The Fjordman Deflection

A short statement about a predictable line of counter-attack
LGF • Views: 52,915

Anti-Muslim demagogue Pamela Geller is one of the star writers at Andrew Breitbart’s “Big Government” website, and I haven’t been shy about pointing out that fact.

So today I noticed that several of Breitbart’s camp followers are attacking me in turn, by noting that I once linked to Fjordman’s articles at LGF, and that I deleted many (but not all) of those posts.

A few points in reply:

1) I’ve never tried to hide the fact that I linked to Fjordman’s articles in the years before 2007. In fact, I clearly acknowledged it in this post about the Norway terrorist: The Oslo Terrorist’s ‘Counter-Jihad’ Ideology.

2) My posts about Fjordman were deleted years ago, because I realized that the person who had represented himself as a rational critic of Islam was, in reality, a white nationalist of a particularly sneaky and nasty sort. I didn’t remove those posts to hide anything — I removed them because I wanted his crap off my site, and wanted nothing to do with him or his followers.

3) I’ve never hidden any of this. I’ve spent the last four years refuting, debunking, and arguing against Fjordman and his associates, and I invite anyone to have a look through my archives and confirm this fact. And I did this precisely because I saw something like the Oslo atrocities coming, when Fjordman, Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer and the rest began dropping their masks and hooking up with European fascist groups like Vlaams Belang, the EDL, Sweden Democrats, Geert Wilders, etc., etc.

4) There’s a rather noticeable difference between this, and what Pamela Geller continues to do. One of these things is not like the other.

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99 comments
1 Kragar  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:11:21pm

Being a conservative means never admitting you might be wrong or that you made a mistake in the past.

If you do so, you're a dirty traitor.

Unless you're joining them, in which case you've found Jesus and all will be forgiven.

2 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:11:35pm

Sounds like a best selling thriller novel about a rogue agent in Norway who has stolen top secret information and is about to sell it.

He's caught by a British M5 agent. She's hot and has a troubled history involving weasels.

3 Four More Beers  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:12:25pm

Keep up the good fight, Charles.

4 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:12:56pm

Their sham game of tu quoque will not work but with the ignorant.

Keep at it, everyone.

5 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:13:16pm

How could any sane person who has read this blog for more than two days think that you support Fjordman or Geller?

6 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:13:36pm

re: #2 EmmmieG

Sounds like a best selling thriller novel about a rogue agent in Norway who has stolen top secret information and is about to sell it.

He's caught by a British M5 agent. She's hot and has a troubled history involving weasels.

Ice weasels?

7 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:16:16pm

re: #6 ralphieboy

Ice weasels?

She grew up in a cold water flat on government assistance. Feral weasels ate her only toy--a doll.

She now has a doll tattoo and shoots weasels on sight.

I'm not saying she's Ice Weasel.

Not saying that at all.

8 Alexzander  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:18:46pm

Thank you for addressing this!! I knew the "Charles Johnson edited his posts too!" whine was going to ramp up when the Geller articles were posted here.

On a related topic from the previous thread:

In the article which suggests that Brevik (or however you spell his name) had plastic surgery, it also mentions that his manifesto quotes extensively from the Unibomber. That sounds strange and wrong to me - very little ideological overlap.

Sergey, ICIHACOSP or anyone else who has read a lot of the manifesto have any insight there?

9 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:20:01pm

re: #5 EmmmieG

How could any sane person who has read this blog for more than two days think that you support Fjordman or Geller?

Maybe it lends itself to the attacking ideology: Fear of change, ignorance of change, decrying change as bad. Someone changes his mind, thus he must be a traitor, a hypocrite, a turncoat.

I guess that's their angle.

10 Four More Beers  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:21:00pm

Atlas Freaks:

I have refrained from running the absolutely breathtaking evil messages I have been receiving in my email box and comments section after the Norway massacre.

This is happening despite the fact that I was mentioned once (when the shooter pined for Chuck Johnson after Chuckie snapped). Apart from that, he footnoted a couple of news stories at Atlas -- that's the whole of it in a 1,518 page manifesto written after this barbarian devised his evil plan back in 2000.

And all the media and the leftwing subversives seek to achieve is the destruction of those who are resisting jihad. The hatred of the good for being the good.

The death threats, the depraved invective is what I have come to expect from the left and Islamic supremacists. It's the hypocrisy that makes me laugh. Tens of thousands of acts of jihad, with jihadis screaming allahu akbar, quoting quran, Bukhari, Muhammad (not to mention the attacks that were thwarted), but never do the media, the pundits, or the chattering class mention religious motivation or lay blame upon the ideology that inspires Islamic imperialism, expansionism, misogyny, and the universal caliphate.

11 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:21:32pm

re: #8 Alexzander

In the article which suggests that Brevik (or however you spell his name) had plastic surgery, it also mentions that his manifesto quotes extensively from the Unibomber. That sounds strange and wrong to me - very little ideological overlap.

Sergey, ICIHACOSP or anyone else who has read a lot of the manifesto have any insight there?

Search for "leftism" and "leftists" in the Unabomber manifesto.

12 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:22:45pm

Pam writes:"We are witnesssing the complete breakdown of rational society."

Uh. Yeah.

13 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:23:51pm

Unfortunately, to riff of the previous thread, this circle of bigoted, radical Anti-Jihadists people is a real tar baby, and Charles made the mistake of touching it....

No amount of scrubbing will remove the residual traces, and they seem to delight in reminding everyone of it, as a sort of punishment for having left the fold.

14 Kragar  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:24:12pm

I love how they can take someone's change of opinion and make it the primary causes for someone half a world away "snapping", especially when he was ideologically driven by the counter-jihad world view they preach.

15 Achilles Tang  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:24:44pm

How does this Fjordman manage to keep his identity secret in this age, or is it actually not a secret?

16 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:26:00pm

re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I love how they can take someone's change of opinion and make it the primary causes for someone half a world away "snapping", especially when he was ideologically driven by the counter-jihad world view they preach.

I think what they try to do (at least at GoV) is construct really ridiculous arguments to blame "the Left" for Breivik that they don't even believe in themselves in order to prove that the arguments that connect them to Breivik are equally ridiculous. It's a bizarre sort of meta-straw-man.

17 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:28:42pm

re: #12 Sergey Romanov

Pam writes:"We are witnesssing the complete breakdown of rational society."

Uh. Yeah.


Lemme repeat this again: Islamist terror acts in Norway a complete history:

assasination attempt in 1986 (foiled, no injuries)
synagoge firebombing in 2006 (building empty, no injuries)

I can understnd (even if I do not agree) that some people might perceive a threat to their society from Islamist influences. I conceed that they have a right to organize, protest and to disseminate information through media channels.

But armed insurrection? Pre-emptive mayhem? Bad enough that it has to happen, but we have people still defending it and implying that the victims were acceptable collateral damage in the great counter-Jihad struggle to save Civilization As We Know it

18 Alexzander  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:32:52pm

re: #11 000G

Search for "leftism" and "leftists" in the Unabomber manifesto.

I'm not sure what you're implying.

19 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:33:42pm

re: #2 EmmmieG

Sounds like a best selling thriller novel about a rogue agent in Norway who has stolen top secret information and is about to sell it.

He's caught by a British M5 agent. She's hot and has a troubled history involving weasels.

Ice weasels, no less!

20 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:35:03pm

re: #12 Sergey Romanov

Pam writes:"We are witnesssing the complete breakdown of rational society."

Uh. Yeah.

What Pam might mean, is "she has broken down and is not rational".
Pass the Stoli!

21 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:36:55pm

re: #18 Alexzander

I'm not sure what you're implying.

The Unabomber hated leftists with a passion, Breivik plagiarized from parts of Kaczynski's manifesto.

22 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:37:35pm

re: #12 Sergey Romanov

Pam writes:"We are witnesssing the complete breakdown of rational society."

Uh. Yeah.

Well, she's right.

(Perhaps not in the way she intended.)

23 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:38:18pm

re: #22 Fozzie Bear

That's what I said. I guess it looked sarcastic.

24 Alexzander  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:39:28pm

re: #21 goddamnedfrank

The Unabomber hated leftists with a passion, Breivik plagiarized from parts of Kaczynski's manifesto.

Most anarchists and radical environmentalists hate leftists.

Didn't know Kaczynski plagiarized though.

25 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:40:35pm

re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I love how they can take someone's change of opinion and make it the primary causes for someone half a world away "snapping", especially when he was ideologically driven by the counter-jihad world view they preach.

Someone else--as in someone not within their in-group--is always to blame. It's a basic structural element of the cognitive style (another being that anything done by a member of the in-group is an act of defense.)

26 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:42:20pm

Found this in the comments at Pam's....

Oh yeah and that doesn't even take into account of someone also being an unindicted co-conspriator in the Universal Auto World million-dollar fraud scheme, which the district attorney’s office indicted the Universal Auto World dealership (of which Pamela Geller was co-owner) on felony charges of larceny, fraud and falsifying written statements.

Google search: Universal Auto World fraud

Looks like an interesting story....
Nazeem Mohamed, Rajmohan Autar and Haimraj Prashad arrested at Universal Auto World Used Car Lot Scam, Co-Owned by Blogger Pamela Geller, Still Not in Jail.

27 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:42:28pm

re: #18 Alexzander

I'm not sure what you're implying.

The Unabomber was convinced "the Left" was society's internal enemy, Breivik was convinced of the same. Only he used different words:

The passages copied by Breivik appear in the first few pages of Kaczynski’s manifesto. Breivik changed a Kaczynski screed on leftism and what he considered to be leftists’ "feelings of inferiority" — mainly by substituting the words "multiculturalism" or "cultural Marxism" for "leftism". Breivik did not cite Kaczynski.

[Link: www.irishexaminer.com...]

28 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:43:58pm

re: #24 Alexzander

Most anarchists and radical environmentalists hate leftists.

Didn't know Kaczynski plagiarized though.

Breivik plagiarized from Kaczynski, Kaczynski was an original nut job.

29 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:44:09pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

hmmm!

30 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:44:13pm

re: #27 000G

The Unabomber was convinced "the Left" was society's internal enemy, Breivik was convinced of the same. Only he used different words:

[Link: www.irishexaminer.com...]

Btw, this is the part the rightwing media will not tell you about when they tell you that Breivik plagiarised from the Unabomber. They play on their audience's ignorance and imply that the Unabomber was some ecoterrorist leftie himself, thus Breivik must also have been a leftie or at least not a rightie.

31 Alexzander  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:44:30pm

re: #27 000G

Thank you - thats very interesting.

Seems kind of irrelevant given his other crimes but I despise plagiarisers. Caught many of them as a T.A.

32 b_Snark  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:44:40pm

re: #1 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Being a conservative means never admitting you might be wrong or that you made a mistake in the past.

If you do so, you're a dirty traitor.

Unless you're joining them, in which case you've found Jesus and all will be forgiven.

A real 'John Wayne' stands by his guns.

33 Achilles Tang  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:44:45pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

WTF?

34 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:45:07pm

Marxism isn't cultural. Where are they getting this shit?

It's a fucking economic theory. It has jack shit to do with culture.

35 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:45:07pm

re: #24 Alexzander

Most anarchists and radical environmentalists hate leftists.

Where do you get that idea from? Most anarchists and radical environmentalists I know are leftists.

36 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:46:30pm

re: #31 Alexzander

Thank you - thats very interesting.

Seems kind of irrelevant given his other crimes but I despise plagiarisers. Caught many of them as a T.A.

It is kind of interesting because he did give original authors credit for most of the parts of his manifesto that he copypasted together. I guess he did not like the idea of being associated with a terrorist, or something (I know, I am thinking what would sound rational to him).

37 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:46:32pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Wacky vibe from that site, dunno.

38 b_Snark  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:46:41pm

re: #9 000G

Maybe it lends itself to the attacking ideology: Fear of change, ignorance of change, decrying change as bad. Someone changes his mind, thus he must be a traitor, a hypocrite, a turncoat.

I guess that's their angle.

Sometimes your underwear gets so soiled, you have to change it.

39 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:46:48pm

re: #35 000G

Where do you get that idea from? Most anarchists and radical environmentalists I know are leftists.

Leftists are anarchists? Please explain.

40 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:47:11pm

re: #33 Naso Tang

WTF?

At first glance it's hard to tell what's going on but it looks like the cause of much of her legal problems. The story seems real but she might just be a hands off, silent partner. Still the business looks like it has serious legal problems.

41 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:48:38pm

re: #37 Sergey Romanov

Wacky vibe from that site, dunno.

That's why I linked to the google search too. This is the first I've heard of it. It all seems fairly recent, earlier this spring.

42 b_Snark  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:48:54pm

re: #18 Alexzander

I'm not sure what you're implying.

He's telling you where to look for the info you wanted.

43 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:50:09pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

That's why I linked to the google search too. This is the first I've heard of it. It all seems fairly recent, earlier this spring.

Yeah.

The guy is evidently obsessed with Pams (all the latest postings only about her). Doesn't mean his info is untrue, of course, but...

44 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:50:14pm

re: #34 Fozzie Bear

Marxism isn't cultural. Where are they getting this shit?

It's a fucking economic theory. It has jack shit to do with culture.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

45 Alexzander  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:51:18pm

re: #35 000G

Where do you get that idea from? Most anarchists and radical environmentalists I know are leftists.

Some anarchists are still comfortable with some identification with leftists, but the vast majority I've encountered aren't.

Post-Left Anarchy

A lot of it has to do with tactics. On the environmental side, if you are deeply passionate about the environment and believe industrial civilisation and capitalism are to blame, imagine how offensive "green capitalism" or "recycle toilet paper" might appear.

A similar line of thought is in play for anarchists and direct action against the government. See also property damage and the notion of 'violence.'

Here is (an admittedly hilarious) Star Wars spoof on passifist leftism by an anti-civilization author:

If Star Wars was written by environmentalists:

Give it a minute because it stars kinda slow.

46 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:51:44pm

re: #39 Fozzie Bear

Leftists are anarchists? Please explain.

Let's just say that it's a European tradition (Anarchists and Marxists were working together for quite some time, actually, until Marx and Bakunin broke up with each other). Anarchists being rightwing seems to be more of an American tradition.

47 Achilles Tang  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:51:48pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

At first glance it's hard to tell what's going on but it looks like the cause of much of her legal problems. The story seems real but she might just be a hands off, silent partner. Still the business looks like it has serious legal problems.

I thought it was a spoof or someone with the same name. What is she doing in business with someone called Mohammed?

48 b_Snark  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:53:44pm

re: #34 Fozzie Bear

Marxism isn't cultural. Where are they getting this shit?

It's a fucking economic theory. It has jack shit to do with culture.

Well, culture is affected by the economy which is affected by the theory being used, so there is some link, but I think that concept is beyond Geller's sycophants.

49 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:55:51pm

I wonder what exactly is happening on the photo (aside from the obvious): Image: hpim0351.jpg

I.e. where/who/why.

50 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:56:36pm

re: #17 ralphieboy

Lemme repeat this again: Islamist terror acts in Norway a complete history:

assasination attempt in 1986 (foiled, no injuries)
synagoge firebombing in 2006 (building empty, no injuries)

Well, to be precise: William Nygaard was shot and seriously hurt in an assasination attempt in 1993 (not 1986, I'm not actually sure what you are referring to there). He did survive. No one was arrested, but it has been connected to the fact that his publishing house published Rushdie's "Satanic Verses".

On the other hand, we've had the following right-wing extremist attacks - some proven, some suspected - in addition to the recent atrocities. They are mostly small-scale; so you decide if it is vandalism or terrorism. I haven't been able to check all of this, so take the list with a grain of salt; it should give you an overview, though.

1977: bombing of a radical left-wing bookstore in Tromsø
1979: bomb thrown at 1. May (Worker's Day)-parade, Oslo
1985: firebombing of the Normoske mosque, Oslo (some sources say dynamite was used, haven't been able to check this). Attempted arson at another Islamic centre in Oslo.
1988, February: bombing of an immigrant-owned store, Brumunddal
1988, March: firebombing of the same immigrant-owned store
1988, May: arson against an asylum refugee home, Steinkjer
1988, November: arson against an immigrant-owned store, Oppegård
1989: arson against an asylum refugee home, Oslo
1989: foiled bombing of an immigrant store, Trondheim
1989: arson against an asylum refugee home, Kristiansand
1990: as above
1993: arson against an asylum refugee home, Namsos
1993: suspected arson against an asylum refugee home, Vadsø
1996: arson against an immigrant family home, Stokke
1997: arson against an asylum refugee home, Dale, Rogaland
1999: molotov cocktails thrown at immigrant restaurants, Oslo
2000: arson against asylum refugee home, Oslo. Also suspected arson later the same year.

51 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:56:40pm

re: #49 Sergey Romanov

I wonder what exactly is happening on the photo (aside from the obvious): Image: hpim0351.jpg

I.e. where/who/why.

TSA?

52 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:57:25pm

re: #51 000G

TSA?

No, wait, carpet. Looks more like security for some government building.

53 b_Snark  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:57:30pm

re: #49 Sergey Romanov

I wonder what exactly is happening on the photo (aside from the obvious): Image: hpim0351.jpg

I.e. where/who/why.

The guard is looking for contraband benoit balls.

54 Alexzander  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:58:01pm

re: #46 000G

Anarchists being rightwing seems to be more of an American tradition.

Not right-wing (except for anarcho-capitalists, but that is largely unrelated to anarchism as generally understood). Post-Left.

55 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:58:39pm

re: #50 oslogin

11 years since the last attack, then? Too bad that break ended.

56 blueraven  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:58:47pm

OT: Congresswoman Gabriel Gifford is showing up for the debt ceiling vote tonight. Wow!

57 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:00:59pm

re: #54 Alexzander

Not right-wing (except for anarcho-capitalists, but that is largely unrelated to anarchism as generally understood). Post-Left.

Enh. I consider all third way constructs to be more or less right-wing.

58 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:01:13pm

re: #50 oslogin

And in addition, there have been some murders motivated by racism and nothing but racism, of course. However, that door might swing both ways, i.e. deaths due to anti-white racism.re: #55 000G

11 years since the last attack, then? Too bad that break ended.

There was a murder in 2001, were neo-Nazis murdered a young boy. After that, there was a massive anti-Nazi-campaign in Norway, resulting in these groups being very small and very insignificant, today. But now we're having a third wave of right-wing extremism, and then I'm not counting the WWII one.

59 blueraven  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:01:36pm

re: #56 blueraven

[Link: www.tucsonweekly.com...]

60 brownbagj  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:01:49pm

If the POTUS is a tar baby, then Fjordman is some sort of sticky white substance.

Try looking that last part up on google. Fjordman won't be pleased...

/

61 makeitstop  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:02:58pm

re: #56 blueraven

OT: Congresswoman Gabriel Gifford is showing up for the debt ceiling vote tonight. Wow!

That's great.

In related news - why am I getting the feeling that Boehner still doesn't have control of the House?

That vote could end up being quite interesting. I'm wondering what kind o deal Pelosi could wrangle out of Boehner at the last minute...

62 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:03:06pm

Hey all, I accomplished a little and took a nap.

The dogs are fed and I am here.

What did you do today?

63 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:03:24pm

re: #58 oslogin

But now we're having a third wave of right-wing extremism,

Even now, post-Breivik? How is that battle between civilized society and those who want to replace it going right now in Norway?

64 austin_blue  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:04:10pm

re: #21 goddamnedfrank

The Unabomber hated leftists with a passion, Breivik plagiarized from parts of Kaczynski's manifesto.

In addition, they are both nihilists and sociopaths.

65 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:04:40pm

re: #63 000G

Even now, post-Breivik? How is that battle between civilized society and those who want to replace it going right now in Norway?

Well; I think there's going to be a new anti-extremist campaign, to put it like that. The new wave is made up of anti-Islamic groups that claim no ideological affinity to neo-Nazis. They're mostly right. Doesn't make them any less fascist, though.

66 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:04:42pm

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

Posted: 5:00 AM, July 15, 2007

Detectives are investigating possible links between the men accused of gunning down two Brooklyn cops and an alleged million-dollar scam at a Long Island auto dealership.

While probing the murder of car salesman Collin Thomas outside the showroom of Universal Auto World in Lawrence, L.I., in January, cops unraveled what they said was a massive scam at the dealership.

Employees at Universal allegedly stole and bought identities, then used the IDs to obtain at least $1.3 million in financing for fancy cars, court records show.
[...]
As part of the homicide probe, Nassau County police raided the dealership, owned by auto czar Michael Oshry, and Oshry's Hewlett Harbor home and seized business records.
[...]
His ex-wife, Pamela Geller, former associate publisher of the New York Observer and a conservative blogger, burst into tears when told her ex is under criminal investigation.

Although listed in business records as a Universal co-owner, she denied it. "I have nothing to do with this," Geller said.

67 albusteve  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:05:07pm

re: #61 makeitstop

That's great.

In related news - why am I getting the feeling that Boehner still doesn't have control of the House?

That vote could end up being quite interesting. I'm wondering what kind o deal Pelosi could wrangle out of Boehner at the last minute...

very interesting...wonder who the TP die hards will be....if they vote nay, my guess is their cool job in the house is over

68 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:06:10pm

re: #65 oslogin

Well; I think there's going to be a new anti-extremist campaign, to put it like that. The new wave is made up of anti-Islamic groups that claim no ideological affinity to neo-Nazis. They're mostly right. Doesn't make them any less fascist, though.

define fascism.

69 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:06:48pm

re: #49 Sergey Romanov

I wonder what exactly is happening on the photo (aside from the obvious): Image: hpim0351.jpg

I.e. where/who/why.

Looks like airport screening

70 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:08:25pm

re: #64 austin_blue

In addition, they are both nihilists and sociopaths.

Why nihilists? The Unabomber believed to be fighting a luddite war for free humanity, Breivik believed to be fighting a crusade against Marxists and Muslims for a Europe of christian nations. They were completely whacko beliefs employed for murderous ends, and maybe in their hearts they just wanted to kill and felt they needed to come up with a reason for it. But on the surface, they clearly were not nihilists. They thought of themselves as doing the right thing, of being good. They did not deny the existence or validity of moral values, like a nihilist would.

71 Alexzander  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:08:40pm

re: #64 austin_blue

In addition, they are both nihilists and sociopaths.

You dont understand nihilism.

72 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:09:14pm

re: #12 Sergey Romanov

Pam writes:"We are witnesssing the complete breakdown of rational society."

Uh. Yeah.

The World is changing fast--those who can't keep up would see it as the breakdown of rational society.

I mean, you can now order a pizza on-line and have it delivered.

How weird is that?

73 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:11:06pm

re: #65 oslogin

Well; I think there's going to be a new anti-extremist campaign, to put it like that. The new wave is made up of anti-Islamic groups that claim no ideological affinity to neo-Nazis. They're mostly right. Doesn't make them any less fascist, though.

I think some of Europe's half-assedness when it comes to seperation of church and state might come back to bite it in the ass. It worked quite well for the Christians, whose churches are often state-sponsored and state-sanctioned. How can Islam integrate into this? Europe will have to face her own stance towards universal religious freedom as the issue will be used to crush or bolden all of Europe's civil liberties.

74 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:13:04pm

re: #68 ggt

define fascism.

"[Fascism is] a genuinely revolutionary, trans-class form of anti-liberal, and in the last analysis, anti-conservative nationalism. As such it is an ideology deeply bound up with modernization and modernity, one which has assumed a considerable variety of external forms to adapt itself to the particular historical and national context in which it appears, and has drawn a wide range of cultural and intellectual currents, both left and right, anti-modern and pro-modern, to articulate itself as a body of ideas, slogans, and doctrine. In the inter-war period it manifested itself primarily in the form of an elite-led "armed party" which attempted, mostly unsuccessfully, to generate a populist mass movement through a liturgical style of politics and a programme of radical policies which promised to overcome a threat posed by international socialism, to end the degeneration affecting the nation under liberalism, and to bring about a radical renewal of its social, political and cultural life as part of what was widely imagined to be the new era being inaugurated in Western civilization. The core mobilizing myth of fascism which conditions its ideology, propaganda, style of politics and actions is the vision of the nation's imminent rebirth from decadence".

75 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:14:18pm

re: #74 oslogin

Of course, since the interwar years, fascism has adapted and evolved - like any other ideology. But I guess you'll find quite a few recognisable elements there.

76 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:15:20pm

re: #74 oslogin

"[Fascism is] a genuinely revolutionary, trans-class form of anti-liberal, and in the last analysis, anti-conservative nationalism. As such it is an ideology deeply bound up with modernization and modernity, one which has assumed a considerable variety of external forms to adapt itself to the particular historical and national context in which it appears, and has drawn a wide range of cultural and intellectual currents, both left and right, anti-modern and pro-modern, to articulate itself as a body of ideas, slogans, and doctrine. In the inter-war period it manifested itself primarily in the form of an elite-led "armed party" which attempted, mostly unsuccessfully, to generate a populist mass movement through a liturgical style of politics and a programme of radical policies which promised to overcome a threat posed by international socialism, to end the degeneration affecting the nation under liberalism, and to bring about a radical renewal of its social, political and cultural life as part of what was widely imagined to be the new era being inaugurated in Western civilization. The core mobilizing myth of fascism which conditions its ideology, propaganda, style of politics and actions is the vision of the nation's imminent rebirth from decadence".

It's a form of nationalism--what does THAT mean?
is it an economic theory?
political theory?
form of government?
social theory?

77 austin_blue  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:16:33pm

re: #49 Sergey Romanov

I wonder what exactly is happening on the photo (aside from the obvious): Image: hpim0351.jpg

I.e. where/who/why.

Looks kind of like Schiphol. They have little security checkpoints *at every gate*, instead of at the dividing line between the gate areas and the rest of the Terminal. The whole damn airport is a mall. You can buy anything there.

78 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:18:12pm

re: #77 austin_blue

Looks kind of like Schiphol. They have little security checkpoints *at every gate*, instead of at the dividing line between the gate areas and the rest of the Terminal. The whole damn airport is a mall. You can buy anything there.

I was at Schiphol just last week. I don't remember any carpets at security. Also, low ceiling.

79 BishopX  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:19:10pm

re: #66 Sergey Romanov

Here's the press release for the arrests: Linky

80 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:21:54pm

re: #76 ggt

It's a form of nationalism--what does THAT mean?
is it an economic theory?
political theory?
form of government?
social theory?

Economic theory? No. Most interwar and WWII-fascism had a corporatist aspect to it, with certain similarities to socialism, but modern-day fascists are found in various economic camps. The British National Party, which has very direct historical ties to post-WWII neo-fascism is left-leaning in economics. The Vlaams Belang, which has similar, very clear historical ties, is right-leaning.

However, modern-day fascists do often object to both "international capitalism" and "socialism"; like the Utøya terrorist does in his so-called manifesto (which is a cut-and-paste work, anyway).

Political theory? Oh, yes.
Form of government? Well, if they come into power.
Social theory? Oh, yes.

81 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:22:44pm

re: #80 oslogin

Economic theory? No. Most interwar and WWII-fascism had a corporatist aspect to it, with certain similarities to socialism, but modern-day fascists are found in various economic camps. The British National Party, which has very direct historical ties to post-WWII neo-fascism is left-leaning in economics. The Vlaams Belang, which has similar, very clear historical ties, is right-leaning.

However, modern-day fascists do often object to both "international capitalism" and "socialism"; like the Utøya terrorist does in his so-called manifesto (which is a cut-and-paste work, anyway).

Political theory? Oh, yes.
Form of government? Well, if they come into power.
Social theory? Oh, yes.

My brain hurts. Is there a concise definition of fascism?

82 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:25:41pm

re: #81 ggt

My brain hurts. Is there a concise definition of fascism?

Problem is that the scholars of fascism is not quite in agreement with eachother. Then, on the other hand, try finding a concise definition of socialism which includes both the Norwegian Labour party and the German Rote Armee Fraktion, and maybe Pol Pot, too. I think you'll find it somewhat problematic.

I'm using Roger Griffin's definition here. A shorter variant:
"[F]ascism is best defined as a revolutionary form of nationalism, one that sets out to be a political, social and ethical revolution, welding the ‘people’ into a dynamic national community under new elites infused with heroic values. The core myth that inspires this project is that only a populist, trans-class movement of purifying, cathartic national rebirth (palingenesis) can stem the tide of decadence".

83 austin_blue  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:26:29pm

re: #70 000G

Why nihilists? The Unabomber believed to be fighting a luddite war for free humanity, Breivik believed to be fighting a crusade against Marxists and Muslims for a Europe of christian nations. They were completely whacko beliefs employed for murderous ends, and maybe in their hearts they just wanted to kill and felt they needed to come up with a reason for it. But on the surface, they clearly were not nihilists. They thought of themselves as doing the right thing, of being good. They did not deny the existence or validity of moral values, like a nihilist would.

But they both wanted to bring chaos to their cultures, yes? And they didn't care who got hurt. Maybe I just don't understand what the word means.

Errrmmm...

84 austin_blue  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:27:38pm

re: #78 000G

I was at Schiphol just last week. I don't remember any carpets at security. Also, low ceiling.

Good point, been a few years since I've through there.

85 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:28:33pm

re: #82 oslogin

Problem is that the scholars of fascism is not quite in agreement with eachother. Then, on the other hand, try finding a concise definition of socialism which includes both the Norwegian Labour party and the German Rote Armee Fraktion, and maybe Pol Pot, too. I think you'll find it somewhat problematic.

I'm using Roger Griffin's definition here. A shorter variant:
"[F]ascism is best defined as a revolutionary form of nationalism, one that sets out to be a political, social and ethical revolution, welding the ‘people’ into a dynamic national community under new elites infused with heroic values. The core myth that inspires this project is that only a populist, trans-class movement of purifying, cathartic national rebirth (palingenesis) can stem the tide of decadence".

I can get my head around:

Fascism is a political ideology. The word fascism is derived from Fascis. A Latin word meaning to "bundle".

That is as far as I can take it. Beyond that it seems to be used for whatever those in power seem to want at any given time.

86 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:28:54pm

re: #83 austin_blue

But they both wanted to bring chaos to their cultures, yes? And they didn't care who got hurt.

They thought their cultures were already engulfed by chaos. They did care very much who got hurt, both targetted their victims and did not murder indiscriminately.

They had values (or at least acted like they had), only they were fucked up values.

87 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:29:16pm

nihil is latin for "nothing".

88 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:30:42pm

re: #81 ggt

My brain hurts. Is there a concise definition of fascism?

Knock yourself out: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

89 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:33:19pm

re: #88 000G

Knock yourself out: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

My point being that it is a word that really shouldn't be used. A lot of people throw it around. It seems to have NO MEANING.

90 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:35:34pm

re: #89 ggt

My point being that it is a word that really shouldn't be used. A lot of people throw it around. It seems to have NO MEANING.

Meaning depends on usage. I do not think that oslogin was throwing it around or using it in a meaningless way.

91 albusteve  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:36:23pm

re: #89 ggt

My point being that it is a word that really shouldn't be used. A lot of people throw it around. It seems to have NO MEANING.

don't be difficult...the definition is one of three most important factoids you need to know to live a happy life

92 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:40:18pm

re: #85 ggt

I can get my head around:

Fascism is a political ideology. The word fascism is derived from Fascis. A Latin word meaning to "bundle".

That is as far as I can take it. Beyond that it seems to be used for whatever those in power seem to want at any given time.

Lots of people throw it around. I don't. Take the Vlaams Belang, I've written a long essay (in Norwegian, I'm afraid) where I discuss that party using different scholarly definitions of fascism. Every single one of them matches to a very large degree. And they have historical ties to the neo-fascist movements of the 1960s. One of their founders translated the possibly first Holocaust denialist work into Dutch, and the author of that book - Maurice Bardeche - was a friend of his, and a self-declared fascist.

Point is: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck; it most likely is a duck.

93 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:40:38pm

re: #90 000G

Meaning depends on usage. I do not think that oslogin was throwing it around or using it in a meaningless way.

I don't think oslogin meant to throw it around, and it had different meanings to different people.

It should be used with extreme caution.

94 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:41:38pm

re: #92 oslogin

Lots of people throw it around. I don't. Take the Vlaams Belang, I've written a long essay (in Norwegian, I'm afraid) where I discuss that party using different scholarly definitions of fascism. Every single one of them matches to a very large degree. And they have historical ties to the neo-fascist movements of the 1960s. One of their founders translated the possibly first Holocaust denialist work into Dutch, and the author of that book - Maurice Bardeche - was a friend of his, and a self-declared fascist.

Point is: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck; it most likely is a duck.

oh, I wish your article were translated. I've tried to understand the concept of fascism for sometime and just can't.

95 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:41:45pm

re: #85 ggt

I can get my head around:

Fascism is a political ideology. The word fascism is derived from Fascis. A Latin word meaning to "bundle".

That is as far as I can take it. Beyond that it seems to be used for whatever those in power seem to want at any given time.

Lots of people throw it around. I don't. Take the Vlaams Belang, I've written a long essay (in Norwegian, I'm afraid) where I discuss that party using different scholarly definitions of fascism. Every single one of them matches to a very large degree, as long as the definition in itself does not put a "time limit" (some people tend to think that fascism ended in 1945. I don't). And they have historical ties to the neo-fascist movements of the 1960s. One of their founders translated the possibly first Holocaust denialist work into Dutch, and the author of that book - Maurice Bardeche - was a friend of his, and a self-declared fascist.

Point is: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck; it most likely is a duck. If it sings like a swan (or like a crow for that matter), it most likely isn't.

96 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:42:13pm

Sorry about the double post. Some computer problems here.

97 Lidane  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 5:40:04pm

re: #5 EmmmieG

How could any sane person who has read this blog for more than two days think that you support Fjordman or Geller?

Seriously.

If I had even an inkling that Charles or LGF supported people like Geller, Spencer, Fjordman, Wilders, or the EDL, I wouldn't be here. I'm not interested in aligning myself with that kind of bigotry and ignorance. Charles has been very open in his hostility towards those people and their bigoted views.

98 Lidane  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 5:40:53pm

re: #34 Fozzie Bear

Marxism isn't cultural. Where are they getting this shit?

It's a fucking economic theory. It has jack shit to do with culture.

They're getting it from the same place they get everything else-- they're pulling it out of their collective ass.

99 abolitionist  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 6:44:18pm

re: #71 Alexzander

You dont understand nihilism.

I understand it enough not to care about it.


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