MI Republican Wants Foster Children to Buy Clothes Only in Thrift Stores

What right wing class war?
Wingnuts • Views: 33,019

Michigan’s Republican State Sen. Bruce Caswell has an idea that I’m sure will be a big hit in today’s GOP. Caswell has proposed that children in the state’s foster care system should only be allowed to buy clothes in second hand stores.

Caswell wants to give foster children and children of the working poor “gift cards” that can only be used at stores such as Goodwill and Salvation Army. His idea wouldn’t save Michigan any money; the clothing allowance would be the same.

Apparently, the only reason for this is sheer mean-spiritedness, and a desire to make sure that poor children know they belong to the underclass.

“I never had anything new,” Caswell says. “I got all the hand-me-downs. And my dad, he did a lot of shopping at the Salvation Army, and his comment was — and quite frankly it’s true — once you’re out of the store and you walk down the street, nobody knows where you bought your clothes.”

(h/t: elizajane.)

UPDATE at 4/24/11 10:33:30 am

Caswell’s experiment in social engineering was dropped from the budget at the last minute.

A last-minute amendment would eliminate the subcommittee’s previous plan to make poor children spend their $79 clothing allowance at the Salvation Army or other thrift stores.

“The state will work with those other retailers to get a discount on clothing that is bought,” said Sen. Bruce Caswell, chairman of the DHS Appropriations Subcommittee.

So the kids will still be getting “special” clothes, which was the point in the first place.

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599 comments
1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:32:44am
“I never had anything new,” Caswell says.

Now if he can only find a way to make them walk, up-hill, both-ways to the stores too! Then they'll really get the lesson!

2 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:34:22am

The man never heard of wishing a better future on kids. Just a craven jealous lout who wants everyone to be as miserable as he is.

3 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:34:32am

The party of limited government.

4 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:34:42am

Some of my best bargains have come by way of bloomingdale's. He would probably choke on that one.

5 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:35:11am

"I never had anything new," Caswell says. "I got all the hand-me-downs."

"A rising tide lifts all boats and when the tide goes out I want to drag you down with me".

--Stephen Colbert

6 albusteve  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:36:09am

they key word here is dignity...if you take it away from someone else, you lose your own....fuck this guy

7 dragonfire1981  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:36:56am

re: #3 Charles

You know I finally nailed down what that meant the other day:

- Limited womens rights
- Limited gay rights
- Limited rights for the poor
- Limited amounts of tax owed by the rich
- Limited rights for anyone who isn't Christian

Yep, that sure is "limited" government isn't it?

8 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:38:12am

Off-topic: Color me annoyed. In observance of Easter Sunday, Berkeley Bowl and Costco are both closed. Yes, voluntarily closed but why is this xtian holiday so special? Surely not all employees are Christian, or even observant Christians and it's not like stores will close for Passover or Yom Kippur. I think it's BS.

9 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:38:28am

Punish the poor; they have obviously done something to displease the Supreme Being.

10 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:39:05am
11 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:39:25am

Foster kids are in the worst possible situation and this cretin thinks its a good idea to legislate further humiliation?

And I bet he's enjoying his after church easter brunch as we speak.

12 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:43:11am

Happy Easter everyone!

13 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:43:52am

re: #12 Aceofwhat?
And a happy holiday to you too.

14 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:44:58am

re: #13 PhillyPretzel

And a happy holiday to you too.

oh noes, the dreaded 'happy holiday' insult//

15 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:46:16am

re: #14 Aceofwhat?
No. Not at all. I want everyone to enjoy their respective holidays.

16 blueraven  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:46:17am

I have no problem with shopping at thrift stores. I do it often myself because I like the hunt for something truly unique. But I have a big problem with this policy as a mandate for poor children. If you need that special occasion item or if you are hard to fit etc...you cant always find what you need. Thrift store shopping is hit or miss, and requires a lot of time.

By the time you drive from one thrift store to the next, how much savings are you really getting? Also some goodwill stores prices are ridiculous. You can find better deals at department stores.

17 bratwurst  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:46:27am

Limiting the maximum amount of salt in a serving of manufactured ketchup is an example of "big government", but telling foster parents where to shop for clothes isn't?!?!

18 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:46:59am

re: #15 PhillyPretzel

No. Not at all. I want everyone to enjoy their respective holidays.

i know. thus the sarc tag. all in good fun-

19 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:50:30am

re: #17 bratwurst

Limiting the maximum amount of salt in a serving of manufactured ketchup is an example of "big government", but telling foster parents where to shop for clothes isn't?!?!

bingo. it's just dumb. we'd be far better off to spend more time making sure that these unfortunate kids' foster homes are safe and nurturing rather than trying to micromanage the situation in exactly the same fashion that republicans (often rightly, imho) bemoan at other times.

20 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:50:48am

You know why this 'fuck the poor' strategy works so well with the teabaggers? They all believe (or want to believe) that they may some day be part of the elite class. In the meantime, they struggle to fill their cars with gas and feed their families just like everyone else.

21 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:52:38am

re: #13 PhillyPretzel

And a happy holiday to you too.

After too many glasses of wine and way too much food at a passover dinner last night, I said, "That's it, I'm ready to go to bed, and when I wake up, it'll be Christmas!" That got a pretty good laugh.

22 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:52:56am
23 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:53:24am

OT: Drudge's racial hatecrime has taken a new twist.....

Chrissy Lee Polis, Victim In Maryland McDonald's Attack, Alleges Hate Crime

A transgender woman whose brutal attack at a McDonald's restaurant in Maryland was captured on video that later went viral said Saturday she was the victim of a hate crime.
....
Polis told the newspaper that after she used the restroom, "They said, 'That's a dude, that's a dude and she's in the female bathroom.'"


Warning: I don't recommend watching the video. It's pretty brutal.

24 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:54:45am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

OT: Drudge's racial hatecrime has taken a new twist...

Chrissy Lee Polis, Victim In Maryland McDonald's Attack, Alleges Hate Crime


Warning: I don't recommend watching the video. It's pretty brutal.

i really don't want to watch the video...is she a true post-op transgender or is it a man who aspires to become anatomically female?

25 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:55:35am

re: #17 bratwurst

Limiting the maximum amount of salt in a serving of manufactured ketchup is an example of "big government", but telling foster parents where to shop for clothes isn't?!?!

Yes it is, of course it is an example of government interference.
These kids have little enough as it is. A yearly clothing allowance of $79? sheesh. I think whoever set that limit hasn't been shopping recently for kids clothes. And I wonder if this guy has a relative or close friend who runs some sort of "thrift" store.

But back to your example: I want neither form of government interference.

26 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:55:52am

Ah, the GOP, the party of "Do as I say, not as I do." If it wasn't for the fact that these people are in a position to truly screw this country over, I'd almost find it laughable.

27 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:57:03am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

OT: Drudge's racial hatecrime has taken a new twist...

Chrissy Lee Polis, Victim In Maryland McDonald's Attack, Alleges Hate Crime


Warning: I don't recommend watching the video. It's pretty brutal.

I watched it yesterday, it is indeed brutal.
The whole thing, the beating itself and the despicable behavior of the Mcdonald's employees who recorded the thing and then told the girls who did the beating to "leave now- the cops are on the way!". Protecting them, not the person laying there having a seizure by that point. It was awful.

28 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:58:19am

re: #26 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Ah, the GOP, the party of "Do as I say, not as I do." If it wasn't for the fact that these people are in a position to truly screw this country over, I'd almost find it laughable.

We're the party of 'do as i say, not as i do' on govt interference. Democrats are the party of 'do as i say, not as i do' on charity.

Let me know when democrats close the significant and persistent charity donation gap on republicans, and all of this 'oh they hate the poor' bullshit might actually be relevant.

29 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:58:48am

re: #3 Charles

The party of limited government compassion.

Fixed.

30 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:01:41am

re: #8 eclectic infidel

Off-topic: Color me annoyed. In observance of Easter Sunday, Berkeley Bowl and Costco are both closed. Yes, voluntarily closed but why is this xtian holiday so special? Surely not all employees are Christian, or even observant Christians and it's not like stores will close for Passover or Yom Kippur. I think it's BS.

Cheer up, here on the Peninsula, Safeway, my local little grocery store, the Menlo Park Farmer's Market, and a plethora of other businesses are open. And well patronized. I would think in any place this diverse most businesses could let the Christians take today off, and various other folks get their holidays with a minimum of fuss and bother.

31 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:02:20am

re: #24 Aceofwhat?

i really don't want to watch the video...is she a true post-op transgender or is it a man who aspires to become anatomically female?

I'm not sure. HuffPoo just says "Transgendered".

32 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:03:15am

re: #27 reine.de.tout

It really bummed me out.

33 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:06:00am

re: #31 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure. HuffPoo just says "Transgendered".

thanks. i think that the subject of transgender individuals and how to balance their [difficult] situation with sensitivity and logic is very interesting, but no one deserves to be beaten like this, and so it's probably not the right occasion for such a discussion.

34 KingKenrod  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:06:51am

re: #24 Aceofwhat?

i really don't want to watch the video...is she a true post-op transgender or is it a man who aspires to become anatomically female?

According to another article, she is post-op:

[Link: www.baltimoresun.com...]

35 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:08:48am

re: #34 KingKenrod

According to another article, she is post-op:

[Link: www.baltimoresun.com...]

then she is in no way a man in a woman's bathroom and doesn't even deserve to be challenged, much less assaulted. may God grant her peace and healing.

36 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:10:24am

re: #28 Aceofwhat?

We're the party of 'do as i say, not as i do' on govt interference. Democrats are the party of 'do as i say, not as i do' on charity.

Let me know when democrats close the significant and persistent charity donation gap on republicans, and all of this 'oh they hate the poor' bullshit might actually be relevant.

Must admit, I'm a might confused. I was always under the impression that it was the GOP that believed that charities were the answer, while Democrats believe that government assistance is the answer. So why does the "gap" matter in this instance?

37 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:12:25am

re: #36 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Must admit, I'm a might confused. I was always under the impression that it was the GOP that believed that charities were the answer, while Democrats believe that government assistance is the answer. So why does the "gap" matter in this instance?

one believes that they need to make a personal contribution and the other believes that they need to make a contribution from someone else's pocket?

forgive me, but i see a gap there.

38 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:14:58am

re: #8 eclectic infidel

Off-topic: Color me annoyed. In observance of Easter Sunday, Berkeley Bowl and Costco are both closed. Yes, voluntarily closed but why is this xtian holiday so special? Surely not all employees are Christian, or even observant Christians and it's not like stores will close for Passover or Yom Kippur. I think it's BS.

I went shopping this morning. Meijer was open, and so was One Stop (local kosher ripoff shop)

Passover is the most expensivist holiday of the whole year!

39 abbyadams  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:15:16am

re: #20 darthstar

This. This. This. I got to the same conclusion a few weeks ago. I really think there is a certain percentage of people that think if "The Government" got out of their way, they would be rich.

It's like one of my ex-students told me: "Oh, I could have been a doctor but my teachers didn't like me." Meanwhile, this person never showed up for class, did any work, or showed any real interest in doing anything they needed to become a doctor.

40 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:17:30am

re: #17 bratwurst

Limiting the maximum amount of salt in a serving of manufactured ketchup is an example of "big government"

No no, it's tyrannical fascism. Just ask Mark Levin. People in Lebanon and Syria keep throwing parades expressing how overjoyed they are at not having to live in a despotic hell-hole like the US under the infinitely evil Barack Obama.
They marvel at the valiant courage of American protesters who, under the very real threat of being filmed and ridiculed on YouTube, bravely gather in solidarity with misspelled signs depicting the President with a Hitler mustache and demanding lower taxes for Jerry Jones.

41 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:17:45am

re: #39 abbyadams

This. This. This. I got to the same conclusion a few weeks ago. I really think there is a certain percentage of people that think if "The Government" got out of their way, they would be rich.

It's like one of my ex-students told me: "Oh, I could have been a doctor but my teachers didn't like me." Meanwhile, this person never showed up for class, did any work, or showed any real interest in doing anything they needed to become a doctor.

And if the government doesn't "get out of their way" its a great excuse for why they aren't rich.

42 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:18:46am

re: #39 abbyadams

This. This. This. I got to the same conclusion a few weeks ago. I really think there is a certain percentage of people that think if "The Government" got out of their way, they would be rich.

It's like one of my ex-students told me: "Oh, I could have been a doctor but my teachers didn't like me." Meanwhile, this person never showed up for class, did any work, or showed any real interest in doing anything they needed to become a doctor.

The government has never made anyone rich who wasn't already rich or connected. I fail to see why optimism and self-reliance should be considered detrimental to our country's prosperity and success.

43 abbyadams  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:21:52am

re: #42 Aceofwhat?

So do I. It's just easier to blame something you have now power to control on your fate than to actually get off your duff and do something about it.

44 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:22:49am

re: #42 Aceofwhat?

The government has never made anyone rich who wasn't already rich or connected. I fail to see why optimism and self-reliance should be considered detrimental to our country's prosperity and success.

When that optimism causes people to vote for selfish assholes who will continue to make policy favoring the rich at their expense, yes. I can see why these ignoramuses believe that blacks fought for the south to preserve slavery in the Civil War...what they're doing isn't that different.

45 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:23:44am

re: #42 Aceofwhat?

The government has never made anyone rich who wasn't already rich or connected. I fail to see why optimism and self-reliance should be considered detrimental to our country's prosperity and success.

There's nothing wrong with optimism or self-reliance, but the myth of individual self-reliance is hugely overblown in our culture. Most successful people have had help from others-including through the agency of government-in most cases. There's education (one's own and employees'), infrastructure, government programs to help buy houses and start businesses, etc., etc. Its cruel to suggest that those who need help affording food, or medicine need to pull up their socks and deal with it.

46 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:25:16am

re: #45 calochortus

Its cruel to suggest that those who need help affording food, or medicine need to pull up their socks and deal with it.


Hey, as long as they don't die in my yard...
//

47 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:25:26am

re: #43 abbyadams

So do I. It's just easier to blame something you have now power to control on your fate than to actually get off your duff and do something about it.

on this we agree completely. such pronouncements from people who aren't in the middle of action ring very hollow.

48 abbyadams  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:25:39am

re: #45 calochortus

As someone who wouldn't ever have been able to afford college without grants and loans, I agree.

49 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:26:45am

re: #37 Aceofwhat?

one believes that they need to make a personal contribution and the other believes that they need to make a contribution from someone else's pocket?

forgive me, but i see a gap there.

I see a difference in personal ideology, believing that one should rely upon the kindness of others versus believing society has an obligation to help those who can't help themselves.

50 BishopX  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:28:00am

re: #42 Aceofwhat?

The government has never made anyone rich who wasn't already rich or connected. I fail to see why optimism and self-reliance should be considered detrimental to our country's prosperity and success.

The government has made lot's of people rich who started life neither rich nor well connected. The GI bill worked wonders in this regard. Modern day college loans do similar things.

51 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:28:25am

re: #6 albusteve

they key word here is dignity...if you take it away from someone else, you lose your own...fuck this guy

Amen! This guy was clearly left with an inferiority complex and wants to pass that on to as many people as possible. Who says struggle creates empathy for others? Sometimes it create "Fuck you, I got mine".

52 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:28:29am

re: #49 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I see a difference in personal ideology, believing that one should rely upon the kindness of others versus believing society has an obligation to help those who can't help themselves.

Put me down as a supporter of society's obligation.

53 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:32:35am

re: #45 calochortus

There's nothing wrong with optimism or self-reliance, but the myth of individual self-reliance is hugely overblown in our culture. Most successful people have had help from others-including through the agency of government-in most cases. There's education (one's own and employees'), infrastructure, government programs to help buy houses and start businesses, etc., etc. Its cruel to suggest that those who need help affording food, or medicine need to pull up their socks and deal with it.

Of course, i'm not talking about staples such as education, infrastructure, defense, etc.

But it is not cruel to suggest that those who need help affording the basics pull up their socks while receiving assistance. And not overblown is the frequency with which fundamental values such as dependability and work ethic coincide with improved economic situations.

Sometimes a poor person is a victim of circumstance. Sometimes they're a victim of their own poor decisions/effort. Denying that either population exists in large numbers strikes me as naïve.

54 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:34:22am

re: #50 BishopX

The government has made lot's of people rich who started life neither rich nor well connected. The GI bill worked wonders in this regard. Modern day college loans do similar things.

no, that is opportunity. the government provided opportunities. they still needed to be seized.

but yes, many government structures such as this are hugely beneficial and not to be overlooked. on that we are agreed.

55 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:34:24am

re: #50 BishopX

The government has made lot's of people rich who started life neither rich nor well connected. The GI bill worked wonders in this regard. Modern day college loans do similar things.

Yep. The GI Bill has educated the thousands of doctors, engineers, and scientists that have pushed this country to become a superpower, as well as helped create the middle class that drove so much of our economic might through the 20th century.

56 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:36:46am

re: #49 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I see a difference in personal ideology, believing that one should rely upon the kindness of others versus believing society has an obligation to help those who can't help themselves.

and truly, we're better off with a combination of the two. i simply find the belief in a societal obligation without a sense of personal obligation to be as selfish as the inverse. because then it truly is "i think someone else should really take care of the poor". that's not exactly a compassionate attitude.

57 avanti  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:37:37am

Funny related story. I made a trip to the local Goodwill to pick up some work shoes. I buy them there because I ruin shoes in a few months painting and working on Studebakers and can get serviceable shoes for a few bucks . That day, I was in my typical, nasty, work outfit complete with grease and paint stains and a few holes to boot.

I happened upon a brand new pair of expensive dress shoes priced at $40.00 and made my way to the counter with them and some cheapies. The checkout gal looked at me, than the dress shoes and said with a touch of disdain "You know these are $20.00, not $2.00 don't you ?" Just to be nasty, I whipped out a $100.00 bill and handed it to her.

58 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:38:56am

re: #57 avanti
That was probably the first C note she ever saw.

59 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:39:39am

re: #39 abbyadams

re: #42 Aceofwhat?

re: #45 calochortus

I put a lot of the blame for this magical thinking at the feet of Horatio Alger, and I'm all but about 7% completely serious about that.

60 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:40:30am

re: #53 Aceofwhat?

I understand what you are saying, but I think I come down on the side of greater assistance to those who need it. So much is subjective. Among other things, I have long wrestled with the question of people who consistently make poor decisions. Some of them may be willfully gaming the system, but some may have mental/emotional deficits that make it impossible to plan effectively just as someone with an IQ of 50 isn't expected to function independently. How do you know? I don't have an answer.

Additionally, you sort of dismiss the education and infrastructure as "of course we need it". Well, that's the stuff most of us here are likely to need. We're all smart enough and well off enough to have internet access and the free time to bandy words here. That suggests that we aren't at the bottom of the ladder. There may be other things that the government should subsidize for people who have different needs.

61 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:41:09am

re: #28 Aceofwhat?

We're the party of 'do as i say, not as i do' on govt interference. Democrats are the party of 'do as i say, not as i do' on charity.

Let me know when democrats close the significant and persistent charity donation gap on republicans, and all of this 'oh they hate the poor' bullshit might actually be relevant.

Let me know if there is any proof that personal charity can take the place of the civil infrastructure, civil institutions and government social programs that liberals have created and conservatives have actively tried to destroy. Lots of missionaries and charities in poor countries all over the world and most of those countries are still poor. Every developing former third world country is building safety net programs to help the poor because charity doesn't cut it. Never has.

Fuck Medicaid, Medicare, SS, WIC, and food stamps. Had the government not gotten in the way, charity would have taken care of everything. Damn liberals, why don't they believe charity will take care of old people's medical needs when their Ryancare vouchers run out?

//

62 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:41:13am

re: #59 negativ

re: #42 Aceofwhat?

re: #45 calochortus

I put a lot of the blame for this magical thinking at the feet of Horatio Alger, and I'm all but about 7% completely serious about that.

what part is magical thinking?

63 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:41:20am

The Magdalene asylums:

Lu Ann De Cunzo wrote in her book, Reform, Respite, Ritual: An Archaeology of Institutions; The Magdalene Society of Philadelphia, 1800-1850,[3] that the women in Philadelphia's asylum "sought a refuge and a respite from disease, the prison or almshouse, unhappy family situations, abusive men and dire economic circumstances." Though some may have taken refuge in the institutions, the asylums contained physical, psychological, sexual and emotional abuse. Many women felt they needed the support of the institutions to survive, since the sisters strove to make them feel the reasons for their refuge were their own fault.[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
64 darthstar  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:43:13am

re: #57 avanti

Heh...I found a $100 bill in my wallet yesterday...forgot all about it. (I like to keep a folded bill in my wallet for emergencies behind my credit cards...this one's been there for at least a year or two).

65 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:43:30am

re: #61 moderatelyradicalliberal

Let me know if there is any proof that personal charity can take the place of the civil infrastructure, civil institutions and government social programs that liberals have created and conservatives have actively tried to destroy. Lots of missionaries and charities in poor countries all over the world and most of those countries are still poor. Every developing former third world country is building safety net programs to help the poor because charity doesn't cut it. Never has.

Fuck Medicaid, Medicare, SS, WIC, and food stamps. Had the government not gotten in the way, charity would have taken care of everything. Damn liberals, why don't they believe charity will take care of old people's medical needs when their Ryancare vouchers run out?

//

nice snowman. did i say that civil infrastructure and institution should be abolished?

could have sworn that i said just above that a combination is required. but don't let phonics interrupt your crazy train there.

66 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:44:06am

re: #62 Aceofwhat?

If getting government out of our way leads to success, why doesn't Somalia produce many wealthy entrepreneurs?

67 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:45:29am

re: #66 calochortus

If getting government out of our way leads to success, why doesn't Somalia produce many wealthy entrepreneurs?

It has. They are called "pirates."

68 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:46:30am

re: #56 Aceofwhat?

and truly, we're better off with a combination of the two. i simply find the belief in a societal obligation without a sense of personal obligation to be as selfish as the inverse. because then it truly is "i think someone else should really take care of the poor". that's not exactly a compassionate attitude.

And what is compassionate about believing that a person who can't get by on personal charity deserves his lot in life? That if you can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps, then you're obviously not trying?

69 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:46:38am

re: #67 Alouette

It has. They are called "pirates."

I knew someone would bring that up... Actually, apparently most pirates are poor.

70 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:47:57am

re: #69 calochortus

I knew someone would bring that up... Actually, apparently most pirates are poor.

Well, they can't afford glass eyes or prosthetic limbs and have to make do with patches and pegs. Arr!

71 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:48:28am

I don't think anyone is arguing for anarchy like Somalia.

72 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:48:37am

re: #70 Alouette

What's the going rate for parrots?

73 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:49:05am

re: #66 calochortus

If getting government out of our way leads to success, why doesn't Somalia produce many wealthy entrepreneurs?

'getting government out of the way' is not synonymous with abolishing government, unless one is radically libertarian, anarchist, or...you. it means to eliminate unnecessary regulation (not all regulation is unnecessary).

but allow me to retort. if government is the pathway to success, why does communism fail in such spectacular and predictable fashion?

74 kirkspencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:49:49am

re: #28 Aceofwhat?

We're the party of 'do as i say, not as i do' on govt interference. Democrats are the party of 'do as i say, not as i do' on charity.

Let me know when democrats close the significant and persistent charity donation gap on republicans, and all of this 'oh they hate the poor' bullshit might actually be relevant.

What's your cite for this, this claim that Democrats contribute less to charity than Republicans? Please tell me you're not using the debunked Generosity Index.

75 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:50:06am

re: #73 Aceofwhat?

'getting government out of the way' is not synonymous with abolishing government, unless one is radically libertarian, anarchist, or...you. it means to eliminate unnecessary regulation (not all regulation is unnecessary).

but allow me to retort. if government is the pathway to success, why does communism fail in such spectacular and predictable fashion?

Perhaps because every communist system that has existed has been little better than an oligarchy draped in red cloth?

76 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:50:59am

re: #71 unwashed masses

I don't think anyone is arguing for anarchy like Somalia.

I would hope not, but it is the extreme of no government interference and serves as a starting place for "what government services do we need". It has been my observation that most people just want "the services that I want/need" and don't think about how things like infrastructure make commerce possible.

77 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:51:20am

re: #68 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And what is compassionate about believing that a person who can't get by on personal charity deserves his lot in life? That if you can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps, then you're obviously not trying?

i just said that 'believing anyone who can't get by on personal charity deserves their lot' is selfish. need me to requote it? here. i said " i simply find the belief in a societal obligation without a sense of personal obligation to be as selfish as the inverse."

it's not nice to pretend that someone didn't take a certain position because it makes your point more convenient.

78 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:52:16am

re: #65 Aceofwhat?

nice snowman. did i say that civil infrastructure and institution should be abolished?

could have sworn that i said just above that a combination is required. but don't let phonics interrupt your crazy train there.

I'm referring to your comparison to conservative charitable giving versus liberal support and creation of government programs and services that help the poor and disadvantaged. I would argue that those programs I listed have done far more for people than charitable giving ever has. I assumed you had some sort of point about bringing up the charity issue and I made a counter point. You brought it up.

There is nothing here about the importance of both in this statement.


Let me know when democrats close the significant and persistent charity donation gap on republicans, and all of this 'oh they hate the poor' bullshit might actually be relevant.

And I would still argue that as far as alleviating poverty goes, government programs have still been the most affective. You seem to be of the opinion that government has never done anything to make anybody rich, kinda like Dick Cheney not thinking government had ever done anything to make him rich even though his company got rich off of a lot of government contracts. So how many people have been made rich by charity?

79 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:52:45am

re: #68 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And what is compassionate about believing that a person who can't get by on personal charity deserves his lot in life? That if you can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps, then you're obviously not trying?

I'm pretty sure he's not saying that. Ace is just saying that we should expect that society gives everyone safety nets, and that we should also take it upon ourselves to provide what charity we can, rather than expect society to do all of it.

80 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:52:51am

re: #76 calochortus

Libertarians want enough government so that people are protected by others initiating force or fraud against them. That is the core function of government, to provide law enforcement, a court system to try suspected bad and settele contract disputes, and a prison system to put convicted bad guys away (no, it should not be privatized). Everything else government does it not a core function. Somalia is a failed state because it doesn't even do the basics right, in other words, it fails to fulfill it's core function.

Conclusion: Somalia is not a libertarian paradise, it is a failed state.

81 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:53:14am

re: #77 Aceofwhat?

i just said that 'believing anyone who can't get by on personal charity deserves their lot' is selfish. need me to requote it? here. i said " i simply find the belief in a societal obligation without a sense of personal obligation to be as selfish as the inverse."

it's not nice to pretend that someone didn't take a certain position because it makes your point more convenient.

Wasn't pretending anything, simply was suffering from a bit of miscomprehension. My apologies.

82 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:54:54am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

I watched that yesterday. It disturbed me for hours. She was beaten half to death because she was a he? Oh, gosh.

83 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:56:59am

re: #74 kirkspencer

What's your cite for this, this claim that Democrats contribute less to charity than Republicans? Please tell me you're not using the debunked Generosity Index.

no, that index is not required. poll after poll indicates the persistent gap, although why you'd be surprised is beyond me. one need simply read the personal opinions in this thread to understand that such a gap is practically inevitable given current attitudes on the subject.

84 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:57:02am

re: #73 Aceofwhat?

'getting government out of the way' is not synonymous with abolishing government, unless one is radically libertarian, anarchist, or...you. it means to eliminate unnecessary regulation (not all regulation is unnecessary).

but allow me to retort. if government is the pathway to success, why does communism fail in such spectacular and predictable fashion?

Communism fails spectacularly because of human nature and the basic desire to help those related to you more than anyone else. A more balanced government which provides both reasonable freedom and the protection of the less powerful is the pathway to success. How to achieve that balance is the fodder for endless debate.
Should the local garage be allowed to make more money by dumping their oil on the ground in the next county? It would enable lower prices and economic prosperity for that garage, but its hard on the folks in the next county. An awful lot of regulations that businesses hate fall into that general category.
And so forth.

85 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:58:06am

re: #73 Aceofwhat?

'getting government out of the way' is not synonymous with abolishing government, unless one is radically libertarian, anarchist, or...you. it means to eliminate unnecessary regulation (not all regulation is unnecessary).

but allow me to retort. if government is the pathway to success, why does communism fail in such spectacular and predictable fashion?

I think that may have to do with the fact that communism is a totalitarian form of government, which doesn't lend towards prosperity. Communism was not just an economic system and most communist countries like Cuba and North Korea have been cults of personality more than anything else. You've thrown up your own straw man. Nobody is arguing for communism. Can you name a purely capitalistic country with no elements of socialism that have proven successful?

86 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:58:09am

re: #75 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Perhaps because every communist system that has existed has been little better than an oligarchy draped in red cloth?

if only such a consistent trend could be extrapolated into some sort of truism about too much government. oh, wait...

87 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:58:37am

The party of fiscal responsibility:

Republicans Downplay Urgency Of Raising Debt Ceiling

Failing to raise the nation’s debt ceiling would be less damaging than allowing the deficit to continue to swell, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) said on Sunday, fueling a brewing battle over whether the government can take on more debt.

The Treasury is expected to hit its debt ceiling in May, at which point it will need authorization from Congress before it can take on additional loans. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner told members of Congress the debt limit needs to be raised by early June to prevent the government from defaulting on its loans.

Leading economists say that failing to raise the debt limit could be disastrous for the economy, with major implications on markets worldwide. But some Republicans downplayed the effects of allowing the government to hit its debt limit, arguing on Sunday talk shows that concern about the hitting the debt ceiling is overblown.

“The debt limit doesn’t really mean anything because we’ve always extended it,” Sen. Coburn said on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” “The Treasury secretary has the ability, even if this debt limit is not extended, to continue to pay interest on our loans. The idea that this is catastrophic is wrong -- what is catastrophic is to continue to spend money we don’t have.”

88 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:58:56am

re: #79 Renaissance_Man

I'm pretty sure he's not saying that. Ace is just saying that we should expect that society gives everyone safety nets, and that we should also take it upon ourselves to provide what charity we can, rather than expect society to do all of it.

Except I don't see that belief in the GOP, I see a party that is advocating that those who find themselves at the bottom rung on the ladder miracle their ass upwards. At the same time, they wish to cut out the societal safety nets, claiming they're a hindrance to that upward mobility, and believe that charity should somehow make up the difference.

89 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 11:59:32am

re: #84 calochortus

Communism fails spectacularly because of human nature and the basic desire to help those related to you more than anyone else. A more balanced government which provides both reasonable freedom and the protection of the less powerful is the pathway to success. How to achieve that balance is the fodder for endless debate.
Should the local garage be allowed to make more money by dumping their oil on the ground in the next county? It would enable lower prices and economic prosperity for that garage, but its hard on the folks in the next county. An awful lot of regulations that businesses hate fall into that general category.
And so forth.

I agree. Many regulations are necessary and beneficial to the common good. Many businesses (and people) will chase profits unethically and dangerously absent the proper regulations.

That does not mean there are no regulations that do far more economic harm than good. That's all.

90 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:00:26pm

re: #45 calochortus

Its cruel to suggest that those who need help affording food, or medicine need to pull up their socks and deal with it.

Seriously.

I think the angriest I ever got recently, aside from when Rick Perry started yammering about secession, was when Ron Paul basically said that I had no reason to go to grad school because I'm paying for it with federal student loans, and that no one deserves a handout for education or anything else.

91 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:00:49pm

re: #87 Lidane

The party of fiscal responsibility:

Republicans Downplay Urgency Of Raising Debt Ceiling

These people are nihilists. If they can't have America be the way they want. They will blow it up. They are like people who kill their children to punish their former spouses.

92 Sionainn  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:01:55pm

re: #82 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I watched that yesterday. It disturbed me for hours. She was beaten half to death because she was a he? Oh, gosh.

She said she had the operation, so she is really a she.

I simply have a difficult time comprehending how brutal people can be...and over something that is none of their business.

93 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:02:12pm

re: #86 Aceofwhat?

if only such a consistent trend could be extrapolated into some sort of truism about too much government. oh, wait...

Let's ask our friends to the north, who suffer under a far worse system of government control, just how horrible their lives are.

///

94 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:02:15pm

re: #89 Aceofwhat?


That does not mean there are no regulations that do far more economic harm than good. That's all.

I'm sure there are some. Government isn't perfect. There are always competing interests and competing desired outcomes. We wobble along as best we can.

95 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:02:42pm

re: #88 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Except I don't see that belief in the GOP, I see a party that is advocating that those who find themselves at the bottom rung on the ladder miracle their ass upwards. At the same time, they wish to cut out the societal safety nets, claiming they're a hindrance to that upward mobility, and believe that charity should somehow make up the difference.

No, that belief definitely doesn't exist in the GOP, which essentially no longer exists as a serious political party. However, that's not what Ace is advocating.

96 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:02:51pm

re: #90 Lidane

Seriously.

I think the angriest I ever got recently, aside from when Rick Perry started yammering about secession, was when Ron Paul basically said that I had no reason to go to grad school because I'm paying for it with federal student loans, and that no one deserves a handout for education or anything else.

Speaking of our governor. Have you prayed for rain yet, like he has asked? I've decided to pray that he will open up the Rainy Day Fund to prevent what happening to our schools. Maybe then God will send some rain.

97 avanti  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:02:52pm

re: #91 moderatelyradicalliberal

These people are nihilists. If they can't have America be the way they want. They will blow it up. They are like people who kill their children to punish their former spouses.

Once the bond market tanks, Wall Street will be all over the GOP, just hope it's not too late.

98 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:03:25pm

re: #85 moderatelyradicalliberal

I think that may have to do with the fact that communism is a totalitarian form of government, which doesn't lend towards prosperity. Communism was not just an economic system and most communist countries like Cuba and North Korea have been cults of personality more than anything else. You've thrown up your own straw man. Nobody is arguing for communism. Can you name a purely capitalistic country with no elements of socialism that have proven successful?

no, i can't name such a thing, because i would never advocate for such a thing.

i will say it again. imho, charity and the proper amount of government support are the best solution, together, to help provide opportunities for those who wish to better themselves economically.

i stand against anyone who says only one half of that recipe is required. Conservatives who think that charity alone will suffice are off-the-reservation deluded. Liberals who think that voting for government programs stands in for their obligation to make a personal contribution are hypocritical.

if that was unclear, please let me know.

99 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:03:28pm

re: #90 Lidane

Seriously.

I think the angriest I ever got recently, aside from when Rick Perry started yammering about secession, was when Ron Paul basically said that I had no reason to go to grad school because I'm paying for it with federal student loans, and that no one deserves a handout for education or anything else.

One wonders where they think doctors, among others, come from.

100 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:04:11pm

re: #81 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Wasn't pretending anything, simply was suffering from a bit of miscomprehension. My apologies.

forgiven! now back to the debate!

101 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:04:29pm

re: #95 Renaissance_Man

No, that belief definitely doesn't exist in the GOP, which essentially no longer exists as a serious political party. However, that's not what Ace is advocating.

That's nice to know. Now, since we've cleared that up, we can chunk this "charity gap" business into the circular file, where it belongs.

102 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:05:27pm

re: #96 moderatelyradicalliberal

Speaking of our governor. Have you prayed for rain yet, like he has asked? I've decided to pray that he will open up the Rainy Day Fund to prevent what happening to our schools. Maybe then God will send some rain.

I'm an atheist, so no. No prayers to the sky father for me. I'm spending today eating Cadbury creme eggs and doing homework for that grad school education I'm not worthy of because I can't pay for it on my own.

Opening the Rainy Day Fund would be nice, though.

103 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:06:24pm

re: #88 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Except I don't see that belief in the GOP, I see a party that is advocating that those who find themselves at the bottom rung on the ladder miracle their ass upwards. At the same time, they wish to cut out the societal safety nets, claiming they're a hindrance to that upward mobility, and believe that charity should somehow make up the difference.

yes, and i would argue that in most cases that attitude is better described as "pathetically ignorant" rather than "hating on the poor".

but i do not wish to appear to support such a belief. anyone who says that student loans are 'handouts' needs to give me their conservative carrying card so that i can urinate on it.

104 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:06:36pm

re: #99 calochortus

Paul himself is a doctor, he was in the Air Force though so maybe they paid for it.

105 Sionainn  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:06:50pm

re: #98 Aceofwhat?


i will say it again. imho, charity and the proper amount of government support are the best solution, together, to help provide opportunities for those who wish to better themselves economically.

Jumping in late...but....isn't that what we currently have? And if so, what's the argument about?

106 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:07:05pm

re: #104 unwashed masses

Paul himself is a doctor, he was in the Air Force though so maybe they paid for it.

In other words, he got a government handout for his education.

107 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:07:09pm

re: #98 Aceofwhat?

no, i can't name such a thing, because i would never advocate for such a thing.

i will say it again. imho, charity and the proper amount of government support are the best solution, together, to help provide opportunities for those who wish to better themselves economically.

i stand against anyone who says only one half of that recipe is required. Conservatives who think that charity alone will suffice are off-the-reservation deluded. Liberals who think that voting for government programs stands in for their obligation to make a personal contribution are hypocritical.

if that was unclear, please let me know.

Clear. But I would simply add that not all charity can bee measured by giving money. I don't have much money to give, but I do give about 20 hours a week to two health clinics for the poor. I'm not sure where you got your numbers from, but if your source is only counting money as a measure of charity, my charity doesn't count and neither does the charity of many of the people I know.

108 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:08:03pm

re: #101 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

That's nice to know. Now, since we've cleared that up, we can chunk this "charity gap" business into the circular file, where it belongs.

i only trotted it out to make the point that if republicans actually hated the poor in significant numbers, there wouldn't be such a gap. many recent republican ideas have been headdesk-quality dumb...but dumb is not malice.

[insert spaceballs quote here]

109 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:08:13pm

re: #99 calochortus

One wonders where they think doctors, among others, come from.

I'm more curious as to how many Republicans in Congress have relied upon government assistance in one form or another. I know Paul Ryan used his father's Social Security payments to get through college, so obviously Ron Paul needs to have a few words with him.

110 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:08:18pm

re: #106 Lidane

In a free society, anyone can work and save money no matter how poor they are. 50 years ago this was entirely possible. You could just work hard and save money for college. There was no need to give free money to the poor for education. But now the government takes so much of your money that you can't afford college if you're poor and work hard. Now you have to rely on the government taking money from other hard workers and giving it to you, instead of just working hard yourself. And people are happy about this. Especially the ones that don't work hard. They don't want Ron Paul to help remove unfair redistribution of wealth. They basically don't want to be in charge of their lives. They want more things for free and bigger government, because it's too hard to earn things yourself now. With all this big government messing us up we need bigger government to help us get by. Right.

111 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:09:26pm

re: #110 unwashed masses

Oh dear. You're a libertarian, aren't you? That was pretty much a libertarian talking point from start to finish.

112 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:09:56pm

re: #109 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I'm more curious as to how many Republicans in Congress have relied upon government assistance in one form or another. I know Paul Ryan used his father's Social Security payments to get through college, so obviously Ron Paul needs to have a few words with him.

Michele Bachmann has received 250k in farm subsidies. If anybody has eaten anything grown by Michele Bachmann I will eat my shoe.

113 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:10:08pm

re: #108 Aceofwhat?

i only trotted it out to make the point that if republicans actually hated the poor in significant numbers, there wouldn't be such a gap. many recent republican ideas have been headdesk-quality dumb...but dumb is not malice.

[insert spaceballs quote here]

And I agree. I'm glad we could work that out.

114 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:10:34pm

re: #111 Lidane

Oh dear. You're a libertarian, aren't you? That was pretty much a libertarian talking point from start to finish.

So it seems. Better type slower.

115 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:10:52pm

re: #110 unwashed masses

In a free society, anyone can work and save money no matter how poor they are.


I'm going to guess you don't have the experience of being poor yourself.

116 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:11:20pm

re: #55 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yep. The GI Bill has educated the thousands of doctors, engineers, and scientists that have pushed this country to become a superpower, as well as helped create the middle class that drove so much of our economic might through the 20th century.

When I was a wee lad in the late 70s and early 80s, even as the Cold War was sputtering to a halt, there was government emphasis on the importance of science, math, and engineering. Even in the little fartwhistle town I lived in at the time -- where football was the dominant religion -- it was endlessly stressed that to be a scientist working for the government by way of NASA, the DOE, the USDA, or even NOAA was just about the most rockin' awesome thing you could ever hope to do. Even learning the ability to assemble intricate, delicate devices was assigned a certain scientific prestige.

I remember seeing numerous presentations in the school auditorium where some guy from NASA would come and talk about cool stuff like the space shuttle, and the difficulties of taking a dump in zero G. The many "here's the science-fiction lifestyle we might have in the year 2000 (flying cars! robots! a computer system that connects everyone to everything instantly, all the time!), but only if you kids study science" lectures.

I don't really know exactly when or why all that changed. It seems like now the only thing that's valued at all is how much profit you can generate. We've created conditions under which a very small number of people become indescribably wealthy while the country as a whole stagnates, and probably declines in fact. We don't manufacture anything that the rest of the world buys, and we're content with cheap shit shoddily made with what amounts to (or in some cases, actually is) slave labor in China, India, Vietnam, etc.

Oh, never mind. I had a point, but I have no idea what it was. I'm probably all wrong anyway. The important thing is to make sure that Kanye West's taxes don't go up by 3%. Imagine how tragic that would be.

117 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:11:59pm

re: #111 Lidane

Oh dear. You're a libertarian, aren't you? That was pretty much a libertarian talking point from start to finish.

Not just any kind of libertarian, but apparently a Paulian. This should be good for a laugh.

118 William of Orange  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:12:11pm

And another deathblow for the middle class shop keepers.


Thank you.....

119 Iwouldprefernotto  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:12:17pm

re: #112 moderatelyradicalliberal

Michele Bachmann has received 250k in farm subsidies. If anybody has eaten anything grown by Michele Bachmann I will eat my shoe.

You are out of luck, she owns a shoe farm. Bumper crop this year.

120 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:12:56pm

re: #107 moderatelyradicalliberal

Clear. But I would simply add that not all charity can bee measured by giving money. I don't have much money to give, but I do give about 20 hours a week to two health clinics for the poor. I'm not sure where you got your numbers from, but if your source is only counting money as a measure of charity, my charity doesn't count and neither does the charity of many of the people I know.

Time donations also count, IMHO, it's even more personal and helpful than money donations...getting personally involved is a community-building activity.

But AFAIK, time donations follow the same trend. I'll look it up for you here - give me a few minutes.

Also, see: Obama, Barack and Biden, Joe...until recently in the public spotlight, their charitable donations aren't exactly the sort of thing you'd write home about. Seems like wealthy people ought to be doing more with their excess if you ask me.

121 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:13:37pm

re: #105 Sionainn

Jumping in late...but...isn't that what we currently have? And if so, what's the argument about?

see #98

122 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:14:29pm

re: #106 Lidane

In other words, he got a government handout for his education.

Pretty much. Oh wait, I'm sure he was worthy so he earned it.

123 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:15:06pm

re: #110 unwashed masses

In a free society, anyone can work and save money no matter how poor they are. 50 years ago this was entirely possible. You could just work hard and save money for college. There was no need to give free money to the poor for education. But now the government takes so much of your money that you can't afford college if you're poor and work hard. Now you have to rely on the government taking money from other hard workers and giving it to you, instead of just working hard yourself. And people are happy about this. Especially the ones that don't work hard. They don't want Ron Paul to help remove unfair redistribution of wealth. They basically don't want to be in charge of their lives. They want more things for free and bigger government, because it's too hard to earn things yourself now. With all this big government messing us up we need bigger government to help us get by. Right.

ask a woman or a black man 50 years ago how possible this was. let us know when you get the answer we already know. we'll have a festivus or something.

124 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:15:51pm

re: #110 unwashed masses

In a free society, anyone can work and save money no matter how poor they are. 50 years ago this was entirely possible. You could just work hard and save money for college. There was no need to give free money to the poor for education. But now the government takes so much of your money that you can't afford college if you're poor and work hard. Now you have to rely on the government taking money from other hard workers and giving it to you, instead of just working hard yourself. And people are happy about this. Especially the ones that don't work hard. They don't want Ron Paul to help remove unfair redistribution of wealth. They basically don't want to be in charge of their lives. They want more things for free and bigger government, because it's too hard to earn things yourself now. With all this big government messing us up we need bigger government to help us get by. Right.

My father went to college about 40 years ago for approximately 6 times less what it would cost him today. I would imagine that has something to do with how hard it is to save for college. But don't let that get in the way of your "thinking".

125 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:15:59pm

re: #117 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Not just any kind of libertarian, but apparently a Paulian. This should be good for a laugh.

Heh. I'm used to those. There are plenty of Paulian idiots here in Austin. They slavishly follow both him and Alex Jones. It's always fun for a laugh.

126 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:16:31pm

re: #62 Aceofwhat?

what part is magical thinking?

The American as a Rugged Individual, who starts with nothing and will inevitably become fabulously wealthy in the Land of Opportunity, so long as he Works Really Hard.

Go ahead and try to start your own oil company or airline with that $1.98 in your pocket. Get back to me when you're living The American Dream.

127 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:17:43pm

re: #110 unwashed masses

Please define "free society". The US? Nigeria? The UK? Russia? Serious question, what are the parameters?

128 kirkspencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:19:30pm

re: #83 Aceofwhat?

no, that index is not required. poll after poll indicates the persistent gap, although why you'd be surprised is beyond me. one need simply read the personal opinions in this thread to understand that such a gap is practically inevitable given current attitudes on the subject.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for some of these polls. The ones I've seen have been badly loaded, though most weren't as bad as the generosity index.

129 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:19:33pm

re: #124 moderatelyradicalliberal

My father went to college about 40 years ago for approximately 6 times less what it would cost him today. I would imagine that has something to do with how hard it is to save for college. But don't let that get in the way of your "thinking".

My mother's entire college education in the 1950's was paid for with $1500 from her parents, some small scholarships, and the fact that she lived in the co-op dorms, where students cooked their own communal meals and cleaned their own building.

Meanwhile, I'm paying about $12k a semester for grad school, plus all my bills-- rent, utilities, food, transportation, phone, etc. Without my federal loans, I wouldn't be able to afford any of it.

130 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:19:55pm

re: #126 negativ

And while we're at it, lets see how many farm workers, who I think we all agree, work really hard, make it big in this land of opportunity. Many of the people who work the hardest have the least available time to "better" themselves and move up.

131 albusteve  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:20:41pm

re: #120 Aceofwhat?

Time donations also count, IMHO, it's even more personal and helpful than money donations...getting personally involved is a community-building activity.

But AFAIK, time donations follow the same trend. I'll look it up for you here - give me a few minutes.

Also, see: Obama, Barack and Biden, Joe...until recently in the public spotlight, their charitable donations aren't exactly the sort of thing you'd write home about. Seems like wealthy people ought to be doing more with their excess if you ask me.

I donate my time because it's all I've got....before I lost my leg in Aug....my latest fun thing is a huge dental fair put on at our convention center....an enormous undertaking....hundreds and hundreds of vols..the docs perform surgery, extractions, posts, bridges and complete sets of teeth...all in two days....poor folks from all over the south west came and camped in the vast lots around the hall....there was snacks for the patients, three meals a day for the vols...an unbelievable operation....all the equipment brought in a set up, teeth cleaned, cavities filed, x rays, the whole enchillada....the reward for me being part of that is priceless....so find a gig and chip in

132 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:21:41pm

re: #110 unwashed masses

Are you also a fan of Alex Jones, since I'm sure you know Ron Paul is regularly featured on his show?

And Ron Paul's racist newsletters -- they don't bother you? Or his associations with extreme right wing groups like the Robert Taft Club? Or his opposition to abortion rights? His creationism? His life-long association with the John Birch Society?

Libertarianism is such a remarkably flexible term these days. Pretty much any kook can claim to be one.

133 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:21:58pm

Happy Easter everybody! Dinner calls.

134 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:24:27pm

re: #126 negativ

The American as a Rugged Individual, who starts with nothing and will inevitably become fabulously wealthy in the Land of Opportunity, so long as he Works Really Hard.

Go ahead and try to start your own oil company or airline with that $1.98 in your pocket. Get back to me when you're living The American Dream.

It sure as hell isn't inevitable. But the american dream isn't about starting with nothing and ending up as Bill Gates. The american dream is about starting with nothing and ending with (a) something a lot more significant than what you started with and (b) something for your children to build on.

My parents started with their HS diplomas (they got married at 19) and if they had more than 1.98, it wasn't much more. They carved out a great life for themselves and for us.

So...yeah. I have very intimate experience with what is possible in this country if you roll up your sleeves and get to work.

135 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:25:24pm

There's a not-great-but-okay documentary that probably everyone here could enjoy:

BEER WARS

It covers the struggles of micro-brewers (many of whom you probably know if you're a beer aficionado) trying to get their product to market, and the amazing obstacles put in their path by the gigantic brewers and the politicians they own.

Trailer:

136 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:25:40pm

re: #131 albusteve

I donate my time because it's all I've got...before I lost my leg in Aug...my latest fun thing is a huge dental fair put on at our convention center...an enormous undertaking...hundreds and hundreds of vols..the docs perform surgery, extractions, posts, bridges and complete sets of teeth...all in two days...poor folks from all over the south west came and camped in the vast lots around the hall...there was snacks for the patients, three meals a day for the vols...an unbelievable operation...all the equipment brought in a set up, teeth cleaned, cavities filed, x rays, the whole enchillada...the reward for me being part of that is priceless...so find a gig and chip in

exactly. we diminish this sort of activity at great risk to our society. go get 'em, Steve-

137 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:26:18pm

re: #135 negativ

There's a not-great-but-okay documentary that probably everyone here could enjoy:

BEER WARS

It covers the struggles of micro-brewers (many of whom you probably know if you're a beer aficionado) trying to get their product to market, and the amazing obstacles put in their path by the gigantic brewers and the politicians they own.

Trailer:

[Video]

careful...you almost said that government could be in the way...

138 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:28:19pm

BIAB, gotta do some quick shopping for Easter dinner.

139 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:28:30pm

It appears that after that after Qaddafi's forces retreated that they decided to go scorched earth and try to destroy Misrata. They are launching Scuds at the city as well speak, along with other artillery. Kuwait is now giving the rebels $180 million.

We need to step up air strikes again. Qaddafi is willing to destroy a city, and needs to be stopped.

140 albusteve  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:28:36pm

re: #136 Aceofwhat?

exactly. we diminish this sort of activity at great risk to our society. go get 'em, Steve-

I'll be ready...next year I'm dressing like a clown to entertain the kids with balloons, juggling, hand puppets etc...and hand out trinkets and fun stuff

141 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:30:43pm

re: #132 Charles

Can't let perfect get in the way of good enough. He himself is anti-abortion given that he's an ob-gyn that's understandable. Why would he favor reducing his customers? Actually I think he said he'd leave it to the states or something.

College costs are the last great bubble to burst, and experts in Voltaire and Chaucer will realize that they're not really worth $85,000, and they can be fired, after all.

But we'll pay the football coach $5M.

Rah Rah Rah

142 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:31:27pm

BBL

143 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:32:28pm

re: #112 moderatelyradicalliberal

Michele Bachmann has received 250k in farm subsidies. If anybody has eaten anything grown by Michele Bachmann I will eat my shoe.

She gets paid NOT to grow stuff. Don't you know how the farm system works?

145 albusteve  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:33:46pm

re: #143 Alouette

She gets paid NOT to grow stuff. Don't you know how the farm system works?

we need a hemp industry in this country

146 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:34:26pm

re: #144 Lidane

Rick Santorum: I Would ‘Absolutely’ Let The Country Default Over Defunding The Health Care Law

My, he has worked himself up into a froth over this issue.

147 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:34:43pm

Crazy Paulian not bothered by racism and nutty conspricay theories.
/Shocka!

148 sagehen  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:34:52pm

re: #120 Aceofwhat?

Seems like wealthy people ought to be doing more with their excess if you ask me.

Like Bill Gates, who's giving away 99.8% of his wealth? Or Warren Buffet, the cheapshit piker, who's only giving away 85%? Or Michael Bloomberg, who gives away 10% of his net worth every year, and is now in his 10th year of giving full-time free work (and excellent work it is) to the public good? Or the dozen other billionaires, lefties all, who they've persuaded to give away at least half?

149 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:35:15pm

re: #141 unwashed masses

Can't let perfect get in the way of good enough.

Oh. So a little racism and John Birch Society and Alex Jones is OK?

How much would it take not to be OK?

150 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:37:23pm

re: #144 Lidane

Holy Sweet God is he crazy. To think this is the Mainstream of one party.

The Pro-Qaddafites at Al-Jazeera are a bunch of sick pieces of crap. They openly want Misrata flattened and the rebels massacred, and callings them rats, or worse. One outright sympathizes with Al-Qaeda.

151 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:37:47pm

re: #141 unwashed masses

Can't let perfect get in the way of good enough. He himself is anti-abortion given that he's an ob-gyn that's understandable. Why would he favor reducing his customers? Actually I think he said he'd leave it to the states or something.

So he's for liberty only insofar as it benefits himself. It's the same old story.

152 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:37:49pm

re: #146 publicityStunted

He would know about froth.

153 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:37:52pm

re: #146 publicityStunted

My, he has worked himself up into a froth over this issue.

I know. Ick. Someone really needs to get some wetnaps and clean that up. =P

154 sagehen  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:37:59pm

re: #126 negativ

The American as a Rugged Individual, who starts with nothing and will inevitably become fabulously wealthy in the Land of Opportunity, so long as he Works Really Hard.

Go ahead and try to start your own oil company or airline with that $1.98 in your pocket. Get back to me when you're living The American Dream.

Like those self-sufficient pioneers of yore, who built the west with nothing but their bootstraps. On the free land the government gave them, after the United States military cleared our the previous inhabitants.

155 albusteve  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:40:14pm

re: #154 sagehen

Like those self-sufficient pioneers of yore, who built the west with nothing but their bootstraps. On the free land the government gave them, after the United States military cleared our the previous inhabitants.

the feds had to finance the railroads and they did it with land....that part worked out rather well for everybody, but especially the train barons....it had to come from somewhere

156 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:41:15pm

“I never had anything new,” Caswell says. “I got all the hand-me-downs. And my dad, he did a lot of shopping at the Salvation Army, and his comment was — and quite frankly it’s true — once you’re out of the store and you walk down the street, nobody knows where you bought your clothes.”

Because my dad was killed in WWII, I was raised in a Catholic, military, reform school. That didn't make me a conservative Republican.

Our clean clothes were issued to us weekly from a common stock. That didn't make me a conservative Republican. (Maybe because our shoes were considered our 'own'.)

Did five years doing medieval thinking in a Franciscan seminary. They didn't make me a conservative or neo-feudal Repblican.

After i got out of the draft army and got married, I went to college with the GI bill and a 3-11 shift job four 4 years on an assembly line. Didn't make me a conservative Republican.

Worked for 30 years for the Army as one of those 'civilian advisors'. Still not a c/R.

Lived in Lower Alabama for 20 of those years--Still a liberal Democrat.

Guess I just don't carry the gene for 'asshole'.

157 MarkAM  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:41:41pm

Sorry to jump in on this so late, but "pre" or "post"-op is really of no consequence. Many people, and especially many FTMs, don't do the surgery.

re: #24 Aceofwhat?

i really don't want to watch the video...is she a true post-op transgender or is it a man who aspires to become anatomically female?

re: #31 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure. HuffPoo just says "Transgendered".

158 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:42:17pm

re: #128 kirkspencer

I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for some of these polls. The ones I've seen have been badly loaded, though most weren't as bad as the generosity index.

Let's start with Google's study. Did you read that one?

159 MarkAM  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:42:31pm

Oh, and this guy from Nevada. . .sounds like a character out of Dickens.

160 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:43:04pm

The idea that a year of college should cost as much as a median household's total income is insane.

College costs are the only thing I can think of that inflate at twice the rate that our dollar has over the long term. It doesn't seem like it can go on forever.


----------

The collectivist mindset is at the heart of racism.

Government as an institution is particularly ill-suited to combat bigotry. Bigotry at its essence is a problem of the heart, and we cannot change people's hearts by passing more laws and regulations.

It is the federal government that most divides us by race, class, religion, and gender. Through its taxes, restrictive regulations, corporate subsidies, racial set-asides, and welfare programs, government plays far too large a role in determining who succeeds and who fails. Government "benevolence" crowds out genuine goodwill by institutionalizing group thinking, thus making each group suspicious that others are receiving more of the government loot. This leads to resentment and hostility among us.

Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than as individuals. Racists believe that all individuals who share superficial physical characteristics are alike: as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism.

The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence - not skin color, gender, or ethnicity.

In a free society, every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality. This leads to a sense of individual responsibility and personal pride, making skin color irrelevant. Racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and begin thinking in terms of individual liberty.
Ron Paul

161 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:43:43pm

re: #148 sagehen

Like Bill Gates, who's giving away 99.8% of his wealth? Or Warren Buffet, the cheapshit piker, who's only giving away 85%? Or Michael Bloomberg, who gives away 10% of his net worth every year, and is now in his 10th year of giving full-time free work (and excellent work it is) to the public good? Or the dozen other billionaires, lefties all, who they've persuaded to give away at least half?

why, yes, those are all excellent examples for our current vice-president. thanks!

162 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:44:16pm

It's copy pasta time!

163 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:45:26pm

re: #160 unwashed masses

If I wanted to read anything by Ron Paul, I'd go look for it myself. Thanks, but no.

164 MarkAM  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:45:44pm

Oops. I mean Michigan. . .I'm mixing up threads.

165 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:45:58pm

re: #160 unwashed masses

Quit being such an anti-science moron. Altruism exists in the natural world for a reason.

166 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:46:20pm

LOL, he did not write the content of the letters but he did write that.

167 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:46:30pm

re: #134 Aceofwhat?

My parents started with their HS diplomas (they got married at 19) and if they had more than 1.98, it wasn't much more. They carved out a great life for themselves and for us.

That's great, and I'm glad it worked out well for them. I'm willing to bet that in those days, it was possible to:
1) get by, however meagerly, on wages one could expect to earn with a HS diploma
2) get a better-paying job without having one's credit score factored into the hiring decision

So...yeah. I have very intimate experience with what is possible in this country if you roll up your sleeves and get to work.

My dad died when I was 17, and when I turned 18, my mother made me jointly responsible for all the family whatsitz (i.e., 35 years worth of debts) and then left the state with a hardcore alcoholic half her age. All the sleeve-rolling in the universe couldn't (and didn't) fix the shit-storm that caused. I, too, have very intimate experience with what is possible in this country if you roll up your sleeves and get to work.

168 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:46:42pm

re: #157 MarkAM

Sorry to jump in on this so late, but "pre" or "post"-op is really of no consequence. Many people, and especially many FTMs, don't do the surgery.

re: #31 Killgore Trout

at the risk of showing insensitivity to the poor woman who was assaulted (and i'll abandon the discussion immediately if anyone finds it insensitive), i gently disagree. anatomical identity is a perfectly straightforward, logical, and nondiscriminatory way to sort out who goes into which bathroom.

169 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:47:36pm

re: #165 prononymous

Quit being such an anti-science moron. Altruism exists in the natural world for a reason.

But...but...Ayn Rand Ludwig von Mises Ron Paul says that altruism is an evil, collectivist plot! Helping out your fellow man? Inconceivable!

170 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:47:54pm

re: #160 unwashed masses

Ron Paul will be welcome in my republican party at exactly the same time i make Karl Marx an honorary republican.

171 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:47:57pm

re: #160 unwashed masses

The idea that a year of college should cost as much as a median household's total income is insane.

College costs are the only thing I can think of that inflate at twice the rate that our dollar has over the long term. It doesn't seem like it can go on forever.

---

The collectivist mindset is at the heart of racism.

Government as an institution is particularly ill-suited to combat bigotry. Bigotry at its essence is a problem of the heart, and we cannot change people's hearts by passing more laws and regulations.

It is the federal government that most divides us by race, class, religion, and gender. Through its taxes, restrictive regulations, corporate subsidies, racial set-asides, and welfare programs, government plays far too large a role in determining who succeeds and who fails. Government "benevolence" crowds out genuine goodwill by institutionalizing group thinking, thus making each group suspicious that others are receiving more of the government loot. This leads to resentment and hostility among us.

Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than as individuals. Racists believe that all individuals who share superficial physical characteristics are alike: as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism.

The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence - not skin color, gender, or ethnicity.

In a free society, every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality. This leads to a sense of individual responsibility and personal pride, making skin color irrelevant. Racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and begin thinking in terms of individual liberty.
Ron Paul

Racism will exist as long as people are free to practice it without fear of reprisals from those in power.

172 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:48:06pm

The official Ron Paul newsletter, June 1992, right after the LA riots:

"Order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks."

Another newsletter quote:

"The criminals who terrorize our cities -- in riots and on every non-riot day -- are not exclusively young black males, but they largely are. As children, they are trained to hate whites, to believe that white oppression is responsible for all black ills, to 'fight the power,' to steal and loot as much money from the white enemy as possible."

Right. But it's "collectivism" that causes racism. Said the racist.

173 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:48:07pm

re: #165 prononymous

How am I anti-science? I think the argument is altruism shouldn't be mandatory.

174 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:48:22pm

re: #160 unwashed masses

Racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and begin thinking in terms of individual liberty.


So did big government force Ron Paul to spend a decade publishing racist newsletter?
Ron Paul '90s newsletters rant against blacks, gays

175 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:49:42pm

re: #160 unwashed masses

Ron Paul, as an individual, is responsible for his own bigoted statements.
He doesn't get to blame that on government.

176 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:49:44pm

re: #166 unwashed masses

Why was Ron Paul publishing someone else's racist writings?

177 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:49:47pm

re: #167 negativ

That's great, and I'm glad it worked out well for them. I'm willing to bet that in those days, it was possible to:
1) get by, however meagerly, on wages one could expect to earn with a HS diploma
2) get a better-paying job without having one's credit score factored into the hiring decision

My dad died when I was 17, and when I turned 18, my mother made me jointly responsible for all the family whatsitz (i.e., 35 years worth of debts) and then left the state with a hardcore alcoholic half her age. All the sleeve-rolling in the universe couldn't (and didn't) fix the shit-storm that caused. I, too, have very intimate experience with what is possible in this country if you roll up your sleeves and get to work.

i am sorry that your experience was different, and you are a perfect example of why safety nets should continue to exist. because some people just need to get to work, and other people just need some help.

178 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:51:03pm

re: #173 unwashed masses

How am I anti-science? I think the argument is altruism shouldn't be mandatory.

Watching this video might be a start to answering your question:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

179 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:52:16pm

This is turning into an interesting Sunday...

180 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:52:33pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Why was Ron Paul publishing someone else's racist writings?

FREEDOM! INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY! BOOTSTRAPS!

///

181 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:52:38pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Why was Ron Paul publishing someone else's racist writings?

it's a shame...if we were more altruistic, we might not be bringing that up at the Paulian's expense/

182 Fortitudine  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:52:40pm

Mr. Caswell should check with my sister and her husband. They live in Michigan and are foster parents, and they already buy clothes for those kids at the Salvation Army and Goodwill because the amount of money they get from the state won't allow them to shop anywhere else.

183 albusteve  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:52:45pm

re: #179 researchok

This is turning into an interesting Sunday...

depressing subject

184 kirkspencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:56:22pm

re: #158 Aceofwhat?

Let's start with Google's study. Did you read that one?

The first ten links all wind up sourcing to the Generosity Index, either directly or by way of Arthur Brooks' "Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth about Compassionate Conservatism."

So again I'm asking: can you give me a source that doesn't use the easily debunked Generosity Index that shows Republicans give more than Democrats?

185 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:56:31pm

re: #180 Lidane

FREEDOM! INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY! BOOTSTRAPS!

///

see, that's one of the things i dislike so much about Paulians...i say to a liberal "no, that's a straw man argument" and then i turn around and i see that some Paulian has taken the straw man mold, cast it in gooold, and then put it on a pedestal.

no wonder everyone reacts with dismay when i say things like 'charitable givers'...frickin' Paulians...

186 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:56:41pm

Has our Paulian given up so easily?

187 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:56:56pm

re: #184 kirkspencer

The first ten links all wind up sourcing to the Generosity Index, either directly or by way of Arthur Brooks' "Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth about Compassionate Conservatism."

So again I'm asking: can you give me a source that doesn't use the easily debunked Generosity Index that shows Republicans give more than Democrats?

the google study was completely separate from the generosity index thingy.

188 MarkAM  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:57:11pm

It's not nearly so cut-and-dried (hormones, mastectomies, breast implants, just for starters,) and there's no reason why it should be, outside of protecting certain sensibilities. . .not unlike the way most people thought about gay couples holding hands in public not long ago. Being transgendered is extremely tough, and it behooves intelligent people to try and see things from their perspective.

re: #168 Aceofwhat?

at the risk of showing insensitivity to the poor woman who was assaulted (and i'll abandon the discussion immediately if anyone finds it insensitive), i gently disagree. anatomical identity is a perfectly straightforward, logical, and nondiscriminatory way to sort out who goes into which bathroom.

189 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:57:48pm

re: #186 Killgore Trout

Has our Paulian given up so easily?

Or he's watching that vid, it's 19 minutes.

190 albusteve  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:58:11pm

re: #186 Killgore Trout

Has our Paulian given up so easily?

I hope he learned something

191 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:58:17pm

re: #186 Killgore Trout

Has our Paulian given up so easily?

He knows when to come in from the rain.

192 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 12:59:06pm

re: #185 Aceofwhat?

see, that's one of the things i dislike so much about Paulians...i say to a liberal "no, that's a straw man argument" and then i turn around and i see that some Paulian has taken the straw man mold, cast it in gooold, and then put it on a pedestal.

Not only that, but they spend their days reading the gospel Atlas Shrugged to that straw man mold and throwing non-hybrid seeds at it in worship, hoping that if they believe hard enough, they'll get rich too.

193 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:00:11pm

Ron Paul is not a racist. When this first came out about I kinda laughed about it and thought to myself "I guess they're trying to help him in south carolina" no seriously. It's all BS but we knew that from the beginning.

NAACP President: Ron Paul Is Not A Racist

[Link: www.ronpaulforums.com...]

194 AK-47%  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:00:27pm

My dad died when I was seven, and United States Steel, where he haed worked for 30 years, told my mother that she was ineligible for a widow's pension because my dad died before he had retired.

Had it not been for Social Security, we would have been homeless and penniless. As it was, I git by on hand-me-down and bargain-basement clothing, did not own my first pair of Levi's until I got a paper route to pay for them.

Some decades later my mom received a settlement from a class-action suit from US Steel, but it was only a patch on what was owed to us and did not replace the money we needed in 1968.

And ever since then I have been skeptical of the ability or willingess of the Captains of Industry to look out for anything other than their short-term interests.

195 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:00:36pm

re: #190 albusteve

I hope he learned something

Heh. Paulians don't learn, some of them grow up but it's not a guarantee.

196 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:01:13pm

OK. Errands need to happen. BBL.

197 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:01:41pm

re: #160 unwashed masses

ts;dr

198 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:01:46pm

re: #193 unwashed masses

And he backs up the claim that Ron Paul is not a racist with a link to ... the Ron Paul website, and an Alex Jones article.

Oh brother.

199 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:01:51pm

re: #184 kirkspencer

What is this Generosity Index? I've not heard of it.

200 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:01:54pm

re: #137 Aceofwhat?

careful...you almost said that government could be in the way...

Of course government can be "in the way." Quite obnoxiously so when it's co-opted by self-serving private interests that contribute funds to a politician's campaign warchest sufficient to make him or her that interest's prison bitch. My own state's Joe Barton obsequiously apologizing to the CEO of BP for the tragic injustice of having to answer [frequently stupid] congressional questions regarding the Deepwater Horizon incident. Poor Tony Hayward, he just wanted to get his life back. Presumably, the 11 dead crewmen on the rig might also prefer to have their lives back as well, but Mr Barton doesn't receive millions of dollars from them, so no apology will be forthcoming.

I'm not a big fan of "government". I think the US government, uniquely, has the ability to do Really Good Stuff. The Apollo Program for example. But "Government" goes wrong lots and lots. It goes especially wrong when it acts as the enforcement arm of business interests who are loyal only to whatever country provides them with the greatest profit potential, side-effects be damned.

201 albusteve  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:02:10pm

re: #195 Killgore Trout

Heh. Paulians don't learn, some of them grow up but it's not a guarantee.

it's my Easter Generosity

202 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:02:37pm

re: #193 unwashed masses

Ah, we were worried we lost you. Nice retort with a link to 9-11 truther alex jones. So if he's not racist then why did he spend a decade publishing a racist newsletter?

203 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:03:12pm

re: #184 kirkspencer

The first ten links all wind up sourcing to the Generosity Index, either directly or by way of Arthur Brooks' "Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth about Compassionate Conservatism."

So again I'm asking: can you give me a source that doesn't use the easily debunked Generosity Index that shows Republicans give more than Democrats?

here you go. this data was far more robust and statistically significant than the generosity index stuff.

[Link: papers.ssrn.com...]

you're welcome...

204 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:03:13pm

He didn't write it. That's how slander works, they twist public opinion with the 6 degrees to Kevin Bacon theory.

205 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:03:44pm

I guess if Ron Paul and his friends and cultist followers say he's not a racist, we should just take them at their word and completely forget about the words that were printed in Ron Paul's official newsletter.

I posted two quotes. There are LOTS more like this. But hey, Paul says he's not a racist, so he can't be.

206 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:04:29pm

re: #193 unwashed masses

Ron Paul is not a racist. When this first came out about I kinda laughed about it and thought to myself "I guess they're trying to help him in south carolina" no seriously. It's all BS but we knew that from the beginning.

NAACP President: Ron Paul Is Not A Racist

[Link: www.ronpaulforums.com...]

Ron Paul is an anti-semite and negrophobic piece of racist trash. Wake up and stop defending the indefensible.

207 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:04:29pm

re: #189 prononymous

Or not. Learning is hard. lol.

208 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:04:39pm

re: #172 Charles

"The criminals who terrorize our cities -- in riots and on every non-riot day -- are not exclusively young black males, but they largely are"

Do the crime stats not back this up?

209 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:05:35pm

re: #160 unwashed masses

Go back to your stinking Gulch. Why are you using the government-sponsored Intertubes?

210 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:06:02pm

We haven't had a Paulian around here for so long, I'd kind of forgotten what they're like.

211 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:07:17pm

re: #204 unwashed masses

He didn't write it. That's how slander works, they twist public opinion with the 6 degrees to Kevin Bacon theory.

Yes he did write it. The details match Paul family details. It's his newsletter. He's never named another writer nor has this mystery writer come forward and claimed responsibility. Paul is responsible for the content of his publication. He wrote it, get over your pathetic denial. Your hero is a racist goon.

212 recusancy  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:08:05pm

re: #193 unwashed masses

Ron Paul is not a racist. When this first came out about I kinda laughed about it and thought to myself "I guess they're trying to help him in south carolina" no seriously. It's all BS but we knew that from the beginning.

NAACP President: Ron Paul Is Not A Racist

[Link: www.ronpaulforums.com...]

Linder is not the NAACP President. He's head of the Austin, TX branch. Congratulations. He found one black person who said he's not a racist.

213 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:08:10pm

re: #204 unwashed masses

He didn't write it. That's how slander works, they twist public opinion with the 6 degrees to Kevin Bacon theory.

He published it, he owns it.

214 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:09:38pm

re: #212 recusancy

Paulians are not known for their honesty.

215 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:10:01pm

re: #205 Charles

I guess if Ron Paul and his friends and cultist followers say he's not a racist, we should just take them at their word and completely forget about the words that were printed in Ron Paul's official newsletter.

I posted two quotes. There are LOTS more like this. But hey, Paul says he's not a racist, so he can't be.

David Duke doesn't believe he is a racist, either.

Yup, good enough for me.
//

216 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:10:15pm

re: #188 MarkAM

It's not nearly so cut-and-dried (hormones, mastectomies, breast implants, just for starters,) and there's no reason why it should be, outside of protecting certain sensibilities. . .not unlike the way most people thought about gay couples holding hands in public not long ago. Being transgendered is extremely tough, and it behooves intelligent people to try and see things from their perspective.

Sensitivity cuts both ways. I would and do expect that an anatomically male transgendered individual is sensitive enough to understand that rather than ask women in the women's bathroom to take it on faith that she is a true transgendered person at heart, it is more sensitive to use the restroom designated to their current anatomical condition.

In addition, i fail to see how it is less sensitive or insulting an individual to be assigned a bathroom based on their anatomical status rather than some more subjective criteria like an assessment of how completely they have pursued a transgender identity.

217 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:10:20pm

Yeah, one person that has known him 20 years.
I agree he should have been more careful about what goes out under his name.

re: #206 goddamnedfrank

That rwing rag, the New York Times apologizes for unverifiable assertions regarding Ron Paul, Ron Paul's aides and Bill White.

[Link: themedium.blogs.nytimes.com...]

218 AK-47%  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:10:45pm

Donald Trump also has a very good relationship with the blacks...

219 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:11:49pm

re: #213 jaunte

He published it, he owns it.

Whoa, hold on right there! Expecting personal responsibility? Now that's just a bridge too far.

220 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:12:38pm

re: #219 prononymous

Whoa, hold on right there! Expecting personal responsibility? Now that's just a bridge too far.

Paul claimed he had no idea what his newsletter was publishing.

For years.

221 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:14:03pm

re: #217 unwashed masses

Yeah, one person that has known him 20 years.

"I have black/jew/muslim/etc friends, therefore I can't be an anti-X"

Yeah, we have never heard that before.

222 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:14:09pm

"The quotations in The New Republic article are not mine and do not represent what I believe or have ever believed. I have never uttered such words and denounce such small-minded thoughts." Ron Paul

That's good enough for me.
All of the others are corporate whores.

223 researchok  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:14:48pm

re: #222 unwashed masses

"The quotations in The New Republic article are not mine and do not represent what I believe or have ever believed. I have never uttered such words and denounce such small-minded thoughts." Ron Paul

That's good enough for me.
All of the others are corporate whores.

Clearly, you have a thing for shovels.

224 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:15:23pm

re: #208 unwashed masses

no, they don't back up that racist claim. what the crime stats say is that family disorganization is as big of a predictor, or bigger, than income status (which is also a significant predictor).

now gee, i wonder why a minority population attempting to recover from centuries of slavery and inequality would be struggling to rebuild their family structure in addition to everything else? and is that a rhetorical question? was that?

225 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:16:01pm

re: #223 researchok

Clearly, you have a thing for shovels.

He has shovels for all occasions. For shoveling the bullshit onto his neighbor's yard, for digging deep holes, etc.

226 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:16:23pm

re: #222 unwashed masses

Keep digging. I hear the holes get easier to dig the deeper you get. LOL.

227 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:16:30pm

re: #220 researchok

Paul claimed he had no idea what his newsletter was publishing.

For years.

"My defense against your charge of racism is my counter-plea of idiocy."

228 MarkAM  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:16:33pm

"Pursued a transgendered identity"? Kind of like choosing to be gay. Sorry, but trans people have it incredibly hard, and your comment about "sensitivity" is pretty revealing. Get to know some, and you might understand. Or read some of the literature . .And again "anatomical condition" is not nearly as simple as you would have it.

re: #216 Aceofwhat?

Sensitivity cuts both ways. I would and do expect that an anatomically male transgendered individual is sensitive enough to understand that rather than ask women in the women's bathroom to take it on faith that she is a true transgendered person at heart, it is more sensitive to use the restroom designated to their current anatomical condition.

In addition, i fail to see how it is less sensitive or insulting an individual to be assigned a bathroom based on their anatomical status rather than some more subjective criteria like an assessment of how completely they have pursued a transgender identity.

229 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:17:09pm

re: #227 Decatur Deb

"My defense against your charge of racism is my counter-plea of idiocy."

Hehe.

230 kirkspencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:17:17pm

re: #187 Aceofwhat?

the google study was completely separate from the generosity index thingy.

Ah, I know what you're speaking of. And the answer is that it doesn't do what Brooks said it does.

It's the 2007 Google/Center on Philosophy at Indiana University study titled: Patterns of Household Charitable Giving by Income Group, 2005. Nowhere in the study is there an attempt to separate conservative and liberal donors. Instead it's solely by household income group, with the bottom tier being "less than $100,000." Link.

The CoP-IUIC also recently completed "Charitable Giving by Type of Community: Comparing Donation Patterns of Rural and Urban Donor" link Again, no differentiation is made between liberal and conservative. If you're Brooks you make an assumption that rurals are conservative, but if you look at the actual data you can see where that might be a bit mistaken. Even so, it doesn't prove what is claimed. The summation of the story is that rural residents give a greater proportion of their income but urban residents give a greater absolute portion. Not total but per household.

So, where's the study that specifically looks for CONSERVATIVES vs LIBERALS?

231 albusteve  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:17:42pm

re: #220 researchok

Paul claimed he had no idea what his newsletter was publishing.

For years.

seems sort of improbable considering Paul is the intellectual father of the TP...ignorance of the news letter contents merely doubles down the criticism

232 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:18:17pm

This issue has been acknowledged and denounced.

It's 10 year old drummed up political smear. That's all. Move on. It was old news 10 years ago. Some people would rather slander Ron Paul than fight for their voting process to be legitimate, and open.

233 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:18:33pm

So I leave for a bit, come back, and the Paulian has doubled-down on his stupidity. Imagine my surprise. /

234 albusteve  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:19:49pm

Y'ALL MOVE ON!

235 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:19:51pm

re: #227 Decatur Deb

This is just the kind of personal responsibility one can expect from Dr. Paul.

236 Winny Spencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:19:52pm

re: #232 unwashed masses

This issue has been acknowledged and denounced.

It's 10 year old drummed up political smear. That's all. Move on. It was old news 10 years ago. Some people would rather slander Ron Paul than fight for their voting process to be legitimate, and open.

Was 9/11 an inside job?

237 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:20:57pm

re: #232 unwashed masses

Sure, there are plenty of more recent crazy shit he has said if you want to dig some holes down that road.

238 recusancy  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:21:05pm

re: #232 unwashed masses

This issue has been acknowledged and denounced.

It's 10 year old drummed up political smear. That's all. Move on. It was old news 10 years ago. Some people would rather slander Ron Paul than fight for their voting process to be legitimate, and open.

Do you believe in the Bell Curve?

239 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:21:49pm

re: #228 MarkAM

"Pursued a transgendered identity"? Kind of like choosing to be gay. Sorry, but trans people have it incredibly hard, and your comment about "sensitivity" is pretty revealing. Get to know some, and you might understand. Or read some of the literature . .And again "anatomical condition" is not nearly as simple as you would have it.

No, not like choosing to be gay. Like trying to prove that a person is more than a cross-dresser, or worse, a perv. It is not offensive or discriminatory to designate restrooms by the tool which will be employed therein. It is far more offensive to either (a) interrogate someone before permitting them entrance to a restroom or (b) ask women to take it on faith that the anatomically male (in the only manner which is relevant to a restroom discussion, since you seem to be struggling with this concept) person entering behind them is 100% sincere in their intentions.

My comment about 'sensitivity' is revealing - what - that sensitivity isn't a river, that it needs to flow both ways? I agree. That does reveal something about me. I do my best not to withhold sensitivity from anyone.

240 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:22:21pm

re: #230 kirkspencer

did you not read the link i posted?

241 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:22:40pm

re: #226 wlewisiii

Keep digging. I hear the holes get easier to dig the deeper you get. LOL.

I'm personally less concerned with his racism than the fact that his political theories are unmitigated fantasy garbage, and yet somehow have become the cornerstone of the modern Republican Party.

242 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:23:21pm

re: #241 Renaissance_Man

Heh. Good point.

243 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:23:33pm

re: #233 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So I leave for a bit, come back, and the Paulian has doubled-down on his stupidity. Imagine my surprise. /

they also split their pair of 5's. it's just all kinds of bad moves around here...

244 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:24:17pm

re: #241 Renaissance_Man

I'm personally less concerned with his racism than the fact that his political theories are unmitigated fantasy garbage, and yet somehow have become the cornerstone of the modern Republican Party.

Oh I hear you. I especially despise the Paulian wet dreams about gold. The gold standard would destroy this nation.

245 albusteve  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:24:40pm

re: #243 Aceofwhat?

they also split their pair of 5's. it's just all kinds of bad moves around here...

we don't need no stinking face cards!

246 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:25:08pm

re: #244 wlewisiii

Oh I hear you. I especially despise the Paulian wet dreams about gold. The gold standard would destroy this nation.

Hey man, if America can't survive in our idealistic fantasy, then it's just proof of how badly the socialists have screwed everything up!

///

247 BongCrodny  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:25:17pm

re: #232 unwashed masses

This issue has been acknowledged and denounced.

It's 10 year old drummed up political smear. That's all. Move on. It was old news 10 years ago. Some people would rather slander Ron Paul than fight for their voting process to be legitimate, and open.


Stormfront loves them some Ron Paul -- and if some of the stories I've read have any merit, the feelings are at least partially recriprocated.

Would you also argue that Stormfront isn't racist?

248 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:25:42pm

re: #244 wlewisiii

Oh I hear you. I especially despise the Paulian wet dreams about gold. The gold standard would destroy this nation.

seriously. few things are more divorced from reality than the fantasy that life without a smart central bank was merry and fancy-free. bunch of maroons.

249 kirkspencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:25:51pm

re: #203 Aceofwhat?

here you go. this data was far more robust and statistically significant than the generosity index stuff.

[Link: papers.ssrn.com...]

you're welcome...

The paper relates the tendency of racism to the belief government should redistribute wealth.

Are you saying we can measure conservative/liberal by using a racism scale? Are you saying the belief government should redistribute wealth equates to actual charitable giving? If not, can you reference how this paper supports the claim that conservatives give more than liberals?

250 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:25:54pm

re: #232 unwashed masses

I still don't understand why he published a racist newsletter for 10 years if he's not racist.

251 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:25:54pm

re: #236 Winny Spencer

At least it isn't quite as stupid as birtherism.

252 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:27:03pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

I still don't understand why he published a racist newsletter for 10 years if he's not racist.

Hey man, that's in the past, don't you understand? It's old news! Now start talking about how Paul is the one true messiah and will take America to the promised land!

///

253 kirkspencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:27:29pm

re: #240 Aceofwhat?

did you not read the link i posted?

You posted while I was digging for the "actual google study". Which, it turns out, does not support your position. Neither, as near as I can tell, does your posted link.

254 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:28:59pm

Wait a second. If he didn't know about the newsletter and all that was in the past then why is he still friends with and actually promoting slavery apologists as recently as early this year?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

255 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:29:19pm

re: #249 kirkspencer

The paper relates the tendency of racism to the belief government should redistribute wealth.

Are you saying we can measure conservative/liberal by using a racism scale? Are you saying the belief government should redistribute wealth equates to actual charitable giving? If not, can you reference how this paper supports the claim that conservatives give more than liberals?

it also states unequivocally that those who oppose government redistribution were "much more likely to donate money to charities, religious organizations, and political candidates."

So for the sake of precision, i retract my statement that "conservatives give more to charity than liberals" and substitute the terms "those who oppose government redistribution" / "those who favor government redistribution" respectively.

It still makes my point, and perhaps even more effectively. For that i thank you. (not sarc)

256 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:29:31pm

re: #247 BongCrodny

Stormfront loves them some Ron Paul -- and if some of the stories I've read have any merit, the feelings are at least partially recriprocated.

Would you also argue that Stormfront isn't racist?

GAAAKK!! I agree with Stormfront--Rep Paul is a small national treasure. He can be relied upon to divert 1-3 percent of the vote in any national election. He should set up a commune with Nader.

257 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:29:59pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

I still don't understand why he published a racist newsletter for 10 years if he's not racist.

gold.

i mean, it's the answer to every question...right?

258 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:30:08pm

We are on a highway to hell in a porsche going faster than the speed limit and all we do is argue in the damn car. Can you compare this crap to the sins of our current government and the banking cartel? Are we gonna give a crap about these letters when we are paying ten bucks for a gallon of milk?

259 Winny Spencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:30:27pm

re: #251 unwashed masses

At least it isn't quite as stupid as birtherism.

A yes, then.

Nothing is less stupid than trutherism, nor more offensive.

260 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:30:49pm

Back in a minute.

Meanwhile, everyone meditate upon this wisdom.

261 Winny Spencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:31:38pm

re: #259 Winny Spencer

A yes, then.

Nothing is more stupid than trutherism, nor more offensive.

PIMF. Gah.

262 albusteve  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:32:13pm

re: #258 unwashed masses

We are on a highway to hell in a porsche going faster than the speed limit and all we do is argue in the damn car. Can you compare this crap to the sins of our current government and the banking cartel? Are we gonna give a crap about these letters when we are paying ten bucks for a gallon of milk?

when elected officials are stabbing my fellow citizens in the back, that disturbs me

263 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:32:22pm

re: #254 prononymous

Wait a second. If he didn't know about the newsletter and all that was in the past then why is he still friends with and actually promoting slavery apologists as recently as early this year?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Yes, Ron Paul still maintains the same associations.

264 Digital Display  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:32:55pm

re: #258 unwashed masses

We are on a highway to hell in a porsche going faster than the speed limit and all we do is argue in the damn car. Can you compare this crap to the sins of our current government and the banking cartel? Are we gonna give a crap about these letters when we are paying ten bucks for a gallon of milk?

you are ate up..Log off or something

265 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:33:05pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

I still don't understand why he published a racist newsletter for 10 years if he's not racist.

Because shut up that's why.

266 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:33:59pm

make a contribution from someone else's pocket

tax money is not 'somebody else's money'. it's my money. and your money

if government is the pathway to success, why does communism fail in such spectacular and predictable fashion?

the opposite of destroying government's ability to do useful things is not communism. who ever said anything as dumb as "government is the pathway to success"?

267 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:34:17pm

re: #258 unwashed masses

We are on a highway to hell in a porsche going faster than the speed limit and all we do is argue in the damn car. Can you compare this crap to the sins of our current government and the banking cartel? Are we gonna give a crap about these letters when we are paying ten bucks for a gallon of milk?

Yes, we are going off the rails. People like Ron Paul are the reason why.

268 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:34:41pm

re: #258 unwashed masses

Yep here comes the Ebil Bankers, right on schedule.

Please go take some real econ classes, read Smith, Marx, Keynes, Samuelson, Friedman, & Krugman. Then come back because at least then you'll be talking about something real.

269 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:34:59pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

I still don't understand why he published a racist newsletter for 10 years if he's not racist.

Apparently Kevin Bacon had something to do with it.

270 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:35:15pm

The guy has said a lot over his lifetime, and the fact that he stands up for the freedom of every single american citizen regardless of skin color is clear with every vote that he makes.

Now, keep in mind that Paul advances legislation for consideration by the congress all the time. Where once has he proposed legislation against any race, let alone one about "blacks"?

Let me tell you where... no where... because the man isn't a racist, which anyone who spends 5 minutes watching his youtube videos can tell. He is an honest and caring doctor who has delivered 4000 babies. Do you want to take odds on how many of those babies were "black"? I really don't think you would, as you'd find out that your "full-blown racist" story is a piece of crap.

271 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:36:48pm

government redistribution

the word 'redistribution' makes the poll question unacceptably tendentious

social security, medicare, infrastructure - these are not some commie boogyman "redistribution of income" - i'm paying for my ss and highways and i want them there when i need them thank you very much

272 recusancy  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:37:44pm

re: #270 unwashed masses

Do you believe in the Bell Curve?

273 BongCrodny  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:38:40pm

re: #269 jaunte

Apparently Kevin Bacon had something to do with it.


Six degrees of segregation?

274 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:39:08pm

re: #254 prononymous

These were Ron Paul's hearing on the Fed, he invited three different economic schools to the table, the monetarist, the Keynesian, and an Austrian.

DiLorenzo didn't talk about anything having to do with lincoln. Is this considered some sort of rebuttal of a valid argument. If that was the case, there would be no "separation of church and state" as we know it cuz that justice was a devoted Klansman deciding a case against Catholics. The hearing was about auditing the Fed, and questioning if artificially inflating the money supply and suppressing interest rates for 20 years is really a good idea.

WTF does that have to do with Lincoln's suspension of habeus corpus, and illegal detention of civilian dissenters? That's DiLorenzo's major problem with Lincoln, its not that he "freed the black man".

275 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:39:17pm

re: #266 engineer dog

make a contribution from someone else's pocket

tax money is not 'somebody else's money'. it's my money. and your money

if government is the pathway to success, why does communism fail in such spectacular and predictable fashion?

the opposite of destroying government's ability to do useful things is not communism. who ever said anything as dumb as "government is the pathway to success"?

Really? Everyone pays income taxes? Weird.

And communism is an example of death by too much government...so apparently, there is such a thing.

276 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:40:41pm

re: #258 unwashed masses

We are on a highway to hell in a porsche going faster than the speed limit and all we do is argue in the damn car. Can you compare this crap to the sins of our current government and the banking cartel? Are we gonna give a crap about these letters when we are paying ten bucks for a gallon of milk?


Ah, yes. Those pesky Jewish Bankers....
Buchanan, Demjanjuk and antisemitism


As Adam reported, a Ron Paul supporter who organized a “Tax Day Tea Party” event April 15 in San Mateo, California, posted this on her “Meetup” page, tying anti-tax sentiment to Israel bashing:

Image: israel-taxes1.jpeg

277 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:41:06pm

re: #271 engineer dog

government redistribution

the word 'redistribution' makes the poll question unacceptably tendentious

social security, medicare, infrastructure - these are not some commie boogyman "redistribution of income" - i'm paying for my ss and highways and i want them there when i need them thank you very much

if you have some specific criticism of the study, have at it. but don't substitute a rapid perusal of the abstract for actually considering the question.

278 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:41:51pm

re: #274 unwashed masses

He couldn't find anyone to make that point besides his racist friend?

Yeah, I'm sure a temporary suspension of certain right during a conflict is much more grievous than forcing certain groups of humans into slavery. /

279 kirkspencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:42:17pm

re: #255 Aceofwhat?

it also states unequivocally that those who oppose government redistribution were "much more likely to donate money to charities, religious organizations, and political candidates."

So for the sake of precision, i retract my statement that "conservatives give more to charity than liberals" and substitute the terms "those who oppose government redistribution" / "those who favor government redistribution" respectively.

It still makes my point, and perhaps even more effectively. For that i thank you. (not sarc)

From the paper:

Compared to those favoring greater income redistribution, anti-redistributionists are more likely to report that they donated money to charities, religious organizations, and political candidates (p
280 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:42:19pm

re: #274 unwashed masses

These were Ron Paul's hearing on the Fed, he invited three different economic schools to the table, the monetarist, the Keynesian, and an Austrian.

DiLorenzo didn't talk about anything having to do with lincoln. Is this considered some sort of rebuttal of a valid argument. If that was the case, there would be no "separation of church and state" as we know it cuz that justice was a devoted Klansman deciding a case against Catholics. The hearing was about auditing the Fed, and questioning if artificially inflating the money supply and suppressing interest rates for 20 years is really a good idea.

WTF does that have to do with Lincoln's suspension of habeus corpus, and illegal detention of civilian dissenters? That's DiLorenzo's major problem with Lincoln, its not that he "freed the black man".

I nominate this post for the most red herrings ever assembled into a single incoherent multitude. How many hungry people could you feed with all these red herrings?

281 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:42:58pm

re: #275 Aceofwhat?

Lots of persons don't pay income tax, but why are we talking about General electric?

282 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:43:06pm

re: #279 kirkspencer

From the paper:

yes. that is exactly what i said. thank you for agreeing!

283 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:43:37pm

re: #211 goddamnedfrank

Lew Rockwell.

[Link: reason.com...]

284 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:44:13pm

re: #280 Alouette

I nominate this post for the most red herrings ever assembled into a single incoherent multitude. How many hungry people could you feed with all these red herrings?

Depends. Are those herrings in the Kenneret, or on that little hill to the northwest?

285 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:45:26pm

re: #281 Decatur Deb

Lots of persons don't pay income tax, but why are we talking about General electric?

don't look at me, my Bama friend. i'm just as pissed about that as you are.

i say we lower the corporate tax, burn the loopholes, and take more money from corporations than we already do today while making this country a more attractive place to do business.

wait, didn't Simpson-Bowles recommend something just like that...?

286 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:45:54pm

re: #283 unwashed masses

If Ron Paul didn't read 8-page newsletters published in his name, how do the voters trust him to read legislation?

287 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:46:24pm

re: #283 unwashed masses

So why did Ron Paul spend decades employing a well know racist and publish his racist writings?

288 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:46:35pm

re: #283 unwashed masses

Lew Rockwell.

[Link: reason.com...]

You like Lew Rockwell?

289 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:47:16pm

re: #287 Killgore Trout

So why did Ron Paul spend decades employing a well know racist and publish his racist writings?

Auburn fan. WAR EAGLE!!1!

290 brookly red  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:47:40pm

Whew, 40 days without posting... there I did it.

291 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:48:30pm

re: #290 brookly red

Whew, 40 days without posting... there I did it.

Lenter observance, or a restraining order? Hi Brooly!!

292 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:48:37pm

re: #287 Killgore Trout

So why did Ron Paul spend decades employing a well know racist and publish his racist writings?

it's ok. i'm sure that auditing the Fed will be a much simpler undertaking than auditing his own employees and writers.

293 brookly red  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:50:00pm

re: #291 Decatur Deb

well being Jewish, I never tried lent before... it was actually pretty cool.

294 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:50:22pm

No, I'm not a "truther", I think islamic terrorist caused 9/11. And from what I can tell, Ron Paul believes the same(see blowback reference). What he is warning against is an administration that is willing to do what it needs to do to start a war it feels is necessary (no matter what the people may know/believe at the time). Not exactly a conspiracy theory, and not exactly far-fetched

295 kirkspencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:51:35pm

re: #279 kirkspencer

that chopped because of a less than symbol. I'm tweaking and repeating.

From the paper:

Compared to those favoring greater income redistribution, anti-redistributionists are more likely to report that they donated money to charities, religious organizations, and political candidates (p[less than].000000001).

That interesting p value is done with a n of 900. Everyone who does stats, raise your hand if that causes you to question the results.

296 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:52:32pm

re: #290 brookly red

Whew, 40 days without posting... there I did it.

*squints* Who are you again?

//

297 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:53:47pm

re: #290 brookly red

Whew, 40 days without posting... there I did it.

Welcome back.

298 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:55:35pm

"The quotations in The New Republic article are not mine and do not represent what I believe or have ever believed. I have never uttered such words and denounce such small-minded thoughts.

"In fact, I have always agreed with Martin Luther King, Jr. that we should only be concerned with the content of a person's character, not the color of their skin. As I stated on the floor of the U.S. House on April 20, 1999: I rise in great respect for the courage and high ideals of Rosa Parks who stood steadfastly for the rights of individuals against unjust laws and oppressive governmental policies.'

"This story is old news and has been rehashed for over a decade. It's once again being resurrected for obvious political reasons on the day of the New Hampshire primary.

"When I was out of Congress and practicing medicine full-time, a newsletter was published under my name that I did not edit. Several writers contributed to the product. For over a decade, I have publicly taken moral responsibility for not paying closer attention to what went out under my name."

299 brookly red  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:55:51pm

re: #297 Killgore Trout

why thank you, I still recognize most of the names on the user list so I guess everything pretty well round here, yes?

300 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:56:11pm

re: #275 Aceofwhat?

Really? Everyone pays income taxes? Weird.

And communism is an example of death by too much government...so apparently, there is such a thing.

yes, everybody who works pays taxes

are you under the impression that the progressive platform calls for a totalitarian dictatorship that attempts to control every aspect of society and economic activity? if not, please discontinue to speak as if the only alternative to your program is a stalinist state

thank you

301 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:56:26pm

re: #111 Lidane

Oh dear. You're a libertarian, aren't you? That was pretty much a libertarian talking point from start to finish.

Oh, nothing wrong with a little fantasy so long as it doesn't give indigestion.

302 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:56:59pm

re: #299 brookly red

why thank you, I still recognize most of the names on the user list so I guess everything pretty well round here, yes?

Looks like you accidentally a word.

303 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:57:26pm

re: #228 MarkAM

Idle question. How did the attacker know this woman was transgendered? With or without surgery. We're having all this discussion of body parts, but the fact remains that women's restrooms have stalls with doors on them. Who would ever know? Unless they already knew her and just felt like beating her up.

304 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:57:38pm

From the thirteen books he has authored...to the countless speech transcripts available at house.gov...to the hundreds of videos of him actually speaking...there is no corroborating evidence to support the allegation that he has ever had views such as that in these horrid newsletters...

He publicly accepted responsibility and apologized for his lack of oversight back in October 2001 in an interview in Texas Monthly magazine...sure, he should have known this would come back up in his bid for President and acted in a more proactive manner...

It's a shame that volumes of words that can be truly attributed to him are ignored by many due to a small number of words (in relation to his many other works) that cannot be definitively ascribed to him...

305 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:57:41pm

re: #299 brookly red

why thank you, I still recognize most of the names on the user list so I guess everything pretty well round here, yes?

Freakn' love-feast.

306 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:59:03pm

re: #63 jaunte

The Magdalene asylums:

Watched a movie based on the facts. The movie also highlighted a woman who had been raped by her cousin, a girl who was too flirtatious, and a woman who had a child out of wedlock. All three were sent there against their will. It's morally appalling what the Roman Church has done.

307 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 1:59:42pm

Really? Everyone pays income taxes? Weird.

besides which, i meant to make the point that when i call for government support programs, i am calling for spending my own money, not "somebody else's money", a lot more than other people since it happens that i make a very nice living and pay a high tax rate

"socialism works fine until you run out of other people's money"

spit

it's only "other people's money" if you have contrived to not pay any taxes, which i certainly have not. are you saying that you don't pay taxes?

308 brookly red  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:00:07pm

re: #302 negativ

you speak brooklynese too?

309 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:00:59pm

re: #295 kirkspencer

that chopped because of a less than symbol. I'm tweaking and repeating.

From the paper:

That interesting p value is done with a n of 900. Everyone who does stats, raise your hand if that causes you to question the results.

n from the table was over 1600

310 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:01:00pm

re: #304 unwashed masses

From the thirteen books he has authored...to the countless speech transcripts available at house.gov...to the hundreds of videos of him actually speaking...there is no corroborating evidence to support the allegation that he has ever had views such as that in these horrid newsletters...

He publicly accepted responsibility and apologized for his lack of oversight back in October 2001 in an interview in Texas Monthly magazine...sure, he should have known this would come back up in his bid for President and acted in a more proactive manner...

It's a shame that volumes of words that can be truly attributed to him are ignored by many due to a small number of words (in relation to his many other works) that cannot be definitively ascribed to him...

It sure took him a long time to figure out a story. This is what he said during the 1996 campaign:
"....Paul said allegations about his writings amounted to name-calling by the Democrats..."
Lew Rockwell's name didn't come up.

311 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:01:07pm

As a Libertarian in private life, Ron Paul would believe in free speech as an absolute and not restrict the right of anyone to say anything. This does not mean that he would agree with or advocate what was said. The newsletters in question were issued when he was out of public office. Thinking that the newsletter was a harmless little blurb issued by supporters of his policies while in government, it would not be unusual for him to not pay attention. As some people lost interest, left, and others moved in, he was obviously taken advantage of by extremists seeking to give their writings credibility by using his name.

No one has ever heard Ron make a racist remark. He could not be a libertarian and racist at the same time.

Of much more concern is the lynch mob that is running free all over the country these days.

The same ignorant, angry mob, falsely accused and lynched the Duke lacrosse players. It did not matter what they said. They were hung.

The same ignorant, angry mob, falsely accused and lynched Kelly Tilghman. It did not matter what Kelly or, her supposed victim, Tiger Woods said.

Now The same ignorant, angry mob, is after Ron Paul. It does not matter what he has actually said or says.

312 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:02:50pm

re: #294 unwashed masses

No, I'm not a "truther", I think islamic terrorist caused 9/11. And from what I can tell, Ron Paul believes the same(see blowback reference). What he is warning against is an administration that is willing to do what it needs to do to start a war it feels is necessary (no matter what the people may know/believe at the time). Not exactly a conspiracy theory, and not exactly far-fetched

So why didn't he just say, "because the truth is already out"?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

313 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:03:30pm

Also:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

LOL.

314 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:03:44pm

re: #311 unwashed masses

Why do you suppose he voted against giving Rosa Parks a Congressional gold medal?

315 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:04:02pm

re: #300 engineer dog

yes, everybody who works pays taxes

are you under the impression that the progressive platform calls for a totalitarian dictatorship that attempts to control every aspect of society and economic activity? if not, please discontinue to speak as if the only alternative to your program is a stalinist state

thank you

individual income taxes are 45% of the government's income, IIRC. so yes, everybody who works pays taxes. and then some people also pay income tax.

and i am not under any such impression, nor did i say that i had a 'program', nor did i speak as if the only alternative is a stalinist state. how many more things i didn't say do we need to list? wouldn't it be simpler for you to read what i wrote and then respond accordingly? sure seems simpler.

316 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:04:53pm

communism is an example

it may interest you to find out that republicanism and stalinism are not the only choices available in the arena of public policy

of death by too much government

perhaps we could bring this up the next time we go ask the chinese government to help up finance another war

317 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:05:38pm

re: #306 eclectic infidel

Watched a movie based on the facts. The movie also highlighted a woman who had been raped by her cousin, a girl who was too flirtatious, and a woman who had a child out of wedlock. All three were sent there against their will. It's morally appalling what the Roman Church has done.

It wasn't just the Catholics, IIRC back in the '60s, the majority of boys in the juvenile justice system were there because of crimes, the majority of girls were there for moral offenses along the lines of being promiscuous or not obeying their parents. I don't suppose Juvenile Halls were run any better then than now.

318 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:06:10pm

Perhaps he doesn't get her statement "the truth about 9-11" as being something to do with a bunch of weirdo conspiracy nuts. The truth about 9-11, in his mind, probably has to do with CIA blowback, and our foreign involvement in other countries causing repercussions, here. That tends to be what he says about that topic.

319 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:07:02pm

re: #275 Aceofwhat?

Really? Everyone pays income taxes? Weird.

Income tax isn't the only tax you know. engineer dog said tax money, you qualified the term deceptively to suit your agenda. Social Security, Medicare, State and local sales tax, all hurt low wage earners the most.

320 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:07:30pm

re: #315 Aceofwhat?

individual income taxes are 45% of the government's income, IIRC. so yes, everybody who works pays taxes. and then some people also pay income tax.

thank you for noticing that

and i am not under any such impression, nor did i say that i had a 'program', nor did i speak as if the only alternative is a stalinist state.

then why did you bring it up?

321 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:07:37pm

re: #318 unwashed masses

Nice acrobatics.

322 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:07:56pm

re: #311 unwashed masses

No one has ever heard Ron make a racist remark. He could not be a libertarian and racist at the same time.

Right, because racism is only for those collectivists, you said that. Because you have to believe in assigning people to groups and making judgements based on those collectives, which is something only those collectivists do, and those liberals, and that angry mob does. And we libertarians don't think like that at all.

323 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:08:08pm

re: #316 engineer dog

communism is an example

it may interest you to find out that republicanism and stalinism are not the only choices available in the arena of public policy

of death by too much government

perhaps we could bring this up the next time we go ask the chinese government to help up finance another war

perhaps. but are you saying that communism is, all in all, an example of a successful government paradigm?

324 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:08:58pm

re: #314 jaunte

Paul suggested that Congress pitch in $100 each to pay for the medal. NONE OF THEM VOLUNTEERED! It's easy for Congress to spend our money, but it's a little different when asked to open their own wallets.

325 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:10:01pm

re: #324 unwashed masses

The medal was funded by sales of other medal replicas, but since he didn't read the bill before making a speech about it, he didn't know that.

326 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:10:05pm

re: #324 unwashed masses

Paul suggested that Congress pitch in $100 each to pay for the medal. NONE OF THEM VOLUNTEERED! It's easy for Congress to spend our money, but it's a little different when asked to open their own wallets.

[Video]

Has he voted against all medals?

327 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:10:15pm

re: #319 goddamnedfrank

Income tax isn't the only tax you know. engineer dog said tax money, you qualified the term deceptively to suit your agenda. Social Security, Medicare, State and local sales tax, all hurt low wage earners the most.

no, we usually talk about 'raising taxes' in terms of income tax. but i clarified anyway in a later post, unfortunately for your attempt to paint me as deceptive.

also, i hear very little whining from you about the European VAT, since it hurts low wage earners the most.

328 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:10:46pm

re: #311 unwashed masses

Then why does he still associate with Lew Rockwell after all those racist writtings?
Ron Paul and Lew Rockwell chat

329 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:11:50pm

re: #315 Aceofwhat?

look, it's quite clear to me that you are relying on two false assertions to make your point

1. using government to accomplish a goal is wrong because the soviet union

2. tax money is "other people's money"

please stop

330 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:11:57pm

re: #325 jaunte

The medal was funded by sales of other medal replicas, but since he didn't read the bill before making a speech about it, he didn't know that.

Ignorance seems to be a common theme with Mr. Paul.

331 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:12:34pm

re: #320 engineer dog

thank you for noticing that

then why did you bring it up?

to make sure that everyone agreed that there was such a thing as 'too much government'. i though we generally agreed on that, so we moved on.

i was bookending the subject (note that i also wrote that there is such a thing as too little government, lest you think i had some nefarious agenda to paint progressives as commies) in an attempt to meet somewhere in the middle.

usually, attempting to meet people in the middle is looked upon as a favorable enterprise, but you seem bound and determined to find otherwise. not sure why.

332 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:13:21pm

re: #327 Aceofwhat?

also, i hear very little whining from you about the European VAT, since it hurts low wage earners the most.

They get what they pay for in terms of services. I hear very little truth from you about that.

333 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:13:25pm

re: #326 calochortus

He did the same thing to Reagan

334 sagehen  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:13:57pm

re: #255 Aceofwhat?

it also states unequivocally that those who oppose government redistribution were "much more likely to donate money to charities, religious organizations, and political candidates."

So for the sake of precision, i retract my statement that "conservatives give more to charity than liberals" and substitute the terms "those who oppose government redistribution" / "those who favor government redistribution" respectively.

It still makes my point, and perhaps even more effectively. For that i thank you. (not sarc)

The Koch Brothers give a ton of money to political candidates and PACs, they fund a lot of right-wing think-tanks -- so if what you meant to say is "anti-redistributionists give more to 501(c)(3) tax-deductible organizations", there's a plausible case to be made. I sure as hell wouldn't call that giving to charity.

335 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:14:01pm

re: #294 unwashed masses

No, I'm not a "truther", I think islamic terrorist caused 9/11. And from what I can tell, Ron Paul believes the same(see blowback reference). What he is warning against is an administration that is willing to do what it needs to do to start a war it feels is necessary (no matter what the people may know/believe at the time). Not exactly a conspiracy theory, and not exactly far-fetched

OK, so Ron Paul doesn't think that The Mossad/CIA was behind 9/11 but he does think that "We had it coming."

Fuck off, you annoying pissant.

336 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:16:53pm

re: #323 Aceofwhat?

perhaps. but are you saying that communism is, all in all, an example of a successful government paradigm?

are you saying that all countries that have ever practised any form of government that they describe as socialist in any way have been utter failures? are there any successful countries in the world that are less socialistic than the united states?

you do know, don't you, that it is not true that switzerland does not have income taxes, and it also does have universal health insurance, as indeed does every other civilized country in the world besides the united states

337 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:17:19pm

re: #333 unwashed masses

He did the same thing to Reagan

That was not my question. And I have done a little Googling to find that he is less than consistent about how government money is used for medals and commemorative coins No, not an identical issue as the medal would have self funded and the commemorative coin he supported would not.

338 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:19:19pm

re: #337 calochortus

Heh.

"It's time to call the Ron Paul's tendency to shield his beliefs behind the constitution for what it really is: An outright fraud."
[Link: ronpaulsurvivalreport.blogspot.com...]
339 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:19:56pm

re: #331 Aceofwhat?

to make sure that everyone agreed that there was such a thing as 'too much government'.

i also agree that motherhood and apple pie are not evil. yet you seem to think that making this anodyne assertion is an argument against government action. or else why would you bother to state it?

i was bookending the subject (note that i also wrote that there is such a thing as too little government, lest you think i had some nefarious agenda to paint progressives as commies) in an attempt to meet somewhere in the middle.

usually, attempting to meet people in the middle is looked upon as a favorable enterprise, but you seem bound and determined to find otherwise. not sure why.

um, so who was advocating too much government?

340 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:23:35pm

In a field of nothing but racist dickheads, he's the best of the bunch. Remember this is the GOP we are talking about here folks.

341 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:25:14pm

re: #323 Aceofwhat?

perhaps. but are you saying that communism is, all in all, an example of a successful government paradigm?

I'd suggest that the paradigm is less important than the details of the implementation. Is China successful?

342 theheat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:25:23pm

re: #340 unwashed masses

Shit by any other name is still shit. And that's what it's worth.

343 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:26:16pm

re: #340 unwashed masses

In a field of nothing but racist dickheads, he's the best of the bunch. Remember this is the GOP we are talking about here folks.

No question that RP is the most racist dickhead in the game.

Boy did you step into that one.

I almost think you're a froll.

344 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:27:33pm

re: #340 unwashed masses

In a field of nothing but racist dickheads, he's the best of the bunch. Remember this is the GOP we are talking about here folks.

So why would you even consider voting for any of them? There are, oh I don't know, Democrats out there you could vote for instead.

345 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:28:34pm

re: #317 calochortus

It wasn't just the Catholics, IIRC back in the '60s, the majority of boys in the juvenile justice system were there because of crimes, the majority of girls were there for moral offenses along the lines of being promiscuous or not obeying their parents. I don't suppose Juvenile Halls were run any better then than now.

Oh yeah, I remember reading about this in college. Spooky stuff. Really, made me uneasy when I learned about the voluminous abuses by our legal and mental health institutions. Coupled with the pathetic prudishness at that point of time and those kids were easily manipulated. I shudder to think the horrors those young women suffered while in detention.

346 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:28:37pm

re: #337 calochortus

It is interesting and good job with your research. Gotta give credit where credit is due.

In the scheme of things though, this tidbit of information is so small and irrelevant to the major problems we are facing in our country. If every candidate was looked at with a fine toothed comb like you have with this issue (and dont get me wrong, I think you did a commendable job and candidates should be put to the test) the enormity of discrepencies and outright lies from other candidates would take up a gigantic portion of the space in the Internet. Nobody is perfect, I just happen to think RP has a lot more integrity, common sense, and a more principled voting record of any other candidate.

347 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:30:01pm

re: #339 engineer dog

i also agree that motherhood and apple pie are not evil. yet you seem to think that making this anodyne assertion is an argument against government action. or else why would you bother to state it?

um, so who was advocating too much government?

People working for the government want more government so they don't lose their cushy government jobs. It's exactly like climate scientists pushing the politicians for climate change because they make the big bucks doing climate research, except career government workers don't do research, they just type shit on a computer.

348 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:30:16pm

re: #344 calochortus

I'm not decided yet, besides, my state is not an early primary state so by the time it gets here, there's never anyone left that I like.

349 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:30:21pm

re: #340 unwashed masses

In a field of nothing but racist dickheads, he's the best of the bunch. Remember this is the GOP we are talking about here folks.

Socially he might be slightly preferable to the others. Economically, he's one of the worst choices possible.

350 BongCrodny  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:30:50pm

re: #346 unwashed masses

It is interesting and good job with your research. Gotta give credit where credit is due.

In the scheme of things though, this tidbit of information is so small and irrelevant to the major problems we are facing in our country. If every candidate was looked at with a fine toothed comb like you have with this issue (and dont get me wrong, I think you did a commendable job and candidates should be put to the test) the enormity of discrepencies and outright lies from other candidates would take up a gigantic portion of the space in the Internet. Nobody is perfect, I just happen to think RP has a lot more integrity, common sense, and a more principled voting record of any other candidate.


Oh, barf.

351 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:32:17pm

re: #350 BongCrodny

Oh, barf.

Why is it, that when I first walk in the door somebody has puked on the floor?

352 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:32:50pm

The $30,000 to pay for the medal is indeed taxpayer money, hence the PUBLIC fund. Did you read (understand) the bill? It is essentially a $30,000 taxpayer-funded loan.
Whether the US Mint makes it back or not is irrelevant.

Arguing the mint is 'self-funded' is analogous to saying the federal government is 'self-funded' through the Treasury.

Any monies(profits) the US Mint makes goes into the US Treasury, which is as you know is taxpayer pools of money.

That's $30,000 which went to the medal and not into the Treasury per USC title 31 section 5136.

That 30K is taken from funds which would otherwise, by law, be destined for the Treasury - which is wrong in and of itself regardless of whether replicas end up covering the cost or not.

Inhibiting the flow of that 30K into the Treasury is the same as Congress taking from it, hence why this needed a Congressional vote in the first place - to authorize funding. If the money isn't of congress' constituents(taxpayers) then why vote?

Who fills the Treasury? Martians?

353 brookly red  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:33:11pm

re: #351 b_sharp

Why is it, that when I first walk in the door somebody has puked on the floor?

timing is everything...

354 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:33:14pm

re: #346 unwashed masses

You are welcome to support your candidate of choice. You may choose to overlook certain things about said candidate-no one is perfect and the only person I agree with 100% is myself. I assume the same is true for most people.

However, if you are planning to convert others to your point of view, denying a problem and then saying that it really isn't important when facts show otherwise, is not the way to do it.

355 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:33:53pm

re: #346 unwashed masses

I just happen to think RP has a lot more integrity, common sense, and a more principled voting record of any other candidate.

The same could be said about....the vegetarian, non-womanizing, squeaky-clean-pants, guy with the little mustache...

Shit I have done Godwined this thread.

356 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:34:17pm

re: #353 brookly red

timing is everything...

- quick, here he comes. Whose turn is it to throw up?

357 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:34:48pm

Sniff Sniff Do I smell a troll?

358 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:35:08pm

re: #355 Alouette

The same could be said about...the vegetarian, non-womanizing, squeaky-clean-pants, guy with the little mustache...

Shit I have done Godwined this thread.

Please slap your own wrist. ;-)

359 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:35:40pm

re: #357 PhillyPretzel

Sniff Sniff Do I smell a troll?

I had an accident, OK?
Sheesh.

360 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:35:42pm

re: #356 b_sharp

::: kicking out chuck bucket :::

361 BongCrodny  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:35:59pm

re: #356 b_sharp

- quick, here he comes. Whose turn is it to throw up?


Me! Me!

Oh, wait -- I already did that.

362 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:36:32pm

Obviously I can't vote democrat, as the idea of a National Healthcare program is just another large entitlement program to place right next to Medicare and SS on the list of programs ruining this country.

And every other Republican refuses to see the money that could be saved by ending what I consider to be a pointless war and drawing down our bloated military.

363 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:37:05pm

Thanks, suckers!

Ron Paul's Campaign Is a Family Business, FEC Reports Show
Paul's granddaughter Valori Pyeatt helps organize fundraising receptions and has been paid $17,157. Another granddaughter, Laura Paul ($2,724), handles orders for Ron Paul merchandise. Grandson Matthew Pyeatt ($3,251) manages Paul's MySpace profile. Daughter Peggy Paul ($2,224) helps with campaign logistics. The candidate's sons Randall and Robert and his daughter Joy Paul LeBlanc have all been paid for campaign travel and for appearing as surrogates at political events.

Who keeps track of all these finances? Paul's brother and daughter, naturally, who have been paid a combined $62,740 to handle the campaign's accounting.
......
Paul has received relatively few votes in his insurgent bid for the Republican nomination, but he has attracted an extraordinarily dedicated following that has flooded his campaign coffers with more than $30 million in donations. Even after releasing a video on his Web site in March indicating that he no longer expected to win the Republican nomination, Paul has continued to collect and spend those riches.

364 kirkspencer  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:38:01pm

re: #309 Aceofwhat?

n from the table was over 1600

No, the n from both tables 3 and 4 was 900. Even if it was "over 1600", the p of less than .000000001 is highly suspect.

365 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:38:40pm

re: #362 unwashed masses

Obviously I can't vote democrat, as the idea of a National Healthcare program is just another large entitlement program to place right next to Medicare and SS on the list of programs ruining this country.

And every other Republican refuses to see the money that could be saved by ending what I consider to be a pointless war and drawing down our bloated military.

Are citizens of the Gulch allowed to vote in U.S. elections?

366 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:39:38pm

re: #362 unwashed masses

Obviously I can't vote democrat, as the idea of a National Healthcare program is just another large entitlement program to place right next to Medicare and SS on the list of programs ruining this country.

Then you must not know much about the economics of risk pooling. National health care saves us all money in the long run. Or you are just stuck on the anti-entitlements ideological point.

367 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:41:25pm

re: #362 unwashed masses

Obviously I can't vote democrat, as the idea of a National Healthcare program is just another large entitlement program to place right next to Medicare and SS on the list of programs ruining this country.

have you already accumulated over a million dollars in your bank account so that you will be able to pay for all your expenses and medical care when you are too old or infirm to work?

368 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:42:54pm

re: #362 unwashed masses

Obviously I can't vote democrat, as the idea of a National Healthcare program is just another large entitlement program to place right next to Medicare and SS on the list of programs ruining this country.

And every other Republican refuses to see the money that could be saved by ending what I consider to be a pointless war and drawing down our bloated military.

I can't imagine why you think reducing poverty among the elderly is ruining this country. I further cannot imagine why you think spending more money for poorer medical outcomes than most of the developed world is a good thing. You are, however, entitled to your opinion.

369 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:43:04pm

re: #193 unwashed masses

So, you put up a "source" that Laup Nor isn't racist that points back to his (unofficial or official?) forums? Pardon me if I take that "proof" with a trainload of salt...

370 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:43:58pm

re: #362 unwashed masses

Obviously I can't vote democrat, as the idea of a National Healthcare program is just another large entitlement program to place right next to Medicare and SS on the list of programs ruining this country.

And every other Republican refuses to see the money that could be saved by ending what I consider to be a pointless war and drawing down our bloated military.

Oh noes...

Social programs are " ruining this country". OMFG!!1!!

371 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:45:11pm

re: #362 unwashed masses

What are you doing to stop global warming?

372 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:45:48pm

re: #204 unwashed masses

RP may not have written that racist, bigoted crap in his newsletters, but, as the person whose name is in the masthead, I hold him responsible for its content. At the very least, he was tacitly approving of its publication.

373 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:46:00pm

re: #369 talon_262

So, you put up a "source" that Laup Nor isn't racist that points back to his (unofficial or official?) forums? Pardon me if I take that "proof" with a trainload of salt...

As soon as someone links to Alex Jones as a source -- for anything -- that's it. They've lost me.

I'm not even going to read it. Life's too short.

374 freetoken  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:46:21pm
Who can take a sunrise, sprinkle it with dew
Cover it with choc'late and a miracle or two
RON PAUL!!, oh RON PAUL!! can
RON PAUL!! can 'cause he mixes it with love and makes the world taste good

Who can take a rainbow, wrap it in a sigh
Soak it in the sun and make a groovy lemon pie
RON PAUL!!, RON PAUL!! can
RON PAUL!! can 'cause he mixes it with love and makes the world taste good

RON PAUL!! makes everything he bakes satisfying and delicious
Now you talk about your childhood wishes, you can even eat the dishes

Oh, who can take tomorrow, dip it in a dream
Separate the sorrow and collect up all the cream
RON PAUL!!, oh RON PAUL!! can
RON PAUL!! can 'cause he mixes it with love and makes the world taste good

RON PAUL!! makes everything he bakes satisfying and delicious
Talk about your childhood wishes, you can even eat the dishes

Yeah, yeah, yeah
Who can take tomorrow, dip it in a dream
Separate the sorrow and collect up all the cream
RON PAUL!!, RON PAUL!! can
RON PAUL!! can 'cause he mixes it with love and makes the world taste good
Yes, RON PAUL!! can 'cause he mixes it with love and makes the world taste good
RON PAUL!!, RON PAUL!!, RON PAUL!!
RON PAUL!!, RON PAUL!!, RON PAUL!!
RON PAUL!!, a-RON PAUL!!, a-RON PAUL!!

375 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:46:22pm

re: #362 unwashed masses

Obviously I can't vote democrat, as the idea of a National Healthcare program is just another large entitlement program to place right next to Medicare and SS on the list of programs ruining this country

perhaps there is an example of some randian paradise with no nationalized program for medical insurance and pensions for the elderly, where unshackled private enterprise has flourished to make government action unnecessary and provided an abundant life for all

no there isn't

376 freetoken  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:46:50pm

Apologies to the late Sammy Davis Jr.

377 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:47:21pm

This is so cool. I have a -1 comment up there.

378 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:47:55pm

re: #371 Alouette

What are you doing to stop global warming?

I can answer this one:

He is promoting a loony economic perspective that is totally detached from reality. Ultimately, if implemented, the US economy will be ruined. With reduced economic output comes reduced emissions. Therefore he is secretly trying to save the earth by destroying america.

379 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:48:59pm

re: #375 engineer dog

perhaps there is an example of some randian paradise with no nationalized program for medical insurance and pensions for the elderly, where unshackled private enterprise has flourished to make government action unnecessary and provided an abundant life for all

no there isn't

The closest would have been 18th and 19th century England where kids worked 7 days a week and the poor went to jail.

380 brookly red  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:49:05pm

re: #378 prononymous

I can answer this one:

He is promoting a loony economic perspective that is totally detached from reality. Ultimately, if implemented, the US economy will be ruined. With reduced economic output comes reduced emissions. Therefore he is secretly trying to save the earth by destroying america.

unfortunately that theory popular in several camps.

381 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:49:22pm

re: #377 b_sharp

Poe's law strikes again.

382 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:50:14pm

re: #380 brookly red

unfortunately that theory popular in several camps.

Sure, not just libertarians like it. The republican party has been trying it for years. Starve the beast, etc.

383 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:50:14pm

re: #371 Alouette

What are you doing to stop global warming?

I'm holding my breath.

384 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:50:16pm

re: #379 b_sharp

The closest would have been 18th and 19th century England where kids worked 7 days a week and the poor went to jail.

This.

385 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:52:13pm

re: #381 prononymous

Poe's law strikes again.

I should probably use sarc tags.

386 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:52:57pm

re: #379 b_sharp

The closest would have been 18th and 19th century England where kids worked 7 days a week and the poor went to jail.

But didn't private charity take care of all the problems?
//

387 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:54:25pm

re: #385 b_sharp

I should probably use sarc tags.

I didn't think it was necessary. But then again, you never know when Poe will show up.

388 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:54:56pm

Yikes, it's been over a year since Peter Steele died.

In 2003, I saw Type O Negative in Dallas, and thanks to the intercession of a friend, I hung around with Steele and "Dimebag" Darrell Abbott later that night at The Clubhouse. I remember *some* of it, I think. #likeTheCornersOfMyMind

389 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:55:52pm

re: #369 talon_262

I realize that's not exactly the greatest source, but an audio link to the actual interview is given. Are you implying it's untrue because major news sources did not cover it? I have no idea why they did not.

-----------

"What are you doing to stop global warming?"

Me personally? I think the tipping point has already passed, sometime in the 80s, but anyway I use public transport exclusively, whatever impact I have is dwarfed by factories anyway. Not sure where you're going with this but here's RP:

"Global temperatures have been warming since the Little Ice Age. Studies within the respectable scientific community have shown that human beings are most likely a part of this process. As a Congressman, I've done a number of things to support environmentally friendly policies. I have been active in the Green Scissors campaign to cut environmentally harmful spending, I've opposed foreign wars for oil, and I've spoken out against government programs that encourage development in environmentally sensitive areas, such as flood insurance."

390 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:56:14pm

re: #386 calochortus

But didn't private charity take care of all the problems?
//

See "Magdalene Asylum" above.

391 Mocking Jay  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 2:57:12pm

re: #388 negativ

Yikes, it's been over a year since Peter Steele died.

[Video]In 2003, I saw Type O Negative in Dallas, and thanks to the intercession of a friend, I hung around with Steele and "Dimebag" Darrell Abbott later that night at The Clubhouse. I remember *some* of it, I think. #likeTheCornersOfMyMind

I saw them twice. Once they were opening for Pantera at the Nassau Colliseum. One of the best shows I've ever been to.

392 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:00:09pm

re: #389 unwashed masses

I realize that's not exactly the greatest source, but an audio link to the actual interview is given. Are you implying it's untrue because major news sources did not cover it? I have no idea why they did not.

---

"What are you doing to stop global warming?"

Me personally? I think the tipping point has already passed, sometime in the 80s, but anyway I use public transport exclusively, whatever impact I have is dwarfed by factories anyway. Not sure where you're going with this but here's RP:

"Global temperatures have been warming since the Little Ice Age. Studies within the respectable scientific community have shown that human beings are most likely a part of this process. As a Congressman, I've done a number of things to support environmentally friendly policies. I have been active in the Green Scissors campaign to cut environmentally harmful spending, I've opposed foreign wars for oil, and I've spoken out against government programs that encourage development in environmentally sensitive areas, such as flood insurance."

Save the planet, destroy Israel!

393 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:02:21pm

Israel is smart enough to take care of itself. The US needs to put its own house in order. Cutting means cutting everywhere, no favorites.

394 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:03:08pm

re: #232 unwashed masses

When you can't back what you say up with facts, baffle 'em with bullshit, right?

395 freetoken  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:04:15pm

re: #393 unwashed masses

Raise taxes.

396 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:04:46pm

re: #389 unwashed masses

I realize that's not exactly the greatest source, but an audio link to the actual interview is given. Are you implying it's untrue because major news sources did not cover it? I have no idea why they did not.

---

"What are you doing to stop global warming?"

Me personally? I think the tipping point has already passed, sometime in the 80s, but anyway I use public transport exclusively, whatever impact I have is dwarfed by factories anyway. Not sure where you're going with this but here's RP:

"Global temperatures have been warming since the Little Ice Age. Studies within the respectable scientific community have shown that human beings are most likely a part of this process. As a Congressman, I've done a number of things to support environmentally friendly policies. I have been active in the Green Scissors campaign to cut environmentally harmful spending, I've opposed foreign wars for oil, and I've spoken out against government programs that encourage development in environmentally sensitive areas, such as flood insurance."

Notice the denier talking point embedded within that statement? Further elaboration:


“The greatest hoax I think that has been around for many, many years if not hundreds of years has been this hoax on [...] global warming.” – Ron Paul on Fox Business, Nov. 4, 2009

“[The Copenhagen treaty on climate change] can’t help the economy. It has to hurt the economy and it can’t possibly help the environment because they’re totally off track on that. It might turn out to be one of the biggest hoaxes of all history, this whole global warming terrorism that they’ve been using, but we’ll have to just wait and see, but it cannot be helpful. It’s going to hurt everybody.” – Ron Paul on the Alex Jones Show, Nov. 5, 2009

397 freetoken  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:05:34pm

I love two word sentences that are grammatically correct - they're sort of like the Zen of English.

398 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:06:06pm

re: #393 unwashed masses

Cutting means cutting everywhere, no favorites.

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
Anatole France

399 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:06:10pm

re: #393 unwashed masses

Israel is smart enough to take care of itself. The US needs to put its own house in order. Cutting means cutting everywhere, no favorites.

Why not just take a pragmatic approach instead of a rigid ideological one? Why not cut some programs and raise taxes to fund the rest?

400 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:06:12pm

re: #264 HoosierHoops

you are ate up..Log off or something

Indeed, unwashed masses is AUWD (ate up with the dumbass)...

401 jaunte  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:06:24pm
I've spoken out against government programs that encourage development in environmentally sensitive areas, such as flood insurance.


Ron Paul's home address is 2422 Bluewater Highway, Surfside TX.
Look at the site on Google maps, and imagine him buying it without flood insurance.

402 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:06:43pm

re: #399 prononymous

Why not just take a pragmatic approach instead of a rigid ideological one? Why not cut some programs and raise taxes to fund the rest?

Quoted because I can only upding this once.

403 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:07:01pm

re: #270 unwashed masses

Yup, baffle 'em with bullshit...

404 Mocking Jay  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:07:10pm

re: #397 freetoken

I love two word sentences that are grammatically correct - they're sort of like the Zen of English.

I disagree.

...crap

405 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:07:24pm

re: #393 unwashed masses

Israel is smart enough to take care of itself. The US needs to put its own house in order. Cutting means cutting everywhere, no favorites.

the republican party passed a trillion dollar drug benefit that forbids the government from negotiating prices with drug companies, passed a trillion dollar tax cut, and started a trillion dollars worth of military actions

and then has the temerity to insist that we need to get serious about the budget

406 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:09:49pm

re: #397 freetoken

I love two word sentences that are grammatically correct - they're sort of like the Zen of English.

a society lady at a formal dinner said to president coolidge "oh, mr coolidge, i made a bet with my friends that i could get you to say more than two words!"

he replied "you lose"

407 brookly red  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:11:46pm

I can't help but feel like I have been here before :P

408 allegro  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:12:16pm

re: #404 JasonA

I disagree.

...crap

No shit.

409 Mocking Jay  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:12:34pm

re: #408 allegro

No shit.

Shut up!

410 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:14:47pm

re: #160 unwashed masses

The idea that a year of college should cost as much as a median household's total income is insane.

And yet, those are the prices that the market can bear. Ain't capitalism grand?

411 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:15:48pm

re: #373 Charles

As soon as someone links to Alex Jones as a source -- for anything -- that's it. They've lost me.

I'm not even going to read it. Life's too short.

Try getting stuck in a cab when the cabbie has Alex Jones babbling on the radio. Oy. Talk about migraine inducing. =P

412 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:17:07pm

re: #110 unwashed masses

In a free society, anyone can work and save money no matter how poor they are. 50 years ago this was entirely possible. You could just work hard and save money for college. There was no need to give free money to the poor for education. But now the government takes so much of your money that you can't afford college if you're poor and work hard. Now you have to rely on the government taking money from other hard workers and giving it to you, instead of just working hard yourself. And people are happy about this. Especially the ones that don't work hard. They don't want Ron Paul to help remove unfair redistribution of wealth. They basically don't want to be in charge of their lives. They want more things for free and bigger government, because it's too hard to earn things yourself now. With all this big government messing us up we need bigger government to help us get by. Right.

Government taxes are at an all time low, and employee paychecks for middle and lower class have more or less flatlined.

So I'm sorry but I'm afraid you're ass backwards, the problem here is with corporate pay and employee revenues not with government taking money from people.

413 Mocking Jay  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:17:18pm

re: #410 Lidane

And yet, those are the prices that the market can bear. Ain't capitalism grand?

Well mebbe if the gov't stopped giving people money to go to college prices would come down!!!

/

414 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:18:01pm

re: #410 Lidane

Part of what's happened is this:

State legislators don't want to raise taxes, they want to be perceived as keeping taxes and government expenses low. One way they can do this is to reduce the state's share of monies put into what's supposed to be a state-supported system of higher education. When that starts it's up to the colleges/universities to figure out where they're going to get the money they formerly received from the state. Even if the institution's expenses didn't rise---impossible, given increased energy costs, need to increase salaries, etc.---that would necessitate an increase in tuition, since there's nowhere else the money is going to come from. So outright tuition and sneaky "fees" go up, up, up.

I spoke not long ago to the president of a state university and asked why students had to be hundreds of dollars extra if they took an online course. "Why, do you know what it costs to deliver an online course?" he queried. "No, I don't," I replied. "How much?" He gave me the bureaucrats' patented quizzical look and replied, "Well, a lot." He hadn't a clue, but he did know that each year his state's legislature was cutting down the amount and percentage of overall costs it was responsible for and that his institution needed to make up for it somehow.

Another way of dealing with the issue---though various means are combined, so it's not a single solution or single cause situation---is to increase class size. If you're a professor teaching four classes a semester and you have 45 students in a survey course, 30 in another, 20 in the third, and 5 in the fourth class guess what happens when next semester you're teaching 150 in a survey, another 150 in a second survey, 25 online (remember that extra fee), and 5 in a graduate seminar? Instead of teaching 100 students you're dealing with three times that number. While your student population isn't infinite you, as a college/university administrator, are now in a position to close down faculty lines as they become available through retirement, etc., because you've got one faculty member doing the work that previously required three professors.

415 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:19:19pm

College prices have to come down. A generation ago, there wasn't hundreds of billions of dollars of college loans available to whoever wanted one. The same dynamic that drove home prices to unaffordable levels in the past five years have been making college unaffordable for the last 25.

416 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:19:26pm

re: #414 unwashed masses

All your blather about state universities don't mean squat to me. I'm going to a private university, not a public one.

The market can bear me paying $12k a semester for an MBA, so that's what I'm paying.

417 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:20:10pm

re: #416 Lidane

PIMF-- that should be "doesn't mean squat to me".

418 brookly red  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:20:42pm

re: #413 JasonA

Well mebbe if the gov't stopped giving people money to go to college prices would come down!!!

/

there is some truth to that, I personally don't want to see that happen, but supply & demand yada, yada, yada.

419 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:21:32pm

re: #304 unwashed masses

No, the difference between what Paul has "allowed" to be published in his newsletters (even if he didn't write it) and what he has said publicly in response to what was printed in those newsletters tells me that Paul is a shifty, two-faced sonofabitch that knows raw bigotry doesn't play in the wider arena of modern American politics.

The newsletters were more than a wink-and-a-nod to his base, back home and for whoever else was a fan of his.

/don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining

420 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:21:47pm

Is college still worth the price?
The high sticker price is actually part of many colleges' marketing strategy. For as counterintuitive as it seems, schools have often found that raising tuition attracts more applicants because families tend to equate high price with quality. Marketers call it the Chivas Regal effect.

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

421 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:22:51pm

re: #415 unwashed masses

College prices have to come down. A generation ago, there wasn't hundreds of billions of dollars of college loans available to whoever wanted one. The same dynamic that drove home prices to unaffordable levels in the past five years have been making college unaffordable for the last 25.

Or maybe... and here's just a wild thought... the amount that we pay employees in the private (and public) sector needs to go up dramatically so John Q Six pack has the money to spend on college.

You know, because it's not like Worthington Quincy Six Yacht can't afford it.


[Link: money.cnn.com...]

The above graph shows the real problem that America needs to deal with...

422 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:23:32pm

re: #420 unwashed masses

So wait...now you're arguing that college isn't worth the price at all?

Weren't you just arguing earlier that college was too expensive and should be cheaper and more affordable?

423 brookly red  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:23:36pm

re: #421 jamesfirecat

Or maybe... and here's just a wild thought... the amount that we pay employees in the private (and public) sector needs to go up dramatically so John Q Six pack has the money to spend on college.

You know, because it's not like Worthington Quincy Six Yacht can't afford it.

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

The above graph shows the real problem that America needs to deal with...

and rent is too damn high too.

424 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:25:15pm

re: #423 brookly red

and rent is too damn high too.

I don't care what anyone says-- that guy had a righteous beard.

425 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:27:23pm

re: #414 unwashed masses

Part of what's happened is this:

State legislators don't want to raise taxes, they want to be perceived as keeping taxes and government expenses low. One way they can do this is to reduce the state's share of monies put into what's supposed to be a state-supported system of higher education. When that starts it's up to the colleges/universities to figure out where they're going to get the money they formerly received from the state. Even if the institution's expenses didn't rise---impossible, given increased energy costs, need to increase salaries, etc.---that would necessitate an increase in tuition, since there's nowhere else the money is going to come from. So outright tuition and sneaky "fees" go up, up, up.

I spoke not long ago to the president of a state university and asked why students had to be hundreds of dollars extra if they took an online course. "Why, do you know what it costs to deliver an online course?" he queried. "No, I don't," I replied. "How much?" He gave me the bureaucrats' patented quizzical look and replied, "Well, a lot." He hadn't a clue, but he did know that each year his state's legislature was cutting down the amount and percentage of overall costs it was responsible for and that his institution needed to make up for it somehow.

Another way of dealing with the issue---though various means are combined, so it's not a single solution or single cause situation---is to increase class size. If you're a professor teaching four classes a semester and you have 45 students in a survey course, 30 in another, 20 in the third, and 5 in the fourth class guess what happens when next semester you're teaching 150 in a survey, another 150 in a second survey, 25 online (remember that extra fee), and 5 in a graduate seminar? Instead of teaching 100 students you're dealing with three times that number. While your student population isn't infinite you, as a college/university administrator, are now in a position to close down faculty lines as they become available through retirement, etc., because you've got one faculty member doing the work that previously required three professors.

Sounds more like the state governors/people in charge need to have a collective unbunching of their panties (no offense to those who wear them) and raise taxes, and remind American people that taxes are not a bad thing, rather than trying to take in more revenue in round about ineffective ways.

Would you support raising taxes on in the top income tax bracket up to, say 42% to free up some money for more quality education for everyone?

426 brookly red  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:27:32pm

re: #424 Lidane

I don't care what anyone says-- that guy had a righteous beard.

I am tellin ya, he is a real possibility in 2012.

427 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:27:41pm

College may not be for everyone. Some people could just go to a community or junior college and get a two-year associates degree and start working. Others could benefit from apprenticeship programs. Others are lucky and through hard work and entrepreneurship become very wealthy even though they only have a High School diploma. The problem is that going to college is kind of a status symbol, something everyone is expected to do even though not everyone might need it. It goes back reforming our education system.r

428 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:28:14pm

re: #415 unwashed masses

The price of college doesn't "have to" do anything. I fail to understand what point you are trying to make here. That it would be more affordable if fewer people go afford it? People borrowed money to go to college 40 years ago, and probably before that as well. There are many private "career colleges" that are using the student loan programs to rake in money from the unsophisticated, but I don't think loans have been the primary reason for tuition increases in general.

FYI, real estate prices have been escalating in much of the country for decades without the recent mortgage issues. Two income households are one reason.

429 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:28:48pm

re: #427 unwashed masses

College may not be for everyone. Some people could just go to a community or junior college and get a two-year associates degree and start working. Others could benefit from apprenticeship programs. Others are lucky and through hard work and entrepreneurship become very wealthy even though they only have a High School diploma. The problem is that going to college is kind of a status symbol, something everyone is expected to do even though not everyone might need it. It goes back reforming our education system.r

What kind of reforms do you suggest?

430 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:28:51pm

re: #426 brookly red

I am tellin ya, he is a real possibility in 2012.

Given the shitty choices in the 2012 GOP lineup so far, he might just be. Heh.

431 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:29:33pm

re: #427 unwashed masses

College may not be for everyone. Some people could just go to a community or junior college and get a two-year associates degree and start working. Others could benefit from apprenticeship programs. Others are lucky and through hard work and entrepreneurship become very wealthy even though they only have a High School diploma. The problem is that going to college is kind of a status symbol, something everyone is expected to do even though not everyone might need it. It goes back reforming our education system.r

My daughter got accepted to Columbia grad school because of her excellent grades, but may not be able to attend unless she gets financial aid.

So, fuck you sideways.

432 prairiefire  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:29:38pm

re: #423 brookly red

and rent is too damn high too.

Hey, brookly. How ya holding up?

433 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:29:43pm

re: #428 calochortus

I fail to understand what point you are trying to make here..

Welcome to Paulian Logic 101. It doesn't have to make sense. It just has to sound vaguely libertarian.

434 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:30:14pm

re: #427 unwashed masses

College may not be for everyone. Some people could just go to a community or junior college and get a two-year associates degree and start working. Others could benefit from apprenticeship programs. Others are lucky and through hard work and entrepreneurship become very wealthy even though they only have a High School diploma. The problem is that going to college is kind of a status symbol, something everyone is expected to do even though not everyone might need it. It goes back reforming our education system.r

i get suspicious when i hear suggestions that some people would be better off expecting less

435 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:30:43pm

re: #428 calochortus

The price of college doesn't "have to" do anything. I fail to understand what point you are trying to make here. That it would be more affordable if fewer people go could afford it?


PIMF

436 prairiefire  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:31:02pm

re: #433 Lidane

Hey, I took you online survey. It was interesting. I added dr.s and perfume to things I read ratings of.

437 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:31:25pm

re: #434 engineer dog

i get suspicious when i hear suggestions that some people would be better off expecting less

How else can we return to a feudal system? If people actually expect to get an education and make something of their life, they won't be so quick to fall for Ron Paul's bullshit.

438 brookly red  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:32:03pm

re: #430 Lidane

Given the shitty choices in the 2012 GOP lineup so far, he might just be. Heh.

don't kid yourself, people vote their pocketbooks regardless of party

439 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:32:59pm

re: #436 prairiefire

Hey, I took you online survey. It was interesting. I added dr.s and perfume to things I read ratings of.

Thanks! I really appreciate it. :)

We needed to get at least 60 responses to get a decent enough sample size, and because my research partner and I chose to target gamers, we hit the threshold pretty quickly. I was happy.

440 brookly red  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:33:01pm

re: #432 prairiefire

Hey, brookly. How ya holding up?

well both of my very expensive degrees are still unemployed

441 Kruk  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:33:25pm

re: #20 darthstar

You know why this 'fuck the poor' strategy works so well with the teabaggers? They all believe (or want to believe) that they may some day be part of the elite class. In the meantime, they struggle to fill their cars with gas and feed their families just like everyone else.

Ferengi Teabag workers don't want to end the exploitation. They want to become the exploiters.

442 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:33:52pm

re: #438 brookly red

don't kid yourself, people vote their pocketbooks regardless of party

Oh, I know. If the economy improves enough, Obama gets a second term. If it craters, he gets bounced out on his ass. That's how it always is.

443 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:34:08pm

re: #399 prononymous

Why not just take a pragmatic approach instead of a rigid ideological one? Why not cut some programs and raise taxes to fund the rest?

Because that would require actual thought and planning, instead of relying on knee-jerk reflexive dogma...thinking is hard, dontchaknow?

444 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:34:10pm

re: #438 brookly red

don't kid yourself, people vote their pocketbooks regardless of party

One major caveat there Brooky... people will try to vote their pocketbook regardless of party.

Many times people will vote against their own best interest because they can't realize the long term results of their opinions/actions.

445 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:34:18pm

re: #434 engineer dog

i get suspicious when i hear suggestions that some people would be better off expecting less

Very true, although obviously some people don't need to go to college. Some just don't want to. The actual question is: Should those who want to go to college, even though they want to go into plumbing as their life's work, be able to go even if they aren't rich? Is society better if more people can be educated in the way that works best for them.
I'd say the answer is yes.

446 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:34:29pm

re: #429 jamesfirecat

Eliminating a lot of college "sports" would go a long way in keeping down costs. Also, [Link: www.howtogermany.com...]

447 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:34:55pm

re: #434 engineer dog

i get suspicious when i hear suggestions that some people would be better off expecting less

That's the whole purpose behind the Republican attempts to gut public education in a nutshell.

448 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:35:33pm

re: #446 unwashed masses

Eliminating a lot of college "sports" would go a long way in keeping down costs. Also, [Link: www.howtogermany.com...]

Why the quotation marks around "sports"?

449 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:36:23pm

re: #446 unwashed masses

LOL. As if college sports will ever go away. Keep dreaming.

450 Kruk  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:36:30pm

re: #39 abbyadams

This. This. This. I got to the same conclusion a few weeks ago. I really think there is a certain percentage of people that think if "The Government" got out of their way, they would be rich.

It's like one of my ex-students told me: "Oh, I could have been a doctor but my teachers didn't like me." Meanwhile, this person never showed up for class, did any work, or showed any real interest in doing anything they needed to become a doctor.

Heh. I bet this the same kind of person who complains about others having an entitlement mentality.

451 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:37:37pm

re: #444 jamesfirecat

One major caveat there Brooky... people will try to vote their pocketbook regardless of party.

Many times people will vote against their own best interest because they can't realize the long term results of their opinions/actions.

Many times people will vote against their own best interests because they are unable to recognize them on their own and have to be told what their best interests are, which opens up input from liars and thieves.

452 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:38:00pm

re: #431 Alouette

We'll see up close whether or not $60,000 a year--just for tuition and r&b--will translate into far higher wages than had she gone to UC or the School of Mines. Methinks no.

453 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:38:34pm

re: #424 Lidane

I don't care what anyone says-- that guy had a righteous beard.

I have to ding up any and all righteous beards.

long live the Beard Liberation Front!

454 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:39:40pm

re: #452 unwashed masses

We'll see up close whether or not $60,000 a year--just for tuition and r&b--will translate into far higher wages than had she gone to UC or the School of Mines. Methinks no.

Heh... you're poking around the problem not realizing the issue.

It's not that college costs too much it's that wages across the board, once again are too low.

If the middle class isn't wealthy enough to be the middle class then until you fix that issue you're only popping warts on the face of a man whose been shot in the chest.

455 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:40:19pm

For the hundreds (thousands?) or students who graduate every year with a degree in business or psychology or such simply because they were supposed to go to college but they had no idea what they wanted to do, yes it's overrated.

For those who go, get the degree in the field they want and move on to graduate school or a job it's definitely worth it.

It's been driven into our heads that you HAVE to go to college. That's unfortunate since many people would benefit from either waiting a few years and going when they had some focus, or simply not going at all and getting training in a skilled trade through on the job training or an apprenticeship program. The only worth I see anymore in a college degree is that it allows you to get more ass than a toilet seat.

456 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:40:29pm

re: #454 jamesfirecat

Heh... you're poking around the problem not realizing the issue.

It's not that college costs too much it's that wages across the board, once again are too low.

If the middle class isn't wealthy enough to be the middle class then until you fix that issue you're only popping warts on the face of a man whose been shot in the chest.

prices go up - wages go down - you can't explain that................

457 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:40:34pm

re: #454 jamesfirecat

Heh... you're poking around the problem not realizing the issue.

It's not that college costs too much it's that wages across the board, once again are too low.

If the middle class isn't wealthy enough to be the middle class then until you fix that issue you're only popping warts on the face of a man whose been shot in the chest.

Not realizing the true issue, and they are too low "across the board" for middle and low income workers.

Sorry for not being clear about that, wages are too high for the people at the top.

458 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:40:34pm

re: #452 unwashed masses

We'll see up close whether or not $60,000 a year--just for tuition and r&b--will translate into far higher wages than had she gone to UC or the School of Mines. Methinks no.

Would that be Colo. School of Mines? And are you by any chance a student there?

459 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:40:45pm

re: #216 Aceofwhat?

Sensitivity cuts both ways. I would and do expect that an anatomically male transgendered individual is sensitive enough to understand that rather than ask women in the women's bathroom to take it on faith that she is a true transgendered person at heart, it is more sensitive to use the restroom designated to their current anatomical condition.

In addition, i fail to see how it is less sensitive or insulting an individual to be assigned a bathroom based on their anatomical status rather than some more subjective criteria like an assessment of how completely they have pursued a transgender identity.

OK, coming in insanely late here, but I can't really let this go. I think that you are, without any ill intentions, taking a vastly oversimplified view of this sort of thing. What you're basically saying is that a MTF transsexual should never go out in public presenting as a female until she has had genital surgery, since there's always a chance she might need to use a public restroom and then we have a problem. You say she shouldn't use the Women's Room, since, to you, she's 'not yet a woman', but what do you think would happen if she tried to use the Men's Room? That just seems like a recipe for confusion and potential mistreatment.

Even worse would be FTMs. As stated previously, there really isn't a truly equivalent surgery for them and many don't do all of what *is* available. Should they, therefore, always use the Women's Room in public? I'm sure I don't need to spell out how bad an idea that would be.

And what about manly women and feminine men? Should the police be called on a butch lesbian trying to use the women's bathroom, since some other women might think she looks like a guy (Which a friend on mine said she saw happen before)?

If I seem a bit perturbed at all this, it's because the whole bathroom issue is a favorite talking point of bigots in trying to hold back transgendered rights. For example, here in Massachusetts there has been talk in recent years about a bill to protect transgendered individuals from discrimination (Like is done for race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc.) that has failed to pass. Last year, the main line of attack for opponents was to refer to it as a "bathroom bill" that would allow perverts to go into women's restrooms and do god knows what, as long as they claimed to be transgendered. That's a joke and it's not what will happen (You'd hear stories about it from the dozen or so states that already had similar laws if it did, for one).

460 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:41:27pm

re: #434 engineer dog

i get suspicious when i hear suggestions that some people would be better off expecting less

I understand, but its true. If it were better understood that college isn't for everyone, then people might get training programs that would prepare them for work at a lower cost.

461 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:42:09pm

re: #438 brookly red

don't kid yourself, people vote their pocketbooks regardless of party

Hello, Brookly! Glad to see you!

462 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:43:36pm

re: #459 Simply Sarah

See also: ERA will mandate single sex bathrooms... This is a long standing worry for some.

463 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:43:40pm

re: #460 Dark_Falcon

I understand, but its true. If it were better understood that college isn't for everyone, then people might get training programs that would prepare them for work at a lower cost.

In the UK qualified plumbers, gas fitters and electricians out-earn English grads.

I wish i'd never gone to university and had gone on some vocational or technical courses - or heaven forfend - straight into work. As it was i flamed out after just over a year of college.

464 Mocking Jay  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:43:49pm

re: #461 Dark_Falcon

Hello, Brookly! Glad to see you!

I suppose someone had to be...

/

465 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:44:20pm

re: #464 JasonA

I suppose someone had to be...

/

Cat.

466 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:44:49pm

re: #460 Dark_Falcon

I understand, but its true. If it were better understood that college isn't for everyone, then people might get training programs that would prepare them for work at a lower cost.

While I can agree with you in part there Dark, another part of me has to say that in theory college is more than just about the education it should be (it isn't always but it should be) also about going some place where you are exposed to a more dramatically varying group of people than you'd ever likely meet in your high school and thus it broadens your range of empty to all the different kinds of people who make up this world.

That's why I can't stand colleges like Liberty University, not only do they fail at giving good educations much of the time, they also seem bound to fail at providing students with a properly wide spread sampling of humanity to interact with....

467 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:45:22pm

re: #420 unwashed masses

Is college still worth the price?
The high sticker price is actually part of many colleges' marketing strategy. For as counterintuitive as it seems, schools have often found that raising tuition attracts more applicants because families tend to equate high price with quality. Marketers call it the Chivas Regal effect.

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

This is one reason why libertarianism is a fantasy. It depends on the game theory fundamental of people as rational. It's the counterpart to communists dismissing greed.

Your example above is one of many that demonstrate that people actually aren't rational in many cases. We are influenced by appeals to emotion by marketers, etc.

468 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:45:34pm

re: #464 JasonA

I suppose someone had to be...

/

SMACK!

469 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:45:51pm

re: #458 calochortus

No, Alouette kept on talking about Gulch, got Colorado on the brain.

470 celticdragon  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:45:53pm

re: #24 Aceofwhat?

i really don't want to watch the video...is she a true post-op transgender or is it a man who aspires to become anatomically female?

A person who lives and presents in the opposite gender prior to surgery (and there is no real effective surgery for female to male, while some other people can never have surgery because of health risks)) should still be addressed in their gender of presentation. Whether or not she is pre op or post op is not really relevant.

This is another example of why I advocate for GLBT people arming themselves.

In my case, I am not a small person (*sigh* I would rather be 5'6"...but I am not) and I am ex army. Even with the injuries I have, anybody trying to it me in that way would find themselves exiting the restaurant through the nearest window.

471 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:46:54pm

re: #469 unwashed masses

No, Alouette kept on talking about Gulch, got Colorado on the brain.

Just curious- M.S. in Geology, class of way too many years ago...

472 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:46:54pm

re: #457 jamesfirecat
The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer at a staggering rate. Once upon a time, the United States had the largest and most prosperous middle class in the history of the world, but now that is changing at a blinding pace.

Because the poor and middle class vote for the same politicians who cater to the moneyed interests. When you vote for the politician who promises to steal for you, you are also voting for the same politician promises other constituents to steal from you. You'll always wind up on the short end of the moneyed interests.

473 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:47:32pm

re: #466 jamesfirecat

While I can agree with you in part there Dark, another part of me has to say that in theory college is more than just about the education it should be (it isn't always but it should be) also about going some place where you are exposed to a more dramatically varying group of people than you'd ever likely meet in your high school and thus it broadens your range of empty to all the different kinds of people who make up this world.

That's why I can't stand colleges like Liberty University, not only do they fail at giving good educations much of the time, they also seem bound to fail at providing students with a properly wide spread sampling of humanity to interact with...

That's nice in theory, but most people don't actually think about such things in ways that aren't approved by someone else. Better just focus on the job needs, and ignore the rest.

474 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:47:45pm

re: #472 unwashed masses

The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer at a staggering rate. Once upon a time, the United States had the largest and most prosperous middle class in the history of the world, but now that is changing at a blinding pace.

Because the poor and middle class vote for the same politicians who cater to the moneyed interests. When you vote for the politician who promises to steal for you, you are also voting for the same politician promises other constituents to steal from you. You'll always wind up on the short end of the moneyed interests.

No you don't.

Democrats want to raise taxes on the rich, Republicans don't.

There's a clear divide here.

475 Kruk  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:47:59pm

re: #48 abbyadams

As someone who wouldn't ever have been able to afford college without grants and loans, I agree.

Amen.I would estimate the New Zealander taxpayer has invested a cool quarter million in my university education alone. I come from a solidly middle class family, but there's no way my parents could have paid for it up front. Over the next thirty to forty years though, the taxpayer stands to get that back several times over in taxes and the services I provide as a health professional. Meanwhile, I earn a much better than average salary for doing work I love. It's all part of the social contract, and it benefits both sides.

476 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:48:40pm

You know what, I'm calling shenanigans on our little Paultard. It's too dumb to be true, IYKWIM.

477 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:48:59pm

re: #467 prononymous

Sure, pure anything is fantasy. But at least trying to follow a philosophy is better than just going with whatever gets the most votes.

478 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:49:07pm

re: #462 calochortus

See also: ERA will mandate single sex bathrooms... This is a long standing worry for some.

I look at it this way. If a non-transgendered dude *really* wants to sneak into the Ladies' Room to watch me for a few seconds while I wash my hands or fix my hair or touch up makeup or chat a bit or whatever, uh, I'm not really sure what to say. Just about anything creepy or wrong a guy could do to me in there would be creepy or wrong for a random woman to do to me, as well.

479 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:49:43pm

re: #476 Alouette

You know what, I'm calling shenanigans on our little Paultard. It's too dumb to be true, IYKWIM.

Are you referring to 'unwashedmasses'?

480 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:50:45pm

re: #472 unwashed masses

And you know what? Voting for Ron Paul doesn't change any of that, nor does supporting his ideas.

Libertarianism is a fantasy that will never, ever work in practice.

481 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:51:35pm

re: #480 Lidane

And you know what? Voting for Ron Paul doesn't change any of that, nor does supporting his ideas.

Libertarianism is a fantasy that will never, ever work in practice.

libertarianism = armed anarchy.

482 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:52:22pm

re: #474 jamesfirecat

Sure, raise taxes like Ike. But if spending is not reined in, raising taxes just treats the symptom not the problem.

483 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:53:06pm

re: #477 unwashed masses

Sure, pure anything is fantasy. But at least trying to follow a philosophy is better than just going with whatever gets the most votes.

Blabbing about nice sounding philosophy even if it has no connection to reality IS WHAT GETS THE MOST VOTES.

484 calochortus  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:53:06pm

re: #482 unwashed masses

I think this is where I came in. Time to go do something outside.

485 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:53:12pm

re: #477 unwashed masses

Sure, pure anything is fantasy. But at least trying to follow a philosophy is better than just going with whatever gets the most votes.

Yeah lets stick with what we know won't work, it's not like refusal to plan for reality so that one can maintain true to their ideological roots has ever caused problems before!

486 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:53:23pm

re: #470 celticdragon

A person who lives and presents in the opposite gender prior to surgery (and there is no real effective surgery for female to male, while some other people can never have surgery because of health risks)) should still be addressed in their gender of presentation. Whether or not she is pre op or post op is not really relevant.

This is another example of why I advocate for GLBT people arming themselves.

In my case, I am not a small person (*sigh* I would rather be 5'6"...but I am not) and I am ex army. Even with the injuries I have, anybody trying to it me in that way would find themselves exiting the restaurant through the nearest window.

Of course, the worst is when people insist that all that matters are your chromosomes. Besides being very narrow minded, that view also ignores people with non-standard sex chromosomes or who, for one reason or another, develop the opposite of what they would indicate. And then you have intersex and the like...

487 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:53:27pm

re: #460 Dark_Falcon

I understand, but its true. If it were better understood that college isn't for everyone, then people might get training programs that would prepare them for work at a lower cost.

At the very least, higher education of some sort (college, vo/tech training, apprenticeships in the trades) should all be made more accessible to those who want it (and people need to know their options).

Let's face it...for better or worse, the days of making a good career with a high school diploma/GED or less are fast coming to an end, if they haven't ended before now. Higher education, of almost any kind, needs to be made and kept widely available, because knowledge is power (hence the TPGOP attacks on education, because it's easier to cow and fearmonger an uneducated public).

488 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:53:37pm

re: #482 unwashed masses

Sure, raise taxes like Ike. But if spending is not reined in, raising taxes just treats the symptom not the problem.

What is the problem in your eyes exactly then?

489 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:53:58pm

re: #480 Lidane

What will change it then?

Kennedy tax cuts were pretty drastic. What it did was free capital for investment and production. Another stimulus was the space program that gave birth to NASA. That gave birth to supply-side economics. Reagan had the same results by cutting taxes and increasing spending. But here's the catch. Government debt has been accumulating since WWII to the point where the US went from the world's major creditor to the word's major debtor - about half of the world's debt is American.

By the time Obama became president, this country was saturated with debt to the max. So now what worked under Kennedy, Reagan and Bush has the opposite effect of reducing economic output. Debt is like a drug. At first it feels good. With repeated doses, it takes more to achieve the same effect. If you don't stop it will kill you. The withdrawal is going to hurt bad. Real bad.

490 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:54:20pm

re: #483 prononymous

Blabbing about nice sounding philosophy even if it has no connection to reality IS WHAT GETS THE MOST VOTES.

That is true.

491 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:54:52pm

re: #488 jamesfirecat

Too much spending

492 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:55:10pm

re: #491 unwashed masses

Too much spending

Sorry, you can't qualify too much spending on what?

493 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:55:20pm

re: #491 unwashed masses

Too much spending

Relative to what, and on what?

The military?

494 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:55:32pm

re: #489 unwashed masses

What will change it then?

Whatever is the direct opposite of Ron Paul's ideas. Or Ayn Rand's. Or anything from the Mises Institute. None of them are based in reality, nor do they have any comprehension of how the world actually works these days.

495 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:56:09pm

re: #491 unwashed masses

Too much spending

Agreed. But the Rand Paul plan won't work. It's too much all at once. Paul Ryan is right about that: We have to step down more gradually than that.

496 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:57:12pm

re: #489 unwashed masses

What will change it then?

Kennedy tax cuts were pretty drastic. What it did was free capital for investment and production. Another stimulus was the space program that gave birth to NASA. That gave birth to supply-side economics. Reagan had the same results by cutting taxes and increasing spending. But here's the catch. Government debt has been accumulating since WWII to the point where the US went from the world's major creditor to the word's major debtor - about half of the world's debt is American.

By the time Obama became president, this country was saturated with debt to the max. So now what worked under Kennedy, Reagan and Bush has the opposite effect of reducing economic output. Debt is like a drug. At first it feels good. With repeated doses, it takes more to achieve the same effect. If you don't stop it will kill you. The withdrawal is going to hurt bad. Real bad.

i take it then that you agree that tax rates need to returned to a more progressive level that also raises revenues significantly, as in the rates under clinton, which clearly did not make it impossible to have a very dynamic economy

497 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:57:38pm

re: #459 Simply Sarah

OK, coming in insanely late here, but I can't really let this go. I think that you are, without any ill intentions, taking a vastly oversimplified view of this sort of thing. What you're basically saying is that a MTF transsexual should never go out in public presenting as a female until she has had genital surgery, since there's always a chance she might need to use a public restroom and then we have a problem. You say she shouldn't use the Women's Room, since, to you, she's 'not yet a woman', but what do you think would happen if she tried to use the Men's Room? That just seems like a recipe for confusion and potential mistreatment.

Even worse would be FTMs. As stated previously, there really isn't a truly equivalent surgery for them and many don't do all of what *is* available. Should they, therefore, always use the Women's Room in public? I'm sure I don't need to spell out how bad an idea that would be.

And what about manly women and feminine men? Should the police be called on a butch lesbian trying to use the women's bathroom, since some other women might think she looks like a guy (Which a friend on mine said she saw happen before)?

If I seem a bit perturbed at all this, it's because the whole bathroom issue is a favorite talking point of bigots in trying to hold back transgendered rights. For example, here in Massachusetts there has been talk in recent years about a bill to protect transgendered individuals from discrimination (Like is done for race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc.) that has failed to pass. Last year, the main line of attack for opponents was to refer to it as a "bathroom bill" that would allow perverts to go into women's restrooms and do god knows what, as long as they claimed to be transgendered. That's a joke and it's not what will happen (You'd hear stories about it from the dozen or so states that already had similar laws if it did, for one).

Updinged for a nice, rational, well-argued point of view that avoided getting personal on such a sensitive issue. Nicely done!

I do not hold my point of view strongly. I do, however, maintain that it is a sticky issue and that it is not insensitive of a woman to ask for a fairly high standard before a person of male anatomy is permitted to share the bathroom with her.

I admit that i am unfamiliar with current legislation on the topic, controversial or not, although the current state of legislation wasn't really the point of my comment. I think i'd be satisfied to hear that transgendered types understood this concern and were sensitive to it. Too often, i hear how such concerns are insensitive. That's the bullshit part.

The reason i'm not addressing the converse (women->men transgendered) is because...well...i assume that no one in their right mind would choose the men's bathroom unless they really, really saw themselves as a man. We're gross;)

498 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:58:06pm

re: #495 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. But the Rand Paul plan won't work. It's too much all at once. Paul Ryan is right about that: We have to step down more gradually than that.

Which is great - but his numbers don't come anywhere near adding up in this or any other reality.

499 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:58:08pm

re: #483 prononymous

"Blabbing about nice sounding philosophy even if it has no connection to reality IS WHAT GETS THE MOST VOTES."
Sure, that's why RP sailed to victory. Or maybe that's not what he's doing?

re: #493 wozzablog

Military, and entitlements.

500 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:58:55pm

re: #498 wozzablog

Which is great - but his numbers don't come anywhere near adding up in this or any other reality.

Especially since he plans for 2.8% unemployment. ROFL.

501 celticdragon  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:59:12pm

re: #188 MarkAM

It's not nearly so cut-and-dried (hormones, mastectomies, breast implants, just for starters,) and there's no reason why it should be, outside of protecting certain sensibilities. . .not unlike the way most people thought about gay couples holding hands in public not long ago. Being transgendered is extremely tough, and it behooves intelligent people to try and see things from their perspective.

Thank you.

502 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:59:14pm

re: #493 wozzablog

Military, and entitlements.

Gotta cut back on them unemployed people splashing all that cash on cadillacs?

503 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:59:22pm

re: #494 Lidane

Whatever is the direct opposite of Ron Paul's ideas. Or Ayn Rand's. Or anything from the Mises Institute. None of them are based in reality, nor do they have any comprehension of how the world actually works these days.

Umm... Lindane, this is the direct opposite of Ron Paul and Ayn Rand's ideas....

I'm all for a sane position in the middle personally.

(Sorry on a Bioshock kick at the moment)

504 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:59:32pm

re: #494 Lidane

OK, who comes closest to embodying this?

505 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 3:59:46pm

re: #495 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. But the Rand Paul plan won't work. It's too much all at once. Paul Ryan is right about that: We have to step down more gradually than that.

I put it to you Dark... what are we spending too much on?

506 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:00:12pm

re: #502 wozzablog

Military, and entitlements.

Gotta cut back on them unemployed people splashing all that cash on cadillacs?

Nobody said that.

507 Mocking Jay  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:00:30pm

re: #497 Aceofwhat?


The reason i'm not addressing the converse (women->men transgendered) is because...well...i assume that no one in their right mind would choose the men's bathroom unless they really, really saw themselves as a man. We're gross;)

Yeah, ladies. Just look at how gross we are outside of the bathroom and imagine what it's like when we're stripped of civility.

The horror...
The horror...

508 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:00:32pm

re: #478 Simply Sarah

I look at it this way. If a non-transgendered dude *really* wants to sneak into the Ladies' Room to watch me for a few seconds while I wash my hands or fix my hair or touch up makeup or chat a bit or whatever, uh, I'm not really sure what to say. Just about anything creepy or wrong a guy could do to me in there would be creepy or wrong for a random woman to do to me, as well.

My wife feels differently, and it is not insensitive of her to ask that there be some logical method to sort the creeps from the TG's. As i said above, i am skeptical that asking someone to use a restroom based on their...*cough*...equipment is somehow a denial of their rights.

509 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:00:38pm

re: #505 jamesfirecat

I put it to you Dark... what are we spending too much on?

I can't answer, because I have to leave. Back later.

510 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:00:55pm

re: #499 unwashed masses

"Blabbing about nice sounding philosophy even if it has no connection to reality IS WHAT GETS THE MOST VOTES."
Sure, that's why RP sailed to victory. Or maybe that's not what he's doing?

re: #493 wozzablog

Military, and entitlements.

How did you come to the conclusions that we are spending too much on these things?

511 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:01:07pm

re: #499 unwashed masses

Sure, that's why RP sailed to victory. Or maybe that's not what he's doing?

The other nice sounding philosophies sounded nicer.

512 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:01:24pm

re: #503 jamesfirecat

Umm... Lindane, this is the direct opposite of Ron Paul and Ayn Rand's ideas...

I'm all for a sane position in the middle personally.

(Sorry on a Bioshock kick at the moment)

Nothing wrong with being on a Bioshock kick. Hehe.

The point is, libertarianism is bullshit. It doesn't work in practice and is based on a fantasy.

513 celticdragon  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:01:37pm

Have a lovely and Blessed Easter, my scaly friends. BBL.

514 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:02:08pm

re: #506 Dark_Falcon

Nobody said that.

It's the vacuum created by blanket statements like "entitlements" that leave one to wonder where this magic saving s to come from - specifics don't get derision from me.

I fully accept there are savings to be made and smarter money to be spent - i'd just like to hear where other people think it has to come from.

515 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:02:12pm

re: #499 unwashed masses

Military, and entitlements.

Except the entitlement you mentioned, national health care, would reduce health care costs for everyone. It's an economically sound move.

516 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:02:26pm

re: #507 JasonA

Yeah, ladies. Just look at how gross we are outside of the bathroom and imagine what it's like when we're stripped of civility.

The horror...
The horror...

Occasionally at the airport i use the stall...because i wish to avoid the puddle under the urinal.

I bet we could make the men's bathroom 'unisex' and it'd still be 99.3% male.

517 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:04:01pm

re: #515 prononymous

Except the entitlement you mentioned, national health care, would reduce health care costs for everyone. It's an economically sound move.

30% off the top on admin - before over prescribing and drug negotiations were confronted.

518 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:06:42pm

Also, a very relevant graph: Image: Life_expectancy_vs_spending_OECD.png

I expect you know how to spot an outlier.

519 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:06:50pm

re: #332 goddamnedfrank

They get what they pay for in terms of services. I hear very little truth from you about that.

Then let me correct it, albeit a little late since i logged out abruptly earlier to avoid breaking a promise to play with my kids before dinner.

Europe (in general terms) absolutely does get what they pay for in terms of services. I loved living there and i'd live there again if the job offer were right. Their system is not worse on some majestic scale, simply different, with different strengths and weaknesses. When i contrast them to our system on other threads at other times, it is to clarify what i prefer about our system rather than to say that Europe sucks.

Hope that helps.

520 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:07:52pm

re: #515 prononymous

Except the entitlement you mentioned, national health care, would reduce health care costs for everyone. It's an economically sound move.

it depends on how it's done, doesn't it? for example, the Singapore model seems pretty robust.

521 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:07:53pm

re: #510 jamesfirecat

"Still, the $720 billion defense budget is a very large share of federal discretionary spending - more than half in 2010."

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

See chart:
[Link: www.economist.com...]

522 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:09:00pm

re: #482 unwashed masses

Sure, raise taxes like Ike. But if spending is not reined in, raising taxes just treats the symptom not the problem.

It will only be an anarchy for a short time till the strongest so-called libertarian sets himself up as king.

523 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:09:28pm

re: #521 unwashed masses

"Still, the $720 billion defense budget is a very large share of federal discretionary spending - more than half in 2010."

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

See chart:
[Link: www.economist.com...]

No.

I want to hear it in your own words.

How do you know that we are spending too much in these areas?

You can copy and paste the important parts from those pieces if you want but I want to see actual hard answers not a scavenger hunt...

524 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:09:29pm

re: #497 Aceofwhat?

Updinged for a nice, rational, well-argued point of view that avoided getting personal on such a sensitive issue. Nicely done!

I do not hold my point of view strongly. I do, however, maintain that it is a sticky issue and that it is not insensitive of a woman to ask for a fairly high standard before a person of male anatomy is permitted to share the bathroom with her.

I admit that i am unfamiliar with current legislation on the topic, controversial or not, although the current state of legislation wasn't really the point of my comment. I think i'd be satisfied to hear that transgendered types understood this concern and were sensitive to it. Too often, i hear how such concerns are insensitive. That's the bullshit part.

The reason i'm not addressing the converse (women->men transgendered) is because...well...i assume that no one in their right mind would choose the men's bathroom unless they really, really saw themselves as a man. We're gross;)

I agree that it's a bit of a messy situation and that no woman wants a guy trying to sneak into the restroom with her. That being said, trying to judge based on "equipment" runs into another issue. There are some pre-ops and non-ops MTFs that no one would ever in a million years think were male, short of yanking off all of their clothing. On the other hand, some post-ops can be, well, still pretty manly acting and looking, depending on how they looked to start with and how much other work they've had. The former group would likely not cause any fuss in a ladies' room, despite still having man parts, while the latter, who don't, would probably get some looks, at least.

What does that mean? Well, I do think that there is some level of responsibility on the person to try and fit in to *some* degree, since that will help him or her better fit in with the world around them. On the other hand, I think people need to try and understand that, for some people, being transsexual or some other form of transgendered is just their reality. It may not always be comfortable, granted, but people are often doing the best they can.

525 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:10:24pm

re: #522 wlewisiii

It will only be an anarchy for a short time till the strongest so-called libertarian sets himself up as king.

Huh? I was not replying to this message but to number 481.

526 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:12:41pm

re: #520 Aceofwhat?

it depends on how it's done, doesn't it? for example, the Singapore model seems pretty robust.

Sure, but it is very different than ours. Details and implementation matter more than broad ideological "socialism bad", "capitalism bad", or whatever.

527 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:13:01pm

re: #491 unwashed masses

Too much spending

too much spending is also a symptom and not "the real problem"

528 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:13:10pm

re: #521 unwashed masses

"Still, the $720 billion defense budget is a very large share of federal discretionary spending - more than half in 2010."

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

See chart:
[Link: www.economist.com...]

Also let me put it another way...

So far you've only proven that we're spending a lot in these areas.

Do you have any proof that we aren't getting our moneys worth in these areas and thus should decrease spending in them rather than trying to raise revnue to avoid going into debt?

529 Lidane  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:13:36pm

Back later. My latest audiobook is getting interesting.

Have fun, Lizards!

530 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:13:54pm

re: #515 prononymous

Obama's healthcare program sucks. Like all the others except for Kucinich, he's afraid of the insurance companies and won't support single payer. As long as 30% of costs go to the bureaucratic administrative costs of private insurance, a plan that doesn't cut the insurance companies out is going to be far more expensive than necessary.

531 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:15:40pm

re: #530 unwashed masses

Obama's healthcare program sucks. Like all the others except for Kucinich, he's afraid of the insurance companies and won't support single payer. As long as 30% of costs go to the bureaucratic administrative costs of private insurance, a plan that doesn't cut the insurance companies out is going to be far more expensive than necessary.

Whoa, are you a libertarian who supports single payer nationalised health insurance? My opinion of you just might have gone up a whole lot. How do you reconcile that with hatred of 'the collectivists'?

532 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:16:08pm

re: #530 unwashed masses

I agree. Single payer should have never been taken off the table. But the spineless democrats did it before the debate even really started.

533 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:16:21pm

re: #530 unwashed masses

Obama's healthcare program sucks. Like all the others except for Kucinich, he's afraid of the insurance companies and won't support single payer. As long as 30% of costs go to the bureaucratic administrative costs of private insurance, a plan that doesn't cut the insurance companies out is going to be far more expensive than necessary.

Blame it on the GOP who fought against a public option not Obama who campaigned on promising it to America.

534 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:16:53pm

re: #531 Renaissance_Man

Considering how he is talking he is either a) a troll, or b) an over-entitled rich kid. And this is coming from someone under the drinking age.

535 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:17:10pm

re: #524 Simply Sarah

I agree that it's a bit of a messy situation and that no woman wants a guy trying to sneak into the restroom with her. That being said, trying to judge based on "equipment" runs into another issue. There are some pre-ops and non-ops MTFs that no one would ever in a million years think were male, short of yanking off all of their clothing. On the other hand, some post-ops can be, well, still pretty manly acting and looking, depending on how they looked to start with and how much other work they've had. The former group would likely not cause any fuss in a ladies' room, despite still having man parts, while the latter, who don't, would probably get some looks, at least.

What does that mean? Well, I do think that there is some level of responsibility on the person to try and fit in to *some* degree, since that will help him or her better fit in with the world around them. On the other hand, I think people need to try and understand that, for some people, being transsexual or some other form of transgendered is just their reality. It may not always be comfortable, granted, but people are often doing the best they can.

Sounds great. And in no case would i ever advocate actually verifying these things..."show me your junk" sounds like the worst solution that could possibly arise. If a TG doesn't look male, she's not going to have trouble. It's the TG who both looks male and is anatomically male who should be sensitive to the fact that fighting for access to the ladies' room is, at best, a puzzling maneuver in the battle for equality.

A cup of sensitivity all around, and we'll all be a little better for it-

536 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:17:11pm

re: #532 prononymous

I agree. Single payer should have never been taken off the table. But the spineless democrats did it before the debate even really started.

It was never on the table in the first place for it to be taken off.

537 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:18:53pm

re: #526 prononymous

Sure, but it is very different than ours. Details and implementation matter more than broad ideological "socialism bad", "capitalism bad", or whatever.

yes, certainly. i was fishing for agreement on my belief that "universal health insurance" is not automatically better than alternative X regardless of implementation. if you'd said as much earlier, i apologize.

538 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:19:10pm

re: #533 jamesfirecat
Obama is implicated as well for bowing to the GOP. Why should he? They'll never like him no matter what.

539 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:19:43pm

re: #537 Aceofwhat?

yes, certainly. i was fishing for agreement on my belief that "universal health insurance" is not automatically better than alternative X regardless of implementation. if you'd said as much earlier, i apologize.

Exhaustive and uniquely fair minded.
[Link: www.economist.com...]

540 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:20:04pm

re: #531 Renaissance_Man

Whoa, are you a libertarian who supports single payer nationalised health insurance? My opinion of you just might have gone up a whole lot. How do you reconcile that with hatred of 'the collectivists'?

my guess: poorly.

541 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:20:34pm

re: #534 ProLifeLiberal

Considering how he is talking he is either a) a troll, or b) an over-entitled rich kid. And this is coming from someone under the drinking age.

Yeah, libertarianism is basically how we all thought in the sixth grade converted into an adult political theory (I for one think America is an amazing and wonderful country, where every last person is so valuable that even if your political opinions are completely juvenile you still get to have them taken seriously by grownups), but I'm really curious as to how a Paulian manages to reconcile support for universal health care with the fantasy of libertarianism.

542 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:20:54pm

re: #538 unwashed masses

Obama is implicated as well for bowing to the GOP. Why should he? They'll never like him no matter what.

To be fair, one way or another Obama had no vote in what happened beyond to veto or not to veto.

Thus at the end of the day the blame must more fully lay on the Senate Democrats.

But of course I refuse to let perfect be enemy of the good which is why I still support them.

543 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:21:51pm

re: #527 engineer dog

too much spending is also a symptom and not "the real problem"

here, let me explain what i mean

let's say the cost of lunch in the year one is $2.00. a rich man and a poor man can both afford to eat lunch. they both need lunch. lunch is a need

now let's say that in the year 10, the cost of lunch has gone up to $10.00, while at the same time the poor man has lost the job he had before and has had to take another job that pays less. he still needs to eat lunch, but now he has to borrow money to pay for it

his problem is not "too much spending"

costs continue to rise faster than incomes. at the same time, there is pressure for the government to collect less in revenues. needs - let me repeat that - needs - remain the same

the root of the problem is that we have a mismatch between costs and revenues for the things that we need

we should be arguing about what we need, not assuming that we should cut back on spending as the root issue

544 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:22:27pm

re: #541 Renaissance_Man

Yeah, libertarianism is basically how we all thought in the sixth grade converted into an adult political theory (I for one think America is an amazing and wonderful country, where every last person is so valuable that even if your political opinions are completely juvenile you still get to have them taken seriously by grownups), but I'm really curious as to how a Paulian manages to reconcile support for universal health care with the fantasy of libertarianism.

Well it says right there in the constitution "General welfare" doesn't it.

After all I've yet to meat a Paulian whose said we need to disband the army and let the free market provide the men to fight fight Americas wars and defend her against forign enemies....

545 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:22:30pm

re: #539 wozzablog

Exhaustive and uniquely fair minded.
[Link: www.economist.com...]

yes. that article was the shizniggity.

546 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:25:06pm

re: #508 Aceofwhat?

My wife feels differently, and it is not insensitive of her to ask that there be some logical method to sort the creeps from the TG's. As i said above, i am skeptical that asking someone to use a restroom based on their...*cough*...equipment is somehow a denial of their rights.

Well, I think my response at 524 somewhat addresses this. I do, for sure, understand your wife's feelings and why she would have them.

That being said, I look at it this way. A guy sneaking into the ladies' room for some nefarious purpose is, in general, already something that is going to be illegal (The nefarious act, if not the sneaking into the bathroom). If they are convincing, no one will be the wiser to start with. So that basically leaves guys that are willing to badly dress up as women to go into our restrooms for some evil plot.

But here's the thing how will I know for sure either way? That is, telling the legitimate transgendered women to stay out of the ladies' room while they still have the man parts will, perhaps, keep them from doing so, since we can assume they're otherwise upright citizens. But do you really think that's going to stop the perverts trying to sneak in? Why would they care, since they're already trying to be dishonest anyway?

So how do we stop them? Do we kick out anyone we think looks like they might be a guy? Do we make them disrobe so we can check their equipment? I mean, that seems to be the only way to figure out which ones are perverted men and which are post-op MTFs or just manly women. This does not seem like a viable solution to me. And I'm not convinced there's a real problem that needs solving, anyway. If we start having a rash of dudes in drag sneaking into women's bathrooms, then maybe that can be rethought.

547 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:25:23pm

re: #537 Aceofwhat?

yes, certainly. i was fishing for agreement on my belief that "universal health insurance" is not automatically better than alternative X regardless of implementation. if you'd said as much earlier, i apologize.

I said something similar earlier about your question of successful communist governments.

Essentially, I'm not a huge fan of ideologically driven systems. Details and implementation matter. I apply that to just about all aspects of government, including its form.

548 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:25:58pm

re: #544 jamesfirecat

Army is in the constitution

[Link: www.usconstitution.net...]

549 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:27:20pm

re: #548 unwashed masses

Army is in the constitution

[Link: www.usconstitution.net...]

"Armies" plural are, but as and when required. That doesn't read like a standing army.

The navy gets the thumbs up though.

550 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:27:26pm

Off topic, but have hope for the Al-Jazeera Live Blog Comments. A Wahabi came in and started ranting about how the Magic Kingdom is perfect, (west is evil, sex in public, usual fanatic bullcrap). And then everyone and their uncle piled on the clown, attacking him a fanatic, a liar, an idiot, or in one case, a cat-f***er.

551 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:28:57pm

re: #548 unwashed masses

Army is in the constitution

[Link: www.usconstitution.net...]

I was being sarcastic. But to get back to our main point, do you have any proof that we "spend too much" on military and entitlements and that our money is inefficiently spent in those areas?

Because if you don't then I you've only proven we spend more than we have not that we spend "too much" as raising taxes can fix the lack of revenue problem.

So do you have any proof that those two areas aren't worth the money we spend on them?

552 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:29:18pm

re: #549 wozzablog

"Armies" plural are, but as and when required. That doesn't read like a standing army.

The navy gets the thumbs up though.

//Don't even get me started on the marines and air force...

553 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:29:44pm

re: #535 Aceofwhat?

Sounds great. And in no case would i ever advocate actually verifying these things..."show me your junk" sounds like the worst solution that could possibly arise. If a TG doesn't look male, she's not going to have trouble. It's the TG who both looks male and is anatomically male who should be sensitive to the fact that fighting for access to the ladies' room is, at best, a puzzling maneuver in the battle for equality.

A cup of sensitivity all around, and we'll all be a little better for it-

Sensitivity I can agree with. It's the idea of essentially banning them that bothers me.

554 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:29:45pm

re: #547 prononymous

I said something similar earlier about your question of successful communist governments.

Essentially, I'm not a huge fan of ideologically driven systems. Details and implementation matter. I apply that to just about all aspects of government, including its form.

Oh, thanks. Again, i wasn't trying to draw some seekrit parallel between the general left here in the US and evil commie fluoridation or some such. I wanted to demonstrate that some of us (that excludes you, Paulian) use the 'get the government out of the way' phrase in a sensible manner, not as code for 'less gubmint is always better'. So first i wanted to make sure that the audience at least agreed that more government is not always better, and simply reached for communism as an example.

But yes - ideologically driven public systems, be they theocracies or fascism or communism or Paulianism or anarchism [heh]...no good.

555 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:29:54pm

re: #548 unwashed masses

Army is in the constitution

[Link: www.usconstitution.net...]

but what is an army? at the time the constitution was written, it was assumed that a large "standing" army such as the one we maintain now, was dangerous, and until the 20th century we routinely drew down military forces radically when wars were over

556 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:31:32pm

re: #555 engineer dog

but what is an army? at the time the constitution was written, it was assumed that a large "standing" army such as the one we maintain now, was dangerous, and until the 20th century we routinely drew down military forces radically when wars were over

//That's the wonderful thing about nation building, the war is never over!

557 Jan Smiddy  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:34:03pm

Every time I encounter a poli-cretin like Casawell I think back to all of those kids that hid on the sidelines and tried to avoid getting bullied or beaten...

And I have to think: was this guy the little fearful one or the spiteful creepy bastid who stalked and terrorized him.

Both pathologies could lead to monsterism as evidenced by these self aggrandizing fiends of zero empathy.

Any shrinks want to chime in?

558 unwashed masses  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:34:38pm

re: #556 jamesfirecat

Yeah the military industrial complex has been a problem for a while

559 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:35:12pm

re: #553 Simply Sarah

Sensitivity I can agree with. It's the idea of essentially banning them that bothers me.

I understand. My question is more of a "why do we have to go that far" sort of thing. Why can't a pre-op TG who appears quite male look in the mirror and say "aw, who the hell cares which bathroom i use, i might as well pick the one that doesn't make a ton of people uncomfortable"?

I'm uncomfortable saying something as common-sense as "if you look like a dude and you are physically a dude, then pee in the dudes' room and get over it" = banning. I mean, i'm very open to nice people everywhere, such as yourself, feeling differently than i do on the subject...but 'banning' is a loaded word. It's not banning...it's common sense, isn't it?

560 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:36:17pm

re: #559 Aceofwhat?

I understand. My question is more of a "why do we have to go that far" sort of thing. Why can't a pre-op TG who appears quite male look in the mirror and say "aw, who the hell cares which bathroom i use, i might as well pick the one that doesn't make a ton of people uncomfortable"?

I'm uncomfortable saying something as common-sense as "if you look like a dude and you are physically a dude, then pee in the dudes' room and get over it" = banning. I mean, i'm very open to nice people everywhere, such as yourself, feeling differently than i do on the subject...but 'banning' is a loaded word. It's not banning...it's common sense, isn't it?

I just say f*** it we're going to unisex stalls everywhere, problem solved!

561 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:37:01pm

re: #560 jamesfirecat

I just say f*** it we're going to unisex stalls everywhere, problem solved!

And by "we're going to unisex stalls everywhere" I mean that buildings will no longer have male or female restrooms but instead only unisex stalls.

The "we're" refers to the people who create/design the buildings not transgendered individuals...

562 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:37:39pm

re: #560 jamesfirecat

I just say f*** it we're going to unisex stalls everywhere, problem solved!

Heh, the men's bathroom would look exactly the same except for that rare occasion when the women's line is so damn long that someone is forced to run to the other side for a free stall/

563 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:40:25pm

re: #559 Aceofwhat?

I understand. My question is more of a "why do we have to go that far" sort of thing. Why can't a pre-op TG who appears quite male look in the mirror and say "aw, who the hell cares which bathroom i use, i might as well pick the one that doesn't make a ton of people uncomfortable"?

I'm uncomfortable saying something as common-sense as "if you look like a dude and you are physically a dude, then pee in the dudes' room and get over it" = banning. I mean, i'm very open to nice people everywhere, such as yourself, feeling differently than i do on the subject...but 'banning' is a loaded word. It's not banning...it's common sense, isn't it?

I suppose that, to me, the focus on the current state of her genitals is confusing. I tend to think she'd get the same reaction from people whether she still has a penis or not. Like, if the way she looks makes me uncomfortable to start with, I'm going to still be uncomfortable if she has a hole down there. The only way the status of that would seem to matter, for the purposes of comfort, would be if you indeed were going to start checking. Otherwise, it's basically the honor system and you fall back to that only keeping honest people "honest". And I still think that walking into a men's room in a dress, especially looking manly, is probably asking for trouble.

564 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:46:48pm

re: #563 Simply Sarah

I suppose that, to me, the focus on the current state of her genitals is confusing. I tend to think she'd get the same reaction from people whether she still has a penis or not. Like, if the way she looks makes me uncomfortable to start with, I'm going to still be uncomfortable if she has a hole down there. The only way the status of that would seem to matter, for the purposes of comfort, would be if you indeed were going to start checking. Otherwise, it's basically the honor system and you fall back to that only keeping honest people "honest". And I still think that walking into a men's room in a dress, especially looking manly, is probably asking for trouble.

Good stuff. And i may be overly focused on the genitals thing because i'm channeling my wife on some of this. In her words, "if she took the time and expense to have you-know-what converted, then i don't care if she looks like a Yeti, she deserves to share my bathroom, but asking a pre-op Yeti to pee with all of the other Yetis should be my prerogative".

Maybe there aren't a lot of other women who feel that way, so i may be unwittingly passing along a small minority opinion. To hear her say it, it's not an uncommon opinion among women, but again, i honestly wouldn't know for sure and don't want to pretend that i do!

565 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:54:18pm

re: #564 Aceofwhat?

Good stuff. And i may be overly focused on the genitals thing because i'm channeling my wife on some of this. In her words, "if she took the time and expense to have you-know-what converted, then i don't care if she looks like a Yeti, she deserves to share my bathroom, but asking a pre-op Yeti to pee with all of the other Yetis should be my prerogative".

Maybe there aren't a lot of other women who feel that way, so i may be unwittingly passing along a small minority opinion. To hear her say it, it's not an uncommon opinion among women, but again, i honestly wouldn't know for sure and don't want to pretend that i do!

Oh, I think it's a pretty common opinion among women (The other common one probably being that even post-ops shouldn't be allowed in), with me being one of the exceptions, not the rule. However, from a practical standpoint, I have trouble seeing how that could really be applied. Since there would be no way of knowing her situation without checking, it turns into having to either trust that they've gone through with it or denying entry to them even if they have (To avoid the risk that they haven't). The latter is just unfair and the former, again, will only stop those people that are thoughtful enough/willing to follow those rules, which would likely not include *any* males trying to sneak in.

All that being said, pre-ops should still try to follow general rules expected of a woman. No peeing while standing, for example...

566 jamesfirecat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:55:50pm

re: #565 Simply Sarah

Oh, I think it's a pretty common opinion among women (The other common one probably being that even post-ops shouldn't be allowed in), with me being one of the exceptions, not the rule. However, from a practical standpoint, I have trouble seeing how that could really be applied. Since there would be no way of knowing her situation without checking, it turns into having to either trust that they've gone through with it or denying entry to them even if they have (To avoid the risk that they haven't). The latter is just unfair and the former, again, will only stop those people that are thoughtful enough/willing to follow those rules, which would likely not include *any* males trying to sneak in.

All that being said, pre-ops should still try to follow general rules expected of a woman. No peeing while standing, for example...

///And heaven help you if you leave the seat up in the woman's bathroom.

567 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:56:15pm

re: #565 Simply Sarah

Nearly spat out my diet coke there. Hilarious. Let's end on that note, and thank you so much for the discussion. You're a gem.

568 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 4:58:27pm

re: #567 Aceofwhat?

Nearly spat out my diet coke there. Hilarious. Let's end on that note, and thank you so much for the discussion. You're a gem.

*grins*
I do my best. And it was nice discussing this with you, as well.

569 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:01:10pm

re: #566 jamesfirecat

///And heaven help you if you leave the seat up in the woman's bathroom.

"He left the seat up because he loves you. Women don't even understand that.
If the seat is up, it means I didn't pee on it. That's the best gift I can give you.
If the seat is up, it means it's safe for you to sit down. If you ever walk in the bathroom and the seat is down, don't you trust it! You might stick."

570 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:01:48pm

re: #554 Aceofwhat?

Oh, thanks. Again, i wasn't trying to draw some seekrit parallel between the general left here in the US and evil commie fluoridation or some such. I wanted to demonstrate that some of us (that excludes you, Paulian) use the 'get the government out of the way' phrase in a sensible manner, not as code for 'less gubmint is always better'. So first i wanted to make sure that the audience at least agreed that more government is not always better, and simply reached for communism as an example.

But yes - ideologically driven public systems, be they theocracies or fascism or communism or Paulianism or anarchism [heh]...no good.

Sorry for not responding sooner, I was tied up.

Maybe my point wasn't well stated. I think the details matter MORE than the overall system. I think that communism could work, like it is in China. Or that a kingdom could work if you have a benevolent philosopher king. Etc. I also see instances where democracy hasn't worked. I simply support democracy over the other systems because I feel that it will likely have the best outcome socially, given an intelligent populace.

571 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:03:17pm

re: #570 prononymous

Sorry for not responding sooner, I was tied up.

Maybe my point wasn't well stated. I think the details matter MORE than the overall system. I think that communism could work, like it is in China. Or that a kingdom could work if you have a benevolent philosopher king. Etc. I also see instances where democracy hasn't worked. I simply support democracy over the other systems because I feel that it will likely have the best outcome socially, given an intelligent populace.

Fair. I gently disagree about China...far too many human rights abuses to say that it's the system they'd choose for themselves if they were free to do so. And it becomes less and less communist every day, economically speaking. Marx would throw up in his mouth/

572 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:05:49pm

re: #571 Aceofwhat?

Fair. I gently disagree about China...far too many human rights abuses to say that it's the system they'd choose for themselves if they were free to do so. And it becomes less and less communist every day, economically speaking. Marx would throw up in his mouth/

But you have to admit that they are doing well economically. And that brings us back to the term success and how we are defining it.

I'd say that China moving away from pure ideology and subsequently becoming more successful, while still being communist, reinforces my point that the details matter.

573 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:07:42pm

Man I get so tired of straight people bitching about TG people

it just sorta puts me off my fucking lunch

Same fucking shit I hear everywhere

574 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:09:19pm

re: #573 WindUpBird

Man I get so tired of straight people bitching about TG people

it just sorta puts me off my fucking lunch

Same fucking shit I hear everywhere

Well, to be fair, I've seen my share of gays bitching about TG people, too. I don't care much for either group doing it.

575 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:10:15pm

re: #548 unwashed masses

man I love a libertarian

especially an out of touch libetarian one with a dried up meme for an avatar image with all the flavor chewed out of it

Maybe you should replace it with 'Mr. T Are My Balls'

or maybe one of those animated "under-construction" gifs from the Geocities days, because clearly your brain isn't done baking yet

576 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:18:43pm

re: #574 Simply Sarah

Well, to be fair, I've seen my share of gays bitching about TG people, too. I don't care much for either group doing it.

TG people are in my life every day, I know many many Tg people, and somehow! We never get fixated on bathrooms. Somehow it never comes up in the NW, ot at cons. Somehow we all get along, and nobody loses their mud, because we're civilized people who don't blow our lids over what equipment someone does or doesn't have in which bathroom

I used to work in health care, for 14 years, with disabled people

And in this job, I worked with people of the opposite sex who were disabled in myraid ways, who required assistance in bathrooms, public bathrooms, because that was the job

And the only time I ever got static about taking my client into the opposite sex bathroom, because you know, she had to go

it was some rube, some dumbass, some moron mouthbreather with no self awareness who wanted to pick a fight about it. Some entitled soccer mom, some jughead dad waiting outside. it was always those people. Almost ALWAYS with a kid. Because, you know, their kid is more important than my lady with cerebral palsy and limited communication skills who needs to go number two. Big fat guy: HEY THAT IS THE LADIESS BATHROOM! And I say, yep. Out of my way, she has to go.

So I just don't care. And I'm embarrassed for people who feel they have to have this dumb bathroom conversation over and over again. And anyone who whinges about this bathroom thing, I just can't deal. I find it to be an immature topic to be chewing over. Like asking whether black people all have bigger cocks. It's beneath me.

577 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:22:45pm

let me be the first to call for strict government regulation of people who think they are libertarians:

1. While that may be true, providing education, nutrition, health care, etc. also comes at someone else's expense. In this case it would be taxpayers would do not necessarily want their money to be spent on that cause. Each person's goal should be the fulfillment of their own happiness: no one (especially the government) should be able to make the judgmental call for someone else as to where their money should go. That's why private charity is so much more powerful.

2. It is not the government's place to involve itself in the private matters of corporations. The beauty of the free market is that after a while (when the need becomes great enough) a genius innovator will come along and change things. Rather than the government breaking up monopolies (and in a sense stealing from those who created the corporations), let the free market take care of it. It's more morally acceptable.

578 Simply Sarah  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:23:23pm

re: #576 WindUpBird

Well, I agree it's a generally silly topic and that it's often used as an excuse to justify bigotry (And it's a talking point that you need to be careful with, because trying to explain why it shouldn't be an issue in a way that would hopefully convince most people tends not to lend itself to soundbites). Here, however, I trust that anyone that cares enough will read all of what I have to say and that, perhaps, I can convince a few to change their minds or, at least, take another look at their preconceptions on the matter.

579 Amory Blaine  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:23:55pm

Maybe he has some pieces of flair in mind.

580 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:28:33pm

re: #576 WindUpBird

TG people are in my life every day, I know many many Tg people, and somehow! We never get fixated on bathrooms. Somehow it never comes up in the NW, ot at cons. Somehow we all get along, and nobody loses their mud, because we're civilized people who don't blow our lids over what equipment someone does or doesn't have in which bathroom

I used to work in health care, for 14 years, with disabled people

And in this job, I worked with people of the opposite sex who were disabled in myraid ways, who required assistance in bathrooms, public bathrooms, because that was the job

And the only time I ever got static about taking my client into the opposite sex bathroom, because you know, she had to go

it was some rube, some dumbass, some moron mouthbreather with no self awareness who wanted to pick a fight about it. Some entitled soccer mom, some jughead dad waiting outside. it was always those people. Almost ALWAYS with a kid. Because, you know, their kid is more important than my lady with cerebral palsy and limited communication skills who needs to go number two. Big fat guy: HEY THAT IS THE LADIESS BATHROOM! And I say, yep. Out of my way, she has to go.

So I just don't care. And I'm embarrassed for people who feel they have to have this dumb bathroom conversation over and over again. And anyone who whinges about this bathroom thing, I just can't deal. I find it to be an immature topic to be chewing over. Like asking whether black people all have bigger cocks. It's beneath me.

Good rant Windy.

Can you do me a favour and email me? I have some questions about your game artwork.

581 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:33:30pm

re: #580 b_sharp

how does I gets your emails?

582 prairiefire  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:49:02pm

re: #497 Aceofwhat?

Chaz Bono has complained loudly about the awful condition of men's bathrooms. I don't blame him.

583 sagehen  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 5:50:06pm

re: #576 WindUpBird

TG people are in my life every day, I know many many Tg people, and somehow! We never get fixated on bathrooms. Somehow it never comes up in the NW, ot at cons. Somehow we all get along, and nobody loses their mud, because we're civilized people who don't blow our lids over what equipment someone does or doesn't have in which bathroom

In NYC, the general consensus seems to be whatever gender somebody looks most like, from ten feet away in nightclub lighting... that's the bathroom they should use.

Unless one of the bathrooms is really crowded, in which case everybody of both all genders should use the other one.

584 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:07:11pm

re: #583 sagehen

In NYC, the general consensus seems to be whatever gender somebody looks most like, from ten feet away in nightclub lighting... that's the bathroom they should use.

Unless one of the bathrooms is really crowded, in which case everybody of both all genders should use the other one.

That seems fine to me

I just figure it's better to leave people alone while they poop!

585 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:08:32pm

re: #582 prairiefire

I LOVE THE NAME CHAZ

Though Chaz Bono needs more of a casual sport-coat look IMHO

586 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:22:34pm

re: #581 WindUpBird

how does I gets your emails?

Sorry, I forgot to take off the website.

Now try it.

587 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 6:38:02pm

re: #585 WindUpBird

I LOVE THE NAME CHAZ

Though Chaz Bono needs more of a casual sport-coat look IMHO

No disrespect to the former Chastity Bono, but when I hear the name "Chaz/s", I can't help but think of Will Ferrell in The Wedding Crashers...

;-P

588 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:05:21pm

re: #17 bratwurst

Limiting the maximum amount of salt in a serving of manufactured ketchup is an example of "big government", but telling foster parents where to shop for clothes isn't?!?!

Seriously.

Also, what about, like underwear, and socks, and shoes? "My twelve-year-old and I would like to look at some secondhand training bras, please..."

589 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 7:08:28pm

re: #37 Aceofwhat?

one believes that they need to make a personal contribution and the other believes that they need to make a contribution from someone else's pocket?

forgive me, but i see a gap there.

Hold it. Taxes are not 'someone else's pocket'. I pay mine, and have strong opinions about what the money should go for.

590 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 8:54:43pm

Nothing like a Paulian to bring out the comments.

591 mikec6666  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:22:25pm

I've never heard of anything quite like this. Pathetic.

592 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:29:40pm

re: #544 jamesfirecat

Well it says right there in the constitution "General welfare" doesn't it.

After all I've yet to meat a Paulian whose said we need to disband the army and let the free market provide the men to fight fight Americas wars and defend her against forign enemies...

I wonder though...is the USAF Constitutional?

593 Querent  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:35:11pm

re: #16 blueraven

Likewise, i am a longtime thriftstore patron. And believe it or don't, i can see a possible rationale for this:

If you give me 79$ and tell me to buy some nice clothes for the office, i can go to a boutique in the mall and come back with one outfit.

I can go to a place like Ross or Kohl's instead, and come back with two or three.

I can go to my local Saver's, however, and come out with at least five, and not only that, but they look like i've owned them for awhile and aren't so shinily obvious. (Best way to get Hawaiian shirts -- let the tourist who bought them over there take the depreciation.)

And yet, when i read the story in Chicken Soup for the Soul about the girl who started the project to provide foster kids with luggage after reading about one who was given a garbage bag to pack up his clothes in, i can really feel the slap in the face.

Good Intentions Asphalt Works -- paving the Road to Hell...

594 Querent  Sun, Apr 24, 2011 10:36:31pm

re: #20 darthstar

You know why this 'fuck the poor' strategy works so well with the teabaggers? They all believe (or want to believe) that they may some day be part of the elite class.

As my brother once said, scratch a libertarian and you'll uncover somebody who longs for the return of the aristocracy -- because he thinks he'd be one...

595 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 2:53:37am

re: #594 Querent

As my brother once said, scratch a libertarian and you'll uncover somebody who longs for the return of the aristocracy -- because he thinks he'd be one...

The only libertarians I know are extremely alienated geeks who are loners.

nice folks, online. But they work from home and have no interest in the human race. I don't talk to them about politics, because what am i going to say to an angry, alienated geek loner? he's libertarian because of his personality. I can't change his personality.

596 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 2:54:16am

re: #589 SanFranciscoZionist

man, Aceofwhat, what happened to him

I remember him being a nice guy, not all extremo wacko

597 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 2:55:47am

re: #564 Aceofwhat?

Good stuff. And i may be overly focused on the genitals thing because i'm channeling my wife on some of this. In her words, "if she took the time and expense to have you-know-what converted, then i don't care if she looks like a Yeti, she deserves to share my bathroom, but asking a pre-op Yeti to pee with all of the other Yetis should be my prerogative".

Maybe there aren't a lot of other women who feel that way, so i may be unwittingly passing along a small minority opinion. To hear her say it, it's not an uncommon opinion among women, but again, i honestly wouldn't know for sure and don't want to pretend that i do!

Fuck your wife

Your wife is a bigoted pile of shit

598 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 3:01:56am

re: #564 Aceofwhat?

Good stuff. And i may be overly focused on the genitals thing because i'm channeling my wife on some of this. In her words, "if she took the time and expense to have you-know-what converted, then i don't care if she looks like a Yeti, she deserves to share my bathroom, but asking a pre-op Yeti to pee with all of the other Yetis should be my prerogative".

Maybe there aren't a lot of other women who feel that way, so i may be unwittingly passing along a small minority opinion. To hear her say it, it's not an uncommon opinion among women, but again, i honestly wouldn't know for sure and don't want to pretend that i do!

seriously

Maybe your wife is channeling david duke

Maybe she's channeling the klan

maybe she's channeling the guys who killed Matthew Shepherd

do me a favor and never talk to me again

599 labman57  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 1:08:40pm

And don't get him started should these discarded waifs ask for more porridge. MORE????


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