Idaho Woman Arrested and Charged with ‘Unlawful Abortion’

The Republican Party’s total war on women’s rights gets truly ugly
US News • Views: 45,248

I don’t even know what to say about this sickening story: Idaho Woman Charged For Unlawful Abortion, Turned In By Anti-Choice Advocate.

Unable to afford the doctors visits and medical bills associated with an actual medical abortion, Jennie L. McCormack of Idaho instead had her sister purchase drugs online to ingest in order to cause a miscarriage.  McCormack, who is the mother of three, is now being charged with “unlawful abortion” according to the Associated Press.

If McCormack is found guilty, she could be subject to a $5000 penalty as well as up to five years in prison.

McCormack’s case is a sign of the true desperation of women in this country.  She said she believed she was only 14 weeks along, although the examination of the remains concluded it was more likely 20-25.  She is already a mother of more than one child, one still a toddler.  But financially she was cut off from any choice she wanted to make about how many people she wanted in her family, unable to procure an abortion she couldn’t afford, and now facing criminal penalties for taking the only option left to her.

According to the report, McCormack was turned into the police by the sister of on of her friends, a woman who stated “There’s other things she could have done. She could have asked for some type of help.”

But it’s obvious that the only “help” that was acceptable in this situation, according to the tipster, was to have the baby, and that the woman who contacted the police did it solely to punish McCormack.  “I’m a grandmother myself. And the love and the compassion I have for my grandkids? They’re my life. And I felt that if somebody didn’t speak up for this baby, who would? It doesn’t have a voice anymore,” Carnahan said.

The women’s movement needs to wake up and start fighting like it really matters. The hour is getting late.

Jump to bottom

613 comments
1 Kragar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:26:03pm

This is some fucking bullshit.

2 prairiefire  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:26:43pm

It has finally come to this.

3 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:28:50pm

What the hell happened to Roe V Wade? Has no one challenged this legally yet?

4 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:28:56pm

That's right. Put the woman in jail and make her toddler a ward of the state. What was that about fiscal responsibility?

5 Kragar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:29:18pm

Step 1) Eliminate all reasonable options
Step 2) Criminalize behavior outside the agenda
Step 3) SALVATION

6 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:31:13pm

re: #3 Rightwingconspirator

What the hell happened to Roe V Wade? Has no one challenged this legally yet?

I'm betting she will have a full legal team. And I know she AP said she is charged with "Unlawful Abortion". I wonder if the DA will change it to a drug charge when the hammer falls on this case.

7 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:31:40pm

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Step 1) Eliminate all reasonable options
Step 2) Criminalize behavior outside the agenda
Step 3) SALVATION

Step 4) More unwanted Children
Step 5) More crime and wasted lives

8 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:31:41pm

re: #6 Cannadian Club Akbar

The= she, pimf.

9 Archangelus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:32:23pm

I'm no feminist, but this really is all out war on the part of the GOP.
When will Democratic leadership wake the frak up and react to this?

10 webevintage  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:32:25pm

I wonder if the woman her turned her in is going to care for the 3 children left behind?

11 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:32:52pm

they are on the march and they are everywhere...the feds simply must step in and get this abortion thing righted before people start dying....patients this time...state law cannot do this

12 Kragar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:33:00pm

re: #7 Surabaya Stew

Step 4) More unwanted Children
Step 5) More crime and wasted lives

For the good of the economy and social security!

13 Kefirah  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:33:14pm

as a pro.choice woman, i will freely admit that it's a bit disturbing that she fraudulently purchased drugs over the internet to induce an abortion. i would have major beef with someone purchasing lorazepam over the internet in my name, or asking me to do so [sort of begs the question - why wasn't her sister charged? that's the stench on this - sister as accessory to fraud and not charged, which reveals the whole agenda]. i think if she were being charged with that - namely, fraudulently purchasing controlled substances [assuming they WERE controlled substances] - i wouldn't really be able to say anything.***

of course, i have PLENTY to say due to the overall environment for the rights of women, and most of it would get me in trouble with the f.c.c. were i to say it on television. just know that shift + my numbers row would get extreme use.

*** also aware that she likely HAD no choice but to fraudulently purchase drugs due to idaho abortion laws, but i have no legal context for that at this moment.

14 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:33:40pm
The women’s movement needs to wake up. The hour is getting late.

The women's movement has been fighting back and smashing windows for at about 100 years now. The rest of America needs to wake up.

15 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:34:07pm

This post is taking off on Twitter. I hope it wakes up America's women and makes them realize that their rights are in real peril, before it's too late.

I can't believe how crazy this shit is getting.

16 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:34:31pm

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Step 1) Eliminate all reasonable options
Step 2) Criminalize behavior outside the agenda
Step 3) SALVATION

re: #7 Surabaya Stew

Step 4) More unwanted Children
Step 5) More crime and wasted lives

Step 6) Greatly increased gov't debt due to the giant influx of prisoners and children being shoved into the system.

17 Archangelus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:35:06pm

re: #15 Charles

I can't believe how crazy this shit is getting.

Right there with ya, Charles...

18 Interesting Times  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:35:38pm

re: #7 Surabaya Stew

Step 4) More unwanted Children
Step 5) More crime and wasted lives

profits for the private prisons!!1!

Fixed.

19 Kefirah  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:35:52pm

re: #15 Charles

do we know if her sister has been charged with anything at all? that's where things get EXTREMELY rotten in denmark [as if they weren't putrid enough already].

20 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:36:02pm

it's not what this particular woman has done out of desperation...the entire legal paradigm is crazy fucked up

21 boxhead  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:36:09pm

As I said in the previous thread when this came up,

horrible... The crazies will not be happy until women are back at home, bare foot and pregnant...

22 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:36:22pm

re: #12 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

For the good of the economy and social security!

But its what we think it God's will should be. is!
/

23 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:37:25pm

re: #16 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #7 Surabaya Stew


Step 6) Greatly increased gov't debt due to the giant influx of prisoners and children being shoved into the system.

Step 7) Anything to advance the conservative movement forward....wait, what?

24 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:37:27pm

where are the legal minds...anybody here?

25 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:37:27pm

20-24 weeks along. This is not so simple.

And to reiterate, I'm pro choice.

26 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:38:36pm

Maybe Michele Bachman will stand up and say that she would have adopted the child if it were born. Now that I say that, I'll bet on it. Know your base.

27 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:39:11pm

re: #23 Surabaya Stew

Step 7) Anything to advance the conservative movement forward...wait, what?

Theocrats pretending to be conservatives. Don't let them fool ya.

28 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:40:17pm
If McCormack is found guilty, she could be subject to a $5000 penalty as well as up to five years in prison.


Interesting. Back when LGF was a right wing blog I recall sking the more conservative lizards what the penalties should be for women who get abortions, They pretty much all universally assured me that women would not be charged, only doctors who provide the service.

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:40:39pm

re: #13 Kefirah

as a pro.choice woman, i will freely admit that it's a bit disturbing that she fraudulently purchased drugs over the internet to induce an abortion. i would have major beef with someone purchasing lorazepam over the internet in my name, or asking me to do so [sort of begs the question - why wasn't her sister charged? that's the stench on this - sister as accessory to fraud and not charged, which reveals the whole agenda]. i think if she were being charged with that - namely, fraudulently purchasing controlled substances [assuming they WERE controlled substances] - i wouldn't really be able to say anything.***

of course, i have PLENTY to say due to the overall environment for the rights of women, and most of it would get me in trouble with the f.c.c. were i to say it on television. just know that shift + my numbers row would get extreme use.

*** also aware that she likely HAD no choice but to fraudulently purchase drugs due to idaho abortion laws, but i have no legal context for that at this moment.

I want RWMofo to come back and tell us about how this is just how things are in Idaho, nothing to see folks...

30 webevintage  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:41:45pm

OT, but not really.
I found out tonight our local sheriff, who I voted for, is going to join the local GOP. I let him know that no matter how good of a job he was doing he had lost both mine and my husbands vote because we will no longer vote for anyone who is willing to align themselves with the GOP local, state or nationally.
Sorry, all their hate and crazy is splashing on some good people.
His statement was that the GOP represented his "values"?

What values? The values that say women should be forced into unsafe abortions to obtain an abortion which is their LEGAL RIGHT in this country? How about the right wing nuts who want to make the fetus a person at conception which means all birth control would be illegal? Or maybe the morons in Washington who are more worried about what goes on in my uterus then jobs?

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:41:54pm

re: #14 Alexzander

The women's movement has been fighting back and smashing windows for at about 100 years now. The rest of America needs to wake up.

The women's movement is in a slight coma at the moment. Women my age fought over whether wearing lipstick while cussing was enough to make you a feminist. Our daughters think feminists are something that happened in the olden days.

(Slightly bitter slightly BITTER!!!!)

32 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:42:07pm

wow, the uterus gestapo needs to go fuck itself

33 Kragar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:42:38pm

It is all about jobs. The anti-choice advocate who set up the road blocks, the cops who took the informants tip, the social workers who'll take the kids, the corrections officers who guard the woman while in jail.

JOBS!

34 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:43:01pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

And when they started banning smoking on airplanes they said "Oh, no. Just the planes. We won't be coming after the restaurants and bars".

Not that I endorse smoking on airplanes. Just sayin'.

35 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:43:07pm

re: #13 Kefirah

as a pro.choice woman, i will freely admit that it's a bit disturbing that she fraudulently purchased drugs over the internet to induce an abortion.

No, it's not disturbing. It's horrific. She was forced into this choice because there was NO OTHER OPTION.

This is where America used to be, before Roe v. Wade. And we're heading back there at warp speed.

And this is why I'll never vote for a Republican again.

36 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:43:24pm

so there is a civilian network of amateur Snitches For God....chilling thought

37 boxhead  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:43:45pm

re: #34 Slumbering Behemoth

And when they started banning smoking on airplanes they said "Oh, no. Just the planes. We won't be coming after the restaurants and bars".

Not that I endorse smoking on airplanes. Just sayin'.

oh... I like no smoking in restaurants!!!!!

38 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:44:16pm

re: #25 researchok

20-24 weeks along. This is not so simple.

And to reiterate, I'm pro choice.

But it wasn't always 20-24 weeks along. That's kind of the point.

39 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:44:48pm

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

The women's movement is in a slight coma at the moment. Women my age fought over whether wearing lipstick while cussing was enough to make you a feminist. Our daughters think feminists are something that happened in the olden days.

(Slightly bitter slightly BITTER!!!)

In some circles, feminism is a live and vivid. I owe a lot of my world view to the insights carved out by feminist philosophers. Many of the deepest insights into hierarchical oppression (which is to say, all forms of oppression) come from the feminist literature.

40 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:45:16pm

re: #37 boxhead

Fuck off, hippie!
/

41 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:45:27pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Interesting. Back when LGF was a right wing blog I recall sking the more conservative lizards what the penalties should be for women who get abortions, They pretty much all universally assured me that women would not be charged, only doctors who provide the service.

Its always about making the victom pay.

42 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:45:35pm

re: #35 Charles

No, it's not disturbing. It's horrific. She was forced into this choice because there was NO OTHER OPTION.

This is where America used to be, before Roe v. Wade. And we're heading back there at warp speed.

And this is why I'll never vote for a Republican again.

right, she was funneled along through a series of obvious choices out of desperation...in other words she was set up and trapped

43 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:45:48pm

The tragedy and outrage is that she had no where to go from the onset.

Her choice at 20-24 weeks (a bad choice) only highlights the need for a coherent abortion policy in this country. This is necesary as the age of viability decreases.

We can't hang these women out to dry.

44 Kefirah  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:46:21pm

re: #35 Charles

fair point, sir. for here's a chart for those who want a quick outline of what you CAN do you with your uterus in idaho.

still sounds a bit better than texas. the lone star state and rick perry have been kicking women while we're down.

45 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:46:33pm

re: #34 Slumbering Behemoth

And when they started banning smoking on airplanes they said "Oh, no. Just the planes. We won't be coming after the restaurants and bars".

Not that I endorse smoking on airplanes. Just sayin'.

I do however, endorse smoking in some bars. Haven't lived in a city that allows it for years though. I am lucky however, in that I find tobacco to be entirely non-addictive, so I can just enjoy a cigarette or two now and then.

46 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:47:09pm

re: #43 researchok

The tragedy and outrage is that she had no where to go from the onset.

Her choice at 20-24 weeks (a bad choice) only highlights the need for a coherent abortion policy in this country. This is necesary as the age of viability decreases.

We can't hang these women out to dry.

She made this choice at 20-24 weeks because the Republican Party has closed off all other options.

47 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:47:47pm

re: #45 Alexzander

I do however, endorse smoking in some bars. Haven't lived in a city that allows it for years though. I am lucky however, in that I find tobacco to be entirely non-addictive, so I can just enjoy a cigarette or two now and then.

And now I hate your guts.
/

48 boxhead  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:48:07pm

re: #40 Slumbering Behemoth

Fuck off, hippie!
/

lol... being lactose intolerant, I can fight back against smoke! Glass of milk, 15 minutes and you'er toast! LOL

49 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:48:23pm

re: #7 Surabaya Stew

Step 4) More unwanted Children
Step 5) More crime and wasted lives

Common attitude among unwanted (real or perceived) children - "I didn't ask to be born."

50 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:48:50pm

re: #43 researchok

Agreed. It also underscores the need for women's health services in general, if she was that ignorant of the conditions of her own pregnancy.

I'd also like to note that I think part of the problem is that a lot of these laws are going down in the 'fly-over' states, with relatively low populations.

I get plenty of emails from Planned Parenthood, and I've heard some Democrats speak out about it, but it needs to get raised in profile. The people suffering now are the poor and the dispossessed, and they don't have the loudest voice in our money-fueled political process.

51 elizajane  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:49:45pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Interesting. Back when LGF was a right wing blog I recall sking the more conservative lizards what the penalties should be for women who get abortions, They pretty much all universally assured me that women would not be charged, only doctors who provide the service.

But once there ARE no doctors who provide abortions, the only person left to perform their own abortion and take the penalty is the woman.

See Page about the woman who almost died because nobody in a hospital wanted to get involved in dealing with her ongoing miscarriage (as she nearly bled to death) and the vicious attack on her by the right wing for telling this story, which they have decided is a complete fabrication. Both the original event and the personal evisceration of her character afterwards are completely repulsive and all too typical of where the Right has gone to now.

52 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:50:00pm

re: #47 Slumbering Behemoth

And now I hate your guts.
/

Sorry I know its not fair. If it makes you feel any better, I come from a family of alcoholics (lost two grandparents, both parents also struggle) and I understand that addiction potential (personally) plenty well!

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:50:18pm

re: #39 Alexzander

In some circles, feminism is a live and vivid. I owe a lot of my world view to the insights carved out by feminist philosophers. Many of the deepest insights into hierarchical oppression (which is to say, all forms of oppression) come from the feminist literature.

I know. Sigh.

I just get upset now and then.

54 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:51:04pm

re: #46 Charles

She made this choice at 20-24 weeks because the Republican Party has closed off all other options.

Agreed.

You can be pro life and still have a workable abortion policy.

First trimester abortions, morning after pills, etc, are a reasonable and responsible ideas.

I'm on the Hillary plan. Abortion needs to be safe, legal and rare.

55 Kefirah  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:51:08pm

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

this would certainly seem an appropriate time to get upset. it's a shanda of the most disturbing sort.

56 boxhead  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:51:40pm

re: #54 researchok

Agreed.

You can be pro life and still have a workable abortion policy.

First trimester abortions, morning after pills, etc, are a reasonable and responsible ideas.

I'm on the Hillary plan. Abortion needs to be safe, legal and rare.

Amen to that......

57 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:51:48pm

re: #25 researchok

20-24 weeks along. This is not so simple.

And to reiterate, I'm pro choice.

Desperation can induce bad choices.

58 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:51:50pm

re: #54 researchok

Agreed.

59 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:51:54pm

re: #52 Alexzander

Yeah, I drink a lot too. You are really gunning to get to the top of my shit list, aren't you?

/kidding

60 Kefirah  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:52:11pm

re: #54 researchok

sing it.

61 webevintage  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:52:25pm

It is very easy to make a mistake on how pregnant you might be.
I was much farther along in my pregnancy because of weird cycles so slight spotting just meant "Oh look, another period" when actually I was at least a month or so pregnant and spotting (which went away).

62 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:52:40pm

re: #59 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm on my second drink and its not even 7pm :P

63 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:53:15pm

re: #62 Alexzander

I'm on my second drink and its not even 7pm :P

Pussy. Catch up.
/

64 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:53:18pm

everyone should have a mandatory shot administered that renders them unable to have children until a temporary antidote is administered for when they want to have children.

65 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:54:09pm

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

I know. Sigh.

I just get upset now and then.

If it makes you feel any better, the vast majority of young women (

66 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:54:58pm

re: #64 SpaceJesus

everyone should have a mandatory shot administered that renders them unable to have children until a temporary antidote is administered for when they want to have children.

Not everyone - for some the whole moral tension is part of life. But some kind of option would be great.

67 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:55:04pm

re: #34 Slumbering Behemoth

And when they started banning smoking on airplanes they said "Oh, no. Just the planes. We won't be coming after the restaurants and bars".

Not that I endorse smoking on airplanes. Just sayin'.

First they came for the smokers. Then they came for the gum chewers.

That made my day.

68 kreyagg  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:55:08pm

re: #54 researchok

Agreed.

You can be pro life and still have a workable abortion policy.

First trimester abortions, morning after pills, etc, are a reasonable and responsible ideas.

I'm on the Hillary plan. Abortion needs to be safe, legal and rare.

How about if it isn't your uterus it's none of your business?

69 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:55:34pm

re: #63 Slumbering Behemoth

Pussy. Catch up.
/

I'm trying to go slow as I haven't had dinner yet and I want to live till 30.

70 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:55:56pm

re: #64 SpaceJesus

Mandatory? Fuck it. Why not just go full on eugenics while we're at it.

Seriously, what causes such things to pop into your head and hit your keyboard without any of your personal filters catching it?

71 steve_davis  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:55:58pm

This is why we have juries. The judge certainly isn't going to discuss jury nullification in his instructions, but if I were the defense attorney, I damned well would, and if I got cited for contempt, I'd have the judge in front of a disciplinary panel, because there isn't a damned thing about jury nullification that goes outside what a jury is empowered to do. Judges hate it. Prosecutors hate it. But juries can tell the state to take their crappy statutes and shove them.

72 boxhead  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:55:59pm

re: #64 SpaceJesus

everyone should have a mandatory shot administered that renders them unable to have children until a temporary antidote is administered for when they want to have children.

sounds great at first..... but forcing people into medical procedures is a dangerous path to tread.

73 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:56:08pm

re: #69 Alexzander

I'm trying to go slow as I haven't had dinner yet and I want to live till 30.

30 is overrated. Have a drink.

74 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:56:18pm

I'm kind of numb.

The amount and cascade of tragedy for this one family is just unfathomable.

It isn't about this one case, one fetus or one woman. How many others out there are faced with these impossible situations?

By the way, kudos to wrenchwench for highlighting to me the gravity of the situation in the flover states. I had no idea how bad the situation really was.

75 Targetpractice  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:56:40pm

This was the section that turned my stomach:

But it’s obvious that the only “help” that was acceptable in this situation, according to the tipster, was to have the baby, and that the woman who contacted the police did it solely to punish McCormack. “I’m a grandmother myself. And the love and the compassion I have for my grandkids? They’re my life. And I felt that if somebody didn’t speak up for this baby, who would? It doesn’t have a voice anymore,” Carnahan said.

Yes, she'll "speak up" for the baby, but she's not going to be there to help care for it. She's not going to be giving money, food, clothing, or anything that McCormack would have needed. And that's what sickens me to no end about the anti-abortion crowd: They're all for protecting that "baby" right up until it leaves the womb, after which they wash their hands of it.

76 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:57:25pm

re: #67 b_sharp

First they came for the smokers.

And lo, there were easy to find. Because of all the wheezing.

77 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:57:27pm

re: #66 Alexzander

nope. everyone. you don't have the shot, you get fined. think of it like a seat belt law.

78 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:57:55pm

This story backs up the fact that the Democrats need to change strategy and become far more brutal in counter-attacking. Show them what Culture War means.

And, while we're at it, get rid of that little fruit Kucinich.

79 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:58:10pm

re: #64 SpaceJesus

everyone should have a mandatory shot administered that renders them unable to have children until a temporary antidote is administered for when they want to have children.

Making Stalin look good.

80 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:59:01pm

re: #70 Slumbering Behemoth

yup. im full-on mandatory vaccines too.

81 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:59:03pm

re: #77 SpaceJesus

nope. everyone. you don't have the shot, you get fined. think of it like a seat belt law.

must...resist...temptation...to.down...ding....

82 boxhead  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:59:05pm

re: #77 SpaceJesus

nope. everyone. you don't have the shot, you get fined. think of it like a seat belt law.

nope.... unfortunately, people are not livestock and thus should be able to do what they want as long as they do not infringe upon the Rights of others.

83 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:59:39pm

re: #35 Charles

No, it's not disturbing. It's horrific. She was forced into this choice because there was NO OTHER OPTION.

This is where America used to be, before Roe v. Wade. And we're heading back there at warp speed.

And this is why I'll never vote for a Republican again.

F'ing frightening, is all I can say, without getting the stick.
Horrific.

84 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 6:59:46pm

re: #77 SpaceJesus

nope. everyone. you don't have the shot, you get fined. think of it like a seat belt law.

I'm not a Catholic, (or even a Christian) but I think thats highly offensive to their world-view.

85 steve_davis  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:00:27pm

re: #9 Archangelus

I'm no feminist, but this really is all out war on the part of the GOP.
When will Democratic leadership wake the frak up and react to this?

If it makes you feel better, Harry Reid actually called Mitch McConnell an idiot on the Senate floor today. Actually he was careful not to directly call McConnell an idiot. Instead, he asked rhetorically if the senator were an idiot, and then several times stated that what McConnell had said about the balancing of the federal budget being like a family budgeting while sitting around the kitchen table was moronic. So Democrats do occasionally take some sweet shots. I'm hoping privately that the Biden commission has absolutely no plans to actually arrive at the cuts wanted by Republicans for a debt-ceiling raise. Just play it out, and then dare the Republicans to let the government default.

86 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:00:33pm

re: #51 elizajane

But once there ARE no doctors who provide abortions, the only person left to perform their own abortion and take the penalty is the woman.

See Page about the woman who almost died because nobody in a hospital wanted to get involved in dealing with her ongoing miscarriage (as she nearly bled to death) and the vicious attack on her by the right wing for telling this story, which they have decided is a complete fabrication. Both the original event and the personal evisceration of her character afterwards are completely repulsive and all too typical of where the Right has gone to now.

Quoted for the horror & truth of it.

87 sod  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:00:36pm

re: #74 researchok

By the way, kudos to wrenchwench for highlighting to me the gravity of the situation in the flover states. I had no idea how bad the situation really was.

It's getting to the point where you can't even walk your dog without him digging a fetus out of the bushes.

Something needs to be done.

88 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:00:38pm

Planned Parenthood filed suit last week to stop the anti-abortion laws in South Dakota

PIERRE, S.D. — Planned Parenthood filed a lawsuit in federal court yesterday seeking to block a South Dakota law that would require women seeking abortions to face the nation’s longest waiting period — three days — and undergo counseling at pregnancy help centers that discourage abortion.

The lawsuit asks a federal judge to suspend the law until a final ruling on whether it violates a woman’s constitutional right to abortion established under the US Supreme Court’s 1973 ruling in Roe v. Wade. The law is set to take effect July1.

[Link: articles.boston.com...]

Something to watch.

89 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:01:00pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Interesting. Back when LGF was a right wing blog I recall sking the more conservative lizards what the penalties should be for women who get abortions, They pretty much all universally assured me that women would not be charged, only doctors who provide the service.

I remember this too-- not here, but on many anti-abortion websites, and my few friends who were anti-abortion. They always insisted that they were, in fact, concerned with the women who were being taken advantage of by the 'abortion industry', and that criminalization of the women doing that would, of course, make no sense.

Guess what? It still makes no sense. And it's happening.

90 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:01:11pm

re: #80 SpaceJesus

yup. im full-on mandatory vaccines too.

I guess you're too stupid to see the difference between mandatory vaccinations and mandatory sterilizations, and all the latter implies.

How very sad.

91 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:01:35pm

If that woman needs some donations for her legal defense, I'll whip out my checkbook straight up.

92 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:01:43pm

I am convinced that these laws are not about protecting unborn life. They are about paternalistic control of society, about imposing rules that will keep women in the role of producing offspring at their husband's whim, about making sure there are rules that can be brought to bear to punish anybody, at any time, for most anything. Sound familiar? It's fascism. That's why Nazis make GB cry - it's yearning, not fear.

93 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:01:56pm

re: #82 boxhead


there are plenty of instances where the compelling interests of society outweigh individual whims.

94 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:02:22pm

re: #89 Obdicut

I remember this too-- not here, but on many anti-abortion websites, and my few friends who were anti-abortion. They always insisted that they were, in fact, concerned with the women who were being taken advantage of by the 'abortion industry', and that criminalization of the women doing that would, of course, make no sense.

Guess what? It still makes no sense. And it's happening.

I guess you haven't heard about the recent abortionplex.

95 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:02:32pm

re: #82 boxhead

nope... unfortunately, people are not livestock and thus should be able to do what they want as long as they do not infringe upon the Rights of others.

SJ put up the one idea more frightening than the GOP beating back Roe V Wade.

96 kreyagg  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:02:33pm

re: #84 Alexzander

I'm not a Catholic, (or even a Christian) but I think thats highly offensive to their world-view.

Religious views belong in church and nowhere else. Religious views are what is causing this problem.

97 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:02:48pm

re: #87 sod

Federal action, combined with punitive measures against organizations pushing this tripe.

Take away the tax-exempt status of Focus on the Family. Also, withhold all money from Liberty University and the like. Hurt their wallet.

98 boxhead  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:04:01pm

re: #93 SpaceJesus

there are plenty of instances where the compelling interests of society outweigh individual whims.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or one?

I do think my position can fit into modern society's needs and concerns.

99 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:04:21pm

re: #90 Slumbering Behemoth


it's you who is apparently too stupid to recognized the difference between sterilization and the temporary thing i am talking about.

100 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:04:57pm

re: #87 sod

It's getting to the point where you can't even walk your dog without him digging a fetus out of the bushes.

Something needs to be done.

Please drop in from orbit and explain.

101 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:05:18pm

re: #96 kreyagg

Religious views belong in church and nowhere else. Religious views are what is causing this problem.

Christian individuals deserve the right to live a life where they consciously accept the weight and responsibility of sexual intercourse.

102 kreyagg  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:05:35pm

re: #99 SpaceJesus

it's you who is apparently too stupid to recognized the difference between sterilization and the temporary thing i am talking about.

I think he's worried about the same thing that I would be, who gets to be the gate keeper?

103 webevintage  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:05:42pm

re: #74 researchok


By the way, kudos to wrenchwench for highlighting to me the gravity of the situation in the flover states. I had no idea how bad the situation really was.


I think we only have two Doctors in the state of Arkansas who perform elective abortions and work out of the Little Rock Family Planning Clinic.
Might be only one.
Dr. Harrison retired because he had cancer and then passed away not long after.

104 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:05:50pm

re: #98 boxhead

it's a balancing test.

you wouldn't be giving up anything with this new law, you could still have kids.

105 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:06:19pm

re: #99 SpaceJesus

it's you who is apparently too stupid to recognized the difference between sterilization and the temporary thing i am talking about.

I don't know, SJ - forcing anybody into any kind of non-essential medical procedure is pretty Orwellian, imho. I can't see any similarity to vaccinations here; you are simply imposing a societal control on reproductive rights. How is that any different that attacking Roe?

106 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:06:37pm

re: #96 kreyagg

Religious views belong in church and nowhere else. Religious views are what is causing this problem.

PS I'm an atheist and a strong believer in the separation of church and state, but I think enforced sterilization (even if temporary) infringes on personal and religious freedom.

107 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:07:28pm

re: #35 Charles

I've made sure, that my 3 teenage nieces, understand, that Auntie is available to help with WHATEVER their problem is. I don't want a 16 year old, pregnant, not to have choices. And, choices that don't ruin their lives, like not being able to have a safe, abortion. Or safe adoption.

108 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:07:45pm

re: #103 webevintage

I think we only have two Doctors in the state of Arkansas who perform elective abortions and work out of the Little Rock Family Planning Clinic.
Might be only one.
Dr. Harrison retired because he had cancer and then passed away not long after.

County hospitals ought to be mandated to provide elective abortion services.

109 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:07:45pm

re: #106 Alexzander

Enforced sterilization has a long and ugly history. They still are doing it to the Roma in Eastern Europe.

110 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:07:49pm

re: #99 SpaceJesus

it's you who is apparently too stupid to recognized the difference between sterilization and the temporary thing i am talking about.

One, there is no such "magic temporary sterilization shot" that you wish could be forced upon others.

Two, you're head is currently so far up your ass that you can't see you're endorsing a form of eugenics, and all that that practice implies.

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:08:00pm

re: #61 webevintage

It is very easy to make a mistake on how pregnant you might be.
I was much farther along in my pregnancy because of weird cycles so slight spotting just meant "Oh look, another period" when actually I was at least a month or so pregnant and spotting (which went away).

When one of my college friends was pregnant with her first, they did an ultrasound and then called her in, Very Solemnly, to say that the baby was much smaller than he was supposed to be.

Panic. Panic. And then, eventually, realizing that they really hadn't believed her when she explained how irregular and unpredictable her cycles were, and had assigned the baby a conception date that was a good month earlier than he'd actually been started. He was fine, they were just assuming a gestational age at least four weeks off his actual age.

(He's in high school now. Fairly big, actually.)

112 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:08:12pm

re: #107 Floral Giraffe

Thats awesome.

113 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:08:15pm

re: #106 Alexzander

PS I'm an atheist and a strong believer in the separation of church and state, but I think enforced sterilization (even if temporary) infringes on personal and religious freedom.

Unless you are a pedophile. In which case, I am a proponent of chemical sterilization.

114 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:08:26pm

re: #92 imp_62

I am convinced that these laws are not about protecting unborn life. They are about paternalistic control of society, about imposing rules that will keep women in the role of producing offspring at their husband's whim, about making sure there are rules that can be brought to bear to punish anybody, at any time, for most anything. Sound familiar? It's fascism. That's why Nazis make GB cry - it's yearning, not fear.

read CJ's link upthread...Quiverfull

115 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:09:27pm

re: #109 Obdicut

Enforced sterilization has a long and ugly history. They still are doing it to the Roma in Eastern Europe.

I'm aware; I've been a TA for biomedical ethics and covered the issue pretty extensively.

116 boxhead  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:09:27pm

re: #104 SpaceJesus

it's a balancing test.

you wouldn't be giving up anything with this new law, you could still have kids.

yes, but I really dislike laws that are meant to protect against stupidity. Like what happens when 50 people have fun at something without any problems. Then one jackass comes along and gets hurt or hurts someone else. Next you know, that "something" is outlawed. I really hate those kind of laws.

117 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:09:30pm

re: #109 Obdicut

Enforced sterilization has a long and ugly history. They still are doing it to the Roma in Eastern Europe.

Oh, but in this magical world, it would only be temporary. Like a hike in sales tax.

118 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:09:38pm

re: #76 Slumbering Behemoth

And lo, there were easy to find. Because of all the wheezing.

Garrison Keillor wrote a piece once--letters from a smoker to her children, as she and a last few holdouts hide from police helicopters.

119 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:09:55pm

re: #109 Obdicut

Enforced sterilization has a long and ugly history. They still are doing it to the Roma in Eastern Europe.

and in central Africa teens are kidnapped to produce babies....for sale

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:10:21pm

re: #79 Rightwingconspirator

Making Stalin look good.

Not really, no. I mean SJ is being ridiculous, and what he's proposing is unacceptable, but Stalin coordinated mass starvation.

121 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:10:24pm

re: #110 Slumbering Behemoth


1. no shit


2. look up the word eugenics, my plan has nothing to do with race or ethnicity

122 webevintage  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:10:33pm

re: #119 albusteve

and in central Africa teens are kidnapped to produce babies...for sale

Ugh.
I just read about that....
Horrible.

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:10:53pm

re: #81 Alexzander

must...resist...temptation...to.down...ding...

Oh, go for it. People used to down-ding SpaceJesus until his head spun. And when he said stuff like "Hello", too.

It will be like the old days.

124 kreyagg  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:10:58pm

re: #106 Alexzander

PS I'm an atheist and a strong believer in the separation of church and state, but I think enforced sterilization (even if temporary) infringes on personal and religious freedom.

I understand and agree.
Sterilization was not proposed, though it would wind up being de facto for those deemed undesirable.

125 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:12:50pm

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, go for it. People used to down-ding SpaceJesus until his head spun. And when he said stuff like "Hello", too.

It will be like the old days.

Heh, I guess so... I just think downdings hurt emotionally more than anyone wants to admit. I'm also not sure they are good for open conversation. I'm trying to only spread positive karma.

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:12:56pm

re: #84 Alexzander

I'm not a Catholic, (or even a Christian) but I think thats highly offensive to their world-view.

For some reason I'm recalling a family friend, who married (in the Catholic Church, and for the second time) at the age of sixty. She and her new husband were both middle-aged people on their second marriages, but they had to do the pre-Cana stuff with the kiddies anyway.

The priest had to do the line to them about being open to conception. They looked at one another, shrugged, and said, "OK, Father."

127 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:12:58pm

re: #122 webevintage

Ugh.
I just read about that...
Horrible.

yeah, I'm not surprised, but the authorities are so corrupt in Nigeria that anything is possible

128 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:13:19pm

re: #93 SpaceJesus

there are plenty of instances where the compelling interests of society outweigh individual whims.

Songs of the tyrants.

129 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:13:41pm

re: #125 Alexzander

Heh, I guess so... I just think downdings hurt emotionally more than anyone wants to admit. I'm also not sure they are good for open conversation. I'm trying to only spread positive karma.

Damn hippie

130 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:13:50pm

re: #125 Alexzander

Heh, I guess so... I just think downdings hurt emotionally more than anyone wants to admit. I'm also not sure they are good for open conversation. I'm trying to only spread positive karma.

An upding for you then!

But I hear ya. I can probably count the # of downdings I've ever given.

131 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:14:08pm

re: #128 Rightwingconspirator

Songs of the tyrants.

I'm a whim...fuck the rest of them

132 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:14:21pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

Not really, no. I mean SJ is being ridiculous, and what he's proposing is unacceptable, but Stalin coordinated mass starvation.

Okay I overstated some. But the authority to do as he says would easily render to the authority to do as Stalin certainly did.

133 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:14:28pm

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Mitch Daniels, who declared a 'truce' on social issues, is now saying that Michigan will defy the feds warning that by denying a constitutionally protected service, Michigan risks all its medicare funding.

Four billion dollars on the line, and they're risking it so that they can be sure Planned Parenthood-- which gets three million-- gets defunded.

Wasn't this guy supposed to be a moderate?

134 boxhead  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:15:03pm

re: #125 Alexzander

Heh, I guess so... I just think downdings hurt emotionally more than anyone wants to admit. I'm also not sure they are good for open conversation. I'm trying to only spread positive karma.

lol.... I don't think I have down-dinged anyone yet.... don't need to, plenty of others will pull the trigger... heh

135 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:15:17pm

re: #130 marjoriemoon

An upding for you then!

But I hear ya. I can probably count the # of downdings I've ever given.

I downdinged him for being a hippie. But you had to upding him. All this positive karma nonsense is turning me into a girly-man

136 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:15:27pm

re: #128 Rightwingconspirator


tell that to the court when you get fined for not registering a firearm or wearing your seatbelt

137 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:15:50pm

re: #129 imp_62

Damn hippie

Heh.. I've revealed myself! Actually I'm no hippy.
To be clear, by "karma" I refer to the pedestrian internet upding/downding system (ala Reddit), not anything metaphysical/hindu/pseudo-hindu-new-age.

138 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:15:55pm

re: #125 Alexzander

Heh, I guess so... I just think downdings hurt emotionally more than anyone wants to admit. I'm also not sure they are good for open conversation. I'm trying to only spread positive karma.

each downding I get, which I bet are abundant, tears my heart apart...I must be almost superhuman to go on

139 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:16:35pm

re: #133 Obdicut

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Mitch Daniels, who declared a 'truce' on social issues, is now saying that Michigan will defy the feds warning that by denying a constitutionally protected service, Michigan risks all its medicare funding.

Four billion dollars on the line, and they're risking it so that they can be sure Planned Parenthood-- which gets three million-- gets defunded.

Wasn't this guy supposed to be a moderate?

Mitch Daniels is to moderation what the bomb was to Nagasaki

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:16:39pm

re: #107 Floral Giraffe

I've made sure, that my 3 teenage nieces, understand, that Auntie is available to help with WHATEVER their problem is. I don't want a 16 year old, pregnant, not to have choices. And, choices that don't ruin their lives, like not being able to have a safe, abortion. Or safe adoption.

Years ago, when I was very small, the daughter of one of my dad's fellow cops got pregnant. She was sixteen. She told them, and well, they were shocked and not thrilled, but they said they would make good choices and get through this difficult time.

Daughter said, "Aren't you going to hit me or anything?"

Her father, next day, in the cop lunchroom: "Where the hell did my daughter get the idea I was the kind of person who goes around hitting pregnant women?"

I, hearing this story as a teenager, said, "Dad wouldn't hit me. Dad would kill the father."

My mother said, "You are correct, honey, so make good choices and don't cause a young man to be shot in the prime of his life."

141 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:16:50pm

re: #121 SpaceJesus

1. no shit

2. look up the word eugenics, my plan has nothing to do with race or ethnicity

It doesn't have to. Your "plan" is either evil or mind numbingly naive.

142 ibob  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:17:37pm

re: #75 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

They are not even interested in helping babies before they are born. My state wants to cut spending to WIC which helps provide adequate nutition to pregnant women, nursing mothers, and children.

143 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:17:57pm

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

When one of my college friends was pregnant with her first, they did an ultrasound and then called her in, Very Solemnly, to say that the baby was much smaller than he was supposed to be.

Panic. Panic. And then, eventually, realizing that they really hadn't believed her when she explained how irregular and unpredictable her cycles were, and had assigned the baby a conception date that was a good month earlier than he'd actually been started. He was fine, they were just assuming a gestational age at least four weeks off his actual age.

(He's in high school now. Fairly big, actually.)

I throw this out there merely to point out that even Kaiser can be quite off, a distracted mother of toddlers trying to pinpoint a date, even more so.

144 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:18:03pm

HEY webevintage: stop lurking and get out here. You haven't posted in, like, forever.

145 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:18:12pm

re: #138 albusteve

each downding I get, which I bet are abundant, tears my heart apart...I must be almost superhuman to go on

I seriously laughed reading that.. I love the people here who have persevered through some serious downding storms.

146 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:18:25pm

My Drunk Kitchen, Ep. 7: Tacos

Youtube Video
147 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:19:03pm

re: #144 imp_62

HEY webevintage: stop lurking and get out here. You haven't posted in, like, forever.

huh?

148 engineer cat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:19:16pm

Idaho Woman Arrested and Charged with 'Unlawful

"under english law, everything not forbidden is allowed
under german law, everything not allowed is forbidden
under french law, everything not forbidden is compusory"

and under wingnnut law, shut up and do what i say

149 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:19:24pm

Feh.

150 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:19:43pm

re: #141 Slumbering Behemoth


i guarantee it would decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies, while not hindering people who want pregnancy in the slightest.

151 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:20:14pm

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, go for it. People used to down-ding SpaceJesus until his head spun. And when he said stuff like "Hello", too.

It will be like the old days.

But, he's come back from negative, what was it SJ, 10,000 downdings?

152 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:20:17pm

re: #147 albusteve

huh?

LGF spy logins?

153 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:20:33pm

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

I want RWMofo to come back and tell us about how this is just how things are in Idaho, nothing to see folks...


The Los Angeles Times reports that 916 bills dealing with reproductive issues were introduced in 49 different state legislatures in the first three months of 2011, over 500 of which seek to restrict abortion.

So, no -- not only Idaho.

154 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:20:47pm

re: #132 Rightwingconspirator

Okay I overstated some. But the authority to do as he says would easily render to the authority to do as Stalin certainly did.

True. But I don't think SpaceJesus is all that interested in power.

155 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:21:00pm

re: #145 Alexzander

I seriously laughed reading that.. I love the people here who have persevered through some serious downding storms.

I don't participate...but sometimes when I'm in a posting zone, I feel a cool buzz down my neck and I know I'm being downdinged....you just know it's good

156 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:21:11pm

re: #152 Alexzander

LGF spy logins?

no, saw an upding from webevintage and thought he should come out and chat.

157 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:21:48pm

re: #136 SpaceJesus

tell that to the court when you get fined for not registering a firearm or wearing your seatbelt

I'd call that a very distant equality of law. Wearing a seatbelt and govt. required temporary sterilization?

I get your customary hyperbole/broad brush/outrageous angle but seatbelts? Really?

158 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:22:10pm

re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist

True. But I don't think SpaceJesus is all that interested in power.

Hello, he's SpaceJesus!
LOL!

159 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:22:54pm

re: #157 Rightwingconspirator

I do think we'd be better off if people had to make a conscious choice to become fertile, rather than always being fertile.

I just don't want to force the removal of anyone's fertility, if they don't want it. And we have no 100% efficacious and 100% reversible way of doing it, anyway.

160 Henchman 25  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:23:43pm

Atrocious.

161 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:24:04pm

re: #157 Rightwingconspirator

oh, i thought all bets were off the table with regards to comparisons when people called me stalin and hitler

162 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:24:08pm

re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist

True. But I don't think SpaceJesus is all that interested in power.

As I've said before, the thought to regulate people's procreation is very, very tempting, especially after reading about some gross child abuse.

Then you start to think about how quickly such a power could be abused, and whether you want to turn your power over to have children to someone else.

How long before some compassionate leader reads about a child abuse case and decides that to have your fertility turned back on (as if it were that easy) you had to receive a state permit? Prove your financial stability and emotional readiness? Who decides on those two things?

We'll have to keep muddling through and doing the best we can.

163 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:25:24pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

Damn, she is funny!

164 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:25:34pm

re: #162 EmmmieG

i would make it on-demand after the age of majority

165 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:25:37pm

re: #157 Rightwingconspirator

I'd call that a very distant equality of law. Wearing a seatbelt and govt. required temporary sterilization?

I get your customary hyperbole/broad brush/outrageous angle but seatbelts? Really?

'sir I pulled you over for not wearing your seatbelt...sir, may I please see your drivers license and sterilization doc...thank you...sir will you step out of the car with your hands in front of you?...sir, my name is Officer Spacejesus...'

166 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:27:02pm

re: #164 SpaceJesus

i would make it on-demand after the age of majority

I just really feel that it wouldn't be long before they were regulating things.

167 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:27:10pm

re: #138 albusteve

each downding I get, which I bet are abundant, tears my heart apart...I must be almost superhuman to go on

You've had your share of updings lately. Or maybe that's worse (?)

168 windsagio  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:27:31pm

re: #138 albusteve

You so look :p

169 Alexzander  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:27:50pm

re: #165 albusteve

'sir I pulled you over for not wearing your seatbelt...sir, may I please see your drivers license and sterilization doc...thank you...sir will you step out of the car with your hands in front of you?...sir, my name is Officer Spacejesus...'

Spacejesus gave me a vasectomy on the side of the road!

//sorry,sorry...

170 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:28:01pm

re: #159 Obdicut

I do think we'd be better off if people had to make a conscious choice to become fertile, rather than always being fertile.

I just don't want to force the removal of anyone's fertility, if they don't want it. And we have no 100% efficacious and 100% reversible way of doing it, anyway.

so you are talking some sort of voluntary system?

171 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:28:27pm

re: #133 Obdicut

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Mitch Daniels, who declared a 'truce' on social issues, is now saying that Michigan will defy the feds warning that by denying a constitutionally protected service, Michigan risks all its medicare funding.

Four billion dollars on the line, and they're risking it so that they can be sure Planned Parenthood-- which gets three million-- gets defunded.

Wasn't this guy supposed to be a moderate?

He's a TP hero, just better at press relations than most.

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:28:50pm

re: #169 Alexzander

Spacejesus gave me a vasectomy on the side of the road!

//sorry,sorry...

That's worse than what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus.

173 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:29:36pm

re: #161 SpaceJesus

Hold on. I was not calling you Stalin. I called out your comment as meaning the gov would have that kind of authority.

174 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:30:20pm

re: #168 windsagio

You so look :p

why do you come here and call me a liar?
you have no style at all

175 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:31:15pm

OT: I just found out I have a youtube account. I must have signed up for it eons ago. It's a pretty cool account name, too. wowlookaththatman

176 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:31:30pm

re: #174 albusteve

why do you come here and call me a liar?
you have no style at all

Yeah. Pontificating prevaricator would have more style.

Or at least more syllables.

177 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:31:40pm

re: #175 imp_62

OT: I just found out I have a youtube account. I must have signed up for it eons ago. It's a pretty cool account name, too. wowlookaththatman

wowlookatthatman

178 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:31:40pm

re: #161 SpaceJesus

Nah, you're our dear SJ!

179 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:32:08pm

re: #170 albusteve

so you are talking some sort of voluntary system?

I'm just saying if our biology had worked out where we had to actually do something to become fertile, we'd be better off.

There's no currently workable system.

180 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:32:12pm

re: #176 EmmmieG

Yeah. Pontificating prevaricator would have more style.

Or at least more syllables.

and it goes good with the argyle socks

181 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:32:37pm

re: #165 albusteve

'sir I pulled you over for not wearing your seatbelt...sir, may I please see your drivers license and sterilization doc...thank you...sir will you step out of the car with your hands in front of you?...sir, my name is Officer Spacejesus...'

Yes sir here is my drivers license, car registration and my balls hanging out so you can verify my vasectomy after I had my one state permitted son....
///

182 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:33:00pm

re: #174 albusteve

why do you come here and call me a liar?
you have no style at all

He's a screwball. Don't let him get to you.

183 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:33:10pm

re: #179 Obdicut

I'm just saying if our biology had worked out where we had to actually do something to become fertile, we'd be better off.

There's no currently workable system.

We can't even turn on fertility for people who want it turned on.

184 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:33:19pm

re: #181 Rightwingconspirator

Gawd, welcome to China.
PLEASE let's not go there!

185 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:33:29pm

re: #179 Obdicut

I'm just saying if our biology had worked out where we had to actually do something to become fertile, we'd be better off.

There's no currently workable system.

Biology and ecology will take care of this. As populations increase, infertility rates do, as well. All populations eventually regress towards the mean. It's nature's way of protecting itself rom us.

186 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:33:32pm

re: #173 Rightwingconspirator

you said i sounded like a tyrant?

187 webevintage  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:33:50pm

re: #156 imp_62

no, saw an upding from webevintage and thought he should come out and chat.

I'm here, I'm here.
But I have posted today AND last night.
Before that my participation has been very spotty.

I have a uterus.....
;-)

188 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:33:59pm

re: #179 Obdicut

I'm just saying if our biology had worked out where we had to actually do something to become fertile, we'd be better off.

There's no currently workable system.

I wonder if there is such a thing on the horizon....what a remarkable piece of chemistry that would be....semi-permanent birth control

189 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:34:46pm

History Lesson. From Sarah Palin. On Paul Revere.

So, let's review, shall we? The Statue of Liberty was presented as a reminder to us not to stray after false gods...'scuse me, that was 'socialism'...and to keep our exceptionalism...

Now, Paul Revere...anyone? Anyone?

190 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:35:06pm

re: #186 SpaceJesus

I said you proposed a tyrants law.

191 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:35:07pm

re: #187 webevintage

I'm here, I'm here.
But I have posted today AND last night.
Before that my participation has been very spotty.

I have a uterus...
;-)

Don't let Idaho find out about it.

192 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:35:24pm

re: #188 albusteve

I wonder if there is such a thing on the horizon...what a remarkable piece of chemistry that would be...semi-permanent birth control

I realize that many of you have not had a conversation recently with an OB-gyn, but there are definitely options that don't need daily action. Shots, things that um, oh just look it up. Things that happen much less frequently than daily.

193 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:35:58pm

re: #179 Obdicut

I'm just saying if our biology had worked out where we had to actually do something to become fertile, we'd be better off.

There's no currently workable system.

We've got that. Thousands of years of law and literature revolve around it.

194 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:36:10pm

re: #80 SpaceJesus

yup. im full-on mandatory vaccines too.

Hardly equivalent.

195 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:36:12pm

re: #183 EmmmieG

We can't even turn on fertility for people who want it turned on.

But, those who take extreme measures to turn on fertility, take risks.
[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

196 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:36:26pm

re: #186 SpaceJesus

you said i sounded like a tyrant?

Dude I may disrespect or disagree with the post but we're all good lizards here.

197 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:36:39pm

So far, there aren't that many actual reports besides the Care Blog out there on this. AP reports: The woman apparently thought she was only 14 weeks pregnant, but the autopsy found that the fetus was 5-6 months gestation.

The woman apparently kept the fetus in a box on a back porch, which may explain how the woman was confronted by police - whoever tipped them off may have found out that way. She admitted to keeping the fetus on the porch to police.

God awful every which way you look at it. The choice this woman thought she had to make is seemingly limited due to her lack of legal options, but there's no way I can condone the kind of fraud she undertook to obtain the meds online to do this - and the outcome could have been far worse; she could have died as a result of those meds or complications from using drugs to induce the abortion.

There's still quite a bit we don't know about this story.

198 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:37:01pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

He's a screwball. Don't let him get to you.

doesn't get to me at all...people simply disbelieve that I've only checked my avatar once...years ago, before there was a karma machine....I wanted to see what it did and when I registered...I've never been back

199 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:37:04pm

re: #193 Decatur Deb

We've got that. Thousands of years of law and literature revolve around it.

Heh. No. Not to get pregnant, but to get fertile.

200 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:37:18pm

re: #179 Obdicut

yeah, it just dawned on me too that my plan would probably lead to people not using condoms as much anymore, which could lead to increased spread of venereal disease. hmm.

201 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:37:33pm

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

History Lesson. From Sarah Palin. On Paul Revere.

So, let's review, shall we? The Statue of Liberty was presented as a reminder to us not to stray after false gods...'scuse me, that was 'socialism'...and to keep our exceptionalism...

Now, Paul Revere...anyone? Anyone?

Bueller?

202 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:37:39pm

re: #187 webevintage

I'm here, I'm here.
But I have posted today AND last night.
Before that my participation has been very spotty.

I have a uterus...
;-)

hide it

203 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:37:46pm

re: #197 lawhawk

So far, there aren't that many actual reports besides the Care Blog out there on this. AP reports: The woman apparently thought she was only 14 weeks pregnant, but the autopsy found that the fetus was 5-6 months gestation.

The woman apparently kept the fetus in a box on a back porch, which may explain how the woman was confronted by police - whoever tipped them off may have found out that way. She admitted to keeping the fetus on the porch to police.

God awful every which way you look at it. The choice this woman thought she had to make is seemingly limited due to her lack of legal options, but there's no way I can condone the kind of fraud she undertook to obtain the meds online to do this - and the outcome could have been far worse; she could have died as a result of those meds or complications from using drugs to induce the abortion.

There's still quite a bit we don't know about this story.

I have a feeling that I don't really want to learn much more. God.

204 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:37:50pm

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

History Lesson. From Sarah Palin. On Paul Revere.

So, let's review, shall we? The Statue of Liberty was presented as a reminder to us not to stray after false gods...'scuse me, that was 'socialism'...and to keep our exceptionalism...

Now, Paul Revere...anyone? Anyone?

Sarah Palin is the girl in college who you really wanted to date because she was hot - but you just couldn't get past how dumb she was.

205 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:37:58pm

re: #197 lawhawk

I don't think her actions were right at all; I don't think criminalizing them makes a damn bit of sense. What good does sending her to jail do?

Or even fining her?

206 webevintage  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:38:26pm

re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist

I have a feeling that I don't really want to learn much more. God.

so sad.
desperate people do desperate things....

207 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:38:31pm

re: #192 EmmmieG

I realize that many of you have not had a conversation recently with an OB-gyn, but there are definitely options that don't need daily action. Shots, things that um, oh just look it up. Things that happen much less frequently than daily.

time flies eh?

208 engineer cat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:38:54pm

the weiner scandal is just a metaphorical commentary on problems with the penal code

209 Interesting Times  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:39:08pm

re: #185 imp_62

Biology and ecology will take care of this. As populations increase, infertility rates do, as well. All populations eventually regress towards the mean. It's nature's way of protecting itself rom us.

Some people do have ways of getting around that...

210 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:39:13pm

re: #197 lawhawk

If proper reproductive health options had been available to her from the start, she would have been far less likely to be in this position.

211 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:39:21pm

re: #197 lawhawk

So far, there aren't that many actual reports besides the Care Blog out there on this. AP reports: The woman apparently thought she was only 14 weeks pregnant, but the autopsy found that the fetus was 5-6 months gestation.

The woman apparently kept the fetus in a box on a back porch, which may explain how the woman was confronted by police - whoever tipped them off may have found out that way. She admitted to keeping the fetus on the porch to police.

God awful every which way you look at it. The choice this woman thought she had to make is seemingly limited due to her lack of legal options, but there's no way I can condone the kind of fraud she undertook to obtain the meds online to do this - and the outcome could have been far worse; she could have died as a result of those meds or complications from using drugs to induce the abortion.

There's still quite a bit we don't know about this story.

Have to agree. However desperate she may have felt, the law cannot condone fraud. And fraud related to drugs is quite serious. I'm afraid that jail time is needed in this case.

212 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:39:29pm

re: #197 lawhawk

So far, there aren't that many actual reports besides the Care Blog out there on this. AP reports: The woman apparently thought she was only 14 weeks pregnant, but the autopsy found that the fetus was 5-6 months gestation.

The woman apparently kept the fetus in a box on a back porch, which may explain how the woman was confronted by police - whoever tipped them off may have found out that way. She admitted to keeping the fetus on the porch to police.

God awful every which way you look at it. The choice this woman thought she had to make is seemingly limited due to her lack of legal options, but there's no way I can condone the kind of fraud she undertook to obtain the meds online to do this - and the outcome could have been far worse; she could have died as a result of those meds or complications from using drugs to induce the abortion.

There's still quite a bit we don't know about this story.

What about the mental state of people who keep fetuses around the house?

213 Kragar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:39:30pm

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

History Lesson. From Sarah Palin. On Paul Revere.

So, let's review, shall we? The Statue of Liberty was presented as a reminder to us not to stray after false gods...'scuse me, that was 'socialism'...and to keep our exceptionalism...

Now, Paul Revere...anyone? Anyone?

What in the fucking hell is that crazy dumbass talking about?

214 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:39:33pm

re: #197 lawhawk

I don't think I want to know, any more details.
That woman is a tortured human being.
Enough said.

215 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:39:40pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

What good will that jail time do?

216 kingkenrod  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:40:11pm

Self-administered abortions should be illegal. Trying to abort a 5 month fetus on your own is crazy and is going to wind up getting women killed or sterilized. It could also damage (not kill) a fetus and result in a live birth of a gravely injured child. There's no way the government can look the other way, regardless of the circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised if every single state has a law against this. Of course this whole situation is a great argument in support of public subsidies for abortions. Desperate people do desperate things.

217 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:40:56pm

re: #205 Obdicut

I don't think her actions were right at all; I don't think criminalizing them makes a damn bit of sense. What good does sending her to jail do?

Or even fining her?

her actions were perfectly predictable by the people that imposed these restrictive laws....she was just waiting to happen for them

218 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:40:59pm

re: #212 Decatur Deb

What about the mental state of people who keep fetuses around the house?

Just. Not. Right.
All around, wrong.

219 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:41:37pm

re: #205 Obdicut

I don't think her actions were right at all; I don't think criminalizing them makes a damn bit of sense. What good does sending her to jail do?

Or even fining her?

If she committed fraud to obtain the drugs, then she must be jailed for it. Such an action cannot be tolerated.

220 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:41:40pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

Have to agree. However desperate she may have felt, the law cannot condone fraud. And fraud related to drugs is quite serious. I'm afraid that jail time is needed in this case.

not cool at all

221 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:42:26pm

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

If she committed fraud to obtain the drugs, then she must be jailed for it. Such an action cannot be tolerated.

I'm sorry, Dark, you didn't answer the question:

What good would putting her in jail do?

222 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:42:41pm

What if we committed her to time somewhere she can get a little help. A woman with a fetus on the porch is not a healthy woman, and I think she needs some mental help.

223 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:42:53pm

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

If she committed fraud to obtain the drugs, then she must be jailed for it. Such an action cannot be tolerated.

where the fuck is the justice in that?

224 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:43:01pm

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

If she committed fraud to obtain the drugs, then she must be jailed for it. Such an action cannot be tolerated.

Wow. Dude. Listen to yourself.

225 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:43:21pm

BBL.
Nothing nice to say.
Not going to get any better.

226 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:43:41pm

re: #205 Obdicut

I'm not Solomon - I don't have the answer to that one.

From the law enforcement side - there is the law that's on the books, and it's up to the DA to prosecute if they deem it so. Given the way that the local politics runs, that's the likely outcome (to prosecute).

I understand the reason to have a criminal sanction on unlawful abortion - it is to prevent someone from trying to do what this woman did, and possibly causing harm to themselves or someone else (think of the PA case with Gosnell for example engaging in illegal 3d trimester abortions). There's a health and safety component to protecting women from illegal abortions, but that's not the way they're using this law.

227 webevintage  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:43:43pm

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

If she committed fraud to obtain the drugs, then she must be jailed for it. Such an action cannot be tolerated.


Do first time offenders normally do jail time for this or shall we jail her as a warning to all women who might want to obtain an abortion (illegally) after 20 weeks in Idaho.

228 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:44:08pm

re: #216 kingkenrod

Self-administered abortions should be illegal. Trying to abort a 5 month fetus on your own is crazy and is going to wind up getting women killed or sterilized. It could also damage (not kill) a fetus and result in a live birth of a gravely injured child. There's no way the government can look the other way, regardless of the circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised if every single state has a law against this. Of course this whole situation is a great argument in support of public subsidies for abortions. Desperate people do desperate things.

Good luck with that.

You're arguing that this country should just give in and go back to the Dark Ages.

229 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:44:10pm

she told a goddamned lie that hurt no one, trying to survive a mind fucking ordeal

230 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:44:13pm

re: #215 Obdicut

What good will that jail time do?

For her? None. It's intended to send a message: Obtain drugs by fraud and you go to jail, period. Letting her get away with fraud is a "broken window", if you understand my meaning.

231 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:44:24pm

re: #185 imp_62

Biology and ecology will take care of this. As populations increase, infertility rates do, as well. All populations eventually regress towards the mean. It's nature's way of protecting itself rom us.


In all honesty, I've heard better feel-good stories.re: #219 Dark_Falcon

If she committed fraud to obtain the drugs, then she must be jailed for it. Such an action cannot be tolerated.


I respect a lot of your posts, but there are times when I just have no idea where you're coming from.

232 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:44:27pm

re: #218 Floral Giraffe

Just. Not. Right.
All around, wrong.

We are obviously talking about a woman with serious psychological issues, before and after the event. But these are society's vulnerable, the ones we have entered into a social contract to care for and protect - even from themselves. Right wingers see every uterus as a breeding box. The Idaho laws are carefully set up to prevent any meaningful reproductive self-determination by women. Punishing someone who finally springs the trap is meaningless.

233 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:44:44pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

For her? None. It's intended to send a message: Obtain drugs by fraud and you go to jail, period. Letting her get away with fraud is a "broken window", if you understand my meaning.

You are really losing me.

234 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:44:56pm

re: #213 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What in the fucking hell is that crazy dumbass talking about?

You don't remember this part? From grade school? Where Paul Revere rode through the night, shooting off warning shots and ringing church bells to let the British know we were going to keep our guns?

Listen my children and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year.

I'd rewrite the rest, but I have stuff to do.

235 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:45:55pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

For her? None. It's intended to send a message: Obtain drugs by fraud and you go to jail, period. Letting her get away with fraud is a "broken window", if you understand my meaning.

Massive enough medical fraud will get you a governorship in Florida.

236 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:45:57pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

For her? None. It's intended to send a message: Obtain drugs by fraud and you go to jail, period. Letting her get away with fraud is a "broken window", if you understand my meaning.

sending MESSAGES is not the fucking intent of justice...wtf are you saying dude?....where is your compassion?

237 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:45:58pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

Given the extenuating circumstances-I'd suspend any sentence were I the judge.

238 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:46:07pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

Have to agree. However desperate she may have felt, the law cannot condone fraud. And fraud related to drugs is quite serious. I'm afraid that jail time is needed in this case.

What proof is there that fraud occurred? None that I can see. The drugs purchased online by the sister may well have been over the counter, not requiring a doctor's prescription. In that case nobody was defrauded. Supporting this is the fact that she isn't she being charged with a prescription drug law violation, but with "unlawful abortion." You're jumping to a conclusion not supported by the evidence.

239 webevintage  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:46:20pm

re: #232 imp_62

The Idaho laws are carefully set up to prevent any meaningful reproductive self-determination by women. Punishing someone who finally springs the trap is meaningless.

This.

240 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:46:27pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

You don't remember this part? From grade school? Where Paul Revere rode through the night, shooting off warning shots and ringing church bells to let the British know we were going to keep our guns?

Listen my children and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year.

I'd rewrite the rest, but I have stuff to do.

What is she saying? Seriously, what is she saying about Paul Revere?

241 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:46:44pm

re: #212 Decatur Deb

That will likely be the way that her defense attorney approaches matters; that her mental health was such she couldn't tell right from wrong...

242 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:46:59pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

For her? None. It's intended to send a message: Obtain drugs by fraud and you go to jail, period. Letting her get away with fraud is a "broken window", if you understand my meaning.

That window was broken long ago by the socons who took over your party.

If it were easier to get abortions legally this woman wouldn't have broken the law.

243 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:47:07pm

I'm flat out astounded that there are actually LGF readers who think this is a good thing.

244 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:47:10pm

re: #240 EmmmieG

You heard the woman. Revere was the first NRA bell-ringer.

245 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:47:14pm

re: #227 webevintage

Do first time offenders normally do jail time for this or shall we jail her as a warning to all women who might want to obtain an abortion (illegally) after 20 weeks in Idaho.

It's not the abortion I'm concerned with, it's the fraud. Regardless of how I feel for her (and I'm not without sympathy, nor would I impose a long sentence (and it would be jail, not prison)), the fact remains that the state can't simply let her skate on this. What she did is illegal for a reason, and tolerating it will cause it to be repeated. Only next time the woman may die.

246 ElCapitanAmerica  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:47:37pm

yFrog "security update" is misleading;

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Looks like they may re-enable email/MMS post feature but with less simplistic email addresses.

247 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:48:13pm

re: #244 imp_62

You heard the woman. Revere was the first NRA bell-ringer.

The British were out to get a weapons cache. It belonged the militia, though.

248 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:48:18pm

re: #36 albusteve

so there is a civilian network of amateur Snitches For God...chilling thought

"If you see something, say something"

no, wait...

249 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:48:22pm

re: #243 Charles

I'm flat out astounded that there are actually LGF readers who think this is a good thing.

Every family has a crazy uncle.

250 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:48:23pm

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

You keep using a word (fraud) that's not being alleged in the indictment. That's interesting.

251 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:48:29pm

re: #226 lawhawk

Hell, I don't believe in criminalizing any self-harming actions. Not with jail time, anyway. This is like criminalizing a suicide attempt.

She needs help, obviously. Jail isn't going to help her, it's not going to help society, it won't prevent this or anything like it from happening again.

Pointless punitiveness, like too much of our justice system these days.

252 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:48:55pm

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

It's not the abortion I'm concerned with, it's the fraud. Regardless of how I feel for her (and I'm not without sympathy, nor would I impose a long sentence (and it would be jail, not prison)), the fact remains that the state can't simply let her skate on this. What she did is illegal for a reason, and tolerating it will cause it to be repeated. Only next time the woman may die.

She had no fucking choice, because the party that YOU support made all other choices impossible. You forced her into a corner, and now you think it's a good thing to punish her for making a desperate attempt to get control of her life.

Disgusting.

253 Political Atheist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:49:01pm

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

It's not the abortion I'm concerned with, it's the fraud. Regardless of how I feel for her (and I'm not without sympathy, nor would I impose a long sentence (and it would be jail, not prison)), the fact remains that the state can't simply let her skate on this. What she did is illegal for a reason, and tolerating it will cause it to be repeated. Only next time the woman may die.

Seriously this woman has suffered enough already at the hand of the law.

254 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:49:15pm

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

It's not the abortion I'm concerned with, it's the fraud. Regardless of how I feel for her (and I'm not without sympathy, nor would I impose a long sentence (and it would be jail, not prison)), the fact remains that the state can't simply let her skate on this. What she did is illegal for a reason, and tolerating it will cause it to be repeated. Only next time the woman may die.

"and it would be jail, not prison"

Explain this to me further Dark I R confuzzled....

255 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:49:23pm

I just can't imagine being in her shoes.

And that's all that I have to say about that.

256 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:49:35pm

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

Do you think that if they send her to jail, other desperate women-- so desperate they buy drugs online and take them knowing they might kill them-- wouldn't do it?

257 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:49:45pm

re: #226 lawhawk

I'm not Solomon - I don't have the answer to that one.

From the law enforcement side - there is the law that's on the books, and it's up to the DA to prosecute if they deem it so. Given the way that the local politics runs, that's the likely outcome (to prosecute).

I understand the reason to have a criminal sanction on unlawful abortion - it is to prevent someone from trying to do what this woman did, and possibly causing harm to themselves or someone else (think of the PA case with Gosnell for example engaging in illegal 3d trimester abortions). There's a health and safety component to protecting women from illegal abortions, but that's not the way they're using this law.


Do you think "the way they're using this law" would be something we could expect only infrequently?

I'd like to be proven or convinced I'm wrong, but I think we're going to see a hell of a lot more "the way they're using this law" than less.

258 webevintage  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:49:48pm

Going after her for fraud will be the way the GOP in Idaho can slither under the rocks and not admit that all of this happened because of their bullshit abortion law.

And that will be their talking point, not that she was desperate, but that she is obviously a criminal...hell she committed fraud and, and she keep the body around. Not anyone that deserves any compassion or mercy.

259 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:50:29pm

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

It's not the abortion I'm concerned with, it's the fraud. Regardless of how I feel for her (and I'm not without sympathy, nor would I impose a long sentence (and it would be jail, not prison)), the fact remains that the state can't simply let her skate on this. What she did is illegal for a reason, and tolerating it will cause it to be repeated. Only next time the woman may die.

JAIL?...are you out of you fucking mind?...she has other children...and why the hell can't the state let her skate?...you are slipping out of touch amigo

260 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:50:50pm

re: #185 imp_62

Biology and ecology will take care of this. As populations increase, infertility rates do, as well. All populations eventually regress towards the mean. It's nature's way of protecting itself rom us.

Not when the species can manipulate fertility rates via technology.

BTW, many species have gone beyond their environment's carrying capacity and either gone extinct or close to it.

261 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:51:00pm

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

It's not the abortion I'm concerned with, it's the fraud. Regardless of how I feel for her (and I'm not without sympathy, nor would I impose a long sentence (and it would be jail, not prison)), the fact remains that the state can't simply let her skate on this. What she did is illegal for a reason, and tolerating it will cause it to be repeated. Only next time the woman may die.

The premise of your argument is Kafka-esque. The state has created an unmanageable, inhumane labyrinth of laws designed to trap and punish the most vulnerable, and you are saying that since a law was broken, the punishment must be meted out. Your position is bureaucratic and bereft of any moral dimension.

262 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:51:21pm

re: #187 webevintage

I'm here, I'm here.
But I have posted today AND last night.
Before that my participation has been very spotty.

I have a uterus...
;-)

I have a box of chocolates.

263 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:51:45pm

re: #258 webevintage

Going after her for fraud will be the way the GOP in Idaho can slither under the rocks and not admit that all of this happened because of their bullshit abortion law.

And that will be their talking point, not that she was desperate, but that she is obviously a criminal...hell she committed fraud and, and she keep the body around. Not anyone that deserves any compassion or mercy.

Actually, if I were on the jury that would make me want to acquit. It speaks of a woman seriously not functioning. We took one day to bury the bird, for pity's sake.

264 Kragar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:52:22pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

For her? None. It's intended to send a message: Obtain drugs by fraud and you go to jail, period. Letting her get away with fraud is a "broken window", if you understand my meaning.

The underground railroad also broke the law, so they deserved any punishment the Slave states felt they should suffer for helping their property to escape.

I mean, they did break the law, right?

265 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:52:48pm

Meanwhile:

Indiana Will Enforce Illegal Law To Defund Planned Parenthood, May Lose All Medicaid Funds

In the race to be the first, the Indiana GOP plowed through common sense and internal opposition to pass a law stripping Planned Parenthood of public funding. When signing the bill, Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels (R) said non-abortion services would “remain readily available” from other providers. In reality, by signing the law, Daniels jeopardized federal funding for all family planning and health care providers and, as a result, access to health care for thousands of low-income Hoosiers.

266 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:53:02pm

This kind of right wing thinking is why Roe v. Wade was passed in the first place -- the country was sickened by it.

And now the right wing is sneaking back, passing legislation to restore the misogynistic laws of the early 20th century, and hoping nobody notices until it's too late.

267 Interesting Times  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:53:22pm

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

It's not the abortion I'm concerned with, it's the fraud. Regardless of how I feel for her (and I'm not without sympathy, nor would I impose a long sentence (and it would be jail, not prison)), the fact remains that the state can't simply let her skate on this. What she did is illegal for a reason, and tolerating it will cause it to be repeated. Only next time the woman may die.

This is not a "conservative" position. It's authoritarian.

Do you want to be an authoritarian?

268 windsagio  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:53:39pm

re: #264 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

No, laws are already right (insert godwin here)

269 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:53:48pm

deja vu all over again

270 webevintage  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:54:40pm

There are of course options other then drugs open to women that will allow them to end a pregnancy. Coat hangers, herbal mixes, throwing yourself down the stairs, knitting needles...all cheap and you get the extra bonus that you won't be committing fraud and go to jail if caught.
That is if you survive....

271 brownbagj  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:54:52pm

I do have a couple of questions.

What laws in Idaho kept this unfortunate woman from having a legal abortion? (I know nothing of them and based on what I am reading here it seems that there are multiple laws that forced this women into this decision to risk her life.)

If it was money that kept her from having a legal abortion, are we proposing that the government should pay for abortions?

272 Kragar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:55:01pm

re: #268 windsagio

No, laws are already right (insert godwin here)

People who hid Jews from the Nazis broke the LAW!

273 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:55:14pm

re: #268 windsagio

Youtube Video
274 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:55:28pm

re: #257 BongCrodny

I think we're going to see more of this. A lot more - but especially in those states that are low population / sparsely populated with few family planning professionals who can provide abortions. It's women in those states who are at highest risk of being in a position to want/need an abortion and not having it as a viable option.

275 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:55:50pm

re: #266 Charles

This kind of right wing thinking is why Roe v. Wade was passed in the first place -- the country was sickened by it.

And now the right wing is sneaking back, passing legislation to restore the misogynistic laws of the early 20th century, and hoping nobody notices until it's too late.

I'm hoping the SC steps in and soon...this protocol about waiting for a case to work it's way up is bullshit...wtf is Holder and his crew?

276 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:55:58pm

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

If she committed fraud to obtain the drugs, then she must be jailed for it. Such an action cannot be tolerated.

The law shouldn't be worshipped as an end in itself, it should be flexible enough to guarantee our humanity.

277 webevintage  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:56:46pm

re: #271 brownbagj


If it was money that kept her from having a legal abortion, are we proposing that the government should pay for abortions?

For women who cannot afford them?
Yes.

278 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:57:03pm

re: #275 albusteve

I'm hoping the SC steps in and soon...this protocol about waiting for a case to work it's way up is bullshit...wtf is Holder and his crew?

Don't expect wonders from this SC.

279 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:57:21pm

re: #226 lawhawk

I'm not Solomon - I don't have the answer to that one.

From the law enforcement side - there is the law that's on the books, and it's up to the DA to prosecute if they deem it so. Given the way that the local politics runs, that's the likely outcome (to prosecute).

I understand the reason to have a criminal sanction on unlawful abortion - it is to prevent someone from trying to do what this woman did, and possibly causing harm to themselves or someone else (think of the PA case with Gosnell for example engaging in illegal 3d trimester abortions). There's a health and safety component to protecting women from illegal abortions, but that's not the way they're using this law.

What of the law makers that manipulate the circumstances so this could happen?

280 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:57:24pm

re: #266 Charles

This kind of right wing thinking is why Roe v. Wade was passed in the first place -- the country was sickened by it.

And now the right wing is sneaking back, passing legislation to restore the misogynistic laws of the early 20th century, and hoping nobody notices until it's too late.

I believe the backlash at the polls will be massive, and fatal to the TP and the extreme right wing. There are no more extreme right voters than there were 40 years ago; they are simply more active. Voter turnout is low, and activists swing elections. The knowledge that increased participation automatically spells the death of their legislative achievements is what drives the extremists to pass ancillary laws restricting voter registration. They know they are a minority and need to find a way to install permanent mechanisms to maintain minority control.

I am a strong enough believer in American democracy to be convinced they will not get away with it.

281 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:57:28pm

re: #271 brownbagj

I do have a couple of questions.

What laws in Idaho kept this unfortunate woman from having a legal abortion? (I know nothing of them and based on what I am reading here it seems that there are multiple laws that forced this women into this decision to risk her life.)

If it was money that kept her from having a legal abortion, are we proposing that the government should pay for abortions?

Yes the government should pay for abortions.

If the government doesn't pay for an abortion than a child ends up being born whose mother isn't prepared to show the love and affection they will need.

Such a child may end up being put in orphanage, in which case the government ends up paying for them, or they may grow up to be a less than fully functioning member of society in which case the government will pay for them as the languish in prison.

They may also against all odds succeed and become a functioning member of society... but I wouldn't bet on it.

Whatever we do, the government probably pays.... at least paying for an abortion is the cheapest monetary option which also causes the least human suffering.

282 Four More Tears  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:58:12pm

re: #278 Decatur Deb

Don't expect wonders from this SC.

Maddow recently made the point that any abortion case getting to this bench could be very very bad for Progressives.

283 Kragar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:58:17pm

re: #271 brownbagj

I do have a couple of questions.

What laws in Idaho kept this unfortunate woman from having a legal abortion? (I know nothing of them and based on what I am reading here it seems that there are multiple laws that forced this women into this decision to risk her life.)

If it was money that kept her from having a legal abortion, are we proposing that the government should pay for abortions?

If she could afford them online, then she should have been able to afford them by going to her local pharmacy.

284 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:58:20pm

re: #274 lawhawk

We'll probably see prosecutions of doctors providing services again, too-- I mean decent doctors who can't, in good conscience, refuse this to their patients.

285 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:58:26pm

re: #278 Decatur Deb

Don't expect wonders from this SC.

this shit flies in the face of federal law...time for a showdown

286 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:58:26pm

re: #271 brownbagj

I do have a couple of questions.

What laws in Idaho kept this unfortunate woman from having a legal abortion? (I know nothing of them and based on what I am reading here it seems that there are multiple laws that forced this women into this decision to risk her life.)

If it was money that kept her from having a legal abortion, are we proposing that the government should pay for abortions?

How about making it affordable and accessible?

287 windsagio  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:58:38pm

re: #273 WindUpBird

Youtube Video
288 Interesting Times  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:59:00pm

re: #282 JasonA

Maddow recently made the point that any abortion case getting to this bench could be very very bad for Progressives women's rights.

Fixed.

289 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:59:31pm

re: #287 windsagio

Youtube Video
290 Four More Tears  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:59:36pm

re: #288 publicityStunted

Fixed.

Point taken.

291 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:59:42pm

She's expected to be arraigned Friday, which means we'll likely know a little more about the case and the charges pending - whether they include fraud in addition to the illegal abortion charge or other charges.

I would leave it to someone else to check on the legislative history on the illegal abortion statute and see whether the legislature intended it to be used in the manner in which the prosecutor is likely intending to use it (which goes back to the discussion above over how Killgore mentioned that folks justifying these laws weren't meant to go after the women, just those doctors engaging in illegal abortions).

292 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 7:59:43pm

Sly.

293 bratwurst  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:00:17pm

re: #274 lawhawk

I think we're going to see more of this. A lot more - but especially in those states that are low population / sparsely populated with few family planning professionals who can provide abortions. It's women in those states who are at highest risk of being in a position to want/need an abortion and not having it as a viable option.

Were you here a week or two ago when a certain right wing troll compared the plight of women wanting or needing an abortion in those states to the plight of skiers who reside in plains states?

294 brownbagj  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:01:09pm

Thank you all for your answers.

Unfortunately, I don't have any. I hate this situation. I really, really do.

I do believe that women have a right to do with their bodies what they wish. IT IS THEIR BODY.

Also, I believe that to truly lower abortion rates, sex education, contraceptives etc should be much more plentiful to all of society.

But, I am not sure I am comfortable with government paying for women to exercise their right to abortions. I just don't know where I am at on that.

295 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:01:18pm

re: #291 lawhawk

Waaay OT: But do you care about my review of Leopard at des Artistes (W67th)?

296 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:01:51pm

re: #293 bratwurst

I don't recall that particular argument, but that's repulsive.

297 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:02:03pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

For her? None. It's intended to send a message: Obtain drugs by fraud and you go to jail, period. Letting her get away with fraud is a "broken window", if you understand my meaning.

The idea that the justice system should be all about retribution and deterrents is a foolish dream. Very few criminals believe they will get caught and most don't give jail time any consideration at all. Not all humans think the same way you do.

298 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:02:17pm

re: #294 brownbagj

But, I am not sure I am comfortable with government paying for women to exercise their right to abortions. I just don't know where I am at on that.

Why not?

299 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:02:39pm

re: #276 b_sharp

The law shouldn't be worshipped as an end in itself, it should be flexible enough to guarantee our humanity.

The law is the end product of many years of history... the fruit of human knowledge! Like a gem, polished to a gleam through trials... and errors.
It is this fruit we receive, and pass on, and face in our time. And it is always changing, growing. Nurturing it is our task as human beings.

300 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:03:13pm

re: #295 imp_62

I'm always looking for good eats.

301 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:03:54pm

re: #299 jamesfirecat

The law is the end product of many years of history... the fruit of human knowledge! Like a gem, polished to a gleam through trials... and errors.
It is this fruit we receive, and pass on, and face in our time. And it is always changing, growing. Nurturing it is our task as human beings.

And sometimes, like in this case, we eat the fruit of knowledge and pass it out of our ass and make it law.

302 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:04:21pm

re: #294 brownbagj

But, I am not sure I am comfortable with government paying for women to exercise their right to abortions. I just don't know where I am at on that.

That's why Planned Parenthood segregates their funds, so the government can support their other services and abortion services are 100% donation based, but even that isn't good enough for some people.

303 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:04:23pm

re: #297 b_sharp

And for crimes of high emotion-- which I think this definitely is-- deterrence doesn't exist. This woman's actions were not those of someone rationally weighing up her available options.

304 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:04:26pm

re: #249 ozbloke

Every family has a crazy uncle.

Not mine.

305 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:04:44pm

After we've banned abortion, let's be sure to de-fund every possible source of prenatal healthcare for poor women. We want maternal death rates to return to what they were back in the 19th century. We just don't have enough eclampsia and undetected ectopic pregnancies in this country. Things like that build character.

306 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:05:29pm

re: #291 lawhawk

She's expected to be arraigned Friday, which means we'll likely know a little more about the case and the charges pending - whether they include fraud in addition to the illegal abortion charge or other charges.

I would leave it to someone else to check on the legislative history on the illegal abortion statute and see whether the legislature intended it to be used in the manner in which the prosecutor is likely intending to use it (which goes back to the discussion above over how Killgore mentioned that folks justifying these laws weren't meant to go after the women, just those doctors engaging in illegal abortions).

A little more detail here. Also a little more graphic.

[Link: www.kboi2.com...]

If convicted, she faces up to five years in prison and a $5,000 fine. So they can't be charging her with manslaughter or murder then?

307 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:05:43pm

re: #304 b_sharp

Not mine.

I have racist Uncle Steve. He didn't get invited to my wedding. I didn't want to see him get his ass beaten by my wife's (mixed) family after saying something racist about her or them.

Actually, I did, but I thought it'd spoil the wedding.

308 brownbagj  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:06:00pm

re: #298 Obdicut

It's silly I guess. I can't put my finger on why I am uncomfortable with it.

I am not for or against it I guess is the way I would put it. But usually, to me, when the government pays for something I typically assign it to a function they should server - like the military, roads etc.

Abortions just fall out of that line for me. I can see the government spending money to secure that right for women, but not subsidizing the actual act.

Like the 1st or 2nd amendment, I expect the government to ensure my ability to exercise those rights, but I do not expect the government to buy or pay for my exercising those rights.

309 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:06:17pm

re: #254 jamesfirecat

"and it would be jail, not prison"

Explain this to me further Dark I R confuzzled...

Meaning I'd be amenable to a misdemeanor plea that gave her a few months in jail, but did not give her a felony conviction. That was what I meant.

Please excuse the absence. My Flash plugin crashed.

310 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:06:38pm

Former world leaders say decriminalizing marijuana worth trying

A group of prominent former world leaders said Wednesday the so-called war on drugs has "failed" and that decriminalizing marijuana may help curb drug-related violence and social ills.

"The global war on drugs has failed, with devastating consequences for individuals and societies around the world," the members of the Global Commission on Drug Policy say in a report.

"Fifty years after the initiation of the UN Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs, and 40 years after President (Richard) Nixon launched the US government's war on drugs, fundamental reforms in national and global drug control policies are urgently needed."

And saying that restrictions on marijuana should be loosened, the report urged governments to "end the criminalization, marginalization and stigmatization of people who use drugs but who do no harm to others."

The commission includes former Brazilian president Fernando Cardoso, former Colombian president Cesar Gaviria, Mexico's former president Ernesto Zedillo and the ex-UN chief Kofi Annan. It presents its report officially on Thursday in New York.

311 brownbagj  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:07:09pm

re: #304 b_sharp

If you think your family does not have a crazy uncle or aunt, then YOU my friend are the crazy uncle or aunt.

312 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:07:15pm

re: #300 lawhawk

I'm always looking for good eats.

Nutshell: Food 8.5 of 10, Service off the charts. Friday night, great buzz. The menu is solid, with some nice surprises (zabaione made table side, as it should be) and seasonal specials. Wine list inclusive without being extensive, and priced within reason. Sea bass, dorade, all recommended.

313 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:07:22pm

re: #308 brownbagj

Abortions just fall out of that line for me. I can see the government spending money to secure that right for women, but not subsidizing the actual act.

It's a medical procedure.

Are you against the government providing funding for medical procedures in general?

314 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:07:23pm

re: #273 WindUpBird

[Video]

Hey WUB.

Why is it I never see you and Windy post at the same time?

315 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:08:24pm

re: #309 Dark_Falcon

But again, Dark:

Do you think that a woman who was desperate enough to do this would seriously be deterred by the prospect of jail time?

I just noticed this woman is 32, and has a 17 year old child.

She had her first child at 15.

316 windsagio  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:08:49pm

re: #314 b_sharp

except when we just were? >>

317 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:09:13pm

re: #309 Dark_Falcon

Meaning I'd be amenable to a misdemeanor plea that gave her a few months in jail, but did not give her a felony conviction. That was what I meant.

Please excuse the absence. My Flash plugin crashed.

Dark that's still confining her in a federal facility isn't it?

I honestly fail to see how that a "jail" is different from a "prison" for the person inside it... even if there are differences after they get out.

You're gonna need to do a better job explaining, though there are a lot of different good points being raised so don't feel like you need to give me all your attention/time...

318 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:09:14pm

re: #313 Obdicut

It's a medical procedure.

Are you against the government providing funding for medical procedures in general?

it's almost always an elective medical procedure...in most cases it's merely birth control

319 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:09:21pm

re: #308 brownbagj

It's silly I guess. I can't put my finger on why I am uncomfortable with it.

I am not for or against it I guess is the way I would put it. But usually, to me, when the government pays for something I typically assign it to a function they should server - like the military, roads etc.

Abortions just fall out of that line for me. I can see the government spending money to secure that right for women, but not subsidizing the actual act.

Like the 1st or 2nd amendment, I expect the government to ensure my ability to exercise those rights, but I do not expect the government to buy or pay for my exercising those rights.

The government doesn't actually have to pay for it (or birth control either), but they could help fund clinics that provide abortion and family planning, maybe in a way where women pay on a sliding scale, what they can afford.

320 brownbagj  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:09:36pm

re: #313 Obdicut

No, and I see the point you are making.

Again, I can't put my finger on why I am a little uneasy with it. I am open to being convinced.

321 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:09:46pm

re: #312 imp_62

Thanks.

And with that, I'm out for the PM.

See ya on the flip side.

322 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:10:59pm

re: #320 brownbagj

No, and I see the point you are making.

Again, I can't put my finger on why I am a little uneasy with it. I am open to being convinced.

See my #281... if the government doesn't pay for the abortion, they're probably going to end up paying in other ways instead...

323 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:11:43pm

re: #303 Obdicut

And for crimes of high emotion-- which I think this definitely is-- deterrence doesn't exist. This woman's actions were not those of someone rationally weighing up her available options.

A point many on the right, especially those authoritarians in the group, completely ignore.

324 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:12:07pm

I am out. Going to ave my wife from her never ending homework assignments and grab an Oreo before bed.

325 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:12:10pm

re: #320 brownbagj

Unless i have any clue why you're uneasy, I have no idea how to convince you.

List any reasons the government shouldn't help fund places like Planned Parenthood who are responsible providers of abortion services.

326 shutdown  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:12:37pm

re: #324 imp_62

I am out. Going to ave my wife from her never ending homework assignments and grab an Oreo before bed.

save my wife. I appear to have cockney fingers.

327 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:12:42pm

I'm wondering why she had her sister get the drugs. Why couldn't she?

328 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:12:46pm

re: #319 marjoriemoon

Did you notice that this woman had her first child at 15?

Society has failed her rather badly.

329 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:12:50pm

re: #317 jamesfirecat

Dark that's still confining her in a federal facility isn't it?

I honestly fail to see how that a "jail" is different from a "prison" for the person inside it... even if there are differences after they get out.

You're gonna need to do a better job explaining, though there are a lot of different good points being raised so don't feel like you need to give me all your attention/time...

She'd be in a state facility, James. She hasn't been charged with violating a federal law.

330 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:13:04pm

And if you're not frustrated enough yet, listen to this guy from "Personhood USA" who is apparently not the first and/or only person who wants to rewrite the Constitution so as to legally recognize someone as a "person" the exact instant that a sperm fertilizes an egg.

Abortion Foes Push to Redefine Personhood

331 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:13:14pm

re: #318 albusteve

it's almost always an elective medical procedure...in most cases it's merely birth control

Only a male could ever say something like that.

332 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:13:47pm

re: #330 negativ

Ron Paul is also in favor of that.

333 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:14:00pm

re: #307 Obdicut

I have racist Uncle Steve. He didn't get invited to my wedding. I didn't want to see him get his ass beaten by my wife's (mixed) family after saying something racist about her or them.

Actually, I did, but I thought it'd spoil the wedding.

My brother's ex-wife's father was like that. We went to his wedding and the FIL decided to sit at our table and tell 'Indian' jokes in front of my wife.

I had to go ask my new SIL to move her father.

334 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:14:30pm

re: #329 Dark_Falcon

She'd be in a state facility, James. She hasn't been charged with violating a federal law.

She's been forced into a corner by the Republican Party, and acted out of sheer desperation. And you think it would be "lenient" to just send her to jail.

335 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:14:37pm

re: #329 Dark_Falcon

She'd be in a state facility, James. She hasn't been charged with violating a federal law.

Dark I'm not sure if you're doing it on purpose, but you could not be doing A WORSE JOB of telling me what the difference between sending someone to prison and sending someone to jail.

What is the difference?

336 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:14:46pm

re: #309 Dark_Falcon

Meaning I'd be amenable to a misdemeanor plea that gave her a few months in jail, but did not give her a felony conviction. That was what I meant.

Please excuse the absence. My Flash plugin crashed.

You seem to be having quite the problem with your system.

337 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:15:34pm

re: #311 brownbagj

If you think your family does not have a crazy uncle or aunt, then YOU my friend are the crazy uncle or aunt.

My point exactly.
Or so I've been told.

338 Four More Tears  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:15:44pm

re: #329 Dark_Falcon

She'd be in a state facility, James. She hasn't been charged with violating a federal law.

Considering that she got the drugs online, most likely from another state, are you sure about that?

And isn't the sister who bought the drugs really the culprit?

339 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:16:07pm

Right now Circus animals are working to fix the wreckage left behind by this tornado... so right now Milwaukee is getting more help from ACTUAL ELEPHANTS THAN THE GOP!

--Jon Stewart.

340 brownbagj  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:16:11pm

re: #325 Obdicut

Obidcut, I really enjoy conversing with you. You do a great job of asking hard questions.

I probably shouldn't have started this as I have to be up in five hours for two HUGELY important meetings tomorrow.

So, I will think more on this and try to come up with that list. It will be a good personal exploration for me.

I can say that I see no issue with funding planned parenthood for consulting pregnant ladies on their options. The actual act of abortion, again from somewhere inside, just seems out of bounds.

This could easily be a failure on my part. Again, I will think of that list.

Have a great night everyone.

341 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:16:16pm

re: #335 jamesfirecat

James:

Jail is a purposefully tempoary place, both for holding criminals as they await trial and holding prisoners for short sentences. They are always state, county, or town.

Prisons may be state or federal, and are for long-term confinement.

342 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:16:19pm

re: #327 EmmmieG

I'm wondering why she had her sister get the drugs. Why couldn't she?

Her sister may have simply seen her plight and sought to help, all on her own initiative. Family often works that way. I don't trust the wording of this reporting.

343 abolitionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:16:33pm

re: #272 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

People who hid Jews from the Nazis broke the LAW!

And people who wouldn't rat out their friends and neighbors, brothers and sisters, and complete strangers, who were hiding Jews, broke the law too.

Christine O'Donnell said she wouldn't have broken the law.

344 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:16:38pm

re: #315 Obdicut

But again, Dark:

Do you think that a woman who was desperate enough to do this would seriously be deterred by the prospect of jail time?

I just noticed this woman is 32, and has a 17 year old child.

She had her first child at 15.

I don't know, but even if she would not be deterred, that does not deter me. Desperation is not a legal defense. To refuse to take action allows people to walk all over the law and that is not be done. To do that is encourage others to break the law.

345 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:16:47pm

re: #316 windsagio

except when we just were? >>

It's a trick. You're a smart one, you are.

I'll go check the time stamps.

346 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:17:21pm

re: #328 Obdicut

Did you notice that this woman had her first child at 15?

Society has failed her rather badly.

sounds like a family problem to me....I don't feel like I've failed anybody
the abortion issue will never go away, so the best to hope for is meeting in the middle...certainly someone has to offer these services, but useless pregnancies needs to go way down as well...personal responsibility and all that cultural stuff...I'm thinking that most pregnancies could easily be avaoided

347 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:17:35pm

re: #318 albusteve

it's almost always an elective medical procedure...in most cases it's merely birth control

I think the word 'most' is an error.

348 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:17:52pm

re: #341 Obdicut

James:

Jail is a purposefully tempoary place, both for holding criminals as they await trial and holding prisoners for short sentences. They are always state, county, or town.

Prisons may be state or federal, and are for long-term confinement.

Thank you for that.

349 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:17:55pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

I don't know, but even if she would not be deterred, that does not deter me. Desperation is not a legal defense. To refuse to take action allows people to walk all over the law and that is not be done. To do that is encourage others to break the law.

If the law is so utterly fucked the way the current one is... then guess what, encouraging people to break it is a good thing!

350 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:18:30pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

I don't know, but even if she would not be deterred, that does not deter me. Desperation is not a legal defense. To refuse to take action allows people to walk all over the law and that is not be done. To do that is encourage others to break the law.

But Dark, the only reason you gave to send her to jail was deterrence. If you don't even know if that deterrence will work with people like her, then your second part of your argument really doesn't make much sense.

351 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:18:42pm

re: #324 imp_62

I am out. Going to ave my wife from her never ending homework assignments and grab an Oreo before bed.

You're going to have your wife?

Braggart!

352 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:18:51pm

re: #348 Dark_Falcon

Thank you for that.

So what would you sentence her with Dark?

You said that you wouldn't send her to prison and she clearly doesn't have money to pay a fine either....

353 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:19:00pm

The Guttmacher Institute has some really good facts and figures on abortion in Idaho.

In Idaho, the following restrictions on abortion were in effect as of January 2011:

The parent of a minor must consent before an abortion is provided.

A woman must receive state-directed counseling that includes information designed to discourage her from having an abortion and then wait 24 hours before the procedure is provided.

Public funding is available for abortion only in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest.

Guttmacher Institute


Folks, this is clearly about power and controlling women's lives, and nothing else. According to Kaiser Family State Health Facts.org, the abortion rate in the U.S. in 2006 was 16 per 1,000 women; Idaho's abortion rate was 6 per 1,000 women.

That's right: Idaho enacted these rules despite having the lowest abortion rate in the United States.

Abortion Rates, 2006

354 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:19:12pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

I don't know, but even if she would not be deterred, that does not deter me. Desperation is not a legal defense. To refuse to take action allows people to walk all over the law and that is not be done. To do that is encourage others to break the law.

It's BAD law, written by religious fanatics and the Republican Party that YOU blindly support. It's a law that oppresses women, very deliberately and very disgustingly.

This law should be broken. It's an abomination. This woman should not be prosecuted.

355 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:19:39pm

re: #347 b_sharp

I think the word 'most' is an error.

could be...I've already lost this one

356 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:20:04pm

re: #328 Obdicut

Did you notice that this woman had her first child at 15?

Society has failed her rather badly.

Well, there are a lot of gals who get pregnant during teenhood. That doesn't mean society failed her.

But it comes down to, If she had affordable and accessible care, she may not have had to do something so dangerous.

357 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:20:09pm

re: #330 negativ

And if you're not frustrated enough yet, listen to this guy from "Personhood USA" who is apparently not the first and/or only person who wants to rewrite the Constitution so as to legally recognize someone as a "person" the exact instant that a sperm fertilizes an egg.

Abortion Foes Push to Redefine Personhood

Anywhere in there did he say 'Ook ook'?

358 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:20:54pm

re: #342 goddamnedfrank

Her sister may have simply seen her plight and sought to help, all on her own initiative. Family often works that way. I don't trust the wording of this reporting.

It doesn't say why. I checked the AP story. It just says her sister ordered them and she took them.

359 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:21:37pm

re: #350 Obdicut

But Dark, the only reason you gave to send her to jail was deterrence. If you don't even know if that deterrence will work with people like her, then your second part of your argument really doesn't make much sense.

It's not only about people like her, Obdi. If you let someone walk because they claim desperation, you open the doors to similar claims in other cases. It's a bad idea. It's said that hard cases make for bad law, and I can see how that is true in this case.

360 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:21:59pm

And yes, I'm thoroughly disgusted with people who try to make excuses for this far right lunacy.

This country is turning into something I don't even recognize.

361 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:22:08pm

re: #341 Obdicut

James:

Jail is a purposefully tempoary place, both for holding criminals as they await trial and holding prisoners for short sentences. They are always state, county, or town.

Prisons may be state or federal, and are for long-term confinement.

I just learned something new about your system.

362 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:22:08pm

re: #356 marjoriemoon

Failed isn't the right word, true. It's just that pregnant at fifteen makes my heart wrench. Even with the most loving and supportive family around it's just such a heavy thing to happen to a child.

363 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:22:15pm

too much competition to get into the bottom rated comments tonight

364 Four More Tears  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:22:25pm

Remember when Rush Limbaugh did time for the oxycontin, and later viagra, that wasn't legally purchased by himself?

Me neither.

365 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:22:57pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

I don't know, but even if she would not be deterred, that does not deter me. Desperation is not a legal defense. To refuse to take action allows people to walk all over the law and that is not be done. To do that is encourage others to break the law.

At the time, how much jail time were you calling for Rush Limbaugh to get? Seems like he made a much greater example of flaunting the law. Now I don't think either of them should get jail time or be convicted for the crime of controlling their bodies, but the fact is that this woman was in a much more desperate situation.

366 blueraven  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:23:08pm

re: #322 jamesfirecat

See my #281... if the government doesn't pay for the abortion, they're probably going to end up paying in other ways instead...

James, I hate to say it but that is a really bad argument. Abortion shouldn't happen just because a mother is poor or the child may not turn out perfectly. Its not a cost effectiveness issue.

Its an issue of choice and rights over your own body. The govt has never funded abortion but should continue to fund PP for birth control education/counseling and women's health services. And aid poor families.

367 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:23:49pm

re: #359 Dark_Falcon

It's not only about people like her, Obdi. If you let someone walk because they claim desperation, you open the doors to similar claims in other cases.

Actually, the way the law works, you more open the door to similar claims in other cases of the same type-- where the woman wasn't committing this fraud for personal gain.

It's a bad idea. It's said that hard cases make for bad law, and I can see how that is true in this case.

To me, this is similar to a cancer patient buying some banned-by-the-FDA drug online. It's illegal, and and it's bad, but it's not going to help anything if you imprison that cancer patient.

368 Four More Tears  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:24:17pm

Hey, is Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds getting out any time soon...?

369 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:24:48pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

I don't know, but even if she would not be deterred, that does not deter me. Desperation is not a legal defense. To refuse to take action allows people to walk all over the law and that is not be done. To do that is encourage others to break the law.


When you watch prison movies, do you root for the warden?

370 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:25:25pm

re: #359 Dark_Falcon

It's not only about people like her, Obdi. If you let someone walk because they claim desperation, you open the doors to similar claims in other cases. It's a bad idea. It's said that hard cases make for bad law, and I can see how that is true in this case.

Dark I know that this is hard for you to grasp because you like to follow the rules... but rather than let bad law stand and continue to create tragedies.... you over turn it, erase it, and remove it.

I mean CHRIST you've already said that you would have been a loyalist during the American Revolution... I suppose you would have been against the civil rights movement also because Jim Crowe was established law also?

(I'm not trying to pigeon hole you on this one Dark I want to hear your thoughts on the matter)

371 Four More Tears  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:25:35pm

re: #369 BongCrodny

When you watch prison movies, do you root for the warden?

"What did you call me?!?"

"Obtuse..."

372 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:25:43pm

re: #356 marjoriemoon

Well, there are a lot of gals who get pregnant during teenhood. That doesn't mean society failed her.

But it comes down to, If she had affordable and accessible care, she may not have had to do something so dangerous.

Why did they get pregnant as teens? That is where society failed.

373 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:25:44pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

I don't know, but even if she would not be deterred, that does not deter me. Desperation is not a legal defense. To refuse to take action allows people to walk all over the law and that is not be done. To do that is encourage others to break the law.

It's a constitutional right to have an abortion. Republican lawmakers finally realized that they can't do anything about that so they make it difficult for women to take advantage of this constitutional right. How can you defend that?

And whether you agree that Roe v Wade was decided correctly is not the point. THAT is the law and it has not changed.

374 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:26:10pm

re: #369 BongCrodny

When you watch prison movies, do you root for the warden?

Sometimes.

375 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:26:33pm

re: #360 Charles

And yes, I'm thoroughly disgusted with people who try to make excuses for this far right lunacy.

This country is turning into something I don't even recognize.

You'd recognize it if you were around in the 1930s or 40s. Actually, we're not going there--the troglodytes just want us to.

376 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:26:52pm

re: #369 BongCrodny

When you watch prison movies, do you root for the warden?

Yes. And when I watch heist movies, I root for the cops or FBI.

377 Four More Tears  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:27:26pm

re: #369 BongCrodny

When you watch prison movies, do you root for the warden?

Only when I watch Caged Heat...

378 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:27:43pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

I don't know, but even if she would not be deterred, that does not deter me. Desperation is not a legal defense. To refuse to take action allows people to walk all over the law and that is not be done. To do that is encourage others to break the law.

Have you recently been reading Judge Dredd comics or something?

379 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:29:29pm

re: #376 Dark_Falcon

What about when you watch a movie about the civil rights era? Do you root for the cops then, too?

I would expect you don't.

380 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:29:32pm

re: #372 b_sharp

Why did they get pregnant as teens? That is where society failed.

Because they're horny?

There, but for the grace of God, go I, and all that. (some are luckier than others)

381 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:29:40pm

no shit...stunning
the stuff you learn

382 blueraven  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:30:00pm

re: #376 Dark_Falcon

Yes. And when I watch heist movies, I root for the cops or FBI.

Yikes...Shawshank Redemption. Root for the warden? Please tell me no!

383 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:30:10pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

I don't know, but even if she would not be deterred, that does not deter me. Desperation is not a legal defense. To refuse to take action allows people to walk all over the law and that is not be done. To do that is encourage others to break the law.

I plan to encourage as many people as possible to break this law.

384 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:30:19pm

re: #366 blueraven

James, I hate to say it but that is a really bad argument. Abortion shouldn't happen just because a mother is poor or the child may not turn out perfectly. Its not a cost effectiveness issue.

Its an issue of choice and rights over your own body. The govt has never funded abortion but should continue to fund PP for birth control education/counseling and women's health services. And aid poor families.

Thank you for your counter point.

I was trying (and failing) to produce a sort of "good for the goose good for the gander" argument along the lines of how if Socons care so much about making sure that children are raised in healthy mom and dad families than maybe they should do more to make sure that children aren't born into situations where their mother doesn't want them.

Or at least that is one thing I was contemplating doing.

I still feel that the government should fund abortion directly though, after all we're funding vigra directly on healthcare plans aren't we?

385 JAFO  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:30:34pm

re: #372 b_sharp

Why did they get pregnant as teens? That is where society failed.

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with a GUY that can't keep his dick in his pants.

386 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:30:58pm

re: #370 jamesfirecat

Dark I know that this is hard for you to grasp because you like to follow the rules... but rather than let bad law stand and continue to create tragedies... you over turn it, erase it, and remove it.

I mean CHRIST you've already said that you would have been a loyalist during the American Revolution... I suppose you would have been against the civil rights movement also because Jim Crowe was established law also?

(I'm not trying to pigeon hole you on this one Dark I want to hear your thoughts on the matter)

No, I wouldn't be, because segregation was in fact unconstitutional. That the Supreme Court was unwilling to fight it in Plessy vs. Ferguson does not mean segregation was lawful. It means that the North gave up trying to reform the South. The 14th and 15th Amendments were still there and when the will was found, their meaning could finally be made into reality.

387 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:31:14pm

re: #378 negativ

Have you recently been reading Judge Dredd comics or something?

DF didn't make up this position--"Let justice be done though the heavens fall." I don't think we rooted for the same team in Les Misrables.

388 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:31:22pm

re: #385 mracb

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with a GUY that can't keep his dick in his pants.

And those guys are the ones who arrest and prosecute women like this.

389 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:31:59pm

re: #386 Dark_Falcon

No, I wouldn't be, because segregation was in fact unconstitutional. That the Supreme Court was unwilling to fight it in Plessy vs. Ferguson does not mean segregation was lawful. It means that the North gave up trying to reform the South. The 14th and 15th Amendments were still there and when the will was found, their meaning could finally be made into reality.

Do you feel that "Roe V Wade should make "Unlawful abortion" laws illegal? Because that is what this woman has been charged with not with fraud in relation to her getting the drugs she used to terminate her pregnancy.

390 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:32:06pm

re: #266 Charles

This kind of right wing thinking is why Roe v. Wade was passed in the first place -- the country was sickened by it.

And now the right wing is sneaking back, passing legislation to restore the misogynistic laws of the early 20th century, and hoping nobody notices until it's too late.

We're noticing.
And we're not alone.
THIS SHIT HAS GOT TO STOP.
It will at the ballot box.

391 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:32:17pm

re: #382 blueraven

Yikes...Shawshank Redemption. Root for the warden? Please tell me no!

Well, not all the time. I root for the law, not for a corrupt asshole who brutalizes, kills and steals under cover of law.

392 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:32:39pm

I know we aren't supposed to play amateur psychiatrist and all that, but I feel great compassion for this woman. Just based on things she said and did, I feel like this was heartbreaking all around.

Maybe some compassion beforehand might have helped things?

393 JAFO  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:32:50pm

re: #388 Charles

And those guys are the ones who arrest and prosecute women like this.

I like to think that most of us don't want a woman to pay for our sins.

394 3CPO  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:33:18pm

re: #383 Charles

Isn't that how bad laws are changed? Roe v Wade didn't start out in the Supreme Court, it started in the US District Court in Texas, and was appealed all the way up.

395 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:33:23pm

re: #379 Obdicut

What about when you watch a movie about the civil rights era? Do you root for the cops then, too?

I would expect you don't.

re: #386 Dark_Falcon

No, I wouldn't be, because segregation was in fact unconstitutional. That the Supreme Court was unwilling to fight it in Plessy vs. Ferguson does not mean segregation was lawful. It means that the North gave up trying to reform the South. The 14th and 15th Amendments were still there and when the will was found, their meaning could finally be made into reality.

Does that answer your question?

396 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:33:54pm

re: #282 JasonA

Maddow recently made the point that any abortion case getting to this bench could be very very bad for Progressives.

Maybe. The fact is, I do not think the current court wants to overturn Roe.

397 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:33:56pm

re: #360 Charles

What happened to "land of the free & the home of the brave"?

398 blueraven  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:34:11pm

re: #384 jamesfirecat

Thank you for your counter point.

I was trying (and failing) to produce a sort of "good for the goose good for the gander" argument along the lines of how if Socons care so much about making sure that children are raised in healthy mom and dad families than maybe they should do more to make sure that children aren't born into situations where their mother doesn't want them.

Or at least that is one thing I was contemplating doing.

I still feel that the government should fund abortion directly though, after all we're funding vigra directly on healthcare plans aren't we?

I dont get the connection between viagra on healthcare plans and govt supported abortions.

In fact I dont get the viagra connection at all.

399 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:34:21pm

re: #391 Dark_Falcon

Well, not all the time. I root for the law, not for a corrupt asshole who brutalizes, kills and steals under cover of law.

you don't root for the law, you worship it...even bad law...it's like you are intoxicated with 1s and 0s

400 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:34:27pm

re: #363 SpaceJesus

too much competition to get into the bottom rated comments tonight

You know you can do it, if you try!

401 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:34:38pm

re: #378 negativ

Have you recently been reading Judge Dredd comics or something?

No, but I've read the rules for the RPG. They sell the Sourcebooks at Games Plus.

/smarting off

402 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:35:03pm

re: #393 mracb

I like to think that most of us don't want a woman to pay for our sins.

Wow. That's rather profound. For realz. Thanks for that.

403 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:35:13pm

re: #380 marjoriemoon

Because they're horny?

There, but for the grace of God, go I, and all that. (some are luckier than others)

Many girls get horny, but they don't get pregnant. The failure is in poor education, stigmatizing anti-pregnancy aids, contributing to poor self image, and reinforcing the idea a girl needs a guy to complete herself.

404 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:35:39pm

re: #395 Dark_Falcon

So, there are cases where you think those breaking the law are in the right.

In this case, I don't think this woman was 'right' to buy the drugs online. I don't think, however, that the actual attempt to make herself abort should be criminal. In Idaho, it is.

What about that law? Not the fraud one, the one that actually criminalizes the attempt to induce abortion?

405 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:35:54pm

re: #396 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe. The fact is, I do not think the current court wants to overturn Roe.

Your confidence will be better founded if President Obama gets to nominate a few more justices.

406 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:35:56pm

re: #396 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe. The fact is, I do not think the current court wants to overturn Roe.

The way things are going, it won't be necessary to overturn Roe v. Wade. The Republican Party will just keep chipping away at women's rights, making it more and more difficult to get a legal abortion, until the law is simply moot.

That's their plan. And it's working.

407 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:36:13pm

re: #327 EmmmieG

I'm wondering why she had her sister get the drugs. Why couldn't she?

Might not have a credit card of her own? Or computer access? Or known how to do it?

408 Stanghazi  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:36:17pm

Bleah mavericks

409 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:36:57pm

re: #396 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe. The fact is, I do not think the current court wants to overturn Roe.

The real problem now is that they don't have to. They don't have worry one bit about Roe v Wade if they make it impossible for a woman to have an abortion.

410 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:37:18pm

re: #267 publicityStunted

This is not a "conservative" position. It's authoritarian.

Do you want to be an authoritarian?

He's pretty open about this, said he would have rooted for the Spanish Republicans in their civil war, would have been a Tory in the American Revolution. Give him credit, he doesn't hide his go along to get along authoritarian streak or pretend to be something he isn't. Dark strongly values stability, and embraces a status quo, don't make waves / rock the boat philosophy.

I'm simultaneously appalled by his stances and impressed with his honesty.

411 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:37:23pm

Their are stories which one encounters from time to time about women who claim,right up until time to give birth, that they had no idea they were pregnant.
I'm no medico and have no explanation for this.

This woman saying that she thought she was 14 weeks along falls into that same category.

412 albusteve  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:38:16pm

re: #406 Charles

The way things are going, it won't be necessary to overturn Roe v. Wade. The Republican Party will just keep chipping away at women's rights, making it more and more difficult to get a legal abortion, until the law is simply moot.

That's their plan. And it's working.

any prediction of TP and the the like, spiraling down in flames, is premature

413 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:38:16pm

re: #385 mracb

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with a GUY that can't keep his dick in his pants.

That's part of it.

Now, why does the guy think his dick doesn't need a coat, and why does the girl allow him to go uncovered?

414 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:38:25pm

re: #343 abolitionist

And people who wouldn't rat out their friends and neighbors, brothers and sisters, and complete strangers, who were hiding Jews, broke the law too.

Christine O'Donnell said she wouldn't have broken the law.

She did, however, rip off campaign funds for personal gain.

415 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:38:32pm

re: #398 blueraven

I dont get the connection between viagra on healthcare plans and govt supported abortions.

In fact I dont get the viagra connection at all.

The ability to have an erection is very important to the fellas and should be protected at all costs. The ability for a woman to deal with the aftermath of that, not so much.

416 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:38:42pm

re: #407 SanFranciscoZionist

Might not have a credit card of her own? Or computer access? Or known how to do it?

Possibly. Or there was someone in the house she was trying to hide it from.

417 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:39:02pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

I don't know, but even if she would not be deterred, that does not deter me. Desperation is not a legal defense. To refuse to take action allows people to walk all over the law and that is not be done. To do that is encourage others to break the law.

Justice needs to be tempered with mercy. Judge Wapner taught us that.

This is not the woman to play hardball with.

Give her probation and a social worker, and send her home to her kids.

418 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:39:03pm

re: #396 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe. The fact is, I do not think the current court wants to overturn Roe.

They don't need to. All they have to do is allow "reasonable" restrictions that leave it technically legal but effectively impossible (unless your rich & white) to actually get one. And then combine that with Justice Scalia, who is not someone who would let a little thing like the constitution get in the way of his activism.

419 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:39:14pm

re: #393 mracb

I like to think that most of us don't want a woman to pay for our sins.

Oh, you weren't talking about picking up a tab every now and then...

420 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:39:36pm

I would like to say thanks for the entertainment.

King Kong effects wizard dies at 101

Harry Redmond Jr, a special effects artist and producer whose career reached back more than 80 years to the dawn of talking pictures, has died at the age of 101.

He died on May 23 in the Hollywood Hills home that he and his wife designed and built more than six decades ago.

Redmond got his first big break at RKO Radio Pictures, where he worked on such films as King Kong (1933), The Last Days of Pompeii (1935), She (1935) and Top Hat (1935).

As an independent, he went on to create effects for such classics as Frank Capra's Lost Horizon (1937), Howard Hawks' Only Angels Have Wings (1939), Howard Hughes' The Outlaw (1943), Fritz Lang's The Woman in the Window (1944) and Orson Welles' The Stranger (1946).

Redmond would often work one-on-one with the director to provide a specific effect. In The Woman in the Window, he and Lang collaborated on the striking transition shot of Edward G. Robinson at the film's end, doing it all in real time, in camera, with no cuts and no post-production work.

While working on The Prisoner of Zenda (1937) for David O Selznick, Redmond met Dorothea Holt, a pioneering production illustrator who was designing the interiors for Gone With the Wind (1939) and Alfred Hitchcock's Rebecca (1940).

They were married in 1940.

After World War II, during which he designed and built a studio for the Army Film Training Lab, Redmond returned to Hollywood to work on such films as the Marx Brothers' A Night in Casablanca (1946).

Redmond was never nominated for an Oscar or an Emmy, nor did he receive any industry awards.

421 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:40:09pm

re: #417 SanFranciscoZionist

Justice needs to be tempered with mercy. Judge Wapner taught us that.

This is not the woman to play hardball with.

Give her probation and a social worker, and send her home to her kids.

Judge Wapner? How about Christ?

422 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:40:11pm

re: #411 Capitalist Tool

*There are...

423 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:40:31pm

re: #417 SanFranciscoZionist

LOL!
Judge Wapner?

424 JAFO  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:41:15pm

re: #413 b_sharp

That's part of it.

Now, why does the guy think his dick doesn't need a coat, and why does the girl allow him to go uncovered?

The lust of the moment. I think we all have experienced it.

425 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:41:28pm

Fox
Image: E2ytt.png

426 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:41:32pm

If you think this story is sad, there will be more coming. Make abortion virtually illegal by making it inaccessible and then cut social services and health care to poor and young women in particular and this is what you get. These stories will be epidemic as women will use pharmaceutical means to abort as opposed to coat hangers. It's as if this country has forgotten why we created a social safety net and legalized abortion in the first place. But when you vote for people who don't believe in social safety nets or abortion rights, what else would you expect?

The answer to this is quite simple: People who believe in having a strong social safety net and abortion rights need to stop voting for politicians who don't. NOW!

427 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:42:02pm

re: #411 Capitalist Tool

Their are stories which one encounters from time to time about women who claim,right up until time to give birth, that they had no idea they were pregnant.
I'm no medico and have no explanation for this.

This woman saying that she thought she was 14 weeks along falls into that same category.


My mother had a teacher who delivered a baby in the art closet.

She was:

Over 40 and thought she was going through menopause.

Heavy enough not to show or feel the kicks as much.

428 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:42:15pm

Here are some more Idaho abortion laws:

[Link: www.prochoiceamerica.org...]

A woman may not obtain an abortion until the physician provides her with an "accurate and substantially complete explanation" of: (1) a description of the proposed procedure; (2) any reasonably foreseeable complications and risks associated with the proposed procedure, including those related to future reproductive health; and (3) the comparable risks associated with each alternative to such procedure, including childbirth and adoption.

In addition, a woman may not obtain an abortion until, if reasonably possible, at least 24 hours after she has been provided with "non-misleading and medically accurate" state-prepared materials that must include: (1) photographs of a fetus and descriptions of its anatomical and physiological characteristics at two-week intervals; (2) a description of services available to assist a woman throughout pregnancy, upon childbirth, and while a child is dependent, including adoption services, and a comprehensive list of public and private agencies providing such services; (3) descriptions of the procedures used at the various stages of pregnancy; and (4) foreseeable risks and complications of the procedures, including those related to subsequent childbearing.

[Link: www.prochoiceamerica.org...]

Disability insurance policies, individual insurance policies, and managed-care plans must exclude coverage for abortion services unless necessary to preserve the woman's life. Coverage may be obtained only if the carrier elects to offer it and an additional premium is paid. Idaho Code §§ 41-2142, 2210A, 3439 (Enacted 1983); Idaho Code § 41-3924 (Enacted 1983; Last Amended 1997).

Idaho prohibits certain qualified health-care professionals from providing abortion services, and has an unconstitutional and unenforceable law that subjects abortion providers to burdensome restrictions not applied to other medical professionals.


[Link: www.prochoiceamerica.org...]

Restrictions on Where Abortion Services May Be Provided

Among the most common TRAP regulations are those restricting the provision of abortion services to hospitals or other specialized facilities, which require doctors to obtain medically unnecessary additional licenses, needlessly convert their practices to mini-hospitals at great expense, or provide abortion services only in hospitals, an impossibility in many parts of the country.

Idaho has an unconstitutional requirement that all second-trimester abortion services be provided in a hospital. Idaho Code § 18-608(2) (Enacted 1973).
The U.S. Supreme Court held that a strict second-trimester hospitalization requirement unconstitutionally burdens a woman's right to choose. Akron v. Akron Ctr. for Reprod. Health, 462 U.S. 416 (1983).

The Idaho attorney general has concluded that Idaho's second-trimester hospitalization requirement is unconstitutional. Idaho Op. Att'y Gen. No. 98-1 (Jan. 26, 1998).

429 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:42:15pm

re: #403 b_sharp

Many girls get horny, but they don't get pregnant. The failure is in poor education, stigmatizing anti-pregnancy aids, contributing to poor self image, and reinforcing the idea a girl needs a guy to complete herself.

There's a lot of luck involved.

I don't think you mean to blame girls, but it's coming off that way. We, of course, have to bear (quite literally) the consequences in a way the boys do not. Maybe if they had more access to birth control it wouldn't be as bad, but it will always be. Not for lack of self image, or society pressure or whatever. Raging hormones are raging.

430 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:43:01pm

re: #426 moderatelyradicalliberal

Coat hangers, are in danger of becoming fashionable, again.
Along with back alley "Doctors".

431 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:43:27pm

re: #406 Charles

re: #409 marjoriemoon

Yea, what he said :p

432 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:44:25pm

re: #389 jamesfirecat

Do you feel that "Roe V Wade should make "Unlawful abortion" laws illegal? Because that is what this woman has been charged with not with fraud in relation to her getting the drugs she used to terminate her pregnancy.

No, I don't. What you describe is not the intent of Roe v. Wade, at least as I understand it. The law did not strike down the concept of "illegal abortion", it greatly limited what abortions could be made illegal. Laws requiring abortions be performed by a doctor have been upheld by the courts.

433 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:44:35pm

re: #428 Obdicut

What IS it about Idaho?
Can't be the potatoes....

434 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:45:22pm

re: #433 Floral Giraffe


LDS

435 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:45:26pm

re: #432 Dark_Falcon

Dark, what do you think of the laws I cited in my above post?

436 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:46:14pm

re: #433 Floral Giraffe

What IS it about Idaho?
Can't be the potatoes...

400+ posts and not a single

No, YOUdaho

437 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:46:52pm

re: #396 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe. The fact is, I do not think the current court wants to overturn Roe.

I'm not sure about that. I haven't seen any evidence that right wingers in all branches of the government aren't going for the kill. They know that their time to fundamentally remake the country and take it back to the 1950's (or 1850's) is limited. It's now or never. Do or die. The Conservative Movement has gone full bore against everything and everyone they hate so I'm not the least bit comfortable with a challenge to Roe going to the SC anytime soon.

438 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:47:04pm

re: #428 Obdicut

Here are some more Idaho abortion laws:

[Link: www.prochoiceamerica.org...]

[Link: www.prochoiceamerica.org...]


[Link: www.prochoiceamerica.org...]

Thanks for posting those links.

This is what a woman in Idaho has to go through -- and every one of these laws was written, promoted, and signed into law by a religious fanatic.

439 JAFO  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:47:47pm

re: #406 Charles

The way things are going, it won't be necessary to overturn Roe v. Wade. The Republican Party will just keep chipping away at women's rights, making it more and more difficult to get a legal abortion, until the law is simply moot.

That's their plan. And it's working.

That's scary. That means they have learned to take small incremental steps, instead of "we have to have it all right now" philosophy of legislating and failing because of it. They are starting to learn from their mistakes. This could be bad.

440 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:48:14pm

re: #416 EmmmieG

Possibly. Or there was someone in the house she was trying to hide it from.


Just speculating, but maybe since abortion is so restrictive, the drugs required aren't available at the pharmacy, or maybe the pharmacist is required to report any such prescriptions.

Any number of reasons.

I note from the story that she took the drugs on Christmas Eve.

This is not a woman that's going to be helped by jail time.

441 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:49:30pm

re: #437 moderatelyradicalliberal

I'm not sure about that. I haven't seen any evidence that right wingers in all branches of the government aren't going for the kill. They know that their time to fundamentally remake the country and take it back to the 1950's (or 1850's) is limited. It's now or never. Do or die. The Conservative Movement has gone full bore against everything and everyone they hate so I'm not the least bit comfortable with a challenge to Roe going to the SC anytime soon.

Absolutely. I believe that the right wing knows their time is coming to an end, and so they're engaging in an all-out effort to do as much damage to "liberal" laws as possible. They know that a lot of their crap won't stand up to legal challenges, but they're in a nihilistic, blind frenzy to roll back all the progress of the past century, while they still think they can.

442 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:50:36pm

re: #440 BongCrodny

Just speculating, but maybe since abortion is so restrictive, the drugs required aren't available at the pharmacy, or maybe the pharmacist is required to report any such prescriptions.

Any number of reasons.

I note from the story that she took the drugs on Christmas Eve.

This is not a woman that's going to be helped by jail time.

Helping women isn't the point. Punishing women is the point. These are religious fanatics who want women to suffer and be shamed for their sins and being uppity sluts. They have been pissed for the last 40 years that their ability to do that has been so diminished. Until now that is.

443 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:50:41pm

re: #432 Dark_Falcon

No, I don't. What you describe is not the intent of Roe v. Wade, at least as I understand it. The law did not strike down the concept of "illegal abortion", it greatly limited what abortions could be made illegal. Laws requiring abortions be performed by a doctor have been upheld by the courts.

RU-486 is also legal in this country.

444 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:51:15pm

Zero Punctuation: L.A. Noire

445 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:51:53pm

re: #440 BongCrodny

Just speculating, but maybe since abortion is so restrictive, the drugs required aren't available at the pharmacy, or maybe the pharmacist is required to report any such prescriptions.

Any number of reasons.

I note from the story that she took the drugs on Christmas Eve.

This is not a woman that's going to be helped by jail time.

There are a couple of options here that I see:

She didn't have a computer or a possibly a credit card.

She had a reason for not wanting the drugs to come to her house.

Her sister did it because she had been talking about it and her sister was trying to help.

Her sister had access to something she didn't for reasons not explained.

I'm just curious as to why the sister ordered the medication.

446 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:53:40pm

re: #441 Charles

Absolutely. I believe that the right wing knows their time is coming to an end, and so they're engaging in an all-out effort to do as much damage to "liberal" laws as possible. They know that a lot of their crap won't stand up to legal challenges, but they're in a nihilistic, blind frenzy to roll back all the progress of the past century, while they still think they can.

I think Chris Rock said it best when describing the right wing today. He said they are like children and children always act up and throw the worst tantrums before they have to go to sleep. Please God, let them go to sleep soon.

447 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:53:56pm

re: #438 Charles

Thanks for posting those links.

This is what a woman in Idaho has to go through -- and every one of these laws was written, promoted, and signed into law by a religious fanatic.

That wasn't even all of them. Here's the full NARAL Idaho profile:

[Link: www.prochoiceamerica.org...]

448 Interesting Times  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:54:27pm

re: #438 Charles

Thanks for posting those links.

This is what a woman in Idaho has to go through -- and every one of these laws was written, promoted, and signed into law by a religious fanatic.

Speaking of Idaho religious fanatics, don't forget about this:

Pharmacist Denies Anti-Bleeding Medication Because Woman Might Have Had an Abortion

A pharmacist at a Nampa, Idaho, Walgreens refused to dispense medication that stops uterine bleeding because she suspected the woman may have had an abortion. The pharmacist invoked the state's new so-called conscience clause that allows pharmacists to refuse to fill prescriptions for emergency contraceptives and abortifacient drugs, among other things, if they have a personal problem with it.

449 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:55:34pm

re: #409 marjoriemoon

The real problem now is that they don't have to. They don't have worry one bit about Roe v Wade if they make it impossible for a woman to have an abortion.

It's also a problem, though, if we get so worried about the Supremes that we avoid creating cases.

450 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:56:40pm

re: #443 marjoriemoon

RU-486 is also legal in this country.

And if she'd used that I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

451 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:57:18pm

re: #450 Dark_Falcon

And if she'd used that I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

Maybe that's what she used.

452 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:57:28pm

re: #450 Dark_Falcon

And if she'd used that I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

You have no idea what she used.

453 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:57:43pm

re: #449 SanFranciscoZionist

It's also a problem, though, if we get so worried about the Supremes that we avoid creating cases.

Not sure I follow you. Creating cases?

454 Obdicut  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:57:59pm

re: #450 Dark_Falcon

And if she'd used that I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

So, to be clear, you do not agree with the law that criminalizes the attempt to make one's self miscarry?

455 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:58:08pm

re: #447 Obdicut

That wasn't even all of them. Here's the full NARAL Idaho profile:

[Link: www.prochoiceamerica.org...]

And Idaho is just one of 50 states. This is going on in nearly every state of the union.

When I use the subtitle "The Republican Party's total war on women's rights" it's not hyperbole. It's a simple statement of fact.

456 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:58:32pm

re: #423 Floral Giraffe

LOL!
Judge Wapner?

My childhood TV choices are showing.

457 blueraven  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:58:40pm

re: #415 marjoriemoon

The ability to have an erection is very important to the fellas and should be protected at all costs. The ability for a woman to deal with the aftermath of that, not so much.

True but no one is talking about taking viagra away, or govt funding for it.

I would equate viagra more with birth control pills than with abortion.

458 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:59:10pm

re: #429 marjoriemoon

There's a lot of luck involved.

I don't think you mean to blame girls, but it's coming off that way. We, of course, have to bear (quite literally) the consequences in a way the boys do not. Maybe if they had more access to birth control it wouldn't be as bad, but it will always be. Not for lack of self image, or society pressure or whatever. Raging hormones are raging.

Where did I blame the girls?

I blamed social systems like demonizing accurate information in health class and refusing to teach sexuality at an early age. There are far too many kids out there that have ridiculous ideas of how pregnancy happens, like the girl can't get pregnant the first time, or ejaculating on the outside of the vulva will not cause pregnancy. It's a stupid side effect of the abstinence movement.

I also blamed society for refusing to supply kids with condoms and/or birth control, and forcing teens to get parental permission for contraceptives even when the parents are idiots.

I blame society for not teaching the girls they control their own bodies and the boys have to stop when they no, and for not helping the girl gain enough confidence in herself she feels comfortable saying no. I blame society for not teaching the guys they have a responsibility every bit as strong as the girl's to take steps against pregnancy.

If you believe I was blaming the girl, all I can say is the inference is yours.

459 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 8:59:48pm

re: #448 publicityStunted

Speaking of Idaho religious fanatics, don't forget about this:

Pharmacist Denies Anti-Bleeding Medication Because Woman Might Have Had an Abortion

That pharmacist was in the wrong, and I would argue he violated the intent of that law. Conscience clauses are intended to prevent someone from getting a license pulled for refusing to participate in an abortion. However, dealing with post-abortion complications is not part of the law (as I understand it). You do not get to let someone bleed to death simply because you don't like how they got hurt.

460 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:00:31pm

re: #441 Charles

Absolutely. I believe that the right wing knows their time is coming to an end, and so they're engaging in an all-out effort to do as much damage to "liberal" laws as possible. They know that a lot of their crap won't stand up to legal challenges, but they're in a nihilistic, blind frenzy to roll back all the progress of the past century, while they still think they can.

I'm not so sure they're that self aware.

461 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:01:33pm

re: #450 Dark_Falcon

And if she'd used that I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

I think there's a time limit on the "abortion pill". You still have to be seen by a doctor to be sure everything comes out ok, and if I'm not mistaken, it's more of a treatment. There's a couple pills, if I'm recalling correctly.

But even so, lack of access to care, for whatever reason drove her to this decision. That is the law that should be upheld, the ability to have an abortion.

462 Interesting Times  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:02:08pm

re: #460 b_sharp

I'm not so sure they're that self aware.

Team Evil is, Team Stupid isn't.

463 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:02:15pm

re: #457 blueraven

True but no one is talking about taking viagra away, or govt funding for it.

I would equate viagra more with birth control pills than with abortion.

You can't get your insurance to pay for an abortion though. Or at least cover partial costs.

464 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:02:23pm

re: #459 Dark_Falcon

You do not get to let someone bleed to death simply because you don't like how they got hurt.

But that's exactly the situation the Republican Party's anti-abortion insanity is bringing about.

You're going to see more and more women dying in filthy back room abortion clinics, and dying of the drugs they take because the GOP has made the safe ones illegal.

It's your party. This is what they're doing. Face it.

465 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:02:58pm

re: #454 Obdicut

So, to be clear, you do not agree with the law that criminalizes the attempt to make one's self miscarry?

I think that the use of RU-486, in the manner it is directed to be used, should not be illegal, in the first trimester at least. Given that this fetus was in the second trimester, the rules are a bit different. But she did not know that, and that would also need to be taken into account. If she took RU-486 I'd need to know more before I could render judgement.

466 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:03:55pm

re: #456 SanFranciscoZionist

My childhood TV choices are showing.

HEH!
Childhood, yeah, right!
//

467 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:04:03pm

The Blunt Truth

Youtube Video
468 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:04:07pm

Good night all. I'm a working gal again so no more up all nighters for me.

469 prairiefire  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:04:12pm

re: #446 moderatelyradicalliberal

I think Chris Rock said it best when describing the right wing today. He said they are like children and children always act up and throw the worst tantrums before they have to go to sleep. Please God, let them go to sleep soon.

I had the good fortune to see Chris Rock at a comedy club in GA. He saw that the audience was 90% African American and tailored his show to lots of stories about growing up in an AA family. For instance, his dad grew up "too poor, Ya'll know what I mean." And the audience did. He said his uncle was a black militant and was married to a white lady. "The white man is trying to keep you down. The white man is awful, except for your Aunt Sandy."
It was great.

470 ibob  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:04:17pm

re: #318 albusteve

Abortion is rarely used for birth control in this country. It is usually used for birth control failures or for pregnancies that result from inavailablity to obtain birth control. In our area, birth control is still frequently frowned upon for teenage girls since it is believed to be giving permission to have premartial sex, which is be avoided at all costs by good Christian girls. The after morning pill is not available is not available to the younger teens without a parent's permission, and most of those girls are usually scared to ask their parents to buy it for them. They only talk to their parents after they are pregnant.

471 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:04:23pm

re: #465 Dark_Falcon

I think that the use of RU-486, in the manner it is directed to be used, should not be illegal, in the first trimester at least. Given that this fetus was in the second trimester, the rules are a bit different. But she did not know that, and that would also need to be taken into account. If she took RU-486 I'd need to know more before I could render judgement.

What gives you the right to "render judgment" over a woman's body?

472 iossarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:05:13pm

re: #465 Dark_Falcon

I think that the use of RU-486, in the manner it is directed to be used, should not be illegal, in the first trimester at least. Given that this fetus was in the second trimester, the rules are a bit different. But she did not know that, and that would also need to be taken into account. If she took RU-486 I'd need to know more before I could render judgement.

Before you could "render judgement"?

God, the minds of nutters never cease to fascinate.

473 iossarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:06:20pm

Bit of a drive-by, but I feel moved to ask the "safe legal and rare" crowd to pipe down during this national debate. Women should be able to have abortions, and the whole "I agree but I don't like them" noise is really, really unhelpful.

474 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:06:35pm

re: #471 Charles

What gives you the right to "render judgment" over a woman's body?

No one, repeat NO ONE has a right to "render judgement" over me.
Not my mind, or my body.
Period.
End of discussion.

475 Querent  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:07:50pm

can i get a quick "What the Fucking Fuck?!" in here before things fly fast & furious again?

476 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:07:51pm

re: #465 Dark_Falcon

I think that the use of RU-486, in the manner it is directed to be used, should not be illegal, in the first trimester at least. Given that this fetus was in the second trimester, the rules are a bit different. But she did not know that, and that would also need to be taken into account. If she took RU-486 I'd need to know more before I could render judgement.

You fail to realize that in these kinds of cases it's neither yours nor society's place to render judgement. These are private matters between a woman and whatever physician and/or deity she may wish to consult.

477 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:07:54pm

poor choice of words...

478 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:07:54pm

re: #458 b_sharp

Where did I blame the girls?

I blamed social systems like demonizing accurate information in health class and refusing to teach sexuality at an early age. There are far too many kids out there that have ridiculous ideas of how pregnancy happens, like the girl can't get pregnant the first time, or ejaculating on the outside of the vulva will not cause pregnancy. It's a stupid side effect of the abstinence movement.

I also blamed society for refusing to supply kids with condoms and/or birth control, and forcing teens to get parental permission for contraceptives even when the parents are idiots.

I blame society for not teaching the girls they control their own bodies and the boys have to stop when they no, and for not helping the girl gain enough confidence in herself she feels comfortable saying no. I blame society for not teaching the guys they have a responsibility every bit as strong as the girl's to take steps against pregnancy.

If you believe I was blaming the girl, all I can say is the inference is yours.

I may have misread you then. My bad.

It's not society though, it's the Republican party that is stopping all these things, the contraceptives, family planning clinics and so on. I also had very informative parents, but was still sexually active in my teen years.

At any rate, I have to hit the sack... it's late :(

479 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:08:04pm

re: #471 Charles

What gives you the right to "render judgment" over a woman's body?

I don't think Dark meant it that way. I think he meant make a decision on what his opinion should be.

480 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:08:43pm

re: #475 Querent

can i get a quick "What the Fucking Fuck?!" in here before things fly fast & furious again?


WHAT the FUCKING... FUCK!

481 Querent  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:09:24pm

re: #480 jamesfirecat
Yep. Just like that.

482 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:10:29pm

re: #479 b_sharp

I don't think Dark meant it that way. I think he meant make a decision on what his opinion should be.

Yes, but, well, he who lives in glass houses should not throw stones, or something like that.

483 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:10:29pm

re: #84 Alexzander

I'm not a Catholic, (or even a Christian) but I think thats highly offensive to their world-view.

The suggestion you're talking about ought to be highly offensive to anyone. That opinion that you're referencing in your post is perilously close to a that of a former poster here, who observed once that people who have a 2nd unplanned pregnancy should be sterilized.

484 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:10:35pm

re: #472 iossarian

Before you could "render judgement"?

God, the minds of nutters never cease to fascinate.

Now now, I'm usually the last person to run defense for DF, but he's walking into the combine tonight so let's try to be polite and enjoy the spectacle.

485 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:11:08pm

re: #478 marjoriemoon

I may have misread you then. My bad.

It's not society though, it's the Republican party that is stopping all these things, the contraceptives, family planning clinics and so on. I also had very informative parents, but was still sexually active in my teen years.

At any rate, I have to hit the sack... it's late :(

The right is the part of society I blame the most. The left is, or was, trying to increase information to kids.

I was a horny kid too, but I lacked information and encouragement to use condoms.

486 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:11:12pm

re: #483 reine.de.tout

It's an ugly thread.
Hope you are well?
*smooch*

487 iossarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:12:13pm

re: #479 b_sharp

I don't think Dark meant it that way. I think he meant make a decision on what his opinion should be.

Whatever, women are dying and he's pondering his judgement.

At this point, if you're voting Republican, there is no question that you are enabling these direct attacks on women's lives. (Also the poor and various minorities, but in this case it's women.) So to then pontificate about your judgement over whether a certain pharmaceutical procedure is technically legal or not is in poor taste in my opinion.

488 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:12:13pm

re: #450 Dark_Falcon

And if she'd used that I wouldn't have had a problem with it.


But if it were illegal -- the pro-life bloc is certainly against RU-486 -- then you *would* have a problem, yes?

489 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:12:23pm

re: #482 Floral Giraffe

Yes, but, well, he who lives in glass houses should not throw stones, or something like that.

I understand. I'm just trying to clear up a failure of communication.

490 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:12:35pm

re: #486 Floral Giraffe

It's an ugly thread.
Hope you are well?
*smooch*

I'm doing GREAT.
How about you?

I haven't finished looking at the whole thread yet.

491 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:13:18pm

re: #490 reine.de.tout

Good here, too.
Thread is an ugly subject.
Nice to "see" you!

492 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:13:36pm

re: #444 Killgore Trout

Zero Punctuation: L.A. Noire

First and only thing that makes me want to buy a console.

493 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:14:03pm

re: #479 b_sharp

I don't think Dark meant it that way. I think he meant make a decision on what his opinion should be.

Yeah that's what I mean. Thank you.

494 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:15:53pm

re: #491 Floral Giraffe

Good here, too.
Thread is an ugly subject.
Nice to "see" you!

Any thread that has you in it cannot be ugly.

495 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:17:13pm

re: #487 iossarian

Whatever, women are dying and he's pondering his judgement.

At this point, if you're voting Republican, there is no question that you are enabling these direct attacks on women's lives. (Also the poor and various minorities, but in this case it's women.) So to then pontificate about your judgement over whether a certain pharmaceutical procedure is technically legal or not is in poor taste in my opinion.

Abortion isn't a major issue for me. I don't vote based on it. My issues are matters such as tax policy and the size and proper role of government. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

496 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:17:21pm

re: #491 Floral Giraffe

Good here, too.
Thread is an ugly subject.
Nice to "see" you!

heh.
I'm usually around, in and out. Don't say much, though, unless I have something to say.

497 laZardo  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:18:03pm

I do not see how one can be pro-choice and conservative.

Pro-choice and libertarian (lowercase 'l' to distinguish from the extremist party), to be sure. But not conservative.

498 Querent  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:18:09pm

Hmm... there's a good job idea for me.

Clinic Bodyguard.

I could wear my steel-toe boots and my Viking armor under a big coat, and explain to the nice police officers that these protestors just kept bouncing their heads into my fist...

499 iossarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:18:54pm

re: #495 Dark_Falcon

Abortion isn't a major issue for me. I don't vote based on it. My issues are matters such as tax policy and the size and proper role of government. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

So when Republicans decide to make abortion illegal and prosecute women who miscarry, even when the causes of miscarriage are potentially natural, that wouldn't affect your vote, because you're worried about whether the top rate of tax should be 25% or 40%?

500 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:19:04pm

re: #498 Querent

Hmm... there's a good job idea for me.

Clinic Bodyguard.

I could wear my steel-toe boots and my Viking armor under a big coat, and explain to the nice police officers that these protestors just kept bouncing their heads into my fist...

Shouldn't you carry a war axe?

501 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:19:09pm

Speaking of ugly, I had five cake pops today.

I am really going to regret that tomorrow.

Didn't at the time.

(Just keeping you all updated.)

502 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:19:21pm

re: #495 Dark_Falcon

Abortion isn't a major issue for me. I don't vote based on it. My issues are matters such as tax policy and the size and proper role of government. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

The problem Dark is how many Republicans have said that they were all about tax policy and proper role of government... then once they were elected revealed themselves to be more interested in social conservative aspects of governing?

503 iossarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:20:07pm

re: #495 Dark_Falcon

Abortion isn't a major issue for me. I don't vote based on it. My issues are matters such as tax policy and the size and proper role of government. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

What would have been the bigger issue for you: the size and proper role of government or slavery?

I'd be interested to know whether a small-government pro-slavery party would get your vote.

504 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:20:32pm

re: #501 EmmmieG

Today I learned there's such a thing as "cake pops".

505 Querent  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:20:57pm

re: #500 b_sharp

Shouldn't you carry a war axe?

I do have a sword. A not-stamped-out-of-a-car-door but actually made from decent steel type sword.

And i have a vague idea of how to use it.

Which makes me dangerous.

506 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:21:54pm

re: #503 iossarian

What would have been the bigger issue for you: the size and proper role of government or slavery?

I'd be interested to know whether a small-government pro-slavery party would get your vote.

You're just trying to set him up.

Ask a reasonable question.

507 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:22:13pm

re: #495 Dark_Falcon

Abortion isn't a major issue for me. I don't vote based on it.

Yes, you do. Every time you vote for a Republican you're voting to destroy women's rights.

I know you don't like hearing it, but it's your party and this is what they're doing. Own it.

508 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:22:20pm

re: #495 Dark_Falcon

Abortion isn't a major issue for me. I don't vote based on it. My issues are matters such as tax policy and the size and proper role of government. Just so you know where I'm coming from.


Just so you know where I'm coming from, this story we're discussing in this very thread is so not the "proper role of government" it's shameful.

509 Kragar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:22:24pm

re: #505 Querent

I do have a sword. A not-stamped-out-of-a-car-door but actually made from decent steel type sword.

And i have a vague idea of how to use it.

Which makes me dangerous.

The pointy end goes in the other guy.

510 iossarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:22:42pm

re: #506 b_sharp

You're just trying to set him up.

Ask a reasonable question.

OK, how about a small-government party that wants to make homosexuality punishable by execution?

511 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:23:25pm

re: #505 Querent

Click Click Boom

512 Querent  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:23:35pm

re: #509 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The pointy end goes in the other guy.

The Arya Stark Rule: "Stick them with the pointy end"

513 Kragar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:23:55pm

I've got two little girls. Any time this kind of crap happens, I imagine what if one of them is stuck in the same situation.

This is an issue for me and another reason why the GOP lost me.

514 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:23:57pm

re: #502 jamesfirecat

The problem Dark is how many Republicans have said that they were all about tax policy and proper role of government... then once they were elected revealed themselves to be more interested in social conservative aspects of governing?

And that is precisely why the GO will implode.

They have redefined themselves to suit the evangelicals- and real conservatives and moderates are furious.

I know that first hand.

515 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:24:24pm

re: #514 researchok

GOP

516 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:26:55pm

re: #498 Querent

Hmm... there's a good job idea for me.

Clinic Bodyguard.

I could wear my steel-toe boots and my Viking armor under a big coat, and explain to the nice police officers that these protestors just kept bouncing their heads into my fist...

Once in a while you get the BIG Clinic Escort. The BIG Clinic Escort is a very large man whose mama brought him up to respect women. The BIG Clinic Escort tends to inspire protesters to fall back a bit and yell "Spare your child's life!" from a respectful distance.

Or so my college-days clinic defense friends informed me.

517 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:27:02pm

re: #494 b_sharp

Any thread that has you in it cannot be ugly.

Aww, aren't you sweet!

518 laZardo  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:27:05pm

re: #514 researchok

And that is precisely why the GO will implode.

They have redefined themselves to suit the evangelicals- and real conservatives and moderates are furious.

I know that first hand.

Isn't that kind of what they are? I mean, the masks are now off.

519 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:27:20pm

And to deranged Stalker "Internet Septic Tank Engineer", who insulted Charles, iceweasel and myself in the same post, I offer the following invitation:

You are cordially invited to go fuck yourself.

520 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:27:30pm

re: #514 researchok

And that is precisely why the GO will implode.

They have redefined themselves to suit the evangelicals- and real conservatives and moderates are furious.

I know that first hand.

Yes.

521 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:27:53pm

re: #511 Capitalist Tool

Click Click Boom

Boom boom

Youtube Video
522 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:28:09pm

I posted this in one of the Pages links earlier today, but think that it needs to be restated, with emphasis.

------

This has nothing to do with the "protection of the unborn", as much as these people would want you to believe it. What it DOES have everything to do with is the restricting (or outright removal) of reproductive/sexual freedom for women.

Let's examine the evidence - just look at every piece of legislation that's been proposed (or passed).

Cutting Funding for Planned Parenthood.
Restricting access to abortion services, and banning any public AND PRIVATE insurance agency for payment of the consultation and procedure expenses.
Forcing of women to undergo invasive procedures when considering pregnancy termination.
Forcing of women to be subject to religious brow-beating (via "crisis pregnancy centers") when considering pregnancy termination.
Redefining of abortion to pretty much every female contraceptive.
Abstinence-only sex education that is directed specifically toward women (see "purity contracts", etc)

The re-definition of rape.

If it was strictly a "sanctity of life" argument, they would be donating money hand-over-fist to organizations dedicated to the health of pregnant women and infants - which other than their own "front" organizations, DOES. NOT. HAPPEN.

Add to all of this the fact that there is almost no lip service given to birth control on the male side, and pretty much not a single word said about men's responsibility - I can't think of a single time when they have represented women in child-support cases. On the other hand, I can think of multiple instances where they have forced women to stand up in front of their church congregations begging for forgiveness for an out-of-wedlock pregnancy - even when said female was a victim of rape.

523 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:28:15pm

re: #505 Querent

I do have a sword. A not-stamped-out-of-a-car-door but actually made from decent steel type sword.

And i have a vague idea of how to use it.

Which makes me dangerous.

You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded wooden door.

There is a small mailbox here.

524 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:28:35pm

re: #505 Querent

"Vague" idea of how to use it, makes you dangerous.
"Solid" idea & skilled makes you awesome!

525 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:28:56pm

re: #510 iossarian

OK, how about a small-government party that wants to make homosexuality punishable by execution?

Clear violation of the 8th Amendment. Next strawman.

526 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:29:01pm

re: #509 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The pointy end goes in the other guy.

LOL!

527 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:29:20pm

re: #518 laZardo

Isn't that kind of what they are? I mean, the masks are now off.

That is where they at, yes.

They will lose support as conservatives and moderates stay home in disgust.

They will self correct.

528 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:29:33pm

re: #510 iossarian

OK, how about a small-government party that wants to make homosexuality punishable by execution?

Still not realistic, and I think you know what his answer would be. Only an idiot would prioritize small government over such a morally execrable position. I have no problem with asking hard questions, but I don't like 'gotcha' type questions, they're too Bill O'Reilly.

529 JAFO  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:29:41pm

re: #516 SanFranciscoZionist

Once in a while you get the BIG Clinic Escort. The BIG Clinic Escort is a very large man whose mama brought him up to respect women. The BIG Clinic Escort tends to inspire protesters to fall back a bit and yell "Spare your child's life!" from a respectful distance.

Or so my college-days clinic defense friends informed me.


It's not the protestors, it's the pipe bombs.

530 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:30:26pm

re: #523 negativ

You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded wooden door.

There is a small mailbox here.


Ooooooooooo.

>NUKE HOUSE, MAILBOX AND FIELD.

531 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:30:28pm

re: #500 b_sharp

Shouldn't you carry a war axe?

FYI: The Otto's, Brian and Tena, make and sell the best axes I've ever seen. Bought a fokos/valaska walking stick and a tomahawk from them in the last year, just insanely sharp, well made, light and strong. Fantastic stuff.

532 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:30:31pm

re: #521 Killgore Trout

Youtube Video
533 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:30:52pm

re: #520 reine.de.tout

Yes.

The good news is when the GOP does self correct- and they will- th eevangelicals will be bacl on TV Sunday mornings, collecting money for all kids of projects.

Which is exactly where they belong.

Anywhere but Washington.

534 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:30:57pm

re: #525 Dark_Falcon

Clear violation of the 8th Amendment. Next strawman.

Dark what about the some members of the GOP's support for Uganda's law making homosexuality an executable crime?

The fact that we have laws set up to prevent such things doesn't excuse the fact that your party has some socons who are exporting that particular brand of crazy anywhere that can take it.

So no, it isn't a straw man, not in my eyes....

535 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:31:08pm

re: #529 mracb

It's not the protestors, it's the pipe bombs.

BIG Clinic Escort can't help much with those. He's not that big.

536 iossarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:31:19pm

re: #525 Dark_Falcon

Clear violation of the 8th Amendment. Next strawman.

What's being done to women is a "clear violation of the 8th amendment", but you don't appear to give a shit about that. "Abortion is not a big issue for me."

At least be consistent in your bullshit.

537 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:31:33pm

'Night.

538 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:31:48pm

re: #536 iossarian

GAZE

539 windsagio  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:32:29pm

re: #538 Dark_Falcon

I haven't heard that term for a while >

540 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:33:03pm

re: #533 researchok

The good news is when the GOP does self correct- and they will- th eevangelicals will be bacl on TV Sunday mornings, collecting money for all kids of projects.

Which is exactly where they belong.

Anywhere but Washington.

Exactly when will this "self-correction" take place? They have been increasing, not decreasing in influence since the 1980s. That's thirty years. More than one generation - and they are solidifying their base, not eroding.

541 iossarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:33:09pm

re: #538 Dark_Falcon

GAZE

Knock yourself out, Mr. "I like to know all the facts before I pass judgement."

542 darthstar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:33:29pm

Fuck you, Idaho.

543 laZardo  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:33:56pm

re: #528 b_sharp

Still not realistic, and I think you know what his answer would be. Only an idiot would prioritize small government over such a morally execrable position. I have no problem with asking hard questions, but I don't like 'gotcha' type questions, they're too Bill O'Reilly.

Unless you have a government that's "small" enough not to intervene when state governments (note the whole "states rights" buzzword) decide to come up with such laws - or export them elsewhere.

544 Kragar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:34:07pm

re: #542 darthstar

Fuck you, Idaho.

Wait, you're da ho?

/Been waiting hours to use that one.

545 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:34:11pm

re: #522 RadicalModerate

If it was strictly a "sanctity of life" argument, they would be donating money hand-over-fist to organizations dedicated to the health of pregnant women and infants

And also going batshit insane over civilian casualties in war (which necessarily includes infants, toddlers, pregnant women, etc.).

546 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:34:12pm

re: #534 jamesfirecat

Dark what about the some members of the GOP's support for Uganda's law making homosexuality an executable crime?

The fact that we have laws set up to prevent such things doesn't excuse the fact that your party has some socons who are exporting that particular brand of crazy anywhere that can take it.

So no, it isn't a straw man, not in my eyes...

To be clear- supporting the Uganda agenda isn't about social conservatism. It is about opportunism and a new avenue for financial support.

I'm a social conservative. I support abortion rights and want to see it safe, legal and rare.

I support gay marriage and religious rights and freedoms.

I could go on, but you get the point.

547 windsagio  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:34:25pm

re: #542 darthstar

And we're back on center.

They're the retarded 1-eyed stepchild of the pacific northwest.

548 iossarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:34:41pm

Seriously, forcing a woman to witness her own stillbirth is not a violation of the 8th amendment?

I guess "cruel and unusual" has a pretty tight definition in the interesting minds of GOP voters.

549 laZardo  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:35:01pm

re: #546 researchok

To be clear- supporting the Uganda agenda isn't about social conservatism. It is about opportunism and a new avenue for financial support.

I'm a social conservative. I support abortion rights and want to see it safe, legal and rare.

I support gay marriage and religious rights and freedoms.

I could go on, but you get the point.

Uh, that sounds more like libertarianism.

Again, lowercase 'l'.

550 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:35:13pm

re: #540 RadicalModerate

Exactly when will this "self-correction" take place? They have been increasing, not decreasing in influence since the 1980s. That's thirty years. More than one generation - and they are solidifying their base, not eroding.

The Dems self corrected in the 70's/80's and did a good job.

Political necessity and all that.

551 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:35:58pm

These Days

Youtube Video

Namaste, y'all
552 laZardo  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:36:00pm

re: #546 researchok

That would also put you way out the left on the American political spectrum of things. Center-right on the rest of the developed world's though.

553 darthstar  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:36:24pm

re: #544 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Wait, you're da ho?

/Been waiting hours to use that one.

No, no, not Idaho, I'm da fuckin' whore...at least I was until I got remarried.

554 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:36:55pm

re: #549 laZardo

Uh, that sounds more like libertarianism.

Again, lowercase 'l'.

Nope. no way.

I like government. I do not resent it.

That said, I also like a more limited government as opposed to an out of control gorilla in the room.

555 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:37:42pm

re: #533 researchok

The good news is when the GOP does self correct- and they will- th eevangelicals will be bacl on TV Sunday mornings, collecting money for all kids of projects.

Which is exactly where they belong.

Anywhere but Washington.

Probably correct, but I believe it will be a very loooong time before we see that self-correction.

556 laZardo  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:37:55pm

re: #554 researchok

Nope. no way.

I like government. I do not resent it.

That said, I also like a more limited government as opposed to an out of control gorilla in the room.

Sensibly, reasonably libertarian then. And on issues like gay marriage and abortion, still very "left" on the American political spectrum.

557 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:38:03pm

re: #546 researchok

To be clear- supporting the Uganda agenda isn't about social conservatism. It is about opportunism and a new avenue for financial support.

I'm a social conservative. I support abortion rights and want to see it safe, legal and rare.

I support gay marriage and religious rights and freedoms.

I could go on, but you get the point.


Do you vote for the folks who support abortion rights/gay marriage/religious rights and freedoms?

558 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:38:12pm

re: #550 researchok

The Dems self corrected in the 70's/80's and did a good job.

Political necessity and all that.

I disagree strongly there.

The "Southern Strategy" was an all-out attempt by the Republican Party to pull Social Conservatives into their base, by giving de-facto support to the "Dixiecrats" who were upset over the fact that black people got to vote.

559 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:38:41pm

re: #555 reine.de.tout

Probably correct, but I believe it will be a very looong time before we see that self-correction.

I believe that will happen faster than you imagine.

Lots of you and me's will stay home.

Lots

560 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:39:49pm

re: #558 RadicalModerate

I disagree strongly there.

The "Southern Strategy" was an all-out attempt by the Republican Party to pull Social Conservatives into their base, by giving de-facto support to the "Dixiecrats" who were upset over the fact that black people got to vote.

Read the tea leaves however you like.

In the end, the Dems cleaned their own house.

I give them credit for that

561 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:40:03pm

re: #559 researchok

I believe that will happen faster than you imagine.

Lots of you and me's will stay home.

Lots

And lots of "us" will just quietly go out and vote.
Much of this is very offensive, and, many of us aren't vocal, but we VOTE.

562 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:40:54pm

re: #557 BongCrodny

Do you vote for the folks who support abortion rights/gay marriage/religious rights and freedoms?

As best I can.

Not all conservatives/GOP types have been sucked into the abyss.

563 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:40:57pm

re: #561 Floral Giraffe

And lots of "us" will just quietly go out and vote.
Much of this is very offensive, and, many of us aren't vocal, but we VOTE.

Beware the silent wrath of the Uterati.

564 iossarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:41:06pm

What passes for unusual in today's crazy world?

"Hi Honey, I'm home!"

"Nice day at the office, dear?"

"Yes, just a couple of women being forced to watch their already-deceased, deformed offspring being expelled from their vaginas today."

"Oh, did you see the news? The top rate of tax just went down to 19.3%."

"Well, you know, honey, that only affects the folks that make about 1,000 times more than we do. Still, it's good to know our elected officials are looking out for us."

"I agree honey, I always do! Anyway - meatloaf for dinner!"

565 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:41:31pm

re: #530 BongCrodny

Oooo.

>NUKE HOUSE, MAILBOX AND FIELD.

I'm sorry, I don't understand the word "nuke".
>_

566 laZardo  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:41:40pm

re: #564 iossarian

Hey, I actually like meatloaf.

/the food, not the singer.

// ;D

567 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:41:49pm

re: #563 goddamnedfrank

Beware the silent wrath of the Uterati.

Yes, we have wrath in our uteruses!

568 laZardo  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:41:59pm

re: #565 negativ

I'm sorry, I don't understand the word "nuke".
>_

The only correct option is not to play.

569 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:42:00pm

re: #561 Floral Giraffe

And lots of "us" will just quietly go out and vote.
Much of this is very offensive, and, many of us aren't vocal, but we VOTE.

And if that what it takes, so be it.

The GOP has authored their destiny. They have no one to blame but themselves.

570 iossarian  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:43:24pm

OK, I said drive-by originally and I should have meant it.

Fight on.

571 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:45:19pm

re: #562 researchok

As best I can.

Not all conservatives/GOP types have been sucked into the abyss.


I suspect, however, we disagree on the percentage. :-)

572 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:45:24pm

re: #559 researchok

I believe that will happen faster than you imagine.

Lots of you and me's will stay home.

Lots

hehe.
I was thinking about that today, and wondering what the Roi and I will do. Vote in such a way we cancel each other out? Not vote at all? Vote Dem?

We vote anywhichway at the local level; but at the national level, we've tended to vote Rep. Except last Presidential election, the Roi didn't want to vote for anybody.

573 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:45:50pm

re: #567 Floral Giraffe

Yes, we have wrath in our uteruses!

Remember, I'm the guy with a good attitude towards menstruation, please spare my life.

Youtube Video
574 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:45:51pm

re: #564 iossarian

Funny. Next time, build your strawmen out in a cornfield where they can at least keep the crows away.

575 Kid A  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:46:29pm

If this shit can happen in Idaho, there's no doubt in my mind that Goodhair will try and institute it here in Texas. I mean, after forcing women to look at sonograms now, why not?

576 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:47:50pm

I am appalled at the blatant pandering by the current iteration of GOP to the anti science crowd, AGW deniers, anti abortion lunatics (and again, I'd really like to see fewer abortions), religious homophobes (that really outrages me) and knee jerk opposition to any kind of bipartisan cooperation.

This latest iteration of the GOP talks a good game, but they are doing nothing to leave a better America to our kids.

That is outrageous.

577 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:48:23pm

re: #572 reine.de.tout

hehe.
I was thinking about that today, and wondering what the Roi and I will do. Vote in such a way we cancel each other out? Not vote at all? Vote Dem?

We vote anywhichway at the local level; but at the national level, we've tended to vote Rep. Except last Presidential election, the Roi didn't want to vote for anybody.

I can't blame HRH.

At all.

578 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:48:37pm

re: #565 negativ

I'm sorry, I don't understand the word "nuke".
>_


I don't know if I ever had as much fun playing another computer game as I did the original Zork.

Y'know what the problem with this country is? We're stuck in a maze of twisty little passages and we can't get out.

579 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:50:03pm

re: #572 reine.de.tout

hehe.
I was thinking about that today, and wondering what the Roi and I will do. Vote in such a way we cancel each other out? Not vote at all? Vote Dem?

We vote anywhichway at the local level; but at the national level, we've tended to vote Rep. Except last Presidential election, the Roi didn't want to vote for anybody.

I suppose you have to wait to see who emerges victorious from the scuffle for the RNC nomination first.

580 abolitionist  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:50:10pm

Most recent comment on the local news story --four hours ago:

I am the women who reported this all.I have absolutely no sympathy [snip]

Woman Charged With Unlawful Abortion

581 researchok  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:50:56pm

The difference between today's GOP and the party of Reagan is clear.

When Ronald Reagan said. 'Our best days are ahead of us', you know he meant it even if you didn't like his politics.

Now when those words are repeated by the GOP, they are empty and hollow.

582 Kid A  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:51:42pm

Once again, if you want the GOP to care about you, remain a fetus because after that, you are on your own.

583 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:52:48pm

re: #580 abolitionist

Most recent comment on the local news story --four hours ago:

I am the women who reported this all.I have absolutely no sympathy [snip]

Woman Charged With Unlawful Abortion


Nice. They even printed her address and everything.

584 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:53:14pm

re: #580 abolitionist

time for some facebook fun

585 Kid A  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:53:21pm

re: #581 researchok

And the Real Americans "forget" that Reagan legalized abortion as California governor. Reagan conservatives!
//

586 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:54:19pm

re: #583 BongCrodny

Nice. They even printed her address and everything.

That's just wrong. It's an invitation to harrass her, and the posers are sure to do so.

587 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:55:53pm

re: #573 goddamnedfrank

OK, that's 2 minutes of my life, I won;t get back!
LOL!

588 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:57:03pm

re: #584 SpaceJesus

time for some facebook fun

Naughty SJ! GO!

589 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 9:57:44pm

re: #588 Floral Giraffe

I can't add her as a friend :(

590 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 10:01:45pm

re: #578 BongCrodny

I don't know if I ever had as much fun playing another computer game as I did the original Zork.

Y'know what the problem with this country is? We're stuck in a maze of twisty little passages and we can't get out.

I had Zork I, II, and III; The Witness; Planetfall; Deadline; Suspended; and Infidel.

Pure genius, each one. And the packaging...

591 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 10:13:00pm

I had the misfortune of accidentally clicking on one of the Stalkers' websites tonight when reading the latest on the fallout of "Twittergate", as the media is now calling the fiasco involving Rep. Weiner's social media accounts - in this case the one whose name is derived from the state north of Missouri.

He posted what would have to be the most rambling wall-of-text that I have seen outside of the Unabomber manifestos... and somehow Charles is somehow involved in a grand conspiracy to sully the good name of Andrew Brietbart. It literally gave me a headache trying to read it.

592 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 10:21:48pm

re: #591 RadicalModerate

Meh, they're stalkers.
AKA loosers.
Don't fret about them.

593 BongCrodny  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 10:30:40pm

re: #590 negativ

I had Zork I, II, and III; The Witness; Planetfall; Deadline; Suspended; and Infidel.

Pure genius, each one. And the packaging...


I had the Zorks, plus Beyond Zork and Zork Zero, as well as Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Hollywood Hijinx and Leather Goddesses of Phobos, as well as a few others. My favorites were Trinity and The Lurking Horror.

Up until about four or five years ago, I still had my "Don't Panic" button from the Hitchhiker game.

594 Desert Fox  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 10:53:46pm

re: #578 BongCrodny

I don't know if I ever had as much fun playing another computer game as I did the original Zork.

Y'know what the problem with this country is? We're stuck in a maze of twisty little passages and we can't get out.

The "maze of twisty passages" phrase actually originated in the game Colossal Cave Adventure in the mid-70's. It's not very well known, since that was the pre-PC age. Zork, a great game in its own right, contains several homages to CCA.

595 Caoimhe  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 11:34:30pm

re: #528 b_sharp

Still not realistic, and I think you know what his answer would be. Only an idiot would prioritize small government over such a morally execrable position.

And yet he priorities "small government" over the morally execrable position we're discussing here.

This isn't just hypothetical, this is women dying and/or their lives being ruined, as the government takes away their reproductive rights and bodily autonomy.

If THAT can be overlooked, than what other horrors can be ignored for "smaller government"?

596 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 11:37:41pm

re: #533 researchok

The good news is when the GOP does self correct- and they will- th eevangelicals will be bacl on TV Sunday mornings, collecting money for all kids of projects.

Which is exactly where they belong.

Anywhere but Washington.

Hopefully, sooner rather than later.

597 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 11:42:54pm

re: #558 RadicalModerate

I disagree strongly there.

The "Southern Strategy" was an all-out attempt by the Republican Party to pull Social Conservatives into their base, by giving de-facto support to the "Dixiecrats" who were upset over the fact that black people got to vote.

And the end to their antimiscegenation laws 2 years later. And Roe v Wade, 6 years after that.

I love these "small government"/nullification cons who think state and local governments get to harass private marriages, down to what races can/can't marry.

598 Caoimhe  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 11:45:54pm

More emerging details on what that disgusting woman did by keeping a dead baby around the house:

...she brought the deceased infant home from the hospital and introduced the dead child to her living children as "your brother Gabriel" and slept with the body overnight before returning it to the hospital.


Oh, wait, no, that was Rick and Karen Santorum who did that.

599 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jun 2, 2011 11:46:02pm

re: #585 Kid A

And the Real Americans "forget" that Reagan legalized abortion as California governor. Reagan conservatives!
//

And was also president of a union, eeeek.

600 RexMundi  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 2:10:32am

This shirt is so appropriate to this thread...

601 BongCrodny  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 4:08:17am

re: #594 Desert Fox

The "maze of twisty passages" phrase actually originated in the game Colossal Cave Adventure in the mid-70's. It's not very well known, since that was the pre-PC age. Zork, a great game in its own right, contains several homages to CCA.


Yeah. I actually researched my post and found that out, but I figured most people would have known it (if at all) from Zork.

I slogged through Colossal Cave back in the day as well. IIRC, I remember having one hell of a time figuring out that cheerful little singing bird.

602 funky chicken  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 5:20:03am

re: #185 imp_62

Biology and ecology will take care of this. As populations increase, infertility rates do, as well. All populations eventually regress towards the mean. It's nature's way of protecting itself rom us.

Um, I dunno about that. The fertility rate in Haiti and Yemen is still pretty high, and those two places have likely already surpassed the population that their habitats can support. It's the dark side of international food aid--population explosions in places that can least sustain them.

603 funky chicken  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 5:25:43am

re: #598 Caoimhe

More emerging details on what that disgusting woman did by keeping a dead baby around the house:


Oh, wait, no, that was Rick and Karen Santorum who did that.

This woman is

crazier

than Rick and Karen Santorum--she caused her loss of the pregnancy and she still kept the remains? How long did she keep the remains? The Santorums just hauled the little corpse around for a day, right?

I'm 100% pro-choice, but this woman appears to have problems well beyond having endured an unplanned pregnancy. She needs psychological help, and hopefully a good judge will see that.

604 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 8:04:20am

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

If she committed fraud to obtain the drugs, then she must be jailed for it. Such an action cannot be tolerated.

Like Rush Limpballs? How long did he spend in jail? Or is this punishment only meted out to those that can't afford to pay to make it go away?

605 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 8:15:43am

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

For her? None. It's intended to send a message: Obtain drugs by fraud and you go to jail, period. Letting her get away with fraud is a "broken window", if you understand my meaning.

President has already been set. (see Rush Limbaugh maid and her shopping spree for him)

606 funky chicken  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 8:56:31am

re: #605 RayFerd

President has already been set. (see Rush Limbaugh maid and her shopping spree for him)

So, two wrongs make a right. Again?

Self-medicating is always a bad idea, and using RU-486 in the second trimester with zero medical supervision? Quasi-suicidal.

This woman needs more than legal help.

607 tomg51spence  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 9:07:23am

I vote republican more often than not.

I understand that this entire chain of events is my fault?
Really?

608 webevintage  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 9:36:45am

re: #607 tomg51spence

I vote republican more often than not.

I understand that this entire chain of events is my fault?
Really?

yes.
stop voting republican.

609 wrenchwench  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 10:14:21am

re: #216 kingkenrod

Self-administered abortions should be illegal. Trying to abort a 5 month fetus on your own is crazy and is going to wind up getting women killed or sterilized. It could also damage (not kill) a fetus and result in a live birth of a gravely injured child. There's no way the government can look the other way, regardless of the circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised if every single state has a law against this. Of course this whole situation is a great argument in support of public subsidies for abortions. Desperate people do desperate things.

How about this?

Menstrual extraction was developed as a technique to help women gain and maintain control over their menstrual cycles and reproductive lives.[1][2][3][4][5] It can be used as a method of very early termination of pregnancy (abortion) and/or as a simple way to remove menstrual blood.

[...]

610 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 10:38:35am

re: #607 tomg51spence

I vote republican more often than not.

I understand that this entire chain of events is my fault?
Really?

Since the war on women's rights is exclusively the doing of the Republican Party, and every single GOP politician is involved in it, well ... you do the math.

This wouldn't be happening if people didn't vote them into office.

611 tomg51spence  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 11:10:05am

I just figured that my voting record would be about 6th in line after 1) choosing intercourse, 2) being unprotected, 3) not taking anything the next day, 4) not checking for 3 months afterwards, 5) not taking action in those three months, and then deciding not to have the baby in the manner she chose. Democrats provided (3) and (5) as options beforehand. I do not think arresting her on a drug purchase charge is any sort of an answer. I just don't think this case should be viewed as a failure of or the fault of a generic republican.

612 skullkrusher  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 2:22:37pm

re: #3 Rightwingconspirator

I don't think this is necessarily in violation of Roe v Wade. Since the focus there is on the tenuous definition of viability, depending on how far along she actually was, she could have been denied a conventional abortion within the bounds of the ruling methinks.

613 Etaoin Shrdlu  Fri, Jun 3, 2011 4:36:43pm

re: #601 BongCrodny

Coincidentally, someone has just packaged up a convenient distribution of the original Adventure in its original environment.

—

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

It's not the abortion I'm concerned with, it's the fraud.

Who was defrauded?


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