Kerry’s ‘Tea Party Downgrade’ Comment Causes Outbreak of Right Wing Whining

This was what the Tea Party wanted, so why are they complaining?
Opinion • Views: 36,508

Right wing blogs are all in a huff today because Sen. John Kerry said the dreaded words, “Tea Party downgrade.”

“This is the Tea Party downgrade because a minority of people in the House of Representatives countered even the will of many Republicans in the United States Senate who were prepared to do a bigger deal,” Kerry said today on NBC’s “Meet the Press.’’

What I don’t get: Tea Party leaders wished out loud for the US to default on its debt payments, so why are they whining now when people blame them for the S&P downgrade?

I mean, they didn’t get everything they wanted; they didn’t get to cause a full-fledged economic disaster. But they did manage to force the first US credit downgrade in history, and that’s not too shabby. Maybe next time the apocalypse.

Be proud, Teabaggers! It’s what you wanted. Own it.

Jump to bottom

326 comments

1 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:08:56pm

Kerry has a point but he's still an asshole. But it was actions he took before I was born that make him an asshole in my eyes, not his words today. Those words are well within normal bounds.

2 makeitstopghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:09:07pm

He clearly struck a nerve with that one.

It's okay or them to wish for financial catastrophe with all their little black hearts, Charles - but calling them on it? Nope, not fair.

3 Idle Drifter  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:11:07pm

Oh, those poor tea partiers! They really didn't want the country to fail! Really, honest! They only wanted power without any of the responsibility or consequences.

////

4 Lidane  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:11:08pm
What I don’t get: Tea Party leaders wished out loud for the US to default on its debt payments, so why are they whining now when people blame them for the S&P downgrade?

It's more of that conservative self-victimization.

They can say all the hateful, ignorant, mean-spirited things they want, but the second you call them on it, you're the hater and they're the victim.

5 jaunte  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:11:56pm
McCain: “For them to then agree to tax increases and spending increases was obviously a repudiation of the mandate they felt they had from last November,” the Arizona Republican said.


Even if it meant uselessly spending even more on interest to service the debt stacked up over the last 11 years. Stupid and wasteful.

6 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:12:51pm

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

Kerry has a point but he's still an asshole. But it was actions he took before I was born that make him an asshole in my eyes, not his words today. Those words are well within normal bounds.

Great. Nice lead in comment. The proverbial Kerry derangement about the Vietnam War. Give it a rest already.

7 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:13:28pm

re: #5 jaunte

Even if it meant uselessly spending even more on interest to service the debt stacked up over the last 11 years. Stupid and wasteful.

Though that last should not be directed towards John McCain, who was just trying to deliver an analysis of the tea Party's actions. But those actions were indeed stupid and counter-productive.

8 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:14:35pm

re: #6 Gus 802

Great. Nice lead in comment. The proverbial Kerry derangement about the Vietnam War. Give it a rest already.

I despise him for that. John Kerry did no wrong with his words today, I agree. But his old misdeeds I cannot forgive. So i said it once and will now drop it.

9 makeitstopghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:15:18pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

Though that last should not be directed towards John McCain, who was just trying to deliver an analysis of the tea Party's actions. But those actions were indeed stupid and counter-productive.

Please. McCain is as much part of the problem as the most rabid TP back-bencher. He has a responsibility to call out the extremists in his midst, and he has completely abdicated that responsibility.

Not part of the solution, etc.

10 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:15:58pm

I can forgive John Kerry for many things, but I can't forgive this:

Image: kerry-football-crotch-01.jpg

11 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:16:59pm

re: #10 Charles

I can forgive John Kerry for many things, but I can't forgive this:

Image: kerry-football-crotch-01.jpg

No PS?

12 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:17:22pm

re: #9 makeitstop

Please. McCain is as much part of the problem as the most rabid TP back-bencher. He has a responsibility to call out the extremists in his midst, and he has completely abdicated that responsibility.

Not part of the solution, etc.

I thought he called them Hobbits, or was that someone else? Even if he did; too little too late.

13 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:18:09pm

re: #10 Charles
Oh, for all the under crotched things for him to do.
Does he have no shame?

/

14 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:18:55pm

re: #10 Charles

I can forgive John Kerry for many things, but I can't forgive this:

Image: kerry-football-crotch-01.jpg

Looks like he's in mid-swing to put his head up his ass ;-P

15 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:20:06pm
I mean, they didn’t get everything they wanted; they didn’t get to cause a full-fledged economic disaster. But they did manage to force the first US credit downgrade in history, and that’s not too shabby. Maybe next time the apocalypse.

n

Oh, we still have Monday. The markets are going to react.

USA USA USA!

Traitors if you are against a baseless war? YEAH. Fuck the American economy? You are such assholes.

16 Idle Drifter  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:20:42pm

re: #10 Charles

I can forgive John Kerry for many things, but I can't forgive this:

Image: kerry-football-crotch-01.jpg

17 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:21:04pm

re: #12 Naso Tang

I thought he called them Hobbits, or was that someone else? Even if he did; too little too late.

It was a Wall Street Journal editorial that said that. McCain read from it on the senate floor. But while he was angry then and had gone in fighting, now the battle is over and he's analyzing it (as he was trained to do).

18 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:21:18pm

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

Kerry has a point but he's still an asshole. But it was actions he took before I was born that make him an asshole in my eyes, not his words today. Those words are well within normal bounds.

You Dark, victim of propoganda.

The source of your belief? The dude who is trying to make money still off the birth cert.

PLEASE.

19 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:21:33pm

re: #10 Charles

I can forgive John Kerry for many things, but I can't forgive this:

Image: kerry-football-crotch-01.jpg

He certainly has a sordid history.

20 makeitstopghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:21:41pm

re: #12 Naso Tang

I thought he called them Hobbits, or was that someone else? Even if he did; too little too late.

Yep, that was him.

Kind of a weird thing to call them, honestly.

21 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:21:53pm

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

I despise him for that. John Kerry did no wrong with his words today, I agree. But his old misdeeds I cannot forgive. So i said it once and will now drop it.

You despise him for what?

Whatever Jerome Corsi told you to hate him for?

Rotfl!

22 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:22:01pm

re: #15 Stanley Sea

n

Oh, we still have Monday. The markets are going to react.

USA USA USA!

Traitors if you are against a baseless war? YEAH. Fuck the American economy? You are such assholes.

DOW futures so far are around -250.

23 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:22:30pm

Nikkei 9,299.88 -359.30 -3.72%
TOPIX 800.96 -25.40 -3.07%
Hang Seng 20,946.10 -938.60 -4.29%

24 tifosa  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:22:37pm

Boehner: "we got 98% of what we want." Cleaver; it's a "Satan Sandwich." Yeh, for sure the own this.

25 makeitstopghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:22:49pm

re: #21 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You despise him for what?

Whatever Jerome Corsi told you to hate him for?

Rotfl!

That's gonna leave a mark. :)

26 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:22:58pm

re: #4 Lidane

It's more of that conservative self-victimization.

They can say all the hateful, ignorant, mean-spirited things they want, but the second you call them on it, you're the hater and they're the victim.

It is totally a situation of crying victim. That's their game plan.

Weak, no leadership, good grief, they want the nuke codes

27 Idle Drifter  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:23:02pm

re: #19 Slumbering Behemoth

He certainly has a sordid history.

Kerry, open your eyes man!

28 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:23:10pm

Futures:

DJIA INDEX 11,143.00 -259.00 11,187.00 11,187.00 11,115.00 18:07
S&P 500 1,169.90 -27.90 1,198.80 1,172.80 1,165.00 18:07
NASDAQ 100 2,142.75 -44.25 2,155.50 2,155.50 2,130.00 18:07

29 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:23:45pm

re: #18 Stanley Sea

You Dark, victim of propaganda.

The source of your belief? The dude who is trying to make money still off the birth cert.

PLEASE.

I'm talking about Kerry's actions after coming home, not his deeds in Vietnam. But I don't want to make this a discussion about me. Let's discuss it some other time.

30 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:23:47pm

DJI -259
S&P -28
NASDAQ -44

31 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:23:57pm

re: #18 Stanley Sea

You Dark, victim of propoganda.

The source of your belief? The dude who is trying to make money still off the birth cert.

PLEASE.

Why, what would the neighbors think if I made my own decisions! They might look at me funny!

Too many cons will fall for anything they are told.

32 Digital Display  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:24:19pm

re: #10 Charles

I can forgive John Kerry for many things, but I can't forgive this:

Image: kerry-football-crotch-01.jpg

LOL He looks goofy.. He should have done the whole JFK thing and passed the football around..or jump on his Boat and played George Washington in Cargo shorts and an Old Navy Tee-shirt on..Which always beats driving a Tank with a goofy hat on...Maybe he could just sail board..
But seriously.. Kerry was very well spoken on MTP today...I liked his tone, ideas and him trying to connect with McCain across the aisle ...
I've never been a Kerry fan but he did really well today...

33 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:24:54pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

I'm talking about Kerry's actions after coming home,

Which were what?

According to whom?

34 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:25:11pm

I still don't understand exactly what it is the Tea party wants. The Tea partiers i know want an end to a democratic government because we live in a religious kingdom run by god and our democratic government is an usurper to that. But i don't know if this is what all Tea partiers want or just the ones i know personally.

35 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:25:29pm

re: #22 Gus 802

DOW futures so far are around -250.

Hate to upding that, but oh boy.

Traitors!

36 tifosa  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:25:48pm

btw, I would have LOVED to hear him say "teabaggers" just sayin'

37 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:25:55pm

re: #18 Stanley Sea

You Dark, victim of propoganda.

The source of your belief? The dude who is trying to make money still off the birth cert.

PLEASE.

He's referring to this.

[Link: facultystaff.richmond.edu...]

38 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:27:46pm

re: #10 Charles

I can forgive John Kerry for many things, but I can't forgive this:

Image: kerry-football-crotch-01.jpg

Image: Kerry_bunny_suit.jpg

39 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:27:58pm
What I don’t get: Tea Party leaders wished out loud for the US to default on its debt payments, so why are they whining now when people blame them for the S&P downgrade?

I mean, they didn’t get everything they wanted; they didn’t get to cause a full-fledged economic disaster. But they did manage to force the first US credit downgrade in history, and that’s not too shabby. Maybe next time the apocalypse.


..and here are the quotes to prove it.

40 jaunte  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:28:26pm

re: #22 Gus 802

So, with a strong assist from Fox News misinformation, a lot of people will blame their 401k shrinkage on Obama. Mission accomplished, Tea Party.

41 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:29:12pm

re: #4 Lidane

It's more of that conservative self-victimization.

They can say all the hateful, ignorant, mean-spirited things they want, but the second you call them on it, you're the hater and they're the victim.

It stems from a supremacist attitude about who they are, and what they think they are supposed to have coming to them.

If they're not permitted to rule everyone else, they are being deprived of their natural rights. This is exactly the mentality that propels demagogues like Bull Connor, George Lincoln Rockwell and Father Coughlin to power, and makes mass murderers like Breivik and jihadi suicide bombers.

42 S'latch  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:29:14pm

I wonder if the downgrade will have much actual effect. It might, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't.

"As a rule, investors demand higher interest rates for riskier loans. So if S&P's downgrade worries investors, the U.S. could be forced to pay higher interest on its debt." Jacob Goldstein for NPR

But, obviously, if there are enough investors to whom AA+ is just as good as AAA, it won't matter.

Also, if something does bother an investor enough to demand a higher interest rate, it might not be simply because S&P downgraded the U.S. by one notch. There could be many other reasons, like the fact that the U.S. economy is so anemic.

43 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:29:31pm

re: #33 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Which were what?

According to whom?

I didn't want to get into the issue of Kerry. I just wanted do the Internet equivalent of flipping Kerry the bird before stating he was within the lines today. I don't want a lengthy discussion about Vietnam.

44 tifosa  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:29:46pm

this is the 2% they didn't get, Boehner "ok, now we got 100%."

45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:30:16pm

re: #10 Charles

I grew a deep dislike for the man when he walked out the the woods carrying the geese that he killed for a stupid photo op.

46 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:30:43pm

oops...
Here are the quotes: Origins of the debt showdown

For Republican leaders, there was pride in a hand well played. “I think some of our members may have thought the default issue was a hostage you might take a chance at shooting,” Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said. “Most of us didn’t think that. What we did learn is this — it’s a hostage that’s worth ransoming.”

McCarthy was more plain-spoken.

“Would Democrats have ever agreed if they thought the new freshman class was going to roll over? No. The freshmen made our hand so much stronger,” he said in an interview. “You had a fear of how far they would go. I’m sure the president looks back, too, and was fearful. But in negotiations, isn’t that the best thing?”

Chaffetz, who voted against both Boehner’s first proposal and the final bill, said he was well aware of how the leadership had used his and others’ willingness to let a default happen as a negotiating chip, and said he didn’t mind at all. “We weren’t kidding around, either,” he said. “We would have taken it down.”


It was a downgrade or the default. Those were the only options the GOP would allow.

47 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:30:55pm

re: #45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I grew a deep dislike for the man when he walked out the the woods carrying the geese that he killed for a stupid photo op.

Plus, he looks French.
//

48 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:31:01pm

re: #45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I grew a deep dislike for the man when he walked out the the woods carrying the geese that he killed for a stupid photo op.

"Where can I get one of them there huntin' licenses?"

49 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:31:26pm

Don't worry folks! Help is on the way!

//

thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Bachmann: "I will work really hard to get rid of the EPA" if elected President (via @joshdorner)

thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Bachmann: "I will build a fence on EVERY INCH" of southern border, "from stem to stern" (via @JoshDorner)

50 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:31:30pm

re: #40 jaunte

So, with a strong assist from Fox News misinformation, a lot of people will blame their 401k shrinkage on Obama. Mission accomplished, Tea Party.

I think the GOP is going to get hammered in the polls.

51 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:31:55pm

re: #43 Dark_Falcon

I didn't want to get into the issue of Kerry. I just wanted do the Internet equivalent of flipping Kerry the bird before stating he was within the lines today. I don't want a lengthy discussion about Vietnam.

You don't have any reason to despise him. Somebody else's swift boat rationale, perhaps, but no reason.

52 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:31:57pm

re: #37 rwdflynavy

OK, rwdflynavy, this to me is amazing. You and Kerry were service members. Is it the ultimate no no to question the mission?

Because that's how I see it. Kerry questioned the mission. It pissed every pro military person off, because they are supposed to do their order based jobs. Got that problem.

But the story in the end is Kerry was right.

53 jaunte  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:32:01pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

I hope enough people are paying attention.

54 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:32:26pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

Now that's responsible governing.
/

55 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:32:47pm

re: #40 jaunte

So, with a strong assist from Fox News misinformation, a lot of people will blame their 401k shrinkage on Obama. Mission accomplished, Tea Party.

Teaparty/gop/fox

All the same

56 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:33:18pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

oops...
Here are the quotes: Origins of the debt showdown


It was a downgrade or the default. Those were the only options the GOP would allow.

Not really, they don't understand the meaning of either term.

What they wanted was their way; nothing else matters.

57 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:33:43pm

re: #53 jaunte

I hope enough people are paying attention.

People will pay attention to the last ad from a 501c or 503c (what ever) they see on TV.

58 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:33:53pm

re: #37 rwdflynavy

He's referring to this.

[Link: facultystaff.richmond.edu...]

Indeed, I am. Thank you.

59 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:33:56pm

re: #52 Stanley Sea

OK, rwdflynavy, this to me is amazing. You and Kerry were service members. Is it the ultimate no no to question the mission?

Because that's how I see it. Kerry questioned the mission. It pissed every pro military person off, because they are supposed to do their order based jobs. Got that problem.

But the story in the end is Kerry was right.

I just linked to the testimony to clear up any confusion. Didn't give my opinion on Kerry, his service or his testimony.

60 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:34:27pm

re: #42 Lawrence Schmerel

I wonder if the downgrade will have much actual effect. It might, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't.

"As a rule, investors demand higher interest rates for riskier loans. So if S&P's downgrade worries investors, the U.S. could be forced to pay higher interest on its debt." Jacob Goldstein for NPR

But, obviously, if there are enough investors to whom AA+ is just as good as AAA, it won't matter.

Also, if something does bother an investor enough to demand a higher interest rate, it might not be simply because S&P downgraded the U.S. by one notch. There could be many other reasons, like the fact that the U.S. economy is so anemic.

People are going to make money off of this. It's the American Way.

61 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:34:34pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

Don't wanna play by our rules? Well then we're taking your ball and going home!

62 Idle Drifter  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:34:50pm

re: #49 Gus 802

Don't worry folks! Help is on the way!

//

thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Bachmann: "I will work really hard to get rid of the EPA" if elected President (via @joshdorner)

thinkprogress ThinkProgress
Bachmann: "I will build a fence on EVERY INCH" of southern border, "from stem to stern" (via @JoshDorner)

Yeah, because I want to live in one of China's industrial cities with no air quality control and a multi-billion dollar fence full of holes.

63 blueraven  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:35:00pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

oops...
Here are the quotes: Origins of the debt showdown


It was a downgrade or the default. Those were the only options the GOP would allow.

These sound like the negotiations from the enemy camp, not political opponents. I know politics aint bean bag, but its not supposed to be M.A.D either.

64 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:35:02pm

re: #52 Stanley Sea

OK, rwdflynavy, this to me is amazing. You and Kerry were service members. Is it the ultimate no no to question the mission?

Because that's how I see it. Kerry questioned the mission. It pissed every pro military person off, because they are supposed to do their order based jobs. Got that problem.

But the story in the end is Kerry was right.

And that is precisely why anti-Kerry conservatives so easily rationalize hating him.

Questioning the war (well, in public, anyway) is secondary, although, yes, they despise people who question what they are told, too.

65 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:35:21pm

re: #51 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You don't have any reason to despise him. Somebody else's swift boat rationale, perhaps, but no reason.

Didn't Kerry throw his medals away? I don't blame him, considering the nature of that war, quite the opposite. But I understand how someone on the moderate right could despise him for this action.

66 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:38:15pm

re: #51 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You don't have any reason to despise him. Somebody else's swift boat rationale, perhaps, but no reason.

Did T. Boone Pickens even serve? I don't think he did. Another thing is that the same swift boat crazies even went after McCain in 2008. Oh the sweet irony.

67 Jaerik  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:38:25pm

Most economic bloggers I'm reading, conservative and liberal alike, are brushing off the downgrade as likely having little effect. At the end of the day, people need to figure out the safest place to stash their money, and Japan and Europe are both in trouble as well. As long as the US remains the least risky (and we still pretty much are), it won't matter.

That and the fact that most of the statutory interest rate adjustment policies only take effect if 2 out of the 3 major agencies issue a downgrade. The other two have said they won't.

S&P in particular is in a ton of hot water for their completely BS ratings of mortgage-backed derivatives, and their single opinion, while embarrassing for us, just doesn't come with the forceful imperative of the voice of god.

68 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:38:27pm

re: #48 Cannadian Club Akbar

"Where can I get one of them there huntin' licenses?"

He has people for that. And, for killing the geese; it appeared.

69 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:39:18pm

re: #64 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

And that is precisely why anti-Kerry conservatives so easily rationalize hating him.

Questioning the war (well, in public, anyway) is secondary, although, yes, they despise people who question what they are told, too.

And he is painted as a traitor. To this damn day. Same folks calling for us to get out of Afghanistan stat.

bleh

70 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:40:02pm

re: #65 Sergey Romanov

Didn't Kerry throw his medals away? I don't blame him, considering the nature of that war, quite the opposite. But I understand how someone on the moderate right could despise him for this action.

From the moderate right to the extremist right, they'll dream up any old reason to fill themselves up with hate for somebody who questions them.

Yet, the same people who claim to be so supportive of troops rationalized running around with purple hearts drawn on band aids.

I guess it makes them "feel safe" or whatever. /

71 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:40:31pm

re: #68 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He has people for that. And, for killing the geese; it appeared.

I generally hunt chickens and cows. At Publix.:)

72 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:41:03pm
73 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:41:29pm

re: #52 Stanley Sea

OK, rwdflynavy, this to me is amazing. You and Kerry were service members. Is it the ultimate no no to question the mission?

Because that's how I see it. Kerry questioned the mission. It pissed every pro military person off, because they are supposed to do their order based jobs. Got that problem.

But the story in the end is Kerry was right.

Shhh, we're pretending Mai Lai was a single, isolated incident that Kerry could have never gotten any kind of word of and that he made everything up. Except for that lone aberrant example our involvement in Viet Nam was nothing but sunshine and lollipops, characterized by orderly efficiency and zero dysfunction.

74 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:44:17pm

What's even further depressing to me. There's not talk of actually cooperating to fix the problem. It's done, it's fucked and there is no solution. It can't be fixed.

75 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:44:25pm

re: #73 goddamnedfrank

Shhh, we're pretending Mai Lai was a single, isolated incident that Kerry could have never gotten any kind of word of and that he made everything up. Except for that lone aberrant example our involvement in Viet Nam was nothing but sunshine and lollipops, characterized by orderly efficiency and zero dysfunction.

Shut up! We were only trying to make the world safe for democracy!

76 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:44:41pm

re: #71 Cannadian Club Akbar
And I hunt for mine at Genuaris. And sometimes Wegmans.

77 blueraven  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:44:50pm

re: #67 Jaerik

Most economic bloggers I'm reading, conservative and liberal alike, are brushing off the downgrade as likely having little effect. At the end of the day, people need to figure out the safest place to stash their money, and Japan and Europe are both in trouble as well. As long as the US remains the least risky (and we still pretty much are), it won't matter.

That and the fact that most of the statutory interest rate adjustment policies only take effect if 2 out of the 3 major agencies issue a downgrade. The other two have said they won't.

S&P in particular is in a ton of hot water for their completely BS ratings of mortgage-backed derivatives, and their single opinion, while embarrassing for us, just doesn't come with the forceful imperative of the voice of god.

That may be true but its just another (unnecessary) hit we dont need right now.

78 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:45:05pm

re: #70 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

From the moderate right to the extremist right, they'll dream up any old reason to fill themselves up with hate for somebody who questions them.

Yet, the same people who claim to be so supportive of troops rationalized running around with purple hearts drawn on band aids.

I guess it makes them "feel safe" or whatever. /

The way Kerry was treated in 2004 was atrocious. And he was better than Bush in any case (if only Supreme Court-wise). I remember the details quite well. But some of his inconsistencies - like throwing away the medals (or pretending to throw them away) while later using them as a prop (let's be frank here) did not help.

79 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:45:21pm

re: #72 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yeah, that's pretty insulting.

80 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:46:44pm

re: #67 Jaerik

Most economic bloggers I'm reading, conservative and liberal alike, are brushing off the downgrade as likely having little effect. At the end of the day, people need to figure out the safest place to stash their money, and Japan and Europe are both in trouble as well.

GOLD!

/always believe in your soul, you've got the power to know...

81 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:46:55pm

Crap. I'm having flashbacks.

82 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:47:32pm

So when do we bring up Jane Fonda!!11ty??

83 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:47:45pm
84 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:48:14pm

re: #81 Gus 802

Crap. I'm having flashbacks.

Chris Knight: Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort of sun-god robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?
Mitch: No...
Chris Knight: Why am I the only one who has that dream?

85 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:48:34pm

re: #81 Gus 802

Crap. I'm having flashbacks.

FWIW...

86 blueraven  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:48:50pm

re: #78 Sergey Romanov

The way Kerry was treated in 2004 was atrocious. And he was better than Bush in any case (if only Supreme Court-wise). I remember the details quite well. But some of his inconsistencies - like throwing away the medals (or pretending to throw them away) while later using them as a prop (let's be frank here) did not help.

Kerry was not a good candidate overall, but the swift boaters are some of the most despicable people ever claiming to be patriots.

87 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:48:52pm

I was looking at the Malkin blog and noticed that while there is a log in and comments, there doesn't appear to be a registration. Is that by invitation or periodic registrations like at LGF?

88 tifosa  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:49:11pm

Actually, Kerry could have improved his game. He could have said "the TEABAGGERS own this."

89 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:49:13pm

re: #82 Gus 802

So when do we bring up Jane Fonda!!11ty??

I'm just ignoring it. John Kerry is not the problem with the economy.

90 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:49:19pm

re: #78 Sergey Romanov

The way Kerry was treated in 2004 was atrocious. And he was better than Bush in any case (if only Supreme Court-wise). I remember the details quite well. But some of his inconsistencies - like throwing away the medals (or pretending to throw them away) while later using them as a prop (let's be frank here) did not help.

Kerry derangement is just stupid. The rwnj behave this way because they are out of ideas of their own, except turn the clock back to 1953 and let the overprivileged exploit whomever they want, at will. This is all they have, anymore.

91 SpaceJesus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:49:24pm

where is the button that raises taxes on the super rich

92 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:49:44pm

re: #86 blueraven

Kerry was not a good candidate overall, but the swift boaters are some of the most despicable people ever claiming to be patriots.

True, most, if not all were scum.

93 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:50:17pm

re: #82 Gus 802

So when do we bring up Jane Fonda!!11ty??

She's 73.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

94 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:50:37pm

re: #88 tifosa

Actually, Kerry could have improved his game. He could have said "the TEABAGGERS own this."

No. Then the whole brouhaha would be about how he used a word meaning an obscene thing.

95 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:51:38pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

I'm just ignoring it. John Kerry is not the problem with the economy.

Yeah. No amount of tired old "Swift Boat" talking points about Kerry will change the truth to Kerry's words.

96 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:52:47pm

re: #94 Sergey Romanov

No. Then the whole brouhaha would be about how he used a word meaning an obscene thing.

Obscene? The thing isn't by itself. Depends on the wearer.

97 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:54:24pm

re: #96 Naso Tang

Obscene? The thing isn't by itself. Depends on the wearer.

You do know what teabagging originally is? If not, go to google image search and enter it. Enjoy.

^oшo^

98 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:55:04pm

U.S. FUTURES

Dow -259.00

99 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:55:12pm

they didn’t get to cause a full-fledged economic disaster

i'm not so sure they didn't

100 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:55:20pm

re: #84 rwdflynavy

Chris Knight: Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort of sun-god robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?
Mitch: No...
Chris Knight: Why am I the only one who has that dream?

Mitch: What are you doing?
Chris Knight: Self-realization. I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "... I drank what?"

/love Real Genius

101 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:56:18pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout
spot price of oil is $84.47.

102 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:56:21pm

re: #97 Sergey Romanov

OOpsie. I thought it was a pun on T-back. Perhaps I've watched the wrong category of porn.

103 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:56:27pm

re: #90 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Kerry derangement is just stupid. The rwnj behave this way because they are out of ideas of their own, except turn the clock back to 1953 and let the overprivileged exploit whomever they want, at will. This is all they have, anymore.

The weird thing is that 1953 was far better for the underprivileged than today, assuming of course they were white. A single income family could afford a house, a car, be able to take a vacation every year and send their children to college. The Republicans are aiming for 1929-30, a total economic collapse caused by zero government market oversight, isolationist foreign policy and ginormous income disparities.

104 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:56:30pm

S&P's not blameless either -- they have plenty of skeletons in their closet. But they wouldn't have had the excuse to do this downgrade if the Republican Tea Party hadn't manufactured a completely phony, unnecessary "crisis" in order to force through a far right agenda of economic social engineering.

105 blueraven  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:57:05pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

U.S. FUTURES

Dow -259.00

I suspect we will have a bad day...not just over the downgrade but concerns in Europe. But in the end I dont think the downgrade will be a huge factor after a day or two.

106 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:57:25pm

re: #102 Naso Tang

OOpsie. I thought it was a pun on T-back. Perhaps I've watched the wrong category of porn.

You've learned something new today. *_^

107 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:58:25pm

re: #105 blueraven

I suspect we will have a bad day...not just over the downgrade but concerns in Europe. But in the end I dont think the downgrade will be a huge factor after a day or two.

I suspect US markets already did most of their adjusting on Thursday.

108 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 3:59:45pm

re: #101 PhillyPretzel

spot price of oil is $84.47.

Volatility index is way up.

109 Amory Blaine  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:00:03pm

Page 4

Compared with previous projections, our revised base case scenario now
assumes that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, due to expire by the end of 2012,
remain in place. We have changed our assumption on this because the majority
of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise
revenues, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the act.

110 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:00:11pm

re: #97 Sergey Romanov

You do know what teabagging originally is? If not, go to google image search and enter it. Enjoy.

^oшo^

Thanks to the GOP, we gamers have had to refer to them as victory crouches.

111 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:00:35pm

Re: "teabaggers", look at these seething blowholes, wasting perfectly good tea.

Image: tea-party-325a.jpg

Image: teabag-hat_1617669i.jpg

Image: Sweeney-wears-tea-bag-hat-at-tea-party-rally-in-Chicago.jpg

Image: 0416_LOC_tea_party_003_t607.jpg

Lol who told them hanging teabags from their hats was a good idea? "Teabaggers" is a nice term to describe them.

112 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:00:39pm

Department Of Inconvenient Facts

what malkin tells her readers:

Last Tuesday the US saw the largest one-day debt bump in history. On Friday S&P downgraded US credit for the first time in history, saying it was because the government wasn’t addressing unsustainable spending aggressively enough — and it’s the Tea Party’s fault?

what s&p actually concluded:

The outlook on the long-term rating is negative. As our downside alternate fiscal scenario illustrates, a higher public debt trajectory than we currently assume could lead us to lower the long-term rating again. On the other hand, as our upside scenario highlights, if the recommendations of the Congressional Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction--independently or coupled with other initiatives, such as the lapsing of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts for high earners--lead to fiscal consolidation measures beyond the minimum mandated, and we believe they are likely to slow the deterioration of the government's debt dynamics, the long-term rating could stabilize at 'AA+'.

[Link: msnbcmedia.msn.com...]

113 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:01:24pm

re: #109 Amory Blaine

Page 4

The Democrats should run a national TV ad that is nothing but that and McConnell's "hostage" quote, over and over and over again.

114 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:01:47pm

re: #103 goddamnedfrank

The weird thing is that 1953 was far better for the underprivileged than today, assuming of course they were white. A single income family could afford a house, a car, be able to take a vacation every year and send their children to college. The Republicans are aiming for 1929-30, a total economic collapse caused by zero government market oversight, isolationist foreign policy and ginormous income disparities.

Lol that was a typo - should have read 1853.

115 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:01:59pm

re: #110 laZardo

Thanks to the GOP, we gamers have had to refer to them as victory crouches.

You gamers, and your mating habits/

116 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:02:39pm

Pasta. bbiab

117 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:03:10pm

re: #113 goddamnedfrank

The Democrats should run a national TV ad that is nothing but that and McConnell's "hostage" quote, over and over and over again.

Too complex. Far too many words with more than 5 letters. KISS rules.

118 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:03:34pm

re: #105 blueraven

I suspect we will have a bad day...not just over the downgrade but concerns in Europe. But in the end I dont think the downgrade will be a huge factor after a day or two.

I think it will. The dollar is down also. Plus S&P will come out with the rest of their opinion on Monday. Then we have this:

Muni Market Prepares for Lost AAA Ratings

This could be big for states. States are already in deep trouble and this may worsen things.

Quote:

The aftermath of the U.S. downgrade and possible municipal rating cuts may further deter investors from buying local government debt, according to DeGroot.

119 sod  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:04:06pm
Since then, we have changed our view of the difficulties in bridging the gulf between the political parties over fiscal policy, which makes us pessimistic about the capacity of Congress and the Administration to be able to leverage their agreement this week into a broader fiscal consolidation plan that stabilizes the government's debt dynamics any time soon.

Yeah, because before the Tea Party, Congress really demonstrated the ability to work together to "stabilize the government debt dynamics".

What a joke.

120 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:05:48pm

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

"Did God Create the Universe?" is the premiere episode of the new Discovery series "Curiosity," which will air concurrently on TLC and Animal Planet, and there is something hopeful about that. Even in these jaded times, God manages to trump sex, aliens, evil and the panoply of other tantalizing topics that will be explored in future episodes, while, in the world of Discovery anyway, Stephen Hawking, who's featured in the episode, remains a bigger name than Robin Williams, Samuel Jackson, Maggie Gyllenhaal or any of the other A-listers who participated in subsequent episodes.

121 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:06:20pm

Muni Market Prepares for Lost AAA Ratings

The $2.9 trillion municipal bond market is preparing for “hundreds and hundreds” of downgrades after Standard & Poor’s lowered the U.S. one level to AA+, the first-ever reduction for the country.

S&P is likely to cut its ratings on municipal debt secured by the federal government, such as pre-refunded bonds, tax- exempts backed by U.S. agencies, and credits that are most dependent on federal spending, Peter DeGroot, head of municipal research at JPMorgan Chase & Co. (JPM), wrote in an Aug. 5 report distributed after the federal downgrade. The New York-based ratings company said it would release a statement on state and local issuers today.

“There will be hundreds and hundreds of municipal downgrades, which will not do well to bolster investor confidence,” Matt Fabian, a managing director of Concord, Massachusetts-based Municipal Market Advisors, said in a telephone interview. “Treasuries may be able to shake off a real impact from the downgrade. Munis I’m less sure about.”

122 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:06:38pm

re: #119 sod

Yeah, because before the Tea Party, Congress really demonstrated the ability to work together to "stabilize the government debt dynamics".

What a joke.

I assume that was an attempt at sarcasm but the debt ceiling raise has always been a formality. Some partisan bickering and grandstanding but this is the first time in our nation's history was one party was ready to pull the trigger and default. Like it or not, this is indeed something new.

123 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:07:16pm

Translation: more slashing of state budgets and furthering the cause of union busting by Republican governors.

124 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:07:25pm

re: #119 sod

Yeah, because before the Tea Party, Congress really demonstrated the ability to work together to "stabilize the government debt dynamics".

What a joke.

Before the Tea Party nobody ever tried to take America's ability to pay its debt hostage before.

People voted against it can you find me an example of anybody ever filibustering or overturning a blank bill to raise the debt ceiling before?

125 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:08:18pm

re: #119 sod

Yeah, because before the Tea Party, Congress really demonstrated the ability to work together to "stabilize the government debt dynamics".

What a joke.

They never filibustered a debt ceiling increase before, that's what S&P means by "brinksmanship."

126 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:08:37pm

re: #123 Gus 802

Translation: more slashing of state budgets and furthering the cause of union busting by Republican governors.

Which is what the Tea Party wants. That is until it begins to affect their entitlements. It will also affect fire departments and police departments across the country.

127 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:09:10pm

So yeah. Worry about what Kerry said 1,000 years ago instead.

128 Amory Blaine  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:10:36pm

I would like to see the "S&P Research Update: Our Role In The Financial Meltdown"

129 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:10:46pm

Hey, Obdi.

130 Kewalo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:11:41pm

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

What did Kerry do that you can't forgive? He went to Vietnam, got shot and came home to protest the war. So, what are you mad about?

131 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:11:47pm

re: #127 Gus 802

It's been like, what, 50+ posts since someone has? I bet it'll die if we let it.

133 Kid Aghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:13:08pm

re: #130 Kewalo

What did Kerry do that you can't forgive? He went to Vietnam, got shot and came home to protest the war. So, what are you mad about?

He shot himself!

134 Kid Aghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:14:11pm

re: #132 Slumbering Behemoth

The rent is too damn.. wait, what?

Less than $900 for an apartment in Manhattan??!!

135 JRCMYP  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:15:15pm

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

Kerry has a point but he's still an asshole. But it was actions he took before I was born that make him an asshole in my eyes, not his words today. Those words are well within normal bounds.

Those the actions he took 15 years ago? Because you seriously are a child.

136 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:15:36pm

Get out of my yard!

137 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:17:04pm

re: #105 blueraven

Are you still online? If so, check out the weapons-grade disingenuous derp in this thread, attributing words to you that you never even said:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

138 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:17:31pm

re: #133 Kid A

He shot himself!

Hurr hurrrrr


Image: bandaid.jpg

139 Digital Display  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:18:24pm

re: #136 Charles

Get out of my yard!

[Video]

That was sick!

140 jaunte  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:19:25pm

Still not satisfied:


Tea Party Supporters Oppose Debt Agreement, 68% to 22%

PRINCETON, NJ -- Tea Party supporters overwhelmingly disapprove of the agreement reached by President Obama and Congress to raise the federal debt ceiling, by a 68% to 22% margin.
141 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:20:45pm

re: #137 publicityStunted

Are you still online? If so, check out the weapons-grade disingenuous derp in this thread, attributing words to you that you never even said:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Another C- student in Argument and Persuasion 101 at Teabag U.

142 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:21:02pm

re: #140 jaunte

They never will be happy until things go their way.They act like spoiled kids. /

143 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:21:30pm

If I don't scorn it, can I still kiss it?

144 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:22:59pm

Ok, off to rent some Burn Notice. bbiab

145 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:23:08pm

re: #128 Amory Blaine

I would like to see the "S&P Research Update: Our Role In The Financial Meltdown"

I think they've already explained themselves. They personally warned everybody involved that they would downgrade unless there was 4 trillion in deficit reduction. That was probably why Obama's grand comprimise was priced at 4 trillion. The fact that the GOP wouldn't even consider a deal to avoid downgrading our credit rating means that S&P was probably right. The GOP is willing to sink the economy. It's a serious concern as long as they have a say in US economic maters.

146 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:24:13pm

re: #140 jaunte

Still not satisfied:

Yeah. The "great thinkers" of the Tea Party. I'm sure they wanted all spending cuts. Meanwhile ignoring their own pensions and entitlements including Social Security and Medi*. 68% of Teabaggers also believe in haunted houses, ghosts, goblins and Hobbits. Especially Hobbits since they are ones themselves.

147 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:26:16pm

It is kind of Ironic that the Republicans now own the economy by doing this. They own all the crap that comes out of this stupid decision to not reduce the debt.

148 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:27:09pm

re: #146 Gus 802

Alright. I am getting sick of the fucking hate here. HOBBITS ARE COOL!!!

And one glaringly obvious difference between hobbits and teabaggers is...

Hobbits actually enjoy life.

149 SteelGHAZI  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:27:36pm

re: #147 Killgore Trout

It is kind of Ironic that the Republicans now own the economy by doing this. They own all the crap that comes out of this stupid decision to not reduce the debt.

But but but... Lefties! LEFTIES!!11ty

150 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:27:59pm

re: #148 Slumbering Behemoth

Alright. I am getting sick of the fucking hate here. HOBBITS ARE COOL!!!

And one glaringly obvious difference between hobbits and teabaggers is...

Hobbits actually enjoy life.

I know. I thought about that... "But weren't Hobbits supposed to be..."

151 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:29:02pm

re: #147 Killgore Trout

It is kind of Ironic that the Republicans now own the economy by doing this. They own all the crap that comes out of this stupid decision to not reduce the debt.

Do you really think enough voters can figure it out, though, especially in the face of relentless Koch-funded propaganda onslaughts?

152 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:29:42pm

re: #84 rwdflynavy

Is that the real you that started following me on Twitter today? Just checking... ;)

153 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:30:10pm

TPGOP.

154 jaunte  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:30:30pm

re: #148 Slumbering Behemoth

Hobbits actually enjoy life.

It's the Longbottom Leaf.

155 sod  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:31:05pm

RE: all

So raising the debt ceiling in perpetuity is good I guess? And you guys were probably flipping houses in 2005 and telling everyone "Real Estate never goes down in value!"

The simple fact is that the status quo would have resulted in exactly nothing. But I guess as long as the apple cart stays upright it doesn't matter that it's heading for the cliff.

156 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:31:17pm

re: #140 jaunte

Still not satisfied:

Most of the TPers will never be satisfied until the federal government is cut to the bone (except all-holy Defense), Obama is driven from office (by hook or by crook), and the country (and, by extension, the world) is set ablaze in their revolutionary zeal.

Make no mistake: the hardcore TPers are just as "revolutionary" as the Bolsheviks, Mao's bunch, and Fidel and Che, to name a few. However, instead of purporting to fight for the people, they're fighting for the dirty rich and the corporatists (who must be laughing their asses off, getting so much help at lining their pockets and increasing their political influence from those who are too dumb to see or are complicit in being used).

157 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:32:26pm

re: #154 jaunte

That would also explain the six meals a day. Those little dudes no how to live.

158 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:32:58pm

re: #155 sod

RE: all

So raising the debt ceiling in perpetuity is good I guess? And you guys were probably flipping houses in 2005 and telling everyone "Real Estate never goes down in value!"

The simple fact is that the status quo would have resulted in exactly nothing. But I guess as long as the apple cart stays upright it doesn't matter that it's heading for the cliff.

Que?

159 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:33:31pm

re: #155 sod

So raising the debt ceiling in perpetuity is good I guess?

I suppose you can explain why it isn't?

160 sod  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:34:07pm

I gotta go, I'll check back in later to see how many down dings I've got. Charles, was the get out of my yard post a dig at sod?

161 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:34:33pm

Oh geez.

162 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:34:39pm

re: #160 sod

I gotta go, I'll check back in later to see how many down dings I've got. Charles, was the get out of my yard post a dig at sod?

Que?

163 jaunte  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:34:40pm

re: #155 sod

We heard 'deficits don't matter' when a Republican president was in office. The inevitable result of wars conducted 'off the books' is more deficit.

164 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:34:51pm

Someone's in a weird mood.

165 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:35:08pm

re: #160 sod

Yeah, it's all about you.
/

166 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:35:34pm

re: #160 sod

Talk some sense and debate a bit (with real facts) instead of poking the bear, then you would need to be so paranoid...

167 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:36:20pm

re: #155 sod

RE: all

So raising the debt ceiling in perpetuity is good I guess? And you guys were probably flipping houses in 2005 and telling everyone "Real Estate never goes down in value!"

The simple fact is that the status quo would have resulted in exactly nothing. But I guess as long as the apple cart stays upright it doesn't matter that it's heading for the cliff.

And the GOP just added rocket boosters to the cart with their actions.

168 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:36:35pm

re: #166 talon_262

PIMF

Meant "then you wouldn't need to be so paranoid"

169 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:37:01pm

re: #160 sod

I gotta go, I'll check back in later to see how many down dings I've got. Charles, was the get out of my yard post a dig at sod?

First attempt ever on LGF to merge pun thread with flounce?

170 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:37:28pm

re: #151 publicityStunted

Do you really think enough voters can figure it out, though, especially in the face of relentless Koch-funded propaganda onslaughts?

Fox News veiwers won't but they are a very small minority. Even before this the Republicans were dropping in the polls on economic matters. A pretty solid majority said they'd blame the gop for a default, same will probably apply to the downgrade. Obama has a solid lead over Republicans. We'll have to see but I think it's going to hurt the GOP pretty bad, this was all pretty obvious.
Even worse for the GOP, the Chamber of Commerce starting publishing open letters to Republican leadership about threatening default and dragging out the negotiations to the last second. The GOP is creating an unstable environment to conduct business. It's going to cost them.

171 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:37:34pm

re: #167 Varek Raith

And the GOP just added rocket boosters to the cart with their actions.

Thelma and Louise. They Tea Party is Thelma and the GOP is Louise.

//

172 darthstar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:37:46pm

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

I despise him for that. John Kerry did no wrong with his words today, I agree. But his old misdeeds I cannot forgive. So i said it once and will now drop it.

I think his risking his own life to protect his boat and crew was pretty admirable...or are you talking about his protesting the war after having been there to see it first hand?

Eight days later, on February 28, 1969, came the events for which Kerry was awarded his Silver Star. On this occasion, Kerry was in tactical command of his Swift boat and two others in an eight boat formation. Their mission on the Duong Keo river included bringing a demolition team and dozens of South Vietnamese Marines to destroy enemy sampans, structures and bunkers as described in the story The Death Of PCF 43.[37] Running into an ambush, Kerry "directed the boats to turn to the beach and charge the Viet Cong positions" and he "expertly directed" his boat's fire and coordinated the deployment of the South Vietnamese troops, according to the original medal citation (signed by Admiral Zumwalt). Going a short distance farther, Kerry's boat was the target of an RPG round; as the boat beached at the site, a VC with a rocket launcher jumped and ran from a spider hole. While the boat's gunner opened fire, wounding the VC on the leg, and while the other boats approached and offered cover fire, Kerry jumped from the boat and chased the VC and killed him, capturing a loaded rocket launcher.


Yeah...unforgivable...if he was a Republican the teabaggers would be eating the peanuts out if his shit.

173 sod  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:38:36pm

re: #159 Slumbering Behemoth

I suppose you can explain why it isn't?

Well I guess I could say that the outlook on the long-term rating is negative. I could lower the long-term rating to 'AA' within the next two years if I see that less reduction in spending than agreed to, higher interest rates, or new fiscal pressures during the period result in a higher general government debt trajectory than I currently assume in my base case.

174 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:40:09pm

re: #173 sod

You seem to be missing/ignoring the fact the the downgrade was entirely the fault of the TPGOP.

175 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:40:27pm

re: #173 sod

We have had big debt issues before. Never got downgraded. What makes the obvious difference is the sudden willingness of many in Congress to deliberately default for the sake of a tax pledge.

176 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:40:46pm

re: #147 Killgore Trout

It is kind of Ironic that the Republicans now own the economy by doing this. They own all the crap that comes out of this stupid decision to not reduce the debt.

No, they don't. The President owns the economy in the public eye, for good or ill. That's how it has been and how it will be.

177 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:40:55pm

re: #174 Varek Raith

You seem to be missing/ignoring the fact that the downgrade was entirely the fault of the TPGOP.

THE THE!
...
..
.

178 RadicalModerate  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:42:29pm

And that would make two petulant whiners that we've had to suffer today.

179 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:42:46pm

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

No, they don't. The President owns the economy in the public eye, for good or ill. That's how it has been and how it will be.

Unfortunately.

180 jaunte  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:43:58pm

re: #179 laZardo

This is the great political discovery of the Tea Party/hostage-takers.

181 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:44:29pm

re: #172 darthstar

I am angry with him for his actions after coming home. His actions in Vietnam came into question in 2004, but those questions have been answered to my satisfaction. What he said happened to him over there is what happened to him. That part I accept.

182 sod  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:44:40pm

re: #169 publicityStunted

Thanks for acknowledging that, I try for quantity and sometimes hit pay dirt.

I'm really not trying to flounce, I just like to fly by and stir the pot. I don't have any answers but I don't believe that everything was AOK prior to the Tea Party. I agree they did the wrong thing about the debt ceiling, but, honestly, what will it take to get a handle on government spending and the debt? Assuming debt is bad which I think it is. That doesn't seem to be the consensus here though.

183 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:44:49pm

re: #180 jaunte

This is the great political discovery of the Tea Party/hostage-takers.

Still can't believe McConnell was dumb enough to come out and say that.

184 Digital Display  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:45:07pm

The maid is here..Of course the first thing I did was throw my laundry into a basket..It's weird..It's like I feel guilty and she will judge me..
oh well..And I'm starving but I won't eat in front of her.. Guess I'll just wait..:)

185 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:45:17pm

re: #173 sod

Well I guess I could say that the outlook on the long-term rating is negative. I could lower the long-term rating to 'AA' within the next two years if I see that less reduction in spending than agreed to, higher interest rates, or new fiscal pressures during the period result in a higher general government debt trajectory than I currently assume in my base case.

Why do you ignore increasing revenues? The S&P specifically dinged the Republicans for refusing to increase revenues. It's like some kind of fucked up religion with you people to avoid at all costs considering or even mentioning this one, patently obvious solution.

If you think the country should be run like a business then tell me what kind of business model completely discounts the idea of raising revenues?

186 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:45:19pm

re: #160 sod

I gotta go, I'll check back in later to see how many down dings I've got. Charles, was the get out of my yard post a dig at sod?

Ah. I see what you did there, now. I'm a little slow today.

187 blueraven  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:47:28pm

re: #137 publicityStunted

Are you still online? If so, check out the weapons-grade disingenuous derp in this thread, attributing words to you that you never even said:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Ha! Thanks for the heads up. I was away finishing off some pasta salad.

188 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:49:11pm

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

No, they don't. The President owns the economy in the public eye, for good or ill. That's how it has been and how it will be.

That's not entirely true. Polls have shown that public lays the blame for the recession on you know who: GWB. Whatever becomes of this remains to be seen. So I'm John Q. Public right? Well. "Bush gave us the recession and the Republicans refused to raise taxes on those rich bastards which led to this downgrade."

Sooner or later the right wing has to make up their mind on this S&P decision. On the one hand they're saying "this downgrade will mean nothing in the long run and in fact it's good". On the other hand they're saying "this is all Obama's fault!" So how can the S&P decision be a good thing or not that serious while at the same time trying to "blame Obama". That doesn't make sense.

189 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:50:47pm

"Yeah this S&P decision won't mean anything and in fact it might be a good thing. Still, it's all Barrack HUSSEIN Obama's fault!!11ty"

Huh?

190 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:51:16pm

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

No, they don't. The President owns the economy in the public eye, for good or ill. That's how it has been and how it will be.

That must be why public opinion polls indicate people still blames Bush and the Congressional Republicans far more than Obama for the current debacle.

191 darthstar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:51:17pm

re: #111 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Lol who told them hanging teabags from their hats was a good idea? "Teabaggers" is a nice term to describe them.

These are the same people who have those stupid wooden geese with the blue ribbons on their necks stuck on their lawns and in random places around their houses - and plague their friends with every forwarded conspiracy theory they get by email of which, because they registered with a few teabagger sites, there are many...and of course, every one ends with some kind of picture like this and an admonition of your disdain for America if you don't open-cc it to ten people and include the sender so they can add said people to their address book in the future.

192 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:51:23pm

re: #188 Gus 802

That's not entirely true. Polls have shown that public lays the blame for the recession on you know who: GWB. Whatever becomes of this remains to be seen. So I'm John Q. Public right? Well. "Bush gave us the recession and the Republicans refused to raise taxes on those rich bastards which led to this downgrade."

Sooner or later the right wing has to make up their mind on this S&P decision. On the one hand they're saying "this downgrade will mean nothing in the long run and in fact it's good". On the other hand they're saying "this is all Obama's fault!" So how can the S&P decision be a good thing or not that serious while at the same time trying to "blame Obama". That doesn't make sense.

LOOK OVER THERE! GAY PEOPLE!
/

193 darthstar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:52:28pm

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

I am angry with him for his actions after coming home. His actions in Vietnam came into question in 2004, but those questions have been answered to my satisfaction. What he said happened to him over there is what happened to him. That part I accept.

Well, I'm sure triple purple-heart and silver star veteran Senator John Kerry is grateful to have satisfied your skepticism.

194 darthstar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:53:14pm

okay...time to head out...finished up here at the club and ready to go back to the coast.

195 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:53:21pm

TGOP: "We should run the government like a business that we want to destroy. Bleed the beast, 11ty!!!"

196 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:53:28pm

Well, I guess that's one way to make a weld. If you're lazy.

197 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:54:58pm

re: #196 Slumbering Behemoth

Well, I guess that's one way to make a weld. If you're lazy.

[Video]

Neat.

198 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:55:04pm

re: #192 Varek Raith

LOOK OVER THERE! GAY PEOPLE!
/

AND NIGRAS AND MESSICANS AND MOOSLEMS! OH, MY!!!

199 Kewalo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:55:05pm

re: #133 Kid A

Your text to link...

Your text to link...

And I guess your info could have come from Malkin.

Your text to link...

Please bear with me, I'm still learning to use the gadgets.

200 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:55:31pm

re: #192 Varek Raith

I dunno. They look kind of depressed to me.

201 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:56:21pm

re: #198 moderatelyradicalliberal

AND NIGRAS AND MESSICANS AND MOOSLEMS! OH, MY!!!

THERE'S A BLACK MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE!!11ty

//

202 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:57:56pm

re: #201 Gus 802

//

Gungans walk freely down our streets!


.
What?
/

203 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:58:41pm

TPers want to destroy the economy to hurt Obama, but they don't actually want anyone to tell the truth about what they were doing and own any consequences for it. They are a wrecking crew and they are hoping that no one will ever point out the huge wrecking ball they're dragging around everywhere they go.

204 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:59:26pm

re: #197 Varek Raith

This one is neater. Inertia Friction Welding.

I didn't know people were doing that, but it makes sense.

205 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 4:59:33pm

"For good or ill the President owns the economy, so let's destroy it in the pretense that we give a shit about the debt and blame him. Both sides are the same, so vote Republican. Defense spending good, two legs bad!"

206 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:01:44pm

re: #193 darthstar

Well, I'm sure triple purple-heart and silver star veteran Senator John Kerry is grateful to have satisfied your skepticism.

Can the sarcasm, Darth. I wrote that to make things very clear about what I thought. Given the nature of blogs, if you're not very clear incorrect memes can form. So when things are contentious I strive for as much clarity as possible to make sure people know what I think.

207 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:04:37pm

re: #205 goddamnedfrank

Rule #1: Whatever Republicans accuse Democrats or the President of, they are actually doing themselves. They have accused the President and liberals of trying to destroy the economy and yet here they are doing it themselves. And despite their whining, they have admitted it already. If only we had a MSM that would report it and a Democratic party that could form a consistent, simply message about it. One of those things will have to happen for the TGOP to get the punishment from voters they so richly deserve.

208 laZardo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:05:05pm

re: #207 moderatelyradicalliberal

Rule #1: Whatever Republicans accuse Democrats or the President of, they are actually doing themselves. They have accused the President and liberals of trying to destroy the economy and yet here they are doing it themselves. And despite their whining, they have admitted it already. If only we had a MSM that would report it and a Democratic party that could form a consistent, simply message about it. One of those things will have to happen for the TGOP to get the punishment from voters they so richly deserve.

Rule #2: It's still the President's fault.

/as it were

209 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:06:12pm

re: #205 goddamnedfrank

Vote for the party that brought you flat wage earnings, an extended recession, record gasoline prices, record setting healthcare costs, the housing bubble, hurricane Katrina, destroyed overtime rules, made it more difficult to declare bankruptcy and the Great Financial Meltdown of 2008.

Oops wait a second. Bush doesn't own this even though he was the president during those times yet somehow, through magic, Obama now owns this. It's either or. Either they both own this or not. It's funny how the right tries to say "Obama owns the BP disaster" yet are quick to be defensive about the Bush administration reaction to Katrina. But yeah. Vote for the Republican Party that did such a great job from 2000-2008.

But now we will be asked to switch teams again? No wait. New angle. "But Bush really wasn't a Republican." Yeah, right.

210 blueraven  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:06:42pm

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

No, they don't. The President owns the economy in the public eye, for good or ill. That's how it has been and how it will be.

We will see. The TP made themselves pretty big targets in this. I dont think it went un-noticed.

211 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:07:03pm

re: #208 laZardo

Rule #2: It's still the President's fault.

/as it were

Everything is the President's fault, I curse him daily for causing all the static cling and cancer in the world.

212 celticdragon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:10:05pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

I'm talking about Kerry's actions after coming home, not his deeds in Vietnam. But I don't want to make this a discussion about me. Let's discuss it some other time.

I will go with you on that to a point. I do think that some of his words and actions when he came home (and that he openly talked about) did not reflect at all well on his character. I also think it is entrely fair to take that into account when considering whether to vote for him.

That being said, his comments today where entirely accurate and they should be repeated.

That being

213 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:10:43pm

Vote for Bachmann! She'll get rid of the EPA. That way we can clog the courts with law suits and get dirty water and dirty air at the same time. It's a win/win situation. Once we get rid of the EPA all of those jobs that vanished to China will magically return. And at the same time it will settle the current Euro crisis and stop all forms of cancer.

//

214 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:11:23pm

re: #212 celticdragon

I will go with you on that to a point. I do think that some of his words and actions when he came home (and that he openly talked about) did not reflect at all well on his character. I also think it is entirely fair to take that into account when considering whether to vote for him.

That being said, his comments today where entirely accurate and they should be repeated.

Thank you for that.

215 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:13:09pm

re: #210 blueraven

We will see. The TP made themselves pretty big targets in this. I dont think it went un-noticed.

Lots of pundits are talking about the Tea Party, even more than a year ago. The more the public knows of them, the less they like the TP:[Link: people-press.org...]

216 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:15:40pm

Japan's Nikkei opened 1.4% down in the opening minutes of trading.

217 Digital Display  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:17:56pm

re: #216 PhillyPretzel

Japan's Nikkei opened 1.4% down in the opening minutes of trading.

Hi Philly!
I'm not an economic...But I predict this

218 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:20:07pm

re: #216 PhillyPretzel
I did not major in economincs but the TP should not have forced a showdown over the budget.

219 celticdragon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:20:32pm

Off thread note...

It is good to back home, Lizards. I and my family were at the Rev War re-enactment at The House in The Horseshoe this weekend in North Carolina with the 84th NC Highlanders, and I was part of the honor guard last night in a Scottish wedding held just after the afternoon battle.

However, I also ended up as a heat casualty (it was pretty bloody hot, and in period 18th Century clothing...you really, really notice that), and I ended up getting pounced on by an ER nurse (one of the unit officers) and got covered in ice water towels and spoaked in cold water to get my core temp down. I knew I was starting to feel faint and I recognized I had heat exhaustion. My spouse drove us home a bit after the wedding.

Everything is fine now, but just a reminder to all to watch out in hot weather. I was pounding water all day and I watched my family like a hawk to see that they did also, but it still got to me (not that standing at attention holding a claymore sword at a 55 degree angle helped...).

220 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:20:55pm

re: #211 goddamnedfrank

Everything is the President's fault, I curse him daily for causing all the static cling and cancer in the world.

LOL! Static cling?

221 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:21:57pm

re: #218 PhillyPretzel
Sorry, it should be economics.

222 Varek Raith  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:22:04pm

re: #220 Floral Giraffe

LOL! Static cling?

Force Static Cling.
MUHAHAHAHAHA!

223 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:22:33pm

re: #218 PhillyPretzel

I did not major in economincs but the TP should not have forced a showdown over the budget.

I would have liked it better if they'd forced a shutdown but been sane enough to leave our economic faith and credit alone.

224 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:23:01pm

re: #222 Varek Raith

Force Static Cling.
MUHAHAHAHAHA!

Jedi experience static cling?

225 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:23:56pm

re: #224 Floral Giraffe
oh yes. //

226 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:26:01pm

re: #219 celticdragon

Glad you feel better! My family is trying to establish our relationship to Nathanial Chapman. He answered the call of Paul Revere and fought at the Battle of Bunker Hill. We are missing two generations in between our Chapman grandpa buried in Kansas and Nathanial. I hope we can find them!

227 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:28:51pm

Apropos of nothing, my friend Wendy's frozen hats.

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

228 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:30:48pm

re: #219 celticdragon

Off thread note...

It is good to back home, Lizards. I and my family were at the Rev War re-enactment at The House in The Horseshoe this weekend in North Carolina with the 84th NC Highlanders, and I was part of the honor guard last night in a Scottish wedding held just after the afternoon battle.

However, I also ended up as a heat casualty (it was pretty bloody hot, and in period 18th Century clothing...you really, really notice that), and I ended up getting pounced on by an ER nurse (one of the unit officers) and got covered in ice water towels and spoaked in cold water to get my core temp down. I knew I was starting to feel faint and I recognized I had heat exhaustion. My spouse drove us home a bit after the wedding.

Everything is fine now, but just a reminder to all to watch out in hot weather. I was pounding water all day and I watched my family like a hawk to see that they did also, but it still got to me (not that standing at attention holding a claymore sword at a 55 degree angle helped...).

It was colder back during the 1770s-1780s. The Little Ice Age was still in effect.

229 celticdragon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:31:32pm

re: #226 prairiefire

Glad you feel better! My family is trying to establish our relationship to Nathanial Chapman. He answered the call of Paul Revere and fought at the Battle of Bunker Hill. We are missing two generations in between our Chapman grandpa buried in Kansas and Nathanial. I hope we can find them!

Very cool! I had two ancestors at the Battle of King's Mountain ( one of the few really large engagements mostly fought by militia with rifles) and I want to find out more about them. This hobby helps bring that to life for people today, and I love that I can share history in such a visual and interesting way.

230 austin_blue  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:32:18pm

re: #224 Floral Giraffe

Jedi experience static cling?

All part of The Force.

231 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:33:22pm

re: #229 celticdragon

Re-enactors are way cool.

232 jvic  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:33:53pm

1.

Tea Party leaders wished out loud for the US to default on its debt payments, so why are they whining now when people blame them for the S&P downgrade?

The Democrats have been no prize either. IMHO the American leadership class, with honorable exceptions, is awarding itself huge rewards and delivering terrible performance. Corporate CEOs and Wall Street banks are just the most obvious examples.

2. I sympathize with the Tea Party's limited-government goals but have concerns about some (many?) participants in the movement.

That said, I expect that tax increases will be necessary to drag us out of our financial quagmire, but I want to be damn sure that spending cuts are real before I accede to raising taxes. (The "conservatives" who are warning about military cuts: where were they when Bush was laying the groundwork for the current fiasco?)

3. Sign of the times?--The NYT led off its obituary of Hugh Carey by noting he was a liberal NY governor who brought the state's spending under control and cleaned up the financial mess left by Republican Nelson Rockefeller. RIP.

While I don't follow NY politics, it is my impression that liberal Andrew Cuomo is off to a promising fiscal start. I wish him well.

4. Warren Buffett has bluntly disagreed with the S&P downgrade. I'm not in the market at the moment, but I remember this from when I was: the man is uncanny.

233 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:34:32pm

re: #219 celticdragon

Everything is fine now, but just a reminder to all to watch out in hot weather. I was pounding water all day and I watched my family like a hawk to see that they did also, but it still got to me (not that standing at attention holding a claymore sword at a 55 degree angle helped...).

Gah! Weren't you one of the ones telling me to be careful about fasting during the summer the other day? Sheesh. Glad you're okay. ;)

234 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:35:26pm

re: #229 celticdragon

Where is King's Mountain?
I have a Westfall grandfather that was born within walls of the fort against the Indians in Kingston, NY, 1650.
It's so fun and great for the kids to learn about.

235 celticdragon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:35:38pm

re: #228 Dark_Falcon

It was colder back during the 1770s-1780s. The Little Ice Age was still in effect.

Yep. Still, when you read first person accounts (the one by Joseph Plumb Martin is outstanding) you find mention of British soldiers actually being killed by heat stroke in summer campaigns, and comments about the hardship of fighting in the summer from the authors point of view.

236 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:36:01pm

re: #235 celticdragon

Wool uniforms, right?

237 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:36:05pm

re: #229 celticdragon

Very cool! I had two ancestors at the Battle of King's Mountain ( one of the few really large engagements mostly fought by militia with rifles) and I want to find out more about them. This hobby helps bring that to life for people today, and I love that I can share history in such a visual and interesting way.

You Teabaggers in tri-corner hats, you listen to Celtic Dragon over here! He knows far more about the Revolution than you do, and he can set you straight.

Not that they'd listen, of course. But it has to be said.

238 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:36:25pm

re: #232 jvic
I agree with Buffet. He is a lot more savvy than most people realize.

239 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:39:12pm

re: #236 prairiefire

Wool uniforms, right?

Yes. One of the major innovations Napoleon introduced in his army in Egypt was to issue lighter cotton uniforms. Once issued, those saved his troops a great deal of hardship.

The Union during the Civil War mostly had to use wool, as cotton grew in the areas that had seceded. This caused great problems for the troops, who hard to march in hotter conditions than their Revolutionary War forebearers.

240 celticdragon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:40:33pm

re: #233 CuriousLurker

Gah! Weren't you one of the ones telling me to be careful about fasting during the summer the other day? Sheesh. Glad you're okay. ;)

Yep. That was me. I take heat problems very seriously, since I have been a heat casualty before and I don't like being stuck in a hospital for hours while medics try to stick an IV in me, only to find my veins keep collapsing.

I was careful and I drank a lot of water, but I knew I was starting to get in trouble when the headache started and my vision went a bit funny. Several people said they could by looking at me that I was overheated. Everybody needs to know about heat injuries and when to get help.

241 celticdragon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:42:46pm

re: #234 prairiefire

Where is King's Mountain?
I have a Westfall grandfather that was born within walls of the fort against the Indians in Kingston, NY, 1650.
It's so fun and great for the kids to learn about.

Some good info here...

242 austin_blue  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:43:58pm

re: #238 PhillyPretzel

I agree with Buffet. He is a lot more savvy than most people realize.

That would explain why he is a gazillionaire and we aren't.

243 celticdragon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:45:08pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

Yes. One of the major innovations Napoleon introduced in his army in Egypt was to issue lighter cotton uniforms. Once issued, those saved his troops a great deal of hardship.

The Union during the Civil War mostly had to use wool, as cotton grew in the areas that had seceded. This caused great problems for the troops, who hard to march in hotter conditions than their Revolutionary War forebearers.

Exactly. You really didn't see another significant advace in uniforms until the Second Boer War when the Brits started using Khaki uniforms that effectvely blended into the dry grass of the veldt.

244 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:46:16pm

TP's still?
it's the mojo risin

245 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:48:34pm

re: #240 celticdragon

We really have to watch my 8 year old boy. He gets pretty sick from the heat. I hope he grows out of it.

246 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:49:29pm

re: #245 prairiefire
I work outside. I have to be careful and drink lots of water. :(

247 recusancy  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:52:53pm

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

Kerry has a point but he's still an asshole. But it was actions he took before I was born that make him an asshole in my eyes, not his words today. Those words are well within normal bounds.

You're an asshole.

248 recusancy  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:53:55pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

I'm talking about Kerry's actions after coming home, not his deeds in Vietnam. But I don't want to make this a discussion about me. Let's discuss it some other time.

If you don't want to discuss it don't bring it up.

249 celticdragon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:54:32pm

re: #247 recusancy

You're an asshole.

Knock it off. You can disagree without being disagreeable. You need to apologize.

250 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:55:00pm

re: #247 recusancy

You're an asshole.

so are you...big whoop

251 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:55:53pm

How about something mellow?

252 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 5:58:14pm

re: #243 celticdragon

Exactly. You really didn't see another significant advace in uniforms until the Second Boer War when the Brits started using Khaki uniforms that effectvely blended into the dry grass of the veldt.

Indeed. The use of Feldgrau (Field Gray) in Germany was a similar advance. France resisted such changes, till the opening month of WWI made it clear their troop's bright red pants were getting them killed.

253 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:01:32pm

More help from congressional republicans....
Ryan Downplays Prospects of New Deficit Committee
Begging for further downgrades.

254 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:03:00pm

OT: I just posted a page on the SEALs who were killed. [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

255 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:04:21pm

re: #254 PhillyPretzel

Retweeted.

256 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:05:58pm

re: #253 Killgore Trout
I wonder if Warren Buffett is willing to teach some silly folks from the House and Senate about money. Nah, it would not work. Darn.

257 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:06:14pm

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

No, they don't. The President owns the economy in the public eye, for good or ill. That's how it has been and how it will be.

Republicans just put their stamp of approval on downgrading the US credit rating for the first time in our history and derailing the economic recovery. Suck it up.

258 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:06:26pm

re: #255 Rightwingconspirator
Thank you.

259 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:07:05pm

Second night of rioting in North London. It's spread to more lower income areas.
Holloway, Hackney, Walthamstow, Brixton, Dalston, Wood Green, Tottenham - all looted or on fire to some degree.

NAtional media black out on new television coverage - or the scenes are just to rough for news crews to enter.

260 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:08:23pm
261 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:09:12pm

re: #260 Obdicut

Whoah.

Image: article-2023254-0D54EE5100000578-693_964x573.jpg

Ground zero right there for the riots last night.

262 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:09:40pm

re: #260 Obdicut

Whoah.

Image: article-2023254-0D54EE5100000578-693_964x573.jpg

Oh My God. That is a horror.

263 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:10:49pm

re: #259 wozzablog

Stay safe!!!!! A mob is a dangerous, unpredictable thing. HuffPostUK:[Link: www.huffingtonpost.co.uk...]

264 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:11:19pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

People used to live above that store on the ground floor.

ignore the commentary and comments, but a good picture resource -

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

265 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:11:35pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

Well, it's only a building. A number of police officers have gotten hurt, too.

Those rioting aren't doing a damn thing to help the guy's family, the one who got shot, get answers.

Idiots.

266 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:12:09pm

re: #253 Killgore Trout

More help from congressional republicans...
Ryan Downplays Prospects of New Deficit Committee
Begging for further downgrades.

What's Paul Ryan supposed to do? Lie? Mouth pleasantries? He doesn't think the Dems will move enough on entitlements. That's not a positive outlook but its not an unrealistic one.

267 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:12:27pm

re: #261 wozzablog

Ground zero right there for the riots last night.

re: #263 prairiefire

Stay safe!!! A mob is a dangerous, unpredictable thing. HuffPostUK:[Link: www.huffingtonpost.co.uk...]

I'll second that. Please stay safe!

268 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:12:46pm

re: #265 Obdicut

Well, it's only a building. A number of police officers have gotten hurt, too.

Those rioting aren't doing a damn thing to help the guy's family, the one who got shot, get answers.

Idiots.

A building people lived in and who's dearest possessions have now gone.

Police can't rule out there are no bodies in other burned out shells.

269 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:13:30pm

re: #266 Dark_Falcon

What's Paul Ryan supposed to do? Lie?

Sure. He's used to it, after all-- his economic plan was a hash of lies, and he lied about it.

Very few people in the GOP seemed to care about that, though.

270 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:13:53pm

re: #267 CuriousLurker

re: #263 prairiefire

I'll second that. Please stay safe!

I'm staying in my quiet little enclave :p

no fear of me wading out with my camera like a hero.

271 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:14:53pm

re: #268 wozzablog

It's always surreal to me to see rioters burning down buildings in their own neighborhood. Do they really want to walk by that burnt-out-shell for a year?

Such a mess.

I hope nobody died in the fires. If they did... fuckers riot to protest the killing of someone, and wind up killing people? Duh.

272 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:15:41pm

re: #271 Obdicut

It went past being a protest about the young man about five minutes after the first fire was lit.

273 albusteve  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:16:22pm

re: #269 Obdicut

Sure. He's used to it, after all-- his economic plan was a hash of lies, and he lied about it.

Very few people in the GOP seemed to care about that, though.

they all lie...only a fool would assume otherwise...if not now, then down the line somewhere

274 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:16:35pm

re: #266 Dark_Falcon

What's Paul Ryan supposed to do? Lie? Mouth pleasantries? He doesn't think the Dems will move enough on entitlements. That's not a positive outlook but its not an unrealistic one.

By refusing to even mention revenue increases both you and Ryan are proving exactly what the S&P report said about Republicans.

275 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:16:38pm

re: #269 Obdicut

Sure. He's used to it, after all-- his economic plan was a hash of lies, and he lied about it.

Very few people in the GOP seemed to care about that, though.

Of course not. I'm sure in imaginary GOP world that Ryan doesn't represent people on entitlements. Maybe he does or maybe he doesn't. One thing is for sure is that GOP won't move on funding entitlements since they have to keep the rich fat cats fed at the trough.

276 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:18:10pm

re: #270 wozzablog

I'm staying in my quiet little enclave :p

no fear of me wading out with my camera like a hero.

Mother w/son your age <— worrier ;)

277 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:18:10pm

re: #272 wozzablog

It went past being a protest about the young man about five minutes after the first fire was lit.

It reminds me of the Rodney King riots in LA back in 1992.

278 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:18:13pm

Blech. Not again. California should ban charcoal starter. The damn stuff is disgusting.

279 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:21:17pm

re: #271 Obdicut

It's always surreal to me to see rioters burning down buildings in their own neighborhood. Do they really want to walk by that burnt-out-shell for a year?

Such a mess.

I hope nobody died in the fires. If they did... fuckers riot to protest the killing of someone, and wind up killing people? Duh.


The Rodney King riots did exactly that. People do not learn.

280 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:22:11pm

Good Night to my fellow Lizards.

281 Kragar  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:22:51pm

And now... WTF Japan?

282 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:25:01pm

re: #277 Dark_Falcon

It reminds me of the Rodney King riots in LA back in 1992.

It makes even less sense than the LAPD trial / Simi Valley jury caused riots, Duggan was armed and shot at an officer.

283 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:25:16pm

re: #279 Rightwingconspirator

The Rodney King riots did exactly that. People do not learn.

It's when people don't really feel that their community is theirs, anyway. I was talking to a friend of mine in Oakland about it a long time ago-- he's a community organizer who tries to prevent exactly this kind of shit. The main symptom he's found is that the people in the community don't really feel it's theirs.

Solutions for this kind of thing are hard as hell.

284 Gus  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:26:01pm

re: #279 Rightwingconspirator

The Rodney King riots did exactly that. People do not learn.

I'm sure there will be less damage then there was in Baghdad.

//Snark

285 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:26:34pm

re: #282 goddamnedfrank

It makes even less sense than the LAPD trial / Simi Valley jury caused riots, Duggan was armed and shot at an officer.

Nobody knows who shot at the officer yet.

286 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:26:43pm

re: #271 Obdicut

It's always surreal to me to see rioters burning down buildings in their own neighborhood. Do they really want to walk by that burnt-out-shell for a year?

Such a mess.

I hope nobody died in the fires. If they did... fuckers riot to protest the killing of someone, and wind up killing people? Duh.

Sorry should have put this in 279

Wiki
Los Angeles Riots of 1992

Koreatown experienced the hardest crime and destruction of the ordeal. Hundreds of Korean owned businesses were looted, damaged or burnt down and an unknown number of Koreans physically attacked. By the second day of rioting, the LAPD and County Sheriff had been overpowered by the number of rioters forcing the departments to pull all units from patrol. As violent rioters next turned its attention to firefighters, the LAFD also recalled their teams. This left unchecked crime and fires which quickly expanded. The Korean American community, seeing the police force's abandonment of Koreatown, organized gun-wielding groups to protect businesses and area residents. Open gun battles were televised live as shopkeepers defended their business from the crowds of violent looters.[6]
US Marines patrol Crenshaw

Order was restored on the sixth day of rioting after a mandatory curfew, lock down, and state of emergency had been declared. At its peak, the deployment of the National Guard, brigades from the 7th Infantry Division based at Fort Ord, Marines from the 1st Marine Division based at Camp Pendleton, US Coast Guard from the 11th District, federal officers including FBI, Federal Protective Service, Immigration & Customs Enforcement and Justice Department assisted the LAPD, Los Angeles County Sheriff, California Highway Patrol, Los Angeles Fire Department, and the police departments of Bell, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, Inglewood, Long Beach, Maywood, Vernon, Torrance, Culver City, Gardena and Hawthorne.

By the time the riots ended, 54 lives were lost, 2,383 people injured (228 critical), 12,111 arrested, 7,001 fires set, 1,400 structures destroyed, 3,100 businesses looted, and an estimated material damage of $1 billion.[7] Over 15,000 military and federal officers with 2,000 military Humvees, 20 M1A1 Abrams tanks, 5 AH-64 Apache helicopters, and the visual presence of F-15 fighters complimented the combined police presence of 16,000 officers.

In the aftermath of the riots a large percentage of Korean residents moved to Orange County and the San Fernando Valley. Many business owners did not reopen or repair their businesses, leaving the area with block after block of burnt down or abandoned buildings. Property values dipped below the notoriously poor areas of East Los Angeles and South Central.

287 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:27:20pm

re: #282 goddamnedfrank

It makes even less sense than the LAPD trial / Simi Valley jury caused riots, Duggan was armed and shot at an officer.

May not have fired the shots - new info emerging. But was in possession of a fire arm, was known to the gang units and an attempted arrest was under way.

288 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:29:47pm

re: #283 Obdicut

Hundreds homeless, hundreds now unemployed - there maybe fatalities.

All in peoples own neighbourhoods This is what londoners are trying so hard to understand.

We came through 7/7 - we've been bombed so many times in the last 40 years we lose count - but it comes to this.

Will repost my facebook message from earlier below.

289 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:30:06pm

re: #282 goddamnedfrank

It makes even less sense than the LAPD trial / Simi Valley jury caused riots, Duggan was armed and shot at an officer.

True. The actual trigger event looks like a clean shooting. In Chicago or New York, it wouldn't even be an issue.

290 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:31:05pm

From my fb earlier -

The inner city youth of London have, for the last decade, been dividing and subdividing, fighting each other over turf and getting sucked in to internalising the issues facing their community. The old lefty in me says that bullshit should end and they should unite against the state. I fear tho, that instead, they will double down on each other now the turf is less valuable.
Spare also a thought for the newly homeless and unemployed today.

291 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:32:58pm

re: #289 Dark_Falcon

True. The actual trigger event looks like a clean shooting. In Chicago or New York, it wouldn't even be an issue.

Anger over the police handling of his death - maybe not entirely the death itself - were the spark.
Young people in london have been simmering for a while - across all races. They have an ill defined anger and no proper outlet.

292 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:33:54pm

re: #276 CuriousLurker

Mother w/son your age <— worrier ;)

(hug)

293 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:34:28pm

re: #290 wozzablog

From my fb earlier -

The inner city youth of London have, for the last decade, been dividing and subdividing, fighting each other over turf and getting sucked in to internalising the issues facing their community. The old lefty in me says that bullshit should end and they should unite against the state. I fear tho, that instead, they will double down on each other now the turf is less valuable.
Spare also a thought for the newly homeless and unemployed today.

What the Hell? Why on earth should they do that? What good would it do? If they wish to unite, do so in business organizations. They should seek ways to form productive enterprises, since private enterprise and gainful employment are the ways out of poverty.

294 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:36:26pm

re: #287 wozzablog

May not have fired the shots - new info emerging. But was in possession of a fire arm, was known to the gang units and an attempted arrest was under way.

Okay, but King was unarmed and beaten over a long span of time, on video, and the community waited over a year for a jury trial and miscarriage of justice before everything completely went shit. Compared to LA in 1992 this is a completely knee jerk response, the cause almost seems more like an excuse for a population already on a hair trigger, indicative of a frightening zeitgeist.

295 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:38:47pm

Okay, wait you guys—don't go upstairs yet becuase it's too early for me to go OT there... hang on a sec....

296 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:38:59pm

re: #266 Dark_Falcon

What's Paul Ryan supposed to do? Lie? Mouth pleasantries? He doesn't think the Dems will move enough on entitlements. That's not a positive outlook but its not an unrealistic one.

He could learn that Econ 101 == Ann Rand's fantasy world.

He could understand that the single biggest good thing that could happen would be to end the Bush Tax Cut Disaster.

He could understand that the only problem with the stimulus was that it was far too small.

But none of those things will happen because he refuses to see what is happening in the real world.

297 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:39:10pm

re: #295 CuriousLurker

Okay, wait you guys—don't go upstairs yet becuase it's too early for me to go OT there... hang on a sec...

I'm waiting, CL.

298 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:40:16pm

Pamela Geller’s New Book Is a Work of Love, not Hate

It's satire. The whole site is nuts...LMAO.

299 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:43:22pm

re: #298 CuriousLurker

Pamela Geller’s New Book Is a Work of Love, not Hate

It's satire. The whole site is nuts...LMAO.

It's only Satire till some wingnut starts saying it, and they will.

300 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:46:15pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

It's only Satire till some wingnut starts saying it, and they will.

They already did, yesterday. I believe it was PJM. Charles posted a link to it.

301 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:48:55pm

re: #293 Dark_Falcon

What the Hell? Why on earth should they do that? What good would it do? If they wish to unite, do so in business organizations. They should seek ways to form productive enterprises, since private enterprise and gainful employment are the ways out of poverty.

The state has critically underfunded these areas over the last three decades. Housing, infrastructure, training, education - business will not provide those things to these communities.
I'm not advocating acting violently against the state - but the kids who are fighting each other need to realise that the enemy to their progress isn't each other, it's the lack of jobs, the lack of housing, the lack of infrastructure, the death of a "job for life", the undervaluing by successive governments of public transport careers, and careers in the postal service - traditional routes out of poverty are being and have been eroded by the state for the last 30 years.

302 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:50:26pm

re: #266 Dark_Falcon

What's Paul Ryan supposed to do? Lie? Mouth pleasantries? He doesn't think the Dems will move enough on entitlements. That's not a positive outlook but its not an unrealistic one.

He's supposed to help the country.
/fail

303 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:56:29pm

re: #301 wozzablog

The state has critically underfunded these areas over the last three decades. Housing, infrastructure, training, education - business will not provide those things to these communities.
I'm not advocating acting violently against the state - but the kids who are fighting each other need to realise that the enemy to their progress isn't each other, it's the lack of jobs, the lack of housing, the lack of infrastructure, the death of a "job for life", the undervaluing by successive governments of public transport careers, and careers in the postal service - traditional routes out of poverty are being and have been eroded by the state for the last 30 years.

Job for life, Hell! That's dead in most places. The world has changed and that change simply has to be accepted. The postal service too, is becoming outdated. They can't get jobs there because those jobs are no longer needed. They need to find skills that are economically productive, not be given jobs that are obsolete.

304 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 6:57:28pm

re: #296 wlewisiii

my not equals sign didn't work. That's 101 not equals Rand.

305 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:01:40pm

re: #236 prairiefire

Wool uniforms, right?

Scratchy in the heat!

306 Kewalo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:01:41pm

re: #283 Obdicut

I really feel like an idiot here, but I just have no idea what has been causing the people in the UK to riot. Is it really as simple as not feeling like the community is no longer "home?" Not simple in the end of course.

Anyone that can lead or direct me to a place I could read more about it...I'd be very appreciative. I kind of feel like I'm in the Twilight zone.

307 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:03:41pm

re: #303 Dark_Falcon

Job for life, Hell! That's dead in most places. The world has changed and that change simply has to be accepted. The postal service too, is becoming outdated. They can't get jobs there because those jobs are no longer needed. They need to find skills that are economically productive, not be given jobs that are obsolete.

Am talking about going 30 years back when the government decided to sell off and start dismantling the postal service, the public transport services and many other sectors that were stable employers for young people.
They were given over to the private sector who slashed pay and benefits, reduced levels of service and saw employees as disposable rather than as valuable capital.

Many industries are being held together by staff on temp cntracts or short term deals - they won't turn them into full time positions because they would need to pay extra.

The economic model is broken. Short termism is the wrong way.

And coming forward to today - you can not grown private enterprise without capital - these kids have access to none. There is no market for products the economy is stagnant, new stuff is not being bought.

308 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:04:06pm

re: #306 Kewalo

I really feel like an idiot here, but I just have no idea what has been causing the people in the UK to riot. Is it really as simple as not feeling like the community is no longer "home?" Not simple in the end of course.

Anyone that can lead or direct me to a place I could read more about it...I'd be very appreciative. I kind of feel like I'm in the Twilight zone.

Nihilism among the youth.

309 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:04:27pm

re: #303 Dark_Falcon

Job for life, Hell! That's dead in most places. The world has changed and that change simply has to be accepted. The postal service too, is becoming outdated. They can't get jobs there because those jobs are no longer needed. They need to find skills that are economically productive, not be given jobs that are obsolete.

Note that wozzablog also said:

traditional routes out of poverty are being and have been eroded by the state for the last 30 year

It's not so easy to "find skills". Do you have any idea what it's like to live in poverty, much less grow up in it? No one enjoys being poor & underprivileged, but many don't have a clue how to escape. That traditional routes have been eroded makes it doubly hard.

310 Kewalo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:17:43pm

re: #294 goddamnedfrank

This may be and I have no way of really understanding. But in 1965 I lived in Central CA and my mother lived in LA. To go visit her I had to take the Greyhound (no car) and since the Greyhound office was closed in her area I had to walk to an all night diner to wait for her. I think without a doubt that was the scariest walk I ever took. So, there I was about 4 or 5 in the morning, clutching my son and praying I wouldn't get shot.

It may be, looking back, that the black community had just had enough.

But who the hell knows. I just feel thankful that we ended up OK.

311 Kewalo  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:28:22pm

re: #308 wozzablog

Thanks Wozza. I'm not sure exactly what you mean. But it seems to me that if I can exchange the word nihilism with despair it kind of makes sense to me.

312 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:40:46pm

re: #311 Kewalo

Thanks Wozza. I'm not sure exactly what you mean. But it seems to me that if I can exchange the word nihilism with despair it kind of makes sense to me.

It's not despair.
People in despiar do not go for 42" plasma teevees and armani jeans.

from the wiki


Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value

There is no meaning in these peoples lives outside of pursuit of goods and services.

313 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:45:46pm

re: #307 wozzablog

Am talking about going 30 years back when the government decided to sell off and start dismantling the postal service, the public transport services and many other sectors that were stable employers for young people.
They were given over to the private sector who slashed pay and benefits, reduced levels of service and saw employees as disposable rather than as valuable capital.

Many industries are being held together by staff on temp cntracts or short term deals - they won't turn them into full time positions because they would need to pay extra.

The economic model is broken. Short termism is the wrong way.

And coming forward to today - you can not grown private enterprise without capital - these kids have access to none. There is no market for products the economy is stagnant, new stuff is not being bought.

Then there's nothing to do but beat them down till things start going up again. Britain can't go back to the failures of the 1970's, neither can the US. It's either Free Market or bust. To quote Lady Thatcher "There is no alternative."

314 HappyBenghazi  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:46:00pm

Tea Partiers are such whiners. They want to call everyone to the left of them a socialist and accuse the president and liberals of wanting to destory the country but the minute a Democrat or liberal fights back, tehy get all pissy. Bunch of babeis.

315 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 7:56:49pm

re: #313 Dark_Falcon

Then there's nothing to do but beat them down till things start going up again. Britain can't go back to the failures of the 1970's, neither can the US. It's either Free Market or bust. To quote Lady Thatcher "There is no alternative."

We will have to agree to differ. The free market does not work. We've had this debate before - the countries with mixed economies have lower unemployment rates on average then the USA, higher life expectancies and average wages.

316 sod  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:07:10pm

re: #185 goddamnedfrank

Why do you ignore increasing revenues? The S&P specifically dinged the Republicans for refusing to increase revenues. It's like some kind of fucked up religion with you people to avoid at all costs considering or even mentioning this one, patently obvious solution.

If you think the country should be run like a business then tell me what kind of business model completely discounts the idea of raising revenues?

I know this thread has moved on, but for the record, you were apparently lumping me in with "you people" and since the crowd here seemed to like your comment I just wanted to point out this comment I made advocating increasing taxes:

Completely OT, but, I was thinking today that Republicans should drop the spending cut angle completely, leave spending levels at what they are and propose raising personal income taxes to whatever levels would be required to fully fund the budget with absolutely no more borrowing.

I wonder what those tax brackets would look like?

Link

I was serious. Tax rates like that would probably make even you sit up and take notice.

317 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:14:09pm

re: #290 wozzablog

thomaslite - show yourself broham. Atleast Dark took me up on substance......without a downding.

318 ThomasLite  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:21:04pm

re: #317 wozzablog

thomaslite - show yourself broham. Atleast Dark took me up on substance...without a downding.


with pleasure.

The old lefty in me says that bullshit should end and they should unite against the state.


that's a certain downding in my book.
I could have replied, arguing that they should take up something productive instead. DF already did so. all that was left for me is downding some idiot anarchist comment like that, really.

I do like how you refer to yourself as "old left"; it's that very "old left" anti-everything-existing-or-god-forbid-productive attitude I'm extremely tired of.
rational, progressive (liberal) lefties? I can get along with those just fine. this kind of anti-establishment bull***? no thanks.

so that's what you got the downding for.
satisfied? :)

319 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:28:21pm

re: #318 ThomasLite

And i proceeded to rationalise my comment over several paragraphs by saying i was not advocating violence against the state.

I'm not an anarchist, btw.

The softleft and right wing of the left have done as much if not more to cause the unrest in the UK.

320 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:29:25pm

re: #315 wozzablog

Thomaslite - really? for that one? - which can be backed up with actual real facts........and is an arguable premise

321 ThomasLite  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:39:21pm

re: #319 wozzablog

And i proceeded to rationalise my comment over several paragraphs by saying i was not advocating violence against the state.

I'm not an anarchist, btw.

The softleft and right wing of the left have done as much if not more to cause the unrest in the UK.

still the same old blame-it-on-everyone-else mentality I was talking about. not retracting that downding, no sir.

as to 315, well, I might have gotten a bit too touchy to your posts by the time I got there, so it might be a bit disproportional. still, I'd like to explain.

there's nothing wrong with "big" government providing relatively many jobs, which might have been handled privately otherwise.
however, the assertion that privatisation "does not work" is a knee-jerk on your part, which gets a downding here, simply because it's not true.
badly done privatisation "does not work". improper privatisation "does not work. well-handled privatisation, however, can be a very good thing. Healthcare over here (the Netherlands) has benefited greatly from greater independence from government. the postal service has modernized substantially since it was privatized and, some years later, had its frikkin' monopoly janked. public transportation has actually improved (still not great, but hey. at least it's getting better). (and you should see how much better care we now have for the elderly in private, tailored institutions, at no extra cost!)
so when useful government services can be handled privately, with sufficient regulation of course, it can be a boon.
now that kind of job will be there, privately or from government agencies. does not really matter. and creating jobs in sectors where there wouldn't otherwise be any, well, that's usually a black hole for taxpayers' money.

oh and to get back to 319: never thought you were an anarchist. that "always blame someone else for your own misfortune instead of just working on yourself" mentality is more widespread, I know. sadly. still, not an ounce of respect for that. no disrespect towards you as a person, you seem pretty okay, as long as you don't get into politics ;)

//going to bed now.

322 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:48:12pm

re: #321 ThomasLite

When entire areas are neglected for decades the people there who have no access to chances for betterment - via employment, training or business starting capital will tend to get a might tetchy.

However - do not for a moment believe that i think the people stealing goods tonight don't have personal responsibility for their actions.

I went to the same school as many of them in Tottenham, i have mutual facebook friends with the man killed by police - he chose to carry a gun just as these people are choosing to carry televisions out of stores and then burning them.Those are irrevocable choices.

What i am getting that is that in London a gang culture has emerged over the last decade - and perhaps i didn't explain that bit - where the young people are choosing to see each other and rival districts as their enemy - the wall thats stopping them from improvement.
These kids should be turning that anger and hatred into productive change to the state mechanisms which would provide infrastructure, housing, youth groups, structured learning of trades - etc etc etc.

323 ThomasLite  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 8:58:08pm

re: #322 wozzablog

When entire areas are neglected for decades the people there who have no access to chances for betterment - via employment, training or business starting capital will tend to get a might tetchy.

However - do not for a moment believe that i think the people stealing goods tonight don't have personal responsibility for their actions.

I went to the same school as many of them in Tottenham, i have mutual facebook friends with the man killed by police - he chose to carry a gun just as these people are choosing to carry televisions out of stores and then burning them.Those are irrevocable choices.

What i am getting that is that in London a gang culture has emerged over the last decade - and perhaps i didn't explain that bit - where the young people are choosing to see each other and rival districts as their enemy - the wall thats stopping them from improvement.
These kids should be turning that anger and hatred into productive change to the state mechanisms which would provide infrastructure, housing, youth groups, structured learning of trades - etc etc etc.

ah. just caught the quote before turning off the PC.

and perhaps i didn't explain that bit


uuh, no. not really.

into productive change to the state mechanisms


aand there we go again. how about some productive change towards themselves, for a start? sorry, I'm not for one second going to believe that in the UK it would be impossible to get a basic job and get some part-time education on the side.
sorry man, I've heard that same argument often enough down here, and I know for sure it's not hard or expensive to actually get some adults' education around here. it takes some spirit, though.
and that's the problem. as long as you're blaming others, you're not going to be focusing on yourself.
breaking down a gang culture: great! but doing that by giving them something else to hate improves nothing.

However - do not for a moment believe that i think the people stealing goods tonight don't have personal responsibility for their actions.


just to be clear: I never said or thought that :)

324 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 7, 2011 9:38:14pm

re: #323 ThomasLite

Mate. I have qualifications - jobs are not there outside of specialist areas at the moment - the number of "general" employment opportunities is through the floor. I applied for a basic admin post a couple of months back and they closed it after 400+ applications.
There are almost 3,000,000 unemployed people in the Uk and approximately 500,000 advertised vacancies - mostly in specifically qualified areas.

Oh, for goodness sake man, of course i believe in people improveing themselves - what do you think it would take for the kind of change in attitudes i favour to come about?. It takes a realisation that what they are doing is wrong and that efforts can be more productively spent. That IS self improvement.

The training courses for people to improve their skills to get into one of the 500,000 jobs are not there, and even if people are being trained up to be security guards - firms will not hire newly qualified people. An overall approach is required - and the "bootstraps" won't cut it.

325 JDRhoades  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 5:12:25am

And of course the loudest whiners are the very same people who've been saying "Obama recession" for two years even thought it started under Bush.

326 lostlakehiker  Mon, Aug 8, 2011 7:21:41am

re: #15 Stanley Sea

n

Oh, we still have Monday. The markets are going to react.

USA USA USA!

Traitors if you are against a baseless war? YEAH. Fuck the American economy? You are such assholes.

It's one thing to be against the war. It's another thing to give false "testimony" before a foreign "court". There's something primally wrong about bearing false witness against an innocent.

It's this whole thing I bring up all the time. Just because you're right about some issue doesn't make it right to try to prevail by "any means necessary".


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