Did Obama Really Offer Cuts in Social Security?

Or did the Washington Post exaggerate?
Politics • Views: 27,242

Here’s a thread to discuss the latest reports on the debt ceiling talks, as President Obama reportedly offers to make cuts in Social Security.

As part of his pitch, Obama is proposing significant reductions in Medicare spending and for the first time is offering to tackle the rising cost of Social Security, according to people in both parties with knowledge of the proposal. The move marks a major shift for the White House and could present a direct challenge to Democratic lawmakers who have vowed to protect health and retirement benefits from the assault on government spending.

“Obviously, there will be some Democrats who don’t believe we need to do entitlement reform. But there seems to be some hunger to do something of some significance,” said a Democratic official familiar with the administration’s thinking. “These moments come along at most once a decade. And it would be a real mistake if we let it pass us by.”

Rather than roughly $2 trillion in savings, the White House is now seeking a plan that would slash more than $4 trillion from annual budget deficits over the next decade, stabilize borrowing, and defuse the biggest budgetary time bombs that are set to explode as the cost of health care rises and the nation’s population ages.

That would represent a major legislative achievement, but it would also put Obama and GOP leaders at odds with major factions of their own parties. While Democrats would be asked to cut social-safety-net programs, Republicans would be asked to raise taxes, perhaps by letting tax breaks for the nation’s wealthiest households expire on schedule at the end of next year.

That’s the Washington Post’s take, anyway — but White House spokesman Jay Carney said today that their report was exaggerated and “overwritten:” White House: No Change In Obama’s Position On Social Security.

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234 comments
1 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:13:39pm

Keep your government hands off my Social Security!!!

2 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:15:39pm

It's not the same thing as cut, it's a slash...and I don't mean the guitarist."
Carney is funny.:)

3 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:16:56pm

And the media half-asses yet another story.

Malice or incompetence, hard to tell.

4 makeitstop  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:17:25pm

Benen just put up a post quoting top Dems - and the constant thread therein is that benefits are untouchable, in both Medicare and Social Security.

So it looks like they'll offer cuts in other areas, if at all.

5 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:17:45pm

Really, if it's true, then it puts the GOP is one hell of a pickle. Are they willing to forsake an historical opportunity to get virtually everything they wanted...just because doing some means saying yes to tax increases?

6 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:18:44pm
That’s the Washington Post’s take, anyway — but White House spokesman Jay Carney said today that their report was exaggerated and “overwritten:” White House: No Change In Obama’s Position On Social Security.


I watched the press conference this morning. The press was being extra annoying trying to parse words like cuts vs slashing, and the exact meaning of "significant reductions", etc. They were obviously trying to force language and read between the lines of various sound bites. We'll have to wait and see but I don't trust any of the reporting on this.

7 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:19:47pm

re: #3 Obdicut

And the media half-asses yet another story.

Malice or incompetence, hard to tell.

You left out laziness.

8 Simply Sarah  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:19:56pm

re: #5 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Really, if it's true, then it puts the GOP is one hell of a pickle. Are they willing to forsake an historical opportunity to get virtually everything they wanted...just because doing some means saying yes to tax increases?

I like pickles and all, but if the cost of putting the GOP into one is potentially further eviscerating what little remains of the social safety net and further screwing over those of us that aren't millionaires, you can count me out.

9 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:19:59pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

I read it as he is open to small reductions in benefits, IF it's a necessary part of a larger beneficial deal.

10 freetoken  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:22:11pm

re: #9 Rightwingconspirator

I took it as merely a negotiations ploy, trying to force the GOP to own what it really would mean to balance the budget without any tax raises.

11 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:23:47pm

re: #9 Rightwingconspirator

I read it as he is open to small reductions in benefits, IF it's a necessary part of a larger beneficial deal.

I think that's probably the case. Medicare is going to require tweaking. Usually Medicare and social security are too politically dangerous to touch but Republicans handed Obama a perfect opportunity. By proposing to destroy medicare in the Ryan Budget Obama looks fine by comparison in agreeing to small reductions.

12 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:25:09pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

I think that's probably the case. Medicare is going to require tweaking. Usually Medicare and social security are too politically dangerous to touch but Republicans handed Obama a perfect opportunity. By proposing to destroy medicare in the Ryan Budget Obama looks fine by comparison in agreeing to small reductions.

It doesn't have to mean a reduction in benefits. There are other ways to cut the costs of Medicare.

13 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:26:22pm

re: #8 Simply Sarah

I like pickles and all, but if the cost of putting the GOP into one is potentially further eviscerating what little remains of the social safety net and further screwing over those of us that aren't millionaires, you can count me out.

I don't think either dill or bread and butter Republicans would sell. Sounds like a waste of good spices to me.
/

14 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:27:32pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

You left out laziness.

yeah, sloth itself...
I give up

15 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:28:59pm

re: #14 albusteve

yeah, sloth itself...
I give up

Better off watching the BBC News for Wombats...

16 Simply Sarah  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:29:34pm

re: #10 freetoken

I took it as merely a negotiations ploy, trying to force the GOP to own what it really would mean to balance the budget without any tax raises.

We can only hope, although I don't think I have your level of optimism. I'm also wondering why SS is anywhere on the table at all, since it has absolutely nothing to do with the current deficits.

17 freetoken  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:29:36pm

Indeed, the funding amendment offered by the House appropriations committee yesterday, for NASA, DOT, and DoJ, which offered as its big cut the elimination of the James Webb Space Telescope, is another such ploy.

The JWST is the #1 item on astronomy spending for space and the crown jewel in the next decade's satellites. Cutting it is causing all sorts of uproar in the science community.

That's what it's supposed to do. The Appropriations committee is looking for negotiating room as the GOP, which runs it, is self-conflicted. The Tea Partying members don't seem to realize there are other Republicans who want the money spent in their districts, and the Dems couldn't care as much because the number of constituents for astronomy is pretty small compared to other groups.

So the Appropriations committee sends out an amendment sure to raise eyebrows in the hope that the Administration will counter offer with something around which the GOP can rally (in opposition), or force the Administration to cut somewhere else.

18 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:30:44pm

"said an official"
"anonymous sources"
"speaking off the record"

19 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:33:31pm

re: #12 blueraven

It doesn't have to mean a reduction in benefits. There are other ways to cut the costs of Medicare.

Yeah, it could be anything; reducing administrative costs, etc. That's why I'm not going to get excited about this until we know what they're actually talking about.

20 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:33:34pm

re: #8 Simply Sarah

I like pickles and all, but if the cost of putting the GOP into one is potentially further eviscerating what little remains of the social safety net and further screwing over those of us that aren't millionaires, you can count me out.

It's political brinkmanship at its finest. The Democrats are putting more and more on the table, making the Republicans look more and more like self-serving pricks for continuing to insist that getting everything they want really isn't everything they want, so long as tax increases remains on the table. It helps the narrative that the Republicans are willing to sell the whole country out, just so long as the rich can keep their tax increases.

21 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:35:27pm

Jindal compares women seeking abortion to criminals...

"When officers arrest criminals today, they are read their rights," he said. "Now if we're giving criminals their basic rights and they have to be informed of those rights, it seems to me only common sense we would have to do the same thing for women before they make the choice about whether to get an abortion."

Because everyone knows that women who want an abortion aren't really sure about whether or not they have the right to keep it.

22 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:36:22pm

re: #20 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It's political brinkmanship at its finest. The Democrats are putting more and more on the table, making the Republicans look more and more like self-serving pricks for continuing to insist that getting everything they want really isn't everything they want, so long as tax increases remains on the table. It helps the narrative that the Republicans are willing to sell the whole country out, just so long as the rich can keep their tax increases.

I think Republicans are going to end up with the short end of the stick again.

23 dragonfire1981  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:36:44pm

A debt ceiling raise has to first be approved by the House doesn't it? That could be a problem because the House is GOP controlled and I would be stunned if they were willing to pass a bill that included tax increases for everyone let alone the wealthy.

24 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:37:00pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

Yeah, it could be anything; reducing administrative costs, etc. That's why I'm not going to get excited about this until we know what they're actually talking about.

is that possible for ordinary people, or do we all need a crash course in Beltway Jargonese?

25 Simply Sarah  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:37:58pm

re: #20 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It's political brinkmanship at its finest. The Democrats are putting more and more on the table, making the Republicans look more and more like self-serving pricks for continuing to insist that getting everything they want really isn't everything they want, so long as tax increases remains on the table. It helps the narrative that the Republicans are willing to sell the whole country out, just so long as the rich can keep their tax increases.

I'm just worried about what happens if the GOP refuses to blink. Even if it hurts them politically, the collateral damage to the country as a whole could be immense. I admit, I'm a bit despondent over all this (Which, I'm sure, you could have never guessed).

26 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:38:01pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

I think Republicans are going to end up with the short end of the stick again.

The clock's clicking down faster and faster for them. The more they continue to cling to demands for tax increases to be taken off the table, the less they look like "small government" crusaders and more like bagmen for the top 2%.

27 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:38:40pm

re: #21 JasonA

Jindal compares women seeking abortion to criminals...

Because everyone knows that women who want an abortion aren't really sure about whether or not they have the right to keep it.

Ernesto Miranda is rolling in his grave.

28 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:38:46pm

re: #24 albusteve

"His position is unchanged" really means his position has changed & may change more for the duration of the negotiations.

29 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:38:59pm

re: #21 JasonA

Jindal compares women seeking abortion to criminals...

Because everyone knows that women who want an abortion aren't really sure about whether or not they have the right to keep it.

Such an idiotic thing to say. He really has a talent for bullshit like that.

30 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:39:38pm

re: #25 Simply Sarah

I'm just worried about what happens if the GOP refuses to blink. Even if it hurts them politically, the collateral damage to the country as a whole could be immense. I admit, I'm a bit despondent over all this (Which, I'm sure, you could have never guessed).

I admit, I worry about that myself. I can't help but see the GOP now as a party of ideological fanatics, having strapped a vest bomb labeled "Tea Party" around their midsections, threatening to hit the detonator and take the economy with them unless their demands are met.

31 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:40:07pm

re: #23 dragonfire1981

A debt ceiling raise has to first be approved by the House doesn't it? That could be a problem because the House is GOP controlled and I would be stunned if they were willing to pass a bill that included tax increases for everyone let alone the wealthy.

They also dont want to be responsible for the stock market sinking like a stone and a crippled economy. Remember when they voted against the bailout in '08? They came around pdq with another vote after the market fell about 700 points in one day.

32 makeitstop  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:40:08pm

re: #25 Simply Sarah

I'm just worried about what happens if the GOP refuses to blink. Even if it hurts them politically, the collateral damage to the country as a whole could be immense. I admit, I'm a bit despondent over all this (Which, I'm sure, you could have never guessed).

I don't think their rich friends will let them not blink. They've known for weeks that not raising the debt ceiling is impossible - they're just wringing every bit of theater out of it so that the TP/Crazy faction will think that they 'fought to the very end.'

33 freetoken  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:41:21pm

We should not underestimate the self-induced stupidity of some of these folks who want to enforce the no-debt-limit-raise at all costs. Many of them have convinced themselves that the all the strata that compose the Grand Canyon were laid down, and then the Canyon itself carved out, in less than 190 days by a single flood.

34 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:41:57pm

re: #32 makeitstop

I don't think their rich friends will let them not blink. They've known for weeks that not raising the debt ceiling is impossible - they're just wringing every bit of theater out of it so that the TP/Crazy faction will think that they 'fought to the very end.'

Not raising the limit would hurt their rich little friends a lot more than the proposed taxes ever could.

35 Kragar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:42:03pm

re: #21 JasonA

Jindal compares women seeking abortion to criminals...

Because everyone knows that women who want an abortion aren't really sure about whether or not they have the right to keep it.

A man not worth the effort it would take to spit on.

36 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:42:36pm

re: #32 makeitstop

I don't think their rich friends will let them not blink. They've known for weeks that not raising the debt ceiling is impossible - they're just wringing every bit of theater out of it so that the TP/Crazy faction will think that they 'fought to the very end.'

You're being optimistic, thinking that the TPGOP is organized around one leadership and one purpose. If only a nutcase faction holds to their delusions, the needed action will not get through.

37 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:43:44pm

re: #30 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I admit, I worry about that myself. I can't help but see the GOP now as a party of ideological fanatics, having strapped a vest bomb labeled "Tea Party" around their midsections, threatening to hit the detonator and take the economy with them unless their demands are met.

it will all pass and the furor will subside til the Next Great Threat....bet me...with all that's amiss in the world I can't get too excited over a bunch of political posturing over debt and taxes...might as well get used to it

38 Simply Sarah  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:44:18pm

re: #32 makeitstop

I don't think their rich friends will let them not blink. They've known for weeks that not raising the debt ceiling is impossible - they're just wringing every bit of theater out of it so that the TP/Crazy faction will think that they 'fought to the very end.'

Perhaps so, but then what? What happens if the Republicans call Obama's (What many people here seem to feel is one) bluff on Medicare/SS?

39 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:44:29pm

re: #35 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A man not worth the effort it would take to spit on.

if you do not believe in volcanos, what good are you?

40 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:44:39pm

re: #21 JasonA

Jindal compares women seeking abortion to criminals...

Because everyone knows that women who want an abortion aren't really sure about whether or not they have the right to keep it.

remember when people thought he was a presidential contender?

41 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:44:42pm

re: #35 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A man not worth the effort it would take to spit on.

Go ahead. It'll make you feel better.

42 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:45:02pm

re: #40 WindUpBird

remember when people thought he was a presidential contender?

And then they heard him speak...

43 makeitstop  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:46:04pm

re: #36 Decatur Deb

You're being optimistic, thinking that the TPGOP is organized around one leadership and one purpose. If only a nutcase faction holds to their delusions, the needed action will not get through.

I firmly believe that given the choice between people who pump millions of dollars into campaign chests and rigid ideologues without much money, Congressional Republicans will drop the ideologues like a bad habit.

Maybe that's too optimistic - but guys like Boehner and Cantor know on which side their bread is buttered.

44 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:46:06pm

re: #38 Simply Sarah

Perhaps so, but then what? What happens if the Republicans call Obama's (What many people here seem to feel is one) bluff on Medicare/SS?

No one quite knows, the leading world economy had never trashed its credit before. These people are like children playing with a grenade--maybe it's a dud.

45 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:46:14pm

re: #39 albusteve

if you do not believe in volcanos, what good are you?

that was the funniest thing to anyone who grew up in Seattle

VOLCANOES?!?! since when are volcanoes a problem? Aren't they made up, like Narnia or Wookiees?

46 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:46:25pm

re: #40 WindUpBird

remember when people thought he was a presidential contender?

any nutbag can be a contender...to hell with plate tectonics

47 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:46:34pm

re: #42 JasonA

And then they heard him speak...

Too bad there's no Office of Exorcism!

48 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:46:58pm

re: #43 makeitstop

I firmly believe that given the choice between people who pump millions of dollars into campaign chests and rigid ideologues without much money, Congressional Republicans will drop the ideologues like a bad habit.

Maybe that's too optimistic - but guys like Boehner and Cantor know on which side their bread is buttered.

Yeah, but they still need the votes. It's complicated.

49 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:47:54pm

re: #47 WindUpBird

Too bad there's no Office of Exorcism!

HooDoo Czar
Juju Commission
etc

50 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:48:24pm

re: #43 makeitstop

I firmly believe that given the choice between people who pump millions of dollars into campaign chests and rigid ideologues without much money, Congressional Republicans will drop the ideologues like a bad habit.

Maybe that's too optimistic - but guys like Boehner and Cantor know on which side their bread is buttered.

Hope you're right--it all depends on how many real nutcases have been elected and how many Blue Dog Dems are just as crazy.

51 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:48:52pm

re: #44 Decatur Deb

No one quite knows, the leading world economy had never trashed its credit before. These people are like children playing with a grenade--maybe it's a dud.

MAAAYBE SOMETHING BAD?

MAAAYBE SOMETHING GOOD!

52 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:50:00pm

re: #49 albusteve

HooDoo Czar
Juju Commission
etc

The Joint Witch Doctors of Staff

53 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:50:49pm

re: #51 WindUpBird

MAAAYBE SOMETHING BAD?

MAAAYBE SOMETHING GOOD!

[Video]

Exactly. Is that Ren and Stimpy?

54 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:51:54pm

re: #38 Simply Sarah

Perhaps so, but then what? What happens if the Republicans call Obama's (What many people here seem to feel is one) bluff on Medicare/SS?

Then maybe Obama will use the NUCLEAR OPTION!!
Maybe that's what the republicans really want in the end, as much as they pretend not to.
No vote, no taxes and they can try to impeach.

55 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:53:00pm

re: #52 WindUpBird

The Joint Witch Doctors of Staff

Bobby 'the Bust' Jindal....
he works the docks down near 54th Street now

56 Jaerik  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:56:09pm

Given AARP's reversal on social security changes under the guise that increasing the retirement age is not the same as slashing benefits, I bet that's where Obama's going with this as well.

Personally, I'm in agreement. 65 just isn't what it used to be. I'm 30 now, and I really doubt 65 is going to feel like retirement age after 35 more years of scientific and social progress.

57 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:57:57pm

re: #54 blueraven

Then maybe Obama will use the NUCLEAR OPTION!!
Maybe that's what the republicans really want in the end, as much as they pretend not to.
No vote, no taxes and they can try to impeach.

there is such a thing as the Jamaican Option....you take your AK over to the next barrio and kill your political opponents...are we headed for that place?

58 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:59:27pm

re: #24 albusteve

is that possible for ordinary people, or do we all need a crash course in Beltway Jargonese?

We'll know once the strike a deal.

59 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:59:33pm

re: #56 Jaerik

Given AARP's reversal on social security changes under the guise that increasing the retirement age is not the same as slashing benefits, I bet that's where Obama's going with this as well.

Personally, I'm in agreement. 65 just isn't what it used to be. I'm 30 now, and I really doubt 65 is going to feel like retirement age after 35 more years of scientific and social progress.

Depends on the nature of the workplace. Your body might hold up, only to find that your brain hase a max lifetime capacity for bullshit.

60 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:59:36pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

I think Republicans are going to end up with the short end of the stick again.

The long end of the stick is being held by the people with guaranteed retirement and health benefits. plenty of R's and D's on that end.

Guess which end most of us are on?

61 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:59:41pm

re: #57 albusteve

there is such a thing as the Jamaican Option...you take your AK over to the next barrio and kill your political opponents...are we headed for that place?

Seems like it at times.

62 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:03:10pm

Crazy Pam has a howler up today, tying the ATF gun running scandal to Hezbollah in Mexico. If you follow her source link over to Director Blue you'll find radical Islamist Mexicans are getting Sharia compliant tattoos.

63 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:03:23pm

re: #60 Gepetto

The long end of the stick is being held by the people with guaranteed retirement and health benefits. plenty of R's and D's on that end.

Guess which end most of us are on?

hide you money

64 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:03:28pm

re: #56 Jaerik

Given AARP's reversal on social security changes under the guise that increasing the retirement age is not the same as slashing benefits, I bet that's where Obama's going with this as well.

Personally, I'm in agreement. 65 just isn't what it used to be. I'm 30 now, and I really doubt 65 is going to feel like retirement age after 35 more years of scientific and social progress.

65 will be the new 45. Get to work!

Oh and dead will be the new 70 ;-)

65 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:05:08pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam has a howler up today, tying the ATF gun running scandal to Hezbollah in Mexico. If you follow her source link over to Director Blue you'll find radical Islamist Mexicans are getting Sharia compliant tattoos.

no matter how much negative attention this story gets from Fox or Geller or whoever, it's real and it's not going away

66 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:06:33pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam has a howler up today, tying the ATF gun running scandal to Hezbollah in Mexico. If you follow her source link over to Director Blue you'll find radical Islamist Mexicans are getting Sharia compliant tattoos.

...

67 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:08:04pm

re: #65 albusteve

no matter how much negative attention this story gets from Fox or Geller or whoever, it's real and it's not going away

Yes it's real, but it's not the Tom Clancy novel the loons are making it. Bunch of people will lose their jobs, and someone might go to jail if their lawyers suck.

68 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:08:06pm

re: #66 JasonA

...

I ran that through the translator:

S

69 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:09:30pm

re: #64 WindUpBird

I like raising the benefit age in concert with the longer average working life span. Or in part anyway. Two changes I like-Push full benefits out two years. 67. Lift the maximum income for s/s withholding to two million a year.

Medicare- I'd really like to see that tax increased to provide better benefits. From $50,000 on up. I'd also like to see a buy in option for those dropped by insurance at any age.

70 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:10:22pm

re: #68 wrenchwench

I ran that through the translator:

S

I was just speechless.

71 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:10:50pm

re: #67 Decatur Deb

Yes it's real, but it's not the Tom Clancy novel the loons are making it. Bunch of people will lose their jobs, and someone might go to jail if their lawyers suck.

I have no concern about any loons, freaks or nutters...it's not about them, except here of course...trying to stay down the middle gets harder every month

72 Simply Sarah  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:10:54pm

re: #70 JasonA

I was just speechless.

Well, clearly not. You said "S".

73 justaminute  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:10:55pm

I would be happy to see the Social Security cap on wages of $106,000 raised. That would keep it solvent for quite a long time.

74 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:10:58pm

re: #65 albusteve

no matter how much negative attention this story gets from Fox or Geller or whoever, it's real and it's not going away

It might go away sooner than you think. There will be an official internal investigation. But Fox News is hyping a conspiracy theory that the ATF used Stimulus funds to smuggle the weapons to Mexican drug lords. It's getting absurd. I was just reading Hot Air and readers are outraged that the latest bogus angle on the scandal isn't on the front page yet.

75 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:12:18pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

It might go away sooner than you think. There will be an official internal investigation. But Fox News is hyping a conspiracy theory that the ATF used Stimulus funds to smuggle the weapons to Mexican drug lords. It's getting absurd. I was just reading Hot Air and readers are outraged that the latest bogus angle on the scandal isn't on the front page yet.

That was sourced from Weasel Zippers.

76 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:12:25pm

re: #71 albusteve

I have no concern about any loons, freaks or nutters...it's not about them, except here of course...trying to stay down the middle gets harder every month

Booze and outdoor exercise help. Shouldn't you be walking yet?

77 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:13:52pm

re: #73 justaminute

I would be happy to see the Social Security cap on wages of $106,000 raised. That would keep it solvent for quite a long time.

It should always have been indexed to a pay rate.

78 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:14:09pm

re: #75 wrenchwench

That was sourced from Weasel Zippers.

Yup. The "scandal" keeps getting dumber by the day.

79 Stanghazi  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:14:11pm

re: #68 wrenchwench

I ran that through the translator:

S

.-- .. -. --. -. ..- -
-- .- -. .. .-

Wingnut mania. All I could think of.

80 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:15:35pm

re: #76 Decatur Deb

Booze and outdoor exercise help. Shouldn't you be walking yet?

so damned close I can taste it...I'm in the process now with therapy and measurements and casts etc....there is a leg out there with my name on it...another week or so...thanks for asking...I'm about frantic with anxiety and expectation...a lot of deep breaths

81 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:16:32pm

re: #80 albusteve

so damned close I can taste it...I'm in the process now with therapy and measurements and casts etc...there is a leg out there with my name on it...another week or so...thanks for asking...I'm about frantic with anxiety and expectation...a lot of deep breaths

Wow, that's coming up fast.

82 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:17:02pm

re: #80 albusteve

so damned close I can taste it...I'm in the process now with therapy and measurements and casts etc...there is a leg out there with my name on it...another week or so...thanks for asking...I'm about frantic with anxiety and expectation...a lot of deep breaths

Good timing, what with the crappy weather/air right now.

83 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:19:19pm

re: #81 Killgore Trout

Wow, that's coming up fast.

I can't tell anymore...I'm spent bro

84 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:19:49pm

You're Gonna Miss Me

85 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:22:41pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Damn.. That's about 3 times the talent of Lady Gaga.

86 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:22:51pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

You're Gonna Miss Me

[Video]

That was great! But that's a cup, not a lampshade.

87 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:24:46pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

You're Gonna Miss Me

[Video]

my daughter, in her college days used to do this with her friends...6-8 of them at a time doing all sorts of cool stuff, they were really good, using beer cups, pitchers, shot glasses etc...somewhere in America, inside a garage, after hours there is genius being expressed...I was there

88 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:26:51pm

re: #87 albusteve

Here's some inspiration for you....
Adam's first time back at the gym

My first time back at a gymnastics gym since I lost my leg to cancer in 2009


89 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:27:55pm

re: #85 Decatur Deb

Damn.. That's about 3 times the talent of Lady Gaga.

I can't wait until autotune goes out of style.

90 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:28:29pm

Evening work. BBL:

91 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:31:43pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

Here's some inspiration for you...
Adam's first time back at the gym

[Video]

that is just so cool....I have free access to my therapy gym and am shedding poundage and getting stronger everyday...I'm not up to backflips yet like that cat tho...I just want to ski again...I miss that so much I could cry...I will, I swear it

92 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:33:22pm

Ugh.

An old high school friend, brilliant and very liberal, is apparently part of the anti-vaccine group. She just posted an anti-MMR vaccine thing on facebook.

No, she's not the only one I know. Another mother said that the vaccines are just "risky" so she'd prefer not to.

Of course, her children never will get sick because my children took those "risky" vaccines and so did the other kids around her kids. This is the same woman that once stated that well, she's drunk unpasteurized milk before and she didn't get sick so she doesn't see why it needs to be pasteurized.

(A woman who understands neither history, nor statistics, nor microbiology. Not sure what's up with the first friend. She's very bright and should understand all of those things.)

93 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:36:09pm

re: #91 albusteve

that is just so cool...I have free access to my therapy gym and am shedding poundage and getting stronger everyday...I'm not up to backflips yet like that cat tho...I just want to ski again...I miss that so much I could cry...I will, I swear it

I've seen one legged guys on the slopes before. They usually use poles with little skis on them for balance. Looks pretty doable. You'll do fine.

94 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:41:11pm

re: #93 Killgore Trout

I've seen one legged guys on the slopes before. They usually use poles with little skis on them for balance. Looks pretty doable. You'll do fine.

I used to date a guy, back in the late 70s who had lost a leg in Vietnam. He went skiing all the time.

I am sure the equipment is much better now. You can do it Steve!

95 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:47:04pm

re: #94 blueraven

I used to date a guy, back in the late 70s who had lost a leg in Vietnam. He went skiing all the time.

I am sure the equipment is much better now. You can do it Steve!

I've mentioned before that I used to work with Brett Wolf. The guy's a monster on the trail, only person I've ever known who could snap a crank arm from a standing start. It got to be such a problem that he had to work on controlling his impulse float.

96 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:53:47pm

re: #93 Killgore Trout

I've seen one legged guys on the slopes before. They usually use poles with little skis on them for balance. Looks pretty doable. You'll do fine.

I have my knee...I just need a lower leg to stick a boot on...I'm gonna buy shorter parabolics and hit the black diamonds...no fear

97 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:07:55pm

re: #96 albusteve

I have my knee...I just need a lower leg to stick a boot on...I'm gonna buy shorter parabolics and hit the black diamonds...no fear

Last time I was in a lift area a few years ago I had my tele skis on and decided to teach myself to ski backwards. Lot's of cheers and laughs from other skiers. By the end of the day about half of the people on the slopes were going down backwards. Pretty funny.

98 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:08:13pm
99 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:09:26pm

re: #96 albusteve

I have my knee...I just need a lower leg to stick a boot on...I'm gonna buy shorter parabolics and hit the black diamonds...no fear

That's the attitude. Let me know when you're ready and I'll comp your lift tickets.

100 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:10:41pm

re: #92 EmmmieG

Ugh.

An old high school friend, brilliant and very liberal, is apparently part of the anti-vaccine group. She just posted an anti-MMR vaccine thing on facebook.

No, she's not the only one I know. Another mother said that the vaccines are just "risky" so she'd prefer not to.

Of course, her children never will get sick because my children took those "risky" vaccines and so did the other kids around her kids. This is the same woman that once stated that well, she's drunk unpasteurized milk before and she didn't get sick so she doesn't see why it needs to be pasteurized.

(A woman who understands neither history, nor statistics, nor microbiology. Not sure what's up with the first friend. She's very bright and should understand all of those things.)

My daughter-in-law used to be one of those anti-vaxxers until there was a mumps outbreak in the neighborhood. That put the fear of G-D in her and she got my grandkids vaccinated PDQ.

Also, did you know that vaccinations must be repeated when kids are teenagers? This is what caused the mumps outbreak! Most of the people who came down with it were vaccinated as babies, but not when they were teens!

101 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:12:48pm

The Undefeated Teaser Trailer


Yes, it's real.
102 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:13:32pm

re: #98 Varek Raith

Rep. Broun Takes GOP Debt Stance To Logical Conclusion: Lower The Debt Ceiling
Facepalmariffic!

I'll take "Things you can't actually do" for a billion, Trebek.

103 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:14:04pm

re: #100 Alouette

My daughter-in-law used to be one of those anti-vaxxers until there was a mumps outbreak in the neighborhood. That put the fear of G-D in her and she got my grandkids vaccinated PDQ.

Also, did you know that vaccinations must be repeated when kids are teenagers? This is what caused the mumps outbreak! Most of the people who came down with it were vaccinated as babies, but not when they were teens!

If more people actually did their genealogy, they wouldn't be so silly.

My ancestors didn't lose two kids and a spouse in one week from birth defects.

104 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:14:11pm

Of course, of course...

105 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:14:55pm

Transformers 4 is 50x summer movie fun. It was hysterical. I'm not kidding.

106 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:15:23pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

Last time I was in a lift area a few years ago I had my tele skis on and decided to teach myself to ski backwards. Lot's of cheers and laughs from other skiers. By the end of the day about half of the people on the slopes were going down backwards. Pretty funny.


I did a lot of x country skiing back in the day...still have my metal edge Rossis...I loved it, but it pales compared to downhill...I can test my fear quotient going downhill, and I have...when you get into a shute below the lift towers with 30ft drops down to the snow, you better buckle up...a lot can go wrong if you fuck up, but on little 185's I can ski backwards with the best of them

107 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:17:48pm

re: #99 darthstar

That's the attitude. Let me know when you're ready and I'll comp your lift tickets.

heh...I was thinking about you...you'd ski circles around me no doubt, but I will not fear the run, no way...whatever it takes to get down I'll do it

108 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:18:23pm

re: #106 albusteve

no fall zones - that's the best part. There are some cornices on the back bowls at Alpine that will make your butt pucker...but you can't enter them gingerly, or you'll hurt yourself...you have to commit and trust that you can slow yourself down later (if you don't trust you can slow yourself, you shouldn't be up there).

109 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:20:26pm

Extremist pastor signs on to Perry prayer event

He hates Catholics and Mormons, and he thinks paganism caused the Japanese tsunami
110 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:21:09pm

re: #108 darthstar

no fall zones - that's the best part. There are some cornices on the back bowls at Alpine that will make your butt pucker...but you can't enter them gingerly, or you'll hurt yourself...you have to commit and trust that you can slow yourself down later (if you don't trust you can slow yourself, you shouldn't be up there).

slow...stop?...what's that?
I'll stop at the lift....
heh...sound like a board head now

111 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:22:29pm
112 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:23:21pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Extremist pastor signs on to Perry prayer event

He's not so extreme...show him a butt-crack stuffed with meth, and he'll break down just like the rest of 'em...

113 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:23:56pm

re: #110 albusteve

slow...stop?...what's that?
I'll stop at the lift...
heh...sound like a board head now

Full speed ahead!
Those people at the bottom will slow me down!
:)

114 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:24:51pm

re: #112 darthstar

He's not so extreme...show him a butt-crack stuffed with meth, and he'll break down just like the rest of 'em...

ahahahahahaha jesus that was awesome

115 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:25:09pm

re: #111 Varek Raith

Inhofe insists he's the victim after nearly killing airport workers

What a whiny flake he is.

He got 7 hours of remedial flight training...with John McCain.

116 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:26:53pm

re: #113 Varek Raith

Full speed ahead!
Those people at the bottom will slow me down!
:)

snow boarders are notorious for fucking up at the bottom and disregarding others...they seem to love the congestion...punks

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:27:57pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

man, if paganism causes tidal waves, I say vote with your renouncement of axial religions, beats showing up on Nov. 8

I'm off to worship a chicken-headed Loki statue, BRB

118 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:29:47pm

re: #116 albusteve

snow boarders are notorious for fucking up at the bottom and disregarding others...they seem to love the congestion...punks

There are still plenty of the punks around, but as snowboarding has become accepted as a mainstream form of snowsport, the punks who endanger others aren't nearly as evident...besides, other snowboarders are likely to say, "SLOW THE FUCK DOWN, ASSHOLE!" - and they do...that's where I come in and have a talk with the asshole.

119 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:30:23pm

re: #116 albusteve

snow boarders are notorious for fucking up at the bottom and disregarding others...they seem to love the congestion...punks

yeah but you don't trust a skiier to have the good weed :D

120 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:30:49pm

re: #118 darthstar

There are still plenty of the punks around, but as snowboarding has become accepted as a mainstream form of snowsport, the punks who endanger others aren't nearly as evident...besides, other snowboarders are likely to say, "SLOW THE FUCK DOWN, ASSHOLE!" - and they do...that's where I come in and have a talk with the asshole.

*Throws snowball at darth*

121 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:31:59pm

Does Michelle Obama Know About This?

“They warned us at first that we had to move the vegetables from the front, that no vegetables were allowed in the front yard. We didn’t move them because we didn’t think we were doing anything wrong, even according to city code we didn’t think we were doing anything wrong. So they ticketed us and charged me with a misdemeanor,” Bass said . . .


Fascists!

122 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:32:31pm
123 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:32:49pm

re: #118 darthstar

There are still plenty of the punks around, but as snowboarding has become accepted as a mainstream form of snowsport, the punks who endanger others aren't nearly as evident...besides, other snowboarders are likely to say, "SLOW THE FUCK DOWN, ASSHOLE!" - and they do...that's where I come in and have a talk with the asshole.

and money talks...they get their own parks now...granted it's not as bad as it was back then...my 26 year old son is a boarder and it was not too long ago when he decided to ski...he loved it and now devotes equal time to both...there is hope

124 dragonfire1981  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:32:53pm

re: #102 Obdicut

I'll take "Things you can't actually do" for a billion, Trebek.

I SO heard that in a Sean Connery accent.

125 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:33:16pm

re: #102 Obdicut

I'll take "Things you can't actually do" for a billion, Trebek.

HAHAHAHAHA dying

126 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:33:45pm

re: #121 Killgore Trout

Does Michelle Obama Know About This?


Fascists!

What kind of busybody calls that in!?
Sheesh.

127 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:34:33pm

re: #119 WindUpBird

yeah but you don't trust a skiier to have the good weed :D

I've never suffered in that regard...I'm the peanut butter and weed is my jelly

128 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:34:57pm

re: #111 Varek Raith

Inhofe insists he's the victim after nearly killing airport workers

What a whiny flake he is.

I prefer the term "worthless subhuman shit" :D

129 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:35:16pm

re: #127 albusteve

I've never suffered in that regard...I'm the peanut butter and weed is my jelly

Full disclosure, I was a skiier, not a snowboarder, couldn't balance on a snowboard *_*

130 dragonfire1981  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:35:43pm

re: #101 Killgore Trout

I don't have any words for that except: Really?

131 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:36:48pm

re: #129 WindUpBird

Full disclosure, I was a skiier, not a snowboarder, couldn't balance on a snowboard *_*

after hours in the saloon, it's all good...I'm pretty forgiving if you buy the drinks!

132 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:38:40pm

re: #131 albusteve

after hours in the saloon, it's all good...I'm pretty forgiving if you buy the drinks!

*hic* I haven't skiied for so long, I think at this point I'm ONLY qualified to buy drinks

133 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:39:24pm

re: #122 goddamnedfrank

C. Peter Wagner = Ted Knight + Colonel Sanders (if they made it.)

lol

134 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:40:16pm

weed, Capt Morgan and the Stones all seem to converge into the perfect storm on the slopes

135 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:40:36pm

Humberto Leal has been executed in Texas.

136 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:40:37pm

re: #126 Varek Raith

What kind of busybody calls that in!?
Sheesh.

People are weird.

137 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:41:15pm

re: #135 wrenchwench

Humberto Leal has been executed in Texas.

Link

138 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:41:25pm

re: #5 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Really, if it's true, then it puts the GOP is one hell of a pickle. Are they willing to forsake an historical opportunity to get virtually everything they wanted...just because doing some means saying yes to tax increases?

If I'm running the GOP side of the negotiations, then it's a deal. It's not so much that we want to cut SS benefits, as it is that we have to. Spending on transfer payments is unsustainable. The very meaning of unsustainable means that it WILL NOT continue at this level indefinitely. Not when it comes to purchasing power.

So, we can modify the terms, to borrow an expression from mortgage banking, to where the borrower, here the USA, can make reduced payments. Or we can insist on full payment, but not get it.

I've got enough years credit to claim SS, but I don't have a moral right to a handy profit on what I put in, not when it must come from the next generation and that generation is hurting.

I don't have an ironclad legal claim to it either. The government can, and under the circumstances, should, make such cuts as it has to in spending to break even. Some tax increases would also be in order; the upper middle class is where the big money is, and it, together with the rich, can pay a few percent more without sinking the economy or their own finances.

139 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:42:39pm

re: #132 WindUpBird

*hic* I haven't skiied for so long, I think at this point I'm ONLY qualified to buy drinks

not a problem...make a couple of runs, then tend to transport, rooms, money, food etc...priceless

140 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:43:35pm

re: #135 wrenchwench

Humberto Leal has been executed in Texas.

justice has been done

141 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:44:40pm

re: #121 Killgore Trout

Does Michelle Obama Know About This?


Fascists!

My HOA refused to allow me to plant a dwarf pie cherry tree and a few blueberry bushes in front. They have to be in back.

I was so angry I left the ugly furball thing in for two more years. BTW, blueberry bushes don't leave any more mess than a rhodie would; I want my shrubbery to earn its keep.

142 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:45:24pm

Limbaugh's take on 'Fast and Furious":

Fast & Furious: The Obama Regime Gave 2,500 Guns to Mexican Drug Lords
We're talking about a potential impeachable offense -- and I think the aim was to push gun control.

From his daily email.

That settles it: it must be nontroversy.

143 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:46:47pm

re: #142 wrenchwench


Wow, is it 1997 again? :D

144 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:46:58pm

re: #142 wrenchwench

Limbaugh's take on 'Fast and Furious":

From his daily email.

That settles it: it must be nontroversy.

that has already been decided here

145 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:47:39pm

re: #138 lostlakehiker

SS is going through a bolus as the baby boomers retire. After they do, it'll be back to being more than fully funded through SS taxes. And that's if we don't do the logical thing and raise the cap on percentage of income that gets taxed.

146 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:48:08pm

re: #142 wrenchwench

Limbaugh's take on 'Fast and Furious":

From his daily email.

That settles it: it must be nontroversy.

That or a nefarious plot by Obama to take your guns away and shit.

147 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:48:30pm

re: #141 EmmmieG

My HOA refused to allow me to plant a dwarf pie cherry tree and a few blueberry bushes in front. They have to be in back.

I was so angry I left the ugly furball thing in for two more years. BTW, blueberry bushes don't leave any more mess than a rhodie would; I want my shrubbery to earn its keep.

That's why I'd never live in a development with an HOA. If the city told me I couldn't grow my own food on my own property I'd tell them to fuck off.

148 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:50:05pm

re: #147 Killgore Trout

That's why I'd never live in a development with an HOA. If the city told me I couldn't grow my own food on my own property I'd tell them to fuck off.

As I've mentioned before, my blueberry bushes are workhorses. I put them in a really sunny spot with great Southern exposure and I get tons off of them.

I just can't believe that a well-tended garden isn't allowed.

149 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:50:18pm

re: #142 wrenchwench

Limbaugh's take on 'Fast and Furious":

From his daily email.

That settles it: it must be nontroversy.

Pretty much. Some mid level managers might get fired, some new guidelines and rules, etc but it's not going to be a big deal outside of Fox News circles.

150 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:51:11pm

re: #142 wrenchwench

Limbaugh's take on 'Fast and Furious":

From his daily email.

That settles it: it must be nontroversy.

I called this in the Pages, the real reason the Republicans are pissed is because the ATF tried to do anything to investigate the straw sale black market.

151 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:51:21pm

re: #148 EmmmieG

As I've mentioned before, my blueberry bushes are workhorses. I put them in a really sunny spot with great Southern exposure and I get tons off of them.

I just can't believe that a well-tended garden isn't allowed.

heh...be careful how you park you car or when you fly a flag....HOA are commies

152 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:51:49pm

re: #148 EmmmieG

As I've mentioned before, my blueberry bushes are workhorses. I put them in a really sunny spot with great Southern exposure and I get tons off of them.

I just can't believe that a well-tended garden isn't allowed.

I'm getting a pretty modest blueberry crop this season but I've only had them about a year so far. I can't wait until they really start producing.

153 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:52:14pm

Fox Business fucktard has a sad because Alan Grayson won't get into a shouting match with him and makes him look like an idiot on his own show.

154 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:54:06pm

re: #150 goddamnedfrank

I called this in the Pages, the real reason the Republicans are pissed is because the ATF tried to do anything to investigate the straw sale black market.

so your problem is with republicans?...disregarding the facts?
ahahaha!....expected

155 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:54:54pm

re: #151 albusteve

heh...be careful how you park you car or when you fly a flag...HOA are commies

HOAs...Fuck 'em. Don't pay the fees. You own your house and the property it's on. Plant what you want, paint your garbage can yellow, buy a 74 Pinto and put it up on blocks in the front yard. Pretty soon, everyone in the neighborhood will be doing it.

That's how I roll...but I don't have an HOA so I don't have to do any of the above, either...

156 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:55:12pm

re: #153 darthstar

Fox Business fucktard has a sad because Alan Grayson won't get into a shouting match with him and makes him look like an idiot on his own show.

[Video]

I always figured it'd be fun to just start fiddling with your smart phone on a Fox news show if you're being interviewed and the host is ramping up his outrage

"Hold on, one moment, I gotta check my Bookworm scores.."

157 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:55:22pm

re: #145 Obdicut

SS is going through a bolus as the baby boomers retire. After they do, it'll be back to being more than fully funded through SS taxes. And that's if we don't do the logical thing and raise the cap on percentage of income that gets taxed.

To do that, while leaving in place the cap on the payout, is to simply convert social security into a welfare program and a second federal income tax. Not kosher.

Where is the justice in requiring very high end earners to pay more monthly in social security "contributions" than they could collect in a lifetime of benefits?

158 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:56:19pm

re: #150 goddamnedfrank

I called this in the Pages, the real reason the Republicans are pissed is because the ATF tried to do anything to investigate the straw sale black market.

On what do you base that accusation?

159 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:57:24pm

re: #155 darthstar

HOAs...Fuck 'em. Don't pay the fees. You own your house and the property it's on. Plant what you want, paint your garbage can yellow, buy a 74 Pinto and put it up on blocks in the front yard. Pretty soon, everyone in the neighborhood will be doing it.

That's how I roll...but I don't have an HOA so I don't have to do any of the above, either...

there's a Satanic dentist in olympia who owns black-painted houses, who is fighting the good (bad) fight: [Link: ridiculoushuman.blogspot.com...]

160 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:57:57pm

re: #156 WindUpBird

I always figured it'd be fun to just start fiddling with your smart phone on a Fox news show if you're being interviewed and the host is ramping up his outrage

"Hold on, one moment, I gotta check my Bookworm scores.."

Or just give random responses like, "Does your wife know you wore that tie?" "Your mascara is smudged." "That color looks bad on you." (They're all about their egos, after all.)

161 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:58:05pm

re: #157 lostlakehiker

To do that, while leaving in place the cap on the payout, is to simply convert social security into a welfare program and a second federal income tax. Not kosher.

Where is the justice in requiring very high end earners to pay more monthly in social security "contributions" than they could collect in a lifetime of benefits?

Won't someone think of the ultra-rich? hahahahaha

162 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:58:32pm

re: #160 darthstar

"You got a thing right ther-...never mind."

163 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:59:01pm

re: #155 darthstar

HOAs...Fuck 'em. Don't pay the fees. You own your house and the property it's on. Plant what you want, paint your garbage can yellow, buy a 74 Pinto and put it up on blocks in the front yard. Pretty soon, everyone in the neighborhood will be doing it.

That's how I roll...but I don't have an HOA so I don't have to do any of the above, either...

the closest thing to a group exercise I do is LGF, and I don't fit in too well here...imagine me trying to live with rules concerning my backboard placement, or lights on at night, or a Stones show I think the hood should hear...not gonna happen

164 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:00:12pm

re: #153 darthstar

Wow, that Fox guy tells a lot of baldfaced lies, like claiming that the people who don't pay income tax don't pay into social security or medicare.

165 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:00:47pm

re: #150 goddamnedfrank

I called this in the Pages, the real reason the Republicans are pissed is because the ATF tried to do anything to investigate the straw sale black market.

No. Because the ATF botched it and simply contributed to the problem. And then lied to Mexican investigators about whether the serial numbers could be traced. And got people killed.

166 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:00:50pm

re: #163 albusteve

the closest thing to a group exercise I do is LGF, and I don't fit in too well here...imagine me trying to live with rules concerning my backboard placement, or lights on at night, or a Stones show I think the hood should hear...not gonna happen

I could see you buying a Harley - never riding it...just revving it up in the driveway every day for 10 or 15 minutes.

167 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:00:59pm

Update on Pam Geller's Love Boat expedition around the world.....
Levant & Geller on Aqsa Parvez, Freedom From Jihad Flotilla


Skip to 6:40
Yes, she's really trying to do it. I'm not quite sure what she imagines her boat is going to do.
168 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:01:02pm

re: #157 lostlakehiker

To do that, while leaving in place the cap on the payout, is to simply convert social security into a welfare program and a second federal income tax. Not kosher.

Huh? How does it turn into a welfare program, exactly?

169 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:01:09pm

re: #158 Rightwingconspirator

On what do you base that accusation?

The fact that it's patently obvious, the Republicans doing everything in their power to derail an ongoing investigation, that likely has undercover agents still in the field, jeopardizing informants and any potential pending indictments. The law and order party my ass. Limbaugh let the cat out of the bag, Republicans see any and all efforts to regulate the sale of firearms as anathema, everything else is pure political expedience.

170 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:01:24pm

re: #164 Obdicut

Wow, that Fox guy tells a lot of baldfaced lies, like claiming that the people who don't pay income tax don't pay into social security or medicare.

Well, he is a Fox business host, so chances are he knows jack shit about business or taxes.

171 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:01:55pm

re: #167 Killgore Trout


Skip to 6:40
Yes, she's really trying to do it. I'm not quite sure what she imagines her boat is going to do.

Sinking would be a good idea.

172 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:02:11pm

Time to head home...bbl.

173 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:02:57pm

re: #158 Rightwingconspirator

On what do you base that accusation?

probably the fact that nothing can go wrong with the BO admin, and everything is a GOP conspiracy

174 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:03:37pm

re: #168 Obdicut

Huh? How does it turn into a welfare program, exactly?

Shut up ... that's how!

175 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:04:26pm

re: #166 darthstar

I could see you buying a Harley - never riding it...just revving it up in the driveway every day for 10 or 15 minutes.

don't go there...I need to stay away from bikes...
they wreck me

176 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:04:47pm

re: #174 goddamnedfrank

Shut up ... that's how!

Well, we have a cap on payouts, and a cap on payins right now. I don't get why moving the cap on pains up an indeterminate amount crosses some magical 'welfare!' line.

177 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:05:24pm

re: #169 goddamnedfrank

The fact that it's patently obvious, the Republicans doing everything in their power to derail an ongoing investigation, that likely has undercover agents still in the field, jeopardizing informants and any potential pending indictments. The law and order party my ass. Limbaugh let the cat out of the bag, Republicans see any and all efforts to regulate the sale of firearms as anathema, everything else is pure political expedience.

yawn...are you ever in for a surprise!

178 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:06:22pm

re: #168 Obdicut

Huh? How does it turn into a welfare program, exactly?

What else would you call a system that took from the rich and gave to the poor? As things now stand, SS is an insurance program. Contributions are linked, at least tenuously, to benefits. But if you do away with the cap on what income is taxed, while maintaining the current cap on benefits, then the "contributions" of very-high-end earners are not really contributions. They won't see any change in benefits as a result of paying millions a year in SS taxes.

If the money goes to increasing SS benefits, then it's a welfare program. If it goes to general government revenues, it's simply another income tax.

In neither case is this hypothetical change an "old age and survivors insurance" measure.

179 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:06:56pm

re: #171 darthstar

Sinking would be a good idea.

I can't imagine somebody's going to pay for that. Charter a boat to sail from New York to Africa? That's a huge amount of money and will accomplish absolutely nothing. Who the hell would be so stupid to throw away money on that?

180 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:08:16pm

another lovely display of conservative race tolerance

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

181 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:08:40pm

re: #177 albusteve

yawn...are you ever in for a surprise!

Naw, it's a nontroversy. The fact that you've swallowed it hook, line, sinker and tackle box doesn't change anything.

182 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:09:01pm

re: #180 SpaceJesus

in the comments, that is

183 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:09:21pm

re: #150 goddamnedfrank

You saw where the acting ATF is an Obama appointee right? Not a Bush appointee? This administration owns this. The acting head of the ATF owns this mess.

184 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:10:18pm

re: #178 lostlakehiker

What else would you call a system that took from the rich and gave to the poor?

Well, any number of things. And it wouldn't just be giving to the poor, it'd be giving to everyone, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about there.

If you're pointing out the rich wouldn't really need their social security benefits, true, but they still get them. We don't means test. It wouldn't really benefit us much to do so.

And given that everyone pays those social security taxes, it wouldn't just be taking from the rich, either, but taking from everyone.

If you mean that raising the cap (the cap which is placed at a semi-arbitrary point now) would take more money from those above the cap, yes, that's what a cap means. I don't know if you think it's placement right now is in some absolute ideal position, above which is "Welfare!"

185 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:10:46pm

re: #176 Obdicut

I gotta wonder what the numbers would look like if there was no income cap?

186 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:12:34pm

re: #184 Obdicut

Would you support paying in far more than you could ever get back? 2x? 3x? That's what I would like to see-numbers on no cap and numbers at different escalating caps.

187 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:13:20pm

re: #185 Rightwingconspirator

I gotta wonder what the numbers would look like if there was no income cap?

Just none? I don't know. But since the tax is just on work income, not on dividends or other capital gains, it doesn't actually capture a lot of the income of the rich, so it's not as much as you'd at first think.

188 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:13:35pm

re: #179 Killgore Trout

I can't imagine somebody's going to pay for that. Charter a boat to sail from New York to Africa? That's a huge amount of money and will accomplish absolutely nothing. Who the hell would be so stupid to throw away money on that?


She doesn't have a boat yet, but she has a name for it:

The Audacity of the Infidel will launch on September 11 from the New York harbor closest to the World Trade Center site. On board will be freedom fighters from all over the world, united in defense of human rights and human dignity against Islamic supremacist oppression.
189 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:14:15pm

re: #181 goddamnedfrank

Naw, it's a nontroversy. The fact that you've swallowed it hook, line, sinker and tackle box doesn't change anything.

how is it a nontroversy?...because you want it to be won't make it so...you are setting yourself up to blame some political party when the shit hits the fan, and it will...go ahead and blow it off, but the feds are outa control on this one and the fact that you need to protect Holder and BO won't change a thing...you and their apologists will go down with them...now a real controversy is what Salon said Palin said yesterday...that's big news eh?...LOL!

190 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:15:27pm

re: #186 Rightwingconspirator

Would you support paying in far more than you could ever get back? 2x? 3x? That's what I would like to see-numbers on no cap and numbers at different escalating caps.

Um, if we needed to to stop the seniors from starving, if their incomes had all been wiped out in the mortgage crash and suchlike, if other programs had been cut, then yes, I, a healthy young adult, will happily pay what it takes to take care of our nations elders.

191 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:16:06pm

re: #169 goddamnedfrank

The fact that it's patently obvious, the Republicans doing everything in their power to derail an ongoing investigation, that likely has undercover agents still in the field, jeopardizing informants and any potential pending indictments. The law and order party my ass. Limbaugh let the cat out of the bag, Republicans see any and all efforts to regulate the sale of firearms as anathema, everything else is pure political expedience.

Okay you are speculating from a critics point of view. Got it.

192 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:16:56pm

re: #188 wrenchwench

The Audacity of the Infidel will launch on September 11 from the New York harbor closest to the World Trade Center site. On board will be freedom fighters from all over the world, united in defense of human rights and human dignity against Islamic supremacist oppression.

Lol! Somali pirates are really going to have some fun with that one.

193 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:21:51pm

re: #190 Obdicut

Um, if we needed to to stop the seniors from starving, if their incomes had all been wiped out in the mortgage crash and suchlike, if other programs had been cut, then yes, I, a healthy young adult, will happily pay what it takes to take care of our nations elders.

Good heavens of course! But with the full faith and credit of the Federal gov behind the system that's not really the likely issue. It's about whether to deficit spend or how not to deficit spend.

194 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:24:28pm

re: #192 Killgore Trout

Lol! Somali pirates are really going to have some fun with that one.

Ya know, if she's out to do battle with Islamic Oppression on a boat, that's where she should go; off the Horn of Africa, take on the pirates.

195 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:25:02pm

re: #193 Rightwingconspirator

Good heavens of course! But with the full faith and credit of the Federal gov behind the system that's not really the likely issue. It's about whether to deficit spend or how not to deficit spend.

Well, like I said, I favor raising the cap on social security contributions. Money paid out to seniors goes back into the economy quickly and efficiently. I guess we could deficit spend on it, but I'd always rather raise revenue if available.

196 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:31:32pm
197 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:38:24pm

re: #135 wrenchwench

Sanctions against Texas.

198 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:39:25pm

re: #196 Amory Blaine

Grand Rapids Shooting: 7 Dead

whoa...my daughters home town
bummer

199 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:40:55pm

re: #196 Amory Blaine
That is awful. :(

200 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:41:18pm

re: #191 Rightwingconspirator

Okay you are speculating from a critics point of view. Got it.

framing everything that comes out of DC in partisan, anti-Republican rhetoric just exposes the drones

201 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:42:18pm

re: #183 Rightwingconspirator

You saw where the acting ATF is an Obama appointee right? Not a Bush appointee? This administration owns this. The acting head of the ATF owns this mess.

And why is he an acting ATF director?
Because like most of Obama appointees, there has been a hold put on the nominee by republicans.

202 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:42:29pm

re: #194 wrenchwench

Ya know, if she's out to do battle with Islamic Oppression on a boat, that's where she should go; off the Horn of Africa, take on the pirates.

it's just more blow, a chance for exposure via the MSM

203 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:43:07pm

re: #188 wrenchwench

She doesn't have a boat yet, but she has a name for it:

It's funny in a very pathetic, dysfunctional way how Geller and her Bigot Brigade are using the title of Obama's book as the basis for the name of their idiotic anti-jihad cruise vacation. They hate him so much that they emulate him.

204 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:45:11pm

re: #176 Obdicut

Well, we have a cap on payouts, and a cap on payins right now. I don't get why moving the cap on pains up an indeterminate amount crosses some magical 'welfare!' line.

Moving BOTH caps would not cross that line. But moving the one cap to infinity, while keeping the other where it is, would.

Moving one cap a little ways is a little step on the road to moving it to infinity. Once the caps are separated, there is no legal ground for limiting the separation.

Moving both caps up would just dig a deeper hole for the system.

205 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:45:38pm

re: #201 blueraven

And why is he an acting ATF director?
Because like most of Obama appointees, there has been a hold put on the nominee by republicans.

irrelevant

206 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:47:08pm

re: #188 wrenchwench

It's almost too funny to be believed, it's like the Onion made it up:

"The Audacity of the Infidel will launch on September 11 from the New York harbor closest to the World Trade Center site"

Painted red white and blue, with a chrome American Eagle clutching a bust of Ronald Reagan as a prow, and a galley devoted to baking nothing but apple pies

207 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:47:30pm

I think the salt air and the sun might finish off Geller's face. She already looks like Joan Rivers at only half her age.

208 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:47:43pm

re: #204 lostlakehiker

Moving BOTH caps would not cross that line. But moving the one cap to infinity, while keeping the other where it is, would.

Moving one cap a little ways is a little step on the road to moving it to infinity. Once the caps are separated, there is no legal ground for limiting the separation.

Moving both caps up would just dig a deeper hole for the system.


i don't think 'hole' means what you thing it means lol

209 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:48:01pm

re: #205 albusteve

irrelevant

Not really. There was definitely a need for a real director, not just a bench warmer.

210 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:49:45pm

re: #204 lostlakehiker

really, I oppose all legislation because every bit of legislation passed is that much closer to an infinity of legislation, whereupon the amount of legislation passed, the paper required merely to describe this event-horizon of lawmaking will actually outweigh the very planet itself

211 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:50:59pm

re: #204 lostlakehiker

Moving BOTH caps would not cross that line. But moving the one cap to infinity, while keeping the other where it is, would.

Why are you talking about moving them to infinity?


Moving one cap a little ways is a little step on the road to moving it to infinity. Once the caps are separated, there is no legal ground for limiting the separation.

Um, the caps are separated. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

You're literally making a slippery slope argument, as well. An infinite slippery slope. The same non-argument you just used could argue against lowering taxes, given that's a little step on the road to lowering them infinitely.

Given that the rich derive a lot of income from capital gains, which are not subject to social security taxes, does that alter your calculations at all? Would you like to see that income taxed for social security?

Do you see social security as some bastardized savings account or something?

212 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:51:03pm

re: #210 WindUpBird

really, I oppose all legislation because every bit of legislation passed is that much closer to an infinity of legislation, whereupon the amount of legislation passed, the paper required merely to describe this event-horizon of lawmaking will actually outweigh the very planet itself

The gravity produced by all that paper will help to bring about the wingularity.

213 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:52:42pm

re: #208 WindUpBird

i don't think 'hole' means what you thing it means lol


If you need help with the idea of a fiscal hole, moving both caps up the same amount would cause the already negative balance of payments for OASI to go yet more negative.

214 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:53:22pm

re: #212 Fozzie Bear

The gravity produced by all that paper will help to bring about the wingularity.

Step into the intersteller vortex of a Ronald Reagan head with a million eyeballs and a thousand tongues, TEAR DOWN THIS PSYCHIC WALL

215 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:55:06pm

re: #206 WindUpBird

It's almost too funny to be believed, it's like the Onion made it up:

"The Audacity of the Infidel will launch on September 11 from the New York harbor closest to the World Trade Center site"

Painted red white and blue, with a chrome American Eagle clutching a bust of Ronald Reagan as a prow, and a galley devoted to baking nothing but apple pies

For real?
...
:/

216 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:55:34pm

re: #213 lostlakehiker

If you need help with the idea of a fiscal hole, moving both caps up the same amount would cause the already negative balance of payments for OASI to go yet more negative.

I need help with all the hundreds of half-truths and non-truths you've peddled here in the name of libertarian mumbo-jumbo, so forgive me if I don't exactly fish out my wallet to buy what you're selling

217 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 5:57:18pm

re: #216 WindUpBird

I need help with all the hundreds of half-truths and non-truths you've peddled here in the name of libertarian mumbo-jumbo, so forgive me if I don't exactly fish out my wallet to buy what you're selling

I got just what you need.
Image: work.7206774.1.flat,550x550,075,f.bridge-for-sale.jpg

218 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:00:11pm

re: #204 lostlakehiker

Moving BOTH caps would not cross that line. But moving the one cap to infinity, while keeping the other where it is, would.

LOL, won't somebody think of those with infinite income.

219 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:02:45pm

re: #211 Obdicut

Why are you talking about moving them to infinity?

Um, the caps are separated. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

You're literally making a slippery slope argument, as well. An infinite slippery slope. The same non-argument you just used could argue against lowering taxes, given that's a little step on the road to lowering them infinitely.

Given that the rich derive a lot of income from capital gains, which are not subject to social security taxes, does that alter your calculations at all? Would you like to see that income taxed for social security?

Do you see social security as some bastardized savings account or something?

Social security is an old age and survivors insurance program. Earned income is taxed up to some cap, and payouts are scaled, though not linearly, to contributions.

To raise the cap on income that's taxable, in such a way that the person paying more will see not one penny of his extra "contributions" returned, is an income tax.

Capital gains is subject to income tax. Scoring capital gains does not entitle one to social security benefits. So why should it incur social security contributions requirements? The whole matter of capital gains orbits a different star from the social security system. As it should. No one should get a public paycheck because they gambled in the market and won. No one should pay social security contributions who is not in line to receive some sort of reciprocal benefit. [What about illegal aliens? Those who are deported should maybe get a refund, assuming they don't come back and have no prospect of ever getting benefits. The details of this would require study.]

Would I like to see capital gains taxed more heavily? That's a somewhat involved question. I'd like to see capital gains figured relative to inflation, so that if you invested $1000 in 1970, say, and it "grew" to $5000 today, a big gain on paper but possibly a loss of purchasing power, you'd pay no taxes.

But for capital gains that are actually gains even after inflation is taken into account, I'd like the rate increased. The special treatment they get now is a rough and unsatisfactory offset to the unreasonable consequences of figuring capital gains in dollars that are not indexed against inflation.

220 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:04:56pm

re: #216 WindUpBird

I need help with all the hundreds of half-truths and non-truths you've peddled here in the name of libertarian mumbo-jumbo, so forgive me if I don't exactly fish out my wallet to buy what you're selling

Such as?

You haven't brought any facts to the discussion, nor given any arguments. Just carping.

221 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:07:01pm

re: #167 Killgore Trout

Update on Pam Geller's Love Boat expedition around the world...
Levant & Geller on Aqsa Parvez, Freedom From Jihad Flotilla

[Video]
Skip to 6:40
Yes, she's really trying to do it. I'm not quite sure what she imagines her boat is going to do.

I'll try not to laugh when the shriektilla sails near Somali waters and gets captured by pirates.

222 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:08:59pm

re: #219 lostlakehiker

Social security is an old age and survivors insurance program. Earned income is taxed up to some cap, and payouts are scaled, though not linearly, to contributions.

To raise the cap on income that's taxable, in such a way that the person paying more will see not one penny of his extra "contributions" returned, is an income tax.

We already have a ton of people who pay into social security and never see a penny of those 'contributions'-- the ones who die before getting social security.

No one should pay social security contributions who is not in line to receive some sort of reciprocal benefit.

But, again, lots of people-- espeically black males-- will never collect social security, because their average age of death is 70. Should we pro-rate people based on their likelihood of ever collecting SS?


Would I like to see capital gains taxed more heavily? That's a somewhat involved question. I'd like to see capital gains figured relative to inflation, so that if you invested $1000 in 1970, say, and it "grew" to $5000 today, a big gain on paper but possibly a loss of purchasing power, you'd pay no taxes.

That's fine.

But for capital gains that are actually gains even after inflation is taken into account, I'd like the rate increased. The special treatment they get now is a rough and unsatisfactory offset to the unreasonable consequences of figuring capital gains in dollars that are not indexed against inflation.

No, that's not why they get the special benefit now-- it's part of it, but it's also that those who make large amounts of capital gains are also politically powerful and use that privilege.

But I agree that a capital gains tax that accounts for inflation would be a good idea. I'd like the rate raised to normal income tax levels.

Of course, I want those rates raised too, at the higher echelons, including my own.

223 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:09:57pm

re: #3 Obdicut

And the media half-asses yet another story.

Malice or incompetence, hard to tell.

Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

224 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:12:22pm

re: #184 Obdicut

Well, any number of things. And it wouldn't just be giving to the poor, it'd be giving to everyone, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about there.

If you're pointing out the rich wouldn't really need their social security benefits, true, but they still get them. We don't means test. It wouldn't really benefit us much to do so.

And given that everyone pays those social security taxes, it wouldn't just be taking from the rich, either, but taking from everyone.

If you mean that raising the cap (the cap which is placed at a semi-arbitrary point now) would take more money from those above the cap, yes, that's what a cap means. I don't know if you think it's placement right now is in some absolute ideal position, above which is "Welfare!"

You're ducking the question. Do you want the cap raised, but the law linking contributions to benefits kept as it is, so that those paying more because the cap was raised, would then receive increased benefits down the road?

Or do you want the cap raised on what income is taxed, while figuring benefits on the basis of the current cap?

If you choose the first answer, that does not help close the gap between SS contributions and SS payouts.

If you choose the second, you've converted SS from an insurance system to a flat out second income tax.

If we want higher rates on income, pure and simple, then enact them through the transparent and honest mechanism of the federal income tax. That way, you'd get your higher taxes on capital gains. Those, after all, should be taxed when it comes to general revenue. Our federal income tax system levies taxes on income from just about any source. I think life insurance proceeds are exempt, and there may be some other little things here and there.

225 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:15:01pm

re: #222 Obdicut


But, again, lots of people-- espeically black males-- will never collect social security, because their average age of death is 70. Should we pro-rate people based on their likelihood of ever collecting SS?

Do you suppose this will be an argument against raising the age of enrollment?

226 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:16:13pm

re: #222 Obdicut

We already have a ton of people who pay into social security and never see a penny of those 'contributions'-- the ones who die before getting social security.

But, again, lots of people-- espeically black males-- will never collect social security, because their average age of death is 70. Should we pro-rate people based on their likelihood of ever collecting SS?

That's fine.

No, that's not why they get the special benefit now-- it's part of it, but it's also that those who make large amounts of capital gains are also politically powerful and use that privilege.

But I agree that a capital gains tax that accounts for inflation would be a good idea. I'd like the rate raised to normal income tax levels.

Of course, I want those rates raised too, at the higher echelons, including my own.

You and me should be on that budget committee. We'd get somewhere.

As to those who die before getting benefits, there are, after all, disability payments. And with insurance, all insurance has its element of chance.

Should smokers get a break on their social security contributions? Should all men? Should those who are clinically obese? Alcoholics?

Should Asian women pay a surcharge? If your answer to all these other things is "no", then you can pat yourself on the back for having played a card you didn't mean in earnest, but just as a debating point. If it's yes, I'll congratulate you on consistency but I think it's unreasonable.

227 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:19:32pm

re: #201 blueraven

It would seem to me he is (was I hope) the guy waiting to be confirmed. But he had the Obama admin. vetting to get the job. It's got nothing to do with GWB. Or the GOP. What usually happens to an agency head when the agency screws the pooch? He resigns, lays low and resurfaces later with a new gig and an understanding of how things can go wrong.

228 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:22:12pm

re: #222 Obdicut

We already have a ton of people who pay into social security and never see a penny of those 'contributions'-- the ones who die before getting social security....snip.


That's a feature, not a bug. When the act was passed the life expectancy for white males, most of the workers covered, was 59.9 yrs.

229 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:23:12pm

re: #224 lostlakehiker

You're ducking the question. Do you want the cap raised, but the law linking contributions to benefits kept as it is, so that those paying more because the cap was raised, would then receive increased benefits down the road?

Um, I guess you don't really get social security. What do you think the relationship is between the equation used to derive payouts and the total amount paid in?

230 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:33:00pm

re: #226 lostlakehiker

You and me should be on that budget committee. We'd get somewhere.

As to those who die before getting benefits, there are, after all, disability payments. And with insurance, all insurance has its element of chance.

Yeah. That's my point. It's not a certainty of getting money from it, so it's weird that you get agitated about someone possibly not getting as much back as they put in.

I mean, never mind that contributions and payouts are not related to each other currently.


Should smokers get a break on their social security contributions? Should all men? Should those who are clinically obese? Alcoholics?

Well, I don't think so, since I wasn't actually proposing we use a dumb system.

Should Asian women pay a surcharge? If your answer to all these other things is "no", then you can pat yourself on the back for having played a card you didn't mean in earnest, but just as a debating point.

No, you just didn't get the point of me saying it. The point is that no one, rich or poor, paying into the social security system can be sure they will see a dime of it. They may die, with no dependents to inherit it. It happens a lot.

A lot of other people just die after a few years on social security. That's what actuarial tables are like. Some people will get more benefit out of the system. Some people will live collecting benefits six times as long as other people.

It is not possible to make it a system where you get the money back that you put in, and the current system doesn't even really attempt to do so.

231 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:43:16pm

i'm not sure how important all of these nice distinctions re tax policy are to americans who might get old

232 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:17:58pm

If we make social security into just another income tax, on top of the other one, it runs the risk of becoming unpopular. If we make it into an income tax just on incomes above $120K, or whatever, we cloud our minds as to what our true income tax rates are, and we open the door to demagoguery. Complaints that the rich pay too little, because look LOOK at it they only pay 38% or what have you, will sound halfway sensible, while, all the time, the real rate is 51% [and more, if you take state taxes into account] because social security takes 13% of everything above that cutoff that they earn, and none of it helps them down the road in the form of possible benefits.

And please, don't bother to tell me that the employer pays half. Money that the employer must pay on compensation is money that could have gone to the worker. So it's all the same who nominally pays it.

233 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:23:19pm

re: #232 lostlakehiker

If we make social security into just another income tax, on top of the other one, it runs the risk of becoming unpopular.

But I didn't say to do that. I said to raise the cap. Furthermore, it's a flat tax, so it wouldn't be like the income tax.

Why are you pretending I said to turn it into a progressive income tax?

234 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:45:49pm

re: #227 Rightwingconspirator

It would seem to me he is (was I hope) the guy waiting to be confirmed. But he had the Obama admin. vetting to get the job. It's got nothing to do with GWB. Or the GOP. What usually happens to an agency head when the agency screws the pooch? He resigns, lays low and resurfaces later with a new gig and an understanding of how things can go wrong.

No he was not the Obama nominee for the post. That would be Andrew Traver, current ATF director, Chicago

If Traver is offered and accepts the ATF director position on an acting basis, it is considered unlikely that he could win Senate confirmation. Since the position became Senate-confirmable, the gun lobby has effectively prevented any nominee from being confirmed.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
What do you think about that?


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