Ludicrous Excuses of the Week

Bill O’Reilly denies everything
Wingnuts • Views: 45,117

The right wing blogosphere and Fox News are desperately trying to deflect, deny, and distort the ideology of Oslo terrorist Anders Behring Breivik, and Bill O’Reilly is leading the charge: O’Reilly Shreds Media for Calling Norway Terrorist ‘Christian’.

Now, on Sunday, the “New York Times” headlined “As Horrors Emerged, Norway Charges Christian extremist”. A number of other news organizations like the “LA Times” and Reuters also played up the Christian angle. But Breivik is not a Christian. That’s impossible. No one believing in Jesus commits mass murder. The man might have called himself a Christian on the net, but he is certainly not of that faith.

Also Breivik is not attached to any church, and in fact has criticized the Protestant belief system in general. The Christian angle came from a Norwegian policeman not from any fact finding. Once again, we can find no evidence, none, that this killer practiced Christianity in any way.

See if you can count the lies in those two short paragraphs.

To start with, O’Reilly appears to have completely made up his claim that “the Christian angle came from a Norwegian policeman.” As a matter of fact, the “Christian angle” comes directly from Breivik’s own words; in his manifesto there are many, many references to his belief in a “white Christian” Europe, and he discusses at length his own Christian beliefs.

And the idea that “no one believing in Jesus commits mass murder?” Just another variation on the right wing’s favorite intentional logical fallacy, sometimes referred to as “no true Scotsman” — because it’s quite obvious that Christians are just as capable of committing mass murder as any other human being.

I’ve never seen such craven, dishonest spinning.

Jump to bottom

329 comments
1 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 10:59:08am

No true Christian?

2 Kronocide  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 10:59:10am

O’Reilly went No True Scotsman?

No True Newsman would spout such pap.

3 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:01:35am

This just in, researchers scour Edinburgh, but unable to locate one “true Scottsman” among the entire populace.

4 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:02:05am

He’s obviously been reading liveprayer.com

When asked about what the difference is between the acts of terror committed by Breivik and those committed by those who claim to be of the Muslim faith Keller said, “The difference is simple. When someone like this man in Norway, or a Timothy McVeigh, commit acts of terror, they are doing so in complete contradiction to the teachings of the Bible. When a Muslim commits acts of terror or ‘jihad,’ they are doing so in complete obedience to what the Qu’ran and their false religion teaches.”

Keller added, “When you see someone claiming to be a Christian bombing an abortion clinic, or killing an abortion doctor, or physically attacking someone who has chosen to engage in act of homosexuality, they are not following the teachings of Jesus of how the Bible tells us to live. However, when a Muslim commits acts of terror, killing innocent people, they are simply following the teachings of their false religion. Islam has a 1400 year recorded history of violence, terrorism, and death.”

5 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:02:18am

Food goes in, poop comes out, you can’t explain that!

6 122 Year Old Obama  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:03:16am

Terrorist goes in, corpses come out! You can’t explain that!

7 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:03:41am

All Christian terrorists are lone gunmen.
All Muslim terrorists are EVERY MUSLIM IN THE WORLD!

Please, get it straight people.

8 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:03:48am

re: #5 goddamnedfrank

Food goes in, poop comes out, you can’t explain that!

Trying to figure out which end it comes out of in O’Reilly’s case is the difficult part.

//

9 jaunte  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:04:13am

The crafty O’Reilly, once again pandering to his audience of straw-graspers.

10 garhighway  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:05:14am

re: #9 jaunte

The crafty O’Reilly, once again pandering to his audience of straw-graspers.

And mouth-breathers.

11 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:05:40am

“Once again, we can find no evidence, none, that this killer practiced Christianity in any way.”

Other than modelling his whole “Knights Templar” fantasy on a Christian military order.

12 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:05:45am

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

He’s obviously been reading liveprayer.com

ah!

13 General Nimrod Bodfish  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:05:46am

O’Reilly is full of so much shit in this case that he makes the average outhouse smell like a luxurious garden.

14 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:06:23am

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

“Once again, we can find no evidence, none, that this killer practiced Christianity in any way.”

Other than modelling his whole “Knights Templar” fantasy on a Christian military order.

A mere coincidence!

15 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:06:56am

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

“Once again, we can find no evidence, none, that this killer practiced Christianity in any way.”

Other than modelling his whole “Knights Templar” fantasy on a Christian military order.

Wasn’t there a part in the “Manifesto” where he explained to G-d the righteousness of his plan?

16 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:07:42am

re: #13 commadore183

O’Reilly is full of so much shit in this case that he makes the average outhouse smell like a luxurious garden.

O’Reilly is like the Mr. Creosote of punditry.

17 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:08:07am

Islamist terror has killed more Muslims than Christians. Brevik is a twisted mirror of this sad fact.

18 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:08:08am

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

“Once again, we can find no evidence, none, that this killer practiced Christianity in any way.”

Other than modelling his whole “Knights Templar” fantasy on a Christian military order.

And the part where he wants to forcibly convert Muslims — to Christianity.

19 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:08:50am

re: #18 wrenchwench

And the part where he wants to forcibly convert Muslims — to Christianity.

NOt just Christianity —IIRC, Catholism.

20 makeitstop  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:09:00am

O’Reilly’s mouth opens, lies come out.

Unfortunately, you can explain that.

21 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:09:00am

re: #18 wrenchwench

And the part where he wants to forcibly convert Muslims — to Christianity.

That could mean anything.
/

22 jaunte  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:09:16am

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

“Once again, we can find no evidence, none, that this killer practiced Christianity in any way.”

Other than modelling his whole “Knights Templar” fantasy on a Christian military order.

The new definition of Knight Templar is apparently ‘Godless Darwinist.’

23 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:09:55am

re: #21 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

That could mean anything.
/

//Well maybe he’s a mormon you know they aren’t real Christians!

24 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:10:49am

re: #19 ggt

NOt just Christianity —IIRC, Catholism.

He had two other choices, Orthodox and Protestant.

25 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:10:52am

Breivik’s Manifesto on Islam vs. “Christendom” as “Demographic Warfare”

Indeed Breivik sought to reconstitute a former crusades military force, one that would rescue a “pure” race from incursions by Muslims, who Breivik contends are aided by his enemy, the “multiculturalists,” or “cultural Marxists,” or proponents of “political correctness.” (Berlet argues that much of this scapegoating of “multiculturalism” echoes the writings of American conservatives William Lind and Paul Weyrich.) In the section of the manifesto in which Breivik conducts an interview with himself, he maintains (as Juergensmeyer notes) that he’d accept an atheist into his “armed resistance” group the Knights Templar, as long as it is an atheist “who wants to preserve at least the basics of the European Christian cultural legacy.” The Knights Templar, he writes, is “not a religious organisation but rather a Christian ‘culturalist’ military order.” He continues, it is “essential to understand the difference between a ‘Christian fundamentalist theocracy’ (everything we do not want) and a secular European society based on our Christian cultural heritage (what we do want).”

26 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:10:52am

re: #23 jamesfirecat

//Well maybe he’s a mormon you know they aren’t real Christians!

Or even worse. A Unitarian!

27 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:11:21am

I like the idea that he’s Christian, because Christians who do this kind of thing are facing the judgments of God. Who is not happy with ABB right now. Millstone around the neck and all that.

28 KingKenrod  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:12:15am

This whole discussion about who is a “real” Christian is irrelevant. To Breivik Christianity was just another tribal rallying point. It doesn’t matter whether he practiced it “correctly” or misused it as a tool, and his actions don’t reveal anything generally about other Christians.

29 jaunte  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:12:39am
The second reason the liberal media is pushing the Christian angle is they don’t like Christians very much because we are too judgmental. Many Christians oppose abortion. Gay marriage and legalized narcotics, secular left causes. The media understands the opposition is often based on religion. So they want to diminish Christianity and highlighting so-called Christian-based terror is a way to do that.


Count the twists.

30 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:13:02am
I’ve never seen such craven, dishonest spinning.

Oh, there’s more where that came from.

31 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:13:21am

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

He continues, it is “essential to understand the difference between a ‘Christian fundamentalist theocracy’ (everything we do not want) and a secular European society based on our Christian cultural heritage (what we do want).”

So, how do you get people to adhere to

secular society based on Christian cultural heritage

without forcing a Christian fundamentalist theocracy?

I am so confused.

32 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:14:23am

Breivik was clearly a National Socialist therefore making him a LIBERAL! — Doughy Pantload

33 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:14:57am

re: #31 ggt

Everyone voluntarily practices the same form of religion.

Non-volunteers are shot.

34 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:15:00am
“Once again, we can find no evidence, none, that this killer practiced Christianity in any way.”

OK, so O’Really? can’t find the evidence. But other sane and objective readers can and do.

35 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:15:28am

re: #28 KingKenrod

This whole discussion about who is a “real” Christian is irrelevant. To Breivik Christianity was just another tribal rallying point. It doesn’t matter whether he practiced it “correctly” or misused it as a tool, and his actions don’t reveal anything generally about other Christians.

The point is the same people screaming about this won’t use that same logic when talking about Muslim terrorists.

36 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:16:05am

re: #33 Obdicut

Everyone voluntarily practices the same form of religion.

Non-volunteers are shot.

Yeah, I was trying to wrap my head around the eventual meaning of it.

I still can’t do it.

37 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:16:19am

re: #34 Bulworth

OK, so O’Really? can’t find the evidence. But other sane and objective readers can and do.

This is the same man who can’t find evidence of why the tides go in and out.

38 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:16:39am

re: #37 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

This is the same man who can’t find evidence of why the tides go in and out.

magnetism!

39 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:17:10am

re: #38 ggt

magnetism!

How the f*** does it work?

40 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:18:17am

re: #39 jamesfirecat

How the f*** does it work?

Ropes and pulleys.

41 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:18:35am
Keller added, “When you see someone claiming to be a Christian bombing an abortion clinic, or killing an abortion doctor, or physically attacking someone who has chosen to engage in act of homosexuality, they are not following the teachings of Jesus of how the Bible tells us to live

There needs to be a name for this kind of fallacy. This fallacy implies that only the Jesus of the Gospels is an authoritative Christian example.

Yet, in many other modern contexts (i.e. homosexuality), Christianists like Keller will gladly reach back for some Leviticus or Deuteronomy if it suits them.

42 Randall Gross  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:19:05am

In his manifesto he likes the order of the Catholic church, much as the Godfather of all this, Paul Weyrich did. The stripe of the C. Church that Weyrich favored is the same as Robert Spencer’s and it’s the same division that Gingrich recently joined.

43 General Nimrod Bodfish  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:19:09am

re: #39 jamesfirecat

How the f*** does it work?

A pebble, three geese, and a rubber band.

44 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:19:23am

re: #38 ggt

magnetism!

You can’t explain That!

45 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:19:42am

re: #41 Bulworth

There needs to be a name for this kind of fallacy. This fallacy implies that only the Jesus of the Gospels is an authoritative Christian example.

Yet, in many other modern contexts (i.e. homosexuality), Christianists like Keller will gladly reach back for some Leviticus or Deuteronomy if it suits them.

The radical elements, and clergy, of any religion is one that cannot be denied.

46 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:20:11am

re: #42 Thanos

Meanwhile, the real Catholic church is one of the most non-homogeneous, non-white strains of Christianity.

47 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:20:48am

re: #7 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

All Christian white terrorists lone gunmen are lone gunmen.
All Muslim terrorists are EVERY MUSLIM IN THE WORLD!

Please, get it straight people.

FTFY. White terrorists are never called terrorists. They’re ALWAYS lone gunmen. Only Muslims can be terrorists according to Fox News and Crazy Pam and the rest.

Remember — both Tim McVeigh and the guy who flew his plane into the IRS building here in Austin weren’t terrorists. And few in the right wing blogopshere are calling Breivik a terrorist as far as I can see.

Once he was exposed as a blue-eyed blond white guy who parroted their far right views, the howler monkeys went into full damage control.

48 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:21:13am

re: #41 Bulworth

There needs to be a name for this kind of fallacy. This fallacy implies that only the Jesus of the Gospels is an authoritative Christian example.

Yet, in many other modern contexts (i.e. homosexuality), Christianists like Keller will gladly reach back for some Leviticus or Deuteronomy if it suits them.

I think it’s the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Thing is when it comes to Christianity, no authority on this Earth can declare who is and isn’t a true Christian. It boils down to influence, money and power.


“All are invited, few are chosen.”

49 celticdragon  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:22:19am

I’ve already seen attempts to paint the killer as a leftist revolutionary. There are no such things as facts to these people. There is only propaganda.

50 gdalpert  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:22:40am

You’re missing the key point. It’s not that Breivik isn’t a Christian. The key spinning is that the wingers are convincing themselves that he’s really a liberal.

After all, no true conservative would misuse a gun.

51 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:23:08am

Holy jumping Jesus on a trampoline! For those who missed it in pages, the Shrieking Harpy actually appears to blame Charles for Breivik’s rampage:

SPLC

Breivik, Geller wrote, “includes a long diatribe against Charles Johnson, whom he clearly admired until he felt betrayed enough to snap. The killer speaks about Charles Johnson obsessively and wrings his hands about Johnson’s turn to the left. Could this perhaps have been the provocation? Could this have been what caused him to snap?”
Thoughtful readers would likely wonder if they’d misread the logic there: Breivik was motivated to murder innocent children because Johnson rejected bigotry? But Geller made clear she was deadly serious: “Anders Behring Breivik is responsible for his actions. If anyone incited him to violence, it was Islamic supremacists.” There it is: In Geller’s view, either Breivik was a crazed lone wolf, or Muslims drove him to kill some 76 fellow white people.

H/T Thanos and Wrenchwench

52 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:23:18am
Keller added, “When you see someone claiming to be a Christian bombing an abortion clinic, or killing an abortion doctor, or physically attacking someone who has chosen to engage in act of homosexuality, they are not following the teachings of Jesus of how the Bible tells us to live

Keller should also be referred to the book of Revelation for how unbelieving Christians will fair at the end of time.

53 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:24:27am

re: #49 celticdragon

I’ve already seen attempts to paint the killer as a leftist revolutionary. There are no such things as facts to these people. There is only propaganda.

Who in their right mind would…

Savage: Norway Terrorist Attacks A Left-Wing Conspiracy


The talk show host said on his radio show today that Muslims were responsible for the attacks in Norway, and in an interview with WND doubled down on his claims, saying that he now believes that the attacks were “likely a fabrication of the Labour Party,” whose youth retreat was specifically targeted by the right-wing terrorist. Savage went on to essentially echo the rhetoric of the accused terrorist, Andres Behring Breivik, blaming “Eurosocialism,” progressivism, multiculturalism and immigration for the attacks and hoping that they lead to a backlash against Muslims:

Oh.

54 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:25:21am

re: #50 gdalpert

You’re missing the key point. It’s not that Breivik isn’t a Christian. The key spinning is that the wingers are convincing themselves that he’s really a liberal.

After all, no true conservative would misuse a gun.

1. Conservatives with guns don’t kill people. Only liberals with guns kill people.

2. The day that guns are outlawed is the day that only liberals have guns.

//

55 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:25:37am

re: #49 celticdragon

I’ve already seen attempts to paint the killer as a leftist revolutionary. There are no such things as facts to these people. There is only propaganda.

False Flag! Reichstag Fire! OK City Tim McVeigh was a muslim plant RRWAAWR!

56 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:25:45am

re: #49 celticdragon

I’ve already seen attempts to paint the killer as a leftist revolutionary. There are no such things as facts to these people. There is only propaganda.

Someone else mentioned it around here earlier, but I have to agree. If all he’d done was publish his manifesto, the right would be cheering him on as a new voice of reason and as a True Christian hero for the godless Europeans.

The fact that he mowed down a bunch of kids at a liberal camp is inconvenient for them, but not that much of a problem. They’re all still saying that he’s right, but his methods suck. But that’s only because he didn’t bomb a mosque in the process.

If he’d killed liberals AND Muslims at the same time, they’d be shouting his name from the rooftops instead of coming up with all these absurd excuses.

57 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:26:29am

re: #51 Shiplord Kirel

Holy jumping Jesus on a trampoline! For those who missed it in pages, the Shrieking Harpy actually appears to blame Charles for Breivik’s rampage:

SPLC

H/T Thanos and Wrenchwench

That reads like something out of stalker city if you know what I mean.

58 Summer Seale  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:27:01am

Adolf Hitler believed in Jesus and defined “Mass Murder” for generations to come.

German soldiers wore “God with us” on their belt buckles, including those who dropped the gas canisters into the gas chambers, and those who ordered it.

I’m not sure where Bill O’Reilly is pulling his disinformation from, other than his big gas bloated fat ass, but you can be a Christian and a mass murderer.

I also submit that Anders Breivik is the same exact kind of Christian - identifying with Christianity, not being extremely religious, and yet taking the icons of the most defining militant orders of Christianity that the Crusades had ever produced (much like the Nazis did) to identify with.

He’s a Christian, Bill. That was his entire fucking point: a Christian protesting “the Muslim invasion of Christian Europe”, from his perspective.

Time to own up, Bill: He’s one of you.

59 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:27:08am

re: #57 Gus 802

That reads like something out of stalker city if you know what I mean.

Well, yeah, Pam wrote it on her site Friday or Saturday night.

60 Why I Never!  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:27:22am

re: #57 Gus 802

That reads like something out of stalker city if you know what I mean.

cOMMIE!/

61 Olsonist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:27:29am

Conservatives with guns don’t kill people. Conservatives with guns are defending people. You know, for their own good.

62 William of Orange  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:27:33am
I’ve never seen such craven, dishonest spinning

That is also a bold statement. We’re talking about O’Reilly here, you know. He’s said many cookoo things in the past before this. And there are a lot of statements that could trump this bile.

63 General Nimrod Bodfish  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:27:44am

I doubt even Iranian centrifuges are spinning this fast. Imagine the amount of weapons-grade derp such spinning can produce!

64 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:27:56am
But Breivik is not a Christian. That’s impossible. No one believing in Jesus commits mass murder.

Oh so many moons ago, I was so proud of myself when I made a mention here that Islam would eventually reform itself and get rid of its terrorist and violent elements just like the Christians did. I got my ass handed to me on a silver platter.

The lizards of yore informed me that the Christians never took part in the massacre of Jews 100s of years ago, or rather they weren’t “really Christians”. They twisted themselves into a bunch to try to explain away the Crusades, but don’t ask me how. It was too crazy to understand.

65 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:27:56am

I’ll think I’ll start referring to Pam and her ilk as ‘zero-sum gamers”. It’s all or nothing with them.

66 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:28:09am

re: #58 Summer

Adolf Hitler believed in Jesus and defined “Mass Murder” for generations to come.

German soldiers wore “God with us” on their belt buckles, including those who dropped the gas canisters into the gas chambers, and those who ordered it.

I’m not sure where Bill O’Reilly is pulling his disinformation from, other than his big gas bloated fat ass, but you can be a Christian and a mass murderer.

I also submit that Anders Breivik is the same exact kind of Christian - identifying with Christianity, not being extremely religious, and yet taking the icons of the most defining militant orders of Christianity that the Crusades had ever produced (much like the Nazis did) to identify with.

He’s a Christian, Bill. That was his entire fucking point: a Christian protesting “the Muslim invasion of Christian Europe”, from his perspective.

Time to own up, Bill: He’s one of you.

Pay no attention to all that stuff written by Martin Luther.

//

67 Blue Point  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:28:22am

Bill O’Loony has had a bit of trouble with the truth from time to time. Like night to night. Minute to minute. All aboard the Denial Train. Tool.

68 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:29:11am

re: #66 Gus 802

Pay no attention to all that stuff written by Martin Luther.

//

You know. Like this stuff.

69 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:29:45am

re: #64 marjoriemoon

Oh so many moons ago, I was so proud of myself when I made a mention here that Islam would eventually reform itself and get rid of its terrorist and violent elements just like the Christians did. I got my ass handed to me on a silver platter.

The lizards of yore informed me that the Christians never took part in the massacre of Jews 100s of years ago, or rather they weren’t “really Christians”. They twisted themselves into a bunch to try to explain away the Crusades, but don’t ask me how. It was too crazy to understand.

From now on we’re calling it The Spanish Inquiry, they just wanted to know what the Jews were interested in having for dinner, CAKE OR DEATH!

70 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:29:57am

re: #57 Gus 802

That reads like something out of stalker city if you know what I mean.

There sure were a lot of flouncers who felt Charles was being mean to her.

71 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:30:48am

re: #58 Summer

Adolf Hitler believed in Jesus and defined “Mass Murder” for generations to come.

German soldiers wore “God with us” on their belt buckles, including those who dropped the gas canisters into the gas chambers, and those who ordered it.

I’m not sure where Bill O’Reilly is pulling his disinformation from, other than his big gas bloated fat ass, but you can be a Christian and a mass murderer.

I also submit that Anders Breivik is the same exact kind of Christian - identifying with Christianity, not being extremely religious, and yet taking the icons of the most defining militant orders of Christianity that the Crusades had ever produced (much like the Nazis did) to identify with.

He’s a Christian, Bill. That was his entire fucking point: a Christian protesting “the Muslim invasion of Christian Europe”, from his perspective.

Time to own up, Bill: He’s one of you.

Indeed and what he wanted was a war that pits Christians against Muslims. If that’s not a holy war than what is?

72 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:31:38am

re: #70 wrenchwench

There sure were a lot of flouncers who felt Charles was being mean to her.

I remember cancelling my subscription to her daily digest the moment I read her rant against Charles. I think most of us read her blog then. It was if she turned into a lunatic overnight. When, in reality, she was finally showing us the truth of her beliefs.

73 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:31:41am
74 JEA62  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:32:02am

They (Bill O’Reilly, Pat Buchanon, Alternative Right) are telling us he’s a crazed killer and ranting lunatic.

At the same time, they are telling us the lunatic rantings of the crazed killer are right on the money.

75 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:32:06am

re: #68 Gus 802

You know. Like this stuff.

And he still gets the statues…

Image: statue2.JPG

76 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:32:47am

re: #17 ralphieboy

Islamist terror has killed more Muslims than Christians. Brevik is a twisted mirror of this sad fact.

It’s a question of what words mean. If by “Muslim”, we mean someone who has repeated the shahada in front of enough witnesses, then clearly it is possible for a “true Muslim” to do all sorts of things that the texts held sacred by Muslims say not to do.

In the same way, if by “Christian”, we mean any person who calls himself Christian, then it is clearly possible that Breivik could fit that definition of “Christian”.

If, on the other hand, by “Christian” we mean someone who conforms his actions, more or less and making allowances for human weaknesses, to the core doctrines of Christianity, then Breivik is no Christian. There’s a line somewhere—-it is possible that a Christian, in this sense, would commit a murder, or steal, or commit adultery, etc. But when their whole life trajectory points in a direction contrary to core teachings, that’s not a weak moment or a falling into temptation. It’s not a departure from what the man wants to be and tries to be. Such a man is not a Christian—-he’s a wolf in Christian clothes.

By the same standard, what about those guys who blew up the mosque at Karbala? How could they possibly be “genuine Muslims”?

77 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:32:47am

re: #74 JEA62

They (Bill O’Reilly, Pat Buchanon, Alternative Right) are telling us he’s a crazed killer and ranting lunatic.

At the same time, they are telling us the lunatic rantings of the crazed killer are right on the money.

Pfft. You’re not supposed to think things through. That upsets the narrative.

78 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:33:02am

re: #69 jamesfirecat

From now on we’re calling it The Spanish Inquiry, they just wanted to know what the Jews were interested in having for dinner, CAKE OR DEATH!

LOL Torquemata! Don’t ask him for mercy! Torquemata! Don’t ask him for forgiveness! You can’t talk him outa anything!

79 Locker  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:33:21am

The wingers and baggers don’t have a problem calling middle eastern terrorists “Muslim” even though they go against the faith. Guess it’s only OK for “them”…

80 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:33:31am

re: #74 JEA62

They (Bill O’Reilly, Pat Buchanon, Alternative Right) are telling us he’s a crazed killer and ranting lunatic.

At the same time, they are telling us the lunatic rantings of the crazed killer are right on the money.

“We should not cast aside the lessons of National Socialism, pure Aryan Bloodlines and the Master Race just because a few bad apples took it a bit far.”

81 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:33:35am

re: #75 Gus 802

And he still gets the statues…

Image: statue2.JPG

Well, he should be recognized for speaking some truth to power. He challenged the RC Church when it definitely needed to be challenged. It was a turning point in history.

82 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:34:14am

re: #75 Gus 802

And he still gets the statues…

Image: statue2.JPG

And a tomb, in a church.

But yeah. Nothing to see here either aye?

Luther was the most widely read author of his generation, and he acquired the status of a prophet within Germany.[208] According to the prevailing view among historians,[209] his anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[210] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an “ideal underpinning” for the National Socialists’ attacks on Jews.[211] Reinhold Lewin writes that “whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther.” According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Heinrich Himmler wrote admiringly of his writings and sermons on the Jews in 1940.[212] The city of Nuremberg presented a first edition of On the Jews and their Lies to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, on his birthday in 1937; the newspaper described it as the most radically anti-Semitic tract ever published.[213] It was publicly exhibited in a glass case at the Nuremberg rallies and quoted in a 54-page explanation of the Aryan Law by Dr. E.H. Schulz and Dr. R. Frercks.[214] On 17 December 1941, seven Protestant regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, “since after his bitter experience Luther had already suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory.” According to Daniel Goldhagen, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium of Luther’s writings shortly after Kristallnacht, for which Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church in the University of Oxford argued that Luther’s writing was a “blueprint.”[215] Sasse applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, “On 10 November 1938, on Luther’s birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.” The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words “of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.”[216] According to Professor Dick Geary, the Nazis won a larger share of the vote in Protestant than in Catholic areas of Germany in elections of 1928 to November 1932.[217]

83 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:34:54am

re: #76 lostlakehiker

Just once, could we give the Magical Balance Fairy some time off?

Also, some reading material for you:

en.wikipedia.org

84 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:34:59am

re: #64 marjoriemoon


I used to get really pissed off at the attempts to portray Islam as historically the enemy of Judaism. They were iffy, basically. The Christians? Those were the ones who, historically, oppressed the shit out of and massacred the Jews. The Christians hold the all-time antisemite record to this date. It is offensive as hell when people attempt to minimize that.

85 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:36:38am

re: #84 Obdicut

I used to get really pissed off at the attempts to portray Islam as historically the enemy of Judaism. They were iffy, basically. The Christians? Those were the ones who, historically, oppressed the shit out of and massacred the Jews. The Christians hold the all-time antisemite record to this date. It is offensive as hell when people attempt to minimize that.

???

86 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:36:46am

re: #84 Obdicut

I used to get really pissed off at the attempts to portray Islam as historically the enemy of Judaism. They were iffy, basically. The Christians? Those were the ones who, historically, oppressed the shit out of and massacred the Jews. The Christians hold the all-time antisemite record to this date. It is offensive as hell when people attempt to minimize that.

It seems to depend on who is Caliph and who is Pope.

There have good leaders in both faiths and there have been bad leaders in both faiths.

87 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:36:46am

re: #64 marjoriemoon

Oh so many moons ago, I was so proud of myself when I made a mention here that Islam would eventually reform itself and get rid of its terrorist and violent elements just like the Christians did. I got my ass handed to me on a silver platter.

Christianity did not reform itself until it developed and adopted a historical-critical approach to its scriptures: recognizing the fact that the Bible was written by human beings in a particular social/historical context and evaluating them in that light.

As seeing them as divinely inspired but not the True and Unchanging Word of God as Dictated From Heaven.

Islam is a long way from reaching that stage, and if anything, they are moving away from it. And the most secular states in the Arab world (Egypt under Mubarak, Libya under Qaddafi, Iraq under Saddam and Turkey under the Military junta) are/were also corrupt dictatorships.

Which places us in a no-win situation vis-a-vis exerting any influence on the Muslim world to make any social or political progress.

88 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:38:06am

re: #72 ggt

I remember cancelling my subscription to her daily digest the moment I read her rant against Charles. I think most of us read her blog then. It was if she turned into a lunatic overnight. When, in reality, she was finally showing us the truth of her beliefs.

My computer would stall if I tried to load her blog. It’s always been that way. When I upgraded a couple of years ago, it was easier to get the front page to load, but I still didn’t do it very often.

Crappiest blog on the internet.

89 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:39:24am

re: #88 wrenchwench

My computer would stall if I tried to load her blog. It’s always been that way. When I upgraded a couple of years ago, it was easier to get the front page to load, but I still didn’t do it very often.

Crappiest blog on the internet.

Haven’t even tried since that day I cancelled her digest.

90 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:39:31am

re: #88 wrenchwench

My computer would stall if I tried to load her blog. It’s always been that way. When I upgraded a couple of years ago, it was easier to get the front page to load, but I still didn’t do it very often.

Crappiest blog on the internet.

Either that or your computer has good taste.

91 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:39:41am

re: #85 NJDhockeyfan

???

What are you confused about?

92 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:39:49am

re: #76 lostlakehiker

The point is that saying someone was automatically capable or incapable of committing an atrocity because of a belief system is ridiculous.

This guy was clearly guided by Christian beliefs, even though the overwhelming majority of Christians wouldn’t do what he did.

The 9/11 hijackers were clearly guided by Islamic beliefs, even though the overwhelming majority of Muslims wouldn’t do what they did.

You can’t paint them all with the same brush, but you also can’t say he wasn’t one of them either.

93 Why I Never!  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:39:50am

re: #88 wrenchwench

My computer would stall if I tried to load her blog. It’s always been that way. When I upgraded a couple of years ago, it was easier to get the front page to load, but I still didn’t do it very often.

Crappiest blog on the internet.

I get a headache just looking at her site. Forget trying to find anything.

94 John Q  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:39:54am

“I’ve never seen such craven, dishonest spinning.”

Guess you haven’t watched O’Reilly’s show before this, then.

It’s a constant there.

95 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:40:09am

re: #81 ggt

Well, he should be recognized for speaking some truth to power. He challenged the RC Church when it definitely needed to be challenged. It was a turning point in history.

Well. Those are mighty big bones to have in the closet. The Antisemitism and anti-Judaism of Martin Luther that is.

96 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:40:11am

re: #64 marjoriemoon

Oh so many moons ago, I was so proud of myself when I made a mention here that Islam would eventually reform itself and get rid of its terrorist and violent elements just like the Christians did. I got my ass handed to me on a silver platter.

The lizards of yore informed me that the Christians never took part in the massacre of Jews 100s of years ago, or rather they weren’t “really Christians”. They twisted themselves into a bunch to try to explain away the Crusades, but don’t ask me how. It was too crazy to understand.

Who threw the Jews down the well?

97 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:40:48am

re: #95 Gus 802

Well. Those are mighty big bones to have in the closet. The Antisemitism and anti-Judaism of Martin Luther that is.

Where would we be if he hadn’t challenged the RC Church?

It needed to be done.

98 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:41:33am

re: #96 Alouette

Who threw the Jews down the well?

**shiver***

99 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:42:14am

re: #97 ggt

Where would we be if he hadn’t challenged the RC Church?

It needed to be done.

I really can’t answer that question.

100 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:42:22am

re: #76 lostlakehiker

I used the term “Islamist terror”, I left it open as to whether these terrorists are “true Muslims” or not, just as the matter of Brevik’s Christianity is open to debate.

The anti-Jihadists would turn the argument on its head and insist that Muslims who do not believe in armed conquest of the world, who simply live peacefully, practice and live their faith quietly and try to get along with Muslims of other denominations as well as non-Muslims are not “true Muslims”, which is exactly what the fundamentalists mullahs preach.

Amazing how warped minds think alike.

101 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:42:40am

re: #84 Obdicut

I used to get really pissed off at the attempts to portray Islam as historically the enemy of Judaism. They were iffy, basically. The Christians? Those were the ones who, historically, oppressed the shit out of and massacred the Jews. The Christians hold the all-time antisemite record to this date. It is offensive as hell when people attempt to minimize that.

One very vicious Muslim hater by the name of Ploome Heinini claimed that the Rambam hated Muslims which was patently false by every scholar who has studied him. In fact, his family left Israel to move back to Egypt because of the terrible treatment of Jews by Christians in Israel as the time.

Mind you, some of the Muslim conquerors were just as vicious as the Christians, but not all. The Rambam found a better home among Muslims.

102 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:42:45am

re: #97 ggt

Where would we be if he hadn’t challenged the RC Church?

It needed to be done.

But he totally undercut the Papal Indulgence market!

103 S'latch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:43:01am

A Christian committing an act of murder? You can’t explain that.

104 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:44:01am

re: #102 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But he totally undercut the Papal Indulgence market!

heresy in the greastest degree!

105 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:44:10am

re: #58 Summer

Adolf Hitler believed in Jesus and defined “Mass Murder” for generations to come.

German soldiers wore “God with us” on their belt buckles, including those who dropped the gas canisters into the gas chambers, and those who ordered it.


You have your service branches mixed up. The SS were not acting in the name of Christianity. I just last month spoke with a civilian survivor of the battle of the bulge. SS, quartered on his family’s home, smashed and desecrated every Catholic item, Christmas tree to rosary beads to crucifix to Bible, in a drunken rage on Christmas Eve, in his home near the village of Houffalize. They didn’t wear a Gott Mit Uns belt buckle. SS belt buckle slogan different [Wikipedia]

Both field SS, and camp SS, were SS, not regular Wehrmacht. And the SS,—-they weren’t Christian, at least not going by their belt buckles.

106 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:44:17am

re: #101 marjoriemoon

One very vicious Muslim hater by the name of Ploome Heinini claimed that the Rambam hated Muslims which was patently false by every scholar who has studied him. In fact, his family left Israel to move back to Egypt because of the terrible treatment of Jews by Christians in Israel as the time.

Mind you, some of the Muslim conquerors were just as vicious as the Christians, but not all. The Rambam found a better home among Muslims.

Rambam did not particularly care for Christianity or Islam, but he chose to live among Muslims and not among Christians.

107 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:44:35am

re: #80 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

“We should not cast aside the lessons of National Socialism, pure Aryan Bloodlines and the Master Race just because a few bad apples took it a bit far.”


One of the most amazing moments in German TV humor came when a comic, Dieter Hallervorden, came out as a parody of Nazi politician and made a similar statement: “Adolf Hitler was an opportunist who abused Naziism for his own ends. We will not permit such a thing!”

I could not believe that he got away with that on German TV, but I guess he had enough of a reputation as a satirist to pull it off.

108 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:46:03am

re: #87 ralphieboy

Christianity did not reform itself until it developed and adopted a historical-critical approach to its scriptures: recognizing the fact that the Bible was written by human beings in a particular social/historical context and evaluating them in that light.

As seeing them as divinely inspired but not the True and Unchanging Word of God as Dictated From Heaven.

Islam is a long way from reaching that stage, and if anything, they are moving away from it. And the most secular states in the Arab world (Egypt under Mubarak, Libya under Qaddafi, Iraq under Saddam and Turkey under the Military junta) are/were also corrupt dictatorships.

Which places us in a no-win situation vis-a-vis exerting any influence on the Muslim world to make any social or political progress.

I would argue the bolded sentence with you. Most Christians who identify as Christians say the bible IS the word of God. So do Jews.

Islam is closer today than it has ever been because of the revolutions. I believe it’s a path forward that can never be truly turned backwards again. It may take another 100 or 200 years, but it will be.

109 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:46:07am

I want to point the finger at another gang of reckless media shills who overlap, but are not identical to, the screeching Muslim-haters. That is Alex Jones and the commercial conspiracy theory industry of which he is the leading figure.

One thing connects all the western terrorists; Tim McVeigh, Breivik, that freak who shot up the Holocaust Museum, and all the others. That is a positive disbelief in the existence of legal means of redress. To them, courts and elections are a sham, manipulated behind the scenes by powerful forces who cannot be countered by any open or legal means. This is the hallmark, the bedrock belief, of the conspiracy narrative, and a big part of its appeal.

“Conspiracy theories are popular because no matter what they posit, they are all actually comforting, because they all are models of radical simplicity.” - Novelist William Gibson, 2007

It is why I have always thought these people were so dangerous. As the excellent Wikipedia article on Conspiracy Theory says:

Some scholars argue that conspiracy theories once limited to fringe audiences have become commonplace in mass media, contributing to conspiracism emerging as a cultural phenomenon in the United States of the late 20th and early 21st centuries, and the possible replacement of democracy by conspiracy as the dominant paradigm of political action in the public mind.(emphasis added)
110 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:46:27am

re: #101 marjoriemoon

Yeah. Some of the fundamentalist Muslims, like the ones who conquered the original Muslim Spanish territories, the Alholmeds, were viciously anti-semetic. But many of them were welcoming of the Jews. Christians, historically, were the exact opposite— the standard was oppression with frequent pogroms, and the ones who even allowed Jews to live in their territories were few and far between.

I also think that Hitler achieved what he did thanks to Luther’s fanatical antisemitism and the genera antisemitism that had literally been preached in Europe for centuries.

That has little to do with most of the Christian religions today, but it’s a good reminder that religions, and societies, change over time.

111 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:46:45am

Strangely enough. Breivik answers that question:

Sure, Martin Luther was an essential figure and it is thanks to the Protestant revolution that Europe was “allowed to become” the technological and scientific superpower it is. Hadn’t it been for the separation of Church and state we may have still lived in the dark ages.

The Protestant reformation/revolution was needed and has resulted in the following positive changes (all these changes have been adopted by the Catholic countries/Catholic church as well):

• The partial separation of Church and state (significantly limiting the political power of the Church)
• Allowing European countries/companies all rights in regards to research and development (scientific evolution).
• Removing corrupt policies relating to indulgences/absolution (financial compensation to avoid purgatory or the practice of indulgences being sold)
• Allowing mass to be held on non-Latin languages

Page 1,132 of his manifesto.

Incidentally, Kristallnacht occurred on Martin Luther’s birthday.

112 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:47:35am

re: #105 lostlakehiker

Plenty of Werhmact participated in the mass killing of Jews. And, obviously, the majority of the SS were Christian.

113 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:47:39am

re: #96 Alouette

Who threw the Jews down the well?

Oh yeesh. Here they are yelling how the Muslims don’t stand against terrorism, blah blah blah, but they can’t even admit to their own sin 100s of years ago when today it hardly even matters. I mean, in the sense that Jews and Christians are friends today.

And here they are STILL doing it.

114 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:47:43am

re: #108 marjoriemoon

I would argue the bolded sentence with you. Most Christians who identify as Christians say the bible IS the word of God. So do Jews.

Islam is closer today than it has ever been because of the revolutions. I believe it’s a path forward that can never be truly turned backwards again. It may take another 100 or 200 years, but it will be.

I was told that the Bible was the Word of God, written by men and interpreted by men.

115 Jack Burton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:48:04am

re: #101 marjoriemoon

One very vicious Muslim hater by the name of Ploome Heinini claimed that the Rambam hated Muslims which was patently false by every scholar who has studied him. In fact, his family left Israel to move back to Egypt because of the terrible treatment of Jews by Christians in Israel as the time.

Mind you, some of the Muslim conquerors were just as vicious as the Christians, but not all. The Rambam found a better home among Muslims.

Ploome was a big fan of Baruch Goldstein IIRC (or someone of his ilk) so such statements are in no way surprising. They can never present Teh Enemy™ in a good light ever.

116 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:48:17am

re: #84 Obdicut

I used to get really pissed off at the attempts to portray Islam as historically the enemy of Judaism.

Hamas and the PLO play a big role in perpetrating that image…

117 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:48:33am

re: #114 ggt

I was told that the Bible was the Word of God, written by men and interpreted by men.

Talked to a Dominionist lately?

118 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:49:11am

re: #116 ralphieboy

Hamas and the PLO play a big role in perpetrating that image…

Yes, among Muslims, they do. But the attempt to rewrite history by some— note, some, not all, nor most— Christians to diminish past misdeeds is not only repellent but dangerous.

119 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:50:22am

re: #118 Obdicut

Yes, among Muslims, they do. But the attempt to rewrite history by some— note, some, not all, nor most— Christians to diminish past misdeeds is not only repellent but dangerous.

Who needs other books when they’ve got one that has everything?

120 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:51:19am

re: #119 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Who needs other books when they’ve got one that has everything?

Playboy?

121 Jack Burton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:51:23am

re: #114 ggt

I was told that the Bible was the Word of God, written by men and interpreted by men.

It was dictated to the Apostles, as is, in the Lord’s language: English.

122 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:52:05am

re: #109 Shiplord Kirel

One thing connects all the western terrorists; Tim McVeigh, Breivik, that freak who shot up the Holocaust Museum, and all the others. That is a positive disbelief in the existence of legal means of redress.

Excellent point.

123 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:52:32am

re: #118 Obdicut

Yes, among Muslims, they do. But the attempt to rewrite history by some— note, some, not all, nor most— Christians to diminish past misdeeds is not only repellent but dangerous.

Never bring up your own peoples’ bad history and always bring up the bad history of your enemies.

//

124 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:52:33am

re: #121 ArchangelMichael

How the Pope somehow channels Peter or Paul or whichever one he is supposed to be representing, I never understand.

125 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:52:52am

re: #114 ggt

I was told that the Bible was the Word of God, written by men and interpreted by men.

Well, God hasn’t any fingers :)

126 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:54:01am

re: #120 Varek Raith

Playboy?

The Bible (alternate edition)

127 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:55:56am

re: #122 wrenchwench

Excellent point.

Yes, I thought about that. ABB was intelligent and educated. He had the means to pursue any one of many positive methods for changing the law or society as he wanted.

I thought one of the reasons for democratic law and government was to give citizens the means to redress grievances so that resorting to violence isn’t necessary.

It’s obvious that time wasn’t the issue for him because he planned for (?) years and expects his ideas to take hold over many many more. Pursing a legal route would have taken just as much time.

128 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:56:20am

re: #124 ggt

How the Pope somehow channels Peter or Paul or whichever one he is supposed to be representing, I never understand.

The Catholic church, where seniority is based on hat size. In the secret Vatican archives, mention is given about Jesus’s oversize foam cowboy hat and the Almighty’s Mariachi band sombrero.

129 Jack Burton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:56:30am

re: #126 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Bible (alternate edition)

Some of that is more believable than the “original” taken at face value. Definitely beats anything LRH wrote too.

130 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:57:03am

re: #128 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Catholic church, where seniority is based on hat size HEIGHT. In the secret Vatican archives, mention is given about Jesus’s oversize foam cowboy hat and the Almighty’s Mariachi band sombrero.

FTFY

131 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:57:23am

Who was the Pope who tried to stop the pogroms against the Jews?

132 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:57:32am

The bigger the cheese the taller the hat.

133 Locker  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:57:48am

re: #84 Obdicut

I used to get really pissed off at the attempts to portray Islam as historically the enemy of Judaism. They were iffy, basically. The Christians? Those were the ones who, historically, oppressed the shit out of and massacred the Jews. The Christians hold the all-time antisemite record to this date. It is offensive as hell when people attempt to minimize that.

Excellent post. Extremely relevant due to the fact that we have members on this very site who try to promote this idea on a daily basis. Kudos.

134 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:59:17am

re: #127 ggt

Yes, I thought about that. ABB was intelligent and educated. He had the means to pursue any one of many positive methods for changing the law or society as he wanted.

I thought one of the reasons for democratic law and government was to give citizens the means to redress grievances so that resorting to violence isn’t necessary.

It’s obvious that time wasn’t the issue for him because he planned for (?) years and expects his ideas to take hold over many many more. Pursing a legal route would have taken just as much time.

Breivik went after the very structure, the buildings that housed the government, as well as the political party in power. He wanted to destroy the rule of law as it is, in order to substitute his own.

135 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:59:23am

re: #133 Locker

I haven’t seen anyone do it in quite some time.

136 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:59:25am

re: #112 Obdicut

Plenty of Werhmact participated in the mass killing of Jews. And, obviously, the majority of the SS were Christian.

Obviously, this random sample of SS were pretty much all of them NOT Christian. How much clearer can they make themselves on the question, than with an orgy of desecration on Christmas eve?

Regular Wehrmacht participated to the extent that they moved the front line forward and provided a shield behind which the extermination could proceed. A small fraction of them may have gone further. But history records that as a general rule, Wehrmacht regulars declined to be drawn into the extermination business. Officers don’t get to make policy, but an officer can argue that soldiers can lose their edge when put into fights against people who can’t shoot back, etc. That there is, after all, a war at the front, and that the shoemaker should stick to his last.

I’ve read a lot of WW2 history, and met some participants from both Russian and German side. Including, blech, a few who were part of the dirty work. There really is a world of difference between the regulars and that other batch. It goes beyond belt buckles.

But the original post that triggered this exchange made an error of fact in asserting that SS wore Gott Mit Uns belt buckles. They did not.

137 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:59:46am

re: #130 Gus 802

FTFY

The Catholic Church is the Irken Empire?

138 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:01:15pm

re: #137 Lidane

The Catholic Church is the Irken Empire?

Well, as soon as aliens are discovered, you can be sure the Vatican will have a space ship ready to take-off. It will be filled with Jesuit Missionaries ready to spread the Word.

139 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:01:33pm

re: #137 Lidane

The Catholic Church is the Irken Empire?

Weren’t you banished? Shouldn’t you be…frying something?

140 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:02:42pm

re: #134 wrenchwench

Breivik went after the very structure, the buildings that housed the government, as well as the political party in power. He wanted to destroy the rule of law as it is, in order to substitute his own.

I call it Psychopathic Immaturity.

141 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:02:47pm

re: #131 marjoriemoon

Who was the Pope who tried to stop the pogroms against the Jews?

This?

1347 Black Death, charges of well poisoning against Jews throughout Europe; pogroms; Pope Clement VI in Avignon, Emperor Charles IV of Germany, and King Pedro IV of Aragon try to protect Jews, but to no avail, especially since they profit from the pogroms as well.

More here: Ger 312 Jews 14th - 17th Centuries

142 Olsonist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:02:58pm

re: #131 marjoriemoon

Who was the Pope who tried to stop the pogroms against the Jews?

Who was the Pope who tried to stop his priests for raping children?

143 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:04:00pm

re: #141 Gus 802

This?

More here: Ger 312 Jews 14th - 17th Centuries

This is up to 1496:

1347 Black Death, charges of well poisoning against Jews throughout Europe; pogroms; Pope Clement VI in Avignon, Emperor Charles IV of Germany, and King Pedro IV of Aragon try to protect Jews, but to no avail, especially since they profit from the pogroms as well.

1364 University of Cracow founded on the site of former Jewish houses

1367 Jews are expelled from Hungary

1384 Jews are expelled from Lucerne, Switzerland (also from Berne, 1408 and 1427; Fribourg, 1428, Zurich, 1436, and Geneva, 1490). Increasingly Christian money lenders take over the banking business from Jews and undermine their competitors’ livelihood

c.1400 Geoffrey Chaucer writes his Canterbury Tales, in which he includes the highly anti-Semitic “Prioress’s Tale”

1407 Anti-Jewish riots in Poland, but Jews still fare best in Poland and Lithuania during that time

1413 Disputation of Tortosa convoked by Pope Benedict XIII in an attempt to convert the Jews, charges against Jews mostly based on Ramond Martini’s Pugio Fidei (Dagger of Faith)

1415 Antipope Benedict XIII issues a bull prohibiting Jews from making crucifixes

1420 Hussites revolt in Bohemia and Moravia, also directed against Jews

1421 Jews massacred in Vienna, expelled from Linz, Cologne (1424), Augsburg (1439), Bavaria (1442 and 1450), and the crown cities of Moravia (1454)

1429 Pope Martin V issues a bull forbidding the Franciscans to preach against Jews, or to infringe on their religious practices

1442 Pope Eugenius IV (1431-1447) issues an edict forbidding Italian Jews to build new synagogues, lend money for interest, hold public offices, etc.

1453 Jews are expelled from Breslau as a result of ritual murder libel

1464 First Chair of Hebrew established at the University of Bologna

1473 First two Hebrew book presses, one in Reggio di Calabria, the other in Pieva da Saca, followed by Naples and Mantua

1480 Queen Isabella of Castile instructs her court painter to prohibit Jews from painting religious figures

1483 Jews are expelled from all of Andalusia

1488 First complete edition of Hebrew Bible printed in Soncino, Italy

1491 Jews of Ravenna are expelled (also from Perugia, 1485; Gubbio, 1486; Campo San Pietro, 1492; Brescia, 1494)

1492 Jews are expelled from Spain; majority flees to Portugal, where they will be expelled 1496/1497, and to North Africa and Turkey. Turkey the only country to welcome Jews

1494 Jews expelled from Florence and other Tuscan cities with the fall of the house of Medici; when the latter regain the power in 1513, Jews are allowed to return

1495 Jews are expelled from Lithuania because of wide-spread fear of Jewish proselytization, especially since they hold highest governmental offices; decree revoked soon thereafter, privileges for Jews renewed in 1503

1495 Charles VIII of France occupies the kingdom of Naples, persecutes Jews who had fled there from Spain; Jews will be expelled from Naples in 1510 and again in 1541

144 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:04:19pm

re: #139 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Weren’t you banished? Shouldn’t you be…frying something?

145 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:04:34pm

re: #141 Gus 802

This?

More here: Ger 312 Jews 14th - 17th Centuries

Ah, yes it was during the plagues? Papal Decree that no one read or listened to.

Same thing after the Civil War. Priests were supposed to go out and “save” the souls of the newly freed slaves. Mostly ignored.

146 Winny Spencer  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:04:51pm

Wow, is it open season on Christians today?

147 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:06:13pm

re: #136 lostlakehiker

Obviously, this random sample of SS were pretty much all of them NOT Christian. How much clearer can they make themselves on the question, than with an orgy of desecration on Christmas eve?


Why are you presenting an anecdote as though its statistical analysis? Are you just joking?

Regular Wehrmacht participated to the extent that they moved the front line forward and provided a shield behind which the extermination could proceed.

Why do you believe this to be true? Especially on the Eastern Front, Wehrmacht units certainly did participate in the mass killings of Jews. There is documented proof.

forum.axishistory.com

Can you cite a source that claims that very few Wehrmact units participated in the mass killing of Jews?

Please note this:

the commanders of the 6th, 11th, and 17th Armies—von Reichenau, von Manstein, and Hoth—called for the complete extermination of the Soviet machine war as well as the annihilation of the “Jewish-Bolshevik system”, thus open a collaboration of the Army and Einsatgruppen to murdered ‘the enemies of the Reich”

Those are regular armies.

148 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:06:20pm

re: #146 Winny Spencer

Wow, is it open season on Christians today?

No, just rwChristiannjs.

149 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:06:30pm

Ugh. This entire sad, ugly incident just keeps getting sadder and uglier.

150 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:06:35pm

re: #146 Winny Spencer

Wow, is it open season on Christians today?

I take it that you’re not a fan of Dale Carnegie.

151 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:07:01pm

re: #146 Winny Spencer

Wow, is it open season on Christians today?

The historical truth of Christian outrages against Jews is not an attack on Christians. I even explicitly said this had very little to do with modern Christianity.

What do you see as being ‘open season’?

152 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:07:18pm

re: #146 Winny Spencer

What would make you ask that?

153 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:07:23pm

re: #146 Winny Spencer

Wow, is it open season on Christians today?

If you mean “are people not letting ABB off as a lone gunman completely detached from any external influences”, then yes.

154 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:07:32pm

re: #148 ggt

No, just rwChristiannjs.

OK, and Bill O’Reilly.

155 S'latch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:07:33pm

re: #146 Winny Spencer

Yes, but don’t forget, Obama is also a Christian.

156 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:07:50pm

re: #122 wrenchwench
re: #127 ggt

Yes, I thought about that. ABB was intelligent and educated. He had the means to pursue any one of many positive methods for changing the law or society as he wanted.

I thought one of the reasons for democratic law and government was to give citizens the means to redress grievances so that resorting to violence isn’t necessary.

It’s obvious that time wasn’t the issue for him because he planned for (?) years and expects his ideas to take hold over many many more. Pursing a legal route would have taken just as much time.

Conspiracy theorists are profoundly and literally anti-democratic. This is because unlike, say, monarchists, they do not oppose democracy on some philosophical grounds. They simply assert that it doesn’t exist.

157 Spocomptonite  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:08:03pm

Given different standards (i.e, my own), nearly everyone who is saying he couldn’t be Christian because Christian aren’t extremists, are themselves also not Christian because they too are extremists. They also use the same, yet opposite, string of thought to reach the conclusion that only true Muslims are violent.

The No True Scotsman fallacy has become the No True Christian fallacy.

158 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:08:11pm

re: #154 ggt

OK, and Bill O’Reilly.

But he’s not a real Christian.
/

159 Olsonist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:08:39pm

re: #155 Lawrence Schmerel

Yes, but don’t forget, Obama is also a Christian.

I thought he was from Hawaii?

160 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:08:45pm

re: #158 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But he’s not a real Christian.
/

No, he is an Irish Catholic *hic*.

161 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:09:22pm

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

He’s obviously been reading liveprayer.com

That is the most annoying piece-of-crap argument out there.

162 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:09:26pm

re: #146 Winny Spencer

Wow, is it open season on Christians today?


Rather ironic coming from you.
;)

163 Jack Burton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:09:42pm

re: #155 Lawrence Schmerel

Yes, but don’t forget, Obama is also a Christian.

NOO!!! He’s a Secular Marxist Islamist!!!

164 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:09:49pm

re: #162 Varek Raith

Rather ironic coming from you.
;)

Big time.

165 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:09:53pm

re: #146 Winny Spencer

Wow, is it open season on Christians today?

No. However, as always here, it is open season on hypocrites and fools.

166 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:10:01pm

re: #161 SanFranciscoZionist

That is the most annoying piece-of-crap argument out there.

I’ll wait till you hit my post from Savage.

167 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:10:20pm

re: #165 Shiplord Kirel

No. However, as always here, it is open season on hypocrites and fools.

And disco.

168 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:10:30pm

re: #159 Olsonist

I thought he was from Hawaii?

Not Hawaii. Kenya.

//

169 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:10:35pm

When you talk about any religion, you have to distinguish between four levels:
1) those who identify with the religion from a cultural/social standpoint, generally respect its major tenets but only loosely obey its rules or rituals (I think that a majority of Christians and a lot of Muslims in the west fall into this category)

2) Those who obey the rules and rituals of their religion (or try to) but do not try to impose them on others

3) Those who obey the tenets of their faith closely and approve of eforts to impose them on others through legislation

4) those who would use force to impose their religion on others or approve of doing so.

We need to be able to distinguish between these approaches to religion before we start applying guilt by association.

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:10:40pm

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

“Once again, we can find no evidence, none, that this killer practiced Christianity in any way.”

Other than modelling his whole “Knights Templar” fantasy on a Christian military order.

Maybe it’s the killer they should be saying all this stuff to?

171 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:10:51pm

re: #167 Varek Raith

And disco.

And Justin Bieber.

172 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:10:55pm

I’m off for a while.

Have a great day all!

173 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:11:20pm

re: #19 ggt

NOt just Christianity —IIRC, Catholism.

No, he listed several churches that the Muslim immigrants would be free to choose between. Very liberal of him.

174 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:11:37pm

re: #171 Gus 802

And Justin Bieber.

Why do you hate her?

175 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:11:37pm

re: #171 Gus 802

And Justin Bieber.

And Twilight.

176 ProBosniaLiberal  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:11:46pm

re: #133 Locker

My thinking is that, in order for Islam to move forward, we must relearn from the philosophers of the Islamic Golden Age, such as Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Rushd (Averroes), and Ali Sina (Avicenna).

177 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:11:58pm

re: #167 Varek Raith

And disco.

If you had told me in 1977 that there would come a time when I would enjoy hearing a little disco music, I would have asked you to kill me right then. Fortunately, you weren’t born yet.

178 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:12:15pm

re: #171 Gus 802

And Justin Bieber.

AND PENGUINS!!!

179 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:12:39pm

re: #178 Slumbering Behemoth

AND PENGUINS!!!

Praise Gravel.

180 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:12:39pm

In case it’s not clearly stated:

Most modern forms of Christianity are perfectly peaceable with the Jews. Catholicism especially has made enormous changes and even made a theological concession for Jews not converting.

Even those Christian religions that think that Jews, like everyone else, should really convert to be saved, really mean that in the best ways.

A few, some unfortunately large, strains of Protestantism still carry some of the anti-Semitic baggage of Luther. Mostly this works out as cant and myth rather than actual persecution of Jews.

However, this is a recent development. Very, very, very recent.

181 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:13:04pm

re: #106 Alouette

Rambam did not particularly care for Christianity or Islam, but he chose to live among Muslims and not among Christians.

As far as I remember, Maimonides considered Christianity to be avodah zarah, and Islam to be authentically monotheistic, therefore chose to live among Muslims.

182 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:13:17pm

But not frogs. Or turtles. Or chocolate. Never chocolate.

183 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:14:16pm

re: #177 wrenchwench

If you had told me in 1977 that there would come a time when I would enjoy hearing a little disco music, I would have asked you to kill me right then. Fortunately, you weren’t born yet.

and to think, the Stones recorded the greatest disco song ever

184 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:14:43pm

re: #146 Winny Spencer

Wow, is it open season on Christians today?

Seems to be. I’m staying out of it. The shit is way too deep.

185 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:16:09pm

re: #184 NJDhockeyfan

Seems to be. I’m staying out of it. The shit is way too deep.

How on earth is acknowledging Christianity’s historic antisemitism— especially in light of Ander’s manifesto, which contains a plan for killing and deporting Jews— ‘open season’ on Christianity?

If Christianity’s history is objectionable, that is not the fault of those who are speaking about it.

186 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:16:25pm

re: #76 lostlakehiker

Definition through actions is nonsensical definition, because then before calling someone a Christian you have to check whether or not he acts in accordance with Christians teachings.

187 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:17:04pm

re: #87 ralphieboy

Christianity did not reform itself until it developed and adopted a historical-critical approach to its scriptures: recognizing the fact that the Bible was written by human beings in a particular social/historical context and evaluating them in that light.

As seeing them as divinely inspired but not the True and Unchanging Word of God as Dictated From Heaven.

Islam is a long way from reaching that stage, and if anything, they are moving away from it.

Funny, I’ve said that before, more than once, and been slammed for it. I guess I need to take lessons in tone from you./

188 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:17:17pm

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe it’s the killer they should be saying all this stuff to?

what does any of that have to do with the case against him?….zip
doesn’t matter to me if he’s Christian, Muslim or even an Eagles fan

189 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:17:29pm

re: #28 KingKenrod

This whole discussion about who is a “real” Christian is irrelevant. To Breivik Christianity was just another tribal rallying point. It doesn’t matter whether he practiced it “correctly” or misused it as a tool, and his actions don’t reveal anything generally about other Christians.

That’s true.

190 laZardo  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:19:25pm

Any human being is as capable of killing as anyone else.

Religion just gives them that extra bit of motivation to do so.

191 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:19:49pm

re: #183 albusteve

and to think, the Stones recorded the greatest disco song ever

And I hated it. (Which one?)

192 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:19:52pm

re: #184 NJDhockeyfan

Seems to be. I’m staying out of it. The shit is way too deep.

Those that are incapable of or unwilling to engage in critical thinking and or the sifting through the history of Christianity may see it as such.

193 Spocomptonite  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:20:04pm

“See if you can count the lies in those two short paragraphs.”

Challenge Accepted

Now, on Sunday, the “New York Times” headlined “As Horrors Emerged, Norway Charges Christian extremist”. A number of other news organizations like the “LA Times” and Reuters also played up the Christian angle. But Breivik is not a Christian [lie #1]. That’s impossible [lie#2]. No one believing in Jesus commits mass murder [lie #3]. The man might have called himself a Christian on the net [lie #4, we can assume Breivik called himself a Christian off the net, too], but he is certainly not of that faith [lie #5].

Also Breivik is not attached to any church [I’m assuming without any research lie#6], and in fact has criticized the Protestant belief system in general [lie #7? Even if true, it still doesn’t speak to whether he was Christian or not]. The Christian angle came from a Norwegian policeman [lie #8, more sources than that confirm it] not from any fact finding [lie#9, there’s lots of fact-finding]. Once again, we can find no evidence[lie #10], none [lie#11], that this killer practiced Christianity [lie #12] in any way [lie #13].

13 lies, misconceptions, hyperbole, and BS.

My faith goes in, terrorism comes out. You can’t explain that!

194 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:20:53pm

re: #193 Spocomptonite


My faith goes in, terrorism comes out. You can’t explain that!

ROTFL!

195 Olsonist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:20:57pm

re: #28 KingKenrod

This whole discussion about who is a “real” Christian is irrelevant. To Breivik Christianity was just another tribal rallying point. It doesn’t matter whether he practiced it “correctly” or misused it as a tool, and his actions don’t reveal anything generally about other Christians.

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s true.

No, it isn’t true. That’s just a wordy No True Scotsman.

196 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:20:58pm

re: #190 laZardo

Any human being is as capable of killing as anyone else.

Religion just gives them that extra bit of motivation justification to do so.

Not fixed, just a twist.

197 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:21:13pm

re: #187 Naso Tang

Funny, I’ve said that before, more than once, and been slammed for it. I guess I need to take lessons in tone from you./

I have been slammed by Christian fundamentalists who reject the historical-critical approach…

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:21:48pm

re: #58 Summer

Adolf Hitler believed in Jesus and defined “Mass Murder” for generations to come.

German soldiers wore “God with us” on their belt buckles, including those who dropped the gas canisters into the gas chambers, and those who ordered it.

I’m not sure where Bill O’Reilly is pulling his disinformation from, other than his big gas bloated fat ass, but you can be a Christian and a mass murderer.

I also submit that Anders Breivik is the same exact kind of Christian - identifying with Christianity, not being extremely religious, and yet taking the icons of the most defining militant orders of Christianity that the Crusades had ever produced (much like the Nazis did) to identify with.

He’s a Christian, Bill. That was his entire fucking point: a Christian protesting “the Muslim invasion of Christian Europe”, from his perspective.

Time to own up, Bill: He’s one of you.

It is entirely acceptable for a Christian to look at Breivik and say “That is not true Christianity.” This can be done without denying the ugly history of shit that people calling themselves Christians have done, often with the full support and encouragement of church and secular authorities. That is NOT true Christianity. Who says? We say!

But it has to also be acceptable for a Muslim to look at Al Qaeda and say ‘that is not true Islam’, and get the same respect accorded to them. That is where the right wing is falling down. They absolutely won’t accord that person such a right.

199 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:22:27pm

re: #64 marjoriemoon

Oh so many moons ago, I was so proud of myself when I made a mention here that Islam would eventually reform itself and get rid of its terrorist and violent elements just like the Christians did. I got my ass handed to me on a silver platter.

The lizards of yore informed me that the Christians never took part in the massacre of Jews 100s of years ago, or rather they weren’t “really Christians”. They twisted themselves into a bunch to try to explain away the Crusades, but don’t ask me how. It was too crazy to understand.

They really, really don’t like history.

200 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:22:33pm

re: #191 wrenchwench

And I hated it. (Which one?)

Miss You
cool song and I hate disco

201 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:22:57pm

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s true.

While true, again, one cannot deny the influence. The Taliban, for example, did not originate from the secular sector of Pakistani society. It instead was born in the Madrasas of Pakistan.

202 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:22:59pm

re: #191 wrenchwench

And I hated it. (Which one?)

203 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:23:05pm

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s a bingo!

204 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:23:55pm

re: #76 lostlakehiker

It’s a question of what words mean. If by “Muslim”, we mean someone who has repeated the shahada in front of enough witnesses, then clearly it is possible for a “true Muslim” to do all sorts of things that the texts held sacred by Muslims say not to do.

In the same way, if by “Christian”, we mean any person who calls himself Christian, then it is clearly possible that Breivik could fit that definition of “Christian”.

If, on the other hand, by “Christian” we mean someone who conforms his actions, more or less and making allowances for human weaknesses, to the core doctrines of Christianity, then Breivik is no Christian. There’s a line somewhere—-it is possible that a Christian, in this sense, would commit a murder, or steal, or commit adultery, etc. But when their whole life trajectory points in a direction contrary to core teachings, that’s not a weak moment or a falling into temptation. It’s not a departure from what the man wants to be and tries to be. Such a man is not a Christian—-he’s a wolf in Christian clothes.

By the same standard, what about those guys who blew up the mosque at Karbala? How could they possibly be “genuine Muslims”?

I think that a very good argument could be made that they were not.

205 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:24:45pm

re: #184 NJDhockeyfan

Seems to be. I’m staying out of it. The shit is way too deep.

And yet, you two are unable to point out where we are unfairly representing the history of the Church.

206 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:24:56pm

re: #195 Olsonist

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

No, it isn’t true. That’s just a wordy No True Scotsman.

it’s exactly true as far as I’m concerned

207 zora  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:25:21pm

re: #146 Winny Spencer

open season on bigoted, assholes. what ideology they blame the hate on is irrelevant as far as i’m concerned. i am a christian. the “love your neighbor” kind.

208 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:25:32pm

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

But it has to also be acceptable for a Muslim to look at Al Qaeda and say ‘that is not true Islam’, and get the same respect accorded to them. That is where the right wing is falling down. They absolutely won’t accord that person such a right.

Because to these people, any Muslim who seeks to simply use his religious beliefs as a basis for leading a better life and who tries to live peacefully with Muslims of other denominations and non-Muslims alike is not a true Muslim!

209 Spocomptonite  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:25:37pm

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

It is entirely acceptable for a Christian to look at Breivik and say “That is not true Christianity.” This can be done without denying the ugly history of shit that people calling themselves Christians have done, often with the full support and encouragement of church and secular authorities. That is NOT true Christianity. Who says? We say!

But it has to also be acceptable for a Muslim to look at Al Qaeda and say ‘that is not true Islam’, and get the same respect accorded to them. That is where the right wing is falling down. They absolutely won’t accord that person such a right.

I agree whole-heartedly. There is a right way to do the No True Christian argument, and a very very wrong way to do the No True Christian argument. Unfortunately, the most vocal (or at least publicized) asserters are the ones doing it the most wrong.

210 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:25:58pm

re: #200 albusteve

Eh, I still don’t like it.

211 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:26:02pm

re: #79 Locker

The wingers and baggers don’t have a problem calling middle eastern terrorists “Muslim” even though they go against the faith. Guess it’s only OK for “them”…

Bernard Lewis points out that suicide is flatly forbidden by normative Islam. The 9/11 hijackers were about as far from tradition as Breivik was in picking up a gun.

But a lot of folks don’t want to hear that there’s more to Islam than the three scary verses of the Koran they know by heart.

212 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:26:13pm

re: #207 zora

open season on bigoted, assholes. what ideology they blame the hate on is irrelevant as far as i’m concerned. i am a christian. the “love your neighbor” kind.

I’m an atheist, the love your neighbor kind

213 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:26:32pm

“But he was not a true atheist!!!1”
//

214 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:26:52pm

re: #202 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I am bemused and befuddled.

215 laZardo  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:27:14pm

re: #28 KingKenrod

This whole discussion about who is a “real” Christian is irrelevant. To Breivik Christianity was just another tribal rallying point. It doesn’t matter whether he practiced it “correctly” or misused it as a tool, and his actions don’t reveal anything generally about other Christians.

Isn’t that what religion in general tends to be?

216 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:27:39pm

Scary verses… Name religions that don’t have them.

217 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:27:55pm

re: #213 Sergey Romanov

“But he was not a true atheist!!!1”
//

In the old days someone would have brought up Stalin and atheism by now.

“Oh yeah! Well, the atheist Stalin murdered 20 million Russian all in the name of atheism and beats all Christians and Muslims!!11ty.”

Seriously.

218 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:28:52pm

re: #217 Gus 802

Oh, I know. BTW, Stalin outright despised “atheistic maculature” as he called Soviet atheist propaganda.

219 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:29:12pm

re: #213 Sergey Romanov

I noticed some of the usual pits of the interwebs bringing up “McVeigh was an atheist!!11ty” in relation to the Breivik story. I think it’s supposed to mean something. What, I do not know.

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:29:13pm

re: #115 ArchangelMichael

Ploome was a big fan of Baruch Goldstein IIRC (or someone of his ilk) so such statements are in no way surprising. They can never present Teh Enemy™ in a good light ever.

Which means totally screwing with history.

The Muslim world was a very mixed bag for Jews, historically. There were bad times, and there were some really good times.

221 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:29:18pm

re: #216 Sergey Romanov

Scary verses… Name religions that don’t have them.

Does Cthulu have verses? If not, then the religion of Cthulu has no verses.

I doubt Ba’al had any, either.

222 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:29:29pm

re: #210 wrenchwench

Eh, I still don’t like it.

I have to give the Stones credit for jumping into almost every sort of music…reggae, gospel, disco…those guys were fearless back then….of course they were filthy rich too, and cared less if a record bombed

223 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:29:58pm

re: #205 Varek Raith

I just got in. Why are we revisiting the worst chapters of Christian history?

224 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:30:07pm

re: #221 EmmmieG

no scary verses, I meant

225 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:31:04pm

re: #203 Sergey Romanov

That’s a bingo!

226 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:31:14pm

re: #217 Gus 802

In the old days someone would have brought up Stalin and atheism by now.

“Oh yeah! Well, the atheist Stalin murdered 20 million Russian all in the name of atheism and beats all Christians and Muslims!!11ty.”

Seriously.

Edited to more accurately reflect the truer tone of those in the old days.

227 zora  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:31:32pm

re: #223 Rightwingconspirator

historical perspective.

228 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:31:44pm

re: #180 Obdicut

In case it’s not clearly stated:

Most modern forms of Christianity are perfectly peaceable with the Jews. Catholicism especially has made enormous changes and even made a theological concession for Jews not converting.

Even those Christian religions that think that Jews, like everyone else, should really convert to be saved, really mean that in the best ways.

A few, some unfortunately large, strains of Protestantism still carry some of the anti-Semitic baggage of Luther. Mostly this works out as cant and myth rather than actual persecution of Jews.

However, this is a recent development. Very, very, very recent.

And an encouraging one.

229 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:31:50pm

re: #217 Gus 802

In the old days someone would have brought up Stalin and atheism by now.

“Oh yeah! Well, the atheist Stalin murdered 20 million Russian all in the name of atheism and beats all Christians and Muslims!!11ty.”

Seriously.

we need a points system to sort out the fakes and get them into their proper hole….this crossover/hybrid stuff is just too untidy

230 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:31:59pm

re: #169 ralphieboy

When you talk about any religion, you have to distinguish between four levels:
1) those who identify with the religion from a cultural/social standpoint, generally respect its major tenets but only loosely obey its rules or rituals (I think that a majority of Christians and a lot of Muslims in the west fall into this category)

2) Those who obey the rules and rituals of their religion (or try to) but do not try to impose them on others

3) Those who obey the tenets of their faith closely and approve of eforts to impose them on others through legislation

4) those who would use force to impose their religion on others or approve of doing so.

We need to be able to distinguish between these approaches to religion before we start applying guilt by association.

In my prior experience point 1 applies to a great many Muslims in the middle east as well, as does point 2.

The problem however arises, and not only with Muslims, when they might be tempted to be critical of 3 and 4. It is very difficult to do that when arguments are cloaked in theological terms, without ending up appearing to be “(name your religion) in name only”; or perhaps worse.

Closer to home we can see an perfect example of the same semi religious effect. When did you last hear a Republican of the old GOP variety stand up and be critical of the Tea Party loons?

231 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:32:19pm

re: #223 Rightwingconspirator

I just got in. Why are we revisiting the worst chapters of Christian history?

I brought up Martin Luther. It sort of evolved. Why not bring it up?

232 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:32:57pm

re: #219 Slumbering Behemoth

I noticed some of the usual pits of the interwebs bringing up “McVeigh was an atheist!!11ty” in relation to the Breivik story. I think it’s supposed to mean something. What, I do not know.

Here’s what I think about it.

Emphasizing Breivik’s Christianity does not hurt Christians (let’s get real). And it is a good reminder to everyone that not only Muslims can be terrorists.

On the other hand, I don’t think Breivik was motivated by Christianity (regardless of the version). It might have been a tertiary (or even less) cause, but the overwhelming causes were Islamophobia and nationalism. He could have been an atheist and most of his book would stay the same.

In this same way, neither McVeigh, nor Stalin weren’t motivated by atheism.

233 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:33:07pm

re: #221 EmmmieG

Does Cthulu have verses? If not, then the religion of Cthulu has no verses.

I doubt Ba’al had any, either.

Yes, Cthulhu had verses.

234 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:33:19pm

Republicans missed their own deadline this weekend, now they are going to fail in passing their own plan. I’m getting more worried that they may cause a default just from sheer incompetence.

235 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:33:36pm

re: #197 ralphieboy

I have been slammed by Christian fundamentalists who reject the historical-critical approach…

Well, I meant here. I don’t know of any fundamentalists, but there are very sensitive souls.

236 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:34:12pm

re: #221 EmmmieG

Does Cthulu have verses? If not, then the religion of Cthulu has no verses.

I doubt Ba’al had any, either.

“Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn!”

Scaaaary!

237 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:34:19pm

re: #218 Sergey Romanov

Oh, I know. BTW, Stalin outright despised “atheistic maculature” as he called Soviet atheist propaganda.


maculature
n.
Blotting paper. [Obs.]

I is smarter now.

238 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:34:41pm

re: #231 Gus 802

I brought up Martin Luther. It sort of evolved. Why not bring it up?

Once again, we gotta get medieval with our historical-critical approach and see Luther in the context of his times and his society. Remember Europe’s first attempt at people of different religions living together in peace in harmony?

It was known as the “Thirty Years’ War”…

239 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:34:48pm

re: #201 Gus 802

While true, again, one cannot deny the influence. The Taliban, for example, did not originate from the secular sector of Pakistani society. It instead was born in the Madrasas of Pakistan.

Sure, but I’m honestly not sure where this guy’s religious influences come in, or whether he thought of Christianity as anything except a tribal marker. He’s complex little bundle of hate, is Mr. Breivik.

240 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:35:00pm

re: #231 Gus 802

I brought up Martin Luther. It sort of evolved. Why not bring it up?


I was just unclear on the relevance. I might still be.

241 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:35:00pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

Republicans missed their own deadline this weekend, now they are going to fail in passing their own plan. I’m getting more worried that they may cause a default just from sheer incompetence.

Boehner the Piper will lead them out of the darkness
(the blind leading the blind)

242 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:35:01pm

re: #232 Sergey Romanov

Here’s what I think about it.

Emphasizing Breivik’s Christianity does not hurt Christians (let’s get real). And it is a good reminder to everyone that not only Muslims can be terrorists.

On the other hand, I don’t think Breivik was motivated by Christianity (regardless of the version). It might have been a tertiary (or even less) cause, but the overwhelming causes were Islamophobia and nationalism. He could have been an atheist and most of his book would stay the same.

In this same way, neither McVeigh, nor Stalin weren’t motivated by atheism.

Indeed. QFT.

243 Spocomptonite  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:35:03pm

re: #146 Winny Spencer

Wow, is it open season on Christians today?

No, it’s open season on people that can’t admit that Christianity has, and has had, extremists because in their world, true Christians are always good and true followers of other religions (or no religions) are always bad.

That kind of mindset just breeds more extremism from both within and without. It deserves to get a whalloping.

244 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:35:43pm

re: #236 Sergey Romanov

“Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn!”

Scaaary!

“In his house at R’lyeh dead Cthulhu waits dreaming.”

245 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:35:57pm

re: #235 Naso Tang

Well, I meant here. I don’t know of any fundamentalists, but there are very sensitive souls.

It was at a German anti-Jihad site, one that originally led me to LGF some years ago. it is now as good as defunct, taken over by a bunch of raving meatheads.

246 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:36:21pm

re: #242 Slumbering Behemoth

(Sorry for the incorrect double negative.)

247 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:36:38pm

re: #232 Sergey Romanov

Here’s what I think about it.

Emphasizing Breivik’s Christianity does not hurt Christians (let’s get real). And it is a good reminder to everyone that not only Muslims can be terrorists.

On the other hand, I don’t think Breivik was motivated by Christianity (regardless of the version). It might have been a tertiary (or even less) cause, but the overwhelming causes were Islamophobia and nationalism. He could have been an atheist and most of his book would stay the same.

In this same way, neither McVeigh, nor Stalin weren’t motivated by atheism.

Also to keep in mind is that Christianity (however strained) is a critical feature in Breivk’s manifesto. Or as Kragar mentioned earlier “[o]ther than modelling his whole “Knights Templar” fantasy on a Christian military order.”

248 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:36:49pm

re: #223 Rightwingconspirator

I just got in. Why are we revisiting the worst chapters of Christian history?

We’re proving that Bill O’Reilly is an idiot.

I realize that this may be the sort of thing that really requires no proof, but it’s an exercise for the student.

249 Spocomptonite  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:36:52pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

Republicans missed their own deadline this weekend, now they are going to fail in passing their own plan. I’m getting more worried that they may cause a default just from sheer incompetence.

With the current Republican party, failure by incompetence is not only always an option, but its part of their self-fulfilling prophecy about government.

250 William of Orange  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:36:52pm

II translated this from an article in Dutch newspaper Telegraaf.

Wilders reacts to this massacre.

After several days of silence, PVV party leader Geert Wilders said in a statement that has nothing but revulsion about this heinous crime. I feel sick that he has referencing to him and his party. According to Wilders the manifest he’s written shows here we’re dealing with a mad man.

“The PVV nor me are responsible for this lone twisted idiot that has misused the peace loving anti-Islam ideals in this violent way, even though other people see it that way. We are democrats from head to toe.”

“The Partij voor de Vrijheid has never and called to use violence and never will. We believe in the strength and wisdom of the voter. Not in bombs and guns. We fight in a democratic and peaceful Way against further Islamification of our society. Keeping society free and safe is out only goal.”

According to Wilders this is a slap in the face of the worldwide anti-Islam movement that this crime was committed by this psychopath.

251 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:37:22pm

re: #236 Sergey Romanov

“Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn!”

Scaaary!

Challenge declined.

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:37:30pm

re: #232 Sergey Romanov

Here’s what I think about it.

Emphasizing Breivik’s Christianity does not hurt Christians (let’s get real). And it is a good reminder to everyone that not only Muslims can be terrorists.

On the other hand, I don’t think Breivik was motivated by Christianity (regardless of the version). It might have been a tertiary (or even less) cause, but the overwhelming causes were Islamophobia and nationalism. He could have been an atheist and most of his book would stay the same.

In this same way, neither McVeigh, nor Stalin weren’t motivated by atheism.

Very much agreed.

253 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:37:54pm

re: #232 Sergey Romanov

In this same way, neither McVeigh, nor Stalin weren’t motivated by atheism.

“In English, two negatives make a positive. There is no language in which two positives make a negative”

[From the back of the room] “Yeah, right.”

/joke from my brother the translator

254 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:37:56pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

Republicans missed their own deadline this weekend, now they are going to fail in passing their own plan. I’m getting more worried that they may cause a default just from sheer incompetence.

They’re already going to cause a possible credit downgrade just for being obstructionist assholes.

David Shuster was tweeting earlier that Reid didn’t sign cloture for his bill, meaning it will come to a vote AFTER Boehner’s. That means that when the Boehner plan dies in the Senate, the only plan left to vote on will be Reid’s. It will be Harry Reid’s plan or a default, it seems.

255 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:38:01pm

re: #250 William of Orange

I almost feel sorry for them.

(Key word: almost.)

256 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:38:08pm

re: #238 ralphieboy

Once again, we gotta get medieval with our historical-critical approach and see Luther in the context of his times and his society. Remember Europe’s first attempt at people of different religions living together in peace in harmony?

It was known as the “Thirty Years’ War”…

What about the Albigensian Crusade?

257 BongCrodny  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:38:12pm

Just in the nick of time, Donald Trump puts on the crazy pants again:

HuffPo: Trump Sez Don’t Raise the Debt Ceiling

“Frankly the Republicans would be crazy unless they get 100 percent of the deal that they want right now to make any deal…If this happens, for instance if this stuff is going on prior to an election, he can’t get reelected. He possibly can’t get elected anyway… The fact is, unless the Republicans get 100% of what they want, and that may include getting rid of Obamacare, which is a total disaster, then they should not make a deal other than a minor extension which would take you before the election which would ensure Obama doesn’t get elected, which would be a great thing.”


If you type “how many bankruptcies” in the Google search bar, the very first suggestion finishes with “…has Donald Trump had”.

258 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:38:29pm

re: #241 albusteve

Boehner the Piper will lead them out of the darkness
(the blind leading the blind)


I don’t think he can.

259 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:38:58pm

re: #248 SanFranciscoZionist

We’re proving that Bill O’Reilly is an idiot.

I realize that this may be the sort of thing that really requires no proof, but it’s an exercise for the student.

every new crop of posters has to go over this entire old debate….deja vu all over again

260 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:39:12pm

re: #253 wrenchwench

“In English, two negatives make a positive. There is no language in which two positives make a negative”

[From the back of the room] “Yeah, right.”

/joke from my brother the translator

#246 ;)

261 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:39:28pm

re: #258 Killgore Trout

I don’t think he can.

McConnell from the Senate. Maybe. If he has any sense.

262 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:39:46pm

re: #253 wrenchwench

“In English, two negatives make a positive. There is no language in which two positives make a negative”

[From the back of the room] “Yeah, right.”

/joke from my brother the translator

BTW, we have that same joke in Russian - about Russian.

263 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:39:46pm

I hear the hawk outside again. It’s great to have him around a couple times a day. The Kestrels show up a lot these days too.

264 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:40:26pm

The Christians aren’t the only ones worried about being tarred with this freak. My husband started muttering as soon it came out he was a WoW player.

/

265 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:40:43pm

re: #250 William of Orange

lone twisted idiot

The required position for those who inspired Breivik.

266 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:41:12pm

re: #249 Spocomptonite

With the current Republican party, failure by incompetence is not only always an option, but its part of their self-fulfilling prophecy about government.

Very good. Prove that government is bad by governing badly. That is almost stupid enough to be clever.

267 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:42:12pm

re: #261 Gus 802

McConnell from the Senate. Maybe. If he has any sense.

Another new poll….
nationaljournal.com

On the subject of the deficit, 46 percent of respondents said they trust Obama most to “make the right decisions,” while 34 percent said they place more faith in congressional Republicans. Regarding the debt ceiling, a virtually identical 46 percent leaned toward Obama and 35 percent chose the GOP.


The republicans need to make an agreement just for their own self preservation but I’s having serious doubts they are capable of saving themselves.

268 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:42:18pm

re: #243 Spocomptonite

No, it’s open season on people that can’t admit that Christianity has, and has had, extremists because in their world, true Christians are always good and true followers of other religions (or no religions) are always bad.

That kind of mindset just breeds more extremism from both within and without. It deserves to get a whalloping.

It also breeds a dangerous gullibility in the otherwise harmless yet faithful. Every time a certain evangelical relative of mine has gotten the shaft, been taken for a ride, or ripped off, it’s been by a christian she thought she could trust on the sole basis that said person was a christian.

269 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:42:49pm

re: #246 Sergey Romanov

(Sorry for the incorrect double negative.)

Heh, I didn’t even notice it.

270 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:43:11pm
271 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:43:29pm

re: #266 Naso Tang

Very good. Prove that government is bad by governing badly. That is almost stupid enough to be clever.

“The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. Republicans are the party that says government doesn’t work, and then they get elected and prove it.” — P.J. O’Rourke

272 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:43:49pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

I hear the hawk outside again. It’s great to have him around a couple times a day. The Kestrels show up a lot these days too.

At least a dozen cottontail rabbits camp out on my lawn every afternoon and evening, red tail hawks and golden eagles circle the hills, owls at night and lately a roadrunner’s been darting out of the bush and snagging lizards off the rocks.

273 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:44:29pm

re: #248 SanFranciscoZionist

We’re proving that Bill O’Reilly is an idiot.

I realize that this may be the sort of thing that really requires no proof, but it’s an exercise for the student.

As in “the tide comes in, the tide goes out”?

He is only an idiot when it comes to religion but, from my perspective, I am never surprised at that.

274 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:46:32pm

re: #270 Sergey Romanov

Wow.

That one also did this one.

275 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:46:43pm

re: #267 Killgore Trout

The republicans need to make an agreement just for their own self preservation but I’s having serious doubts they are capable of saving themselves.

They’re already making demands that Obama shield seniors, soldiers, and bondholders from any ill effects of a default crisis:

GOP Demand Obama Protect Social Security, Cut Something Or Other

276 Martinsmithy  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:47:14pm

Based upon O’Reilly’s formulation, the last “true Christian” was Jesus Christ.

And since he was the son of God, he doesn’t really count anyway.

277 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:48:24pm

re: #271 Lidane

“The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. Republicans are the party that says government doesn’t work, and then they get elected and prove it.” — P.J. O’Rourke

LoL. You know what, since I have President Obama’s permission, even though I have already emailed my congressman, I going to send this one as well, and to the senator.

278 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:48:45pm

re: #274 wrenchwench

“no sympathy”
Just another right-wing creep.

279 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:49:27pm

re: #262 Sergey Romanov

BTW, we have that same joke in Russian - about Russian.

Where else can you contradict someone by saying “д а н е т” ?

280 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:52:17pm

re: #270 Sergey Romanov

Wow.

I wish I had had that example when we were discussing the meaning of multiculturalism, and its failures, last night.

Talk about a perfect example.

281 Gus  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:53:16pm

“The people of Israel are shocked and share the grief of the people of Norway on the despicable murder of innocent civilians and innocent youth. Our hearts are with the bereaved families who have lost that which is most dear to them. We pray for the speedy recovery of the wounded.”President Shimon Peres

Israel expresses its shock at the revolting terror attacks in Oslo, which have taken the lives of innocent victims. Nothing at all can justify such wanton violence, and we condemn this brutal action with the utmost gravity.

We stand in solidarity with the people and government of Norway in this hour of trial, and trust Norwegian authorities to bring to justice those responsible for this heinous crime.

Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families. We send our condolences to the bereaved families, and our wishes for prompt recovery to the injured. We remain at the Government of Norway’s disposal for any assistance it may require.Israel - Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Nothing can justify such wanton violence, and we condemn this brutal action with the utmost gravity.Israel - Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Link

282 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:54:28pm

re: #248 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh got it. Heh. That’s so easy…

283 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:55:48pm

A bit OT

“Wealth Gap Grows between Whites and Minorities”

moneynews.com

only one conclusion to be drawn here

Minorities have gotten even lazier since Obama took office!

284 ProBosniaLiberal  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:58:35pm

re: #281 Gus 802

Norway though will remain the way the have since the Lillehammer Affair.

Norway has an extremely long memory,

285 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:58:44pm

re: #280 Naso Tang

I wish I had had that example when we were discussing the meaning of multiculturalism, and its failures, last night.

Talk about a perfect example.

A perfect example of the complete chaos and confusion that arises when religion, church and state are inseparably intertwined and indistinguishable.

286 zora  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 12:59:26pm

re: #280 Naso Tang

perfect example of tripe. i feel like i need some translator microbes to comprehend that.

287 ProBosniaLiberal  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:02:57pm

I found an interesting article on Cracked.

6 Insane Holidays You’ll Wish You Celebrated

The first one mentioned has actually gotten a great deal safer since its start in the Ottoman Empire:

Today’s version of Rouketopolemos is much tamer than it was back before the Ottoman era, when it was celebrated with motherfucking real-ass cannons.

O_O

288 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:03:36pm
289 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:04:03pm

re: #287 ProLifeLiberal

I celebrate “Not A Father’s Day” every day.

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:04:08pm

Just a quick general statement here, from someone who is neither Christian nor Muslim:

Someone brought up Baruch Goldstein, and I think he provides me with an excellent example of what we’re talking at and around. Goldstein was a Jew, and more significantly, acted on what he believed about Judaism, as well as politics.

I think he was wrong. I think he was wrong in the eyes of God, and according to the tradition.

I can’t say that he made this up all by himself, and was just crazy, though. What he believed, he had been taught. He’d been taught by a bunch of fringe radicals, but they had access to the tradition, and they felt qualified to interpret it.

I can’t say he wasn’t a Jew. I can’t say that what he did didn’t come out of the darker corners of the religion we share.

I won’t say that the darker corners represent the ‘real truth’ about Judaism. I wouldn’t say that even if they represented a much larger and more accepted section than they do now.

I do believe that you have to be able to name and understand in order to fight.

My criticism of Bill O’Reilly is based on what he doing instead of saying something like this. He’s deflecting. He’s blaming others. He’s not defending Christianity from Breivik, he’s defending it from the liberals under the bed. And my annoyance is pumped up by the fact that I’ve seen how he and his ilk attack Muslims, and deny them this same right to define their faith.

That’s all. I don’t dislike Christians or Christianity. I really dislike people who are more offended that some Norwegian cop called a killer a Christian than with the killer for representing himself as a Christian.

291 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:04:55pm

re: #270 Sergey Romanov

Wow.

Whatever.

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:06:29pm

re: #288 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Less Than Half of Americans Know Romney Is a Mormon

Unfortunately, they are probably also the ones who don’t care.

293 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:06:42pm

re: #288 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Less Than Half of Americans Know Romney Is a Mormon

… despite the efforts of Mike Huckabee.

294 ProBosniaLiberal  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:07:34pm

re: #289 Slumbering Behemoth

I actually wonder if it was the Ottoman Empire that caused the change from life-terminating and mass-damage-inducing cannons to the minor-injury and minor-damage-inducing rockets.

295 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:08:09pm

re: #294 ProLifeLiberal

I actually wonder if it was the Ottoman Empire that caused the change from life-terminating and mass-damage-inducing cannons to the minor-injury and minor-damage-inducing rockets.

The Ottomans could be practical like that.

296 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:08:17pm

re: #293 Slumbering Behemoth

… despite the efforts of Mike Huckabee.

“How can we scare people about him being different if they don’t realize it?”

297 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:09:00pm

re: #288 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Less Than Half of Americans Know Romney Is a Mormon

And what percentage think that they are Western Baptists?

298 zora  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:10:31pm

re: #293 Slumbering Behemoth

and fox and friends.

Mitt Romney is “not a Christian” and therefore he may not have a good chance of raising big money among Christians if Rick Perry runs for president, “Fox & Friends” co-host Ainsley Earhardt said Sunday.

ldsliving.com

299 TheSwedish  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:10:41pm

There’s still radio silence at Roger L. Simon’s personal site. I trust he’ll go the week without commenting. Charles & Co., what do you think?

300 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:10:47pm

Conservative Christian reaction to Norway killings

Two threads seem to be emerging from conservative Christians writing about the Norway killings: Anders Behring Breivi wasn’t really a Christian, and he has a point about the danger of Muslim immigration.

Those two points are being made everywhere from The New York Times’ OpEd page to the American Family Association (AFA).

As usual at The Washington Post, we’re interested foremost in the political implications, and in what seems to be a pattern, GOP presidential players are speaking sparingly about Islam. That was true for the Muslim center near Ground Zero, Congressman Peter King’s hearings on Muslim radicalization, the relationship between mosque and state in post-revolution North Africa, and now, on the musings of Norwegian mass-murderer Anders Breivik.

301 windsagio  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:12:08pm

re: #290 SanFranciscoZionist

It’s like the ongoing theme, the enemy is radical extremism, not any particular religion (or non-religious ideology for that matter)

302 ProBosniaLiberal  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:12:19pm

re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist

They might not have liked having to rebuild the island every 12 months. That turns costly in a hurry.

I wonder though, how does a tradition like that get started?

303 windsagio  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:13:07pm

re: #300 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Sad thing is a vast majority of conservative Christians aren’t really on bored with that, they just are dragged along with “OMG GAYS AND ABORTION!” and don’t really pay attention to the rest.

304 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:13:14pm

re: #290 SanFranciscoZionist

He’s not defending Christianity from Breivik, he’s defending it from the liberals under the bed.

Just as Breivik wasn’t defending Norway from the Muslims, he was saving it from the liberals on the island.

305 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:13:57pm

the skirmishes we are now witnessing are going to blow up into full on godwars….via the net and TV people are going to feel compelled to take sides and further drive folks apart…think how radical the political/social scene has become in the last two years alone…we are hosed

306 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:14:35pm

re: #287 ProLifeLiberal

I found an interesting article on Cracked.

6 Insane Holidays You’ll Wish You Celebrated

The first one mentioned has actually gotten a great deal safer since its start in the Ottoman Empire:


O_O

I find Purim intriguing. Celebrating someone who tried to experminate the Jews and wound up an epic fail? I can well imagine that some day in the distant future, Jews will get drunk while donning little fake moustaches and singing “Heil! Pffft! In der Führer’s Face!” and “Springtime for Hitler”.

307 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:16:23pm

re: #301 windsagio

It’s like the ongoing theme, the enemy is radical extremism, not any particular religion (or non-religious ideology for that matter)


Which is the true “Clash of Cultures”

308 windsagio  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:16:33pm

re: #305 albusteve

this really hasn’t changed, its been the same high level of craziness since 9/11 if not before… in fact it really has been calming down in the mainstream. Eventually a crazy like that will always emerge.

309 Kragar (Antichrist )  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:20:00pm
310 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:32:04pm

re: #141 Gus 802

This?

More here: Ger 312 Jews 14th - 17th Centuries

Sorry I had to duck out this afternoon.

Thanks Gus! Could be. Of course, Arago[r]n would protect the Jews. Natch.

311 allegro  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:55:53pm

re: #309 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

White Nationalist: Norway Massacre not without a silver lining

Yeah, its as bad as you think

‘In any case, he is certainly right in characterizing multiculturalism as an ideology of hate.’

I keep reading this sentence and keep failing to make a lick of sense out of it. It would seem to me that multiculturalism is, by definition, an ideology of tolerance and acceptance - the opposite of hate. The ideology of hate would be practiced by those who are bigots and nationalists, the ones who have violent objections to multiculturalism.

Oh wait, I get it! Just like those “liberals have hard, black hearts” and stuff… up is down, black is white… projection on crack.

312 Mickey Blumental  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:48:24pm

Isn’t this the same excuse used by Muslims? “The terrorist couldn’t be a real Muslim because no true believer of Islam will ever do something like this blah blah blah”.

Radical Jews, Muslims and Christians hate each other with so much passion when in fact they are mirror images of each other. Though I do like it when they bridge their differences and band together for common goals like hating gays.

313 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 3:10:56pm

From wiki comes this tidbit:

legis.wisconsin.gov

101.578 Protection of medical waste incinerator
employees
[…]
101.58 Employees’ right to know. (1) SHORT TITLE. Sections
101.58 to 101.599 shall be known as the “Employees’ Right
to Know Law”.
[…]
2. “Toxic substance” does not include:
a. Any article, including but not limited to an item of equipment
or hardware, which contains a substance regulated by the
federal occupational safety and health administration under title
29 of the code of federal regulations part 1910, subpart z, if the
substance is present in a solid form which does not cause any acute
or chronic health hazard as a result of being handled by an
employee.
b. Any mixture containing a substance regulated under title
29 of the code of federal regulations part 1910, subpart z, if the
substance is less than one percent, or, if the substance is an impurity,
less than 2%, of the product.
c. Any consumer product packaged for distribution to and
used by the general public, for which the employee’s exposure
during use is not significantly greater than the consumer’s exposure
occurring during the principal use of the product.
d. Any substance received by an employer in a sealed package
and subsequently sold or transferred in that package, if the seal
remains intact while the substance is in the employer’s workplace.
e. Any waste material regulated under the federal resource
conservation and recovery act, P.L. 94−580.
f. Lutefisk.

314 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 3:34:05pm

re: #147 Obdicut

So you will claim that Manstein’s Army engaged in the mass murder of Jews, at his orders?

You might take a look at Wikipedia’s account of Manstein’s war crimes trial and what he was, and wasn’t, convicted of.

Manstein issued an order that sucked up to the Nazi Party Line that the Jews were behind the partisan movement. But the practical effect of that order was that partisans, in general, were treated without mercy. Since partisan warfare almost always goes that way, since partisans are combatants, and since Soviet partisans weren’t in fact mostly composed of Jews, that doesn’t really count as mass murder of civilian Jews.

Manstein was also found guilty of scorched earth tactics that imposed hardships on civilians. There is precedent for such measures in the operations of the Union armies in our own civil war, though arguably there is a difference when the measures are used in support of a just cause instead of a wicked cause.

Would it cut any ice with you that Churchill spoke up for Manstein, arguing that he’d been over-charged? That Adenauer gave him an important post-war position?

Do you hold that the whole Nuremburg trial process was a whitewash? Because otherwise, the fact that Manstein was acquitted on almost every charge ought to count for something.

Your list of Wehrmacht units involved in war crimes cannot be equated to a list of Wehrmacht units engaged in the specific war crime/crime against humanity that we’re talking about. It’s also a list of regiments and smaller units, and is relatively short in comparison to the number of such fragments of the vast war machine the Germans fielded.

The Wehrmacht was different from the SS. Germans who took their Christianity even halfway seriously didn’t rush to sign up with the SS. Conscripts may have gone along; a great many Christians aren’t firm enough in their faith to sign on for martyrdom. But it’s a canard that the SS were just typical Christians.

315 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 3:38:06pm

re: #157 Spocomptonite

Given different standards (i.e, my own), nearly everyone who is saying he couldn’t be Christian because Christian aren’t extremists, are themselves also not Christian because they too are extremists. They also use the same, yet opposite, string of thought to reach the conclusion that only true Muslims are violent.

The No True Scotsman fallacy has become the No True Christian fallacy.

My own post specifically mentioned that there were nominal Muslims who couldn’t possibly be counted as “true Muslims” because their deeds belie any real allegiance to Islam.

316 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 3:54:34pm

re: #314 lostlakehiker

Just for general info, here’s my friend Roberto’s posting debunking some of Paget’s claims during the trial:

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

Some of Paget’s tactics today would be called a Holocaust denial.

317 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 4:05:29pm

re: #314 lostlakehiker

I have no idea why you decided to totally focus on Mainstein. A mistake.

Anyway, I’d like to point out the lunacy of this:

Regular Wehrmacht participated to the extent that they moved the front line forward and provided a shield behind which the extermination could proceed. A small fraction of them may have gone further. But history records that as a general rule, Wehrmacht regulars declined to be drawn into the extermination business.

Obviously, even if all they did was ‘move the front line’ and ‘provide a shield’, they were drawn into the extermination business. Unless you’re claiming ignorance on their part of the mass shootings of Jews.

318 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 5:01:23pm

re: #136 lostlakehiker

Regular Wehrmacht participated to the extent that they moved the front line forward and provided a shield behind which the extermination could proceed. A small fraction of them may have gone further. But history records that as a general rule, Wehrmacht regulars declined to be drawn into the extermination business. Officers don’t get to make policy, but an officer can argue that soldiers can lose their edge when put into fights against people who can’t shoot back, etc. That there is, after all, a war at the front, and that the shoemaker should stick to his last.

I think you have fallen victim to the myth of the “Clean Wehrmacht” (Saubere Wehrmacht). Starting points: en.wikipedia.org journals.cambridge.org usir.salford.ac.uk


But the original post that triggered this exchange made an error of fact in asserting that SS wore Gott Mit Uns belt buckles. They did not.

This much is true.

319 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 5:03:07pm

Uh. Let me try that again:

re: #136 lostlakehiker

Regular Wehrmacht participated to the extent that they moved the front line forward and provided a shield behind which the extermination could proceed. A small fraction of them may have gone further. But history records that as a general rule, Wehrmacht regulars declined to be drawn into the extermination business. Officers don’t get to make policy, but an officer can argue that soldiers can lose their edge when put into fights against people who can’t shoot back, etc. That there is, after all, a war at the front, and that the shoemaker should stick to his last.

I think you have fallen for the “Clean Wehrmacht” (Saubere Wehrmacht) myth. Starting points for clearing up your confusions: en.wikipedia.org usir.salford.ac.uk journals.cambridge.org

320 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 5:24:46pm

re: #314 lostlakehiker

Manstein issued an order that sucked up to the Nazi Party Line that the Jews were behind the partisan movement. But the practical effect of that order was that partisans, in general, were treated without mercy. Since partisan warfare almost always goes that way, since partisans are combatants, and since Soviet partisans weren’t in fact mostly composed of Jews, that doesn’t really count as mass murder of civilian Jews.

You claim to have read many books on the subject? Then you must know about the mass slaughtering of civilian Jews in the Soviet Union by regular German forces who incorrectly referenced them as partisans or abetting partisans in the reports to the HQs. The whole of “combatting partisans” was just another element of the Nazi War of Annihilation.

Manstein was also found guilty of scorched earth tactics that imposed hardships on civilians. There is precedent for such measures in the operations of the Union armies in our own civil war, though arguably there is a difference when the measures are used in support of a just cause instead of a wicked cause.

Would it cut any ice with you that Churchill spoke up for Manstein, arguing that he’d been over-charged? That Adenauer gave him an important post-war position?

Do you hold that the whole Nuremburg trial process was a whitewash? Because otherwise, the fact that Manstein was acquitted on almost every charge ought to count for something.

Your list of Wehrmacht units involved in war crimes cannot be equated to a list of Wehrmacht units engaged in the specific war crime/crime against humanity that we’re talking about. It’s also a list of regiments and smaller units, and is relatively short in comparison to the number of such fragments of the vast war machine the Germans fielded.

The Wehrmacht was different from the SS. Germans who took their Christianity even halfway seriously didn’t rush to sign up with the SS. Conscripts may have gone along; a great many Christians aren’t firm enough in their faith to sign on for martyrdom. But it’s a canard that the SS were just typical Christians.

321 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 5:28:17pm

re: #320 000G

PIMF

322 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 6:21:00pm

re: #317 Obdicut

I have no idea why you decided to totally focus on Mainstein. A mistake.

Anyway, I’d like to point out the lunacy of this:

Obviously, even if all they did was ‘move the front line’ and ‘provide a shield’, they were drawn into the extermination business. Unless you’re claiming ignorance on their part of the mass shootings of Jews.

My father was in the occupation. If there was ignorance before, we cleared it up by marching the residents of Munich through Dachau at bayonet point. It’s not clear to me that everyone already knew the whole story—-if they had, what would have been the point of the above exercise? Clearly the Germans knew that nasty stuff was afoot. But just as clearly, the German high command made some effort to conceal the details, and at least hoped to conceal the scale and enormity of what they were up to from the German public. Perhaps this effort met with some success.

Our own press, and our own high command, didn’t want to talk about it, didn’t want to know about it, and wasn’t fully aware of it, until our armies overran the camps.

I don’t dispute that Reichenau was a rabid Nazi. When you have a point, I don’t dispute it just to be disputatious. When you’re out on a limb, I counter.

As to participation by moving the front line, I draw a distinction between active participation in the mass murder itself, and aiding and abetting. All the German civilians back home who worked, even as farmers, were to some extent aiding and abetting. The guilt can be spread around to almost everyone, in some degree. But to my mind, the guys who pulled the triggers bear more responsibility than the ones who mined the lead from which the bullets were cast.

323 EiMitch  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 11:42:25pm

Wow. I stay off the web for a day, and…

Here is why the argument is stupid:

It doesn’t matter if someone is jewish, christian, muslim, buddhist, hindu, sheik, atheist, or whatever. One’s views on religion does not determine whether one is a good person. Contrary to popular opinion, being moral isn’t determined by faith, one way or another.

Good people can point to what they believe as their reason for being good. Meanwhile, troubled minds can clutch those same spoken/written concepts as justification (or even direction) for their madness. In both cases, as far being moral is concerned, one’s views on theism are ultimately a red herring.

So, what does make one moral? Who knows. Maybe it is as simple as brain chemistry, or being raised in a good environment. These things, and others, have stronger correlation with decent behavior than religion.

Then again, it could all be coincidence, and there’s something else we’re missing. What is simple, that I do know for damn certain, is that religious beliefs aren’t it.

324 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 1:31:43am

re: #322 lostlakehiker

Please read the information that you’ve been provided and educate yourself on the subject. This is not one where anecdotal evidence is sufficient, and I have no idea why you think it would be.

325 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 6:01:20am

re: #322 lostlakehiker

Also, you’re making the traditional naive mistake of equating the mass killings of Jews with the camps. Only about half the Jews murdered by the Nazis died in the camps, the rest died in other mass killings, mostly done by the specially formed units that did so, and sometimes by the Wehrmacht.

It would have been impossible for ordinary soldiers not to have known about those killings, especially since they were often policy on the Eastern Front.

326 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:20:57pm

O’Reilly’s assertion:

Also Breivik is not attached to any church, and in fact has criticized the Protestant belief system in general. The Christian angle came from a Norwegian policeman not from any fact finding. Once again, we can find no evidence, none, that this killer practiced Christianity in any way.

Actual full quote from Breivik’s manifesto:

Q: Are you a religious man, and should science take priority over the teachings of the Bible?

A: My parents, being rather secular wanted to give me the choice in regards to religion. At the age of 15 I chose to be baptised and confirmed in the Norwegian State Church. I consider myself to be 100% Christian. However, I strongly object to the current suicidal path of the Catholic Church but especially the Protestant Church. I support a Church that
believes in self defence and who are willing to fight for its principles and values, at least resist the efforts put forth to exterminate it gradually. The Catholic and Protestant Church are both cheering their own annihilation considering the fact that they embrace the ongoing inter-faith dialogue and the appeasement of Islam. The current Church elite has shown its suicidal face, as vividly demonstrated last year by the archbishop of
Canterbury’s speech contemplating the legitimacy of Shariah in parts of Britain.

I trust that the future leadership of a European cultural conservative hegemony in Europe will ensure that the current Church leadership are replaced and the systems somewhat reformed. We must have a Church leadership who supports a future Crusade with the intention of liberating the Balkans, Anatolia and creating three Christian states in the Middle East. Efforts should be made to facilitate the de-construction of the Protestant Church whose members should convert back to Catholicism. The Protestant Church had an important role once but its original goals have been accomplished and have contributed to reform the Catholic Church as well. Europe should have a united Church
lead by a just and non-suicidal Pope who is willing to fight for the security of his subjects, especially in regards to Islamic atrocities.

I fully support that the Church gains more or less monopoly on religion in Europe (government policies, school curriculum etc at least) in addition to granting the Church several concessions which have been taken from them the last decades.

As for the Church and science, it is essential that science takes an undisputed precedence over biblical teachings. Europe has always been the cradle of science and it must always continue to be that way.
Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I’m not an excessively religious man. I am first and foremost a man of logic. However, I am a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe.

327 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:31:46pm

Another one, speaking volumes of the hubris of the sicko. Narcissistic personality disorder indeed:

Saturday June 11 - Day 41: […] I prayed for the first time in a very long time today. I explained to God that unless he wanted the Marxist-Islamic alliance and the certain Islamic takeover of Europe to completely annihilate European Christendom within the next hundred years he must ensure that the warriors fighting for the preservation of European Christendom prevail. He must ensure that I succeed with my mission and as such; contribute to inspire thousands of other revolutionary conservatives/nationalists; anti-Communists and anti-Islamists throughout the European world.

328 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:34:19pm

More insights into the sicko’s views concerning Christianity, prayer, and atheists brought to you by PZ Myers: scienceblogs.com

329 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:46:28pm

Too much quoting the sicko. Here is a survivor’s account:

scienceblogs.com


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