Overnight Open Thread

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Pappy with the Khaki sweatband
Bowed goat potbellied barnyard that only he noticed
The old fart was smart
The old gold cloth madonna
Dancin’ t’ the fiddle ‘n saw
He ran down behind the knoll
‘n slipped on his wooden fishhead
The mouth worked ‘n snapped all the bees
Back t’ the bungalow

Captain Beefheart, “Old Fart At Play”

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498 comments
1 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 23, 2011 10:27:54pm

Have a good night oh scaly hordes.

2 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 23, 2011 10:53:43pm

Time for me to pack it in as well. Night folks.

3 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Apr 23, 2011 11:13:41pm

The controversial FMCNL Twitter feed, which monitors military aviation radio traffic, is still up. The latest is that a French Mirage (presumably a 2000) has made an emergency landing in Malta, apparently after a mission over Libya (the aircraft is armed). The feed cannot monitor encrypted tactical channels of course, but it routinely reports when military aircraft switch to these channels from plain voice. A Canadian CC-150 tanker was apparently off Libya tonight and the ultra-spooky RC-135W Rivet Joint Sigint aircraft has also been operating in the area.
Image: RC-135W

4 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Apr 23, 2011 11:19:38pm

Eek!! FMCNL blandly reports that Air Force One is airborne between X and Y in the western US. They name the cities but I am disinclined to repeat them here.
Terrorists and evil doers could monitor these frequencies themselves of course but there is no reason to make the job easier or sort the signals out for them.

5 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:17:20am

..his excited eyes from within the dark interior glaze/
watered with anticipation/
of his thoughtful preparation.

(Oh man, that's so heavy!)

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:18:01am

Playing with the mini-mall items at Pogo.

Apparently, and this is important, just because you put ON the Easter bonnet does not mean that you take OFF the Pictish warpaint.

Good to know.

7 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:31:32am

Christmas is about Christ!

Easter is about Oestra!!!

8 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:35:36am

re: #7 ralphieboy

Christmas is about Christ!

Easter is about Oestra!!!

Easter is about fucking in rabbit costumes, hell yeah

9 freetoken  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:42:02am

re: #7 ralphieboy

Easter is about Oestra!!!

Well, I suppose that is better than it being about Olestra.

10 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:43:28am

re: #9 freetoken

Well, I suppose that is better than it being about Olestra.

do they even sell Olestra snack foods anymore?

11 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:21:04am

Love Will Tear Us Apart

12 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:40:04am

Hey all!

Happy Chocolate Bunny Day!

anyone awake? (besides me)

13 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:40:43am

Frank Says:

Well, you know people, I'd rather have my own game show than have enough votes to become president.

Amen!

14 freetoken  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:55:12am

re: #10 WindUpBird

Don't know. Never liked the stuff - only eat real food.

15 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:55:57am

like Chocolate Bunnies?

signing-off for now.

have a great morning!

16 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:56:42am

re: #14 freetoken

I figure fat free potato chips are cheating :D

17 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:47:00am

Morning, all

18 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:47:22am

Olestra, Kool-Whip, starch blockers: all about not having to alter our eating habits while enjoying fatty, sugary foods.

America's energy policy: about not having to alter our energy consumption habits while consuming resources from politically unstable parts of the world.

19 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:52:31am

re: #17 researchok

Morning, all

still evening for me :D

20 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:54:20am

re: #18 ralphieboy

Olestra, Kool-Whip, starch blockers: all about not having to alter our eating habits while enjoying fatty, sugary foods.

America's energy policy: about not having to alter our energy consumption habits while consuming resources from politically unstable parts of the world.

pretty much!

I just stopped keeping snack foods in the house, besides maybe triscuits, too easy to eat in lieu of real food, and I know that I won't go to the store specifically to buy snack food. I already consume too many empty calories in the form of micros. Socially engineering my own bad habits away

21 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:56:21am

re: #19 WindUpBird

still evening for me :D

That means you can have one more beer.

22 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:57:00am

re: #18 ralphieboy

Olestra, Kool-Whip, starch blockers: all about not having to alter our eating habits while enjoying fatty, sugary foods.

America's energy policy: about not having to alter our energy consumption habits while consuming resources from politically unstable parts of the world.

a small, evil, opportunistic part of me is waiting for the day when gas is just $8 a gallon and never going down

because that is the day when I will scoop up a 2005 GTO for beater Nissan Sentra money, and then it'll just be the date car, driven on weekends only to hear the mighty LS2 roar

23 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:58:28am

re: #21 researchok

That means you can have one more beer.

having it now! A Widmer KGB imperial stout, because I'm a commie: [Link: www.widmer.com...]

they're uhhhh potent ._.

24 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:59:18am

re: #23 WindUpBird

having it now! A Widmer KGB imperial stout, because I'm a commie: [Link: www.widmer.com...]

they're uhhh potent ._.

I hate you.
//

working on coffee here

25 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:00:24am

re: #24 researchok

Don't hate me, I got 2 hours of sleep last night and I put in a 14 hour work day today. This beer was hard fought, clawing my way through the drudgery

26 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:01:12am

re: #24 researchok

INSOMNIA SUCKS

Palahniuk is right. You're never really awake, and you're never really asleep *_*

27 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:01:53am

re: #25 WindUpBird

Don't hate me, I got 2 hours of sleep last night and I put in a 14 hour work day today. This beer was hard fought, clawing my way through the drudgery

Damn!

Go to sleep!

28 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:03:33am

You need a sleep routine

Get awa yfrom puter at least 20 minutes before you want to hit the sack

29 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:04:00am

re: #27 researchok

Damn!

Go to sleep!

Not yet! The "dessert" of my work day is the beer, and more importantly, being able to make some headway on my Extra Secret Big Personal Project, nicely buzzed. I generally go to sleep around 5am, that's the rhythm...when the rhythm works :P

30 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:05:34am

re: #28 researchok

You need a sleep routine

Get awa yfrom puter at least 20 minutes before you want to hit the sack

I do, I do, I generally hang it up around 4:30-5am, throw on some spacey ambient, crash in bed, read a bit before I drift away

31 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:05:43am

Well, just be sure to take care of yourself.

Sleep deprivation is no joke.

32 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:07:14am

re: #31 researchok

Well, just be sure to take care of yourself.

Sleep deprivation is no joke.

My body does this EVERY SPRING, EVERY SINGLE SPRING and also fall, when the day length changes, I get this insomnia like clockwork

and I've got a ton of work crap going on as well, so sometimes it's hard to wind down

33 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:09:21am
34 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:09:51am

peaceful tunes for the morning crowd, Jim Matheos of Fates Warning, OSI

You wouldn't believe this guy is a metal guitarist, from listening to this, you'll just float away to dreamland listening to his acoustic stuff, probably my favorite guitarist

35 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:12:50am

re: #34 WindUpBird

Listening.... good stuff

36 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:13:15am

re: #33 researchok

I saw that, but I don't know any developments, i just heard he killed himself after being fired

I'm still legitimately shook up about the transgendered woman who got attacked at McDonalds in maryland :/ I have many transgendered friends

and then Drudge and Limbaugh were of course racebaiting with the story because the assailants were black, just layers of hate and ugliness and nasty media opportunism

37 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:15:24am

re: #36 WindUpBird

I saw that, but I don't know any developments, i just heard he killed himself after being fired

I'm still legitimately shook up about the transgendered woman who got attacked at McDonalds in maryland :/ I have many transgendered friends

and then Drudge and Limbaugh were of course racebaiting with the story because the assailants were black, just layers of hate and ugliness and nasty media opportunism

It's a double tragedy, what happened there.

Transgender issues are hugely difficult on so many levels.

38 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:15:54am

re: #35 researchok

Listening... good stuff

he's genius: here's a more energetic acoustic thing:

The man is just made of nothing but creativity and will, he does this mellow acoustic stuff, he has his metal band, and then he has an experimental electronic rock project called O.S.I., with Kevin Moore, Gavin Harrison, Mikael Akerfelt of Opeth

They are the Cool Kids to me :D

39 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:16:18am

re: #34 WindUpBird

This really is excellent stuff.

Is there an album?

40 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:16:42am

re: #37 researchok

It's a double tragedy, what happened there.

Transgender issues are hugely difficult on so many levels.

as bad as gay people can have it, transgendered people have it triply bad

41 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:17:49am

re: #39 researchok

there's two, First Impressions, which is just guitar and violin/cello, and Away With Words, which has drums, chapman stick, and has a somewhat more driving sound: [Link: www.amazon.com...]

42 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:18:55am

re: #40 WindUpBird

as bad as gay people can have it, transgendered people have it triply bad

Ain't that the truth.

I wrote on it a while back- no comments left but I must have received 100 emails.

No kidding.

I'll dig it up

43 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:21:26am

re: #42 researchok

Ain't that the truth.

I wrote on it a while back- no comments left but I must have received 100 emails.

No kidding.

I'll dig it up

wow!


All goofing aside about my geekiness, one of the reasons I sorta evangelize about conventions and geek culture is that it's welcoming to gay and TG people, it's a safe place to be yourself

44 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:22:54am

Disabilities, Sex And Politics

Please read it in the vein in which it was intended.

45 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:23:30am

re: #39 researchok

here's his OSI project, some of the album is really metal and loud, and some of it is this contemplative electronic stuff:

46 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:28:57am

re: #45 WindUpBird

here's his OSI project, some of the album is really metal and loud, and some of it is this contemplative electronic stuff:

[Video]

Pretty cool song.. I like it

47 BongCrodny  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:32:14am

re: #36 WindUpBird

I saw that, but I don't know any developments, i just heard he killed himself after being fired

I'm still legitimately shook up about the transgendered woman who got attacked at McDonalds in maryland :/ I have many transgendered friends

and then Drudge and Limbaugh were of course racebaiting with the story because the assailants were black, just layers of hate and ugliness and nasty media opportunism


I still find it amazing that those guys can repeatedly pile on the garbage like that and then still express their disbelief that black people don't vote Republican.

48 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:34:11am

re: #44 researchok

this is a good article!

I worry about surgery for TG people, my health care experience has sorta led me to the conclusion that surgery is often the wrong course. I've known some young TG people who have the idea that surgery will just erase everything that they feel is wrong about their body, and they'll be fine. And it doesn't always seem to work out that way. I'm a proponent of surgery being the last resort.

There's a movement among young people now (I'm 34, these are 20-something folks I know in the indie comics and fandom scenes) who refer to themselves as "genderqueer". Not interested in surgery, but very much adamant that they do not fall neatly into the slot of Male or Female. And I can relate to that. I'm not that, but I can understand it, I can see it from here. :) I like the notion of just carving out a new category, rather than going under the knife to fulfill the old sexual binary. it seems like it'll lead to better outcomes for quality of life.

Of course, i'm also someone who is a bit phobic of surgery and doesn't understand elective surgery. Going under the knife for vanity makes no sense to me. Anesthetic, infections, complications, serious business, it's a real risk. :P

49 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:36:27am

re: #46 HoosierHoops

Pretty cool song.. I like it

They've got three records, they all have that spirit of experimental discovery to them, span from spacy ambient to Radiohead rock to bizarro 5/4-to-7/8-to-lord-knows-what Drop-B tuning progressive metal :D

50 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:39:31am

re: #48 WindUpBird

this is a good article!

I worry about surgery for TG people, my health care experience has sorta led me to the conclusion that surgery is often the wrong course. I've known some young TG people who have the idea that surgery will just erase everything that they feel is wrong about their body, and they'll be fine. And it doesn't always seem to work out that way. I'm a proponent of surgery being the last resort.

There's a movement among young people now (I'm 34, these are 20-something folks I know in the indie comics and fandom scenes) who refer to themselves as "genderqueer". Not interested in surgery, but very much adamant that they do not fall neatly into the slot of Male or Female. And I can relate to that. I'm not that, but I can understand it, I can see it from here. :) I like the notion of just carving out a new category, rather than going under the knife to fulfill the old sexual binary. it seems like it'll lead to better outcomes for quality of life.

Of course, i'm also someone who is a bit phobic of surgery and doesn't understand elective surgery. Going under the knife for vanity makes no sense to me. Anesthetic, infections, complications, serious business, it's a real risk. :P

Exactly, exactly, exactly- you got what I was trying to say!

The transgender issue is so complex on so many levels. The psychological issues of loneliness for gays, straights, transgenders (no matter the origin) muddy the waters:

In addressing sexuality, we must face another truth. Conservatism and religion have not equipped us to deal with loneliness – and neither has atheism or liberalism. Instead, there are those look to those who would co opt us for their own needs. That is a small price to pay for not having to learn how to deal with ones ownuniqueness or alienation.

As far as I am concerned, this a key matter that needs more discussion.

51 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:40:35am

re: #49 WindUpBird

They've got three records, they all have that spirit of experimental discovery to them, span from spacy ambient to Radiohead rock to bizarro 5/4-to-7/8-to-lord-knows-what Drop-B tuning progressive metal :D

next weekend we are having a music festival here at OU
200 bands and 30000 college kids..Boy is it going to be fun

52 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:42:47am

re: #47 BongCrodny

I still find it amazing that those guys can repeatedly pile on the garbage like that and then still express their disbelief that black people don't vote Republican.

I wonder if we'll ever see guys like Limbaugh and Neil Boortz and all the rest fall off the earth, they have decades of radio career left in them, and they have a lot of power over opinion.

How do you get rid of those guys? You can't. Radio is dying as a relevant medium, but it's still powerful enough to shape opinion for those who listen, which are increasingly becoming a monolitically conservative demo. Portland's big rock station KUFO is dead, replaced with more conservative talk, just now on FM. All the good radio in Portland is now internet only, and the ratings on cascadia.fm (our flagship NW internet radio station) are beating almost all the local terrestrial radio station ratings. The airwaves are being abandoned to this garbage hate talk.

53 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:43:47am

re: #51 HoosierHoops

next weekend we are having a music festival here at OU
200 bands and 30000 college kids..Boy is it going to be fun

200 bands! Holy hell!

National acts or local acts?

54 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:46:58am

re: #52 WindUpBird

I wonder if we'll ever see guys like Limbaugh and Neil Boortz and all the rest fall off the earth, they have decades of radio career left in them, and they have a lot of power over opinion.

How do you get rid of those guys? You can't. Radio is dying as a relevant medium, but it's still powerful enough to shape opinion for those who listen, which are increasingly becoming a monolitically conservative demo. Portland's big rock station KUFO is dead, replaced with more conservative talk, just now on FM. All the good radio in Portland is now internet only, and the ratings on cascadia.fm (our flagship NW internet radio station) are beating almost all the local terrestrial radio station ratings. The airwaves are being abandoned to this garbage hate talk.

Limbaugh and Boortz will go extinct.

They will be replaced of course, but by lesser and lesser influential individuals.

The only thing you can be certain of is change.

Evolution, you know?

55 schnapp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:47:44am

Anyone here a fan of Jeremy Clarkson?
Just found a collection of his best articles:
If I ruled the world

56 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:48:08am

re: #53 WindUpBird

200 bands! Holy hell!

National acts or local acts?

mostly local college acts but to get in is hard..You need a video and DVD that gets approved... My fav all girl punk rock band is playing..John Wayne sucks
I go out drinking with the singer sometimes..She is awesome

57 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:50:00am

re: #50 researchok

yeah, I see folks who (I believe) need to put aside the drastic solution 9surgery) in favor of the non-drastic solution of therapy and addressing alienation.

LOT of TG folks in fandom. And some people in fandom come to fandom because they're alienated from everything else. It's a hard thing, with no easy solutions. But you have people that covet a self image, and that becomes everything. and they chase that, and make irreversible decisions. And what happens when that doesn't work! Now you've spent all this money and undergone this incredibly invasive surgery, and if the hole isn't filled?

Sorta like the corporate careerist, the social climber who gets the mighty job and realizes he's still unhappy, and his problems are still there. he just has more money to distract him.

58 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:52:23am

re: #54 researchok

Limbaugh and Boortz will go extinct.

They will be replaced of course, but by lesser and lesser influential individuals.

The only thing you can be certain of is change.

Evolution, you know?

they will, hopefully not to be replaced by the hyper-conspiracists like Beck and Alex Jones *_*

They'll go extinct eventually, and the internet will eventually eliminate radio. but Limbaugh will be there until the end. That guy is nothing but unhappiness. Married 4 times, addiction, all he has is his job. All he has is his power as a talker. probably another 20 years of that guy we'll be blessed with. I wonder if he'd even be in the talker gig anymore if he had a happy marriage.

59 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:54:01am

re: #56 HoosierHoops

mostly local college acts but to get in is hard..You need a video and DVD that gets approved... My fav all girl punk rock band is playing..John Wayne sucks
I go out drinking with the singer sometimes..She is awesome

awesome!

My favorite all girl punk band is the mighty Seven year Bitch

60 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:54:24am

re: #59 WindUpBird

probably a bit early for garage grunge, but there it is :D

61 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:55:02am

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Ether.
Ether who?
Ether bunny.

62 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:55:25am

re: #55 schnapp

Anyone here a fan of Jeremy Clarkson?
Just found a collection of his best articles:
If I ruled the world

I am a MASSIVE fan of Clarkson and Top Gear

One of the funniest men alive

Who says I don't love conservatives? I crush on Clarkson :D

63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:57:40am

re: #31 researchok

Ever read the "Evan Tanner" books by Lawrence Block?

His sleep center was destroyed and does not sleep. Love those books.

64 BongCrodny  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:00:08am

re: #62 WindUpBird

I am a MASSIVE fan of Clarkson and Top Gear

One of the funniest men alive

Who says I don't love conservatives? I crush on Clarkson :D

Thumbs up to anyone who can use the term "sheep's dingleberries" in the first paragraph of an op-ed piece.

65 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:00:24am

re: #57 WindUpBird

yeah, I see folks who (I believe) need to put aside the drastic solution 9surgery) in favor of the non-drastic solution of therapy and addressing alienation.

LOT of TG folks in fandom. And some people in fandom come to fandom because they're alienated from everything else. It's a hard thing, with no easy solutions. But you have people that covet a self image, and that becomes everything. and they chase that, and make irreversible decisions. And what happens when that doesn't work! Now you've spent all this money and undergone this incredibly invasive surgery, and if the hole isn't filled?

Sorta like the corporate careerist, the social climber who gets the mighty job and realizes he's still unhappy, and his problems are still there. he just has more money to distract him.

These are very necessary conversations because the focus are on the issues and not on the politics.

Seriously.

Not all righties are of the 'hang 'em all because they are going to hell' variety' and not all lefties are of the 'Act Up let's do it on the church altarand Sister Boom Boom are reasonable activities' variety.

Take away the political (and hateful religious) components and we have what to talk about.

Fact is, we need to have the conversation. Gays cannot be excluded from full participation because of their sexual orientation any more than religious people can be excluded because fo their beliefs.

The matter really is serious.

66 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:02:24am

re: #64 BongCrodny

Thumbs up to anyone who can use the term "sheep's dingleberries" in the first paragraph of an op-ed piece.

I could go on and on

Clarkson's viciously negative and hilarious review of the Ford SVT Lightning, I giggle whever I think of it.

THERE'S ONLY ONE PROBLEM.....


IT'S RUBBISH. :-(

67 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:03:49am

re: #58 WindUpBird

they will, hopefully not to be replaced by the hyper-conspiracists like Beck and Alex Jones *_*

They'll go extinct eventually, and the internet will eventually eliminate radio. but Limbaugh will be there until the end. That guy is nothing but unhappiness. Married 4 times, addiction, all he has is his job. All he has is his power as a talker. probably another 20 years of that guy we'll be blessed with. I wonder if he'd even be in the talker gig anymore if he had a happy marriage.

Beck lost a major platform and Limbaugh preaches to a choir, with an ageing audience.

Nature will takes its course.

As far as Jones goesm he is nowhere near as influential as his predecessors.

68 BongCrodny  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:08:44am

re: #67 researchok

Beck lost a major platform and Limbaugh preaches to a choir, with an ageing audience.

Nature will takes its course.

As far as Jones goesm he is nowhere near as influential as his predecessors.


The problem is that the marketplace doesn't seem to replace "crazy" with "sane." It replaces "crazy" with "batshit crazy."

Jones may not be that influential, but I've heard more mentions of his name in the past six months than ever before.

69 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:09:07am

re: #65 researchok

oh i have a little motley crue of righties as friends, on these internets :D An objectivist who loves him some Ayn Rand who is a coder, a brilliant and gifted comic artist who is full on Destroy the Fed, a lot of Bush conservatives who would be right at home on LGF. A real estate agent who was a high school friend... and all of them are on board with us on social issues, because, heh, most of them are gay! and they all feel they don't have a party. Gay conservative geeks are all gay and conservative and geeky in wildly different ways. liberal geeks tend to be more predictable


My temple rubbing anger is always against the so-cons. And the fandom is sort of kryptonite for social conservatives. It's not for them. it's everything they hate.

70 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:12:03am

Morning all! I have arisen!

71 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:17:17am

re: #67 researchok

Beck lost a major platform and Limbaugh preaches to a choir, with an ageing audience.

Nature will takes its course.

As far as Jones goesm he is nowhere near as influential as his predecessors.

Beck wants to eat Alex Jones' lunch, that guy is whip-smart, and he's kinda crazy, but not in the way people think. he's crazy in the way performers and musicians are crazy. His schtick is schtick, and I don't think he believes it, but I think he believes his lies are doing good, if that makes sense. he's fighting the good fight with his best tools, which are his Father Coughlin act and his broadcasting experience. He's a comedy radio guy, that's where he came from. it's no accident that he went from comedy to this dramatic chalkboard scrawling Howard Beale guy, it's all the same skills in play.


I should dig up my favorite radio guy (who has been in radio longer than beck, and actually once recieved a call from beck) and his long thing on beck and what he's doing, he had the only take on Beck that I felt was dead on. That was coming from an industry veteran from age 15, someone who is looking at him nt with a political eye, but from an insider eye whose career has evolved alongside Beck's. (Imagine a 15 year old radio DJ! That's this guy)

72 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:17:29am

re: #69 WindUpBird

oh i have a little motley crue of righties as friends, on these internets :D An objectivist who loves him some Ayn Rand who is a coder, a brilliant and gifted comic artist who is full on Destroy the Fed, a lot of Bush conservatives who would be right at home on LGF. A real estate agent who was a high school friend... and all of them are on board with us on social issues, because, heh, most of them are gay! and they all feel they don't have a party. Gay conservative geeks are all gay and conservative and geeky in wildly different ways. liberal geeks tend to be more predictable

My temple rubbing anger is always against the so-cons. And the fandom is sort of kryptonite for social conservatives. It's not for them. it's everything they hate.

Bingo.

There are far too many lunatics who insist gays are only those who march in the SF parades. They don't realize that there are gay marines and gay 'Hang em high' judges, stock brokers and so on.

I always laugh when I see the Log Cabin Republicans excoriated (on either side of the spectrum). For every member signed up, there are a thousand who have not.

People are much nicer when they are courting large voting blocks.

I would not be surprised to learn gay voters are as likely to be conservative as they are liberal.

Sexual orientation does not upend human nature.

Now there's a whole other topic....

73 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:17:46am

re: #70 RogueOne

Morning all! I have arisen!

Go back to bed.
//

74 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:20:40am

re: #71 WindUpBird

Beck wants to eat Alex Jones' lunch, that guy is whip-smart, and he's kinda crazy, but not in the way people think. he's crazy in the way performers and musicians are crazy. His schtick is schtick, and I don't think he believes it, but I think he believes his lies are doing good, if that makes sense. he's fighting the good fight with his best tools, which are his Father Coughlin act and his broadcasting experience. He's a comedy radio guy, that's where he came from. it's no accident that he went from comedy to this dramatic chalkboard scrawling Howard Beale guy, it's all the same skills in play.

I should dig up my favorite radio guy (who has been in radio longer than beck, and actually once recieved a call from beck) and his long thing on beck and what he's doing, he had the only take on Beck that I felt was dead on. That was coming from an industry veteran from age 15, someone who is looking at him nt with a political eye, but from an insider eye whose career has evolved alongside Beck's. (Imagine a 15 year old radio DJ! That's this guy)

Beck may have one or two more performances, but he's done for, in my opinion.

If he believes his shtick, he'a an idiot.

If he doesn't he's a manipulative SOB who will end up as a footnote.

75 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:21:29am

My Man Mitch:

Daniels to get award from Arab group
[Link: www.indystar.com...]


Gov. Mitch Daniels will be in Washington on May 4 to accept an award from the Arab American Institute Foundation at its annual Kahlil Gibran Spirit of Humanity Awards Gala.

By then, Hoosiers, along with the rest of the nation, might know whether Daniels is a candidate for the GOP nomination in 2012 or yet another Republican who has looked hard at it but passed it by.

Daniels has said he will make a decision after the legislature adjourns Friday.

If Daniels is running, the fact that he's accepting the award says he's a different kind of candidate. Some politicians might avoid attending because of the group's ethnic background, coming up with some plausible sounding scheduling snafu instead.

76 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:22:42am

re: #72 researchok

Two of my best friends on this earth, they're a gay couple in suburban Detroit, one's a veterinarian on the edge of owning his own practice (and a type A leadfoot with a twin turbo BMW, hahah), the other is a mild mannered painter who could be an art professor. They both roll their eyes a bit at the SF scene, they're very midwest, they're liberal in their politics, but conservative in their demeanor. I feel like the scraggly dirtbag that crawled out of the dumpster compared to them, they're just this very pleasant and mellow couple, well put together, who would rather talk about stand up comedians and Michigan restaurants, than any politics.

77 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:24:15am

re: #74 researchok

Beck may have one or two more performances, but he's done for, in my opinion.

If he believes his shtick, he'a an idiot.

If he doesn't he's a manipulative SOB who will end up as a footnote.

beck has a very very advanced production company for doing internet broadcasts. he ha slots of employees, he's saved his money; he's investing in his own brand.

I don't know where his career will end up, but i no way do I think he's going away. He's motivated in that scary unstoppable way.

78 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:25:34am

re: #72 researchok

if you hang out in geek circles with gay people, you eventually learn who the crazy gay geek racists are on the internet. True fact *_*

79 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:26:09am

and I'M GOING

TO BED!

thanks for conversation!

80 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:28:38am

re: #76 WindUpBird

Two of my best friends on this earth, they're a gay couple in suburban Detroit, one's a veterinarian on the edge of owning his own practice (and a type A leadfoot with a twin turbo BMW, hahah), the other is a mild mannered painter who could be an art professor. They both roll their eyes a bit at the SF scene, they're very midwest, they're liberal in their politics, but conservative in their demeanor. I feel like the scraggly dirtbag that crawled out of the dumpster compared to them, they're just this very pleasant and mellow couple, well put together, who would rather talk about stand up comedians and Michigan restaurants, than any politics.

And therein lies reality.

The vast majority of people want to live normal, happy lives with as little conflict as possible.

There is a reason politics is held in such low esteem. Aside from the incessant drone and noise, a real truth escapes us. We're the real outliers. Your friends in the midwest are not.

And on that happy note, I'm off to make breakfast.

No more beer for you.

Later.

81 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:30:43am

re: #70 RogueOne

Morning all! I have arisen!

You might owe me a new monitor after that. ;)

Hello everyone, and happy easter/passover/beltane/sunday!

82 BongCrodny  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:32:59am

re: #70 RogueOne

Morning all! I have arisen!


Jesus Christ, you again?

83 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:34:05am

re: #81 iceweasel

You might owe me a new monitor after that. ;)

Hello everyone, and happy easter/passover/beltane/sunday!

I can't stand easter. I know it's a big deal for my christian friends so I usually keep it to myself. My mom married a minister when I was 12 and the next 6 years easter were spent getting to church at 5 for the sunrise service, then the regular service, then a day spent at nursing homes visiting old people I didn't know.

84 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:36:08am

re: #83 RogueOne

I can't stand easter. I know it's a big deal for my christian friends so I usually keep it to myself. My mom married a minister when I was 12 and the next 6 years easter were spent getting to church at 5 for the sunrise service, then the regular service, then a day spent at nursing homes visiting old people I didn't know.

That would make anyone hate Easter. Most of us, it just means chocolate. at least that's what it means at this atheist house.

85 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:38:02am

re: #84 iceweasel

I guess they were just trying to turn me into a nice person...well, I showed them!

86 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:42:03am

Heh, the autocomplete feature on my cell phone here keeps suggesting éastenders" when I try to type easter. Thanks, UK!/

87 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:45:28am

Samurai umbrella closes down mall:


BURLINGTON (CBS) – State police have located a man who witnesses at the Burlington Mall thought was carrying a rifle; and confirmed the item was actually an umbrella.
....
Everyone inside was told to get out. “We got a call to evacuate the mall there’s a mall running around with a gun,” recalls Dotti Gerrior, who works at the Victoria’s Secret inside the mall.

Police spent the morning questioning close to a dozen people fitting the description, speeding from the scene to surrounding areas and closing off the parking lot outside of the store.

Officers from Burlington, Woburn, Wilmington, State Police, and the ATF all assisted with the search.

SWAT teams were on scene and the state police helicopter was also circling the area.

video of umbrella:

88 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:45:53am

re: #87 RogueOne

and link to story:
[Link: boston.cbslocal.com...]

89 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:50:46am

re: #8 WindUpBird

Easter is about fucking in rabbit costumes, hell yeah

Let's Pretend We're Bunny Rabbits

90 Flounder  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:54:46am

re: #83 RogueOne

Reasons I loved Easter:
Mom's Breakfast (KIELBASA YAY!)
Candy
Toys
Reasons I hate Easter:
Going to Church
I always seem to barf
Going to Church

91 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:56:00am

re: #90 Shropshire_Slasher

Reasons I loved Easter:
Mom's Breakfast (KIELBASA YAY!)
Candy
Toys
Reasons I hate Easter:
Going to Church
I always seem to barf
Going to Church


Perhaps you're drinking WAY too much of the wine there!!!

92 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:56:26am

re: #90 Shropshire_Slasher

Kielbasa for breakfast? Cool. How was it cooked? I can't find any here.

93 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:57:47am

re: #92 iceweasel

Kielbasa for breakfast? Cool. How was it cooked? I can't find any here.

I've used it in an omelet in pace of sausage or ham
Even as a side to an egg dish instead of bacon or link sausages

94 Flounder  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:57:53am

re: #92 iceweasel

Boiled, them cooked in the scrambled eggs. My mom always would make the white kind, I can never find it.
I'm making cinnamon rolls for breakfast this morning with cream cheese frosting!

95 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:59:38am

re: #93 sattv4u2

I've used it in an omelet in pace of sausage or ham
Even as a side to an egg dish instead of bacon or link sausages

That sounds great!

96 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:00:11am

re: #94 Shropshire_Slasher

Boiled, them cooked in the scrambled eggs. My mom always would make the white kind, I can never find it.
I'm making cinnamon rolls for breakfast this morning with cream cheese frosting!

Ooooh, cinnamon rolls. I have to try making them sometime. Yum.

97 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:03:48am

re: #96 iceweasel

Ooooh, cinnamon rolls. I have to try making them sometime. Yum.

Happy Easter to you and Jimmah..
Blueberry cream bread here.. It melts in your mouth

98 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:04:02am

re: #94 Shropshire_Slasher

Boiled, them cooked in the scrambled eggs. My mom always would make the white kind, I can never find it.
I'm making cinnamon rolls for breakfast this morning with cream cheese frosting!

We're doing a brunch when everyone gets finished with church this morning. My contribution is stuffed french toast. I have a blueberry/cream cheese filling and a strawberry/banana/cream cheese and yogurt blend.

99 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:05:15am

re: #96 iceweasel

Ooooh, cinnamon rolls. I have to try making them sometime. Yum.

"MAKING" them !?!?!?

I thought thats why God created Malls and Cinnabons!!
[Link: projects.ajc.com...]

100 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:07:13am

re: #97 HoosierHoops

Happy Easter to you and Jimmah..
Blueberry cream bread here.. It melts in your mouth

Happy Easter Hoops! I owe you an email. Will get to it tonight or tomorrow, I promise.

re: #99 sattv4u2

"MAKING" them !?!?!?

I thought thats why God created Malls and Cinnabons!!
[Link: projects.ajc.com...]

No Cinnabons here. I don't think jimmah has ever had a cinnamon roll-- so he won't have a standard to judge by, hee.

re: #98 RogueOne

We're doing a brunch when everyone gets finished with church this morning. My contribution is stuffed french toast. I have a blueberry/cream cheese filling and a strawberry/banana/cream cheese and yogurt blend.

Wow, that sounds FANTASTIC!

101 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:09:31am

I love Kielbasa. My favorite pizza joint has a specialty pizza with smoked kielbasa, an onion marmalade, and topped with gargonzola and rosemary. One of my favorites.

102 BongCrodny  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:10:46am

When I was a kid, the local radio station in my hometown held an Easter egg hunt every year on the day before Easter. They would hide 30 eggs in various places around town. Each egg held a prize or a gift certificate, and the station manager would read a clue that hinted each egg's location.

You were only allowed to play until you were 12 years old, but I swear I listened to that program every year until I was 16.

All my friends were out getting stoned and drunk, and here I was listening to nursery rhymes in a vain attempt to find one fucking egg.

I must have been the blueprint for late development.

103 Flounder  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:10:50am

re: #101 RogueOne
When I burp, I can almost taste that!!!!

104 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:12:23am

Scott Adams continues to be an idiot, and wow does gawker have a mean streak:

Here is some context: Scott Adams, remember, defended the Republican official who photoshopped Obama's face on a chimp head as "so non-racist." This guy is like if every College Republican chapter president in the world and the most insufferable students in your undergraduate philosophy class, plus fifty-thousand copies of Atlas Shrugged, combined into a voltron and started a blog.

heh.

105 kirkspencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:15:42am

re: #72 researchok

Bingo.

There are far too many lunatics who insist gays are only those who march in the SF parades. They don't realize that there are gay marines and gay 'Hang em high' judges, stock brokers and so on.

I always laugh when I see the Log Cabin Republicans excoriated (on either side of the spectrum). For every member signed up, there are a thousand who have not.

People are much nicer when they are courting large voting blocks.

I would not be surprised to learn gay voters are as likely to be conservative as they are liberal.

Sexual orientation does not upend human nature.

Now there's a whole other topic...

Probably, but Conservative v Liberal is not Democratic vs Republican. We can actually show that with another community - blacks. Numerous polls show that when party is kept out of the question blacks are as conservative on several issues as whites. Yet when voting time comes blacks go 90% Democratic.

There are two possibilities and I find myself wondering which is closer to accurate. Do the conservatives not vote, or do they vote Democratic as the lesser of two evils?

I'm going to guess that this will affect how well the Republican party or its replacement conservative party does once the southern strategy is no longer in play.

106 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:21:36am

re: #104 iceweasel

I have a recipe from Cook's Illustrated for Quick Cinnamon Buns. Do you want it?

107 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:24:26am

re: #105 kirkspencer

Probably, but Conservative v Liberal is not Democratic vs Republican. We can actually show that with another community - blacks. Numerous polls show that when party is kept out of the question blacks are as conservative on several issues as whites. Yet when voting time comes blacks go 90% Democratic.

There are two possibilities and I find myself wondering which is closer to accurate. Do the conservatives not vote, or do they vote Democratic as the lesser of two evils?

I'm going to guess that this will affect how well the Republican party or its replacement conservative party does once the southern strategy is no longer in play.

It's also true that the Latino community is in large part socially conservative, yet the GOP seems to do whatever they can to alienate them. Nate Silver had a great post on this a while ago; basically by 2030 it won't be possible for anyone to win national office without a sizeable chunk of the Latino vote.
Operation Gringo: Can the Republicans Sacrifice the Hispanic Vote and Win the White House?

This is the sort of electoral future the GOP might have to contemplate if they start losing the Hispanic vote by margins of 3:1, 4:1 or more. Giving up on New Mexico, Nevada and Colorado is a feasible, and perhaps even wise, strategy. But if they don't thread the needle just perfectly, and they make it difficult for themselves to win back Florida, while putting Arizona and perhaps even Texas increasingly into play, their task will become nearly impossible.

108 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:24:55am

re: #106 PhillyPretzel

I have a recipe from Cook's Illustrated for Quick Cinnamon Buns. Do you want it?

Yes, please! And thank you.

109 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:26:41am

Quick Cinnamon Buns with Buttermilk Icing
From Cook’s Illustrated May 2002

Makes 8 buns
Melted butter is used in both the filling and the dough and to grease the pan; it’s easiest to melt the total amount (8 tablespoons) at once and measure it out as you need it. The finished buns are best eaten warm, but they hold reasonably well for up to 2 hours.

Ingredients
1tablespoon unsalted butter , melted, for pan
Cinnamon-Sugar Filling
3/4cup dark brown sugar (packed, 5 1/4 ounces)
1/4cup granulated sugar (1 3/4 ounces)
2teaspoons ground cinnamon
1/8teaspoon ground cloves
1/8teaspoon table salt
1tablespoon unsalted butter , melted
Biscuit Dough
2 1/2cups unbleached all-purpose flour (12 1/2 ounces), plus additional flour for work surface
2tablespoons granulated sugar
1 1/4teaspoons baking powder
1/2teaspoon baking soda
1/2teaspoon table salt
1 1/4cups buttermilk
6tablespoons unsalted butter , melted
Icing
2tablespoons cream cheese , softened
2tablespoons buttermilk
1cup confectioners' sugar (4 ounces)

Instructions
1. Adjust oven rack to upper-middle position and heat oven to 425 degrees. Pour 1 tablespoon melted butter in 9-inch nonstick cake pan; brush to coat pan. Spray wire rack with nonstick cooking spray; set aside.

2. To make cinnamon-sugar filling: Combine sugars, spices, and salt in small bowl. Add 1 tablespoon melted butter and stir with fork or fingers until mixture resembles wet sand; set filling mixture aside.

3. To make biscuit dough: Whisk flour, sugar, baking powder, baking soda, and salt in large bowl. Whisk buttermilk and 2 tablespoons melted butter in measuring cup or small bowl. Add liquid to dry ingredients and stir with wooden spoon until liquid is absorbed (dough will look very shaggy), about 30 seconds. Transfer dough to lightly floured work surface and knead until just smooth and no longer shaggy.

4. Pat dough with hands into 12 by 9-inch rectangle. Following illustrations below, fill, roll, cut, and arrange buns in buttered cake pan. Brush with 2 tablespoons remaining melted butter. Bake until edges are golden brown, 23 to 25 minutes. Use offset metal spatula to loosen buns from pan; without separating, slide buns out of pan onto greased cooling rack. Cool about 5 minutes before icing.

5. To make icing and finish buns: While buns are cooling, line rimmed baking sheet with parchment paper (for easy cleanup); set rack with buns over baking sheet. Whisk cream cheese and buttermilk in large nonreactive bowl until thick and smooth (mixture will look like cottage cheese at first). Sift confectioners’ sugar over; whisk until smooth glaze forms, about 30 seconds. Spoon glaze evenly over buns; serve immediately.

110 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:28:34am

re: #109 PhillyPretzel

Favourited. I'm going to try these this week and I'll report back. Thanks again!

111 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:28:47am

There is the recipe for Cinnamon Buns. Enjoy.

112 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:29:40am

I Spy with my little eye, something beginning with G....

Gus is in the house! Yay!

113 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:30:05am

re: #110 iceweasel
Okay. I have not tried it but I do know Cook's Illustrated tests their recipies before they publish them.

114 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:30:28am

re: #112 iceweasel

I Spy with my little eye, something beginning with G...

Gus is in the house! Yay!

Hey Ice. Sent you an email. Short note.

Actually managed to sleep straight through last night. Yip-e.

115 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:31:54am

re: #109 PhillyPretzel

OR

1) go to nearest grocery store
2) purchase
[Link: www.cspinet.org...]
3) preheat oven
4) open package
5) pop them into the oven
6) set timer
7) take out of oven
8) enjoy

116 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:32:49am

re: #115 sattv4u2
The short cut.

117 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:33:04am

re: #114 Gus 802

Hey Ice. Sent you an email. Short note.

Actually managed to sleep straight through last night. Yip-e.

I'm glad you managed to sleep at least. I don't know if Jimmah got much sleep; our cat is still in heat and while I sleep through it the yowling wakes him.
Emailed you back.

118 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:33:51am

re: #117 iceweasel

I'm glad you managed to sleep at least. I don't know if Jimmah got much sleep; our cat is still in heat and while I sleep through it the yowling wakes him.
Emailed you back.

Shoot him

umm,, the cat,, not Jimmah

//

119 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:35:22am

re: #118 sattv4u2

Shoot him

umm,, the cat,, not Jimmah

//

She stands on a chair and poledances. I think it's cute.
(this is the cat we're talking about here)

120 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:37:26am

re: #117 iceweasel

I'm glad you managed to sleep at least. I don't know if Jimmah got much sleep; our cat is still in heat and while I sleep through it the yowling wakes him.
Emailed you back.

A cat in heat will be annoying until...

Mao, mao! Yeah, saw your email. Sent two back at ya'.

121 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:38:30am

re: #120 Gus 802

A cat in heat will be annoying until...

Mao, mao! Yeah, saw your email. Sent two back at ya'.

Liberal scottish kitties say Mao. /

122 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:40:57am

re: #121 iceweasel

Liberal scottish kitties say Mao. /

Stand up, all victims of oppression...

Mao, mao.

//

123 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:55:17am

Our old pal Zombie did a report on Obama's visit to the Bay Area: Flikr pics
Tea Party, Code Pink , and World Can't Wait. Heh

124 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:58:41am

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Our old pal Zombie did a report on Obama's visit to the Bay Area: Flikr pics
Tea Party, Code Pink , and World Can't Wait. Heh

Yep. And guess what? That sign from "World Can't Wait" is correct.

125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:59:22am

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Is it me? Or are the Code Pink chicks hotter now?

126 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:01:29am

Saw a house with a "Don't Tread On Me" flag and a "Jolly Roger" flag.

What. The. Fuck?

Teapartiers are now supporting the Somali pirates?

127 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:03:57am

re: #124 Gus 802

Yep. And guess what? That sign from "World Can't Wait" is correct.

Image: homershirt.png

128 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:04:47am

re: #72 researchok

I remember a New Yorker or Atlantic cartoon on "The Gay Agenda"

8:00 Work
12:00 Lunch
6:00 Dinner
8:00 A movie or drink at the bar
11:00 reading and bed

129 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:04:59am

re: #127 iceweasel

Image: homershirt.png

Yeah. "We" are there because we care about the people of Afghanistan (and Iraq).

//

LOL!

130 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:06:22am

This new image loading feature in the comments section rocks.

131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:06:23am

:::(\_(\
*: (=' :')
•. (,('')('')¤.

132 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:07:35am

re: #131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

:::(_(
*: (=' :')
•. (,('')('')¤.

I don't know what any of that means. :(

133 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:08:11am

re: #125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Is it me? Or are the Code Pink chicks hotter now?

The one looks like my spouses older sister. She's a nut. Know what's more annoying than living next door to a jehovah witness? Being related to a militant wiccan.

134 Winny Spencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:09:05am

re: #133 RogueOne

The one looks like my spouses older sister. She's a nut. Know what's more annoying than living next door to a jehovah witness? Being related to a militant wiccan.

We'll take your word for it. Yikes.

135 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:09:16am

re: #133 RogueOne

The one looks like my spouses older sister. She's a nut. Know what's more annoying than living next door to a jehovah witness? Being related to a militant wiccan.

How can one be a militant wiccan?

136 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:10:49am

I am enjoying bacon and eggs. Been off the meat for six weeks (not strictly or religiously religiously, I just take a break at this time of year.) Makes me enjoy easter breakfast and dinner that much more.

137 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:11:41am

re: #135 iceweasel

How can one be a militant wiccan?

she's into conversion. She's a wiccan version of a jesus freak. She has a spell for every situation and she's not afraid to tell you about it.

138 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:13:48am

re: #137 RogueOne

she's into conversion. She's a wiccan version of a jesus freak. She has a spell for every situation and she's not afraid to tell you about it.

Whoa. The last wiccan I knew wasn't out to convert, but she had no problem claiming that the birds brought her messages.

139 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:16:12am

Instapundit links to the same zombie report and makes no mention of the Tea Party-Code Pink convergence.

140 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:17:34am

re: #139 Killgore Trout

I haven't seen how Code Pink feels toward the President.

141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:21:17am

re: #139 Killgore Trout

Was that a convergence? Or did two totally different groups just show up to bitch at the same dude.

143 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:23:17am

re: #141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was that a convergence? Or did two totally different groups just show up to bitch at the same dude.

It was the same event. Zombie even acknowledges it in her report....

Code Pink and the Tea Party in agreement? Obama makes strange bedfellows.
144 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:25:20am

BTW... today? My bonnet freakin' rocked!

"On the Avenue...
Fifth Avenue...
The photographers will snap us
And you'll find that you're in the Rotogravure."

145 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:27:38am

Larouche supporters have been involved with the Tea Party from the beginning and Code Pink has been trying to join for years. Cindy Sheehan even endorsed the Tea Party candidate in San Fran because he was a Ron Paul Republican.

146 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:29:06am

re: #145 Killgore Trout

Larouche supporters have been involved with the Tea Party from the beginning and Code Pink has been trying to join for years. Cindy Sheehan even endorsed the Tea Party candidate in San Fran because he was a Ron Paul Republican.

I think Cindy Sheehan is mentally ill.

147 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:29:16am

I understand that you can still join the Army if you're under 42 years old.

148 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:30:25am

re: #146 iceweasel

And water is wet.

149 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:31:40am

re: #146 iceweasel

I think Cindy Sheehan is mentally ill.

It's hard to tell. I've thought the same thing about Amy Goodman too. For some people their ideology rules over their ability to reason.

150 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:33:32am

Okay, here's my favorite Atheist Easter joke... (hope lightning doesn't strike me)

Did you hear that Easter was cancelled?
They found the body.

(I am soooo going to burn in Hell for that one)

151 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:34:34am

So I guess Zombie's imagery still works then. Irony.

152 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:38:22am

re: #151 Gus 802

So I guess Zombie's imagery still works then. Irony.

Wankers of the World, unite! You have nothing to lose but your brains!

153 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:40:22am

re: #142 Killgore Trout

Clashes in West Bank after Israeli shot dead near holy site

Looks as if the Israelis were (tragically) wrong IN THIS ONE INSTANCE

Which of course will mean a very strong rebuke and demands from the UN

154 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:42:05am

re: #149 Killgore Trout

It's hard to tell. I've thought the same thing about Amy Goodman too. For some people their ideology rules over their ability to reason.

I hate to judge a parent who has lost a kid in a war, especially a war they disagree with, but her son volunteered and then reenlisted knowing he would be going to Iraq and then died (IIRC) trying to rescue fellow soldiers. Her behavior is an embarrassment to the memory of a brave young man.

155 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:43:09am

Mornin' everyone...damn...I just realized that, if I'd gotten up an hour earlier, I could have walked around the neighborhood and found a shitload of colored eggs. I love easter eggs.

156 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:43:54am

The Tea Party-Code rally was also upset about the arrest of traitor Bradley Manning....
President Obama speaks on Manning and the rule of law - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

157 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:46:19am

re: #155 darthstar

I love easter eggs.
Go to Wal Mart tomorrow

You can get a boatload of them for 75% off!

158 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:47:25am

re: #156 Killgore Trout

The Tea Party-Code rally was also upset about the arrest of traitor Bradley Manning...
President Obama speaks on Manning and the rule of law - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

MikeySCDA did a page on that this morning. I'll say this for Greenwald, he gives the Obama admin as much shit as he gave the Bush one.

159 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:48:18am

re: #156 Killgore Trout

The Tea Party-Code rally was also upset about the arrest of traitor Bradley Manning...
President Obama speaks on Manning and the rule of law - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

Okay, so Obama probably should have added "allegedly"...but Manning released a shitload of classified information to Wikileaks (allegedly) and may have compromised a lot of US International relationships.

160 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:48:54am

Happy Easter everyone. Anyone have some spare aniseed water?

...the most complete instances of Easter-hare ritual surviving in this country are furnished by two striking customs, both of which were once observed on Easter Monday in the county of Leicester, and one of which is still celebrated.

The custom of Hunting the Easter Hare at Leicester is thus described in Throsby's History of the town:

"It had long been customary on Easter Monday for the Mayor and his brethren, in their scarlet gowns, attended by their proper officers, in form, to go to a certain close, called Black-Annis' Bower Close, parcel of, or bordering upon, Leicester Forest, to see the diversion of hunting, or rather the trailing of a cat before a pack of hounds; a custom perhaps originating out of a claim to the royalty of the forest. Hither, on a fair day, resorted the young and old, and those of all denominations. In the greatest harmony the Spring was welcomed. The morning was spent in various amusements and athletic exercises, till a dead cat, about noon, was prepared by aniseed water for commencing the mock-hunting of the hare. In about half-an-hour, after the cat had been trailed at the tail of a horse over the grounds in zig-zag directions, the hounds were directed to the spot where the cat had been trailed from. Here the hounds gave tongue in glorious concert. The people from the various eminences who had placed themselves to behold the sight, with shouts of rapture, gave applause; the horsemen dashing after the hounds through foul passages and over fences, were emulous for taking the lead of their fellows. . . . As the cat had been trailed to the Mayor's door, through some of the principal streets, consequently the dogs and horsemen followed. After the hunt was over, the Mayor gave a handsome treat to his friends; in this manner the day ended."

[Link: en.wikisource.org...]

161 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:49:10am

Yes. Because if a mother loses her son in a war we should expect her to react exactly as we would expect her to act for her loss. Which leaves me wondering how should she react? Is there some kind of social standard that people have to adhere to? Or maybe I'm misreading something here.

162 Achilles Tang  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:49:27am

re: #153 sattv4u2

How are they, these Israelis, different from any other fundamentalist rabble rousers? There was a process where they could go there without problem, but they chose to be intimidating deliberately, presumably since God gave them permission.

That does not excuse someone being shot to death, but I have no respect for these Israeli fanatics who look for conflict because they are above human law..

163 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:50:02am

re: #157 sattv4u2

I love easter eggs.
Go to Wal Mart tomorrow

You can get a boatload of them for 75% off!

I like the ones kids spend hours decorating. Though getting arrested for stealing easter eggs would probably not be the best move.

164 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:50:38am

But like I said. If you're 42 and under you can still enlist in the Army.

165 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:51:22am

re: #161 Gus 802

Yes. Because if a mother loses her son in a war we should expect her to react exactly as we would expect her to act for her loss. Which leaves me wondering how should she react? Is there some kind of social standard that people have to adhere to? Or maybe I'm misreading something here.

I think she's never recovered or even properly grieved, and that she's channeled all that into political activism. I have a hard time criticising her for that very reason. I think she needs help and has been exploited by others.

166 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:52:13am

Even if you don't like Greenwald, seems to me he's spot on about this:

But even more fascinating is Obama's invocation of America's status as a "nation of laws" to justify why Manning must be punished. That would be a very moving homage to the sanctity of the rule of law -- if not for the fact that the person invoking it is the same one who has repeatedly engaged in the most extraordinary efforts to shield Bush officials from judicial scrutiny, investigation, and prosecution of every kind for their war crimes and surveillance felonies. Indeed, the Orwellian platitude used by Obama to justify that immunity -- Look Forward, Not Backward -- is one of the greatest expressions of presidential lawlessness since Richard Nixon told David Frost that "it's not illegal if the President does it."

But it's long been clear that this is Obama's understanding of "a nation of laws": the most powerful political and financial elites who commit the most egregious crimes are to be shielded from the consequences of their lawbreaking -- see his vote in favor of retroactive telecom immunity, his protection of Bush war criminals, and the way in which Wall Street executives were permitted to plunder with impunity -- while the most powerless figures (such as a 23-year-old Army Private and a slew of other low-level whistleblowers) who expose the corruption and criminality of those elites are to be mercilessly punished. And, of course, our nation's lowest persona non grata group -- accused Muslim Terrorists -- are simply to be encaged for life without any charges. Merciless, due-process-free punishment is for the powerless; full-scale immunity is for the powerful. "Nation of laws" indeed.

167 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:52:16am

re: #162 Naso Tang

How are they, these Israelis, different from any other fundamentalist rabble rousers

What part of "Looks as if the Israelis were (tragically) wrong " didn't you get?

168 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:53:17am

re: #165 iceweasel

I think she's never recovered or even properly grieved, and that she's channeled all that into political activism. I have a hard time criticising her for that very reason. I think she needs help and has been exploited by others.

Who am I to judge. There are different people in this world and she's one of them. If I expected a homogeneous version of humanity then, especially on this issue, I might as well start reading Sarah Palin's books and going to her rallies.

169 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:54:16am

re: #168 Gus 802

Who am I to judge. There are different people in this world and she's one of them. If I expected a homogeneous version of humanity then, especially on this issue, I might as well start reading Sarah Palin's books and going to her rallies.

Gus Goes Rogue!

170 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:54:29am

re: #158 iceweasel

MikeySCDA did a page on that this morning. I'll say this for Greenwald, he gives the Obama admin as much shit as he gave the Bush one.

I have no problem giving Greenwald props for opposing America no matter who the President is. Ron Paul, Code Pink, et al have an ideology to cling to unlike the hapless Tea Partiers who only oppose America when a Democrat is in the White House.

171 Achilles Tang  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:56:08am

re: #167 sattv4u2

How are they, these Israelis, different from any other fundamentalist rabble rousers

What part of "Looks as if the Israelis were (tragically) wrong " didn't you get?

I got it and wasn't meaning to be critical of you. Just venting at such unnecessary events.

172 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:56:19am
173 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:56:28am

re: #170 Killgore Trout

I have no problem giving Greenwald props for opposing America no matter who the President is. Ron Paul, Code Pink, et al have an ideology to cling to unlike the hapless Tea Partiers who only oppose America when a Democrat is in the White House.

Define "opposing America".

174 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:56:44am

And on that note, shower and shave time!

175 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:58:22am

re: #172 Killgore Trout
They have the makings for some good salads.

176 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:58:26am

re: #150 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay, here's my favorite Atheist Easter joke... (hope lightning doesn't strike me)

Did you hear that Easter was cancelled?
They found the body.

(I am sooo going to burn in Hell for that one)

Hellbound video game nerds, unite:

Image: 5wYPS.jpg

177 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:58:26am

re: #170 Killgore Trout

I have no problem giving Greenwald props for opposing America

And this is where we disagree. He opposes an America that violates her own core values, freedom of speech and civil liberties. So do I. But I don't want to fight this morning, about GG or anything else.

GG should get props for not being one of those liberals who mysteriously shut up about Gitmo once Obama was elected, or being one of those conservatives who suddenly cared about civil liberties and the rule of law once Obama was elected.

178 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:00:40am

re: #173 Gus 802

Define "opposing America".

Well, blind support for manning who endangered his fellow soldiers and country by stealing and publishing classified information is one example.
In Greenwald's article he also boo hoo's that terrorists are being killed on the battlefield. Greenwald is a complete douche.

179 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:01:37am

re: #177 iceweasel

And this is where we disagree. He opposes an America that violates her own core values, freedom of speech and civil liberties. So do I. But I don't want to fight this morning, about GG or anything else.

GG should get props for not being one of those liberals who mysteriously shut up about Gitmo once Obama was elected, or being one of those conservatives who suddenly cared about civil liberties and the rule of law once Obama was elected.

I don't have problems with people I consider "true believers". Even if I disagree with their views they take principled stands and remain consistent, I like that. I may not vote for them but I respect them.

180 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:02:01am

re: #165 iceweasel

I think she's never recovered or even properly grieved, and that she's channeled all that into political activism. I have a hard time criticising her for that very reason. I think she needs help and has been exploited by others.

All very true, but she has also very actively exploited herself. Everyone has choices in this world and swapping spit with Chavez should never be one of them. That was one of her lowest and most insane moments.

181 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:02:19am

re: #178 Killgore Trout

Well, blind support for manning who endangered his fellow soldiers and country by stealing and publishing classified information is one example.
In Greenwald's article he also boo hoo's that terrorists are being killed on the battlefield. Greenwald is a complete douche.

quit beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel!

182 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:04:06am

So how's everyone's fertility festival day going so far? Today is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox...funny how the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox always manages to land on Easter Sunday. How does that work?

Anyway, I'll be planting some strawberries I bought for my wife and dropping some herbs in a large planter today.

183 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:05:15am

re: #179 RogueOne

I don't have problems with people I consider "true believers". Even if I disagree with their views they take principled stands and remain consistent, I like that. I may not vote for them but I respect them.

Yeah, same here. Also applies to people here -- you and I only agree on a few issues, but there's probably more overlap than we think, and we're both passionate. I like people who disagree with me so long as we can do it in respectful ways. I learn more that way.

184 Ericus58  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:05:41am

Here's something to celebrate on Easter:

Giffords standing on own, trying to improve gait
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

185 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:07:10am

re: #184 Ericus58

Here's something to celebrate on Easter:

Giffords standing on own, trying to improve gait
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Go Gabrielle! Awesome news!

186 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:07:19am

re: #184 Ericus58
That is wonderful news.

187 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:12:16am

re: #178 Killgore Trout

Well, blind support for manning who endangered his fellow soldiers and country by stealing and publishing classified information is one example.
In Greenwald's article he also boo hoo's that terrorists are being killed on the battlefield. Greenwald is a complete douche.

I think going in to fight a war in Iraq on the basis of false fake intel and WMDs did a better job of endangering soldiers. Which is not to give Manning a free pass. But it is relative. Given that, technically speaking Manning is still innocent until proven guilty -- think due process and the US Constitution. Even in a military tribunal. He sounds guilty to me but that's irrelevant in a truly blind (allegedly) justice system.

188 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:12:59am

This fellow, Pastor Tim Keller, just spoke on This Week this morning. I never heard of him before, but what a refreshing dialogue he had with Amanpour. He spoke of kindness, helping the poor, giving to charity, bringing civility back to society, respecting the office of President even if you didn't vote for him. Lots of good stuff.

He followed Franklin Graham whom I had to fast forward through. I can't even stomach listening to his Christian-only, everyone else is going to hell diatribes.

189 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:13:35am

re: #166 iceweasel

Even if you don't like Greenwald, seems to me he's spot on about this:

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that nobody was paying much attention at all to Wikileaks (and stuff Assange presumably got from Manning) even during the "Collateral Murder" release. It was basically, "Tsk tsk, one ought not release such things. Freedom of the press and all that, but they have a responsibility blah blah etc etc."

There was stuff released around and before that time that really did put people in danger, but it wasn't until the massive release of the State Dept. cables that everyone went banana-pants and Julian Assange became Enemy #1, and Bradley Manning Enemy #1.5.

The main takeaway I culled from what I read of the State Dept. cables is that pretty much every world leader and governmental agency is every bit as corrupt, incompetent, stupid, insane, and potentially dangerous as we've always suspected; everyone in power knows it; and they all bend over backwards to protect themselves and each other even as they plot ways to benefit from their eventual downfall.

These documents are not something that can be dismissed as forgeries - they are a source of real, undeniable embarrassment to various powers that be. THAT, as far as I can tell, is why Manning and Assange are up Shit Creek without a paddle.

Now, please, as an act of kindness: tell me where I'm wrong.

190 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:14:23am

re: #187 Gus 802

Manning is receiving due process and his constitutional rights are being observed. The system is working despite the bleating from his supporters.

191 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:14:39am

re: #189 negativ

I think you're right about that.

192 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:15:26am

re: #190 Killgore Trout

Manning is receiving due process and his constitutional rights are being observed. The system is working despite the bleating from his supporters.

OK, I agree with that. Perhaps they can speed things up and give the boob a trial instead of letting this linger for so long.

193 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:15:44am

re: #182 darthstar

So how's everyone's fertility festival day going so far?

So far? I remain un-laid.

194 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:16:23am

re: #192 Gus 802

OK, I agree with that. Perhaps they can speed things up and give the boob a trial instead of letting this linger for so long.

More or less. I have to check because we're known for abusing prisoners. That's a fact.

195 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:17:15am

re: #192 Gus 802

OK, I agree with that. Perhaps they can speed things up and give the boob a trial instead of letting this linger for so long.

It takes time. They can't afford to rush this case and fuck it up. It's a huge crime and they need to get it right.

196 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:17:36am

re: #194 Gus 802

That is what America is famous for.

/

197 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:18:05am

We need some music.

198 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:19:03am

re: #196 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That is what America is famous for.

/

We do have a huge problem with prison rape. It's been posted about here before. I know RogueOne has the stats but I can try and find them.

199 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:19:27am
200 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:19:54am

re: #197 Gus 802

201 wee fury  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:20:23am

Happy Easter everyone!

202 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:21:49am

re: #200 iceweasel

[Video]

Damn straight. America. Love it or leave it.

"You're either with us or against us."

203 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:23:40am

re: #182 darthstar
I am dealing with matzah overload. I am having rye bread cravings. This is not good.

204 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:27:35am

re: #203 PhillyPretzel

I am dealing with matzah overload. I am having rye bread cravings. This is not good.

Here's a recipe for rye bread from the smitten kitchen. I haven't tried it yet but I've had good success with other recipes from her site.

205 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:27:51am

Duck confit matzo ball soup from last night.

killer fuckin' passover dinner.

206 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:28:46am

re: #193 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So far? I remain un-laid.

You're a good egg...be patient.

207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:29:46am

re: #206 darthstar

Parts of me appear to have been dyed blue...
/

208 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:30:16am

re: #182 darthstar

So how's everyone's fertility festival day going so far? Today is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox...funny how the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox always manages to land on Easter Sunday. How does that work?

Anyway, I'll be planting some strawberries I bought for my wife and dropping some herbs in a large planter today.

I plan to drink heavily starting about noon, and stopping about 4 or 5pm so that I won't be a complete mess at 7am tomorrow. During that time, I will probably engage my dog in various rough-house shenanigans that will amuse him greatly but will inevitably result in various scratches and bruises for me that will be questioned by my co-workers, who will be skeptical of my explanation. I will also probably play some Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood on the main PC while simultaneously intertubing on the laptop at my left. All the while, I will think about how I'd really like to move out of this shitty apartment that was apparently designed and built by a Soviet-era construction crew, all of whom escaped from a Siberian prison camp due to a serendipitous bureaucratic accident. I will wash some laundry and once it's done, I won't fold it properly, and I will only iron and hang up the "nice" shirts that I won't be wearing any time soon.

Then I will imagine what it would be like to have a girlfriend, or even just a friend, (and, if I'm feeling sufficiently decadent, a family) and that will somehow lead me to reading Charles Bukowski and Dylan Thomas which will in turn remind me that this is the best of all possible worlds, in both the optimistic sense and the pessimistic one.

209 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:30:45am

re: #204 iceweasel

Here's a recipe for rye bread from the smitten kitchen. I haven't tried it yet but I've had good success with other recipes from her site.

Oh hey, there's a rumor going round that you had your first try at kosher kishkas (a/k/a haggis) LOL How'd that go?

210 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:30:52am

re: #205 darthstar

Duck confit matzo ball soup from last night.

killer fuckin' passover dinner.

Impressive. That looks professional.

211 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:31:10am

re: #203 PhillyPretzel

I am dealing with matzah overload. I am having rye bread cravings. This is not good.

Went to a friend's house for passover last night. Duck confit mazto balls (linked above), chopped chicken liver & matzo napoleans - deep fried on borscht...frickin' delicious.

212 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:32:26am

re: #199 Gus 802

Image: abu-ghraib-leash-715453.jpg

....and they went through the court system.

213 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:33:21am

re: #210 Killgore Trout

Impressive. That looks professional.

Nope...just happen to hang with other people who like to cook. My buddy Mitch likes to hold passover dinners that are less than traditional...I often find myself spending most of the evening standing next to him at the stove...drinking good wine and prepping food. He "built" a large table for last night...fit 33 people around it.

214 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:34:21am

re: #212 Killgore Trout

I thought that that particular kerfuffle was more anti-Bush than it was anti- torture.

It was stupid. It was inhumane. It was wrong.

215 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:35:14am

re: #209 marjoriemoon

Oh hey, there's a rumor going round that you had your first try at kosher kishkas (a/k/a haggis) LOL How'd that go?

It went great! Thanks for asking. I'm still among the living. :)
How are you? What's shaking?

216 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:35:26am

re: #207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Parts of me appear to have been dyed blue...
/

You can rub that off yourself.

217 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:36:01am

It continues:

House Republicans face backlash at home over budget plan
The lawmakers, back in their districts during the Congress recess, are confronted with tough questions from constituents about the GOP proposal that would turn Medicare into a voucher system and reduce taxes for the wealthy.
218 Winny Spencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:36:22am

re: #208 negativ

"The journey of life... it can be hard for those of us who travel alone."
- Hercule Poirot

219 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:37:24am

Oops, let me try that again....
House Republicans face backlash at home over budget plan

The lawmakers, back in their districts during the Congress recess, are confronted with tough questions from constituents about the GOP proposal that would turn Medicare into a voucher system and reduce taxes for the wealthy.
220 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:37:53am

re: #215 iceweasel

It went great! Thanks for asking. I'm still among the living. :)
How are you? What's shaking?

hehe All is good here. Happy Easter to you and all my lizard friends, btw!

221 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:37:55am

re: #212 Killgore Trout

...and they went through the court system.

And a) it didn't go up the chain of command; b) the private contractors at AG were never charged and c) Lynndie England became the convenient scapegoat.

222 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:38:29am

re: #200 iceweasel

[Video]

I wonder if anyone has ever noticed that nobody says "fuck yeah!" to "books".

Obliquely related, I am dying to see The Book of Mormon.

223 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:39:16am
224 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:40:34am

re: #221 Gus 802

And a) it didn't go up the chain of command; b) the private contractors at AG were never charged and c) Lynndie England became the convenient scapegoat.

Agreed. I think it should have gone higher up. The system isn't perfect but we do try to be as just as possible.

225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:41:13am

re: #221 Gus 802

I think it helped that Lynndie England was a fuckin' moron.

226 Gus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:41:59am

re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think it helped that Lynndie England was a fuckin' moron.

That and being of low rank, female, and looking rather butch. Methinks.

227 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:44:27am

re: #218 Winny Spencer

"The journey of life... it can be hard for those of us who travel alone."
- Hercule Poirot

"Real loneliness is not necessarily limited to when you are alone."
- Charles Bukowski

228 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:44:35am

[Link: www.flickr.com...]
It does not need a decription. :(

229 BishopX  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:51:54am

re: #189 negativ

I think the state dept cables have been instrumental in encouraging the Arab spring revolts. It's one thing to have rumors and conspiracy theories about how good your countries elites have it. It's another to have Us documents describing it. Most of the stuff described in the documents is considerably more important to people outside of the US than to to US citizens. I mean descriptions of Ben Ali's gardens and investment portfolio aren't going to change the way we look at how our government is structured.

230 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:57:59am

re: #223 darthstar

Woman with a large mouth for FBV

I've always been a little freaked out by Julia Roberts' disturbingly large mouth.

Image: 11114270.jpg

Why so serious?

231 RogueOne  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:04:41am

Gotta run folks. Enjoy the rest of the day!

232 Ericus58  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:14:12am

re: #230 negativ

I've always been a little freaked out by Julia Roberts' disturbingly large mouth.

Image: 11114270.jpg

Why so serious?

Heh!

I luvs me sum Julia though....
Between Julia and Sandra B.......

...... mama.

233 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:15:08am

Alouette has a great thread.

A Jewish man was murdered by Palestinian animals who then thought it would be peachy to light the tomb of the Patriarch Joseph on fire.

So the tomb of the Patriarch Joseph is desecrated and lit on fire after a Jew was murdered. What uproar is there? Where is the hand wringing from all of those guardians of tolerance. Where is 1/1000 of the uproar that would occur if a minor mosque had been slightly vandalized after a copy of the Koran had been damaged?

234 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:31:10am

re: #232 Ericus58

Between those two, there's no question: Sandra.

Not as if I'm likely to ever... oh never mind.

235 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:36:04am

re: #233 LudwigVanQuixote

Alouette has a great thread.

A Jewish man was murdered by Palestinian animals who then thought it would be peachy to light the tomb of the Patriarch Joseph on fire.

So the tomb of the Patriarch Joseph is desecrated and lit on fire after a Jew was murdered. What uproar is there? Where is the hand wringing from all of those guardians of tolerance. Where is 1/1000 of the uproar that would occur if a minor mosque had been slightly vandalized after a copy of the Koran had been damaged?

The Palestinian Authority police attacked the worshipers as they exited Joseph's Tomb, killing one man and injuring many others. Israel wants to be able to police the area around Joseph's Tomb, including a nearby yeshiva. Nablus is P.A. territory.

The IDF Central Command prohibits Jews from entering the area without prior clearance. These people who went to the tomb did not have clearance. At any rate, the P.A. security forces knew why they were there, to pray, and were not engaging in any kind of terrorist activity. They were told to leave and when they didn't, they opened fire. Even without clearance, even if they shouldn't have been there, they didn't deserve this.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

236 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:36:57am

re: #211 darthstar

Went to a friend's house for passover last night. Duck confit mazto balls (linked above), chopped chicken liver & matzo napoleans - deep fried on borscht...frickin' delicious.

My daughter is making zucchini fritters for lunch. Fried in chicken schmaltz. I think I'll have some chocolate instead.

We have always used olive oil on Passover to fry stuff. Chicken schmaltz is just gross, but some say that it's very tasty, especially the little fried skin bits.

237 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:40:13am

re: #233 LudwigVanQuixote

Alouette has a great thread.

A Jewish man was murdered by Palestinian animals who then thought it would be peachy to light the tomb of the Patriarch Joseph on fire.

So the tomb of the Patriarch Joseph is desecrated and lit on fire after a Jew was murdered. What uproar is there? Where is the hand wringing from all of those guardians of tolerance. Where is 1/1000 of the uproar that would occur if a minor mosque had been slightly vandalized after a copy of the Koran had been damaged?

Some people on this thread think that the Breslovers totally asked for it. Because they sneaked in to pray and stuff. A freaking war crime! This proves that Israeli religious fanatics are just as horrible as any other religious fanatics in Afghanistan and Texas.

//

238 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:50:04am

Heh...just turned on Fox News Sunday and Brit "The Walrus" Hume just said Obama would get beaten badly if the election was today. Even Juan Williams guffawed at that statement and told Hume he was full of shit.

239 BishopX  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:50:59am

re: #237 Alouette

When you sneak into somewhere where every tells you you're probably going to get shot, don't be surprised if you get shot. I have very little sympathy for them.

240 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:51:26am

re: #237 Alouette

Some people on this thread think that the Breslovers totally asked for it. Because they sneaked in to pray and stuff. A freaking war crime! This proves that Israeli religious fanatics are just as horrible as any other religious fanatics in Afghanistan and Texas.

//

Back before the Civil Rights Act was enacted, Blacks could not eat at lunch counters with whites, ride buses, drink at public fountains or use public restrooms. Some brave people like Rosa Parks and John Lewis decided that despite the law, despite the threats and murders, they would stand up (or sit down as they case maybe!) for their rights as citizens. They are American heroes.

Just a bit of perspective.

241 Ericus58  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:52:52am

re: #239 BishopX

When you sneak into somewhere where every tells you you're probably going to get shot, don't be surprised if you get shot. I have very little sympathy for them.

Well, Happy Fucking Easter to you too.....

242 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:54:03am

re: #239 BishopX

When you sneak into somewhere where every tells you you're probably going to get shot, don't be surprised if you get shot. I have very little sympathy for them.

Because sneaking into a holy site to pray just totally deserves capital punishment.

243 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:54:12am

re: #239 BishopX

When you sneak into somewhere where every tells you you're probably going to get shot, don't be surprised if you get shot. I have very little sympathy for them.

And you say that having no idea why the security clearance wasn't coordinated.

I guess police brutality is just an American notion.

244 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:55:25am

What is the "sneaking" BS about? No one snuck into anywhere.

245 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:56:48am

re: #239 BishopX

When you sneak into somewhere where every tells you you're probably going to get shot, don't be surprised if you get shot. I have very little sympathy for them.

I have sympathy for all victims of violent crime - and it doesn't matter if the person is an asshole in your opinion or not - a victim is a victim. That said, I don't see how politicizing a murder does anything to respect the victim or their family. Mourn the loss, condemn the crime, and leave it at that.

246 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:06:00am

re: #245 darthstar

I have sympathy for all victims of violent crime - and it doesn't matter if the person is an asshole in your opinion or not - a victim is a victim. That said, I don't see how politicizing a murder does anything to respect the victim or their family. Mourn the loss, condemn the crime, and leave it at that.

In normal situations that would be the case, but not in this part of the world, although I appreciate your sentiment.

247 BishopX  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:08:32am

re: #244 marjoriemoon

What is the "sneaking" BS about? No one snuck into anywhere.

My apologies, I took it from Alouette's comment. Going back and reading the original Ynet story, it seems pretty clear that the Hassadim knew the risk's they were taking and decided to do it anyway. From Ynet:

[T]he brother of the 17 year-old injured in the incident told Ynet that his brother and his friends went into Nablus without first coordinating the visit and knew that what they were doing was dangerous.

"When the entries are coordinated nothing happens, this time they entered without coordinating, it was criminal on their part," he explained. "To them this is all about the action and these are the consequences when you run wild."

It's horrible that people got killed over this, but they knew the risks and took them anyway.

248 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:08:37am

re: #246 marjoriemoon

I'd add there is a whole segment of the population who believe murder is a religious duty, to be celebrated.

Literally.

249 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:12:18am

re: #247 BishopX

My apologies, I took it from Alouette's comment. Going back and reading the original Ynet story, it seems pretty clear that the Hassadim knew the risk's they were taking and decided to do it anyway. From Ynet:

It's horrible that people got killed over this, but they knew the risks and took them anyway.

They are guilty of being stupid.

It is true they should not have gone. Clearly, they were not armed (they would have shot back) so the only conclusion is that they were summarily executed.

It is clear they did not deserve to be murdered and it is also true the religious site should not have been desecrated.

I wonder why that happened?

250 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:15:08am

re: #249 researchok

They are guilty of being stupid.

It is true they should not have gone. Clearly, they were not armed (they would have shot back) so the only conclusion is that they were summarily executed.

It is clear they did not deserve to be murdered and it is also true the religious site should not have been desecrated.

I wonder why that happened?

What I don't understand is why some people assume that it's "normal" for the Palestinians to murder any Jew that happens to cross their path.

251 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:17:36am

re: #247 BishopX

My apologies, I took it from Alouette's comment. Going back and reading the original Ynet story, it seems pretty clear that the Hassadim knew the risk's they were taking and decided to do it anyway. From Ynet:

It's horrible that people got killed over this, but they knew the risks and took them anyway.

To blame the victims is ludicrous and until a formal investigation is concluded, I'm not conceding your point.

According to that article, worshipers visit the tomb every one or two months. Opening fire on them because all the Ts weren't crossed shouldn't be justified by anyone.

252 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:19:21am

re: #248 researchok

I'd add there is a whole segment of the population who believe murder is a religious duty, to be celebrated.

Literally.

This probably wasn't the motivation, though I don't know. It's a matter of training of these police, I think, and what Alouette just said. The knee jerk reaction is to shoot first and ask questions later.

253 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:19:23am

I also wonder where the throngs of Muslims and Muslim clerics who denounced the desecration are and I wonder where the throngs are who volunteer to help rebuild the and restore the tomb.

Sad to say, radicals and agenda driven groups are in control.

I feel terrible for the 'little guy' of Palestine, the guy who wants to workm take care of his family, maybe own house and build something for his kids. Neither he or his kids have a shot at any of those things or at having a normal life, happy life.

Tragic.

254 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:19:36am

re: #250 Alouette

What I don't understand is why some people assume that it's "normal" for the Palestinians to murder any Jew that happens to cross their path.

The attitude is almost that it's acceptable unless the Jew knows his place and stays out of the way.
re: #251 marjoriemoon

To blame the victims is ludicrous and until a formal investigation is concluded, I'm not conceding your point.

According to that article, worshipers visit the tomb every one or two months. Opening fire on them because all the Ts weren't crossed shouldn't be justified by anyone.


I'm with ya.

255 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:20:51am

re: #252 marjoriemoon

This probably wasn't the motivation, though I don't know. It's a matter of training of these police, I think, and what Alouette just said. The knee jerk reaction is to shoot first and ask questions later.

You may be right, though i'm not so sure the police were unaware of who they were shooting at.

And that highlights the law of unintended consequences.

256 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:24:30am
258 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:25:09am

And what about the last time a Jew visited in places where "they shouldn't be." The Temple we built.

[Link: www.myjewishlearning.com...]

When Ariel Sharon went to the Temple Mount in 2000, it sparked a war that went on for years. This is insanity.

On the morning of September 28, 2000, a six-member Likud Knesset delegation led by the then-leader of the Israeli opposition, Ariel Sharon, paid a visit to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. From the moment the plans for the visit had been made public four days earlier, there was concern among Israeli security officials that the heavily media-covered visit might inflame some Palestinian nationalist sentiments because it would be viewed as a deliberately provocative symbol of Israeli control of all of Jerusalem, east and west.

These concerns prompted consultations on the matter between Israeli and Palestinian officials, culminating in a telephone conversation between Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami and the head of the Palestinian Preventive Security Organization, Jibril Rajoub, in which Rajoub indicated, "If Mr. Sharon refrains from entering the Mosques on Temple Mount, there will not be any problem." Only then did the Israeli police agree to permit the visit--along with a 1,500 member police escort, just in case.

Despite the fact that Sharon avoided the mosque, there was a problem anyway which culminated into years of suicide bombings.

259 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:26:06am

re: #255 researchok

You may be right, though i'm not so sure the police were unaware of who they were shooting at.

And that highlights the law of unintended consequences.

I didn't mean that. They were aware of who they were. They come all the time. The training they need is not to shoot first.

260 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:26:21am

re: #255 researchok

re: #254 reine.de.tout

There is no excuse for this shit. None. You don't shoot down unarmed worshipers at their holy site and then burn the site. There is no justification.

261 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:26:50am

re: #260 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #254 reine.de.tout

There is no excuse for this shit. None. You don't shoot down unarmed worshipers at their holy site and then burn the site. There is no justification.

Oh, agreed!
Did I say something that made you think otherwise?

262 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:27:06am

re: #257 Alouette

Alouette's granddaughter: a religious fanatic committing a war crime in Hebron.

Ooo what a cute baby! (Ok, not quite a baby, but Oh-So-Cute).

263 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:27:56am

re: #262 marjoriemoon

Ooo what a cute baby! (Ok, not quite a baby, but Oh-So-Cute).

Is that the remnants of a manicure I see on her nails?
LOL.
too cute.

264 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:27:56am

re: #260 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #254 reine.de.tout

There is no excuse for this shit. None. You don't shoot down unarmed worshipers at their holy site and then burn the site. There is no justification.

They will get a total free pass and everyone will blame the Breslovers for going there to pray. They totally deserved it, because they're all religious and stuff.

//is this necessary?

265 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:27:58am

re: #261 reine.de.tout

Oh, agreed!
Did I say something that made you think otherwise?

Not at all Reine. I was agreeing with you.

266 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:29:07am

re: #258 marjoriemoon

And what about the last time a Jew visited in places where "they shouldn't be." The Temple we built.

[Link: www.myjewishlearning.com...]

When Ariel Sharon went to the Temple Mount in 2000, it sparked a war that went on for years. This is insanity.

Despite the fact that Sharon avoided the mosque, there was a problem anyway which culminated into years of suicide bombings.

Sharon's visit was a catalyst, not the cause.

Further, we have to expect civilized behavior no matter the transgression.

The civilized world cannot make exceptions

267 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:29:09am

re: #260 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #254 reine.de.tout

There is no excuse for this shit. None. You don't shoot down unarmed worshipers at their holy site and then burn the site. There is no justification.

(Reine wasn't excusing it tho... I know you're pissed heh)

268 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:29:43am

re: #263 reine.de.tout

Is that the remnants of a manicure I see on her nails?
LOL.
too cute.

Yes, her mom paints her nails. :)

269 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:30:04am

re: #264 Alouette

They will get a total free pass and everyone will blame the Breslovers for going there to pray. They totally deserved it, because they're all religious and stuff.

//is this necessary?

Yeah, and the Palis are all religious and stuff too, only Hasidim are unarmed and peaceful.

It is just obvious genteel and not so genteel hatred of our People. I am sick of it. We have an army for a reason. It is not as if the louts who think that way will hate us ant more than they do now. Give the animals something to cry about and end it.

270 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:30:25am

re: #267 marjoriemoon

(Reine wasn't excusing it tho... I know you're pissed heh)

See above. I was agreeing with her.

271 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:30:38am

re: #257 Alouette

Alouette's granddaughter: a religious fanatic committing a war crime in Hebron.

What? No rocks, slingshots or knives?
//

272 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:31:08am

re: #266 researchok

Sharon's visit was a catalyst, not the cause.

Further, we have to expect civilized behavior no matter the transgression.

The civilized world cannot make exceptions

Sharon's visit to our holiest site that some other barbaric culture squats on.

273 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:32:20am

re: #272 LudwigVanQuixote

Sharon's visit to our holiest site that some other barbaric culture squats on.

Nice nuance.
//

274 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:33:42am

re: #273 researchok

Nice nuance.
//

NO nuance. We should not have to come as beggars to our holiest places. No other major culture is expected to do this. The fact we accept that is a sign of how little we believe in ourselves.

275 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:33:58am

re: #266 researchok

Sharon's visit was a catalyst, not the cause.

Further, we have to expect civilized behavior no matter the transgression.

The civilized world cannot make exceptions

If you're an Arab living in the territories at the time, it was the indeed the cause.

Every thumb in the eye, every insult, every poor word is a reason to kill. It's a hellofa way to run a society.

276 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:34:30am

re: #245 darthstar

I have sympathy for all victims of violent crime - and it doesn't matter if the person is an asshole in your opinion or not - a victim is a victim. That said, I don't see how politicizing a murder does anything to respect the victim or their family. Mourn the loss, condemn the crime, and leave it at that.

The "politicization" of this came at the time these people were shot - not by anyone talking about it now.

277 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:35:14am

re: #268 Alouette

Yes, her mom paints her nails. :)

I always painted my daughter's nails too. She loved it.

278 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:35:38am

re: #274 LudwigVanQuixote

NO nuance. We should not have to come as beggars to our holiest places. No other major culture is expected to do this. The fact we accept that is a sign of how little we believe in ourselves.

Lots of truth to that.

Israel never brings the fight to them.

Bad idea.

279 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:37:22am

re: #275 marjoriemoon

If you're an Arab living in the territories at the time, it was the indeed the cause.

Every thumb in the eye, every insult, every poor word is a reason to kill. It's a hellofa way to run a society.

The intifada was planned long before Sharon's visit

280 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:41:08am

re: #274 LudwigVanQuixote

By the way, you do realize I was being sarcastic, right?

281 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:43:05am

re: #280 researchok

By the way, you do realize I was being sarcastic, right?

of course. We're tight mate.

282 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:43:42am

re: #281 LudwigVanQuixote

of course. We're tight mate.

Great minds and all that.

283 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:45:41am

Ludwig: I understand the anger, but that comment was really way over the line. Please don't do this.

284 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:46:22am

It alway astonishes me to see the lengths people will go to make the Israelis and Palestinians moral equals.

You have no idea how immoral that is, the need to do that.

It is as if black and white, right and wrong are somehow bad things.

285 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:49:29am

re: #256 LudwigVanQuixote

So the Dome of the Rock and Masjid al-Aqsa are "abominations" that need to be destroyed, and if there are riots over that by the "Palis" then they should be napalmed. And that got two updings.

That was enlightening. At least I know where a few people stand now. I thought you guys were better than this. Guess I was wrong—my mistake.

I've seen enough for one day.

286 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:52:27am

re: #285 CuriousLurker

So the Dome of the Rock and Masjid al-Aqsa are "abominations" that need to be destroyed, and if there are riots over that by the "Palis" then they should be napalmed. And that got two updings.

That was enlightening. At least I know where a few people stand now. I thought you guys were better than this. Guess I was wrong—my mistake.

I've seen enough for one day.

You are conflating the religious with the political- and that is exactly what the extremists on every side want to happen.

Never a good idea no matter who does it.

287 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:59:57am

In defense of LVQ, one remark/comment does not define or redefine an individual. We know LVQ, his passion for justice and his commitment to truth.

No one misspoken remark- or ten- will not change that.

288 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:01:47am

re: #285 CuriousLurker

So the Dome of the Rock and Masjid al-Aqsa are "abominations" that need to be destroyed, and if there are riots over that by the "Palis" then they should be napalmed. And that got two updings.

That was enlightening. At least I know where a few people stand now. I thought you guys were better than this. Guess I was wrong—my mistake.

I've seen enough for one day.

Come back. Lots of diversity of opinion here. Your input is valued and needed.

289 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:02:08am

PIMF

No one misspoken remark- or ten- will not change that.

290 BishopX  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:03:19am

The thing that gets me is that people are conflating the shooting and the fire. Who put out the fire? The Palestinian security forces and Palestinian firefighters. Who shot at the Hasidim? The Palestinian security forces. They get all of the blame for one thing and none of the credit for the other.

291 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:03:41am

re: #286 researchok

You are conflating the religious with the political- and that is exactly what the extremists on every side want to happen.

Never a good idea no matter who does it.

I'm not conflating anything. What Ludwig said was very clear. It was extreme and way out of line. It doesn't make me happy because it pretty much destroyed my respect for him and makes me see him in a completely different light.

I'm 100% sure that if I'd made a similar statement people would drastically reassess their opinions of me as well. If people want extremism to stop then they should damned well stop saying extreme things.

I'm going to leave now before I lose respect for anyone else.

292 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:04:06am

re: #288 iceweasel

Come back. Lots of diversity of opinion here. Your input is valued and needed.

CL is cool. She'll be back.

Hell, I come back and I get beat up all the time!

293 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:05:15am

re: #292 researchok

CL is cool. She'll be back.

Hell, I come back and I get beat up all the time!

Hey, I've been beat up here myself!

{reasearchok}
{CL}

294 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:06:58am

re: #291 CuriousLurker

I'm not conflating anything. What Ludwig said was very clear. It was extreme and way out of line. It doesn't make me happy because it pretty much destroyed my respect for him and makes me see him in a completely different light.

I'm 100% sure that if I'd made a similar statement people would drastically reassess their opinions of me as well. If people want extremism to stop then they should damned well stop saying extreme things.

I'm going to leave now before I lose respect for anyone else.

Your point is a fair one.

He did misspeak- politics and religion bring out all kinds of passion. That's why LGF is a worthy endeavor- flame wars here are extinguished pretty quickly replaced by worthy exchange.

Now don't leave or you'll force me to post a really bad joke....

295 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:07:07am

Just to be clear, I'm NOT flouncing over someone else's remarks. I'm just really disgusted and disappointed right now and need to step away becuase those aren't good emotions to be operating under in a conversation like this.

Later.

296 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:08:21am

re: #295 CuriousLurker

Just to be clear, I'm NOT flouncing over someone else's remarks. I'm just really disgusted and disappointed right now and need to step away becuase those aren't good emotions to be operating under in a conversation like this.

Later.

Come back soon or the joke gets told.

//

297 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:09:03am

re: #291 CuriousLurker

I'm not conflating anything. What Ludwig said was very clear. It was extreme and way out of line. It doesn't make me happy because it pretty much destroyed my respect for him and makes me see him in a completely different light.

I'm 100% sure that if I'd made a similar statement people would drastically reassess their opinions of me as well. If people want extremism to stop then they should damned well stop saying extreme things.

I'm going to leave now before I lose respect for anyone else.

As much I respect Ludwig, I would also chastise him for losing his head, and more importantly his humanity on the issue.

There's a reason Israel hasn't bombed them into oblivion and it's not just that the world backlash would be horrifying. They don't want to, they don't think it's fair or just. Nor would it solve any problems anyway. We have to learn to live at peace with one another and when these incidents happen, it sets us all back.

The Israelis should be able to guard the holy sites where the Jews go, along with the P.A. forces. That would put an end to this kind of violence.

298 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:09:09am

re: #286 researchok

You are conflating the religious with the political- and that is exactly what the extremists on every side want to happen.

Never a good idea no matter who does it.

Huh?

What extremists on both sides want is a final bloodbath that will give their side some kind of total victory over their 'inhuman' enemy. This happens on both sides, and it's very sad to see people who ought to know better unconsciously aping the rhetoric of the likes of Geller and Spencer.

It sure ain't Curious Lurker that's been doing that.

299 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:09:23am

re: #293 iceweasel

Hey, I've been beat up here myself!

{reasearchok}
{CL}

Yes you were.

And do you recall who stepped in?

Ahem.

300 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:09:56am

re: #299 researchok

Yes you were.

And do you recall who stepped in?

Ahem.

Always. :-)

301 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:10:23am

re: #298 Jimmah

Huh?

What extremists on both sides want is a final bloodbath that will give their side some kind of total victory over their 'inhuman' enemy. This happens on both sides, and it's very sad to see people who ought to know better unconsciously aping the rhetoric of the likes of Geller and Spencer.

It sure ain't Curious Lurker that's been doing that.

Oh, I agree.

LVQ said something he should not have.

He's human.

302 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:15:01am

re: #298 Jimmah

By the way, how's the new job going?

Have they put you in charge yet?

Will you and Ice be attending the wedding?

303 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:23:56am

Sensitivity

304 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:25:50am

re: #302 researchok

By the way, how's the new job going?

Have they put you in charge yet?

Will you and Ice be attending the wedding?

I'm getting there ;)

We won't be attending in person - the Duke of Edinburgh and I have been on rather poor terms lately - but we might take a wee squint at the proceedings at some point ;)

305 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:27:45am

re: #304 Jimmah

I'm getting there ;)

We won't be attending in person - the Duke of Edinburgh and I have been on rather poor terms lately - but we might take a wee squint at the proceedings at some point ;)

Have you seen this?

Royal wedding: No place for Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Jimmah

306 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:31:41am

re: #305 researchok

Have you seen this?

Royal wedding: No place for Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Jimmah

Lol. Yeah, Tony and Gordy were also there too at the original contremps. A most unfortunate incident involving a sporran, the royal corgis and a quantity of marijuana.

307 What, me worry?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:32:03am

re: #295 CuriousLurker

{{{curiouslurker}}}

So I'm going to end this thread on a better note.

My mom just phoned. There's a woman on her block that goes out of her way for a few elderly folks, my mom included. She's always bringing gifts and food. She's taken my mom to a few doctor appointments, etc.

She's Christian, although, not particularly religious and always remembers the Jewish holidays with something special for my mom. This year, she had a huge Easter basket for her sister and wanted to hide it in my mom's house until the sister arrived. This morning, the woman and her sister arrived at my mom's door and was greeted by my mother who made them each an Easter basket of their own.

Just little things in life that hardly get noticed, but create worlds of kindness between people.

308 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:34:48am

I smell meatloaf:) See you all later.

309 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:35:39am

re: #307 marjoriemoon

That was wonderful. Thank you.

BBL y''all.

310 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:50:08pm

re: #291 CuriousLurker

I'm not conflating anything. What Ludwig said was very clear. It was extreme and way out of line. It doesn't make me happy because it pretty much destroyed my respect for him and makes me see him in a completely different light.

I'm 100% sure that if I'd made a similar statement people would drastically reassess their opinions of me as well. If people want extremism to stop then they should damned well stop saying extreme things.

I'm going to leave now before I lose respect for anyone else.

Really?

OK

So are you telling me that people have a right to build mosques on top of my holiest site, desecrate other sites that are holy to my people and murder my people and then expect no response?

Listen very clearly.

My people give and give and give for peace. We are repaid in blood each time.

We give up our holy sites and pretend they don't mean so much to the detriment of our national honor and spirit. It is seen as a weakness by a barbarous enemy that only ever demands more.

Enough is enough.

These people live in the dark ages. They do not get a pass for being barbarians.

We spend day after day talking about how awful right wing Republicans are for their treatment of education, of gay people and of women. What of the murders and the honor killings? Are those just OK? Why are you OK with them? If you are I lose respect for you.

What exactly does Palestinian education, or treatment of women or gays look like. Don't hand me some pablum either. Either we hate unjust medieval thinking or we don't. I at least do not make exceptions only for white Americans when they act like barbarians.

As to the ABOMINATION on my holiest site, it is. I did not mispeak. Seeing it means my people are giving up on themselves and their own heritage. This is not some bizzare case of national hysteria about a creeping Sharia that isn't herre in the US. This is the real life Bais Hamikdash. It is not yours. It is not holy to Three religions. You have your own stuff. It is ours.

I would not want a church their either, any more than a Muslim would want a Church in Mecca. The only difference is that Jews and Christians won't murder people as quickly over such things.

Why can you not respect other faiths as much as you demand respect for your own?

Further, as to war,yes indeed. I am tiredm, sick and tired of the endless bloodletting. Attack after attack and almost no reprisal. It is high time this gets fought decisively in my opinion.

311 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:58:46pm

It is a good thing that I had been called away before I saw a number of responses on this thread.

312 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:05:05pm

re: #298 Jimmah

Yeah Jimmah...

Your relativism and refusal to look at reality is repulsive.

Only one side routinely murders women and children and blows them up indiscriminately (the other risks the lives of its soldiers and civilians alike to prevent casualties). One side routinely butchers gay people (the other gives them asylum). One side had 100% adult literacy and lives in the 21st century, the other is medieval. One side receives more aid per capita than any other group on the planet and still manages to destroy and befoul pretty much any industry or infrastructure given them ( the other supplies food, water and power for a sworn enemy).

Care to deny the truth here?

Give it a go

One side has huge movements dedicated to peace - to the extent of giving up claims to the holiest site in the entire culture. The Palis voted for Hamas in record numbers. Hamas ran on a we kill more Jews campaign. They voted for war.

Care to deny the truth here?

Give it a go.

I do not tolerate magical thinking from the left either.

313 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:58:08pm

re: #310 LudwigVanQuixote

Listen very clearly.

No, YOU listen very clearly.

I will not be a party to your sneering hatred or continuing histrionic screed.

I have unsubscribed to this thread and won't be back to check it again.

I have nothing else to say to you.

314 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:14:26pm

re: #293 iceweasel

Hey, I've been beat up here myself!

{reasearchok}
{CL}

Yes, you have been beaten, but always returned, sunny side up.
*smooch*

315 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:17:48pm

re: #260 LudwigVanQuixote

Haven't read the thread.
No time, to now.
Wish you nothing but good.
We're burying my Mom this week.
Makes everything else, trivial.
Peace be unto you.
Every one of you.

316 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 7:47:37am

Well Ice and Jim I see where you stand on the truth also. That really is fine. Truth always wins.

317 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 7:48:56am

re: #316 LudwigVanQuixote

Well Ice and Jim I see where you stand on the truth also. That really is fine. Truth always wins.

I updinged Curious Lurker. You should probably be apologising for your deleted comment, not doubling down. Just some advice from a friend.

318 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:31:09am

re: #317 iceweasel

I updinged Curious Lurker. You should probably be apologising for your deleted comment, not doubling down. Just some advice from a friend.

Don't go there with me ice.

Just some advice from a friend. You don't get to claim or support false equivalences, and lopsided moral relativism.

And what exactly was so over the top about that comment anyway?

That Jews should finally say enough is enough? That we will not tolerate our people being randomly murdered by barbarians any more? That the land really is ours?

Is it that, the Temple is our holiest site? That it is ours and we should never have to beggars at our holiest places in our own land? Is it that by the way it isn't yours - or theirs.

Or was it the clear statement that in the real world, as opposed to the land of magical thinking, actually bringing peace will require breaking the will of barbarians to fight - and yes that means bloodshed? It is my firm belief that the blood shed then will be less than the sum over time in the current status quo, and finally put an end to this nonsense.

In 67, we should have blown up those abominations. It would have meant that we as a people care about our own heritage and it would have robbed the enemy of a focal point. The Arab would would have wailed, but so what? They would hate us more? No, they would have by now moved on to other things.

It is precisely because we always fight with our hands tied behind our backs and always in half measure that nothing changes. Just enough are killed that nothing gets solved, but propaganda reigns and the Arabs are ever more angry. No one starves (because we feed them!) but the conditions are just hard enough that everyone is angry and ready to be radicalized. Sham governments exist (because we let them!) but no matter which faction is in charge, Hamas or the PA, they live in mansions while the average Arab is as poor and illiterate as ever.

No. This is not a situation that can be abided forever. No the two sides are not equal. No you magical thinking is repulsive and don't you dare lecture me as if it isn't.

319 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:37:52am

re: #317 iceweasel

I updinged Curious Lurker. You should probably be apologising for your deleted comment, not doubling down. Just some advice from a friend.

And how dare you tell me I ought to apologize. A Jew was murdered and one of our hoy places desecrated and I should apologize? For what?

I want an end to the violence once and for all. I am firmly convinced that will only happen after a very large number of terrorist scum and their supporters are killed.

I really hate the PC bullshit, the arrogance and the protected status that liberals give certain groups to be obscene.

It's really no different than the GOP's way of doing things in that regard, just different groups.

So you apologize to me and the thousands of dead Jews you are ignoring with your BS?

320 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:44:01am

re: #319 LudwigVanQuixote

And how dare you tell me I ought to apologize.

For the comment Charles had to delete. And to Charles. Personally I think you owe CL an apology too.

I will be modelling CL and I won't further feed your desire to mysteriously drag me, or anyone else, into this.

321 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:45:03am

re: #320 iceweasel

For the comment Charles had to delete. And to Charles. Personally I think you owe CL an apology too.

I will be modelling CL and I won't further feed your desire to mysteriously drag me, or anyone else, into this.

Ohh because those dead Jews don't count. Assume you are now on the permanent to hell with you list.

322 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:50:58am

And Charles,

I am really not certain what was in that comment that was so over the top. It is your place and if you think it was over the top then it is your call.

However, I will never succumb to moral relativism here. I am sure that is not your goal.

323 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:51:03am

re: #321 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh because those dead Jews don't count. Assume you are now on the permanent to hell with you list.

I HERD YOU LIKE MUDKIPS

324 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:51:24am

re: #323 WindUpBird

What?

325 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:51:51am

re: #321 LudwigVanQuixote

This song was conceived as a ballad by Wang Chung's Jack Hues and Nick Feldman, which is how it appears on the original demo. It was produced by Peter Wolf, who was lead singer of The J. Geils Band. On the Just My Show podcast with Eric Greenberg, Hues explained: "Most of the time we write separately, but 'Everybody Have Fun Tonight' is actually quite a collaborative song. When we came up with the original line, I then went away and wrote with a 'Hey Jude' style ballad around it, trying to be ironic. And then when we got in the studio with Peter Wolf, he was like, 'This is an amazing dance hit, you rock the tempo, you've got to really deliver what the title suggests.'
The original demo we recorded in Nick's flat in London around Christmas time I think one Monday, because it had all these sort of like sleigh bells and stuff on it. And I just wanted it to have that kind of weird Disney-esque sort of atmosphere. But things obviously change as people hear the songs and see certain potentials in it. And after To Live and Die in LA we did have a choice facing us, which is, Okay you can do more movies, you can be sort of arty if you want, but you won't necessarily get support for that. Or you can go and have a hit record, which is what the label always wants from you. And we pretty consciously chose to have a proper hit record and sort of establish ourselves."

326 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:52:07am

re: #324 LudwigVanQuixote

This song is also known for its spasmodic video, which is full of extremely quick cuts between similar images. If the song is about musical purity, the video is the opposite, creating a dissonance that left some viewers literally sick. Regarding the video, Hues explained: "It was delivering a song that's essentially very upbeat and intentionally amusing. We weren't super serious about 'this is an amazing song that's gonna change your life.' It is just sort of like, get out there, have a great time, don't worry too much. I remember when we did the video with Kevin Godley and Lol Crème, they thought I should be singing straight to camera in a very intense way and very serious way with this pretty lighthearted song. And I think that really works in that video.
The video that everybody was in love with around that time was Peter Gabriel's 'Sledgehammer,' anything with a bit of stop-frame in it was cool. It was actually banned in the UK, because some BBC guys said that that particular frame rate could cause epileptic seizures in people."

327 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:55:52am

re: #324 LudwigVanQuixote

You should take a break, man. You're mistaking people disagreeing with collective punishment as moral relativists. There has been no moral relativism that I can see in the entire conversation with you.

328 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:57:02am

and now, presenting the most important song of the last 100 years

329 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:57:40am

re: #328 WindUpBird

and now, presenting the most important song of the last 100 years

[Video]

If that gets stuck in my head I'm holding you personally responsible.

330 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:58:40am

re: #329 JasonA

If that gets stuck in my head I'm holding you personally responsible.

I share the misery

331 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:59:26am

re: #329 JasonA

If that gets stuck in my head I'm holding you personally responsible.

Already there.

332 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 8:59:33am

re: #325 WindUpBird

How charming. I'm out of there.

So just to sum up.

An unarmed Jew was shot dead coming out of a Jewish holy site.

The the holy site was set on fire.

Another Jew expresses great anger at this crap.

And is told...

It is over the top. Really?

The Jew was stupid to be there? Really? It's HIS place.

That he should apologize to a Muslim who is offended at having the wretched history of Palestinians in the region pointed out to her. And no that is not all Muslims that is the particular case of the Palestinians in all of its glory.

And berated by the tag team PC police who just find all those crimes committed by the Palestinian Proletariat to be well inconvenient to the meme that all religious people are equally fanatical.

In the mean time, a Jew was shot, an ancient site was damaged and I am being told about being PC enough for those who engage in magical thinking.

So here is the low down.

The Land is not yours. Your opinions on the violence are meaningless unless you count dead Jews too. We do not care what you think. Your opinions on who owns the land are meaningless unless you count the history accurately.

But most importantly, the fact that if a Christian or a Muslim is killed, it is a big deal, but not so much if it is a Jew speaks endless volumes.

333 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:01:04am

re: #327 Obdicut

You should take a break, man. You're mistaking people disagreeing with collective punishment as moral relativists. There has been no moral relativism that I can see in the entire conversation with you.

Obdi, I know full well where Jimmah, Ice and CL are coming from.

Sometime, you will have to choose where you stand.

However, you are right about taking a break. I really am out of here.

334 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:03:02am

re: #332 LudwigVanQuixote

Another Jew expresses great anger at this crap.

And is told...

It is over the top. Really?

Yes, you really were told whatever got deleted was over the top.


That he should apologize to a Muslim who is offended at having the wretched history of Palestinians in the region pointed out to her. And no that is not all Muslims that is the particular case of the Palestinians in all of its glory.

From what CL said, no, it doesn't appear that she was offended by having the history of Palestinians pointed out to her, but other things you said.


And berated by the tag team PC police who just find all those crimes committed by the Palestinian Proletariat to be well inconvenient to the meme that all religious people are equally fanatical.

I don't see anything remotely like that said, no.


But most importantly, the fact that if a Christian or a Muslim is killed, it is a big deal, but not so much if it is a Jew speaks endless volumes.


Who on earth is saying anything remotely like that?

335 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:03:36am

re: #333 LudwigVanQuixote

Obdi, I know full well where Jimmah, Ice and CL are coming from.

Sometime, you will have to choose where you stand.

However, you are right about taking a break. I really am out of here.

I stand against collective punishment. And calling people, any people, animals. And napalm. Yes, that's my stand LVQ.

336 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:05:40am

OK, now I'm starting to get pissed off.

337 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:07:02am

re: #332 LudwigVanQuixote

please stop, dude

I tried to kill it with humor

338 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:08:14am

I'm saying for the record here, that CuriousLurker is a better Lizard than I am, and one of the coolest,smartest, most thoughtful people we have here, and she doens't deserve this


and I'm out

339 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:09:22am

re: #333 LudwigVanQuixote

I think that you're accusing people here of the sins of others. Which is rather uncool.

I don't know what you said. It seems to relate to destroying Muslim holy sites and killing those that riot afterwards. That's pretty obscene. But I don't really know.

I do know that you're treating others as though they're saying that the murder of Jews is less than the murder of Christians and Muslims. And I haven't seen a damn thing that at all approaches that.

340 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:17:50am

The one comment I see as being problematic is the whole 'no sympathy' for the dead one. That one sucks. But I think it's far more of a clumsy expression than it is about Jews. I feel sympathy for people who get picked up hiking in Iran, but I still think that it was selfish of foolish of them to do so, since they knew the risk.

Likewise, I think that these Jews, while not at all deserving any violence done to them, in the least, were foolish to put themselves at risk in this way. The IDF has those rules in place for a reason, just like we tell people not to hike in Iran without a reason.

Those that attacked them are still ultimate assholes, as are the Iranian government when they arrest hikers and charge them with espionage.

341 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:22:31am

re: #339 Obdicut

I think that you're accusing people here of the sins of others. Which is rather uncool.

I don't know what you said. It seems to relate to destroying Muslim holy sites and killing those that riot afterwards. That's pretty obscene. But I don't really know.

I do know that you're treating others as though they're saying that the murder of Jews is less than the murder of Christians and Muslims. And I haven't seen a damn thing that at all approaches that.

We can talk about what I said and why off of here.

But for the record - and this really is the point- I am tired of double standars where Jews always have to take second or third place in their own land. This is why that Jew was murdered. As another example, those two mosques on the Temple Mount squat on someone else's holy site. They do not belong to the Muslims and they should not. Every other mosque is protected as much as any other holy site. But the Temple or Joseph's tomb or Hebron, get second class status, because who cares about what Jews think. Even many Jews don't care.

And that is a crying shame. We give up our national heritage because we are uncomfortable with being Jews too openly.

The Temple is ours. No one else's. We do not have to share. We should not have to share. We are not beggars in our own nation. The justification for our being in our own land is historic. It is cultural. It is the simple fact that it really is our homeland and everyone knows this.

But the real reason - is that G-d gave us that land. And Christians and Muslims know that too. They just like to forget sometimes.

There is really no point in arguing this further. Both sides know full well where they stand. And while it is possible to be civil on other subjects, there will not be a kissy face "we all dig each other now" moment on this one.

342 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:27:29am

religion. :(

343 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:30:01am

Since I opened my big mouth upthread to you, Ludwig, I'll make another comment.

I don't disagree with you on the fact that Israel is our homeland and we're entitled to live on it and defend it. Most Jews are, indeed, offended over the Dome of the Rock. I am offended by the Dome. We only have one real holy place and that's it. Our land was conquered by Muslims about 1500 years ago and they built the mosque on the site of the destroyed temple. It's been a thumb in our eye a long time.

In fact, anyone's who has read me knows where I stand. I've basically been accused of racism for lumping the Palestinians together as a terror group. Ok, we don't have to agree on that either.

At any rate, Jews and Muslims can't discuss this civilly. I'm sorry, it can't happen. Although what I said above about the Dome, I'm sure Curious Lurker does not agree, but I don't think I insulted her. Talking about wiping out the Arabs, dropping napalm on them... not the same thing. Not possible. Not good for discussion and only good for making you feel a bit better at blowing off some steam.

There's ways to couch things here on LGF (read "in mixed company") that may be different from what you say in private. I think we should try to cultivate that. Doesn't mean you have to change your viewpoint, just your expression.

I still go back to Jews and Muslims can't discuss this civilly and maybe we shouldn't even bother. Maybe we should find like kind in movie, books, games and other stuff and let it be that.

344 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:34:22am

re: #342 WindUpBird

religion. :(

That religion is part of a culture which has been around for nearly 4000 years, so I wouldn't be so quick to poo-poo.

345 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:37:48am

re: #343 marjoriemoon

Since I opened my big mouth upthread to you, Ludwig, I'll make another comment.

I don't disagree with you on the fact that Israel is our homeland and we're entitled to live on it and defend it. Most Jews are, indeed, offended over the Dome of the Rock. I am offended by the Dome. We only have one real holy place and that's it. Our land was conquered by Muslims about 1500 years ago and they built the mosque on the site of the destroyed temple. It's been a thumb in our eye a long time.

In fact, anyone's who has read me knows where I stand. I've basically been accused of racism for lumping the Palestinians together as a terror group. Ok, we don't have to agree on that either.

At any rate, Jews and Muslims can't discuss this civilly. I'm sorry, it can't happen. Although what I said above about the Dome, I'm sure Curious Lurker does not agree, but I don't think I insulted her. Talking about wiping out the Arabs, dropping napalm on them... not the same thing. Not possible. Not good for discussion and only good for making you feel a bit better at blowing off some steam.

There's ways to couch things here on LGF (read "in mixed company") that may be different from what you say in private. I think we should try to cultivate that. Doesn't mean you have to change your viewpoint, just your expression.

I still go back to Jews and Muslims can't discuss this civilly and maybe we shouldn't even bother. Maybe we should find like kind in movie, books, games and other stuff and let it be that.

This is one of those ones where I believe I was misconstrued.

I have never advocated killing or napalming all Arabs or Muslims.

I am however strongly advocating a decisive fight with the Palestinian factions to end the violence once and for all.

I would love to get into the ideas I have on a military basis, but I really think this is not the time.

346 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:38:23am

re: #341 LudwigVanQuixote

And that is a crying shame. We give up our national heritage because we are uncomfortable with being Jews too openly.

The national heritage of Israel is just as much secular Jews as it is religious Jews.

When you speak of Israel, you often speak as though Israel is a wholly religious nation made up only of observant Jews. The truth is very, very different from that.

When you say "us", you're not including me, a secular Jew, in that. Nor are you including many, many, many Jews in Israel.

When you say this:

But the real reason - is that G-d gave us that land. And Christians and Muslims know that too. They just like to forget sometimes.

You are leaving every Jewish atheist out of the discussion. Or rather, you're making a claim that carries zero weight.

Positing Israel's right to land on religion, rather than on being a democracy with the rule of law, is not a good argument.

347 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:39:04am

re: #344 marjoriemoon

That religion is part of a culture which has been around for nearly 4000 years, so I wouldn't be so quick to poo-poo.

I'm not poopooing the religion, let me be clear.

here's specifically why I made that post

But the real reason - is that G-d gave us that land.

And I just see this as the sort of thing that people say when they're ready to do anything. :/


I guess I'm just never going to get it. Ever. I grew up irreligious. Not an athiest, but irrreligious. I have no tribe, besides maybe the misfits I have a kinship with, who are other frustrated creative people who don't understand this fury. We have so much land on this earth. So many resources. But God is all about that land. I'll never get it. i'm not meant to get it.


I do know this. CL doesn't deserve this shit. :/

348 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:39:38am

re: #322 LudwigVanQuixote

Excuse me, but when the hell did it become OK to talk about "napalming" people at LGF? Have you lost your mind?

I'm really getting sick of this. You know damned well what you wrote that was over the top, and I don't appreciate having smoke blown up my ass.

349 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:39:44am

re: #346 Obdicut

The national heritage of Israel is just as much secular Jews as it is religious Jews.

When you speak of Israel, you often speak as though Israel is a wholly religious nation made up only of observant Jews. The truth is very, very different from that.

When you say "us", you're not including me, a secular Jew, in that. Nor are you including many, many, many Jews in Israel.

When you say this:

You are leaving every Jewish atheist out of the discussion. Or rather, you're making a claim that carries zero weight.

Positing Israel's right to land on religion, rather than on being a democracy with the rule of law, is not a good argument.

dead on. dead fucking on

350 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:40:55am

it's as if athiests don't count, not quite part of any tribalist structure, regarded with suspicion because they don't have the proper fervor, they don't give off the right messages.


And that's the way athiests usually have it :(

351 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:42:13am

re: #346 Obdicut

NO. I am saying that I believe that G-d is real whether you believe in Him or not and that he gave us that land. However, if you don't want to care about that then fine. See the Temple as something like the Liberty Bell. You don't give things like that way and expect your culture to remain strong.

352 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:45:55am

re: #348 Charles

Excuse me, but when the hell did it become OK to talk about "napalming" people at LGF? Have you lost your mind?

I'm really getting sick of this. You know damned well what you wrote that was over the top, and I don't appreciate having smoke blown up my ass.

Alright.

That is the offensive comment.

Fine.

Charles it is your blog. I am not blowing smoke up your ass. I know that what I wrote was provocative and if you think that was too much then so be it.

I am not angry at you or trying to mess with you.

I am however very convinced that the only thing that will end this nonsense is a decisive fight. I have no illusions about that fight being pretty.

I also, surprisingly don't want it to come to that and still pray it doesn't.

That said, when it does, I want my people to win and I don't want any questions about who was right.

And winning means fighting and winning an all out war.

353 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:48:15am

re: #351 LudwigVanQuixote

NO. I am saying that I believe that G-d is real whether you believe in Him or not and that he gave us that land. However, if you don't want to care about that then fine. See the Temple as something like the Liberty Bell. You don't give things like that way and expect your culture to remain strong.

and that's why this discussion can never make any sense to me. it's not a discussion. it's a cosmic assertion, that cannot be proven, disproven. it's an eternal impasse, used as leverage to talk about war. Because the premise that God cares about the Earth itself in specific, let alone a location on this dumb rock, is as baffling and bizarre to me as thinking that God cares who won the super bowl. That is my opinion. I grew up with no religious upbringing, just a love for intellectual curiousity. If there's a creator, I believe we're just more fauna. For all I know, God is a big tree who only cares about trees, and human beings are a nuisance. We're an ego driven race. We build everything in our own image.


I'll never get it. ever ever ever. Maybe my brain lacks the piece that believes in an anthropomorphic God. I think we'll ALL be surprised at what actually greets us when we die.

354 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:49:21am

re: #352 LudwigVanQuixote

at the end of the day, you are not talking about God, you are talking about war.

355 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:51:41am

re: #351 LudwigVanQuixote

NO. I am saying that I believe that G-d is real whether you believe in Him or not and that he gave us that land. However, if you don't want to care about that then fine.

Well, yes, the definition of being an atheist is that I don't care about that. Nor do the many, many Jewish atheists.

See the Temple as something like the Liberty Bell. You don't give things like that way and expect your culture to remain strong.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The Liberty Bell could disappear tomorrow and it wouldn't really affect the US much. It'd be a mystery, and Philadelphia would be cheesed off.

I'm pointing out that you're equating "being Jews" with "being religious Jews". And that Jewish history, Jewish culture, is synonymous with the Jewish religion. Theodore Herzl's view of Zionism, and many of the founders of Israel, was nothing like that. At all.

356 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:51:52am

And I believe God, whatever HE, SHE, IT or THEY are? has nothing to do with WAR. At all.

WAR is us. Human beings. Ending each others' stupid short tiny lives with axes, stones guns, knives, sabers, tanks, missiles, scuds, bombers, nukes. Over resources, over whatever you please. Smashing each others skulls. lighting each other on fire. Shooting each other with rifles in the streets.

Leave God out of it.

357 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:52:39am

re: #355 Obdicut

killing over symbolism is one of the greatest evils mankind has inflicted upon itself.

358 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:54:11am

re: #354 WindUpBird

Would you do me the kindness of keeping your narcissism out of this?

Yes. I am talking about all out war as the only long term solution to the problem. I have become convinced that is the case, and you are right, that really is not what I think G-d would want. I do however think it is the bes t that we mortal humans can do.

There are some times when you have to fight.

You live in a nation that allows you man many freedoms because many Americans understood that very sad fact of life.

359 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:54:46am

re: #358 LudwigVanQuixote

What do you mean by 'all out war'?

360 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:55:08am

re: #358 LudwigVanQuixote

Would you do me the kindness of keeping your narcissism out of this?

Yes. I am talking about all out war as the only long term solution to the problem. I have become convinced that is the case, and you are right, that really is not what I think G-d would want. I do however think it is the bes t that we mortal humans can do.

There are some times when you have to fight.

You live in a nation that allows you man many freedoms because many Americans understood that very sad fact of life.

No I will not.

You are the narcissist. You dominate this thread with your fury. I find it frighting and repulsive.

361 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:56:32am

re: #352 LudwigVanQuixote

No. That was not the only problem.

I'm absolutely fucking sick and tired of hearing people ranting about destroying the symbols of other people's religion. I worked my ass off to get rid of the nutso Kahanists who used to hang out at LGF and spew that garbage, and I'm not about to let it get started up again.

When you start ranting like that, I don't see much difference between you and Pamela Geller. Think about it. Is that who you want to be like?

Because that kind of person is not going to be welcome at this website.

362 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:57:55am

re: #315 Floral Giraffe

Hadn't heard about your loss. I hope she had a great life.

363 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 9:59:07am

re: #356 WindUpBird

And I believe God, whatever HE, SHE, IT or THEY are? has nothing to do with WAR. At all.

WAR is us. Human beings. Ending each others' stupid short tiny lives with axes, stones guns, knives, sabers, tanks, missiles, scuds, bombers, nukes. Over resources, over whatever you please. Smashing each others skulls. lighting each other on fire. Shooting each other with rifles in the streets.

Leave God out of it.

And yet, G-d gave us that land.

So I will leave him out of it completely and talk cold hard devil's arithmetic.

As long as the Palestinians are divided under the corrupt ministrations of terrorist agencies as governments, trapped in a system with no social advancement and the majority of them are hell bent on murdering Jews, there will not be peace.

As long as the interplay between the larger Arab world, Europe and Russia and the UN continues the status quo, it will not end, there will not be peace.

As long as Jews accept the Status quo, there will not be peace (of course with each rocket and each murder, we accept it less and less).

The only way all of that ends is to take the pieces off the board. That means breaking the Palestinian will to fight and forcing them to realize that some other way much be better. Then perhaps all that aid money would go to building a society rather than fighting and having corrupt leaders in mansions.

That means many of them will die. That is what war is.

In the long run it saves more lives.

364 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:01:22am

re: #363 LudwigVanQuixote

The only way all of that ends is to take the pieces off the board. That means breaking the Palestinian will to fight and forcing them to realize that some other way much be better. Then perhaps all that aid money would go to building a society rather than fighting and having corrupt leaders in mansions.

That means many of them will die. That is what war is.

In the long run it saves more lives.

Only if you're right, that their will would break after... whatever you consider 'all-out-war'.

If you're wrong, in the end, you'd just be killing lots and lots and lots of Palestinians and Jews.

People are disagreeing with you on whether such war would actually produce the peace you want. You are somehow interpreting that as moral relativism.

365 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:04:25am

re: #352 LudwigVanQuixote

Please don't get banned.
Pretty please?

366 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:05:02am

re: #361 Charles

No. That was not the only problem.

I'm absolutely fucking sick and tired of hearing people ranting about destroying the symbols of other people's religion. I worked my ass off to get rid of the nutso Kahanists who used to hang out at LGF and spew that garbage, and I'm not about to let it get started up again.

When you start ranting like that, I don't see much difference between you and Pamela Geller. Think about it. Is that who you want to be like?

Because that kind of person is not going to be welcome at this website.

Look, I am not about destroying the symbols of another person's religion.

In fact I hate the idea.

That is why I want the holiest place of my own to have a little respect itself. Or Joseph's tomb or Hebron.

Why are their sites protected, but mine not?

This whole thing happened and that man was shot because he dared have the notion that he could go to a Jewish site as a Jew. And it was burnt by Arabs to make the point that they think Jews can not.

I certainly think that people's holy sites should be protected. I certainly don't want to see anyone else's holy sites destroyed.

I just want the same courtesy directed to me in my own land.

This discussion is telling me that no really, if you care about the holiest sites of your faith as a Jew, it is secondary. Why is it that a mosque is more valuable?

367 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:06:03am

re: #366 LudwigVanQuixote

Who is saying that a mosque is more valuable?

368 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:06:20am

re: #361 Charles

No. That was not the only problem.

I'm absolutely fucking sick and tired of hearing people ranting about destroying the symbols of other people's religion. I worked my ass off to get rid of the nutso Kahanists who used to hang out at LGF and spew that garbage, and I'm not about to let it get started up again.

When you start ranting like that, I don't see much difference between you and Pamela Geller. Think about it. Is that who you want to be like?

Because that kind of person is not going to be welcome at this website.

And you know I hate Pam and her ilk. Please don't put me in with her.

369 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:06:55am

re: #367 Obdicut

Who is saying that a mosque is more valuable?

Anyone who thinks that the Bais Hamikdash is a mosque. In many ways even you are.

370 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:08:13am

re: #365 Floral Giraffe

Please don't get banned.
Pretty please?

Floral, so sorry to hear about your Mom. Hope you are ok.

371 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:08:18am

re: #363 LudwigVanQuixote

You know this is a message board and a community, and not a primarily Jewish religious community.

and you're just making everyone so uncomfortable and creeped out that it'll become untenable.

372 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:09:14am

re: #369 LudwigVanQuixote

In many ways even you are.

In what way? Please be explicit. In what way am I saying a mosque is more valuable than any Jewish religious site?

You should also explain what you mean by 'all-out-war'.

373 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:10:23am

re: #371 WindUpBird

You know this is a message board and a community, and not a primarily Jewish religious community.

and you're just making everyone so uncomfortable and creeped out that it'll become untenable.

No... I am creeping you out because you can't stand the idea that Jews have rights to their own holy sites.

Question:

If all religion is equally stupid, why do you care? Why should Muslims have a right to ban Jews from Jewish sites? Isn't it just as stupid when they do that to Jews?

374 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:11:41am

re: #368 LudwigVanQuixote

And you know I hate Pam and her ilk. Please don't put me in with her.

You are putting yourself there.

375 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:11:42am

re: #373 LudwigVanQuixote

No... I am creeping you out because you can't stand the idea that Jews have rights to their own holy sites.

Question:

If all religion is equally stupid, why do you care? Why should Muslims have a right to ban Jews from Jewish sites? Isn't it just as stupid when they do that to Jews?

I have no idea how I am supposed to respond to this

376 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:12:59am

re: #373 LudwigVanQuixote

Why are you here?


do you think you'll change a single person's mind here?


what is being accomplished?

377 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:14:00am

re: #372 Obdicut

In what way? Please be explicit. In what way am I saying a mosque is more valuable than any Jewish religious site?

You should also explain what you mean by 'all-out-war'.

OK explicitly.

If you think that a several hundred year old mosque built on the millenia old holiest site of another people, with the clear intention of announcing supremacy over that faith and Christianity, outranks the original holiest site of those people then you are clearly saying the mosque is more important.

This is because they can not occupy the same space.

378 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:15:58am

re: #376 WindUpBird


what is being accomplished?

Nothing. There is no way you will consider what I am saying about the this any more than the winguts will consider a talk about AGW.

I think I've stated my case.

379 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:17:29am

re: #374 wrenchwench

You are putting yourself there.

really?

I do not call for killing indiscriminately. I do not argue that there is nothing good about Islam. I make distinctions.

You are being broad brush.

380 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:19:25am

re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote

If you think that a several hundred year old mosque built on the millenia old holiest site of another people, with the clear intention of announcing supremacy over that faith and Christianity, outranks the original holiest site of those people then you are clearly saying the mosque is more important.

I don't think either is more important, though. I think that the Arabs are jackasses for not letting Jews pray on the Temple Mount.

381 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:20:04am

re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote

And you haven't explained what you mean by 'all-out-war'.

382 blueraven  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:20:39am

Ludwig, I dont know a lot about the whole situation in the ME, so please dont take this as taking sides one way or the other.

But when you say this is Israels land because G-d gave it to them, that muddies the debate. In the USA we have people who say we are given our rights by G-d not by man or government. We have climate change deniers who say He would never allow the destruction claimed by those who believe in Global warming.We also have groups that use G-d to try to stop the rights of gays, interracial marriage, and so on. G-d given is a matter of faith and I have no doubt that all the groups who use this as fact, believe it.

It is not a truth, however, for all. And to use it so unequivocally seems inconsistent for a man of science and reason, even one who is a true believer.

383 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:21:22am

re: #379 LudwigVanQuixote

really?

I do not call for killing indiscriminately. I do not argue that there is nothing good about Islam. I make distinctions.

You are being broad brush.

Napalm makes no distinctions. "All out war" fails to make the very few distinctions it attempts.

384 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:22:08am

re: #380 Obdicut

I don't think either is more important, though. I think that the Arabs are jackasses for not letting Jews pray on the Temple Mount.

Well there you have it. They shot this man to make that point at Joseph's tomb. They want to do the same at Hebron.

They think it is theirs. It isn't.

I have no desire at all to take from them what is theirs.

I want what is mine.

385 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:23:18am

re: #378 LudwigVanQuixote

Nothing. There is no way you will consider what I am saying about the this any more than the winguts will consider a talk about AGW.

I think I've stated my case.

the difference between AGW and what you have said in this thread:


AGW is within the scope of LGF. We are comfortable talking about it.

What you are saying in this thread, nobody is comfortable talking about, not even other religious Jewish people here

386 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:25:45am

re: #383 wrenchwench

Napalm makes no distinctions. "All out war" fails to make the very few distinctions it attempts.

Katusha rockets and suicide bombers don't make distinctions either.

And the US didn't make those distinctions when we sent thousands of B-17's over Germany.

There is no clean way to fight a war. Civilians will be killed. A civilized army tries not to hit them - but if it wants to win, it does not let that dictate policy either.

The difference between the katusha and suicide bombers vs. the bombing of Germany was that the US ended a war with their actions and the Arabs are provoking one. The difference is that the Germans declared war first just like the Arabs did.

387 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:26:14am

re: #384 LudwigVanQuixote

There I have what, exactly? The Dome of the Rock is one of the holiest sites in the Sunni religion. The Temple Mount is the holiest site in the Jewish religion. The site should be accessible to both. Right now, it is not, because of the fanaticism of the Muslims in the area. Israel is the one that bans Jews from praying in the area, but it is because of fear of violence from Muslims.

388 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:26:27am

re: #383 wrenchwench

Napalm makes no distinctions. "All out war" fails to make the very few distinctions it attempts.

never mind the fact that all out war against the palestinians could very well become all out war across the globe

WWI started with one man being shot dead.

389 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:26:48am

re: #385 WindUpBird

the difference between AGW and what you have said in this thread:

AGW is within the scope of LGF. We are comfortable talking about it.

What you are saying in this thread, nobody is comfortable talking about, not even other religious Jewish people here

No you are not because you hate religion.

390 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:27:51am

re: #382 blueraven

not only is it not a truth, the simple fact of invoking God as a reason to kill is actively offensive. To me at least. i find it repellent and barbaric

391 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:28:08am

re: #389 LudwigVanQuixote

What reason do you have to believe WUB hates religion?

392 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:28:29am

re: #389 LudwigVanQuixote

No you are not because you hate religion.

that's me dude

I guess I hate my Mom.

393 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:31:34am

re: #386 LudwigVanQuixote

Katusha rockets and suicide bombers don't make distinctions either.

And the US didn't make those distinctions when we sent thousands of B-17's over Germany.

There is no clean way to fight a war. Civilians will be killed. A civilized army tries not to hit them - but if it wants to win, it does not let that dictate policy either.

The difference between the katusha and suicide bombers vs. the bombing of Germany was that the US ended a war with their actions and the Arabs are provoking one. The difference is that the Germans declared war first just like the Arabs did.

Now you are defending not making distinctions. I thought your ability to make distinctions was what separates you from the Harpy. Which is it?

394 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:32:03am

re: #389 LudwigVanQuixote

No you are not because you hate religion.

Seriously.

You are an embarrassment, Ludwig.

You're a scientist.

You act like a child. You wig out over stalkers. You throw fits. You embarrass us. We're made unconfortable when you throw your fits. We can't stand it. You make a show. You throw tandrums. You shit on the coolest people this blog has.,

You make no sense. You sound like a fanatic. You know why Windsagio left? parytially because of your own fucking behavior. He couldn't deal. He figured if he stuck around, he'd eventually say something TO YOU that would get him banned.

I'm keeping it together, but I see why he left. I'm glas you're the only one here who behaves in this dumbass manner.

You got the WHOLE

FUCKING

BLOG

trying to calm your foolish ass down, everyone who cares about you

but you just wave your giant dick around, bound and determined to put on a big brave martyr show.

395 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:32:24am

re: #382 blueraven

Ludwig, I dont know a lot about the whole situation in the ME, so please dont take this as taking sides one way or the other.

But when you say this is Israels land because G-d gave it to them, that muddies the debate. In the USA we have people who say we are given our rights by G-d not by man or government. We have climate change deniers who say He would never allow the destruction claimed by those who believe in Global warming.We also have groups that use G-d to try to stop the rights of gays, interracial marriage, and so on. G-d given is a matter of faith and I have no doubt that all the groups who use this as fact, believe it.

It is not a truth, however, for all. And to use it so unequivocally seems inconsistent for a man of science and reason, even one who is a true believer.

I actually don't use that a lot because it does muddy things.

You will note my examples tend to be historical, political and cultural first.

We don't need to fight this fight.

There is though a second part to this which I should point out.

If you are a Jew, and you do believe the faith, you do believe G-d gave you that land.

For us to say such a thing is a silly and medieval thing... Yet, other faiths... who say similar things... well we have to respect that... My point is about Jews selling themselves short and about others expecting us to just get over our silly faith somewhat one sidedly.

Why can't the Muslims get over their presumably equally silly faith (if you are being fair) that says the Bais Hamikdash is somehow theirs?

396 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:33:11am

re: #389 LudwigVanQuixote

and now you knwo the truth of what I've thought about you for some time.

I figured you were too cool, too big, too respected for me to say this shit

But I'm just sick of being embarrassed

397 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:34:18am

re: #394 WindUpBird

Dude, I am writing at the end of a dead thread and you are freaking out. Now you are trying to claim some sort of popularity contest. That I should not hold my views because you don't like them?

There are lots of other discussions going on here. You don't need to keep trying to win.

398 blueraven  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:35:00am

re: #395 LudwigVanQuixote

My comment would apply to all religions who apply the G-d given argument. Just to be clear.

399 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:36:03am

re: #397 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude, I am writing at the end of a dead thread and you are freaking out. Now you are trying to claim some sort of popularity contest. That I should not hold my views because you don't like them?

There are lots of other discussions going on here. You don't need to keep trying to win.

now you're trolling me?

400 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:37:10am

Not gonna be trolled.

later

401 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:37:13am

re: #393 wrenchwench

Now you are defending not making distinctions. I thought your ability to make distinctions was what separates you from the Harpy. Which is it?

I am really shocked that you would say this.

OK... I want the specific war with the various Palestinian factions and Hezbollah to end.

I am talking about real entities of truly not nice people here. I am not, like PAm talking about made up terror scandals or fear of a claiphate.

I am talking about real people I know who are under attack day in and day out from real live terrorist governments.

I am talking about a real live war, not one that sick poeple are hoping for. I am talking about the quickest way to end one that is happening now, not hoping to start a new one or kill innocents.

If you really can't see that difference, then you are just picking a fight for no reason.

402 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:39:12am

re: #397 LudwigVanQuixote

The point of what he said had nothing to do with his popularity, at all.

403 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:40:23am

re: #402 Obdicut

The point of what he said had nothing to do with his popularity, at all.

That is true, he was attacking mine.

His logic failed when it was pointed out that no one is forcing him to argue on a dead thread with me.

404 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:41:54am

re: #403 LudwigVanQuixote

That is true, he was attacking mine.

No, he wasn't. He was pointing out how many people who like you, who are trying to reason with you.

Can you explain why you said that in many ways I was treating mosques as more special than Jewish holy places now, please? That's an accusation you've made and failed to substantiate.

I'd also like to know what you mean by 'all-out-war'.

405 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:42:11am

re: #399 WindUpBird

Ummm this is going to surprise you, but it is really not about you.

406 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:43:27am

re: #404 Obdicut

No, he wasn't. He was pointing out how many people who like you, who are trying to reason with you.

Can you explain why you said that in many ways I was treating mosques as more special than Jewish holy places now, please? That's an accusation you've made and failed to substantiate.

I'd also like to know what you mean by 'all-out-war'.

Believe it or not I have to get to work. All out war was defined by me on an earlier thread about this same topic after the Foegels were murdered. You were there. I am a little surprised by you.

407 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:44:48am

re: #312 LudwigVanQuixote


re: #298 Jimmah

Yeah Jimmah...

Your relativism and refusal to look at reality is repulsive.

Ludwig - I'll tell you what I'm sick of - having all manner of bollocks projected onto me by someone who can't accept that he crossed the line, and is sounding just like Geller and chums.

Ice and I have friends in Israel who believe such rhetoric directly endangers them. I agree with them - and my feelings on this are the same no matter who happens to be coming out with this garbage.

I find it very hard to see how people who want to see Israel's problems 'solved' by a gigantic bloodbath have Israel and her people's best interests at heart.

And when you start lashing out at your friends just because they don't agree with you on a position that wouldn't look out of place on 'Atlas Shrugs', or 'Jihadwatch', it's time to give yourself a reality check.

408 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:48:46am

re: #406 LudwigVanQuixote

Believe it or not I have to get to work. All out war was defined by me on an earlier thread about this same topic after the Foegels were murdered. You were there. I am a little surprised by you.

Is there some reason you can't repeat what all out war means, then, or link to that comment?

I'm kind of surprised by you, partly by the way that you are ignoring the secular history of Israel and conflating Jewish religious identity with Jewish identity. But also because it appears that what you called for in your deleted comment was the destruction of Muslim religions sites you consider abominations-- because they share the same location as a Jewish religious holy site.

409 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 10:59:19am

re: #408 Obdicut

Is there some reason you can't repeat what all out war means, then, or link to that comment?

I'm kind of surprised by you, partly by the way that you are ignoring the secular history of Israel and conflating Jewish religious identity with Jewish identity. But also because it appears that what you called for in your deleted comment was the destruction of Muslim religions sites you consider abominations-- because they share the same location as a Jewish religious holy site.

Obdi, Israel is a Jewish state, run as a democracy, but also run under Jewish law. You keep calling it secular. It is NOT secular. This is really a weird point you're making. Have you ever visited? Jerusalem, the heart of Israel for goodness sake, is not secular! I'm not sure even the "non-religious" would be called secular because they abide by most of the Jewish customs anyway.

Sorry athiests. You can't remove God from Israel. Or what the hell does it mean? None of it would mean anything, not the churches, not the mosques or the temple, not Jesus, Mohammad or Moses.

Yikes!

410 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:08:52am

re: #409 marjoriemoon

Obdi, Israel is a Jewish state, run as a democracy, but also run under Jewish law. You keep calling it secular. It is NOT secular. This is really a weird point you're making. Have you ever visited? Jerusalem, the heart of Israel for goodness sake, is not secular! I'm not sure even the "non-religious" would be called secular because they abide by most of the Jewish customs anyway.

Depending on how you count, about 15-40% of Jews in Israel are atheistic or agnostic.

I don't actually keep calling Israel secular, no. In fact, I haven't called Israel secular a single time. I referred to the secular history of Israel-- as in, Theodore Herzl and the other secular Zionists importance in the foundation of Israel.

Sorry athiests. You can't remove God from Israel. Or what the hell does it mean?

What does Israel mean? Hopefully a country like the one Herzl imagined.

We do remember Herzl, right?

411 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:09:27am

re: #409 marjoriemoon


Sorry athiests. You can't remove God from Israel. Or what the hell does it mean?

Probably it would mean being a secular state, much like the many other states that have in the past had strong ties to a specific religion, but which do not any more.

412 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:09:39am

re: #410 Obdicut

Depending on how you count, about 15-40% of Jews in Israel are atheistic or agnostic.

I don't actually keep calling Israel secular, no. In fact, I haven't called Israel secular a single time. I referred to the secular history of Israel-- as in, Theodore Herzl and the other secular Zionists importance in the foundation of Israel.

What does Israel mean? Hopefully a country like the one Herzl imagined.

We do remember Herzl, right?

What is the shema Obdi, repeat it please.

413 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:10:55am

re: #412 marjoriemoon

What is the shema Obdi, repeat it please.

I like Obdi very much.

That is very harsh.

Unfortunately, in this case, I think called for.

414 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:13:02am

re: #412 marjoriemoon

What is the shema Obdi, repeat it please.

What on earth does that have to do with anything?

The Shema is:

"Hear, O Israel! (name of god) is our God, (name of god) alone."

And that is what religious Jews believe.

What does that have to do with the importance of secular Zionism in the foundation of Israel, or the way that Herzl envisioned religion not playing a large part in the politics of Israel?

415 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:13:04am

re: #411 iossarian

Probably it would mean being a secular state, much like the many other states that have in the past had strong ties to a specific religion, but which do not any more.

And that would be the end of the Jews. We've been down that road here before.

Herzl's, although not particularly religious growing up, had a life change when he witnessed the Dreyfus affair and understood that we needed our homeland back or we could never be safe.

416 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:13:36am

re: #414 Obdicut

What on earth does that have to do with anything?

The Shema is:

"Hear, O Israel! (name of god) is our God, (name of god) alone."

And that is what religious Jews believe.

What does that have to do with the importance of secular Zionism in the foundation of Israel, or the way that Herzl envisioned religion not playing a large part in the politics of Israel?

What do you think Israel means in that sentence? Who are we talking to?

417 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:13:44am

re: #415 marjoriemoon

His life change wasn't becoming more religious, though.

418 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:14:32am

You asked what Israel means. Israel is all of it. It's God, it's the Jews and it's the land.

419 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:15:09am

re: #407 Jimmah

Ludwig - I'll tell you what I'm sick of - having all manner of bollocks projected onto me by someone who can't accept that he crossed the line, and is sounding just like Geller and chums.

False mis-characterization for any number of reasons. I am nothing like Gellar and Chums. I am talking about a real world,. happening now war where people I know and love are threatened.

Ice and I have friends in Israel who believe such rhetoric directly endangers them.

I think Gellar and chums damages Israel, by making it impossible to talk respectfully about Jewish rights or the desire of Jews to say enough is enough already. I'm still pissed about the Foegels. remember them? How about the thousand atrocities before?

I agree with them - and my feelings on this are the same no matter who happens to be coming out with this garbage.

Yeah only I am not, and you pointedly ignored all of the facts in my post that addressed you directly.

Now either that means that you can't face those facts because your ego for a win is more important than the truth or you don't care.

I find it very hard to see how people who want to see Israel's problems 'solved' by a gigantic bloodbath have Israel and her people's best interests at heart.

And when you start lashing out at your friends just because they don't agree with you on a position that wouldn't look out of place on 'Atlas Shrugs', or 'Jihadwatch', it's time to give yourself a reality check.

Really, I think if you look through what I wrote here, it becomes super clear what I am saying is nothing at all like that.

420 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:15:31am

re: #416 marjoriemoon

What do you think Israel means in that sentence? Who are we talking to?

Who is 'we'? I think that it is something said by religious Jews about the nation of Jews, asserting that (name of god) is the god of the Jews.

Again:


What does that have to do with the importance of secular Zionism in the foundation of Israel, or the way that Herzl envisioned religion not playing a large part in the politics of Israel?

Herzl did not have a life-change where he became more religious. He simply saw that the Jews would never be unpersecuted.

421 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:16:40am

re: #419 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm glad you're still here.

Can you explain why you asserted I was saying a mosque was more important than Jewish religious site?

Can you link to your comment where you explain what you mean by all-out-war?

422 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:16:43am

re: #414 Obdicut

What on earth does that have to do with anything?

The Shema is:

"Hear, O Israel! (name of god) is our God, (name of god) alone."

And that is what religious Jews believe.

What does that have to do with the importance of secular Zionism in the foundation of Israel, or the way that Herzl envisioned religion not playing a large part in the politics of Israel?

Obdi, what is the rest of it? The bits about the land?

I am not trying to say you don't have any point. Israel actually is a secular state. But it is Jewish secular state, the only one, and there are certain things it means to be a Jew.

423 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:17:17am

re: #418 marjoriemoon

You asked what Israel means. Israel is all of it. It's God, it's the Jews and it's the land.

Not according to Herzl and many of the secular Zionists who founded Israel. Not according to many of the atheist and secular Jews who live, work, love, fight, and die in Israel.

424 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:17:50am

re: #420 Obdicut

Who is 'we'? I think that it is something said by religious Jews about the nation of Jews, asserting that (name of god) is the god of the Jews.

Again:

What does that have to do with the importance of secular Zionism in the foundation of Israel, or the way that Herzl envisioned religion not playing a large part in the politics of Israel?

Herzl did not have a life-change where he became more religious. He simply saw that the Jews would never be unpersecuted.

My meaning is getting lost. "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." We call to all of Israel, the people. WE are Israel. We are part of the land which is Israel. It is one thing, the land and its people.

You asked what Israel means. That's what it means.

425 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:19:09am

re: #424 marjoriemoon

My meaning is getting lost. "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." We call to all of Israel, the people. WE are Israel. We are part of the land which is Israel. It is one thing, the land and its people.

You asked what Israel means. That's what it means.

Are you saying that someone who doesn't believe in the religious part cannot "get" what it means to be an Israeli?

426 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:19:19am

re: #421 Obdicut

I'm glad you're still here.

Can you explain why you asserted I was saying a mosque was more important than Jewish religious site?

Can you link to your comment where you explain what you mean by all-out-war?

Actually I cam back and I did explain the first.

As to the second it very simple. All out war is unrestricted hostilities as per the Geneva convention.

In lay terms that means killing enemies and destroying military targets until the will of the enemy to fight is broken.

News flash any weapons dump or reasonably suspected weapons dump is a military target. And fortifications (like underground tunnels) are military targets. Those who aid and abet hostiles are targets also.

Any questions?

427 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:20:32am

re: #424 marjoriemoon

You asked what Israel means. That's what it means.

To you. It's not what it meant to many of the original Zionist settlers, and to many of the Israelis now.

So where does an Israeli Muslim, an Israeli atheist Jew, fall into this definition of Israel?

428 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:20:51am

re: #425 iossarian

Are you saying that someone who doesn't believe in the religious part cannot "get" what it means to be an Israeli?

No she is saying that if you surrender your Judaism and Jewish identity too much there is no point in being Israeli. She is saying it very eloquently also.

429 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:21:31am

re: #423 Obdicut

Not according to Herzl and many of the secular Zionists who founded Israel. Not according to many of the atheist and secular Jews who live, work, love, fight, and die in Israel.

Yea well that's not really so. No matter Herzl and the Zionist Congress' personal beliefs, they would never disparage religious Jews.

Herzl also believed that the partition of the land would be a piece of cake because the Arabs were not in any way autonomous. They were a mix of many different peoples and hadn't done much with the land to begin with so to have their own country would be a blessing for them. Us, too.

Imagine that.

430 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:21:50am

re: #428 LudwigVanQuixote

No she is saying that if you surrender your Judaism and Jewish identity too much there is no point in being Israeli. She is saying it very eloquently also.

There are non-Jewish Israelis though, right? So presumably they have no "Jewish identity" to surrender in the first place.

431 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:21:54am

re: #426 LudwigVanQuixote

Sure. Are you advocating invasion, then? And since Hamas doesn't have a standing army, who would the IDF be fighting? Who would we be seeking a surrender from?

432 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:22:23am

re: #430 iossarian

There are non-Jewish Israelis though, right? So presumably they have no "Jewish identity" to surrender in the first place.

For them. You are right.

433 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:23:08am

re: #429 marjoriemoon

Yea well that's not really so. No matter Herzl and the Zionist Congress' personal beliefs, they would never disparage religious Jews.

Who is talking about disparaging religious Jews? And what is not really so?

Herzl also believed that the partition of the land would be a piece of cake because the Arabs were not in any way autonomous. They were a mix of many different peoples and hadn't done much with the land to begin with so to have their own country would be a blessing for them. Us, too.

I'm not holding up Herzl as a man who was right about everything. I'm pointing out that a large portion of the history of Israel-- of the existence of Israel-- is due to the blood, sweat, and tears of secular Jews. And still is.

434 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:23:25am

re: #432 LudwigVanQuixote

For them. You are right.

So again, my question was: can those non-Jewish Israelis truly "get" what it means to be an Israeli?

435 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:23:48am

re: #427 Obdicut

To you. It's not what it meant to many of the original Zionist settlers, and to many of the Israelis now.

So where does an Israeli Muslim, an Israeli atheist Jew, fall into this definition of Israel?

Even atheist Jews understand the people and the land are one thing.

436 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:25:36am

re: #435 marjoriemoon

Even atheist Jews understand the people and the land are one thing.

Can you explain why you're asserting this? I'm an atheist Jew. I don't 'understand' this, because I don't think it's at all true.

Why are you confident in saying what an atheist Jew believes? Why do you think they all believe the same thing?

437 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:26:53am

re: #430 iossarian

There are non-Jewish Israelis though, right? So presumably they have no "Jewish identity" to surrender in the first place.

Israel is primarily Jewish. Nazarath and Bethlehem were Christian cities until the P.A. took over and now they are majority Muslim. The Christians have left.

438 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:27:46am

re: #431 Obdicut

Sure. Are you advocating invasion, then? And since Hamas doesn't have a standing army, who would the IDF be fighting? Who would we be seeking a surrender from?

Well, while are at it, any industry or infrastructure is also a target, and as lefties like to point out repeatedly, Hamas is the democratically elected government...

That part is a two edged sword.

I am all for as a fist step cutting off power and water until hostages taken by the democratically elected government are returned.

If they double down,

You need to take out their bunkers and tunnel systems. I hope I do not piss anyone off by saying this, but from a purely military view, is to recognize that the tunnel systems are underground and have multiple entrances and exits as well as munitions dumps. The best way to clear that is to find ten or so entrances in a given area and pump napalm down the hole.

If you do this in enough places you will burn out the oxygen in the tunnel system and possible set off munitions dumps as well.

This will limit civilian casualties in general, but it will also likely burn down those homes in the tunnel network.

That makes it a win win and it also gets the leadership.

439 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:28:23am

re: #419 LudwigVanQuixote

I find it very hard to see how people who want to see Israel's problems 'solved' by a gigantic bloodbath have Israel and her people's best interests at heart.

How is that different from saying that "all out war" is the only answer?

440 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:29:23am

re: #436 Obdicut

Can you explain why you're asserting this? I'm an atheist Jew. I don't 'understand' this, because I don't think it's at all true.

Why are you confident in saying what an atheist Jew believes? Why do you think they all believe the same thing?

It's a Kabbalist answer really, the land and the people being one thing and I can't really explain it, but I've never met a Jew who doesn't feel it and quite frankly, I'm not sure I want to.

Oh well not true. One friend of mine has no connection to Judaism (born Jewish) or Israel and she's rather self-loathing. We don't talk much.

441 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:29:29am

re: #437 marjoriemoon

Israel is primarily Jewish. Nazarath and Bethlehem were Christian cities until the P.A. took over and now they are majority Muslim. The Christians have left.

Those are indeed the facts on the ground, but it doesn't answer my question as to whether it is possible for a non-Jewish Israeli to truly understand what it "means to be an Israeli".

442 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:31:04am

re: #440 marjoriemoon

I don't believe the land and the people are one. Neither did Herzl, who was considering Venezuela as a possible land for Jewish emigration. I also think that the non-Jewish Israeli citizens are as much citizens of Israel as Jews are.

Do you?

443 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:31:45am

re: #434 iossarian

So again, my question was: can those non-Jewish Israelis truly "get" what it means to be an Israeli?

There are plenty of Israeli Arabs who see it as their home and they fight and serve Israel honestly. That is fair enough.

The issue really is coming in with those symbols of national identity that are Jewish, as in the Jewish nation. As in Klal Y'Israel. Not Israel the political entity but Israel the people. You are either a member or not. You either care about that identity or you don't

And there is your distinction.

444 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:31:51am

re: #441 iossarian

Those are indeed the facts on the ground, but it doesn't answer my question as to whether it is possible for a non-Jewish Israeli to truly understand what it "means to be an Israeli".

I can't answer your question. It's like saying, what's the difference between an Italian raised in Italy or one raised in NY.

445 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:32:17am

re: #439 wrenchwench

How is that different from saying that "all out war" is the only answer?

That is not my quote. That is WUB bloviating.

446 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:32:28am

re: #442 Obdicut

I don't believe the land and the people are one. Neither did Herzl, who was considering Venezuela as a possible land for Jewish emigration. I also think that the non-Jewish Israeli citizens are as much citizens of Israel as Jews are.

Do you?

Uganda, not Venezula.

And I didn't say that we're any better or worse so don't put words in my mouth.

447 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:32:38am

re: #438 LudwigVanQuixote

So what are the victory conditions you're looking for? Return of hostages?

448 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:33:13am

re: #445 LudwigVanQuixote

That is not my quote. That is WUB bloviating.

PIMF... oops Jimmah write that. Anyway it was not mine.

449 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:34:12am

re: #447 Obdicut

So what are the victory conditions you're looking for? Return of hostages?

Victory conditions are that the attacks and hostage taking ends.

That will require forcing the other nations in the regions out of the conflict defacto if not de jura and breaking the will of the Palestinians to fight.

450 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:35:25am

re: #446 marjoriemoon

Uganda, not Venezula.

And I didn't say that we're any better or worse so don't put words in my mouth.

I didn't put any words in your mouth whatseover. I asked if you saw non-Jewish citizens of Israel as 'as much' citizens of Israel as Jews are. I also didn't raise the concept of 'better'.

Thank you for the correction; you're absolutely right that Herzl had Uganda as a possible new homeland for the Jews, not Venezuela. The point remains.

451 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:37:12am

re: #450 Obdicut

I didn't put any words in your mouth whatseover. I asked if you saw non-Jewish citizens of Israel as 'as much' citizens of Israel as Jews are. I also didn't raise the concept of 'better'.

Thank you for the correction; you're absolutely right that Herzl had Uganda as a possible new homeland for the Jews, not Venezuela. The point remains.

Of course they are as much citizens as anyone. They have the same rights as everyone else. But Israel will never mean the same to a Muslim or Christian than it will mean to a Jew.

452 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:37:40am

re: #352 LudwigVanQuixote

Alright.

That is the offensive comment.

Fine.

Charles it is your blog. I am not blowing smoke up your ass. I know that what I wrote was provocative and if you think that was too much then so be it.

I am not angry at you or trying to mess with you.

I am however very convinced that the only thing that will end this nonsense is a decisive fight. I have no illusions about that fight being pretty.

I also, surprisingly don't want it to come to that and still pray it doesn't.

That said, when it does, I want my people to win and I don't want any questions about who was right.

And winning means fighting and winning an all out war.

re: #445 LudwigVanQuixote

That is not my quote. That is WUB bloviating.

The least I can do is fact check.

453 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:40:15am

re: #449 LudwigVanQuixote

Victory conditions are that the attacks and hostage taking ends.

That will require forcing the other nations in the regions out of the conflict defacto if not de jura and breaking the will of the Palestinians to fight.

So as long as any group of Palestinians, no matter how small and unconnected with the rest, launch attacks on Israel, you would continue to bomb Palestine's infrastructure?

454 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:40:49am

re: #444 marjoriemoon

I can't answer your question. It's like saying, what's the difference between an Italian raised in Italy or one raised in NY.

An "Italian" raised in New York is not an "Italian" unless she has citizenship in Italy, she is an "American of Italian descent" or whatever you want to call her.

Or rather, I should say that Italians-who-are-citizens-of-Italy do not think of Italians-who-are-Americans-but-call-themselves-Italians as "Italians".

I think that mixing ethnic or religious group membership with nation-state citizenship is immensely problematic (I think that nation-states themselves are problematic, but many of the problems are largely neutralized by eliminating ethnic and religious criteria for membership).

455 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:42:22am

re: #452 Stanley Sea

Can we all stop poking Ludwig with a stick?

I don't like what he said. And I don't agree on an allout war. I think if we're going to be friends with Muslims we have to play backgammon or something and stop talking about who owns what. And they should stop shooting at us because as long as they do, we are going to shoot back. That's the crux of it.

456 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:42:35am

re: #452 Stanley Sea

re: #445 LudwigVanQuixote

The least I can do is fact check.

Oy hoisted by literalism. There are multiple ways to read things.

You are correct in this sense.

Ok the distinction is what kills fewer people in the long run.

You are free to disagree with me, but I am very much at the point of believing that any sort of peace from the present status quo is impossible. The only peace I think will come is in the aftermath of a decisive victory.

I am tired of hearing about my people constantly picked off. I am really tired about the obvious lesson that the Zionists were correct on this thread.

The Zionists taught that Jews had better stick up for themselves because damn few others will.

Consider this: a Causus Belli is just that. Israel has one in spades and in atack after attack on her people. Enough is enough.

457 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:42:36am

re: #451 marjoriemoon

Of course they are as much citizens as anyone. They have the same rights as everyone else. But Israel will never mean the same to a Muslim or Christian than it will mean to a Jew.

But then there is a concept of "Israel" that includes more than the Jewish people, right? There's a concept of Israel that includes all the citizens of Israel. In that concept, the people and the land are not one; or 'the people' would mean all the citizens, not just the Jewish-- or religiously Jewish-- ones.

458 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:43:25am

re: #454 iossarian

An "Italian" raised in New York is not an "Italian" unless she has citizenship in Italy, she is an "American of Italian descent" or whatever you want to call her.

Or rather, I should say that Italians-who-are-citizens-of-Italy do not think of Italians-who-are-Americans-but-call-themselves-Ita lians as "Italians".

I think that mixing ethnic or religious group membership with nation-state citizenship is immensely problematic (I think that nation-states themselves are problematic, but many of the problems are largely neutralized by eliminating ethnic and religious criteria for membership).

LOL Ok, I'll tell that to my Italian friends. They aren't "true" Italians.

459 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:43:44am

re: #453 Obdicut

So as long as any group of Palestinians, no matter how small and unconnected with the rest, launch attacks on Israel, you would continue to bomb Palestine's infrastructure?

ONly it isn't small or unconnected as it is the democratically elected government that won by a landslide.

That is the place where the left wing arguments - and yours falls to pieces. I am more than a little shocked you would have the chutzpah to try such crap with me Obdi. You are better than that.

460 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:43:47am

re: #456 LudwigVanQuixote

Where I disagree with you-- and where others have disagreed-- is whether such a decisive victory is possible, given the circumstances. For some reason, you've interpreted this to mean any number of other things.

461 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:44:05am

re: #458 marjoriemoon

LOL Ok, I'll tell that to my Italian friends. They aren't "true" Italians.

As I said, they can think what they like, but the Italians in Italy don't think of them as being particularly Italian.

462 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:44:41am

re: #459 LudwigVanQuixote

ONly it isn't small or unconnected as it is the democratically elected government that won by a landslide.

Yes, that's what it is right now. However, what you said would be the terms of victory would be that the attacks and kidnappings stop. I am in no way saying that the current groups are unconnected or small.

That is the place where the left wing arguments - and yours falls to pieces. I am more than a little shocked you would have the chutzpah to try such crap with me Obdi. You are better than that.

Well, when you pretend my argument is other than it is, yes, it will appear crappy.

463 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:44:54am

re: #460 Obdicut

Where I disagree with you-- and where others have disagreed-- is whether such a decisive victory is possible, given the circumstances. For some reason, you've interpreted this to mean any number of other things.

That is another discussion.

464 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:44:56am

re: #455 marjoriemoon

Can we all stop poking Ludwig with a stick?

I don't like what he said. And I don't agree on an allout war. I think if we're going to be friends with Muslims we have to play backgammon or something and stop talking about who owns what. And they should stop shooting at us because as long as they do, we are going to shoot back. That's the crux of it.

Shit, quoting someone who denies saying said quote (with shot at WUB included) is not poking with a stick, it's fact checking.

465 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:45:05am

re: #461 iossarian

As I said, they can think what they like, but the Italians in Italy don't think of them as being particularly Italian.

Italians themselves don't think of themselves as particularly Italian. They identify first by their city/region, afterwards as Italian.

466 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:45:18am

re: #461 iossarian

As I said, they can think what they like, but the Italians in Italy don't think of them as being particularly Italian.

PS, this is always something that comes as a disappointment to Americans when they visit the "old country". And I apologize for being mean-spirited, because to be fair most Europeans tend to be politely interested in hearing about their American visitors' ancestry.

467 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:45:58am

re: #463 LudwigVanQuixote

That is another discussion.

No, that's part of this discussion. If such a decisive victory is not possible, then your calls for all-out-war would not lead to fewer deaths, but more deaths.

468 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:46:22am

re: #464 Stanley Sea

Shit, quoting someone who denies saying said quote (with shot at WUB included) is not poking with a stick, it's fact checking.

Actually I see why you wrote what you did. It's ok. The literal quote wrench quoted was not mine.

However, I certainly am arguing that the "peace process" is useless.

469 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:46:24am

#448 LudwigVanQuixote

PIMF... oops Jimmah write that. Anyway it was not mine.

Sorry, I went back and saw it was supposed to be a quote. Then I saw Stanley's fact check. Now what?

re: #438 LudwigVanQuixote

If the method you suggest is militarily the best (specifically re: tunnels and napalm), why is it not the one chosen by the IDF, even during Operation Cast Lead?

470 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:47:43am

re: #457 Obdicut

But then there is a concept of "Israel" that includes more than the Jewish people, right? There's a concept of Israel that includes all the citizens of Israel. In that concept, the people and the land are not one; or 'the people' would mean all the citizens, not just the Jewish-- or religiously Jewish-- ones.

Everyone's homeland means something different to them than another piece of land. Is that a hard concept to grasp? Why are the Jews different than the French, the Italians, the Germans, the Jordanians, anyone?

471 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:48:32am

re: #464 Stanley Sea

Shit, quoting someone who denies saying said quote (with shot at WUB included) is not poking with a stick, it's fact checking.

Out of my way woman! I take no prisoners!!!

472 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:49:17am

re: #462 Obdicut


Well, when you pretend my argument is other than it is, yes, it will appear crappy.

Obdi... for real? OK, you know I like you, so please please see that as mitigating what I write to not have malice.


Then when you wrote:

So as long as any group of Palestinians, no matter how small and unconnected with the rest, launch attacks on Israel, you would continue to bomb Palestine's infrastructure?

OK my bad...

You were simply creating a ridiculous straw man...

I will be more accurate about how your arguments are crappy in the future when they are.

473 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:50:20am

re: #470 marjoriemoon

Everyone's homeland means something different to them than another piece of land. Is that a hard concept to grasp? Why are the Jews different than the French, the Italians, the Germans, the Jordanians, anyone?

I don't think anyone disagrees with this. The point was that there can be people who are not Jewish but who think of Israel as "home".

A lot of the disagreements seem to stem from the mixing of terms "Israeli" and "Jewish" (not helped by the fact that "Israel" is also used to stand for the Jewish people).

474 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:51:07am

re: #470 marjoriemoon

Everyone's homeland means something different to them than another piece of land. Is that a hard concept to grasp? Why are the Jews different than the French, the Italians, the Germans, the Jordanians, anyone?

In terms of time scale, the current people who occupy French are not, in fact, from there. The English aren't either. Both areas were occupied by Celts, who were largely displaced by other migrations.

I don't understand what your response meant, juxtaposed with what I said. I'm saying that Israel means, as well as the Jewish people of Israel, the non-Jewish people of Israel. It does not just mean the land and the Jews.

475 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:51:26am

re: #469 wrenchwench

#448 LudwigVanQuixote

Sorry, I went back and saw it was supposed to be a quote. Then I saw Stanley's fact check. Now what?

If the method you suggest is militarily the best (specifically re: tunnels and napalm), why is it not the one chosen by the IDF, even during Operation Cast Lead?

Well first off I really don't claim to be a general.

They may well have a thousand even better ways to do the job.

However, why they don't take stronger actions than they do is very obvious to anyone who follows this. Right? They are terrified of looking bad to the extent they hamstring themselves for a world stage that will always paint them as the villain anyway.

You know this is true. You do. You have said so yourself, or words to that effect in the past.

476 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:53:14am

re: #459 LudwigVanQuixote

ONly it isn't small or unconnected as it is the democratically elected government that won by a landslide.

That is the place where the left wing arguments - and yours falls to pieces. I am more than a little shocked you would have the chutzpah to try such crap with me Obdi. You are better than that.

I read it was 44% of the electorate. Does that justify the broad brush you paint them all with?

477 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:54:55am

re: #473 iossarian

I don't think anyone disagrees with this. The point was that there can be people who are not Jewish but who think of Israel as "home".

A lot of the disagreements seem to stem from the mixing of terms "Israeli" and "Jewish" (not helped by the fact that "Israel" is also used to stand for the Jewish people).

I didn't mean to imply that other people wouldn't consider it home and I'm not sure who you got that or you're just goading me.

However, Israel is the Jewish state, whether people are pleased with that or not. It is our homeland, whether people are pleased with that or not.

And who says we're not sharing the land? Is that what you're saying or trying to get me to say? Who agreed to the partition in 1947 and who didn't? Who made war with the Jews? Not the other way around. So why don't you ask the Arabs in the region the same question and see what their answer is.

478 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 11:56:01am

re: #475 LudwigVanQuixote

Well first off I really don't claim to be a general.

They may well have a thousand even better ways to do the job.

However, why they don't take stronger actions than they do is very obvious to anyone who follows this. Right? They are terrified of looking bad to the extent they hamstring themselves for a world stage that will always paint them as the villain anyway.

You know this is true. You do. You have said so yourself, or words to that effect in the past.

If you trust that the IDF has Israel's best interests at heart, you are working against them by calling for measures they obviously see as unhelpful. I certainly don't believe the IDF would endanger Israel to avoid "looking bad".

479 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:07:06pm

re: #476 wrenchwench

I read it was 44% of the electorate. Does that justify the broad brush you paint them all with?

1/2 (roughly) voted for Hamas, the other half (roughly) voted for Fatah. Split the people down the middle.

480 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:10:49pm

re: #479 marjoriemoon

And Fatah also refuses to recognize Israel. In fact, it's main goal is "complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence."

So the overwhelming majority of Palestinians did vote for entities calling for the destruction of Israel. That is not in any way in doubt.

481 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:10:54pm

re: #477 marjoriemoon

I didn't mean to imply that other people wouldn't consider it home and I'm not sure who you got that or you're just goading me.

I am not trying to goad you. I am however asking a pointed question because I believe that it is at the root of most of these problems.


However, Israel is the Jewish state, whether people are pleased with that or not. It is our homeland, whether people are pleased with that or not.

But of course, there was a point far back in time when the part of the world now called "Israel" was not a Jewish state. Over time, people lay claim to pieces of land, and use various methods to legitimize those claims.

I think that using religion, ethnicity, and other such more-or-less exclusionary identity definitions to decide ownership of pieces of land and/or membership of a state is not conducive to long-term stability.


And who says we're not sharing the land? Is that what you're saying or trying to get me to say? Who agreed to the partition in 1947 and who didn't? Who made war with the Jews? Not the other way around. So why don't you ask the Arabs in the region the same question and see what their answer is.

I completely agree that Israel is vastly more sinned against than sinner in current and recent conflicts. However that doesn't change the fact that there are real problems that arise from the blurring of religious identity and citizenship, in Israel and of course in other parts of the world as well.

482 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:11:16pm

re: #419 LudwigVanQuixote

False mis-characterization for any number of reasons. I am nothing like Gellar and Chums.

Yet just about everyone else here, including Charles, has reprimanded you for sounding just like them. You might want to think about how that happened.

Yeah only I am not, and you pointedly ignored all of the facts in my post that addressed you directly.

Now either that means that you can't face those facts because your ego for a win is more important than the truth or you don't care.

Or maybe those facts aren't in any way relevant to my objection to your extremist rhetoric here, and that's why I ignored them. I'm really getting tired of this idea that the desire for peace in the middle east and the belief that it is possible (without fulfilling umpteen wingnut fantasies) must be predicated on a set of naive misconceptions about Palestinian terrorism.

Really, I think if you look through what I wrote here, it becomes super clear what I am saying is nothing at all like that.

It's clear to many here that you have indeed been making statements that would fit on a wingnut site very nicely. That's what everyone was objecting to.

And it's undeniably clear that you have been lashing out at your friends, for exactly the reason I gave.

As for this:

Ohh because those dead Jews don't count. Assume you are now on the permanent to hell with you list.

I've been pretty laid back about some of the weird shitty comments that you've directed at ice and me recently. After this, I think it's time just to tell you to fuck off.

Or as we say around these parts,

"Awa an' bile yer heid, ya numptie".

483 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:11:17pm

Which reminds me.

It's been 5 years since the "elections" so what's going on? There was supposed to be a new election in 2010 which was postponed until Oct 2011. Anyone making wagers?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Hamas immediately announced that it would not participate in the election nor recognise its results[4] because it said that the electoral "procedure is invalid because president Mahmoud Abbas has no legitimacy and is not fit to organise such elections."[5] This meant the election could occur only in the West Bank.[3]

However, Abbas announced on 17 February 2011 that elections would not be held if Hamas was opposed to voting occurring in Gaza.[6]

So glad they are thinking of the people.

484 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:13:02pm

re: #481 iossarian

I am not trying to goad you. I am however asking a pointed question because I believe that it is at the root of most of these problems.

But of course, there was a point far back in time when the part of the world now called "Israel" was not a Jewish state. Over time, people lay claim to pieces of land, and use various methods to legitimize those claims.

I think that using religion, ethnicity, and other such more-or-less exclusionary identity definitions to decide ownership of pieces of land and/or membership of a state is not conducive to long-term stability.

I completely agree that Israel is vastly more sinned against than sinner in current and recent conflicts. However that doesn't change the fact that there are real problems that arise from the blurring of religious identity and citizenship, in Israel and of course in other parts of the world as well.

Muslims have mecca.

Catholics have the Vatican.

Buddhists have India.

Have a problem with any of that?

485 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:17:54pm

re: #484 marjoriemoon

The Vatican is not an especially holy site to Catholics, and certainly nothing like a homeland. India is not very Buddhist at all.

486 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:18:48pm

re: #484 marjoriemoon

Muslims have mecca.

Catholics have the Vatican.

Buddhists have India.

Have a problem with any of that?

I do, in fact, "have a problem" with the fact that (some) Muslims are very exclusionary when it comes to their holy sites. I similarly have a problem with those Catholics and Protestants who refuse to offer communion to people they do not consider to be "in" their church. I think all of these uses of religion to exclude people are reprehensible. The practice of not allowing Catholics in the police force in Northern Ireland was one of the single biggest factors in prolonging the violence there.

The statement "Buddhists have India" I will not address as I don't really see the point. India has a variety of problems, but monoculture is not one of them.

487 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:19:05pm

re: #481 iossarian

I am not trying to goad you. I am however asking a pointed question because I believe that it is at the root of most of these problems.

But of course, there was a point far back in time when the part of the world now called "Israel" was not a Jewish state. Over time, people lay claim to pieces of land, and use various methods to legitimize those claims.

I think that using religion, ethnicity, and other such more-or-less exclusionary identity definitions to decide ownership of pieces of land and/or membership of a state is not conducive to long-term stability.

I completely agree that Israel is vastly more sinned against than sinner in current and recent conflicts. However that doesn't change the fact that there are real problems that arise from the blurring of religious identity and citizenship, in Israel and of course in other parts of the world as well.

Every other religion can have a "seat" and every other religion can have their followers live there and it can be considered a holy city. All those other cities can have lots of citizens of many faiths, too. But only one should be admonished? Ok.

488 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:21:41pm

re: #486 iossarian

I do, in fact, "have a problem" with the fact that (some) Muslims are very exclusionary when it comes to their holy sites. I similarly have a problem with those Catholics and Protestants who refuse to offer communion to people they do not consider to be "in" their church. I think all of these uses of religion to exclude people are reprehensible. The practice of not allowing Catholics in the police force in Northern Ireland was one of the single biggest factors in prolonging the violence there.

The statement "Buddhists have India" I will not address as I don't really see the point. India has a variety of problems, but monoculture is not one of them.

Actually, the Buddhists have a number of holy places so maybe not a good example. (Nepal, Sri Lanka)

My point is, no one seems to have a problem with the Muslims having Mecca or the Catholics having Vatican City.

489 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:23:57pm

re: #485 Obdicut

The Vatican is not an especially holy site to Catholics, and certainly nothing like a homeland. India is not very Buddhist at all.

Really? The Vatican isn't holy to Catholics? Where is Reine when I need her!!!

490 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:24:15pm

re: #487 marjoriemoon

Every other religion can have a "seat" and every other religion can have their followers live there and it can be considered a holy city. All those other cities can have lots of citizens of many faiths, too. But only one should be admonished? Ok.

I've really lost track of what you're saying.

The Vatican is not in any way the homeland of Catholics. It's a sacred place, but it's not of overweening importance to Catholics. The personage of the Pope is the important part; the Vatican is important mostly because that's where the pope is.

Buddhism has no particular seat. The original homeland of Buddhism, India, is largely Hindu, and what isn't Hindu is mostly Islamic, Sikh, Jainist, or Christian. Tibet is sort of a Buddhist homeland, as is Japan, but there's no one Buddhist holy city.

re: #488 marjoriemoon

My point is, no one seems to have a problem with the Muslims having Mecca or the Catholics having Vatican City.

I have a big problem with the way that the Saudis administrate Mecca, actually.

491 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:24:33pm

re: #488 marjoriemoon

Actually, the Buddhists have a number of holy places so maybe not a good example. (Nepal, Sri Lanka)

My point is, no one seems to have a problem with the Muslims having Mecca or the Catholics having Vatican City.


Actually, I just said that I do have a problem with the Muslims "having" Mecca, if by that we mean that non-Muslims are not allowed to benefit from the non-spiritual aspects of Mecca to the same extent as Muslims.

492 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:26:05pm

re: #489 marjoriemoon

Really? The Vatican isn't holy to Catholics? Where is Reine when I need her!!!

St. Peter's Basilica is a holy site. But there are lots and lots of sacred Cathedrals for Catholics.

As I said, the pope himself is the seat of Catholicism.

493 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:32:34pm

re: #492 Obdicut

Oh, and the Basilica of St. John Lateran, which technically outranks St. Peter's, but very few people treat it that way.

494 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:42:23pm

In fact, in 1870 Italy declared war on the Papal States, and conquered them-- in a largely bloodless affair, though the Pope ordered his forces to resist at least a little. The Vatican as it stands was created in 1929.

495 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:43:32pm

re: #491 iossarian

Actually, I just said that I do have a problem with the Muslims "having" Mecca, if by that we mean that non-Muslims are not allowed to benefit from the non-spiritual aspects of Mecca to the same extent as Muslims.

Do you even know what you're talking about? The Saudis do not allow Jews or Christians to practice their religions AT ALL. Christians had to get special permission to pray at the military bases. Jews were only allowed to pray on the warships and not on the soil.

How many Christian Churches are in Israel, how many mosques? You talk to me like you know what you're saying and you have no clue

And btw, I found 2 Buddhist cities.

Burma - 89% Buddhist
Cambodia - 95% Buddhist

Just to let you know? I've had enough of this conversation. I'm sure Charles is at least thankful.

496 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:49:31pm

re: #495 marjoriemoon

Whatever point you were trying to make with the religions and the homelands kind of got lost in the shuffle. Burma and Cambodia (and Tibet, and Japan, and China) are all very Buddhist, but they didn't start out that way. They are not Buddhist homelands.

If what you're saying is that every religion should have a nation, that's wildly problematic.

Israel is a democratic, enlightened state with every bit as much right to exist and defend itself against aggressors as France, the US, or any other nation.

The concept that Israel's right to existence lies in a mandate from God is unworkable, since it will only be accepted by those who believe in that version of God and God's edicts. It is not an argument that can carry weight externally, no matter how much you may believe in it. It also defines Israel in religious terms when many of the original Zionists did not at all intend Israel to be a religious state, and many of the Jewish citizens of Israel now are not observant.

497 iossarian  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 12:53:08pm

re: #495 marjoriemoon

Do you even know what you're talking about? The Saudis do not allow Jews or Christians to practice their religions AT ALL. Christians had to get special permission to pray at the military bases. Jews were only allowed to pray on the warships and not on the soil.

How many Christian Churches are in Israel, how many mosques? You talk to me like you know what you're saying and you have no clue

Thanks for the assumptions about what I do and don't have a clue about. Obdicut's comment #496 is basically what I would have said in response. Invoking God as support for a particular political (in the broad sense) arrangement is the cause of all of these problems.

498 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 2:18:24pm

Sheesh, what a thread.

Was it the Captain Beefheart quote?


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