Wall Street Journal Counterattacks, Shoots Own Foot

Good grief
Media • Views: 34,072

The Wall Street Journal’s editorial about owner Rupert Murdoch and former CEO Les Hinton is an excellent example of what’s gone horribly wrong at the paper: Review & Outlook: News and Its Critics.

It’s a very defensive piece, full of strange writing and non sequiturs — but most of all, full of that patented Murdoch attitude. This could be an editorial at foxnews.com.

We also trust that readers can see through the commercial and ideological motives of our competitor-critics. The Schadenfreude is so thick you can’t cut it with a chainsaw. Especially redolent are lectures about journalistic standards from publications that give Julian Assange and WikiLeaks their moral imprimatur. They want their readers to believe, based on no evidence, that the tabloid excesses of one publication somehow tarnish thousands of other News Corp. journalists across the world.

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599 comments
1 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:28:00am
In braying for politicians to take down Mr. Murdoch and News Corp., our media colleagues might also stop to ask about possible precedents. The political mob has been quick to call for a criminal probe into whether News Corp. executives violated the U.S. Foreign Corrupt Practices Act with payments to British security or government officials in return for information used in news stories. Attorney General Eric Holder quickly obliged last week, without so much as a fare-thee-well to the First Amendment.


Bribing police and politicians is not free speech.

2 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:28:09am
They want their readers to believe, based on no evidence, that the tabloid excesses of one publication somehow tarnish thousands of other News Corp. journalists across the world.

All of News Corp is a tabloid excess.

3 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:29:19am

re: #1 Killgore Trout

Bribing police and politicians is not free speech.

///But Citizen's united said that companies could spend as much money as they wanted in elections and what is bribery but a way to spend money to influence an election!

4 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:29:32am

"Shame on you all for expecting better from us!"

5 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:29:34am

re: #1 Killgore Trout

Bribing police and politicians is not free speech.

Why do I fear that decision resting in the hands of the US Supreme Court?
/

6 Iwouldprefernotto  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:29:54am

Schadenfreude is so thick you can’t cut it with a chainsaw.

Cut it with a chainsaw. Really? What high school paper did you work at last year?

7 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:31:14am

re: #6 Iwouldprefernotto

Schadenfreude is so thick you can’t cut it with a chainsaw.

Cut it with a chainsaw. Really? What high school paper did you work at last year?

Home schooled.

8 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:31:51am

I'm trying to figure this passage out, "Especially redolent are lectures about journalistic standards from publications that give Julian Assange and WikiLeaks their moral imprimatur..." But those publications aren't Julian Assange or Wikileaks. They're merely reporting on the two from the outside. What NOTW did puts them on the same side as the Assanges and Wikileaks -- more or less.

9 Iwouldprefernotto  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:32:22am

Do our media brethren really want to invite Congress and prosecutors to regulate how journalists gather the news?

Only when you break the law.

10 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:32:41am

Next 'Opinion' article:

"The Debt Battle Is Good for the GOP"

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

11 Interesting Times  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:33:16am

News Corpse thinks they have "journalists"?

bwahaha

12 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:33:25am

re: #7 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Home schooled.

Nope, sorry, high school standards are way down.

My daughter's high school yearbook has question marks in places where the staff couldn't be bothered to look up information.

In the final draft. The final draft.

13 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:33:28am
Do our media brethren really want to invite Congress and prosecutors to regulate how journalists gather the news, even when we pay for it?

Fixed

14 [deleted]  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:34:44am
15 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:34:54am

re: #12 EmmmieG

shameful.

16 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:35:04am

And here I thought *I* was passive-aggressive.

17 recusancy  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:35:07am

News of the World phone-hacking whistleblower found dead

18 Charleston Chew  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:35:14am

re: #10 Decatur Deb

Next 'Opinion' article:

"The Debt Battle Is Good for the GOP"

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

At first glance I read "Opinion" as "Onion". Probably just my brain clinging desperately to sanity.

19 mr.fusion  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:35:32am

re: #8 Gus 802

But those publications aren't Julian Assange or Wikileaks. They're merely reporting on the two from the outside. What NOTW did puts them on the same side as the Assanges and Wikileaks -- more or less.

And I'm no Wikileaks fan, but there's a difference between exposing government hypocrisy and bribing cops so you can listen to voice mail messages of a murdered teen, or figure out which celebrity is schtooping who

20 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:35:49am

This is a serious case of denial.

21 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:35:53am

re: #10 Decatur Deb

Next 'Opinion' article:

"The Debt Battle Is Good for the GOP"

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

"Congressional tea party Republicans hold a stronger hand than anyone realizes. They speak for a large group of voters who have been swinging back and forth between the parties for more than a decade, determined the last three elections, and are likely to determine the 2012 outcome."

Pull the other one its got strings on.

22 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:36:42am

I'm sorry, but this calls into question their journalistic responsibility.

23 recusancy  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:37:08am

Elizabeth Warren was just asked if she will run for senate in MA. She didn't rule it out.

24 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:37:09am

WSJ argues that there's no evidence that News Corp. employees would spy on people. But there is.

The US operation is headed up by one of the most

25 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:37:33am

"I am not an alcoholic!" -- News Corp

//

26 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:37:33am

re: #19 mr.fusion

And I'm no Wikileaks fan, but there's a difference between exposing government hypocrisy and bribing cops so you can listen to voice mail messages of a murdered teen, or figure out which celebrity is schtooping who

The only issue I have with your statement is that Wikileaks has done a lot worse than exposing government hypocrisy. They have leaked classified material that has put our military members at risk.

27 mr.fusion  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:37:48am

re: #22 EmmmieG

I'm sorry, but this calls into question their journalistic responsibility.

It might as well have been written by the NewsCorp PR team, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it was

28 Lidane  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:37:52am

re: #20 Gus 802

This is a serious case of denial.

That's true for the GOP in general, at least these days. They live in a whole world of denial, it seems.

29 Charleston Chew  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:38:14am

re: #17 recusancy

News of the World phone-hacking whistleblower found dead

"The death is currently being treated as unexplained, but not thought to be suspicious."

Hell of a coincidence.

30 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:38:14am

re: #10 Decatur Deb

Next 'Opinion' article:

"The Debt Battle Is Good for the GOP"

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Yeah, I stopped looking at their op eds long ago. Here's the list of nonsense they're pushing today....

Get Ready for a 70% Marginal Tax Rate
Nantucket's Wind Power Rip-off
Flex-Fuel Follows Several Failed Government Mandates
Sure, Older Folks Use More Care, Often Inefficiently


Crap worthy of Fox Nation.

31 mr.fusion  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:39:08am

re: #26 rwdflynavy

The only issue I have with your statement is that Wikileaks has done a lot worse than exposing government hypocrisy. They have leaked classified material that has put our military members at risk.

Oh I agree.......I can't stand Assange or Wikileaks. I don't think they've ever exposed anything that wasn't already know.....they just gave dangerous details.

Still......morally there's a difference there.

32 kirkspencer  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:39:09am

re: #27 mr.fusion

It might as well have been written by the NewsCorp PR team, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it was

It's the WSJ Opinion page. Of course it's a NewsCorp PR release.

33 laZardo  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:39:15am

Gettin' to bed. Nighty.

34 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:39:15am
"Congressional tea party Republicans hold a stronger hand than anyone realizes. They speak for a large group of voters who have been swinging back and forth between the parties for more than a decade, determined the last three elections, and are likely to determine the 2012 outcome."

Yeah, all those '08 Obama voters in the teabag party sure took to the streets fast enough, some of them as soon as January 21, 2009, to complain about Obama...

//

35 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:39:37am

re: #17 recusancy

News of the World phone-hacking whistleblower found dead

Wow....

"The death is currently being treated as unexplained, but not thought to be suspicious. Police investigations into this incident are ongoing."


Hmmmmm

36 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:39:53am

the tabloid excesses of one publication somehow tarnish thousands of other News Corp. journalists

news corp journalists think people respect them?

37 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:40:02am

When will the Wall Street Journal start putting a set of bare titties on page 3?...their transformation is nearly complete.

38 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:40:44am

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I stopped looking at their op eds long ago. Here's the list of nonsense they're pushing today...


Crap worthy of Fox Nation.

WSJ is a trade publication with delusions of grandeur. It is of the same mold as 'Variety' or my old favorite:

[Link: www.waterjournal.co.uk...]

39 mr.fusion  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:40:45am

re: #23 recusancy

Elizabeth Warren was just asked if she will run for senate in MA. She didn't rule it out.

I just can't imagine her as a politician.....gripping and grinning on the fundraising circuit? I just can't picture it.

40 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:40:55am

re: #24 makeitstop

WSJ argues that there's no evidence that News Corp. employees would spy on people. But there is.

The US operation is headed up by one of the most

Oops. Mangled HTML tag (my bad) eated the remainder of my post. It should have said:

"The US operation is headed up by one of the most psychologically damaged ideologues since William Randolph Hearst.

Why do they deem it so far-fetched that a crazy boss wouldn't demand that his employees operate on his level of craziness?"

Sorry 'bout that.

41 Kronocide  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:41:11am

They want to be considered a news organization of old school integrity but held to the standards of a tabloid. They want it both ways.

Fox News is a tabloid but considers itself a credible news source. When called on this, Fox is quick to point out how other news sources are biased, which is I guess supposed to justify their own bias.

Instead of adhering to a strict set of standards of journalistic integrity, they admittedly adhere to a set of standards created by their journalistic malcontent competitors.

But I don't expect the vast majority of Fox Fanz to think about it that deeply. After all, there's a lot of hacking going on, and a debt crisis because the government won't stop spending money and live within it's means like the rest of us people who balance their budgets.

42 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:41:41am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

He had a drug problem, so not entirely unexpected.

43 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:41:44am

re: #39 mr.fusion

I just can't imagine her as a politician...gripping and grinning on the fundraising circuit? I just can't picture it.

Lacey Davenport (RL Millicent Fenwick) approach.

44 mr.fusion  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:42:12am

re: #41 BigPapa


Fox News is a tabloid but considers itself a credible news source. When called on this, Fox is quick to point out how other news sources are biased, which is I guess supposed to justify their own bias.

That or they talk about their ratings......I guess the ends justify the means

45 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:42:55am

re: #42 Sergey Romanov

He had a drug problem, so not entirely unexpected.

You're probably right but this stuff always looks suspicious.

46 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:43:13am

re: #19 mr.fusion

And I'm no Wikileaks fan, but there's a difference between exposing government hypocrisy and bribing cops so you can listen to voice mail messages of a murdered teen, or figure out which celebrity is schtooping who

It's a strange argument. More or less he's saying "you guys gave a free pass for Assange/Wikileaks therefore you should ignore the hacking scandal and the rest of New Corp." When in fact they didn't give a free pass to Assange/Wikileaks.

47 recusancy  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:43:28am

re: #39 mr.fusion

I just can't imagine her as a politician...gripping and grinning on the fundraising circuit? I just can't picture it.

She's already got a damn strong grassroots following.

48 Charleston Chew  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:43:47am

re: #34 Bulworth

Yeah, all those '08 Obama voters in the teabag party sure took to the streets fast enough, some of them as soon as January 21, 2009, to complain about Obama...

//

Must have been rhetorical connoisseurs disappointed with his inaugural address. Protest signs included: "We thought we were getting Isocrates, but he's, at best, Quintilian!"

49 justaminute  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:43:56am

Maybe we won't have to wait long for other reporters to dig in to News Corp and politicians and police officials. Jim Demint is trying to stop investigations along with Rudy Guilliani. A poster on another blog said that someone should look at the Judith Regans tenure with News Corp. She had an affair with Bernie Kerick, Guilliani's BFF, while employed with News Corp. Her Wiki does lead to some interesting tidbits. It will be fun to see how this plays out and the degree of separation game to politicians and News Corp.

50 Petero1818  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:44:01am

I have long ago grown weary of a press that seems more interested in reporting on what their competitors are doing than discussing the issues of the day. And I must admit, that I feel that way about the blogosphere as well. I have enormous respect for Charles, and I certainly understand the desire or need to defend oneself, but my eyes gloss over when the articles here or posts are dedicated to discrediting other bloggers, or fighting about what they accused each other of. That is not to say Charles is not free to do as he pleases, just that I am more interested in the issues.

51 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:44:28am

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Yeah, though only in an associative way. The scandal breaks and one of whistleblowers is found dead - wow. But if we think about it, killing him wouldn't serve anyone's interests at this point, as far as I can judge.

52 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:44:57am

Scotland Yard Chief resigns over hacking scandal


The fallout of the phone hacking scandal on Monday spread to Scotland Yard forcing its top boss Paul Stephenson and another senior officer John Yates to resign over their links with News International, Rupert Murdoch’s British media group.

They resigned after it emerged that Scotland Yard employed a former deputy editor of the now defunct News of the World Neil Wallis as an adviser even as it was investigating the newspaper for hacking allegations. Mr. Wallis was arrested last week for his alleged involvement in illegally accessing voicemails during his time at NoW.

53 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:45:32am

re: #51 Sergey Romanov

Yeah, though only in an associative way. The scandal breaks and one of whistleblowers is found dead - wow. But if we think about it, killing him wouldn't serve anyone's interests at this point, as far as I can judge.

Ever watch "The Sopranos"?

54 mr.fusion  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:45:54am

re: #52 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Scotland Yard Chief resigns over hacking scandal

Great googily moogily

55 Charleston Chew  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:46:23am

re: #37 darthstar

When will the Wall Street Journal start putting a set of bare titties on page 3?...their transformation is nearly complete.

But they'll remain classy by doing it in that stipple portrait style they're famous for.

56 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:46:27am

re: #53 Decatur Deb

No.

57 recusancy  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:46:35am

re: #46 Gus 802

It's a strange argument. More or less he's saying "you guys gave a free pass for Assange/Wikileaks therefore you should ignore the hacking scandal and the rest of New Corp." When in fact they didn't give a free pass to Assange/Wikileaks.

Any some Fox employed people were calling for the execution of Assange.

58 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:46:41am

re: #54 mr.fusion

Great googily moogily

Nothing to see here. Please everybody just move along.

//

59 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:47:34am

My most brilliant high school teacher was an English teacher. (We had to wear sun glasses in her glass just to keep from being blinded by her magnificence.)

Nowadays? My aunt, a high school principal, gets resumes with spelling errors. She said she would overlook it if it were for a science position, but it's for the English teacher positions.

A home school dad I know had a foreign exchange student who obviously was enrolled in the local high school. She brought home an assignment form from her English class which required an adult signature. He signed it, but only after correcting the spelling and grammar mistakes (the school's mistakes, not hers) with a red pen. The poor girl was embarrassed to take it back like that.

60 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:47:46am

re: #56 Sergey Romanov

No.

Tony Soprano is a business mogul with a strong sense of boardroom discipline.

61 Kronocide  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:48:12am

re: #50 Petero1818

I have long ago grown weary of a press that seems more interested in reporting on what their competitors are doing than discussing the issues of the day. And I must admit, that I feel that way about the blogosphere as well. I have enormous respect for Charles, and I certainly understand the desire or need to defend oneself, but my eyes gloss over when the articles here or posts are dedicated to discrediting other bloggers, or fighting about what they accused each other of. That is not to say Charles is not free to do as he pleases, just that I am more interested in the issues.

You don't think lies and distortions salaciously ladled with racism or xenophobia are issues worthy of discussion?

62 recusancy  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:48:15am

re: #57 recusancy

Any And some Fox employed people were calling for the execution of Assange.

63 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:49:27am

re: #57 recusancy

Any some Fox employed people were calling for the execution of Assange.

Honestly, I think you might have seen that here at LGF too. Perhaps I'm overstating it and it wasn't quite execution, but it was pretty severe.
A Canadian politician half-seriously called for his execution too.

64 William of Orange  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:49:47am

BREAKING NEWS!!

Sean Hoare, the whistleblower who let the world know that Any Coulson knoew about the wiretapping was found dead in his house in Watford. According to the police the cause of death is still unknown but they rule out a crime.

Anyone remember the weapons of mass destruction??

65 justaminute  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:49:47am

Someone reminded me that there is a problem with just reporting on the phone hacking:

"Constantly referring to this as a "hacking scandal" the wider issue is being missed, namely that there was large scale bribery of the police force going on.

Notice that Rebecca Brooks was arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to intercept communications and corruption. That is to say, it is alleged that she knew about or was otherwise indirectly involved in the hacking part, but was directly involved in the bribery part."

66 William of Orange  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:50:14am

re: #64 William of Orange

BREAKING NEWS!!

Sean Hoare, the whistleblower who let the world know that Any Coulson knoew about the wiretapping was found dead in his house in Watford. According to the police the cause of death is still unknown but they rule out a crime.

Anyone remember the weapons of mass destruction??

That's Andy coulson. Sorry.

67 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:51:59am

I look into my crystal ball and I foresee...a Devil Wears Prada type of book coming about about Rebekah Brooks.

Should be interesting. Nicole Kidman in the movie.

68 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:52:10am

re: #64 William of Orange

LOL.

69 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:52:16am

re: #66 William of Orange

That's Andy coulson. Sorry.

Image: AndyCoulson460.jpg

70 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:53:21am

Putin's Army deploying hot Russian Strippers

71 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:53:41am

re: #59 EmmmieG

My most brilliant high school teacher was an English teacher. (We had to wear sun glasses in her glass just to keep from being blinded by her magnificence.)

Nowadays? My aunt, a high school principal, gets resumes with spelling errors. She said she would overlook it if it were for a science position, but it's for the English teacher positions.

A home school dad I know had a foreign exchange student who obviously was enrolled in the local high school. She brought home an assignment form from her English class which required an adult signature. He signed it, but only after correcting the spelling and grammar mistakes (the school's mistakes, not hers) with a red pen. The poor girl was embarrassed to take it back like that.

I will never forget an English teacher I had in 8th grade who taught us the difference between ITS and IT'S by reading out loud every student paper and saying IT IS for IT'S.

72 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:54:16am

Image: Sean-Hoare-008.jpg

That's the whistle blower who was found dead.

73 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:55:05am

re: #71 Alouette

I will never forget an English teacher I had in 8th grade who taught us the difference between ITS and IT'S by reading out loud every student paper and saying IT IS for IT'S.

My daughter brought home an English assignment page with the wrong its/it's. She's the one who caught it.

74 Kronocide  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:58:21am

CA State Fair artist entry, could go viral:

Sarah Palin art contest entry

75 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:58:45am

Disturbing footage warning: [2nd Angle] San Francisco Police (SFPD) killing a man over bus fare.

Youtube Video

SFPD Shoot, Kill Alleged Armed Man In Bayview

SAN FRANCISCO -- San Francisco police shot a man in San Francisco's Bayview District early Saturday evening. The man died later that evening from his injuries.
The incident occurred around 4:45 p.m. on Third Street and Oakdale Avenue when a 19-year-old man, who was believed to have been carrying a gun, was shot and collapsed on the sidewalk, police said.
A police spokesman said the shooting began after two uniformed officers conducted a fare inspection on a Muni light rail vehicle.
They detained the man on the platform, but he fled on foot.
During the foot pursuit, police said the suspect fired at the officers, and the officers fired back.
Witnesses had a different story and said police overreacted.

76 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:01:21am

re: #50 Petero1818

I have long ago grown weary of a press that seems more interested in reporting on what their competitors are doing than discussing the issues of the day. And I must admit, that I feel that way about the blogosphere as well. I have enormous respect for Charles, and I certainly understand the desire or need to defend oneself, but my eyes gloss over when the articles here or posts are dedicated to discrediting other bloggers, or fighting about what they accused each other of. That is not to say Charles is not free to do as he pleases, just that I am more interested in the issues.

To the extent that other (read: any) bloggers have a significant audience, and ostensibly a degree of influence over that audience, it bears at least mentioning when one of those bloggers presents its audience with a version of reality that is flatly contradicted by facts. Some bloggers are consistently so out of sync with reality as to border on science fiction. Whether it's for the purpose of setting the record straight (think "Rathergate"), or merely for the lulz (the shrieking harpy), I typically enjoy seeing other blogs and journalists called out on their nonsense.

77 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:02:29am

re: #75 Alexzander

Disturbing footage warning: [2nd Angle] San Francisco Police (SFPD) killing a man over bus fare.

[Video]

Pardon my language, but that is seriously fucked up.

78 William of Orange  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:04:38am

You get a kick out of reading the comments on that page! What a joy to read! Examples:

You take hypocrisy and cynicism to new heights. Your legitimacy is forfeit. And so is my subscription.

Warren Deschenaux
Annapolis, Maryland

So we've seen 3 or 4 posts here within the hour all conservatives pointing the finger GEORGE SOROS!

Let me guess...

Limbaugh's radio show just ended and now they are flooding websites around the world with King Rushbo's talking points.

These people are literally mentally ill.


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I am 54 years old and have been reading the Wall Street Journal since high school. I have never been more disappointed in you than I am today, after reading this article. I always considered myself middle of the road politically but I can see why so many from the left are lambasting News Corp and the WSJ. You have lost your way and hopefully, one day soon, you will be under new ownership and get back to being the respected institution you used to be.

very disappointing editorial. The NY Times took a lumping (and deservingly so) when they had problems and News Corp. deserves what it is getting now. Trying to spin it into some partisan witch-hunt is ridiculous and I say that as a conservative.

We needs to get to the real heart of the matter here; which is ending the cozy relationship between press and politicians. The corruption transcends ideology or party.

Goosebumps!!

79 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:07:40am

re: #75 Alexzander

Disturbing footage warning: [2nd Angle] San Francisco Police (SFPD) killing a man over bus fare.

[Video]

That is extremely disturbing. Even if the guy did have a gun and shot at police officers, they just let him lie there and bleed out on the sidewalk.

80 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:07:48am

Holy FUCKING SHIT! The NewsCorp whistleblower has been found dead.

Good work, Rupert.

81 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:08:18am

re: #75 Alexzander

Disturbing footage warning: [2nd Angle] San Francisco Police (SFPD) killing a man over bus fare.

[Video]

Parolee, 19, is IDd as man shot by S.F. police

The man shot and killed by San Francisco police after he allegedly fired at them during a foot chase in Bayview-Hunters Point was identified today as 19-year-old Kenneth Harding, a Washington state parolee sought for questioning in the slaying last week of a woman in Seattle.

Harding, who was killed Saturday afternoon, had recently been released from a prison in Washington after serving time for convictions stemming from a King County sex offense, said San Francisco Police Chief Greg Suhr.

Seattle police were seeking Harding as a person of interest in a shooting Wednesday that killed Tanaya Gilbert, 19, and wounded three others, authorities said.

A day after the shooting, someone opened fire at a vigil for Gilbert in Seattle. No one was hurt.

Continues.

82 BongCrodny  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:08:29am

If that op-ed had been about race, the WSJ would have went straight for the Robert Byrd reference. Massive butt-they-do-it-too-hurt.

83 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:08:52am

Funny -- the title of this page is "Shoots Own Foot" -- Google Adsense starts serving up ads for foot doctors.

84 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:09:02am

re: #80 darthstar

What does him being dead have to do with Rupert?

85 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:09:54am

On a lighter note (B above middle C, for example), this is without question the best photograph I've seen all day.

[Link: twitpic.com...]

86 jaunte  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:10:08am

re: #83 Charles

Google must still be working on the metaphor database.

87 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:10:21am

re: #83 Charles

Funny -- the title of this page is "Shoots Own Foot" -- Google Adsense starts serving up ads for foot doctors.

The stuff I miss by having a subscription.

88 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:10:32am

re: #83 Charles

Funny -- the title of this page is "Shoots Own Foot" -- Google Adsense starts serving up ads for foot doctors.

Clearly there are a few large insteps left before we reach true AI....

89 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:10:49am

re: #83 Charles

Funny -- the title of this page is "Shoots Own Foot" -- Google Adsense starts serving up ads for foot doctors.

Let's not do a music thread on The Stones.

91 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:11:10am

re: #84 Sergey Romanov

What does him being dead have to do with Rupert?


Just trying to get my Fox News on...but we're talking about someone who hurt Rupert, not Soros, so chances are it was natural causes - loss of oxygen to the brain, exploding heart valve, excessive Catholic guilt...nothing to see here...move along.

(my money's on Murdoch, though)

92 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:11:19am

re: #85 negativ

On a lighter note (B above middle C, for example), this is without question the best photograph I've seen all day.

[Link: twitpic.com...]

he admired Dylan so much, he even wore his hair like Bob....factoid

93 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:11:29am

Bachmann 2006: "We are in the last days."

94 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:12:37am

re: #93 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Bachmann 2006: "We are in the last days."

We've been in the last days for years now...it's starting to get old.

95 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:13:50am

re: #90 Gus 802

SFPD: Gun Recovered Hours After Police Shooting

So he fired at the officers, who fired back and hit him. Then, while he was laying bleeding on the sidewalk, he said "HEY, LOOK OVER THERE, IS THAT ANGELINA JOLIE?!?" and while everyone was distracted, he got up, ditched his gun several blocks away, and then deftly sneaked back to his bleedin' spot, leaving everyone none the wiser.

Brilliant.

96 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:14:49am

re: #94 darthstar

We've been in the last days for years now...it's starting to get old.

Its like that one furniture store which has been having its "Everything must go! Final Clearance sale!" for the last decade.

97 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:15:04am

“Bury your mistakes,” Rupert Murdoch is fond of saying.

I'm guessing he'll be looking for a new catch phrase in the near future.

98 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:16:34am

re: #95 negativ

So he fired at the officers, who fired back and hit him. Then, while he was laying bleeding on the sidewalk, he said "HEY, LOOK OVER THERE, IS THAT ANGELINA JOLIE?!?" and while everyone was distracted, he got up, ditched his gun several blocks away, and then deftly sneaked back to his bleedin' spot, leaving everyone none the wiser.

Brilliant.

I didn't watch the video. Can't yet because of my usage running out today. That being said I have enough information to make my own judgment on this matter. Sure, the police fuck up from time to time and some of them turn out to be criminals themselves. However, I much rather put my trust in the police, including the SFPD, then the hard core criminals out there. It's easy for people to second guess what these police officers have to go through from the comfort of our homes. I will not ever put myself in the position of having a fear of the police.

99 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:16:41am

re: #96 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its like that one furniture store which has been having its "Everything must go! Final Clearance sale!" for the last decade.

A few years back, Sacramento clamped down on the perpetual grand opening/going out of business rug shops. Forced a lot of them to buy new giant banners that read "Store Liquidation!"

100 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:16:45am

Jan Mohammad Khan, senior adviser to Afghan president Hamid Karzai, murdered in Kabul
Jan Mohammad Khan, a senior adviser to Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, was murdered on Sunday night at his home near the parliament in Kabul.

getting pretty close to Karzai....there must be some sort of monster security problem, high value targets getting picked off

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

101 BongCrodny  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:16:59am

re: #94 darthstar

We've been in the last days for years now...it's starting to get old.


I keep getting a picture of Bullwinkle with the rabbit-out-of-the-hat yelling "THIS TIME FOR SURE!"

102 BishopX  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:17:15am

re: #95 negativ

From tfa a bystander picked the gun up and ran off with it....

103 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:17:24am

re: #100 albusteve

They're getting warmer!

104 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:17:50am

re: #96 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its like that one furniture store which has been having its "Everything must go! Final Clearance sale!" for the last decade.

Or the For-Real-We-Mean-It-This-Time Farewell Tour that Aerosmith, the Rolling Stones, the Eagles, and Kiss undertake approximately every 15 months.

105 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:19:16am

re: #104 negativ

Or the For-Real-We-Mean-It-This-Time Farewell Tour that Aerosmith, the Rolling Stones, the Eagles, and Kiss undertake approximately every 15 months.

the Stones have never done a 'farewell' tour...I don't know about the rest

106 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:21:22am

O'Keefe is back...this time he's going after Medicaid posing as a Russian drug smuggler looking for abortions for his little sister whom he's been pimping on the side (seriously...it's about as pathetic as that)

107 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:21:59am

re: #83 Charles

Funny -- the title of this page is "Shoots Own Foot" -- Google Adsense starts serving up ads for foot doctors.

Good thing you decided not to cover this Fox News outrageous outrage....
NIH-Backed Study Examined Effects of Penis Size in Gay Community

108 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:22:01am

More on the dead perp.

Pimp shot to death linked to Tanaya Gilbert slaying

A 19-year-old convicted pimp considered a person of interest in the South Seattle slaying of a pregnant teen was shot to death Saturday afternoon in San Francisco.

Killed by police after allegedly firing on officers, Seattle resident Kenneth Harding was described by police in Seattle and San Francisco as a person of interest in the death of Tanaya Gilbert.

Gilbert, 19, was shot to death in a car in South Seattle during a shooting that saw three others wounded. Police have been searching for her killer since; relatives previously said she may have been targeted for speaking out about an earlier shooting, or simply shot at random following a chance encounter.

[...]

Shot by San Francisco officers after attempting to sneak onto the city subway, Harding had recently been convicted of pimping a 13-year-old girl in near Seattle Center.

Continues

Harding had recently been convicted of pimping a 13-year-old girl in near Seattle Center.

109 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:22:31am

Darwin wins out again.

110 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:24:38am

re: #108 Gus 802

No sadness here...glad the fucker's dead...technically innocent as he wasn't tried, but still dead.

111 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:25:35am

re: #110 darthstar

No sadness here...glad the fucker's dead...technically innocent as he wasn't tried, but still dead.

He pled "guilty" to terminal stupidity when he opened fire on cops.

112 kirkspencer  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:25:38am

re: #98 Gus 802

I didn't watch the video. Can't yet because of my usage running out today. That being said I have enough information to make my own judgment on this matter. Sure, the police fuck up from time to time and some of them turn out to be criminals themselves. However, I much rather put my trust in the police, including the SFPD, then the hard core criminals out there. It's easy for people to second guess what these police officers have to go through from the comfort of our homes. I will not ever put myself in the position of having a fear of the police.

Did I read you correctly? You haven't seen the existing evidence but you're ready to judge?

Look, I've worked with police. I agree that 80%, probably 90%, and as much as 95% of the officers are above board. That 5 to 10%, though, is a LOT of officers and a LOT of incidents.

The really bad time is when one officer makes a mistake (or acts maliciously) and the other normally clean offficers cover. It happens. It's the basis of the "thin blue line" theme. It's caused by a perception of the officers that they're outnumbered and under attack on all fronts, so they must show a united front or be defeated in detail. The result is a combination of self-fulfilling prophecy and vicious circle that ends with both a lack of trust by the public and an eventual very ugly break when the flaws cannot be hidden.

I am glad for your sake you have never witnessed or experienced an officer violating your trust. I have, more than once. And trust lost is almost impossible to recover.

113 allegro  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:25:54am

re: #108 Gus 802

That is some "accomplished" kid for age 19. Not exactly a rosy future had he survived.

114 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:26:03am

re: #110 darthstar

True, true. The police should be investigated in any case, of course.

115 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:27:02am

re: #111 wlewisiii

He pled "guilty" to terminal stupidity when he opened fire on cops.

And they cured him.

116 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:27:36am

re: #105 albusteve

Except for the one in 2010

And then the other one in 2012.

Side note: if I ever have to have a liver transplant, I want either Kieth Richards', or Ozzy Osbourne's. Because obviously those were built to last.

117 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:27:42am

Wall Street Journal Counterattacks

Every rat squeaks when it's trapped.

118 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:28:42am

Okay...plane's starting its descent...time to log out for a while. Play nice, everyone.

119 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:30:41am

Has anyone flown Lufthansa planes recently? Do they have wifi?

120 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:32:16am

re: #119 Sergey Romanov

Has anyone flown Lufthansa planes recently? Do they have wifi?

I think it depends on the route.

121 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:32:41am

dog takes on sharks...and wins!
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

122 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:33:16am

re: #120 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I googled a bit and apparently not on relatively short flights.

123 allegro  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:34:39am

I just ate some cinnamon applesauce with the label saying it is "99.9% fruit & cinnamon" and the ingredients listed are only apples and cinnamon. Now I'm obsessed with wondering what that .1% is. Did I just eat bug guts or something?

124 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:35:10am

re: #108 Gus 802

Someone with improperly calibrated tinfoil who perceives the SFPD as a slightly more malignant entity might be given to wonder if perhaps some post-hoc character assassination might be taking place.

125 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:36:37am

re: #124 negativ

Someone with improperly calibrated tinfoil who perceives the SFPD as a slightly more malignant entity might be given to wonder if perhaps some post-hoc character assassination might be taking place.

Well. If you pull out a .45 at the police your going to get shot and killed by the police. No tears from me.

126 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:36:44am

re: #123 allegro

I just ate some cinnamon applesauce with the label saying it is "99.9% fruit & cinnamon" and the ingredients listed are only apples and cinnamon. Now I'm obsessed with wondering what that .1% is. Did I just eat bug guts or something?

Probably. FDA regs allow for a certain small but measurable amount of insect parts and rodent feces. True story.

127 Ericus58  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:36:46am

re: #119 Sergey Romanov

Has anyone flown Lufthansa planes recently? Do they have wifi?

" * Fast and powerful online access above the clouds gives you Internet access on your WLAN-enabled laptop or smartphone in all travel classes.
* Thanks to the high transmission speed you can send and receive e-mails without delay, even with big file attachments or log into your company’s Virtual Private Network (VPN).
* During the course of this year, FlyNet® will also enable you to transfer data by GSM and GPRS technology. So in future, once cruising altitude is reached, you will be able to use your mobile phone to, for example, send and receive SMS and MMS messages or synchronise data via your smartphone."

128 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:37:27am

re: #121 albusteve

That's a sweet video.

129 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:38:35am

OK. I just watched the video here. This proves nothing. Also found this at the link:

Harding, then 18, was initially charged with second degree rape of a child as well as attempted promoting prostitution, following allegations that he had sex with the 13-year-old whom he delivered to the Seattle Center area on Jan. 7, 2010.

130 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:39:53am

re: #116 negativ

Except for the one in 2010

And then the other one in 2012.

Side note: if I ever have to have a liver transplant, I want either Kieth Richards', or Ozzy Osbourne's. Because obviously those were built to last.

like I said...

131 allegro  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:42:21am

re: #126 negativ

Probably. FDA regs allow for a certain small but measurable amount of insect parts and rodent feces. True story.

Gack! That will teach me to not ask a question that I do NOT want the answer to.

132 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:43:15am

re: #131 allegro

Gack! That will teach me to not ask a question that I do NOT want the answer to.

Now search for "mechanically separated chicken".

133 allegro  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:43:52am

re: #132 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Now search for "mechanically separated chicken".

No!

134 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:44:28am

re: #133 allegro

OK, I will in your stead.

135 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:45:19am

Mmm, paste-like meat product.

136 allegro  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:45:34am

re: #134 Sergey Romanov

OK, I will in your stead.

Oh dear. Methinks I should take this fine opportunity to get back to work.

137 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:49:02am

re: #136 allegro

Oh dear. Methinks I should take this fine opportunity to get back to work.

And a new term for me; Meat Slurry


Processing dark meat into a slurry makes it more like white meat, easier to prepare and more attractive.

The meat is first finely ground and mixed with water. The mixture is then used in a centrifuge or with an emulsifier to separate the fats and myoglobin from the muscle. The product is then allowed to settle into three layers: meat, excess water, and fat.

The remaining liquefied meat is then flash-frozen and packaged.

138 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:50:43am

re: #133 allegro

No!

Youtube Video
139 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:50:55am

re: #136 allegro

Not that bad. At first I saw a Young Turks clip about this, and they say like, oh eyes were used etc.

But at [Link: www.snopes.com...]

Contrary to what is claimed above, the process does not involve the grinding up of entire animal carcasses ("bones, eyes, guts, and all") into one large, amorphous glob of meat; it is a technique for removing what is left on the bones of a carcass after all other processing has been completed.

140 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:53:28am

Fox news host: Mormon Romney obviously not Christians

During a conversation about the Republican presidential field if Texas Gov. Rick Perry were to get into the race, “Fox & Friends” host Ainsley Earhardt speculated that Perry would have a much better chance of raising funds and rallying the social conservative base since Perry is Christian and rather open about his faith. During an exchange with co-host Dave Briggs, Earhardt said :

“Well the Christian coalition … I think [Rick Perry] can get a lot of money from that base because [of] Romney obviously not being a Christian … Rick Perry, he’s always on talk shows, on Christian talk shows, he has days of prayer in Texas,” she said.

141 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:55:09am

Anyway, one way or another I don't have an axe to grind over this.

142 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:56:38am

re: #141 Gus 802

Anyway, one way or another I don't have an axe to grind over this.

well, that's for others to decide...new rule

143 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:57:18am

re: #142 albusteve

well, that's for others to decide...new rule

I do have a machete to grind. It's right here.

//

144 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:58:41am

re: #143 Gus 802

I do have a machete to grind. It's right here.

//

I grind molars

145 William of Orange  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:58:42am

Mentioned before in post no#64. But here is a Gawker article.

The News Corp. Scandal Now Has a Body Count: Whistleblower Found Dead.

And this gem:
Parsing the Wall Street Journal’s Catastrophic News Corp Defense


Oh, joy of joys!!! Fantastic stuff.

146 allegro  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 11:59:08am

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fox news host: Mormon Romney obviously not Christians

Getting more money...yup, that's what Perry's about. Faith gots nuttin to do with it.

147 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:00:07pm

re: #144 albusteve

I grind molars

In your sleep?

148 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:01:08pm

Ethics and such aside, the writing in that WSJ article is extremely poor quality. I would have gotten a C in high school on an essay of that quality, if the professor were feeling generous.

149 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:01:32pm

re: #147 Gus 802

In your sleep?


I was kidding...I don't use sleep

150 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:03:53pm

re: #146 allegro

Getting more money...yup, that's what Perry's about. Faith gots nuttin to do with it.

I love sectarian schisms.

151 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:04:43pm

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fox news host: Mormon Romney obviously not Christians

I'd really like to see what goes on behind-the-scenes at Fox & Friends, because it truly seems like they go out of their way to be as brain-scramblingly absurd as possible. Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I want to know: are they genuinely that stupid, or are they doing it on purpose?

< Han_Solo >
I mean, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of stupid stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Derp controlling everything.
< /Han_Solo >

152 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:04:55pm

re: #145 William of Orange

Wow, Murdoch is literally killing people now

153 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:10:49pm

I've got to wonder, do all denominations put the others down? Do Baptists say Pentecostals aren't Christians? Do Methodists call Anglicans heathens? Do Catholics call Presbyterians pagans?

I mean, how can we tell who the real Christians are?

154 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:13:43pm

re: #153 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I've got to wonder, do all denominations put the others down? Do Baptists say Pentecostals aren't Christians? Do Methodists call Anglicans heathens? Do Catholics call Presbyterians pagans?

I mean, how can we tell who the real Christians are?

When I was in junior high, I found out my friend's Christian church thought we Catholics weren't Christians. I thought that was a raw deal until I found out the Catholics thought nobody from her church was going to heaven. That was the beginning of the end for me.

155 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:13:57pm

re: #152 SpaceJesus

Wow, Murdoch is literally killing people now

every day brings new wonders

I'm half expecting to wake up tomorrow and find he's been arrested :D

156 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:13:58pm

re: #153 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I've got to wonder, do all denominations put the others down? Do Baptists say Pentecostals aren't Christians? Do Methodists call Anglicans heathens? Do Catholics call Presbyterians pagans?
I mean, how can we tell who the real Christians are?

All the real Christians are in jail. Because that's where God is found most of the time.

157 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:15:26pm

Interesting.


[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

158 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:17:02pm

"Excesses". It's a great word altogether, it covers everything from partying too much to fraud to genocide.

159 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:17:11pm

re: #145 William of Orange

Mentioned before in post no#64. But here is a Gawker article.

The News Corp. Scandal Now Has a Body Count: Whistleblower Found Dead.

Hmmm, accidental overdose huh, how very Michael Clayton.

160 BongCrodny  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:17:37pm

re: #153 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I've got to wonder, do all denominations put the others down? Do Baptists say Pentecostals aren't Christians? Do Methodists call Anglicans heathens? Do Catholics call Presbyterians pagans?


Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Muslims,
And everybody hates the Jews.

-- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week

161 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:18:52pm

re: #155 WindUpBird

I'm half expecting to find out tomorrow that Hugh Grant has been found dead in an East London ditch with a News Corp pen stuck in his throat.

162 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:19:51pm

re: #17 recusancy

News of the World phone-hacking whistleblower found dead

Well, that may not be 'treated as suspicious', but my eyebrow does go up.

163 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:21:35pm

re: #161 SpaceJesus

I'm half expecting to find out tomorrow that Hugh Grant has been found dead in an East London ditch with a News Corp pen stuck in his throat.

it's funny because it's Hugh Grant

164 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:22:53pm

re: #73 EmmmieG

My daughter brought home an English assignment page with the wrong its/it's. She's the one who caught it.

All my kids get extra points for finding typos.

And they do. They do.

165 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:23:12pm

re: #163 WindUpBird

it's funny because it's Hugh Grant

Hugh Laurie could be the substitute.

//

166 allegro  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:24:22pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that may not be 'treated as suspicious', but my eyebrow does go up.

When someone has a known drug problem it does make it terribly easy for anyone who would prefer they no longer have a living presence. An "overdose" is so easily explained away and accepted.

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:24:39pm

re: #75 Alexzander

Disturbing footage warning: [2nd Angle] San Francisco Police (SFPD) killing a man over bus fare.

[Video]

They think now that he may have opened fire because he was wanted for questioning in a shooting in Seattle.

[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

We have been having a hell of a couple of years around here with police shootings and public transit.

168 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:25:33pm

re: #161 SpaceJesus

I'm half expecting to find out tomorrow that Hugh Grant has been found dead in an East London ditch with a News Corp pen stuck in his throat.

Rowan Atkinson to investigate. "We've got a cunning plan" claims top aide.

169 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:26:02pm

re: #153 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I've got to wonder, do all denominations put the others down?

Yes.

Way down deep, 99% of people who claim to be religious don't really -- really -- believe what they say they believe. When most people talk about "faith", what they are describing is the feeling that arises from viscerally understanding that a particular idea has no basis in reality, but sincerely wanting at least some of it to be true nonetheless.

People follow a "denomination" because they're born into it. Exceptions to this are extremely rare. Denominations persist not because they are necessarily true, but because they turn out to be useful.

Competing denominations (especially in cases where they are distinctly incompatible) represent an existential threat. Memes, like genes, don't need to be true, or beneficial to the mind that hosts them, or benevolent to the social structure in which the host lives. They only need to survive long enough to reproduce.

So yes, a competing denomination will by necessity always be seen as an enemy to be defeated.

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:26:10pm

re: #95 negativ

So he fired at the officers, who fired back and hit him. Then, while he was laying bleeding on the sidewalk, he said "HEY, LOOK OVER THERE, IS THAT ANGELINA JOLIE?!?" and while everyone was distracted, he got up, ditched his gun several blocks away, and then deftly sneaked back to his bleedin' spot, leaving everyone none the wiser.

Brilliant.

No. They have cell phone footage of a witness taking the gun.

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:27:35pm

re: #114 Sergey Romanov

True, true. The police should be investigated in any case, of course.

They will be. There's going to be a lot of pressure over this one, given that there was another shooting by BART police a few weeks ago.

172 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:29:01pm

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

It's just good policy. I absolutely get what Gus is saying, but there should be checks and balances when it comes to the power of the police.

173 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:30:26pm

OT, Mercury astronaut and former US Senator John Glenn is 90 years old today.

174 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:30:33pm

re: #172 Sergey Romanov

It's just good policy. I absolutely get what Gus is saying, but there should be checks and balances when it comes to the power of the police.

Fairly sure that the majority of jurisdictions, especially large cities, have an investigation any time there is an officer involved shooting.

175 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:30:40pm

re: #160 BongCrodny

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Muslims,
And everybody hates the Jews.

-- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week

Via Jerry Falwell comes THE MONKEY SONG, which is a delightfully ignorant diatribe against teaching evolution in school, and THE ECUMENICAL MOVEMENT, which is a diatribe against the very idea of religious tolerance in any form. Sung by children, of course.

Youtube Video
176 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:30:57pm

re: #172 Sergey Romanov

It's just good policy. I absolutely get what Gus is saying, but there should be checks and balances when it comes to the power of the police.

For the record. I can live with the coming investigations too.

177 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:35:44pm

re: #172 Sergey Romanov

It's just good policy. I absolutely get what Gus is saying, but there should be checks and balances when it comes to the power of the police.

Absolutely, and any shooting needs to be investigated down to the floor.

This is going to show a lot about what Greg Suhr is made of. He's only been chief since April.

178 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:35:47pm

NFL lockout dangerously close to being resolved....took four months to divvy up $9b

179 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:36:57pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that may not be 'treated as suspicious', but my eyebrow does go up.

Sooo... 24hr rule, 48hr rule, or panic all at once? ;)

180 BongCrodny  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:37:20pm

re: #175 negativ

Via Jerry Falwell comes THE MONKEY SONG, which is a delightfully ignorant diatribe against teaching evolution in school, and THE ECUMENICAL MOVEMENT, which is a diatribe against the very idea of religious tolerance in any form. Sung by children, of course.

[Video]


I wish there was a way we could upding the reference but downding the *content*.

That really is Crystal Bernard from Wings, isn't it? Ouch. Victoria Jackson II.

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:37:27pm

re: #179 Slumbering Behemoth

Sooo... 24hr rule, 48hr rule, or panic all at once? ;)

None of the above. I'm just going to tuck it away in my mind and wonder.

182 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:37:36pm

Found on Yahoo:

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

183 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:39:25pm
I've got to wonder, do all denominations put the others down?

In my experience, yes.

184 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:39:51pm

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

None of the above. I'm just going to tuck it away in my mind and wonder.

No, I was hoping you'd tell me what to do.

/just pulling yer leg

185 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:43:26pm

September 11 families seek meeting with FBI on hacking

Relatives of victims of the September 11 attacks have asked to meet the FBI and the U.S. Justice Department to discuss the agencies' preliminary inquiry into reports that News Corp reporters may have tried to hack the phones of 9/11 victims.

186 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:44:26pm

re: #179 Slumbering Behemoth

Sooo... 24hr rule, 48hr rule, or panic all at once? ;)

When all else fails try hysteria.

187 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:49:11pm

All quiet on the western front.

The day the news stood still.

//

188 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:49:50pm

re: #151 negativ

In this case, where there's smoke, there's fire.

There are some serious differences between Mormon doctrine and mainstream Protestant (and Catholic) Christianity -- e.g. multiple gods, "God was once a man like us," God the father has a physical body, Jesus was begotten as humans are (no virgin birth), and a whole lot more.

Which is why all the other Christians have so much trouble with Romney's faith.

189 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:50:01pm

Gilroy, California has come under attack by Imperial Japanese forces.

//

190 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:50:49pm

re: #186 Gus 802

When all else fails try hysteria.

Yeah, but I really suck at that. I'm too laid back. Perhaps I can muster some Hysteria LiteTM.

:sigh: Nope. Not working.

191 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:50:49pm

re: #188 C1nnabar

and don't forget the magick underwear :)

//

192 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:52:23pm

re: #189 Gus 802

Gilroy, California has come under attack by Imperial Japanese forces.

//

They'll get my garlic when they pry it from my cold, dead mouth!

193 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:52:43pm

an old favorite on mormonism

Youtube Video
194 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:54:14pm

Speaking of Mormons. Here's another famous Mormon.

195 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:55:55pm

Well, it seems the Pagans are at it again.

Youtube Video

Say, who was the last politician to run on the Pagan ticket?

196 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:55:59pm

re: #193 SpaceJesus

Doesn't beat SP version of OTIII.

197 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:56:14pm

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

No. They have cell phone footage of a witness taking the gun.

It may be 150% legit. But if you've lived in SF long enough, you may be able to remember active duty SFPD cops wearing their "Free Dan White" t-shirts and (bizarrely) playing the Notre Dame fight song over their radios when he was acquitted.

I admit that I'm extremely biased in this area. I haven't had any "run-ins" with the police, but I do believe police should be scrutinized far more closely than they are, and I am nearly always quite offended by the degree of deference afforded to the police by the public.

Never mind.

198 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:56:18pm

re: #188 C1nnabar

In this case, where there's smoke, there's fire.

There are some serious differences between Mormon doctrine and mainstream Protestant (and Catholic) Christianity -- e.g. multiple gods, "God was once a man like us," God the father has a physical body, Jesus was begotten as humans are (no virgin birth), and a whole lot more.

Which is why all the other Christians have so much trouble with Romney's faith.

It's stuff like this that makes me reject them all. Show me any "Christian faith" that doesn't require belief in things that other "Christian" people don't believe in. Your statement puts the Mormons on the outside, and "all others" on the inside. Catholics put everybody but themselves on the outside. The Bachmann's old church puts anyone who doesn't believe the Pope is the Antichrist on the outside.

You're all on the outside, IMHO.

199 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:58:15pm

re: #196 Sergey Romanov

Yeah huh, this one clearly shows Jesus living in outer space.

200 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:58:21pm

re: #195 Slumbering Behemoth

Well, it seems the Pagans are at it again.

[Video]Say, who was the last politician to run on the Pagan ticket?

Christine O'Donnell?

//

201 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 12:59:35pm

"I am not a witch."

202 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:01:32pm

re: #198 wrenchwench


You're all on the outside, IMHO.

It's the system, man! Let's put the whole system on trial!

203 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:01:37pm

re: #156 Cannadian Club Akbar

All the real Christians are in jail. Because that's where God is found most of the time.

Helped make bail for the most Christian preacher I've known.

204 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:03:37pm

re: #202 Obdicut

It's the system, man! Let's put the whole system on trial!

I'm just another nut, aren't I.

205 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:13:43pm

By the way, the GOP may have tainted a few ethics probes.

Is tainting an ethics probe an ethics problem?

206 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:15:45pm

re: #205 Obdicut

By the way, the GOP may have tainted a few ethics probes.

Is tainting an ethics probe an ethics problem?

Fewer things more painful than a tainted probe.

207 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:17:44pm

re: #206 Decatur Deb

Fewer things more painful than a tainted probe.

Well, having your tainted probe. Bad aim and all that.

208 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:18:35pm

re: #207 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Well, having your tainted probe. Bad aim and all that.

"Close enough for government medicine"

209 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:19:26pm

re: #201 Gus 802

Filthy muggle /Voldemort

210 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:19:35pm

re: #208 Decatur Deb

"Close enough for government medicine"

"YOU MISSED THE HOLE! YOU MISSED THE HOLE!"

211 Jaerik  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:19:37pm

I have to admit, my primary worry here is that the scandal is going to burn itself out. Things like people being found dead (there is no evidence of foul play) or the 9/11 hacking or NYDA bribery accusations, (in the very preliminary steps), etc... we need to be very careful about our gleeful pile-on, here.

Remember, ONE over-zealous dot-connect that doesn't pan out in public, and we give all of Fox and the GOP an easy out to claim the entire thing is made up. I would prefer to watch this thing smolder like a long fuse through all of News Corp's news divisions before it's done, not blow up prematurely and leave most of it untouched.

212 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:21:56pm

re: #211 Jaerik

Ms. Brooks has an Oct appointment with Her Majesty's minions.

213 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:22:38pm

re: #212 Decatur Deb

Ms. Brooks has an Oct appointment with Her Majesty's minions.

That sounds smoldery.

214 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:23:44pm

re: #212 Decatur Deb

Ms. Brooks has an Oct appointment with Her Majesty's minions.

Tower of London to get put back into use?

215 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:24:16pm

re: #214 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Tower of London to get put back into use?

"Rack 'em up!"

216 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:29:01pm

I bet someone is gonna make a mini docu-drama out of all this. :sigh:

217 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:32:42pm

re: #216 Slumbering Behemoth


I bet someone is gonna make a mini docu-drama out of all this. :sigh:


"It takes a team of over 16 imagineers to run our lifelike Murdoch. Its takes 3 of them just to operate the jowls!"

218 Gus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:33:16pm

BBL

219 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:36:45pm
It’s a very defensive piece, full of strange writing and non sequiturs — but most of all, full of that patented Murdoch attitude.

It doesn't seem all that long ago when conservativism was supposedly the ideology of "personal responsibility": conservative pundits and Republican House Speakers would bray loudly if they perceived someone as complaining about their situation or making excuses for their lot in life. Things have changed.

220 allegro  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:37:40pm

re: #193 SpaceJesus

an old favorite on mormonism

[Video]

Whoa, I think that just freaked me out.

221 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:37:40pm

‘Republicanity’—The GOP Transformation is Nearly Complete

222 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:37:48pm

Anyone here read anything about the recent book The Interrogator: An Education?

The Interrogator is the story of Carle’s most serious assignment, when he was “surged” to become an interrogator in the U.S. Global War on Terror to interrogate a top level detainee at one of the CIA’s notorious black sites overseas. It tells of his encounter with one of the most senior al-Qa’ida detainees the U.S. captured after 9/11, a “ghost detainee” who, the CIA believed, might hold the key to finding Osama bin Ladin.

As Carle’s interrogation sessions progressed though, he began to seriously doubt the operation. Was this man, kidnapped in the Middle East, really the senior al-Qa’ida official the CIA believed he was?

I've been reading it (due back at the library today unfortunately - along with four other books) and its really shocked me at how incompetent the CIA can be. I'd say the author is so-so, and I wouldn't recommend the book highly, but it is worth a glance just to get an idea of the state of our intelligence community. Seriously embarrassing.

223 garhighway  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:39:11pm

The on-line CJR weighs in on today's precious WSJ editorial:

[Link: www.cjr.org...]

Sample:

That editorial has achieved the remarkable feat of making the WSJ editorial page even less respected than it was before — especially since its publication coincides with a wonderful column from David Carr which shows just how a culture of aggression tipping over into illegality was widespread in News Corp, not only in the UK but also in the US.

224 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:43:08pm

re: #198 wrenchwench

It's stuff like this that makes me reject them all. Show me any "Christian faith" that doesn't require belief in things that other "Christian" people don't believe in. Your statement puts the Mormons on the outside, and "all others" on the inside. Catholics put everybody but themselves on the outside. The Bachmann's old church puts anyone who doesn't believe the Pope is the Antichrist on the outside.

You're all on the outside, IMHO.

There are plenty of Christians who are perfectly okay with the notion that all those pursuing their own path to God is going down the rightpath, be that the Chstian God, the Old Testament God, Buddha, Allah or whatever.

But these people tend to be quiet, rational and not obsessed with gaining money and attention to the point that they will do anything to obtain both.

Took me a long time to run across such folks as they do not get out and proselytize in your face, they just lead normal yet exemplary lives.

225 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:50:26pm

Charlie Sheen to Return to TV With Syndicated Sitcom 'Anger Management'

[Link: tv.yahoo.com...]

What could POSSIBLY go wrong!!!


(actually, a pretty apt title/subject for him!!)

226 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:51:38pm

Also interesting...

Police examine bag found in bin near Rebekah Brooks's home

Detectives are examining a computer, paperwork and a phone found in a bin near the riverside London home of Rebekah Brooks, the former chief executive of News International.

The Guardian has learned that a bag containing the items was found in an underground car park in the Design Centre at the exclusive Chelsea Harbour development on Monday afternoon.

The car park, under a shopping centre, is yards from the gated apartment block where Brooks lives with her husband, a former racehorse trainer and close friend of the prime minister David Cameron.

It is understood the bag was handed into security at around 3pm and that shortly afterwards, Brooks's husband, Charlie, arrived and tried to reclaim it. He was unable to prove the bag was his and the security guard refused to release it.

Instead, it is understood that the security guard called the police. In less than half an hour, two marked police cars and an unmarked forensics car are said to have arrived at the scene.

Better henchmen, please.

227 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:52:35pm

re: #226 makeitstop

Also interesting...

Police examine bag found in bin near Rebekah Brooks's home


Better henchmen, please.


totally non-pc, the term is "persons of hench"

228 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:53:44pm

re: #226 makeitstop

Holy crap, really? That's nutty.

229 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:54:39pm

re: #227 ralphieboy

totally non-pc, the term is "persons of hench"

Noted. Forgive my lack of PC-itude.

But seriously - if you're gonna dispose of evidence, make a little more effort than tossing it in a garbage can right near the suspect's house!

Amateurs.

230 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:55:20pm

re: #227 ralphieboy

henchwench!

231 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:55:27pm

re: #227 ralphieboy

totally non-pc, the term is "persons of hench"

Minions is the current generic term I believe.

232 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:55:49pm

re: #229 makeitstop

Noted. Forgive my lack of PC-itude.

But seriously - if you're gonna dispose of evidence, make a little more effort than tossing it in a garbage can right near the suspect's house!

Amateurs.

Ahem--"Riverside London home of Rebekah..."

233 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:57:20pm

re: #230 Sergey Romanov

henchwench!

You better hope wrenchwench doesn't see that!!
//

234 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:58:17pm

re: #233 sattv4u2

You better hope wrenchwench doesn't see that!!
//

Or her intern, "Wrenchwenchhench".

235 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:58:40pm

re: #232 Decatur Deb

Ahem--"Riverside London home of Rebekah..."

Really! Toss the damn bag in the water, ya numbskulls!

236 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:59:25pm

re: #234 Decatur Deb

Or her intern, "Wrenchwenchhench".

The guy is a mencsh

237 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:59:31pm

re: #235 makeitstop

Really! Toss the damn bag in the water, ya numbskulls!

Good co-conspirators are hard to find...

238 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 1:59:44pm

re: #234 Decatur Deb

Or her intern, "Wrenchwenchhench".

Or where the intern in waiting is

Wrenchwenchhenchbench

239 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:00:00pm

re: #236 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

henchmensch?

240 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:00:08pm

re: #238 sattv4u2

Or where the intern in waiting is

Wrenchwenchhenchbench

I think he's French.

241 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:00:51pm

snort!

242 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:00:55pm

re: #240 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think he's French.

Ah, then he's Stenchwrenchwenchhenchbench.

243 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:01:47pm

re: #242 Obdicut

Ah, then he's Stenchwrenchwenchhenchbench.

His favorite actress is Judi Dench.

244 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:01:51pm

re: #242 Obdicut

Ah, then he's Stenchwrenchwenchhenchbench.

and after he's hydrated, he's QuenchStenchwrenchwenchhenchbench

245 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:01:55pm

re: #242 Obdicut

yeah, the whole enchilada.

246 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:02:13pm

re: #242 Obdicut

Ah, then he's Stenchwrenchwenchhenchbench.

I knew someone would bring up the stench...

247 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:03:17pm

re: #246 wrenchwench

I knew someone would bring up the stench...

Then get a bucket of water and drench the Stenchwrenchwenchhenchbench.

248 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:03:21pm

OK, cheat sheet:

English words ending with "ench"

alebench, bedrench, bench, blench, clench, disbench, drawbench, drench, elench, entrench, flench, french, indrench, intrench, outquench, quench, reintrench, retrench, stench, tench, trench, unclench, wench, workbench, wrench

249 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:03:31pm

re: #244 sattv4u2

and after he's hydrated, he's QuenchStenchwrenchwenchhenchbench

He also poured some of the hydration over his head, making him
DrenschedQuenchStenchwrenchwenchhenchbench

250 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:03:48pm

re: #248 Sergey Romanov

OK, cheat sheet:

English words ending with "ench"

alebench, bedrench, bench, blench, clench, disbench, drawbench, drench, elench, entrench, flench, french, indrench, intrench, outquench, quench, reintrench, retrench, stench, tench, trench, unclench, wench, workbench, wrench

COMBO BREAKER!

251 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:04:00pm

re: #248 Sergey Romanov

OK, cheat sheet:

English words ending with "ench"

alebench, bedrench, bench, blench, clench, disbench, drawbench, drench, elench, entrench, flench, french, indrench, intrench, outquench, quench, reintrench, retrench, stench, tench, trench, unclench, wench, workbench, wrench


Mensch!

252 sattv4u2  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:04:20pm

re: #248 Sergey Romanov

OK, cheat sheet:

English words ending with "ench"

alebench, bedrench, bench, blench, clench, disbench, drawbench, drench, elench, entrench, flench, french, indrench, intrench, outquench, quench, reintrench, retrench, stench, tench, trench, unclench, wench, workbench, wrench

For cheating, you'll have to take a BackBench

253 Kragar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:04:57pm

Time to take the kids to the Dentist. Laters.

254 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:05:01pm

re: #148 Fozzie Bear

Ethics and such aside, the writing in that WSJ article is extremely poor quality. I would have gotten a C in high school on an essay of that quality, if the professor were feeling generous.

That's what we get from Homeschooled Journalism School.

255 Petero1818  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:05:04pm

re: #61 BigPapa

You don't think lies and distortions salaciously ladled with racism or xenophobia are issues worthy of discussion?


I think lies about issues are worth discussing. I think lies about what one pundit said about an issue, less so. That is not to say they should not remain important to the subject of that lie, but my world does not revolve around what one blogger thinks of another, and what one news organization thinks of another.

256 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:06:05pm

re: #252 sattv4u2

Dunno about that, but I once took a BrainBench.

257 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:06:48pm

These articles are about trying to protect an investment, and that is what Newscorp is about, the corporation has long since taken priority over the news

258 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:06:49pm

breaking:

someone from Anon claims to have the emails of Sun/News of The World.

anonymouSabu The Real Sabu
Sun/News of the world OWNED. We're sitting on their emails. Press release tomorrow. In the meantime check: new-times.co.uk/sun/ #antisec

The link is to a hacked page of new-times.co.uk:

[Link: www.new-times.co.uk...]

259 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:08:32pm

Just posted Rebekah Wade's email log-in info:

anonymouSabu The Real Sabu
rebekah - 62dd0bd92bf4fafae73c531ee5108c77 - Rebekah Wade - rebekah.wade@the-sun.co.uk - password: 63000 - salt: rebekah.

I feel like over the past 12 months I've found myself in a cyberpunk novel.

260 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:09:42pm

re: #258 Alexzander

Heh, once in a while Anon is a force for good.

261 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:09:58pm

re: #258 Alexzander

breaking:

someone from Anon claims to have the emails of Sun/News of The World.

anonymouSabu The Real Sabu
Sun/News of the world OWNED. We're sitting on their emails. Press release tomorrow. In the meantime check: new-times.co.uk/sun/ #antisec

The link is to a hacked page of new-times.co.uk:

[Link: www.new-times.co.uk...]

Something tells me the News Corp stockholders just shit a collective brick.

262 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:11:00pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that may not be 'treated as suspicious', but my eyebrow does go up.

re: #188 C1nnabar

In this case, where there's smoke, there's fire.

There are some serious differences between Mormon doctrine and mainstream Protestant (and Catholic) Christianity -- e.g. multiple gods, "God was once a man like us," God the father has a physical body, Jesus was begotten as humans are (no virgin birth), and a whole lot more.

Which is why all the other Christians have so much trouble with Romney's faith.

And nothing makes Mormon doctrine any more ridiculous than Catholic doctrine

everyone got ta sell you their religion, that's how the game is played. 31 flavors

263 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:13:17pm

re: #258 Alexzander

breaking:

someone from Anon claims to have the emails of Sun/News of The World.

anonymouSabu The Real Sabu
Sun/News of the world OWNED. We're sitting on their emails. Press release tomorrow. In the meantime check: new-times.co.uk/sun/ #antisec

The link is to a hacked page of new-times.co.uk:

[Link: www.new-times.co.uk...]

Dear Religious Entity In The Sky,

Please (ohpleaserohpleaseohplease) let that collection of emails contain a few addressed personally to Roger Ailes. Thank you.

Your pal here on terra firma,
makeitstop

264 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:14:21pm

re: #258 Alexzander

breaking:

someone from Anon claims to have the emails of Sun/News of The World.

anonymouSabu The Real Sabu
Sun/News of the world OWNED. We're sitting on their emails. Press release tomorrow. In the meantime check: new-times.co.uk/sun/ #antisec

The link is to a hacked page of new-times.co.uk:

[Link: www.new-times.co.uk...]

Ugh. I wouldn't trust anything from Anon. In fact they're probably doing more harm than good by claiming to have stolen emails.

265 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:14:27pm

re: #263 makeitstop

I am offering up a large pot of finest home-made pesto to the Flysing Spaghetti Monster that he may grant your widh...

266 allegro  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:15:27pm

re: #263 makeitstop

That link led to this...

Rupert Murdoch, the controversial media mogul, has reportedly been found dead in his garden, police announce.

Murdoch, aged 80, has said to have ingested a large quantity of palladium before stumbling into his famous topiary garden late last night, passing out in the early hours of the morning.

"We found the chemicals sitting beside a kitchen table, recently cooked," one officer states. "From what we can gather, Murdoch melted and consumed large quantities of it before exiting into his garden."

Read more: [Link: www.new-times.co.uk...]

wow

267 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:16:36pm

re: #260 Sergey Romanov

Heh, once in a while Anon is a force for good.

I don't think so. They're interfering with a very important investigation. Even if the emails end up being real Murdoch can claim that hackers planted them there. This really fucks things up and only helps Murdoch.

268 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:16:44pm

re: #266 allegro

That link led to this...

Read more: [Link: www.new-times.co.uk...]

wow

Yeah thats the hacked page. Pretty dark. There is a typical LULZ comic from Anon/Antisec at the bottom.

269 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:17:35pm
LulzSec The Lulz Boat
So remember that secret pastebin operation... well... new-times.co.uk/sun/ This is only the beginning. FUCK YOU MURDOCH. YOU ARE NEXT.

Crazy shit.

270 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:18:09pm

re: #262 WindUpBird

No question about it, but it explains why all the other sects can cluster together while excluding that one outlier from their club.

271 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:18:34pm

re: #266 allegro

haha what?

272 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:19:02pm

More from twitter:

LulzSec The Lulz Boat
We have owned Sun/News of the World - that story is simply phase 1 - expect the lulz to flow in coming days.
273 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:19:27pm
The Schadenfreude is so thick you can’t cut it with a chainsaw.

I think that is an accurate statement.

274 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:19:49pm

re: #264 Killgore Trout

The best way to describe Anonymous is that they are, for lack of a better term, Chaotic Neutral.

275 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:20:25pm

re: #267 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. They're interfering with a very important investigation. Even if the emails end up being real Murdoch can claim that hackers planted them there. This really fucks things up and only helps Murdoch.

True enough, "chain of custody" and all that. But, at the same time, it's likely going to send investors scrambling.

276 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:20:26pm

re: #188 C1nnabar

Dunno why this comment is getting pummeled. If someone doesn't count Mormons among Christians, it is their intellectual right to do so, since Mormonism is a borderline case. It can be thought of as a Christian branch, or it can be thought of as a whole new religion. They have the Bible, like Christianity, but Christianity has OT and nobody calls it Judaism on that basis. Mormons have a whole new scripture, a whole new theology, so if someone classifies them as non-Christian, it can be done, as long as the purpose is an academic classification (which can be debated) and not denigration (that is obviously the purpose of the Fox hosts).

277 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:20:39pm

re: #273 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think that is an accurate statement.


Is it "Schadenfreude" when a burglar gets bussted for armed entry? Or a drunk busted for DUI near a school?

278 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:22:05pm

I think 4chan's heart is in the right place, but them hacking into News Corp is just going to give those vile shitheads (via fox news) a boogie man to distract attention away from themselves.

279 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:22:14pm

re: #277 ralphieboy

No. It is when folks get pleasure from other's misfortune, whether earned or not.

It's a German word.

280 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:22:24pm

re: #273 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think that is an accurate statement.

I think so too because it might actually be justified. We all like to see a corrupt Goliath fall.

281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:22:42pm

re: #278 SpaceJesus

OOH! SHINY!

282 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:23:16pm

re: #275 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

True enough, "chain of custody" and all that. But, at the same time, it's likely going to send investors scrambling.

What a mess. Every email server they even try to hack is now a contaminated crimes scene. It's a huge headache for investigators.

283 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:23:23pm

re: #272 Alexzander

Of all the groups that could have gotten their emails, Anonymous is the worst possible one.

They will release everything to everyone. The police, the Parliament of UK the Congress, the guy across the street, your next door neighbor's cat, Furry advocates, everybody.

284 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:24:09pm

re: #276 Sergey Romanov

As far as I am concerned "Christian" means "following the teachings of Jesus Christ".

That leaves a lot of latitude about believing he was the Son of God, accepting him as a personal savior, believing he was born of a virgin, resurrected from the dead, or any of the other ancilliary dogma that has been built up around him.

285 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:24:36pm

re: #276 Sergey Romanov

It's a bit like Nation of Islam. Is it Islam or is it not? You'll hear different opinions.

286 Petero1818  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:24:53pm

re: #76 negativ

To the extent that other (read: any) bloggers have a significant audience, and ostensibly a degree of influence over that audience, it bears at least mentioning when one of those bloggers presents its audience with a version of reality that is flatly contradicted by facts. Some bloggers are consistently so out of sync with reality as to border on science fiction. Whether it's for the purpose of setting the record straight (think "Rathergate"), or merely for the lulz (the shrieking harpy), I typically enjoy seeing other blogs and journalists called out on their nonsense.

Well, to each his own regarding the "lulz", but it makes discussing this issue, and this is a real issue, more difficult. The reality is that the change in media and its overt bias over the last 10 years has made an intelligent discourse around this issue more difficult. It allows idiots like these in the WSJ piece to allege that this is a which hunt, when we know that this really is of importance. News organizations and blogs (though less so) should IMHO focus on News and only comment on other news sources in events of fraud. Spending pages upon pages telling me what a tool the shrieking harpy is wasted on me (again no offence Charles - totally your right to do so) I know she is a tool and that is why I don't read her blog. I knew it a long time ago, and am unlikely to think otherwise anytime soon.

287 mr.fusion  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:25:41pm

Anyone looking for a little entertainment, Chris Matthews is slapping around Grover Norquist on Hardball

288 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:25:48pm

re: #280 Alexzander

I think so too because it might actually be justified. We all like to see a corrupt Goliath fall.

We enjoyed Tiger's fall. We enjoyed OJ's fall. We enjoyed John Edwards' fall. It's what we do.

I am not saying that Schadenfreude is a bad thing, one only has to read comments to see that people are getting quite a kick our of News Corps' troubles. Therefore the statement is accurate.

289 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:26:26pm

re: #282 Killgore Trout

What a mess. Every email server they even try to hack is now a contaminated crimes scene. It's a huge headache for investigators.

Agreed. I'm not entirely sure how such law works across the pond, but any lawyer worth his salt here would argue that any evidence found as a result of this email release is "poison fruit," found only as a result of an illegal release of private information. Anonymous just turned what might have been a boon into a bust.

290 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:26:43pm

re: #284 ralphieboy

That doesn't really deal with syncretic religions, and neither with cases like Islam, which accepts Jesus as a prophet.

291 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:27:03pm

re: #279 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

No. It is when folks get pleasure from other's misfortune, whether earned or not.

It's a German word.

Was aware of that, the point is NewsCorp is answering for what seems to be some serious criminal activity.

It is being spun on their part as part of a government bid to seize control of the media, but that is like saying that busting a a serial rapist is government interfering in expressing his sexual preferences.

292 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:28:03pm

re: #284 ralphieboy

As far as I am concerned "Christian" means "following the teachings of Jesus Christ".

That leaves a lot of latitude about believing he was the Son of God, accepting him as a personal savior, believing he was born of a virgin, resurrected from the dead, or any of the other ancilliary dogma that has been built up around him.

I'm not a theologian but they added a book and and that's usually the division point. Christians added the New Test and no longer considered Jewish. Muslims added the Quran, no longer Christian. Book of Mormon could easily be seen as the same situation. It's not a big deal to me either way.

293 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:29:35pm

re: #291 ralphieboy

Oh, sure. I am simply pointing out that folks are getting a kick out of what's going on. Actually, I'm finding it funny too.

I would like to point out that I had never even seen the word "imprimatur" until I read that article.

294 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:31:14pm

re: #284 ralphieboy

As far as I am concerned "Christian" means "following the teachings of Jesus Christ".

That leaves a lot of latitude about believing he was the Son of God, accepting him as a personal savior, believing he was born of a virgin, resurrected from the dead, or any of the other ancilliary dogma that has been built up around him.

No one holds the trademark, though Spacejesus is working up a lawsuit.

295 Petero1818  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:31:28pm

re: #292 Killgore Trout

I'm not a theologian but they added a book and and that's usually the division point. Christians added the New Test and no longer considered Jewish. Muslims added the Quran, no longer Christian. Book of Mormon could easily be seen as the same situation. It's not a big deal to me either way.

You mean this whole damn thing is just about an epilogue?//

296 Petero1818  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:32:40pm

re: #287 mr.fusion

Anyone looking for a little entertainment, Chris Matthews is slapping around Grover Norquist on Hardball

Hopefully he will slap him with a new tax.

297 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:33:14pm

re: #276 Sergey Romanov

Totally. There are significant differences in Mormon doctrine from either Protestantism or Catholicism. I'm not saying it's less valid a religion or less valid an offshoot of Christianity, but it is one that depends on having a modern-day prophet. Luther didn't claim to be a prophet, just a pious theologian.

Generally, when you add a text that is different from the original religion, you can be considered to be a different religion. The Book of Mormon is not part of of mainstream Christian teaching, and it is the basis of Mormon theology.

298 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:33:14pm

re: #284 ralphieboy

As far as I am concerned "Christian" means "following the teachings of Jesus Christ".

That leaves a lot of latitude about believing he was the Son of God, accepting him as a personal savior, believing he was born of a virgin, resurrected from the dead, or any of the other ancilliary dogma that has been built up around him.

I tend to agree with this. Even though I believe a fair bit of the things certain of you find objectionable (I have no problem with the Nicene Creed, for example.) I don't consider it necessary. If someone is trying to live by his teachings, then that's enough for me.

299 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:33:37pm

re: #296 Petero1818

Hopefully he will slap him with a new tax.

How about a Newt Tax to help cover his campaign and jewelry debts?

300 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:33:44pm

re: #293 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, sure. I am simply pointing out that folks are getting a kick out of what's going on. Actually, I'm finding it funny too.

I would like to point out that I had never even seen the word "imprimatur" until I read that article.

It's always right there, under the "Nihil Obstat".

301 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:35:02pm

They still haven't taken the hacked page down. That's incompetent.

302 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:35:21pm

re: #297 Obdicut

And not only Book of Mormon, but also Doctrine & Covenants and Pearl of the Great Price - also all new scriptures.

303 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:35:27pm

people say a lot of things, but at least mormons got the whole "jesus lives in outer space" part right

304 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:35:31pm

OT, but the US Drug War is not lowering the use of Marijuana in the United States. 41.2% of all adults in the US have used Marijuana at one time or another. Only Canada is higher, and that might be because of different sampling (Canada starts counting at 15, not 18).

It's time to give up the ghost on the drug war.

305 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:36:03pm

re: #304 ProLifeLiberal

like that stealth pun

306 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:36:16pm

re: #298 wlewisiii

I have no problem with the Nicene Creed, for example.

That is why I do not attend any church where they recite it, I do not believe in it. My version of Christianity is simply that reading and studying his teachings can help you lead a better life and be a more moral person.

307 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:36:46pm

re: #276 Sergey Romanov

Dunno why this comment is getting pummeled. If someone doesn't count Mormons among Christians, it is their intellectual right to do so, since Mormonism is a borderline case. It can be thought of as a Christian branch, or it can be thought of as a whole new religion. They have the Bible, like Christianity, but Christianity has OT and nobody calls it Judaism on that basis. Mormons have a whole new scripture, a whole new theology, so if someone classifies them as non-Christian, it can be done, as long as the purpose is an academic classification (which can be debated) and not denigration (that is obviously the purpose of the Fox hosts).

I started it, because I have a hard time with this:

as long as the purpose is an academic classification (which can be debated) and not denigration

It always looks like denigration to me. When I see what looks like one of 'em denigrating a different one of 'em, I want to denigrate them all, and restore nature, or something.

Sorry.

308 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:37:47pm

re: #274 ProLifeLiberal

The best way to describe Anonymous is that they are, for lack of a better term, Chaotic Neutral.

Sort of. I think of them as being technologically smart, but real world stupid. Sort of like a monkey driving a jet powered motorcycle. They just don't have the real world smarts to use their technology properly.

309 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:39:31pm

re: #307 wrenchwench


It is a problem with the extreme right: they are very big on drawing lines and setting limits on what they find "truly American", "truly Christian" or even "truly conservative".

And then making exceptions when someone they support crosses one of these arbitrary lines.

310 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:39:45pm

re: #308 Killgore Trout

I have no idea why you'd want to insult monkeys like that, Killgore.
/

311 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:40:03pm

re: #274 ProLifeLiberal

The best way to describe Anonymous is that they are, for lack of a better term, Chaotic Neutral.

Heheh.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

312 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:40:21pm

re: #308 Killgore Trout

I want a picture of this.

re: #307 wrenchwench

I'm going to agree with Sergey here. From my perspective and understanding Mormonism is more like Psuedo-Christianity. They have alot of beliefs that are simply not-Christian.

I can get more critical, but that isn't unnecessary right now.

313 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:40:40pm

re: #304 ProLifeLiberal

OT, but the US Drug War is not lowering the use of Marijuana in the United States. 41.2% of all adults in the US have used Marijuana at one time or another. Only Canada is higher, and that might be because of different sampling (Canada starts counting at 15, not 18).

It's time to give up the ghost on the drug war.

Litmus test question: "Would the country be better or worse if the other 59% took a couple tokes?"

314 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:40:42pm

re: #308 Killgore Trout


Seems to be driven by a sophmoric sense of humor, but in this case, it is no longer really funny

315 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:41:03pm

re: #311 Sergey Romanov

Are you my Russian Doppelganger?

//

316 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:42:19pm

re: #313 Decatur Deb

Litmus test question: "Would the country be better or worse if the other 59% took a couple tokes?"


It would be better off if the other 59% stopped worrying about what adults do to have fun in their spare time without endangering anyone else's pursruit of happiness.

317 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:42:38pm

re: #312 ProLifeLiberal

I'm not saying it's pseudo-Christianity though, no more so than Christianity is a pseudo-Judaism ;)

318 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:42:54pm

re: #309 ralphieboy

It is a problem with the extreme right humans: they are very big on drawing lines and setting limits on what they find "truly American", "truly Christian" or even "truly conservative human".

And then making exceptions when someone they support crosses one of these arbitrary lines.

FTF all time.

319 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:43:22pm

re: #316 ralphieboy

I've never used Mary Jane, but I'm not going to worry.

1 down, 178,999,999 to go!

320 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:44:05pm

re: #318 wrenchwench

FTF all time.


humans are prone to drawing lines, the extreme right makes it one of their trademarks.

321 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:44:24pm

re: #312 ProLifeLiberal

I can get more critical, but that isn't unnecessary right now.

I can agree with that.

/?

322 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:44:40pm

re: #301 Obdicut

They still haven't taken the hacked page down. That's incompetent.

When I posted it here it had only been up a minute or two.

323 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:44:51pm

re: #315 ProLifeLiberal

Are you my Russian Doppelganger?

//

GMTA(BFDT)

324 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:45:09pm

re: #320 ralphieboy

humans are prone to drawing lines, the extreme right makes it one of their trademarks.

How far over to the right is 'extreme'?

/draw that line!

325 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:45:24pm

For four years my wife and I lived on a hill in the redwoods and often lost power due to wind or storms...sometimes for up to three days at a time, and usually when I went skiing without her for a weekend and she wound up staying in the dark and cold by herself. We thought we'd left that curse behind us when we bought a house at sea level, but nooo...not with PG&E on the case...fuckers. I no sooner landed in Atlanta when my phone rang and my wife said, "Honey, the power just went out." WHAT THE FRIGGIN' FUCK??!!11ty!...seriously...in July?

326 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:45:54pm

Oh, and I've yet to see a young man sawin' on a fiddle and playin' it hot.

327 Blizard  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:47:35pm

re: #301 Obdicut

They still haven't taken the hacked page down. That's incompetent.


My guess is it's in their favor to leave it up at this point. Or, at least take their time taking it down. Either way, Fox just got their new talking points...crud.

328 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:47:47pm

re: #324 wrenchwench

How far over to the right is 'extreme'?

If I can barely reach it from a sitting position, it's to far to the right. If I have to get up to retrieve, then it's 'extreme'.

/GO TEAM LAZY!

329 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:48:05pm

re: #317 Sergey Romanov

Let's not forget, Mormons are the only religious group in US history to go to war with the US Government as a whole. Certainly nutjobs of other religions have done attacks here, but it has never been the entire religious community.

It says something. Not to mention the racism, the fact that women are seen as baby factories, and about a gazillion more issues.

In the big 4 Abrahamic religions, a woman can get to heaven on her own. Not so with Mormonism. She must be married to a Mormon and be completely submissive to get to heaven. It's disgusting. Not to mention they are Polytheistic, which is flat-out un-Abrahamic. They can believe what they want, but it is dishonest for them to call themselves Christian.

330 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:48:48pm

re: #324 wrenchwench

How far over to the right is 'extreme'?

/draw that line!

my line in the sand:

extreme (in any direction) is when one's enemies (those with whom one disagree) are considered such a threat that any means to silence them or put them out of action is seen as justfied

331 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:49:04pm

re: #321 wrenchwench

I was in a conversation while typing that and zoned out. It should say.

but that isn't necessary right now.

332 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:49:16pm

re: #329 ProLifeLiberal

In the big 4 Abrahamic religions...

There's four now? Damnit!
/

333 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:50:05pm

re: #329 ProLifeLiberal

It's disgusting. Not to mention they are Polytheistic, which is flat-out un-Abrahamic. They can believe what they want, but it is dishonest for them to call themselves Christian.

There's what I was talking about. Denigration.

334 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:51:30pm

re: #329 ProLifeLiberal

In the big 4 Abrahamic religions

What are the 4?

I'm missing one.

335 darthstar  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:52:00pm

re: #334 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

What are the 4?

I'm missing one.

Money.

336 garhighway  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:52:23pm

re: #334 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

What are the 4?

I'm missing one.

There used to be a Big 8, but four left to join the SWC.

337 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:52:32pm

re: #329 ProLifeLiberal

Let's not forget, Mormons are the only religious group in US history to go to war with the US Government as a whole. Certainly nutjobs of other religions have done attacks here, but it has never been the entire religious community.

It says something. Not to mention the racism, the fact that women are seen as baby factories, and about a gazillion more issues.

In the big 4 Abrahamic religions, a woman can get to heaven on her own. Not so with Mormonism. She must be married to a Mormon and be completely submissive to get to heaven. It's disgusting. Not to mention they are Polytheistic, which is flat-out un-Abrahamic. They can believe what they want, but it is dishonest for them to call themselves Christian.

You are wrong.

338 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:53:33pm

re: #335 darthstar

Rastafarianism?

339 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:53:35pm

re: #330 ralphieboy

my line in the sand:

extreme (in any direction) is when one's enemies (those with whom one disagree) are considered such a threat that any means to silence them or put them out of action is seen as justfied

You draw that line farther to the right than I do. I call 'em extreme even if they use legal means to deprive me of what I consider my rights.

340 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:53:57pm

Via Politico:

Another commie tranzi prog financials rating agency has warned on a downgrade of US credit--that's at least 3:

[Link: www.politico.com...]

341 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:54:05pm

re: #332 Slumbering Behemoth

I put the Bahai Faith in there for good measure.

re: #333 wrenchwench

But there is no support for Polytheism in Abrahamic Theology. They lay outside of it.

May not be pretty but it is the truth. They can act as they wish, but calling themselves Christian is stretching truth to the breaking point.

342 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:54:38pm

re: #332 Slumbering Behemoth

There's four now? Damnit!
/

All worship his holiness Gravel.

343 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:55:28pm

re: #289 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Agreed. I'm not entirely sure how such law works across the pond, but any lawyer worth his salt here would argue that any evidence found as a result of this email release is "poison fruit," found only as a result of an illegal release of private information. Anonymous just turned what might have been a boon into a bust.

I'm sorry but you're wrong, that's not how it works here. "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree" only applies to evidence gathered illegally by police, not independent third parties.

Evidence unlawfully obtained from the defendant by a private person is admissible. The exclusionary rule is designed to protect privacy rights, with the Fourth Amendment applying specifically to government officials.[17]

344 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:55:28pm

re: #341 ProLifeLiberal

I put the Bahai Faith in there for good measure.

re: #333 wrenchwench

But there is no support for Polytheism in Abrahamic Theology. They lay outside of it.

May not be pretty but it is the truth. They can act as they wish, but calling themselves Christian is stretching truth to the breaking point.

Some call any Trinitarian a polytheist. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

345 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:56:19pm

re: #342 Alexzander

All worship his holiness Gravel.

Now you've done it. Someone is bound to ask what that means now.

/happenseverytime

346 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:58:03pm

re: #337 EmmmieG

You are wrong.

In all parts or just some?

347 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:58:16pm

re: #344 wrenchwench

Some call any Trinitarian a polytheist. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Those people don't understand Higher Math.

348 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:58:17pm

re: #345 makeitstop

On that note, I'm gonna sneak out of here now, and get ready to grill some pork. Gravel be with you.

349 Hawaii69  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:58:20pm

James O'keefe relesases new "Blockbuster"

[Link: www.mediaite.com...]


Look at the the way these two clowns are dressed. They apparently went in claiming to be Russian drug dealers who drove a McLaren F1 with a gold plated engine, and pimped out their younger sisters.

The outfits are ridiculous enough....I imagine the phoney russian accents were just as bad. It seems that O'Keefe's strategy is to have
his "actors" look and sound so ridiculous, that their victims just nod and play along to humor them.

After all, you woulnd't want to send in an authentic looking drug dealer or pimp, and have them report you. That would defeat the purpose of these silly videos.

350 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:58:21pm

re: #341 ProLifeLiberal

May not be pretty but it is the truth. They can act as they wish, but calling themselves Christian is stretching truth to the breaking point.

As far as I'm concerned, the truth is up for grabs, as is the breaking point.

351 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 2:58:34pm

re: #329 ProLifeLiberal

As long as they just say "Christians", without adding "exactly like you", it's not dishonest, just an opinion. And the Mormonism of the older times is different from the modern Mormonism, so war, polygamy, racism - all this is no longer matters for evaluation. Interestingly, LDS has been moving closer to the traditional Christianity at least in image - IIRC Gordon B. Hinckley in interviews insisted that they're not emphasizing certain teachings (like the infinite chain of gods etc.). The wild theological speculations (many of which the Church now insists are not binding) really flourished only in the beginning (JS, BY, Orson Pratt...).

352 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:02:12pm

re: #350 wrenchwench

As far as I'm concerned, the truth is up for grabs, as is the breaking point.

When it comes to religion, the truth is what one preaches.

353 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:02:32pm

re: #343 goddamnedfrank

I'm sorry but you're wrong, that's not how it works here. "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree" only applies to evidence gathered illegally by police, not independent third parties.

Evidence unlawfully obtained from the defendant by a private person is admissible. The exclusionary rule is designed to protect privacy rights, with the Fourth Amendment applying specifically to government officials.[17]

I stand corrected.

354 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:02:52pm

re: #341 ProLifeLiberal

They can act as they wish, but calling themselves Christian is stretching truth to the breaking point.

Many a War of Religion has been fought and won/lost over this sentence. A lot of Christians have killed/died for it, not just the Moron Church.

355 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:02:58pm

re: #337 EmmmieG

On what exactly?

There was the Utah War (among others).

The Gender Role:

Erastus Snow preached: "No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant"

re: #351 Sergey Romanov

I see your point.

356 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:03:09pm

"In the US, News Corp shares have closed 4.3% lower tonight amid the turmoil engulfing its UK businesses. The conglomerate's shares are down 15% this month."

357 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:03:49pm

re: #353 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I stand corrected.

What kind of crap is that? This is the Internets. Pull up your boots, man.

358 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:04:11pm

re: #354 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I see your point of view. I'll tone down the harshness.

I still have some criticism though. That won't stop.

359 Blizard  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:04:16pm

re: #343 goddamnedfrank

So, the bust can go on?

360 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:05:13pm

re: #329 ProLifeLiberal

Okay, that's way over the line. Furthermore, a lot of people call Catholicism polytheistic as well.

Mormons have significant doctrinal differences from mainstream Christianity, more so than Catholicism does from Protestantism. This isn't a statement about how Mormonism sucks and Mormons are bad, and I have no idea why you want to take it in that direction.

361 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:05:51pm

re: #358 ProLifeLiberal

I see your point of view. I'll tone down the harshness.

I still have some criticism though. That won't stop.

Christians are in any case justified in claiming that Mormonism has nothing to do with their faith.

362 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:06:42pm

re: #359 Blizard

It doesn't present any legal problem. It presents a PR problem, making them look like victims now, and casting doubt where there should be none.

363 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:07:12pm

re: #354 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Many a War of Religion has been fought and won/lost over this sentence. A lot of Christians have killed/died for it, not just the Moron Church.

Out of curiosity... was this a typo?

364 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:07:20pm

re: #358 ProLifeLiberal

I see your point of view. I'll tone down the harshness.

Personally, I agree with the harshness, especially since they have no problem being harsh on everyone else in their path. Then they want to portray themselves as hapless victims when we don't allow them to victimize us us.

But the No True Scotsman argument never works for Christians trying to define out others calling themselves Christians. The whole religion has a history of this.

365 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:07:29pm

There is no governing body, and no ISO certification standard for Christianity. If some says they're a Christian, they're a Christian. FWIW

366 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:07:37pm

you see, anon and 4chan are clearly working for obama, therefore state action is present.

367 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:07:54pm

re: #363 JasonA

Out of curiosity... was this a typo?

Oops.

368 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:08:19pm

re: #360 Obdicut

I remember the issue with Proposition 8 funding.

Also, my family was turned away from the funeral of my sister's teacher (She died during the school day) because they weren't Mormon. This was some years ago, and I am sure that this policy hasn't changed.

I've seen enough evidence of major issues in Mormonism. Certainly, I will down down the harshness, but I will keep my criticisms.

369 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:08:20pm

re: #361 ralphieboy

I thought you were for the inclusive def, or am I missing...?

370 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:08:40pm

re: #346 Naso Tang

In all parts or just some?

Well, first off the LDS church never attacked the government. The US government sent an army out to Utah because non-Mormons were claiming we were in revolt. A deal was brokered by a friend of the LDS church, Thomas L Kane, before the army got to Utah: neither side would attack, and nobody did.

I'm not even sure what to say about the baby factory insult. I'm not sure he knows any LDS woman, but I am one, and that just isn't true. Mormon women have the size of family they want to have. I've never been told I can't use birth control. I know women with two kids, and nobody looks down on them. I know women with more than ten, and that's by choice. LDS women are encouraged to get an education. Utah granted women's suffrage in 1870 (the federal government took it away).

Pretty much he just repeated a bunch of Anti-Mormon talking points.

371 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:08:43pm

re: #360 Obdicut

Okay, that's way over the line. Furthermore, a lot of people call Catholicism polytheistic as well.

Mormons have significant doctrinal differences from mainstream Christianity, more so than Catholicism does from Protestantism. This isn't a statement about how Mormonism sucks and Mormons are bad, and I have no idea why you want to take it in that direction.

Do you buy the invisible golden plates stuff, and all that they started, or do you think Joseph Smith made it all up?

Just curious, because there can only be one of those two answers.

372 garhighway  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:08:52pm

re: #365 Decatur Deb

There is no governing body, and no ISO certification standard for Christianity. If some says they're a Christian, they're a Christian. FWIW

Actually, I think that's governed by the USGA. It's in the book between "play it as it lays" and the difference between red stakes and yellow stakes.

373 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:09:02pm

re: #351 Sergey Romanov

Interestingly, LDS has been moving closer to the traditional Christianity at least in image -

Yeah, but they kid no one.

374 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:10:00pm

re: #371 Naso Tang

All religions are based on some initial lies.

375 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:10:39pm

re: #359 Blizard

So, the bust can go on?

Assuming that Anon was not hired by or in prior collusion with the police to execute the hack, a highly unlikely scenario, then yes. Again, this is based on US law, though UK law generally has even fewer protections for defendants than we do.

376 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:10:48pm

re: #368 ProLifeLiberal

I remember the issue with Proposition 8 funding.

Also, my family was turned away from the funeral of my sister's teacher (She died during the school day) because they weren't Mormon. This was some years ago, and I am sure that this policy hasn't changed.

I've seen enough evidence of major issues in Mormonism. Certainly, I will down down the harshness, but I will keep my criticisms.

?????

What? I've never heard of non-Mormons being turned away from our funerals. My non-Mormon relatives certainly came to my grandfather's funeral, as well as his Greek Orthodox business partner and his family and other old friends and neighbors.

377 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:10:54pm

Dear all engaged in this Mormonism/Christian debate:

I'm gonna let you in on a little philosophical insight that might help.

We dont use words with clear definitions in every day language. There are no definitive necessary and sufficient requirements for the deployment of each word. Rather, these words for each of us are a collection of 'family resemblances' that form a general impression for usage.

We can make up specific, more clearly delinated definitions for particular purposes, but thats not how language usually works.

A lot of arguments hinge on the mistaken belief that there is a clear definition to a particular concept which excludes others.

SEE:
Wittgenstein's Family Resemblances and [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

378 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:12:24pm

re: #370 EmmmieG

And the Mountain Meadows Massacre was what exactly.

Or what about the repeated change that have occurred to the Book of Mormon?

Like one passage going from "White and Delightsome" to "Pure and Delightsome."

Or the Baptism of the Dead.

379 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:12:43pm

re: #377 Alexzander

Which is why I said Mormonism is a borderline case. It wouldn't be if there were clear generally accepted defs.

380 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:13:03pm

re: #376 EmmmieG

Happened in Colorado Springs. I still remember my mother and father seething over being turned away.

381 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:14:19pm

re: #369 Sergey Romanov

I thought you were for the inclusive def, or am I missing...?

Christians can claim whatever they want. They can claim I am not a Christian becauwse i do not accept the Nicene Creed. Let 'em. That is why our Constitution forbids the establishment of any church or any religious tests for political office.

382 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:15:35pm

re: #370 EmmmieG

I believe one reason the army was sent to Utah was to tell them that on the one hand they were not setting up an independent state, and secondly that if their god didn't tell them to drop the polygamy stuff all their lands would be taken from them. Luckily God told them to drop polygamy.

As to women's rights, I think one can argue that many of these criticisms can be applied to all religions in their many forms, so singling out Mormonism on women's rights is unfair since they are hardly alone in that regard.

383 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:15:40pm

re: #365 Decatur Deb

Same applies to all other religions?
The way I see it, there is a continuum of Christian beliefs, and as we get to the "edges", things become truly vague, there is a gray zone in which beliefs can be classified in different ways.

384 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:15:52pm

Oh dear. This thread is becoming something very ugly. And this is coming from an all-religion hating Atheophile like myself...

385 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:16:55pm

re: #343 goddamnedfrank

I'm sorry but you're wrong, that's not how it works here. "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree" only applies to evidence gathered illegally by police, not independent third parties.

Evidence unlawfully obtained from the defendant by a private person is admissible. The exclusionary rule is designed to protect privacy rights, with the Fourth Amendment applying specifically to government officials.[17]

1: This isn't an investigation, this is just supposition.
2: No it isn't.
1: An investigation is a scientific process. Supposition is just the automatic assumption of the guilt of the person in question.
2: ... It isn't.
1: It is!
2: *rings bell* Good evening!
1: What?
2: That's it; good evening.
1: I was just getting interested!
2: I'm sorry, but the five minutes is up. If you want me to go on investigating, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
1: But that was never five minutes just now.
2: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to go on investigating unless you've paid.
1: I just paid!
2: No you didn't.
1: Ah-hah, I've got you. If you're investigating, I must have paid.
2: Not necessarily - I could be investigating in my spare time, in which case arbitrarily different rules apply thanks to Hudson v. Michigan, whose insane opinion was unsurprisingly written by Antonin Scalia who really ought to be under medical supervision, but isn't.
1: Oh! I've had enough of this!
2: No you haven't.
1: *storms out, slams door*

386 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:17:09pm

re: #374 Sergey Romanov

All religions are based on some initial lies.

I think "lie" is incorrect. While individuals may lie, a belief is not a lie even if it is false.

387 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:18:27pm

re: #383 Sergey Romanov

Same applies to all other religions?
The way I see it, there is a continuum of Christian beliefs, and as we get to the "edges", things become truly vague, there is a gray zone in which beliefs can be classified in different ways.

I would apply it so, in my commie pinko agnostic way. Our opinions have no real force on this astral plane, however.

388 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:18:31pm

re: #383 Sergey Romanov

Before my religious crisis that cause me to convert, I was talking to a friend about religions, and I told her what Muslims believed.

She said that Islam was just a branch of Christianity.

I disagree, but Christianity and Islam are as closely linked as two religions can be.

389 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:20:12pm

re: #386 Naso Tang

I said initial lies. But I must amend my statement. It is necessary to add delusion to the mix. A prophet may as well believe that the voices that he hears inside his head are those of gods and angels.

390 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:20:30pm

re: #388 ProLifeLiberal

Before my religious crisis that cause me to convert, I was talking to a friend about religions, and I told her what Muslims believed.

She said that Islam was just a branch of Christianity.

I disagree, but Christianity and Islam are as closely linked as two religions can be.

Dante placed Mohammad in the part of the Inferno set aside for heretics.

391 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:20:56pm

Tunisia rocked by several protests

Youtube Video
392 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:20:57pm

re: #368 ProLifeLiberal

I remember the issue with Proposition 8 funding.

Trust me, I've got no love for the Mormon church, but "They fought a war with the US (more than a hundred years ago)" And "They're really polytheistic" isn't exactly compelling.

The Mormon Church's involvement in politics is highly reprehensible. It has nothing to do with the religion not being Christian, as can easily be seen by the mainstream Christian groups that are likewise highly involved in politics.

393 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:21:27pm

re: #390 Decatur Deb

Dante placed Mohammad in the part of the Inferno set aside for heretics.

He put a Pope in there too...

394 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:22:05pm

re: #378 ProLifeLiberal

And the Mountain Meadows Massacre was what exactly.

Or what about the repeated change that have occurred to the Book of Mormon?

Like one passage going from "White and Delightsome" to "Pure and Delightsome."

Or the Baptism of the Dead.

Here's the church's official statement on the MMM:
[Link: newsroom.lds.org...]

I don't know what you are talking about because I don't have every copy ever printed right here. I do know that at one point they realized some things had changed and changed a few things back. The original manuscript had no punctuation, so any punctuation changes are arbitrary.

That's Baptism FOR the dead. 1 Cor 15:29

395 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:22:13pm

re: #341 ProLifeLiberal

I put the Bahai Faith in there for good measure.

re: #333 wrenchwench

But there is no support for Polytheism in Abrahamic Theology. They lay outside of it.
.

People have said exactly that about Christianity in general, because of the theology of the Trinity.

I try to judge other faiths on acts, not theology I may or may not understand, and certainly have jack to say about.

396 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:22:14pm

re: #393 JasonA

He put a Pope in there too...

That was personal.

397 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:22:15pm

re: #393 JasonA

He put a Pope in there too...

And probably would've put Luther in there too had he lived to see him...

398 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:22:43pm

Wow, I assure anyone who cares that my post was purely academic, and I make no claim of being in charge of defining Christians/non-Christians.

(May His Noodly Appendage brush against you all and give you peace.)

399 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:22:59pm

re: #352 Naso Tang

When it comes to religion, the truth is what one preaches.

When it comes to religion, the truth is what you do.

400 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:23:11pm

re: #380 ProLifeLiberal

Happened in Colorado Springs. I still remember my mother and father seething over being turned away.

I am sure that within Mormons there are different levels of fundamentalism, just like all other religions.

401 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:24:26pm

re: #371 Naso Tang

Do you buy the invisible golden plates stuff, and all that they started, or do you think Joseph Smith made it all up?

Just curious, because there can only be one of those two answers.

Irrelevent to me.

402 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:25:02pm

re: #400 Naso Tang

I am sure that within Mormons there are different levels of fundamentalism, just like all other religions.


There are still Mormon "Old Believers" who practice polygamy.

Gimme dat ol' time religion...

403 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:25:19pm

re: #398 C1nnabar

Wow, I assure anyone who cares that my post was purely academic, and I make no claim of being in charge of defining Christians/non-Christians.

(May His Noodly Appendage brush against you all and give you peace.)

Then the "Sorry" I posted to Sergey goes to you.

/may I have a meatball?

404 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:25:44pm

re: #389 Sergey Romanov

I said initial lies. But I must amend my statement. It is necessary to add delusion to the mix. A prophet may as well believe that the voices that he hears inside his head are those of gods and angels.

What I said; I think.

405 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:25:46pm

re: #380 ProLifeLiberal

Happened in Colorado Springs. I still remember my mother and father seething over being turned away.

I have no idea what happened, except that I've never heard of that happening before.

406 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:27:53pm

re: #394 EmmmieG

Well, to be accurate, some significant changes were not backwards, but rather new ones indeed (like that oft quoted "white" to "pure"). The most significant changes were to the D&C, as it was edited by JS from the Book of Commandments. And yeah, I understand that there are explanations for this too (like, the changing revelation is really valid, the prophets aren't inerrant therefore the changes, etc.).

407 Blizard  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:28:52pm

Re: Mormons vs Christians. I grew up in West Texas in a very Protestant family. My great-grandad, a cotton farmer, may he rest in peace- he used to not let me play with the kids across the street because as he put it "they worship the devil". They were Mormon. Of course, we always were first in line at the local Luby's after church on Sunday. "Beat the Baptists" he used to say.

408 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:29:52pm

re: #394 EmmmieG

For some reason, my family has more Bibles than people.

1 Con 15:29 says:

Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

I see that something has been taken way out of context. In regards Christian theology, I distinctly remember that in a few cases, people went to heaven with out being baptized.

And let's not forget the incident(s) involving the Baptism for the Dead of Holocaust Victims.

409 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:30:33pm

OT:

I recommend this book.

It'll break your heart up.

[Link: www.barnesandnoble.com...]

410 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:30:43pm

re: #382 Naso Tang


As to women's rights, I think one can argue that many of these criticisms can be applied to all religions in their many forms, so singling out Mormonism on women's rights is unfair since they are hardly alone in that regard.

Boy howdy. If we're going to uncover the Sins of the Faiths, no one is wearing clean knickers.

411 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:31:56pm

re: #407 Blizard

'Beat the Baptists' implies that your father wasn't (isn't) Baptist. What was (is) he?

412 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:32:25pm

re: #410 SanFranciscoZionist

Boy howdy. If we're going to uncover the Sins of the Faiths, no one is wearing clean knickers.

Hey, now... let's not get into the underwear....

413 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:33:09pm

re: #408 ProLifeLiberal

And let's not forget the incident(s) involving the Baptism for the Dead of Holocaust Victims.

I never understood the brouhaha over this. It not only hurts no one, it's actually benevolent from the perspective of those who believe that these baptisms help people to go to highest levels of heaven. I, for one, couldn't care less if some rites are done on my name by any sect.

414 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:33:28pm

re: #408 ProLifeLiberal

As I understanding Jesus' teachings, one's salvation is entirely a matter between oneself and God, and whether one has been sprinkled with (or immersed in) water at some point in one's life is farily irrelevant.

415 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:33:35pm

re: #410 SanFranciscoZionist

Boy howdy. If we're going to uncover the Sins of the Faiths, no one is wearing clean knickers.

Agnostics have teflon gutchies, and a "less-holy-than-thou" attitude.

416 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:34:34pm

re: #413 Sergey Romanov

I think observant Jews find it insulting because of the importance of the 1st commandment in Judaism. It's like using images of Ghandi to sell Apple computers. At best, it's in terrible taste.

417 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:34:42pm

THe Church of Boxer Shorts maintains that those who wear briefs will never gain salvation.

418 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:34:55pm

re: #413 Sergey Romanov

I never understood the brouhaha over this. It not only hurts no one, it's actually benevolent from the perspective of those who believe that these baptisms help people to go to highest levels of heaven. I, for one, couldn't care less if some rites are done on my name by any sect.

The church is doing its best to keep people from doing that.

419 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:36:00pm

Sun's down--time to mow. BBL

420 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:36:02pm

re: #416 Obdicut

Exactly. Roman Catholic Church is also blocking Mormon access to records.

Though Catholicism has its difficulties (Priest-y things).

421 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:36:50pm

re: #416 Obdicut

But it's the true instance of "sticks and stones". And it wasn't like advertised or something, it was done discreetly. I also don't see how it clashes with the 1st cmdt. It's Mormons who are doing things, this doesn't apply to the names.

422 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:37:13pm

re: #418 EmmmieG

I think what this is showing is how far Mormonism still is outside the mainstream of most people's understanding in the US. Sadly, the Mormon Church's involvement in Prop 8 and elsewhere is going to form a large part of what a lot of people know about Mormonism. The church really did its members a huge disservice there (not to matter, you know, gay people).

I doubt a high percentage of Americans could at all accurately describe basic tenets of Mormons.

423 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:38:07pm

creepiest thread ever

424 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:38:49pm

re: #422 Obdicut

I doubt a high percentage of Americans could at all accurately describe basic tenets of Mormons.

Yeah, and the percentage has been declining ever since the Donnie and Marie Show was cancelled.

425 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:40:55pm

re: #422 Obdicut

I admit a fair amount of my knowledge comes from a blog I have read from a former Mormon about her experiences, and looking back now.

Which led me to other sites.

426 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:41:28pm

re: #421 Sergey Romanov


I also don't see how it clashes with the 1st cmdt. It's Mormons who are doing things, this doesn't apply to the names.

It's seen as an attempt to erase the Jewishness of the person, and Jews are highly sensitive to that. I don't think observant Jews actually feel like it changes anything, at all, but that it is an actual attempt to. That those who do it feel it's meaningful is why Jews have a problem with it.

427 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:43:18pm

re: #425 ProLifeLiberal

I admit a fair amount of my knowledge comes from a blog I have read from a former Mormon about her experiences, and looking back now.

Which led me to other sites.

Have you ever tried asking an actual Mormon?

Today I took The Princess (I call her that because her middle name is Sarah, actually) to the podiatrist.

Online there are several scathing reviews about how rude and arrogant and awful the man is.

He was polite, professional, and did his job. I'm now wondering what went on in the first lady's appointment, because it really didn't match my experience.

428 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:43:22pm

re: #426 Obdicut

It's seen as an attempt to erase the Jewishness of the person, and Jews are highly sensitive to that. I don't think observant Jews actually feel like it changes anything, at all, but that it is an actual attempt to. That those who do it feel it's meaningful is why Jews have a problem with it.

And anything touching on the Holocaust is likely to arouse strong reactions.

429 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:45:47pm

re: #427 EmmmieG

Haven't had the opportunity.

However, Proposition 8 has given me an unfavorable opinion of the faith. It's half-assed attempts at reconciliation and apology aren't enough.

430 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:46:26pm

re: #429 ProLifeLiberal

Should we judge Islam only by Islamic theocracies?

431 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:47:13pm

re: #394 EmmmieG

The original manuscript had no punctuation, so any punctuation changes are arbitrary.

As is every revealed sacred document.

The arbitrary words of bigoted men.

432 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:47:23pm

re: #429 ProLifeLiberal

Haven't had the opportunity.

However, Proposition 8 has given me an unfavorable opinion of the faith. It's half-assed attempts at reconciliation and apology aren't enough.

forgive and forget, you will be less tormented

433 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:47:35pm

re: #426 Obdicut

It's seen as an attempt to erase the Jewishness of the person, and Jews are highly sensitive to that. I don't think observant Jews actually feel like it changes anything, at all, but that it is an actual attempt to. That those who do it feel it's meaningful is why Jews have a problem with it.

It's saying that someone's ancestor wasn't good enough the way they lived, and needed "perfecting" as Ann Coulter would say. It's a highly insulting thing to do.

434 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:48:52pm

re: #433 goddamnedfrank

Well, it's not like their opinion of them unbaptized would be any better, it's just airing it in public in a rather crass way.

Anyway, it's hardly a really important issue.

435 Blizard  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:49:15pm

re: #411 ProLifeLiberal

'Beat the Baptists' implies that your father wasn't (isn't) Baptist. What was (is) he?

What? My father has nothing to do with what I posted.

436 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:49:35pm

re: #433 goddamnedfrank

It's saying that someone's ancestor wasn't good enough the way they lived, and needed "perfecting" as Ann Coulter would say. It's a highly insulting thing to do.

Insulting and extremely bigoted, elitist, and exclusionist.

But they're the ones oppressed, misunderstood, and held back by everyone. Bollocks.

437 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:49:51pm

lulzsec has hacked news international as well

438 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:50:11pm

re: #430 Sergey Romanov

True, I see your point.

However, the Muslims my age I have met tend to be (with one glaring exception) fairly Liberal.

I got one of them grumpy at me for saying being Gay was Genetic in an extremely flawed way.

439 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:50:58pm

re: #437 SpaceJesus

Oh, News Corp is in more trouble than they can imagine.

We need a trollface or something here to explain the situation. Only fitting.

440 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:52:10pm

Man, Tweety put the wood to Norquist, and Norquist came off looking like the dumb extremist he is.

441 Blizard  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:52:29pm

re: #435 Blizard

Church of Christ

442 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:52:43pm

re: #419 Decatur Deb

Sun's down--time to mow. BBL

What religion is that?

443 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:53:08pm

re: #437 SpaceJesus

lulzsec has hacked news international as well

I think this whole thing really shows how infantile lulzsec is.

Did they expose this? Did they break this story?

No, the story came about through rather traditional means.

They're just screwing around. It's a sideshow.

444 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:54:05pm

re: #442 wrenchwench

The Religion of "Get the Grass Mowed to avoid Grumpy Neighbors".

It's part of the "Don't Want to be Beat" family of religions. :P

445 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:54:36pm

re: #438 ProLifeLiberal

As I've said here before, I view the hierarchy negatively. But I've been reading up on LDS beliefs/history from different sources (official, critical, apologetic, anti-, liberal, conservative, primary) since around 2001, since it's a fascinating case of an origination of a new religion with its own miracle claims, which provides a model of how a religion may arise at all. And during this "research" I've met several pairs of missionaries in the beginning of 2000s, as well as Russian converts. I must say that as people average Mormons leave a very good impression.

446 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:55:00pm

Video of Matthews administering the rhetorical beatdown to Norquist

447 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:55:25pm

well, looks like the admins for the sun and news international yanked the power plugs on their servers.

448 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:55:29pm

re: #410 SanFranciscoZionist

Boy howdy. If we're going to uncover the Sins of the Faiths, no one is wearing clean knickers.

Although, few religions dream up entire rituals around their knickers.

449 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:55:42pm

re: #445 Sergey Romanov

I am at a loss to explain the attitudes of the Mormon church, given how nice, sweet, and liberal (in the nicest sense) the Mormons I've met have been.

450 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:55:51pm

I've known two Mormons in my life, sisters...they were both excellent skiiers, loved to gab, flirt and have fun...my highest compliment was that I wanted to screw both of them...terrific girls...what more is there?...theology is the Original Dead End

451 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:56:10pm

re: #448 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Although, few religions dream up entire rituals around their knickers.

I tried once, but the ladies weren't buying it...

452 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:56:20pm

re: #450 albusteve

Steve, that's a post for the ages.

453 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:56:33pm

re: #430 Sergey Romanov

Should we judge Islam only by Islamic theocracies?


Their mullahs will be the first ones to tell you that all other Muslim states are not truly Muslim.

454 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:56:45pm

re: #442 wrenchwench

What religion is that?

Church of the Manicured Lawn....there are millions of these nutters

455 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:56:56pm

re: #445 Sergey Romanov

I'll throttle down on the arguments then. I'll give them a chance.

456 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:57:47pm

i like how mormons like to around america fabricating archaeological sites in order to justify what is possible the craziest story of all time.

457 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:57:58pm

re: #442 wrenchwench

What religion is that?


In the holy month of Mowramadan it is fobidden to do yardwork during daylight hours...

458 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:58:10pm

re: #455 ProLifeLiberal

I'll throttle down on the arguments then. I'll give them a chance.

Nobody should be judged and condemned on hearsay.

459 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:58:23pm

re: #434 Obdicut

Well, it's not like their opinion of them unbaptized would be any better, it's just airing it in public in a rather crass way.

Anyway, it's hardly a really important issue.

It does raise an interesting theological question though, what's the point of living according to Mormon scripture if the Church is willing to come along decades later and retroactively rubber stamp everyone past the Pearly Gates?

460 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:58:36pm

re: #451 JasonA

I tried once, but the ladies weren't buying it...

Now you know why your mom was always on your ass about leaving the house wearing clean underwear.

461 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:58:38pm

*to go around

462 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:59:27pm

re: #456 SpaceJesus

You mean the Exodus from Egypt story? Oh wait, Mormons, yes.

/

463 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 3:59:52pm

following lulzsec on twitter and all this news, and talk about all this news is getting hard.

464 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:00:13pm

re: #459 goddamnedfrank

It does raise an interesting theological question though, what's the point of living according to Mormon scripture if the Church is willing to come along decades later and retroactively rubber stamp everyone past the Pearly Gates?

Oh, look: Jesus has your answer:

re: #461 SpaceJesus

*to go around

465 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:00:28pm

re: #458 wrenchwench

I guess I should realize that myself.

Considering the fact that a fair number of Mormons can to the defense of the Lower Manhattan Community Center.

466 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:01:12pm

re: #462 Sergey Romanov

yeah, that's a good runner-up for craziest lie ever told as well. christians who claim to have found noah's ark in some mountain in turkey are close up there too.

467 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:01:32pm

re: #450 albusteve

I've known two Mormons in my life, sisters...they were both excellent skiiers, loved to gab, flirt and have fun...my highest compliment was that I wanted to screw both of them...terrific girls...what more is there?...theology is the Original Dead End

Lol! Some guys are ready to screw anything in a skirt (gender regardless), and would screw a beehive if it wouldn't land them in the hospital. How is that a compliment?

468 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:02:08pm

re: #466 SpaceJesus

Well, those were exposed by fellow creationists, if memory serves me well.

469 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:02:18pm

re: #467 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

wasn't the symbol for the mormon church a beehive?

470 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:02:18pm

re: #459 goddamnedfrank

...it's complicated. Since we have at least one Real Mormon, I won't stick my non-noodly appendage into that particular plate of spaghetti.

471 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:02:28pm

re: #466 SpaceJesus

yeah, that's a good runner-up for craziest lie ever told as well. christians who claim to have found noah's ark in some mountain in turkey are close up there too.

L. Ron Hubbard laughs at you from his spacefaring DC-8.

472 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:02:33pm

re: #449 Obdicut

I am at a loss to explain the attitudes of the Mormon church, given how nice, sweet, and liberal (in the nicest sense) the Mormons I've met have been.

A religion is more than its dogmas and holy scriptures: it is the sum of the people who follow it.

That point is lost on bigots like Herman Cain and Pam Geller regarding Islam, and lost on a lot of other folks regarding other faiths than their own.

473 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:03:49pm

re: #471 goddamnedfrank


he's not laughing at me, we're just chilling right now. he says hi

474 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:04:08pm

re: #466 SpaceJesus

Besides, there is no way an ark of that size could have been anywhere near possible.

475 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:04:22pm

re: #459 goddamnedfrank

It does raise an interesting theological question though, what's the point of living according to Mormon scripture if the Church is willing to come along decades later and retroactively rubber stamp everyone past the Pearly Gates?

Slacktivist has an interesting take on how this policy affects the living. It's long, but a worthy read. [Link: slacktivist.typepad.com...]

We can't ask the people in the Quaker family records what they want. Thus, when it comes to the Quaker family records, I feel responsible to honor their legacy and err on the side of respecting their choices in life. Lou feels a similar responsibility to their legacy, but in a completely different manner. Yes, these people are many years dead, but they felt so strongly about their beliefs that many of them moved to wilderness half-way around the planet so they could practice in peace. When Lou and I talked about my partner's wishes, she argues from a Pascal's Wager perspective, only more encompassing.

Quakers don't accept Pascal's Wager; we consider it to be a violation of the Testimony of Integrity -- denying the internal light of truth for momentary, mortal doubt. Lou and I also talked about it from the rationalist perspective -- since my partner and I don't think we have souls, what does it matter to us? Well, it matters for the same reason we have made wills. Our lives and our faiths are our decisions, to be respected and honored while we live and after we die. If we have souls, then we have the right to dispose of them as we will dispose of our fortunes, furniture and forms. A posthumous, vicarious baptism strips our volition from us. In a lot of things, I can be tolerant of my sister's faith, but when her faith steps on other people's volition, it's no longer a case of tolerance.

More in link.

476 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:05:00pm

re: #474 ProLifeLiberal


yeah, pretty much every religion is bananas

477 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:05:03pm

re: #466 SpaceJesus

yeah, that's a good runner-up for craziest lie ever told as well. christians who claim to have found noah's ark in some mountain in turkey are close up there too.

And Catholic theologians speculated that the Holy Virgin must've been impregnated through her ear canal and had a hatch in her belly to permit her to conceive and bear a child without losing her virginity...

478 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:06:11pm

re: #474 ProLifeLiberal

Besides, there is no way an ark of that size could have been anywhere near possible.

If only it were big enough to get those dinosaurs on board...

479 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:06:45pm

re: #476 SpaceJesus

yeah, pretty much every religion is bananas

Every religion involves a leap of faith, what seems a jump across a puddle to some is a vault into a chasm to others.

480 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:07:19pm

re: #474 ProLifeLiberal

Besides, there is no way an ark of that size could have been anywhere near possible.

Noah used TARDIS technology, it was bigger on the inside.

481 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:07:23pm

re: #474 ProLifeLiberal

Besides, there is no way an ark of that size could have been anywhere near possible.

I like the Pillar of Salt gig myself

482 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:08:24pm

re: #478 JasonA

This reminds me: [Link: pandasthumb.org...]

483 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:08:32pm

re: #444 ProLifeLiberal

The Religion of "Get the Grass Mowed to avoid Grumpy Neighbors".

It's part of the "Don't Want to be Beat" family of religions. :P

We always used to say that my grandfather regarded keeping a nice lawn as one of those obligations laid down on humanity by God.

He considered my parents to be real heathens, as far as yardwork went.

484 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:08:47pm

re: #469 SpaceJesus

wasn't the symbol for the mormon church a beehive?

Busy little bees for the Lord. /eyeroll

485 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:08:56pm

re: #477 ralphieboy

haha, isn't the whole virginity thing just a mistranslation that that greeks did?

486 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:09:07pm

re: #448 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Although, few religions dream up entire rituals around their knickers.

Since I belong to one of them, I can hardly comment.

487 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:09:18pm

re: #477 ralphieboy

Holy. Shit.

That sounds so bizarre, I need a link.

re: #478 JasonA

Then we'd all be dead. :P

re: #480 goddamnedfrank

Noah's a Time Lord!!!!

488 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:09:28pm

re: #480 goddamnedfrank

Noah used TARDIS technology, it was bigger on the inside.

I think of Noah's ark as a badly thought out metaphor for natural selection. After all, Noah, didn't just bring pairs of animals on board, but whole groups of them. The whole story is just about the natural bottlenecking that occurred in animal populations during the last glacial period.

The ark is the Earth, man!

489 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:10:04pm

re: #485 SpaceJesus

LXX was translated by Alexandrian Jews.

490 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:10:50pm

re: #488 Obdicut


and the story of jonah is just a metaphor for how we all came from the sea at one point or something

491 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:11:41pm

re: #490 SpaceJesus

and the story of jonah is just a metaphor for how we all came from the sea at one point or something

I think it was a metaphor for eating bad clams.

492 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:11:51pm

re: #486 SanFranciscoZionist

Since I belong to one of them, I can hardly comment.

Yeah, there are a few.

493 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:12:43pm

re: #456 SpaceJesus

i like how mormons like to around america fabricating archaeological sites in order to justify what is possible the craziest story of all time.

Getting nervous about that positive karma?

494 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:13:36pm

re: #488 Obdicut

The ark is the Earth, man!

Dude, have you ever read Genesis ... on weed?!?

Youtube Video
495 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:14:24pm

re: #493 reine.de.tout

By the way, if you didn't see it, RanchTooth made a complete and abject apology to you on that cat page you put up.

496 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:14:37pm

re: #474 ProLifeLiberal

Besides, there is no way an ark of that size could have been anywhere near possible.

Nor, probably, would it have been cubical, which is what the text appears to be describing.

497 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:15:16pm

re: #495 Obdicut

By the way, if you didn't see it, RanchTooth made a complete and abject apology to you on that cat page you put up.

I did see it, but thanks for the heads-up anyway, Obdi.

498 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:15:27pm

re: #488 Obdicut

I think there is an impetus for the flood story though. Don't know what it is (Black Sea Flood, oceanic meteor strike, etc.), but I would think something mighty special happened.

499 AK-47%  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:16:27pm

re: #487 ProLifeLiberal

I recall hearing a broadcast on German raion on the topic and even seeing an illustration of the Holy Ghost inserting an impregnating device into Mary's ear.

Point is, they took this minor and relatively irrelevant aspect of Christ's provenance and turned it into a major obsession.

500 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:17:37pm

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

501 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:18:01pm

re: #499 ralphieboy

I recall hearing a broadcast on German raion on the topic and even seeing an illustration of the Holy Ghost inserting an impregnating device into Mary's ear.

Point is, they took this minor and relatively irrelevant aspect of Christ's provenance and turned it into a major obsession.

Well, they had to come up with some way of justifying continued pagan belief of deities screwing humans. Ear impregnation is as valid as any, I guess.

502 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:18:04pm

re: #499 ralphieboy

Batshit Insane:

This is the Definition of.

503 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:18:31pm

re: #501 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I'm now reminded of that one episode of Family Guy.

504 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:21:28pm

re: #485 SpaceJesus

haha, isn't the whole virginity thing just a mistranslation that that greeks did?

You should know: it's about your birth.

Isaiah 7 reads in part Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: An 'almah' will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.

'Almah' goes into Greek as 'parthenos'--'virgin'--however the Hebrew word for virgin is 'b'tulah'. 'Almah' simply means 'a young woman' who might be married and a mother.

Christians have traditionally seen the verse as one of those prefacing Christ's birth, and Mary's virginity. Jews tend to read it in the context of Isaiah's prophecy to King Ahaz--essentially, "A young woman will have a child, and before he is able to understand wright and wrong, the Assyrians will destroy your kingdom. Shape up in the eyes of the Lord."

It's one of those MAJOR interpretation issues.

505 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:21:32pm

Meanwhile, in Libya:

The regime in Tripoli denied Brega had fallen, with spokesman Moussa Ibrahim telling a CNN reporter, "We will turn Brega into hell. We will not give it up."

Our problems are minor in comparison (Except the Debt Ceiling). Let's not forget that.

506 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:22:21pm

re: #488 Obdicut

I think of Noah's ark as a badly thought out metaphor for natural selection. After all, Noah, didn't just bring pairs of animals on board, but whole groups of them. The whole story is just about the natural bottlenecking that occurred in animal populations during the last glacial period.

The ark is the Earth, man!

That makes quite a bit of sense, actually. I have a theory myself about the expulsion from Eden reflecting the coming of the Ice Age.

Ludwig's not buying it.

507 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:22:42pm

re: #490 SpaceJesus

and the story of jonah is just a metaphor for how we all came from the sea at one point or something

I love Jonah. Got to say.

508 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:22:45pm

re: #501 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Speaking an ex-Catholic son of two people who both study Catholic apologetics, that's the first time I've ever heard of that. I don't think that's so mainstream.

509 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:23:27pm

re: #494 goddamnedfrank

Dude, have you ever read Genesis ... on weed?!?

[Video]

My husband, who was raised very secular, tried to read the Bible a while back. He got frustrated with the way the patriarchs keep trying to pass off their wives as their sisters, and IIRC, never made it out of Genesis.

510 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:23:33pm

re: #506 SanFranciscoZionist

That makes quite a bit of sense, actually. I have a theory myself about the expulsion from Eden reflecting the coming of the Ice Age.

Ludwig's not buying it.

because he didn't think of it...hahaha!

511 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:24:24pm

re: #504 SanFranciscoZionist

You should know: it's about your birth.

Isaiah 7 reads in part Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: An 'almah' will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.

'Almah' goes into Greek as 'parthenos'--'virgin'--however the Hebrew word for virgin is 'b'tulah'. 'Almah' simply means 'a young woman' who might be married and a mother.

Christians have traditionally seen the verse as one of those prefacing Christ's birth, and Mary's virginity. Jews tend to read it in the context of Isaiah's prophecy to King Ahaz--essentially, "A young woman will have a child, and before he is able to understand wright and wrong, the Assyrians will destroy your kingdom. Shape up in the eyes of the Lord."

It's one of those MAJOR interpretation issues.

I actually think problems with the interpretation of "yom" have caused more problems.

512 Digital Display  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:24:30pm

re: #498 ProLifeLiberal

I think there is an impetus for the flood story though. Don't know what it is (Black Sea Flood, oceanic meteor strike, etc.), but I would think something mighty special happened.

Well If the flood covered the whole earth in water...Where did all the water go? Did it magically disappear?

513 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:25:40pm

re: #512 HoosierHoops

Well If the flood covered the whole earth in water...Where did all the water go? Did it magically disappear?

yes...to be resurrected at a later date

514 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:27:43pm

re: #511 EmmmieG

I actually think problems with the interpretation of "yom" have caused more problems.

In terms of a literal reading of creation? Probably.

God, I love Isaiah when he gets going:

In that day the LORD will whistle for flies from the Nile delta in Egypt and for bees from the land of Assyria. They will all come and settle in the steep ravines and in the crevices in the rocks, on all the thornbushes and at all the water holes. In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the Euphrates River—the king of Assyria—to shave your head and private parts, and to cut off your beard also.

515 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:27:51pm

re: #508 Obdicut

Speaking an ex-Catholic son of two people who both study Catholic apologetics, that's the first time I've ever heard of that. I don't think that's so mainstream.

It's not. But the general idea of the virgin birth is.

516 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:28:15pm

re: #399 SanFranciscoZionist

When it comes to religion, the truth is what you do.

Nice turn of phrase but, like my version, subjective.

517 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:28:29pm

re: #512 HoosierHoops

Well If the flood covered the whole earth in water...Where did all the water go? Did it magically disappear?

Ah, Biblical scholars have spent LOTS of time on that one. It's led to some extremely fun ideas.

518 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:29:03pm

re: #517 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah, Biblical scholars have spent LOTS of time on that one. It's led to some extremely fun ideas.

are they paid?

519 Digital Display  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:29:13pm

re: #513 albusteve

yes...to be resurrected at a later date

After the flood there was a rainbow.. The first time in 13.7 Billion years that light refracted through water vapor at 23.5 degrees to create a rainbow...You know...I don't put my Faith in Man's ignorance to prove God.

520 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:29:23pm

re: #516 Naso Tang

Nice turn of phrase but, like my version, subjective.

True. I just don't see the point in criticizing other people's theology. It's not like they're going to change it for my sake.

521 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:30:32pm

re: #515 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

It's not. But the general idea of the virgin birth is.

I don't really find any particular miracles more or less incredible than any other ones. Some are more entertaining.

522 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:31:38pm

Tripoli is now in state of near-total blackout.

re: #512 HoosierHoops

I mean in the same why as the idea that there is something under here that caused this story. A cataclysmic disaster on a more local scale.

523 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:31:59pm

re: #520 SanFranciscoZionist

True. I just don't see the point in criticizing other people's theology. It's not like they're going to change it for my sake.

I'm sure nobody has ever pointed out to a religious person before that their beliefs depend on faith rather than pure logic. It's a new one.

524 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:32:28pm

re: #519 HoosierHoops

After the flood there was a rainbow.. The first time in 13.7 Billion years that light refracted through water vapor at 23.5 degrees to create a rainbow...You know...I don't put my Faith in Man's ignorance to prove God.

But it doesn't say in the text that there'd never been a rainbow before--only that it became a symbol at that point.

In the Gilgamesh text, the equivalent of that is Ishtar raising a lapis lazuli necklace into the sky and swearing on it not to let destruction come on the Earth again. I don't know if that would have been seen as a rainbow image or not, but it seems likely to me.

525 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:33:03pm

re: #512 HoosierHoops

Well If the flood covered the whole earth in water...Where did all the water go? Did it magically disappear?

Simple, back then the earth was a perfect, impermeable sphere. The porosity of the earth along with all of the mountains and valleys, lakes, ocean basins, islands and trenches formed in those 40 days & nights.

Duh.

526 windsagio  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:34:24pm

re: #521 Obdicut

I don't really find any particular miracles more or less incredible than any other ones. Some are more entertaining.

Quoted for truth :p

That's why they're miracles!

I like 'em zany myself. Like "Spinning wheels in the sky that people will later say was totally a UFO".

527 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:34:29pm

re: #525 goddamnedfrank

Simple, back then the earth was a perfect, impermeable sphere. The porosity of the earth along with all of the mountains and valleys, lakes, ocean basins, islands and trenches formed in those 40 days & nights.

Duh.

pass the bong

528 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:34:53pm
'Almah' goes into Greek as 'parthenos'--'virgin'--however the Hebrew word for virgin is 'b'tulah'. 'Almah' simply means 'a young woman' who might be married and a mother.


Interesting. Parthenos. Kind of like the Parthenon. Think maybe the Greek "translators" were trying to make a point to their fellow Greeks that Mary = Athena?

529 windsagio  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:35:23pm

re: #512 HoosierHoops

It froze! Although I wonder what % of land would be actually covered if the ice caps and glaciers all melted.

530 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:36:03pm

re: #521 Obdicut

I don't really find any particular miracles more or less incredible than any other ones. Some are more entertaining.

Everybody likes the water into wine one. Well, I guess except the Mormons and the Baptists lol

531 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:36:17pm

re: #521 Obdicut

I don't really find any particular miracles more or less incredible than any other ones. Some are more entertaining.

Apparently there is an Israeli rock group called "Lo Dubim" (no bears).

The expression "Lo dubim v'lo yaar" in Hebrew is used to mean 'no such thing', or 'it's groundless'. Literally it means 'no bears and no forest', and derives from a Talmudic argument about exactly what the miracle is supposed to be when all those bears eat up the children who mock Elisha's baldness.

532 Blizard  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:36:58pm

Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons?

533 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:37:16pm

re: #528 SpaceJesus

Interesting. Parthenos. Kind of like the Parthenon. Think maybe the Greek "translators" were trying to make a point to their fellow Greeks that Mary = Athena?

Probably more like Venus/mother goddess.

534 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:37:56pm

re: #533 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

isn't athena the one in the parthenon tho?

535 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:38:13pm

re: #529 windsagio

It froze! Although I wonder what % of land would be actually covered if the ice caps and glaciers all melted.

well Portland will surly drown, and if you survive, you'll likely end up in DeMoins

536 Digital Display  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:38:22pm

re: #532 Blizard

Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons?

No..But I want my missing Rib back.. Dang woman!
/I am missing one rib right?

537 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:39:06pm

re: #534 SpaceJesus

isn't athena the one in the parthenon tho?

Yeah, they were eager to appropriate as many goddesses as possible, I suppose.

538 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:40:27pm

re: #536 HoosierHoops

No..But I want my missing Rib back.. Dang woman!
/I am missing one rib right?

This thing eated it.

539 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:40:36pm

LOL!...what a life, when Family Guy has as much authenticity as the Bible...friggin crackpots rule

540 windsagio  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:40:41pm

re: #535 albusteve

My family owns a lake back in the high desert. Don't worry about me :D

541 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:41:47pm

re: #401 SanFranciscoZionist

Irrelevent to me.

Interesting answer. As I read it, you think the dogma is meaningless and no more than a framework without significance in itself.

I suppose we are left with compliance to the Golden Rule to judge. If so, name one religion that gets a pass.

542 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:41:59pm

re: #540 windsagio

My family owns a lake back in the high desert. Don't worry about me :D

I don't

543 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:42:30pm

Standard & Poor's warns of possible News Corp. downgrade

With fallout from the News of the World phone hacking scandal far from contained, corporate ratings firm Standard & Poor's on Monday said that it was putting Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. on its "CreditWatch" list, which could result in a possible credit downgrade.

544 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:42:40pm

re: #538 JasonA

Argh! Why did I click that?!

545 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:43:24pm

re: #544 ProLifeLiberal

Argh! Why did I click that?!

A question asked by millions of netizens each and every day...

546 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:43:33pm

re: #543 Killgore Trout

Standard & Poor's warns of possible News Corp. downgrade

good company with the US govt

547 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:44:09pm

re: #520 SanFranciscoZionist

True. I just don't see the point in criticizing other people's theology. It's not like they're going to change it for my sake.

I do not criticize to effect change, just to satisfy my sense of truth. Do you avoid criticizing a bad movie because it won't change it?

548 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:44:42pm

re: #449 Obdicut

I am at a loss to explain the attitudes of the Mormon church, given how nice, sweet, and liberal (in the nicest sense) the Mormons I've met have been.

Over the weekend, I attended my family reunion (AKA "annual reminder of why we live so far from each other) and the LDS branch showed up. Aunt, uncle, their nine kids, eight spouses (one spouse has his own business) 23 grandkids.

Was such a wholesome, happy group it made me want to barf!

It was like a freakin' Osmond Family Christmas special, except the smiles were bigger. Really. Was sickeningly sweet.

549 Interesting Times  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:45:29pm

re: #538 JasonA

This thing eated it.

Just the sort of thing to make one grateful that certain creatures can't be seen with the naked eye. Evolutionary mercy on our eyes?

550 windsagio  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:45:50pm

OH total aside, everybody take 5 minutes out to play this. Kind of a stunning game experience.

[Link: www.rathergood.com...]

551 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:47:12pm

re: #528 SpaceJesus

Interesting. Parthenos. Kind of like the Parthenon. Think maybe the Greek "translators" were trying to make a point to their fellow Greeks that Mary = Athena?

Don't know--it might have to do with something like that. There was a period when Christians were actively beginning use imagery and such from various popular Roman faiths.

552 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:47:38pm

re: #548 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was such a wholesome, happy group it made me want to barf!

It was like a freakin' Osmond Family Christmas special, except the smiles were bigger. Really. Was sickeningly sweet.


I always found their happiness and positive family attitude kinda nice. And that's from a curmudgeon who can't stand families and kids.

553 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:47:55pm

re: #550 windsagio

OH total aside, everybody take 5 minutes out to play this. Kind of a stunning game experience.

[Link: www.rathergood.com...]

are you ever going to grow up?...good grief...makes me wonder if an age restriction is in order here

554 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:49:11pm

re: #552 Killgore Trout

I always found their happiness and positive family attitude kinda nice. And that's from a curmudgeon who can't stand families and kids.

right...what ever happened to flexibility?

555 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:50:00pm

re: #538 JasonA

This thing eated it.

God? Explain THAT one.

556 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:50:06pm

re: #548 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Funny you should say that. My likely future son in law is an atheist (not a nasty one like me), with Mormon family. He is not shunned and on a recent family visit he described something very similar after a couple of days in that environment.

For the record, I know when to keep my mouth shut when not here.

557 windsagio  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:50:31pm

re: #553 albusteve

Its an example of art transcending the idea of 'games'. It's a really amazing accomplishment when you look at it.

558 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:51:44pm

re: #557 windsagio

Kinda reminded me of Minecraft.

559 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:51:53pm

re: #550 windsagio

You'll be proud. I played! Till I got stuck.

560 windsagio  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:53:08pm

re: #559 Stanley Sea

I'm just glad to have somebody experience it :D Some of the parts are more than a little tricky.

561 austin_blue  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:53:15pm

Hi, Scaly Ones! Hope everyone is well this fine drought-ridden way too hot day.

Oh, and I note the the WSJ is blaming all of the "troubles" on the NYT.

Shocka!

(Nine minutes on the NYT X-word today, btw. It *is* Monday, after all.)

562 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:53:43pm

I say live and let live...if someone else's theological instinct disturbs you, then you have a problem, and the way to deal with it is not to attack your source of irritation...rise above it

563 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:54:15pm

re: #556 Naso Tang

For the record, I know when to keep my mouth shut when not here.

Why are we the lucky ones?

564 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:55:25pm

re: #562 albusteve

...rise above it

Is one allowed to tell anyone else that one is above it?

565 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:55:34pm

re: #560 windsagio

I'm just glad to have somebody experience it :D Some of the parts are more than a little tricky.

It took a little getting used to, but I managed to wander around until I got eated, or something.

566 windsagio  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:55:52pm

re: #565 makeitstop

threw yourself into the sun!

567 windsagio  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:56:03pm

oops, spoiler alert ><

568 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:56:27pm

re: #566 windsagio

threw yourself into the sun!

Is that what that was? :)

569 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:56:32pm

re: #563 wrenchwench

Why are we the lucky ones?

I think you meant that to be unlucky. Be honest now.

570 makeitstop  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:57:27pm

News International's site is still hosed. Do they pay their IT people over there?

571 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:57:29pm

re: #556 Naso Tang

I read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Krakauer; his description of Mormonism is very violent; completely unrelated to what I have seen.

All of my cousins (this family has seven girls and two boys) each of the girls is married to a man within two years (or so) of their age. None were married off at 12 to a fifty year old Church Elder.

The seven girls go to Vegas once a year for a girls weekend.

This family just blows "the narrative" out of the water.

572 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:57:35pm

re: #569 Naso Tang

I think you meant that to be unlucky. Be honest now.

It was the dreaded Untagged Sarc.

573 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:57:51pm

re: #564 Naso Tang

Is one allowed to tell anyone else that one is above it?

re: #564 Naso Tang

Is one allowed to tell anyone else that one is above it?

why would one need to?...security speaks for itself

574 windsagio  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:57:54pm

re: #562 albusteve

well it depends on the harm y'know? if Somebody's theological instinct tells them that taking their kids to the doctor is wrong and they should pray to heal them, its something to be displeased about.

575 windsagio  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 4:59:53pm

re: #571 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The big negative force in the modern LDS church is the heavy pressure to get married and start popping out babies as quickly as possible.

I know of several people who either took the first person to come along and ended up with quick messy divorces or had the joy of their fiance's not being willing to wait and marrying while they were on mission. It's kind of messed up.

576 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:00:05pm

re: #574 windsagio

well it depends on the harm y'know? if Somebody's theological instinct tells them that taking their kids to the doctor is wrong and they should pray to heal them, its something to be displeased about.

so what?...mind your own business...your mission is posting here, not saving the world

577 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:00:40pm

re: #550 windsagio

OH total aside, everybody take 5 minutes out to play this. Kind of a stunning game experience.

[Link: www.rathergood.com...]

Finished it. Quite creative. The music really made the game.

578 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:01:58pm

re: #528 SpaceJesus

Interesting. Parthenos. Kind of like the Parthenon. Think maybe the Greek "translators" were trying to make a point to their fellow Greeks that Mary = Athena?

I'd say definitely a coincidence. Athena is one of the three goddesses who were virgins (most places) in Greek mythology. And the Septuaguint was translated by Jews, around 250 B.D.

As far as I know, they didn't use "parthenos" to introduce the idea of virginity into their discourse, but because that word is as standard in Greek as alma is in Biblical Hebrew to describe a young woman. It happens to include the concept of virginity, which the original doesn't. Translation is hell.

579 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:04:02pm

re: #571 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I have read that too, and I think you are confusing the history and the politics with family culture.

If you set aside the nasty extremes, which all cultures have, the truth is that the Mormon narrative from the east coast to Utah is a fantastic tale of human endurance and accomplishment.

My fundamental problem with Mormonism is not the people but the fact that Joseph Smith was a well document con artist, right up there with L. Ron Hubbard, and they can't see it.

580 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:05:01pm

re: #572 wrenchwench

It was the dreaded Untagged Sarc.

Do you think I missed it? Be honest now :)

581 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:05:41pm

re: #534 SpaceJesus

isn't athena the one in the parthenon tho?

Yes. She's described as a virgin in Greek texts, like Hestia and Artemis.

Athena Parthenos is one of her epithets.

582 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:06:09pm

re: #579 Naso Tang

I have read that too, and I think you are confusing the history and the politics with family culture.

If you set aside the nasty extremes, which all cultures have, the truth is that the Mormon narrative from the east coast to Utah is a fantastic tale of human endurance and accomplishment.

My fundamental problem with Mormonism is not the people but the fact that Joseph Smith was a well document con artist, right up there with L. Ron Hubbard, and they can't see it.

Peter, Paul, Luke and John were all con artists as well...I don't give any of them a break

583 windsagio  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:07:23pm

you're really digging to get in a fight with somebody, aren't ya steve?

584 albusteve  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:10:48pm

re: #583 windsagio

you're really digging to get in a fight with somebody, aren't ya steve?

not at all...feeling insecure?
my credo is take care of yourself first, and when you become perfect you can indict others...until then, it's a shallow attempt at perfection at another's expense...you fail as often as the rest of us

585 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:13:15pm

re: #579 Naso Tang

I think I see the flaw in my thinking. I'm conflating the politics and the history with the people.

I'll try not to do that.

586 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:16:08pm

re: #548 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Over the weekend, I attended my family reunion (AKA "annual reminder of why we live so far from each other) and the LDS branch showed up. Aunt, uncle, their nine kids, eight spouses (one spouse has his own business) 23 grandkids.

Was such a wholesome, happy group it made me want to barf!

It was like a freakin' Osmond Family Christmas special, except the smiles were bigger. Really. Was sickeningly sweet.

Ugh, gag. Wholesome appearances often mask exterme pathologies. See that nasty bigot Ezra Taft Benson, George Rentboy Reckers and that f'ed up Real America town in Blue Velvet for more. /

587 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:18:11pm

re: #582 albusteve

Peter, Paul, Luke and John were all con artists as well...I don't give any of them a break

I'm not sure I agree with that, and unlike Smith we don't have any documentation of what their lives were really like, or how they came to religion. I suspect that like most people of the time had never questioned the existence of a god or gods.

Joseph Smith on the other hand deliberately invented all this stuff out of thin air, for personal power and gain. If he had simply said he had a vision, like countless prophets before him, one can give a pass on sincerity at least.

Inventing these plates (shades of the stone tablets of course) and a religion that is clearly a fake bunch of mumbo jumbo is not something one can do and believe it happened, and he was no schizophrenic.

588 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:18:40pm

re: #585 ProLifeLiberal

I think I see the flaw in my thinking. I'm conflating the politics and the history with the people.

I'll try not to do that.

Good sarc.

589 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:19:45pm

re: #588 Naso Tang

That's not Sarc.

590 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:20:59pm

re: #589 ProLifeLiberal

That's not Sarc.

My apologies.

591 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:29:48pm

re: #547 Naso Tang

I do not criticize to effect change, just to satisfy my sense of truth. Do you avoid criticizing a bad movie because it won't change it?

For me religion doesn't fall into that category. Not sure I can explain it right now, since I'm juggling paperwork, but to me it's not terribly important that I don't believe this or don't believe that in the realm of theology or religious history.

I probably shouldn't try to get in-depth now. Sorry, I think I may have given you this answer before. Catch me on a night when I've been drinking, and am not doing financial aid stuff.

592 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:36:11pm

re: #576 albusteve

so what?...mind your own business...your mission is posting here, not saving the world

What's your poison this evening?

593 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:38:00pm

Oh hell. Enough Romney basics. Moving onto Bachmann.

594 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:46:23pm

re: #448 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Although, few religions dream up entire rituals around their knickers.

The coolest nuns in the world are into knickers big time:

[Link: www.sainttheresecenter.org...]

595 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:55:59pm

re: #457 ralphieboy

In the holy month of Mowramadan it is fobidden to do yardwork during daylight hours...

If you're Irish and do yardwork in the full Alabama sun, all your theological questions will soon be answered.

596 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:57:22pm

re: #594 Decatur Deb

I never thought of that. Quite thoughtful.

597 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 5:59:25pm

re: #457 ralphieboy

In the holy month of Mowramadan it is fobidden to do yardwork during daylight hours...

I am told it is also forbidden on Sunday in German, if using machinery that might wake a neighbor sleeping off Saturday.

598 hugh59  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 8:17:56pm
It’s a very defensive piece, full of strange writing and non sequiturs

Yes, like much of the writing here.

599 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jul 18, 2011 10:05:25pm

re: #598 hugh59

LOL! Dead thread troll!


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