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1 Randall Gross  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:27:13am

It's a shock, but not at the same time.

2 McSpiff  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:28:06am

re: #1 Thanos

It's a shock, but not at the same time.

Shocking not surprising?

3 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:28:10am

re: #1 Thanos

It's a shock, but not at the same time.

Horribly sad though. What a loss.

4 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:29:35am

"curse" is a good word for it Charles.

The creative force is very powerful.

5 Randall Gross  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:29:37am

re: #3 iceweasel

Yeah, she could sing

6 Randall Gross  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:30:32am

For those unfamiliar

7 Ugly John  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:31:24am

Too often it seems that great artists are driven to create by the demons running loose in their heads. When they can't expel their nightmares onto the page or the stage or the screen; they try to drown them out with booze and drugs. Whatever comes for us after this life, I can only pray that Ms. Winehouse finds the rest there that she never found here.

8 Randall Gross  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:31:24am

re: #2 McSpiff

Yes, not really surprised, but it is shocking nonetheless.

9 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:31:48am

When I first learned that the little skinny white girl was Amy Winehouse, I was shocked.

I sincerely thought that voice on the radio came from some old Blue's singer who finally made the big time.

Her voice was soooo much older than she was.

10 Political Atheist  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:32:38am

I don't envy the life of a popular music artist. All to often the strains are too much. The talent often comes from hard places in the soul. Sometimes cathartic sometimes just deadly. The "I'm No Good" video posted downstairs was prophetic. I'll miss that voice.

11 Stanghazi  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:32:40am

re: #4 ggt

"curse" is a good word for it Charles.

The creative force is very powerful.

CharlesMBlow

Artists often live troubled lives. That's what makes their art so powerful. Trick is to stay this side of safe and sane.

12 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:33:26am

Excellent article on her here - bylined by AP, so it may be their canned obit for her.

[Link: www.npr.org...]

13 Lidane  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:34:15am

The 27 Club lives on. :(

Sad to see such a talent get taken down by her demons. RIP Amy.

14 Stanghazi  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:34:29am

Well, it's certainly taken over the twitter trends

#amywinehouse
#27club
#goplankintraffic
Tears Dry
Janis Joplin
Kurt Cobain
Lindsey Lohan
Rehab
Keith Richards
Brian Jones

Today I'm going to go plank in traffic.

15 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:38:33am

should've gone, gone gone.

sucks. loved her voice.

16 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:40:32am

RIP Amy
you crazy diamond

17 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:40:53am

re: #11 Stanley Sea

CharlesMBlow

Artists often live troubled lives. That's what makes their art so powerful. Trick is to stay this side of safe and sane.

I think it is the otherway around.

The art is so powerful, it leads to troubled lives.

18 engineer cat  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:42:48am

as far as i'm concerned, back to black is the greatest pop album in the past 25 years

she wrote all the songs herself, didn't she?

aleha ha-shalom, amy

19 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:43:17am

re: #14 Stanley Sea

It is planking, anyway? I heard my friends talk about it, but have no clue what it is.

20 Randall Gross  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:43:32am

Of course there's also that controversial Mel Gibson moment...

[Link: icydk.com...]

21 Political Atheist  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:44:11am

re: #19 ProLifeLiberal

It is planking, anyway? I heard my friends talk about it, but have no clue what it is.

22 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:44:28am

re: #5 Thanos

great album

23 Kid A  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:45:20am

Many, many artists have no concept of moderation. There's that line we toe every day; getting closer and closer to the edge. Some are able to pull back; must don't unfortunately.

24 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:45:33am

re: #19 ProLifeLiberal

It is planking, anyway? I heard my friends talk about it, but have no clue what it is.

The Plank is a yoga posture.

25 Randall Gross  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:46:23am

Try Owling

26 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:47:15am

re: #25 Thanos

Try Owling

Owling, I do not believe, is a yoga posture.

27 Political Atheist  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:48:17am

re: #25 Thanos

Try Owling

That's so last week! :-)

[Link: leisuredive.com...]

Image: index_HammockDive2.jpg

28 KingKenrod  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:48:52am

re: #21 Rightwingconspirator

[Video]

Real life imitates The Onion.

29 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:49:06am

re: #21 Rightwingconspirator

Thank god I don't follow trends.

30 Stanghazi  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:49:16am

re: #19 ProLifeLiberal

It is planking, anyway? I heard my friends talk about it, but have no clue what it is.

[Link: www.geekosystem.com...]

31 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:49:58am
32 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:51:27am

Iran's Nuclear Scientist killed.


An Iranian nuclear scientist has been shot dead outside his home in Tehran, Iranian media sources say.

The Isna news agency named him as Daryoush Rezaei, 35, adding that his wife was wounded. His identity has not been officially confirmed.

In 2010, nuclear scientist Massoud Ali Mohammadi was killed by a remote-controlled bomb in Tehran.

Iran blamed that attack on Israeli secret service Mossad. Israel has long warned about Iran's nuclear programme.

Some reports said the latest attack involved assailants on a motorcycle, but this has not been confirmed.

Isna said that Mr Rezaei was an expert with links to the Atomic Energy Organisation of Iran.

33 Lidane  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:58:15am

Before the tattoos, the beehive, and Back to Black, there was Frank. Great album, and this is a great song from it:

34 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 10:58:17am

When I went to Napa JUCO for 2 years to play ball our coach insisted that we took an Aikido class...He said the Japanese stretching exercises would help a lot.. I ended up with a brown belt before transferring to Sonoma State... I believe that all kids..And esp. Girls should be taught a Marshal Art in grade school just like Math...
I recall getting my ass kicked from this little girl in College that was a black belt.. It was embarrassing... All kids need to be taught self defense

35 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:03:09am

re: #34 HoosierHoops
I agree. I would like to see the martial arts taught in school.

36 kirkspencer  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:05:31am

re: #34 HoosierHoops

When I went to Napa JUCO for 2 years to play ball our coach insisted that we took an Aikido class...He said the Japanese stretching exercises would help a lot.. I ended up with a brown belt before transferring to Sonoma State... I believe that all kids..And esp. Girls should be taught a Marshal Art in grade school just like Math...
I recall getting my ass kicked from this little girl in College that was a black belt.. It was embarrassing... All kids need to be taught self defense

I'm mixed in agreeing with the "all kids" statement. There are a lot of good physical reasons for pushing kids through physical activity during the pubescent years. Not least, it helps their brains realize where the hands and legs moved to overnight (grin). There's also the self-confidence element, though whether it's due to mastery of skill or just NOT being clumsy when all your peers are, well, idunno.

The down side is that the same puberty pushes a bunch of hormones and a lot of boys in that age group start displaying. Given physical skill, the displays turn physical.

Add the dominance games (both genders though physical is more frequently a male avenue) and it gives me pause.

(Note: 2d dan TKD, plus lower belts in some others, I'm talking experience here not theory.)

37 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:08:32am

re: #35 PhillyPretzel

I agree. I would like to see the martial arts taught in school.

We so agree.. All children should be taught to defend themselves in early school.. And it helps so much athletically for the kids... When you guys elect me President I'm put it in law..

38 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:10:48am

re: #37 HoosierHoops
I nominate Hoosier for President. Anyone to second the nomination?

39 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:12:18am

re: #38 PhillyPretzel

I nominate Hoosier for President. Anyone to second the nomination?

Sure. Hoosier Hoops 2016!

;)

40 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:14:30am

Pam Geller uncovers the great conspiracy.....
Who Added "Christian" and "Conservative" to Norway Shooter's Facebook Page Yesterday?

While the leftist and Islamic supremacist ghouls rush to portray Norway mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik as a Christian and even as an anti-jihadist, the unanswered questions multiply. Why did a jihad group take credit for the atrocities, and then retract? And who altered the murderer's Facebook page?
...
Did he have two different Facebook pages, one in Norwegian and one in English, and he only identified himself as a Christian and a conservative on the English one? Or did he pause from his murder spree to add "Christian" and "conservative" to his Facebook profile? Or maybe the whole page is a fake, as has been reported here.

But in the case, who faked it, and why? Who is so anxious to portray Breivik as a Christian and conservative? And if this was faked, can we trust any of the material that is now being released about Breivik being anti-jihad?


Conspiracy!

41 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:16:23am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Why would a jihadist group do something opportunistic?

42 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:16:24am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Now that there is no chance her lies will get hold, as the evidence is iron-clad, I'm not even outraged at this BS, I simply enjoy looking at how they burn themselves down.

43 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:17:02am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Pam Geller uncovers the great conspiracy...
Who Added "Christian" and "Conservative" to Norway Shooter's Facebook Page Yesterday?


Conspiracy!

It's amazing how many people think a 'false flag' operation would even be feasible.

44 Batman  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:17:19am

I literally have no idea what she did, but I've seen shows making fun of her for being a drug addict. Was she some sort of musician?

45 General Nimrod Bodfish  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:18:44am

re: #43 Obdicut

It's amazing how many people think a 'false flag' operation would even be feasible.

It's feasible if you invent your own reality like what Geller and company do (or in Geller's case, on the booze most of the time).

46 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:18:56am

re: #42 Sergey Romanov

Now that there is no chance her lies will get hold, as the evidence is iron-clad, I'm not even outraged at this BS, I simply enjoy looking at how they burn themselves down.

It's beyond absurd but unlike the birther crap, which is just stupid, she's actively obfuscating for a mass murdering terrorist. I suspect that she may disappear from public life rather soon.

47 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:19:07am

re: #44 nonsense

I had to look her up a month ago or so, when the name came up.

/writing from under a rock.

48 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:19:39am

Saw this earlier. So sad.

She was such a talent.

But when I read the "Breaking News" on CNN, I must be honest, my first reaction was that the slow motion, train wreck arc of her life had reached the station. Not surprised, just a sad shake of the head. RIP, Amy.

49 Political Atheist  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:20:00am

re: #36 kirkspencer

Heh, just got back from teaching a 12 year old. Every Saturday.
Okay likely nothing is good for all kids. Maybe it should be available to all, to sort out those who really do not belong. Those kids that get aggressive can usually be managed though by senior instructors. They should be separated for some one on one instruction. While supervised, I was taught to (carefully) spar or drill them into aerobic submission at the height of their adrenaline overload. Once they are so tired as to be unable to fight, they start to listen. Due to the physical condition at that moment it usually sticks. The pain in the lungs pumping away seems to reinforce the lesson of humility.

I must admit I'm an advocate of all young teen/women getting trained up at some point. To a point where they are more confident and highly unlikely to be touched or kissed without permission.

They used to give me the hardest cases at the temple where I studied and finally in '94 gained instructor ranking. The challenge was when that aggressive teen was bigger than I was. That was the test of my discipline.

50 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:20:01am

re: #43 Obdicut

It's amazing how many people think a 'false flag' operation would even be feasible.

Glenn Beck and Fox news have been laying the groundwork for this reaction for years. It's not surprising to me at all.

51 nines09  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:20:10am

Amy

52 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:20:25am

re: #44 nonsense

I literally have no idea what she did, but I've seen shows making fun of her for being a drug addict. Was she some sort of musician?

Please.. Her voice was so special.. So old school..So awesome...Amy opened her heart to raw..And I mean raw words..
I feel bad for her...She was special

53 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:20:50am

re: #50 Killgore Trout

If someone watches Beck and nods one's head, he'll swallow anything.

54 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:21:47am

Morons are grasping at any straws they can.

In the WOW forum this guy was talking on, one person mentions having just got back from the Middle East. So of course, moronic right-wing reactionaries seize on that as proof of the Islamic connection, that Anders is a secret jihadi!!!

Problem is: It was someone replying to his post, not Anders.

[Link: ibloga.blogspot.com...]

So goddamn predictable.

This is like if I was still trying to deny it was Weiner's weiner. I liked Weiner, I didn't think it had really gone down that way, but as soon as I (gag) saw proof, I didn't start concocting ridiculous conspiracy stories to try to account for the facts.

55 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:21:55am

re: #48 austin_blue

Saw this earlier. So sad.

She was such a talent.

But when I read the "Breaking News" on CNN, I must be honest, my first reaction was that the slow motion, train wreck arc of her life had reached the station. Not surprised, just a sad shake of the head. RIP, Amy.

My comment to my wife was simply that "She finally succeeded."

56 SpaceJesus  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:22:19am

browsing right-wing sites, you would think the cause of death for amy was "lack of bootstraps."

57 Political Atheist  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:22:47am

re: #38 PhillyPretzel

I nominate Hoosier for President. Anyone to second the nomination?


I'll second that.
The anti-idiotarian party.
Look out whigs...
(Just kiddin Ojoe glad to see some progress)

58 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:22:58am

re: #54 Obdicut

The more painful will be coming back to the senses (if ever happens).

59 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:25:13am

re: #58 Sergey Romanov

The more painful will be coming back to the senses (if ever happens).

Yeah. If. I don't think it will. I think we'll see four reactions, in the main, from the far radicals. I've seen each of these already:

1. He was drive to do this by the insanity of the culture he lived in.

2. He was co-opted and secretly used by jihadi terrorists.

3. He is actually a far-left socialist and the whole thing was a false flag and he will disappear in prison.

4. He wasn't actually a Christian, but one of the pagan death-metal weirdos.

60 kirkspencer  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:25:43am

re: #49 Rightwingconspirator

Heh, just got back from teaching a 12 year old. Every Saturday.
Okay likely nothing is good for all kids. Maybe it should be available to all, to sort out those who really do not belong. Those kids that get aggressive can usually be managed though by senior instructors. They should be separated for some one on one instruction. While supervised, I was taught to (carefully) spar or drill them into aerobic submission at the height of their adrenaline overload. Once they are so tired as to be unable to fight, they start to listen. Due to the physical condition at that moment it usually sticks. The pain in the lungs pumping away seems to reinforce the lesson of humility.

I must admit I'm an advocate of all young teen/women getting trained up at some point. To a point where they are more confident and highly unlikely to be touched or kissed without permission.

They used to give me the hardest cases at the temple where I studied and finally in '94 gained instructor ranking. The challenge was when that aggressive teen was bigger than I was. That was the test of my discipline.

Oh, it's solvable, but to do it right how many instructors per school do you think we'd need?

If'n I had to insist, I'd insist on an Avoid-Escape-Flight type of art for the requirement, with one of the so-called gentle arts as follow-up once the AEF basics are mastered.

61 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:26:30am

re: #47 Sergey Romanov

I had to look her up a month ago or so, when the name came up.

/writing from under a rock.

Her excesses overshadowed her music, the latter were impressive but the former were, well, fatal.

Unlike Pete Doherty, the male musician conterpart to AW, save for the fact that I cannot name a single piece of music he has come out with, he is simply infamous for his drug busts and association with kate Moss.

62 sagehen  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:26:59am

I guess I'll be the one to post this....

63 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:27:06am

re: #59 Obdicut

Oh, it depends on what happens at the trial. And maybe we've only seen the tip of the iceberg.

64 jaunte  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:27:48am

re: #40 Killgore Trout


While the leftist and Islamic supremacist ghouls rush to portray Norway mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik as a Christian and even as an anti-jihadist


Didn't he identify himself that way with his online comments?

65 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:27:57am

re: #60 kirkspencer

I taught self-defense for awhile. I got really angry at some of my fellow instructors, who were basically telling 120 pound girls they had a chance in a stand-up fight against a 180 pound guy.

I taught them to kick the knee and then run, or kiyoga the knee and then run. And mainly to try to see the situation coming and get the hell out of it.

66 allegro  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:28:34am

re: #49 Rightwingconspirator

I'm pretty sure you didn't mean this the way it comes across but this...

I must admit I'm an advocate of all young teen/women getting trained up at some point. To a point where they are more confident and highly unlikely to be touched or kissed without permission.

Is a *facepalm*

67 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:28:50am

I vote for "a victtim of the coddling Eurosocialist state-dominated culture."

And don't forget, if whose people at the holiday camp had all been packing weapons and been trained and ready to uose them in self-defense, this would not have happened.

/

68 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:28:54am

re: #63 Sergey Romanov

Oh, it depends on what happens at the trial. And maybe we've only seen the tip of the iceberg.

I'm really hoping that the 2nd shooter thing isn't true-- because then there may be more death-- but it seems a strong possibility that there was at least one other person involved, given how well-planned this was.

69 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:28:54am

re: #63 Sergey Romanov

I imagine Fjordman may have known him personally. Fjordman and Baron have met and know each other, and AB was a moneybag, Fjordman's fan, and a willing sponsor. It will be interesting to see if F is interrogated.

70 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:29:07am

re: #65 Obdicut
sometimes that is the best solution.

71 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:30:27am

re: #69 Sergey Romanov

> Fjordman and Baron have met and know each other

Uh, half-a-thought lost there - F and B met each other, i.e. F. was willing to meet with comrades, so more probability he knows AB personally.

72 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:30:57am

re: #65 Obdicut

I got really angry at some of my fellow instructors, who were basically telling 120 pound girls they had a chance in a stand-up fight against a 180 pound guy.


It is not about "winning a fight" it is about avoiding one...

73 Political Atheist  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:32:13am

re: #60 kirkspencer

That's a very good approach. Yes, where I went had the advantage of small numbers of students and plenty of senior talent. Escape skills and making them hard to hit or grab is a valuable subset that can be taught. Save the harsh counter-attack skill sets for more mature mindsets.

This is not likely to be something big public schools can do well.

74 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:33:06am

[Link: www.google.com...]

In other news, bionic turtle.

This is real. I promise.

[Link: www.google.com...]

[Link: www.google.com...]

75 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:34:14am

re: #73 Rightwingconspirator

There's also the problem that if everyone gets trained in self-defense, the ones who are already violent assholes are going to use that training to attack others. We could solve that by having philosophically perfect trainers, but a depressing number of martial arts trainers I know are of the Cobra school rather than Mr. Miyagi.

76 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:34:20am

re: #36 kirkspencer

I'm mixed in agreeing with the "all kids" statement. There are a lot of good physical reasons for pushing kids through physical activity during the pubescent years. Not least, it helps their brains realize where the hands and legs moved to overnight (grin). There's also the self-confidence element, though whether it's due to mastery of skill or just NOT being clumsy when all your peers are, well, idunno.

The down side is that the same puberty pushes a bunch of hormones and a lot of boys in that age group start displaying. Given physical skill, the displays turn physical.

Add the dominance games (both genders though physical is more frequently a male avenue) and it gives me pause.

(Note: 2d dan TKD, plus lower belts in some others, I'm talking experience here not theory.)

My kid has learned a ton of "self-defense" techniques in his lower belts. I think every kid should at least be taught those. Most are so simple, but we wouldnt' think of them on their own.

It would be up to the individual if they want to proceed further and learn the higher belts.

77 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:34:29am

re: #65 Obdicut

I taught self-defense for awhile. I got really angry at some of my fellow instructors, who were basically telling 120 pound girls they had a chance in a stand-up fight against a 180 pound guy.

I taught them to kick the knee and then run, or kiyoga the knee and then run. And mainly to try to see the situation coming and get the hell out of it.

Harder to teach, but more valuable!

78 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:34:51am

Oh, wow, so-called "common sense"/"forensic" types of arguments come up at GoV now. I'm very well acquainted with them, having studied the Holocaust and Katyn denials.

Vortac said...

OK, he killed 90 persons, meaning he probably wounded two times many. That's at least 270 rounds. Let's assume he was an excellent marksman and that he was on target with every third or fourth bullet and that he didn't use burst or auto fire. The man carried about 1000 rounds of ammunition with him? That's about 15 kilograms of ammunition only (5.56 cal), almost 20kg if he used something bigger, like 7.62. However, pictures of him during the shooting show him without any backpacks or large bags. He carried 1000 rounds in his pockets?

79 mikec6666  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:35:41am

Major suckage. Loved her voice.

80 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:36:35am

re: #78 Sergey Romanov

Even the simplest news report on the incident has mentioned the bag he took with him.

Argument from incredulity is one of my least favorite

81 allegro  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:36:40am

re: #78 Sergey Romanov

Oh, wow, so-called "common sense"/"forensic" types of arguments come up at GoV now. I'm very well acquainted with them, having studied the Holocaust and Katyn denials.

WTF? What is the argument? That the guy didn't really do what everyone there saw him do?

82 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:38:18am

re: #64 jaunte

Didn't he identify himself that way with his online comments?

Yup. Numerous times.

83 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:38:59am

re: #81 allegro

That doesn't have to make sense. The purpose is to confuse.

84 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:39:23am

re: #75 Obdicut

There's also the problem that if everyone gets trained in self-defense, the ones who are already violent assholes are going to use that training to attack others. We could solve that by having philosophically perfect trainers, but a depressing number of martial arts trainers I know are of the Cobra school rather than Mr. Miyagi.

All girls should be trained in self defense from a young age...

85 Political Atheist  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:41:53am

re: #75 Obdicut

There's also the problem that if everyone gets trained in self-defense, the ones who are already violent assholes are going to use that training to attack others. We could solve that by having philosophically perfect trainers, but a depressing number of martial arts trainers I know are of the Cobra school rather than Mr. Miyagi.

Aggressive violent students must get kicked out. Of course they already have the advantage over the untrained. By dint of ferocity. So we are left with a disadvantged set of nice kids in any case.

Lets not make the perfect the enemy of the good okay? Self defense classes are focused on defensive methods, and short on attack skills. Aikido is a good example. But even straight boxing class can emphasize blocking, weaving and distancing over the hitting skills by a wide margin. One has to assume a certain amount of responsibility for teachers at school to judge who should continue. Attack/counter attack skills can be left out of the early curriculum.

86 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:43:05am

re: #72 ralphieboy

It is not about "winning a fight" it is about avoiding one...

No shit. I've found it is impossible to be angry when in the proximity of the Grand Master at my son's dojo. I guess after practicing for 50+ years, you just emanate calmness.

87 Political Atheist  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:50:10am

re: #84 HoosierHoops

All girls should be trained in self defense from a young age...


Yes. All.

88 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:51:03am

re: #85 Rightwingconspirator

Aggressive violent students must get kicked out.

Again, this depends on having good teachers.

Of course they already have the advantage over the untrained. By dint of ferocity. So we are left with a disadvantged set of nice kids in any case.

Lets not make the perfect the enemy of the good okay?

Back when I was a skinny geek, a mandatory self-defense class would have just been another chance to get humiliated in front of my peers.

Self defense classes are focused on defensive methods, and short on attack skills.

There's really no difference. Defense won't end a fight, won't let you escape. If you do pure defense, you lose.

Aikido is a good example.

Aikido is cast as purely defensive, but it isn't. You take people down. You can use Akido to beat the living hell out of someone else.

But even straight boxing class can emphasize blocking, weaving and distancing over the hitting skills by a wide margin.

Again, that really wouldn't matter. If you can dodge a lot of the other guy's punches, he'll get tired and then you can beat the crap out of him.

There is no martial skill of defense that can't be used offensively. It's just not possible.

I'm fine with martial arts being taught. I am saying we'd need a hell of a lot of quality control of the teachers, and we'd need to reform the culture that we bring our kids up in, where bullying is basically totally tolerated.

89 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 11:51:39am

re: #87 Rightwingconspirator

Yes. All.

Strange, I find girls that are into equestrian sports also don't have much of a problem with boys.

I guess working with a 1200 lb animal leaves you with a certain level of confidence . . . . not to mention, very very strong.

90 Crimsonfisted  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 12:01:52pm

re: #87 Rightwingconspirator

Yes. All.

Or marry a bodyguard. That's what I did.

91 kirkspencer  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 1:39:28pm

re: #65 Obdicut

I taught self-defense for awhile. I got really angry at some of my fellow instructors, who were basically telling 120 pound girls they had a chance in a stand-up fight against a 180 pound guy.

I taught them to kick the knee and then run, or kiyoga the knee and then run. And mainly to try to see the situation coming and get the hell out of it.

Actually, once I started looking at it seriously, teaching the knee shot started being lower priority.

Recognizing that avoidance training should take precedence, teaching how to get out of the half-dozen most common grabs plus dealing with a charge takes care of the majority of what can't be avoided. What has saddened me in most self-defense and martial arts classes is that we say that about avoidance and NEVER REALLY TEACH IT.

92 William of Orange  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 2:32:17pm

Murdered by the terrorist cell Al-Cohol....

93 wee fury  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 2:49:38pm

Deepest sympathy to the family and friends.

94 researchok  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 3:00:15pm

What a tragic waste. Drugs and alcohol continue to take their toll.

I wonder how many unknowns died under similar circumstances who will not get get noticed.

Too many, for sure.

95 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 23, 2011 6:48:29pm

"Rehab", IMO, was a great fucking song. One of the few songs that knocked me out the first time I heard it.


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