American Family Association Radio: Gay Marriage is a Sign of the End Times

With bonus lies about the founding fathers
Wingnuts • Views: 36,547

Bryan Fischer of the American Family Association is not the only one in that religious right organization with some screws loose. Here’s the AFA’s Alex McFarland interviewing preacher Marvin Sanders, who warns that same sex marriage is a sign of the End Times, and that the nation needs a Christian theocracy more than ever.

As always, we should point out that the American Family Association is no fringe group of snake-handlers; they’re highly connected in Republican politics, and they are one of the co-sponsors of Texas Governor Rick Perry’s “The Response” prayer rally.

Youtube Video

At about 23 seconds into the video, Sanders makes an outrageously misleading claim about Thomas Jefferson; he says that as Governor of Virginia, Jefferson “called a statewide day of prayer.”

This is one of the tenets of the pseudo-history now being taught to home-schooled evangelicals; here’s the real-world history of that “day of prayer:” Day of Thanksgiving and Prayer « Thomas Jefferson’s Monticello.

While Jefferson was Governor of Virginia, the Continental Congress sent a circular to the state executives recommending a day of public thanksgiving.[1] Jefferson sent the circular to the Virginia House of Delegates which wrote out the actual proclamation and sent it for his signature.[2] Jefferson signed this proclamation for a day of “Thanksgiving and Prayer” to be held on December 9, 1779. It must be remembered that the governor of Virginia at this time was a relatively weak office. The General Assembly formulated policy, not the governor. This proclamation did not establish a permanent annual observance.

So Jefferson did not “call for” a day of prayer at all; he simply passed on a circular from the Continental Congress to the House of Delegates. The House wrote the proclamation, and Jefferson signed it. As the article points out, the Governorship at that time was less powerful than the House of Delegates.

But does this mean Jefferson was in favor of “national days of prayer?” Not at all. In the real world, Thomas Jefferson made his opposition clear (and so did James Madison):

Thomas Jefferson, in an 1808 letter to the Reverend Samuel Miller, wrote “”Fasting and prayer are religious exercises; the enjoining them an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the time for these exercises, and the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; and right can never be safer than in their hands, where the Constitution has deposited it.” (3a) In James Madison’s 1817 Detached Memoranda, he expressed doubts about national days of prayer, as “they seem to imply and certainly nourish the erroneous idea of a national religion.”

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342 comments
1 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 12:59:16pm

Its always insanely hard to actually watch these >>

2 Kragar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 12:59:16pm

Actual history is not a strong point for people used to reading only one book.

3 Lidane  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 12:59:47pm

This is what happens when you base your entire worldview on the writings of primitive Bronze Age shepherds and early Iron Age clergy.

The AFA is delusional, as always.

4 BongCrodny  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:00:38pm

If gay marriage is a sign of the End Times, and the End Times are supposed to bring Jesus back, shouldn't these guys be supporting gay marriage?

Don't ever invite religion and logic to the same dinner party.

5 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:01:12pm

re: #3 Lidane

heh, careful what you say, plenty of people around that do that ;)

6 mikec6666  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:01:13pm

I wonder if they can change their institutional motto to: Cras cursus turpis sit in via (Never let facts get in the way).

7 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:01:49pm

re: #4 BongCrodny

If gay marriage is a sign of the End Times, and the End Times are supposed to bring Jesus back, shouldn't these guys be supporting gay marriage?

Don't ever invite religion and logic to the same dinner party.

I am in love with this idea. The Dominionist-zionist position on gay marriage!

8 Kragar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:01:49pm

re: #3 Lidane

This is what happens when you base your entire worldview on the writings of primitive Bronze Age shepherds and early Iron Age clergy.

The AFA is delusional, as always.

Its almost like you're saying that the final truth for human existence was not given to a bunch of guys tending sheep in the desert 3000 years ago.
/

9 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:02:34pm

END TIMES BITCHES

we are shutting this universe down, we are ending the fucking simulation

we are cashing in your chips, we are eating your lunch, we have your source code, we are shutting down the servers marked "Earth"

The Armageddon Key is in the hands of Dan Savage, and he's unlocking the final door

veils? tossed aside

Rivers? blood

skies? frogs

dogs and cats? in unwholesome congress

10 engineer cat  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:02:36pm

it's a sign of the beginning of the end times for the times of prejudice, fear, and ignorance

so one might dare to hope, anyway...

11 Lidane  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:02:40pm

re: #5 windsagio

heh, careful what you say, plenty of people around that do that ;)

I'm not saying that belief itself is bad. However, the delusional nutjobs of the AFA and the people who agree with them don't do Christians any favors.

12 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:03:21pm

re: #7 windsagio

I am in love with this idea. The Dominionist-zionist position on gay marriage!

It's like a snake eating its own tail in four dimensions, hah

13 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:03:40pm

re: #11 Lidane

oh I know believe me (forgive bad play on words), the problem is the hardcore fundamentalism.

14 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:04:09pm

re: #9 WindUpBird

15 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:04:13pm

WUB, did you see the quote from TSA I put for you on the last thread?

16 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:04:43pm

re: #15 windsagio

look naow

17 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:05:17pm

re: #14 lawhawk

yes :D

HE PERFORMED A LOT OF UNNECCESSARY SURGERIES

18 Lidane  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:05:30pm

re: #13 windsagio

oh I know believe me (forgive bad play on words), the problem is the hardcore fundamentalism.

Yeah, it's the humorless twats with no imagination no critical thinking skills that ruin it for everyone else.

19 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:06:08pm

re: #12 WindUpBird

Show me the Armageddon Key. (skip to 4:20)

20 BongCrodny  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:08:27pm

re: #9 WindUpBird


The Armageddon Key is in the hands of Dan Savage, and he's unlocking the final door


I'm okay with this, as long as it doesn't rain santorum for 40 days and nights.

21 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:09:17pm

re: #10 engineer dog

it's a sign of the beginning of the end times for the times of prejudice, fear, and ignorance

so one might dare to hope, anyway...

in all seriousness, I think we'll start seeing massive swings between states, as some states embrace gay marriage and just make the decision to move forward, and some districts start electing naked bigots as reps to respond to the encroaching monstrosity that is people being treated equal under the law

you get enough angry and frightened and not-very-bright people who think they sky man will blow up America because of the queers, and they can certainly get protest candidates into congress


We haven't seen nothing yet, there will be so-con reps in the next ten years that'll make Bachmann look moderate

22 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:10:42pm

re: #20 BongCrodny

I'm okay with this, as long as it doesn't rain santorum for 40 days and nights.

That would mean GWAR was in charge

23 brennant  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:16:32pm

re: #9 WindUpBird

dogs and cats? in unwholesome congress

Dogs and cats, living together. Mass hysteria!

/

24 BongCrodny  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:17:28pm

re: #22 WindUpBird

That would mean GWAR was in charge


I always thought GWAR got its name from Watchmen, with its Gay Women Against Rape posters.

The Gwaaarrrgghhlllgh thing is much more fun?

25 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:17:51pm

re: #23 brennant

Dogs and cats, living together. Mass hysteria!

/

We already have the unwholesome Congress. We just need to change the laws and start electing domestic pets as representatives.

(I have already met a dog that was the mayor of a small town in Wyoming.)

26 Kragar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:22:52pm

re: #24 BongCrodny

I always thought GWAR got its name from Watchmen, with its Gay Women Against Rape posters.

The Gwaaarrrgghhlllgh thing is much more fun?

Different GWAR

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:25:27pm

re: #25 oaktree

We already have the unwholesome Congress. We just need to change the laws and start electing domestic pets as representatives.

(I have already met a dog that was the mayor of a small town in Wyoming.)

How was she doing in the role?

28 engineer cat  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:25:41pm

why discuss serious issues of economic and social justice when you can direct all of your anger at the person at the center of the latest murder trial?

29 Kragar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:26:35pm

'ISI ordered scribe's killing to stop terror nexus revelations'


The United States, signalling a precipitous falling out with Pakistan's military establishment, has accused the country's intelligence agency ISI of ordering the killing of a prominent journalist who consistently exposed the military-jihadi nexus in Pakistan.

The startling allegation, made through background leaks in the US media on Tuesday, puts the ISI squarely in the dock of international scrutiny, with serious consequences for US-Pakistani military ties, since the spy agency is part of the Pakistani military and security establishment.

Two unnamed US administration officials disclosed that new classified intelligence obtained before the May 29 disappearance of the journalist, Saleem Shahzad, in Islamabad, and after the discovery of his mortally wounded body, showed that senior ISI officials directed the attack on him in an effort to silence criticism.

They said the intelligence in this regard is "reliable and conclusive,'' and it showed that the actions of the ISI, as it is known, were "barbaric and unacceptable". The Obama administration will deliberate in the coming days how to present the information about Shahzad's killing to Pakistani government, an official said.

30 AK-47%  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:27:34pm

the line of thought behind it is this: America is great because it has a covenant with God to enact his Divine laws through our secular laws.

by allowing abortion, gay marriage, gays in the military, gun control, government-run health care, evolution in the schools, etc., we have destroyed that covenant with God and he will wreak his wrath upon us.

31 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:30:07pm

Off topic but I just saw this tweet:

dovenews Libyan™

Saif #Gaddafi "We regret handing out the WMD" Ya it would be very easy to wipe out the whole of Libya MORON!! #MAD #DOG, #MAD #SON

32 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:30:54pm

I'm getting curious about the ISI and its relationship with the fanatic Islam groups. Does it have a commander/leader who is directing this and is so far untouchable? Or is it a case with a lot of mid-level functionaries acting "rogue" with the nodding support of superiors?

(A weak analogy of the latter is mid-level Japanese army officers triggering incidents and assassinating opposition politicians with relative impunity in the 1930s.)

33 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:31:16pm

Also:

dovenews Libyan™

Saif Gaddafi "All Libyans who have fled Libya are not allowed to come back to #Libya"... I dont know when did he inherited #Libya

34 jvic  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:31:20pm

1. I have no problem when conservatives cite the (Judeo-)Christian elements in America's founding.

I part company if they deliberately ignore the Greco-Roman and Enlightenment (and Indian?) influences on the Founders.

Such willful ignorance/distortion of history arguably is as culpable as knowing participation in a lie.

2. Speaking of willful ignorance, it seems to my inner pedant that a plausible claim that the End Is Near must also explain why all the similar claims, made continuously since Roman times, have been wrong.

35 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:34:21pm

Here's a great photo of Marvin Sanders when he was a child. What a sweet kid.

36 lawhawk  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:35:37pm

And once again,Bashar's busting out his dog-eared copy of the Hama rules. The city of Hama is the focus of the crackdown because they continue protesting Assad's regime and brutality.

Rep. Denis (the Menace) Kucinich could not be reached for comment.

37 avanti  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:35:42pm

Why don't they use this quote ?


"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

38 Obdicut  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:39:20pm

re: #37 avanti

Seriously, Jefferson is about as an impossible as a founding father to rehabilitate as a crazy Christian as you get. Why can't they just stick with Washington? I mean he wasn't a crazy fundamentalist, but it's easier to pretend he was.

39 Gus  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:40:05pm

Who the hell is that rat on the left side of the screen? Is it even human? Is that rat-boy after he got all growed up? Sorry, I try not to delves into people looks but these genetically deficient miscreants don't deserve normal human respect.

40 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:43:12pm

re: #38 Obdicut

Seriously, Jefferson is about as an impossible as a founding father to rehabilitate as a crazy Christian as you get. Why can't they just stick with Washington? I mean he wasn't a crazy fundamentalist, but it's easier to pretend he was.

Jefferson: "Worship 'em if you got 'em."

41 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:43:23pm

re: #9 WindUpBird

END TIMES BITCHES

we are shutting this universe down, we are ending the fucking simulation

we are cashing in your chips, we are eating your lunch, we have your source code, we are shutting down the servers marked "Earth"

The Armageddon Key is in the hands of Dan Savage, and he's unlocking the final door

veils? tossed aside

Rivers? blood

skies? frogs

dogs and cats? in unwholesome congress

You are drinking our milkshake?

/There Will Be Blood ;-P

42 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:46:01pm

this bashing is so disgusting, and so upsetting to me, I don't know how anybody can joke or even talk about for more than a few minutes....nothing pisses me off more than this subject...I can't stand these posers that want to dictate to us....a major, 4 star, full auto fuck them...anti-American scum

43 Lidane  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:47:58pm

re: #38 Obdicut

Seriously, Jefferson is about as an impossible as a founding father to rehabilitate as a crazy Christian as you get.

That's why David Barton and his ilk would rather marginalize Jefferson and pretend he wasn't as important to American History as someone like John Calvin.

It's hilarious to see the AFA trying to use Jefferson to make a religious point when others on the right want to pretend he had next to no influence at all.

44 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:49:57pm

Srry, ur Jihadi aplode
Three killed in Pakistan drone strike

Three people were killed and five were injured in a suspected U.S. drone strike on what U.S. officials called a Pakistani safe haven for al Qaeda-linked militants, intelligence officials told CNN.

The drone fired two missiles at a militant hideout near Mir Ali, North Waziristan, Tuesday night, according to Pakistani intelligence officials.

The home is located in mostly ungoverned tribal region and belonged to a Pakistani Taliban commander who was away at the time of the strike, officials said.

Based on a count by the CNN Islamabad bureau Tuesday's suspected drone strike was the 39th this year compared to 111 in all of 2010.

45 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:51:24pm

re: #29 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Obama administration will deliberate in the coming days how to present the information about Shahzad's killing to Pakistani government, an official said.


I'm looking forward to it.

46 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:51:28pm

The President is supposed to be broadcasting about now on the debt ceiling. Anyone got it?

47 Kragar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:51:59pm

re: #43 Lidane

That's why David Barton and his ilk would rather marginalize Jefferson and pretend he wasn't as important to American History as someone like John Calvin.

It's hilarious to see the AFA trying to use Jefferson to make a religious point when others on the right want to pretend he had next to no influence at all.

David Barton Is Not A Historian


As Fea notes, some who knew Washington believed him to be a "truly devout man," while others said they knew nothing about his personal faith at all, leading Fea to conclude that Washington's "religious life was just too ambiguous."

But acknowledging any ambiguity would only undermine David Barton's entire professional enterprise, so he instead asserts that there is overwhelming eyewitness testimony to Washington's deep and public Christian faith ... which only goes to demonstrate, once again, that Barton has no interest in teaching, or even recognizing, history that does not promote his political agenda.

48 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:52:41pm

re: #46 Decatur Deb

The President is supposed to be broadcasting about now on the debt ceiling. Anyone got it?

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

49 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:52:51pm

Signs of the "End Times:"

Volcanoes
Hurricanes
Drought
Floods
Earthquakes
Tornadoes
Typhoons
War
Peace (false)
Atheism
Muslims
Hindus
Occultism
Liberalism
Communism
Socialism
Libertarianism
Evolution biology
Cosmology
Astronomy
Nuclear Science
Poly/cotton fabric blends
People eating shellfish
Planting mixed crops
Lack of Stoning of adulteresses and rebellious children!

I mean the list just goes on and on, no wonder we are going to smitten by Gods wrath any damn day now! Of course then again people have been predicting this for 2000 years now and it has never happened yet. Even during WWII when the worldwide conflict and Nazi genocide gave them much more plausible reasons to say it was "just around the corner."

Sigh... :(

50 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:53:46pm

re: #48 Killgore Trout

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Thnx

51 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:54:06pm

re: #46 Decatur Deb

The President is supposed to be broadcasting about now on the debt ceiling. Anyone got it?

It's already over. He just said he wants to negotiate with Republicans, that's all.

52 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:54:20pm

re: #39 Gus 802
Mad magazine cover model??

End of the world.?? AGAIN!!!
I'm still paying off the credit card I defaulted on expecting the
LAST END OF THE WORLD!!
I'm not falling for this again...no..no..no...///

53 Kragar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:54:29pm

re: #49 ausador

Signs of the "End Times:"

Volcanoes
Hurricanes
Drought
Floods
Earthquakes
Tornadoes
Typhoons
War
Peace (false)
Atheism
Muslims
Hindus
Occultism
Liberalism
Communism
Socialism
Libertarianism
Evolution biology
Cosmology
Astronomy
Nuclear Science
Poly/cotton fabric blends
People eating shellfish
Planting mixed crops
Lack of Stoning of adulteresses and rebellious children!

I mean the list just goes on and on, no wonder we are going to smitten by Gods wrath any damn day now! Of course then again people have been predicting this for 2000 years now and it has never happened yet. Even during WWII when the worldwide conflict and Nazi genocide gave them much more plausible reasons to say it was "just around the corner."

Sigh... :(

I expect Battle Toads 2 on the shelves will be a more accurate predictor of when the End Times will be upon us.

54 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:55:39pm

re: #46 Decatur Deb

The President is supposed to be broadcasting about now on the debt ceiling. Anyone got it?

Sorry...I never have gotten it.....
...is that what meant??

55 freetoken  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:55:47pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

He just said he wants to negotiate with Republicans, that's all.

Well, that's boring.

56 Lidane  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:56:08pm

re: #47 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

David Barton Is Not A Historian

True. Unfortunately, he's convinced the ignorant yahoos on the Texas State Board of Education that he knows something about history and isn't just talking out of his ass. : /

57 dragonfire1981  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:56:26pm

re: #53 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I expect Battle Toads 2 on the shelves will be a more accurate predictor of when the End Times will be upon us.

Duke Nuke Forever just released...never say never.

58 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:57:17pm

re: #54 reloadingisnotahobby

Sorry...I never have gotten it...
...is that what meant??

Friend called w/ a heads-up. Expected some kind of bipartisan breakthrough. So naive...

59 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:57:26pm

re: #55 freetoken

Well, that's boring.

totally dude...he needed to go on prime time and do some teaching to the voters

60 Gus  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:58:33pm

re: #49 ausador

Signs of the "End Times:"

Volcanoes
Hurricanes
Drought
Floods
Earthquakes
Tornadoes
Typhoons
War
Peace (false)
Atheism
Muslims
Hindus
Occultism
Liberalism
Communism
Socialism
Libertarianism
Evolution biology
Cosmology
Astronomy
Nuclear Science
Poly/cotton fabric blends
People eating shellfish
Planting mixed crops
Lack of Stoning of adulteresses and rebellious children!

I mean the list just goes on and on, no wonder we are going to smitten by Gods wrath any damn day now! Of course then again people have been predicting this for 2000 years now and it has never happened yet. Even during WWII when the worldwide conflict and Nazi genocide gave them much more plausible reasons to say it was "just around the corner."

Sigh... :(

Yeah. Forget all that Atilla the Hun, Hitler, and Stalin stuff. God just gets really angry at gay marriage.

//

61 freetoken  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:58:49pm

re: #59 albusteve

totally dude...he needed to go on prime time and do some teaching to the voters

Or at least challenge Boehner to a dance off. On the BBC Strictly Come Dancing (the precursor to DWTS), tied contestants used to do dance-offs.

62 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 1:59:10pm

re: #57 dragonfire1981

Duke Nuke Forever just released...never say never.

I'm gonna buy it...the first game for me in probably 8 years....
yer head, yer ass....what's the difference?

63 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:00:15pm

re: #61 freetoken

Or at least challenge Boehner to a dance off. On the BBC Strictly Come Dancing (the precursor to DWTS), tied contestants used to do dance-offs.

whatever...he needs to LEAD from the front

64 Gus  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:00:39pm

Cancer! What? You want me to help you find a cure to cancer? Heck no. I will smite thee for gay marriage instead. -- Your Benevolent Wingnut God

//

65 Kragar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:00:45pm

re: #60 Gus 802

Yeah. Forget all that Atilla the Hun, Hitler, and Stalin stuff. God just gets really angry at gay marriage.

//

Obviously if those gay Nazis had ever tried to promote Gay marriage before coming to power, God would have put a stop to them much sooner.

66 dragonfire1981  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:00:45pm

I'm curious: Has there ever been a successful Christian theocratic nation?

67 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:00:46pm

re: #60 Gus 802

Yeah. Forget all that Atilla the Hun, Hitler, and Stalin stuff. God just gets really angry at gay marriage.

//

What the hell does a Viking raiding party have to do to get a little respect around here? (A prayer for deliverance 'from the Norseman' is still in a Catholic litany.)

68 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:01:23pm

...Just had a power bump followed by THUNDER!!!
...Was that on the list ausador....?

69 Lidane  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:01:28pm

re: #57 dragonfire1981

Duke Nuke Forever just released...never say never.

It was released but it was a mountain of crap. You really have to wonder what the hell Gearbox was thinking in releasing that nonsense.

A sequel to Rock n' Roll Racing would be a much better harbinger of doom.

70 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:01:43pm

re: #38 Obdicut

Seriously, Jefferson is about as an impossible as a founding father to rehabilitate as a crazy Christian as you get. Why can't they just stick with Washington? I mean he wasn't a crazy fundamentalist, but it's easier to pretend he was.

I have a feeling that one of the reasons the hardcore RR wingnuts are trying so hard to paint Jefferson as a proto-TPer (in the modern sense) is that he was really the first POTUS who made war on predominantly Muslim nations/city-states (see: the Berbers' violation of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli (negotiated and signed under Adams), the campaign against the Barbary Pirates and the resulting renegotiation of the Treaty).

71 Gus  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:01:58pm

You think all of that "American slavery stuff" would have pissed him off first.

72 Lidane  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:02:15pm

re: #62 albusteve

I'm gonna buy it...the first game for me in probably 8 years...
yer head, yer ass...what's the difference?

Rent it. All the reviews for it are awful.

73 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:02:22pm

re: #66 dragonfire1981

I'm curious: Has there ever been a successful Christian theocratic nation?

Hapsburg Spain held it together for a good while.

74 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:02:27pm

re: #67 Decatur Deb

...ARRRGH.........What's your wallet??

75 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:04:09pm

re: #66 dragonfire1981

I'm curious: Has there ever been a successful Christian theocratic nation?

Utah's doing OK....Does that count??
/

76 Digital Display  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:05:15pm

Hi Lizards...
A Man's home is his Castle, In a Manor of speaking

77 Kragar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:06:07pm

re: #66 dragonfire1981

I'm curious: Has there ever been a successful Christian theocratic nation?

House of Borgia count?

78 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:06:11pm

damn, missed the address, he say anything new or interesting?

79 freetoken  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:07:38pm

re: #78 windsagio

damn, missed the address, he say anything new or interesting?

He saved 15% by switching to GEICO.

80 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:07:56pm

re: #77 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

House of Borgia count?

Holy Roman Empire had a nice run.

81 Gus  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:08:33pm

Eric the Villager: Father O'Malley you must help our people. We have nothing to eat and our people are starving. The working condition at the mine are terrible and many of my brothers have died working at the mine. We are plagued with cholera, tuberculosis and other deadly diseases. Please, can you or the church help our people in dire need?

Father O'Malley: Perhaps. However, we must deal with the most pressing matter before the eyes of the Lord. Is it true that your brother is a homosexual?

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:08:42pm

re: #36 lawhawk

And once again,Bashar's busting out his dog-eared copy of the Hama rules. The city of Hama is the focus of the crackdown because they continue protesting Assad's regime and brutality.

Rep. Denis (the Menace) Kucinich could not be reached for comment.

My bitterness about this happening in conjunction with the flotilla mess has reached toxic levels, so I'll just shut up now.

83 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:08:46pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Holy Roman Empire had a nice run.

"Neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire".

84 Spocomptonite  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:10:11pm

I'd like these people to read this analysis. But then again, data is no match for dogma.

btw, firebrand preachers are always using "The End Times" to further their influence through exaggerated controversy. It's almost a template. "[insert topic here] is the sign of The End Times. You must all listen to and follow me to save yourselves!" Mad Libbing their sermons is entertaining.

Examples:
"Multicellular Yeast is the sign of The End Times. You must all listen to and follow me to save yourselves!"

"The summer ban on watering suburban lawns is the sign of The End Times. You must all listen to and follow me to save yourselves!"

"Weddings without single bridesmaids is the sign of The End Times. You must all listen to and follow me to save yourselves!"

The last one is true, btw.

85 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:10:19pm

re: #83 Decatur Deb

"Neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire".

I guess they were technically a Republic and not a theocracy.

86 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:10:25pm

re: #83 Decatur Deb

hey now, dems fighting words! I have a deep irrational love for the HRE!

87 Gus  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:10:51pm

In other news... I'm melting.

88 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:10:51pm

re: #86 windsagio

(altho everything you said is true >>)

89 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:11:04pm

re: #47 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

David Barton Is Not A Historian

George Washington, not realizing that future pseudo-historians would need evidence of his fanatical zeal, went about his regular, jam-packed, highly productive life, and did not grab people and tell them he was a Christian every ten minutes.

What a let-down.

90 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:11:22pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

I guess they were technically a Republic and not a theocracy.

The nobles preyed a lot.

91 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:11:44pm

re: #49 ausador

Signs of the "End Times:"

Volcanoes
Hurricanes
Drought
Floods
Earthquakes
Tornadoes
Typhoons
War
Peace (false)
Atheism
Muslims
Hindus
Occultism
Liberalism
Communism
Socialism
Libertarianism
Evolution biology
Cosmology
Astronomy
Nuclear Science
Poly/cotton fabric blends
People eating shellfish
Planting mixed crops
Lack of Stoning of adulteresses and rebellious children!

I mean the list just goes on and on, no wonder we are going to smitten by Gods wrath any damn day now! Of course then again people have been predicting this for 2000 years now and it has never happened yet. Even during WWII when the worldwide conflict and Nazi genocide gave them much more plausible reasons to say it was "just around the corner."

Sigh... :(

I keep telling you, poly-cotton blends are OK.

92 Kragar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:12:12pm

re: #91 SanFranciscoZionist

I keep telling you, poly-cotton blends are OK.

INFIDEL!!!

93 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:12:14pm

re: #86 windsagio

hey now, dems fighting words! I have a deep irrational love for the HRE!

I forget whose quote--possibly Durant.

94 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:12:18pm

actually, it was kind of an empire.

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

next you'll tell me he COULD tell a lie and DIDN'T cut down that cherry tree :(

95 Gus  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:13:03pm

re: #66 dragonfire1981

I'm curious: Has there ever been a successful Christian theocratic nation?

Ireland!

//

96 Spocomptonite  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:13:09pm

re: #86 windsagio

And the HRE had an irrational love for North Italy.

Axis Powers Hetalia, while not executed very well, was a hilarious concept.

97 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:13:41pm

re: #66 dragonfire1981

I'm curious: Has there ever been a successful Christian theocratic nation?

The Vatican

98 Amory Blaine  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:13:50pm

Here's an article by David Brooks.

Worth the short read.

99 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:14:03pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

I guess they were technically a Republic and not a theocracy.

yes, until Caesar...after that Rome was pretty much a dictatorship

100 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:14:31pm

re: #93 Decatur Deb

I forget whose quote--possibly Durant.

re: #94 windsagio

actually, it was kind of an empire.

next you'll tell me he COULD tell a lie and DIDN'T cut down that cherry tree :(

Checked--take it up with Voltaire.

101 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:15:28pm

re: #76 HoosierHoops

Hi Lizards...
A Man's home is his Castle, In a Manor of speaking

Though you can lose it like a fief in the night.

102 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:15:47pm

re: #96 Spocomptonite

And the HRE had an irrational love for North Italy.

Axis Powers Hetalia, while not executed very well, was a hilarious concept.

Love for Northern Italy is never irrational.

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:16:28pm

re: #66 dragonfire1981

I'm curious: Has there ever been a successful Christian theocratic nation?

Calvin's Geneva, or Puritan Massachusetts probably came closest, but they were hardly 'nations'.

Medieval Europe essentially had secular and religious governmental bodies working side by side and splitting the tasks and the controls (For an interesting cinematic version of this, see "The Advocate", where the young lawyer gets his client acquitted of secular charges of witchcraft, and then loses her to the Church, which executes her.)

In Protestant Renaissance nations, you get something closer--a merging of religious and national identities.

Not exactly, I think would be the answer, but it depends entirely on how you define 'theocratic'.

104 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:16:37pm

re: #99 albusteve

yes, until Caesar...after that Rome was pretty much a dictatorship

I really should brush up on my Roman history one of these days.

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:16:51pm

re: #73 Decatur Deb

Hapsburg Spain held it together for a good while.

Them.

106 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:17:35pm

re: #95 Gus 802

Ireland!

//

Yeah, but that was only because of the Whiskey...

/

107 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:18:53pm

re: #102 Decatur Deb

Dude's hiding in a goddamn coffin. Won't even come out when I challenge him to a duel.

@(#*&$@# Frenchmen.

108 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:19:57pm

re: #106 ausador

Yeah, but that was only because of the Whiskey...

/

The distillers and the hierarchy had a common humanitarian goal:
"If it weren't for the booze and the bishops the Irish would fuck themselves to death."
--Brendan Behan

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:20:17pm

re: #92 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

INFIDEL!!!

Of course, it's only as a Jew that I say that poly-cotton blends are OK. I had a minor SCA persona who was a seventeenth-century English Puritan. Fear-the-Lord-and-Wear-Natural-Fibers Hopkins. She was death on artificial fibers. (It's an SCA thing. The props, had I ever gotten to them, would have included melted hunks of blackened polyester, demonstrating what you could expect to happen to you in hell if you wore non-period-accurate textiles.)

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:20:33pm

re: #95 Gus 802

Ireland!

//

"Successful".

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:22:29pm

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

Calvin's Geneva, or Puritan Massachusetts probably came closest, but they were hardly 'nations'.

Medieval Europe essentially had secular and religious governmental bodies working side by side and splitting the tasks and the controls (For an interesting cinematic version of this, see "The Advocate", where the young lawyer gets his client acquitted of secular charges of witchcraft, and then loses her to the Church, which executes her.)

In Protestant Renaissance nations, you get something closer--a merging of religious and national identities.

Not exactly, I think would be the answer, but it depends entirely on how you define 'theocratic'.

Actually, just see "The Advocate". It's a wonderful movie.

112 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:22:33pm

re: #28 engineer dog

why discuss serious issues of economic and social justice when you can direct all of your anger at the person at the center of the latest murder trial?

Oh man totally

The sport and industry (and thus distraction potential) for wigging out about the latest sensationalized murder trial, it's like catnip to inbeciles

OH THAT SCOTT PETERSON, LET'S TALK ABOUT HIM EVERY DAY FOREVER

113 Gus  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:23:57pm

Blech. Way too hot. Summer sucks. BBL

114 thatthatisis  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:24:41pm

Am I missing something? The Holy Roman Empire did not exist before Caesar, but a thousand years or so after Caesar. Are we talking about the same empire?

115 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:24:50pm

re: #104 Killgore Trout

I really should brush up on my Roman history one of these days.

it's fascinating stuff...there is a ton of good historical fiction as well...try the Conn Iggulden books

116 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:25:29pm

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

do you count The Achbishoporics of Trier, Mainz, and Koln? (I don't count the Vatican, because it doesn't count :p)

117 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:26:08pm

re: #114 thatthatisis

You're not the one missing something ;)

118 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:26:35pm

re: #116 windsagio

do you count The Achbishoporics of Trier, Mainz, and Koln? (I don't count the Vatican, because it doesn't count :p)

Couse it does: "I,II,III,IV"...

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:27:36pm

re: #116 windsagio

do you count The Achbishoporics of Trier, Mainz, and Koln? (I don't count the Vatican, because it doesn't count :p)

I don't know what to count. What counts as a theocracy?

There were certainly times and places when the secular ruler and the religious leader were the same person, times when crimes against the Church were punished by the state...lots of 'em. So we need a working definition here.

120 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:27:48pm

re: #114 thatthatisis

Am I missing something? The Holy Roman Empire did not exist before Caesar, but a thousand years or so after Caesar. Are we talking about the same empire?

2 different things entirely

121 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:28:00pm

re: #118 Decatur Deb

Couse it does: "I,II,III,IV"...

122 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:29:19pm

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know what to count. What counts as a theocracy?

There were certainly times and places when the secular ruler and the religious leader were the same person, times when crimes against the Church were punished by the state...lots of 'em. So we need a working definition here.

No contest--the longest run was by the god/kings of Egypt. All other history is half of Egypt's.

123 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:31:11pm

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

I guess a 'theocratic nation' would be one where the secular and religious leader were the same person, and self-designated as a religious state... and didn't have a strong central authority over it (which might exclude the HRE Archbishoporics, altho' the empire was never that strong)

124 Kragar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:31:16pm

re: #122 Decatur Deb

No contest--the longest run was by the god/kings of Egypt. All other history is half of Egypt's.

The Pharaohs were a Christian theocracy?

125 freetoken  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:31:20pm
126 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:31:57pm

re: #122 Decatur Deb

No contest--the longest run was by the god/kings of Egypt. All other history is half of Egypt's.

agreed...the god/kings WERE Egypt

127 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:32:40pm

re: #124 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Pharaohs were a Christian theocracy?

Strayed outside the rules--I was heading for Tibet next.

128 Kragar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:33:13pm

re: #126 albusteve

agreed...the god/kings WERE Egypt

NO! They were aliens. The pyramids were landing platforms for their ships.

129 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:33:30pm

lol they put up a statue of reagan in england

130 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:33:38pm

re: #127 Decatur Deb

I was gonna go China, but the manner in which the Emperors were considered changed at various times, so not sure it counts (not continuous).

131 Amory Blaine  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:34:18pm

Don't know too much about Duke Nukem except for the average reviews it's been getting.

Here's a video of a GTA IV mod that's coming out soon. I don't have that game but the mod looks great.

132 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:34:27pm

re: #129 SpaceJesus

Which is of course, Hilarious and annoying.

Most Overrated President Ever (barely beating out Kennedy).

Also, a criminal.

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:34:31pm

re: #122 Decatur Deb

No contest--the longest run was by the god/kings of Egypt. All other history is half of Egypt's.

Well, yeah, but we started with 'Christian'.

134 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:35:09pm

re: #124 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Pharaohs were a Christian theocracy?

I guess I missed the original question...I'd think any early Papal supported govt would count

135 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:35:17pm

re: #132 windsagio

Which is of course, Hilarious and annoying.

Most Overrated President Ever (barely beating out Kennedy).

Also, a criminal.


Indeed. If I had the money, I would pay to change the statue so that Reagan is handing a giant bag of money to Saddam Hussein, and rocket launcher to the Taliban.

136 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:35:23pm

re: #129 SpaceJesus

lol they put up a statue of reagan in england

for the pigeons.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:35:48pm

re: #123 windsagio

I guess a 'theocratic nation' would be one where the secular and religious leader were the same person, and self-designated as a religious state... and didn't have a strong central authority over it (which might exclude the HRE Archbishoporics, altho' the empire was never that strong)

Elizabethan England, then, certainly. But, for example, that rules technically rules out Renaissance Florence, say--except perhaps under Savanarola.

138 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:36:19pm

re: #135 SpaceJesus

You need to get Khomeini in there somewhere.

139 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:36:45pm

re: #129 SpaceJesus

lol they put up a statue of reagan in england

and the WH had Christmas tree ornaments of Mao last year

140 William of Orange  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:36:51pm

Djeezes!

Why should anyone listen to this Anthony Perkins? Wasn't he scary enough in Psycho?

141 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:36:59pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

That's an excellent one. Bravo!

142 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:37:05pm

re: #139 albusteve

and the WH had Christmas tree ornaments of Mao last year

me too

143 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:37:12pm

re: #139 albusteve

and the WH had Christmas tree ornaments of Mao last year

So it did. My poor dad nearly fainted.

144 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:37:46pm

re: #135 SpaceJesus

Indeed. If I had the money, I would pay to change the statue so that Reagan is handing a giant bag of money to Saddam Hussein, and rocket launcher to the Taliban.

Put six dead nuns under his feet for good measure.

145 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:37:59pm

re: #139 albusteve

Which was also hilarious.

You get special ups for equating Reagan with Mao tho', not even I had the cojones to do that :D

146 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:38:13pm

re: #128 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

NO! They were aliens. The pyramids were landing platforms for their ships.

we know that now, but the Pharaohs were not that bright back then

147 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:39:42pm

re: #139 albusteve

and the WH had Christmas tree ornaments of Mao last year

ornaments of an Andy Warhol piece of Mao, actually

148 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:40:39pm

Wikipedia, but I don't note any awful errors, bearing in mind it's been a while since college, and my novel is set in 1462.

That image of Botticelli bringing his own canvases to the fires has always haunted me.

After Charles VIII of France invaded Florence in 1494, the ruling Medici were overthrown and Savonarola emerged as the new leader of the city, combining in himself the role of leader and priest. He set up a republic in Florence. Characterizing it as a “Christian and religious Republic,” one of its first acts was to make sodomy, previously punishable by fine, into a capital offence. Homosexuality had previously been tolerated in the city, and many homosexuals from the elite now chose to leave Florence. His chief enemies were the Duke of Milan, Ludovico Sforza, and Pope Alexander VI, who issued numerous restraints against him, all of which were subsequently ignored.

In 1497, he and his followers carried out the Bonfire of the Vanities. They sent boys from door to door collecting items associated with moral laxity: mirrors, cosmetics, lewd pictures, pagan books, immoral sculptures (which he wanted to be replaced by statues of the saints and modest depictions of biblical scenes), gaming tables, chess pieces, lutes and other musical instruments, fine dresses, women’s hats, and the works of immoral and ancient poets, and burnt them all in a large pile in the Piazza della Signoria of Florence.[2] Many fine Florentine Renaissance artworks were lost in Savonarola’s notorious bonfires — including paintings by Sandro Botticelli, which he is alleged to have thrown into the fires himself.[3]

Florence soon became tired of Savonarola because of the city’s continual political and economic miseries partially derived from Savonarola's opposition to trading and making money. When a Franciscan preacher challenged him to a trial by fire in the city centre and he declined, his following began to dissipate.

During his Ascension Day sermon on May 4, 1497, bands of youths rioted, and the riot became a revolt: dancing and singing taverns reopened, and men again dared to gamble publicly.

149 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:40:42pm

re: #142 SpaceJesus

me too

so what's your beef?...you need to pass judgment on every statue erected in the free world?...where's the lol?

150 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:40:44pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

Elizabethan England, then, certainly. But, for example, that rules technically rules out Renaissance Florence, say--except perhaps under Savanarola.

And you saw how well that worked out. (I've stood on the brass medallion in the piazza where his stake was mounted--I think the Florentines are still pleaded with themselves.)

151 Kragar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:40:50pm

re: #147 WindUpBird

ornaments of an Andy Warhol piece of Mao, actually

So doubly evil then...

152 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:41:00pm

re: #129 SpaceJesus

lol they put up a statue of reagan in england

it's at the US embassy, that doesn't count :D

153 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:41:35pm

re: #149 albusteve

heh...you said 'erected'...

154 Spocomptonite  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:41:48pm

re: #122 Decatur Deb

No contest--the longest run was by the god/kings of Egypt. All other history is half of Egypt's.

And their rule was only ended comparatively recently, in Stargate SG:1, season 8.

155 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:42:28pm

re: #145 windsagio

Which was also hilarious.

You get special ups for equating Reagan with Mao tho', not even I had the cojones to do that :D

the bullshit factor probably eludes you...who could give a shit?

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:42:36pm

I'm working on the second book now of a series of mystery novels set in Renaissance Florence. They remind me of Americans, a lot.

157 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:42:57pm

re: #153 darthstar

heh...you said 'erected'...

but I didn't say 'special'!

158 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:43:36pm

re: #135 SpaceJesus

Indeed. If I had the money, I would pay to change the statue so that Reagan is handing a giant bag of money to Saddam Hussein, and rocket launcher to the Taliban.

159 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:44:07pm

re: #157 albusteve

but I didn't say 'special'!

You just did.

160 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:44:07pm

re: #158 WindUpBird

I couldn't possibly love you more than I do this very moment.

161 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:44:52pm

re: #156 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm working on the second book now of a series of mystery novels set in Renaissance Florence. They remind me of Americans, a lot.

A friend of mine once ran a role-playing game campaign based on a far future interpretation of Renaissance Florence, set in a gigantic hive-like city in the far future

Sure beat D&D :D

162 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:45:27pm

re: #156 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm working on the second book now of a series of mystery novels set in Renaissance Florence. They remind me of Americans, a lot.

Have you read Donna Leon's delightful (modern) Venice mysteries? She's done 20, was my kid's teacher in Aviano. I don't know if I should put up the Amazon link any more.

163 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:45:33pm

re: #160 windsagio

I couldn't possibly love you more than I do this very moment.

:D

164 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:45:38pm

re: #158 WindUpBird

Other statue idea: Reagan slapping a single mother in the face, offering her a crack pipe with the other.

165 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:46:01pm

re: #159 darthstar

You just did.

now I'm fucked

166 Spocomptonite  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:46:05pm

re: #158 WindUpBird

[Video]

Uncle Ruckus. Boondocks is the best.

167 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:46:13pm

re: #164 windsagio

(add 'with one hand' after 'in the face')

168 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:46:59pm

re: #164 windsagio

Other statue idea: Reagan slapping a single mother in the face, offering her a crack pipe with the other.

stopping a welfare queen's big 80's cadillac with his hands, like he's superman

169 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:47:03pm

re: #165 albusteve

now I'm fucked

Gee...and I didn't even have to buy you a drink first.

170 Genshed  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:47:33pm

Reading things like this (the OP) always provokes the same reaction for me. These people spend a LOT of time thinking about me, my marriage and family. It would be flattering if they weren't so vicious about it.
I spend a fair amont of psychological effort making my family seem boringly normal and ordinary (for our kids), and here these folks come along making us sound like the Castavets. At least both our sons will be immunized against it; anyone tries to fill their heads with hate and guilt, and they'll just say, 'OUR fathers?! Dude, they are SO not all that.'

Also, the Papal States should count as a theocracy, as they were under the direct and absolute rule of the Pope until 1872 or so (except for Napoleon' occupation). In theory, the Pope is still absolute monarch of the Vatican, which is like beng King of Central Park.

171 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:48:11pm

re: #168 WindUpBird

A hammer and sickle underfoot!

172 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:48:24pm

re: #166 Spocomptonite

Uncle Ruckus. Boondocks is the best.

CURSED!!!

173 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:48:43pm

re: #162 Decatur Deb

Have you read Donna Leon's delightful (modern) Venice mysteries? She's done 20, was my kid's teacher in Aviano. I don't know if I should put up the Amazon link any more.

I've been tempted, but haven't picked one up yet.

174 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:49:10pm

re: #171 windsagio

A hammer and sickle underfoot!

A chained, naked air-traffic controller at his feet.

175 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:50:38pm

re: #174 Decatur Deb

A chained, naked air-traffic controller at his feet.

that would fit Clinton perfectly...a chained, naked intern at his feet while in his Rocky victory pose

176 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:50:45pm

re: #174 Decatur Deb

Chimp dressed as Knute Rockne standing at his side!

177 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:51:35pm

re: #174 Decatur Deb

A chained, naked air-traffic controller at his feet.

How do I become an ex president?

178 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:52:53pm

re: #174 Decatur Deb

A chained, naked air-traffic controller at his feet.

OK, that made me grin.

179 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:53:05pm

re: #177 darthstar

How do I become an ex president?

Put on a mask, and learn how to surf

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:53:09pm

re: #175 albusteve

that would fit Clinton perfectly...a chained, naked intern at his feet while in his Rocky victory pose

The intern wasn't chained. Just wearing knee pads.

181 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:53:41pm

ok, ttyall in a bit, I need some vitamin D

182 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:53:45pm

re: #175 albusteve

that would fit Clinton perfectly...a chained, naked intern at his feet while in his Rocky victory pose

Or just him getting blown while on the phone. V I C - T O - R Y...

183 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:53:46pm

re: #173 SanFranciscoZionist

I've been tempted, but haven't picked one up yet.

She puts out one every Spring, all with vice-questore Brunetti, who reads Thucydides, loves nothing more than his wife and children and the meals he eats with hem each noon. No one is ever brought to justice, but justice is usually done. You would like his wife, who teaches Henry James at the university.

184 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:53:58pm

re: #180 SanFranciscoZionist

The intern wasn't chained. Just wearing knee pads.

ARTISAN kneepads

185 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:54:38pm

re: #149 albusteve

so what's your beef?...you need to pass judgment on every statue erected in the free world?...where's the lol?

i don't own mao ornaments, i don't even celebrate christmas. sarcasm.

186 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:55:08pm

re: #185 SpaceJesus

i don't own mao ornaments, i don't even celebrate christmas. sarcasm.

Oh, come on. Everyone should do something nice for his own birthday.

187 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:55:45pm

re: #185 SpaceJesus

i don't own mao ornaments, i don't even celebrate christmas. sarcasm.


I take great pride in celebrating Christmas as someone who is not even remotely Christian

They stole the holiday, i'm re-stealing it

188 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:56:03pm

re: #175 albusteve

that would fit Clinton perfectly...a chained, naked intern at his feet while in his Rocky victory pose

Nah--if she'd been naked, he would have avoided a world of inconvenience.

189 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:56:07pm

re: #186 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, come on. Everyone should do something nice for his own birthday.

freakin' capricorns...they don't know how to have fun.

190 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 2:56:42pm

re: #188 Decatur Deb

Nah--if she'd been naked, he would have avoided a world of inconvenience.

We all would have avoided a world of inconvenience.

191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:00:16pm

Just saw a Facebook page

Porch lights on for Caylee Marie Anthony

Giving more and more power to Nancy and Greta.

They're combing the "missing pretty white kids" reports as we speak.

192 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:00:58pm

re: #179 WindUpBird

Put on a mask, and learn how to surf

[Video]

If Point Break Live! ever makes it to Portland I highly recommend going to see it.

193 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:03:23pm

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nancy Grace is one of the most disgusting characters in our media today. And Greta van Sustern is no better...

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:05:03pm

re: #193 darthstar

Nancy Grace is one of the most disgusting characters in our media today. And Greta van Sustern is no better...

Nancy Grace scares the hell out of me.

I hadn't seen her until we were staying with the husband's grandparents last year, and, well, she's scary.

195 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:05:04pm

re: #193 darthstar

Nancy Grace is one of the most disgusting characters creatures in our media today. And Greta van Sustern is no better...

apologies to characters out there...

196 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:06:19pm

I know it's Fox but this is interesting....
Terror Suspect Interrogated on Navy Ship for Two Months Arrives in U.S.


The suspect captured recently was interrogated "extensively" and for "some time" by military personnel, and he provided useful intelligence, according to one source. After military officials interrogated him, U.S. law enforcement officials aboard the Navy vessel were able to interview him, and he continued to offer useful information, according to the source.
...
The suspect is described as a mid-level operative within al-Shabab.

The group has produced the first known American suicide bombers, pledged to retaliate for the killing of Usama bin Laden, and, in the words of the White House's top counterterrorism adviser, "continues to call for strikes against the United States."
...
"In many cases, we will put them on a naval vessel and we will hold them until we can either get a case to prosecute them in U.S. court or ... we can return him to a third party country," McRaven said.

197 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:07:01pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

Nancy Grace scares the hell out of me.

I hadn't seen her until we were staying with the husband's grandparents last year, and, well, she's scary.

She'll rip a rape victim to shreds on TV as "devil's advocate" without ever telling them she's doing it...she's a hideous, hideous person.

198 brownbagj  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:07:03pm

re: #49 ausador

You forgot the most important sign. Black President.

/

199 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:07:58pm

re: #197 darthstar

She'll rip a rape victim to shreds on TV as "devil's advocate" without ever telling them she's doing it...she's a hideous, hideous person.

TV?....
bwahahaha!
snort

200 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:10:53pm

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just saw a Facebook page

Giving more and more power to Nancy and Greta.

They're combing the "missing pretty white kids" reports as we speak.

I know that Grace and Van Sustern, being part of the MSM, depends on "if it bleeds, it leads" to make their living, but their whole "focus on the missing pretty white kids and basically ignore anyone missing with any other skin tone" really cheeses me off. I don't think they're racists, but it does smack of deliberate programming decisions.

201 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:11:23pm

re: #193 darthstar

Nancy Grace is one of the most disgusting characters in our media today. And Greta van Sustern is no better...

You can laugh at Glen Beck but she just drips a certain evil that is bone chilling to watch. It's even worse to just listen to her - I used to have XM Radio and couldn't stand it if she was on CNN.

202 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:11:27pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

Nancy Grace scares the hell out of me.

I hadn't seen her until we were staying with the husband's grandparents last year, and, well, she's scary.

Pay attention. The 600 series had rubber skin. We spotted them easy. But these are new. They look human. Sweat, bad breath, everything. Very hard to spot.

203 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:11:41pm

re: #196 Killgore Trout

the Third Party Country?....deep six

204 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:14:09pm

re: #203 albusteve

the Third Party Country?...deep six

exactly. Rendered over the edge.

205 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:15:23pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

exactly. Rendered over the edge.

boy, are we smart or wot?

206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:16:45pm

re: #199 albusteve

TV?...
bwahahaha!
snort

Okay. You win this round.

207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:17:35pm

re: #202 goddamnedfrank

Excellent.

208 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:20:15pm

re: #202 goddamnedfrank

Pay attention. The 600 series had rubber skin. We spotted them easy. But these are new. They look human. Sweat, bad breath, everything. Very hard to spot.


I'll stick with my Cherry 2000

209 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:20:38pm

re: #206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay. You win this round.

one does a swan dive into the sewer, come up for air and say"it smells like shit!"...sheer genius...how do you think Fox survives?....every time you switch it on, you become part of the problem

210 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:21:50pm

re: #209 albusteve

But they were hacked! (works great if you're not a Democratic congressman sending pictures of your cock to everyone via twitter)

211 God of Binders with Women  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:23:08pm

NYT article on Goodhair and W has this interesting nugget for a paragraph:

On government spending, immigration and education, Mr. Perry’s criticisms of Mr. Bush have given him cachet with conservatives, especially with Tea Party voters who blame the former president for allowing spending and the reach of government to grow rapidly.

Huh??!! Uh, does anyone out there recall any placards with Bush's face on them and SOCIALIST!!! underneath?

212 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:23:22pm

Just out of curiosity, what does the New Testament actually say about signs indicating the end times are coming? Is there anything that can even be remotely interpreted as same-sex marriage signaling its arrival? (If so, point me to the relevant section.)

213 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:23:59pm

re: #209 albusteve

I am proud to say, that with all of the hours that I watch TV? I never, ever watch that stuff. But I did watch "How States Got Their Shape" last night. Was fascinating.

Doesn't have to be a sewer. I just have to be selective.

214 God of Binders with Women  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:25:06pm

re: #212 reuven

Just out of curiosity, what does the New Testament actually say about signs indicating the end times are coming? Is there anything that can even be remotely interpreted as same-sex marriage signaling its arrival? (If so, point me to the relevant section.)

It's in the section after Jesus speaks about abortion.
//

215 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:25:58pm

re: #197 darthstar

She'll rip a rape victim to shreds on TV as "devil's advocate" without ever telling them she's doing it...she's a hideous, hideous person.


America is full of hideous people propping up HLN's ratings!

She's just the opportunist who recognizes how to make money off animals

CNN is just as nasty as Fox, they just paint with a different palette of nasty

216 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:26:42pm

re: #212 reuven

"And lo, he did take him into his mouth and an angel did smited them, in his mercy."
Second Book of Intolerances, Chapter 3:5.

(I'm a Christian, therefore I can make that joke.)

217 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:26:50pm

re: #211 Kid A

NYT article on Goodhair and W has this interesting nugget for a paragraph:

On government spending, immigration and education, Mr. Perry’s criticisms of Mr. Bush have given him cachet with conservatives, especially with Tea Party voters who blame the former president for allowing spending and the reach of government to grow rapidly.

Huh??!! Uh, does anyone out there recall any placards with Bush's face on them and SOCIALIST!!! underneath?

to be fair, Bush wasn't black!

218 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:27:55pm

re: #215 WindUpBird

America is full of hideous people propping up HLN's ratings!

She's just the opportunist who recognizes how to make money off animals

CNN is just as nasty as Fox, they just paint with a different palette of nasty

I liked Headline News when it was still a 30 minute newscast, 48 times a day. That was pretty fucking cool. It was like an electronic version of the USA Today read aloud. I'd rather watch MSNBC's weekend Lockup Raw! marathon than HLN anymore.

219 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:29:31pm

re: #218 darthstar

I liked Headline News when it was still a 30 minute newscast, 48 times a day. That was pretty fucking cool. It was like an electronic version of the USA Today read aloud. I'd rather watch MSNBC's weekend Lockup Raw! marathon than HLN anymore.

How long ago was that!

I'd honestly rather watch infomercials than HLN, at least an infomercial is honest in its deception :D

220 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:30:15pm

re: #219 WindUpBird

How long ago was that!

I'd honestly rather watch infomercials than HLN, at least an infomercial is honest in its deception :D

I don't know...I used to travel a lot between 1998 and 2002 - I guess I stopped watching some time after that.

221 BishopX  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:30:52pm

re: #212 reuven

From Mathew 24:

36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37“For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38“For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40“Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41“Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. 42“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43“But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44“For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Pardon the copy pasta, the tl;dr is that anyone predicting the end times is full of shit.

222 BongCrodny  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:31:03pm

re: #211 Kid A

NYT article on Goodhair and W has this interesting nugget for a paragraph:

On government spending, immigration and education, Mr. Perry’s criticisms of Mr. Bush have given him cachet with conservatives, especially with Tea Party voters who blame the former president for allowing spending and the reach of government to grow rapidly.

Huh??!! Uh, does anyone out there recall any placards with Bush's face on them and SOCIALIST!!! underneath?


Pssst. Dubya's a RINO. Pass it on.

223 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:32:39pm

re: #215 WindUpBird

America is full of hideous people propping up HLN's ratings!

She's just the opportunist who recognizes how to make money off animals

CNN is just as nasty as Fox, they just paint with a different palette of nasty

CNN is nazty, they take normal, garden variety nasty and make it put the lotion in the basket.

224 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:33:00pm

re: #222 BongCrodny

Pssst. Dubya's a RINO. Pass it on.

Bush was a useful idiot. He did what he was appointed to do.

225 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:33:19pm

re: #221 BishopX

From Mathew 24:

Pardon the copy pasta, the tl;dr is that anyone predicting the end times is full of shit.

The apocalypse is big business!


You think all those so-con Christers read the bible? hah, it's like the terms and service on Itunes. Scroll by that shit, get to the screamin' and the flappin' and the condemnin'!

226 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:34:11pm

re: #224 darthstar

Bush was a useful idiot. He did what he was appointed to do.

hope and change!

227 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:36:51pm

and I want to play football for the coach...

Sorry...end of Lou Reed tangent.

228 BishopX  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:38:01pm

re: #225 WindUpBird

Totally. I'm in the middle of The Rise of Magic in early Medieval Europe, which is basically about how the church just went and made shit up to win converts.

229 BongCrodny  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:39:39pm

re: #221 BishopX


Two women will be grinding at the mill


I had no idea the Bible was into that sort of thing.

230 BongCrodny  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:42:59pm

re: #224 darthstar

Bush was a useful idiot. He did what he was appointed to do.


I never considered Bush an idiot.

But to be fair, I never considered him useful, either.

231 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:45:44pm

re: #230 BongCrodny

I never considered Bush an idiot.

But to be fair, I never considered him useful, either.

the BDS lives on...ahaha!

232 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:49:50pm

re: #193 darthstar

Nancy Grace is one of the most disgusting characters in our media today. And Greta van Sustern is no better...

Nancy Grace is horrifying; her show is like her own televised kangaroo court.

re: #212 reuven

Just out of curiosity, what does the New Testament actually say about signs indicating the end times are coming? Is there anything that can even be remotely interpreted as same-sex marriage signaling its arrival? (If so, point me to the relevant section.)

End-Times believers derive ideas from Daniel, John, a few things by Paul--and Revelations most of all--but any verse in the Bible is open to interpreted as eschatological prophecy. Depending on the "prohpech scholar" [Note: does not contain actual scholarship] doing the interpreting, verses and passages are spliced and diced according to esoteric formulae, resulting in timetables of the End Times. Different prophecy scholars (spit!) will have slightly different interpretations of the details.

I want to say "no, there's nothing explicitly about gay marriage" but the very method by which meaning is divined defies that kind of assertion: when you can abstract any given line and run it through a filter of (purported) inspiration, you can transform any line to fit.

233 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 3:51:35pm

prohpech = prophecy.

234 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:00:40pm

re: #232 The Ghost of a Flea

Nancy Grace is horrifying; her show is like her own televised kangaroo court.

re: #212 reuven

End-Times believers derive ideas from Daniel, John, a few things by Paul--and Revelations most of all--but any verse in the Bible is open to interpreted as eschatological prophecy. Depending on the "prohpech scholar" [Note: does not contain actual scholarship] doing the interpreting, verses and passages are spliced and diced according to esoteric formulae, resulting in timetables of the End Times. Different prophecy scholars (spit!) will have slightly different interpretations of the details.

I want to say "no, there's nothing explicitly about gay marriage" but the very method by which meaning is divined defies that kind of assertion: when you can abstract any given line and run it through a filter of (purported) inspiration, you can transform any line to fit.

complete and utter bullshit...make believe on steroids

235 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:06:32pm

re: #232 The Ghost of a Flea

Revelations is a bizarre book. Here's what Jefferson said about it.

"merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."

236 engineer cat  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:06:48pm

re: #225 WindUpBird

The apocalypse is big business!

You think all those so-con Christers read the bible? hah, it's like the terms and service on Itunes. Scroll by that shit, get to the screamin' and the flappin' and the condemnin'!

sadly, the bible mostly does not say what bible thumpers want it to say

237 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:09:10pm

re: #236 engineer dog

That, of course, is why it must be thumped!

238 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:10:51pm

re: #236 engineer dog

sadly, the bible mostly does not say what bible thumpers want it to say

I don't know what's sad about it....these freaks will never have their ducks in a row...it's not about theology, it's about power, same old ancient song

239 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:14:33pm

re: #230 BongCrodny

I never considered Bush an idiot.

But to be fair, I never considered him useful, either.

I don't know, history will tell. It's interesting to think about the hypothetical possibilities with Iraq. Suppose we never invaded. They certainly never would have let inspectors back in with the rivals in Iran working on nukes. I think it's a stretch to tie Iraq's liberation caused the Arab spring. Suppose Iraqis started to rise up with Saddam in power? They certainly wouldn't be able to topple Saddam on their own. Would we put boots on the ground? Would post Saddam Iraq have been better off as an Arab Spring revolt? Worse? Would the post Saddam government be very pro US after we left them hanging so many times in the past? It's all pretty sketchy stuff but Saddam was going to be dealt with eventually, probably by the US. It was only a matter of time.

240 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:16:41pm

with God on your side you can conquer, subject, rape, murder and dominate....makes no difference if your god is the pillar of salt type, Allah, or a monkey that flew outa your butt...it's all the same and it's all unHuman...fuck your monkey butt, sword wielding, power imposing theft of decency

241 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:17:20pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

Saddam would have invaded Iran the minute Dinnerjacket said he had nukes, or was close.

242 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:18:00pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

nice...well asked

243 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:20:11pm

re: #234 albusteve

complete and utter bullshit...make believe on steroids

I concur, but I was trying to expalin the emic logic of the End-Timer.re: #235 ProLifeLiberal

Revelations is a bizarre book. Here's what Jefferson said about it.

I suspect that Revelations suffers from decontextualization of the text from both a cultural set of imagery that is now alien, and the mistaken concept that all prophecy is future-telling. In the time of its circulation it was a veiled critique of Rome combined with an admonition for believers to expect their rewards in the next world, not in this one.

End-Timers claim they are biblical "literalists" and thus deny textual analysis as a tool, but really they're just wholesale obeisant to false prophets who claim to have divined the real meaning of the books...they're not even truly "literal," as they will twist and bend meanings to make events fit.

244 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:24:52pm

re: #241 Cannadian Club Akbar

Saddam would have invaded Iran the minute Dinnerjacket said he had nukes, or was close.

Maybe. Or acquired nukes from Pakistan, or the Norks. He certainly would have started up his chemical weapons program which would be helpful in putting down an Arab Spring revolt too. He had no problem using chemical weapons on his own people.

245 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:26:00pm

re: #221 BishopX

From Mathew 24:

Pardon the copy pasta, the tl;dr is that anyone predicting the end times is full of shit.

yep.

I think the most well-done take on the Weirding of the AmeriChristiPublican Church is by Brad Hicks (aka Infamous Brad). [Link: bradhicks.livejournal.com...] is part one of five for those interested. Between that and The Family, everything makes complete sense. Horrifying, but sense.

246 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:27:50pm

re: #244 Killgore Trout

Maybe. Or acquired nukes from Pakistan, or the Norks. He certainly would have started up his chemical weapons program which would be helpful in putting down an Arab Spring revolt too. He had no problem using chemical weapons on his own people.

Plus, IIRC, Iraq was 80 billion in the hole after Iran/Iraq. Then he went to Kuwait a few years later. (I might be wrong on the dollar amount)

247 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:32:49pm

re: #244 Killgore Trout

Maybe. Or acquired nukes from Pakistan, or the Norks. He certainly would have started up his chemical weapons program which would be helpful in putting down an Arab Spring revolt too. He had no problem using chemical weapons on his own people.

all the while putting pressure on the Saudis who can well afford any weapon known to man...without the US nobody in the region had the balls to stand against Hussein...regretfully, many people, especially younger folks have no real idea what a beast Hussein was or of his capability to protect himself and maintain his power...a real throwback killer

248 engineer cat  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:33:02pm

has there ever been a time anybody can remember when fundies weren't predicting the imminent arrival of the end times?

249 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:33:51pm

re: #242 albusteve

nice...well asked

I was never a the biggest Bush fan and definately wasn't in favor of starting the war in Iraq but I'm practical about it.

250 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:34:41pm

re: #248 engineer dog

has there ever been a time anybody can remember when fundies weren't predicting the imminent arrival of the end times?

Yes.

251 windsagio  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:40:06pm

Totally OT from everything, but I just discovered the terror and glory of "Turkish Star Trek"

252 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:41:10pm

still around 100deg in ABQ...a broiler out there and I gotta head to the market...I tell ya, I'm a heat freak and love the snow and used to be as tough as anyone, weather wise...but this shit is wearing thin, it's relentless, a test of wills

253 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:41:41pm

dinner bell, bbl.

254 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:52:13pm

re: #249 Killgore Trout

I was never a the biggest Bush fan and definately wasn't in favor of starting the war in Iraq but I'm practical about it.

I'm a bigger Bush fan now.

255 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:53:07pm

re: #254 researchok

I'm a bigger Bush fan now.

That's kind of a risque thing to say about Barbara.

256 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:54:30pm

re: #255 darthstar

That's kind of a risque thing to say about Barbara.

And I like her too.

Compared the current crop of GOP leaders, Bush looks mighty good.

257 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:54:47pm

re: #252 albusteve

still around 100deg in ABQ...a broiler out there and I gotta head to the market...I tell ya, I'm a heat freak and love the snow and used to be as tough as anyone, weather wise...but this shit is wearing thin, it's relentless, a test of wills

When I walked to the bank earlier, I was hit by three raindrops. Didn't see any on the sidewalk, and it's sunny now. Just lucky, I guess.

258 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:55:36pm

re: #256 researchok

And I like her too.

Compared the current crop of GOP leaders, Bush looks mighty good.

Okay...that makes more sense...I didn't realize there was a "compared to" implied in your first statement and was beginning to wonder about you.

259 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:56:58pm

re: #258 darthstar

Okay...that makes more sense...I didn't realize there was a "compared to" implied in your first statement and was beginning to wonder about you.

So I'm off the hit list?
/

260 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:57:07pm

re: #252 albusteve

still around 100deg in ABQ...a broiler out there and I gotta head to the market...I tell ya, I'm a heat freak and love the snow and used to be as tough as anyone, weather wise...but this shit is wearing thin, it's relentless, a test of wills

61 and hazy waiting for me at home (marine layer is settling in while it's hot in the valley) - so I get a nice 20 degree drop going home 18 miles.

261 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:57:48pm

re: #259 researchok

So I'm off the hit list?
/

For the moment.

262 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:59:19pm

re: #261 darthstar

For the moment.

FYI, this place has moderated my views quite a bit.

That said, I'm no convert.

263 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 4:59:26pm

re: #256 researchok

And I like her too.

Compared the current crop of GOP leaders, Bush looks mighty good.

Good point.

264 darthstar  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:06:14pm

After 5pm...I think I'll hit the road. See you all in an hour or so (errands beckon).

265 engineer cat  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:06:37pm

re: #256 researchok

And I like her too.

Compared the current crop of GOP leaders, Bush looks mighty good.

at the risk of getting laughed at, i will admit that i like romney better than bush

266 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:07:21pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

Good point.

What I find most interesting (and comforting as well) is when it comes to national security, Obama has kept, expanded or modified many of the Bush era policies despite getting a lot of flack from his base.

Once you sit in the chair and read those PDB's, reality has a way of dictating the proper course of action.

267 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:09:08pm

re: #265 engineer dog

at the risk of getting laughed at, i will admit that i like romney better than bush

I don't care for Romney on a personal level.

No connection.

I liked that Bush was able to laugh at himself (and Obama shares that trait). Speaks volumes about the guy.

268 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:12:33pm

re: #265 engineer dog

The funniest self deprecating Obama line was when he noted 'If my mother knew I wanted to run for the presidency, I would have had a different middle name'- something to that effect.

I laughed for 3 days.

269 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:14:50pm

Not sure how Bush would NOT fit into the current GOP. His administration helped define today's family values candidates. Remember tax breaks for the wealthy? Republicans surely didn't complain about the war, even when it was clear how poorly it was going. Nor did they complain about the Patriot Act. If Obama even dared to do something like that, they'd be screaming Communism (well they do that anyway). All the money Bush spent? Ate right through that giant surplus. If O wanted to form homeland security, he would have been beaten down for adding yet another dept to the government.

Bah....And if Bush killed Osama, we'd still be hearing about it.

270 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:15:17pm

re: #266 researchok

What I find most interesting (and comforting as well) is when it comes to national security, Obama has kept, expanded or modified many of the Bush era policies despite getting a lot of flack from his base.

Once you sit in the chair and read those PDB's, reality has a way of dictating the proper course of action.

Obama has far exceeded my expectations. Especially with the war on terrorism stuff. I think he has a great formula for dealing with terrorists.

271 engineer cat  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:19:25pm

oh, i think romney is able to laugh at himself, i've seen him do it - he just didn't know he was supposed to until his advisors told him

to me what sets him apart from any other prominent republican is his refreshing utter lack of ideologically motivated anger. i get a feeling from him of a cheerful freedom from commitment to any particular agenda except being liked

272 austin_blue  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:19:51pm

re: #244 Killgore Trout

Maybe. Or acquired nukes from Pakistan, or the Norks. He certainly would have started up his chemical weapons program which would be helpful in putting down an Arab Spring revolt too. He had no problem using chemical weapons on his own people.

It's a quibble, but he never used them on Sunnis. *Those* were his people.

273 Bear  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:22:02pm

Good afternoon or evening as the case may be.
Strange weather here today. Couple minutes of sunshine twice so far today. Several minutes of mild rain showers throughout the day and then overcast the remainder of the time. Temperature around 59+/-.

Wonder if it will now be safe to turn on the TV since the Florida trial is over.

274 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:22:42pm

re: #269 marjoriemoon

Not sure how Bush would NOT fit into the current GOP. His administration helped define today's family values candidates. Remember tax breaks for the wealthy? Republicans surely didn't complain about the war, even when it was clear how poorly it was going. Nor did they complain about the Patriot Act. If Obama even dared to do something like that, they'd be screaming Communism (well they do that anyway). All the money Bush spent? Ate right through that giant surplus. If O wanted to form homeland security, he would have been beaten down for adding yet another dept to the government.

Bah...And if Bush killed Osama, we'd still be hearing about it.

I have to disagree with you, MM.

The current crop of GOP leaders are over the toppers who are distinguished by their efforts to outdo each other.

Bush was more of an ideologue/idealist in the sense his ideas were formed by some heavy duty writers.

Certainly his worldview was heavily influenced by Sharansky,

et all

.

.

275 austin_blue  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:23:24pm

re: #271 engineer dog

oh, i think romney is able to laugh at himself, i've seen him do it - he just didn't know he was supposed to until his advisors told him

to me what sets him apart from any other prominent republican is his refreshing utter lack of ideologically motivated anger. i get a feeling from him of a cheerful freedom from commitment to any particular agenda except being liked

Yep, he's just a big ol' puppy in Magic Underwear!

(kidding, kidding people!)

276 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:23:59pm

re: #272 austin_blue

It's a quibble, but he never used them on Sunnis. *Those* were his people.

Heh. Good point.

277 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:24:16pm

re: #271 engineer dog

oh, i think romney is able to laugh at himself, i've seen him do it - he just didn't know he was supposed to until his advisors told him

to me what sets him apart from any other prominent republican is his refreshing utter lack of ideologically motivated anger. i get a feeling from him of a cheerful freedom from commitment to any particular agenda except being liked

That's a fair point.

He's on the AGW plan despite getting hammered by the ideologues.

That indicates (to me at least) a certain intellectual integrity.

278 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:24:31pm

re: #268 researchok

His name is awesome. Considering the history of the US as a melting pot, it is a very American name.

279 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:25:35pm

re: #274 researchok

I have to disagree with you, MM.

The current crop of GOP leaders are over the toppers who are distinguished by their efforts to outdo each other.

Bush was more of an ideologue/idealist in the sense his ideas were formed by some heavy duty writers.

Certainly his worldview was heavily influenced by Sharansky,

Not sure how Sharansky fits in there. Can you elaborate?

Bush helped build the fire that flames the current nuttiness.

280 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:26:14pm

re: #279 marjoriemoon

Not sure how Sharansky fits in there. Can you elaborate?

Bush helped build the fire that flames the current nuttiness.

started with Reagan

281 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:26:54pm

re: #280 WindUpBird

started with Reagan

Indeed. Why I said "helped". It was a group effort.

282 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:27:36pm

re: #278 ProLifeLiberal

His name is awesome. Considering the history of the US as a melting pot, it is a very American name.

To me, it's his substance and not his name that distinguishes him.

Nobody bats 1000, ever. That said, he's on the job.

Can't expect more than that. It's an impossible job and to get up every day and do it says a lot.

283 Lidane  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:28:18pm

re: #251 windsagio

Totally OT from everything, but I just discovered the terror and glory of "Turkish Star Trek"

[Video]

Ahahaha....that's classic. Oddly enough, I'm watching The Wrath of Khan right now.

/cool story bro

284 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:28:48pm

And I was totally behind Bush and the war, though I thought Afghanistan was the better move. Actually, I don't think we should leave either area.

285 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:30:07pm

re: #281 marjoriemoon

Indeed. Why I said "helped". It was a group effort.

TERRI SCHIAVO OVERDRIVE

Schaivo was the last straw for my moderate friends who either voted for or were soft on Bush and the GOP

286 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:31:29pm

re: #279 marjoriemoon

Not sure how Sharansky fits in there. Can you elaborate?

Bush helped build the fire that flames the current nuttiness.

Bush was big on the Sharansky ideas (The Case for Democracy: The Power of Freedom to Overcome Tyranny and Terror) of how democracy was the single best vehicle for change.

I believe Obama's response to the Arab Spring are in no small measure supportive of those ideas.

287 engineer cat  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:32:16pm

re: #275 austin_blue

Yep, he's just a big ol' puppy in Magic Underwear!

(kidding, kidding people!)

that's why i like to call him smiley mcmormonpoodle!

seriously, what makes him dangerous is his reaganlike ability to be unswervingly cheerful and gormless and unquestioningly accept whatever course of action is handed to him by whoever owns him

288 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:33:02pm

re: #285 WindUpBird

TERRI SCHIAVO OVERDRIVE

Schaivo was the last straw for my moderate friends who either voted for or were soft on Bush and the GOP

The Schiavo matter was an utter disaster. The White House had no business getting involved.

289 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:34:58pm

re: #279 marjoriemoon

Not sure how Sharansky fits in there. Can you elaborate?

Bush helped build the fire that flames the current nuttiness.

Also, Bush empowered the right, to be sure, but the craziness has long ago left him in their rear view mirror.

And, they want nothing to do with him.

290 austin_blue  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:36:43pm

re: #284 marjoriemoon

And I was totally behind Bush and the war, though I thought Afghanistan was the better move. Actually, I don't think we should leave either area.

At some point, that got to be weaned off our economic teat. Trying to make tribes act like a country is damn hard.
Tangential story:

When they first built the Fightin' Texas Aggies campus, they didn't put in any sidewalks. Soon enough, paths showed that showed where people *actually* waked as opposed to where the designers *thought* they might walk. Then they put in the sidewalks.

The point is that we can't force a different ethos amongst a people who are so very unlike us socially and culturally. We've got to let them find their path to modernity, which may be very different from ours. And I certainly see no reason to continue to throw our young men and women into that meatgrinder in the name of "nation building". We got the bad guy who masterminded the 9-11 attacks.

How much longer should we stay?

291 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:36:47pm

re: #286 researchok

Bush was big on the Sharansky ideas (The Case for Democracy: The Power of Freedom to Overcome Tyranny and Terror) of how democracy was the single best vehicle for change.

I believe Obama's response to the Arab Spring are in no small measure supportive of those ideas.

Oh yes for sure. Foreign policy stuff, but who in the GOP today has much to say about foreign policy? Gripes about Libya and that's about it.

292 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:37:27pm

re: #288 researchok

The Schiavo matter was an utter disaster. The White House had no business getting involved.

The entire GOP was in on it, recall Bill Frist and his fakeass TV diagnosis, a disgrace to medicine, that guy

293 engineer cat  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:37:37pm

i bet the grody old hackers here can debug this:

"error: unexpected command '/r'"

294 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:37:37pm

re: #288 researchok

The Schiavo matter was an utter disaster. The White House had no business getting involved.

Gov Jeb Bush got involved first.

295 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:37:43pm

re: #273 Bear

Good afternoon or evening as the case may be.
Strange weather here today. Couple minutes of sunshine twice so far today. Several minutes of mild rain showers throughout the day and then overcast the remainder of the time. Temperature around 59+/-.

Wonder if it will now be safe to turn on the TV since the Florida trial is over.

I managed to avoid that brouhaha right up until the after-event comments by the DA or whoever it was on CNN at the bank today. He said he has 11 other child-murders being worked on in his office. And a bunch of adult murders. One would think he only had the one. Ever.

296 austin_blue  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:38:36pm

re: #290 austin_blue

At some point, that have got got to be weaned off our economic teat. Trying to make tribes act like a country is damn hard.
Tangential story:

When they first built the Fightin' Texas Aggies campus, they didn't put in any sidewalks. Soon enough, paths showed that showed where people *actually* waked as opposed to where the designers *thought* they might walk. Then they put in the sidewalks.

The point is that we can't force a different ethos amongst a people who are so very unlike us socially and culturally. We've got to let them find their path to modernity, which may be very different from ours. And I certainly see no reason to continue to throw our young men and women into that meatgrinder in the name of "nation building". We got the bad guy who masterminded the 9-11 attacks.

How much longer should we stay?

PIMF is my friend.

297 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:39:18pm

re: #296 austin_blue

PIMF is my friend.

That's as bad as "The La Brea Tar Pits".

298 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:39:32pm

re: #291 marjoriemoon

Oh yes for sure. Foreign policy stuff, but who in the GOP today has much to say about foreign policy? Gripes about Libya and that's about it.

Oh yeah, the GOP today are a worthless lot.

They are all about obstructionism and care nothing about governance.

They are the poster children for term limits.

Low lifes.

299 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:41:14pm

Well guys... it happened... you know how I talked about one of my family's cats being sickly a week ago?

Yeah, that came to its logical conclusion....

The one bright spot is that the temporary relief shot she got a week ago meant that she was more or less herself again for her last few days, and I was able to say everything I wanted to say to her back on Saturday....

300 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:41:14pm

re: #294 marjoriemoon

Gov Jeb Bush got involved first.

That's OK- it was in the courts in his state. Agree with him or not (I didn't) it was in his purview as governor.

The WH had no business getting involved- none whatsoever.

301 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:41:19pm

re: #287 engineer dog

that's why i like to call him smiley mcmormonpoodle!

seriously, what makes him dangerous is his reaganlike ability to be unswervingly cheerful and gormless and unquestioningly accept whatever course of action is handed to him by whoever owns him

That guy will do WHATEVER THE SO-CONS say to prove his bonafides. I'm guessing he'll have someone on the order of Bachmann as a running mate, because otherwise the tea-party types won't show up

302 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:41:30pm

re: #290 austin_blue

At some point, that got to be weaned off our economic teat. Trying to make tribes act like a country is damn hard.
Tangential story:

When they first built the Fightin' Texas Aggies campus, they didn't put in any sidewalks. Soon enough, paths showed that showed where people *actually* waked as opposed to where the designers *thought* they might walk. Then they put in the sidewalks.

The point is that we can't force a different ethos amongst a people who are so very unlike us socially and culturally. We've got to let them find their path to modernity, which may be very different from ours. And I certainly see no reason to continue to throw our young men and women into that meatgrinder in the name of "nation building". We got the bad guy who masterminded the 9-11 attacks.

How much longer should we stay?

I think killing OBL shows how effective a presence in the area is. He isn't the only one. We've gotten many. How much of a presence, I don't know. There's no way we can let the Taliban/ALQ regroup to the point of pulling off these mass killings again, even if we can't completely control or get rid of them.

303 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:42:25pm

re: #299 jamesfirecat

{{{jamesfirecat}}}

304 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:42:42pm

re: #302 marjoriemoon

I think killing OBL shows how effective a presence in the area is. He isn't the only one. We've gotten many. How much of a presence, I don't know. There's no way we can let the Taliban/ALQ regroup to the point of pulling off these mass killings again, even if we can't completely control or get rid of them.

Amen, amen, amen.

This isn't about politics.

305 engineer cat  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:43:05pm

re: #301 WindUpBird

That guy will do WHATEVER THE SO-CONS say to prove his bonafides. I'm guessing he'll have someone on the order of Bachmann as a running mate, because otherwise the tea-party types won't show up

unfortunately for bachmann tho it seems that she suffers from toxic spouse syndrome

306 austin_blue  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:44:43pm

re: #299 jamesfirecat

Well guys... it happened... you know how I talked about one of my family's cats being sickly a week ago?

Yeah, that came to its logical conclusion...

The one bright spot is that the temporary relief shot she got a week ago meant that she was more or less herself again for her last few days, and I was able to say everything I wanted to say to her back on Saturday...

Sorry, my man. Hardest thing I ever had to do was put my 12 year old cat down. I'd had him longer than my wife. I cried and cried.

307 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:45:22pm

re: #299 jamesfirecat

Well guys... it happened... you know how I talked about one of my family's cats being sickly a week ago?

Yeah, that came to its logical conclusion...

The one bright spot is that the temporary relief shot she got a week ago meant that she was more or less herself again for her last few days, and I was able to say everything I wanted to say to her back on Saturday...

How we treat and relate to our pets and animals in general speaks volumes about who we are a society, culture and as individuals.

Your remarks are most dignified.

308 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:46:13pm

re: #306 austin_blue

Sorry, my man. Hardest thing I ever had to do was put my 12 year old cat down. I'd had him longer than my wife. I cried and cried.

Wow... and he was only 12 years old?

Our cat was 18... and our cat before that was like 25... Chrysanthemum/Chrissy was a tough old bird chaser....

309 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:47:31pm

Rumor has it those cats voted for the other guy.
//

310 engineer cat  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:47:55pm

re: #299 jamesfirecat

ignatz cat sends you all furry thoughts

311 austin_blue  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:48:51pm

re: #308 jamesfirecat

Wow... and he was only 12 years old?

Our cat was 18... and our cat before that was like 25... Chrysanthemum/Chrissy was a tough old bird chaser...

Fibersarcoma at the injection site between his shoulder blades. Ate him alive. Literally.

312 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:55:25pm

re: #306 austin_blue

Sorry, my man. Hardest thing I ever had to do was put my 12 year old cat down. I'd had him longer than my wife. I cried and cried.

EEek. When did you put her down?

*smiles*

When my oldest and first kittah died, BooBoo from kidney failure, she was almost 19. She was at the vet suffering from an episode and I was sitting on the Miami Airport tarmac, stuck for over an hour on a return trip from Tucson. I had to get her the next morning but she had passed in the night.

Now this is kinda weird.... they put her in the freezer overnight, but when I got her, she looked so peaceful. Her head was lying on her paws, eyes closed like she was sleeping. Maybe they put her that way...

Anyway, I took her home and had a kitty wake. I put her in a nice box on the living room floor for the other cats to come and pay respects. They didn't care....

She's in the yard now, flanked by Yogi on one side (he was 20) and Macho on the other (at least 18). I probably cried hardest with BooBoo.

Macho was a love. Here he is in diapers (my poor darling).
Macho

313 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 5:59:26pm

re: #304 researchok

Amen, amen, amen.

This isn't about politics.

of course it is...BO took over and said he had a plan, but he didn't...time went by and the pressure forced him to make a decision....but it was 6 months later when he made the choice to insert 30k troops, that was just over a year ago...nothing much happened when he decides he needs to enforce this political timetable and the polls, so he announces his withdrawal plan, which is no more than an open ended withdrawal of the troops he just put there...BO has definitely played politics with his war, each step dictated by polls or public opinion

314 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:05:57pm

re: #313 albusteve

of course it is...BO took over and said he had a plan, but he didn't...time went by and the pressure forced him to make a decision...but it was 6 months later when he made the choice to insert 30k troops, that was just over a year ago...nothing much happened when he decides he needs to enforce this political timetable and the polls, so he announces his withdrawal plan, which is no more than an open ended withdrawal of the troops he just put there...BO has definitely played politics with his war, each step dictated by polls or public opinion

That's the game.

We need to be in Afghanistan as a preemptive measure.

Realpolitik

315 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:07:37pm

re: #314 researchok

That's the game.

We need to be in Afghanistan as a preemptive measure.

Realpolitik

preemptive to what?...what prize over there is worth the body count?

316 Digital Display  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:07:52pm

I can't believe the verdict today in the Casey Anthony trial...

317 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:08:41pm

I'm Nation Wide
ZZ Top
Texas blues

318 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:08:41pm

re: #316 HoosierHoops

I can't believe the verdict today in the Casey Anthony trial...

Me neither :(

319 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:09:56pm

re: #315 albusteve

preemptive to what?...what prize over there is worth the body count?

If we can keep the Taliban at bay and preclude a terror attack on the homeland- ours and our allies, well, that's what we'll do.

Are you suggesting we go home and wait for another attack so we can come back later?

320 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:10:56pm

re: #316 HoosierHoops

I can't believe the verdict today in the Casey Anthony trial...

Not guilty doesn't mean innocent.

321 austin_blue  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:11:05pm

re: #313 albusteve

of course it is...BO took over and said he had a plan, but he didn't...time went by and the pressure forced him to make a decision...but it was 6 months later when he made the choice to insert 30k troops, that was just over a year ago...nothing much happened when he decides he needs to enforce this political timetable and the polls, so he announces his withdrawal plan, which is no more than an open ended withdrawal of the troops he just put there...BO has definitely played politics with his war, each step dictated by polls or public opinion

Steve,

To be clear, Obama announced the surge in late November of 2009 and said he would start bringing them home in 18 months:

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

and that is exactly what he is doing. If it's politics, it's also the truth.

322 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:11:55pm

re: #320 researchok

Not guilty doesn't mean innocent.

Yea, but it means she ain't going to jail either.

323 austin_blue  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:12:45pm

re: #320 researchok

Not guilty doesn't mean innocent.

I've always liked the English system:

Guilty
Not Proven
Innocent

324 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:13:43pm

re: #319 researchok

If we can keep the Taliban at bay and preclude a terror attack on the homeland- ours and our allies, well, that's what we'll do.

Are you suggesting we go home and wait for another attack so we can come back later?

the Taliban couldn't find their own ass with both hands outside of their homeland...by themselves the Talis are no threat to the US

325 Digital Display  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:13:54pm

re: #320 researchok

Not guilty doesn't mean innocent.

In either case she walks...I don't know what more evidence you need besides a youtube video these days

326 albusteve  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:15:56pm

re: #321 austin_blue

Steve,

To be clear, Obama announced the surge in late November of 2009 and said he would start bringing them home in 18 months:

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

and that is exactly what he is doing. If it's politics, it's also the truth.

it's not the way to fight and kill bad guys...that's the truth

327 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:17:17pm

re: #323 austin_blue

I've always liked the English system:

Guilty
Not Proven
Innocent

To be precise, it's Guilty, Not Guilty (and Not Proven)

328 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:18:41pm

re: #325 HoosierHoops

In either case she walks...I don't know what more evidence you need besides a youtube video these days

The lesson, I guess, sometimes circumstantial evidence convicts and sometimes it doesn't.

329 austin_blue  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:19:43pm

re: #325 HoosierHoops

In either case she walks...I don't know what more evidence you need besides a youtube video these days

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, just like always. You have it or you don't. Obviously, the jury did not believe that the prosecution proved its case. That's the system.

Does it let the guilty walk sometimes? Sure. But it also, more often than not, keeps the innocent from being convicted.

Do I think she was guilty? It really doesn't matter. I have sat on two murder juries. One conviction, one not. I didn't sit on this one. So I cannot have an opinion.

330 Digital Display  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:24:54pm

re: #329 austin_blue

Well I guess all I know is if I wanna murder somebody I'm putting Jose on speed dial...The dude spun the whole story...

331 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:25:42pm

re: #329 austin_blue

11 hours of deliberation on a murder case isn't very long.

332 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:28:39pm

re: #329 austin_blue

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, just like always. You have it or you don't. Obviously, the jury did not believe that the prosecution proved its case. That's the system.

Does it let the guilty walk sometimes? Sure. But it also, more often than not, keeps the innocent from being convicted.

Do I think she was guilty? It really doesn't matter. I have sat on two murder juries. One conviction, one not. I didn't sit on this one. So I cannot have an opinion.

Well, dangit, I didn't sit on this jury and I have an opinion!!

I don't know what happened. The jury is supposed to know more than the public knows, as bizarre as that sounds considering the media saturation. The prosecution seemed to do an outstanding job. There's not much else to say, other than a little girl is still dead and no one seems to be responsible.

333 researchok  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:29:03pm

re: #324 albusteve

the Taliban couldn't find their own ass with both hands outside of their homeland...by themselves the Talis are no threat to the US

They don't have to do anything. All they have to do is open the door for AQ.

334 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:30:30pm

re: #325 HoosierHoops

Hello, you!

335 Digital Display  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:31:15pm

re: #334 Floral Giraffe

Hello, you!

Hi You! Hope today finds you well!

336 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:32:11pm

re: #335 HoosierHoops

Hi You! Hope today finds you well!

And you as well!
How's Winston, and the summer?

337 Digital Display  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:35:46pm

re: #336 Floral Giraffe

And you as well!
How's Winston, and the summer?

It's so hot here.. I went out to a Casino last night and played James Bond..( I suck at gambling ) :)
Great fireworks afterwards..So it was pretty fun..How bout you?

338 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:40:37pm

re: #337 HoosierHoops

Miss you.

339 prairiefire  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:58:49pm

re: #315 albusteve

preemptive to what?...what prize over there is worth the body count?

A local man who was a ranger was killed in last weeks big bombng. He was 26 and has an 8 month old girl. They lowered the area's flag to half mast on the 4th to honor him.

340 prairiefire  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 6:59:47pm

re: #331 Floral Giraffe

11 hours of deliberation on a murder case isn't very long.

I think it was just 9 hours.

341 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 7:37:59pm

re: #71 Gus 802

You think all of that "American slavery stuff" would have pissed him off first.

Being able to own God's Cursed People™ is a part of the Blessings of Liberty®.

Big Government coming in and disallowing God's Favorite Patriots© their right to do so is discrimination. And racist.

342 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Jul 5, 2011 7:46:29pm

re: #297 wrenchwench

That's as bad as "The La Brea Tar Pits".


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