GOP Cut Crucial Weather Satellite Overhaul in 2011

Real world consequences of right wing anti-science denial
Environment • Views: 32,442

In Joplin, Missouri, dozens of families are in mourning today after a killer tornado struck with very little warning last night. The property damage is immense, and clean-up will take months. Up to three quarters of the city of Joplin has been destroyed.

As part of the aftermath, we must note that these recent weather disasters have long been predicted by climate scientists, as one of the consequences of global warming.

It may be impossible to say with certainty whether any particular case is directly attributable to climate change, but we’re going to be seeing more of these kinds of extreme weather events, and they’re going to increase in frequency. And unfortunately, even if there are measures we could take to start reversing the trends (and there are), we have a very large percentage of Americans who’ve been convinced by the Republican Party and Fox News that scientists are liars, and there’s nothing to worry about.

Following the disaster in Joplin, the right wing denial machine is already kicking into high gear with a blizzard of misinformation (charts and graphs and everything!), led by Anthony Watts with an article in the Daily Caller.

This storm of denial has very real effects, even in the short term. In the 2011 federal spending bill, the GOP slashed the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s budget, and killed a $700 million overhaul of our aging environmental satellite system. This program was specifically targeted because satellites are one of the best sources for accurate climate data, and accurate climate data invariably supports the global warming models — therefore it must be destroyed.

But these satellites also serve as the nation’s first line of defense against dangerous weather events: GOP cut crucial weather satellites with fierce hurricane season looming.

Highlighting the critical need for accurate forecasting, yesterday NOAA released their annual hurricane forecast predicting yet another “above-normal” hurricane season. This year, Americans can expect up to 18 named storms and as many as six that could become category five hurricanes. Last year’s hurricane season was one of the busiest on record and that is a trend we can expect to continue. Rising ocean temperatures have been found to increase the frequency and intensity of hurricanes – and this year, ocean temperatures are four degrees higher than normal. These alarming trends aren’t limited to hurricanes – scientists have found that as a result of climate change, killer weather is now the “new normal.”

“Because we have insufficient funds in the ’11 budget, we are likely looking at a period of time a few years down the road where we will not be able to do the severe storm warnings and long-term weather forecasts that people have come to expect today,” Lubchenco said.

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139 comments
1 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:12:47pm

Watts is a turd.

2 Kragar  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:12:50pm

Weather satellites are against God's plan.

3 garhighway  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:12:54pm

If you don't believe in science, why should you believe in data?

4 Tigger2  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:14:13pm

The radical right is going to be the death of all of us.

5 albusteve  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:14:30pm

'storm of denial'....stunning, but not surprising anymore

6 BishopX  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:24:14pm

Charles,

Your accuweather link is out dated, the accuweather story concerning the damage to Joplin can be found here.

7 Alexzander  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:24:35pm

OT: Just lost a little respect for The Onion with this anti-Israel satire that reinforces a particularly dangerous meme:

Government Official Who Makes Perfectly Valid, Well-Reasoned Point Against Israel Forced To Resign

8 Bulworth  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:25:26pm

I wonder how much warning the people in Joplin had.

9 albusteve  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:26:32pm

re: #8 Bulworth

I wonder how much warning the people in Joplin had.

20 min

10 Alexzander  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:27:24pm

re: #9 albusteve

20 min

Terrifying. I've never been in a situation like that.

11 Bulworth  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:28:16pm

re: #9 albusteve

20 min


So, basically no warning.

12 Decatur Deb  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:30:31pm

re: #11 Bulworth

So, basically no warning.

Twenty minute should be enough to do anything that's doable. The problem is indecision and lack of hard shelters.

13 wee fury  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:31:54pm

Basements -- or storm cellars. Every home needs one or the other in tornado country.

14 Alexzander  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:32:06pm

re: #11 Bulworth

So, basically no warning.

I'm presently in Seattle. When the fault line finally goes here (last I heard, 10 percent chance over the next 50 years), there will literally be no warning. Tens of thousands, if not more, could die. Even though its neurotic, it is still a factor for potentially relocating again. Or at least getting out of an old multi-story apartment building.

15 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:32:41pm

re: #14 Alexzander

I'm presently in Seattle. When the fault line finally goes here (last I heard, 10 percent chance over the next 50 years), there will literally be no warning. Tens of thousands, if not more, could die. Even though its neurotic, it is still a factor for potentially relocating again. Or at least getting out of an old multi-story apartment building.

Does an early-warning earthquake system exist anywhere? (Officially ignorant on this one).

16 Kragar  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:32:54pm

re: #11 Bulworth

So, basically no warning.

20 more minutes than I ever gotten during an earthquake.

17 Kragar  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:33:24pm

re: #15 EmmmieG

Does an early-warning earthquake system exist anywhere? (Officially ignorant on this one).

Not really.

18 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:33:30pm

re: #11 Bulworth

So, basically no warning.

It's at least enough to grab your kids and take some kind of shelter.

19 Romantic Heretic  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:34:07pm

Can't say I'm surprised. The GOP, as currently constituted, believe in magical thinking. Whether it's 'the power of prayer' or 'the invisible hand of the marketplace' they believe that their are outside forces that are beyond humanity's control to which we must bow.

Which is weird considering they're all about power and freedom. The cognitive dissonance must be a constant source of agony for them.

20 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:34:20pm

Mt. St. Helens had an early-warning system. It was called "I'm going to put out gas and ash for two months before I really blow."

21 SteelGHAZI  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:34:40pm

Are they trying to get people killed?

22 Alexzander  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:35:20pm

re: #15 EmmmieG

Does an early-warning earthquake system exist anywhere? (Officially ignorant on this one).

There was an article about it in Scientific American a month or two ago. Japan has the ability to potentially provide one to two MINUTES warning. They have these stations set up all around the country. There is talk of doing something similar along the west coast.

Best case scenario: you get a 1 minute warning (by text message/radio/etc) to stop your car or exit your building etc.

23 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:36:39pm

re: #15 EmmmieG

Does an early-warning earthquake system exist anywhere? (Officially ignorant on this one).

No.

Earthquakes occur pretty damned far down in the crust (and much further on subducted plate boundaries) and there are few clues at the surface that can give us much warning. There was a successful earthquake warning in Italy a couple of years ago (I think there was a swarm of tremors leading up to the event), and there is some possibility that some radioactive gasses can be measured to give a very rough indication that something may happen.

Others have tried to map pet disappearances in newspapers looking for an unusual number of pet missing ads as a clue.

24 kirkspencer  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:36:49pm

re: #15 EmmmieG

Does an early-warning earthquake system exist anywhere? (Officially ignorant on this one).

Define "early". Quakeguard is good for 10 to 30 seconds (depending on distance from epicenter), just to give an example.

25 Vicious Babushka  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:37:22pm

re: #20 EmmmieG

Mt. St. Helens had an early-warning system. It was called "I'm going to put out gas and ash for two months before I really blow."

Yeah but, nobody knew that Mt. St. Helens would erupt sideways.

26 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:38:06pm

re: #25 Alouette

Yeah but, nobody knew that Mt. St. Helens would erupt sideways.

The actual lateral eruption broke the speed of sound.

27 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:38:35pm

I should have said "Broke the sound barrier", actually.

28 Kragar  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:38:47pm

re: #24 kirkspencer

Define "early". Quakeguard is good for 10 to 30 seconds (depending on distance from epicenter), just to give an example.

Shit, if your hearing is good, you can get a good 5 or 6 seconds of lead time for the door.

29 Varek Raith  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:40:46pm

re: #25 Alouette

Yeah but, nobody knew that Mt. St. Helens would erupt sideways.

True, though stratovolcanoes tend to explode.

30 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:40:47pm

re: #28 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Shit, if your hearing is good, you can get a good 5 or 6 seconds of lead time for the door.

Stupid thing to do. Get under a very solid object or get into a door way. People trying to exit buildings get clobbered by falling masonry.

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:41:06pm

re: #22 Alexzander

There was an article about it in Scientific American a month or two ago. Japan has the ability to potentially provide one to two MINUTES warning. They have these stations set up all around the country. There is talk of doing something similar along the west coast.

Best case scenario: you get a 1 minute warning (by text message/radio/etc) to stop your car or exit your building etc.

That's often enough to save lives, in a place like Japan or California where the building code is up to snuff.

Would do fuck-all in places like rural Iran, or rural China, or Haiti, but...you start where you are.

32 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:41:29pm

re: #29 Varek Raith

True, though stratovolcanoes tend to explode.

Depending on the magma composition and amount of dissolved gases.

33 elizajane  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:42:17pm

The Party of Personal Responsibility believes that everybody should have their own personal weather satellite, damn it! And if you don't, well, that's not the government's problem.

34 Kragar  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:42:31pm

re: #30 celticdragon

Stupid thing to do. Get under a very solid object or get into a door way. People trying to exit buildings get clobbered by falling masonry.

You've got to get to the door to stand in the doorway

35 Decatur Deb  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:42:54pm

re: #32 celticdragon

Depending on the magma composition and amount of dissolved gases.

"Fucking volcano monitoring--how does it work?"
-Gov Jindal

36 Alexzander  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:43:15pm

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

That's often enough to save lives, in a place like Japan or California where the building code is up to snuff.

Would do fuck-all in places like rural Iran, or rural China, or Haiti, but...you start where you are.

Yeah, when I heard about the medium sized earthquake in Turkey earlier this week I was worried because one of my strongest memories of that country is the absolutely terrifying construction work. They too, are waiting for a big one.

37 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:43:33pm

re: #34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You've got to get to the door to stand in the doorway

Just don't run out. That gets drilled into you when you live in earthquake country. Running out of a building as a great way to die.

38 Kragar  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:43:37pm

re: #35 Decatur Deb

"Fucking volcano monitoring--how does it work?"
-Gov Jindal

Perhaps we could build a sand bar?

39 Targetpractice  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:43:45pm

re: #33 elizajane

The Party of Personal Responsibility believes that everybody should have their own personal weather satellite, damn it! And if you don't, well, that's not the government's problem.

No no, they believe that if it was really important, a private company would be doing it. The marketplace would demand that such things exist, because there was a demand for them.

All with a "reasonable fee," of course.

//

40 Kragar  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:45:00pm

re: #37 celticdragon

Just don't run out. That gets drilled into you when you live in earthquake country. Running out of a building as a great way to die.

Lived over 2/3 of my life in CA, and half of the other 3rd in Japan. I know earthquakes.

41 Varek Raith  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:45:50pm

re: #32 celticdragon

Depending on the magma composition and amount of dissolved gases.

What are ya, some kind of geowhatsits?
:)

42 Varek Raith  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:46:42pm

re: #38 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Perhaps we could build a sand bar?

Jersey barriers.
I saw it in a movie.

43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:47:36pm

There have to be cuts somewhere. $700,000,000.00 is a pile of money.

Did the system not work because it was not overhauled?

There are very difficult choices ahead. Any of those choices are going to have consequences.

If the decision was logical? I'm cool with it. If it was simply a political "take that!" moment, well, shame on them.

44 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:48:25pm

re: #39 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

No no, they believe that if it was really important, a private company would be doing it. The marketplace would demand that such things exist, because there was a demand for them.

All with a "reasonable fee," of course.

//

I had some genius at The Agitator tell me today that government imposition of fire codes on hotels is actual tyranny.

If you die because the hotel you stayed in had shitty safety practices and no fire escape, then the market will correct for it later, see?

45 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:49:11pm

re: #41 Varek Raith

What are ya, some kind of geowhatsits?
:)

One semester left to my degree in geology :)

On to grad school....

46 kirkspencer  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:49:30pm

re: #43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There have to be cuts somewhere. $700,000,000.00 is a pile of money.

Did the system not work because it was not overhauled?

There are very difficult choices ahead. Any of those choices are going to have consequences.

If the decision was logical? I'm cool with it. If it was simply a political "take that!" moment, well, shame on them.

And see, I disagree with the part I highlighted. There's also the option of increasing revenues (taxes) instead.

Yet it's always "we have to cut" without even a nod to the alternative.

47 garhighway  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:50:32pm

re: #43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There have to be cuts somewhere. $700,000,000.00 is a pile of money.

Did the system not work because it was not overhauled?

There are very difficult choices ahead. Any of those choices are going to have consequences.

If the decision was logical? I'm cool with it. If it was simply a political "take that!" moment, well, shame on them.

Interesting coincidence:

$700,000,000 = 1000 times the original amount of TARP funding.

No point to make there, but the coincidence is amusing.

48 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:50:52pm

Dead Island gameplay
Looks like it could be fun. I like the open world design instead of the usual running down a hallway blowing things up.

49 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:51:27pm

re: #40 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Lived over 2/3 of my life in CA, and half of the other 3rd in Japan. I know earthquakes.

I had fun with them from time to time. That series of earthquakes around 1992 when two different faults gave way in San Bernardino County on the same day was a blast. I was holding onto a wall and got a sense of the wave direction, and then jumped into the middle of the room and tried to "surf the quake".

My mother was not amused.

50 Interesting Times  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:52:12pm

re: #43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There have to be cuts somewhere. $700,000,000.00 is a pile of money.

It's nothing compared to tax cuts for the rich and subsidies for oil companies.

Did the system not work because it was not overhauled?

The people most in a position to know are telling you it WILL FAIL if it's NOT overhauled. Do you really want to take that kind of chance with people's lives?

There are very difficult choices ahead. Any of those choices are going to have consequences.

So why make a special effort to make the choice with the least possible degree of gain for a horrendous, obscene amount of pain?

If the decision was logical? I'm cool with it.

In no universe remotely connected to reality to a decision this pernicious and this stupid possibly be logical - unless you define "logical" as "herp derp, let's do whatever we can to sabotage climate research so the Killionaire Koch Brothers keep funding us!"

51 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:53:02pm

Meanwhile in Ireland
Image: 610x.jpg

52 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:53:10pm

re: #47 garhighway

I think you need to check your abacus.

53 Varek Raith  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:53:30pm

re: #49 celticdragon

I had fun with them from time to time. That series of earthquakes around 1992 when two different faults gave way in San Bernardino County on the same day was a blast. I was holding onto a wall and got a sense of the wave direction, and then jumped into the middle of the room and tried to "surf the quake".

My mother was not amused.

So...
You're crazy?
/
XD

54 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:54:11pm

re: #39 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And those who do not pay do not receive any warning---

55 Decatur Deb  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:54:16pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile in Ireland
Image: 610x.jpg

At least Irish girls don't draw the 'B' backwards...

56 Bulworth  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:54:37pm
There's also the option of increasing revenues (taxes) instead.

Our political and media elite believe that (1) no tax can be raised on anyone, ever; and that (2) it's a scandal that 47% of U.S. households don't owe any federal income tax liability once deductions and credits, etc are applied.

57 Targetpractice  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:55:28pm

re: #44 celticdragon

I had some genius at The Agitator tell me today that government imposition of fire codes on hotels is actual tyranny.

If you die because the hotel you stayed in had shitty safety practices and no fire escape, then the market will correct for it later, see?

Did you tell him that the workers at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory would beg to differ?

58 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:55:52pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

Lovely young woman. Very Gaelic face features.

Nice to see somebody applauding our President, and it is too bad that his trip will be mocked here at home.

I remember when the "politics stop at the water's edge" rule was still in effect.

59 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:56:19pm

re: #53 Varek Raith

So...
You're crazy?
/
XD

You catch your waves when you find them, right?

60 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:56:29pm

re: #46 kirkspencer

There are going to have to be both. I don't think that raising taxes on the rich only are getting us out of this.

I can deal with tax increases. Just like I can deal with oceanic tides. They're just gonna have to be.

61 darthstar  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:56:54pm
62 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:56:59pm

re: #44 celticdragon


A lot of purported fans of Adam Smith and the Free Market forget another famous quote from The Wealth of Nations: "Markets are there to serve the people: people are not there to serve the markets".

63 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:58:06pm

re: #57 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Did you tell him that the workers at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory would beg to differ?

They would say without missing a beat that private contracts between employers and employees are not reviewable by the government. The women and children consented to work in a death trap, so why should the rest of us care?

smh, walk away muttering.

64 Interesting Times  Mon, May 23, 2011 12:58:15pm

Raising taxes on millionaires and billionaires is tyranny, as is cutting taxpayer subsidies to rich oil companies. Let's cut funding for life-saving weather services instead, because wealthy industrialists don't live in tornado alley like collectivist parasites.

65 Varek Raith  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:01:05pm

re: #64 publicityStunted

I got the asteroid Vesta in a mass driver. Let me know when to fire.
Take that weirdo libertarians!

66 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:03:25pm

re: #65 Varek Raith

I got the asteroid Vesta in a mass driver. Let me know when to fire.
Take that weirdo libertarians!

The Vorlons, the Narn Regime and the Mimbari Counsel of Nine have categorically condemned the use of mass drivers on civilian targets.

67 dragonfire1981  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:03:59pm

What everyone needs to realize is that realistically we are going to need tax increases in some areas and spending cuts in others to get the debt under control.

68 Varek Raith  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:04:37pm

re: #66 celticdragon

The Vorlons, the Narn Regime and the Mimbari Counsel of Nine have categorically condemned the use of mass drivers on civilian targets.

Bite me.
-Shadow Thrall

69 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:06:51pm

"What do you want?"
Mr. Morden.

70 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:07:36pm

re: #67 dragonfire1981

What everyone needs to realize is that realistically we are going to need tax increases in some areas and spending cuts in others to get the debt under control.


Get out of here with your balanced, thought-out proposals. We accept only pure, unmitiaged ideological vitriol.

/

71 celticdragon  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:07:50pm

BBL. Have to get ready. Y'all be good :)

72 darthstar  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:08:19pm

Damnit...we're under attack by nerds...I knew I should have worn my pocket protector.

73 Kragar  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:08:36pm

re: #69 celticdragon

"What do you want?"
Mr. Morden.

I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this.
[gives a mockingly cheerful finger waggle]
Can you and your associates arrange this for me, Mr. Morden?

74 Varek Raith  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:11:56pm

re: #73 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Image: vlcsnap-651497.png

75 Kragar  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:14:25pm
76 What, me worry?  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:15:11pm

No surprise. Clinton earmarked millions to build up the levees in the Gulf of Mexico, and restore its wetlands devastated by erosion for so many years.

Here's a video (the audio is poor) where he's talking about it with some gulf residents after Katrina.

Those programs were nixed by Dubya when he came into office. Had they been followed, the hit from Katrina would have been significantly less.

I saw a PBS program about it in early 2000 which I can't find, but here is the best I can do quickly:

[Link: www.watereducation.org...]

77 wvng  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:17:31pm

"It may be impossible to say with certainty whether any particular case is directly attributable to climate change." Wrong. Every weather event that now occurs on the plant occurs in an atmosphere that is warmer and more moist than it used to be, an atmosphere that is more energetic than in the past. Every weather event is impacted by this more energized atmosphere.

78 What, me worry?  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:17:48pm

re: #76 marjoriemoon

Sorry... that article is mostly about California, but the funds extended to many projects all over the U.S.

79 Targetpractice  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:18:25pm

re: #67 dragonfire1981

What everyone needs to realize is that realistically we are going to need tax increases in some areas and spending cuts in others to get the debt under control.

And that's why I laugh whenever I hear a Republican talk about how they're taking the deficit/debt crisis "seriously" as they take turns fellating Paul Ryan and his "Plan." Said "Plan" is basically the GOP doubling down on every failed policy of the last 3 decades, from tax cuts to "reforms" that are nothing more than further privatization of government programs, promising that "this time," it'll all work out in our favor.

You know, like those people who keep arguing that there's nothing inherently wrong with communism, it's just that it's never been implemented by "the right people."

80 Kragar  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:18:53pm

Republicans ignored warnings on Paul Ryan plan

No matter how favorably pollsters with the Tarrance Group or other firms spun the bill in their pitch — casting it as the only path to saving the beloved health entitlement for seniors — the Ryan budget’s approval rating barely budged above the high 30s or its disapproval below 50 percent, according to a Republican operative familiar with the presentation.

The poll numbers on the plan were so toxic — nearly as bad as those of President Barack Obama’s health reform bill at the nadir of its unpopularity — that staffers with the National Republican Congressional Committee warned leadership, “You might not want to go there” in a series of tense pre-vote meetings.

But go there Republicans did, en masse and with rhetorical gusto — transforming the political landscape for 2012, giving Democrats a new shot at life and forcing the GOP to suddenly shift from offense to defense.

81 makeitstop  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:20:19pm

re: #61 darthstar

Fox is getting defensive...uh oh.

It is only the fact that she receives a paycheck from Ailes that is stopping her from a tantrum on Facebook or Twitter.

She must be ready to explode right now - insulted and unable to lash out.

82 Stanghazi  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:20:32pm

Wow, Jeffrey Goldberg got some hate mail via Gateway Pundit.

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

83 freetoken  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:21:56pm

re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Weather satellites are against God's plan.

Well, weather satellites usually gets a pass from the fundamentalists, but exploring space beyond the Earth has been frowned upon. E.g., Henry Morris' The Bounds of the Dominion Mandate. Also see (pdf) SPACE TRAVEL AND THE BIBLE

84 Kragar  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:23:51pm

re: #83 freetoken

Well, weather satellites usually gets a pass from the fundamentalists, but exploring space beyond the Earth has been frowned upon. E.g., Henry Morris' The Bounds of the Dominion Mandate. Also see (pdf) SPACE TRAVEL AND THE BIBLE

Dammit, how are people supposed to be struck down by an Act of God when they get warned about it?

85 freetoken  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:23:59pm

These satellites the GOP hate were planned to be replacements for aging long term programs, and these new satellites were part of a joint program with the DoD too.

86 wvng  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:24:57pm

I would add that every weather event that now occurs on the planet occurs in a political atmosphere where it is dangerous to the career of any scientist or teevee news reporter or republican politician to state clearly and without prevarication that climate change is real, that man is behind it, and that it is a huge threat. Three years ago many republicans could be and were sane about this threat. Three years ago, the Weather Channel routinely ran segments on climate change, putting weather into context.

Three years of all out assault on climate science by right wing media has made an honest discussion of this problem in the public sphere impossible.

87 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:26:11pm

re: #42 Varek Raith

Jersey barriers.
I saw it in a movie.

Hey, I saw Volcano with Tommy Lee Jones too!

/who knew that the La Brea Tar Pits is a supervolcano waiting to happen? ;-P

88 wrenchwench  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:26:13pm

re: #82 Stanley Sea

Wow, Jeffrey Goldberg got some hate mail via Gateway Pundit.

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

Looks like the stuff Charles gets, with the addition of "kapo" and "self-hating Jew" for spice. Also, more real-looking names appended.

89 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:30:50pm

re: #49 celticdragon

I had fun with them from time to time. That series of earthquakes around 1992 when two different faults gave way in San Bernardino County on the same day was a blast. I was holding onto a wall and got a sense of the wave direction, and then jumped into the middle of the room and tried to "surf the quake".

My mother was not amused.

In the big '89 quake, one of my friends was playing soccer in Golden Gate park, out in the middle of one of the big fields. He and his teammates dropped to the ground--standing was impossible--but he said you could actually see the waves coming across the open ground.

90 Amory Blaine  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:31:29pm

Pfft. Who needs things like volcano monitoring?

91 windsagio  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:32:28pm

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

yeah, that happened in the seattle '65 quake too.

92 Decatur Deb  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:32:40pm

re: #42 Varek Raith

Jersey barriers.
I saw it in a movie.

re: #87 talon_262

Hey, I saw Volcano with Tommy Lee Jones too!

/who knew that the La Brea Tar Pits is a supervolcano waiting to happen? ;-P

Just figured out your movie reference. The operations to drop concrete barriers into volcanoes are real. US Army supported an effort in the late 80's in Italy, and here is a report on a more recent mission:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

93 Varek Raith  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:33:31pm

re: #92 Decatur Deb

re: #87 talon_262

Just figured out your movie reference. The operations to drop concrete barriers into volcanoes are real. US Army supported an effort in the late 80's in Italy, and here is a report on a more recent mission:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Dammit Hollywood!
YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO GET THINGS WRONG!

/Thanks :)

94 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:34:32pm

re: #75 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Lisa Murkowski may not vote for Paul Ryan's Medicare plan

Good...more Republicans need to find their balls (or ovaries, as it were) and tell the rabid TPers (and their fellow travelers in Congress) to fuck off.

95 windsagio  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:35:38pm

oh also; where's the place it says they quit funding hte weather sattelites SPECIFICALLY because of GW science? Didn't see it linked in the article... but then again, just woke up ;)

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:36:12pm

re: #58 celticdragon

Lovely young woman. Very Gaelic face features.

Nice to see somebody applauding our President, and it is too bad that his trip will be mocked here at home.

I remember when the "politics stop at the water's edge" rule was still in effect.

She does have 'the' Irish face, doesn't she?

Much as the Irish tease the roots trippers, they get an enormous kick out of any successful American with Irish ancestry, so I imagine they'll love Obama to bit.

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:36:29pm

re: #60 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There are going to have to be both. I don't think that raising taxes on the rich only are getting us out of this.

I can deal with tax increases. Just like I can deal with oceanic tides. They're just gonna have to be.

How about raising taxes, period?

98 Decatur Deb  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:37:18pm

re: #94 talon_262

Good...more Republicans need to find their balls (or ovaries, as it were) and tell the rabid TPers (and their fellow travelers in Congress) to fuck off.

Sen Murkowski is my favorite Republican. She is carrying a 6-bushel sack of hate for the TPGOP leadership after the Miller fiasco.

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:37:28pm

re: #62 ralphieboy

A lot of purported fans of Adam Smith and the Free Market forget another famous quote from The Wealth of Nations: "Markets are there to serve the people: people are not there to serve the markets".

The book I really want to read is "PJ O'Rourke Reads 'The Wealth of Nations' So You Don't Have To'.

100 windsagio  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:37:54pm

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

each dollar you DON'T tax leads to 150$ of government income! Don't you know anything?!

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:38:41pm

re: #63 celticdragon

They would say without missing a beat that private contracts between employers and employees are not reviewable by the government. The women and children consented to work in a death trap, so why should the rest of us care?

smh, walk away muttering.

That's exactly what you get from the crazies. "They could have worked somewhere else."

But never, never, never should they have done what they did, which was go out on strike and not work until things got a little better. That's SOCIALISM.

102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:39:30pm

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

Tha's a lot of taxes...

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:40:02pm

re: #73 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this.
[gives a mockingly cheerful finger waggle]
Can you and your associates arrange this for me, Mr. Morden?

Vir is an absolutely wonderful character.

104 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:41:51pm

re: #79 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And that's why I laugh whenever I hear a Republican talk about how they're taking the deficit/debt crisis "seriously" as they take turns fellating Paul Ryan and his "Plan." Said "Plan" is basically the GOP doubling down on every failed policy of the last 3 decades, from tax cuts to "reforms" that are nothing more than further privatization of government programs, promising that "this time," it'll all work out in our favor.

You know, like those people who keep arguing that there's nothing inherently wrong with communism, it's just that it's never been implemented by "the right people."

You've met Paul Avakian's followers?

//I won't go near them. Too simultanously stupid and crazy. My poor father nearly exploded once, watching a girl at an anti-Israel protest yelling out 'people are DYING!!' while wearing a 'Revolutionary Communist Party' t-shirt.

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:42:55pm

re: #82 Stanley Sea

Wow, Jeffrey Goldberg got some hate mail via Gateway Pundit.

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

Lemme guess, they're POed that he defended Obama's speech?

106 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:44:00pm

You see, we're supposed to know when a hurricane hits us.

Open the door, check outside.
If the wind is swirling and howling, trees are falling, and it's raining, it's a hurricane. Or a bad storm.
Wait 'til it's over, then buy your supplies when the stores have no food (because the freezers and coolers have no electricity).

107 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:44:58pm

re: #102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Tha's a lot of taxes...

No, I mean, I have no particular hard-on for the rich. I think they should pay their share and often don't, but I also think much of the middle class could cough up a bit more. I could.

108 abolitionist  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:47:31pm

Ironically, the science of weather forecasting was established by a man who could be accurately described as a religious fundamentalist -- Robert Fitzroy.

In 1854, back at home, Fitzroy set about placing weather-observing equipment on ships in every port in England, eventually recruiting some eighty captains to make standardized measurements of the weather wherever their voyages took them. His nautical charts saved countless lives as they warned sailors of rough passages. He also devised the first truly scientific weather forecast, using the telegraph to transmit data from far-flung weather stations.

Fitzroy gathered the fruits of his long years of observation and experimentation in The Weather Book, published in 1862. Using his charts, the Times of London was the first publication to publish weather forecasts daily, though its editors were in the habit of blaming Fitzroy rather noisily when the forecasts were off. Indeed, Robert Fitzroy received little praise for his work in his own time, and he was obscured by the long shadow that Darwin cast. Melancholic, in poor health, and on the losing side of the evolutionary debate, he took his own life on April 30, 1865, at the age of 59. He was forgotten for years, but then happily rediscovered. Today the British government’s Meteorological Office and National Meteorological Library and Archive are located on Fitzroy Road in Exeter, England, and modern atmospheric scientists proudly acknowledge him as a pioneer of their discipline.

This was the man who invited Darwin on that famous voyage.

109 recusancy  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:49:21pm

re: #7 Alexzander

OT: Just lost a little respect for The Onion with this anti-Israel satire that reinforces a particularly dangerous meme:

Government Official Who Makes Perfectly Valid, Well-Reasoned Point Against Israel Forced To Resign

Seems pretty on the point to me. It's just mocking what we've seen over the last few days. Even Jeffrey Goldberg's getting hate mail.

110 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Mon, May 23, 2011 1:56:13pm

re: #45 celticdragon

One semester left to my degree in geology :)

On to grad school...

Gonna be a Rock Doc?

111 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, May 23, 2011 2:58:29pm

re: #109 recusancy

Seems pretty on the point to me. It's just mocking what we've seen over the last few days. Even Jeffrey Goldberg's getting hate mail.

You miss the point. It is one thing to expect rightwing or leftwing slamming and slander in the public arena for some stance on Israel. It is another to propagate the lie that the "Zionist Occupied Government" will fire you if you criticize Israel in any way.

112 Alexzander  Mon, May 23, 2011 3:04:49pm

re: #109 recusancy

re: #111 000G

I see both of your points and I'm conflicted. I just checked out Jeffrey Goldberg's recent writings (and collection of hate mail), and there is certainly a lot of uncessariy vitrol for what is a well-reasoned opinion. But I think 000G nailed it with the danger of encouraging a the kind of Jewish conspiracy type of thinking.

113 Romantic Heretic  Mon, May 23, 2011 3:23:11pm

re: #44 celticdragon

I had some genius at The Agitator tell me today that government imposition of fire codes on hotels is actual tyranny.

If you die because the hotel you stayed in had shitty safety practices and no fire escape, then the market will correct for it later, see?

What's that loon going to claim next? That laws against murder and rape are tyranny?

114 efuseakay  Mon, May 23, 2011 3:47:12pm

Uh oh. Diane Sawyer is about to touch on the global warming aspect...

115 efuseakay  Mon, May 23, 2011 3:51:35pm

Well. That wasn't much. Short version. GW is contributing to the floods/droughts/wildfires, but there isn't enough data now to include these tornados. And I forgot the climate scientist woman's name. Oops.

116 Achilles Tang  Mon, May 23, 2011 3:58:44pm

re: #62 ralphieboy

A lot of purported fans of Adam Smith and the Free Market forget another famous quote from The Wealth of Nations: "Markets are there to serve the people: people are not there to serve the markets".

I think it is a stupid sound byte (small).

Markets are not an abstract entity. Markets are just a definition of how people interact when they exchange stuff.

117 aceofwhat?  Mon, May 23, 2011 4:03:23pm

re: #115 efuseakay

Well. That wasn't much. Short version. GW is contributing to the floods/droughts/wildfires, but there isn't enough data now to include these tornados. And I forgot the climate scientist woman's name. Oops.

You can go further. GW is not expected to produce worse storm activity.

Temperate-region storms, generally speaking, are fueled in large part by temperature differentials. As AGW warms the poles much faster than the equator, temperature differentials are reduced, reducing one of the primary sources of fuel for severe storms.. It's perhaps one of the more well-understood facets of our climate and we keep forgetting it.

AGW is going to create enough nasty changes. There's no need to invent an additional one.

118 Obdicut  Mon, May 23, 2011 4:08:04pm

re: #117 aceofwhat?

Ace, why are you acting as though there's any sort of consensus on that information?

Some scientists are saying what you're saying. Many others are saying the increase in humidity overall is going to give a lot more weight and force to weather.

119 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 23, 2011 4:16:45pm

re: #118 Obdicut

Ace, why are you acting as though there's any sort of consensus on that information?

Some scientists are saying what you're saying. Many others are saying the increase in humidity overall is going to give a lot more weight and force to weather.

I quite disagree. What i wrote is, and has been for some time, the consensus. Some scientists are hypothesizing that increased humidity overall AND some additional variables may counteract or even overwhelm the reduced temperature differential.

But even the IPCC states that there is no statistically significant global hurricane trend as the temperature has increased. So we are much better off, as i said, focusing on the consequences of AGW that are much clearer and no less dire. Doing otherwise only serves to make our case appear thinner than it really is.

120 Obdicut  Mon, May 23, 2011 4:31:15pm

re: #119 Aceofwhat?

I quite disagree. What i wrote is, and has been for some time, the consensus.

Back that up.

121 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 23, 2011 4:31:26pm

re: #118 Obdicut

Ace, why are you acting as though there's any sort of consensus on that information?

Some scientists are saying what you're saying. Many others are saying the increase in humidity overall is going to give a lot more weight and force to weather.

For example, it appears to be relatively widely accepted that AGW will increase subtropical and perhaps also midlatitude static stability. Increased static stability is a hurricane counteragent.

It's also a reason to expect an expansion of very dry areas, and since we humans like to grow food, increased static stability in subtropical areas is no panacea. I just don't like straying too far from the straight and narrow on AGW when too many people still struggle to believe that it's getting warmer.

122 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 23, 2011 4:31:53pm

re: #121 Aceofwhat?

oops, forgot link.

[Link: www.atmos.washington.edu...]

123 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 23, 2011 4:32:20pm

re: #120 Obdicut

Back that up.

Are you kidding me? It's climate 101. Here, i'll google something. Be back in 30 seconds.

124 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 23, 2011 4:34:18pm

re: #120 Obdicut

Back that up.

Nasa quote.

Global warming could affect storm formation by decreasing the temperature difference between the poles and the equator. That temperature difference fuels the mid-latitude storms affect the Earth’s most populated regions. Warmer temperatures could increase the amount of water vapor that enters the atmosphere. The result is a hotter, more humid environment. At the equator, where conditions are already hot and humid, the change isn’t expected to be large. At the poles, however, the air is cold and dry; a little extra heat and water vapor could raise temperatures greatly. As a result, global warming may cause the temperature difference between the poles and the equator to decrease. and as the difference decreases, so should the number of storms, says George Tselioudis, a research scientist at NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) and Columbia University.

basic stuff, dude. be back in a minute.

125 Obdicut  Mon, May 23, 2011 4:39:43pm

re: #123 Aceofwhat?

Are you kidding me? It's climate 101. Here, i'll google something. Be back in 30 seconds.

Okay. Once again, your insanely contemptuous attitude leaves me with no desire to continue the conversation.

In order to prove a consensus, you don't cite a single person. You cite a metastudy that analyzes all the papers published on a subject and analyzes which theory is more heavily favored.

I have no idea why you think citing a single person establishes a consensus.

126 lostlakehiker  Mon, May 23, 2011 11:43:49pm

re: #86 wvng

I would add that every weather event that now occurs on the planet occurs in a political atmosphere where it is dangerous to the career of any scientist or teevee news reporter or republican politician to state clearly and without prevarication that climate change is real, that man is behind it, and that it is a huge threat. Three years ago many republicans could be and were sane about this threat. Three years ago, the Weather Channel routinely ran segments on climate change, putting weather into context.

Three years of all out assault on climate science by right wing media has made an honest discussion of this problem in the public sphere impossible.

An honest discussion would be careful to not lay tornadoes at the door of global warming. This is as yet unresolved. We do know that heat waves are linked to global warming. Every heat wave is made just that much worse by the added temperature bump. Near heat-waves become for-real heat waves.

At higher temperatures, what would have been just a dry spell verges into drought because evaporation proceeds faster. So in a sense, droughts are tied to global warming. And at higher temperatures, there's more evaporation from the ocean, which means more rainfall by and by, though maybe not where the drought is. Floods can be tied to global warming.

Short winters, with more survival of insect pests, are linked to global warming. Reduced wheat harvests etc etc.

But tornadoes? Maybe so, maybe not. We've had bad years before. If this goes on, and we get another such year fairly soon, the jury will be in. Til then, caution is in order.

127 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, May 24, 2011 4:55:17am

Excellent Post Charles.

You said pretty much everything that needed to be said.

I am planning a page about "extreme weather events."

128 studentpatriot  Tue, May 24, 2011 8:33:01am

US land temperature increase 1950-2010 (March-August) graph
US F3-F5 tornadoes 1950-2010 (March-August) graph

I wonder what their correlation looks like? link


Darn.

129 Interesting Times  Tue, May 24, 2011 8:49:30am

lol@denier shill who links to a creationist douche that whores himself out to oil companies.

130 studentpatriot  Tue, May 24, 2011 9:00:07am

re: #129 publicityStunted

Some people call it math. Even if it is compiled by a

creationist douche that whores himself out to oil companies.
131 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 24, 2011 9:14:53am

re: #130 studentpatriot

Some people call it math.

Roy Spencer is a creationist, and his pronouncements about climate science have ZERO credibility. He's helping the deniers confuse and mislead people, and you're shilling for him. Pathetic.

132 General Nimrod Bodfish  Tue, May 24, 2011 9:36:33am

re: #130 studentpatriot

Some people call it math.

Jesus nipples + peanut butter dingos = super happy hippie mcpot! See, it's math, people, so it's got to be legit! (/)

The thing is, that "math" isn't based on this reality or any other reality. Hell, my math equation is based on reality more that Spencer's.

The Joplin, MO tornado killed 118 people, making it the deadliest tornado in US history (since 1950, when the National Weather Service started keeping records on tornadoes), and the 8th deadliest tornado in US history (based off of unofficial records from before 1950).

But the horror doesn't end there: there has been 485 official deaths from tornadoes this year, making it the deadliest year of tornadoes since 1953, and we could surpass that mark and the (unofficial) record of ~794 killed in 1925, and we're about halfway finished with the year.

We are seeing the very real and very costly effects of global climate change, and yet you and others like you decide to completely ignore the reality and shove your heads into the sand while people are dying and weather records are breaking.

133 studentpatriot  Tue, May 24, 2011 10:23:03am

re: #131 Charles

I presented evidence that this post was false.

Several comments above mine also have warned that there is no evidence that AGW=more tornadoes, and stated that the opposite is probably true (#124, #126 etc.)

I have nothing to say about ad hominem attacks, but if there is some compelling scientific data correlating global warming with more tornadoes I am genuinely interested in reading about it.

134 Mr. Hammer  Tue, May 24, 2011 10:49:58am

A quick search of LGF for "Roy Spencer" only turned up a single comment, but I get the point that he's a quack. Could someone post a link that you respect regarding his credibility on the issue?

135 Obdicut  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:09:18am

re: #134 Mr. Hammer

Here.

[Link: bbickmore.wordpress.com...]

136 Mr. Hammer  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:10:49am

re: #135 Obdicut

Thanks!

137 Mr. Hammer  Tue, May 24, 2011 1:22:01pm

re: #135 Obdicut

Thanks Obdicut. Good article, followed by lots of interesting commentary. I am an engineer. I get the math, and understand specific heat, solar radiation, first order approximations, and forcing functions and all that, but I do not fully understand most of what is written about there. I suspect LVQ and others do. Curious, do you?

I recognize the disagreement regarding the assumption of 6 W/m2 C, etc in this paper, but that doesn't explain the assertion that Spencer has no credibility in regard to climate science. More to that story, no doubt. I have to do a lot more reading - including rooting around on LGF. The only text I've read so far is one recommened here by someone - "The Discovery of Global Warming" by Weart.

Thanks again. I'm gonna dig in to this in more detail one of these days...

138 freetoken  Tue, May 24, 2011 2:01:44pm

re: #134 Mr. Hammer

A quick search of LGF for "Roy Spencer" only turned up a single comment, but I get the point that he's a quack. Could someone post a link that you respect regarding his credibility on the issue?

As I've pointed out several times, when Spencer is forced (e.g., by journal editors) to play by the rules of science he does fine... it's when he's playing out in the world of the laity that he starts to go his own way, pushing his own religious and political views over those he can back up scientifically.

139 Mr. Hammer  Tue, May 24, 2011 2:21:05pm

re: #138 freetoken
Are you a scientist too, Freetoken?


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