GOP Sen. Jim DeMint: I’ll Accept ‘Serious Disruptions’ of the Economy

Dominionist Republican is OK with damaging the US economy
Wingnuts • Views: 24,460

It’s been a third rail of US politics to accuse Republicans of deliberately sabotaging the economy to advance their political agenda, but Sen. Jim DeMint made this intention absolutely explicit today.

“We’re at the point where there would have to be some, you know, some serious disruptions in order not to raise [the debt ceiling],” he said. “I’m willing to do that.”

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343 comments
1 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:03:31pm

Hard-core Paulianism has infected the GOP. Ryan's plan is just Paul's rewritten in a different font.

And this is the logical outcome; they're ideologues, not actually interested in what the economy is or how it functions, but the social agenda of their tax and spending schemes.

Willing to sacrifice the well-being of fellow Americans because of revanchist Randian economics.

Sheesh.

2 Kragar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:03:44pm

Obviously Demint is a liberal plant.
/

3 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:04:05pm

Of course he'll accept disruptions. He gets to keep his taxpayer-funded housing, salary, healthcare, and financial security no matter what.

4 Ming  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:05:40pm

There appear to be quite a few Republicans, including some in Congress, who honestly think that Obama is an evil person, dedicated to the destruction of the United States and Western civilization. For people who really believe that, they see themselves as living in apocalyptic times, and something that I would consider "extreme", like defaulting on the national debt, seems perfectly "in sync with these extreme times" to them.

5 Kragar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:08:40pm

From May of this year;

DeMint: We Cannot Compromise or Cooperate With Democrats

I think it's out last chance. I really think it's now or never. Just looking at the financial situation of our country and just the polarization of views between the two parties. I mean, we have one that is really pushing toward centralization, collectivization, secularism - and we have some good people in that party; some of them are my best friends - but frankly they do not believe in individualism, they do not believe in the type of moral values that we do and we cannot compromise with them. You cannot cooperate with someone who does not have your values, does not share your vision, and does not have your goals.

6 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:10:29pm

What is it going to take? Seriously, what is it going to take for sane decent people to stop voting for these assholes? They don't care about you or the country. What more proof do you need? The GOP is not a political party. It's a fundamentalist cult masquerading as a political party.

7 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:11:44pm

re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Obviously Demint is a liberal potted plant.
/


FTFY

8 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:12:25pm

i never make serious fiscal decisions under the influence of creme de menthe

9 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:12:45pm

Just one more South Carolinian attempting to destroy the Yankee government.

10 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:14:28pm

re: #3 negativ

Of course he'll accept disruptions. He gets to keep his taxpayer-funded housing, salary, healthcare, and financial security no matter what.

with all the hard work, endless hours of sacrifice, aren't they worth it?....these are our astute leaders, bow before them

11 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:18:29pm

I can't take any of these assholes seriously....lucky me

12 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:18:56pm

re: #3 negativ

Of course he'll accept disruptions. He gets to keep his taxpayer-funded housing, salary, healthcare, and financial security no matter what.

This just in, rapist says he'll accept serious disruptions to the psyche of his victims

13 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:21:11pm

re: #9 Decatur Deb

Just one more South Carolinian attempting to destroy the Yankee government.

it's not about destroying the economy, it's about face time in the MSN and re-election....bandwagon, herd mentality, maneuvering to the side with the best option to win the next election....it's not malicious so much as pure ego....everyone hates a loser

14 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:22:48pm

Jim DeMint needs to find himself in the men's room with one of his constituents who would be "Seriously disrupted" by his allowing the country to fall into default...maybe that person could talk some sense into him.

15 Political Atheist  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:23:19pm

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

From May of this year;

DeMint: We Cannot Compromise or Cooperate With Democrats

What an ass. That really illustrates why I have so little patience for hard core partisans.

16 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:23:25pm

Both sides are bad LOL!

17 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:25:10pm

Remember back in '09, when Rush the Hutt proclaimed that he wanted Obama to fail? And various Republicans and Right-wing figures spoke out to defend him, declaring that he was right, because Obama's policies would hurt, nay destroy, America? And that calling for a president to fail was not a call for America to fail?

Seems the GOP's gotten tired of waiting and decided to help things along.

18 Kragar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:25:50pm

re: #16 goddamnedfrank

Both sides are bad LOL!

Youtube Video
19 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:26:51pm

Listen up coppers, I've got a gun, and I've got your economy in here... and... and.... if any of you try to come in.... I'll fuckin shoot it! I'll shoot it right in the head! Now you all stay back and get me exactly what I want, first I want you to stop funding planned parenthood second.... SECOND, ARE YOU LISTING F***ING PIGS?

20 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:27:31pm

re: #17 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Remember back in '09, when Rush the Hutt proclaimed that he wanted Obama to fail? And various Republicans and Right-wing figures spoke out to defend him, declaring that he was right, because Obama's policies would hurt, nay destroy, America? And that calling for a president to fail was not a call for America to fail?

Seems the GOP's gotten tired of waiting and decided to help things along.

Maybe Wanda Sykes will get her wish and their kidneys will fail first.

21 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:28:45pm

re: #19 jamesfirecat

Listen up coppers, I've got a gun, and I've got your economy in here... and... and... if any of you try to come in... I'll fuckin shoot it! I'll shoot it right in the head! Now you all stay back and get me exactly what I want, first I want you to stop funding planned parenthood second... SECOND, ARE YOU LISTING F***ING PIGS?

Nah, it's more like a mobster pushing a protection racket.

"Boy, that's a real nice economy you got goin' there. Would be a shame if something were to you happen to it..."

22 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:30:51pm

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

From May of this year;

DeMint: We Cannot Compromise or Cooperate With Democrats

Dear Jim: America cooperated with Josef-fuckin-Stalin for the greater good once upon a time. Or did we bomb the Russians at Pearl Harbor to keep them from attacking our close allies, the Japanese? I can't remember.

23 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:31:23pm

re: #14 darthstar

Jim DeMint needs to find himself in the men's room with one of his constituents who would be "Seriously disrupted" by his allowing the country to fall into default...maybe that person could talk some sense into him.

Assuming his stance was wide enough.

24 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:32:11pm

update on the GR Mich killings....
the perp took the cops down the expressway on a high speed chase, he dumped the car and headed for a house and now has hostages...he's armed, deadly and the locals are trying to kill him at this moment...bad news

25 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:32:20pm

re: #20 moderatelyradicalliberal

Maybe Wanda Sykes will get her wish and their kidneys will fail first.

I love Wanda Sykes...she says what others think. I find myself wanting to say things that I would never actually do, as I abhor violence, but it's hard not to wish fear upon people like DeMint...not ill, not pain, not death...just fear. Something that made them worry incessantly for hours on end...nothing serious, just a nagging fear that gave them constant, uncontrollable gas and indigestion...at least until their behavior improved and they learned that it's better to do good things for America.

26 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:32:44pm

re: #16 goddamnedfrank

Both sides are bad LOL!

progress!

27 Stanghazi  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:32:59pm

UghAssholes

28 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:35:14pm

re: #25 darthstar

I love Wanda Sykes...she says what others think. I find myself wanting to say things that I would never actually do, as I abhor violence, but it's hard not to wish fear upon people like DeMint...not ill, not pain, not death...just fear. Something that made them worry incessantly for hours on end...nothing serious, just a nagging fear that gave them constant, uncontrollable gas and indigestion...at least until their behavior improved and they learned that it's better to do good things for America.

DeMint doesn't give a rat's ass what you think...neither does your favorite congressman or POTUS

29 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:35:30pm

re: #24 albusteve

Live streaming of GR police radio here:
[Link: www.radioreference.com...]

30 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:36:15pm

re: #29 negativ

Live streaming of GR police radio here:
[Link: www.radioreference.com...]

just talked to my daughter for the update...thanks for the link

31 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:36:45pm

re: #28 albusteve

DeMint doesn't give a rat's ass what you think...neither does your favorite congressman or POTUS

I know...that's why I want them to be inspired from within their own bodies...something they can't hide from. Explosive diarrhea during a major floor debate or filibuster threat, for example.

32 Stanghazi  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:37:57pm

re: #11 albusteve

I can't take any of these assholes seriously...lucky me

Cheer up Steve. Good times ahead.

33 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:38:31pm

Maddow on Obama and his comments on Social Security - it's just "punching the hippy"...he's not going to cut SS, nor will he let the Republicans...he just wants his base fired up, and ready to go.

34 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:38:44pm

re: #32 Stanley Sea

Cheer up Steve. Good times ahead.

football is coming...give it time

35 Kragar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:39:21pm

re: #34 albusteve

football is coming...give it time

Soccer season already?

36 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:40:13pm

re: #35 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Soccer season already?

soccer?...the fake game?

37 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:40:44pm

re: #26 albusteve

progress!

Find me anything approaching an equivalent statement by any Democrat, find me one willing to do the same, to cause untold damage to the economy and inflict immeasurable suffering on people in a game of political chicken.

38 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:40:58pm

re: #34 albusteve

football is coming...give it time

16 weeks of choreographed man hugs.

39 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:41:51pm

re: #6 moderatelyradicalliberal

What is it going to take? Seriously, what is it going to take for sane decent people to stop voting for these assholes


Spinal implants in Democrats.

40 Kragar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:42:06pm

re: #38 darthstar

16 weeks of choreographed man hugs.

40lbs of protective gear to play rugby

41 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:42:14pm

The gop has completely fucked itself. Republican leadership has come out in favor of defaulting on the debt. There are far too many quotes and endorsements to mention, they're all on record. In fact everyone knows they can't actually follow through without destroying the global economy. Dems are going to offer them weak concessions and yank stuff off the table at the last minute because they know Republicans can't follow through. Even if I was a Republican I'd be pissed, this is just stupid politics. No matter what happens, Republicans lose.

42 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:42:21pm

re: #38 darthstar

16 weeks of choreographed man hugs.

... in tights. Periodically they all jump on to a big sweaty pile of manliness.

43 Stanghazi  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:43:10pm

re: #34 albusteve

football is coming...give it time

Unless....

44 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:43:21pm

re: #33 darthstar

Maddow on Obama and his comments on Social Security - it's just "punching the hippy"...he's not going to cut SS, nor will he let the Republicans...he just wants his base fired up, and ready to go.

That shit leaves a mark.

45 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:43:25pm

re: #40 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

40lbs of protective gear to play rugby

Rugby players have to keep moving. They don't get a thirty second rest after every 7 to 10 seconds of actual playing.

46 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:44:03pm

re: #37 goddamnedfrank

Find me anything approaching an equivalent statement by any Democrat, find me one willing to do the same, to cause untold damage to the economy and inflict immeasurable suffering on people in a game of political chicken.

LOL!...I could give a shit...
oohwee!...a statement!
talking to the wrong guy dude....take your media stuff and phony govt official 'statements' and park it

47 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:44:25pm

re: #38 darthstar

16 weeks of choreographed man hugs.

Also, many butt slaps and much thanking of the Jesus.

48 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:45:20pm

re: #43 Stanley Sea

Unless...

no, there will be a full season...trust me

49 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:45:33pm

re: #47 goddamnedfrank

Also, many butt slaps and much thanking of the Jesus.

Only when they do well...you never (with one exception) hear players cursing god because of a fumble, interception, or dropped pass.

50 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:45:55pm

re: #47 goddamnedfrank

Also, many butt slaps and much thanking of the Jesus.

He who died for our touchdowns...

51 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:46:04pm

re: #38 darthstar

16 weeks of choreographed man hugs.


Football = professional wrestling?

I never considered that, but you might be on to something there.

52 Stanghazi  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:46:07pm

re: #39 BongCrodny

Spinal implants in Democrats.

Oh goodie, my favorite graphic I can post

Democratic Spine

53 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:46:41pm

re: #50 JasonA

He who died for our touchdowns...

drop kick me Jesus through the goalposts of life

54 Kragar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:47:19pm

re: #47 goddamnedfrank

Also, many butt slaps and much thanking of the Jesus.

"Well, I really thought I had that pass, until Jesus knock it out of my hands."

55 andres  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:47:24pm

re: #14 darthstar

Jim DeMint needs to find himself in the men's room with one of his constituents who would be "Seriously disrupted" by his allowing the country to fall into default...maybe that person could talk some sense into him.

In wide or narrow stance?

//

56 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:48:10pm

re: #51 BongCrodny

Football = professional wrestling?

I never considered that, but you might be on to something there.

The games aren't rigged like wrestling, but the plays are all so well rehearsed you can have 22 people dancing around on the field and everyone has a partner...except for the chaperones in black and white.

57 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:48:18pm

re: #52 Stanley Sea

Oh goodie, my favorite graphic I can post

Democratic Spine


If that one were posted every day, I would upding it every day.

58 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:48:29pm

The wingnuts at Hot Air have been outraged all day demanding front page coverage of the latest bogus angle on the ATF/Stimulus scandal. Allahpundit delivers...
Too bad to check: Project Gunrunner was funded by … the stimulus

And to think, you guys say the stimulus didn’t produce anything. It produced guns for Mexican drug cartels, didn’t it? Says Ben Domenech, in a stroke of perfect black humor: “Shovel ready.”

Actually, as Ed reminds me via e-mail, this is old news. The boss emeritus was all over the stimulus angle to Gunrunner back in March. But since only recently has this story really begun to bubble, replete with growing big-media interest, stuff we already knew is becoming stuff we forgot and then remembered and became horrified at all over again.


Sample comment....

IMPEACH
59 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:48:48pm

Oh, well this makes sense.


Union Workers Replaced With Prison Labor Under Scott Walker’s Collective Bargaining Law

While Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker’s (R) law dismantling collective bargaining rights has harmed teachers, nurses, and other civil servants, it’s helping a different group in Wisconsinites — inmates. Prisoners are now taking up jobs that used to be held by unionized workers in some parts of the state.

60 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:49:09pm

re: #54 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"Well, I really thought I had that pass, until Jesus knock it out of my hands."

Jesus was the waterboy for the Saints...way to sissified to actually play the game

61 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:49:43pm

re: #59 JasonA

Oh, well this makes sense.

Union Workers Replaced With Prison Labor Under Scott Walker’s Collective Bargaining Law

How else can we compete with China?

62 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:49:53pm

re: #59 JasonA

Oh, well this makes sense.

Union Workers Replaced With Prison Labor Under Scott Walker’s Collective Bargaining Law

///Now if only he could make being a union member a crime and the circle would be complete!

63 Meitantei  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:50:30pm

re: #22 negativ

Didn't you know? That was done by that evil Communist FDR. Who then gave up half of Europe to the Reds because he was such a pinko. Real 'muricans like Douglas MacArthur would never do such a thing.

"Never compromise, not even in the face of Armaggadeon."
Can't help but wonder if they realize that statement was made by a lunatic.

64 Kragar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:50:49pm

re: #60 albusteve

Jesus was the waterboy for the Saints...way to sissified to actually play the game

I don't know, he seems willing to bring it.

Youtube Video
65 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:51:32pm

re: #59 JasonA

Oh, well this makes sense.

Union Workers Replaced With Prison Labor Under Scott Walker’s Collective Bargaining Law


"Hi, Billy -- come say hello to Knuckles, your new crossing guard!"

66 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:52:46pm

re: #64 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I don't know, he seems willing to bring it.

[Video]

I don't get it...fucked in the ass?

67 Kragar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:53:19pm

re: #59 JasonA

Oh, well this makes sense.

Union Workers Replaced With Prison Labor Under Scott Walker’s Collective Bargaining Law

Because who needs organized, regulated professionals when you can get felons?

68 Kragar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:53:47pm

re: #66 albusteve

I don't get it...fucked in the ass?

Thats the Jesus.

69 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:53:49pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

The wingnuts at Hot Air have been outraged all day demanding front page coverage of the latest bogus angle on the ATF/Stimulus scandal. Allahpundit delivers...
Too bad to check: Project Gunrunner was funded by … the stimulus


Sample comment...

Desperately hoping that this bogus scandal will finally bring down the black President.

The same way they hoped every other bogus scandal would bring down the black President.

70 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:54:31pm

re: #67 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Because who needs organized, regulated professionals when you can get felons?

hahaha!...just wait , when they exceed your union expectations...talk about fucked in the ass

71 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:55:41pm

re: #69 Charles

Desperately hoping that this bogus scandal will finally bring down the black President.

The same way they hoped every other bogus scandal would bring down the black President.

what's bogus about this story?

72 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:56:07pm

re: #59 JasonA

Oh, well this makes sense.

Union Workers Replaced With Prison Labor Under Scott Walker’s Collective Bargaining Law

Georgia farmers tried it to replace migrant workers, with results described as 'ludicrous'. (Note: since that's Fox News, the "criminals' thing is technically true, but they were parolees.)

[Link: latino.foxnews.com...]

73 Kragar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:56:28pm

re: #70 albusteve

hahaha!...just wait , when they exceed your union expectations...talk about fucked in the ass

Bryan Fischer will be sure to chime in if that's the case.

74 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:56:48pm

re: #70 albusteve

Maybe all jobs could be filled with prison labor.

75 aagcobb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:57:45pm

re: #74 Amory Blaine

Maybe all jobs could be filled with prison labor.

Let us return to the good ole days of 1859, before Lincoln screwed everything up./

76 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:57:46pm

re: #74 Amory Blaine

Maybe all jobs could be filled with prison labor.

maybe yours?...I don't know

77 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:58:03pm

re: #74 Amory Blaine

Maybe all jobs could be filled with prison labor.

Start with management.

78 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:58:10pm

re: #71 albusteve

what's bogus about this story?

The idea that the fact that a stupid operation run by the ATF was possibly funded by the stimulus has any reflection on Obama.

79 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:58:12pm

re: #74 Amory Blaine

Maybe all jobs could be filled with prison labor.

Dr. Adebisi will see you now.

80 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:58:51pm

re: #78 jamesfirecat

The idea that the fact that a stupid operation run by the ATF was possibly funded by the stimulus has any reflection on Obama.

that's not the story...that's a Fox tangent

81 jaunte  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:59:45pm

re: #59 JasonA

Back in the 1800's Silverton Colorado used to try to use jailed prisoners to do road work for the town, but it got expensive: they kept escaping into the mountains, carrying away the ball and chain.

82 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 6:59:52pm

re: #70 albusteve

Isn't injecting a protected class of workers into the labor market a distortion?

83 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:02:59pm

re: #81 jaunte

Back in the 1800's Silverton Colorado used to try to use jailed prisoners to do road work for the town, but it got expensive: they kept escaping into the mountains, carrying away the ball and chain.

better get back to Tennessee Jed

Youtube Video
84 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:04:06pm

re: #59 JasonA

Oh, well this makes sense.

Union Workers Replaced With Prison Labor Under Scott Walker’s Collective Bargaining Law

They are totally opposed to collective bargaining, so instead, they implement something worse than communism as a solution: slave labor.

85 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:04:26pm

re: #82 Amory Blaine

Isn't injecting a protected class of workers into the labor market a distortion?

beats me...govt is a distortion, current events are a distortion...the truth is a distortion

86 Kragar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:05:43pm

re: #84 Fozzie Bear

They are totally opposed to collective bargaining, so instead, they implement something worse than communism as a solution: slave labor.

Hey, nothing is stopping those union employees from committing felonies, getting thrown in jail and being able to get their old jobs back. Its the free market in action.
/

87 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:05:48pm

re: #59 JasonA

Oh, well this makes sense.

Union Workers Replaced With Prison Labor Under Scott Walker’s Collective Bargaining Law

Those must be some of the 250,000 jobs Walker promised during the campaign.

88 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:05:50pm

re: #84 Fozzie Bear

They are totally opposed to collective bargaining, so instead, they implement something worse than communism as a solution: slave labor.

What we have in Wisconsin is a failure to communicate.

89 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:08:03pm

re: #84 Fozzie Bear

They are totally opposed to collective bargaining, so instead, they implement something worse than communism as a solution: slave labor.

I could be wrong, but I think the prisoners can say no. The reward is time off of their sentences.

Not defending this move at all, but just calling it slave labor may be a little inaccurate,

90 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:08:42pm

re: #88 Decatur Deb

What we have in Wisconsin is a failure to communicate.

and Minn, Il, New Jersey, MI, CA...

91 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:08:49pm

From the article about prison labor in WI:

Inmates are not paid for their work, but may receive time off of their sentences.

Arbeit macht frei. Literally.

92 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:09:29pm

re: #89 JasonA

Unemployment in Wisconsin is high. People could feed their families with those jobs.

93 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:09:59pm

re: #89 JasonA

I could be wrong, but I think the prisoners can say no. The reward is time off of their sentences.

Not defending this move at all, but just calling it slave labor may be a little inaccurate,

You're right. It's more like indentured servitude.

94 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:10:00pm

re: #59 JasonA

Oh, well this makes sense.

Union Workers Replaced With Prison Labor Under Scott Walker’s Collective Bargaining Law

Such interesting times we live in!

Scott Walker might just be the best friend Obama ever had in 2012

95 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:10:32pm

re: #89 JasonA

I could be wrong, but I think the prisoners can say no. The reward is time off of their sentences.

Not defending this move at all, but just calling it slave labor may be a little inaccurate,

If you're on the receiving end of this voluntary program, and you go back to your Nation of Islam cellmate, that subtlety might be lost on you.

96 freetoken  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:10:34pm

DeMint, all the Tea Partiers, Ron Paul, etc. erroneously apply concepts of the Accounting Identity to the US budget.

Economists (real ones, not the religious nuts at Rockwell/Von Mises) try to explain that but people don't want to listen.

97 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:11:06pm

re: #37 goddamnedfrank

Find me anything approaching an equivalent statement by any Democrat, find me one willing to do the same, to cause untold damage to the economy and inflict immeasurable suffering on people in a game of political chicken.

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that “the buck stops here.” Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

closest statement I could find. Senator Obama was much more classy and thoughtful in his no vote on raising the debt ceiling. Demint is far more craven. As Harry Reid pointed out in defending his no vote, he and Sen Obama were playing a political game with the vote, and they now regret it. Demint seems to be bent on total destruction.

98 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:11:07pm

re: #92 Amory Blaine

Unemployment in Wisconsin is high. People could feed their families with those jobs.

tough shit eh?...the problem of unfunded mandates to civil unions is country wide

99 jaunte  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:12:10pm

re: #81 jaunte

Back in the 1800's Silverton Colorado used to try to use jailed prisoners to do road work for the town, but it got expensive: they kept escaping into the mountains, carrying away the ball and chain.

Took me a minute to find the shot, but here's what they carried away:
Image: SilvertonJail.jpg

100 Amory Blaine  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:12:35pm

re: #98 albusteve

tough shit eh?...the problem of unfunded mandates to civil unions is country wide

You're a great american.

101 freetoken  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:12:52pm

re: #69 Charles


The same way they hoped every other bogus scandal would bring down the black President.

If only they could discover that a Christmas tree ornament was paid for by "Stimulus" money, then they'd have something, eh?

102 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:13:20pm

re: #100 Amory Blaine

You're a great american.

the greatest...yup

103 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:14:07pm

re: #101 freetoken

If only they could discover that a Christmas tree ornament was paid for by "Stimulus" money, then they'd have something, eh?

what's bogus about the story?

104 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:14:41pm

not raising the debt ceiling and defaulting would vastly improve job prospects in areas like post-apocalyptic tribal warrior gangs and scavengers

105 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:16:31pm

re: #104 engineer dog

not raising the debt ceiling and defaulting would vastly improve job prospects in areas like post-apocalyptic tribal warrior gangs and scavengers

There are many people so unable to cope with our society that they think that would be a good career move. Start with militiamen and survivalists.

106 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:16:38pm

re: #69 Charles

Desperately hoping that this bogus scandal will finally bring down the black President.

The same way they hoped every other bogus scandal would bring down the black President.

I just don't see this panning out for them.

107 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:16:39pm

re: #104 engineer dog

not raising the debt ceiling and defaulting would vastly improve job prospects in areas like post-apocalyptic tribal warrior gangs and scavengers

I wouldn't mind being a road warrior, but does the world have to turn into a desert?

108 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:19:34pm

re: #59 JasonA

Oh, well this makes sense.

Union Workers Replaced With Prison Labor Under Scott Walker’s Collective Bargaining Law


From Talking Points Memo:

Private prison companies have helped fuel government policies which lead to an increase in prison population and boost their profits, according to a recent report.

The private prison population has grown 353.7 percent in the past 15 years, according to a study by the Justice Policy Institute. Major private prison companies have an incentive to encourage policies which keep that number on the rise.


Is it really that far-fetched to suggest there might be some correlation between the two? Why pay a union member $20 an hour when you can pay a prisoner $1 a day?

109 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:19:49pm

re: #104 engineer dog

not raising the debt ceiling and defaulting would vastly improve job prospects in areas like post-apocalyptic tribal warrior gangs and scavengers

I must admit an occasional desire to just watch it all burn, but its what comes after that is worth avoiding, at almost any cost whatsoever. I don't think the right is thinking about what comes after taking down the government. It's like there's some kind of total inability to think two steps ahead.

110 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:20:48pm

re: #108 BongCrodny

From Talking Points Memo:


Is it really that far-fetched to suggest there might be some correlation between the two? Why pay a union member $20 an hour when you can pay a prisoner $1 a day?

I'm 100% against private prisons, so you'll get no argument from me there.

111 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:22:04pm

re: #97 Gepetto

Did the Democrats actually say they wouldn't raise the debt ceiling?

And you're seriously comparing economic policy before the economic meltdown, and during the recession? Think that might have changed things a little?

112 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:22:04pm

Santana...
enjoy

Youtube Video
113 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:22:19pm

re: #110 JasonA

I'm 100% against private prisons, so you'll get no argument from me there.

Combining the profit motive with depriving people of their freedom is an incredibly dangerous confluence of interests.

114 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:23:29pm

re: #113 Fozzie Bear

Combining the profit motive with depriving people of their freedom is an incredibly dangerous confluence of interests.

(It's quite literally fascism. That's not hyperbole. It's practically the definition.)

115 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:24:50pm

re: #113 Fozzie Bear

Combining the profit motive with depriving people of their freedom is an incredibly dangerous confluence of interests.

My favorite reply to any support for the use of private prisons:

Pennsylvania rocked by 'jailing kids for cash' scandal

Ciavarella, 58, along with Conahan, 56, corruptly and fraudulently "created the potential for an increased number of juvenile offenders to be sent to juvenile detention facilities," federal court documents alleged. Children would be placed in private detention centers, under contract with the court, to increase the head count. In exchange, the two judges would receive kickbacks.

116 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:25:14pm

re: #114 Fozzie Bear

(It's quite literally fascism. That's not hyperbole. It's practically the definition.)

Did you think the kids in Wisconsin were just given to strong metaphores?

117 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:25:36pm

re: #114 Fozzie Bear

(It's quite literally fascism. That's not hyperbole. It's practically the definition.)

who cares?...not an issue...the feds bring out the very worst in people

118 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:26:23pm

re: #115 JasonA

My favorite reply to any support for the use of private prisons:

Pennsylvania rocked by 'jailing kids for cash' scandal

Oh yeah, i'll never forget that shitwreck. And its a perfect example.

119 windsagio  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:26:36pm

re: #117 albusteve

wait... what?

Your answer to this is 'the feds bring out the worst in people?'

120 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:27:09pm

re: #119 windsagio

wait... what?

Your answer to this is 'the feds bring out the worst in people?'

When did anyone bring up feds? My search-fu is weak...

121 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:27:16pm

re: #119 windsagio

wait... what?

Your answer to this is 'the feds bring out the worst in people?'

yes

122 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:27:22pm

re: #117 albusteve

who cares?...not an issue...the feds bring out the very worst in people

This has literally nothing to do with the federal government.

123 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:28:14pm

re: #122 Fozzie Bear

This has literally nothing to do with the federal government.

When all you have is a hammer...

124 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:28:19pm

"Serious Disruptions" don't seem to happen to the lawmakers. I wonder why...

125 windsagio  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:28:28pm

re: #120 JasonA

You would have to ask steve. I think he's just being a Nihilist again.

Youtube Video
126 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:29:38pm

re: #94 WindUpBird

Such interesting times we live in!

Scott Walker might just be the best friend Obama ever had in 2012

Truly, Governor halibut face of the cheese heads is the gift that keeps on giving.

127 windsagio  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:29:44pm

re: #125 windsagio

this one is better, I shoudl'nt trust titles.

Youtube Video
128 Interesting Times  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:29:44pm

re: #122 Fozzie Bear

This has literally nothing to do with the federal government.

Free-market corporations are pure and good. It's the evil, evil FEDS who force them to do bad things.

129 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:30:30pm

re: #120 JasonA

When did anyone bring up feds? My search-fu is weak...

I guess....the issue is private incarceration...if the feds are involved there will be endless trails of graft and favortism, and greed...the federal money dump is bottomless

130 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:30:38pm

re: #122 Fozzie Bear

This has literally nothing to do with the federal government.

When all else fails, cry states rights and blame the government for all your personal ills.

If that doesn't work, clutch your gun and blame Obama for all your personal ills.

131 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:31:08pm

re: #122 Fozzie Bear

This has literally nothing to do with the federal government.

sure enough, my mistake

132 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:31:16pm

re: #125 windsagio

You would have to ask steve. I think he's just being a Nihilist again.

[Video]


I'm starting to believe that no matter what the subject is, there's a relevant Big Lebowski clip.

133 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:31:29pm

re: #128 publicityStunted

If only we had voted for Strom Thurmond's party in 1948, we wouldn't have all these problems.

134 windsagio  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:31:38pm

re: #129 albusteve

dude, did you read the link up above wehre there was graft involving wrongly putting children in prison?

That wasn't the feds, man.

135 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:31:38pm

In Texas? We have the death penalty. And we use it.
-Ron White

136 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:32:32pm

re: #129 albusteve

I guess...the issue is private incarceration...if the feds are involved there will be endless trails of graft and favortism, and greed...the federal money dump is bottomless

But isn't this more of an issue with the states...?

137 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:34:09pm

re: #134 windsagio

dude, did you read the link up above wehre there was graft involving wrongly putting children in prison?

That wasn't the feds, man.

dude, dude....I'm referring to the privatizing of federal jails

138 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:34:58pm

re: #135 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

In Texas? We have the death penalty. And we use it.
-Ron White

Even on foreign nationals, and even when it violates treaties! This could never possibly backfire, ever.

139 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:35:42pm

re: #136 JasonA

But isn't this more of an issue with the states...?

Impossible. States are perfect.

Any problem a state ever has came from the federal communist socialist tyranny. We know this, because whatever states decide can't possibly be wrong.

/

140 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:36:21pm

re: #111 Obdicut

Did the Democrats actually say they wouldn't raise the debt ceiling?

And you're seriously comparing economic policy before the economic meltdown, and during the recession? Think that might have changed things a little?

what would voting "no" on a debt ceiling mean to you?

And, is it your position that we can afford to take on billions in more debt now, because the economy is worse? Or did you buy into that "summer of Recovery/ we're not in a recession" line of crap?

I don't think we can afford more debt. But, I don't think we can afford NOT to, either. Its a horrible situation, for certain, with no good answer.

141 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:36:21pm

re: #138 Fozzie Bear

Even on foreign nationals, and even when it violates treaties! This could never possibly backfire, ever.

Treaties are for people who plan to travel some day. Stay home citizen, only a godless commie pinko gay-wad liberal would want to see the world.

142 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:37:04pm

re: #140 Gepetto

what would voting "no" on a debt ceiling mean to you?

And, is it your position that we can afford to take on billions in more debt now, because the economy is worse? Or did you buy into that "summer of Recovery/ we're not in a recession" line of crap?

I don't think we can afford more debt. But, I don't think we can afford NOT to, either. Its a horrible situation, for certain, with no good answer.

Look on the bright side! Ronald Reagan proved deficits don't matter!

143 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:37:13pm

re: #138 Fozzie Bear

Even on foreign nationals, and even when it violates treaties! This could never possibly backfire, ever.

Dude should have had Casey Anthony's attorney.

144 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:37:20pm

re: #1 Obdicut

I forget the name, but a GOP from Georgia, I believe, has a bill to lower the debt ceiling by a trillion or so.

Of course he is so dumb to not realize that this means asking (not telling) our debtors to start paying us back what we already owe them, from SS recipients to China.

It hurts my brain...

145 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:37:52pm

re: #143 Decatur Deb

Dude should have had Casey Anthony's attorney.

I'm ready to never hear that name again.

146 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:38:09pm

re: #140 Gepetto

what would voting "no" on a debt ceiling mean to you?

Knowing it would pass anyway, not a whole lot. Now filibustering a debt ceiling increase on the other hand ...

147 windsagio  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:38:14pm

re: #137 albusteve

you really weren't, but I'll let you off the hook this time.

148 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:38:17pm

re: #136 JasonA

But isn't this more of an issue with the states...?

I think the Fed should set the standards for incarceration...
It bothers me some prisoners sit in pink under ware in tents in a million degrees suffering..And other inmates suing the State for Porn access..
I think it should be pretty equal and pretty fair no matter where you are..( I'm looking at you Texas )

149 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:38:24pm

re: #143 Decatur Deb

Dude should have had Casey Anthony's attorney.

No, the jury.

150 freetoken  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:38:43pm

re: #140 Gepetto

Its a horrible situation, for certain, with no good answer.

Raise taxes.

151 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:39:01pm

re: #136 JasonA

But isn't this more of an issue with the states...?

yes it is, with fed support...
[Link: government.cce.cornell.edu...]

I may be wrong but this concept has the strength of the federal govt as support

152 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:39:14pm

re: #143 Decatur Deb

Dude should have had Casey Anthony's attorney.

I now live within a few miles of the Anthony family home. Make the helicopters stop. Somebody, please, make them stop.

153 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:39:41pm

OT: But I just had a moment of Fridge Brillance.

The Taliban is not only given covert support by Pakistan, it is an outright puppet.

154 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:40:17pm

re: #140 Gepetto

what would voting "no" on a debt ceiling mean to you?

And, is it your position that we can afford to take on billions in more debt now, because the economy is worse? Or did you buy into that "summer of Recovery/ we're not in a recession" line of crap?

I don't think we can afford more debt. But, I don't think we can afford NOT to, either. Its a horrible situation, for certain, with no good answer.

We could raise taxes. It's an incredibly obvious answer. Amazingly, stupidly obvious.

155 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:40:18pm

re: #140 Gepetto

what would voting "no" on a debt ceiling mean to you?

And, is it your position that we can afford to take on billions in more debt now, because the economy is worse? Or did you buy into that "summer of Recovery/ we're not in a recession" line of crap?

I don't think we can afford more debt. But, I don't think we can afford NOT to, either. Its a horrible situation, for certain, with no good answer.

i'll go out on a limb and say i think we can afford more debt

156 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:40:32pm

re: #152 Fozzie Bear

I now live within a few miles of the Anthony family home. Make the helicopters stop. Somebody, please, make them stop.

In three weeks she'll be your waitress at Hooters.

157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:41:24pm

re: #138 Fozzie Bear

Did you see what this motherfucker did? What he admitted to?

Fuck him. I'm glad he's dead.

158 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:41:54pm

re: #147 windsagio

you really weren't, but I'll let you off the hook this time.

yes I was you dope...you don't have anybody on a hook, least of all me

159 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:42:05pm

re: #157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Did you see what this motherfucker did? What he admitted to?

Fuck him. I'm glad he's dead.

That's not the point, FBV.

160 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:42:13pm

re: #156 darthstar

In three weeks she'll be your waitress at Hooters.

Until the book deal.

161 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:42:21pm

re: #143 Decatur Deb

Dude should have had Casey Anthony's attorney.

Youtube Video
162 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:42:26pm

re: #156 darthstar

In three weeks she'll be your waitress at Hooters.

I'd say her career options are somewhat limited at this point. Who the hell would hire her, after all that?

163 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:42:44pm

re: #160 Decatur Deb

Until the book deal.

She's getting paid to read a book?

164 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:42:51pm

re: #162 Fozzie Bear

I'd say her career options are somewhat limited at this point. Who the hell would hire her, after all that?

Vivid?

165 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:42:57pm

re: #158 albusteve

yes I was you dope...you don't have anybody on a hook, least of all me

Mmm, temper-temper.

166 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:43:07pm

re: #162 Fozzie Bear

I'd say her career options are somewhat limited at this point. Who the hell would hire her, after all that?

Fox News needs a legal analyst.

167 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:43:09pm

re: #157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Did you see what this motherfucker did? What he admitted to?

Fuck him. I'm glad he's dead.

"It's impressive to see a man feeding off his emotions."
-Somerset, Seven

168 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:43:10pm

re: #140 Gepetto

what would voting "no" on a debt ceiling mean to you?

And, is it your position that we can afford to take on billions in more debt now, because the economy is worse? Or did you buy into that "summer of Recovery/ we're not in a recession" line of crap?

No, it's the simple economics that, when in a recession, the government should spend money to get the country out of it. This has been totally basic economics for years, until the ghost of Ayn Rand infected the Republican party.

The time to cut spending is during boom times-- and of course, nobody does because hey, boom times.


I don't think we can afford more debt. But, I don't think we can afford NOT to, either. Its a horrible situation, for certain, with no good answer.

The obvious answer is raising taxes back to some portion of the level they used to be at.

169 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:43:23pm

re: #159 JasonA

That's not the point, FBV.

then what is the 'point'?

170 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:43:40pm

re: #157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Did you see what this motherfucker did? What he admitted to?

Fuck him. I'm glad he's dead.

I have no idea what he did, but it really doesn't matter. We should have honored our treaties, because the treaties are WAY more important than getting revenge on one sick puppy.

171 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:43:52pm

re: #165 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Mmm, temper-temper.

noob

172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:43:59pm

re: #159 JasonA

Yep. It's the point. Moved to the US as a toddler and trying to hide under the sombrero of Mexico?

Fuck him. I am glad he is dead.

173 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:44:13pm

re: #151 albusteve

yes it is, with fed support...
[Link: government.cce.cornell.edu...]

I may be wrong but this concept has the strength of the federal govt as support

Dated Dec. 2002.

174 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:44:32pm

re: #169 albusteve

then what is the 'point'?

The point is that any nation imprisoning an American can throw this back in our faces and not allow us to help our own citizens.

175 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:44:44pm

re: #168 Obdicut

How do we get rid of Ayn Rand's ghost?

I admit I hate that woman. She was an evil sociopath.

176 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:44:52pm

re: #171 albusteve

noob

Weak.

177 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:44:53pm

re: #159 JasonA

That's not the point, FBV.

I took away this as the point:

"Americans detained overseas rely on their access to U.S. consulates every day," Leahy said after the Supreme Court decision was announced. "If we expect other countries to abide by the treaties they join, the United States must also honor its obligations."

178 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:45:27pm

re: #170 Fozzie Bear

I have no idea what he did, but it really doesn't matter. We should have honored our treaties, because the treaties are WAY more important than getting revenge on one sick puppy.

who's we?...his own defense lawyers didn't even bring this up

179 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:45:36pm

re: #172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yep. It's the point. Moved to the US as a toddler and trying to hide under the sombrero of Mexico?

Fuck him. I am glad he is dead.

I think your missing the forest for the trees, but I won't hold it against you all that much.

180 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:45:44pm

re: #169 albusteve

then what is the 'point'?

Texans and anybody remotely related to Rick Perry ought not plan on vacationing outside the country for the rest of forever.

181 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:45:51pm

re: #175 ProLifeLiberal

How do we get rid of Ayn Rand's ghost?

I admit I hate that woman. She was an evil sociopath.

Education and getting kids to connect with a broader world. Education, of course, is heavily under attack right now, and the hard right is schooling their kids to try to ignore stuff like science and statistics, so it's going to be tough going to reach them.

182 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:45:58pm

re: #169 albusteve

then what is the 'point'?

The point is, if Americans are arrested (with or without cause) in other countries, they can cite this case as precedent for not allowing our government to intervene on behalf of them.

183 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:46:03pm

re: #138 Fozzie Bear

Even on foreign nationals, and even when it violates treaties! This could never possibly backfire, ever.

You are talking of Mexico? Like they don't have bigger problems with even worse people.//

184 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:46:09pm

re: #176 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Weak.

then stay away

185 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:46:44pm

re: #175 ProLifeLiberal

How do we get rid of Ayn Rand's ghost?

I admit I hate that woman. She was an evil sociopath.


Who you gonna call?

Galtbusters!

186 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:46:45pm

re: #175 ProLifeLiberal

How do we get rid of Ayn Rand's ghost?

I admit I hate that woman. She was an evil sociopath.

Bioshock... lots and lots... AND LOTS of Bioshock.

187 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:46:48pm

re: #184 albusteve

then stay away

Why should I, because you say so?

rotfl

188 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:47:21pm

re: #175 ProLifeLiberal

How do we get rid of Ayn Rand's ghost?

I admit I hate that woman. She was an evil sociopath.

And a frickin hypocrite.

189 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:47:33pm

I wonder if a soldier from the Texas guard is allowed to execute civilians during wartime as well, because hey, binding international law like that Commie Geneva thing doesn't apply to Texas ya'll.

190 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:47:35pm

re: #178 albusteve

who's we?...his own defense lawyers didn't even bring this up

The federal government did. Not sure about his lawyers. But hey, its Texas. The rest of the world is just a bunch of fags, and Americans who betray their country by traveling abroad are super double-fags, so fuck 'em.

191 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:47:37pm

re: #174 JasonA

The point is that any nation imprisoning an American can throw this back in our faces and not allow us to help our own citizens.

If this is the best they can throw ...(something rude)..

192 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:47:45pm

re: #174 JasonA

The point is that any nation imprisoning an American can throw this back in our faces and not allow us to help our own citizens.

then lawyers in foreign countries better be on their toes eh?...you snooze you lose these days

193 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:48:51pm

re: #192 albusteve

then lawyers in foreign countries better be on their toes eh?...you snooze you lose these days

There's that disaffected nihilism we've come to know and love.

194 darthstar  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:49:20pm

re: #193 goddamnedfrank

There's that disaffected nihilism we've come to know and love.

He's just pretending to be an ignorant asshole.

195 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:49:23pm

re: #190 Fozzie Bear

The federal government did. Not sure about his lawyers. But hey, its Texas. The rest of the world is just a bunch of fags, and Americans who betray their country by traveling abroad are super double-fags, so fuck 'em.

it was too little too late...what is Texas supposed to do?...they abided by the law

196 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:49:33pm

re: #193 goddamnedfrank

There's that disaffected nihilism we've come to know and love.

It's like distilled Darwinism...

197 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:50:13pm

re: #195 albusteve

it was too little too late...what is Texas supposed to do?...they abided by the law

That's the point. They completely ignored federal law. But the feds are always bad, so I guess that's good, right?

198 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:50:13pm

re: #195 albusteve

notify him of his consular right under vienna

199 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:50:36pm

re: #195 albusteve

it was too little too late...what is Texas supposed to do?...they abided by the law

Unless I'm misunderstanding this, no, they didn't follow the law. That's the problem.

200 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:50:44pm

re: #193 goddamnedfrank

There's that disaffected nihilism we've come to know and love.

thanks, you're really sharp...maybe you can contribute something?

201 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:51:14pm

re: #196 JasonA

It's like distilled Darwinism...

with a dash of broken dreams.

202 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:51:17pm

re: #188 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

And a frickin hypocrite.

Yep, absolutely hated the government and welfare...up until she got diagnosed with lung cancer. Then she and hubby did everything possible to fast-track onto Medicare.

But that really describes the Rand cult to a T: "The government is bad...until it's wiping my ass, then we're good. Why? Because I 'paid' for it!"

203 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:51:36pm

re: #199 JasonA

Unless I'm misunderstanding this, no, they didn't follow the law. That's the problem.

It's not a law if Texas didn't write it. Or rather, grunt it out in a series of guttural moans, because reading and writing are for fags.

204 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:52:20pm

i kind of want to find out if it is possible to pass sanctions against sub-entities of states under international law. putting sanctions on texas for being a rogue barbarian province devoid of human rights would be fun.

205 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:52:25pm

re: #202 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

My principles are for other people to follow, not me!

206 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:52:29pm

re: #199 JasonA

Unless I'm misunderstanding this, no, they didn't follow the law. That's the problem.

The Supreme Court ruled that they did.

The court rejected the request 5-4. Its five more conservative justices doubted that executing Leal would cause grave international consequences, and doubted "that it is ever appropriate to stay a lower court judgment in light of unenacted legislation."

"Our task is to rule on what the law is, not what it might eventually be," the majority said.

The court's four liberal-leaning justices said they would have granted the stay.

Leal's attorney Sandra L. Babcock said that with consular help her client could have shown that he was not guilty. But she added, "This case was not just about one Mexican national on death row in Texas. The execution of Mr. Leal violates the United States' treaty commitments, threatens the nation's foreign policy interests, and undermines the safety of all Americans abroad."

I really don't get how obviously violating a treaty is constitutional, but I'm not a Supreme Court judge.

207 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:53:06pm

re: #197 Fozzie Bear

That's the point. They completely ignored federal law. But the feds are always bad, so I guess that's good, right?

The federal government is just like slavery!

Thank heaven for the clear vision of Steve/Our modern-day Harriet Tubman!

208 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:53:30pm

re: #206 Obdicut

The Supreme Court ruled that they did.

I really don't get how obviously violating a treaty is constitutional, but I'm not a Supreme Court judge.

*sigh* Alrighty then.

209 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:53:35pm

re: #206 Obdicut

The Supreme Court ruled that they did.

I really don't get how obviously violating a treaty is constitutional, but I'm not a Supreme Court judge.

You still have your soul, that's the problem.

210 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:54:03pm

re: #115 JasonA

Private prisons are like privatizing police or fire, should be illegal

211 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:54:16pm

re: #209 goddamnedfrank

You still have your soul, that's the problem.

Pretty sure I remember selling mine for Pogs, but it that was a long time back...

///

212 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:54:44pm

re: #207 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

The federal government is just like slavery!

Thank heaven for the clear vision of Steve/Our modern-day Harriet Tubman!

slavery?...take you racist shit elsewhere...I never said such a thing

213 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:54:52pm

re: #206 Obdicut

treaties are second only to the constitution under us law. they are higher than federal statutes that they come after, and always higher than state law. the court completely dodged the question of whether vienna actually creates a right or not.

214 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:55:02pm

re: #206 Obdicut

The Supreme Court ruled that they did.

I really don't get how obviously violating a treaty is constitutional, but I'm not a Supreme Court judge.

Ah, shit I guess it was legal then. Incredibly stupid, dangerous, and likely to have some very ugly effects for traveling Americans, but legal. I stand corrected.

215 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:55:35pm

re: #210 WindUpBird

Private prisons are like privatizing police or fire, should be illegal

Totally agree..

216 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:55:48pm

re: #211 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Pretty sure I remember selling mine for Pogs, but it that was a long time back...

///

I think it grows back over time, so its cool.

217 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:56:31pm

re: #202 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yep, absolutely hated the government and welfare...up until she got diagnosed with lung cancer. Then she and hubby did everything possible to fast-track onto Medicare.

But that really describes the Rand cult to a T: "The government is bad...until it's wiping my ass, then we're good. Why? Because I 'paid' for it!"

Also a friendly witness to HUAC, one of the biggest government taxpayer wastes in US history. [Link: www.noblesoul.com...]

218 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:57:48pm

re: #217 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Also a friendly witness to HUAC, one of the biggest government taxpayer wastes in US history. [Link: www.noblesoul.com...]

There's nothing that screams freedom from every rooftop like depriving people of their ability to work based on political preference. Rand was such an idealist. /

219 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:57:55pm

re: #216 Fozzie Bear

I think it grows back over time, so its cool.

Damn, and here I thought was rid of this "conscience" thing.

//

220 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:58:07pm

re: #212 albusteve

slavery?...take you racist shit elsewhere...I never said such a thing

Poking fun at your sullen posts is not "racist", PC Man. /cluesarefree

221 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 7:58:49pm

re: #214 Fozzie Bear

Ah, shit I guess it was legal then. Incredibly stupid, dangerous, and likely to have some very ugly effects for traveling Americans, but legal. I stand corrected.

when I posted this story earlier today, I said it was mess, and it is...I didn't judge it one way or the other...resolution is what interests me, not phony accusations

222 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:01:42pm

re: #221 albusteve

when I posted this story earlier today, I said it was mess, and it is...I didn't judge it one way or the other...resolution is what interests me, not phony accusations

Well, the only reason I care about the case at all is that I like to travel, and like to think that it would be possible for me to get some help from my country were I to get in trouble. The execution in Texas recently makes me less safe, along with anybody else who travels abroad. That's why it pisses me off.

223 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:01:54pm

re: #214 Fozzie Bear

So just when did he claim to be a citizen of Mexico? Have not found yet when he did. This case has gone thru state courts and federal courts and his appeals were rejected at all levels.

Plus he gave statements before he was arrested and they were ruled admisable. He was convicted along with other evidence that indicated his guilt.

224 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:02:30pm

re: #218 Fozzie Bear

There's nothing that screams freedom from every rooftop like depriving people of their ability to work based on political preference. Rand was such an idealist. /

I think she just couldn't compete and wanted everything handed to her, including an A-lister Hollywood career.

Didn't get it? Aww, go run to the government and purport to tattle that your peers are communists, that will show them!

225 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:03:28pm

re: #220 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Poking fun at your sullen posts is not "racist", PC Man. /cluesarefree

I post what I think, your opinion means nothing actually...if you don't like it, so be it

226 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:04:29pm

re: #222 Fozzie Bear

Well, the only reason I care about the case at all is that I like to travel, and like to think that it would be possible for me to get some help from my country were I to get in trouble. The execution in Texas recently makes me less safe, along with anybody else who travels abroad. That's why it pisses me off.

I can understand that

227 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:05:11pm

Nature misses you, your presence is lacking.
[Link: www.wemissyou.de...]

228 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:06:08pm

re: #204 SpaceJesus

i kind of want to find out if it is possible to pass sanctions against sub-entities of states under international law. putting sanctions on texas for being a rogue barbarian province devoid of human rights would be fun.


The Rick Perry constituents should just secede already and quit barking/whining about it.

Who will miss them?

229 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:06:08pm

'Nite, all.

230 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:06:09pm

re: #223 dell*nix

So just when did he claim to be a citizen of Mexico? Have not found yet when he did. This case has gone thru state courts and federal courts and his appeals were rejected at all levels.

Plus he gave statements before he was arrested and they were ruled admisable. He was convicted along with other evidence that indicated his guilt.

I don't know a whole lot about the case, other than the implications for Americans traveling abroad. It's not like the treaty said we have to turn foreign nationals over to another government, regardless of what crime they commit. All it said was we have to allow them to meet with a consulate. What could it have hurt to allow that?

231 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:07:03pm

re: #225 albusteve

I post what I think,

Everyone here posts what they think. Big deal, get real.

232 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:08:05pm

re: #231 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Everyone here posts what they think. Big deal, get real.

get real?...LOL!

233 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:08:35pm

re: #228 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

i would drink heavily, then sing and dance in the streets if i heard that texas had left the united states.

234 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:09:12pm

re: #227 Killgore Trout

What's the number mean?

235 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:09:25pm

re: #230 Fozzie Bear

I don't know a whole lot about the case, other than the implications for Americans traveling abroad. It's not like the treaty said we have to turn foreign nationals over to another government, regardless of what crime they commit. All it said was we have to allow them to meet with a consulate. What could it have hurt to allow that?

it's my understanding that the issue of his nationality never came up before or during his trial...that's significant

236 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:09:26pm

re: #233 SpaceJesus

i would drink heavily, then sing and dance in the streets if i heard that texas had left the united states.

Not me.

I don't drink...

237 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:10:00pm

re: #224 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I think she just couldn't compete and wanted everything handed to her, including an A-lister Hollywood career.

Didn't get it? Aww, go run to the government and purport to tattle that your peers are communists, that will show them!

Well, her "philosophy" is basically that if you can crush those who stand in your way under your heel, you should. So, I guess its consistent, if nothing else. Objectivism basically boils down to "fuck everyone else, I got mine."

238 Interesting Times  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:10:15pm

re: #224 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I think she he just couldn't compete and wanted everything handed to her him, including an A-lister Hollywood career.

Didn't get it? Aww, go run to the government GOP and Fox and purport to tattle that your peers are communists, that will show them!

Updated (i.e. now it describes Breitbart)

239 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:10:21pm

re: #225 albusteve

I post what I think, ...

"It's my hot body, ah do what ah want!"

Youtube Video
240 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:10:28pm

austin can stay, the rest can become perryland

not katy perry, she is awesome. the other one.

241 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:10:34pm

re: #233 SpaceJesus

i would drink heavily, then sing and dance in the streets if i heard that texas had left the united states.

sounds like Fox Nation stuff

242 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:11:00pm

re: #230 Fozzie Bear

And if the arrestee is an illegal alien and does not convey that fact to the authorities and requests counsular aid? All the counsul can do is try to see to it that you get representation in accordance with local law.

As long as you are traveling legally and request notification of the embassy then you stand a fair chance of getting it. Does not mean you will get it, but it does help state if you can show you requested notification and were denied it.

243 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:11:35pm

re: #168 Obdicut
Ah yes, raise taxes....so simple, so easy. If I was Jeff Immelt, I too would be whispering in the President's ear that its time to raise taxes.

Here's the problem with the "raise taxes" meme. The focus should be on increasing tax revenue, and too often we get focused on the simplistic charade of raising taxes. Its a goddam briar patch. If a BigCorp is paying little to no income taxes at current rates, raising the rates will not raise tax revenues. The only way to recapture revenue is to revise the tax codes, and that is the real third rail no party's gonna touch. There's a reason for the wildly increasing page count of the current tax code, and that reason has little to do with the lower and middle class, and a lot to do with shielding the true employers of our government.

But, go ahead, raise those rates, chuck those rich bastards into that briar patch.

244 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:12:15pm

re: #237 Fozzie Bear

Well, her "philosophy" is basically that if you can crush those who stand in your way under your heel, you should. So, I guess its consistent, if nothing else. Objectivism basically boils down to "fuck everyone else, I got mine."

Lol..."even if I have to get the government to try and deprive my peers of a living."

Social conservatism is one thing. Anti-social conservatism...just, ugh.

245 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:12:32pm

re: #235 albusteve

it's my understanding that the issue of his nationality never came up before or during his trial...that's significant

I would be significant if the obligation to inform him of his consular rights didn't rest with the authorities.

246 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:13:03pm

re: #244 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Lol..."even if I have to get the government to try and deprive my peers of a living."

Social conservatism is one thing. Anti-social conservatism...just, ugh.

That's the thing. Rand wasn't conservative at all. She was essentially a fascist.

247 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:13:39pm

re: #242 dell*nix


pretty sure they are going to question you as to who you are, what you do, where you are from, etc.

248 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:14:24pm

re: #245 goddamnedfrank

I would be significant if the obligation to inform him of his consular rights didn't rest with the authorities.

they didn't know he was an illegal...it's a bitch eh?...figure it out from the facts rather than you skewed perception of what should have gone down

249 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:14:29pm

re: #233 SpaceJesus

i would drink heavily, then sing and dance in the streets if i heard that texas had left the united states.

Texas can't leave the USA.. Although they have threatened to since day one..They could go on one hand..They are the only state in the Union that have their own power grid...But they have the Dallas Cowboys..America's team and I'm pretty sure Jerry has more power than the Republic of Texas..
Texas ain't going anywhere

250 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:14:38pm

re: #222 Fozzie Bear

Well, the only reason I care about the case at all is that I like to travel, and like to think that it would be possible for me to get some help from my country were I to get in trouble. The execution in Texas recently makes me less safe, along with anybody else who travels abroad. That's why it pisses me off.

Fozzie, he didn't even mention that he was a Mexican National until way after he went to trial. He was 2 years old when he came here.
He raped and brutally murdered a 16 year old San Antonio girl. He bashed her skull in with a 35 lb piece of asphalt.

TX has the death penalty and uses it. I am not always for that, but if anybody deserves it, this one did.

251 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:14:54pm

re: #235 albusteve

yes, let's encourage law enforcement to see what they can get away with

252 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:15:05pm

re: #243 Gepetto

Ah yes, raise taxes...so simple, so easy. If I was Jeff Immelt, I too would be whispering in the President's ear that its time to raise taxes.

Here's the problem with the "raise taxes" meme. The focus should be on increasing tax revenue, and too often we get focused on the simplistic charade of raising taxes. Its a goddam briar patch. If a BigCorp is paying little to no income taxes at current rates, raising the rates will not raise tax revenues. The only way to recapture revenue is to revise the tax codes, and that is the real third rail no party's gonna touch. There's a reason for the wildly increasing page count of the current tax code, and that reason has little to do with the lower and middle class, and a lot to do with shielding the true employers of our government.

But, go ahead, raise those rates, chuck those rich bastards into that briar patch.

Yes. They will suffer unimaginably under the boot heel of another 3%...

253 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:15:28pm

re: #246 Fozzie Bear

That's the thing. Rand wasn't conservative at all. She was essentially a fascist.

Rand's only real problem with socialism is that it'd robbed her family of a very cushy life. Otherwise, she was every bit as thuggish and tyrannical as Stalin.

254 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:15:43pm

re: #247 SpaceJesus

And if you refuse to identify yourself as a citizen of another country? What then? How do they know if you are a citizen or not? Especially if you were raised in that culture since the age of two?

255 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:16:19pm

re: #249 HoosierHoops

Texas can't leave the USA.. Although they have threatened to since day one..They could go on one hand..They are the only state in the Union that have their own power grid...But they have the Dallas Cowboys..America's team and I'm pretty sure Jerry has more power than the Republic of Texas..
Texas ain't going anywhere

You're right.

Who would the run to, demanding federal aid for their problems?

Fair-weather secessionists...

256 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:16:21pm

re: #250 blueraven


not the point, the authorities have a legal obligation to notify any foreign national that he or she may have access to their consulate if accused of a crime.

257 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:17:02pm

re: #249 HoosierHoops

Texas can't leave the USA.. Although they have threatened to since day one..They could go on one hand..They are the only state in the Union that have their own power grid...But they have the Dallas Cowboys..America's team and I'm pretty sure Jerry has more power than the Republic of Texas..
Texas ain't going anywhere

the Cowboys are a billion dollar business these days...heh, no small thing when talk goes to splitting the US

258 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:17:28pm

re: #254 dell*nix


then it's quite easy for the authorities to say "if you are not a citizen of the united states, you have the right to access your consulate" if they cannot determine your origin.

259 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:17:38pm

re: #256 SpaceJesus

not the point, the authorities have a legal obligation to notify any foreign national that he or she may have access to their consulate if accused of a crime.

They did not know he was a foreign national!

260 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:18:00pm

re: #252 JasonA

Yes. They will suffer unimaginably under the boot heel of another 3%...

Remember back in '93, when Clinton raised the tax rates? When you saw investors jumping out of the windows? The stock market crashing like it was '29 all over again? And the soup lines that stretched for blocks?

But thank God Bush came into office and cut the tax rates down, so that happy days were here again.

///^nth

261 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:18:41pm

re: #250 blueraven

Fozzie, he didn't even mention that he was a Mexican National until way after he went to trial. He was 2 years old when he came here.
He raped and brutally murdered a 16 year old San Antonio girl. He bashed her skull in with a 35 lb piece of asphalt.

TX has the death penalty and uses it. I am not always for that, but if anybody deserves it, this one did.

Yeah, I get that. But it just doesn't matter how evil he is, or how flimsy his argument is. What harm could have come from honoring the treaty? Just let him meet with the consulate, then execute him. I don't get why they flatly refused to cooperate with the Obama administration, other than because the administration asked them to do something, and if you cooperate with Obama, that's bad... or something. I don't get it, at all.

262 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:18:58pm

re: #251 SpaceJesus

yes, let's encourage law enforcement to see what they can get away with

you're the newbie lawyer...you make the call instead of making up what you suppose I think

263 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:19:02pm

re: #246 Fozzie Bear

That's the thing. Rand wasn't conservative at all. She was essentially a fascist.

Too bad she appeals to so many rwnj.

264 Gus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:19:29pm

Beelzebub!

265 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:19:46pm

re: #260 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Remember back in '93, when Clinton raised the tax rates? When you saw investors jumping out of the windows? The stock market crashing like it was '29 all over again? And the soup lines that stretched for blocks?

But thank God Bush came into office and cut the tax rates down, so that happy days were here again.

///^nth

Oh, the languished and tearful cries of the well-to-do do keep me up at nights, they truly do...

266 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:20:14pm

re: #261 Fozzie Bear

Yeah, I get that. But it just doesn't matter how evil he is, or how flimsy his argument is. What harm could have come from honoring the treaty? Just let him meet with the consulate, then execute him. I don't get why they flatly refused to cooperate with the Obama administration, other than because the administration asked them to do something, and if you cooperate with Obama, that's bad... or something. I don't get it, at all.

Didn't the Bush administration make the same request?

267 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:20:23pm

re: #256 SpaceJesus

not the point, the authorities have a legal obligation to notify any foreign national that he or she may have access to their consulate if accused of a crime.

that's profiling!

268 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:20:33pm

re: #254 dell*nix

And if you refuse to identify yourself as a citizen of another country? What then? How do they know if you are a citizen or not? Especially if you were raised in that culture since the age of two?


Raises a lot of questions.

Shouldn't we answer questions like that before the death penalty is implemented?

269 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:20:38pm

re: #258 SpaceJesus

He was in Texas from the age of two. Saying to any Hispanic comments about potential citizenship would have resulted in screams of racism. Or do you want that included in your miranda rights reading?

270 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:20:58pm

re: #256 SpaceJesus

not the point, the authorities have a legal obligation to notify any foreign national that he or she may have access to their consulate if accused of a crime.

And if someone comes to this country they are legally obligated to live by the laws of our country. That would include rape and murder. No sympathy!

271 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:21:30pm

re: #270 blueraven

And if someone comes to this country they are legally obligated to live by the laws of our country. That would include rape and murder. No sympathy!

No one said he was above the law here.

272 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:21:31pm

re: #266 JasonA

Didn't the Bush administration make the same request?

No idea. Did they? Given this was a capital case, I imagine it has been going on for at least a few years.

273 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:21:42pm

re: #264 Gus 802

Beelzebub!

Are we at the crossroads again? I must have made a wrong transfer
/

274 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:22:01pm

re: #261 Fozzie Bear

Yeah, I get that. But it just doesn't matter how evil he is, or how flimsy his argument is. What harm could have come from honoring the treaty? Just let him meet with the consulate, then execute him. I don't get why they flatly refused to cooperate with the Obama administration, other than because the administration asked them to do something, and if you cooperate with Obama, that's bad... or something. I don't get it, at all.

I guess you don't seem to understand...nobody knew he was a Mexican national, including his lawyers

275 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:22:42pm

re: #266 JasonA

Didn't the Bush administration make the same request?

Yes

276 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:22:46pm

re: #272 Fozzie Bear

No idea. Did they? Given this was a capital case, I imagine it has been going on for at least a few years.

From Fox of all places...

Death Penalty Case Puts Bush and Texas at Odds Over Mexican's Fate

Read more: [Link: www.foxnews.com...]

277 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:23:09pm

re: #256 SpaceJesus

not the point, the authorities have a legal obligation to notify any foreign national that he or she may have access to their consulate if accused of a crime.

If its incorrect to ask to see someone's "papers" and if they don't reveal their national origin until they are far into a trial, how is that the obligation of the authorities?

278 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:23:10pm

re: #270 blueraven

And if someone comes to this country they are legally obligated to live by the laws of our country. That would include rape and murder. No sympathy!

My objection to Texas' actions in this matter isn't about sympathy. It's about pissing off allies for no gain whatsoever on our behalf. Why?

279 Gus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:23:39pm

re: #273 HoosierHoops

Are we at the crossroads again? I must have made a wrong transfer
/

Estamos en la Republica de Tejas!

//

280 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:23:47pm

re: #274 albusteve

I guess you don't seem to understand...nobody knew he was a Mexican national, including his lawyers

They knew before he was executed, didn't they? Perry could have postponed it, easily.

281 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:23:53pm

re: #268 BongCrodny

It has been 17 years since the trial. And a lot of appeals. And the Bush request to the courts was denied.

282 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:23:57pm

re: #259 blueraven


vienna does not make that distinction

283 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:24:25pm

This really is a binary equation here. Is he a foreign national? If "yes," continue reading. If "no," skip to page 13.

284 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:24:44pm

re: #280 Fozzie Bear

They knew before he was executed, didn't they? Perry could have postponed it, easily.

too bad..he did it and he paid...
is there more to it?

285 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:25:04pm

re: #243 Gepetto

Do you ever attempt to have an actual conversation, dude?

And of all the memes, the 'raising taxes won't produce more revenue' one is probably the most tired.

286 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:25:30pm

re: #283 JasonA

This really is a binary equation here. Is he a foreign national? If "yes," continue reading. If "no," skip to page 13.

heh...
good one

287 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:25:33pm

re: #284 albusteve

too bad..he did it and he paid...
is there more to it?

We'll see. Now there's a bad precedent set. That may or may not cause problems in the future.

288 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:25:38pm

re: #283 JasonA

This really is a binary equation here. Is he a foreign national? If "yes," continue reading. If "no," skip to page 13.

Pick Your Own Adventure: International Law

//

289 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:25:56pm

re: #265 JasonA

Oh, the languished and tearful cries of the well-to-do do keep me up at nights, they truly do...

Great big giant federal gubmint is oppressing me just for being who I am!

And nobody cares!! /poorme /teabaggerPC

290 freetoken  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:26:58pm

Polar Bear mitochondrial Eve (i.e., most recent common female ancestor):

Scientists say all polar bears descended from single female brown bear


All polar bears alive today are descended from a single female brown bear who most likely hailed not from Alaska -- as widely presumed -- but from Ireland, scientists said.

The discovery, reported online Thursday in the journal Current Biology, suggests that polar bears and various species of brown bears probably encountered each other many times over the last 100,000 years or so as climate change forced them into each others' territory. On some occasions, those meetings produced hybrid offspring whose genetic signature lives on in polar bears today.

[...]

291 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:27:03pm

re: #269 dell*nix

not if neutrally applied

292 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:27:07pm

re: #287 Fozzie Bear

We'll see. Now there's a bad precedent set. That may or may not cause problems in the future.

perps had ought to give up their nationality...the rest will take care of itself

293 Gus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:27:15pm

I gather some of you are referring to that execution in Texas.

294 Gus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:27:54pm

re: #292 albusteve

perps had ought to give up their nationality...the rest will take care of itself

Yeah. That always works. Especially with countries we hate.

//

295 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:28:03pm

re: #293 Gus 802

I gather some of you are referring to that execution in Texas.

It's either that or Casey Anthony...

296 Gus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:28:28pm

re: #295 JasonA

It's either that or Casey Anthony...

Who?

//

297 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:28:49pm

re: #295 JasonA

It's either that or Casey Anthony...

God, if I have to hear more about that, I may end up killing someone.

//

298 albusteve  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:29:17pm

re: #294 Gus 802

Yeah. That always works. Especially with countries we hate.

//

that's the argument here...snark away tho

299 Gus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:29:36pm

Mexicannationaltexasdeathpenatlytexasseccesionbushtaxcutsobamacaseyanthonything.

//

300 Gus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:30:05pm

re: #298 albusteve

that's the argument here...snark away tho

Too late! New thread! Everybody upstairs! //

301 blueraven  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:30:24pm

re: #284 albusteve

too bad..he did it and he paid...
is there more to it?

Yes, this. You do not get to come here, enjoy the benefits, education, opportunity etc..then rape and murder, get a free court appointed lawyer at tax payers expense, get convicted and then scream...I am from Mexico!!

302 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:30:31pm

re: #277 Gepetto

If its incorrect to ask to see someone's "papers" and if they don't reveal their national origin until they are far into a trial, how is that the obligation of the authorities?


if you ask every single arrestee where they are from it is fine, because it is neutral. you're not asking for probable cause. ever been through a border patrol check point? they asking everybody where they are from, that's why it is legal.

303 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:31:36pm

re: #293 Gus 802

Yes. A case that has been winding its way thru the courts for 17 years.

What I haven't heard is what happened to the other males at the party she was abducted from.

304 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:33:59pm

re: #303 dell*nix

Should have said "at the party the victim was abducted from."

305 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:34:58pm

re: #285 Obdicut

sure.

it may be tired, but its true. With the current tax code, it is virtually impossible to raise tax revenue by going back to whatever rates of Golden Yesteryear you want to quote. The page count of the code, the manipulations heaped upon modifications, has far outstripped the government's ability to collect at whatever rates we need. If you really want to go back to the tax rates of Eisenhower, you are going to have to roll back the codes to what existed at that time, too, or you are going to be very very disappointed in your results. Raising the rates as a symbolic measure might make a point, but it won't pay enough into the treasury to amount to a solution.

306 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:35:32pm

re: #302 SpaceJesus

if you ask every single arrestee where they are from it is fine, because it is neutral. you're not asking for probable cause. ever been through a border patrol check point? they asking everybody where they are from, that's why it is legal.

Place of birth is also asked every time I fill out a DROS check form to purchase a firearm.

307 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:36:26pm

re: #302 SpaceJesus

i agree. but what if they don't tell you?

308 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:37:17pm

re: #281 dell*nix

It has been 17 years since the trial. And a lot of appeals. And the Bush request to the courts was denied.


I don't think anyone here is saying Leal should be set free or that he shouldn't be punished according to the full judgment of law.

But how often do you see both the Obama and Bush administrations on the same side of the issue? There are a lot of people on both sides of the political fence concerned about the greater implications; does it really harm anybody if he spends another year on death row while they consider the potential ramifications of the move?

309 Gus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:38:12pm

re: #303 dell*nix

Yes. A case that has been winding its way thru the courts for 17 years.

What I haven't heard is what happened to the other males at the party she was abducted from.

Well. I generally have supported the death penalty in the past. Lately I'm starting to have second thoughts. However, I'll think it through in support of the death penalty. I think it was a bad move on several fronts. For one, they have no death penalty in Mexico. If they had it would have been easier to apply the logic of "he would have faced the death penalty in Mexico." Its also sets a bad precedent and other more rogue nations will use this as an example to "do as they please" with American prisoners. Mostly it's not good for international relations with Mexico -- a country that is our purported ally. I agree with Senator Leahy:

"Americans detained overseas rely on their access to U.S. consulates every day...If we expect other countries to abide by the treaties they join, the United States must also honor its obligations."

310 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:39:13pm

re: #305 Gepetto

sure.

it may be tired, but its true. With the current tax code, it is virtually impossible to raise tax revenue by going back to whatever rates of Golden Yesteryear you want to quote.

But that's simply wrong. You can show revenue dropping after the Bush cuts. If they were restored, you'd see that revenue again. That's totally independent of the other state of the tax code.

Does the tax code need revision? Yes. Does that mean raising taxes somehow produces no more revenue? Obviously not.

311 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:45:12pm

re: #307 Gepetto


if they don't tell you that you have a right to see your embassy? then they are in violation of law.

312 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:50:05pm

re: #309 Gus 802

"a country that is our purported ally".

Not much of an ally from what I have seen lately. Again, when did he get identified as a Mexican citizen? As I understand it, not until the trial was mostly over or actually over with. Did Mexico assist with his appeals? If not, why not? It has been all the way to the Supreme Court and denied. And how is an ex post facto law going to help overturn his conviction?

313 BongCrodny  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:53:28pm

re: #312 dell*nix

"a country that is our purported ally".

Not much of an ally from what I have seen lately. Again, when did he get identified as a Mexican citizen? As I understand it, not until the trial was mostly over or actually over with. Did Mexico assist with his appeals? If not, why not? It has been all the way to the Supreme Court and denied. And how is an ex post facto law going to help overturn his conviction?


His defense attorneys were funded by the government of Mexico.

314 celticdragon  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:54:12pm

re: #98 albusteve

tough shit eh?...the problem of unfunded mandates to civil unions is country wide

You're a real piece of work.

Disgusting.

315 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:55:10pm

why are people trying to place the burden on the arrested person here? it is the burden of law enforcement to know the law and develop appropriate guidelines for following proper procedure.

316 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:57:46pm

re: #313 BongCrodny

According to what I have been able to find tonight his lawyers were court appointed. If they were then paid by Mexico then they did not do a very good job of seeing to proper representation. The main complaint by Mexico is that he got the death penalty, or so it seems to me.

If they have a problem with the death penalty, then they need to keep their homicidal citizens at home.

317 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:58:37pm

re: #310 Obdicut

nope, if the codes have been modified in the interim, and they have, then it is not so cut-and-dried as you suggest. The rise of offshore tax sheltering, for instance, would cut deeply into any increased revenues realized by restoring pre-Bush rates. Look, I'm not objecting to the need to get more revenue into the treasury, thats a no-brainer, just like we have to spend that revenue more wisely. But "raising tax rates" when the entirety of the financial system has been working overtime to stack the deck in their favor is too simple a solution. If the rates are raised, and just that, progress stops there. Can you not already hear, "But, you raised our rates even farther beyond (whatever country's) rates, what more will you ask from us?"
Demand accountability from the lawmakers.

318 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 8:59:46pm

re: #315 SpaceJesus

If he wanted help from the Mexican government, he should have told the police that he was a Mexican citizen. Which he did not do until much later as I understand it.

319 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:03:10pm

re: #311 SpaceJesus

yes yes, but if the arrestee does not volunteer his status, how can authorities provide access to a consulate? will the defense strategy become to wait until sentencing, then drop the bombshell? does the aresstee have the right to withhold that information until he sees fit?

320 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:03:16pm

re: #318 dell*nix


again, you're expecting the arrested person to know all of their options and rights. in order to follow vienna, the authorities can ask the simple question of, "where are you from?" to every arrestee, if the person says they are from another country or refuses to answer, the authorities can simply say "you have the right to contact your embassy if you are from a foreign nation."

two quick sentences to bring law enforcement into compliance with what vienna asks. it is the duty of law enforcement to have those procedures, not for the defendant to find them.

321 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:06:39pm

re: #319 Gepetto

vienna doesn't require the person to volunteer. im pretty sure they assumed that law enforcement would find out. when you are arrested, the cops will ask you questions about where you are from in order to do a background check, etc.

322 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:07:19pm

I find it really hard to believe that this man was ignorant of the contents of the Vienna Convention. I mean, who doesn't know...?

323 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:10:00pm

if the aressted person lies and says they are american, well then tough shit in my opinion fyi

324 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:11:13pm

re: #320 SpaceJesus

And if you are not allowed to ask where they are from?

And how soon will there be a lawsuit if you require that the police inform you of your Vienna rights?

And if you decline to identify yourself as an illegal alien? That should in some way help you try to overturn a conviction?

325 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:15:53pm

re: #324 dell*nix

the authorities are allowed to ask you where you are from if they ask everybody that question.

in fact, i think the easiest way to bring us into compliance with vienna is for the cops to tack on "also you have the right to contact your consulate if you are a foreign national" to the end of your miranda rights. as soon as the us ratified vienna, we should have sent a memo out to police everywhere with this info.

326 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:15:54pm

re: #321 SpaceJesus

while I agree with the intent of what you're saying, in practice, there is often very little response to any questioning by law enforcement. I think the blanket statement you suggested is a sound practice, but there should be a point at which an uncooperative arrestee/defendant gives up consular rights by not exercising them, and that point should be early in the process, similar to not exercising your right to an attorney, or your right to remain silent.

327 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:20:08pm

re: #326 Gepetto

once the police have notified you of your right to contact your consulate.

you would think that once the us made it law that we need to notify people of their right to their consulate, that we would pass simple procedures to make sure we always did that. simply informing everybody who is arrested of this right would accomplish just that with very little effort. we can't assume every foreigner knows of this right and will try to assert it. we don't even do that with our own countrymen and their rights. we tell them automatically.

328 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:21:12pm

re: #317 Gepetto

nope, if the codes have been modified in the interim, and they have, then it is not so cut-and-dried as you suggest. The rise of offshore tax sheltering, for instance, would cut deeply into any increased revenues realized by restoring pre-Bush rates. Look, I'm not objecting to the need to get more revenue into the treasury, thats a no-brainer, just like we have to spend that revenue more wisely. But "raising tax rates" when the entirety of the financial system has been working overtime to stack the deck in their favor is too simple a solution. If the rates are raised, and just that, progress stops there. Can you not already hear, "But, you raised our rates even farther beyond (whatever country's) rates, what more will you ask from us?"
Demand accountability from the lawmakers.

An argument stating that an action is necessary isn't necessarily an argument that it is sufficient.

329 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:21:58pm

re: #325 SpaceJesus

Congress has had at least two bills that would have required the states to comply with the Vienna rules. They were both defeated. There is no current law to force compliance.

If you are here legally as a resident alien or on a passport for tourism, business or as a government official, then you should know enough to request the help of your embassy.

You must still obey US laws though. As American citizens are required to obey the laws of whatever country they are in.

330 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:27:36pm

re: #317 Gepetto

I have no idea why you want to proceed with this conversation with the assumption I am a goddamn moron, but it makes it pointless to talk to you.

331 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:30:40pm

It was probably drilled into him from a child (since he lived here from the age of two) and throughout his life, never to tell anyone in authority that he was born in Mexico...... despite the gravity of the situation.

332 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:40:18pm

re: #330 Obdicut

I have no idea why you want to proceed with this conversation with the assumption I am a goddamn moron, but it makes it pointless to talk to you.

Yes, it does, you are quite correct.

333 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:50:37pm

re: #329 dell*nix


we signed and ratified the treaty, and treaty law trumps state law already

also, the two bills that were defeated had to do with other parts of the vienna treaty.

334 Gepetto  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:50:53pm

re: #328 Fozzie Bear

An argument stating that an action is necessary isn't necessarily an argument that it is sufficient.

if the action is not sufficient, then it is deficient. Go ahead, raise the rates, if the code is not addressed, the deficiency will persist. I'm not sure why you and Obdicut seem so willing to fall into that trap.

335 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 10:02:32pm

re: #333 SpaceJesus

Try telling that to the states that they have to obey foreign laws that are not in federal or state law. The feds have to codify how treaties are to be followed.

Also, the defendant in this case did not request early notification of the Mexican government and this issue has already been addressed by the state and federal courts.

336 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jul 8, 2011 5:40:11am

re: #74 Amory Blaine

Maybe all jobs could be filled with prison labor.

It worked for the Nazi's. And when you need more labor for the corporations, just arrest more people.

337 kirkspencer  Fri, Jul 8, 2011 6:32:00am

re: #334 Gepetto

if the action is not sufficient, then it is deficient. Go ahead, raise the rates, if the code is not addressed, the deficiency will persist. I'm not sure why you and Obdicut seem so willing to fall into that trap.

If I may interject, I'd like to point out where you're missing the understanding.

It may be the case that multiple actions are necessary for sufficiency to be reached. To use an analogy, gasoline is necessary but is not alone sufficient for the engine's operation. Spark plugs, battery, and several other elements are also required.

338 socrets  Fri, Jul 8, 2011 7:07:05am

And of course, as usual, the Dems and mainstream media won't say jack out of "civilty" and "decor" and "balance".

339 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jul 8, 2011 7:36:22am

re: #177 BongCrodny

I took away this as the point:

Treaties, how quaint.
//

340 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jul 8, 2011 8:00:24am

re: #248 albusteve

they didn't know he was an illegal...it's a bitch eh?...figure it out from the facts rather than you skewed perception of what should have gone down

They couldn't tell by the way he was dressed, or the shoes he wore, or any other tell that AZ will be using? Must not be a very reliable way to do that then.

341 kirkspencer  Fri, Jul 8, 2011 10:43:52am

re: #338 socrets

And of course, as usual, the Dems and mainstream media won't say jack out of "civilty" and "decor" and "balance".

um, what? I mean, I thought I read this thread and that response without quoting or replying to someone made no sense whatsoever to me.

342 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jul 8, 2011 1:17:26pm

"Climate Change is a hoax intended to destroy the US economy".

"What? You want to raise the debt ceiling? I'll see the US economy destroyed before I let you do that".

343 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 8, 2011 1:43:41pm

re: #338 socrets

And of course, as usual, the Dems and mainstream media won't say jack out of "civilty" and "decor" and "balance".

That's the problem with the media. They don't say jack about decor. Just once, i'd like to see a show about how to properly hang drapes, but no, they just keep yammering on about other things.


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