Video: Republicans Call for Raising the Debt Ceiling (In 2004)

When a white conservative was in the White House
Politics • Views: 50,392

Marvel as Republicans strongly urge a debt ceiling hike, because it’s a matter of responsibility and good governance! Thrill as right wing Congressmen describe refusing to raise the debt limit as “demagoguery!”

… In 2002 and 2004.

Youtube Video

Jump to bottom

325 comments

1 Kid A  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:51:19pm

Republican in White House = Spend, spend, spend.
Black Democrat in White House = Cut, cut, cut.

2 jaunte  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:52:23pm

But now, it's completely different, and irresponsible, or something.

3 Kid A  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:52:34pm

God, my fucking eyes and ears.

4 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:52:57pm

Eh, if Dems and Obama had spine, they would install a big TV screen in Congress and would play these clips without stop.

only half-/

5 Spocomptonite  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:53:12pm

Be amazed as some of these people are in the debacle of today!

6 jaunte  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:53:18pm

America's responsibility to pay its bills!

7 Kid A  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:53:54pm

re: #6 jaunte

America's responsibility to pay its bills!

Fiscal responsibility and individual freedom!
//

8 Charleston Chew  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:54:46pm

A reminder that the problem here isn't rigid ideologues. That would be a step up.

The problem is self-serving a-holes who would sink the ship in exchange for a lifeboat full of gold.

9 celticdragon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:54:51pm
When a white conservative was in the White House

This cannot be emphasized enough.

I wanted to scream at the TV when watching Maher on Friday night when the Tea Party idiot derped that the Tea Party existed when Bush was in office and had resisted his budget insanity.

It is all about hate. Personalized, raw, unhinged hate.

10 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:55:15pm

re: #2 jaunte

But now, it's completely different, and irresponsible, or something.

We elected a Seekrit Mooslim black man from Kenya to the White House! Who knows what he's capable of if we raise the debt ceiling?

/Tea Party

11 laZardo  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:55:39pm

re: #9 celticdragon

This cannot be emphasized enough.

I wanted to scream at the TV when watching Maher on Friday night when the Tea Party idiot derped that the Tea Party existed when Bush was in office and had resisted his budget insanity.

It is all about hate. Personalized, raw, unhinged hate.

Hate gets votes. The fact that they insist on going all the way to default with this could actually win them office next year.

12 Charleston Chew  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:55:40pm

re: #4 Sergey Romanov

if Dems and Obama had spine,

That's a pretty big "if".

13 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:56:32pm

You don't understand. Obama changed everything. You wanted change? Here it is.

14 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:56:33pm

re: #4 Sergey Romanov

Eh, if Dems and Obama had spine, they would install a big TV screen in Congress and would play these clips without stop.

only half-/

You've never paid much attention to the Democratic party, I take it.

15 recusancy  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:56:57pm

Ha. Dave Camp's my rep.

16 Kid A  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:57:21pm

re: #9 celticdragon

This cannot be emphasized enough.

I wanted to scream at the TV when watching Maher on Friday night when the Tea Party idiot derped that the Tea Party existed when Bush was in office and had resisted his budget insanity.

It is all about hate. Personalized, raw, unhinged hate.

I had to bold that because it's so true. That derp about Bush just caused me to spit my adult beverage all over my screen.

17 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:57:57pm

2004!! That was before the Founding Fathers (PBUT) discovered the Balanced Budget Commandment!!

18 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:57:59pm

re: #14 Lidane

You've never paid much attention to the Democratic party, I take it.


Do you mean they had spine and lost it, or something?

19 Surabaya Stew  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:58:02pm

Dont forget that around the same time, the GOP twisted the house rules to get the 32 trillion dollar unfunded liability of Medicare part D passed. Its the same kind of short-sighted and intellectually challenged thinking in a way, that we can borrow and spend as much as we please....only as long as a Republican is POTUS!

20 jaunte  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:58:29pm

re: #9 celticdragon

I wanted to scream at the TV when watching Maher on Friday night when the Tea Party idiot derped that the Tea Party existed when Bush was in office and had resisted his budget insanity.


21 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:59:18pm

re: #19 Surabaya Stew

Dont forget that around the same time, the GOP twisted the house rules to get the 32 trillion dollar unfunded liability of Medicare part D passed. Its the same kind of short-sighted and intellectually challenged thinking in a way, that we can borrow and spend as much as we please...only as long as a Republican is POTUS!

But Reagan proved deficits don't matter!

22 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:59:38pm

re: #5 Spocomptonite

Be amazed as some of these people are in the debacle of today!

How many are?

23 Charleston Chew  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:59:42pm

Lewis (R-California): "I didn't like raising [the debt ceiling], but sometimes you've got to govern around here."

This must not be one of those times.

24 jaunte  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 1:59:53pm

re: #9 celticdragon

That must have been back when the Tea Party was called "Ron Paul"

25 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:00:34pm

re: #19 Surabaya Stew

This is why I feel the biggest problem is Americans not being informed, not informing themselves. For those who are honestly concerned about government spending, Medicare Part D should be one of their biggest bugbears. But the Tea Party and the rest don't even know what it is.

And the GOP takes advantage of that, coddles that, and basically tells them not to worry about the facts. Their platform is inherently dishonest and based on a false history that never occurred.

I do not know how those who do know these facts yet support them. There are still a few.

26 laZardo  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:01:43pm

re: #24 jaunte

That must have been back when the Tea Party was called "Ron Paul"

Sabotage the economy, then swoop in with the Gold Standard as the panacea.

Clever bastards.

/partial

27 celticdragon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:01:50pm

re: #23 Charleston Chew

Lewis (R-California): "I didn't like raising [the debt ceiling], but sometimes you've got to govern around here."

This must not be one of those times.

Christ on a Crutch...Jerry Lewis (R/Calif...Redlands, Yucaipa) is still in congress??!

28 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:01:55pm

Obama admitted that he voted against raising the debt ceiling as a young senator out of a desire to engage in some political profiling. Another one of those odd ironies of politics...

29 jaunte  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:01:58pm

re: #23 Charleston Chew

If there's any chance Obama might look good, there's no incentive for responsible action.

30 Gus  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:02:07pm

Now is not the time to be messing with raising the debt ceiling... DURING THIS TIME OF WAR!

You're either with us or against.

31 Charleston Chew  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:03:13pm

re: #18 Sergey Romanov

Do you mean they had spine and lost it, or something?

They had it back in '48. (Skip to 4:00)

32 Kronocide  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:03:26pm

re: #30 Gus 802

Now is not the time to be messing with raising the debt ceiling... DURING THIS TIME OF WAR!

You're either with us or against.

YOU WIN SP-INTERNETS, again.

33 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:03:39pm

re: #25 Obdicut

This is why I feel the biggest problem is Americans not being informed, not informing themselves.

Not entirely true. Many are informed largely by their elected leaders, and should be. In this case they are being misinformed and lied to on the most trivial issues.

34 celticdragon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:03:40pm

re: #30 Gus 802

Now is not the time to be messing with raising the debt ceiling... DURING THIS TIME OF WAR!

You're either with us or against.

But don't question their patriotism or they will threaten that they have to ..."hurt some people".

35 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:03:52pm

Somebody should scour wingnut blogs ca. 02-04 for defense of this.

36 Buck  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:04:18pm

The debt ceiling is an economic issue.

There are many economic differences in between 2004 and 2011.

37 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:05:33pm

re: #36 Buck

The debt ceiling is an economic issue.

There are many economic differences in between 2004 and 2011.

There are no difference between then and now when it comes to paying one's bills; but you are changing the subject, aren't you?

38 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:05:34pm

re: #36 Buck

The debt ceiling is an economic issue.

There are many economic differences in between 2004 and 2011.

True.

And now the The TEAGOP is refusing to reap what Bush sewed.

39 Kronocide  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:06:12pm

re: #36 Buck

The debt ceiling is an economic issue.

There are many economic differences in between 2004 and 2011.

Exactly, and 2011 warrants it much more than 2004. I'm glad you agree.

40 jaunte  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:06:27pm

re: #35 Sergey Romanov

Somebody should scour wingnut blogs ca. 02-04 for defense of this.

There's a good chance no one noticed it happening back then.

41 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:06:35pm

re: #36 Buck

Don't you ever get dizzy from all that spin?

42 kirkspencer  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:06:57pm

I'm watching all this off and on, thinking dark thoughts.

Last week I thought Albusteve was right - that we'd get /something/ to block the default. I still think it's possible, it's just what we're going to get is so ugly it's just short of being the default itself.

The general outlines are cutting between one and three Trillion from GDP (in the form of cutting government expenditures) over the next ten years. About a quarter of it is in this upcoming year.

$250B is about 2% of GDP. That gives us a further 1% increase in unemployment (okun's observation). It also moves us negative given the previous six month's growth has been less than 1.5% (annualized).

And that is just the direct impact. There are a number of states hanging on the edge; a Fed Expenditure cut will hit them as well. Depending on specifics, the states' cuts would hit GDP for another 1 to 2%.

I'm not sure default would be worse at this point.

43 celticdragon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:08:12pm

re: #36 Buck

The debt ceiling is an economic issue.

There are many economic differences in between 2004 and 2011.

Like a fucking unfunded Medicare Part D, years of multiple wars, tax cuts that did not bring in revenue, to say nothing of the immolation of the financial sector after GOP mandated deregulation...

Shall I go on, Bucky?

44 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:09:04pm

re: #43 celticdragon

Like a fucking unfunded Medicare Part D, years of multiple wars that were kept off the books in those years, tax cuts that did not bring in revenue, to say nothing of the immolation of the financial sector after GOP mandated deregulation...

Shall I go on, Bucky?

45 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:09:42pm

re: #42 kirkspencer


$250B is about 2% of GDP. That gives us a further 1% increase in unemployment (okun's observation). It also moves us negative given the previous six month's growth has been less than 1.5% (annualized).

This is why nobody is talking jobs. They know the largest contributor to new unemployment for some time will be the government. In fact I believe it already is.

46 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:10:22pm

re: #43 celticdragon

Like a fucking unfunded Medicare Part D, years of multiple wars, tax cuts that did not bring in revenue, to say nothing of the immolation of the financial sector after GOP mandated deregulation...

Shall I go on, Bucky?

Pfft. Those things only matter when a Democrat is in the White House.

When a Republican is in power, it's spend ahoy! Who cares about deficits, wars, or anything else?

47 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:10:59pm

re: #36 Buck

The debt ceiling is an economic issue.

There are many economic differences in between 2004 and 2011.

Like the economic difference of a black guy in office that a bunch of fat busted old angry white people really really hate

48 laZardo  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:11:21pm

I have no respect for conservative ideology.

I'm pretty sure I no longer have any respect for anyone that bears it either, especially on this site.

49 jaunte  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:12:43pm

During Bush Presidency, Current GOP Leaders Voted 19 Times To Increase Debt Limit By $4 Trillion

June 2002: Congress approves a $450 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $6.4 trillion. McConnell, Boehner, and Cantor vote “yea”, Kyl votes “nay.”

May 2003: Congress approves a $900 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $7.384 trillion. All four approve.

November 2004: Congress approves an $800 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $8.1 trillion. All four approve.

March 2006: Congress approves a $781 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $8.965 trillion. All four approve.

September 2007: Congress approves an $850 billion increase, raising the debt limit to $9.815 trillion. All four approve.
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

50 jaunte  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:14:03pm

re: #46 Lidane

Pfft. Those things only matter when a Democrat is in the White House.

When a Republican is in power, it's spend ahoy! Who cares about deficits, wars, or anything else?

Party on!

Database searches revealed no demands from the four legislators that debt increases come accompanied by drastic spending cuts, as there are now. In fact, the May 2003 debt limit increase passed the Senate the same day as the $350 billion Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
51 Gus  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:14:08pm

Why in 2004 we were hot on the trail of Saddam Hussein's ICBMs (nookylar weapons)! Not raising the debt limit would have meant the destruction of WESTERN CIVILIZATION and America as we know it!!11ty

52 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:14:09pm

re: #49 jaunte

During Bush Presidency, Current GOP Leaders Voted 19 Times To Increase Debt Limit By $4 Trillion

And it's only an issue now, after a Democrat gets elected.

53 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:15:02pm

re: #50 jaunte

Just imagine how furious they'll be when their attempt to sabotage Obama and get a Republican elected fails anyway!

54 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:15:40pm

re: #36 Buck

The debt ceiling is an economic issue.

There are many economic differences in between 2004 and 2011.

Buck, unless you specify concrete differences that are responsible for voting the opposite ways, this claim is a diversion.

55 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:15:59pm

re: #52 Lidane

And it's only an issue now, after a Democrat gets elected.

Clinton had an impeachment to try and destroy him, I guess Obama gets this!

Republicans lol

56 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:17:08pm

re: #54 Sergey Romanov

Buck, unless you specify concrete differences that are responsible for voting the opposite ways, this claim is a diversion.

Every post of Buck's is a diversion. All he ever does is play the Magical Balance Fairy card.

Too bad the MBF is currently too busy slamming her head into a wall in frustration over the debt limit idiocy to play along right now.

57 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:19:21pm

The sides are consistent. Always trying to stop the President.

58 recusancy  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:20:59pm

re: #57 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The sides are consistent. Always trying to stop the President.

No. They're not. The other side does not hold the nation hostage.

59 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:21:27pm

re: #57 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The sides are consistent. Always trying to stop the President.

Which is why the Dem's always filibustered the debt ceiling ... oh wait.

60 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:22:32pm

The Tea Party candidates got elected on a clear platform of lowering taxes, cutting spending and not going along with politics as usual. Whatever else you can say about these folks, they are being mind-numbingly consistent in this respect.

61 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:23:26pm

re: #58 recusancy

No. They're not. The other side does not hold the nation hostage.

give the GOP the Dept of Education....that'll mollify them....maybe toss in the Dept of Agriculture....think big!

62 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:25:47pm

re: #60 ralphieboy

The Tea Party candidates got elected on a clear platform of lowering taxes, cutting spending and not going along with politics as usual. Whatever else you can say about these folks, they are being mind-numbingly consistent in this respect.

So they'd make good kamikaze pilots.

63 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:28:55pm

re: #62 Decatur Deb

They see themselves with a clear mandate to change the way Washington does business, in in one repsect they are succeeding.

Succeeding at causing a major failure, yes...

64 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:28:58pm

re: #54 Sergey Romanov

Buck, unless you specify concrete differences that are responsible for voting the opposite ways, this claim is a diversion.

Of course. He changes the subject. All conservatives have taken a course in that.

65 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:31:00pm

re: #64 Naso Tang

Of course. He changes the subject. All conservatives have taken a course in that.

my answer to everything, say Gus
[Link: www3.sympatico.ca...]

66 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:31:04pm

re: #60 ralphieboy

The Tea Party candidates got elected on a clear platform of lowering taxes, cutting spending and not going along with politics as usual. Whatever else you can say about these folks, they are being mind-numbingly consistent in this respect.

Actually that is what they think they were elected for. The electorate thought they would improve government, not destroy it.

67 celticdragon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:33:05pm

Breaking news:

Reid agrees to a compromise deal between The POTUS and McConnell...

68 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:34:02pm

Damn I missed Buck the Canadian arguing for the fall of the US? What you miss while waiting for your pizza!!

69 jamesfirecat  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:35:19pm

re: #68 Stanley Sea

Damn I missed Buck the Canadian arguing for the fall of the US? What you miss while waiting for your pizza!!

Once the US economy defaults he'll be able to dash on over to the Great Canadian Midway, and cash in a bunch of dollars for way more tokens than they're worth!

70 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:36:40pm

re: #66 Naso Tang

Actually that is what they think they were elected for. The electorate thought they would improve government, not destroy it.


They were indisuptably clear on their messge and their ideology: lower taxes, cut spending, change business as usual. They convinced enough people that this would improve government.

I disagree with them on most all points, but they have been most irritatingly consitent.

71 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:38:14pm

re: #70 ralphieboy

They were indisuptably clear on their messge and their ideology: lower taxes, cut spending, change business as usual. They convinced enough people that this would improve government.

I disagree with them on most all points, but they have been most irritatingly consitent.

yeah, I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around the notion that a pol would lie....unconceivable!

72 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:38:36pm

From The Wall Street Journal Live Blog: 5:35 pmLiberals and Conservatives Agree: There’s Plenty to Dislike in the Debt Fracasby WSJ StaffAdd a Comment It’s often said that the sign of a good compromise is that almost no one is happy with it. Details of the debt ceiling deal worked out behind closed doors during the past several hours still aren’t out, and already liberal Democrats and conservative Republicans are grousing.

"We Democrats have already given 80%," said Sen. Barbara Mikulski (D., Md.), who said her party had already made a major concession last year in allowing the Bush-era tax cuts to be extended. "Now it's time for the other side to do that," she said.

Sen. Pat Toomey (R., Pa.), who has led calls for substantial spending cuts without raising taxes, on Friday called the deal-making process “discouraging.” The result, he predicted, “some kind of bipartisan deal that will raise the debt ceiling but not solve the underlying problem.” He said he will keep pressing for a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein, (D., Calif.) says she’s not pleased with the way the debt ceiling deal went down. “But you know, as they say, sausage making isn't pretty," she said. "The sausage we have, I think, is a very different sausage than when we started."

Alabama Republican Sen. Jeff Sessions expressed dismay with the way Congress has handled the issue.

"We've ended up with a process where people people meet in secret to produce a product that all are supposed to vote for," he said today.

73 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:43:01pm

re: #71 albusteve

yeah, I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around the notion that a pol would lie...unconceivable!


This is one point about the TP that almost makes them admirable in their own cantakerous, ideologically hidebound way: they said quite clearly what they were gonna do and now they are doing it. Most entirely different from "politics as usual".

74 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:44:47pm

re: #70 ralphieboy

They were indisuptably clear on their messge and their ideology: lower taxes, cut spending, change business as usual. They convinced enough people that this would improve government.

I disagree with them on most all points, but they have been most irritatingly consitent.

What they are consistent about is avoiding reality. There is an asshole TP rep on MSNBC now. All he does when asked a question is change the subject, like saying the problem is not with him, but everyone else the last 30 years. Nope, nothing to do with me.//

75 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:47:06pm

re: #73 ralphieboy

This is one point about the TP that almost makes them admirable in their own cantakerous, ideologically hidebound way: they said quite clearly what they were gonna do and now they are doing it. Most entirely different from "politics as usual".

an entirely new sausage....history!
I'm not too worried about it....have to see how it shakes out...from the WSJ link above, Pat Toomey says the deal won't fix the underlying problem but dies not describe what that is...wonder why?...does he know he has done absolutely nothing to help get people back to work?...I hate the feds and this is why...the electorate are ignorant, but not stupid

76 sod  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:50:09pm

Was that Peter Graves?

77 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:51:32pm

re: #76 sod
I think it was Warner of Virginia.

78 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:52:20pm

re: #74 Naso Tang

What they are consistent about is avoiding reality. There is an asshole TP rep on MSNBC now. All he does when asked a question is change the subject, like saying the problem is not with him, but everyone else the last 30 years. Nope, nothing to do with me.//


Granted, their very message was inconsistent with reality, but they managed to sell it to enough voters to get elected as a bloc that has the ability to put a real big stick into the wheels of government.

And they would rather see it break than pull the stick out.

And yes, they think they can come in and undo the political establishement without breaking it and reshaping it in their own image.

I have been in relationships like that, but that is personal life, not governance.

79 Spocomptonite  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:52:27pm

re: #75 albusteve

an entirely new sausage...history!
I'm not too worried about it...have to see how it shakes out...from the WSJ link above, Pat Toomey says the deal won't fix the underlying problem but dies not describe what that is...wonder why?...does he know he has done absolutely nothing to help get people back to work?...I hate the feds and this is why...the electorate are ignorant, but not stupid

I'll wager that a substantial minority are both.

80 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:58:38pm

re: #79 Spocomptonite

I'll wager that a substantial minority are both.

the typical voter is uninformed, radically so...pols know it and abuse their trust...I spent a lot of time in Jamaica and politics is the national pastime...even illiterates know what's been said, understands repercussions, debate issues then walk all day to the polls to vote....they are not self absorbed like we are...it's not an impossible situation but little will change here until our hull is holed and the bilges flood...maybe that time is coming as a result of this latest fed caper

81 laZardo  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:00:34pm

re: #79 Spocomptonite

I'll wager that a substantial minority are both.

Swing votes. Duh.

82 sod  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:01:22pm

re: #47 WindUpBird

Yeah! Old people suck! Down with old people!!

83 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:02:43pm

re: #82 sod

Yeah! Old people suck! Down with old people!!

OUT WITH THE OLD!!!!!!!

84 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:02:50pm

Pamela Geller: Summer Camp? Antisemitic Indoctrination Training Center

The slaughter was horrific. What these kids were being taught and instructed to do was a different kind of grotesque. There is no justification for Breivik's actions whatsoever. There is also no justification for Norway's antisemitism and demonization of Israel.
....

Glen Beck was not far off when he compared it to the Hitlerjugend or Young Pioneers.

85 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:03:20pm
86 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:03:28pm

re: #48 laZardo

I have no respect for conservative ideology.

I'm pretty sure I no longer have any respect for anyone that bears it either, especially on this site.

Unless you adopt the extreme conservative ideal of blatant dichotomies in everything then you have a problem because there are many here who have some conservative ideals even if in general they come down left of centre.

87 jaunte  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:04:15pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

I think I see a justification creeping in there.

88 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:04:42pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

A comment....

What is really sad and inexcusable is that the Labour Party of Norway (and their socialist beliefs) have appointed themselves as victims above the actual murder victims and their families. Hopefully placing themselves above criticism. Unfortunately it's working.
89 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:04:42pm

re: #87 jaunte

I think I see a justification creeping in there.

It's absolutely clear justification.

90 Kragar  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:04:43pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Pamela Geller: Summer Camp? Antisemitic Indoctrination Training Center

There are no fucking buts involved when talking about slaughtering kids.

91 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:04:47pm

re: #79 Spocomptonite

I'll wager that a substantial minority are both.

Nope. Big numbers mean the electorate should be of average intelligence, though a few pressures, like disenfranchisement and lack of interest, mean it's actually a little above average.

92 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:04:55pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Pamela Geller: Murdering kids is swell, as long as they're liberals!

93 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:05:08pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Pamela Geller: Summer Camp? Antisemitic Indoctrination Training Center

Fitting with the tread. DEMAGOGY! It's what's working!

94 jaunte  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:05:35pm

re: #89 Obdicut

Pam the Jedi: "You didn't read what I just wrote."

95 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:05:39pm

re: #83 WindUpBird

OUT WITH THE OLD!!!

You, again?

96 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:05:42pm

Pamela Geller: Swigging from breakfast scotch and cheering on the Norway killer!

97 Kragar  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:05:49pm

re: #89 Obdicut

It's absolutely clear justification.

Which means they're also justifying Beslan, or the instances of targeting Israeli kids.

There are no excuses.

98 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:05:58pm

Another....

It appears the pro-Nazi, anti-Jewish feelings still doninate much of Norway. I wonder if we will ever find out how much of the activities on that island are funded by islamists?
It's still tragic, but I don't feel quite so sorry for them now.
99 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:06:04pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Pamela Geller: Summer Camp? Antisemitic Indoctrination Training Center

Wait. Didn't she bleat something about insensitivity yesterday?

100 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:06:25pm

re: #1 Kid A

Republican in White House = Spend, spend, spend.
Black Democrat in White House = Cut, cut, cut.

There's an old joke I heard some time in the late 80s which I still think it's true. Democrats are tax and spend. But Republicans are spend and tax.

101 Kragar  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:06:33pm

re: #99 Sergey Romanov

Wait. Didn't she bleat something about insensitivity yesterday?

You insensitivity, not hers.

102 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:06:40pm

re: #95 Decatur Deb

You, again?

It's an Evan Dorkin comic, he hates everyone! :D The guy SERVED ME A PERFECT OPPORTUNITY

103 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:07:00pm

re: #96 WindUpBird

Pamela Geller: Swigging from breakfast scotch and cheering on the Norway killer!

Breakfast Vodka. Better hidden on the breath (I've heard)

104 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:07:31pm

re: #90 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There are no fucking buts involved when talking about slaughtering kids.

millions of words that have little to do with kids....his politics really don't interest me, not to say there is no value to understanding the guy...but it becomes an exercise in intellectualism, almost a distraction

105 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:07:36pm

re: #94 jaunte

Pam the Jedi: "You didn't read what I just wrote."

Pam. PAM! Get her off the couch. PAM! The light saber is not a swizzle stick!

106 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:08:07pm

re: #82 sod

Yeah! Old people suck! Down with old people!!

re: #83 WindUpBird

OUT WITH THE OLD!!!

Stop it you two, or I'll play the ageist card.

107 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:08:29pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Pamela Geller: Summer Camp? Antisemitic Indoctrination Training Center

So is she justifying those kids dying? It's starting to sound that way.

108 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:08:40pm

re: #92 WindUpBird

Pamela Geller: Murdering kids is swell, as long as they're liberals!

It's such an open display of support and justification for attacking the camp that I'm shocked that even she's stupid enough to post that.
It's not a Pro Israel rally but that doesn't mean they children are Nazis. If she has any sense she'll delete that soon.

109 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:08:55pm

re: #106 b_sharp

re: #83 WindUpBird

Stop it you two, or I'll play the ageist card.

Half the music I like was recorded before I was born, you know I'm only screwing around :D

110 laZardo  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:09:44pm

re: #106 b_sharp

re: #83 WindUpBird

Stop it you two, or I'll play the ageist card.

These days, 25 is the new 50. :p

111 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:10:01pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

Another...

Oh! For! Fuck! Sakes!

112 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:10:02pm

re: #108 Killgore Trout

It's such an open display of support and justification for attacking the camp that I'm shocked that even she's stupid enough to post that.
It's not a Pro Israel rally but that doesn't mean they children are Nazis. If she has any sense she'll delete that soon.

She's great, isn't she? No self-awareness

113 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:10:02pm

re: #99 Sergey Romanov

Wait. Didn't she bleat something about insensitivity yesterday?

It's only insensitive if you criticize her or anyone who agrees with her.

Everyone else can fuck off, apparently.

114 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:10:59pm

re: #105 WindUpBird

Pam. PAM! Get her off the couch. PAM! The light saber is not a swizzle stick!

She should at least use a condom.

115 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:11:02pm

re: #107 Lidane

So is she justifying those kids dying? It's starting to sound that way.

Sort of. If you read the whole thing she claims she doesn't support killing the children but they were being indoctrinated to hate Jews. She's basically trying to lessen sympathy for the victims.

116 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:12:08pm

re: #109 WindUpBird

Half the music I like was recorded before I was born, you know I'm only screwing around :D

I screw around every bit as well as you. ;P

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:12:20pm

re: #107 Lidane

So is she justifying those kids dying? It's starting to sound that way.

My question is, is she leaning that way because she knows it's her niche to appeal to extremists? or is she a fanatic herself?

Is it more craven blog gamesmanship for some sense of adoration, or is she just hideous to her shriveled veiny booze-sodden soul?

118 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:12:21pm

re: #115 Killgore Trout

Sort of. If you read the whole thing she claims she doesn't support killing the children but they were being indoctrinated to hate Jews. She's basically trying to lessen sympathy for the victims.

So it's not such a bad thing that they died because they would have ended up, in her twisted mind, hating Jews?

What a psychopath. I can't even deal with that level of fail.

119 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:12:36pm

re: #116 b_sharp

I screw around every bit as well as you. ;P

probably much better, honestly *_*

120 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:12:59pm

re: #113 Lidane

It's only insensitive if you criticize her or anyone who agrees with her.

Everyone else can fuck off, apparently.

No, what I mean is her explanation of silent removal of the "stockpiling" sentence. Because it was insensitive!

121 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:13:16pm

re: #101 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You insensitivity, not hers.

You're being insensitive if you mourn the loss of liberal nazi muslim children.

122 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:13:36pm

The comments at Pam's site are just insane....

Once an Islamo-Nazi country, always so ... . Reminds me of Hitler Youth on steroids. Probably, a few of these teens had real misgivings about advocating for the destruction of The Jewish Homeland of Israel, but I would venture a guess that at least 75-95% would be glad to see all Jews sent to concentration camps. Let's face it, that's much of Europe for you ... Islamo-Nazi-Opia. And one of their own just slapped 'em upside their heads big time. It was bound to happen.


Look how easily these people are swayed from being outraged by the attack but now justify the killing of children who don;t support their agenda.

123 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:14:19pm

re: #121 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You're being insensitive if you mourn the loss of liberal nazi muslim children.

they're part of the ummah or something, I read it on a blog written by a douchedick

124 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:14:37pm

re: #120 Sergey Romanov

No, what I mean is her explanation of silent removal of the "stockpiling" sentence. Because it was insensitive!

Ha!. Very good point.

125 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:15:09pm

re: #115 Killgore Trout

Sort of. If you read the whole thing she claims she doesn't support killing the children but they were being indoctrinated to hate Jews. She's basically trying to lessen sympathy for the victims.

She is so fucked up.

126 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:15:34pm

re: #122 Killgore Trout


"Islamo-nazi!" It's like all their comments were proofread by Onion writers for maximum absurdism


YES, ISLAMONAZIOPIA! THE NEW FROZEN FRUIT CONFECTION BY BLUMPCO

127 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:15:58pm

re: #117 WindUpBird

My question is, is she leaning that way because she knows it's her niche to appeal to extremists? or is she a fanatic herself?

Is it more craven blog gamesmanship for some sense of adoration, or is she just hideous to her shriveled veiny booze-sodden soul?

Probably a lot of both.

I was wondering briefly yesterday if she's putting those people on to provoke them. But it's hard to tell with true-believer fanatics, who are already caricatures of normalcy, anyway.

128 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:16:01pm

re: #125 Stanley Sea

She is so fucked up.

breakfast scotch and a martini lunch

129 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:16:32pm

re: #123 WindUpBird

they're part of the ummah or something, I read it on a blog written by a douchedick

Probably some manifesto has it, somewhere.

130 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:16:59pm

Another comment....

Don't think for ONE second that there won't be other incidents like this, worldwide, if this stuff continues. And on a larger scale, why did Charles "The Hammer" Martel become famous? He was famous because he managed to drive back the invading muslim hordes from taking over Europe. Think someone like that won't rise again? You can BET that will happen. It is only a matter of time. Was he a crazy person? Who knows, but he certainly managed to keep Europe intact, and drove the muslims back from whence they came!
131 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:17:26pm

re: #128 WindUpBird

breakfast scotch and a martini lunch

that's just insane....Bloody Mary's make the best breakfast drink

132 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:17:37pm

re: #122 Killgore Trout

The comments at Pam's site are just insane...


Look how easily these people are swayed from being outraged by the attack but now justify the killing of children who don;t support their agenda.

And they turn it into their own martyrdom. Fucked up.

133 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:18:00pm

re: #48 laZardo

I have no respect for conservative ideology.

I'm pretty sure I no longer have any respect for anyone that bears it either, especially on this site.

So then its war, huh?

134 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:18:06pm

re: #122 Killgore Trout

Look how easily these people are swayed from being outraged by the attack but now justify the killing of children who don;t support their agenda.

They've been so thoroughly indoctrinated to hate anything that has the slightest whiff of liberalism that they'll justify anything. Even murder.

This is what the far right has become, and the kind of twisted mentality that people like Pam Geller feed. It's crazy.

135 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:19:11pm

re: #133 Dark_Falcon

So then its war, huh?

Hyperbole.

136 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:19:35pm

re: #131 albusteve

that's just insane...Bloody Mary's make the best breakfast drink

That's the only mixed drink I've ever really had in the morning, totally true

137 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:19:43pm

Image: island+youths+1.jpg

Pam Captions this picture....

Note the faces which are more MIddle Eastern or mixed than pure Norwegian

A total of 2 non-whites.


138 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:20:40pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

Image: island+youths+1.jpg

Pam Captions this picture...

A total of 2 non-whites.

Let's try that again...
Image: island+youths+1.jpg

139 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:20:47pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

Image: island+youths+1.jpg

Pam Captions this picture...

A total of 2 non-whites.


She can spot one in a picture a thousand miles away.

140 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:20:57pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

Image: island+youths+1.jpg

Pam Captions this picture...

A total of 2 non-whites.

Not found error.

141 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:21:01pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Pamela Geller: Summer Camp? Antisemitic Indoctrination Training Center

Just leave off the 'but' for one post Pam, just one. A one sentence post will do.

She won't of course, since in her mind the people who died were asking for it somewhat by "support Hamas". That's not true. What is true is that those who call for a boycott of Israel are very wrong, but it does make them evil.

142 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:21:09pm

Another part of the spin placed on the massacres was thier indignation at the leftists' "glee" at the killer being a (nominal) Christian and a nationalist conservative.

That was not glee, that was just affirmation of their assertion that this sort of ideology would someday turn ugly.

143 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:21:26pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

Let's try that again...
Image: island+youths+1.jpg

Another 404.

144 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:21:59pm

re: #130 Killgore Trout

Another comment...

Think someone like that won't rise again? You can BET that will happen. It is only a matter of time. Was he a crazy person? Who knows, but he certainly managed to keep Europe intact, and drove the muslims back from whence they came!

So did Vlad the Impaler. Oh wait, they love him, too.

145 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:22:07pm

re: #143 b_sharp

Another 404.

I can't link it, you'll have to go over to see for yourself.

146 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:22:28pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

Just leave off the 'but' for one post Pam, just one. A one sentence post will do.

She won't of course, since in her mind the people who died were asking for it somewhat by "support Hamas". That's not true. What is true is that those who call for a boycott of Israel are very wrong, but it does make them evil.

If you support the deaths of children because they support Hamas, then you've become Hamas.

147 laZardo  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:22:52pm

re: #133 Dark_Falcon

So then its war, huh?

148 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:23:09pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

Just leave off the 'but' for one post Pam, just one. A one sentence post will do.

She won't of course, since in her mind the people who died were asking for it somewhat by "support Hamas". That's not true. What is true is that those who call for a boycott of Israel are very wrong, but it does make them evil.

kids are not evil 1000 to one...if they are, it's not their gig, it's somebody else's

149 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:23:15pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

I find it insane that someone who makes a big deal out of her Jewish heritage is so quick to excuse genocide (Srebrenica) and violent rhetoric against others just for different beliefs.

150 Mr Pancakes  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:23:43pm

re: #136 WindUpBird

That's the only mixed drink I've ever really had in the morning, totally true

You're missing out then..... I've had "Sex On the Beach" at 3:00AM in Mexico.

151 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:23:53pm

re: #145 Killgore Trout

I can't link it, you'll have to go over to see for yourself.

Could you like to where I have to go?

Just kidding.

152 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:24:00pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

Image: island+youths+1.jpg

Pam Captions this picture...

A total of 2 non-whites.

All it takes is one. They have some pretty famous clichés about that..

But then, they say that about us at work, too. We have a joke, oooh more than 2 Black people at the watercooler? Careful, they'll accuse us of holding an NAACP convention. e_e

153 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:24:09pm

re: #150 Mr Pancakes

You're missing out then... I've had "Sex On the Beach" at 3:00AM in Mexico.

That'd work *_*

154 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:24:12pm

re: #130 Killgore Trout

Another comment...

Again: If you can't tell the difference between leading an army to battle a large scale raiding force and shooting up a camp full of unarmed civilians, then you have truly drunk the Kool-Aid.

155 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:25:15pm

re: #149 Lidane

I find it insane that someone who makes a big deal out of her Jewish heritage is so quick to excuse genocide (Srebrenica) and violent rhetoric against others just for different beliefs.

Pam's not healthy...pretty simple

156 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:25:44pm

re: #153 WindUpBird

That'd work *_*

And just hope the sand isn't aluminum oxide.

157 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:26:03pm

re: #143 b_sharp

Another 404.

Beause that's blogspot.

158 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:26:07pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

Just leave off the 'but' for one post Pam, just one. A one sentence post will do.

She won't of course, since in her mind the people who died were asking for it somewhat by "support Hamas". That's not true. What is true is that those who call for a boycott of Israel are very wrong, but it does not make them evil.


PIMF That was a serious error there.

159 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:26:24pm

What is the standing of Geller and AS in the Israeli media? If it's anything other than STFU, they're missing an opportunity.

160 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:26:50pm

re: #157 Sergey Romanov

Beause that's blogspot.

Isn't there a salve for that?

161 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:26:54pm

I'll have a double Bloody Pam please....no bean

162 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:27:13pm

re: #139 Decatur Deb

She can spot one in a picture a thousand miles away.

She's a fucking murder sponsoring racist.

163 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:27:22pm

re: #146 b_sharp

If you support the deaths of children because they support Hamas, then you've become Hamas.

These are the same people screaming, but they kill their own children!!!

How is that any different from Anders slaughtering 80 Norwegian kids, which he did because he's a baby-killing liberal? /

164 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:27:30pm

re: #161 albusteve

I'll have a double Bloody Pam please...no bean

please come up with a recipe for that :D

165 Stanghazi  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:27:45pm

re: #145 Killgore Trout

I can't link it, you'll have to go over to see for yourself.

No to the no. Thank you.

166 Mr Pancakes  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:28:32pm

re: #164 WindUpBird

please come up with a recipe for that :D

It would probably contain a celery stalker.

167 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:28:35pm

re: #164 WindUpBird

please come up with a recipe for that :D

Please not.

168 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:28:47pm

re: #164 WindUpBird

please come up with a recipe for that :D

3 oz cheap vodka
dash of Clamato
celery

169 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:29:47pm

re: #155 albusteve

Pam's not healthy...pretty simple

She's a dumb bigot. A lot of those are perfectly healthy eliminationists, who will support mass murder, even unprompted.

170 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:30:16pm

re: #168 albusteve

3 oz cheap vodka
dash of Clamato
celery

With a drop of liquid hate.

171 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:30:55pm

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

-Senator Barack Obama, 2006

172 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:32:35pm

re: #169 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

She's a dumb bigot. A lot of those are perfectly healthy eliminationists, who will support mass murder, even unprompted.

Depends on how mental health is defined.

Irrational hate seems pretty sick to me. Some people need to be forcibly housed to protect them from themselves.

173 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:32:58pm

re: #169 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

She's a dumb bigot. A lot of those are perfectly healthy eliminationists, who will support mass murder, even unprompted.

I know...lets have a debate about what 'healthy' means!

174 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:33:00pm

re: #161 albusteve

I'll have a double Bloody Pam please...no bean

I don't have a recipe, but I have the stats:

Aspect of the Shrieking Harpy
Level 24 Bloodthirsty Birdbrained Bitch

With the upper body of an insane woman, and the lower body of a city pigeon (albeit 2.5 times large than any human), the Harpy is a Giant-sized enemy (-1 to all to-hit numbers).

Armor: Utterly obtuse, totally immune to all logic-based attacks, fact-based attacks only do 50% of normal damage. Only brute force attacks due normal damage.

Hit Points: 400, Bloodied: 200

Attacks:

Talons: 4D6 damage

Shrieks of Hate and Rage: Automatically used in any round that the Harpy does not spew Burning Stupid (see below). Each such round, players must make a saving roll at -2 difficulty. Failure stuns the player till the next round, when it can be ended with a normal save. Also, the shrieks prevent all verbal communication (The DM should not allow the players to talk to each other in such rounds) and impose a +2 difficulty to chanting spells.

Head-Butt (Harpy must start at 5 height or higher to use, cannot make other attacks this round): The Harpy dives and plants its ugly face into a player. 5D10 damage.

Grab and Drop (twice only): To use this, the Harpy uses its Talons with a +1 difficulty. If successful, the harpy carries the character up 80 feet to the top of the chamber and drops him or her. Unless magic can be used to break the fall, player takes 8D10 falling damage.

Magic:

Spew of Burning Stupid (Ranged Attack, 7 hex range, two hex width, usable every 3 rounds): The Harpy spews a stream of foul, fiery stupidity. Using this attack means that the Harpy cannot use its Shrieks this round. Any player characters hit by the stream takes 1D20 damage and must make a saving roll:
First failed save: Take an additional 1D10 damage.
Second failed save: Character is set on fire. Next round, character automatically take 2D10 damage and may take no actions other than to run around screaming "THE STUPID!! IT BURNS!!!11". A successful save ends this.

Glare of Utter Hate (Recharge on DM 2D6 roll of 9 or better): 3D6 Nercrotic Damage and the target knocked unconscious (reduced to Stunned by a successful save, a successful save next turn removes the effect).

Summon Hater Trolls: 1D6 Hater Trolls appear and attack.

Tactics: The Aspect of the Shrieking Harpy will focus its attacks first on any Muslim character, to the exclusion of all others. If there are none, or if they are killed, the Harpy will target the weakest remaining character. The Harpy likes to use its Talons, saving the grab and drops for especially dangerous enemies. Once the Harpy is Bloodied (reduced to 200 hit points), it uses Burning Stupid more and tries to Head Butt). At any time, it may Summon Hater Trolls.

Special: If any player possesses the Ring of the Lizard King, a giant green hand appears as the Harpy first takes flight. A booming but pleasant voices calls out "Lunatic Pamus Reductus!", then the hand slams the Harpy to the ground for 100 points of damage. The Ring may take no further action in this battle.

Once the Harpy falls to zero hits points, its lets loose one last Shriek, so loud the players are automatically stunned (no save possible), then crumbles to dust. As the players stand stunned, the floor opens away from the and a huge dais is lifted into view.

To be continued next time. The players must disable the Astral Engine, as PALINDROME's God Golem comes to life.

This last bit refers to a next level I'll debut in August.

175 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:33:54pm

re: #171 TampaKnight

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

-Senator Barack Obama, 2006

Nice find. I'm favoriting that one.

176 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:34:28pm

re: #173 albusteve

I know...lets have a debate about what 'healthy' means!

Or, we can all have our own opinions on what was said. I like that much better!

177 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:35:22pm

Or, how about Harry Reid? Voted against increasing the debt limit in 2006, and when asked in 2011 about that vote, had this to say:

“I don’t really know what vote you’re talking about, I’ve cast about 15,000 votes,” he said. “I’m saying today that we have to raise the debt ceiling. There’s no alternative.”

Sure, Harry.

178 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:35:38pm

I read through her racist screed ("Note the faces which are more MIddle Eastern or mixed than pure Norwegian"). She calls the camp antisemitic yet doesn't cite a single instance of antisemitism, i.e. she outright lies about that.

Here's a copy: [Link: www.webcitation.org...]

But she does cite "Blazing Cat Fur", who is a rabid Kahanist and supporter of JDL. For those not up on their terror orgs, JDL was described by FBI as "a right-wing terrorist group".

179 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:35:39pm

re: #172 b_sharp

Depends on how mental health is defined.

Irrational hate seems pretty sick to me. Some people need to be forcibly housed to protect them from themselves.

Danger to self, and others. Yep, I agree.

180 blueraven  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:35:50pm

re: #171 TampaKnight

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

-Senator Barack Obama, 2006

All politicians posture when their party is not in control of the presidency, knowing damn well the debt will be raised. But I am sure you know that. Also the President already admitted to that. So get over it.

181 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:36:48pm

re: #171 TampaKnight

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

-Senator Barack Obama, 2006

He's a politician--that's one of the pooches he's screwed. I might be looking for a better liberal Prez, if all the alternatives out there weren't a flock of honking loons.

182 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:37:23pm

re: #180 blueraven

All politicians posture when their party is not in control of the presidency, knowing damn well the debt will be raised. But I am sure you know that. Also the President already admitted to that. So get over it.

Right after you admit that Republicans aren't evil for doing the same thing.

183 Mr Pancakes  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:37:31pm

re: #180 blueraven

All politicians posture when their party is not in control of the presidency, knowing damn well the debt will be raised. But I am sure you know that. Also the President already admitted to that. So get over it.

I hate political posturing.....

184 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:38:17pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

Right after you admit that Republicans aren't evil for doing the same thing.

They're not evil. They're just fucking stupid for getting us so close to a default.

185 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:38:31pm

re: #180 blueraven

All politicians posture when their party is not in control of the presidency, knowing damn well the debt will be raised. But I am sure you know that. Also the President already admitted to that. So get over it.

What an utterly weak excuse. It's basically the President of the USA stating that since his vote didn't matter, it shouldn't be accounted for. What if the votes had fallen out that year and his "no" vote suddenly mattered?

My point I was making is these partisan "flip flop" comparisons are immature, and especially ill-fated when Republicans are being called out for something the Democrats, including our current President, VP, and Senate Majority Leader did in 2006.

186 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:39:11pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

Right after you admit that Republicans aren't evil for doing the same thing.

Right after you admit that the 2004 debate wasn't threatening the safe operation of the country.

187 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:39:17pm

re: #171 TampaKnight

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

-Senator Barack Obama, 2006

You conveniently fail to mention that neither Obama nor any Democratic Senator was so irresponsible as to filibuster the majority on such a necessary bill. He was wrong for sure, but he wasn't anywhere near as reckless as the current Republicans are acting.

188 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:39:24pm

re: #178 Sergey Romanov

I read through her racist screed ("Note the faces which are more MIddle Eastern or mixed than pure Norwegian"). She calls the camp antisemitic yet doesn't cite a single instance of antisemitism, i.e. she outright lies about that.

Here's a copy: [Link: www.webcitation.org...]

But she does cite "Blazing Cat Fur", who is a rabid Kahanist and supporter of JDL. For those not up on their terror orgs, JDL was described by FBI as "a right-wing terrorist group".

Homegrown US exports, like Lind/Weyrich crap all over that manifesto.

189 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:39:33pm

re: #185 TampaKnight

Very well said.

190 laZardo  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:39:43pm

re: #181 Decatur Deb

He's a politician--that's one of the pooches he's screwed. I might be looking for a better liberal Prez, if all the alternatives out there weren't a flock of honking loons.

Ron Paul!

[moonbat]Cynthia McKinney![/moonbat]

/still no idea what to use for the latter

191 blueraven  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:39:49pm

re: #177 TampaKnight

Or, how about Harry Reid? Voted against increasing the debt limit in 2006, and when asked in 2011 about that vote, had this to say:

“I don’t really know what vote you’re talking about, I’ve cast about 15,000 votes,” he said. “I’m saying today that we have to raise the debt ceiling. There’s no alternative.”

Sure, Harry.

The democrats have never brought it to a crisis level, and held the economy hostage to silly demands. You MBF is bogus.

192 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:40:04pm

re: #187 goddamnedfrank

You conveniently fail to mention that neither Obama nor any Democratic Senator was so irresponsible as to filibuster the majority on such a necessary bill. He was wrong for sure, but he wasn't anywhere near as reckless as the current Republicans are acting.

Yeah, but those are Republicans. They don't have to have any kind of responsibility for anything. Don't you know that by now?

///

193 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:40:27pm

re: #183 Mr Pancakes

I hate political posturing...

what's left when you have no unwavering principle?...we have come to expect mediocrity from our pols, and they deliver

194 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:40:27pm

re: #190 laZardo

[moonbat]Cynthia McKinney![/moonbat]

/still no idea what to use for the latter

What to call Cynthia McKlanny? Dumb bigot works for me.

195 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:41:24pm

re: #191 blueraven

The democrats have never brought it to a crisis level, and held the economy hostage to silly demands. You MBF is bogus.

The head of the Progressive Caucus, which carries the biggest Democrat total of people in the House at 75, today said they will vote against the compromise bill that is being worked right now.

Who's hostage taking?

196 Peter_P3  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:41:52pm

Its not really a comparable situation.

I don´t remember Moody´s back then as being anywhere near lowering Americas credit rating, or the debt ceiling being anyway near as high as now.

And I dont think bringing the race issue into the current discussions is of any help either.

7 years IS a helluva long time for an economy.

197 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:41:54pm

re: #195 TampaKnight

The head of the Progressive Caucus, which carries the biggest Democrat total of people in the House at 75, today said they will vote against the compromise bill that is being worked right now.

Who's hostage taking?

hahaha really?

with a straight face, you're serving us this? lol

198 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:42:16pm

re: #195 TampaKnight

Who's hostage taking?

The Republicans, since it's been their asshole behavior and their idiocy that has gotten us to this point.

199 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:42:31pm

re: #183 Mr Pancakes

I hate political posturing...

Voguing for dollars.

200 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:42:34pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

Right after you admit that Republicans aren't evil for doing the same thing.

Stop equivocating, the Republicans aren't doing the same thing, they're filibustering the majority and presenting a clear and present danger to the economy.

201 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:43:39pm

re: #181 Decatur Deb

He's a politician--that's one of the pooches he's screwed. I might be looking for a better liberal Prez, if all the alternatives out there weren't a flock of honking loons.

I just couldn't see it, even with a candidate who is a normal person.

202 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:43:41pm

re: #200 goddamnedfrank

Stop equivocating, the Republicans aren't doing the same thing, they're filibustering the majority and presenting a clear and present danger to the economy.

where's Jack Ryan when you need him?

203 blueraven  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:43:51pm

re: #185 TampaKnight

What an utterly weak excuse. It's basically the President of the USA stating that since his vote didn't matter, it shouldn't be accounted for. What if the votes had fallen out that year and his "no" vote suddenly mattered?

My point I was making is these partisan "flip flop" comparisons are immature, and especially ill-fated when Republicans are being called out for something the Democrats, including our current President, VP, and Senate Majority Leader did in 2006.

LOL...are you so naive that you think they dont know exactly who is voting yes or no? And I I stated above, they weren't asking for something impossible to do in a short time like a BBA.

MBF Fail!

204 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:43:55pm

re: #200 goddamnedfrank

Stop equivocating, the Republicans aren't doing the same thing, they're filibustering the majority and presenting a clear and present danger to the economy.

EXACTLY.

These aren't comparable at all. There is no Magical Balance Fairy to be found here.

The fact of the matter is, the Republican Party in 2011 has gotten us the closest we've ever been to default ,and they've done it for nakedly partisan reasons in order to appease the teabagger wingnuts and to try and win an election in 2012.

205 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:44:22pm

re: #197 WindUpBird

hahaha really?

with a straight face, you're serving us this? lol

So if the bill fails in the House with all 75 Progressive members voting against it, will you blindly blame only Republicans?

My guess is yes.

206 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:45:49pm

re: #197 WindUpBird

hahaha really?

with a straight face, you're serving us this? lol

This all the liberal nazi muslim babykilling president's fault! He is selling the USA out to shariah law as reparations!

207 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:45:50pm

re: #205 TampaKnight

They got us to this point, so yes.

If the POTUS was a Republican, the same Republican pols in office now would have pushed through a clean bill to raise the debt limit, no questions asked. They've made it an issue now just to be partisan assholes.

208 jaunte  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:45:50pm

re: #178 Sergey Romanov

I read through her racist screed ("Note the faces which are more MIddle Eastern or mixed than pure Norwegian"). She calls the camp antisemitic yet doesn't cite a single instance of antisemitism, i.e. she outright lies about that.


Sharidyn Meegan Ngahiwi Svebakk-Boehn, from New Zealand, aged 14.
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

209 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:46:07pm

re: #205 TampaKnight

So if the bill fails in the House with all 75 Progressive members voting against it, will you blindly blame only Republicans?

My guess is yes.

Friends, he's still on his feet! The cheerleader has NOT left the building!

210 blueraven  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:46:52pm

re: #195 TampaKnight

The head of the Progressive Caucus, which carries the biggest Democrat total of people in the House at 75, today said they will vote against the compromise bill that is being worked right now.

Who's hostage taking?

So? Why should the dems have to pass this by themselves? There are going to be defections on both sides. How may Rs do you suppose will vote for it?

211 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:47:11pm

re: #201 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I just couldn't see it, even with a candidate who is a normal person.

I'd be happier with someone like the imaginary socialist Muslin the RW makes him out to be.

212 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:47:35pm

re: #205 TampaKnight

So if the bill fails in the House with all 75 Progressive members voting against it, will you blindly blame only Republicans?

My guess is yes.

it's cool though, dude, we need a couple GOP shills around here to pretend to be very very serious

213 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:47:38pm

re: #209 WindUpBird

Friends, he's still on his feet! The cheerleader has NOT left the building!

yeah, honest debate cuts into the snark vibe...who does he think he is?

214 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:48:50pm

re: #177 TampaKnight

Or, how about Harry Reid? Voted against increasing the debt limit in 2006, and when asked in 2011 about that vote, had this to say:

“I don’t really know what vote you’re talking about, I’ve cast about 15,000 votes,” he said. “I’m saying today that we have to raise the debt ceiling. There’s no alternative.”

Sure, Harry.

But they weren't blackmailing the government to get it passed. They knew it was going to pass.

I have no idea why you're overlooking this very obvious point.

215 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:49:07pm

re: #213 albusteve

yeah, honest debate cuts into the snark vibe...who does he think he is?

he's already fairied himself well outside of the gamut of honesty

It's long range snark at this point, I can only see his arguments on radar

216 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:49:14pm

re: #207 Lidane

They got us to this point, so yes.

If the POTUS was a Republican, the same Republican pols in office now would have pushed through a clean bill to raise the debt limit, no questions asked. They've made it an issue now just to be partisan assholes.

They got us to this point? The Democrats have not passed a budget in 823 days. Re-read that number for emphasis. The 2012 budget request that Pres Obama submitted in February didn't address any of this, in fact, it actually added more debt to our bottom line. It was so atrocious, that it didn't even get 1 vote in the Senate.

Why wasn't anything done about our debt, if they cared about it, when the Democrats controlled the Presidency, the Senate (fillibuster proof), and the House? Why wasn't a budget passed? Hell, why wasn't a budget even proposed in the Senate?

We're here today because there has been a complete negligence on the behalf of our government during the past 2.5 years to do the very basic functions of their jobs that they're elected to do.

217 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:49:21pm

BARTENDER!....
give me a Double Oneliner....no ice

218 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:49:24pm

re: #214 Obdicut

But they weren't blackmailing the government to get it passed. They knew it was going to pass.

I have no idea why you're overlooking this very obvious point.

see, you're way better at this than I am

219 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:49:33pm

re: #208 jaunte

Sharidyn Meegan Ngahiwi Svebakk-Boehn, from New Zealand, aged 14.
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Whoever compared these beasts to Death Eaters was right. She almost writes "mudbloods" there.

220 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:49:45pm

re: #177 TampaKnight

Did Obama or Reid filibuster the bill?

221 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:49:47pm

re: #209 WindUpBird

Friends, he's still on his feet! The cheerleader has NOT left the building!

I'm guessing you wont' answer the question, judging by your re-direct.

222 blueraven  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:50:32pm

re: #205 TampaKnight

So if the bill fails in the House with all 75 Progressive members voting against it, will you blindly blame only Republicans?

My guess is yes.

Lets see who does their job and gets the votes needed on each side. Nancy or John? My money is on Nancy.

223 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:50:37pm

re: #209 WindUpBird

Friends, he's still on his feet! The cheerleader has NOT left the building!

Don't tell me you revived him by poking him with a stick.

Never poke a dead bad guy with a stick.

224 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:50:53pm

re: #221 TampaKnight

I'm guessing you wont' answer the question, judging by your re-direct.

Can you answer the question of why you're comparing a time where it was known that the bill was going to pass, a clean debt ceiling hike, with the current position where the GOP is attempting to link the debt ceiling hike with an astounding number of cuts and zero revenue raisers?

225 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:51:14pm

re: #221 TampaKnight

I'm guessing you wont' answer the question, judging by your re-direct.

Ob in #214 has actually answered it quite well, so i'll just repost it for ya:

But they weren't blackmailing the government to get it passed. They knew it was going to pass.

I have no idea why you're overlooking this very obvious point.

226 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:51:28pm

re: #178 Sergey Romanov

I read through her racist screed ("Note the faces which are more MIddle Eastern or mixed than pure Norwegian").

Purity laws can take care of that problem. ///

227 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:51:29pm

re: #223 b_sharp

Don't tell me you revived him by poking him with a stick.

Never poke a dead bad guy with a stick.

it's the internet! it's FENCING with sticks!

228 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:51:40pm

re: #223 b_sharp

Don't tell me you revived him by poking him with a stick.

Never poke a dead bad guy with a stick.

LOL

I'm a bad guy for posing counter opinions here now, huh?

I didn't realize this place is now the Huffington Post.

229 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:51:51pm

re: #216 TampaKnight

We're here today because there has been a complete negligence on the behalf of our government during the past 2.5 years to do the very basic functions of their jobs that they're elected to do.

And I guess this is the part where you tell me that the Republicans had nothing to do with anything at all, right?

The Party of Personal Responsibility. LMAO.

230 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:52:14pm

re: #216 TampaKnight

They got us to this point? The Democrats have not passed a budget in 823 days. Re-read that number for emphasis. The 2012 budget request that Pres Obama submitted in February didn't address any of this, in fact, it actually added more debt to our bottom line. It was so atrocious, that it didn't even get 1 vote in the Senate.

Why wasn't anything done about our debt, if they cared about it, when the Democrats controlled the Presidency, the Senate (fillibuster proof), and the House? Why wasn't a budget passed? Hell, why wasn't a budget even proposed in the Senate?

We're here today because there has been a complete negligence on the behalf of our government during the past 2.5 years to do the very basic functions of their jobs that they're elected to do.

dude...you cannot win even one point here...but I give you credit for trying...those are reasonable questions

231 blueraven  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:52:41pm

re: #216 TampaKnight

And Ryans budget added 6 Trillion

232 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:52:42pm

re: #225 WindUpBird

Ob in #214 has actually answered it quite well, so i'll just repost it for ya:

This has what to do with the current vote about to happen in which 75 Progressive members are voting against it?

233 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:53:28pm

re: #195 TampaKnight

The head of the Progressive Caucus, which carries the biggest Democrat total of people in the House at 75, today said they will vote against the compromise bill that is being worked right now.

Who's hostage taking?

Well, if it gets Tea Party Caucus votes, then the Progressive Caucus will vote against it on general principals. The reverse is also true.

234 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:53:30pm

re: #219 Sergey Romanov

Whoever compared these beasts to Death Eaters was right. She almost writes "mudbloods" there.

Give it time. That's exactly where they are headed.

235 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:53:38pm

re: #230 albusteve

dude...you cannot win even one point here...but I give you credit for trying...those are reasonable questions

I remember when this place used to have a nice mix of right and left leaning thinkers, but apparently there is no room for any discourse that isn't fully aligned to the left.

236 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:53:48pm

re: #231 blueraven

And Ryans budget added 6 Trillion

that's no budget...that's my wife!

237 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:54:02pm

re: #228 TampaKnight

LOL

I'm a bad guy for posing counter opinions here now, huh?

I didn't realize this place is now the Huffington Post.

Don't whimper--the President pulled a standard dumb ploy while a senator, and you got to hit him with it. You're smart enough to know the difference.

238 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:54:14pm

re: #232 TampaKnight

Do you think the progressives would vote no to a clean debt ceiling increase?

239 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:54:16pm

re: #232 TampaKnight

This has what to do with the current vote about to happen in which 75 Progressive members are voting against it?

75 progressive members in the House vs. how many Republicans?

The Magical Balance Fairy isn't on your side here.

240 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:54:32pm

re: #230 albusteve

dude...you cannot win even one point here...but I give you credit for trying...those are reasonable questions

They're reasonable questions on the surface, but with a foundation that is nothing but faulty premises and misdirections

which is why I have contempt for these questions and elect instead to toss zings, and why Ob is skewering them six ways till Sunday, because they don't make sense

241 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:54:49pm

re: #235 TampaKnight

I remember when this place used to have a nice mix of right and left leaning thinkers, but apparently there is no room for any discourse that isn't fully aligned to the left.

I'm trying to engage you in an actual discussion, but you don't appear willing to.

You seem to instead want to play the victim card.

Have fun with that.

242 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:55:00pm

re: #235 TampaKnight

I remember when this place used to have a nice mix of right and left leaning thinkers, but apparently there is no room for any discourse that isn't fully aligned to the left.

Lol baloney.

243 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:55:12pm

re: #240 WindUpBird

They're reasonable questions on the surface, but with a foundation that is nothing but faulty premises and misdirections

which is why I have contempt for these questions and elect instead to toss zings, and why Ob is skewering them six ways till Sunday, because they don't make sense

Asking why a budget wasn't passed for 823 days is a re-direct?

Right.

244 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:55:18pm

re: #232 TampaKnight

This has what to do with the current vote about to happen in which 75 Progressive members are voting against it?

Do you think the progressives would vote no to a clean debt ceiling increase?


:)

245 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:55:43pm

re: #228 TampaKnight

LOL

I'm a bad guy for posing counter opinions here now, huh?

I didn't realize this place is now the Huffington Post.

We all become the bad guy at one time or another, I'm sure you can handle the role and the ribbing.

246 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:55:46pm

re: #243 TampaKnight

Asking why a budget wasn't passed for 823 days is a re-direct?

Right.

Do you think the progressives would vote no to a clean debt ceiling increase?

:)

:)

247 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:55:53pm

re: #241 Obdicut

I'm trying to engage you in an actual discussion, but you don't appear willing to.

You seem to instead want to play the victim card.

Have fun with that.

It's more of that conservative self-victimization that Jon Stewart pointed out. It's a habit, I guess.

248 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:57:02pm

re: #235 TampaKnight

I remember when this place used to have a nice mix of right and left leaning thinkers, but apparently there is no room for any discourse that isn't fully aligned to the left.

When did you right-wingers become such WATBs? Seriously, you play the victim card like no other group of people I can think of.

249 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:57:09pm

re: #247 Lidane

It's more of that conservative self-victimization that Jon Stewart pointed out. It's a habit, I guess.

Someone called me a "bad guy" for posing a counter opinion.

I personally dont' give a shit, but it's sad to see how it's so easily accepted around here. I was merely trying to point out what a weak, immature stance it is.

250 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:57:43pm

re: #248 moderatelyradicalliberal

When did you right-wingers become such WATBs? Seriously, you play the victim card like no other group of people I can think of.

Did Jon Stewart tell you to say that?

251 jaunte  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:58:08pm

re: #235 TampaKnight

I remember when this place used to have a nice mix of right and left leaning thinkers, but apparently there is no room for any discourse that isn't fully aligned to the left.

Harry Reid could have pushed for raising the debt ceiling earlier, but he wanted the Republicans to participate in voting to pay the bills, too. He failed to take into account how extreme they might become.

252 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:58:10pm

re: #249 TampaKnight

Someone called me a "bad guy" for posing a counter opinion.

I personally dont' give a shit, but it's sad to see how it's so easily accepted around here. I was merely trying to point out what a weak, immature stance it is.

You're still avoiding Obdicut

253 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:58:19pm

re: #240 WindUpBird

They're reasonable questions on the surface, but with a foundation that is nothing but faulty premises and misdirections

which is why I have contempt for these questions and elect instead to toss zings, and why Ob is skewering them six ways till Sunday, because they don't make sense

there is so much trash posted here, I really don't care anymore...it's just another comment

254 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:58:54pm

re: #235 TampaKnight

I remember when this place used to have a nice mix of right and left leaning thinkers, but apparently there is no room for any discourse that isn't fully aligned to the left.

Arguing against your point is restricting you from expressing it? I don't think so.

255 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:59:06pm

re: #252 WindUpBird

You're still avoiding Obdicut

Oh, and what is that I'm avoiding?

You appear to be the king of the 2-Step.

256 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:59:09pm

re: #253 albusteve

there is so much trash posted here, I really don't care anymore...it's just another comment

I'm just explaining why i'm not taking the guy seriously

257 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:59:23pm

re: #247 Lidane

It's more of that conservative self-victimization that Jon Stewart pointed out. It's a habit, I guess.

But liberal babykilling nazi muslim shariah president is not allowing us to rule! You just don't understand what it's like!

258 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:59:28pm

re: #255 TampaKnight

Oh, and what is that I'm avoiding?

You appear to be the king of the 2-Step.

Still avoiding Obdicut

259 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:00:45pm

re: #253 albusteve

there is so much trash posted here, I really don't care anymore...it's just another comment

Hold fast--Only you and DF are keeping us from the Libpocalypse.

260 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:01:08pm

re: #250 TampaKnight

Did Jon Stewart tell you to say that?

Proto-tea party cons started playing that old tatterd "poor us!!" card some time at the end of the Bush 1 presidency, and have not stopped to even take a breath. They've only become more shrill and more annoying.

261 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:02:17pm

re: #260 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Proto-tea party cons started playing that old tatterd "poor us!!" card some time at the end of the Bush 1 presidency, and have not stopped to even take a breath. They've only become more shrill and more annoying.

And I'm sure they have an exclusive license on victimhood.

It doesn't exist on the left....anywhere!

262 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:02:25pm

re: #249 TampaKnight

Someone called me a "bad guy" for posing a counter opinion.

I personally dont' give a shit, but it's sad to see how it's so easily accepted around here. I was merely trying to point out what a weak, immature stance it is.

Then why not try to have an actual discussion?

Obama's speech on the debt ceiling came after the Bush tax cuts had enormously added to the deficit. That is the main thing that he was pointing out as a failure of leadership-- the direct things that led to that debt ceiling raise. Without the Bush tax cuts, our deficit would be so much smaller than it is today.

Furthermore, Obama did not filibuster the debt ceiling raise.

Furthermore, he did not attempt to get anything attached to the debt ceiling in order to have it voted forwards. There was none of the current blackmail. There as the symbolic 'no' vote on a bill that was going to pass.

Can you explain why you find it comparable?

263 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:03:24pm

re: #255 TampaKnight

Oh, and what is that I'm avoiding?

You appear to be the king of the 2-Step.

No, WUB is the king of tactless insults.

264 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:03:42pm

re: #259 Decatur Deb

Hold fast--Only you and DF are keeping us from the Libpocalypse.

I don't like sides...I try and stay in the middle, just my nature as a peaceful guy

265 blueraven  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:05:28pm

re: #261 TampaKnight

And I'm sure they have an exclusive license on victimhood.

It doesn't exist on the left...anywhere!

Filibusters: Notice how they more than double in 2007?

2011-2012 22
2009-2010 136
2007-2008 139
2005-2006 68
2003-2004 62
2001-2002 71
1999-2000 71

266 Mr Pancakes  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:05:45pm

re: #264 albusteve

I don't like sides...I try and stay in the middle, just my nature as a peaceful guy

Good answer, token conservative.

/

267 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:06:26pm

re: #262 Obdicut

Then why not try to have an actual discussion?

Obama's speech on the debt ceiling came after the Bush tax cuts had enormously added to the deficit. That is the main thing that he was pointing out as a failure of leadership-- the direct things that led to that debt ceiling raise. Without the Bush tax cuts, our deficit would be so much smaller than it is today.

Furthermore, Obama did not filibuster the debt ceiling raise.

Furthermore, he did not attempt to get anything attached to the debt ceiling in order to have it voted forwards. There was none of the current blackmail. There as the symbolic 'no' vote on a bill that was going to pass.

Can you explain why you find it comparable?

Yes, I understand that he, and you, view it as a symbolic vote. And I would debate you on that deficit contribution factor of the tax cuts, but for another day.

My point, which I've put bluntly, is that that entire argument is absolutely weak. Even if you think you're taking a purely symbolic position, you better understand that your words and your vote still carry importance, and as Obama sees today, consequences in the future.

He also completely skipped the debt ceiling votes in 2007 and 2008.

268 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:09:04pm

re: #261 TampaKnight

And I'm sure they have an exclusive license on victimhood.

It doesn't exist on the left...anywhere!

Because they are out of ideas, poor-me conservatives are just parroting old "politically correct" language and attitudes they have been decrying for decades.

Thankfully, poor-me conservatives aren't the only conservatives in the world, they just happen to be the loudest and most obnoxious right now.

269 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:10:12pm

re: #249 TampaKnight

Someone called me a "bad guy" for posing a counter opinion.

I personally dont' give a shit, but it's sad to see how it's so easily accepted around here. I was merely trying to point out what a weak, immature stance it is.

I apologize for implying you are a bad guy, it was a stupid and completely tasteless joke riffing on another poster's comment.

270 sagehen  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:10:13pm

re: #42 kirkspencer

That gives us a further 1% increase in unemployment (okun's observation). It also moves us negative given the previous six month's growth has been less than 1.5% (annualized).

And that is just the direct impact. There are a number of states hanging on the edge; a Fed Expenditure cut will hit them as well. Depending on specifics, the states' cuts would hit GDP for another 1 to 2%.

I'm not sure default would be worse at this point.


It's not a bug, it's a feature.

They want the economy to tank. The TPGOP would gladly burn this nation to ground if they were guaranteed sole possession of the ashes.

271 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:10:47pm

re: #267 TampaKnight

Yes, I understand that he, and you, view it as a symbolic vote. And I would debate you on that deficit contribution factor of the tax cuts, but for another day.

Why is it for another day?


My point, which I've put bluntly, is that that entire argument is absolutely weak. Even if you think you're taking a purely symbolic position, you better understand that your words and your vote still carry importance, and as Obama sees today, consequences in the future.

I'm sorry, but saying that the reason that the GOP is voting against a debt ceiling raise now, filibustering it, and attatching poison pills is because obama voted against a debt ceiling raise is to ignore the reasons the GOP themselves are giving, which are completely in line both with the ideologies they're spouting and their stated objective, to deny Obama a second term at all costs.

He also completely skipped the debt ceiling votes in 2007 and 2008.

So why doesn't the GOP do the same? Why, instead, are they willing to risk default-- something Obama did not do-- filibuster the bill, and even attempt to get the poison pill of a balanced budget amendment attached?

Your current explanation, that Obama voted against a debt ceiling hike once, does really not explain it. My explanation-- that the GOP is enacting its glibertarian economic plan and attempting to deny Obama a second term-- does.

272 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:11:07pm

re: #216 TampaKnight

They got us to this point? The Democrats have not passed a budget in 823 days. Re-read that number for emphasis.

The 2010 budget was passed 739 days ago, July 22, 2009. The 2011 budget was enacted April 15 of this year, which was late so maybe you're not counting it. Neither budget was passed 823 days ago. You seem to be mindlessly parroting some species of bullshit.

273 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:11:37pm

re: #268 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Because they are out of ideas, poor-me conservatives are just parroting old "politically correct" language and attitudes they have been decrying for decades.

Thankfully, poor-me conservatives aren't the only conservatives in the world, they just happen to be the loudest and most obnoxious right now.

Out of ideas? The House passed a budget in the first 50 days of being in session, while the number for the Democrats is 823 days and counting.

274 blueraven  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:11:42pm

re: #267 TampaKnight

There were no consequence for the country over Obama's vote. The only consequence is that he has egg on his face.

You dont seem to understand.

275 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:13:36pm

re: #272 goddamnedfrank

The 2010 budget was passed 739 days ago, July 22, 2009. The 2011 budget was enacted April 15 of this year, which was late so maybe you're not counting it. Neither budget was passed 823 days ago. You seem to be mindlessly parroting some species of bullshit.

The 2011 budget was NOT a full budget as required by law. It was entirely a stop-gap budget that passed out appropriations for the remainder of the year, which had been operating under a Continuing Resolution up until then.

It made no 2 or 3 year appropriations, which are required under law in full budgets that come out of Committee, pass full House and Senate vote, and are signed by the President.

And it only happened after the House turned over.

276 sagehen  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:13:40pm

re: #60 ralphieboy

The Tea Party candidates got elected on a clear platform of lowering taxes, cutting spending and not going along with politics as usual. Whatever else you can say about these folks, they are being mind-numbingly consistent in this respect.

That's not what they campaigned on.

"Where are the jobs? Where are the jobs? Where are the jobs? Let's get America working again!!"

277 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:15:56pm

re: #273 TampaKnight

Out of ideas? The House passed a budget in the first 50 days of being in session, while the number for the Democrats is 823 days and counting.

Who controlled the House during those first 50 days? Democrats. This is getting sad.re: #275 TampaKnight

The 2011 budget was NOT a full budget as required by law. It was entirely a stop-gap budget that passed out appropriations for the remainder of the year, which had been operating under a Continuing Resolution up until then.

It made no 2 or 3 year appropriations, which are required under law in full budgets that come out of Committee, pass full House and Senate vote, and are signed by the President.

And it only happened after the House turned over.

Ah I see, a full budget. You have the filibustering Republicans to thank for that. You're talking point is absolute rubbish.

278 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:16:16pm

re: #275 TampaKnight

Yes. The Democrat's failure to pass a budget, and to raise taxes, was a huge failure on their part, on every level.

What does that have to do with the incredibly fiscal irresponsibility and insanely unworkable approach to government the GOP is now displaying?

279 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:17:31pm

re: #277 goddamnedfrank

The Democrats really should have fought this fight then. They probably didn't realize how insane the GOP was preparing to be, but I don't know why not. The GOP has been divorced from actual fiscal responsibility for decades now, and with the Tea Party accelerating, they should have seen the debt ceiling raise as a natural point where the wingnuts in the GOP would blackmail them.

280 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:18:53pm

re: #278 Obdicut

Yes. The Democrat's failure to pass a budget, and to raise taxes, was a huge failure on their part, on every level.

What does that have to do with the incredibly fiscal irresponsibility and insanely unworkable approach to government the GOP is now displaying?

You don't see why and how passing an actual budget could have prevented us from even being to this point?

Hell, they could have tied a debt limit increase vote to the 2011 budget and prevented this entire debacle.

281 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:19:57pm

re: #280 TampaKnight

You don't see why and how passing an actual budget could have prevented us from even being to this point?

No, I see that it could have. It didn't happen. A large part of why it didn't happen was the filibustering and obstructionism of the GOP at that time. Can you acknowledge that?


Hell, they could have tied a debt limit increase vote to the 2011 budget and prevented this entire debacle.

Why do you think that the GOP wouldn't have done what they're doing now?

282 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:21:33pm

re: #281 Obdicut

No, I see that it could have. It didn't happen. A large part of why it didn't happen was the filibustering and obstructionism of the GOP at that time. Can you acknowledge that?

Why do you think that the GOP wouldn't have done what they're doing now?

The GOP did not filibuster the 2011 budget process.

In fact, there was nothing TO fillibuster since Pelosi and Reid didn't even bother having committees mark bills to send to the House and Senate for final vote.

283 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:22:44pm

You can't fillibuster a vote on a bill that does not exist.

284 sagehen  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:22:48pm

re: #80 albusteve

the typical voter is uninformed, radically so...pols know it and abuse their trust...I spent a lot of time in Jamaica and politics is the national pastime...even illiterates know what's been said, understands repercussions, debate issues then walk all day to the polls to vote...they are not self absorbed like we are...it's not an impossible situation but little will change here until our hull is holed and the bilges flood...maybe that time is coming as a result of this latest fed caper

On Budget Day in the UK, they read the whole thing aloud, line by line, and it's broadcast live on BBC. Pubs are packed with people who are paying attention to every detail.

285 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:23:04pm

re: #282 TampaKnight

The GOP did not filibuster the 2011 budget process.

No, but they did filibuster almost every bill of any importance, correct?


In fact, there was nothing TO fillibuster since Pelosi and Reid didn't even bother having committees mark bills to send to the House and Senate for final vote.

Do you think she was just plain lazy, or do you think the GOP obstructionism had something to do with that?

286 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:23:57pm

re: #283 TampaKnight

You can't fillibuster a vote on a bill that does not exist.

You can filibuster almost everything that's brought up-- or, to put it in legislative terms, force cloture.

Can you acknowledge the unprecedented obstructionism of the GOP?

And if the GOP is filibustering the raise of the debt ceiling now, why do you think they wouldn't have, then?

287 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:25:38pm

re: #285 Obdicut

No, but they did filibuster almost every bill of any importance, correct?

Do you think she was just plain lazy, or do you think the GOP obstructionism had something to do with that?

Even if they were scared of a GOP fillibuster, it's their responsibility to bring budgets to the floor to vote on. Period. Using speculation as reasons to not even attempt a vote on a budget is entirely unacceptable.

And I would suggest that the CBO scoring of any Democrat budget that was proposed would be a hit to them leading up to the elections, so they chose to not even produce a budget proposal to score.

288 albusteve  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:28:06pm

re: #286 Obdicut

You can filibuster almost everything that's brought up-- or, to put it in legislative terms, force cloture.

Can you acknowledge the unprecedented obstructionism of the GOP?

And if the GOP is filibustering the raise of the debt ceiling now, why do you think they wouldn't have, then?

whatever...he's correct regarding the last two budgets...I thought everybody knew that

289 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:29:38pm

By the way, the Republicans didn't even have the ability to fillibuster in the Senate until Scott Brown was elected from MA, and as we've seen (and knew then), he's not an obstructionist but rather a pretty moderate Republican living in a liberal state.

There's no way he would have been the "last vote" on a fillibuster of something as important as our Federal budget.

290 sagehen  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:30:46pm

re: #171 TampaKnight

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

-Senator Barack Obama, 2006

But they didn't filibuster, did they? They didn't make demands that unless met they wouldn't allow the debt ceiling to be raised. Once they knew there were enough votes for it to pass, they let loose a few grandstanders to make a point about how this shouldn't have been necessary. Because there was a surplus when Bush came into office, and he pissed it away on tax cuts, unfunded wars, more tax cuts, Medicare D, and yet more tax cuts.

291 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:32:11pm

re: #287 TampaKnight

Even if they were scared of a GOP fillibuster, it's their responsibility to bring budgets to the floor to vote on. Period.

That isn't an answer to my question, though. I fully acknowledge that they should have brought a bill. Yes. Absolutely.

Using speculation as reasons to not even attempt a vote on a budget is entirely unacceptable.

Why? You're seriously saying that GOP obstructionism played no part in the lack of a budget? Or you're saying that we can't possibly talk about it, because it's all too speculative?

You don't find that a little intentionally blind?


And I would suggest that the CBO scoring of any Democrat budget that was proposed would be a hit to them leading up to the elections, so they chose to not even produce a budget proposal to score.

I fully agree that a large part of their decision not to bring it was political. As I've said, I consider it a failure on their part. I have no idea why you're continuing on this point.

Given that they didn't bring the budget, you yourself are speculating on what would have occurred. Since you hate speculation so much, this confuses me.


By the way, the Republicans didn't even have the ability to fillibuster in the Senate until Scott Brown was elected from MA, and as we've seen (and knew then), he's not an obstructionist but rather a pretty moderate Republican living in a liberal state.

That would have required an absolute party-line vote on the part of the Democrats, though, and you know that Blue Dog Democrats, on many issues, vote with Republicans. Right?


There's no way he would have been the "last vote" on a fillibuster of something as important as our Federal budget.

More speculation? Odd. I thought that was irresponsible.

Can you please make up your mind as to whether speculation is something that you dislike or something you're happy to engage in?

292 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:34:50pm

My speculation from a computer in Florida is far less meaningful than (supposedly) the speculation of the House Speaker and Senate Leader, as to why not to bring forth budgets to fund the United States government.

293 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:37:09pm

re: #292 TampaKnight

My speculation from a computer in Florida is far less meaningful than (supposedly) the speculation of the House Speaker and Senate Leader, as to why not to bring forth budgets to fund the United States government.

That is a total dodge.

You castigated me for speculation and then engaged in it. If you want to have an actual discussion, that's fine, but don't be hypocritical.

294 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:37:29pm

My point is simple: people look to the last month and get up in arms about how broken things are, but it's important to note that this is NOT something new. The absence of a budget for over 2 years now is a much longer, systemic problem and a much bigger sign, in my opinion, of broken politics.

And for the record, I would keep defense cuts to $400B over 10 years and return top marginal rate to 39% for people making more than $1M, and I would then reduce all rates in proportion by eliminating loopholes. They're a giant pain in the ass and a pure product of lobbying.

295 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:38:07pm

re: #293 Obdicut

That is a total dodge.

You castigated me for speculation and then engaged in it. If you want to have an actual discussion, that's fine, but don't be hypocritical.

I'm not castigating you, I was criticizing Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid.

Unless you're one of them.....

296 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:40:07pm

re: #295 TampaKnight

I'm not castigating you, I was criticizing Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid.

Unless you're one of them...

So when you said:


Even if they were scared of a GOP fillibuster, it's their responsibility to bring budgets to the floor to vote on. Period. Using speculation as reasons to not even attempt a vote on a budget is entirely unacceptable.

You were seriously saying that the Democrats should not have attempted to figure out what the GOP would do, in response to their actions?

I'm sorry, I didn't think that was your argument, since it's rather nonsensical.

Do you think that the CEO of a corporation shouldn't speculate about what his competitors might do?

Or a lawyer in a trial shouldn't speculate what his opposite number would?

297 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:41:32pm

re: #294 TampaKnight

My point is simple: people look to the last month and get up in arms about how broken things are, but it's important to note that this is NOT something new. The absence of a budget for over 2 years now is a much longer, systemic problem and a much bigger sign, in my opinion, of broken politics.

No, the risk of default is new. We may default, and if we do, it will be because the GOP blocked a clean debt increase. That is the plain fact.


And for the record, I would keep defense cuts to $400B over 10 years and return top marginal rate to 39% for people making more than $1M, and I would then reduce all rates in proportion by eliminating loopholes. They're a giant pain in the ass and a pure product of lobbying.

I agree with that, though I'd raise more taxes, including on people in my income level. Would you also increase the capital gains tax?

298 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:43:19pm

re: #297 Obdicut

No, the risk of default is new. We may default, and if we do, it will be because the GOP blocked a clean debt increase. That is the plain fact.

I agree with that, though I'd raise more taxes, including on people in my income level. Would you also increase the capital gains tax?

Nope, but would maybe consider a raise to only short term gains and to gains of substantial wealth- at least $300-500K.

299 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:43:30pm

Peter Graves disguised as "Rep. Jerry Lewis". That's a good one.

300 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:44:34pm

re: #298 TampaKnight

Nope, but would maybe consider a raise to only short term gains and to gains of substantial wealth- at least $300-500K.

Why do you prefer taxing income someone has actually worked for higher than unearned income?

And again:


No, the risk of default is new. We may default, and if we do, it will be because the GOP blocked a clean debt increase. That is the plain fact.

When you claimed that this was nothing new, you were saying something that is very, very, very wrong.

301 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:45:05pm

re: #284 sagehen

On Budget Day in the UK, they read the whole thing aloud, line by line, and it's broadcast live on BBC. Pubs are packed with people who are paying attention to every detail.

Well, technically they don't read the whole budget - there are hundreds of pages that are put out in background.
It is a very well watched speech though.

302 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:46:17pm

re: #300 Obdicut

Why do you prefer taxing income someone has actually worked for higher than unearned income?

And again:

When you claimed that this was nothing new, you were saying something that is very, very, very wrong.

I would argue, logically, that the risk of default has been evident for a long time now, well before this month. Again, if we had a budget passed in 2011 we would have had scoring and projections to tell us exactly when "Dooms Day" was to be.

Nowhere is it written that we have to wait until the last minute to raise this limit.

303 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:47:10pm

re: #302 TampaKnight

I would argue, logically, that the risk of default has been evident for a long time now, well before this month

No, it wasn't, unless what you're saying is that the Democrats should have realized that the GOP was this fiscally insane and this politically desperate. Is that what you mean?

304 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:48:10pm

re: capital gains taxes. I view long term profit absolutely as earned income, as you're tying up your personal capital, taking ownership in a company, and also assuming large amounts of risk by doing so.

Investment should be encouraged, for everyone, by keeping taxation rates low enough to allow people to see real returns whenever they do sell stock years down the road.

However, for day traders who can amass massive wealth in less than a year, I view that differently.

305 TampaKnight  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:49:10pm

re: #303 Obdicut

No, it wasn't, unless what you're saying is that the Democrats should have realized that the GOP was this fiscally insane and this politically desperate. Is that what you mean?

You're telling me that back when the President was signing $1T bills into law, no one foresaw the need to raise the debt limit?

306 Lidane  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:51:56pm

re: #305 TampaKnight

You're telling me that back when the President was signing $1T bills into law, no one foresaw the need to raise the debt limit?

The debt limit has been raised as a matter of course for how long now?

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why it's an issue now when it wasn't an issue for Republicans before.

307 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:52:19pm

re: #305 TampaKnight

You're telling me that back when the President was signing $1T bills into law, no one foresaw the need to raise the debt limit?

I'm sorry, but that's not an answer to my question. Never before in the history of the US has there ever been a doubt about the debt ceiling being raised, about the risk of default. Never, ever.

So, should the Democrats have foreseen the current state of blackmail and fiscal insanity because they should have judged just how far gone the GOP was with glibertarian nonsense?

Why should they have foreseen that the GOP would do this absolutely unprecedented thing?

308 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:53:09pm

re: #304 TampaKnight

re: capital gains taxes. I view long term profit absolutely as earned income, as you're tying up your personal capital, taking ownership in a company, and also assuming large amounts of risk by doing so.

All the same can be said of labor, though.

Investment should be encouraged, for everyone, by keeping taxation rates low enough to allow people to see real returns whenever they do sell stock years down the road.

Would you accept a capital gains rate pegged to inflation, but otherwise treated as normal income?

309 sagehen  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 5:01:04pm

re: #216 TampaKnight

...when the Democrats controlled the Presidency, the Senate (fillibuster proof), and the House?...

Stop saying that.

Even if you count Joe Lieberman as a Democrat (highly questionable), at no time was there a filibuster proof Senate majority. Al Franken didn't get seated until mid-summer, Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd were ill and absent most of the time.

310 sagehen  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 5:05:15pm

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

Well, if it gets Tea Party Caucus votes, then the Progressive Caucus will vote against it on general principals. The reverse is also true.

The Tea Party Caucus is demanding a constitutional amendment pass both houses by 3/4 and be sent to the states.

The progressive caucus wants to stop paying oil subsidies, and for corporate jets to be depreciated on the same schedule as commercial jets.

So... their "general principles" are not even vaguely similar in extremity.

311 sagehen  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 5:12:48pm

re: #273 TampaKnight

Out of ideas? The House passed a budget in the first 50 days of being in session, while the number for the Democrats is 823 days and counting.

You're speaking of the Ryan budget? Which adds $6T to the debt before it starts to turn around, and transforms medicare into a voucher system that is deliberately designed to make seniors pay more and more out of pocket each year?

The budget that's so *massively* unpopular among left right and center, young and old, that now they're trying to defuse it as a 2012 campaign issue by holding the entire global economy hostage to force the D's to make medicare cuts?

312 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 5:14:44pm

Dog time--BBKLre: #306 Lidane

The debt limit has been raised as a matter of course for how long now?

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why it's an issue now when it wasn't an issue for Republicans before.

There's a shade of difference.

313 sagehen  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 5:16:16pm

re: #289 TampaKnight

By the way, the Republicans didn't even have the ability to fillibuster in the Senate until Scott Brown was elected from MA, and as we've seen (and knew then), he's not an obstructionist but rather a pretty moderate Republican living in a liberal state.

There's no way he would have been the "last vote" on a fillibuster of something as important as our Federal budget.

Until Al Franken was seated, R's only needed 40 to filibuster. Any day that Ted Kennedy or Robert Byrd was sick at home the R's only needed 40 to filibuster.

And most days, Joe Lieberman is a stealth R.

314 sagehen  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 5:21:59pm

re: #304 TampaKnight

re: capital gains taxes. I view long term profit absolutely as earned income, as you're tying up your personal capital, taking ownership in a company, and also assuming large amounts of risk by doing so.

Investment should be encouraged, for everyone, by keeping taxation rates low enough to allow people to see real returns whenever they do sell stock years down the road.

However, for day traders who can amass massive wealth in less than a year, I view that differently.

Hedge fund managers aren't risking *any* of their own money -- but they get to declare their commission as capital gains and be taxed at the lower rate. The only thing they're risking is they'll be embarassed if they make stupid calls that go badly.

315 allegro  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 5:25:41pm

Senator Bernie Sanders on the Reid bill:

Sen. Bernie Sanders issued the following statement today after he voted against a Senate deficit- reduction proposal:
"The Republicans have been absolutely determined to make certain that the rich and large corporations not contribute one penny for deficit reduction, and that all of the sacrifice comes from the middle class and working families in terms of cuts in Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, LIHEAP, community health centers, education, Head Start, nutrition, MILC, affordable housing and many other vitally important programs.

"I cannot support legislation like the Reid proposal which balances the budget on the backs of struggling Americans while not requiring one penny of sacrifice from the wealthiest people in our country. That is not only grotesquely immoral, it is bad economic policy."

But the default is all the House Dems fault if there is a default. I mean, they wouldn't COMPROMISE.

316 BrainSurfer  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 7:42:14pm

So? ....And Obama voted against raising the debit limit, saying it is a fault of leadership. How Times change.

Today we are spending spending spending like an out-of-control shopaholic banshee believing in unlimited credit combined with a totally oblivious mindset as to the consequences. And there will be consequences.

And you Charles Johnson apparently buy into this mindset. How disappointing for someone I thought, some time ago, had an independent spirit.

317 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 9:32:26pm

re: #316 BrainSurfer

Somehow, I will find the strength to carry on despite your crushing disappointment.

318 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 10:30:04pm

re: #316 BrainSurfer

someone with "surfer" in their internet pseudonym has no business complaining about the independent spirit of anyone lol

319 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 10:30:56pm

re: #313 sagehen

Until Al Franken was seated, R's only needed 40 to filibuster. Any day that Ted Kennedy or Robert Byrd was sick at home the R's only needed 40 to filibuster.

And most days, Joe Lieberman is a stealth R.

he's an Aetna drone, with a helping of whiny-ass moral panic on the side

320 BrainSurfer  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 10:33:45pm

re: #317 Charles

Well, that's certainly reassuring, although "crushing" is a bit over-the-top. "Mildly mild" might be more accurate. So... carry on. I always enjoy stopping by and visiting.

321 Cankles McCellulite  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 10:43:12pm

re: #320 BrainSurfer

'Mildly mild' is more accurate for what?

322 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 12:50:18am

Ah. Dance of the Concern Troll, variant 7 in D minor: I'm terribly disappointed in your lack of independent thinking, demonstrated by not agreeing with me.

Down-ding.

323 Louis  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 7:41:44am

The Republicans aren't the only ones guilty of hypocrisy. In 2006, neither Barack Obama nor any other Democratic senator voted to raise the debt ceiling. why, you ask? Because a Republican was in the White House. Now they are being hoist on their own petard.

324 jamesfirecat  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 9:01:17am

re: #323 Louis

The Republicans aren't the only ones guilty of hypocrisy. In 2006, neither Barack Obama nor any other Democratic senator voted to raise the debt ceiling. why, you ask? Because a Republican was in the White House. Now they are being hoist on their own petard.

Except that not a single Democratic Senator in 2006 Filibustered the raising of the debt ceiling.

Given that they had 45 members they could have done it and could have made demands that the Republicans do X Y and Z or else they would make the country default....

But reasonable people/political parties don't knowingly play chicken with our countries economy as the stake.

There's a world of difference between casting a "No" vote as a symbolic gesture and actively trying to stop something from passing.

325 TampaKnight  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 9:55:26am

re: #314 sagehen

Hedge fund managers aren't risking *any* of their own money -- but they get to declare their commission as capital gains and be taxed at the lower rate. The only thing they're risking is they'll be embarassed if they make stupid calls that go badly.

1. Hence why I made a clear distinction between long term gains vs. short term. 99% of hedge funds trade entirely on a daily basis. I'd be really surprised if one position was held over a year, which is how the current tax code labels a long term gain.

2. You're right about hedge fund managers, but given WHO these funds represent with their management, if a manger were to royally screw up and lose his clients big money, it's likely they'd never find another job worth a damn on Wall St again.

Let's put it this way, I don't have massive amounts of money in the market compared to the big investors, but if my gains tax rate suddenly jumped from 15% to say, 30%, it would still be a major disincentive for me to put more money into a long term equity position.

Considering how small the capital gains tax is in terms of overall revenue, I see no reason to raise taxes on long term investments and potentially deter new investment.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2016-01-01 10:29 am PST
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds Tweet

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Square Cash Shop at amazon
as an LGF Associate!
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Philly’s Jury Duty LadyYes this is a good story about jury duty. Here is a woman who makes the most of a dreaded experience. She even held a jury back so that they could see if a contestant on "The Price is Right" ...
PhillyPretzel
24 minutes ago
Views: 28 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 2
Tweets: 0 • Share to Facebook
Greta Thunberg - Inspiring Others to Take a Stand Against Climate Change | The Daily Show [VIDEO]Sixteen-year-old climate activist Greta Thunberg explains why she traveled to America in a zero emissions boat and lays out the direct impact climate change has on the planet.
teleskiguy
16 hours, 31 minutes ago
Views: 126 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 3 • Share to Facebook
#Thegreatpoolpondconversion - 190908This is our 20th day, our 20th Sunday. Since we only work one day a week it's also our 20th week. And it was more of the same. Sort of. Following the design committee meeting last week, we started off ...
DangerMan
5 days, 21 hours ago
Views: 357 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 4
Tweets: 0 • Share to Facebook
UN: Solar Leads $2.5 Trillion Global Investment in Green Energy CN) – As global superpowers grapple with ditching fossil fuels many nations have flipped the switch on solar power and other renewable forms of energy in the last decade, with investments into those technologies expected to top $2.6 trillion ...
Thanos
1 week, 2 days ago
Views: 546 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 1 • Share to Facebook
#Thegreatpoolpondconversion - 190901Dorian. We're mostly out of it now. So we planned, then watched and then it turned north and became mostly a non event (for us).As of Sunday night we weren't even in the cone, though directly east 15 miles at ...
DangerMan
1 week, 5 days ago
Views: 536 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 4
Tweets: 0 • Share to Facebook
TVs to Shoes: This Time Consumers Face Pain of Trump Tariffs Just in time for Christmas shopping season! WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump’s trade war with China, until now mainly an abstraction for American consumers, is about to hit home. Beginning Sunday, the U.S. government will begin collecting 15% ...
Thanos
2 weeks, 1 day ago
Views: 580 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 2 • Share to Facebook
Democrats Adopt Resolution Embracing Religiously-Unaffiliated Several of the candidates in the Democratic Primary have "faith outreach directors" to approach religious people (particularly Christians) about matters of faith and how they intersect with politics. It's good to see that the Democratic Party has become the ...
Anymouse 🌹🎃
2 weeks, 3 days ago
Views: 705 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 3 • Share to Facebook
The Wild Reeds - Lose My Mind (Live on KEXP)kexp.org presents The Wild Reeds performing "Lose My Mind" live in the KEXP studio. Recorded May 14, 2019. Host: John RichardsAudio Engineer: Kevin SuggsCameras: Jim Beckmann, Scott Holpainen, Kendall Rock & Justin WilmoreEditor: Alaia D'Alessandro kexp.orgthewildreedsmusic.com
Thanos
2 weeks, 4 days ago
Views: 577 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 1 • Share to Facebook
American Horror Story: 1984 You're all gonna die. Watch the OFFICIAL TRAILER for #AHS1984. Premieres 9/18 on FX. Subscribe now for more American Horror Story clips: bit.ly American Horror Story is an anthology horror drama series created and produced by Ryan Murphy and ...
Thanos
2 weeks, 5 days ago
Views: 610 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 4 • Share to Facebook
Telekinesis - a Place in the Sun (Live on KEXP)kexp.org presents Telekinesis performing "A Place In The Sun" live in the KEXP studio. Recorded May 3, 2019. Host: Troy NelsonAudio Engineer: Kevin SuggsCameras: Jim Beckmann, Scott Holpainen & Justin WilmoreEditor: Scott Holpainen kexp.orgtelekinesismusic.com
Thanos
2 weeks, 5 days ago
Views: 578 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 2 • Share to Facebook