Pamela Geller, Genocide Denier

To Geller, anyone who murders Muslims is an ally
Wingnuts • Views: 37,398

“Muslims killed themselves in Yugoslavia” Remember when Muslim-hating demagogue Robert Spencer wrote a totally dishonest piece for the Guardian to run interference for his crony Pamela Geller, claiming (among numerous other lies and evasions) that she doesn’t support murderous war criminals like Slobodan Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic?

Today, Pamela Geller crossed the line into outright genocide denial, claiming that only a “couple of hundred people” were killed in Srebrenica by Serbian commander Ratko Mladic. The truth, of course, is that Mladic oversaw the massacre of thousands of innocent Muslims — including many children — who had sought safety from the genocide being perpetrated by Serbian forces in other parts of Yugoslavia. And that’s just one of his many documented war crimes.

And it gets even worse. Geller also claims that Muslim forces fired on their own people to create international sympathy, and that the well-documented attempted genocide by Serbians was completely fabricated.

Her despicable post supporting the mass murder of Muslims: DISTORTING HISTORY - Atlas Shrugs.

Why aren’t the Bosnian Muslims held to the same standard as the Serb Christians? Why is this fabricated narrative protected so fiercely? The left is spitting bullets every time I post on Bosnia. They are so vested in establishing a militant Islamic state in the heart of Europe. Why?

The American people were fed an endless supply of distortions and deceptions in order to grease Clinton’s war. It began with a lie. How long will these human rights activists and international law clowns ignore the Serbian people and their stories? Refuting the Bosnian Lies.

The international community jumped to manufacture a “genocide” of a couple of hundred people, when real genocides like the millions of Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians by the Muslims are systematically ignored, demied [sic]. Enough. When does the truth get a hearing?

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299 comments
1 Summer Seale  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:02:13pm

You know...

....you'd think that the bitch would learn some day....

2 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:05:16pm

She's being rewarded not to learn, and in fact, to go deeper into denial.

3 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:05:47pm

Unh… she pretty much already affirmed the "couple of hundred" claim by her reposting that disgusting article by Julia Gorin ("Roasting Mladic"):

Whatever proof will be shown of executions by Mladic’s forces of Muslim POWs (and there were a few hundred — though not 8000)

Not going to link to that garbage.

4 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:05:51pm

It's a particularly odious kind of propaganda to minimize or deny genocide. I was taught Eisenhower had the wisdom to deploy photographers to the concentration camps specifically because he knew later some would deny. Short of acting violently this is about as low as it gets.

5 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:05:58pm

Damn those wily, tricksy Muslims, massacring themselves to gain international sympathy! Almost as bad as the Jews for making up the Holocaust!

Yegods, the stupid, it burns.

6 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:06:13pm

re: #1 Summer

You know...

...you'd think that the bitch would learn some day...

Sadly that's just not gonna happen.

7 [deleted]  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:08:06pm
8 HappyWarrior  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:08:22pm

To spin off an old quote, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

9 HappyWarrior  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:12:11pm

Interesting though, I googled Mladic and according to wiki, he's a lifelong communist party member. Gotta love Pam acting like moderates like the president are Commies but her defending bonafide Commies because they share a hatred of Muslims. I just got done reading a book about the Paris Peace Conference of 1919 and it detailed how Yugoslavia was formed. What a mess and tragedy.

10 Summer Seale  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:13:00pm

Pammy Geller is just happy that Mladic slaughtered thousands of Bosnian Muslims in the early '90's because she thinks that they're all Nazis. She thinks that they're all Nazis because a lot of Bosnian Muslims joined up with Hitler during World War II to slaughter Jews (which is true).

However, being happy that they were slaughtered during the Bosnian war is literally like being happy if thousands of Germans living in the 90's were getting slaughtered because their grandparents were Genocidal maniacs.

It's total insanity. Not even Israelis who survived the Holocaust believe in that sort of (time)-warped revenge. Even Israel took in close to a hundred Bosnian Muslim refugees during that war to shelter them.

I guess Pammy thinks that Israel at the time was full of Nazi sympathizers at the highest level of government or something.

11 bratwurst  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:14:54pm

As I posted in the last thread, I have been fortunate enough to spend some time in Bosnia. I have been to more than 30 countries, but Bosnia and Herzegovina is pretty much my favorite. I will never forget my first visit to Sarajevo. I was confused by the plaques with names I saw on walls all over town. Finally, a local told me they represented people killed by snipers during the long siege. I learned this outside of the city brewery (yes, brewing BEER in this supposed hotbed of militant Islam) where there are DOZENS of such plaques. It turns out that people would risk their lives by lining up outside of one of the very few sources of fresh water available to the people of the city between 1992 and 1996.

12 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:15:48pm

re: #9 HappyWarrior

That's a page-worthy catch.

13 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:20:59pm

We need better math classes in America.

I, personally, can count a dead body as one, and the second as two, and so on.

She apparently counts, "One, two, many, lots...okay, that's, um, one hundred."

(Much apologies to Sergeant Detritus.)

14 HappyWarrior  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:21:09pm

re: #10 Summer

Pammy Geller is just happy that Mladic slaughtered thousands of Bosnian Muslims in the early '90's because she thinks that they're all Nazis. She thinks that they're all Nazis because a lot of Bosnian Muslims joined up with Hitler during World War II to slaughter Jews (which is true).

However, being happy that they were slaughtered during the Bosnian war is literally like being happy if thousands of Germans living in the 90's were getting slaughtered because their grandparents were Genocidal maniacs.

It's total insanity. Not even Israelis who survived the Holocaust believe in that sort of (time)-warped revenge. Even Israel took in close to a hundred Bosnian Muslim refugees during that war to shelter them.

I guess Pammy thinks that Israel at the time was full of Nazi sympathizers at the highest level of government or something.

Well she totally neglects to mention that there were Serbians who collaborated with the Nazis during WWII too. Being of Slovene extraction, I know all too well that all the ethnic groups in the region had their fair share of collabartors and on the positive flip side, resistance.

15 jaunte  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:21:14pm

Wikipedia on the Dutch Battalion's experience with Mladic:

When VRS artillery squashed the resistance of the 28ª Mountain Infantry Division, ARBiH, defending the town, Lieutenant-Colonel (Lt. Col., "Overste") Karremans made an urgent request for air support from the United Nations for two Dutch F-16s to attack heavy armour of the VRS. The attack never took place. It had to be cancelled when Serbian forces threatened the execution of 50 members of Dutchbat III seized as hostages. Mladić's column then took the town July 11, 1995, causing the displacement of many of the city's inhabitants. About 15,000 displaced persons undertook the flight towards Tuzla on foot, but the majority looked for protection from the UN blue helmets in Potocari. During the flight of the column towards Tuzla, Dutch soldier Raviv van Rensen was attacked by the Bosnian Serbs and died.

Mladić met with Lt. Col. Karremans (video of the meeting is available on Youtube), and by serious threats made sure DUTCHBAT did not take part in the outcome. Under pretext of evacuating the Bosniak population to a sheltered city, most of the women and children were transferred bus to a zone under Bosnian-Serb control, assuring that the men would be transferred later. But the Bosnian Serbs perpetrated a genocide on the males, the now well-known massacre of Srebrenica, in which approximately 8,000 Bosniak men of different ages were murdered by the military and paramilitary Bosnian-Serbian forces.[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

16 BongCrodny  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:22:38pm

She's muts.

17 HappyWarrior  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:22:49pm

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

That's a page-worthy catch.

It's interesting isn't it? Pam has been calling this president a Marxist for years now but her war criminal defenders were and are the genuine issue. Milosevic as I recall was a member too.

18 Turkey Jihad  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:24:48pm

Atlas Shrieks.Image: Picture_60.png

19 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:24:49pm

re: #5 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Damn those wily, tricksy Muslims, massacring themselves to gain international sympathy! Almost as bad as the Jews for making up the Holocaust!

Yegods, the stupid, it burns.

You know, you say this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the shrieking harpy actually did wind up as a Holocaust denier at some point. Because really, once you're riding the crazy train, why bother getting off?

20 albusteve  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:25:18pm

Geller has become a demented freak that should be chained to a wall...her reckless fabrications ought to be criminal

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:26:21pm

re: #7 MikeySDCA

Begging everyone's pardon, but Mladic is not a Serbian, which is a citizen of Serbia of Serb ethnicity. He is a Serb, which is an ethnic category independent of citizenship. The Balkans are so confusing that a little pedantry seems a small price to pay for a measure of clarity.

Thanks. (And yes, Balkans, confusing, byword.)

22 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:26:29pm

re: #14 HappyWarrior

Well she totally neglects to mention that there were Serbians who collaborated with the Nazis during WWII too. Being of Slovene extraction, I know all too well that all the ethnic groups in the region had their fair share of collabartors and on the positive flip side, resistance.

Errr.... it's also crucial to differentiate, though. There was Nedić's Serbia. There was the Independent State of Croatia. And going a little further in Southeast Europe, there was the First Slovak Republic.

23 MarshallOnellion  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:26:35pm

I do not understand what Ms. Geller believes she is accomplishing. Perhaps, as others have suggested, she is being paid for this bile. If not money, though, the only people she will "convince" are others who are delusional or consumed with hatred (or fear). No one who knows the first thing of what happened during the Balkan wars would treat her seriously.

24 [deleted]  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:27:39pm
25 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:29:49pm

re: #19 thedopefishlives

Yegods, the stupid, it burns.

You know, you say this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the shrieking harpy actually did wind up as a Holocaust denier at some point. Because really, once you're riding the crazy train, why bother getting off?

Holocaust denial wouldn't fit right now, mostly because she's had her head so far up Bibi's ass in recent weeks, if only to maintain the "holier than thou" approach to Obama and the dreaded "'67 borders!"

26 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:31:07pm

re: #10 Summer

Pammy Geller is just happy that Mladic slaughtered thousands of Bosnian Muslims in the early '90's because she thinks that they're all Nazis. She thinks that they're all Nazis because a lot of Bosnian Muslims joined up with Hitler during World War II to slaughter Jews (which is true).

However, being happy that they were slaughtered during the Bosnian war is literally like being happy if thousands of Germans living in the 90's were getting slaughtered because their grandparents were Genocidal maniacs.

It's total insanity. Not even Israelis who survived the Holocaust believe in that sort of (time)-warped revenge. Even Israel took in close to a hundred Bosnian Muslim refugees during that war to shelter them.

I guess Pammy thinks that Israel at the time was full of Nazi sympathizers at the highest level of government or something.

Also, the history of the area is far more confusing than that. Many Christian ethnic groups also allied with the Nazis, and many Bosnian (and Albanian) Muslims fought against them. Some risked their lives to protect Jews.

But Pam does not do complicated. One Muslim allied with the Nazis, so they all deserve to die. The Croatians, though, they just did it because they were scared of the Muslims. The excuses are endless. (Pam and friends also experiment with "but they were trying to start a jihadist state, and no one else could SEE that!") But there is no excuse to be made for the war crimes of the Balkans in the 90s. Try 'em all, without reference to race, color, creed or national origin (creed especially), and, if I were in charge, hang those responsible.

27 [deleted]  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:32:04pm
28 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:32:41pm

re: #25 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Holocaust denial wouldn't fit right now, mostly because she's had her head so far up Bibi's ass in recent weeks, if only to maintain the "holier than thou" approach to Obama and the dreaded "'67 borders!"

It's not like anything involving Pam Geller and her crowd makes sense anyway.

29 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:33:15pm

re: #28 thedopefishlives

It's not like anything involving Pam Geller and her crowd makes sense anyway.

Touche.

30 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:33:50pm

re: #11 bratwurst

As I posted in the last thread, I have been fortunate enough to spend some time in Bosnia. I have been to more than 30 countries, but Bosnia and Herzegovina is pretty much my favorite. I will never forget my first visit to Sarajevo. I was confused by the plaques with names I saw on walls all over town. Finally, a local told me they represented people killed by snipers during the long siege. I learned this outside of the city brewery (yes, brewing BEER in this supposed hotbed of militant Islam) where there are DOZENS of such plaques. It turns out that people would risk their lives by lining up outside of one of the very few sources of fresh water available to the people of the city between 1992 and 1996.

The idea that Bosnians are militant Muslims seems pretty weird to me. I've MET Bosnians.

31 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:34:30pm

re: #4 Rightwingconspirator

I was taught Eisenhower had the wisdom to deploy photographers to the concentration camps specifically because he knew later some would deny.

Smart man.

32 HappyWarrior  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:35:01pm

re: #22 000G

Errr... it's also crucial to differentiate, though. There was Nedić's Serbia. There was the Independent State of Croatia. And going a little further in Southeast Europe, there was the First Slovak Republic.

Yep, also true. re: #26 SanFranciscoZionist

Also, the history of the area is far more confusing than that. Many Christian ethnic groups also allied with the Nazis, and many Bosnian (and Albanian) Muslims fought against them. Some risked their lives to protect Jews.

But Pam does not do complicated. One Muslim allied with the Nazis, so they all deserve to die. The Croatians, though, they just did it because they were scared of the Muslims. The excuses are endless. (Pam and friends also experiment with "but they were trying to start a jihadist state, and no one else could SEE that!") But there is no excuse to be made for the war crimes of the Balkans in the 90s. Try 'em all, without reference to race, color, creed or national origin (creed especially), and, if I were in charge, hang those responsible.

Heck Pavelic and the Utasse were the definition of Christian Fascism. I've heard read about how the campus they had for the Serbs and Jews were just as terrible as the concentration camps that the Germans had and more disturbingly was that Catholic priests were active participants in the murders. I believe Franco's Spain was Pavelic's spot of refuge until he died. That's an as good reason as any why Franco shouldn't be defended but that's another story of course.

33 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:35:03pm

re: #14 HappyWarrior

Well she totally neglects to mention that there were Serbians who collaborated with the Nazis during WWII too. Being of Slovene extraction, I know all too well that all the ethnic groups in the region had their fair share of collabartors and on the positive flip side, resistance.

It's easier to keep score if you assume all the Muslims are Nazis, and all the Christians are good guys. How the hell any Jew comes to that conclusion about the war years is beyond me.

34 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:35:18pm

re: #27 MikeySDCA

And let's not forget the Vlasov Army.

If you're talking Russian collaboration, I think more noteworthy is the Republic Lokot.

35 nines09  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:36:00pm

Pam and her buddies...Lest we forget.

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:37:02pm

re: #17 HappyWarrior

It's interesting isn't it? Pam has been calling this president a Marxist for years now but her war criminal defenders were and are the genuine issue. Milosevic as I recall was a member too.

Well, but, Yugoslavia had been a communist nation until it exploded into pieces. I assume anyone with military or political background would have been a party member.

Of course, I'm saying this in the cold light of day, and haven't had any gin--the fact that Pam will defend them is still funny. Given Pam.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:39:22pm

re: #19 thedopefishlives

Yegods, the stupid, it burns.

You know, you say this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the shrieking harpy actually did wind up as a Holocaust denier at some point. Because really, once you're riding the crazy train, why bother getting off?

We did have one guy on here some months ago who was floating what I think may be an increasing meme for the crazyhaternuts (they're crazier than wingnuts and moonbats put together), which is that the Nazis LEARNED anti-Semitism from the Arabs, rather than just forming strategic alliances with some Arab leaders.

Europe's sins are being forgiven and erased from memory, the better to ally them as fellow victims in the great fight against Islam.

Fuck that, BTW.

38 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:40:13pm

re: #22 000G

Errr... it's also crucial to differentiate, though. There was Nedić's Serbia. There was the Independent State of Croatia. And going a little further in Southeast Europe, there was the First Slovak Republic.

You're asking Pam to differentiate? There's a whole bunch of people! Some of them are Muslims! The Muslim ones are bad!

39 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:40:46pm

re: #23 MarshallOnellion

I do not understand what Ms. Geller believes she is accomplishing. Perhaps, as others have suggested, she is being paid for this bile. If not money, though, the only people she will "convince" are others who are delusional or consumed with hatred (or fear). No one who knows the first thing of what happened during the Balkan wars would treat her seriously.

The poison is spreading, though, just as Holocaust denial did and does.

40 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:42:00pm

Speaking of Russians… it's strange how from an ethnic propaganda angle Nazis wanted to see in their Soviet enemies only Russians (so as to be able to collaborate with the ethnic minorities at the periphery of the Soviet Union), and the Soviets wanted to see in themselves not so much Russians but Soviet citizens ("Great Patriotic War").

41 Stanghazi  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:42:18pm

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

You know, you say this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the shrieking harpy actually did wind up as a Holocaust denier at some point. Because really, once you're riding the crazy train, why bother getting off?

We did have one guy on here some months ago who was floating what I think may be an increasing meme for the crazyhaternuts (they're crazier than wingnuts and moonbats put together), which is that the Nazis LEARNED anti-Semitism from the Arabs, rather than just forming strategic alliances with some Arab leaders.

Europe's sins are being forgiven and erased from memory, the better to ally them as fellow victims in the great fight against Islam.

Fuck that, BTW.

I bet you lost your shit (quietly) reading his comments.

42 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:42:36pm

I think it's a case of in for a penny, in for 20,000 lbs. It's the same logic that has her defending South African white supremacist Terreblanche. She's bought into the lie that next time around that the Euro tribal nationalists will consider Jews as part of the white race. What she fails to comprehend is that once her "allies" gain power that consideration flies out the Bergen-Belsen window.

43 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:43:08pm

Also check out her "Shot of the Day" thread. It's a letter from an Egyptian claiming Egypt was free and safe under dictatorship. It ends with a slam against democracy in general.....

I totally despise the president fool [Obama], but more I despise a political system that could result in such a poor result.
44 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:44:03pm

re: #41 Stanley Sea

I bet you lost your shit (quietly) reading his comments.

We discussed real history.

We quickly went down the 'but who can really know anything about history' rabbit hole.

45 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:44:23pm

re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist

You're asking Pam to differentiate? There's a whole bunch of people! Some of them are Muslims! The Muslim ones are bad!

No, specifically HappyWarrior because of his statement:

all the ethnic groups in the region had their fair share of collabartors

My point was that, while no ethnic group was absolutely innocent or absolutely guilty, some ethnic groups had a bigger share in guilt than others.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:47:29pm

re: #42 Thanos

I think it's a case of in for a penny, in for 20,000 lbs. It's the same logic that has her defending South African white supremacist Terreblanche. She's bought into the lie that next time around that the Euro tribal nationalists will consider Jews as part of the white race. What she fails to comprehend is that once her "allies" gain power that consideration flies out the Bergen-Belsen window.

The degree of denial involved in being Pam is high.

47 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:50:52pm

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

We did have one guy on here some months ago who was floating what I think may be an increasing meme for the crazyhaternuts (they're crazier than wingnuts and moonbats put together), which is that the Nazis LEARNED anti-Semitism from the Arabs, rather than just forming strategic alliances with some Arab leaders.

Europe's sins are being forgiven and erased from memory, the better to ally them as fellow victims in the great fight against Islam.

Fuck that, BTW.

Great, my bullshit detector just exploded again. Thanks./

48 HappyWarrior  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:51:49pm

re: #45 000G

No, specifically HappyWarrior because of his statement:

My point was that, while no ethnic group was absolutely innocent or absolutely guilty, some ethnic groups had a bigger share in guilt than others.

I didn't mean to imply that all groups had the same share of guilt. The one thing I've found interesting after reading about the Paris Peace Treaty is how the Nazis and Axis Powers attempted to exploit the nationalism and hurt feelings of various groups during the war. I really like to think my own family that was in Europe at the time resisted but I really have no idea obviously.

49 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:52:01pm

The Armenian genocide was ignored? Which would explain why no help was organized in the US or anywhere else, no notables spoke out against it, and why no nations currently recognize it as a genocide.

Right.

(The reason nobody was tried at the time is that first, there wasn't yet an apparatus for that. It was 1915-1917. No UN, league of nations, or international tribunals yet, not really. Second, look at the timing. The world was shortly about to have a lot else to focus on.)

51 EiMitch  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:52:10pm

Warning! This post contains some hateful, racist words.

My intent is solely to make a point about Pamela Geller's breed of insanity.

Ahem.

The following is a production of "Spoofing Geller Made Even Easier" studios:

Spot the Differences!

---

"Why aren’t the Jews held to the same standard as the Aryan Nazis? Why is this fabricated narrative protected so fiercely? The right is spitting bullets every time I post on Germany. They are so vested in establishing a militant Nazi state in the heart of Europe. Why?

The American people were fed an endless supply of distortions and deceptions in order to grease Roosevelt war. It began with a lie. How long will these human rights activists and international law clowns ignore the German people and their stories? Refuting the Zionist Lies.

The international community jumped to manufacture a “genocide” of a couple of hundred people, when real genocides like the millions of Swedes, Scandinavians, and Norwegians by the Jews are systematically ignored, demied [sic]. Enough. When does the truth get a hearing?"

---

Again, the above is intended solely as a satire of Pamela Geller's own hate-speech. I am not antisemitic, nor otherwise promoting antisemitism.

52 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:52:12pm

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm pretty sure (and I think I can back it up) that the Arabs learned from Europe. Not just the Nazis either, but from Europe overall.

53 Turkey Jihad  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:52:53pm

Oh, for the love of God, Drunken Pam. How many vodkas did you have to drink before you posted this? Foreskin Man??!! Really??!! God, turn her off, my fucking eyes...

Your text to link...

54 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:55:21pm

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

Apropos: You know how a lot of dimwits argue that Arabs or Africans cannot be antisemitic because they themselves are Semites, completely ignoring the fact that "antisemitism" has always just meant enmity towards jews, and was specifically created to cloak enmity towards jews in some pseudo-ethnolinguist mumbojumbo? My favorite statement regarding this term, because it is so illustrative of the hypocrisy of its history, was actually made by a Nazi, Member of Parliament Franz Stöhr during a Reichstag speech on June 18th, 1930:

„Furthermore – it may amaze you when I establish the fact – we are not even Antisemites.
(Amusement.)

We are even sympathetic to some Semites, for instance the Arabs who are at the moment busy with removing the intruding Hebrews from Palestine.
(Repeated Amusement.)

We want to extent our best wishes to semitic Arabs, best of luck and full success.“

55 webevintage  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:56:22pm

she is just a horrible, horrible human being....

56 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:57:55pm

re: #53 Kid A

Oh, for the love of God, Drunken Pam. How many vodkas did you have to drink before you posted this? Foreskin Man??!! Really??!! God, turn her off, my fucking eyes...

Your text to link...

Alouette did a page on that here. It is a really horrible anti-semitic "comic book."

57 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:58:34pm

re: #48 HappyWarrior

I didn't mean to imply that all groups had the same share of guilt. The one thing I've found interesting after reading about the Paris Peace Treaty is how the Nazis and Axis Powers attempted to exploit the nationalism and hurt feelings of various groups during the war. I really like to think my own family that was in Europe at the time resisted but I really have no idea obviously.

One of my grandfathers fought on the western front as well as in the east, in the Wehrmacht. He got home rather early, because of a grenade splinter in his ankle. Never got much out of him. He obviously didn't like the east. Going through his notes, there was a really strange story about some guy in their unit who was a bedwetter and one day got taken away. Seems everybody knew where to.

My other grandfather was a member of the Reiter-SS. Which means he probably just got off easy. Never got to know him.

58 po8crg  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:59:24pm

re: #52 ProLifeLiberal

Not completely convinced there, Muhammad was pretty anti-semitic at times, especially in Medina.

OTOH, the Ummayad era was a pretty good one to be a Jew - there's a reason that Ummayad Al-Andalus was Sepharad.

Anti-semitism has ebbed and flowed between the two sides of the Mediterranean over the years and the Jews have migrated back and forth as Christian and Muslim have taken turns to be tolerant and oppressor.

59 Alexzander  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 12:59:32pm

Enough about Geller; shes a waste of oxygen and life.

No one is going to be thinking on their death bed: "Damn I wish I spent more time thinking about and being angry at Geller."

On another subject:

Report from Al-Laz suggesting Saleh may have left Yemen:

Youtube Video
60 Alexzander  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:03:02pm

Another important story here claiming that Syria has shut down the internet to close off the atrocities from the rest of the world:

[Link: www.readwriteweb.com...]

Since March, when the Arab Spring hit Syria, government authorities have killed 1,100 Syrians (40 of them today) and jailed 10,000. Even with that casualty count, they keep coming. So, like the Mubarak regime in Egypt in its most desperate days, and like the Libyan regime a month later, Syria has vainly turned off its Internet, hoping to sever the people's connection to each other and to the world.

61 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:03:47pm

re: #60 Alexzander

Again, I will repeat what I said on a page. Remember what happened to the last government to do that in the area?

62 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:05:50pm

Congrats Pam, you're no better than a Holocaust denier.

63 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:06:11pm

re: #59 Alexzander

Enough about Geller; shes a waste of oxygen and life.

No one is going to be thinking on their death bed: "Damn I wish I spent more time thinking about and being angry at Geller."

I couldn't disagree more. Pamela Geller is becoming more and more influential with the right wing. She appears frequently on Fox News and Fox Business. She writes columns for right wing media and Andrew Breitbart.

It's important to stand up and point out when someone who has real influence is denying genocide.

64 Alexzander  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:06:25pm

re: #61 ProLifeLiberal

Again, I will repeat what I said on a page. Remember what happened to the last government to do that in the area?

Where is the page on the subject? I must have missed it.

65 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:06:26pm

re: #59 Alexzander

Enough about Geller; shes a waste of oxygen and life.

No one is going to be thinking on their death bed: "Damn I wish I spent more time thinking about and being angry at Geller."

I wonder whether anyone ever said to themselves, "Damn I wish I spent more time thinking about and being angry at Geller Hitler." Not meaning to Godwin it, exactly, but just because something is odious does not mean it's a waste of time to discuss it.

66 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:06:39pm

re: #49 EmmmieG

The Armenian genocide was ignored? Which would explain why no help was organized in the US or anywhere else, no notables spoke out against it, and why no nations currently recognize it as a genocide.

Right.

(The reason nobody was tried at the time is that first, there wasn't yet an apparatus for that. It was 1915-1917. No UN, league of nations, or international tribunals yet, not really. Second, look at the timing. The world was shortly about to have a lot else to focus on.)

Besides all that it wasn't just one genocide, it was multiple, and several different nationalistic tribes participated, not just the Turks as the current mythos would have you believe.

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:07:18pm

Sort of OT, but a very devout lady I went to high school with just posted to Facebook: It is mind boggling how many people claiming to be Christian are really just fanatical nutbags.

68 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:07:52pm

re: #54 000G

The speech in question in its German original, just for reference: [Link: www.reichstagsprotokolle.de...]

69 Alexzander  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:10:21pm

re: #63 Charles

I agree that sometimes its important to stand up and clarify how wrong someone is in their understanding of a subject, especially when it is something as serious as genocide. This is clearly one of those times.

At the same time, I think sometimes these people live off the controversy. Sometimes the best way to undermine these fools is to ignore them. Think Sarah Palin or Ron Paul.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:11:37pm

re: #49 EmmmieG

The Armenian genocide was ignored? Which would explain why no help was organized in the US or anywhere else, no notables spoke out against it, and why no nations currently recognize it as a genocide.

Right.

(The reason nobody was tried at the time is that first, there wasn't yet an apparatus for that. It was 1915-1917. No UN, league of nations, or international tribunals yet, not really. Second, look at the timing. The world was shortly about to have a lot else to focus on.)

The Armenian genocide was, to a large extent, ignored, and it's still a bit of a political bowling ball. But Pam doesn't give a shit about the Armenians, except inasmuch as they were killed by Turks, ie Muslims, and therefore fit into her version of reality.

Also, I doubt she has the slightest idea what happened.

71 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:11:53pm

america needs tougher hate speech laws

72 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:12:22pm

Meanwhile in Germany
Why are so many Germans participating in Civil War reenactments—and siding with the South?
It's easy to guess why but it's still an interesting article.

73 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:12:39pm

re: #69 Alexzander

I agree that sometimes its important to stand up and clarify how wrong someone is in their understanding of a subject, especially when it is something as serious as genocide. This is clearly one of those times.

At the same time, I think sometimes these people live off the controversy. Sometimes the best way to undermine these fools is to ignore them. Think Sarah Palin or Ron Paul.

Look how well that's worked out. Ron Paul is a national legislator whose influence is increasing, and Palin is all over the media.

74 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:13:00pm

re: #71 SpaceJesus

america needs tougher hate speech laws

Boooo!

75 Alexzander  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:13:04pm

re: #71 SpaceJesus

america needs tougher hate speech laws

I actually prefer the US's take on the matter to Canada's but I agree its a complicated subject.

76 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:15:34pm

re: #71 SpaceJesus

america needs tougher hate speech laws

No, just more education and more courage, knowledge and strong stomaches to debate and communicate truths.

77 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:16:20pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout


germans are crazy about 19th century america, especially cowboys and indians type stuff. this should surprise me more than it does.

78 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:16:55pm

re: #75 Alexzander


i'm thinking more like germany. in germany, if you deny the holocaust you are literally committing a criminal act.

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:17:04pm

re: #52 ProLifeLiberal

I'm pretty sure (and I think I can back it up) that the Arabs learned from Europe. Not just the Nazis either, but from Europe overall.

I would argue against that. There is a long history of maltreatment of Jews in the Arab world. Different than Europe's, but decidedly there. But I would also argue that to the extent that there was sharing going on during the war years, it was decidedly moving East rather than West.

(Once again, I recommend to everyone a French movie called "Wedding Song", set in Tunis during the forties. It focuses on the friendship between two girls, one Muslim and one Jewish, growing up in the same building, and it's really, really good.)

80 Alexzander  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:17:18pm

re: #78 SpaceJesus

i'm thinking more like germany. in germany, if you deny the holocaust you are literally committing a criminal act.

I believe that is also the case in Canada.

81 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:17:24pm

re: #69 Alexzander

Sometimes the best way to undermine these fools is to ignore them. Think Sarah Palin or Ron Paul.

I don't think ignoring people like this has ever worked. Sarah Palin is more popular with the right than ever, and Ron Paul's influence in the GOP is soaring.

82 Spocomptonite  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:17:29pm

re: #63 Charles

I couldn't disagree more. Pamela Geller is becoming more and more influential with the right wing. She appears frequently on Fox News and Fox Business. She writes columns for right wing media and Andrew Breitbart.

It's important to stand up and point out when someone who has real influence is denying genocide.

I'd go a step further and say that such denial of well-documented facts deserves to be pointed out as such every time it happens, regardless of who is saying it. Apathy is so easily misinterpreted as approval, both by the person spewing blatantly wrong drivel and the spectators watching/reading it. I don't give them the delusional satisfaction of assuming silence means approval.

83 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:17:51pm

re: #77 SpaceJesus

germans are crazy about 19th century america, especially cowboys and indians type stuff. this should surprise me more than it does.

It actually raises the same issue with hate speech laws and censorship you mentioned earlier. Hate speech laws don't change anything, they just drive the problem underground.

84 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:18:01pm

re: #53 Kid A

Oh, for the love of God, Drunken Pam. How many vodkas did you have to drink before you posted this? Foreskin Man??!! Really??!! God, turn her off, my fucking eyes...

Your text to link...

I must say, this is one time when what Pam has discovered is actually as gross as Pam thinks it is.

85 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:19:14pm

re: #78 SpaceJesus

i'm thinking more like germany. in germany, if you deny the holocaust you are literally committing a criminal act.

People like geert Wilders want to extend the ban on Mien Kampf to include the Quran.

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:19:24pm

re: #57 000G

One of my grandfathers fought on the western front as well as in the east, in the Wehrmacht. He got home rather early, because of a grenade splinter in his ankle. Never got much out of him. He obviously didn't like the east. Going through his notes, there was a really strange story about some guy in their unit who was a bedwetter and one day got taken away. Seems everybody knew where to.

My other grandfather was a member of the Reiter-SS. Which means he probably just got off easy. Never got to know him.

I understand shooting deserters, but bedwetters?

87 William of Orange  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:19:41pm

Seems Todd and Sarah Palin are living up to their conservative family values... Fresh divorce rumors.

Just like in 2009....

...and in 2010...

...and this year....


That woman will do just about anything to get in the news....

88 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:19:45pm

re: #80 Alexzander

ah, i thought you were just censored or something up there. jail time?

89 funky chicken  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:20:39pm

To be fair to Ms. Atlas, Mladic likely didn't kill anybody, at least with his own hands or weapon.

/is this necessary?

90 nines09  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:21:10pm

re: #69 Alexzander

Wrong. You have to call it out and drag it out into the light. This (her versions) is what will be spoken by some who wish to gain office and influence over laws and peoples in this nation. Look. Sarah Ignore what? Influence?

91 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:21:22pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout


will never happen

92 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:22:35pm

In case there's any doubt left that Palin is using her PAC to dupe her supporters out of money...
Piper Palin: 'Thanks for ruining our vacation'

Sarah Palin’s daughter Piper isn't thrilled with all of the media attention that her mom’s bus tour is attracting.

Upset with a Time magazine photographer snapping pictures, the 10-year-old reportedly said: “Thanks for ruining our vacation."

93 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:23:56pm

re: #91 SpaceJesus

will never happen

Without Constitutionally protected free speech there is nothing to prevent it if that's what the majority wants.

94 William of Orange  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:24:40pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

In case there's any doubt left that Palin is using her PAC to dupe her supporters out of money...
Piper Palin: 'Thanks for ruining our vacation'

I thought she like "real" New York pizza....

95 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:24:59pm

re: #58 po8crg

Not completely convinced there, Muhammad was pretty anti-semitic at times, especially in Medina.

OTOH, the Ummayad era was a pretty good one to be a Jew - there's a reason that Ummayad Al-Andalus was Sepharad.

Anti-semitism has ebbed and flowed between the two sides of the Mediterranean over the years and the Jews have migrated back and forth as Christian and Muslim have taken turns to be tolerant and oppressor.

Different cultural patterns. Also, of course, different cultures within each larger religious set. It's enormously complicated by political, religious and other internal factors. Unfortunately, everyone, not just Pam, tends to try to 'pick sides' depending on current political factors.

For years you'd hear about how the Muslim world was great to Jews. Then, mysteriously, it switched to, "No, they were even worse than the Christians." History didn't change, we didn't learn anything new--the world we live in now changed.

I would say that 'worse than the Christians' is ridiculous. In general, the good times for Jews in the Muslim world tended, especially post-Crusades, to be better than the good times in the Christian world. The bad times in both tended to involve violent mobs and lack of civil liberties, but the obsessive psychotic behavior at government levels that cropped up periodically in the Christian world were not a feature in the Muslim world. (The Inquisition in Spain and New Spain, for example.)

96 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:25:03pm

re: #83 Killgore Trout

It actually raises the same issue with hate speech laws and censorship you mentioned earlier. Hate speech laws don't change anything, they just drive the problem underground.


i would disagree, with germany as a case in point. i would attribute germany's mainstream pacifism to the fact that extreme right wing rhetoric is not allowed there.

97 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:25:22pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

I understand shooting deserters, but bedwetters?

I understand he wasn't shot, but simply taken to a concentration camp or a forced labor camp. I guess the reasoning was: "He was hurting group morale in the armed forces, so let's just use him as slave labor material, it doesn't matter if the other slaves complain about him".

98 TedStriker  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:26:05pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

In case there's any doubt left that Palin is using her PAC to dupe her supporters out of money...
Piper Palin: 'Thanks for ruining our vacation'

From the mouths of babes...you know Sarah had to have cringed when that was said in the reporter's presence.

99 Alexzander  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:26:09pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

In case there's any doubt left that Palin is using her PAC to dupe her supporters out of money...
Piper Palin: 'Thanks for ruining our vacation'

Its extremely sad.

I agree with the suggestion that Palin has already decided not to run. I believe Fox must have had pretty candid talks with all of their paid possible candidates, hence the quick dropping of Gingrich and Santorum, and the ultimatum given to Huckabee.

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:26:13pm

re: #71 SpaceJesus

america needs tougher hate speech laws

America needs tougher people with history degrees.

101 Spocomptonite  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:26:40pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

In case there's any doubt left that Palin is using her PAC to dupe her supporters out of money...
Piper Palin: 'Thanks for ruining our vacation'

I'd argue Sarah Palin ruined it. She's the one who ties her family in with her job activities, not the media.

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:26:51pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile in Germany
Why are so many Germans participating in Civil War reenactments—and siding with the South?
It's easy to guess why but it's still an interesting article.

Ta-Nehisi Coates picked that up as well. It's an absolutely fascinating discussion, on a number of levels.

103 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:26:57pm

re: #96 SpaceJesus

germany's mainstream pacifism

Have you been paying attention since 1998?

104 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:27:06pm

re: #93 Killgore Trout

you could say that for literally anything. hell, if you got enough people together here in the US you could amend the constitution and take away the entire bill of rights if you wanted.

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:27:32pm

re: #77 SpaceJesus

germans are crazy about 19th century america, especially cowboys and indians type stuff. this should surprise me more than it does.

Several German commenters blamed the thing with the Indians on the work of one Karl May.

106 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:28:08pm

re: #78 SpaceJesus

i'm thinking more like germany. in germany, if you deny the holocaust you are literally committing a criminal act.

But the First gets in the wayyyyyayayyyy...

Germany has their own issues. We can't go there.

107 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:28:15pm

re: #100 SanFranciscoZionist

the crazies can't be fought with ideas because they are so warped, they just need to put away somewhere where they can get help. maybe jail is a bad idea for genocide denialists, maybe mental institutions are a better option.

108 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:29:11pm

re: #89 funky chicken

To be fair to Ms. Atlas, Mladic likely didn't kill anybody, at least with his own hands or weapon.

/is this necessary?

Yes, the tag is probably necessary.

And he probably did. These guys were fucking unreal.

109 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:29:31pm

So if she erroneously believes that muslims slaughtered their own in an elaborate scheme to internationally defame the Serbians, I shudder to think what she thinks about the mass rapes.

Pamela Geller is truly a despicable woman.

110 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:29:39pm

re: #99 Alexzander

Its extremely sad.

I agree with the suggestion that Palin has already decided not to run. I believe Fox must have had pretty candid talks with all of their paid possible candidates, hence the quick dropping of Gingrich and Santorum, and the ultimatum given to Huckabee.

The day you'll know for sure that she's running is when Fox fires her. Otherwise, it's all a show, meant to keep the rubes coming back for more. This bus tour isn't about a potential run, it's about rebuilding the "Palin mystique" after she had to go dark after Giffords was shot. She knows that, the moment she officially steps up and declares she's not running, the money will disappear.

111 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:31:20pm

re: #106 SanFranciscoZionist


we need a narrowly tailored supreme court decision on hate speech that involves genocide.

chief justice spacejesus will handle this

112 Stanghazi  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:32:29pm

re: #98 talon_262

From the mouths of babes...you know Sarah had to have cringed when that was said in the reporter's presence.

She doesn't give a fuck.

113 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:32:44pm

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

Heard that on npr too, and have been desperatly trying to figure it out lol >>

114 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:32:46pm

re: #97 000G

I understand he wasn't shot, but simply taken to a concentration camp or a forced labor camp. I guess the reasoning was: "He was hurting group morale in the armed forces, so let's just use him as slave labor material, it doesn't matter if the other slaves complain about him".

The stuff you never learn in the official scholarly books...

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:33:05pm

re: #98 talon_262

From the mouths of babes...you know Sarah had to have cringed when that was said in the reporter's presence.

Doubt it. She doesn't cringe a lot.

116 Alexzander  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:33:46pm

re: #111 SpaceJesus

we need a narrowly tailored supreme court decision on hate speech that involves genocide.

chief justice spacejesus will handle this

rolls eyes....

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:34:13pm

re: #107 SpaceJesus

the crazies can't be fought with ideas because they are so warped, they just need to put away somewhere where they can get help. maybe jail is a bad idea for genocide denialists, maybe mental institutions are a better option.

You're allowed to be crazy in America.

You're even allowed to be evil in America, within certain behavioral limits.

118 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:34:20pm

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

Several German commenters blamed the thing with the Indians on the work of one Karl May.


my german host family took me to Karl May's house in germany. its practically a shrine.

119 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:35:24pm

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

You're allowed to be crazy in America.

You're even allowed to be evil in America, within certain behavioral limits.


defending genocide goes too far. this geller woman should be incarcerated.

120 Alexzander  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:36:03pm

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

You're allowed to be crazy in America.

You're even allowed to be evil in America, within certain behavioral limits.

Snakes in Suits.

121 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:36:43pm

re: #119 SpaceJesus

defending genocide goes too far. this geller woman should be incarcerated.

The best that can be done to her is to spread her words far and wide. More people need to know what a raving bigot she is.

122 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:37:04pm

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

One of my favorite authors ever, especially his more mystical stuff. Ardistan & Djinnistan is so worth reading (if you can get through it >>)

123 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:37:36pm

re: #96 SpaceJesus

i would disagree, with germany as a case in point. i would attribute germany's mainstream pacifism to the fact that extreme right wing rhetoric is not allowed there.

I would attribute your impression of Germany to their censorship.

Your lack of support for free speech surprises me.

124 Lidane  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:39:52pm

I'm afraid to look at the comments for Geller's idiocy. Are her readers right there alongside her?

It must suck to be filled with the kind of ignorance and hate that she lives with every day. I can't imagine being that consumed by my own anger.

125 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:40:11pm

re: #123 wrenchwench


i dont believe in protection for hate speech, this is not a fringe position at all. most of the developed world is on board with this, actually.

126 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:40:32pm

re: #123 wrenchwench

Anyways, Japan also doesn't have the censorship laws Germany does (and how!), but they've also gotten a shockingly pacifistic populace.

Sometimes if the cost is high enough (and you lose), you can literally get the war beaten out of you.

127 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:40:43pm

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

There's been a big push over the past decade or so to say that the Muslims are the 'historic' enemy of the Jews, and to act as though Christians really weren't that bad to them.

Pisses me off.

128 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:41:05pm

re: #96 SpaceJesus

i would disagree, with germany as a case in point. i would attribute germany's mainstream pacifism to the fact that extreme right wing rhetoric is not allowed there.

I would attribute Germany's mainstream pacifism to the 8th Air Force.

129 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:42:13pm

re: #127 Obdicut


the same people who coined the term "judeo-christian" in the last couple decades are likely descended from the same people who donned white robes not that long ago.

130 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:42:55pm

re: #125 SpaceJesus

i dont believe in protection for hate speech, this is not a fringe position at all. most of the developed world is on board with this, actually.

There are some issues which I do not look to the rest of the developed world to lead on. Free speech the way we have it may be unique (I don't know) but certainly it is precious.

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:44:17pm

re: #113 windsagio

Heard that on npr too, and have been desperatly trying to figure it out lol >>

Some factors that were pointed out:

1. Since the end of WWII, military glory and games pertaining thereto have been very taboo in German society. This is a chance to play at something so far removed from your reality that you can feel OK about it.

2. Germans are deeply interested in nineteenth century American life, especially the frontier and Indian cultures, so this is not a far hop.

3. Germans are no more impervious to the romantic portrayal of the Confederacy than anyone else.

4. Reenactment (including Plains Indians reenactment) has been a thing in Germany for some time. The SCA has a strong presence there.

5. Some suggestion that possibly this is a coded way to play out the glory days of a lost cause, without getting too close to the nerves.

Coates was interested in the fact that they mostly want to play Confederates, seeing as most German-Americans of the day were staunchly anti-slavery, but I doubt that the average German reenactor identifies much with German immigrants to American a hundred and fifty years ago.

There was a lot of amateur psych hour, but frankly, I think it's more psychologically loaded for Americans to want to play Confederates than it is Germans. And we also have a strong pull toward playing Confederates.

In general, Europeans simply do not get the Civil War.

132 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:44:22pm

re: #128 Decatur Deb

I would attribute Germany's mainstream pacifism to the 8th Air Force.


and would you likewise attribute germany's hyper nationalism to the victories of the american expeditionary force in ww1?

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:44:56pm

re: #118 SpaceJesus

my german host family took me to Karl May's house in germany. its practically a shrine.

LOL! I wonder if this guy has been translated into English?

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:45:20pm

re: #119 SpaceJesus

defending genocide goes too far. this geller woman should be incarcerated.

No.

Mocked, yes.

135 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:45:57pm

re: #126 windsagio

Anyways, Japan also doesn't have the censorship laws Germany does (and how!), but they've also gotten a shockingly pacifistic populace.

Sometimes if the cost is high enough (and you lose), you can literally get the war beaten out of you.

For how many generations? We don't know yet. And I'm not picking on the Japanese. War is a human condition.

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:46:09pm

re: #125 SpaceJesus

i dont believe in protection for hate speech, this is not a fringe position at all. most of the developed world is on board with this, actually.

Most of the developed world can kiss the First Amendment's ass.

137 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:46:34pm

re: #130 wrenchwench


i dont see protecting fascist speech as precious i guess.

138 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:47:01pm

re: #132 SpaceJesus

and would you likewise attribute germany's hyper nationalism to the victories of the american expeditionary force in ww1?

Nah--it's in place by the Bismark era. German infrastructure was hardly touched in WWI, a fact that bothered a lot of French Generals.

139 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:47:11pm

re: #127 Obdicut

There's been a big push over the past decade or so to say that the Muslims are the 'historic' enemy of the Jews, and to act as though Christians really weren't that bad to them.

Pisses me off.

Pure revisionism.

140 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:48:17pm

re: #138 Decatur Deb


but the german population suffered just as much in ww1, they were literally starving to death.

141 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:48:34pm

re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist

He totally has :D

Especially the 'Old Shatterhand' books (Winnetou, et al), but his other stuff is available too. The ones set in the ottoman empire are better to me tho, but maybe that's because I'm american so western stuff is old hat :p

142 albusteve  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:48:34pm

actually advocating thought crime punishment...wow
the stuff you can read here

143 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:49:25pm

re: #135 wrenchwench

We don't know, of course...

My point is that there are parallels, and there's no evidence that Germany's pacifism is in any way tied to their censorship laws.

144 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:49:43pm

re: #142 albusteve

actually advocating thought crime punishment...wow
the stuff you can read here

What's still got my head spinning is the suggestion that the Supreme Court should pretty much chuck the First Amendment in order to put such laws into place.

145 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:49:52pm

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist


most of the developed world has the exact same freedoms under our first amendment, save for the protection of fascism part.

146 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:50:21pm

re: #145 SpaceJesus

most of the developed world has the exact same freedoms under our first amendment, save for the protection of fascism part.

So then, really, they don't have the same freedoms that we do. Just governments that haven't yet to started chipping away at them.

147 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:50:25pm

re: #137 SpaceJesus

i dont see protecting fascist speech as precious i guess.

It is if you look at the big picture. If you don't look at the big picture, first you shut down fascist speech, and in the end you shut down any kind of speech that's not in fashion.

148 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:50:31pm

re: #142 albusteve


i know, those canadians just live in fear of their government up there. it's a giant freedom-less prison colony.

149 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:50:45pm

For those interested: Wiki on Winnetou (Karl May)

150 po8crg  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:51:04pm

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd go with most of that, except of course that post-1960s in parts of the Christian world (notably most of the USA and some places in Europe) has been at least asgoodas the best times in the Muslim world.

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:51:28pm

re: #145 SpaceJesus

most of the developed world has the exact same freedoms under our first amendment, save for the protection of fascism part.

That's nice for them. But in America you can say pretty much what the fuck you want.

152 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:51:51pm

re: #147 wrenchwench

not a fan of the slippery slope argument -- without more evidence.

let me know when countries like germany, canada, belgium, et al., start rounding up people for any random kind of political speech, then i will be on your side of this.

153 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:51:53pm

re: #143 windsagio

We don't know, of course...

My point is that there are parallels, and there's no evidence that Germany's pacifism is in any way tied to their censorship laws.

You missed the point of "Germany's pacifism" being a matter of discussion, not fact.

154 albusteve  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:52:16pm

re: #148 SpaceJesus

i know, those canadians just live in fear of their government up there. it's a giant freedom-less prison colony.

what's that got to do with anything? some irrelevant comparison to another country has no bearing

155 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:52:23pm

re: #140 SpaceJesus

but the german population suffered just as much in ww1, they were literally starving to death.

Yes, but starvation lacks the dramatic reformative properties of a 4000 lb bomb.

Image: p_ferguson8.jpg

156 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:52:35pm

re: #153 wrenchwench

they're pretty pacifistic, tho' :p

157 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:52:41pm

re: #152 SpaceJesus

not a fan of the slippery slope argument -- without more evidence.

let me know when countries like germany, canada, belgium, et al., start rounding up people for any random kind of political speech, then i will be on your side of this.

You can't even name your kids anything you want in Germany. There are rules that must be followed.

158 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:53:02pm

re: #150 po8crg

I'd go with most of that, except of course that post-1960s in parts of the Christian world (notably most of the USA and some places in Europe) has been at least asgoodas the best times in the Muslim world.

Sure. That was in general a statement about pre-WWII history, since post WWII is a whole different ballpark, and excluding the United States and some other areas, which are also a whole different ballpark.

159 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:53:06pm

re: #155 Decatur Deb


true, especially when they are dropped on cities like dresden for no reason

160 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:53:36pm

re: #152 SpaceJesus

not a fan of the slippery slope argument -- without more evidence.

let me know when countries like germany, canada, belgium, et al., start rounding up people for any random kind of political speech, then i will be on your side of this.

Yes, because the fact that it's not happening now means it can never happen. *rolls eyes*

161 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:53:59pm

re: #152 SpaceJesus

not a fan of the slippery slope argument -- without more evidence.

let me know when countries like germany, canada, belgium, et al., start rounding up people for any random kind of political speech, then i will be on your side of this.

Ah. This is the 'you have to prove that doing it this way would lead to disastrous consequences before you can object to doing it this way' argument.

162 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:54:02pm

re: #156 windsagio

they're pretty pacifistic, tho' :p

What do you base that on? I know they have a fair number of pacifists there, but do they make a pacifist society?

163 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:54:07pm

re: #159 SpaceJesus

true, especially when they are dropped on cities like dresden for no reason

"There blooms tonight in Essen what bloomed in Coventry."

164 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:54:52pm

re: #160 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds


not only is it not happening now, there is no present indication it will ever happen. even our first amendment has limitations, but i don't hear people using the slippery slope thing when it comes to those

165 albusteve  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:55:20pm

re: #159 SpaceJesus

true, especially when they are dropped on cities like dresden for no reason

the Nazis bombed London first, in 1941 I believe... the destruction of non military targets started right there

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:55:23pm

re: #157 wrenchwench

You can't even name your kids anything you want in Germany. There are rules that must be followed.

True in much of Europe. I still recall the French couple who were not allowed to name their son Napoleon--because the family name was Bonaparte, and the county officials thought it would be too rough on the kid.

I do not go around criticizing Europe for doing things differently. But I don't see a reason to adopt their style.

167 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:55:24pm

re: #162 wrenchwench

Lets flip it around, Germany was notoriously anti-war and anti-interventionist (from when they were allowed to become a nation again anyways) for decades. Is there any evidence that that's changed?

168 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:55:30pm

re: #145 SpaceJesus

most of the developed world has the exact same freedoms under our first amendment, save for the protection of fascism part.

IIRC, there is nothing in English law comparable to our Bill of Rights. Or in most other countries, developed or not.

169 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:56:01pm

re: #119 SpaceJesus


re: #142 albusteve

actually advocating thought crime punishment...wow
the stuff you can read here

Not so much thoughts, but speech.

And there is some speech that is reasonably criminalized, like libel.

170 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:56:03pm

re: #163 Decatur Deb


yeah, too bad the british bombed german cities first.

regardless, targeting civilian populations is wrong no matter what

171 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:56:43pm

re: #164 SpaceJesus

not only is it not happening now, there is no present indication it will ever happen. even our first amendment has limitations, but i don't hear people using the slippery slope thing when it comes to those

There are limitations on the First Amendment, such as the oft-mentioned "shouting 'Fire!' in a theater." But can you prove that any law exists on the books in this fair country that makes it illegal, under penalty of incarceration, to express a controversial idea?

172 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:57:24pm

The Sarah Palin / Ron Paul vs Shrieking Harpy thing is false equivalence. As obnoxious and as boneheaded as those two are you don't see them acting as apologists for Genocide or South African White Supremacists. You don't see them openly and aggressively allied with Eurofascists and Neo Nazis.

173 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:57:42pm

re: #170 SpaceJesus

was avoiding the 'omg they did it first!' quibbling, but this bears quoting:

regardless, targeting civilian populations is wrong no matter what

174 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:58:36pm

re: #170 SpaceJesus

yeah, too bad the british bombed german cities first.

regardless, targeting civilian populations is wrong no matter what

The purpose of war is to destroy the enemies will to resist.--TRADOC doctrine. The purpose of Dresden was to help them find their way to pacifism. You hate it, I hate it, and the answer is to avoid all war until extremis.

175 albusteve  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:58:43pm

re: #170 SpaceJesus

yeah, too bad the british bombed german cities first.

regardless, targeting civilian populations is wrong no matter what

your history is wrong

176 po8crg  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:59:17pm

re: #168 abolitionist

IIRC, there is nothing in English law comparable to our Bill of Rights. Or in most other countries, developed or not.

Actually, there is now - the Human Rights Act 1998. Article 10 reads:

"Article 10 – Freedom of expression

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."

177 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:59:41pm

re: #174 Decatur Deb

not really, the purpose was pure revenge. the war was over.

178 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 1:59:52pm

re: #167 windsagio

Lets flip it around, Germany was notoriously anti-war and anti-interventionist (from when they were allowed to become a nation again anyways) for decades. Is there any evidence that that's changed?

Are you kidding? Kosovo?! Afghanistan?! Have you been paying any attention?

179 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:01:18pm

re: #175 albusteve

your history is wrong

The first major city raid in WWII was Warsaw, followed by Rotterdam, an accidental raid on London, a revenge raid on Berlin, and open terror raids starting with Coventry. WWI already had seen indiscriminate Zepplin raids on London.

180 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:01:43pm

re: #176 po8crg

Thanks. I stand corrected.

181 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:01:47pm

re: #168 abolitionist

IIRC, there is nothing in English law comparable to our Bill of Rights. Or in most other countries, developed or not.

Define "comparable". What about the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen?

182 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:02:16pm

re: #177 SpaceJesus

not really, the purpose was pure revenge. the war was over.

War ended in May 1945, Dresden was bombed in February of the same year. If you're going to argue history, at least know the correct dates.

183 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:02:45pm

re: #179 Decatur Deb

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Just looked it up >

184 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:02:56pm

re: #178 000G

Are you kidding? Kosovo?! Afghanistan?! Have you been paying any attention?

110 factories and 50,000 workers.

185 albusteve  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:02:57pm

re: #177 SpaceJesus

not really, the purpose was pure revenge. the war was over.

then why did Germany fight on?

186 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:04:03pm

re: #182 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

for practical purposes, the war was over by that point. dresden was also not a military target.

187 albusteve  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:04:23pm

re: #179 Decatur Deb

The first major city raid in WWII was Warsaw, followed by Rotterdam, an accidental raid on London, a revenge raid on Berlin, and open terror raids starting with Coventry. WWI already had seen indiscriminate Zepplin raids on London.

thanks for that

188 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:04:32pm

re: #184 Decatur Deb

110 factories and 50,000 workers.

OOPS--that was to SJ's 117.

189 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:04:37pm

re: #185 albusteve

hardcore divisions fought in berlin till the end, the rest of the nation was beaten by that point.

190 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:05:13pm

re: #179 Decatur Deb

some question whether it was actually 'accidental' tho >

191 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:06:13pm

re: #186 SpaceJesus

for practical purposes, the war was over by that point. dresden was also not a military target.

"Practical purposes"? The battle of the Bulge had only finished some weeks prior, and while their ability to make war had been severely compromised, the Third Reich had not thrown down their arms. The war was by no means over.

192 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:06:56pm

re: #190 windsagio

some question whether it was actually 'accidental' tho >

I think the Luftwaffe crew was shot for it. Improves the navigation of the others.

193 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:07:17pm

re: #170 SpaceJesus

yeah, too bad the british bombed german cities first.

You are mistaken. Germans were the first to start bombing cities and civilians during WW2 (in Poland).

194 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:08:02pm

re: #178 000G

Unless I"m missing something, just because the German military takes parts in things doesn't mean the people like it much.

Is there something I'm missing? >>

(actually looked it up, there's really not. Germany has taken part in NATO and UN operations since 1994 when it was declared legal to, but their force sizes are tiny and strictly limited.)

195 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:08:51pm

re: #191 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

the german army was beaten by that point, and the city posed no threat

196 albusteve  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:08:55pm

re: #191 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"Practical purposes"? The battle of the Bulge had only finished some weeks prior, and while their ability to make war had been severely compromised, the Third Reich had not thrown down their arms. The war was by no means over.


the Nazi defensive fight to protect the Rhine crossings and the Ruhr valley was some of the most desperate of the western front

197 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:10:23pm

re: #192 Decatur Deb

per wiki, the germans didn't start bombing of civilian targets in the UK until a few months after the British started bombing civilian targets in germany. (may 15 vs june 22)

The underlying motive for the attacks was to divert German air forces away from the land front.[85]

198 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:10:31pm

re: #195 SpaceJesus

the german army was beaten by that point, and the city posed no threat

Battle of Berlin wasn't until April 1945. What happened between January and April? Did the Germans call a time out while they moved everything back to Berlin?

199 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:10:32pm

re: #195 SpaceJesus

the german army was beaten by that point, and the city posed no threat

Someone should have informed the Fuhrer.

200 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:10:36pm

re: #193 000G


were talking about the british and the germans, as the british were the ones who assisted in bombing of dresden

201 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:11:33pm

re: #197 windsagio

Will check.

202 albusteve  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:12:09pm

good grief...it was a fight to the death, thanks to Adolf, and now we are hearing his hundreds of thousands of troops were victimized

203 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:12:11pm

re: #201 Decatur Deb

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


... Also, how did we go all ww2 geek in here? I feel like I"m at a gaming con or something :D

204 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:12:13pm

re: #196 albusteve

"hey look, some isolated pockets of german military defenders, let's go bomb 300,000 civilians on the other side of the country"

205 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:12:59pm

re: #197 windsagio

thank you.

206 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:13:43pm

re: #181 000G

Define "comparable". What about the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen?

By comparable, I mean established by long tradition. And not punctuated by a reign of terror.

207 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:14:01pm

re: #205 SpaceJesus

not defending hitler, but when it comes that quote about "what bloomed in conventry" it is illogical

208 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:14:06pm

re: #194 windsagio

Unless I"m missing something, just because the German military takes parts in things doesn't mean the people like it much.

It's a democratic society, if the people didn't like it, they could vote to end it.

Germany has taken part in NATO and UN operations since 1994 when it was declared legal to, but their force sizes are tiny and strictly limited.

Their forces being tiny has a lot to do with technology being so much more lethal than back in the days when Germany had over a hundred divisions (and this is also another reason for the alleged "pacifism" – nowaday Germany can wage war without sacrificing many lifes of her citizens, like any industrialized nation btw). You may want to find out how many people have been killed by German forces rather than how many participate in order to make meaningful statements about "pacifism".

209 jaunte  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:14:40pm

re: #193 000G

What happened to the Poles can't be used to win this argument.

210 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:14:54pm

re: #204 SpaceJesus

"hey look, some isolated pockets of german military defenders, let's go bomb 300,000 civilians on the other side of the country"

There was an effort to reach a negotiated peace that might have left the Nazis in place or at least un-obliterated. That would not have been tolerable.

211 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:14:57pm

re: #206 abolitionist

ever heard of the alien and sedition laws? ever heard of the japanese internment camps???

212 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:15:41pm

re: #207 SpaceJesus

not defending hitler, but when it comes that quote about "what bloomed in conventry" it is illogical

Take it up with Edna St.Vincent Millay. She was there.

213 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:16:13pm

re: #208 000G

Ok you pretty clearly have a preconceived notion here and an axe to grind.

I actually tried to do research on the subject when I could be out in the beautiful sun.

If you don't like what I found, find something yourself man.

214 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:16:15pm

re: #200 SpaceJesus

were talking about the british and the germans, as the british were the ones who assisted in bombing of dresden

I am simply saying that Germany "started it" in WW2 and it had it coming.

For my part, I am a little peeved with the victimization cult of Dresden.

215 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:16:16pm

re: #211 SpaceJesus

ever heard of the alien and sedition laws? ever heard of the japanese internment camps???

I've heard about how both have been much maligned by subsequent generations of legal scholars, touted as the sorts of abuses that can happen even in a free country such as ours. But hey, it can't happen here.../

216 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:16:36pm

re: #211 SpaceJesus

which are widely despised and decried in the US now? :p

217 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:16:40pm

re: #211 SpaceJesus

ever heard of the alien and sedition laws? ever heard of the japanese internment camps???

Yes. A co-worker I once knew was a resident of such a camp.

218 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:16:46pm

re: #209 jaunte

What happened to the Poles can't be used to win this argument.

It did not "happen to them", Germans did it to them. The difference is crucial.

219 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:17:02pm

re: #214 000G

lol you are actually just a hater,

220 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:17:50pm

re: #206 abolitionist

By comparable, I mean established by long tradition. And not punctuated by a reign of terror.

Heh. Point taken. ;)

221 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:18:19pm

re: #219 windsagio

lol you are actually just a hater,

No, I am just facing reality, here, in Germany.

222 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:18:43pm

re: #214 000G

For my part, I am a little peeved with the victimization cult of Dresden.


victimization cult? you like the idea of firebombing cultural icons and children for no military advantage?

223 po8crg  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:20:03pm

re: #179 Decatur Deb

The first major city raid in WWII was Warsaw, followed by Rotterdam, an accidental raid on London, a revenge raid on Berlin, and open terror raids starting with Coventry. WWI already had seen indiscriminate Zepplin raids on London.

There were massive-scale daylight raids on London in late 1940 as part of the Battle of Britain after the (single) revenge raid on Berlin. Because the RAF Fighter Command won the Battle of Britain, inflicting unsustainable losses on the Luftwaffe, the Germans switched to night-time raids in October, including the infamous raid on Coventry (which certainly wasn't the first).

RAF Bomber Command responded with night-time raids over Germany. Arthur Harris took over Bomber Command in early 1942 and eventually got authorisation from Churchill to go to "area bombing" later in the year.

By 1944, they were conducting large-scale raids on any city that hadn't been pounded into dust. The reason Dresden is regarded as particularly objectionable is that it was chosen as a target largely because most other cities were seriously bomb-damaged already, and Dresden had not been bombed earlier because it was rather lacking in military significance.

Whether it's actually a war crime (the line between bombing cities that contain military targets and not caring how many civilians you kill and bombing civilians on purpose is pretty narrow) or not, it was strategically pointless and did kill a lot of civilians. There's a reason that Dresden and Coventry were the first two cities to twin with each other.

224 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:20:32pm

re: #217 abolitionist

so you would agree then, that even with america's "tradition" of 1st amendment rights, that we can devolve into monsters too?

225 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:20:40pm

re: #221 000G

You seem to have some unresolved anger issues with Germany, is that a better way to put it?

Everybody likes to say they're just 'facing reaity'.

226 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:20:44pm

re: #222 SpaceJesus

victimization cult? you like the idea of firebombing cultural icons and children for no military advantage?

1. Yes, there is a victimization cult. Started by the Nazis themselves and continued up until today. Research it.
2. No, I do not like the idea of firebombing children for no military advantage. Couldn't care less about cultural icons, though.

Way to have a strawman argument.

227 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:21:45pm

re: #226 000G

Couldn't care less about cultural icons, though.

yeah, no good.

228 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:21:55pm

re: #216 windsagio

indeed, but apparently, our glorious 1st amendment has always protected us from such things and will continue to do so, according to some here.

229 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:22:22pm

re: #224 SpaceJesus

so you would agree then, that even with america's "tradition" of 1st amendment rights, that we can devolve into monsters too?

Which sort of blows a massive hole in your bit above about the slippery slope. It's happened before here in America, even been approved of by the law at the time. What guarantee is there that it won't happen again?

230 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:22:33pm

re: #223 po8crg

There were massive-scale daylight raids on London in late 1940 as part of the Battle of Britain after the (single) revenge raid on Berlin. Because the RAF Fighter Command won the Battle of Britain, inflicting unsustainable losses on the Luftwaffe, the Germans switched to night-time raids in October, including the infamous raid on Coventry (which certainly wasn't the first).

RAF Bomber Command responded with night-time raids over Germany. Arthur Harris took over Bomber Command in early 1942 and eventually got authorisation from Churchill to go to "area bombing" later in the year.

By 1944, they were conducting large-scale raids on any city that hadn't been pounded into dust. The reason Dresden is regarded as particularly objectionable is that it was chosen as a target largely because most other cities were seriously bomb-damaged already, and Dresden had not been bombed earlier because it was rather lacking in military significance.

Whether it's actually a war crime (the line between bombing cities that contain military targets and not caring how many civilians you kill and bombing civilians on purpose is pretty narrow) or not, it was strategically pointless and did kill a lot of civilians. There's a reason that Dresden and Coventry were the first two cities to twin with each other.

And the British seem to have been unable to shower much honor on Harris after the war.

231 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:23:10pm

re: #225 windsagio

You seem to have some unresolved anger issues with Germany, is that a better way to put it?

Everybody likes to say they're just 'facing reaity'.

You seem to have some unresolved ignorance issues that you try to cloak with amateur psychology against people who point it out. I advice you stop that and learn about the Nazi cult of the bombing of Dresden that has over the decades morphed into the neonazi cult of the bombing of Dresden ("Bombenholocaust") which I, as a citizen here, actually have to face a lot of.

232 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:23:22pm

re: #228 SpaceJesus

I'd take it more as 'we've let fearmongering and hysteria push us off the path a few times, but we've always come back' >>

You're gonna have a problem here no matter what, whether you're right or we are, we're deeply trained to value the first amendment. Not gonna get much leverage arguing on limiting it :D

233 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:23:25pm

re: #226 000G


I lived in Dresden for a year in HS. I know a lot of people who think it was wrong who are not Nazi's. That's real low.

234 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:24:25pm

"It is well that war is so terrible. We should grow too fond of it."
Robert E. Lee

235 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:24:27pm

re: #232 windsagio

it is hard to do, and we're probably set in our ways i guess.

236 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:24:29pm

re: #224 SpaceJesus

so you would agree then, that even with america's "tradition" of 1st amendment rights, that we can devolve into monsters too?

That's always a risk with any culture. Consider Germany, Japan, the Aztecs.

237 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:25:45pm

re: #233 SpaceJesus

I lived in Dresden for a year in HS. I know a lot of people who think it was wrong who are not Nazi's. That's real low.

What is low? To acknowledge that there was a nazi and now is a neonazi victimization cult of Dresden (which, in the intermediary decades have been defended by all sorts of governments, conservative and communist alike)? Just because you know some people who think it was wrong and are not Nazis?

238 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:27:17pm

re: #236 abolitionist


America's robust tradition of free speech is a myth, though. Strengthening hate speech laws aren't going to turn us into a dictatorship, we can do that just fine without em says history.

239 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:27:20pm

re: #233 SpaceJesus

I lived in Dresden for a year in HS. I know a lot of people who think it was wrong who are not Nazi's. That's real low.

It is too narrow to focus on one wrong in a world gone wrong. We did much more damage in Japan, to the point it became difficult to find targets for the two atomic bombs.

240 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:28:39pm

re: #237 000G

the whole problem is the term 'victimization cult' implies that there wasn't, you know, 'victimization'.

It really was horrible, and it really did happen, and it really was useless.

~~

It's like saying blacks are exploiting victimization from segregation (I haven't heard the term 'victimization cult' used there, but it probably has... the argument is certainly there).

Somebody trying to exploit the crime after the fact doesn't lessen the crime itself.

241 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:28:48pm

re: #238 SpaceJesus

America's robust tradition of free speech is a myth, though. Strengthening hate speech laws aren't going to turn us into a dictatorship, we can do that just fine without em says history.

So passing them will...what? Just outlaw hate speech further, not serve as incentive to find other forms of "hate speech" to outlaw? If I can be jailed for expressing doubt about genocide, can I likewise be jailed for expressing doubt about my elected officials?

242 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:29:23pm

re: #237 000G

You made that statement about the "victimization cult" at ME. You didn't mention Nazis until later. You were directly implying that people such as myself who think the bombing was wrong are part of this "victimization cult."

243 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:30:14pm

re: #240 windsagio

the whole problem is the term 'victimization cult' implies that there wasn't, you know, 'victimization'.

No, it does not imply that.

It's like saying blacks are exploiting victimization from segregation (I haven't heard the term 'victimization cult' used there, but it probably has... the argument is certainly there).

No, it's not like that, because in my statement there is nothing analogous to the term "blacks" in your statement.

Somebody trying to exploit the crime after the fact doesn't lessen the crime itself.

Straw man.

244 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:30:53pm

re: #239 Decatur Deb

in trying to find more info on this, I happened upon this crazy chart, let me see if I can copy/paste it:

Conventional bombing damage to Japanese cities in WWII[158]
City % area
destroyed
Yokohama 58
Tokyo 51
Toyama 99
Nagoya 40
Osaka 35.1
Nishinomiya 11.9
Shimonoseki 37.6
Kure 41.9
Kobe 55.7
Omuta 35.8
Wakayama 50
Kawasaki 36.2
Okayama 68.9
Yahata 21.2
Kagoshima 63.4
Amagasaki 18.9
Sasebo 41.4
Moji 23.3
Miyakonojō 26.5
Nobeoka 25.2
Miyazaki 26.1
Ube 20.7
Saga 44.2
Imabari 63.9
Matsuyama 64
Fukui 86
Tokushima 85.2
Sakai 48.2
Hachioji 65
Kumamoto 31.2
Isesaki 56.7
Takamatsu 67.5
Akashi 50.2
Fukuyama 80.9
Aomori 30
Okazaki 32.2
Ōita 28.2
Hiratsuka 48.4
Tokuyama 48.3
Yokkaichi 33.6
Ujiyamada 41.3
Ōgaki 39.5
Gifu 63.6
Shizuoka 66.1
Himeji 49.4
Fukuoka 24.1
Kōchi 55.2
Shimizu 42
Omura 33.1
Chiba 41
Ichinomiya 56.3
Nara 69.3
Tsu 69.3
Kuwana 75
Toyohashi 61.9
Numazu 42.3
Choshi 44.2
Kofu 78.6
Utsunomiya 43.7
Mito 68.9
Sendai 21.9
Tsuruga 65.1
Nagaoka 64.9
Hitachi 72
Kumagaya 55.1
Hamamatsu 60.3
Maebashi 64.2

245 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:31:10pm

re: #241 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds


Under a hate speech law which criminalizes holocaust denial, no you would not be.

246 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:31:47pm

re: #242 SpaceJesus

You made that statement about the "victimization cult" at ME.

Uh, no. What I said was:

For my part, I am a little peeved with the victimization cult of Dresden.

By the way, I didn't find it neccessary to mention the nazis. I thought since you knew the history of the bombing, you also were knowledgeable about the history of the propaganda war that followed it. I was mistaken to assume that. My bad.

247 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:31:59pm

re: #243 000G

straw man doesn't mean quite what you think it means :P

But this is sutpid and its a beautiful day. You guys have fun.

248 albusteve  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:32:11pm

re: #238 SpaceJesus

America's robust tradition of free speech is a myth, though. Strengthening hate speech laws aren't going to turn us into a dictatorship, we can do that just fine without em says history.

that's an absurd notion....you cannot prosecute people because they deny a scientific or historical fact....your bootheel mentality is exactly what the 1st is for

249 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:32:16pm

It's reveal my pasty legs to the world for the first time this summer day!

250 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:32:52pm

it's actually kind of funny that we are talking about bombing cities in a thread about geller being an idiot.

251 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:33:09pm

re: #247 windsagio

straw man doesn't mean quite what you think it means :P

Yes, it does. It means you are arguing a point I did not make but presenting it as if I did, in this case implying that I argued that "somebody trying to exploit the crime after the fact lessens the crime itself".

252 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:33:16pm

re: #245 SpaceJesus

Under a hate speech law which criminalizes holocaust denial, no you would not be.

Why only the Holocaust? Is it the only genocide in the history of the world which is denied by some? I consider what happened to the American Indian population to be genocide, can I jail any dumb redneck who says otherwise?

253 po8crg  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:33:40pm

re: #230 Decatur Deb

And the British seem to have been unable to shower much honor on Harris after the war.

It's certainly notable that Viscount Montgomery of Alamein outranks Sir Arthur Harris, Bt. by several steps. There are quite a few Viscountcies for senior commanders in WWII - (Admiral) Andrew Cunningham, (General) William Slim, for instance. Alexander got a full Earldom, Dowding a Barony. Keith Park was a New Zealander and couldn't be given an hereditary title.

Harris was kept very much in the background, and is still a very controversial figure here - partly because of the area bombing strategy he championed, and partly because of the enormous casualties among aircrew, for which he got the nickname "Butcher Harris" - he gets something of the reputation of a WWI general for throwing his own men away, as well as the near-warcrime status of bombing Germany to bits.

254 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:34:44pm

re: #248 albusteve


over broad. i'm saying that promoting holocaust denial is hate speech. if you want to argue about the existence of shakespeare, you're not going to jail

255 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:35:33pm

re: #252 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

woops, i mean genocide in general, yes. the holocaust and events similar to it fit in that.

256 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:36:50pm

I am opposed to laws anywhere in the world limiting speech and political association. In the case of post-war Germany, that shows itself as a very minor irritation.

257 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:37:03pm

re: #255 SpaceJesus

woops, i mean genocide in general, yes. the holocaust and events similar to it fit in that.

So, we've just gone from Holocaust denial to denial of genocide happening, period. Now, do we jail simply those who flat out deny or do we also include those who express "skepticism"? If I say that I believe the Holocaust happened, but I have "doubts," does that mean I can find myself behind bars?

258 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:37:26pm

re: #228 SpaceJesus

indeed, but apparently, our glorious 1st amendment has always protected us from such things and will continue to do so, according to some here.

Not I. Our glorious 1st amendment did not protect us from interning Japanese Americans during WWII. That was a shameful episode, and I shall speak out and more should such a thing be proposed in the future.

I shall also speak out when somebody takes free speech lightly. I'm going to need all the free speech I can get to speak out against internment camps. So I'm pushing back at your attitude about free speech.

259 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:40:16pm

re: #257 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds


i don't know exactly where i would draw the line on that, it would be open for debate. i'd probably model it after germany's law, then leave any grey area of interpretation to the courts, as one can never mold a perfect law.

260 albusteve  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:40:16pm

re: #254 SpaceJesus

over broad. i'm saying that promoting holocaust denial is hate speech. if you want to argue about the existence of shakespeare, you're not going to jail

such bullshit...I'm surprised you cannot see the flaw in your position...denying the holocaust is not hate speech by any standard I can conjure....to me hate speech is standing at a funeral and screaming faggot! or killer!....if so bust them for disturbing the peace

261 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:42:51pm

re: #259 SpaceJesus

i don't know exactly where i would draw the line on that, it would be open for debate. i'd probably model it after germany's law, then leave any grey area of interpretation to the courts, as one can never mold a perfect law.

And if that debates going in favor of jailing those who express skepticism, what then?

262 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:43:03pm

re: #258 wrenchwench

good, as you should. i was mainly talking to those who said that you can't compare america to the rest of the world because we have some kind of sterling tradition when it comes to freedom of speech.

263 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:45:16pm

re: #261 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds


personally, i think i would vote in favor of jailing skeptics. the denialists would just start calling themselves skeptics to skirt the law.

264 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:45:33pm

re: #186 SpaceJesus

dresden was also not a military target.

JFTR, untrue.

Dresden was, in February 1945, known to contain at least 110 factories and industrial enterprises that were legitimate military targets, and were reported to have employed 50,000 workers in arms plants alone.8 Among these were dispersed aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabric Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); the great Zeiss Ikon A.G., Germany’s most important optical goods manufactory; and, among others, factories engaged in the production of electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch and Sterzel A.G.), gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke), and electric gauges (Gebruder Bassler).9

10. Specific military installations in Dresden in February 1945 included barracks and hutted camps and at least one munitions storage depot.10

[Link: www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil...]

265 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:45:51pm

re: #201 Decatur Deb

Will check.

re: #197 windsagio

per wiki, the germans didn't start bombing of civilian targets in the UK until a few months after the British started bombing civilian targets in germany. (may 15 vs june 22)

Coming back this late--This is what I got on the 'who bombed civilians first' issue. The difference looks like an issue of scale.

The Western Front, 1939 to June 1940

In 1939, following the German invasion of Poland, the United Kingdom and France declared war on Germany and the war in the West began. Britain attempted to bomb German warships and light vessels in several harbors on 3 and 4 September.[54] Eight German Kriegsmarine men were killed at Wilhelmshaven - the war's first casualties to British bombs;[55] attacks on ships at Cuxhaven[56][57] and Heligoland followed.[58][59] Germany's first strikes were not carried out until the 16th and 17 October 1940, against the British fleet at Rosyth and Scapa Flow. Little activity followed.[60] Meanwhile, attacks by the Royal Air Force dwindled to less than one a month. As the winter set in, both sides engaged in propaganda warfare, dropping leaflets on the populations below.[61] The Phony War continued.

The British government banned attacks on land targets and German warships in port due to the risk of civilian casualties.[62] For the Germans, the earliest directive from the Luftwaffe head Hermann Göring permitted restricted attacks upon warships anywhere, as well as upon troop transports at sea.[63] However, Hitler's OKW Direktive Nr 2 and Luftwaffe Direktive Nr 2, prohibited attacks upon enemy naval forces unless the enemy bombed Germany first, noting, "the guiding principle must be not to provoke the initiation of aerial warfare on the part of Germany."

After the Altmark Incident, the Luftwaffe launched a strike against the British navy yard at Scapa Flow on 16 March 1940, leading to the first British civilian death. A British attack followed against the German airbase at Hörnum on the island of Sylt,[64] hitting a hospital, although there were no casualties.[65] The Germans retaliated with a naval raid.

On 10 May 1940, Germany invaded Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg, intending to drive through the Ardennes into France and strike a quick blow that would end the war. This assault initiated the Battle of France. As it began, three German bombers from KG 51 mistakenly bombed the German city of Freiburg instead of the French airfield of Dole-Taveux, having lost their way over the Black Forest. The Germans reported it as an Allied 'terror attack', and not until 1956, when the mistake was brought to light by researchers, was the myth dispelled.[52]

German bombing of France began on the night of 9/10 May. By 11 May the French reported bombs dropped on Henin-Lietard, Bruay, Lens, La Fere, Loan, Nancy, Colmar, Pontoise, Lambersart, Lyons, Bouai, Hasebrouck, Doullens and Abbeville with at least 40 civilians killed.[66]

On 12 May 1940, the British launched their first attacks on transport targets in the German industrial Ruhr Valley, including Cologne.[67][68] While Allied light and medium bombers attempted to delay the German invasion by striking at troop columns and bridges, the British War Cabinet gave permission for limited bombing raids against targets such as roads and railways west of the River Rhine.[69] The first British bombs fell on Mönchengladbach on the night of 11/12 May 1940, while Bomber Command was attempting to hit roads and railroads near the Dutch-German border; four people were killed.[70][71] Targets in Gelsenkirchen were attacked first on the 14/15 May.[72]

266 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:46:07pm

re: #264 000G


those factories were all located in the suburbs of the city, which were untouched by the bombing.

267 albusteve  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:47:50pm

re: #263 SpaceJesus

personally, i think i would vote in favor of jailing skeptics. the denialists would just start calling themselves skeptics to skirt the law.

dude, that's over the edge...
you may be next

268 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:48:25pm

re: #266 SpaceJesus

those factories were all located in the suburbs of the city

Nope. Zeiss Ikon, for instance, was partially in the center of the city.

269 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:49:27pm

"we better not lower the voting age to 18 guys, next thing you know 12 year olds will be voting."

270 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:53:50pm

re: #268 000G

And a little more:

The Wehrmacht's main command post in the Taschenbergpalais, 19 military hospitals and a number of less significant military facilities were also destroyed.[76] Almost 200 factories were damaged, 136 seriously damaged (including several of the Zeiss Ikon precision optical engineering works), 28 with medium to serious damage, and 35 with light damage.[77]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

JFTR, I am not saying that civilians did not get targeted or killed. I am saying that Dresden was a legitimate military target and that military-industrial installations were indeed destroyed by the attack.

271 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:55:39pm

re: #268 000G

re: #268 000G


the heavy industry was located in the suburbs, the allies managed to slightly damage some light industry in the city at the price of tens of thousands of civilians. what production capacity were those light factories running at even?

272 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 2:56:43pm

re: #270 000G

And a little more:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

JFTR, I am not saying that civilians did not get targeted or killed. I am saying that Dresden was a legitimate military target and that military-industrial installations were indeed destroyed by the attack.


the suburbs had some military potential, the city center itself had little, that is why the city was largely untouched for the majority of the war.

273 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 3:01:00pm

re: #271 SpaceJesus

re: #268 000G

the heavy industry was located in the suburbs, the allies managed to slightly damage some light industry in the city at the price of tens of thousands of civilians. what production capacity were those light factories running at even?

If Dresden was incinerated, the destruction of any industry would have been more than 'light'. Like ball-bearings, fire-control optics are a choke-point for military production.

re: #272 SpaceJesus

the suburbs had some military potential, the city center itself had little, that is why the city was largely untouched for the majority of the war.

By Feb 1945, we were pretty well out of untouched targets. Don't get me wrong--this was a terror raid, designed to crush morale and bring the whole slaughter to an end.

274 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 3:02:56pm

re: #263 SpaceJesus

personally, i think i would vote in favor of jailing skeptics. the denialists would just start calling themselves skeptics to skirt the law.

So, would it be ok for me to call you a First Amendment skeptic? Or denialist? Personally, I'm glad neither is a crime.

The degree of reliance we humans have on connotations and associations in our communications is scary. I once described myself to friends as a latent heterosexual. Didn't get any laughs. At all.

275 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 3:05:08pm

re: #273 Decatur Deb

and terror bombing is considered illegal under the laws of war.


"The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy."

that's Churchill

276 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 3:06:36pm

re: #274 abolitionist

So, would it be ok for me to call you a First Amendment skeptic? Or denialist? Personally, I'm glad neither is a crime.

The degree of reliance we humans have on connotations and associations in our communications is scary. I once described myself to friends as a latent heterosexual. Didn't get any laughs. At all.


we're talking about genocide skeptics and denialists who use their "skepticism" to promote hate speech against different groups. nothing good can ever come from protecting that, and i don't see the slippery slope.

277 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 3:07:24pm

re: #275 SpaceJesus

and terror bombing is considered illegal under the laws of war.

"The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy."

that's Churchill

Yes-that's one of the reasons for Precision Guided Weapons. A 1000-plane raid was a hopelessly sloppy enterprise. We still can't keep the JDAMS out of wedding celebrations.

278 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 3:15:56pm

re: #222 SpaceJesus

victimization cult? you like the idea of firebombing cultural icons and children for no military advantage?

War is hell.

So (to a lesser and obviously hyperbolic degree) is talking to people who have figured out that the defining war of the twentieth century was not won by bloodless angels.

I'm upthread if anyone needs me.

279 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 3:16:30pm

re: #224 SpaceJesus

so you would agree then, that even with america's "tradition" of 1st amendment rights, that we can devolve into monsters too?

The First is there to KEEP us from devolving into monsters if at all possible.

280 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 3:21:09pm

re: #279 SanFranciscoZionist

well it hasn't done the best job of it. see McCarthyism for instance.

281 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 3:22:06pm

re: #278 SanFranciscoZionist


it sure is, but it has rules. see the tokyo trials

282 teleskiguy  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 3:54:49pm

Charles, god love ya! You read this shit so LGF readers don't have to. You provide a valuable, if not stomach-turning service at LGF.

283 windsagio  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 4:02:07pm

re: #277 Decatur Deb

Late and late, but went on a walk (soon to go on another), the brits were actually pretty notorious in that regard...

Altho' its funny how it works, the US didn't like saturation bombing in Europe, but were sure willing to use it in the pacific.

284 EiMitch  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 10:06:38pm

re: #96 SpaceJesus

i would disagree, with germany as a case in point. i would attribute germany's mainstream pacifism to the fact that extreme right wing rhetoric is not allowed there.


Hmm... Being ashamed of what happened under Hitler's watch, being split in half during the cold war, being prohibited from having their own military for quite awhile...

Nope. It's gotta be the laws. Because everyone knows that germans are only good for doing what they are told. /sarc

Seriously, hate-speech laws are based on a naive principle. You can't make a crazy idea (or any idea, for that matter) go away by making a martyr of a crazy spokesperson.

This is ancient roman empire naive. For awhile, they scratched their heads in confusion, because they were certain that they successfully nipped some retarded little cult called "christianity" in the bud.

For a modern example, look at Geert Wilders. I mean, look where he is now. The law hasn't stopped him. Sick, twisted haters like him always find a way. Just ask 4chan.
re: #107 SpaceJesus

the crazies can't be fought with ideas because they are so warped,


This is a strawman! Everyone knows you can't out-smart crazy. That was never the point. The point is to expose crazy as crazy, before someone else drinks the kool-aid.

Besides, if a society is so far-gone that only speech laws keep it from going the way of the Nazis, then its a safe bet that there are deeper festering social problems that can be ignited by any number of other things.

In other words, if a nation truly needs hate speech laws, its already too late.

I dare speculate (based on my zero years in psychology training) that this is all beside the point for you, SpaceJesus. Hate speech laws are for feeling good, not doing good. Its very satisfying to think we can lock-up future Hitlers and be done with them. We all like to think that the nuts can be made shut up before our ears bleed from the stupidity.

But the real world is never that simple.

285 Winny Spencer  Sat, Jun 4, 2011 11:42:23pm

re: #170 SpaceJesus

yeah, too bad the british bombed german cities first.

regardless, targeting civilian populations is wrong no matter what

Too bad that you are a Nazi apologist. Before any bombing of German cities, there was Warsaw and Rotterdam.

What the hell are you playing at?

286 chupa  Sun, Jun 5, 2011 1:59:48am

As an American who is married to a Bosnian, and whose primary residence is in Tuzla, I find this astonishingly ignorant. It doesn't take a lot of time in their beautiful country to see the lingering emotional scars from the war. It is impossible to classify Bosnians as militant muslims, and it is impossible to deny the atrocities the muslim population faced here as the only un-armed group in the war if you have ever lived amongst them. They are some of the friendliest and laid back people you will ever meet.

Not to mention, I met my Bosnian wife in Afghanistan, where she and thousands of her fellow Bosnians are currently employed as US Government Contractors in support of the US military and ISAF.

It really is sad what the Republican party and people like Pamela Geller have become. Maybe she should come out to Afghanistan and meet some Bosnians in person before opening her mouth again.

287 EiMitch  Sun, Jun 5, 2011 11:22:28am

re: #286 chupa


It really is sad what the Republican party and people like Pamela Geller have become. Maybe she should come out to Afghanistan and meet some Bosnians in person before opening her mouth again.

Never going to happen. Why should they jeopardize their bizzaro-worldviews for the sake of knowledge? Especially since the new right clearly fears and despises knowledge, anyway.

288 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jun 5, 2011 2:59:33pm

re: #285 Winny Spencer

You fucking idiot, we are talking about Germany and Britain. Read. See post 163 you moron.

289 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jun 5, 2011 3:03:14pm

re: #284 EiMitch

If you need hate speech laws, it's already too late?

Is it already too late in Canada? Hate speech is kind of incendiary speech that does not deserve protection because it does no good whatsoever.

290 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jun 5, 2011 3:04:15pm

re: #285 Winny Spencer

Too bad that you are a Nazi apologist.


I would also just like to point out that you are a **** for that.

291 EiMitch  Sun, Jun 5, 2011 8:12:04pm

re: #289 SpaceJesus

Hate speech is kind of incendiary speech that does not deserve protection because it does no good whatsoever.

Yes. Repeating yourself helps your argument. After all, I'm a lazy bastard who missed that point earlier as I skimmed over the thread, then pretended to have read it. /sarc

Is it already too late in Canada?

Having certain laws and needing them are two different things.

In a nut-shell I argued that hate speech laws don't work, and that it is better to expose these wingnuts for what they really are.

Yet, you decided to focus entirely on the comment about it being too late, and take it a just teeny bit out of context.

Whatever.

292 EiMitch  Sun, Jun 5, 2011 8:15:37pm

re: #288 SpaceJesus

You fucking idiot, we are talking about Germany and Britain. Read. See post 163 you moron.


Oh, I almost forgot. You need to watch your language.

**revels in the little ironies**

293 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jun 5, 2011 11:19:00pm

re: #291 EiMitch


Hate speech laws don't work? Nations that have them have far less hate rhetoric in their mainstream discourse than we do, so yeah, they work. The wingnuts will be exposed for what they really are at trial.


As to Wilders, the man is on trial, and we will see how it pans out for him.

294 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jun 5, 2011 11:19:35pm

re: #292 EiMitch


if you think that is hate speech you need to look at the definition

295 Winny Spencer  Mon, Jun 6, 2011 12:26:31am

re: #288 SpaceJesus

You fucking idiot, we are talking about Germany and Britain. Read. See post 163 you moron.

Be as indignant as you want.

You chose to bring up Dresden for no reason. Before that the subject hadn't even been broached.

"Look, Britain started it! Germany just responded!!! The British were just as bad as the Nazis!!" By leaving out the indiscriminate bombing of Polish cities and Rotterdam, you piss on the memory of all those who fought Nazism.

So what was the purpose of writing that comment and neglecting to mention Warsaw and Rotterdam, if not to be a Nazi apologist?

Scum.

296 EiMitch  Mon, Jun 6, 2011 12:27:05am

re: #294 SpaceJesus

if you think that is hate speech you need to look at the definition


Adept at missing the point, aren't you? At least you seem calm this time.
re: #293 SpaceJesus

Nations that have them have far less hate rhetoric in their mainstream discourse than we do,


Only caring about the surface, eh?

Heres what a brief, lazy search of LGF shows up, from just last year:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And going waaaayyy back to '09:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Hate-speech laws have saved the day!

...

Just in case: /sarc

P.S. - I wonder how much I would find if I got serious with my search, and went google?

...

Nah, I'm too lazy.

297 Winny Spencer  Mon, Jun 6, 2011 12:30:03am

The comment being #170.

298 EiMitch  Mon, Jun 6, 2011 12:33:49am

re: #295 Winny Spencer

Okay, enough. You're reading a bit too much into this, and speculating on his motives based on dumb little things.

...

What? I speculated in jest. I wasn't serious. You are. Knock it off. Its not worth it.

299 Winny Spencer  Mon, Jun 6, 2011 12:40:57am

Ok, I guess I'm done.


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