answers...

187 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:48:05pm

re: #183 Varek Raith

Given that I've only been eligible to vote since late 2001, I can't say who I think is great or bad.
:)
Also, I'm very tired.
Night!

I voted McCain in 2008.

I'm sorry. ;_;

It's Holy Week here in the P.I. and even as an atheist I feel I must perform some kind of penance once in a while.

188 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:48:10pm

I just woke up.

189 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:48:17pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

Dying in 30 days is what makes him a failure. Also that he made himself sick by nutty things like attending his inauguration on a cold day without a coat.

DF!
Being out in the cold without a coat doesn't make you sick!
Exposure to germs/viruses makes you sick. Cold or hot. With or without a coat.
Please tell me you weren't serious.

190 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:49:06pm

re: #185 APox

"Dying in 30 days is what makes him a failure."

DAMN YOU DEATH, DAMN YOU!

TR knew this, and that's why Death caught him sleeping.

191 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:50:05pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

Dying in 30 days is what makes him a failure. Also that he made himself sick by nutty things like attending his inauguration on a cold day without a coat.

Fair enough, but he only hurt himself by doing that, as America has a pretty good system in place for how to pick up the pieces when a president dies, so I don't think it's fair to include him on the same list as Hoover whose refusal to act dramatically when the stock market went belly up made a bad situation MUCH WORSE.

192 sagehen  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:50:31pm

re: #167 Gus 802

I was listening to Cornell West this morning. He said that white youths consume far more marijuana than black youth. However, guess who gets arrested more for marijuana possession? The black youth.

And even if you're only looking at people who've been arrested -- the black druggies are about 3 times more like than the white druggies to go to prison. The white defendants get diversion and probation, so decades later it was a youthful indiscretion that didn't affect their careers. While the black guys, they've done hard time and they're ineligible for Pell Grants and they'll never get a decent job.

e.g. -- Senator Mitch Daniels, who in 1970 was arrested with two shoeboxes full of pot, plus LSD and prescription drugs without a prescription.
[Link: www.dailyprincetonian.com...]
He was sentenced to a $350 fine ... he believes "justice was served."

193 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:50:34pm

re: #186 jamesfirecat

Hitchens summed it up pretty well IMO.

194 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:51:17pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

Dying in 30 days is what makes him a failure. Also that he made himself sick by nutty things like attending his inauguration on a cold day without a coat.

Harrison had been razzed through his whole campaign as an intellectual lightweight and this really rubbed him raw. So he spent months (IIRC) writing an insanely long highly erudite inaugural address. And then stood in shitty weather to give it catching his fatal pneumonia. :banghead: His military service keeps him out of the lowest tier for me, but he's still in the bottom ten.

195 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:53:06pm

re: #191 jamesfirecat

Fair enough, but he only hurt himself by doing that, as America has a pretty good system in place for how to pick up the pieces when a president dies, so I don't think it's fair to include him on the same list as Hoover whose refusal to act dramatically when the stock market went belly up made a bad situation MUCH WORSE.

I didn't rank the failures, James, I listed them in chronological order. I'd agree Hoover was a bigger failure than Harrison (so was Jimmy Carter, BTW).

196 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:53:34pm

re: #186 jamesfirecat


In short, Reagan wouldn't have been such a bad president, if people didn't insist on defying him as the man who had all the answers...

QFT.

I put him almost exactly in the middle.

197 Lidane  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:53:55pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

Dying in 30 days is what makes him a failure. Also that he made himself sick by nutty things like attending his inauguration on a cold day without a coat.

Actually, he didn't make himself sick in the inaugural. That was merely the conventional wisdom of the time.

He didn't actually get sick until about three weeks later. It just happened that his busy schedule as POTUS and his lack of privacy gave him no time to rest at all, and all the quack "medicine" his doctors tried (leeches, opium, snakeweed, castor oil, etc.) made things worse and he died nine days later.

198 laZardo  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:54:40pm

Gonna head to gym to build my self-esteem. Toodles! :D

199 The Yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:55:29pm

re: #179 Lidane

Nixon wouldn't get elected in today's GOP. He took us off the gold standard, for one. He also had a hand in the Clean Air and Clean Water acts, OSHA, the EPA, Title IX, the Supplemental Security Income Program, which is a welfare program, the Equal Employment Opportunity Act, and the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

By today's GOP standards, the guy was a bleeding heart pinko hippie. He'd never even make it out of the primaries.

Sad cause I actually see Nixon, Bush senior and Clinton as the best presidents of my life time. I was born in the early 80's

200 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:57:12pm

re: #197 Lidane

Much truth there, irregardless of when he caught the bug. Without a good broad spectrum antibiotic, he was a dead man.

201 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 8:58:55pm

re: #199 The Yankee

Sad cause I actually see Nixon, Bush senior and Clinton as the best presidents of my life time. I was born in the early 80's

The way I remember it no one really like Bush senior towards the end. Both left and right wing. Each had their own reasons. "Read my lips: no new taxes..." Woops!

202 Lidane  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:00:24pm

re: #200 wlewisiii

Much truth there, irregardless of when he caught the bug. Without a good broad spectrum antibiotic, he was a dead man.

The guy died of of right lower lobe pneumonia, jaundice, and overwhelming septicemia. That's due to way, way more than just standing out in the cold and rain without a coat and hat and giving a long-winded speech.

The lack of rest, leeches, opium, and quack medicine didn't help, but yeah. Saying he died because he gave a longer speech in the rain isn't anywhere close to true.

203 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:02:53pm

Hard to say who I'd put in my top 5 presidents lsit. I think personally Nixon's a real tragedy and complexity though. I've talked about it before but I researched and wrote a paper exclusively on his domestic politices and I was shocked tos ee how left they were. I was at first tempted to call it "Sympathy for the Devil" after the famous Stones song and due to my own feelings of weirdness defending someone who I had been brought up to hate. Hey, my Dad's an old hippie, not exactly Nixon's fan. Ultimately settled on the LAst New Dealer though.

204 The Yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:02:57pm

re: #199 The Yankee

Sad cause I actually see Nixon, Bush senior and Clinton as the best presidents of my life time. I was born in the early 80's


Correction I was obviously not alive when Nixon was president.

re: #201 Gus 802

The way I remember it no one really like Bush senior towards the end. Both left and right wing. Each had their own reasons. "Read my lips: no new taxes..." Woops!


Yea I liked him for admitting that he just said that to get elected and he actually did the right thing and raised taxes when he became president. His son was hell bent on it.

205 Lidane  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:03:03pm

re: #201 Gus 802

The way I remember it no one really like Bush senior towards the end. Both left and right wing. Each had their own reasons. "Read my lips: no new taxes..." Woops!

The left hated him for the first Gulf War. The right hated him because he broke his "Read My Lips" pledge. He's only been redeemed as a statesman since leaving office, especially when compared to his son.

206 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:04:51pm

I personally think Polk is an underrated president by analysts of today. One term and he died soon after he left office but the man did everything he promised to do. And I say that as someone who is historically critical of the idea of Manifest Destiny. I am also a weird amateur historian in that I like both Andrew Jackson and John Quincy Adams. Guess Jackson I like the rhetoric and man while Adams' abolitionism and support for internal improvements is more closer to my personal philosophy.

207 The Yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:04:54pm

re: #205 Lidane

The left hated him for the first Gulf War. The right hated him because he broke his "Read My Lips" pledge. He's only been redeemed as a statesman since leaving office, especially when compared to his son.

Oh yea and for the love of God, he knew not to go into Iraq cause of the turmoil it would bring.

208 Lidane  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:05:40pm

re: #203 HappyWarrior

Hard to say who I'd put in my top 5 presidents lsit. I think personally Nixon's a real tragedy and complexity though. I've talked about it before but I researched and wrote a paper exclusively on his domestic politices and I was shocked tos ee how left they were.

Heh. Noam Chomsky was once quoted as saying that Nixon was the last liberal president. Figure that one out.

As for my own Top 5, I'd have to think about it. I can't settle on five names that quickly.

209 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:05:42pm

re: #205 Lidane

The left hated him for the first Gulf War. The right hated him because he broke his "Read My Lips" pledge. He's only been redeemed as a statesman since leaving office, especially when compared to his son.

Then came the Democrats' secret weapon! Bill Clinton wearing shades and playing the sax.

210 Lidane  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:06:16pm

re: #207 The Yankee

Oh yea and for the love of God, he knew not to go into Iraq cause of the turmoil it would bring.

So did Dick Cheney, at least back then. Funny how things changed just a few years later.

211 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:06:31pm

As far as recent Republican presidents go, I have a soft spot for Gerald Ford. I am not a big Jimmy Carter fan. I like what he's done with the Habitat for Humanity but I think he's naive on foreign policy issues. Plus, he bears some blame like Reagan for giving us the religious right.

212 tnguitarist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:07:26pm

re: #203 HappyWarrior

I think people are glossing over some of Nixon's worst traits. He was an extremely paranoid anti-Semite.

213 Lidane  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:07:35pm

re: #209 Gus 802

Then came the Democrats' secret weapon! Bill Clinton wearing shades and playing the sax.

Acutally, I like to think that Clinton's secret weapon in 1992 was Ross Perot. Heh.

Perot did all of Clinton's dirty work for him, since he hated Bush Sr. and made it all personal. All Bill had to do was sit back and let Perot's charts and giant sucking sounds drag Bush Sr. down the tubes.

214 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:07:46pm

re: #208 Lidane

Heh. Noam Chomsky was once quoted as saying that Nixon was the last liberal president. Figure that one out.

As for my own Top 5, I'd have to think about it. I can't settle on five names that quickly.

That's probably where I got the idea from even though I don't read Chomsky. I think I got the idea from hearing liberal friends talk about how Nixon was quite liberal and then seeing a Tip O'Neil quote about Nixon's legacy.

215 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:08:05pm

re: #207 The Yankee

Oh yea and for the love of God, he knew not to go into Iraq cause of the turmoil it would bring.

Well his Secretary of Defense at the time had a very good point.

"If you go into Iraq and remove Saddam what are you going to replace him with? It's a quagmire waiting to happen..."

///I believe he also had some important comments on the subject of hunting safety and eating "heart smart" foods especially as we grew older.... sadly I can't seem to recall what his name was....

216 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:08:26pm

re: #202 Lidane

The guy died of of right lower lobe pneumonia, jaundice, and overwhelming septicemia. That's due to way, way more than just standing out in the cold and rain without a coat and hat and giving a long-winded speech.

The lack of rest, leeches, opium, and quack medicine didn't help, but yeah. Saying he died because he gave a longer speech in the rain isn't anywhere close to true.

There's been theories that part of the reason Pres. Garfield ultimately perished was due to his doctors repeatedly poking their unsterilized fingers into the wound in an effort to locate the bullet's trajectory and final resting place, as American doctors at the time still hadn't fully accepted the sterilization procedures pioneered in Europe decades prior.

217 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:08:27pm

re: #212 tnguitarist

Among other aspects of his paranoia!

218 Lidane  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:08:49pm

re: #212 tnguitarist

I think people are glossing over some of Nixon's worst traits. He was an extremely paranoid anti-Semite.

Oh, he was DEFINITELY an anti-Semite and was hardly a nice guy. But when you look at what he did in office, if he was alive today, he'd be a RINO and a bleeding heart liberal according to the teabaggers.

219 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:08:57pm

re: #217 Floral Giraffe

Among other aspects of his paranoia!

Do you think I'm being too paranoid??!?!?!?!?!

/

220 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:09:37pm

re: #212 tnguitarist

I think people are glossing over some of Nixon's worst traits. He was an extremely paranoid anti-Semite.

I don't disagree with that actually. I think personally he was one of the biggest dicks ever to be president. Pun intended but policy-wise, I think he was better than many of his successors.

221 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:09:46pm

re: #219 Gus 802

Booga booga!
///

222 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:09:55pm

Well. Ask Hitchens about Kissinger then and Chomsky about Carter.

223 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:10:38pm

re: #211 HappyWarrior

As far as recent Republican presidents go, I have a soft spot for Gerald Ford. I am not a big Jimmy Carter fan. I like what he's done with the Habitat for Humanity but I think he's naive on foreign policy issues. Plus, he bears some blame like Reagan for giving us the religious right.

By the same token that FDR must be ranked great, Carter must be ranked a failure. He let America's armed forces become dangerously depleted, he refused to see the threat that Communism still posed until the USSR invaded Afghanistan, and the economy entered a nosedive under his watch. He did try to make changes in 1979-1980 (with the truly important change being the appointment of Paul Volker to chair the Fed), but it was a case of Too Little, Too Late. A majority of voters were willing to vote for Reagan as a credible alternative.

224 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:11:12pm

The thing that amuses me regarding Carter is how many in the modern left have adopted him as one of our own even though the left at the time was not too big on him. Sure, they preferred him over Reagan but this I do know, I would have supported Teddy in the primaries in 1980 and probably voted for Anderson in the general.

225 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:11:12pm

re: #219 Gus 802

Do you think I'm being too paranoid??!?!?!?!?!

/

No, that's perfectly normal paranoia. Everyone in the universe gets that.

/

226 tnguitarist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:11:22pm

re: #218 Lidane

Oh, he was DEFINITELY an anti-Semite and was hardly a nice guy. But when you look at what he did in office, if he was alive today, he'd be a RINO and a bleeding heart liberal according to the teabaggers.

Yeah, but he was a nasty personality. See also: Southern strategy.

227 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:11:27pm

So . . . .
Our Presidents are not perfect people.
They all have good/bad points.
Some are better than others.
We as a nation survive.

Does that about sum it up?

228 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:11:36pm

re: #222 Gus 802

I really liked Jean Kirkpatrick. She knew where she stood & served the country well. Not a Presidents, but a dutiful public servant.

229 Lidane  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:11:38pm

re: #222 Gus 802

Well. Ask Hitchens about Kissinger then and Chomsky about Carter.

And read Hunter S. Thompson's eulogy for Nixon. It's absolutely brutal.

230 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:12:48pm

re: #227 reine.de.tout

And, many good people choose to serve our great nation.
Yep.
That works!
*waves*

231 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:13:04pm

Yeah Nixon had that anti-Semite streak but then came the Yom Kippur War.

232 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:13:19pm

re: #223 Dark_Falcon

By the same token that FDR must be ranked great, Carter must be ranked a failure. He let America's armed forces become dangerously depleted, he refused to see the threat that Communism still posed until the USSR invaded Afghanistan, and the economy entered a nosedive under his watch. He did try to make changes in 1979-1980 (with the truly important change being the appointment of Paul Volker to chair the Fed), but it was a case of Too Little, Too Late. A majority of voters were willing to vote for Reagan as a credible alternative.

Carter was probably one of the nicest guys to ever be president, nice to the point of nievety, but still nice, and Nixon was probably one of the meanest, but Nixon managed to get some major important shit done.... the two make an interesting counter point to one another...

233 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:13:43pm

re: #212 tnguitarist

I think people are glossing over some of Nixon's worst traits. He was an extremely paranoid anti-Semite.

But ironically, Nixon ordered the shipment of arms to Israel in 1973 and may well have saved Israel in so doing. Both America and Nixon personally paid a high price for that with the Arab oil boycott, but it was the right thing to do.

234 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:15:32pm

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

I think "the right thing to do" is based on hindsight.
Which is always 20/20.
Carter sucks yesterday, and today.
He always WANTED to do the right thing.

235 The Yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:16:32pm

re: #232 jamesfirecat

Carter was probably one of the nicest guys to ever be president, nice to the point of nievety, but still nice, and Nixon was probably one of the meanest, but Nixon managed to get some major important shit done... the two make an interesting counter point to one another...

Everything I know about Nixon I learned from watching Futurama.\

236 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:16:43pm

re: #232 jamesfirecat

Carter was probably one of the nicest guys to ever be president, nice to the point of nievety, but still nice, and Nixon was probably one of the meanest, but Nixon managed to get some major important shit done... the two make an interesting counter point to one another...


It's actually very similiar to the token where James Buchanan whom has one of the richest pre-president resumes in history (the man did pretty much everything before he was president sans being a judge) is one of the worst we ever had and Abraham Lincoln, a one term Congressman is one of the best. I think that's aprt of why I evaluate candidates and "readiness" on an individual basis. Some guys have it, some don't.

237 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:17:24pm

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

But ironically, Nixon ordered the shipment of arms to Israel in 1973 and may well have saved Israel in so doing. Both America and Nixon personally paid a high price for that with the Arab oil boycott, but it was the right thing to do.

Nixon doing that and Ike sending troops to Little Rock to support the Little Rock Nine, even though he personally was no fan of integration, were both good examples of politicians who were willing to put aside their personal issues to do what was best for America... when there was a divide between what they believed and what the law called for, they didn't always see this as a sign that the law was wrong... this is a skill that will be necessary in any politician who hopes to earn my respect...

238 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:17:30pm

re: #234 Floral Giraffe

I think "the right thing to do" is based on hindsight.
Which is always 20/20.
Carter sucks yesterday, and today.
He always WANTED to do the right thing.

But he failed to actually get those things done. And when a president does that, you have to call him a failure. His inability to work with Congress was a major problem as well.

239 tnguitarist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:17:30pm

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

But ironically, Nixon ordered the shipment of arms to Israel in 1973 and may well have saved Israel in so doing. Both America and Nixon personally paid a high price for that with the Arab oil boycott, but it was the right thing to do.

Not all folks that come to the defense of Israel are friends of the Jewish people.

240 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:18:28pm

re: #235 The Yankee

Everything I know about Nixon I learned from watching Futurama.

Oh expletive deleted!

241 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:18:31pm

re: #223 Dark_Falcon

By the same token that FDR must be ranked great, Carter must be ranked a failure. He let America's armed forces become dangerously depleted, he refused to see the threat that Communism still posed until the USSR invaded Afghanistan, and the economy entered a nosedive under his watch. He did try to make changes in 1979-1980 (with the truly important change being the appointment of Paul Volker to chair the Fed), but it was a case of Too Little, Too Late. A majority of voters were willing to vote for Reagan as a credible alternative.

You'll get no arguments from me regarding Carter's presidency. I disagree with those on my side who want to remake him into even a mediocrity. I think he's easily bottom tier overall and probably the worst post WWII one. I give Reagan credit for talking with Gorbachev and working with O'Neill in the house.

242 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:18:44pm

re: #236 HappyWarrior

It's actually very similiar to the token where James Buchanan whom has one of the richest pre-president resumes in history (the man did pretty much everything before he was president sans being a judge) is one of the worst we ever had and Abraham Lincoln, a one term Congressman is one of the best. I think that's aprt of why I evaluate candidates and "readiness" on an individual basis. Some guys have it, some don't.

Well, when you consider that that meant that Buchanan was a party man who did what he had to to get re-elected, and Lincoln did what he thought was right and therefore didn't always have the support of the party....but that's just a theory.

Buchanan was a politician. Lincoln was a statesman.

243 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:20:03pm

re: #242 EmmmieG

Well, when you consider that that meant that Buchanan was a party man who did what he had to to get re-elected, and Lincoln did what he thought was right and therefore didn't always have the support of the party...but that's just a theory.

Buchanan was a politician. Lincoln was a statesman.

True, but that's my point I guess. Some guys like Buchanan have tons of experience but are nothing but hacks and others are like Lincoln and statesmen. Don't blame me, I voted for Fremont :).

244 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:21:02pm

re: #243 HappyWarrior

True, but that's my point I guess. Some guys like Buchanan have tons of experience but are nothing but hacks and others are like Lincoln and statesmen. Don't blame me, I voted for Fremont :).

Hoover. Total party hack.

245 The Yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:21:26pm

re: #237 jamesfirecat

Nixon doing that and Ike sending troops to Little Rock to support the Little Rock Nine, even though he personally was no fan of integration, were both good examples of politicians who were willing to put aside their personal issues to do what was best for America... when there was a divide between what they believed and what the law called for, they didn't always see this as a sign that the law was wrong... this is a skill that will be necessary in any politician who hopes to earn my respect...

LOL so that means that means that Obama might of gain your respect when he made the deal to extend Taxes for the rich as well as the middle class?

246 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:22:39pm

re: #244 EmmmieG

Hoover. Total party hack.

I wouldn't call Hoover a party hack. He actually had been courted by both parties to run for president as early as 1920 since he was seen as a huge hero in WWI for helping feed the hungry of Europe. And he had supported TR's independent candidacy in 1912 too. Hoover's fault if you ask me was that he was in over his head. From what I know of Hoover, he was a good guy but one that was in over his head.

247 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:23:05pm

re: #235 The Yankee

Everything I know about Nixon I learned from watching Futurama.

Now beat it, before I get Cambodian on your asses!

/

248 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:23:41pm

re: #246 HappyWarrior

I wouldn't call Hoover a party hack. He actually had been courted by both parties to run for president as early as 1920 since he was seen as a huge hero in WWI for helping feed the hungry of Europe. And he had supported TR's independent candidacy in 1912 too. Hoover's fault if you ask me was that he was in over his head. From what I know of Hoover, he was a good guy but one that was in over his head.

To clarify, hsi election to the presidency was the first time he had been elected to anything. He had been Commerce secretary and that was it pretty much.

249 The Yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:24:09pm

re: #243 HappyWarrior

True, but that's my point I guess. Some guys like Buchanan have tons of experience but are nothing but hacks and others are like Lincoln and statesmen. Don't blame me, I voted for Fremont :).

I always thought it was widely considered that Ulysses S. Grant was the worst president this country ever had.

250 Gus  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:24:09pm

re: #246 HappyWarrior

I wouldn't call Hoover a party hack. He actually had been courted by both parties to run for president as early as 1920 since he was seen as a huge hero in WWI for helping feed the hungry of Europe. And he had supported TR's independent candidacy in 1912 too. Hoover's fault if you ask me was that he was in over his head. From what I know of Hoover, he was a good guy but one that was in over his head.

Hoover also popularized the concept of public works programs.

251 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:24:18pm

re: #246 HappyWarrior

I wouldn't call Hoover a party hack. He actually had been courted by both parties to run for president as early as 1920 since he was seen as a huge hero in WWI for helping feed the hungry of Europe. And he had supported TR's independent candidacy in 1912 too. Hoover's fault if you ask me was that he was in over his head. From what I know of Hoover, he was a good guy but one that was in over his head.

That's what I get for typing while tired.

Harding. I meant Harding.

Look, they both start with H, okay?

And you're right about Hoover. He was a good guy.

252 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:24:26pm

re: #245 The Yankee

LOL so that means that means that Obama might of gain your respect when he made the deal to extend Taxes for the rich as well as the middle class?

No, Obama earned my respect when despite his own preference for peace he was willing to deploy American Aerial and Naval assets to protect civilians in Libya.

253 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:25:39pm

re: #246 HappyWarrior

... Hoover, he was a good guy but one that was in over his head.

That seems to be the impression I get when I hear people (who know about history and economics) speak of Hoover.

Part of the problem is the question of keeping up with the changes in society - that is one thing (rapidity of change) that took people by surprise and was a characteristic of the whole 20th century.

254 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:26:11pm

re: #251 EmmmieG

That's what I get for typing while tired.

Harding. I meant Harding.

Look, they both start with H, okay?

And you're right about Hoover. He was a good guy.

All good, 100% agree about Harding. I'll say something nice about Warren G. Harding. He did openly condemn the KKK in the early 20's. But other than that Corruptus in Extremis.

255 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:28:07pm

re: #254 HappyWarrior

All good, 100% agree about Harding. I'll say something nice about Warren G. Harding. He did openly condemn the KKK in the early 20's. But other than that Corruptus in Extremis.

That's worth a fair bit.

I still wonder whether to pity Florence or not.

256 sagehen  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:28:17pm

re: #248 HappyWarrior

To clarify, hsi election to the presidency was the first time he had been elected to anything. He had been Commerce secretary and that was it pretty much.

Hoover's stint as Harding's Commerce secretary is why black voters in 1928 turned from monolithically Republican to monolithically Democrat (see Great Mississippi Flood of 1927).

257 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:28:43pm

re: #253 freetoken

That seems to be the impression I get when I hear people (who know about history and economics) speak of Hoover.

Part of the problem is the question of keeping up with the changes in society - that is one thing (rapidity of change) that took people by surprise and was a characteristic of the whole 20th century.

Yeah, just a guy in over his head. As I pointed out, he had never been elected to anything before the presidency, there have been others before or since who hadn't but they were generals like Eisenhower who had tons of administrative experience too. Plus, I think another fault of Hoover was that he was a man who had a different view of the government in a time when perceptions of the role of governmetn were changing in the country.

258 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:29:09pm

re: #243 HappyWarrior

Don't blame me, I voted for Fremont :).

OW! Damn it, that made me snort beer out my nose! :D

259 jaunte  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:29:28pm

re: #256 sagehen

Hoover and the Flood had a big influence:

The flood had the unlikely effect of contributing to both the election of Herbert Hoover as President, and his defeat four years later. He was much lauded for his masterful handling of the refugee camps, but later concerns over the treatment of blacks in those camps caused him to make promises to the African-American community which he later broke, losing the black vote in his re-election campaign.[7]:259-290, passim

Several reports on the terrible situation in the refugee camps, including one by the Colored Advisory Commission by Robert Russa Moton, were kept out of the media at the request of Herbert Hoover, with the promise of further reforms for blacks after the presidential election. When he failed to keep the promise, Moton and other influential African-Americans helped to shift the allegiance of Black Americans from the Republican party to Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the Democrats.[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

260 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:29:53pm

re: #246 HappyWarrior

Hoover's fault if you ask me was that he was in over his head. From what I know of Hoover, he was a good guy but one that was in over his head.

This.

261 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:32:49pm

re: #256 sagehen

Hoover's stint as Harding's Commerce secretary is why black voters in 1928 turned from monolithically Republican to monolithically Democrat (see Great Mississippi Flood of 1927).

[Video]

Interesting, I thought the black vote had begun to shift in FDR's first election. Al Smith is an interesting figure though. Though I admire the other Happy Warrior, Humphrey more so though I have a soft spot for Al for paving the way for American Catholic politicians and being a staunch prohibition opponent.

262 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:37:20pm

re: #246 HappyWarrior

I wouldn't call Hoover a party hack. He actually had been courted by both parties to run for president as early as 1920 since he was seen as a huge hero in WWI for helping feed the hungry of Europe. And he had supported TR's independent candidacy in 1912 too. Hoover's fault if you ask me was that he was in over his head. From what I know of Hoover, he was a good guy but one that was in over his head.

re: #256 sagehen

Hoover's stint as Harding's Commerce secretary is why black voters in 1928 turned from monolithically Republican to monolithically Democrat (see Great Mississippi Flood of 1927).

[Video]

Actually, black people went from monolithically Republican to leaning Democratic. Even as late as 1960, Richard Nixon got 30% of the black vote. And by way of example, even though he did many bad things, Joe MaCarthy actually campaigned hard in Milwaukee's black sections in both 1946 and 1952 and won the black vote in Wisconsin. It wasn't till the 1968 and the "Southern Strategy" that blacks became a united bloc for the Dems.

263 jaunte  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:39:56pm

re: #256 sagehen

A great book on the topic is Rising Tide; the Great Mississippi flood of 1927 and How it Changed America
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

The song "When the Levee Breaks" recalls incidents like these:

One of the chief Mississippi Delta plantation owners, LeRoy Percy, kicked the Klan out of his county, calling them 'spies, liars, [and] cowards.' Later, he blocked the transportation of black flood refugees from his county, afraid that once they left they'd never return. So his sharecroppers spent a miserable few months on the levee with inadequate food, shelter, and medical attention, forced into work gangs to repair the levees.


Any black citizen who refused to stay on the levee and work to repair it (without shelter or adequate food and water) was shot.

264 sagehen  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:40:44pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

re: #256 sagehen

Actually, black people went from monolithically Republican to leaning Democratic. Even as late as 1960, Richard Nixon got 30% of the black vote. And by way of example, even though he did many bad things, Joe MaCarthy actually campaigned hard in Milwaukee's black sections in both 1946 and 1952 and won the black vote in Wisconsin. It wasn't till the 1968 and the "Southern Strategy" that blacks became a united bloc for the Dems.

That 30% is because Eisenhower had made strides towards winning black voters back from the Dems -- the 1957 Civil Rights Bill, and Little Rock, were well-noticed.

265 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:43:59pm

re: #264 sagehen

That 30% is because Eisenhower had made strides towards winning black voters back from the Dems -- the 1957 Civil Rights Bill, and Little Rock, were well-noticed.

Well that and some black voters including Jackie Robinson felt and correctly at that Nixon had a better record on civil rights than Jack Kennedy. Though the difference was Kennedy had pro civil rights rhetoric and Nixon especially in 1968 began running away from his moderate record to establish the Southern Strategy. It should be no coincidence that one of the first people to endorse Nixon in '68 was none other than Strom Thurmond. I guess this is the real tragedy of the modern Republican Party. Historically they were the better party on Civil Rights and I'll say this much as someone whose family become Democrats in large part because of FDR but the man was a pussy on civil rights for African Americans. I know why he did it but it was cowardice in my eyes.

266 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:45:23pm

Interesting archeological discovery about Canaan during the times usually attributed to the patriarch Jacob:

Archaeologists Uncover Evidence of a Minoan Presence Among Ancient Canaanites

A recent and ongoing excavation at the remains of an expansive Middle Bronze Age Canaanite palace in the western Galilee region of present-day Israel is opening a new window on the possible presence of ancient Minoans at an ancient Canaanite palace, revealing what may be the earliest known Western art found in the eastern Mediterranean.

267 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:47:29pm

re: #264 sagehen

That 30% is because Eisenhower had made strides towards winning black voters back from the Dems -- the 1957 Civil Rights Bill, and Little Rock, were well-noticed.

Not just Ike. The Democrats took a number of black eyes in the late 40's and the 50's due to the large number of Southern racists who were also Democrats. It hurt them till LBJ partially redeemed himself for 1957 by pushing the Civil Rights Act of 1964 through. That, plus Barry Goldwater's decision to vote against that act (for non-racist reasons) saw the tide swing back in the Dems direction.

268 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:50:05pm

re: #167 Gus 802

I was listening to Cornell West this morning. He said that white youths consume far more marijuana than black youth. However, guess who gets arrested more for marijuana possession? The black youth.

because it has nothing to do with marijuana and everything to do with the police looking for the easy pickins and the disadvantaged

269 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:51:28pm

re: #218 Lidane

Oh, he was DEFINITELY an anti-Semite and was hardly a nice guy. But when you look at what he did in office, if he was alive today, he'd be a RINO and a bleeding heart liberal according to the teabaggers.

true

270 The Yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:52:51pm

re: #265 HappyWarrior

Historically they were the better party on Civil Rights and I'll say this much as someone whose family become Democrats in large part because of FDR but the man was a pussy on civil rights for African Americans. I know why he did it but it was cowardice in my eyes.

I think FDR's wife went through a lot of hell, for among other things allowing blacks to her dinner parties. And he didn't stand in the way of blacks flying in Europe during the war.

271 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:54:15pm

OK, worst youtube search EVER.
I apologize, in advance...

272 HappyWarrior  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:55:05pm

re: #270 The Yankee

I think FDR's wife went through a lot of hell, for among other things allowing blacks to her dinner parties. And he didn't stand in the way of blacks flying in Europe during the war.

Yep, I think Mrs. Roosevelt in many ways was way ahead of her itme. People like that make it hard for me to just shrug people off as products of their time.

273 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:56:17pm

I am so done hearing about how we're the greatest nation on earth

Fucking give me a break with that nonsense, it's a lie surrounded by an ever-spiraling vortex of hubris

274 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:59:06pm

re: #273 WindUpBird

Um, we are the greatest nation on earth. Do you see moving to Mexico, Kenya, Afghanistan, India...etc, in your future? Be grateful, and work to make the rest of the world better.

275 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:59:41pm

re: #268 WindUpBird

because it has nothing to do with marijuana and everything to do with the police looking for the easy pickins and the disadvantaged

I had a young friend who, once upon a ime, got into some legal trouble with her friends. I just sighed and talked to my personal attorney and when the case came to court, well, guess who was the only one there with her own attorney? Yep.

She ended up with a small bit of probation. Only because I paid for her to have a real lawyer. If I hadn't, she probably would have been granted an all expenses paid vacation to Taycheedah, Wisconsin for several years and that would have done no one any good.

Thus the lesson of John Adams and his defense of the British soldier's resonates down through the centuries.

276 Lidane  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:00:02pm

re: #249 The Yankee

I always thought it was widely considered that Ulysses S. Grant was the worst president this country ever had.

James Buchanan was miles worse, since he basically let the Civil War happen.

277 sagehen  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:02:32pm

re: #249 The Yankee

I always thought it was widely considered that Ulysses S. Grant was the worst president this country ever had.

That's neo-confederate revisionism -- they hated him because he took on the Klan and whipped their pasty sheeted asses, so a scandal was drummed up and his name dragged through the mud for a century or so.

278 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:04:01pm

OT, a church in Hacienda Heights down in SoCal was hit with a Molotov cocktail, and burned out. It's the home church of a good friend of my father's from his parish.

Police are investigating it as a hate crime.

Prayers for the congregation are requested--this is rough right before Holy Week.

279 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:05:40pm

BTW, regarding my Page-in-progress (one of many... sigh...) I mentioned upstream, I'd like to do a really good job on it so I need to do more research about the OT. I'm much more aware of the NT development and the period of the Roman empire and Christian history than I am of the transition of the Levant a few centuries before and during Hellenic period. Not that my hoped-for-Page would be totally consumed with aspect, but if I'm going to write about the "magick" of the written word I need to become more comfortable with the spread of learning from the 7th century BC to the 1st century BC (and the arrival of the Romans.)

280 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:09:25pm

re: #278 SanFranciscoZionist

OT, a church in Hacienda Heights down in SoCal was hit with a Molotov cocktail, and burned out. It's the home church of a good friend of my father's from his parish.

Police are investigating it as a hate crime.

Prayers for the congregation are requested--this is rough right before Holy Week.

ah, damn. I'll pray all week for them. Amen.

281 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:10:09pm

re: #277 sagehen

That's neo-confederate revisionism -- they hated him because he took on the Klan and whipped their pasty sheeted asses, so a scandal was drummed up and his name dragged through the mud for a century or so.

Indeed. Grant was not top-tier as a president, but he wasn't a failure either. But the South hated him and heaped the dirt on him. That his tactics relied strongly on attrition also made him easy to portray as a thoughtless butcher. Grants autobiography stemmed the tide in the late 1880'2 and the 1890's, but soon the slanders were resumed. The single mindedness of Grants detractors proven more long-lasting than his supporters. It was not until the 1960's that people began to reevaluate Grant and see him for what he really was. but the slanders have not yet ended (with various Neo-Confederate attacks emerging lately and and Michael Moore's slander of Grant in regards to the NRA in Bowling for Columbine).

282 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:10:23pm

re: #278 SanFranciscoZionist

And, that is a neighborhood, that needs and believes in it's parish.
IIRC Cardinal Mahoney spoke of this.
[Link: cardinalrogermahonyblogsla.blogspot.com...]
It's not on his blog, yet.

283 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:14:01pm

I'm not a personal fan of Cardinal Mahoney, I do think it's very human of him to have been a "traffic tipster" for the radio traffic. I still think he was and is wrong to have built a massive cathedral ( however beautiful) in LA. It was built with the funds of very poor parishioners.

284 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:23:32pm

G'night all, gotta go. Have a great night!

285 The Yankee  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:25:55pm

re: #281 Dark_Falcon

Indeed. Grant was not top-tier as a president, but he wasn't a failure either. But the South hated him and heaped the dirt on him. That his tactics relied strongly on attrition also made him easy to portray as a thoughtless butcher. Grants autobiography stemmed the tide in the late 1880'2 and the 1890's, but soon the slanders were resumed. The single mindedness of Grants detractors proven more long-lasting than his supporters. It was not until the 1960's that people began to reevaluate Grant and see him for what he really was. but the slanders have not yet ended (with various Neo-Confederate attacks emerging lately and and Michael Moore's slander of Grant in regards to the NRA in Bowling for Columbine).

Really, I didn't know that. I think I got the impression that Grant was a bad President from a High School History Book (it was one that said the South lost the war though) and it was in a school in NJ.
Beware though their are people trying to do the same thing to JFK saying that he got us into all the problems that he got us out of.

286 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:30:53pm

Good night, all.

287 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:35:59pm

Well folks, I have great news. Paul Ryan has declared the he will sign on to raising the debt limit and do so without conditions.

Oh wait, sorry, I misread that last part. He's saying he's "open" to raising the debt limit, but only if the Democrats agree to more spending cuts.

When asked by Schieffer what conditions Republicans would demand, Ryan said that they were "not really interested in negotiating through the media," but added that they wanted assurance of concessions, potentially including spending cuts and debt caps, in order to vote for the increase.

"What we're saying here is spending cuts and controls in conjunction with raising the debt limit," he told Schieffer. "That's what we've been saying all along."

When pressed as to whether or not Republicans would still vote for raising the debt limit if their demands were not met, Ryan said no.

"I do not ... no, we won't raise it, just simply raise the debt limit," he said. "We will vote to have spending cuts and controls in conjunction with the debt limit increase."

Note that, unlike a budgetary crisis and government shutdown, failure to raise the debt ceiling could spell economic ruination, not simply for the US, but for most of the First World. But hey, the Republicans care for America and not just their political careers...right?

/

288 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:36:12pm

re: #283 Floral Giraffe

I'm not a personal fan of Cardinal Mahoney, I do think it's very human of him to have been a "traffic tipster" for the radio traffic. I still think he was and is wrong to have built a massive cathedral ( however beautiful) in LA. It was built with the funds of very poor parishioners.

We have a similar edifice in Oakland. With similar fiscal issues. Also, from the outside at least, it's hideous. Inside it's...interesting.

289 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 10:41:35pm

re: #287 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

One of the many ways in which the US Constitution is now out of date and needs some serious changes is how it deals with the raising and spending of money.

The yearly budgets, for example. Yes, it does make a particular exception in the case of the military (which is exploited), but every time I hear someone claim that the gov't should be run like a private enterprise I want to ask them if said private enterprise's entire funding system vanishes at the end of every fiscal year.

The Constitution needs an amendment that allows the gov't to raise taxes for 1, 2, or even 3 year spending accounts.

As for a "debt ceiling" - it's not even a concept that works well because the US gov't makes promises that it puts into laws that far exceed any such "ceiling". Which takes precedent - a law that requires the gov't to spend money, or a law that makes a "ceiling"? It doesn't make sense.

290 sagehen  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:24:14pm

re: #289 freetoken

The other big problem, of course, is that when the economy is so bad you have no revenue, if you're a private enterprise that means there's no customers. Nobody needs your goods or services, it's a good time to stop buying supplies and you don't need a staff. Just close up shop for a while.

For the government, when the economy is so bad that revenues are down, that's exactly when your services are needed most.

291 freetoken  Sun, Apr 17, 2011 11:28:21pm

re: #290 sagehen

For the government, when the economy is so bad that revenues are down, that's exactly when your services are needed most.

KEYNESIAN!!

292 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 12:01:36am

re: #274 Floral Giraffe

Um, we are the greatest nation on earth. Do you see moving to Mexico, Kenya, Afghanistan, India...etc, in your future? Be grateful, and work to make the rest of the world better.

Okay, any reason why you dishonestly went with India or Afghanistan? because that seems like pretty pretty shitty garbage to me.

So. Asterisks indicate I have been to these places. Tildes mean enough of my good friends have been that I trust their opinion.

if I were inclined, I could enjoy moving to:

Belgium! *

France! *

Norway! ~

Denmark. ~

germany! Particularly Munich! *

Canada! *

Switzerland. *

Did I mention Flanders? Whoops, that's the other part of Belgium.

England! * I even have family there!

And in every single one of these countries, I have friends.

So yeah.

We're a great big beast. That is how we're great. Like sharks are "great". We're great in size in power. Not in morality, or advancement, per capita. Not in intelligence per capita. certainly not in how we treat the least among us. Certainly not in health, or education.

So what does that leave us with?

Isn't that in the bible or something? How we treat the least among us? We treat the least among our people like utter fucking dogshit compared to our cosmic wealth as a nation. And we treat poor nations even worse.

"Great" nations don't do what we do. Great nations don't allow people in power like Jesse Helms. Rick Perry. Haley Barbour. Michelle Bachman,Great nations aren't teeming with racists who think the president is a black muslim interloper. Great nations don't bomb abortion clinics.

Not great. We're a nation. That's as far as I'll go. I am grateful for Seattle. And Portland. because in these places I see reason. I am grateful for the parts of America that make sense. And no, you'll never ever be able to convince me otherwise. Here's what I will say. I love Portland far FAR more than I love America. And that's just the way I am. :)

293 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 12:03:28am

re: #278 SanFranciscoZionist

OT, a church in Hacienda Heights down in SoCal was hit with a Molotov cocktail, and burned out. It's the home church of a good friend of my father's from his parish.

Police are investigating it as a hate crime.

Prayers for the congregation are requested--this is rough right before Holy Week.

More of our allegedly "great" nation at work. :(

294 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 12:04:10am

sorry for the verbosity guys, I just can't take the jingoistic lies anymore

295 freetoken  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:13:20am
296 freetoken  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:18:25am
297 boxhead  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:39:18am

re: #294 WindUpBird

sorry for the verbosity guys, I just can't take the jingoistic lies anymore

I feel you..... absolutely do I feel you.... For me is that USA should be the one. Our Constitution is awesome. Too bad all the jackasses have perverted it to the point where one does not even recognize it anymore...

298 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:40:51am

re: #297 boxhead

I feel you... absolutely do I feel you... For me is that USA should be the one. Our Constitution is awesome. Too bad all the jackasses have perverted it to the point where one does not even recognize it anymore...

it's just so frustrating -_-

299 laZardo  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:41:32am

So they're recording gun noises for the latest Ace Combat game and the producers head down to an Arizona firing range to record them.

Naturally, this means they have to actually fire it at something.

300 boxhead  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:42:44am

re: #298 WindUpBird

it's just so frustrating -_-

yes... Having a son just starting college makes me feel even more sensitive to this topic. And people wonder why I drink.....

*sigh*

301 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:48:14am

re: #297 boxhead

I feel you... absolutely do I feel you... For me is that USA should be the one. Our Constitution is awesome. Too bad all the jackasses have perverted it to the point where one does not even recognize it anymore...

I love the constitution as well!


But it can be ignored with enough pull. All laws can be ignored by those powerful enough. If the ultra-powerful can ignore laws, and the courts are staked right? Then the constitution is just history. Just another thing like the Magna Carta that children are bored with in school. Doesn't matter any more than my bar tab. All men are created equal?

Not according to the laws of our country. Not according to America.

So yeah. Not great. Not great at all. Floral Giraffe? i'm a queer. And I'm not equal to you according to our fake ass "great" nation. According to the Republican party? The one you've defended? I'm a RAPIST. So please don't tell me to chill. I will not. I will be happily, happily! banned by Charles before I do what you say. I am not here to make your life easier.

302 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:50:17am

re: #300 boxhead

yes... Having a son just starting college makes me feel even more sensitive to this topic. And people wonder why I drink...

*sigh*

People wonder why I do art. I do because it's real to me and unambiguously positive. Unlike this increasingly rotted, nasty thing we call America.

303 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:50:47am

re: #299 laZardo

So they're recording gun noises for the latest Ace Combat game and the producers head down to an Arizona firing range to record them.

Naturally, this means they have to actually fire it at something.

that appears to be a mk1 Golf!

304 laZardo  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:52:53am

re: #302 WindUpBird

People wonder why I do art. I do because it's real to me and unambiguously positive. Unlike this increasingly rotted, nasty thing we call America.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. ;3

305 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:54:23am

re: #304 laZardo

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. ;3

ahahahaha well yeah I'm sure it's not positive to Tipper Gore

306 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:55:24am

re: #299 laZardo

man, can I just say, you got balls and you piss people off and occasionally I go "MAN he's throwing some fives!" and sometimes I don't quite agree, but you are not backing down. respect for that :)

307 freetoken  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:06:16am

PZed takes on Scott Adams:

Why sockpuppetry is stupid

Because when you're exposed, you look like an even more gargantuan idiot and pathetic narcissist. Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert, has been discovered to have tried to pad his reputation with a fake ID … he's used the pseudonym "PlannedChaos" to go around the web praising Scott Adams as a "certified genius".

You know, it's a good rule of thumb that if you have to announce that you're a genius, you aren't a genius.

I've been remarking on Adams' stupidity for years. He's a creationist apologist who doesn't understand science, and the kind of insipid apologist for religion who thinks Pascal's wager is a good argument. It's no surprise that he had to cobble up imaginary sycophants to make himself look good.

[...]

The comics business must be slowing down for Adams.

308 boxhead  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:07:48am

re: #301 WindUpBird

I love the constitution as well!

But it can be ignored with enough pull. All laws can be ignored by those powerful enough. If the ultra-powerful can ignore laws, and the courts are staked right? Then the constitution is just history. Just another thing like the Magna Carta that children are bored with in school. Doesn't matter any more than my bar tab. All men are created equal?

Not according to the laws of our country. Not according to America.

So yeah. Not great. Not great at all. Floral Giraffe? i'm a queer. And I'm not equal to you according to our fake ass "great" nation. According to the Republican party? The one you've defended? I'm a RAPIST. So please don't tell me to chill. I will not. I will be happily, happily! banned by Charles before I do what you say. I am not here to make your life easier.

Lots of issues here that all are pertinent and am am also passionate over. The powers that be today have destroyed the intent of the those that started our Country. IMHO I do not see a way back to where we should be. (obviously not mentioning Jefferson's quote about trees of liberty.)

I will never tell you to chill when I am in a constant burn over this. Our Country has been taken from us by greedy ass bastards. I cannot begin to tell you how I feel about it. The government should never have the power to control how people live, interact, make contracts with others, etc as long as those said actions do not infringe upon the Rights of others.

(arr... many words were added and erased in the name of restraint.)

damn Windupbird... You sure know how to kill my buzz with serious topics... :p

309 boxhead  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:15:46am

re: #302 WindUpBird

People wonder why I do art. I do because it's real to me and unambiguously positive. Unlike this increasingly rotted, nasty thing we call America.

Because art lets you be you without others interference. That is a good thing.

I wish I could provide evidence that would disprove your last sentence...... Honestly I cannot....

damn.... need to open another beer now...

310 boxhead  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:28:50am

Watching HBO's Game of Thrones I saved on my DVR now.... If any of you have read the books I know you have watched this. If you have not read the books, do so before watching. The books are riveting.

i have huge expectations for this show. HBO has a great track record...

good times...

311 freetoken  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:33:52am
312 laZardo  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:34:12am

I suppose what I love about America is that it's "alive" in being dirty and dangerous. The most famous figures and events in the history of America from at least the mid-19th century aren't all about royal or imperial conquest or international manipulation. A lot of them had something to do with bringing rights to the people. Lincoln, the early 20th Century labor movements, civil rights movements in the 1960s.

By contrast, a lot of Europe lost their empires after the war. Not just mere "spheres of influence" but actual territories ruled de jure from their homelands. This must have probably taken a toll on their psyche that - despite having more of what Americans would call "progressive" services - would be responsible for the creation of so many of the far-right movements gaining traction in their nations.

America still has a pretty influential far-right, but goddamn if there aren't plenty of non-radical (in a sense) organizations that are doing their hardest to take the fight to them.

I suppose this repeated "historical" demand for rights went through ebb and flow depending on the times, but one thing it has done is ingrain the idea that our rights aren't just something to be taken for granted. It's not a pretty process, but it's this kind of "adversity" that makes one value it more. Plus, America is plenty big enough compared to individual EU member states that change comes slow if at all.

And that's all I got to say about that. :B

313 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:37:28am

re: #310 boxhead

Watching HBO's Game of Thrones I saved on my DVR now... If any of you have read the books I know you have watched this. If you have not read the books, do so before watching. The books are riveting.

i have huge expectations for this show. HBO has a great track record...

good times...

I'm already watching The Killing on AMC! Game of Thrones is in the queue though :D

314 boxhead  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:42:47am

re: #312 laZardo

I suppose this repeated "historical" demand for rights went through ebb and flow depending on the times, but one thing it has done is ingrain the idea that our rights aren't just something to be taken for granted. It's not a pretty process, but it's this kind of "adversity" that makes one value it more. Plus, America is plenty big enough compared to individual EU member states that change comes slow if at all.

And that's all I got to say about that. :B

I see our Country ruled by those that do not care one bit about "We The People". Dollar signs is their religion. Greed is their god.

315 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:43:38am

re: #307 freetoken

PZed takes on Scott Adams:

Why sockpuppetry is stupid

The comics business must be slowing down for Adams.

you'd think he would be smart enough to be clever. That's a really dumb way to game the internet, that's something that...well an old guy who doesn't understand the internet would do. A 50 year old who is clueless.

Scott Adams has become embarrassing and irrelevant. Fossilized like the old cartoonists. Andrew Hussie could eat that guy alive without even breaking stride.

316 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:44:07am

re: #314 boxhead

I see our Country ruled by those that do not care one bit about "We The People". Dollar signs is their religion. Greed is their god.

that's why I'm here in PDX. Greed ain't our god. We're all broke and happy :D

317 boxhead  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:45:36am

re: #316 WindUpBird

that's why I'm here in PDX. Greed ain't our god. We're all broke and happy :D

got a room to rent? :)

/

318 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:49:37am

re: #317 boxhead

got a room to rent? :)

/

I don't (the spare room is filled with my studio!) but you can score a room here for not much *_* I think a friend of mine pays...$300 a month in rent? has a "room" which is actually a massive basement, to himself, he's the kind of guy who needs the massive basement, he builds guitar amplifiers

319 researchok  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 3:18:48am

Morning, all

320 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 3:27:26am

re: #318 WindUpBird

I'm about to pay about 1,500 or more a month in rent for an apartment in the Upper East Side.

It kinda burns.

321 The Yankee  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 3:29:37am

re: #307 freetoken

PZed takes on Scott Adams:

Why sockpuppetry is stupid

The comics business must be slowing down for Adams.

Apparently you don't like Scott Adams, do you still find any of his Dilbert stuff funny?
Not agreeing with some of the things people do in their free time does effect the way I see their work, Micheal Vick being one of the biggest thorns in my side.

322 freetoken  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 3:32:11am

re: #321 The Yankee

I agree with PZed about the stupidity of the stunt.

And, while years ago I did read Dilbert (and bought the first books), I've not bothered to read it for quite some time, but that is irrelevant to the stupidity of using sock puppetry to pimp one's work.

323 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 3:44:30am

re: #322 freetoken

I agree with PZed about the stupidity of the stunt.

And, while years ago I did read Dilbert (and bought the first books), I've not bothered to read it for quite some time, but that is irrelevant to the stupidity of using sock puppetry to pimp one's work.

I liked the cynicism of Dilbert at its best, but the problem with his comics are it becomes the same note over and over again

324 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 3:45:40am

re: #320 Obdicut

I'm about to pay about 1,500 or more a month in rent for an apartment in the Upper East Side.

It kinda burns.

at least you don't need a car?


that does suck :P

325 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 3:49:20am

re: #324 WindUpBird

We're in med student housing right now. It's subsidized, so it's 'only' 1,200 a month. It's perfectly nice, but they don't allow pets, so we have to move so we can have the cats openly. Besides, it'll be good to not have every single person we see in the elevators and the lobby be another med student.

326 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 3:51:39am

Really good takedown of the 'abortion is black genocide' meme.

[Link: blogs.ajc.com...]

Oddly, the most vociferous critics of Planned Parenthood are also the least likely to support plans and proposals that might actually lower the abortion rate — among black women as well as among white and brown women. Take contraceptive use, which (you might be surprised to know) Planned Parenthood vigorously supports. Contraception accounts for about 35 percent of its services; abortion only about three percent.

If birth control pills and devices were cheaper and more widely available, more women would use them. Unplanned pregnancies would drop. The abortion rate would decline. But conservatives like Hunter have no use for family planning, period.

And what if more poor black women chose not to terminate their pregnancies? What if more desperate women without health insurance or decent housing or reliable employment decided to rely on the tender mercies of the social safety net for their newborns? Would they find conservatives in Congress rushing to shore up funding for housing assistance, food subsidies and health care for the indigent?

Well, this is where things get really strange: the more vociferous a critic of reproductive rights, the less likely the politician is to support Head Start or Medicaid or WIC, which provides milk and other nutritional assistance to poor pregnant women. They love those fetuses in utero. After that, not so much.

It’s a strange love, to say the least.

327 The Yankee  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 4:01:41am

re: #326 Obdicut

Really good takedown of the 'abortion is black genocide' meme.

[Link: blogs.ajc.com...]

There is another Left Wing Black conspiracy saying that the GOP likes things this way to force kids to grow up and either join the military or create more need for prisons.

I, being an atheist, would also add that this tends to help out the church. Since I believe an huge chunk of the people that still attend are either Latino or Black and poor.

328 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 4:10:17am

re: #325 Obdicut

yeah, monocultures in housing are a tad creepy. i didn't ever like living in dorms. I was considered weird because I didn't want to engage in all the dorm floor activities with the monoculture (lutheran university, guess who stood out?) Much happier living in an apartment where I didn't have to "perform" every time I walked down the hall

329 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 4:13:16am

re: #328 WindUpBird

My favorite moment of the dorms was when the bitch who hated me down the hall left me a giant chastizing note saying STOP SINGING!!! because I was (not loudly) singing along to a Rush tune.

So then I stopped singing! And turned up a death metal record to eleven. Oh, and went to the bathroom for a while. Whoops! Musta forgot that intro turned into blast beats and screaming! ^_^

330 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 4:13:35am

re: #328 WindUpBird

My wife will be more willing to openly neck with me in the elevator if she doesn't think that a future PI or professor might be standing there when the doors open.

331 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 4:15:38am

re: #330 Obdicut

My wife will be more willing to openly neck with me in the elevator if she doesn't think that a future PI or professor might be standing there when the doors open.

you two have the right attitude! ^___^


I couldn't imaging doing my thing-which-includes-wearing-weird-outfits-dancing-at-goth-nights if I were in Serious Med Housing surrounded by yeah.

332 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 4:31:24am

Another sign of the times:

[Link: reno.craigslist.org...]

A cook/baker/chef for minimum wage, plus tips.

And they want someone who will compose recipes. For minimum wage.

Just insane.

333 The Left  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 4:33:23am

re: #332 Obdicut

Another sign of the times:

[Link: reno.craigslist.org...]

A cook/baker/chef for minimum wage, plus tips.

And they want someone who will compose recipes. For minimum wage.

Just insane.

I was in Glasgow last week and saw a decrepit, abandoned building with a sign hanging askew that said "Job Centre".

Signs of the times indeed.

334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 4:43:26am

Stepped out onto the front porch, such a beautiful morning, took in a deep breath... can't stop coughing and now my nose is stopped up. But, it was totally worth it. What a beautiful day.

335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 4:46:25am

The pollen count in my area of Virginia has definitely been turned up to "11".

336 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 4:47:47am

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

This is my favorite place in the world, and it's 3,000 miles away:

Image: 02_limantour_beach.jpg

337 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 4:51:35am

re: #336 Obdicut

I hate beaches. I love the ocean. Difficult combination.

338 The Left  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 4:51:49am

re: #336 Obdicut

This is my favorite place in the world, and it's 3,000 miles away:

Image: 02_limantour_beach.jpg

Are you liking nyc, or are you homesick? Not that those are mutually exclusive categories....

339 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:00:03am

re: #338 iceweasel

I had a really sucky NY day yesterday. The problem with Manhattan is that it's the tourist destination of NY. In San Francisco, the touristy-areas are all sequestered in the north-east of the city, up in the financial district, Russian hill, the Wharfs, etc. You only get a few tourists trickling around elsewhere, and not even all that many tourists in Golden Gate Park.

Whereas when my wife and I walked through Central Park yesterday, it was just ca-rammed with people, residents and tourists alike. Too many people.

I miss that about San Francisco, the unhurried and uncrowded nature of it.

I like Central park in the early morning, when I often go there, when it's basically empty.

I like a lot of things about New York. But some days New York is just aggravating in a way that San Francisco almost never was.

Spring break for my wife is coming up, which will give us a chance to go to museums and otherwise enjoy the benefits of New York. We've been dealing with just the negatives for awhile.

340 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:03:41am

re: #337 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

California actually has a lot of awesome places with ocean and no beach:

Image: ocean-cliffs-point-loma.jpg

Image: 168440156_3d6fce5676.jpg

341 The Left  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:07:57am

re: #339 Obdicut

Central Park is best in the early morning. Jimmah and I went there to watch the sunrise from Hernshead. Renting a rowboat is very cheap too and we highly recommend it. Not on the weekends though-- as you say, too crowded.

We were married at Cop Cot, a scottish wooden building at the southwest corner of the park.

342 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:25:28am

re: #340 Obdicut

But...watch that first step... it's a lulu!

343 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:28:17am

My car has 281,000 miles on it. Just took it to my mechanic for a tune-up.

Walked back home. 18 minutes from leaving the house to home.

Sign that life is good? Your mechanic (that you fully trust) lives within a ten minute walk from your house.

Hope I don't have to go nowhere. Nothing else is a ten minute walk. Well... the kitchen is, but you know what I mean.

344 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:28:54am

re: #343 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My car's first tune-up, by the way.

345 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:36:30am

re: #310 boxhead

Watching HBO's Game of Thrones I saved on my DVR now... If any of you have read the books I know you have watched this. If you have not read the books, do so before watching. The books are riveting.

i have huge expectations for this show. HBO has a great track record...

good times...

Lot's of boobies. And I mean, gratuitous boobie shots.

Watched it with my son (25 years old) last night. Because of my hearing impairment, we had the closed-captioning on. I swear, the closed captions were strategically placed a whole lot of the time.

He said, "Stupid closed-captioning."

Laughed my arse off.

346 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:41:00am

Morning Lizardim. Ugh. The only reason I should be dragging myself out of bed at 6:00 on a Monday is if I'm on a fishing vacation. Sigh.

347 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:42:43am

re: #346 thedopefishlives

(pssst... 8:42am... you overslept).

348 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:47:18am

re: #347 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

(pssst... 8:42am... you overslept).

That would be 7:42 AM, and that's a function of the fact that I have to drive an hour to get to work, and that's AFTER I drag myself out of my bed, get dressed, eat breakfast, etc.

349 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:47:31am

re: #346 thedopefishlives

I get up between 5 and 6 AM every day. And I'm happy and cheerful five minutes after waking up.

350 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:48:01am

re: #349 Obdicut

I get up between 5 and 6 AM every day. And I'm happy and cheerful five minutes after waking up.

Is that how long it takes your coffee pot to brew?

351 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:48:59am

re: #350 thedopefishlives

Is that how long it takes your coffee pot to brew?

He has an IV drip...

352 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:50:19am

re: #350 thedopefishlives

Nope. I just wake up every morning brimming with positive energy.

It's possibly the most annoying thing about me.

353 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:54:27am

re: #352 Obdicut

My wife and I had been married for about six months, she was reading in the living room and I came bounding into the room (my nickname was 'Tigger' in high school. She stood up, looked at me and HURLED her book into the wall.

I said, "What's wrong?"
She said, "You! You're always like this, aren't you?"
I said, "What do you mean?"
She said, "Up! You're always Up! You never calm the fuck down!"
I said, "Uh... I've always been like this. You know that."
She said, "I expected it to die down! At least a little!"

Now? I come bounding into the room (I still do)... she just sighs and shrugs.

354 The Left  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:56:52am

re: #353 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I always loved Tigger best.

355 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:03:12am

re: #354 iceweasel

I used that song during a "Toastmasters" speech contest once. I was speaking regarding A.D.D. in Adults. Started out the speech with the song and a manic delivery. Took a ritalin and by the end of the speech (seven minutes) my entire personality changed to a calm, focused person).

I wasn't acting either.

Won the Toastmasters District speech contest doing that.

To prove that I wasn't acting? Had to do the exact same speech later that afternoon sixty miles away for Regionals... couldn't replicate the manic opening. Ritalin was still coursing through my veins.

356 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:06:04am

For all of you who will celebrate freedom tonight at Passover... Chag Sameach... we will have a interesting table of Jews, Christians, believers, atheists, far lefties, extreme righties, at least one real commkunist and a few pets.

The power of tradition.

357 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:07:28am

re: #356 Walter L. Newton

Fingers slipped on communist.

358 iossarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:08:08am

re: #352 Obdicut

Nope. I just wake up every morning brimming with positive energy.

It's possibly the most annoying thing about me.

Ah, the endless variety of human nature.

My personal record for snooze alarm resets was set in college. 18 resets, 3 hours, two missed classes.

359 iossarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:09:27am

re: #357 Walter L. Newton

Fingers slipped on communist.

There's a bad joke in there somewhere.

360 lazardo  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:09:41am

re: #352 Obdicut

Nope. I just wake up every morning brimming with positive energy.

It's possibly the most annoying thing about me.

How is a potential solution to the energy crisis annoying?

q;

361 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:11:07am

re: #359 iossarian

There's a bad joke in there somewhere.

No... not in this case... it really was a slip of the fingers, no hidden meaning or sarcasm meant.

362 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:14:07am

re: #361 Walter L. Newton

To be a fly on the wall...

363 iossarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:14:42am

re: #361 Walter L. Newton

No... not in this case... it really was a slip of the fingers, no hidden meaning or sarcasm meant.

Oh, I know. My comment was more a jab at my own puerile tendency to try to find "humorous" meaning in such innocent slip-ups.

364 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:22:11am

re: #362 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

To be a fly on the wall...

As I've mentioned at past Passover's, one of the guest was one of Ward Churchill's personal secretary's. We also have an ex-DA of Mesa County, a far left writer and wife (and off and on politician) from Boulder, a mouthy Italian Catholic, 5 or 6 atheists, A member of the USA communist party and a couple of libertarians.

We really try hard not to talk politics... it could be physically dangerous.

365 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:23:02am

re: #364 Walter L. Newton

As I've mentioned at past Passover's, one of the guest was one of Ward Churchill's personal secretary's. We also have an ex-DA of Mesa County, a far left writer and wife (and off and on politician) from Boulder, a mouthy Italian Catholic, 5 or 6 atheists, A member of the USA communist party and a couple of libertarians.

We really try hard not to talk politics... it could be physically dangerous.

I'm not awake... "one of the guest IS one of Ward Churchill's personal secretary's"

366 lazardo  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:25:02am

re: #364 Walter L. Newton

As I've mentioned at past Passover's, one of the guest was one of Ward Churchill's personal secretary's. We also have an ex-DA of Mesa County, a far left writer and wife (and off and on politician) from Boulder, a mouthy Italian Catholic, 5 or 6 atheists, A member of the USA communist party and a couple of libertarians.

We really try hard not to talk politics... it could be physically dangerous.

"Don't mention the 'I' or the 'P' words..."

367 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:25:14am

re: #364 Walter L. Newton


We really try hard not to talk politics... it could be physically dangerous.

If that's not a disaster trying to happen, I don't know what is.

368 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:28:54am

re: #367 thedopefishlives

If that's not a disaster trying to happen, I don't know what is.

Never a problem... the political, religious and secular make up of the guests is planned that way... my girlfriend's dead husband was Jewish, and he was a libertarian politician in Colorado... so, these people have been coming together like this for 20 years, and we carry on the tradition partially in his memory.

Our main emphasis at our Passover seder is the theme of freedom, which applies to everyone around the table, no matter their beliefs or politics.

It's actually a wonderful experience.

369 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:29:51am

re: #366 lazardo

"Don't mention the 'I' or the 'P' words..."

?

370 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:30:49am

re: #365 Walter L. Newton

I'm not awake... "one of the guest IS one of Ward Churchill's personal secretary's"

"guests" and "secretaries" and you've got it.

371 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:31:35am

re: #366 lazardo

"Don't mention the 'I' or the 'P' words..."

Penis?

372 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:32:02am

Bush strikes again...

WASHINGTON—Standard & Poor's cut its ratings outlook on the U.S. to negative from stable while keeping its Triple-A rating on the world's largest economy.

"More than two years after the beginning of the recent crisis, U.S. policymakers have still not agreed on how to reverse recent fiscal deterioration or address longer-term fiscal pressures," said Standard & Poor's credit analyst Nikola G. Swann .

U.S. stock futures plunged on the news, with Dow industrial futures falling 167 points. Bond yields rose.

[Link: www.marketwatch.com...]

373 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:32:43am

re: #370 darthstar

"guests" and "secretaries" and you've got it.

That's what lowly editors are for... thank you.

374 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:33:52am

re: #373 Walter L. Newton

That's what lowly editors are for... thank you.

I'll bet you spell-check your code.

375 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:37:01am

re: #368 Walter L. Newton

I am now the liberal at my wife's parent's house on Sundays at lunch.

Well... shit.

376 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:37:23am

re: #356 Walter L. Newton

For all of you who will celebrate freedom tonight at Passover... Chag Sameach... we will have a interesting table of Jews, Christians, believers, atheists, far lefties, extreme righties, at least one real commkunist and a few pets.

The power of tradition.

The challenge then, is to construct a single sentence that can offend everyone equally. I have faith in you.
/

377 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:38:19am

re: #366 lazardo

"Don't mention the 'I' or the 'P' words..."

Porn!
Eric Holder accused of neglecting porn fight
[Link: www.politico.com...]

I read that story when it came out last week but I didn't realize the letter they sent to Holder had 42 signatures on it....


The signatures on the letter from socially-conservative Republicans like Sens. Orrin Hatch of Utah, Chuck Grassley of Iowa, and Jim Demint of South Carolina are unsurprising. However, some fairly liberal Democrats also joined in: Sens. Dianne Feinstein of California, Tom Carper of Delaware and Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. Also on board from the Democratic side, though less surprisingly: Ben Nelson of Nebraska and Joe Lieberman of Connecticut.

When the left and the right get together and say "We have a great idea!".... I get chest pains.

378 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:38:55am

re: #376 darthstar

Give it a shot. I'm at a loss.

379 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:39:44am

re: #378 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Give it a shot. I'm at a loss.

You betcha.

380 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:40:31am

re: #377 RogueOne

There's only one aspect of porn that I'd like to see gone after, and that's the working conditions at the porn companies. As far as censorship goes, Feinstein has always been an ass.

Jello Biafra was right about her.

381 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:40:37am

Morning Honcos.

382 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:41:32am

re: #379 darthstar

Done!

383 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:41:37am

re: #378 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Give it a shot. I'm at a loss.

Try starting with...."A Christian, Muslim and atheist walk into a gay bar...."

384 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:42:20am

re: #380 Obdicut

There's only one aspect of porn that I'd like to see gone after, and that's the working conditions at the porn companies. As far as censorship goes, Feinstein has always been an ass.

Jello Biafra was right about her.

People who work as fluffers suck.
/

385 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:42:47am

re: #377 RogueOne

Porn!
Eric Holder accused of neglecting porn fight
[Link: www.politico.com...]

I read that story when it came out last week but I didn't realize the letter they sent to Holder had 42 signatures on it...

When the left and the right get together and say "We have a great idea!"... I get chest pains.

Porn - the one thing that can save the GOP's plan to kill medicare. Brilliant move. (I love it when, every few years, some Republicans get upset over porn and try to make it a national issue. It means they've cleaned out their personal libraries again.)

386 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:43:23am

re: #382 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Done!

Tell you the truth, I thought it would be harder than that.

387 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:45:26am

re: #374 darthstar

I'll bet you spell-check your code.

The code editor does that automatically.

Off to the supermarket, some last minute things for Passover, probably be more than one trip today.

I'll be back, off and on, Annoyance Inc.

388 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:46:50am

re: #380 Obdicut

There's only one aspect of porn that I'd like to see gone after, and that's the working conditions at the porn companies. As far as censorship goes, Feinstein has always been an ass.

Jello Biafra was right about her.

I have a friend who worked for a gay adult film company managing their office. He said he cut the owners a check every week for between 10 and 20K. The "talent" (actors, whatever) get paid about 10 bucks an hour.

Yes there's big money in the industry, but not as an actor.

389 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:48:19am

Quick aside... you know what I like about Jewish holidays? Most everything is open, stores, banks, post office, this, that... I can have a holiday and still have the convenience of taking care of bills and shopping and other chores.

390 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:48:38am

re: #388 darthstar

I have a friend who worked for a gay adult film company managing their office. He said he cut the owners a check every week for between 10 and 20K. The "talent" (actors, whatever) get paid about 10 bucks an hour.

Yes there's big money in the industry, but not as an actor.

But there are benefits.

391 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:48:55am

re: #388 darthstar

I have a friend who worked for a gay adult film company managing their office. He said he cut the owners a check every week for between 10 and 20K. The "talent" (actors, whatever) get paid about 10 bucks an hour.

Yes there's big money in the industry, but not as an actor.

Aren't the actors in it for the sex?
/

392 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:52:17am

ACLU: State Police Using Cellphone 'Extraction' Device
[Link: www.clickondetroit.com...]


The ACLU is asking why the state police is using devices that can gather data stored on cellphones, and why it is not telling the public about it. The ACLU said the devices could violate Fourth Amendment rights.

"There is great potential for abuse here by a police officer or a state trooper who may not be monitored or supervised on the street," Fancher said.

MSP released a statement this week that said it is working "in accordance with the Freedom of Information Act."

"The State Police will provide information in accordance with the Freedom of Information Act ... there may be a processing fee to search for, retrieve, examine and separate exempt material ... ," MSP said in a statement.

Fancher said MSP priced that information, pertaining to five devices, at about $500,000.

Related:
Why you should always encrypt your smartphone
[Link: arstechnica.com...]

393 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:53:41am

re: #388 darthstar

Seriously? I have a friend who works for a funeral home company for years. The company makes millions. I haven't seen his W2s, but I'd bet he makes less than 60K. Licensed mortician and everything.

It ain't just in porn.

394 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:57:00am

re: #393 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Seriously? I have a friend who works for a funeral home company for years. The company makes millions. I haven't seen his W2s, but I'd bet he makes less than 60K. Licensed mortician and everything.

It ain't just in porn.

To some people, those industries overlap. (shudder)

395 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:57:23am

re: #393 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Seriously? I have a friend who works for a funeral home company for years. The company makes millions. I haven't seen his W2s, but I'd bet he makes less than 60K. Licensed mortician and everything.

It ain't just in porn.

I have an idea that could supplement his income by at least $10/hr.

396 iossarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:59:37am

re: #393 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Seriously? I have a friend who works for a funeral home company for years. The company makes millions. I haven't seen his W2s, but I'd bet he makes less than 60K. Licensed mortician and everything.

It ain't just in porn.

Last time I checked, Walmart executives were quite well paid.

The somewhat unique problem in porn, on the other hand, is that on the one hand society has an insatiable demand for the product, but on the other hand it consigns the people involved in its production to an underclass status. It is, essentially, capitalism in its extreme form.

397 iossarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:00:30am

re: #395 RogueOne

I have an idea that could supplement his income by at least $10/hr.

Badoom, and furthermore, tish.

398 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:00:56am

re: #396 iossarian

Wal-Mart managers make decent salaries. 15 years ago most store managers I knew were making 6 figures.

399 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:14:48am

Dow - -229
ouch

400 iossarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:19:29am

re: #398 RogueOne

Wal-Mart managers make decent salaries. 15 years ago most store managers I knew were making 6 figures.

Absolutely. Obviously the foot soldiers make rather less.

401 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:20:41am

re: #75 reine.de.tout

I don't care about the internet stuff.

As far as his public career - I was not an elected official, but I worked in the public sector, and worked for a few elected officials, and I have respect for the offices, and for most of the people as well. I still believe, however, that his public service career was his dad's dream for him, not necessarily his own, but that doesn't take away from the difficulty of that sort of work or the fact that he served.

As to Gore being a great man - well, ya know . . . I'm reserving judgment for now. We'll see. He's been an effective man, generally, in whatever he's pursued, that I can agree on.

I had to go to bed last night, but I wanted to respond to this. I'm sorry I'm late.

Can you show me a link where it says that politics was not Al Gore's dream for himself? It would be really odd (unless it's another Republican slam against him which makes more sense) because he was interested in politics from the very beginning. It was hard not to be as a young adult in the 60s for one thing. Another thing, he was a huge supporter of JFK. He also ran for Freshman class president in Harvard his first year there so it makes no sense that he was pushed" into politics against his will. If you can prove that, than please correct me.

The facts about Gore are the facts whether you "care" about them or not.

402 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:54:31am

All right. Who broke the interweb?

403 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:58:56am

There's a big hawk that has a nest in a tree one street over. My dog insists that if she hits my fence just hard enough she can make the leap and catch it as it flies over. I've had to replace a dozen boards already this spring.

404 Targetpractice  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:59:26am

re: #402 Cannadian Club Akbar

All right. Who broke the interweb?

Don't look at me, it was like that when I got here!

/

405 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:00:08am
406 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:00:41am

re: #401 marjoriemoon

I had to go to bed last night, but I wanted to respond to this. I'm sorry I'm late.

Can you show me a link where it says that politics was not Al Gore's dream for himself? It would be really odd (unless it's another Republican slam against him which makes more sense) because he was interested in politics from the very beginning. It was hard not to be as a young adult in the 60s for one thing. Another thing, he was a huge supporter of JFK. He also ran for Freshman class president in Harvard his first year there so it makes no sense that he was pushed" into politics against his will. If you can prove that, than please correct me.

The facts about Gore are the facts whether you "care" about them or not.

Oh, gosh no, I don't have a link. That is all simply put together from stuff I read over the years about Gore and his family. I characterized it as "I believe", not "it's a fact that. . ." for that reason.

As to the internet - yes the facts or the facts. When I said I don't care about the internet stuff - I meant the usual whining points about Gore's statements aren't something I subscribe to. That's all. Not that what you said wasn't factual.

407 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:02:58am

re: #405 darthstar

My feet...yesterday at about 3pm.

Gadzooks! Your feet look like plastic ski boots! Were you born that way?

//

408 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:03:42am

re: #407 Gus 802

Gadzooks! Your feet look like plastic ski boots! Were you born that way?

//

I was...never have been a very good dancer, or swimmer.

409 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:04:18am
410 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:04:55am

re: #408 darthstar

I was...never have been a very good dancer, or swimmer.

Never got picked as a partner for square dancing class.

"He was great on the kickball team but only when he kicked. Couldn't run very well though."

//

411 Targetpractice  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:05:02am

re: #408 darthstar

I was...never have been a very good dancer, or swimmer.

Write your story down, I'll get Hollywood on the phone. I smell an Academy Award in the making!

/

412 The Left  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:05:02am

re: #409 Cannadian Club Akbar

Must...not....click...

Damn you! heh

413 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:06:39am

re: #412 iceweasel

Must...not...click...

Damn you! heh

I use the big toe nail to clean between my teeth.
/gak!!

414 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:08:29am

re: #413 Cannadian Club Akbar

I use the big toe nail to clean between my teeth.
/gak!!

I'm trying to imagine that foot in a ski boot. I clip my nails three days before every ski weekend and my toes still hurt by the end of the day.

415 The Left  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:08:37am

re: #413 Cannadian Club Akbar

I use the big toe nail to clean between my teeth.
/gak!!

I'm not clicking on any teeth images you put up, I can tell you that!

416 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:09:11am

re: #406 reine.de.tout

Oh, gosh no, I don't have a link. That is all simply put together from stuff I read over the years about Gore and his family. I characterized it as "I believe", not "it's a fact that. . ." for that reason.

As to the internet - yes the facts or the facts. When I said I don't care about the internet stuff - I meant the usual whining points about Gore's statements aren't something I subscribe to. That's all. Not that what you said wasn't factual.

Ok, well the stuff written about him is mostly slander, the rumors, etc. and I think it's very unfair to him. The sacrifices he made for this country are numerous and he's been beaten down for it, only for political gain.

417 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:10:02am

re: #405 darthstar

My feet...yesterday at about 3pm.

Nice! I had to give up skiing. Lift tickets are too expensive and back country skiing is too dangerous to do alone.

418 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:11:42am

re: #417 Killgore Trout

Nice! I had to give up skiing. Lift tickets are too expensive and back country skiing is too dangerous to do alone.

I gave up skiing when I realized it doesn't snow in Florida.
/lying Realtor bastard!!

419 Interesting Times  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:12:42am

re: #417 Killgore Trout

Nice! I had to give up skiing. Lift tickets are too expensive and back country skiing is too dangerous to do alone.

Speaking of skiing:

'Bubble wrap' could boost' skiing says UHI professor

A scientist has suggested covering snow in 'bubble wrap' to help prolong the ski season in Scotland.

Prof John McClatchey said it would slow down the melting of snow by protecting it against rain and sunshine.
...
Similar methods have been tested in the Alps and North America.

However, Prof McClatchey said it could work better in Scotland because of a lack of sunshine to warm up the plastic.

The climatologist at the new University of the Highlands and Islands (UHI) has been investigating a decline in ski days in Scotland over the past 30 years as part of wider research into climate change.

Will it make popping sounds as one passes over it?

420 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:12:52am

re: #418 Cannadian Club Akbar

I gave up skiing when I realized it doesn't snow in Florida.
/lying Realtor bastard!!

A friend of mine was visiting from Boston last week and told me that he'd move to Florida but thought he'd miss the change of seasons. I told him, "You'd be surprised how fast you get over that."

421 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:16:13am

re: #419 publicityStunted

Speaking of skiing:

'Bubble wrap' could boost' skiing says UHI professor

Will it make popping sounds as one passes over it?

If there is a "lack of sunshine" in Scotland... then why the statement... "slow down the melting of snow by protecting it against rain and sunshine?"

422 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:19:55am

re: #419 publicityStunted

Speaking of skiing:

'Bubble wrap' could boost' skiing says UHI professor

Will it make popping sounds as one passes over it?

Bubble-wrap this. (first tracks I made on D8 Chute a while back.)

423 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:20:48am

re: #422 darthstar

Nice looking turns.

424 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:20:56am

re: #422 darthstar

Bubble-wrap this. (first tracks I made on D8 Chute a while back.)

Were you drunk? Those lines aren't straight at all.
/

425 Nevertires  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:24:25am

re: #420 marjoriemoon

"Missing the changes of seasons" is a classic way for those of us in northern climates to not think about those of you in warmer ones.

Though I do love the Fall!

...See - I am not thinking of beaches and sun in while snow falls in mid-April!

426 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:24:51am

Firefox keeps hard crashing. I think it's a mortal war to the death between AdBlock and One Weird Tip.

427 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:29:55am

re: #426 Alouette

Firefox keeps hard crashing. I think it's a mortal war to the death between AdBlock and One Weird Tip.

Chag Sameach.

428 Nevertires  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:31:28am

re: #425 Nevertires

"Missing the changes of seasons" is a classic way for those of us in northern climates to not think about those of you in warmer ones.

Though I do love the Fall!

...See - I am not thinking of beaches and sun in while snow falls in mid-April!

PIMF - I actually was thinking of Florida and it affected my typing!

429 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:32:51am

Good morning lizards.

This morning my 1 year old black lab got hit by a car and died right across the road. My girls were waiting for the bus as they watched me carry her back covered in a towel. It's was heartbreaking watching them get on the bus after seeing that.

What a fucked up way to start the week.

430 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:33:52am

re: #429 NJDhockeyfan

Sorry man, that sucks.

431 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:34:32am

re: #429 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards.

This morning my 1 year old black lab got hit by a car and died right across the road. My girls were waiting for the bus as they watched me carry her back covered in a towel. It's was heartbreaking watching them get on the bus after seeing that.

What a fucked up way to start the week.

How very sad. My condolences.

432 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:34:45am

re: #429 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards.

This morning my 1 year old black lab got hit by a car and died right across the road. My girls were waiting for the bus as they watched me carry her back covered in a towel. It's was heartbreaking watching them get on the bus after seeing that.

What a fucked up way to start the week.

I have no proper words with which to convey how much I feel for you....

My heart goes out to both you and your daughters....

433 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:35:36am

re: #430 Cannadian Club Akbar

Sorry man, that sucks.

I spent 2 hours digging a hole to bury her in. I am not feeling so good about the whole thing. The person who hit her didn't stop either.

Fucker.

434 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:36:41am

re: #433 NJDhockeyfan

I spent 2 hours digging a hole to bury her in. I am not feeling so good about the whole thing. The person who hit her didn't stop either.

Fucker.

Oh man!! I've had this dreadful experience. How awful for the girls! So sorry NJD!

435 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:36:44am

re: #431 Killgore Trout

How very sad. My condolences.

re: #432 jamesfirecat

I have no proper words with which to convey how much I feel for you...

My heart goes out to both you and your daughters...

Thank you. I'm weighing the thought of getting another one or waiting for a while.

436 The Left  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:37:11am

re: #429 NJDhockeyfan

I am so sorry to hear that and sorry for your loss. We had a black lab growing up. They're wonderful dogs.

437 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:37:17am

re: #435 NJDhockeyfan

re: #432 jamesfirecat

Thank you. I'm weighing the thought of getting another one or waiting for a while.

Get another. It'll be good for all of you.

438 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:37:52am

re: #434 marjoriemoon

Oh man!! I've had this dreadful experience. How awful for the girls! So sorry NJD!

I put my other dog in the house while I buried her. When I let that dog out she barked for an hour looking for her friend. It tore me up.

439 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:38:32am

re: #436 iceweasel

I am so sorry to hear that and sorry for your loss. We had a black lab growing up. They're wonderful dogs.

Fantastic dogs. I want another one.

440 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:38:47am

re: #429 NJDhockeyfan

Oh man that is awful. Hitting an animal (maybe except for the wildlands) and driving off should be the same as hitting a car and driving off.

441 The Left  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:39:37am

re: #439 NJDhockeyfan

Fantastic dogs. I want another one.

I agree with marjorie. I think you should get another one. It will be good for all of you, including the dog you still have.

442 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:39:49am

re: #440 Rightwingconspirator

Oh man that is awful. Hitting an animal (maybe except for the wildlands) and driving off should be the same as hitting a car and driving off.

Agreed. It's not the first time this has happened. What is wrong with people?

443 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:41:18am

re: #438 NJDhockeyfan

I put my other dog in the house while I buried her. When I let that dog out she barked for an hour looking for her friend. It tore me up.

Oh! So terribly sad. I'm truly sorry.

Visiting my ex's family in AL one year, my ex took the dog off the leash so "it could run free". So it ran free and never returned. Dalmatian. I'm sure someone took her. I was frantic. It was Thanksgiving and we spent almost the whole time trying to find her.

Anyway, I told the ex, "You better find me a fucking dog because I'm not making that drive home to Florida without one." We ended up with a little cockapoo? Kickapoo? Little furry thing with big dark eyes. I named him Fred. I held Fred for the 14 hours home crying the whole way.

444 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:41:52am

I might leave work early today.

445 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:42:01am

re: #442 NJDhockeyfan

Self centered and effing heartless. Ya know the right thing to do is take that animal to an emergency vet. Or at least stop and get help for the dog (or cat).

446 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:43:32am

re: #445 Rightwingconspirator

Self centered and effing heartless. Ya know the right thing to do is take that animal to an emergency vet. Or at least stop and get help for the dog (or cat).

I think she died right away. At least she didn't suffer in pain. This still sucks bad.

447 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:44:32am

Alrighty, gotta run. See ya'll tomorrow. NJD, if you can find a shelter dog, even better. Best of luck.

448 Ericus58  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:44:58am

When we lose a family pet - and the grief we feel, when those around us don't understand the depth of our pain it's hard to explain.

Sure, our pets are animals and we feel sadness when people suffer and pass away also.
But for the pet lover/owner the grief can be just as strong if not even more.
Our pets are just as family to us, and their lives are in our trust - to feed, shelter and love.

The loss is deep.
NJ - take care and give those girls a hug for us all.

449 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:46:19am

re: #447 Cannadian Club Akbar

Alrighty, gotta run. See ya'll tomorrow. NJD, if you can find a shelter dog, even better. Best of luck.

I was looking but after a few minutes I had to stop. It may take a few days to search.

This is a great site if anyone is looking for a pet: [Link: www.petfinder.com...]

450 Interesting Times  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:47:22am

re: #449 NJDhockeyfan

I was looking but after a few minutes I had to stop. It may take a few days to search.

This is a great site if anyone is looking for a pet: [Link: www.petfinder.com...]

I found this as well.

Black lab: [Link: www.animalshelter.org...]

451 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:48:07am

re: #448 Ericus58

When we lose a family pet - and the grief we feel, when those around us don't understand the depth of our pain it's hard to explain.

Sure, our pets are animals and we feel sadness when people suffer and pass away also.
But for the pet lover/owner the grief can be just as strong if not even more.
Our pets are just as family to us, and their lives are in our trust - to feed, shelter and love.

The loss is deep.
NJ - take care and give those girls a hug for us all.

Thank you. When the cat died I felt nothing. It's different when my dog dies though. She was surly one of the family.

453 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:51:30am

re: #452 Killgore Trout

Pamela Geller of AtlasShrugs.com recalls watching Beck use a story she wrote about campaign contributions the Obama campaign received from donors in Gaza. Many other publications referred to the story, Geller says, but only Beck refused to give her credit for it.

“I went through thousands of pages of FEC documents and it was an enormous task to uncover the campaign contributions from Gaza, a Hamas-controlled area, to President Obama,” Geller says. “It’s in my book and it wasn’t a secret that I wrote the story. I don’t know how to describe such outrageous and proud thievery. I like his work, but he’s a thief.”

454 Interesting Times  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:54:42am
456 kirkspencer  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:57:12am

re: #429 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards.

This morning my 1 year old black lab got hit by a car and died right across the road. My girls were waiting for the bus as they watched me carry her back covered in a towel. It's was heartbreaking watching them get on the bus after seeing that.

What a fucked up way to start the week.

My sympathies.

Something I share for everyone who's lost a beloved pet: Rainbow Bridge. I hope it helps, a little.

457 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:58:27am

re: #456 kirkspencer

My sympathies.

Something I share for everyone who's lost a beloved pet: Rainbow Bridge. I hope it helps, a little.

Worth posting, thanks:

Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.

When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge.
There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together.
There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.

All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor; those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by.
The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind.

They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent; His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.

You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.

Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together....

Author unknown...

458 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:59:32am

re: #457 NJDhockeyfan

Sorry man.
Losing a pet sucks.
:(

459 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:00:06am

re: #458 Varek Raith

Sorry man.
Losing a pet sucks.
:(

Yes it does, thanks.

460 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:00:08am

re: #377 RogueOne

Porn!
Eric Holder accused of neglecting porn fight
[Link: www.politico.com...]

I read that story when it came out last week but I didn't realize the letter they sent to Holder had 42 signatures on it...

When the left and the right get together and say "We have a great idea!"... I get chest pains.

As a writer of erotica, I'm getting chest pains as well.

461 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:00:53am

re: #452 Killgore Trout

TheDC Exclusive: Conservatives hit Beck for taking content without attribution

Glenn Beck is going to be missed...unless he can be ostracized by his own people before his last day at Fox.

462 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:01:34am

BTW, post #451 does not mean I'm anti-cat. I'm just pro-dog.

463 darthstar  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:02:02am

Sorry to hear about the lab, NJD.

464 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:02:52am

re: #462 NJDhockeyfan

BTW, post #451 does not mean I'm anti-cat. I'm just pro-dog.

Image: basement-cat.jpg

465 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:04:44am

re: #463 darthstar

Sorry to hear about the lab, NJD.

Thanks. It's gonna be a long fucking day.

466 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:05:32am

re: #429 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards.

This morning my 1 year old black lab got hit by a car and died right across the road. My girls were waiting for the bus as they watched me carry her back covered in a towel. It's was heartbreaking watching them get on the bus after seeing that.

What a fucked up way to start the week.

Aw, crap. So sorry.

467 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:06:34am

re: #461 darthstar

Glenn Beck is going to be missed...unless he can be ostracized by his own people before his last day at Fox.

Looks like that's happening already.

468 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:06:55am

re: #466 Romantic Heretic

Aw, crap. So sorry.

Thank you.

469 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:08:15am

re: #464 Varek Raith

Image: basement-cat.jpg

From a FARK thread the other day:
Dog:
[Link: 5z8.info...]
Cat:
[Link: 5z8.info...]

470 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:11:41am

re: #469 RogueOne

From a FARK thread the other day:
Dog:
[Link: 5z8.info...]
Cat:
[Link: 5z8.info...]

My cat is only happy to see me when she's out of food. My dogs are always happy to see me all the time.

471 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:13:04am

re: #470 NJDhockeyfan

I'm a big dog person. There's not much worse than walking into a house with no dog. After I lost my last one I got 2, every house needs a spare.

472 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:16:32am

re: #471 RogueOne

I'm a big dog person. There's not much worse than walking into a house with no dog. After I lost my last one I got 2, every house needs a spare.

I have one left. She will have a new friend soon. I don't know how long but soon.

473 Randy W. Weeks  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:25:37am

re: #465 NJDhockeyfan

Thanks. It's gonna be a long fucking day.

I'm really sorry to hear about your dog. Our 13 year old lab-retriever mix is at the vet this morning. She's lost 4 pounds since getting her shots Friday and is not doing well at all. My wife is really taking it hard.

Man, I love dogs and can't imagine not having any but it sure is tough losing them.

474 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:29:10am

I'm gonna go. Later.

475 Ericus58  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:30:09am

re: #456 kirkspencer

My sympathies.

Something I share for everyone who's lost a beloved pet: Rainbow Bridge. I hope it helps, a little.

oh fer cryin' out loud.... tryin' to make us blubber at work?!
Well done.

476 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 10:36:39am

re: #429 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards.

This morning my 1 year old black lab got hit by a car and died right across the road. My girls were waiting for the bus as they watched me carry her back covered in a towel. It's was heartbreaking watching them get on the bus after seeing that.

What a fucked up way to start the week.

I am so, so sorry.

{{{NJDhockeyfan}}}

477 Randy W. Weeks  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 11:01:40am

Ugh... pneumonia or lung cancer for poor Lacey. The vet wasn't sure so she sent the x-rays to a specialist. Should know for sure in the morning.

My wife is heart broken and to be honest I ain't doin' all that great myself. At least she doesn't seem to be in any pain right now.

478 ZeroGain  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 11:49:27am

re: #3 publicityStunted

It's more than tenancy, Genesis commands Man to be stewards of God's creation. Therefore a good Christian, Jew or Muslim (as they all claim to honor the same founding principles) should at the very least be a conservationist and support wise use of the environment.

But Gore? Gore's no more an environmentalist than Limbaugh. He says what gets him power and prestige, and this persona works well for him. Investigate his finances, back in the 90's he was happily accepting money from Occidental Petro, if I recall rightly.

This is from a simple Google Search of "Al Gore + Elk Hills" [Link: www.corpwatch.org...]

479 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 12:21:12pm

The right wing is very much in favor of people making money by exploiting and destroying the environment.

Making money by helping protect the environment is evil, though.

480 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 1:02:28pm

re: #429 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards.

This morning my 1 year old black lab got hit by a car and died right across the road. My girls were waiting for the bus as they watched me carry her back covered in a towel. It's was heartbreaking watching them get on the bus after seeing that.

What a fucked up way to start the week.

Oh man, I am so sorry for your loss. I got a little choked up just thinking about it.

{NJD}

481 Martinsmithy  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 2:33:56pm

I remember the old "fire breathing Al Gore" picture that used to adorn threads about him on this site, back in the old days.

I definitely have mixed feelings about the guy too.

482 Gus  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 2:34:59pm

A warm welcome to the slack jawed wingnut readers of Tim Blair's mouth breather blog.

I present to you this portrait of your esteemed wingnut leader, Tim Blair.

Be sure and visit our collection of articles on the angry old wingnut himself mates!

483 mph  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 6:46:19pm

Very few profit more from the status quo than Al Gore.

484 Charles Johnson  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 7:26:59pm

re: #483 mph

Very few profit more from the status quo than Al Gore.

Oil company executives make vastly larger amounts of money than Al Gore.

485 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 7:39:25pm

Just to remind everyone... one of the very first major politicians to passionately argue for immediate action to curtail climate change was "far left liberal" Margaret Thatcher, whose address to the UN back in the late Eighties, made Al Gore sound timid.

486 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:56:23am

re: #429 NJDhockeyfan

I just saw this. I am so very sorry.


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