Sarah Palin has that fire in her belly again, and it ain’t heartburn.
(CNN) – Sarah Palin has given few indications in recent weeks she is still actively considering a presidential run, but the former Alaska governor said Thursday she has the “fire in my belly” to mount a bid for the White House.
“I think my problem is that I do have the fire in my belly,” said Palin.
That’s the problem, all right.
3 |
theheat Sat, May 21, 2011 7:15:20pm |
Fire in her belly? Bats in the belfry is more like it. She’s the most mentally deficient soul in the political scene, and that’s quite a feat.
| 4 |
nines09 Sat, May 21, 2011 7:16:26pm |
She says she has a “fire in my belly” and she wants to “mount a bid” and the White House is involved?
| 5 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 7:17:06pm |
See. I told y’all she was possessed by demons.
| 6 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, May 21, 2011 7:18:21pm |
re: #2 marjoriemoon
I like the Belly tag.
What Belly might look like (bonus points: song about a puppet master):
| 7 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, May 21, 2011 7:18:34pm |
| 8 |
TedStriker Sat, May 21, 2011 7:19:41pm |
| 9 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, May 21, 2011 7:19:55pm |
Is it sad how much I don’t care—or a sign of mental health?
| 10 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 7:21:25pm |
For the sake of any of her children, I hope none of them get knocked up while (if) Sarah runs for POTUS.
| 11 |
freetoken Sat, May 21, 2011 7:22:08pm |
“I think my problem is that I do have the fire in my belly,” said Palin.
Many folk remedies for that. Would recommend she cut down on animal fat consumption and increase the fiber.
| 12 |
theheat Sat, May 21, 2011 7:23:27pm |
re: #10 Slumbering Behemoth
Bristol’s making bank doing abstinence seminars, did DWTS, had a few nips and tucks, and now is scouting a reality TV show. Can’t say it really hurt either of Bristol or her mom. What about any of that would deter her younger siblings?
| 14 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 7:25:10pm |
Evening lizards!
Cubs working on a come back in the 8th inning. Great drama in Boston.
| 15 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 7:26:22pm |
And with bases loaded Boston walks in a run. Cubs down by 1 with bases loaded and nobody out. Sweet!
| 16 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 7:26:24pm |
re: #12 theheat
I just have a feeling that Bristol would have been able to make some different decisions had Sarah not been on the national stage at the time.
I have absolutely no proof, so of course this is just speculation, but I think she could have been pressured by the political machine into keeping the child and sticking with that douche Levi.
| 18 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, May 21, 2011 7:27:17pm |
Upding Frank:
“Anything over a mouthful is wasted.”
| 19 |
Skeetghazi Sat, May 21, 2011 7:28:09pm |
All I know is I’m going to have fire in my brain if this liar runs.
All she does is lie. Gah!!!
| 20 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 7:28:28pm |
re: #11 freetoken
Many folk remedies for that. Would recommend she cut down on animal fat consumption and increase the fiber.
Great Cthulhu’s Tentacles, man! Think of what you’re saying. An increase in fiber for someone who is so clearly full of shit could have disastrous results for the whole country. Maybe even the whole world.
| 21 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 7:28:32pm |
re: #6 goddamnedfrank
What Belly might look like (bonus points: song about a puppet master):
[Video]
The Belly is unhappy :(
| 22 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 7:28:43pm |
re: #19 Stanley Sea
All I know is I’m going to have fire in my brain if this liar runs.
All she does is lie. Gah!!!
She’s a politician, they all lie.
| 24 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 7:29:30pm |
re: #18 ggt
Upding Frank:
“Anything over a mouthful is wasted.”
Then why do you ladies always insist on telling me that “size matters”?
| 26 |
theheat Sat, May 21, 2011 7:29:51pm |
re: #16 Slumbering Behemoth
We’ll never know, but she’s doing alright due to her mother’s notoriety. It opened doors for her most other pregnant teens never see. Had she been any other teen, she’d be broke, tired, living at home, and looking for the first life raft that came her way.
| 28 |
albusteve Sat, May 21, 2011 7:30:01pm |
| 29 |
Skeetghazi Sat, May 21, 2011 7:30:21pm |
re: #22 NJDhockeyfan
She’s a politician, they all lie.
Not so fucking blatantly. There is definitely a difference.
| 31 |
windsagio Sat, May 21, 2011 7:30:52pm |
re: #19 Stanley Sea
I don’t think she will, but I can hope. We need more theater in the campaign!
| 32 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 7:30:56pm |
re: #29 Stanley Sea
Not so fucking blatantly. There is definitely a difference.
Bullshit. A lie is a lie. They all do it.
| 33 |
albusteve Sat, May 21, 2011 7:31:14pm |
re: #24 Slumbering Behemoth
Then why do you ladies always insist on telling me that “size matters”?
they are simply telling you, microscopic is not typical…no need to take it personal
| 34 |
windsagio Sat, May 21, 2011 7:31:19pm |
re: #29 Stanley Sea
damn need to refresh, you’re missing out on a whole bunch of ‘they’re all scum, that way I don’t feel bad about my side being evil!’ fun!
| 35 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 7:32:30pm |
re: #32 NJDhockeyfan
Bullshit. A lie is a lie. They all do it.
Um, all humans lie. It’s not something reserved for politicians.
Palin, beyond lying, doesn’t appear to even care what the truth about nearly anything is. I’m not even sure she knows when she’s lying.
| 36 |
palomino Sat, May 21, 2011 7:32:56pm |
re: #32 NJDhockeyfan
Bullshit. A lie is a lie. They all do it.
So all politicians lie equally? And we should thus not make a big deal of Palin’s whoppers? That’s absurd.
| 37 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 7:32:56pm |
Sarah’s got fire in the belly, and the whole country may get burned.
| 38 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 7:33:17pm |
Calling all politicians liars got me 2 downdings.
Heh.
| 39 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 7:33:20pm |
re: #33 albusteve
Hahaha! Out drinking with my bud one night, and he busts out with “Mine’s so big, I have to use both hands to jack off”.
I shot back with “Yeah, one hand to hold the tweezers, and the other to hold the magnifying glass”.
| 40 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, May 21, 2011 7:33:22pm |
re: #35 Obdicut
Um, all humans lie. It’s not something reserved for politicians.
Palin, beyond lying, doesn’t appear to even care what the truth about nearly anything is. I’m not even sure she knows when she’s lying.
I agree, deluded and singing to the choir.
| 41 |
Skeetghazi Sat, May 21, 2011 7:33:24pm |
re: #35 Obdicut
Um, all humans lie. It’s not something reserved for politicians.
Palin, beyond lying, doesn’t appear to even care what the truth about nearly anything is. I’m not even sure she knows when she’s lying.
She’s pathological.
| 42 |
windsagio Sat, May 21, 2011 7:33:48pm |
re: #35 Obdicut
I tend to believe its all a scam with the teaparty folks usually, but she shakes my confidence… its hard to imagine being that… Palinesque on purpose
| 43 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 7:34:07pm |
| 44 |
albusteve Sat, May 21, 2011 7:34:39pm |
re: #36 palomino
So all politicians lie equally? And we should thus not make a big deal of Palin’s whoppers? That’s absurd.
you can have Palin…toy with her…who gives a fuck
| 45 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 7:34:47pm |
re: #43 Dark_Falcon
After they got clubbed 15-5 by the Red Sox yesterday.
They are up by 3 now. Still nobody out.
| 46 |
palomino Sat, May 21, 2011 7:35:25pm |
re: #44 albusteve
you can have Palin…toy with her…who gives a fuck
uhh, a lot of republican voters. who else have they got to get excited over now?
| 47 |
windsagio Sat, May 21, 2011 7:35:41pm |
re: #38 NJDhockeyfan
complaining about downdings is weaksauce :p
Also, maybe people can read your false equivalency BS from a 3200 mile radius.
| 48 |
theheat Sat, May 21, 2011 7:35:42pm |
re: #35 Obdicut
Palin, beyond lying, doesn’t appear to even care what the truth about nearly anything is. I’m not even sure she knows when she’s lying.
Oh, yes she does. Her sense of self-preservation is too strong not to know, and too strong to ever ever ever admit half of what she says is pure fabrication or exaggeration. She manipulates, and uses it to her advantage. Why do you think she plays the victim card so hard?
She’s clever. Not smart. Shrewd. But not smart.
| 50 |
albusteve Sat, May 21, 2011 7:37:22pm |
re: #46 palomino
uhh, a lot of republican voters. who else have they got to get excited over now?
here’s a napkin…use it
| 51 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 7:38:07pm |
re: #33 albusteve
BTW, kudos on the zinger. You make me miss hanging out with my bud.
| 52 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 7:38:28pm |
re: #32 NJDhockeyfan
Bullshit. A lie is a lie. They all do it.
It’s probably not so much about “if” they lie, but their prowess in doing so. Newt gets on TV and says that the media cannot quote anything he said on last Sunday’s MTP because he’s decided that now his comments are inaccurate. Sounds very 1984 to me. (We were always at war with Eurasia.) He’s a much more sophisticated liar than Palin.
| 53 |
albusteve Sat, May 21, 2011 7:38:47pm |
re: #42 windsagio
I tend to believe its all a scam with the teaparty folks usually, but she shakes my confidence… its hard to imagine being that… Palinesque on purpose
ding this …politicians lie…it’s a part of the requirement
| 54 |
palomino Sat, May 21, 2011 7:38:47pm |
re: #50 albusteve
here’s a napkin…use it
look, it’s the topic of the thread. if you’re offended by folks piling on palin, complain to management.
| 55 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 7:38:57pm |
In other Palin news, her oldest child, her son Track, got married. I wish him and his new wife well. I don’t want Sarah Palin holding office, but I do not wish ill for her or her family.
| 56 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 7:39:01pm |
re: #47 windsagio
complaining about downdings is weaksauce :p
I’m not complaining about it. I take it as a badge of honor.
| 57 |
albusteve Sat, May 21, 2011 7:39:23pm |
re: #51 Slumbering Behemoth
BTW, kudos on the zinger. You make me miss hanging out with my bud.
jus spoofing on you
| 58 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 7:39:37pm |
| 59 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 7:40:05pm |
Anyone watching the Cubs game? The Red Sox are falling apart in the 8th. Cubs up 5 now.
| 61 |
albusteve Sat, May 21, 2011 7:40:24pm |
re: #54 palomino
look, it’s the topic of the thread. if you’re offended by folks piling on palin, complain to management.
bang away…but try to come up with something original
| 62 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 7:40:24pm |
| 63 |
albusteve Sat, May 21, 2011 7:41:44pm |
| 65 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 7:42:06pm |
re: #57 albusteve
My buddy and I would go off on each other with such hilarious vitriol, total strangers would get offended just passing by us.
If he and I were to do what we normally do, here on LGF, not only would we get banned, anyone who just happened to look at our comments would get banned.
| 66 |
theheat Sat, May 21, 2011 7:42:49pm |
Mr. Heat is car shopping for me. On eBay. That’s a very bad thing. I’m probably better off riding one of the horses. Gotta go before he pays $1500 to have the Flintstone mobile delivered from the bowels of hell. He’s terrible at this.
| 67 |
windsagio Sat, May 21, 2011 7:43:00pm |
re: #63 albusteve
I just know you can do better man, I’m always up for a few rounds, but you’ve gotta be worth playing.
| 68 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 7:43:25pm |
re: #62 NJDhockeyfan
Fox
I checked. Tonight’s game isn’t on DirecTV in my area unless you have MLB Extra Innings. I can’t watch it.
| 69 |
albusteve Sat, May 21, 2011 7:44:19pm |
re: #67 windsagio
I just know you can do better man, I’m always up for a few rounds, but you’ve gotta be worth playing.
guess what…you don’t count, have you forgotten that already?…when I want to walk the dog, I’ll let you know
| 70 |
Interesting Times Sat, May 21, 2011 7:44:21pm |
re: #67 windsagio
I just know you can do better man, I’m always up for a few rounds, but you’ve gotta be worth playing.
I’m just amazed at how you were gone for months and months, but no sooner do you return and he starts this up again :P It’s like the Internet equivalent of muscle memory or something.
| 71 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 7:45:04pm |
re: #68 Dark_Falcon
I checked. Tonight’s game isn’t on DirecTV in my area unless you have MLB Extra Innings. I can’t watch it.
That sucks. I have the East/West networks on DirecTV. The game is on both Fox channels.
| 72 |
windsagio Sat, May 21, 2011 7:45:32pm |
re: #70 publicityStunted
Can’t help it. WUB found his trolling cute, I find it too blatant for that :p
| 73 |
albusteve Sat, May 21, 2011 7:45:54pm |
re: #70 publicityStunted
I’m just amazed at how you were gone for months and months, but no sooner do you return and he starts this up again :P It’s like the Internet equivalent of muscle memory or something.
I don’t take kindly to insulting my friends here…as for you, here’s a cookie
| 74 |
palomino Sat, May 21, 2011 7:46:27pm |
re: #61 albusteve
bang away…but try to come up with something original
you’re looking for something original about palin? LOL
| 75 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 7:47:06pm |
re: #72 windsagio
Can’t help it. WUB found his trolling cute, I find it too blatant for that :p
Dude, Steve’s a grouch, not a troll. There are other people here who do way more in the form of actual trolling.
| 76 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 7:49:05pm |
The Top Five Lies Politicians Tell
Can you ever believe anything a politician says? Yeah, probably not.
I Won’t Raise Taxes
They almost all say this, yet everywhere you look, taxes get raised. The politicians are too afraid to tell us the truth, “You’re taxes are going up!”
I Care About the People
Do they? Maybe some start out that way, but it doesn’t take long for them to care more about the all-mighty dollar. Money talks, right?
I Promise!
Politicians are full of promises. They are full of other things as well! Anything that is said after “I promise” should never be believed. A leopard can’t change it’s spots.
I Won’t Accept Special Interest Money
The new guys always point to the incumbents and all the dirty special interest money they have soaked in during office. They claim they would never do such a thing if they were in office…but as soon as they get elected, the special interest money starts rolling in!
That Wasn’t Me With That Prostitute!
Sure it wasn’t. You also didn’t cheat on your wife, hit on guys in the bathroom stall, or ever do illegal drugs. Does power breed corruption or were they corrupt before they ever took office?
| 78 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 7:50:34pm |
re: #20 Slumbering Behemoth
Great Cthulhu’s Tentacles, man! Think of what you’re saying. An increase in fiber for someone who is so clearly full of shit could have disastrous results for the whole country. Maybe even the whole world.
Add fire to that, and we have an explosive combination.
| 79 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 7:55:24pm |
re: #75 Slumbering Behemoth
Dude, Steve’s a grouch, not a troll. There are other people here who do way more in the form of actual trolling.
I live under a bridge because I have to, not because I want to. OK?
| 80 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 7:56:09pm |
re: #79 b_sharp
Is that were you drew some blood?
| 82 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 7:58:23pm |
Bad news for Obama…
Top Jewish Americans ponder support for Obama
CHICAGO (Reuters) – Some prominent Jewish Americans are rethinking their support for President Barack Obama’s 2012 re-election bid after he effectively called on Israel to give back territory it has occupied since 1967 to Palestinians.
The backlash after Obama’s keynote speech on the Middle East has Democratic Party operatives scrambling to mollify the Jewish community as the president prepares to seek a second term in the White House.
Obama on Thursday called for any new Palestinian state to respect the borders as they were in 1967, prompting Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to tell him bluntly that his vision of how to achieve Middle East peace was unrealistic.
“He has in effect sought to reduce Israel’s negotiation power and I condemn him for that,” former New York Mayor Ed Koch told Reuters.
Koch said he might not campaign or vote for Obama if Republicans nominate a pro-Israel candidate who offers an alternative to recent austere budgetary measures backed by Republicans in Congress.
Koch donated $2,300 to Obama’s campaign in 2008, according to filings with the Federal Election Commission.
“I believed that then-Senator Obama would be as good as John McCain based on his statements at the time and based on his support of Israel. It turns out I was wrong,” he said.
| 83 |
jaunte Sat, May 21, 2011 7:59:06pm |
“But yeah, the fire in my belly, it’s there. That’s kind of my problem - it’s such a roaring fire to preserve what is good about America”
That ground beef in the tacos might have been a little off.
| 84 |
HoosierHoops Sat, May 21, 2011 7:59:19pm |
re: #81 albusteve
Mavs are pouring it on
It’s pissing me off…Westbrook couldn’t play point if his life depended on it
And nobody from the Thunder can hit shots
| 86 |
Interesting Times Sat, May 21, 2011 8:00:11pm |
re: #83 jaunte
That ground
beeffiller, food coloring, and chemicals in the tacos might have been a little off.
Fixed.
| 87 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 8:01:50pm |
“I think my problem is that I do have the fire in my belly,” said Palin.
Did someone give her some of my hot sauce?
| 88 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 8:02:24pm |
Woot! Spider-man 3 is on. Oh TV, I knew you’d be good for something other than video games one day.
/imsuchadork
| 90 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, May 21, 2011 8:05:11pm |
Night all!
May be back in the morning, maybe not.
| 92 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 8:07:01pm |
re: #87 NJDhockeyfan
Did someone give her some of my hot sauce?
No, she just swallowed too much Burning Stupid.
| 94 |
Bubblehead II Sat, May 21, 2011 8:08:40pm |
Evening Lizards. Just a drive by. So Palin has a “Fire in Her BellY”. She also has a “Hole In Her Mind”. Unfortunately, it is not the same type John Sheridan suffered from.
| 95 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, May 21, 2011 8:10:10pm |
Ms. Palin may have a fire in her belly, but the pilot light upstairs is very dim.
| 96 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 8:10:59pm |
re: #82 NJDhockeyfan
The irony being that Obama’s speech actually one-upped Bush in terms of support for Israel, in calling for Palestinians to recognize Israel as a start to negotiations.
| 97 |
SandwichKed Sat, May 21, 2011 8:12:09pm |
Awwww.
Belly was a good band. Not quite the soundtrack of my college years (NIN and Tori Amos), but certainly one of those musical touchstones which has informed my tastes ever since.
| 98 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 8:12:31pm |
re: #96 Obdicut
The irony being that Obama’s speech actually one-upped Bush in terms of support for Israel, in calling for Palestinians to recognize Israel as a start to negotiations.
Is that why the Israelis & prominent Jewish Americans are pissed off at Obama?
| 99 |
jaunte Sat, May 21, 2011 8:12:50pm |
Delos Johnson:
Image: Justbarelyfinishedthelawn.jpg
| 100 |
HoosierHoops Sat, May 21, 2011 8:13:53pm |
There is word that the Thunder will try to Trade Westbrook For Chris Paul straight up in the off-Season..
Westbrook just brought the ball down with Collison wide open under the basket and instead of passing he shot the ball and missed…
Westbrook is not a point guard
| 101 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 8:14:31pm |
re: #98 NJDhockeyfan
Is that why the Israelis & prominent Jewish Americans are pissed off at Obama?
Since when do people need an actual, real, reason to be pissed at Obama? What they think they believe has been good enough so far.
| 102 |
BongCrodny Sat, May 21, 2011 8:14:32pm |
The problem’s not that Palin has fire in her belly.
The problem is that she’s a dip.
If she wasn’t a dip, nobody would care how much fire in her belly she had.
| 103 |
zora Sat, May 21, 2011 8:14:41pm |
re: #98 NJDhockeyfan
Is that why the Israelis & prominent Jewish Americans are pissed off at Obama?
[Link: www.theatlantic.com…]
“I don’t see this as the president throwing Israel under the bus,” he told me. “He’s saying with `swaps.’ It’s not 1967 borders in the abstract. It’s not an edict. It’s a recommendation of a structure for negotiations.”
“The speech indicated to me that this administration has come a long way in better understanding and appreciating the difficulties facing both parties, but especially Israel in trying to make peace with the Palestinians,” Foxman said.
| 105 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 8:16:25pm |
re: #98 NJDhockeyfan
Is that why the Israelis & prominent Jewish Americans are pissed off at Obama?
I have no idea why Koch is pissed at Obama. Netanyahu, since he responded to the exact same statement positively in the past, I think is trying to play to the hard Israeli right, including the insane and detestable Avigdor Lieberman.
Which is too bad, because he’s basically sacrificing goodwill with the US for domestic Israeli support.
It’s all kind of zany. 1967 borders with land-swaps has always been the US position. Obama set a new standard in saying that the Palestinians should recognize Israel before they come to the table. And yet somehow, that part is just skipped over by people attacking him.
Really weird.
| 106 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, May 21, 2011 8:17:43pm |
re: #98 NJDhockeyfan
Is that why the Israelis & prominent Jewish Americans are pissed off at Obama?
You mean Israelis like Tzipi Livni or prominent Jewish Americans like Abe Foxman?
I love it when conservative non-Jews claim to what’s best for or speak on behalf of all Jews. It’s hilarious.
| 107 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, May 21, 2011 8:18:01pm |
re: #82 NJDhockeyfan
Bad news for Obama…
That’s just one.
And this ain’t happening anyway:
Koch said he might not campaign or vote for Obama if Republicans nominate a pro-Israel candidate who offers an alternative to recent austere budgetary measures backed by Republicans in Congress
I guess Koch will be voting for and supporting Obama because no such GOP candidate will emerge. If what happened to Newt is any indication the GOP nominee will have to endorse the Ryan plan to kill Medicare and Medicaid and be sunk like a millstone by it. Obama said explicitly what has been implicit US policy for decades, but I guess is your middle name is “Hussein” you have to be more careful about saying certain things out loud.
| 108 |
windsagio Sat, May 21, 2011 8:19:42pm |
re: #106 goddamnedfrank
Some people are tied into hyper-radical sources, and that’ll warp your whole vision.
| 109 |
Interesting Times Sat, May 21, 2011 8:20:05pm |
re: #105 Obdicut
I have no idea why Koch is pissed at Obama.
Apparently he has a long history of it.
| 110 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 8:22:13pm |
re: #109 publicityStunted
Oh, right, I forgot he really hitched his wagon to Hillary.
“Obama is a sure loser” was an awesome prediction.
| 111 |
Kragar Sat, May 21, 2011 8:23:07pm |
“disillusionment was profound”
disillusionment was already profound by late morning. To them, it was clear the world and its woes would make it through the weekend.Keith Bauer, a 38-year-old tractor-trailer driver from Westminster, Md., took last week off from work, packed his wife, young son and a relative in their SUV and crossed the country.
If it was his last week on Earth, he wanted to see parts of it he’d always heard about but missed, such as the Grand Canyon and the Painted Forest. With maxed-out credit cards and a growing mountain of bills, he said, the rapture would have been a relief.
On Saturday morning, Bauer was parked in front of the Oakland headquarters of Camping’s Family Radio empire, half expecting to see an angry mob of disenchanted believers howling for the preacher’s head. The office was closed, and the street was mostly deserted save for journalists.
Bauer said he was not bitter. “Worst-case scenario for me, I got to see the country,” he said. “If I should be angry at anybody, it should be me.”
| 112 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, May 21, 2011 8:23:18pm |
re: #109 publicityStunted
Apparently he has a long history of it.
“Consider the source” is a very relevant phrase in this case.
| 113 |
Bubblehead II Sat, May 21, 2011 8:24:24pm |
Night Lizards. Too many beers to be a productive participant in the conversation. Though I do have to wonder if I should resurrect my old (BBS) Nic.
The Survivalist (Yes, even with all the baggage it carries).
Charles, may I?
| 114 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 8:25:11pm |
re: #111 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
At least he sounds very reasonable about it. Being angry at himself is the correct response.
But, man, if he’s so reasonable, why the hell did he do it in the first place?
| 115 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, May 21, 2011 8:31:37pm |
re: #114 Obdicut
At least he sounds very reasonable about it. Being angry at himself is the correct response.
But, man, if he’s so reasonable, why the hell did he do it in the first place?
I wanted to laugh at people who fell for this hoax, but I can’t. It’s actually very sad and I feel for them. If this guy is any indication, they aren’t enjoying life and on some level want out. He saw death with a happy ending as the best escape from his problems and I just can’t be snarky about that.
| 116 |
Bubblehead II Sat, May 21, 2011 8:32:24pm |
| 117 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 8:32:46pm |
WTF?
Gang blinds Indian woman, accused of witchcraft, with scissors
RAIPUR, India (Reuters) – Eleven people stormed into a house in a central Indian village and assaulted a woman whom they accused of witchcraft, blinding her and her husband by stabbing them in the eyes with scissors, police said on Saturday.
The incident took place on Friday in the Raipur district of Chhattisgarh state. Police later arrested 10 suspects.
A family in Khaira village had been having money troubles and health problems, which they blamed on a 45-year-old woman, according to S.S. Baghel, a local police officer.
“The accused blamed the alleged witchcraft power of the lady for their problems and raided her house on Friday morning,” Baghel told Reuters by phone. “First they beat her up and then a few of them held her hands and legs and then inserted scissors into both her eyes.”
When her husband tried to intervene, the group turned on him and inserted scissors into his eyes as well, Baghel added. A doctor at a local hospital said the couple would likely never be able to see again.
| 118 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 8:32:54pm |
re: #82 NJDhockeyfan
Bad news for Obama…
I think that’s kinda bullshit, even if they feel that way. Obama’s policies haven’t changed since Bush. This from 2005.
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk…]
President George W Bush has cautioned Ariel Sharon, the Israeli Prime Minister Minister, against West Bank settlement growth.Mr Sharon has pledged his commitment to a US-backed peace “road map” but sent conflicting signals about abiding by the call for a halt to Israeli “settlement activity.”
“I told the prime minister of my concern that Israel not undertake any activity that contravenes road map obligations or prejudices final status negotiations,” Mr Bush said.
“Therefore, Israel should remove unauthorized outposts and meet its road map obligations regarding settlements in the West Bank,” the US president said.
I mean, I would think they’re upset about the land swap/deals portion of Obama’s speech. Did they say anything about the above when it happened?
| 119 |
freetoken Sat, May 21, 2011 8:33:38pm |
re: #114 Obdicut
At least he sounds very reasonable about it. Being angry at himself is the correct response.
As part of his re-normalization and acceptance of reality, yes, I agree that he has cause to blame himself.
But… being angry at Camping is likewise justified and I think necessary. Camping is professional deceiver, who was so good he deceived himself along in the process, but he definitely decided to do this whole thing many years ago when he refused to accept the judgement of his fellow church goers when he split from his church.
| 120 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, May 21, 2011 8:34:23pm |
re: #115 moderatelyradicalliberal
I wanted to laugh at people who fell for this hoax, but I can’t. It’s actually very sad and I feel for them. If this guy is any indication, they aren’t enjoying life and on some level want out. He saw death with a happy ending as the best escape from his problems and I just can’t be snarky about that.
At least he didn’t have his believers drink poisonous kool-aid or something like that.
| 121 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 8:37:43pm |
re: #119 freetoken
Oh sure. I just mean that for personal growth, it’s probably best to say to one’s self that you were an idiot for falling for it. Blaming just the dude would easily leave the way open for falling for the next guy down the road.
Who am I kidding, this guy is totally going to fall for the next guy down the road.
Sigh.
People.
People play the lotto every damn day.
| 122 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 8:45:15pm |
| 123 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, May 21, 2011 8:45:25pm |
re: #118 marjoriemoon
I think that’s kinda bullshit, even if they feel that way. Obama’s policies haven’t changed since Bush. This from 2005.
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk…]
I mean, I would think they’re upset about the land swap/deals portion of Obama’s speech. Did they say anything about the above when it happened?
It’s an old refrain, only good conservative Christians know what’s best for the Jews. You see this shit all the time on Freerepublic and other far right websites:
When Will American Jews Wake Up and Smell the Holocaust?
RightWire.net ^ | May 20, 2011 | Tax Nomo
Posted on May 20, 2011 7:15:20 PM PDT by SquarePantsI honest don’t know why I do it. I guess I just can’t help myself. I guess maybe I just enjoy reminding myself that Democrats have lost touch with reality.
One of my coworkers in my office building in Manhattan is a very liberal Democrat, and I just can’t help occasionally polling his opinion on the political goings-on. I’ve known him for two years and so far, on pretty much every matter about which we’ve spoken, his answer to pretty much everything is that it’s “Bush’s fault.”
Lately I’ve tired of the game, and haven’t really spoken politics with him since he managed to do a u-turn on the general topic of war and tried to tell me how Obama’s Libya war was a great idea. Mind you, this is a fellow Vice President of a successful company, and a Jew to boot.
So, after Obama tossed Israel to the wolves yesterday, and demanded concessions from Israel that would, if ever agreed to, pretty much guarantee the destruction of Israel, I just couldn’t help myself from thinking that maybe, just maybe, Obama’s latest betrayal would have him finally seeing the light.
No dice. When I asked him what he thought of Obama’s speech yesterday, he said he thought it was great… and that Obama would have his hands full un-doing all the damage George Bush did to the peace process in the Middle East…. I cut him off. I told him I thought maybe he had a point. His eyes brightened as I told him yes, if we can rely on Obama to do as good a job delivering peace to the Middle East as he did closing Gitmo, ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and keeping his promise to run the most transparent administration in American history, you Jews probably don’t have anything to worry about. Then I tossed a contract on his desk and walked out.
His eyes weren’t as bright when I left… but it was all I could do to resist telling him to wake up and smell the holocaust. It simmers constantly, but Obama just turned it up to a boil.
The comments are even better:
Like blacks and latinos, American Jews are a voting block that is taken for granted by the democrat party. The party takes their money and votes and plays them like a dime store kazoo.
They can be counted on to vote for their own demise. Look what the black community has done to its children as the result of democrat party loyalty.
…Perhaps you should have an educational experience in the parking lot….unless he/she is bigger than you…lol
…
Are most Jews cattle?… or goats?..
Not all are democrats but so many are..
when dealing with a Jew one must listen for the “MOO”…
And the overriding obsession to be milked..…
The only explanation lies in the bible. Read Ezekiel.
…
Rush on his show today explained that Jews are Liberals first, Jews second. Same with the blacks. They will all vote democratic no matter what. Still, makes no sense to us right thinkers, though.
..
Problem is after two decades of vilifying Evangelical Christians and they wonder why conservatives are starting to get more Ron Paul/Buchanan lite in their feelings toward the Jewish demand to shed conservative blood to save Israel in a hopeless war.
| 124 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 8:47:23pm |
re: #121 Obdicut
Oh sure. I just mean that for personal growth, it’s probably best to say to one’s self that you were an idiot for falling for it. Blaming just the dude would easily leave the way open for falling for the next guy down the road.
Who am I kidding, this guy is totally going to fall for the next guy down the road.
Sigh.
People.
People play the lotto every damn day.
It’s not for nothing that lotteries are called “taxes on stupidity”.
| 125 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 8:49:11pm |
re: #124 Dark_Falcon
I find them kinda contemptible behavior for a government to engage in. They’re supposed to look out for people, not take advantage of stupidity.
| 126 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 8:51:29pm |
re: #123 goddamnedfrank
It’s an old refrain, only good conservative Christians know what’s best for the Jews. You see this shit all the time on Freerepublic and other far right websites:
The comments are even better:
Are most Jews cattle?… or goats?..
Not all are democrats but so many are..
when dealing with a Jew one must listen for the “MOO”…
And the overriding obsession to be milked..
Comparing Jews to animals. Now, where have I heard that before… That’s right, from the Nazis. Congratulations, Freerepublic.com, you are officially a fascist website.
| 127 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 8:52:05pm |
re: #120 NJDhockeyfan
At least he didn’t have his believers drink poisonous kool-aid or something like that.
He did.
In some it will lead to death, in others just pain, but he’s ruined many lives.
| 129 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 8:52:56pm |
re: #125 Obdicut
I find them kinda contemptible behavior for a government to engage in. They’re supposed to look out for people, not take advantage of stupidity.
I don’t like ‘em either. Oddly enough, my dad does play lotto, though only in small amounts, and he knows the odds. So it can’t just be stupidity, since her isn’t stupid.
| 130 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 8:53:59pm |
re: #129 Dark_Falcon
It’s hope. Humans wouldn’t be anything if we couldn’t imagine that we’d beat the odds. Lotteries take advantage of both stupidity and hope. They’re double-plus-ungood.
| 131 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 8:55:12pm |
re: #126 Dark_Falcon
Comparing Jews to animals. Now, where have I heard that before… That’s right, from the Nazis. Congratulations, Freerepublic.com, you are officially a fascist website.
That’s not news D_F.
They tossed a handful of scientists out on three occasions for defending evolution.
| 132 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, May 21, 2011 8:55:20pm |
re: #129 Dark_Falcon
I don’t like ‘em either. Oddly enough, my dad does play lotto, though only in small amounts, and he knows the odds. So it can’t just be stupidity, since her isn’t stupid.
On the rare occasion when the jackpot gets up above $300 million I’ll buy a ticket, but I don’t pretend there’s anything at all intelligent about it.
| 133 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 8:58:39pm |
“I think my problem is that I do have the fire in my belly,” said Palin.
Sarah, that’s not your problem.
| 134 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 9:01:48pm |
re: #123 goddamnedfrank
We get no respect. No respect at all :(
| 135 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:02:05pm |
| 136 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:04:18pm |
re: #10 Slumbering Behemoth
For the sake of any of her children, I hope none of them get knocked up while (if) Sarah runs for POTUS.
Piper’s too young, the boys are too male, and Bristol is a grown woman with her own home (although I wish she’d go to college, Jesus, enough already) and can have a baby if she feels like it, so I guess that leaves Willow. Please God, that doesn’t happen, because frankly, one girl in the family going through that trauma is way more than enough.
| 137 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 9:04:58pm |
re: #128 b_sharp
It’s. just. the. start. of. the. season.
Not really. Season’s more than 6 weeks old. But the Cubs have struggled and they really need to win tomorrow.
| 138 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, May 21, 2011 9:05:29pm |
| 139 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 9:06:08pm |
re: #129 Dark_Falcon
I don’t like ‘em either. Oddly enough, my dad does play lotto, though only in small amounts, and he knows the odds. So it can’t just be stupidity, since her isn’t stupid.
My neighbor has played the same numbers every Wed and Sat for the last 12 years….. he knows it’s a fool’s game but he can’t skip a game now. He fully believes the first time he doesn’t buy one, his numbers will hit.
| 140 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:06:25pm |
re: #16 Slumbering Behemoth
I just have a feeling that Bristol would have been able to make some different decisions had Sarah not been on the national stage at the time.
I have absolutely no proof, so of course this is just speculation, but I think she could have been pressured by the political machine into keeping the child and sticking with that douche Levi.
I’ve no idea if keeping the baby would have been something she’d have chosen not to do otherwise, neither is it my business, but I highly agree about Levi. Todd should have run him off the property with a snowmobile, instead he got petted and treated like potential son-in-law material. He was so clearly not good news, and pretending did no one any good.
| 141 |
Kragar Sat, May 21, 2011 9:06:40pm |
re: #137 Dark_Falcon
Not really. Season’s more than 6 weeks old. But the Cubs have struggled and they really need to win tomorrow.
Its a long road before they’re out of the playoffs.
| 142 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:07:03pm |
re: #19 Stanley Sea
All I know is I’m going to have fire in my brain if this liar runs.
All she does is lie. Gah!!!
If she doesn’t run it will be better for the nation. If she does run it will be better for Jon Stewart. There are no downsides. Let Sarah do what Sarah will.
| 143 |
Buck Sat, May 21, 2011 9:08:06pm |
re: #139 Mr Pancakes
My neighbor has played the same numbers every Wed and Sat for the last 12 years… he knows it’s a fool’s game but he can’t skip a game now. He fully believes the first time he doesn’t buy one, his numbers will hit.
I did some math and found my odds of winning was virtually the same if I bought the ticket or not…
| 144 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:08:23pm |
re: #55 Dark_Falcon
In other Palin news, her oldest child, her son Track, got married. I wish him and his new wife well. I don’t want Sarah Palin holding office, but I do not wish ill for her or her family.
Oh, well, that’s nice news.
| 145 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 9:08:46pm |
re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist
Piper’s too young, the boys are too male, and Bristol is a grown woman with her own home (although I wish she’d go to college, Jesus, enough already) and can have a baby if she feels like it, so I guess that leaves Willow. Please God, that doesn’t happen, because frankly, one girl in the family going through that trauma is way more than enough.
Although Bristol is apparently getting her own reality show. Which is going to flop unless she gains the ability to relax in front of the camera.
| 146 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 9:08:57pm |
re: #143 Buck
I did some math and found my odds of winning was virtually the same if I bought the ticket or not…
Agreed……. I told him to stop and not look.
| 147 |
windsagio Sat, May 21, 2011 9:09:05pm |
re: #114 Obdicut
At least he sounds very reasonable about it. Being angry at himself is the correct response.
But, man, if he’s so reasonable, why the hell did he do it in the first place?
I’m gonna guess that the mountains of debt mentioned are probably actually a big part. The fantasy of it all going away is all the sweeter when you’re feeling doomed and overwhelmed.
| 148 |
HoosierHoops Sat, May 21, 2011 9:11:40pm |
re: #143 Buck
I did some math and found my odds of winning was virtually the same if I bought the ticket or not…
The odds of getting struck by Lightning are better than winning the lotto..
Nobody thinks they will be struck by lightning yet everyone thinks they will win the lotto
| 149 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:11:54pm |
re: #82 NJDhockeyfan
Bad news for Obama…
More wishful thinking. Is there any base that hasn’t supposedly abandoned poor old Obama yet?
| 150 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 9:12:34pm |
re: #137 Dark_Falcon
Not really. Season’s more than 6 weeks old. But the Cubs have struggled and they really need to win tomorrow.
How many games are the Cubs going to play this season? (162)
How many have they played so far?
| 151 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 9:12:51pm |
re: #148 HoosierHoops
Buying lotto tickets gives you a 93 cent return on your dollar.
For every dollar you spend, you get 93 cents back.
| 152 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:13:11pm |
re: #96 Obdicut
The irony being that Obama’s speech actually one-upped Bush in terms of support for Israel, in calling for Palestinians to recognize Israel as a start to negotiations.
And in bluntly telling the Palestinians not to try anything funny at the UN. And visualizing a Palestinian state and saying right off it would have to be demilitarized.
| 153 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 9:13:31pm |
re: #138 goddamnedfrank
hehe I thought you had linked to the comments on the Yahoo site NJD linked to. I never go to yahoo news anymore for the steaming pile of doo-doo that make up the comment section.
| 154 |
bratwurst Sat, May 21, 2011 9:13:33pm |
re: #123 goddamnedfrank
It’s an old refrain, only good conservative Christians know what’s best for the Jews. You see this shit all the time on Freerepublic and other far right websites:
The comments are even better:
Wow…who could have guessed that in spite of support for Israel that is a mile wide, their regard for Jews is an inch deep?
| 155 |
Vicious Babushka Sat, May 21, 2011 9:15:20pm |
re: #152 SanFranciscoZionist
San Francisco anti-Judaism bad craziness spreads to Santa Monica.
| 156 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 9:15:36pm |
re: #139 Mr Pancakes
My neighbor has played the same numbers every Wed and Sat for the last 12 years… he knows it’s a fool’s game but he can’t skip a game now. He fully believes the first time he doesn’t buy one, his numbers will hit.
I started playing a lotto pool at work some 12 years ago and now I’m stuck. There’s no way I won’t play, because the minute I don’t, they’ll win and then they’ll have to rename the place Marjorie Moon because I’ll be the only one left.
| 157 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 9:17:02pm |
re: #154 bratwurst
Wow…who could have guessed that in spite of support for Israel that is a mile wide, their regard for Jews is an inch deep?
As PZ Myers put it:
“I’ve seen this often in fundamentalist Christians. Jews aren’t really people; they’re just props in the script of their eschatology.”
I don’t agree with him on much, but I agree with him on this.
| 158 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, May 21, 2011 9:17:11pm |
re: #154 bratwurst
Wow…who could have guessed that in spite of support for Israel that is a mile wide, their regard for Jews is an inch deep?
Anybody (like me) who grew up amongst them. In private, a large number of Christian conservative Israel supporters enjoy using the term Jew as a verb.
| 159 |
freetoken Sat, May 21, 2011 9:17:50pm |
re: #155 Alouette
Not all anti-circumcisionists are anti-Judaism.
| 160 |
Usually refered to as anyways Sat, May 21, 2011 9:17:53pm |
re: #130 Obdicut
It’s hope. Humans wouldn’t be anything if we couldn’t imagine that we’d beat the odds. Lotteries take advantage of both stupidity and hope. They’re double-plus-ungood.
I heard yesterday that us Australians are the worst.
Avg $1200pa, third was NZ at $400pa.
I put a dollar on a horse once, and the wind blew it off.
After that I said f@#k it, its to hard to earn.
| 161 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 9:18:46pm |
re: #155 Alouette
I do expect that measure to be resoundingly defeated in SF.
| 162 |
Vicious Babushka Sat, May 21, 2011 9:19:05pm |
re: #159 freetoken
Not all anti-circumcisionists are anti-Judaism.
Yeah, they are, because banning circumcision is the same as banning Judaism.
All the anti-circ laws throughout history have resulted in massacres of Jews for stubbornly continuing to circumcise their sons.
| 163 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 9:19:25pm |
Never would have expected to like this, but here’s a really groovy cover of a Hall & Oates song by.. Daryl Hall???
| 164 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:20:02pm |
re: #98 NJDhockeyfan
Is that why the Israelis & prominent Jewish Americans are pissed off at Obama?
“The Israelis and Prominent Jewish Americans”. Abe Foxman is pleased with the speech. Jeffrey Goldberg is pleased with the speech. There’s been a lot of praise, under the drumbeat of the media trying to make this something big.
He didn’t say anything previous U.S. presidents hadn’t said. Except for telling the Palestinians not to try anything funny in September. And maybe the demilitarization part. I don’t know if we’d said that before.
If actual support drops because of this, which I much doubt, it will only be because of a brilliant hatchet job relying on the ingnorance of the voter.
| 165 |
freetoken Sat, May 21, 2011 9:20:36pm |
re: #162 Alouette
While some of the people involved in efforts such as we see now come from an anti-Judaism frame of mind, there are others who simply see it as an optional procedure that should be left to the individual when he is old enough to make the decision.
| 166 |
Vicious Babushka Sat, May 21, 2011 9:21:24pm |
re: #165 freetoken
While some of the people involved in efforts such as we see now come from an anti-Judaism frame of mind, there are others who simply see it as an optional procedure that should be left to the individual when he is old enough to make the decision.
Let’s ban Jews from practicing Judaism until they’re 18.
That’s so tolerant.
| 167 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:21:39pm |
re: #107 moderatelyradicalliberal
That’s just one.
And this ain’t happening anyway:
I guess Koch will be voting for and supporting Obama because no such GOP candidate will emerge. If what happened to Newt is any indication the GOP nominee will have to endorse the Ryan plan to kill Medicare and Medicaid and be sunk like a millstone by it. Obama said explicitly what has been implicit US policy for decades, but I guess is your middle name is “Hussein” you have to be more careful about saying certain things out loud.
Bush said ‘49 armistice lines’, and no one freaked.
Ed Koch can vote for who he wants, but if he’s honest, he won’t give his vote based on the idea that Obama crossed a line.
| 168 |
bratwurst Sat, May 21, 2011 9:22:30pm |
re: #158 goddamnedfrank
Anybody (like me) who grew up amongst them. In private, a large number of Christian conservative Israel supporters enjoy using the term Jew as a verb.
I once told someone how offensive I found that, and this person was absolutely incredulous that I (as a Jew) was insulted. I am not kidding! Major facepalm moment.
| 169 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 9:23:18pm |
re: #163 negativ
Never would have expected to like this, but here’s a really groovy cover of a Hall & Oates song by.. Daryl Hall???
[Video]
You can find a lot of that stuff at his website with various guests.
Live From Daryl’s House.
[Link: www.livefromdarylshouse.com…]
| 170 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 9:24:27pm |
re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist
it will only be because of a brilliant hatchet job relying on the ingnorance of the voter.
In other words, the American political machine as it has existed since probably 1798 or so?
| 171 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 9:24:36pm |
re: #162 Alouette
Yeah, they are, because banning circumcision is the same as banning Judaism.
And many laws like that have exceptions for religious reasons.
All the anti-circ laws throughout history have resulted in massacres of Jews for stubbornly continuing to circumcise their sons.
That’s not likely to happen in Western nations.
| 172 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:25:10pm |
re: #118 marjoriemoon
I think that’s kinda bullshit, even if they feel that way. Obama’s policies haven’t changed since Bush. This from 2005.
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk…]
I mean, I would think they’re upset about the land swap/deals portion of Obama’s speech. Did they say anything about the above when it happened?
Some of the Israeli further-right was pissed off at the Bush administration about various things when he was in office, and the settlement blocks were a constant source of annoyance, but somehow it didn’t translate into this kind of craziness.
| 173 |
Vicious Babushka Sat, May 21, 2011 9:26:11pm |
re: #171 b_sharp
And many laws like that have exceptions for religious reasons.
The new laws going to voters in California state POSITIVELY NO RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS
That’s not likely to happen in Western nations.
I could name a Western nation where that did happen.
| 174 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 9:26:32pm |
re: #162 Alouette
All the anti-circ laws throughout history have resulted in massacres of Jews for stubbornly continuing to circumcise their sons.
[citation needed]
| 175 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:26:36pm |
re: #123 goddamnedfrank
It’s an old refrain, only good conservative Christians know what’s best for the Jews. You see this shit all the time on Freerepublic and other far right websites:
The comments are even better:
Well, there’s two modes. Only conservative Christians know, or, alternatively, only Sarah Silverman knows.
Both are contemptible.
| 177 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 9:27:29pm |
re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist
Jinx. I was just watching the Sarah Silverman Program.
| 178 |
Vicious Babushka Sat, May 21, 2011 9:27:36pm |
re: #174 negativ
[citation needed]
Ancient Greece: anti-circumcision laws resulting in the Maccabean uprising
Inquisition Spain
1930’s Germany
| 181 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, May 21, 2011 9:28:49pm |
re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist
Some of the Israeli further-right was pissed off at the Bush administration about various things when he was in office, and the settlement blocks were a constant source of annoyance, but somehow it didn’t translate into this kind of craziness.
I like how Obama gets zero credit from the right for abandoning all objection to settlement building. It’s amazing how far into Israel’s corner he’s gone and people want to paint him as a raging anti-semite for reiterating one piece of decade plus old policy.
It’s pathological really.
| 182 |
windsagio Sat, May 21, 2011 9:28:54pm |
re: #180 Obdicut
Everything is obviously about my race and/or religion!
is that a little more clear? >>
| 183 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 9:29:02pm |
re: #173 Alouette
The new laws going to voters in California state POSITIVELY NO RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS
They’re going to have a tough time passing it then.
I could name a Western nation where that did happen.
Where?
| 184 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 9:29:34pm |
re: #178 Alouette
Ancient Greece: anti-circumcision laws resulting in the Maccabean uprising
Inquisition Spain
1930’s Germany
I haven’t the foggiest about the wiener laws of ancient Greece, but in the latter two cases I think you are confusing correlation with causation.
| 185 |
Vicious Babushka Sat, May 21, 2011 9:29:44pm |
| 186 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:30:15pm |
re: #143 Buck
I did some math and found my odds of winning was virtually the same if I bought the ticket or not…
Then again, there’s the old joke about the man who prays every week to win the lottery…
| 187 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 9:30:30pm |
re: #182 windsagio
Uh, yeah, anti-circumcision laws are really highly relevant to the religion that mandates circumcision.
That ain’t rocket surgery.
I don’t think that those promoting that bill are doing so out of anti-semitism, but that doesn’t stop it from being anti-semitic.
And again, I think it’ll get defeated.
| 188 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:30:42pm |
re: #145 Dark_Falcon
Although Bristol is apparently getting her own reality show. Which is going to flop unless she gains the ability to relax in front of the camera.
Beta-blockers are good for that.
| 189 |
windsagio Sat, May 21, 2011 9:30:54pm |
re: #184 negativ
selucids aren’t Greece anyways, not really. They’re kinda Hellenic I guess.
| 190 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 9:30:54pm |
re: #183 b_sharp
Germany really was a Western nation. So was Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary.
| 191 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 9:31:23pm |
re: #178 Alouette
Ancient Greece: anti-circumcision laws resulting in the Maccabean uprising
Inquisition Spain
1930’s Germany
I had a feeling you’d bring up Germany.
As far as I can tell we’re talking about modern sensibilities. What western country/culture is going to repeat Nazi Germany?
| 192 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:32:20pm |
re: #155 Alouette
San Francisco anti-Judaism bad craziness spreads to Santa Monica.
Oh, joy.
Not that it will pass in either place, but DAMN.
| 193 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 9:32:23pm |
re: #177 Obdicut
Jinx. I was just watching the Sarah Silverman Program.
I would hobble on bloody stumps through the snow for Sarah Silverman. If you’ve seen “The Aristocrats”, you know why.
| 194 |
windsagio Sat, May 21, 2011 9:32:24pm |
re: #187 Obdicut
do you believe that this anti-circumcision thing is done from an anti-semitic viewpoint?
You can talk about how they didn’t think it out very well, but this apocalyptic posturing is offputting.
| 195 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, May 21, 2011 9:32:37pm |
re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, there’s two modes. Only conservative Christians know, or, alternatively, only Sarah Silverman knows.
Both are contemptible.
Yeah, but with Sarah Silverman I can mute the sound and touch myself.
/wait, did I just say that out loud?
| 196 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 9:32:42pm |
re: #191 b_sharp
Right now in Italy, the camps of the Roma are being burned. The Roma were forced into sterilization programs, taken from their parents and re-educated, and murders of Roma are often not investigated.
What was the question again?
| 197 |
allegro Sat, May 21, 2011 9:33:16pm |
re: #166 Alouette
Let’s ban Jews from practicing Judaism until they’re 18.
That’s so tolerant.
Whoa, circumcision is an act of irreversible body modification that is an issue of civil rights in the eyes of many, just as FGM is. It certainly isn’t as invasive as FGM, but can be categorized in the same general capacity. Religious beliefs or not, it can certainly be argued that this is an unjustifiable act that in no way prevents one from worshipping as desired until the age of consent.
| 198 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 9:34:11pm |
re: #194 windsagio
do you believe that this anti-circumcision thing is done from an anti-semitic viewpoint?
.
Why would you ask that when I said, very clearly:
I don’t think that those promoting that bill are doing so out of anti-semitism, but that doesn’t stop it from being anti-semitic.
Did you not bother to read my post?
You can talk about how they didn’t think it out very well, but this apocalyptic posturing is offputting.
Such laws remind Jews of terrible, ugly times in the past, when Jews were massacred. I’m not so much worried about it happening again, as appalled that people would suggest it without even thinking about the historical context of such laws.
| 199 |
blueraven Sat, May 21, 2011 9:34:28pm |
re: #82 NJDhockeyfan
Bad news for Obama…
And Bush said the same thing in 2008…
Did you freak out then?
[Link: www.cfr.org…]
| 200 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 9:34:47pm |
re: #197 allegro
WIt certainly isn’t as invasive as FGM, but can be categorized in the same general capacity.
No, it really can’t. They are not comparable, any more than giving communion wine to kids is comparable to giving them LSD or heroin.
| 201 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 9:35:16pm |
re: #173 Alouette
The new laws going to voters in California state POSITIVELY NO RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS
I could name a Western nation where that did happen.
It seems a classic push against the ‘otherness’ of Jews to forbid such an exception. It’s a way of saying: “No, you don’t get to hold yourselves as unique. You must be like everyone else”. Forced assimilation.
| 202 |
windsagio Sat, May 21, 2011 9:36:32pm |
re: #197 allegro
gah things getting interesting once again as I have to go to work >> It’s actually a fairly complex issue. Circumcision is not remotely the hideous crime its been trendy to project it as lately. It actually does honestly have health benefits. Is it worth it? That’s kind of hard to tell.
re: #198 Obdicut
Well considering I was originally responding to alouette who clearly does think its a jew-hating thing, I think my question is reasonable :p You can’t have it both ways.
| 203 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 9:36:43pm |
To repost from this thread:
1Q. What does female genital mutilation do?
1A. It removes a large part of the sexually sensitive clitoris, or all of it. This almost always vastly reduces the amount of sexual pleasure a woman can achieve and often results in lasting pain occurring during intercourse. It often interferes with menstruation, thus affecting fertility, often causes frequent urinary tract infections, etc.
2Q. What does male circumcision do?
2A. It removes a very low-sensation fold of skin around the penis. This almost always has a negligible effect on health and psychology. Tests of random populations of circumcised and uncircumcised men have, in aggregate, no significant differences. In rare cases, male circumcision can— mainly through human error in the process— cause pain, scarring, and impaired sexual function. Most medical literature concludes that male circumcision has some health benefits and some health negatives.
3Q. What is the role of male circumcision in Jewish society:
3A. The role of male circumcision in Jewish society is to symbolize a covenant between God and the Jews, and belonging in the Jewish community. It is not believed to have any effect on the individual themselves.
4Q. What is the role of female genital circumcision in African (and other) society?
4A. It has varied roles, but in almost all of them that it is trans-formative is acknowledged. Men in those cultures will not marry those unmutilated women, citing that they are unclean or unmodest. In many cultures the acknowledged role of this procedure is to limit and control female sexuality, ‘helping’ them to be chaste, to resist ‘illicit’ urges, etc. In Europe and the US, the practice was explicitly used to control sexuality.
Comparing the two is like comparing allowing children to have communion wine to allowing children to be given psychotropic drugs or heroin.
| 204 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 9:36:46pm |
re: #200 Obdicut
No, it really can’t. They are not comparable, any more than giving communion wine to kids is comparable to giving them LSD or heroin.
Quite Concur.
| 205 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 9:37:34pm |
re: #202 windsagio
Well considering I was originally responding to alouette who clearly does think its a jew-hating thing, I think my question is reasonable :p You can’t have it both ways.
Then ask her, not me. Again, why would you ask me, when I’d already answered that question? What is the point of asking me something that I’d literally just explained?
I’m not trying to have anything both ways. What are you talking about?
| 206 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:38:00pm |
re: #159 freetoken
Not all anti-circumcisionists are anti-Judaism.
I would say that’s true, except that they have as a movement shown a complete disinterest in the fact that they’re denouncing, and sometimes proposing banning by law, an enormously religiously significant practice THAT MALEVOLENT ANTI-SEMITES HAVE ALWAYS BANNED.
The extreme cultural insensitivity makes me think poorly of them, particularly since the trends of the times are with them—fewer and fewer parents who don’t have a religious reason to do so are choosing to circumcise. Why is it so hard for them to tone this the fuck down?
| 207 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:38:24pm |
| 208 |
Varek Raith Sat, May 21, 2011 9:39:00pm |
Odd topic.
I fail to see the point in outlawing circumwhatsits.
| 209 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:39:33pm |
re: #162 Alouette
Yeah, they are, because banning circumcision is the same as banning Judaism.
All the anti-circ laws throughout history have resulted in massacres of Jews for stubbornly continuing to circumcise their sons.
And yet, people who understand why a literacy test for voters would be an attack on black Americans can’t seem to get why a ban on one of the central rituals of Judaism would bother anyone at all.
| 210 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:40:30pm |
re: #165 freetoken
While some of the people involved in efforts such as we see now come from an anti-Judaism frame of mind, there are others who simply see it as an optional procedure that should be left to the individual when he is old enough to make the decision.
That sounds great, except for the part where they’re trying to ban my religious practice in law.
| 211 |
jaunte Sat, May 21, 2011 9:40:55pm |
re: #206 SanFranciscoZionist
they have as a movement shown a complete disinterest in the fact that they’re denouncing, and sometimes proposing banning by law, an enormously religiously significant practice THAT MALEVOLENT ANTI-SEMITES HAVE ALWAYS BANNED.
It does seem like a great opportunity for people to mind their own business.
| 212 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:40:58pm |
re: #170 negativ
In other words, the American political machine as it has existed since probably 1798 or so?
Well, maybe. This is pretty crazy.
| 213 |
Obdicut Sat, May 21, 2011 9:42:00pm |
Since I really don’t feel like rehashing this argument, I’m going to bed.
| 214 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:42:02pm |
re: #171 b_sharp
And many laws like that have exceptions for religious reasons.
That’s not likely to happen in Western nations.
The one in SF has no exceptions at all.
Outside of religious exemptions, I’d sort of like the medical community to decide what is and isn’t good practice. I’m not qualified to vote on pediatric medicine. Neither are most people.
| 215 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 9:42:08pm |
re: #208 Varek Raith
Odd topic.
I fail to see the point in outlawing circumwhatsits.
I can understand outlawing female circumcision, but as a circumcised male, male circumcision is a non-issue.
| 216 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:42:31pm |
| 217 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:43:20pm |
re: #182 windsagio
Everything is obviously about my race and/or religion!
is that a little more clear? >>
You really don’t get this one.
| 218 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 9:43:46pm |
re: #207 SanFranciscoZionist
Me too.
It’s just SF being SF I don’t think it will win either, and if it does it should be overturned……. Take away the religious component…….. secular circumcision is common in the US.
| 219 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:44:36pm |
re: #191 b_sharp
I had a feeling you’d bring up Germany.
As far as I can tell we’re talking about modern sensibilities. What western country/culture is going to repeat Nazi Germany?
I don’t know. They came fucking close in the Balkans about twenty years back.
| 220 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 9:44:45pm |
re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist
Some of the Israeli further-right was pissed off at the Bush administration about various things when he was in office, and the settlement blocks were a constant source of annoyance, but somehow it didn’t translate into this kind of craziness.
They didn’t threaten not to vote for him. Not the Jewish Republicans anyway.
| 221 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 9:45:12pm |
Serious, honest question, no trolling expressed or implied —
If you are against anti-circumcision laws on religious grounds, what do you think about:
* Kentucky’s laws against the handling of venomous snakes in religious rituals?
* Federal law specifically permitting cultivation and use of peyote in religious circumstances, while simultaneously forbidding all other Schedule I substances for any reason whatsoever?
* Federal and state law against polygamy and parentally-sanctioned marriage of adults to underage girls, within the context of a religious ideology?
Questions of harm and consent.
| 222 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:46:07pm |
re: #194 windsagio
do you believe that this anti-circumcision thing is done from an anti-semitic viewpoint?
You can talk about how they didn’t think it out very well, but this apocalyptic posturing is offputting.
‘Offputting’.
What’s offputting to me is watching people refuse to understand that this punches buttons for an excellent reason. Why aren’t you willing to listen to Alouette explain why this is so frightening and offensive to observant and many not-so-observant Jews?
| 223 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, May 21, 2011 9:47:58pm |
re: #221 negativ
I’m against letting polygamous venomous snakes on peyote perform circumcisions … you’ve got to draw the line somewhere.
| 224 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 9:48:17pm |
re: #208 Varek Raith
Odd topic.
I fail to see the point in outlawing circumwhatsits.
I guess if they tell us what we can do with our vajayjays, they can tell you what to do with yer dingalings.
Speaking in scientific terms of course.
| 225 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 9:49:10pm |
re: #223 goddamnedfrank
I’m against letting polygamous venomous snakes on peyote perform circumcisions … you’ve got to draw the line somewhere.
LOL
| 226 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:49:20pm |
re: #218 Mr Pancakes
It’s just SF being SF I don’t think it will win either, and if it does it should be overturned… Take away the religious component… secular circumcision is common in the US.
It won’t pass. If it passes the courts will strike ‘er down.
San Francisco is much more agitated about sharks fin soup right now.
| 227 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 9:50:41pm |
re: #214 SanFranciscoZionist
The one in SF has no exceptions at all.
Outside of religious exemptions, I’d sort of like the medical community to decide what is and isn’t good practice. I’m not qualified to vote on pediatric medicine. Neither are most people.
Just don’t mess with the breast implants! By all means!! Won’t someone think about the hordes of small chested women out there?!
| 228 |
Varek Raith Sat, May 21, 2011 9:51:39pm |
re: #227 marjoriemoon
Just don’t mess with the breast implants! By all means!! Won’t someone think about the hordes of small chested women out there?!
Real boobs always >>> Fake boobs.
| 229 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:51:43pm |
re: #220 marjoriemoon
They didn’t threaten not to vote for him. Not the Jewish Republicans anyway.
No, they didn’t. The backbeat was always “George Bush is the best friend Israel ever ever had.”
I’m not going to disparage Bush on Israel, either, he did fine, and frankly, his other foreign adventures kept him from getting too hopped up on the Great American President Dream of fixing Israel/Palestinians. But I cannot get anyone to explain to me exactly what has changed that Obama is now a terrible person…except that he ‘feels’ different to them. Which I have to chalk up to party, race, or his Muslim roots, because I can’t see anything else.
| 230 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 9:53:21pm |
re: #228 Varek Raith
Real boobs always >>> Fake boobs.
True….. otherwise one could just stick a nipple on a water balloon and go to town.
| 231 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 9:54:26pm |
re: #228 Varek Raith
Real boobs always >>> Fake boobs.
As my beloved says, “better living through science.”
Really though, it urks me that no one even considers the terrible risks to cosmetic surgery, all for simple vanity and others got sure fired up when it comes to religious practices performed for 1000s of years.
| 232 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 9:54:29pm |
re: #219 SanFranciscoZionist
I don’t know. They came fucking close in the Balkans about twenty years back.
OK, you and Obdi are right. It can happen in western countries.
Just to narrow the field to the specific region the laws are possibly to be voted on, the US, is a massacre of Jews likely in the US because of these potential laws?
I don’t think the laws are well thought out, but I think presenting massacre as a potential outcome of these laws is way over the top.
The absence of religious exception I find interesting and unexpected.
| 233 |
Four More Tears Sat, May 21, 2011 9:54:44pm |
re: #230 Mr Pancakes
True… otherwise one could just stick a nipple on a water balloon and go to town.
It’s not all that much fun.
Or so I’ve heard…
| 234 |
jaunte Sat, May 21, 2011 9:55:26pm |
re: #231 marjoriemoon
It’s a curiously narrow form of busybodying.
| 235 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 9:56:24pm |
re: #231 marjoriemoon
As my beloved says, “better living through science.”
Really though, it urks me that no one even considers the terrible risks to cosmetic surgery, all for simple vanity and others got sure fired up when it comes to religious practices performed for 1000s of years.
Because nobody’s putting fake boobs on a newborn?
| 236 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:56:26pm |
re: #221 negativ
Serious, honest question, no trolling expressed or implied —
If you are against anti-circumcision laws on religious grounds, what do you think about:
* Kentucky’s laws against the handling of venomous snakes in religious rituals?
* Federal law specifically permitting cultivation and use of peyote in religious circumstances, while simultaneously forbidding all other Schedule I substances for any reason whatsoever?
* Federal and state law against polygamy and parentally-sanctioned marriage of adults to underage girls, within the context of a religious ideology?
Questions of harm and consent.
1. Do the venomous snakes kill people? Don’t know much about snake-handling.
2. I think peyote should be allowed in ritual. I think our drug laws are a little stupid, but support many of them.
3. I think polygamy should be socially permitted, although I don’t know about legally sanctioned. I am opposed to underage marriages.
4. I am also opposed to people straightening their children’s teeth with braces when there is no real medical cause, but I don’t think I get to vote on it.
5. I don’t know how I feel about people having pit bulls or loaded guns in homes with children. but once again, I don’t get a vote there.
| 237 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 9:56:50pm |
re: #231 marjoriemoon
As my beloved says, “better living through science.”
Really though, it urks me that no one even considers the terrible risks to cosmetic surgery, all for simple vanity and others got sure fired up when it comes to religious practices performed for 1000s of years.
You know…… that’s a damn good point.
| 238 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 9:57:12pm |
re: #234 jaunte
It’s a curiously narrow form of busybodying.
Indeed. I wouldn’t mind seeing the Anti-Boob lobby, but it won’t be in this life.
| 239 |
Usually refered to as anyways Sat, May 21, 2011 9:57:15pm |
re: #231 marjoriemoon
As my beloved says, “better living through science.”
Really though, it urks me that no one even considers the terrible risks to cosmetic surgery, all for simple vanity and others got sure fired up when it comes to religious practices performed for 1000s of years.
/ Its not simple vanity, its for BIG BAZOOKAS
| 241 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 9:58:17pm |
re: #227 marjoriemoon
Just don’t mess with the breast implants! By all means!! Won’t someone think about the hordes of small chested women out there?!
Someone pointed out that future archaelogists are going to find that the cemeteries of our time indicate that women were often buried with two rounded objects made of synthetic materials at their shoulders. It’s gonna be the Viking brooches or the Irish ear-spools of the 27th century.
| 242 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 9:59:01pm |
re: #226 SanFranciscoZionist
It won’t pass. If it passes the courts will strike ‘er down.
San Francisco is much more agitated about sharks fin soup right now.
And that is actually something worth being outraged about.
| 243 |
Four More Tears Sat, May 21, 2011 9:59:15pm |
What bothers me most about circumcision is that I never had a say in chopping off a piece of my own pecker. That’s really all I have to say about that.
| 244 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 9:59:22pm |
re: #203 Obdicut
To repost from this thread:
2Q. What does male circumcision do?
2A. It removes a very low-sensation fold of skin around the penis.
Back to urology 101 with you.
Most medical literature concludes that male circumcision has some health benefits and some health negatives.
So does prophylactic mastectomy, but anyone advocating doing that at birth with a modified melon scoop would be marginalized immediately.
3Q. What is the role of male circumcision in Jewish society:
3A. The role of male circumcision in Jewish society is to symbolize a covenant between God and the Jews, and belonging in the Jewish community. It is not believed to have any effect on the individual themselves.
Please don’t say you consider that to be even slightly objective.
Comparing the two is like comparing allowing children to have communion wine to allowing children to be given psychotropic drugs or heroin.
Thought experiment:
Imagine that humans had somehow never come up with the idea of circumcision, but instead had decided to cut out the septum at birth, for exactly the same reason that circumcision is done: because some guy said God told him to do it. It’s done in the same manner: without the consent of the person being carved upon, and without anesthesia. Does it still seem like a defensible practice?
| 245 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 10:00:07pm |
re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist
Someone pointed out that future archaelogists are going to find that the cemeteries of our time indicate that women were often buried with two rounded objects made of synthetic materials at their shoulders. It’s gonna be the Viking brooches or the Irish ear-spools of the 27th century.
Yea, and imagine their puzzlement when they dig up a bowing alley.
| 246 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, May 21, 2011 10:01:05pm |
re: #244 negativ
Experiment rejected. God cares too much to make that sort of pain and damage a universal sign of faith.
| 247 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 10:01:07pm |
re: #235 Slumbering Behemoth
Because nobody’s putting fake boobs on a newborn?
You mean that the newborn has no choice? Parents make all kinds of decisions for their children without legal intervention.
I’ve had a few friends who had adverse reactions to breast implants. One almost lost her nipple. Nasty stuff.
| 248 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 10:01:53pm |
| 249 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, May 21, 2011 10:02:32pm |
I’ve always wondered about people who pierce their baby’s ears. They say it heals better because the kids can’t mess with them while they’re healing.
I made my daughter wait until she was twelve because I wanted it to be her decision and because I wanted her to be old enough to take care of them herself.
That said, I wouldn’t go outlawing a major part of the Jewish religion.
| 250 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 10:02:40pm |
re: #243 JasonA
I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I am pretty big on informed consent. It’s a good thing.
| 251 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, May 21, 2011 10:02:54pm |
re: #249 EmmmieG
Of course, there is no religious significance whatsoever to piercing your child’s ears that I know of.
| 252 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:04:50pm |
re: #232 b_sharp
OK, you and Obdi are right. It can happen in western countries.
Just to narrow the field to the specific region the laws are possibly to be voted on, the US, is a massacre of Jews likely in the US because of these potential laws?
I don’t think the laws are well thought out, but I think presenting massacre as a potential outcome of these laws is way over the top.
The absence of religious exception I find interesting and unexpected.
No, I don’t expect massacres to result from this trend…I don’t expect this trend to go much of anywhere…but I wouldn’t expect sheriff-led lynchings to follow literacy tests for voters either.
The resonance is very deep, though. I was raised on stories of women circumcising their sons in the camps as a last act of defiance to the Nazis. Does that mean the anti-circ activists are Nazis? Of course not. But their cultural insensitivity is rather marked.
And, as I said, the weird thing is, they’re winning this battle. None of my non-Jewish or Muslim friends have had their sons circumcised. In general, it’s not seen as necessary, and more and more folks skip it.
| 253 |
Varek Raith Sat, May 21, 2011 10:05:04pm |
Good night.
Today was a total ripoff. The four horsemen are showing their age.
| 254 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 10:05:22pm |
re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist
Someone pointed out that future archaelogists are going to find that the cemeteries of our time indicate that women were often buried with two rounded objects made of synthetic materials at their shoulders. It’s gonna be the Viking brooches or the Irish ear-spools of the 27th century.
My dearest mother is quite a survivor. She had an anuerism near her brain so she has a plate in her head and is a breast cancer survivor. My hubby calls her Robo Grandma.
She and I had a few chuckles over the bumps and metal left in the coffin.
| 255 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 10:05:45pm |
re: #236 SanFranciscoZionist
1. Do the venomous snakes kill people? Don’t know much about snake-handling.
Yes, but it’s a form of natural selection.
2. I think peyote should be allowed in ritual. I think our drug laws are a little stupid, but support many of them.
I agree, it really depends on the drug and any proposed management strategy.
3. I think polygamy should be socially permitted, although I don’t know about legally sanctioned. I am opposed to underage marriages.
I totally agree. I’d like to add my opposition to arranged marriages as well.
4. I am also opposed to people straightening their children’s teeth with braces when there is no real medical cause, but I don’t think I get to vote on it.
Emotional well being is a medical reason.
5. I don’t know how I feel about people having pit bulls or loaded guns in homes with children. but once again, I don’t get a vote there.
All dogs have been bred for aggression, pit bulls are no more dangerous than other similar sized dogs. The owners are the danger.
Loaded guns where kids can find them is stupid.
| 256 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 10:05:54pm |
re: #243 JasonA
What bothers me most about circumcision is that I never had a say in chopping off a piece of my own pecker. That’s really all I have to say about that.
It gives it “personality”.
| 257 |
reine.de.tout Sat, May 21, 2011 10:06:01pm |
re: #182 windsagio
Everything is obviously about my race and/or religion!
is that a little more clear? >>
Um, it’s also about whether various governmental jurisdictions in this country can begin to propose/enact laws restricting the free practice of religion, any religion. Although it seems lately some here would be perfectly fine with that, I think it’s constitutionally prohibited. Just my non-expert opinion.
| 258 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 10:06:38pm |
re: #251 EmmmieG
Of course, there is no religious significance whatsoever to piercing your child’s ears that I know of.
My wife pierced my daughter’s ear lobes when she was a couple of weeks old…… it’s just what they do in Mexico…… I told a friend “my wife is already poking holes in a perfectly good baby”.
| 259 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 10:07:03pm |
re: #243 JasonA
What bothers me most about circumcision is that I never had a say in chopping off a piece of my own pecker. That’s really all I have to say about that.
I just wish they had left the three inches they obviously cut off.
| 260 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:08:16pm |
re: #244 negativ
Back to urology 101 with you.
So does prophylactic mastectomy, but anyone advocating doing that at birth with a modified melon scoop would be marginalized immediately.
Please don’t say you consider that to be even slightly objective.
Thought experiment:
Imagine that humans had somehow never come up with the idea of circumcision, but instead had decided to cut out the septum at birth, for exactly the same reason that circumcision is done: because some guy said God told him to do it. It’s done in the same manner: without the consent of the person being carved upon, and without anesthesia. Does it still seem like a defensible practice?
Would I worry over it? Not really.
How many folks here have ever attended a bris?
| 261 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 10:08:20pm |
re: #247 marjoriemoon
You mean that the newborn has no choice? Parents make all kinds of decisions for their children without legal intervention.
I’ve had a few friends who had adverse reactions to breast implants. One almost lost her nipple. Nasty stuff.
I’m not a fan of fake boobs. All kinds of things can go wrong. If everything goes right, you’re still looking at a significant decrease in sensitivity, which is half the point of having the things in the first place, I think.
But comparing infant circumcision (body modification without informed consent) to adult boob jobs (body modification with informed consent) is like comparing peckers and titties.
| 262 |
Usually refered to as anyways Sat, May 21, 2011 10:08:32pm |
re: #259 b_sharp
I just wish they had left the three inches they obviously cut off.
What bloke wants his fire engine shortened if he had a choice?
| 263 |
allegro Sat, May 21, 2011 10:08:41pm |
re: #243 JasonA
What bothers me most about circumcision is that I never had a say in chopping off a piece of my own pecker. That’s really all I have to say about that.
Thank you. As a non-penised American who is not Jewish, I’m seeing this body modification as something that would be better left to the age of consent. In the US, there are no significant health benefits to the practice of which I am aware and therefore no compelling arguments to support it.
| 264 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:09:11pm |
re: #251 EmmmieG
Of course, there is no religious significance whatsoever to piercing your child’s ears that I know of.
Lot of cultural significance for some, though.
| 265 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 10:09:46pm |
re: #258 Mr Pancakes
My wife pierced my daughter’s ear lobes when she was a couple of weeks old… it’s just what they do in Mexico… I told a friend “my wife is already poking holes in a perfectly good baby”.
Almost all of my Hispanic g/fs have done this with their babies. They also put evil eye bracelets on the tykes. I always thought it was a big cultural.
| 266 |
jaunte Sat, May 21, 2011 10:09:54pm |
re: #259 b_sharp
I just wish they had left the three inches they obviously cut off.
There, you see: having a good story is the ultimate purpose for circumcision.
| 267 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 10:10:59pm |
re: #231 marjoriemoon
As my beloved says, “better living through science.”
Really though, it urks me that no one even considers the terrible risks to cosmetic surgery, all for simple vanity and others got sure fired up when it comes to religious practices performed for 1000s of years.
A huge number of people get fired up about vanity surgery. Plenty of people — male and female — have nothing but contempt for the fashion / cosmetics /advertising industry that makes it possible. I’ll leave it as an academic exercise to figure out why they seem quieter than they are.
Along that line, I highly recommend the documentary America the Beautiful.
| 268 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, May 21, 2011 10:11:18pm |
re: #243 JasonA
What bothers me most about circumcision is that I never had a say in chopping off a piece of my own pecker. That’s really all I have to say about that.
I’m happy with my results. I have a difficult time understanding people who get at all worked up over it.
| 269 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 10:11:32pm |
re: #263 allegro
Thank you. As a non-penised American who is not Jewish, I’m seeing this body modification as something that would be better left to the age of consent. In the US, there are no significant health benefits to the practice of which I am aware and therefore no compelling arguments to support it.
I dunno about that….. my ex father-in-law had his done in the Navy on a ship …… he said it was a very miserable experience.
| 270 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 10:12:34pm |
re: #251 EmmmieG
Of course, there is no religious significance whatsoever to piercing your child’s ears that I know of.
Guess how I can tell you don’t know any Hindus.
| 271 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:12:55pm |
re: #255 b_sharp
I totally agree. I’d like to add my opposition to arranged marriages as well.
Depends on who and when. If the persons being married are agreeable to bringing the families into the decision, I have no issue.
Emotional well being is a medical reason.
Hold on. You can make an underage child wear a device that will literally force their teeth around in the root, causing weeks or months of pain that they will remember, for the sake of their ‘emotional wellbeing’, but circumcision is a problem?
;)
| 272 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, May 21, 2011 10:13:09pm |
re: #270 negativ
Guess how I can tell you don’t know any Hindus.
You’re right, I don’t—at least not that well. However, the people I knew who did it weren’t Hindu.
| 273 |
allegro Sat, May 21, 2011 10:13:14pm |
re: #269 Mr Pancakes
I dunno about that… my ex father-in-law had his done in the Navy on a ship … he said it was a very miserable experience.
Why did he have it done?
| 274 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 10:13:38pm |
re: #265 marjoriemoon
Almost all of my Hispanic g/fs have done this with their babies. They also put evil eye bracelets on the tykes. I always thought it was a big cultural.
I don’t know what an eye bracelet is….. my wife might be old skool now….. but the frilly headband was popular.
| 275 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:14:23pm |
re: #265 marjoriemoon
Almost all of my Hispanic g/fs have done this with their babies. They also put evil eye bracelets on the tykes. I always thought it was a big cultural.
One of my mother’s friends decided NOT to pierce the baby’s ears. Grandma is still discussing this in Ladino with a whole bunch of folks, living and dead.
| 276 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 10:14:45pm |
re: #261 Slumbering Behemoth
I’m not a fan of fake boobs. All kinds of things can go wrong. If everything goes right, you’re still looking at a significant decrease in sensitivity, which is half the point of having the things in the first place, I think.
But comparing infant circumcision (body modification without informed consent) to adult boob jobs (body modification with informed consent) is like comparing peckers and titties.
lol Well I guess my point, aside from the infant/adult aspect of it, is that there’s a lot of unnecessary and dangerous surgery that no one barks about and they shouldn’t. It’s a woman’s choice, of course, even if I think the emphasis on big breasts in our society has gotten out of control. Certainly then, a religious medical choice which very rarely harms the child shouldn’t be met with hostility.
Thanos put up an interesting video on the subject, but I’m too lazy to find it now.
| 277 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 10:15:34pm |
re: #268 goddamnedfrank
I’m happy with my results.
With what frame of reference? How do you know? It’s like saying you’re happier having not been born female.
| 278 |
allegro Sat, May 21, 2011 10:16:39pm |
re: #271 SanFranciscoZionist
Hold on. You can make an underage child wear a device that will literally force their teeth around in the root, causing weeks or months of pain that they will remember, for the sake of their ‘emotional wellbeing’, but circumcision is a problem?
Malocclusions, or misaligned teeth and/or jaws are significant health issues. They are most effectively dealt with in childhood before the jaws are fully formed. It isn’t just a cosmetic issue.
| 279 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:16:41pm |
re: #269 Mr Pancakes
I dunno about that… my ex father-in-law had his done in the Navy on a ship … he said it was a very miserable experience.
Worst circumcision story ever: a guy I knew’s mom went Orthodox when he was in high school. She wasn’t a very stable person, and had tried a lot of things, but returning to roots seemed to make her happy, and he was happy for her, and helped kosher the kitchen.
Then she asked him to have a bris, and he did.
He had just about finished healing up when he came home one day and found her looking morose and eating a Big Mac. The pious fit was over.
I would have killed her. He shrugged. “She’s my mom. I love her. It was important to her…at the time.”
Now that is a model of filial piety.
| 280 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 10:16:56pm |
re: #273 allegro
Why did he have it done?
You know…… that’s a good question. I felt a little uncomfortable when he told me the story…… I was in my teens and he was a 40 year old Gunnery Sgt….. I never asked him.
| 281 |
b_sharp Sat, May 21, 2011 10:17:03pm |
re: #271 SanFranciscoZionist
Depends on who and when. If the persons being married are agreeable to bringing the families into the decision, I have no issue.
Hold on. You can make an underage child wear a device that will literally force their teeth around in the root, causing weeks or months of pain that they will remember, for the sake of their ‘emotional wellbeing’, but circumcision is a problem?
;)
I have crooked teeth. My younger brother had braces, his teeth are nice and straight.
He got the better deal.
All of my male siblings were circumcised, and none the worse for it. (Except my three inches.)
| 282 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:17:40pm |
re: #278 allegro
Malocclusions, or misaligned teeth and/or jaws are significant health issues. They are most effectively dealt with in childhood before the jaws are fully formed. It isn’t just a cosmetic issue.
I clarified with no medical reason.
| 283 |
What, me worry? Sat, May 21, 2011 10:18:17pm |
| 284 |
Four More Tears Sat, May 21, 2011 10:18:33pm |
Not to put too fine a point on it, but we often come down on men for making decisions concerning women’s bodies around here…
| 285 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, May 21, 2011 10:18:38pm |
True story: When I gave birth to one of my children (First I thought it was the baby, then I did the math and I think it’s one up from that), we took him to be circumcised at the hospital. I waited outside, because I figured the person to whom it was important, (i.e. not me) could watch if he was going to ask for it to happen. There was another lady out there, holding a little girl, obviously just given birth, obviously REALLY upset.
She had lost the argument.
Two years later we were at a party for a child of some friends, and there were some friends of theirs with a boy about our son’s age. We compared birthdays. Same.
All of a sudden it dawned on me. It was the pissed off lady.
No, I didn’t say anything to her, but obviously she got over being unhappy.
| 286 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:19:02pm |
re: #280 Mr Pancakes
You know… that’s a good question. I felt a little uncomfortable when he told me the story… I was in my teens and he was a 40 year old Gunnery Sgt… I never asked him.
Lot of guys had it done in the service back in the day. A circumcised doodle was easier to keep infection-free under service and combat conditions. WWII, I think, is actually when it became common practice among Gentiles in the US.
| 287 |
reine.de.tout Sat, May 21, 2011 10:20:39pm |
re: #284 JasonA
Not to put too fine a point on it, but we often come down on men for making decisions concerning women’s bodies around here…
As far as I know, Jewish babies have a male parent as well as a female parent.
| 288 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 10:20:39pm |
| 289 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:21:01pm |
re: #285 EmmmieG
True story: When I gave birth to one of my children (First I thought it was the baby, then I did the math and I think it’s one up from that), we took him to be circumcised at the hospital. I waited outside, because I figured the person to whom it was important, (i.e. not me) could watch if he was going to ask for it to happen. There was another lady out there, holding a little girl, obviously just given birth, obviously REALLY upset.
She had lost the argument.
Two years later we were at a party for a child of some friends, and there were some friends of theirs with a boy about our son’s age. We compared birthdays. Same.
All of a sudden it dawned on me. It was the pissed off lady.
No, I didn’t say anything to her, but obviously she got over being unhappy.
Friend of mine’s husband wanted to get their boys circumcised so they would ‘match’ him. She traded no circumcision for their having his last name.
Then, of course, he left them all—this guy was bad news—so I actually don’t know WHAT the boys’ names are now.
| 290 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 10:21:01pm |
re: #271 SanFranciscoZionist
Hold on. You can make an underage child wear a device that will literally force their teeth around in the root, causing weeks or months of pain that they will remember, for the sake of their ‘emotional wellbeing’, but circumcision is a problem? ;)
Your analogy sucks, and you’re smart enough to know it.
If orthodontics worked like this:
Hello, Lisa. You have a slight malocclusion consisting of 8 imperfectly-aligned teeth, and your parents say they have to go. So lemme see… where are my pliers… hmmm… AH yes, here they are. Now open wide and hold still… gah! Dammit nurse, get the restraints!
then you might have a point.
| 291 |
Usually refered to as anyways Sat, May 21, 2011 10:21:11pm |
re: #281 b_sharp
All of my male siblings were circumcised, and none the worse for it. (Except my three inches.)
Be grateful I lost half of mine.
I only got left with 8”.
| 292 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, May 21, 2011 10:21:19pm |
Anyway, I lost a lot of sleep last night due to a very interesting occurrence that I may tell you about some day, and I am going to bed.
G’nite.
| 294 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, May 21, 2011 10:22:33pm |
re: #271 SanFranciscoZionist
Depends on who and when. If the persons being married are agreeable to bringing the families into the decision, I have no issue.
Hold on. You can make an underage child wear a device that will literally force their teeth around in the root, causing weeks or months of pain that they will remember, for the sake of their ‘emotional wellbeing’, but circumcision is a problem?
;)
Woah *headgear flashback* … thanks.
re: #277 negativ
With what frame of reference? How do you know? It’s like saying you’re happier having not been born female.
And I am happy about that. I’m not the kind of person who sits and perseverates over what might have been, what I’m missing out on, or what I’m not. I’m fucking awesome right now, as is, no need to sit and worry about how my parents might have wronged me as a week old infant. I’ve got an average American functional penis that’s conducive to the Jewish ladies. One of the many reason I hang out with the Reform crowd, life is wonderful.
| 295 |
jaunte Sat, May 21, 2011 10:22:43pm |
Must be after midnight. The losses are getting bigger.
| 296 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 10:22:55pm |
re: #276 marjoriemoon
I’m not at all hostile towards it. I have mixed opinions. And as I noted before, I’m a real big fan of informed consent.
| 297 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:23:07pm |
re: #287 reine.de.tout
As far as I know, Jewish babies have a male parent as well as a female parent.
Usually yes.
| 298 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 10:23:09pm |
re: #286 SanFranciscoZionist
Lot of guys had it done in the service back in the day. A circumcised doodle was easier to keep infection-free under service and combat conditions. WWII, I think, is actually when it became common practice among Gentiles in the US.
Yes…. and his buddies were probably hard assing him too. “Look it’s pencil dick!”
| 299 |
Usually refered to as anyways Sat, May 21, 2011 10:23:09pm |
re: #284 JasonA
Not to put too fine a point on it, but we often come down on men for making decisions concerning women’s bodies around here…
I think your confused.
Circumcision removes the finer point.
| 300 |
Mr Pancakes Sat, May 21, 2011 10:24:24pm |
| 301 |
Four More Tears Sat, May 21, 2011 10:24:32pm |
re: #299 ozbloke
I think your confused.
Circumcision removes the finer point.
Ummm…I thought the finer point was all that was left.
Wait, did I have an accident and not even know it?
| 304 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:25:56pm |
re: #290 negativ
Your analogy sucks, and you’re smart enough to know it.
If orthodontics worked like this:
Hello, Lisa. You have a slight malocclusion consisting of 8 imperfectly-aligned teeth, and your parents say they have to go. So lemme see… where are my pliers… hmmm… AH yes, here they are. Now open wide and hold still… gah! Dammit nurse, get the restraints!
then you might have a point.
You ever been to a bris? Seriously. Never seen a baby in restraints.
Why are you getting so defensive about a painful body-altering practice on underage children that isn’t even religious in nature?
| 305 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 10:26:27pm |
re: #246 Dark_Falcon
Experiment rejected. God cares too much to make that sort of pain and damage a universal sign of faith.
The internet has broken my ability to detect satire, sarcasm, and facetiousness. Therefore, I have no idea how to interpret what you mean.
| 306 |
Four More Tears Sat, May 21, 2011 10:29:38pm |
re: #305 negativ
The internet has broken my ability to detect satire, sarcasm, and facetiousness. Therefore, I have no idea how to interpret what you mean.
If I may mangle the words Of James Tiberius Kirk…
What does God need with a foreskin?
| 307 |
allegro Sat, May 21, 2011 10:32:47pm |
re: #304 SanFranciscoZionist
Why are you getting so defensive about a painful body-altering practice on underage children that isn’t even religious in nature?
Getting orthodontic treatment for a child is something the child will be forever grateful for. Speaking as one who was tortured beyond description with said treatment for most of my youth, I can say that without it I could never have achieved what I did and I am grateful to my parents.
| 308 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:36:36pm |
re: #307 allegro
Getting orthodontic treatment for a child is something the child will be forever grateful for. Speaking as one who was tortured beyond description with said treatment for most of my youth, I can say that without it I could never have achieved what I did and I am grateful to my parents.
And here we see culture at work.
| 309 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, May 21, 2011 10:38:43pm |
re: #306 JasonA
If I may mangle the words Of James Tiberius Kirk…
What does God need with a foreskin?
See, this is the kind of thing that lends itself to layers and layers of entertaining ponderment.
Trivia:
Kirk was played by the incomparable William Shatner, who is nominally Jewish (his words, not mine).
“What does God need with a starship?” is a Kirk line from Star Trek V - which was directed by Shatner and is almost universally agreed among the entire spectrum of Star Trek nerdology - from the hardcore lunatics who speak fluent Klingon and wear home-made Starfleet uniforms to work, to the outwardly ordinary and highly respected thoracic surgeons who secretly imagine Dr. McCoy judging their every medical decision (right alongside Dr. House) - to be the worst Star Trek film ever made.
And so we suspect that the secret underlying message is (?)
| 310 |
Buck Sat, May 21, 2011 10:43:42pm |
I guess no one wants to ask, what is to me is the obvious question.
Is it at all right for voters to decide on what until now has been a private family matter?
This matter has a religious angle, and has been performed by the earths oldest religion for thousands of years. The argument that “what if a religion did this or did that” is silly when you realize the depth of this practice.
Freedom of religion is not just an American concept but is a universal concept. A religious tradition that has been as widely accepted as this one, for these so many years, is deserving of more respect than people who admit they no nothing about it, talking about informed consent ( I am addressing the group seeking to ban it).
| 311 |
allegro Sat, May 21, 2011 10:45:08pm |
re: #308 SanFranciscoZionist
And here we see culture at work.
Yes we do. As a woman you know as well as I do how much appearance affects a woman’s potential success in life. A high IQ isn’t enough. Without that pretty smile I would never have been able to beat down those doors that limited women, me, in the career I had chosen and that I was damn good at.
| 312 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 10:49:45pm |
re: #311 allegro
Yes we do. As a woman you know as well as I do how much appearance affects a woman’s potential success in life. A high IQ isn’t enough. Without that pretty smile I would never have been able to beat down those doors that limited women, me, in the career I had chosen and that I was damn good at.
So secular reasons are good enough, but religious ones are not?
This is why I think this needs to be a matter of family decision, with a doctor’s input.
| 313 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 10:57:59pm |
re: #310 Buck
This matter has a religious angle, and has been performed by the earths oldest religion for thousands of years.
Which one would that be, because it’s certainly not Judaism.
Freedom of religion is not just an American concept but is a universal concept.
So is “informed consent”.
Look, I am not on the whole ban circumcision band wagon, but lets be realistic here.
| 314 |
Buck Sat, May 21, 2011 11:04:20pm |
re: #313 Slumbering Behemoth
Which one would that be, because it’s certainly not Judaism.
Certainly not? You are certain about that? Hinduism might be older, it is not clear, We do know Abraham, and this practice dates back to 1800 BC.
And what exactly do you mean by realistic?
| 315 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 11:08:48pm |
re: #314 Buck
There are many religions that pre-date Judaism, some of which Judaism borrowed from directly. To pretend otherwise would be to pretend in a young earth creation myth.
| 316 |
allegro Sat, May 21, 2011 11:09:17pm |
re: #312 SanFranciscoZionist
So secular reasons are good enough, but religious ones are not?
This is why I think this needs to be a matter of family decision, with a doctor’s input.
The two are really not comparable, I think. I’m actually finding it rather amusing to be in a position to compare straightening and aligning teeth to circumcising a penis. Since I have no religious connection nor am I aware of any health or other benefits in the US of removing a foreskin, I cannot argue in favor of circumcision. Since it would seen that a male could worship in any manner he chooses with or without a foreskin, this would not appear to be an essential issue that could not wait until the age of consent.
That argument does not entirely apply to the straightening of teeth and jaw alignment since early intervention does have influence on the outcome of treatment.
| 317 |
Buck Sat, May 21, 2011 11:10:16pm |
re: #315 Slumbering Behemoth
There are many religions that pre-date Judaism, some of which Judaism borrowed from directly. To pretend otherwise would be to pretend in a young earth creation myth.
Fine I should have said oldest surviving religion. I really thought that was obvious.
| 318 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 11:14:38pm |
re: #317 Buck
Fine I should have said oldest surviving religion. I really thought that was obvious.
Oldest surviving? Maybe. Obvious, not so much.
This matter has a religious angle, and has been performed by the earths oldest religion for thousands of years.
That part I bolded pretty much negates the “obviousness” you imply.
| 319 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 11:15:37pm |
re: #306 JasonA
If I may mangle the words Of James Tiberius Kirk…
What does God need with a foreskin?
He’s making a wallet.
| 320 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 11:19:24pm |
re: #316 allegro
The two are really not comparable, I think. I’m actually finding it rather amusing to be in a position to compare straightening and aligning teeth to circumcising a penis. Since I have no religious connection nor am I aware of any health or other benefits in the US of removing a foreskin, I cannot argue in favor of circumcision. Since it would seen that a male could worship in any manner he chooses with or without a foreskin, this would not appear to be an essential issue that could not wait until the age of consent.
That argument does not entirely apply to the straightening of teeth and jaw alignment since early intervention does have influence on the outcome of treatment.
I’m not asking anyone to ‘favor’ circumcision. I wouldn’t recommend it to a gentile friend.
What I’m asking for is an acknowledgement that this is not such a major concern that it should override parental choice and religious freedom.
| 321 |
Buck Sat, May 21, 2011 11:22:17pm |
re: #318 Slumbering Behemoth
Oldest surviving? Maybe. Obvious, not so much.
That part I bolded pretty much negates the “obviousness” you imply.
Really, that is the exact quote I would have used to show that I was not talking about a dead religion, but one that continued to perform the same ritual even today.
Was that the only point you wanted to make about realistic? That there must have been some kind of religion before Abraham?
Again, I speak of a religious tradition that has been as widely accepted as this one (millions of adherents) , for these so many years (almost 4000) and it deserves more respect than to be made illegal by the voters of San Francisco.
| 322 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 11:24:53pm |
re: #321 Buck
Realistic. Informed consent: not present.
Realistic. Earth’s oldest religion: not by the longest of shots.
| 323 |
Buck Sat, May 21, 2011 11:30:40pm |
re: #322 Slumbering Behemoth
Realistic. Earth’s oldest religion: not by the longest of shots.
Fine name two religions that have the same language and traditions today as they did …. let’s say 3000 years ago.
| 324 |
allegro Sat, May 21, 2011 11:34:57pm |
re: #320 SanFranciscoZionist
I’m not asking anyone to ‘favor’ circumcision. I wouldn’t recommend it to a gentile friend.
What I’m asking for is an acknowledgement that this is not such a major concern that it should override parental choice and religious freedom.
Oh man, SFZ, this is hard. While it is probably not a life altering thing - I say as one who does not have the appendage in question - it is an irreversible body modification of some significance. Religious freedom is denied the infant when the foreskin is removed since that infant isn’t given a vote. Parental choice is certainly an issue that should be respected. But where is the line between the parent’s rights and the boy’s rights to make the decisions about his own body?
| 325 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 11:37:10pm |
re: #323 Buck
Fine name two religions that have the same language and traditions today as they did … let’s say 3000 years ago.
Are you truly that daft? Just about anyone can reason that as soon as our primitive ancestors developed advanced brains, they began making up superstitious beliefs.
Two seconds on Google gets you this.
| 326 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 11:40:09pm |
re: #324 allegro
Oh man, SFZ, this is hard. While it is probably not a life altering thing - I say as one who does not have the appendage in question - it is an irreversible body modification of some significance. Religious freedom is denied the infant when the foreskin is removed since that infant isn’t given a vote. Parental choice is certainly an issue that should be respected. But where is the line between the parent’s rights and the boy’s rights to make the decisions about his own body?
I’m not entirely sure. What I am sure of is that something this emotionally, medically, culturally and religiously complex shouldn’t be a matter for a local ballot measure put on by some activists.
| 327 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 21, 2011 11:43:09pm |
re: #323 Buck
Fine name two religions that have the same language and traditions today as they did … let’s say 3000 years ago.
Judaism doesn’t exactly meet that test. The tradition may be all of a piece, but practice has changed substantially within the last 3000 years. Rise of rabbinic Judaism, etc., etc.
Hinduism probably meets the test. Zoroastrianism is close, it’s about 2600 years old.
| 328 |
Buck Sat, May 21, 2011 11:43:26pm |
re: #325 Slumbering Behemoth
Are you truly that daft? Just about anyone can reason that as soon as our primitive ancestors developed advanced brains, they began making up superstitious beliefs.
Two seconds on Google gets you this.
wiki answers is not a really good source. Lot’s of answers from many sources. If you actually study it, you will learn that Hindu referred to an area in India long before it was a religion.
But you say I am wrong by a long shot, so it should be easy for you to name two religions that have the same language and traditions today as they did … let’s say 3000 years ago. How about 2500 years ago?
Not many neanderthals still practicing their superstition today are there?
| 329 |
allegro Sat, May 21, 2011 11:47:08pm |
re: #326 SanFranciscoZionist
I
‘m not entirely sure. What I am sure of is that something this emotionally, medically, culturally and religiously complex shouldn’t be a matter for a local ballot measure put on by some activists.
While a part of me wants to agree with this, another part is thinking about those girls who are being subjected to FGM and I cannot stop making the comparison. Those children deserve protection.
| 330 |
Buck Sat, May 21, 2011 11:47:24pm |
re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist
Judaism doesn’t exactly meet that test. The tradition may be all of a piece, but practice has changed substantially within the last 3000 years. Rise of rabbinic Judaism, etc., etc.
Hinduism probably meets the test. Zoroastrianism is close, it’s about 2600 years old.
In 2004, the number of Zoroastrians worldwide was estimated at between 145,000 and 210,000,,, and they certainly do not follow the same traditions or language as they did 2600 years ago.
| 331 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, May 21, 2011 11:49:34pm |
re: #329 allegro
I
While a part of me wants to agree with this, another part is thinking about those girls who are being subjected to FGM and I cannot stop making the comparison. Those children deserve protection.
You really should stop making the comparison, it’s apples and hand grenades.
| 332 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, May 21, 2011 11:51:35pm |
re: #328 Buck
wiki answers is not a really good source. Lot’s of answers from many sources. If you actually study it, you will learn that Hindu referred to an area in India long before it was a religion.
But you say I am wrong by a long shot, so it should be easy for you to name two religions that have the same language and traditions today as they did … let’s say 3000 years ago. How about 2500 years ago?
Not many neanderthals still practicing their superstition today are there?
This is you, moving goal posts back and forth. First it’s “earth’s oldest religion”, then it’s “oldest surviving religion”. Then it’s back to “earth’s oldest religion”, then back again to “oldest surviving religion”.
Either you’re too ass backwards dumb to see what you’re doing, or you are not being an honest actor here. Whichever it is, I am done entertaining you. Have a good night.
| 333 |
Buck Sat, May 21, 2011 11:54:44pm |
re: #332 Slumbering Behemoth
This is you, moving goal posts back and forth. First it’s “earth’s oldest religion”, then it’s “oldest surviving religion”. Then it’s back to “earth’s oldest religion”, then back again to “oldest surviving religion”.
Either you’re too ass backwards dumb to see what you’re doing, or you are not being an honest actor here. Whichever it is, I am done entertaining you. Have a good night.
I said that I should have said “oldest surviving religion”, and that I thought it was obvious that is what I was talking about. I did not change anything after that, and I don’t think that was a big change, as I say I think that was clear from the start.
| 334 |
allegro Sat, May 21, 2011 11:57:20pm |
re: #331 goddamnedfrank
You really should stop making the comparison, it’s apples and hand grenades.
Yes, in some ways it is. The invasiveness is certainly not comparable as I absolutely acknowledge. However, the consent issue is entirely valid, wouldn’t you agree?
| 335 |
allegro Sun, May 22, 2011 12:10:50am |
LOL I’m realizing that I, a woman, am the only one here arguing for the sanctity of a man’s cock and the right of a man to have the ultimate choice over whether said cock should be left as nature intended or circumcised.
If you guys don’t care…. never mind.
| 336 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, May 22, 2011 12:14:56am |
re: #335 allegro
I care. It’s pretty open minded of you. My cock thanks you.
| 337 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, May 22, 2011 12:20:24am |
re: #336 Slumbering Behemoth
I care. It’s pretty open minded of you. My cock thanks you.
And not in some kind of skeevy, net-sex kind of way. But in a manner of appreciation for the way you sort of step outside your own gender or belief system and consider it from a perspective that you otherwise wouldn’t have.
It’s like you’ve made the attempt to walk a mile in another man’s underwear, and I think that’s pretty cool of you.
| 338 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, May 22, 2011 12:28:33am |
AND ANOTHER THING… with this whole religious right to circumcision…
It’s as if to say that we are Gawd’s most perfect creation, but for this one huge fuck up on His part that we are commanded to correct shortly after birth.
A logic bomb like that would crash the most advanced and sinister of AIs, wouldn’t it?
| 339 |
allegro Sun, May 22, 2011 12:40:29am |
re: #336 Slumbering Behemoth
I care. It’s pretty open minded of you. My cock thanks you.
And not in some kind of skeevy, net-sex kind of way. But in a manner of appreciation for the way you sort of step outside your own gender or belief system and consider it from a perspective that you otherwise wouldn’t have.
It’s like you’ve made the attempt to walk a mile in another man’s underwear, and I think that’s pretty cool of you.
It’s entirely self-serving actually. I believe that until we are equal in all ways that equality can never be realized. We still have some distance to go.
| 340 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, May 22, 2011 3:56:47am |
re: #124 Dark_Falcon
It’s not for nothing that lotteries are called “taxes on stupidity”.
Lotteries are a tax on people who are bad at math.
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