Oslo Terrorist Used Dum-Dum Bullets

‘These bullets exploded inside the body’
World • Views: 45,151

Norwegian surgeons treating victims of “counter-jihad” terrorist Anders Behring Breivik report that in the attack on the children’s summer camp, the killer used “dum-dum” rounds designed to do maximum damage.

The chief surgeon at a hospital treating victims of Norway’s camp massacre says the killer used special bullets designed to disintegrate inside the body and cause maximum internal damage. And ballistics experts say so-called dum-dum bullets also are lighter in weight, can be fired with greater accuracy over varying distances and are commonly are used by air marshals and hunters of small animals.

Colin Poole, head of surgery at Ringriket Hospital in Honefoss, northwest of Oslo, told the AP news agency surgeons treating 16 gunshot victims have recovered no full bullets:

These bullets more or less exploded inside the body … These bullets inflicted internal damage that’s absolutely horrible.

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217 comments
1 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:01:22am

There's a picture of him constructing bullets himself, so I doubt this was by chance.

2 Sionainn  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:02:03am

It just gets more horrifying.

3 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:10:22am

What a repulsive piece of human excrement.

4 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:12:07am

re: #1 Obdicut

There's a picture of him constructing bullets himself, so I doubt this was by chance.

Of course not. The only reason NOT to use them would be that he didn't want to cause unnecessary harm.

That was clearly not the case.

5 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:13:20am

In his book he elaborates at length about how to make the bullets more lethal (poison etc.).

6 notonanyday  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:13:48am

Matches the description of commonly available hollow points. Not that using FMJ rounds would have made him any less of a complete sicko.

7 Summer Seale  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:15:10am

All in the name of a loving "God"....somehow, a being so powerful that he created the entire universe, and yet relies on people to "defend" his word and will...

...by shooting them.

8 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:21:32am

The various Geneva Conventions have banned expanding and exploding bullets since the 1860s. The minimum size of an exploding projectile was originally set at one pound, which corresponded to a lead ball 37mm in diameter. This is why 37mm was the minimum artillery caliber for decades. The standard has changed over the years, but there is still a prescribed minimum that effectively prohibits explosive or expanding small arms ammunition in warfare.

9 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:21:45am

re: #6 notonanyday
I agree. It sounds like hollow points were used.

10 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:22:00am

Let's hope he never breathes free air again.

11 allegro  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:22:26am

re: #8 Shiplord Kirel

The various Geneva Conventions have banned expanding and exploding bullets since the 1860s. The minimum size of an exploding projectile was originally set at one pound, which corresponded to a lead ball 37mm in diameter. This is why 37mm was the minimum artillery caliber for decades. The standard has changed over the years, but there is still a prescribed minimum that effectively prohibits explosive or expanding small arms ammunition in warfare.

How civilized.

12 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:24:04am

re: #1 Obdicut

There's a picture of him constructing bullets himself, so I doubt this was by chance.

This image? I don't think he's making "dum-dums" here. Just play acting it seems.

13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:24:20am

re: #6 notonanyday

He could have killed them with "good-ship lollipop" bullets and I'd want him to get the hot shot.

14 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:24:55am

Please, don't for one second think I'm defending Breivik.

And ballistics experts say so-called dum-dum bullets also are lighter in weight, can be fired with greater accuracy over varying distances and are commonly are used by air marshals and hunters of small animals.

This is exactly the sort of bullshit reporting that Fox News would do. "Dum-dum" is what they called hollow-point bullets back in the early 1900s. Iron-clad guarantee: every American police officer carries "dum-dum" bullets in his/her service pistol.

The idea behind the design of a hollow-point bullet is that it should expand once inside its target and stop, thereby 1) dumping its kinetic energy into the target, and 2) not penetrating so as to ventilate unintended targets on the other side.

To be clear: there's not a type of bullet I'd prefer to be shot with.

It's just that hollow-point ammunition is as common as coat hangers, not remotely exotic or unusual, and certainly no more accurate over long distances than any other type of ammo. Less so, in fact, particularly in the case of rifle ammunition.

I guess it's a pet peeve, but I can cast only the most jaundiced of eyes upon reports that focus on a murderer's weapon.

15 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:28:49am

re: #12 Gus 802

This image? I don't think he's making "dum-dums" here. Just play acting it seems.

Yeah--and he's miming the injection of something, supposedly a toxin. that's not how bootleg expanding rounds would be made. (Note the 'ballistics expert' in the head quote needs review--it doesn't make obvious sense on the first read.)

16 notonanyday  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:30:41am

re: #13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

indeed

17 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:31:34am

re: #12 Gus 802

This image? I don't think he's making "dum-dums" here. Just play acting it seems.

Honesty, I know jack shit about armaments.

18 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:31:38am

An interesting tidbit.....

Killer personifies rise of new far-right

These groups include Stop Islamisation of America and Stop Islamisation of Europe, websites such as JihadWatch and Gates of Vienna, and the True Finns, some of whose members were sent the manifesto shortly before his killing spree started.

19 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:32:25am

re: #8 Shiplord Kirel
This is confusing. Hollow point bullets are designed to expand. In fact they are preferred by Police agencies. Are they banned by the UN?
[Link: articles.latimes.com...]
LAPD officials maintain that the hollow-point bullet--used by numerous law enforcement agencies throughout the country--is more effective in knocking down suspects and less likely to pass through its target and ricochet.

20 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:32:59am

re: #14 negativ

Please, don't for one second think I'm defending Breivik.

This is exactly the sort of bullshit reporting that Fox News would do. "Dum-dum" is what they called hollow-point bullets back in the early 1900s. Iron-clad guarantee: every American police officer carries "dum-dum" bullets in his/her service pistol.

The idea behind the design of a hollow-point bullet is that it should expand once inside its target and stop, thereby 1) dumping its kinetic energy into the target, and 2) not penetrating so as to ventilate unintended targets on the other side.

To be clear: there's not a type of bullet I'd prefer to be shot with.

It's just that hollow-point ammunition is as common as coat hangers, not remotely exotic or unusual, and certainly no more accurate over long distances than any other type of ammo. Less so, in fact, particularly in the case of rifle ammunition.

I guess it's a pet peeve, but I can cast only the most jaundiced of eyes upon reports that focus on a murderer's weapon.

What has your experience been in acquiring hollow-points in Norway?

21 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:33:17am

re: #18 Killgore Trout

An interesting tidbit...

Killer personifies rise of new far-right

These groups include Stop Islamisation of America and Stop Islamisation of Europe, websites such as JihadWatch and Gates of Vienna, and the True Finns, some of whose members were sent the manifesto shortly before his killing spree started.


Very interesting.

22 philosophus invidius  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:34:34am

I wonder if Breivik ever posted at LGF. I can imagine he did (and was banned).

23 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:35:04am

re: #19 Rightwingconspirator

This is confusing. Hollow point bullets are designed to expand. In fact they are preferred by Police agencies. Are they banned by the UN?
[Link: articles.latimes.com...]
LAPD officials maintain that the hollow-point bullet--used by numerous law enforcement agencies throughout the country--is more effective in knocking down suspects and less likely to pass through its target and ricochet.

That's one of the differences between policing and soldiering. The soldier wants a lot of disabled badguys. The cop wants very few dead civilians.

24 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:36:00am

re: #23 Decatur Deb
Exactly. Two different mind sets.

25 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:36:56am

////Remember, "Brutal but necessary" yeah just keep saying that jackass....

26 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:37:26am

The Times says that officers arrived at the island 40 minutes after they were called. What the hell took so long, getting over the water?

Even without understanding the magnitude of the situation, if I get a 911 call from a summer camp full of kids, I'm going to want to dispatch ASAP.

27 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:38:01am

re: #21 reine.de.tout


Very interesting.

My guess would be that at least Spencer and Fjordy got a sneak peak. They seemed to be his favorites. If they read it and didn't report it I suspect there could be some legal troubles.

28 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:38:15am

re: #26 SanFranciscoZionist
Me too.

29 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:38:22am

re: #11 allegro

How civilized.

It could be worse. There is no telling what kind of diabolical device ingenious weaponeers could invent in this field if they were free to do so.
It makes a real difference. I was shot with a .45 pistol a number of years ago. Being shot is no fun in the first place, but I was lucky it was a military FMJ bullet rather than a civilian market expanding type. It might be why I am not walking around on a prosthetic leg these days.

30 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:38:54am

re: #17 Obdicut

Honesty, I know jack shit about armaments.

Let me help you out.

Book of Armaments, Chapter 2, verses 9-21

...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O LORD, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the LORD did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu... [At this point, the friar is urged by Brother Maynard to "skip a bit, brother"]... And the LORD spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it." Amen

I am quite afraid of firearms.

31 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:39:25am

re: #20 Gus 802

What has your experience been in acquiring hollow-points in Norway?

Local rules aren't much of an issue. He could easily modify ammo with a drill press or Dremel tool.

32 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:39:42am

re: #26 SanFranciscoZionist

The Times says that officers arrived at the island 40 minutes after they were called. What the hell took so long, getting over the water?

Even without understanding the magnitude of the situation, if I get a 911 call from a summer camp full of kids, I'm going to want to dispatch ASAP.

It also seems like a fairly rural area. getting enough police assembled in the area probably took some time. Btw the killer was still shooting as the police arrived....
Utøya Shooting In Progress (Norway) - Gunfire caught on tape 22/07/11

33 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:40:08am

re: #32 Killgore Trout

And I don't believe that ordinary cops in Norway are armed.

34 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:40:42am

re: #17 Obdicut

Honesty, I know jack shit about armaments.

The facts are hollow point bullets are more likely to stop a person, more lethal, and substantially less likely to pass through anything and hit an unintended person. Ideal for the very unfortunate necessity of lethal force by police.

They are also excoriated by the ACLU as designed to be more lethal. A clever half truth, since FMJ or full metal jacket ammunition is much more likely to pass through something and kill a bystander. Even .22 caliber sport bullets are made that way for that reason-Safer for anything beyond the target.

Frankly I think the ACLU would forbid firearm to patrol officers outright if they could.

35 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:40:50am

re: #33 Obdicut

And I don't believe that ordinary cops in Norway are armed.

Ah, that could be an issue too.

36 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:41:48am

re: #23 Decatur Deb

Quite so, I had the impression (?) the UN objects to their use in all circumstances as does the ACLU.

37 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:41:51am

re: #31 Decatur Deb

Local rules aren't much of an issue. He could easily modify ammo with a drill press or Dremel tool.

Right. So the point isn't the ammunition itself but the motivation behind Breivik's decision to use hollow points and on children. It's about the mind of this anti-Jihadist terrorist not the ammunition itself. I would venture to guess that hollow points are likely illegal in Norway but I'd have to check.

38 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:42:20am

re: #27 Killgore Trout

Very interesting.

My guess would be that at least Spencer and Fjordy got a sneak peak. They seemed to be his favorites. If they read it and didn't report it I suspect there could be some legal troubles.

Oh, I'm absolutely sure he didn't send them anything illegal. He wouldn't have risked.

39 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:42:37am

re: #34 Rightwingconspirator

The facts are hollow point bullets are more likely to stop a person, more lethal, and substantially less likely to pass through anything and hit an unintended person. Ideal for the very unfortunate necessity of lethal force by police.

They are also excoriated by the ACLU as designed to be more lethal. A clever half truth, since FMJ or full metal jacket ammunition is much more likely to pass through something and kill a bystander. Even .22 caliber sport bullets are made that way for that reason-Safer for anything beyond the target.

Frankly I think the ACLU would forbid firearm to patrol officers outright if they could.

While I am normally a firm backer of the ACLU even when they defend the rights of people to say incredibly ugly things, honestly I don't think they should have a voice in how we arm our police officers.

40 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:42:46am

re: #34 Rightwingconspirator

You were batting 1.00 until your last sentence. ACLU members have children, too.

41 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:43:30am

re: #34 Rightwingconspirator

Talk about a short career.

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:45:17am

re: #32 Killgore Trout

It also seems like a fairly rural area. getting enough police assembled in the area probably took some time. Btw the killer was still shooting as the police arrived...
Utøya Shooting In Progress (Norway) - Gunfire caught on tape 22/07/11

[Video]

It's about twenty miles from Central Oslo, if what I've been reading is correct.

43 ThomasLite  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:45:26am

re: #9 PhillyPretzel

I agree. It sounds like hollow points were used.

re: #39 jamesfirecat

Better to make sure police are careful and reluctant in targeting anyone with a firearm; that way the SOB who still gets shot deserves every bit of nasty ammo thrown his way, indeed.

44 sagehen  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:45:48am

re: #26 SanFranciscoZionist

The Times says that officers arrived at the island 40 minutes after they were called. What the hell took so long, getting over the water?

Even without understanding the magnitude of the situation, if I get a 911 call from a summer camp full of kids, I'm going to want to dispatch ASAP.

The station was probably short-staffed, what with everyone heading to the explosion.

45 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:46:08am

re: #36 Rightwingconspirator

Quite so, I had the impression (?) the UN objects to their use in all circumstances as does the ACLU.

Don't know about the Un per se, but it goes back to the Geneva Conventions that predate it. IIRC, even the Ma Duece is technically illegal in a pure anti-personnel role. (It's always shot at 'materiel', like bandoliers or beltbuckles.)

46 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:46:27am

re: #34 Rightwingconspirator

Are you sure you mean the ACLU? I've never seen anything from them on the topic of hollow-point ammunition, or anything else related to guns, for that matter.

I've seen them decry the overuse of tasers, but that's about it.

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:46:44am

Mr. Romarheim said that in some ways, the homegrown nature of the attack made it harder for Norwegians to accept. “With 9/11 in America, people could ask, ‘Who are they?’ and could pour their rage out on someone else,” he said. “But we can’t disavow this person; he’s one of us.”

48 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:47:24am

re: #40 Decatur Deb

They do, but they presume a net gain, as they fear the police as much or more than the violent criminal element. Or they certainly give that impression via their statements aimed at Police policies.

That reminds me of some Womens groups who have been strong gun control advocates, forgetting that an armed potential victim is severely feared by rapists. See Paxton Quigleys book on that very subject.

49 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:48:52am

re: #48 Rightwingconspirator

That reminds me of some Womens groups who have been strong gun control advocates, forgetting that an armed potential victim is severely feared by rapists. See Paxton Quigleys book on that very subject.

any woman who goes out on her out unarmed is asking for it

50 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:48:54am

re: #32 Killgore Trout

It also seems like a fairly rural area. getting enough police assembled in the area probably took some time. Btw the killer was still shooting as the police arrived...
Utøya Shooting In Progress (Norway) - Gunfire caught on tape 22/07/11

[Video]

It took an hour and a half for the cops to show.

51 jaunte  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:49:03am

re: #44 sagehen

Numbers may have been an issue. There are about 9,000 police officers in Norway (compared to 34,000 in NYC).

52 ThomasLite  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:49:07am

re: #46 Obdicut

Are you sure you mean the ACLU? I've never seen anything from them on the topic of hollow-point ammunition, or anything else related to guns, for that matter.

I've seen them decry the overuse of tasers, but that's about it.

[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

Positively ancient, though. Maybe someone else has a more recent reference?

53 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:49:31am

re: #46 Obdicut

Are you sure you mean the ACLU? I've never seen anything from them on the topic of hollow-point ammunition, or anything else related to guns, for that matter.

I've seen them decry the overuse of tasers, but that's about it.


Crap they even decry the best attempt to transition to less lethal weapons.
I'm dead certain. I try to be careful as a long time self defense advocate myself.

From my link

"The ACLU is shellshocked over this decision," said Joel Maliniak, the ACLU'S spokesman. "The reason police generally favor them (the bullets) is that they have additional stopping power. What that means in shorthand is they have additional killing power."

54 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:51:16am

re: #53 Rightwingconspirator

That's from 1988.

55 kirkspencer  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:51:56am

re: #46 Obdicut

Are you sure you mean the ACLU? I've never seen anything from them on the topic of hollow-point ammunition, or anything else related to guns, for that matter.

I've seen them decry the overuse of tasers, but that's about it.

1988, the LAPD was going to change from roundpoint to hollowpoint. A number of organizations objected, of which the ACLU was one.

56 Olsonist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:52:23am

re: #48 Rightwingconspirator

Do you have any ACLU quotes to back this up? Being a card carrying ACLU member, I find their writing to be pretty clear. This shouldn't be difficult.

57 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:52:26am

re: #50 researchok

It took an hour and a half for the cops to show.

He did a conscious plan per some of the excerpts to draw the available police to the bombing site. Doing the second attack on an island also had to buy him time.

58 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:52:54am

The legality is no doubt moot given the context. Anyway, here's what I found...

Council Directive 91/477/EEC of 18 June 1991 on control of the acquisition and possession of weapons - EU Law

Category A - Prohibited firearms

1. Explosive military missiles and launchers.

2. Automatic firearms.

3. Firearms disguised as other objects.

4. Ammunition with penetrating, explosive or incendiary projectiles, and the projectiles for such ammunition.

5. Pistol and revolver ammunition with expanding projectiles and the projectiles for such ammunition, except in the case of weapons for hunting or for target shooting, for persons entitled to use them.

59 bratwurst  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:53:05am

re: #34 Rightwingconspirator

Frankly I think the ACLU would forbid firearm to patrol officers outright if they could.

Only if Obama and his jackbooted thugs don't ban them first!!!!111!!!!

60 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:53:11am

re: #52 ThomasLite

[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

Positively ancient, though. Maybe someone else has a more recent reference?

Approved in 1990, and still in use as of the last time I shot with some LAPD members last winter.

61 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:53:21am

re: #51 jaunte

Numbers may have been an issue. There are about 9,000 police officers in Norway (compared to 34,000 in NYC).

Norway's kind of like San Angeles; they use the three seashells, too.

62 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:54:23am

re: #56 Olsonist

Do you have any ACLU quotes to back this up? Being a card carrying ACLU member, I find their writing to be pretty clear. This shouldn't be difficult.

See my #53 and the link.

63 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:54:42am

re: #60 Rightwingconspirator

Approved in 1990, and still in use as of the last time I shot with some LAPD members last winter.

But you're talking about the ACLU fighting against hollow-points in the present tense, and saying that they'd disarm police officers if they could, in the present tense.

I have seen virtually nothing from the ACLU on the subject of police carrying guns or the type of ammunition they use during my lifetime. I have seen them urge caution in using tasers, seen them decry no-knock warrants, etc. All of which I agree with.

I don't think a case from 1988 really backs up your claim that the ACLU, in the present tense, would prefer it if the police were unarmed.

64 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:55:17am

This isn't exactly news unless hollow points are specifically banned Norway. I've got my Speer Reloading manual in front of me and the grain weights do not change much if at all between hollow points and FMJs; however, Ballistic Coefficient does change.

In ballistics, the ballistic coefficient (BC) of a body is a measure of its ability to overcome air resistance in flight. Which can have impact on accuracy at longer ranges. Hollow points and flat nose bullets tend to have lower BCs than a FMJ. Unless we are talking about match grade HPs rifle bullets. The HP is tiny compared to what most people would think of HPs.

Dum-dums in the true sense are FMJs filed down often by hand and they tend to loose accuracy do to uneven differences by filing.

65 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:55:30am

re: #58 Gus 802

The legality is no doubt moot given the context. Anyway, here's what I found...

Council Directive 91/477/EEC of 18 June 1991 on control of the acquisition and possession of weapons - EU Law

Category A - Prohibited firearms

Yeah--I saw distinct references to a 'full-auto' weapon, hard to get legally even here in the States.

66 ThomasLite  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:56:48am

re: #60 Rightwingconspirator

Approved in 1990, and still in use as of the last time I shot with some LAPD members last winter.

And rightly so. That "additional stopping power just means additional killing power" quote gets to me: what the hell is SHOOTING someone for in the first place? I'd say that making police more efficient at that, when needed, was a good thing? Sorry, I generally like the ACLU, if only for their reasoned consistency, but this is some rabiate gun-hater's talking point, no more.
geesh.

67 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:57:02am

CAIR Blames Robert Spence and the Jews....
CAIR
Manifesto of #Norway Terrorist has 46 References to U.S. Islamophobe Robert Spencer
[Link: www.richardsilverstein.​com...]

if you follow the link the headline is slightly different....
Anders Breivik, Norwegian Terror Suspect, Admirer of Israel, Avigdor Lieberman

...the fact that Breivik’s intellectual-political philosophy is inspired by each of them is a sign of the cesspool of hate found there. Just as settler rabbis held a pulsa di nura excommunicating Yitzhak Rabin before his assassination; just as Bibi Netanyahu fired up a crowd featuring pictures of Yitzhak Rabin dressed in an SS uniform shortly before the assassination, so did the intellectual content of these websites shape the world-view of the assassin.
68 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:57:08am

re: #64 Idle Drifter

This isn't exactly news unless hollow points are specifically banned Norway. I've got my Speer Reloading manual in front of me and the grain weights do not change much if at all between hollow points and FMJs; however, Ballistic Coefficient does change.

In ballistics, the ballistic coefficient (BC) of a body is a measure of its ability to overcome air resistance in flight. Which can have impact on accuracy at longer ranges. Hollow points and flat nose bullets tend to have lower BCs than a FMJ. Unless we are talking about match grade HPs rifle bullets. The HP is tiny compared to what most people would think of HPs.

Dum-dums in the true sense are FMJs filed down often by hand and they tend to loose accuracy do to uneven differences by filing.

Yes--That's why I said the cited ballistics expert needs another look.

69 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:57:34am

re: #67 Killgore Trout

Fuck CAIR.

71 ThomasLite  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:58:22am

re: #67 Killgore Trout

CAIR Blames Robert Spence and the Jews...
CAIR
Manifesto of #Norway Terrorist has 46 References to U.S. Islamophobe Robert Spencer
[Link: www.richardsilverstein.​com...] am/2011/07/23/ande​rs-breivik-norwegian-ter ror-su​spect-admirer-of-israel-avigdo&#x200 B;r-lieberman/

if you follow the link the headline is slightly different...
Anders Breivik, Norwegian Terror Suspect, Admirer of Israel, Avigdor Lieberman

Oh joy. Now all the bigots are going at each other.
/

72 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:59:18am

re: #69 Obdicut

Fuck CAIR.

Yup they are as awful as ever.

73 kirkspencer  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 11:59:28am

The ACLU's recent objection to tasers is due to an apparent over-use and, at least in some districts, apparent mis-classification as lower on the threat/danger profile than oleo spray. There have been some notorious incidents that have driven this particular interest.

74 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:00:01pm

re: #67 Killgore Trout

CAIR? That's some Richard Silverstein, and he doesn't blame the Jews.

75 Olsonist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:00:09pm

re: #62 Rightwingconspirator

I'm thinking of your #34. It seems to say that you think the ACLU is somehow pro-criminal anti-police.

76 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:00:17pm

re: #54 Obdicut

Approved in '90 and used ever since. This is not the kind of thing that comes under annual review. The safer beyond the target thing prevails in policy.

77 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:01:31pm

re: #76 Rightwingconspirator

Approved in '90 and used ever since. This is not the kind of thing that comes under annual review. The safer beyond the target thing prevails in policy.

Understood. My point is that you're talking about the ACLU fighting against dum-dum rounds in the present tense, and making the claim they'd prefer to see officer's disarmed. You've presented a single case from 1988 where they objected to a specific ammunition. That doesn't back up your claim.

78 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:01:37pm

re: #66 ThomasLite

The ACLU has been very consistent in this regard. It's sadly mistaken in this instance.

79 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:02:32pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout


Not equipped to deal with mass mayhem. They have some catching up to do with America in that respect, I guess...

80 Bill Nye: People Magazine 'Sexiest Man Alive'  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:03:17pm

re: #48 Rightwingconspirator
I am not an anti-gun liberal, but how does a woman get a gun out, aim and then shoot a rapist that has blitzed her from behind and thrown her to the ground? How do you let potential rapists, that are hiding somewhere, know that you are packing? Do i walk around everywhere waving the gun? Most rapists prefer a surprise attack.

81 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:04:00pm

re: #71 ThomasLite

Oh joy. Now all the bigots are going at each other.
/

Over at Sultan Knish, we learn that this tragedy shows the dangers of stifling dissent.

Seriously, they sound like every moron I ripped a new one for after 9/11. Amoral imbeciles, only afraid that the deaths of 93 people may make them look bad.

82 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:04:09pm

re: #80 Cankles McCellulite

I am not an anti-gun liberal, but how does a woman get a gun out, aim and then shoot a rapist that has blitzed her from behind and thrown her to the ground? How do you let potential rapists, that are hiding somewhere, know that you are packing? Do i walk around everywhere waving the gun? Most rapists prefer a surprise attack.

And most rapists are known and trusted by the victim, so a gun tends to be rather useless.

83 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:04:22pm

Wiki about Tikkun Olam: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It's a liberal Jewish blog covering Israel. To characterize it as "blaming the Jews" is ... wrong.

84 Idle Drifter  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:04:40pm

re: #53 Rightwingconspirator

Crap they even decry the best attempt to transition to less lethal weapons.
I'm dead certain. I try to be careful as a long time self defense advocate myself.

From my link

"The ACLU is shellshocked over this decision," said Joel Maliniak, the ACLU'S spokesman. "The reason police generally favor them (the bullets) is that they have additional stopping power. What that means in shorthand is they have additional killing power."

I'm just as dead if a hollow point or a FMJ passes through a vital area. For person behind me, it could mean all the difference of what hit me in the first place. There are also frangible bullets that look like FMJs but completely dump all their energy by turning to powder upon striking a target. They are much more safer to bystanders as they will not exit a target and will never ricochet as they'll turn to power on striking a hard surface. The draw back is they can be expensive.

85 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:05:11pm

re: #20 Gus 802

What has your experience been in acquiring hollow-points in Norway?

I spent about 15 minutes typing an extremely elaborate, long-winded response to this that made me feel almost human again. Birds were chirping, butterflies were fluttering by, and my dog even strolled over to see what was going on. Life was good. I had finally said something someone might remember for 4 or 5 minutes.

Before clicking "Post This Comment", I decided to alt-tab over to another browser window for a couple of seconds. When I tried to alt-tab back to LFG in order to click "Post This Comment", Chrome decided to do this (but imagine strobe lights and a disco soundtrack for the full effect) and segfault, thereby committing my history-changing missive to the digital tomb that knows no sound.

fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu

86 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:06:12pm

re: #85 negativ

:) Funny.

87 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:08:42pm

Re my #43, 2 down. That's fine, for discussion-
Are the facts I presented in error? Controversial? What did I say that got dinged down? Various countries do not arm their patrol officers. The US does. The ACLU disagrees. Well am I wrong to choose to go with the decision LAPD did? I hate to mention this but if I ever have to defend my wife or life it will be glazer safety rounds and hollowpoints fired by me.

Heaven and earth forbid.

88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:08:42pm

re: #82 Obdicut

Frankly I'd prefer the woman have a taser anyway.

If she's able to fend him off, then it will cause him pain while she stands over him grinding his nuts into the sidewalk/floor.

89 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:09:58pm

re: #85 negativ

I spent about 15 minutes typing an extremely elaborate, long-winded response to this that made me feel almost human again. Birds were chirping, butterflies were fluttering by, and my dog even strolled over to see what was going on. Life was good. I had finally said something someone might remember for 4 or 5 minutes.

Before clicking "Post This Comment", I decided to alt-tab over to another browser window for a couple of seconds. When I tried to alt-tab back to LFG in order to click "Post This Comment", Chrome decided to do this (but imagine strobe lights and a disco soundtrack for the full effect) and segfault, thereby committing my history-changing missive to the digital tomb that knows no sound.

fffuuu

See if you can dig it out. We'll probably have a similar thread a few months down the road.

90 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:10:17pm

Image: 999x.jpg

Women carry flowers as they arrive for a memorial service at Oslo Cathedral in the aftermath of the Friday attacks on Norway's government headquarters and a youth retreat in Oslo, Sunday, July 24, 2011. The man blamed for the attacks said he was motivated by a desire to bring about a revolution in Norwegian society, his lawyer said Sunday.

91 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:10:55pm

re: #80 Cankles McCellulite

I am not an anti-gun liberal, but how does a woman get a gun out, aim and then shoot a rapist that has blitzed her from behind and thrown her to the ground? How do you let potential rapists, that are hiding somewhere, know that you are packing? Do i walk around everywhere waving the gun? Most rapists prefer a surprise attack.

re: #82 Obdicut

And most rapists are known and trusted by the victim, so a gun tends to be rather useless.

In your particular scenarios no help. But many other scenarios exist, a significant number of which allow time. Read Paxtons book. Or go ahead and dig up a gun defense success scenario. They happen you know.

92 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:11:12pm

re: #74 Sergey Romanov

CAIR? That's some Richard Silverstein, and he doesn't blame the Jews.

I don't know Silverstein, but frankly I don't read what he's saying as blaming Jews for the attacks either.

93 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:11:23pm

re: #90 Gus 802

Image: 999x.jpg

Another one...

Image: x999.jpg

94 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:11:45pm

re: #92 CuriousLurker

I don't know Silverstein, but frankly I don't read what he's saying as blaming Jews for the attacks either.

Not even close.

95 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:11:50pm

re: #87 Rightwingconspirator

You're claiming the ACLU disagrees with arming police officers, but you haven't backed that claim up in the least. Why do you keep making that claim?

In that google search you listed, do you realize 2 of the results are the ACLU defending gun rights?

This statement by the ACLU says that arming police is constitutionally protected.


The ACLU agrees with the Supreme Court's long-standing interpretation of the Second Amendment that the individual's right to bear arms applies only to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia. Except for lawful police and military purposes, the possession of weapons by individuals is not constitutionally protected. Therefore, there is no constitutional impediment to the regulation of firearms.
96 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:12:33pm
97 allegro  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:13:06pm

re: #88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Frankly I'd prefer the woman have a taser anyway.

If she's able to fend him off, then it will cause him pain while she stands over him grinding his nuts into the sidewalk/floor.

Grandmaster Kim Su recommended to us women that we carry a cane. It's always legal and you can beat the ever loving crap outa someone with it.

98 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:13:42pm

re: #91 Rightwingconspirator

re: #82 Obdicut

In your particular scenarios no help. But many other scenarios exist, a significant number of which allow time. Read Paxtons book. Or go ahead and dig up a gun defense success scenario. They happen you know.

Sure. They'll help some of the time. They're not magic things, though. They'll help in certain circumstances if the woman is well-trained, has the gun on her, recognizes the attempted rape for what it is, and is able to get it out and use it in quickly enough.

99 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:14:13pm

Image: x999.jpg

A survivor of a shooting rampage on the Utoeya island wears a wristband reading "Utoeya" breaks out in tears in front of a sea of flowers and candles following a memorial service in the Oslo cathedral July 24, 2011. A right-wing zealot who admitted to bomb and gun attacks in Norway that killed 92 people on Friday claims he acted alone, Norway's police said on Sunday.

100 Dante41  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:15:09pm

Damn. I've been away from the news for two weeks in the Middle East, and I come back to this tragedy.

There are some seriously sick people in this world. Damn.

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:15:21pm

re: #97 allegro

Grandmaster Kim Su recommended to us women that we carry a cane. It's always legal and you can beat the ever loving crap outa someone with it.


Plus, it looks rather dashing.

I'm apparently on some complete stranger on email's shitlist, for having posted a link to one of yesterday's LGF posts, clarifying that Breivik is not, in fact, Fjordman, although there appear to be links, and stating that the death toll was up to 91.

The e-mail, unsigned, reads "Who are you...I don't want to read your lies..."

Maybe she believes that Breivik IS Fjordman. What the fuck do I know?

102 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:18:26pm

re: #63 Obdicut

But you're talking about the ACLU fighting against hollow-points in the present tense, and saying that they'd disarm police officers if they could, in the present tense.

I have seen virtually nothing from the ACLU on the subject of police carrying guns or the type of ammunition they use during my lifetime. I have seen them urge caution in using tasers, seen them decry no-knock warrants, etc. All of which I agree with.

I don't think a case from 1988 really backs up your claim that the ACLU, in the present tense, would prefer it if the police were unarmed.

How hard have you looked?! And since no one has a link about LAPD dropping hollowpoints and returning to FMJ since.... My point stands reasonably well supported.

They opposed tasers explicitly and recently.

What does that tell you about how they are on far more lethal firearms?

103 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:20:41pm

re: #97 allegro

Grandmaster Kim Su recommended to us women that we carry a cane. It's always legal and you can beat the ever loving crap outa someone with it.

Shaolin Damo Cane Technique:

104 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:21:10pm

re: #102 Rightwingconspirator

How hard have you looked?! And since no one has a link about LAPD dropping hollowpoints and returning to FMJ since... My point stands reasonably well supported.

No, it really doesn't. Your claim is that the ACLU would prefer to disarm police officers. Their actual statement is that armed police are constitutionally protected. your point is not only not supported, but contradicted.


They opposed tasers explicitly and recently.

What does that tell you about how they are on far more lethal firearms?

Nothing. And they are not opposed to tasers, they are opposed to the way that tasers are being used. It is a very, very important distinction.

105 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:21:45pm

re: #98 Obdicut
Some of the time is all anyone can expect. There is no panacea. And "some of the time" is enough to be worthwhile. Heck 911 only works some of the time in terms of stopping a crime.

106 allegro  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:23:35pm

re: #102 Rightwingconspirator


They opposed tasers explicitly and recently.

What does that tell you about how they are on far more lethal firearms?

When tasers are used on little old ladies, little kids, and others who are no threat whatsoever, the opposition does not appear to be misplaced.

107 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:24:04pm

re: #103 goddamnedfrank

Shaolin Damo Cane Technique:

[Video]

I have a shillelagh, and I know how to spell it.

Shillelagh Stick-Fighting (Bataireacht Sail-Éílle)

[Link: johnwhurley.com...]

108 Dante41  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:24:23pm

By the way, Salalah, Oman was a really nice place.

Crap, and there goes my shore leave. See you lizards again in a few days. Stay scaly.

109 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:24:31pm

re: #104 Obdicut

I'd like to ask the ACLU if they would like to see patrol officers sans firearms. How they would respond to a police department trying that experiment. Armed with less lethal tools instead. Who here believes the ACLU would not support such a policy?

Obdicut?

110 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:25:10pm

re: #107 Decatur Deb

There is a great, great scene in a Neil Stephenson novel where an Irishman teaches his English brother-in-law that the correct way to defeat a nobleman is not to fence with him, but to beat him to death with a big stick.

111 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:26:56pm

re: #109 Rightwingconspirator

I'd like to ask the ACLU if they would like to see patrol officers sans firearms.

Then do so. Given that their statement is that police carrying weapons is constitutionally protected, I think that you'd get a negative response.

How they would respond to a police department trying that experiment. Armed with less lethal tools instead. Who here believes the ACLU would not support such a policy?

As an experiment? Maybe. I doubt it, though. They focus much more on how tools are used, than the tools themselves.

112 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:28:23pm

re: #109 Rightwingconspirator

I'd like to ask the ACLU if they would like to see patrol officers sans firearms. How they would respond to a police department trying that experiment. Armed with less lethal tools instead. Who here believes the ACLU would not support such a policy?

Obdicut?

There's nothing inherently wrong with police officers using less lethal weapons, if you can get the same less lethal effects without giving up the ability to stop a criminal who is determined to harm/kill someone/himself.

At the moment its still a trade of, but I firmly believe at some point as technology marches on it won't be.

That said given situations like the North Hollywood shout out, it is also foolishness to arm police officers with weapons that can't get the job done if criminals take the necessary precautions.

113 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:29:35pm

re: #92 CuriousLurker

I don't know Silverstein, but frankly I don't read what he's saying as blaming Jews for the attacks either.

Speaking of "blame the Jews" I have a question I've been meaning to ask you guys: What's with the Bilderberg Group in connection to anti-Semitism?

I've seen it mentioned here on occasion, so I went to read the Wiki entry, but it just confused me more. So they are an elite group and their first US conference was founded at least in part by the Ford Foundation, Henry Ford being a known-anti-Semite and the Ford Foundation having been criticized for the same.

But the BG (as well as the Ford Foundation) are also criticized by elements on the right (like the JBS) as being NWO, commies. Since the BG includes bankers that would make me think the conspiracy theories are anti-Semitic.

I'm very, very confused. Is this a right/left moronic convergence area? Someone please help...

114 Sionainn  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:30:07pm

re: #107 Decatur Deb

I have a shillelagh, and I know how to spell it.

Shillelagh Stick-Fighting (Bataireacht Sail-Éílle)

[Link: johnwhurley.com...]

I grew up with a shillelagh hanging on our wall.

115 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:30:21pm

re: #106 allegro

When tasers are used on little old ladies, little kids, and others who are no threat whatsoever, the opposition does not appear to be misplaced.

When it calls for a moratorium rather than better training and policy for the use thereof it is wrong. Consider that absent the taser a real pistol may be used against combative people avoiding arrest with weapons of their own like whatever is at hand. Bat, stick, brick....

116 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:31:07pm

re: #107 Decatur Deb

I have a shillelagh, and I know how to spell it.

Shillelagh Stick-Fighting (Bataireacht Sail-Éílle)

[Link: johnwhurley.com...]

I have a Fokos/Valaska walking stick that I use on long backcountry camping trips. Useful for chopping dead wood for the campfire, intimidating coyotes when small dogs are around.

117 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:33:05pm

re: #107 Decatur Deb

I have a shillelagh, and I know how to spell it.

Shillelagh Stick-Fighting (Bataireacht Sail-Éílle)

[Link: johnwhurley.com...]

LOL. I have one from Cold Steel and a few canes too. Ann excellent option in public, bad knee or not.

118 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:35:20pm

re: #111 Obdicut

Yes they supported the constitutional right. Which falls well short of supporting the policies of Police departments. So I was not concerned with that particular fact.

119 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:35:23pm

re: #113 CuriousLurker

The massive anti-semitism of many public figures tends to be glossed over when creating these conspiracy stories.

Sergey let me know that the Masons are supposedly a secret Jewish cabal. I'm not even sure if they accept Jewish members-- they probably do-- but they're rather obviously overwhelmingly historically white.

120 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:35:35pm

re: #114 Sionainn

I grew up with a shillelagh hanging on our wall.

Whenever I ticked my grandfather off, he would go about yelling "Where is my shillelagh?"

121 Olsonist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:37:03pm

re: #118 Rightwingconspirator

Yes they supported the constitutional right. Which falls well short of supporting the policies of Police departments. So I was not concerned with that particular fact.

RWC, you come across as pro-police anti-citizen.

122 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:37:13pm

re: #118 Rightwingconspirator

Yes they supported the constitutional right. Which falls well short of supporting the policies of Police departments. So I was not concerned with that particular fact.

Well, the ACLU fights in court to defend the constitutional rights of anyone it thinks has been violated.

I think you're making the very serious mistake of seeing their opposition to the way tasers are used as opposition to tasers themselves. This is wrong.

And again: your claim that the ACLU would prefer to see police officers unarmed is completely unsubstantiated. Until you can substantiate it in the least, it'd be good for you not to claim that. It makes your other arguments look weaker by including it, since it's something that can be so easily dismissed.

123 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:37:58pm

re: #121 Olsonist

RWC, you come across as pro-police anti-citizen.

And he's definitely not; that's just a miscommunication on this particular issue.

124 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:40:24pm

re: #119 Obdicut

The massive anti-semitism of many public figures tends to be glossed over when creating these conspiracy stories.

Sergey let me know that the Masons are supposedly a secret Jewish cabal. I'm not even sure if they accept Jewish members-- they probably do-- but they're rather obviously overwhelmingly historically white.

Well, that's where I'm confused. I was under the impression that the conspiracy theorists consider the BG to also be a Jewish cabal therefore mentioning it would be a dog whistle, yet there was no mention of Jews or anti-Semitism in the Wiki entry.

Yeah, that bit about the Masons is bizarre, but then I guess conspiracy theories should be expected to make sense.

125 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:40:48pm

re: #80 Cankles McCellulite

I am not an anti-gun liberal, but how does a woman get a gun out, aim and then shoot a rapist that has blitzed her from behind and thrown her to the ground? How do you let potential rapists, that are hiding somewhere, know that you are packing? Do i walk around everywhere waving the gun? Most rapists prefer a surprise attack.

Leaving aside the fact that most victims of rape and/or murder know their victimizers, a huge part of the decision to carry a firearm for self-defense includes the responsibility for being aware of your surroundings. Importantly, this is not to be confused with paranoia.

You don't walk around waving the gun, nor do you treat the gun as a magic talisman that wards off all evil. It is up to you to be aware of your surroundings, to avoid trouble as much as is possible, and to deploy lethal force only as a last resort.

126 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:41:29pm

re: #119 Obdicut

The massive anti-semitism of many public figures tends to be glossed over when creating these conspiracy stories.

Sergey let me know that the Masons are supposedly a secret Jewish cabal. I'm not even sure if they accept Jewish members-- they probably do-- but they're rather obviously overwhelmingly historically white.

Sure there are differences between "brands" and regional variations of Masons, but here in the States they are (were) fairly solid Protestant. In Italy, of course, they run to disobedient Catholics. (Catholics are specifically not permitted by the church to join, thus the Knights of Columbus was formed to meet the need to wear funny hats.)

127 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:43:20pm

re: #126 Decatur Deb

thus the Knights of Columbus was formed to meet the need to wear funny hats.)

And, as I recall, make terrible pancakes.

128 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:44:02pm

re: #119 Obdicut

The massive anti-semitism of many public figures tends to be glossed over when creating these conspiracy stories.

Sergey let me know that the Masons are supposedly a secret Jewish cabal. I'm not even sure if they accept Jewish members-- they probably do-- but they're rather obviously overwhelmingly historically white.

My Dad is a Mason. I remember him saying very emphatically that they do not ask about religion in any way for membership. He was impressed with that.

129 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:46:01pm

re: #128 Stanley Sea

My Dad is a Mason. I remember him saying very emphatically that they do not ask about religion in any way for membership. He was impressed with that.

But, since each lodge is a local one, they obviously are going to know what religion you are before you're accepted or not.

Anyway: I have no problem with masons, I know little about them, but they were clearly started by white protestants and have continued to be white protestants.

Turns out there's an African-american mason organization, separate from the main two mason organizations, too.

130 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:46:52pm

re: #119 Obdicut

Sergey let me know that the Masons are supposedly a secret Jewish cabal.

Careful, this is such an easy misquote ;)

131 TedStriker  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:46:55pm

re: #120 Decatur Deb

Whenever I ticked my grandfather off, he would go about yelling "Where is my shillelagh?"

Hopefully, he wasn't talking about this ;-)

132 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:47:11pm

re: #129 Obdicut

Turns out there's an African-american mason organization, separate from the main two mason organizations, too.

You mean the organization has a Mason-Dixon Line running through it?

133 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:47:27pm

re: #128 Stanley Sea

My Dad is a Mason. I remember him saying very emphatically that they do not ask about religion in any way for membership. He was impressed with that.

The old antagonisms are surely dying. At one time the Masons and Cotholics were at each others' throats. Already by the mid 50s, our Catholic reform boarding school had a Christmas season party thrown by the local Shriners.

134 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:48:19pm

re: #87 Rightwingconspirator

glazer safety rounds

... have never cycled successfully through any pistol I own. Gimmicky crap. Also, good luck explaining your choice of unusual ammo to the jury, should worse come to worse.

135 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:48:20pm

re: #129 Obdicut

But, since each lodge is a local one, they obviously are going to know what religion you are before you're accepted or not.

Anyway: I have no problem with masons, I know little about them, but they were clearly started by white protestants and have continued to be white protestants.

Turns out there's an African-american mason organization, separate from the main two mason organizations, too.

Very true. I'll make a point of asking him about it.

136 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:48:57pm

re: #131 talon_262

Hopefully, he wasn't talking about this ;-)

Perfectly crappy TOW, but I think the Army really gave it up in the 70s because no one could spell it.

137 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:50:02pm

re: #132 ralphieboy

You mean the organization has a Mason-Dixon Line running through it?

It's an interesting history. It actually got separated during the war of 1812.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

On March 6, 1775, an African American named Prince Hall was made a Master Mason in Irish Constitution Military Lodge No. 441, along with fourteen other African Americans: Cyrus Johnston, Bueston Slinger, Prince Rees, John Canton, Peter Freeman, Benjamin Tiler, Duff Ruform, Thomas Santerson, Prince Rayden, Cato Speain, Boston Smith, Peter Best, Forten Horward, and Richard Titley, all of whom apparently were free by birth. When the Military Lodge left the area, the African Americans were given the authority to meet as a Lodge, form Processions on the days of the Saints John, and conduct Masonic funerals, but not to confer degrees nor to do other Masonic work. These individuals applied for and obtained a Warrant for Charter from the Grand Lodge of England in 1784 and formed African Lodge #459.
Despite being stricken from the rolls (like all American Grand Lodges were after the 1813 merger of the Antients and the Moderns), the Lodge restyled itself as African Lodge #1 (not to be confused with the various Grand Lodges on the Continent of Africa), and separated itself from United Grand Lodge of England-recognized Masonry. This led to a tradition of separate, predominantly African American jurisdictions in North America, which are known collectively as Prince Hall Freemasonry. Widespread racism and segregation in North America made it impossible for African Americans to join many mainstream lodges, and many mainstream Grand Lodges in North America refused to recognize as legitimate the Prince Hall Lodges and Prince Hall Masons in their territory.

For many years both Prince Hall and "mainstream" Grand Lodges have had integrated membership, though in some Southern states this has been policy but not practice. Today, Prince Hall Lodges are recognized by the Grand Lodge of England (UGLE) as well as the great majority of state Grand Lodges in the US and many international Grand Lodges. While no Grand Lodge of any kind is universally recognized, at present, Prince Hall Masonry is recognized by some UGLE-recognized Grand Lodges and not by others, but appears to be working its way toward further recognition. According to data compiled in 2008, 41 out of the 51 mainstream US Grand Lodges recognize Prince Hall Grand Lodges. The mainstream state Grand Lodges that do not recognize Prince Hall Grand Lodges are located largely in southern states: Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi, Florida, Louisiana, Arkansas, South Carolina, Kentucky, and West Virginia.

Unsurprisingly, the lodges that don't recognize the African-American masons are in the South.

138 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:50:23pm

re: #123 Obdicut

And he's definitely not; that's just a miscommunication on this particular issue.

Yes, and thank you very much for that. I'm pro self defense, and the police are what stand between criminal and victim every time they can. So I support them strongly with awareness they do have bad apples and sometimes make tragic errors. I just happen to also support the means for us to protect ourselves and family on those occasions the police are not there in time. I got to this point by spending lots of time as a range officer with police and civilians together at sporting events like IDPA and tactical classes.

139 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:52:36pm

You know. Firefox 5 is kind of weird.

140 bratwurst  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:54:22pm

re: #139 Gus 802

You know. Firefox 5 is kind of weird.

If by "weird" you mean "horrendous", I am with you. I think I had a single digit number of browser crashes in my first 5+ years of using Firefox...in the last 6 months I have had dozens. As soon as I get my new machine, I am switching to Chrome full time.

141 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:54:33pm

Some people filming before the explosion and as they walk up the street to where they heard the explosion.

142 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:54:55pm

re: #139 Gus 802

You know. Firefox 5 is kind of weird awful.

Yeah, I noticed that.

143 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:55:55pm

re: #140 bratwurst

If by "weird" you mean "horrendous", I am with you. I think I had a single digit number of browser crashes in my first 5+ years of using Firefox...in the last 6 months I have had dozens. As soon as I get my new machine, I am switching to Chrome full time.

Yeah, it was giving me problems almost immediately. "Clearing Recent History" crashed twice. The buttons and menus are hard to move around. It looks crappy. Firefox 3.6 look much better.

144 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:56:39pm

re: #142 negativ

... says the guy who was a Mozilla zealot since the days when Firefox was still called "Phoenix".

145 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:57:10pm

re: #139 Gus 802

You know. Firefox 5 is kind of weird.

Each update gets a little worse

146 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:57:30pm

Hey! Such a great day. Same sex Sunday in NY!

steven_thrasher

Glad I could warm your #Grinch heart @JoeMyGod w volunteer flower girls bit.ly/pGVQKV

147 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:58:01pm

re: #146 Stanley Sea

Do you live in NY, Stanley?

148 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:58:08pm

re: #122 Obdicut

Well, the ACLU fights in court to defend the constitutional rights of anyone it thinks has been violated.

I think you're making the very serious mistake of seeing their opposition to the way tasers are used as opposition to tasers themselves. This is wrong.

And again: your claim that the ACLU would prefer to see police officers unarmed is completely unsubstantiated. Until you can substantiate it in the least, it'd be good for you not to claim that. It makes your other arguments look weaker by including it, since it's something that can be so easily dismissed.

I'd like to point out when I said "I think the ACLU would.." I was offering my speculation/opinion not trying to claim that as a fact. It's an opinion gained in part from the above quote from their spokesman in 1988 as well as other similar incidents.

149 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:59:22pm

re: #145 Killgore Trout

Each update gets a little worse

I might try Safari again. Or revert to 3.6. Tried Chrome but I wasn't too happy with it. MSIE is in the bin and I only use it to do manual updates for my Windows XP SP3.

150 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 12:59:30pm

re: #146 Stanley Sea

Bleah, here's the linky!

[Link: blogs.villagevoice.com...]

Twins Are Volunteer Flower Girls For Brooklyn Same-Sex Marriages

151 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:00:15pm

re: #148 Rightwingconspirator

I'd like to point out when I said "I think the ACLU would.." I was offering my speculation/opinion not trying to claim that as a fact. It's an opinion gained in part from the above quote from their spokesman in 1988 as well as other similar incidents.

I understand that it's speculation, but objecting to a particular ammunition on the grounds of it being especially lethal does not in any logical way lead to the conclusion that they would like unarmed officers. And if you really look at their criticisms of tasers, it is the way that they are used, and not the tasers themselves, they are critical of. That's typical of them; they tend not to focus on what something is, but how it is used.

152 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:00:28pm

re: #147 Obdicut

Do you live in NY, Stanley?

Nope, San Diego. Land of Prop 8 as you know. I'm so happy for the NYer's now. A lot of Californians waited and missed the small window of marriage. Although I don't think that will happen in NY. Do you?

153 ProMayaLiberal  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:01:25pm

re: #150 Stanley Sea

AWWWW!

I saw the pictures people put here of the mourners in Norway, including a Muslim and her son.

Anybody sent these pictures to the dog in the last story? I can't find a respectful way to call her.

154 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:02:02pm

Ha!

Norway gunman expected to plead not guilty to terrorism charges in court
Anders Behring Breivik has confessed to Oslo bombing and Utøya island shootings but denies criminal responsibility

The man charged with the twin terror attacks that killed at least 93 people in Norway on Friday is expected to plead not guilty when he appears in court on Monday despite telling his lawyer the atrocities had been "gruesome but necessary".

Anders Behring Breivik has confessed to the bombing in Oslo and the mass shooting at a youth camp on Utøya island, but denied criminal responsibility. He said he wanted to start a revolution in Norwegian society to defeat liberal immigration policies and the spread of Islam.

"He thought it was gruesome having to commit these acts, but in his head they were necessary," Breivik's lawyer, Geir Lippestad, told the Norwegian broadcaster NRK...

Right. Not guilty. Where's my barf bag?

155 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:02:22pm

re: #152 Stanley Sea

I don't think there's any chance of it being rolled back in NY. I'm an ex-Californian, now in NYC. The legislature here seems a lot less dysfunctional, and the number of Republicans who made principled stands for gay marriage was inspiring.

I have a couple of friends in Cali who made the dates for marriage. I'm very hopeful the Prop 8 court cases will be decided in the favor of liberty.

156 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:03:30pm

re: #154 Gus 802

"I had to do it" is not a plea of innocence. What a douchebag. He really wants to be let out of jail, he really still thinks of himself as a force of good in this world. What a fanatic.

157 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:04:02pm

Bullets that explode after impact?
We're one fucked up species.

158 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:04:48pm

re: #157 Varek Raith

Bullets!

We're one fucked up species.

Nice to see you, by the way, I feel like I haven't in awhile.

159 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:05:18pm

re: #149 Gus 802

I might try Safari again. Or revert to 3.6. Tried Chrome but I wasn't too happy with it. MSIE is in the bin and I only use it to do manual updates for my Windows XP SP3.

Hanging with 3.6, but they'll probably stop that versions updates at some point.

160 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:05:21pm

re: #157 Varek Raith

Bullets that explode after impact?
We're one fucked up species.

I understand the utility of such devices if they are being employed by a police officer who wishes to disable a dangerous criminal without endangering innocent bystanders.

But only under those circumstances.

161 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:06:02pm

re: #157 Varek Raith

Bullets that explode after impact?
We're one fucked up species.

Chimpangeniuses we are.

//

162 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:07:57pm

re: #158 Obdicut

Bullets!

We're one fucked up species.

Nice to see you, by the way, I feel like I haven't in awhile.

Vacations rock. :)
Got away from the freaking 118 degree heat indices in DC.

163 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:08:29pm

re: #157 Varek Raith

Bullets that explode after impact?
We're one fucked up species.

Vogons tremble.

164 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:09:11pm

re: #160 ralphieboy

I understand the utility of such devices if they are being employed by a police officer who wishes to disable a dangerous criminal without endangering innocent bystanders.

But only under those circumstances.

Yeah. It is too bad that no one was there to put a bullet (or two, or three, or four) in Mr. Breivik's head.

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:09:12pm

re: #119 Obdicut

The massive anti-semitism of many public figures tends to be glossed over when creating these conspiracy stories.

Sergey let me know that the Masons are supposedly a secret Jewish cabal. I'm not even sure if they accept Jewish members-- they probably do-- but they're rather obviously overwhelmingly historically white.

I tried to Google about Jewish masons, but you can imagine what came up...

So I don't know, but I expect they do let Jews in. They're sort of generically theistic, but not interested in specific theology, IIRC. When my Dad was a kid, I think they still didn't let Catholics in--they wouldn't let him be a DeMolay boy because he was Catholic, although my granddad (Protestant) was a Mason all his life.

166 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:09:43pm

re: #151 Obdicut

One up for a well thought position, even with some disagreement. I'll write a letter to the ACLU but if I get a reply at all it may not be timely. They do not seem to have an email addy in the contact page. Perhaps email would be too voluminous to handle well.

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:11:12pm

re: #126 Decatur Deb

Sure there are differences between "brands" and regional variations of Masons, but here in the States they are (were) fairly solid Protestant. In Italy, of course, they run to disobedient Catholics. (Catholics are specifically not permitted by the church to join, thus the Knights of Columbus was formed to meet the need to wear funny hats.)

The KoC have great costumes. There was an honor guard of them at a funeral I was at last summer. A row of dignified elderly Filipino men in ridiculous hats, with swords and sashes...

168 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:11:42pm

re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist
My dad is a Mason and so was my uncle. And yes both are Jewish.

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:11:43pm

re: #128 Stanley Sea

My Dad is a Mason. I remember him saying very emphatically that they do not ask about religion in any way for membership. He was impressed with that.

Perhaps the DeMolay problem stemmed from the Church's prohibition then. I should ask my Dad for clarification.

170 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:11:55pm

re: #126 Decatur Deb

Sure there are differences between "brands" and regional variations of Masons, but here in the States they are (were) fairly solid Protestant. In Italy, of course, they run to disobedient Catholics. (Catholics are specifically not permitted by the church to join, thus the Knights of Columbus was formed to meet the need to wear funny hats.)

And do good works.

The town where I grew up had a children's home established and financed and run by the Masons. This was a huge and ongoing undertaking. The complex had all sorts of amenities. Kids who were orphans, or whose parents could not take care of them for whatever reason, lived there. I attended school with several folks who grew up at that home; and they all appreciated the stability the place gave them, even if they were upset or sad about whatever parental circumstances put them there.

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:13:07pm

re: #153 ProLifeLiberal

AWWW!

I saw the pictures people put here of the mourners in Norway, including a Muslim and her son.

Anybody sent these pictures to the dog in the last story? I can't find a respectful way to call her.

I think if you say 'journalist' with sufficient sarcasm, it works fine.

172 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:14:45pm

re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist

I tried to Google about Jewish masons, but you can imagine what came up...

So I don't know, but I expect they do let Jews in. They're sort of generically theistic, but not interested in specific theology, IIRC. When my Dad was a kid, I think they still didn't let Catholics in--they wouldn't let him be a DeMolay boy because he was Catholic, although my granddad (Protestant) was a Mason all his life.

Probably just wasn't that much overlap in the Masonic and Jewish 'ranges'. While both groups are everywhere, the Masons were strongest in the rural Midwest. It was a shock to see the Masonic temple in Rock Island, IL. It was like a small cathedral, one of the largest buildings in town.

173 ErikJ76  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:14:45pm

re: #32 Killgore Trout

It also seems like a fairly rural area. getting enough police assembled in the area probably took some time. Btw the killer was still shooting as the police arrived...
Utøya Shooting In Progress (Norway) - Gunfire caught on tape 22/07/11

[Video]

Two minutes after the police arrived on island, the terrorist surrendered. And at that time he still had a lot of ammunition.

His plan was to kill as many as he could without being killed himself.

174 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:18:00pm

Has there been any confirmation that he put concentrated nicotine in the bullets as he discussed in his manifesto?

175 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:19:14pm

re: #173 ErikJ76

Two minutes after the police arrived on island, the terrorist surrendered. And at that time he still had a lot of ammunition.
His plan was to kill as many as he could without being killed himself.

Scary part, the shooting was only part one of the plan: obviously, his next stage is to use the trial and the publicity to spread his "message" to as broad a public as possible.

176 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:22:33pm

Thanks for retweeting CL!

RagingTeabagger RagingTeabagger
by CuriousLurker

Gaymageddon hits NY like a rainbow spewing tornado #FoxNews needs to move it's headquarters to the Midwest or risk infection! #p2

LOL

177 darthstar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:23:11pm

Had a good ride this morning...26 miles (27 according to my bike computer)...

Here's a map.
[Link: www.mapmyrun.com...]

My body's fucking jello right now...and I still need to run the dogs.

178 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:24:08pm

re: #176 Stanley Sea

Thanks for retweeting CL!

RagingTeabagger RagingTeabagger
by CuriousLurker

Gaymageddon hits NY like a rainbow spewing tornado #FoxNews needs to move it's headquarters to the Midwest or risk infection! #p2

LOL

teh gay is a disease which spreads by contact...

/

179 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:24:30pm

And to put the icing on the cake, there's a mariachi band playing two doors down from me! For real!

180 darthstar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:24:48pm

re: #176 Stanley Sea

Fox News needs to move its HQ to the middle east where there are more like-minded people.

181 darthstar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:25:49pm

re: #177 darthstar

My body's fucking jello right now...and I still need to run the dogs.

"fucking" is used as an adjective there, and not a verb...just in case someone was concerned.

182 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:26:40pm

re: #180 darthstar

Fox News needs to move its HQ to the middle east where there are more like-minded people.

Well, the Midwest sure won't work if they go to Iowa.

And the Middle East won't work if they pick Tel Aviv.

Is office space affordable in Tehran?

183 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:26:51pm

re: #181 darthstar

"fucking" is used as an adjective there, and not a verb...just in case someone was concerned.

....Damn. There goes my joke.
/

184 darthstar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:27:19pm

re: #175 ralphieboy

Scary part, the shooting was only part one of the plan: obviously, his next stage is to use the trial and the publicity to spread his "message" to as broad a public as possible.

Easy solution there...Speedy trial with limited media. Newspaper reporters only...no TV.

185 darthstar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:28:03pm

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, the Midwest sure won't work if they go to Iowa.

And the Middle East won't work if they pick Tel Aviv.

Is office space affordable in Tehran?

I'm thinking Kabul or Kandahar.

186 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:29:10pm

re: #177 darthstar

Had a good ride this morning...26 miles (27 according to my bike computer)...

Here's a map.
[Link: www.mapmyrun.com...]

My body's fucking jello right now...and I still need to run the dogs.

Kids today.

My grandmother used to run twice that distance in half the time.

In the snow. Barefoot. Uphill both ways.

And she only had one leg.

And she was blind.
///

187 Randall Gross  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:29:23pm

Jeff Sharlett is actually reading Breivik's manifesto start to finish (Jeff wrote the book about the C st crowd) One of Breivik's U.S. influences appears to be William Lind, who is part of that Weyrich/FCF crowd, sometimes writes for the The American Conservative (Buchanan, Taki etc,) and Lew Rockwell....

Bet nobody here is surprised at that...

@JeffSharlett if you want to follow along on twitter

188 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:29:24pm

re: #14 negativ

It's just that hollow-point ammunition is as common as coat hangers, not remotely exotic or unusual, and certainly no more accurate over long distances than any other type of ammo. Less so, in fact, particularly in the case of rifle ammunition.

There's the faint possibility they're using "dum-dum" because it was a homemade soft-point bullet, or a bullet altered to expand--as opposed to a manufactured hollow point--but I suspect that the used of the rarified term is to exoticize and make-unfamiliar.

re: #34 Rightwingconspirator

The facts are hollow point bullets are more likely to stop a person, more lethal, and substantially less likely to pass through anything and hit an unintended person. Ideal for the very unfortunate necessity of lethal force by police.

I don't want to be shot with hollow points, but I'd much rather cops use them than anything full-jacket for both of the reasons you cite.

I hate that so many of my gun-enthusiast associates don't understand back-stopping. That they live in urban/suburb-density yet pack full-jacketed bullets just freaks me out.

189 darthstar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:30:33pm

re: #186 researchok

Kids today.

My grandmother used to run twice that distance in half the time.

In the snow. Barefoot. Uphill both ways.

And she only had one leg.

And she was blind.
///


Hey, I made it...that's good enough for me.

190 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:31:14pm

re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist

Perhaps the DeMolay problem stemmed from the Church's prohibition then. I should ask my Dad for clarification.

Ha!! Looking for a photo of the Masonic temple (which seems to be in another of the Quad Cities), I hit an entirely New and Wondrous Thing.

Did you know about the Jewish settlement from the time of Charlemagne in Calalus, Arizona?

See Prof. Cyclone Covey's stuff below:

[Link: www.flavinscorner.com...]

191 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:32:16pm

re: #187 Thanos

Is it me? I can't find @jeffsharlett on twitter.

192 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:32:25pm

re: #189 darthstar

Hey, I made it...that's good enough for me.

And another thing.

She'd have dinner ready by the time she got back.
//

Seriously. 26 miles is workout for sure.

How often do you do that?

193 jaunte  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:33:17pm

re: #191 Stanley Sea

Use @JeffSharlet

194 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:33:30pm

re: #190 Decatur Deb
Here is some information about the one in Philly. [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

195 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:33:34pm

re: #191 Stanley Sea

Is it me? I can't find @jeffsharlett on twitter.

One T.

@jeffsharlet

196 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:34:35pm

re: #177 darthstar

Had a good ride this morning...26 miles (27 according to my bike computer)...

Here's a map.
[Link: www.mapmyrun.com...]

My body's fucking jello right now...and I still need to run the dogs.

Whoa. Dude that map is too detailed at your starting point. Be careful. (Not that I'm as careful online as I probably should be)

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:35:16pm

re: #190 Decatur Deb

Ha!! Looking for a photo of the Masonic temple (which seems to be in another of the Quad Cities), I hit an entirely New and Wondrous Thing.

Did you know about the Jewish settlement from the time of Charlemagne in Calalus, Arizona?

See Prof. Cyclone Covey's stuff below:

[Link: www.flavinscorner.com...]

You learn something new every day.

198 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:37:29pm

re: #187 Thanos

Jeff Sharlett is actually reading Breivik's manifesto start to finish (Jeff wrote the book about the C st crowd) One of Breivik's U.S. influences appears to be William Lind, who is part of that Weyrich/FCF crowd, sometimes writes for the The American Conservative (Buchanan, Taki etc,) and Lew Rockwell...

Bet nobody here is surprised at that...

@JeffSharlett if you want to follow along on twitter

I don't know. I only find one reference in Breivik's screed for William Lind:

Regime/state methods against 4GW [4th Generation Warfare] (p. 1480)

There are few examples of the state being effective in a 4GW conflict. The only major example is that of the British Army in Northern Ireland after the events of Bloody Sunday. A notable theorist of 4GW, William Lind, believes that the reason for the British being successful in that conflict was that the British Army did not use heavy weapons in that period and that the British Government forces attempted to get to know the areas involved in the conflict. Also according to Lind the British did not engage in collective punishment and desired to keep civilian casualties to a minimum. In other words they won over the population by reducing the risk of damage to civilians and their property and by getting to know the local area.

199 darthstar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:37:43pm

re: #192 researchok

And another thing.

She'd have dinner ready by the time she got back.
//

Seriously. 26 miles is workout for sure.

How often do you do that?

Not very often...and over 1200 feet of gain on the ride (sea level to 600+...twice) This fat man was breathing heavy. And the downhill sections scared the crap out of me...sharp curves, narrow roads, and keeping one's speed down is tough on a road bike. I did a 37 mile ride last weekend that was a walk in the park by comparison. Hills definitely take it out of me...I think if I can keep doing a ride like this once a week I should drop a few pounds...eventually.

200 darthstar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:39:15pm

re: #196 Rightwingconspirator

Whoa. Dude that map is too detailed at your starting point. Be careful. (Not that I'm as careful online as I probably should be)

I didn't start from my house...drove to town to meet a friend and some of her friends (it was her birthday ride). Otherwise it would have been another 10 miles of flat riding.

201 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:39:59pm

re: #177 darthstar

Had a good ride this morning...26 miles (27 according to my bike computer)...

Here's a map.
[Link: www.mapmyrun.com...]

My body's fucking jello right now...and I still need to run the dogs.

You ever ride up to Alice's Restaurant in Skylonda? I was there a few years ago photographing the Tour of California, good breakfast, really nice area.

202 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:40:56pm

And putting "Rich Lowry, William Lind, Gertrude Himmelfarb, Ted Kaczynski, Robert Bork" in the same breadth is a rather wide brush to paint with.

203 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:43:52pm

re: #199 darthstar

Not very often...and over 1200 feet of gain on the ride (sea level to 600+...twice) This fat man was breathing heavy. And the downhill sections scared the crap out of me...sharp curves, narrow roads, and keeping one's speed down is tough on a road bike. I did a 37 mile ride last weekend that was a walk in the park by comparison. Hills definitely take it out of me...I think if I can keep doing a ride like this once a week I should drop a few pounds...eventually.

I started on a diet myself- exerciser but a loss rigorous.

Here's my deal (working so far. I've lost more than few pounds):

Take desired weight, multiply by 10= the total numbers of calories allowed per day.

Unless you are diabetic or type 2/pre diabetes, eat your carbs only once a day.

For each 1000 calories, moderate exercise broken into two parts per day. For example, say your desired weight is 150 lbs. You would have to do 1.5 hours a day of moderate exercise (walking is fine) divided by 2- in this case, 45 minutes twice a day.

No question the program works. I've seen it myself. My ex lost 26 lbs on the program and kept it off.

204 darthstar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:44:59pm

re: #201 goddamnedfrank

You ever ride up to Alice's Restaurant in Skylonda? I was there a few years ago photographing the Tour of California, good breakfast, really nice area.

I used to live a half mile south of Alice's on Skyline Road. Tough area to ride normally, as the cars move really fast around there and the road can be rough. It was the closest place to eat, so was our default, "shit, I forgot to go to the store" restaurant (I always ate a chili burger with a veggie patty - it's my thing).

205 researchok  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:45:12pm

re: #202 Gus 802

And putting "Rich Lowry, William Lind, Gertrude Himmelfarb, Ted Kaczynski, Robert Bork" in the same breadth is a rather wide brush to paint with.

The guy was nuts.

Treating his 'manifesto' seriously is a waste of time.

206 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:49:06pm

re: #205 researchok

The guy was nuts.

Treating his 'manifesto' seriously is a waste of time.

Definitely. I'm seeing an odd logic wherein if Breivik mentions Rich Lowry or Robert Bork therefore anyone that adheres to the ideology of the two must be just like Breivik at play here. It's illogical. Breivik also mentions Antonio Gramsci, George Orwell, and Leon Trotsky amongst others. Seems to be a rather biased guilt by association at play with this. There is a point where people can go too far in doing so. Rich Lowry or Robert Bork might be highly unpleasant to many people but he's no Kaczynski or Breivik.

207 darthstar  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:49:14pm

re: #205 researchok

The guy was nuts.

Treating his 'manifesto' seriously is a waste of time.

Agreed, but he's going to get some more attention in the coming weeks as the media looks for balancing examples (besides bin Laden) to help quell the discomfort they feel because this guy doesn't fit the narrative.

208 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:49:23pm

re: #202 Gus 802

And putting "Rich Lowry, William Lind, Gertrude Himmelfarb, Ted Kaczynski, Robert Bork" in the same breadth is a rather wide brush to paint with.

True, although that would be one hell of a dinner party.

209 Gus  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:51:49pm

re: #208 SanFranciscoZionist

True, although that would be one hell of a dinner party.

What with Ted Kaczynski hiding in the corner muttering to himself, "I want to be alone." //

210 theheat  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:53:02pm

One of the common denominators among those itching for armed insurrection is their passion and knowledge of weaponry. They're generally armed to the teeth, and avid loaders and reloaders. These are so beyond your typical person who has a gun for personal protection, they aren't even in the same league.

Pieces of shit like him, and the secessionist/Nazi/neo-Confederate types already have their targets mentally cataloged. Mentally, they've already justified their hate and paranoia. They're simply waiting for opportunity. When the hate and crazy can no longer be contained, they'll make their own opportunities.

211 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 1:57:41pm

re: #190 Decatur Deb

Ha!! Looking for a photo of the Masonic temple (which seems to be in another of the Quad Cities), I hit an entirely New and Wondrous Thing.

Did you know about the Jewish settlement from the time of Charlemagne in Calalus, Arizona?

See Prof. Cyclone Covey's stuff below:

[Link: www.flavinscorner.com...]

Not to be a downer, but this might be part of the things where Mormons purportedly used to salt archaeological sites with relics that suggested the Lost Tribe of Israel made it to the US. There's multiple sites (particularly out west) where amateur archaeologists have found tablets and standing stones, but professional ones have followed up and been very skeptical of the purported age and cultural content--weird anachronistic stuff like an ancient stone that has an inscription in a much later form of Hebrew.

I mean, there've been Jews in the New World basically since Cortez established New Spain (I think 1523 or so), and a lot of Ladino-speaking Sephardim set up communities on the Western side of continent...iirc, stretching north from Acapulco and reaching into AZ and CA. But Charlemange would mean the mid-to-late 700s: that's a total overthrow of all available history and archaeology of Mexico.

I'm going to read the link again and do some digging. While I personally think that ancient peoples moved around more (and had more diffusion) than we give them credit for, some of the specific things being referenced are setting off my skepticism.

212 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 2:12:52pm

re: #211 The Ghost of a Flea

Not to be a downer, but this might be part of the things where Mormons purportedly used to salt archaeological sites with relics that suggested the Lost Tribe of Israel made it to the US. There's multiple sites (particularly out west) where amateur archaeologists have found tablets and standing stones, but professional ones have followed up and been very skeptical of the purported age and cultural content--weird anachronistic stuff like an ancient stone that has an inscription in a much later form of Hebrew.

I mean, there've been Jews in the New World basically since Cortez established New Spain (I think 1523 or so), and a lot of Ladino-speaking Sephardim set up communities on the Western side of continent...iirc, stretching north from Acapulco and reaching into AZ and CA. But Charlemange would mean the mid-to-late 700s: that's a total overthrow of all available history and archaeology of Mexico.

I'm going to read the link again and do some digging. While I personally think that ancient peoples moved around more (and had more diffusion) than we give them credit for, some of the specific things being referenced are setting off my skepticism.

Never ague with a professor named "Cyclone". (I too, have worked in the lucrative field of Archaeology. Then I got a job as a baby photographer, traveling the South with a frog on my head.)

213 austin_blue  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 2:13:19pm

re: #148 Rightwingconspirator

I'd like to point out when I said "I think the ACLU would.." I was offering my speculation/opinion not trying to claim that as a fact. It's an opinion gained in part from the above quote from their spokesman in 1988 as well as other similar incidents.

By the way, RWC, hollow points are not dum-dums. If you read what was said:

Colin Poole, head of surgery at Ringriket Hospital in Honefoss, northwest of Oslo, told the AP news agency surgeons treating 16 gunshot victims have recovered no full bullets:

These bullets more or less exploded inside the body … These bullets inflicted internal damage that’s absolutely horrible.

Hollow points are designed to expand but remain intact. A cross-cut dum-dum, which can be made made but not purchased, begins to diintegrate on contact. Very different animal.

214 Randall Gross  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 2:55:35pm

re: #191 Stanley Sea

Is it me? I can't find @jeffsharlett on twitter.

Sorry friend, just one T at the end there...

215 Randall Gross  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 3:00:04pm

I Disagree with saying "the guy was just nuts" . He's just nuts about white supremacism, he's just nuts about the nazi color scheme (see his video) He was nuts, he was paranoid, but he fed on a certain ideology propagated by the standard racialists in both the US and in Europe. Trying to paint his white nationalism as just being nuts is to be willfully blind.

216 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 3:08:29pm

re: #8 Shiplord Kirel

The various Geneva Conventions have banned expanding and exploding bullets since the 1860s. The minimum size of an exploding projectile was originally set at one pound, which corresponded to a lead ball 37mm in diameter. This is why 37mm was the minimum artillery caliber for decades. The standard has changed over the years, but there is still a prescribed minimum that effectively prohibits explosive or expanding small arms ammunition in warfare.

Small correction: The use of explosive projectiles smaller than 37mm was banned by the St. Petersburg Convention of the 1880's. The Hague Convention of the late 1890's banned expanding rounds. However, I should note that only applies to military forces. In the US, law enforcement often uses expanding rounds.

217 Political Atheist  Sun, Jul 24, 2011 3:37:39pm

re: #213 austin_blue

You are right. I was looking at the UN language "expanding". Looks like this guy went whole hog to fragmenting. Which is all the more deadly. Bastard.


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