Andres Serrano’s ‘Piss Christ’ Attacked by Christian Protesters in France

The French Christian Taliban vandalize Andres Serrano’s demonized artwork
Arts • Views: 35,917

After a campaign of incitement and harassment by French Christian extremists (including an archbishop), four people invaded a gallery in Avignon yesterday and attacked Andres Serrano’s controversial photograph, “Piss Christ.”

Civitas, a lobby group that says it aims to re-Christianize France, launched an online petition and mobilised other fundamentalist groups. The staunchly conservative archbishop of Vaucluse, Jean-Pierre Cattenoz, called Piss Christ “odious” and said he wanted this “trash” taken off the gallery walls. Last week the gallery complained of “extremist harassment” by fundamentalist Christian groups who wanted the work banned in France.

Lambert, one of France’s best known art dealers, complained he was being “persecuted” by extremists who had sent him tens of thousands of complaint emails and bombarded the museum with spam. He likened the atmosphere to “a return to the middle ages”.

On Saturday, around 1,000 Christian protesters marched through Avignon to the gallery. The protest group included a regional councillor for the extreme-right Front National, which recently scored well in the Vaucluse area in local elections. The gallery immediately stepped up security, putting plexiglass in front of the photograph and assigning two gallery guards to stand in front of it.

But on Palm Sunday morning, four people in sunglasses aged between 18 and 25 entered the exhibition just after it opened at 11am. One took a hammer out of his sock and threatened the guards with it. A guard grabbed another man around the waist but within seconds the group managed to take a hammer to the plexiglass screen and slash the photograph with another sharp object, thought to be a screwdriver or ice-pick. They also smashed another work, which showed the hands of a meditating nun.

(h/t: Transfromnation.)

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489 comments
1 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:39:01pm

People who destroy art and book-burners are extremely similar.

The Taliban destroy a lot of art, too.

2 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:41:51pm

The only sensible thing to do now is submerge the vandals in pee and take pictures of them.

3 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:42:00pm

re: #1 Obdicut

People who destroy art and book-burners are extremely similar.

The Taliban destroy a lot of art, too.

Those ancient Buddhas. Remember that? holy shit.

(this kind of makes me laugh though, how Piss Christ pissed so many people off for such a long time. Asinine.)

4 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:43:36pm

"One took a hammer out of his sock and threatened the guards with it."

Wait... what?

How the f*** does that work?

Those were either some very unthreatening (and unarmed) looking guards or that was one big sock...

5 albusteve  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:44:32pm

Piss Christ...hardly worth the effort, there are a couple of decades of rock and roll to burn

6 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:45:08pm

re: #3 Stanley Sea

I must admit I'm having a hard time equating the Afghanistan Buddha statues and an art piece designed to offend and belittle an entire religion.

7 researchok  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:46:31pm

I take no issue with those who don't like the art, are offended by it or protest the art.

Destroying the art is a whole other matter. If the piece is that upsetting, avoid it altogether.

All that the protesters have accomplished is to provide Andres Serrano more publicity.

8 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:47:01pm

re: #6 Rightwingconspirator

I must admit I'm having a hard time equating the Afghanistan Buddha statues and an art piece designed to offend and belittle an entire religion.

Oh agree. I just flashed on the Buddhas, that was insane.

Piss Christ was meant to piss off, and damn, 10+ years later it did. I call that successful art!

9 Lidane  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:47:28pm

I just checked. Piss Christ is from 1987. Have we really stagnated that much as a society when a 24 year old photograph turns people violent? Pathetic.

Also, you'd think that if God was real, he'd be a big boy and could handle something as benign as a controversial photograph.

10 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:48:22pm

re: #6 Rightwingconspirator

They're both art.

You're right in that destroying the Buddha statues has another layer of jerk-assery, in that it's destroying art that's important to those in another religion.

There is also no particular reason to disbelieve the artist's statement about the work, which is that it's attempting to address the commercialization of religious icons.

11 blueraven  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:48:28pm

OT: Wow...Jan Brewer vetoes Arizona birther bill. Good for her!

12 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:49:28pm

re: #8 Stanley Sea

Just my opinion.-I might call that successful propaganda. The Mona Lisa is successful art. Art designed to insult & belittle is just hate speech put to artsy media. Canvas, film, whatever.

13 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:50:18pm

The whole thing with the Buddhas really saddened me at the time. What an incalculable loss.

The vandalism of the piss Christ contains a certain irony that the destruction of the Afghan Buddhas lacked. This is amusing. That wasn't.

14 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:50:47pm

I guess Todd Rundgren had better stay out of France too:

15 albusteve  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:52:31pm

re: #13 Fozzie Bear

The whole thing with the Buddhas really saddened me at the time. What an incalculable loss.

The vandalism of the piss Christ contains a certain irony that the destruction of the Afghan Buddhas lacked. This is amusing. That wasn't.

brief and well said....PC can be reproduced in a few hours, whereas the Buddhas are a monumental work of ancient origin....no comparison, in that regard

16 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:52:36pm

re: #13 Fozzie Bear

The Buddha thing was a crime against history.

This is just stupid.

17 albusteve  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:53:30pm

re: #14 Charles

I guess Todd Rundgren had better stay out of France too:

[Video]

nice snag

18 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:54:40pm

re: #13 Fozzie Bear

The whole thing with the Buddhas really saddened me at the time. What an incalculable loss.

The vandalism of the piss Christ contains a certain irony that the destruction of the Afghan Buddhas lacked. This is amusing. That wasn't.

re: #16 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Buddha thing was a crime against history.

This is just stupid.

Exactly. Piss Christ has always made me just laugh. Such trauma.

19 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:55:11pm

re: #13 Fozzie Bear

Both show the same problem though. An interpretation of religion that has been bent through ignorance and malice.

As I was thinking about Cat Stevens earlier, I began to develop a hunch that the people who converted him were of a more fanatical type. I think this because of the fact that he abruptly stopped performing rock for a number of years. I've met a fair number of Muslims who like rock, metal, and rap, and know for a fact that metal is reasonably popular with people my age in the Middle East. Anyone know who converted him?

20 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:56:00pm

re: #14 Charles

Or if he takes to wearing a Burka...
//

21 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:56:47pm

I'm sorry guys

But I REALLY LIKE THAT PHOTO

because the point is that it's really a beautiful photo, just done with...pee.

pee's sterile anyway, I don't think Jesus is threatened by pee. i'm sure he'll be okay ^_^


Also, Metallica's Load and Reload? Covers by Andres Serrano. The covers are his semen and blood placed between glass.

So if you own Load and Reload.... :D

22 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:57:17pm

re: #6 Rightwingconspirator

I must admit I'm having a hard time equating the Afghanistan Buddha statues and an art piece designed to offend and belittle an entire religion.

you don't have any evidence that that was Serrano's actual intent.

Art is a lot more than your own reaction to it.

23 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:57:35pm

Destruction is just a poor way to make an argument.

If you disagree with whatever is perceived in Serrano's art, then create your own art instead glorifying your vision of god. Or just point to a cathedral.

24 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:58:56pm

How Christian of them.

25 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:59:28pm

re: #18 Stanley Sea

re: #16 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Exactly. Piss Christ has always made me just laugh. Such trauma.

it makes me laugh for all the people who can't stop talking about it, and thus continue to keep millions and millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of people riled up about his work.


He's already won. He won a long time ago. His art is on TWO covers of the biggest metal band on earth.

every step we take, mentioning Piss Christ? Money in that guy's pocket. Which is fine by me! More Andres Serrano and less Thomas Kincade. More sincerity and anger and real Art, less cheap fake product for dull housewives.

26 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:59:45pm

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

Just my opinion.-I might call that successful propaganda. The Mona Lisa is successful art. Art designed to insult & belittle is just hate speech put to artsy media. Canvas, film, whatever.

Where do you draw the line on what is designed to insult and belittle?

From what I understand the artist claims that wasn't the intent. If that is the case then it is in the eye of the beholder, which means that any art must in principle require prior approval of any group (perhaps you mean religions only) that might be offended.

You realize that just putting the word Mohammed on a picture of anyone will be offensive to some.

I think any religious belief that is so insecure that it can't just tell themselves (themselves, and not the world) that something said about them is stupid and then get on with their lives, is deserving of contempt.

27 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 5:59:49pm

re: #23 Obdicut

Cathedral are beautiful. Even the one in Avignon will do. (I don't particularly like the style of this one.)

28 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:00:15pm

Damage to private and intellectual property. I think a true Objectivist would have to by highly opposed to this act. All Tea Partiers must reject this vandalism immediately.

29 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:00:29pm

re: #22 WindUpBird

A lot more or a lot less. All up to the eye of the beholder. In cases where the intent is widely misunderstood, has to be explained and reiterated, well there we simply have a case of an artist whose work failed to be comprehensible as far as his or her intent goes. "Missed the mark".

30 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:01:06pm

re: #23 Obdicut

Destruction is just a poor way to make an argument.

If you disagree with whatever is perceived in Serrano's art, then create your own art instead glorifying your vision of god. Or just point to a cathedral.

detsruction is a great way to make Andres Serrano more powerful

I would NOT be surprised to find that he approved of them destroying his work

Once upon a time, a Marcel Duchamp glass sculpture was heavily damaged by movers. As they moved it into the gallery. Cracked down the middle.

He came in, saw it? Was overjoyed. Congratulated the workers and declared the piece perfect.

YOU ARE ALL NOW IN MY WORLD, GUYS. WATCH OUT :D :D :D

31 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:02:18pm

re: #29 Rightwingconspirator

A lot more or a lot less. All up to the eye of the beholder. In cases where the intent is widely misunderstood, has to be explained and reiterated, well there we simply have a case of an artist whose work failed to be comprehensible as far as his or her intent goes. "Missed the mark".

I behold great art :)


And the culture agrees, because he gains power.

You don't miss the mark when people are talking about your work decades after the fact.

That's when you hit the mark so much that you're splitting the arrow in half like Robin Hood.

32 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:02:57pm

re: #25 WindUpBird

The very fact that the reaction to Serrano's photo was so vehement proves the power of the artwork.

If you didn't know you were looking at urine, what would you think of it? Suppose this was presented as a photo that had been manipulated to give it that stressed golden look?

One of art's functions, if it has to have a function (which I would dispute), is that it can make your brain do more than sit there on idle. Andres Serrano succeeded at this, more than most artists could dream of.

33 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:02:59pm

re: #27 ProLifeLiberal

Cathedral are beautiful. Even the one in Avignon will do. (I don't particularly like the style of this one.)

I love it because it's simple and real, it doesn't look so gothic as to be incomprehensible

34 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:04:34pm

re: #32 Charles

The very fact that the reaction to Serrano's photo was so vehement proves the power of the artwork.

If you didn't know you were looking at urine, what would you think of it? Suppose this was presented as a photo that had been manipulated to give it that stressed golden look?

One of art's functions, if it has to have a function (which I would dispute), is that it can make your brain do more than sit there on idle. Andres Serrano succeeded at this, more than most artists could dream of.

yeah!

The instant Serrano comes up, it becomes a conversation that then achieves its own momentum. That's the best compliment an artist cna ever be paid. it's not cheap shock or laughs, it's the real thing.

35 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:04:37pm

re: #31 WindUpBird

When most of the talk revolves around issues unintended by the artist?! I think that makes my point. I'm not glad that piece got wrecked, nor am I happy it gets so much attention. Some art is just bad art. Even if popular or controversial. Lost in obscurity would have been fine with me.

36 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:06:08pm

re: #35 Rightwingconspirator

When most of the talk revolves around issues unintended by the artist?! I think that makes my point. I'm not glad that piece got wrecked, nor am I happy it gets so much attention. Some art is just bad art. Even if popular or controversial. Lost in obscurity would have been fine with me.

I wish Twilight hadn't sold well enough to earn a sequel let alone spawn a several movie franchise, but here we are....

37 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:07:09pm

re: #32 Charles

and that golden swimmy murky look, aesthetic wise, is really the sort of thing that I love, it's just usually when I see it, it's Holly Warburton doing it with photographs being projected through tanks of water, or it's a baroque painting done with dozens of glazes of oil and medium, or Dave McKean and Rick berry doing it with blend mode layers in Photoshop

38 albusteve  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:07:23pm

some shrewd businessman already has the merch concession?

39 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:07:25pm

re: #36 jamesfirecat

Agree completely. There are so many things wrong with that series.

40 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:08:49pm

re: #29 Rightwingconspirator

Only if you think the duty of an artist is to communicate widely, to be comprehensible as to their intent. In this case, Serrano's claim is that the ambiguity is intentional.

He definitely wanted to provoke, and he definitely understood many would be offended. He definitely didn't care that they would be offended, or felt that making this was important enough for that.

However, I don't agree in the least that this is like hate speech. There is nothing in this targeted against any humans. This doesn't say anything negative about Christians, or incite people against them. At worst, it says "I disrespect your religion, I treat it as though it's meaningless."

If someone made a piece of art of a picture of Obama floating in urine, I wouldn't think it was hate speech. Objectionable, maybe, but not hate speech.

One of my favorite authors is James Joyce. Many Catholics, and certainly the Church in Ireland at the time, found his books objectionable. They were objected to as obscene, but from Catholic grounds. Joyce knew, when writing his books, that he would offend many in his home country, as well as Catholics everywhere. He felt it was important enough to do so.

41 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:08:56pm

re: #33 WindUpBird

I like Gothic. I can't really give a reason why, I guess the intricacies of such buildings draws me in.

Favorite Mosque in the World architecturally is the Blue Mosque in Istanbul.

42 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:09:02pm

re: #6 Rightwingconspirator

I must admit I'm having a hard time equating the Afghanistan Buddha statues and an art piece designed to offend and belittle an entire religion.


you don't know that it was designed to offend and belittle. You would have to ask the guy who made it. That's my point.

HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS WHAT IT IS DESIGNED TO DO. :) because he deisgned it.

43 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:10:14pm

re: #42 WindUpBird

I do suspect that he might suddenly reveal that the liquid is not urine, because he seems like that kind of guy.

44 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:10:51pm

re: #40 Obdicut

communicating widely...

One of my favorite bands, Hidden Hand (Scott Weinrich's psychedelic metal project) NOBODY knows who they are. The guy is an unknown legend.

Profoundly moving stuff. And only people who are really REALLy into a certain subgenre of metal will ever know. :/

45 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:11:03pm

re: #43 Obdicut

If it is urine, somebody needs to drink more fluids and maybe lay off the vitamins.

46 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:11:30pm

re: #43 Obdicut

I do suspect that he might suddenly reveal that the liquid is not urine, because he seems like that kind of guy.

Yes, exactly :D

And then he'd just pull off the mask and he's actually Loki

47 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:11:55pm

I think piss christ is beautiful.

Seranno never ascribed notions of politics or religion to his work, as opposed to say, Michealangelo who purposefully used his work in the Sistine Chapel to mock his contemporary religious patrons.

48 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:11:57pm

re: #45 Fozzie Bear

If it is urine, somebody needs to drink more fluids and maybe lay off the vitamins.

well , maybe it was seasoned! or...left to evaporate...

49 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:13:09pm

The throwbacks who staged this attack are exactly like the mobs who rioted and killed people over the Danish Mohammed cartoons. And when they start terrorizing people in public places to do this, there's a very real problem brewing.

This is not the only sign of a dangerous rightward lurch in France. The forces of atavism are on the march in Europe.

50 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:13:28pm

This is a good example of why reifying a symbol can be dangerous. The art is more valuable, in that it has an intrinsic value, than the symbol represented by the art.

Most of us would not become violent if a representation of the symbol immersed in urine was something we do not conflate with the phenomenon symbolized. If this was a female fertility symbol, instead of Christ, no one would even consider destroying the photo.

51 freetoken  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:13:43pm

re: #6 Rightwingconspirator

I must admit I'm having a hard time equating the Afghanistan Buddha statues and an art piece designed to offend and belittle an entire religion.

I would not equate the objects that were destroyed.

However, I would equate the motivation behind the two groups that carried out the two reactions.

52 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:14:07pm

But on Palm Sunday morning, four people in sunglasses aged between 18 and 25 entered the exhibition just after it opened at 11am. One took a hammer out of his sock and threatened the guards with it...

53 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:14:07pm

re: #21 WindUpBird

I'm sorry guys

But I REALLY LIKE THAT PHOTO

because the point is that it's really a beautiful photo, just done with...pee.

pee's sterile anyway, I don't think Jesus is threatened by pee. i'm sure he'll be okay ^_^

Also, Metallica's Load and Reload? Covers by Andres Serrano. The covers are his semen and blood placed between glass.

So if you own Load and Reload... :D

I did not need to know that.

54 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:14:39pm

re: #49 Charles

Well, then it's a good that this kind of thing never gets out of hand in Europe! /

55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:15:23pm

re: #52 Gus 802

Is that a hammer in your sock? Or are you jus... oh, forget it.

56 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:15:24pm

Burn a Koran. Good. Piss Christ. Bad. Burn Piss Christ. Good.

/Wingnut

57 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:15:37pm

re: #44 WindUpBird

One of my favorite poet's is perhaps one of the least understandable.

Wallace Stevens:

A High-Toned Old Christian Woman


Poetry is the supreme fiction, madame.
Take the moral law and make a nave of it
And from the nave build haunted heaven. Thus,
The conscience is converted into palms,
Like windy citherns hankering for hymns.
We agree in principle. That's clear. But take
The opposing law and make a peristyle,
And from the peristyle project a masque
Beyond the planets. Thus, our bawdiness,
Unpurged by epitaph, indulged at last,
Is equally converted into palms,
Squiggling like saxophones. And palm for palm,
Madame, we are where we began. Allow,
Therefore, that in the planetary scene
Your disaffected flagellants, well-stuffed,
Smacking their muzzy bellies in parade,
Proud of such novelties of the sublime,
Such tink and tank and tunk-a-tunk-tunk,
May, merely may, madame, whip from themselves
A jovial hullabaloo among the spheres.
This will make widows wince. But fictive things
Wink as they will. Wink most when widows wince.

58 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:15:39pm

re: #42 WindUpBird

Well we have one contention above he had a specific different intent, and another his intent was deliberately ambiguous. If it's the latter, one would be free to perceive the insult. In any case this item seems to be more an item of controversy than beauty.

59 freetoken  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:15:47pm

re: #50 b_sharp

If this was a female fertility symbol, instead of Christ, no one would even consider destroying the photo.

Yup. A photo of an Asherah figure in urine would hardly evoke any response today, even though the residents of Canaan worshipped Asherah far longer than they did Jesus.

60 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:16:04pm

re: #56 Gus 802

You forgot to use the Wingnut quote thingy.

61 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:16:24pm

re: #31 WindUpBird

I behold great art :)

And the culture agrees, because he gains power.

You don't miss the mark when people are talking about your work decades after the fact.

That's when you hit the mark so much that you're splitting the arrow in half like Robin Hood.

That approach makes Herostratus an important artist.

62 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:16:27pm

re: #52 Gus 802

But on Palm Sunday morning, four people in sunglasses aged between 18 and 25 entered the exhibition just after it opened at 11am. One took a hammer out of his sock and threatened the guards with it...

///The guards suspect that at least two of the suspects might have been Italian in decent, as they were strangely skilled at wielding hammers..

63 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:16:30pm

re: #42 WindUpBird

you don't know that it was designed to offend and belittle. You would have to ask the guy who made it. That's my point.

HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS WHAT IT IS DESIGNED TO DO. :) because he deisgned it.

Sometimes the artist has no intent and has no idea why she did it the way she did.

64 samgak  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:16:48pm

I'm kind of in two minds about this. I don't support the vandalism per se, but in a way I'm glad to see it happen. There are a lot of left-liberals who call for restrictions on Koran desecrations and so on, who are pro-"tolerance" when it comes to offending Muslims but pro-free-speech when it comes to offending Christians. Having actions like this occur periodically stops cultural amnesia from setting in and reminds people to keep a consistent standard.

65 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:17:51pm

re: #64 samgak

There are a lot of left-liberals who call for restrictions on Koran desecrations and so on, who are pro-"tolerance" when it comes to offending Muslims but pro-free-speech when it comes to offending Christians.

Can you name one of these left-liberals?

66 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:17:57pm

re: #47 Jeff In Ohio

we don't blink an eye about beautiful works that have gotten their craftsmen killed in their making. We accept that!

But you know, urine is evil.

And rating it, I'm sure #2 is more evil.

Is sweat evil?

How about snot?

How about hair?

dead skin cells, fingernails, vomit, that sorta crusty I'm not quite well phlegm...

Christian imagery is absolutely everywhere in America. EVERYWHERE. Portland too! Next to the group home I worked at, there were four churches, two opposite corners form each other, a JW center, and then a converted storefront or something, I see their weird Christian slogan billboards.


Everyone who drives I-5 in the northwest knows that big BIG BIG christian billboard. You all know what I'm talking about.

it is more ubiquitous than any mcdonalds, any burger king, any box store, any rock star, any stupid Twilight book.

And when the culture of America is suffused with that imagery?

We get to make art of it.

67 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:19:29pm

re: #66 WindUpBird

I think a plastic Jesus on the dashboard, stamped out of a Chinese factor by workers who are persecuted if they worship Christianity openly, is a hell of a lot bigger desecration of the symbol than Serrano's piece is.

68 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:19:34pm

re: #50 b_sharp

This is a good example of why reifying a symbol can be dangerous. The art is more valuable, in that it has an intrinsic value, than the symbol represented by the art.

Most of us would not become violent if a representation of the symbol immersed in urine was something we do not conflate with the phenomenon symbolized. If this was a female fertility symbol, instead of Christ, no one would even consider destroying the photo.

symbols have power

which is why artists use them, they use the power for their ends, not the ends of the nice old lady with the Watchtower pamphlets or that mad old buzzard the reverend, shrieking and flapping about life after ya dead*


*i totally stole this line

69 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:20:26pm

re: #67 Obdicut

I think a plastic Jesus on the dashboard, stamped out of a Chinese factor by workers who are persecuted if they worship Christianity openly, is a hell of a lot bigger desecration of the symbol than Serrano's piece is.

agreed 200%

70 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:21:04pm

re: #64 samgak

I'm kind of in two minds about this. I don't support the vandalism per se, but in a way I'm glad to see it happen. There are a lot of left-liberals who call for restrictions on Koran desecrations and so on, who are pro-"tolerance" when it comes to offending Muslims but pro-free-speech when it comes to offending Christians. Having actions like this occur periodically stops cultural amnesia from setting in and reminds people to keep a consistent standard.

Who are those "left liberals" you know exactly?

I'm a left liberal and could you give me an example of an activity X that's you feel some people believe is okay when directed at Christians but not at Muslims?

71 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:22:04pm

re: #64 samgak

I'm kind of in two minds about this. I don't support the vandalism per se, but in a way I'm glad to see it happen. There are a lot of left-liberals who call for restrictions on Koran desecrations and so on, who are pro-"tolerance" when it comes to offending Muslims but pro-free-speech when it comes to offending Christians. Having actions like this occur periodically stops cultural amnesia from setting in and reminds people to keep a consistent standard.

are we bringing up mohammed cartoons again?

72 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:22:17pm

For the record, I'm cynical about modern artists and the line between self-promotion and promotion of their art. How much of Serrano's art was done because he felt the medium and the message blended and allowed him to express an artistic intention, and how much he chose because it was art he felt was commercially viable, is something only he knows. But the more controversial an artist is, the more I tend to assume they may be motivated at least in part by a monetary impulse.

Thomas Kincaid, on the other hand, I think is solely motivated by a monetary impulse.

73 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:22:24pm

re: #7 researchok

I take no issue with those who don't like the art, are offended by it or protest the art.

Destroying the art is a whole other matter. If the piece is that upsetting, avoid it altogether.

All that the protesters have accomplished is to provide Andres Serrano more publicity.

Quite Concur. Serrano should be confronted openly and publicly, but peacefully as well. Christians must live up to the standards Jesus set, and those don't include attacking blasphemers.

74 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:22:35pm

re: #70 jamesfirecat

Who are those "left liberals" you know exactly?

I'm a left liberal and could you give me an example of an activity X that's you feel some people believe is okay when directed at Christians but not at Muslims?

I'm a lefty mc left leftery lefterson liberally liberally liberal!


hahahaha what dumb

75 McSpiff  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:22:52pm

Too many posts to upding in this thread, holy cow there's some smart people posting tonight.

76 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:23:22pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. Serrano should be confronted openly and publicly, but peacefully as well. Christians must live up to the standards Jesus set, and those don't include attacking blasphemers.

Confronted how? he's won, dude!

What will you say? He'll smile at you. He's heard it all before.

There's nothing you could possibly say to him. he's three times as smart as you are. or me.

77 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:24:12pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. Serrano should be confronted openly and publicly, but peacefully as well. Christians must live up to the standards Jesus set, and those don't include attacking blasphemers.

Confronted?

78 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:24:22pm

I think by missing out on art school, I was simply not inculcated with the presumption that controversial / political art is better or more worthwhile than other art. Or more desirable. Controversy comes easily. Artistic beauty, well not so easy.

79 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:24:22pm

re: #64 samgak

I'm kind of in two minds about this. I don't support the vandalism per se, but in a way I'm glad to see it happen. There are a lot of left-liberals who call for restrictions on Koran desecrations and so on, who are pro-"tolerance" when it comes to offending Muslims but pro-free-speech when it comes to offending Christians. Having actions like this occur periodically stops cultural amnesia from setting in and reminds people to keep a consistent standard.

Well if we're going to use a left-wing/right-wing model here than how can a right-wing person say it's OK to desecrate the Koran as an act of religious and/or political liberty yet at the same time say it's NOT OK to desecrate the Crucifix?

But that's not entirely the whole story of course because you will find plenty of left-wing atheists that support the burning of Korans.

IOW, we only find it acceptable when the desecration is done on a symbol that represents an ideology we despise.

80 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:24:44pm

re: #67 Obdicut

I think a plastic Jesus on the dashboard, stamped out of a Chinese factor by workers who are persecuted if they worship Christianity openly, is a hell of a lot bigger desecration of the symbol than Serrano's piece is.

EVERYBODY SING!!

I don't care if it rains or freezes...

81 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:24:45pm

re: #71 WindUpBird

are we bringing up mohammed cartoons again?

Looks like it.

82 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:24:52pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. Serrano should be confronted openly and publicly, but peacefully as well. Christians must live up to the standards Jesus set, and those don't include attacking blasphemers.

He should be ignored, not confronted. He is a true artist, of the Beavis and Butthead School.

83 Kruk  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:24:55pm

re: #36 jamesfirecat

I wish Twilight hadn't sold well enough to earn a sequel let alone spawn a several movie franchise, but here we are...

Heh. I don't mind Twilight, but people comparing Bella to Buffy just plain irritates me.

I knew Buffy Summers. I grew up with Buffy Summers. Buffy Summers was my hero. And you, ma'am, are no Buffy Summers.

84 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:24:57pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Confronting him openly and publicly would give him more publicity as well.

If you think Serrano's intend it to offend, then ignoring him is the best option. He is then a troll.

Unless you believe the picture being shown and seen is somehow damaging, there seems to be little point in protesting it.

85 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:25:45pm

re: #64 samgak

I'm kind of in two minds about this. I don't support the vandalism per se, but in a way I'm glad to see it happen. There are a lot of left-liberals who call for restrictions on Koran desecrations and so on, who are pro-"tolerance" when it comes to offending Muslims but pro-free-speech when it comes to offending Christians. Having actions like this occur periodically stops cultural amnesia from setting in and reminds people to keep a consistent standard.

That's more a product of simple fear. The Catholics who carried out this attack are trying to recreate conditions of older days, when offending an outspoken and popular priest was a fearful thing to do. But they're also emulating the Chicago Outfit in their actions: using attacks to create intimidation. I'm not inclined to support such tactics, given the great damage they have done to my hometown.

86 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:25:52pm

re: #78 Rightwingconspirator

Whoops intended as a reply to Windupbird & Obdicut.

I think by missing out on an art degree, I was simply not inculcated or impressed with the presumption that controversial / political art is better or more worthwhile than other art. Or more desirable. Controversy comes easily. Artistic beauty, well not so easy.

87 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:25:54pm

PissChrist is about as offensive as a picture of Calvin peeing on Allah written in Arabic...

88 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:25:56pm

re: #72 Obdicut

For the record, I'm cynical about modern artists and the line between self-promotion and promotion of their art. How much of Serrano's art was done because he felt the medium and the message blended and allowed him to express an artistic intention, and how much he chose because it was art he felt was commercially viable, is something only he knows. But the more controversial an artist is, the more I tend to assume they may be motivated at least in part by a monetary impulse.

Thomas Kincaid, on the other hand, I think is solely motivated by a monetary impulse.


Thomas Kincaid. Google "these are great tits" for the REAL Christian Thomas Kincaid.

I don't think, I know. he doens't paint a lot of his own paintings. They're touched up prints sold as paintings.

Also, Kincaid undercut his own mall gallery Kincaid (Kincade?) franchise he sold. He sold the franchises, but then undercut them by personally selling work.

he's a dick, a businessman, and a very clever one. If his art is solely about demonstrating the ease at which Christians can be bilked out of money by just adopting the mantle of Christianity and cloaking your work in cheese americana, then he's an artist.

89 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:25:59pm

re: #75 McSpiff

Too many posts to upding in this thread, holy cow there's some smart people posting tonight.

Where? I must have missed them. ;P

90 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:26:06pm

re: #78 Rightwingconspirator

I think by missing out on art school, I was simply not inculcated with the presumption that controversial / political art is better or more worthwhile than other art. Or more desirable. Controversy comes easily. Artistic beauty, well not so easy.

I went to art school.

91 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:26:17pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Blasphemers!!!!

92 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:26:52pm

re: #87 JasonA

PissChrist is about as offensive as a picture of Calvin peeing on Allah written in Arabic...

But that's different! Allah isn't real!

//

93 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:27:16pm

re: #90 WindUpBird

I went to art school.

If you recant, you can still be saved.

94 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:27:22pm

re: #72 Obdicut

Regarding TK... his signed prints are much more valuable.

His employees bring him PALLETS, ten feet high with prints to sign. He even has pencil handlers to allow him to sign even more. He signs them on the back.

What a country!

95 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:27:48pm

re: #87 JasonA

PissChrist is about as offensive as a picture of Calvin peeing on Allah written in Arabic...

Um, wouldn't the picture of Calvin be offensive on the grounds that "Allah" is the Arabic word for God, also used by Middle Eastern Christians and Jews, where as Piss Christ only offends one of the three Abrahamic faiths?

96 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:27:56pm

re: #86 Rightwingconspirator

I don't think it's more worthwhile above, as I said above. I view it-- or the artist-- with more suspicion.

97 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:28:06pm

re: #83 Kruk

"Kill him a lot."
-Amalyn...

My favorite Buffy (movie) line.

98 freetoken  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:28:07pm

re: #49 Charles

Yup.

This is a modified version of bronze age and iron age warfare.

When one group wanted to dominate another, it was important to capture and destroy their "gods", visualized by destroying the figures/images of the gods. Then the victor would set up a new god that was the deity of the victorious city/state.

Here we see a next step - revanchist/reactionary "Christians" getting revenge for what they think is an attack on their deity, much in the way a band of bronze age defeated diehards might try to deface the (replacement) image of a foreign god brought into a local city as a sign of the foreign power's domination.


Cattenoz and his followers just can't stand that modern France has dethroned the Church - in an important sense the "image" of Rationalism and Reason has been set up in the temple (of the minds of most French), to use an analogy that would resonate with Cattenoz.

So Cattenoz now aims to replace the foreign god by returning his own.

What we see here is a deep seated expression of the tribal nature of Homo sapiens.

It's disturbing, but hardly unique. It's also a bit depressing, to see clearly how modern society is on an edge, able to be pulled back into the old ways of human societies of long ago.

99 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:28:19pm

But the theory goes. Your faith should be strong enough to overcome something like Piss Christ. More or less.

100 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:28:36pm

re: #95 jamesfirecat

Um, wouldn't the picture of Calvin be offensive on the grounds that "Allah" is the Arabic word for God, also used by Middle Eastern Christians and Jews, where as Piss Christ only offends one of the three Abrahamic faiths?

It doesn't work that way.

101 jaunte  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:28:43pm

re: #88 WindUpBird

"When I got saved, God became my art agent."
--Thomas Kincaid

102 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:28:58pm

re: #78 Rightwingconspirator

I think by missing out on art school, I was simply not inculcated with the presumption that controversial / political art is better or more worthwhile than other art. Or more desirable. Controversy comes easily. Artistic beauty, well not so easy.

Who said it is?

103 albusteve  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:29:07pm

if Jesus is as hip as his followers claim he is, he'd have no trouble embracing the Dashboard Bobblehead....if not, then fuck him if he can't take such a minor spoof....it's hardly some trumped up desecration, good grief

104 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:29:09pm

Isn't that sort of what people are always complaining about the Muslims anyway?

105 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:29:12pm

re: #43 Obdicut

I do suspect that he might suddenly reveal that the liquid is not urine, because he seems like that kind of guy.

It was mango juice you fucking idiots!

106 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:29:29pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

The mystical demonic power often ascribed to Chicago perplexes me.

107 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:29:43pm

re: #78 Rightwingconspirator

I think by missing out on art school, I was simply not inculcated with the presumption that controversial / political art is better or more worthwhile than other art. Or more desirable. Controversy comes easily. Artistic beauty, well not so easy.

I'll tell you what I studied. i'll tell you everything I studied to the bets of my knwoledge.


Drawing

Painting

Bookmaking

Printmaking

deisgn theory

Color theory.

Comps and mocking up a 2d or 3d project, like a public sculpture or a very large book project.

CAD. (mostly for the furniture guys, but I made some fun Cad shit)

Photoshop for art AND photo retouching. Wildly different skill sets.

How to set up a RIP

how to use an ICC profile to get color correct prints that rfelect your monitor's colors (google that! It's a massive nightmare)

Pantone.

How to promote yourself to a publisher.

How to create a portfolio that grabs an AD's attention.

How to stretch and mount canvas on stretcher bars

how to understand anatomy in such a way that you can invent it when you don't have great reference

and this is my favorite one: how to build a website that works in Netscape!

You know what i didn't study?

Any of that shit you think i did. I'm sorry man. You just simply do not know what you're talking about.

108 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:29:46pm

Great art makes you think.
What does that say about people who destroy it?

109 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:29:56pm

re: #102 b_sharp

Windupbird. At least by implication.

110 jaunte  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:29:59pm

re: #105 Stanley Sea

Hefeweisen!

111 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:30:26pm

re: #84 Obdicut

Confronting him openly and publicly would give him more publicity as well.

If you think Serrano's intend it to offend, then ignoring him is the best option. He is then a troll.

Unless you believe the picture being shown and seen is somehow damaging, there seems to be little point in protesting it.

A peaceful protest is less out Serrano than it is of channeling the emotions of those who he is going to get a rise out of in a non-violent direction. Some people (myself included) find it very hard-to-impossible to ignore a insult of the kind Serrano poses. The need to reply and publicly rebuke the insult is too great. Thus the need to organize a "official" protest: To channel and contain the emotions of such people.

112 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:30:51pm

re: #93 Decatur Deb

If you recant, you can still be saved.

see my lates post :)


Am i the only one who went to art school?


Cornish college of the arts. BFA.

Guess who's making a middle class lviing solely from drawing weird monsters, indie comics, painting clockwork beasties and making video game sprites?

I am.

113 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:30:51pm

re: #108 Floral Giraffe

Great art makes you think.
What does that say about people who destroy it?

They don't want to think?

114 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:31:02pm

My wheelhouse, guys :)

115 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:31:27pm

re: #108 Floral Giraffe

Great art makes you think.
What does that say about people who destroy it?

That they're Performance Artists.

116 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:31:42pm

re: #64 samgak

GAH!
Runs around screaming!

117 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:31:47pm

re: #112 WindUpBird

Good for you. Seriously. Making money from your art is a tough row to hoe.

118 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:31:51pm

It's interesting I admit, but all this serious discussion about how some religions, perhaps a great many, maybe shouldn't be offended by this or that piece of art is really falling into their mindset.

Most of my life those same poor offended people have told me I'm going to burn in hell, or worse, but this brief comment is all the approximation of indignation that they will hear from me on that.

119 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:31:51pm

Cartoon Jihad
Piss Crusade!

120 APox  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:32:27pm

If the worst these people do is slash a painting depicting their deity in piss then I consider even the most extreme to be pretty docile.

I'd wager if someone were to make a 'Piss Muhammad' piece of artwork the artist would be beheaded inside of a year.

121 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:32:33pm

re: #79 Gus 802

Well if we're going to use a left-wing/right-wing model here than how can a right-wing person say it's OK to desecrate the Koran as an act of religious and/or political liberty yet at the same time say it's NOT OK to desecrate the Crucifix?

But that's not entirely the whole story of course because you will find plenty of left-wing atheists that support the burning of Korans.

IOW, we only find it acceptable when the desecration is done on a symbol that represents an ideology we despise.

Or it could be, at least in the case of atheists, that we're trying to show the symbol is just an idea, not something concrete with a value of its own. There is no way to desecrate something that is intrinsically valueless.

122 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:33:07pm

re: #107 WindUpBird

the closest we got to "studying political art and controversial art" was an elective class I took on performance art. We spent a little time on Serrano, but we spent way more time on guys in DADA, and that dude who build the motorized sculpture that shook itself to pieces and destroyed itself at gallery opening, once it was turned on.


I think i did my last paper for that class on Screamin Jay Hawkins, and I GOT AN A, DAMMIT

123 engineer cat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:33:08pm

re: #43 Obdicut

I do suspect that he might suddenly reveal that the liquid is not urine, because he seems like that kind of guy.

i had no idea that urine was such a powerful disruptive force

124 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:33:08pm

re: #119 Killgore Trout

LOL!

125 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:33:13pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

Feel free. However, I do think that by doing so you're engaging in behavior Serrano wants. I think he's probably happy to have had his art attacked. If you think he's intellectually honest, then he's probably happy because it means that his art stays in the public mind, continues to be thought about. If you think he's just in it for the money, the price of his other art probably just went up.

126 freetoken  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:33:27pm

re: #120 APox

You did realize that they had to assault two people (guards) to accomplish their deed?

127 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:33:40pm

re: #120 APox

I think the point is to respect the art.
Not how it's defiled.

128 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:33:44pm

BBL
Gotta chop up dinner veggies.

129 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:33:48pm

re: #115 Decatur Deb

That they're Performance Artists.

jinx


You know else is performance art?


All rock bands. All of them

130 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:34:01pm

re: #123 engineer dog

i had no idea that urine was such a powerful disruptive force

best comment of the day

131 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:34:37pm

re: #121 b_sharp

There is no way to desecrate something that is intrinsically valueless.

Are you suggesting religion is intrinsically valueless?

:=)

132 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:35:01pm

re: #123 engineer dog

i had no idea that urine was such a powerful disruptive force

Human secretions are deeply connected to human emotions.

133 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:35:02pm

re: #123 engineer dog

i had no idea that urine was such a powerful disruptive force

It does cause quite a ruckus when I attempt to pee on people.

134 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:35:13pm

re: #121 b_sharp

Or it could be, at least in the case of atheists, that we're trying to show the symbol is just an idea, not something concrete with a value of its own. There is no way to desecrate something that is intrinsically valueless.

OK Then I could further qualify it with anti-theists. The value is subjective though.

135 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:35:14pm

re: #106 Fozzie Bear

The mystical demonic power often ascribed to Chicago perplexes me.

I'm not ascribing such power to Chicago. I was saying that organized crime has done Chicago great damage, which it clearly has, and also saying that intimidation attacks such as this one are a tactic using by organized crime. I was saying I did not want other places to suffer as Chicago has from such tactics. The reduction in organized crime in Chicago, when it has occurred, has left the city better for it, and left few more pleased with such a development than I. I do not hate Chicago, I love it.

136 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:35:21pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

A peaceful protest is less out Serrano than it is of channeling the emotions of those who he is going to get a rise out of in a non-violent direction. Some people (myself included) find it very hard-to-impossible to ignore a insult of the kind Serrano poses. The need to reply and publicly rebuke the insult is too great. Thus the need to organize a "official" protest: To channel and contain the emotions of such people.

and what if it's not an insult, DF?

What if his motives are more pure than yours?

he's making art.

You want to "confront his insult"

Who's the aggressor? You are.

137 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:35:35pm

re: #123 engineer dog

i had no idea that urine was such a powerful disruptive force

or that it could piss off so many people.

138 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:35:37pm

re: #132 Charles

Human secretions are deeply connected to human emotions.

that is the truth right there *_*

139 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:35:50pm

re: #137 Naso Tang

or that it could piss off so many people.

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

140 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:36:00pm

re: #132 Charles

Human secretions are deeply connected to human emotions.

Don't be so phlegmatic.

141 jaunte  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:36:28pm

Think of all the crying religious statuary.

142 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:36:43pm

re: #133 Fozzie Bear

It does cause quite a ruckus when I attempt to pee on people.

Man I know! Administration steps in, no exclusive rights for anyone

143 McSpiff  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:36:46pm

re: #109 Rightwingconspirator

Windupbird. At least by implication.

Implication is just another way of putting words into someone's mouth...

144 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:36:52pm

re: #120 APox

If the worst these people do is slash a painting depicting their deity in piss then I consider even the most extreme to be pretty docile.

I'd wager if someone were to make a 'Piss Muhammad' piece of artwork the artist would be beheaded inside of a year.

The fact that Muslims do it worse does not excuse Christians for acting like close minded bigots.

145 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:37:29pm

re: #141 jaunte

Think of all the crying religious statuary.

And me with The Exorcism of Emily Rose on AMC, which I turned off last night

146 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:37:35pm

re: #144 jamesfirecat

The fact that Muslims do it worse does not excuse Christians for acting like close minded bigots.

Biblical Balance Fairy?

147 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:38:19pm

An eye for an eye.

148 APox  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:38:53pm

re: #144 jamesfirecat

The fact that Muslims do it worse does not excuse Christians for acting like close minded bigots.

I agree, but I would also say that if this is as extreme as they get they are still, on my self-made religious wacko scale, pretty mild.

Not that I don't think what they did was completely wrong.

149 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:38:55pm

re: #99 Gus 802

But the theory goes. Your faith should be strong enough to overcome something like Piss Christ. More or less.

Well... I don't know. Strong enough not to damage the painting I think you mean.

I may think if someone wants to hang the Piss Christ in a gallery, I don't have to see it if it offends me. But let's say they made anti-Semitic caricatures and hung them in a gallery. Jews eating Muslim babies or wearing swastikas. I'm not the kind of person to run in and rip them off the wall, but if someone did, I wouldn't be unhappy. Maybe I should, but I wouldn't.

I don't know what that makes me.

150 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:39:06pm

The religious concept of blasphemy is itself offensive to me, and many other Atheists. I see this work as a celebration of my values.

There are so many ways to look at this. To protest it is to miss the point completely.

151 danhenry1  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:39:19pm

Could someone tell me what 'Religion', the artist was trying to defame? Or was it a belief system. Don't forget that there are some Christians who think that others are not real Christians and there are others that think that they are the only true christians. It must be a religious thing, everyone going off into their own little view of this great big beautiful universe.

152 jaunte  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:39:34pm

re: #147 Gus 802

There's more outrage to be milked from this art.

153 wee fury  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:39:45pm

Senseless destruction.

154 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:41:00pm

I really don't mean to be a total dick, rightwing conspirator

it's just, after the hundredth time a Responsible Adult comes to me and tells me what I was studying in art school? And uses Serrano as a bludegon against art school? I've heard it so many times. Hundreds of times. Maybe a thousand times by now.

What I studied in art school was challenging and exhausting on a level many of you don't understand.

You sit in a room for six hours, drawing figures that have to look REALLY ACCURATE on 3 foot tall sheets of paper, you're not studying "controversial art" You're studying life itself.

And your arm doens't feel none too good neither

155 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:41:02pm

re: #152 jaunte

There's more outrage to be milked from this art.

"It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven."

156 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:41:32pm

re: #120 APox

If the worst these people do is slash a painting depicting their deity in piss then I consider even the most extreme to be pretty docile.

I'd wager if someone were to make a 'Piss Muhammad' piece of artwork the artist would be beheaded inside of a year.

So do you think stupid-Koran-burning-preacher will be beheaded inside a year?

157 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:41:47pm

re: #150 Fozzie Bear

The religious concept of blasphemy is itself offensive to me, and many other Atheists. I see this work as a celebration of my values.

There are so many ways to look at this. To protest it is to miss the point completely.

blashpemy is just more arbitray rules


Say this, don't say that, can't you read the signs

158 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:41:52pm

re: #132 Charles

Human secretions are deeply connected to human emotions.

From your Guardian article, there was another one here that made this point.

The passion of Christ has always been associated with bodily fluids – it is true that artists traditionally stressed blood rather than urine, but they scarcely stinted on the revulsion of Christ's fleshly death.

Blood v urine. I don't know. It's both pretty awful to me.

159 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:42:26pm

re: #156 Obdicut

So do you think stupid-Koran-burning-preacher will be beheaded inside a year?

His next gig in in Dearborn and his security detail just bailed.

160 jaunte  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:42:35pm

re: #158 marjoriemoon

Cheese probably seemed a little too opaque.

161 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:42:37pm

re: #120 APox

If the worst these people do is slash a painting depicting their deity in piss then I consider even the most extreme to be pretty docile.

I'd wager if someone were to make a 'Piss Muhammad' piece of artwork the artist would be beheaded inside of a year.

Hey, there's this guy named Salman Rushdie, wrote the Satanic Verses


I hear he's still got a noggin, friend


maybe you oughta google him

162 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:42:41pm

re: #156 Obdicut

So do you think stupid-Koran-burning-preacher will be beheaded inside a year?

All I'm hoping for is a shave.

163 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:42:56pm

Here's how a new thinking artist gets treated.
I'm not a fan, or an un-fan. I think what he creates is art.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

164 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:43:04pm

re: #161 WindUpBird

of course, they did declare a fatwa on him, there was that

165 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:43:04pm

re: #149 marjoriemoon

Well... I don't know. Strong enough not to damage the painting I think you mean.

I may think if someone wants to hang the Piss Christ in a gallery, I don't have to see it if it offends me. But let's say they made anti-Semitic caricatures and hung them in a gallery. Jews eating Muslim babies or wearing swastikas. I'm not the kind of person to run in and rip them off the wall, but if someone did, I wouldn't be unhappy. Maybe I should, but I wouldn't.

I don't know what that makes me.

Well in that case I would say it's different since it goes beyond religious symbolism and enters a realm of violence against a people. This would be as opposed to something like "Piss Torah" and left it at that -- if someone ever created such a thing.

166 APox  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:43:11pm

re: #156 Obdicut

So do you think stupid-Koran-burning-preacher will be beheaded inside a year?

Well, they did kill 7 and behead 2 already. Let's put him in Afghanistan and see. :)

167 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:43:18pm

re: #159 Decatur Deb

His next gig in in Dearborn and his security detail just bailed.

Yeah. I'm honestly worried that something is going to happen, if there isn't sufficient police protection. I hope the Muslims in Dearborn are organizing to help prevent any violence.

168 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:43:36pm

Perhaps they should have simply passed the exhibit over.

.
.
.

169 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:44:17pm

Next someone has to make Santorum art.re: #165 Gus 802

Meh. "Piss Torah" would be a more or less equivalent thing to Piss Christ, imo.

170 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:44:22pm

re: #163 Floral Giraffe

I know his BMW art car well


I like lichtenstein's more tho


Koons is talented as hell, buuuut I dunno. Not my scene. Not enough there for me

171 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:44:23pm

re: #132 Charles

Human secretions are deeply connected to human emotions.

They are also missing the point. Humours (bodily fluids) is a medieval concept rooted in early medicine and Christianity.
eucharistic humors
People even tried to live off their own excretions to proved the theory that taking communion alone could sustain human life. Nobody made it past a few weeks.

172 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:44:42pm

Welcome to the Colosseum.

/

173 APox  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:44:48pm

re: #161 WindUpBird

Hey, there's this guy named Salman Rushdie, wrote the Satanic Verses

I hear he's still got a noggin, friend

maybe you oughta google him

Not for a lack of trying.

Anyways, my point wasn't to get into some bashing thread. I just don't see them as completely equal on the extremist side, I'm sure we can differ on that. Again... I didn't say this wasn't wrong.

174 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:44:52pm

re: #161 WindUpBird

Hey, there's this guy named Salman Rushdie, wrote the Satanic Verses

I hear he's still got a noggin, friend

maybe you oughta google him

Um, they really did try to kill Rushdie. A number of people related to the book really were attacked.

So not actually a good reference.

175 jaunte  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:44:52pm

Related Thomas Kincaid story:

And then there is Kinkade's proclivity for "ritual territory marking," as he called it, which allegedly manifested itself in the late 1990s outside the Disneyland Hotel in Anaheim.

"This one's for you, Walt," the artist quipped late one night as he urinated on a Winnie the Pooh figure, said Terry Sheppard, a former vice president for Kinkade's company, in an interview.
[Link: www.pierretristam.com...]

176 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:45:02pm

re: #131 Naso Tang

Are you suggesting religion is intrinsically valueless?

:=)

Are you suggesting the symbol is equivalent to the religion? Is a statue of Jesus actually Jesus? Is a photo of that statue actually Jesus?

Is the memory of that photo actually Jesus?

177 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:45:15pm

re: #169 Fozzie Bear

Next someone has to make Santorum art.

Meh. "Piss Torah" would be a more or less equivalent thing to Piss Christ, imo.


I think dan Savage did that already :D

178 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:46:07pm

re: #170 WindUpBird
Personally, I prefer Calder.
But, Koons is an artist too.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

179 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:46:33pm

Art is whatever.

180 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:47:04pm

If I were to construct a famous piece of art satirizing Islam, I'd be much more likely to be assassinated or attacked for it, than if I created one satirizing Christianity. The artist wasn't attacked here. The art was.

181 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:47:07pm

re: #179 Charles

Art is whatever.

It's art!

182 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:47:47pm

If you don't want to call it "art," don't.

183 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:47:59pm

re: #172 Gus 802

Welcome to the Colosseum.

/

In the Colosseum


Now it's raining and it's pouring
On the pillaging and goring
The constable is swinging
>From the chains
For the dead there is no story
No memory no blame
Their families shout blue murder
But tomorrow it's the same
In the colosseum
184 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:48:05pm

re: #173 APox

Not for a lack of trying.

Anyways, my point wasn't to get into some bashing thread. I just don't see them as completely equal on the extremist side, I'm sure we can differ on that. Again... I didn't say this wasn't wrong.

There's this phenomenon of "well, Muslims are worse because they'd..." I hear a lot

and it's like a meme.

And this meme bores me


Nothing is equal anywhere. First world countries have citizens with college degrees and new Subarus and big houses and credit cards and swank apartments and nice thai places down the street and iphones and who are not as easily riled up as say...

...uneducated and scared and powerless people under dictatorships and theocracies.


Not a level playing field.

185 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:48:22pm

re: #158 marjoriemoon

From your Guardian article, there was another one here that made this point.

Blood v urine. I don't know. It's both pretty awful to me.

Crucifixion was intended to be bloody and brutal. It's aim was to terrify onlookers with this message: "This is the fate for those who spark the anger of Rome. Avoid it." Of course, by attacking that art gallery, those four 'youts' were acting more according to the tactics of the legionaries who crucified Jesus than those of Jesus himself. But of courses if that thought enter their heads, said heads would promptly explode.

186 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:48:27pm

Maddow's talking about this now. I didn't know they were projected that mural in Maine on the building. :D

187 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:48:43pm

But I might.

188 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:48:52pm

re: #182 Charles

If you don't want to call it "art," don't.

Just for fun, if you don't want to call it "art", what do you call it?
Creativity?

189 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:49:22pm

Go to the worst section of detroit and say BLACK PEOPLE ARE DISGUSTING

I'M RICH AND I LIVE IN A NICE HOUSE IN THE SUBURBS, WHAT'S THEIR FUCKING PROBLEM

that's what that whole muslims-are-worse meme is to me

it's just dumb

190 sagehen  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:50:03pm

re: #161 WindUpBird

Hey, there's this guy named Salman Rushdie, wrote the Satanic Verses

I hear he's still got a noggin, friend

maybe you oughta google him

Bad example -- he went into hiding for awhile, he needed round-the-clock security for years...

191 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:50:39pm

"The test of the artist does not lie in the will with which he goes to work, but in the excellence of the work he produces."

--Dumb Ox

192 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:51:04pm

re: #188 Floral Giraffe

Just for fun, if you don't want to call it "art", what do you call it?
Creativity?

depends what *it* is...


if you're Kincaid, it's business.

If you're me, doodling art for friends? it's pleasant fun. Like sitting in your room noodling on the bass.

if you're the band Converge? it's pure rage. (they are so heavy and noisy I cannot listen to them)

193 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:51:06pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

They are also missing the point. Humours (bodily fluids) is a medieval concept rooted in early medicine and Christianity.
eucharistic humors
People even tried to live off their own excretions to proved the theory that taking communion alone could sustain human life. Nobody made it past a few weeks.

Hey, Killgore. Just to let you know, your "email Stalker' post yesterday had the normal effect: The 'fan club' went into a 100 post hate spew. Those morons are so predictable.

[waves to the Stalkers]

194 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:51:11pm

re: #165 Gus 802

Well in that case I would say it's different since it goes beyond religious symbolism and enters a realm of violence against a people. This would be as opposed to something like "Piss Torah" and left it at that -- if someone ever created such a thing.

I think the Piss Christ hits home on a couple levels. It's the urine, but also because of the death itself and if you'd imagine someone actually hung on a cross (100s, 1000s?, of people were killed that way at the time) there would be a lot of bodily fluids. The urine is a statement.

What I would do in the case of anti-Semitic stuff would be to write the paper or gallery and tell them I disapproved. That's my right. Of course, that would be in the U.S. if something like that happened.

I'm not sure tho that my offensive is felt any deeper than someone else's.

195 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:51:36pm
196 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:51:41pm

re: #189 WindUpBird

Well, radical Islam has more actual violent and radical outputs than radical Christianity. And more is important. Four people associated with the Satanic Verses were attacked, one of them killed. That shit ain't good. Radical US Christians may slimly insinuate that Obama should die, but there was an actual call for someone to kill Rushdie. That's a big difference.

However, if I were to become an abortion doctor in the US, specializing in late-term abortions, and practice in the Midwest, I'd be rather nervous about my survival as well.

197 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:51:50pm

re: #143 McSpiff

I really just thought it was his point-No intent to put words in his mouth at all. More my expression of the meaning I got from his posts. He sees great value in this art piece. I do not.

198 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:52:21pm

re: #190 sagehen

Bad example -- he went into hiding for awhile, he needed round-the-clock security for years...

haha I know, it's just the sort of "he'll be beheaded in a year" authoratitive finality to it I rolled my eyes at :D

But yeah, they totally wanted that guy dead!


We don't kill artists in America. We kill doctors :) Art isn't dangerous in America to fundies. Planned Parenthood is.

199 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:53:06pm

Beauty Quotes
'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,' - that is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.
John Keats

A thing of beauty is a joy forever: its loveliness increases; it will never pass into nothingness.
John Keats

200 McSpiff  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:53:14pm

re: #198 WindUpBird

haha I know, it's just the sort of "he'll be beheaded in a year" authoratitive finality to it I rolled my eyes at :D

But yeah, they totally wanted that guy dead!

We don't kill artists in America. We kill doctors :) Art isn't dangerous in America to fundies. Planned Parenthood is.

Every fundie needs a boogie man, be it abortion or piss christ

201 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:53:21pm

re: #179 Charles

Art is whatever.


It used to be better than that.

There is still beauty however.

202 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:53:36pm

re: #193 Dark_Falcon

They're not beautiful, or art!

203 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:54:33pm

re: #201 Ojoe

It used to be better than that.

There is still beauty however.

I disagree. It was always like it is now.

204 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:54:41pm

re: #198 WindUpBird

haha I know, it's just the sort of "he'll be beheaded in a year" authoratitive finality to it I rolled my eyes at :D

But yeah, they totally wanted that guy dead!

We don't kill artists in America. We kill doctors :) Art isn't dangerous in America to fundies. Planned Parenthood is.

Warhol never recovered from the gunshot wound.

[Link: www.google.com...]

205 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:54:50pm

re: #176 b_sharp

Are you suggesting the symbol is equivalent to the religion? Is a statue of Jesus actually Jesus? Is a photo of that statue actually Jesus?

Is the memory of that photo actually Jesus?

Is wine the blood of Christ? Is a communion wafer the body of Christ?

206 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:54:58pm

Ah, it's time for me to tell the story again.

Friend takes kids, 10 & 12 to some mission here in CA. The son, age 10, in the middle of a large group on the tour says (of course really loud) who's that guy all stabbed and bleeding up there?

Yes, she died. She's also a Mexican American lapsed Catholic.

HA

207 McSpiff  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:55:05pm

re: #201 Ojoe

It used to be better than that.

There is still beauty however.

or at least the Historian's basis gives you the rosy glasses to think so.

208 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:55:16pm

re: #202 Floral Giraffe

They're not beautiful, or art!

No, but sometimes its fun to watch a hater in frenzy. It's so pathetic its actually funny.

209 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:55:29pm

Religious symbol soaked in urine? Meh. The "Reverend" Terry Jones wouldn't piss on a Koran if it was on fire.

210 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:55:31pm

re: #185 Dark_Falcon

Crucifixion was intended to be bloody and brutal. It's aim was to terrify onlookers with this message: "This is the fate for those who spark the anger of Rome. Avoid it." Of course, by attacking that art gallery, those four 'youts' were acting more according to the tactics of the legionaries who crucified Jesus than those of Jesus himself. But of courses if that thought enter their heads, said heads would promptly explode.

Right, but he didn't use blood. Jesus is depicted as bloodied on the cross. Urine, as excrement, is a statement. The fact that the picture is "beautiful" in color, if you didn't know it was urine, you'd think it was paint, is also part of the artist's statement.

211 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:55:44pm

re: #200 McSpiff

Are you framing this as if only a fundamentalist would object to this art? I would strongly disagree with that. Especially if we all have the interpretive freedom artists are given.

212 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:55:57pm

re: #196 Obdicut

Well, radical Islam has more actual violent and radical outputs than radical Christianity. And more is important. Four people associated with the Satanic Verses were attacked, one of them killed. That shit ain't good. Radical US Christians may slimly insinuate that Obama should die, but there was an actual call for someone to kill Rushdie. That's a big difference.

However, if I were to become an abortion doctor in the US, specializing in late-term abortions, and practice in the Midwest, I'd be rather nervous about my survival as well.

jinx!

But yeah, I guess my point is, comparing our enlightened country with its money and tech and power and a constitution deisgned from the ground up to at least attempt to keep things rigight, and so on, to much less enlightened and much more oppressed cultures

and then refusing to acknowledge that people living hard scrabble lives with 60% unemployment under horrid regimes

that they should behave in exactly the same way as Yukon-driving middle manager buzzcut getting his latte at Starbucks, I can't do it

213 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:57:04pm

re: #198 WindUpBird

haha I know, it's just the sort of "he'll be beheaded in a year" authoratitive finality to it I rolled my eyes at :D

But yeah, they totally wanted that guy dead!

We don't kill artists in America. We kill doctors :) Art isn't dangerous in America to fundies. Planned Parenthood is.

What if you did a painting of an abortion doctor looking heroic as he pulls a malformed already deceased fetus from a woman's stomach that otherwise would have torn her in half if she had tried to give birth to it naturally?

214 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:57:05pm

re: #205 Naso Tang

Is wine the blood of Christ? Is a communion wafer the body of Christ?

A different answer used to come automatically.

215 McSpiff  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:57:13pm

re: #211 Rightwingconspirator

Are you framing this as if only a fundamentalist would object to this art? I would strongly disagree with that. Especially if we all have the interpretive freedom artists are given.

I wouldn't describe what happened here as any more of an "objection" than shooting an abortion doctor.

216 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:57:58pm

re: #203 Charles

I think if you go back 6 to 8 hundred years it is different.

217 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:57:58pm

Is this one next, now that the Christians have finally learned something from Muslims?//

Dung-Covered Madonna Sparks Controversy

218 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:58:04pm

re: #201 Ojoe

It used to be better than that.

There is still beauty however.

No it did not.


In the renaissance, art was power. Power like organized crime power. it wasn't "better" at all.

Art now is better than art ever has been. for artists. because it's not a king or a pope or a queen or a duke or a bishop or a whatever that's calling the shots.


I call the shots, from my dingy apartment in SE. I don't need a bishop, or a patron. Unless I want one!

You want real beauty? Come to our indie comics festival. We're the real artists.

219 samgak  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:58:42pm

re: #79 Gus 802

Well if we're going to use a left-wing/right-wing model here than how can a right-wing person say it's OK to desecrate the Koran as an act of religious and/or political liberty yet at the same time say it's NOT OK to desecrate the Crucifix?


Well, obviously they can't.

A couple of things though: the religious-right-wing anger at and reaction to artwork such as Piss Christ is pretty tame compared to Muslim anger at Koran desecrations and Mohammed cartoons. The right-wing isn't killing anyone over Piss Christ, Virgin in a Condom or any of these other red-rag-to-a-bull artworks.

Secondly, these artworks are designed to rile up religious conservatives and get them to respond. These artists love when this kind of vandalism happens because it shows how "subversive" and "edgy" they are. You could almost say that the outrage and vandalism is part of the artwork, viewing the whole performance/installation as a whole. I know when Virgin in a Condom was displayed in Wellington they had about 5 copies of it on hand, so that when one was smashed/removed etc they could put another one up in a couple of minutes. So I'm not going to get all upset about it.

220 McSpiff  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:58:46pm

re: #216 Ojoe

I think if you go back 6 to 8 hundred years it is different.

That's like saying if you go back a few hundred years all houses were stone. Much of art is simply lost to time.

221 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:58:47pm

re: #216 Ojoe

I think if you go back 6 to 8 hundred years it is different.

I'd love to go back to when oil paints could only be afforded by rich people! And the powerful just supressed everything!

Give me a break. Those people are dead. it's over.

222 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:58:52pm

re: #217 Naso Tang

Is this one next, now that the Christians have finally learned something from Muslims?//

Dung-Covered Madonna Sparks Controversy

Oh. THAT Madonna.

223 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:59:07pm

re: #220 McSpiff

That's like saying if you go back a few hundred years all houses were stone. Much of art is simply lost to time.

But the internet!


The internet remembers ^^

224 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:59:18pm

re: #222 Gus 802

Oh. THAT Madonna.

I prefer pony madonna *_*

225 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:59:24pm

re: #216 Ojoe

I think if you go back 6 to 8 hundred years it is different.

How? If you go back to 1444 you've got people being shocked that Donatello is portraying Christ as emaciated and agonized, and semitic, rather than beatific and white.

226 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:59:32pm

re: #213 jamesfirecat

What if you did a painting of an abortion doctor looking heroic as he pulls a malformed already deceased fetus from a woman's stomach that otherwise would have torn her in half if she had tried to give birth to it naturally?

I really don't want to see what you have hanging on the walls in your den :p

227 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 6:59:33pm

re: #216 Ojoe

I think if you go back 6 to 8 hundred years it is different.

Sure ... because they used to kill people like Andres Serrano back then.

228 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:00:55pm

re: #227 Charles

Also Caravaggio

229 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:00:58pm

re: #214 Decatur Deb

A different answer used to come automatically.

No???

230 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:01:22pm

re: #203 Charles

I disagree. It was always like it is now.

I think it's far better now!


I didn't feel like I had a reliable outlet for my work 15 years ago when I was in school, I sorta felt like I had to Get A Real Job, and I did


Now, art's the job! Now i can make my own books with the printer sitting next to me. i can make my own prints for a buck by hitting a button and using my good paper. I couldn't do that 15 years ago.

231 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:01:59pm

I think it's like what you feed your brain is what your mind becomes.
There is SO MUCH hate around, you need to take a beauty break, now and then. Ladybug crawlers are out & about here. They're so ugly, but the metamorphose into Ladybugs!

232 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:02:41pm

re: #225 Obdicut

How? If you go back to 1444 you've got people being shocked that Donatello is portraying Christ as emaciated and agonized, and semitic, rather than beatific and white.

Fuck me, how about Manet? Manet's naked lady at the picnic, that got people AAAANGRY

And that warnt no 600 years ago, that werent but a piece ago

233 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:03:31pm

re: #225 Obdicut

How? If you go back to 1444 you've got people being shocked that Donatello is portraying Christ as emaciated and agonized, and semitic, rather than beatific and white.

Donatello went through some changes from when he did this:

Image: Donatello_David.jpg


to when he did this:

[Link: www.artchive.com...]

234 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:03:50pm

re: #231 Floral Giraffe

I think it's like what you feed your brain is what your mind becomes.
There is SO MUCH hate around, you need to take a beauty break, now and then. Ladybug crawlers are out & about here. They're so ugly, but the metamorphose into Ladybugs!

I fed my kid mind 80's cartoons, blue oyster cult records, Elric novels, and Metroid

And I guess that's what is coming out now

235 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:04:27pm

re: #168 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That was freakin' hysterical, btw.

236 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:04:29pm

The Watts towers.
Created from bits of refuse.
Nearly torn down, now considered a thing of beauty!
[Link: www.wattstowers.us...]

237 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:04:35pm

re: #219 samgak

Well, obviously they can't.

A couple of things though: the religious-right-wing anger at and reaction to artwork such as Piss Christ is pretty tame compared to Muslim anger at Koran desecrations and Mohammed cartoons. The right-wing isn't killing anyone over Piss Christ, Virgin in a Condom or any of these other red-rag-to-a-bull artworks.

Secondly, these artworks are designed to rile up religious conservatives and get them to respond. These artists love when this kind of vandalism happens because it shows how "subversive" and "edgy" they are. You could almost say that the outrage and vandalism is part of the artwork, viewing the whole performance/installation as a whole. I know when Virgin in a Condom was displayed in Wellington they had about 5 copies of it on hand, so that when one was smashed/removed etc they could put another one up in a couple of minutes. So I'm not going to get all upset about it.

So let me ask you then. Is this all we're ever going to do every time these things happen? "Oh well you think this is bad imagine if it had been Muslims and Islam!" All roads lead to Islam? Again?

238 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:04:46pm

Now they symbolically kill Serrano by destroying his art.

And threaten very real people with weapons in the process. What if a guard challenged them? Would they have injured or killed to do what they did?

The answer has to be yes. You don't invade the public space of a controversial artwork like this to destroy it, without being prepared to kill.

239 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:05:00pm

re: #231 Floral Giraffe

I think it's like what you feed your brain is what your mind becomes.
There is SO MUCH hate around, you need to take a beauty break, now and then. Ladybug crawlers are out & about here. They're so ugly, but the metamorphose into Ladybugs!

But that's art... the expression of pain, hate, anger. I'd rather someone paint it than DO it.

Personally, I'm with you. I most like art that invokes bliss, love, tranquility. My favorite, other than the impressionists, is Chagall. I also like landscapes :p

240 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:05:04pm

re: #230 WindUpBird


Now, art's the job! Now i can make my own books with the printer sitting next to me. i can make my own prints for a buck by hitting a button and using my good paper. I couldn't do that 15 years ago.

But now you have competition that was unimaginable then.

241 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:05:14pm
242 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:05:56pm

re: #238 Charles

True that.

243 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:07:34pm

re: #238 Charles

Now they symbolically kill Serrano by destroying his art.

And threaten very real people with weapons in the process. What if a guard challenged them? Would they have injured or killed to do what they did?

The answer has to be yes. You don't invade the public space of a controversial artwork like this to destroy it, without being prepared to kill.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. Being prepared to kill is a whole other level of escalation.

244 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:08:01pm

re: #231 Floral Giraffe

I think it's like what you feed your brain is what your mind becomes.
There is SO MUCH hate around, you need to take a beauty break, now and then. Ladybug crawlers are out & about here. They're so ugly, but the metamorphose into Ladybugs!

Most of my music I like can basically be described as intricate and beautiful anger. At least to me.

heavy metal albums about the suicide of the drummer's sister, and the beating-into-a-coma-almost-to-death of the guitarist, that comes to mind


That's art. Sometimes the beauty comes because of the pain. In my opinion, the only real beauty comes with lots of pain and anger. LOTS of pain and anger.

245 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:08:54pm

re: #238 Charles

It's very sad, that people, who disagree, are prepared to invade the public space of a controversial artwork like this to destroy it, and prepared to kill.

Very sad. I don't have any other words.

246 jaunte  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:09:04pm

Magritte: "Ceci ne pas une pipe."
This is not Christ.
This may not even be urine.

247 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:09:06pm

re: #233 Decatur Deb


He is my favorite Renaissance artist, bar none, for exactly that reason. He really seemed to have transformed as an artist.

248 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:09:10pm

re: #243 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to respectfully disagree. Being prepared to kill is a whole other level of escalation.

if I walked into a bank my friends, all armed with big hammers? and started slamming on the glass?


Hm?


How about if I walked into the Chicago GOP headquarters with a couple hammers?

249 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:09:28pm

re: #241 Ojoe

Mategna's Christo Scorto

I dislike religious art. A lot. craven, ewe and flat out weird.

250 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:09:38pm

re: #248 WindUpBird

I would come to the conclusion that I was EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!

251 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:09:53pm

re: #243 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to respectfully disagree. Being prepared to kill is a whole other level of escalation.

True. But you don't have to intend to kill to kill someone, either. If you hit someone with a hammer, they can wind up dead pretty easy.

252 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:09:56pm

re: #244 WindUpBird

But the joy of art, is that we each get to define our own.
Based on your posts here, I would define you as an artist.

253 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:10:45pm

re: #247 Obdicut

He is my favorite Renaissance artist, bar none, for exactly that reason. He really seemed to have transformed as an artist.

Saw them on the same day--kind of a jolt.

254 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:10:46pm

re: #249 Stanley Sea

I dislike religious art. A lot. craven, ewe and flat out weird.

All of it? :D Paul Laffoley is one of my favorite religious artists: Image: dimensionality-large2.jpg


Religious. Not Christian :D

255 samgak  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:11:16pm

re: #65 Obdicut

Can you name one of these left-liberals?


Burning a Koran will get you jail time in the UK for inciting racial hatred or a similar charge.

Name any member of the UK Labour government which passed the law as your "left-liberal" example.

Calls to ban Koran burning etc were quite common on left-liberal dominated websites during the Terry Jones bunfight. Not all left-liberals advocate this, obviously, but there is a significant number of hypocrites who do, and who yet will defend the right to offend Christians in a similar manner.

256 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:11:22pm

let';s get one thing clear

Anyone shows up at a gallery of my work with their friends armed with hammers?

I pull out a gun and aim it at them.

257 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:11:42pm

re: #256 WindUpBird

let';s get one thing clear

Anyone shows up at a gallery of my work with their friends armed with hammers?

I pull out a gun and aim it at them.

and if they get closer? I shoot them to death, and I smile.

258 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:11:42pm

re: #251 Obdicut

True. But you don't have to intend to kill to kill someone, either. If you hit someone with a hammer, they can wind up dead pretty easy.

That's true.

259 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:12:25pm

re: #215 McSpiff

That was not my question. When I typed "object" I meant object, not destroy.

260 jaunte  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:12:33pm

re: #256 WindUpBird

If they bring a picture of a hammer, you bring a picture of a gun.
It's the Chicago way.

261 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:12:49pm

re: #234 WindUpBird

I fed my kid mind 80's cartoons, blue oyster cult records, Elric novels, and Metroid

And I guess that's what is coming out now

Elric of Melniboné?

262 Kruk  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:12:56pm

re: #206 Stanley Sea

Ah, it's time for me to tell the story again.

Friend takes kids, 10 & 12 to some mission here in CA. The son, age 10, in the middle of a large group on the tour says (of course really loud) who's that guy all stabbed and bleeding up there?

Yes, she died. She's also a Mexican American lapsed Catholic.

HA

Heh. Kids are cute precisely because they don't know how to self censor. I was on a flight a few years back, seated a couple of rows behind the wing. In the row in front of me was a mother with her child. The plane comes in to land, and the pilot deploys the flaps and spoilers and whatnot.

Kid points out the window, and says very excitedly "Mummy, Mummy! The wing's breaking!"

Everyone's head whips around (including the cabin crew), and Mum looks like she wishes the seat would swallow her whole.

263 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:12:58pm

You know what my favorite piece of art, I ever got to see was?
Some of Monet's Waterlily paintings.
They were easily 50 feet long and 20 feet tall.
I had no idea.
Twas awesome.

264 McSpiff  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:13:02pm

re: #256 WindUpBird

let';s get one thing clear

Anyone shows up at a gallery of my work with their friends armed with hammers?

I pull out a gun and aim it at them.

Show up at any work place and threatened people with hammers and i imagine you'd get a similar reaction...

Hell, if it was a bank no one question that reaction.

265 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:13:14pm

re: #256 WindUpBird


I'm not the guy who tries to offend. if I've spent a yeat of my life on a painting and some fundie wants to fuck with it?


There are no words for what I am capable of. No words :)

266 McSpiff  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:13:33pm

re: #259 Rightwingconspirator

That was not my question. When I typed "object" I meant object, not destroy.

Then we're talking about two totally different things.

267 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:13:35pm

re: #257 WindUpBird

and if they get closer? I shoot them to death, and I smile.

You are now edging close to the Internet Tough Guy horizon.

268 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:13:44pm

re: #260 jaunte

If they bring a picture of a hammer, you bring a picture of a gun.
It's the Chicago way.

I love you so much


catches baby carriage

269 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:13:49pm

re: #249 Stanley Sea

That one is especially weird.

But Della Robbia's Madonnas are very not weird.

Mother love

270 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:14:05pm

re: #260 jaunte

If they bring a picture of a hammer, you bring a picture of a gun.
It's the Chicago way.

Serrano's next work must be a photo of him dropping a deuce on a mallet.

271 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:16:00pm

re: #255 samgak

Burning a Koran will get you jail time in the UK for inciting racial hatred or a similar charge.

Name any member of the UK Labour government which passed the law as your "left-liberal" example.

Calls to ban Koran burning etc were quite common on left-liberal dominated websites during the Terry Jones bunfight. Not all left-liberals advocate this, obviously, but there is a significant number of hypocrites who do, and who yet will defend the right to offend Christians in a similar manner.

Is the Vatican a left-liberal organization?

272 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:16:05pm

re: #254 WindUpBird

All of it? :D Paul Laffoley is one of my favorite religious artists: Image: dimensionality-large2.jpg

Religious. Not Christian :D

Oh that I like. It's more the dead bodies being beautified etc. Craven.

273 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:16:25pm

re: #249 Stanley Sea

I dislike religious art. A lot. craven, ewe and flat out weird.

Have you ever seen Rubens? I've seen a few of these up close in NY a very long time ago. They are nothing short of amazing up close. Huge. They each take up a wall.

274 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:16:41pm

re: #271 Gus 802

Is the Vatican a left-liberal organization?

///Considering they believe in evolution, YES!

275 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:16:58pm

re: #257 WindUpBird

and if they get closer? I shoot them to death, and I smile.

The problem with that, WUB, is that in the case of those in the US who would do that, if they knew you had a gun they'd come to your gallery with AR-15s instead of hammers. In which case you'd get the choice of either standing aside or being the guy who brought a pistol to a rifle fight.

276 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:17:22pm

re: #267 Obdicut

You are now edging close to the Internet Tough Guy horizon.

I know :)


The point is that a (hypothetical) gallery of original work that I've agonized over and put my self into? Is more important than my car, my computer, my belongings, or anything except my partner and my cats

And the other point is that if a bunch of thugs showed up with large hammers at my gallery, at my home, at my church, at a restaurant I owned?

I assume that they may in fact be there to beat me to death with thosae big hammers. I'm a small guy, with no fighting skills. And I either run and let my life's work be ruined, or I'd fight. I'd probably be mad enough to fight!

None of this would ever happen, because they'd have to smash the whole internet. ;-)

277 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:17:24pm

re: #255 samgak

Burning a Koran will get you jail time in the UK for inciting racial hatred or a similar charge.

Name any member of the UK Labour government which passed the law as your "left-liberal" example.

Calls to ban Koran burning etc were quite common on left-liberal dominated websites during the Terry Jones bunfight. Not all left-liberals advocate this, obviously, but there is a significant number of hypocrites who do, and who yet will defend the right to offend Christians in a similar manner.

Is the Mormon church a left-liberal organization?

278 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:17:43pm

I have always like Titian.

"Flora" is very beautiful.

279 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:18:03pm

re: #244 WindUpBird


That's art. Sometimes the beauty comes because of the pain. In my opinion, the only real beauty comes with lots of pain and anger. LOTS of pain and anger.

I'm not going to comment on the beauty part, but if you want the other stuff try this, and then imagine that somebody stuck a label of Madonna, Christ, Mohammed, Moroni, Buddha or whoever on any body shown....

hieronymus bosch garden of earthly delights

280 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:18:11pm

re: #275 Dark_Falcon

The problem with that, WUB, is that in the case of those in the US who would do that, if they knew you had a gun they'd come to your gallery with AR-15s instead of hammers. In which case you'd get the choice of either standing aside or being the guy who brought a pistol to a rifle fight.

If they do that Dark then you've just disproven your own statements about how they didn't come to the gallery with the intent to kill....

281 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:18:11pm

re: #266 McSpiff

I thought I posted that obscurity was my preferred fate for the art piece we are talking about. Yup, that would be my #35

282 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:18:42pm

re: #275 Dark_Falcon

The problem with that, WUB, is that in the case of those in the US who would do that, if they knew you had a gun they'd come to your gallery with AR-15s instead of hammers. In which case you'd get the choice of either standing aside or being the guy who brought a pistol to a rifle fight.

Well, that's why I'm on the internet. Can't blow me up! The internet can't be shot.

You have COMPLETELY missed my point, which was to defeat your point that people with deadly weapons destroying priceless works aren't concerning.

283 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:18:54pm

re: #256 WindUpBird

let';s get one thing clear

Anyone shows up at a gallery of my work with their friends armed with hammers?

I pull out a gun and aim it at them.

Someone damaged this with a hammer. The Swiss Guard let him live. (Of course, it was created by a better hammerer.)

Image: tumblr_lilfdqUXnY1qzdgszo1_500.jpg

284 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:19:03pm

re: #263 Floral Giraffe

You know what my favorite piece of art, I ever got to see was?
Some of Monet's Waterlily paintings.
They were easily 50 feet long and 20 feet tall.
I had no idea.
Twas awesome.

I saw them, and Obdi, you had better have seen them by now at MOMA.

Beyond belief. Oh I died. Another experience that really really stuck with me? American Gothic in Chicago. American Gothic!

285 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:19:06pm

re: #279 Naso Tang

I'm not going to comment on the beauty part, but if you want the other stuff try this, and then imagine that somebody stuck a label of Madonna, Christ, Mohammed, Moroni, Buddha or whoever on any body shown...

hieronymus bosch garden of earthly delights

Bosch is one of my absolute favorite artists of this world

286 McSpiff  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:19:47pm

re: #281 Rightwingconspirator

I thought I posted that obscurity was my preferred fate for the art piece we are talking about. Yup, that would be my #35

I have no idea what point you're trying to make with me, or what point of mine you seem to think you're arguing against. But you're a tilting at windmills right now.

287 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:19:54pm

re: #283 Decatur Deb

Someone damaged this with a hammer. The Swiss Guard let him live. (Of course, it was created by a better hammerer.)

Image: tumblr_lilfdqUXnY1qzdgszo1_500.jpg

Swiss guard are pros!


I'm a caffienated dork who just wants to be left alone to paint, who's been gaybashed a few times.

289 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:21:16pm

re: #284 Stanley Sea

I saw them years ago.

290 McSpiff  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:21:23pm

re: #287 WindUpBird

Swiss guard are pros!

I'm a caffienated dork who just wants to be left alone to paint, who's been gaybashed a few times.

Deadly force is appriopriate anytime someone choices to actively threaten your life. Pulling out a hammer and charging certainly meets that requirement for me.

291 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:21:29pm

re: #280 jamesfirecat

If they do that Dark then you've just disproven your own statements about how they didn't come to the gallery with the intent to kill...

EXACTLY
EXACTLY
EXACTLY
EXACTLY
EXACTLY

292 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:21:30pm

re: #287 WindUpBird

& to think that the renaissance artists worked without caffeine.

293 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:22:30pm

re: #292 Ojoe

& to think that the renaissance artists worked without caffeine.

They had booze. Mucho mas superior.

294 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:22:35pm

re: #285 WindUpBird

Bosch is one of my absolute favorite artists of this world

I keep thinking I would not want to meet him alone in the dark.

295 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:22:39pm

re: #282 WindUpBird

Well, that's why I'm on the internet. Can't blow me up! The internet can't be shot.

You have COMPLETELY missed my point, which was to defeat your point that people with deadly weapons destroying priceless works aren't concerning.

That wasn't my point. My point was that they might not be prepared to kill. That's the good news about having a gun: It'll deter anyone who isn't prepared to kill, and a good number of those who would be willing to kill if the perceived risk is low. The bad news is that if someone still comes after you knowing you've got a gun, they're likely to come heavy.

296 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:22:43pm

re: #287 WindUpBird

Swiss guard are pros!

I'm a caffienated dork who just wants to be left alone to paint, who's been gaybashed a few times.

Not here I hope.

297 theheat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:22:52pm

Well, this ought to make God happy. Everyone knows how a piece of trashy art can wound a supernatural superpower. The Piss Christ might as well have been kryptonite! danger! danger!
//

How many people get up in arms over there whenever the Vatican covers up sexual abuse compared to a piece of overrated art? Just want to put things in perspective.

298 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:22:52pm

re: #292 Ojoe

Psst, they had coke & other drugs.

299 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:23:04pm

re: #257 WindUpBird

and if they get closer? I shoot them to death, and I smile.

Zoe Washburne: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

Reverend Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

300 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:23:11pm

re: #290 McSpiff

Deadly force is appriopriate anytime someone choices to actively threaten your life. Pulling out a hammer and charging certainly meets that requirement for me.

It does in the yes of the law in the US, as well.

301 McSpiff  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:23:52pm

re: #292 Ojoe

& to think that the renaissance artists worked without caffeine.

Uhh, when do you think coffee was introduced to Italy?

302 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:23:57pm

BBL

303 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:24:13pm

re: #290 McSpiff

Deadly force is appriopriate anytime someone choices to actively threaten your life. Pulling out a hammer and charging certainly meets that requirement for me.

yeah!


it'll never happen to me, my work is not controversial in any sense, it's just playful and psychedelic, and if I were ever to exhibit art in a "real" gallery, it's be paintings or sculptures.

But I just imagine everything I've ever loved in my work, and then I imagine some crazies with weapons invading, and what else do you do?

304 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:24:17pm

re: #298 Floral Giraffe

Psst, they had coke & other drugs.

And highly toxic heavy-metals in their paints.

305 wee fury  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:24:19pm

Vocal art

306 samgak  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:25:20pm

re: #237 Gus 802

So let me ask you then. Is this all we're ever going to do every time these things happen? "Oh well you think this is bad imagine if it had been Muslims and Islam!" All roads lead to Islam? Again?


Well for sure, there's certainly nothing original in the Islam comparison. But the reason the argument has become such a cliche is because it has substance. As long as the double-standard exists people will point it out. Boring huh?

If someone insults Islam, a certain number of Muslims will get violent, and a bunch of talking heads will fret about how we're not doing enough to be sensitive to them. If someone insults Christianity, Christians mostly whine about it on talk radio or make the occasional clumsy "direct action" protest like this one, and no one cares. As a result, people tippee-toe around Muslims with exaggerated deference and treat Christians as if they may be freely mocked. This is dangerous because some Christians are going to come to believe that if they want the deference afforded Islam, they need to act like Muslims when offended.

307 McSpiff  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:25:39pm

re: #300 Dark_Falcon

It does in the yes of the law in the US, as well.

Self-defense laws in the US generally make sense to me. Thank God they weren't written like the tax code...

308 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:26:23pm

Oh boy.

309 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:26:49pm

re: #306 samgak

Way to shift the blame from the perps to the victim.
9_9

310 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:26:55pm

re: #306 samgak

If someone insults Christianity, Christians mostly whine about it on talk radio or make the occasional clumsy "direct action" protest like this one, and no one cares.

What are you talking about? Every goddamn year there's the 'war on Christmas' meme which is total bullshit.

You're also comparing how Christians in this country act to how Muslims in the Mid-East react.

Why not compare how Muslims in the US react to how Christians in the US react?

311 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:27:18pm

re: #306 samgak

Well for sure, there's certainly nothing original in the Islam comparison. But the reason the argument has become such a cliche is because it has substance. As long as the double-standard exists people will point it out. Boring huh?

If someone insults Islam, a certain number of Muslims will get violent, and a bunch of talking heads will fret about how we're not doing enough to be sensitive to them. If someone insults Christianity, Christians mostly whine about it on talk radio or make the occasional clumsy "direct action" protest like this one, and no one cares. As a result, people tippee-toe around Muslims with exaggerated deference and treat Christians as if they may be freely mocked. This is dangerous because some Christians are going to come to believe that if they want the deference afforded Islam, they need to act like Muslims when offended.

You don't spend much time in Irish bars.

312 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:27:27pm

re: #292 Ojoe

& to think that the renaissance artists worked without caffeine.

and the native americans worked with far far stronger stuff :)


Guess whose art i find more interesting? renaissance is interesting for technique. Renaissance art to me is not interesting to me the way experssionism and impressionism are interesting to me. dada is interesting. Constructivism is interesting. Analytical cubism is EXTREMELY INTERESTING. manray, Chagall, Miro, Duchamp, Goya are interesting to me. Real art. Nothing more real than Goya's black paintings. Beauty is beauty. Beauty isn't art.

313 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:27:41pm

re: #311 Decatur Deb

Ireland has outlawed blasphemy. But apparently that doesn't count because.

314 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:27:44pm

re: #298 Floral Giraffe

Psst, they had coke & other drugs.

Van Gogh just ate his paints

315 samgak  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:27:51pm

re: #271 Gus 802

Is the Vatican a left-liberal organization?


Um, so? I didn't say that it was exclusively left-liberals who condemned Koran burning. I said that in their case it was hypocritical, because they also defend the free speech of those desecrating Christian symbols. I disagree with the Vatican there (as with many things), but the Pope is at least being consistent.

316 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:28:02pm

Andy Warhol is also very controversial.
I loved the MOMA display of his Elsie the cow wallpaper.

317 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:28:08pm

re: #306 samgak

For a large part of human history, Christians did indeed act exactly "like Muslims," if that's intended to mean barbaric torture and brutal suppression.

318 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:28:28pm

re: #306 samgak

you are just a meme with typing fingers

please say something I haven't heard a million times before :(

319 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:28:43pm

re: #306 samgak

Why is religion the issue?
Just curious.

320 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:28:44pm

re: #305 wee fury

Vocal art

[Video]

Oh for the days of simple word subtlety.

321 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:28:52pm

re: #307 McSpiff

Self-defense laws in the US generally make sense to me. Thank God they weren't written like the tax code...

If your attacker is armed with a military grade firearm consult page 1040 section C. But if they're armed with a civilian grade firearm consult section F of page 1400. If they are armed with a military grade weapon that is not a firearm check section Z of page 1004....

322 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:28:53pm

re: #316 Floral Giraffe

Andy Warhol is also very controversial.
I loved the MOMA display of his Elsie the cow wallpaper.

love warhol, love his work, love his mind

323 jaunte  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:29:00pm

re: #306 samgak

They also smashed another work, which showed the hands of a meditating nun.


Obviously someone was freely mocking Christians.

324 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:29:10pm

re: #306 samgak

gah

325 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:29:38pm

re: #321 jamesfirecat

If your attacker is armed with a military grade firearm consult page 1040 section C. But if they're armed with a civilian grade firearm consult section F of page 1400. If they are armed with a military grade weapon that is not a firearm check section Z of page 1004...

hold on, my trenchcoat, I think I've got a 22 here somewhere...it's under the numchucks and the tonfa sticks

okay! We're set! let's defend the...they're gone?

326 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:29:51pm

re: #324 Stanley Sea

gah

iknowrite

327 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:29:53pm

re: #315 samgak

Um, so? I didn't say that it was exclusively left-liberals who condemned Koran burning. I said that in their case it was hypocritical, because they also defend the free speech of those desecrating Christian symbols. I disagree with the Vatican there (as with many things), but the Pope is at least being consistent.

No. You only exclusively mentioned left-liberal 4 times now (give or take) without even mentioning the conservative opposition (Mormons, Catholic Church, Baptists) to provide balance. You should thank me for pointing that out.

328 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:30:19pm

re: #306 samgak

Do you think that elected officials wanting to deny Muslims the right to build a community center in New York is 'tippee-toing' around them?

329 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:30:24pm

re: #299 goddamnedfrank

Zoe Washburne: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

Reverend Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

hahahahahaha you win

330 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:30:41pm

re: #327 Gus 802

No. You only exclusively mentioned left-liberal 4 times now (give or take) without even mentioning the conservative opposition (Mormons, Catholic Church, Baptists) to provide balance. You should thank me for pointing that out.

Democrat party!

331 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:30:57pm

re: #306 samgak

Well for sure, there's certainly nothing original in the Islam comparison. But the reason the argument has become such a cliche is because it has substance. As long as the double-standard exists people will point it out. Boring huh?

If someone insults Islam, a certain number of Muslims will get violent, and a bunch of talking heads will fret about how we're not doing enough to be sensitive to them. If someone insults Christianity, Christians mostly whine about it on talk radio or make the occasional clumsy "direct action" protest like this one, and no one cares. As a result, people tippee-toe around Muslims with exaggerated deference and treat Christians as if they may be freely mocked. This is dangerous because some Christians are going to come to believe that if they want the deference afforded Islam, they need to act like Muslims when offended.

fixed.

332 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:31:21pm

re: #331 Dark_Falcon

That did work. Let me try it again.

333 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:32:01pm

re: #332 Dark_Falcon

That didn't work. Let me try it again.

PIMF [headdesk]

334 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:32:24pm

re: #294 Naso Tang

I keep thinking I would not want to meet him alone in the dark.

That guy had a lot going on in his brainmeats *_*

I guess Giger would be the closest we have to Bosch today?

335 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:33:24pm

re: #306 samgak

Let me fix your font:

Well for sure, there's certainly nothing original in the Islam comparison. But the reason the argument has become such a cliche is because it has substance. As long as the double-standard exists people will point it out. Boring huh?

If someone insults Islam, a certain number of Muslims will get violent, and a bunch of talking heads will fret about how we're not doing enough to be sensitive to them. If someone insults Christianity, Christians mostly whine about it on talk radio or make the occasional clumsy "direct action" protest like this one, and no one cares. As a result, people tippee-toe around Muslims with exaggerated deference and treat Christians as if they may be freely mocked. This is dangerous because some Christians are going to come to believe that if they want the deference afforded Islam, they need to act like Muslims when offended.

That's better.

336 BryanS  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:33:41pm

Crap. Now I can't use the Piss Christ existence failing to incite violence as a counter example to Muslim reaction to a bunch of cartoons.

But I think both situations demand we defend the freedom of expression, even if insulting.

337 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:34:14pm

re: #313 Obdicut

Ireland has outlawed blasphemy. But apparently that doesn't count because.

Well, there goes the drama, poetry, and music.

338 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:34:25pm

re: #299 goddamnedfrank

Zoe Washburne: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

Reverend Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

GOT IT! Finally.

339 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:34:50pm

re: #337 Decatur Deb

But not the whiskey!
///

340 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:34:50pm

re: #337 Decatur Deb

Well, there goes the drama, poetry, and music.

don't forget comedy!

341 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:35:04pm

re: #337 Decatur Deb

Well, there goes the drama, poetry, and music.

///At least we still get to keep distillery right?

342 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:35:05pm

Am I alone in thinking that Piss Christ is a beautiful photograph? If you just look at it and ignore the title could you tell what's really going on? People are reacting solely to the artist's statement, taking it on faith that he's telling the truth and getting all pissed off about something that may or may not be true.

WindUpBird, did you attend Cornish in the early '90's? If so I'm guessing we know a couple of the same people.

343 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:35:15pm

re: #331 Dark_Falcon

This is dangerous because some Christians are going to come to believe that if they want the deference afforded Islam, they need to act like Muslims when offended.

No. They just need to act like Christians used to act when they had the power.

344 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:35:34pm

re: #306 samgak

Well for sure, there's certainly nothing original in the Islam comparison. But the reason the argument has become such a cliche is because it has substance. As long as the double-standard exists people will point it out. Boring huh?

If someone insults Islam, a certain number of Muslims will get violent, and a bunch of talking heads will fret about how we're not doing enough to be sensitive to them. If someone insults Christianity, Christians mostly whine about it on talk radio or make the occasional clumsy "direct action" protest like this one, and no one cares. As a result, people tippee-toe around Muslims with exaggerated deference and treat Christians as if they may be freely mocked. This is dangerous because some Christians are going to come to believe that if they want the deference afforded Islam, they need to act like Muslims when offended.

I see. The old impending Taqiyya! and Sharia! argument. Methinks you're overstating the "tippee-toeing" and failing to see the constant and daily mocking of Islam from the USA alone by the like of people like Spence and Geller and groups like SIOA. You also seem to have forgotten about feverish and irrational opposition to the building of Mosques across America. Muslims are slapped in the face daily by these social miscreants and that includes Allah. I don't see that much outrage because of these acts by the Muslim community in the USA and for the most part other European countries.

345 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:36:08pm

re: #334 WindUpBird

That guy had a lot going on in his brainmeats *_*

I guess Giger would be the closest we have to Bosch today?

I'm out of my depth here but after Googling, I have to say he must have worked on Alien.

346 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:36:09pm

re: #342 goddamnedfrank

Am I alone in thinking that Piss Christ is a beautiful photograph? If you just look at it and ignore the title could you tell what's really going on? People are reacting solely to the artist's statement, taking it on faith that he's telling the truth and getting all pissed off about something that may or may not be true.

WindUpBird, did you attend Cornish in the early '90's? If so I'm guessing we know a couple of the same people.

I attended cornish in the late 90's, I was a transfer from another college. Still, maybe!

347 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:36:14pm

re: #343 Charles

No. They just need to act like Christians used to act when they had the power.

/// You mean like the Holy Roman Emperors?

(Missing the point is fun, WEEEEEEEEEEE!)

348 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:36:44pm

re: #345 Naso Tang

I'm out of my depth here but after Googling, I have to say he must have worked on Alien.

Oh yes *_*

349 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:37:12pm

re: #345 Naso Tang

I'm out of my depth here but after Googling, I have to say he must have worked on Alien.

he also did production work with Robert venosa on a film for Dune that was cancelled :(

350 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:37:19pm

re: #342 goddamnedfrank

Am I alone in thinking that Piss Christ is a beautiful photograph? If you just look at it and ignore the title could you tell what's really going on? People are reacting solely to the artist's statement, taking it on faith that he's telling the truth and getting all pissed off about something that may or may not be true.

WindUpBird, did you attend Cornish in the early '90's? If so I'm guessing we know a couple of the same people.

It occurs to me to ask if anyone here attended Ecolint.

351 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:37:28pm

re: #345 Naso Tang

I'm out of my depth here but after Googling, I have to say he must have worked on Alien.

Don't know if he was hands-on, but the write-ups of the time credited him.

352 jaunte  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:37:56pm

re: #342 goddamnedfrank

If Serrano had called the photo Sunset in Atlantis, it would have been completely forgotten by now.

353 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:38:11pm

re: #347 jamesfirecat

Christianity went through a very violent phase in the past. It only ended with the 30 Years War, which decimated the population of the territories of the Holy Roman Empire.

354 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:39:12pm

re: #343 Charles

I wasn't actually saying that, Charles. I just goofed up trying to use the /wingnut font, is all.

355 BryanS  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:39:59pm

re: #331 Dark_Falcon

Well for sure, there's certainly nothing original in the Islam comparison. But the reason the argument has become such a cliche is because it has substance. As long as the double-standard exists people will point it out. Boring huh?

If someone insults Islam, a certain number of Muslims will get violent, and a bunch of talking heads will fret about how we're not doing enough to be sensitive to them. If someone insults Christianity, Christians mostly whine about it on talk radio or make the occasional clumsy "direct action" protest like this one, and no one cares. As a result, people tippee-toe around Muslims with exaggerated deference and treat Christians as if they may be freely mocked. This is dangerous because some Christians are going to come to believe that if they want the deference afforded Islam, they need to act like Muslims when offended.

fixed.


Here's a solution:

40 000 Qur'an copies Burn for Free Speech!

I do agree with the point--more offensive speech is needed to desensitize an overly sensitive group of religious zealots. I know it is impertinent to take this point of view, but people who kill over insults piss me off.

356 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:40:08pm

It is time to embed controller chips in everybody's brain to guarantee uniform thoughts and actions.

357 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:40:32pm

For you Korn fans, Giger Designed Jonathan Davis' crazy mic stand: Image: korn-mic-stand-02.jpg

358 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:40:44pm

re: #356 b_sharp

It is time to embed controller chips in everybody's brain to guarantee uniform thoughts and actions.

domo arigato

359 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:40:57pm

re: #353 ProLifeLiberal

Christianity went through a very violent phase in the past. It only ended hibernated with the 30 Years War World War 2, which decimated the population of the territories of the Holy Roman Empire.


i do what i can

360 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:41:02pm

re: #355 BryanS

Here's a solution:

40 000 Qur'an copies Burn for Free Speech!

[Video]I do agree with the point--more offensive speech is needed to desensitize an overly sensitive group of religious zealots. I know it is impertinent to take this point of view, but people who kill over insults piss me off.

Oh please. Not Thunderf00t. I put him in the same box as Pat Condell.

361 jaunte  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:41:07pm

re: #356 b_sharp

I can't do that, Dave.

362 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:42:15pm

re: #353 ProLifeLiberal

Come to think of it, that's probably the reason why Germany and Central Europe lagged behind for so long afterwards. The decimation of the population meant that social (and other) progress became stunted, people had the more basic issues, like survival, to deal with. Multiple Generations were affected, meaning it took a long time to recover.

363 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:42:20pm

talking about art means I'm ignoring my work, so I should probably start working on my work yeep *_*


good talk today, I dug it very much!

Obdicut was totally right, that was totally me going caffienated aggro internet tough, whoops. I become very mamabear about some of my work *_*

364 samgak  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:42:23pm

re: #310 Obdicut

If someone insults Christianity, Christians mostly whine about it on talk radio or make the occasional clumsy "direct action" protest like this one, and no one cares.

What are you talking about? Every goddamn year there's the 'war on Christmas' meme which is total bullshit.

You're also comparing how Christians in this country act to how Muslims in the Mid-East react.

Why not compare how Muslims in the US react to how Christians in the US react?


I haven't heard the "War on Christmas" meme (I don't live in the US).

Why should the US be the focus here? This incident happened in France.
re: #318 WindUpBird

you are just a meme with typing fingers

please say something I haven't heard a million times before :(


So why don't you have some good answers to it?

365 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:42:44pm

re: #361 jaunte

I can't do that, Dave.

Dave's not here

366 KronoGhazi  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:43:14pm
367 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:43:23pm

re: #359 SpaceJesus

i do what i can

World War 2 wasn't about Christianity.

368 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:43:53pm

The Age of Reason. Invading a country that had little to do with 9/11 under the pretense of WMDs and in the process killing close to 100,000 civilians. Now, I'm not exactly saying that invasion was good or bad per se but that's what happened.

369 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:43:59pm

re: #362 ProLifeLiberal

Come to think of it, that's probably the reason why Germany and Central Europe lagged behind for so long afterwards. The decimation of the population meant that social (and other) progress became stunted, people had the more basic issues, like survival, to deal with. Multiple Generations were affected, meaning it took a long time to recover.

They also lost out on trans-oceanic colonization. Never caught the wave.

370 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:44:44pm

re: #366 BigPapa

The Proper way to put on a condom

Pretty safe...

That pic offends my sensibilities far more than Piss Christ ever could.

371 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:45:19pm

re: #360 Gus 802

Oh please. Not Thunderf00t. I put him in the same box as Pat Condell.

But there is a certain logic to the thought is there not? It is the same concept that schools of fish use to confuse the sharks or flocks of birds do to the falcon.

Give so many targets they don't know which way to turn. Of course there are always a few lucky hits, but the cause is good....

372 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:45:37pm

re: #356 b_sharp

I'm brain protected, as an art lover!

373 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:45:37pm

re: #364 samgak

Look dude.

here's how it works with me. You stick around for a while and you're not actually a talking point? Then perhaps, you and I may have robust and frank exchanges.

But you're the latest in a long line of dudes who shows up on LGF for two threads, parrots the lefty left muslimey muslim memes, then dissappears.


You are transparent :)

374 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:45:37pm

re: #364 samgak

Okay, France, where they just banned the burqa, is a place where people tippee-toe around Muslims?

What?

375 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:45:39pm

re: #367 Dark_Falcon


christianity was used by the states as a violent hate tool

376 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:46:00pm

re: #374 Obdicut

Okay, France, where they just banned the burqa, is a place where people tippee-toe around Muslims?

What?

obvious troll (or sock) is obvious

377 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:46:39pm

re: #342 goddamnedfrank

Am I alone in thinking that Piss Christ is a beautiful photograph? If you just look at it and ignore the title could you tell what's really going on? People are reacting solely to the artist's statement, taking it on faith that he's telling the truth and getting all pissed off about something that may or may not be true.

WindUpBird, did you attend Cornish in the early '90's? If so I'm guessing we know a couple of the same people.

What I think he's saying is, your religion is crap (quite literally) yet, you look at it and see how beautiful it is. You don't see it's covered in crap. He's not just insulting the image of Christ but those who believe.

This painting has been around 24 years and has never been harmed till now. Serrano must be thinking, that's a pretty good run for all that's been said. Of course, I think it's wrong to destroy it, but most Christians should get at least a little credit for not declaring a fatwa.

378 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:46:40pm

re: #359 SpaceJesus

World War II may have used latent prejudices to various ends, but Germany was more enthralled in a Cult of Personality/Cult of Racial Myth. Certainly, religion is a factor in conflicts between groups of Christians (The Troubles and the War between the Croats and Serbs come to mind), but it's no longer the primary reason. Today it just counts as additional fuel. Thirty Years War began as a religious conflict.

379 KronoGhazi  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:46:47pm

re: #370 JasonA

That pic offends my sensibilities far more than Piss Christ ever could.

Yes, but the look on her face makes it much funnier.

380 BryanS  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:46:54pm

re: #366 BigPapa

The Proper way to put on a condom

Pretty safe...

At first I thought it was a link to the South Park skit with Mr/Mrs Garrison teaching sex ed.

Still, pretty funny.

381 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:47:01pm

re: #373 WindUpBird

Naked, even!

382 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:47:13pm

re: #370 JasonA

That pic offends my sensibilities far more than Piss Christ ever could.

You are too cruel. The poor girl can't help how she looks.

383 theheat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:47:24pm

re: #88 WindUpBird

Thomas Kincade is (R.I.P.) Bob Ross in drag, way more rich, and not even an ounce as sincere.

384 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:48:32pm

re: #369 Decatur Deb

Too busy recovering from one of the most (if not THE most) demographically devastating conflicts in history to go off getting far off lands.

385 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:48:50pm

re: #371 Naso Tang

But there is a certain logic to the thought is there not? It is the same concept that schools of fish use to confuse the sharks or flocks of birds do to the falcon.

Give so many targets they don't know which way to turn. Of course there are always a few lucky hits, but the cause is good...

I need some help here given the fact that we had a hand in creating the Mujahideen and are close friends and allies with Saudi Arabia. I also need some help in understanding our hand in creating Saddam Hussein. Why is it that we always choose to ignore our history yet always choose to bring up ancient history of the Muslim people? Where Tunderfoot fails is that he refuses to acknowledge modern history and US meddling.

386 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:48:51pm

re: #378 ProLifeLiberal


heh, no. christian identity was huge in world war 2

Image: gott_mit_uns.jpg

387 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:49:14pm

re: #382 Naso Tang

You are too cruel. The poor girl can't help how she looks.

Wait until she sees that most of us aren't hung like that...

388 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:49:28pm

re: #385 Gus 802

I need some help here given the fact that we had a hand in creating the Mujahideen and are close friends and allies with Saudi Arabia. I also need some help in understanding our hand in creating Saddam Hussein. Why is it that we always choose to ignore our history yet always choose to bring up ancient history of the Muslim people? Where Tunderfoot fails is that he refuses to acknowledge modern history and US meddling.

Their warts!


HUGE!


Our warts?

We have warts?

389 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:49:46pm

okay, must leave and be responsible *_*

390 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:49:58pm

re: #386 SpaceJesus

Hitler wasn't a Christian. Your argument is rejected. You may return to space.

391 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:50:12pm

re: #352 jaunte

If Serrano had called the photo Sunset in Atlantis, it would have been completely forgotten by now.

See, this is what gets me. While "piss" is arguably disrespectful slang, there's nothing inherently degrading about urine. Watersports aren't my scene, but if the players are healthy urine is completely sterile, hell it cures athlete's foot. From all accounts Serrano was a Catholic, at least raised as such, and where other's see offense I see a tabula rasa for the viewer to imprint their own emotions on and then react to.

That said, I don't have a ton of art instruction. I took art history courses in undergrad and graduate school, and a fine art photography class as part of my M.S. coursework, but never went for the MFA. So "back off man, I'm a scientist."

392 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:50:17pm

re: #388 WindUpBird

Their warts!

HUGE!

Our warts?

We have warts?

Twelve eyes for and eye. Twelve teeth for a tooth. Post 9/11 standards. It's OK. God's on our side.

393 BryanS  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:50:18pm

re: #385 Gus 802

I need some help here given the fact that we had a hand in creating the Mujahideen and are close friends and allies with Saudi Arabia. I also need some help in understanding our hand in creating Saddam Hussein. Why is it that we always choose to ignore our history yet always choose to bring up ancient history of the Muslim people? Where Tunderfoot fails is that he refuses to acknowledge modern history and US meddling.

It's meddling in foreign policy to burn a Koran?

394 engineer cat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:50:26pm

re: #306 samgak

and treat Christians as if they may be freely mocked

well, if it's any consolation, i don't feel at all as if i may freely mock christians or christianity, even if i wanted to

395 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:50:51pm

re: #389 WindUpBird

okay, must leave and be responsible *_*

Why?
Do go, if you must.

396 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:51:01pm

re: #370 JasonA

That pic offends my sensibilities far more than Piss Christ ever could.

Yes.

397 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:51:15pm

re: #390 Dark_Falcon

Hitler wasn't a Christian. Your argument is rejected. You may return to space.

Hitler USED Christianity to his ends.

398 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:51:28pm

re: #393 BryanS

It's meddling in foreign policy to burn a Koran?

Why don't you ask General Petraeus. He seemed to think so and I'm sure President Bush would have thought so too. But that wasn't what I was leading at.

399 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:51:31pm

re: #390 Dark_Falcon

Hitler wasn't a Christian. Your argument is rejected. You may return to space.

Hitler may not have been a Christian, but those Nazis wearing those belt buckles, by and large, were.

The vast majority.

400 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:51:42pm

re: #395 Floral Giraffe

Why?
Do go, if you must.

because I still got like 8 hours of work ahead of me :P

401 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:52:05pm

re: #386 SpaceJesus

But were they Christian otherwise? The Nazis gleefully persecuted any pastor who spoke against them, regardless of denomination. What about the whole "Aryan" (Nazis failed history forever) thing? That was far more important a factor.

402 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:52:12pm

re: #384 ProLifeLiberal

Too busy recovering from one of the most (if not THE most) demographically devastating conflicts in history to go off getting far off lands.

That, and lousy access to the sea and seafaring traditions.

403 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:52:23pm

re: #390 Dark_Falcon


hitler was catholic, and the discrimination against the jews was nothing he just invented. the holocaust would never have been possible without centuries of jew hate promoted by both the catholic church and martin luther

404 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:53:10pm

re: #402 Decatur Deb

Denmark is pretty sucky in that respect. :P

405 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:53:25pm

Oh cripes. The anti-Semitism of Germany was largely bred by the writings of Martin Luther.

406 jaunte  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:53:43pm

re: #403 SpaceJesus

[Link: www.google.com...]

407 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:54:03pm

re: #403 SpaceJesus

Hitler may or may not have been sincerely Catholic. Impossible to tell. It missed the point, I think, to focus on Hitler. Nobody denies that Germany was an overwhelmingly Christian country. They didn't all just give up Christianity during WWII. Christian imagery and direct appeals to godliness are in tons of Nazi propaganda.

408 BryanS  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:54:25pm

re: #390 Dark_Falcon

Hitler wasn't a Christian. Your argument is rejected. You may return to space.

Hitchens is more knowledgeable and articulate on this subject than I:

409 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:55:47pm

re: #401 ProLifeLiberal


not really, the aryan thing came later. the jew hate was already there and was being promoted by christian churches as it had been for centuries by the time nazi-style eugenics came around.

410 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:56:01pm

re: #403 SpaceJesus

Hitler was not a Catholic by the time he came to power. He despised the Church and only refrained from outright persecution of it because Mussolini convinced him it would boomerang.

411 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:56:18pm

Wow--trying to google a reference to the Inquisition in the New World brought me to this site. (Linked as a cache, I hope.) It is a small but pure slice of particular crazy:

[Link: www.google.com...]

412 samgak  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:56:53pm

re: #344 Gus 802

I see. The old impending Taqiyya! and Sharia! argument.


There is no risk of Sharia in any Western country. What is at risk is that violent reactions by a minority (even in other countries) will be used as an excuse to enact anti-blasphemy and anti-hate speech laws for the benefit of "social harmony", which will end up curtailing the ability to criticize religion (Christianity included) and other basic democratic freedoms. It's not Muslims per se who are a problem.

That's why the hysteria about this defacement grates so much, because many who defend Serrano wouldn't have the backbone to insist on free speech and artistic expression where insulting Muslims is concerned. NOT because it's a "war on Christians". Freedom to insult all religions should be guaranteed.
re: #344 Gus 802

Methinks you're overstating the "tippee-toeing" and failing to see the constant and daily mocking of Islam from the USA alone by the like of people like Spence and Geller and groups like SIOA. You also seem to have forgotten about feverish and irrational opposition to the building of Mosques across America. Muslims are slapped in the face daily by these social miscreants and that includes Allah. I don't see that much outrage because of these acts by the Muslim community in the USA and for the most part other European countries.


I can only observe American politics from a distance. However are Pamela Geller and Spencer really big public figures? I thought she just had a blog.

413 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:56:59pm

re: #404 ProLifeLiberal

Denmark is pretty sucky in that respect. :P

They quit when they got the Virgin Islands.

414 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:56:59pm

re: #405 Gus 802

and so was Nazi Germany's official church, The Reichskirche

415 engineer cat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:57:27pm

it's not much discussed these days, but the nazis caused a lot of turmoil in germany in the mid 30s by trying to take over the protestant church and nazify it. for a while the church was split, but the nazis gave up on the effort after it was apparent that it wasn't going to be easy

On November 1933, A Protestant mass rally of the Deutsche Christen, which brought together a record 20,000 people, passed three resolutions:

Adolf Hitler is the completion of the Reformation,
Baptized Jews are to be dismissed from the Church
The Old Testament is to be excluded from Sacred Scriptures

416 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:58:05pm

re: #381 Floral Giraffe

Naked, even!

You just said naked. Hehehehe.

417 b_snark  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:59:29pm

re: #388 WindUpBird

Their warts!

HUGE!

Our warts?

We have warts?

Why do you hate America?

418 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:00:29pm

re: #412 samgak

The actual country in Europe with anti-blasphemy laws is Ireland. About blasphemy towards the Catholic faith.

419 samgak  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:01:42pm

re: #374 Obdicut

Okay, France, where they just banned the burqa, is a place where people tippee-toe around Muslims?

What?


Why not discuss it in terms of the Western world at large?

I'm against the burqa ban btw. Women should be able to wear what they want.

420 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:01:58pm

Mildly related anecdote, I dated a sweet sweet Catholic girl who thought that Piss Christ was one of the most amazing pieces of work she'd ever viewed, both in how it challenged the viewer to think about symbolism and what is important for faith. She always felt that people who were threatened by their symbols being desecrated were insecure in their faith.

It also got me to introduce her to one of my favorite bands as they had a song named 'Pisschrist' that came out in 95.

I think more people could use her attitude.

421 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:03:28pm

'Nite, all.

422 BryanS  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:04:09pm

re: #418 Obdicut

The actual country in Europe with anti-blasphemy laws is Ireland. About blasphemy towards the Catholic faith.

Sad to see such an offense against freedom codified in law in a western country.

423 APox  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:04:15pm

re: #189 WindUpBird

Go to the worst section of detroit and say BLACK PEOPLE ARE DISGUSTING

I'M RICH AND I LIVE IN A NICE HOUSE IN THE SUBURBS, WHAT'S THEIR FUCKING PROBLEM

Sorry just got back from the gym...

But what exactly are you saying these hypothetical black people would do?

424 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:04:19pm

re: #385 Gus 802

I need some help here given the fact that we had a hand in creating the Mujahideen and are close friends and allies with Saudi Arabia. I also need some help in understanding our hand in creating Saddam Hussein. Why is it that we always choose to ignore our history yet always choose to bring up ancient history of the Muslim people? Where Tunderfoot fails is that he refuses to acknowledge modern history and US meddling.

My previous comment was very tongue in cheek, in case you missed that.

However the style of historical analysis that always blames the US, or the West, for the world's ills does not impress me. Hindsight is easy.

The fact is that whatever mistakes were made in the past, to the extent that they could possibly have been recognized as serious mistakes at the time, do not change the simple fact that people afterwards have always had the choice to make the best of circumstances and advance to a better future; and by people here I mean the ones you suggest are the injured party.

425 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:04:37pm

re: #410 Dark_Falcon


hitler was catholic, and one in good standing with the church.

"The National Government regards the two Christian confessions as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people." - Hitler to the Reichstag, 1933


fun fact: the vatican celebrated hitler's birthday every april 20th, until the war ended

426 samgak  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:04:49pm

re: #418 Obdicut

The actual country in Europe with anti-blasphemy laws is Ireland. About blasphemy towards the Catholic faith.


Not true, the Irish law is not specific to Catholicism.

Laws against "religious incitement" and so on in the UK that ban desecration of religious symbols are in effect blasphemy laws, even if they are not called such.

427 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:04:57pm

re: #413 Decatur Deb

We got a good deal on that one. They should become more important in the US.

428 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:06:29pm

re: #425 SpaceJesus

in sum, christianity played a central role in 20th century fascism, and without its history of intolerance, the holocaust would not have been possible.

429 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:07:35pm

re: #424 Naso Tang

My previous comment was very tongue in cheek, in case you missed that.

However the style of historical analysis that always blames the US, or the West, for the world's ills does not impress me. Hindsight is easy.

The fact is that whatever mistakes were made in the past, to the extent that they could possibly have been recognized as serious mistakes at the time, do not change the simple fact that people afterwards have always had the choice to make the best of circumstances and advance to a better future; and by people here I mean the ones you suggest are the injured party.

No. That's not exactly what I meant. The point isn't that we are to blame for 100 percent of the problems we face. This is ignoring the other half of Americans who constantly believe that we've never done anything wrong. The point is that it's a combined effort for the most part. Given our military, and monetary supremacy though it's only natural that we have the advantage and ability to do more harm than good at times.

430 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:09:20pm

re: #427 ProLifeLiberal

I mean the purchase of the Virgin Islands from Denmark. I misread what you wrote.

431 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:11:57pm

re: #425 SpaceJesus

Source?

432 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:14:26pm

re: #377 marjoriemoon

What I think he's saying is, your religion is crap (quite literally) yet, you look at it and see how beautiful it is. You don't see it's covered in crap. He's not just insulting the image of Christ but those who believe.

This painting has been around 24 years and has never been harmed till now. Serrano must be thinking, that's a pretty good run for all that's been said. Of course, I think it's wrong to destroy it, but most Christians should get at least a little credit for not declaring a fatwa.

I don't think he was commenting on the religion. He was raised Catholic and has never spoken out against the Church as far as I can tell. I think he was creating a thing for people to react to, and they did. If I'm pressed to search for intent, I think he's saying that the jar of urine is no more of degradation per se than the mass production of cheap disposable crucifixes out of molded plastic.

433 APox  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:16:07pm

re: #423 APox

No takers, huh. :/

434 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:16:26pm

re: #412 samgak

There is no risk of Sharia in any Western country. What is at risk is that violent reactions by a minority (even in other countries) will be used as an excuse to enact anti-blasphemy and anti-hate speech laws for the benefit of "social harmony", which will end up curtailing the ability to criticize religion (Christianity included) and other basic democratic freedoms. It's not Muslims per se who are a problem.

That's why the hysteria about this defacement grates so much, because many who defend Serrano wouldn't have the backbone to insist on free speech and artistic expression where insulting Muslims is concerned. NOT because it's a "war on Christians". Freedom to insult all religions should be guaranteed.
re: #344 Gus 802

I can only observe American politics from a distance. However are Pamela Geller and Spencer really big public figures? I thought she just had a blog.

Frankly. I don't know what to think of "Piss Christ". I never did. But you're missing an important factor here. Piss Christ was not intended to be a political act. The West is also not at war with Christianity and the Muslims see this as a war against them perpetrated by American Christians. Whether we like to believe that or not -- it's how they see it. The same thing holds true with the Allah cartoons in Denmark. That was done within the context of a military invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. We are also looking at two distinct cultures and varying forms of reactions.

Jones does not equal Serrano.

435 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:17:07pm

re: #429 Gus 802

Given our military, and monetary supremacy though it's only natural that we have the advantage and ability to do more harm than good at times.

There is always someone who is harmed more than someone else and, like art, there are different perspectives on what is harm.

We didn't kill 100,000 civilians in Iraq, for example. We didn't carpet bomb, or gas cities or deny food. If that many died it was because of what they did to each other.

Regardless of one's feeling about that war, Iraq is a better place today than before. If it turns out worse in the future it will be because the Iraqi culture is incapable of better, not because of the USA.

Afghanistan is, IMHO, incapable of better.

At least half of Libya is incapable of better.

We should stop pretending that all it takes is elections to create free and mature societies in a global environment.

436 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:18:09pm

re: #435 Naso Tang

There is always someone who is harmed more than someone else and, like art, there are different perspectives on what is harm.

We didn't kill 100,000 civilians in Iraq, for example. We didn't carpet bomb, or gas cities or deny food. If that many died it was because of what they did to each other.

Regardless of one's feeling about that war, Iraq is a better place today than before. If it turns out worse in the future it will be because the Iraqi culture is incapable of better, not because of the USA.

Afghanistan is, IMHO, incapable of better.

At least half of Libya is incapable of better.

We should stop pretending that all it takes is elections to create free and mature societies in a global environment.

Really? OK, nevermind then. Forget I said anything.

437 theheat  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:18:19pm

re: #432 goddamnedfrank

This piece of art, like so much art out there, is thought provoking and its interpretation lies in the eye of the beholder. While I don't think it's particularly clever or beautiful in the classic art sense, it's been a very important piece because it is so provocative.

438 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:18:20pm

re: #432 goddamnedfrank

I don't think he was commenting on the religion. He was raised Catholic and has never spoken out against the Church as far as I can tell. I think he was creating a thing for people to react to, and they did. If I'm pressed to search for intent, I think he's saying that the jar of urine is no more of degradation per se than the mass production of cheap disposable crucifixes out of molded plastic.

He seems to consider himself a Christian, but it's the Catholic Church he has issues with. Two quotes:

As a former Catholic, and as someone who even today is not opposed to being called a Christian, I felt I had every right to use the symbols of the Church and resented being told not to.

I am drawn to Christ but I have real problems with the Catholic Church.

[Link: www.brainyquote.com...]

439 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:21:16pm

re: #438 marjoriemoon

Which actually does explain the piece.

A quick look at the wiki, he's fond of using bodily fluids in his art. Semen, menstrual blood, human milk, feces. I didn't know much about him really and now I see, there's a good reason for that!

440 BryanS  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:21:36pm

re: #434 Gus 802

Frankly. I don't know what to think of "Piss Christ". I never did. But you're missing an important factor here. Piss Christ was not intended to be a political act. The West is also not at war with Christianity and the Muslims see this as a war against them perpetrated by American Christians. Whether we like to believe that or not -- it's how they see it. The same thing holds true with the Allah cartoons in Denmark. That was done within the context of a military invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. We are also looking at two distinct cultures and varying forms of reactions.

Jones does not equal Serrano.

So what? The reaction to an offensive act with murder is the worst possible reaction. No context is going to change my opinion that the reaction by those extremists was inhuman and immoral. And no amount of contextualizing will convince me there is any mitigating factors lessening the evil perpetrated by those murderers.

441 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:22:39pm

re: #436 Gus 802

Really? OK, nevermind then. Forget I said anything.

Sorry to disappoint.

442 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:28:09pm

re: #438 marjoriemoon

He seems to consider himself a Christian, but it's the Catholic Church he has issues with. Two quotes:

[Link: www.brainyquote.com...]

Fair enough. I still don't think from such a perspective that immersing the crucifix in urine is any more degrading or disrespectful than mass producing it out of cheap molded plastic in the first place. I still see this as largely equivalent to Sinéad O'Connor tearing up the Pope's photograph, artists generating reactions through symbols / objects representing the faiths they were raised in. Neither rejected Christianity, but both have expressed problems with the institution of the RCC.

Interestingly, Sinéad is now a priest.

443 samgak  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:29:11pm

re: #434 Gus 802

Frankly. I don't know what to think of "Piss Christ". I never did. But you're missing an important factor here. Piss Christ was not intended to be a political act. The West is also not at war with Christianity and the Muslims see this as a war against them perpetrated by American Christians. Whether we like to believe that or not -- it's how they see it. The same thing holds true with the Allah cartoons in Denmark. That was done within the context of a military invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. We are also looking at two distinct cultures and varying forms of reactions.

Jones does not equal Serrano.


Those are good points I'll grant, there are differences and no analogy is perfect. However the principle is the same in both cases, and if the Serrano piece is less inflammatory, the Christian response is correspondingly much much less severe than in the Koran burning example. Political expression should also receive the same protection as art, Jones is no less entitled to his expression because of its political nature. It's also a bad idea to grant the offended party the implicit right to define in what context a work of art or political expression should be interpreted when deciding if it is acceptable. Then we would have to interpret Serrano's work from the perspective of a SSPX Catholic. Why privilege the Muslim perception of a crusade against them over Jones (admittedly crazy) perception of a Muslim war of conquest on the West?

444 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:29:16pm

re: #312 WindUpBird

As an architect I like Gothic.

It has grown on me over the years.

A lot.

Also any Cistertian building; the plain simple stuff.

445 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:29:20pm

re: #440 BryanS

So what? The reaction to an offensive act with murder is the worst possible reaction. No context is going to change my opinion that the reaction by those extremists was inhuman and immoral. And no amount of contextualizing will convince me there is any mitigating factors lessening the evil perpetrated by those murderers.

Again, that's not my point. Here, I'll be blunt. We have blood on our hands too. Better?

446 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:32:17pm

re: #301 McSpiff

Uhh, when do you think coffee was introduced to Italy?

First Italian coffeehouse reportedly around 1645, at least according to the book, "The Coffee Lover's Companion."

By then, it was the Baroque era, so the high Renaissance artists did without coffee, most probably.


Good night all.

447 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:32:32pm

re: #442 goddamnedfrank

Fair enough. I still don't think from such a perspective that immersing the crucifix in urine is any more degrading or disrespectful than mass producing it out of cheap molded plastic in the first place. I still see this as largely equivalent to Sinéad O'Connor tearing up the Pope's photograph, artists generating reactions through symbols / objects representing the faiths they were raised in. Neither rejected Christianity, but both have expressed problems with the institution of the RCC.

Interestingly, Sinéad is now a priest.

And see what happened to her for that! LOL (tearing up the pic)

Her ordination (is that the right word?) is controversial and the Church doesn't recognize it. But the points are similar. For Sinead, she was angry at the Church for molesting children. That was always (and I believe still is) her mission, to expose and stop it. She decided to join the fight from within now. I don't know why Serrano is upset.

448 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:37:00pm

re: #443 samgak

Those are good points I'll grant, there are differences and no analogy is perfect. However the principle is the same in both cases, and if the Serrano piece is less inflammatory, the Christian response is correspondingly much much less severe than in the Koran burning example. Political expression should also receive the same protection as art, Jones is no less entitled to his expression because of its political nature. It's also a bad idea to grant the offended party the implicit right to define in what context a work of art or political expression should be interpreted when deciding if it is acceptable. Then we would have to interpret Serrano's work from the perspective of a SSPX Catholic. Why privilege the Muslim perception of a crusade against them over Jones (admittedly crazy) perception of a Muslim war of conquest on the West?

If my neighbor is a Muslim do you think I should be allowed to burn a Koran in front of him? If my neighbor is a Christian should I be able to show him a Crucfix dipped in urine? Like I said. I really don't understand this whole concept and frankly I'm starting to think it's all rather immature and that includes whatever religious symbolism. As an atheist I am no fan of religion but I have no interest in defacing religious symbolism to prove a point. And one of those reasons is because I would never burn a Koran in front of my Muslim neighbor, nor burn Crucifix. That's me speaking on a personal level.

449 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:38:17pm

So to Thunderf00t I proposed this little experiment. Find a new place to live and make sure you move in next door to a Muslim family. Them, when the time is right, burn a Koran in front of your new neighbors.

450 samgak  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 8:46:35pm

re: #448 Gus 802

If my neighbor is a Muslim do you think I should be allowed to burn a Koran in front of him?


Yes.

If my neighbor is a Christian should I be able to show him a Crucfix dipped in urine?


Yes.

Like I said. I really don't understand this whole concept and frankly I'm starting to think it's all rather immature and that includes whatever religious symbolism. As an atheist I am no fan of religion but I have no interest in defacing religious symbolism to prove a point. And one of those reasons is because I would never burn a Koran in front of my Muslim neighbor, nor burn Crucifix. That's me speaking on a personal level.


Personally I have no desire to either of those things either, but something that is an immature and offensive stunt in isolation can be a meaningful statement in others. For example if some religious group demanded that desecrating their symbols be made illegal and anyone doing so will burn in Hell, then doing so in defiance of their proclamations could be an affirmation of secular principles by forcefully demonstrating that they are not binding on you. And so on. There's also the "sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" aspect where once desecration of one group's symbols has been permitted, consistency demands permitting the desecration of others, or else you have a double standard with one group privileged over another.

451 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:19:00pm

re: #21 WindUpBird

I'm sorry guys

But I REALLY LIKE THAT PHOTO

because the point is that it's really a beautiful photo, just done with...pee.

pee's sterile anyway, I don't think Jesus is threatened by pee. i'm sure he'll be okay ^_^

Also, Metallica's Load and Reload? Covers by Andres Serrano. The covers are his semen and blood placed between glass.

So if you own Load and Reload... :D

Ew. Freud would have a field day with that, I imagine.

452 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:24:46pm

re: #439 marjoriemoon

Which actually does explain the piece.

A quick look at the wiki, he's fond of using bodily fluids in his art. Semen, menstrual blood, human milk, feces. I didn't know much about him really and now I see, there's a good reason for that!

sounds more like biohazard trash out back of a hospital than art to me..

453 BryanS  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:26:52pm

re: #448 Gus 802

If my neighbor is a Muslim do you think I should be allowed to burn a Koran in front of him? If my neighbor is a Christian should I be able to show him a Crucfix dipped in urine? Like I said. I really don't understand this whole concept and frankly I'm starting to think it's all rather immature and that includes whatever religious symbolism. As an atheist I am no fan of religion but I have no interest in defacing religious symbolism to prove a point. And one of those reasons is because I would never burn a Koran in front of my Muslim neighbor, nor burn Crucifix. That's me speaking on a personal level.

Yes. And yes.

Of course there is a difference between 'can' and 'ought'. You would never do those things because you're a decent person. If if not, as you suggest, then what exactly is the standard by which we forbid free speech? A Muslim who converts to any other religion is offensive to other Muslims. I bet Ayaan Hirsi Ali offends many Muslims every time she makes a speech. Her very existence is offensive to many Muslims such that she has to go around with 24/7 protection, receiving death threats after renouncing Islam.

Since her speech is so offensive to Muslims, shall we imprison her? Would Muslims be justified in silencing her permanently? I'll cut short my sarcasm and of course acknowledge nobody on this blog would condone that. Yes, my argument is a 'slippery slope' argument. But if the appropriate response to acts of violence in response to insults is to restrict speech, than there is no free speech.

454 BryanS  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:30:18pm
If if not this should not be allowed, as you suggest, then what exactly is the standard by which we forbid free speech?

edit...PIMF

455 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:33:16pm

re: #453 BryanS

Yes. And yes.

Of course there is a difference between 'can' and 'ought'. You would never do those things because you're a decent person. If if not, as you suggest, then what exactly is the standard by which we forbid free speech? A Muslim who converts to any other religion is offensive to other Muslims. I bet Ayaan Hirsi Ali offends many Muslims every time she makes a speech. Her very existence is offensive to many Muslims such that she has to go around with 24/7 protection, receiving death threats after renouncing Islam.

Since her speech is so offensive to Muslims, shall we imprison her? Would Muslims be justified in silencing her permanently? I'll cut short my sarcasm and of course acknowledge nobody on this blog would condone that. Yes, my argument is a 'slippery slope' argument. But if the appropriate response to acts of violence in response to insults is to restrict speech, than there is no free speech.

As I said, "that's me speaking on a personal level." It wasn't a policy statement nor proposed legislation. It's what-I-would-not-do. I don't have an answer to your questions nor for Ayaan. I really don't. Sometimes there is no answer. In the case of Ayaan her rights are still protected in the USA and shall be for a very long time. Some people propose that we "get rid of religion" but that doesn't change human behavior. Human behavior came long before the invention of religion. One of those behavior is violence. More people are killed yearly for being gay then for speaking out against Islam in the USA. I have my priorities.

456 BryanS  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:33:18pm

re: #449 Gus 802

So to Thunderf00t I proposed this little experiment. Find a new place to live and make sure you move in next door to a Muslim family. Them, when the time is right, burn a Koran in front of your new neighbors.

That is a vile thing to say. You know he would end up dead. At a minimum you count on that result by inference, and the condone the result with your tone of schadenfreude.

457 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:37:27pm

re: #456 BryanS

... What? You're seriously asserting that his neighbor would kill him?

458 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:40:03pm

re: #456 BryanS

That is a vile thing to say. You know he would end up dead. At a minimum you count on that result by inference, and the condone the result with your tone of schadenfreude.

Hmm. Actually, death didn't even come to mind. No. My point is that he would destroy his relationship with his neighbor and that it would lead to conflict. Not everything leads to death. I think it's you with the schadenfreude if that's what you believe. You're creating a scenario for yourself that didn't even exist and one that I didn't even create. No?

459 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:41:54pm

I'm trying to make a "do unto others" point here.

460 BryanS  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:47:16pm

re: #458 Gus 802

Hmm. Actually, death didn't even come to mind. No. My point is that he would destroy his relationship with his neighbor and that it would lead to conflict. Not everything leads to death. I think it's you with the schadenfreude if that's what you believe. You're creating a scenario for yourself that didn't even exist and one that I didn't even create. No?

Burning a Koran is deadly business
[Link: dailycaller.com...]

$2.4mil price on that yahoo pastor's head. If the Koran is burned and becomes known beyond that neighbor, yes, the result could be dangerous, even deadly. That said, I see where you're coming from.

461 samgak  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:47:48pm

re: #327 Gus 802

No. You only exclusively mentioned left-liberal 4 times now (give or take) without even mentioning the conservative opposition (Mormons, Catholic Church, Baptists) to provide balance. You should thank me for pointing that out.


Missed this before.

The opposition of conservatives to desecrating religious symbols is a given. Also, these groups are consistent in that they condemn desecration of Islamic AND Christian religious items. Therefore there is nothing much to comment on. A significant number of left-liberals take an inconsistent position in condemning one and not the other. That is why they can be singled out.

462 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:48:42pm

re: #460 BryanS

Burning a Koran is deadly business
[Link: dailycaller.com...]

$2.4mil price on that yahoo pastor's head. If the Koran is burned and becomes known beyond that neighbor, yes, the result could be dangerous, even deadly. That said, I see where you're coming from.

Oh brother. The point is that you would never do such a thing in front of your neighbor. This isn't Time magazine. This isn't Newsweek. I'm talking about what you would do if you had a Muslim neighbor. Full stop.

463 boxhead  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:52:33pm

re: #459 Gus 802

I'm trying to make a "do unto others" point here.

Sadly I don't think those that think murder is an appropriate response to drawing cartoons or burning paper would understand the do unto others thing.

464 boxhead  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:55:09pm

re: #462 Gus 802

Oh brother. The point is that you would never do such a thing in front of your neighbor. This isn't Time magazine. This isn't Newsweek. I'm talking about what you would do if you had a Muslim neighbor. Full stop.

Trade dinner recipes... :)

465 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:55:16pm

re: #463 boxhead

Sadly I don't think those that think murder is an appropriate response to drawing cartoons or burning paper would understand the do unto others thing.

And for being gay, and for cheating on you, and for being black, and for being Mexican, and for owing you money, and for cutting you off on the road, and for not bringing you dinner on time...

466 boxhead  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 9:58:52pm

re: #465 Gus 802

And for being gay, and for cheating on you, and for being black, and for being Mexican, and for owing you money, and for cutting you off on the road, and for not bringing you dinner on time...

and for wearing the wrong sports team jersey.....

arrrr you are starting to ruin my buzz... :p

Our species sucks.... life is too short to go around angry all the time...

467 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 10:01:23pm

re: #466 boxhead

and for wearing the wrong sports team jersey...

arrr you are starting to ruin my buzz... :p

Our species sucks... life is too short to go around angry all the time...

I know. But hey that's life. More people were probably killed in one year for 10 bucks in the USA then all of those combined for burning the Koran or drawing Mohamed in ten years.

468 Gus  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 10:04:57pm

And spousal abuse, rape, spousal murder, child abuse, infanticide -- in the 1000s. One guy gets murdered for a Mohamed cartoon is bad but come on. Prioritize. Then you have the serial killers and missing children we see almost weekly on CNN. Prioritize.

469 boxhead  Mon, Apr 18, 2011 10:07:41pm

re: #467 Gus 802

I know. But hey that's life. More people were probably killed in one year for 10 bucks in the USA then all of those combined for burning the Koran or drawing Mohamed in ten years.

yes.... But don't you think there is a difference between individual acts of violence and culturally supported acts? And if you want, you can add all the Shia vs Sunni deaths to that list as well. I am not intending to paint a dark picture about one particular religion. I just don't care for whole cultures that still treat women as property. Individual Muslims I have met have been very cool. But being a man might have something to do with it.

arrr I feel I am rambling and not getting my true intent across the ether.

470 RogueOne  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 3:48:06am

re: #459 Gus 802

I'm trying to make a "do unto others" point here.

The rule is "do unto others before they do unto you"

471 Petero1818  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 7:12:06am

re: #6 Rightwingconspirator

I must admit I'm having a hard time equating the Afghanistan Buddha statues and an art piece designed to offend and belittle an entire religion.

While it is hard to find similarity in the particular works, both are works of art, and both were vandalized by religious fanatics. I fail to see how an art piece can be designed to offend and belittle a religion. Rather, the work in an expression of the conviction held by the artist, and perhaps a segment of society. If one is offended by it, that is his or her issue to deal with. One cannot hold an artist accountable for the reactions that his or her art engenders.

472 Basho  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 8:23:27am

Sometimes art takes on a life of its own. The artist wishes to express one thing, yet, due to the intricacies of the of the object, we come up with differing interpretations as our minds see hidden truths and deeper meaning within the art.

Andres Serrano created an image to mock the commercialization of religion. The public saw a urine soaked crucifix. Such a complex work of art it is.

473 Basho  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 8:26:43am

re: #471 Petero1818

While it is hard to find similarity in the particular works, both are works of art, and both were vandalized by religious fanatics. I fail to see how an art piece can be designed to offend and belittle a religion. Rather, the work in an expression of the conviction held by the artist, and perhaps a segment of society. If one is offended by it, that is his or her issue to deal with. One cannot hold an artist accountable for the reactions that his or her art engenders.

I wonder if those with this viewpoint would still hold it if it were, say, a sculpture of Martin Luther King Jr in that jar of urine.

474 Basho  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 8:35:28am

re: #437 theheat

This piece of art, like so much art out there, is thought provoking and its interpretation lies in the eye of the beholder. While I don't think it's particularly clever or beautiful in the classic art sense, it's been a very important piece because it is so provocative.

Kind of like that photo depicting Obama and his parents as apes...

475 Basho  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 8:40:33am

re: #7 researchok


All that the protesters have accomplished is to provide Andres Serrano more publicity.

Exactly. Now this trash has symbolic importance instead of it fading away into irrelevance.

476 Basho  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 8:43:54am

re: #64 samgak

I'm kind of in two minds about this. I don't support the vandalism per se, but in a way I'm glad to see it happen. There are a lot of left-liberals who call for restrictions on Koran desecrations and so on, who are pro-"tolerance" when it comes to offending Muslims but pro-free-speech when it comes to offending Christians. Having actions like this occur periodically stops cultural amnesia from setting in and reminds people to keep a consistent standard.

I would have loved to have a Piss Mohammed photo side-by-side with the Piss Christ photo and observe the reactions!

477 Basho  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 8:50:03am

re: #476 Basho

Not the physical reactions of course...

478 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 10:27:04am

re: #477 Basho

Not the physical reactions of course...

hey dead thread guy!

How's it going, dead thread guy?

479 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 10:27:31am

re: #473 Basho

I wonder if those with this viewpoint would still hold it if it were, say, a sculpture of Martin Luther King Jr in that jar of urine.

gettin' all racial there, dead thread guy?

480 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 10:28:24am

re: #475 Basho

I guess you don't know how to Google there, dead thread guy

481 Petero1818  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 11:21:39am

re: #473 Basho

I wonder if those with this viewpoint would still hold it if it were, say, a sculpture of Martin Luther King Jr in that jar of urine.

For me anyways it would still hold. It may be repugnant to some, or all, but the fact that someone has this belief and chooses to express it is after all their right. Just as it is the right of all those that find it repugnant to voice their disdain for it, and for the artist. To destroy property....not so much.

482 Petero1818  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 11:27:52am

re: #474 Basho

Kind of like that photo depicting Obama and his parents as apes...

I am willing to bite on this. Forgetting whether or not the photo of Obama as ape is art (you may also believe dogs playing poker is art - I don't) I don't think anyone believes that the individual responsible for the email did not have a right as an individual to send it. However, the fact that that individual was a member of the Republican Committee of OC does create different questions. I don't think anyone questions her right as an individual to do it. I question whether someone who would do it can or should have a place in a mainstream political party's apparatus. I do not think it appropriate for the "piss christ" artist to be setting policy for Federally supported faith based initiatives either.

483 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 11:30:03am

re: #481 Petero1818

the idea of the mainstream monoculture in America (fake tribalist Christianity) being compared to Martin Luther King Jr. is pretty repellent to me


Pigfucks like Basho have a whitey persecution complex, I have zero patience for suck fools

484 SidewaysQuark  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 1:04:05pm

re: #64 samgak


I'm kind of in two minds about this. I don't support the vandalism per se, but in a way I'm glad to see it happen. There are a lot of left-liberals who call for restrictions on Koran desecrations and so on, who are pro-"tolerance" when it comes to offending Muslims but pro-free-speech when it comes to offending Christians. Having actions like this occur periodically stops cultural amnesia from setting in and reminds people to keep a consistent standard.

I hear a lot about these mythical 'liberals' who hold this blatantly contradictory position, but I've honestly never actually met one. Could it be that 'liberal' is a description that runs a wide gamut, and that this is another case of conservative critics choosing obviously contradictory positions actually held by people on different ends of that gamut, rather than by the same individual?

Truth is there are a lot of liberals (most, in fact) who are pro-free speech when it comes to offending Christians (and pro-free speech when it comes to offending any religion). There's a few (but not many) who would restrict Koran desecration (and many of these would likely ban desecration of any religious work). I don't know of ANY liberals, personally, who think Islam deserves a special exemption. I'm sure there's a few out there, but no one prominent I've ever heard of, nor anyone I've ever met, has taken this strange stance....

485 Ojoe  Tue, Apr 19, 2011 6:48:46pm

Art is dead. And we have killed it.

—Paraphrasing Friedrich Nietzsche

486 samgak  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:11:43am

re: #484 SidewaysQuark

I hear a lot about these mythical 'liberals' who hold this blatantly contradictory position, but I've honestly never actually met one.


I've met plenty, both online and IRL. However, they don't usually advocate such a blatantly self-contradictory position directly. Rather, they take one stand on one issue, and at a later date they take a contradictory position on the other. They would also be unlikely to explicitly state that they think Islam deserves special exceptions. But in practice, they are a lot more concerned about "tolerance" and "social harmony" when the issue is insults directed at Muslims (and consequent violence), and a lot more concerned about "free speech" when it's Christianity. Naturally they strenuously deny this when you point it out to them, perhaps because they are unaware of their own biases.

Could it be that 'liberal' is a description that runs a wide gamut, and that this is another case of conservative critics choosing obviously contradictory positions actually held by people on different ends of that gamut, rather than by the same individual? Truth is there are a lot of liberals (most, in fact) who are pro-free speech when it comes to offending Christians (and pro-free speech when it comes to offending any religion). There's a few (but not many) who would restrict Koran desecration (and many of these would likely ban desecration of any religious work). I don't know of ANY liberals, personally, who think Islam deserves a special exemption. I'm sure there's a few out there, but no one prominent I've ever heard of, nor anyone I've ever met, has taken this strange stance...


Not all "left-liberals" are hypocrites, no. I'm pretty left on a lot of issues, so don't get the impression that I'm trying to make blanket statements. I'm arguing for more freedom to insult Islam, not less freedom to insult Christianity. But notice that burning the Koran results in a prison sentence in at least one Western nation, as a result of legislation passed by a left-leaning government, whereas considerably more leeway is given to mock and insult Christianity. So these "strange" liberals certainly do exist, no matter how alien they may seem to your moderate self.

I said, if incidents such as the Serrano vandalism can bring this issue to the foreground again, it will be indirectly a good thing.

487 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:27:29am

re: #120 APox

If the worst these people do is slash a painting depicting their deity in piss then I consider even the most extreme to be pretty docile.

I'd wager if someone were to make a 'Piss Muhammad' piece of artwork the artist would be beheaded inside of a year.

Who would we be (non-Muslims, that is), if we examined our own actions as though Islam did not exist?

488 Ojoe  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 6:40:12am

Somebody set vestments on fire in Gaudi's Sagada Familia cathedral in Barcelona the other day.

489 budda10000  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 7:23:40am

Alright, that does it. My Parisian friends can no longer call the US a country full of racist religious ideologues. France seems to be taking the lead with the veil ban and now this.. :))


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