Pamela Geller Feebly Explains Edit: ‘Stockpiling Weapons’ is ‘Self Defense’

‘Insensitive, nothing more’
Wingnuts • Views: 55,784

Lunatic anti-Muslim bigot Pamela Geller dredges up one of the lamest excuses in recent memory, to feebly explain away her removal of a violent comment from a deranged Norway emailer: Clarifying the Edit - Atlas Shrugs.

According to the Shrieking Harpy, she edited her four-year old post because it was “insenstive” [sic] to rant about stockpiling weapons.

Back in June 2007 I received an email from a disheartened reader in Norway who was bereft at the deterioration of the society and the lawlessness of life in Norway. It was a heartbreaking email, and I published it at the time: “Email from Norway.”

After the massacre in Norway last week, I removed the following sentence from the email, as I found it insenstive [sic] and inappropriate: “We are stockpiling and caching weapons, ammunition and equipment. This is going to happen fast.”

The sentence I edited is not an incitement to anything. It refers to self-defense, but I removed it in the light of recent horrific events in Norway. I thought it insensitive. Nothing more.

Everyone has a right to self-defense.

The idea that I am scrubbing my archives, or “evidence” as many liars are suggesting, is a blatant lie. I have changed nothing else. But that is irrelevant; destroying the counter jihad movement is paramount at this moment. Even  more farfetched is the lie the lefties (and even the freepers) are advancing: that the email was written by Breivik. Insanity, folks.

Breivik did not write the letter. Many Norwegians see their country imploding. The email was not written by Breivik, and contrary to popular leftist belief, not every Norwegian is Anders Breivik.

The smear merchants and destroyers trying to tie me to Breivik are engaging in another fallacious attack on those of us who are fighting against supremacism, violence and evil.

This is orwellian propaganda.

Here is the original post before the sentence was edited out.

Do I even need to point out how ridiculously disingenuous this post is?

It’s “self defense” to stockpile weapons and ammunition to fight against … a sick paranoid fantasy? Geller’s correspondent apparently believes we’re in the End Times, and he’s hoarding weapons, but we’re supposed to think he’s only interested in self defense?

More to the point, and in light of the atrocities in Norway committed by someone who believed many of the same things as this “anonymous” emailer, why hasn’t Pamela Geller reported this threatening email to the Norwegian authorities?

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327 comments
1 Kragar  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:25:16am

Yeah, like dressing as a cop and defending yourself from a bunch of unarmed kids at a summer camp.

2 albusteve  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:25:47am

Geller won't rat out her ideological compatriots

3 AK-47%  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:26:38am

I understand (without agreeing with the AJ crowd) that if thier perceived threat to Western Civilzation is so great, then they have a right to mobilize, to get vocal and to spread their message through demonstrations, protests and various media channels.

But a civilized society has to draw the line at planning, preparing or executing mass mayhem.

4 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:30:43am

If the guy's weapons are legal and he's not plotting anything there's nothing to fear by having the police investigate him.

5 mr.fusion  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:31:52am

The entire damn "Email from Norway" was insensitive, so why didn't she pull the whole thing?

For that matter, if she's worried about sensitivities it might be time to shut down AtlasShrugged

6 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:33:27am

Key point here: she posted it anonymously because she says he could be prosecuted there.

7 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:34:06am

A nice mention from Gawker:The Anti-Islam Blogger and the Weapons-Stockpiling Norwegian

Characteristically, Geller didn't acknowledge the edit until she was called out by Little Green Football's Charles Johnson and others. Today, in a post entitled "Clarifying the Edit," she says that the letter is not from Breivik (we'll take her word for it), and writes that she edited it out of sensitivity concerns "in the light of recent horrific events in Norway."

Uh-huh. "Sensitivity concerns" is a much more believable excuse than embarrassment over her admiring publication of an email from a Norwegian with the same violent, xenophobic worldview as Breivik. In fact, we're sure she's been in contact with Norwegian authorities regarding her correspondence with a weapons-stockpiling far-right Norwegian "anti-Jihadist"! Probably it's a false-flag email from a Muslim anyway! As Pamela says, "If anyone incited [Breivik] to violence, it was Islamic supremacists."

8 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:34:38am

She's always wearing a necklace with a pendant that says "LOVE".

I don't think she knows what it means.

Likewise, I don't think she knows the meaning of "insensitive".

9 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:35:06am
Bored rich moron Pamela Geller is a big deal in the internet anti-Islam scene, thanks to her unreadable blog Atlas Shrugs.


heh

10 MichaelJ  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:35:08am

More to the point, why is Geller editing the words of someone else while protecting their anonymity? How does that qualify as merely being a "sensitive" edit?

11 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:35:22am

re: #7 Killgore Trout

Gawker, Sully, Hurry up Harry. Any other biggies?

12 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:36:11am

re: #7 Killgore Trout

A nice mention from Gawker:The Anti-Islam Blogger and the Weapons-Stockpiling Norwegian

Again. So much for irrelevance aye? ;)

13 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:36:15am

re: #8 wrenchwench

She's always wearing a necklace with a pendant that says "LOVE".

I don't think she knows what it means.

Likewise, I don't think she knows the meaning of "insensitive".

Lol, I didn't even notice that in the gawker pic.

14 mikec6666  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:36:43am

"as many liars suggest" -- no just Charles you crazy b!tch. He's the one that busted you. Others may have picked up the story too, but he's the one that cornered you like the rat you are.

Go Charles!

15 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:37:10am

A couple of weapons is self defense. An arsenal is something else (I do not want to go there).

16 Charleston Chew  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:37:14am

re: #3 ralphieboy

But a civilized society has to draw the line at planning, preparing or executing mass mayhem.

That's putting it too delicately.

I want to go on record that I'm vehemently opposed to insane killing sprees, but more than that I'm vehemently opposed to a world in which I actually have to say that because there really are some people trying to debate the merits of it.

Seriously, let me break this complex issue down:

Insane mass murderers = bad.

Can't the whole world just agree on this one little thing?

17 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:38:06am

re: #15 PhillyPretzel

A couple of weapons is self defense. An arsenal is something else (I do not want to go there).

A very good point.

18 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:38:08am

re: #11 Sergey Romanov

Gawker, Sully, Hurry up Harry. Any other biggies?

No MSM coverage....yet.

19 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:38:10am

re: #15 PhillyPretzel

A couple of weapons is self defense. An arsenal is something else (I do not want to go there).

And one of the keys here being the statement "[t]his is going to happen fast."

20 jaunte  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:38:26am

The entire Muslim population of Norway (not the radical jihadist population, but all self-identified Muslims) is only 3.4% of the population. Stockpiling arms against the 'threat' is an extreme overreaction on its face, and deserves exposure and mockery.

21 Kragar  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:38:54am

re: #8 wrenchwench

She's always wearing a necklace with a pendant that says "LOVE".

I don't think she knows what it means.

Likewise, I don't think she knows the meaning of "insensitive".

She took it in the mirror, and she spelled Evil wrong.

22 Charleston Chew  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:39:16am

re: #8 wrenchwench

She's always wearing a necklace with a pendant that says "LOVE".

Maybe that's just her id badge from the Ministry Of Love

23 laZardo  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:39:20am

re: #16 Charleston Chew

That's putting it too delicately.

I want to go on record that I'm vehemently opposed to insane killing sprees, but more than that I'm vehemently opposed to a world in which I actually have to say that because there really are some people trying to debate the merits of it.

Seriously, let me break this complex issue down:

Insane mass murderers = bad.

Can't the whole world just agree on this one little thing?

Maybe not.

But we can nominate it for rotating title. :x

24 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:39:29am

re: #20 jaunte

The entire Muslim population of Norway (not the radical jihadist population, but all self-identified Muslims) is only 3.4% of the population. Stockpiling arms against the 'threat' is an extreme overreaction on its face, and deserves exposure and mockery.

The moron said 50% of Oslo is Muslim. Which qualifies him as a deranged lunatic there and then.

25 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:40:20am

re: #22 Charleston Chew

Maybe that's just her id badge from the Ministry Of Love

Now that makes sense.

26 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:40:21am

re: #22 Charleston Chew

Maybe that's just her id badge from the Ministry Of Love

That's a bingo!

27 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:40:35am

re: #20 jaunte

The entire Muslim population of Norway (not the radical jihadist population, but all self-identified Muslims) is only 3.4% of the population. Stockpiling arms against the 'threat' is an extreme overreaction on its face, and deserves exposure and mockery.

"Self defense" from an unarmed populace no less. A population that includes children. So when Geller claims "self defense" she's including "self defense" from Islamic children in a minority population.

28 albusteve  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:42:11am

re: #27 Gus 802

"Self defense" from an unarmed populace no less. A population that includes children. So when Geller claims "self defense" she's including "self defense" from Islamic children in a minority population.

by self defense, he must be referring to a siege when the authorities come to bust him

29 jaunte  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:42:47am

re: #27 Gus 802

One of Geller's commenters reminds everyone who the true killers are:

...the murder by tongue via the left marxists is causing more death and destruction around the world than the man in Norway ever could, You are all enabling over 11,000 murders by terrorists every year, And to put this on one woman who is working to end death, and violence towards men, children and woman everywhere shows who the REAL hypocrite is,


Murder by tongue!

30 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:43:09am

re: #24 Sergey Romanov

The moron said 50% of Oslo is Muslim. Which qualifies him as a deranged lunatic there and then.

Oh, now I get it. He sees Muslims everywhere like antisemites see Jews everywhere. Crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims, you know.

31 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:43:11am

A creepy and cryptic post from Robert Spencer this morning....
Victory is in sight

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

We moved from the first stage to the second in the last year or so, and from the second stage to the third in the last week.

We have no money. We have no powerful friends. We have no media connections. We have no resources.

All we have is the truth. And that means that victory is assured.


Posted by Robert on July 30, 2011 11:15 AM

Being the inspiration for a major terrorist atack on children is a "win"?
WTF?

32 Charleston Chew  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:45:05am

re: #29 jaunte

One of Geller's commenters reminds everyone who the true killers are:


Murder by tongue!

That's how I want to go.

33 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:45:42am

re: #15 PhillyPretzel

A couple of weapons is self defense. An arsenal is something else (I do not want to go there).

I think Breivik's and the emailer's senses of "self" encompass all of "Western Civilization", so they need LOTS of weapons.

34 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:45:58am

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Ah, the 3rd is "fight", i get it now. Still kinda creepy.

35 dragonfire1981  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:46:53am

Fox News still has the spin machine going full bore on Anders Breivik. I don't know the name of the woman speaking but she's basically castigating the media for jumping on the "Christian" label.

The she says he was NOT right wing because he supposedly supported a "one child policy" and other forms of government control.

Another guest just called him a "lone madman"

Now they are comparing to the Abdo thing. I don't know what paper that guy is reading, but the story I read and Abdo clearly identified him as a Muslim (not in the headline, but in the body).

36 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:47:00am

re: #32 Charleston Chew
Sarcasm in the 1st degree?

37 Digital Display  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:47:04am

re: #15 PhillyPretzel

A couple of weapons is self defense. An arsenal is something else (I do not want to go there).

Good Afternoon Philly..Hope you are well this boiling Saturday...
My Uncle is a gun nut ..If you go into his basement you could equip an platoon.. I mean he must have every cool gun known to man.. It's fun checking it out..I'm not really into guns..But what the hay? Pretty cool..
Now..When he writes a 1500 page manifesto I'm calling the FBI and SWAT.
Pam..Can you differentiate between guns and inciting anti-Muslim hatred on the Internet and your Blog? I'd say you have a whole lot more editing to be doing at your site..

38 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:47:06am

So, she's going to completely gloss over the fact that in the comments she states that she published the letter anonymously in order to thwart Norwegian hate speech laws. Quelle surprise.

39 jaunte  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:47:13am

re: #32 Charleston Chew

I'm sure whoever posted that considers themselves a staunch defender of free speech.

40 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:47:13am

re: #33 wrenchwench

I think Breivik's and the emailer's senses of "self" encompass all of "Western Civilization", so they need LOTS of weapons.

Time to get the Thorazine Spray™. //

41 jaunte  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:49:23am

re: #35 dragonfire1981

Fox News still has the spin machine going full bore on Anders Breivik.


"Paranoid loner 'defender of Christendom' definitely not Christian."

42 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:50:34am

re: #29 jaunte

One of Geller's commenters reminds everyone who the true killers are:

Murder by tongue!

These people are dangerous. Geller's followers are literally a hive of extremist nutjobs that are worthy of being watched by Homeland Security and the FBI.

43 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:50:35am

Racists are the ultimate narcissists. They only love themselves, but stretch to include their relatives and racial cohorts to form a community of those most like themselves. So defenders of Western Civilization could actually believe they are engaged in self defense.

Image: 2d783f0f-20da-43e6-a1a3-9c42a841fc66.jpg

44 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:52:03am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

heh

BURN!

45 Lidane  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:55:37am

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Being the inspiration for a major terrorist attack on children is a "win"?
WTF?

But they were liberals, not children. Don't you know that they're the next generation who will lead us down the path of Sharia Law?

///

God, these people are insane. Absolute, bugfuck insane. I wouldn't want to live in their delusions.

46 AK-47%  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:57:03am

re: #35 dragonfire1981

As John Stesart pointed out, the cross on the cover of his 1,500 page manifesto about defending western christianity was a bit of a giveaway

But I will repeat the talking point that founds the basis off all their reporting:

True Christians (C) do not commit mass murder because jesus forbids it

But True Muslims (TM) commit mass murder because Mohammed commands it. In fact, those Muslims who simply live peacefully and quietly without committing or condoning mass murder are not True Muslims!!!

47 simoom  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:58:16am

The House pre-vote on the potential-future Harry Reid debt ceiling bill is underway (no time machine required!).

48 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 11:59:35am

re: #15 PhillyPretzel

A couple of weapons is self defense. An arsenal is something else (I do not want to go there).

It really depends on the mind behind the guns. If it's a collector who has purchased 1911A1s from different manufacturers in order to have a set pistols from every factory that built the .45 in WWII, that's not a problem even if its 12 pistols. But if someone else acquires those same 12 pistols for the purpose of arming his cell for a killing spree, that's a different matter.

49 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:00:15pm

re: #46 ralphieboy

As John Stesart pointed out, the cross on the cover of his 1,500 page manifesto about defending western christianity was a bit of a giveaway

But I will repeat the talking point that founds the basis off all their reporting:

True Christians (C) do not commit mass murder because jesus forbids it

But True Muslims (TM) commit mass murder because Mohammed commands it. In fact, those Muslims who simply live peacefully and quietly without committing or condoning mass murder are not True Muslims!!!

1. The US has killed over 100,000 civilians in Iraq since 2003 according to their own figures.
1. True Christians do not commit mass murder.
3. Therefore American isn't a Christian nation.

50 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:01:34pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon
I know a few collectors and that is what they do. They will buy a few of one model and put them into storage or carefully use them.

51 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:03:04pm

re: #47 simoom

The House pre-vote on the potential-future Harry Reid debt ceiling bill is underway (no time machine required!).

At first I was a little worried about that but I think they're rushing along the formalities because they're running out of time. The House has to approve whatever the senate offers them next or we're fucked.

52 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:03:30pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

Will that happen today?

53 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:03:46pm

re: #49 Alexzander

1. The US has killed over 100,000 civilians in Iraq since 2003 according to their own figures.
1. True Christians do not commit mass murder.
3. Therefore American isn't a Christian nation.

Our actions in Iraq have not been mass murder. I will also note that those figures are for total deaths and do not distinguish between civilians accidentally killed by American and Iraqi military forces and those murdered by terrorists and insurgents.

54 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:04:06pm

re: #49 Alexzander

1. The US has killed over 100,000 civilians in Iraq since 2003 according to their own figures.
1. True Christians do not commit mass murder.
3. Therefore American isn't a Christian nation.

[Link: www.army.mil...]

Image: 450x375-alg_rifle_bible_verse.jpg

55 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:05:58pm

re: #52 Alexzander

Will that happen today?

I don't know. I think I saw mention of Monday but I'm not sure.

56 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:06:04pm

re: #52 Alexzander
I believe they are in session today. It may happen.

57 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:06:18pm

re: #49 Alexzander

1. The US has killed over 100,000 civilians in Iraq since 2003 according to their own figures.
1. True Christians do not commit mass murder.
3. Therefore American isn't a Christian nation.

You may have a point, but you used misinformation to convey it.

58 simoom  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:06:43pm

re: #47 simoom

8 Dem 'nays' so far (was expecting more as the CBC is still pushing for a clean debt ceiling increase) and 1 GOP defection (that keeps switching back and forth -- not sure if it will be there in the end) with ~2/3rds of the votes locked in.

59 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:07:38pm

Oh, folks, this is RICH! A comment defending Pam:

Patrick in Michigan on the iPod said...

Alright God damn it! This one is bringing me out of the shadows.

To the two bit mother fuckers, who want to hang this tragedy on Pamela Geller:

ENOUGH!

Pamela Geller is no more responsible for the fucking Norway shooting than say, like me!

To Gawker.com:
Anti-Semite much, assholes?!!


I mean, would you be that hard on Pam, if she were not Jewish? I doubt it.

This stupid bullshit has got to stop!

Chuck Johnson cam go fuck himself. This is madness.

Patrick Adkins
Owner
Politicalbyline.com

Why, it's the same Adkins who attacked some neocon bloggers as "Jew Ass Kissers"?

Sorry for FrontPageMag link:

[Link: frontpagemag.com...]

60 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:07:39pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Our actions in Iraq have not been mass murder. I will also note that those figures are for total deaths and do not distinguish between civilians accidentally killed by American and Iraqi military forces and those murdered by terrorists and insurgents.

Classified Iraq war logs: 104,924 recorded Iraqi deaths, including 92,003 (or 66,081 civilian deaths (depending on the document).
And that is just up to 2009. I'm sure you can add quite a few more deaths since then.
Throw in 3 Afhgan children on average who get killed in the crossfire everyday in Afghanistan.

What would qualify as mass murder for you?

61 Digital Display  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:07:50pm

The man wanted to fight Muslims in.. So he had a couple choices
He could kill defenseless children on an Island.. Or he could packed it up and buy a plane ticket to Afghanistan and really fight some Muslims...
He choose the former because he knew he'd get his punk ass killed fighting the Tali...
Coward

62 AK-47%  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:09:11pm

re: #49 Alexzander

Christians are allowed a bit of collateral damage if it's self-defense.

Their point is that according to Islam, Muslims are required to commit acts of mayhem in the name of religion, whereas Christians are allowed to only in self-defense (against marauding Musilms, for example).

I looked into it, there have been two Islamic terror attacks in Norway, an assasination attempt in 1993 and an attack on a Synagogue in 2006, neither resulted in fatalities.

But i guess to some people, this would justify pre-emptive mass-murder of sympathizers to the Islamist cause.

63 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:09:21pm

It could happen this weekend. From The Wall Street Journal: Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D., Nev.) has scheduled a series of votes beginning Sunday morning at 1 a.m. on his proposal to raise the debt ceiling by $2.4 trillion, though whether or not he can garner the 60 votes necessary to move forward with the bill remains in question.

64 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:10:51pm

re: #59 Sergey Romanov

And if you don't want to click on the link, here's what else Patrick wrote:

For the Record….:

Bill Kristol is a JEW

Andrew BreitBart is a JEW

Pamela Geller is a JEW

Matt Drudge is a JEW

John Podhoretz is a JEW

The people I have listed, are the one’s who are shrieking the loudest about this Mosque; and yes, they are ALL JEWS. Does that make me an Anti-Semite? No. It does not. It makes me someone, who is aware of the facts —- That the Neo-Conservative JEWS are making this damned Mosque a political issue, instead of a local issue.

I can tolerate diversity of opinion, but damned dirty pool, I will not tolerate and I will expose these idiots for what they are and that are the lying scum that they are.

There is nothing I cannot STAND worse than Identity Politics of the LEFT and that is the Identity Politics and under-handed crap of the Zionist right!

Nice try guys, but this is White American Conservative that is not buying this little stunt!

65 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:11:38pm

re: #64 Sergey Romanov

But now he loves Pam. Even though she "is a JEW".

66 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:12:56pm

re: #62 ralphieboy

Christians are allowed a bit of collateral damage if it's self-defense...

I don't know why but that line made me laugh because it's so true. Especially in light that Iraq had relatively nothing to do with 9/11 yet we went ahead and invaded Iraq under the premise of WMDs which never existed. I'd be will to say that the Iraq casualties were not murder in the traditional sense of the word. Perhaps under the Geneva convention this could be worded as being "legal"? I don't know. However, in the eyes of impoverished Muslims in the Middle East they will see it as murder. As they see Americans as "Christian invaders". We may not agree with this but that's how it's perceived.

67 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:12:58pm

re: #30 Sergey Romanov

Oh, now I get it. He sees Muslims everywhere like antisemites see Jews everywhere. Crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims, you know.

Yeah, conspiratorial, paranoid thinking.

68 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:13:31pm

re: #62 ralphieboy

My point is that it is very easy to fling around the notion of mass murder as if everyone can clearly see what does and doesn't count.
To many people around the world, the US government is a pretty obvious psychotic mass murdering entity.

69 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:13:36pm

re: #60 Alexzander

Classified Iraq war logs: 104,924 recorded Iraqi deaths, including 92,003 (or 66,081 civilian deaths (depending on the document).
And that is just up to 2009. I'm sure you can add quite a few more deaths since then.
Throw in 3 Afhgan children on average who get killed in the crossfire everyday in Afghanistan.

What would qualify as mass murder for you?

War is war, and in populated areas it leads to casualties. We do our best to keep civilian loss of life to a minimum. Our enemies do not and actively to murder civilians to control the survivors. Right now, most civilian casualties in Afghanistan are due to the Taliban. We're not at fault for people being murdered by those fanatics.

70 jaunte  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:13:55pm

re: #59 Sergey Romanov

Adkins was apparently blocked here once, and just can't let it go.

71 Gepetto  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:14:25pm

re: #60 Alexzander

Classified Iraq war logs: 104,924 recorded Iraqi deaths, including 92,003 (or 66,081 civilian deaths (depending on the document).
And that is just up to 2009. I'm sure you can add quite a few more deaths since then.
Throw in 3 Afhgan children on average who get killed in the crossfire everyday in Afghanistan.

What would qualify as mass murder for you?

if it does, then the commander in chief iwas and is a mass murderer.

72 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:15:07pm

re: #64 Sergey Romanov

And if you don't want to click on the link, here's what else Patrick wrote:

For the Record….:

Bill Kristol is a JEW

Andrew BreitBart is a JEW

Pamela Geller is a JEW

Matt Drudge is a JEW

John Podhoretz is a JEW

The people I have listed, are the one’s who are shrieking the loudest about this Mosque; and yes, they are ALL JEWS. Does that make me an Anti-Semite? No. It does not. It makes me someone, who is aware of the facts —- That the Neo-Conservative JEWS are making this damned Mosque a political issue, instead of a local issue.

I can tolerate diversity of opinion, but damned dirty pool, I will not tolerate and I will expose these idiots for what they are and that are the lying scum that they are.

There is nothing I cannot STAND worse than Identity Politics of the LEFT and that is the Identity Politics and under-handed crap of the Zionist right!

Nice try guys, but this is White American Conservative Nazi that is not buying this little stunt!

Edited for accuracy.

73 Gepetto  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:15:16pm

re: #71 Gepetto

is and was

74 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:16:18pm

re: #68 Alexzander

To many people around the world, the US government is a pretty obvious psychotic mass murdering entity.

That is correct. Again. We may not agree with that sentiment but that is indeed how the USA is perceived.

75 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:16:37pm

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

War is war, and in populated areas it leads to casualties. We do our best to keep civilian loss of life to a minimum. Our enemies do not and actively to murder civilians to control the survivors. Right now, most civilian casualties in Afghanistan are due to the Taliban. We're not at fault for people being murdered by those fanatics.

We may not be directly at fault but we played a big huge role (since at least 1979) in creating the circumstances for Afghanistan's disfunction.

76 simoom  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:16:50pm

ROFL, they just followed up their multi-trillion-dollar vote under a suspension of the House rules with a vote on naming a post office under suspension of the House rules (illustrating what that process is typically used for quite brilliantly). Then they all went home.

77 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:17:13pm

re: #65 Sergey Romanov

But now he loves Pam. Even though she "is a JEW".

She's useful for fighting the Muslims, so she's OK for now. After they get get done with the deportations, they'll get around to calling for Geller's head for "sinister Jewish machinations". The times change, but the lies told about Jews stay the same.

78 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:18:32pm

BBL

79 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:18:53pm

re: #64 Sergey Romanov

And if you don't want to click on the link, here's what else Patrick wrote:

I'm afraid what we have here is a massive case of cognitive dissonance.

80 Digital Display  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:19:18pm

Programming note: They are qualifying out at Indy on ESPN.. I love that track.. Wish I was there right now..*sniff* I'm going to Indy for the Superbowl..I'll be live blogging in the pages the events there on my laptop..
So I know all my Hoosier Buddies are there somewhere drinking beer and walking around with their shirts off having a blast..
The race is Sunday at noon EST on ESPN..Don't forget to watch
Now back to your regularly scheduled blog..

81 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:21:36pm

Norway attacks: Breivik 'had other targets'

...

The man who admitted the bomb and gun attacks which rocked Norway has said under interrogation he had other targets, police say.

Anders Behring Breivik was questioned for 10 hours on Friday to verify details from previous sessions and answer new points.

Police would not confirm reports that he had also wanted to attack the palace and Labour Party headquarters.

...

He said his client continued to show no remorse, saying the killings were "a necessary act... a war against the rule by Muslims".

...

82 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:21:43pm

re: #79 Gus 802

I'm afraid what we have here is a massive case of cognitive dissonance.

IOW, You can't explain that!

83 Mark Winter  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:21:51pm

"Many Norwegians see their country imploding."

I know Norway. And many Norwegians. Maybe there are some Norwegians who thing that way but I haven't met them.

Utoya was exactly the opposite. The proof that most young Norwegians and "new" Norwegians" are living peacefully together, share the same ideals, are fighting for the same free and tolerant country.

THIS is what the killer couldn't tolerate. Not the "imploding country" nonsense. This is what makes him a Nazi.

84 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:23:19pm

3,460 people on LGF now.
The referrers page is hopping. I see reddit picked up the story. Not bad for a lazy Saturday afternoon.

85 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:24:05pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

3,460 people on LGF now.
The referrers page is hopping. I see reddit picked up the story. Not bad for a lazy Saturday afternoon.

And not bad for an irrelevant little blog. /

86 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:24:17pm

re: #83 Mark Winter


THIS is what the killer couldn't tolerate. Not the "imploding country" nonsense. This is what makes him a Nazi.

Sergey; what's your take on calling the shooter a nazi? From what I remember in his manifesto, he was anti-nazi, but maybe I remember it incorrectly.

87 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:24:27pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

She's useful for fighting the Muslims, so she's OK for now. After they get get done with the deportations, they'll get around to calling for Geller's head for "sinister Jewish machinations". The times change, but the lies told about Jews stay the same.

and underpin their paranoia the same, too.

Aholes.

88 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:24:43pm

re: #82 Sergey Romanov

IOW, You can't explain that!

I sure can't. It's like the scorpion and the frog. They're all joined together by one goal which is to oppose Muslim immigrations (amongst many other things) while being traditional enemies. They have completely ascribed to "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

89 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:26:01pm

re: #83 Mark Winter

"Many Norwegians see their country imploding."

I know Norway. And many Norwegians. Maybe there are some Norwegians who thing that way but I haven't met them.

Utoya was exactly the opposite. The proof that most young Norwegians and "new" Norwegians" are living peacefully together, share the same ideals, are fighting for the same free and tolerant country.

THIS is what the killer couldn't tolerate. Not the "imploding country" nonsense. This is what makes him a Nazi.

Breivik had to murder those who were proving his manifesto WRONG.

90 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:26:02pm

re: #86 Alexzander

Sergey; what's your take on calling the shooter a nazi? From what I remember in his manifesto, he was anti-nazi, but maybe I remember it incorrectly.

Oh no, not again./

In the informal sense in which I called my previous target a Nazi he is a Nazi.

If I were writing an academic article I wouldn't call him a Nazi, of course.

91 AK-47%  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:29:03pm

re: #90 Sergey Romanov

Oh no, not again./

In the informal sense in which I called my previous target a Nazi he is a Nazi.

If I were writing an academic article I wouldn't call him a Nazi, of course.


Ix-nay on the Azi-nay, okay?

92 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:29:25pm

crazy senior lady from athens texas on cspan right now saying obama is not american.

93 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:30:34pm

re: #90 Sergey Romanov

Oh no, not again./

In the informal sense in which I called my previous target a Nazi he is a Nazi.

If I were writing an academic article I wouldn't call him a Nazi, of course.

I just think its worth keeping our hate group/ideologies clear. Sometimes I wish I worked for the ADL or SPLC on this kind of thing.

94 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:30:43pm

re: #91 ralphieboy

Ix-nay on the Azi-nay, okay?

Sorry, no promises :P

Although the possibility of a boring long debate will make me think thrice the next time ;)

95 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:31:22pm

re: #83 Mark Winter

This is what makes him a Nazi.

I wouldn't call him a Nazi. He denounces nazism several times in his manifesto, along with Islam, Communism, Multiculturalism and Marxism. For sure, his denouncing of nazism has a lot to do with nazism being "unpopular" (the same reason why he denounces racism, even though he clearly is a white nationalist, albeit of the ethnopluralistic variant, i.e. he is "liberal" enough to let other people have "black power", "brown power", etc.), but also with nazism's imperialism (he scolds the Nazi Party for having had expansionist policies instead of isolationist ones) and nazism's supression of conservatism and conservatives. Probably also him identifying with Norwegian nationalism and Norway's history in relation to Nazi Germany played a big role.

See also his self-made Templar badge: [Link: www.google.com...]

96 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:31:34pm

re: #86 Alexzander

Sergey; what's your take on calling the shooter a nazi? From what I remember in his manifesto, he was anti-nazi, but maybe I remember it incorrectly.

I'm reading it and can say he/fjordman/whomever he's copy/pasting look down on Nazis but wish to coalition with them. They feel Nazis (i.e. Third Reich) and neo-Nazis discredit themselves and by extension European nationalist movements by using white supremacist rhetoric as opposed to "playing the victim card" -- his term.

97 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:31:36pm

re: #93 Alexzander

I just think its worth keeping our hate group/ideologies clear. Sometimes I wish I worked for the ADL or SPLC on this kind of thing.

When I compare someone with Nazis or call someone with a Nazi, it is in an informal context. So I think all is clear.

98 jaunte  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:31:55pm

William Couch: That thing the fog does


"From the roof of my apartment, around golden hour after work."
99 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:32:18pm

re: #92 Alexzander

crazy senior lady from athens texas on cspan right now saying obama is not american.

Call-in? CSPAN really attracts the loons.

100 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:33:23pm

re: #92 Alexzander

crazy senior lady from athens texas on cspan right now saying obama is not american.

Is this the McCain lady of "Obama is an Arab"-"No, he is a decent man" fame? /

101 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:34:04pm

re: #99 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Call-in? CSPAN really attracts the loons.

Any forum that's unmoderated does. CSPAN does not moderate its calls but says "thank you" for any call-in tirade, no matter how insane and non-sequitur. Ergo…

102 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:34:55pm

re: #95 000G

He also seems to be a fan of the popular rightwing "nazism was socialism" canard, for which he cites mises.org.

103 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:35:45pm

The obvious.

Breivik, and others of his ilk, sees the left/liberal/multicultural factions as facilitators of a "Muslim invasion." Therefore, Breivik, et al, see the same left/liberal/multicultural factions as the enemy much like they see Muslims since they are perceived as co-conspirators to said "Muslim invasion".

104 albusteve  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:36:01pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

3,460 people on LGF now.
The referrers page is hopping. I see reddit picked up the story. Not bad for a lazy Saturday afternoon.

I'm here dodging anything written in purple....really convenient

105 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:36:28pm

re: #98 jaunte

William Couch: That thing the fog does

[Video]

Those are some damn big cat feet.

/not Sandburg

106 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:36:48pm

re: #100 Sergey Romanov

Is this the McCain lady of "Obama is an Arab"-"No, he is a decent man" fame? /

Twitter dump...

RankinDems Rankin Co. Democrats
Caller to CSpan from Texas says Obama is "not American", and she knows this because her husband served in the military.
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

papicek
papicek papicek
TX caller on CSPAN: "Obama is not American" and she has proof! (Her dead husband was a Marine and he knows all) She gets gov't benefits, too
7 minutes ago

Ryan Teague Beckwith
ryanbeckwith Ryan Teague Beckwith
Kudos to @cspan host for challenging caller who says Obama is not an American. Her evidence? "My husband that died in the military."
8 minutes ago

Just lil ole C
CiciLaw Just lil ole C
Wow this dumb lady just called into CSPAN (from Texas btw) and said Obama isn't american smh SHUT UP!!!
9 minutes ago

Holly Tooker
kellabeck Holly Tooker
"Obama is not American" She has PROOF! Here's your ignorant REPUBLICAN voter, folks, calling in to Cspan from Texas. #p2
9 minutes ago

107 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:37:11pm

re: #95 000G

The isolationist part is a good point. I'm not sure how long that would actually last, though, if a paranoid white supremacists state came into being again.

108 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:37:35pm

re: #101 000G

Reminds me of this classic moment

lol smh

109 Mark Winter  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:37:38pm

re: #95 000G

I wouldn't call him a Nazi. He denounces nazism several times in his manifesto, along with Islam, Communism, Multiculturalism and Marxism. For sure, his denouncing of nazism has a lot to do with nazism being "unpopular" (the same reason why he denounces racism, even though he clearly is a white nationalist, albeit of the ethnopluralistic variant, i.e. he is "liberal" enough to let other people have "black power", "brown power", etc.), but also with nazism's imperialism (he scolds the Nazi Party for having had expansionist policies instead of isolationist ones) and nazism's supression of conservatism and conservatives. Probably also him identifying with Norwegian nationalism and Norway's history in relation to Nazi Germany played a big role.

See also his self-made Templar badge: [Link: www.google.com...]

His mindset is that of a Nazi. It doesn't matter what he writes about the historical Nazi party.

110 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:37:40pm

re: #106 Gus 802

What is this, I don't even

111 Olsonist  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:38:49pm

Geller was an official blogger at the 2008 Republican National Convention. Geller was at the 2011 CPAC.

Still, regardless how this editing thing plays out, I'll bet she's at the RNC next year. And I'll bet she's at CPAC next year. I'm no big fan of Ronald Reagan, he of the 11th commandment, but even Reagan drew the line at David Duke.

Unless Republicans actively condemn her, she's just part of the big tent. That won't happen. So while some people here will refer to her as the shrieking harpy Pamela Geller, I'll refer to her as the Republican Pamela Geller.

112 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:39:47pm

re: #104 albusteve

I'm here dodging anything written in purple...really convenient

...

What's the matter you don't like the color purple?

//

Sarcasm slashes added for extra effect.

113 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:40:23pm

re: #107 Obdicut

The isolationist part is a good point. I'm not sure how long that would actually last, though, if a paranoid white supremacists state came into being again.

One of Hitler's rationals for his expansionist policies was liberating the ethnic Germans "trapped" or "suppressed" in the other nation states in Post-World-War-I Europe. This has a lot to do with the very flexible, ethnocentric citizenship model that a lot of European states, especially Germany (to this day) cling to. A paranoid white supremacist state would probably find a lot of "lost brothers" to liberate soon. Breivik dreamed of a crusade to liberate Jerusalem...

114 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:41:07pm

[derail]
This is spiffy. If you do not agree, I will fight you.

115 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:41:46pm

re: #109 Mark Winter

His mindset is that of a Nazi. It doesn't matter what he writes about the historical Nazi party.

I don't know what you mean by "mindset of a nazi", then.

116 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:42:47pm

re: #113 000G

Exactly. I really doubt they'd remain isolationist in regards to the current border dispute the Serbs are having, for example.

117 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:44:38pm

A lot of these people are living in a fantasy world. Obviously Breivik was living in a fantasy world with his "Knights Templar". Then you have these buffoons calling themselves noble like names like "Fjordman" and "Baron Bodissey." Baron? What does this moron have to do with a baron? Even Pamela Geller "dresses" herself up in a Superman costume.

118 Digital Display  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:47:10pm

re: #112 Gus 802

...

Sarcasm slashes added for extra effect.

Mmmm..
Pink tag for all code pink speak
Green tag For everything Al Gore has ever written or said.. Hey Al What's with saving the Planet? Effen the planet! What has it ever done for us?
Blue tag for all the wacky things the far left says
Red, White and blue tag : USA! USA!
Yellow tag for anything Congress does

119 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:47:51pm

re: #117 Gus 802

Actually, it's really ironic that he's named that. Baron Bodissey is a character from a novel.

One quote from Boron Bodissey (the real one, not this bigot pretender)

On religious wars] of all wars, these are the most detestable, since they are waged for no tangible gain, but only to impose a set of arbitrary credos on another

Of course, the idiot Baron would say it's the Muslims that are fighting a war for religion, not him. That's what a lot of people involved in religious wars think.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

120 albusteve  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:48:27pm

re: #117 Gus 802

A lot of these people are living in a fantasy world. Obviously Breivik was living in a fantasy world with his "Knights Templar". Then you have these buffoons calling themselves noble like names like "Fjordman" and "Baron Bodissey." Baron? What does this moron have to do with a baron? Even Pamela Geller "dresses" herself up in a Superman costume.

on that level, the entire gig is cartoonish...unfortunately most of these boobs are operating within the law and there is no stopping them at that point....HS should drag Geller into a cell and give her a nice long lecture, but that's not gonna happen either...the forces of bad have the edge

121 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:48:55pm

re: #109 Mark Winter

His mindset is that of a Nazi. It doesn't matter what he writes about the historical Nazi party.

The historical Nazi party and today's neo-Nazis. The manifesto is a lot closer to Third Posisition than nazism. In the end, yeah, they're all a bunch of eliminationist bigots just with slightly different focuses and rhetoric, but very similar goals.

122 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:50:46pm

re: #119 Obdicut

Actually, it's really ironic that he's named that. Baron Bodissey is a character from a novel.

One quote from Boron Bodissey (the real one, not this bigot pretender)

Of course, the idiot Baron would say it's the Muslims that are fighting a war for religion, not him. That's what a lot of people involved in religious wars think.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I tend to think of Baron Moron Bodissey as a white supremacist. That is quite the irony you point to. It's amazing these little internet fantasy worlds they've created for themselves. Like they're playing "dress up" like when they were children. "I am the anti-Jihad internet warrior and I will fight with my keyboard in hand to the last bloody end!!11ty" It is like they're "playing war".

123 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:51:11pm

re: #117 Gus 802

A lot of these people are living in a fantasy world.

Just skimming through Breivik's manifesto and keeping in mind how a lot of people almost lauded him for being so intelligent and lucid and all... Notice how he will ascribe very precise percentage values to a lot of things and qualities (e.g. his own fitness). At first this struck me as odd but only later I realized that it seemed odd because for a lot of these values he has no factual basis at all. It's just what he feels like they should be. But he writes them down as if they are empirically recorded facts.

124 Michael McBacon  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:52:00pm

Stockpiling weapons = self-defense? That's Hizbullah-style crazy.

125 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:52:15pm

re: #121 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Anti-Marxism and cultural conservatism unite them. Only their position on Jews differentiates them, and then only partially (while Hitler saw all Jews as a political and "genetic" enemy of the Turd Reich, Breivik thinks it's only between 50-75%).

126 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:54:15pm

re: #121 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

re: #125 Sergey Romanov

Anti-Marxism and cultural conservatism unite them. Only their position on Jews differentiates them, and then only partially (while Hitler saw all Jews as a political and "genetic" enemy of the Turd Reich, Breivik thinks it's only between 50-75%).

A question for both of you:

Do you have a good understanding of Breivik's support for Israel? Is it just another convenient alliance for him against Islam?

127 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:54:16pm

re: #120 albusteve

on that level, the entire gig is cartoonish...unfortunately most of these boobs are operating within the law and there is no stopping them at that point...HS should drag Geller into a cell and give her a nice long lecture, but that's not gonna happen either...the forces of bad have the edge

My intent is not to shut them down. That of course it's outside of my ability and means. I have never lodged a formal complaint to any authority either. Nor written my congressman. My only goal is to make them look as foolish as possible which seems to be quite an easy task.

128 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:54:20pm

re: #122 Gus 802

I tend to think of Baron Moron Bodissey as a white supremacist. That is quite the irony you point to. It's amazing these little internet fantasy worlds they've created for themselves. Like they're playing "dress up" like when they were children. "I am the anti-Jihad internet warrior and I will fight with my keyboard in hand to the last bloody end!!11ty" It is like they're "playing war".

Laptop troopers.

129 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:54:41pm

re: #125 Sergey Romanov

And by that I mean rabid and irrational anti-Marxism. I don't want to tie any normal critics of Marxism to this.

130 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:56:13pm

re: #126 Alexzander

re: #125 Sergey Romanov

A question for both of you:

Do you have a good understanding of Breivik's support for Israel? Is it just another convenient alliance for him against Islam?

2 things.

1. Bulwark against Islam, a state at the forefront of anti-Jihad.

2. What he probably sees as a proper "ethnostate". This is common for the far right.

131 jaunte  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:56:28pm

re: #117 Gus 802

Their real hero/boogeyman is Super Slippery Slope.

132 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:56:34pm

Bhoener is speaking again.....

133 albusteve  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:57:16pm

re: #127 Gus 802

My intent is not to shut them down. That of course it's outside of my ability and means. I have never lodged a formal complaint to any authority either. Nor written my congressman. My only goal is to make them look as foolish as possible which seems to be quite an easy task.

indeed, their case is hardly airtight...I just often wonder when free speech is gonna take the hit that's coming....civil confrontation on a large scale is only a few gunshots away in many places across Europe

134 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:57:50pm

re: #130 Sergey Romanov

Thanks that was super clear. Its awesome having some experts on Breivik here - by far the best analysis I've seen.

135 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:58:11pm

re: #130 Sergey Romanov

2 things.

1. Bulwark against Islam, a state at the forefront of anti-Jihad.

2. What he probably sees as a proper "ethnostate". This is common for the far right.

Exactly. Which is kind of funny, because it buys into two common left-wing myths, 1) that Israel is a Mideast satelite state of the Imperialist West (or: the US) and 2) that Israel is an apartheid state. The extreme rightwing looks at these leftwing myths and thinks of them as good.

136 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:58:57pm

re: #135 000G

The extreme rightwing looks at these leftwing myths and thinks of them as good.

LOL

137 Michael McBacon  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:59:06pm

re: #130 Sergey Romanov

2 things.

1. Bulwark against Islam, a state at the forefront of anti-Jihad.

2. What he probably sees as a proper "ethnostate". This is common for the far right.

AKA: WASP Kahanism.

138 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 12:59:39pm

re: #135 000G

That's what I always say. The far right sees Israel as the far left does, they just like what they "see".

139 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:00:34pm

re: #126 Alexzander

re: #125 Sergey Romanov

A question for both of you:

Do you have a good understanding of Breivik's support for Israel? Is it just another convenient alliance for him against Islam?

Yeah, I believe I do.

By the end of this crusade of his/fjordmans/etc., Israel is supposed to be a protectorate of Christian Europe. So the people crowing that he's a "Christian Zionist" are full of it. Every group of people is to have their "place" -- including Christian/Animist Africans (he's also a supporter of a Christian South Sudan) -- and basically stay there; that's more Third Position stuff. Christians, preferably from high-church traditions like Catholicism and Orthodoxy are supposed to rule. Israel's rightwingers he/they see as being on the front line against Muslim infidels, both physically and symbolically.

140 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:02:53pm

re: #139 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Also worth it to add: the manifesto contains a lot of disdain for Protestantism in general.

141 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:03:06pm

re: #139 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Thank you!

142 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:03:37pm

re: #138 Sergey Romanov

That's what I always say. The far right sees Israel as the far left does, they just like what they "see".

I think it's important to keep the origin in mind, though. AFAIK, historically it's not just been from the left in general but the Soviet Union in particular.

143 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:03:48pm

re: #140 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Also worth it to add: the manifesto contains a lot of disdain for Protestantism in general.

Hmm, is there a short explanation for that or should I just load up the document and try and figure it out?

144 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:04:04pm

re: #140 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

It contains zero knowledge of what Catholicism is actually like, though. His admiration for Catholicism has nothing to do with its reality.

145 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:04:31pm

Jeeeeeeeeeeeze these senior citizens on C-SPAN are blowing my mind...

146 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:05:14pm

Tempted to call into CSPAN myself right now...

147 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:05:44pm

re: #123 000G

...I realized that it seemed odd because for a lot of these values he has no factual basis at all. It's just what he feels like they should be. But he writes them down as if they are empirically recorded facts.

He has some serious entitlement issues, that's for sure. Met a lot of rightwing men like that.

148 Digital Display  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:05:49pm

re: #145 Alexzander

Jeeeze these senior citizens on C-SPAN are blowing my mind...

I thought all senior citizens watch Fox
/

149 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:06:40pm

re: #142 000G

I think it's important to keep the origin in mind, though. AFAIK, historically it's not just been from the left in general but the Soviet Union in particular.

Sure. I mention it for the third time here, but what the heck. There was a Soviet documentary that actually used fragments of Der Ewige Jude (some graphics). Under the cover of "anti-Zionism" it was actually so antisemitic that it never saw light of the day even in USSR.

It basically started with Stalin's campaigns.

150 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:07:13pm

re: #144 Obdicut

It contains zero knowledge of what Catholicism is actually like, though. His admiration for Catholicism has nothing to do with its reality.

That goes for a lot of his ideological analyses, though. And it's a feature of political discourse that irks me the most: Talking about caricatures of what you pretend to be actually talking about (like a lot of antisemitism's positions has nothing to do with actual Jews and a lot of anticommunism's positions has nothing to do with actual Communists). Is there a name for this?

151 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:07:23pm

re: #144 Obdicut

It contains zero knowledge of what Catholicism is actually like, though. His admiration for Catholicism has nothing to do with its reality.

Yeah, the same thing can be said for his view of Protestantism, and everything in the manifesto, really. One big fail.

152 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:07:51pm

re: #143 Alexzander

Hmm, is there a short explanation for that or should I just load up the document and try and figure it out?

Hold on, I'll get a reference.

153 albusteve  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:08:48pm

re: #148 HoosierHoops

I thought all senior citizens watch Fox
/

another myth...a lot of people, a lot of conservatives don't watch Fox, or TV news, or give a shit about Breivik or Geller or LGF etc....blogs are a closed universe

154 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:09:32pm

Straight up crazy person on CSPAN right now talking about being forced into being heavily medicated....

155 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:09:58pm

re: #151 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yeah, the same thing can be said for his view of Protestantism, and everything in the manifesto, really. One big fail.

He has a good grasp on the entire field of Fjordman Thought.

It's a small field.

It's a vacant lot.

156 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:10:06pm

re: #150 000G

Well, it's a straw man when you attack it, I have no idea what you call it when you support the caricature.

157 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:10:11pm

re: #154 Alexzander

Straight up crazy person on CSPAN right now talking about being forced into being heavily medicated...

CSPAN's getting some heavy troll and prank traffic coming its way. Heh.

158 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:10:30pm

re: #153 albusteve

another myth...a lot of people, a lot of conservatives don't watch Fox, or TV news, or give a shit about Breivik or Geller or LGF etc...blogs are a closed universe

I don't think I know any Republicans in real life that watch Fox anymore.

159 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:11:15pm

My god this is my first time listening to CSPAN and I'm in shock. Its worse than Alex Jones or Coast to Coast.

160 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:11:45pm

re: #156 Obdicut

Well, it's a straw man when you attack it, I have no idea what you call it when you support the caricature.

I would only call it a straw man if you are conscious of the fact that you are creating a straw man, though. Maybe just call it bullshit?:

161 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:12:45pm

re: #160 000G

I would only call it a straw man if you are conscious of the fact that you are creating a straw man, though. Maybe just call it bullshit?:

[Video]

I dont think you have to consciously be creating a strawman for it to count.

162 Spocomptonite  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:13:05pm

re: #29 jaunte

One of Geller's commenters reminds everyone who the true killers are:


Murder by tongue!

Tootsie Roll Pops face genocide by evil kids every single day.
//

163 albusteve  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:13:20pm

re: #158 Killgore Trout

I don't think I know any Republicans in real life that watch Fox anymore.

nobody I know ever did, except in vague passing like myself...but I associate with active, outdoor people where politics is an afterthought....if you hang out on the internet too much, your world gets reduced to cyber blab, 75% which makes no sense at all

164 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:14:57pm

re: #163 albusteve

nobody I know ever did, except in vague passing like myself...but I associate with active, outdoor people where politics is an afterthought...if you hang out on the internet too much, your world gets reduced to cyber blab, 75% which makes no sense at all

I'm stealing cyber blab!!

165 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:14:59pm

re: #117 Gus 802

A lot of these people are living in a fantasy world. Obviously Breivik was living in a fantasy world with his "Knights Templar". Then you have these buffoons calling themselves noble like names like "Fjordman" and "Baron Bodissey." Baron? What does this moron have to do with a baron? Even Pamela Geller "dresses" herself up in a Superman costume.

The terrible and yet amusing thing is that they seem immune to the knowledge that it's an exact mirror image of Mohammed Atta and pals. All the 9/11 hijackers left "farewell videos". Taken together, they're pretty much the same exact thing as Breivik's manifesto.

Then Christopher Hitchens publishes a book called "How Religion Poisons Everything", and then suddenly HE's the bad guy.

166 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:15:16pm

re: #152 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

If you have a copy, start on p. 1130 (can't say for sure whether it's him or something he's copied. I'll backtrack and figure it out if you like.)

3.80 Reforming the European Church – from a diversified and un-appealing “Labour Church” to a united, strong and appealing “Traditional Church”

6 decades of the Marxist doctrines of cultural relativism/pluralism and egalitarian thinking has severely infected especially the Protestant church in Europe. This has resulted in a situation where a majority of Protestants, me included, have lost all respect for the Protestant church.

An increasing number of European Protestants are converting to Catholicism. Only by turning to Rome may Protestants be able to see some of the shortcomings of our espoused faith.

Here is a list of reasons why Catholicism is a better alternative:

The Church cannot survive in a cultural Marxist society ...
The “Labour Party Protestant Church” is subjective and sentimentalist ... [whatever "Labour Party Protestant Church" is, perhaps he's talking about Norway's state church]
The Protestant Church is historically revisionist ...
Cultural Marxism contracept and abort ...
The Protestant church makes no demands ...
The Rock of Tradition ...

And about 5 more bullet points after that, each with its own screed under them.

167 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:15:39pm

Hot Air is announcing the winners of some Tea Party video contest....

Don't You See?

So awful even the wingnut readers hate it. lol

168 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:17:53pm

re: #165 negativ

The terrible and yet amusing thing is that they seem immune to the knowledge that it's an exact mirror image of Mohammed Atta and pals. All the 9/11 hijackers left "farewell videos". Taken together, they're pretty much the same exact thing as Breivik's manifesto.

Then Christopher Hitchens publishes a book called "How Religion Poisons Everything", and then suddenly HE's the bad guy.

Christopher Hitchens isn't a bad guy, just a douche.

169 albusteve  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:18:00pm

re: #164 rwdflynavy

I'm stealing cyber blab!!

just dress it up in purple

170 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:18:18pm

re: #167 Killgore Trout

Had this effect on me:

Image: gOYQJ.gif

171 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:18:48pm

re: #150 000G

That goes for a lot of his ideological analyses, though. And it's a feature of political discourse that irks me the most: Talking about caricatures of what you pretend to be actually talking about (like a lot of antisemitism's positions has nothing to do with actual Jews and a lot of anticommunism's positions has nothing to do with actual Communists). Is there a name for this?

Probably some form of straw man.

172 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:19:15pm

re: #149 Sergey Romanov

Sure. I mention it for the third time here, but what the heck. There was a Soviet documentary that actually used fragments of Der Ewige Jude (some graphics). Under the cover of "anti-Zionism" it was actually so antisemitic that it never saw light of the day even in USSR.

It basically started with Stalin's campaigns.

Those historically inclined and fond of curiosities, go here:

Scroll to 6:13.

Now go to

Scroll to 7:55.

173 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:19:40pm

re: #171 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Probably some form of straw man.

See #156 and #160 ;-)

174 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:20:34pm

re: #168 rwdflynavy

Christopher Hitchens isn't a bad guy, just a douche.

A fatwah upon you!

175 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:22:03pm

re: #174 negativ

A fatwah upon you!

No thanks, I just ate.
//

176 Digital Display  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:22:30pm

re: #153 albusteve

another myth...a lot of people, a lot of conservatives don't watch Fox, or TV news, or give a shit about Breivik or Geller or LGF etc...blogs are a closed universe


Don't mess with me Steve...LOL
Go ahead..You can amend your post.. We'll wait....
Are you watching Indy on ESPN? I love that track
/Hope you are well

177 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:23:10pm

re: #159 Alexzander

My god this is my first time listening to CSPAN and I'm in shock. Its worse than Alex Jones or Coast to Coast.

Who's on?

178 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:25:32pm

Another creative goldmine from those geniuses at PowerLine:

179 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:26:17pm

A little less than a year old...

From Poll, a Snapshot of Fox News Viewers
By MEGAN THEE-BRENAN

Voters who say they watch the Fox News Channel for most of their information about politics and current events are more enthusiastic about the election and more attentive to it, angrier with Washington and more likely to vote for Republican candidates this fall than viewers of any other news network, according to a New York Times/CBS News poll conducted this month.

Whereas 78 percent of likely voters who say they are Fox News viewers support Republican candidates, 58 percent of viewers of CNN and MSNBC and 45 percent of broadcast network viewers say they will vote Democratic in November’s House races. About 6 in 10 Fox News loyalists see their vote this fall as a vote against President Obama, while pluralities of all other networks’ viewers say their vote is not about the president.

Almost half of those who tune into Fox News say they are paying a lot of attention to this year’s campaign and 60 percent say they are more enthusiastic about voting this year than in previous Congressional elections. Viewers of all other news networks are far less enthusiastic and attentive to the midterms.

Half of Fox News viewers say they are angry with the way things are going in Washington and another 40 percent say they are dissatisfied. Voters who watch all other news networks are much less angry than those who watch Fox News, though majorities are dissatisfied...

180 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:26:17pm

re: #177 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Who's on?

It just just the quality of the people that were calling in earlier. Extremely depressing really.

181 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:26:33pm

re: #167 Killgore Trout

Hot Air is announcing the winners of some Tea Party video contest...

Don't You See?

[Video]So awful even the wingnut readers hate it. lol

It wasn't that long ago when a 13 year-old was briefly held aloft as the Socrates of modern conservatism. I was deluged with emails about it from several starry-eyed relatives who should have known better.

182 albusteve  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:26:35pm

re: #176 HoosierHoops

Don't mess with me Steve...LOL
Go ahead..You can amend your post.. We'll wait...
Are you watching Indy on ESPN? I love that track
/Hope you are well

I am, just heading out for another round of activity...

183 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:26:46pm

re: #180 Alexzander

It just just the quality of the people that were calling in earlier. Extremely depressing really.

I should say the quality of the political analysis/understanding of the people calling in. Not the people themselves.

184 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:27:34pm

re: #181 negativ

It wasn't that long ago when a 13 year-old was briefly held aloft as the Socrates of modern conservatism. I was deluged with emails about it from several starry-eyed relatives who should have known better.

Just waiting till he grows up a bit and goes liberal.

185 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:28:28pm

re: #178 Alexzander

Another creative goldmine from those geniuses at PowerLine:

[Video]

It's a better song than the one with the kid. I notice that it's completely Paulian, shitting on Bush for the bailouts and complaining about American Military bases in Europe.

186 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:28:42pm

re: #184 Sergey Romanov

Just waiting till he grows up a bit and goes liberal.

I'm eargerly awaiting the 10 year followup to Jesus Camp. I assume something similar will be at play there.

187 sagehen  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:30:06pm

re: #126 Alexzander

re: #125 Sergey Romanov

A question for both of you:

Do you have a good understanding of Breivik's support for Israel? Is it just another convenient alliance for him against Islam?

I'm going to guess it's like Sarah Palin's support for Israel -- if we have a place we can send all the Jews, we can get rid of them here. And once they're all together, according to prophecy, Jesus will come and burn them all.

188 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:30:24pm

re: #172 Sergey Romanov

Those historically inclined and fond of curiosities, go here:

[Video]Scroll to 7:55.

To clarify, the first is the 1970s Soviet "anti-Zionist" documentary "Taynoye i yavnoye" ("Covert and overt") that has never seen the light of the day. By comparing the fragment I pointed out with the fragment in the Nazi propaganda film "The Eternal Jew" ("Der Ewige Jude") you can see why the first documentary was suppressed. And this is not the only instance of plagiarism.
Ironically during the scene in question the voiceover reads from Marx's "On the Jewish question".

189 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:31:47pm

re: #181 negativ

It wasn't that long ago when a 13 year-old was briefly held aloft as the Socrates of modern conservatism. I was deluged with emails about it from several starry-eyed relatives who should have known better.

I remember that story. Reminded me of super-repressed wonderboy Ben Shapiro a decade ago.

190 Donna Ballard  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:32:12pm

Narcissism, racism, atheism and any ism out there that advocates anti-anything that pertains to color, religion, or creed turns my stomach. What happened to fairness, minding my own business and living peacefully with our fellow man? Since when has hurting the innocent or killing your fellow man just because he doesn't share your beliefs become the norm? Isn't this supposed to be the 20th century? Are we still just cave men and women at heart? When is humanity finally gonna grow up? Makes me want to become a hermit sometimes. I just don't get it. *sigh* Guess I never will...

191 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:33:03pm

re: #181 negativ

It wasn't that long ago when a 13 year-old was briefly held aloft as the Socrates of modern conservatism. I was deluged with emails about it from several starry-eyed relatives who should have known better.

When you're up against "Joe the Plumber" just about everybody will sound like Socrates. Even Sarah Palin.

192 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:33:51pm

re: #190 Dragon_Lady

Narcissism, racism, atheism and any ism out there that advocates anti-anything that pertains to color, religion, or creed turns my stomach. What happened to fairness, minding my own business and living peacefully with our fellow man? Since when has hurting the innocent or killing your fellow man just because he doesn't share your beliefs become the norm? Isn't this supposed to be the 20th century? Are we still just cave men and women at heart? When is humanity finally gonna grow up? Makes me want to become a hermit sometimes. I just don't get it. *sigh* Guess I never will...

You're actually going to bundle in atheism with racism? Huh?

193 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:35:09pm

re: #190 Dragon_Lady

Narcissism, racism, atheism and any ism out there that advocates anti-anything that pertains to color, religion, or creed turns my stomach. What happened to fairness, minding my own business and living peacefully with our fellow man? Since when has hurting the innocent or killing your fellow man just because he doesn't share your beliefs become the norm? Isn't this supposed to be the 20th century? Are we still just cave men and women at heart? When is humanity finally gonna grow up? Makes me want to become a hermit sometimes. I just don't get it. *sigh* Guess I never will...

WTF?

194 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:36:18pm

re: #190 Dragon_Lady

Isn't this supposed to be the 20th century?

Ummm... no?

195 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:37:16pm

My Darwinism ran over your creationism.

//

196 Spocomptonite  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:39:42pm

re: #184 Sergey Romanov

Just waiting till he grows up a bit and goes liberal.

He's homeschooled by his born-again parents in the affluent insulated suburbs of Atlanta. I don't have high hopes.

197 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:41:32pm

re: #190 Dragon_Lady

Isn't this supposed to be the 20th century?

21st!

198 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:41:56pm

re: #193 Sergey Romanov

WTF?

Brilliant trolling.
Two thumbs up.
Would be outraged again.

199 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:42:16pm

Afternoon, all.

We got rain last night! Four hundredths of an inch! Oh, joy, be still my heart!

It sucks being a Texan this summer.

200 Spocomptonite  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:42:40pm

re: #190 Dragon_Lady

Narcissism, racism, atheism and any ism out there that advocates anti-anything that pertains to color, religion, or creed turns my stomach. What happened to fairness, minding my own business and living peacefully with our fellow man? Since when has hurting the innocent or killing your fellow man just because he doesn't share your beliefs become the norm? Isn't this supposed to be the 20th century? Are we still just cave men and women at heart? When is humanity finally gonna grow up? Makes me want to become a hermit sometimes. I just don't get it. *sigh* Guess I never will...

downding for painting atheism as 'anti-religion'. And also for lumping it in with racism.
Atheists are tolerant of religion, up until the point where other religions start asserting their "truth" as everyone's absolute truth. That's far different than being 'anti-religion'.

201 sagehen  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:44:18pm

re: #199 austin_blue

Afternoon, all.

We got rain last night! Four hundredths of an inch! Oh, joy, be still my heart!

It sucks being a Texan this summer.

You're imagining the drought. There's no such thing as climate change.

//

202 Digital Display  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:44:19pm

re: #199 austin_blue

Afternoon, all.

We got rain last night! Four hundredths of an inch! Oh, joy, be still my heart!

It sucks being a Texan this summer.

Same as Oklahoma.. I'm not going out today..Next week will be the hottest week of the year and bone dry..

203 Spocomptonite  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:44:22pm

re: #199 austin_blue

Afternoon, all.

We got rain last night! Four hundredths of an inch! Oh, joy, be still my heart!

It sucks being a Texan East of the Rockies this summer.

Or so I've been told by everyone in Washington that's been outside of Washington this month.

204 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:44:30pm

I request that HoosierHoops defend the up-dinging of a post that pulls together atheism and racism.

205 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:45:10pm

re: #200 Spocomptonite

I don't see religion as a positive phenomenon. Doesn't mean I'm anti-religious.people.

206 ThomasLite  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:45:47pm

re: #200 Spocomptonite

downding for painting atheism as 'anti-religion'. And also for lumping it in with racism.
Atheists are tolerant of religion, up until the point where other religions start asserting their "truth" as everyone's absolute truth. That's far different than being 'anti-religion'.

to be entirely fair, there's a few folks referring to themselves as just atheists, who do go a bit further than that.
not to blame this on all atheists, of course. it's just that I can understand how some of the more... religious atheists, as I like to refer to those folks, can be quite off-putting to even a moderately religious person.

not that that means I don't at least raise an eyebrow at that post you take offense at, of course.

207 Spocomptonite  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:49:06pm

re: #206 ThomasLite

to be entirely fair, there's a few folks referring to themselves as just atheists, who do go a bit further than that.
not to blame this on all atheists, of course. it's just that I can understand how some of the more... religious atheists, as I like to refer to those folks, can be quite off-putting to even a moderately religious person.

not that that means I don't at least raise an eyebrow at that post you take offense at, of course.

I agree. I should have said, "Most atheists". It would be silly for me or anybody to assume that any group of people would have perfect tolerance, or even greater tolerance than other groups of people.

208 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:49:11pm

re: #206 ThomasLite

to be entirely fair, there's a few folks referring to themselves as just atheists, who do go a bit further than that.
not to blame this on all atheists, of course. it's just that I can understand how some of the more... religious atheists, as I like to refer to those folks, can be quite off-putting to even a moderately religious person.

not that that means I don't at least raise an eyebrow at that post you take offense at, of course.

Who cares. I'm tired of people belly aching about "religious atheists." That's bullshit for one. Atheism is not a religion and anyone that believes it as such is dead wrong. It's about time people like Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett and others started speaking up. Religions have had their hands in things for far too long and the tide is finally turning. And that tide is turning due in large part because of these well known atheists. We will not shut up and we will not be cowered into submission because of people's sensitive feelings about their superstitious beliefs.

209 Digital Display  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:50:47pm

re: #204 Alexzander

I request that HoosierHoops defend the up-dinging of a post that pulls together atheism and racism.

Sure..I like her...She attempted to post about 'ism' being a polarizing issue in Her Opinion...I think atheism was a really weak example of a isms
But racism was accurate.. 20th century was off by only 100 years.. So I figure a nice Merlot was involved...She is really cool though...

210 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:50:52pm

re: #208 Gus 802

Who cares. I'm tired of people belly aching about "religious atheists." That's bullshit for one. Atheism is not a religion and anyone that believes it as such is dead wrong. It's about time people like Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett and others started speaking up. Religions have had their hands in things for far too long and the tide is finally turning. And that tide is turning due in large part because of these well known atheists. We will not shut up and we will not be cowered into submission because of people's sensitive feelings about their superstitious beliefs.

Amen. Preach it, brother!

oh wait

///sorry, couldn't resist

211 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:52:16pm

How do you think we got here in the first place? You think we got into this fight with Islamists because of the weather? Because Christian, Jews and Muslims were getting along just peachy over thousands of years? The answer is a resounding NO! We got here because of religion.

212 AK-47%  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:52:34pm

re: #200 Spocomptonite

downding for painting atheism as 'anti-religion'. And also for lumping it in with racism.
Atheists are tolerant of religion, up until the point where other religions start asserting their "truth" as everyone's absolute truth. That's far different than being 'anti-religion'.

There are militant athiests out there who can be just as intolerant as any fundamentalist. I think that is what DL was on about.

213 Digital Display  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:53:34pm

re: #212 ralphieboy

There are militant athiests out there who can be just as intolerant as any fundamentalist. I think that is what DL was on about.

I'm a member of the militant wing of the Salvation Army

214 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:54:09pm

re: #212 ralphieboy

There are militant athiests out there who can be just as intolerant as any fundamentalist. I think that is what DL was on about.

Well, she wrote just "atheism". It's not like she can't wield the English language. And to include even militant atheists along with racists? Shameful.

215 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:55:20pm

re: #212 ralphieboy

There are militant athiests out there who can be just as intolerant as any fundamentalist. I think that is what DL was on about.

For every "militant atheist" there are 1,000,000 "militant theists".

216 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:56:28pm

re: #184 Sergey Romanov

Just waiting till he grows up a bit and goes liberal.

I'm just wating until it dawns on him that he didn't have a normal childhood.

217 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:57:32pm

re: #208 Gus 802

Who cares. I'm tired of people belly aching about "religious atheists." That's bullshit for one. Atheism is not a religion and anyone that believes it as such is dead wrong. It's about time people like Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett and others started speaking up. Religions have had their hands in things for far too long and the tide is finally turning. And that tide is turning due in large part because of these well known atheists. We will not shut up and we will not be cowered into submission because of people's sensitive feelings about their superstitious beliefs.

How about proselytizing?

218 ThomasLite  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:58:16pm

re: #208 Gus 802

Who cares. I'm tired of people belly aching about "religious atheists." That's bullshit for one. Atheism is not a religion and anyone that believes it as such is dead wrong. It's about time people like Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett and others started speaking up. Religions have had their hands in things for far too long and the tide is finally turning. And that tide is turning due in large part because of these well known atheists. We will not shut up and we will not be cowered into submission because of people's sensitive feelings about their superstitious beliefs.

well, Hitchens and Dawkins, in their supreme arrogance, aren't exactly helping. Dennett I don't know off of the top of my head. I'm not even getting into 'right' or 'wrong' but there's a sizeable contingent that seems to basically seek to offend. hell, I'm sometimes as annoyed at those folks as at some of those religious nutcases they rail against.
broad brush, and such. you're perfectly free to use it, but don't be surprised if it gets you a little resentment.

219 Spocomptonite  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:58:56pm

re: #212 ralphieboy

There are militant athiests out there who can be just as intolerant as any fundamentalist. I think that is what DL was on about.

Then why Atheism and not any of the many sects of Christianity and Islam that have far more of an impact on the world?

Also, "Militant?" Ha! Care to show me these atheist militias?

220 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:59:24pm

Interesting. LGF is having a Newt Gingrich moment.

221 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 1:59:56pm

re: #218 ThomasLite

> but don't be surprised if it gets you a little resentment.

Isn't it exactly the other way around? How many "proselytizing atheists" are there and how many proselytizing theists? I think we could forgive some "militancy" given the theistic attitudes.

222 jaunte  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:00:29pm

re: #215 Gus 802

For every "militant atheist" there are 1,000,000 "militant theists".


You see the oppression inherent in the system!

223 Alexzander  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:01:41pm

re: #222 jaunte

You see the oppression inherent in the system!


Help Help! I'm being oppressed!

224 Spocomptonite  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:02:10pm

re: #218 ThomasLite

well, Hitchens and Dawkins, in their supreme arrogance, aren't exactly helping. Dennett I don't know off of the top of my head. I'm not even getting into 'right' or 'wrong' but there's a sizeable contingent that seems to basically seek to offend. hell, I'm sometimes as annoyed at those folks as at some of those religious nutcases they rail against.
broad brush, and such. you're perfectly free to use it, but don't be surprised if it gets you a little resentment.

"Supreme arrogance"? uh, well I can see where bringing facts and the body of evidence science provides us to a debate where the other side brings an ignorant literal interpretation of 2000+ year old writings could appear to be arrogance.

225 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:03:01pm

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Given the increasing religiosity of American culture, it's perhaps not too surprising that a new study out this month finds that Americans are not fond of atheists and trust them less than they do other groups. The depth of this distrust is a bit astonishing nonetheless.

More than 2,000 randomly selected people were interviewed by researchers from the University of Minnesota.

Asked whether they would disapprove of a child's wish to marry an atheist, 47.6 percent of those interviewed said yes. Asked the same question about Muslims and African-Americans, the yes responses fell to 33.5 percent and 27.2 percent, respectively. The yes responses for Asian-Americans, Hispanics, Jews and conservative Christians were 18.5 percent, 18.5 percent, 11.8 percent and 6.9 percent, respectively.

When asked which groups did not share their vision of American society, 39.5 percent of those interviewed mentioned atheists. Asked the same question about Muslims and homosexuals, the figures dropped to a slightly less depressing 26.3 percent and 22.6 percent, respectively. For Hispanics, Jews, Asian-Americans and African-Americans, they fell further to 7.6 percent, 7.4 percent, 7.0 percent and 4.6 percent, respectively.

The study contains other results, but these are sufficient to underline its gist: Atheists are seen by many Americans (especially conservative Christians) as alien and are, in the words of sociologist Penny Edgell, the study's lead researcher, "a glaring exception to the rule of increasing tolerance over the last 30 years."

STFU about "militant atheism". OK?

226 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:03:14pm

re: #218 ThomasLite

well, Hitchens and Dawkins, in their supreme arrogance, aren't exactly helping. Dennett I don't know off of the top of my head. I'm not even getting into 'right' or 'wrong' but there's a sizeable contingent that seems to basically seek to offend. hell, I'm sometimes as annoyed at those folks as at some of those religious nutcases they rail against.
broad brush, and such. you're perfectly free to use it, but don't be surprised if it gets you a little resentment.

What's offensive is seeing a woman's right to choose being regulated by Christian Americans. What's offensive is seeing Salmaan Taseer being assassinated for defending secularism in Pakistan. What's offensive is seeing our science classes being infiltrated by the stupidity of creationism. What's offensive is the Madrasas in Pakistan teaching children to hate the West and all non-believers to the point of justifying their swift deaths and creating the Taliban. What's offensive is the Catholic church, an inherently male dominated religion, tell women how to run their lives in almost every aspect and especially in poor countries. That's what I find offensive.

227 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:04:25pm

re: #208 Gus 802

Who cares. I'm tired of people belly aching about "religious atheists." That's bullshit for one. Atheism is not a religion and anyone that believes it as such is dead wrong. It's about time people like Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett and others started speaking up. Religions have had their hands in things for far too long and the tide is finally turning. And that tide is turning due in large part because of these well known atheists. We will not shut up and we will not be cowered into submission because of people's sensitive feelings about their superstitious beliefs.

IMHO, Dawkins jumped the shark over the elevator.

(I don't entirely agree with this author's conclusion, but it's close.)

228 jaunte  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:04:30pm

God has apparently told Rick Perry we need another Amendment to perfect our society..

Perry backs a constitutional limit on marriage

229 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:04:46pm

re: #221 Sergey Romanov

> but don't be surprised if it gets you a little resentment.

Isn't it exactly the other way around? How many "proselytizing atheists" are there and how many proselytizing theists? I think we could forgive some "militancy" given the theistic attitudes.

I don't necessarily disagree, but as an agnostic I'm just tired of know it alls talking in absolutes about a subject that is inherently outside human comprehension.

230 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:05:56pm

[Link: whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com...]

“Not believing in God” is the worst trait of all, much worse than having had an extramarital affair. The Pew report finds that this figure is “little changed from four years ago.” America remains a nation deeply disapproving of atheists.

Most of American voters are anti-atheist bigots, yet people worry about 2-3 loudmouthed "arrogant" atheists! Mind boggles.

231 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:06:46pm

re: #227 wrenchwench

IMHO, Dawkins jumped the shark over the elevator.

(I don't entirely agree with this author's conclusion, but it's close.)

Yes. Dawkins always comes up. And with anti-atheist bigots he's always a convenient representative of atheism and the proverbial "militant" atheist. How militant is he as an author and speaker? What influence does he have in American or world politics though? The answer is a resounding zero.

232 Spocomptonite  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:07:27pm

re: #228 jaunte

God has apparently told Rick Perry we need another Amendment to perfect our society..

Perry backs a constitutional limit on marriage

We should start a campaign to pressure Perry to adopt the deuteronomy and leviticus stuff in the Bible. I mean, while he's using the bible as his blueprint for how to govern. Get Red Lobster out of Texas! Stone non-virgin brides! Forced marriage of widows!

233 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:07:35pm

re: #229 goddamnedfrank

I don't necessarily disagree, but as an agnostic I'm just tired of know it alls talking in absolutes about a subject that is inherently outside human comprehension.

You mean theistic preachers? Because people like Dawkins don't talk in absolute terms about God.

234 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:09:30pm

re: #231 Gus 802

Yes. Dawkins always comes up. And with anti-atheist bigots he's always a convenient representative of atheism and the proverbial "militant" atheist. How militant is he as an author and speaker? What influence does he have in American or world politics though? The answer is a resounding zero.

I support his atheism and his speaking about it in any manner he chooses. But now I think he's a sexist pig and I won't listen to him.

235 jaunte  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:10:50pm

re: #232 Spocomptonite

Perry, 61, said social issues should be decided state by state and even remarked that New York's passage of gay marriage law was that state's business. Still, he said he would support a constitutional amendment that takes away the power of the states to decide who can get married.

"Yes, sir, I would. I am for the federal marriage amendment," he said. "And that's about as sharp a point as I could put on it."


He supports it, but is too crafty to get caught quoting it in full:

"Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution, nor the constitution of any State, shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the union of a man and a woman."
236 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:11:04pm

re: #234 wrenchwench

I support his atheism and his speaking about it in any manner he chooses. But now I think he's a sexist pig and I won't listen to him.

Oh. That I haven't heard about. I don't exactly follow these guys every move or word.

237 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:13:23pm

re: #228 jaunte

God has apparently told Rick Perry we need another Amendment to perfect our society..

Perry backs a constitutional limit on marriage

That's our Governor!

His attitude is "Small government is the best government except when I need to throw some red meat to tie up my base."

What a douche.

238 ThomasLite  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:13:34pm

re: #221 Sergey Romanov

> but don't be surprised if it gets you a little resentment.

Isn't it exactly the other way around? How many "proselytizing atheists" are there and how many proselytizing theists? I think we could forgive some "militancy" given the theistic attitudes.

sure. and by all means, be as militant towards those as you like; I'll do my damn best to find enough common ground to support you in that.
would be good if it were reserved for those kind of folks though, not everyone of religious nature.

and you know damn well I'm not targeting "all" convinced atheists, or even all those vocal about that.

now maybe it's different here in NL; I'll say it's completely possible the militant theist camp in the US is a lot bigger. maybe I'm responding to a totally different phenomenon than the one you support.

239 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:13:36pm

re: #233 Sergey Romanov

You mean theistic preachers? Because people like Dawkins don't talk in absolute terms about God.

He talks in absolute terms about the impossibility of a creator.

A universe with a God would look quite different from a universe without one. A physics, a biology where there is a God is bound to look different. So the most basic claims of religion are scientific. Religion is a scientific theory.
-Richard Dawkins

To me this is some epic level cocky bullshit, how the hell does he know something so inherently unprovable? Maybe God exists, but like the honey badger He just doesn't give a shit.

240 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:14:11pm

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

1 Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
2 De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3 Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4 Completely impartial agnostic. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5 Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6 De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7 Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."

This is the scale Dawkins formulated. He considers himself to be 6.9, i.e. leaves a minuscule chance for a god, thus doesn't make an "absolute" statement.

241 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:14:40pm

re: #236 Gus 802

Oh. That I haven't heard about. I don't exactly follow these guys every move or word.

Heretic./

242 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:16:10pm

re: #236 Gus 802

Oh. That I haven't heard about. I don't exactly follow these guys every move or word.

This nice atheist chick will 'splain it all to you. You'll like her....

243 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:16:30pm

re: #240 Sergey Romanov

I'd never actually seen that. Yeah, I'm a 6.9 too. I thought i was more hardcore than Dawkins. I guess not.

244 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:16:36pm

But please. Bring up a "militant" atheist that compares with the militant religious leaders and some of their flock that we can find around this world. And please don't bring up Stalin because that wasn't about atheism. Someone in a modern context or in current events. Say, someone equal to Hassan Nasrallah or Ayatollah Shahroudi. Then show me an atheist regime similar to the Mullahs running Iran.

245 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:16:42pm

re: #240 Sergey Romanov

4 Completely impartial agnostic. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."

This is a very poor definition of agnosticism. Agnosticism says nothing about the probability of a creator, it says that it is beyond the capability of the individual agnostic's mind to know the answer.

246 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:18:43pm

re: #239 goddamnedfrank

He talks in absolute terms about the impossibility of a creator.

To me this is some epic level cocky bullshit, how the hell does he know something so inherently unprovable? Maybe God exists, but like the honey badger He just doesn't give a shit.

And we don't get cocky bullshit from the believers? I think it takes a lot of cock sureness to believe in something you can't prove exists. Maybe God created the Earth in 7 days too and that the fossils were really put here by Satan in order to test our faith? Why not then extend that unsureness and start teaching creationism in science class?

247 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:18:47pm

re: #221 Sergey Romanov

> but don't be surprised if it gets you a little resentment.

Isn't it exactly the other way around? How many "proselytizing atheists" are there and how many proselytizing theists? I think we could forgive some "militancy" given the theistic attitudes.

tu quoque

248 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:22:51pm

re: #239 goddamnedfrank

While I disagree with that passage, at the end of this lecture he says:

Science offers us an explanation of how complexity (the difficult) arose out of simplicity (the easy). The hypothesis of God offers no worthwhile explanation for anything, for it simply postulates what we are trying to explain. It postulates the difficult to explain, and leaves it at that. We cannot prove that there is no God, but we can safely conclude the He is very, very improbable indeed.
249 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:24:01pm

re: #247 000G

tu quoque

No. Consider the numbers and influence.

250 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:25:43pm

I would say that all the dumb bigots who wouldn't vote for a person just because he dares to lack belief in an unprovable deity are much more a cause of concern than a few abrasive atheists. Oh, what do I know.

251 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:27:48pm

re: #246 Gus 802

And we don't get cocky bullshit from the believers? I think it takes a lot of cock sureness to believe in something you can't prove exists.

It's not a contest.

Maybe God created the Earth in 7 days too and that the fossils were really put here by Satan in order to test our faith? Why not then extend that unsureness and start teaching creationism in science class?

God, creation and the afterlife are a very large idea space, barely explored and have nothing to do with science, and shouldn't. Limiting the exploration of that idea space as worthwhile literature doesn't make a person a better or worse scientist.

252 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:27:54pm

re: #249 Sergey Romanov

No. Consider the numbers and influence.

Indeed. And the tu quoque they have is Richard Dawkins. I can't help but laugh at the idea that the alleged "militancy" of Dawkins is even close to the militancy of many global religious leaders from nearly ALL religions. That's it? Dawkins? Seriously? There's enough Christian militancy in the current Republican presidential line-up then on the whole of the American atheist movement. And their power is real and has found influence on our lives.

253 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:31:53pm

re: #252 Gus 802

And besides, I wouldn't want anyone like Madalyn Murray O'Hair as a friend. But it took her, an atheistic fundie if you will, to kick the unconstitutional Bible-reading out of the US schools. Not likable as a person? Sure. But why not be thankful for expanded religious freedom (for a mandatory Bible-reading _was_ an encroachment on such)?

254 justaminute  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:34:51pm

Aren't they the ones like Gellar that say Muslims won't report the jihadists or potential terrorists that they say that are among the Muslim community. Unbelievable and hypocritical.

255 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:36:39pm

re: #227 wrenchwench

IMHO, Dawkins jumped the shark over the elevator.

(I don't entirely agree with this author's conclusion, but it's close.)

I've disagreed with Dawkins' approach on certain other issues, but in this case, he was exactly right. If anything, he wasn't scathing enough. That whole nontroversy sent my respect for Rebecca Watson to zero (saying that as a long-time fan of The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe), and made PZ Myers and Phil Plait both look like a couple of idiots on that issue.

My perception may be colored in part by having been around the JREF forum long enough to remember Rebecca Watson being a complete drama queen there (and eventually being banned because of it).

To add insult to injury, it forced me to almost entirely agree with "The Amazing Atheist", whom I normally consider just about as intolerable as it is possible to be.

256 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:38:02pm

re: #255 negativ

I've disagreed with Dawkins' approach on certain other issues, but in this case, he was exactly right. If anything, he wasn't scathing enough. That whole nontroversy sent my respect for Rebecca Watson to zero (saying that as a long-time fan of The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe), and made PZ Myers and Phil Plait both look like a couple of idiots on that issue.

My perception may be colored in part by having been around the JREF forum long enough to remember Rebecca Watson being a complete drama queen there (and eventually being banned because of it).

To add insult to injury, it forced me to almost entirely agree with "The Amazing Atheist", whom I normally consider just about as intolerable as it is possible to be.

[Video]

Negativ, can you tell in a couple of sentences your take on this case?

257 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:40:14pm

re: #253 Sergey Romanov

And besides, I wouldn't want anyone like Madalyn Murray O'Hair as a friend. But it took her, an atheistic fundie if you will, to kick the unconstitutional Bible-reading out of the US schools. Not likable as a person? Sure. But why not be thankful for expanded religious freedom (for a mandatory Bible-reading _was_ an encroachment on such)?

The evil Madalyn Murray O'Hair! Yes. She was sometimes a rather acerbic loon. However, she never came close to attaining the level of lunacy attained by Martin Luther. That is, for those that consider atheism "a religion". ;)

258 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:41:35pm

re: #256 Sergey Romanov

Negativ, can you tell in a couple of sentences your take on this case?

1) I thought I just did; and

2) brevity being the soul of wit, I am completely incapable of conveying my perspective on anything in just a couple of sentences.

259 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:42:05pm

re: #232 Spocomptonite

We should start a campaign to pressure Perry to adopt the deuteronomy and leviticus stuff in the Bible. I mean, while he's using the bible as his blueprint for how to govern. Get Red Lobster out of Texas! Stone non-virgin brides! Forced marriage of widows!

I'm for it unless I'm against it.

260 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:43:55pm

re: #255 negativ

I've disagreed with Dawkins' approach on certain other issues, but in this case, he was exactly right. If anything, he wasn't scathing enough. That whole nontroversy sent my respect for Rebecca Watson to zero (saying that as a long-time fan of The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe), and made PZ Myers and Phil Plait both look like a couple of idiots on that issue.

My perception may be colored in part by having been around the JREF forum long enough to remember Rebecca Watson being a complete drama queen there (and eventually being banned because of it).

To add insult to injury, it forced me to almost entirely agree with "The Amazing Atheist", whom I normally consider just about as intolerable as it is possible to be.

[Video]

I did not know of Rebecca Watson before this incident, but I have enjoyed what I have seen of her in a couple videos.

I watched two minutes of your video, and I think we will have to agree to disagree. He doesn't get it, and I guess you don't either. Religious programming does not cause reactions like Rebecca's to the elevator incident; the survival instinct does. The fact that women are vulnerable to rape does.

261 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:45:06pm

re: #258 negativ

OK, I just thought there were some other circumstances that change the perception in the case as described in ww's link. Rather, you accept Dawkins' side as is.

262 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:48:53pm

re: #249 Sergey Romanov

No. Consider the numbers and influence.

Just because a lot of other people have bad breath and their breaths stinks even more is no argument for you not using toothbrushes and/or mouthwash.

263 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:50:20pm

OK. If I were to pick two distasteful atheists I would pick Pat Condell and the ever elusive Thunderfoot. But no one has ever heard of Thunderfoot outside of the atheist Youtube community. And Pat Condell is still an underemployed comedian living in the UK. Most people never even heard of Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens.

264 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:50:54pm

re: #262 000G

Just because a lot of other people have bad breath and their breaths stinks even more is no argument for you not using toothbrushes and/or mouthwash.

Yes but bad breath can also be the symptom of either something like simple bacteria of mouth cancer.

265 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:51:21pm

re: #262 000G

Just because a lot of other people have bad breath and their breaths stinks even more is no argument for you not using toothbrushes and/or mouthwash.

Nobody said it was such an argument. I think it's quite obvious what I was talking about. Omitting all the people with bad breath and focusing on a small group (and putting them in the same line with cannibals) - that's what's wrong.

266 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:53:08pm

re: #265 Sergey Romanov

Nobody said it was such an argument. I think it's quite obvious what I was talking about. Omitting all the people with bad breath and focusing on a small group (and putting them in the same line with cannibals) - that's what's wrong.

Another day of waring atheist factions and warlords in North Africa.

//

267 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:53:15pm

re: #264 Gus 802

Yes but bad breath can also be the symptom of either something like simple bacteria of mouth cancer.

My argument (to quoque) was more along the lines that other people's obnoxiousness, even when more widespread and severe, was no excuse for sanctioning or engaging in obnoxiousness yourself. Dunno where yours is going.

268 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:54:04pm

re: #262 000G

Just because a lot of other people have bad breath and their breaths stinks even more is no argument for you not using toothbrushes and/or mouthwash.

OK, I checked and I did say something like that. I've already lost track of the arguments. Sorry.

269 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:54:51pm

re: #265 Sergey Romanov

Nobody said it was such an argument. I think it's quite obvious what I was talking about. Omitting all the people with bad breath and focusing on a small group (and putting them in the same line with cannibals) - that's what's wrong.

Who here is omitting? And I am just focusing on atheists because that's what seems to be the current topic of conversation. Would be happy to talk about obnoxious Mormons or Jehova's Wittnesses, too.

270 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:55:02pm

re: #260 wrenchwench

Religious programming does not cause reactions like Rebecca's to the elevator incident; the survival instinct does. The fact that women are vulnerable to rape does.

Just the other day, I was on an elevator at approximately 3AM when not just one, not just two, but THREE (count 'em, three) black males in their early 20s got into my elevator. At one point, one of them asked me if I had change for a $5.

I was obviously almost robbed and killed, and anyone who scoffs at my trauma (and the profound attention-sustaining sociology it implies) is nearly as terrible as Richard Dawkins.

271 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:55:36pm

re: #269 000G

You're not. And see 268. Apologies.

272 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:55:43pm

re: #268 Sergey Romanov

OK, I checked and I did say something like that. I've already lost track of the arguments. Sorry.

Heh, no offense taken. It happens in the heat. At least I know it does a lot to me on LGF. Place can get challenging quickly. :-)

273 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:56:31pm

re: #271 Sergey Romanov

You're not. And see 268. Apologies.

No worries. Btw, apologies for the Buchanan thing in the other thread. That was uncalled for.

274 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:57:14pm

By the way:

re: #260 wrenchwench

I did not know of Rebecca Watson before this incident, but I have enjoyed what I have seen of her in a couple videos.

I watched two minutes of your video, and I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I read the first two sentences of your [hypothetical] 5-paragraph post, and I think I'm going to have to reject your argument out-of-hand.

275 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:57:37pm

re: #267 000G

My argument (to quoque) was more along the lines that other people's obnoxiousness, even when more widespread and severe, was no excuse for sanctioning or engaging in obnoxiousness yourself. Dunno where yours is going.

The argument as you may recall stems from the logical fallacy lumping in racism with atheism and not who has he most obnoxious characters in their ranks. If that's the case then religions win hands down as having the most obnoxious characters in these modern times. I have yet to see atheists bombing abortion clinics or shooting abortion doctors. Neither do I see any atheist suicide bombers to date.

276 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:57:45pm

re: #273 000G

No worries. Btw, apologies for the Buchanan thing in the other thread. That was uncalled for.

No prob, already forgot. :)

277 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:04:03pm

re: #275 Gus 802

The argument as you may recall stems from the logical fallacy lumping in racism with atheism and not who has he most obnoxious characters in their ranks. If that's the case then religions win hands down as having the most obnoxious characters in these modern times. I have yet to see atheists bombing abortion clinics or shooting abortion doctors. Neither do I see any atheist suicide bombers to date.

I know that the topic was arrived at from the whole racism/atheism stupidity, I don't know if any particular argument stemmed from there. Was it the social stigmatization of atheists, as racists are socially stigmatized as well? Well, religious people are not socially stigmatized, sorry – that's just a fact. Maybe they should be, but lot of people are satisified with just stigmatizing people of religons other than their own.

I mean, what is the real argument here? That societies would be better with people getting along more if there was less religion or no religion at all? If the premises described above are accurate, then you could also make the case that societies would be better if all people had the same religion. What's the atheist social argument?

I think a big problem of atheism is that it is defensive in nature and negative in a lot of its arguments. Religions offer solutions, and even if they are bullshit solutions, people in general will always drift towards what is supposed to be a solution more than being smug and contend about knowing that there is none.

278 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:04:07pm

re: #274 negativ

By the way:

I read the first two sentences of your [hypothetical] 5-paragraph post, and I think I'm going to have to reject your argument out-of-hand.

I have not called myself a feminist for a long time, but I just watched thirty more seconds of that loud mouth, and I may have to reconsider.

279 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:04:28pm

re: #270 negativ

Bad analogy.

280 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:04:33pm

re: #255 negativ

To add insult to injury, it forced me to almost entirely agree with "The Amazing Atheist", whom I normally consider just about as intolerable as it is possible to be.

[Video]

Shouts too much.

281 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:05:12pm

re: #277 000G

...I think a big problem of atheism is that it is defensive in nature and negative in a lot of its arguments. Religions offer solutions, and even if they are bullshit solutions, people in general will always drift towards what is supposed to be a solution more than being smug and contend about knowing that there is none.

Are you an atheist?

282 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:08:27pm

re: #281 Gus 802

Are you an atheist?

Self-proclaimed? No. Ignostic would probably be most accurate if I had to pick a label. Why?

283 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:11:47pm

re: #280 Sergey Romanov

Shouts too much.

At 5:25 he calls her a "bitch".

284 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:15:52pm

re: #282 000G

Self-proclaimed? No. Ignostic would probably be most accurate if I had to pick a label. Why?

Just wondering how you came about the conclusion that atheism is about "being smug and contend about knowing that there is none" regarding solutions. Nevermind though. It's getting hot and I'm kind of tired of this debate if we can call it that.

285 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:18:56pm

re: #283 Sergey Romanov

At 5:25 he calls her a "bitch".

I guess I don't need to see the whole thing.

286 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:20:02pm

re: #284 Gus 802

Just wondering how you came about the conclusion that atheism is about "being smug and contend about knowing that there is none" regarding solutions.

I didn't say that it was. That's how it appears to people looking for something to navigate their lives by. Just like religions appear to have positive solutions.

287 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:20:28pm

And please come back Dragon_Lady. I don't agree at all with what you said but... you know...

288 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:21:26pm

re: #284 Gus 802

Just wondering how you came about the conclusion that atheism is about "being smug and contend about knowing that there is none" regarding solutions. Nevermind though. It's getting hot and I'm kind of tired of this debate if we can call it that.

Let's go upstairs and take Killgore's tea!

289 Gus  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:21:51pm

re: #286 000G

I didn't say that it was. That's how it appears to people looking for something to navigate their lives by. Just like religions appear to have positive solutions.

Actually I like what you said about atheists being socially stigmatized. That would be a good tangent for discussion and the defensive nature. As far as nihilism is concerned it's something that atheists are either speaking too much of or trying to prevent from within the group.

290 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:23:31pm

re: #279 wrenchwench

Bad analogy.

Not at all.

internet-famous nerd magnet attends conference, stays out partying among fellow nerds until 4am.

Socially awkward nerd gets up enough courage to ask Nerd Magnet if she'd like to have some coffee and continue to discuss nerd things.

Nerd magnet declines, and that is that.

BUT LATER, nerd magnet posts a video implying that this is some sort of horribly creepy behavior.

Phil Plait, who is smart enough to know better, insists that this was very nearly a forcible rape, and that men shouldn't dare to talk to women, because it might make them scared.

INEXPLICABLY, A SHIT-TON OF PEOPLE AGREE. Yes, all men are Ted Bundy just waiting for the street light to go dark, and all women are delicate little unicorn feathers who exist for no other reason than to be raped by savage men who Just Don't Get It.

What the fuck is wrong with you people, and don't you have a debt ceiling thing to vote on?

291 allegro  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:25:25pm

re: #290 negativ

Not at all.

internet-famous nerd magnet attends conference, stays out partying among fellow nerds until 4am.

Socially awkward nerd gets up enough courage to ask Nerd Magnet if she'd like to have some coffee and continue to discuss nerd things.

Nerd magnet declines, and that is that.

BUT LATER, nerd magnet posts a video implying that this is some sort of horribly creepy behavior.

Phil Plait, who is smart enough to know better, insists that this was very nearly a forcible rape, and that men shouldn't dare to talk to women, because it might make them scared.

INEXPLICABLY, A SHIT-TON OF PEOPLE AGREE. Yes, all men are Ted Bundy just waiting for the street light to go dark, and all women are delicate little unicorn feathers who exist for no other reason than to be raped by savage men who Just Don't Get It.

What the fuck is wrong with you people, and don't you have a debt ceiling thing to vote on?

Way to misrepresent the thing just like the asshole in the video.

292 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:25:28pm

re: #280 Sergey Romanov

Shouts too much.

No shit. Did you read what I said?

293 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:29:20pm

re: #291 allegro

Way to misrepresent the thing just like the asshole in the video.

Well then by all means, paint me a picture.

294 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:31:34pm

re: #289 Gus 802

Actually I like what you said about atheists being socially stigmatized. That would be a good tangent for discussion and the defensive nature. As far as nihilism is concerned it's something that atheists are either speaking too much of or trying to prevent from within the group.

I think to understand religions, it's not enough to know about science and a little psychology. You also need to know literature, for instance, as a lot of religions rely on holy texts that are embedded very deeply into a lot of cultures. You also need to know about philosophy because a lot of religions embodied big chunks of philosophies in order to rationally defend certain dogmas.

But ultimatively, you need to understand the social nature of religion. Religions could not exist without societies, with their individuals living it and passing it on to others (at least the next generation). The social function is so essential to religions and their survival that religions have become very efficient at providing seemingly good answers to important social questions and putting themselves in a good light for society at large or their most powerful segments.

And I think atheism fails in this regard. Not just because religion has dominated societies for a long time and in this function vilified other religions but atheism (or better: anti-religiousity as well as absence of religiousity) but also because atheism also has been very inefficient in putting forth answers to social questions (it doesn't suffice to debunk the supposed social goodness of religions, people will still need something). Atheism usually appeals to the individual a lot. While that is not wrong, it's not enough (especially when it comes to affecting conservative societies rather than liberal ones).

295 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:33:06pm

re: #290 negativ

Not at all.

internet-famous nerd magnet attends conference, stays out partying among fellow nerds until 4am.

Socially awkward nerd gets up enough courage to ask Nerd Magnet if she'd like to have some coffee and continue to discuss nerd things.

Nerd magnet declines, and that is that.

BUT LATER, nerd magnet posts a video implying that this is some sort of horribly creepy behavior.

Phil Plait, who is smart enough to know better, insists that this was very nearly a forcible rape, and that men shouldn't dare to talk to women, because it might make them scared.

INEXPLICABLY, A SHIT-TON OF PEOPLE AGREE. Yes, all men are Ted Bundy just waiting for the street light to go dark, and all women are delicate little unicorn feathers who exist for no other reason than to be raped by savage men who Just Don't Get It.

What the fuck is wrong with you people, and don't you have a debt ceiling thing to vote on?


She just got done saying she doesn't like to be hit on. Guy hits on her, in an elevator, after she said she's done for the night.

Socially awkward nerd gets up enough courage to ask Nerd Magnet if she'd like to have some coffee and continue to discuss nerd things.

IN HIS ROOM. That makes a difference.

I'm not going to change your mind. so I'll quit trying.

296 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:33:09pm
because a lot of religions embodied big chunks of philosophies

incorporated, not embodied. d'uh

297 allegro  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:35:01pm

re: #293 negativ

Well then by all means, paint me a picture.

I'll let Amanda do it.

298 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:43:50pm

re: #297 allegro

I'll let Amanda do it.

Excellent.

299 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:45:12pm

re: #297 allegro

I'll let Amanda do it.

Thanks, that covered it really well.

I've gotten myself out of jams before, but my specialty is avoiding them. Like Amanda, I don't care if it makes me a bitch.

300 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:50:02pm

re: #292 negativ

No shit. Did you read what I said?

I watched this shouting guy's video, then Rebecca's video. I can imagine how creepy it could have been for her, depending on that "elevator" person's demeanor. So I don't suppose that she necessarily exaggerates. Dawkins should not have mocked her concerns. I just don't know why he would. That doesn't necessarily make him a misogynist, though. Just a dick.

301 jvic  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:53:16pm

1. re: #190 Dragon_Lady

Narcissism, racism, atheism and any ism out there that advocates anti-anything that pertains to color, religion, or creed turns my stomach. What happened to fairness, minding my own business and living peacefully with our fellow man? Since when has hurting the innocent or killing your fellow man just because he doesn't share your beliefs become the norm? Isn't this supposed to be the 20th century? Are we still just cave men and women at heart? When is humanity finally gonna grow up? Makes me want to become a hermit sometimes. I just don't get it. *sigh* Guess I never will...

I would have updinged this if not for the 'atheism'.

2. I agree with Gus 802 that it's regrettable you didn't stay to explain your post. However, I can imagine that the flurry of downdings--as opposed to requests for clarification--might not have left you in the mood for more.

3. Evangelicals are not thick on the ground in MA, even here in Scott Brown territory. I get on well with the few I know. Curiously, the most obnoxious people religion-wise that I've dealt with in MA have been militant atheists; to rephrase it with a bit of hyperbole, militant rationalists are the craziest people I've met here. (I am not claiming that my experience generalizes to all parts of the country.)

302 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:53:38pm

re: #292 negativ

Sorry, man, I'm normally a defender of peoples' right to approach each other without ill intentions being assumed, but if someone at 4:00 AM, tipsy, in an elevator, who's complained in general about being hit on, and says she's going to bed, then inviting her back to your room to 'talk' is a really goddamn stupid thing to do.

Moreover, she didn't name the guy. He could have-- and other guys could have-- just learned something from this, instead of defending their behavior.

303 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:55:00pm

re: #190 Dragon_Lady

Atheism doesn't involve anti-anything.

Which I"m sure people have told you quite frequently.

I'm an atheist. I have no problem with people who have religion, as long as they respect our secular society. I don't want to convince anyone else to be an atheist, either. If they happen to become one after hearing my views, cool, but it's not my job or desire to make that happen.

Most atheists I know are like me.

304 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:55:49pm

re: #300 Sergey Romanov

Dawkins should not have mocked her concerns. I just don't know why he would. That doesn't necessarily make him a misogynist, though. Just a dick.

Maybe he is just tone-deaf to a lot of social issues, especially the ones transcending his own experiences (i.e. female ones).

Would fit the atheist m.o. ;-)

305 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:57:08pm

re: #304 000G

Sorry, pal, but last sentence gets you a deserved ding ;)

306 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:58:27pm

I guess I should keep my Wiccan jokes to myself then, too.

/

307 Obdicut  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:58:45pm

re: #304 000G

You don't actually think there's an atheist MO, right?

308 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:59:46pm

re: #307 Obdicut

You don't actually think there's an atheist MO, right?

No, I was just making fun of my own generalizations further up thread.

I did find it funny though how Dawkins insisted that because there was no actual physical harm done, there was no foul and nothing to complain about.

309 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 4:21:07pm

re: #301 jvic


3. Evangelicals are not thick on the ground in MA, even here in Scott Brown territory. I get on well with the few I know. Curiously, the most obnoxious people religion-wise that I've dealt with in MA have been militant atheists; to rephrase it with a bit of hyperbole, militant rationalists are the craziest people I've met here. (I am not claiming that my experience generalizes to all parts of the country.)

Maybe this is dead, but I am curious in what situations you run into crazy militant atheists, outside of blogs that is?

Most people don't get hot about these things in the supermarket, work, or the local dive.

Where do you hang out?

310 jvic  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 4:42:28pm

re: #309 Naso Tang

Maybe this is dead, but I am curious in what situations you run into crazy militant atheists, outside of blogs that is?

Most people don't get hot about these things in the supermarket, work, or the local dive.

Where do you hang out?

IMO this topic is below critical mass at the moment, but I'll answer you.

The people I have in mind were encountered at work in a classified high-tech environment. Fwiw, I assessed them as talented underachievers. From time to time I run across similar attitudes online, but haven't saved links.

311 Achilles Tang  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 4:52:59pm

re: #310 jvic

I may be one online, but I haven't saved links./

312 Varek Raith  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 5:09:52pm

re: #190 Dragon_Lady

Narcissism, racism, atheism and any ism out there that advocates anti-anything that pertains to color, religion, or creed turns my stomach. What happened to fairness, minding my own business and living peacefully with our fellow man? Since when has hurting the innocent or killing your fellow man just because he doesn't share your beliefs become the norm? Isn't this supposed to be the 20th century? Are we still just cave men and women at heart? When is humanity finally gonna grow up? Makes me want to become a hermit sometimes. I just don't get it. *sigh* Guess I never will...

Atheism is not anti-religion.
Anti-theism is anti religion.
I simply believe there are no gods or goddesses.
How is that anti-religion?

313 abolitionist  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 7:17:56pm

...and contrary to popular leftist belief, not every Norwegian is Anders Breivik.

How very comforting. So that's a negatory on the eugenics- by-cloning theory, eh?
/

314 Rocktheboat  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:07:20am

re: #309 Naso Tang

''...the most obnoxious people religion-wise that I've dealt with in MA have been militant atheists...''

That's impossible. Dealing with atheists ''religion-wise.''

315 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:31:07am

re: #227 wrenchwench

IMHO, Dawkins jumped the shark over the elevator.

(I don't entirely agree with this author's conclusion, but it's close.)

HOORAY DAWKINS FINALLY MADE A MISTAKE. TOOK A LONG TIME, BUT NOW WE CAN IGNORE EVERYTHING HE EVER SAID!

316 boxhead  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:42:57am

re: #301 jvic

1.

I would have updinged this if not for the 'atheism'.

2. I agree with Gus 802 that it's regrettable you didn't stay to explain your post. However, I can imagine that the flurry of downdings--as opposed to requests for clarification--might not have left you in the mood for more.

3. Evangelicals are not thick on the ground in MA, even here in Scott Brown territory. I get on well with the few I know. Curiously, the most obnoxious people religion-wise that I've dealt with in MA have been militant atheists; to rephrase it with a bit of hyperbole, militant rationalists are the craziest people I've met here. (I am not claiming that my experience generalizes to all parts of the country.)

Maybe the dragon lady was trying to say is that ideological extremists, regardless of the belief, are just that, extreme. Any person unwilling to consider new or counter evidence can be a bore. If it ends there, fine. If they act like the annoying drunk at the sports bar pleading his case how *insert team here* will RULE, then that is the next level. The number of people willing to move to the next level lower as the levels climb. I think that any ideology can have that one nut at the top of the heap. Dragon listing those few examples without supporting references could be taken as poor taste, but, since I have yet to down ding anyone, I guess I don't understand the down dings on dragon. maybe there is history in which I am ignorant. oh well... it is what it is.

317 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:49:34am

re: #316 boxhead

> Maybe the dragon lady was trying to say is that ideological extremists, regardless of the belief, are just that, extreme.

Putting atheism together with racism is not close to what you wrote. Not by a 1000 miles.

Besides, then she would have to include Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism...

Yeah, Buddhism. Would you find it strange if she singled out Buddhists and put them on that list instead of atheists? I would. Though historically there were and are enough Buddhist assholes (e.g. old Tibet under Lamaistic theocracy was pretty bad). And I would also find similar excuses for her statement to be strange - "well, she must have meant those of Buddhists who are divisive militant assholes".

> I guess I don't understand the down dings on dragon

She put atheism together with racism. WTF is there to understand?

318 boxhead  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:57:34am

re: #316 boxhead

As a side note, speaking of the atheist vs religion debate, I stopped off at Cabazon yesterday. If you saw Pee Wee Big Adventure, it is where the dinosaurs are. I was shocked to learn that the whole place is run by hard core creationists. wow...

Image: CabazonDinosaurs-BuildingShapedLikeDinosaur.jpg

319 boxhead  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:08:18am

re: #317 Sergey Romanov

> Maybe the dragon lady was trying to say is that ideological extremists, regardless of the belief, are just that, extreme.

Putting atheism together with racism is not close to what you wrote. Not by a 1000 miles.

Besides, then she would have to include Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism...

Yeah, Buddhism. Would you find it strange if she singled out Buddhists and put them on that list instead of atheists? I would. Though historically there were and are enough Buddhist assholes (e.g. old Tibet under Lamaistic theocracy was pretty bad). And I would also find similar excuses for her statement to be strange - "well, she must have meant those of Buddhists who are divisive militant assholes".

> I guess I don't understand the down dings on dragon

She put atheism together with racism. WTF is there to understand?

Let me rephrase, I was merely trying to offer an alternate interpretation. One that does not necessarily say her list implied all those in the list are equal. But rather, all those on her list, as well as the ones you listed, have been used by extremists to further their cause, or by crazies to do crazy.

To me, and I would be willing to wager you as well, racism is already extreme. Thus her list had unequal categories. And yeah, honestly, I must have glossed over that fact... *beer*....

I have been communicating with folks via computers since the mid 80's. Writing a message that truly states what you want it to, to all, is not easy. Thus if I read something that I might find offensive, I try to break it down just to see if I am reading it wrong. I guess it is a nerd hobby of mine.... :)

320 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:14:40am

re: #319 boxhead

Putting them together pretty much implies they're at least comparable. While I'm not saying DL necessarily meant to slight all atheists, that's how it came out in the end and she didn't correct it.

321 boxhead  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:19:52am

re: #320 Sergey Romanov

Putting them together pretty much implies they're at least comparable. While I'm not saying DL necessarily meant to slight all atheists, that's how it came out in the end and she didn't correct it.

And that was her biggest mistake. but again, maybe she meant it as it appears... and all my over analysis was a exercise in futility... heh

322 boxhead  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:22:08am

ok... enough for tonight.... good chat Sergey...

good night all

323 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:22:53am

re: #322 boxhead

G'night.

324 Mickey Blumental  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 11:30:37am

You don't dig up into your archives to erase insensitive material. It's deep down in the archives - very few people are going to be exposed to the material in the short time-frame it's arguably insensitive.

Quietly editing posts in your archives is a feeble attempt to re-write history.

Can you imagine a news website editing an archived article from a few years ago? Well, other than Fox News.

325 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:39:24pm

re: #315 Jimmah
FYI wrench, my comment was aimed at the usual Dawkins haters who have been drooling over this incident and hyping it up like crazy. AFAIK you aren't one of them.

326 wrenchwench  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 5:21:02pm

re: #325 Jimmah

FYI wrench, my comment was aimed at the usual Dawkins haters who have been drooling over this incident and hyping it up like crazy. AFAIK you aren't one of them.

That's good. You just saved me from writing a scathing post. Whew.

327 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 7:38:11am

re: #277 000G


I think a big problem of atheism is that it is defensive in nature and negative in a lot of its arguments. Religions offer solutions, and even if they are bullshit solutions, people in general will always drift towards what is supposed to be a solution more than being smug and contend about knowing that there is none.

I know, why should they be defensive. "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." (George H.W. Bush) for one of many examples.

Contrary to 200 years previously with this ratified by the TRUE FOUNDING FATHERS:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
- Treaty of Tripoli


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