Brunswick County Commissioner: ‘Evolution is a Lie’

The right wing war on science
Wingnuts • Views: 27,376

Across the country, Republicans in state and local governments are pushing hard to destroy environmental protections, destroy women’s rights, prevent gays from having rights, destroy unions, destroy child labor laws, etc. etc. etc.

There’s a parade of right wing atavism going on, the likes of which I’ve never seen. And as part of this massive attempt to roll back all the progress of the last 200 years, Republicans in dozens of states are also working hard to get creationism into public schools. In the past decade the right wing religious fanatics who promote this nonsense tried to hide their true agenda, disguising their creationism as “intelligent design” or “academic freedom.” But in the era of the Tea Party, they’ve completely stopped pretending.

Today’s case in point: Brunswick County, North Carolina, where the county commissioners are pushing to have Biblical creationism taught right alongside evolution, as an equally valid scientific theory: Commissioners push for creationism as curriculum.

Behold the stunning ignorance of the right wing.

Brunswick County Commissioners Chairman Bill Sue and commissioner Scott Phillips think creationism needs to be a part of Brunswick County Schools curriculum, taught right alongside the theory of evolution.

“Darwin started out it was a theory, and by the time he got to the sixth chapter, it was fact,” Sue said Monday at a meeting between county commissioners and school officials. “Every theory that has ever been the basis of evolution has been disproven.”

“And I know I’m not gonna convince you here, but I’m tired of my taxpayers’ dollars going to pay the price to teach our kids a lie in the schools,” he said. “And when you have a teacher who is in a position of authority standing before a class of fifth-, sixth-graders telling them they come from a monkey, it has a traumatic influence and effect on them. And I’m ready to go wherever we need to go to change that lie that’s being taught.”

Phillips asked school officials, “What can we do to get creation taught in our schools along with the theory of evolution?” …

Phillips said evolution and creationism need to be taught in public schools, as children who do not belong to a church community are not being exposed to both. …

Sue said he understood [Superintendent Edward] Pruden could not allow creationism to be taught as a science, but he was going to “find somebody that can take it somewhere, because [evolution] is a lie.”

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258 comments
1 Lidane  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:24:17pm
this massive attempt to roll back all the progress of the last 200 years

You’re being far too generous, Charles. These cretins would turn us back to the feudal Dark Ages if they could find a way to get away with it.

2 calochortus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:24:35pm

Oh good grief. I just don’t have the energy for these morons right now.

3 Political Atheist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:25:45pm

Religious lessons dispensed by the state? No Thanks. That would make home schooling popular for some parents to ensure a properly secular science education. Just to keep creationism out of it.

4 calochortus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:26:42pm

They’re all about parents’ rights until the parents want to teach something they think is wrong.

5 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:27:21pm

“children who do not belong to a church community are not being exposed to both.”

Maybe that’s because their Parents DON’T want their Children exposed to this sort of crap.

moron.

6 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:29:01pm
Sue said he understood [Superintendent Edward] Pruden could not allow creationism to be taught as a science, but he was going to “find somebody that can take it somewhere, because [evolution] is a lie.”

And just how is this anti-reality nonsense going to create jobs for Americans? I mean, we can’t all work at that stupid Ark Park.

7 calochortus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:29:08pm

re: #5 Bubblehead II

I would argue that there aren’t a lot of kids who don’t get exposed to the creation story somewhere along the line before they get out of elementary or middle school. They just aren’t necessarily taught that it is scientific truth. Because it isn’t.

8 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:31:04pm
“Darwin started out it was a theory, and by the time he got to the sixth chapter, it was fact,” Sue said Monday at a meeting between county commissioners and school officials. “Every theory that has ever been the basis of evolution has been disproven.”

Look! A proud, ignorant, dumbfuck in full plumage!

Sigh, this bird is even less welcome than starlings and english sparrows. Thankfully tight flocking and loud calls may actually be an indicator of an effective predator population.

9 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:31:23pm

re: #5 Bubblehead II

That’s the point though. If people won’t bring their children to our churches to get indoctrinated, we will bring our indoctrination to them.

10 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:31:23pm
children who do not belong to a church community are not being exposed to both.

I was exposed to it between the ages of 8-12. My mind just could not accept it.
NEXT!

11 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:31:36pm

re: #5 Bubblehead II

“children who do not belong to a church community are not being exposed to both.”

Maybe that’s because their Parents DON’T want their Children exposed to this sort of crap.

moron.

Not everyone who teaches their children faith at home teaches the same faith. Not everyone who teaches their children faith at home goes to church.

I am all for having world religions taught in social studies. That’s fine. I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here.

12 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:31:46pm

re: #7 calochortus

I am sure they are. But it isn’t the Public/Secular Schools place to teach/promote it.

13 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:31:59pm

re: #6 Slumbering Behemoth

And just how is this anti-reality nonsense going to create jobs for Americans? I mean, we can’t all work at that stupid Ark Park.

But…but…I have my own stripy headdress!!

14 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:32:02pm

Oh goody, nothing like witnessing the slide of your country into religious theocracy to stir the patriotic feelings in oneself.

///nth

15 calochortus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:33:36pm

re: #12 Bubblehead II

I am sure they are. But it isn’t the Public/Secular Schools place to teach/promote it.

Of course not, I merely pointed out that the premise of teaching it because children won’t be exposed otherwise is faulty.

Households don’t get less religious than the one I grew up in and I knew the Christian creation story in elementary school.

16 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:33:54pm

“Darwin started out it was a theory, and by the time he got to the sixth chapter, it was fact,” saith the boy named Sue.

Authoritarian projection again. The creo-liars trash Darwin because they assume everyone else is as reliant on the word of various authorities as they themselves are.

Suppose we discovered a previously unknown paper in which Charles Darwin repudiated everything he said about evolution and confessed that it was all a hoax he had concocted to facilitate illicit sex and make money. Such a discovery would have no affect on the validity of current evolutionary theory but Creo-liars could not even begin to comprehend why it wouldn’t,

17 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:34:08pm

re: #9 Slumbering Behemoth

That’s the point though. If people won’t bring their children to our churches to get indoctrinated, we will bring our indoctrination to them.

I know and that is what pisses me off.

18 elizajane  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:34:14pm

According to this Bill Sue, from the original article:

“And I know I’m not gonna convince you here, but I’m tired of my taxpayers’ dollars going to pay the price to teach our kids a lie in the schools,” he said. “And when you have a teacher who is in a position of authority standing before a class of fifth-, sixth-graders telling them they come from a monkey, it has a traumatic influence and effect on them. And I’m ready to go wherever we need to go to change that lie that’s being taught.”

For what it’s worth, I thought that the Brunswick County reporter who wrote up the article thought that this person was batshit crazy but was trying to present the story fairly.

19 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:34:23pm

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

But…but…I have my own stripy headdress!!

Sorry friend. Though the Ark may be big enough to accommodate just about every living animal on Earth, there just isn’t enough room for you. ;)

20 calochortus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:34:42pm

re: #15 calochortus

*Not to say that I learned in school, just when I was of that age.

21 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:34:43pm

Maybe Misters Sue and Phillips will propose teaching that the Sun and planets evolve around the Earth or that Newton’s three laws of physics aren’t true either. It’s obvious that they have never read Darwin.

22 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:35:09pm
“We can’t teach it is as religious truth in a public school classroom where everybody’s tax money—Jewish people’s tax money, Muslim people’s tax money, atheist’s tax money, agnostic, Methodist, Baptist, and all the rest,” Pruden said. “Everybody pays taxes and everybody’s children goes to the public school, and I don’t think you really want the public school teacher giving religious instruction to your children.”

Sounds like Pruden’s doing the best he can with what who he has to work with.

23 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:35:49pm

#teabilly

24 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:36:01pm

I really wish these people would take a moment or two and learn the difference between a theory like the kind Sherlock Holmes comes up with, and a scientific theory.

For example, gravity is still a theory.

25 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:36:03pm

re: #19 Slumbering Behemoth

Sorry friend. Though the Ark may be big enough to accommodate just about every living animal on Earth, there just isn’t enough room for you. ;)

(Grabs one armadillo, starts running.)

26 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:36:25pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

Not everyone who teaches their children faith at home teaches the same faith. Not everyone who teaches their children faith at home goes to church.

I am all for having world religions taught in social studies. That’s fine. I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here.

No, it’s not. There will be one and only one Religious view point taught and it will be the one that is most widely accepted in the area. All others will be disregarded out of hand.

27 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:36:40pm

re: #25 SanFranciscoZionist

(Grabs one armadillo, starts running.)

Hey! Get back here!
…
Ah, screw it. Let her have it.

28 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:36:49pm

re: #24 jamesfirecat

I really wish these people would take a moment or two and learn the difference between a theory like the kind Sherlock Holmes comes up with, and a scientific theory.

For example, gravity is still a theory.

These were the people making pit farts during lecture. They have no idea what a scientific theory is because they don’t care.

29 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:37:06pm

re: #15 calochortus

Households don’t get less religious than the one I grew up in and I knew the Christian creation story in elementary school.

I dare say that everyone did, regardless of their religion or lack there of.

The problem they have is that you likely learned it as the mythology it is, and not as SCIENCE!

30 elizajane  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:37:19pm

re: #18 elizajane

According to this Bill Sue, from the original article:

“….And I’m ready to go wherever we need to go to change that lie that’s being taught.”

By “change that lie” I am assuming he means undoing the effects of evolution, as that seems to describe the direction he and his cohort are heading in.

31 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:37:25pm

re: #15 calochortus

Gotcha.

32 calochortus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:37:34pm

re: #29 Slumbering Behemoth

Bingo.

33 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:37:56pm

re: #24 jamesfirecat

I really wish these people would take a moment or two and learn the difference between a theory like the kind Sherlock Holmes comes up with, and a scientific theory.

For example, gravity is still a theory.

As I have mentioned before, I was once informed by a solemn group of Catholic middle school kids that what I had just described to them in English class was actually a HYPOTHESIS, not a THEORY.

Science teacher was determined that none of our kids would fall for the ‘it’s only a THEORY’ crap.

34 jaunte  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:38:59pm
“Darwin started out it was a theory,…”

This is not even good English.

35 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:39:20pm

re: #21 HappyWarrior

Maybe Misters Sue and Phillips will propose teaching that the Sun and planets evolve around the Earth or that Newton’s three laws of physics aren’t true either. It’s obvious that they have never read Darwin.

While it is an obvious typo, this sparked a memory. Once I got into an argument with someone claiming that current astrophysics is all a lie, underpinned by the fact that stellar evolution has the word evolution in it.

36 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:40:44pm

re: #35 prononymous

While it is an obvious typo, this sparked a memory. Once I got into an argument with someone claiming that current astrophysics is all a lie, underpinned by the fact that stellar evolution has the word evolution in it.

Stellar soup.
Image: heic1107a.jpg

37 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:40:59pm

re: #35 prononymous

While it is an obvious typo, this sparked a memory. Once I got into an argument with someone claiming that current astrophysics is all a lie, underpinned by the fact that stellar evolution has the word evolution in it.

Really? That’s insane. The only thing I can think of more annoying are preachers who think they’re clever and call it -evil-lution.

38 calochortus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:41:00pm

re: #35 prononymous

Head. Desk.

Well, the sun is shining, a breeze is blowing and I think I’ll round up my husband and go for a walk. I feel confident it will be less stressful than worrying about the willful ignorance of my fellow citizens.

39 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:41:30pm

re: #35 prononymous

While it is an obvious typo, this sparked a memory. Once I got into an argument with someone claiming that current astrophysics is all a lie, underpinned by the fact that stellar evolution has the word evolution in it.

SCA people sometimes encounter folks who believe that the Middle Ages were somehow Satanic, based on the fact that ‘medieval’ sounds like it has ‘evil’ in it.

40 AlexRogan  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:41:35pm

re: #1 Lidane

You’re being far too generous, Charles. These cretins would turn us back to the feudal Dark Ages if they could find a way to get away with it.

Yes, so long as they’re at the top of the heap as lords of the manor…I doubt they’d be comfortable being serfs, like the rest of us.

41 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:41:42pm

re: #36 Varek Raith

Stellar soup.
Image: heic1107a.jpg

APOD and 420 every day, LOL.

43 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:42:33pm

re: #40 talon_262

Yes, so long as they’re at the top of the heap as lords of the manor…I doubt they’d be comfortable being serfs, like the rest of us.

Charlie don’t serf.

44 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:44:24pm

re: #42 Gus 802

Poe’s Law is kicking me in the face. I just can’t tell…

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:44:36pm

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

SCA people sometimes encounter folks who believe that the Middle Ages were somehow Satanic, based on the fact that ‘medieval’ sounds like it has ‘evil’ in it.

Of course, SCA people also like to imagine that we’re much more shocking than we actually are. I recall one event where it turned out we were sharing the campsite with a church revival gathering. (The campsite hadn’t made this clear.)

People were fretting that we would shock the Baptists, but in the morning, in the ladies’ showers, all I heard was “My gosh, you made this? Now, I do quilting, did they do that in the time you study? Are there classes to learn this kind of embroidery? You teach it? Wait, I’ll write down your website right here…”

The dudes thought the armored fighting was neat.

We’re not as alternative as we imagine.

46 AlexRogan  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:45:28pm

re: #43 JasonA

Charlie don’t serf.

He will when we get Guns-A-Go-Go after him ;-P

47 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:45:35pm

re: #44 JasonA

Poe’s Law is kicking me in the face. I just can’t tell…

It’s Edward Currant. ;)

48 researchok  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:45:43pm

re: #42 Gus 802

People Are Not Animals! (and evolution never happened)

[Video]

Gus, see this. Excellent article.

Einstein and Darwin: A tale of two theories

49 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:45:50pm

re: #44 JasonA

Poe’s Law is kicking me in the face. I just can’t tell…

Okay, I can tell now.

50 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:46:16pm

re: #42 Gus 802

Speaking of fairy tales…

Wow. I am constantly amazed at the human capacity for self delusion.

51 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:46:43pm

So, now that we’re presenting creationism alongside evolution as a “competing scientific theory,” shall we next present the Ptolemaic system of the universe against the Galilean system as a “competing scientific theory”? Perhaps start presenting the idea of the humorism against modern medical science, bringing back the idea of blood-letting to solve medical maladies?

Good God, no wonder we’re slowly becoming a joke to the rest of the world. They’re competing with each other to see who’s going to be the next technological leader, while we’re sinking into the Dark Ages.

52 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:47:08pm

re: #1 Lidane

You’re being far too generous, Charles. These cretins would turn us back to the feudal Dark Ages if they could find a way to get away with it.

Holy shit… Scott Phillips is one of those kooky Methodist…

Positions Held:

Boy Scouts of America Executive Board
Local Chapter of the American society of Civil Engineers (Past President)
Brunswick County Economic Development Commission (Past Chairman)
Brunswick County Board of Health (Past Vice-Chairman)
Brunswick County Industrial Facilities Pollution Control Board (Current Chairman)
Pastor of Andrews Chapel United Methodist Church
Partnership for Children’s Board of Directors
Cape Fear Resources Conservation and Development Council
Communities In School Board of Directors

Got to watch out for those radical Methodists… they’re all over the place.

[Link: www.brunswickcountync.gov…]

53 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:47:38pm

Heh…^

54 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:47:42pm

re: #52 Walter L. Newton

Burp.

55 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:48:55pm

re: #49 JasonA

Okay, I can tell now.

Yep. Tis satire. He throws people off sometimes.

56 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:50:04pm

re: #54 Gus 802

Burp.

Ramen noodles giving you trouble again?

57 bluecheese  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:50:19pm

[Link: www.theonion.com…]

very dark

58 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:50:30pm

Repost from last thread!


Sharron Angle is just the top of the psycho pyramid, Angle has a hand shoved up her backside, someone else is operating, she’s not the leader, she’s barely present IMHO

My friends at EVO in Vegas saw her, (and giddily called me up to tell me minutes later) and all Angle’s fundraiser types, because they had events in the same hotels. Body language was such that she was this meek little thing in the wake of all the money

all ancient old biddies with pearls, fat bloated GOP guys in suits who looked like hammered meat, like those DAs in fear and Loathing, fleshy monsters, rich as hell, like Jabba the Hutt, all around Sharron Angle

And they all looked directly at the one hispanic guy in the group when my friend’s group walked through. Looked right at him like he was poison.

59 Political Atheist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:51:31pm

Why does no one point out that school is only 5 days a week, and leaves those days plus those mornings and evenings open for whatever parents want to further teach or show those kids? I never see that argument made.

Let schools be schools, Mon-Fri, and maybe Sunday school be the best for Bible study.

60 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:52:22pm

It’s just an endless parade of ignorant and stupid Republicans. It just doesn’t end.

61 Political Atheist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:52:37pm

re: #59 Rightwingconspirator

Why does no one point out that school is only 5 days a week, and leaves those days plus those mornings and evenings open for whatever parents want to further teach or show those kids? I never see that argument made.

Let schools be schools, Mon-Fri, and maybe Sunday school be the best for Bible study.

PIMF Leaves those weekend days plus…

62 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:52:56pm

re: #59 Rightwingconspirator

Why does no one point out that school is only 5 days a week, and leaves those days plus those mornings and evenings open for whatever parents want to further teach or show those kids? I never see that argument made.

Let schools be schools, Mon-Fri, and maybe Sunday school be the best for Bible study.

Whoa, now, can’t be toleratin that thar logic.
It’s dangerous.
/

63 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:53:53pm

re: #59 Rightwingconspirator

Of course that would be the reasonable thing to do, but unfortunately it also makes it damn near impossible to brainwash children into believing that fairy tales are real.

64 McSpiff  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:54:03pm

re: #59 Rightwingconspirator

Why does no one point out that school is only 5 days a week, and leaves those days plus those mornings and evenings open for whatever parents want to further teach or show those kids? I never see that argument made.

Let schools be schools, Mon-Fri, and maybe Sunday school be the best for Bible study.

Well, I’ve heard the opposite argument made. That schools have such a clear majority of time with kids how can good parents possibly fight the homosexual/AGW/Round Earth agenda being fostered on their good, God fearing offspring?

65 bratwurst  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:54:48pm

Breaking: Senator Ensign to resign!

66 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:55:08pm

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

It’s just an endless parade of ignorant and stupid Republicans. It just doesn’t end.

Without massive changes to how we govern our country, America will continue to be a moron generator for the next hundred years

67 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:55:56pm

re: #66 WindUpBird

Without massive changes to how we govern our country, America will continue to be a moron generator for the next hundred years

I wouldn’t put an upper limit on the timeframe…

68 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:56:48pm

re: #66 WindUpBird

Without massive changes to how we govern our country, America will continue to be a moron generator for the next hundred years

More like…
A few more seconds.
*Pushes red button of DOOM!*
…
..
.
Dammit!

69 AlexRogan  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:57:17pm

re: #65 bratwurst

Breaking: Senator Ensign to resign!

Yeah, that’s what WUB was reposting from downstairs in #58, his reply to my reply to that, which follows in part:

The move could clear the way for Nevada Gov. Brian Sandoval to appoint Rep. Dean Heller to fill Ensign’s seat, giving the GOP congressman the comforts of incumbency and a leg up as he pursues a full term in 2012.
If Heller were appointed to the upper chamber, it would also trigger a special election in Nevada’s 2nd Congressional District, where Sharron Angle and former military commander Kirk Lippold are already in the race.
70 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:57:25pm

re: #59 Rightwingconspirator

Why does no one point out that school is only 5 days a week, and leaves those days plus those mornings and evenings open for whatever parents want to further teach or show those kids? I never see that argument made.

Let schools be schools, Mon-Fri, and maybe Sunday school be the best for Bible study.

Because not all parents are “good, God-fearin’ people,” so the theocrats have decided if they can’t get the kids to come to church, then the church will come to the kids.

71 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 3:59:50pm
Superintendent Edward Pruden said according to the Supreme Court, creationism cannot be taught as a part of the science curriculum in public schools. Where much confusion comes in regarding evolution is the word “theory,” he explained.

“To laypeople by ourselves, [it] sounds unproven. When scientists use it, it’s backed up by repeated observation and study,” he said, noting theories are kept open for future discoveries.

The problem lies in the teaching of language, not science or logic, when such fundamental ignorance could be cleared up simply by opening a dictionary.

72 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:00:21pm

re: #66 WindUpBird

Without massive changes to how we govern our country, America will continue to be a moron generator for the next hundred years

No it won’t. Most of them will die in the eco-collapse they help to bring.

73 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:01:08pm

re: #68 Varek Raith

More like…
A few more seconds.
*Pushes red button of DOOM!*
…
..
.
Dammit!

My sith friend. Honestly, even Palpatine would do a better job than the current GOP. I never, ever thought I would miss the good old days…

74 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:01:44pm

re: #71 Naso Tang

“To laypeople by ourselves, [it] sounds unproven. When scientists use it, it’s backed up by repeated observation and study,” he said, noting theories are kept open for future discoveries.

It doesn’t get more laypeople than me when it comes to science, but I was taught the scientific sense of ‘theory’ repeatedly in science class.

75 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:03:13pm

I realized something today.

I have not been doing enough to piss off teabags. I started arranging to give a bunch of talks at local High Schools about AGW and climate change. Lots and lots of pictures. Let the kiddies bring that back to their GOP parents :)

I’ll also bring up evolution. :)

76 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:03:26pm

re: #52 Walter L. Newton

I have one of those kooky Methodists in my family. Biblical literalist, creationist, science denialist. It never ceases to amaze me that grown folk can be so detached from reality.

77 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:03:41pm

re: #70 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Because not all parents are “good, God-fearin’ people,” so the theocrats have decided if they can’t get the kids to come to church, then the church will come to the kids.

They’re already always complaining about the education system. Now they want to add religion into the mix? To be what? To be taught a quasi religion (creationism) by a bunch of “sekular atheist librul teachers?!” Schools are fine just as they are for the most part (save Texas). People just like to come up with excuses about the bad state of education — which is really a form of projection because they never got one.

78 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:04:42pm

re: #75 LudwigVanQuixote

I realized something today.

I have not been doing enough to piss off teabags. I started arranging to give a bunch of talks at local High Schools about AGW and climate change. Lots and lots of pictures. Let the kiddies bring that back to their GOP parents :)

I’ll also bring up evolution. :)

Sounds good, but do us a favor; don’t scare the shit out of them.

79 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:05:47pm

re: #75 LudwigVanQuixote

If I had money to spare, I’d donate to your cause.

80 AlexRogan  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:06:30pm

re: #75 LudwigVanQuixote

I realized something today.

I have not been doing enough to piss off teabags. I started arranging to give a bunch of talks at local High Schools about AGW and climate change. Lots and lots of pictures. Let the kiddies bring that back to their GOP parents :)

I’ll also bring up evolution. :)

Go get ‘em, tiger!

81 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:06:32pm

re: #71 Naso Tang

The problem lies in the teaching of language, not science or logic, when such fundamental ignorance could be cleared up simply by opening a dictionary.

This is a very good point.

82 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:07:33pm

re: #78 Naso Tang

Sounds good, but do us a favor; don’t scare the shit out of them.

I will simply lay out the facts and the consequences as they are. It had better scare the shit out of them. Don’t worry, I’ll be talking to the upper school kids, not the bobkins.

83 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:08:21pm

re: #74 SanFranciscoZionist

“To laypeople by ourselves, [it] sounds unproven. When scientists use it, it’s backed up by repeated observation and study,” he said, noting theories are kept open for future discoveries.

It doesn’t get more laypeople than me when it comes to science, but I was taught the scientific sense of ‘theory’ repeatedly in science class.

Could you do me a giant favor for my own erudition and please tell me what that definition is?

84 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:08:34pm

re: #78 Naso Tang

Sounds good, but do us a favor; don’t scare the shit out of them.

It’s hard not to be scared when you understand what the ultimate consequences of AGW may be. Reality is sometimes scary.

85 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:08:52pm

re: #74 SanFranciscoZionist

And you know I adore you. This is not a hidden attack.

86 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:10:00pm

re: #82 LudwigVanQuixote

I will simply lay out the facts and the consequences as they are. It had better scare the shit out of them. Don’t worry, I’ll be talking to the upper school kids, not the bobkins.

Kids of all ages get suicidal if they think there’s no future, or a horrible future ahead of them. Focus on what is doable, not the worst case scenarios.

87 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:10:01pm

re: #85 LudwigVanQuixote

And you know I adore you. This is not a hidden attack.

Does Miss S. know all about your lizard girlfriends? (I don’t include myself because I am your lizard Mom)

88 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:10:23pm

Are you smarter than a middle schooler? New site tracks science misconceptions

Pop quiz: True or false?

• The different cell types found in a given individual’s body contain different DNA.

• Mountains form by the piling up of pieces of rock.

• Some living parts of organisms are not made of cells.

More than half of the thousands of middle and high school students tested in nationwide examinations think the above statements are true (58 percent, 52 percent and 75 percent, respectively). They are not. Also false: Earth’s plates are under the surface and are not visible (49 percent of students think is true); and air is carried through the body in “air tubes” (43 percent).

Expelling these common misconceptions is key to improving overall scientific literacy. But trying to root out just where misconceptions lie can be a tricky part of the job for already busy teachers. “It becomes more difficult to teach students without actually addressing the misconception,” Anu Malipatil, a charter school administrator in New York and Connecticut, said in a prepared statement.

We have enough problems in our education system without these theocratic goons trying to shoehorn their version of a deity into science classes.

89 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:10:27pm

re: #77 Gus 802

They’re already always complaining about the education system. Now they want to add religion into the mix? To be what? To be taught a quasi religion (creationism) by a bunch of “sekular atheist librul teachers?!” Schools are fine just as they are for the most part (save Texas). People just like to come up with excuses about the bad state of education — which is really a form of projection because they never got one.

It’s part of the reason they’re trying so hard to kill traditional public schools, either through voucher programs or just outright. They don’t like the idea of them there “libruls” teaching kids things like evolution and climate change, so they want to open the doors for fellow loonies to put their kids into schools where they can be paid to brainwash them thoroughly.

90 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:12:36pm

re: #86 wrenchwench

Kids of all ages get suicidal if they think there’s no future, or a horrible future ahead of them. Focus on what is doable, not the worst case scenarios.

What is doable is limiting the world to a 3 degree rise at this point. It will be very difficult and many millions will be homeless and starving as a result.

The alternative is much much worse.

I will tell them that they can save America. That is the truth.

I will tell them that if we fail to change course they will see their children die terribly. That is also the truth.

91 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:13:13pm

re: #86 wrenchwench

Kids of all ages get suicidal if they think there’s no future, or a horrible future ahead of them. Focus on what is doable, not the worst case scenarios.

In short, I will not lie to them.

92 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:13:51pm

re: #89 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It’s part of the reason they’re trying so hard to kill traditional public schools, either through voucher programs or just outright. They don’t like the idea of them there “libruls” teaching kids things like evolution and climate change, so they want to open the doors for fellow loonies to put their kids into schools where they can be paid to brainwash them thoroughly.

Are these vouchers only good for schools teaching “conservative science?” They couldn’t be used for Montessori type schools, technical and trade type schools, performing arts schools?

93 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:14:17pm

re: #87 Alouette

Does Miss S. know all about your lizard girlfriends? (I don’t include myself because I am your lizard Mom)

Yes she does. Fortunately, she is not afraid of me flying to San Fran to seduce a married woman, no matter how awesome I think she is.

And lol yes, yes you are.

94 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:15:43pm

re: #91 LudwigVanQuixote

I think the concern is that you give them hope, rather than have them feel that things are hopeless. Just a guess.

95 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:16:22pm

re: #89 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It’s part of the reason they’re trying so hard to kill traditional public schools, either through voucher programs or just outright. They don’t like the idea of them there “libruls” teaching kids things like evolution and climate change, so they want to open the doors for fellow loonies to put their kids into schools where they can be paid to brainwash them thoroughly.

Was thinking. You probably couldn’t even throw “just any” Christian into the mix either. Or a Catholic. If it’s not Free Market Jesus, Conservapedia Gospel or Rambo God the wingnuts wouldn’t approve. Especially if they ever start talking about “turning the other cheek” and “social justice eleventy”! That’s how indoctrinated these people have become. Jesus Camp mentality.

96 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:16:48pm

re: #91 LudwigVanQuixote

In short, I will not lie to them.

Don’t look for a lot of return invitations.

97 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:17:05pm

re: #90 LudwigVanQuixote


Elaboration:


What is doable is limiting the world to a 3 degree rise at this point. It will be very difficult and many millions will be homeless and starving as a result of the three degree rise. The time where we could have avoided major difficulties meant starting action 15-20 years ago. W. made certain that never had a chance of happening.

That more than the lies to start the Iraq war or his hapless mismanagement of his office will be what condemns him the most to future historians.

The alternative to limiting things to a 3 degree world is much, much worse.

I will tell them that they can save America. That is the truth.

I will tell them that if we fail to change course they will see their children die terribly. That is also the truth.

98 HoosierHoops  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:17:10pm

re: #90 LudwigVanQuixote

Hi Ludwig! long time no see..
What does 3 degrees mean globally? How does that work out for mankind? I don’t understand the math..
Hope today finds you well

99 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:17:31pm

re: #96 wrenchwench

Don’t look for a lot of return invitations.

You would be surprised. I have the titles and cred to pull off a lot.

100 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:19:18pm
Today’s case in point: Brunswick County, North Carolina, where the county commissioners are pushing to have Biblical creationism taught right alongside evolution,

Wonderful. This is the state where I will probably be student-teaching geology to college freshmen next year.

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:19:27pm

re: #83 LudwigVanQuixote

Could you do me a giant favor for my own erudition and please tell me what that definition is?

Stage fright!

As we were taught it, that a theory is a model or explanation based on observation, that incorporates available information, that stands up to testing, or continued observation. It’s what a group of hypotheses grow up to be if they doesn’t get disproven or turn out to be inadequate in some way.

Please recall, this is what I remember from biology class twenty years ago, so God knows if the teaching got through correctly.

102 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:19:32pm

re: #99 LudwigVanQuixote

You would be surprised. I have the titles and cred to pull off a lot.

Titles and cred mean shit if you create a lot of depressed kids at a school.

And the administration won’t be impressed when you bring Bush and Iraq into an AGW discussion.

103 Robert O.  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:20:45pm

I don’t think I can ever recall a period of time when the country has gone backwards at such an alarming rate. The Bush era had numerous regressive policies, such as going back on Kyoto, ABM Treaty, cutting federal funding for stem cell research, and passing tax cuts to the rich that should have been used to pay for the wars and the deficit. But nowhere did Bush tried to abolish the EPA, child labor laws, teachers unions; and on right-wing hot-button issues like abortions and creationism, Bush basically did nothing. The current radical right is something else altogether. Bush has been rendered into an FDR. And each time I thought I had seen enough from the right, they amaze me with yet more crazy policies, completely devoid of reality.

104 APox  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:21:20pm

re: #102 wrenchwench

Titles and cred mean shit if you create a lot of depressed kids at a school.

And the administration won’t be impressed when you bring Bush and Iraq into an AGW discussion.

Sure they will, public school teachers are all super leftist socialists!

/

105 darthstar  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:21:49pm

When the County Commissioner goes to the doctor for a checkup, the doctor should recommend a leeches, and if that doesn’t work, a good bleeding to rid the body of any demons.

106 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:23:13pm

re: #105 darthstar

When the County Commissioner goes to the doctor for a checkup, the doctor should recommend a leeches, and if that doesn’t work, a good bleeding to rid the body of any demons.

Nothing that a drill and a good hole in the head couldn’t fix.

/

107 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:23:27pm

re: #98 HoosierHoops

Hi Ludwig! long time no see..
What does 3 degrees mean globally? How does that work out for mankind? I don’t understand the math..
Hope today finds you well

Short form is that it means a large loss of fresh water in threatened areas that depend on melt waters and a very sharp reduction in global food production resulting in hundreds of millions without adequate food or water under present systems.

There will be large migrations from the American South West.

There will be a reduction in American food production that will cut out exports of grain and foodstuffs significantly.

Low lying places like Bangladesh will be very severely hit with flooding.

Storms that were considered very large will be much more common place. Expect a Katrina every 3-5 years. Monsoons will be horrific. People in flood plains will eventually have to move or die in Asia.

Disease vectors will spread and numerous places in Africa and Latin America will become nightmarish.

Europe and America will have regular heat-waves (sustained temps above 100 -105 degrees F) that kill the elderly and infants - particular amongst the poor.

Canada will become a new breadbasket.

108 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:24:14pm

re: #102 wrenchwench

Titles and cred mean shit if you create a lot of depressed kids at a school.

And the administration won’t be impressed when you bring Bush and Iraq into an AGW discussion.

I was not going to bring Bush in. Just the science. Ohh and some clips of Thatcher’s take on it.

109 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:25:08pm

I’m starting to feel like I’ve been ripped off. Where the hell were all these liberal teachers when I was in high school? Sneaking off to spark a “J” was always a pain in the ass.

110 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:25:57pm

re: #97 LudwigVanQuixote

What is doable is limiting the world to a 3 degree rise at this point. It will be very difficult and many millions will be homeless and starving as a result of the three degree rise. The time where we could have avoided major difficulties meant starting action 15-20 years ago. W. made certain that never had a chance of happening.

That more than the lies to start the Iraq war or his hapless mismanagement of his office will be what condemns him the most to future historians.

That may well result in the utter discrediting of democracy as a means of governance. There is no guarantee that liberal democracy is the final word in political systems, and if it cannot be shown that it is responsive to a crisis that threatens civilization, then other means of political authority will arise to deal with the situation.

111 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:26:15pm

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

Are these vouchers only good for schools teaching “conservative science?” They couldn’t be used for Montessori type schools, technical and trade type schools, performing arts schools?

Oh, you can be sure there will be a list of schools where these vouchers will not be good for. I mean, can’t have tax dollars going to a madrassa, after all.

/

112 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:26:54pm

re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist

Stage fright!

As we were taught it, that a theory is a model or explanation based on observation, that incorporates available information, that stands up to testing, or continued observation. It’s what a group of hypotheses grow up to be if they doesn’t get disproven or turn out to be inadequate in some way.

Please recall, this is what I remember from biology class twenty years ago, so God knows if the teaching got through correctly.

That isn’t bad.

:)

I would say that a theory is a predictive, falsifiable, model of the physical world which incorporates all available observations. It is an hypothesis that has been shown to be correct through verification of its predictions to a standard vastly more stringent than any standard of proof in a court of law.

An example of a successful theory is “The Earth is round.”

113 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:27:03pm

re: #108 LudwigVanQuixote

I was not going to bring Bush in. Just the science. Ohh and some clips of Thatcher’s take on it.

I quote from #97:

The time where we could have avoided major difficulties meant starting action 15-20 years ago. W. made certain that never had a chance of happening.

I believe “W” indicates George W. Bush?

114 darthstar  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:27:10pm

re: #109 Slumbering Behemoth

Sneaking off to spark a “J” was always a pain in the ass.


Yes, but it was always worth the effort.

115 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:27:19pm

re: #111 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Oh, you can be sure there will be a list of schools where these vouchers will not be good for. I mean, can’t have tax dollars going to a madrassa, after all.

/

So… this is your sarcastic opinion, not fact?

116 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:27:26pm

re: #106 Gus 802

Nothing that a drill and a good hole in the head couldn’t fix.

/

You mean a good case of trepanning?

Mr Sue could use it.

117 Political Atheist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:27:34pm

re: #64 McSpiff

They lie. It’s bull. A little less TV and game time opens up all kinds of quality teaching moments.

118 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:27:45pm

So they’re scared to teach them evolution. Scared to teach them the true history of the American Indians and the colonist invasion. Scared to teach them about gay, lesbians and transfolk. Scared to teach them about sex education. Scared to teach them about the big bang. What else are they scared of?

119 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:28:14pm
…when you have a teacher who is in a position of authority standing before a class of fifth-, sixth-graders telling them they come from a monkey, it has a traumatic influence and effect on them.

Right.

But telling a fifth grader that if he breaks the wrong religious rule he’ll spend all of eternity being horribly tortured by demons … well, that just builds character.

120 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:28:30pm

re: #110 celticdragon

That may well result in the utter discrediting of democracy as a means of governance. There is no guarantee that liberal democracy is the final word in political systems, and if it cannot be shown that it is responsive to a crisis that threatens civilization, then other means of political authority will arise to deal with the situation.

Great, now I’m becoming suicidal…

/

121 BongCrodny  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:28:32pm

re: #98 HoosierHoops

Hi Ludwig! long time no see..
What does 3 degrees mean globally? How does that work out for mankind? I don’t understand the math..
Hope today finds you well


This might be a good time to haul out the “Six Degrees of Annihilation” videos.


Six Degrees Warmer…

122 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:28:55pm

re: #118 Gus 802

So they’re scared to teach them evolution. Scared to teach them the true history of the American Indians and the colonist invasion. Scared to teach them about gay, lesbians and transfolk. Scared to teach them about sex education. Scared to teach them about the big bang. What else are they scared of?

controversial literature? Remember these are the same people often that champion the banning of certain books.

123 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:28:57pm

re: #118 Gus 802

So they’re scared to teach them evolution. Scared to teach them the true history of the American Indians and the colonist invasion. Scared to teach them about gay, lesbians and transfolk. Scared to teach them about sex education. Scared to teach them about the big bang. What else are they scared of?

They are scared of the va-jay-jay. Just ask the Florida Legislature.

124 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:29:46pm

re: #119 Charles

Right.

But telling a fifth grader that if he breaks the wrong religious rule he’ll spend all of eternity being horribly tortured by demons … well, that just builds character.

They call it “witnessing”.

125 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:29:59pm

re: #110 celticdragon

Old-fashioned fascism will take it away?
/

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:30:03pm

re: #118 Gus 802

So they’re scared to teach them evolution. Scared to teach them the true history of the American Indians and the colonist invasion. Scared to teach them about gay, lesbians and transfolk. Scared to teach them about sex education. Scared to teach them about the big bang. What else are they scared of?

Children.

127 darthstar  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:30:22pm

re: #119 Charles

Right.

But telling a fifth grader that if he breaks the wrong religious rule he’ll spend all of eternity being horribly tortured by demons … well, that just builds character.

Just don’t diss God’s kid. You do that, and it’s eternal hell fire. All it takes is a little ass-kissing before you die, and you’re home free.

128 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:31:11pm

re: #119 Charles

Right.

But telling a fifth grader that if he breaks the wrong religious rule he’ll spend all of eternity being horribly tortured by demons … well, that just builds character.

Ain’t that the truth. For me if someone believes in creationism when they die, well, they just die like everyone else and cease to exist. But with some of this crowd, if I believe in evolution (bad enough I’m an atheist) I will burn in hell not for 100 years but for billions upon billions of years while being poked with a red hot poker. Whew.

129 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:32:44pm

re: #118 Gus 802

What else are they scared of?

Losing the over-privileged status that they have grown accustomed to.

130 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:32:44pm

re: #119 Charles

Right.

But telling a fifth grader that if he breaks the wrong religious rule he’ll spend all of eternity being horribly tortured by demons … well, that just builds character.

I wonder how many seven year olds, besides me and Joyce K., thought, “If I could just die right after my first confession and Holy Communion, I’d be guaranteed to go to heaven!” Good thing suicide had already been described as a mortal sin.

131 Political Atheist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:32:50pm

re: #70 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
You are probably right there.
Screw ‘em. My Buddhist/agnostic/whatever kid need not be hijacked by the local church at his public school.

132 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:32:52pm

That’s pretty extreme you know. “Eternal damnation”. Being tortured for eternity. It’s a rather sadistic concept.

133 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:33:08pm

To be fair, I don’t think those teaching creation are going to be teaching consequences of not believing in God or Christianity but that quote does show a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is. Evolutionary theory states that us and the monkeys share an ancestor. I have a fourth grader brother. I don’t see that traumatizing him and his friends. 4th and 5th graders are kids but they’re not fragile little beings who can’t think for themselves.

134 BongCrodny  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:33:27pm

re: #132 Gus 802

That’s pretty extreme you know. “Eternal damnation”. Being tortured for eternity. It’s a rather sadistic concept.


…but He loves you!

135 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:33:49pm

re: #134 BongCrodny

…but He loves you!

Where’s that drill?

//

136 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:34:24pm

re: #132 Gus 802

That’s pretty extreme you know. “Eternal damnation”. Being tortured for eternity. It’s a rather sadistic concept.

Here we go.

137 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:34:31pm

re: #119 Charles

Child abuse.

138 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:34:38pm

re: #108 LudwigVanQuixote

I was not going to bring Bush in. Just the science. Ohh and some clips of Thatcher’s take on it.

You want them to get it, bring IR cameras, stack some filters and SHOW them the absorption bands at 1200, 1400, & 2000 nm. Bring in a LNG cooled FLIR thermal band camera and show them the thermal band absorption. Fill balloons or plastic bottles with CO2 and have them pick out the opaque ones. Attach thermometers to the bottles, give them real time telemetry that proves why what they’re seeing is important.

Go Mr. Wizard on them, let them see what’s going on with their own eyes. Jesus fuckin’ Christ I can’t believe this even needs to be said: Kids don’t give a shit about Margaret Thatcher!!!

139 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:34:51pm

re: #128 Gus 802

Ain’t that the truth. For me if someone believes in creationism when they die, well, they just die like everyone else and cease to exist. But with some of this crowd, if I believe in evolution (bad enough I’m an atheist) I will burn in hell not for 100 years but for billions upon billions of years while being poked with a red hot poker. Whew.

Around the time I became a parent, I really began to understand how utterly idiotic the entire notion of God the father sending untold billions of His children to suffer in unspeakable torment over how they failed to read or interpret an insanely difficult book that He allegedly inspired humans to write and collate without any errors at all.


Yeah…that sounds about right for how I raise my kid…
//

140 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:35:01pm

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

Here we go.

Yep. Here we go with Walter and his solo peanut gallery routine.

141 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:35:17pm

re: #132 Gus 802

That’s pretty extreme you know. “Eternal damnation”. Being tortured for eternity. It’s a rather sadistic concept.

Yeah. I take it back, Ludwig. Go ahead and tell ‘em that they’re going to see their children die terribly. It’s no worse than the other stuff they’re taught.

142 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:35:26pm

re: #132 Gus 802

That’s pretty extreme you know. “Eternal damnation”. Being tortured for eternity. It’s a rather sadistic concept.

The problem that I always had in the back of my head about being a Christian, is that infinite suffering can’t possibly be considered a “fair” punishment for a finite life of sin, no matter how horrific….

143 BongCrodny  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:36:01pm

The only problem with not believing in heaven and hell is that once everybody dies you don’t get to go “See? I TOLD you!”

144 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:36:17pm

re: #132 Gus 802

That’s probably why some folk like it so much.

145 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:36:26pm

re: #138 goddamnedfrank

You want them to get it, bring IR cameras, stack some filters and SHOW them the absorption bands at 1200, 1400, & 2000 nm. Bring in a LNG cooled FLIR thermal band camera and show them the thermal band absorption. Fill balloons or plastic bottles with CO2 and have them pick out the opaque ones. Attach thermometers to the bottles, give them real time telemetry that proves why what they’re seeing is important.

Go Mr. Wizard on them, let them see what’s going on with their own eyes. Jesus fuckin’ Christ I can’t believe this even needs to be said: Kids don’t give a shit about Margaret Thatcher!!!

You sound like you’ve had some good teachers, and some experience with kids.

146 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:36:59pm

re: #111 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Oh, you can be sure there will be a list of schools where these vouchers will not be good for. I mean, can’t have tax dollars going to a madrassa, after all.

/

I don’t think so. Any school recognized by the state will be good, and recognition varies by state I believe. Of course that doesn’t mean the voucher will be enough to cover all school costs. They don’t have to accept them, so if the parent can’t afford the difference, which is unlikely, they won’t be able to pick any school they want. What will happen is that people will set up schools that are designed for these vouchers, with low overheads, and maximized profit (or maximized indoctrination).

Bottom line, give up on public schools and spend some of the money on schools that don’t need annoying oversight and meddling teacher unions.

147 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:37:27pm

re: #132 Gus 802

That’s pretty extreme you know. “Eternal damnation”. Being tortured for eternity. It’s a rather sadistic concept.

It’s a feature. You get to gloat over the Mooslims, Hindoos and unrepentant Joos for all eternity while they burn with gasoline knickers.
//

148 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:37:58pm

re: #115 Walter L. Newton

So… this is your sarcastic opinion, not fact?

Eh, to some level of degree, yes. My experience when talking to a person pushing the idea of vouchers is they don’t like the idea that their kids are being “brain-washed” on the dime, but think they should have the “choice” of who is doing the washing.

149 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:39:52pm

re: #132 Gus 802

That’s pretty extreme you know. “Eternal damnation”. Being tortured for eternity. It’s a rather sadistic concept.

Uhh, did you forget a sarc or did you just start thinking about this?

150 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:40:53pm

re: #149 Naso Tang

Uhh, did you forget a sarc or did you just start thinking about this?

Start at #119 and go from there.

151 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:41:06pm

WEEE!!!

152 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:42:20pm

re: #150 Gus 802

Start at #119 and go from there.

OK. I took a potty break somewhere there.

153 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:42:24pm

re: #148 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Eh, to some level of degree, yes. My experience when talking to a person pushing the idea of vouchers is they don’t like the idea that their kids are being “brain-washed” on the dime, but think they should have the “choice” of who is doing the washing.

Well, I like the idea that I could send my kid to a school for performing arts partly with a voucher… I wonder what brain-washed terrible teaching the kid would get there?

I have no problems with helping parents and children to target an education that will do them better then what they possibly could get in certain public schools.

154 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:42:43pm

re: #152 Naso Tang

OK. I took a potty break somewhere there.

Roger. Copy. Over.

155 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:43:08pm

re: #146 Naso Tang

I don’t think so. Any school recognized by the state will be good, and recognition varies by state I believe. Of course that doesn’t mean the voucher will be enough to cover all school costs. They don’t have to accept them, so if the parent can’t afford the difference, which is unlikely, they won’t be able to pick any school they want. What will happen is that people will set up schools that are designed for these vouchers, with low overheads, and maximized profit (or maximized indoctrination).

Bottom line, give up on public schools and spend some of the money on schools that don’t need annoying oversight and meddling teacher unions.

“Annoying” oversight? I’d rather have schools taught to the same standard than gambling that two students are getting the equivalent level of education. I don’t like the idea of public schools lowering standards in order to raise graduation rates, but I like even less the idea of tax dollars going to privately-run “diploma mills.”

156 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:43:17pm

Fox Nation is outrageously outraged….
Indoctrination? Elementary Students Sing ‘Boycott Big Business’ Song

Youtube Video
157 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:43:37pm
Kids don’t give a shit about Margaret Thatcher!!!

That oughta rotate.

Can rotating titles be in italics?

158 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:44:12pm

re: #153 Walter L. Newton

Well, I like the idea that I could send my kid to a school for performing arts partly with a voucher… I wonder what brain-washed terrible teaching the kid would get there?

I have no problems with helping parents and children to target an education that will do them better then what they possibly could get in certain public schools.

And what stops you now from sending your offspring to a performing arts school that will be fixed by vouchers?

159 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:44:23pm

re: #65 bratwurst

Breaking: Senator Ensign to resign!

Yet another Republican falls victim to the Curse of the Appalachian Trail.

160 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:45:04pm

re: #138 goddamnedfrank

You want them to get it, bring IR cameras, stack some filters and SHOW them the absorption bands at 1200, 1400, & 2000 nm. Bring in a LNG cooled FLIR thermal band camera and show them the thermal band absorption. Fill balloons or plastic bottles with CO2 and have them pick out the opaque ones. Attach thermometers to the bottles, give them real time telemetry that proves why what they’re seeing is important.

Go Mr. Wizard on them, let them see what’s going on with their own eyes. Jesus fuckin’ Christ I can’t believe this even needs to be said: Kids don’t give a shit about Margaret Thatcher!!!

But…but…she stood at the entrance to the Tower Colliery Mine with a Bren gun and shot down the traitorous Communist union miners while carrying the Union Jack and Ronald Reagan’s college football!

I read about it on the internet! It must be true!!!

161 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:45:08pm

Bill Sue wants religion taught in science class? I agree, but not for the reason he thinks:

Youtube Video

Philosopher Dan Dennett calls for religion — all religion — to be taught in schools, so we can understand its nature as a natural phenomenon. Then he takes on [Pastor Rick Warren’s] The Purpose-Driven Life, disputing its claim that, to be moral, one must deny evolution.

162 Eclectic Cyborg  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:45:20pm

re: #9 Slumbering Behemoth

That’s the point though. If people won’t bring their children to our churches to get indoctrinated, we will bring our indoctrination to them.

Remember kids, indoctrination is only evil when Liberals do it. When Conservatives do it, it’s called “Patriotism”.

163 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:46:07pm

re: #158 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And what stops you now from sending your offspring to a performing arts school that will be fixed by vouchers?

Your implication is that vouchers will be used to send kids to certain schools to be brain-washed… I’m postulating that vouchers have a much more varied use… that’s all. Your implication was that they will serve only the good of far-right conservatives. I don’t agree.

164 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:47:00pm

re: #146 Naso Tang

I don’t think so. Any school recognized by the state will be good, and recognition varies by state I believe. Of course that doesn’t mean the voucher will be enough to cover all school costs. They don’t have to accept them, so if the parent can’t afford the difference, which is unlikely, they won’t be able to pick any school they want. What will happen is that people will set up schools that are designed for these vouchers, with low overheads, and maximized profit (or maximized indoctrination).

Bottom line, give up on public schools and spend some of the money on schools that don’t need annoying oversight and meddling teacher unions.

Uh…yeah…

Who needs oversight? The invisible hand of the marketplace will take care of quality, right?
//

165 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:47:14pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

Fox Nation is outrageously outraged…
Indoctrination? Elementary Students Sing ‘Boycott Big Business’ Song

[Video]

Singing about protecting the environment. How terrible! Jeez, the people at Fox Nation are babies. They act like big business should be immune from any criticism.

166 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:48:29pm

man, thank God I got art to give me peace in this world, because shit just seems to be going sideways in America

167 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:48:34pm

re: #157 wrenchwench

Kids don’t give a shit about Margaret Thatcher!!!

Unless she’s on the cover of an Iron Maiden album.

/Heh, today’s kids probably don’t give a shit about Iron Maiden either.

168 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:49:00pm

re: #165 HappyWarrior

Singing about protecting the environment. How terrible! Jeez, the people at Fox Nation are babies. They act like big business should be immune from any criticism.

I’m sure BP is really sweating a possible boycott from 5th graders.

169 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:49:11pm

re: #159 Shiplord Kirel

Yet another Republican falls victim to the Curse of the Appalachian Trail.

He was hiking with a wide stance and a college age page carrying his luggage, no doubt.

170 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:49:29pm

re: #163 Walter L. Newton

Your implication is that vouchers will be used to send kids to certain schools to be brain-washed… I’m postulating that vouchers have a much more varied use… that’s all. Your implication was that they will serve only the good of far-right conservatives. I don’t agree.

My point is that the majority of the folks I’ve heard pushing the vouchers idea are conservative, to one degree or another. And one of their regular points is they don’t like that their kids are being “brainwashed” in public schools with “their” tax dollars. So far, the whole “give me some choices” argument makes no sense because the same schools that folks can’t afford to send their kids to now will not suddenly become any more accessible with vouchers.

171 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:49:32pm

We already have religious and technical/trade schools. I’m all for more diversity and choice in the educational path. But we don’t need vouchers to get there.

172 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:49:59pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

Fox Nation is outrageously outraged…
Indoctrination? Elementary Students Sing ‘Boycott Big Business’ Song

[Video]

They don’t say “boycott big business”. They say something about boycotting when they see a particular business engaged in poor environmental practices. It’s not a big sweeping call as the title suggests. Not even close.

173 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:51:09pm

re: #172 Gus 802

It’s not a big sweeping call as the title suggests. Not even close.

That’s never stopped Fox News before. Why should it now?

175 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:52:22pm

I want to know why we shouldn’t protect the environment? Clean air helps everyone. I want my descendants to be able to enjoy the same ocean I have. If that makes me a Marxist treehugger so be it, these Big Business pimps can go fuck themselves.

176 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:52:38pm

re: #172 Gus 802

They don’t say “boycott big business”. They say something about boycotting when they see a particular business engaged in poor environmental practices. It’s not a big sweeping call as the title suggests. Not even close.

That won’t stop the peroxide morning blondes and Steve “two sandwiches short of a picnic” Doocey from getting a case of outrageous outrage.

177 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:52:39pm

re: #170 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

My point is that the majority of the folks I’ve heard pushing the vouchers idea are conservative, to one degree or another. And one of their regular points is they don’t like that their kids are being “brainwashed” in public schools with “their” tax dollars. So far, the whole “give me some choices” argument makes no sense because the same schools that folks can’t afford to send their kids to now will not suddenly become any more accessible with vouchers.

Sure… if I can’t afford to send Johnny to the Blah Blah School of Performing Arts, then a voucher certainly isn’t going to help offset any of the cost and possibly make it affordable to me… you learn your math in public school?

178 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:52:55pm

re: #155 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

“Annoying” oversight? I’d rather have schools taught to the same standard than gambling that two students are getting the equivalent level of education. I don’t like the idea of public schools lowering standards in order to raise graduation rates, but I like even less the idea of tax dollars going to privately-run “diploma mills.”

I was being sarcastic and realistic. Vouchers are the stealth way to defund public education and eventually do away with it, as is stated very clearly by many Republicans. The bit about getting rid of another major public employee union eventually is probably icing on the cake.

The problem with some public schools is dysfunctional families, not bad teachers.

179 Stanley Sea  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:53:21pm

re: #173 Slumbering Behemoth

That’s never stopped Fox News before. Why should it now?

Remember the student’s suicide? Gah, that is still freaking me out that they tried to tie it to POTUS.

180 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:53:57pm

re: #138 goddamnedfrank

You want them to get it, bring IR cameras, stack some filters and SHOW them the absorption bands at 1200, 1400, & 2000 nm. Bring in a LNG cooled FLIR thermal band camera and show them the thermal band absorption. Fill balloons or plastic bottles with CO2 and have them pick out the opaque ones. Attach thermometers to the bottles, give them real time telemetry that proves why what they’re seeing is important.

Go Mr. Wizard on them, let them see what’s going on with their own eyes. Jesus fuckin’ Christ I can’t believe this even needs to be said: Kids don’t give a shit about Margaret Thatcher!!!

Yes! Show them the science in a fun way as frank here describes. Also, maybe dissolve some diatom frustules, clam shells, or coral skeletons in carbonic acid. There are plenty of real world, if not hands-on, ways to get kids interested in the real world.

181 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:53:59pm

re: #179 Stanley Sea

WHAT?!?! I don’t recall that one.

182 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:54:48pm

re: #178 Naso Tang

I was being sarcastic and realistic. Vouchers are the stealth way to defund public education and eventually do away with it, as is stated very clearly by many Republicans. The bit about getting rid of another major public employee union eventually is probably icing on the cake.

The problem with some public schools is dysfunctional families, not bad teachers.

True enough. If you are worried about bad teachers, introduce peer review. Trying to sort out who is who through test scores means that nobody in their fucking right mind will ever work in an inner city school.

183 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:55:04pm

Time to post this again, in case any fundamentalists are reading (but I doubt it.)

Lorenzago di Cadore, Jul 26, 2007 / 09:52 am (CNA).- The debate between creationism and evolution is an “absurdity” since evolution can coexist with faith, said Pope Benedict XVI this week while vacationing in the mountains of northern Italy.

While there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory cannot exclude a role by God, he said according to MSNBC News.

“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the Pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”

However, evolution does not answer all of the great philosophical questions, he said, including: Where does everything come from?

The Pope’s comments came during a question and answer session with a group of 400 priests, deacons, and seminarians from the region where he is vacationing. In his responses he also spoke about the need to care for the Earth. He urged people to listen to “the voice of the Earth” or risk destroying its very existence.

Link…

184 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:55:35pm

re: #166 WindUpBird

man, thank God I got art to give me peace in this world, because shit just seems to be going sideways in America

Hah. We just live in interesting times.

185 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:55:53pm

re: #179 Stanley Sea

Remember the student’s suicide? Gah, that is still freaking me out that they tried to tie it to POTUS.

Nothing surprises me at this point. We are now in a period where empirical reality is post-constructionist.

186 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:56:15pm

re: #183 Ojoe

Yeah, but they are damned papists.//

187 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:56:28pm

re: #184 SanFranciscoZionist

I bet all times have been interesting.

188 Stanley Sea  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:56:42pm

re: #181 Slumbering Behemoth

WHAT?!?! I don’t recall that one.

[Link: www.google.com…]

Absolutely disgusting.

189 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:56:47pm

re: #172 Gus 802

They don’t say “boycott big business”. They say something about boycotting when they see a particular business engaged in poor environmental practices. It’s not a big sweeping call as the title suggests. Not even close.

That makes more sense.

190 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:57:11pm

re: #177 Walter L. Newton

Sure… if I can’t afford to send Johnny to the Blah Blah School of Performing Arts, then a voucher certainly isn’t going to help offset any of the cost and possibly make it affordable to me… you learn your math in public school?

Yeah, I also learned the idea of “haves and have nots.” Part of the reason that performing arts school is doing so well is that its price tag keeps it out of the reach of the have nots, same as admission boards. You start cutting vouchers for the have nots, the school’s going to raise its tuition, to keep itself out of their reach.

At the same time, all those parents who now have vouchers in hand are going to think the same thing: “Now I can afford to send Junior to the best schools in the city!” So, between the price tag, the admissions, and the competition, you’re no closer to putting little Johnny in that performing arts school than you were before vouchers.

191 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:57:37pm

re: #187 Ojoe

I bet all times have been interesting.

I cannot think of an analogue to our situation where a major world power deliberately and knowingly committed intellectual suicide.

192 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:57:42pm

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

That makes more sense.

Hey and don’t forget. The right never calls for boycotts. Nope. Never.

//

193 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:58:00pm

re: #178 Naso Tang

I was being sarcastic and realistic. Vouchers are the stealth way to defund public education and eventually do away with it, as is stated very clearly by many Republicans. The bit about getting rid of another major public employee union eventually is probably icing on the cake.

The problem with some public schools is dysfunctional families, not bad teachers.

Ah, a thousand apologies. Sometimes my sarcasm detector gives false readings. Stupid Soviet-era technology!

194 Stanley Sea  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:58:03pm

re: #188 Stanley Sea

[Link: www.google.com…]

Absolutely disgusting.

GWU officials tell Fox that police were notified about the incident around 2pm, which happens to be at the same time that President Obama was speaking. A source tells Fox that the incident may have occurred earlier, noting that police went knocking on the student’s door at 1:30pm. As of this writing, Fox has not been able to obtain reaction from the White House.

I am still flabbergasted and pissed off about it.

195 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:58:15pm

re: #178 Naso Tang

I was being sarcastic and realistic. Vouchers are the stealth way to defund public education and eventually do away with it, as is stated very clearly by many Republicans. The bit about getting rid of another major public employee union eventually is probably icing on the cake.

The problem with some public schools is dysfunctional families, not bad teachers.

Because they know there will be far less political fallout from ending a voucher program after public schools are gone then simply saying “let’s close public schools”.

196 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:58:52pm

re: #174 Stanley Sea

Have you read this piece in NYT Mag about Ann Dunham, “Obama’s Young Mother Abroad” - If you haven’t you will enjoy, it’s excellent

Oh and good evening!

The article was quite interesting; I can’t wait until the book from which it is excerpted from comes out.

Oh, and a good evening right back at you!

197 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:58:59pm

Nope. No brainwashing of any kind.

Youtube Video

//

198 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:59:36pm

re: #167 Slumbering Behemoth

Unless she’s on the cover of an Iron Maiden album.

/Heh, today’s kids probably don’t give a shit about Iron Maiden either.

not true, there’s a lot of Maiden love in the new generation, i seen it first hand

Scrawny kids at the Mastodon shows I’ve been to? Wearing Number of the Beast shirts. Parents? Also maiden fans.

Nothing made me happy like the three Mastodon shows I saw, espeically the Blackdiamondskye concert, here’s how it shook out:

Old farts were there for Alice in Chains. Which is cool! AIC put on a wonderful show.

Late 20 somethings, and then women with heels (?!?!?!?!) were there for the Deftones, which…eh. Deftones not my thing.

And the kids were all there for Mastodon, singing along to every song, even Naked Burn and Mother Puncher. Also, the prog heads like me going “PLAY SLEEPINGGIANTPLAYSLEEPINGGIANTPLAYSLEEPINGGIANT YES!!!”

Don’t worry, the new generation of metalheads will be JUST FINE if Mastodon are their idols

199 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:59:47pm

re: #159 Shiplord Kirel

Yet another Republican falls victim to the Curse of the Appalachian Trail.

In the interest of equal access, I would like to bring in the Magical Balance Fairy for a response. Go ahead, Mr. Fairy.

Clinton, Teddy Kennedy, Gary Hart! Squawk! Squawk!

Thank you, Magical, but it is the Curse of the Monkey Business when Democrats do it.

200 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 4:59:59pm

re: #188 Stanley Sea

Ghouls.

201 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:00:14pm

re: #200 Slumbering Behemoth

Ghouls.

‘n ghosts

202 Stanley Sea  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:00:16pm

re: #196 Surabaya Stew

The article was quite interesting; I can’t wait until the book from which it is excerpted from comes out.

Oh, and a good evening right back at you!

You lived in Indonesia, correct? Yes, it seems like it would be especially interesting to you!

203 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:00:20pm

re: #190 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, I also learned the idea of “haves and have nots.” Part of the reason that performing arts school is doing so well is that its price tag keeps it out of the reach of the have nots, same as admission boards. You start cutting vouchers for the have nots, the school’s going to raise its tuition, to keep itself out of their reach.

At the same time, all those parents who now have vouchers in hand are going to think the same thing: “Now I can afford to send Junior to the best schools in the city!” So, between the price tag, the admissions, and the competition, you’re no closer to putting little Johnny in that performing arts school than you were before vouchers.

Exactly. You end up with the same deal in health insurance, of course. Got a voucher? hehehe! Our prices went up 300% while you were waiting! You can look at our $2000 deductible economy plan, of course…

204 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:02:06pm

re: #203 celticdragon

Exactly. You end up with the same deal in health insurance, of course. Got a voucher? hehehe! Our prices went up 300% while you were waiting! You can look at our $2000 deductible economy plan, of course…

Now, we’ll just take this voucher as a down payment, but we’re expecting you to cover the rest out of pocket. You mean you can’t afford it? Sorry, but we only help paying customers. Now please move aside, you’re holding up the line.

205 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:02:08pm

re: #198 WindUpBird

Scrawny kids at the Mastodon shows I’ve been to? Wearing Number of the Beast shirts.

Hmm… I always just assumed those were stupid hipsters wearing vintage metal shirts ironically.

206 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:03:07pm

re: #203 celticdragon

Exactly. You end up with the same deal in health insurance, of course. Got a voucher? hehehe! Our prices went up 300% while you were waiting! You can look at our $2000 deductible economy plan, of course…

we all got it comin’, kid


-Unforgiven

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:03:22pm

re: #203 celticdragon

Exactly. You end up with the same deal in health insurance, of course. Got a voucher? hehehe! Our prices went up 300% while you were waiting! You can look at our $2000 deductible economy plan, of course…

Voucher programs have some potential to be helpful to a specific range of families.

What they WON’T do is fix the public schools of America. No way, nohow. They also won’t provide a good education for most children.

So I am not opposed to them—as one tool in the toolbox. A minor tool in the toolbox.

208 Stanley Sea  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:03:55pm

Egypt update

[Link: prospect.org…]

There is a larger percentage of birthers in the Republican Party than hardcore Islamists in Egypt.

Does it seem like I have ADD?

209 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:03:55pm

The cake is a liiiiiiiie!

Had to get this out of my system. The cake really is a lie. We’re celebrating a birthday here with a panookie instead of a cake.

210 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:04:15pm

How could I forget. The Boy Scouts.

Walks like a duck.

//

211 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:04:48pm

re: #188 Stanley Sea

[Link: www.google.com…]

Absolutely disgusting.

I heard about this. That’s disgusting. Even for Fox.

212 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:04:53pm

re: #205 Slumbering Behemoth

Hmm… I always just assumed those were stupid hipsters wearing vintage metal shirts ironically.

Hipsters aren’t 11 years old with braces. ;-)

These weren’t hipsters. These were actual excited-to-giddiness Mastodon kids. Like I was a kid seeing GnR and Testament, the cycle begins anew

213 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:04:59pm

re: #195 prononymous

Because they know there will be far less political fallout from ending a voucher program after public schools are gone then simply saying “let’s close public schools”.

My children obtained excellent education in public schools, with a lot of help at home, and they took all AP classes in “magnet” schools within the schools in high school.

Take enough “good” kids who want to learn out of a school and the dominant personality will become the dysfunctional one, which will then become a self fulfilling prophesy for the politicians; until they find out that none of the private schools want the leftovers.

Then the real fun starts.

214 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:05:28pm

re: #213 Naso Tang

My children obtained excellent education in public schools, with a lot of help at home, and they took all AP classes in “magnet” schools within the schools in high school.

Take enough “good” kids who want to learn out of a school and the dominant personality will become the dysfunctional one, which will then become a self fulfilling prophesy for the politicians; until they find out that none of the private schools want the leftovers.

Then the real fun starts.

I was one of those magnet AP kids!

215 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:07:05pm

Evolution is a lie. Creationism is science. Women who are in control of their health and reproductive choices are actually being oppressed. If gays get equal protection under the law it will violate constitutional rights.

Any other bombshell revelations from the religiously blinkered?

216 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:07:17pm

re: #204 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Now, we’ll just take this voucher as a down payment, but we’re expecting you to cover the rest out of pocket. You mean you can’t afford it? Sorry, but we only help paying customers. Now please move aside, you’re holding up the line.

No, there will always be that little house or church over in the other side of town that just got approved for a school, vouchers accepted for full payment.

217 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:07:44pm

re: #214 WindUpBird

I was one of those magnet AP kids!

I have no doubt.

218 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:08:21pm

re: #190 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, I also learned the idea of “haves and have nots.” Part of the reason that performing arts school is doing so well is that its price tag keeps it out of the reach of the have nots, same as admission boards. You start cutting vouchers for the have nots, the school’s going to raise its tuition, to keep itself out of their reach.

At the same time, all those parents who now have vouchers in hand are going to think the same thing: “Now I can afford to send Junior to the best schools in the city!” So, between the price tag, the admissions, and the competition, you’re no closer to putting little Johnny in that performing arts school than you were before vouchers.

Bullshit. We have Ed Choice in Ohio that supplies ‘vouchers’ to parents in districts where schools are failing. My kids go to private school - one a Waldorf school (expensive), the other a Catholic school (not so expensive). We have LOT”S of Ed Choice kids in both schools and it has not caused tuition to go up, if anything it has kept it suppressed by expanding enrollment.

There are good arguements against vouchers. Your not making one of them.

219 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:10:17pm

re: #206 WindUpBird

we all got it comin’, kid

-Unforgiven

A great quote from a great movie.

Sometimes, the truth is grim.

220 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:10:36pm

re: #214 WindUpBird

I was one of those magnet AP kids!

Sounds like something I’d put on the fridge.

221 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:11:18pm

re: #220 wrenchwench

Sounds like something I’d put on the fridge.

We did. Report cards.

222 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:11:37pm

re: #203 celticdragon

re: #204 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Unless you got something to back this up, your talking out your ass.

223 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:11:57pm

re: #180 prononymous

Yes! Show them the science in a fun way as frank here describes. Also, maybe dissolve some diatom frustules, clam shells, or coral skeletons in carbonic acid. There are plenty of real world, if not hands-on, ways to get kids interested in the real world.

Science is meant to be done, not listened to.

224 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:14:15pm

re: #221 Naso Tang

We did. Report cards.

Not the kid?

225 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:14:37pm

re: #223 EmmmieG

Science is meant to be done, not listened to.

I disagree. Some science is meant to be listened to.

With that, I am out. It’s Beer:30, laters all.

226 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:14:58pm

re: #202 Stanley Sea

You lived in Indonesia, correct? Yes, it seems like it would be especially interesting to you!

Heh, not quite living there; but thats not for lack of trying! (10 trips there in 8 years, Indonesian wife, indo-inspired LFG username, etc…) Everything about the whole country just fascinates me. As a result, I can totally identify with Obama’s Mother and her obsession with the place.

The article makes the case that Javanese culture of the late 60’s rubbed off on Obama while he was growing up, and formed part of his public persona of patience and calm demeanor. I agree with this premise, and think it goes a long way towards a better understanding of our President.

227 Gus  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:15:21pm

re: #225 Slumbering Behemoth

I disagree. Some science is meant to be listened to.

With that, I am out. It’s Beer:30, laters all.

Looks like Beer:17 to me.

//

228 BongCrodny  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:15:26pm

re: #219 celticdragon

A great quote from a great movie.

Sometimes, the truth is grim.


Fuck Yeah.

There aren’t many years I’ve agreed with The Academy when it comes to the selection of Best Picture, but that was one of them.

229 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:15:42pm

re: #220 wrenchwench

Sounds like something I’d put on the fridge.

I prefer magnets like this

230 SidewaysQuark  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:16:22pm

I’d seriously jump at the chance to teach creationism in the science classroom, from a 100% accurate perspective. People like Perry wouldn’t know what hit him.

231 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:16:27pm

re: #214 WindUpBird

I was one of those magnet AP kids!

Hey! Have you heard of the band Budgie from the 70’s?

Youtube Video
232 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:16:29pm

re: #208 Stanley Sea

Egypt update

[Link: prospect.org…]

Does it seem like I have ADD?

Also known as “Twitter Brain” these days.

My attention span is 140 characters long.

233 BongCrodny  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:18:24pm

re: #232 wrenchwench


My attention span is 140 characters long.


That would make for an awesome t-shirt or bumper sticker.

234 Stanley Sea  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:19:00pm

OK check out this graphic:

American Perception

SANTA!
Call Centers!

235 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:19:40pm

My bottom line two cents, I would have nothing against vouchers if I didn’t know it had to come out of public education. We continue to create an increasing subculture of ignorant citizens at our peril.

BBL

236 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:19:40pm

re: #214 WindUpBird

I was one of those magnet AP kids!

I was the opposite. I could ace any test, but was thrown in special ed because I had (?) behavioral problems. Eventually I left the public school system, only to find that many affordable private schools, religious/”alternative”/etc, are even worse. So I home-schooled myself instead. The materials were still woefully inadequate (american school), but at least the teacher was on my level. :(

re: #223 EmmmieG

Science is meant to be done, not listened to.

IMO, republicans could spend a lot more time listening to and doing science.

237 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:21:23pm

re: #222 Jeff In Ohio

re: #204 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Unless you got something to back this up, your talking out your ass.

One of those short attention ADD adults, maybe? You can medication for that.

In the meantime, there is a long history of insurance companies raising rates whenever they sense a possibility of getting gubmint money out of it. Invisible hand of the market and all that.

238 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:21:53pm

re: #230 SidewaysQuark

I’d seriously jump at the chance to teach creationism in the science classroom, from a 100% accurate perspective. People like Perry wouldn’t know what hit him.

Of course the wingnuts are already one step ahead. What they want is scientific affirmative action for creationism to be granted equal validity with evolution, not equal scrutiny.

239 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:22:35pm

re: #234 Stanley Sea

OK check out this graphic:

American Perception

SANTA!
Call Centers!

Thanks for helping me find the Angry Black Lady. Something cool and/or funny every day.

240 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:23:01pm

re: #239 wrenchwench

Thanks for helping me find the Angry Black Lady. Something cool and/or funny every day.

She seriously rocks.

241 Stanley Sea  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:23:24pm

re: #226 Surabaya Stew

Heh, not quite living there; but thats not for lack of trying! (10 trips there in 8 years, Indonesian wife, indo-inspired LFG username, etc…) Everything about the whole country just fascinates me. As a result, I can totally identify with Obama’s Mother and her obsession with the place.

The article makes the case that Javanese culture of the late 60’s rubbed off on Obama while he was growing up, and formed part of his public persona of patience and calm demeanor. I agree with this premise, and think it goes a long way towards a better understanding of our President.

Exactly. For the thinkers. For the non-thinkers foreign living/travel/global experience is a SCARY SCARY THING! And to me is the basis of the birther rage.

242 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:25:04pm

re: #237 celticdragon

One of those short attention ADD adults, maybe? You can medication for that.

In the meantime, there is a long history of insurance companies raising rates whenever they sense a possibility of getting gubmint money out of it. Invisible hand of the market and all that.

I apologize if I misunderstood you. I thought you were using health insurance as an analogy to support a contention that private schools use vouchers to justify tuition increases, maybe you were just drawing a parallel, while not really agreeing with or supporting the poster you were referencing.

243 Stanley Sea  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:25:05pm

re: #232 wrenchwench

Also known as “Twitter Brain” these days.

My attention span is 140 characters long.

Don’t you love when you leave the screen for, oh 1/2 hour and you have 130 new tweets? I’ve got to let go of some folks I follow, but damn, they do perform.

244 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:25:16pm

re: #218 Jeff In Ohio

Bullshit. We have Ed Choice in Ohio that supplies ‘vouchers’ to parents in districts where schools are failing. My kids go to private school - one a Waldorf school (expensive), the other a Catholic school (not so expensive). We have LOT”S of Ed Choice kids in both schools and it has not caused tuition to go up, if anything it has kept it suppressed by expanding enrollment.

There are good arguements against vouchers. Your not making one of them.

Yeah, a great system: the state takes money out of already failing schools and gives it to one of a number of private schools that have agreed to participate in the program. Yeah, can’t see why they’re failing under such a scenario…

Like said above, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. You hack and slash the public school budget, then point to the fact that the schools are under-performing as reason to shut them down and just cut vouchers out to the parents.

245 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:26:54pm

re: #244 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, a great system: the state takes money out of already failing schools and gives it to one of a number of private schools that have agreed to participate in the program. Yeah, can’t see why they’re failing under such a scenario…

Like said above, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. You hack and slash the public school budget, then point to the fact that the schools are under-performing as reason to shut them down and just cut vouchers out to the parents.

A what point does any of THAT have anything do to with your contention that vouchers are used to increase tuition at private schools?

246 Stanley Sea  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:27:13pm

re: #239 wrenchwench

Thanks for helping me find the Angry Black Lady. Something cool and/or funny every day.

Oh isn’t she the shit? I love how her followers got her to tweet (occasionally) #TFY instead of #TeamFuckYeah for their church going moms.

247 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:27:56pm

re: #245 Jeff In Ohio

A what point does any of THAT have anything do to with your contention that vouchers are used to increase tuition at private schools?

Under what terms are those private schools participating in the program?

248 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:33:59pm

re: #247 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Under what terms are those private schools participating in the program?

THey need to be chartered by the state and registered in the program.

[Link: www.ode.state.oh.us…]

Again, I’m not advocating for Ed Choice or vouchers. I’m asking you to support your assertion private schools who accept vouchers then hike their tuition.

249 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:34:47pm

re: #241 Stanley Sea

Exactly. For the thinkers. For the non-thinkers foreign living/travel/global experience is a SCARY SCARY THING! And to me is the basis of the birther rage.

Agreed, that and racism form the basis of the birther rage. Were he a “typical” African-American raised in the USA 100%, they would have a more interesting time casting him as a bad person; probally they would bring up his “urban” background as the root for all his “evil” and threat to “real american” values.

We live in a huge country full of so many interesting things that one can live a pretty full life in the Lower 48 states alone. When travel to Mexico is ‘scary’ to many folks here, imagine comprehending living in Indonesia! Sadly, his unique childhood goes a long way in making Obama seem like a “durn furriner” to the TPers and other “real Amerikuns”.

250 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:38:33pm

re: #248 Jeff In Ohio

THey need to be chartered by the state and registered in the program.

[Link: www.ode.state.oh.us…]

Again, I’m not advocating for Ed Choice or vouchers. I’m asking you to support your assertion private schools who accept vouchers then hike their tuition.

Hmm, guess this is the point where I have my mea culpa moment and admit I’ve been talking out my ass.

251 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 6:30:09pm

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

Humans all share common interests. Politics, aside!

252 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 6:31:11pm

re: #75 LudwigVanQuixote

I realized something today.

I have not been doing enough to piss off teabags. I started arranging to give a bunch of talks at local High Schools about AGW and climate change. Lots and lots of pictures. Let the kiddies bring that back to their GOP parents :)

I’ll also bring up evolution. :)

Good for you!

253 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 6:33:39pm

re: #102 wrenchwench

Titles and cred mean shit if you create a lot of depressed kids at a school.

And the administration won’t be impressed when you bring Bush and Iraq into an AGW discussion.

Tell them what ACTIONS they & their families can take, the little things that add up! You & I have discussed them, before. Give them something POSITIVE to do!

254 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 6:36:42pm

Sheesh, I’m doing the dead thread posting thing.

255 b_sharp  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 6:50:10pm

re: #254 Floral Giraffe

Sheesh, I’m doing the dead thread posting thing.

You killed it.

256 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 6:56:50pm

re: #254 Floral Giraffe

Sheesh, I’m doing the dead thread posting thing.

Hey hon!

257 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 9:04:02pm

re: #254 Floral Giraffe

Sheesh, I’m doing the dead thread posting thing.

Me too.

258 hellosnackbar  Fri, Apr 22, 2011 4:23:13am

I wonder if any of the children of the believers would ever be set an essay
entitled “bullshit baffles common sense ;discuss!” for their homework?


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