Forbes Writer Gets Oslo Terrorist Story Very Wrong

No, LGF is not ‘popular among anti-Islam activists’
World • Views: 44,622

Note to Forbes writer Abigail R. Esman: you really should do some research before lumping me in with the “counter-jihad” bigots: What Really Lies Behind The Oslo Attacks – And Why It May Happen Again - Abigail R. Esman.

At this writing, the sole suspect in custody is 32-year-old Anders Behring Breivik, who for the past several years has kept up running commentary on the site www.document.no (Google translation posted here ),  a right-wing blog where he has targeted liberals, Muslims, and multiculturalism (“an anti-European ideology of hate that aims to destroy European culture, identity, and Christianity”).  Yet nothing in these writings greatly distinguishes him from other followers of such blogs: he frequently praises a writer who goes by the name “Fjordman” and who is well known on the conservative, largely anti-Islam circuit; and he often cites posts from the site Little Green Footballs and Pamela Geller’s Atlas Shrugged , both of which are popular not only among anti-Islam activists, but amont even more moderate types concerned about the rise of radical Islam in the West.

I’ve had nothing to do with the “anti-Islam” blogosphere for years — in fact, they absolutely hate my guts. And Breivik did not cite posts from Little Green Footballs — he republished old articles by “Fjordman” that cited LGF, and he also cites many articles viciously attacking me. For example, on page 636:

“I have watched, for the better part of a year, a number of decent human beings including, but not limited to, Pamela Geller, Paul Belien, Diana West, the Baron and Dymphna from the Gates of Vienna blog and many others, being at the receiving end of a vicious smear campaign from Charles Johnson and Little Green Footballs which is unlike anything I have seen in my life. After engaging in an insane witch-hunt on imaginary Fascists, whose ranks seem to grow every month, Mr. Johnson now suddenly chooses to look the other way in silence when very real Fascists use violence to silence their critics in a major Western city. I admit that makes me angry, and I think I have the right to be so.

The time has now come for Mr. Johnson to apologise in public to the numerous people he has smeared since the fall of 2007, starting with the ones I have mentioned above. It’s not their credibility that’s on the line here. It’s his. If he continues to undermine those confronting Islamic infiltration, it will become increasingly difficult for LGF to present itself as an anti-Jihad website at all. At some point, the rapidly shrinking number of people in the northern hemisphere who haven’t been banned from the site yet will be forced to ask themselves whether the website and its owner have simply switched teams and joined the Dark Side.”

I never “apologized” for calling out these bigots and neo-fascists, and I never will.

Ms Esman, this should be corrected.

UPDATE at 7/24/11 10:30:47 am

Esman has now removed the reference to LGF, with no comment, after I contacted her via email.

Jump to bottom

278 comments
1 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:43:31am

Strongly-worded letter to her editor.

2 Summer Seale  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:44:41am

Just a note, and I'm sure others will have found this already, but Pamela Geller's name is used admiringly in a section of Anders's manifesto:

Page 615:

"I have watched, for the better part of a year, a number of decent human beings including, but not limited to, Pamela Geller, Paul Belien, Diana West, the Baron and Dymphna from the Gates of Vienna blog and many others, being at the receiving end of a vicious smear campaign from Charles Johnson and Little Green Footballs which is unlike anything I have seen in my life. After engaging in an insane witch-hunt on imaginary Fascists, whose ranks seem to grow every month, Mr. Johnson now suddenly chooses to look the other way in silence when very real Fascists use violence to silence their critics in a major Western city. I admit that makes me angry, and I think I have the right to be so."

He mentions LGF as well, obviously.

Robert Spencer is mentioned as well, no less than on 37 pages (too long to list here).

3 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:45:16am
After engaging in an insane witch-hunt on imaginary Fascists

Gee that phrase really resonates now doesn't it?/

4 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:45:52am

If you want to Tweet her she's at @radicalstates on Twitter.

5 Spocomptonite  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:46:31am

I've been visiting an anti-jihad website this whole time? Wow, that's news to me. Really shows how blind my hate for Muslims has made me.

///

Seriously though, if she wasn't trying to defer the guilt of what her ideas can do, and probably have done in this case of terrorism, onto you, Charles, I suspect Geller'd be just as or more offended by being lumped in with you.

6 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:47:31am

Last night Sergey's posts of the shooter's rants included a unique reference to "Sociology" instructors. I have only seen that meme in caches of one other blog.

7 jaunte  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:47:36am
On Monday November 30th, Johnson wrote a post, Why I Parted Ways With The Right, listing ten reasons for his change of heart, taking specific aim at Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, James Inhofe, Michele Bachmann, the Christian Right, the tea parties, the birthers, and so on:

"The American right wing has gone off the rails, into the bushes, and off the cliff.
I won't be going over the cliff with them."

The post received more than 1,400 comments, and was re-tweeted over 9,000 times.
[Link: www.neontommy.com...]


Esman must not be aware of all internet search functions.

8 Summer Seale  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:47:48am

The entire manifesto can be downloaded from Wikipedia's page at the very bottom of the article:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It is very, very, long.

Also, he mentions an argument with LGF:

"In late 2007 and early 2008, I was involved in a heated argument with the American blog Little Green Footballs and its owner Charles Johnson. I haven't been thinking much about it since then because it consumed too much energy and I found it to be a waste of time. However, recent events have caused me to look at these issues once more. In the city of Cologne (Köln), Germany, a scheduled anti-Islamisation demonstration was disrupted by an unholy alliance of Eurabian Multicultural elites and extreme Leftist "anti-Fascists." As Thomas Landen puts it in The Brussels Journal[1]:"

And there is more as well.

9 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:48:10am

Pesky facts and stuff.

10 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:49:07am

re: #8 Summer

The entire manifesto can be downloaded from Wikipedia's page at the very bottom of the article:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It is very, very, long.

Also, he mentions an argument with LGF:

"In late 2007 and early 2008, I was involved in a heated argument with the American blog Little Green Footballs and its owner Charles Johnson. I haven't been thinking much about it since then because it consumed too much energy and I found it to be a waste of time. However, recent events have caused me to look at these issues once more. In the city of Cologne (Köln), Germany, a scheduled anti-Islamisation demonstration was disrupted by an unholy alliance of Eurabian Multicultural elites and extreme Leftist "anti-Fascists." As Thomas Landen puts it in The Brussels Journal[1]:"

And there is more as well.

Shame it's so long--that quote would make a nice cross-stitch for the wall at Lizard Underground HQ.

11 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:49:12am

re: #8 Summer

It's difficult to distinguish between Breivik's writings and Fjordman's articles, because he included more than 30 Fjordman pieces in that manifesto. But the one you're quoting is also from Fjordman.

12 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:49:31am

Charles, if you get a correction and/or an apology, I say fire up the Flying Pig.

13 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:49:36am

I've emailed Ms Esman about this.

14 Summer Seale  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:49:58am

I haven't read the entire thing, but the fact that he says he was involved in arguments leads me to believe that he had a name here and some of us may have read his stuff. If so, I am certain that he was one of those expunged for extremist and insane views over the last few years.

I am wondering which one it was, and what he said.

15 Summer Seale  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:51:57am

re: #11 Charles

It's difficult to distinguish between Breivik's writings and Fjordman's articles, because he included more than 30 Fjordman pieces in that manifesto. But the one you're quoting is also from Fjordman.

Yes I haven't read the entire thing yet, but I'm wondering if it's him or FJordman. Perhaps he thinks he is Fjordman. I'm not sure.

As I said, it's very long. But he list names and clearly tells everyone where his sympathies lie. So yes, Pamela Geller, Fjordman, Robert Spencer, et al, are all partly responsible for this in a very clear way, I think.

16 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:52:43am

By the way. She also authored Radical State: How Jihad Is Winning Over Democracy in the West There we find a glowing review from Robert Spencer:

"… elegiac, insightful and sweeping new book … It's a profoundly moving, personal account of how the stealth jihad has advanced in the Netherlands over the last decade and more, written by someone who was in the center of it all." -- Jihad Watch

You may notice that she didn't mention Robert Spencer or Jihad Watch in her latest piece at Forbes. Yet Robert Spencer is mentioned numerous times (in the positive and in 46 instances) in Breivik's manifesto.

17 recusancy  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:53:13am

She seems to put the blame on the "multiculturalist ideal".

18 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:53:20am

re: #14 Summer

Thanks for the manifesto Wiki link. Been trying to open that fucker for 2 days now.:)

19 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:54:13am

re: #13 Charles

I've emailed Ms Esman about this.

Sounds like you should cc: up the food chain at Forbes.

20 Summer Seale  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:54:20am

Anyway I'm off to have some dinner. I just found it to be fascinating and exposes a lot of people on the right wing which you fought against for so long, Charles. You warned about this years ago and you were right. I'm glad that I reconsidered some of my positions as well and saw where the others were leading.

You've been fighting a very uphill battle for a very long time, and this, I think, helps to clarify to others exactly what those people were involved in and what they were encouraging.

21 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:54:50am

Am I missing it or did she not notice the 100's of mentions and links to Robert Spencer? It's like she didn't even read the document.

22 jaunte  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:55:22am

re: #17 recusancy

It is, in many ways, the inevitable outcome of a multiculturalist ideal that, in practice, has failed – and in this case, failed fatally.


I strongly disagree with her premise.

23 recusancy  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:55:36am

re: #17 recusancy

She seems to put the blame on the "multiculturalist ideal".

Actually, scratch that. She doesn't seem to. She DOES put the blame on multiculturalism.

24 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:55:40am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Am I missing it or did she not notice the 100's of mentions and links to Robert Spencer? It's like she didn't even read the document.

Well, KT, what the hell is the point in reading or doing research for a major publication. I mean, the effort!!!
///

25 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:55:41am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Am I missing it or did she not notice the 100's of mentions and links to Robert Spencer? It's like she didn't even read the document.

Amazing isn't it? I'm looking into this book of hers right now.

26 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:56:07am

re: #16 Gus 802

By the way. She also authored Radical State: How Jihad Is Winning Over Democracy in the West There we find a glowing review from Robert Spencer:

You may notice that she didn't mention Robert Spencer or Jihad Watch in her latest piece at Forbes. Yet Robert Spencer is mentioned numerous times (in the positive and in 46 instances) in Breivik's manifesto.

I noticed that too. Spencer may even be referenced more than Fjordy in his manifesto. I think she just picked up on the web squabble between LGF and Geller and used it as her research.

27 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:57:50am

re: #26 Killgore Trout

I noticed that too. Spencer may even be referenced more than Fjordy in his manifesto. I think she just picked up on the web squabble between LGF and Geller and used it as her researchlazy-assed source.

Corrected.

28 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:57:51am

This is interesting.

ESMAN: Honor killings spur my icky alliance with the right
When will liberal media admit that religion is killing American girls?

By Abigail R. Esman - The Washington Times

And yet, like other honor killings committed in America in recent years, this horrifying story has received virtually no news coverage. What little has appeared has been almost entirely in the so-called “right-wing” press or on websites that tend to appeal to a radical fringe. In the meantime, as conservative journalist Jamie Glazov, recently noted, the liberal left - with all of its calls for equal rights for women, with all of its feminist supporters - maintains an almost conspiratorial silence.

29 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:58:22am

re: #28 Gus 802

The Washington Times??!! LOL!!!

30 Spocomptonite  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:58:47am

Having now read her article, I'm relatively less offended by her thinking this is an anti-jihad website because its been overshadowed by the offense that she STILL says it the fault of Muslims, because if they had just assimilated into white European culture, they wouldn't have protested to their politicians for, as she puts in, "concessions", and the politicians wouldn't have become a target for intolerant terrorists and this wouldn't have happened, and it probably will keep happening.

I'm beginning to wonder which I'm going to wear out first, my palm or my face.

31 recusancy  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:59:14am

re: #28 Gus 802

This is interesting.

ESMAN: Honor killings spur my icky alliance with the right
When will liberal media admit that religion is killing American girls?

By Abigail R. Esman - The Washington Times

It seems she's a self hating conservative.

32 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:59:25am

re: #16 Gus 802

By the way. She also authored Radical State: How Jihad Is Winning Over Democracy in the West There we find a glowing review from Robert Spencer:

You may notice that she didn't mention Robert Spencer or Jihad Watch in her latest piece at Forbes. Yet Robert Spencer is mentioned numerous times (in the positive and in 46 instances) in Breivik's manifesto.

Good catch, Gus.

33 austin_blue  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 9:59:50am

Good morning all! Hope you are well.

An unfortunate lumping of three-and-a-half year old facts with present day reality in that article. I think Charles is spot on in rejecting it and complaining to the author.

Euro fascists and home grown collaborators wouldn't last long here anymore. That really *is* old news.

34 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:00:44am

This woman is downright embarrassing.

35 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:01:13am

re: #31 recusancy

It seems she's a self hating conservative.

She claims to be a liberal. Something doesn't smell right here.

36 jaunte  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:01:19am

re: #30 Spocomptonite

Has she defined her idea of a fully assimilated European Muslim?

37 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:02:06am

re: #25 Gus 802

Amazing isn't it? I'm looking into this book of hers right now.

Ah, I see, She's a counterjihad writer. Her email address is from this domain....
[Link: worlddefensereview.com...]
Featuring writers like Walid Phares. She might have some ties to Spencer.

38 recusancy  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:02:10am

re: #35 Gus 802

She claims to be a liberal. Something doesn't smell right here.


Nothing she says is remotely liberal.

39 jaunte  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:03:15am

re: #38 recusancy

Nothing she says is remotely liberal.

For example:

Breivik has simply taken a different approach: he attacked what he sees as the enablers — frustrated, perhaps, by a failure to vote them out of power. It is a new form of protest, and he is the first to use it. But I fear that, unless Europe begins demanding that its Muslim population live according to its Enlightenment traditions and the values of democracy, he will not be the last.
40 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:03:17am

re: #16 Gus 802

By the way. She also authored Radical State: How Jihad Is Winning Over Democracy in the West There we find a glowing review from Robert Spencer:

You may notice that she didn't mention Robert Spencer or Jihad Watch in her latest piece at Forbes. Yet Robert Spencer is mentioned numerous times (in the positive and in 46 instances) in Breivik's manifesto.

Curious.

41 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:03:40am

Is she "one of them"?

Radical State: How Jihad Is Winning Over Democracy in the West - Abigail R. Esman (Praeger Security International)

In Radical State: How Jihad Is Winning Over Democracy in the West, author Abigail R. Esman argues that in large measure, it is actually jihad which has emerged victorious over democracy, not only because of the actions of Muslim terrorists, but because of our own response to extremist Islam in the West. With the best of intentions, Western (European) countries have permitted antidemocratic, ultraconservative Islamic beliefs and traditions to flourish in their societies as they've responded to the influx of Muslim immigrants to their shores, largely as a result of the guest-worker programs which began in the 1960s and 1970s across Europe. But this multicultural approach has only backfired, creating cultural wars in which even the most intolerant and undemocratic of belief systems and values have been permitted, as governments have turned a blind eye to such atrocities as honor killings, anti-Semitism, the spread of literature extolling violence, and calls for the destruction of the democratic state.

Esman focuses her narrative on the Netherlands, oft regarded as the most free, stable, and tolerant nation in the West, the paragon of democracy and tolerance. Using Holland as an example, she demonstrates the collapse of democratic values that has occurred in other Western countries—including America—as we struggle against radical Islam. In doing so, she shows how the Western response to the threat of radicalization has at times gone to dangerous extremes, counterbalancing the multiculturalists' indulgence of radical Islam with the creation of restrictive, nearly-totalitarian laws and measures that are as destructive and toxic to our future-to free thought, free speech, and equal rights. Radical State uniquely articulates the dissolution of democratic values that have resulted from the actions of both left- and right-wing approaches to the problem. More importantly, the book strives to resolve the critical question of "what went wrong"—because to set things right again requires understanding how it all broke apart—and we must set it right, or jihad's victory over democracy will be complete, and sooner than we may realize.

42 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:04:00am

This makes you wonder just how much we read and or see every day from the media is just flat out wrong.

Journalism died a loooooooooooooong time ago it seems.

43 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:04:22am

re: #40 Charles

Curious.

Hit piece? See KT's #37 as well.

44 austin_blue  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:04:26am

re: #28 Gus 802

This is interesting.

ESMAN: Honor killings spur my icky alliance with the right
When will liberal media admit that religion is killing American girls?

By Abigail R. Esman - The Washington Times

Ah. She is Sekrit Koncern Troll. Well, she has her platform and facts don't matter. I don't think Charles is going to get an apology from Ms. Esman. He's going to have to offer to sue Forbes to get a retraction.

45 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:04:33am
46 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:04:44am

re: #38 recusancy

Nothing she says is remotely liberal.

RW "House Liberal".

47 recusancy  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:04:54am

re: #42 brownbagj

This makes you wonder just how much we read and or see every day from the media is just flat out wrong.

Journalism died a looong time ago it seems.

Well, she's a bit of a right wing nutter, so don't lump her in with all of journalism.

48 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:05:13am

She freelances for The Nation?

Your text to link...

49 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:06:39am

re: #47 recusancy

True, but it seems we have more "commentators" or Op-eds than we do just reporting facts.

Everyone seems to be pushing agendas instead of putting facts out and letting the reader/viewer decide.

50 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:06:46am
51 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:07:29am

re: #50 Gus 802

Google "Abigail R. Esman" site:jihadwatch.org

It's confirmed.
She's a wingnut.
Oy.

52 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:07:33am

We got a live one here. She's a concern troll as Austin suggests.

53 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:08:14am
By Abigail R. Esman
World Defense Review columnist
Islamophobia
Is the rejection of radical Islam "anti-Muslim"?

Your text to link...

54 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:08:31am

Amazing how quickly things get sifted at LGF.

Google should put in an LGF filter for truth.

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:08:58am

re: #30 Spocomptonite

Having now read her article, I'm relatively less offended by her thinking this is an anti-jihad website because its been overshadowed by the offense that she STILL says it the fault of Muslims, because if they had just assimilated into white European culture, they wouldn't have protested to their politicians for, as she puts in, "concessions", and the politicians wouldn't have become a target for intolerant terrorists and this wouldn't have happened, and it probably will keep happening.

I'm beginning to wonder which I'm going to wear out first, my palm or my face.

Where have I heard that sort of thinking before? Oh, yes: if only the imperialist, warmongering United States had not imposed its influence over the Muslim world, and stationed troops in Saudi Arabia and such, 9/11 and subsequent actions by Al Qaeda would not have happened. And some people did say that, and were rightly eviscerated, probably by her.

56 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:09:01am

Esman is refusing to issue a correction.

57 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:09:06am

re: #52 Gus 802

We got a live one here. She's a concern troll as Austin suggests.

Image: ConcernCat.jpg

58 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:09:40am

re: #54 brownbagj

Amazing how quickly things get sifted at LGF.

Google should put in an LGF filter for truth.

we have done the same thing with the NYT, Reuters, etc for years.

59 jaunte  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:09:47am

From Radical State:
How Jihad Is Winning Over Democracy in the West

Esman: "In the United States, as in Europe, the Islamist threat is double-edged: violent and ideological. Ultimately, both point to the same goal: the establishment of an Islamic state, a planting of the flag of Islam where the flags of democracy now wave. Although the "terrorism" we hear about is the kind that invokes death and destruction, bombings and burnings and shootings, there is another kind of jihad, a more insidious, quiet version."


It's creeping jihad time!

60 Spocomptonite  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:10:29am

WTF

To those who say I’ve blamed the Muslims, I suggest you read again. What I have blamed are the people and governments who never helped Muslim immigrants to assimilate, who never asked them or helped them to learn their culture, and now turn against them because they haven’t done so. They have contributed, however unwittingly, to the conflict that now pervades Europe — a conflict that is growing, and which led to the horrors of these attacks. It is not inconceivable that more like this will follow – not because I think they should, but because, tragically, I doubt that this one attacker is the only one of his kind.

Apparently, its assumed that Muslims must assimilate and can't keep their own cultural traditions outside of the Middle East, and not requiring them to do is a wrong that opens oneself up to terrorists attacks. Abigail, are you seriously saying that they were asking for it?!

61 allegro  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:10:32am

re: #35 Gus 802

She claims to be a liberal. Something doesn't smell right here.

I'm with you. As I read I kept wondering what it was she expected of liberals beyond adding to the Muslim hatred. Feminists speak out all the time about domestic violence of which this is a clear and horrible case yet she just discounts this as somehow different.

62 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:10:46am

re: #56 Charles

Not surprising. What next? How can we help get the truth about this out there.

I mean dang - you are HATED by those who you dumped years ago. How ridiculous is this?!

63 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:11:07am

re: #59 jaunte

From Radical State:
How Jihad Is Winning Over Democracy in the West


It's creeping jihad time!

Mmm My Sharia!

/Sorry.

64 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:11:12am
65 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:11:12am

re: #56 Charles
That is not a surprise. It is more like standard operating procedure with these folks.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:12:20am

re: #30 Spocomptonite

Having now read her article, I'm relatively less offended by her thinking this is an anti-jihad website because its been overshadowed by the offense that she STILL says it the fault of Muslims, because if they had just assimilated into white European culture, they wouldn't have protested to their politicians for, as she puts in, "concessions", and the politicians wouldn't have become a target for intolerant terrorists and this wouldn't have happened, and it probably will keep happening.

I'm beginning to wonder which I'm going to wear out first, my palm or my face.

And now we sing the Root Causes Tango--well, it's not really a tango. That would be too smooth and civilized.

BAKER, CINDERELLA, JACK: So it's your fault!

LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD: Wait a minute-!

CINDERELLA: If you hadn't dared him to-

BAKER (To Jack): And you had left the harp alone, We wouldn't be in trouble In the first place!

LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD (To Cinderella): Well, if you hadn't thrown away the bean In the first place-!

CINDERELLA: Well, if she hadn't raised them in the first place-!

LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD (To Cinderella): It was your fault!

JACK (To Witch): Yes, if you hadn't raised them in the first place-!

LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD & BAKER (To Witch): Right! It's you raised them in the first place-!

CINDERELLA: You raised the beans in the first place!

JACK: It's your fault!

CINDERELLA, JACK, BAKER, LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD: You're responsible! You're the one to blame! It's your fault!

67 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:12:33am

I read the article.

Ms Esman is an idiot in addition to being factually incorrect re CJ and LGF.

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:12:55am

re: #36 jaunte

Has she defined her idea of a fully assimilated European Muslim?

Protestant.

69 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:13:05am

Take a look at this. Please note the title "Pen and Sword" [Link: www.dogpile.com...]

70 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:13:23am

re: #59 jaunte

From Radical State:
How Jihad Is Winning Over Democracy in the West


It's creeping jihad time!

Like I said, she is an idiot.

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:13:30am

re: #37 Killgore Trout

Ah, I see, She's a counterjihad writer. Her email address is from this domain...
[Link: worlddefensereview.com...]
Featuring writers like Walid Phares. She might have some ties to Spencer.

Shouldn't a counterjihad writer know by now that Charles is off the barbecue list?

72 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:14:17am

This creeping jihad sounds a lot like kudzu.

/

73 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:14:38am

re: #64 Killgore Trout

Jackpot.

She's in cahoots with Robert Spencer. Obvious hit piece of some form or another. She should include herself in that list from what I've read thus far.

74 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:14:48am

re: #72 brownbagj
Yes. :(

75 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:15:03am

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

Shouldn't a counterjihad writer know by now that Charles is off the barbecue list?

You're assuming naive error.

76 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:15:51am

re: #61 allegro

I'm with you. As I read I kept wondering what it was she expected of liberals beyond adding to the Muslim hatred. Feminists speak out all the time about domestic violence of which this is a clear and horrible case yet she just discounts this as somehow different.

She sounds like someone who has no contact with ordinary muslims in the real world, which I think is a major necessary condition for a great many 'anti-jihadists'.

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:15:53am

re: #60 Spocomptonite

WTF

Apparently, its assumed that Muslims must assimilate and can't keep their own cultural traditions outside of the Middle East, and not requiring them to do is a wrong that opens oneself up to terrorists attacks. Abigail, are you seriously saying that they were asking for it?!

Yes, she is, and many others are too. When they thought this attacker was an Islamist, they blamed Norway for being weak and open to attack by jihadis, and now they know he was a homegrown nationalist or whatever the hell he is, they blame Norway for putting Men of Honor in a position where they have to (so reluctantly) act like the terrorists they SO despise.

78 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:16:06am

re: #73 Gus 802

This does seem like a "purpose driven" mistake.

In other words, no mistake - agenda on display.

79 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:16:30am

re: #56 Charles

Esman is refusing to issue a correction.

And you won't get one. These "journalists" are such fools in this age of the intertubes, when all it takes is that little thing called a "search engine" to call them out.

80 webevintage  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:16:47am

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist


CINDERELLA, JACK, BAKER, LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD: You're responsible! You're the one to blame! It's your fault!

Upding for Into The Woods....
Sondheim, always an appropriate commentary on society.

81 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:17:03am

re: #78 brownbagj

This does seem like a "purpose driven" mistake.

In other words, no mistake - agenda on display.

Otherwise: "My mistake, really sorry, I'll fix it."

82 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:17:07am

re: #79 Kid A

Eh, she knew what she was doing.

83 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:17:29am

I sent this letter to Forbes.

[Link: blogs.forbes.com...]

That piece blames multiculturalism for this man's actions. It does not blame the anti-multiculturalists, or the right-wing, or the insane anti-Muslim rhetoric. No, it turns out that the reason all those liberal kids are dead is because liberals are terrible, evil things and this is an enevitable conseuqnces of their actions.

Did you read her article first? Did you factcheck it, and note that she leaves out any mention of Robert Spencer, despite the shooter's frequent references to him?

And why does she name Little Green Footballs as an anti-jihad site, when it has, for the last several years, spent its time exposing the underbelly of the anti-jihad movement?

I'm shocked to see Forbes publishing a piece that is so defensive of a mass murderer. I'm amazed.

Tom


Now I'm going to send a similar one to as many of Forbes's advertisers as I can find.

84 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:17:59am
85 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:18:49am

re: #82 brownbagj

Eh, she knew what she was doing.

I don't question that at all. I just can't believe they do it anyway, when they're going to get slapped.

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:18:57am

re: #61 allegro

I'm with you. As I read I kept wondering what it was she expected of liberals beyond adding to the Muslim hatred. Feminists speak out all the time about domestic violence of which this is a clear and horrible case yet she just discounts this as somehow different.

Phyllis Chesler, for one, has written about how honor killings are different from the Western brand of domestic violence.

She has some good points, in that patterns, stressors, and some other factors are culturally distinct.

I am bothered by two things about her analysis, one of which being that it feels to me as though she's almost dismissive about 'normal' domestic violence--as though being murdered by your boyfriend is somehow less disturbing than you being murdered by your brother-- and the other being that aside from one or two disclaimers she identifies it as a Muslim problem, ignoring the Hindu and Sikh names on the lists of victims that she attached to the article.

87 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:19:17am

re: #85 Kid A

Slapped by who? They know who their audience is...

88 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:20:26am

re: #87 brownbagj

Slapped by who? They know who their audience is...

No, what's going on here right now at LGF. Look at how much has been posted here about her in less than ten minutes.

89 What, me worry?  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:20:27am

Reload her page. She removed the LGF reference.

90 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:20:37am

re: #72 brownbagj

This creeping jihad sounds a lot like kudzu.

/

I have creeping sharia in my lawn...

91 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:20:46am

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

Phyllis Chesler, for one, has written about how honor killings are different from the Western brand of domestic violence.

She has some good points, in that patterns, stressors, and some other factors are culturally distinct.

I am bothered by two things about her analysis, one of which being that it feels to me as though she's almost dismissive about 'normal' domestic violence--as though being murdered by your boyfriend is somehow less disturbing than you being murdered by your brother-- and the other being that aside from one or two disclaimers she identifies it as a Muslim problem, ignoring the Hindu and Sikh names on the lists of victims that she attached to the article.

Doubt you have to go back very far to find Irish-American honor killings.

92 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:22:17am

re: #88 Kid A

No, what's going on here right now at LGF. Look at how much has been posted here about her in less than ten minutes.

Because we fuckin' rule.

93 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:22:38am

re: #67 researchok

I read the article.

Ms Esman is an idiot in addition to being factually incorrect a liar re CJ and LGF.

94 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:22:57am

re: #92 Cannadian Club Akbar

Because we fuckin' rule.

Amen to that.

95 What, me worry?  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:23:04am

re: #89 marjoriemoon

Reload her page. She removed the LGF reference.

She didn't make an "update" to her page, which she should have, but OK, at least we're not on there.

96 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:23:40am

re: #89 marjoriemoon

Reload her page. She removed the LGF reference.

Good. However, she still leaves out Robert Spencer.

She also added a postscript.

97 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:23:43am

bbiab

98 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:24:02am

re: #92 Cannadian Club Akbar

We do? Where are my groupies?

99 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:24:10am

re: #95 marjoriemoon

She didn't make an "update" to her page, which she should have, but OK, at least we're not on there.

And that doesn't qualify as a correction in my book.

100 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:24:26am
101 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:24:31am

re: #89 marjoriemoon

Reload her page. She removed the LGF reference.

Yes, she removed the reference, when I told her I was going to contact Forbes's editors. And she was NOT gracious about it -- accused me of "defaming" her with this post.

102 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:25:09am

If you guys want to email a company that has ads in Forbes about this, a good one to do is Porsche. Because of their history, they're rather vigilant about keeping themselves distanced from the xenophobic right wing.

The contact info for them is:

[Link: my.porsche.com...]

103 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:25:21am

re: #101 Charles

So you are defaming her for pointing out the truth, she is NOT defaming you for putting out an obvious "untruth."

The spinning makes me dizzy.

104 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:25:32am

re: #101 Charles

Yes, she removed the reference, when I told her I was going to contact Forbes's editors. And she was NOT gracious about it -- accused me of "defaming" her with this post.

Well boo freaking hoo.
:)

105 What, me worry?  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:25:50am

re: #99 Kid A

re: #101 Charles

No, it's not a correction, but we have it documented.

Awful. It's quite clear what she's saying even from the comments.

106 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:26:19am

re: #101 Charles

She deserves to be defamed.

I am really fucking incensed by this. To me, she is no different, no different at all, than the people who said after 9/11 that this was because the United States meddled in the Middle East, that it was an inevitable outcome.

107 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:27:39am

re: #101 Charles

Yes, she removed the reference, when I told her I was going to contact Forbes's editors. And she was NOT gracious about it -- accused me of "defaming" her with this post.

The truth is a bitch, eh Abby?

108 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:27:51am

BTW, She does a lot of writing against mulitculturalism. Has anybody searched the killer's manifesto for references to her articles?

109 allegro  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:28:19am

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

Phyllis Chesler, for one, has written about how honor killings are different from the Western brand of domestic violence.

She has some good points, in that patterns, stressors, and some other factors are culturally distinct.

I am bothered by two things about her analysis, one of which being that it feels to me as though she's almost dismissive about 'normal' domestic violence--as though being murdered by your boyfriend is somehow less disturbing than you being murdered by your brother-- and the other being that aside from one or two disclaimers she identifies it as a Muslim problem, ignoring the Hindu and Sikh names on the lists of victims that she attached to the article.

There may be some cultural distinctions on the surface but they all come down to 'do what I say/give me what I want or you will be punished with beating and/or death." There's always a "reason" for beating the hell out of women most often coming down to it being her fault. The nationality of the abuser and victim is just a footnote.

110 Olsonist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:30:01am

What's going right now is the Struggle for the Narrative.

The same thing happened after we killed OBL. Who was on the Sunday talk shows spieling about his BFFs in the SEALS? Karl Rove.

The Right Wing—that's David Brooks on down—is trying to muddy and confuse the water and push this story off the front page and regain control of the narrative. So rather than a little bit of soul searching, Esman just doubles down. She isn't in her words "defending or apologizing for the horrors of the terrorist attacks in Oslo." Esman is co-opting them.

111 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:31:31am

Her changes are odd.....

and he often cites posts from Pamela Geller’s Atlas Shrugged and other sites popular not only among anti-Islam activists, but among even more moderate types concerned about the rise of radical Islam in the West.


Whatever.

112 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:31:31am

re: #108 Killgore Trout

BTW, She does a lot of writing against mulitculturalism. Has anybody searched the killer's manifesto for references to her articles?

I found nothing. Just searched for her name(s) and the title of that book.

113 What, me worry?  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:32:33am

re: #101 Charles

Yes, she removed the reference, when I told her I was going to contact Forbes's editors. And she was NOT gracious about it -- accused me of "defaming" her with this post.

And duh... isn't she actually defaming YOU? Good grief.

114 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:32:43am

re: #92 Cannadian Club Akbar

Because we fuckin' rule.

New Meme:

"LGF, The Hyper-Sensitive Outrage Machine".

115 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:33:06am

re: #110 Olsonist

Exactly.

I've emailed three advertisers now, Porsche, Wirefly, and Cathay Pacific. I really urge everyone here to write to as many advertisers as they can. That is the way to get leverage over media publications.

116 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:34:17am

re: #109 allegro

There may be some cultural distinctions on the surface but they all come down to 'do what I say/give me what I want or you will be punished with beating and/or death." There's always a "reason" for beating the hell out of women most often coming down to it being her fault. The nationality of the abuser and victim is just a footnote.

The reason I think the cultural distinctions are important is that cops, social workers, etc. need to be familiar with the cultural patterns in order to protect women effectively. The deep down core is unpleasantly the same everywhere.

117 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:34:20am

re: #112 Gus 802

I found nothing. Just searched for her name(s) and the title of that book.

Yeah, it might be difficult because she writes for so many different outlets. Oh, well. I guess it's not terribly important anyways.

118 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:36:38am

re: #117 Killgore Trout

Yeah, it might be difficult because she writes for so many different outlets. Oh, well. I guess it's not terribly important anyways.

I still find it curious that she leaves out Spencer and instead limits it to Geller. Breivik does mention Spencer far more times than Geller in his manifesto.

119 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:36:50am

I've been seeing wingnuts reacting to this event by first insisting it was done by muslims - while simultaneously calling for the nuking of muslim countries - then, when the real story about the perpetrator broke, desperately trying to distance themselves from any sort of ideological connection with Breivik.

120 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:39:33am

OT
Amazing what water does to light and leaves close up. Really close up.

121 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:39:43am

re: #119 Jimmah

I've been seeing wingnuts reacting to this event by first insisting it was done by muslims - while simultaneously calling for the nuking of muslim countries - then, when the real story about the perpetrator broke, desperately trying to distance themselves from any sort of ideological connection with Breivik.

Reactionary extremism immediate followed by claims of non-reactionary extremism. The ideological, behavioral, genuflecting is almost classic.

122 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:40:00am

Now she demands that I delete this post.

123 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:40:11am

re: #119 Jimmah

But they can't, in the end, separate themselves. What is very clear is that these thoughts are simply one step further down the path. Just one. If their positions are sincere-- that the political systems of Europe are broken, that Islam stands poised to overrun them, that the liberals are traitors or useful idiots who are enabling this, and that if they succeed Europe will plunge into a dark age-- if their apocalyptic predictions are true and sincerely held, then actions like this are to be expected, are the logical step of what they preach.

For us here in the United States, this should be a chilling warning about the dangers of those on the right-wing calling Obama and others Marxists and accusing them of engineering the fall of the United States. If they really, really believe that, then the next logical outcome really is violence.

124 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:40:17am

re: #118 Gus 802

I still find it curious that she leaves out Spencer and instead limits it to Geller. Breivik does mention Spencer far more times than Geller in his manifesto.

Because Spenser maintains an air of academic credibility.

Which is a mirage.

125 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:40:30am

re: #122 Charles

Now she demands that I delete this post.

Oh boy.

126 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:40:35am

re: #119 Jimmah

Even the well respected Wired magazine (online) had to apologize for jumping to a ME terror conclusion. And they did not indulge any rash rhetoric.

127 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:40:51am

re: #122 Charles

Now she demands that I delete this post.

Tell her to complain to your editor, Stinky.

128 zora  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:41:11am

glad she removed the reference to lgf.

129 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:41:42am

re: #73 Gus 802

She's in cahoots with Robert Spencer. Obvious hit piece of some form or another. She should include herself in that list from what I've read thus far.

Man, the masks are slipping left and right. (Pun intended.)

130 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:41:46am

re: #127 Decatur Deb

Tell her to complain to your editor, Stinky.

Call my attorneys Dewey, Cheatem & Howe.

//

131 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:41:51am

re: #122 Charles

Now she demands that I delete this post.

You might mention that if she had done her job properly to begin with- as in verify what she wrote- she would not find herself in the position of being called out for her shoddy journalistic practice.

132 jaunte  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:41:58am

Even her demands are liberal demands.

133 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:42:05am

re: #122 Charles

Now she demands that I delete this post.

Who the hell does she think she is?? The nerve!

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:42:16am

The Norwegian cops are still calling him a Christian 'fundamentalist', which doesn't quite match what I'm seeing in the pieces of manifesto I've read. Do they not understand what it means, or does it mean something different in Northern Europe?

135 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:42:47am

re: #130 Gus 802

Call my attorneys Dewey, Cheatem & Howe.

//

Tappet fan?

136 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:42:51am

She's reading these comments, obviously, and complained that registration was closed, so I've opened it.

137 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:42:58am

re: #134 SanFranciscoZionist

It means whatever you want it to mean, that is the wonderful thing about it...

138 Olsonist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:43:17am

re: #122 Charles

Respecting that this is your blog and it is your email, you might want to publish the emails, yours and hers as an update to the post. I'd really like to read her tone.

139 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:43:52am

re: #28 Gus 802

This is interesting.

ESMAN: Honor killings spur my icky alliance with the right
When will liberal media admit that religion is killing American girls?

By Abigail R. Esman - The Washington Times

As is this:

These are not - as often is claimed - your standard cases of domestic abuse. Honor violence, unlike the domestic abuse we know, is often supported, sanctioned and even encouraged by the local Muslim community.

WTF? I'd like to see the proof to back up that assertion.

140 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:43:58am

re: #135 researchok

Tappet fan?

Whenever I get a chance. :)

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:44:04am

re: #126 Rightwingconspirator

Even the well respected Wired magazine (online) had to apologize for jumping to a ME terror conclusion. And they did not indulge any rash rhetoric.

It was my first thought, and it was an entirely reasonable conclusion, I think. I'm still somewhat astonished by what actually came to light.

Death toll has risen to 93. One of the injured died in hospital.

142 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:44:12am

re: #135 researchok

Tappet fan?

Got my TB coffee mug right here: "Our Greek tailor, Euripides Imendades."

143 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:44:16am

re: #120 Rightwingconspirator

OT
Amazing what water does to light and leaves close up. Really close up.

Sharp lens there, RWC.

144 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:44:20am

re: #134 SanFranciscoZionist

The Norwegian cops are still calling him a Christian 'fundamentalist', which doesn't quite match what I'm seeing in the pieces of manifesto I've read. Do they not understand what it means, or does it mean something different in Northern Europe?

Means something different.

Think Vlaams Belang 'Christian' Identity.

145 allegro  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:44:34am

re: #136 Charles

She's reading these comments, obviously, and complained that registration was closed, so I've opened it.

Did you include a welcoming invitation for her to come join in the discussion? That would be delightful.

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:44:47am

re: #137 ralphieboy

It means whatever you want it to mean, that is the wonderful thing about it...

Not really, fundamentalism is a pretty well-defined movement, AFAIK.

147 God of Binders with Women  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:45:12am

re: #145 allegro

Did you include a welcoming invitation for her to come join in the discussion? That would be delightful.

Now THAT would be the best birthday present so far!!!

148 Sionainn  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:45:42am

re: #122 Charles

Now she demands that I delete this post.

LOL! She's got a lot of nerve.

149 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:45:54am

re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist

Not really, fundamentalism is a pretty well-defined movement, AFAIK.

This guy seems more 'fundamentalist' like Mel Gibson. I doubt there's any actual branch of the church that he finds personally acceptable.

150 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:46:04am

re: #134 SanFranciscoZionist

The Norwegian cops are still calling him a Christian 'fundamentalist', which doesn't quite match what I'm seeing in the pieces of manifesto I've read. Do they not understand what it means, or does it mean something different in Northern Europe?

The context of Christian identity in Europe is more racial than religious.

151 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:46:05am

re: #126 Rightwingconspirator

Even the well respected Wired magazine (online) had to apologize for jumping to a ME terror conclusion. And they did not indulge any rash rhetoric.

They never learn. The day after the Oklahoma City bombing, a British tabloid ran the famous picture of a fireman carrying a dead child, with the blaring headline "In the name of Islam....."
I've been shot at and bombed by Islamic terrorists, something very few of these arm-chair commandos have ever experienced. Yet, I know not to jump to conclusions about a terrorist attack in the west. It is a simple matter of fact and history that not every terrorist is a jihadi. These days, more and more of them are not.

152 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:47:18am

Damn. BBIAM

153 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:47:34am

re: #150 researchok

The context of Christian identity in Europe is more racial than religious.

Well, as an American exceptionalist, I am proud that say that that is much stupider than the American version.

154 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:47:43am

re: #151 Shiplord Kirel

They never learn. The day after the Oklahoma City bombing, a British tabloid ran the famous picture of a fireman carrying a dead child, with the blaring headline "In the name of Islam..."
I've been shot at and bombed by Islamic terrorists, something very few of these arm-chair commandos have ever experienced. Yet, I know not to jump to conclusions about a terrorist attack in the west. It is a simple matter of fact and history that not every terrorist is a jihadi. These days, more and more of them are not.

Absolutely.

Terror for many has become an acceptable form of political expression

155 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:48:10am

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Her changes are odd...


Whatever.

Yeah lots of moderate reasonable people like to hang out at Atlas Shrugs. The graphics and pictures, and the non-stop right-wing screaming create a soothing yet erudite ambience that today's discerning blogophile values.

156 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:48:47am

re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist

Not really, fundamentalism is a pretty well-defined movement, AFAIK.


I have seen it bandied about in enough various contexts to seriously wsater down its meaning. There are those who insist it is because they base their beliefs on the "fundamental principles" of their religious scriptures, which in itself is open to a lot of leeway in how these principles are intperpreted and employed in daily life.

157 HAL2010  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:48:48am

Charles, send this post to the editors, and publish your email exchange.

She comes across as someone utterly nasty.

158 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:48:49am

re: #155 Jimmah

LOLOL

159 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:49:40am

re: #157 HAL2010

Charles, send this post to the editors, and publish your email exchange.

She comes across as someone utterly nasty.

I wonder how many other of her pieces have been so well researched.
//

160 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:49:46am

From the NYT, at today's service at the Lutheran cathedral in Oslo:

A minister told mourners packed into the pews under the cathedral’s chandeliered ceiling that “hate cannot triumph over love.” Hundreds of others gathered on a rain-swept plaza outside, where they left carpets of flowers and candles. “That is why we are holding one another today,” the minister said.

Tured Mong, a pensioner, said she had driven 40 miles with her husband to bring flowers from her garden and a candle she wanted to light. “I only want to lay them down here,” Ms. Mong said outside the cathedral. “I am sorry for all the parents waiting to find some news who don’t know about their children.”

Evy Andersen, from Oslo, brought a sunflower from her garden. “I have a niece who has been to this camp twice, and she has many friends who are missing. She is wondering about them. I did this for her and for myself.”

News reports spoke of immigrants arriving at the cathedral before the service to show respect for the dead. Lemeo Le, a refugee from Vietnam 21 years ago, said: “Norway helped the Vietnamese people to come here. They were very welcoming. I have a job and a family, and I wanted to come. It is very sad for all the young people.”

Borge Wilhemsen, a Labor Party activist, said he drove for five hours to be at the memorial service and brought his 6-year-old daughter. “You can’t take them away from everything,” he said, referring to his daughter. “They have to learn that life is sometimes hard. I have not told her everything. I told her that there were two big accidents.”

161 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:50:12am

re: #122 Charles

Now she demands that I delete this post.

Maybe she'll settle for a nice update thanking her for the correction. But I suppose what really pisses her off is our discussion about that 100 or so references to Robert Spencer that she somehow overlooked.

162 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:50:31am

re: #101 Charles

Yes, she removed the reference, when I told her I was going to contact Forbes's editors. And she was NOT gracious about it -- accused me of "defaming" her with this post.

If this post is defamatory, then why did she edit her story?

163 HAL2010  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:51:29am

re: #159 researchok

I wonder how many other of her pieces have been so well researched.
//

I am sure she has the highest standards and double checks everything she writes!

/

164 The Left  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:51:43am

For those who want to write off the Norway attacks as the work of a mentally ill individual with no connection to ideology:

“This may be the act of a lone, mad, paranoid individual,” said Hajo Funke, a political scientist at the Free University in Berlin who studies rightist extremism, referring to the right-wing fundamentalist Christian charged in connection with the killings, “but the far-right milieu creates an atmosphere that can lead such people down that path of violence.”

Best summary of the dyanamic I've seen so far.

165 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:51:59am

re: #162 CuriousLurker
Excellent question. I do not think she will answer.

166 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:52:08am

re: #162 CuriousLurker

If this post is defamatory, then why did she edit her story?

Because she has been busted.

Shew didn't verify or fact check, as one would expect from a journalist.

Her editors will be thrilled, no doubt.

167 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:52:49am

re: #122 Charles

Now she demands that I delete this post.

I hope she realizes that she's picking the wrong blog to try to bully.

re: #136 Charles

She's reading these comments, obviously, and complained that registration was closed, so I've opened it.

Good, let her come here and see how she defends herself.

168 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:52:55am

re: #123 Obdicut

But they can't, in the end, separate themselves. What is very clear is that these thoughts are simply one step further down the path. Just one. If their positions are sincere-- that the political systems of Europe are broken, that Islam stands poised to overrun them, that the liberals are traitors or useful idiots who are enabling this, and that if they succeed Europe will plunge into a dark age-- if their apocalyptic predictions are true and sincerely held, then actions like this are to be expected, are the logical step of what they preach.

They really do share the same paranoid fears and the same aims. For years these wingtards have been starting their sentences with "someone oughta"... (insert act of mass violence against the 'enemy' here). Well, "somebody" just did, and it's on those fuckwads.

169 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:52:58am

re: #164 iceweasel

For those who want to write off the Norway attacks as the work of a mentally ill individual with no connection to ideology:

Best summary of the dyanamic I've seen so far.

That is true of any extreme ideology.

170 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:53:20am

re: #143 Kid A

Thanks. Thinking of taking it out for a better trial up in the local mts today. I bought it to sharpen my jewelry photography. That's a pretty demanding market. But today, I can just enjoy it.

171 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:53:29am

re: #166 researchok

Because she has been busted.

Shew didn't verify or fact check, as one would expect from a journalist.

Her editors will be thrilled, no doubt.

An author does not always a journalist make.

//OK that kind of sounds like Yoda.

172 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:53:46am

re: #119 Jimmah

I've been seeing wingnuts reacting to this event by first insisting it was done by muslims - while simultaneously calling for the nuking of muslim countries - then, when the real story about the perpetrator broke, desperately trying to distance themselves from any sort of ideological connection with Breivik.

He is theirs. They need to step up and own him. Rhetorically, it is not too difficult to draw a distinction between method and motive. The right crazies could do this if they wanted to. But they don't want to. Why? Do they secretly not have that big a problem with Breivik's chosen method?

173 webevintage  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:53:52am

re: #122 Charles

Now she demands that I delete this post.

hahahahahaha
Well now this is getting entertaining.

174 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:54:14am

“Jihadwatch” is mentioned 155 times in the killer's manifesto according to the Stalkers. That's more than any other source. Even Fjordman only gets 111 mentions.

175 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:54:59am

re: #171 Gus 802

An author does not always a journalist make.

//OK that kind of sounds like Yoda.

Her credibility has certainly been diminished.

The Force is no longer with her.
/

176 Randall Gross  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:55:09am

The New right / White Nationalist blogs in Europe are throwing a lot of flack in the air to distract from this because they know that ultimately some of their populist pols are likely to get tarnished.

177 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:55:46am

re: #151 Shiplord Kirel


I've been shot at and bombed by Islamic terrorists, something very few of these arm-chair commandos have ever experienced. Yet, I know not to jump to conclusions about a terrorist attack in the west. It is a simple matter of fact and history that not every terrorist is a jihadi. These days, more and more of them are not.

Well thanks for stepping up. And yes, we all must learn to abide the 24hour rule. Calm sharpens the mind.

178 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:56:42am

re: #176 Thanos

The New right / White Nationalist blogs in Europe are throwing a lot of flack in the air to distract from this because they know that ultimately some of their populist pols are likely to get tarnished.


These people, not unlike the Tea Party, can only remain popular as long as they are all hat and no cattle: once the real consequencies of their ideologies become manifest, people will realize what sort of dangerous whack jobs they truly are

179 jaunte  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:56:46am

re: #167 CuriousLurker

Good, let her come here and see how she defends herself.


Suggesting that frustration with government policies makes it 'understandable' that a man kill 93 of his political opponents' children is indefensible.

180 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:56:47am

re: #176 Thanos

The New right / White Nationalist blogs in Europe are throwing a lot of flack in the air to distract from this because they know that ultimately some of their populist pols are likely to get tarnished.

Yes. Beware of the "Trojan horse" of the anti-multiculturalists.

That is rather ironic. Considering.

181 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:57:56am

re: #179 jaunte

Suggesting that frustration with government policies makes it 'understandable' that a man kill 93 of his political opponents' children is indefensible.

I believe this is what some in America would call a "Second-Amenment solution"...

182 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:58:13am

re: #179 jaunte

Suggesting that frustration with government policies makes it 'understandable' that a man kill 93 of his political opponents' children is indefensible.

Not to mention that by saying that this will happen again she is doing the work of a terrorist.

Seriously.

183 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:59:03am

re: #179 jaunte

Suggesting that frustration with government policies makes it 'understandable' that a man kill 93 of his political opponents' children is indefensible.

Damn straight.

184 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 10:59:32am

re: #169 researchok

He was not only NOT insane, he was soul chillingly, mind scaring sane and calculating.

These types are the ones that we have to worry about. Angry rhetoric, whipping people into a state of frenzy...then having a smart, educated calm and patient murderer take the next logical step.

185 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:00:28am

re: #181 ralphieboy
I rather use the 2nd Amendment to defend myself and my property and use my pen to "critique" others policies.

186 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:01:11am

re: #183 CuriousLurker

Damn straight.

Yes.

I don't care about her beliefs- she after ball, entitled to them.

What is outrageous is her using a bully pulpit to propagate falsehoods and then to threaten someone who busted her.

187 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:01:13am

re: #181 ralphieboy

I don't know anyone who would call this a second amendment solution. Usually that invokes protecting ones property or self, not mass murdering innocents.

188 jvic  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:01:33am

re: #136 Charles

She's reading these comments, obviously, and complained that registration was closed, so I've opened it.

Welcome, Abigail!

heh heh heh

189 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:01:40am

re: #185 PhillyPretzel

I rather use the 2nd Amendment to defend myself and my property and use my pen to "critique" others policies.


That is what the 2nd Amendment is supposed to protect, but it has unfortunately come to be used as a veiled threat of violence against anyone disagreeing with one's views.

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:02:19am

re: #172 Shiplord Kirel

He is theirs. They need to step up and own him. Rhetorically, it is not too difficult to draw a distinction between method and motive. The right crazies could do this if they wanted to. But they don't want to. Why? Do they secretly not have that big a problem with Breivik's chosen method?

Part of it, I think, is that the core audience for the anti-jihadis really likes to talk big, and say extreme things. Most of them would not enact their stated beliefs, because they are secretly well socialized, because they are cowards, or because they really don't feel threatened or endangered, they just want a fancy political cover for being bigots.

Right now they're being confronted with the fact that there are people out there who will, in fact, take up the Crusade quite literally. But they have no way of honestly saying "That is not what we meant, and you do not act in our name." So they revert to their usual mode: "We're being persecuted, and it was the liberals' fault anyway, if this even happened, which it probably didn't, and anyway, he was driven to it, and it's all a big set-up."

They have become the enemy they obsess over, and I mean the liberals and the jihadis both.

191 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:02:36am

Attention, anti-jihad blogs.

Supporting one's religion is laudable. That did not justify Osama bin Laden.

Defending the Second Amendment and demanding answers for Waco are worthy causes. That did not justify Tim McVeigh.

High school bullying is a problem that should be addressed. That did not justify Columbine.

If your cause is really so worthy, you can own Breivik and admit the obvious truth without tarring yourselves in the process. Denying that Breivik adhered to your cause only makes you seem dishonest, and brings your real objectives into question.

192 Sionainn  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:03:07am

re: #187 brownbagj

I don't know anyone who would call this a second amendment solution. Usually that invokes protecting ones property or self, not mass murdering innocents.

Sharron Angle comes to mind.

193 zora  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:03:13am

re: #179 jaunte

Suggesting that frustration with government policies makes it 'understandable' that a man kill 93 of his political opponents' children is indefensible.

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Former Bush Official Places Blame For Oslo Attack On Norwegians For Not Being ‘Serious’ About Terrorism

anyone making excuses for this pyscho breivik can aspire to one day be a pos.

194 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:03:38am

re: #189 ralphieboy
I guess she never used a "soap box."

195 What, me worry?  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:04:08am

I'm confounded about her article so soon after this horrible tragedy. The whole thing can be summed up to "This was a terrible tragedy, but it happened because of multiculturalism."

Never mind that Breviak's online manifesto had many slides mocking political correctness and multiculturalism.

When one rails against "multiculturalism", one rails against diversity.

When one rails against diversity, one rails against minorities.

When one rails against minorities, what do you call that?

196 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:04:28am

re: #191 Shiplord Kirel

Attention, anti-jihad blogs.

Supporting one's religion is laudable. That did not justify Osama bin Laden.

Defending the Second Amendment and demanding answers for Waco are worthy causes. That did not justify Tim McVeigh.

High school bullying is a problem that should be addressed. That did not justify Columbine.

If your cause is really so worthy, you can own Breivik and admit the obvious truth without tarring yourselves in the process. Denying that Breivik adhered to your cause only makes you seem dishonest, and brings your real objectives into question.

QFT

197 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:04:54am

re: #190 SanFranciscoZionist

Part of it, I think, is that the core audience for the anti-jihadis really likes to talk big, and say extreme things. Most of them would not enact their stated beliefs, because they are secretly well socialized, because they are cowards, or because they really don't feel threatened or endangered, they just want a fancy political cover for being bigots.

Right now they're being confronted with the fact that there are people out there who will, in fact, take up the Crusade quite literally. But they have no way of honestly saying "That is not what we meant, and you do not act in our name." So they revert to their usual mode: "We're being persecuted, and it was the liberals' fault anyway, if this even happened, which it probably didn't, and anyway, he was driven to it, and it's all a big set-up."

They have become the enemy they obsess over, and I mean the liberals and the jihadis both.

Spot on.

Each tries to outdo the others.

Morons.

198 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:05:02am

re: #193 zora

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Former Bush Official Places Blame For Oslo Attack On Norwegians For Not Being ‘Serious’ About Terrorism

anyone making excuses for this pyscho breivik can aspire to one day be a pos.

Face palm. Being serious how? By profiling the way they're always calling to profile "terrorists"? By looking for men "of Arab appearance" and Muslims? Seriously, the man needs to sit down and shut up.

199 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:05:06am

re: #187 brownbagj

I don't know anyone who would call this a second amendment solution. Usually that invokes protecting ones property or self, not mass murdering innocents.


The "Second Amendment remedies" quote goes back to Sharron Angle, who used it as a veiled threat against the government:

"... if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around?"

200 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:05:21am

re: #178 ralphieboy

These people, not unlike the Tea Party, can only remain popular as long as they are all hat and no cattle: once the real consequencies of their ideologies become manifest, people will realize what sort of dangerous whack jobs they truly are

That's true, for now, and in places that are not jaded to such violence, such as Norway and Europe in general. It may not be true for very long.

After all, Oklahoma City was in 1995. Conservative Cult rhetoric has only escalated since then.

201 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:05:34am

re: #192 Sionainn

True, but seriously, and I live in the south, grew up in the south and almost everyone I know owns many, many guns - none advocate violence in politics.

All advocate protection of home and family - but that's it. All say that they would rather run from a fight that ever have to shoot anyone, so I can't see tarring "second amendment solution" with an act such as this.

But, my opinion and 25 cents will get you a piece of chewing gum.

202 The Left  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:05:45am

re: #195 marjoriemoon


When one rails against minorities, what do you call that?

The GOP 2012 platform?

203 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:05:47am

re: #182 Obdicut

Not to mention that by saying that this will happen again she is doing the work of a terrorist.

Seriously.

She's trying, but fails, because for once in my life I'm going to speak for the whole Western world: "We defeated the Nazis once, and some scum who think they count as Knights Templar don't even rate. We will not give in to their demands, we will not surrender, and if need be, we will fight jihad with one hand, neo-Nazi terrorists with the other, and head-butt anyone else who wants in on the fight. Any questions?"

204 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:05:56am

Hey, Miss/Ms Esman?

Registration is open. Feel free to join us in discussion here.

205 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:07:18am

re: #195 marjoriemoon

I'm confounded about her article so soon after this horrible tragedy. The whole thing can be summed up to "This was a terrible tragedy, but it happened because of multiculturalism."

"Multiculturalism" is another one of those phrases taht is too vague for its own good. I have no problem with multi-culturalism when it comes to food, dance, music, fashion, lifestyles, etc.

But when it comes to our laws and constitutional rights, then I am rather chauvanistic...

206 sagehen  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:07:25am

re: #151 Shiplord Kirel

They never learn. The day after the Oklahoma City bombing, a British tabloid ran the famous picture of a fireman carrying a dead child, with the blaring headline "In the name of Islam..."
I've been shot at and bombed by Islamic terrorists, something very few of these arm-chair commandos have ever experienced. Yet, I know not to jump to conclusions about a terrorist attack in the west. It is a simple matter of fact and history that not every terrorist is a jihadi. These days, more and more of them are not.

My formative years were in the late 60's, early 70's, and I knew a lot of Mexicans -- it took a very long time for me to stop instantly assuming every act of terrorism was Puerto Rican separatists.

207 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:07:25am

re: #198 Gus 802

Face palm. Being serious how? By profiling the way they're always calling to profile "terrorists"? By looking for men "of Arab appearance" and Muslims? Seriously, the man needs to sit down and shut up.

Indeed.
"Attention all units! Be on the look out for a David Duchovny look alike terrorist. Or something."
/

208 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:07:25am

So, her and others whole point can be boiled down to "Look what YOU made us do."

Really?

209 What, me worry?  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:08:42am

re: #202 iceweasel

The GOP 2012 platform?

Yea, no kidding.

210 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:08:46am

re: #207 Varek Raith

Indeed.
"Attention all units! Be on the look out for a David Duchovny look alike terrorist. Or something."
/

In this case then the TSA is partially on the right track.

211 Sionainn  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:09:26am

re: #201 brownbagj

True, but seriously, and I live in the south, grew up in the south and almost everyone I know owns many, many guns - none advocate violence in politics.

All advocate protection of home and family - but that's it. All say that they would rather run from a fight that ever have to shoot anyone, so I can't see tarring "second amendment solution" with an act such as this.

But, my opinion and 25 cents will get you a piece of chewing gum.

I get what you are saying. I know plenty of responsible gunowners myself who would never advocate violence. However, Sharron Angle said it, and what she said seems to point directly to this kind of outrageous murderous atrocity.

212 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:09:44am

re: #208 brownbagj

So, her and others whole point can be boiled down to "Look what YOU made us do."

Really?

Which, speaking of honor killings, is the classic statement of domestic violence.

213 Spocomptonite  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:09:53am

re: #122 Charles

Now she demands that I delete this post.

WTF why?

Her article was defaming of Muslims, but she's not going to remove it.

214 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:09:53am

re: #207 Varek Raith

Or, anyone who has a douche pseudo beard.

215 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:09:59am

re: #202 iceweasel

The GOP 2012 platform?

Herman Cain. I'm sure he would have loved Breivik's manifesto before 7/22.

216 zora  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:10:35am

re: #199 ralphieboy

the next sentence was:

I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out.

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

217 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:11:02am

re: #211 Sionainn

Agreed. I would agree that those who whip the populace into a frenzy cannot stand back and say, "We didn't mean take it that far."

Own up to it, or shut up.

218 Olsonist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:11:19am

re: #190 SanFranciscoZionist

... They have become the enemy they obsess over, and I mean the liberals and the jihadis both.


You lost me on the liberals phrase. Can you try explaining that? I get the fact that the anti-jihadis are morphing into their enemy. It's almost a trope. I didn't get your liberals phrase though.

219 What, me worry?  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:11:24am

re: #205 ralphieboy

"Multiculturalism" is another one of those phrases taht is too vague for its own good. I have no problem with multi-culturalism when it comes to food, dance, music, fashion, lifestyles, etc.

But when it comes to our laws and constitutional rights, then I am rather chauvanistic...

I don't understand that. Our constitution protects EVERYONE.

Multiculturalism is a buzzword because no one wants to be called a racist. There is nothing wrong with "multiculturalism". Not a fucking thing. We are a teeny tiny world and we better start learning how to live together.

220 Randall Gross  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:12:22am

How many points in Breivik's manifesto match up with Phillip DeWinter's 70-point plan? How many match up with LePen's "50 Measures to help manage the problems of Immigrants"?
The rise of modern Era Nieuw Recht Nationalism in Europe started with the Maastricht treaty, then morphed to Anti-Turkey entry, and then changed again to full bore anti muslim hate post 9/11. Europe is where Koran burning originated, it's where the anti mosque movement started, it's where the white nationalist hate disguised as "counter jihad" first sprouted. 100 percent of the points made in Breivik's manifesto can be found mirrored at Jihad Watch, Gates of Vienna, and Atlas Shrugs....

221 sagehen  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:12:34am

re: #168 Jimmah

They really do share the same paranoid fears and the same aims. For years these wingtards have been starting their sentences with "someone oughta"... (insert act of mass violence against the 'enemy' here). Well, "somebody" just did, and it's on those fuckwads.

in that vein... has Ann Coulter had anything to say? She does frequently suggest this is what should happen to liberals.

222 zora  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:12:38am

re: #201 brownbagj

folks like this have a different meaning.

Tea Party Republican warns that the next step after 'the ballot box' is 'the bullet box'

[Link: crooksandliars.com...]

223 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:12:51am

Repost:

Last night I was looking through Fjordman's (aka Baron Bodissey) "work" and came across this hysterical gem of insanity:

The Coming Crash - Sunday, November 22, 2009 (Cached Link)

Here are some highlights:

• I would rank Britain as the Western European country most likely to first get a civil war caused by mass immigration and Multiculturalism.

• There will be a pan-Western and perhaps international economic and social collapse in the not-too-distant future.

• We need to learn from our enemies, both internal and external...They must be squashed, otherwise we cannot deal rationally and adequately with our external enemies.

• We must get rid of Feminism, which is destructive and merely an extension of Marxism, anyway.

• We must document what is being done to us by treasonous elites for future references, for instance by making a video dedicated to anti-white verbal and physical violence around the world. We must take steps to ensure our physical safety and regain pride in our heritage.

• The current US President Obama has publicly pledged himself to combat opposition to Islam rather than Islam itself, which means that it is official US policy to spread Islamic law.

• If the Soviet Union was the Evil Empire then the USA is the Diversity Empire, committed to spreading Multiculturalism and genetic Communism around the world, especially to white majority countries.

• The United States will not survive this century. It will be split into several countries according to ethnic, racial and perhaps even ideological lines. There is no such thing as a universal nation. People want to live with their own kind. The only ones who are not allowed to do so are whites, and they are starting to get tired of this double standard.

• Anti-white ideologies are now taught in every Western university and were arguably elevated to national ideology in the USA with the election of Obama.

Notice the similarities [with Breivik]?

224 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:13:44am

re: #195 marjoriemoon

I'm confounded about her article so soon after this horrible tragedy. The whole thing can be summed up to "This was a terrible tragedy, but it happened because of multiculturalism."

Never mind that Breviak's online manifesto had many slides mocking political correctness and multiculturalism.

When one rails against "multiculturalism", one rails against diversity.

When one rails against diversity, one rails against minorities.

When one rails against minorities, what do you call that?

A Country-Western bar here in alabama.

225 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:13:47am

re: #195 marjoriemoon

I'm confounded about her article so soon after this horrible tragedy. The whole thing can be summed up to "This was a terrible tragedy, but it happened because of multiculturalism."

Never mind that Breviak's online manifesto had many slides mocking political correctness and multiculturalism.

When one rails against "multiculturalism", one rails against diversity.

When one rails against diversity, one rails against minorities.

When one rails against minorities, what do you call that?

Her argument is sophomoric at best.

When she speaks of multiculturalism, she isn't addressing the issues in the same way as Merkel and Sarkozy, for example.

Esman sees the problem as one of the lack of assimilation by some groups. This indicates her misunderstanding of what much of the European issues there are with immigrants.

Assimilation is a choice. One camn assimilate as much or as little asone wishes to. The Amish, Mennonites, Hasidim all have chosen to hardly assimilate at all. That is their right.

The real issue is one of integration, that is, abiding by the rules a nation has set for itself, rules that provide both order and relief from chaos.

In some cultures, red is a taboo color. Nevertheless, we all agree to stop at red lights. We agree to stand in line and not push our way forward as is done in many places.

Amish, Mennonites and Hasidim all pay their taxes.

These are examples of integrating into a society. There are thousands of others. To demand assimilation is a recipe for disaster.

226 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:13:52am

re: #219 marjoriemoon

Agreed that there is nothing wrong with multiculturalism.

But, societies do need to "blend." Not lose their identity, but also try to become one with the populace. Otherwise, people get isolated, they tend to become less educated of the ways of their new country and ultimately become relegated to the shadows.

227 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:14:12am

re: #218 Olsonist

You lost me on the liberals phrase. Can you try explaining that? I get the fact that the anti-jihadis are morphing into their enemy. It's almost a trope. I didn't get your liberals phrase though.

Yeah, that probably wasn't too clear. I actually meant that they are developing the traits they accuse liberals of having--moral relativism, disavowing responsibility and blaming society, identity politics...they sound like they claim liberals sound.

228 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:14:42am

re: #224 Decatur Deb

We have both kinds of music. Country and Western.

/

229 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:15:16am

re: #212 SanFranciscoZionist

Which, speaking of honor killings, is the classic statement of domestic violence.

It's the classic statement of every freaking bully from fascist dictators, to terrorists, to domestic abusers, right on down to 10-year-old school playground thugs.

230 What, me worry?  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:15:16am

re: #224 Decatur Deb

A Country-Western bar here in alabama.

lol You're so cute. I just wanna hug ya.

231 brownbagj  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:16:27am

re: #222 zora

And again, those who say that should own up the carnage they incite, or shut up.

They cannot and should not be allowed to have it both ways.

232 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:16:46am

re: #219 marjoriemoon

I don't understand that. Our constitution protects EVERYONE.

Multiculturalism is a buzzword because no one wants to be called a racist. There is nothing wrong with "multiculturalism". Not a fucking thing. We are a teeny tiny world and we better start learning how to live together.

Multiculturalism is a fact on the ground. You can fight bitterly about this or that academic's beliefs about it, but basically, it's life in the big city. And has been for a very long time.

233 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:17:42am

From butthurt wingnut to terrorist in 30 seconds. It finally happened.

234 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:18:28am

Multiculturalism is fine as long as cultures are compatible. Multiculturalism should not tolerate oppression of women and other groups merely because some culture has such a tradition. Not all cultures are equal.

235 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:19:06am

re: #220 Thanos

How many points in Breivik's manifesto match up with Phillip DeWinter's 70-point plan? How many match up with LePen's "50 Measures to help manage the problems of Immigrants"?

Good question. It would be interesting (though probably not surprising) to actually do a comparison.

236 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:20:22am

re: #225 researchok

Her argument is sophomoric at best.

When she speaks of multiculturalism, she isn't addressing the issues in the same way as Merkel and Sarkozy, for example.

Esman sees the problem as one of the lack of assimilation by some groups. This indicates her misunderstanding of what much of the European issues there are with immigrants.

Assimilation is a choice. One camn assimilate as much or as little asone wishes to. The Amish, Mennonites, Hasidim all have chosen to hardly assimilate at all. That is their right.

The real issue is one of integration, that is, abiding by the rules a nation has set for itself, rules that provide both order and relief from chaos.

In some cultures, red is a taboo color. Nevertheless, we all agree to stop at red lights. We agree to stand in line and not push our way forward as is done in many places.

Amish, Mennonites and Hasidim all pay their taxes.

These are examples of integrating into a society. There are thousands of others. To demand assimilation is a recipe for disaster.

Ah, but that assumes that you can stand the idea of having these people looking different and eating different and doing things differently, and being an orderly part of your society.

Some people simply can't cope.

Not only Tea Party types. I've had some conversations with people who would define themselves as quite progressive, who get genuinely agitated about the Hasidim.

237 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:22:06am

re: #234 Sergey Romanov

Multiculturalism is fine as long as cultures are compatible. Multiculturalism should not tolerate oppression of women and other groups merely because some culture has such a tradition. Not all cultures are equal.

Right. Multiculturalism comes, or should come, with some assimilation as it has in the USA for most its history. Of course, as a free country, immigrants are not legally compelled to assimilate 100 percent with an average norm. Many of us stray from those norms and could be said as not being fully assimilated to a statistical norm. I could be said to be a person who is not 100 percent assimilated based on my own personal beliefs.

238 Randall Gross  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:24:05am

FWIW here's Esman talking about her book, not sure if she's more in the Pim Fortuyn fan crowd in the Netherlands, or the Geert Wilders fanbase, probably more likely the latter at this point.

239 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:24:09am

re: #237 Gus 802

I think assimilation is the wrong word. Assimilation is a loss of a previous ethnic identity. Jews become Russians, Poles become Germans, etc. One can't demand this of anyone. What should be there is integration.

240 What, me worry?  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:24:16am

re: #225 researchok

re: #226 brownbagj

It is my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Europe hasn't done enough to keep the hoodlums out of their countries through their immigration policies nor make them beholden to their laws. I think most of these Muslims want a life of freedom in a Democratic country and to live peacefully. We have managed that in this country, although I wouldn't use the Amish and Quakers as examples of assimilation. They aren't immigrants. Immigrants in this country do assimilate and yet find a way to keep their culture simultaneously. More than that, they WANT to be Americans. I live in a huge multicultural city, Miami so I see it every day.

241 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:24:29am

re: #236 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah, but that assumes that you can stand the idea of having these people looking different and eating different and doing things differently, and being an orderly part of your society.

Some people simply can't cope.

Not only Tea Party types. I've had some conversations with people who would define themselves as quite progressive, who get genuinely agitated about the Hasidim.

Do they get that worked up about the Amish? Or Hindus? Or Muslims women who choose to wear identifiable clothing?

Regardless, it is none of their business.

We have no business demanding Muslims assimilate than we do asking Hasidim or Amish or Hindus to assimilate.

Can we demand they and everyone else integrate? Absolutely, but that is a far cry from assimilation as I noted above.

242 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:25:17am

re: #237 Gus 802

Right. Multiculturalism comes, or should come, with some assimilation as it has in the USA for most its history. Of course, as a free country, immigrants are not legally compelled to assimilate 100 percent with an average norm. Many of us stray from those norms and could be said as not being fully assimilated to a statistical norm. I could be said to be a person who is not 100 percent assimilated based on my own personal beliefs.

See my 225

243 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:25:50am

re: #234 Sergey Romanov

Multiculturalism is fine as long as cultures are compatible. Multiculturalism should not tolerate oppression of women and other groups merely because some culture has such a tradition. Not all cultures are equal.

Multiculturalism is not a legal term.

But what does it mean to 'tolerate the oppression of women'? Forced marriages and spousal abuse are against the law, but beyond that, what amount of control can society as whole reasonably be allowed to have?

Real question.

244 jvic  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:25:58am

re: #227 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, that probably wasn't too clear. I actually meant that they are developing the traits they accuse liberals of having--moral relativism, disavowing responsibility and blaming society, identity politics...they sound like they claim liberals sound.

Funny you should say that. Esman's piece reminds me of what conservatives say are the ploys of leftist commentators. This incident is regrettable...terrible...but etc etc etc

245 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:26:32am

re: #239 Sergey Romanov

I think assimilation is the wrong word. Assimilation is a loss of a previous ethnic identity. Jews become Russians, Poles become Germans, etc. One can't demand this of anyone. What should be there is integration.

re: #242 researchok

See my 225

OK. Thanks for the correction and insight. Strike assimilation and insert integration.

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:27:20am

re: #241 researchok

Do they get that worked up about the Amish? Or Hindus? Or Muslims women who choose to wear identifiable clothing?

Regardless, it is none of their business.

We have no business demanding Muslims assimilate than we do asking Hasidim or Amish or Hindus to assimilate.

Can we demand they and everyone else integrate? Absolutely, but that is a far cry from assimilation as I noted above.

The distinction is an important one--thanks for bringing the right words in.

247 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:28:18am

re: #241 researchok

Do they get that worked up about the Amish? Or Hindus? Or Muslims women who choose to wear identifiable clothing?

Regardless, it is none of their business.

We have no business demanding Muslims assimilate than we do asking Hasidim or Amish or Hindus to assimilate.

Can we demand they and everyone else integrate? Absolutely, but that is a far cry from assimilation as I noted above.

And no, mostly they focus on the Jews, and when I ask why, they have trouble explaining, but it comes down to a core belief that 'normal Jews' are like the suburban Reformim they grew up next door to.

248 allegro  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:28:24am

re: #243 SanFranciscoZionist

Multiculturalism is not a legal term.

But what does it mean to 'tolerate the oppression of women'? Forced marriages and spousal abuse are against the law, but beyond that, what amount of control can society as whole reasonably be allowed to have?

Real question.

I think all we can demand is adherence to our laws. What we can do as citizens is provide a supportive network to women who choose to get out.

249 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:28:35am

re: #240 marjoriemoon

re: #226 brownbagj

It is my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Europe hasn't done enough to keep the hoodlums out of their countries through their immigration policies nor make them beholden to their laws. I think most of these Muslims want a life of freedom in a Democratic country and to live peacefully. We have managed that in this country, although I wouldn't use the Amish and Quakers as examples of assimilation. They aren't immigrants. Immigrants in this country do assimilate and yet find a way to keep their culture simultaneously. More than that, they WANT to be Americans. I live in a huge multicultural city, Miami so I see it every day.

In a nutshell, the real problem is one of integration, not assimilation.

There are elements in may immigrant societies who advocate the idea that their groups are excepted from various laws of the land and that they are somehow more privileged than others of different groups.

250 Spocomptonite  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:29:03am

re: #83 Obdicut

I sent in a similar one asking why forbes was now publishing articles advocating adoption of a madman's xenophobic views so madmen won't commit terrorism anymore, because as a global corporation they couldn't possibly believe that themselves.

251 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:30:14am

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

And no, mostly they focus on the Jews, and when I ask why, they have trouble explaining, but it comes down to a core belief that 'normal Jews' are like the suburban Reformim they grew up next door to.

And these iconoclasts wonder why we are a materialistic, label conscious culture.
/

252 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:30:43am

re: #243 SanFranciscoZionist

First of all, this concerns not only people already in the country, but also people who might one day arrive. I.e. immigration policy should have a cultural component. How to implement it without "throwing the baby with the bathwater"? Above my paygrade.

As for domestic policy - case by case. When problems arise, solutions should be found, like e.g. seeing if people are forced by the community (by extreme peer pressure or otherwise) to do something against their will, like coming before quasijudicial organs or wearing certain clothes against their will, and then according measures can be enforced.

253 What, me worry?  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:32:05am

re: #241 researchok

Do they get that worked up about the Amish? Or Hindus? Or Muslims women who choose to wear identifiable clothing?

Regardless, it is none of their business.

We have no business demanding Muslims assimilate than we do asking Hasidim or Amish or Hindus to assimilate.

Can we demand they and everyone else integrate? Absolutely, but that is a far cry from assimilation as I noted above.

I'm confused at you using the Amish as an example. They aren't immigrants. They've been here forever and are not immigrating to this country.

Cubans, Mexicans, Haitians, South and Central Americans etc. These are immigrants.

It's not that we demand they assimilate. Our laws require them to. Remember the bruhaha at the Minnesota airport (I think it was MN) where Muslim cabbies refused to transport people who carried liquor? Perfect example of the cultural clash, but it was resolved, do largely in part to the MUSLIMS already living here who told them they couldn't do that.

254 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:32:08am

re: #248 allegro

I think all we can demand is adherence to our laws. What we can do as citizens is provide a supportive network to women who choose to get out.

Or to create change from within.

(And men, too, damnit. This is not an American or European example, but I read an article a while back about the first Israeli Bedouin woman to get an advanced degree. The tribe was proud when she finished high school. The tribe was pleased when she went on to get a college degree, although they wished she'd get married. The tribe started to rumble when she enrolled for the doctorate.

There were threats. There was pressure on her father. Her father, God bless the man, sat down with all his cousins and explained kindly that this was his daughter, and she was going to do what he wanted her to do, not what they wanted her to do, and that was finish her PhD. And that they could put up or shut up because he was armed to the teeth.

Not exactly what we mean here in the Bay Area when we say 'feminist ally', but it worked.)

255 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:32:36am

Looks like she decided to not stop in and say hello.

256 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:33:45am

re: #252 Sergey Romanov

First of all, this concerns not only people already in the country, but also people who might one day arrive. I.e. immigration policy should have a cultural component. How to implement it without "throwing the baby with the bathwater"? Above my paygrade.

As for domestic policy - case by case. When problems arise, solutions should be found, like e.g. seeing if people are forced by the community (by extreme peer pressure or otherwise) to do something against their will, like coming before quasijudicial organs or wearing certain clothes against their will, and then according measures can be enforced.

Sure, that makes sense. It's very complicated to enforce, though, and hard to define. We have to do the best we can.

(Witness the FLDS mess. They can live on a gated ranch and dress like Little House on the Prairie if they wish. When there was a question of forced and underage marriages, the cops got involved.)

257 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:33:48am

re: #253 marjoriemoon

I'm confused at you using the Amish as an example. They aren't immigrants. They've been here forever and are not immigrating to this country.

Cubans, Mexicans, Haitians, South and Central Americans etc. These are immigrants.

It's not that we demand they assimilate. Our laws require them to. Remember the bruhaha at the Minnesota airport (I think it was MN) where Muslim cabbies refused to transport people who carried liquor? Perfect example of the cultural clash, but it was resolved, do largely in part to the MUSLIMS already living here who told them they couldn't do that.

True, they are not immigrants.

However, they have chosen to isolate themselves in the same way as many (but not all) immigrant groups have.

258 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:34:58am

re: #255 Killgore Trout

Looks like she decided to not stop in and say hello.

It would appear she did not expect to be surrounded by people smarter than she is.

// not so much

259 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:35:11am

re: #256 SanFranciscoZionist

It's very complicated to enforce, though, and hard to define. We have to do the best we can.

Eh, I know. And how not to cross the line between trying to uphold the progressive values and bigotry. Questions, questions.

260 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:35:34am

re: #252 Sergey Romanov

As for domestic policy - case by case. When problems arise, solutions should be found, like e.g. seeing if people are forced by the community (by extreme peer pressure or otherwise) to do something against their will, like coming before quasijudicial organs or wearing certain clothes against their will, and then according measures can be enforced.

That sounds like something that would be extremely difficult to implement. How would you go about discovering this info? From the victim? From concerned parties? If the latter, I can see a LOT of problems.

261 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:36:02am

re: #260 CuriousLurker

I see them too.

262 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:37:01am

re: #255 Killgore Trout

Looks like she decided to not stop in and say hello.

Imagine that. //

263 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:37:32am

re: #253 marjoriemoon

I'm confused at you using the Amish as an example. They aren't immigrants. They've been here forever and are not immigrating to this country.

Cubans, Mexicans, Haitians, South and Central Americans etc. These are immigrants.

It's not that we demand they assimilate. Our laws require them to. Remember the bruhaha at the Minnesota airport (I think it was MN) where Muslim cabbies refused to transport people who carried liquor? Perfect example of the cultural clash, but it was resolved, do largely in part to the MUSLIMS already living here who told them they couldn't do that.

Actually, our laws require them to integrate, that is to accept the social compacts that define this nation.

They are free to dress as they please, speak any language they please and as long as minimal curriculum demands are met, they can teach as they please.

264 What, me worry?  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:41:17am

re: #257 researchok

True, they are not immigrants.

However, they have chosen to isolate themselves in the same way as many (but not all) immigrant groups have.

No offense, but it's not a good example :) If the Amish all of a sudden decide to do honor killings or otherwise commit terrible felonies, they would be stopped.

I live with countless amounts of immigrants and don't see that kind of isolation. Sure, they stuff a pig every year on Christmas (Cuban tradition) and start their day with a cafe cubano, but they are every bit American as you and I.

265 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:44:33am

re: #264 marjoriemoon

No offense, but it's not a good example :) If the Amish all of a sudden decide to do honor killings or otherwise commit terrible felonies, they would be stopped.

I live with countless amounts of immigrants and don't see that kind of isolation. Sure, they stuff a pig every year on Christmas (Cuban tradition) and start their day with a cafe cubano, but they are every bit American as you and I.

All true- but those are choices people make.

Further, I never said immigrants were less American. In fact, they can exercise the choice to assimilate as much or as little as they want precisely because they are American.

My point has been to distinguish between assimilation and integration.

266 Mark Pennington  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:47:41am

re: #255 Killgore Trout

Looks like she decided to not stop in and say hello.

It pissed me off enough to come out of seclusion. I hope everyone is doing as Obdicut suggesting and firing off emails to Forbes. I just did! Lumping LGF in with those vile bigots is ludicrous! Blaming multiculturalism is nauseating and they need to be called on it.

267 What, me worry?  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:56:57am

re: #265 researchok

All true- but those are choices people make.

Further, I never said immigrants were less American. In fact, they can exercise the choice to assimilate as much or as little as they want precisely because they are American.

My point has been to distinguish between assimilation and integration.

Sorry, I have a raging headache and need to take a break.

I think we actually agree, but are talking past each other. Semantics... I don't really see the difference between those words. Maybe because the "American experiment" has worked so well while the European experiment hasn't. To me, it has to be based in law.

I'll be back.

268 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:06:01pm

re: #266 beekiller

Nice to see you back. I was wondering what happened to you...

269 Mark Pennington  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:08:16pm

re: #268 Charles

Nice to see you back. I was wondering what happened to you...

Bad things and then it turned into good things. I'm back now. :) Don't mess with LGF, bitches!

270 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:18:48pm

I know I'm late to the discusion but, the conclusion of Esman's piece remains:

Breivik has simply taken a different approach: he attacked what he sees as the enablers — frustrated, perhaps, by a failure to vote them out of power. It is a new form of protest, and he is the first to use it. But I fear that, unless Europe begins demanding that its Muslim population live according to its Enlightenment traditions and the values of democracy, he will not be the last.

Emphasis mine.

No...It's not "new"--it's a "form of protest" called terrorism...where you threaten, frighten, and kill people to command compliance with one's political goals. Then you make demands contigent on disobediance resulting in "punishment" via another attack on the civilian populace.

That the author is trying to create a walk-around...this time, the terrorist is addressing the right issue, so we should comply with his demands--with less dead civilians as added bonus...is just foul. Is she just blind to the parity is this statement with proclaimations by actual mouthpieces of terrorism? For, be it the IRA, Hamas, Scott Roeder, or the Weather Underground...terrorist actors always have a rhetorical front special pleading that their act of murder and random violence is justified by context and cause.

I'm not a fully deontological moralist, but I feel there are certain things you don't get to hand-wave to situationality...hurting kids, hurting civilians, violence that harms random people. I don't care what your cause is, you have no moral grounding and have lost your place at the discussion of the issue (especially if thee and I are in nominal agreement).

I don't care how noble or wise your ends are if your means are so callous. More than that, actually: as both a moral instinct and a trend in history, I would assert that anyone who justify any action in the name of their cause will never attain it, and quite likely is moved more by the authoritarian drive to dominate than by a specific ideological motive.

271 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:28:58pm

re: #270 The Ghost of a Flea

It's a repellent argument, I agree -- I didn't even get into this in my post, but the whole premise is twisted. That's another reason why I was unhappy to be cited in it, even apart from the fact that the citation was flat wrong.

272 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:06:25pm

re: #234 Sergey Romanov

Multiculturalism is fine as long as cultures are compatible. Multiculturalism should not tolerate oppression of women and other groups merely because some culture has such a tradition. Not all cultures are equal.

On a basic level I agree, but I'm to put on my anthropologist hat and quibble. My counter proposed statement would be:

"Not all activites justified by culture are equal, and some should be opposed regardless of multiculturalism or cultural relativism."

The danger of the basic proposition "not all cultures are equal (because of immoral/inappropriate practices)" is that culture at the best of times is a spongey overarching construct that belies the variablity and plasticity on the ground. The tricky part is determining at what fractionation the culture-as-population has responsibility for the actions of individuals.

How many people in a cultural complex have to participate in an unacceptable practice before collective responsibility kicks in? What if an unnacceptable practice is something cited in written tradition like scripture, but isn't actually practiced uniformly by the adherents of said scripture? What about encoded traditions that are subject to debated meaning--like, say, Halakah or Shariah, where there is a formal discussion of meaning, and thus of culture--and thus there exist multiple practices all viewed as customarily proper? More complexly, there's the issue of differentiation of banality versus enshrinement: lots of ugly stuff goes on in the world that is emically unacceptable, but no-one stops it because they don't feel responsible or don't feel they have legitimate agency.

Trickiest of all is willful appropriation of traditional/cultural memes as camoflauge or post-justification for individual actions. Is a man beating his wife because of his understanding of Leviticus, or is that what he tells other to justify himself? Was that honor killings really a matter of honor, or botched domestic violence?

[NB: A real life thing I'm familiar with through my family in PK: the concept of "honor killing" is often used post-event to justify a rape concealed by a murder. More horrifyingly, it's also is used as a threat to stop reporting of sexual abuse inside the extended family unit. Hence my ambivalance about the surface-deep analysis of the phenomenon in American sources: honor-killing is a repulsive cultural practice that needs to be resisted, but part of its repugnance stems from the shade it provides for individual crimes.]

And finally--and I emphatically don't mean this as an ad hominem or a condemnation of anyone specific in this discussion--I've always found the "cultures are not equal proposition" tends to be projective and externalizing, but inequally applied in introspection. For example, in deailng with Americans I find they are often fast to lump all Muslims into a single cultural mass and extrapolate "Muslim behavior" from the as-written decrees of the Sunnah and Shariah (and generally they're operating from a very limited sampling thereof). If one playful counters by trying to encapsulate all Christian behavior according to the Old and New Testaments, though, the same people will suddenly take issue with the agglomeration.

273 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:07:34pm

re: #271 Charles

Also, look at these pictures.


First one

And another

She can take her delusional argument to hell. I hope she is fired and ostracized from the rest of the journalism community.

274 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:12:19pm

re: #271 Charles

Also, comments there are continuing to blame you and she is saying that she is not allowed to register here. Considering what she said initially, and the comments she is getting and supporting, you should keep on her like stink on crap.

275 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:22:32pm

re: #272 The Ghost of a Flea

Thanks for the nuanced analysis. I don't think that "all cultures are equal" is even closely a defensible proposition, but I also know that bigots of all kinds will use the opposite to justify all sorts of shit, so yeah, one must be careful.

276 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:59:00pm

re: #275 Sergey Romanov

Thanks for the nuanced analysis. I don't think that "all cultures are equal" is even closely a defensible proposition, but I also know that bigots of all kinds will use the opposite to justify all sorts of shit, so yeah, one must be careful.

"It's tradition" and "we must resist their traditions" are, to me, equally suspect. Tradition is laughably flexible...you can transform a culture is a generation if you've got the social and governmental power. Look at State Shinto--everybody "knows" that the Japanese have always worshipped the Emperor, but really the rituals and ideology have only been around since the Meiji Era; before that, the divine origin of the Emperor was a little footnote in Shintoism that played out as a few annual rituals.

277 William of Orange  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 3:12:33pm
Esman has now removed the reference to LGF, with no comment, after I contacted her via email.

Not quite true, Charles. As can be seen at the bottom of the page she actually did clarify the removal of a reference to LGF.

The owner of LGF claims that the anti-Islam crowd does not read his blog. While I know many who do, his feeling was that he was being unfairly singled out, and rather than make an issue of a point that had nothing to do with the actual gist of my piece, I removed it.

That said, and this is important: neither LGF nor Ms. Geller nor anyone else whose writings this man read can be called responsible or culpable in any way. He also cites articles from the BBC. The BBC is also not responsible. The only person responsible for this man’s despicable acts is Breivik himself.

I am aware that the owner of LGF is publishing criticisms of Ms. Geller’s blog, as his followers are also presenting untrue remarks about me, my views, and my work. That’s the nature of blogging. It is unfortunate that LGF does not permit new registrations, making it impossible for me to clarify the issues, but that, too, is his choice in running his business.
But again, please do not confuse the fact that the killer read something on the internet with who is responsible for his deeds.

And this:

Charles Johnson was not named in my post. What I stated was that LGF is cited by Breivik in his writings. That is a fact. LGF is cited. AtlasShrugs is cited. Wikipedia is cited. The BBC is cited. They’re all cited. Johnson didn’t like my mentioning his blog in this post, sent me several e-mails that were not worth fighting over, so I removed it. Period.

278 lysdexic  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 4:43:37pm

Someone has turned off comments on that article now. Too bad, it was just getting interesting.


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