GOP Shuts Down Minnesota State Government

Is this how they’re going to create jobs?
US News • Views: 32,932

Today the Republican Party of Minnesota actually shut down the state government rather than compromise on tax increases for the wealthiest.

The governor said his last offer would have raised income taxes only on those earning more than $1 million a year — an estimated 7,700 Minnesotans, or 0.3 percent of all taxpayers, according to the Revenue Department.

Republicans rejected the proposal, Dayton said, because they “prefer to protect the richest handful of Minnesotans at the expense of everyone else.”

Republican leaders made their own statement, saying Dayton’s proposal for dealing with the projected $5 billion deficit would cause irreparable harm to the state’s economy for generations.

Uh huh. But is this the whole story? Of course not; because just as Republicans are doing on the national level, the Minnesota GOP tried to push through a raft of far right social policies along with their “budget.”

Talks may have also broken down because an earlier GOP offer asked Dayton to accept controversial policy positions the Republicans pushed for this year, including photo ID requirements at the polls and abortion restrictions. An offer sheet provided to the Star Tribune said the policy adoptions were in exchange for “new revenue in a compromise offer.”

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267 comments
1 mr.fusion  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:18:33am

20,000 state workers are going to be affected by this

In order to protect 7,700 millionaires the Minnesota GOP screwed 20,000 of the middle class (and their families). Democracy in action

2 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:18:40am
Republican leaders made their own statement, saying Dayton’s proposal for dealing with the projected $5 billion deficit would cause irreparable harm to the state’s economy for generations.


How exactly? Why are people expected to just take it as gospel from these people just because they say it. Break it down, HOW WILL THIS DO WHAT YOU SAY? People not having to show ID at the polls will destroy the economy HOW? Raising the taxes on the millionaires will kill the economy HOW? Not imposing stringent, religious restrictions on abortions will harm the economy HOW?

3 laZardo  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:19:13am

re: #1 mr.fusion

20,000 state workers are going to be affected by this

In order to protect 7,700 millionaires the Minnesota GOP screwed 20,000 of the middle class (and their families). DemocracyConservatism in action

FTFY.

OH MINNESOTA.

Also new thread, time for bed.

4 mr.fusion  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:21:50am

This is clearly a harbinger of what’s to come on the debt ceiling vote. The GOP isn’t going to come off their ransom demands, and the Dems can’t back down now that they’ve drawn a line in the sand.

I was always kind of skeptical that the GOP would actually allow the country to default just to make Obama look bad. I hate to be so cynical but I think Schumer is right when he says the GOP wants to tank the economy on purpose just to screw the President……I don’t think they care about protecting millionaires as much as they just hate this President.

Obama’s going to have to use the 14th, and the Tea Party is going to have an absolute aneurysm

5 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:22:26am

But Rush was saying Minnesota was proof that the GOP were fixing the economy, just like they were fixing it in Texas and NJ.

6 makeitstop  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:25:34am

Afternoon, Lizards.

I wish many things for the GOP, but I’ll wish them privately so as not to get a timeout. Various afflictions and infestations are involved.

7 laZardo  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:26:23am

re: #6 makeitstop

Afternoon, Lizards.

I wish many things for the GOP, but I’ll wish them privately so as not to get a timeout. Various afflictions and infestations are involved.

A POX ON the elected officials to BOTH YOUR HOUSES of the legislative branch!!

8 Iwouldprefernotto  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:27:02am

Why is abortion a tax issue?

9 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:28:06am

Wow - the “anti-jihad” meltdown is reaching nuclear proportions. Pamela Geller just posted a vicious attack against “Baron Bodissey” and Gates of Vienna.

Good. I hope they eat each other alive.

10 dragonfire1981  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:28:07am

I’m curious, when was the last time a Democratic controlled state legislature got completely shut down?

11 dragonfire1981  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:28:27am

re: #9 Charles

Wow - the “anti-jihad” meltdown is reaching nuclear proportions. Pamela Geller just posted a vicious attack against “Baron Bodissey” and Gates of Vienna.

Good. I hope they eat each other alive.

Whoever wins, we lose.

12 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:29:51am

re: #8 Iwouldprefernotto

Why is abortion a tax issue?

Everything is morally equivalent to the extreme right: taxes, abortion, homosexuality, paedophilia, bestiality, pornography, restrictions on gun ownership, government regulations on emissions or financial transactions.

These are all abdominations unto The Lord, and none may pass any legislture that they control.

13 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:30:51am

re: #9 Charles

Get your popcorn, Cracker Jacks, soda, and step right up! We’ve got front row seats still available.

Welcome back my friend to the show that never ends… we’re so glad you could attend… come inside!

14 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:31:25am

re: #4 mr.fusion

Remember, Mitch McConell said that the republicans number one job was to take Obama out of the white house. Bottom line, yes they will fuck over everyone and everything (save for the millionaires and corporations) in order to take out Obama.

This is one reason of many that i could never vote republican.

15 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:32:20am

So much for “Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s….”

16 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:33:06am

re: #9 Charles

Wow - the “anti-jihad” meltdown is reaching nuclear proportions. Pamela Geller just posted a vicious attack against “Baron Bodissey” and Gates of Vienna.

Good. I hope they eat each other alive.

I’ve been watching that this morning. From the comments at Pam’s site I think they also quietly parted ways with Vlaams Belang and Geert Wilders at some point. It’s not like they weren’t warned about this a long time ago.

17 dragonfire1981  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:35:26am

Romans 13:6-7

This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

18 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:36:53am

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Reminds me of the line from Star Wars - Who’s the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?

19 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:38:29am

re: #17 dragonfire1981

Teapartians 13:6-7

This is also why you must abolish taxes, for the authorities are Satan’s servants, who give their full time to corrupting America. Give as little as possible: If you owe taxes, find a tax break; if revenue, then a deferral; if respect, then grudgingly; if honor, then the honor of thieves.

20 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:39:19am

The spending at issue, by the way, was cuts to welfare and health care.

That’s what they refused to compromise on, both of them.

The Democratic governor refused to let it be cut.

The GOP refused to not let it be cut. They insisted on cutting welfare and health care.

Health care is a mess. However, welfare is one of the stupidest places to cut; not only does it just push the problem around— those very poor people aren’t going to magically get money for themselves, and will still, one way or another, be the problem of the government (sheriffs departments having to evict people from their houses, for example) but that money goes right back into the economy in a very efficient way.

That’s leaving aside the far-right anti-abortion agenda they were pushing, of course, and their attempts to disenfranchise voters.

21 Bulworth  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:41:01am
Remember, Mitch McConell said that the republicans number one job was to take Obama out of the white house.

Yeah, but because Obama accused the GOP of doing what it is in fact doing, Obama is a “dick”.

22 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:41:34am

This kind of slash and burn policy making is exactly why I do fear a US default.

23 Bulworth  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:43:21am

I meant to say, “Yeah, but because Obama told the truth about the GOP, Obama is a “dick”. “

24 blueraven  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:43:34am

From Bruce Bartlett, a conservative economist and former economic adviser to Reagan


Will Higher Taxes Tank the Economy?

Back in 1982, Ronald Reagan was persuaded that the deficit was such a severe impediment to growth that a tax increase to reduce it would be economically beneficial. Many in his party strenuously objected, citing research by Republican economists. For example, on August 12, 1982, U.S. Chamber of Commerce president Richard Lesher sent to Congress an analysis of the proposed tax increase. Said Lesher:

If H.R. 4961 is passed in these troublesome economic times, we have no doubt that it will curb the economic recovery everyone wants. It will mean a lower cash flow as more businesses pay more taxes, with a depressing effect on stock prices. It will reduce incentives for the increased savings and investment so badly needed to improve productivity and create more jobs. It will mean higher prices for many products and services. It will increase government costs in caring for those who, because the economy is held down, cannot find employment.

It would be hard to find an economic forecast that was more wrong in every respect. Looking at real gross domestic product, it grew 4.5 percent in 1983 and 7.2 percent in 1984 – an exceptionally strong performance. The stock market had one of its best years ever in 1983 – both the Dow Jones Industrial Average and the S&P 500 Index rose 35 percent. There was no increase in the rate of inflation, which was exactly the same in 1983 and 1984 as it was in 1982. The unemployment rate fell from 10.6 percent in December 1982 to 8.1 percent by December 1983 and 7.1 percent in December 1984.

The Chamber was not an outlier. Virtually every Republican economist made similar dire predictions. Economist Arthur Laffer told his clients on July 26, 1982, that the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act, which raised taxes by about one percent of GDP, “will stifle economic recovery,” “retard economic growth,” and undercut “the economy’s ability to enter into a period of expansion.” On August 20, 1982, he told his clients that TEFRA “will tend to lengthen and deepen the recession.” Writing in the New York Times on September 12, 1982, economist Norman Ture said the administration’s claim that TEFRA would promote economic growth was “bizarre.” He said it would “weaken the impetus for economic growth” and make the economic recovery “less certain and less vigorous.”

Rinse, repeat in 1993

On August 20, 1993, Laffer told his clients, “Clinton’s tax bill will do about as much damage to the U.S. economy as could feasibly be done in the current political environment.” He said that interest rates would rise and the stock market would fall.

25 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:44:45am

re: #16 Killgore Trout

I’ve been watching that this morning. From the comments at Pam’s site I think they also quietly parted ways with Vlaams Belang and Geert Wilders at some point. It’s not like they weren’t warned about this a long time ago.

What assholes. Of course, they’ll never admit that I was right all along, as they were smearing and mocking and lying, doing everything in their power to damage my reputation.

26 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:45:04am

re: #24 blueraven

The relationship of taxes to the economy is a matter of faith for the modern GOP, not one of real economics or even history.

27 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:45:35am

re: #26 Obdicut

The relationship of taxes to the economy is a matter of faith for the modern GOP, not one of real economics or even history.

What isn’t a matter of faith to the modern GOP?

28 Mongo only pawn... in game of life.  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:45:47am

I like transparency in government. Just like this. You can see right through it to who the GOP/TP really takes it’s orders/money/funding/direction from. I can see for miles.

29 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:45:49am

re: #16 Killgore Trout

I’ve been watching that this morning. From the comments at Pam’s site I think they also quietly parted ways with Vlaams Belang and Geert Wilders at some point. It’s not like they weren’t warned about this a long time ago.

You’ve never had kids, have you

Sometimes, you can warn them all you want about putting their fingers near “something”
Most will listen, but some won’t until they get their finger pinched in that “something”

30 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:47:14am

re: #16 Killgore Trout

This anti-jihad armageddon has to be related to money somehow. I suspect one of their big backers is getting scared of the Nazi connections, and threatening to cut the purse strings. Geller and Spencer would have no problem otherwise.

31 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:47:40am

re: #25 Charles

She’s still, of course, lying about the EDL, claiming it was ‘infiltrated’ by antisemitism. The antisemitism was always there. It was started by white supremacists. Their website was built by a fascist. He claims that they were ‘noble and pure’ is ridiculous whitewashing.

32 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:48:37am

re: #9 Charles

Wow - the “anti-jihad” meltdown is reaching nuclear proportions. Pamela Geller just posted a vicious attack against “Baron Bodissey” and Gates of Vienna.

Good. I hope they eat each other alive.

Is Pammie doing a “Charles Johnson”?

33 Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:48:53am

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Wow. They are quite smitten with Charles over there aren’t they? lol.
But don’t worry about what is going on with the EDL, Kufar (Sherlock Holmes) Dawg has got it all figured out.

Kufar Dawg said…
I don’t understand why the nazi types aren’t supporting the Muslo-nazis. After all, their ideologies are more similar than different.

I wonder if these nazi types in the EDL could be deliberate plants to undermine their respectability?

34 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:49:02am

re: #32 reine.de.tout

Is Pammie doing a “Charles Johnson”?

The irony is just delicious.

35 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:49:36am

re: #30 Charles

This anti-jihad armageddon has to be related to money somehow. I suspect one of their big backers is getting scared of the Nazi connections, and threatening to cut the purse strings. Geller and Spencer would have no problem otherwise.

Money is probably a factor, most of the obvious squabbling seems mostly motivated by power, control and leadership. The money behind the scenes may be getting nervous.

36 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:50:44am

re: #32 reine.de.tout

Is Pammie doing a “Charles Johnson”?

And she’s also getting all the same hate from fascist supporters that she directed at LGF.

37 Alexzander  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:51:05am

re: #31 Obdicut

She’s still, of course, lying about the EDL, claiming it was ‘infiltrated’ by antisemitism. The antisemitism was always there. It was started by white supremacists. Their website was built by a fascist. He claims that they were ‘noble and pure’ is ridiculous whitewashing.

Reading that actually made me feel pretty sad for her - such a self-deluding worldview that is now crumbling.
She thinks she is “fighting for freedom.” Don’t we all?

38 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:51:26am

re: #17 dragonfire1981

Romans 13:6-7

This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

anybody who studies the new testament carefully and attempts to live by its commands and precepts is in danger of being declared a dangerous communist revolutionary and a peril to the nation’s youth

39 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:53:59am

re: #37 Alexzander


She thinks she is “fighting for freedom.” Don’t we all?

I’m always plagued with doubt that I’m achieving anything at all in my struggles.

I find it a useful way to keep humility around.

40 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:58:38am

re: #37 Alexzander

You can fight for freedom without selling your soul to the devil by aligning with neo nazis, fascists, and other hate-mongers. She’s chosen not to.

That’s where I draw the line.

41 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 10:59:32am

re: #39 Obdicut

I find it a useful way to keep humility around.

You’re in NYC ,, just wait till August

Oh ,, wait ,, I thought you typed HUMIDITY!!

42 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:00:19am

re: #40 lawhawk

That’s where I draw the line.

Sidewalk artist?

43 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:01:05am

re: #2 RayFerd

How exactly? Why are people expected to just take it as gospel from these people just because they say it. Break it down, HOW WILL THIS DO WHAT YOU SAY? People not having to show ID at the polls will destroy the economy HOW? Raising the taxes on the millionaires will kill the economy HOW? Not imposing stringent, religious restrictions on abortions will harm the economy HOW?

Raising taxes on persons making over $1M a year might, arguably, hurt the economy. It would depend on how high the taxes were raised, and whether the effect of that increase would be to prompt enough of those high earners to pull up stakes and move to another state.

This isn’t an altogether theoretical worry. There was a state on the East coast that imposed a tax on yachts. Yacht owners are rich, right? They can afford the tax, and the money that would come from it would benefit everybody.

But what in reality happened was that the yachting business in that state dried up. Many jobs were lost, and virtually no tax was collected.

State taxes exist in a context of other states. If you’re getting a lot of money as it is from one cohort of your taxpayers, it’s wise to consider the likely result of a tax bill, rather than just assume that the people in line for more taxation will happily pony up.

People not having to show ID at the polls wouldn’t have any direct adverse impact on the economy. On the other hand, we lock our cars. We lock our houses. We don’t leave the cars there for just anybody to drive off with if they feel like it. What’s the harm in taking similar precautions with voting?

As to abortion, well, that doesn’t have any negative effect on a state’s economy on any time scale relevant to political and budget decisions. If ever.

44 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:02:01am

re: #37 Alexzander

Reading that actually made me feel pretty sad for her - such a self-deluding worldview that is now crumbling.
She thinks she is “fighting for freedom.” Don’t we all?

Considering all the damage she has done and (I have no doubt) will continue to do, I can’t find her a sympathetic figure in the least. I feel sorry for anyone whose life she touched, including her daughters.

45 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:03:29am

re: #43 lostlakehiker

Raising taxes on persons making over $1M a year might, arguably, hurt the economy. It would depend on how high the taxes were raised, and whether the effect of that increase would be to prompt enough of those high earners to pull up stakes and move to another state.

This isn’t an altogether theoretical worry. There was a state on the East coast that imposed a tax on yachts. Yacht owners are rich, right? They can afford the tax, and the money that would come from it would benefit everybody.

But what in reality happened was that the yachting business in that state dried up. Many jobs were lost, and virtually no tax was collected.

State taxes exist in a context of other states. If you’re getting a lot of money as it is from one cohort of your taxpayers, it’s wise to consider the likely result of a tax bill, rather than just assume that the people in line for more taxation will happily pony up.

People not having to show ID at the polls wouldn’t have any direct adverse impact on the economy. On the other hand, we lock our cars. We lock our houses. We don’t leave the cars there for just anybody to drive off with if they feel like it. What’s the harm in taking similar precautions with voting?

As to abortion, well, that doesn’t have any negative effect on a state’s economy on any time scale relevant to political and budget decisions. If ever.

The problem with taking a similar situation with voting is that it’s been shown that statistically those people who can vote but don’t have ID are statistically more likely to vote Democrats.

It’s not about stopping Voter Fraud Hiker, it’s about trying to stack the deck.

46 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:05:53am

re: #44 wrenchwench

Considering all the damage she has done and (I have no doubt) will continue to do, I can’t find her a sympathetic figure in the least. I feel sorry for anyone whose life she touched, including her daughters.

P.S. She has attempted even more harm than she has achieved. Just think of the disasters that could have been if she were successful.

47 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:06:48am

re: #45 jamesfirecat

If we just instituted a mandatory national ID as proof of citizenship/residence, we would solve a lot of problems with voter/welfare fraud, illegal immigration and crime.

But that would be seen as a government plot to enslave us.

48 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:08:38am

re: #45 jamesfirecat

The problem with taking a similar situation with voting is that it’s been shown that statistically those people who can vote but don’t have ID are statistically more likely to vote Democrats.

It’s not about stopping Voter Fraud Hiker, it’s about trying to stack the deck.

And the question is, why don;t they HAVE an ID

here in Georgia, the state will provide one free of charge. In fact, for the elderly and/ or people that may have not be able to get to a state office (no car,, no access to public trans) the state will pick you up, bring you there and bring you back

49 Ericus58  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:11:18am

Federal judge blocks South Dakota abortion law

[Link: news.yahoo.com…]

“In a 61-page opinion granting the preliminary injunction, U.S. District Court Chief Judge Karen Schreier found Planned Parenthood’s challenge of the counseling centers and waiting period would likely succeed.

The help center requirements “constitute a substantial obstacle to a woman’s decision to obtain an abortion because they force a woman against her will to disclose her decision to undergo an abortion to a pregnancy help center employee before she can undergo an abortion,” Schreier wrote.

The three-day waiting period also effectively forces a woman to make two trips to the one available clinic and potentially wait a month between visits, she found.

Schreier also noted that no other state has laws that require similar waiting periods, a required counseling session at a “pregnancy help center” or for a doctor to certify that a woman has not been coerced.”

50 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:11:40am

re: #48 sattv4u2

And the question is, why don;t they HAVE an ID

here in Georgia, the state will provide one free of charge. In fact, for the elderly and/ or people that may have not be able to get to a state office (no car,, no access to public trans) the state will pick you up, bring you there and bring you back

I don’t have any studies on me at the moment so instead I’ll appeal to your conservative nature… show me a study that shows voter fraud done by people without voter ids is a big issue…. otherwise, well if it isn’t broke don’t fix it.

51 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:12:35am

re: #44 wrenchwench

Considering all the damage she has done and (I have no doubt) will continue to do, I can’t find her a sympathetic figure in the least. I feel sorry for anyone whose life she touched, including her daughters.

Her claim to be shocked — shocked! — at the Nazis and extremists is pure bullshit. The history and nature of the EDL is no secret, and Pamela knew all along exactly who she was palling around with.

The EDL has tried to keep the thuggishness under wraps, but lately the thugs are getting restless and letting their racism and antisemitism spill out in public, more than usual. And Geller couldn’t ignore the antisemitism any longer, when an EDL leader actually starts quoting from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

52 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:13:20am

re: #43 lostlakehiker

Raising taxes on persons making over $1M a year might

and yet when republican politicians talk about medicare, medicaid, social security, and education, we hear then cry in an agitated tone of voice, “WE CAN’T AFFORD IT!!”

well, we can’t afford to keep the tax rates at historically low levels for wealthy people

WE CAN’T AFFORD IT

53 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:13:31am

re: #50 jamesfirecat

I don’t have any studies on me at the moment so instead I’ll appeal to your conservative nature… show me a study that shows voter fraud done by people without voter ids is a big issue… otherwise, well if it isn’t broke don’t fix it.

The question isn’t about about “voter fraud done by people without voter ids is a big issue ”

The question is basic

Why NOT have an ID especially, as I stated, its free and easily obtained?

54 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:13:50am

re: #45 jamesfirecat

It’s also an issue severely clouded by partisan rancor. Of course the devil is in the details of exactly how you build the law. I think I can make a good case for a good voter ID law. I’m not familiar with the language of the recent bills.

When you consider how a lack of ID disenfranchises, or obstructs/impairs many kinds of activity, seems obvious to me it should be important to get ID to the poor. Modern society essentially requires it in many ways.

I happen to think voter ID is an excellent way to make that necessary and reduce the error margin so we can have more confidence in those very close election results and the recounts. It’s not about fraud, the other positive side is more accurate elections. Of course the law has to be constructed carefully. I see no reason states could not issue free ID to the poor. It would also help the administration of aid.

55 Alexzander  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:13:53am

re: #51 Charles

You might say Pamela has been ‘palling around with terrorists.’

56 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:14:25am

Meanwhile, in addition to the usual Muslim-bashing, Geller is continuing her now-open denial of the Serbian genocide against Muslims.

57 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:15:15am

re: #55 Alexzander

You might say Pamela has been ‘palling around with terrorists.’

Nonsense. Only Muslims can be terrorists.

///

58 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:15:29am

re: #54 Rightwingconspirator

I see no reason states could not issue free ID to the poor.

As stated, here in Georgia, not only is the ID free, but they’ll come pick you up, bring you to the county office then bring you home

59 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:15:31am

re: #51 Charles

Her claim to be shocked — shocked! — at the Nazis and extremists is pure bullshit. The history and nature of the EDL is no secret, and Pamela knew all along exactly who she was palling around with.

The EDL has tried to keep the thuggishness under wraps, but lately the thugs are getting restless and letting their racism and antisemitism spill out in public, more than usual. And Geller couldn’t ignore the antisemitism any longer, when an EDL leader actually starts quoting from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

The blatant display of Neo-Nazi imagery, customs, and rhetoric was kind of a give away.

60 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:16:24am

re: #53 sattv4u2

The question isn’t about about “voter fraud done by people without voter ids is a big issue “

The question is basic

Why NOT have an ID especially, as I stated, its free and easily obtained?

Because they’re not as easily obtained as you think they are.

[Link: www.readersupportednews.org…]


A study by the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee found that more than half of black male Wisconsinites do not have a state-issued photo ID. (This number rises to nearly 80 percent among those aged 18-24.) The same is true of nearly a fifth of the state’s white population and nearly half of its Latino residents, with the numbers rising sharply after age 65.

The ID cards provided by the University of Wisconsin, meanwhile, do not meet the Wisconsin bill’s requirements for student identification. “There’s no question this bill would greatly impact youth access to the ballot box,” says Matt Guidry of the United Council of UW Students, which has been active in opposing voter-ID measures. Last week, the group organized a day of action at the statehouse.

61 shutdown  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:16:59am

re: #56 Charles

Meanwhile, in addition to the usual Muslim-bashing, Geller is continuing her now-open denial of the Serbian genocide against Muslims.

Unbelievable. Link to a (cached) article, please?

62 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:17:15am

re: #56 Charles

Meanwhile, in addition to the usual Muslim-bashing, Geller is continuing her now-open denial of the Serbian genocide against Muslims.

How can anyone deny the Serbian genocides? That makes no damn sense.

63 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:17:24am

re: #58 sattv4u2

Why is it so many of these supposed impediments to voting are so easily overcome by the smallest effort or knowledge? Not all but quite a few.

64 Jack Burton  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:17:45am

re: #31 Obdicut

She’s still, of course, lying about the EDL, claiming it was ‘infiltrated’ by antisemitism. The antisemitism was always there. It was started by white supremacists. Their website was built by a fascist. He claims that they were ‘noble and pure’ is ridiculous whitewashing.

This is the pretzel-logic and outright denial of reality I was expecting. It’s almost embarrassing to witness. She’s been warned repeatedly and just can’t admit she was wrong even if it means going down with the ship.

“Ah yes ‘Neo-Nazis’, antisemitic thugs which allegedly make up the EDL, BNP, and Vlaams Belang. We have dismissed those claims.”

” I said there was gonna be trouble, but you didn’t listen to me! You guys are crazy! You know, you guys are self-destructive! There’s a funny farm that has your names written all over it.”

OK… I’m done for now…

65 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:17:56am

re: #59 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The blatant display of Neo-Nazi imagery, customs, and rhetoric was kind of a give away.

Pfft. Those are just “lone wolves” that have nothing to do with the movement at large.

///

66 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:18:14am

re: #60 jamesfirecat

require voters to present a state-issued photo ID at the polls.

wow ,, what a “burden”

So instead of going to a Wal Mart to make a personal ID card, tyou have to go to a state office (in most large cities and in all counties)

67 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:18:29am

re: #43 lostlakehiker


People not having to show ID at the polls wouldn’t have any direct adverse impact on the economy. On the other hand, we lock our cars. We lock our houses. We don’t leave the cars there for just anybody to drive off with if they feel like it. What’s the harm in taking similar precautions with voting?
.

The harm is that it disenfranchises voters, mostly students, minorities, and the elderly. You know that, of course.

68 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:18:58am

re: #62 Lidane

No more or less than denial of the WW2 holocaust. Just as shameful and deliberate.

69 blueraven  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:19:09am

re: #43 lostlakehiker

I cant tell you how many times I have heard this same anecdotal acct of how taxing destroyed a business. Why dont you name the city/state and link to the particulars?

Were there other factors involved? When was this?

70 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:19:39am

re: #60 jamesfirecat

A study by the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee found that more than half of black male Wisconsinites do not have a state-issued photo ID

Why?
Are they overly expensive??

Do they only have one office thats only open a half hour a week??

71 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:19:51am

re: #67 Obdicut

Not where ID is easily available.

72 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:20:25am

re: #66 sattv4u2

require voters to present a state-issued photo ID at the polls.

wow ,, what a “burden”

So instead of going to a Wal Mart to make a personal ID card, tyou have to go to a state office (in most large cities and in all counties)

Try this on for size ….

[Link: www.whosplayin.com…]

* Although most working age middle-class citizens do have drivers’ licenses, this is not the case for everyone. Specifically, older citizens who have quit driving, or are in nursing homes not only lack valid drivers licenses, but they lack the ability to get to the polls. Their votes should count. Previous generations realized this, and have provided for mail-in ballots. Requiring ID other than a valid voter registration, effectively kills the mail-in-ballot.
* Identification in the United States is not yet standardized and adopted. The only national identification that proves not only citizenship AND identification is the U.S. Passport. A drivers license is simply a license to drive. These are issued to foreign nationals today – even in Texas. By law, it is supposed to reflect an individual’s residential address. Different states have different license and ID cards, with many different versions. Ask any bartender about how difficult it is to keep track of what each state’s IDs look like, and the fact that they have special books – thick books- that show and describe versions of the IDs of each state. Bills that call for ID at the time of voter registration are problematic because they make it difficult for new residents from other states and counties to register to vote. If one must first get their ID or Driver’s license address corrected, and then register to vote, you effectively lengthen the 30 day requirement for pre-registration before an election.
* Documents like birth certificates, passports, and naturalization certificates that prove one’s citizenship are not commonly and widely held by even the average citizen. Each of these documents costs money to obtain – in Texas, $23 to obtain a copy of your Texas birth certificate. If you were born in another state, there will be some cost, along with a good amount of hassle to obtain this document. Putting a price on the prerequisites for voting implements a de-facto Poll Tax, which is constitutionally prohibited.
* Strict ID requirements create long lines and confusion at the polls. I can tell you from personal experience, having worked the polls on Election Day, that getting people checked in on the voter rolls and getting them ballots takes time. There are seldom enough volunteers to help with this. If we had been required to check IDs and verify an exact match, it would have lengthened lines and caused legitimate voters to either turn around, or have to wait a long time. Now for me personally, I’ll wait in line however long it takes. But unfortunately, many Americans are so ambivalent or disaffected by the system that they would just turn around.
* There is just not currently an inexpensive, fair, and unobtrusive way to verify citizenship of voters, other than the methods currently in use.
* So far, the extent of the problem with voter fraud has not been quantified, other than anecdotal cases. But the bills that have been discussed to combat this problem carry definite quantified costs to the taxpayers, and anticipated costs in terms of disenfranchised voters.

73 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:20:32am

re: #66 sattv4u2

require voters to present a state-issued photo ID at the polls.

wow ,, what a “burden”

So instead of going to a Wal Mart to make a personal ID card, tyou have to go to a state office (in most large cities and in all counties)

Find me a state office that’s open on the weekends or after normal business hours. While you’re at it, find me an employer with low-wage workers who would be flexible enough to allow them to take the time to go to those state offices during business hours to get an ID.

74 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:20:41am

re: #69 blueraven

I cant tell you how many times I have heard this same anecdotal acct of how taxing destroyed a business. Why dont you name the city/state and link to the particulars?

Were there other factors involved? When was this?

particularly the luxury yacht trade story which has been told over and over again for going on 20 years now

75 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:20:55am

re: #67 Obdicut

The real answer to this bugaboo is push ID to those populations you point out.

76 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:21:33am

re: #54 Rightwingconspirator

It’s not just about free ID, though, it’s about the time spent and the precursors. To get an ID, you have to bring other documentation with you— like birth certificates, etc. If you start out with no ID, it can be very hard to get an ID, and it can be costly.

There is absolutely no credible reason to believe that there is any statistically significant amount of voter fraud occurring. The investigation by the Bush DOJ found that there wasn’t. It is attempting to solve a problem that doesn’t exist, and in the process, oh-so-coincidentally, disenfranchising groups that tend to vote for Democrats.

The voter ID schemes are never accompanied with good plans to get IDs to all those who need them. I’d take them a lot more seriously if they were.

77 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:21:36am

re: #72 jamesfirecat

Although most working age middle-class citizens do have drivers’ licenses, this is not the case for everyone

{sigh}

STATE ISSUED FREE VOTER ID CARD

c’mon,,, you can say it

78 Ericus58  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:22:52am

re: #60 jamesfirecat

[Link: www.dot.wisconsin.gov…]

Obtaining an identification (ID) card

Any Wisconsin resident who does not hold a valid drivers license from Wisconsin or another jurisdiction may request a photo ID. There is no age limit to apply for an ID card. When applying, it will be necessary to provide:

* Proof of name and date of birth, for example, a certified U.S. birth certificate, valid passport or certificate of naturalization.
* Proof of identity (usually a document with a signature or photo).
* Proof of Wisconsin residency.
* Proof of U.S. citizenship, legal permanent resident status, legal conditional resident status or legal temporary visitor status.
* Your social security number.

Free Wisconsin ID cards for voting

A free ID card is available under Wisconsin law to anyone who:
* will be at least 18 years of age on the date of the next election and;
* requests an ID card for the purpose of voting.

A free ID card is NOT available under the following circumstances:

* If you currently have a valid, unexpired driver license (DL), you are not eligible under Wisconsin law to obtain an ID.
* If you will not be at least 18 years of age on the date of the next election.
* If you already have a Wisconsin ID card that is not eligible for renewal (you may renew your ID card up to one year prior to its expiration date).
* If you are not eligible to vote in Wisconsin.

79 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:23:01am

re: #75 Rightwingconspirator

The real answer to this bugaboo is push ID to those populations you point out.

I agree. But these voter ID mandates never do that. And I don’t think they want to; most of the times, these are being pushed by the GOP in what seems a rather obvious desire to lower the number of Democrats who are voting.

80 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:23:06am

re: #75 Rightwingconspirator

The real answer to this bugaboo is push ID to those populations you point out.

That’s the answer only if the question is, “How do we stop voter fraud?” However, the question is bogus. There is no voter fraud on the scale that would justify the demonstrable disenfranchising effects.

81 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:23:19am

re: #77 sattv4u2

Although most working age middle-class citizens do have drivers’ licenses, this is not the case for everyone

{sigh}

STATE ISSUED FREE VOTER ID CARD

c’mon,,, you can say it

What proof do you need to bring with you to get one of those ID cards?

Also what about mail in ballots?

82 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:23:37am

re: #78 Ericus58

But what do you need to get the ID card?

83 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:23:38am

re: #73 Lidane

Find me a state office that’s open on the weekends or after normal business hours. While you’re at it, find me an employer with low-wage workers who would be flexible enough to allow them to take the time to go to those state offices during business hours to get an ID.

So in an entire year, you’re telling me theres not one single day that someone would find time to go to a state office

really,, REALLY !?!?

84 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:25:21am

re: #83 sattv4u2

So in an entire year, you’re telling me theres not one single day that someone would find time to go to a state office

really,, REALLY !?!?

If that were one’s focus in life, of course everyone could do it. But why disenfranchise those who have other priorities that would make it difficult?

85 Funky_Gibbon  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:26:16am

re: #77 sattv4u2
{sigh}

STATE ISSUED FREE VOTER ID CARD

c’mon,,, you can say it

It’s all about creating a new hoop to jump through in the hope of discouraging people from registering.

86 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:27:12am

re: #83 sattv4u2

you are right in the sense of being logically correct.

there is logic, and then there is human nature and human interaction. the two intersect only partially.

the MOST LOGICAL solution would be to have a national ID card as proof of citizenship and an indication of local residence.

but you can imagine what sort of gut reaction that would provoke from both right and left…

87 Ericus58  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:27:19am

re: #82 Obdicut

But what do you need to get the ID card?

The section just above gives what is required to obtain.

88 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:27:32am

re: #85 Funky_Gibbon

{sigh}

STATE ISSUED FREE VOTER ID CARD

c’mon,,, you can say it

It’s all about creating a new hoop to jump through in the hope of discouraging people from registering.

Really?

So they better never plan to fly, or cash a check then right?

89 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:27:48am

re: #83 sattv4u2

So in an entire year, you’re telling me theres not one single day that someone would find time to go to a state office

really,, REALLY !?!?

Like I said— open thre: #83 sattv4u2

So in an entire year, you’re telling me theres not one single day that someone would find time to go to a state office

really,, REALLY !?!?

When’s the last time you had to work for an hourly wage that barely paid your bills, and with an asshole boss who expects you there for an entire shift unless you’re bleeding or in the hospital? Maybe you work two jobs to get by, so you rarely get days off as it is.

Also, if you don’t have a car, there’s the added burden of taking public transport to those state offices, meaning more time lost.

Like I said— open those state offices on the weekends and after standard 8-5 office hours, and it might be easier for folks who need it to get an ID. It’s not as simple as all that.

90 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:28:35am

re: #87 Ericus58

The section just above gives what is required to obtain.

Yeah, but the problem is… is it free to get those things that they ask for?

Because if its not free to get your Birth Certificate, passport, or certificate of naturalization than its not really “free” to get the card either is it?

91 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:28:42am

re: #89 Lidane

Also, if you don’t have a car, there’s the added burden of taking public transport to those state offices,

Like I said, here in GA they’ll (the state) will come pick you up and bring you home

92 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:28:50am

re: #79 Obdicut

Have you read my point about increasing the accuracy of close races?
Voter fraud is hardly the only reason to do two things-Push ID to certain populations that lack it, and reduce the error margin in elections. Possible vote disenfranchisement is not the only consequence of not having ID for the poor or the elderly.

93 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:29:59am

re: #80 wrenchwench

So a little fraud is ok? I disagree. Especially in close results.

94 shutdown  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:30:33am

re: #84 wrenchwench

re: #83 sattv4u2

In many cases, even if the will to go to a state office is there, the ability truly is not. think about a single parent who uses public transportation. In many second and third tier cities, public transportation does not run every 5 minutes, and does not take a direct route downtown. Going to a government office, waiting in line, filling out paperwork and returning home can be a full day ordeal. During this time, who is taking care of the children? Going to the grocery store? Not as easy as it sounds for those already borderline disenfranchised.

95 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:31:08am

re: #87 Ericus58

The section just above gives what is required to obtain.

And it includes things that cost money, like a birth certificate.
So it is not, in fact, free.

and again: It is solving a problem that doesn’t exist. Personally, I fucking hate it when the government does that. It wastes money and screws with people, for no actual good reason.

96 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:31:15am

CBS News/New York Times Poll. June 24-28, 2011. N=979 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.
“What do you think is the most important problem facing this country today?” Open-ended

Economy/Jobs 53
Budget deficit/National debt 7
Health care 4
War/Iraq/Afghanistan 4
Education 2
Misc. government issues 2
Politicians/Government 2
Big government/Bureaucracy 2
President/Barack Obama 2
Other 18
Unsure 4
Fish -13

budget issues clock in at an anemic 7%. voter fraud, abortion, public employee unions, illegal aliens don’t even appear on the list

what the hell does the GOP think it’s doing?

97 makeitstop  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:31:19am

re: #69 blueraven

I cant tell you how many times I have heard this same anecdotal acct of how taxing destroyed a business. Why dont you name the city/state and link to the particulars?

Were there other factors involved? When was this?

I had the same thought. Which ‘East Coast state?’

I’m curious as to whether there’s a link for this story.

98 Ericus58  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:31:24am

re: #90 jamesfirecat

Yeah, but the problem is… is it free to get those things that they ask for?

Because if its not free to get your Birth Certificate, passport, or certificate of naturalization than its not really “free” to get the card either is it?

Unless I’m mistaken, everyone that resides here had better already have one of those items.

Even if they don’t ever vote.

99 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:31:39am

re: #82 Obdicut

But what do you need to get the ID card?

That is why both the push to get ID out there and voter ID rules would have to be carefully crafted. But it’s not an insurmountable task.

100 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:31:54am

re: #89 Lidane

open those state offices on the weekends and after standard 8-5 office hours
,

[Link: www.dds.ga.gov…]

Georgia

Tuesday - Friday 7:30 - 6:30
Saturday 7:30 am - 12 noon

101 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:31:55am

re: #84 wrenchwench

If that were one’s focus in life, of course everyone could do it. But why disenfranchise those who have other priorities that would make it difficult?

Because they’re poor & look different.

102 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:31:58am

re: #93 Rightwingconspirator

So a little fraud is ok? I disagree. Especially in close results.

How much are you willing to pay to wipe it out?

[Link: www.politicususa.com…]

103 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:32:38am

re: #91 sattv4u2

Like I said, here in GA they’ll (the state) will come pick you up and bring you home

But they don’t do that here in Texas. You’re on your own. For the working poor, that means switching shifts with someone to block out the time to go to the DMV and get an ID, or missing an entire day of work if the bus ride there is going to take a while.

104 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:33:08am

re: #92 Rightwingconspirator

Have you read my point about increasing the accuracy of close races?

Yes. I’m not sure why you think that it would help to increase the accuracy to force people to show up with ID. There would be a number of legitimate voters turned away because they didn’t have ID; are you including that in your calculation of accuracy?

Possible vote disenfranchisement is not the only consequence of not having ID for the poor or the elderly.

Shouldn’t that be up to them? And again, I’d totally believe this was the case— if any of the proposals were serious attempts to increase the amount of IDs held by those populations. They aren’t. The most they do is make the ID themselves free, which is not nearly sufficient.

And the real effect is to disenfranchise those populations. How does that increase accuracy, when legitimate voters are denied voting?

105 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:33:25am

re: #75 Rightwingconspirator

The real answer to this bugaboo is push ID to those populations you point out.

Mobile Customer Service Center.

Getting the ID is a one time thing. Birth certificate required; marriage certificate for women wanting their husband’s name on the DL.

Afterwards, it can be renewed online.

106 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:33:27am

re: #102 jamesfirecat

The costs of what I enumerated above are acceptable. Nothing is 100% of course. But voter ID is a way to reduce fraud and reduce inaccuracy.

107 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:33:37am

re: #88 sattv4u2

Really?

So they better never plan to fly, or cash a check then right?

Guess what? THEY DON”T! They ride buses not expensive ass planes & they cash checks at places that charge 10 to 25% of the checks total for the privilege of being ripped off.

108 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:34:05am

re: #73 Lidane

For starters - some states have condensed work weeks that allow the relevant agencies to stay open later or open earlier during the week in exchange for being closed on Friday. Utah has that setup.

NJ has MVC hours until 7:30 on Tuesdays, plus is open for a couple of hours on Saturday.

109 3eff Jeff  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:34:18am

re: #92 Rightwingconspirator

Have you read my point about increasing the accuracy of close races?
Voter fraud is hardly the only reason to do two things-Push ID to certain populations that lack it, and reduce the error margin in elections. Possible vote disenfranchisement is not the only consequence of not having ID for the poor or the elderly.

The error in close elections doesn’t come from fraud. It comes from our inability to quickly count accurately on that scale. It’s a mechanical problem.

110 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:34:30am

re: #107 wlewisiii

Guess what? THEY DON”T! They ride buses not expensive ass planes & they cash checks at places that charge 10 to 25% of the checks total for the privilege of being ripped off.


Wow ,, and if they only went and got a FREE STATE ID, think of how much they would save!!

:)

111 makeitstop  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:34:43am

re: #89 Lidane

Like I said— open thre: #83 sattv4u2

When’s the last time you had to work for an hourly wage that barely paid your bills, and with an asshole boss who expects you there for an entire shift unless you’re bleeding or in the hospital? Maybe you work two jobs to get by, so you rarely get days off as it is.

Also, if you don’t have a car, there’s the added burden of taking public transport to those state offices, meaning more time lost.

Like I said— open those state offices on the weekends and after standard 8-5 office hours, and it might be easier for folks who need it to get an ID. It’s not as simple as all that.

Those things don’t happen in the real world. Bosses are the nicest, most gregarious people in the world, which is why we should give small businesses tax cuts (unless Obama says we should, then we shouldn’t because then it’s bad).
/

112 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:35:16am

re: #108 lawhawk

For starters - some states have condensed work weeks that allow the relevant agencies to stay open later or open earlier during the week in exchange for being closed on Friday. Utah has that setup.

NJ has MVC hours until 7:30 on Tuesdays, plus is open for a couple of hours on Saturday.

see #100 (and thats just the office closest to me ,, others have longer Saturday hours)

113 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:35:28am

re: #93 Rightwingconspirator

So a little fraud is ok? I disagree. Especially in close results.

The problem is there isn’t any fraud. None. The only case recently in Wisconsin was a Republican legislative staffer who voted at home and in Madison. How does the disenfranchisement of many stop that one?

114 blueraven  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:36:01am

re: #97 makeitstop

I had the same thought. Which ‘East Coast state?’

I’m curious as to whether there’s a link for this story.

*crickets*

115 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:36:16am

re: #110 sattv4u2

Wow ,, and if they only went and got a FREE STATE ID, think of how much they would save!!

:)

It’s free only if they already have all the other relevant documents they need to get that ID. Or are you deliberately ignoring that little detail?

116 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:37:00am

re: #106 Rightwingconspirator

The costs of what I enumerated above are acceptable. Nothing is 100% of course. But voter ID is a way to reduce fraud and reduce inaccuracy.

re: #110 sattv4u2

Wow ,, and if they only went and got a FREE STATE ID, think of how much they would save!!

:)

If you have to pay money for the things you need to get the ID its not really free my friend….

It’s like saying I can bake myself a free cake if I buy the ingredients.

Know any state that gives out free birth certificates?

117 Thorzdad  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:37:38am

This is just the beginning. We are entering the end-game of what the conservative movement started with the Reagan “revolution”. They are frighteningly close to making good on the “starve the beast” battleplan, and they smell blood. They are so tantalizingly close to the goal that nothing is going to get in the way.

Minnesota is just the start. And it’s going to embolden the Congresscritters.

If you think the crowd in Congress will end-up voting to raise the debt ceiling, I believe you are going to be in for a huge disappointment. It ain’t gonna happen.

118 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:38:24am

re: #101 wlewisiii

Because they’re poor & look different more likely to vote Democrat.

FTFY.

119 3eff Jeff  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:38:26am

re: #116 jamesfirecat

Know any state that gives out free birth certificates?

Hawaii?

////

120 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:38:29am

re: #110 sattv4u2

Wow ,, and if they only went and got a FREE STATE ID, think of how much they would save!!

:)

Try living on minimum wages (or less) for awhile, then come back and blat about what a cure all that is. How much does that birth certificate cost? $25 here. So much for a “Free” ID.

121 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:38:55am

re: #104 Obdicut

I’m not defending versions that are crafted to have a skewed impact. I’m defending the idea that a properly crafted Voter ID program coupled with an ID push would be well worthwhile for many reasons.

Many of the arguments about disenfranchisement are answered by very little effort on the part of a person to vote. Perhaps a few hours gathering documents or applying for replacements. Likely much less.

My favorite is those phone calls that tell people to vote Wednesday. The smallest bit of education or a single phone call to electoral offices on that would render it ineffective. But we have a tendency to set the bar very low in terms of what we expect people to do to ensure their registration and vote.

122 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:39:42am

re: #109 3eff Jeff

A mechanical problem that can be helped by tighter administration of the vote and the count.

123 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:40:11am

re: #115 Lidane

It’s free only if they already have all the other relevant documents they need to get that ID. Or are you deliberately ignoring that little detail?

So far, every “little detail” that you’ve had I’ve given you an answer (see #’s 83, 91 and 100)

SO,, you’re now going to tell me that every one of those people do NOT have a birth certificate, or a social security number,,, electric/ gas/ water bills in their name,,
none of them

wow

124 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:40:44am

re: #116 jamesfirecat

re: #110 sattv4u2

If you have to pay money for the things you need to get the ID its not really free my friend…

It’s like saying I can bake myself a free cake if I buy the ingredients.

Know any state that gives out free birth certificates?

Yup,,, birth certif ,,, $12

SS card ,, FREE!!

wow

125 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:40:57am

re: #116 jamesfirecat

re: #110 sattv4u2

If you have to pay money for the things you need to get the ID its not really free my friend…

It’s like saying I can bake myself a free cake if I buy the ingredients.

Know any state that gives out free birth certificates?

Precisely why I call for a coupled effort. An ID push and Voter ID crafted for accuracy not partisanship.

126 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:41:48am

re: #124 sattv4u2

Yup,,, birth certif ,,, $12

SS card ,, FREE!!

wow

Also, how do you handle voter ID checking for people who want to do mail in ballots?

127 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:41:50am

re: #116 jamesfirecat

re: #124 sattv4u2

Yup,,, birth certif ,,, $12

SS card ,, FREE!!

wow

((and that was Massachusetts just this year ,, needed a copy of moms after she passed))

128 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:42:59am

re: #126 jamesfirecat

Also, how do you handle voter ID checking for people who want to do mail in ballots?

ummm,, errrr,, once you HAVE a valid ID (voter ID,,, drivers license,, etc) THEN you can request a mail in ballot

But keep moving the goal posts ,, this is fun!!

NOT

129 3eff Jeff  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:43:39am

re: #122 Rightwingconspirator

A mechanical problem that can be helped by tighter administration of the vote and the count.

No. You are wrong. The mechanical problem I’m referring to is the fact that humans are bad at tallying numbers for hours on end. Most of the error is on the back end. If you want accuracy, that money is better spent coming up with better methods to physically count the ballots.

130 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:45:13am

re: #121 Rightwingconspirator

I’m not defending versions that are crafted to have a skewed impact. I’m defending the idea that a properly crafted Voter ID program coupled with an ID push would be well worthwhile for many reasons.

Sure. But that idea is not actually being pushed for anywhere, and not in the case we’re talking about, in Minnesotta.

Many of the arguments about disenfranchisement are answered by very little effort on the part of a person to vote. Perhaps a few hours gathering documents or applying for replacements. Likely much less.

What is the cutoff? How much effort should we require out of people in order to vote? If it were seven days solid work, would that be too much?

I’m personally a fan of mandatory voting, but that’ll never happen.


My favorite is those phone calls that tell people to vote Wednesday. The smallest bit of education or a single phone call to electoral offices on that would render it ineffective. But we have a tendency to set the bar very low in terms of what we expect people to do to ensure their registration and vote.

And the reason for that is that the vote is the foundation of our democracy, and we should do everything in our power to make sure that all of those who can legitimately vote and want to do so, can do so. It is the way our democracy should work.

You can say that people being lazy about voting is the problem, but people don’t get to decide when to vote. They may have tons of shit going on that day, but it’s the only day they get to vote. Requesting a mail-in ballot (which, incidentally, makes the voter ID stuff kind of moot) is a very good way around it, but a lot of people don’t really understand it and don’t know that it’s available to them.

131 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:45:27am

re: #120 wlewisiii

Try living on minimum wages (or less) for awhile, then come back and blat about what a cure all that is. How much does that birth certificate cost? $25 here. So much for a “Free” ID.

I have

and coincidently, thats when I got my 1ststate ID!!

132 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:46:09am

re: #113 wlewisiii

The problem is there isn’t any fraud. None. The only case recently in Wisconsin was a Republican legislative staffer who voted at home and in Madison. How does the disenfranchisement of many stop that one?

None at all? Illegal immigrant votes were confirmed in the case of Bob Dornan. The confirmed cases were not enough to overturn the election, but some was confirmed none he less.

133 makeitstop  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:46:20am

Still no link on the ‘yacht tax’ story.

Maybe I should just file that one under ‘unconfirmed anecdote.’

134 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:46:35am

re: #124 sattv4u2

Yup,,, birth certif ,,, $12

SS card ,, FREE!!

wow

Your first birth certificate, the one issued upon a person’s actual birth, doesn’t cost anything; except for someone to hang onto it. It’s needed to register for school and all sorts of things, so most parents have and keep these things.

135 iossarian  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:46:40am

re: #121 Rightwingconspirator

I’m not defending versions that are crafted to have a skewed impact. I’m defending the idea that a properly crafted Voter ID program coupled with an ID push would be well worthwhile for many reasons.

So you’d need to find a voter ID program that has been implemented without affecting turnout proportions. Sadly, I don’t think those exist - voter ID programs always depress participation of people with less time to spend dealing with the extra hassle, and those people disproportionately vote for the more left-wing party.


Many of the arguments about disenfranchisement are answered by very little effort on the part of a person to vote. Perhaps a few hours gathering documents or applying for replacements. Likely much less.

Again, time you are more likely to have if, for example, you can afford to have a spouse stay at home, or not have to work two jobs to make ends meet. This isn’t about whether one idealized individual can deal with the hassle, it’s about the aggregate effect.


My favorite is those phone calls that tell people to vote Wednesday. The smallest bit of education or a single phone call to electoral offices on that would render it ineffective. But we have a tendency to set the bar very low in terms of what we expect people to do to ensure their registration and vote.

Next year: Republican proposals to cut the number of phone lines in electoral offices “to save money”.

136 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:47:10am

re: #120 wlewisiii

Try living on minimum wages (or less) for awhile, then come back and blat about what a cure all that is. How much does that birth certificate cost? $25 here. So much for a “Free” ID.

re: #124 sattv4u2

Yup,,, birth certif ,,, $12

SS card ,, FREE!!

wow

and btw ,,, it was $12,,, NOT $25,,, and that included Massachusetts FED EXing it to me here in Georgia

137 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:47:28am

re: #128 sattv4u2

ummm,, errr,, once you HAVE a valid ID (voter ID,,, drivers license,, etc) THEN you can request a mail in ballot

But keep moving the goal posts ,, this is fun!!

NOT

Fair enough… clearly I’m not going to change your mind so enjoy spending Several Million dollars a year per state [Link: www.southernstudies.org…] in order to wipe out a non existent problem…

Just don’t do it while claiming you support “smaller government”

138 shutdown  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:47:29am

Here’s a question: If we had 100% voter registration, would voter turnout remain at current percentage levels, or would turnout plummet. In other words, are all likely voters already registered, so that additional registered voters would not actually make any impact on elections?

139 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:47:34am

re: #134 reine.de.tout

Your first birth certificate, the one issued upon a person’s actual birth, doesn’t cost anything; except for someone to hang onto it. It’s needed to register for school and all sorts of things, so most parents have and keep these things.

sshhhhhh!!!!

140 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:48:28am

Ah, I found another reason for the counterjihad meltdown: Fjordman and Gates of Vienna have recently come out of the closet as full fledged antisemites….
When Treason Becomes The Norm: Why The Proposition Nation, Not Islam, Is Our Primary Enemy

Notice the article is cross posted at a blog called “A Jew among us” blaming Jews for the ills of the Western world. Also scroll down to the comments for the discussion of how Jewish multiculturalism is responsible of the decline of white culture.

141 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:48:50am

re: #130 Obdicut

I would say Democracy is also well served by a more accurate system, again especially in those close ones.

142 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:49:02am

re: #134 reine.de.tout

Mine was lost in a move about three years after I was born.

Pieces of paper are often kind of hard to hang on to.

143 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:49:03am

re: #137 jamesfirecat

Fair enough… clearly I’m not going to change your mind so enjoy spending Several Million dollars a year per state [Link: www.southernstudies.org…] in order to wipe out a non existent problem…

Just don’t do it while claiming you support “smaller government”

Wanting “smaller government” doesn’t mean I want “NO government”, but again, nice try!

This is something the government SHOULD be doing!

144 3eff Jeff  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:49:46am

re: #138 imp_62

I don’t have any specifics, but Democrats like dumping money into voter registration drives in the run-up to an election. I’m under the impression that they have good numbers suggesting that more registered voters means more voters. But they also run get out and vote drives as well.

145 RadicalModerate  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:49:55am

re: #58 sattv4u2

I see no reason states could not issue free ID to the poor.

As stated, here in Georgia, not only is the ID free, but they’ll come pick you up, bring you to the county office then bring you home

Not the case in Texas.

State-issued ID cards are $16 for everyone under 60 years old, and $5 for those over 60, and must be renewed every 6 year.
There are no exceptions for economic hardship.
[Link: www.dmv.org…]

“Voter ID” has already passed in Texas, with the legislature voting straight across party lines to enact it. And they voted down amendments to remove ID fees from the economically disadvantaged.

146 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:50:07am

re: #141 Rightwingconspirator

I would say Democracy is also well served by a more accurate system, again especially in those close ones.

You haven’t explained how it would be ‘more accurate’ though. There would be some legitimate voters prevented from voting. You have done nothing to show that the numbers of those who vote illegitimately are larger than the number that would be negatively affected.

And again, what you’re talking about bears no resemblance to what the GOP’s voter ID laws actually are.

147 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:50:14am

re: #142 Obdicut

Mine was lost in a move about three years after I was born.

Pieces of paper are often kind of hard to hang on to.

How much does it cost in NYC to obtain one?

As stated, Everett Mass,,, $12 and that included them sending it to me in Georgia

148 makeitstop  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:50:17am

re: #130 Obdicut

Sure. But that idea is not actually being pushed for anywhere, and not in the case we’re talking about, in Minnesotta.

Not to mention that just about any measure to make voter registration easier has met opposition, and the bulk of that opposition has come from Republicans.

Example: Motor voter. Take a look at those search results and take note of who’s opposing making voting easier.

149 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:51:04am

After all the misguided voter ID laws come to pass, conservatives will move the goal post for voting.

150 aagcobb  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:51:08am

re: #88 sattv4u2

Really?

So they better never plan to fly, or cash a check then right?

Wow, you have absolutely no idea what life is like for the extremely poor, do you? They can’t afford to either fly or have a checking account.

151 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:51:14am

re: #145 RadicalModerate

And they voted down amendments to remove ID fees from the economically disadvantaged.

And that is 100% wrong of them

152 Goosestepping Obama Tina Brown  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:51:54am

Well the solution to this dilemma is simple actually, Democrats need to start harping about voter fraud and demanding ID verification and the right wing leaders will denounce it as expensive bureaucracy and the issue can finally be dropped. Then we can get onto fixing the economy by hating gays and getting the schools to start teaching intelligent design.

///

153 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:52:06am

Let’s break this down. Right now, I’m essentially a member of the working poor.

My internship doesn’t pay me at all. I’m paying tuition and fees and gas money for the privilege of being here. I get a gas stipend of $50 every two weeks, which these days barely covers a single tank of gas. I borrowed my mom’s car until Christmas because she’s no longer driving and I had a choice — 2 hours each way on the bus to get to work, or borrow her car. Her car’s a pre-bailout Caddy, meaning the gas mileage is shit.

I drive 30 miles each way to get to work. I get about 16 miles to the gallon in the city. A tank of gas lasts me maybe 3-4 days, and that’s if I don’t do anything else but commute to and from work.

My work schedule is technically Monday through Friday from 9-5, but most days it’s actually 8:30 - 6:30. I’m required by my school to put in a minimum of 8 hours a day here at work for full credit. All of the Department of Public Safety offices in this city are open from Monday through Friday 8-5, with one day a week where they’re open until 7, but what day that is depends on the location. Because gas is expensive and money is tight, I don’t even leave the office for lunch. I bring my own food from home.

Someone please tell me when I would have the time to drive across town to the DPS offices if I had to? Also, since I don’t have a copy of my birth certificate, if I needed that, it would be an extra trip.

Go ahead. Tell me when I could go if I had to. Please. I’d love to know.

154 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:52:11am

re: #135 iossarian

There will always be people who can’t vote for their own personal reasons. I’m not wringing my hands over it. A modicum of effort or perhaps mere time planning can resolve most of that.

155 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:52:40am

re: #151 sattv4u2


And they voted down amendments to remove ID fees from the economically disadvantaged.

And that is 100% wrong of them

and that is the crux of this discussion.


natural-born citizens should just receive a chip implant, then the issue is settled. naturalized citizens get a stamp on the back of their necks.

156 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:53:52am

re: #150 aagcobb

Wow, you have absolutely no idea what life is like for the extremely poor, do you? They can’t afford to either fly or have a checking account.

You don’t need a “checking account” to cash a check

AND ,,, I was “extremely poor” many times in my life. The most recent being 15 years ago. I had a two year old, 2 months overdue on my rent, over $25K in Credit Card bills, and exaclty $125 to my name living 900 miles from the closest relative

thankyouverymuch

157 subsailor68  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:54:32am

re: #133 makeitstop

Still no link on the ‘yacht tax’ story.

Maybe I should just file that one under ‘unconfirmed anecdote.’

Hi makeitstop!

I think whoever referred to the yacht tax issue was thinking of the luxury tax included in the 1990 Omnibus bill. Here’s a quick link to what happened when it was passed:

Luxury tax.

(It’s toward the bottom.) Ted Kennedy was a major supporter of the bill.

Ironically, one of the hardest hit states was Rhode Island, represented by Patrick Kennedy, who fought to end the tax that was destroying the industry and hurting his constituents.

158 sagehen  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:54:47am

re: #69 blueraven

I cant tell you how many times I have heard this same anecdotal acct of how taxing destroyed a business. Why dont you name the city/state and link to the particulars?

Were there other factors involved? When was this?

The yachts tax, in particular, was badly written; it only applied to newly-built yachts constructed in-state — the tax should have been on any “registered here, docked here, or the owner lives here” yacht. A simple per-foot annual assessment. People who bought their yachts in another state, or in a caribbean island nation, just had to sail it around for six weeks then bring it in as “used” and suddenly they were exempt.

The Dominican Republic got some good economic development off that poorly written Florida tax. And I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that the DR has a lobbyist in Florida who took an interest in the matter.

159 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:55:13am

Here in Wisconsin, the closest we come to voter fraud is large amounts of ballots that mysteriously aren’t counted until the very end of the vote. In a heavily republican district no less.

Never stops the radio wingers from claiming democratic voter fraud EVERY FUCKING ELECTION. Except, surprise, it doesn’t exist.

160 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:55:15am

re: #147 sattv4u2

$22.30. Which is a hell of a long way from ‘free’, especially for those on a fixed income. And especially when your bank account is in the red. Or non-existent.

Poll taxes are illegal for a reason. Voter ID, unless every step in obtaining the ID is free, functions as a poll tax.

161 iossarian  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:55:51am

re: #154 Rightwingconspirator

There will always be people who can’t vote for their own personal reasons. I’m not wringing my hands over it. A modicum of effort or perhaps mere time planning can resolve most of that.

True, but the question is whether we should make it harder, or easier, to vote.

Republicans say “harder” because they know it’s to their advantage. It’s of course the opposite for the Dems.

And, as Obdicut points out, it’s by no means certain that making it harder to vote would lead to more “accuracy”, especially since we flat out KNOW that voters have been prevented from casting a legitimate vote in the past due to incorrect use of felon blacklisting.

162 shutdown  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:55:59am

re: #140 Killgore Trout

That last statement is at its core also anti-Christian. It reflects a “nordic” race-based philosophy. Ah, those aryans. They’re so predictable.

163 makeitstop  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:55:59am

re: #157 subsailor68

Hi makeitstop!

I think whoever referred to the yacht tax issue was thinking of the luxury tax included in the 1990 Omnibus bill. Here’s a quick link to what happened when it was passed:

Luxury tax.

(It’s toward the bottom.) Ted Kennedy was a major supporter of the bill.

Ironically, one of the hardest hit states was Rhode Island, represented by Patrick Kennedy, who fought to end the tax that was destroying the industry and hurting his constituents.

I stand corrected, then. Thanks for the link!

164 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:56:32am

re: #160 Obdicut

$22.30. Which is a hell of a long way from ‘free’, especially for those on a fixed income. And especially when your bank account is in the red. Or non-existent.

Poll taxes are illegal for a reason. Voter ID, unless every step in obtaining the ID is free, functions as a poll tax.

Does NY accept a combo of SS card and utility bills as ID?

Georgia, Mass and North Carolina (when I lived there) do

165 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:56:44am

re: #160 Obdicut

Voter ID without free IDs is a poll tax. Plain and simple.

166 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:57:54am

re: #146 Obdicut

You haven’t explained how it would be ‘more accurate’ though. There would be some legitimate voters prevented from voting. You have done nothing to show that the numbers of those who vote illegitimately are larger than the number that would be negatively affected.

Reducing the numbers of votes from those unqualified to do so helps accuracy by obvious definition, particularly when coupled with an ID push all year long.

And again, what you’re talking about bears no resemblance to what the GOP’s voter ID laws actually are.


Yes, I did separate my position from those laws clearly and necessarily. Sorry, I don’t take the whole conversation as limited to the actual proposals (which have varied anyway). I took an opportunity to speak for a better system that takes the interests of the populations you described and a realistic look at the consequences of election results that are too close to rely on as correct. Sometimes even after recounts.

167 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:58:05am

re: #159 Amory Blaine

Here in Wisconsin, the closest we come to voter fraud is large amounts of ballots that mysteriously aren’t counted until the very end of the vote. In a heavily republican district no less.

Never stops the radio wingers from claiming democratic voter fraud EVERY FUCKING ELECTION. Except, surprise, it doesn’t exist.

OR in Minny where Al Franken is STILL finding ballots!!

[Link: www.dailykos.com…]
/

168 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:58:28am

re: #53 sattv4u2

The question isn’t about about “voter fraud done by people without voter ids is a big issue “

The question is basic

Why NOT have an ID especially, as I stated, its free and easily obtained?

Because Americans don’t like to show their papers. We’re not freakn’ French, dammit.

169 engineer cat  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:58:32am

why argue about the details when it’s perfectly clear that the only problem with voter registration is that the GOP thinks there are too many democratic voters

170 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 11:59:02am

Where’s the proof of widespread voter fraud that is tainting American elections?

Where is it?

171 makeitstop  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:00:39pm

re: #170 Amory Blaine

Where’s the proof of widespread voter fraud that is tainting American elections?

Where is it?

ACORN!!!1ty!
/

172 shutdown  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:01:16pm

re: #163 makeitstop

I stand corrected, then. Thanks for the link!

Sorry, while the facts may be correct as quoted, this is still a tertiary source. There are too many data missing; overall context is not given, and the political “colouration” of any opinion piece makes it suspect as a factual source. I have a vague recollection of issues for boat builders following the tax increase on yachts. But who is to say that the problem was not related to the concurrent residual effects of recession (1988-1990) or other factors?

173 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:02:14pm

re: #164 sattv4u2

Does NY accept a combo of SS card and utility bills as ID?

Georgia, Mass and North Carolina (when I lived there) do

Nope.

174 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:02:51pm

re: #167 sattv4u2

The difference is again, here in Wisconsin, Republicans are on the radio 24/7 EVERY FUCKING ELECTION claiming voter fraud by democrats that doesn’t exist. Yet their own backyard has many examples of caging and other activities. But whatever, voter ID will ease your troubled mind. Until you find some other bogus charge to defend.

175 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:03:05pm

re: #170 Amory Blaine

Where’s the proof of widespread voter fraud that is tainting American elections?

Where is it?

The Bush DOJ studied the issue and found that there was no widespread voter fraud.

176 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:03:17pm

re: #168 Decatur Deb

Because Americans don’t like to show their papers. We’re not freakn’ French, dammit.

I blame Casablanca

177 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:03:27pm

re: #170 Amory Blaine

Where is the proof accepting the level of fraud that is out there is not worth reducing, or preventing from growing into a more serious level?

178 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:03:56pm

re: #175 Obdicut

Bush was a liberal.

/

179 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:04:32pm

re: #177 Rightwingconspirator

What do you mean by “more serious” because frankly, there is no serious problem now.

180 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:04:39pm

re: #173 Obdicut

It should. Solutions are available to your concerns. Which BTW I respect enough to think the ID push effort is worthwhile with or without voter ID laws.

181 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:05:49pm

re: #179 Amory Blaine

What do you mean by “more serious” because frankly, there is no serious problem now.

I meant “preventing from growing” as I said. You changed my meaning by leaving those words out.

182 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:05:54pm

re: #173 Obdicut

Nope.

Thats odd

Looks as if all you have to do is fill out this form!

[Link: www.elections.state.ny.us…]

And the only ID they ask for is

Last four digits of your Social Security number

183 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:06:14pm

re: #177 Rightwingconspirator

Where is the proof accepting the level of fraud that is out there is not worth reducing, or preventing from growing into a more serious level?

Well, the Bush DOJ really, really did conclude that there is no widespread voter fraud, and found that most cases that are technically fraud are people making innocent mistakes— voting in the wrong district. At the poll voter fraud would be the absolutely stupidest and most onerous way to attempt to influence elections, and would be very obvious if it were happening like in old-school Chicago.

You really, really have to ask the question about whether what you’re doing to prevent fraud winds up disenfranchising a larger number of voters than the number of votes it catches as fraudulent.

184 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:07:28pm

re: #173 Obdicut

Nope.

heh

If you do not have a DMV or social security number, you may use a valid photo ID, a current utility bill, bank statement, paycheck, government check or some other government document that shows your name and address. You may include a copy of one of those types of ID when you mail this form.
If we are unable to verify your identity before Election Day, you will be asked for ID when you vote for the first time.

185 aagcobb  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:08:15pm

re: #156 sattv4u2

So, were you flying a lot then?

186 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:08:45pm

I have things to do today even though I’m on vacation. So thanks to all for a challenging and engaging discussion.

( IF my new 64bit editing workstation is ready on time today I’ll be off to pick it up.) I need that little moneymaker.

BBL!

187 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:08:54pm

re: #185 aagcobb

So, were you flying a lot then?

Nope,,, but I would go to a bank and cash a check whenever I got one

thanks for playing!

188 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:09:04pm

re: #180 Rightwingconspirator

It should. Solutions are available to your concerns. Which BTW I respect enough to think the ID push effort is worthwhile with or without voter ID laws.

You think that a driver’s license should be obtainable with a utility bill and social security card, and that driver’s license should be valid ID for voting— and that will prevent voter fraud?

A driver’s license or state ID that was obtainable with documents that insecure wouldn’t really be a good barrier against fraud. The one area of fraud that is distinctly real is widespread social security fraud.

I’m all for allowing IDs based on those criteria, I’m just curious how that works out to providing protection against fraudulent voting.

189 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:09:27pm

re: #176 sattv4u2

I blame Casablanca

[Video]

Georgia might be helpful, but here’s Florida’s implementation.

[Link: election.dos.state.fl.us…]

190 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:10:32pm

re: #181 Rightwingconspirator

Prevent from growing from what? They prosecuted like maybe 6 cases of fraud(not referenced) here in Wisconsin the last presidential election.

You honestly think this isn’t a triumph of the system when a state with 4.5 million people in it has a total of 6 fraud cases prosecuted?

Whatever man.

191 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:11:13pm

re: #184 sattv4u2

You asked if it was valid for obtaining ID, not for voting.

I’m not complaining about any requirements on NYs part for ID for voting, so I have no clue what you’re talking about. I’m fine with a utility bill being used as voting ID.

Are you?

192 aagcobb  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:11:16pm

re: #168 Decatur Deb

Yes, isn’t it funny how the party of limited government has become the party of “your papers, please?”

193 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:11:52pm

re: #189 Decatur Deb

Georgia might be helpful, but here’s Florida’s implementation.

[Link: election.dos.state.fl.us…]



Fill in the Voter Registration Application online. If you wish, you can print the application and write your information in with a black ballpoint pen
.

OH NO ,,WHERE AM I GOING TO GET ONE OF THOSE!!!

//

194 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:12:09pm

re: #192 aagcobb

Not funny haha but funny strange…

195 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:12:59pm

Not to mention, Satt, you’re now talking about voter registration, not showing ID at the polls.

What you’re talking about has nothing, zero, to do with the subject.

Did you know that, or did you get confused?

196 subsailor68  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:13:13pm

re: #172 imp_62

Sorry, while the facts may be correct as quoted, this is still a tertiary source. There are too many data missing; overall context is not given, and the political “colouration” of any opinion piece makes it suspect as a factual source. I have a vague recollection of issues for boat builders following the tax increase on yachts. But who is to say that the problem was not related to the concurrent residual effects of recession (1988-1990) or other factors?

Hi imp_62!

Fair points! Just as an FYI, here’s a link to the transcript of a segment on PBS, done by Kwame Holman back in 96. If you scroll down a bit you’ll see a quote by Sen. Breaux, and he makes your point that the economy at the time didn’t help either.

197 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:13:51pm

re: #192 aagcobb

Yes, isn’t it funny how the party of limited government has become the party of “your papers, please?”

That’s because they only want limited government for themselves.

198 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:14:05pm

re: #191 Obdicut

You asked if it was valid for obtaining ID, not for voting.

I’m not complaining about any requirements on NYs part for ID for voting, so I have no clue what you’re talking about. I’m fine with a utility bill being used as voting ID.

Are you?

Thats IS NEW YORK STATE VOTER ID FORM

says it right at the top!

[Link: www.elections.state.ny.us…]

So I have no clue what you’re talking about. I asked if a Social Security card and/or a utility bill was acceptable

Your answer, and I quote, was “nope”

The form states otherwise

199 aagcobb  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:14:46pm

re: #177 Rightwingconspirator

The level of fraud is worth reducing, but voter ID laws won’t reduce it because that’s not the kind of voter fraud we actually see. What we actually see is voter intimidation, vote buying, and vote suppression efforts. Voter ID requirements have zero impact on those problems.

200 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:15:06pm

re: #199 aagcobb

Bingo.

201 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:16:51pm

re: #76 Obdicut

One up for you last paragraph. ‘Cause that’s exactly what I advocate. A coupled effort.

202 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:17:01pm

re: #198 sattv4u2


Thats IS NEW YORK STATE VOTER ID FORM

says it right at the top!

No it doesn’t, actually. It says New York State Voter Registration Form.

Are you having trouble reading?

203 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:17:07pm

re: #195 Obdicut

Not to mention, Satt, you’re now talking about voter registration, not showing ID at the polls.

What you’re talking about has nothing, zero, to do with the subject.

Did you know that, or did you get confused?

So you can register to vote with only a SS card and/ or utility bill but you can’t get a voter ID with those

204 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:18:24pm

re: #203 sattv4u2

So you can register to vote with only a SS card and/ or utility bill but you can’t get a voter ID with those

I don’t know what you mean by a ‘voter ID’. If you mean a state ID, then no, you can’t get one with just those in NY.

205 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:18:36pm

re: #191 Obdicut

You asked if it was valid for obtaining ID, not for voting.

I’m not complaining about any requirements on NYs part for ID for voting, so I have no clue what you’re talking about. I’m fine with a utility bill being used as voting ID.

Are you?

A social security card with a picture ID is sufficient to prove citizenship for employment purposes. A social security card is needed WITH the utility bill to get the ID to begin with.

A social security card is considered to be secure documentation. The utility bill is to show that you actually live in the area where you claim to be living.

206 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:19:21pm

re: #199 aagcobb

The level of fraud is worth reducing, but voter ID laws won’t reduce it because that’s not the kind of voter fraud we actually see. What we actually see is voter intimidation, vote buying, and vote suppression efforts. Voter ID requirements have zero impact on those problems.

This I can agree with.
Esp. the vote buying business (at least where I am).

207 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:20:25pm

Here’s the notorious commie League of Women Voters take on the FL law:
JIM CROW TACTICS RETURN TO FLORIDA: VOTER SUPPRESSION LAW
MOVING QUICKLY DESPITE PROTESTS
(Link takes you to a 2-page .pdf)

[Link: www.lwvfla.org…]

208 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:20:48pm

re: #205 reine.de.tout

In New York, you cannot get a state ID with just those.

Nor can you in Louisiana, it appears: you need a birth certificate or another primary document.

[Link: www.dps.state.la.us…]

209 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:22:37pm

re: #204 Obdicut

I don’t know what you mean by a ‘voter ID’. If you mean a state ID, then no, you can’t get one with just those in NY.

[Link: www.dmv.org…]

well then, we’re back to a birth certif

You can get a New York non-driver photo ID card for between $9 and $14 without taking any tests, and you don’t need an appointment. Use the ID to cash checks, open accounts, get on an airplane, buy alcohol, use your credit card, and so forth―everything but drive.

211 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:26:18pm

re: #209 sattv4u2

Yes. You need to spend the money to get the birth certificate, and then spend the money to get the ID.

Which, as I said, is effectively a poll tax, if the only purpose that person uses that ID for is for voting.

And even then, many voters will— unaccustomed to having an ID— forget to bring it, or be unaware that they need it. Why would Grandpa Moses, having voted for 70 years, really get that he suddenly needs to prove who he is at the polls?

212 shutdown  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:27:50pm

re: #196 subsailor68

Hi imp_62!

Fair points! Just as an FYI, here’s a link to the transcript of a segment on PBS, done by Kwame Holman back in 96. If you scroll down a bit you’ll see a quote by Sen. Breaux, and he makes your point that the economy at the time didn’t help either.

Thanks for the research, but the link did not show up!

213 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:29:20pm

re: #211 Obdicut

the only purpose that person uses that ID for is for voting.

But it’s not

You need one to cash a check, use a credit card, buy alcohol, get on a plane, so I find it a specious argument

AND,, as stated (too many times) I believe Georgia does it right, where the ID itself is free

214 subsailor68  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:29:39pm

re: #212 imp_62

Thanks for the research, but the link did not show up!

Oops! Real smart subsailor68. Sorry about that!

NewsHour Transcript

215 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:30:10pm

re: #213 sattv4u2

Flying a plane and cashing checks aren’t guaranteed by the constitution.

216 sagehen  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:30:40pm

re: #191 Obdicut

You asked if it was valid for obtaining ID, not for voting.

I’m not complaining about any requirements on NYs part for ID for voting, so I have no clue what you’re talking about. I’m fine with a utility bill being used as voting ID.

Are you?

When I moved to NY, I did my voter registration by mail. Didn’t to show anything (good thing, the only ID I had at the time was a CA driver’s license).

The ID I used the first time I voted here was the doorman to say “yeah, that’s her”.

217 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:31:10pm

re: #215 Amory Blaine

Flying a plane and cashing checks aren’t guaranteed by the constitution.

wow ,, I’ve seen moving goalposts before ,, but you just moved the STADIUM!!

218 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:33:04pm

How is it moving the goal post? All those activities you described are not guaranteed by the Constitution but voting is.

219 Spocomptonite  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:34:27pm

re: #153 Lidane

Why don’t you just get a job that pays more for less hours? duh.

///

220 Spocomptonite  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:35:57pm

re: #219 Spocomptonite

Why don’t you just get a job that pays more for less hours? duh.

///

Hmm, looks like I screwed up the wingnut text. That was supposed to be in pink comic sans. Sorry all, that comment was in massive wingnutty jest.

221 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:36:37pm

Voter suppression in action:

Florida League to Halt Voter Registration Under New Law


[Link: www.wusf.usf.edu…]

222 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:36:42pm

re: #220 Spocomptonite

Hmm, looks like I screwed up the wingnut text. That was supposed to be in pink comic sans. Sorry all, that comment was in massive wingnutty jest.

Heh, no worries. The sarc tags were enough. :)

223 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:37:30pm

re: #218 Amory Blaine

How is it moving the goal post? All those activities you described are not guaranteed by the Constitution but voting is.

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.

hmmm,, so how does a poll worker know if the person coming in is 17 or over 18?

224 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:40:28pm

re: #223 sattv4u2

Voter registration.

225 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:41:13pm

re: #45 jamesfirecat

The problem with taking a similar situation with voting is that it’s been shown that statistically those people who can vote but don’t have ID are statistically more likely to vote Democrats.

It’s not about stopping Voter Fraud Hiker, it’s about trying to stack the deck.

Are there statistics on how many people don’t have, and would not get, voter ID no matter how smooth their path was made? Could not Democrats, or for that matter Republicans, get some volunteers together and try and persuade those who don’t have such ID to lift their finger and ask for it?

How would there ever be statistics on people who cannot legally vote but vote anyhow because the door has not been locked? There might be statistics on how many votes were cast by people who were dead months before they cast their ballot.

That there might be a problem is evident:

Human Events reports

As former Voting Section prosecutor J. Christian Adams testified under oath July 6 before the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, he attended a November 2009 meeting in which Deputy Assistant Attorney General Julie Fernandes discussed the federal law that requires that local officials purge illegitimate names from their voter rolls. Adams swore that Fernandes told Voting Section prosecutors: “We have no interest in enforcing this provision of the law. It has nothing to do with increasing turnout, and we are just not going to do it.”

And in fact, the dead do remain on voter rolls in many instances.


The U.S. Election Assistance Commission reports that Arkansas, Colorado, Maryland, Massachusetts, Oregon, and Tennessee expunged precisely zero dead voters from their rolls between 2006 and 2008. The same applies to numerous counties in Alabama, Rhode Island, and Virginia. Either these places are experiencing an explosion in immortality, or they are violating federal law.

In the light of these facts, it seems reasonable to conclude that the door against voter fraud is hardly locked already.

226 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:44:36pm

re: #224 Amory Blaine

Voter registration.

I see

And how does the registrar verify that the applicant is 18 or over?

227 Spocomptonite  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:45:02pm

re: #222 Lidane

Heh, no worries. The sarc tags were enough. :)

I almost didn’t add those… and then immediately forgot I had added them when I wrote the next comment. Scatterbrained!

In all seriousness, though, before I was decreed medically unable to work, I was working 60+ hours weeks. If I had to get any kind of simple errand done, I had to plan it out like a week in advance. It took me 5 months to get my driver’s license updated with my new address. And I was making good money, so I had it easy. Combine that workload with little money or a physical inability to get around/to town very well, and these simple things like getting ID’s or registering is tantamount to the difficulties of trying to go on a week-long international vacation for people who just can’t relate to life being more difficult than theirs.

228 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:47:50pm

[Link: gab.wi.gov…]

Note PROOF OF RESIDENCE section.

229 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:48:01pm

re: #211 Obdicut

Yes. You need to spend the money to get the birth certificate, and then spend the money to get the ID.

Which, as I said, is effectively a poll tax, if the only purpose that person uses that ID for is for voting.

And even then, many voters will— unaccustomed to having an ID— forget to bring it, or be unaware that they need it. Why would Grandpa Moses, having voted for 70 years, really get that he suddenly needs to prove who he is at the polls?

If a birth certificate is to be required for voting, then the law should provide that the voter can ask for a single-purpose copy of the certificate, valid only for establishing voting rights, be provided to the state, and the state pays for it.

As to lost ID, the beauty of photo ID in the internet age is that when the state issues it, it can keep its own copy and host its digital version on its own servers. Anyone showing up and asking to vote can be asked, may we search our records for your ID? And if the voter can remember his or her name, that will suffice. The ID will pop up, the official can look if the photo matches the person physically present and wanting to vote, and there we go.

There are ways to meet the objections liberals are raising. Some of these are valid, and they should be addressed. No voter security law should be crafted in such a way as to serve a second agenda of suppressing votes that would have been legal.

230 makeitstop  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:48:43pm

re: #226 sattv4u2

I see

And how does the registrar verify that the applicant is 18 or over?

Don’t you get tired of running in circles after a while?

231 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:52:01pm

re: #229 lostlakehiker

No voter security law should be crafted in such a way as to serve a second agenda of suppressing votes that would have been legal.

Except that most of them are crafted that way. That’s the problem.

232 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:52:04pm

re: #213 sattv4u2


the only purpose that person uses that ID for is for voting.

But it’s not

You need one to cash a check, use a credit card, buy alcohol, get on a plane, so I find it a specious argument

Except that individual was getting along just fine without the ID beforehand. He might not cash checks, use a credit card, or buy alcohol. Or he might be 70, and nobody’s going to card him.

233 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:54:07pm

re: #229 lostlakehiker

If a birth certificate is to be required for voting, then the law should provide that the voter can ask for a single-purpose copy of the certificate, valid only for establishing voting rights, be provided to the state, and the state pays for it.

Great. Let me know when that happens.


As to lost ID, the beauty of photo ID in the internet age is that when the state issues it, it can keep its own copy and host its digital version on its own servers. Anyone showing up and asking to vote can be asked, may we search our records for your ID? And if the voter can remember his or her name, that will suffice. The ID will pop up, the official can look if the photo matches the person physically present and wanting to vote, and there we go.

Er, so now the officials have a live link to an online database, and monitors? Sounds expensive and error-prone. Not to mention such a system would be simultaneously being accessed by large numbers of people at once.

There are ways to meet the objections liberals are raising. Some of these are valid, and they should be addressed. No voter security law should be crafted in such a way as to serve a second agenda of suppressing votes that would have been legal.

Great. So let us know when any law actually addresses these concerns.

Until then, we’ll call it what it is: GOP attempts at voter suppression.

234 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:54:42pm

re: #230 makeitstop

Don’t you get tired of running in circles after a while?

Dodge ball answers beget follow up questions

235 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:57:07pm

re: #43 lostlakehiker

Raising taxes on persons making over $1M a year might, arguably, hurt the economy. It would depend on how high the taxes were raised, and whether the effect of that increase would be to prompt enough of those high earners to pull up stakes and move to another state.


Myself, I don’t buy that. I don’t see them raising the taxes to 90% or anything close, might go from 35% to 39%. I would guess they have a house in the state so they would have to sell it in this market and try to buy another somewhere else. If they didn’t sell the house right away or reasonably quickly they would have to carry the house and taxes there and the new house and taxes where ever they flee to avoid this tax increase. I doubt it would save them any money, and probably cost them more money for at least the foreseeable future.

This isn’t an altogether theoretical worry. There was a state on the East coast that imposed a tax on yachts. Yacht owners are rich, right? They can afford the tax, and the money that would come from it would benefit everybody.


I don’t think the “simple” millionaires buy many yachts. Maybe multi-millionaires/billionaires do, but not someone that is only worth 1 - 1.5 or so million.


State taxes exist in a context of other states. If you’re getting a lot of money as it is from one cohort of your taxpayers, it’s wise to consider the likely result of a tax bill, rather than just assume that the people in line for more taxation will happily pony up.

Never said they would pony up happily. The people that are getting their benifits cut or pulled aren’t happy either, but it is “fuck them” I guess. But we gotta keep the rich bastards happy. My feeling on that is “Fuck them”, feel the pain too.


People not having to show ID at the polls wouldn’t have any direct adverse impact on the economy. On the other hand, we lock our cars. We lock our houses. We don’t leave the cars there for just anybody to drive off with if they feel like it. What’s the harm in taking similar precautions with voting?

Here in PA the first time you vote in a precinct you have to have some form of ID. After that it is just your signature, or possibly (if you haven’t been in in awhile) your card the election office sends you. Why make a special hardship for people to find a way to get a photo ID (if they don’t drive, which probably is mostly poorer people). I see that section as just being real petty.

236 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:58:49pm

re: #234 sattv4u2

My favorite part was when you said, so earnestly “Thats IS NEW YORK STATE VOTER ID FORM, says it right at the top!”

And it didn’t say that at the top.

How’d that happen again?

Comedy gold.

237 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:59:16pm

re: #225 lostlakehiker

Downding for using Human Events as a source, as though they had any credibility.

238 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:08:35pm

re: #232 Obdicut

Except that individual was getting along just fine without the ID beforehand. He might not cash checks, use a credit card, or buy alcohol. Or he might be 70, and nobody’s going to card him.

So all those people without ID have never cashing a check, using a credit card, or buying a beer

AND ,, many states card (for booze) regardless of age

Indiana,,if you “appear to be under 40”
Georgia ,, EVERYONE gets carded

Go to ANY sports venue..EVERYONE gets carded

And whats “comedy gold” is this Kabuki dance everyone is doing for someone 18-99 to get a state issued PHOTO ID!

239 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:09:51pm

BBIAB

240 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:11:03pm

re: #238 sattv4u2

So all those people without ID have never cashing a check, using a credit card, or buying a beer

Yeah. Or they may have gotten a credit card awhile ago— or have one sent in the mail.

I don’t know why this is astonishing to you to believe. These people already operate without ID. If they already had ID, there wouldn’t be a problem. Yet, somehow, you’re baffled by this.

And whats “comedy gold” is this Kabuki dance everyone is doing for someone 18-99 to get a state issued PHOTO ID!

Nobody’s doing such a dance. What’d being done is the GOP is attempting voter suppression by requiring ID at the polls.

We kind of covered this already.

241 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:19:19pm

re: #100 sattv4u2


open those state offices on the weekends and after standard 8-5 office hours
,

[Link: www.dds.ga.gov…]

Georgia

Tuesday - Friday 7:30 - 6:30
Saturday 7:30 am - 12 noon

Jebus Christ, everyone doesn’t live in Georgia. Everyone doesn’t live in an area that even has public transportation, or even a fucking taxi service. Come out here to rural PA, it’s 20 miles to the nearest taxi service and no bus service (except for the elderly) in 40 miles. Get it through your skull, it isn’t as fucking easy as you seem to want everyone to bow to. My middle boy starts work at 5:30 in the morning, gets off that job at 2:30 in the afternoon, then rushes to get to his second job by 3:30, which he gets off from at around 9:00 at night. First job 6 days a week, second job 5 days a week. Not much time in there, and take time off and lose pay for this (a cost). Don’t say it doesn’t cost or is easy.

You are making me think more and more that your mother must have felt much pain at your birth from the silver spoon you had in your mouth.

242 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:20:06pm

re: #208 Obdicut

In New York, you cannot get a state ID with just those.

Nor can you in Louisiana, it appears: you need a birth certificate or another primary document.

[Link: www.dps.state.la.us…]

Correct. In Louisiana, a birth certificate is needed - long form or short form ($10).

243 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:24:14pm

re: #110 sattv4u2

Wow ,, and if they only went and got a FREE STATE ID, think of how much they would save!!

:)

Yeah, they could open a bank account with their non-existent left over pay after paying their bills and over taxed goods. If no bank account, no bank cashes your check. Back to the check cashing ripoff place.

Can you see the circle starting to take form here silver spoon.

244 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:25:26pm

re: #238 sattv4u2

Right. Because it’s always easy. I mean, it’s not like laws are passed to add restrictions on getting an ID, or anything.

And of course, people have all the free time in the world to go down to the DMV and wait around for hours to finally get a card. And they all have all the needed paperwork on them at all times, and couldn’t possibly have to take time out of their day to get those too.

Nope. We’re all just lying to you about the very real issues at hand. *eyeroll*

245 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:38:27pm

re: #153 Lidane

Let’s break this down. Right now, I’m essentially a member of the working poor.

My internship doesn’t pay me at all. I’m paying tuition and fees and gas money for the privilege of being here. I get a gas stipend of $50 every two weeks, which these days barely covers a single tank of gas. I borrowed my mom’s car until Christmas because she’s no longer driving and I had a choice — 2 hours each way on the bus to get to work, or borrow her car. Her car’s a pre-bailout Caddy, meaning the gas mileage is shit.

I drive 30 miles each way to get to work. I get about 16 miles to the gallon in the city. A tank of gas lasts me maybe 3-4 days, and that’s if I don’t do anything else but commute to and from work.

My work schedule is technically Monday through Friday from 9-5, but most days it’s actually 8:30 - 6:30. I’m required by my school to put in a minimum of 8 hours a day here at work for full credit. All of the Department of Public Safety offices in this city are open from Monday through Friday 8-5, with one day a week where they’re open until 7, but what day that is depends on the location. Because gas is expensive and money is tight, I don’t even leave the office for lunch. I bring my own food from home.

Someone please tell me when I would have the time to drive across town to the DPS offices if I had to? Also, since I don’t have a copy of my birth certificate, if I needed that, it would be an extra trip.

Go ahead. Tell me when I could go if I had to. Please. I’d love to know.

You’ve got a DL. That should suffice.

Plus, you’ve got internet connections. The hassle factor for getting the required ID should be kept to a minimum and scanning documents etc. should help there. The cost ought to be effectively zero: maybe a nominal cost for those who had a federal income tax liability last year, and nothing for those who didn’t.

246 Lidane  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:44:04pm

re: #245 lostlakehiker

You’ve got a DL. That should suffice.

Plus, you’ve got internet connections. The hassle factor for getting the required ID should be kept to a minimum and scanning documents etc. should help there. The cost ought to be effectively zero: maybe a nominal cost for those who had a federal income tax liability last year, and nothing for those who didn’t.

Not. The. Point.

Take my situation and substitute a person without a car, whose only internet comes from their pay-as-you-go cell phone, and with a low-wage job and an asshole boss who demands that they be there for their entire shift at work unless they’re in the hospital or bleeding.

It’s not that uncommon. And it is a problem when you’re expected to have an ID for things, and the only time the DMV is open is while you’re at work, and all the extra documents you need are separate trips in themselves.

247 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:47:29pm

re: #245 lostlakehiker

The cost ought to be effectively zero: maybe a nominal cost for those who had a federal income tax liability last year, and nothing for those who didn’t.

Again: Let us know when that’s proposed by someone. And make sure it applies to people who don’t have a car and who don’t have broadband internet.

248 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:52:09pm

re: #207 Decatur Deb

Here’s the notorious commie League of Women Voters take on the FL law:
JIM CROW TACTICS RETURN TO FLORIDA: VOTER SUPPRESSION LAW
MOVING QUICKLY DESPITE PROTESTS
(Link takes you to a 2-page .pdf)

[Link: www.lwvfla.org…]

IN passed a voter ID law that has withstood a supreme court challenge by a 6-3 vote. If you can’t afford an ID the state supplies you with one. In addition, if you don’t have an ID when you show up to the polls you can fill out a provisional ballot and then you have 10 days to get to the courthouse and show some form of identification.

In order to to any business at all with the state, which includes applying for any type of assistance, you have to show an ID. If people believe it’s a violation of a persons rights to have to show an ID to vote how is it not a violation of their rights to provide an ID to apply for assistance? or to apply for cable, or to buy cigarettes or alcohol, etc…

249 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:55:52pm

re: #248 RogueOne

IN passed a voter ID law that has withstood a supreme court challenge by a 6-3 vote. If you can’t afford an ID the state supplies you with one. In addition, if you don’t have an ID when you show up to the polls you can fill out a provisional ballot and then you have 10 days to get to the courthouse and show some form of identification.

In order to to any business at all with the state, which includes applying for any type of assistance, you have to show an ID. If people believe it’s a violation of a persons rights to have to show an ID to vote how is it not a violation of their rights to provide an ID to apply for assistance? or to apply for cable, or to buy cigarettes or alcohol, etc…

A requirement like that, and perhaps the GA rules Sattv cites make for an arguable (but distasteful) case. The crap being done elsewhere (FL) is naked disenfranchisement.

250 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 1:56:59pm

re: #248 RogueOne

Do you think it’s a violation of someone’s rights to stop them, if they are a legitimate voter, from voting?

251 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 2:02:17pm

re: #250 Obdicut

Do you think it’s a violation of someone’s rights to stop them, if they are a legitimate voter, from voting?

Absolutely not but how are they going to prove they’re a legitimate voter without an ID?

252 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 2:03:43pm

re: #251 RogueOne

Absolutely not but how are they going to prove they’re a legitimate voter without an ID?

Yeah, you didn’t get the question.

Never mind. Try rereading the thread.

Doubt it’ll do you much good.

There is no actual problem. There is no voter fraud. Requiring ID provably disenfranchises some people, and gives no benefit.

Repeat.

253 jvic  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 2:07:00pm

1. re: #215 Amory Blaine

Flying a plane and cashing checks aren’t guaranteed by the constitution.

I hadn’t looked at it that way and I’m going to have to think about your point.

2. Personally I am willing to bring ID to the polls but I (am coming to) recognize that there legitimate arguments on both sides of the issue, including the not so small matter of unintended consequences.

3. I am of course shocked, shocked that a political party would try to suppress discourage the opposing party’s voters. ;-)

I also note that a system which allows unqualified people to cast ballots suppresses dilutes the value of my vote.

4. The government should be proactive about maintaining its legitimacy. Even if no major election to date has been decided by illegal votes, it doesn’t mean we should assume that can never happen.

5. The winner-take-all styles of both parties about this and other issues (what do abortion restrictions have to do with the MN budget?) invite trouble.

254 DeepBlue  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 2:09:13pm

Notice how this thread about MN budget shutdown got hijacked by the idea of Voter ID which while possibly not the worst idea in the world,
has nothing to do with the budget issue
, is not really stopping anything
(as there has been minimal to zero voter fraud)
& in fact voter disenfranchisement is a much bigger problem.
and is so obviously an attempt to disenfranchise a party of voters.
Very similar to abortion-criminalization attempts…
While not making it illegal, make every possible difficulty to have or provide abortions and reproductive services.
I really really hope that these blatant partisan power-grabs bite them on the AS5.

255 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 2:11:02pm

re: #246 Lidane

Not. The. Point.

Take my situation and substitute a person without a car, whose only internet comes from their pay-as-you-go cell phone, and with a low-wage job and an asshole boss who demands that they be there for their entire shift at work unless they’re in the hospital or bleeding.

It’s not that uncommon. And it is a problem when you’re expected to have an ID for things, and the only time the DMV is open is while you’re at work, and all the extra documents you need are separate trips in themselves.

This is a problem. The difficulties these guys face in getting the kind of documents most everybody already has are real. The state that wants to require photo ID ought to take these difficulties into account and smooth the path of those who need the ID.

In the case you describe, the guy’s got a valid Social and he’s got a job and an address. There’s got to be a way to shift the hassle onto the state, since they’re the ones who want to require the photo ID.

Democrats could offer amendments to voter ID bills, designed to do just that. If Republicans fight the amendments, that becomes evidence of bad faith and can be used to defeat the bill itself. If Republicans accept the amendments, then the problem has been addressed and getting voter ID is pretty painless.

If there is no ID needed to vote, what DO we do about people who live in Missouri, and work in Kansas City KS, and decide to vote in KS as well as, or instead of, in MO, just because the election is closer in KS or the questions on the ballot are nearer their heart?

There has to be a way to make getting voter ID easy [unless the person wanting it already has another ID or isn’t a citizen or some other disqualifying thing].

256 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 2:17:20pm

re: #252 Obdicut

20 states have voter ID laws, can you provide the name of anyone who has been “disenfranchised” or had their voting rights revoked for lack of an ID? This site lists 3 incidents where some were, the only problem is 2 of those incidents happened in IN and aren’t accurate which makes me question the 3rd.
[Link: www.civilrights.org…]

257 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 2:17:20pm

re: #250 Obdicut

Do you think it’s a violation of someone’s rights to stop them, if they are a legitimate voter, from voting?

I can be stopped from driving, even if I’m a legitimate driver, if I don’t have my DL on me. But I suppose you’re asking if it’s a violation of someone’s rights to prevent them from voting or to throw obstacles in their path that grind them down and discourage them from voting.

Of course that’s a violation of their rights.

Voting should be smooth and easy for legitimate voters. Forgetting your ID should be easily papered over with some sort of provisional ballot or on-the-spot retrieval of the digital version of the ID.

Some of the photo ID bills described on these pages do a better job of this than others, and some do an unacceptably poor job of making it easy. Poor enough that one might be forgiven the suspicion that the idea was to make it hard. I’m against that sort of voter ID law.

258 RogueOne  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 2:21:40pm

re: #257 lostlakehiker

I’m actually against it, in principle, but the overwrought cries of “disenfranchisement” just don’t ring true any more than the fear of stolen elections due to individual voter fraud. OTOH, the state has the right to force me to use an ID to vote just like they have the right to keep me from texting while I drive. I may not like it but those are the rules we live under.

259 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 3:02:59pm

re: #253 jvic

1.

I hadn’t looked at it that way and I’m going to have to think about your point.

2. Personally I …snip.

Get aold of yourself man—we can’t have that kind of talk here. This is the Intertubes.

260 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 6:44:09pm

re: #258 RogueOne

Check out the Brennan Center for Justice sometime.

Make a minimal effort.

261 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 6:45:15pm

re: #257 lostlakehiker

It’s really, really obvious that the purpose for most of these bills is to make voting hard. One of the ways this is obvious is that there is no actual problem to be addressed by these bills.

262 wheat-dogghazi  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 7:37:42pm

re: #98 Ericus58

I’ve lost track of how many certified & embossed copies of my NYS birth certificate I’ve had to pay for over the years. Some agencies will glance at what you’ve got, and let you keep it. Others take the certificate and never give it back. Who knows where it goes from there. Some agencies are OK with personal photocopies of the original, some want certified photocopies, and still others want a brand new embossed certificate.

My point is maybe some people had at one time a copy of their birth cert., but there’s no guarantee they’ll always have one handy to whip out at a moment’s notice. And a lot of people, rich or poor, are pretty disorganized. It wasn’t until I had kids that I decided to keep all those important papers in one, easy-to-access place.

When I registered to vote in Kentucky some years ago, I was given a voter ID card, just a cheap paper thing I could keep in my wallet. When I went to the polls, I could either tell the election worker my name or show the ID card. Only once was I asked to whip out my driver’s license.

Australia requires people over 18 to vote. I just spent a few mins checking how they handle ID issues. It’s about the same as it is here. There is no national ID in Oz (yet). When you enrol to be a voter (also mandatory), you show your photo ID, driver’s license or government issued picture ID card. There are provisions for homeless people with no addresses, so they are not disenfranchised. Your name goes on the national voters’ register. When it’s time to vote, you show your ID (if requested) and they check your name against the register. I have not investigated further to see if Ozzies complain about voter fraud. There are some who resist a national ID system, just as there are here, though.

Back in the US, consider this point. Many of the same legislatures who will require voter IDs also want to reduce the public employee rolls. So, while they are requiring more people to visit govt offices, they’re simultaneously trying to reduce the workers at those offices. Conceivably, it could be even less convenient to obtain your mandatory voter ID (shorter office hours, longer lines, etc.) in the future. Certainly true in Minnesota right now …

My beef with voter ID bills is that they make voting harder for some people, not easier. A representative democracy ought to encourage everyone to vote by making it easy to do so. After all, it’s the basis of our form of government. Having a driver’s license or a picture ID/SS card/birth cert/utility bill/ etc. should be sufficient proof you are eligible to vote, if you are already on the voter registration list. The current systems seem to work 95% of the time.

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Small government and all that…

263 RogueOne  Sat, Jul 2, 2011 4:55:10am

re: #260 Obdicut

Check out the Brennan Center for Justice sometime.

Make a minimal effort.

In other words you don’t have any evidence to back up your analysis other than your gut. You should make the effort to learn to separate out your feelings from the reality.

Why didn’t you answer any of my questions? Quit ducking. Produce someone who has had their rights stomped on by any of these voter ID laws. Explain why it’s a violation of peoples rights to have to produce ID to vote but not a violation of their rights to have to produce ID in order to receive state assistance.

264 lostlakehiker  Sat, Jul 2, 2011 6:46:22am

re: #67 Obdicut

The harm is that it disenfranchises voters, mostly students, minorities, and the elderly. You know that, of course.

The only thing a properly crafted voter ID law does, in the way of disenfranchising people, is to make real and effective the laws already on paper that forbid double voting, voting by non-citizens, voting in the name of a dead person, and so forth.

I give you the examples of Georgia and Texas.

Your constant method, in debate, is to insinuate bad motive and hidden purpose on the part of the other side. Here’s how that would look, if I took up that habit:

{I’m guessing you object to those laws too, and to any other law, however crafted and however carefully implemented, that would obstruct the kinds of hijinks documented in, say, Wisconsin, where by their own report, some students voted up to ten times.}

But I don’t actually know what your real objections are. We’ll see, when you state your position on the Georgia voter ID law.

265 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sat, Jul 2, 2011 9:52:27am

re: #264 lostlakehiker

The only thing a properly crafted voter ID law does, in the way of disenfranchising people, is to make real and effective the laws already on paper that forbid double voting, voting by non-citizens, voting in the name of a dead person, and so forth.

There aren’t any properly crafted voter ID laws. The Georgia one fails because it still, in the end, requires a photo ID that does cost money to obtain— not the actual charge for the ID, but the charge for the documents to obtain the ID. It’s good that it has absentee voting without any restriction (thus, of course, making the voter ID law abso-fucking-lutely pointless in terms of preventing vote fraud) but unless everyone is aware of that, it’s not sufficient.

The people who are disenfranchised by this law are those who, on the day of voting, do not have a voter ID and cannot obtain one within 48 hours. Anyone who loses their ID within the space of time before the election has their vote disenfranchised.

This number may be low. It isn’t ‘nobody’.

It is really fucking bizarre to me that ‘conservatives’ want the government to enact a policy to fix a problem that doesn’t exist, that extends government power and makes an extra hoop through citizens to jump through.

I am a big fan of the government not trying to fix imaginary problems.

266 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sat, Jul 2, 2011 10:36:16am

re: #263 RogueOne

Okay. My friend Mark Walters, who lives in Indiana, was unable to vote in the last election because he didn’t have an ID.

Now, for a more thorough analysis, read this:

[Link: brennan.3cdn.net…]

I find it really funny that you’re accusing me of talking about this from my ‘gut’ when you clearly haven’t read anything on the issue or given it much thought at all.

There is no-one, aside from you, who claims that nobody is disenfranchised by these laws. In Indiana, the lawyers testifying for for the ID law said that it would be less than 25,000 that were disenfranchised. Not nobody.

267 funky chicken  Sat, Jul 2, 2011 9:39:59pm

So tax increases are fine as long as abortion gets banned? Nice set of principles you guys have there.


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