Debt Ceiling Madness Goes to the Wire

The Republican Party holds the country hostage
Wingnuts • Views: 45,028

Watching the soul-destroying debate about the debt ceiling is depressing and infuriating. The Republican Party is deeply in thrall to the farthest right Tea Party elements, and they’re demanding ideological purity right up to the brink of disaster: Boehner says his plan’s deficit committee will not raise taxes.

House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) on Tuesday rejected criticism that his newly revealed two-step deficit plan would allow for the creation of a committee likely to raise taxes.

“It’s going to be pretty hard for the committee to [raise taxes],” Boehner said, promising that if the panel brought a solution that included raising taxes to the House, the Republican majority would vote it down.

Boehner’s plan would allow for a short-term $1 trillion immediate raise in the debt ceiling and the formation of a committee, composed of 12 members appointed by the leadership of both chambers of Congress, that would recommend spending cuts to Congress.

“Some people” are concerned that raising taxes would result from forming the committee, Boehner said on conservative Rush Limbaugh’s radio show.

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120 comments
1 laZardo  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:15:35pm

If we had the Gold Standard, this would never have happened.

/they'll probably start using that argument after the default.

2 windsagio  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:17:24pm
Watching the soul-destroying debate about the debt ceiling is depressing and infuriating.

That's about it, its painful to make yourself think about it.

3 Four More Tears  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:18:27pm

re: #2 windsagio

That's about it, its painful to make yourself think about it.

There there. It'll all be over soon. And if the Republicans have their way maybe we can do it again real soon...

4 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:19:25pm

Yunno, if you subscribe to the theory that our economy is eventually going to collapse under growing debt sooner or later, it starts to make sense to just let it collapse now and hit bottom so we can set about fixing it.

5 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:20:03pm

Boehner - Rush Limbaugh.

If there was any single act that is guaranteed to turn off any remaining swing independent voters from Republicans, I have to think it is kissing Rush Limbaugh's ass.

6 windsagio  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:20:53pm

what pisses me off is that the Democrats have folded to the point of even dropping taxes out and it's still not enough.

7 Four More Tears  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:21:22pm

re: #6 windsagio

what pisses me off is that the Democrats have folded to the point of even dropping taxes out and it's still not enough.

They can't say yes to anything.

8 mr.fusion  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:21:37pm
Watching the soul-destroying debate about the debt ceiling is depressing and infuriating

Hear, hear

Completely a human induced crisis we're experiencing right now and it's truly mind-bottling. Considering the current economic state anyway, why is the way the House Republicans (namely the Tea Party caucus) acceptable to the country?

9 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:21:58pm

re: #4 ralphieboy

Crappy theory based on false assumptions. Try this analogy for sooner or later.... Person X will be hanged. Should he figure sooner is better than later? LOL.

10 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:22:06pm

re: #4 ralphieboy

Yunno, if you subscribe to the theory that our economy is eventually going to collapse under growing debt sooner or later, it starts to make sense to just let it collapse now and hit bottom so we can set about fixing it.

Yunno, you play loose and fancy with this "you" and "we" stuff.

11 Kragar  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:22:14pm
12 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:22:47pm

re: #6 windsagio

what pisses me off is that the Democrats have folded to the point of even dropping taxes out and it's still not enough.

It's not enough until the United States is in an economic shitstorm that gets Obama impeached or tossed out of office in 2012.

The GOP are completely barking. They're willing to destroy this country to win an election next year. WTF.

13 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:23:28pm

re: #10 Naso Tang

Yunno, you play loose and fancy with this "you" and "we" stuff.

LOL!
true enough

14 Lidane  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:23:45pm

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Michele Bachmann Opposes Boehner Debt Plan

Of course she does. She's running as the poster girl for the Tea Party assholes.

15 mr.fusion  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:23:50pm

re: #7 JasonA

They can't say yes to anything.

When you spend 3 straight years calling the President a socialist, Marxist, Kenyan, and even some calling him more dangerous than Al Qada, it makes it absolutely impossible to be seen as agreeing to anything he agrees to. How can they be seen by their constituents endorsing the same policies as a Marxist?

16 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:24:18pm

re: #10 Naso Tang

Yunno, you play loose and fancy with this "you" and "we" stuff.

I am speaking entirely theoretically, just trying to get a grip on the line of thinking (cannot really call it "logic") behind those who want to precipitate a collapse.

17 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:25:30pm

re: #12 Lidane

It's not enough until the United States is in an economic shitstorm that gets Obama impeached or tossed out of office in 2012.

The GOP are completely barking. They're willing to destroy this country to win an election next year. WTF.

how can BO be impeached?
how can the GOP destroy the country?

18 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:25:48pm

re: #16 ralphieboy

The other problem being that those who want to bring it about are the least likely to be able to do anything to fix it

19 mr.fusion  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:26:01pm

re: #4 ralphieboy

Yunno, if you subscribe to the theory that our economy is eventually going to collapse under growing debt sooner or later, it starts to make sense to just let it collapse now and hit bottom so we can set about fixing it.

Or.......you could cut the deficit by $4 trillion with a 4-1 mix of cuts and revenue increases...........

20 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:27:07pm

One thing I find interesting about Boner's plan for a gang of 12 Super Congress within a Congress idea (Reid's plan includes something similar) is the apparent recognition that the Senate filibuster, as it is currently practiced, is fecking everything up. Both Reid and Boner would prohibit the filibuster's use in considering the Gang of 12's plan.

Maybe there's some potential here for a broader discussion about how the Senate filibuster, again as it's been recently used on just about everything, is making responsible governing impossible.

21 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:28:18pm

re: #19 mr.fusion

Or...you could cut the deficit by $4 trillion with a 4-1 mix of cuts and revenue increases...

the last two words cannot be uttered by the GOP unless they follow the words "we oppose all..."

22 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:30:06pm

re: #17 albusteve

how can BO be impeached?how can the GOP destroy the country?

Pete King is already thinking about it. and really if the republicans continue down the path they are heading down with the debt ceiling they could screw the country over even more.

23 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:30:28pm
Watching the soul-destroying debate about the debt ceiling is depressing and infuriating.

Soul-destroying is a good way of puting it. That's about how I feel right now.

24 makeitstop  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:30:52pm

Boehner is gutted. He couldn't pass wind in the House right now.

The Teahadis have fully, completely bought into their own hype at this point. Jesus Reagan himself could return today and tell them they're worng, and they'd turn away and continue worshiping at the altar of Grover Norquist.

They're behaving every bit like a common cult now, tuning out all voices of reason in favor of the supply-side voices in their empty heads.

25 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:32:07pm

what we need to do is get more people back to work, increase the revenue flow, and tackle the debt problem from a more positive, manageable position....chronic unemployment is by far the bigger problem, but takes the back seat to the fake drama unfolding over the debt....sometime I think the whole thing is trumped up for TV, hence re-electon

26 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:32:09pm

re: #10 Naso Tang

Yunno, you play loose and fancy with this "you" and "we" stuff.

We all do.
:P

27 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:33:56pm

re: #16 ralphieboy

I am speaking entirely theoretically, just trying to get a grip on the line of thinking (cannot really call it "logic") behind those who want to precipitate a collapse.

Duh. I know that.

28 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:34:15pm
chronic unemployment is by far the bigger problem

If we would only pass a BBA, and about $8 trillion in cuts, businesses would feel certain again, employers would start hiring and the economy would grow. //

29 Cheechako  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:34:16pm

re: #3 JasonA

There there. It'll all be over soon. And if the Republicans have their way maybe we can do it again real soon...

Naw, it's not going to be "over" very soon. This is just one battle of many to come. Think about the upcoming battle over the FY 2012 budget. And the FY 2013 budget battle during next year's election season.

Buy popcorn futures!

30 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:34:28pm

re: #26 Slumbering Behemoth

We all do.
:P

and another one..

31 simoom  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:34:54pm

Yeah, the super-congress committee almost grantees some pretty draconian entitlement cut proposals, in that most of the identified discretionary spending cuts will be consumed in the first $1T leaving little else to go to for the second, larger, swipe at the pie. You also have the issue that the second debt ceiling increase is tied to passing whatever the super-congress comes up with, so the blackmail continues, and even still, I'd predict you'd end up deadlocked and back right where we started.

Also there's the issue that Boehner's plan may nut cut it with the ratings agencies:

32 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:35:34pm

That aggravating thing about this is, didn't we just go through this a few months ago with the budget debate and the threatened govt shutdown? I guess we can look forward to this sort of thing every couple of months now.

33 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:36:12pm

re: #31 simoom


Also there's the issue that Boehner's plan may nut cut it with the ratings agencies:

I think it may be a typo, but nut cut is perfect.

34 PuppyCat  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:39:36pm

The GOP is shitting in their own mess kit and Obama hasn't exactly impressed me through this ordeal either. This is a SELF-MADE CRISIS. All they have to do is raise the *fucking debt ceiling*, pay the bills we have now and then figure out how to deal with it going forward. But the GOP will drive this thing over the cliff, because they firmly believe their little insane, far-right, chickenshit, cutthroat pirate base who all seem to reside in Tea Bags Over Hell with heads firmly lodged in asses will keep the current GOP leadership in place come 2012, and maybe get the presidency. I tell you what- after this mess, it'll be one cold day in hell before that happens.

35 Kragar  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:40:06pm

SPLC defends Charles, shines a light on Harpy

Geller on Sunday was still scrambling to deflect blame and to isolate Breivik as a lone madman unconnected to her cause. Breivik had made only “one passing reference” to her, she insisted (Geller ignored Breivik’s 12 references to her blog, however), and a mere 55 mentions of her SIOA co-founder Robert Spencer, which Geller described as “mostly quotes from Muslim scriptures.” (The New York Times counted 64 mentions of Spencer; Geller also disregarded Breivik’s “nomination” of Spencer for the Nobel Peace Prize.) But in an almost surreal bit of legerdemain, Geller suggested that blame could lay with Charles Johnson, proprietor of the website Little Green Footballs, who, after initially being part of the anti-Muslim chorus, became appalled at the level of hatred and bigotry the movement represented and by 2009 had turned against it. Breivik, Geller wrote, “includes a long diatribe against Charles Johnson, whom he clearly admired until he felt betrayed enough to snap. The killer speaks about Charles Johnson obsessively and wrings his hands about Johnson’s turn to the left. Could this perhaps have been the provocation? Could this have been what caused him to snap?”

Thoughtful readers would likely wonder if they’d misread the logic there: Breivik was motivated to murder innocent children because Johnson rejected bigotry? But Geller made clear she was deadly serious: “Anders Behring Breivik is responsible for his actions. If anyone incited him to violence, it was Islamic supremacists.” There it is: In Geller’s view, either Breivik was a crazed lone wolf, or Muslims drove him to kill some 76 fellow white people. In Geller’s warped world, the only parties truly free of any responsibility for inspiring Breivik’s rampage are those who happened to believe exactly what he believed. Go figure.

36 Political Atheist  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:40:09pm

It's more and more obvious. The Tea Party side of the GOP would rather trigger a needless depression than a black man re elected to the Presidency.

37 Four More Tears  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:40:12pm

So great that a little over half of one half of one branch of government can fuck everything up like this.

38 simoom  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:40:24pm

This was pretty amusing, and it includes the shocker of Larry Kudlow actually asking Cantor a tough question:

Cantor: But - but - but ...
39 jc717  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:40:58pm

There will be no default. This will pass. They're seeing how far they can push Obama. And, given his history of giving up more than expected before negotiations even begin, they see little downside.
Has Obama ever taken negotiation 101? The guy's opening offers are absurdly generous. Of course the other side will want more.

Yes, the GOP is playing politics, but Obama is enabling them every step of the way.

40 Alexzander  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:41:10pm

This has a long history.

Remember when Limbaugh said he wanted America to fail after Obama was elected?

41 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:41:22pm

It will not happen, but I wish...

Nancy would bring a plan that all the house Dems and 25 Republicans would support. Use one of the backdoor rules so Boehner can say his hands are tied and he has to present it.

Again, won't happen. It'd kill 26 Republican careers, and they want re-elected more than they want to prevent default. But I can wish.

42 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:41:24pm

re: #25 albusteve

what we need to do is get more people back to work, increase the revenue flow, and tackle the debt problem from a more positive, manageable position...chronic unemployment is by far the bigger problem, but takes the back seat to the fake drama unfolding over the debt...sometime I think the whole thing is trumped up for TV, hence re-electon

I was feeling pretty confident that this was all bluster and formality but I'm getting increasingly nervous. I think the Republicans might be broken down enough that they may not be able to act even if they wanted to. This may come down to the unprecedented move of raising the debt ceiling by presidential decree.

43 bratwurst  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:41:39pm

re: #36 Rightwingconspirator

It's more and more obvious. The Tea Party side of the GOP would rather trigger a needless depression than a black man re elected to the Presidency.

Every day it becomes harder to escape this sad and depressing conclusion.

44 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:41:43pm

why wasn't a debt ceiling increase part of a package deal when the Bush tax cuts were extended?...why weren't corporate loopholes and unfair subsidies addressed by the dem house before the last election?...it seems like this whole thing was a gift to the GOP

45 EastSider  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:44:29pm

If you give the House a cookie...

46 mr.fusion  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:44:37pm

re: #39 jc717


Has Obama ever taken negotiation 101? The guy's opening offers are absurdly generous. Of course the other side will want more.

Yes, the GOP is playing politics, but Obama is enabling them every step of the way.

I think we might see his "negotiation" strategy bear fruit in the 2012 elections. I'm not counting on it, but I'm hoping enough of the country is paying attention to finally say "Enough!" to the nihilist Tea Party/GOP

47 Simply Sarah  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:45:27pm

Honestly, the more I've been thinking on this (Which is way more than I wish I were), the more clear it becomes that a sizable (Or, at least, powerful) segment of the far-right is not just OK with a possible default, but is actively hoping and pushing for it. In their minds, it can only bring good. I'm pretty sure they are quite literally trying to play out Atlas Shrugged here.

- Kill Obama's reelection chances (I think there's a lot of validity to this. If the economy tanks again, it's very likely Obama will end up taking most of the blame come the 2012 election purely due to being President. I don't know if most people will be able to look past that)
- Force immediate massive cutbacks in government spending and programs that can only grow as this continues and as revenue drops due to a free-falling economy.
- Default will make it harder and more expensive for the government to borrow money, forcing further spending cuts to free up money either to pay for the debt or because the U.S. will simply stop honoring debt and will lack the funds for anything.
- With the likely collapse of the U.S. dollar as a reserve currency, along with the hit to economies around the world, a new (But not really) standard backing for money will be needed. You all know where I'm going with this.
- As a bonus, it might push the EU over the edge, tearing down all those socialist disasters once and for all.

Yeah, it's a bit paranoid and I doubt many have actually thought that deeply about the topic, but I can't help but think that more than a few powerful people really are thinking something along those lines.

48 tomg51spence  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:45:38pm

Earmarks haven' been brought up recently, that I have noticed.
Are they a dead issue once again?

And yes, budget discussions will only grow in importance and frequency in the coming years.

49 blueraven  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:45:38pm

John Boehner is the speaker of the house. It is his damn job to get the votes to pass something. I am tired of hearing, "I dont have the votes" for this or that. Did Nancy Pelosi do that? No, she made sure she got the votes even when it was difficult. If he cant get anything past the TPGOP and has to go with democrats, then so be it. Get it done!

50 mr.fusion  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:45:42pm

re: #44 albusteve

why wasn't a debt ceiling increase part of a package deal when the Bush tax cuts were extended?...why weren't corporate loopholes and unfair subsidies addressed by the dem house before the last election?...it seems like this whole thing was a gift to the GOP

You forget that having 60 Democrats in the Senate was, for the first time ever, meaningless due to the group hate think going on in the GOP

51 EastSider  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:45:45pm

re: #44 albusteve

why wasn't a debt ceiling increase part of a package deal when the Bush tax cuts were extended?...why weren't corporate loopholes and unfair subsidies addressed by the dem house before the last election?...it seems like this whole thing was a gift to the GOP

And why is a "tax increase" (also known as the allowance of the expiration of a temporary tax cut via doing nothing....but a rose by any other name), why is this so bad? Taxes are lower now than they were during Reagan's term.

52 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:45:59pm

I've reached the point that I don't care anymore, let the whole damned thing crash. Perhaps a nice splash of freezing water in their faces will wake voters up to the reality that they can't expect to get everything they want and not pay for it. If they really believe that they can have all their spending and no tax increases, then they deserve what's coming to them.

53 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:46:11pm

re: #32 Bulworth

That aggravating thing about this is, didn't we just go through this a few months ago with the budget debate and the threatened govt shutdown? I guess we can look forward to this sort of thing every couple of months now.

Yes. We've got yet another run for the budget for the fiscal year that begins in October. That's the Ryan plan you've heard so little of during all this.

54 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:46:17pm

re: #39 jc717

Has Obama ever taken negotiation 101? The guy's opening offers are absurdly generous. Of course the other side will want more.

Yes, the GOP is playing politics, but Obama is enabling them every step of the way.


Obama's opening offer was generous to encourage the GOP to make a quick and easy deal. His subsequent offers have become less generous as the Republicans have backed themselves into a corner and are going to face increasing voter backlash for creating this mess.

55 Four More Tears  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:48:04pm

re: #42 Killgore Trout

I was feeling pretty confident that this was all bluster and formality but I'm getting increasingly nervous. I think the Republicans might be broken down enough that they may not be able to act even if they wanted to. This may come down to the unprecedented move of raising the debt ceiling by presidential decree.

And then they impeach him for breaking the law.

A cunning plan!

56 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:48:10pm

re: #47 Simply Sarah

There are enough people who truly want to see all those points implemented, the only question is if and to what extent they are going to see them through.

57 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:48:56pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Obama's opening offer was generous to encourage the GOP to make a quick and easy deal. His subsequent offers have become less generous as the Republicans have backed themselves into a corner and are going to face increasing voter backlash for creating this mess.

Thing is, there's no iron in the glove. He's already backed off on refusal to sign no short-term deals, and now we're seeing a backing off of refusal to sign a cuts-only bill. Cornyn's very likely right, if a bill ends up on Obama's desk, he'll sign it, if only to stave off default for a few more months.

58 simoom  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:49:34pm

re: #44 albusteve

why wasn't a debt ceiling increase part of a package deal when the Bush tax cuts were extended?...why weren't corporate loopholes and unfair subsidies addressed by the dem house before the last election?...it seems like this whole thing was a gift to the GOP

Because the GOP had already identified what a golden opportunity the debt ceiling would be, and that the leverage they could gain in threatening the country's welfare (in order to improve their bargaining position) increased the closer they came to the deadline. Even if they'd have willingly given that opportunity up, I'd imagine they'd have sold it far too dearly.

From the 2010 elections:
[Link: www.politico.com...]

Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele said Sunday that Republicans intend to fight against a vote due next year on raising the limit on government borrowing.

"We are not going to compromise on raising more debt. We are not going to compromise on raising the debt ceiling," Steele said on CNN's "State of the Union."

While in the congressional minority, Republicans have made political hay out of periodic votes in Congress to raise the national debt, which are needed whenever the the government runs budget deficits. The dynamic will be different, however, if the GOP controls the House. In that case, it will be votes and bills favored by a Republican majority that get held up by a refusal to endorse a rise in the debt ceiling.

Some tea-party-backed candidates for Congress have made a point of promising to fight an increase in the debt ceiling. For example, Utah Republican Senate nominee Michael Lee has vowed to oppose an increase in the debt ceiling, even if it angers Republican leaders.

59 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:49:56pm

re: #36 Rightwingconspirator

It's more and more obvious. The Tea Party side of the GOP would rather trigger a needless depression than a black man re elected to the Presidency.

This is the crux of the biscuit. The GOP has stated clearly and repeatedly that their individual and collective goal is ensuring that Obama doesn't get a second term, and all other considerations are a distant second.

60 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:50:14pm

Obama risks being the second president brought down due to poor handling of a hostage crisis.

61 Simply Sarah  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:51:01pm

re: #52 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I've reached the point that I don't care anymore, let the whole damned thing crash. Perhaps a nice splash of freezing water in their faces will wake voters up to the reality that they can't expect to get everything they want and not pay for it. If they really believe that they can have all their spending and no tax increases, then they deserve what's coming to them.

I'm finding myself having to fight back hard against this line of thought. While part of me wonders if it might not be for the best, I also have to acknowledge that it could devastate economies world-wide. It's a rather hard step for me to take to just declare the whole world should burn in hopes of cleansing it of some of its ills.

62 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:51:38pm

re: #58 simoom

Because the GOP had already identified what a golden opportunity the debt ceiling would be, and that the leverage they could gain in threatening the country's welfare (in order to improve their bargaining position) increased the closer they came to the deadline. Even if they'd have willingly given that opportunity up, I'd imagine they'd have sold it far too dearly.

From the 2010 elections:
[Link: www.politico.com...]

so you think the GOP would have tossed away the Bush cuts in favor of using the ceiling for political leverage?....I don't

63 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:51:48pm

“Some people” are concerned that raising taxes would result from forming the committee, Boehner said on conservative Rush Limbaugh’s radio show."


Some people are a lot more f***ing concerned about 10% of our GDP going up in a puff of smoke if Republicans can't start taking "Yes" for an answer to the things they previously demanded.

64 garhighway  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:52:57pm

re: #50 mr.fusion

You forget that having 60 Democrats in the Senate was, for the first time ever, meaningless due to the group hate think going on in the GOP

Please don't confuse people with facts.

65 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:53:40pm

re: #61 Simply Sarah

I'm finding myself having to fight back hard against this line of thought. While part of me wonders if it might not be for the best, I also have to acknowledge that it could devastate economies world-wide. It's a rather hard step for me to take to just declare the whole world should burn in hopes of cleansing it of some of its ills.

25% unemployment for the foreseeable future builds character.

66 simoom  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:54:54pm

re: #62 albusteve

so you think the GOP would have tossed away the Bush cuts in favor of using the ceiling for political leverage?...I don't

The problem with the tax cuts was that Dems in congress were never willing to let them all expire, as they'd all campaigned on promising the preservation of the sub-250K part. So any threat to do nothing and let them all expire was entirely empty on the Dem side, especially right before an election where they'd be nailed to the wall with a such a major broken promise.

67 laZardo  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:55:00pm

re: #52 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I've reached the point that I don't care anymore, let the whole damned thing crash. Perhaps a nice splash of freezing water in their faces will wake voters up to the reality that they can't expect to get everything they want and not pay for it. If they really believe that they can have all their spending and no tax increases, then they deserve what's coming to them.

The worst bit about that is that it just might convince voters that it's not the Republicans to blame.

68 Simply Sarah  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:55:01pm

re: #57 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Thing is, there's no iron in the glove. He's already backed off on refusal to sign no short-term deals, and now we're seeing a backing off of refusal to sign a cuts-only bill. Cornyn's very likely right, if a bill ends up on Obama's desk, he'll sign it, if only to stave off default for a few more months.

That's the thing, though. If the Republicans in Congress actually decide that they aren't going to blink in this game of chicken, it leaves Obama with only the bad choices of veering off himself or crashing. That's lose-lose for him (And for everyone, probably), but that's what can happen when you play against someone with no fear of death, so to speak.

69 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:55:02pm

re: #61 Simply Sarah

I'm finding myself having to fight back hard against this line of thought. While part of me wonders if it might not be for the best, I also have to acknowledge that it could devastate economies world-wide. It's a rather hard step for me to take to just declare the whole world should burn in hopes of cleansing it of some of its ills.

The thing is, I've grown weary of the pablum that says all our problems are solely due to spending and that, by cutting spending, we can begin to "fix" those problems. No, the heart of the problem as I see it is a culture that says "Give it all to me now, put it on my card, and I'll deal with the bill later." And politicians on both sides have fed that belief for years, telling folks that they can get all the spending they want, while getting lower taxes to sweeten the deal.

We're told we need to "live within our means" to pay down the debt, but the reality is we can't do that with a plan that's only cuts or only taxes. If the American people can't understand that, then it's time they got a very rude wake-up call.

70 laZardo  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:55:20pm

re: #65 negativ

25% unemployment for the foreseeable future builds character.

Hence my #1.

71 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:55:25pm

re: #65 negativ

25% unemployment for the foreseeable future builds character.

Hey, those people who survived the Great Depression were paragons of character.

72 Targetpractice  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:55:36pm

BRB, gotta run to the store.

73 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:57:03pm

re: #57 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Thing is, there's no iron in the glove. He's already backed off on refusal to sign no short-term deals, and now we're seeing a backing off of refusal to sign a cuts-only bill. Cornyn's very likely right, if a bill ends up on Obama's desk, he'll sign it, if only to stave off default for a few more months.

Possibly. I think the unilaterally raising the debt ceiling by himself is pretty sketchy.

74 albusteve  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:57:07pm

re: #66 simoom

The problem with the tax cuts was that Dems in congress were never willing to let them all expire, as they'd all campaigned on promising the preservation of the sub-250K part. So any threat to do nothing and let them all expire was entirely empty on the Dem side, especially right before an election where they'd be nailed to the wall with a such a major broken promise.

I think it would have been the smart thing to do at the time...we'll never know now

75 Linden Arden  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:57:50pm

Charles is right again - but not thinking like a Teabagger (of course).

If I/we wanted to cold-turkey fuck the Federal government into massive defunding I would force the Feds into default.

We are dealing with a real fundamental restructuring of the USA - not the fake one GOPers accused President Obama of.

76 Simply Sarah  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:58:10pm

re: #69 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

The thing is, I've grown weary of the pablum that says all our problems are solely due to spending and that, by cutting spending, we can begin to "fix" those problems. No, the heart of the problem as I see it is a culture that says "Give it all to me now, put it on my card, and I'll deal with the bill later." And politicians on both sides have fed that belief for years, telling folks that they can get all the spending they want, while getting lower taxes to sweeten the deal.

We're told we need to "live within our means" to pay down the debt, but the reality is we can't do that with a plan that's only cuts or only taxes. If the American people can't understand that, then it's time they got a very rude wake-up call.

Oh, I agree. I'm just not sure this would have the desired effect and, even if it did, there might not be anything left to wake up to...

77 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 1:58:20pm

Raising taxes.

Raising taxes.

Raising taxes.

ON WHO ARE THEY RAISING TAXES?? Gah It makes me insane. NO, not the middle class. NO not the poor. YES, on the wealthy. On those who can afford it. Can we get this right without the spin?

(What would Washington be without the spin....)

78 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:01:12pm

re: #77 marjoriemoon

It's inhuman and unthinkable to suggest that Jerry Jones' marginal tax rate should be raised 3%.

79 Simply Sarah  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:01:33pm

re: #77 marjoriemoon

Raising taxes.

Raising taxes.

Raising taxes.

ON WHO ARE THEY RAISING TAXES?? Gah It makes me insane. NO, not the middle class. NO not the poor. YES, on the wealthy. On those who can afford it. Can we get this right without the spin?

(What would Washington be without the spin...)

The worst part is that this isn't even really about taxes. If it was, Reid's plan with zero increases in revenue wouldn't have been dismissed out of hand for "not cutting the right things".

80 simoom  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:03:48pm

re: #74 albusteve

I think it would have been the smart thing to do at the time...we'll never know now

I torn on it. I'd imagine if they'd taken that route there'd have been no extension of unemployment insurance, no extension of the stimulus payroll tax cut, no DADT repeal and no ratification of the START treaty.

81 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:04:43pm

re: #62 albusteve

so you think the GOP would have tossed away the Bush cuts in favor of using the ceiling for political leverage?...I don't

I doubt that they thought that far ahead.

82 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:05:38pm

re: #77 marjoriemoon

ON WHO ARE THEY RAISING TAXES?? YES, on the wealthy. On those who can afford it.

Why do you want to further hobble the Job Creators? Obviously another socilist class warrior

83 tomg51spence  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:06:57pm
but the reality is we can't do that with a plan that's only cuts or only taxes

A problem is that in theory its can't be done with only taxes, but it can be done with only cuts (limiting cases of extreme tax still doesn't cover expenditures, and obviously cuts are theoretically possible). So the argument starts with the argument for tax increases at a disadvantage.

84 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:07:09pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

Possibly. I think the unilaterally raising the debt ceiling by himself is pretty sketchy.

The 14th amendment says

"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void."

Or to cut out the unimportant parts...

"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, (including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion,) shall not be questioned."


If we "Default" then the issue of "can we pay our public debt" becomes and issue, and thus one could argue that the law creating a debt ceiling was unconstitutional.

Now if Obma did raise it by taking this particular route he would probably be impeached.

On the other hand, actually replacing him with Joe Biden would require 28 Senate Democrats to join with all of the Senate Republicans.

Honestly if it was August 2nd and no deal in sight, I'd do it.

The American Economy is more important than any one president.

85 jc717  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:08:58pm

re: #46 mr.fusion

I think we might see his "negotiation" strategy bear fruit in the 2012 elections. I'm not counting on it, but I'm hoping enough of the country is paying attention to finally say "Enough!" to the nihilist Tea Party/GOP

I doubt it. No one likes a pushover, and Obama is seen as such more and more. And, it's an accurate description.

86 sagehen  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:09:43pm

again, let's go to tea-party whackos' metaphor of choice.

"a household has to meet its budget, if they don't have the money they don't buy it."

"a business has to meet its budget, if they don't have the money they don't buy it."

So nobody they know has a mortgage (which, for most people, is debt equal to more than 2 years' income). And when people they know are having a hard time meeting their bills... they'd handle it entirely with spending cuts. none of them would ever do anything to increase revenue. Nobody would ever try to get some overtime, or start a small business, or let their kids mow lawns or their homemaker spouse get a part-time job. Would never happen.

And businesses? Nobody ever heard of a business taking out loans to buy equipment, to hire new staff when their new product is a hit they should up production. And nobody ever heard of a business trying to increase revenue. Never.

What weird 18th century lives these people must be living.

87 Simply Sarah  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:09:58pm

re: #84 jamesfirecat

Thing is, I think that even were Obama to do this, the damage done by things even reaching that point would probably be almost as bad as if he didn't take that step. Sure, we might not default, at least not immediately, but the fact is that we as a country would have still stepped over the edge, only for Obama to try and bungee jump after us. That's not exactly going to inspire market confidence.

88 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:11:47pm

re: #82 ralphieboy

Why do you want to further hobble the Job Creators? Obviously another socialist class warrior

Like totally dude.

89 jc717  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:11:49pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Obama's opening offer was generous to encourage the GOP to make a quick and easy deal. His subsequent offers have become less generous as the Republicans have backed themselves into a corner and are going to face increasing voter backlash for creating this mess.

Less generous? He put Medicare and SS on the table. The country would have went apeshit if a GOT president suggested that. Obama is to the right of Nixon with his proposals. Yeah, that's not generous.

90 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:12:50pm

re: #88 marjoriemoon

Like totally dude.


That's "socilist", just like it would read on a Tea Party poster

91 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:12:50pm

re: #82 ralphieboy

Why do you want to further hobble the Job Creators? Obviously another socilist class warrior

They need the extra taxable income to employ high tech industries (somewhere) who design and build these things./

My tax refund

PS you mess up your quote formatting frequently for some reason.

92 simoom  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:13:36pm

re: #84 jamesfirecat

The American Economy is more important than any one president.

If it's really going to come to that I think he'll have to first weather some period of technical default (furloughs, missed gov't disability, SS, medicare checks, etc), to get some buy-in by the public (as the ferocity of the push-back will depend on the politics of the situation). And even after he unilaterally raises the ceiling, you'll probably still get some of the downside of a long-term technical default anyway, with the legal challenges and investors, contractors, etc wondering if the untested new authority will ultimately hold up.

93 elisabeth  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:13:47pm

re: #57 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Haven't checked all the comments yet but the White House said today that the president will not sign Boehner's bill should it somehow get past the Senate.

94 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:14:07pm

In other news, Rupert Murdoch says he is deeply touched by all the messages left on Amy Winehouse's voicemail.

95 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:15:07pm

Every time I try to game out the consequences I keep running into the one reason this is different from history.

We CAN pay, we WON'T pay.

This isn't Venezuela or Argentina or any of the dozens of sovereign defaults of the last century. The evidence is simple - even with the threat of default our bonds are cheap with very low interest rates. All it would take to end the deficit over the next decade (with zero cuts to our spending) would be to end the variety of 'temporary' tax cuts; both the Bush cuts on individual taxes and several corporate 'temporary' loopholes. An increase of the cap for payroll taxes to $110,000 would make the retirement deficit move to at least 50 years out.

But the lowest top marginal tax rate and the lowest corporate tax revenues as proportion of total revenues since the great depression still isn't low enough. And we don't want to pay what we owe, either.

It makes me crazy because I (and my family and my friends and my nation) are going to have to pay the consequences for these zealots coming to power.

96 Linden Arden  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:15:08pm

Was today's Bllomberg article posted here today?

The one about how all the GOP leaders of today voted for all the high deficit Bush plans?

97 dragonfire1981  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:15:37pm

What really burns me about this whole thing is you have the top politicians and the PRESIDENT of the most powerful country in the free world acting like fucking children.

The GOP is like the kid who stands in the corner with his arms crossed and refuses to play a game unless everyone agrees to his rules. The problem in this case is that this determined kid ALSO happens to hold all the balls, stick and nets so there's no way to play unless you give in to him.

The United States is considered by many to be a politically stable and advanced nation. This kind of bullshit completely undermines that.

Do you see Canada doing crap like this? No.
Do you see Japan doing crap like this? No.
Do you see Germany doing crap like this? No.

Most other first world countries are smart enough to compromise and get their shit together before it comes to something like this.

There's a part of me who seriously thinks they truly are going to send it off a cliff and try to blame it all on Obama for 2012.

And I can GUARANTEE you that if this thing goes the distance and the Tea Partiers stop seeing their social security money, the GOP will immediately blame Obama's "refusal to compromise" for the issue.

98 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:16:21pm

re: #91 Naso Tang


That's the "wingnut" text option, the equivalent of a permanent sarc tag.

[ wingut ] [ /wingnut ]

(just remove the spaces between brackets and "wingnut" to get it)

99 jc717  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:16:28pm

re: #68 Simply Sarah

That's the thing, though. If the Republicans in Congress actually decide that they aren't going to blink in this game of chicken, it leaves Obama with only the bad choices of veering off himself or crashing. That's lose-lose for him (And for everyone, probably), but that's what can happen when you play against someone with no fear of death, so to speak.

Nope. The minute you decide that, the game is lost. You HAVE to be willing to walk away, especially in face of what amounts to a childish tantrum by the right. Or, you invoke the 14th and do it alone and tell them to take you to court. Furthermore, you tell Geitner to not send any checks to contractors from the GOP districts that votes no to a reasonable deal.

100 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:17:42pm

re: #98 ralphieboy

That's the "wingnut" text option, the equivalent of a permanent sarc tag.

[ wingut ] [ /wingnut ]

(just remove the spaces between brackets and "wingnut" to get it)

Really? I suppose I should read the manual, but why won't it quote properly?

Call Charles.

101 jc717  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:18:10pm

re: #64 garhighway

Please don't confuse people with facts.

They didn't need 60 votes to let the tax cuts expire...
Those facts?

102 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:20:03pm

re: #99 jc717

Nope. The minute you decide that, the game is lost. You HAVE to be willing to walk away, especially in face of what amounts to a childish tantrum by the right. Or, you invoke the 14th and do it alone and tell them to take you to court. Furthermore, you tell Geitner to not send any checks to contractors from the GOP districts that votes no to a reasonable deal.

He really, really should have said - above board or behind closed doors - that if by August 2d he didn't have a deal, he'd use the 14th and face the impeachment.

"Clinton survived it, wanna bet I won't?"

103 Simply Sarah  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:21:09pm

re: #99 jc717

Nope. The minute you decide that, the game is lost. You HAVE to be willing to walk away, especially in face of what amounts to a childish tantrum by the right. Or, you invoke the 14th and do it alone and tell them to take you to court. Furthermore, you tell Geitner to not send any checks to contractors from the GOP districts that votes no to a reasonable deal.

Well, like I said, it's lose-lose. Not having the limit raised *will* have serious consequences in, at least, the near and mid term (Even raising it at this point probably has some consequences), regardless of how it might be dealt with. You need to either give in to unreasonable demands or deal with the destruction caused by the tantrum. Neither is a good result.

104 makeitstop  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:22:02pm

re: #97 dragonfire1981

What really burns me about this whole thing is you have the top politicians and the PRESIDENT of the most powerful country in the free world acting like fucking children.

I fully agree with you, except for that 'president' part.

The man is trying to deal with legislators who are every bit as dirt-stupid as the people who voted them into office. I'll wager that if 10% of the TPGOP in the House know one single thing about economics or finance, then that's 9% more than I would have expected.

This is not Obama's fault. He's dealing with zealots who are praying for this country to fail so they can install their Tax-Free Religio-Stupid Utopia.

105 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:26:41pm

re: #102 kirkspencer

He really, really should have said - above board or behind closed doors - that if by August 2d he didn't have a deal, he'd use the 14th and face the impeachment.

"Clinton survived it, wanna bet I won't?"

I think using the 14th would ensure A) that he gets a second term and B) makes the GOP so crazy that they'll nakedly incite violence

But if he plans on using it, it would probably be best not to show his hand :-)


'Guess what GOP. You're all going to act like stupid little subhuman slugs? then i'll treat you as such. Suck on the 14th. POTUS out."

106 allegro  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:28:07pm

re: #97 dragonfire1981

And I can GUARANTEE you that if this thing goes the distance and the Tea Partiers stop seeing their social security money, the GOP will immediately blame Obama's "refusal to compromise" for the issue.

They already are. Did you watch the Orange Boener Show after Obama's speech last night?

107 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:28:49pm

re: #97 dragonfire1981

What really burns me about this whole thing is you have the top politicians and the PRESIDENT of the most powerful country in the free world acting like fucking children.

The GOP is like the kid who stands in the corner with his arms crossed and refuses to play a game unless everyone agrees to his rules. The problem in this case is that this determined kid ALSO happens to hold all the balls, stick and nets so there's no way to play unless you give in to him.

The United States is considered by many to be a politically stable and advanced nation. This kind of bullshit completely undermines that.

Do you see Canada doing crap like this? No.
Do you see Japan doing crap like this? No.
Do you see Germany doing crap like this? No.

Most other first world countries are smart enough to compromise and get their shit together before it comes to something like this.

There's a part of me who seriously thinks they truly are going to send it off a cliff and try to blame it all on Obama for 2012.

And I can GUARANTEE you that if this thing goes the distance and the Tea Partiers stop seeing their social security money, the GOP will immediately blame Obama's "refusal to compromise" for the issue.

Why we're not actually the greatest country on earth, boldfaced

108 kirkspencer  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:38:14pm

While I can't grasp all the consequences of the default I can trace a few. And I'm going to admit that one or two give me shivers of anticipation despite the dread.

I'm speaking of the CDS. Our national debt is hedged with a bunch of CDSs that act as insurance against the debt. The day we default, the creditors make claims against those special notes. Because of our size, the whole ugly mess that didn't get cleaned up two years ago or last year gets exposed. We see a major rebalancing of the accounts of all the major holders, and all the holders who have more than 10% of their accounts in the CDSs. In particular and driving my anticipation are major banks.

We can't bail them out - we're the ones defaulting.

I admit in part it's a case of taking them down with me, because I WILL go down, as will a number of my fellow citizens. But this helps ease the pain a bit. Not vengeance, but knowing those who contributed will not escape.

109 NVAudiophile  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:48:59pm

This country has both a revenue problem and a spending problem. The spending problem is due in large measure to entitlement programs that were not designed to remain solvent in the face of large demographic shifts, whereby fewer and fewer works pay for the benefits received by an ever larger group of beneficiaries. As for the revenue problem, I wonder how much of the problem is attributable to under employment.
Example: I work for a high-tech company that grows almost exclusively through acquisitions. Upon buying a company we immediately lay off all of the engineers and software developers and outsource the work to China. We used to outsource to India, but tech workers in India have begun demanding higher wages, so we now outsource exclusively to China. The jobs we outsource used to be high paying computer programming and electrical engineering jobs—think US workers with advanced degrees in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering and 20 years of experience. Such highly-skilled people could easily expect to earn $120,000 per year or more in the US. No longer.
I had a conversation with an executive recently who told me the next outsourcing opportunity is in South America because people there are “willing to work for food.”
What we are witnessing, I believe, is a return to a slave-based economy, marked by a small upper class and a much larger lower class. Gone will be the upper-income wage earners whose taxes funded local, state, and federal government, and sustained communities.
Now democrats like to demonize anyone who makes more than 100,000 per year, as if such a princely sum is undeserved—regardless of education or years of experience. And republicans: they align squarely with the employers looking to outsource as many jobs as possible. However this trend, if allowed to continue, will not produce the revenue necessary to sustain communities and the nation. The country is broke. And I am skeptical that my children will have career prospects on par with my own.

110 cat-tikvah  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:49:14pm

Today's theme song for the Teahadis/GOP:

Tried to make me give up tax cuts,
I said no, no, no
Forget any moderation
I won't go, go, go

And we've seen where such behavior leads....

111 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:49:18pm
Following Obama’s call Monday night for the public to push their elected representatives for a deal, Capitol Hill phone lines were jammed and websites of key lawmakers—including House Speaker John Boehner—crashed as citizens from coast to coast tried to weigh in on the debate.

(snip)

While political leaders continued sniping at each other’s latest proposals, conservative Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell called for renewed negotiations with Obama and indicated his party must be willing to move away from some of its demands.

“We are going to have to get back together and get a solution here,” McConnell said of formal talks with the White House and congressional Democrats. “We cannot get a perfect solution, from my point of view, controlling only the House of Representatives. So I am prepared to accept something less than perfect because perfect is not achievable.”

From CNN

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

112 Bulworth  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:52:12pm
While political leaders continued sniping at each other’s latest proposals, conservative Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell called for renewed negotiations with Obama and indicated his party must be willing to move away from some of its demands.

“We are going to have to get back together and get a solution here,” McConnell said of formal talks with the White House and congressional Democrats. “We cannot get a perfect solution, from my point of view, controlling only the House of Representatives. So I am prepared to accept something less than perfect because perfect is not achievable.”

How long before Mitch has to walk that back?

113 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 2:58:23pm

re: #109 NVAudiophile

I agree with you, and your company is part of the problem although it didn't create it. However, I haven't heard $100k salaries being demonized anywhere in the "tax the rich" comments by anyone.

There is a partial solution to the issue of jobs, by making real incentives for manufacturing in this country, but Republicans think the rich do that with their pocket change, and Democrats are too scared to talk of incentives (spending) for anything.

114 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 3:00:18pm

re: #109 NVAudiophile

$100k a year for a household is middle class, the opposite of the people democrats are demonizing fyi

115 Spocomptonite  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 3:06:07pm

Watching the debt ceiling debacle makes me want to sing "O, Canada!" For comfort. Damn it, Republicans, I like living near the border, but on this side of it. They are about to No True Scotland the entire country, where only the True Patriots still live here because they are too stupid about the economy to realize they brought it down themselves.

In Canada, I would pay for health care through my taxes instead of through my nose, school financing would be easier, and they don't destroy their own economy. Well, yet.

116 simoom  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 3:16:23pm

re: #49 blueraven

John Boehner is the speaker of the house. It is his damn job to get the votes to pass something. I am tired of hearing, "I dont have the votes" for this or that.

Maybe getting the votes is tough because Spkr. Boehner can't do stuff like this anymore ///:

117 Ming  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 4:11:45pm

The Republicans believe their own propaganda: the nation has realized that Obama is evil and an enemy of America, and in 2010, the nation sent them to Washington to kick butt. The reality is rather different. Sure, the Republicans did well in the 2010 election, but that does NOT indicate an ideological seismic shift. It indicates a significant shift, and significant concerns among the voters. But in reality, it means that a district may have gone from (55% Dem / 45% Rep) to (54% Rep / 46% Dem). Yes, in 2010, many Americans, especially independent voters, expressed suspicion of government, and a desire for smaller government. Fine. But here's where the Republicans go crazy: they assume, because dozens of districts went to e.g. 55% Republican, that "most Americans" want to gut Social Security, Medicare, government medical research, DARPA, etc. And these "most Americans" sent the freshmen Congresspeople of 2010 to Washington to battle the evil socialists. This Republican viewpoint, expressed by the Speaker of the House yesterday on TV, is at odds with reality. My understanding is that polls in general show that "most Americans" want a combination of tax increases and spending cuts. So, "most Americans" do not want to radically reduce the size and scope of government, at least not right this week.

118 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 5:11:29pm

The deal will get done, but the adults are acting like a bunch of kids.

119 Ming  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 5:17:24pm

re: #105 WindUpBird

I agree that Obama may have no choice but to use the 14th Amendment, to keep the country from falling off a cliff.

The problem is that Obama is a constitutional lawyer by training. He wants the system to work. There's an entire chapter in The Audacity of Hope devoted to the Constitution. So, even though I agree with you, that the 14th Amendment may be the only way out, I wonder if Obama would be willing to do that. He seems so darned eager to make the system work, SOMEHOW. I'm not saying this to criticize him; it would be great if "the system" worked, and Congress did its job. But I'm not sure Obama would REALLY invoke the 14th Amendment. We'll have to wait and see!

120 sagehen  Tue, Jul 26, 2011 7:45:15pm

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]


Moments after the Congressional Budget Office released an analysis finding that the House Republicans' debt limit bill falls far short of one their key goals, House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) decided to rewrite the legislation, and according to GOP leadership, an expected Wednesday floor vote on the package will be delayed until Thursday at the earliest.


John Boehner is very bad at his job.


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