Jump to bottom

476 comments
1 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:22:16pm

I don't really need to watch this. do i?

2 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:24:35pm

One minute you're just shopping, then "BOOM!". I take it as a reminder of how sudden life can end.

3 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:25:28pm

re: #1 ggt

I don't really need to watch this. do i?

Yes, you do. We must know the wrongs committed by the terrorist enemy, keep ourselves focused on why he must be defeated.

4 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:27:07pm

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

Yes, you do. We must know the wrongs committed by the terrorist enemy, keep ourselves focused on why he must be defeated.

I need to sleep tonite.

5 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:28:32pm

re: #4 ggt

I need to sleep tonite.

The first one won't give you nightmares. There's nothing ugly seen and no one is seen getting hurt. But it will still get you going enough.

6 Kragar  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:29:34pm

Just remember, those people sitting there eating were "asking for it" according to some people.

7 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:30:37pm

Gawd damnit. Just heartbreaking.

And the people who make excuses for this terrorist Anders are no different than the people who made/make excuses for Bin Laden. Sick, disgusting scum, the lot of them.

8 Kid A  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:31:39pm

No Christians are terrorists.
///

9 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:31:54pm

The right wing blogs are uniting to defend their heroes today - Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Fjordman, et al.

This herd behavior no longer surprises me. It's what I've been writing about for years -- there are no boundaries of decency or honesty for these people any more.

10 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:32:27pm

Interesting thing about it is, in San Francisco, it would be impossible to tell whether it was a bomb or an earthquake. At least initially.

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

Yes, you do. We must know the wrongs committed by the terrorist enemy, keep ourselves focused on why he must be defeated.

Uh lol, we have been defeating the conservative Christian-supremacist terrorist enemy for generations. We already know exactly from direct experience why they are to be trounced, and don't need youtube videos for reminders.

Too bad we can only count on ourselves and each other to follow through, though.

11 ProMayaLiberal  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:33:36pm

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

Especially when we know this will inevitably happen in the US. We have the same issue here.

His manifesto has been useful in showing where the problems are coming from. Much of it is in the US, and many Tories here (Beck, among others), have justified it.

At this point, the only thing that will stop this insanity will be a similar attack in the US. And considering the state of the Right-Wing in the US, it will happen eventually.

12 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:34:40pm

re: #10 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Interesting thing about it is, in San Francisco, it would be impossible to tell whether it was a bomb or an earthquake. At least initially.

Uh lol, we have been defeating the conservative Christian-supremacist terrorist enemy for generations. We already know exactly from direct experience why they are to be trounced, and don't need youtube videos for reminders.

Too bad we can only count on ourselves and each other to follow through, though.

Downding for the false association. You're painting with too broad a brush again. But while I'd like to stay and argue, I'm fading and its after midnight.

Goodnight, all.

13 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:35:02pm

re: #9 Charles

The right wing blogs are uniting to defend their heroes today - Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Fjordman, et al.

This herd behavior no longer surprises me. It's what I've been writing about for years -- there are no boundaries of decency or honesty for these people any more.

There never were. They are straight-up eliminationists, just like their forebears and people they admire.

Trying to accommodate or appease their group pathology is a fool's errand.

14 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:35:14pm

re: #11 ProLifeLiberal

Especially when we know this will inevitably happen in the US. We have the same issue here.

His manifesto has been useful in showing where the problems are coming from. Much of it is in the US, and many Tories here (Beck, among others), have justified it.

At this point, the only thing that will stop this insanity will be a similar attack in the US. And considering the state of the Right-Wing in the US, it will happen eventually.

I thought it already had happened here?

15 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:37:31pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

Downding for the false association. You're painting with too broad a brush again. But while I'd like to stay and argue, I'm fading and its after midnight.

Goodnight, all.

I haven't accused anyone of anything, so there is no need for anyone to feel guilty.

Matter of fact, just have your mouse ready to downding every time I post, because as long as these people persist in exporting American socon sociopathy, you can expect something from me about it.

16 Kragar  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:37:38pm

re: #9 Charles

The right wing blogs are uniting to defend their heroes today - Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Fjordman, et al.

This herd behavior no longer surprises me. It's what I've been writing about for years -- there are no boundaries of decency or honesty for these people any more.

They're so wrapped up in calling Muslims and Liberals inhuman monsters they can't even see what they've become.

17 ProMayaLiberal  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:39:16pm

re: #14 ggt

If you are talking about OKC, that has no bearing on today.

The FBI and various Police Agencies are good, but they are not perfect. Eventually, one will slip through the cracks, and a tragedy will happen. The Anti-Liberal and Anti-Muslim hysteria in the US will only stop after such an event.

After all, look at how the militia movement was largely stopped after OKC. History repeats itself.

18 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:41:17pm

re: #17 ProLifeLiberal

If you are talking about OKC, that has no bearing on today.

The FBI and various Police Agencies are good, but they are not perfect. Eventually, one will slip through the cracks, and a tragedy will happen. The Anti-Liberal and Anti-Muslim hysteria in the US will only stop after such an event.

After all, look at how the militia movement was largely stopped after OKC. History repeats itself.

History moves in cycles. Notice how recently the militia movement started up again? We will soon forget and it'll start again.
Fun.

19 ProMayaLiberal  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:45:04pm

re: #18 Varek Raith

Now, the question is, what kind of incident will occur.

An OKC incident?
An Oslo incident?
Or and attack on a Mosque?

One of these three will occur. The excesses of the Right, and their refusal to reign it in, ensures it.

20 Gus  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:45:15pm

re: #9 Charles

The right wing blogs are uniting to defend their heroes today - Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Fjordman, et al.

This herd behavior no longer surprises me. It's what I've been writing about for years -- there are no boundaries of decency or honesty for these people any more.

I look forward to the day that these reactionary wingnut bloggers are relegated to the dustbin of history.

21 Four More Tears  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:45:25pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

Downding for the false association. You're painting with too broad a brush again. But while I'd like to stay and argue, I'm fading and its after midnight.

Goodnight, all.

Oh? She is? Guys like the two people who shot Dr. George Tiller? People like the good Conservative Christians who helped Uganda along with the kill the gays bill?

Please. It's religious extremism. You want that argue that some other religion has the lead over Christianity you can. But only if you count the last ten years.

22 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:47:17pm

"It's not what you say, it's how you say it"

---anonymous/unknown

23 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:47:27pm

night all!

24 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:48:45pm

OT: I apologize for going off topic so early in the thread—it's late here and I have to get to sleep, but I couldn't resist advertising my latest page because it made my day:

Gov. Christie Blasts Critics of New Muslim American Judge

Goonight (again), evryone.

25 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:49:06pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

You're painting with too broad a brush ["conservative Christian-supremaicst] again.

No, I'm not, and I never have, either. You're just oversensitive and over-willing for a chance to feel discriminated against, when you're not.

Breivik is a 100% self-identified "cultural conservative", "conservative revolutionary" who believes Christians worldwide, from the US to Central/South America to Africa to Serbia *must RULE*. His favored authors are overwhelmingly American social/cultural über-conservatives.

I just spent much of yesterday defending "fundamentalist Christians" from being wrongly tarred by your precious broad brush plea, because it gives a totally wrong connotation.

Read the manifesto and re-watch the videos. That's conservative Christian-supremacy in action.

So you'll have to set aside that tattered old broad brush card and cry me a frackin' river if the phrase "conservative Christian-supremacist" dings your own delicate sensibilities. I'm not going to stop using it.

26 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:49:23pm

I like how the one girl shelters her food and they all clean off their tables before rushing outside.

27 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:50:44pm

re: #18 Varek Raith

History moves in cycles. Notice how recently the militia movement started up again? We will soon forget and it'll start again.
Fun.

Well, maybe some people will forget.

Some of us will never, EVER forget. It's why they resent us, so. Oh well...

28 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:51:17pm

Terrorists are cool, so long as they're white, "No, not a Christian but at least not a Muslim either :derp:", nationalists who murder liberals and socialists.
///

Gawt. Damn. It. The sentiment is making me very angry. As if the whole thing weren't ugly enough, we have the wingnut-o-sphere pimping this bullshit, just as I suspected they would.

29 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:51:18pm

re: #27 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Well, maybe some people will forget.

Some of us will never, EVER forget. It's why they resent us, so. Oh well...

Indeed.

30 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:51:41pm

re: #26 Conservative Moonbat

I like how the one girl shelters her food and they all clean off their tables before rushing outside.

Food is Life.

31 Kragar  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:52:32pm

re: #22 ggt

"It's not what you say, it's how you say it"

---anonymous/unknown

There are some people who, if they don't already know, you can't tell 'em.
- Yogi Berra

32 Lidane  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:54:29pm

re: #16 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They're so wrapped up in calling Muslims and Liberals inhuman monsters they can't even see what they've become.

Who needs self-awareness when they have Fox News and right-wing talk radio egging them on?

Mainstream conservative "writers" like Coulter, Beck, Limbaugh, Savage, Buchanan, and D'Souza have spent decades beating the drum of liberals being evil, tyrannical, inhuman assholes who want to convert your family to some sort of mythical secular Marxist Islamic paganism (OOGA BOOGA) where gays and minorities and Jews and women are equal to men and where Christianity and Western Civilization as we know it are in danger of being eradicated.

They've fostered a siege mentality that the far right nutjobs like Geller, Spencer and the "counter-jihad" bloggers fed on after 9/11, taking all that paranoia and hate to its logical conclusion in the form of Breivik.

I don't know why anyone is surprised by this. It's been coming for ages.

33 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:55:04pm

re: #22 ggt

"It's not what you say, it's how you say it"

---anonymous/unknown

"I could talk like Mother Theresa all day long. Won't stop the bigots from manufacturing controversies about all my whitey tapes and Kenyan Muslim birth certificates."

-- OC/SP

34 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:56:54pm

re: #32 Lidane

Who needs self-awareness when they have Fox News and right-wing talk radio egging them on?

Mainstream conservative "writers" like Coulter, Beck, Limbaugh, Savage, Buchanan, and D'Souza have spent decades beating the drum of liberals being evil, tyrannical, inhuman assholes who want to convert your family to some sort of mythical secular Marxist Islamic paganism (OOGA BOOGA) where gays and minorities and Jews and women are equal to men and where Christianity and Western Civilization as we know it are in danger of being eradicated.

They've fostered a siege mentality that the far right nutjobs like Geller, Spencer and the "counter-jihad" bloggers fed on after 9/11, taking all that paranoia and hate to its logical conclusion in the form of Breivik.

I don't know why anyone is surprised by this. It's been coming for ages.

This needs to be updinged 100 times.

35 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:56:55pm

this is the greatest twitterer in Portland [Link: twitter.com...]


just posts awesome nuggets from PDX police scanners

36 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:58:01pm

re: #32 Lidane

some of us are inhuman assholes, but we're way too busy to be all convertin' people. Easier to sell shit to them instead! :D

37 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:58:03pm

re: #35 WindUpBird

this is the greatest twitterer in Portland [Link: twitter.com...]

just posts awesome nuggets from PDX police scanners

Lol

"A transient named Aquarius just took money off the counter and ran."
38 okonkolo  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 10:58:32pm

The worst part is watching that woman in the first video walk out the front door knowing what's about to happen.

39 Lidane  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:00:42pm

re: #36 WindUpBird

some of us are inhuman assholes, but we're way too busy to be all convertin' people. Easier to sell shit to them instead! :D

Which is why I'm an atheist trying to get an MBA.

I've got no interest in converting you to my way of thinking. I just happen to be enough of a capitalist pig to want to make money, but without completely losing my soul in the process.

40 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:04:49pm

Dear Wingnut hate bloggers,

As far as I am concerned, if you make excuses for Anders, you might as well be making excuses for Osama. You are the enemy of every civilized nation on earth, and I wouldn't so much as piss in your mouth if your teeth were on fire. Fuck you.

41 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:07:20pm

re: #40 Slumbering Behemoth

...I wouldn't so much as piss in your mouth if your teeth were on fire.

Thanks for the vivid imagery.

42 ProMayaLiberal  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:09:41pm

re: #37 Varek Raith

Or this one:

On the scanner just now: "He's brandishing a mop handle... They think he's high." #mrclean

No, really? What was your first clue?

43 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:11:54pm

re: #41 goddamnedfrank

A curse I reserve for the truly despicable. This incident, and the apologists that have followed in it's wake, has really been fucking with my emotions.

44 ProMayaLiberal  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:13:21pm

Or this little gem:

On the scanner just now: "I've found a swarm of bees, queen bee attached. Can I get a number for a beekeeper?" #stingop #buzzfuzz

This situation would have me running for the hills. I hate bees.

They like to sting me for some reason.

45 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:13:36pm

re: #43 Slumbering Behemoth

A curse I reserve for the truly despicable. This incident, and the apologists that have followed in it's wake, has really been fucking with my emotions.

I hear you. I may not look it exactly, but I'm thoroughly pissed off.

46 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:14:33pm

The Daily Show's opening monologue tonight was truly epic. And on-topic, to boot.

[Link: gawker.com...]

47 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:16:59pm

The right wing is throwing itself repeatedly on its own sword lately. I don't think it will have the effect of defusing the madness, but I have hope it will peel off some moderate supporters who, until now, hadn't quite realized just how depraved the right has become.

If recent events don't do the trick, nothing will, i'm afraid.

48 Gepetto  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:22:52pm

re: #39 Lidanere: #39 Lidane

Which is why I'm an atheist trying to get an MBA.

I've got no interest in converting you to my way of thinking. I just happen to be enough of a capitalist pig to want to make money, but without completely losing my soul in the process.


an atheist shouldn't concern themselves with their soul?

49 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:22:59pm

Have any of the Israel experts around here been following the left wing protests over there? Do they have any chance of unseating Bibi?

50 makeitstop  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:24:38pm
51 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:25:08pm

re: #49 Conservative Moonbat

Have any of the Israel experts around here been following the left wing protests over there? Do they have any chance of unseating Bibi?

Only a little, and no idea, really, but I'm betting on him riding this out.

52 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:28:37pm

re: #49 Conservative Moonbat

Have any of the Israel experts around here been following the left wing protests over there? Do they have any chance of unseating Bibi?

I'm hoping my girl Tzipi and Kadima will pull through again but it's a ways off, no?

53 Alexzander  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:28:45pm

re: #49 Conservative Moonbat

Have any of the Israel experts around here been following the left wing protests over there? Do they have any chance of unseating Bibi?

Not an expert but I've been following it a little. I suspect it will amount to little.

54 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:29:47pm

re: #45 goddamnedfrank

I dig it.

What's really grinding my gears...

After the 9/11 terrorist attacks, people all over the world (aside from those murder loving dickholes who handed out candy) displayed an outpouring of empathy and love for us Americans and what we were going through. That's something I'll never forget.

And with this horrify terrorist attack in Norway, I can feel nothing but empathy and love for the Norwegians and what they are going through right now.

And these wingnuts who are making excuses, poo-poohing the obvious connections, and spewing that the people of Norway brought this on themselves? They might as well be handing out candy. Fuck them.

55 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:41:34pm

re: #47 Fozzie Bear

The right wing is throwing itself repeatedly on its own sword lately. I don't think it will have the effect of defusing the madness, but I have hope it will peel off some moderate supporters who, until now, hadn't quite realized just how depraved the right has become.

If recent events don't do the trick, nothing will, i'm afraid.

Hate to say this, but... ...

Thing is, like you were saying in the thread below, we have seen a lot worse than these dumb bigots. But we also know exactly what they are capable of, too. So anything they come with will only be new to the types who have never taken the time to educate themselves on just what these people are. Happy to say, I don't have the luxury of that boat.

56 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:42:09pm

Grrr... this is why I avoided the interwebs for a few days there. It's fucking with my emotions. Better I log off and vent my frustrations on some video game than do it here.

Peace out. Thanks to Charles, Oslogin, and everyone else for keeping us informed on this matter.

57 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:44:24pm

re: #56 Slumbering Behemoth

Aw dude, I didn't even get to post High-Drama 80s KB Clip of the Day..

Ah well, catch you later.

58 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:46:39pm

re: #14 ggt

I thought it already had happened here?

Well, it keeps happening here. Every generation, never fails.

59 Kragar  Wed, Jul 27, 2011 11:48:00pm

re: #57 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Aw dude, I didn't even get to post High-Drama 80s KB Clip of the Day..

Ah well, catch you later.

60 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 12:00:41am

re: #59 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh yeah that's a good one for karaoke.

I'm working on this one for next time I go (which could be next week, could be next year at this point :/)

Your High-Drama 80s Keyboards Clip of the Day

61 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 12:45:19am

I have a bad feeling about this. The reaction from the hate-right, especially the expressions of approval and their sources, has been truly shocking. Breivik is not a lone nut, he is part of a mass movement with political clout, media friends, and millions of adherents. This movement has been refining its rationale and working itself into a frenzy for decades now. They aren't all violent or even potentially violent. In fact, very few of them are as a percentage. That is still a lot of people. One striking thing about Breivik is the amount of planning and resources he put into it. A great many people in this country have similar abilities and resources. It only takes a few.

62 Kragar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 12:56:07am

re: #61 Shiplord Kirel

I have a bad feeling about this. The reaction from the hate-right, especially the expressions of approval and their sources, has been truly shocking. Breivik is not a lone nut, he is part of a mass movement with political clout, media friends, and millions of adherents. This movement has been refining its rationale and working itself into a frenzy for decades now. They aren't all violent or even potentially violent. In fact, very few of them are as a percentage. That is still a lot of people. One striking thing about Breivik is the amount of planning and resources he put into it. A great many people in this country have similar abilities and resources. It only takes a few.

Beck and them keep talking about their 10% (which they say is a new idea, lol, hardly). I wouldn't put it past someone in the US to think they need to emulate Breivik.

63 Spocomptonite  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 12:57:14am
64 Kragar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:00:32am

re: #63 Spocomptonite

Boogity boogity boogity Amen.

Thats nothing. You obviously haven't seen a Russian Disco act.

65 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:07:35am

re: #63 Spocomptonite

Boogity boogity boogity Amen.

Oh that was wonderful. Lol! I love the Gregory Brothers.

BTW, it's hard to tell from their clips but Sister Sarah Gregory can seriously sing her tail off.

66 Spocomptonite  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:17:39am

re: #64 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I prefer Russian Army dances. One of the moves is using their own leg as a rifle. No wonder Pavlov was able to keep the Nazis out of his house.

67 Spocomptonite  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:21:45am

re: #65 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Oh that was wonderful. Lol! I love the Gregory Brothers.

BTW, it's hard to tell from their clips but Sister Sarah Gregory can seriously sing her tail off.

Oh yeah, they all can, but especially her. I like this one of her.

68 dell*nix  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:28:57am

Too Late by King Oliver played by the Bratislava Hot Serenader.

69 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:29:05am

re: #63 Spocomptonite

Boogity boogity boogity Amen.


I really like the way he uses a benediction to get in some product placement.

Reminds me of how Jesus put in plugs for the money changers with the best interest rates when visiting the Temple.

70 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:31:22am

re: #67 Spocomptonite

Oh yeah, they all can, but especially her. I like this one of her.

That one's good. Have you heard her on "100th Sight" in one of her other groups, Kapluckus? I think it's iTunes purchase only, unfortunately, but she's really got the pipes on that one. It was the basis for their Auto Tune the News #6, which happens to be my favorite of all of them.

Lol I laughed for *days* when I first saw this one. Now that Michele Bachmann is a presidential candidate it's exponentially funny

71 Spocomptonite  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:35:43am

re: #69 ralphieboy

I really like the way he uses a benediction to get in some product placement.

Reminds me of how Jesus put in plugs for the money changers with the best interest rates when visiting the Temple.

And Jesus went into the temple racetrack of God, and cast out all of them who sold and bought in the temple track, and overthrew the tables sponsored team trucks of the moneychangers drivers, and the seats of them that sold doves beer and popcorn,

And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a dengarage of thievesproduct placement.

72 Spocomptonite  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:40:00am

re: #70 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That one's good. Have you heard her on "100th Sight" in one of her other groups, Kapluckus? I think it's iTunes purchase only, unfortunately, but she's really got the pipes on that one. It was the basis for their Auto Tune the News #6, which happens to be my favorite of all of them.

Lol I laughed for *days* when I first saw this one. Now that Michele Bachmann is a presidential candidate it's exponentially funny

[Video]

This is the only way I can watch speeches by Bachmann and Boehner.

73 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:40:37am

re: #71 Spocomptonite

Would not happen. God loves NASCAR and blesses those who pursue it in his name and in the name of Jesus Christ.

And sends them really hot wives.

74 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:44:25am

re: #72 Spocomptonite

This is the only way I can watch speeches by Bachmann and Boehner.

This is cute

75 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:50:35am

re: #50 makeitstop

This is comforting.
///

“Some people believe we have taken our eye off the ball when it comes to domestic right-wing extremists”

Now is the time to reintroduce the DHS report. With new teeth. Fangs, even.

76 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:54:43am

re: #75 Sergey Romanov

Now is the time to reintroduce the DHS report. With new teeth. Fangs, even.


Even if somebody in America goes Breivik on us, we will face a wall of denial, even if he publishes a 1,500-page manifesto citing Fox news, Jesus and Robert Spencer as his inspiration, they will all deny and distance themselves.

And pull out the Talking Point:

Tur Christians do not commit acts of terror because Jesus forbids violence.

But Muhammad demands violence. In fact, Muslims who simply live peacefully and do not commit acts of terror are not true Muslims...

77 Spocomptonite  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:54:55am

re: #73 ralphieboy

Would not happen. God loves NASCAR and blesses those who pursue it in his name and in the name of Jesus Christ.

And sends them really hot wives.

Oh that's right I forgot women's place in the bible.

Genesis chapter 2:

And Adam was tasked with naming all the animals. But lo, it made him hungry. "Lord God," prayed Adam, "Please deliver unto me a sandwich"
God, knowing he would probably have more important thing to do in the future besides make sandwiches for Adam thrice daily, went about creating the kitchen and put a woman in it. She made Adam a sandwich and it was good.

///

78 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:56:40am

re: #77 Spocomptonite

Is this from that Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible? //

80 Spocomptonite  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 1:59:10am

re: #78 Sergey Romanov

Is this from that Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible? //

No, Joseph Smith's version had an entire catering staff of women.

81 Kragar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:00:09am

re: #75 Sergey Romanov

Now is the time to reintroduce the DHS report. With new teeth. Fangs, even.

Speaking of which...

Author of ‘Anti-Christian’ DHS Report on Right-Wing Extremism is a Conservative, Anti-Choice Gun Owner

Now, the main author of the DHS report, who left his job after the fallout from the controversy made it “difficult to get any work accomplished,” is speaking out. Daryl Johnson tells California State University’s Brian Levin that he is a gun-owning, anti-choice Republican Mormon who started work on the report under the Bush Administration. And he’s worried that the manufactured controversy over the report continues to hinder DHS’s ability to combat violent right-wing extremism:

82 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:00:17am

re: #80 Spocomptonite

No, Joseph Smith's version had an entire catering staff of women.

:D

83 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:01:58am

re: #81 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But he is a Mormon!

84 Kragar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:02:24am

re: #77 Spocomptonite

Oh that's right I forgot women's place in the bible.

Genesis chapter 2:

And Adam was tasked with naming all the animals. But lo, it made him hungry. "Lord God," prayed Adam, "Please deliver unto me a sandwich"
God, knowing he would probably have more important thing to do in the future besides make sandwiches for Adam thrice daily, went about creating the kitchen and put a woman in it. She made Adam a sandwich and it was good.

///

He first made Lilith, who said unto Adam "Get off your ass and make your own damn sandwich."

85 Kragar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:03:00am

re: #83 Sergey Romanov

He's not even Christian!!!
//

OK, I'm off to bed.

86 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:03:11am

"The subject had become too politically charged. As a result, DHS leaders adopted a risk adverse approach toward this issue. Perhaps they thought it was a matter of organizational preservation."

Fuck. Cowardly. "Leaders".

87 Winny Spencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:03:12am

I listened to Michael Savage yesterday. He, unlike most wingnuts, has seemingly come to his senses vis-à-vis Breivik.

Labels him a "radical Christian terrorist".

THE CHRISTIAN TERRORIST: THE GREATEST ENEMY IS THE ENEMY WITHIN

All written in caps....

88 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:06:01am

re: #87 Winny Spencer

Wow. The most sensible thing Savage has ever written.

89 Spocomptonite  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:07:25am

re: #84 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

He first made Lilith, who said unto Adam "Get off your ass and make your own damn sandwich."

No, that was Noah's wife who after 40 days of sandwich making and dealing with the two male unicorn that were humping everything's legs, just couldn't take it anymore.

90 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:08:21am

re: #84 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

He first made Lilith, who said unto Adam "Get off your ass and make your own damn sandwich."

Hahahah so true. Love that gurl.

91 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:10:06am

For those of you who don't think that right-wing terrorism is alive and well inside the United States, here's a news story from just yesterday:

Molotov Cocktail Hurled Through McKinney Planned Parenthood

MCKINNEY (CBSDFW.COM) – Someone hurled a glass bottle topped with a flaming rag and filled with diesel fuel through the front door of the McKinney Planned Parenthood offices just before 10 p.m. Tuesday, a spokeswoman said.

The attack left shards of glass littered in front of the office at 1720 Eldorado Parkway and charred the metal door, but Planned Parenthood staffers hurriedly cleaned the mess and still saw patients Wednesday.

“Since we’re seeing patients today and trying to do repair and cleanup as fast as possible, you may not get an idea of the damage done if you go by there today,” said Holly Morgan, spokeswoman for Planned Parenthood of North Texas.

The Molotov cocktail failed to make it into the actual clinic and no staffers or patients were there, Morgan said.

Though the McKinney location has been the center of controversy in the area since it opened in 2008, Morgan said the attack was unprecedented – none of the 28 north Texas locations have suffered something like this.

And though the McKinney Police Department still has not identified a motive, Morgan said the arson is even more upsetting because the targeted location does not offer abortion services.

“It’s really unfortunate because that site only provides preventative care,” she said. “But until we know from the police, until they figure out what happened, we can’t really say what the motivation was.”

The McKinney location offers preventive services such as breast and pelvic exams, as well as birth control, diabetes screenings, sexually transmitted infection tests, pregnancy testing and emergency contraception. News Radio KRLD reported picketers at the location earlier in the day.

McKinney police has not identified a suspect.

“Ninety-six to 97 percent of what we do –and that’s an audited number – every year for our patients is preventative health care. It’s breast and cervical cancer screening and well women visits,” Morgan said.

“We even give flu shots.”

92 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:11:10am

re: #87 Winny Spencer

Michael Savage is the only talk show host I have ever heard that screams at his callers when he agrees with them. Heh.
And morning honcos.

93 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:17:24am

re: #87 Winny Spencer

Will Savage listeners savage Savage?

94 Winny Spencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:18:13am

re: #88 Sergey Romanov

Wow. The most sensible thing Savage has ever written.

Over the subsequent two hours, he proceeded to defend his view against complaints from his callers. I was quite amazed. However, I'm sure that come Monday he'll be railing against the NWO and the vermin in the media again.

95 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:18:20am

re: #93 Sergey Romanov

Will Savage listeners savage Savage?

Dont be silly, savage...

96 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:22:02am
97 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:28:58am

re: #96 Cannadian Club Akbar

Alex Trebek-Crime Fighter!!!


AT pinning them down: "For $200: you have this right, but if you give up this right, anything you say can be used against you in a court of law!"

98 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:30:36am

re: #97 ralphieboy

AT pinning them down: "For $200: you have this right, but if you give up this right, anything you say can be used against you in a court of law!"

99 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:32:48am

re: #97 ralphieboy

AT pinning them down: "For $200: you have this right, but if you give up this right, anything you say can be used against you in a court of law!"

What is the right to remain silent?

100 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:34:20am

re: #99 Varek Raith

What is the right to remain silent?

You should invoke that right a little more.
///

101 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:35:20am

re: #100 Cannadian Club Akbar

You should invoke that right a little more.
///

I will when ralphieboy coughs up the 200 bucks he owes me.

102 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:37:39am

re: #101 Varek Raith

I will when ralphieboy coughs up the 200 bucks he owes me.

He's gonna screw you on the Euro conversion.
/

103 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:39:08am

Pat Condell, whom Breivik had named as his "favorite comedian", comments:

104 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:40:20am

re: #101 Varek Raith

I will when ralphieboy coughs up the 200 bucks he owes me.


Alex owes you that money...

105 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:41:13am

re: #103 000G

Pat Condell, whom Breivik had named as his "favorite comedian", comments:

[Video]

I can't stand Condell on a purely physiognomic level. His mimics, expression of his face - disgusts me. And that is even before he starts to speak.

106 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:41:20am

re: #87 Winny Spencer

re: #88 Sergey Romanov

re: #93 Sergey Romanov

See the top comments from the YouTube page:

I love savage.. but he fucked up....

big time.
beefking69er 1 day ago 11

Savage: "Yes, you're right. They [Westboro Baptist Church] are Christians."

Okay, then by that standard, if you're just going to ignore how people flatly depart from scripture, disobey so much of it, and merely say they're Christian, then don't stop there.

Paris Hilton, by that standard, is a Christian. Hey, she wears a cross.

It's like we're not bothering at all to see what scripture has to say and accepting like dummies at face value anyone who calls themselves "Christian".
highwind8124 21 hours ago 6

107 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:43:38am

BTW, with a surprisde today I found at GoV something I agree with - they agree Breivik is not insane, but a sociopath.

108 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:45:13am

re: #94 Winny Spencer

Over the subsequent two hours, he proceeded to defend his view against complaints from his callers. I was quite amazed. However, I'm sure that come Monday he'll be railing against the NWO and the vermin in the media again.

Well, he did end his tirade with denouncing murder and all of that but the fight against cultural marxism, etc had to go on, of course.

109 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:45:21am

And BTW, check GoV out if you haven't seen the latest yet - Breivik actually left 2 comments there.

111 Winny Spencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:46:38am

re: #108 000G

Well, he did end his tirade with denouncing murder and all of that but the fight against cultural marxism, etc had to go on, of course.

And lambasting the media coverage of Winehouse's death, a sentiment which I incidentally can't disagree with.

112 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:47:12am

re: #104 ralphieboy

Alex owes you that money...


In Canadian dollars...

113 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:48:25am

re: #107 Sergey Romanov

BTW, with a surprisde today I found at GoV something I agree with - they agree Breivik is not insane, but a sociopath.

They should be careful with that line of argument. There are an awful lot of people who go along with his views.

114 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:49:06am

re: #108 000G

Well, he did end his tirade with denouncing murder and all of that but the fight against cultural marxism, etc had to go on, of course.

Pat Condell said much the same thing, but at least he made it clear that it should be done openly, peacefully and democratically.

115 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:51:34am

re: #114 ralphieboy

Pat Condell said much the same thing, but at least he made it clear that it should be done openly, peacefully and democratically.

I liked his freedom of speech points. But I always defend freedom of speech, unless it is calling for violence.

116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:54:31am

re: #115 Cannadian Club Akbar

But, I agree with Sergey; I can't get past his voice and mannerisms. Can't listen to him even when I agree with him.

Have tried three videos... haven't made it more than a minute and a half of one.

117 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:56:46am

re: #116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

If you hate his voice you must hate the Orbitz gum commercials.
///

118 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 2:59:19am

re: #48 Gepetto

re: #39 Lidane


an atheist shouldn't concern themselves with their soul?

Atheists should never have to have someone else's theological concern trolling hung around their neck.

Let the religious people worry about their own supposed souls.

119 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:03:02am

re: #118 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

One can be an athiest and still believe in an afterlife, just not the one descrivbed in the Bible or any other holy scriptures.

120 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:05:00am

re: #119 ralphieboy

One can be an athiest and still believe in an afterlife, just not the one descrivbed in the Bible or any other holy scriptures.

We really need two different words.

Atheist as in meaning not believing in a god, but still believing in the supernatural, is a rather meaningless category. There is no difference, to me, a 'hard' atheist, between believing in the supernatural of any sort and believing in god. They're the exact same thing.

Skeptic would have been good, if those fucking AGW-denier assholes hadn't contaminated the term. That 'bright' stuff I really don't like.

121 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:06:25am

re: #120 Obdicut

reminds us again that any discussion of religion is going to peter out into a definition of subjective terms and experiences, which is why we can use religion as a basis for personal morals, but not as a basis of law or government.

122 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:07:05am

re: #119 ralphieboy

One can be an athiest and still believe in an afterlife, just not the one descrivbed in the Bible or any other holy scriptures.

Yah but an atheist's own beliefs are not an imposition from or by anyone else. Tmk, atheists aren't beholden to anyone's dogma. (Well, except the dogmatic atheists, but those types typically wouldn't be believers in souls, afterlives or the like.)

123 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:08:31am

re: #121 ralphieboy

reminds us again that any discussion of religion is going to peter out into a definition of subjective terms and experiences, which is why we can use religion as a basis for personal morals, but not as a basis of law or government.

Or, let it just be the basis of one's own lifestyle choice.

124 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:09:28am

aw hell...

[Link: www.dailymotion.com...]

125 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:10:11am

re: #119 ralphieboy

One can be an athiest and still believe in an afterlife, just not the one descrivbed in the Bible or any other holy scriptures.

It's not theoretical either, I know such a person, he says there's no God, but there is a soul. He's like a total crackpot though. (I don't count Buddhists as atheists.)

126 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:12:43am

re: #124 ralphieboy

aw hell...

[Link: www.dailymotion.com...]

Haha

127 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:13:09am

re: #125 Sergey Romanov

The first use of the word 'athiest' was by the Romans, and among its uses was for the Christians. To the Romans, it meant 'denying our specific gods'.

Believing in absolutely nothing supernatural, not even as a possible category, is definitely different than simply someone who's decided the monotheistic god doesn't exist for whatever reason, but may still believe in other supernatural things.

I have a friend who disbelieves in god because of the amount of evil and pain in the world, but still believes in ghosts and whatnot. Confuses me.

128 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:13:20am

re: #125 Sergey Romanov

It's not theoretical either, I know such a person, he says there's no God, but there is a soul. He's like a total crackpot though. (I don't count Buddhists as atheists.)

So, what are his beliefs on what happens to the soul after one dies?

129 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:13:45am

re: #125 Sergey Romanov

It's not theoretical either, I know such a person, he says there's no God, but there is a soul. He's like a total crackpot though. (I don't count Buddhists as atheists.)

I got no problem with a belief system that maintains that there is a part of us that continues to exist after the body dies, but does not believe in the Biblical God.

130 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:19:55am

re: #129 ralphieboy

Since nobody can even define the attributes of the biblical god in any sufficient way, the snarky side of me says that nobody actually believes in him. Or everyone believes in a different god.

131 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:20:54am

re: #129 ralphieboy

I got no problem with a belief system that maintains that there is a part of us that continues to exist after the body dies, but does not believe in the Biblical God.

I don't have a problem with any of them, either. Not even the obnoxiously proselytizing ones...so long as they keep it out of my personal space, I've no beef with them.

132 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:22:19am

re: #130 Obdicut

Since nobody can even define the attributes of the biblical god in any sufficient way, the snarky side of me says that nobody actually believes in him. Or everyone believes in a different god.

Ask 2 billion Christians, get 2 billion answers.

133 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:23:06am

re: #131 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I don't have a problem with any of them, either. Not even the obnoxiously proselytizing ones...so long as they keep it out of my personal space, I've no beef with them.

I was at a mall years ago. Some guy was playing a video game, minding his own business. Another guy walked up to him and asked, "Have you been saved"? Dude said, "Yea, from people like you". Funny.

134 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:26:45am

re: #128 Cannadian Club Akbar

So, what are his beliefs on what happens to the soul after one dies?

No idea, didn't dig that deep. His arguments don't make much sense. They're like "but it would be unjust if there was no afterworld". As I said, he's a crackpot: a Commie, antisemite, Holocaust denier, Katyn denier, 9/11 truther, FSB bombings truther, moonlanding hoaxer... You name it - he's got it.

135 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:28:13am

re: #133 Cannadian Club Akbar

The thing is, I find those earnest attempts to save others almost sweet. Sure, it can be annoying, but when someone rings your doorbell to tell you about Jesus, they really are trying to do the nicest thing they know how, for you. Sure, it may be somewhat egoistically inspired, but what isn't? In the end, they think you'll face an unimaginably terrible fate if they don't lead you into the light, and a wonderful one if they do. If someone really is a true believer in salvation only through faith-- as in, it doesn't matter if someone is an awesome person, you have to have the right set of beliefs to get saved-- then I'd consider them kind of an asshole if they didn't spend time prosletyizing and saving people.

Now, what kind of god would create an arbitrary red-tape procedure to get into heaven, that's a different question-- but it's also a question those people often never ask themselves, or content themselves with the whole 'god works in mysterious ways' thing which is so handy for hand-waving things away.

In the end, I think that religion is solidly based in human biology, and I doubt we'll ever be rid of it or if it's even a good goal. What I do think can happen is that people can understand that, if there was an alternate realm, the supernatural, with absolutely no discernible outputs here on earth and no way of figuring out what any beings in that realm actually were like, that some of the arrogance of religion could be taken away. Those who think they know god's mind are the only ones who really scare me. Those who feel inspired by the love of god to do good works, and have those 'good' works be in line with basic human desires, they're fine by me.

136 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:28:43am

I see a certain consistency: we don't come from nothing, why should we then become nothing? But I see it as all speculation and perhaps wishful thinking.

137 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:30:37am

Apropos of nothing, there's a hilarious somethingawful thread going on:

[Link: forums.somethingawful.com...]

138 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:31:02am

[Link: year2083.blogspot.com...]

[Link: www.blogger.com...]
On Blogger Since June 2009
Profile Views (approximate) 33

139 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:31:20am

re: #135 Obdicut

I used to have Jehovah's Witnesses waiting at my door when I wold get home from work. Didn't have a problem until they asked to hold meetings at my house.

140 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:34:49am

And my random thought of the morning:

The GOP nutjobs somehow think that if we go into default and have another, larger financial meltdown that it will lead to more conservative, business-friendly laws.

I think they're forgetting that the last Great Depression lead to FDR and the New Deal.

141 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:35:21am

re: #137 Obdicut

er, warning of occasional tiny pictures of gross things on that page, by the way.

142 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:38:07am

re: #140 Obdicut

And my random thought of the morning:

The GOP nutjobs somehow think that if we go into default and have another, larger financial meltdown that it will lead to more conservative, business-friendly laws.

I think they're forgetting that the last Great Depression lead to FDR and the New Deal.


That was a thought of mine as well: that if one subscribes to the notion that the economic collapse is in fact inevitable, then it might just be better to bring it about now so we can get to work on recovering from it.

But the people who would precipitate are the last ones I want to put in charge of fixing it....

143 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:44:31am

re: #135 Obdicut

The thing is, I find those earnest attempts to save others almost sweet. Sure, it can be annoying, but when someone rings your doorbell to tell you about Jesus, they really are trying to do the nicest thing they know how, for you. Sure, it may be somewhat egoistically inspired, but what isn't? In the end, they think you'll face an unimaginably terrible fate if they don't lead you into the light, and a wonderful one if they do. If someone really is a true believer in salvation only through faith-- as in, it doesn't matter if someone is an awesome person, you have to have the right set of beliefs to get saved-- then I'd consider them kind of an asshole if they didn't spend time prosletyizing and saving people.

Now, what kind of god would create an arbitrary red-tape procedure to get into heaven, that's a different question-- but it's also a question those people often never ask themselves, or content themselves with the whole 'god works in mysterious ways' thing which is so handy for hand-waving things away.

In the end, I think that religion is solidly based in human biology, and I doubt we'll ever be rid of it or if it's even a good goal. What I do think can happen is that people can understand that, if there was an alternate realm, the supernatural, with absolutely no discernible outputs here on earth and no way of figuring out what any beings in that realm actually were like, that some of the arrogance of religion could be taken away.

Personally, I'm not sure about the biologicigal aspects. But I'm with you on the thought that getting rid of religion isn't going to happen, nor should it be, really.

If someone is in a spot to lose their religion then support them. If their beliefs aren't hurting anybody, support their right to them. It's really a personal matter, anyway.

There are plenty of people on my side of the aisle into reverse-evangelizing the religious & go head to head with them at least monthly on what that's presumptuous, not their place, and a dumb waste of time, anyway.

Those who think they know god's mind are the only ones who really scare me. Those who feel inspired by the love of god to do good works, and have those 'good' works be in line with basic human desires, they're fine by me.

In my exp, the "god told me" types can be some of the most violent, venal people in the world. They can be quite vicious.

144 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:46:06am

re: #140 Obdicut

And my random thought of the morning:

The GOP nutjobs somehow think that if we go into default and have another, larger financial meltdown that it will lead to more conservative, business-friendly laws.

I think they're forgetting that the last Great Depression lead to FDR and the New Deal.

Revolution/vanguard mentality is one thing. Ahistorical revolution/vanguard mentality is something even worse.

145 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:49:05am

A new page is coming up shortly. Danish nationalists are teaming up with Russian neo-Nazis.

146 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:51:20am

re: #145 Sergey Romanov

A new page is coming up shortly. Danish nationalists are teaming up with Russian neo-Nazis.

Name it White Russians with Danish.
//That's not funny....

147 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:52:43am

Image: LA-Thumb.jpg

The guy between Duke and MacDonald should feel uncomfortable, but I get a feeling he doesn't.

148 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:53:53am

re: #145 Sergey Romanov

A new page is coming up shortly. Danish nationalists are teaming up with Russian neo-Nazis.

What is it with these people who wallow in the identities of the losers, especially ones who killed off one's people in the process?

Dumb Confederates over here, Russian and Serbian neo-nazis over there, wtf.

149 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 3:54:57am

re: #147 Sergey Romanov

Image: LA-Thumb.jpg

The guy between Duke and MacDonald should feel uncomfortable, but I get a feeling he doesn't.

Do you know who that is? I don't recognize him.

150 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:03:10am

re: #149 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Do you know who that is? I don't recognize him.

Not yet.

But this guy attended the meeting:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

151 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:07:35am

The Indian guy is Alexander Jacob, author of (for example) [Link: www.amazon.com...]

152 researchok  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:10:08am

Morning, all

153 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:11:24am

re: #152 researchok

Good afternoon, tovarishch.

154 researchok  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:12:32am

Shtot a koi?

155 researchok  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:13:18am

I'll bet you have a Russian keyboard...

156 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:13:20am

re: #151 Sergey Romanov

What meeting was this?

157 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:13:46am

Wait, nevermind. I'll just wait for your page to post. Let us know, ok?

159 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:14:57am

re: #158 000G

[Link: www.thedailyshow.com...]

[Link: www.thedailyshow.com...]

FIAL2.

160 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:15:28am

re: #159 Cannadian Club Akbar

FIAL2.

WOW!!! FAIL COMMENT!!! I'M A DOUCHE!!!

161 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:17:10am

re: #155 researchok

I'll bet you have a Russian keyboard...

Оф coиrsе.

162 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:17:38am

re: #120 Obdicut

We really need two different words.

Atheist as in meaning not believing in a god, but still believing in the supernatural, is a rather meaningless category. There is no difference, to me, a 'hard' atheist, between believing in the supernatural of any sort and believing in god. They're the exact same thing.

Skeptic would have been good, if those fucking AGW-denier assholes hadn't contaminated the term. That 'bright' stuff I really don't like.

Ralphieboy's looking for "deist" - there is probably a godlike being (or possibly beings), unnamed and unknowable, but present nonetheless. That defnition, by the way, is one of the definitions of agnostic. I'll note the possible plural is a personal tweak of the definition.

I consider myself an agnostic. In my case, it's the 'skeptical' definition. That is "The existence of god(s) is neither proven nor unproven."

That leaves atheist alone with the definition of 'there is no god.'

I am aware that there are other definitions for each of those terms. However, these are how I use the terms myself.

163 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:17:59am

re: #157 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yeah, but the post won't be about the meeting, which was some crappy conference about European this or that, you know, usual Breivik stuff.

164 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:18:33am

re: #159 Cannadian Club Akbar

FIAL2.

Must be a big one. Hopefully with worthy liquor.

165 researchok  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:19:28am

re: #161 Sergey Romanov

Оф coиrsе.

Have you been following the Sergei Magnitsky story?

166 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:20:16am

re: #162 kirkspencer

Ralphieboy's looking for "deist" - there is probably a godlike being (or possibly beings), unnamed and unknowable, but present nonetheless. That defnition, by the way, is one of the definitions of agnostic. I'll note the possible plural is a personal tweak of the definition.

I consider myself an agnostic. In my case, it's the 'skeptical' definition. That is "The existence of god(s) is neither proven nor unproven."

That leaves atheist alone with the definition of 'there is no god.'

I am aware that there are other definitions for each of those terms. However, these are how I use the terms myself.

The existence of elves, Santa Clause, Hercules and the Matrix is neither proven or unproven. Should I get all agnostic about those, I wonder...

167 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:21:02am

re: #165 researchok

Mostly from news. I hear Medvedev is preparing some sort of a counter-list of Americans not allowed in Russia. (Oh, such a cruel punishment.)

168 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:22:19am

re: #165 researchok

Ok, that's a vial. VAIL!

169 researchok  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:22:22am

re: #167 Sergey Romanov

Mostly from news. I hear Medvedev is preparing some sort of a counter-list of Americans not allowed in Russia. (Oh, such a cruel punishment.)

I was wondering just how far this will escalate and if Putin is really playing by proxy.

And I wonder what they want to make this all go away.

170 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:23:32am

re: #169 researchok

I'm not really sure it will be of much significance...

171 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:23:43am

re: #162 kirkspencer


I consider myself an agnostic. In my case, it's the 'skeptical' definition. That is "The existence of god(s) is neither proven nor unproven."

That leaves atheist alone with the definition of 'there is no god.'

For me, the first sentence is problematic because 'god' is a totally undefined term. To me, it's like saying the existence of areagfhoallf is neither proven nor disproven.

172 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:24:25am

re: #171 Obdicut

Hmm. How about a very powerful unembodied mind that is a cause of the Universe?

173 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:24:52am

re: #125 Sergey Romanov

don't count Buddhists as atheists.

The average deity worshipping buddhist excluded: Why not?

174 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:25:13am

re: #167 Sergey Romanov

Mostly from news. I hear Medvedev is preparing some sort of a counter-list of Americans not allowed in Russia. (Oh, such a cruel punishment.)

Hey, I have a standing invitation to visit a friend of mine who lives in St. Petersberg. He's a bit of a cloud cuckoolander who pays little attention to anything going on in the real world.

May I ask you how rampant the antisemitism is in St. Petersberg? Or, in general, do you think there's any problem with a liberal Jewish dude visiting St. Petersberg?

175 researchok  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:25:32am

re: #170 Sergey Romanov

I'm not really sure it will be of much significance...

Just another pinprick,I guess.

That is one sport at which the Russians excel.

176 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:25:39am

re: #172 Sergey Romanov

Hmm. How about a very powerful unembodied mind that is a cause of the Universe?


Sounds like Deism to me.

177 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:25:39am

re: #171 Obdicut

For me, the first sentence is problematic because 'god' is a totally undefined term. To me, it's like saying the existence of areagfhoallf is neither proven nor disproven.

Hello, fellow ignostic.

178 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:25:45am

re: #173 000G

Because while they may lack a God, they have gods. That counts.

179 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:26:18am

re: #176 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

No. Deism specifically says that this mind is not involved in our current matters.

180 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:27:01am

re: #172 Sergey Romanov

Hmm. How about a very powerful unembodied mind that is a cause of the Universe?

You then need to define 'unembodied', and I'd note that any definition that says that it has no corporeal existence runs contrary to the definition of 'mind', so you'd need a new one for that as well. And 'cause' of the universe means that he does not exist as part of the universe, which would define him as not existing at all, or existing as the product of another universe, in which case the problem of definition starts all over again.

181 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:27:17am

re: #179 Sergey Romanov

No. Deism specifically says that this mind is not involved in our current matters.

Yeah but your definition did not specify that :)

182 researchok  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:27:26am

It's that time...

This week has been a grind.

Later, all

183 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:27:39am

re: #166 Sergey Romanov

The existence of elves, Santa Clause, Hercules and the Matrix is neither proven or unproven. Should I get all agnostic about those, I wonder...

Actually, the existence of Santa Claus is disproven. A set of measures of his existence exists. Each has been tested and shown false. (Brings gifts to all boys and girls - lumps of coal to the bad, but gifts nonetheless. Resides at the North Pole.)

God(s/ess/esses) is, by definition, immeasurable. There is no falsification test of his existence. You cannot prove he does not exist, nor can believers prove he does.

184 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:27:53am

re: #174 Obdicut

Hey, I have a standing invitation to visit a friend of mine who lives in St. Petersberg. He's a bit of a cloud cuckoolander who pays little attention to anything going on in the real world.

May I ask you how rampant the antisemitism is in St. Petersberg? Or, in general, do you think there's any problem with a liberal Jewish dude visiting St. Petersberg?

No idea, I suppose St. Petersburg being the cultural capital and all you can be more or less calm about this.

185 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:28:11am

I wish there were a better term for "don't know, don't care-ist".

Or, "none of these ideas or theologies move me-ist" lol

186 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:29:50am

re: #180 Obdicut

No definition can be complete, so I think this one should do the trick. Is not comparable to ifhoeihrg or куепз орук рпзук.

187 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:30:14am

re: #183 kirkspencer

Actually, the existence of Santa Claus is disproven. A set of measures of his existence exists. Each has been tested and shown false. (Brings gifts to all boys and girls - lumps of coal to the bad, but gifts nonetheless. Resides at the North Pole.)

God(s/ess/esses) is, by definition, immeasurable. There is no falsification test of his existence. You cannot prove he does not exist, nor can believers prove he does.

Poor Santa!

I like Santa.

188 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:30:31am

re: #185 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Atheist.

What, tainted you say? Same as liberal, so what.

189 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:31:47am

My grandson, moments after the horrific "genital mutilation" event that changed his life forever. Oh, teh trauma!

(I will never, NEVER pass up an opportunity to post cute baby pix)

190 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:32:12am

re: #188 Sergey Romanov

Atheist.

What, tainted you say? Same as liberal, so what.

Not tainted, just inaccurate.

191 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:32:33am

re: #187 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I remember that. Was awesome.

192 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:32:38am

re: #178 Sergey Romanov

Because while they may lack a God, they have gods. That counts.

Not all of them do. Deities in buddhism are optional.

193 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:33:06am

re: #189 Alouette

My grandson, moments after the horrific "genital mutilation" event that changed his life forever. Oh, teh trauma!

(I will never, NEVER pass up an opportunity to post cute baby pix)

Awww. Little sweetie.

194 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:33:49am

re: #188 Sergey Romanov

Atheist.

What, tainted you say? Same as liberal, so what.

heh.

I find it interesting that the most religiously militant are those who insist on a binary set: OUR god or NO god. NO god, or Superstitious Stupidity. You are with us, or you are the enemy.

Note that "most religiously militant" doesn't mean the polytheists don't go to war over religious belief. It's just less common.

195 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:34:36am

re: #183 kirkspencer

Actually, the existence of Santa Claus is disproven. A set of measures of his existence exists. Each has been tested and shown false. (Brings gifts to all boys and girls - lumps of coal to the bad, but gifts nonetheless. Resides at the North Pole.)

Uh, I fail to see how you disproved Santa. He still may reside at the North Pole, undetected, and you don't have evidence that none of the presents were brought by him.

God(s/ess/esses) is, by definition, immeasurable. There is no falsification test of his existence. You cannot prove he does not exist, nor can believers prove he does.

Again, ultimately nothing can be proved or disproved 100%. If we lower the plank, that one certainly can attempt to disprove God's existence through logical contradictions such a being would entail. Moreover, without even such a disproof one is still justifying in saying "there is no God", just as one is justified in saying "there is no particular god, such as Zeus", or "there is no Invisible Pink Unicorn", although we can't be sure.

This respect to the idea of "God" is totally artificial.

196 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:34:37am

re: #186 Sergey Romanov

No definition can be complete, so I think this one should do the trick. Is not comparable to ifhoeihrg or куепз орук рпзук.

But my point is the attempt at definition involves invoking things that are impossible, contradictory, and simply create another level of needed definition. The mystically religious are fine with impossible definitions so it's not really a barrier to them.

You're right in that unlike a nonsense word, god is something that has had attempts at definition. That was a bad analogy on my part.

197 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:35:03am

re: #192 000G

Not all of them do.

Who doesn't, and what percentage do they constitute?

198 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:36:11am

re: #184 Sergey Romanov

No idea, I suppose St. Petersburg being the cultural capital and all you can be more or less calm about this.

Thanks. I figured it was a pretty cool place. If I decide to go I'll have to ask you for tips on how to act around Russians.

199 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:37:50am

re: #198 Obdicut

Around what month you figure you might arrive?

200 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:39:56am

re: #197 Sergey Romanov

Who doesn't, and what percentage do they constitute?

I would dare to venture that most Zen buddhists (unlike, say, Vayrayana adherents) do not bother with deities and look at buddhist deities as being buddhist folklore unimportant to any actual religious dogma essential to their faith. But I do not know of any surveys or polls regarding the question.

201 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:40:29am

re: #194 kirkspencer

heh.

I find it interesting that the most religiously militant are those who insist on a binary set: OUR god or NO god. NO god, or Superstitious Stupidity. You are with us, or you are the enemy.

Note that "most religiously militant" doesn't mean the polytheists don't go to war over religious belief. It's just less common.

Speaking of religiously militant polytheists, I noticed in the manifesto ABB threw the Hindutva guys a bone by copy/pasting Shrinandan Vyas on about Hindu Kush.

Lol but ohhh my! Watch the tune change were Shrinandan Vyas were to ever go to Norway for more than a minute...the mountains will crumble to ashes, the rains will cease to fall, the rivers will all start flowing backwards, and whatnot.

Stupid ahole.

202 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:40:57am

re: #199 Sergey Romanov

Around what month you figure you might arrive?

If I decide to go it'll be October, most likely. My friend has said that's his favorite season in St. Petersberg, though he's actually Finnish by birth so that may mean it's fucking freezing.

203 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:44:42am

re: #180 Obdicut

You then need to define 'unembodied', and I'd note that any definition that says that it has no corporeal existence runs contrary to the definition of 'mind', so you'd need a new one for that as well. And 'cause' of the universe means that he does not exist as part of the universe, which would define him as not existing at all, or existing as the product of another universe, in which case the problem of definition starts all over again.

Let's drop the unembodied bit, many gods and even Gods - are quite embodied.

So how about, a powerful person that exists either prior and/or outside of our spacetime, and either caused and/or has power to control most or all aspects it.

204 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:46:08am

re: #202 Obdicut

Well, prepare you umbrella in any case :)

205 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:47:11am

re: #174 Obdicut

Hey, I have a standing invitation to visit a friend of mine who lives in St. Petersberg. He's a bit of a cloud cuckoolander who pays little attention to anything going on in the real world.

May I ask you how rampant the antisemitism is in St. Petersberg? Or, in general, do you think there's any problem with a liberal Jewish dude visiting St. Petersberg?

Or anti-Black stuff. St. Petersberg for Pascha has always been a destination of mine, but I can get anti-Black crap right here.

206 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:48:06am

re: #203 Sergey Romanov

So how about, a powerful person that exists either prior and/or outside of our spacetime, and either caused and/or has power to control most or all aspects it.

Well, if the claim is that they're bodied, then they can't exist outside our spacetime. They've got to have some unembodied existence to be able to pull that off-- unembodied by our standards, at least.

207 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:50:02am

re: #195 Sergey Romanov

Uh, I fail to see how you disproved Santa. He still may reside at the North Pole, undetected, and you don't have evidence that none of the presents were brought by him.

Again, ultimately nothing can be proved or disproved 100%. If we lower the plank, that one certainly can attempt to disprove God's existence through logical contradictions such a being would entail. Moreover, without even such a disproof one is still justifying in saying "there is no God", just as one is justified in saying "there is no particular god, such as Zeus", or "there is no Invisible Pink Unicorn", although we can't be sure.

This respect to the idea of "God" is totally artificial.

You moved the goal post on Santa regarding the North Pole. And what I can prove is that some children get no presents, and for some the provenance can be proven.

As to the "without such disproof" you are correct. One is still justified in saying zeus or invisible pink unicorn or flying spaghetti monster exists SO LONG AS you claim each is immeasurable. Claim a measure (and pink comes pretty close) that can be tested and that justification ends.

That said, I do not believe in Yahweh or Krishna or Mother Crone or the FSM. At the same time I cling to the superstitious belief that there is more to man than our four score and ten. So long as I do not force others to believe in my specific superstitious belief - and so long as others do not force to believe in theirs - no harm is done.

And in that last I have come to delight in the Wiccan version of the golden rule (an almost universal, by the way).
'An it harms none, do as you will.'

208 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:51:59am

re: #205 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Or anti-Black stuff. St. Petersberg for Pascha has always been a destination of mine, but I can get anti-Black crap right here.

Yeah, anti-Black stuff you risk to get anywhere here.

209 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:52:29am

re: #203 Sergey Romanov

Let's drop the unembodied bit, many gods and even Gods - are quite embodied.

Then you get the Trinity.

There should be a contest -- $1K to any lay person in ANY Trinitarian who can define the Trinity and have it make sense at the same time.

Good luck to 'em.

210 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:54:44am

Redo:

re: #203 Sergey Romanov

Let's drop the unembodied bit, many gods and even Gods - are quite embodied.

Then you get the Trinity.

There should be a contest -- $1K to any lay person in ANY Trinitarian who can define the Trinity and have it make sense at the same time.

211 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:56:07am

re: #207 kirkspencer

You moved the goal post on Santa regarding the North Pole.

I didn't move anything. He lives on the North Pole, he just can't be detected by our means.

And what I can prove is that some children get no presents, and for some the provenance can be proven.

Which doesn't prove that he gives no presents.

So, again, you can't disprove even Santa, much less other whimsical creations with built-in undisprovability.

As to the "without such disproof" you are correct. One is still justified in saying zeus or invisible pink unicorn or flying spaghetti monster exists SO LONG AS you claim each is immeasurable.

You kiddin' me. One is not justified in any of the things, no matter how those fairy tales and ad hoc creatures are defined.

212 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:58:24am

re: #210 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Redo:

Then you get the Trinity.

There should be a contest -- $1K to any lay person in ANY Trinitarian who can define the Trinity and have it make sense at the same time.

snicker. with the "make sense" line you could open it to ANY Trinitarian, lay or ordained.

213 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 4:59:08am

re: #208 Sergey Romanov

Yeah, anti-Black stuff you risk to get anywhere here.

Feh, well if I get some extra cash, then perhaps.

Otherwise, the big ROCOR (Russian Church Outside Russia) cathedral has a bookstore that I go to, once in a blue moon. Perhaps for a CD, or some incense, a book on saints, that sort of thing. I talk to the lay people and priests who work there - we have nice "how's the weather" conversations.

Everybody's nice, we make our purchases, and are on our way. It's fine. Very SF.

214 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:00:29am

re: #212 kirkspencer

snicker. with the "make sense" line you could open it to ANY Trinitarian, lay or ordained.

Ha, true. Although at least with most lay people, you don't risk being sermonized.

215 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:01:36am

re: #213 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Otherwise, the big ROCOR (Russian Church Outside Russia) cathedral

Argh it's early.

Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia

216 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:02:22am

re: #206 Obdicut

Well, if the claim is that they're bodied, then they can't exist outside our spacetime. They've got to have some unembodied existence to be able to pull that off-- unembodied by our standards, at least.

I think your mistake is that you're trying to reach all the conclusions inside the definition. That's not how it usually works. We define something and then fight it out on whether it makes sense or not, but we did define things beforehand and the definitions stand, even if they do lead to conclusion that such things can't exist.

Besides that, I disagree that it follows that they have to be unembodied, i.e. I haven't seen the justification of this claim. They may have supernatural powers, or they may have our universe before them like we have a page of paper before us, or they simply exist outside of any space (though maybe with their own timeline), etc. I would also like justification of the thesis that non-corporeal mind concept is incoherent.

217 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:05:34am

re: #216 Sergey Romanov

> or they simply exist outside of any space (though maybe with their own timeline)

OK, my mind wandered a bit here, scratch this (not because it's wrong, but because previous to this I was writing specifically about corporeal deities).

218 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:06:32am

re: #206 Obdicut

re: #216 Sergey Romanov

You guys might get a charge out of Process Theology. Post WW2 philosophy/theology that tries to synthesize what you all are kicking around.

Unfortunately, one of it's most famous proponents, David Ray Griffin is now an infamous 9/11 troother dumbfrack, but there are plenty more PTs in the field than just him.

If you're not familiar, check it out [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

219 mdey  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:07:09am

re: #216 Sergey Romanov

Sergey, what's up?

220 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:12:35am

re: #211 Sergey Romanov

I didn't move anything. He lives on the North Pole, he just can't be detected by our means.

Which doesn't prove that he gives no presents.

So, again, you can't disprove even Santa, much less other whimsical creations with built-in undisprovability.

You kiddin' me. One is not justified in any of the things, no matter how those fairy tales and ad hoc creatures are defined.

No, you have moved them. "Santa lives at the North Pole and delivers presents to all the boys and girls - the bad ones receive lumps of coal" was the definition. Not all boys and girls get presents, therefore Santa as defined does not exist.

If you wish to postulate a new entity you call Santa who lives at the North Pole (undetectably, forever) and who only delivers presents to SOME boys and girls -- the faithful -- you may do so. However, neither you nor anybody else believes this entity exists. If you wish to play the role of L. Ron Hubbard I am sure you can convince people, somewhere, but as of right now that is the situation.

I'll repeat myself. I have seen no proof that god(s) exist; certainly not entities directly interested in our behavior and existence, who need our belief and worship. On the other hand I cling to the 'superstitious' belief that there is more to man than four-score and ten.

I know that I do not know the Answer, and nobody has sufficiently proven they do either. Therefore, I doubt, and have faith in my doubt.

221 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:13:32am

bbiab

222 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:16:47am

re: #216 Sergey Romanov

To give an example re:defs: e.g. suppose I define a specific type of a God as an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being running our world.

Now, I would be the first to point out that such a God cannot exist because:

1. if we accept objective morality, there is an objective evil in this world;
2. an ooo deity can prevent this evil and does prevent this evil;
3. therefore a God defined as above doesn't exist.

Now, someone who accepts both the def and the fact of the existence of such a God might argue that it doesn't really follow, that for all we know, our world, while it has evil, is still the least evil out of all possible worlds, and all the evil that does exist leads to unexpected good consequences, so God is justified in maintaining such a world; to which I would retort that I could give examples of specific instances of arbitrary evil that cannot in principle lead to anything good (like serving an inspiration to good people or what not), to which he may further respond, and so forth. I.e. it would be a philosophical debate and maybe some conclusion or other would be reached, but even if it turned out that such a God's existence would entail a contradiction, it doesn't make the definition nonsensical, or such a God undefined.

223 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:17:00am

I'll check back for counterpoints in a bit. Have to go to (hopefully) get told I have a job, finally.

224 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:19:15am

re: #216 Sergey Romanov

I think your mistake is that you're trying to reach all the conclusions inside the definition. That's not how it usually works. We define something and then fight it out on whether it makes sense or not, but we did define things beforehand and the definitions stand, even if they do lead to conclusion that such things can't exist.

Yeah, sorry, I thought I meant that there's no definition that leads to a thing that could actually exist.

Besides that, I disagree that it follows that they have to be unembodied, i.e. I haven't seen the justification of this claim.

Depends what you mean by unembodied and embodied, I suppose. To me, if they exist outside our spacetime, then they're by definition unembodied at least in part.

I would also like justification of the thesis that non-corporeal mind concept is incoherent.

The concept of anything noncorporeal is incoherent. But specifically, we use 'mind' to describe a phenomenon arising from physical interactions. A noncorporeal mind seems to me to just be the phenomenon itself stripped of its causes, which is incoherent.

If what is meant is that a mind that is a phenomenon of interaction like our minds our, then again incorporeal is just some different physical plane of existence (that somehow can give input to our realm undetectably but not receive input from it.) and not really 'non-corporeal'.

225 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:21:33am

re: #216 Sergey Romanov

Anyway, my main point is that you never really get beyond the definition. It can go on endlessly like this, without us ever agreeing to a stable definition-- and not just because I'm being tetchy, but because there are real concerns about each of the definitions.

In some ways, it's a few of the same problems that string theory has, where it's only backed up by math-- except religion doesn't even have the math there. String theory has things that work out mathematically, but since they describe processes that by definition cannot be observed operating in areas that are inaccessible, it's moot.

226 Rocktheboat  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:21:46am

re: #1 ggt

Truly pointless video. It adds zip to the debate about rightwing extremism or about the islamization of western societies. Showing this video is like sneezing: you stand there with a wet tissue paper looking for a wastebasket. The Internet has become that wastebasket.

227 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:22:06am

re: #38 okonkolo

The worst part is watching that woman in the first video walk out the front door knowing what's about to happen.

Watching that video of the lady with the long blond hair walk out into the street... I thought about the photo of the police officers carrying/running with a severely wounded woman - with long blond matted with blood.

A terrible and evil attack.
And some of the "mainstream" RW bloggers/commentators saying they could "understand" the motivation (but not the method of ABB's actions) - those people are vile.

228 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:23:38am

re: #220 kirkspencer

No, you have moved them. "Santa lives at the North Pole and delivers presents to all the boys and girls - the bad ones receive lumps of coal" was the definition.

It was? I must have missed, and apparently you chose the definition to more neatly debunk it.

If you wish to postulate a new entity you call Santa who lives at the North Pole (undetectably, forever) and who only delivers presents to SOME boys and girls -- the faithful -- you may do so. However, neither you nor anybody else believes this entity exists.

Exactly. You're stuck on the issue of the definition of Santa for some reason, but that's not the point. This Santa you have provided a definition for - are we justified in saying that he doesn't exist? Of course. But why? We don't have proof that such a being does not exist, now, do we?

And that's exactly the point. If I am justified in rejecting Santa, without having proof of his non-existence, how is it that I can't say "there is no God" merely because of lack of evidence for God coupled with the inherent absurdity of the concept, even if I don't have proof of his non-existence?

229 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:24:16am

re: #219 mdey

All is calm in Baghdad.

230 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:26:31am

re: #226 Rocktheboat

Truly pointless video. It adds zip to the debate about rightwing extremism or about the islamization of western societies.

Is that the only possible point of the video?

231 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:28:55am

re: #87 Winny Spencer

I listened to Michael Savage yesterday. He, unlike most wingnuts, has seemingly come to his senses vis-à-vis Breivik.

Labels him a "radical Christian terrorist".

THE CHRISTIAN TERRORIST: THE GREATEST ENEMY IS THE ENEMY WITHIN

All written in caps...

I commend him in reaching this conclusion and saying it out in public.
Now, whose next from the talking heads?

232 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:29:09am

re: #226 Rocktheboat

Also, what is 'islamification of Western societies', please? Is that the process whereby the Christian right-wing in Western society slowly begins to resemble the Muslim right-wing in Arab countries?

233 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:29:31am
234 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:30:51am

re: #226 Rocktheboat

I didn't watch it. I would not have posted it. Ain't my blog.

235 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:31:55am

re: #233 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, this is gross.

There is a class of "untermenschen" in Cairo that have been processing the city's garbage for generation upon generation.

236 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:32:19am

re: #233 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Reminds me of some of the favelas of Brazil.

237 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:35:03am

re: #226 Rocktheboat

Truly pointless video. It adds zip to the debate about rightwing extremism or about the islamization of western societies.

Well no, what adds said "zip" is behavior like Breivik's, his associates and influences.

Don't want that kind of zip? Don't run around blowing up crap and shooting almost 100 people. Don't nurture and coddle people who do.

Showing this video is like sneezing: you stand there with a wet tissue paper looking for a wastebasket. The Internet has become that wastebasket.

Anyone can use excrement-based metaphors. For instance, the entire strapped up, violent, wing of conservative Christian-supremaicst proxy-murderers has become the waste material of humanity.

238 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:36:33am

re: #140 Obdicut

And my random thought of the morning:

The GOP nutjobs somehow think that if we go into default and have another, larger financial meltdown that it will lead to more conservative, business-friendly laws.

I think they're forgetting that the last Great Depression lead to FDR and the New Deal.

Haha, that brought a smile to my face.

239 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:38:00am

re: #235 Alouette

According to the article; these are Christians who chose to live there. Been there for hundreds of years.

But to me? White bread Murikan? Gross.

240 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:41:23am

Morning Lizardim.

re: #226 Rocktheboat

I would beg to differ. Seeing the video of the devastation hammers home the sobering reality of what happens when far right-wing rhetoric is taken to its logical end. Uncomfortable? Certainly. But it's like the photographs of Auschwitz from WWII; all of a sudden, the gravity of what has been done hits home in a new and powerful way.

241 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:44:35am

re: #224 Obdicut

Yeah, sorry, I thought I meant that there's no definition that leads to a thing that could actually exist.

That I can agree with (provisionally; again, it's a matter of a philosophical debate, and I stand on the atheistic side here, in that I think that the way God is usually defined does lead to contradictions that tend to either refute or decrease the probability of its existence).

Depends what you mean by unembodied and embodied, I suppose. To me, if they exist outside our spacetime, then they're by definition unembodied at least in part.

They may exist in their own spacetime, maybe there is even a whole hierarchy of Gods with their spacetimes (somewhat similar to what the Mormons have).

The concept of anything noncorporeal is incoherent.

I could agree that it is absurd, but why is it incoherent?

But specifically, we use 'mind' to describe a phenomenon arising from physical interactions. A noncorporeal mind seems to me to just be the phenomenon itself stripped of its causes, which is incoherent.

An extrapolation, by analogy. A mind not similar to ours in causes, but similar in certain effects. We could postulate the functioning regardless of the specific underlying causes. A just-so story, to be sure, but again, I don't know why it cannot be self-consistent/coherent. A non-corporeal existence could be defined through actions. For example, we may say that being C exists non-corporeally, it doesn't exist materially at any point of the universe, yet we may send a signal to C and will always get a response from C. Again, this may be against common sense, but I'm not sure it's incoherent.

242 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:47:52am

re: #226 Rocktheboat

I think your boat has a leak... of compassion and feelings.

243 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:50:17am

re: #241 Sergey Romanov

They may exist in their own spacetime, maybe there is even a whole hierarchy of Gods with their spacetimes (somewhat similar to what the Mormons have).

Right. But that just pushes the questions one step back, into questions about their spacetime. And in terms of their existence to us, all the original problems remain.


I could agree that it is absurd, but why is it incoherent?

Heh. Because there is no definition of incorporeal that makes sense. If it's used to mean things that cannot interact with the physical world in any way, then its existence doesn't matter and no attributes of it can ever be determined in any way. If its something that can interact with the world in a meaningful way, then it it's not incorporeal.

A mind not similar to ours in causes, but similar in certain effects.

Sure, but then it's a different sort of mind. That's what I mean. It doesn't fit our definition of mind, and you have to start defining the attributes of this similar, but different, mind.

244 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:51:24am

re: #233 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, this is gross.

{optimistic}: well, at least it's all in the bags, so there's at least a chance it could be more or less easily removed some day.

245 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:53:31am

re: #243 Obdicut

But that just pushes the questions one step back, into questions about their spacetime.

Sure, my point was that it's not longer a definitional problem.

Heh. Because there is no definition of incorporeal that makes sense. If it's used to mean things that cannot interact with the physical world in any way, then its existence doesn't matter and no attributes of it can ever be determined in any way. If its something that can interact with the world in a meaningful way, then it it's not incorporeal.

The last part is not obvious to me. Why an incorporeal entity cannot interact with the world through "supernatural" means?

246 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:56:33am

Also, there are 907034570979043 angels that can dance on the head of a pin. If you don't believe me, you can recount.
/

247 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:57:00am

re: #242 Ericus58

I think your boat has a leak... of compassion and feelings.

Seems like their compassion and feelings are reserved for the poor, sullied reputation of rightwing extremism. That's what I got from the post, anyway. I'm seeing that a lot in the aftermath of this atrocity.

248 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:58:33am

re: #245 Sergey Romanov

Sure, my point was that it's not longer a definitional problem.

It is in terms of how they exist or interact with our universe.

The last part is not obvious to me. Why an incorporeal entity cannot interact with the world through "supernatural" means?

What are supernatural means? If it means they're non-physical, then that first of all involves redefining the physical world. If it means that they're undetectable, then it's not possible for them to exist because interaction is something that's detectable. The definition problem then lies with 'supernatural means'.

What I'm saying is there's never a point where an axiomatic claim that contradicts, rather than simply adds to, an understanding of physical reality does not occur.

249 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:58:51am

re: #246 Sergey Romanov

Also, there are 907034570979043 angels that can dance on the head of a pin. If you don't believe me, you can recount.
/

I just recounted, and you're wrong.

/

250 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 5:59:31am

Republicans And Democrats Decry Each Other’s Nearly Identical Debt Limit Plans
I think I understand Obama's very public statement threatening to veto Boehner's plan. The Dems are providing cover for the Republicans from their wingnut base by pretending to oppose the bill. The two bills, once passed can now be reconciled since they're fairly similar. I assume they'll to this in the Senate,, House republicans are too unpredictable.

251 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:01:56am

Morning, all.
re: #245 Sergey Romanov

Sure, my point was that it's not longer a definitional problem.

The last part is not obvious to me. Why an incorporeal entity cannot interact with the world through "supernatural" means?

The preachers destroyed belief in the heavens, and now the physicists are undermining the 'corporeal world'. Granite is starting to require as much faith as cherubim.

253 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:03:21am

re: #250 Killgore Trout

Well, they definitely oppose the second portion of the bill, the poison pill part that carries the deeper cuts. But I agree that reconciliation should be the key.

254 Lidane  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:05:07am

We're all atheist in one form or another, IMO. If you consider yourself Christian, you don't believe in any of the Hindu gods, or in whichever deity a pagan invokes. If you're Muslim, you don't believe in any other god except Allah. Etc. I just took it one step further and decided that I didn't need to believe in or worship any deity. It's just not a part of my life.

As for the soul, I don't consider a soul to be some sort of out of body thing that will exist after I die. It's just that undefinable quality that makes a person who they are. It's their humanity. When I mentioned not losing my soul, I was talking about not losing who I am in the pursuit of my career.

255 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:09:13am

re: #248 Obdicut

It is in terms of how they exist or interact with our universe.

That's not necessary to put that in the definition, but we've been there already.

What are supernatural means? If it means they're non-physical, then that first of all involves redefining the physical world. If it means that they're undetectable, then it's not possible for them to exist because interaction is something that's detectable. The definition problem then lies with 'supernatural means'.

It's like the example with the being C. We don't have to postulate the exact means by which it causes a response to our signal to appear in the physical world, but such a response would be a brute fact, and moreover it would be quite reasonable to call it "supernatural", since, of course, any direct interaction of such a being with the physical world cannot be natural. Basically, it wills something, and this occurs in the physical world. The "willing" part is non-corporeal, the appearance part is physical, the bridge between them is unknown. Again, not a picture I would subscribe to in any case, but I don't see how it is self-inconsistent.

256 darthstar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:09:35am

Mornin' slackers.

257 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:10:21am

re: #249 Obdicut

I just recounted, and you're wrong.

/


The number is 3,14159265....

258 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:12:12am

re: #257 ralphieboy

The number is 3,14159265...

re: #246 Sergey Romanov

Also, there are 907034570979043 angels that can dance on the head of a pin. If you don't believe me, you can recount.
/

Obviously depends on the music--disco or mazurka?

259 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:12:43am

re: #258 Decatur Deb

Depends on the amount of liters.

260 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:13:20am

re: #255 Sergey Romanov


Again, not a picture I would subscribe to in any case, but I don't see how it is self-inconsistent.

I didn't say it was inconsistent, I said it involved redefining the physical world. The definition of the physical world doesn't allow for such a bridge.

261 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:13:56am

re: #260 Obdicut

I didn't say it was inconsistent, I said it involved redefining the physical world. The definition of the physical world doesn't allow for such a bridge.

Why?

262 darthstar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:15:56am

re: #246 Sergey Romanov

Also, there are 907034570979043 angels that can dance on the head of a pin. If you don't believe me, you can recount.
/

But how many angels actually will?

263 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:18:07am

re: #261 Sergey Romanov

Why?

Because that's what the definition of the physical world is, it's all about the interactions of physical things with each other. I guess if you have no real definition of the physical world to start with, or somehow manage to define it without defining it as the interaction of physical things, then it'd be okay.

So, the definition problem just moves to defining the physical world.

264 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:21:08am

re: #263 Obdicut

That reminds me of an ontological "proof" of god's existence, where it is proven through the very definition of god. Seems like you simply define "physical world" to exclude anything supernatural. Fine, but then we don't necessarily live in the physical world.

265 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:23:20am

re: #250 Killgore Trout

Republicans And Democrats Decry Each Other’s Nearly Identical Debt Limit Plans
I think I understand Obama's very public statement threatening to veto Boehner's plan. The Dems are providing cover for the Republicans from their wingnut base by pretending to oppose the bill. The two bills, once passed can now be reconciled since they're fairly similar. I assume they'll to this in the Senate,, House republicans are too unpredictable.

Yeah, I just saw a graphic that described the two plans, and I was looking at them trying to figure out Where's The Difference? Both plans get to the exact same place; one just stretches it out over a period of time.

266 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:26:08am

re: #264 Sergey Romanov

Seems like you simply define "physical world" to exclude anything supernatural.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by 'supernatural'.

Fine, but then we don't necessarily live in the physical world.

That depends what you mean by the physical world. We definitely live in the physical world in that it exists (leaving aside solipsism) and we can make observations about it. That there might be aspects to the world that we cannot observe and cannot measure is possible but moot, since it couldn't interact.

What I'm saying is that that in defining the physical world, one is necessarily just as interested in the causes of things as the things themselves, in fact, physics is more about causes than it is about things. So, when you say a will might cause something to appear in the physical world, that definition can't connect with a definition of the physical world unless you do address that cause.

267 darthstar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:27:04am

Holy fuck...Sergey, Obdi...you guys have been having this discussion for two hours. That's takes some corporeal cojones. All I can say is stop, dudes.

268 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:27:43am

re: #265 reine.de.tout

The main difference is political; the Republicans want to have this fight again, want to threaten default again in order to achieve cuts.

269 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:28:06am

re: #265 reine.de.tout

Lawhawk posted this yesterday...
[Link: lawhawk.blogspot.com...]

270 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:29:11am

re: #265 reine.de.tout

Yeah, I just saw a graphic that described the two plans, and I was looking at them trying to figure out Where's The Difference? Both plans get to the exact same place; one just stretches it out over a period of time.

I find it pretty comforting that what we are seeing now is just partisan drama instead of genuine government dysfunction. I'm pretty confident that the Dems will ensure Boehner has enough votes even if he can't get his party in line.

271 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:29:38am

re: #262 darthstar

The Devil's in the details.

272 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:30:05am

re: #267 darthstar

Heh. Given that the point I'm making is that a conversation about these definitions is endless:

Image: 128898685720828429.jpg

273 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:30:15am

re: #228 Sergey Romanov

It was? I must have missed, and apparently you chose the definition to more neatly debunk it.


Exactly. You're stuck on the issue of the definition of Santa for some reason, but that's not the point. This Santa you have provided a definition for - are we justified in saying that he doesn't exist? Of course. But why? We don't have proof that such a being does not exist, now, do we?

And that's exactly the point. If I am justified in rejecting Santa, without having proof of his non-existence, how is it that I can't say "there is no God" merely because of lack of evidence for God coupled with the inherent absurdity of the concept, even if I don't have proof of his non-existence?

Ah, somehow I missed your argument. See, I thought my position was that I don't know if there is or is not a god, and it is YOU are insisting I convert to your belief that there is no god.

I don't know. It can be neither proven nor disproven given the base assumptions of "a god". I do not deny you your atheism by my own doubt, any more than I deny a Christian or Buddhist or any other follower their own belief. That is, I do not deny them UNLESS you insist on proseletyzing your position. If you insist I must believe as you or be condemned. We are in opposition only if you insist upon it.

274 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:30:34am

re: #266 Obdicut

Again, it's not necessary to address the cause for non-corporeal entitites to stay coherent. Brute fact? Yeah. Enigma? Sure. Follows that non-corporeal entities interacting with real world are incoherent? Not really.

275 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:30:52am

re: #270 Killgore Trout

I find it pretty comforting that what we are seeing now is just partisan drama instead of genuine government dysfunction. I'm pretty confident that the Dems will ensure Boehner has enough votes even if he can't get his party in line.

In other words, the Democrats will have to vote for the GOP plan to keep the Republicans from crashing the economy. While the Republicans triumph that it was their plan that helped save it...

276 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:31:26am

re: #274 Sergey Romanov

Again, it's not necessary to address the cause for non-corporeal entitites to stay coherent. Brute fact? Yeah. Enigma? Sure. Follows that non-corporeal entities interacting with real world are incoherent? Not really.

I think then we just have different versions of incoherent.

Image: 927-Its-Happy-Bunny.jpg

277 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:32:44am
278 darthstar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:32:56am

re: #272 Obdicut

Heh. Given that the point I'm making is that a conversation about these definitions is endless:

Image: 128898685720828429.jpg

I was going to suggest a pootie picture to settle it. I wanted to step in, but after reading the reply trail back to 4:24 this morning I was beat...but I wanted(nay, NEEDED) to know who started that thread.

279 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:35:04am

Pam Geller.....
Media Freakshow: CNN Smears, Defames Human Rights Activists, Christians and Patriots for Norway Shooting



Skip to minute 3:35 -- one reference in a 1,518 page rant (and a couple of links to news stories at Atlas), and Cooper prostrates himself to the very ideology that would hang him in the public square for his "alternative" lifestyle. And notice they only focus on Spencer and me -- but never have us on. So afraid are they that people might be swayed by the truth.

Contact CNN and ask them why they do not pursue the tens of thousands of jihad attacks across the world.

The relentless pro-jihad propagandists cannot get off the crack. They can't help themselves, no matter how devoid their perception is of reality.

280 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:36:03am

re: #273 kirkspencer

No, I just read that your initial posting as implying that there is something wrong with stating that God doesn't exist, just because it's not proven 100% either way (so let's stay PC agnostics and all that). My point is, yeah, we don't know about God either way, but by the same token we don't know about an infinite amount of other whimsical ad hoc entities either way. So if we reject all these entities out of hand, God really doesn't reserve an exemption. I.e.: a) no, we can't prove or disprove God's existence; b) we can still say "there is no God"; c) the previous point is not an expression of religious belief (or religious disbelief, as might be), as long as it's not dogmatic.

281 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:36:54am

re: #277 Cannadian Club Akbar

It's not the Alex Rodriguez you're looking for /obi wan girardi

282 darthstar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:38:04am

re: #279 Killgore Trout

Pam Geller...
Media Freakshow: CNN Smears, Defames Human Rights Activists, Christians and Patriots for Norway Shooting

[Video]

CNN doesn't want to talk to you, Pam, because you're a vile person.

283 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:38:38am

re: #277 Cannadian Club Akbar

Alex Rodrigues arrested on kiddie porn charges!! Kinda...
/

Somewhere, Joe Girardi's heart just skipped a beat

284 darthstar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:39:22am

re: #279 Killgore Trout

Which is she claiming to be? A human rights activist, a Christian, or a patriot?

285 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:40:25am

re: #284 darthstar

Which is she claiming to be? A human rights activist, a Christian, or a patriot?

I think all of the above.

286 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:44:17am

re: #284 darthstar

Which is she claiming to be? A human rights activist, a Christian, or a patriot?

I've heard her repeat the claim over and over she's a human rights activist.

You know what I find funny is nutball Debbie Schlussel has said z/z/n on the race-butthurt bigot in Norway. Poor dear, has fallen compltely off anyone's radar.

Ugh.

287 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:47:26am

re: #280 Sergey Romanov

No, I just read that your initial posting as implying that there is something wrong with stating that God doesn't exist, just because it's not proven 100% either way (so let's stay PC agnostics and all that). My point is, yeah, we don't know about God either way, but by the same token we don't know about an infinite amount of other whimsical ad hoc entities either way. So if we reject all these entities out of hand, God really doesn't reserve an exemption. I.e.: a) no, we can't prove or disprove God's existence; b) we can still say "there is no God"; c) the previous point is not an expression of religious belief (or religious disbelief, as might be), as long as it's not dogmatic.

Bull. Sorry, but read it again. I said that was the agnostic position by my definition of agnostic. I did not insist everyone be such agnostics. In fact I stated a couple of other positions - deist, and atheist - and said that those were also my personal working definitions. At no point did I state everyone should believe that way.

From my point of view you skipped the part that I also mentioned the others, and attacked me for my position, in the process appearing to insist I should be an atheist.

288 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:47:29am

So, anyone that doesn't give Pam an outlet to spew her nonsense is pro-jihadist?

Gotcha.

289 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:47:49am

Obdicut and Sergey should discuss the metaphysics of astrophysics, that would be more entertaining.

290 darthstar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:48:30am

Okay then...Policy Changes and costs compared: Bush vs. Obama

I'd like to staple that to Boehner's forehead.

291 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:50:20am

re: #286 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I've heard her repeat the claim over and over she's a human rights activist.

Of course, in her mind, she is - because it depends entirely on her definition of "human". Spit.

292 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:50:48am

Sergey, I'll be back in a bit to read your responses. I need to cool off. Got told "no"(re: #223) and may be spreading the unhappiness instead of just responding to you.

293 darthstar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:55:52am

re: #292 kirkspencer

Sergey, I'll be back in a bit to read your responses. I need to cool off. Got told "no"() and may be spreading the unhappiness instead of just responding to you.

Shit...sorry to hear that. Chin up...you'll get the next one.

294 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 6:58:18am

re: #292 kirkspencer

Sergey, I'll be back in a bit to read your responses. I need to cool off. Got told "no"() and may be spreading the unhappiness instead of just responding to you.

That sucks. There will be others.

295 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:07:12am

This will be a "wait and see" but it's been on my radio a couple times today.
[Link: tucsoncitizen.com...]

296 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:09:12am

re: #295 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Link: www.kdhnews.com...]

An AWOL soldier from Fort Campell is in the custody of the Killeen Police Department amidst allegations he was planning a second attack on Fort Hood.

The man was arrested Wednesday afternoon on a child pornography warrant, according to a KPD spokeswoman, who would not confirm or deny the terroristic threat.

A Fort Hood spokesperson said an arrest was made yesterday by KPD on a soldier that's not from here, but did not have additional details. He said national media is "reporting something we haven't heard about."

297 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:10:02am

re: #287 kirkspencer

I, of course, also don't insist on anyone being an atheist. Though I do mock the "pure agnostic" position (which sees both "strong atheistic" and "theistic" claims as equally "religious") from time to time, even though strictly speaking I am an atheistic agnostic myself, or a "weak atheist".

You are correct, of course, that in the first posting you didn't imply such a thing, sorry for that. Although having private definitions will have its pitfalls. If you define atheists as strictly "there's no god"-sayers, an saving a skeptical definition for agnostics such as yourself, and even if you do say that it's just your private definition, then it still can be seen as slighting atheists. Why? Because many (and maybe most) atheists _do_ take a skeptical position - "we don't know if there is or isn't a god, we just lack belief in him/her/it because we find such a being improbable and/or because we find no evidence of its existence". Note that just lack of belief is consistent with an agnostic position. By your private def such people are not atheists - but they (we) do call themselves that.

298 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:11:54am

re: #295 Cannadian Club Akbar

This will be a "wait and see" but it's been on my radio a couple times today.
[Link: tucsoncitizen.com...]

Interesting. Unfortunately much of the reporting is based on a Fox exclusive, we'll have to wait until real news outlets start reporting.

299 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:13:12am

re: #298 Killgore Trout

Interesting. Unfortunately much of the reporting is based on a Fox exclusive, we'll have to wait until real news outlets start reporting.

The link had Fox and USA Today. Albeit, "conflicting reports".

300 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:13:16am

Fox reporting the suspect is Pvt. Nasser Jason Abdo

301 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:15:10am

Muslims in the U.S. Military: PFC Naser Abdo

Sep 2, 2010
It seems he previously refused to deploy last year

302 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:16:51am

re: #301 Killgore Trout

Sep 2, 2010
It seems he previously refused to deploy last year

Hence the AWOL charge, I would assume.

303 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:17:07am

re: #301 Killgore Trout

According to what I'm reading, he had child porn on a computer and tried to claim conscientious objector status.

304 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:18:33am

re: #301 Killgore Trout

"Their religion is convenient for whatever they do!"

works for lots of religions...

305 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:19:03am

re: #299 Cannadian Club Akbar

Google News linkages.

306 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:19:46am

re: #303 Obdicut

According to what I'm reading, he had child porn on a computer and tried to claim conscientious objector status.

That's what I'm getting too. from fox....
EXCLUSIVE: AWOL Soldier Arrested Over Concerns of Possible Second Attack On Fort Hood

Another source told Fox News that two other U.S. soldiers also raised possible concerns. Authorities have recovered weapons and possibly explosive materials, Fox News was told.

It remains unclear if any possible plot to attack Ft. Hood was merely aspirational in nature.

Fox's insinuation of a terror plot seems pretty sketchy.

307 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:20:50am

re: #295 Cannadian Club Akbar

This will be a "wait and see" but it's been on my radio a couple times today.
[Link: tucsoncitizen.com...]

"... not from that post"
"Sources report two other soldiers taken into custody with explosives...."

this might bere worth watching

308 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:20:54am

The arrest may simply be for AWOL.

309 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:21:03am

re: #306 Killgore Trout

That's what I'm getting too. from fox...
EXCLUSIVE: AWOL Soldier Arrested Over Concerns of Possible Second Attack On Fort Hood


Fox's insinuation of a terror plot seems pretty sketchy.


I want to see the 1,500-page manifesto first.

Of course, he is Muslim, so the Koran will serve as his manifesto of murder and mayhem, won't it?

/

310 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:21:21am

re: #298 Killgore Trout

No matter whether it's FoxNews or USAT, it seems that the guy was caught because someone at the motel thought the guy was acting suspiciously and called the cops. When the cops showed up, they found he had the outstanding warrant on child porn charges and a further check found he was AWOL and considered armed and dangerous.

It's that latter part that FoxNews has latched on to - and it will be a matter of time before we find out details of the arrest and whether there is anything substantial to the claims of explosives found.

311 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:23:15am

Obviously a lone-wolf nutcase and not a product of any sort of ideology...

312 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:23:39am

re: #308 Killgore Trout

The arrest may simply be for AWOL.

And the warrant for possession of child porn.

313 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:24:00am

re: #305 lawhawk

Google News linkages.

There was a post/page somewhere yesterday linking to outrage that the DHS had suggested that more attention needed to be placed on extremist recruitment of, among others, ex servicemen.

I can't remember where.

314 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:25:31am

re: #310 lawhawk

No matter whether it's FoxNews or USAT, it seems that the guy was caught because someone at the motel thought the guy was acting suspiciously and called the cops. When the cops showed up, they found he had the outstanding warrant on child porn charges and a further check found he was AWOL and considered armed and dangerous.

It's that latter part that FoxNews has latched on to - and it will be a matter of time before we find out details of the arrest and whether there is anything substantial to the claims of explosives found.

"Updated at 9:38 a.m. ET: KCEN-TV reports that explosives were found in the soldier’s car."

315 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:26:15am

re: #314 Ericus58

"Updated at 9:38 a.m. ET: KCEN-TV reports that explosives were found in the soldier’s car."

Maybe that was jut fertilizer, he could be growing illegal dope or something...

316 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:27:46am

re: #297 Sergey Romanov

Why? Because many (and maybe most) atheists _do_ take a skeptical position - "we don't know if there is or isn't a god, we just lack belief in him/her/it because we find such a being improbable and/or because we find no evidence of its existence".

Most atheists are simply not prone to inventing imaginary beings every time they don't have an answer to something. It is not a matter of belief or lack of belief.

317 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:29:08am

re: #316 Naso Tang

Most atheists are simply not prone to inventing imaginary beings every time they don't have an answer to something. It is not a matter of belief or lack of belief.

How about inventing imaginary news stories and conspiracy theories every time because they are too lazy to research something or too impatient to wait for the rest of the facts to come out?

318 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:33:07am

re: #314 Ericus58

"Updated at 9:38 a.m. ET: KCEN-TV reports that explosives were found in the soldier’s car."

I saw that but they don't name the source. It could just be a reference to the Fox report.

319 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:34:39am

re: #316 Naso Tang

Most atheists are simply not prone to inventing imaginary beings every time they don't have an answer to something. It is not a matter of belief or lack of belief.

Um, the "inventions" are already out there, so people take stances.

320 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:34:51am

Danish neo-Nazis are trained by Russian neo-Nazis

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

321 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:35:11am

re: #318 Killgore Trout

When one media outlet gets a scoop, the others will often cite to the earlier report until they get their own reporters on the story to check out details themselves. Thus far, most of the outlets are working from the Fox News exclusive on details beyond that an arrest was made on an AWOL soldier who was being charged with child porn.

322 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:36:30am

re: #320 Sergey Romanov

Danish neo-Nazis are trained by Russian neo-Nazis

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Your link (at bottom) says "Dyomushkin continues:" but there is nothing after.

323 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:36:46am

Ok, some real news agencies are reporting....
AWOL Soldier Arrested in Killeen with Weapons, Explosives

The solider, Pvt. Abdo Nasser, was stationed at Ft. Campbell, Ky, and returned from a tour in Afghanistan on July 4, according to KXAN-TV.

NBC News' Pete Williams learned the solider was said to have been overheard making threatening statements to attack an Army post, possibly Ft. Hood. After his arrest, he continued to make them, according to federal law enforcement officials.

324 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:37:07am

re: #322 Cannadian Club Akbar

Your link (at bottom) says "Dyomushkin continues:" but there is nothing after.

Opps. It's there now. WTF did I do? D'oh!!

325 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:38:20am

re: #317 ralphieboy

How about inventing imaginary news stories and conspiracy theories every time because they are too lazy to research something or too impatient to wait for the rest of the facts to come out?

I suppose one can argue that there is a mindset that can't live without answers and has to invent simple ones, although I wouldn't necessarily equate all such non religious tendencies directly with religion.

The first requires thought, even if wrong, the second requires only faith.

326 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:38:28am

re: #323 Killgore Trout

Ok, some real news agencies are reporting...
AWOL Soldier Arrested in Killeen with Weapons, Explosives

And there goes the neighborhood. At least we caught up with this guy before anything happened.

327 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:41:54am

re: #319 Sergey Romanov

Um, the "inventions" are already out there, so people take stances.

I suppose, if one takes the view that most believers in an invention don't think about it, they just accept it. But, if they don't accept it, it would seem they have to think about it.

328 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:43:34am

re: #323 Killgore Trout

Ok, some real news agencies are reporting...
AWOL Soldier Arrested in Killeen with Weapons, Explosives

They also mentioned the Fox report and the other arrest. Would a rival news organization do that normally?

329 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:45:34am

re: #313 Naso Tang

There was a post/page somewhere yesterday linking to outrage that the DHS had suggested that more attention needed to be placed on extremist recruitment of, among others, ex servicemen.

I can't remember where.

I found it here

330 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:47:04am

re: #328 Cannadian Club Akbar

They also mentioned the Fox report and the other arrest. Would a rival news organization do that normally?

In a word, yes

Longer explanation,,,, even though they are "rivals", all the networks do news source sharing

For instance, a local NBC affiliate for network primetime shows may also be a news affiliate for both FOX and CNN

Think of when you see a "live" fire, or a "live" car chase, CNN states the video is "coming from our affiliate" ,, if you look at their call letters you'll find that they are an NBC 'station"

331 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:47:14am

re: #329 Naso Tang

I found it here


Duh. If you are obsessed with killing and with weapons, what better opportunity to gain training and access to them than by joining the military?

332 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:48:19am

re: #323 Killgore Trout

Ok, some real news agencies are reporting...
AWOL Soldier Arrested in Killeen with Weapons, Explosives

So FOX beat "real news agencies" in reporting this!

:)

/

333 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:49:23am

AWOL Campbell pfc. arrested near Hood with bomb

An AWOL soldier from Fort Campbell, Ky., was arrested near Fort Hood, Texas, apparently averting another attack on the post, according to an internal Army message.

According a worldwide Army alert, Killeen police arrested a private first class who was in possession of a bomb, gun and a “large quantity” of ammunition — as well as an Army uniform. His full name was not released.

334 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:50:08am

More....

“Upon questioning, suspect admitted to planning an attack on Fort Hood,” reads the message, from the Army Operations Center at the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. “It is not clear if this individual is acting alone or in coordination with others. Therefore all commands are directed to communicate this threat.”
335 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:51:52am

re: #330 sattv4u2

In a word, yes

Longer explanation,,, even though they are "rivals", all the networks do news source sharing

For instance, a local NBC affiliate for network primetime shows may also be a news affiliate for both FOX and CNN

Think of when you see a "live" fire, or a "live" car chase, CNN states the video is "coming from our affiliate" ,, if you look at their call letters you'll find that they are an NBC 'station"

AND,, that doesn't even include hundreds of "free lancers" around the country who record "news" events then sell the footage to anyone who'll sign a check

336 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:56:37am

BBC: Breaking News
Police in Finland say they have arrested man who bought chemicals that could be used for bomb-making

337 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:57:17am

BTW, this does reinforce the issue that there is legitimate criticism of "multiculturalism" (depending on how you define it). There have been numerous attacks and plots from Muslim servicemen. Most Muslims serve honorably but others don't. Why? Because of their religious beliefs. It's a serious problem.

338 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 7:59:34am

re: #336 Ericus58

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Finnish police say they have arrested an 18-year-old man who ordered 22 pounds (10 kilograms) of fertilizer from Poland to build make explosives. Local media cited police as saying the man wanted to experiment with making his own fireworks.

The Finnish National Bureau of investigation says agents grew suspicious when the man on Tuesday received a package of fertilizer, which contains ammonium nitrate and can be used for making explosives.

Police said Thursday they arrested the man in the town of Lahti in southern Finland after searching his home. They said "during the search a number of things were confiscated and these things were meant to manufacture an explosive device."

No connection to Breivik's rampage in Norway.

339 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:01:13am

re: #337 Killgore Trout

BTW, this does reinforce the issue that there is legitimate criticism of "multiculturalism" (depending on how you define it). There have been numerous attacks and plots from Muslim servicemen. Most Muslims serve honorably but others don't. Why? Because of their religious beliefs. It's a serious problem.

Other than the Ft. Hood shooting, nothing is coming to mind. Which plots am I forgetting?

340 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:01:52am

re: #337 Killgore Trout

These guys are not being drafted. If military service is contrary to their beliefs, they should not join.

I seem to remember a number of non-Muslim soldiers refusing service in Iraq or Afghainstan because they found it illegal, unconstitutional, or in one famous case, because they claimed that their Commander-in-Chief was not constitutionally qualified to be President...

What was the case of the fellow who refused to wear a blue NATO helmet because he felt it constituted abdicating authority to a foreign power?

341 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:03:41am

re: #339 McSpiff

Other than the Ft. Hood shooting, nothing is coming to mind. Which plots am I forgetting?

Ah, the grenade and shooting attack on the base in Iraq comes to mind immediately

342 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:05:01am

re: #341 Ericus58

Ah, the grenade and shooting attack on the base in Iraq comes to mind immediately

Forgot that the grenade attack was a muslim soldier. Same thing happened to the Canadians in Afganistan but it was a white dude. Got the two confused.

343 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:06:04am

re: #340 ralphieboy

About Abdo and the conscientious objector status:

The solider, 21-year-old Pfc. Naser Abdo, was stationed at Ft. Campbell, Ky, and returned from a tour in Afghanistan on July 4, according to KXAN-TV. Abdo applied for conscientious objector status last August, which was approved this spring. The military has not been able to discharge Abdo because he is facing a court-martial for allegedly having child pornography on his military computer.
344 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:06:18am

re: #342 McSpiff

Forgot that the grenade attack was a muslim soldier. Same thing happened to the Canadians in Afganistan but it was a white dude. Got the two confused.

Shooting at a recruiting center in Alabama (I think it was Bama)

345 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:06:51am

re: #337 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure how that's a problem with multiculturalism, exactly. Seems to me like a problem with radical Islam.

I guess we'd have to figure out what our culture is, first, before we could define multiculturalism.

346 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:07:13am

How can one be a military service volunteer and a "conscientious objector" at the same time? It seems that if one was a "conscientious objector" then he would have never signed up for the military in the first place?

347 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:08:06am

re: #339 McSpiff

Other than the Ft. Hood shooting, nothing is coming to mind. Which plots am I forgetting?

There was a guy who went on a killing spree at the beginning of the Gulf War. I think in Kuwait.

348 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:08:07am

re: #339 McSpiff

Other than the Ft. Hood shooting, nothing is coming to mind. Which plots am I forgetting?

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

349 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:08:15am

re: #339 McSpiff

Yonathan Melaku.

350 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:08:54am

re: #346 Alouette

How can one be a military service volunteer and a "conscientious objector" at the same time? It seems that if one was a "conscientious objector" then he would have never signed up for the military in the first place?

It's also pretty obvious that he's not really opposed to killing.

351 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:09:18am

Bais declaration: re: #344 Cannadian Club Akbar

Shooting at a recruiting center in Alabama (I think it was Bama)

That's right, forgot about that one too.

352 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:09:30am

Jon Stewart's Epic Takedown Of Conservative Self-Victimization

"Gretchen... if you ever feel alone at Christmastime... head over to a Chinese restaurant. They're jammed."

353 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:09:37am

re: #342 McSpiff

Forgot that the grenade attack was a Muslim soldier. Same thing happened to the Canadians in Afganistan but it was a white dude. Got the two confused.

I don't have in front of me the number of current Muslim service members in our armed forces. I do know that a lion's share of them perform with honor and commitment.

But what could be most troubling about this newly reported incident is that it comes at a time so close to ABB's vile attack - and it WILL be used as a counter-point to deflect criticism from the likes of Pam, R.S.....

I can hear the screeching now...

354 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:09:45am

re: #346 Alouette

How can one be a military service volunteer and a "conscientious objector" at the same time? It seems that if one was a "conscientious objector" then he would have never signed up for the military in the first place?

No one told the guy there actually more then one job in the military.

355 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:09:53am

re: #351 McSpiff

Woops, mashed two post together. Ignore the bais part, was replying to something unrelated.

356 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:10:01am

re: #348 sattv4u2

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

Ah, there it is. I'm pretty sure there have also been busted plots but I can't recall off the top of my head right now.

357 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:10:59am

re: #353 Ericus58

Already.

358 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:11:10am

re: #353 Ericus58

But what could be most troubling about this newly reported incident is that it comes at a time so close to ABB's vile attack - and it WILL be used as a counter-point to deflect criticism from the likes of Pam, R.S...

I can hear the screeching now...

Yeah, this was my first thought. Now the rabid right-wing hate machines will start shrieking even louder that they were right all along, anti-Muslim yada yada yada, etc., etc. Ugh.

359 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:12:26am

re: #358 thedopefishlives

As if anyone had ever denied that radical Islamic terrorists were a problem.

Or as if those anti-Muslim assholes were only concerned with radical Islam.

They're anti-all-Muslim, and, as we've seen from some of the blogs linked by Gates of Vienna, anti-Jewish, anti-anything-not-White, too.

360 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:13:27am

For the record, I didn't doubt there was more shooting/attacks/plots by Muslim service members, just couldn't think of them. Wanted to get a sense of how many happened. LGF obliged as usual.

As a Canadian, the Quebec National Assembly attack always comes to mind when these things happen.

361 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:14:14am

re: #360 McSpiff

Wow. He got paroled.

362 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:16:23am

Official: Bomb materials found in soldier's room near Fort Hood

FBI agents searching the soldier's hotel room found gunpowder, shotgun shells, 18 pounds of sugar, a pressure cooker, four magazines and ammunition, the defense official said.


Maybe he was baking a really big cake to thank our servicemen.
/

363 MisterCookie  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:16:40am

Offtopic, but hilarious none the less:
Republican Tear Party Leader Arrested for Computer Piracy

61-year-old Anthony Trinca was arrested for allegedly selling pirated versions of high-end computer software. Microsoft Office, Windows, Adobe Photoshop, and Rosetta Stone language programs were all listed as software that he sold illegally.

Trinca is the president of the Grand Strand Tea Party, based in South Carolina, which strives to spread messages about how big government is evil and that America needs to return to its conservative roots.

364 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:16:47am

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. $1.1 million worth of cars crash in Monaco. Chain collision had a Bentley scrape the side of a Mercedes before plowing into a Ferrari. Then, the Bentley proceeded to run into an Aston Martin and a Porsche.

Guess with all the money spent on the cars - Bentley Azure (worth an estimated $400,000), a Mercedes S Class ($120,000), a Ferrari F430 ($230,000), an Aston Martin Rapide ($230,000) and a Porsche 911 ($130,000) - they couldn't bother with driving lessons?

365 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:17:31am

re: #361 Obdicut

Wow. He got paroled.

Just saw that too. Shaking my head at that one.

366 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:17:45am

re: #363 MisterCookie

Offtopic, but hilarious none the less:
Republican Tear Party Leader Arrested for Computer Piracy

Heh. Thanks, I needed a laugh this morning.

367 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:18:25am

re: #361 Obdicut

Wow. He got paroled.

3 killed
13 wounded

and he spends just 10 years in prison!

{sigh}

368 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:20:25am

re: #362 Killgore Trout

Official: Bomb materials found in soldier's room near Fort Hood


Maybe he was baking a really big cake to thank our servicemen.
/

No True Scotsman!

"We have two things that I believe make us American, and that's freedom of religion and freedom of choice," he said in an interview last year.

He said he had to remain true to Islam.

"I've come to the conclusion that the consequences I would face by refusing deployment are a lot less than the consequences I would face should I go. I don't think I would be able to live with myself if I deployed," he said.

369 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:22:24am

re: #363 MisterCookie

Offtopic, but hilarious none the less:
Republican Tear Party Leader Arrested for Computer Piracy

Free market in action!

(Zedushka visited the "Pirate Mall" when we went to Moscow several years ago, and bought a bunch of cracked warez. We could have been so busted at customs if they had bothered to inspect the laptop case)

370 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:23:24am

re: #369 Alouette

Hahah.

371 MisterCookie  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:24:06am

re: #369 Alouette

re: #366 Killgore Trout

I just like to envision Trinca as one of those folks who thinks taxes are stealing and the President is a thief - it just makes it so delicious.

372 Lidane  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:24:52am

It's Thursday and the sun is still Too Damn Hot. And I'm still amazed at how many trees I'm killing for a digital media internship portfolio. WTF.

Also, could someone please tell Grover Norquist to make up his damn mind? Either a default would be a disaster or it wouldn't:

373 McSpiff  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:24:52am

re: #367 sattv4u2

3 killed
13 wounded

and he spends just 10 years in prison!

{sigh}

Don't get me started on parole in Canada. Or pardons.

374 tnguitarist  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:25:12am
375 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:25:14am

Despite Pam's bleating every article I've seen labels the suspected terrorist a Muslim.

376 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:25:51am

re: #372 Lidane

Hey, is TS Don (or whatever name it is) heading toward you?

377 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:26:24am

re: #376 Cannadian Club Akbar

Hey, is TS Don (or whatever name it is) heading toward you?

Trans Sexual Don!?!?!

//

NTTAWWT!!!

378 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:28:22am

Herman Cain takes his apology back. ///

379 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:29:13am

Must suck to be Tiger Woods!!

[Link: sports.yahoo.com...]

380 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:30:26am

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Do you know if there are any attempts by the military to prevent/foresee this sort of thing by compiling psychological profiles, running people through batteries of specific tests or whatever?

381 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:31:24am

re: #376 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Link: www.stormpulse.com...]

382 Lidane  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:32:10am

re: #374 tnguitarist

Speaking of Al, this is glorious:

383 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:32:24am

re: #381 lawhawk

[Link: www.stormpulse.com...]

That is a friggin' way cool site.

384 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:35:39am

re: #380 Sergey Romanov

There's a screening test, but it's geared towards mental health fitness - looking to reduce suicide rates and improve identification of affected soldiers.

Come October, the service will require all its active duty, National Guard, and reserve soldiers to take a test that will help identify potential problem areas for soldiers. The 170-question test will look at physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, and family issues and then recommend follow-on training as needed.

The program comes as the Army is tackling rising suicide rates, divorce, and depression among thousands of soldiers returning from war. But unlike other programs, which seek to intervene when a soldier's issues have already been flagged by other screening methods, this program aims to be more proactive.

That kind of screening might also be used to filter out those who might be predisposed to carry out attacks against fellow soldiers.

385 Lidane  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:35:46am

re: #376 Cannadian Club Akbar

Hey, is TS Don (or whatever name it is) heading toward you?

I hope so. We desperately need the rain.

386 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:36:03am

re: #383 Cannadian Club Akbar

It's my go-to site when hurricane season rolls around.

387 Interesting Times  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:36:17am

re: #380 Sergey Romanov

Do you know if there are any attempts by the military to prevent/foresee this sort of thing by compiling psychological profiles, running people through batteries of specific tests or whatever?

The Ford Hood shooter (Hassan) could have stopped simply by reading and following the guidelines in this book:

The Gift of Fear

People don't just "snap" and become violent, says de Becker, whose clients include federal government agencies, celebrities, police departments, and shelters for battered women. "There is a process as observable, and often as predictable, as water coming to a boil."

388 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:37:06am

re: #385 Lidane

I hope so. We desperately need the rain.

Aren't you in Texas? If so, within the Cone of Death so far forecast?

389 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:38:10am

re: #385 Lidane

I hope so. We desperately need the rain.

You can have all the rain that we're getting here in Michigan.

390 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:39:05am

Ah well

Guess I'll go pretend to be productive

Errands/chores list is getting longer

391 allegro  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:39:27am

re: #385 Lidane

I hope so. We desperately need the rain.

It looks like it's going to hit south of us here in Houston. Bummer. It's strange to think that we're actually hoping to get a tropical storm. That's how desperately we need the rain.

392 Lidane  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:41:35am

re: #388 Cannadian Club Akbar

Aren't you in Texas? If so, within the Cone of Death so far forecast?

Looks like it's further south. My mom and the rest of my family will see some rain since they're along the Mexican border, but Austin looks like it's north of the storm.

Of course I can't tell from the maps I've seen. I could be wrong.

393 Lidane  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:42:14am

re: #391 allegro

It looks like it's going to hit south of us here in Houston. Bummer. It's strange to think that we're actually hoping to get a tropical storm. That's how desperately we need the rain.

Seriously. I can't remember ever being happy that a tropical storm was hitting.

394 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:43:25am

re: #391 allegro

re: #393 Lidane

Ya'll need it to bump North and slow down a bit.

395 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:45:28am

Alrighty. bbiab

396 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:47:12am

re: #297 Sergey Romanov

I, of course, also don't insist on anyone being an atheist. Though I do mock the "pure agnostic" position (which sees both "strong atheistic" and "theistic" claims as equally "religious") from time to time, even though strictly speaking I am an atheistic agnostic myself, or a "weak atheist".

You are correct, of course, that in the first posting you didn't imply such a thing, sorry for that. Although having private definitions will have its pitfalls. If you define atheists as strictly "there's no god"-sayers, an saving a skeptical definition for agnostics such as yourself, and even if you do say that it's just your private definition, then it still can be seen as slighting atheists. Why? Because many (and maybe most) atheists _do_ take a skeptical position - "we don't know if there is or isn't a god, we just lack belief in him/her/it because we find such a being improbable and/or because we find no evidence of its existence". Note that just lack of belief is consistent with an agnostic position. By your private def such people are not atheists - but they (we) do call themselves that.

I see. It seems a peculiar position to me in some ways, yet I can see the logic. Ah well, enough bits wasted on this, thank you for the discussion.

397 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:48:12am

re: #396 kirkspencer

You too. Peace :)

398 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:48:47am

Update on the Naser Abdo situation in Texas:

Police in Central Texas have caught an AWOL Muslim soldier from Fort Campbell, Ky., at a motel in the city near Fort Hood after he asked how to build explosives at a gun store.

A law enforcement official told CBS News that Pfc. Naser Abdo's questions about explosives and how to build them made the gun store employee suspicious. When police questioned Abdo at his motel, he made references to a plan to kill or injure people, the official said.

Special Section: Tragedy at Fort Hood

Two people associated with Abdo have been questioned but not arrested, the official said.

Killeen police spokeswoman Carroll Smith says Abdo was held Thursday, a day after his arrest.

Abdo failed to report for duty following the July Fourth holiday. He had won conscientious objector status but faced court-martial for allegedly having child pornography on his military computer.

399 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:50:46am

re: #398 lawhawk

Sounds like an Idiot, First Class to me. Heh.

400 Lidane  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:51:15am

*sigh*

These people are idiots. We're going to default for no fucking reason at all:

House Republicans Unprepared For Senate Rejection Of Boehner Debt Limit Plan

401 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:53:01am

re: #400 Lidane

*sigh*

These people are idiots. We're going to default for no fucking reason at all:

House Republicans Unprepared For Senate Rejection Of Boehner Debt Limit Plan

Well, we're going to default because the Tea Party won the House.

402 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:53:15am

re: #400 Lidane

*sigh*

These people are idiots. We're going to default for no fucking reason at all:

House Republicans Unprepared For Senate Rejection Of Boehner Debt Limit Plan

Speaking of Idiots, First Class... *facepalm*

403 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:55:07am

re: #398 lawhawk

Update on the Naser Abdo situation in Texas:


"Special Section: Tragedy at Fort Hood"??? wtf?

They caught this guy, nobody died, and it's a tragedy?

As a secondary issue, I want to see what his target was going to be. Was it going to be Ft. Hood? And if so, what part? Was this due to religion, or was it in connection with his other pending charges?

After ABB you'd think everyone would take a moment instead of instantly declaiming 9/11 part whatever.

404 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:56:39am

re: #398 lawhawk

I too fail to understand how there can be a "conscientious objector" status in an voluntary military. And "conscientious objector" to what? A war where people who just happen to be Muslims are involved? Sorry, bud, but they're a hostile party first and whatever is their religion second.

405 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:57:02am

re: #403 kirkspencer

For God's sake IT WAS BECAUSE OF HIS RELIGION

Islam demands that its followers KILL AND MAIN IN THE NAME OF ALLAH

Therefore we should BAN ALL MUSLIMS FROM THE MILITARY

406 Lidane  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:57:10am

re: #401 JasonA

Well, we're going to default because the Tea Party won the House.

A fact which needs to be tied around the necks of the GOP like a goddamn anchor.

407 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:57:27am

re: #403 kirkspencer

The "special section" leads to a story about Nasan (an update)

408 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:58:14am

re: #405 ralphieboy

For God's sake IT WAS BECAUSE OF HIS RELIGION

Islam demands that its followers KILL AND MAIN IN THE NAME OF ALLAH

Therefore we should BAN ALL MUSLIMS FROM THE MILITARY

Crazy Pam, is that you? I thought Charles banned you long ago.

409 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:58:24am

re: #403 kirkspencer

re: #407 sattv4u2

The "special section" leads to a story about Nasan (an update)

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

410 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:58:56am

re: #403 kirkspencer

re: #407 sattv4u2

The "special section" leads to a story about Nasan HASAN (an update)

411 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:59:02am

re: #404 Sergey Romanov

I too fail to understand how there can be a "conscientious objector" status in an voluntary military. And "conscientious objector" to what? A war where people who just happen to be Muslims are involved? Sorry, bud, but they're a hostile party first and whatever is their religion second.


Should there not be some part of the application form/interview in which they ask a recruit if there would be any circumstances under which they would not be willing to kill for their country?

412 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:59:26am

re: #403 kirkspencer

That was a link to the Fort Hood Massacre (Maj. Hasan gunning down 13 soldiers), but the link didn't copy.

413 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:59:37am

re: #404 Sergey Romanov

I too fail to understand how there can be a "conscientious objector" status in an voluntary military. And "conscientious objector" to what? A war where people who just happen to be Muslims are involved? Sorry, bud, but they're a hostile party first and whatever is their religion second.

A case of an individual placing his Religion above his Oath and Country.

Kinda falls in the category of......... Terrorists.

414 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 8:59:46am

re: #408 thedopefishlives


Crazy Pam, is that you? I thought Charles banned you long ago.

I am channeling her spirit while she is passed out on Bombay Sapphire and cranberry juice...

415 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:01:14am

re: #413 Ericus58

Or placing his sheer cowardice.

416 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:01:58am

re: #400 Lidane

*sigh*

These people are idiots. We're going to default for no fucking reason at all:

House Republicans Unprepared For Senate Rejection Of Boehner Debt Limit Plan


I don't think we'll default.

I think, if it comes to the wire, that the president will opt for the 14th (or the trillion dollar coin) over the default.

He wants a grand deal. If that is refused, however, he has the choice of two potentially ignominous events for his legacy: the default, or the impeachment and supreme court ruling on the inevitable suit brought as a result of avoiding the default.

A certain national catastrophe vs a potential personal catastrophe.

I think he already hinted at this in one of his recent speeches. The awkward phrasing, saying if there was no deal he'd sign an increase through 2013, isn't typical for him. I think he was saying without saying that the 14th was an undesired, not off the table.

But I could be wrong.

417 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:03:59am

re: #415 Obdicut

Or placing his sheer cowardice.

"my mama didn't hug me enough...."

A Traitor, a Coward - I can think of other words I'd apply here also.
His reason for the CO status was specific in this regard to bearing arms against fellow muslims.

418 Lidane  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:04:48am

Who is @ChenZhen on Twitter? They keep replying to my Tweets with ancient LGF links.

The Page I posted about Breivik got me a link to an old post about Obesssion from 2006. WTF.

419 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:05:14am

re: #380 Sergey Romanov

Do you know if there are any attempts by the military to prevent/foresee this sort of thing by compiling psychological profiles, running people through batteries of specific tests or whatever?

I'm pretty sure they have their methods but I have no clue what they are.

420 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:05:30am

re: #417 Ericus58

It might have been just a handy excuse.

Also, I don't think we should grant CO exceptions on that status. In fact, I think it's unconstitutional to do so. I think they army just wanted him gone.

421 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:05:34am

re: #418 Lidane

Who is @ChenZhen on Twitter? They keep replying to my Tweets with ancient LGF links.

The Page I posted about Breivik got me a link to an old post about Obesssion from 2006. WTF.

It's one of the Stalkers. Block it.

422 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:05:35am

re: #418 Lidane

Who is @ChenZhen on Twitter? They keep replying to my Tweets with ancient LGF links.

The Page I posted about Breivik got me a link to an old post about Obesssion from 2006. WTF.

iirc,,, someone with that screename used to post here

423 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:05:36am

re: #418 Lidane

Who is @ChenZhen on Twitter? They keep replying to my Tweets with ancient LGF links.

The Page I posted about Breivik got me a link to an old post about Obesssion from 2006. WTF.

He's a stalker.

424 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:05:51am

re: #418 Lidane

Just one of the stalkers, I think.

425 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:06:46am

re: #407 sattv4u2

The "special section" leads to a story about Nasan (an update)

Ah. Thank you.

426 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:06:57am

re: #404 Sergey Romanov

It may have its foundation in a time when there was a draft, but it still has its utility today in an all-volunteer force. Say someone is in the military for a couple of years after willingly going in. They become disillusioned, or find religion (Quakerism for example) and decide that serving is no longer justified and violates their new-found beliefs. That would fall into the conscientious objector status.

427 dragonfire1981  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:08:36am

re: #416 kirkspencer

I don't think we'll default.

I think, if it comes to the wire, that the president will opt for the 14th (or the trillion dollar coin) over the default.

He wants a grand deal. If that is refused, however, he has the choice of two potentially ignominous events for his legacy: the default, or the impeachment and supreme court ruling on the inevitable suit brought as a result of avoiding the default.

A certain national catastrophe vs a potential personal catastrophe.

I think he already hinted at this in one of his recent speeches. The awkward phrasing, saying if there was no deal he'd sign an increase through 2013, isn't typical for him. I think he was saying without saying that the 14th was an undesired, not off the table.

But I could be wrong.

As much as both options suck, it would be better for just the President to go down than for the whole country.

428 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:09:12am

re: #426 lawhawk

... Say someone is in the military for a couple of years after willingly going in. They become disillusioned, or find religion...and decide that serving is no longer justified and violates their new-found beliefs.

You mean like he found Muhammad about the time they wanted to ship him to the Middle East?

429 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:09:39am

re: #398 lawhawk


A law enforcement official told CBS News that Pfc. Naser Abdo asked how to build explosives at a central Texas gun store. His questions about explosives made the gun store worker suspicious, the official said. When police questioned Abdo at his motel, he made references to a plan to kill or injure people.

"Hello, my name is Naser Abdo and I would like to make explosives for my Jihad.....er....ummmm....patriotic Independence Day party."

430 Lidane  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:09:49am

re: #421 Alouette

It's one of the Stalkers. Block it.

Ah. Gotcha. They're blocked now.

Thanks!

431 Alexzander  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:10:17am

re: #418 Lidane

Who is @ChenZhen on Twitter? They keep replying to my Tweets with ancient LGF links.

The Page I posted about Breivik got me a link to an old post about Obesssion from 2006. WTF.

The stalkers think they are making some profound point by reminding everyone of where LGF was many years ago on the subjects of Islam and multiculturalism.

432 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:11:43am

re: #398 lawhawk


I understand why the Army was anxious to get rid of such an enormous f*ck up.

433 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:12:39am

re: #431 Alexzander

The stalkers think they are making some profound point by reminding everyone of where LGF was many years ago on the subjects of Islam and multiculturalism.

Which always brings to mind Keynes' remark. "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

434 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:13:06am

re: #431 Alexzander

The stalkers think they are making some profound point by reminding everyone of where LGF was many years ago on the subjects of Islam and multiculturalism.

I think pretty much everyone here - whether newbies or oldies - knows about old LGF's take on things. The "exposes" they publish make me yawn.

435 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:13:33am

re: #426 lawhawk

It may have its foundation in a time when there was a draft, but it still has its utility today in an all-volunteer force. Say someone is in the military for a couple of years after willingly going in. They become disillusioned, or find religion (Quakerism for example) and decide that serving is no longer justified and violates their new-found beliefs. That would fall into the conscientious objector status.

I can accept that a few individuals that after being in the service can change their life views, and should be looked at to find a resolution thattries to accomidate.
However, using the reasoning that "I can't fight against those of the same Religion/Race/Sex/WoW Guild as me" is not valid - and is inherently dangerous.

Let's revisit that Oath of Enlistment for a second: "Defend the Constitution of the United States, against ALL enemies, both foreign and domestic".

436 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:14:16am

MOONBAT ALERT!

[Link: www.nme.com...]

Morrissey has branded the actions of Anders Breivik, the man responsible for last week's twin attacks in Norway as "nothing" when compared to McDonald's and Kentucky Fried Chicken.

437 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:16:33am

re: #436 Sergey Romanov


Psycho Chicken, cluck! cluck! cluck!

438 Alexzander  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:17:26am

re: #433 kirkspencer

Which always brings to mind Keynes' remark. "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

Well to be fair, its not like Islam and multiculturalism were bad then and OK now - it was the overall perspective (or perhaps awareness) of the blog that changed.

439 Ericus58  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:18:09am

re: #436 Sergey Romanov

MOONBAT ALERT!

[Link: www.nme.com...]

Morrissey has branded the actions of Anders Breivik, the man responsible for last week's twin attacks in Norway as "nothing" when compared to McDonald's and Kentucky Fried Chicken.

wow - that just might be on a level below "moonbat"...

440 Gus  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:18:19am

re: #418 Lidane

Who is @ChenZhen on Twitter? They keep replying to my Tweets with ancient LGF links.

The Page I posted about Breivik got me a link to an old post about Obesssion from 2006. WTF.

I saw that. He sent me one too about the video "Obsession" and how it was linked here. Like that means something. Again, they fail to miss the point that people change -- the link he provides is about 5 years old. Breivk of course does mention Charles but it's all in the negative sense and not the positive sense.

I never watched "Obsession" even "back in the day". Hysteria was something I was never interested in and I tend to limit information like that with programming like Frontline/PBS. I even had the DVD and didn't bother to watch it. My mind was on other things and by 2006 terrorism wasn't high on my priority list let alone watching paranoid propaganda.

441 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:18:33am

Gov. Chris Christie (R-NJ) has been taken to a hospital after having trouble breathing.

A spokesman, Michael Drewniak, said Christie suffers from asthma, and was taken to Somerset Medical Center in Somerville "out of an abundance of caution."

Drewniak said the governor was "doing fine: and undergoing tests.

At town hall events, Christie often tells audiences that he has asthma. When explaining the difference between the federal government's health care plans and New Jersey's, he describes going to his local pharmacist to refill his inhaler prescription.

442 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:18:35am

re: #437 ralphieboy

Psycho Chicken, cluck! cluck! cluck!

He must've overwatched Poultrygeist: Night of the Chicken Dead. (Which was a funny movie is you like Troma trash.)

443 Lidane  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:18:35am

re: #436 Sergey Romanov

Morrissey's always been like that.

I like The Smiths and I like his solo records because they remind me of my teenage years, but I've never followed Morrissey's politics.

444 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:19:34am

re: #438 Alexzander


He was also drawing a distinction between reasoned criticism of certain practices and policies of Islam and frothing chauvanistic rejection of everything Islamic

445 Lidane  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:19:44am

re: #442 Sergey Romanov

He must've overwatched Poultrygeist: Night of the Chicken Dead. (Which was a funny movie is you like Troma trash.)

My boyfriend's a huge Troma fan. We had a bunch of DVD's of their stuff in the house for ages.

446 Alexzander  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:21:30am

re: #440 Gus 802

I saw that. He sent me one too about the video "Obsession" and how it was linked here. Like that means something. Again, they fail to miss the point that people change -- the link he provides is about 5 years old. Breivk of course does mention Charles but it's all in the negative sense and not the positive sense.

I never watched "Obsession" even "back in the day". Hysteria was something I was never interested in and I tend to limit information like that with programming like Frontline/PBS. I even had the DVD and didn't bother to watch it. My mind was on other things and by 2006 terrorism wasn't high on my priority list let alone watching paranoid propaganda.

The current claim of the stalkers is that LGF was one of the few anti-jihad blogs around when Breivk began this project nine years ago. Essentially, they are relishing the opportunity to try and smear LGF by saying it contributed to Breivk back then.

447 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:22:15am

News of the World targeted phone of Sarah Payne's mother

Evidence found in private detective's notes believed to relate to phone which Rebekah Brooks gave to Sara Payne as gift
....
The evidence that police have found in Mulcaire's notes is believed to relate to a phone given to Payne by Brooks as a gift to help her stay in touch with her supporters.

Brooks is going to jail for a very long time.

448 Alexzander  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:23:36am

re: #447 Killgore Trout

wow ugly. Interesting how we seem to only have space for one story at a time in the national consciousness though. Really stretched between the debt ceilling, Norway and the continuing fallout of the phone scandal.

449 allegro  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:24:22am

re: #436 Sergey Romanov

MOONBAT ALERT!

[Link: www.nme.com...]

Morrissey has branded the actions of Anders Breivik, the man responsible for last week's twin attacks in Norway as "nothing" when compared to McDonald's and Kentucky Fried Chicken.

Poultrygeist

450 allegro  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:26:31am

re: #442 Sergey Romanov

He must've overwatched Poultrygeist: Night of the Chicken Dead. (Which was a funny movie is you like Troma trash.)

You beat me to it!

451 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:28:28am

re: #446 Alexzander

The current claim of the stalkers is that LGF was one of the few anti-jihad blogs around when Breivk began this project nine years ago. Essentially, they are relishing the opportunity to try and smear LGF by saying it contributed to Breivk back then.

Although LGF was the "blogdaddy" both of Geller and Spencer (IIRC Charles designed the first version of JW), the crucial point here is that it all ended in 2007, and not because of simple personal spats, but specifically because of the issue of Eurofascism. Since then Charles has been one of the most outspoken enemies of these individuals, and I think one searches, one can find a posting in which Geller accused him of killing or slowing down the anti-Jihadi movement by his actions. Surely if Charles alone was such an influence, his turning against the loons should be considered just as potentially influential? Breivik, of course, was paying attention. And he chose not Charles/LGF path, but the path of Fjordman/Geller/Spencer.

452 Alexzander  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:31:26am

re: #451 Sergey Romanov

Good summary; wish I had something to add.

453 Gus  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:32:46am

re: #446 Alexzander

The current claim of the stalkers is that LGF was one of the few anti-jihad blogs around when Breivk began this project nine years ago. Essentially, they are relishing the opportunity to try and smear LGF by saying it contributed to Breivk back then.

They can try but it's not working and it's not going to work.

The media is the one that picked up on this. We played a minor role here at LGF since in the end, we are still a blog and don't have the power of a large scale media organization. They can Tweet us until they're blue in the face but that will have no effect on the media spotlight on Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller and especially Fjordman.

454 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:34:26am

re: #451 Sergey Romanov

Although LGF was the "blogdaddy" both of Geller and Spencer (IIRC Charles designed the first version of JW), the crucial point here is that it all ended in 2007, and not because of simple personal spats, but specifically because of the issue of Eurofascism. Since then Charles has been one of the most outspoken enemies of these individuals, and I think one searches, one can find a posting in which Geller accused him of killing or slowing down the anti-Jihadi movement by his actions. Surely if Charles alone was such an influence, his turning against the loons should be considered just as potentially influential? Breivik, of course, was paying attention. And he chose not Charles/LGF path, but the path of Fjordman/Geller/Spencer.

The Shrieking Harpie, in a jaw-dropping display of denial and projection, has actually tried to place the blame on Charles for Breivik going psycho.

455 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:35:50am

re: #454 Alouette

She took seriously the stalker blog's claims that Breivik personally wrote about Charles (it was Fjordman).

456 Gus  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 9:37:41am

re: #451 Sergey Romanov

Although LGF was the "blogdaddy" both of Geller and Spencer (IIRC Charles designed the first version of JW), the crucial point here is that it all ended in 2007, and not because of simple personal spats, but specifically because of the issue of Eurofascism. Since then Charles has been one of the most outspoken enemies of these individuals, and I think one searches, one can find a posting in which Geller accused him of killing or slowing down the anti-Jihadi movement by his actions. Surely if Charles alone was such an influence, his turning against the loons should be considered just as potentially influential? Breivik, of course, was paying attention. And he chose not Charles/LGF path, but the path of Fjordman/Geller/Spencer.

Even Justin Raimondo gets it.

I have to add that there is one person who accurately foresaw this coming, and it is none other than my old adversary Charles Johnson, of the “little green footballs” website. Johnson is a former counter-jihadist who balked when his former buddies, like Geller, began palling around with the English Defense League and their continental co-thinkers around the “Gates of Vienna” and Brussels Journal sites. Johnson warned, more than once, that this could lead to nothing but bad-and-crazy, and raised the alarm: unfortunately, no one listened. While I have absolutely nothing in common politically with Johnson – indeed, quite the opposite – I have to give him credit for his remarkable prescience in calling out the dangerous transatlantic alliance between our homegrown haters and the Euro-crazies of Breivik’s sort

That ought to tell them something.

457 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 10:09:36am

re: #418 Lidane

Who is @ChenZhen on Twitter? They keep replying to my Tweets with ancient LGF links.

The Page I posted about Breivik got me a link to an old post about Obesssion from 2006. WTF.

His real name is Bret Elert: [Link: www.linkedin.com...]

458 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 10:10:03am

I know this thread's already dead, but just for the record I don't see how this guy got CO status if this definition is correct:

In the United States, there are two main criteria for classification as a conscientious objector. First, the objector must be opposed to war in any form, Gillette v. United States, 401 U.S. 437. Second, the objection must be sincere, Witmer v. United States, 348 U.S. 375. That he must show that this opposition is based upon religious training and belief was no longer a criterion after cases broadened it to include non-religious moral belief, United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 and Welsh v. United States, 398 U.S. 333. COs willing to perform non-combatant military functions are classed 1-A-O by the U.S.; those unwilling to serve at all are 1-O.

459 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 10:16:51am

re: #451 Sergey Romanov

Breivik, of course, was paying attention. And he chose not Charles/LGF path, but the path of Fjordman/Geller/Spencer.

One of the invaluable services Charles provided was to make the choice crystal clear. That why they hate him more and more as additional proof that he was right comes out.

460 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jul 28, 2011 10:35:11am

re: #459 wrenchwench

One of the invaluable services Charles provided was to make the choice crystal clear. That why they hate him more and more as additional proof that he was right comes out.

I'm sure trying to swallow that bitter pill is triggering a lot of gag reflexes.

461 Rocktheboat  Fri, Jul 29, 2011 12:46:53am

re: #232 Obdicut

'Islamization' flows from appeasing people whose values and norms keep them from embracing liberal standards that are and must remain the bedrock of western society. This is most visible in Europe.

Christian appeasement US-style is equally offensive. Conservatives can freely say they live in a ''christian'' country, put a flag in their churches and buy off lawmakers to enact their ''Christian'' agenda. Europe has a better chance of channeling its Islamization through education and outreach than America has of taming its shameful brand of Christian conservatives. The latter are rich, enact laws they like and write textbooks that amend history and scientific facts.

462 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 29, 2011 4:32:03pm

re: #461 Rocktheboat

'Islamization' flows from appeasing people whose values and norms keep them from embracing liberal standards that are and must remain the bedrock of western society. This is most visible in Europe.

You mean where they have the burqa ban?

463 Rocktheboat  Fri, Jul 29, 2011 9:37:48pm

re: #462 Obdicut

Yes, in some European lands! And what a good thing, too! For everyone! Public safety must prevail over the right of someone to tell his wives to walk around in tents. Would the US also ban driver's licenses to women? Would it ban all visitors from bringing bibles or Star of David symbols into the country? Would it ban alcohol? Would it ban from entering people who have an Israeli customs stamp in their passports? The US and Europe must craft liberal, open and democratic societies on their own terms, not those of Islam.

465 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:16:32am

re: #463 Rocktheboat

Yes, in some European lands! And what a good thing, too! For everyone! Public safety must prevail over the right of someone to tell his wives to walk around in tents.

Public safety? What are you talking about?

Would the US also ban driver's licenses to women? Would it ban all visitors from bringing bibles or Star of David symbols into the country? Would it ban alcohol? Would it ban from entering people who have an Israeli customs stamp in their passports?

What do those have to do with the burqa ban? Or the ban on minarets?

You seem kind of confused.

The US and Europe must craft liberal, open and democratic societies on their own terms, not those of Islam.

Um, they already have. Are you one of those people who's afraid of shariah law taking over the US or something?

466 Rocktheboat  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 4:53:08am

... Public safety? What are you talking about?

Belgium and France ban the burqa arguing anyone must be recognizable in public. You and I must at least see the face of whoever walks next to us in a public street. How gross a violation of religious beliefs is that?

... Would the US also ban driver's licenses to women?

The issue is appeasement. If the US banned burqas out of respect of Islam why not ban alcohol, female drivers or people with Israeli stamps in their passports? Muslims can relate to that.

(Not long ago, an Iranian delegation was to have talks in Brussels. Tehran told the Belgians beforehand they did not want to see alcohol served to anyone at that dinner. The Belgians told them to stay home. Serious question: How do you think that no-alcohol request would have fared by officialdom in Washington?)

I am with you on minarets: banning someone's house of prayer is a non-starter. But everyone should pray inside and not in public, as can happen in Europe.

... Are you one of those people who's afraid of shariah law taking over the US or something?

Not really, but it must be debatable. Europe is more advanced in debating Islam because its impact is palpable there. I think the threat to America's secular nature today comes primarily from conservative Christians who rewrite history and science in textbooks sold nationwide and who raise an American flag in their churches saying they live in a Christian nation.

467 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 5:00:36am

re: #466 Rocktheboat

The issue is appeasement. If the US banned burqas out of respect of Islam why not ban alcohol, female drivers or people with Israeli stamps in their passports? Muslims can relate to that.

Um... the ban on burqas isn't respect of Islam. Kind of the opposite. How can you think otherwise?

I am with you on minarets: banning someone's house of prayer is a non-starter. But everyone should pray inside and not in public, as can happen in Europe.

That is a very anti-Western, anti-Constitutional attitude to take. Why on earth do you think public prayer isn't okay?

Not really, but it must be debatable. Europe is more advanced in debating Islam because its impact is palpable there.

What signs of this 'advancement' do you see?

468 Rocktheboat  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 7:26:30am

... the ban on burqas isn't respect of Islam. Kind of the opposite. How can you think otherwise?

I don't! I think the burqa deserves no respect. It is a medieval dress code that demeans women. But the burqa victim is NOT the wearer. It is you and I because we cannot be sure who walks toward us in public. We cannot see a face. That's unnerving, unsafe.

... Why on earth do you think public prayer isn't okay?

I am all for fitness. But I'm not paying for your tennis lessons or court fees. Pray in private. Or in your church, not in a public school or roadway. I do not want my tax dollar to fund hokus-pokus religious shows. Am I violating anyone's religious beliefs by insisting they have their moments with their God by themselves and not on Main Street?

... What signs of this 'advancement' do you see?

There really is no burqa debate in Europe at all. The silence that followed the enactment of the Belgian and French bans is deafening! Dutch lawmaker Geert Wilders may speak of Islam in unnecessarily crude terms he was acquitted of inciting hatred of Muslims recently. Europe's islamization debate is not a fringe event. It is debated openly and not, by the way, in the shrill US manner of shouting down opponents eating up their 5 seconds of airtime. (That shrillness is in evidence on LGF where the case of that Norwegian lowlife Anders Breivik brings to life above all comments about Pamela Geller! Pamela gives everybody a case of the vapors!)

469 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 7:45:47am

re: #468 Rocktheboat

I am all for fitness. But I'm not paying for your tennis lessons or court fees. Pray in private. Or in your church, not in a public school or roadway. I do not want my tax dollar to fund hokus-pokus religious shows. Am I violating anyone's religious beliefs by insisting they have their moments with their God by themselves and not on Main Street?

Yes, you are. What you're saying is immensely antithetical to Western concepts of freedom of religion and incredibly hostile to the first amendment. If someone wants to bow their head in prayer on a public street it obviously harms no one else.

Your views are incredibly hostile to personal freedoms.

470 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 7:55:00am

re: #468 Rocktheboat

Why don't you leave this dead thread and come on over to the Jon Stewart thread to discuss this?

471 Randall Gross  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 8:43:11am

From the syntax, subject matter, and the tilt I'm thinking that "RocktheBoat" is one of those previously banned far right Flemish nationalists that we used to debate 2006-2008. When it became apparent that they were just apologists for hate bloggers and Eurofascists they usually got banned. Smart money says "Rocktheboat" doesn't make it too much further.

472 Rocktheboat  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 9:46:41am

re: #469 Obdicut

We disagree on whose freedoms are at stake. Thanks for completing the discussion without name calling.

473 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:48:50pm

re: #472 Rocktheboat

No, we don't. Everyone's freedoms are at stake. That's what a democracy is about. And you're willing to throw all religious freedom out in order to satisfy fear of Muslims. That's foolish in the extreme.

474 Rocktheboat  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:08:25pm

em>re: #473 Obdicut

Yes, everyone's freedom is at stake: including my freedom FROM religion. Forget Muslims for now. It is offensive to see conservative Christians put a flag in their church, call this is a Christian nation and start writing text books that mock science and history. That guts American democracy and secularism. Scary.

475 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:06:39am

re: #474 Rocktheboat

But you said they shouldn't be able to pray in a public street. That's complete dictatorial nonsense and incredibly offensive to American values.

476 Rocktheboat  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 9:00:25am

I don't get you! Secularism guarantees my right to be free from your religious rules, teachings and practices. It keeps our government out of religion. So you can be a Christian or a Muslim or a Hindu on your time and anywhere you like, but NOT (NOT!) in a public place like a public school, a state-funded university, a courthouse, a post office or a public street street. This guarantees the rights of believers and non-believers, alike. That is what is great about America. What is not so great about America is the tendency of conservative Christians to ignore this and pretend the USA is a Christian nation. It is not! How do you read secularism?


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 43 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
A Closer Look at the Eastman State Bar DecisionTaking a few minutes away from work things to read through the Eastman decision. As I'm sure many of you know, Eastman was my law school con law professor. I knew him pretty well because I was also running in ...
KGxvi
Yesterday
Views: 98 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 1